# Great Singers with unpleasant voices



## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

Hi!
I'd like to know what people think about great singers from the present and past who made it in spite of ugly or at least not beautiful basic timbres - and perhaps also about the not so greats that pop up in spite of this. I propose to beguin by skipping the classic example: la Divina.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

antoniolopes said:


> Hi!
> I'd like to know what people think about great singers from the present and past who made it in spite of ugly or at least not beautiful basic timbres - and perhaps also about the not so greats that pop up in spite of this. I propose to beguin by skipping the classic example: la Divina.


I'd don a particularly strong tin helmet if I were you... 

I'm no aficionado of the operatic voice, but I've got a Sutherland recording of Maria Stuarda where the role of Elizabeth I is sung by Huguette Tourangeau - I don't know if she adapted her voice to suit the capricious and tetchy side of the English monarch or whether she sang like this all the time but she sounds too dark and stentorian for my liking, at least on this recording.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Since I brought up Sherrill Milnes the other day, I'll suggest his voice. 

He is one of my favorite singers; I think he is the perfect Verdian baritone but, strangely, I wasn't ever in love with the instrument itself.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Rysanek who makes up in complete commitment to her roles what she lacks in beautiful sound.
Magda Olivero, my very favorite singer, proves that one doesn't have to have a gorgeous sound to be an exemplary singer and creator of roles.
Gobbi may have a gruffness to his sound but what he lacks there he makes up for in magnificent presence and understanding of roles.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Rysanek who makes up in complete commitment to her roles what she lacks in beautiful sound.
> Magda Olivero, my very favorite singer, proves that one doesn't have to have a gorgeous sound to be an exemplary singer and creator of roles.
> Gobbi may have a gruffness to his sound but what he lacks there he makes up for in magnificent presence and understanding of roles.


Huh. I find the inclusion of Rysanek and Gobbi in this discussion semi lunatic. I guess it just goes to show how different voices affect listeners differently.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Admiral said:


> Since I brought up Sherrill Milnes the other day, I'll suggest his voice.
> 
> He is one of my favorite singers; I think he is the perfect Verdian baritone but, strangely, I wasn't ever in love with the instrument itself.


Personally, I love his sound and think it was beautiful, but then I do like voices that tend toward the "steely" category. I could understand, though, if someone wants a darker, more purely lyrical sound a la Robert Merrill or Dmitri Hvorostovsky. But I think Milnes' voice had an excellent balance of softness and steel.

By the way, thanks for wording your post the way you did. Many people would have just said, "Milnes (or whomever) had an unattractive voice," and left it at that, without making it clear that it's simply an opinion.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I can't think of a single big-name opera singer whom I think has an "unpleasant" voice. To me the only unpleasant voice is one that's in dire technical straits. Beyond that, I don't spend my time comparing singers' voices in terms of beauty. It's just something I've never done.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Rysanek who makes up in complete commitment to her roles what she lacks in beautiful sound.
> Magda Olivero, my very favorite singer, proves that one doesn't have to have a gorgeous sound to be an exemplary singer and creator of roles.
> Gobbi may have a gruffness to his sound but what he lacks there he makes up for in magnificent presence and understanding of roles.


Oh, I think Gobbi's _timbre_ was lovely. It's the _way_ he sang that I often don't care for -- that snarling expression and the way he approached his loud high notes.

I think you have to differentiate between a singer's _basic tone or timbre_ and _the way he or she is choosing to sing._ Often Gobbi did sound too "gruff" -- that is, villainous or nasty -- for my taste, yet I feel the only place where the actual _timbre_ got unattractive was on those loud, high notes. In the slow part of Nabucco's duet with Abagaille on the complete recording Gobbi made, I don't think anyone would for a moment think Gobbi's tone sounds "gruff." Even when he sang Scarpia, I don't hear that any gruffness intruded on the _core _of the sound; it was just his mode of expression that was gruff.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Oh, I think Gobbi's _timbre_ was lovely. It's the _way_ he sang that I often don't care for -- that snarling expression and the way he approached his loud high notes.
> 
> I think you have to differentiate between a singer's _basic tone or timbre_ and _the way he or she is choosing to sing._ Often Gobbi did sound too "gruff" -- that is, villainous or nasty -- for my taste, yet I feel the only place where the actual _timbre_ got unattractive was on those loud, high notes. In the slow part of Nabucco's duet with Abagaille on the complete recording Gobbi made, I don't think anyone would for a moment think Gobbi's tone sounds "gruff." Even when he sang Scarpia, I don't hear that any gruffness intruded on the _core _of the sound; it was just his mode of expression that was gruff.


Yes, I do agree. Perhaps that is what I was thinking when I said that. That seems to make sense to me. Whatever -- it just wasn't, speaking of baritones only, Bastianini or Merrill or Hvorostovsky).)


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> Oh, I think Gobbi's _timbre_ was lovely. It's the _way_ he sang that I often don't care for -- that snarling expression and the way he approached his loud high notes.
> 
> I think you have to differentiate between a singer's _basic tone or timbre_ and _the way he or she is choosing to sing._ Often Gobbi did sound too "gruff" -- that is, villainous or nasty -- for my taste, yet I feel the only place where the actual _timbre_ got unattractive was on those loud, high notes. In the slow part of Nabucco's duet with Abagaille on the complete recording Gobbi made, I don't think anyone would for a moment think Gobbi's tone sounds "gruff." Even when he sang Scarpia, I don't hear that any gruffness intruded on the _core _of the sound; it was just his mode of expression that was gruff.


Oh, ok, I can understand that. I'd have preferred less barking and shouting myself too, but Gobbi's instrument is quite pleasant.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

One voice that some apparently dislike but I think is wonderful is that of the late Licia Albanese.

Her _Manon Lescaut_ with Jussi Björling is unmatched.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> I'd don a particularly strong tin helmet if I were you...
> 
> I'm no aficionado of the operatic voice, but I've got a Sutherland recording of Maria Stuarda where the role of Elizabeth I is sung by Huguette Tourangeau - I don't know if she adapted her voice to suit the capricious and tetchy side of the English monarch or whether she sang like this all the time but she sounds too dark and stentorian for my liking, at least on this recording.


she sang like that all the time. even her Norma sounds like a stentorian British monarch (honestly, that's one of the things I like about her voice. so heroic, dignified, powerful yet elegant)


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

excellent singers whose timbres I lack appreciation for are
1) Enrico Caruso
2) Giuseppe di Stefano
3) Beverly Sills
4) Renata Tebaldi
5) Placido Domingo


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## Sir Redcrosse (Aug 30, 2015)

I'm fairly sure she doesn't count as an "opera singer" because she mostly deals in musicals, but due to my beloved DVD of _Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny_ I'll throw Patti LuPone in there. Love her to death and love her bizarre voice, but some people don't.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> I'd don a particularly strong tin helmet if I were you...
> 
> I'm no aficionado of the operatic voice, but I've got a Sutherland recording of Maria Stuarda where the role of Elizabeth I is sung by Huguette Tourangeau - I don't know if she adapted her voice to suit the capricious and tetchy side of the English monarch or whether she sang like this all the time but she sounds too dark and stentorian for my liking, at least on this recording.


I still can't figure out if you mean Sutherland or Tourangeau?
Please explain?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Pugg said:


> I still can't figure out if you mean Sutherland or Tourangeau?
> Please explain?


I was referring to HT, Pugg. Joan Sutherland shines even if the plot somewhat incorrectly portrays Mary as a Joan of Arc-like paragon of virtue and a totally innocent victim of political treachery.

However, I would like to point out that I would never call Tourangeau a bad singer just because I'm not keen on how she sounds.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Great singer, no doubt, but I can't listen to his Tristan no matter what. Jon Vickers.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> I was referring to HT, Pugg. Joan Sutherland shines even if the plot somewhat incorrectly portrays Mary as a Joan of Arc-like paragon of virtue and a totally innocent victim of political treachery.
> 
> However, I would like to point out that I would never call Tourangeau a bad singer just because I'm not keen on how she sounds.


Thanks for your reply, now I do understand your answer better.
I do have a solo L.P from Tourangeau , it's nice but cant' get true the whole record at once. 
Bit exhausting


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Licia Albanese (bless her!) always sounded like a sweet little old lady voice to me. What she gave with her acting ability helped make up for some deficits voice-wise.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> excellent singers whose timbres I lack appreciation for are
> 1) Enrico Caruso
> 2) Giuseppe di Stefano
> 3) Beverly Sills
> ...


This has to be one of the most bizarre posts I have ever read on this website, each one of these voices rising above the majority.
(Just my own opinion, of course)


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Gwyneth Jones was too shrill for my taste.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Agree about Gwyneth Jones, far from my favourite Wagnerian soprano. But she redeemed herself in that movie about an old folks' home for musicians (consults IMDB) Quartet, which I am faintly ashamed to say I really enjoyed.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Agree about Gwyneth Jones, far from my favourite Wagnerian soprano. But she redeemed herself in that movie about an old folks' home for musicians (consults IMDB) Quartet, which I am faintly ashamed to say I really enjoyed.


Why be faintly ashamed that you enjoyed it?
It was whimsical and charming and simply wonderful. (My opinion, of course!) )


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> excellent singers whose timbres I lack appreciation for are
> 1) Enrico Caruso
> 2) Giuseppe di Stefano
> 3) Beverly Sills
> ...


Good grief! Who on earth do you appreciate then?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The only singer I can think of was Gerhard Stoltz who was a character tenor. To see some of the singers named as ump,easant (eg Tebaldi who was famed for her beautiful voice) seems ludicrous. And to name Callas shows a huge lack of appreciation as to what her voice was like before her vocal problems set n. Listen to her Gilda with Serafin and you will hear a beautiful voice.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Good grief! Who on earth do you appreciate then?


1) *Joan Sutherland*
2) Martina Arroyo
3) Samuel Ramey
4) Elena Obraztsova
5) Franco Corelli
6) Maria Callas
7) Nicolai Kondtratyuk
8) Leontyne Price
9) Marisa Galvany
10) Joyce di Donato
11) Edda Moser
12) Sherrill Milnes
...........I could go on =P


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Theo Adam, Otto Wiener


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 4) Elena Obraztsova


One of the few singers I'd put in the category of Great Singers with Unpleasant Voices, though I'm not sure I'd call her "great" anyway.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Licia Albanese (bless her!) always sounded like a sweet little old lady voice to me. What she gave with her acting ability helped make up for some deficits voice-wise.


That's interesting, because the thing I don't care for with Albanese is that her acting sounds _separate_ from her singing. Like in her recording of the TRAVIATA duet with Robert Merrill, there are gasps and other extra-musical "noises" that are obviously meant to convey Violetta's infirmity but that don't seem to be worked into the musical line at all. The first word that comes to mind when I hear Albanese, actually, is "Victorian"; she sounds like she would have been right at home in Verdi's own era! That said, I do appreciate her timbre, which I hear as darkish and sort of shiny. So with me, I guess it's a case of liking her sound as sound but not her vocal acting.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> That's interesting, because the thing I don't care for with Albanese is that her acting sounds _separate_ from her singing. Like in her recording of the TRAVIATA duet with Robert Merrill, there are gasps and other extra-musical "noises" that are obviously meant to convey Violetta's infirmity but that don't seem to be worked into the musical line at all. The first word that comes to mind when I hear Albanese, actually, is "Victorian"; she sounds like she would have been right at home in Verdi's own era! That said, I do appreciate her timbre, which I hear as darkish and sort of shiny. So with me, I guess it's a case of liking her sound as sound but not her vocal acting.


Interesting.
Do you think you'd feel that same way if you actually saw her perform live? Perhaps what you are hearing is not the same as actually seeing her. Those extra noises you were hearing may just have been a different experience from seeing her live. 
I felt she was a consummate actor.


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## Sir Redcrosse (Aug 30, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The only singer I can think of was Gerhard Stoltz who was a character tenor. To see some of the singers named as ump,easant (eg Tebaldi who was famed for her beautiful voice) seems ludicrous. And to name Callas shows a huge lack of appreciation as to what her voice was like before her vocal problems set n. Listen to her Gilda with Serafin and you will hear a beautiful voice.


I have a special place in my heart for Stolz, though his voice can be at times unpleasant. I'm particularly fond of him in Salome; I think he really captures what a gross man Harod was.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> One of the few singers I'd put in the category of Great Singers with Unpleasant Voices, though I'm not sure I'd call her "great" anyway.


I suppose she can be a bit shrieky at times. I'm probably more forgiving of that in mezzos than sopranos


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I shall elaborate a bit


BalalaikaBoy said:


> excellent singers whose timbres I lack appreciation for are
> *1) Enrico Caruso*: too metallic kinda harsh
> *2) Giuseppe di Stefano*: way too light
> *3) Beverly Sills*: also too light, though a little more powerful than they above
> ...


another one for the list: *Rosa Ponselle:* her timbre always sounded mildly unpleasant to me, and somewhat swallowed like Tebaldi


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Interesting.
> Do you think you'd feel that same way if you actually saw her perform live? Perhaps what you are hearing is not the same as actually seeing her. Those extra noises you were hearing may just have been a different experience from seeing her live.
> I felt she was a consummate actor.


Oh yeah, I was going to add that onstage her acting and her singing probably "came together" very well; it's just that on recordings she strikes me as melodramatic in a way that Callas, for example, does not.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I shall elaborate a bit
> 
> another one for the list: *Rosa Ponselle:* her timbre always sounded mildly unpleasant to me, and somewhat swallowed like Tebaldi


Ponselle is possibly my favorite soprano, mostly because of her amazingly beautiful (to me) timbre! I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sir Redcrosse said:


> I have a special place in my heart for Stolz, though his voice can be at times unpleasant. I'm particularly fond of him in Salome; I think he really captures what a gross man Harod was.


I haven't heard Stolz, but whatever he sounds like I'm sure he sounds better than the Herod of the recording I own, the Sinopoli recording with Cheryl Studer and Bryn Terfel. I can't remember the tenor's name, but he has a major wobble and gives probably the most unpleasant-sounding performance I've ever heard on a studio opera recording.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sir Redcrosse said:


> I have a special place in my heart for Stolz, though his voice can be at times unpleasant. I'm particularly fond of him in Salome; I think he really captures what a gross man Harod was.


Stolz's Mime does make pretty tiresome listening on audio especially with Hotter's wobbly Wanderer (he was sadly in very poor voice in this act) in the Solti recording of Siegfried. Culshaw reckoned his stage performances were 'astonishing' which is maybe why he got picked ahead of the likes of Paul Kuen. He recorded the Solti Siegfried while recovering from Polio and could hardly walk.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I shall elaborate a bit
> 
> another one for the list: *Rosa Ponselle:* her timbre always sounded mildly unpleasant to me,


Gobsmacked, though it explains a lot. Either you just enjoy being contrary, or you hear voices differently from the vast majority of people. :devil:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Gobsmacked, though it explains a lot. Either you just enjoy being contrary, or you hear voices differently from the vast majority of people. :devil:


Some people just need that little 'extra bit' of attention.

- 'No,' I'm not talking about me! _;D_


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Gobsmacked, though it explains a lot. Either you just enjoy being contrary, or you hear voices differently from the vast majority of people. :devil:


it's not either/or


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *Rosa Ponselle:* her timbre always sounded mildly unpleasant to me, and somewhat swallowed like Tebaldi


Give her some time. I presume you can tell what a great singer she was, even if her timbre doesn't appeal to you. I first heard her old 78's back around 1970 and had never heard a soprano with such a ruby-dark timbre. I loved her singing but wasn't immediately fond of the sound as such. It was revelatory to hear the recordings made in her living room years after her retirement (in 1957, I think), which capture the full depth, richness and ring of her tone and sound not at all "swallowed."

Pre-electric recordings were so terribly unkind to sopranos in particular, shearing off overtones and flattening out the nuances of timbre, dimming the brilliance of the sound, and contributing artificial resonances. This last factor is noticeable in recordings of lower voices too, and I think it's pertinent to the "metallic" quality you hear in Caruso's high notes, which really must have rattled the old acoustic horn badly. Some creative engineers have gone some way toward counteracting this and have reproduced the voice a bit more realistically (if speculatively), but we will always have to give singers on acoustic recordings the benefit of the doubt. My feeling is that Caruso's voice was not harsh in life, but had a combination of darkness and brilliance rare among tenors and interestingly parallel to Ponselle's. She was much younger than he but they did sing together at the Met, and it must have been a vocal feast the like of which we can only imagine.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Give her some time. I presume you can tell what a great singer she was, even if her timbre doesn't appeal to you. *I first heard her old 78's back around 1970 and had never heard a soprano with such a ruby-dark timbre. *I loved her singing but wasn't immediately fond of the sound as such. It was revelatory to hear the recordings made in her living room years after her retirement (in 1957, I think), which capture the full depth, richness and ring of her tone and sound not at all "swallowed."
> 
> Pre-electric recordings were so terribly unkind to sopranos in particular, shearing off overtones and flattening out the nuances of timbre, dimming the brilliance of the sound, and sometimes contributing artificial resonances. This last factor is noticeable in recordings of lower voices too, and I think it's pertinent to the "metallic" quality you hear in Caruso's high notes, which really must have rattled the old acoustic horn badly. Some creative engineers have gone some way toward counteracting this and have reproduced the voice a bit more realistically (if speculatively), but we will always have to give singers on acoustic recordings the benefit of the doubt. My feeling is that Caruso's voice was not harsh in life, but had a combination of darkness and brilliance rare among tenors and interestingly parallel to Ponselle's. She was much younger than he but they did sing together at the Met, and it must have been a vocal feast the like of which we can only imagine.












Ponselle's voice has been described by people who have heard her live as a "dark port wine"- but to me, her voice makes her the 'Dark Star': absolutely huge, dark, and magnificent- she just 'pulls me' into her with that mammoth, streamlined column of sound.

She was, incidentally (yes, I know Woodduck knows this), Callas' favorite singer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Ponselle's voice has been described by people who have heard her live as a "dark port wine"- but to me, her voice makes her the 'Dark Star': absolutely huge, dark, and magnificent- she just 'pulls me' into her with that mammoth, streamlined column of sound.
> 
> She was, incidentally (yes, I know Woodduck knows this), Callas' favorite singer.


Fantastic photo. I can just feel that voice resonating inside me when I look at it. Of all her recordings, this may be my favorite:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Fantastic photo. I can just feel that voice resonating inside me when I look at it.


Silver acetate is my favorite! _;D_

Ponselle's so g*dd#mned cute in that photo that I can't even stand it.

How someone can look so simultaneously 'cute' and (paradoxically) 'DIVA-ISH,' but at the same time sound so 'goddess-like' is completely beyond me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Silver acetate is my favorite! _;D_
> 
> Ponselle's so g*dd#mned cute in that photo that I can't even stand it.
> 
> How someone can look so simultaneously 'cute' and (paradoxically) 'DIVA-ISH,' but at the same time sound so 'goddess-like' is completely beyond me.


Paradoxical is right. Her face at the time of her Met debut - 1918, in _Forza_ - was doe eyes, pouty lips and puppy fat.

Some great photos accompany this Norma clip:






i can hear more than a little of Callas's interpretation here. And just listen to that coloratura and dynamic control. It's almost as if Flagstad had the technique of Sutherland.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Fantastic photo. I can just feel that voice resonating inside me when I look at it. Of all her recordings, this may be my favorite:
> 
> [B]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU80147lnoU[/B]












I love that you posted this Ponselle You Tube video for everyone to hear. I've always loved this (cut number eight on the Nimbus 'Ponselle: Volume I' cd).

Yeah, Ponselle's "_O Nume tutelar_" from May 18, 1926 is tremendous- I get chills with how the dark mid-range of her voice changes in a subtle and stable continuum of sound to the most the seamless and silvery of legato.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Paradoxical is right. Her face at the time of her Met debut - 1918, in _Forza_ - was doe eyes, pouty lips and puppy fat.
> 
> Some great photos accompany this Norma clip:
> 
> ...












^^ I love the high-angle panning camera shot of the photo (and Ponselle's 'VOICE') from 01:25-01:36 in the You Tube video- which is tracked to "_Sedizione voci_" and not _Casta Diva_."










As Callas undoubtably had Ponselle to go off of as a template for "_Casta Diva_," I'm quite sure that Caballe also had Ponselle to go by when singing her "_Sendizione voci_" from her famous 1974 live Orange performance with Jon Vickers- my how gloriously similar they sound!

Ponselle's a force of nature.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Fantastic photo. I can just feel that voice resonating inside me when I look at it. Of all her recordings, this may be my favorite:





> Yeah, Ponselle's "_O Nume tutelar_" from May 18, 1926 is tremendous- I get chills with how the dark mid-range of her voice changes in a subtle and stable continuum of sound to the most the seamless and silvery of legato.


Wonderful pose and costume Marschallin, regarding the la Vestale "O nume tutelary" don't we like the Callas version much more?

Ponselle has the clean even smooth tone up and down the scale, but the Callas version has so much more vocal character and emotionally expressive.......


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Here is what the late John B. Steane wrote about Ponselle in his book *The Grand Tradition: 70 Years of Singing *on Record:

"Port wine, roses, pansies, velvet, cream: the search for enlightening comparisons has involved all these when people have tried to describe the voice they heard. A recipe for the voice might have suggested a foundation of Caballe crossed with De los Angeles, a dash of Milanov, another of Lemnitz, something of Flagstad for power and a drop of the Clara Butts for depth. One other name is sometimes associated with Ponselle, that of Caruso. He himself recognized an affinity, so the story goes, for when he met her as a girl of 21 he turned a singer's eye upon her face, bone structure and cavities, and said 'Scugnizza [little urchin], you are like me.'"

Ponselle has been recognized by many great fellow singers as a towering figure. Among them, *Callas was said to have said, "I think we all know that Ponselle is the greatest of us all." *So discussing Ponselle under the present thread name "Great Singers with unpleasant voices" is not only paradoxical, but rather weird as well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> Here is what the late John B. Steane wrote about Ponselle in his book *The Grand Tradition: 70 Years of Singing *on Record:
> 
> "Port wine, roses, pansies, velvet, cream: the search for enlightening comparisons has involved all these when people have tried to describe the voice they heard. A recipe for the voice might have suggested a foundation of Caballe crossed with De los Angeles, a dash of Milanov, another of Lemnitz, something of Flagstad for power and a drop of the Clara Butts for depth. One other name is sometimes associated with Ponselle, that of Caruso. He himself recognized an affinity, so the story goes, for when he met her as a girl of 21 he turned a singer's eye upon her face, bone structure and cavities, and said 'Scugnizza [little urchin], you are like me.'"
> 
> Ponselle has been recognized by many great fellow singers as a towering figure. Among them, *Callas was said to have said, "I think we all know that Ponselle is the greatest of us all." *So discussing Ponselle under the present thread name "Great Singers with unpleasant voices" is not only paradoxical, but rather weird as well.


We were forced to do it. :lol:

Actually, the whole idea of a great singer with an unpleasant voice strikes me as a little weird. Has any singer whose voice is widely regarded as unpleasant to listen to also been widely regarded as "great"? Most of the singers cited so far have simply been singers whose voices some of us don't care for.

I find Giovanni Martinelli's animalistic screaming almost unlistenable, and I don't consider him a great singer. But some do, I suppose.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I find Giovanni Martinelli's animalistic screaming almost unlistenable, and I don't consider him a great singer. But some do, I suppose.


FYI (think you probably have already known about it as well), Martinelli is John B. Steane's personal favourite tenor (OTOH, his personal favourite soprano is Schwarzkopf). These become all too clear if one has read his three-volume _Singers of the Century_ and many of his articles in _The Gramophone_ magazine, apart from _The Grand Tradition_.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Wonderful pose and costume Marschallin, regarding the la Vestale "O nume tutelary" don't we like the Callas version much more?
> 
> Ponselle has the clean even smooth tone up and down the scale, but the Callas version has so much more vocal character and emotionally expressive.......





















I think Ponselle has the range, control, flexibility, and agility of Callas- and of course she has something Callas doesn't always have, namely a rich velvet and varnish to her voice.

However, Callas' dramatic instincts and imaginative voice colorations are _sans pareil_- incisive, penetrating, and powerful. Her inflections and shading melded to her fierce technique and searching intelligence make her singing more like a prism- where she brings out all the colors, tints, and hues imaginable to express love, passion, gentleness, despair, sexiness, ferocity- everything. No singer mirrors the depths of the soul like Callas does.

Callas is my girl- but Ponselle's a goddess- and a 'fierce' goddess at that.

So though Ponselle has the better overall timbre- Callas has the ingenious musicality and sense of phrasing that make her the Best-in-Show Goddess in my book. _;D_

I honestly would not want to be without either though.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I think Ponselle has the range, control, flexibility, and agility of Callas- and of course she has something Callas doesn't always have, namely a rich velvet and varnish to her voice.
> 
> However, Callas' dramatic instincts and imaginative voice colorations are _sans pareil_- incisive, penetrating, and powerful. Her inflections and shading melded to her fierce technique and searching intelligence make her singing more like a prism- where she brings out all the colors, tints, and hues imaginable to express love, passion, gentleness, despair, sexiness, ferocity- everything. No singer mirrors the depths of the soul like Callas does.
> 
> ...


In 1997, the centenary of Ponselle's birth coincided with the 20th anniversary of Callas' passing. In a survey article on Callas' recorded legacy published in the April 1997 issue of _The Gramophone _magazine, *John B. Steane *had this to say after comparing Ponselle's and Callas' respective renditions of "Suicidio" from _La Gioconda_.

*"Callas had not the vocal glory of Ponselle, who may not have had the imaginative intensity of Callas. But between them they seem to me to share the supreme honours of our century in their shared repertoire; and in terms of gramophone history, as a soprano who recorded, all in all, more than 30 operas hardly one of which can be dismissed without loss, Callas stands alone." * 

That sums up everything very nicely.

BTW, this thread seems to have derailed terribly.....


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

plumblossom said:


> In 1997, the centenary of Ponselle's birth coincided with the 20th anniversary of Callas' passing. In a survey article on Callas' recorded legacy published in the April 1997 issue of _The Gramophone _magazine, *John B. Steane *had this to say after comparing Ponselle's and Callas' respective renditions of "Suicidio" from _La Gioconda_.
> 
> *"Callas had not the vocal glory of Ponselle, who may not have had the imaginative intensity of Callas. But between them they seem to me to share the supreme honours of our century in their shared repertoire; and in terms of gramophone history, as a soprano who recorded, all in all, more than 30 operas hardly one of which can be dismissed without loss, Callas stands alone." *
> 
> ...


I *love* that quote by John Steane, neatly and succinctly putting the achievement of both singers in a nutshell.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I think that this thread is so much about our personal taste. I think it's impossible to say objectively if a singer has an unpleasant voice. Some like and some don't like a particular voice. The usual subjects have been singers like Callas and Gobbi who act with their voices. It was interesting to see Tebaldi mentioned, because even if you don't like her singing usually people agree that she has a beautiful voice. There are singers whose voices I don't like. Magda Olivero was one I didn't care for at first, but now I like her. BalalaikaBoys list is quite interesting. Caruso I can understand somewhat because of the recording quality. How someone doesn't like Di Stefano is a mystery to me. Tebaldi I would think would be more like you don't like her singing style, since I always thought that her voice would be pretty much universally liked. People usually criticize Domingo for his high notes and not his voice in general. 

And to the end I would like to say that I can fully understand if someone doesn't like a particular singers voice. Except Di Stefano of course


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Talking about *Schwarzkopf*, here is *Paul Jackson*'s commentary (taken from his book *Sign-Off for the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broadcasts, 1950-1966*) on Schwarzkopf's Marschallin, as heard in a broadcast of a performance of Der Rosenkavalier at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, on December 19, 1964 on the occasion of her belated debut at the Met.

Gosh! Jackson is really harsh on her and this would surely make very uncomfortable reading for Schwarzkopf fans, yet putting these aside, I would still regard this as a truly classic piece of criticism on operatic performances, and in it there are some very interesting descriptions and analogies:

"At this stage of her long and distinguished career, what is there left to say of Schwarzkopf, "one of the world's most famous singers," as [Milton] Cross tells us when the house roars its approval at the opera's close. Best to sum up her performance as always fascinating, sometimes frustrating. In her "informal" history of the company, Eaton dismissed the diva's brief Metropolitan fling as "clearly a case of too little too late." Kolodin, on the other hand, opined that her Marschallin (at the premiere?) was "the first truly great one the Metropolitan had seen since [Lotte] Lehmann's." He may be right (though I would assert Crespin's intermediate claim), if by "truly great" he means hers is a portrait of utmost distinction, sure in intent and masterly in execution. The broadcast gives us more particulars. At 49 (not necessarily "too late"), she is in excellent vocal form, often producing tones of considerable body, and in the highest range, delectable color. But she turns the princess into such a calculating, hard-hearted creature that the work flies off center. I have seen her Marschallin in other locales and admired it, but on this afternoon, even to one willing to accept her intriguing conception, she overplays her hand. With utter precision she applies her eagle interpretive eye to every phrase, every word - and each effort can be (and should be) admired en route. But the cumulative effect is one of clutter. Then, too, her harsh interpretive stance chills: "schlechte Kerl" is a veritable snarl; "Jedes Ding hat seine Zeit" is oddly devoid of charm; how she disdains "die alte Frau"! *She affects a horrified whisper to launch "Die Zeit, die ist ein sonderbar Ding" - this is no wakeful princess, but a mini-Lady Macbeth sleepwalking. A novice Boris Godunov would learn from Schwarzkopf's reaction to the clocks in her palace. *If one accepts her interpretation (and I do savour its remarkable, captivating detail), there remains a critical flaw in her vocalism, secure as it is - and it is very secure on this afternoon. All her vowel sounds blend into a nondescript umlaut configuration which can be downright ugly in the middle-low and low voice. Amazingly, one cannot understand her words a good part of the time, so fixed must be the voice to manufacture tone - a Marschallin who cannot enunciate Hofmannsthal's text is a troublesome thing. Certainly Schwarzkopf's commanding manner as she enters in the final act must be admired; by force of will she preserves the noble line of the opening of the trio. Happily, the three ladies [with Lisa della Casa as Octavian and Judith Raskin as Sophie], who each can sport a lustrous sound, turn the conclusion into a glorious outpouring of soprano tone. If one cannot love Schwarzkopf's Marschallin on this afternoon, who would wish to do without its infinite variety? Not I. Even when the intentions seem so specific, it would be idiotic not to relish Schwarzkopf's theatrical wizardry and musical intelligence - those are commodities rarely encountered, especially in the plenitude of Miss Schwarzkopf's holdings. *Her great champion rightly has called her a "sorceress," and if I have not entirely succumbed to her wiles, it is because I know her to be one." *


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

plumblossom said:


> View attachment 75153
> 
> 
> Talking about *Schwarzkopf*, here is *Paul Jackson*'s commentary (taken from his book *Sign-Off for the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broadcasts, 1950-1966*) on Schwarzkopf's Marschallin, as heard in a broadcast of a performance of Der Rosenkavalier at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, on December 19, 1964 on the occasion of her belated debut at the Met.
> ...


Well of course I can't comment on Schwarzkopf's Marschallin on this occasion. She was a searching, intellectual artist, constantly striving for new meanings and colours. Fiercely self critical, she might well herself have rejected her performance on this particular afternoon.

For my part, I find her Marschallin on the Karajan recording and in the Karajan/Czinner film, endlessly fascinating, supremely moving _and_ beautifully sung. She is my favourite Marschallin by a mile.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> View attachment 75153
> 
> 
> Talking about *Schwarzkopf*, here is *Paul Jackson*'s commentary (taken from his book *Sign-Off for the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broadcasts, 1950-1966*) on Schwarzkopf's Marschallin, as heard in a broadcast of a performance of Der Rosenkavalier at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, on December 19, 1964 on the occasion of her belated debut at the Met.
> ...












Thank you for posting the review, plummie.

Not having heard the performance, there is nothing I can say or add to it.

Although I would of course love to 'hear it,' just to discern if Jackson's literary flights of fancy in fact accurately convey what was sung.

We 'Marschallins' stick together. _;D_

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical with someone who's a bit dismissive of one of the twentieth century's greatest singers.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Honestly I haven't yet heard the 1964 Met performance. Anyone interested can place an order for CD-R copy from the Omega Opera Archive (Dr Irwin C. Elkins):

http://omegaoperasite.net/

If I remember correctly each custom-made CD-R set costs US$40 (excluding shipping)


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

A warning: The Omega Opera Archive, like the Maria Callas International Club, can lead to great temptations to spend enormously. So opera aficionados, especially our Shopaholic Queen, has to beware of the danger.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> A warning: The Omega Opera Archive, like the Maria Callas International Club, can lead to great temptations to spend enormously. So opera aficionados, especially our Shopaholic Queen, has to beware of the danger.


The only danger is getting something that will unnecessarily clutter my shelves.

What would Ayn Rand and Aristotle say?- "I'm only interested in 'essentials.'"

_;D_


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

plumblossom said:


> View attachment 75153
> 
> 
> Talking about *Schwarzkopf*, here is *Paul Jackson*'s commentary (taken from his book *Sign-Off for the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broadcasts, 1950-1966*) on Schwarzkopf's Marschallin, as heard in a broadcast of a performance of Der Rosenkavalier at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, on December 19, 1964 on the occasion of her belated debut at the Met.
> ...


This performance was posted on YouTube on May 15th if anyone is interested!


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

plumblossom said:


> View attachment 75153
> 
> 
> Talking about *Schwarzkopf*, here is *Paul Jackson*'s commentary (taken from his book *Sign-Off for the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broadcasts, 1950-1966*) on Schwarzkopf's Marschallin, as heard in a broadcast of a performance of Der Rosenkavalier at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, on December 19, 1964 on the occasion of her belated debut at the Met.
> ...


Marschallin darling, you can save the money for the Omega Opera Archive CD-R.  Thanks to Barbebleu's advice, now here is the YT upload of the 1964 Met performance to judge for yourself whether Jackson had been too harsh on Schwarzkopf's Der Feldmarschallin, uploaded 4 months ago:






Please note the sound is a semitone sharp.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

plumblossom said:


> Marschallin darling, you can save the money for the Omega Opera Archive CD-R.  Thanks to Barbebleu's advice, now here is the YT upload of the 1964 Met performance to judge for yourself whether Jackson had been too harsh on Schwarzkopf's Der Feldmarschallin, uploaded 4 months ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Thank you for this, plummie. <hug>_ ;D_

I think Paul Jackson's review tells me more about Paul Jackson and how he doesn't care for Schwarzkopf than it does about the quality of Schwarzkopf's singing _per se_.

I found Schwarzkopf's "_Die Zeit, die ist ein sonderbar Ding_" certainly a bit nervous sounding _vis-à-vis_ her famed EMI Karajan/Philharmonia recording, but a far leap from remotely sounding like a "mini Lady Macbeth sleepwalking"- as he so uncharitably puts it.

Perhaps I'm wrong though. Maybe we were attending completely different performances.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It shows of course how subjective music criticism is and the extent to which personal preferences effect our judgment. We can tell if the right notes are sounding but what of the sound of the voice. I was gobsmacked when someone even said they didn't like the sound of Tebaldi's voice! Whatever her shortcomings (or not) as an interpreter I would have thought the actual sound she makes is beyond question beautiful. So what of those like Callas, especially towards the end of her career. A minefield! Read the reviews on the web. Everyone says something different! So here is an area in which opinion can be brought forward but where dogmatism must take a back seat.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The only singer I can think of was Gerhard Stoltz who was a character tenor. To see some of the singers named as ump,easant (eg Tebaldi who was famed for her beautiful voice) seems ludicrous. And to name Callas shows a huge lack of appreciation as to what her voice was like before her vocal problems set n. Listen to her Gilda with Serafin and you will hear a beautiful voice.


Gerhard Stolze had a uniquely individual voice and while some people, like yourself, may not care for its timbre, he like Bob Dylan, sings absolutely in tune, which, in my book, is extremely important. A voice which does nothing for me is that belonging to Kiri Te Kanawa and while I don't doubt that she is a very fine singer she leaves me cold. Each to his own.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

*Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau:* I'm not sure "unpleasant" is the right word, I guess I just like my baris nice 'n dark. I might learn to appreciate this one yet, but for the moment, nah, not my cup of tea
*Piero Cappuccilli:* something about his cadence (for lack of a better word) seemed off to me, and his high notes always sounded weird
*Cesare Sieppi:* a bit too "woof-y" for me. 
*Jussi Bjorling:* once again, my bias for darker voices shows. his voice was certainly pretty, but, meh, boring lol

updated list:
1) Enrico Caruso
2) Giuseppe di Stefano
3) Beverly Sills
4) Renata Tebaldi
5) Placido Domingo
6) Rosa Ponselle
7) Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
8) Piero Cappuccilli
9) Cesare Siepi
10) Jussi Bjorling


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau:* I'm not sure "unpleasant" is the right word, I guess I just like my baris nice 'n dark. I might learn to appreciate this one yet, but for the moment, nah, not my cup of tea
> *Piero Cappuccilli:* something about his cadence (for lack of a better word) seemed off to me, and his high notes always sounded weird
> *Cesare Sieppi:* a bit too "woof-y" for me.
> *Jussi Bjorling:* once again, my bias for darker voices shows. his voice was certainly pretty, but, meh, boring lol
> ...


Just listen to D F-D's 1950s version of Schubert's Swansong. Some of the most sheerly beautiful sngng one can hear. And you do realise you have included in your list of unpleasant voices some singers whose voices are generally reckoned the most beautiful f all time! Go away and listen to Bjorling sing the Pearl Fishers!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Just listen to D F-D's 1950s version of Schubert's Swansong. Some of the most sheerly beautiful sngng one can hear. And you do realise you have included in your list of unpleasant voices some *singers whose voices are generally reckoned the most beautiful of all time*! Go away and listen to Bjorling sing the Pearl Fishers!


I agree that this list is astonishing - a case where 'everyone is entitled to their own opinion' can be questioned :devil:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> I agree that this list is astonishing - a case where 'everyone is entitled to their own opinion' can be questioned :devil:


Some people just enjoy being controversial.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau:* I'm not sure "unpleasant" is the right word, I guess I just like my baris nice 'n dark. I might learn to appreciate this one yet, but for the moment, nah, not my cup of tea
> *Piero Cappuccilli:* something about his cadence (for lack of a better word) seemed off to me, and his high notes always sounded weird
> *Cesare Sieppi:* a bit too "woof-y" for me.
> *Jussi Bjorling:* once again, my bias for darker voices shows. his voice was certainly pretty, but, meh, boring lol
> ...


I'm speechless..well almost. I'm the *last* person to deny anyone their opinion but I find this totally incomprehensible. How can you put Sutherland at the top of a list of voices you like then say that Sills is too light for you? Have you heard Tebaldi's Desdemona...it's sublime. As suggested above, listen to Bjorling's duet with Merrill or his _Romeo_ live from the Met. Di Stefano's _e lucevan _is, among others, one of the most moving on disc. I could go on but fear I'm wasting my time?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Braddan said:


> I'm speechless..well almost. I'm the *last* person to deny anyone their opinion but I find this totally incomprehensible. How can you put Sutherland at the top of a list of voices you like then say that Sills is too light for you? Have you heard Tebaldi's Desdemona...it's sublime. As suggested above, listen to Bjorling's duet with Merrill or his _Romeo_ live from the Met. Di Stefano's _e lucevan _is, among others, one of the most moving on disc. I *could go on but fear I'm wasting my time*?


You're not wasting your time as it is the purpose of TC (I hope) to allow everyone their opinion, even those which most of us disagree with. We can give, hopefully, an informed reply based on our experience. One thing I would say that this thread is about singers with unpleasant voices. Even if you don't care for an artist it is another step to say their voice is unpleasant. Siepi unpleasant? Never in a million years!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau:* I'm not sure "unpleasant" is the right word, I guess I just like my baris nice 'n dark. I might learn to appreciate this one yet, but for the moment, nah, not my cup of tea
> *Piero Cappuccilli:* something about his cadence (for lack of a better word) seemed off to me, and his high notes always sounded weird
> *Cesare Sieppi:* a bit too "woof-y" for me.
> *Jussi Bjorling:* once again, my bias for darker voices shows. his voice was certainly pretty, but, meh, boring lol
> ...


If I don't care for a singer, it's never the sound as sound but rather the style or manner that I don't like. For example, my least favorite opera singer of all time is probably Leo Nucci, not because of his timbre but because I can't stand_ the way_ he sang -- all that "barking" and sliding up to notes. From your list, I find Piero Cappucilli rather too "generic" a singer, but that's his manner, not his voice. Incidentally, when you say his cadence was off, what do you mean?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Some people just enjoy being controversial.


. . . or even soporific.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

As the starter of the thread, I'm very grateful for all the input, and it has in the greater part confirmed some of my expectations. Even if a few tend to exagerate the subjectivity of judgments about vocal beauty, here, as in all matters of artistic taste, there is quite a lot of agreement amongst qualified and experienced listeners. Especially if we narrow the issue to the category of "classically" beautiful/not beautiful timbre, and I have done some extensive research in this field . Voices - always meaning here a singer's basic timbre at his or her vocal peak - like Bjoerling, Tebaldi, te Kanawa or di Stefano will almost always be in the classically beautiful league, since they have come to exemplify and be part of the very meaning of the concept. The converse is also true: Great Singing Artists like Callas, Rysanek or Stolze simply didn't have it (no matter if in a particular aria for once they sounded beautifully, we are not talking of exceptions - a contrario, every beautiful voice has its bad moments).
But THEN... there are some cases I'm interested in, which are those where a voice that you more or less recognize as an idiosyncratic one, while not deviating severely from the central ideal of beauty, strikes you as either very pleasant OR a bit unpleasant - and you know that many, perhaps most other qualified listeners will probably not agree with you, which you (at least, me...) being neither a poseur nor a provocateur, will feel at least puzzled and slightly unconfortable with. Let me give just a few personal examples: on the positive side, Inge Borkh, Gwyneth Jones and José Cura (I just melt hearing their voices at their respective primes, forget about mannerisms); on the negative, Alfredo Kraus and (please, forgive me...) the great Luciano.
Finally, there are those cases of utter subjectivity which you just have to live with, like in all art, but they tend to be at the extremes, not the rule.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> If I don't care for a singer, it's never the sound as sound but rather the style or manner that I don't like. For example, my least favorite opera singer of all time is probably Leo Nucci, not because of his timbre but because I can't stand_ the way_ he sang -- all that "barking" and sliding up to notes.


_that's_ who I was forgetting! I dislike his singing for precisely that reason. 


> updated list:
> 1) Enrico Caruso
> 2) Giuseppe di Stefano
> 3) Beverly Sills
> ...





> From your list, I find Piero Cappucilli rather too "generic" a singer, but that's his manner, not his voice. Incidentally, when you say his cadence was off, what do you mean?


I don't know how else to explain it, sorry lol


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Braddan said:


> I'm speechless..well almost. I'm the *last* person to deny anyone their opinion but I find this totally incomprehensible. How can you put Sutherland at the top of a list of voices you like then say that Sills is too light for you?


simple: Sutherland had a heroic, opulent middle register, Sills did not. 
only Sutherland could do this





and then turn around and do this







> Have you heard Tebaldi's Desdemona...it's sublime.


I'll take a look



> As suggested above, listen to Bjorling's duet with Merrill or his _Romeo_ live from the Met.


yes, this is a wonderful piece



> Di Stefano's _e lucevan _is, among others, one of the most moving on disc. I could go on but fear I'm wasting my time?


noted


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Balalaikaboy:* It seems to me that many of the voices you're calling "unattractive" are simply voices that sound _strange_ to you in one way or another. Personally, I wouldn't necessarily call these kinds of voices "unattractive." A case in point: the first time I ever heard Katia Ricciarelli (on a recording) I thought her voice sounded, for lack of a better word, "eerie" -- i.e. so pure and soft-grained as to seem almost disembodied. I would have called her voice beautiful, but unusual.

I'm guessing that what you're referring to with Cappuccilli is a certain lack of expression or inflection in his singing? It's actually that quality that makes me think of him as "generic," and I have a similar feeling about another baritone, Renato Bruson. Both he and Cappuccilli sound, to me, sort of like the equivalent of a person talking in a monotone. Their timbres are unquestionably attractive; I just find their phrasing on the dull side.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Balalaikaboy:* It seems to me that many of the voices you're calling "unattractive" are simply voices that sound _strange_ to you in one way or another. Personally, I wouldn't necessarily call these kinds of voices "unattractive." A case in point: the first time I ever heard Katia Ricciarelli (on a recording) I thought her voice sounded, for lack of a better word, "eerie" -- i.e. so pure and soft-grained as to seem almost disembodied. I would have called her voice beautiful, but unusual.
> 
> I'm guessing that what you're referring to with Cappuccilli is a certain lack of expression or inflection in his singing? It's actually that quality that makes me think of him as "generic," and I have a similar feeling about another baritone, Renato Bruson. Both he and Cappuccilli sound, to me, sort of like the equivalent of a person talking in a monotone. Their timbres are unquestionably attractive; I just find their phrasing on the dull side.


He's provoking, that's what he likes most.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Balalaikaboy:* *It seems to me that many of the voices you're calling "unattractive" are simply voices that sound strange to you in one way or another*. Personally, I wouldn't necessarily call these kinds of voices "unattractive." A case in point: the first time I ever heard Katia Ricciarelli (on a recording) I thought her voice sounded, for lack of a better word, "eerie" -- i.e. so pure and soft-grained as to seem almost disembodied. I would have called her voice beautiful, but unusual.
> 
> I'm guessing that what you're referring to with Cappuccilli is a certain lack of expression or inflection in his singing? It's actually that quality that makes me think of him as "generic," and I have a similar feeling about another baritone, Renato Bruson. Both he and Cappuccilli sound, to me, sort of like the equivalent of a person talking in a monotone. Their timbres are unquestionably attractive; I just find their phrasing on the dull side.


not at all. I love many voices which I would consider "strange" by most standards (Leyla Gencer, Ewa Podles, Marissa Galvany, even Maria Callas falls into this category)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> not at all. I love many voices which I would consider "strange" by most standards (Leyla Gencer, Ewa Podles, Marissa Galvany, even Maria Callas falls into this category)


I see...I guess I was wrong, then!

By the way, I just realized that I sort of misrepresented the starting assumption of this thread: the title says "unpleasant," not "unattractive." I guess, in light of that, the voices you listed above are simply voices that don't fall pleasingly on your ear, not ones you actually consider _ugly._


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I see...I guess I was wrong, then!
> 
> By the way, I just realized that I sort of misrepresented the starting assumption of this thread: the title says "unpleasant," not "unattractive." I guess, in light of that, the voices you listed above are simply voices that don't fall pleasingly on your ear, not ones you actually consider _ugly._


exactly, Jussi Bjorling is the epitome of a "pretty" voice by any sense of the word, it just doesn't sit well for me.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> Huh. I find the inclusion of Rysanek and Gobbi in this discussion semi lunatic. I guess it just goes to show how different voices affect listeners differently.


On the contrary, this accords with the vast majority of opinions. Olivero, I'm not sure.


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## Leonore (May 13, 2015)

Coming back to the original question... I could never develop an appreciation for great Jon Vickers' timbre, try as I might. And I find Anna Tomowa-Sintow difficult to listen to, I don't enjoy her voice at all.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Leonore said:


> Coming back to the original question... I could never develop an appreciation for great Jon Vickers' timbre, try as I might. And I find Anna Tomowa-Sintow difficult to listen to, I don't enjoy her voice at all.


I love the basic timbre of Vickers's voice, but then I have always preferred distinctive to merely beautiful. On the other hand, I also love the voice of Wunderlich, who had one of the most sheerly beautiful tenor voices ever, maybe because it was both beautiful _and_ distinctive.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

Leonore said:


> Coming back to the original question... I could never develop an appreciation for great Jon Vickers' timbre, try as I might. And I find Anna Tomowa-Sintow difficult to listen to, I don't enjoy her voice at all.


Completely agree regarding Vickers, Anna TS I love but is one of those timbres I understand why other people would not, as with my beloved Inge Borkh.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

What about Alfredo Kraus? I really have a hard time figuring out why so many people find his voice beautiful...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

antoniolopes said:


> What about Alfredo Kraus? I really have a hard time figuring out why so many people find his voice beautiful...


I'm not sure that many people find the basic timbre beautiful, but I'm not sure I would call it unpleasant either. The compensations are, of course, style, elegance, breath control, and musicality, all of which are highly prized, by me anyway.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

One arbitrary criticism of singers I've heard tossed around is the concept of them "having no musicality." Huh? What does that mean, exactly? It sounds like a question of taste which one is trying to legitimize by pretending there's an official "musicological" term for it. I once heard this pejorative applied to Edita Gruberova. Sure she's not everyone's cup of tea, but... "Unmusicality"? Really? Do explain.

In short, I'd rather one I just come out and call a voice ugly than try to hide behind a ten-cent word... "legato" is a term with some actual descriptive usefulness, "musicality" is not IMO.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure that many people find the basic timbre beautiful, but I'm not sure I would call it unpleasant either. The compensations are, of course, style, elegance, breath control, and musicality, all of which are highly prized, by me anyway.


I like the brightness and clarity of Kraus' voice. I agree that it tended to be nasal, which I put down to his vocal placement ("high in the mask of the face") and the fact that he was Spanish. The trouble is that I haven't heard many recordings of Kraus, and most of the ones I have heard were done when he was past his prime. For example, the other day I was listening to his 1978 RIGOLETTO, where he was clearly past his best years. The brightness and clarity were there, but the voice had dried out so that the legato was compromised.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> One arbitrary criticism of singers I've heard tossed around is the concept of them "having no musicality." Huh? What does that mean, exactly? It sounds like a question of taste which one is trying to legitimize by pretending there's an official "musicological" term for it. I once heard this pejorative applied to Edita Gruberova. Sure she's not everyone's cup of tea, but... "Unmusicality"? Really? Do explain.
> 
> In short, I'd rather one I just come out and call a voice ugly than try to hide behind a ten-cent word... "legato" is a term with some actual descriptive usefulness, "musicality" is not IMO.


I'm not at all sure what you're driving at here. Though musicality might be hard to define, it most certainly exists, and there are some musicians, who are more musical than others, who seem to have an innate ability to make sense of the notes on the printed page and get to the truth of what a composer is trying to express.

The OED defines musicality as "The quality or character of being musical; accomplishment or aptitude in music; musical sensibility," but I think it is the latter sense in which most people use the word. It can be used of all musicians and is also often used of dancers. Margot Fonteyn, for instance, was often praised for her musicality, by which people meant her natural response to the music. She didn't just dance in time; she seemed to breathe with the music. Interestingly, though Callas was undoubtedly a great actress, her acting was also always a response to the music. She said herself, that if you wanted to find a gesture, all you had to do was listen to the music, and it would tell you what to do. Would that it was that simple. Many listen, but not all hear.

So with musicians, it is not just the ability to technically execute the notes, but to make _musical_ sense of them. Another definition I came across in Oxford Dictionaries is musical sensitivity, and that too is something I would look for in a musician, all musicians. I think it a very useful term, and it does have a lot of meaning for many of us. Maybe those who don't understand it just aren't very musical.

Incidentally I have no idea why someone would call Gruberova unmusical. I don't know that much of her work, but she sings very beautifully _and_ musically on the Muti *I Capuleti e i Montecchi*.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure that many people find the basic timbre beautiful, but I'm not sure I would call it unpleasant either. The compensations are, of course, style, elegance, breath control, and musicality, all of which are highly prized, by me anyway.


I'll take elegance of expression, style, and excitement over 'timbre' any day.

Its not like I care to listen to a timbrally-pure, pristine-sounding synthesizer.

Its the human element in singing that moves me.

People don't talk in monotone (well, most people don't).

Why should people sing like they do?


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'll take elegance of expression, style, and excitement over 'timbre' any day.


Then again, why settle for the former when you can listen to Leontyne Price, Gheorghiu, Borodina, Carreras, Hvorostovsky, Melchior, Scholl, and (God bless us) many, many more who have it all (lucky ********)?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

antoniolopes said:


> Then again, why settle for the former when you can listen to Leontyne Price, Gheorghiu, Borodina, Carreras, Hvorostovsky, Melchior, Scholl, and (God bless us) many, many more who have it all (lucky ********)?


Who says one has to choose one at the expense of the other?

I want it all.

Its just that with Divina, I always get more-than-all.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Jon Vickers. Terrific, passionate singing actor. Voice? Not so terrific.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

Here is one example of unpleasant voice as objective as it gets (although I am unsure if anyone would call him a great singer, he had a busy career): Reiner Goldberg, Levine's Siegfried (CD), also recorded Parsifal in the Syberberg film. (If you doubt your ear, at least trust the two critics of Gramophone on the Gotterdammerung).


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

antoniolopes said:


> On the contrary, this accords with the vast majority of opinions. Olivero, I'm not sure.


I don't believe that's true. Rysanek and Gobbi were known for being dramatic to the point where they'd sacrifice the beauty of a line for the dramatic thrust, but just as instruments, their voices were never widely considered unpleasant. They both have what I would consider beautiful voices, but they deliberately don't always sing beautifully.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

antoniolopes said:


> Here is one example of unpleasant voice as objective as it gets (although I am unsure if anyone would call him a great singer, he had a busy career): Reiner Goldberg, Levine's Siegfried (CD), also recorded Parsifal in the Syberberg film. (If you doubt your ear, at least trust the two critics of Gramophone on the Gotterdammerung).


He wasn't great in that Levine at the end of his career when he was overparted as Siegfried, but his voice sounded great a decade earlier in the Syberberg Parsifal in a role he was more apt for. One of the prettier Parsifals on disc (or film) actually.






Here he is doing the Preislied a few years after that. Not one of the best I've heard but by no means would I characterize the voice as unpleasant even at that stage--I'd put it above average for what you hear as Walthers.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Not that this is going to matter (or even help) for many, but I find Goldberg was among the better interpreters of the role of Aron in Kegel's recording of Schoenberg's Moses und Aron. That recording was made in 1976, though, long before the 1991 Siegfried.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Two singers come to my mind in regard to unpleasant voices. Cristina Deutekom with her very strange clucky coloratura is nonetheless in some way appealing to me, and I actually enjoy listening to her once in a great while ... kind of like going to the freak show at the carnival. The other one is Wolfgang Windgassen. I recognize his enormous stature as a Wagnerian singer, but in the many Wagner recordings I have where he is featured, whenever he is singing I just find his voice to be incredibly ugly and wish that it were Wunderlich singing the same notes. So here we have two different answers to the thread. One is a singer who appeals to me innately, but her technique puts me off, and a second singer whose innate tone quality is off-putting, and no amount of technique for me will make up for that. One man's humble opinion. Talk amongst yourselves.

Best Regards, 

George


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Barelytenor said:


> Two singers come to my mind in regard to unpleasant voices. Cristina Deutekom with her very strange clucky coloratura is nonetheless in some way appealing to me, and I actually enjoy listening to her once in a great while ... kind of like going to the freak show at the carnival. The other one is Wolfgang Windgassen. I recognize his enormous stature as a Wagnerian singer, but in the many Wagner recordings I have where he is featured, whenever he is singing I just find his voice to be incredibly ugly and wish that it were Wunderlich singing the same notes. So here we have two different answers to the thread. One is a singer who appeals to me innately, but her technique puts me off, and a second singer whose innate tone quality is off-putting, and no amount of technique for me will make up for that. One man's humble opinion. Talk amongst yourselves.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> George


Reasonable to mention Windgassen--he had one of the worse voices of the great heldentenors of the last century, with a persistent wheezy/whiney tone that always made him sound like an old man, even when he was at his peak. He of course made up for it with his intelligence, musicality and just sheer stamina and versatility.

But Wunderlich is in a completely different category--Windgassen was an echt-helden who could easily sing the two hardest Wagner roles on back to back nights with not even a slight audible strain, where Wunderlich was a light tenor who wisely never ventured beyond the very minor and light Wagner roles--Steersman in Dutchman and Shepherd in Tristan and the like. It's like comparing Schwarzkopf to Nilsson--of course Schwarzkopf or Wunderlich will sound lively and elegant comparatively but would be completely inaudible and screamy and strained if they ventured into Windgassen or Nilsson's repertoire.

To be fair, you have to at least compare like for like. I can totally understand pining for Lorenz or Melchior while listening to Windgassen but not Wunderlich.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I cannot disagree but must point out that, had Wunderlich lived a much longer life, he might have developed into a more prominent Wagnerian tenor -- to some degree, who knows, with that incredible technique and impeccable musicianship he possessed -- without smashing that unparalleled voice to shreds. No, Wunderlich would/could never have sung Tristan ... but maybe Siegmund or Lohengrin?


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

Actually, Windgassen is not usually considered a true heldentenor, in spite of a large voice and great stamina, because his voice was too bright. He is best characterised as a lirico-spinto. 
Anyway, I agee with you both and find his voice quite unpleasant, which is a pity because I have to listen to him when listening to so many of the best recordings of Wagner from the 50 and 60' - alas, he had too little competition!


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> He wasn't great in that Levine at the end of his career when he was overparted as Siegfried, but his voice sounded great a decade earlier in the Syberberg Parsifal in a role he was more apt for. One of the prettier Parsifals on disc (or film) actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are nice examples of unpleasant sound, still.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

antoniolopes said:


> Actually, Windgassen is not usually considered a true heldentenor, in spite of a large voice and great stamina, because his voice was too bright. He is best characterised as a lirico-spinto.
> Anyway, I agee with you both and find his voice quite unpleasant, which is a pity because I have to listen to him when listening to so many of the best recordings of Wagner from the 50 and 60' - alas, he had too little competition!


I've seen this argument before and consider it extremely silly. If Windgassen isn't a heldentenor, that means that the only heldentenors in history are Melchior and Lorenz, since they're the only ones who qualify under a restrictive enough definition to exclude the likes of Windgassen and Suthaus.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

antoniolopes said:


> These are nice examples of unpleasant sound, still.


If you consider these examples of unpleasant sound, what do you consider not unpleasant for these roles?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I've seen this argument before and consider it extremely silly. If Windgassen isn't a heldentenor, that means that the only heldentenors in history are Melchior and Lorenz, since they're the only ones who qualify under a restrictive enough definition to exclude the likes of Windgassen and Suthaus.


I don't see the logic of this. Whose restrictive definition? Whether Windgassen should or shouldn't be considered a heldentenor doesn't necessarily say anything about other singers. Personally, I'd be much more inclined to include Suthaus, whose voice was powerful, dark, and even in timbre, if perhaps not exactly beautiful by most standards. And what of Vickers? Surely a more heroic voice than Windgassen's, whether one likes the timbre or not (generally I do). There have indeed been few heldentenors in recent times, and I agree that Windgassen was not one of them; he had enough power and enough artistry to make an effective Siegfried and Tristan, but the tone never had the meat and ring of a real heroic tenor. Melchior, of course, was unique.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I don't see the logic of this. Whose restrictive definition? Whether Windgassen should or shouldn't be considered a heldentenor doesn't necessarily say anything about other singers. Personally, I'd be much more inclined to include Suthaus, whose voice was powerful, dark, and even in timbre, if perhaps not exactly beautiful by most standards. And what of Vickers? Surely a more heroic voice than Windgassen's, whether one likes the timbre or not (generally I do). There have indeed been few heldentenors in recent times, and I agree that Windgassen was not one of them; he had enough power and enough artistry to make an effective Siegfried and Tristan, but the tone never had the meat and ring of a real heroic tenor. Melchior, of course, was unique.


Entirely agree, especially about Suthaus, one of my favourite heldentenors.


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## antoniolopes (Feb 28, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> If you consider these examples of unpleasant sound, what do you consider not unpleasant for these roles?


Melchior, Treptow, Lorenz, Suthaus, Aldenhoff, Vinay, James King, Jerusalem, Heppner, Kaufmann...


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Interesting thread - it gives me an excuse to dust off a post I made a couple of years ago:

Can anybody explain the attraction that Peter Pears's voice has? The nearest I've heard that sounded like him floated through the mists the last time I was out fell walking. When the cloud lifted I saw that it wasn't a ghost, it was an elderly tubercular sheep. It was a good way off & its voice had a penetrating quality, and though little communication occurred I though to detect a recognizable word. "Baaad."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kangxi, off-topic but wonder if you saw this: "President Xi Jinping tells President Ma Ying-jeou: 'We are brothers who are still connected by our flesh even if our bones are broken.' "

BTW I like Peter Pear's voice in a lot of music I have by him.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

kangxi said:


> Interesting thread - it gives me an excuse to dust off a post I made a couple of years ago:
> 
> Can anybody explain the attraction that Peter Pears's voice has? The nearest I've heard that sounded like him floated through the mists the last time I was out fell walking. When the cloud lifted I saw that it wasn't a ghost, it was an elderly tubercular sheep. It was a good way off & its voice had a penetrating quality, and though little communication occurred I though to detect a recognizable word. "Baaad."


I went to a Pears master class many years ago. When he demonstrated a point he sang right forward which meant his tone tended to be nasel. Norman Lebrecht (not one to give a compliment when an nsult will do) damns Pears / Britten Wintereisse as a result. It seems that Pears (like Vickers, Callas, etc) had a tone that put some people off.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Kangxi, off-topic but wonder if you saw this: "President Xi Jinping tells President Ma Ying-jeou: 'We are brothers who are still connected by our flesh even if our bones are broken.' "
> 
> BTW I like Peter Pear's voice in a lot of music I have by him.


All that talk of bones and flesh makes me think he was hungry, both for food and Taiwan. Greedy *******. 
So: both you and DavidA below, as well as several posters on the other thread this cropped up on, like PP. I just don't get it: you can have all the musicality in the world but for me it's no good at all when the vehicle carrying it - in this case the human voice - is itself ugly. Melchior otoh could scream in terror from a burning plague building & I'd still listen in raptures.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Damn and bugger, some mischievous imp in the bowels of talkclassical asterisked me! All i did was cast doubt on Pres Xi's parentage. Bloody wouser.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

kangxi said:


> Damn and bugger, some mischievous imp in the bowels of talkclassical asterisked me! All i did was cast doubt on Pres Xi's parentage. Bloody wouser.


Hope you like my avatar. It's President Ma's evil twin.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Hope you like my avatar. It's President Ma's evil twin.


Emperor Ming is like a science fiction ruler should be.
I would love to see a Flash Gordon opera.

Max von Sydow comes by the way from the same province as Birgit Nilsson.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

kangxi said:


> All that talk of bones and flesh makes me think he was hungry, both for food and Taiwan. Greedy *******.
> So: both you and DavidA below, as well as several posters on the other thread this cropped up on, like PP. I just don't get it: you can have all the musicality in the world but for me it's no good at all when the vehicle carrying it - in this case the human voice - is itself ugly. Melchior otoh could scream in terror from a burning plague building & I'd still listen in raptures.


It is, of course, a subjective opinion about whether or not a certain voice is ugly. BTW if Melchior was screaming from a burning plague building it would be more charitable to call the fire brigade and the medics rather than listen in raptures!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't like Peter Pears' dry, nasal timbre either, but I usually find his intelligent artistry makes up for it. I feel somewhat the same way about Robert Tear. Is it just me, or is there something about English tenors? They often seem to have a leathery sort of tone with no squillo. You'd never mistake them for Italians. One that I really like, though, is Ian Partridge, an impeccable artist with an "English" but sweet, warm sound and beautiful articulation. I treasure his performance of Warlock's _Curlew._


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Falk Struckmann has an ugly voice to my ears, but he's a fine singer with a great career.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Falk Struckmann has an ugly voice to my ears, but he's a fine singer with a great career.


Thanks goodness for google an you tube.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Great singers whose voices to me are not intrinsically beautiful yet I adore every one of them as special:
Gobbi/Rysanek/Vickers/Callas and my very favorite singer of all, Olivero.
And then there is Licia Albanese..... :-(


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## russetvelvet (Oct 14, 2016)

Beauty (of timbre, at least) is really in the eyes of the beholder. I dearly love Ponselle's piano high C in this recording and think it's wondrous, while a friend of mine is equally strongly annoyed by it and compares it to "white noise"! What's interesting is that perhaps the very sound we love/hate might actually have a lot to do with the distortion of primitive recordings.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Good grief! Who on earth do you appreciate then?


Exactly what I was thinking!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I totally agree about the riveting Rysanek. Thrilling... yes. The very top is beautiful.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

russetvelvet said:


> Beauty (of timbre, at least) is really in the eyes of the beholder. I dearly love Ponselle's piano high C in this recording and think it's wondrous, while a friend of mine is equally strongly annoyed by it and compares it to "white noise"! What's interesting is that perhaps the very sound we love/hate might actually have a lot to do with the distortion of primitive recordings.


Like a lot of mezzos Ponselle's very top lost it's lushness and tended towards white. The rest of her voice was so dark, luscious, massive and of incredible beauty that I could indulge her those top two notes. At the other end she excelled most other sopranos except for Callas and Trauble in richness at the bottom. Jessye Norman's top had the same loss of quality.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Balthazar said:


> One voice that some apparently dislike but I think is wonderful is that of the late Licia Albanese.
> 
> Her _Manon Lescaut_ with Jussi Björling is unmatched.


 I heard Albanese sing when she was beginning her career at the Met and her voice was extraordinary. Hers was a voice that sounded overly mature before it's time I'm afraid.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love early Callas when she was fat and the voice had total support, but for the most part am not a fan of her after the late 50's. I'm sure she was riveting to watch live, though. There are a few things later on that I still find appealing like an aria from I Vespri Sicilani and some coloratura arias. such as Je Suis Titania and the Bell Song.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I heard Albanese sing when she was beginning her career at the Met and her voice was extraordinary. Hers was a voice that sounded overly mature before it's time I'm afraid.


Parenthetically, I've often wondered why conductor Jonel Perlea (1900-1970) made so few recordings. Wiki says he had a heart attack and a stroke in 1957, a year after recording _Rigoletto_ with Merrill, Bjorling and Peters (sounds like a good cast; anyone familiar with it?). He made only one opera recording after that, _Lucrezia Borgia_ in 1866, with Caballe, Kraus and Verrett.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love early Callas when she was fat and the voice had total support, but for the most part am not a fan of her after the late 50's. I'm sure she was riveting to watch live, though. There are a few things later on that I still find appealing like an aria from I Vespri Sicilani and some coloratura arias. such as Je Suis Titania and the Bell Song.


I actually like "late" Callas despite the painful high notes. With age her voice took on a dark, earthy, sultry quality, wonderfully effective in her _Carmen,_ and I find many of the French mezzo arias incomparable, especially those of Dalila, Charlotte, Orphee and Berlioz's Marguerite. After that, of course, the voice just collapsed. The last Verdi recordings are hard to excuse, and I haven't heard the duets with Di Stefano and intend never to listen to them.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't like Peter Pears' dry, nasal timbre either, but I usually find his intelligent artistry makes up for it. I feel somewhat the same way about Robert Tear. Is it just me, or is there something about English tenors? They often seem to have a leathery sort of tone with no squillo. You'd never mistake them for Italians. One that I really like, though, is Ian Partridge, an impeccable artist with an "English" but sweet, warm sound and beautiful articulation. I treasure his performance of Warlock's _Curlew._


I agree that one would never mistake an English tenor for an Italian tenor, and that the English tenor style is not to everyone's taste. But the real question is why Sweden produced two of the greatest tenors of all in Bjorling and Gedda?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I agree that one would never mistake an English tenor for an Italian tenor, and that the English tenor style is not to everyone's taste. But the real question is why Sweden produced two of the greatest tenors of all in Bjorling and Gedda?


Why is that surprising? There have been many, many great Scandinavian singers. Bjorling and Gedda don't sound Italian either. Apparently, Bjorling was not especially popular in Italy. I suspect he didn't scream, gulp and sob enough for their taste. Either that, or they resented the fact that the world's best tenor wasn't one of their own.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I actually like "late" Callas despite the painful high notes. With age her voice took on a dark, earthy, sultry quality, wonderfully effective in her_Carmen,_ and I find many of the French mezzo arias incomparable, especially those of Dalila, Charlotte, Orphee and Berlioz's Marguerite. After that, of course, the voice just collapsed. The last Verdi recordings are hard to excuse, and I haven't heard the duets with Di Stefano and intend never to listen to them.


I agree with this with regards to her mezzo work rather than her soprano rep.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Fantastic photo. I can just feel that voice resonating inside me when I look at it. Of all her recordings, this may be my favorite:


This must be her best photo. I think you get a sense of the size and beauty of Ponselle's voice more in the La Vestale recording than any other. Yes to the quoted author the voice is very dark, but also very very resonant so the darkness doesn't make the sound fall flat in the house.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

English tenors often also do character tenor roles (like Shuisky), but some do sound really beautiful (like the late Philip Langridge). I mean, what are Britten roles even, fach-wise? Not quite lyric, not quite character tenors, and I really wish Heldentenors stayed the hell away from Grimes. They don't do "ambiguously shady but vulnerable" well and they generally went to the William Shatner school of acting.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

In comes the William Shatner society, toupees all.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

Man, a little rug humor and splat goes the thread


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

For me the thread title is a contradiction. I believe one can be a good singer with an unpleasant voice. I believe one can be a great artist with an unpleasant voice. But with an unpleasant voice I do not believe one can be a truly great singer. A pleasant voice is a prerequisite to great singing imho.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

I might have agreed but.. just over the last couple of weeks....
Listening to the Callas/Gobbi Rigoletto. Gobbi would have been a top contender to me for the unpleasant voice category. So I've also been listening to the Scotto/Bastianini recording. Bastianini, lots of voice, lots of gorgeous voice. 
But I think I'll take Gobbi. I hear Rigoletto in his performance, rough tone and all.
So I think Gobbi does great singing, gives me the role complete, with a voice that's inherently unattractive, I think. I do worry sometimes, as the old recordings do injustice to some singers. All the singers on the Scotto/Kraus/Bastianini Rigoletto are set in a sound stage that somewhat flattens out the voices. The most convincing example of this for me is the Pristine remastering of I Puritani, where Rossi-Lemini just sounds marvelous, and he almost never does in the EMI recordings.

Not so easy, I guess.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

mparta said:


> I might have agreed but.. just over the last couple of weeks....
> Listening to the Callas/Gobbi Rigoletto. Gobbi would have been a top contender to me for the unpleasant voice category. So I've also been listening to the Scotto/Bastianini recording. Bastianini, lots of voice, lots of gorgeous voice.
> But I think I'll take Gobbi. I hear Rigoletto in his performance, rough tone and all.
> So I think Gobbi does great singing, gives me the role complete, with a voice that's inherently unattractive, I think. I do worry sometimes, as the old recordings do injustice to some singers. All the singers on the Scotto/Kraus/Bastianini Rigoletto are set in a sound stage that somewhat flattens out the voices. The most convincing example of this for me is the Pristine remastering of I Puritani, where Rossi-Lemini just sounds marvelous, and he almost never does in the EMI recordings.
> ...


For me Gobbi belongs in the 'great artist' category rather than 'great singer'. I understand that most don't separate the two so I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with me on this. But sticking with Verdi baritones I consider someone like Merrill a great singer with the most beautiful voice of any baritone on record, but not a great artist. And someone like M. Battistini to be both great singer and artist. But all this depends on our individual definitions of greatness I suppose.


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## Richard di Calatrava (Nov 12, 2020)

Admiral said:


> Since I brought up Sherrill Milnes the other day, I'll suggest his voice.
> 
> He is one of my favorite singers; I think he is the perfect Verdian baritone but, strangely, I wasn't ever in love with the instrument itself.


Ah, no - it's a gorgeous voice...and sometimes Mr. Milnes was content to treat us to that in favour of a fully-rounded dramatic characterisation! He was usually much more involving live than in the studio; worth doing some comparisons (start with Ri goletto...). Although the voice was very different, Piero Cappuccilli presented much the same problem!


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Rangstrom said:


> Gwyneth Jones was too shrill for my taste.


Totally agree.
I never liked Agnes Baltsa either


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Richard di Calatrava said:


> Ah, no - it's a gorgeous voice...and sometimes Mr. Milnes was content to treat us to that in favour of a fully-rounded dramatic characterisation! He was usually much more involving live than in the studio; worth doing some comparisons (start with Ri goletto...). Although the voice was very different, Piero Cappuccilli presented much the same problem!


Since you mention both Milnes and Cappuccilli, I will weigh in with my thoughts about them. Milnes was coming to the end of his career when I was getting into opera and so was a permanent fixture in Met broadcasts seen in the UK. I liked him from the get go due to his being dramatically convincing. He then turned up in a number of recordings I bought (usually with Domingo and sometimes with Price, sometimes with Scotto and I liked his work on disc). It wasn't his voice that did it for me, but rather his commitment to the role. On the other hand Cappuccilli never caught me until I heard his Boccanegra recording (and I also like him in the Sutherland/Pavarotti Puritani). He seems like a pleasant voice singing nice songs.

I had never really thought of the two as a contrasting pair until a singing teacher of mine said that most people preferred Milnes when they were both singing, but she thought he had an unpleasant voice and much preferred Cappuccilli. I then did a straight comparison between the two of them in the same pieces and realised that she was right, however I preferred Milnes' interpretations. He may have been smoother or more resonant at times, but in general Milnes is exactly my idea of unpleasant voice, great singer.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Licia Albanese was a big talent but her voice began sounding like an old woman early on. Early in her career it was beautiful.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Licia Albanese was a big talent but her voice began sounding like an old woman early on. Early in her career it was beautiful.


This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I feel much the same about Olivero. For all the artistry, for all the strong technique, the voice sounds old to me in some of the late recordings. I hear it in the studio *Fedora*, when she would after all have been around 60!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I feel much the same about Olivero. For all the artistry, for all the strong technique, the voice sounds old to me in some of the late recordings. I hear it in the studio *Fedora*, when she would after all have been around 60!


*Magda Olivero* sure had an old fashioned sound, like *Toti dal Monte* and in my view, so did *Aprille Millo*. Their teachers probably handed down old vocal methods, perhaps? The Marchesi school, or the Garcia method?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I feel much the same about Olivero. For all the artistry, for all the strong technique, the voice sounds old to me in some of the late recordings. I hear it in the studio *Fedora*, when she would after all have been around 60!


I think you have a point. I used to feel the same way you do about female voices and whether the sound reflected the age of the character. It's something that has bothered me less and less, the more I listen, though. Perhaps it was due to seeing Kabaivanska's final Butterfly and seeing how she managed to convince that she was only 15 by use of gesture alone (the voice wasn't what it had been and even in her prime she didn't sound like a young girl. Perhaps the only singer to really sound the right age for Butterfly was De los Angeles and so I am happy to suspend my disbelief when others are in the role and get lost in some great singing and fine interpretation.

There is still a limit beyond which a soprano or mezzo sounds too 'matronly'. (Your recent example of Gorr as Dalila is a good one.) Olivero did sound older later on, but I have more tolerance for that due to the gains from the artistry and I don't view Fedora as necessarily young (but it all depends on _how_ old Olivero sounds to one's ears).

(Now you've made me want to put on one of my three Olivero Fedoras!)

N.


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## Wuhan Wullie (Jan 1, 2021)

For me the late Fishy-Disco is a _great_ singer whose voice I heartily dislike. No offence to the many who hold him in high esteem, but I study to avoid him nowadays (not so easily done given his voluminous discography).


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

German baritones like Hotter and Fischer-Dieskau, great interpreters as those two were, tend not to float my boat; something about the “woofiness” of their timbres. But those are really the only two that I can think of that I dislike their voices so much that I can’t look past it (and I occasionally even listen to Hotter’s justly famous, deeply moving renditions of BWV 82 and Winterreise). Generally I value a great interpretation over mere sound and enjoy listening to the performances of certain singers who may not have had quintessentially “attractive” voices but whom could really dig into the heart of a text and communicate it with soul: Schwarzkopf, Schreier, Flagstad, and, of course, Callas come to mind.


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

There are many singers that are great interpreters with unpleasant voices or timbres...

1. Jon Vickers.
2. Ramon Vinay.
3. Maria Callas. 1958 -1965
4. Brigitte Fassbaender.
5. Josef Greindl.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Honestly, it would be far shorter to list the singers whose timbres I actually find to be intrinsically beautiful. Classical vocal music, especially opera, is extremely demanding. It pulls the voice in many directions that the voice would rather avoid and subjects it to any number of outlandish stresses totally alien to other forms of singing, not to mention speaking or reciting. The best classical singers often have a combination of stretchiness and steel that simply does not shine in simpler, calmer music, where intrinsic beauty of tone is most obvious.

As an example, I consider Jussi Björling to be the best singer of all time, and he's probably my second or third favorite singer in any genre, period. I have over 400 of his recordings. He is the man who inspired me to sing classical music. Nevertheless, I find his basic timbre to be alien and off-putting. So why do I find him to be the best? His voice withstands the strain of classical music better than any other, in my ears (especially before 1950). Throughout his long prime, he doesn't scoop, or wobble, or rasp, or sing flat. He is equally beautiful at fortissimo and pianissimo. Good fioritura, including trill. He is far from perfect, as every classical singer has a very long list of flaws (singing is hard), but I think he's the closest of those who recorded.

John McCormack is another top-five singer for me, and I find his voice to often be downright ugly. But it's what you do with the voice that really counts. Ward Marston's restoration of McCormack's "Charm Me Asleep" is one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard in my life.

For me, an intrinsically beautiful voice would sound amazing singing a simple ballad, and just the voice itself would give a frisson. My preference in this case would be a dark, round, velvety voice that does not sacrifice firmness or ring, but is easy in emission and almost lightly produced.

So, my list of favorite voices, prioritizing basic sound over technical fluency:

Norman Treigle
Giorgio Tozzi
Jānis Zābers 
Fritz Wunderlich
Giuseppe Bellantoni
Robert Merrill
Charles Cambon
Robert McFerrin
Kerstin Thorborg
Thomas L. Thomas
Nelson Eddy
Oscar Natzka
Miguel Fleta


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## skealey99 (4 mo ago)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> excellent singers whose timbres I lack appreciation for are
> 1) Enrico Caruso
> 2) Giuseppe di Stefano
> 3) Beverly Sills
> ...


Have to agree with Nina...this did catch my eye for the same reason!


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## skealey99 (4 mo ago)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I shall elaborate a bit
> 
> 
> another one for the list: *Rosa Ponselle:* her timbre always sounded mildly unpleasant to me, and somewhat swallowed like Tebaldi


Now you're really just trying to get a response😆!!!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

PaulFranz said:


> So, my list of favorite voices, prioritizing basic sound over technical fluency:
> 
> Norman Treigle
> Giorgio Tozzi
> ...


I saw this list and instantly thought "wait...these are singers whose voices you _don't _like? Surely I missed something". Glad I reread before replying haha.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Agamenon said:


> There are many singers that are great interpreters with unpleasant voices or timbres...
> 
> 1. Jon Vickers.


Yes ! I avoid him. I know Callas liked him etc, I have had some back and forth on this topic before. It didn't change my preferences.

I also remembered Ettore Bastianini, and how villainous he sounded as Barnaba on La Gioconda recording with Cerquetti, del Monaco and Simionato from 1957. It was weird hearing him as a neutral character (Marcello ?) in La Bohéme afterwards. But I guess he eventually doesn't belong to this thread, I would not avoid him, I would seek him out.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Yes ! I avoid him. I know Callas liked him etc, I have had some back and forth on this topic before. It didn't change my preferences.


I guess we all hear things differently. I love Vickers. I suppose you might call his voice and method idiosyncratic, but that's one of the things I like about him. That and the intensity of his performances. A very great artist.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I guess we all hear things differently. I love Vickers. I suppose you might call his voice and method idiosyncratic, but that's one of the things I like about him. That and the intensity of his performances. A very great artist.


I'm a Vickers fan too, but not in all repertoire. In general I don't care for him in French opera. But I think he was generally smart enough to avoid roles his voice, technique and temperament would overwhelm.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm a Vickers fan too, but not in all repertoire. In general I don't care for him in French opera. But I think he was generally smart enough to avoid roles his voice, technique and temperament would overwhelm.


In general I don't either, but I much prefer the live *Samson et Dalila* from Covent Garden with Verrett as Dalila to the studio one with Gorr. He and Verrett are a powerful coupling. I also really like hs Aeneas, which he sang quite a lot and did of course on Davis's Philips recording.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> In general I don't either, but I much prefer the live *Samson et Dalila* from Covent Garden with Verrett as Dalila to the studio one with Gorr. He and Verrett are a powerful coupling. I also really like hs Aeneas, which he sang quite a lot and did of course on Davis's Philips recording.


I've not heard his Benvenuto Cellini. What do you think of it?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I've not heard his Benvenuto Cellini. What do you think of it?


I didn't know he'd sung it. I'd have thought it lay too high for him.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I've not heard his *Benvenuto Cellini*. What do you think of it?





Tsaraslondon said:


> I didn't know he'd sung it. I'd have thought it lay too high for him.


It's a fan recording from a vintage '75 LP - Not too bad a transfer, could have been better -

Benvenuto Cellini by Hector Berlioz performed in English Conductor Sarah Caldwell - 1975 Orchestra - The Opera Company of Boston Chorus - The Opera Company of Boston Benvenuto Cellini - Jon Vickers Balducci - Gimi Beni Fieramosca - John Reardon Le Pape Clément VII - Donald Gramm Francesco - Joey Evans Bernadino - Ralph Griffin Pompeo - Ralph Griffin Teresa - Patricia Wells Cabaretier - David Evitts Ascanio - Nancy Williams Cassandro - Hank Chapin A metal-worker - David Waite



Spoiler: Jon Vickers Benvenuto Cellini - Full opera i (1975 live in English)











"“This abbreviated (by about 25 minutes), sung-in-English, live performance of CELLINI was taped in Boston in 1975; it’s primarily… of interest to fans of Jon Vickers. Sarah Caldwell’s conducting is exciting and disciplined, and despite its live origin the opera never seems on the verge of falling apart in the big ensembles - a real achievement. Vickers is thrilling in the exclamatory passages and his enunciation is impeccable - but he nevertheless seems miscast. He sings the role as if it were Aeneas. His big last-act aria is cut and we don’t miss it: the top of his voice is not at its best here and it only would have showcased the problem - he cracks on high notes more than once.”

Robert Levine, Classics Today









Benvenuto Cellini (Berlioz) (Caldwell; Jon Vickers, Donald Gramm, John Reardon) (2-VAI 1214)


OP0594. BENVENUTO CELLINI (Berlioz), Live Performance, 1975, Boston, w.Sarah Caldwell Cond. Boston Opera Ensemble; Jon Vickers, Donald Gramm, John Reardon, Gimi Beni, etc. 2-VAI 1214. Very long out-of-print, Final Sealed Copy! - 089948121428 CRITIC REVIEWS: “This abbreviated (by about...



www.norpete.com





"He identified intensely with the characters he portrayed, especially misfits, like Peter Grimes, and misunderstood heroes, like Verdi’s Otello, who are outwardly strong but struggling against brutal destinies. Yet he readily admitted that in taking risks and giving his all, his singing could be inconsistent and uncontrolled. That Mr. Vickers lost himself in his roles did not surprise those who knew him. He was a volatile and enigmatic person, in many ways decent and principled, but hot-tempered and quick to jump on any perceived slight.

The soprano Birgit Nilsson, the great Isolde to his Tristan, said that Mr. Vickers ‘was almost always unhappy’, and that his ‘nerves were outside the skin, not inside the skin’, as she told Jeannie Williams, the author of JON VICKERS: A HERO’S LIFE.

For years Mr. Vickers resisted the role of Wagner’s Tristan, to the frustration of Birgit Nilsson, the great Isolde of her day, who had been searching for a powerhouse tenor who could match her in the opera. Mr. Vickers finally came through in Buenos Aires in 1971, singing Tristan to Ms. Nilsson’s Isolde. It was a triumph. They went on to sing it many times, though not as often as Ms. Nilsson had hoped. ‘I told him at the time that I waited and waited for my Tristan for 14 years’, Ms. Nilsson told THE NEW YORK TIMES, ‘as long as Jacob waited for Rachel in the Bible’. He sang the role just twice at the Met, and only one of those was with Ms. Nilsson, on 30 Jan., 1974.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

antoniolopes said:


> Hi!
> I'd like to know what people think about great singers from the present and past who made it in spite of ugly or at least not beautiful basic timbres - and perhaps also about the not so greats that pop up in spite of this. I propose to beguin by skipping the classic example: la Divina.


Huguette Tourangeau


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

I don't think Vickers' voice was particularly unpleasant. It's his tendency to scoop and croon that bothers me, esp. in French music. I think his Énée in Les Troyens had the right weight and color, but the style? _Meh_! Listen to the_ Inutiles regrets _by Thill and compare with Vickers. It's a day-and-night difference.

But he is undeniably great in Wagner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ You speak for me here.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I don't think Vickers' voice was particularly unpleasant. It's his tendency to scoop and croon that bothers me, esp. in French music. I think his Énée in Les Troyens had the right weight and color, but the style? _Meh_! Listen to the_ Inutiles regrets _by Thill and compare with Vickers. It's a day-and-night difference.
> 
> But he is undeniably great in Wagner.


In his early recital of Italian arias for RCA with Serafin conducting, I think the voice is actually very beautiful. I find it one of the most satisfying tenor recitals I've ever heard. I recommend it most highly










Jon Vickers – Italian Opera Arias


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The young Vickers is also terrific in the Beecham _Messiah. _He makes every other tenor sound wimpy.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I was interested in Tsaraslondon's selection but it isn't available on YouTube - I'm hoping that this might be somewhat comparable and serve as a good introduction - 










Link to label authorized complete recording - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mpFurgLLq8IvTegmFuQxuCxMH2UNzk1fg


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

I should post something more in the spirit of the thread, too: there are some great singers whose timbres I find especially ugly.

1. Kurt Baum: insane power and high notes, but inconsistent and with that timbre...I don't listen to him.
2. Helge Rosvaenge: very, very talented singer, but Corellian mannerisms (especially as he aged) + the timbre mean I don't listen to him either, unless it's alongside Schlusnus.
3. Hermann Jadlowker: If he weren't capable of such amazing vocal feats, he'd exhaust my patience.
4. Enrico Caruso: Has many redeeming qualities. I have gotten sort of used to him.

I think a lot of people agree with me on the first two, probably on the third, and most would crucify me for the fourth.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I am adding Nicolei Gedda, at least on some recordings.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I don't think Vickers' voice was particularly unpleasant. It's his tendency to scoop and croon that bothers me, esp. in French music. I think his Énée in Les Troyens had the right weight and color, but the style? _Meh_! Listen to the_ Inutiles regrets _by Thill and compare with Vickers. It's a day-and-night difference.
> 
> But he is undeniably great in Wagner.


Just speaking of the sound of Vickers voice I have always found it to be a beautiful voice! As a singer of the music I hear a universal response that ranges from great frustration to the greatest of admiration. But I’ve always found the sound beautiful


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The singer this question makes me think of is one whose name I see on here infrequently… James McCracken. I heard Anthony Tomasini refer to him as the great James McCracken. I’ve always felt that had He chosen the career of a German tenor , where the expectations of a beautiful timbre are considerably less, his star would have shown more brightly. Tannhauser was by far my favorite performance of his. I’ve always enjoyed his recording of Floristans aria, even though that is a place where I do have some expectations of beauty. As it was, singing the biggest Italian and French rolls, he had a major metropolitan opera career and made recordings. Having said all this, when I think of the sound of James McCracken‘s voice, the sound that goes off in my head is most decidedly an unpleasant voice. Effortful, often constricted, and without an innately attractive timbre. I’ve often wondered how far reaching his career actually was. He made recordings but not really that many. And he sang so much at the Met that his stature in the operatic world could appear misleading To someone in New York if he didn’t really sing around at other opera houses that much.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> In his early recital of Italian arias for RCA with Serafin conducting, I think the voice is actually very beautiful. I find it one of the most satisfying tenor recitals I've ever heard. I recommend it most highly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You made me revisit this recital, and I really enjoyed it. The scoop and croon were still there, but they were no worse than Corelli's and di Stefano's, so why bother? He might not have an Italianate voice, but the intensity he brought to the music is unique. 

In Verdi, I like the young Vickers a lot in Don Carlos (live performance under Giulini). There was also a live Ballo, and for once, he made the role of Gustavo sound interesting to me.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Gwyneth Jones and Leonie Rysanek. Both were apparently electrifying onstage but I've never liked either of them.


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