# Mahler Symphony 5



## Mecc (Jul 2, 2018)

Dear All,

I was listening to Mahler 5 and I came up with a few questions to help me understand this music better.
1. Are there any themes belonging to this music? (both for the whole symphony and for particular movements ex. Conflicts in Nature)?
2. I am aware that this symphony is part of Mahler's second compositional period. What do you think was the reason for this change in the composer's outlook of life? (some say Alma Mahler, others say the discovery of Bach's counterpoint. I would love to hear what you think and if you have any new ideas)

Do you have any other points, tips, comments or suggestions (even links) to help me understand better what I am listening to. 

Thanks in anticipation,

Mecc


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2018)

My approach to music is not to pay much attention to extra-musical elements. The "theme" is a journey from a grim funeral march to a triumphant conclusion. The Chorale theme which tentatively enters in the turbulent second movement attains its full flower in the coda of the last movement. 

Generally speaking, the only circumstance when I pay much attention to biographical associations in music is when the composer dies before finishing it. Mahler 10, Bruckner 9, etc.

Of course, that's my own way of listening.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Baron Scarpia said:


> The "theme" is a journey from a grim funeral march to a triumphant conclusion.


True. Movements 1 and 2 are dark, sad, tragic funeral music. Is it a protest of death, is it grief and anger at mortality, or is it the grief we all face, as we grow up, in having to put away childish things? Or maybe it is just music, because there is no overt programming or poetry being portrayed as in the previous symphonies; it is tighter and more structured with clear textures.

Movement 3 is a Viennese waltz, a dance of life, maybe showing the triumph of the will over fate. Anyway, it is an outburst of energy. It is the longest scherzo in history, where opposing forces meet and transform but don't resolve.

Movement 4 begins the last section, with its sense of longing but also with a sense of a smile, quoting from two of his Ruckert lieder. The 5th movement is exhuberant, hopeful, and joyful. As opposed to the symphony being listed as being in C# minor, the key of the last movement is a bright D major.

This is his only symphony to adopt a pattern where the weight is not on the first or last but in the middle movement.

As to anything autobiographical, it is interesting that he suffered a near-fatal hemorrhage in 1901, and that year he began this symphony. Also, as to the fourth movement, from what I understand (I think Mengelberg said this), he was attracted to Alma Schindler, who wouldn't pay much attention to him until he sent her the adagietto without any comment. I suppose she picked up on its expression of longing for what could be, with the Tristan and Isolde gaze theme embedded within it, because afterward, she sent a letter for him to come see her.

Regardless of that, the symphony is in a new orchestral idiom, using familiar fanfares and marches dances and songs in a new melodic syntax and harmony.

One book which helped me getting introduced to Mahler's symphonies is David Hurwitz's The Mahler Symphonies, An Owner's Manual. He goes blow by blow through each symphony in a nontechnical way, and it's clear that he loves these works.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Just listen to it. And either like it, or dislike it -- all or in parts. Then do it again, until you don't feel like it any more. There is nothing in it you are required to "get."


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Mahler's style was constantly evolving - no two symphonies are alike. If anything distinguishes M5 from the previous works, it's his tremendous use of counterpoint, something he wasn't that strong at (and he knew it). It also represents a stunning new approach to orchestration and to make its full effect needs a virtuoso orchestra. Played by amateurs, it's horrible. It's his most abstract symphony - no story or extra-musical associations behind it, except maybe in the Adagietto. The Fifth is also the one that can trip up more conductors than the others. It was Bernstein's weakest entry in his first cycle and he wasn't alone in messing it up. In my opinion there are a few essential recordings: Bruno Walter with the NYPO, John Barbirolli with the Berlin Philharmonic, and for shear orchestral virtuosity, Georg Solti with Chicago.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Someone I was talking to at the record store told me that part of either Mahler 5 or Mahler 1 has a melody that was incorporated into the Star Trek theme music (original series). Don't know if it is true, and I have listened to both enough that I should have noticed.


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## GeorgeMcW (Jun 4, 2018)

Along with 7th, the most life-affirming of Mahler's symphonies, I think.

A quote from Mahler written to Natalie Bauer-Lechner, his lover/muse before Alma, in the summer of 1901: 
_"It's beyond words, the way I am constantly learning more and more from Bach (really sitting at his feet like a child): for my natural way of working is Bach-like"_
- which marks the end of his _Wunderhorn_ years, and beginning his middle period (5th - 7th).

February 1901 - suffered a life-threatening heart condition (which eventually killed him)
In the summer he began work on the 5th symphony, wrote his last song from Das Knaben Wunderhorn ("Der Tamboursg'sell" - The Drummer Boy - August + started work on _Kindertotenlieder_ and _Ruckert Lieder_. Busy summer!! 
Met Alma on 7th Nov 1902, and by Christmas they were engaged. 
9th March 1902 - Mahler and Alma married.

Not sure if this helps or hinders, that's up to you to decide.

Enjoy listening!


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2018)

One thing I have always found that helps me to enjoy a piece of music is through finding an interpretation that is particularly interesting, particularly good, or draws on things which I am unconsciously attracted to in music. A conductor like Boulez can bring out a sense of a cohesive, dramaturgical arc throughout the course of a Mahler movement or symphony, for example, but also from moment to moment he can bring out wonderful instrumental colours in the score. Perhaps you can find an interpretation that aligns to particular non-musical themes? I am not really sure how that could work but but some creative personal interpretation of what you think Mahler is doing could allow you to make some analogies for yourself.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

shirime said:


> One thing I have always found that helps me to enjoy a piece of music is through finding an interpretation that is particularly interesting, particularly good, or draws on things which I am unconsciously attracted to in music. A conductor like Boulez can bring out a sense of a cohesive, dramaturgical arc throughout the course of a Mahler movement or symphony, for example, but also from moment to moment he can bring out wonderful instrumental colours in the score. Perhaps you can find an interpretation that aligns to particular non-musical themes? I am not really sure how that could work but but some creative personal interpretation of what you think Mahler is doing could allow you to make some analogies for yourself.


Agree. His version of the Mahler 6th stands apart on its own from all other versions I've heard, and the only one I can connect with for that symphony. Klemperer for 2, 4, 7, and 9 for me. Barbirolli presents the 5th in a very logical way underlining the structure which for me is most important with Romantic music. Some conductors are too loose in their interpretations like Klieber, and turn the music into a mess.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Agree. His version of the Mahler 6th stands apart on its own from all other versions I've heard, and the only one I can connect with for that symphony. Klemperer for 2, 4, 7, and 9 for me. Barbirolli presents the 5th in a very logical way underlining the structure which for me is most important with Romantic music. Some conductors are too loose in their interpretations like Klieber, and turn the music into a mess.


I've never heard Kleiber make a mess...............


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Frank Shipway conducted a fine Mahler 5 with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra .

https://www.allmusic.com/album/mahler-symphony-no-5-mw0001838716


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Symphonies Five, Six and Seven have been referred to as the "Ruckert Symphonies", because of their shared chronology and some shared themes (less so in No.6, admittedly) Whether or not Mahler was directly referencing various songs (the Adagietto has some shared material with the most beautiful of the Ruckert-Lieder "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen") or whether he was working on too many pieces at one time, I don't know. These "quotes" are always worth listening out for, as they - intentionally or not - give his works a type of unity. So is the opening of the Fifth a quote from the first movement of No.4, or vice versa? 

The Fifth even has some Wunderhorn remnants in it, but I am really not sure whether these have "meaning" either.....


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mahler 5 was my gateway to Mahler. The first I heard, and I was really wowed by it almost from the start. It was the Barbirolli recording (got from the local library). It was also possibly the first piece of music that I actually introduced to my father! And he was wowed by it in just the same way. We then began our very different Mahler journeys and I must say that for quite a while none of the others, except perhaps the 9th, seemed as successful or as wonderful.

I hear it differently now that I love all but one of the Mahler symphonies (and DLVDE). It seems to be (for me) the Mahler symphony that is the least rewarding to hear from a variety of conductors (normally each with their very different but distinctive - it must be distinctive - approaches). So many seem to do the same things with it (with varying degrees of success) and there are a good few I could recommend but which are all essentially similar. I do agree with the Shipway recommendation, partly because it seems a surprise (_who?_) but it is a triumph. I still love the Barbirolli but doesn't he lose the thread a little in the last movement? It is a symphony where I think the later and more plush of Bernstein's two recordings (the one with the VPO) is better than his New York recording. I think the same of his second bash at the 6th - very grim account of that work - when normally I prefer his earlier recordings. Boulez's "objectivity" (whatever that means) _is _an effective alternative, I think, but I would hate to be without recordings that really punch you in the gut when the whole things starts after the solitary trumpet solo and which doesn't let you go until the relief of the marvelous (and rather un-Mahlerian?) scherzo! One recording - highly regarded in places - that I really _don't_ like is Barshai's!

What is the music about? I have no idea but it does end more optimistically than much Mahler and might be the one where Mahler comes the closest to "classical discipline". It is big but quite "neat", less sprawling.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Mahler's 5th symphony, like most of them, begins with a long death march. As a young boy Mahler was oft-exposed to death and attended many funerals where such lengthy marches were heard. This had a powerful affect on him early in life and was rehashed repeatedly in his symphonies, almost all of which begin with a lengthy funereal march. 

This style became a musical signature akin to what we now know as post traumatic stress disorder. It was complicated later in Mahler's life by the death of his daughter and his own impending mortality that drove the 9th symphony.

Mahler was also greatly influenced by nature and that shows its face repeatedly in symphonic vocal texts and Das Lied von der Erde. But his demonic obsessions with death continued unabated throughout his life.

Personally, I find the 5th -- outside the 1st -- as Mahler's most compact and "perfect" symphony. It is one of the few that, in my opinion, flows naturally from movement to movement and development within movements and is an organic whole that doesn't repeat itself or go on too long. Many, perhaps most, of Mahler's other symphonies come to natural ending points in the score and then go on.

The 5th is also basically an optimistic symphony with an ending that signals hope for the future. This is very, very different from his next one, the 6th, which ends with hammer blows that strike down man. 

Another issue resolved in the 5th is it has no questionable content. The 1st, for example, can have 4 or 5 movements. The 2nd comes to a natural conclusion in the finale and runs on 25 more minutes. The 3rd is a cantata surrounded by a symphony. The 4th is a strange mixture of stop and go and a child's view of heaven. The 6th can end two different ways. The 7th is just strange, in 5 movements with 2 "night music" movements. The 8th has an idiotic vocal score. The 9th is a threnody on death surrounding bizarre jokes. The various attempts to complete his sketches of the 10th symphony dramatically demonstrate its incompleteness.

The 5th has none of this. I think for these and other reasons the 5th symphony is Mahler's greatest.

I've heard dozens of recordings including all the most hyped (Walter, Barbirolli, Solti, etc.) My favored recordings over the years have been Levine with the glorious Philadelphia Orchestra of Ormandy, whose commitment to the excesses of Mahler doesn't overwhelm the music. Neither does Levine's 12-minute adagietto which some think too slow/long. I also enjoy Vaclav Neumann's more literal version from Leipzig and Harold Faberman's less-well known version with London Symphony.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Someone I was talking to at the record store told me that part of either Mahler 5 or Mahler 1 has a melody that was incorporated into the Star Trek theme music (original series). Don't know if it is true, and I have listened to both enough that I should have noticed.


Here's an interesting YouTube video tracing the Star Trek opening to Mahler's 1st, which was taken from Brahms's 2nd, which was influenced by Beethoven's 4th.






What the video misses is, in this next clip, in Mahler's 7th, at the 11:05 minute mark, the trumpet call sounds suspiciously like the opening horn part in the Star Trek theme.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> Here's an interesting YouTube video tracing the Star Trek opening to Mahler's 1st, which was taken from Brahms's 2nd, which was influenced by Beethoven's 4th.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that first video was quite fascinating. Yes that horn in the second video does it too.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Just listen to it. And either like it, or dislike it -- all or in parts. Then do it again, until you don't feel like it any more. *There is nothing in it you are required to "get."*


Well, yeah, there sort of is. If you miss the connections between the second movement and the finale the Baron has pointed out in #2, you are failing to hear the symphony's central thread.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

"The Fifth is an accursed work. No one understands it.... I wish I could conduct the first performance 50 years after my death!"-- Gustav Mahler before the 5th's Cologne premiere in 1904 (the composer had already conducted a read through with the Vienna Philharmonic that hadn't gone well).

I wonder what Mahler would have thought about the way his 5th Symphony gets conducted in our digital era? Of the conductors that he knew and worked with, only Willem Mengelberg and Bruno Walter left recorded accounts of the 5th, and in Mengleberg's case, he recorded only the Adagio.

According to Mengelberg, Mahler told him that the Adagio was a "love song" to his wife, Alma (Mahler met and married Alma in 1901-02). Therefore, Mahler evidently discussed the Adagio with Mengelberg, and likely the whole symphony, during the years that Mahler guest conducted at the Concertgebouw between 1903 and 1910, when Mengelberg was the principal conductor. As reported, Mengelberg would sit in the hall while Mahler rehearsed, and the two would discuss the symphonies at length. Indeed Mengelberg's conducting score of Mahler's 4th symphony contains many pencil markings and remarks by Mahler himself. Mengleberg also must have witnessed Mahler conduct the 5th, as Mahler conducted the symphony in Amsterdam in 1906.

Curiously, apart from the old-fashioned violin slides that Mengelberg employs in the Adagio, I find his approach to this movement fairly similar to Walter's. For example, both conductors take the Adagio briskly compared to today's conductors--Walter at 8:04 and Mengelberg at 7:08! In other words, they didn't see this movement as some long drawn out, self-indulgent expression of emotion. After hearing their approach, I'd have to say that the more slowly a modern conductor takes this movement, the less passionate it feels to me, and the more the 'love song' narrative loses its way & becomes diminished (even splinters apart). Yet the music must be tender and intimate as well, of course, so it can't be too quick either, a balance must be found. (Something to consider when you listen to various recordings.)

A further connection between Alma and the Adagio appears in a letter that Alma wrote to Mengelberg, which included a poem written to her by Mahler, which she tied to the Adagio:

""Wie ich Dich liebe, Du meine Sonne,
ich kann mit Worten Dir's nicht sagen.
Nur meine Sehnsucht kann ich Dir klagen
und meine Liebe, meine Wonne!"

(How much I love you, you my sun,
I cannot tell you that with words.
I can only lament to you my longing
and my love, my bliss!)"*

Indeed, as Constantine Floros points out (along with others on this thread), in the middle of the Adagio there is a passage that resembles the "gaze motif" in Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde": 













The other conductor that had possible contact with Mahler's conducting and left recordings of the 5th was Hermann Scherchen. Scherchen didn't know or work closely with Mahler--unlike Walter and Mengelberg, but is it thought that as a young man Scherchen played in an orchestra that Mahler conducted. Therefore, I find it very interesting that Scherchen's approach to Mahler is neither distorted or drawn out or heavily indulgent, either.










Another "authentic" approach to Mahler's music can be heard in the recordings of Frederick Charles Adler, who was one of Mahler's proteges. Adler served as the choral master for the premiere of the 8th, which Mahler himself conducted (with a young Leopold Stokowski sitting in the audience). It may surprise a few Leonard Bernstein fans, but Adler's Mahler conducting at the Saratoga Festival in New York strongly influenced the young Bernstein in his formative years--and to my ears, Adler's influence on Bernstein's 1st Mahler cycle is stronger than Walter's. While Adler didn't record the 5th, unfortunately, he did record the Adagio from the 10th in 1952, and like Walter & Mengleberg, he keeps the music moving (and doesn't shy away from employing violin slides either):






More clues can be heard in Mahler's own 1905 piano roll recording of the opening Trauermarsch movement to the 5th, which I find extremely passionate and percussive. In Mahler's interpretation, the music is grave, serious, and militaristic at the beginning, but also remarkably mercurial and varied as the movement develops:

Here's a clip to the 1905 Welte-Mignon piano roll--recorded in Leipzig, Germany on Thursday 09-11-1905--presumably after the 2nd revised edition of the 5th had come out:






& here's a second, slightly different sounding version of the piano roll, given in its entirety (the "Trauermarsch" begins at 14:14):






Apparently, Mahler had become dissatisfied with his 5th after his first 1904 edition, and revised the work for a second 1905 edition, yet continued to work on the orchestration until about 1909, when he produced the 3rd and final version (which wasn't performed until 1964). Shortly before his death, Mahler explained to Georg Goehler that he "had to reorchestrate [the 5th] completely" as the music demanded that he find "a wholly new technique", apart from the one that he had used in his first four symphonies. This five-year period of revising, which came after the 1905 piano roll recording and 2nd edition, may have been partly the result of Alma's criticism to Mahler that he had written a "symphony for percussion".**

Nevertheless, Mahler's piano roll gives listeners a clear idea about how Mahler heard the opening movement of his 5th, and how he viewed and approached his music in general. To my ears, his approach is full of character and expression, but not overly indulgent or exaggerated or overdone. The music follows a clear logic and reveals a strong interest in counterpoint, yet it isn't too tightly knit either. For me, these examples become a way to better understand Mahler's 5th, and at times, certain passages can serve as a measuring stick to gauge how successful modern recordings are--while of course keeping an open mind to new interpretations.

For example, Robert Hecht writes of the 1st movement that "Mahler was fascinated by marches, particularly funeral marches, so it is no surprise that he turned one into a symphonic movement. The opening fanfare, inspired by bugle calls the composer heard in his youth from a nearby military base, is followed by two march episodes, two "trios," and a coda." When I listen to Walter's recording of the 5th, yes, the opening fanfare does sound like a military bugle call. Apparently, Walter knew what had inspired Mahler here. (By the way, the 5th isn't the only Mahler symphony where we hear bugle calls). Yet, surprisingly, some modern conductors don't get this military call. In comparison to Walter, they can sound bit clueless about what a distant bugle call sounds like in a military baracks.

Walter's 5th:





Boulez (for the sake of comparison):





Nevertheless, among modern recordings of Mahler 5th--from the analogue and digital eras, here's a list of the best I've heard (& in no particular order):

1. Sir John Barbirolli, New Philharmonia (a fine reading, however, Barbirolli's Trauermarsch seems more laid back and smoother, and less percussive and militaristic than Mahler's own piano roll, which is more dynamic):





2. Gunther Herbig, Berlin Symphony Orchestra (now here's a modern conductor that sounds like he's listened carefully to Mahler's piano roll, and like Walter understands that the opening is a military bugle call):






















3. Riccardo Chailly was given the opportunity to closely study Mengleberg's conducting scores in preparation for his Decca Mahler cycle in Amsterdam. Therefore, presumably Chailly came in contact with many notes and markings written into Mengleberg's scores by Mahler himself--as on the score of the 4th, or at least written by Mengleberg according to Mahler's instructions, or from observing Mahler conduct these works. Since the 5th was one of the symphonies that Mahler conducted in Amsterdam (in 1906, as mentioned), Chailly's 5th is worth hearing:






4. Bernard Haitink also presumably gained access to Mengleberg's conducting scores, during his long tenure as the principal conductor of the Concertgebouw (as did likely Mariss Jansons). Hence, if anyone's collecting Mahler 5ths, I'd urge you to listen to Haitink's live 5th recorded from one of the Mahler "Christmas concerts" at the Concertgebouw in the 1980s, as Haitink is often a more exciting conductor in concert than in the studio (which is the case here). If you've previously had the impression that Haitink is a boring conductor, just have a listen to this performance, as it's a riveting Mahler 5th, in my view:






5 & 6. At the other end of the spectrum are the conductors that bring out the emotions in this symphony with greater intensity--perhaps in a more exaggerated manner, in places--such as Klaus Tennstedt's live 1988 performance with the London Philharmonic, and Jascha Horenstein's Berlin Philharmonic account at the 1961 Edinburgh Festival in Scotland (Horenstein also understands the opening bugle calls exceptionally well, in my view):










7. I should also mention Leif Segerstam's more individualistic account of the 5th on Chandos. While Segerstam draws out the Adagio considerably, and at times his Mahler is quite introverted, nevertheless, Segerstam is unusually attentive to the full score, and has a wonderful ear for Mahler's counterpoint and full orchestration. As a result, he subtly alters many juxtapositions and brings out details within the score in a fresh way, which I find fascinating--especially if you're looking for an alternative account of the 5th:


















8. Finally, Rafael Kubelik was another very fine Mahler conductor, but his 5th with the Bavarian Radio S.O. needs be newly remastered, IMO (unless you own it on LP--see link below). There's also a live Kubelik recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra that is worth hearing too (but again, it doesn't have the best sound):










(For audiophile enthusiasts, there have been a number of 5ths recorded in a hybrid SACD format, which may be of interest:

Harmut Haenchen, Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra:





Zdenek Macal, Czech Philharmonic--on the Japanese Exton label, which offers phenomenal sound quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Zdene...p3-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=macal+mahler+5
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...qid=1529096703&sr=1-4&keywords=macal+mahler+5

Manfred Honeck & the Pittsburgh S.O. on the same label, which I've not heard myself:
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-...id=1529096661&sr=1-1&keywords=honeck+mahler+5

Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic on a DG hybrid SACD:
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...29173429&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+5+abbado+sacd

I'd hesitate to call any of the above recordings great Mahler 5ths, though admittedly I've not heard Honeck's.)

In summary, to better understand this symphony, I'd recommend listening to the 5ths of Walter, Mengelberg's Adagio, Scherchen, Barbirolli, Herbig, Kubelik DG (preferably on LP), Haitink's X-mas concert, Segerstam, and perhaps Chailly; along with the accounts by Horenstein, Tennstedt, & Boulez--over time.

*Wikipedia page on Mahler.
**My points are drawn from Robert Hecht's excellent program notes for the 5th:

http://www.mercuryorchestra.org/notes_mahler.html

P.S. As a bonus, here's a wonderful clip of Bruno Walter talking about Mahler, the man and composer that he knew:


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## Mecc (Jul 2, 2018)

Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate your time to help me. Have a nice day and once again thanks for all the wonderful comments, guidance and information.


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## Mecc (Jul 2, 2018)

I looked this up just for curiosity and yes, he was right. Mahler 1. Here is the wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)


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## Mecc (Jul 2, 2018)

@GeorgeMcW. Don't worry, everything helps.


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## GeorgeMcW (Jun 4, 2018)

Happy Birthday, Gussie

Which Mahler symphony shall I listen to today?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Manxfeeder said:


> Here's an interesting YouTube video tracing the Star Trek opening to Mahler's 1st, which was taken from Brahms's 2nd, which was influenced by Beethoven's 4th.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never seen that video before but have always heard the connection between all those pieces. There's another piece I tie in with these but off the top of my head I can't remember what it is.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

All of them! That was a tradition of mine for many years starting around 1975. Haven't done that in a while. So now I pull out four of them and wallow in Mahler for the better part of a day. This year's playlist will be M2, M4, M7, M9 and hopefully get DLVDE in, too. This year will be the Bertini EMI recordings. Have a nice bottle of Harvey's sitting nearby, take the phone off the hook, crank up the volume and enjoy the day.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Although I find some of this work challenging, the slow movement is so sublime.


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