# A Reason for Debate



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Here we go, we've had like 10 different (and well, not so different) threads come up here recently, and I was just struck by how much this place has changed since I came here 2 years ago (I came April 2010).

So tell me all! Explain yourselves! What is this love of discord/fighting/arguing/bickering/whatever else it's called? This thread is dedicated *alone *to the topic of why we debate so much here. Debate about debating if you like! That might be amusing. And quite satirical. :tiphat:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Debating is fun. We all want to convince everyone else that we are right and they're wrong. We can express our knowledge and learn from others too. Debating is a very good thing, keep it up.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Arguing is to see who is right. Discussion is to see what is right.

Actually all the threads on which is best bore me already and I am a newbie.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

What else is there to do? I wouldn't come on a forum if all I was going to do is nod my head and agree with everyone!


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Polednice said:


> What else is there to do? I wouldn't come on a forum if all I was going to do is nod my head and agree with everyone!


In the olden days, when I was young and beautiful, and a newbie to the net, we had 'newsgroups'. Those had some pretty good discussion on them which didn't always relate to which of two different composers was best.

I was hoping to find some of those posters here.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Moira said:


> In the olden days, when I was young and beautiful, and a newbie to the net, we had 'newsgroups'. Those had some pretty good discussion on them which didn't always relate to which of two different composers was best.
> 
> I was hoping to find some of those posters here.


Be one yourself. I think the admittedly ****** X or Y threads are started because people have nothing else to talk about. If you're sitting on an interesting question or idea, post about it!


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Polednice said:


> Be one yourself. I think the admittedly ****** X or Y threads are started because people have nothing else to talk about. If you're sitting on an interesting question or idea, post about it!


Oh, I will do so if I ever get an interesting question or idea (and lots of others as well). But as a newbie here I should not have posted anything until I had lurked for a long time.  I always ignore that 'rule' (guideline). Actually I reckoned I'm not too objectionable most of the time, so it could get away with breaking that guideline most of the time. I also seldom asked questions at the beginning, so people didn't have to explain the same thing to me that they explained thousands of times to other newbies. That helped too.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Moira said:


> Arguing is to see who is right. Discussion is to see what is right.
> 
> Actually all the threads on which is best bore me already and I am a newbie.


I think polls or threads about rankings can be fun and are interesting as information. I LOVE data. I do vastly prefer discussions to _understand_ issues. Unfortunately, psychologists have learned that people often (usually?) make up their minds about issues without resorting to factual information and then later select particular data to support their positions. It's difficult to have discussions when people are more interested in defending their views than in understanding an issue.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> I think polls or threads about rankings can be fun and are interesting as information. I LOVE data. I do vastly prefer discussions to _understand_ issues. Unfortunately, psychologists have learned that people often (usually?) make up their minds about issues without resorting to factual information and then later select particular data to support their positions. It's difficult to have discussions when people are more interested in defending their views than in understanding an issue.


Ah, but _mmsbls_, (and _Moira_) there are data and information to be, ah, harvested from those positions. They are not created via (a secular form of) immaculate conception. A 'best' opinion can be defended; the success of the defense is much less important than its contents. If we go gently in repudiation of points in dispute, we can even avoid _discipline from above_.

Now that I think about it, gentle disputation may be a skill that separates geezers from whippersnappers - well, it would in an ideal world.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ah, but _mmsbls_, (and _Moira_) there are data and information to be, ah, harvested from those positions. They are not created via (a secular form of) immaculate conception. A 'best' opinion can be defended; the success of the defense is much less important than its contents. If we go gently in repudiation of points in dispute, we can even avoid _discipline from above_.


I agree that arguments do involve information, and often that information can be enormously useful. I just prefer people to seek out such information (in addition to what they think they know) rather than always be in attack mode.


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## TheBamf (Apr 21, 2012)

Discussion/debate is at the core of this forums purpose, is it not?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> I agree that arguments do involve information, and often that information can be enormously useful. I just prefer people to seek out such information (in addition to what they think they know) rather than always be in attack mode.


Understood. There is a battering-the-ramparts aspect to the 'attack mode', especially in in-the-flesh debates. I like to take notes during those episodes, physically on a notepad if possible. Look up occasionally, nod, back to the notepad. If it isn't a debate-with-notepads, throw a little smile out there once in awhile, preferably at hearing something you aren't interested in contradicting.

In TC style debates, we must adapt to the medium. I am not revealing my tactics in that situation.





:angel:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Here we go, we've had like 10 different (and well, not so different) threads come up here recently, and I was just struck by how much this place has changed since I came here 2 years ago (I came April 2010).
> 
> So tell me all! Explain yourselves! What is this love of discord/fighting/arguing/bickering/whatever else it's called? This thread is dedicated *alone *to the topic of why we debate so much here. Debate about debating if you like! That might be amusing. And quite satirical. :tiphat:


There is nothing wrong with heated debate when you have a subject that you are fanatical about. But it should not get insulting or too personal because this will not win the day. It will also loose the offender respect in the eyes of other members. You have to prove your point and not bully your way to the front.
Having said that I do seriously believe that the administration are sometimes too hard on people they consider offenders.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

moody said:


> There is nothing wrong with heated debate when you have a subject that you are fanatical about. But it should not get insulting or too personal because this will not win the day. It will also loose the offender respect in the eyes of other members. You have to prove your point and not bully your way to the front.
> Having said that I do seriously believe that the administration are sometimes too hard on people they consider offenders.


But even the things I'm so fanatical about, I'm not going to get angry because someone doesn't support me. I don't beat dead horses, and I think everyone here on this forum is a dead horse for one thing or another.

I prefer discussion where someone contributes an insight about life/music/etc. that they have discovered, and ask people what they think about it. That's different from posting up an opinion and saying "This is why you _ought _to believe like I do." Words like "ought" and "should" put unnecessary shame on people.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> But even the things I'm so fanatical about, I'm not going to get angry because someone doesn't support me. I don't beat dead horses, and I think everyone here on this forum is a dead horse for one thing or another.
> 
> I prefer discussion where someone contributes an insight about life/music/etc. that they have discovered, and ask people what they think about it. That's different from posting up an opinion and saying "This is why you _ought _to believe like I do." Words like "ought" and "should" put unnecessary shame on people.


All we have to do is remove the 'un' from your' necessary' and change 'shame' to 'pressure', and I am in agreement with you, _huilun_. Neat, eh?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> All we have to do is remove the 'un' from your' necessary' and change 'shame' to 'pressure', and I am in agreement with you, _huilun_. Neat, eh?


O well, I tried.

:tiphat:

I was actually quoting something from my college stress management class.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> O well, I tried.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> I was actually quoting something from my college stress management class.


Oh - college. Sorry ma'am, my disagreement doesn't matter a whit then.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Oh - college. Sorry ma'am, my disagreement doesn't matter a whit then.


And then you think I was emphasizing the word college? Twisted perceptionss everywhere like snakesss. I was just saying college because it happened to be in college. That lesson could be taught in elementary school too.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> And then you think I was emphasizing the word college? Twisted perceptionss everywhere like snakesss. I was just saying college because it happened to be in college. That lesson could be taught in elementary school too.


Stress Management may not show up in elementary school curriculums. Ssss. Given that all snakes are carnivorous, garter snakes are kinda neat.

Do you best to ignore me,_ Huilun_, I feel like I am a mullet, flopping on the sand. You and your friends are are somehow an alien species, your values and aspirations making only quasi-sense to me. The certainty of every generation that the geezers will - sooner than later - be gone, is what keeps the species going. Eh?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Here we go, we've had like 10 different (and well, not so different) threads come up here recently, and I was just struck by how much this place has changed since I came here 2 years ago (I came April 2010).


Well you came here at a time when things were good, they were settling down compared to before. I became a member here early 2009. Heaps of fights then. Various "colourful characters." Many of them I think where music students at uni, very ideological, but not making sense. No offence to you, I see you as more sensible than them. But they had various positions that were clearly contradictory (& I don't need a music degree to know that). Eg. this guy, his username was Bach, and yet he said Stravinsky's neo-classical period was rubbish, basically. Funny that, a lot of his music of that period was influenced by...no prizes for guessing!

Anyway, now the forum seems to be drifting towards ideology and dogma a bit. But I think it's still an okay place on the whole. I am just put off by people not applying basic critical thinking skills and the usual thing is they give me a false dichotomy (or two, or three, or four, or even more!). Or put words into my mouth. Or ask me a question they already know an answer to, they infer my position on based on what I've said, to score a cheap point.

Don't work with me fellas, I can think. But main thing is for me not to become too emotional and kind of go on a rant. Doesn't reflect well on me at all.



> ...So tell me all! Explain yourselves! What is this love of discord/fighting/arguing/bickering/whatever else it's called? This thread is dedicated *alone *to the topic of why we debate so much here. Debate about debating if you like! That might be amusing. And quite satirical. :tiphat:


It's good to do a healthy exchange of ideas. However one member in particular is intent on censoring what people say, while claiming the high ground with this person claiming to be very open minded.

Now that's what peeves me off,_ I can say what I want but you can't_, that kind of double standard attitude.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Forget debating* other people, *why do people debate with themselves so often? E.g.

I. at the same time and 
II. past selves vs. present selves.

And if you come up with an answer to this then the reason why people disagree with other people become transparent.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Forget debating* other people, *why do people debate with themselves so often? E.g.
> 
> I. at the same time and
> II. past selves vs. present selves.
> ...


Would you care to translate this, I'm a bit slow you know.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Any forum/group is going to have some annoying dynamics and trends at any given time. The trick is, when they rock right, you rock left (or vice versa).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> O well, I tried.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> I was actually quoting something from my college stress management class.


Stress management class? I wish that such things had been available in my day--I am sure I would be a more complete and rounded individual. Not to mention at peace with the world.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I want to know people's opinions on topics. It helps one better understand how people think and why they think that way. This is important to psychology.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Plus I'm just generally curious to what people believe/think about various topics.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, that's better. And on same topic, same here! I ask people stuff like that because I like to know what makes people tick.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I think we'll get along just fine ^__^ Sorry if I came off "dickish" in the other thread. I'm not a confrontational person whatsoever.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I can only think the number of debate threads on non-musical subjects, especially controversial subjects, is a net detriment to this forum. It is of course rather impossible to measure, but I wonder how many new people are put off from posting about Mozart because of intemperate debates about 20thC politics etc. Perhaps the liveliness of the forum does encourage classical music informed people posting, but I personally doubt it. At the moment I think talk might be driving out classical.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

quack said:


> I can only think the number of debate threads on non-musical subjects, especially controversial subjects, is a net detriment to this forum. It is of course rather impossible to measure, but I wonder how many new people are put off from posting about Mozart because of intemperate debates about 20thC politics etc. Perhaps the liveliness of the forum does encourage classical music informed people posting, but I personally doubt it. At the moment I think talk might be driving out classical.


Debates that they are forced at gun-point to read?


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Debates that they are forced at gun-point to read?


Well yes that would be especially antagonistic but I have never heard of anyone being forced to visit an internet forum at gunpoint.

If your classical music magazine has more celebrity gossip than music you might well unsubscribe.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Here we go, we've had like 10 different (and well, not so different) threads come up here recently, and I was just struck by how much this place has changed since I came here 2 years ago (I came April 2010).
> 
> So tell me all! Explain yourselves! What is this love of discord/fighting/arguing/bickering/whatever else it's called? This thread is dedicated *alone *to the topic of why we debate so much here. Debate about debating if you like! That might be amusing. And quite satirical. :tiphat:


It seems we discuss on here mostly taboo topics that are not to be discussed in polite society (ie. "real" life). So we're probably filling a void as the vast majority of real-life conversation is quite dull and revolves around what you did on the weekend.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> It seems we discuss on here mostly taboo topics that are not to be discussed in polite society (ie. "real" life). So we're probably filling a void as the vast majority of real-life conversation is quite dull and revolves around what you did on the weekend.


If what you did on the weekend is acceptable to talk about in public.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> If what you did on the weekend is acceptable to talk about in public...


Then PM science because he wants to get in on a bit of that action and has some money to pay for it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

quack said:


> I can only think the number of debate threads on non-musical subjects, especially controversial subjects, is a net detriment to this forum. It is of course rather impossible to measure, but I wonder how many new people are put off from posting about Mozart because of intemperate debates about 20thC politics etc. Perhaps the liveliness of the forum does encourage classical music informed people posting, but I personally doubt it. At the moment I think talk might be driving out classical.


You are quite right, the community forum is supposed to be for "lighter" subjects? What a joke all I see are the most controversial subjects ranging across abortion, homosexuality. Iran , fetishes, religion, usw. Half of them end in confusion and I know that people are dismayed by it all.


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## drwatson (May 15, 2012)

I seem to have arrived at an awkward time with some quite contentious threads. I can understand the dismay about the proportion of music and "impolite" threads, especially if it is off-putting to potential newcomers. I can also understand, however, that the strength of a forum is that it feels like a community, and once you build friendships with people through a shared taste in music, you are inclined to ask their opinion about all kinds of things. The "simple" solution of going to a politics forum is unattractive, as they are not populated by friendly faces.

I've seen references to "groups" here and there - I don't know if they help, but - in an impossibly ideal world - we should be able to talk to each other about anything without resorting to insults (and I've seen a fair few already!), so it would be a shame if this results in censorship.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

drwatson said:


> I seem to have arrived at an awkward time with some quite contentious threads. I can understand the dismay about the proportion of music and "impolite" threads, especially if it is off-putting to potential newcomers. I can also understand, however, that the strength of a forum is that it feels like a community, and once you build friendships with people through a shared taste in music, you are inclined to ask their opinion about all kinds of things. The "simple" solution of going to a politics forum is unattractive, as they are not populated by friendly faces.
> 
> I've seen references to "groups" here and there - I don't know if they help, but - in an impossibly ideal world - we should be able to talk to each other about anything without resorting to insults (and I've seen a fair few already!), so it would be a shame if this results in censorship.


I can only repeat what I said above, I don't want to talk about these subjects on a Classical Music forum. Don't you think tha tmost people talk to their community of friends and family at home-----or is the problem that they don't have anybody?? Before anybody says that i have taken part I agree that I have and got pretty damned upset in regard of the anti-military sentiments. This when some of us saw our friends die protecting such people, these threads I think you will find cause more bans and warnings than any others.


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## drwatson (May 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I can only repeat what I said above, I don't want to talk about these subjects on a Classical Music forum. Don't you think tha tmost people talk to their community of friends and family at home-----or is the problem that they don't have anybody?? Before anybody says that i have taken part I agree that I have and got pretty damned upset in regard of the anti-military sentiments. This when some of us saw our friends die protecting such people, these threads I think you will find cause more bans and warnings than any others.


I think I can only repeat myself, too, "moody".  I shan't pretend to know why some people would like to discuss these particular things on this community forum - maybe they have no one else to talk to, maybe they particularly respect the opinions of the people here, maybe they're just so used to posting their random thoughts on Talk Classical. Is the alternative suggestion that people do it with malicious intent? I won't make any assumptions as I'm still sizing you all up!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

drwatson said:


> I think I can only repeat myself, too, "moody".  I shan't pretend to know why some people would like to discuss these particular things on this community forum - maybe they have no one else to talk to, maybe they particularly respect the opinions of the people here, maybe they're just so used to posting their random thoughts on Talk Classical. Is the alternative suggestion that people do it with malicious intent? I won't make any assumptions as I'm still sizing you all up!


Oh, _moody_ and I both suspect the whippersnappers of malicious intent. They are trying to get us to reveal the Answers without their having to find the Questions.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I do talk to people about issues of the day. I think we all do. Eg. what's in the news, which I often relate to the big picture. But it's different on forums as people get too emotional then are prone to doing all sorts of things that most people wouldn't do in real life conversations. I sometimes think that manners have gone down the s-bend on the internet. Maybe we should not call it _social _media but _un-social_, or even _anti-social_, media. I think it's easy to loose your cool and then basically **** hits the fan.


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