# Amplified Instruments?



## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Hello music lovers,
and apologies in advance in case this topic is still a bit taboo in classical music...

Symphonic orchestras play in huge theatres (or even in open air, not my question here). While I trust a saxophone to fill this volume with sound, I don't believe a second that a célesta or a marimba get heard naturally from the last seats.

So, *what instruments get amplified?* None? All at once? Only the célesta, the flutes and the solo violin?

Is it realistic to write a marimba solo after the brass and before the woodwind, and expect amplification to let the marimba be heard?

Thank you!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

In a good hall, with a full professional orchestra, it had better be none! If the composer knows how to score, the conductor has ears, and the players are sensitive to what's going on nothing should be buried any more than intended. In all my years of playing concerts I have never witnessed any amplification in a concert of serious music. Now, outdoors is of course another matter where mostly everyone gets amped to some degree.

I played contrabassoon in a symphony by a deservedly forgotten composer several years ago. In the scherzo he had written a contra solo marked if fff. But I was up against the full brass and percussion sections, also marked fff. The composer was conducting and got quite angry that I couldn't play the beast loud enough to cut through the racket. It sounded so good on Finale, he said - I need to blow more air. Well, a beginning orchestration student would have known the error he made. Then he decided to put a microphone on the contra, but turning the volume up on it with the brass behind me resulted in horrible squeal and feedback issues. He had gotten too comfortable with electronic fake balances on the computer and had no real-world experience. The concertmaster politely suggested having the brass play pp and have the contra doubled with the other bassoons - that worked.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Enthalpy said:


> Hello music lovers,
> and apologies in advance in case this topic is still a bit taboo in classical music...


Taboo? The topic doesn't exist. Why not go to a concert and find out?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Electric instruments of the kind more commonly used in jazz and rock have very different sounds and possibilities compared to acoustic instruments and some classical composers have made use of these possibilities. Some modern composers have also asked for normal acoustic sounds to be amplified (Schnittke's Cello Concerto is one example). The amplification of instruments in music that was written before amplification was possible should not be needed.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

All I can think of is a guitar sound amplification often used in compositions for guitar and orchestra. But that's probably not exactly what you asked. I might add that harps often have a problem with the volume, and when they are prescribed to play _pp_, they translate it "press powerfully"...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

George Crumb used amplified pianos to great effect.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

A contrabassoon can at least be heard, so reducing the brass and helping with bassoons was a solution. But what about a marimba, especially at the low notes? Or worse, a célesta? Sure, a good orchestra can play softer than the soloist, but at some point the public doesn't hear anything more. Whatever the composition year is, the choice is between amplify or don't hear it.

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Can I take away that

A symphonic orchestra normally amplifies no instrument within its concert hall
But is ready to amplify if the composer tells it?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Enthalpy said:


> A contrabassoon can at least be heard, so reducing the brass and helping with bassoons was a solution. But what about a marimba, especially at the low notes? Or worse, a célesta? Sure, a good orchestra can play softer than the soloist, but at some point the public doesn't hear anything more. Whatever the composition year is, the choice is between amplify or don't hear it.
> 
> ----------
> 
> ...


Yes, and yes. Most ensembles at least try to do what the composer asks. As for the marimba or the celesta, the delicacy of the sound is part of the effect the composer wants and if he is any good, he scores around it. The only people who have difficulty with it are those who have been to too many pop concerts and can't hear anything that isn't amplified so much you can't hear it anyway. 

(When Beethoven realized he couldn't hear the distant piping of a shepherd first pointed out by a friend, he knew he was going deaf.)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthalpy said:


> Can I take away that
> 
> A symphonic orchestra normally amplifies no instrument within its concert hall
> But is ready to amplify if the composer tells it?


Yes, and yes....as a rule, standard orchestra instruments are not amplified...

A funny story related to the subject - 
years ago, I was playing in the pit band for "Jesus Christ Superstar"....the traveling group brought their own rock group, and their own lead trumpeter [a 250lb gorilla who never played less than triple fortissimo :lol:]....local union musicians [incl myself] filled out the roster....the contractor had hired a fine group - all symphony players, RochesterPO, various orchestras - these people could all play - big sounds, fill the hall, etc, etc...
anyway - everyone was to be "miked" for the show....of course, the rock band was, but they decided to amplify the pit band as well....gawd, was it loud!! unbelievably so. Probably the loudest production in which I've ever participated....fortunately, I was seated at the back of the pit, below, and behind the big theater speakers, which were right over us...the people at the front of the pit, nearest the audience, were getting hit full blast...
My friends were all asking about the show, was it good?? should they come, etc....I said yes, great show, but don't get tickets within the first 20 rows or so!! you'll be deaf by intermission!! LOL!!
the point is - for professional level symphony musicians, they don't need to be amplified - they are trained to play with a big sound that projects throughout the hall. The sound guys want to control everything, and it probably made sense to balance with the rock band, but still - it was a bit much!!


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Adams wrote a concerto for electric violin and orchestra. I believe there are less famous electric violin concertos. I think I recall an amplified guitar concerto played in Albany 10 years ago. It's hard to hear a guitar over even a small orchestra.


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## Oscar South (Aug 6, 2020)

Topic that I'm conceptually interested in. I can't speak much about standard orchestral practices as I've not been fortune enough to collaborate with a full orchestra (yet), but I've played with many ensembles of many types. I've found personally in terms of artistic approach and conceptualisation that there's a lot to be gained by treating anything that comes from a loudspeaker AS literally that -- music accompanied by or to accompany a loudspeaker.

Once you introduce one amplified instrument to a performance then the metaphorical 'physics' of the music is transformed into something very different to a purely acoustic environment. Considering the actual sound production method (the speaker) to be the instrument itself (abstractly of what comes before it in the signal path) allows for practical decisions (positioning, normalisation with regard to dynamic, number of sound sources etc.) to be made with a much simpler cognitive model. After all, a speaker IS in fact an acoustic instrument, regardless of whether it's powered by electricity or not!

I've done a lot of work as a session bassist, playing both upright and electric. The more I've explored this profession as a player, the more profoundly I see myself as a player of 'amplified bass frequency' -- the actual origin source of the frequency is of less concern to me than the physical producer of the sound, and a variety of sources can be used in amalgam (limited by ability to perform them!) to sculpt and achieve the desired sounds at the height of the potential of the sound production mechanism. The only real additional consideration is 'normalisation' of the speaker dynamic range to suit the acoustic environment.

I think that there have been some notable electronic music pioneers who have explored this line of thinking more thoroughly, though I don't have a personal insight into their insights at this time.


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## maladie (Oct 14, 2015)

I worked at a concert all with an orchestra for a few years as a student. In general nothing is amplified unless it's specifically asked for in the score in contemporary music. That said, it's not THAT abnormal to slightly amplify a soloist and many specifically ask for it depending on the hall. That said, the amplification is normally so low that most people will not realize it's even on. It's mostly to add a bit of air and it's important that there is a proper delay in the system so that the amplified sound and acoustic sound is in phase. 

A lot of purists don't want to hear this but it's true. I had a huge argument with one of my professors about it once. He then used the local concert that week as an example, without knowing I was working at the hall. I could confirm which Schoeps microphone was on the soloist and specifically where.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

I can hear harpsichord on the recording, but it's way louder than in concerts. It's hard to follow the instrument when the strings play.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

A harmonica soloist with orchestra is always amplified. Guitar I have seen too. Not sure about the accordion. With more non-standard instruments being used, I'm sure amplification is more and more part of the scene. To me it depends on the hall, and is not a big deal if done tastefully. But for some classical purists I guess it would lean too far in the direction of jazz or musical theatre or pop practices.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

I imagine when composers call for electric guitar and/or bass guitar (eg. Bernstein's Mass or any number of Schnittke's works), they're amplified.


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