# SS 06.02.16 - Bruckner #3



## realdealblues

A continuation of the Saturday Symphonies Tradition:

Welcome to another weekend of symphonic listening! 
_*
*_For your listening pleasure this weekend:*

Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)*

Symphony No. 3 in D minor, WAB 103 

1. Gemäßigt, mehr bewegt, misterioso
2. Adagio. Bewegt, quasi Andante
3. Scherzo. Ziemlich schnell
4. Finale. Allegro

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Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


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## realdealblues

Another Saturday Symphony and another from Anton Bruckner 

I always look forward to time with Anton, I'll be listening to:

View attachment 81067


Eugen Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden


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## Pugg

From this box, outstanding:tiphat:


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## Vaneyes

*Bruckner*: Symphony 3 (1877 version), w. BPO/Barenboim. Recorded December 1995 (live) at Philharmonie, Berlin. Recording Engineer: Tobias Lehmann.


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## D Smith

I'll enjoy a chance to revisit this symphony again. I'll be listening to Wand.


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## Kivimees

Same as D Smith for me.


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## Manxfeeder

I'll try out Inbal. His recording of the 7th brings out tonal colors which I hadn't noticed before. I'm curious about his take on this one.

My library connection is slow, so I can't get a picture up.


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## Mahlerian

With the exception of Manxfeeder, all of you are listening to the wrong version of this work.

This is the Bruckner symphony where the version distinctions are also differences in quality, and the "progressive mutilations" of the work did much to destroy the logic and beauty of the original.

I'll be listening to Tintner/RSNO.


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## Haydn man

Mahlerian said:


> With the exception of Manxfeeder, all of you are listening to the wrong version of this work.
> 
> This is the Bruckner symphony where the version distinctions are also differences in quality, and the "progressive mutilations" of the work did much to destroy the logic and beauty of the original.
> 
> I'll be listening to Tintner/RSNO.


I was going to listen to Wand but given this information I shall follow your lead, so Tintner it is


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## Jeff W

Mahlerian said:


> With the exception of Manxfeeder, all of you are listening to the wrong version of this work.
> 
> This is the Bruckner symphony where the version distinctions are also differences in quality, and the "progressive mutilations" of the work did much to destroy the logic and beauty of the original.
> 
> I'll be listening to Tintner/RSNO.


I think I will try out this recording as well


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## Jeffrey Smith

Mahlerian said:


> With the exception of Manxfeeder, all of you are listening to the wrong version of this work.
> 
> This is the Bruckner symphony where the version distinctions are also differences in quality, and the "progressive mutilations" of the work did much to destroy the logic and beauty of the original.
> 
> I'll be listening to Tintner/RSNO.


Until I found other recordings, I was convinced Bruckner was a highly overrated composer because of this recording. So either Tintner was not that great a conductor or Bruckner's revisions were for the better.

I will go with Karajan, probably. For me he does the best job with the early symphonies.


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## Mahlerian

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Until I found other recordings, I was convinced Bruckner was a highly overrated composer because of this recording. So either Tintner was not that great a conductor or Bruckner's revisions were for the better.
> 
> I will go with Karajan, probably. For me he does the best job with the early symphonies.


The revisions make the work incoherent. The original version has dramatic thrust and power that are completely lost in later versions. The finale in particular has no impact because the final climax is apropos of absolutely nothing.

I'm not nearly as picky about the recording. I'd take Young as well, and possibly even Inbal, though I've never cared much for the few of his interpretations I've heard.


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## elgar's ghost

I'll go for a recording which often goes under the radar (from the Royal Albert Hall, July 1983). If memory serves, this version is the 1877 without the scherzo coda but given the tangled history of most of Bruckner's symphonies I could be wrong.


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## KenOC

OK, Listening to the Tintner, just to be safe. Q: Did this guy ever write a _diminuendo_?


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## Triplets

D Smith said:


> I'll enjoy a chance to revisit this symphony again. I'll be listening to Wand.


This is one Bruckner Symphony that I have never been able to like. I'll try Wand as well.


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## KenOC

OK, just finished Bruckner's 3rd (Tintner). It seemed to take a very long time to get from one end to the other. I feel like I've just spent a buck's worth of time for a nickel's worth of music. Apologies in advance to you Bruckner fans!


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## Mika

Instead of Wand I'll go with Simone Young this time.


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## TxllxT

Harnoncourt in Bruckner 3: hear, hear!


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## Mika

Oh God, Anton liked brass a lot. Even in the middle of quiet moments comes this tuuuuuuut . Did he have some marching band history or why this brass hype?


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## hpowders

My favorite is the one conducted by Herbert von Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic.


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## TxllxT

Mika said:


> Oh God, Anton liked brass a lot. Even in the middle of quiet moments comes this tuuuuuuut . Did he have some marching band history or why this brass hype?


Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh: that's no brass hype, that's Wagner adoration!!!


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## Jeffrey Smith

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Until I found other recordings, I was convinced Bruckner was a highly overrated composer because of this recording. So either Tintner was not that great a conductor or Bruckner's revisions were for the better.
> 
> I will go with Karajan, probably. For me he does the best job with the early symphonies.


Update
Decided instead to do a first listen to a newly purchased cycle, and go with the Skro, so to speak









And then a double whammy: I am following that up with the Tintner recording, to see if it is as boring as I remember it to be. Possibly ten years since I last actually played it.


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## Jeffrey Smith

Update.

Skrow. takes 55 minutes for the full symphony.
Tintner takes 51 minutes for the first two movements. Overall recording is 77:32.

And Tintner is no Celibidache. No tension, no dynamic movement.

Oh, good, the scherzo is starting...but even that is dainty and a bit lethargic...

Good music to fall asleep to.

Unless there is a sudden change when the finale comes around, this puppy is a loser. But I won't sell it off or donate it to the library, because I don't want some novice listening to this and thinking this is what Bruckner is supposed to sound like.


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## Mahlerian

Yes, but the version Tintner uses is much larger (in terms of bars, it's Bruckner's longest symphony). Any recording of it will be significantly longer than a recording of the eviscerated 1889 version. Comparing timings in itself is useless.

Skrowaczewski:
1st: ~68
2nd: ~47
3rd: ~75
4th: ~60

Tintner:
1st: ~57
2nd: ~38
3rd: ~68
4th: ~58

Yes, slower, but not nearly as much as you're making it seem. It's nowhere near Celibidache slow.

For comparison, here's Celibidache:
1st: ~54
2nd: ~35
3rd: ~62
4th: ~55


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## Triplets

After listening to the Wand recording I remember why I don't like this piece. It isn't the Conductor's fault, although the hard nosed recording doesn't do him or the Orchestra any favors. I still regard this as Bruckner's worst effort, except for the 0s; I like the first two numbered Symphonies better than this, and 4-9 are his master pieces.
This work features way to much brass (he would learn later to give more themes to strings and winds) and to many obvious switches from tonic to dominant and back again instead of theme development. Bruckner learned to do the tonic-dominant thing much better in the later works but here the seams are just glaring.


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## Mahlerian

Triplets said:


> After listening to the Wand recording I remember why I don't like this piece. It isn't the Conductor's fault, although the hard nosed recording doesn't do him or the Orchestra any favors. I still regard this as Bruckner's worst effort, except for the 0s; I like the first two numbered Symphonies better than this, and 4-9 are his master pieces.
> This work features way to much brass (he would learn later to give more themes to strings and winds) and to many obvious switches from tonic to dominant and back again instead of theme development. Bruckner learned to do the tonic-dominant thing much better in the later works but here the seams are just glaring.


With reference to the revised versions, I agree with you that the Third ranks very low among Bruckner's efforts. The original is every bit the masterpiece of the later works, though, and I would easily place it above 4, 6, and 7 because of their weaker portions.


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## brotagonist

I heard this when I bought it, about a year ago. I thought it was very nice. Tonight a relisten!









Nagano/Deutsches SO

I was very careful, when I purchased, to get the original version. Does it really make that much of a difference? I might be able to compare tomorrow, after the Superbowl?


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## Classical Music Fan

I listened to this version I checked out from the library. It has Herbert Blomstedt conducting the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. 







Apparently its the 1873 version even though the case doesn't say which version is used. The tempos are also faster than the Tintner version. 
Tintner
1st-30
2nd-20
3rd-7
4th-19
Blomstedt
1st-23
2nd-17
3rd-7
4th-15


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## SiegendesLicht

Mika said:


> Oh God, Anton liked brass a lot. Even in the middle of quiet moments comes this tuuuuuuut . Did he have some marching band history or why this brass hype?


I absolutely love Anton's brass hype 

And I am listening to Karajan/Berliner Philarmoniker as well.


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## hpowders

^^^I thoroughly endorse SL's second sentence.


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## SiegendesLicht

^ Do you mean you have no love for Anton's brass? 

I am listening to one of those quiet brass moments Mika mentioned. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds magical. Like a still small voice calling you in the night. Reminds me of Tristan und Isolde for some reason.


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## Fat Bob

Well, I think I may just gorge on Bruckner 3 over this week - Karajan, Jochum (Dresden) and Tintner. There are worse ways to spend my time.


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## Muse Wanderer

I am used to listening to Jochum and Wand versions.

Last year I listened to Young's Bruckner original 3rd several times with interest and felt intrigued by the changing sound landscape. There is so much Wagnerian influence instilled in the it, no wonder he dedicated it to him.









Now, following the advice of our illustrious Mahlerian, I am listening to Tintner. Reminds me of Celibidache, taking his time but the effect is sublime especially with the intricacies of the original version being all intact.


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## TurnaboutVox

Anton Bruckner #3

It's Tintner for me too. Not a symphony I know especially well, so I went through it twice this afternoon - once casually whilst cooking, and then again paying proper attention. Well, I can see that there are mixed feelings about this fellow's work, but I remain a fan. I get Bruckner movements in a 'loop' in my mind all the time, and tongiht it's certainly the scherzo of the third.










Symphony no 3 in D minor, WAB 103
Georg Tintner, Royal Scottish National Orchestra
recorded in the Sir Henry Wood Hall, Glasgow, 1998


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## Jeffrey Smith

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, but the version Tintner uses is much larger (in terms of bars, it's Bruckner's longest symphony). Any recording of it will be significantly longer than a recording of the eviscerated 1889 version. Comparing timings in itself is useless.
> 
> Skrowaczewski:
> 1st: ~68
> 2nd: ~47
> 3rd: ~75
> 4th: ~60
> 
> Tintner:
> 1st: ~57
> 2nd: ~38
> 3rd: ~68
> 4th: ~58
> 
> Yes, slower, but not nearly as much as you're making it seem. It's nowhere near Celibidache slow.
> 
> For comparison, here's Celibidache:
> 1st: ~54
> 2nd: ~35
> 3rd: ~62
> 4th: ~55


Celibadache could bring tension and intensity is his slow pace. Tintner just brings dullness and lethargy. Just a long maunder of sound. No pulse, no sense of architecture, no real dynamic shading.

I am willing to believe this was Tintner's fault, so I just ordered Nagano's recording of the Third (and the Sixth and the Seventh--I already have his recording of the Fourth) to see what a conductor I like can do with the original.
I


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## Mahlerian

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Celibadache could bring tension and intensity is his slow pace. Tintner just brings dullness and lethargy. Just a long maunder of sound. No pulse, no sense of architecture, no real dynamic shading.


If that were the way I heard it, I would not listen to the recording. Tintner has a firm grasp of the architecture, with plenty of shading (although the harsher and quite forward sound of the brass on his recording doesn't help much).


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## Art Rock

I played my CD (Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin/Chailly on Decca, bought around 1990). However, based on this thread, the recommended Tintner version on Naxos will be up later this week.


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## helenora

3rd symphony with Jascha Horenstein. Listening now.....


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## Pugg

Quit a mixed bag of choices this time


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## MagneticGhost

Late to the party - I Listened to this in the car today. 
Always forget how much I enjoy this work. But having read this thread I'm very intrigued to hear the original version.
Sinopoli does a great job although the brass can sound a touch harsh at times.


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## Kivimees

MagneticGhost said:


> View attachment 81189
> 
> 
> Late to the party - I Listened to this in the car today.


Long drive or traffic jam? :lol:


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## MagneticGhost

Kivimees said:


> Long drive or traffic jam? :lol:


 half an hour each way. Pause in the middle to eat a hot dog - got to listen to most of the first mvt twice


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## AClockworkOrange

I can't believe I missed this Saturday Symphony.

Better late than never, I'm going to listen to Klaus Tennstedt & the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks.


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