# One hour of JS Bach



## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

OK you Bach fanatics, and I know there are many of you: your task is to put together a programme of JS Bach's works, around an hour in length (perhaps 90 minutes tops), which you feel would be most representative of his genius, and most likely to convert even the staunchest of non-believers. 

Though it may go against your beliefs, you may have to include excerpts (individual movements) rather than full works due to the programme length. Understand though that this is only intended to be a Bach primer - to get an average classical music listener hooked on JSB and want to delve deeper. 

Include specific performances of his works (conductor/ensemble/year) if they are particularly recommended.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

My programme would be something like this:

Concerto for two violins complete bwv 1043 - 15 min. approx
Keyboard concerto in F Minor bwv 1056 1st mvt - 3.30 min approx
Andante from Brandenburg concerto #2 bwv 1047 - 3:45 min approx
Concerto for violin and oboe bwv 1060 1st mvt - 5 min approx
Mass in B minor chorus Gloria in excelsis Deo bwv 232 - 7 min approx
Violin concerto in A minor bwv 1041 3rd mvt - 3.30 min approx
Adagio in C from Adagio, toccatta and fugue bwv564-4.30min approx
Concerto for 4 harpsichords after Vivaldi bwv 1065 mvt 1 - 4.30 min approx 
Brandenburg Concerto #3 mvt 2 adagio- allegro- 5 min approx
St. Matthew Passion Final Choir Chorus bwv 244 7 min. approx

Edit- I didn't notice you said we could make it up to 90 minutes, my list is around 60, so I would probably throw in some solo instrument works - pieces from the well-tempered clavier, maybe the chaconne in D minor on violin, the prelude in D on cello and maybe a piece or two from his suites for lute (G minor perhaps) performed on either lute or classical guitar.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

That's waaaay too many concertos. Bach was not Italian. 

Any way, bassClef, is this primer for yourself?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Webernite said:


> That's waaaay too many concertos. Bach was not Italian.


Yes, but they are all (except one) just short excerpts of concertos, not the whole concerto. The longer two pieces in my initial set list are from the Mass in B minor and St Matthews Passion. Also the concertos make up a large percentage of what are commonly on his 'best of' compositions, which definetely would be something to spark interest as well as show his genius in orchestration as its not like Bach wrote any symphonies! I also have solo organ, violin, cello, keyboard, and lute pieces in there...

Admittedly I am not schooled in the art of programming concerts and would have to listen to this set in real life and then undoubtedly make some adjustments etc. Which is why I wrote my programme would be 'something like this' or in other words not necessarily exact.

I'd love to see what songs from his catalogue you would choose.

Edit - I'd also like to add that I dont think it matters what nationality Bach was or the origin of the concerto, he wrote a darn good concerto. I guess I could've put in a violin sonata or something to mix it up though


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*One hour?*

Take a look to this...






Martin will be inside..Help!

Martin, desperate


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*errata*

take a look at this....

Martin...desperate the same


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Webernite said:


> That's waaaay too many concertos. Bach was not Italian.
> 
> Any way, bassClef, is this primer for yourself?


Possibly. I know some Bach, the unaccompanied cello suites, brandenburg concertos, orchestral suites etc, but I probably haven't delved as deeply as his status deserves. I feel there must be more to hear, but the size of his full repertoire is a bit daunting.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

tdc said:


> Yes, but they are all (except one) just short excerpts of concertos, not the whole concerto. The longer two pieces in my initial set list are from the Mass in B minor and St Matthews Passion. Also the concertos make up a large percentage of what are commonly on his 'best of' compositions, which definetely would be something to spark interest as well as show his genius in orchestration as its not like Bach wrote any symphonies! I also have solo organ, violin, cello, keyboard, and lute pieces in there...
> 
> Admittedly I am not schooled in the art of programming concerts and would have to listen to this set in real life and then undoubtedly make some adjustments etc. Which is why I wrote my programme would be 'something like this' or in other words not necessarily exact.
> 
> I'd love to see what songs from his catalogue you would choose.


Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. But the inclusion of the Vivaldi transcription really seemed to be overdoing it!

My list would be something like:

1. St Matthew Passion, BWV 244: _Kommt, ihr Töchter, helft mir klagen_ (opening chorus; Richter, Koopman)
2. Partita No. 2 in D minor, BWV 1004: Sarabande (violin: Hahn, Perlman, Faust) 
3. Partita No. 6 in E minor, BWV 830 (piano: Perahia, Schiff)
4. Harpsichord Concerto No. 4 in A Major, BWV 1055 (harpsichord: Pinnock)
5. The Art of Fugue: Contrapunctus XI (piano: Kocsis, Rosen)
6. Mass in B Minor: _Dona nobis pacem_ (last movement; Richter, Karajan, Herreweghe)

All very kitsch, I know (Karajan's Bach!!). But I've chosen these works and these performances basically because they will make an impression, which I take it is what you want.

Edit: Oh, and when I haven't specified a movement, I mean you should listen to the whole thing. The Youtube videos are just samples: you should get CDs.

:tiphat:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

OK... off of the top of my head mine might look something like this:


























continued...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

continued...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

This is slightly over an hour... but then again reducing the vast oeuvre of Bach to an hour of highlights is an absolute impossibility, isn't it? His music is laden with so many gems in so many different genre. Hell, nearly every last one of the some 200+ cantatas has at least one or two memorable movements... and a good many have much more.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Take a look to this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad to see you finally coming around, Martin, and recognizing that yes, indeed... reducing J.S. Bach to but an hour or 90 minutes of highlights is sheer madness... an absolute act of insanity... something impossible to achieve...

Now if we were talking of the music of one of those second-rate Russian composers... well that would be another situation altogether. Almost all of them could be reduced to a 1-volume "greatest hits".


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Webernite said:


> But the inclusion of the Vivaldi transcription really seemed to be overdoing it!


Ha! I can see your point on that one I suppose. My logic was I love the arrangement, and the piece of music, so it shows Bach's skills as an arranger, as well as showing the fact he honored and respected tradition and older composers. I think J.S. Bach was incredibly influenced by Vivaldi. But I do see your point. It is almost note for note a Vivaldi piece. I heard the Bach version first that is probably another reason I associate it with him...

Anyway, nice lists webernite and StlukesguildOhio.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't have time to come up with an even hour's worth. Some of those already mentioned above would be on my list, but here's three pieces I enjoy the most, essential to my collection:
*
Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, Cantata BWV 80 (excerpt).* This cantata had timpani and brass added by his son W. F. later on, but I do like that stunning version. I'm thinking of just the first movement here in the video, which is not the first movement of the piece, but you get the idea. (It's all very confusing.) I love the trumpet trills on unusual almost dissonant notes and the very different melodic textures going on simultaneously. Very striking.





The *Prelude and Fugue No.7 E flat major BWV 852* is perhaps my favorite prelude (though not my favorite fugue) from the Well Tempered Clavier. The prominent two-note motif or gesture that appears throughout never fails to move me, no matter how many times I hear it.





The *Trio Sonata for organ in E flat Major BWV 525, movement 3*. Try to find this arranged for harpsichord and guitar by Julian Bream, a lively upbeat piece indeed.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I find those vocal works of Bach a bit boring. I think Bach's musical accompaniment is not more than mere accompaniment, whereas guys like Handel or Vivaldi made the accompaniment a "voice" in it's own right. In them, the accompanists were not merely "shadowing" the voice but they were more of an independent active protagonist in themselves. I'm not a Bach expert, but that's what I tend to hear, and it puts me off a bit, not matter how polished, refined, rarified the atmosphere...


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Andre said:


> I find those vocal works of Bach a bit boring. I think Bach's musical accompaniment is not more than mere accompaniment, whereas guys like Handel or Vivaldi made the accompaniment a "voice" in it's own right. In them, the accompanists were not merely "shadowing" the voice but they were more of an independent active protagonist in themselves. I'm not a Bach expert, but that's what I tend to hear, and it puts me off a bit, not matter how polished, refined, rarified the atmosphere...


I haven't found that at all myself. I find Bach's accompaniment incredibly tasteful, and mathematically precise. Always an eye opening, mind expanding note thrown in at the right place. As though he were a master who knew how to evoke the most, while wasting nothing. He knew how to hit all those wrong/ yet right notes, artists search for to add mystery and excitement. Refined like the sharpest blade that cuts straight to ones very soul. Thats the best way I can describe it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Another way to look at Bach's music would be that there is a 'bigger picture' being painted *imo* than Handel and Vivaldi. If your attention is caught listening/looking for a specific antagonist and protagonist, you may not find them where you'd expect to see them until you step back and see the massive canvas he is working with, then and only then the picture becomes clear. His music is a massive contrapuntal web, crystalline in structure like a diamond.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Glad to see you finally coming around, Martin, and recognizing that yes, indeed... reducing J.S. Bach to but an hour or 90 minutes of highlights is sheer madness... an absolute act of insanity... something impossible to achieve...
> 
> Now if we were talking of the music of one of those second-rate Russian composers... well that would be another situation altogether. Almost all of them could be reduced to a 1-volume "greatest hits".


I was careful to avoid the term "greatest hits" because I loathe that concept also. Perhaps imagine instead the best possible programme for a short Bach concert, which would demonstrate the scope of his works rather than just recycle his "popular hits", aimed at the classical music enthusiast rather than your average man on the street.


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## zoziejemaar (Dec 15, 2010)

Welcome, ladies and gentleman, at “Bach’s finest hour”!

First: grandiose opening!
- St John’s passion – Opening choir: Herr, unser Herrscher (9 min)
After this violence, on a more quiet, but forcefully sad tone:
- Cantata BWV 4 ‘Christ lag in Todesbanden’ – Den Tod niemand zwingen kunnt (5 min)
Enough vocal things for now, some solo strings can take over now:
- Suite nr. 2 in d minor for cello, BWV 1008 – Allemande (4 min)
- Sonata #1 In G Minor for solo violin, BWV 1001 - 2. Fuga (5 min; the ciaconna is too long, sorry! )
Time perhaps for something more cheerful:
- Brandenburg concerto nr. 6 – 1st mvt (6 min) and
- Violin concerto in a minor BWV 1041 – 3 mvt Allegro assai (4 min)
Now the public is ready for some organ music:
- Passacaglia and fugue in c minor, BWV 582 (13 min)

Ooof, that last note was a relief! Time for a pause! During a glass of wine, we can enjoy the flute sonatas or something.

For the second part: another grandiose opening!
- Cantata BWV 78 ‘Jesu, der du meine Seele‘ – opening choir (6 min)
- Cantata BWV 82 ‘Ich habe genug’ – Bass aria: Ich habe genug (7 min)
Time for the harpsichord:
- Wohltemperierte Klavier, buch I – Prelude and fugue in a minor, BWV 865 (6 min); and
- Keyboard Partita #2 In C Minor, BWV 826 – Capriccio (4 min)
Perhaps the senses are getting a bit tired? Let’s listen to the more funny side of the Leizig cantor!
- Coffee cantata, BWV 211 – Ei! Wie schmeckt der Coffee süsse! (4 min)
OK, that suffices, back to the real stuff:
- Cantata BWV 21, "Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis" - Tenor Aria: Bäche von gesalzenen Zähren (6 min)
And we close with:
- St. Matthew Passion, BWV 244 – Wir setzen uns mit Tränen nieder (5 min)

87 minutes! You could still throw in an encore of the Badinerie (1,5 min) if you wanted!

Next night: just the Goldberg variations. No doubt it will be equally convincing.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Andre said:


> I find those vocal works of Bach a bit boring. I think Bach's musical accompaniment is not more than mere accompaniment, whereas guys like Handel or Vivaldi made the accompaniment a "voice" in it's own right. In them, the accompanists were not merely "shadowing" the voice but they were more of an independent active protagonist in themselves. I'm not a Bach expert, but that's what I tend to hear, and it puts me off a bit, not matter how polished, refined, rarified the atmosphere...


Which works by Handel are you thinking of? Because it's a little unfair comparing cantatas with oratorios, for instance.

Still, I can see why you might think what you do, even though I don't agree. In many performances of Handel there are whole string sections accompanying the soloist, whereas in period-instrument Bach it's often just a single violin or a single wind instrument. This may give the impression that Handel's accompaniments are more substantial and more of an equal partner to the soloist than Bach's. But in the end, I have to say, Bach is pretty well universally acknowledged as giving more independence to each instrument than Handel. It might be helpful to think of the cantatas more as chamber music than as orchestral music.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I agree. ^ Handel is one tiny step closer to the style galante than Bach. Bach's tapestry is more contrapuntal, or at least more overtly contrapuntal.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Well, obviously, one needs to include an excerpt of every important genre and style Bach wrote in. So, it would have to include...

- A substantial organ work (I'd vote for the Passacaglia & Fugue in C minor)
- A movement from the Brandenburg Concerti (1st movement of #2 would suffice)
- A couple of excerpts from his cantatas. I would recommend excerpts from Wachet Auf and Ein Feste Burg ist Unser Gott.
- A Prelude and Fugue from the WTC. Personal favorite: No. 23 in B major, WTC II.
- A movement from one of his pieces for cello or solo violin.
- A couple of excerpts from his major choral works... I would love to have the opening chorus from the _St. John Passion_, and then perhaps a recitative/aria from the _St. Matthew Passion_ that features Jesus's "halo" effect.

The above, I believe, are all quite necessary. If there's still time left we could fill it in with a random excerpt from the Art of Fugue or his Partitas/French Suites..


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I find those vocal works of Bach a bit boring. I think Bach's musical accompaniment is not more than mere accompaniment, whereas guys like Handel or Vivaldi made the accompaniment a "voice" in it's own right. In them, the accompanists were not merely "shadowing" the voice but they were more of an independent active protagonist in themselves.

As others have suggested, I think you're completely off here, Andre. As much as I love Handel (and I would certainly place him somewhere near my top 5) I don't see him offering a greater instrumental accompaniment than Bach. Had you suggested that Handel's accompaniments were more "open"... "airy"... or "transparent" than Bach's, I would have certainly agreed that there is a truth to this in some instances. I would also agree that he is stylistically closer to the more "gallant" style of Italy... and even France. However, to suggest that Bach's instrumental accompaniments are little more than a "shadowing" of the voice is completely off. As Webernite contends, Bach's instrumental accompaniments make the greatest use of a vast array of instruments in various configurations: solo and in groups ranging from duets and quartets to the entire baroque orchestra... and in no way are these merely shadowing the lead vocal line. In most cases they weave together with the vocal lines in a manner which Weston aptly describes as a contrapuntal tapestry.

In this excerpt from Bach's Mass in B-minor the instrumental introduction consisting of strings and organ establish the main theme. As the vocal enters it deviates and then returns to this theme in a fugue-like manner. The voice itself, also echoes the sound of the organ pipes that Bach employs in the introduction .






_Erbarme Dich _, one of the most marvelous arias from the St. Matthew Passion employs a marvelous contrast between a small group of strings (which again establish the initial theme) and the very different... almost unearthly voice of the alto/countertenor:






And again on _Gott hat alles wohlgemacht_ from the Cantata 35:






Now I can understand your difficulty with Bach in light of your previously admitted difficulty with contrapuntal music in general... and Bach makes constant and incredibly complex use of counterpoint... employing the voice or voices as one more layer within the whole building off the initial theme. Personally, I've always been attracted to such formal structures in music. They strike me a a musical architecture... rather like the repetitive forms of a Gothic Cathedral or the patterns in an Islamic Mosque. Undoubtedly, my affinity for such architectural structure is behind my equal admiration for the complex works of Dufay, Tallis, Monteverdi, Gesualdo, medieval chant, Miles Davis Kind of Blue and Indian ragas. It may also go some way toward explaining why I'm not overly enthralled with the sloppy formalism of a great deal of Russian Romanticism.

Of course Bach could also write for the larger orchestra in a more gallant manner when needed... and when he had the appropriate forces at hand. And just look at the array of instrumental ornamentation or coloring employed:


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Very tasteful suggestions all up. With over 1,000 pieces of works that survived down to us, the statistical combinations are infinite! Everyone has pretty much covered the main ones.

I could add the trio sonata section of _The Musical Offering_, which unlike the rest of the work, was actually intended for performance with tempi and basso continuo parts fully written out. A late piece.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

> It might be helpful to think of the cantatas more as chamber music than as orchestral music.





> ...and Bach makes constant and incredibly complex use of counterpoint... employing the voice or voices as one more layer within the whole building off the initial theme. Personally, I've always been attracted to such formal structures in music. They strike me a a musical architecture... rather like the repetitive forms of a Gothic Cathedral or the patterns in an Islamic Mosque.


These are good points. I'll have to try to listen to Bach's vocal works as chamber pieces. & experience them like buildings. The British conductor Adrian Boult compared conducting a live performance to building a huge edifice before people's eyes. It's as if people "walk in" the building, look around, then "walk out." I often perceive some composers music as landscapes - eg. Beethoven & Tippett's string quartets, or Bruckner's symphonies. I think I can understand what you are saying, st. lukes, the repetitiveness of say the finale of the _3rd Brandenburg Concerto_ definitely has a "pattern" to it. Perhaps associating Bach's music with these kinds of tangible things makes them appear less abstract & more concrete, or "real?"...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Ravellian said:


> Well, obviously, one needs to include an excerpt of every important genre and style Bach wrote in. So, it would have to include...
> 
> - A substantial organ work (I'd vote for the Passacaglia & Fugue in C minor)
> - A movement from the Brandenburg Concerti (1st movement of #2 would suffice)
> ...


Reducing my 200+ CD collection to 90 min is criminal, but this is more or less what I would go for, with some minor changes (I would pick Ich habe genug as one of the cantata excerpts for instance).


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I would have to think about this one quite a bit as I would need 90 minutes just for keyboard works! Then at least another hour for violin. Then I can start thinking about other works.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I definitely need to study Bach deeper to get even close to an idea of a top 90 minutes. I guess this shows who the experts of Bach are.


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

No no no. I refuse to cut works down to excerpts. No. I'll give you the entire B minor Mass, since the St Matthew Passion is too long for your time limit. Now, of course, the Mass version can't be Klemperer's or we will be far off limits too.  

We could add a second programme of purely orchestra works. We could fit a violin concerto (the A minor or the Double), a Brandenburg concerto (the 5th), a Harpsichord concerto (though the previous choice basically gives us two; anyway, of course BWV 1052), and an Overture (B minor again). Then with the little time left I would include the organ Passacaglia in C minor, a couple inventions for Harpsichord....

Oh yes and the Cantatas? 

And the Violin sonatas? The Cello suites? 

This idea is criminal


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