# Which composer would have been the most interesting case if he had lived longer?



## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

I Think Beethoven would have been interesting. He was a rebel in a time that everyone had to follow very strict rules, and he developed his music more and more considering how genius he was, it wouldnt stop with his ninth symph and late quartets... who knows what he could compose...
I think Mozart and Schubert are interesting too.
Both died in a very young age, and both got their most impressive works (consensus) in the years before they died (e.g Mozart - two symphs, Great Mass, Requiem, PCs etc.
Schubert - two symphs, 4 SQ, piano quintet, string quintet, 2 PTs, Octet, Mass, 3 PSs)
works that are now considered among the best of their genres.

Which composers do you think would have been the most interesting cases?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

*Scriabin* - Died quite young at 44 while working on his "_Mysterium_", by this time he was batsh*t insane, and this piece was supposed to be be performed in the Himalayas by thousands of participants for a full week before ushering in the end of the world. Would have been interesting to say the least.

*Wagner* - Died at a decent age of 70, but by today's standards he could've expected to get a good 10-15 more years of solid writing done. Supposedly he was to take a break from opera writing, and was beginning work on a symphony; I very much would've liked to hear what a mature Wagnerian symphony sounds like.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

The composers in the OP are the ones that came to my mind at first, but I would predictably add Brahms as well. He lived to a respectable 64, and while I wouldn't necessarily claim that he would offer the kind of repeated innovations that a longer-lived Beethoven might have created, Brahms would have remained a bottomless well of sublime beauty until his dying day - at 64 or 164 - and I'd take just one more shred of Brahmsian beauty over any great Beethovenian revelation.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

There's always Mahler, of course, sitting at the edge of atonality in his 10th symphony. Makes one wonder what he'd have done had he lived another 20 years.

I'm rather interested in what Schubert would have done had he lived longer as well. He wasn't even really at the peak of his powers when he died; based on his later instrumental works, I'd bet that if he lived much longer he would be much more highly-regarded/well-known today. And that's saying rather a lot.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Schubert and Mozart would have made everyone else look pathetic if they'd lived any longer, they were such bright lights in their short careers, its just a shame. Also Georges Bizet fits into that category, perhaps similar things could be said for Chopin. I agree with Scriabin very much as well, and perhaps Debussy would have written something really fantastic as well. 

I also wish Balakirev had not gotten weirded out and into christianity, and had composed consistently throughout his life, he had so much potential.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

There was also an english composer named Samuel Wesley in the classical period, known as the english Mozart, but he had a head injury in his early 20s/late teens after having shown himself to be a very promising composer and was never the same again.

Also, I think Henry Purcell died pretty young.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I agree with the choice of Schubert and Mozart. Mozart, one might argue, was just beginning to hit his stride. His final piano concertos, symphonies, operas, the Requiem, etc... all rank among the greatest things he had yet produced. At age 35 it is mind-boggling to imagine what another 35 years might have achieved. One might fantasize about a trip to London with Haydn where he might begin to truly expand upon his choral writing after close examination of Handel and the English choral tradition. One suspects he might have pushed further within the realm of the Magic Flute toward a native German opera... or even (had he stayed in Britain taking advantage of the English theaters and orchestras) an English opera. One also wonders what he might have made of the symphony and the piano concerto following Beethoven's lead... and developments of the piano.

But Schubert seems even more promising. In spite of his age at his death... as well as the fact that he lacked the formal musical education that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Haydn, etc... as well as their virtuosity as performers... he still achieved an oeuvre that stands among the greatest ever achieved... not far beneath Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, etc... One imagines Schubert taking the symphony to places well beyond what Beethoven had achieved. With time and experience one can only imagine what he might have achieved as far as opera goes... perhaps something more along the lines of Mozart's _Singspiel_? How many more magnificent songs and string quartets might he have produced?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I also wonder what could have become of Chausson had he not been so wealthy that he didn't have to work. That symphony in B flat is so jaw dropping. Certain composers had intense raw talent but were in the wrong circumstances to develop it.


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## beethovenian (May 2, 2011)

Definitely Schubert and Mozart.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes, just having listened to his _Deutsche Messe _(German Mass) this week, had he lived longer *Schubert* would have been an *ABSOLUTE BEAST *of a composer! I don't put him "beneath" anyone at the time, not even the great Beethoven. Schubert was just different, his music speaks of his ability to write great melodies & develop them in a very unique way.

All of the others mentioned above I agree with, & yes it is true a "mature symphony" from Wagner would have been great (esp. for people like myself who are not huge opera fans, even though the famous orch./choral bits from his operas offer quite a bit of "meat" to chew on in themselves).

Some that I know/like that haven't been mentioned -

*Alban Berg* - died aged only 50 - One of the "trio" of the c20th Viennese School, a major composer of his day.

*George Gershwin* - died only aged 39 - One of the few composers who could do both Broadway musicals & "serious" music with panache and imagination. Said he was thinking of composing things like a string quartet & symphony, but these never happened. Like Schubert, one of the most able of melodists of all time.

*Kurt Weill* - died only aged 50 - Similar to Gershwin in his facility with the "light" & "serious" genres, he did "one better" - after his successful partnership with Brecht in Europe, he crossed the Atlantic into the USA & it was not long before he conquered Broadway. Many of his songs - eg. _The Ballad of Mack the Knife_ from _The Threepenny Opera _- are among the most "covered" in recording history.

& isn't if "funny" that on the converse side, there were guys like Elgar & Sibelius who lived quite a long time (30 years in the latter's case) between virtually retiring from music and their death, yet didn't produce any major works during that time. Well, Sibelius did write his 8th symphony, but he burnt it & told his publisher to destroy any copies. But even Rossini, who retired at about 35, still kept his hand "in the trade," writing some works that are considered among his finest, what he called "the sins of my old age"...


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

Any of the great composers that died at birth.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mozart
John Foulds 
Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (his string quartets are wonderful and he died when he was only 20 years old)
Schubert
Pergolesi
Purcell
Lili Boulanger (only 24)
George Gershwin
Peter Warlock (36)
Webern
and of course, Leo Ornstein


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

norman bates said:


> ...and of course, Leo Ornstein


:lol: + Elliott Carter...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Sofronitsky said:


> Any of the great composers that died at birth.


Abortion debate in 4, 3, 2

Edit: Schoenberg, not that he wasn't at a fairly ripe age. Maybe he would have made some pretty terrifying music in his 100s.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Scriabin's son, Julian - died aged 11, a budding composer & pianist, anyone heard any of his pieces?...


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

It's useless to say "Mozart/Schubert would have been the greatest had they lived longer" as if it were fact. It's possible, but then it's also possible that they peaked early a la Mendelssohn. I mean, it's no different from assuming that Beethoven would have pulled a Haydn and created his greatest works in his 60's...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Chopin - I would like to hear his Violin Sonata which he started to draft just before his death, then perhaps 3rd piano concerto to be "the" 3rd, despite Rachmaninoff.

Juliusz Zarębski - died at age of 31 with couple of finished works that make promise he could go shoulder to shoulder with Debussy. He was Liszt's student and friend and grown on experiments of his teacher as well as on Chopin (actually he was one of few composers that could draw inspiration from him instead of aping). In one of his letters he claimed he dreams of writing an opera (he admired Wagner). When I was reading fragment from his letter in which he reveals such will it brought me to tears. 

Mieczysław Karłowicz - died at 33 under mountain avalanche after reaching opus number of 14 (unfinished at the time of his death). Eight-nine mature works of his are enough to call him great but if he had lived longer? There are some evidences that he wanted to engage in other genres (including opera).

Vincenzo Bellini - two or three operas more from him wouldn't be harmful, would they?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I'll have to say SCHUBERT. It's as if he was only opening the doors to some otherworldly greatness that would have made him the greatest composer ever, had he lived a bit longer. I mean, I hear that he was considering taking more lessons in counterpoint during his final years! Think about it: his innate sense of beauty and harmony and his newfound compositional bravery in breadth and structure (the 9th symphony) and style (the unfinished symphony, string quintet) combined with some hypothetically badass counterpoint bombardment... maybe he would have had Mozart, Beethoven AND Bruckner running for the hills!

Of course it's just speculation. But it's his early death, of all composers, that saddens me the most. He's ALREADY one of the best, and his late works point to a frighteningly awesome direction. He had been such a shy and timid person all his life, and his late compositions hint of a newfound bravery and resolve.


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd take 10 more years of Beethoven over 40 more years of Schubert, easy.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Curiosity said:


> I'd take 10 more years of Beethoven over 40 more years of Schubert, easy.


I think it has something to do with my lack of imagination: I can sort of imagine, what Schubert could have made. He could have wed Mozartian light to Beethovenian darkness, he might have created Brucknerian pathos and Mahlerian tragicomedy all by himself, perhaps mixing minor keys with major... But with Beethoven... it's the end! He had achieved everything, sort of "ended" classical music all by himself. The late string quartets, grosse fugue, missa solemnis, 9th symphony... what more can be said? I'm sure he WOULD have had something more to say, but my mind explodes when I try to think of it.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Xaltotun said:


> I think it has something to do with my lack of imagination: I can sort of imagine, what Schubert could have made. He could have wed Mozartian light to Beethovenian darkness, he might have created Brucknerian pathos and Mahlerian tragicomedy all by himself, perhaps mixing minor keys with major... But with Beethoven... it's the end! He had achieved everything, sort of "ended" classical music all by himself. The late string quartets, grosse fugue, missa solemnis, 9th symphony... what more can be said? I'm sure he WOULD have had something more to say, but my mind explodes when I try to think of it.


That's probably what makes him interesting (Beethoven). He achieved so much, so we cant even imagine what else he could have written unlike Schubert or Mozart.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Curiosity said:


> It's useless to say "Mozart/Schubert would have been the greatest had they lived longer" as if it were fact. It's possible, but then it's also possible that they peaked early a la *Mendelssohn*.


I have to challenge you on that one. Although some of his greatest works were written early in his life, to my eyes and ears, his last major work is probably his best one overall (i.e 6th SQ Op. 80).

I agree with the members about Chopin, now when Im listening to his etudes (the revolutionary was played not so long  ) Im pretty curious what else he could have composed.

And I have to agree with member polednice about Brahms. I think his late works, especially chamber, are among the best exist (e.g Clarinet works, 2nd SQuintet), but Brahms was beautiful in all of his eras in his life.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Definitely agree with Sid about Alban Berg - gone far too soon. Pity he couldn't have got Lulu finished a bit quicker so he could have left us with one or two things more but it was the nature of the man to work at a painstakingly slow pace. Perhaps we should be grateful he at least managed to get his violin concerto done in time.

Apart from him, Mahler and Schubert are probably the ones that hurt most with the 'what if...' question.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Curiosity said:


> It's useless to say "Mozart/Schubert would have been the greatest had they lived longer" as if it were fact. It's possible, but then it's also possible that they peaked early a la Mendelssohn. I mean, it's no different from assuming that Beethoven would have pulled a Haydn and created his greatest works in his 60's...


That is so cynical. Get off your Beethoven high horse! Mozart and Schubert were not like Mendelsohn, especially Schubert, I just don't get that sense from them. And Beethoven was suffering from hearing loss, depression, and lead poisoning, he might not have made such profound music were it not for that, nor could he have lived much longer due to that.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

I would have liked a few more years of *Benjamin Britten*. He was writing major works like Phaedra and the third string quartet right at the end of his life


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sofronitsky said:


> Any of the great composers that died at birth.


Deep. And empty, but I like it anyway. Like a 55 foot curveball, it doesn't do the job - but was definitely a curve.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

norman bates said:


> Mozart
> Lili Boulanger (only 24)
> Webern


Those were the three I was thinking of that I personally would have liked to hear more from. I'm into sacred music, and Mozart had just hit on a new way to write sacred music just before he died; he surely would have made more amazing contributions to that genre. Lili Boulenger had such great promise. And Anton Webern was actually loosening his music and becoming more lyrical. I wonder what his influence on the Darmstadt school would have been if he were there in person.

I've said this before in another forum, but Jacob Obrecht was a tremendous loss in 1505.

Of course, in contrast to these, I recall Peter Schickele's comment about PDQ Bach: He was born ahead of his time but died not a moment too soon.


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## CaptainAzure (May 2, 2011)

There's no doubt in my mind that had Mozart, Mendelssohn and Schubert lived longer I would bum them even harder than I do now.
And let's not forget what Chopin could have done.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Sid James said:


> Scriabin's son, Julian - died aged 11, a budding composer & pianist, anyone heard any of his pieces?...







Sounds quite a bit like his old man, I would say.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

Lots of great names so far, particularly *Mahler *amd *Arriaga*. In Mahler's case, it's a double whammy, as conductors traditionally live very long lives!

I wanted to add two names to the list, both from my native province of Quebec, and probably wanted to suggest a "twist" to the thread:

1 - Claude VIVIER, who was murderd in Paris in 1983 a month shy of his 35th birthday. He is a fairly "accessible" contemporary composer, and would recommend sampling his _Orion_ which was commissioned by the Montreal Symphony a few years before his death.

2 - Andre MATHIEU: in his case, we have the double tragedy of a death before age 40 but also the added tragedy of having been a child prodigy (both as a composer and a pianist), exploited by his Father, driven to an alcoholic downward-spiral which precipitated his death. Quebec pianist Alain Lefevre has championed and recorded many of his piano pieces, including three concerti.

The "twist": as in Mathieu's case, death is not the only thing that can "stunt" or otherwise curtail a career. Maybe we could also consider composers who never fulfilled their full potential? Would someone like Mendelssohn fit that mould?


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

itywltmt said:


> Maybe we could also consider composers who never fulfilled their full potential? Would someone like Mendelssohn fit that mould?


I've often felt this way about Shostakovich. I often wonder what he would have composed had he been free to follow his own creative urges without the fear of government censorship. The same could be said of pretty much all of the great Soviet era composers as well. Not to mention those whose careers' never took off and are therefore relatively unknown today because they refused to compromise and were sidelined as a result.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Actually I have mixed feeling about getting Arriaga in that list. I think his SQ are nice, not more. Mendelssohn worte in that age and earlier his SQs Opp. 12, 13 and the Octet that are far more impressive by a kid (and beautiful if I may). I dont know his symphony, but I think that other composers were bigger losses than Arriaga. Only my opinion.

It is possible he could have written magnificent things, but I dont see the genius mind in his existing material.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

SuperTonic said:


> I've often felt this way about Shostakovich. I often wonder what he would have composed had he been free to follow his own creative urges without the fear of government censorship. The same could be said of pretty much all of the great Soviet era composers as well. Not to mention those whose careers' never took off and are therefore relatively unknown today because they refused to compromise and were sidelined as a result.


And like I said before, Chausson, and Balakirev. Both had problems that got in the way.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

itywltmt said:


> 2 - Andre MATHIEU: in his case, we have the double tragedy of a death before age 40 but also the added tragedy of having been a child prodigy (both as a composer and a pianist), exploited by his Father, driven to an alcoholic downward-spiral which precipitated his death. Quebec pianist Alain Lefevre has championed and recorded many of his piano pieces, including three concerti.
> 
> The "twist": as in Mathieu's case, death is not the only thing that can "stunt" or otherwise curtail a career. Maybe we could also consider composers who never fulfilled their full potential? Would someone like Mendelssohn fit that mould?


The Rachmaninoff of Canada. He had so much potential.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

Pieck said:


> Actually I have mixed feeling about getting Arriaga in that list. I think his SQ are nice, not more. Mendelssohn worte in that age and earlier his SQs Opp. 12, 13 and the Octet that are far more impressive by a kid (and beautiful if I may). I dont know his symphony, but I think that other composers were bigger losses than Arriaga. Only my opinion.
> 
> It is possible he could have written magnificent things, but I dont see the genius mind in his existing material.


I own a recording of his Symphony in D minor as well as his SQ's, and I generally have a good impression. The entire (very limited) body of work can't allow us to judge "genius" (and I would argue "genius" wasn't a requirement here, just "what if he had more time").


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

That's probably what makes him interesting (Beethoven). He achieved so much, so we cant even imagine what else he could have written unlike Schubert or Mozart.

As much as I love Beethoven, the notion that he achieved so much that one cannot even begin to imagine more ignores the oeuvres of Bach and Handel that absolutely dwarf anyone for the sheer volume of masterpieces. It's quite likely that given another 10 years Bach may have produced far more works of genius than any other composer given the same chance. The reason one looks to Schubert and Mozart most of all is for the simple reason that they died so young: Schubert at 31, Mozart at 35. In spite of their relative youth, they had both produced a phenomenal body of masterful music and were both at the peak of their game... rapidly turning out new and ever greater works in these final years. In the last ten years of Mozart's life he churned out 7 major operas, 4 of which rank consistently among the greatest ever composed (Le nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, Die Zauberflote, Cosi fan tutte). He also composed almost all of his greatest symphonies (35-41), all of the piano concertos from no. 11 onward, the marvelous concert arias, the clarinet quintet and clarinet concerto, his late quartets, a slew of masterful quintets, the Gran Partita, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, the serenade for winds, the Requiem... as well as literally hundreds of other works (sonatas, chamber works, songs, choral pieces, etc...)


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Although I would have liked to see them all live longer, I think I'll go with Wolfie...626 could be 1500 or more


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Ya know, I wonder if Mozart and Schubert churned out so many great works before their deaths _because_ they knew they were dying and somehow that made their brain unleash their "hidden potential" early.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

I find the angle many oif you have pursued (looking ath the Great Masters and wondering "What if") kind of intriguing. in this regard:

I sometimes wonder "what if [Name your Great Master]" could attend any concert today, and listen to the works of composers who came after him, what would be their reaction or opinion.

Would, say, Mozart have a high opinion of Stravinsky, say?

Getting back to Mozart, and looking at his later symphonies,(for example) we see him moving out of the "box" drawn by clacissism. Would an older Mozart have ushered in early romanticism decades before it came to being? Could Beethoven have discoivered the Tone Poem?


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> There was also an english composer named Samuel Wesley in the classical period, known as the english Mozart, but he had a head injury in his early 20s/late teens after having shown himself to be a very promising composer and was never the same again.
> 
> Also, I think Henry Purcell died pretty young.


I believe Purcell was only about 36 when he died in 1695.
It was a shame he never made it into the 18th century and composed a few sets of concertos.
They would undoubtedly have been masterpieces.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

itywltmt said:


> I find the angle many oif you have pursued (looking ath the Great Masters and wondering "What if") kind of intriguing. in this regard:
> 
> I sometimes wonder "what if [Name your Great Master]" could attend any concert today, and listen to the works of composers who came after him, what would be their reaction or opinion.
> 
> ...


Dude, I have always always ALWAYS wanted to bring Beethoven or Mozart back from the dead and explain to them what happened with music after they died and let them listen to everything and then have them tell me what they think. If that happened my life would be complete.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

violadude said:


> Dude, I have always always ALWAYS wanted to bring Beethoven or Mozart back from the dead and explain to them what happened with music after they died and let them listen to everything and then have them tell me what they think. If that happened my life would be complete.


Glad I'm not alone with that fantasy! However, in mine, Mozart can't leave the house, as he's fascinated by that "image box" in the living room.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

itywltmt said:


> Glad I'm not alone with that fantasy! However, in mine, Mozart can't leave the house, as he's fascinated by that "image box" in the living room.


I would be a little worried that they might have a heart attack from seeing a car zoom by at "lightspeed"


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## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

Curiosity said:


> I'd take 10 more years of Beethoven over 40 more years of Schubert, easy.


I reckon that Beethoven had already played his best shots long before he died. Although I have always liked Beethoven, and still do to some extent, my early focus on him eventually gave way to appreciation of various other composers. At one time, I couldn't imagine myself ever admitting to it but I now have to confess that I'm no longer much of a fan of Beethoven's late period. He seemed to become mainly interested in pushing the boundaries of music at the expense of melody, and it's good melody that I most enjoy in classical music. Beethoven's brand of melody, even in his earlier works, is rather peculiar, and not of the conventional kind but rather contrived. Furthermore it is said that good melody is the one thing in classical music that cannot be taught; you either have it or you don't.

To be honest, I've also grown a teeny bit tired of all that driving energy you get with Beethoven. It's great when you're new to classical music because it helps keep you keep awake, but it can begin to drag after a few years. Another strong feature of Beethoven's music which is so initially attractive but which can become tiresome is the highly predicatable interplay between piano and violin: "here I am says" the piano, "yes i can here you" responds the violin. Just listen to it. Other composers of this era did much the same thing because it was all part of the style, but with Beethoven it's highly pronounced.

Enough on Beethoven. This is a very easy choice actually, and I can't see why there should be much debate. For me, the clear favourites for composers whose potential works we are most robbed of are Mozart and Schubert. There was a poll on this same topic about two years ago ("Add 20 years to their lives"), and these two came out on top. Each of them was supremely gifted in the melody department, were highly prolific, and could write extremely good music right across the spectrum of genres.

On most polls about the greatest composers, Mozart and Schubert generally come out at or close to the very top of the rankings, and these two are the ones who died the youngest whilst at the peak (or apparent peak) of their abilities. On the contrary, Haydn had retired years before his death. Beethoven had reached the end of the road given his serious drinking problem and the onset of crippling cirrhosis and ascites. Brahms had done everything and had already retired once before before coaxed out agian to write a few more works, but after the death of Clara he was finished. Bach wrote far too much anyway. OK a lot of Bach's music was superb, but enough's enough. He had more than a fair innings, and achieved all that could have been expected.

Just a few words on a couple of others who died very young, as mentioned previously. Mendelssohn would be my third choice, after Mozart and Schubert. He was a really fantastic composer in my opinion and there must surely have been a lot more excellent material from him had he lived longer. Chopin doesn't interest me all that much. I used to like him in years gone by but the novelty has now largely worn off. Some of his material I accept is very good but as far I'm concerned I'm not all that impressed with his many short 2-3 minute efforts, most of which lacked any cohesion and which were not very melodic. He was still churning out this same old stuff up to the bitter end. I would have preferred to see more from Schumann rather than Chopin.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

violadude said:


> Dude, I have always always ALWAYS wanted to bring Beethoven or Mozart back from the dead and explain to them what happened with music after they died.


Didn't Bill and Ted do that? At least with Beethoven.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

There was once someone who had to fight with the whole tribe alone and in the forest he met the tribe of old geezers and they say WE STRONGLY WARRIORS and he sees that they hardly walk so he says YEA BRIGHT EHEHE but he went with them into battle, and suddenly they began to groan and geezers do somersaults 100 meters above the ground and they defeated all


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I've always been very disappointed that Carl Nielsen,who was born in the same year as Sibelius , 1865 ,lived only to the age of 66, dying in 1931, and Sibelius, who died in
1957, abandoned composition for the most part in 1920s, never coming out with his much anticipated 8th symphony,which he apparently burned.
Nielsen planned to write a series of five wind concertos ,after having written his wonderful woodwind quintet for the members of the Copenhagen woodwind quintet,one for flute,oboe,clarinet, bassoon and horn. But he lived only long enough to write the clarinet and flute concertos, which are certainly masterpieces of the highest order.
And as a former horn player, I'll never forgive him for dying before producing a horn concerto. It would probably have been fiendishly difficult to play, though.
And too bad that Sibelius didn't produce more masterpieces after the 20s,too.
It's still not entirely certain why Sibelius apparently burned out as a composer.There's been much speculation, but no definite explanation.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Modest Mussorgsky, dead at 42 from what was probably acute alcohol poisoning... what would have happened if there was a rehab institute that could have straightened him out? Many of his works are fragmentary, and just being able to finish Khovanschina or The Fair at Sorozhinsk would have been something. As it is now, his life output could probably fit on ten or so CD's. 

Let Mussorgsky live to the biblical three score and ten and he's around in 1909, possibly getting visits from some young kid who's writing a ballet called The Firebird.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I know our most famous photo of Tchaikovsky shows him as an old guy, balding, with white hair and beard. In the photo he looks like he's in his seventies. But he was only 53 when he died, and he was a late bloomer. His greatest ballet (The Sleeping Beauty), symphony (the Pathetique, of course) and the opera The Queen of Spades date from the last three years of his life.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Aramis said:


> There was once someone who had to fight with the whole tribe alone and in the forest he met the tribe of old geezers and they say WE STRONGLY WARRIORS and he sees that they hardly walk so he says YEA BRIGHT EHEHE but he went with them into battle, and suddenly they began to groan and geezers do somersaults 100 meters above the ground and they defeated all


Agreed with you (I think?) - a lot of people push their usual old barrow, their old "classic" agenda - eg. I like this guy the most, so he would have had more potential than x, and we HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN guy x & guy y. That's what it seems to boil down to a lot around here, but oh well, not everyone thinks like this. Speaking of which you mentioned those three Polish composers & I'dd add *Szymanowski *(who you know, I like his stuff as well, vary varied composer) - I think he was only 50 or so when he died. Born around the same time as Stravinsky who lived into his nineties. I wonder what tangents Szymanowski would have explored had he lived as long as that? It's a sad fact that many of the composers mentioned would have been "cured" of their disease had they had recourse to modern medicines - eg. Mahler, Szymanowski, Chopin, probably also Schubert, Mozart (although the cause of their deaths is debated to some degree).

*@ fsharpmajor* - Thx for posting Julian Scriabin clip, I found it interesting, yes some interesting harmonies there & quite mature for someone so young (& I'd guess he wasn't a slouch at the piano to compose/play that). I only know his father's orch. works well, I can't compare their piano works, but as you say (& the Wiki entry on him) his music is reminiscent of his dad's.

*@ waldvogel* - Your mentioning Mussorgsky brings to mind a French c20th composer who also died in his forties who struggled and lost the battle with the bottle, *Jean Barraque*(1928-1973). He only composed about 3 cd's worth of music, but many say this compares favourably in terms of imaginativeness, uniqueness, innovativeness, etc. with those of Pierre Boulez, who is just 3 years older. Barraque's piano sonata is at the level of Boulez's ones.

*@ superhorn* - re Sibelius - I think it's hard to say why he went into that long period of "silence." I remember seeing an interview with Rautavaara, Finnish composer who knew the man, & he said that Sibelius was extremely self-critical & very sensitive to negative criticism. I think they all were to some degree, but Sibelius was doubly so. He also felt out of touch with the latest developments, the younger composers. Theodore Adorno's attack on him as something like "the worst composer in history" didn't help one bit either. Then there's the issue of alcoholism & also that he got a govt. pension early on, so probably didn't need to compose to eat & pay the bills, that sort of thing? That's not a judgement, that's just how I think it may have kind of happened, that he "shut up shop." As I mentioned, Elgar was similar, WW1 & the death of his wife affected him badly, he composed a few major works of the highest quality, then went into mainly doing other things - eg. supporting younger composers & also putting down a number of his own works on record (I think Sibelius did some of these things too, hence his freindship/aquaintance with guys like Rautavaara?)...


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Abortion debate in 4, 3, 2
> 
> Edit: Schoenberg, not that he wasn't at a fairly ripe age. Maybe he would have made some pretty terrifying music in his 100s.


 Haha I wasn't really talking about abortion. Amount of abortion deaths hardly compares to the amount of natural deaths in babies/young children in the last 500 years.


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## bumtz (Aug 6, 2011)

*Gideon Klien* who perished aged 25 in a concentration camp during WW2. His _Partita fuer Streicher_ is outstanding, and really original.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

I would have loved to hear Mozart's 124th symphony (written in 1841) or Schuberts 33rd (1877). Not to mention Schubert's fourteen piano concertos, five flute concertos, three clarinet concertos, eight violin concertos, three cello concertos, two horn concertos, four oboe concertos, six viola concertos and, by all means, his bassoon concerto. 

Sixty more years' worth of Arriaga would have been nice too. 

But those three are obvious ones. Even when composers die at 65 instead of 85, it's a great loss. What would Bartok have been like in the 1960s and 1970s, for example?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Sofronitsky said:


> Haha I wasn't really talking about abortion. Amount of abortion deaths hardly compares to the amount of natural deaths in babies/young children in the last 500 years.


Never mind natural deaths, what about all the _murders_ that take place every time someone uses contraception.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Polednice said:


> Never mind natural deaths, what about all the _murders_ that take place every time someone uses contraception.


If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I got a new one to mention!

Russian composer Vassily Kalinnikov (1866-1901) - It was considered a great tragedy that he died so young, some music historians/critics say he could have been the next Tchaikovsky. He wrote 2 symphonies, but they are amazing. Imagine if he wrote a whole Symphony Cycle, plus anything else...

Wondering about "What ifs" are always kind of bad to do though. What happened was what happened, it couldn't have happened any other way.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.


I loooove that song!!  And for the benefit of anyone who hasn't heard it before:


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Lili Boulanger, a very talented composer who died at 24.

http://www.talkclassical.com/11638-composers-saying-goodbye-2.html#post184311

(This is the second time in two or three days I've linked to one of my own posts; I'm becoming far too self-referential...)


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Meaghan said:


> Lili Boulanger, a very talented composer who died at 24.
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/11638-composers-saying-goodbye-2.html#post184311
> 
> (This is the second time in two or three days I've linked to one of my own posts; I'm becoming far too self-referential...)


You clearly have no choice because you're just so amazing.


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## CaptainAzure (May 2, 2011)

How about Vincenzo Bellini?? One third of the Bel Canto trinity he died at the age of thirty bloody three.
_I puritani_ was finished in the year of his death and he was already writing bel canto masterpieces like _Norma_ before his 30th birthday. That man could have done more for opera than any other mortal had he been given 25-30 more years.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Wondering about "What ifs" are always kind of bad to do though. What happened was what happened, it couldn't have happened any other way.


Yes, it could have, it just didnt.


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## UberB (Apr 16, 2011)

Definitely Beethoven, he would have innovated so much more.

Mozart is second place for me; he would have written so much more beautiful music (seriously, if he lived to 80....I think we would have K2000's) but somehow I don't think he would have been as innovative as Beethoven.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

What about Alkan? His music was ahead of his time and I don't think he has achieved the same kudos his contempories have. His major/minor etudes are masterpeices in thier own right. Imagine another 20 years from him!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I got a new one to mention!
> 
> Russian composer Vassily Kalinnikov (1866-1901) - It was considered a great tragedy that he died so young, some music historians/critics say he could have been the next Tchaikovsky. He wrote 2 symphonies, but they are amazing. Imagine if he wrote a whole Symphony Cycle, plus anything else...


Another Russian of that time was *Anton Arensky*, whose stuff you must know? His teacher, Rimsky-Korsakov, said he'd be forgotten (for being a Tchaikovsky rehash or something like that). Well I think history has proven R-K wrong in terms of Arensky being forgotten, his piano trio has entered the repertoire (or is at least on the sidelines of doing that). I heard this work live last year & I thought it was very good. Certainly not as "dark" as Tchaikovsky's & Rachmaninov's of that similar time (around 1890's-1900's) but I see that as kind of a strength not a weakness. If he had lived longer, Arensky could have worked on developing his talent for lyricism & broken away from the Tchaikovsky mould. I think he was only in his forties & was another victim of the bottle (like many Russians, it seems).


> Wondering about "What ifs" are always kind of bad to do though. What happened was what happened, it couldn't have happened any other way.


Well, you're right, I kind of see it as it doesn't matter where you are born & where you die. It's the "in between" bit, the "meat in the sandwich" that counts. Some of my favourite composers composed comparatively little, but what they did give us, their value is of inverse proportion to the amount of works/pieces they penned...


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Beethoven is, of course, the obvious choice. I would have also liked to have seen what Schumann would have done had he lived a bit longer, especially in his symphonic writing.


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