# Rhythm by measure



## Heck148

This is a concept that indicates that a melody is to be rhythmically grouped by designated number of measures. It can have wide application in music performance - esp in Scherzos, dances, waltzes, or movements that are essentially 1 beat/measure in steady tempo.

Beethoven uses it most famously, in the scherzo[II] of Symphony #9 - he indicates:

*ritmo di tre battute* ("rhythm of three beats"), = one downbeat every three measures
* ritmo di quattro battute* (rhythm of 4 beats) = one downbeat every four measures

This is most ingenious, as Beethoven has each successive entrance of the main tune enter on the 4th measure [tre battute] and then on the 5th measure [quattro battute] - the tempo remains constant throughout, but the melodic grouping changes from three bars to 4 bars...it goes back and forth.

IOW - rather than incessantly dictating a downbeat for every measure, the conductor can conduct a pattern of 3 or 4 depending on the rhythmic grouping. if the work is written in 3/4 [1 beat/bar] than this would equate with conducting it in 9/4 or 12/4. This certainly helps with the phrasing, and brings out the internal melodic and harmonic structure. 
This same concept can be applied to many such movements - certainly the Scherzo from Schubert #9 [III] , and most all of the Bruckner Scherzi fit into the pattern of "ritmo di quattro battute" -

There are many other examples of this - often a March or a waltz will readily fall into 4 beat patterns...lots of dance music fits into this idea...try it sometime when you are listening to a Bruckner
scherzo [be careful tho, sometimes Bruckner will stick in a couple of extra measures, just to mix it up!!]

Another prime example of this rhythmic concept occurs in Dukas' "Sorcerer's Apprentice" - here the work is written in 3/8 time signature - 1 beat/bar - once the bassoons get the old broom moving. but this is defintiely "ritmo di tre battute" - it really falls neatly into 9/8 - 1 downbeat/3 measures...
This immediately brings out the correct phrasing - and from a practical point of view - makes it much easier for the orchestra to stay with it thru long rests - ie - it is WAY easier to count 32 measures in 3, than to count 96 measures in "1". :lol:


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## millionrainbows

Very interesting! This seems to be the way Western composers and conductors have dealt with the fact that those "downbeats" in 9/8 or 12/8 are not able to be put into the time signature, the same way Western time signatures are unable to indicate the "pulse" of a shuffle. The compromise is indicating "shuffle feel" or notating it in 12/8 (for something that feels more like a 4/4). Who wants to count to 12? Not the bass player or drummer.

The problem lies with our note values, indicated by the bottom number in the time signature: always 2, 4, 8, etc., and notated in 12/8 as dotted eighths. You can't put a dotted eighth in a time signature (unless you're Charles Ives), and when a 12/8 has 4 main pulses, it is counter-intuitive to count to 12 instead of 4.


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## Heck148

millionrainbows said:


> Very interesting! This seems to be the way Western composers and conductors have dealt with the fact that those "downbeats" in 9/8 or 12/8 are not able to be put into the time signature...


actually, the standard time signatures do work - if the musicians are wise to the rhythmic grouping by measure....if you make all of those one beat/bar downbeats with the same emphasis, then the basic 3, or 4 rhythm is not going to emerge correctly. part of the problem is that scherzi, waltzes, etc are set to be taken in "1 beat per bar"....but, as shown, that does not adequately present the correct underlying rhythm pattern, which may be in groups of 3, 4, or whatever bars



> The problem lies with our note values, indicated by the bottom number in the time signature: always 2, 4, 8, etc., and notated in 12/8 as dotted eighths. You can't put a dotted eighth in a time signature


Actually, I've seen some 20th century music, French, I think, where the composer did exactly that - time signature = 2 or 3/dotted 1/4 note - the note figure was actually in the time signature. it certainly makes it clear what's supposed to happen.


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