# What is more relevant for you in Opera?



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

When Opera is born, at the end of the 16th century, the composers believed that music must serve the text, closely following it, enhancing the words and the content. For Monterverdi, music should be the servant of the speech.

However, the evolution of the genre was mainly in the direction of giving much more importance to the music, than to the words.

Since then, we have had many different views, but what is yours?.


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## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

While it depends on the particular opera- for example throughout most Wagner operas, I find the text very important (by design)- generally, I am quite aural, and it is the music and its sound that is paramount to me.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

As much as I'm very sensitive to a good libretto and theatrical aspects like dramatic impact, pace, etc., as well as to the rich poetry of certain (rare) libretti, music is still what is most important to me. After all, as much as opera encompasses several art forms in one, it is still primarily a musical genre, not literature. And when I say music I include the musicality of the vocal line, this being one of the reasons why I dislike opera in translation in most cases.

While recognizing that both are important, I wouldn't be able to vote *same* importance for both, since for me music is still the most important aspect of opera.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

My ideal is music that doesn't give up on being beautiful for purpose of being expressive and at the same time doesn't give up on being expressive for being only beautiful. I'm often annoyed when I realise that you could exchange music between arias of one opera, one where character makes declaration of love and the other where he/she sings about going to die or something like that and noone would say that there is something wrong. 

There is no composer who never crossed the line in one of those directions.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I can listen to opera on CD without caring what the words mean. But, when I'm watching a DVD, I absolutely have to have good subtitles. The visual medium turns a musical experience into a play for me, I guess. I suppose that's also why I have to have watchable stars when I'm watching. The music becomes secondary.

I have no idea how I would react to a live performance, since I've never seen one.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

It depends on the opera so I voted same for both


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I suppose I'd enjoy listening to the text of the telephone directory set to music if the composer were Beethoven, Mozart, or Verdi (and the singer were Jonas Kaufmann!).  But my favorite operas are generally those that pair beautiful music with an emotionally powerful text -- so I chose the third option.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Opera is a hybrid of music and drama. Sure, you can focus on just the music, but why would you want to? There are plenty of other instrumental and vocal forms for that. Why not make the most of opera's potential and have an exciting drama expressed through powerful music? All my favorite operas manage that feat, in one way or another.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

With a nod to our Sibling Forum, you can find my generalized 
perspective on words & music in this thread!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> With a nod to our Sibling Forum, you can find my generalized
> perspective on words & music in this thread . . .
> 
> "How about this for a general rule-of-thumb:
> ...


Except that . . .

In which case are you more likely to pay attention to (let alone be able to make out) the lyrics: Schubert's _Winterreise_ or a death metal growl?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*My post DID admit exceptions- I quote myself...*


Chi_townPhilly said:


> Disclaimer- I said that my conjectural rule was a 'rule-of-thumb,' and don't discount that occasional exceptions to the general run can be found. I'm still inclined to believe that the overarching hypothesis can withstand scrutiny, generally speaking.


*Even so, I'd be inclined to think that there's more daylight between Schubert's music and Schubert's lyrics than there is between death metal music and death metal lyrics (which is to say [depending upon whether you are or aren't a fan], you'll find them equally rewarding, or equally abysmal).*


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> My post DID admit exceptions- I quote myself...


True. I meant my example to be indicative of what might be a pretty long list of exceptions. I suppose it's a question of how many are required before they go from proving the rule to disproving it.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I suppose others have made the point... but (to me) it was Bryan Magee who most memorably stated that there are lots of examples of repertory operas that survive on the strength of their music and _in spite of_ their text-- but no examples of operas that endure due to their fantastic libretti but indifferent (or worse) music.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

There are operas with absurd plots - _Il Trovatore_ and _La Forza del Destino_ come to mind - which are redeemed by their glorious music. When Manrico sings "Di quella pira" I don't sit back and ridicule the opera because the hero is singing an aria while his mother is going to be burned at the stake.

On the other hand there are the operas with glorious, poetic text and bad music. Let me think of one... why, give me a minute, I'm sure there is one...


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Richard Strauss, in _Capriccio_, use this same question as the basic for the plot. The protagonist, Countess Madeleine, is suited by Olivier, a poet, and Flamand, a composer, that engage on a long debate about the relative powers of music and words.

In the final of the opera it seems at first sight that the Countess is still undecided, as she sings of the inseparability of words and music. Then she consults her image in the mirror for a decision...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

waldvogel said:


> There are operas with absurd plots - _Il Trovatore_ and _La Forza del Destino_ come to mind - which are redeemed by their glorious music. When Manrico sings "Di quella pira" I don't sit back and ridicule the opera because the hero is singing an aria while his mother is going to be burned at the stake.


I don't mean to be provocative but Il Trovatore stunned be with both idiotic plot and the way that this ridiculous story is matched with terrible music which masterfully highlights the most annoying aspects of the libretto.

I hardly managed to sit through whole thing when Corelli sung Manrico, without him I would give up in the middle. Di Quella Pirra is really just so-so aria which doesn't have anything special except that it's lifted because of numerous great singers performing it (I don't know why they wasted time for doing it).


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## Dster (Oct 3, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> There are operas with absurd plots - _Il Trovatore_ and _La Forza del Destino_ come to mind - which are redeemed by their glorious music. When Manrico sings "Di quella pira" I don't sit back and ridicule the opera because the hero is singing an aria while his mother is going to be burned at the stake.
> 
> On the other hand there are the operas with glorious, poetic text and bad music. Let me think of one... why, give me a minute, I'm sure there is one...


For absurd plot, my vote goes to Norma. She has two kids by Pollione while presiding as chief priestess and yet no one borders to ask where the children come from. That's bel canto for you. 
When someone complained about Joan SUtherlands diction, Richard Bonynge replied that one do not go to opera to listen to the words. For me music is the most important element.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Dster said:


> She has two kids by Pollione while presiding as chief priestess and yet no one borders to ask where the children come from. That's bel canto for you.


Indeed, words must bear little importance for you if you didn't read them carefully enough to learn that people have no idea about those children as they live in her secret house where her trusted servant watch over them.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> There are operas with absurd plots - _Il Trovatore_ and _La Forza del Destino_ come to mind - which are redeemed by their glorious music. When Manrico sings "Di quella pira" I don't sit back and ridicule the opera because the hero is singing an aria while his mother is going to be burned at the stake.


I realize that I will be in a distinct minority here, but I think that sometimes there is a knee-jerk reflex to dismiss opera librettos as absurd.

While I won't speak for _Il Trovatore_ as a whole, take "Di quella pira." Yes, the audience must accept a certain amount of artifice, but that is true of any art form (think about some of the equally questionable conventions in popular film genres). It may seem strange for the hero to stand and sing about how he is going to rush off and save his mother, but a character giving a passionate speech about his intentions is a pretty common dramatic device (it happens all the time in Shakespeare). It also doesn't seem unrealistic that a man who has just learned that his mother is about to be sent to a fiery death would vent his feelings with some intensity. At the same time, the moment is given some emotional tension, as Manrico must restrain his fury enough to gently extricate himself from his beloved. Some may think that he takes a good long while to do all this, but bear in mind that he must wait for his men to gather around him before charging off. With those logistics in mind, the attack is actually launched pretty expeditiously.

I don't mean to suggest that every moment in opera can be justified, but I do think that sometimes the blanket reputation for absurdity prevents us from really considering the dramatic situation.


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## Dster (Oct 3, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Indeed, words must bear little importance for you if you didn't read them carefully enough to learn that people have no idea about those children as they live in her secret house where her trusted servant watch over them.


I know all that, but babies don't arrive at this world at the drop of the hat. There are periods of pregnancy and all those inconvenineces. And she had two of them! Just how the hell did she get away with it? Of course all these things happened before the story started, but everytime I listen or watch Norma, I can't help thinking that Norma was a superwoman. :lol:


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

Dster said:


> I know all that, but babies don't arrive at this world at the drop of the hat. There are periods of pregnancy and all those inconvenineces. And she had two of them! Just how the hell did she get away with it? Of course all these things happened before the story started, but everytime I listen or watch Norma, I can't help thinking that Norma was a superwoman. :lol:


Even in this modern age, with women wearing far-from-concealing clothing, women are able to conceal their pregnancy and give birth without their family members noticing a thing. If you're wearing loose robes and have devoted servants to help you, much is possible.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I find I can't give a once-and-for-all answer, because I listen in different ways on different occasions:

1. My most frequent mode of listening is merely to the music, regardless of the words. That's not to say that I'm indifferent to the plot and the drama (though at times I can be), but a brief knowledge of what's happening is usually enough. On this basis, I voted for the first option.

2. If I'm _watching_ an opera, either live or on DVD, or following the libretto and engaging with the drama in detail, then the words _do_ matter - or rather, the details of _plot_ matter. The actual words themselves (usually translations anyway) don't count for anything much: that is, I don't approach the libretto as _poetry_.

Looking at it in another way: if no translations existed so I had no idea of what was being sung, I'd still listen to a lot of opera just for the music (though I wouldn't watch it, much). But if all the music were removed, leaving just a stage play, I'd have no interest in it at all.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

schigolch said:


> Since then, we have had many different views, but what is yours?.


Well of course it's the music. Who would have the patience to sit through a few hours of whatever quality libretto coupled with crap music? Most opera libretti were mediocre stuff - adaptations of other works, historical occasions mixed with fiction, "copy & paste" recycling etc. but there were many, many more examples of beautiful music carrying your senses through; so much so, that you probably didn't even notice. Opera composed from first principles - librettist and composer working together as one envisaging the whole and catering for specific singers / performers - are rare. And even when the composer was also the librettist, such as Wagner's pieces, I read opinions often praising the music much more often than the plot, which often seemed to be attacked for being too long-winded on its own.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Dster said:


> I know all that, but babies don't arrive at this world at the drop of the hat. There are periods of pregnancy and all those inconvenineces. And she had two of them! Just how the hell did she get away with it? Of course all these things happened before the story started, but everytime I listen or watch Norma, I can't help thinking that Norma was a superwoman. :lol:


Not only can women hide pregnancies in real life, as AnaMendoza points out, but the opera draws on a long-standing literary tradition as well. An example that comes to mind off the top of my head is John Webster's _The Duchess of Malfi_--perhaps the greatest English Renaissance tragedy *not* by Shakespeare--in which the widowed Duchess hides *three* illicit pregnancies and births from her watchful brothers.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Unless it's something I know by heart (like Tosca, Turandot, Trovatore, Ballo, Don Carlo) I prefer subtitles. Text is important too, except in the places where they repeat.

Also, watched Trovatore with English subs once and found it hilarious and creepy at the same time. EVERYONE in that opera needs therapy.


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