# Martin's not full proved theories...



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have sometimes ridiculous theories, not proved at all. I'm pretty sure you will contradict them.

Type of Voices for the main characters versus countries...

Italy and Germany (except le noces di Figaro for men and Rossini for women): Generally Tenor for men, soprano for women

Russian opera: Generally Bass for men, soprano for woman...
(except Katerina Izmailova)

Now you can say...No, Martin! You are so mistaken...and give me some examples of my mistakes.

You are very welcome to do so...

I'm used to making mistakes....LOL

Martin


:tiphat:


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

It's not really a mistake if you say "generally" because that allows for contradictions by default...


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Where do baritones and mezzos come from?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

In *Berg's *_Wozzeck_, the lead is a baritone and the main female character (Marie) is a mezzo-soprano. In *Schoenberg's* _Moses und Aron_, the lead role (Moses) has no voice colour in particular, he spends a lot of time doing speech-song (sprechtstimme), but the secondary role Aron (who obviously does more singing than the lead) is a tenor. I don't know about other modern operas, eg. by Tippett, Henze, Britten, etc. Let alone contemporary ones. But I think your generalisation, Martin, is probably truer for repertoire before (say) 1918, than what came after...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sid James said:


> In *Berg's *_Wozzeck_, the lead is a baritone and the main female character (Marie) is a mezzo-soprano. In *Schoenberg's* _Moses und Aron_, the lead role (Moses) has no voice colour in particular, he spends a lot of time doing speech-song (sprechtstimme), but the secondary role Aron (who obviously does more singing than the lead) is a tenor. I don't know about other modern operas, eg. by Tippet, Henze, Britten, etc. Let alone contemporary ones. But I think your generalisation, Martin, is probably truer for repertoire before (say) 1918, than what came after...


You're perfectly right and I have realized that after posting my "theory". But the XXth century brought us plenty of surprises...I was rather speaking about the XVIII th and IXXth centuries...were things were more...stable if you want. Berg and Schönberg were ones in a kind as you may know...I was rather thinking of Wagner and Verdi....They don't have anything in common but this.
As you maybe know...we have two big operas trends: operas by numbers or themes or scenes: Italian and Russian operas with a lot of different melodies...by scenes and German development (i.e. Wagner, Schreker...) Richard Strauss would be a mixt of both (XXth century) as well as Alban Berg...I cannot speak about Schönberg operas...I consider them not so important (I'm sure I am wrong) Moises and Aaron seems to be a mixt between oratorio and opera..."from today until tomorrow or whatever the real title is is a short opera cute but nothing else. Erwartung is just weird to me...But it is more a monologue as the human voice (Poulenc)...

To be followed by you

Sincerely

Martin


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

rgz said:


> Where do baritones and mezzos come from?


How about the propensity for French opera to rely on mezzos as the leading character (think of _Carmen_, _Les Troyens_, _Béatrice et Bénédict_, _La Damnation de Faust_, _Werther_, _Don Quichotte_, _La Favorite_, _Mignon_, _Samson et Dalila_ . . .)


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> How about the propensity for French opera to rely on mezzos as the leading character (think of _Carmen_, _Les Troyens_, _Béatrice et Bénédict_, _La Damnation de Faust_, _Werther_, _Don Quichotte_, _La Favorite_, _Mignon_, _Samson et Dalila_ . . .)


You are very probably right...La Favorite...French????? Just the title..it is Donizetti's French period as La fille du régiment...It is Italian nevertheless...French operas are exceptions, I guess...I am not a fan of French opera. But the French mezzos are also special...Maria Callas sung Carmen when she was older...To be followed. I don't like Berlioz, Massenet has some nice moments (Wether is too long and the story is really stupid). Samson is pretty good...even if I'm not a fan of Saint-saens.

Best

Martin


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Wether is too long and the story is really stupid.


You'd probably have to take that up with Goethe.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> You'd probably have to take that up with Goethe.


You're right. I read the book many years ago...I could finish it...but Faust, I fell so asleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep....Good when you have insomnia!

Martin


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