# Exploring HIP Mozart



## Elgarian

OK. Cards on table. For decades, most of Mozart has been a closed book to me. This I suppose is an inevitable result of not having a musically literate background, so I had nothing to fall back on when I found the music didn't move me in any way, and mostly I gave up and stuck with the composers I loved - mostly Romantics.

But then I discovered, quite out of the blue, that Handel rocks, particularly when performed on period instruments, with period consciousness. And most of the baroque composers I was indifferent to were transformed also - and in almost every case it was the period performances that drew the veil from my eyes (or the plugs from my ears). Beethoven came next, when I heard Jos Van Immerseel's box set of the symphonies. And then came Mozart. Historically informed performance has transformed my enjoyment of baroque and classical music from indifference to near-obsession.

In Mozart's case it was the operas that did it. The wonderful recordings by Rene Jacobs were exactly what I needed, and while I know Jacobs's highly ornamental approach to continuo/recitatives troubles some people, it doesn't trouble me - so for the present I need look no further than these, which I'm still exploring:






































This is an ongoing voyage, so there's nothing definitive about these recommendations, but I simply have to report on this superb box of Mozart's violin sonatas, performed on period instruments (yes, fortepiano, not a modern piano):










These were like nothing I'd heard before by Mozart. The recording is excellent - like having the performers in the room - and the music is so inventively generous that I find I can't help smiling at the sheer benevolence of Mozart himself; I can almost hear him laughing with delight at his own exuberant dialogue - notes passing back and forth between violin and fortepiano like a brilliant conversation; only half understood, perhaps, but wonderful to hear for the sake of its brilliance.

The set consists of 5 CDs in a box, and jpc are selling these boxes, at the time of writing, for a mere *9.99 euros*, here. I'll say that again: 9.99 euros, for 5 CDs of the most sublime, HIP Mozart. You simply can't afford not to get one.

There's more to tell, but here's a start, and I hope we can build up a really useful compendium of recommendations for period Mozart performances.


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## Elgarian

Just adding another major discovery to the list:










This is a gem. I mentioned in my previous post that Immerseel's Beethoven blew my Beethovenistic preconceptions out of the water - and this CD could do much the same for Mozart. For me the highlight is the Flute & Harp concerto. From the very first sound of the violins, there's an almost tangible solidity to the recording and its acoustic, with a convincing feeling of the removal of the screen of two centuries of Romantic orchestral traditions. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but this brings me close enough to Mozart to make me feel almost able to shake his hand. The sheer raw beauty of the sound is marvellous, and the famous wonderful tune that keeps spilling from from the second movement seems to bubble up and tumble out repeatedly, without effort, as if it were its perpetual joy to keep reminding us how lovely it is.

The chap who reviewed this for _Gramophone_ said 'if you buy only one Mozart record, make it this one'; and while that's maybe a bit over the top, it's perfectly possible to believe it while you're listening to it.


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## danae

Yessss, definately the piano concertos. They are... to die for!


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## jhar26

Mozart was one of the first composers who's music I fell in love with. I have lots of Mozart in my cd collection - more than of any other composer, and by a huge margin at that. If I count discs that are part of box sets seperately I have about 300 of them plus 14 operas on DVD. The vast majority of them are not HIP however, and although period instruments begin to interest me more and more I'm not sure how much more I should add to the pile. I think that my Haydn collection has a better balance so to speak since it's about 50% modern instruments and 50% HIP.


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## Elgarian

danae said:


> Yessss, definately the piano concertos. They are... to die for!


But which versions? That's the big question.

I've never been much of a fan of the modern piano. There's something about the way the notes clink at the top end and grind at the bottom end that makes me feel uncomfortable, but, but, but - I've now discovered the _fortepiano_, and life is now beautiful. Listening to Mozart played on fortepiano is a completely different experience. This is what he intended us to hear, and it sounds marvellous to these ears.

So the question is - which _HIP_ performances of the piano concertos, with _forte_piano, are the ones to have? At the moment I have the set with Viviana Sofronitzki playing fortepiano:










Now, it's early days yet, but this has not so far captivated me, and I'm wondering if I should have bought Immerseel's box instead:










I'm currently trying to get hold of one so I can do some comparisons.


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> The vast majority of them are not HIP however


Presumably _some_ of them are HIP? - but it sounds as if you haven't been smitten in the way I have. For me, it's as if Mozart suddenly makes sense. It sounds more raw, more fresh, more _right_. By comparison, Mozart played with a big modern orchestra sounds glossy and smooth and over polished, to me. But I know that for many people the whole HIP thing really doesn't matter that much.


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Presumably _some_ of them are HIP? - but it sounds as if you haven't been smitten in the way I have. For me, it's as if Mozart suddenly makes sense. It sounds more raw, more fresh, more _right_. By comparison, Mozart played with a big modern orchestra sounds glossy and smooth and over polished, to me. But I know that for many people the whole HIP thing really doesn't matter that much.


Well, I like both. If I could do it over again I would include many more HIP recordings though. I'll buy at least some in the future, I'm sure.


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> But which versions? That's the big question.
> 
> I've never been much of a fan of the modern piano.
> 
> There's something about the way the notes clink at the top end and grind at the bottom end that makes me feel uncomfortable, but, but, but - I've now discovered the _fortepiano_, and life is now beautiful. Listening to Mozart played on fortepiano is a completely different experience. This is what he intended us to hear, and it sounds marvellous to these ears.


I have three sets of the concertos on the modern piano. Brendel, Uchida and Anda. I like the Geza Anda set the most.


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## danae

Which versions? I honestly don't know. I've heard a lot of performances and picking the best recordings of works is simply not my strong point. I focus so much on the work itself that I forget who's playing it. 

Concerning modern piano: I love its sound and to be honest, I never cared for period instruments. I immensely enjoy listening to Gould playing the WTC on piano instead of harpsichord. I love the Mozart sonatas on the piano and not the fortepiano. But that's just me...


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## scytheavatar

Check out Pinnock's symphony cycle now. One of the finest Mozart symphony cycles out there.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Member Elgarian,

I agree with your points. I am pleased to see that the HIP ensembles have opened up these works in a way they deserve, as far as I'm concerned. HIP are all I have in my recording collection where they do best; early music to pre-Romantic. Rene Jacobs, unlike most HIP conductors who tend to be keyboard players by training, is a singer (countertenor), and his recordings of Mozart operas are all magnificant. (You have already mentioend Jacobs' Mozart operas but I would also like to mention that Jacob's Handel operas and oratorios deserve attention too).

Regarding Mozart's piano concertos, the only complete version by HIP ensembles I have is by The English Barqoue Soloists/Gardiner (conductor)/Malcom Bilson (fortepianist). I also have all of the released recordings by The Academy of Ancient Music/Hogwood (conductor)/Robert Levin (fortepianist). Unfortunately, the Hogwood/Levin complete set was not fully recorded/released but their available recordings nonetheless give a significant number/majority of the 27 or so piano concertos Mozart wrote. These include a few early harpsichord concertos that were arrangements of works by Johann Christian Bach. (Hogwood/Levin has a recording of those early J. C. Bach arrangements whereas the Gardiner/Bilson set does not).

Regarding Mozart's symphonies, I have two complete versions. One by The Academy of Ancient Music, and the other by The English Concert/Pinnock. The AAM's version is a thorough, true complete recording of all 60 plus symphonies; yes, about 60. Mozart's earlier works, rediscovered works and works that Mozart himself regarded as symphonies numbered well over the "standard 41". The AAM brings them altogether, including alternative versions of some (for example, there are two versions of symphony no.40 in the recording). The English Concert's versions are a welcoming alternative, though less "complete" than the AAM's survey. I only acquired Pinnock's version last year, whereas I have the AAM's version for nearly 10 years now. Both are worth having. If you want just one, I would probably pick the AAM's for its breadth of coverage, and after listening to them all, you really get a good idea of what's Mozart's symphonies (and also a lot about their society) were all about, and how much Mozart was "operatic" even with these instrumental works.

Listening to Mozart's piano concertos by HIP ensembles with the fortepiano brings out the elegance and form of these Classical works, which I feel is not as well captured when played by a grand piano under heavy Romantic influence/modern style approach. But that's just me!


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## Artemis

Member HarpsichordConcerto

I feel drawn to say that I admire the way you take the trouble to present your obviously well-groomed knowledge about this subject. It's also very nice to see English properly written. But that's just me!

Regards

Member Artemis


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## Elgarian

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> The English Concert's versions are a welcoming alternative, though less "complete" than the AAM's survey. I only acquired Pinnock's version last year, whereas I have the AAM's version for nearly 10 years now. Both are worth having.


Pinnock's symphonies seem to produce polarised responses. I bought his box of symphonies a few years ago, hoping to find a way into Mozart through the period instrument approach, but I was very disappointed. Pinnock seems to present the symphonies rather like blueprints - intent perhaps on being 'correct' rather than expressing the essential vitality of the music (though that's just a personal impression, not a knowledgeable statement). So Pinnock's symphonies actually _delayed_ my 'discovery' of the potential of HIP performance, and the box tends to gather dust on my shelf these days. But I know they have their devotees; they just don't work for me.



> Listening to Mozart's piano concertos by HIP ensembles with the fortepiano brings out the elegance and form of these Classical works, which I feel is not as well captured when played by a grand piano under heavy Romantic influence/modern style approach. But that's just me!


Not just you, I'm happy to say. There are at least two of us.


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## kmisho

danae said:


> Which versions? I honestly don't know. I've heard a lot of performances and picking the best recordings of works is simply not my strong point. I focus so much on the work itself that I forget who's playing it.
> 
> Concerning modern piano: I love its sound and to be honest, I never cared for period instruments. I immensely enjoy listening to Gould playing the WTC on piano instead of harpsichord. I love the Mozart sonatas on the piano and not the fortepiano. But that's just me...


It's funny this subject came up because I was just thinking about it recently. I'm with you on the period instruments thing. I don't like it.

I'm all for factoring in period style. But here again I don't like slavish devotion to period style.


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## Elgarian

kmisho said:


> I'm all for factoring in period style. But here again I don't like slavish devotion to period style.


Indeed, but 'slavish devotion to period style' is not even remotely what I've been talking about here (see my comments about Pinnock above, for example). I'm hoping this thread will _not_ turn into a 'period v modern' debate that goes nowhere. What I'm hoping for is that this will be a useful place for sorting out precisely what are the HIP alternatives available to us for Mozart, and for comparing notes to discover what the best of those period recordings might be.


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## Artemis

There haven't been a lot HIP topics on this Forum so far. Elgarian is to be congratulated for putting his head above the parapet in this area, and for making what seem to be some perfectly respectable and sensible comments and suggestions in this Mozart area.

However, HIP is not a favourite subject of mine. The best I can muster is to say that I like some of it alongside traditional versions as an alternative, but only in rare cases do I prefer it to the more traditional approach. Unlike some negative comment about HIP I have spotted on this Forum lately, my position is rather more receptive in that I'm more at ease with some aspects period performance and modern instruments than I am with rigid adherence to the full HIP model. Use of the fortepiano, for example, even the best Viennese copies or originals, are not generally my scene. I do like some of it but this is the exception. Nor do I buy rigid compliance with composers' tempo markings (this applies more to Beethoven than Mozart).

I have tons of Mozart collected over the years and much of it is based on the basis of artists/ensembles/orchestras I know that I like. To give one example, I like Neville Marriner and the Academy of St Martin in the Fields. I also like Murray Perahia playing Mozart, as well as Ashkenazy, and neither is into HIP or performs on fortepiano. My collection has been supplemented by recommendations I have spotted from various professional sources (e.g. _Gramophone_) or from radio programmes, e.g. the BBC's _CD Review/Building a Library_. The latter is an excellent source of advice on best buys. All in all there is nothing I'm missing in the way of my coverage of Mozart material, and in fact I'm virtually swimming in it. I'm therefore not likely to rush out and buy any more.

Out of curiosity I've had a look at one or two other Forums that reckon they specialise in this HIP topic, and all I can say is that their almost-slavish devotion to HIP makes me run for the hills. It was rather like running into a bunch of druids or devil-worshippers with their sacred rituals and all. It seems that if one dares mention someone like Klemperer of Bohm, you either get ignored and occasionally there is a risk of being virtually sneered at. Well, the hell with all that nonsense. The funny thing is that whole gang of them are a mere bunch of faceless amateurs who probably couldn't string a few notes together to save their lives. Some seem to be little more school-kids who buy their CDs out of weekly pocket money, and are probably out for a bit of a laugh to see how far they can get conning the rest of us.

I like discussing classical music but, as I have commented before, I rarely take any notice of recommendations for particular versions of works unless they are second-hand reports from more authoritative sources. If I were a newbie I would do so, but Forums like this didn't exist when I started out collecting CDs some 12-15 years ago as a teenager. The truth is that at times I don't even trust my own assessment of what's best, as I do not pretend to understand all the nuances and subtleties of some music. I'm therefore quite happy to accept the opinion of people whom I regard as better informed than me, and such people are usually professional reviewers, as referred to above.


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## Elgarian

Artemis said:


> Out of curiosity I've had a look at one or two other Forums that reckon they specialise in this HIP topic, and all I can say is that their almost-slavish devotion to HIP makes me run for the hills. It was rather like running into a bunch of druids or devil-worshippers with their sacred rituals and all. It seems that if one dares mention someone like Klemperer of Bohm, you either get ignored and occasionally there is a risk of being virtually sneered at. Well, the hell with all that nonsense.


I agree with you completely. Heck, I don't even begin to know enough to enter into the types of detailed discussions that you mention; they mean almost nothing to me. All I know is that when I hear recordings that make me jump up with delight and shout '_What _is _that_? I want _more_!', then I know I've struck gold. And these HIP Mozart recordings I'm mentioning here are achieving that for me, time and time again. This thread maybe needed a subsidiary name: 'I want _more_, and I want it _now._' It was born of sheer desire, not of nitpickiness.


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## Artemis

Elgarian said:


> I agree with you completely. Heck, I don't even begin to know enough to enter into the types of detailed discussions that you mention; they mean almost nothing to me. All I know is that when I hear recordings that make me jump up with delight and shout '_What _is _that_? I want _more_!', then I know I've struck gold. And these HIP Mozart recordings I'm mentioning here are achieving that for me, time and time again. This thread maybe needed a subsidiary name: 'I want _more_, and I want it _now._' It was born of sheer desire, not of nitpickiness.


I admire your new-found enthusiasm for Mozart and Handel. I look forward to the day when you say that Schubert is next on your agenda.


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## Elgarian

Artemis said:


> I admire your new-found enthusiasm for Mozart and Handel. I look forward to the day when you say that Schubert is next on your agenda.


Well, it's certainly not impossible, the way things are going. There is, though, the bulky figure of Haydn looming on the horizon. Not sure what to do about that ....


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Well, it's certainly not impossible, the way things are going. There is, though, the bulky figure of Haydn looming on the horizon. Not sure what to do about that ....


If you like string quartets you can start with the recordings from Quatuor Mosaiques on period instruments. They are all excellent.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-String-Quartets-Seven-Words/dp/B001F0JZZU/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-String-Quartets-Vol-Op/dp/B001F0K004/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b

....and then there is this amazing, very cheap 14 cd box set of the piano sonatas - also on period instruments.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Compl...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1262774928&sr=1-1


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> If you like string quartets you can start with the recordings from Quatuor Mosaiques on period instruments. They are all excellent.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-String-Quartets-Seven-Words/dp/B001F0JZZU/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-String-Quartets-Vol-Op/dp/B001F0K004/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b
> 
> ....and then there is this amazing, very cheap 14 cd box set of the piano sonatas - also on period instruments.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Compl...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1262774928&sr=1-1


Blimey, we're not safe anywhere, are we? Dash it all, Gaston - what I _really_ need is a bottomless pot of money and a way of stretching the day into twice the length. Can you point me towards anything that would help there?

I've just been listening to some samples from the big box of sonatas. After a few minutes I ordered one. How can you not, really, at this price? Thanks, _encore une fois_.


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Blimey, we're not safe anywhere, are we? Dash it all, Gaston - what I _really_ need is a bottomless pot of money and a way of stretching the day into twice the length. Can you point me towards anything that would help there?


I've been searching for the fountain of youth and a bottomless pot of money myself for my entire life, Alan. I haven't found either one so far.


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## Elgarian

Just been listening to samples of some of those SQs you recommended. The sheer _sound_ of it is as crisp and clear as ice. The 'presence' of those instruments is extraordinary. So I ordered volume 1. I have no money left, but I did it anyway.


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## jhar26

Elgarian said:


> Just been listening to samples of some of those SQs you recommended. The sheer _sound_ of it is as crisp and clear as ice. The 'presence' of those instruments is extraordinary. So I ordered volume 1.


I'm sure that you won't regret it, Alan.


> I have no money left, but I did it anyway.


I guess I better keep quiet about my recommendations for the Haydn symphonies for a little while longer then.


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## nefigah

jhar26 said:


> ....and then there is this amazing, very cheap 14 cd box set of the piano sonatas - also on period instruments.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Compl...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1262774928&sr=1-1


I would just like to note that when I went on (US) Amazon looking for this, the CD set was like $140 but the MP3 download option _was only *$9* for all of it_.


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## Sandy

I spent my childhood following the L.A. Philharmonic all over California including the Hollywood Bowl. My conductors were Bruno Walter, Mehta, Guilini who came and went year after year. We would travel all over the USA watching for our pianists of note to perform. I came late to recordings on disk. I drove the Bay Area Blind group to many concerts and recitals in the Los Angeles Area. Had to call a halt to one sightless lady whose dog adored Brahms' symhonies. The big black Lab would swoon and I had to take him out to the parking lot until we discovered this problem.

There is nothing better than listening to Mozart in person. When I moved north to San Luis Obispo I was able to hear/see Mozart and Brahms in live presentations of their requiems. It was the closest this old Atheist ever got to God. 

Sandy


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## Elgarian

Here's something I've been trying to get hold of at an affordable price for some time now, and have finally succeeded:










(This 2 CD set seems to have been replaced, more recently, by a cheaper single CD containing just 2 of the symphonies - which is readily available, but I wanted to get all three if I could.)

Having been blown away by Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies, I sat back expecting some similar kind of explosive response to his versions of the late Mozart symphonies... and of course didn't get it. This _isn't_ 'Mozart on a motor bike', and if I'm going to be sensible, I suppose that's fair enough. I must say that these are very enjoyable performances, and I like the 'feel' of the smaller chamber-style period band with its fresh, bright approach, but I don't think they're going to transform my perception of the late symphonies (in the way that Sofronitzki has transformed my perception of the piano concertos), even though I suspect they may prove to be my performances of choice in the long run. I'll wait and see what happens as my false expectations fade, and as I get to know them better.


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## Sorin Eushayson

Elgarian said:


> Here's something I've been trying to get hold of at an affordable price for some time now, and have finally succeeded:
> 
> (This 2 CD set seems to have been replaced, more recently, by a cheaper single CD containing just 2 of the symphonies - which is readily available, but I wanted to get all three if I could.)
> 
> Having been blown away by Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies, I sat back expecting some similar kind of explosive response to his versions of the late Mozart symphonies... and of course didn't get it. This _isn't_ 'Mozart on a motor bike', and if I'm going to be sensible, I suppose that's fair enough. I must say that these are very enjoyable performances, and I like the 'feel' of the smaller chamber-style period band with its fresh, bright approach, but I don't think they're going to transform my perception of the late symphonies (in the way that Sofronitzki has transformed my perception of the piano concertos), even though I suspect they may prove to be my performances of choice in the long run. I'll wait and see what happens as my false expectations fade, and as I get to know them better.


I got that one not too long ago. Mostly it is, as you said, pretty standard with regards to Mozart's late symphonies, though Immerseel does have his moments. Note the fast tempo and crisp horn work in first movement of the 40th:






Immerseel's is the first recording where I've actually been satisfied by the performance of the winds, not to mention the sharp attacks from the strings. His work with the first and second movements of the 41st is pretty good too, though he's pretty conventional with the rest of it; for the fiery final movement try...






Unfortunately, my experience with Mozart's last three has been very "hit and miss." I've yet to hear a performance that nailed every movement.


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## nefigah

Elgarian said:


> Here's something I've been trying to get hold of at an affordable price for some time now, and have finally succeeded:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (This 2 CD set seems to have been replaced, more recently, by a cheaper single CD containing just 2 of the symphonies - which is readily available, but I wanted to get all three if I could.)
> 
> Having been blown away by Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies, I sat back expecting some similar kind of explosive response to his versions of the late Mozart symphonies... and of course didn't get it. This _isn't_ 'Mozart on a motor bike', and if I'm going to be sensible, I suppose that's fair enough. I must say that these are very enjoyable performances, and I like the 'feel' of the smaller chamber-style period band with its fresh, bright approach, but I don't think they're going to transform my perception of the late symphonies (in the way that Sofronitzki has transformed my perception of the piano concertos), even though I suspect they may prove to be my performances of choice in the long run. I'll wait and see what happens as my false expectations fade, and as I get to know them better.


Earlier in this thread you said the Sofronitski hadn't captivated you yet... I gather that's changed?


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## Elgarian

nefigah said:


> Earlier in this thread you said the Sofronitski hadn't captivated you yet... I gather that's changed?


Oh gosh, yes! I thought I'd said something about that, but clearly I haven't. Right, here's the story:

It so happened that I had the chance to buy two cheap box sets of 'traditional' (ie modern instruments) Mozart PCs: Annerose Schmidt/Kurt Masur (which jpc were virtually giving away at 14.99 euros, and still are), and Brendel/Marriner. So I started listening to each concerto in triplicate - Sofronitzki, Schmidt, and Brendel.

Brendel fell by the wayside very quickly. His silky smooth legato is very beguiling, but it seemed to gloss over so many shifting nuances that I could hear in the other two; and Marriner's orchestral work sounded ... flabby? Vague? It seemed to paint a romatic haze over everything. So the Brendel set was probably a waste of money, except that it taught me what I was NOT looking for.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Schmidt/Masur. Modern instruments or not, Masur's conducting is very incisive and decisive; and although Schmidt's playing is a good deal less smooth and glossy than Brendel's, she injects a life into the music, and finds nuances of feeling and sudden mood change that neither Sofronitzki, nor Brendel, seem to find. The first few minutes of the final movement of the 25th provide a fine example: just after the solo piano starts (about a minute in), there's a break in mood for about 10 seconds, which Schmidt plays as a moment of exquisite sadness, or perhaps regret, before continuing with the revelry that follows - a really typically Mozartian moment. Sofronitzki uses that little space almost as a breather, I feel, whereas Brendel just glides over it altogether.

However, while gradually conceding that Schmidt was doing a lot of things that I liked, I was steadily being won over by what I suppose is the integration between fortepiano and orchestra in the Sofronitzki set. The orchestral playing is crisp, bright, lively and responsive, and the dialogue flashes between fortepiano and orchestra like quicksilver. And what I'm finding is that my experiment is grinding to a halt, because ... well, I found I was automatically wanting to reach for the Sofronitzki, and only grudgingly playing the Schmidt out of duty. In fact, now I've given in completely, and am just slowly picking my way through the PCs using Sofronitzki alone.

I think, after this, that I may find Immerseel's set (when I eventually manage to get one) a bit too .. polite?


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## Sorin Eushayson

Elgarian said:


> I think, after this, that I may find Immerseel's set (when I eventually manage to get one) a bit too .. polite?


I think you will, which is why I recommend the Gardiner/Bilson set or the Concerto Koln's few efforts with them.


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## Elgarian

Here's a tip for which I can claim no credit, as all I'm doing is passing on info courtesy of Sorin (all thanks be to him). But... Nefigah, if you're still out there somewhere: remember our conversations about Beethoven on a motor bike, and the wondering whether or not Mozart on a motor bike might be appropriate and/or fun? Well, try Minkowski's Jupiter symphony for size. Here's a sample of the 4th movement, made available by Sorin on Youtube:

Minkowski's Jupiter symphony 4th mov

Ordering the CD was my first act after hearing this sample.


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## nefigah

Wow, very intense yet crisp. Definitely going on my wishlist. Thank you for passing the tip along!


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## Guest

Of course, if you liked the Immerseel/Anima Eterna Beethoven symphony cycle, you can also turn to them for Mozart's 40th and 41st symphonies:









I have this album and greatly enjoy it.

I know the Jacobs recordings of Mozart operas have gotten rave reviews here, and I have to say that I am incredibly impressed with the ones I have thus far heard (Idomeneo, La Nozze di Figaro). Might I also suggest, though (and forgive me if these have already been mentioned), William Christie's recordings of Mozart operas on the Erato label? I have "Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail" as well as "The Magic Flute," and these are wonderful recordings, whether or not you specifically want HIP.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I must agree with Elgar's review of the Rene Jacob's recordings of Mozart's operas. Last month I was quite in the Mozart mood and purchased a good many works... including these three:




























The recordings... to say nothing of the packaging... are magnificent! There is an incredible freshness and a muscularity that is truly eye-opening. I will surely be getting the other operas by Jacobs while I eagerly await the _Magic Flute_. Having said this... I am still not willing to give up my Kemperer _Magic Flute_, Bohm _Don Giovanni_, or Giulini _Marriage of Figaro_.


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## Guest

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I must agree with Elgar's review of the Rene Jacob's recordings of Mozart's operas. Last month I was quite in the Mozart mood and purchased a good many works... including these three:
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> The recordings... to say nothing of the packaging... are magnificent! There is an incredible freshness and a muscularity that is truly eye-opening. I will surely be getting the other operas by Jacobs while I eagerly await the _Magic Flute_. Having said this... I am still not willing to give up my Kemperer _Magic Flute_, Bohm _Don Giovanni_, or Giulini _Marriage of Figaro_.


I couldn't agree with you more. Especially with Klemperer. I really want to pick up Jacobs' recordings of Don Giovanni and Cosi fan Tutte.

Might I suggest checking out William Christie's recordings on Erato? You may enjoy them as well. His operas are very clean and beautiful. I'm working my way through the Magic Flute by him, and thoroughly enjoying it. I haven't hit the Queen of the Night Arias yet, which will be the touchstone by which I ultimately judge it (Klemperer's recording truly shines in these parts).


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## Elgarian

DrMike said:


> Of course, if you liked the Immerseel/Anima Eterna Beethoven symphony cycle, you can also turn to them for Mozart's 40th and 41st symphonies:


Yes indeed - the most necessary port of call. We commented on these back in #27 and #28 of this thread (referring to the earlier 2CD issue of the final two symphonies, together with other works - so the cover imagery is different). And they are fine - but didn't generate that revolutionary transformation that I'd hoped for. I don't hear that fire that seems to blaze through the Minkowski final movement of the 41st. Of course one might argue that something less fiery might be more 'authentic' - I wouldn't know about that.


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## Elgarian

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I am still not willing to give up my Kemperer _Magic Flute_ ...


I don't blame you. Klemperor's _Magic Flute_ (together with the equally magical Lucia Popp) provided me with a semi-breakthrough into Mozart opera, and its non-HIPness seemed of little importance.

I have half a memory of reading that Jacobs is recording _Magic Flute_ sometime this year. Good news for us, I think, if so!


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## Elgarian

Back in #1 of this thread I referred to a box set of HIP Mozart violin sonatas by Kuijken and Devos, but the image I posted back then has disappeared, so I'll post it here again now:










I'm wondering about trying some of the Podger/Cooper series of recordings of Mozart's violin sonatas - does anyone have first hand experience of them?


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## Guest

Elgarian said:


> I don't blame you. Klemperor's _Magic Flute_ (together with the equally magical Lucia Popp) provided me with a semi-breakthrough into Mozart opera, and its non-HIPness seemed of little importance.
> 
> I have half a memory of reading that Jacobs is recording _Magic Flute_ sometime this year. Good news for us, I think, if so!


I'm making my way through Christie's recording on Erato - generally very nice, but some of the tempi just don't seem right. The initial opening scene with the snake is taken briskly (more so than Klemperer), but it seems to fit, given the urgency of the scene. But then the entrance of Papageno felt a little dragging, not nearly as playful as with Klemperer. Natalie Dessay's Queen of the Night seems to have the range, but I think I was spoiled with Lucia Popp - while both hit the notes, Popp just seems to sing her parts more effortlessly. I just finished her "Die Hoelle Rache . . ." aria, and the amazing part, where the Queen's voice, to me, takes on almost the voice of a flute, just did not flow from Dessay as fluidly as with Popp.

The advantage this recording has is that it is the complete opera, whereas Klemperer leaves out the spoken parts that give the full story. Still, when I stop trying to compare it to Klemperer, it is a very nice performance, thus far. One thing that this recording has over Klemperer is that, despite the less convincing Papageno, it has a lighter, more fun feel, whereas Klemperer imparts a more majestic feel - perhaps the lighter feel is the better approach for an opera centered on images of Egyptian gods and a magic flute.


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## Elgarian

DrMike said:


> Still, when I stop trying to compare it to Klemperer, it is a very nice performance, thus far. One thing that this recording has over Klemperer is that, despite the less convincing Papageno, it has a lighter, more fun feel, whereas Klemperer imparts a more majestic feel


Thanks for this - that's an interesting point, and although I haven't heard his Magic Flute, on the whole what you're describing is what I tend to expect from Christie - a lightness, an airiness (which in religious works translates into a kind of otherworldliness), and a general feeling of not taking things too seriously except when we really have to. From what you say, it sounds as though I'd enjoy Christie's Magic Flute.

Lucia Popp has made the Queen of Night so convincingly her own that almost everyone else is up against it, and it's almost impossible to avoid comparisons.


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## science

I just want to bump this thread because to help me shop I'd googled HIP Mozart and this came up first. And lots of posts here were very helpful and informative.

(Even if I did once get punished for complimenting Elgarian by a mod who interpreted it as an insult [or something]... the bitterness over which I will carry to my very grave!)


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## Guest

There are more to add to this list.

For one, at least two more operas have been added by Jacobs - The Magic Flute and La finta giardiniera
Continuing with Jacobs, I have to say that he has two wonderful albums on Harmonia Mundi of Mozart's final symphonies - one album pairs the 39th and 40th, and the other pairs the 38th and the 41st.

For HIP recordings of Mozart's complete keyboard sonatas, Ronald Brautigam has recorded them on a fortepiano on the BIS label, and they are exceptional.

If you would like to add a HIP recording of the Requiem, I have two recommendations. The first (and probably my favorite) is by Bruno Weill and Tafelmusik on the Sony Label. The other is Jordi Savall re-released on his Alia Vox label.

For the 5 violin concertos, as well as the wonderful Sonfinia concertante, go with Giuliano Carmignola accompanied by Claudio Abbado and the Orchestra Mozart on Archiv. Do not bother with the symphonies recorded on a separate album by Abbado with the Orchestra Mozart - they are truly underwhelming. But somehow they really do a wonderful job with these concertos, with the superb Carmignola performing the solo work - and accompanied by Danusha Waskiewicz on the Sinfonia concertante.

Of course, for the violin concertos, you can also catch the final 3 by the master, Andrew Manze, accompanied by the English Concert. And then don't forget their fine recording of Eine kleine Nachtmusik.

That is all I can think of for now.


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## Llyranor

I'll just add that this thread is what prompted me to pick up Sofronitzky's fortepiano concerti, and I absolutely love the set. They've gotten me into Mozart's piano concerti way more than I ever was before. Exquisite sound!


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## Bas

These Mozart Discs with sonatas, preludes, fugues and fantazias on forte-piano by Kristian Bezuidenhout are fantastic (I imagine Mozart himself would be happy with this recordings)


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## Itullian

Elgarian said:


> Here's a tip for which I can claim no credit, as all I'm doing is passing on info courtesy of Sorin (all thanks be to him). But... Nefigah, if you're still out there somewhere: remember our conversations about Beethoven on a motor bike, and the wondering whether or not Mozart on a motor bike might be appropriate and/or fun? Well, try Minkowski's Jupiter symphony for size. Here's a sample of the 4th movement, made available by Sorin on Youtube:
> 
> Minkowski's Jupiter symphony 4th mov
> 
> Ordering the CD was my first act after hearing this sample.


YUKKKKKK
Mozart as munchkin music.


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## Vaneyes

Two HIPs I enjoy, though generally, I prefer modern instrumentation for WAM. :tiphat:

View attachment 27031
View attachment 27032


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## StlukesguildOhio

Personally I love Minkowski's Mozart. It shakes the dust off these symphonies. Of course some still want their Mozart swathed in the perfume of Post-Romantic treacle.


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## Evoken

Very helpful thread


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## Vaneyes

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Personally I love Minkowski's Mozart. It shakes the dust off these symphonies. Of course some still want their Mozart swathed in the perfume of Post-Romantic treacle.


Somewhere between is nice.


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## Celloman

Has anyone mentioned Hogwood's recordings? What do you think of them?


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## Itullian

Celloman said:


> Has anyone mentioned Hogwood's recordings? What do you think of them?
> 
> View attachment 27125


I think they're good for HIP. I had the set.
Still anemic sounding to me though. Always had to add bass. The tempi are bad though.
I think Pinnock's and the ones Gardiner did on Philips are the best HIP.


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## Vaneyes

Celloman said:


> Has anyone mentioned Hogwood's recordings? What do you think of them?
> 
> View attachment 27125


I found them more Baroque than Classical. Playing is restrained, unlike the aforementioned Clarinet and Oboe Concerti with the same forces.

For the symphonies, Pinnock is a very good alternate suggestion. :tiphat:


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## Guest

I have heard many of Hogwood's Mozart recordings. They are good, but I think HIP performances have come a long way since then, and there are many newer choices that leave me feeling more fulfilled than Hogwood. That isn't to say that his are unimportant, but I just find that I prefer others. Pinnock is good. For the late symphonies, though, I really enjoy my recordings by Rene Jacobs - symphonies 38-41.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

Sonically as well as performance wise, I find Pinnock's symphony set to be my favorite. Immerseel's piano concertos have been my favorite set of those pieces. I hope he eventually does a set of Mozart's piano sonatas as well as Beethoven's. As far as I know he's only done a few of them. 

Pinnock's set has the fire that's missing from a lot of HIP performances. 

I do love HIP recordings, but I also like them to have some oomph to them. I never could really get into Gardiner's recordings, because (to me at least) he sounds like he's rushed. Though he had a DVD of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis that was quite good. 

Right now, I'm at a point were sound quality is becoming a major priority. Immerseel's recordings feel like your in the middle of the orchestra, which reminds me of Telarc recordings.


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