# Bach Violin Concertos



## peteAllen

I was brought up on the fine Oistrakh recording, but am considering buying the more recent Julia Fischer recording. Any verdicts / recommended alternatives out there?


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## Vesteralen

Be warned that Fischer and Hilary Hahn both take the Bach concerti a bit faster than the norm (Hahn more so). If you like these works to breathe a little (and I'm assuming you do since you liked Oistrakh), you might want to sample some tracks on Amazon or I-Tunes before you buy. Unfortunately, that's almost as far as I can take you on modern versions. The only other modern version I've heard is the one on Naxos (forget who the solist is on this one - but the tempos are much more like Oistrakh's).


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## itywltmt

I haven't heard this one. In my collection, I have the Accardo set, budget priced on Eloquence. Not too shabby of you ask me...


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## Llyranor

What I can say is that I really really enjoy the Julia Fischer one, and would definitely recommend it.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Hillary Hahn's recording is also well-received, as is Fischer's... but I personally would go with Andrew Manze, the acknowledged master of Baroque violin. Rachel Podger's recent recording is also worth hearing... but then again, she can be heard as the second violinist with Manze on the double violin concerto.


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## Nix

If you want a recording filled with sass, fire, and razor sharp technique, then Hahn is the way to go.


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## peteAllen

Thanks Vesteralen, I did listen to the Fischer recording on amazon, and yes, it is very fast! Is it easy to get used to it? I used to play the double on the violin myself with a friend. I think Bach deserves a bit of space to languish the luxurious beauty of his music, otherwise it is too showy, and too much like Vivaldi.
Unfortunately, after buying Andrew Manze's Corelli sonatas, I have totally gone off him. His intonation is shockingly poor in that recording.


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## Vesteralen

peteAllen said:


> Thanks Vesteralen, I did listen to the Fischer recording on amazon, and yes, it is very fast! Is it easy to get used to it? I used to play the double on the violin myself with a friend. I think Bach deserves a bit of space to languish the luxurious beauty of his music, otherwise it is too showy, and too much like Vivaldi.
> Unfortunately, after buying Andrew Manze's Corelli sonatas, I have totally gone off him. His intonation is shockingly poor in that recording.


I've always admired Fischer's playing, and there is no question you can begin to get used to the faster pacing here. I was helped by getting familiar with Hahn's version first, so that Fischer's seemed a just a shade relaxed in comparison.

That much being said, having cut my musical teeth on Laredo, Menuhin and Oistrakh in this music (especially the First), I personally prefer the old-fashioned, semi-romantic approach. Old habits die hard. 

(I have almost all of Hahn's and Fischer's CDs, though. In general, I love their work.)


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## haydnfan

I thought that the Fischer recording was boring. Don't get me wrong, she is a great violinist, I love her Tchaikovsky VC... but I don't think that Bach is her forte.


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## annie

it should depend on your modern/period instrument choice too but i checked the ones i own:

tognetti/rathbone/ACO
oistrakh/oistrakh/VSO
terakado/wakamatsu/BCJ
wallfisch/bury/OAE
podger/BB (w/o BWV 1043)
fischer/sitkovetsky/ASMF
huggett/S (w/o BWV 1043)
standage/wilcock/EC
heifetz/friedman/NSO (only 1043)
mutter/TS (w/o BWV 1043)
manze/podger/AAM
grumiaux/krebbers/LSR
hahn/batjer/LACO

my favorite is manze/podger. the second would be hahn for sure and terakado's would be the third. all of them are fast compared to oistrakh's version (i.e. BWV 1043 oistrakh's 17:19, hahn's 14:16, terakado 15:07, manze 14:24, tognetti 14:08, grumiaux 15:27, wallfisch 14:54). i wouldn't consider fischer's in my top 10. I should admit i find it very "daring" to compare hahn with fischer especially on Bach.


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## peteAllen

Wow, that really is a lot of versions!
So there are absolutely no intonation issues with the manze/podger recording then? Is it a smaller period instrument version?


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## annie

i don't think there are any intonation issues but may be some over-articulation for some listeners. i'm not sure what you mean by smaller PI version but his instrumentation consists of 2 cellos, 1 double bass, 2 violas, 4 1st violins, 4 2nd violins plus manze(&podger for 1043) and a harpsichord


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## peteAllen

Interestingly, I stumbled across Perahi's version for piano.










Quite delightful. But... it highlights how much more tone can come from a violin, way above and beyond that of a piano. I really hadn't noticed it as much before!


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## Guest

I like Fischer's recording, and would recommend it. But other than that, once again, StLuke beat me to it - get the Andrew Manze recording on Harmonia Mundi. Great recording! Damn you, StLuke - you are making my postings superfluous!!!!!!!


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## bumtz

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Hillary Hahn's recording is also well-received, as is Fischer's... but I personally would go with Andrew Manze, the acknowledged master of Baroque violin. Rachel Podger's recent recording is also worth hearing... but then again, she can be heard as the second violinist with Manze on the double violin concerto.


I second this recommendation.


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## Amfibius

haydnfan said:


> I thought that the Fischer recording was boring. Don't get me wrong, she is a great violinist, I love her Tchaikovsky VC... but I don't think that Bach is her forte.


Bach is definitely her forte! There is a DVD that comes with her recording of Bach's Violin Sonatas where she says in her neatly clipped German accent - "I practice Bach every day. Not a day goes where I am not without Bach. I do not know where I would be without him". Yep, that goes for me too.

I haven't heard the Oistrakh or the Hahn, so I can not tell you if the Fischer is better. But the Fischer is definitely worth getting.


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## annie

my tendency is i try to recognize the soloist. i believe that i can seperate heifetz, kremer, oistrakh, grumiaux, chung, perlman and many more including hahn and vengerov while listening their performance. but i've done that for fischer, jansen, bell, sitkovetsky and a few more with no success. for her bach quote, that's very common for the last decade, i've heard the same from more then 5 violinists. i guess that would only show that she loves music and bach very much  . about the bach recording, yes, she is in great harmony with the orchestra, yes, her technique is perfect for Bach but shouldn't those be the minimum requirements? i should say that i find her 2nd movements fascinating, but for outer movements of 1041 & 1042 i find her unremarkable....of course that's just me.


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## peteAllen

Whilst loitering in the local library  I came across Fischer's recording and borrowed it. Very nice is my first impression, but I was working at the time so need to listen more carefully next time.


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## 13hm13

Looking for a single CD album for Bach violin concertos.
The Hahn and Fischer albums come up at the top of Amazon search-results page.

On YouTube, someone posted Grumiaux (Philips), and the recording quality is very good.














There are many other "Bach VC" albums, incl. Janine Jansen, Nigel Kennedy, Freiburger Barockorchester [on period instruments], Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Viktoria Mullova , Anne Sophie Mutter, et. al.

What's a good Bach VC album to begin with?

How about this ...


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## 13hm13

*Double Concerto*

A question about the Double Concerto ...

Do you *need* _two_ virtuoso violin player?

The reason I ask is the following CD from my collection...









..._only_ Kremer is mentioned as the violinist.

On most Double Concerto albums I've come across, both violinists are mentioned. E.g., Yehudi Menuhin and David Oistrakh; Itzhak Perlman and Isaac Stern; etc.


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## wkasimer

If you don't mind HIP, try to find the CD with Andrew Manze and Rachel Podger. I think that it's on Harmonia Mundi.


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## Mal

Wouldn't the lead violin of the ASMF be considered a virtuoso? Given the democratic nature of the orchestra it might have been considered too pushy to have his/her name on the cover. Was it Alan Loveday?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/may/02/alan-loveday-obituary


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## Josquin13

Leave it to Gidon Kremer to record the Double Concerto with himself... actually, I had his earlier Eurodisc recording with his then wife, violinist Tatiana Grindenko, on LP, and while I haven't heard it in many years, I remember being particularly impressed by their Double Concerto (more so than by 'Kremer & Kremer' on Philips), and have recently ordered an import CD of it (last week):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-V...&sr=1-5&keywords=kremer+bach+violin+concertos

Otherwise, among modern instrument recordings, I've most liked the recordings by Grumiaux, Oistrakh, Hahn (as I like her fast tempi), Suk, Kremer with oboist Heinz Holliger in BWV 1060, and Accardo (on Philips). (I don't know Julia Fischer's recording well enough to comment.)

Among HIP versions (which I prefer in this repertory), over the decades I've most liked Jaap Schröder & Christopher Hirons, with the Academy of Ancient Music (led by Christopher Hogwood), Elizabeth Blumenstock with Arcangeli Baroque Strings (a real sleeper), Stanley Ritchie & The Bach Ensemble (led by Joshua Rifkin), Elizabeth Wallfisch with the Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment, and Petra Mülljeans & the Freiburger Barockorchester. I've also liked oboist Alfredo Bernardini with violinist Fabio Biondi in the Concerto for Violin & Oboe, BWV 1060, and I'd like to hear Bernardini's recent recording with his violinist daughter, Cecilia, & the Dunedin Consort (led by John Butt). Manze & Podger are good too, though I've not heard Podger's recent recordings on Channel Classics. Violinist Alina Ibragimova is worth hearing in this repertory as well, either on a modern or period violin. (I haven't heard Amadine Beyer's recording with Gli Incogniti, nor Concerto Copenhagen either, which gets excellent reviews.)

https://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebas...3303211&sr=1-3&keywords=schroder+bach+hogwood

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Arc...r=1-1-catcorr&keywords=arcangeli+baroque+bach

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Elizabe...bar-strip-0&keywords=elizabeth+wallfisch+bach

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Con...keywords=harmonia+mundi+bach+violin+concertos

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concert...303434&sr=1-1&keywords=bernardini+bach+biondi

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-...03492&sr=1-1&keywords=bernardini+bach+dunedin

https://www.amazon.com/Violin-Conce...keywords=stanley+ritchie+bach+concerto+rifkin

P.S. In addition, period violinist Elfa Run Kristindottir & Solistenensemble Kaleidoskop are very good in two of the concertos normally performed on a harpsichord--BWV 1052 & 56 (which I enjoyed hearing played on a violin, for a change)--though I probably wouldn't recommend her recording quite as strongly as the others mentioned above (though it does have audiophile sound quality, which is always a bonus): https://www.amazon.com/Violin-Conce...rds=Bach+violin+concertos+ars+produktion+sacd


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## 13hm13

> Leave it to Gidon Kremer to record the Double Concerto with himself...


 Like Mal suggested, it's likely:



> Wouldn't the lead violin of the ASMF be considered a virtuoso? Given the democratic nature of the orchestra it might have been considered too pushy to have his/her name on the cover. Was it Alan Loveday?


That Kremer CD is one of the first CDs I purchased -- way back in 1986 ?? -- and I still prefer it to most other Double Concerto's.





The Manze & Podger performance seem interesting (from what I heard on the Amazon sampler). But that duo's BBC Proms is a bit off -- especially Manze.


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## Josquin13

"Wouldn't the lead violin of the ASMF be considered a virtuoso? Given the democratic nature of the orchestra it might have been considered too pushy to have his/her name on the cover. Was it Alan Loveday?"

No it wasn't Loveday (or Brown), if I understand you correctly, as Kremer recorded the Double Concerto with a tape of himself playing the other violin part.


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## 13hm13

Josquin13 said:


> "Wouldn't the lead violin of the ASMF be considered a virtuoso? Given the democratic nature of the orchestra it might have been considered too pushy to have his/her name on the cover. Was it Alan Loveday?"
> 
> No it wasn't Loveday (or Brown), if I understand you correctly, as Kremer recorded the Double Concerto with a tape of himself playing the other violin part.


I was going to suggest the same thing in my last post (I swear) but thought the concept too improbable. That is, it's a multi-tracking job, like rock/pop studio SESSION recordings.

This brings up some issues. E.g., Don't the members "play off each other" -- are inspired and prompted by each other's LIVE presence?

Then again, film composers do tend to layer sessions together. Sometimes, each member of the orch. wears headphones to hear the full mix (incl. prev .sessions, metronomes, etc.)








above: Composer/conductor Brian Tyler prepares to record with the Hollywood Studio Symphony (from: http://scoringsessions.com/)

About the Kremer album ... well he is holding TWO violins in that cover photo, suggesting a session job??


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## Josquin13

"About the Kremer album ... well he is holding TWO violins in that cover photo, suggesting a session job??"

Yes, exactly. It does happen. For example, years ago violinist Isabelle van Keulen recorded Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante, K. 364 for Violin & Viola, and the Concertone for Two Violins, K. 190, playing all the violin parts herself, along with the viola part in the Sinfonia Concertante. She's a terrific musician, but I'm not especially keen on the practice myself. As you say, ideally musicians should "play off each other" and be "inspired and prompted by each other's LIVE presence." Plus, there needs to be a natural contrast between players, a certain degree of separate individuality within the musical conversation or dialogue. Which is my problem with "Kremer & Kremer" in the Double Concerto, as both parts sound like they're being played by Gidon Kremer, just as all the violin parts in Van Keulen's Mozart sound like they're being played by Van Keulen. That's why I preferred Kremer & Grindenko's recording of the Double Concerto.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Sinfonia-Concertante-Concertone-K-190/dp/B000005YOI

Sometimes when listening to poor performances on record, I find myself wondering if the musicians were actually in the same room together, on the same day, or if they recorded their individual parts separately on different dates. I've heard the latter does occasionally happen.


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## Pugg

13hm13 said:


> Looking for a single CD album for Bach violin concertos.
> The Hahn and Fischer albums come up at the top of Amazon search-results page.
> 
> On YouTube, someone posted Grumiaux (Philips), and the recording quality is very good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many other "Bach VC" albums, incl. Janine Jansen, Nigel Kennedy, Freiburger Barockorchester [on period instruments], Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Viktoria Mullova , Anne Sophie Mutter, et. al.
> 
> What's a good Bach VC album to begin with?
> 
> ]


This one will do, al time great .


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## wkasimer

> Leave it to Gidon Kremer to record the Double Concerto with himself...


Well, he wouldn't be the first. Heifetz made such a recording, back in 1946:


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## premont

Dubbing is not unusual in recordings of baroque music, From the top of my head I recall Werner Kloor dubbing himself on viola in the sixth Brandenburg concerto and Karl Richter dubbing himself in the fuga for two harpsichords from AoF. In both cases leading to very homogenous playing. I am not sure whether I prefer homogenous playing (like the two Oistrakh's in BWV 1043) or more individual playing (like Menuhin/Oistrakh or Menuhin/Stern in BWV 1043). Both ways have advantages and disadvantages. Maybe the stereo reproduction making it possible to distinguish the two soloists (or the one soloist dubbing himself) from each other, even if the playing is homogenous, is preferable in all cases.


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## 13hm13

wkasimer said:


> Well, he wouldn't be the first. Heifetz made such a recording, back in 1946:


Very cool, but ....
This is a *1946* recording?!
How did they "over-dub" w/o tape? [The first commercial magnetic recorder wasn't avail. until 1948]

I did look up this recording on Discogs and it does show a 78 RPM shellac release but with no date.


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## EvaBaron

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Hillary Hahn's recording is also well-received, as is Fischer's... but I personally would go with Andrew Manze, the acknowledged master of Baroque violin. Rachel Podger's recent recording is also worth hearing... but then again, she can be heard as the second violinist with Manze on the double violin concerto.


I recently listened to Manze and normally I don't like the sound of HIP recordings, I thought this one was phenomenal. I have never heard the 2 violins sounding so clearly, very well balanced. The first recording I listened to and which I'm used to is Hahn, which is technically very good and amazingly played but I think especially in the double concerto that the tempi are too fast for this piece. I believe hahn's recording of the first movement of this concerto comes in at 3:06 minutes or something, and I believe Manze is closer to 3:26. Oistrakh is a tad too slow for me at 4:15. Could someone recommend me a good recording that is between Manze and oistrakh in tempi?


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## Kreisler jr

No double concerto included but a favorite of mine is Zehetmair (Berlin Classics) with modern instruments but influenced by historical practice. I find this more flexible and rhetorical than Manze although the latter is also good. (Can't recommend a double I like better than Manze/Podger but I haven't heard many.)


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## Kreisler jr

13hm13 said:


> Very cool, but ....
> This is a *1946* recording?!
> How did they "over-dub" w/o tape? [The first commercial magnetic recorder wasn't avail. until 1948]
> 
> I did look up this recording on Discogs and it does show a 78 RPM shellac release but with no date.


According to the comments below, there was overdubbing already years before Heifetz. It can be done without magnetic tape, apparently.

https://rec.music.classical.recordings.narkive.com/gPQZgrYF/heifetz-bach-double-concerto


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