# Domingo vs Pavarotti..................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Two of the great modern day tenors.
Who do you prefer?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Neither. Beniamino Gigli!

Ok, I'll play along. It's very close, between the two I think I'd choose Pavarotti in his prime. I think that Domingo was perhaps the greater tenor, so it's just a matter of personal preference.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

Pavarotti for sure. While Domingo sang everything, he was , essentially, a dramatic/verismo tenor. And before you take me to task on that opinion, rest assured that I have most all of his recordings, and his Nemorino, Duke of Mantua, Alfredo, etc., are, at best, second string performances.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pavarotti was a freak. That is not pejorative, but the occasion of a voice like that, in a super-sized human being with a barrel rib-cage and all the rest is as near as it comes to "a sport of nature." (Joan Sutherland was another such 'freak.')

Pavarotti could not act his way out of a paper bag, and he was far too often a visibly selfish performer onstage, saving his energy for when he was the focus of attention in a solo and half phoning it in when in a duet. He could only sing well in Italian... and it was a tremendous voice, the type of phenomenon favored most by those easily captivated by the more circus-like aspect of music performance vs. complete musicianship.

When the freakish and glorious voice comes with all those shortcomings Pavarotti had, I will instead go for the other singer whose musicianship and fine singing, with its acting appropriate coloration, delivers each and every time.

Pavarotti was 'a voice,' Domingo was an artist with a voice.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Pavarotti.

I don't understand the technical aspects, ribcage etc, I just prefer the sound of his voice.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I like them both, can't choose


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

PetrB said:


> Pavarotti was a freak. That is not pejorative, but the occasion of a voice like that, in a super-sized human being with a barrel rib-cage and all the rest is as near as it comes to "a sport of nature." (Joan Sutherland was another such 'freak.')
> 
> Pavarotti could not act his way out of a paper bag, and he was far too often a visibly selfish performer onstage, saving his energy for when he was the focus of attention in a solo and half phoning it in when in a duet. He could only sing well in Italian... and it was a tremendous voice, the type of phenomenon favored most by those easily captivated by the more circus-like aspect of music performance vs. complete musicianship.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^

Can't stand Pavarotti.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Why is it necessary to choose? Pavarotti's voice was a force of nature, to be sure, and, particularly in his early career, a voice of such ease and penetration. It seemed to cost him no effort at all. He just opened his mouth and the sound popped out.

But I tend to think that opera is about a lot more than just voice, and for sheer artistry Domingo wins hands down. The complete artist, an actor as well as a singer, who constantly developed. He's gone on a bit too long for comfort, and I'd question the wisdom of singing all those baritone roles he has been singing recently. I heard him live more often than I did Pavarotti, and can attest to the richness and beauty of his timbre, along with his compelling stage presence. 

We should be thankful we had two such tenors to choose from.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Definitely Domingo, and most certainly as an all-round artist.

There's something of a bleating sheep in Pavarotti's tone that spoils it for me.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Purely based on sound, it would be Pavarotti. I adore his bright timbre and easy vocal production. Even his high Cs don't sound at all forced. However, Domingo has an incredible voice with a penetrating, ringing quality which explains and sums up my love for spintos of all voice types! His interpretative skills and artistry clinch it for me.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

It's hard to choose, but overall I'd say Domingo as he had greater versatility. Don't misunderstand -- for me Pavarotti "is" several characters, from a purely vocal standpoint, not the least of which is the Duke of Mantua in RIGOLETTO. I'd always heard, however, that Pavarotti could not read music, and I think that if you can't read music and haven't mastered several sung languages (as Domingo could and did) your repertoire is inevitably going to be more or less limited. In short, Pavarotti did what he did superbly well, but Domingo, in addition to having a beautiful voice, is just a more complete operatic artist, in my opinion.

Here's one of my all-time favorite Domingo performances:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Heartily dislike both- Pavarotti was physically uglier, yet Domingo is the most overrated musician in the world ever.

Alain Vanzo was the most recent operatic tenor I can listen to with pleasure.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I voted Domingo. I don't care for Pavarotti at all and I really enjoy Domingo's Wagner recordings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pavarotti for sheer voice and Italian opera. He was quite exceptional as a voice. Just listen to his recordings of Boheme and Butterfly with Karajan. Pity he didn't record Tosca with HvK too instead of the flaccid Rescigno.
But Domingo was a great artist. He seemed to be able to sing anything and most of it well. Listen to the Levine Tosca where he is the tenor. His was the more baritonal voice, of course. A pity he's now singing baritone roles. He should want to be remembered for his pomp not his old age!


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## Divasin (Aug 8, 2014)

I agree with most comments pro and con on these two singers. Pav's voice was one in a million but he was too much self obsessed... from everything I've seen and heard Domingo is much more of a collaborative artist, giving and generous to colleges... key to my vote that he is the superior artist.


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## Divasin (Aug 8, 2014)

OOPS... that should be Domingo's colleagues!!!!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't know what it is about opera that brings out a nastiness among the fans worthy of obsessed sports fans. One need only frequent the various opera forums or posts on You-Tube to come across endless vile comments... often of a vulgar sexual nature when female singers are involved... about Singer X because the individual prefers Singer Y. 

Personally, I admire both singers. They both have their undeniable strengths... and weaknesses. Ultimately, I would choose Domingo simply on the basis that Domingo IMO had a greater breadth and artistry and as such, I have quite a few more recordings by his that I would consider "essential".


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I like the other guy.

"Ah, my favorite tenor! ...and those two other guys."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> Can't stand Pavarotti.


I was trying --quite outside the general reputation of my character, 
to be tactful _and_ polite

-- as per what you said -- 
Madame, 

:tiphat:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

JohnGerald said:


> Pavarotti for sure. While Domingo sang everything, he was , essentially, a dramatic/verismo tenor. And before you take me to task on that opinion, rest assured that I have most all of his recordings, and his Nemorino, Duke of Mantua, Alfredo, etc., are, at best, second string performances.


Personally, I like Domingo's Alfredo on the Kleiber TRAVIATA, though I can hear how it might seem too "heavy" to some listeners; I, however, think he lightens his timbre nicely for the role. But that high C at the end of his Act II cabaletta really shouldn't have been allowed.

My favorite Alfredo on recordings is Carlo Bergonzi (may he rest in peace).


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Placido Domingo!!


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## jdcbr (Jul 21, 2014)

As I've stated on other threads on this forum, I do not enjoy watching Pavarotti- he always looked scared to death on stage. While he may not have had any acting ability on stage, he did express a great deal of emotion through his singing. I guess I'd rather watch Domingo, but rather listen to Pavarotti on recordings. For all Domingo's many gifts, I believe he has been too inclusive in his repertoire, giving some of his roles a generic quality. I do admire many things about him, but NOT his recent switch to baritone. The voice is not dark enough, the center of vocal gravity is too high, and, sad to say, he just sounds old. He should rest on his many, well-earned laurels.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Divasin said:


> I agree with most comments pro and con on these two singers. Pav's voice was one in a million but he was too much self obsessed... from everything I've seen and heard Domingo is much more of a collaborative artist, giving and generous to colleges... key to my vote that he is the superior artist.


It isn't that I don't respect and recognize the beauty of Pavarotti's voice. Of course I do. 
But bottom line, Domingo is the one my gut responds to. (except his newly found baritone (?) voice. Bah, humbug!)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pavarotti began in the '60s with a thrilling instrument and good musical instincts. I can enjoy his work on records up to the early '70s. After that his concern for vocal and interpretive subtleties became hit-or-miss, he developed bad habits (such as exploding final consonants), his soft singing (when he chose to bother with it) became dry and bodiless and detached from his full voice, and he became uninteresting to me. Domingo never had quite the sheer vocal endowment of Pavarotti; his upper range was limited and constricted, and he suffered from a similar inability to move convincingly from full voice to mezza voce. However, he has always been a conscientious and effective artist, and since I value this highly I have to prefer his work in general. 

But only if Pavarotti had been a finer artist, and Domingo more vocally complete, would I be able to rate either of them as a favorite. When I want to hear what tenor singing can be, it's back to Caruso, Gigli, Schipa, Piccaver, Valetti, Wunderlich, Bjorling, the young di Stefano...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

...Shicoff, Pertile, Bergonzi,Tucker....


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Domingo never had quite the sheer vocal endowment of Pavarotti; *his upper range was limited and constricted*, and he suffered from a similar inability to move convincingly from full voice to mezza voce. However, he has always been a conscientious and effective artist, and since I value this highly I have to prefer his work in general.
> 
> But only if Pavarotti had been a finer artist, *and Domingo more vocally complete*, would I be able to rate either of them as a favorite. When I want to hear what tenor singing can be, it's back to Caruso, Gigli, Schipa, Piccaver, Valetti, Wunderlich, Bjorling, the young di Stefano...


Few things are more subjective than taste in singers, so this is only my two bits - no offence to anyone:

While the very top of Domingo's voice was limited, I don't think it's fair to say that his "upper range" was in any way a problem. During his best period (from perhaps the mid-seventies until the early nineties), his voice was strong and firm throughout the tenor range, top C apart. He made some truly outstanding recordings during that period, not least for DG. I realize this is probably heresy to quite a few of you out there, but personally, I prefer him to all the other singers you mention, except for Wunderlich and Björling - possibly the two most naturally beautiful tenor voices in history.

As for Pavarotti, it seems to me that he at some point became too much a "star" and too little a singer, but his voice talent was the real thing. Few can match him in "Che gelida manina", "Nessun dorma" or "Deserto in terra". For me, he is still the best Rigoletto Duke, challenged only by the young Kraus. I agree that his recordings typically became less attractive from the mid-'70s onwards, but sometimes they can take you by surprise. I expected his 1992 Don Carlo for Muti to be a complete write-off, for instance, but it isn't. Far from it.

On topic again: Domingo vs. Pavarotti? Depends entirely on the role. Rodolfo, Calaf (on disc, at least), Tonio - Pavarotti. Otello, Samson, Cavaradossi - Domingo.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

OperaGeek said:


> Few things are more subjective than taste in singers, so this is only my two bits - no offence to anyone:
> 
> While the very top of Domingo's voice was limited, I don't think it's fair to say that his "upper range" was in any way a problem. During his best period (from perhaps the mid-seventies until the early nineties), his voice was strong and firm throughout the tenor range, top C apart. He made some truly outstanding recordings during that period, not least for DG. I realize this is probably heresy to quite a few of you out there, but personally, I prefer him to all the other singers you mention, except for Wunderlich and Björling - possibly the two most naturally beautiful tenor voices in history.
> 
> ...


Agree here. But Tonio? Isn't that a baritone role?


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Agree here. But Tonio? Isn't that a baritone role?


Yes, the Pagliacci Tonio is a baritone role, but there is also a tenor Tonio - the hero in Donizetti's La fille du régiment. He's the one who sings "Ah! mes amis, quel jour de fête!", which features no less than nine high Cs. Pavarotti handles it like few others in the studio recording of the complete opera under Bonynge.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Heartily dislike both- Pavarotti was physically uglier, yet Domingo is the most overrated musician in the world ever.
> 
> Alain Vanzo was the most recent operatic tenor I can listen to with pleasure.


 Whoops- that was super rude, and I apologise.
I was just getting frustrated at the amount of space allotted to discussion of these two well-loved gentlemen on this forum. Obviously people should be able to discuss whichever artists they feel inspired to discuss, without uncivil responses from the more misanthropic, fogeyish elements on here, i.e. yours truly. FWIW most of my tenor crushes wouldn't have got very far on looks alone either!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Of the two, I prefer Domingo -- but my own two top tenors are Wunderlich and Kaufmann.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

They were just better at certain roles...imagine that they were both on the roster for the next few nights and you could see either.

La Boheme....I doubt anyone is going to pick Domingo over Pav in this.

Otello - I doubt anyone is going to want to see Pav instead of Domingo.

Both have recorded lots of roles, some they should not have attempted but they are like apples and oranges....different for different occasions


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

I prefer Baritone, but I'll play along... Domingo.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OperaGeek said:


> Few things are more subjective than taste in singers, so this is only my two bits - no offence to anyone:
> 
> While the very top of Domingo's voice was limited, I don't think it's fair to say that his "upper range" was in any way a problem. During his best period (from perhaps the mid-seventies until the early nineties), his voice was strong and firm throughout the tenor range, top C apart. He made some truly outstanding recordings during that period, not least for DG. I realize this is probably heresy to quite a few of you out there, but personally, I prefer him to all the other singers you mention, except for Wunderlich and Björling - possibly the two most naturally beautiful tenor voices in history.
> 
> ...


I have been listening to Domingo's second recording of _Don Carlo_, and what struck me about his voice, as such, was precisely the refusal of his top notes to "open out." The sound simply narrows and loses freedom and ring at the top. That's what I referred to as "constriction in the upper range." I don't mean to make it sound like a major liability, but a comparison with the other tenors I mentioned is instructive. I should add that, as with many singers, his top was better when he was younger, and that he managed to have a long career even while subjecting that upper range to a role like Otello, a part he was not a natural vocal fit for. So I do congratulate him on remaining possibly the world's best second-rate tenor for several decades. (I might call Pavarotti, by contrast, the world's worst first-rate tenor.)

It is also instructive to compare the ability of various tenors to handle dynamic gradation: a free, easy, even transition through all volume levels, involving various mixtures of "head" and "chest" resonance, along with a mezza voce of tonal beauty and flexibility, is a hallmark of great singing, and something to which too few tenors can treat us nowadays. Both Pavarotti and Domingo fell very short in this respect. Singers closer to the nineteenth century, when such technique was considered essential vocal equipment, show how it's done. With regard to this, I should have added Nicolai Gedda to my list - and even Corelli, who could be crude, could execute a stunning diminuendo from fortissimo to piano.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It is also instructive to compare the ability of various tenors to handle dynamic gradation: a free, easy, even transition through all volume levels, involving various mixtures of "head" and "chest" resonance, along with a mezza voce of tonal beauty and flexibility, is a hallmark of great singing, and something to which too few tenors can treat us nowadays. *Both Pavarotti and Domingo fell very short in this respect.*


Are you sure you are not confusing subjective taste for objective analysis here? Try Pavarotti's first "Un ballo in maschera" (Bartoletti/Decca) and Domingo's second "Samson et Dalila" (Chung/EMI-Warner), for example. To me, at least, it sounds like they both had the ability to do quite well in the area in which you feel they "fell very short".



Woodduck said:


> So I do congratulate him [Domingo] on remaining possibly *the world's best second-rate tenor* for several decades. (I might call Pavarotti, by contrast, the *world's worst first-rate tenor*.)


Again - are you sure you are not confusing objective analysis and subjective taste? It seems a bit strange that conductors like Karajan, Giulini, Abbado, Muti, Solti, Levine, Mehta and others should repeatedly choose to work with a "second-rate tenor", both live and in the studio. It's not as if Domingo was the only competent tenor around - throughout his career, he has at all times had very capable colleagues/competitors.

It's also a little strange that you label Pavarotti a "first-rate" tenor, when he reportedly "fell very short" in the one respect that is apparently crucial in order to qualify as first rate.

Whether one likes Pavarotti and/or Domingo is a matter of personal taste. We all hear things differently - some singers trigger our emotional responses, others don't. Subjective enjoyment is, however, not necessarily a reflection of a singer's objective qualities.

Personally, I enjoy both Domingo and Pavarotti a lot - when they sing roles that suit them.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OperaGeek said:


> Are you sure you are not confusing subjective taste for objective analysis here? Try Pavarotti's first "Un ballo in maschera" (Bartoletti/Decca) and Domingo's second "Samson et Dalila" (Chung/EMI-Warner), for example. To me, at least, it sounds like they both had the ability to do quite well in the area in which you feel they "fell very short".
> 
> Personally, I enjoy both Domingo and Pavarotti a lot - when they sing roles that suit them.


Actually I think it is you who is confusing objective and subjective. You are allowing your subjective enjoyment of the work of both singers to cloud objective analysis of their singing.

I too enjoy the work of both singers to different degrees, though I incline towards Domingo as being the greater all-round artist, but I do understand what Woodduck means when he talks of the voice's refusal to open up on top. I was reminded of this only yesterday when watching a DVD of *Cavalleria Rusticana* and *I Pagliacci* from the Met in 1978. Domingo is not yet the stage actor he was to become, and compared to Stratas, his Nedda, his acting is fairly rudimentary and generalised. This is certainly one aspect of his artistry that improved immeasurably, but I too felt the voice sounded a little constructed at the top, musically and intelligently though he sang. It never thrilled the way that, say Bjoerling or Vickers do.

I heard Domingo live on many occasions. He was a tremendous stage performer and his voice certainly had a beauty and warmth in the middle register which was welcome. He also used it with taste with and intelligence. He has had a remarkable career and I admire him enormously, but, if I'm being objective, he had his limitations, one of which was this constricted top that Woodduck refers to, though I think it was possibly at his freest in his middle period, rather than on the earliest discs, as Woodduck suggests.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Actually I think it is you who is confusing objective and subjective. *You are allowing your subjective enjoyment of the work of both singers to cloud objective analysis of their singing.*


A surprising comment, indeed. Rather disappointing, too, to be honest. My point is merely that Woodduck is referring to perceived flaws in Domingo's and Pavarotti's singing, respectively, that do not necessarily exist, objectively speaking (i.e., the comment regarding dynamic gradation). I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Domingo's top was constricted - himself included. He wasn't perfect. Then again, no-one is.

Your description of Vickers as someone who "thrilled" illustrates the subjective nature of this (rather futile, I admit) discussion very well. Subjectively, he could be thrilling, sure, but objectively, few high-profile tenors had more vocal flaws than him.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Pavarotti for sheer voice and Italian opera. He was quite exceptional as a voice. Just listen to his recordings of Boheme and Butterfly with Karajan. Pity he didn't record Tosca with HvK too instead of the flaccid Rescigno.
> But Domingo was a great artist. He seemed to be able to sing anything and most of it well. Listen to the Levine Tosca where he is the tenor. His was the more baritonal voice, of course. A pity he's now singing baritone roles. He should want to be remembered for his pomp not his old age!





PetrB said:


> Pavarotti was a freak. That is not pejorative, but the occasion of a voice like that, in a super-sized human being with a barrel rib-cage and all the rest is as near as it comes to "a sport of nature." (Joan Sutherland was another such 'freak.')
> 
> Pavarotti could not act his way out of a paper bag, and he was far too often a visibly selfish performer onstage, saving his energy for when he was the focus of attention in a solo and half phoning it in when in a duet. He could only sing well in Italian... and it was a tremendous voice, the type of phenomenon favored most by those easily captivated by the more circus-like aspect of music performance vs. complete musicianship.
> 
> ...


That is how I feel also....

Pavarotti had the best pure voice of the two, from 1965-90 prime era we are fortunate to have a huge collection of recorded performances many of which are studio recordings, a massive agile voice with that golden tenor ring that will never be forgotten

Domingo is without doubt a better actor also possessing a strong versatile wide ranging voice that he very effectively uses to tell the story of an opera, but from a pure vocal standard I must say Pavarotti in his prime is unchallenged by Domingo....


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OperaGeek said:


> A surprising comment, indeed. Rather disappointing, too, to be honest. My point is merely that Woodduck is referring to perceived flaws in Domingo's and Pavarotti's singing, respectively, that do not necessarily exist, objectively speaking (i.e., the comment regarding dynamic gradation). I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Domingo's top was constricted - himself included. He wasn't perfect. Then again, no-one is.
> 
> Your description of Vickers as someone who "thrilled" illustrates the subjective nature of this (rather futile, I admit) discussion very well. Subjectively, he could be thrilling, sure, but objectively, few high-profile tenors had more vocal flaws than him.


A purely subjective response.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

OperaGeek said:


> Your description of Vickers as someone who "thrilled" illustrates the subjective nature of this (rather futile, I admit) discussion very well. Subjectively, he could be thrilling, sure, but objectively, few high-profile tenors had more vocal flaws than him.


I'm afraid I don't listen to Vickers (or any other singer) to objectively. Vickers with all his flaws could thrill like few tenors since Melchior. he was an acquired taste, I admit, nbut once one has acquired it, he makes the hair stand on end. Such dangerous singing.


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## Marcel (Aug 14, 2014)

I choose to Luciano simply because I prefer the timbre (?) of voice. I do not care to be a wardrobe and not be good actor as Domingo because the most important thing is his voice. Each one also has virtues that lend themselves to beauty in different roles; Pavarotti, lyrical, Domingo, dramatic. With Luciano lately it happens to me I hear that strangle the trebles; not happened to me before. With Domingo that bored me his voice and, in addition, that to sing anything: singing tangos is horrible!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I'm afraid I don't listen to Vickers (or any other singer) to objectively. Vickers with all his flaws could thrill like few tenors since Melchior. he was an acquired taste, I admit, nbut once one has acquired it, he makes the hair stand on end. Such dangerous singing.


I love singers who go for it, myself. "Live dangerously. Build your houses on the slopes of Vesuvius," as Nietzsche would say. The results speak for themselves. I'll take drama and vivid self-expression over anodyne conservatism any _day._

Artists who have something human to convey above and beyond mere notes on a page.

Vickers, Callas, Furtwangler, Stokowski-- headliners, Baby. _;D _


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Vickers Florestan was the best ever. Listen to it with Klemperer or Karajan. Takes you right to the edge.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> A purely subjective response.


Hardly. With his persistently dry and harsh timbre and erratic top range (check out the "Esultate" in the Karajan Otello, for instance - three cracks), all too often threatening to come off the rails at any time, Vickers is a comparatively easy target if one discusses vocal flaws - _objectively_, that is.

On the other hand, he was a passionate, intense artist who could produce very involving interpretations, _subjectively_ speaking.

Get it? :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OperaGeek said:


> Hardly. With his persistently dry and harsh timbre and erratic top range (check out the "Esultate" in the Karajan Otello, for instance - three cracks), all too often threatening to come off the rails at any time, Vickers is a comparatively easy target if one discusses vocal flaws - _objectively_, that is.
> 
> On the other hand, he was a passionate, intense artist who could produce very involving interpretations, _subjectively_ speaking.
> 
> Get it? :tiphat:


"Persistently harsh and dry timbre and erratic top range" is actually a totally subjective response to his singing , and not in the least objective.

Personally I don't find Vickers's voice in the least dry and harsh, but that is my subjective response. Admittedly he had a recalcitrant top C, and, like Domingo, did his utmost to avoid the note altogether, but he did have the ability to sing a real _mesa di voce_ and a true _pianissimo_ top B at the end of _Celeste Aida_ and in Don Jose's _Flower Song_, something that neither Domingo nor Pavarotti could manage. That is objective.

Another example. Alfredo Kraus is often criticised for having a dry voice (subjective), but he had a technique second to none (objective).

Subjectively speaking, I think your protestations are all over the place. Objectively speaking, I can't be bothered with them.

:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Pavarotti.
> 
> I don't understand the technical aspects, ribcage etc, I just prefer the sound of his voice.


And that's really all that matters.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

OperaGeek said:


> Hardly. With his persistently dry and harsh timbre and erratic top range (check out the "Esultate" in the Karajan Otello, for instance - three cracks), all too often threatening to come off the rails at any time, Vickers is a comparatively easy target if one discusses vocal flaws - _objectively_, that is.
> 
> On the other hand, he was a passionate, intense artist who could produce very involving interpretations, _subjectively_ speaking.
> 
> Get it? :tiphat:


Your view on his timbre is also subjective!


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Marcel said:


> With Domingo that bored me his voice and, in addition, that to sing anything: singing tangos is horrible!


Ew! I'm a Domingo fan, but I can't even imagine that sounding good.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

marinasabina said:


> Ew! I'm a Domingo fan, but I can't even imagine that sounding good.


If you like Domingo, and you haven't heard this already, seek out the Carmen from the Vienna State Opera conducted by Carlos Kleiber. You won't be disappointed.


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Ah Pavaroti and Domingo both screaming but I like them both and are their handsome people. 
Rest in peace Pavaroti we still love your songs.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OperaGeek said:


> A surprising comment, indeed. Rather disappointing, too, to be honest. My point is merely that Woodduck is referring to perceived flaws in Domingo's and Pavarotti's singing, respectively, that do not necessarily exist, objectively speaking (i.e., the comment regarding dynamic gradation). I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Domingo's top was constricted - himself included. He wasn't perfect. Then again, no-one is.
> 
> Your description of Vickers as someone who "thrilled" illustrates the subjective nature of this (rather futile, I admit) discussion very well. Subjectively, he could be thrilling, sure, but objectively, few high-profile tenors had more vocal flaws than him.


The ability or inability of a singer to make smooth dynamic gradations at various pitches and dynamic levels and on the different vowels is not in the least a subjective matter. It is a fundamental element of vocal technique which singers have been taught, and have striven to master, at least since the early days of opera. It is, in fact, the principal sign of a finished technique. Farinelli mastered it, Plancon mastered it, Gigli mastered it, Gedda mastered it, and if you haven't mastered it you are, to that extent, deficient in technique. It is not something imaginary, or a matter of opinion or taste. It is audible, and it is important. Neither Pavarotti nor Domingo attempted to play with dynamics very often; usually it was either/or - soft or loud - and when it was soft, which it wasn't often, the tone was drab and not very expressive. Expressiveness in singing is largely dependent on the ability to "shade" the voice, which requires maintaining a body and life in the tone at all dynamic levels. Loss of the ability to move easily between dynamic levels is a frequent difficulty in voices that have been used hard over time. Unfortunately it is also a characteristic of great numbers of voices that have never been subjected to a thorough regimen of bel canto training to begin with. I'll grant, however, that with tenors in particular it's often hard to say whether they don't do much vocal shading because they can't, or simply because it has never occurred to them!

As for Vickers, I'd just recommend listening to his stunningly flexible and expressive singing of the tenor solos in the old Beecham recording of _Messiah_. You'll be lucky ever to hear this music treated to such unflawed vocalism.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

So glad to see someone mention Gedda. One of my very favorite tenors. :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> So glad to see someone mention Gedda. One of my very favorite tenors. :tiphat:


Yes indeed. An extraordinarily intelligent, versatile, linguistically accomplished singer whose vocal timbre may have been less glamorous than some, but who was a truly finished artist in every way, and who had the vocal technique to do anything the music he sang required, including a superb command of dynamics and the musicianship to make good use of it.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Yes indeed. An extraordinarily intelligent, versatile, linguistically accomplished singer whose vocal timbre may have been less glamorous than some, but who was a truly finished artist in every way, and who had the vocal technique to do anything the music he sang required, including a superb command of dynamics and the musicianship to make good use of it.


An intelligent singer that got the most from the words.
And there was a beauty there too.

His Boheme, Tell, Faust, Traviata, Mozart, Hoffman, Werther, to name a few are extraordinary.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm surprised that Placido is ahead here. 
But glad.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Pavarotti (more elegant, better technique), but neither are close to the greatest tenor in history imo


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I like them both almost equally, Pavarotti slightly more.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Pavarotti was more legendary than Domingo. You can't beat Pavarotti for Verdi.

And Domingo's terrible Wagner roles soured me on his career.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I never understood people who think Domingo is a misplaced baritone/sounded like a baritone. he sounds obviously tenor to me.



albertfallickwang said:


> Pavarotti was more legendary than Domingo. You can't beat Pavarotti for Verdi.
> And Domingo's terrible Wagner roles soured me on his career.


'fraid I must disagree 





Pavarotti had the elegance, but what makes Verdi what it is is the merging of elegance AND power. Pav could never fill out the roles the way Corelli could.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Yes indeed. An extraordinarily intelligent, versatile, linguistically accomplished singer whose vocal timbre may have been less glamorous than some, but who was a truly finished artist in every way, and who had the vocal technique to do anything the music he sang required, including a superb command of dynamics and the musicianship to make good use of it.


I like Gedda a lot too- an attractive voice, and high notes to die for, but I have to disagree on his technique. I've recently bought the complete recording of Guillaume Tell (with Bacquier, Caballe etc.) and it's mostly excellent, but Gedda hasn't really got the ability to sing florid music well, and it really spoils the great duet, 'Ah, Mathilde', which I had been looking forward to:






You can hear at around 0.16 and 2.49 on that clip how he can't sing the coloratura cleanly, and he indulges in some rather ugly upward portamenti on the words 'patrie' and 'sacrifie'- perhaps it's the only way he can get from the lower note to the higher one. Here's how it should be done, on an old and sadly abridged recording:






It does seem churlish to complain about Gedda, as he sang Arnold probably better than any other tenor of that generation would have done, but I can't help regretting the aspects of technique, once nearly universal, that had mostly been lost (by male singers at any rate) by the middle of the last century.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Heartily dislike both- Pavarotti was physically uglier, yet Domingo is the most overrated musician in the world ever.
> 
> Alain Vanzo was the most recent operatic tenor I can listen to with pleasure.


Whoops- sorry folks, that was incredibly rude.  Must have got out of bed the wrong side that day, which is no excuse.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I never understood people who think Domingo is a misplaced baritone/sounded like a baritone. he sounds obviously tenor to me.
> 
> 'fraid I must disagree
> 
> ...


Of course... but this thread is focused on Domingo versus Pavarotti. And yes, Corelli is the winner.
I even prefer Jonas Kaufmann over Pavarotti and that's just me.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> I even prefer Jonas Kaufmann over Pavarotti and that's just me.


And me............


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

I'm bored of both of them, but more bored of Pavarotti. Haven't heard too many head-on comparisons, but they both recorded Faust in _Mefistofele_ - and that one goes to Domingo hands down. Pavarotti just did not have the sheer firepower to cut through the orchestra, chorus, _and_ Mefisto in the Epilogue.

On the other hand Domingo made fairly heavy going of it too, but I _could_ hear him if I paid attention.

The one tenor who blasted right through loud and clear? Who else - Mario del Monaco, Mr. "Can Belto" himself! But at _that_ point in the opera, that's exactly what was needed. (Didn't hurt that Siepi was the Mefisto either - fine, fine basso cantante work!)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pavarotti was a natural wonder vocally and especially in his peak years had one of the most beautiful tenor voices I've ever heard. Domingo doesn't have such a gorgeous sound, but he is much more of an artist and transitioned to become a marvelous heldentenor to boot. Domingo is a genius at what all he has been able to accomplish and to have kept his voice a viable instrument way past the point when most his peers had retired. I heard Domingo live in DC 5 years ago, but couldn't really enjoy it because the production was so horrid. He sounded wonderful, though, and was a very fine Wagner singer.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> And me............


and me (lmao! that's surprising. wasn't expecting to find anyone who agreed with that)


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> and me (lmao! that's surprising. wasn't expecting to find anyone who agreed with that)


JK has his strengths as an actor and as a beauty (and a friend of mine has vowed to make me appreciate the beauty in his singing, too) whereas those of us who are old enough to remember the 1990 World Cup and who have the misfortune to live in soccer-obsessed countries, have seen and heard quite enough of Pavarotti for one lifetime!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I like Gedda a lot too- an attractive voice, and high notes to die for, but I have to disagree on his technique. I've recently bought the complete recording of Guillaume Tell (with Bacquier, Caballe etc.) and it's mostly excellent, but Gedda hasn't really got the ability to sing florid music well, and it really spoils the great duet, 'Ah, Mathilde', which I had been looking forward to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never heard him attempt florid music. Interesting. In any case, he did very well what he normally did, which was quite a lot.


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## Lt.Belle (Jan 19, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> perhaps it's the only way he can get from the lower note to the higher one.


I'm trying to dispute you on this... But find it difficult i think you are maybe right on this one. But still having problems with your example. Obviously the conductor wanted Gedda to sing that way and its actually harder also in my opinion. I don't find it attractive i also like a more florid approach. But i do agree Gedda isn't the best florid singer i think his voice was simply too powerful.

Regarding the topic i have to say Pavarotti is my favorite... He produces such pure sound its overwhelming.


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## Cypress (Dec 19, 2014)

IMHO Domingo.

I am new to opera and having a wonderful time viewing well known operas on DVD. This weekend, I watched Act I of Donnezetti's "L'Elisir d'Amore" with Battle, Pavarotti and Dara.

I was eager to watch a Pavarotti performance based on his name alone but am so far, not overly impressed by his acting ability. He is in the role of Nemorino and it's hard to understand he is a young, peasant from a small village, simple man but enamored of Adina and willing to try anything to get her attention. He seems to sing to the crowd and they seem to love him. This is a MET performance from the 90s. I love Kathleen Battle, but Pavarotti's tone is not pleasant to my ear. I haven't the skill to say what is not going in right for me, but I dislike his tenor voice. I must be in the majority with that opinion as most folks have much more to say as to why he was considered such a fine singer. Honestly, he is so large and sweaty on the stage, it's distracting from the ensemble performance. Opera singers are a unique group. You cannot get it all together in one person some time. 

Overall, Domingo as I prefer a rich voice and a dramatic tenor in his style.

One of my favorite performers is Enzo Dara. Every production I see him in, I stop and watch with great interest. He does take over the stage and plays to the crowd and stays in character. I love this guy!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

OperaJelle said:


> I'm trying to dispute you on this... But find it difficult i think you are maybe right on this one. But still having problems with your example. Obviously the conductor wanted Gedda to sing that way and its actually harder also in my opinion. I don't find it attractive i also like a more florid approach. But i do agree Gedda isn't the best florid singer i think his voice was simply too powerful.
> 
> Regarding the topic i have to say Pavarotti is my favorite... He produces such pure sound its overwhelming.


People seem to think now that a heavier, more powerful voice faces greater difficulties in florid music- perhaps they are right, but old records show us big-voiced singers who also had virtuoso abilities (at least by the standards of today), so it can't be impossible. The second link shows that a powerful tenor can sing coloratura cleanly... and Affre sang Ruodi as well as Arnold, and made a nice record of 'Accours dans ma nacelle' with the same baritone you can hear on 'Ah, Mathilde'. Gedda's voice sits similarly between lyric and heroic, but it sounds like he never learned to use it well enough to sing that repertoire well, which is a pity.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I've never heard him attempt florid music. Interesting. In any case, *he did very well what he normally did, which was quite a lot.*


Agreed, and we're lucky he recorded so much!


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

If I was a young tenor and could have the career of Pavarotti or Domingo, I would go with Domingo. The guy has sung everything and Pavarotti ending up singing with dead people.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I never understood people who think Domingo is a misplaced baritone/sounded like a baritone. he sounds obviously tenor to me.


Domingo's tenor may be described as more 'baritone' than some. But it is a true tenor. That's why his recent attempts to sing baritone roles are not very successful. He sounds too much like a tenor.


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## Solitudine (Aug 6, 2021)

In terms of vocal technique, Pavarotti is much better than Domingo. Domingo did not experience formal study, so his technique has always been flawed. However, Domingo's artistic cultivation and stage performance ability are more prominent


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I don`t really have a horse in this race but I have a feeling that the results of this poll would be entirely different if the poll was created within the last couple of years.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

To me Domingo is the more versatile singer/musician/actor but based purely on vocal quality, Pavarotti.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Domingo every day of the week and twice on Sundays. His voice had a richness about it which, Pavarotti's other qualities notwithstanding, I never heard him match.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pavarotti bowls me over more with the beauty of his singing, but Domingo is leader of the pack in many roles Pav can't sing. When comparing them in the same role I tend to prefer Pav but recordings are not the same thing as live. Domingo was a better actor so live could make a difference and had a much bigger voice. Domingo was such an icky person as it turns out it has colored some of my enjoyment. Of the two I have only heard Domingo in a dreadful production I walked out of... An American Ring. I can't vote... too many variables. Pavarotti has the more beautiful voice by far to me. I have other tenors I prefer.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Neither is an especial favorite of mine, though both do well in certain roles. I can't think of a role in which I don't like somebody else better, though.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I was surprised I did not comment on this thread. Voice-wise, Pavarotti’s voice was a superior instrument - beautiful, steady, golden, even, Italianate, good top (comfortably to high D), artistically used in his early prime as was Domingo’s in most of his tenorial career. Domingo’s jealousy of Pavarotti’s fame (thanks to his ruthless publicist) lead him to hire his own publicist to seek ubiquity (no more Mr. Nice Guy). When he heard of Pavarotti’s remuneration for The Three Tenors, he demanded to be similarly recompensed and an increased share of the sale of the CDs - the CD was a huge seller, and both Pavarotti and Domingo sold many tickets in any opera house they chose to grace. 

I prefer many voices to Domingo’s, including both his colleagues in The Three Tenors, as well as Aragall, Shicoff, Alagna, Villazon, Wunderlich. Above all of these, Corelli’s voice reigns supreme, especially in his choice roles; Manrico, Cavaradossi, Chenier, Don Carlo, Alvaro. 

In this thread, though, I’d prefer Pavarotti at his best over Domingo, without all the hype.

Addition: I inadvertently hit the wrong button and voted for the other guy…$&*#@


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Domingo for the totality of his art, Pavarotti for Silver Age vocalism on some of his earliest recordings. But I don't go to either for the best performance of anything. For the purposes of this poll, Domingo.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I’ve seen both a few times. Pav was a real stand and deliver singer - the most acting you would get from him was that he would move his hands apart at crescendos. His voice, silvery, was always wonderful - he didn’t need to act with his body, he could act with his voice. 

Domingo could be amazing, unforgettable. But often he came across as a very professional singer, but not inspiring. 

I vote Pav. Except I haven’t voted . . .


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Pavarotti. By a country mile. 

Beauty, soulful and power.

Of course Beniamino Gigli and Jussi Bjorling were another kettle of fish .....


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Domingo for me. I have never cared for Pavarotti. It is the voice, many tenors grate on my ear, including Florez.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Domingo for the totality of art, Pavarotti for Silver Age vocalism on some of his earliest recordings. But I don't go to either for the best performance of anything. For the purposes of this poll, Domingo.


In my youth and theirs, I saw both often in San Francisco. They were satisfying in the theater, but their records stayed on my shelves until I got rid of them.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

If i were English...

Well, many things would be different

but I'd say chalk and cheese (wonder if I know what that means:lol

But for memorable moments, the big P. The start of the sextet on the Sutherland Lucia, all of the Boheme with HvK, phrases like "bimba dagli occhi pieni de malia" from Butterfly, unforgettable, unforgettable beauty, the sense of the language as great as any singer I know.

Less of that from Domingo, as good as some of his Otellos, I hear an entirely different character from del Monaco on the Japanese film, more of the words in a very subtle way, and who would have tagged del Monaco for subtlety first?
I do love his Rinuccio on the Maazel Trittico. Otherwise, sorry, a bit workman like with a great voice. And I think he sings sharp quite a bit because I think the voice is even less natural in the tenor range, but he overcomes that with skill.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Pavarotti, for me. His publicist Herbert Breslin had a pretty good line:

"Nobody in the tenor world has Luciano's sound, that Italian sound [...] Domingo would have to go pray in 17 churches in Guadalajara to find that sound."


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