# What style do you compose in?



## godzillaviolist

hello, 
Style of composition is something that has been on my mind recently. My own style varies a lot, starting out when I first tried my hand at composing three years ago tonal, then heading towards modal, now tonal/polytonal mix. I'm writing a quartet at the moment where three movements are polytonal, one is roughly modal and one varies between pentatonicism and pantonality. I'm not sure where I'll go next, because my opinions change faster than I can write music. I must say that a few months ago I started listening extensively to pantonal period music by the second viennese school and it's really influenced me a lot. I'm not attracted by serialism at the moment however.
So, how are the other composers here composing?


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## vivaciouswagnerian

Currently I am working on finishing an a capella SSSAAATTTBBB mass setting. I mostly follow tonal ideas but when I feel I need to adjust I let it. To be a successful composer, just like any other art, i believe, you need to follow exlusively where your heart leads you. I just finished a song cycle based on the struggles of an immigrant when they first come to America and experience the difference in culture. To add to the questions already presented in the former post, I would also like to to add my own. Any choral/solo voice composers this is for you. I have been struggling to find a good outlet of poems to set to score. I have been trying to use amatuer poems (less copyright stress and its nice to have someone email you asking you to use your poem), but that is becoming more stressful in that the poems dont have the depth I'm looking for now. If anyone has any ideas...


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## godzillaviolist

> Any choral/solo voice composers this is for you. I have been struggling to find a good outlet of poems to set to score. I have been trying to use amatuer poems (less copyright stress and its nice to have someone email you asking you to use your poem), but that is becoming more stressful in that the poems dont have the depth I'm looking for now. If anyone has any ideas...


 Yes, it seems powerfull emotions are out of fashion today- far too many poems out there about doing the dishes or watering the plants!
If I were you, I go looking for poetry forums, groups ect. online. These tend to contain tons of new poems flooding in everyday. Not all the poems will be good, but you never know, you just may spot the Goethe that makes you the next Schubert


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## vivaciouswagnerian

> Not all the poems will be good, but you never know, you just may spot the Goethe that makes you the next Schubert


New poetry afterall is the future. I'm part of one group (fictionpress.com), very nice poetry, but I think I'll branch out. (Your comment is hilarious!  ) Do you know of any specific forums that come to mind?


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## godzillaviolist

I must admit I haven't yet looked through poetry forums online a lot, but I found that yahoo has quite a few groups devoted to poetry. I'll look around tommorow and see what I can find- after all, though art song isn't an interest for me at the moment, it's always good to have resources at hand.


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## Daniel

vivaciouswagnerian said:


> i believe, you need to follow exlusively where your heart leads you.


Well said! And my heard leaded me tonal compositions, because my feeling of so many "modern" music is the development to noise not to music, the development of brain as receiver not heart, I mean, you need instructions to a work to understand it, if I listen to some music it really really hurts me worst though I try to understand it. Experiments which can be interesting, yes, but heart enriching music I must say no. And there I follow my heart. Tonal music is not at a point of ending for me, it is a convinction.

Greetings,
Daniel


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## godzillaviolist

From what period would you class music as noise? Starting from Wagner-Debussy explorations of the 19th century, from the Stravinsky-Schoenberg leap into modernism or from mid the twentieth century Avante Garde on?


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## vivaciouswagnerian

godzillaviolist said:


> From what period would you class music as noise? Starting from Wagner-Debussy explorations of the 19th century, from the Stravinsky-Schoenberg leap into modernism or from mid the twentieth century Avante Garde on?


I truly think that depends on one's taste (if I'm looking at your question right). I am currently reading a very interesting book called "Einstein's Violin: A Conductors Notes on Music, Physics, and Social Change" where he has begun to analyse what makes music MUSIC. Anways, he says that art in general but music specifically is a representation of what culture is experiencing (even to the point of semi-accepting rap, although I dont know if I'd go that far). So I mean, bororqeians (sp?) had little stress that our modern world contains and therefore their music expresses simplicity. Wagner *swoon* took his feelings (i.e. expressing your feelings and the realistic view on society rather than sticking with "traditions") and presented them unrestrained. Jumping ahead to Stravinsky. He said himself that he feels music can not present a feeling, and if it does its only the illusion of one. But anyone who has heard his Rite of Spring can not deny there are feelings there. WOW I went on a rant, sorry. So case-in-point, personally, I dont think any music henceforth is just noise. A composer has expressed himself or his beliefs using sound, and isnt that the whole point of music?

Oh my God, I just saw your quote Daniel in Einsteins Violin, I had missed it. Now I feel stupid for ranting about a book ya'll have probably already read


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## Daniel

godzillaviolist said:


> From what period would you class music as noise? Starting from Wagner-Debussy explorations of the 19th century, from the Stravinsky-Schoenberg leap into modernism or from mid the twentieth century Avante Garde on?


Difficult to answer. Actually I must agree with vivaciouswagnerian that probably many of today's composers express their feelings, but the effect it has on me is noise. A composer can also express noise! Does expressing feelings mean expressing music? You can express also "sounds". Maybe this is a better expression. So this is going to be the general question "What is music?".

But I think everyone agrees that serious music of our days (besides of any style) is mostly having dissonances, no consonances (if we talk about avant garde...).

For me it is against my convinction to let dissonances be dissonances...never or almost never solving them. 
If you are religious you can understand it maybe better what I mean. It is a question of beauty and artificial beauty. To form up beauty (which is going to be solving dissonances to consonances) is for me natural. And that's why lots of modern's music is against my own ideas.



vivaciouswagner said:


> I just saw your quote Daniel in Einsteins Violin, I had missed it. Now I feel stupid for ranting about a book ya'll have probably already read


I must say: I haven't read it. *blushing*

I finished the Wagner biography, and the effect was: after I haven't found any good "key" to enter Wagner's music-world, I am now curious what I will explore! I will keep you up to date.

All the best,
Daniel


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## vivaciouswagnerian

I'm so happy you are starting in Wagner, he is quite an experience. He inspired many (hint hint Mahler *swoon* hehe)



> It is a question of beauty and artificial beauty. To form up beauty (which is going to be solving dissonances to consonances) is for me natural. And that's why lots of modern's music is against my own ideas.


I dont know if I'd call unresolved dissonance "artificial beauty". I agree completely with the classical idea is that all dissonance resolves, tension release, ect. I dont know if your familiar with a composer by the name of Eric Whitacre (www.ericwhitacre.com). He finds that some dissonances are just too beautiful to resolve and I agree. I do, however, have a limit , but dissonance, i think, just characterizes the frustration we as a society are going through.


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## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> Difficult to answer. Actually I must agree with vivaciouswagnerian that probably many of today's composers express their feelings, but the effect it has on me is noise. A composer can also express noise! Does expressing feelings mean expressing music? You can express also "sounds". Maybe this is a better expression. So this is going to be the general question "What is music?".


 I know it sounds odd, but I really believe one has to learn how to hear dissonant music. I used to hate dissonant music with a passion, and I didn't understand why twentieth century composers used it so frequently. In fact I'd say I was probably more musically conservative than you, as I found most Romantic music written after about 1860 too dissonant for my tastes, including most Brahms. Dissonance gave me a strong feeling of physical illness, of nausea.
But about a year and a half ago I started listening to more dissonant music, something which was triggered by listening to Strauss' Burleske. You see when I first listened to it, I found almost painfully dissonant, but after several listenings the dissonance turned from unpleasant to beautifull and colourfull. My thought was "If this happened in this peice, what about others?" And gradually through late romanticism into modernism and beyond, I started to really enjoy dissonant and atonal music. You might think this means I lost my sensitivity to music, but that is not the case. I appreciate music of the past far more now than I ever could have before. For example, just today I was playing Hadyn duet with my teacher and I suddenly realised just how great a composer he was.



> *Daniel:*
> But I think everyone agrees that serious music of our days (besides of any style) is mostly having dissonances, no consonances (if we talk about avant garde...).


 I can't think of any composer who never uses consonances. There may be one, but I have never heard them before.



> *Daniel:*
> For me it is against my convinction to let dissonances be dissonances...never or almost never solving them.
> If you are religious you can understand it maybe better what I mean. It is a question of beauty and artificial beauty. To form up beauty (which is going to be solving dissonances to consonances) is for me natural. And that's why lots of modern's music is against my own ideas.


 I find that dissonance _is_ a natural form of beauty, whether it's resolved or not. Also, dissonance is phenomena of perspective. Minor chords, for instance, used to be consdered dissonances.
Godzilla


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## vivaciouswagnerian

I couldn't have said it better. The past rocks and the future has potential hehe.


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## Daniel

vivaciouswagnerian said:


> but dissonance, i think, just characterizes the frustration we as a society are going through.


Maybe, but I think our society is not only frustration today. And for myself I am an optimistic thinking person and want to show this in my compositions. If you just stay in dissonances it is a status not a progress, which I want to reach in my works.



godzillaviolist said:


> I know it sounds odd, but I really believe one has to learn how to hear dissonant music. I used to hate dissonant music with a passion, and I didn't understand why twentieth century composers used it so frequently. In fact I'd say I was probably more musically conservative than you, as I found most Romantic music written after about 1860 too dissonant for my tastes, including most Brahms. Dissonance gave me a strong feeling of physical illness, of nausea.


I think we humans are born we a natural feeling for harmony - disharmony. You have to find this feeling! And I don't agree if you would say "the classical harmony-feeling is trained on". It is natural, and we have to live natural (yes sounds very stoic).
For me Brahms is not dissonante at all. I am not against dissonances, to clear that up. The way _how_ to handle dissonances, that is important! 


godzillaviolist said:


> I can't think of any composer who never uses consonances. There may be one, but I have never heard them before.


I said "mostly" .


godzillaviolist said:


> I find that dissonance is a natural form of beauty, whether it's resolved or not. Also, dissonance is phenomena of perspective. Minor chords, for instance, used to be consdered dissonances.
> Godzilla


Logical dissonances yes. But would you agree that most dissonances are not solved? If not give me some examples, so I could have an "ear" on. Do we have to live in such a pessimistic thinking generation? It is up to us to change that. Also with music.

So far,
Daniel 

P.S. @vivaciouswagneriana and all: What do you think about Siegfried Wagner's music? I borrowed 2 CDs yesterday and I am curious how his music will sound. Wagnerian?


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## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:* I think we humans are born we a natural feeling for harmony - disharmony. You have to find this feeling!


 I _already have_ that feeling. It is a feeling, but a feeling that has now been _ informed_ by experience.



> *Daniel:* And I don't agree if you would say "the classical harmony-feeling is trained on". It is natural, and we have to live natural (yes sounds very stoic).


 But you are not arguing for what is _natural_ but what is _traditional_. Our lives are not "natural" in the sense that we live in a world we have created. If we used nature's rules for music, we would only have nature's music; raindrops, wind in the trees, thunder ect.
Now, can you honestly imagine something so bizzare and unnatural as a piano existing in nature?  
Also the sense of classical harmony is not inborn; perhaps you feel that way because you grew up surrounded by it and thus don't have a conscious memory of imbibing it. Classical harmony only became stable around 1700 and stopped becoming so around 1900; two hundred years in the thousands of years of human history. Hardly enough time for our ears to have evolved to suit it. And that's only in the west; Indian music is very different from Western music both in structure and harmony. Nearly all the folk musics of the world have unresolved dissonances that seem perfectly satisfactory to their ears. And that folk music often predates all the masters of classical harmony.



> *Daniel:* The way _how_ to handle dissonances, that is important!


But modern composers are adepts at handling dissonance, and you just have to listen to their works to know that.



> *Daniel:*
> Logical dissonances yes. But would you agree that most dissonances are not solved?


Not solved in the traditional way, but you were reffering to them never having any consonances _at all_.



> *Daniel:*
> If not give me some examples, so I could have an "ear" on.


 Could you tell me some of the modern works you've listened to? If I knew that, I think I could better understand where you are coming from ( for example; Penderecki's threnody is a world apart from Stravinsky's Sacre ).



> *Daniel:*
> Do we have to live in such a pessimistic thinking generation?


 I can't really say that I'm from a pessimistic generation. Most people I know are optimists. But I'd hardly blame dead modernist composers for unhappy people.



> *Daniel:*
> It is up to us to change that. Also with music.


I hate to be harsh, but writing music in tonal idiom is unlikely to change people's moods. Unless of course what's getting them down is someone playing Boulez twenty-four hours a day.  
It may come as a suprise to you, but dissonant music doesn't make me grim, it can even make me happy  I often listening to Scriabin to cheer myself up, and Prokofiev can always brighten my day and relax me.

Ears intact and functional,

godzilla


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## Daniel

Ok ,

First of all: a nice, controverse and constructive topic!


godzillaviolist said:


> But you are not arguing for what is _natural_ but what is _traditional_. Our lives are not "natural" in the sense that we live in a world we have created. If we used nature's rules for music, we would only have nature's music; raindrops, wind in the trees, thunder ect.
> Now, can you honestly imagine something so bizzare and unnatural as a piano existing in nature?


I am not! I am writing abut natural feelings. What you describe are natural sounds and of course kind of music. But this is physical nature. Natural is what way the natural rules go. Difficult to describe (especially because here I feel my English vocabulary limitated). You can describe emotions, feelings, behaviors in music. Any motion is sound or music. And you are like one filtering out of this "flow" of life. You concentrate it on a paper and - express your idea! But you didn't "create" it, it is what you made of existing material, like a focus. What is the intension do you have? This are personal questions, and any composer finds his own answer. I respect them all. 


godzillaviolist said:


> Also the sense of classical harmony is not inborn; perhaps you feel that way because you grew up surrounded by it and thus don't have a conscious memory of imbibing it. Classical harmony only became stable around 1700 and stopped becoming so around 1900; two hundred years in the thousands of years of human history.


I disagree. It is inborn, but sometimes hard to find. Maybe if you grow up with only dissonant music for example, I am completly sure you'll find it "normal", but I am also completly sure, that you destroy the human soul and sensitivity. 
Disharmony remains disharmony, harmony remains harmony. Consonance remains consonance, dissonance remains dissonance. This are facts, you cannot change it. And for me life is they way to reach harmony. So it is definately logical to go for harmony. That it can be a way with dissonances also, which are cleared up, is included.
And another thing, I can understand the way how music went, but do I have to follow the time, if it is absolutlely against my convinction? No!



godzillaviolist said:


> Not solved in the traditional way, but you were reffering to them never having any consonances _at all_.


 I must repeat: I said "mostly" not "only".



godzillaviolist said:


> Could you tell me some of the modern works you've listened to? If I knew that, I think I could better understand where you are coming from ( for example; Penderecki's threnody is a world apart from Stravinsky's Sacre ).


 Some works which I have been listened to or in exerpts:
Ligeti: work with sounds and voices (Don't remember the title)
Rautavaara: Etude (this is very interesting)
Stockhausen: Song of the youths
Some works by German Professors (mostly atonal)
Schönberg
Rihm: a piano piece; or so
Berg or Webern
Höller: organ piece (if I remember the name right)
...

Yes many of "older" avant garde, but the problem I do have in many works is: It hurts me so much, that I must turn off the sound.

Another question I want to ask you all: Is _any_ music worth to listen to?



godzillaviolist said:


> But I'd hardly blame dead modernist composers for unhappy people.


 I didn't mean that. For many composers music can be kind of a therapy in writing, if you understand what I mean.



godzillaviolist said:


> I hate to be harsh, but writing music in tonal idiom is unlikely to change people's moods. Unless of course what's getting them down is someone playing Boulez twenty-four hours a day.
> It may come as a suprise to you, but dissonant music doesn't make me grim, it can even make me happy  I often listening to Scriabin to cheer myself up, and Prokofiev can always brighten my day and relax me.


It comes up that things are a question of taste (which sounds very general, but one cannot change it). You can change moods with tonal music, definately! (yes difficult to argue here, because one says yes, the other one no)

For my inner belief many music of our days (I say many, I don't generalize it) is writing more for the brain as for the heart of listeners.

From a sunny Germany
Daniel


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## vivaciouswagnerian

Wow, I go away for half a day and I miss an entire conversatation hello again! 



> You concentrate it on a paper and - express your idea! But you didn't "create" it, it is what you made of existing material, like a focus.


I completely agree that all sound is already in existance and that we, as composers, are merely reaching into that infinate expanse of sound to create music. However, why can't one express an idea of frustration, fear, death. Modernist views believe in the power of dissonance to create an idea of hatred.



> It may come as a suprise to you, but dissonant music doesn't make me grim, it can even make me happy


My heart is to ya! I love to listen to a good Mahler symphony to cheer me up.



> It hurts me so much, that I must turn off the sound.
> 
> Another question I want to ask you all: Is any music worth to listen to?


I do believe in the power of music and I do believe that it can hurt someone. No one is safe from music's power, however, I dont believe that any, regardless of modernness or dissonance can destroy a human soul. Music is an expression regardless of whether its expirimental or true form. I think rather than painful "noise" it comes down to taste and maybe a closed mind (no offense is made, its the only way I could put it).



> For my inner belief many music of our days (I say many, I don't generalize it) is writing more for the brain as for the heart of listeners.


There has been tons of debate on this very topic. Many felt that Mahler's and Wagner's music was completely done for show, for a show of technique, skill, and form. While visible on a score it looks to be just that, if you listen and understand what the composer was trying to get across, you can MAKE it part of the heart.
Also, my dad majored in electronic composition and I hate his music . Maybe hate is a strong word, but because I dont understand the formulas ect. it seems like "noise". But I know it has a purpose, and somewhere deep it has meaning for someone, it was thought up wasn't it? I feel we need to appreciate wherever music is going and keep an open mind on the possibilites and know that Beetoven is always there for us in the worst case  .



> What do you think about Siegfried Wagner's music? I borrowed 2 CDs yesterday and I am curious how his music will sound. Wagnerian?


I am so happy that you are interested in Wagner. That is what the term Wagnerian is rooted in. I dont know, seeing as to where are conversations have been going, if you'll like it. I think he is a genious and he revolutionized the idea of color painting for a new society. He is not dissonance to the point you would find it 'noise' and if you look at his programme's and histories you'll see that he lead a revolutionary life and inspired so many. Dont get me started 

Much love, and I'm glad SOMEONE is this crazy world cares about music!


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## Daniel

Hello again,

While I write this I put on Siegfried Wagner. Beginning with his Concerto for Violin with Orchestral Accompaniment. A slow and wonderful introduction so far.


vivaciouswagnerian said:


> I do believe in the power of music and I do believe that it can hurt someone. No one is safe from music's power, however, I dont believe that any, regardless of modernness or dissonance can destroy a human soul. Music is an expression regardless of whether its expirimental or true form. I think rather than painful "noise" it comes down to taste and maybe a closed mind (no offense is made, its the only way I could put it).


If you define a closed mind as a mind with principles then yes . I think this world need rules, not anarchy. And it comes out to a new (general) question: Is there a "right" and a "wrong" music? Can music go "wrong"? Can it follow a planned "right" way? This is a religious question! Everyone has to answer it for her/himself.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> But I know it has a purpose, and somewhere deep it has meaning for someone, it was thought up wasn't it?


I respect the music if it means something to someone and helps him or often the composer her/himself.


vivaciouswagnerian said:


> Dont get me started


We'll start a new thread in another section of the forum, won't we? 

All the best,
Daniel


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## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> First of all: a nice, controverse and constructive topic!


 Yes, it's good fun, isn't it? 



> *Daniel:*
> I am not! I am writing abut natural feelings. What you describe are natural sounds and of course kind of music. But this is physical nature. Natural is what way the natural rules go. Difficult to describe (especially because here I feel my English vocabulary limitated).


 Don't worry about it, I understand what you're saying. What I was saying is that natural rules aren't really natural at all, but human creations. We think they're natural only because we're used to them.



> *Daniel:*
> You can describe emotions, feelings, behaviors in music. Any motion is sound or music. And you are like one filtering out of this "flow" of life. You concentrate it on a paper and - express your idea! But you didn't "create" it, it is what you made of existing material, like a focus. What is the intension do you have? This are personal questions, and any composer finds his own answer. I respect them all.


I agree with that. Which is yet another reason modernism is an acceptable form of musical expression. Nearly all of it is based on the past to some degree; modernism is not a break from the past but a continuation from it.



> *Daniel:*
> I disagree. It is inborn, but sometimes hard to find. Maybe if you grow up with only dissonant music for example, I am completly sure you'll find it "normal", but I am also completly sure, that you destroy the human soul and sensitivity.


 Okay... so are you saying anyone who didn't grow up with tonal classical music written from 1700-1900 doesn't have a soul or sensitivity?



> *Daniel:*
> Disharmony remains disharmony, harmony remains harmony. Consonance remains consonance, dissonance remains dissonance. This are facts, you cannot change it.


 But they are relative to the person hearing them. I will use the example of the minor triad again; it used to be considered dissonance, but now it's a consonance. So ending a piece on a minor chord would be _ ending it on an unresolved dissonance.
_



> *Daniel:*
> Some works which I have been listened to or in exerpts:
> Ligeti: work with sounds and voices (Don't remember the title)
> Rautavaara: Etude (this is very interesting)
> Stockhausen: Song of the youths
> Some works by German Professors (mostly atonal)
> Schönberg
> Rihm: a piano piece; or so
> Berg or Webern
> Höller: organ piece (if I remember the name right)
> ...
> 
> Yes many of "older" avant garde, but the problem I do have in many works is: It hurts me so much, that I must turn off the sound.


 I must admit I have never listened to Stockhausen, Holler, Rihm, Rautavaara or Ligeti. So I can't really judge them as composers. 
Schoenberg; what peices? I strongly recommend you listen to Gurrelieder, and Transfigured night ( prefferably the string sextet version- I really would like want to play that! ). Those will give an idea of what the composer was capable of in a tonal idiom, and that might might pique your curiousity about later works.
Berg and Webern... well, they're on the harsher side of modernism, it takes a lot of time to appreciate them.
I'm getting an idea of what you think modernism is.
But you should at least give modern music a chance. You have to learn how to hear it the way one would learn how to ride a bycycle; jumping of the bycycle every few seconds is not going to teach you how to ride  
Here is a list of "modern" compositions that I can honestly say this; if you can listen to them several times and not find beauty, then we'll just agree to disagree. I'll rate them in order of harshness:

Holst's the Planets ( Romantic but full of modern ideas ).
Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe ( or the suites from it ).
Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet.
Scriabin's Poem of exctasy.
Stravinsky's Rite of spring.

For the last two I reccomend a truly wonderfull disc that has both on it, conducted by Gergiev. 
Now listen to them _several times_ with an _open mind_ . That means not sitting there expecting to hate them. If you still hate modern music after that, then I'll agree to listen to any kind of music you think will give me my soul back 



> *Daniel:*
> Another question I want to ask you all: Is _any_ music worth to listen to?


 Yes.



> *Daniel:*
> For my inner belief many music of our days (I say many, I don't generalize it) is writing more for the brain as for the heart of listeners.


I'd say that the majority of composers write for both. I'd even be willing to say they often write more for the heart than the head ( Berg comes to mind ).

Godzilla,

Listening to Scriabin as I write


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## Daniel

Another day, another debate. (still sunny here)



godzillaviolist said:


> Yes, it's good fun, isn't it?


Yes. 



godzillaviolist said:


> Okay... so are you saying anyone who didn't grow up with tonal classical music written from 1700-1900 doesn't have a soul or sensitivity?


Not exactly, but it has an influence on a personality.

Very interesting by the way: With musical taste you cannot hide anywhere. If someone tells you what music he likes to listen to, it says so much about hers/his personality. Music is such a direct language.



godzillaviolist said:


> But they are relative to the person hearing them. I will use the example of the minor triad again; it used to be considered dissonance, but now it's a consonance. So ending a piece on a minor chord would be _ ending it on an unresolved dissonance._


I agree with you that there is development and mind changes. But must every change be good? I say no.



godzillaviolist said:


> Schoenberg; what peices? I strongly recommend you listen to Gurrelieder, and Transfigured night ( prefferably the string sextet version- I really would like want to play that! ). Those will give an idea of what the composer was capable of in a tonal idiom, and that might might pique your curiousity about later works.


It was an excerpt out of Pierrot lunaire, but some time ago. Maybe I will have another look on it. My piano teacher played me once I think the beginning of the Gurrelieder, where a wide wide "field" of sound is starting and getting fuller and fuller. This was impressive.


godzillaviolist said:


> Berg and Webern... well, they're on the harsher side of modernism, it takes a lot of time to appreciate them.
> I'm getting an idea of what you think modernism is.
> But you should at least give modern music a chance. You have to learn how to hear it the way one would learn how to ride a bycycle; jumping of the bycycle every few seconds is not going to teach you how to ride


I don't think all modern music is "bad" or something. With some developments in history, I just disagree! There is also music I like! And it is the duty of any musician and composer to get an impression of music history and build up an own mind....and! to go so ahead how his heart leads her/him and to live his principles.

Thanks for the list


godzillaviolist said:


> Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet.


 I know the dance of the knights. 


godzillaviolist said:


> Scriabin's Poem of exctasy.


 I am not Scriabin expert but heard also some piano music on stage not so long ago (with Volodos). It is ok, but not my special taste.



godzillaviolist said:


> For the last two I reccomend a truly wonderfull disc that has both on it, conducted by Gergiev.


I will try to listen to it.


godzillaviolist said:


> Now listen to them _several times_ with an _open mind_ . That means not sitting there expecting to hate them. If you still hate modern music after that,


I listen always with an open mind! And I don't hate modern music. Some is not my natural as I tried to explain.



godzillaviolist said:


> ...then I'll agree to listen to any kind of music you think will give me my soul back


I didn't mean that :-(.



godzillaviolist said:


> Listening to Scriabin as I write


So what exactly? ;-)

It is morning here...ok some minutes past ten ;-). I will go practising very soon.

See you later,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *daniel:*Another day, another debate. (still sunny here)


It's nearly always sunny in summer where I am. There are already forest fire warnings around the city, though this year has been suprisingly rainy compared with the last.



> *daniel:*
> Not exactly, but it has an influence on a personality.


 I've noticed a slight corrospondance in terms of politics, but not in personality. I've met grim and happy avant garde lovers.



> *daniel:*
> Very interesting by the way: With musical taste you cannot hide anywhere. If someone tells you what music he likes to listen to, it says so much about hers/his personality. Music is such a direct language.


 I'm wondering what we must think about each other  . I geuss one might have to be carefull of John Cage fans- they might steal your car and call it art!  
But I do know what you mean. For some reason I have never gotten along with people who were adamant fans of Debussy ( I like some Debussy, but not a lot ).



> *daniel:*
> I agree with you that there is development and mind changes. But must every change be good? I say no.


 But I'm not talking about movements; I'm talking about individual composers. Also, modernism you really do have to learn how to hear, and give it a try for a couple of times.



> *daniel:*
> It was an excerpt out of Pierrot lunaire, but some time ago. Maybe I will have another look on it. My piano teacher played me once I think the beginning of the Gurrelieder, where a wide wide "field" of sound is starting and getting fuller and fuller. This was impressive.


 You should hear how incredible the opening and ending is with the huge orchestra giving it sonority! Though admitedly, I find the peice in general a bit hyper-Romantic for my tastes. Transfigured night has more control because it is confined to six instruments.
Next time you hear Pierott lunaire, think of it in terms of the setting; this man's out of his mind. The music is out of it's mind. 



> *daniel:*
> I know the dance of the knights.


 I have a funny reaction to it. My mother was always telling me how good it was when I was a kid but I thought it was stupid and cacophonous. It never seemed right until I listened to the whole ballet in context.



> *daniel:* I am not Scriabin expert but heard also some piano music on stage not so long ago (with Volodos). It is ok, but not my special taste.


 It all depends on the period; he changed a lot over time. Early works were Chopinesque... but then all hell broke loose and he decided he was god and wrote some good music at the same time.



> *daniel:*
> I listen always with an open mind! And I don't hate modern music. Some is not my natural as I tried to explain.


 I understand, perhaps it's just because I used to hate modern music so much until I gave it a good listen that I think the same might happen with other people too.



> *daniel:*
> It is morning here...ok some minutes past ten ;-). I will go practising very soon.


 Eeek! What am I doing up so late... oh well, nothing to do tommorow so I don't have to worry.

godzilla


----------



## Daniel

godzillaviolist said:


> It's nearly always sunny in summer where I am. There are already forest fire warnings around the city, though this year has been suprisingly rainy compared with the last.


What city is it, if I may ask? It is really warm here, you can call it hot...but we have such summer days...Once it was a very very warm summer...but back to the topic .


godzillaviolist said:


> I'm wondering what we must think about each other  .


I hope, you don't think I have a closed mind .



godzillaviolist said:


> Also, modernism you really do have to learn how to hear, and give it a try for a couple of times.


So would I have to learn to hear how a window can shut, and it will be art?


godzillaviolist said:


> You should hear how incredible the opening and ending is with the huge orchestra giving it sonority!


My piano-teacher played me the beginning on a CD with orchestra, and it was impressive. Like a big motion increasing and increasing, like a "sound-carpet"


godzillaviolist said:


> It all depends on the period; he changed a lot over time. Early works were Chopinesque... but then all hell broke loose and he decided he was god and wrote some good music at the same time.


I read he wanted to play only his own music...not to performe others, is that true?


godzillaviolist said:


> Eeek! What am I doing up so late... oh well, nothing to do tommorow so I don't have to worry.


Nothing to do? So you have vacations?

All the best,
Daniel


----------



## vivaciouswagnerian

Again I miss much good conversation (Maybe I should check up more often)



> Is there a "right" and a "wrong" music? Can music go "wrong"? Can it follow a planned "right" way? This is a religious question! Everyone has to answer it for her/himself.


I dont think there is, though by saying that I take a very radical position which I dont know if i want to enter  . I just think that music should be an emotional portryal of the composers intentions (whether or not it ever gets performed, though, is another story)



> Originally Posted by godzillaviolist
> Scriabin's Poem of exctasy.


I am entirely unfamilar with this peice, or composer for that matter. I am intrigued though. Anyone with the guts to write a peice of exctasy is good in my book. Please give me details.



> I hope, you don't think I have a closed mind .


I think I can speak for both of us that if you had a closed mind, then you would not be bringing up such good points . And I dont know about you, but its so refreshing to talk to knowlegable people on a controversial topic.



> So would I have to learn to hear how a window can shut, and it will be art?


though I can't speak for godzilla, i would have to say that i agree you must listen to moderistic peices many times before you begin to see the minut things in it. On a dramatic note (dont I love taking those ) my answer to your question would be, to an extent, yes. I am roughly refering to some expiremnts dealing with percussive machinery: Mossolov's Symphony of Machines-Steel Foundry and George Antheil's Ballet mecanique. Though both composers were unsucessful to get a wide acceptance of the works, it bring up an interesting point. If one person sees something as art, there HAS to be someone else who sees it, or can appreciate for what is is, as well. (To the point godzilla was trying to make though, I can not comment, I'll let him).

I guess since we're all talking about the weater, we just had a massive heatwave (110) and then suddenly a massive thunderstorm, so um.... its a pretty day outside at the moment but who knows what will come next.

PS. I really would reccomend, Daniel, listening to Wagner's operas, or at least parts of them. I truly think they are what show his true style.


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*What city is it, if I may ask? It is really warm here, you can call it hot...but we have such summer days...Once it was a very very warm summer...but back to the topic .


 Victoria, Canada. It's on the west coast, so it's climate is similar to england or northern france. We only ever get one or two days of snow a year, and it stays moderate in summer. The breeze keeps it cool... 2003 was really hot here as the breeze dropped away entirely.
I've never been to Germany, though I might end up there someday as there are simply more jobs in europe for musicians, and I have dual citizenship ( Uk and Canada ), so I have an E.U. passport 



> *Daniel:*
> I hope, you don't think I have a closed mind .


 Not at all. Most anti-modernists are people who listen to classical music as sweet sounding background music, so it's interesting to meet an anti-modernist who has a brain 



> *Daniel:*
> So would I have to learn to hear how a window can shut, and it will be art?


 Maybe. For me music means one thing; sound art. Art that you hear. 
An example of this would be an acoustic fountain they've installed in a park in this city. It is a stone placed so that water drips into a pool differently each time- so the sound of the drip changes as you listen. It is sound art of some sort, though not traditional, you could class it as music.



> *Daniel:*
> My piano-teacher played me the beginning on a CD with orchestra, and it was impressive. Like a big motion increasing and increasing, like a "sound-carpet"


From what I've read it's supposed to portray a sunset.



> *Daniel:*
> I read he wanted to play only his own music...not to performe others, is that true?


 Well, rather like Schumann ( when will pianists learn? ) Scriabin recked his fingers by trying to stretch them. That ended his plan to become a touring virtuoso, so he turned to composing instead. After that he played only his own music. Soon it became religious though; his music was going to save the world ( or so he thought ). He never finished the big piece that was going to do this, because he died from a big boil on his face



> *Daniel:*
> Nothing to do? So you have vacations?


 I'm eighteen, so yes, I still have vacations. That doesn't stop me from playing and trying to get to a point where I wont have many because I'll playing professionally 

Enjoying the summer,

Godzilla


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Wagnerian:*
> I am entirely unfamilar with this peice, or composer for that matter. I am intrigued though. Anyone with the guts to write a peice of exctasy is good in my book. Please give me details.


 It is a tone poem that is supposed to describe spiritual, artistic exctasy. Scriabin wrote a long boring poem to accompany the music, which everyone now sensibly ignores because the music is so good  . Scriabin went from tonality to atonality, and this piece, while mostly tonal, has some atonal bits. His atonality was different than Schoenberg's. Where as Schoenberg left tonality alltogether, Scriabin just made tonality so complex it lost it'smeaning. His tone poem Prometheus is in both C and F# major with C-F#-Bb-E-A-D as the binding chord  . Though the poem of extasy is more conservative than that, it's still my favorite tone poem of his.



> *Wagnerian:*
> though I can't speak for godzilla, i would have to say that i agree you must listen to moderistic peices many times before you begin to see the minut things in it. On a dramatic note (dont I love taking those ) my answer to your question would be, to an extent, yes. I am roughly refering to some expiremnts dealing with percussive machinery: Mossolov's Symphony of Machines-Steel Foundry and George Antheil's Ballet mecanique. Though both composers were unsucessful to get a wide acceptance of the works, it bring up an interesting point. If one person sees something as art, there HAS to be someone else who sees it, or can appreciate for what is is, as well. (To the point godzilla was trying to make though, I can not comment, I'll let him).


 All good points! I definetely agree.
Another point is that experimental music can add things to taditional music. I'm not a fan of John Cage. But he was eccentric enough to discover the "prepared piano" technique; something used extensively in a tonal piece I really love ( tabula rasa, by Avro Paart ).



> *Wagnerian:*
> PS. I really would reccomend, Daniel, listening to Wagner's operas, or at least parts of them. I truly think they are what show his true style.


I must admit I haven't listened to all of Wagners operas. But an orchestra extract from Parsifal made me curious; it was so subtle, nothing like the wagner I had heard before. So I'll be listening to more soon.

godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello here I am again ;-),



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> Again I miss much good conversation (Maybe I should check up more often)


The more often the better :-D.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> And I dont know about you, but its so refreshing to talk to knowlegable people on a controversial topic.





godzillaviolist said:


> Not at all. Most anti-modernists are people who listen to classical music as sweet sounding background music, so it's interesting to meet an anti-modernist who has a brain


Thank you. I remember having this discussion so often (I think you too). And it was getting me tired. But this is a fair and enriching discussion, so I am glad to have it!
And I am not against modernism, but against some developments where I want to live what my principles are.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> though I can't speak for godzilla, i would have to say that i agree you must listen to moderistic peices many times before you begin to see the minut things in it. On a dramatic note (dont I love taking those ) my answer to your question would be, to an extent, yes. I am roughly refering to some expiremnts dealing with percussive machinery: Mossolov's Symphony of Machines-Steel Foundry and George Antheil's Ballet mecanique. Though both composers were unsucessful to get a wide acceptance of the works, it bring up an interesting point. If one person sees something as art, there HAS to be someone else who sees it, or can appreciate for what is is, as well. (To the point godzilla was trying to make though, I can not comment, I'll let him).





godzillaviolist said:


> Maybe. For me music means one thing; sound art. Art that you hear.
> An example of this would be an acoustic fountain they've installed in a park in this city. It is a stone placed so that water drips into a pool differently each time- so the sound of the drip changes as you listen. It is sound art of some sort, though not traditional, you could class it as music.


You say experiments, and you are completely right! But I differ between experiments and music. Let's go to art. I think you all remember Duchamps? With his Ready-Make, the Urinal, he declared it as art, as with other objects, just putting it into an exhibition out of the normal background, and it was made to art.
Well, I think one have to be careful, or too many things will be art! So the name will get useless. If you just say art is what is out of the common and with the idea of making it something special or to art, it _would be_ art, you must pay attention. The meaning of art would go too wide! 
To go back to experiments and music... What is the difference? For me experiments are actions to try something out, like a way you go. Art (and it contains music) is a result, which you can feel inside. And one point which is different between "sounds" or experiments and music is also one special point: For me there exists a "magical" moment. This is not the right word, but maybe you understand what I mean. Take an easy example, Beethoven fifths. g g g eb___ , f f f d___. What is it? 8 notes. Nothing more if you just see it. But it is logical, it _has _to be this way! You feel this consequence. If there are other possibities, is not so important, the most important is the "magic" which is behind the notes.
For me music is the combinition of sense, beauty (because I like to go into the nature and see all the wonderful scenery we are allowed to have and see how beauty helps our souls....this sounds very pathetic I know), artificial ability and deep emotion and expression.
How everyone reacts on special musics, is another question and depends on everyone.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> I guess since we're all talking about the weater, we just had a massive heatwave (110) and then suddenly a massive thunderstorm, so um.... its a pretty day outside at the moment but who knows what will come next.


So would be nice to know where you are located also.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> PS. I really would reccomend, Daniel, listening to Wagner's operas, or at least parts of them. I truly think they are what show his true style.


I will definately do, because I really got curious because of this biographie .



godzillaviolist said:


> I'm eighteen, so yes, I still have vacations. That doesn't stop me from playing and trying to get to a point where I wont have many because I'll playing professionally


So what are you playing currently? And what are your plans for the time after the vacations?



godzillaviolist said:


> I must admit I haven't listened to all of Wagners operas. But an orchestra extract from Parsifal made me curious; it was so subtle, nothing like the wagner I had heard before. So I'll be listening to more soon.


So we can be sure to have a good mate (vivaciouswagnerian of course :-D) who will let us discover Wagner and will recommend us good recordings. :-D



godzillaviolist said:


> I've never been to Germany, though I might end up there someday as there are simply more jobs in europe for musicians, and I have dual citizenship ( Uk and Canada ), so I have an E.U. passport


I don't know if here are so many places. It is so hard to get in and to get a place. An exhausting business! I don't know how this things look in Canada though.
Till when you can keep this dual citizenship?

From a sunny Germany (around 36° or 96.8 F)
Daniel


----------



## vivaciouswagnerian

I am from Austin Texas, though at the moment I'm stuck in Fairfax Virginia, a nowhere place just outside of DC. This is where my beautiful college campus is located (I'm just glad the staff is better than the location).

Ok, I wont bother with the quote since its quite lenghthy, but the basic topic that is presented is where expirimental ends, and music begins. Though I believe that even expirimental is music on some level, I agree that there must be a line.



> If you just say art is what is out of the common and with the idea of making it something special or to art, it would be art, you must pay attention. The meaning of art would go too wide!


I dont mean to sound pessimistic, but I believe "popular" art has already gone "too wide." With hip hop and rap considered art, I believe that art has expanded past its originial definiton. Though I don't support hip hop or rap, I believe society moves as it moves. Music is an ever-flowing river, not a dried up stream. We can not stop where society takes it, although we may look to the past and find solace. The future is not grim, though. (sorry I took a little soap box stand there)

I think my point would be made better by looking to the past: Expirimental music has always existed. Beetoven's music was considered pop in his days, and many classicists thought him mad. Debussy was critisized for being absurd. Mahler was told that he was the "end of all music as we know it", though look what they have brought us. I believe we are all just so focused on the present (as were these critics) that we can't see where this music might take us. I dont agree with the utilities that some ultramodern composers use, but its all part of making music a lively and current thing.



> (because I like to go into the nature and see all the wonderful scenery we are allowed to have and see how beauty helps our souls....this sounds very pathetic I know)


Not at all. My passion is to look into nature and hear its music. However I also think that looking further, past nature, because there is so much more. The human element is so REAL especially today, that one can not ignore that there is music and beauty there. I dont think that I'd call that artificial.

I dont know if I preached too much and didn't answer what you needed, but I think I got my point across.

Ok, now I posted this in the other forum, but I want to please make possitive that the reference to my name is to RICHARD Wagner, not Seigfried, his son. Wagnerian's originated from the father, and to the extent that his son took it, I dont know.

I also didn't know that you were 18 godzilla, I must have missed that part of your post. I am as well. I'm on summer vacation and HATING it, just cause I'm soo bored without some perscribed vocal and choral literature. Only a month left......

Oh, one more thing, I almost forgot.
I would suggest not going to Germany for music at this time. Ever since 9/11 the German music scene has been very anti-American, for political reasons or otherwise. They have loaded their theatres with constant german opera not allowing any, or few, American recital or opera debut's. I'd love to go to Germany, but I'd wait for a couple more years (or whenever things start to calm down) before venturing that road. Facts mixed with my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt

Thank you all (by the way its raining again  )


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel*
> Thank you. I remember having this discussion so often (I think you too). And it was getting me tired. But this is a fair and enriching discussion, so I am glad to have it!


 Are you on the good music guide classical forum too? Have you seen the scary argument That's happening there? Frightening. I'm glad we're more civilised here.
I've had this debate often with other people, but mostly I was arguing from the side you are arguing from now.  Only on this forum and the other have I argued in the corner of modernism.



> *Daniel*
> You say experiments, and you are completely right! But I differ between experiments and music. Let's go to art. I think you all remember Duchamps? With his Ready-Make, the Urinal, he declared it as art, as with other objects, just putting it into an exhibition out of the normal background, and it was made to art.
> Well, I think one have to be careful, or too many things will be art! So the name will get useless. If you just say art is what is out of the common and with the idea of making it something special or to art, it _would be_ art, you must pay attention. The meaning of art would go too wide!


 But I believe that it is dangerous to put limitations on art. It may be comforting in the short term, but it's dangerous and stiffling in the long term. 
What I think we can do is decide what we think _good and bad _ art is. If dislike a piece of art, then we can consider it bad. But who are we to judge what art itself is?



> *Daniel*
> To go back to experiments and music... What is the difference? For me experiments are actions to try something out, like a way you go. Art (and it contains music) is a result, which you can feel inside. And one point which is different between "sounds" or experiments and music is also one special point: For me there exists a "magical" moment. This is not the right word, but maybe you understand what I mean. Take an easy example, Beethoven fifths. g g g eb___ , f f f d___. What is it? 8 notes. Nothing more if you just see it. But it is logical, it _has _to be this way! You feel this consequence. If there are other possibities, is not so important, the most important is the "magic" which is behind the notes.


 I find it funny that you use Beethoven as an example; if I had to name just one name in connection with modernism, it would be him. Nearly all modernism can be traced to his later experiments; Webern's music can be linked to Beethoven through this very tradtion of experimentation.



> *Daniel*
> For me music is the combinition of sense, beauty (because I like to go into the nature and see all the wonderful scenery we are allowed to have and see how beauty helps our souls....this sounds very pathetic I know), artificial ability and deep emotion and expression.
> How everyone reacts on special musics, is another question and depends on everyone.


 I geuss that is part of my point. To me, a lot of music is more emotionally intense due to greater dissonance and experimention.



> *Daniel*
> And what are your plans for the time after the vacations?


 Music, music, music! I'll devoting the next six months entirely to it. I know I have to make up for a lot of lost time ( I only started viola at age sixteen, so I'm not as advanced as most my age ). I'll be spending most of my days practicing viola and piano and studying theory.



> *Daniel*
> I don't know if here are so many places. It is so hard to get in and to get a place. An exhausting business! I don't know how this things look in Canada though.


Dire. Nearest job is two thousand miles away. It maybe hard in Germany, but there are simply _no jobs at all_ in Canada.



> *Daniel*
> Till when you can keep this dual citizenship?


Hopefully permanently.

Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello friends,



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> Music is an ever-flowing river, not a dried up stream. We can not stop where society takes it


No, but we don't have to follow the stream...and another question would be: is the definition "art" something done by people or is it something independent? Timeless?



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> The human element is so REAL especially today, that one can not ignore that there is music and beauty there. I dont think that I'd call that artificial.


Can you explain that? You think music and beauty are two different things? The term "artificial beauty" I use as a music which can tell you the deep suffering of a composer but in a "beautiful" musical form, not breaking out in structure or form like anarchy. This is artificial beauty for me.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> I dont know if I preached too much and didn't answer what you needed, but I think I got my point across.


You did!



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> Ok, now I posted this in the other forum, but I want to please make possitive that the reference to my name is to RICHARD Wagner, not Seigfried, his son. Wagnerian's originated from the father, and to the extent that his son took it, I dont know.


Yes, sure, if you say "Wagner" today you think of Richard Wagner. Actually his son's music is also worth to be listened to. Of course he had a heavy inheritance. But what I listened so far is well orchestrated, originally ideas and also humorful.



vivaciouswagnerian said:


> Oh, one more thing, I almost forgot.
> I would suggest not going to Germany for music at this time. Ever since 9/11 the German music scene has been very anti-American, for political reasons or otherwise. They have loaded their theatres with constant german opera not allowing any, or few, American recital or opera debut's. I'd love to go to Germany, but I'd wait for a couple more years (or whenever things start to calm down) before venturing that road. Facts mixed with my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt


9/11 anti-American in the German music scene? Where did you hear that?



godzillaviolist said:


> Are you on the good music guide classical forum too? Have you seen the scary argument That's happening there? Frightening. I'm glad we're more civilised here.
> I've had this debate often with other people, but mostly I was arguing from the side you are arguing from now.  Only on this forum and the other have I argued in the corner of modernism.


No, but I have been there after your post.... 
So is there any special event or music piece that let you change your mind?



godzillaviolist said:


> But I believe that it is dangerous to put limitations on art. It may be comforting in the short term, but it's dangerous and stiffling in the long term.
> What I think we can do is decide what we think _good and bad _ art is. If dislike a piece of art, then we can consider it bad. But who are we to judge what art itself is?


But if you don't have any limitations the definition will get to smooth and won't have any speciality. 
And yes you are right: WE cannot judge about itself! But so it is so complicated to talk about.


godzillaviolist said:


> Music, music, music! I'll devoting the next six months entirely to it. I know I have to make up for a lot of lost time ( I only started viola at age sixteen, so I'm not as advanced as most my age ). I'll be spending most of my days practicing viola and piano and studying theory.


You know Volodos started with really studying piano at the age of 15 or so. Before he focusized on voice, and now you can see what a phenomenical-pianist he became, so don't worry with viola. What kind of pieces are you working on currently? And what are your studying-plans, if I may ask?

Greetings,
Daniel 

P.S.: We had a great thunderstorm yesterday.


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> No, but we don't have to follow the stream...and another question would be: is the definition "art" something done by people or is it something independent? Timeless?


 I believe that since there are no timeless beings around to ask, we can assume that it's human. It may be human on a very high level, so it appears superhuman. It might span over generations, and so appear timeless. It may be greater than one individual, but it's still a human creation. I think humanity will have to live a few more millenia for us to truly understand.
I've always thought it was a great irony is that one of the oldest poems in existance complains that nothing human ever lasts 



> *Daniel:*Can you explain that? You think music and beauty are two different things? The term "artificial beauty" I use as a music which can tell you the deep suffering of a composer but in a "beautiful" musical form, not breaking out in structure or form like anarchy. This is artificial beauty for me.


 I'm not answering for Wagnerian here but giving my own take on the issue. 
There are two different forms of beauty in my opinion. There is what is pleasing to the senses, and what is emotionally and intellectually moving. 
Take the example of a very beautifull young woman and very ancient old woman. If we judge by the first kind of beauty, the young woman who pleases the eyes will be beautifull, the old woman ugly. Now when we judge by second kind, things become more complex. The young woman's features may have no character at all, or a very deep character. If she has character it might be revealed by her clothing, her facial expression and her movements. Now the old woman's character, it will be etched on to her features by time. The lines and wrinkles will tell you so much more about the old woman's character and life than the young woman. She will have had a different life, a different story than the young woman.
If we take the analogy further, we can compare it to music. Classical era would be the young woman- everything beautifull on the surface, sometimes of great depth, other times not. Still, the limitations are there; a young woman's cries, laughs and scowls will be softened by the beauty of her features. Now Modern music would be the old woman. There is little surface beauty left, and this affects the music greatly. When this old woman cries, laughs or scowls, her face cortorts with age and there is no boundary; we feel the emotions more intensely with nothing to soften them. 
Both can move us, but in different ways.
Does this make sense?



> *vivaciouswagnerian:*
> Oh, one more thing, I almost forgot.
> I would suggest not going to Germany for music at this time. Ever since 9/11 the German music scene has been very anti-American, for political reasons or otherwise. They have loaded their theatres with constant german opera not allowing any, or few, American recital or opera debut's. I'd love to go to Germany, but I'd wait for a couple more years (or whenever things start to calm down) before venturing that road. Facts mixed with my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt


 I'm not quite sure who you were aiming this at. I'm not an American, so how would this affect me?



> *daniel:*
> So is there any special event or music piece that let you change your mind?


 Though I'm stubborn ( as you already know  ), I'm also terribly curious. I used to have a CD titled "ten top sopranos". Now I would skip through the tracks I didn't like, but would always end up hearing the first few seconds. One of the tracks contained Birgitt Nilsson singing the opening monologue from Strauss' Elektra. I never liked it, but I heard the first few seconds a lot. I took the CD back to the library. Then after about a week I became completely obsessed with those few seconds. That huge upward rush of strings, that beautifull voice singing music filled with a kind of sorrow I had never known before in music. So I took the CD out again and listened to the track. It only got better! It was so very intense; like nothing I had ever known in music. I felt that this music could speak to a part of me that I hadn't known existed. It could fill me with tears, anger or unspeakable joy. That was how I first became interested in modern music. It was with the same, with all my other new musical "taste tests". All changed in my mind from hideous to immensely beauty. I hated the rite of spring, but it would not let go of my mind! The gothic symphony turned from a disaster scene to a catalogue of the human experience. Bartok went from sounding noisy to capturing the fire of the heart. And so on.
Sorry, it's late at night, and music really makes me emotional.


> *daniel:*
> What kind of pieces are you working on currently?


 Nothing good, mostly arrangements of Bach, Handel and other minor works, and of course a whole mountain of etudes. Don't worry, I'll post if I'm given something interesting to play 



> *daniel:*
> And what are your studying-plans, if I may ask?


 I'm going to stay in the conservatory till I get to an advanced enough level, then enter Camosun college's music program.

I walked up to the university today and counted thirty two rabbits, but the most I've ever counted on one walk was seventy-five. I'm not making this up,

Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

It's me again ,



godzillaviolist said:


> I believe that since there are no timeless beings around to ask, we can assume that it's human. It may be human on a very high level, so it appears superhuman. It might span over generations, and so appear timeless. It may be greater than one individual, but it's still a human creation. I think humanity will have to live a few more millenia for us to truly understand.
> I've always thought it was a great irony is that one of the oldest poems in existance complains that nothing human ever lasts


A religious or philosophic point. For me music is something timeless, and we are not real "creators", just transmitters. There was all material, we just put it new together, but actually we do it with the experience of our life, so the life is the "motor" of music. But we don't "create" anything out of nothing.



godzillaviolist said:


> I'm not answering for Wagnerian here but giving my own take on the issue.
> There are two different forms of beauty in my opinion. There is what is pleasing to the senses, and what is emotionally and intellectually moving.
> Take the example of a very beautifull young woman and very ancient old woman. If we judge by the first kind of beauty, the young woman who pleases the eyes will be beautifull, the old woman ugly. Now when we judge by second kind, things become more complex. The young woman's features may have no character at all, or a very deep character. If she has character it might be revealed by her clothing, her facial expression and her movements. Now the old woman's character, it will be etched on to her features by time. The lines and wrinkles will tell you so much more about the old woman's character and life than the young woman. She will have had a different life, a different story than the young woman.
> If we take the analogy further, we can compare it to music. Classical era would be the young woman- everything beautifull on the surface, sometimes of great depth, other times not. Still, the limitations are there; a young woman's cries, laughs and scowls will be softened by the beauty of her features. Now Modern music would be the old woman. There is little surface beauty left, and this affects the music greatly. When this old woman cries, laughs or scowls, her face cortorts with age and there is no boundary; we feel the emotions more intensely with nothing to soften them.
> Both can move us, but in different ways.
> Does this make sense?


A nice comparison, so I had to quote it all . But this comparison has one weak point: You generalize too much: Not all young women have superficial beauty, and not all old women just beauty inside. I would see this metaphoric in this way: A young woman (young music) is fresh with new ideas clear beauty. On her way the young woman had much to suffer but also pleasures to live...when she got old she has much experience and an inner-shining beauty. Same with music. 
BUT: this metaphoric must be made for every music piece how it was worked out, because the way of the woman might have also get frustrated, she is just sad and sad and life-tired just sees the world's uglyness. And such music can also be made. Or she gets sarcastic and ironic, or she just gets angry. And also the young woman can have so much experience for her age, or just be superficial. I hope you understand what I aim on.



godzillaviolist said:


> I felt that this music could speak to a part of me that I hadn't known existed. It could fill me with tears, anger or unspeakable joy. That was how I first became interested in modern music. It was with the same, with all my other new musical "taste tests". All changed in my mind from hideous to immensely beauty. I hated the rite of spring, but it would not let go of my mind! The gothic symphony turned from a disaster scene to a catalogue of the human experience. Bartok went from sounding noisy to capturing the fire of the heart. And so on.
> Sorry, it's late at night, and music really makes me emotional.


This is an interesting way. And I am curious where it will lead you. The most important thing I want to emphasize here: We all love music and serve this art in our own life...and!: We want to develop and make real and important experiences!



godzillaviolist said:


> Nothing good, mostly arrangements of Bach, Handel and other minor works, and of course a whole mountain of etudes. Don't worry, I'll post if I'm given something interesting to play


Nothing good? I hope it was not meant seriously :-D.



godzillaviolist said:


> I'm going to stay in the conservatory till I get to an advanced enough level, then enter Camosun college's music program.


How does Canada's music system look like? Conservatory is something like music-school, or where you study after highschool? And this College music program, what does it consist of?



godzillaviolist said:


> I walked up to the university today and counted thirty two rabbits, but the most I've ever counted on one walk was seventy-five. I'm not making this up


So many rabbits? In caves? Or where are they?

Good night to you!
and all the best to all,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> A nice comparison, so I had to quote it all . But this comparison has one weak point: You generalize too much: Not all young women have superficial beauty, and not all old women just beauty inside.


 I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the character _or_ lack of character in the young woman's face will be moderated by the superficial beauty she will have _as well_. The old woman's character _or_ lack of character will show without the moderating influence of young features. Bad Baroque music will be listenable even if of low quality. Bad modern music will just grate.



> *Daniel:*
> Nothing good? I hope it was not meant seriously :-D.


 It might be good in it's original form, but as viola arrangements they can be awfully dull. I can't wait till I can get to the point where I can play more music _written
_ for viola.



> *Daniel:*
> How does Canada's music system look like? Conservatory is something like music-school, or where you study after highschool? And this College music program, what does it consist of?


 Unfortunatly it is not very organised. For instance: the exams can either be national or specific to the individual conservatory. I can only say for sure what happens where I live.
But in general, the system here generally mirrors the school system to some extent. There are eight grades, and then college level. It doesn't take eight years to do eight grades however ( for instance I'm at around grade four or five in viola now, though I've only taken viola for a year and a month ). The conservatory teaches these eight grades to anyone ( yes, there are even a few retiree's there  ), at any age. It also has a college level program, which is done together with camosum college.



> *Daniel:*
> So many rabbits? In caves? Or where are they?


There is a bit of woodland around the University and a lot of lawn and parkland. My mother went to this university twenty years ago and, apparently, seeing a rabbit was rare. I think they're multiplied since that time 

Good afternoon everyone and I geuss ( if I'm calculating the time zones correctly ), Goodnight to you Daniel,

Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Thank you, Godzilla !



godzillaviolist said:


> Bad Baroque music will be listenable even if of low quality. Bad modern music will just grate.


Depends (*thinking*), but the point is the harmony, even if it is not logical or not well built up, it doesn't hurt your ears that much than "modern" music can do. But that includes, that you see a "ear-hurting" tendence in modern-music also? Do you mean that?



godzillaviolist said:


> It might be good in it's original form, but as viola arrangements they can be awfully dull. I can't wait till I can get to the point where I can play more music _written _for viola.


So what not too difficult original literature will you take at the beginning, do you think?



godzillaviolist said:


> Unfortunatly it is not very organised. For instance: the exams can either be national or specific to the individual conservatory. I can only say for sure what happens where I live.
> But in general, the system here generally mirrors the school system to some extent. There are eight grades, and then college level. It doesn't take eight years to do eight grades however ( for instance I'm at around grade four or five in viola now, though I've only taken viola for a year and a month ). The conservatory teaches these eight grades to anyone ( yes, there are even a few retiree's there  ), at any age. It also has a college level program, which is done together with camosum college.


This is music education and music school for everyone, am I right? So what if you want to study viola e.g afterwards. What about acadamies of music, universities, conservatories. How look like entry exams, and so on?

Have a nice day (or sleep for you in Canada )

All the best,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> Depends (*thinking*), but the point is the harmony, even if it is not logical or not well built up, it doesn't hurt your ears that much than "modern" music can do. But that includes, that you see a "ear-hurting" tendence in modern-music also? Do you mean that?


 While listening to modern music for a while makes one more used to dissonance, that affect of pain returns ( at least to me ), if I don't like the music. For instance Britten's operas, though only moderately dissonant and mainly tonal, often simply irritate me. Even some music I like, for example Penderecki's Threnody, opening part with the really loud, intense cluster chords is not pleasant, though it's certainly dramatic.
To use metaphor once again, it is the difference between getting a hug from someone you love, as opposed to by someone who you dislike. The same action will produce two different responses depending on the circumstances. So in a dissonant peice I like, the dissonance will be moving. In peice I dislike, irritating.



> *Daniel:*
> So what not too difficult original literature will you take at the beginning, do you think?


 I hope that within the year I'll be good enough to play Morpheus, Rebecca Clarke's peice for piano and viola. It's really beautifull and my favorite peice for viola and piano.



> *Daniel:*
> This is music education and music school for everyone, am I right? So what if you want to study viola e.g afterwards. What about acadamies of music, universities, conservatories. How look like entry exams, and so on?


 The entry exams aren't difficult, though to finish grades you often have to take tests. Once you get to college level I think they assume you're capable enough, though undoubtedly there will be tests there too. Technically anyone could enter the college music course with no training, though this is highly unlikely.
We had a huge black out here last night. It affected most of the city, so the view of the stars was inredible. 
Good afternoon and night,
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello back at the beginning of the week!



godzillaviolist said:


> While listening to modern music for a while makes one more used to dissonance, that affect of pain returns ( at least to me ),


Hm, not all things that you get used to must be good. 
I know what you think, so I will add it here: You think, getting used to this pain means: the pain exists because of traditional rules and habits. So getting over it does not mean anything bad. 
But for me it is getting over a natural sensitivity for pain. (I think you know that I had to say that )



godzillaviolist said:


> To use metaphor once again, it is the difference between getting a hug from someone you love, as opposed to by someone who you dislike. The same action will produce two different responses depending on the circumstances. So in a dissonant peice I like, the dissonance will be moving. In peice I dislike, irritating.


Also a consonance on a wrong place can be irritating.



godzillaviolist said:


> I hope that within the year I'll be good enough to play Morpheus, Rebecca Clarke's peice for piano and viola. It's really beautifull and my favorite peice for viola and piano.


A piece which I have to listen to.



godzillaviolist said:


> The entry exams aren't difficult, though to finish grades you often have to take tests. Once you get to college level I think they assume you're capable enough, though undoubtedly there will be tests there too. Technically anyone could enter the college music course with no training, though this is highly unlikely.


Interesting. Sounds much easier than here.



godzillaviolist said:


> We had a huge black out here last night. It affected most of the city, so the view of the stars was inredible.
> Good afternoon and night,
> Godzilla


Good night, sun really came out again today 
I wish you all a succesful week!
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *daniel:*
> Hm, not all things that you get used to must be good.


 Perhaps you may not know this, but most people have to learn how to hear _ordinary_ classical music let alone modernist pieces.



> *daniel:*
> I know what you think, so I will add it here: You think, getting used to this pain means: the pain exists because of traditional rules and habits. So getting over it does not mean anything bad.
> But for me it is getting over a natural sensitivity for pain. (I think you know that I had to say that )


 It's not "pain". It is dissonance. But you seem to make my point here:

[


> B]daniel:[/B]
> Also a consonance on a wrong place can be irritating.


 I can think of several modern works which would completely loose their impact if you stuck a C major chord in them.



> *daniel:*
> A piece which I have to listen to.


It's modern, but not scary modern 



> *daniel:*
> Interesting. Sounds much easier than here.


What is the situation like in Germany?



> *daniel:*
> I wish you all a succesful week!
> Daniel


 You too. Tommorow I'm going to be making arrangements for the courses I'll be taking in the fall. Theory, Viola, Orchestra and ( a new one ) Piano.
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello all,


godzillaviolist said:


> It's not "pain". It is dissonance.


But a dissonance can make pain.



godzillaviolist said:


> I can think of several modern works which would completely loose their impact if you stuck a C major chord in them.


That might be true, but I don't aim on putting in one chord into a piece. I aim on the idea of a whole piece.



godzillaviolist said:


> What is the situation like in Germany?


For your first studies you can take private lessons or go to music school. And you can become a "young student" in conservatories for example. But for "really" studying instruments, composition etc. you have to do entry exams in the acadamies of music (higher prestige than many conservatories) and in conservatories. 
Those entry exams have two parts: ear-training tests and instrument tests (or in composition: theory, ear-training, instrumental tests and compositions report for example). The level is very high. Not many places and many applicants. So it is useful to have contacts to professors to get a place.

Maybe I will tell here a story out of my life . I had 2 entry exams in the last weeks, in two cities, with the main course composition, and now when you know me and my principles, you can imagine, it won't be that easy for me . In the first city (Austrian), ear training - test was quite difficult, theory (figured bass, 4 part harmonizing, a little counterpoint, and a little analyse) was quite good. Then a talk with the professors about your compositions and I played piano and had to sight-sing. After that talk I was quite optimistic. I phoned them the next day, and I passed the exam, but it was not sure if I would get a place. And after some time where I had to phone again, I heard the result: I didn't get a place. Very sad: you spent much time preparing, you passed the exam, but didn't get a place.

In the second city I had to play piano first, then theory, then making a report (dedacophonic) and then talking about this piece and your compositions, sight-singing and short literature-knowledge and -hearing...and as last part ear training. I got a letter after some days: I am not accepted.

So far my impressions of entry exams. But I will try it again and again. Cross your fingers. 



godzillaviolist said:


> You too. Tommorow I'm going to be making arrangements for the courses I'll be taking in the fall. Theory, Viola, Orchestra and ( a new one ) Piano.
> Godzilla


Good luck
and all the best,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel*
> But a dissonance can make pain.


Not if handled the right way. Clashing, non-sensical dissonance can be irritating; but you can find that occuring as early as Berlioz 



> *Daniel*
> That might be true, but I don't aim on putting in one chord into a piece. I aim on the idea of a whole piece.


I think only a few minimalists would use a single chord as the basis for a work. What I meant is this; sometimes dissonance to dissonance can be more effective that the dissonace to consonance method of composing.



> *Daniel*
> For your first studies you can take private lessons or go to music school. And you can become a "young student" in conservatories for example. But for "really" studying instruments, composition etc. you have to do entry exams in the acadamies of music (higher prestige than many conservatories) and in conservatories.
> Those entry exams have two parts: ear-training tests and instrument tests (or in composition: theory, ear-training, instrumental tests and compositions report for example). The level is very high. Not many places and many applicants. So it is useful to have contacts to professors to get a place.
> 
> Maybe I will tell here a story out of my life . I had 2 entry exams in the last weeks, in two cities, with the main course composition, and now when you know me and my principles, you can imagine, it won't be that easy for me . In the first city (Austrian), ear training - test was quite difficult, theory (figured bass, 4 part harmonizing, a little counterpoint, and a little analyse) was quite good. Then a talk with the professors about your compositions and I played piano and had to sight-sing. After that talk I was quite optimistic. I phoned them the next day, and I passed the exam, but it was not sure if I would get a place. And after some time where I had to phone again, I heard the result: I didn't get a place. Very sad: you spent much time preparing, you passed the exam, but didn't get a place.
> 
> In the second city I had to play piano first, then theory, then making a report (dedacophonic) and then talking about this piece and your compositions, sight-singing and short literature-knowledge and -hearing...and as last part ear training. I got a letter after some days: I am not accepted.
> 
> So far my impressions of entry exams. But I will try it again and again. Cross your fingers.


 I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get in, things must be more difficult there. 
Have you thought of extending your search for a music academy beyond the german speaking countries? You english is quite good, I'm sure you'd have no problem from that end. Also the instruments you play are fairly standardised around the world, you wouldn't have the trouble that, say, a german clarinetist would have abroad.
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello it is Wednesday here ,



godzillaviolist said:


> I think only a few minimalists would use a single chord as the basis for a work. What I meant is this; sometimes dissonance to dissonance can be more effective that the dissonace to consonance method of composing.


Ok : Dissonance to dissonance to dissonance to dissonance to consonance would be also ok for me .



godzillaviolist said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get in, things must be more difficult there.
> Have you thought of extending your search for a music academy beyond the german speaking countries? You english is quite good, I'm sure you'd have no problem from that end. Also the instruments you play are fairly standardised around the world, you wouldn't have the trouble that, say, a german clarinetist would have abroad.
> Godzilla


I aim on a composition-study. Actually I heard abroad in the USA they are kind of conservative and more into tonal composition. That would make things easier for me. But it is also a question of money, relations and so on. Maybe, who knows, I can study somewhere in a non-German-spoken-country. But I don't think I would go to the USA (a question of culture, politics...).
What degrees can you make in Canadian conservatories? Bachelor, Master?

Have a nice day,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *daniel:*
> Hello it is Wednesday here,


Here too, but very early wednesday  . I'm going to try to wake up earlier from now on, as I'll need to by the fall.



> *daniel:*
> Ok : Dissonance to dissonance to dissonance to dissonance to consonance would be also ok for me .


 Most modern music has that or even less dissonance. Also, the majority of twentieth century composers are tonal to some degree. There was really only a short time period ( 1960-1980 ) where atonal music was dominant. When I think of the great composers of the twentieth century up to about 1960* ( I haven't listened to enough of the later composers to judge ), they nearly all were tonal to some degree. Only the second Viennese school was equally great in their atonality.



> *daniel:*
> I aim on a composition-study. Actually I heard abroad in the USA they are kind of conservative and more into tonal composition. That would make things easier for me. But it is also a question of money, relations and so on. Maybe, who knows, I can study somewhere in a non-German-spoken-country.


 In North America tonal composers are the vast majority. Atonality is fairly rare. Is it different in Germany?



> *daniel:*
> But I don't think I would go to the USA (a question of culture, politics...).


I know the feeling. Though there are more jobs in the USA than Canada, I'd be more likely to go to europe than to go to south of the border ( I can actually see the US over the water when I go a few blocks from my apartment down to the sea ). The dangers there; the guns, the lack of healthcare, the high crime rate are simply things I couldn't abide.



> *daniel:*
> What degrees can you make in Canadian conservatories? Bachelor, Master?


I'll see what I can find on this subject.

Goodmorning everyone,
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello again,


godzillaviolist said:


> Here too, but very early wednesday  . I'm going to try to wake up earlier from now on, as I'll need to by the fall.


I should also wake up earlier. Do you like to sleep long, or do you prefer waking up early?



godzillaviolist said:


> Most modern music has that or even less dissonance. Also, the majority of twentieth century composers are tonal to some degree.


A good question is then: why? Atonalism is limitated also? Just a short streaming? Different way of feeling nowadays? Or the seeing of a useless way? What do you think?


godzillaviolist said:


> In North America tonal composers are the vast majority. Atonality is fairly rare. Is it different in Germany?


Definately! What I have heard so far: Atonalism rules in acadamies of music, anyway in the compositions of the professors. That is a problem for me to get in. It might be that way because many professors were educated in the avant-garde time around the 60s. When you say you are writing tonal you feel like a stranger, like you are outcasted, like it is not real composition.

I remember a meeting as a price for young composers, the price was the meeting with the other prize-winners and the discussion of tje works also with professors and afterwards the perfomance by an ensemble. It was a great time for me (because I have out of my home no friends with same interests), but many of the young mates composed atonal (we had discussions like this, yes). Well and as my works were discussed, I noticed some smiles, it was like you are writing something which is not taken serious enough today. And the professors showed some compositions by them also. With hearing some of them you could have really cried, it was a painful experience for me also. But in general the feeling of a nice community of music-friends, remains in my memories. (And we had great pool (billards)-nights )



godzillaviolist said:


> I know the feeling. Though there are more jobs in the USA than Canada, I'd be more likely to go to europe than to go to south of the border ( I can actually see the US over the water when I go a few blocks from my apartment down to the sea ). The dangers there; the guns, the lack of healthcare, the high crime rate are simply things I couldn't abide.


One even can see it from over the border? So scary?

I hope you are doing fine,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> I should also wake up earlier. Do you like to sleep long, or do you prefer waking up early?


 In summer I like to sleep in, because the nights are nice and cool. I like to get up early in winter, though often end up sleeping late even then.



> *Daniel:*
> A good question is then: why? Atonalism is limitated also? Just a short streaming? Different way of feeling nowadays? Or the seeing of a useless way? What do you think?


 Perhaps all those things to some degree. But perhaps it's more due to the limits of serialism than atonality itself. While in pure atonality you can do anything you want, serialism can be rather limiting. Most atonal music writen is serial. The Viennese trio used "free" atonality from about 1910 to 1920, though Schoenberg went atonal a little earlier, Berg a little later. After that they were serialists. Afterwards, there were a few "free" atonal composers, but the divide was mainly between serialists on one side and tonalists on the other.



> *Daniel:*
> Definately! What I have heard so far: Atonalism rules in acadamies of music, anyway in the compositions of the professors. That is a problem for me to get in. It might be that way because many professors were educated in the avant-garde time around the 60s. When you say you are writing tonal you feel like a stranger, like you are outcasted, like it is not real composition.


 That's terrible! Perhaps it's because Germany was once considered the home of the Avant Garde? That was true especially from the 1950s to the 1980s. 
I must say that people here are more conservative to some degree; I've met a few composers at my school and all are tonal ( though apparently their used to be a composer here who specialised in electronics ). I even have a book of viola duets by one of them.



> *Daniel:*
> I remember a meeting as a price for young composers, the price was the meeting with the other prize-winners and the discussion of tje works also with professors and afterwards the perfomance by an ensemble. It was a great time for me (because I have out of my home no friends with same interests), but many of the young mates composed atonal (we had discussions like this, yes). Well and as my works were discussed, I noticed some smiles, it was like you are writing something which is not taken serious enough today. And the professors showed some compositions by them also. With hearing some of them you could have really cried, it was a painful experience for me also. But in general the feeling of a nice community of music-friends, remains in my memories. (And we had great pool (billards)-nights )


 I'd say we have the opposite problem here. I remember at a masterclass this violin student was being told by the teacher how similar this piece of Mozarts was to a peice by Stravinsky. He gave this fascinating speech concerning rythym in violin works that lasted about five minutes. At the end the student said "May I ask a question?" The teacher replied "Yes, of course," She replied "Who's Stravinsky?"  
As for old fashioned works being taken seriously, I think no matter what the idiom is, if it's quality music, it should be taken seriously.
I admit I'm rather shy about showing people music I've written, fearing the same reaction you got, though for different reasons.



> *Daniel:*
> One even can see it from over the border? So scary?


No, I meant the US is very close, so it would be more logical to go there for work. 
But as a matter of fact, ever since the change in government enviroment policies down there, you can see a difference even over the border. In 1999, the US south of us was green with clear air. Now there has been a lot of clear cutting ( one poor little island now has no trees at all ), and there is always a brown haze to the south ( when we get a strong wind from the south it smells putrid ).

Hope all's well in Germany and elsewhere,
Godzilla

PS; You can get any music degree you'd like from a Canadian university; the only catch is this: you can't take all the degrees from the same University i.e. you'd do your BA at one University and your MA at another.


----------



## Daniel

Hello all,



godzillaviolist said:


> Perhaps all those things to some degree. But perhaps it's more due to the limits of serialism than atonality itself. While in pure atonality you can do anything you want, serialism can be rather limiting. Most atonal music writen is serial. The Viennese trio used "free" atonality from about 1910 to 1920, though Schoenberg went atonal a little earlier, Berg a little later. After that they were serialists. Afterwards, there were a few "free" atonal composers, but the divide was mainly between serialists on one side and tonalists on the other.


Do you know Josef Matthias Hauer? He created (a little earlier than Schönberg?) a similiar dedacophonic method. Have you heard anything by him yet, and if yes what role would you give him in history?



godzillaviolist said:


> I'd say we have the opposite problem here. I remember at a masterclass this violin student was being told by the teacher how similar this piece of Mozarts was to a peice by Stravinsky. He gave this fascinating speech concerning rythym in violin works that lasted about five minutes. At the end the student said "May I ask a question?" The teacher replied "Yes, of course," She replied "Who's Stravinsky?"


Yes another world. Actually modern serious music takes a great part of music education in acadamies of music, conservatories... and festivals here. I don't know how it looks like in festivals there...but I read about the Festival in Bern (Switzerland) with the leading of Pierre Boulez. When you look to the schedule you have the definately focus on modern music, including lots of Lachenmann and also music by Varese for example.



godzillaviolist said:


> if it's quality music, it should be taken seriously.


You are so right!


godzillaviolist said:


> I admit I'm rather shy about showing people music I've written, fearing the same reaction you got, though for different reasons.


Actually I am curious what works you have written. Could you explain those "different reasons". And, by the way, I am also shy in showing works of mine (partly also an effect by the experience I had to make).



godzillaviolist said:


> Now there has been a lot of clear cutting ( one poor little island now has no trees at all )


What is the sense of cutting woods?



godzillaviolist said:


> PS; You can get any music degree you'd like from a Canadian university; the only catch is this: you can't take all the degrees from the same University i.e. you'd do your BA at one University and your MA at another.


Interesting, thanks for the info. And what about the entry exams in those universities? Did you mean those not difficult exams in some earlier posts?

I wish you all the best,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> Do you know Josef Matthias Hauer? He created (a little earlier than Schönberg?) a similiar dedacophonic method. Have you heard anything by him yet, and if yes what role would you give him in history?


It is difficult to say. In some instances one can look at composers in isolation from music history; but in this case, when two composers come up with a very similar idea around the same time, in the same place, one really has to wonder how much they influenced each other.
I haven't heard Hauer's music, but I really haven't listened to all the music I should have anyway; CDs are just so expensive!
Of course, one can come up with ideas without knowing they already existed. As an example: when I was 11, I invented this really great dessert using bananas and burnt sugar. I was really upset when I found out about Bananas Foster  Admitedly inventing a whole new system of music is on far larger scale, but it's certainly not impossible for Schoenberg to have thought of it in isolation.



> *Daniel:*
> Yes another world. Actually modern serious music takes a great part of music education in acadamies of music, conservatories... and festivals here. I don't know how it looks like in festivals there...but I read about the Festival in Bern (Switzerland) with the leading of Pierre Boulez. When you look to the schedule you have the definately focus on modern music, including lots of Lachenmann and also music by Varese for example.


 Varese had talent, though I loathe his usual idiom. He wrote a song in a tonal idiom that is quite beautifull, despite the fact that it's not well known.
In North America, classical music is a museum tradition in many ways. To the average North American classical listener, classical music is from 1600-1900 with a few twentieth century additions. New music is a little bit of a non-entity, and musicians are trained for a long time before they run into modern music. It's mainly encountered at "college level".
Also, the classical audience is smaller, and very old. When I look at the average audience at the opera or at the symphony orchestra concerts, I wonder if they like Beethoven because they knew him in person 



> *Daniel:*
> Actually I am curious what works you have written. Could you explain those "different reasons". And, by the way, I am also shy in showing works of mine (partly also an effect by the experience I had to make).


 I don't know if you have heard the expression "Never do something you wouldn't want as the Headline of tommorow's Newspaper"? I have that feeling in composition, except in regards to performance. Since I haven't written anything I'd want performed, I don't want to show anything to anyone. I won't consider myself a composer till I have written a peice I consider good. Most of my compositions have been either bad or just middling. So I don't have the confidence yet.
I know that I have the ability to compose, I'm sure of that. But my musical mind is just starting to develop consistancy, and I'm absorbing new information so fast that, every time I write something I don't like it after a week or so. In a year, I'll start composing in earnest, but for now I'll just try to learn as much as I can.

[


> B]Daniel:[/B]
> What is the sense of cutting woods?


The money from logging is one of the things that drives the economy here and south of the border. The high rainfall makes the trees grow fast and large, and so there is a good profit to be made.
What I object to is the practice of clearcutting ( which means you cut down all the trees ). It used to be terribly common here and south of the border. I don't know if you live near any forested mountains, but say you lived near one, then went on a holiday, and when you came back all the trees on the mountain were gone. That very thing used to be a common occurance here. Big enviromental protests happened and selective cutting ( where you only cut down a few of the trees ) became the norm. But since the Republicans got in the US, a lot of the laws were removed, so loggers could clearcut again. What is even more scary is that now they're even opening up national parks to this sort of abuse.
Fortunatly I live in Canada, and while our enviromental laws aren't perfect, they're far better than in the US.



> *Daniel:*
> Interesting, thanks for the info. And what about the entry exams in those universities? Did you mean those not difficult exams in some earlier posts?


 I'm not sure, I'll have to investigate some more in regards to this issue.

Good luck in your search, and remember even Verdi was rejected by the Milan conservatory!
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello,


godzillaviolist said:


> I haven't heard Hauer's music, but I really haven't listened to all the music I should have anyway; CDs are just so expensive!


Yes I know . How much for a new CD in average? Here around 20 €. That is something around 28 $ I would say.


godzillaviolist said:


> Of course, one can come up with ideas without knowing they already existed. As an example: when I was 11, I invented this really great dessert using bananas and burnt sugar. I was really upset when I found out about Bananas Foster  Admitedly inventing a whole new system of music is on far larger scale, but it's certainly not impossible for Schoenberg to have thought of it in isolation.


An interesting topic...That is a fact for the "imaginery" flowing...same in music. You know a funny anecdote about Felix and his sister Fanny Mendelssohn? They understood so well, maybe you know that....Once they have written a new composition and sent them to each other around the same time. 
As they opened it, they were surprised: same tonality, similiar melodies and ideas. A wonderful example how two musicians can think congruente.



godzillaviolist said:


> Varese had talent, though I loathe his usual idiom. He wrote a song in a tonal idiom that is quite beautifull, despite the fact that it's not well known.
> In North America, classical music is a museum tradition in many ways. To the average North American classical listener, classical music is from 1600-1900 with a few twentieth century additions. New music is a little bit of a non-entity, and musicians are trained for a long time before they run into modern music. It's mainly encountered at "college level".


Interesting because in World War 2 many avant garde artists and composers went to the USA, but they couldn't establish it there? There is Charles Ives? Cage, Copland and Carter, besides of the not so avant-gardists like Gershwin and Bernstein or Barber?



godzillaviolist said:


> I don't know if you have heard the expression "Never do something you wouldn't want as the Headline of tommorow's Newspaper"? I have that feeling in composition, except in regards to performance. Since I haven't written anything I'd want performed, I don't want to show anything to anyone. I won't consider myself a composer till I have written a peice I consider good. Most of my compositions have been either bad or just middling. So I don't have the confidence yet.
> I know that I have the ability to compose, I'm sure of that. But my musical mind is just starting to develop consistancy, and I'm absorbing new information so fast that, every time I write something I don't like it after a week or so. In a year, I'll start composing in earnest, but for now I'll just try to learn as much as I can.


A good point. Just there must be a time where you get it in public, because this learning process will last your whole life. But you have to feel and must have the confidence that you want to show it. What works did you write, what instrumentations, if I may ask?



godzillaviolist said:


> Good luck in your search, and remember even Verdi was rejected by the Milan conservatory!
> Godzilla


Thank you Godzilla. I will begin studying musicology first probably, and then try again with composition...I will see where .

All the best, 
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> Yes I know . How much for a new CD in average? Here around 20 €. That is something around 28 $ I would say.


 I feel a bit embarrassed now that I've used a currency converter. I forgot how cheap things were in Canada. Classical CDs are on average about six to ten euros, CD collections ( large symphonies or operas ) range from about ten to eighteen euros. Really large collections ( complete works or something similar ) twenty to fourty euros. You can get cheap Naxos CDs for under five euros. I geuss it's just that everything else is so cheap here that CDs seem expensive.



> *Daniel:*
> An interesting topic...That is a fact for the "imaginery" flowing...same in music. You know a funny anecdote about Felix and his sister Fanny Mendelssohn? They understood so well, maybe you know that....Once they have written a new composition and sent them to each other around the same time.
> As they opened it, they were surprised: same tonality, similiar melodies and ideas. A wonderful example how two musicians can think congruente.


 Very interesting. I often wonder what identical twin composers would be like, whether they would have similar musical ideas or not.



> *Daniel:*
> Interesting because in World War 2 many avant garde artists and composers went to the USA, but they couldn't establish it there? There is Charles Ives? Cage, Copland and Carter, besides of the not so avant-gardists like Gershwin and Bernstein or Barber?


 They established it there, but the audience didn't listen to it much. It was considered beyond the pale of concert halls to some degree. Heard once, never heard again tended be their music's fate. Ives was accepted to some degree, but not in his lifetime. Carter still has a limited audience compared to european favorites. Copland is popular, but not his Avant garde works. Gershwin is popular, but Bernstein isn't considered a concert hall regular, and Barber's popularity is limited to the often played Adagio.



> *Daniel:*
> A good point. Just there must be a time where you get it in public, because this learning process will last your whole life. But you have to feel and must have the confidence that you want to show it. What works did you write, what instrumentations, if I may ask?


 A string quartet, a string sextet, a couple songs and parts of an opera based on Peer Gynt. I hadn't decided on the opera orchestration yet, though I knew it would include strings, double woodwind and a trio of trombones.
Godzilla

PS; I'm trying to find out about the music program at Canadian Universities. It's more complex than I thought however, different Universities operating differently.


----------



## Daniel

Hello, hello,



godzillaviolist said:


> I feel a bit embarrassed now that I've used a currency converter. I forgot how cheap things were in Canada. Classical CDs are on average about six to ten euros, CD collections ( large symphonies or operas ) range from about ten to eighteen euros. Really large collections ( complete works or something similar ) twenty to fourty euros. You can get cheap Naxos CDs for under five euros. I geuss it's just that everything else is so cheap here that CDs seem expensive.


Well, if things are in general much cheaper, then CDs are quite expensive if you see it relative (it would change if the money you earn here and there would be the same, than Canada would be so cheap ). Well you can buy here the Naxos CDs also, around 5 € (I find this price really fair!) there are CDs around 10-15 €, but usually, some standard CDs and new-out-coming CDs around 20 €, and if you search for some complete recordings like symphonies it can be around 100 € (or I think even more (but this price I cannot afford usually ).



godzillaviolist said:


> Very interesting. I often wonder what identical twin composers would be like, whether they would have similar musical ideas or not.


An individual question. Depends on the character. Twins must not have a similiar character, what do you think? And the character and the personality has the main influence on composition, no, I must say: It is the reason, the "motor" and the source for compositions, how they are worked out in style, structure and intension.



godzillaviolist said:


> They established it there, but the audience didn't listen to it much. It was considered beyond the pale of concert halls to some degree. Heard once, never heard again tended be their music's fate. Ives was accepted to some degree, but not in his lifetime. Carter still has a limited audience compared to european favorites. Copland is popular, but not his Avant garde works. Gershwin is popular, but Bernstein isn't considered a concert hall regular, and Barber's popularity is limited to the often played Adagio.


I must say, I am not used to their music also. I don't like Gershwin, just some parts. Barber's violin concerto has wonderful ideas.



godzillaviolist said:


> A string quartet, a string sextet, a couple songs and parts of an opera based on Peer Gynt. I hadn't decided on the opera orchestration yet, though I knew it would include strings, double woodwind and a trio of trombones.


And stylistic? Some works out of your tonal period and one can see your personal development?



godzillaviolist said:


> PS; I'm trying to find out about the music program at Canadian Universities. It's more complex than I thought however, different Universities operating differently.


That's kind, Godzilla, thanks. Do you plan to start studies on those universities?

A wonderful day 
wishes Daniel 

P.S.: Now that I've used also a currency converter: if you take 20 € it is 24.7551 USD.
P.P.S.: I wonder where Vivaciouswagnerian is.


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel:*
> Well, if things are in general much cheaper, then CDs are quite expensive if you see it relative (it would change if the money you earn here and there would be the same, than Canada would be so cheap ). Well you can buy here the Naxos CDs also, around 5 € (I find this price really fair!) there are CDs around 10-15 €, but usually, some standard CDs and new-out-coming CDs around 20 €, and if you search for some complete recordings like symphonies it can be around 100 € (or I think even more (but this price I cannot afford usually ).


 I'm going to the CD store tommorow, now that the financial situation isn't so dire. What is nice is that they let you listen to the CD first, so one can get a good idea of what they sound like before you buy them. The only problem is that the clerk there hates classical music, and lets everyone know it  .



> *Daniel:*
> I must say, I am not used to their music also. I don't like Gershwin, just some parts. Barber's violin concerto has wonderful ideas.


 For some reason Bernstein is thought of very highly in the US. Some people say "West side story" is one of the greastest opera ever written. I don't think that, especially since it's a musical, not an opera. Bernstein did write an opera "Candide", who's coloratura aria "Glitter and be Gay" is popular. It always makes people laugh though, because of [ deliberate or accidental, I'm unsure ] double entendre.
Gershwin is in the odd position of being both a popular and semi-classical composer. His music is played in concert halls, but it's also well known by those who never listen to classical at all. Just about everyone knows the most famous tunes from Porgy and Bess.
I must admit, I've never heard Barber's violin concerto before, I must give it a listen some time.



> *Daniel:*
> And stylistic? Some works out of your tonal period and one can see your personal development?


Oh, all my tonal stuff isn't very good. My modal stuff is better. I've only written a couple atonal peices, and one peice using an very odd scale.



> *Daniel:*
> That's kind, Godzilla, thanks. Do you plan to start studies on those universities?


 No, I'm going to use the postgraduate program at the conservatory; which is the one that is half in Camosun college ( very confusing, I know ).
From what I can find out about universities, you can't specialise in the first two years. The next two years, you can specialise somewhat. After that you can specialise completely. But it varies depending on the University



> *Daniel:*
> P.S.: Now that I've used also a currency converter: if you take 20 € it is 24.7551 USD.


 That would be around 30 canadian dollars.



> *Daniel:*
> P.P.S.: I wonder where Vivaciouswagnerian is.


 Me too. I hope she hasn't been abducted by Valkyries  
Well wishes,
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello,



godzillaviolist said:


> I'm going to the CD store tommorow, now that the financial situation isn't so dire. What is nice is that they let you listen to the CD first, so one can get a good idea of what they sound like before you buy them.


Yes, yes, yes, yes, we have such a store also: BIG CD-Store. This listening-service is so helpful and good. I feel so familiar, comfortable and happy beteen the CD rows...



godzillaviolist said:


> using an very odd scale.


What kind of scale (you see we are getting closer and closer to your compositions )?



godzillaviolist said:


> No, I'm going to use the postgraduate program at the conservatory; which is the one that is half in Camosun college ( very confusing, I know ).
> From what I can find out about universities, you can't specialise in the first two years. The next two years, you can specialise somewhat. After that you can specialise completely. But it varies depending on the University


So what different ways to study music do you have there? College, conservatory, university? 
And you have in universities first general courses and then specialising?



godzillaviolist said:


> That would be around 30 canadian dollars.


...or around 2,758 JPY (Japanese Yen)... 



godzillaviolist said:


> Me too. I hope she hasn't been abducted by Valkyries


I hope not! We could create a new thread about Wagner and inform him (I was firstly confused with "she", typed also her but researched it on the profile and his link, that vivacious wagnerian is a he... godzilla, we must take care, a he, a he ) by mail... :-D

Greetings,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> [Daniel;]
> What kind of scale (you see we are getting closer and closer to your compositions )?


The scale was G A Bb Cb D Eb Fb G. Essentially a g minor scale with a dimished fourth and seventh.



> [Daniel;]
> So what different ways to study music do you have there? College, conservatory, university?


 Most conservatories have arrangements with colleges or universities that allows people to study mostly music there. Most Universities have a seperate music program altogether, though in my city, everything is rather interconnected ( for instance I know one teacher who works at all three ).



> [Daniel;]
> And you have in universities first general courses and then specialising?


 Yes. It means people often end up doing unusual courses ( I know a psychologist who had to take a course in modern dance, for instance ). A lot of people don't know what they want to do till they enter university, so this system works very well for those people.
How do Universities in Germany work?



> [Daniel;]
> ...or around 2,758 JPY (Japanese Yen)...


Which from what I've read about japan, will buy you a lollipop and not much else. 



> [Daniel;]
> I hope not! We could create a new thread about Wagner and inform him (I was firstly confused with "she", typed also her but researched it on the profile and his link, that vivacious wagnerian is a he... godzilla, we must take care, a he, a he ) by mail... :-D
> 
> Greetings,
> Daniel


 Hmm... for some reason I thought vivacious was a female term. But I looked in the dictionary, found it between vivandiere and vituperate  , and sure enough it's not gender specific. 
Learn something new every day,
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello all!



godzillaviolist said:


> The scale was G A Bb Cb D Eb Fb G. Essentially a g minor scale with a dimished fourth and seventh.


Interesting, and the next step would be putting it online  (just kidding, but it would be nice).



godzillaviolist said:


> Yes. It means people often end up doing unusual courses ( I know a psychologist who had to take a course in modern dance, for instance ). A lot of people don't know what they want to do till they enter university, so this system works very well for those people.


Hm, we have also some not general or "site"-courses but they should be close to your topic or even support it, though there might be some strange combinations also.
What kind of general courses do you have there then? It must be like highschool with many courses, or not? But it is (here) the sense after highschool, that you can take what you want to study....


godzillaviolist said:


> How do Universities in Germany work?


To make an overview: We have Universities with many faculties....different kind of courses. But if you made your A-levels (Abitur) you should know what you want to study, because you choose your major and some other courses. 
If you want to study music (instrumental, composition...) you have conservatories and acadamies of music. They have entry exams. University in general not (I think so), but it is changing. If you want to study musicology, you study it in a section of university. Studying music means you must know what to study: an instrument, vocal, composition, perfomance....you can add other studies after finishing one or after cancelling. Of course you have also general course like music history...but you are focusizing on your main course from the beginning. Conservatories have a bit easier entry exam, and I hear, the acadamies have a higher prestige (maybe also a higher level).



godzillaviolist said:


> and sure enough it's not gender specific.
> Learn something new every day,
> Godzilla


You must have a look on his site: (Vivaciouswagnerian>>Profile>>homepage). You can see, he is around these days (look at the dates of his kind of diary)...  He should get a mail, reminding him on this forum, what do you think?

Greetings, 
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

> *Daniel*
> Interesting, and the next step would be putting it online  (just kidding, but it would be nice).


 Perhaps you could reccomend the program you used for your trio? I think it would be fun to use that program  .



> *Daniel*
> Hm, we have also some not general or "site"-courses but they should be close to your topic or even support it, though there might be some strange combinations also.
> What kind of general courses do you have there then? It must be like highschool with many courses, or not? But it is (here) the sense after highschool, that you can take what you want to study....


 Very much like highschool, but on a much higher level.



> *Daniel*
> To make an overview: We have Universities with many faculties....different kind of courses. But if you made your A-levels (Abitur) you should know what you want to study, because you choose your major and some other courses.
> If you want to study music (instrumental, composition...) you have conservatories and acadamies of music. They have entry exams. University in general not (I think so), but it is changing. If you want to study musicology, you study it in a section of university. Studying music means you must know what to study: an instrument, vocal, composition, perfomance....you can add other studies after finishing one or after cancelling. Of course you have also general course like music history...but you are focusizing on your main course from the beginning. Conservatories have a bit easier entry exam, and I hear, the acadamies have a higher prestige (maybe also a higher level).


 It sounds similar to Canada, except that there isn't the Academy-Conservatory difference. Oddly, Acadamies are often seasonal, intensive courses on one subject. For instance there is a String "Academy" at my Conservatory this summer.



> *Daniel*
> You must have a look on his site: (Vivaciouswagnerian>>Profile>>homepage). You can see, he is around these days (look at the dates of his kind of diary)...  He should get a mail, reminding him on this forum, what do you think?


 Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to seem like a pest. I wonder; is that him on the left?
Godzilla

PS: Watching the sun rise now... I got stuck into a book and I stayed up all night reading.


----------



## Daniel

Hello, hello!



godzillaviolist said:


> Perhaps you could reccomend the program you used for your trio? I think it would be fun to use that program  .


 I am not completly sure what program you mean. The notation program (for notating the score), the recording program? or the plugin for putting it on sibeliusmusic.com (where you can view it under my signature "My compositions").
I will answer to all possibities. My notation software is Sibelius, which is not free (but for example Finale Notepad offers a free program for smaller scores: click here). The recording process was playing it with a special soundfont-mixture and recording it in the background. The plugin for SibeliusMusic is "Scorch", which is free with the possibility to view, print and transpose scores. To put it there you need to own Sibelius and send it to there where it is converted to scorch.



godzillaviolist said:


> Very much like highschool, but on a much higher level.


How can you keep on with all subjects on such high levels...it must be very exhausting especially if you don't have the relation to some subjects you don't want to study in all cases.



godzillaviolist said:


> It sounds similar to Canada, except that there isn't the Academy-Conservatory difference. Oddly, Acadamies are often seasonal, intensive courses on one subject. For instance there is a String "Academy" at my Conservatory this summer.


Those names are sometimes a bit confusing. For example we have "Diploms" as final exams in highschool, but I think, it is changed more to international standards like bacchelors...



godzillaviolist said:


> I wonder; is that him on the left?


I don't know, but I guess so...first the lady is more in foreground, so the "female-theory" could have been true...



godzillaviolist said:


> PS: Watching the sun rise now... I got stuck into a book and I stayed up all night reading.


Only possible in vacations?  What book was it? I am reading the memories of Piatigorsky right now.

Greetings from a sunny Germany,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

Daniel said:


> I am not completly sure what program you mean. The notation program (for notating the score), the recording program? or the plugin for putting it on sibeliusmusic.com (where you can view it under my signature "My compositions").
> I will answer to all possibities. My notation software is Sibelius, which is not free (but for example Finale Notepad offers a free program for smaller scores: click here). The recording process was playing it with a special soundfont-mixture and recording it in the background. The plugin for SibeliusMusic is "Scorch", which is free with the possibility to view, print and transpose scores. To put it there you need to own Sibelius and send it to there where it is converted to scorch.


 Thankyou! I'll read up on Sibelius [the program] after I finish this post.



> *Daniel*
> How can you keep on with all subjects on such high levels...it must be very exhausting especially if you don't have the relation to some subjects you don't want to study in all cases.


 The first years are apparently somewhat hectic. But they tend to ask for less i.e. only five or ten page papers required rather than the possibly hundreds at the higher levels.



> *Daniel*
> Those names are sometimes a bit confusing. For example we have "Diploms" as final exams in highschool, but I think, it is changed more to international standards like bacchelors...


 I hear they might be changing our education system here too.
Speaking of changes, I read that in Germany they are getting rid of that letter that looks a bit like B. Does that mean everyone in Germany needs a new keyboard or something similar?



> *Daniel*
> Only possible in vacations?  What book was it? I am reading the memories of Piatigorsky right now.


 It was Arthur C. Clarke's book Childhoods end. It was entertaining, though his vision of the future is somewhat odd because he wrote in the 1950s with 1950s world-view ( for instance; women are mainly interested in knitting and cooking in his vision of the future  ). 
What was interesting was his idea that creativity would cease in a utopia. In his view, when struggle no longer exists, creativity dries up. So in his world science and art has no more geniuses.
I'm not sure I agree, but it's an interesting theory anyway.
Godzilla


----------



## Daniel

Hello ,



godzillaviolist said:


> I hear they might be changing our education system here too.
> Speaking of changes, I read that in Germany they are getting rid of that letter that looks a bit like B. Does that mean everyone in Germany needs a new keyboard or something similar?


 ßßßßß  Well there was a new spelling system introduced (actually in the sense of making spelling and rules easier, but I don't know if it is easier, sometimes maybe more difficult). They changed words to show their origins and so on. And concerning our ß: We don't leave it completly, the change is that if you have a short spoken vowel in front of the "ß" it is written as "ss" now and if it is a long spoken vowel it still remains "ß".

Examples: "Straße" (street) ("a" is long so it remains "Straße").
But "Fluß" (river) is written in the new form "Fluss". Or you have the word "Tip" ("hint") now written "Tipp". And I think the same with "Stop" (a stop, yes ), written "Stopp".

This double consonance after short vowel should be written quite often. And the komma-system changed also....but actually I like the old system better. Some words just look strange. And there was a great debatte in Germany and still is. But I didn't hear that all ßs are forbidden or taken away, luckily, because I like it and I think it is part of our writing-culture. 
What I remember from our German lessons, and as far as I know: In older days authors didn't take rules so serious, actually, I think there were no so strict rules. So if you see those old writings it can be sometimes tricky, but very interesting, and sometimes also funny in spellings. This rules are maybe typical for our times, to make so many things into rules and laws (so much paperwork in Germany ).



godzillaviolist said:


> What was interesting was his idea that creativity would cease in a utopia. In his view, when struggle no longer exists, creativity dries up. So in his world science and art has no more geniuses.
> I'm not sure I agree, but it's an interesting theory anyway.
> Godzilla


Hm the view, that you need to suffer for true art. I remember on this thread.
Actually I think music has to be a way out of suffering, it shall lead you. And there is always a way to get better, to improove.

So far,
Daniel


----------



## godzillaviolist

Daniel said:


> Hello ,
> ßßßßß Well there was a new spelling system introduced (actually in the sense of making spelling and rules easier, but I don't know if it is easier, sometimes maybe more difficult). They changed words to show their origins and so on. And concerning our ß: We don't leave it completly, the change is that if you have a short spoken vowel in front of the "ß" it is written as "ss" now and if it is a long spoken vowel it still remains "ß".
> 
> Examples: "Straße" (street) ("a" is long so it remains "Straße").
> But "Fluß" (river) is written in the new form "Fluss". Or you have the word "Tip" ("hint") now written "Tipp". And I think the same with "Stop" (a stop, yes ), written "Stopp".
> 
> This double consonance after short vowel should be written quite often. And the komma-system changed also....but actually I like the old system better. Some words just look strange. And there was a great debatte in Germany and still is. But I didn't hear that all ßs are forbidden or taken away, luckily, because I like it and I think it is part of our writing-culture.
> What I remember from our German lessons, and as far as I know: In older days authors didn't take rules so serious, actually, I think there were no so strict rules. So if you see those old writings it can be sometimes tricky, but very interesting, and sometimes also funny in spellings. This rules are maybe typical for our times, to make so many things into rules and laws (so much paperwork in Germany ).


 Interesting! I can't say that encourages me to try to learn learn German  , but I find language fascinating all the same.
I must say that the only thing that has happened to the english language recently is there seems to be a large non-official simplification of english. Foreign words are the most notable example. English has added a lot of foreign words to it's vocabulary over the centuries, which means that english had to include the special letters for those words ( umlauts, accent marks ect. ) In my lifetime, I've watched them slowly disappear. 
A change that irritates me is the American use of impacted. Impacted used to mean blocked, but was most commonly used to reffer to severe constipation. In the US impacted started to mean "had an impact upon", a usage which strikes me as funny even though I'm used to it. An amusing sentance I found recently: "The building of the Aswan dam impacted the fish in the eastern Mediterranean sea."  
As for reading english from earlier centuries, it can often be very archaic and inconsistant to modern eyes. I even remember a parody Tudor manuscript which begins in readable english but starts changing the spellings to the point where the end paragraph is incomprehensible. While it was a parody, it's true earlier forms of english are harder to read. English is officially modern english from the mid-1400s on, but it's changed a lot in the past five centuries, and gone through some strange stages in the process. One of the weirdest to read is a stage where proper nouns are always in italics.
Though I feel embarrassed for being mono-lingual, I blame english spelling. It takes so long to learn, I simply didn't have time to learn anything else. 



> Actually I think music has to be a way out of suffering, it shall lead you. And there is always a way to get better, to improove.
> 
> So far,
> Daniel


 I'm having this debate in terms of Schornberg vs. Strauss on another forum ( title: atonality vs. tonality ).

Trying to rationalize cwm and chthonic,
Godzilla


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## Daniel

Hello again,



godzillaviolist said:


> As for reading english from earlier centuries, it can often be very archaic and inconsistant to modern eyes. I even remember a parody Tudor manuscript which begins in readable english but starts changing the spellings to the point where the end paragraph is incomprehensible. While it was a parody, it's true earlier forms of english are harder to read. English is officially modern english from the mid-1400s on, but it's changed a lot in the past five centuries, and gone through some strange stages in the process. One of the weirdest to read is a stage where proper nouns are always in italics.


What is very interesting is how language developed and developss; influences from other cultures and empires like latin>greek>arabic...and then english>french in England I think, and keltic>Germanic>latin...how they influenced each other and how a mixture comes out and develops as an own language. So old scripts are very interesting, I think we can all be surprised .



godzillaviolist said:


> I'm having this debate in terms of Schornberg vs. Strauss on another forum ( title: atonality vs. tonality ).


You can find me on the forum , but it is difficult to start in a long-during topic...

Listening to Bruckner's 3rd symphonie...

I will look to make some lunch soon,
Daniel


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## strav100

I can't seem to settle on a style when I compose - hence I have only written passages - i have never completed a whole work but as I get older and feel more 'i don't give a damn if anyone likes it i'm going to write what i want' i feel closer to being more secure in myself what i want to write because i am basically beginning to think i don't give a damn and I actually don't care about the style! So what if the style shifts in the one piece - if it's goos music i think you can get away with it.

BTW about dissonant stuff - try Carl Ruggles Sun Treader - its all dissonant counterpoint , the lines generally making major 7ths and minor 9ths - weirdly you get used to it and the dissonance sound less strong due to 'saturation' hence the only way to increase tension is by getting louder / using more harmonically timbrally strong (!) instruments to play these dissonances


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## Oneiros

Well that was a very interesting discussion - I just finished reading all the pages. I agree with many of the things you have said Daniel! 

For myself I compose in fairly strict tonality, as I am only fairly new to composing, and find this the most natural and accessible way of composing. Also I like tonal works, i.e Classical and Baroque mostly, and some Romantic works, but not any modern music. So it is just natural for me to compose in the style which I like and listen to the most.

But I will give these things some more thought and perhaps return, if the discussion ever livens up again!


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## Daniel

Hello phatic!

As I see in others threads spreading new discussions about contempory music, one could think about focusing on one, or getting in here again, too.
Some time has passed since this discussion and also my opinion has done some progress, I hope.

So if there is any interests to go ahead, let us go for it.

Many greetings,
Daniel


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## World Violist

I like the classical-romantic style of music, and have been trying, with my extremely limited experience in composition, to write in that sort of style--Brahms especially.


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## AndreasvanHaren

I don't think about what style I'm composing in, although I of course know that my music does sound like this or that composer now and then. I write however to express myself and not because I want to be original, trusting that after doing that for a long time, I will have have my own voice anyway.

André


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## World Violist

AndreasvanHaren said:


> I don't think about what style I'm composing in, although I of course know that my music does sound like this or that composer now and then. I write however to express myself and not because I want to be original, trusting that after doing that for a long time, I will have have my own voice anyway.
> 
> André


Well, I try more to approach the piece from the "flavor" side; I think about the key signature and what it is trying to convey, then I start writing whatever feels right. I just remark that I feel more comfortable writing in the Romantic style than the Baroque, Classical, or Modern styles.


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