# Confused About Mahler 3



## Elliott Carter (Dec 23, 2020)

I truly love Mahler 3, particularly the outer movements, but I must say---I am confused about the fifth movement. What is its message? What place does its text, and in particular the invocation of a sinner's guilt, have in the larger philosophical arc of this symphony? How does it relate to the overarching metaphorical structure Mahler had in mind: summer breaking free of harsh lifelessness and the subsequent flowering of life in all its forms, culminating in the deep, mysterious sentience of humanity and humans' capacity for spiritual love? What is such an overtly religious text doing in the work of a man who shunned dogmatic faith? Did Mahler mean this movement to be an expression of child-like, naïve faith? Or did he really intend to present the Christian religious message of this text as an answer to the primeval, destructive forces of the first movement, streaks of grotesque humor in the third movement, and the existential questioning of man in the fourth? If so, why have a second answer, when the other one (the sixth movement) is so much more powerful? Above all, is it possible to hear the fifth movement and understand its function in a way that is not dogmatically religious? I would love to hear some thoughts on this.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm no Mahler expert, but I love the composer's music, and the Third Symphony is one of my all time favorite orchestral works, and I may even claim movement five as my favorite Mahler movement at times. It remains unforgettable, and it made a deep impression on me when I first heard it, decades ago.

You might look here for a start into the Mahler Third.

https://thelistenersclub.com/2019/05/29/mahlers-third-symphony-a-progression-to-the-divine/

I'm sure others will have much to offer.

By the way, welcome to the Forum, Elliott. Gosh, your name sounds familiar. But ... I just can't place it. Must be my old mush-filled mind.


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Mr. Carter, you weren't so hot on Mahler I thought?


> What is such an overtly religious text doing in the work of a man who shunned dogmatic faith?


Well, this presupposes a false dichotomy. He certainly had spiritual beliefs and one does not commit themselves to dogma simply by referencing at text-I would compare this to Wittgenstein's belief in God and divine judgement and his statement that he saw "all problems from a religious point of view" even though he could "never bend the knee," i.e. commit to formal religion.


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## Isaac Blackburn (Feb 26, 2020)

In terms of movement order it is a striking but effective placement. In order for the final Adagio to have its full effect, we must descend into its solemnity from a place of comparative joy and ease; it would not work, for example, to go from the 4th movement to the 6th. The upward motion through being would still persist, interfering with the ocean of repose that is that final movement.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Elliott Carter said:


> I truly love Mahler 3, particularly the outer movements, but I must say---I am confused about the fifth movement. What is its message? What place does its text, and in particular the invocation of a sinner's guilt, have in the larger philosophical arc of this symphony?


I heard someone describe the progression of the movements as degrees of aspiration. First, matter aspires to life. Life aspires to order. Order aspires to intelligence (conscience). Intelligence aspires to spirituality. Spirituality aspires to God.

So the fifth movement is about religion. After the dark night of movement 4 with a lonely voice, movement 5 is a joyous choir which is life-affirming, because, as Jesus said, there is joy in heaven when a sinner repents. The angels sing that to be saved, you just have to kneel down and love God. But there is a naivete here, because angels don't face death, so they don't really speak to the human condition. Similarly, just being involved in a religion itself can cause someone to miss the point if it is just a ritual or communal gathering without leading to spirituality.

But with the story of Peter, there is an emergence in the symphony of feelings of guilt, and this brokenness is what leads to God. And a genuine encounter with God leads to the last movement, which is the encounter with the love of God.

At least that's how I see it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I can't help you. The Third isn't my favorite. The finale is magisterial, the middle movements are sort of random, and, without using any adjectives, the first movement reminds me of President Trump..


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> ...without using any adjectives, the first movement reminds me of President Trump..


Oh No!! Mahler #3/I is wonderful!! kind of sprawled out, but it's terrific music....nothing whatever in common with trump....
the Finale is one of the great slow movements of all time...mvtIII is excellent, too.


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## Elliott Carter (Dec 23, 2020)

Very interesting. Thank you for the thoughtful response.


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## Elliott Carter (Dec 23, 2020)

I see. Interesting. Thank you for sharing your insights. And what can I say... my tastes are different in the after-life.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkW said:


> (...) without using any adjectives, the first movement reminds me of President Trump..


  

Please note: 
Mahler came first and certainly didn't run for the job, or any TV appearances ... :lol:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Once I understand Mahler 3 was a symphony surrounding a cantata is made more sense for me. I never pay attention to his philosophizing or text messaging. It is often contradictory, as in the Symphony 2, or ridiculous, as in No. 8. Mahler was a great artist but as a man fairly confused about his sense of self and some of his beliefs. I see this played out more in his symphonies than his songs which are more direct and to the point.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

You ought to try to find this video:








It is an excellent guide to the work and all of its complexity. Interviews with many leading Mahler specialists, a complete performance. It's probably out of print, but it sure makes sense of this sprawling, monumental work.

I love this symphony, but it's hard to perform. Besides the huge orchestra, you need the choral forces and a solo singer. It's hard to convince the choral groups to come and rehearse then perform a 90 minute work that they are only in it for five minutes or so. The last time I did, the conductor bravely omitted those two movements and turned it into a 4-movement symphony. The audience loved it, no one complained.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> The last time I did, the conductor bravely omitted those two movements and turned it into a 4-movement symphony. The audience loved it, no one complained.


I often listen to it that way....sometimes just single mvts- I and VI


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> You ought to try to find this video:
> View attachment 148016
> 
> 
> ...


Ive always said its far too long. An edited 3rd sounds like heaven for me, mbhaub. :lol:


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

That's weird, even weirder that's it's apparently possible these days in places.

As far as I know, even Scherchen didn't make cuts in this symphony, like he would do with the 5th and 6th symphonies.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I always did think the inclusion of both Nietzsche and a Christian text in this symphony was bizarre. But I like to think of Mahler as a sort of “New Ager”; mixing and matching whatever beliefs he wanted to his own personal liking. We can find Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, agnosticism, pessimism, pantheism, optimism, humanism, etc. in much of his music if we look hard enough. But I’m like others; I’d be perfectly fine without those two movements in the 3rd.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I always did think the inclusion of both Nietzsche and a Christian text in this symphony was bizarre. But I like to think of Mahler as a sort of "New Ager"; mixing and matching whatever beliefs he wanted to his own personal liking. We can find Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, agnosticism, pessimism, pantheism, optimism, humanism, etc. in much of his music if we look hard enough. But I'm like others; I'd be perfectly fine without those two movements in the 3rd.


He really went overboard with that kind of thing with the eighth. Mahler often tries to cram too much in. With the third, I'm content with the final movement as a standalone and then read into it whatever...which no doubt would enrage Mahler.


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## perdido34 (Mar 11, 2015)

I highly recommend you check out recent episodes of Joshua Weilerstein's "Sticky Notes" podcast about Mahler 3 -- there are three episodes, all worth your time!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> That's weird, even weirder that's it's apparently possible these days in places.
> 
> As far as I know, even Scherchen didn't make cuts in this symphony, like he would do with the 5th and 6th symphonies.


In Mahler's time, the 2nd and 3rd were often performed with only a few movements. Mitropoulos' recording has a large cut, I think because of broadcast time restraints. But you're right - it is weird to play part of something nowadays.


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## Elliott Carter (Dec 23, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> The last time I did, the conductor bravely omitted those two movements and turned it into a 4-movement symphony. The audience loved it, no one complained.


That is probably the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. That's like staging Hamlet without the to be or not to be soliloquy. Honestly i would have a hard time not bursting out laughing at the transition from the 3rd mvmt to the 6th mvmt. Right from the dead Cuckoo to a hymn to spiritual love... seems legit lol.


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