# Kirill Petrenko & Berliner Philharmoniker: "Dawn of a new era"?



## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

"Dawn of a new era"? That's part of the title of a recent promo video BPO uploaded to YouTube.
Some of what I hear is quite good and energetic. 
What do you think?
Also, my brain is going blank on identifying the piece of music at featured at the beginning of the video --(Strauss ???) -- please identify (thx!).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The piece at the beginning is called "Tuning Up."

The piece after that is the beginning of the development section of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Typically over-the-top promo video. Some of the things said might make one think that the Rattle era was a failure ... except that the same 'things will be wonderful' statements were said in videos made when Rattle started, not to mention the gushing tribute videos at the end of his tenure.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> The piece after that is the beginning of the development section of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony.


That's it ... thx.
Well, Mr Petrenko has got some pretty tough competition in the recorded repertoire ... including (especially) his fellow Russians ...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

What is intriguing is that one of the first pieces that Petrenko did with the BPO (in 2009) was the Elgar 2nd symphony, not quite repertoire that one would expect.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

How did Petrenko land this gig? Chief conductor/music director (whatever this position is called) of the Berlin Philharmonic is a big deal! I haven't heard much of maestro Petrenko, but I guess he must be in the big leagues... big shoes to fill, in the case of Rattle, let alone his predecessors Abbado, Karajan... 

... anyway, I guess I'll watch the video now.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> How did Petrenko land this gig? Chief conductor/music director (whatever this position is called) of the Berlin Philharmonic is a big deal! I haven't heard much of maestro Petrenko, *but I guess he must be in the big leagues...* big shoes to fill, in the case of Rattle, let alone his predecessors Abbado, Karajan...
> 
> ... anyway, I guess I'll watch the video now.


No, he isn't! The ''weakest'' as name conductor, who has taken this place, in the history of BPO. Of course, we wish him (the Berliners) good luck.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Dimace said:


> No, he isn't! The ''weakest'' as name conductor, who has taken this place, in the history of BPO. Of course, we wish him (the Berliners) good luck.


Is this generally the consensus in your city? Was it a big shock when he was announced?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

He looks very exciting and also looks like he may be wound up as tight as an eight-day clock from what I’ve heard and seen from him. But I’m not sensing much unspoken praise in the background for Rattle from the orchestra members and they may be ready for a major change. I’m already worn out by some of Petrenko’s intensity and I wonder how it’s going to wear over the years. My choice would have been Paavo Järvi if he had been available.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> How did Petrenko land this gig? Chief conductor/music director (whatever this position is called) of the Berlin Philharmonic is a big deal! I haven't heard much of maestro Petrenko, but I guess he must be in the big leagues... big shoes to fill, in the case of Rattle, let alone his predecessors Abbado, Karajan...
> 
> ... anyway, I guess I'll watch the video now.


Yes, he did come up out of nowhere. Certainly a new one on me...and a pleasant surprise from the video samples I've seen. Rattle was not really my cup of tea ... despite being supported by the great BPO. 
Speaking of video samples, one can go thru quite a bit of morsels via BPO's digitalconcerthall.com

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concerts/conductor_kirill petrenko


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Difficult to really understand this appointment. I believe the original vote pitted Thielemann against Andris Nelsons, and nobody could break the resulting deadlock?

When Petrenko was elected, I thought they meant the young chap who had done those excellent Shostakovich recordings in Liverpool!

The Berlin Petrenko (!) has an interesting repertoire, so he could be really exciting as principal with the BPO. Indeed, I downloaded his Tchaikovsky 6th and it's very good, albeit not an obscure piece. I have his recordings of Josef Suk, and kudos for doing it, but they're not a patch on a whole host of Czech conductors, from Talich through to Pesek and Belohlavek.

I think this means I have his complete discography!?

He'll either be a wonderful breath of fresh air, or last five minutes. I sincerely hope the former.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

He didn't come out of nowhere, he has been a very highly regarded music director at the Bavarian State Opera since 2013 with consistent rave reviews, and conducted regularly at Bayreuth until he got p***ed at Thieleman and left. Prior to that he had been the MD at the Komische Oper in Berlin. He had been an occasional guest conductor at the BPO since 2006 and the musicians really liked him. At the time of the election there was Thieleman who had a lot of negatives and Nelsons who had made it clear that he was focusing (at the time) on Boston, so not interested. As to Rattle, my understanding is that the orchestra was quite ready to extend his contract but it was his choice to leave at that point feeling, as he had at Birmingham, that there comes a point where it is for the best for the orchestra.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

CnC Bartok said:


> I have his recordings of Josef Suk, and kudos for doing it, but they're not a patch on a whole host of Czech conductors, from Talich through to Pesek and Belohlavek.


True but they were done about 12 years ago and he was still a young whipper-snapper at the time!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I for one look forward very much to the Petrenko/BPO venture. That new Tchaikovsky 6th is one of the best I've ever encountered. If you haven't heard the actual cd that the BPO makes, you should - stunning sound, playing, conducting - it's all there. He's already shown a willingness to take on music others have ignored, like Elgar, Suk and recently the Schmidt 4th. I wish I could watch him rehearse, because he's relatively calm in performance and gets spectacular results - of course the BPO could play anything well. But what I really like is that he seems humble and there to serve the music. Unlike some others who seem to be there for vanity and to show off their heads of hair. If you don't already, an annual subscription to the Digital Concert Hall the BPO runs is money very well spent!


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Yes, Digital Concert Hall has been revelatory. Their most recent concert was televised on Saturday. It was Beethoven's 9th played outdoors in a park conducted by Petrenko.

This lengthy commercial for Petrenko preceded it and we almost thought we had erroneously selected something other than the live concert, which has always started on time.

It was hard not to read some frustration aimed at Rattle in some of the excited anticipation and praise expressed for Petrenko, which referred to getting back to Berlin's roots and that kind of thing.

If anyone knows of anything like Digital Concert Hall by any other major orchestra or music organization, I'd like to hear about it.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> True but they were done about 12 years ago and he was still a young whipper-snapper at the time!


Recorded 2002, 2004 and 2006, so even younger than your original suggestion! They're not at all bad, but "others are better"

As I hoped to say, this is interesting repertoire, which bodes well, unless he was contractually obliged by CPO to fill a hole in the catalogue? I don't want to start sounding like a certain someone else, but Suk's music has been the almost exclusive territory of the Czech conductors I mentioned (and Mackerras, who's an honorary Bohemian!) and it damned well shouldn't be. He's a fabulous composer, and his big four orchestral pieces are as good as anything from that era. It's is just a bit disappointing that this rightful encroachment by an outsider wasn't more successful. 

Maybe Asians or - God forbid! - women might take him on? :devil:

(Actually, being serious for a brief moment, JoAnn Falletta did a damned good Raduz a Mahulena on Naxos......)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Detroit Symphony, Gothenburg Symphony (gsoplay.se). Also check the Philharmonie de Paris, London Symphony (lso.co.uk)


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Becca said:


> ^^ Detroit Symphony, Gothenburg Symphony (gsoplay.se). Also check the Philharmonie de Paris, London Symphony (lso.co.uk)


Thank you. I think the Vienna State Opera as well.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

He's a bit theatrical on the podium for my taste. But the BPO certainly sounded nice.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

CnC Bartok said:


> Difficult to really understand this appointment. I believe the original vote pitted Thielemann against Andris Nelsons, and nobody could break the resulting deadlock?
> 
> When Petrenko was elected, I thought they meant the young chap who had done those excellent Shostakovich recordings in Liverpool!
> 
> ...


There are also a Rachmaninov PC2 with Dejan Lazić and the LPO (Channel Classics), and a Lulu blu-ray with the Bayerische Staatsoper (BelAir Classiques).

His Pathétique features some fantastic playing from the orchestra, and overall a very good Pathétique, but I'm more impressed by some other conductors, e.g. the other Petrenko.

The Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings don't seem to like to pour out live recordings like some other orchestras, but I do wish Kirill Petrenko would start making more records (in good sound!)


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> Difficult to really understand this appointment. I believe the original vote pitted Thielemann against Andris Nelsons, and nobody could break the resulting deadlock?
> 
> When Petrenko was elected, I thought they meant the young chap who had done those excellent Shostakovich recordings in Liverpool!
> 
> ...


My mind is blown, I coulda sworn that was the same guy. In that case, I've heard nothing of this guy at all. Either way, the musicians are clearly passionate about him, so I wish him luck.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kiki said:


> ...The Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings don't seem to like to pour out live recordings like some other orchestras, but I do wish Kirill Petrenko would start making more records (in good sound!)


He might have that opportunity except that CDs are selling like, well, cassettes!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Kiki said:


> The *Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings don't seem to like to pour out live recordings like some other orchestras,* but I do wish Kirill Petrenko would start making more records (in good sound!)


For which we may be duly thankful. Petrenko has made it clear that he doesn't see the need to make recordings for the sake of doing so, only if he feels that he has something useful to 'say'.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^...and that is probably the reason why so many know so little about him. Those he works with do know about him and that's what counts.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Going a bit OT ... but about the "Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings " .... have you noticed how the engineers will often spotlight instruments (like flute player during a cadenza)? I like this _effect_. And, yes, it does remind one of classic Decca or (especially) Phase-4 recordings. 
That said, the spotlighted instrument with a long-shot of orchestra (in video) is a strange experience.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> He's a bit theatrical on the podium for my taste. .


Possibly ... but watching JUST the baton ... very fluid and organic. 
Also, you can just choose to listen. E.g., currently, I've got BPO playing in another browser tab ... and TC open in THIS tab


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

13hm13 said:


> Going a bit OT ... but about the "Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings " .... have you noticed how the engineers will often spotlight instruments (like flute player during a cadenza)? I like this _effect_. And, yes, it does remind one of classic Decca or (especially) Phase-4 recordings.
> That said, the spotlighted instrument with a long-shot of orchestra (in video) is a strange experience.


During live broadcasts they _visually_ spotlight various members continuously. But it sounds like you're saying they boost the _audio_ for the flute in the cadenza on these recordings? Is that something recording engineers do routinely, play with the dominance of various instrumental sounds?


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Open Book said:


> During live broadcasts they _visually_ spotlight various members continuously. But it sounds like you're saying they boost the _audio_ for the flute in the cadenza on these recordings? Is that something recording engineers do routinely, play with the dominance of various instrumental sounds?


I saw/heard that a few times in various BPO videos. Not sure how often they use that technique ... or whether it's just in the video stream. 
Overall, and in any case, the audio AND video fidelity of BPO productions is very high.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Back to Mr Petrenko at the BPO ... not sure what he's trying to convey with "Look Ma, No Hands..."






_Maybe:_ I've trained these guys so good, the leash is optional


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

13hm13 said:


> Possibly ... but watching JUST the baton ... very fluid and organic.
> Also, you can just choose to listen. E.g., currently, I've got BPO playing in another browser tab ... and TC open in THIS tab


Totally. The sound is what matters. I will gladly listen to recordings as opposed to videos.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

13hm13 said:


> Back to Mr Petrenko at the BPO ... not sure what he's trying to convey with "Look Ma, No Hands..."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Not to be disrespectful, but I think they will regret his choice... Tense, tense, tense, hyper, hyper, hyper... exciting, even thrilling, but tension filled. It sounds like he's pushing the sound rather than letting it happen. Something can still be exciting and vibrant and yet more relaxed and not as tense. I'm sorry that I haven't heard any excerpts that I've really cared for. The excitement sounds somewhat tense and forced. The performances of the Berlin Philharmonic that I've enjoyed have been under the baton of Paavo Järvi.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

13hm13 said:


> Going a bit OT ... but about the "Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings " .... have you noticed how the engineers will often spotlight instruments (like flute player during a cadenza)? I like this _effect_. And, yes, it does remind one of classic Decca or (especially) Phase-4 recordings.
> That said, the spotlighted instrument with a long-shot of orchestra (in video) is a strange experience.


Sure they do.... fortunately they don't go over the top so it's not as extreme and certainly less on-your-face than, say, Andris Nelsons' Shostakovitch on DG.

Another problem I find with concert video is that, while the camera angle changes all the time, sometime you are seeing the violins on the right, but the sound is still coming from the left. I find that a weird experience.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Open Book said:


> During live broadcasts they _visually_ spotlight various members continuously. But it sounds like you're saying they boost the _audio_ for the flute in the cadenza on these recordings? Is that something recording engineers do routinely, play with the dominance of various instrumental sounds?


Decca used to do that routinely, esp with the Mehta/LAPO recordings from the 60s on...other labels do it as well...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Every new Music Director of an orchestra represents "the dawn of a new era." The rest is just marketing.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I have high hopes for the guy. From what little footage I've seen, he appears to be very talented. His baton technique is great, and he seems to really know the music well. He also has a very intense face, a genetic boon for any conductor :lol: 

However, I do understand @Larkenfield's criticism, especially in regard to that Beethoven clip. He's really cranking up the voltage here, and I'm not sure if it's sustainable. So I can see it going either way. I doubt there will be any regret around his appointment, per se, but whether he will really last, or live up to the standards of his illustrious predecessors, is a different question. Anyway, I will be looking forward to any recordings.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Decca used to do that routinely, esp with the Mehta/LAPO recordings from the 60s on...other labels do it as well...


In an article in audiophile magazine The Absolute Sound (1993), it was noted that for Mehta/LAPO sessions, Decca engineers would sometimes use reinforcement (PA) speakers to amplify certain instruments (like in rock concert).
Those are some of my favorite classical recordings. But, I'm not a purist (i.e., ideal seat: a bit off-center from the orchestra, two-thirds of the way back).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Part of the reason regarding Mehta/LAPO recordings is that Decca couldn't find a good recording venue and ended up using Royce Hall on the UCLA campus which at the time had very poor acoustics ... albeit better than anything else they could find! Apparently they had to play a lot of games to get the results to be half-decent.

P.S. Royce Hall had not been designed for music performance.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Becca said:


> Part of the reason regarding Mehta/LAPO recordings is that Decca couldn't find a good recording venue and ended up using Royce Hall on the UCLA campus which at the time had very poor acoustics ... albeit better than anything else they could find! Apparently they had to play a lot of games to get the results to be half-decent.
> 
> P.S. Royce Hall had not been designed for music performance.


OK, I must be really naive. Don't orchestras usually record in same concert hall they do their live concerts in?

I guess they call them studio recordings for a reason, don't they? I can see a soloist or small chamber group in a studio but can't picture a whole orchestra crowded into a studio where the engineers must heavily doctor the sound that comes out, playing with balances, blending, etc.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It all depends on the acoustic qualities of the hall, one that is appropriate for concerts may be totally wrong for recording where there is no audience. The LAPO's hall at that time, the Chandler Pavillion, was a multi-purpose concert, opera and ballet venue, and it was never that great sound-wise. There were some halls that were best when you took out half the seats from the main floor and put the orchestra there. The Berlin Philharmonie is quite good as a recording venue but in the past many of the BPO's recordings were done in the Jesus-Christus-Kirche.

As to studios, the EMI Abbey Road studios were the site of many well known orchestral recordings...


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

13hm13 said:


> Back to Mr Petrenko at the BPO ... not sure what he's trying to convey with "Look Ma, No Hands..."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is really quite a remarkable amount of tympani. Too much, even? And I'm a big fan of a booming tympani.

I will say, though, I like what I'm hearing overall. Brisk but not thin.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_How did Petrenko land this gig? Chief conductor/music director (whatever this position is called) of the Berlin Philharmonic is a big deal! I haven't heard much of maestro Petrenko, but I guess he must be in the big leagues... big shoes to fill, in the case of Rattle, let alone his predecessors Abbado, Karajan... _

Petrenko has become a relatively big name after making some recordings that have been praised in classical music press. I think he is in similar position as Rattle when he took over BPO -- somewhat well known but not considered a top conductor everywhere.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

larold said:


> Petrenko has become a relatively big name after making some recordings that have been praised in classical music press. I think he is in similar position as Rattle when he took over BPO -- somewhat well known but not considered a top conductor everywhere.


Take a look at Petrenko's track record at the Bavarian State Opera, audience, box office and critical. What really matters was the opinions of the orchestra after working with Rattle in the '90s and Petrenko. During the earlier selection process there were a few conductors in the running but it came down to a choice between Rattle and Barenboim.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

^ Barenboim would have been a good pick, I think, though maybe a bit old for the job by now.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Compare and contrast ...

Tchaikovsky: Symphony No.6 "Pathétique" / Georg Solti (BPO, 1994)






... to same passage ...

Petrenko (BPO, 23 March 2017)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

13hm13 said:


> Compare and contrast ...
> 
> Tchaikovsky: Symphony No.6 "Pathétique" / Georg Solti (BPO, 1994)
> 
> ...


the Petrenko sounds thin, lacking in bass...the string sound is thin....in neither case are the trumpets loud enough [rotary trumpets inadequate]...try Reiner [!!] or Mravinsky...
of course, i listened on my cell phone, which has rather limited sonic capability....


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Kirill Petrenko is a very shy and retiring man and he doesn't give interviews . He doesn't make commercial recordings for major record labels and his performances are primarily streamed . 
I've heard only isolated bits of his performances on the internet but he appears to be a remarkably gifted and hard working conductor . 
He is said to be adored by audiences , musicians and singers at Munich's Bavarian State opera . 
You don't get to be chief conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic without making an extremely favorable impression on the members of the orchestra as they choose their chief conductors and are a self governing entity . 
I have the feeling that things are looking good for this combination .


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

superhorn said:


> He doesn't make commercial recordings for major record labels and his performances are primarily streamed .


Not sure how many commercial recordings of KP are out there. With him, the BPO may have a different approach to marketing: putting many of their eggs in a few but very fancy baskets ...






... that is quite a PACKAGE for _one_ opus.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> the Petrenko sounds thin, lacking in bass...the string sound is thin....in neither case are the trumpets loud enough [rotary trumpets inadequate]...try Reiner [!!] or Mravinsky...
> of course, i listened on my cell phone, which has rather limited sonic capability....


What are rotary trumpets? Are they using the wrong trumpets?

At around 2:00 in the OP's video, the pink-shirted member of the orchestra (violist) decries Tchaikovsky being turned into "Hollywood" music by other conductors, implying Petrenko doesn't.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Open Book said:


> What are rotary trumpets? Are they using the wrong trumpets?


Not if you ask the Berlin Philharmonic trumpeters! However if you ask someone who thinks that the Chicago Symphony/Reiner/Solti etc. is perfection, then... 

Rotary trumpets look as though they are being held sideways:
"Pistons permit a trumpet to produce a sound that stands out above the other musical instruments that it is accompanying. On the other hand, trumpets that are fitted with rotary valves produce a mellow-like sound that harmonizes well with other wind instruments it is accompanying."


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Becca said:


> Not if you ask the Berlin Philharmonic trumpeters! However if you ask someone who thinks that the Chicago Symphony/Reiner/Solti etc. is perfection, then...
> 
> Rotary trumpets look as though they are being held sideways:
> "Pistons permit a trumpet to produce a sound that stands out above the other musical instruments that it is accompanying. On the other hand, trumpets that are fitted with rotary valves produce a mellow-like sound that harmonizes well with other wind instruments it is accompanying."


I wondered why they hold their trumpets sideways. I thought that was a European thing, the Boston Symphony trumpeters don't do that. Then I noticed the valves look different from what a jazz trumpeter would be pressing from the top. I never noticed that the sound of Berlin's trumpets was any mellower than others', but I'll try to listen more carefully.

Berlin always sounds like perfection to me. Any great orchestra sounds like perfection though they may differ from each other.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Wonderful. We've got two postmodern composers named John Adams, and now we have two conductors named Petrenko.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> Not if you ask the Berlin Philharmonic trumpeters! However if you ask someone who thinks that the Chicago Symphony/Reiner/Solti etc. is perfection, then...


A lot of people find the Chicago trumpet section to be perfection - it set the tone, internationally, to a very high degree...



> Rotary trumpets look as though they are being held sideways:
> "Pistons permit a trumpet to produce a sound that stands out above the other musical instruments that it is accompanying. On the other hand, trumpets that are fitted with rotary valves produce a mellow-like sound that harmonizes well with other wind instruments it is accompanying."


right, quite a good summation, except I'd say rotary instruments <<blend well>>, rather than "harmonize well"...with piston trumpets, the notes also seem to "pop" more easily, have a clearer, more definite articulation, which is a big factor in projection of sound.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

13hm13 said:


> Compare and contrast ...
> 
> Tchaikovsky: Symphony No.6 "Pathétique" / Georg Solti (BPO, 1994)
> 
> ...


Solti by a landslide for all-around depth, excitement and musicality.  Rotary trumpets are used in _both_ examples, and, IMO, they sound plenty bright enough. Kudos to Tchaikowsky for his thrilling score! Even using the same type of rotary trumpet, the Solti performance sounds brighter but I'm glad it's no brighter than it is or it might be too brassy.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Wonderful. We've got two postmodern composers named John Adams, and now we have two conductors named Petrenko.


As one gets older, it get harder and harder to remember names, so don't complain too much, Ken!


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