# Rossinian Overture



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Here is my 2nd orchestral piece. My most tonal piece


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Why did you start a new thread for it?


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## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

the other becoming too long? :O perhaps...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It starts off really strong imo, then the lighter (almost Mozartian) section doesn't really fit well within the piece and the transition into it doesn't feel right to me either. Then throughout the rest of the piece, you interject what feel like undeveloped ideas that you wanted to use right away so you forced them into this overture.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

This piece sounds like an argument between elephant and worm... it seems other animals enter later 
Not great, but not too bad. There are some weird harmonies (intentional or not) that makes piece not completely tonal.


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

nikola said:


> This piece sounds like an argument between elephant and worm... it seems other animals enter later
> Not great, but not too bad. There are some weird harmonies (intentional or not) that makes piece not completely tonal.


The piece is not good. But which harmonies are you suggesting which undermine the "tonal"-ness of the work? I heard none...


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Why do you not modulate to any other key, such as the dominant? Nor even the relative minor? Is there any Rossini overture you know of which does not modulate to another key? Movement to another key is a basic staple of any Western piece of music.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

dzc4627 said:


> The piece is not good. But which harmonies are you suggesting which undermine the "tonal"-ness of the work? I heard none...


It isn't good, but I try to be gentle. I'm dr. Jekyll today. Some things in piece just doesn't work. Harmonies and melodies seems off sometimes like they were just put together in weird way.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I enjoyed it! Interesting, dynamic... The only complaint is slight disconnection between different parts of it, but generally I enjoyed it quite a bit. There are many good parts and interesting ideas.


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## E Cristobal Poveda (Jul 12, 2017)

Tonal music isn't really your forte, phil.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

ZJovicic said:


> I enjoyed it! Interesting, dynamic... The only complaint is slight disconnection between different parts of it, but generally I enjoyed it quite a bit. There are many good parts and interesting ideas.


Hey thanks! I quite like it myself. I did tweak a couple of transitions since, as they were more of place holders at the time.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

dzc4627 said:


> Why do you not modulate to any other key, such as the dominant? Nor even the relative minor? Is there any Rossini overture you know of which does not modulate to another key? Movement to another key is a basic staple of any Western piece of music.


I have quite a few chord changes already. I was afraid of going too far with a modulation to another key, parts of the intro is in the relative minor of the other sections, which are in the major. But I'll look at it again.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Why did you start a new thread for it?


To get more feedback. I'm stretching out my boundaries.


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## pkoi (Jun 10, 2017)

I would pay more attention to sonata form. The Italian in Algiers (or any other piece from that era more or less), which you refer in your title, is in sonata-form. Sonata form above all is a construction of different key areas developed around a two-part reprise, which tonal plan usually is as follows: 

I-V ://x-I ://

In the early 19th century, one could already write pieces that omit the reprises but the construction behind it is still there. The thematic elements of the sonata-form build around to this tonal plan as follows: 

1.st Reprise - The Exposition 

The tonic in the beginning represents the primary-theme. This is usually constructed using some standard small-scale forms such as the period- or sentence-form. After this, beginning in the key of the tonic, a transition usually follows. It's tonal function is to depart from the key of the tonic and establish a half cadence on the new tonic (which is usually in the key of the dominant, or in minor pieces in the relative major). Very often the transition ends on a rhetoric pause. After this there can be a short melodic lead-in melody or the piece can go straight into the secondary theme zone, which is in the key of the dominant. The function of this secondary theme is to establish the new key. Usually the musical texture in the secondary theme is a bit contrasting to the primary theme, most commonly in a singing-style and in piano-dynamic. After a while, a perfect authentic cadence appears and the dynamics usually turn to forte and the musical texture turns into a brilliant style (large register, dense movement etc.) This usually ends the exposition.

This is followed by a development, which can be, like the name suggest, a development of material from the exposition, usually from the primary-theme zone. It can also be simply an area with ambiguous or multiple tonal centers.

The recapitulation in short is repeating the rotation that was presented in the exposition + ending the song.

This information is probably something you're already familiar but I think revising the sonata structure is wise when writing a piece in that form.

Your song at the moment only deals within the exposition. You have a slow introduction from 00:00-00:58, Primary theme zone from 00:58-01:24; transition from 01:24-01:51; lead in melody to the secondary theme 01:51-02:04; secondary theme zone 02:04-04:04 (I'm not sure, but you probably have a repeat sign, since the secondary theme seems to repeat more or less unaltered tow times) and a closing zone 04:04 till the end. All this is in the key of the tonic.

I think the thematic material is already clear enough to distinguish these parts from each other, so good job. Next thing to do IMO is to add the first level default-modulations and your piece immediately will sound much more convincing. Make the transition end in half cadence of the dominant; transpose your secondary theme and the closing zone to the key of the dominant (I would also remove the repetition of the secondary theme, seems unnecessary). Also, write the rest of the music (the development and the recapitulation), this alone is not enough to make a convincing ouverture, but a good start.

Keep us posted on how the piece evolves, I'm interested in hearing the final result!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

thanks! I never looked at a Rossini score and just based on my hearing and memory of how it went in general.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> To get more feedback. I'm stretching out my boundaries.


Good for you, don't let the negative comments get you down. You have to fail 1000x before you learn how to ride a bike, as I'm sure you understand well.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Here is the revised version, with the modulation, the transition to the first key change gave me the most headache, I haven't heard it after a break yet, but it seems to work from a few listens.

I checked out some Rossini scores and relistened to some. He doesn't use the true sonata form, there is no development section, which is how he keeps it easy going. But does restate themes in the alternate key.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Good for you, don't let the negative comments get you down. You have to fail 1000x before you learn how to ride a bike, as I'm sure you understand well.


It was really only the form that was wrong. But I got some good response from some people on the phrasing, humour aspect, etc. But a challenge is always good.

Here is a revised version with what I think is a much better key transition starting around 1:50.


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