# Applause



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

On TV I saw a performance in the US of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony. After the 3rd movement, the audience applauded. The conductor (Ozawa, I think), clearly annoyed, gestured the audience to stop. 

I later saw a performance of the same piece from Moscow. The audience sat, frozen.

Applause after the first movement of a concerto seems common.

Do you think applause should ALWAYS wait until the end?

In which countries are audiences the most expressive with applause?


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

Aurelian said:


> On TV I saw a performance in the US of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony. After the 3rd movement, the audience applauded. The conductor (Ozawa, I think), clearly annoyed, gestured the audience to stop.
> 
> I later saw a performance of the same piece from Moscow. The audience sat, frozen.
> 
> ...


I believe it is tradition to clap after the 3rd movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th, as an exception among the repertoire.

The countries where people applaud most enthusiastically are mostly in America and Asia.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Applause should be withheld for the end of the piece. 

Speaking of concert applause, there is a famous example toward the end of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony, there's a false ending and so many times audience members start applauding prematurely, just before the buildup to the real ending. Too bad many of them aren't that familiar with the music.

Then there's the simply rude audiences, such as at the Metropolitan Opera who applaud before the final music is over such as at Gotterdammerung or Walküre. Drives me insane!!!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Aurelian said:


> In which countries are audiences the most expressive with applause?


Here is your answer:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Not applauding until the end of an act was an ukase from Wagner. Granted, opera had / has the convention of applauding after any aria which excited the audience. But Wagner's "rule" spread throughout the music community, audiences, and it is now the general convention to not applaud between movements of even a symphonic work.

Until then, audiences applauded between movements, programs mixed different numbers between movements of symphonies and concerti!

If it has held, the Russian convention for opera is no applause until the very last scene, end of opera! Then, though, they have a stylized applause, slow, heavy, and coming in waves for up to twenty minutes at the end of a performance.

Conventions throughout the western cultures is to not applaud until the end of the work (symphonic, chamber, etc.) 
Opera goers still applaud after any aria they want, and ballet audiences also applaud after a solo, anywhere in the scene or act.

A lot of opera was written to accommodate applause after an aria, there being some 'filler' where just such an event is anticipated.

"Expressive with applause?" Levels: extreme and enthusiastic, including calls of bravo! Strong but not ecstatic, and I think everyone can tell when applause is merely a token and more polite than marking any real enthusiasm.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm fine with anything except applause during the movements.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I stopped going to orchestral concerts in Tampa for just that reason. They applaud after every movement.
Once I saw a flute player hurry in during the performance. She picked up her part with her jacket still on.
If it was a big 5 orchestra, she probably would have been fired.


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I stopped going to orchestral concerts in Tampa for just that reason. They applaud after every movement.
> Once I saw a flute player hurry in during the performance. She picked up her part with her jacket still on.
> If it was a big 5 orchestra, she probably would have been fired.


Crazy. I have never seen anything like that before.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

stevederekson said:


> Crazy. I have never seen anything like that before.


Nothing like subscribing to a "provincial" orchestra. If that wasn't enough, before each piece was played, some person always came out on stage first to explain each piece before it was played!! I'm not talking Varese here; things like overture to Die Meistersinger, Beethoven's 7th Symphony, etc; Coming from NYC concerts, I found this unbearable.

I really couldn't take it anymore.


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Nothing like subscribing to a "provincial" orchestra. If that wasn't enough, before each piece was played, some person always came out on stage first to explain each piece before it was played!! I'm not talking Varese here; things like overture to Die Meistersinger, Beethoven's 7th Symphony, etc; Coming from NYC concerts, I found this unbearable.
> 
> I really couldn't take it anymore.


I can't help but to LOL.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

What most people don't know is that when you hear people applauding between movements, what you actually hear is only one clap. The rest is just me slapping whoever applauded.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

applause should be at the end of fourth movement EXCEPT with Tchaikovskys 6th, people usually applaud after the third movement, so that you can feel the silence after the very emotional and painfull 4th movement


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

I have not come across it, but applause at the end of the 3rd mvmt. of Tchaikovsky's 6th makes little sense to me. What is the applause for? The loud, pompous fanfare that ends the march? The entire design of this work is that there is no jubilant, joyful climax, rather a devastating evaporation of sound into silence which brings a heartbreaking symphony to its conclusion.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't mind applause after the first movement of a traditional 3 or 4 movement concerto. That seems passable. Applause between movements of a symphony, no.

I saw Britten's "Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Purcell" (Young Person's Guide) and the finale section is so energetic and dynamic that the audience couldn't hold their applause. They started clapping while the final drawn out chord was still sounding and then burst when it was officially over. Something like that is hard to contain. There's just so much excitement, the crowd was just so caught up and invested in the performance.

Also, some people just make mistakes if they don't know the piece, didn't look at the playbill to see the structure or number of movements, etc. I've seen people clap at the end of the March to the Scaffold, but I think that's more due to folks thinking it's the end of the symphony.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

Skilmarilion said:


> I have not come across it, but applause at the end of the 3rd mvmt. of Tchaikovsky's 6th makes little sense to me. What is the applause for? The loud, pompous fanfare that ends the march? The entire design of this work is that there is no jubilant, joyful climax, rather a devastating evaporation of sound into silence which brings a heartbreaking symphony to its conclusion.


yeah and thats why I understand it is unappropiate to applaud after the last movement, it has to be really silent
Ive been to the pathetique two times and it's a wonderfull experience


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## SteveSherman (Jan 9, 2014)

About 40 years ago I heard Fischer-Dieskau sing a recital in Royce Hall on the UCLA campus. After the final song the audience started to applaud before the pianist finished playing. F-D gestured for them to stop and then, despite thundrous and long applause, declined to sing an encore.

I've seen Parsifal numerous times in Bayreuth over the last 35 years (since I moved to Munich). Traditionally there was no applause after the first act; attempts to clap would invariably be hissed down. This is true in many other German houses but at the performance at the Salzburg Easter Festival this past year (which I saw on TV) there was enthusiastic applause after the first act, to my great surprise.

Actually I've never understood why we show our approval of the most perfectly organized sound of which humanity is capable by creating random noise.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

SteveSherman said:


> I've seen Parsifal numerous times in Bayreuth over the last 35 years (since I moved to Munich). Traditionally there was no applause after the first act; attempts to clap would invariably be hissed down.


I believe this tradition comes from Wagner's failed attempt to explain to a Bayreuth audience that he would prefer that they save their applause for the end of the act (which they mistook for a request that they wait until the end of the _opera_).



SteveSherman said:


> Actually I've never understood why we show our approval of the most perfectly organized sound of which humanity is capable by creating random noise.


You would prefer that we sing fugues back at them?

My local symphony explicitly requests that the audience not applaud until the end of a piece "so that audience members can enjoy the silence between movements". Some people try anyway, possibly out of ignorance of the difference between the end of a movement and the end of a symphony.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

It's the noise DURING the movements/acts that bothers me.
sheeeeesh


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

As far as I know, it used to be common to applaud after every movement. Nowadays it is not, and I don't know when this change happened.

I think these days, such premature applause often happens because there are a few people in the audience for whom it is their first classical concert and they don't even realize there are more than one movement. Once a few people start clapping, lots of people will join in, including even people who know better. 

I don't think one should become too annoyed about it: surely we WANT more people to attend classical concerts? So perhaps we should make them feel welcome, and just explain the conventions later? I often see people worrying that classical music is dying, while in the same breath driving off those who are new to it. 

I do get very annoyed, mind you, when an audience starts applauding, and even worse, utter piercing whistles, before the end of a piece, whether it be a movement or the whole work. It irritates me even when they do so in pop music. What the hell is the point of a concert if instead of listening to the music, you drown it out with applause? 

Anecdote: I once saw a performance of Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra on TV. With the last piece, the audience started clapping a good minute or two before the end, and Daniel Barenboim just barely managed to contain the situation by frantically waving his one hand at the audience while pointedly conducting with the other. Now in such music one may forgive the audience!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I was at a Takacs String Quartet concert a few months ago where the audience burst into applause (me too!) after the first movement of a Haydn quartet. We couldn't help ourselves! The way they played it!

The players didn't look a bit unhappy at the interruption.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

People find it a sin to applaud whilst coughing up a lung between movements is for some reason, generally accepted.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I have the American premiere performance of David Oistrakh doing the Shostakovich Violin Concerto #1, live with the NY Philharmonic/Mitropoulos from 1956 and the first movement is virtually unlistenable from all the intense coughing.
To me coughing means boredom and some of the responsibility is Shostakovich's. He composed a violin concerto with 11 minutes of slow, depressing gloom as the first movement.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I have the American premiere performance of David Oistrakh doing the Shostakovich Violin Concerto #1, live with the NY Philharmonic/Mitropoulos from 1956 and the first movement is virtually unlistenable from all the intense coughing.
> To me coughing means boredom and some of the responsibility is Shostakovich's. He composed a violin concerto with 11 minutes of slow, depressing gloom as the first movement.


Well, as DSCH originally composed this work 'for the drawer' perhaps he thought it may never be played publicly anyway. However, those wet, rasping Belomor-induced coughs are something else compared to dry, rasping Lucky Strike-induced ones...


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

SteveSherman said:


> Actually I've never understood why we show our approval of the most perfectly organized sound of which humanity is capable by creating random noise.


As most music we hear now is from studio recordings we are used to not having to either applaud or listen to other people applauding, unlike people from before the 20th century. Indeed we are far used to just lisening to music alone without any other distractions. And that may not be too bad a thing.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

How about Roman-era applause? Seutonius describes how in the theatre one set of people clapped with flat hands, another with cupped hands while a third group hummed like bees!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Well, as DSCH originally composed this work 'for the drawer' perhaps he thought it may never be played publicly anyway. However, those wet, rasping Belomor-induced coughs are something else compared to dry, rasping Lucky Strike-induced ones...


Either way, I prefer listening to music at home. Can't tolerate all the distractions and fighting for the use of one of the armrests.


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)

I understand that applauses in the middle of a piece can be disturbing but we can't forget that applauses are sign of appreciation and being annoyed by some one who compliments with you, it sound very pompous.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Nothing like subscribing to a "provincial" orchestra. If that wasn't enough, before each piece was played, some person always came out on stage first to explain each piece before it was played!! I'm not talking Varese here; things like overture to Die Meistersinger, Beethoven's 7th Symphony, etc; Coming from NYC concerts, I found this unbearable.
> 
> I really couldn't take it anymore.


This is where that scheduled pre-concert talk comes in perfectly: those who wish it show up a bit early get that intro / info as wanted, while later, the concert goes without such interruption.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> How about Roman-era applause? Seutonius describes how in the theatre one set of people clapped with flat hands, another with cupped hands while a third group hummed like bees!


I like it ~ a lot!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

starry said:


> As most music we hear now is from studio recordings we are used to not having to either applaud or listen to other people applauding, unlike people from before the 20th century. Indeed we are far used to just lisening to music alone without any other distractions. And that may not be too bad a thing.


I've caught myself applauding recorded music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

The nose said:


> I understand that applauses in the middle of a piece can be disturbing but we can't forget that applauses are sign of appreciation and being annoyed by some one who compliments with you, it sound very pompous.


Turning up and paying money are signs of appreciation too. And applause is as much a convention as a sign of sincere appreciation I feel.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

starry said:


> Turning up and paying money are signs of appreciation too. And applause is as much a convention as a sign of sincere appreciation I feel.


I turn up and pay my taxes every year but I've never applauded the IRS. I think it's best to err on the side of caution when unfamiliar with your surroundings. I find the most annoying applause to be 10 seconds before the conclusion of the American National Anthem. That, plus the screaming and cheering. I don't know where this trend began but it annoys me to no end.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

PetrB said:


> This is where that scheduled pre-concert talk comes in perfectly: those who wish it show up a bit early, the concert goes without such interruptions.


You think they would have thought of that. Seems like they assume everyone in Tampa must be musical novices.


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)

starry said:


> Turning up and paying money are signs of appreciation too. And applause is as much a convention as a sign of sincere appreciation I feel.


It's true that sometimes applause are conventionals. It's the sad side of the ambience in much classic concert. I have often the feeling that many people hear classical music only beacause it make them fell smart or for wear the fur and drink champagne.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

http://glenngould.ca/articles/2010/3/22/nailing-shut-the-coughin-gpaadak-as-the-first-step-to-improv.html


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's a "status" thing for some. No doubt about it. It's like many folks going to the American Football Championship Game called the "Superbowl". When the camera shows the fans, so many of them are inattentive, continuing the love affair with their cell phones; oblivious to the game.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

Its like when you're really happy or just thought of a brilliant idea or have just enjoyed some wonderfull sensation and you feel like clapping your hands together as hard as possible, I think applauding is derived from that natural instinct, though I must admit it has become standardized and convention and maybe even a bit insincere sometimes (like 'polite' applause, I mean you might still appreciate it and be thankfull but you can find it a bit fake when you clap just because you don't want to look ungratefull or because you don't want to hurt the orchestra's feelings)
Also I think after an epic or exciting ending like dvorak 9 when you start clapping without having to think "oh this was great so I have to show that by clapping) it is more natural to applaud than for instance with a more quiet emotional ending at which you only want to cry


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I have the American premiere performance of David Oistrakh doing the Shostakovich Violin Concerto #1, live with the NY Philharmonic/Mitropoulos from 1956 and the first movement is virtually unlistenable from all the intense coughing.
> To me coughing means boredom and some of the responsibility is Shostakovich's. He composed a violin concerto with 11 minutes of slow, depressing gloom as the first movement.


That first movement is great, but it is difficult to pull off. Takes a tremendous long-term sense of line and drama. I first fell in love with that movement at work, a performance by Maxim Vengerov over the radio. I stopped what I was doing after the first minute and was held enthralled to the end. Bottom line: It is easy to kill with a mediocre performance. Hear a really good one and you might get it.

As for applause after the third movement of the Pathetique: What an obnoxious custom, if that's what it is. Takes the intensity out of the beginning of the finale.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> That first movement is great, but it is difficult to pull off. Takes a tremendous long-term sense of line and drama. I first fell in love with that movement at work, a performance by Maxim Vengerov over the radio. I stopped what I was doing after the first minute and was held enthralled to the end. Bottom line: It is easy to kill with a mediocre performance. Hear a really good one and you might get it.
> 
> As for applause after the third movement of the Pathetique: What an obnoxious custom, if that's what it is. Takes the intensity out of the beginning of the finale.


Regarding the Pathetique: I've heard conductors play the fourth movement "attacca" to drown the idiots out.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Regarding the Pathetique: I've heard conductors play the fourth movement "attacca" to drown the idiots out.


yeah thats the best way for conductors to show they don't want the applauding in the middle. You know what, they should put the preference of the conductor whether they want aplauding after the third or fourth movement in the programs, so that it becomes kindoff "a part of the show" and the conductor can choose for himself what he likes better emotionally

Maybe the best in my opinion would be not applauding until at least 2 minutes after the whole symphony is over


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

lupinix said:


> Its like when you're really happy or just thought of a brilliant idea or have just enjoyed some wonderfull sensation and you feel like clapping your hands together as hard as possible, I think applauding is derived from that natural instinct


I'm really not sure it's a natural instinct. Some cultures probably show happiness in other ways.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lupinix said:


> yeah thats the best way for conductors to show they don't want the applauding in the middle. You know what, they should put the preference of the conductor whether they want aplauding after the third or fourth movement in the programs, so that it becomes kindoff "a part of the show" and the conductor can choose for himself what he likes better emotionally
> 
> Maybe the best in my opinion would be not applauding until at least 2 minutes after the whole symphony is over


One conductor I heard do the Pathetique, not only played the fourth movement attacca, but played the introductory phrase what seemed like fff! If you have to do that, then just don't program the symphony.

Another awkward applause moment in Tchaikovsky, the false ending of the 4th movement of his 5th Symphony. I've also heard one conductor who refused to pause slightly at the end of the false ending and sped right into the real ending. Again. It makes no musical sense to do this.

Best to simply not program the Tchaikovsky 5th or 6th, unless one can hand pick the audience to let's say you, me, NeoShredder, clara s and Samurai.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

starry said:


> I'm really not sure it's a natural instinct. Some cultures probably show happiness in other ways.


could be no idea, at least to me it feels that way


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I think for his Paris symphony Mozart wrote pieces specifically for the crowd, bits they'd like and cheer and clap during. Times change. Now, you have to suck a cough drop and hold in your tummy while they play. Just last week in the Carnegie Hall Neil Young barked crankily at his audience for committing the faux-pas of clapping along with his singing. Now, this is rawk music, people. Stuff writ for us schmoes to feel worthy about.

Eventually everything gets too big for its boots. Jazz has left the smokey seedy lounges and is played in art galleries and parlours before a cowering, threatened crowd of people who should know they're lucky to be born.

But classical music is the exception. I prefer applause at the end. I love the suspense and concentration before the climax. At operas, by contrast, I've heard the yells of _brava _and _bravo _and applause during the action, which I think is right and proper - and expected...

:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

.....but applauding before the beautiful music at the end of Walküre or Gotterdammerung dies out? That's simply being insensitive and selfish and for me, unforgivable!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Kieran said:


> I think for his Paris symphony Mozart wrote pieces specifically for the crowd, bits they'd like and cheer and clap during.


That could be (like a crescendo, or the big unison opening). However he was also dismissive of the crowd's reaction from what I remember, remarking about how shallow they were or something to that effect.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

maybe I should make a piece once, just for fun as kind of joke, in which there is a small pause in which the public can applaud if they like, and that there is a percussionnist who builds up a rhythmical motive which begins with a simple nearly unnoticable pulslike ppp thing, until either everyone has stopped or everyone is clapping with it, and then stop for a moment and start a new section begins which is based on that motif


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

Clapping during operas should also be frowned upon. The principle is the same, the music is interrupted.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Either way, I prefer listening to music at home. Can't tolerate all the distractions and fighting for the use of one of the armrests.


me too ... although paradoxically, I like listening to live recordings of my favourite operas where there is coughing, horses stamping about on stage, clattering of feet, the audible sound of the prompter reminding the soloists of the next line .... and even rapturous applause after a particularly good aria. I can kid myself that I'm there in La Scala (or the San Carlo) a dozeen years before I was born and enjoy myself without the irritation of 'real' people


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

stevederekson said:


> Clapping during operas should also be frowned upon. The principle is the same, the music is interrupted.


I wish I'd been there to join the audience in cheering enthusiastically after Callas (or even Corelli etc) moved me with the music


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

stevederekson said:


> Clapping during operas should also be frowned upon. The principle is the same, the music is interrupted.


I think it's inevitable, though, that when the _Queen of the Night_ aria (for example) is sung perfectly it gets some response from the mob. This is part of the theatre experience and it draws the audience in in an interactive way, almost. Opera is different to purely instrumental music. Sometimes at a performance of Figaro, we laugh so hard because it's funny. Why not applaud great singing too? A reaction to the performance by laughter is to acknowledge the content and be affected by it...


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

Kieran said:


> I think it's inevitable, though, that when the _Queen of the Night_ aria (for example) is sung perfectly it gets some response from the mob. This is part of the theatre experience and it draws the audience in in an interactive way, almost. Opera is different to purely instrumental music. Sometimes at a performance of Figaro, we laugh so hard because it's funny. Why not applaud great singing too? A reaction to the performance by laughter is to acknowledge the content and be affected by it...


hm but instrumental music can be funny too, for instance this march 



 and many other sarcastic prokofiev pieces. Sometimes I really have to keep myself from laughing when Im at an instrumental concert. Also it would be acknowledging the content


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

There's a Weber Hungarian Rondo for bassoon and orchestra. Whenever the bassoon comes in to play a solo it totally cracks me up!


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I saw La Traviatta in concert 10 years ago. A guy in the audience was too eager to call out the first "bravo", but he did it before Violetta was dead, she still had a few dying notes left. Some groaned at that guy in the audience for calling out too early and spoiling her death scene.

As a performer I am okay with no applause between movements of a symphony, but the silence we hear does seem awkward. After playing my best, all I get is a cough and a few squeeky chairs as people cross the other leg. But the worst is no immediate applause when the piece is finished. "Is it over?" ask the audience.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Install one of those "Applaud Now" signs like they have in TV studios. Problem solved


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> me too ... although paradoxically, I like listening to live recordings of my favourite operas where there is coughing, horses stamping about on stage, clattering of feet, the audible sound of the prompter reminding the soloists of the next line .... and even rapturous applause after a particularly good aria. I can kid myself that I'm there in La Scala (or the San Carlo) a dozeen years before I was born and enjoy myself without the irritation of 'real' people


For Wagner, I'd rather listen at home, since most of the "action" is static. For something like La Boheme, I'd rather be there in person. I love the crowd scene and the scene where Mimi and Rodolfo part and the snow begins to fall. Can't see that on the radio!!!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

lupinix said:


> hm but instrumental music can be funny too, for instance this march
> 
> 
> 
> and many other sarcastic prokofiev pieces. Sometimes I really have to keep myself from laughing when Im at an instrumental concert. Also it would be acknowledging the content


Totally agree...


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Honestly, I don't see why people shouldn't applaud between movements of a work (as long as they aren't movements that immediately go into the next one). Its like, people often applaud between acts in a play right? I do hate though when stupid people start applauding during the last note or last few notes. The music is still playing and these morons are drowning it out by prematurely cheering, and brianvds is right, rock and pop concerts are especially bad in this regard, where some people are cheering THE ENTIRE SHOW. Or drunkenly singing along with every song, out of key.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Applause between movements breaks the mood of a symphony. Acts of a play may be spaced 15-30 minutes apart. Movements of a symphony, not!


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## SteveSherman (Jan 9, 2014)

Reading through this thread I was reminded of a performance of Meistersinger I attended in Mannheim some time in the late 70s. When the curtain rose on the third act Festwiese the audience applauded the scenery.

I have not experience that before or since, though I've seen it mentioned in reviews now and again. I remember being surprised but not offended (it really was a very pretty set).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When I used to live in NYC and attended the Metropolitan Opera, practically every act, the idiots applauded the scenery as soon as the curtain went up, drowning out the music. Bunch of neanderthals!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

hpowders said:


> When I used to live in NYC and attended the Metropolitan Opera, practically every act, the idiots applauded the scenery as soon as the curtain went up, drowning out the music. Bunch of neanderthals!


I almost want to applaud the scenery as well. Nothing kills a performance of Tristan und Isolde faster than seeing a single chair on an empty stage.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> I almost want to applaud the scenery as well. Nothing kills a performance of Tristan und Isolde faster than seeing a single chair on an empty stage.


Yes, but applauding and drowning out the music? Those tickets are expensive. Quite a bit of $$$ per note played.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Not applauding until the end of an act was an ukase from Wagner.


There was no "ukase" (as you choose to name it) of the sort from Wagner.



ahammel said:


> I believe this tradition comes from Wagner's failed attempt to explain to a Bayreuth audience that he would prefer that they save their applause for the end of the act (which they mistook for a request that they wait until the end of the _opera_).


According to Martin Gregor-Dellin's (widely regarded as well-informed) biography: At the first performance of "Parsifal" in Bayreuth, the audience would continue to cheer and call the performers' names after the second act. Wagner stepped forward to the balustrade and informed the audience that they - acknowledging the specific nature of the piece - had agreed not to take _curtain calls_ after acts. That's what the audience mistook; they wouldn't even applaud at the end of the opera, and Wagner had to step forward again, try to explain and encourage - and only then, the audience would release their desire to applaud. Of course, the misunderstanding was frustrating for everyone, and caused ill humor.

This, at the moment unfortunate, but in any larger scheme insignificant incident is the root to a lot of legends.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Regarding applause in opera, I feel there are two ideas (note: I'm grossly oversimplifying for the sake of the argument, and I'd appreciate your differentiations): the Italian and the German.

The Italian idea tries to milk the maximum amount of applause possible; it builds up the drama to a number of potential climaxes, tries to give the audience the biggest number of potential points to applaud; the arias are built in a way that people can start clapping at the climax and won't miss anything important afterwards - don't we love to applaud the singers, each other, ourselves, the world! - what could be more wonderful, and as often as ever possible!

What I, for the sake of the argument, call the German idea, rather tries to _accumulate_ possible enthusiasm. It actively steers away from points which would trigger spontaneous applause, and immediately goes towards a different direction. At a defined point (such as the end of an act), it would try to _calm down_ even that accumulated potential of applause, give it a moment's rest (and the effect of that incised moment of silence is, I feel, the _true reward_ for the effort of each performer) … the audience needs a moment to catch their breath - and _then_, the applause can start!

I love operas with either approach, but from my description, I think you've sensed my preference - it is the latter. (I prefer it in Pop, R&B, or Jazz as well.) But I realize it is not in any way well thought out or backed up, and I guess you may have many counterexamples that even I must agree to - please add to the discussion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

At La Scala, the audience goes nuts. So emotional! They boo as loud as they bravo! It takes nerves of steel to perform in front of that crowd. They know their stuff too. Better not miss a note or a word!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

hpowders said:


> At La Scala, the audience goes nuts. So emotional! They boo as loud as they bravo! It takes nerves of steel to perform in front of that crowd. They know their stuff too. Better not miss a note or a word!


I've actually had the 2007 "Tristan" at La Scala in mind. Barenboim is conducting the final bar, magically ...- people instantly yell _"Bravo!"_, and he visibly cringes. (It was in the original broadcast, mercifully edited out for DVD.) I would think he would have appreciated just a _moment_ of receptive silence after the end.

But in the end, he knew where he was. When in Milan, … . They liked it! It's different sensibilities, and not rocket science to adapt to.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ebab said:


> I've actually had the 2007 "Tristan" at La Scala in mind. Barenboim is conducting the final bar, magically ...- people instantly yell _"Bravo!"_, and he visibly cringes. (It was in the original broadcast, mercifully edited out for DVD.) I would think he would have appreciated just a _moment_ of receptive silence after the end.
> 
> But in the end, he knew where he was. When in Milan, … . They liked it! It's different sensibilities, and not rocket science to adapt to.


I have a few Verdi performances live from La Scala and nobody got such an ffff ovation at La Scala on any of them like Montserrat Caballé did in La Forza Del Destino, "Pace, pace mio Dio". Such ecstasy!!!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> How about Roman-era applause? Seutonius describes how in the theatre one set of people clapped with flat hands, another with cupped hands while a third group hummed like bees!


Lol this made me rofl:lol:


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## Katie (Dec 13, 2013)

God, the arrogance of you faux Estates-General, narrow-minded intelligentsia...I'll damn well cheer that which strikes me as brilliant when I feel appropriate; your convention is merely a capricious and arbitrary device to establish an effete hierarchy in the arts that you would otherwise rail against within the social or political realms./never more proudly, Katie


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Katie said:


> God, the arrogance of you faux Estates-General, narrow-minded intelligentsia...I'll damn well cheer that which strikes me as brilliant when I feel appropriate; your convention is merely a capricious and arbitrary device to establish an effete hierarchy in the arts that you would otherwise rail against within the social or political realms./never more proudly, Katie


You get a 100 in vocabulary


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

scratchgolf said:


> You get a 100 in vocabulary


Agnew said it just as well: "...an effete corps of impudent snobs." That's us, by golly! :lol:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Katie said:


> God, the arrogance of you faux Estates-General, narrow-minded intelligentsia...I'll damn well cheer that which strikes me as brilliant when I feel appropriate; your convention is merely a capricious and arbitrary device to establish an effete hierarchy in the arts that you would otherwise rail against within the social or political realms./never more proudly, Katie


Wow! I'd really like to know if this was sarcasm. Either way, well done!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Applause is all about convention.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Applause gives those bored out of their damn sculls something to do!
They've already coughed themselves silly. Nothing left to do except applaud loudly and vigorously. Fine exercise!


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