# My Problem with VII



## millionrainbows

In music theory, we were always told that the seventh step, VII, was a "diminished" triad, which resolved up to the tonic. In the key of C major, this would be VII dim-I C major.

I didn't buy it. My ear didn't buy it, and I always trust my ear.

To me, this B-D-F always sounded like an incomplete dominant; a G7 without a root. Then, it made sense to resolve it to C like a V7-I always does.

Then I started seeing "roots" where they didn't exist, in diminished seventh chords. Like the first B-D-F, I found that I could put an imaginary root below the diminished triad, in this case a G below the B-D-F triad, and I created a dominant chord (G-B-D-F). And it worked with diminished sevenths as well; G below a B-D-F-Ab (dim 7) gives us a "flat ninth" dominant: G-B-D-F-Ab.

Later, my suspicions were confirmed by two theorists, Schoenberg (in his *Harmonilehre*) and Walter Piston (in his *Harmony *text). Both treated the resolution of any diminished chord by "imagining" a root below the lowest tone, and resolving it as if it were a typical V7-I.


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## Rhombic

I recommend Diether de la Motte's theory, where you can see that he sees this chord as a dominant without the fundamental. This is especially useful for chords such as B-D-F-(A flat), where an enharmonic modulation is more clearly seen.

By the way, you are facing the typical problem between French notation (V7, I63) and German notation/Functional notation, which I prefer much more. German/Functional notation (it is the same one) shows how it sounds to the listener, not just an absurd combination of ordered thirds (the basis for French notation).


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## clavichorder

I'd be curious to know more about this German/Functional notation, if anyone has any links or books they'd recommend.


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## Rhombic

If I remember correctly, Diether de la Motte's _Harmonielehre_ explains it. It considers A minor in a C major context to be Tp, i.e. the minor parallel (hence the lowercase p) of the (major) tonic (hence the uppercase T). Similarly, Eb major in a C minor context would be tP: major parallel of the tonic.


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## millionrainbows

In Beethoven's late quartet Op. 135, third movement, he uses the diminished seventh, transforming it to a flat-nine dominant, by changing the bass note under it. Listen at about 17:39.


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## tdc

The tonal harmony book I'm reading (Kostka/Payne) suggests the VII can be looked at in the way you've suggested - an incomplete V. So I think this may be a fairly common way of interpreting the VII chord in progressions.


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## Richannes Wrahms

It's a tritone, it resolves, the mystery being?


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## EdwardBast

tdc said:


> The tonal harmony book I'm reading (Kostka/Payne) suggests the VII can be looked at in the way you've suggested - an incomplete V. So I think this may be a fairly common way of interpreting the VII chord in progressions.


Yes, I think most theory books make that point. Piston did.

Million: The same trick works with subdominant function chords; add the second scale degree below IV and you get a stronger subdominant.


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## isorhythm

But it could be argued that dim vii --> I is actually more fundamental than V --> I, arising from pure voice leading; that the tendency of V to go to I comes about because of its acoustic association with dim vii.


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## Richannes Wrahms

^If your (modal) counterpoint avoids tritones, the fifth of the diminished triad would be substituted with a sixth thus turning it into a first inversion V chord.


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## Dim7

millionrainbows said:


> dim 7


*wakes up* I was called??


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## Rhombic

millionrainbows said:


> In Beethoven's late quartet Op. 135, third movement, he uses the diminished seventh, transforming it to a flat-nine dominant, by changing the bass note under it. Listen at about 17:39.


Also in the Pathétique sonata, second movement, bar 20.

It is called a Dominant Chromatic Resolution and it is especially useful to modulate, since the resulting chord (flat nine) can be assumed as the dominant of four other tones: in my example, B-D-F-Ab, it can be the dominant of
C Major/minor (missing a G),
A Major/minor (missing an E, with an enharmonic modulation considering Ab=G#),
Eb Major/minor (missing a Bb, considering B=Cb),
F# Major/minor (missing a C3, considering F=E# and Ab=G#).

EDIT: In the Pathétique, Beethoven changes from a V7 to a diminished seventh by shifting the bass note by one semitone (from Bb to B).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I have found it a bit of a pain in schools where they teach VII as a chord with its own function. Any attempt for them to actually explain the function of it in relation to the tonic has really just been a perfect cadence. VII is basically a dominant 9th chord without the root is it not? Outside of school I've been taught that, inside of school the curriculum has been written by morons who can't handle the fact that VII, unlike I throught to VI shouldn't be treated as having its own triad/function separate from the rest.

I may be wrong, but my interpretation of the middle note of a triad (excluding 7ths and added notes for now) is what gives a chord its quality as major/minor in tonal/functional harmony. The _leading note,_ or the 7th degree of a scale, is a semitone away from the nearest tonic whether the key is major _or_ minor. The semitone difference between the two notes becomes important to the quality of chords built on the dominant note. The mere fact that the leading note and its relation to the dominant note creates the basis for a V-I progression takes away the implication that other chords built on the leading note have a function other than a dominant function. That's what I've believed anyway...


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## Guest

Interestingly, in his chorales (the '371') Bach generally favours VII over the harmony textbook I-V6/4 - I6, giving us I - VII6 - I6.
Now he surely had his reasons ...


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## Richannes Wrahms

Well the diminished triad has two leading tones in it, the 'tonal leading tone' that resolves up to the tonic and the 'modal leading tone' (the subdominant, 4th degree) that resolves down to the mediant (3rd degree, that tells the mode). So voice-leading-wise the only full triad diatonic resolutions are to the tonic triad or to the submediant triad (sixth degree; tonic of the relative minor) whether you want to stick a third(/s) under it or not.

If you do and interpret the connection between two adjacent degrees as a compound progression then

VII-I = VII-V-I = V[SUP]7[/SUP] - I

VII-VI = VII-III-VI = III[SUP]9[/SUP] - VI which is V[SUP]9[/SUP] - I in the relative minor.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I think vii (and vii6) chords have a quality all to themselves. I can easily hear the difference in my ear. The difference between the V7 chord and vii chord is about as different to me as ii6(dim) and iv are to my ear. Diminished chords have a much darker sound. When I think of vii, I think of Sibelius' chord progressions, where he favored vii6 in particular.

vii theoretically is discouraged from moving to a V. It can only lead to I (i) or else it would be a kind of retrogression. Chords move towards diminished harmonies, not away from them. Sure, it happens, just as I can move to ii in unique circumstances. ii6(dim) to V is the only exception, which is because ii6 is _pre-dominant_ and can make the leap to major triad because V has new tonal role as _dominant_.

Sometimes vii is considered a non-harmonic chord, as in, it's used only as a passing or neighbor chord, but almost never a point of repose in the music.


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## Il_Penseroso

Rhombic said:


> I recommend Diether de la Motte's theory, where you can see that he sees this chord as a dominant without the fundamental. This is especially useful for chords such as B-D-F-(A flat), where an enharmonic modulation is more clearly seen.


One of the most clarifying books ever written on harmony, particularly because of his chronological approaches to solve many ambiguities...



Rhombic said:


> By the way, you are facing the typical problem between French notation (V7, I63) and German notation/Functional notation, which I prefer much more. German/Functional notation (it is the same one) shows how it sounds to the listener, not just an absurd combination of ordered thirds (the basis for French notation).





clavichorder said:


> I'd be curious to know more about this German/Functional notation, if anyone has any links or books they'd recommend.


The functional indication is not only used by Germans, but by many Russian scholars as well (for example the progression of I - ii6 - V - vii will be written using Russian method as T - SII6 - D - TSVII). I always use this one for analyzing and prefer it by far than the traditional French.

I have Dubovsky/Eveseev/Sposobin/Sokolov handbook, which has been translated very well into my native language (Persian) but I don't know if there's any translation available in English.


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## millionrainbows

Huilunsoittaja said:


> ...vii theoretically is discouraged from moving to a V. It can only lead to I (i) or else it would be a kind of retrogression.


Well, my whole point is that vii *IS* a V, in incomplete form. I never said it _went_ to a v.



Huilunsoittaja said:


> Sometimes vii is considered a non-harmonic chord, as in, it's used only as a passing or neighbor chord, but almost never a point of repose in the music.


Yeah, that diminished fifth (B-F) makes it unstable. That's another reason I can't hear B-D-G as having a "root" on B.



Huilunsoittaja said:


> I think vii (and vii6) chords have a quality all to themselves. I can easily hear the difference in my ear. The difference between the V7 chord and vii chord is about as different to me as ii6(dim) and iv are to my ear. Diminished chords have a much darker sound.


We can all hear the differences, but that misses the point. The differences between a V7 and a vii are outweighed by the similarities. Both G7 and B dim contain three common notes, B, D, and F. The only difference is the G, and as we said, it is really not "present" but "assumed." The difference is cognitive, not a sensual quality.


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## Richannes Wrahms

No, no cognitive assumptions needed, all wrong:

vii is vii[SUP]7[/SUP] because the non-dissonant D does sound its (overtone) fifth A. Because now that D is not only the most stable tone but is also affirmed by its sounding fifth then D is the real root of the chord so vii[SUP]7[/SUP] is really ii[SUP]13[/SUP] and as such it can functionally go to V[SUP]7[/SUP]. Thus vii[SUP]6[/SUP] is the root position of the chord, which is it's most common form.


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## millionrainbows

Richannes Wrahms said:


> No, no cognitive assumptions needed, all wrong:
> 
> vii is vii[SUP]7[/SUP] because the non-dissonant D does sound its (overtone) fifth A. Because now that D is not only the most stable tone but is also affirmed by its sounding fifth then D is the real root of the chord so vii[SUP]7[/SUP] is really ii[SUP]13[/SUP] and as such it can functionally go to V[SUP]7[/SUP]. Thus vii[SUP]6[/SUP] is the root position of the chord, which is it's most common form.


The above reply is off-topic information, is unclear, and is ultimately misleading and confusing the thread subject.

The reply is off-topic, because it refers to the diminished triadin a minor scale that occurs on the second scale degree*.*

I'm talking *only* about *vii7* in C major*. *

*------------------------------------------------------

*From WIKI, we read that in the key of C minor, this is the D diminished triad (D, F, A♭). This triad is consequently called the supertonic diminished triad. Like the supertonic triad found in a major key, the supertonic diminished triad has a pre-dominant function, almost always resolving to a dominant functioning chord. The *supertonic diminished triad* and leading-tone diminished triad are usually found in first inversion (ii[SUP]o[/SUP][SUP]6[/SUP] and vii[SUP]o[/SUP][SUP]6[/SUP] respectively) since the spelling of the chord forms a diminished fifth with the bass. This differs from the fully diminished seventh chord, which commonly occurs in root position.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> The above reply is off-topic information, is unclear, and is ultimately misleading and confusing the thread subject.
> 
> The reply is off-topic, because it refers to the diminished triadin a minor scale that occurs on the second scale degree*.*
> 
> I'm talking *only* about *vii7* in C major*. *
> 
> *------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *From WIKI, we read that in the key of C minor, this is the D diminished triad (D, F, A♭). This triad is consequently called the supertonic diminished triad. Like the supertonic triad found in a major key, the supertonic diminished triad has a pre-dominant function, almost always resolving to a dominant functioning chord. The *supertonic diminished triad* and leading-tone diminished triad are usually found in first inversion (ii[SUP]o[/SUP][SUP]6[/SUP] and vii[SUP]o[/SUP][SUP]6[/SUP] respectively) since the spelling of the chord forms a diminished fifth with the bass. This differs from the fully diminished seventh chord, which commonly occurs in root position.


Strange. I'm trying to reply to a post made by MillionRainbows (#20) and the above "quote" appears. Whatever. Here is the part I want to reply to: 
"_Correct me if I'm misreading you, but a vii7 (fully diminished seventh) in the key of C is spelled B-D-F-A-flat. Are you calling *D-Ab* a stable interval because its an augmented fifth? It's a tritone, the same as B-F. Tritones are not prominent overtones like regular fifths. You lost me here._"
My reply to Million is that *D to A-flat* is _not_ an augmented 5th, it is a *diminished* one.


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## millionrainbows

TalkingHead said:


> Strange. I'm trying to reply to a post made by MillionRainbows (#20) and the above "quote" appears. Whatever. Here is the part I want to reply to:
> "_Correct me if I'm misreading you, but a vii7 (fully diminished seventh) in the key of C is spelled B-D-F-A-flat. Are you calling *D-Ab* a stable interval because its an augmented fifth? It's a tritone, the same as B-F. Tritones are not prominent overtones like regular fifths. You lost me here._"
> My reply to Million is that *D to A-flat* is _not_ an augmented 5th, it is a *diminished* one.


That's not fair; I hadn't re-read the post and corrected it yet. I decided to edit that part out. I don't appreciate your quoting a deleted edit.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> That's not fair; I hadn't re-read the post and corrected it yet. I decided to edit that part out. I don't appreciate your quoting a deleted edit.


Dear Millions, I clicked on "Reply with a quote" and what came up was what came up! *I am not guilty of your allegation* !!!!


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## millionrainbows

TalkingHead said:


> Dear Millions, I clicked on "Reply with a quote" and what came up was what came up! *I am not guilty of your allegation* !!!!


You should realize that I edited and deleted that post shortly after I mistakenly posted it. Technically, you are within bounds, but as a courtesy to me, I would appreciate the removal of your quote, since I do not claim it as a valid response.


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## Guest

It seems that everything has "auto-corrected" itself in the meantime if you follow the chronology above, MillionRainbows.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> You should realize that I edited and deleted that post shortly after I mistakenly posted it. Technically, you are within bounds, but as a courtesy to me, I would appreciate the removal of your quote, since I do not claim it as a valid response.


If you started more politely with "_*Please*_ realize that ..." I might very well grant your wish.


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## Richannes Wrahms

I was referring to the vii triad and then to vii7 (just out of the C major scale not fully diminished). 

Anyway, I was toying with ideas really as to find a root that actually sound (instead of 'supposed roots' that don't). The fact that the D does not form a dissonant interval with the other two tones in the triad, the third overtone (a fifth, which is really audible specially of the note in the bass and more so when doubled at the octave) and that fifths stabilise roots.

If you were to follow this, the triad BDF in first inversion (DFB) generates DFBA (which is vii7 in first inversion) whose root I say is D because of the fifth D-A. If you add the overtones of the rest of the notes in the triad (which are less audible) you get the polychord DFBACF# which has tritones F-B and C-F#. If you where to use DFBACF# tonally, it goes to V7 because C-F# resolves to B-G.


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## Che2007

Just to throw a spanner in the works: Rameau considered the diminished 7th as a V7 with the root replaced by a note a semitone above. So in C major, the Ab replaces G. All much of a muchness, everyone knows that dim7s can have a dominant function.

Also, I thought I might point out that sometimes you can have a dim7 that has a different function. For example, at the beginning of Brahm's 3rd Symphony there is a common-tone dim7. I think it really acts as an embellishment and an intensifier of the tonic. But not as a dominant.


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## millionrainbows

I'm only interested in vii, and how it is considered, and how it is resolved. 

I read that it is not considered a root station chord, but as a transition; therefore, my music theory teacher was not explaining it very well, if I was supposed to believe that the triad on vii had some sort of root function on B. That's hogwash; I never heard it that way, and still don't. You can try to cite all sorts of alternate dim7s, and cloud the issue, but I never thought "vii as a B" had any substance. It's very infrequently used that way. 
What is the agenda here, to "defend tradition for music theory teachers everywhere"? I call 'em like I hear 'em, and my ear is never wrong. That goes with what Piston and Schoenberg said: In C major, vii is treated as an incomplete G7, and resolved as a V-I. I'll cite the exact pages if you want.
Frankly, jazz theorists like Dan Haerle makes a lot more sense to me on many issues. He can play circles around most music theory teachers I've know, and I suppose that is partly because he has to find practical, workable, usable answers, and doesn't have time to get bogged down in academic nit-picking which leads nowhere.


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## Richannes Wrahms

So ultimately there was no purpose to this thread or to all the similar ones.


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## millionrainbows

Richannes Wrahms said:


> So ultimately there was no purpose to this thread or to all the similar ones.


Thank you for your support! :lol:
I've learned a lot about diminished chords in other contexts, such as minor keys and on different functions than vii, like ii. But nobody has bothered to really think about this, apparently, or I think we'd see more specific information in response.

Initially, in conceiving this thread, I was concerned with vii in a major key. How do you see it? Does that make sense to you to treat vii as a root on B? It doesn't to me. If this were recognized as a "glitch" in the list of functions, I'd be much closer to being satisfied.

So how will this be explained, as some rote rule or factoid which has been passed down unquestioned, from teacher to student, or do we look at it freshly, as in how it actually sounds to us?


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## isorhythm

There isn't really a right answer to these music theory questions, you know. There is no Platonic realm of V7 chords. Music theory is a necessarily imperfect _description_ of patterns in how music is composed and perceived.


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## millionrainbows

isorhythm said:


> There isn't really a right answer to these music theory questions, you know. There is no Platonic realm of V7 chords. Music theory is a necessarily imperfect _description_ of patterns in how music is composed and perceived.


That's an easy-out disclaimer, simply a denial. I can cite my sources: Walter Piston's *Harmony*, and Schoenberg's *Harmonielehre,* and probably a few others.

The true answer lies not in perfect descriptions, but in admitting that vii is not really a functional root chord on that step. It has to be in inversion, or be called something else.

Once again, diminished chords reveal a "glitch" in the diatonic major/minor system, which never ceases to confound button-down minds.


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## Woodduck

I'm late to this and have no interpretations to add, but I'm surprised that anyone would ever think of this triad, B-D-F in C-major, as having a functional root on B. I've always heard it as an incomplete dominant of C. It can have other functions as the direction of harmonic movement and voice-leading dictate (it could be heard as, say, an incomplete dominant ninth in A-minor), but it's hard to imagine the B ever sounding like a root. 

As far as I'm concerned, things are what they sound like they are, and the instability of this chord, with the B wanting to lead into C and the F wanting to lead into E, makes it the unique "outlier" among the triads built on the diatonic scale, possessing essentially two leading tones, to the tonic and the mediant, and a third tone that can resolve either way. It is also, to my ear, the form of the dominant most in need of resolution, in any inversion; a dominant seventh possessing a root is actually rendered slightly more stable by that root. Chopin's F-major Prelude, ending with an Eb casually tossed into the tonic chord, doesn't sound particularly unstable, although that note does in retrospect serve as a piquant transition into the following Prelude in D-minor.


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## Che2007

I don't think it is a wasted thread, it got into some interesting areas re: dim7s.

As for a direct answer to your question about whether a vii dim can be called a rooted chord on the leading tone... Well I thinking for labeling purposes writing viio6 in an analysis is perfectly fine - everyone knows what it means and how it functions. In most common practice tonal contexts it will sound like some kind of dominant. You could follow Damschroder and label it as a V7 with a missing root. SO broadly, in most contexts I agree that a vii dim sounds like a dominant. 

I prefer the viio label as a notation for the chord though since it doesn't involve imagining any tones.

As for the labeling of diminished 7s as rootless b9 chords: this is a tricky area. If we think like that, then there is a whole family of chords that have a dominant function but lack a root. You might include extensions to altered dominants like #5. That would lead you to have chords that enharmonically sound like a half-diminished acting as dominants. A question that would arise then is: if the underlying dominant's 5th is altered, how could it be rooted?

This brings up the half-dim chord which is related to the dim7. It can also have a dominant function, but more regularly fits into a predominant function (as ii6/5 in minor). We don't normally think of this as a Vb9#5no root since a half diminished often doesn't function as a dominant (we are more likely to notice that it is the inverse of the dom7).

These are some interesting musical questions in my view. I think the answers to them almost always come from context.


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## Dim7

Everything is subjective.... My ear wants everything resolve to the dim7 chord


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## Che2007

How very appropriate!

(also, a theorist that thinks like you is Abbe Vogler! His omnibus progression resolves around a composing out of diminished 7s)


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## millionrainbows

There is something to that. If you lower any note of a dim 7, it becomes a dom 7. 

Take the three dim7 forms (each on a chromatic half-step above, then they inversionally repeat on the 4th), and you get four dom 7 chords out of each, and viola! You have all 12 dom 7 chords. For guitarists, this gives us access to all 12 dom 7s in the space of 3 frets.

In his harmony book Harmonielehre, Schoenberg calls diminished sevenths "vagrant chords." So what does that mean, the "tonal police" come along and tell them to "either resolve or move on" or arrest them? Danged vagrants!

But the dim 7 reveals the 'glitches' in the 7-note diatonic system. To spell one, you have to double-flat a letter, such as C-Eb-Gb-Bbb (to be a seventh, it needs to be a "B"). How archaic and bothersome. The same with spelling the scale; it's an 8-note scale, and there are only 7 letter names.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> There is something to that. *If you lower any note of a dim 7*, it becomes a dom 7.
> 
> Take the three dim7 forms (each on a chromatic half-step above, then they inversionally repeat on the 4th), and you get four dom 7 chords out of each, and *viola*! You have all 12 dom 7 chords. For guitarists, this gives us access to all 12 dom 7s in the space of 3 frets.
> 
> In his harmony book Harmonielehre, Schoenberg calls diminished sevenths "vagrant chords." So what does that mean, the "tonal police" come along and tell them to "either resolve or move on" or arrest them? Danged vagrants!
> 
> But the dim 7 reveals the 'glitches' in the 7-note diatonic system. To spell one, you have to double-flat a letter, such as C-Eb-Gb-Bbb (to be a seventh, it needs to be a "B"). How archaic and bothersome. The same with spelling the scale; it's an 8-note scale, and there are only 7 letter names.


Just two points (as bolded above):
a) You need to be a bit more precise. If you lower any note of a dim 7 *by a semitone* ... etc.
b) Voilà and not viola.

Bises,
TH


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## Dim7

millionrainbows said:


> How archaic and bothersome. The same with spelling the scale; it's an 8-note scale, and there are only 7 letter names.


Wouldn't the intervals in the half-whole diminished scale from the starting note technically be:

minor second
minor third
diminished fourth
diminished fifth
diminished sixth
diminished seventh
double-diminished octave
diminished ninth

Seems impractical....


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Woodduck said:


> I'm late to this and have no interpretations to add, but I'm surprised that anyone would ever think of this triad, B-D-F in C-major, as having a functional root on B. I've always heard it as an incomplete dominant of C. It can have other functions as the direction of harmonic movement and voice-leading dictate (it could be heard as, say, an incomplete dominant ninth in A-minor), but it's hard to imagine the B ever sounding like a root.


I am surprised too! And its function is made ever more obvious by looking at its name: 'leading note'

In this type of functional harmony the 'dominant' is called what it is because it is the most important chord in relation to the tonic; the 'dominant' defines the key. Using voice leading rules as derived from dry, textbook 4 part harmony, the 7th degree (the 'leading note') is used first and foremost to lead back to the tonic note in one of the four voices.

You have accurately described this even without explaining the names of degrees of the scale the triads derived from them, so I guess that in itself proves how obvious all this is. :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I am surprised too! And its function is made ever more obvious by looking at its name: 'leading note'
> 
> In this type of functional harmony the 'dominant' is called what it is because it is the most important chord in relation to the tonic; the 'dominant' defines the key. Using voice leading rules as derived from dry, textbook 4 part harmony, the 7th degree (the 'leading note') is used first and foremost to lead back to the tonic note in one of the four voices.
> 
> You have accurately described this even without explaining the names of degrees of the scale the triads derived from them, so I guess that in itself proves how obvious all this is. :tiphat:


I'm glad others can see this. It's just that when they lay out all the scale degrees, and their functions, vii is diminished, but I guess it can't be built on that degree, or be used like that. But what else are we going to to with that seventh scale degree? To me, this reveals that scales are just a convenient way of laying out all the notes and functions. Maybe it's my fault for not seeing that.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Go to iii as part of a circle progression, in which B is treated as the root.


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## Kathrin

Hi, all works by Clemens Kühn are very revealing. Not sure if translated into English though...


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## Lukecash12

isorhythm said:


> There isn't really a right answer to these music theory questions, you know. There is no Platonic realm of V7 chords. Music theory is a necessarily imperfect _description_ of patterns in how music is composed and perceived.


Do you mean "Platonic Form"? Sorry, I couldn't help myself, let's not derail the thread with Plato. I think you're right though, that music theory describes tendencies more than it explains them. Million is asking for explanatory power where little exists. Maybe if you'd like us to consider this differently you could compose some music of your own, million?


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## isorhythm

Lukecash12 said:


> Do you mean "Platonic Form"? Sorry, I couldn't help myself, let's not derail the thread with Plato. I think you're right though, that music theory describes tendencies more than it explains them. Million is asking for explanatory power where little exists. Maybe if you'd like us to consider this differently you could compose some music of your own, million?


In a few of the dialogues Socrates talks about another world of forms, as opposed to our real world - that's all I meant.

With the vii thing, to me it seems obvious that the tendency of the tritone to resolve inward to a third is real on its own, and so is the tendency of V to go to I. It doesn't have to "really" be one or the other.


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## Lukecash12

isorhythm said:


> In a few of the dialogues Socrates talks about another world of forms, as opposed to our real world - that's all I meant.
> 
> With the vii thing, to me it seems obvious that the tendency of the tritone to resolve inward to a third is real on its own, and so is the tendency of V to go to I. It doesn't have to "really" be one or the other.


Nope, it doesn't "really" have to be anything; it's merely a reflection of musical style.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Just happened to be revising some old stuff. I've found a good number of VII-V-I (and VII7-V7-I, etc) progressions, some VII-III (almost always as part of a sequense) and even some unusual intermingling with II and IV but more importantly I've found no example of V-VII. The old interpretation suggests V7 - I came from VII-V-I and it seems to be the case. Perhaps V establishes the dominant region more strongly than VII thus increasing its tonal tension. So in practise VII is the weaker dominant.


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## millionrainbows

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Just happened to be revising some old stuff. I've found a good number of VII-V-I (and VII7-V7-I, etc) progressions, some VII-III (almost always as part of a sequense) and even some unusual intermingling with II and IV but more importantly I've found no example of V-VII. The old interpretation suggests V7 - I came from VII-V-I and it seems to be the case. Perhaps V establishes the dominant region more strongly than VII thus increasing its tonal tension. So in practise VII is the weaker dominant.


You'd have to supply the actual voicing of that VII, and its bass note, to bolster your case. At the present, I'm thinking that "VII" is just a scale degree used as an "index" to show the chord (after all, the tritone F-B in C must be accounted for in some way), but in actual usage, we don't have to consider "B" to be the root of a B-D-F triad. After all, again, it is a diminished chord, and it is unstable anyway, and if it's a dim7 its root can be any of 4 notes, depending on context.

My case is closed.


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## Larkenfield

The chord built on the seventh note of the C scale is sometimes referred to as a B half-diminished 7th, often notated as Bm7b5. The Bm7b5 is part of the modulation sequence of Bm7b5 - Em - Am - Dm - G7 - C. It is not a G7 without a root. The root is B that is usually designed to modulate to Em and then through the rest of the chord sequence ending on C major. The Bm7b5 can also be used in other ways depending upon the context of the music. But it's basically designed to modulate to E minor within the context of the key of C. 

The first few bars of Mahler's 7th Symphony start on a half-diminished 7th but do not evolve through the sequence of chords I just mentioned. The half-diminished 7th chord is an amazing one, because it has the ability to create suspense, uncertainty or doubt when it's not immediately, harmonically resolved. I believe that sense of uncertainty or doubt can be easily felt at the beginning of his 7th.


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## childed

for phrygian scale the progression II-VII-I can be used like cadence turnover.
it's normal for russian classic.


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## Razumovskymas

My knowledge of music theory is very limited but recently I started reading about the scale degrees and it's triads and the VII (in C-major) definitely felt like the odd one out on different levels. First of all in the description of it's function there was some mystery surrounding it, all the other triads where very clear in their function, origin and relation to the other degrees and it was like the VII was quickly mentioned but not too much explanation was given (ah, ok not minor, not major but diminished, and leading to the I). Sure, when I play a VII chord on my guitar I could hear it was leading very much to the I chord. But compared to all the other degrees (triads) there was definitely something different. To me it sounded very jazzy and unstable (like a seventh chord) , while none of the other degrees (triads) sounded like a seventh chord at all. Actually, strumming al degrees (triads) on my guitar in almost random order never sounds odd and very harmonically, except the VII chord. So to me it was clear that it's function was very different then the other degrees and I even asked myself if this chord was even used on the same level as the other triads. 

To me also it feels like it's just some sort of correction towards that end b-note that's inherent to the way the C-major scale is formed. 

This is just the view of a novice amateur would be theorist that has no proper musical education but I can say that the fact that it brings up debate somehow reassures me. Also the suggestion of millionrainbows that its actually more something of a seventh chord (V7) sounds very logic to me.


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## SONNET CLV

I wonder what Xenakis thought about all of this diminished/dominant/resolving/tritone/etc. chord talk.


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## millionrainbows

Larkenfield said:


> The chord built on the seventh note of the C scale is sometimes referred to as a B half-diminished 7th, often notated as Bm7b5. The Bm7b5 is part of the modulation sequence of Bm7b5 - Em - Am - Dm - G7 - C. It is not a G7 without a root. The root is B that is usually designed to modulate to Em and then through the rest of the chord sequence ending on C major. The Bm7b5 can also be used in other ways depending upon the context of the music. But it's basically designed to modulate to E minor within the context of the key of C.


If you want to see it as Bm7b5, then the most common function of that chord is as a ii in A minor, which works. It has to be a seventh chord, though: B-D-F-A. This could also be seen as F maj7/9 in inversion.


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