# Bartok Piano Concertos 1-3



## starthrower

I'm wondering how many recorded versions of these great works you Bartok fanatics own? And which ones you think are the finest?

I've been listening to the same recording for 20 years, and I've hesitated to try different performances. I have the Gyorgy Sandor CD on Sony. It has a great cover photo too!










I'm looking forward to your comments and opinions on the various recordings.


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## realdealblues

I only have a few.

The Boulez set with Zimerman, Andsnes & Grimaud
Fricsay with Anda
Fischer with Schiff

I have some other one off's and two off's like:
Abbado with Pollini (Concertos 1 & 2)
Bernstein with Entremont (Concertos 2 & 3)
Dutoit with Argerich (Concerto 3)

I'm sure a few others that I don't remember off the top of my head.

Fricsay with Anda is probably my favorite set with all 3 concertos.


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## Ukko

Kocsis/Fischer is my favorite. Anda/Fricsay is good, mostly because of Fricsay & orchestra. The 1st is very difficult to nail, according to Bartók _and_ to me. The 2nd is marginally less difficult, and maybe the best balanced between percussion and other aspects of music. The 3rd is apparently relatively easy to perform adequately, though the elderly Boulez messes it up.


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## starthrower

My library has the Schiff/Fischer, so I'll give it a try. The Anda is listed as a CD-R at Amazon.


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## joen_cph

_Concerto 1:_
- Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
- *Kocsis,Lehel,BudSO*/hg lpx 11516. He has some subtle accents in the percussive motifs right from the beginning I don´t hear in other recordings.
- Kovacevich,Davis,LSO/ph 412 000-1
- Serkin,Szell,ColSO/cbs st ms 6405

I´ve owned the Sandor/Reinhardt Vox and the Anda/Fricsay sets too of the concerti, but prefer Kocsis and the others I have underlined here.

_Concerto 2:_
- *Richter,Svetlanov,USSRSO*/rev 67-97 rv 10093. Great dramatic sense, very serious.
- *Farnadi,Scherchen,WPO*/urania cd mono urn 22.303 & westminster LP xwn 18277. Rather entertaining/improvising playing.
- Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
- Kocsis,Lehel,BudSO/hg lpx 11516

_Concerto 3: _ No real favourite recordings, but:
- Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
- *Farnadi,Scherchen,WPO/westm mono xwn 18277*
- *Argerich,Dutoit,MontrSO/emi*
- Ranki,Ferencsik,UngStPO/hg slpx 11421
- Kovacevich,Davis,LSO/ph 412 000-1
- Katchen,Ansermet,SuissRom/decca-london mono ll-945 
- Bernathova,Ancerl,CzPO/artia st als 7199
- Ditta Pasztory Bartok,T.Serly,WienStOpO/mhs st 3337 (Unfortunately very poor; a late, extremely boring recording of hers)

_Rhapsody:_
- Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
- Sandor,Reinhardt,SWFunk/turnabout LP (poor sound, but somehow I like this melodramatic version a lot)

_Scherzo:_
Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71


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## realdealblues

It appears there are a few others I need to listen too


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## etkearne

The best one I have encountered is the Geza Anda/ Fricsay version. The second best is the Pollini/ Abbado version. Anda's is superior but the sound quality (which is pretty darned good for 1960 btw) is inferior to the Pollini version, although I think Pollini lacks some of the spark of Anda. He just isn't delicate enough in the Andante Movements IMO.


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## tdc

I only own one recording of these phenomenal works (have heard others only on youtube), so I appreciate the information in this thread. My version for all three concertos is Donohoe / Rattle and I have to say they are to my ears very great versions.


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## starthrower

I'd like to get the Zoltan Kocsis recordings if they get repackaged and re-issued.

I ordered a used copy of a Philips 2 CD set for 4 dollars. I don't know if it's any
good, but it has the 3 piano concertos, violin concerto no.2, which I don't have
and concerto for orchestra.


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> _Concerto 1:_
> - Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
> - *Kocsis,Lehel,BudSO*/hg lpx 11516. He has some subtle accents in the percussive motifs right from the beginning I don´t hear in other recordings.
> - Kovacevich,Davis,LSO/ph 412 000-1
> - Serkin,Szell,ColSO/cbs st ms 6405
> 
> I´ve owned the Sandor/Reinhardt Vox and the Anda/Fricsay sets too of the concerti, but prefer Kocsis and the others I have underlined here.
> 
> _Concerto 2:_
> - *Richter,Svetlanov,USSRSO*/rev 67-97 rv 10093. Great dramatic sense, very serious.
> - *Farnadi,Scherchen,WPO*/urania cd mono urn 22.303 & westminster LP xwn 18277. Rather entertaining/improvising playing.
> - Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
> - Kocsis,Lehel,BudSO/hg lpx 11516
> 
> _Concerto 3: _ No real favourite recordings, but:
> - Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
> - *Farnadi,Scherchen,WPO/westm mono xwn 18277*
> - *Argerich,Dutoit,MontrSO/emi*
> - Ranki,Ferencsik,UngStPO/hg slpx 11421
> - Kovacevich,Davis,LSO/ph 412 000-1
> - Katchen,Ansermet,SuissRom/decca-london mono ll-945
> - Bernathova,Ancerl,CzPO/artia st als 7199
> - Ditta Pasztory Bartok,T.Serly,WienStOpO/mhs st 3337 (Unfortunately very poor; a late, extremely boring recording of hers)
> 
> _Rhapsody:_
> - Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71
> - Sandor,Reinhardt,SWFunk/turnabout LP (poor sound, but somehow I like this melodramatic version a lot)
> 
> _Scherzo:_
> Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO/hg 87 slpd 12869-71


I believe the Anda/Fricsay is probably the best but how fascinating to see the Edith Farnadi recordings. She's a favourite of mine and I have many of her recordings but did not know of her Bartok Concertos.


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## joen_cph

Yes, *Farnadi* can be great, the Tchaikovsky´s 2nd Concerto with Scherchen is one of the wildest and most eccentric piano recordings in existence .

Apparently she also recorded some solo piano Bartok works and Violin Sonatas with Taschner & Gertler, but I haven´t heard those (a few clips can be found on you-tube; 
From a _Violin Sonata_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og5MiHbHHsU;
_Allegro Barbaro_ and others: 



).


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## Ukko

joen_cph said:


> Yes, *Farnadi* can be great, the Tchaikovsky´s 2nd Concerto with Scherchen is one of the wildest and most eccentric piano recordings in existence .
> [...]


Hey, that's interesting. The finale of that work always detracts from the good feeling the first two movements have generated; did Farnadi/Scherchen fix it?


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## joen_cph

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey, that's interesting. The finale of that work always detracts from the good feeling the first two movements have generated; did Farnadi/Scherchen fix it?


After their incredible first movement, the others seem slightly more normal, yet the finale is very improvisatory-gypsy-like and unusually speedy (my Heliodor-LP has _both_ Tchaikovsky concerti, one on each side). 
As regards Bartok, their tempi are less extreme (or perhaps one should say that any extremes are indicated in the scores), but the 2nd Concerto is given a lot of contrasts.

Here´s a you-tube of another Argerich recording of th 3rd Concerto:


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> Yes, *Farnadi* can be great, the Tchaikovsky´s 2nd Concerto with Scherchen is one of the wildest and most eccentric piano recordings in existence .
> 
> Apparently she also recorded some solo piano Bartok works and Violin Sonatas with Taschner & Gertler, but I haven´t heard those (a few clips can be found on you-tube;
> From a _Violin Sonata_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og5MiHbHHsU;
> _Allegro Barbaro_ and others:
> 
> 
> 
> ).


I have her many Liszt recordings but not Bartok. I also have her doing Dvorak's Piano Quintet Op.81 with the Barylli Quartet.
This is the woman who appeared at the age of twelve playing and directing the orchestra in Beethoven's C Major piano concerto.
Who has gor the Westminster catalogue?It's a crime that the gems it holds,and there are many,are not available to us.


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey, that's interesting. The finale of that work always detracts from the good feeling the first two movements have generated; did Farnadi/Scherchen fix it?


The problem was caused by Siloti who cut the second movement to pieces thus causing a complete imbalance.
The concerto starts off with a massive 22 minute allegro brillante movement and then originally went into a longish approx.20 minute soulful,beautiful andante, this is a miniature concerto for violin and cello and it is wonderful. The last movement is almost a "to hell with all this ,let's go!" outburst. Then it all makes sense.
But nearly every recording was the Siloti version,so look for an uncut recording and you will be rewarded.


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## neoshredder

Anyone heard this recording? It is pretty recently. http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-The-Piano-Concertos-Nos/dp/B003WL7E80/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


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## kv466

I have a great set on Chandos and I like the Argerich/Dutoit renditions. While not my expertise, I also like (which is rare for me to like Vladi) this one:


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## Manxfeeder

Is anyone familiar with the Kovacevich/Colin Davis set? That's the one I have, but for some reason, I haven't played it enough to have an opinion on it.


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## neoshredder

Lots of questions and no answers. I decided to take the plunge. Just ordered this.


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## Ukko

neoshredder said:


> Lots of questions and no answers. I decided to take the plunge. Just ordered this.


Aha! Must be I'm on your Ignore List. Good plan.


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## starthrower

Manxfeeder said:


> Is anyone familiar with the Kovacevich/Colin Davis set? That's the one I have, but for some reason, I haven't played it enough to have an opinion on it.


That's the one I just ordered the other day on a Philips Duo set w/ the 2nd violin concerto.


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## chalkpie

Hilltroll72 said:


> Kocsis/Fischer is my favorite. Anda/Fricsay is good, mostly because of Fricsay & orchestra. The 1st is very difficult to nail, according to Bartók _and_ to me. The 2nd is marginally less difficult, and maybe the best balanced between percussion and other aspects of music. The 3rd is apparently relatively easy to perform adequately, though the elderly Boulez messes it up.


How exactly does Boulez mess up B3?


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## Ukko

chalkpie said:


> How exactly does Boulez mess up B3?


He does his best to turn all of them into duck soup. The 3rd is most vulnerable to that form of attack.


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## chalkpie

Hilltroll72 said:


> He does his best to turn all of them into duck soup. The 3rd is most vulnerable to that form of attack.


?

WTF does that mean? I don't follow that metaphor at all, maybe because I have never had duck soup?

Can you elaborate in musical terms? Thanks.


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## Ukko

chalkpie said:


> ?
> 
> WTF does that mean? I don't follow that metaphor at all, maybe because I have never had duck soup?
> 
> Can you elaborate in musical terms? Thanks.


Hmm. You have never heard the term "Easy (or simple) as duck soup"? Whippersnapper perhaps? I can't elaborate 'in musical terms', not possessing any that are applicable (and damned few of any sort).

[edit: To clarify, the old saw about 'duck soup' is that the duck merely wades though the water of it. Boulez's concerti with Zimmerman are heavily 'watered down'.]


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## bigshot

I find that I like Bartok better when the performance acknowledges the ethnic roots. When it's presented purely as modern music, I find it very tough going.


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## Ukko

bigshot said:


> I find that I like Bartok better when the performance acknowledges the ethnic roots. When it's presented purely as modern music, I find it very tough going.


Interesting. I hadn't thought on it, but those ethnic roots are significant in some of his music, particularly the solo piano pieces and the string quartets 1-4. They may be too highly integrated to 'show though' in his music from the mid-thirties onward.
What say you?


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## Mahlerian

Am I the only one who thinks that the 1st is very underrated? It's an amazing work, very lively. It has the percussive hit of Les Noces with a more classicizing touch, and I'm surprised that audiences haven't taken to it as much as the latter two (which are excellent as well).


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## Ukko

Mahlerian said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the 1st is very underrated? It's an amazing work, very lively. It has the percussive hit of Les Noces with a more classicizing touch, and I'm surprised that audiences haven't taken to it as much as the latter two (which are excellent as well).


When Bartók published the 2nd concerto, he wrote that the 1st presented performance difficulties for both soloist and orchestra. He could have included the audience as well. Not only is the piano treated as tuned percussion, orchestral instruments that don't normally sound at all percussive are required to _approach_ that sound. The musicians under Fischer and Lehel managed it well.


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## tdc

I wasn't aware the 1st was under-rated. I consider it one of the finest PC's in the repertoire, though I slightly prefer the 2nd. The 3rd is also great but to my ears is the one not quite as good as the others.

I picked up the Anda/Fricsay recording of the concertos recently, and ended up really enjoying it for reasons I didn't quite expect. Fricsay really brings out a lot of the subtler voices in the score, making them sound almost like new pieces at times compared to what I was used to - the Donohoe/Rattle version. I really enjoy both interpretations for different reasons, the Rattle has very well integrated sound yet with more dynamic contrasts between certain sections, where the Fricsay has stunning detail and great execution instrumentally. Anda's playing strikes me as more emotional than Donohoe's who comes across a little more methodical and exacting. I like both but slightly prefer the softer tone of the piano on the Donohoe/Rattle recording.

Hearing the differences in these two recordings has really piqued my interest in hearing additional recordings of these great, multifaceted and fascinating works.


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## Mahlerian

tdc said:


> I wasn't aware the 1st was under-rated. I consider it one of the finest PC's in the repertoire, though I slightly prefer the 2nd. The 3rd is also great but to my ears is the one not quite as good as the others.


Some people apparently find the 1st a bit thorny. I can sort of understand where they're coming from, but it's the adrenaline rush of the use of piano as percussion that makes it work so well, in my opinion. Then again, simply hammering the piano doesn't make a piece great. See Antheil's Ballet Mechanique for an example of the ideas behind Les Noces made somehow utterly dull.


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## DavidA

I have the three concertos on one disc with - Kocsis,Fisher,BudFestO
Really good performances.
I also have a couple of Argerich's performances, one studio with Dutoit and one live at Lugano.

I can remember being in the gallery at the Royal Albert Hall when Geza Anda played no 2 at the Proms in London in early 1970s. He was a fantastic player of Bartok.


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## Vaneyes

For CDs with all three cti. (over 25 years or so), I started with the Kovacevich, moved to Schiff/Fischer, and settled with Anda/Fricsay. The final stay may be less edgy and more musical, though I wouldn't swear to it in a court of law.


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## DavidA

I used to have Pollini in 1&2 on LP. Fantastic virtuosity.


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## starthrower

tdc said:


> I wasn't aware the 1st was under-rated. I consider it one of the finest PC's in the repertoire, though I slightly prefer the 2nd. The 3rd is also great but to my ears is the one not quite as good as the others.
> 
> I picked up the Anda/Fricsay recording of the concertos recently, and ended up really enjoying it for reasons I didn't quite expect. Fricsay really brings out a lot of the subtler voices in the score, making them sound almost like new pieces at times compared to what I was used to - the Donohoe/Rattle version. I really enjoy both interpretations for different reasons, the Rattle has very well integrated sound yet with more dynamic contrasts between certain sections, where the Fricsay has stunning detail and great execution instrumentally. Anda's playing strikes me as more emotional than Donohoe's who comes across a little more methodical and exacting. I like both but slightly prefer the softer tone of the piano on the Donohoe/Rattle recording.
> 
> Hearing the differences in these two recordings has really piqued my interest in hearing additional recordings of these great, multifaceted and fascinating works.


Interesting comments! I dug up this old thread because I just read a piece in BBC Music Magazine on Donohoe. He considers the Bartok recording with Rattle to be the finest of his career. And he gives the credit to Rattle for his fine conducting of these works. I've been meaning to pick up the Anda recording for several years so maybe I'll grab both. I used to listen to the Sandor/ Fischer recording a lot but I've gotten away from these works in the past few years.


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## CnC Bartok

There's no doubt Donohoe puts in three very fine performances of these wonderful works, although they end up sounding quite a bit more genteel than the versions I tend to prefer. Not quite "Bartok-lite", but the giants in this repertoire don't underplay the essential rhythmical elements.

In these works, Geza Anda is GOD!! And yet Zoltan Kocsis, Stephen Kovacevich and Andras Schiff all give him a good run for his money too, and if you want a surprisingly earthy and properly Bartokian set, I have always loved the recordings by Ashkenazy. Taking nothing away from him as a pianist - I think he's a superb one in almost everything he does - I suspect much of that is down to having Solti conducting?


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## starthrower

The Anda recording sounds great just from the samples. I have the Kovacevich which I just put on. For some reason I can't seem to get interested in these recordings. Maybe because I just want to hear Anda, so I better order a copy.

But wait, the Ashkenazy does sound great! The orchestra is recorded better. I'll have to get the Double Decca with the violin concertos.


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## Simplicissimus

This will be a low-information post, but I just listened to Bartok Piano Concertos 1 and 3 - Ozawa/Chicago SO with Peter Serkin, recorded 1966 and 1965 (respectively), RCA Red Seal. They're on the first disc of the 6-CD Ozawa/CSO box which I'm starting to listen to. I'm weighing in here mostly because these recordings haven't been mentioned yet in this or other threads I've found dealing with the Bartok piano concertos.

I'm excited because I really loved both of these pieces, which I had never heard before. I find them brilliant and very engaging, and naturally I will listen to them again several times and plan to acquire at least one more version of them (and number 2, as well), availing myself of the commentary going back eight years in this thread.

Reviewers of the Ozawa/CSO box that I've read are not favorable toward the Bartok pieces, but it's not clear to me whether the problems they have are with Ozawa (lots of haters out there), Serkin, or the compositions. I can only say that I not only don't find anything wrong with the performances, but actually find them splendid. The sound quality is very good, too. This is without knowledge of other versions, as I said. I am surprised that none of the Bartok experts who have contributed to this thread mentioned the Ozawa/CSO/Serkin verions. Are they that bad compared to the others?

An aside: I don't go out of my way to collect Ozawa, but I have a serious soft spot for him. I grew up just down the street from Ravinia, and starting in the summer of 1964, after I'd finished second grade, my parents "took me with" to several concerts there each summer. We rode our bikes and ate picnics on the lawn. My family (parents and older siblings) were greatly smitten with Ozawa at that time; he was the music director/conductor of the Ravinia Festival from 1963 to 1968. I have a few specific memories of the "shows," such as my parents' rapture over a performance of Barber's Piano Concerto with John Browning as soloist.

Franz


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## Allegro Con Brio

These are some of my favorite piano concerti, but I've only ever heard 2 pianists play them - Anda with all 3 and Argerich for the 3rd. I don't see how it could possibly get better than Anda/Fricsay - sparkling, witty, dancing, introspective all when needed, in crystal-clear sound. Any others that are essential for lovers of these works to hear? Perhaps the Donohoe/Rattle?


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## flamencosketches

I love the Anda/Fricsay/Berlin RSO set too. I have no desire to expand my collection just yet, but I do hope someday to hear the Schiff/Fischer and maybe also the Pollini. 

This thread prompted me to put on the 3rd concerto now. Damn fine work. I don't know why some people say it's lesser than the first two. Sounds just as good to my ears.


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## Kreisler jr

Allegro Con Brio said:


> These are some of my favorite piano concerti, but I've only ever heard 2 pianists play them - Anda with all 3 and Argerich for the 3rd. I don't see how it could possibly get better than Anda/Fricsay - sparkling, witty, dancing, introspective all when needed, in crystal-clear sound. Any others that are essential for lovers of these works to hear? Perhaps the Donohoe/Rattle?


I might have heard the latter in the mid-1990s when it was new but I have no clear memory. 
The Anda/Fricsay is very hard to beat. It seems to encompass both the modern, the "weird" sounds, but also the Hungarian feeling altogether like few others, when I compared a few recordings some time ago, it also came out as best although I didn't really dislike any of the others. 
For a more steely, "modern" reading of 1+2 you could try Pollini/Abbado (DG). Or Kocsis/Fischer (but I only have their disc with #3 + early (concert length) "Scherzo").


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## Heck148

Kreisler jr said:


> .......For a more steely, "modern" reading of 1+2 you could try Pollini/Abbado (DG).


I have these, and enjoy them very much...."steely' is a good description....they're pretty hard-edged, but it fits the music well...


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