# Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers and works of the late romantic era



## Roger Knox

*Neglected late romantic German and Austrian orchestral music and composers*

As a new member, I see a lot of interest in this area on TalkClassical and hope this thread will help us connect and discuss, specifically: music, recordings, composers. "Late romantic" is intentionally flexible here, as is "neglected." On this Forum, I recently started the thread _Franz Schmidt Symphony No. 2_ beautifully recorded by Semyon Bychkov/Vienna Philharmonic, and through doing that learned there are several recordings of Schmidt's excellent symphonies, though live performances and general awareness are still lacking. Here's a question:

What is _distinctive _about Schmidt's orchestral music (all of it or any work or movement)?


----------



## chill782002

I've never heard of Franz Schmidt, will have to check out some of his work. Thanks for the recommendation. However, neglected late romantic Austro-German composers who definitely deserve more attention include Joachim Raff, Hans Rott, Siegmund von Hausegger and Robert Fuchs. Richard Wetz is a good example of a previously neglected composer of this school who has achieved a somewhat increased level of fame in recent years, hopefully the same will eventually happen for these other composers. I'm sure there are even more that I am still completely unaware of.


----------



## Bulldog

chill782002 said:


> I've never heard of Franz Schmidt, will have to check out some of his work. Thanks for the recommendation. However, neglected late romantic Austro-German composers who definitely deserve more attention include Joachim Raff, Hans Rott, Siegmund von Hausegger and Robert Fuchs. Richard Wetz is a good example of a previously neglected composer of this school who has achieved a somewhat increased level of fame in recent years, hopefully the same will eventually happen for these other composers. I'm sure there are even more that I am still completely unaware of.


I'm surprised you haven't heard of Franz Schmidt; there are many recordings of his works compared to a small number for Wetz.

As it happens, Schmidt's Book of the Seven Seals is doing quite well in the sacred choral knockout game currently in action.


----------



## David Phillips

It's been said that Schmidt was a sort of Austrian Elgar in that both composers explored a vein of nobility absent in the music of most of their contemporaries. While their musical styles are not really similar, there are many passages in both men's music that are inspirational with a strong element of nostalgia that their fans find very appealing. Interestingly Schmidt supported the Nazis, whereas Elgar, though a staunch Conservative had many Jewish friends and would have been appalled at Hitler's racial policies.


----------



## Roger Knox

Thank you David for your bringing up the question of Schmidt's behaviour during the Nazi era. Schmidt also had many Jewish friends and was no Nazi, but he collaborated after the German-Austrian Anschluss of 1938 (he was terminally ill and died in 1939). There is relevant reader-friendly information now available on the internet written by historians, academic music specialists, and music critics that is worth reading, not only on Schmidt but on other composers of this period.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Max Reger (1873-1916) - a famous enough figure but only the Mozart and Hiller Variations have endured in any kind of way from his orchestral output which when taken as a whole amounts to about 8 hours of music. Fans call his music complex - detractors tend to consider it stodgy and over-busy. And he didn't get around to writing a proper symphony either.


----------



## Lenny

I think Franz Schmidt is (was) being neglected because of the assumed nazi connections. If he would have moved to America like almost all the rest, maybe things could have been different.

But all that is of course nonsense, let his music speak. And that music is original and magnificent. I don't know how exactly it is distinctive, but his music is in this sense similar to all great composers: you can immediately recognize it's him.

Schmidt's 1st symphony is something special to me personally, and I have no idea why. I listen to it weekly, and never get tired of it. It may be that I'm just using his music for making _myself_ distinctive, who knows. I don't, nor do I care.


----------



## chill782002

Wetz was an enthusiastic Nazi although he died in 1935. It's reasonable to assume that at least part of the reason he was largely forgotten until quite recently was due to this. However, I prefer to judge composers on their work rather than their political views, however distasteful those might be.


----------



## chill782002

Rudi Stephan is another name worth mentioning, his works are very interesting although there aren't that many due to his tragic early death in the First World War.


----------



## David Phillips

Lenny said:


> I think Franz Schmidt is (was) being neglected because of the assumed nazi connections. If he would have moved to America like almost all the rest, maybe things could have been different.
> 
> But all that is of course nonsense, let his music speak. And that music is original and magnificent. I don't know how exactly it is distinctive, but his music is in this sense similar to all great composers: you can immediately recognize it's him.
> 
> Schmidt's 1st symphony is something special to me personally, and I have no idea why. I listen to it weekly, and never get tired of it. It may be that I'm just using his music for making _myself_ distinctive, who knows. I don't, nor do I care.


One reason why Schmidt is a great composer is that he was technically very adept. He had his own unique style of orchestration which can be lush but never sickly. He would sometimes use the same harmonic sidesteps that Richard Strauss is famous for, but for me, Schmidt's compositions are much more serious and profound than Strauss's. One of my favourites is his Piano Quintet in G. I can't understand why this music has not entered the chamber repertory. It's an absolute beauty and certainly the equal of the Brahms Piano Quintet - which is saying a very great deal.


----------



## Xaltotun

Just finished listening to _Das Buch mit Sieben Siegeln_... I've known this work for long but haven't listened to it in a while. I'm almost physically shaking now. Maybe it can be seen as a black counterpart to Haydn's magnificient and radiant _Die Schöpfung._ The un-creation. Peeling apart layers from reality one by one until nothing is left and a cold, new light shines through, unobstructed. HALLELUJAH!

In addition, I always bring Walter Braunfels up in discussions like this. Check out his _Te Deum_, a serious and monumental affair.


----------



## Art Rock

Not yet mentioned, but worth exploring is Hans Pfitzner, especially his orchestral songs (CPO CD).


----------



## Azol

Felix Weingartner has left a vast number of orchestral compositions - 7 symphonies, various poems and overtures etc.


----------



## Roger Knox

My thanks for all your informative, thoughtful responses to, "What is _distinctive_ about Schmidt's orchestral music?" To summarize: David notes Schmidt's vein of nobility, and inspirational passages with a strong element of nostalgia; David later adds Schmidt's technical adeptness e.g. uniquely lush but not sickly orchestration, and Straussian harmonic sidesteps in works much more profound than Strauss's. Lenny immediately recognizes that Schmidt's music is by him, and never tires of the personally special Symphony No.1. I concur with all this, noting also a distinct sense of "historical time" in Schmidt's Second Symphony: the 2nd m. goes from a simple early 19th-century-style theme to a closing up-to-date scherzo in waltz time; the 3rd m. starting from strict 18th-century counterpoint, builds to a huge brass chorale plus complex late-19th-century orchestral adornment by the end. Can anyone think of a work or movement before Schmidt that progresses "historically through music?"


----------



## Art Rock

Roger Knox said:


> Can anyone think of a work or movement before Schmidt that progresses "historically through music?"


Spohr - Symphony 6 (link).


----------



## Orfeo

*Felix Draeseke* comes to mind. I find his First Symphony highly rewarding (the middle movements are quite terrific) and its successors are fine (esp. the Third). He was highly regarded during his lifetime.

While I agree that *Schmidt* deserves a mentioning in regards to this topic (as does *Robert Fuchs*, by the way), *Karl Goldmark* is also worth a mention, at least in my estimation. The 1990s was sort of a renaissance in the promotion of his works (via recordings most of all), and the Queen of Sheba is getting its dues, if slowly and unevenly. But this otherwise fine composer has ways to go to get himself more firmly in the repertoire.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Schmidt, Reger, Hausegger (Natursymphonie), Schreker, Braunfels and Marx.


----------



## Roger Knox

Art Rock said:


> Spohr - Symphony 6 (link).


Thank you Art Rock, I had never heard of this interesting earlier work, which begins stylistically in the Baroque and goes ahead historically with successive movements. I think Schmidt's _Symphony No. 2_ is less clear cut -- there is more interweaving of ideas.


----------



## Roger Knox

Azol said:


> Felix Weingartner has left a vast number of orchestral compositions - 7 symphonies, various poems and overtures etc.


Thanks Azol for your message. I have listened with pleasure to Symphonies 1 and 4 of the fine Marko Letoja/Sinfonieorchester Basel set:

No. 1 -- listening to the 2nd movement for the first time I heard the opening motif's rhythm as being too-often repeated (though with varying pitches); the second time I heard it as a _march_, and it made sense -- reminder of the ceremonial side of orchestral music then
No. 4 -- more genial and relaxed than No. 1; the second movement is on the cute side, but I like the symphony overall. As with No. 1 there is more context -- certainly waltz, maybe folk or popular song, a woman Weingartner was in love with ...


----------



## clavichorder

I can't seem to get into it any more than I can Raff, but it's worth mentioning Max Bruch. Apart from the famous Violin Concerto no. 1, he wrote three symphonies.

Ferdinand Hiller was a little earlier, but wrote some piano concerti and apparently symphonies. This one in F minor is nice:


----------



## Roger Knox

*Early Modernists?* Not a rant, I hope!

Thanks for mentioning Bruch in this context -- I have a lot of listening to do, given the number of suggestions. A week into this thread all composers named have been worth hearing, at the very least!

A general issue I'd like to raise is the recent New Musicological practice of calling Strauss, Mahler and contemporaries Early Modernists. Late Romanticism covers a long period; some use Postromantics or Neoromantics for certain composers. Fine, as a non-musicologist I'm not so fussy with terminology. But "Early Modernists?" Both Mahler and Strauss were innovative but I can't hear them as other than late Romantic, in a new phase if you like. And if they are Early Modernists, what are Schmidt, Hausegger, Marx, Korngold, and others -- chopped liver?


----------



## Roger Knox

clavichorder said:


> I can't seem to get into it any more than I can Raff, but it's worth mentioning Max Bruch. Apart from the famous Violin Concerto no. 1, he wrote three symphonies.[/url]


I'm very fond of Bruch's _Third Symphony_ (1887), at least as recorded by James Conlon/Koelner Philharmoniker. It is spirited and the slow movement is especially beautiful. Definitely one I'll go back to!


----------



## Der Titan

I am German, maybe the German point of view is a bit differant?

Max Reger is simply a very difficult composer. His Mozart variations are very popular, but if you know only the Mozart variations, you don't know the real Reger. Reger is as a matter of fact a more modern composer. Part of this modernity is that he writes what he calls "musical prose". That does mean that we are all used to listen to "musical poetry" which means that music is thought in periods who may last mostly 8 bars. But in Regers music a musical period can last 5,6 or 7 bars, this is what Reger call's musical prose. But this somehow disappoints our expectations. So Reger is not part of the Vienese school. But in this respect he is certainly a kind of an avantgarde composer. And that makes his music difficult. Not the Mozart variations but for example most parts of his chamber music. I love his chamber music, especially his string quartetts ( the Opus 74 is a great work). But it's really difficult and it lasts some time until you grasp the real essence of the music. The attitude to Max Reger in Germany is mostly, that he is a very important composer and nobody would call him second-rate but he is difficult. He may have written some works who are more popular like the Mozart variations but the genuine Reger lays behind it and this genuine Reger is something very difficult to understand but deeply respected. 

So much for Max Reger. For other composers. I know music of Franz Schmidt, a bit Bruch, Pfitzner sometimes is beautifull, Rudi Stephan very talented and there may be some others. But most of these composers are seen as very good composers, but nevertheless a bit second-rate ( but only a bit). Not Max Reger, who is seen more as a very difficult composer.


----------



## Roger Knox

Der Titan said:


> The attitude to Max Reger in Germany is mostly, that he is a very important composer and nobody would call him second-rate but he is difficult. He may have written some works who are more popular like the Mozart variations but the genuine Reger lays behind it and this genuine Reger is something very difficult to understand but deeply respected.


Your account of Max Reger in Germany rings true! Despite our efforts, he is less appreciated here in Canada than in Germany. I love his piano and organ music; during the 1970's I performed the piano Prelude and Fugue in D minor from op. 99. Also I was blessed to hear in concert Jorge Bolet play the Telemann variations and Gerhard Wuensch the Bach. Thank you for recommending Reger's difficult chamber music. As for his more popular Mozart orchestra variations, the mastery of orchestration and harmony is still impressive. In Canada we hear Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, and Strauss, which is great, but the other composers for orchestra are only known on recordings. Posters on this thread are helping me sort them out -- if anyone knows a reference (including German-language) that discusses these other composers seriously please let me know.


----------



## hpowders

Franz Schmidt Fourth Symphony. Not a masterpiece, but definitely worthy.

Zubin Mehta/Vienna Philharmonic is as good as it gets.


----------



## Triplets

Franz Schreker, the German Impressionist, is an interest of mine


----------



## Roger Knox

hpowders said:


> Franz Schmidt Fourth Symphony. Not a masterpiece, but definitely worthy.
> Zubin Mehta/Vienna Philharmonic is as good as it gets.


A noble, moving work by a composer who knew the face of tragedy -- Mehta and the Vienna Philharmonic give it their all.


----------



## JJF

Art Rock said:


> Spohr - Symphony 6 (link).


Wonderful! Thanks for the link.


----------



## hpowders

Roger Knox said:


> A noble, moving work by a composer who knew the face of tragedy -- Mehta and the Vienna Philharmonic give it their all.


That haunting opening trumpet solo is memorable.


----------



## pjang23

Erno Dohnanyi, one of the true successors of Brahms who wrote a wealth of chamber music, symphonies and concertos which are conspicuously absent from the repertory.

Violin Concerto No.1
Piano Concerto No.1
Piano Quintet No.1
Piano Quintet No.2


----------



## starthrower

Zemlinsky


----------



## Roger Knox

clavichorder said:


> ... it's worth mentioning Max Bruch. Apart from the famous Violin Concerto no. 1, he wrote three symphonies.


Having listened now to all three Bruch symphonies I think No. 3 is the best overall. No. 1 has fine opening and slow movements, along with a Scherzo that begins well. But the Trio and the last movement are more "usual." Symphony No. 2 is more melancholy, well-formed and orchestrated as is usually the case with Bruch. I prefer the more expressive and tonally-beautiful Masur/Leipzig Gewandhaus recordings to the Conlon/ Sinfonie Koeln, though the latter have their moments in Symphony No. 3.


----------



## Roger Knox

I plan to make a chronological list to help keep track of the composers and representative works in this thread! Unless there already is one somewhere?


----------



## Roger Knox

*Nature Works on YouTube*

Nature and Romantic Music are an obvious fit, but in the late Romantic era there were different takes on nature. To me the best of the following four compositions is Siegmund von Hausegger's philosophical _Natursymphonie_(1911). All four movements are strong, and as a conductor he learned a lot from his composer contemporaries. The dark slow movement with its haunting bassoon opening and fearsome closing procession is deep, as is the uneasy scherzo. The choral finale is very moving at the close. I'd love to hear this first-class composition live, but where?

Joseph Marx's _Natur-trilogie_(Sloane/Bochum Symphony) includes three tone poems. The first, Symphonic Night Music, reminds me of being in a hot-house with all sorts of exotic plants and flowers! His harmony and orchestral figures are endlessly intriguing, but the work meanders. I like the last tone poem, Spring Music, as it has a fresh feel and is more forward-directed. Max von Schillings' _Two Symphonic Fantasies_ (1895) are not explicitly about nature but the first, Sea Greeting, is an effective sea narrative worth hearing. The second, Lake Morning, is a puzzle with its march rhythm and annoying Scotch-snap motifs. (As an administrator, Von Schillings was to his dishonour responsible for dismissing well-known Jewish musicians and from posts when the Nazis took power.) Finally, conductor Leo Blech wrote _A Walk in the Forest_ (1901), a mood portrait for orchestra. Definitely on the light side, I sense that the walk is hand in hand ...

Looking forward to listening to Zemlinsky and Schreker next!


----------



## Roger Knox

Franz Schreker (1878-1934) I am not very familiar with, but based on hearing such first-rate works as the _Romantische Suite_ (1903), _Phantastische Ouvertüre_ (1904), and _Chamber Symphony_ (1916) he certainly counts as one of the most significant of the neglected masters. In recent years his music has been revived, including the operas for which he was well-known. During the 1920's he was a professor in Berlin but as a Jew he was undermined by Nazi supporters, and forced to resign in 1932.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Roger, are you seeking any recommendations for Max Reger's lesser-known orchestral works or have you already made some inroads?


----------



## Roger Knox

Thanks, I would like some recommendations for works and recordings for Reger, beyond the Mozart Variations. 

In fact, for me this thread has brought to light far more composers, works, and recordings than I realized existed -- believe me, there is a lot! This a good thing but too much for my limited time and knowledge. Please, if anyone wishes to add relevant information or comments -- or even mention other threads on TalkClassical -- that would help.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Nearly all of Max Reger's orchestral works were composed during the final ten years of his life - the two featured on this recording are from 1906 and I would say are among his most accessible as far as his orchestral output goes. The _Suite im alten Stil_ is also available in a version for violin and piano.

Unfortunately the item below isn't cheap these days but I can't source another recording of the _Serenade_ which is a shame as it's as bouncy as Reger was ever likely to get! Perhaps it can be streamed from somewhere?


----------



## Marsilius

Paul Büttner (1870-1943) wrote four symphonies. They can all be heard on YouTube. The fourth is, I think, especially impressive.


----------



## Robert Gamble

It's funny.. One of the first CDs I got in my sudden obsession with Classical music late last year was a combination Schmidt 4th and Mahler 2nd by Mehta. I just assumed that Schmidt was a widely known composer because of that. Rediscovering him now based on this thread.


----------



## Roger Knox

Having listened now to several works for orchestra by Zemlinsky on YouTube, I highly recommend Die Seejungfrau (The Mermaid, 1902-3, Chailly/RPO Berlin), The Lyric Symphony, and the Sinfonietta -- the latter two written significantly later. His early Symphony No. 1 (1892) and Symphony No. 2 (1896) are worth hearing and show where he was coming from.


----------



## Roger Knox

Following upon Zemlinsky here's a salute to his student prodigy Erich Wolfgang Korngold (1897-1957) who, though he is hardly neglected as a film composer, also merits ongoing attention for his operas, songs and instrumental music. In his incredible teens Korngold wrote three mature orchestral works: the _Schauspiel-Ouvertuere_ (1913!), the four-movement _Sinfonietta_, and the overture_ Sursum Corda_, that were fully up-to date in style and orchestration. Much later he composed the Symphony in F# (1950), which includes music in a more modern idiom but also reminisces on his youth in the heartfelt third movement Adagio. I've listened repeatedly to the Storgards/Helsinki recording with pleasure, and would feel remiss if Korngold wasn't mentioned on this thread.


----------



## Roger Knox

Robert Gamble said:


> It's funny.. One of the first CDs I got in my sudden obsession with Classical music late last year was a combination Schmidt 4th and Mahler 2nd by Mehta. I just assumed that Schmidt was a widely known composer because of that. Rediscovering him now based on this thread.


Glad to hear you are re-discovering Schmidt; a lot of people are! I started this thread in response to a reply on my first TalkClassical thread ever, on Schmidt's wonderful _Symphony No. 2_. Mehta's No. 4 is insightful and expressive!


----------



## Robert Gamble

Roger Knox said:


> Glad to hear you are re-discovering Schmidt; a lot of people are! I started this thread in response to a reply on my first TalkClassical thread ever, on Schmidt's wonderful _Symphony No. 2_. Mehta's No. 4 is insightful and expressive!


I listened to Schmidt's 2nd earlier today and liked it a lot. I admit to listening to it at work, but it'll fold itself into my 'really listen to it' repertoire when I have the time. Unfortunately with a 6 month old baby and work, I rarely have that time...


----------



## Roger Knox

I recently made a tasty discovery, the four symphonies of Austrian-British composer Hans Gal (1890-1987), beautifully recorded by Kenneth Woods/Orchestra of the Swan. As a Jew, Gal left Austria for Britain in the 1930's. I like the symphonies for their wit, elegance, and feeling, especially Nos. 1 and 2. Gal has been said to follow in the line of Brahms (and not Wagner); he seems to have a unique way of integrating late Romanticism with modern neo-Classical aspects. Noticed a shout-out in the Finale of No. 2 to the chordal woodwind theme of Viennese compatriot Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2, middle movement, with its 2-note motif. I think that this brief quoting is done by these composers as a sign of respect that the players and some in the audience would recognize, not plagiarism at all!


----------



## chill782002

Roger Knox said:


> I recently made a tasty discovery, the four symphonies of Austrian-British composer Hans Gal (1890-1987), beautifully recorded by Kenneth Woods/Orchestra of the Swan. As a Jew, Gal left Austria for Britain in the 1930's. I like the symphonies for their wit, elegance, and feeling, especially Nos. 1 and 2. Gal has been said to follow in the line of Brahms (and not Wagner); he seems to have a unique way of integrating late Romanticism with modern neo-Classical aspects. Noticed a shout-out in the Finale of No. 2 to the chordal woodwind theme of Viennese compatriot Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2, middle movement, with its 2-note motif. I think that this brief quoting is done by these composers as a sign of respect that the players and some in the audience would recognize, not plagiarism at all!


I have never heard of this composer. Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## Roger Knox

Xaltotun said:


> In addition, I always bring Walter Braunfels up in discussions like this. Check out his _Te Deum_, a serious and monumental affair.


Thank you Xalthoun I just got around to listening to some of Braunfels (a composer I'd never heard of), though not the _Te Deum _ yet. Certainly his earlier works are late Romantic or postromantic and he does especially well with variation forms, regardless of what title they receive. His virtuosic _Sinfonia brevis _ and _Prelude and Fugue for orchestra_ show his wild side too! I especially enjoy the lyricism in no. 4 of the _Fantastic Appearances on a Theme of Berlioz_. Great to know -- thanks!


----------



## Roger Knox

_"Late Romantic" turns out to occupy a fair swath of time._ Named on this thread are both Ferdinand Hiller born in 1811, and Erich Korngold born in 1897! But the term was intended to be vague, and this response maybe shows that "late Romantic" is a very large notion that encompasses much good music. Hard to believe Schreker was the only one on List 3 whose music I'd heard before starting this thread! From names posters have mentioned, I'm making three lists of composers:
1. born before 1850 
2. born 1850-74
3. born 1875-1900

Here are criteria for these lists:
- they've written orchestra music, e.g. symphony, symphonic poem, overture, suite (originally for orch.) variations, other forms 
- they are German or Austrian
- they are seen as at least somewhat "neglected" as composers
- their music is worth hearing at least

List 3 in chronological order of birth: *Richard Wetz* (b. 1875), *Bruno Walter* (b. 1876), *Franz Schreker* (b. 1878), *Walter Braunfels* (b. 1882), *Joseph Marx *(b. 1882*), Wilhelm Furtwaengler *(b. 1886), *Hans Gal* (b. 1890), *Erich Korngold* (b. 1897).

Please post comments or criticisms! Next steps are to do List 2 and List 1. After that to add names of selected compositions. Just want to mention that I won't be including concertos, orchestral songs, music for the stage, choral music on the list of selected compositions to keep the amount of listening reasonable, but comments on the thread in these areas are welcome!


----------



## Roger Knox

elgars ghost said:


> Nearly all of Max Reger's orchestral works were composed during the final ten years of his life
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't gotten to the above works yet, but the 4 Boecklin tone poems, Romantic Suite, Sinfonietta, and Lyric Adagio are what I've been listening to with delight -- great pieces that are both attractive and original. The tone poems are sometimes programmed separately and I think that could work with the Suite also -- audiences would like them, even outside of Germany. Here in Canada, the homeland of Glenn Gould, I think Reger's prodigiousness and eccentricity shouldn't be barriers! Re the works in which the fast harmonic rhythm (rate of chord change) may be found a deterrent, could someone perhaps make a presentation with digital slowed-down excerpts that would make his music easier to understand?
Click to expand...


----------



## Lenny

Marsilius said:


> Paul Büttner (1870-1943) wrote four symphonies. They can all be heard on YouTube. The fourth is, I think, especially impressive.


When I listened the 4th I thought this is just one (pretty good) Strauss advocate, but it has been growing lately. I think Büttner seriously kicks some bütt. It's like R.Strauss went back to school learning some old skool with the Big Boys (Wagner, Bruckner...).

Too bad only the 4th symphony seems to be available online with good quality (Spotify).

Very nice find, thank you!


----------



## Roger Knox

One composer that hasn't been mentioned yet is Wilhelm Furtwaengler (1886-1957). His 3 symphonies are well-orchestrated and show mastery of harmony and texture. They are not simply late 19th-century throwbacks: on the contrary, the 2nd and moreso the 3rd include 20th-century scales, dissonant chords, and counterpoint. I like the 2nd (Barenboim/Chicago Symphony), especially the first three movements which create distinctive atmospheres; the scherzo is well-done. The last movement strikes me as too long, but the final minutes are effective! The 3rd (Bavarian State Orchestra/Sawallisch) again has a strong scherzo and slow movement. Furtwaengler was a master of the orchestra but lacked the melodic gifts and Viennese "charm" of his contemporaries who also wrote in a Romantic vein: Joseph Marx (b. 1882) and Erich Korngold (b. 1897).


----------



## Roger Knox

Bruno Walter's _Symphony No. 1_ (1907) is an attractive and effective work with all his technical accomplishment in composing for orchestra on display, and it is more _sympatisch_ than Furtwaengler's symphonies. Especially like the slow movement's mood and grace. His 3rd m. waltz is boisterous with a sense of parody, the trio is very affecting. The symphony has bits here and there that seem commonplace, but it's definitely worth getting to know and I'm going to check out other music by Walter. Is there a recording of Walter's _Symphony No. 2_ yet?


----------



## chill782002

Roger Knox said:


> One composer that hasn't been mentioned yet is Wilhelm Furtwaengler (1886-1957). His 3 symphonies are well-orchestrated and show mastery of harmony and texture. They are not simply late 19th-century throwbacks: on the contrary, the 2nd and moreso the 3rd include 20th-century scales, dissonant chords, and counterpoint. I like the 2nd (Barenboim/Chicago Symphony), especially the first three movements which create distinctive atmospheres; the scherzo is well-done. The last movement strikes me as too long, but the final minutes are effective! The 3rd (Bavarian State Orchestra/Sawallisch) again has a strong scherzo and slow movement. Furtwaengler was a master of the orchestra but lacked the melodic gifts and Viennese "charm" of his contemporaries who also wrote in a Romantic vein: Joseph Marx (b. 1882) and Erich Korngold (b. 1897).


I really like Furtwangler's Symphony No 2 although my copy is the 1953 live performance by Furtwangler himself with the Wiener Philharmoniker. Made me think of a cross between Bruckner and Stravinsky.


----------



## Roger Knox

Lenny said:


> Too bad only the 4th symphony seems to be available online with good quality (Spotify).


Lenny, I hear what you mean about quality. Yesterday I was annoyed at the poor audio of the Buettner Symphony No. 1 on You Tube, played by an orchestra of student musicians at the Hochschule in Dresden during the 1950's. In effect, I do not think I have listened to this work yet, no comments for now.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Looking ahead: possible list of composers born 1850-74*

Moving backwards from the previously posted List 3 (orchestral composers born 1875-1900), obviously the generation born 1850-74 is dominated by two geniuses: Gustav Mahler (b. 1860) and Richard Strauss (b. 1864). Neither is neglected, though Mahler was for a time. Max Reger (b. 1873) is also a genius but his orchestral music is still neglected, at least in North America.

A possible list of the neglected, born 1850-74: Hans Rott (b. 1858), Felix Weingartner (b. 1863), Max von Schillings (b. 1868), Hans Pfitzner (b. 1869), Siegfried Wagner (b. 1869), Alexander Zemlinsky (b. 1871), Siegmund von Haussegger (b. 1872), Max Reger (b. 1873), and Franz Schmidt (b. 1874). Still pondering Paul Buettner (b. 1870)... Arnold Schoenberg (b. 1874) moved on from late Romanticism; his fine, early _Verklaerte Nacht _and _Pelleas and Melissande _ might include him here but I don't consider him neglected. In the sense used by Der Titan in an earlier post re Reger, Schoenberg is difficult and more. I'm stating this as a composer and modernist myself!

I really appreciate this thread's friendly tone! Love the info and comments and hope for more!


----------



## Lenny

Roger Knox said:


> Lenny, I hear what you mean about quality. Yesterday I was annoyed at the poor audio of the Buettner Symphony No. 1 on You Tube, played by an orchestra of student musicians at the Hochschule in Dresden during the 1950's. In effect, I do not think I have listened to this work yet, no comments for now.


If you have access to Spotify, I recommend the 4th symphony (only decent recording I could find). It's excellent music.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Views on Richard Wetz*



chill782002 said:


> Wetz was an enthusiastic Nazi although he died in 1935. It's reasonable to assume that at least part of the reason he was largely forgotten until quite recently was due to this. However, I prefer to judge composers on their work rather than their political views, however distasteful those might be.


I'm sure Wetz's Symphonies Nos. 2 & 3 would be played more, were it not for his brutal politics. For me his orchestral music from the _Kleist Overture _(1908) through the 3 symphonies keeps getting better. Some commentaries suggest Wetz preferred Erfurt to a larger musical centre, but that doesn't mean he stood still there. The Kleist is well-composed but mid-19th-century Romantic; with _Symphony No. 1_(1917) he's moved on stylistically, but square-cut phrases plus some lapses of taste are problems. By _Symphony No. 2_ (1919; Kodama/Osaka Symphony) he's absorbed the Bruckner influence and improved his craftsmanship. It's a fine work, especially the 1st and 2nd movements! My favourite of his orchestra works is the more inventive _Symphony No. 3_ (1922; Albert/Sinfonieorchester Rheinland-Pfalz), with its great individual touches such as the unexpected harmonization of the opening movement's second subject.

As mentioned in a previous post I'm moving on to composers born 1850-74; there are plenty more born 1875-1900 we haven't touched on. Keep those recordings coming, O small labels:angel:


----------



## chill782002

Roger Knox said:


> I'm sure Wetz's Symphonies Nos. 2 & 3 would be played more, were it not for his brutal politics. For me his orchestral music from the _Kleist Overture _(1908) through the 3 symphonies keeps getting better. Some commentaries suggest Wetz preferred Erfurt to a larger musical centre, but that doesn't mean he stood still there. The Kleist is well-composed but mid-19th-century Romantic; with _Symphony No. 1_(1917) he's moved on stylistically, but square-cut phrases plus some lapses of taste are problems. By _Symphony No. 2_ (1919; Kodama/Osaka Symphony) he's absorbed the Bruckner influence and improved his craftsmanship. It's a fine work, especially the 1st and 2nd movements! My favourite of his orchestra works is the more inventive _Symphony No. 3_ (1922; Albert/Sinfonieorchester Rheinland-Pfalz), with its great individual touches such as the unexpected harmonization of the opening movement's second subject.


Totally agree, I'm starting to rank Wetz as one of the better late Romantic composers. He might not have been as innovative as Mahler and his influence by Bruckner is obvious but his work is very melodic and of a consistently high standard. His Violin Concerto and Requiem are also very good.


----------



## Roger Knox

Hans Rott has gained frequent attention in chat-rooms, but I wish I could hear his music in concert! His _Symphony in E Major_ (1878) is a splendid work. All 4 movements are of high calibre; the only thing I don't get is that movements 3 and 4 are on a larger scale than 1 and 2. His musical relationship to Mahler is work exploring in depth -- anyone know a good source?


----------



## Roger Knox

Hans Rott left us more music for orchestra than the _Symphony in E Major_. In the _Overture to Julius Caesar _ he stays close to the symphony in style. I find the _Pastoral Prelude_ (RSO of Vienna/ Dennis Russell Davies) more original, especially in harmony where several passages really made me listen up!

Either would grace an orchestra program IMO.


----------



## Roger Knox

Azol said:


> Felix Weingartner has left a vast number of orchestral compositions - 7 symphonies, various poems and overtures etc.


Felix Weingartner's Symphony no. 2 (1900) is a joyous, attractive work! In the first movement I like the jagged upward first theme and the folk-like elements later on. The "scherzo" is a rollicking affair, while the lyrical Adagio has a soft brass chorale section that is haunting for me. The Symphony No. 3 (1910) opens in a pastoral mood; later he incorporates the whole tone scale and uses 7th and 9th chords freely. Both fine works -- why don't we hear of them, let alone hear them? I think Weingartner is accused of sounding like a mixture of other composers or else, anachronistically, of sounding like film music! Baloney.


----------



## Roger Knox

Art Rock said:


> Not yet mentioned, but worth exploring is Hans Pfitzner, especially his orchestral songs (CPO CD).


I've sort of been avoiding Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949) whose music I barely know. In this thread I'm skipping over concertos and vocal-orchestral works which IMO are along with the operas his best compositions. As for his three late symphonies, I have listened to No. 1 in C#- (1932) on YouTube. Unfortunately the Deutsche Oper Berlin/H. Schmidt-Isserstadt's wartime version has poor audio with too much treble and I find the interpretation lacking nuance -- not recommended. The later Bamberg Symphony/Heinrich Hollreiser version (conducting misattributed on YouTube to Joseph Keilburth,) has much better pacing and somewhat better audio. On this slim basis I think it's a worthy piece with Pfitzner's characteristic energy and skill at writing long lines plus meaningful counterpoint.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Oops! - Errors & omissions in previous post*

The _ Symphony in C# Minor _ is an arrangement of Pfitzner's _String Quartet No. 3 _ -- most unusual!

More recently, it is included in a set of his complete works for orchestra including concertos from the early 1990's, by the Bamberg Symphony/Albert on CPO. Looking forward to hearing that.


----------



## Eramire156

Franz schmidt's 4th is to be performed by the Berlin Philharmoniker conducted by Kirill Petrenko their chief conductor designate in April, I for one will be listening.


----------



## Roger Knox

Thanks for your notice! And Yuja Wang is playing the Prokofiev Third Piano Concerto on the same program. Looks like a great concert!


----------



## Roger Knox

*Hans Pfitzner's works for orchestra alone*

In addition to the _Symphony in C# minor_ Op. 36a (1932) mentioned earlier, Pfitzner's youthful _Scherzo in C minor_(1887) is deft and spontaneous. Otherwise, in my opinion the concertos and orchestral songs of this significant composer are better than the works for orchestra alone. Of these wartime works I've listened to: 

_Small Symphony in G major_ Op. 44 (1939) 
_Elegy and Roundelay_ Op. 45 (1940)
_Symphony in C major_ Op. 46 (1940)
_Fantasie in A minor_ Op. 56 (1947)
They're worth hearing if one needs a complete picture of Pfitzner's music. Knowing what I do of how Pfitzner supported the Nazi cause throughout the Second World War, I won't listen again.


----------



## mbhaub

Eramire156 said:


> Franz schmidt's 4th is to be performed by the Berlin Philharmoniker conducted by Kirill Petrenko their chief conductor designate in April, I for one will be listening.


His performance on Youtube is terrific, but then I can't think of any bad recording of that magnificent symphony. I hope they'll make a commercial recording, and then take up the other three symphonies.


----------



## Roger Knox

*The Wonderful Max Reger*

Thoughts about Reger's wonderful _Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Hiller_ (1907): He is a great orchestrator. The work is 40 minutes long, but because his mind overflows with good ideas it's fine. I like to let his music carry me, a notion brought on by its richness. He has a sense of humour.

Reger's concert overtures are to my knowledge stand-alones, i.e. do not precede a stage work: _Symphonic Prologue to a Tragedy_ (1908) upon first hearing is not to my liking. It's very long for a prologue (34'' in the RSO Berlin/Albrecht recording). Repeatedly there are soft static passages followed by fortissimo outbursts -- musical expressionism? I'll read up and listen again. By contrast, _Eine Lustspielouvertuere _ (Overture to a Comedy, 1913) is a riotous roller-coaster ride . . .

By the way, _Maximum Reger_ is a well-reviewed 6DVD collection that came out earlier this year. It has a documentary and a generous selection of his works including the four symphonic poems based on Boecklin pictures, discussed earlier on this thread.


----------



## Roger Knox

pjang23 said:


> Erno Dohnanyi, one of the true successors of Brahms who wrote a wealth of chamber music, symphonies and concertos which are conspicuously absent from the repertory.


*Questions of Nationality:*

*Hungary:* No question *Erno Dohnanyi *was an excellent composer, pianist, and conductor who is neglected now. Trained in Germany, successor to Brahms, for a time used Ernst as his given name -- but still I associate him more with yet-to-be-independent *Hungary*, which at the time of his birth was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire under the Dual Monarchy. Actually he was born in Pressberg (now Bratislava, Slovakia) in 1877 and his professional career was based in Hungary, e.g. Budapest, until emigrating as an anti-Nazi to the U.S.A. 
Other excellent composers with my somewhat arbitrary assignments of nationality:
*The Netherlands:* Julius Rontgen was born in 1855 in Germany but his professional career was mainly spent in the Netherlands.
*Switzerland: Swiss-German * Ernest Bloch (b. 1880) began as a fine post-Romantic composer in the Wagnerian tradition, but soon brought his Jewish identity and musical heritage to the fore in a number of his compositions. Later emigrated to the U.S.A.

Concerning assignment of nationality there is no single principle that always applies. More important is to celebrate these composers and others associated with more than one country, and to play and hear their music.


----------



## Roger Knox

Correction to previous post: Erno Dohnanyi was based in Berlin 1905-15; only after the end of WWI was he based in Hungary. He used "Erno Dohnanyi" and identified as Hungarian but on his published scores he remained "Ernst von Dohnanyi" all his life.

Dohnanyi's city of birth (now Bratislava) was called Poszony in Hungarian, Pressberg in German. Interestingly, Franz Schmidt was born in the same city three years earlier (1874), and I've read that his parents were Hungarian (the surname would have been Germanized). But Schmidt went to Vienna to study and stayed there, so he is identified as Austrian.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Felix Weingartner again*

I haven't listened to Weingartner's _7th Symphony_, but Nos. 5 and 6 show him taking on new challenges._ Symphony No. 5_ has considerable Bruckner influence, e.g. in the use of brass, even though Weingartner didn't conduct Bruckner much. Indeed, between Bruckner's pastoral mysticism and Weingartner's Viennese suavity there is little in common. Yet except for the last movement's plodding fugue this work stands up pretty well, especially the Adagio. _Symphony No. 6_ is a special case, in honour of the 100th anniversary of Schubert's death, and including Weingartner's completion of the opening of Schubert's _Unfinished Symphony No. 8's_ third movement. It's not historically accurate to Schubert's time, but the two composers had Vienna in common, and Weingartner's homage to Schubert is genuine and heartfelt. My preference is still for Weingartner's 1st to 4th Symphonies, though.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> A possible list of the neglected, born 1850-74: Hans Rott (b. 1858), Felix Weingartner (b. 1863), Max von Schillings (b. 1868), Hans Pfitzner (b. 1869), Siegfried Wagner (b. 1869), Alexander Zemlinsky (b. 1871), Siegmund von Haussegger (b. 1872), Max Reger (b. 1873), and Franz Schmidt (b. 1874).


*Siegfried und Siegmund*

Richard Wagner (1813-82) composed the _Siegfried Idyll _ for his wife Cosima upon the birth of Siegfried. The son (1869-1930) followed his father in being mainly a composer of operas. Having listened to his symphonic poems _Sehnsucht _(1892-85), and _Gluck _(1922-23), and the slow movement of _Symphony No. 1_, I must say that I'm impressed by his remarkable lyric gift and imaginative mastery of his music for orchestra (though I think he resorts to sequences too often). The orchestral scherzo _Und wenn die Welt voll Teufel Waer_ (1922) shows his delightful streak of fantasy; perhaps his teacher Humperdinck had something to do with that. Deplorably, he and his wife Winnifred were supporters of the Nazis and on close terms with Hitler. He was gay and his wife later suppressed everything about him including his music.

Siegmund von Haussegger (1872-1948) also inherited his Wagnerism, from his father who wrote articles advocating the composer's ideas and music. His _Natursymphonie _ is quite well-known and reflects his love for the Alpine countryside. Lesser-known are the symphonic poems. _Barbarossa_ (1898/99) is based on the notion that Germany needs to awaken and be led by a strong leader like the 13th-century king Friedrich Barbarossa. _Wieland der Schmied_ (1904) is about a strong, humble smith who saves the beautiful Swanhilde from the evil Neidings. All these works are worth hearing. As a German nationalist Hausseger was vulnerable to lure of the Nazis and joined the party in the 1930's, pulling out too late to save his reputation.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Felix Weingartner - Last Time*

In addition to the symphonies Felix Weingartner wrote symphonic poems, overtures, and other works for orchestra. Here are my favourites:

_Das Gefilde der Seligen_ (The fields of Heaven, 1892): peaceful, pastoral music, long lyric line

_King Lear_ (1895): lots of variety, develops well, a wonderful Romantic melody beginning at 17:19 in the Sinfonieorchester Basle/Letonja recording. Note that the Viennese Weingartner was an influence on Korngold and therefore on the Hollywood film music of the 1930's-1950's (including Max Steiner and Franz Waxman too)

_Fruhling _(Spring): really the awakening from winter and the ominous birth of the new seasonal cycle in a pagan spirit

_Lustige Ouverture_ (1912): lively and witty, in the comic spirit

Done!


----------



## Roger Knox

Of German and Austrian orchestral composers born 1850-74 the most recognized are *Gustav Mahler *(1860-1911) and *Richard Strauss* (1864-1949). Following my numerous recent posts, here is a revised chronological list of neglected composers born in this rich generation:

*Hans Rott* (b. 1858), *Felix Weingartner *(b. 1863),* Siegfried Wagner *(b. 1869), *Paul Buettner *(b. 1870), *Alexander Zemlinsky *(b. 1871), *Siegmund von Hausegger *(b. 1872), *Max Reger *(b. 1873), and *Franz Schmidt *(b. 1874). There are already revivals of Reger, Zemlinsky and, most recently, Schmidt. I think Weingartner is the most accomplished of the others. And there are more composers who could have been included!


----------



## Roger Knox

*Taking a Break*

For the period of late Romantic composers born 1810-1850, *Johannes Brahms* (b. 1833) and *Anton Bruckner* (b. 1824) are well-recognized. And *Richard Wagner* (b. 1813) in his later phase looms over nearly everyone.

As for the neglected composers of the generation born 1810-1850, because of other commitments I'm going to take my leave of initiating discussions, researching composers, and listening to recordings. Everyone, please follow up as you wish, on this thread or elsewhere. I'll still be checking in, offering likes and occasional comments. I would like to thank you all for your interest and contributions, and hope we'll continue to discover and enjoy music and composers that matter!


----------



## Eramire156

The conservative catholic writer Robert R. Reilly is the author of the book *Surprised by Beauty: A Listener's Guide to the Recovery of Modern Music *covering many of the composers mentioned in this discussion, and while l hardly agree Reilly politically, myself being a lapsed catholic, gay and left leaning, find his musical writings informative.Roger Knox come back to us soon.


----------



## RichieWagon

This has probably been mentioned already, but I think that Joachim Raff deserves more attention. I would recommend his 5th symphony as a way to get into his music. 
What's so incredible about Raff is that his symphonies, while not generally works of genius, are never boring.


----------



## mbhaub

Decades ago, there was very little known about Raff and hearing his music was almost impossible. Two symphonies, 3 and 5, the piano concerto and that was about it. Now it's incredible! All of the symphonies have been recorded at least twice, the 5th many times. A huge amount of chamber music available, the violin and cello concertos, and a healthy amount of piano music. And it's about time! He was hugely important and popular in Europe and the US up until around 1900. Even Mahler and Toscanini played him. The 5th is the most popular for good reason, but the 3rd sure has its charms. I just wish more orchestras would be adventurous enough to play some of it live!


----------



## rw181383

Is anyone familiar with Emil von Reznicek? His symphonies, chamber music, and other works are worth looking into!


----------



## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> The 5th is the most popular for good reason, but the 3rd sure has its charms. I just wish more orchestras would be adventurous enough to play some of it live!


mbhaub -- Thanks for your Raff recommendation and comments! I've been listening to the _3rd Symphony _(Bamberg SO), which strikes me as both a nature symphony and a fantasy symphony. (Those orchestral types need particular investigation.) The first time it struck me as well-written and orchestrated but conventional. Now I realize that Raff was significant in his own right. I like the work very much overall, but wish it were 15 minutes shorter. The long march- or dance-like sections in the first and last movements may just be what people liked then, influenced by the opera, ballet, operetta and light music of the time. Will check out the _5th Symphony_ too.


----------



## bestellen

Too bad only the 4th symphony seems to be available online with good quality


----------



## Roger Knox

rw181383 said:


> Is anyone familiar with Emil von Reznicek? His symphonies, chamber music, and other works are worth looking into!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, completely missed him and his music! Emil von Reznicek (1860-1945) was born in Vienna, the same year as Mahler, was an intimate of the Richard Strauss circle, and held important positions.
> 
> Let us give his orchestral works a listen and see what we think.
Click to expand...


----------



## Roger Knox

Eramire156 said:


> The conservative catholic writer Robert R. Reilly is the author of the book *Surprised by Beauty: A Listener's Guide to the Recovery of Modern Music *covering many of the composers mentioned in this discussion, and while l hardly agree Reilly politically, myself being a lapsed catholic, gay and left leaning, find his musical writings informative.Roger Knox come back to us soon.


Thank you, Eramire156 -- I look forward to reading this book (the revised edition from 2016) when time allows. I think that people on this thread are coming from different backgrounds but all find that the music discussed is worth hearing.


----------



## rw181383

If I may add another composer, the Austrian Ludwig Thuille (mainly known for his Sextet), wrote one symphony and a piano concerto. Here's his Symphony in F major:






P.S. 
If you have time, listen to his Piano Quintet in E-Flat major!


----------



## rw181383

Ok, just one more...Thomas Schmidt-Kowalski (1949-2013). Completely out of this threads time frame, but I had to mention him. Not only is he already neglected, he felt that Romanticism in music transcended time. Have a listen to Symphony No. 3 (2000!!!):


----------



## Roger Knox

bestellen said:


> Too bad only the 4th symphony seems to be available online with good quality


Bestellen -- 4th Symphony by Raff: which orchestra, conductor and label?


----------



## Roger Knox

rw181383 said:


> If I may add another composer, the Austrian Ludwig Thuille (mainly known for his Sextet), wrote one symphony and a piano concerto. Here's his Symphony in F major
> 
> 
> 
> rw181383 -- Let's give lots of love to the first commentator on Ludwig Thuille or Emil von Reznicek (not me)!
Click to expand...


----------



## Eramire156

I can't decide if I like von Reznicek or not, currently listening to his dance symphony, his ironic symphony did make me smile, I won't dismiss him out hand and give another listen.

Readers of this thread might be interested in the following site: Unsung composers

http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php


----------



## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> Bestellen -- 4th Symphony by Raff: which orchestra, conductor and label?


I'm not sure what that means. A quick search on Youtube and it seems that all of the Tudor recordings of the Raff symphonies are there. Maybe Youtube isn't "good" quality. There is a better fourth, though. It's on Hyperion.


----------



## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Decades ago, there was very little known about Raff and hearing his music was almost impossible. Two symphonies, 3 and 5, the piano concerto and that was about it. Now it's incredible! All of the symphonies have been recorded at least twice, the 5th many times. A huge amount of chamber music available, the violin and cello concertos, and a healthy amount of piano music. And it's about time! He was hugely important and popular in Europe and the US up until around 1900. Even Mahler and Toscanini played him. The 5th is the most popular for good reason, but the 3rd sure has its charms. I just wish more orchestras would be adventurous enough to play some of it live!


Thank you mbhaub -- I'd never thought about this before, but in connection with Raff's excellent 5th (Lenore) symphony I read recently that he put a lot of thought into fitting the program and the symphony structure together. So having the first two movements depict Love's Happiness, lively then tender, sets up the doom-laden action of the gothic ballad's story of Lenore and Wilhelm for the 3rd and 4th movements. In the story of the 3rd movement march the lovers meet and part, the army approaches and leaves. In the 4th there are a terrifying to destruction, brief recollections of life, and a final apotheosis. The 3rd movement _march_ parallels the "human movement" (minuet, scherzo, waltz) of the conventional symphony); the 4th movement _gallop_, etc. parallels the "fast finale" of the conventional symphony. There are also parallels to opera. During my studies absolute music was king and program music scorned as naive; we weren't allowed to use our imaginations, that wasn't scholarly. The earlier scorn of historical musicologists is one reason Raff hasn't been played. Even in a long symphony, imagination helps you get into it!


----------



## mbhaub

The earlier scorn of musicologists certainly helped seal Raff's fate, but now it's something more insidious: the sheer laziness of conductors. They all have to have their say on the holy canon of the standard rep. Every new baton wielder has to put his (or her) stamp on Beethoven, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak et al. Too busy or lazy to explore the off beat repertoire. Well, at least there are some who are curious, but not enough!


----------



## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> The earlier scorn of musicologists certainly helped seal Raff's fate, but now it's something more insidious: the sheer laziness of conductors. They all have to have their say on the holy canon of the standard rep. Every new baton wielder has to put his (or her) stamp on Beethoven, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak et al. Too busy or lazy to explore the off beat repertoire. Well, at least there are some who are curious, but not enough!


Yes, I agree, it is the current standard rep orientation of conductors.


----------



## Roger Knox

rw181383 said:


> If I may add another composer, the Austrian Ludwig Thuille (mainly known for his Sextet), wrote one symphony and a piano concerto.


In his youth Ludwig Thuille (1861-1907) was a friend of Richard Strauss, who later premiered one of Thuille's work's. Composer also of 3 operas, chamber music, song cycles, and choral music, Thuille was a noted teacher at the Munich Hochschuele, where his composition students included Richard Wetz, Ernest Bloch, and Walter Braunfels.

I, for one, will be supportive of _any_ comments (almost!) on his symphony!


----------



## Roger Knox

Eramire156 said:


> Readers of this thread might be interested in the following site: Unsung composershttp://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php


Thank you for this link. From one of the posts on it I turned to _BBC Magazine_, September, 2017, p. 62 where among the CD's suggested for exploration after hearing Schubert's _Symphony No. 9_ (Great C Major) are:

Max Bruch: _Symphony No. 1_, London Symphony/Hickox, Chandos CHAN 9784
Joachim Raff: _Symphony No. 2_, Orchestre de la Suiss Romande/Jarvi, Chandos CHSA 5117
Robert Fuchs: _Symphony No. 1_, WDR Symphony Cologne/Steffens, CPO 7778302

Some serious recordings of the composers we're discussing!


----------



## Roger Knox

Eramire156 said:


> I can't decide if I like von Reznicek or not, currently listening to his dance symphony, his ironic symphony did make me smile, I won't dismiss him out hand and give another listen.


rw181383 & Eramire 156 -- Here are some speculations -- I could be wrong -- upon listening to Emil von Reznicek's _Dance Symphony_ (No. 5). As I mentioned in yesterday's post about Raff's _Symphony No. 5_, in a program symphony the inter-relation of the program and the symphony structure is fascinating -- much more than one simply matching the other. I like the work -- Reznicek is a natural composer and sophisticated orchestrator with a mordant/loopy sense of humour:

1. _Polonaise_ -- the first dance at a ball, and kind of macho, so its position in the symphony as first movement is fitting
2. _Czardas_ -- Hungarian dance that has a slow opening (_lassu_) and fast ending (_friss_) plus other tempo changes. The solo violinist is typically showy . . . In this movement the fast parts seem comically shortened -- because it's the slow movement of a symphony!
3. _Laendler_ -- rustic Austrian dance and precursor of the waltz; but this is a sophisticated waltz with zero rusticity IMO.
4. _Tarantella_ -- Well, Mendelsson's Italian Symphony ends with a tarantella, but this one is over-the-top. The middle section sounds like music from a _filme noir_ -- perhaps a parody?


----------



## Roger Knox

A composer born 1820-1850 and not yet mentioned is Josef Rheinberger (1839-1901), from Leichtenstein and active in Munich as composer and teacher of important students. Listening to his _A Florentine Symphonie, No. 2_, (1874) I am impressed by the opening movement's classical construction and the second movement's elegance. But the third and fourth movements are mediocre in melodic inspiration. The same is true throughout in the energetic_ Wallenstein_, _Symphonie no. 1_ (1866), which is sometimes labelled a symphonic poem.

Though not German or Austrian, Saint-Saens IMO is the one who writes energetic, "busy" music that also becomes inspired and, if I dare say so, Romantic. Just heard a classic recording of his _Organ Symphony no. 3_ by the National Orchestra of Paris/Jean Martinon with Marie-Claire Alain, organ, and it's a beautiful example of flexible pacing, phrasing, and balance that compares favourably with the various orchestras and conductors on Raff symphony recordings, for example.


----------



## Roger Knox

rw181383 said:


> If I may add another composer, the Austrian Ludwig Thuille (mainly known for his Sextet), wrote one symphony and a piano concerto. Here's his Symphony in F major:


Ludwig Thuille's Symphony in F major is a fine achievement by the 25-year-old composer whose melodic gift, natural elegance with form and appealing orchestration make it one I'll go back to. He seems to have gravitated to chamber music; one feels he's not swinging for the fences. I like the second movement's melody and the minuet's light touches, but there is power in the outer movements also. Some sense of neo-classicism . . . an excellent choice!


----------



## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Decades ago, there was very little known about Raff and hearing his music was almost impossible.
> I just wish more orchestras would be adventurous enough to play some of it live!


mthaub, I've now listened to Joachim Raff's Nos. 2, 4, and 11 as well. Recommend them all! In Symphony No. 2 (1867) it's the energy from the bright 6/8 time opening movement onward -- he never misses a step in this one. There is lots of variety in No. 4 (1871) from the wave dynamic in the opening theme to the movement's stormy development section -- followed by a deft scherzo -- an effective passacaglia as the 3rd movement -- to the lively dance feel in the finale. I guess being from Canada makes me partial to Symphony No. 11 "Der Winter," and yet it's that cute, breathy trio of flutes in the slow movement that gets me every time. Whatever could it mean?


----------



## Roger Knox

Orfeo said:


> *Felix Draeseke* comes to mind. I find his First Symphony highly rewarding (the middle movements are quite terrific) and its successors are fine (esp. the Third). He was highly regarded during his lifetime.
> 
> While I agree that *Schmidt* deserves a mentioning in regards to this topic (as does *Robert Fuchs*, by the way), *Karl Goldmark* is also worth a mention, at least in my estimation. The 1990s was sort of a renaissance in the promotion of his works (via recordings most of all), and the Queen of Sheba is getting its dues, if slowly and unevenly. But this otherwise fine composer has ways to go to get himself more firmly in the repertoire.


OK, coming down the home stretch and I'd like to ask for info and comments including recommended recordings on the above composers (except for Schmidt who we've covered.) Also for *Friedrich Gernsheim *and *Heinrich von Herzogenberg*. Let's get busy!


----------



## Roger Knox

Listening to the first two of Friedrich Gernsheim's four symphonies -- what a discovery!!! Beautiful works, can't wait to hear Nos. 3 & 4 . . .


----------



## Templeton

UK based readers may be interested to know that The London Philharmonic Orchestra will be performing the British premiere of Joseph Marx's sumptuous 'An Autumn Symphony/Eine Herbstsymphonie', at the Royal Festival Hall, London, on 29th November 2017. This is the full programme:

Respighi Autumn Poem
Chausson Poème
Marx An Autumn Symphony (UK premiere)

Vladimir Jurowski conductor
Julia Fischer violin
London Philharmonic Orchestra 

Hopefully it will justify the four hour plus journey from the North. Really looking forward to it.


----------



## Templeton

rw181383 said:


> Ok, just one more...Thomas Schmidt-Kowalski (1949-2013). Completely out of this threads time frame, but I had to mention him. Not only is he already neglected, he felt that Romanticism in music transcended time. Have a listen to Symphony No. 3 (2000!!!):


Thanks for this suggestion. I have just started listening to his works and am already falling in love with them.


----------



## rw181383

Templeton said:


> Thanks for this suggestion. I have just started listening to his works and am already falling in love with them.


You're welcome!!


----------



## KJ von NNJ

I love the Franz Schmidt symphonies. I purchased the Jarvi set about 15 years ago from MHS. There is a progression in compositional form from one to the next. Great stuff.
It is good to see Raff getting some attention. I enjoy several of his works.


----------



## Roger Knox

KJ von NNJ said:


> I love the Franz Schmidt symphonies. I purchased the Jarvi set about 15 years ago from MHS. There is a progression in compositional form from one to the next. Great stuff.
> It is good to see Raff getting some attention. I enjoy several of his works.


Great to hear from you! All the Schmidt symphonies are wonderful. So far I have listened to Raff's Nos. 1-6 and 11, with Nos. 7-10 on my list; the majority so far are excellent works.

Having listened to all four of Friedrich Gernsheim's symphonies I plan to buy the set, because I feel he's a genuine "natural" composer of symphonic music whose music can flow like honey, stir up a storm, pause for a thought, and so on. There is so much that he does well and that brings me to a state of bliss. To think that despite my 50-years+ serious involvement in classical music I had never heard of him . . . well, at least I'm making up for lost time!


----------



## Nocture In Blue

Art Rock said:


> Not yet mentioned, but worth exploring is Hans Pfitzner, especially his orchestral songs (CPO CD).


I love much of Pfitzners works. I often listen to _Palestrina_ and the charming C major Symphony.


----------



## KJ von NNJ

Roger Knox said:


> Great to hear from you! All the Schmidt symphonies are wonderful. So far I have listened to Raff's Nos. 1-6 and 11, with Nos. 7-10 on my list; the majority so far are excellent works.
> 
> Having listened to all four of Friedrich Gernsheim's symphonies I plan to buy the set, because I feel he's a genuine "natural" composer of symphonic music whose music can flow like honey, stir up a storm, pause for a thought, and so on. There is so much that he does well and that brings me to a state of bliss. To think that despite my 50-years+ serious involvement in classical music I had never heard of him . . . well, at least I'm making up for lost time!


Thanks for replying! Raff 7 thru 10 are all good ones. 8, 9, and 10 are part of his 'Seasons' symphony cycle which ended with 11 (Winter). The CPO recording of 8 thru 11 is a nice one-stop way to get them. Werner Andreas Albert and the Philharmonia Hungarica perform admirably. The Stadlmair/Bamberg recordings on Tudor are arguably better. The box set is a bit pricey and getting each individual recording is too, so the CPO twofer is a good way to go. I have the Tudor 3 and 5 and like them very much. For Symphony 7 the CPO/Albert recording is good. It's Raff's 'Alpen' symphony. A bit over-long in my opinion but it still has some good tunes to offer. It's very much worth hearing if you have a Raff bug! I love 8, 9 and 10 and put them right up there with his best.
I have not heard Gernsheim's symphonies but your description has gotten me immediately interested. I must investigate them. Thank you!


----------



## Roger Knox

KJ von NNJ said:


> For Symphony 7 the CPO/Albert recording is good. It's Raff's 'Alpen' symphony. A bit over-long in my opinion but it still has some good tunes to offer.
> I have not heard Gernsheim's symphonies but your description has gotten me immediately interested. I must investigate them. Thank you!


To my knowledge there are two options for the Gernsheim symphonies:

(1) Arte Nova complete set of the four symphonies of Friedrich Gernsheim (1839-1916), with Siegfried Köhler conducting the Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz. 
(2) CPO has the four symphonies on two different discs (one with Nos. 1 & 3, the other with Nos. 2 & 4), with Hermann Baumer conducting the Mainz PSO.

I listened to Raff 7 this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it as I do most things Alpine (grew up in Vancouver, British Columbia).


----------



## KJ von NNJ

Roger Knox said:


> To my knowledge there are two options for the Gernsheim symphonies:
> 
> (1) Arte Nova complete set of the four symphonies of Friedrich Gernsheim (1839-1916), with Siegfried Köhler conducting the Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz.
> (2) CPO has the four symphonies on two different discs (one with Nos. 1 & 3, the other with Nos. 2 & 4), with Hermann Baumer conducting the Mainz PSO.
> 
> I listened to Raff 7 this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it as I do most things Alpine (grew up in Vancouver, British Columbia).


I am happy that you enjoyed Raff 7. If the version you heard was the CPO, the Jubel (Jubilee) Overture is also included. It's twice as long as Carl Maria von Weber's overture of the same name. I'm a big fan of The Alpine Symphony by Richard Strauss and plenty of other works that suggest mountains or hills! I live among the hills in northern New Jersey. Vancouver BC is wonderfully mountainous and scenic. A different level really! Toronto is beautiful as well. Glenn Gould at Lake Simcoe, Ontario from the DVD Off the Record pops into my mind. A place I would like to visit sometime.

Last night, I sampled the two Gernsheim cycles that you mentioned. The Arte Nova is the bargain of course. CPO usually has great sonics so it may be worth the extra money. May I ask which cycle you prefer? 
Well, now I want to listen to Raff 7! It's been a while. Sometimes when we listen, we expect a bit too much. Especially if one is using Beethoven, Brahms or Mahler as a yardstick.


----------



## Roger Knox

KJ von NNJ said:


> Last night, I sampled the two Gernsheim cycles that you mentioned. The Arte Nova is the bargain of course. CPO usually has great sonics so it may be worth the extra money. May I ask which cycle you prefer?


The CPO recordings are pricey. What I like about them is that the performances conducted by Hermann Baumer are more interpretive and Romantic, with ritards, pauses. In No. 1 he repeats the exposition; generally tempi are slower than on the Arte Nova cycle conducted by Siegfried Kohler. The latter has a clean, straight-ahead and more Classical approach that is less to my taste, but still of good quality. It's like choosing what kinds of performances of the Brahms or Schumann Symphonies you prefer.

P.S. Glenn Gould was what we'd call an "animal rights advocate," and in his motorboat he would roar by people out fishing on the lake to scare the fish away!


----------



## KJ von NNJ

Thanks very much for explaining the difference between the two sets of Gernsheim symphonies. By your description, I have to say that the CPO releases interest me.
I listened to Weingartner's 3rd symphony today. What an adagio! It is the CPO release with Marko Letonja conducting the Basel Symphony Orchestra. I've had it for years and once in a while give it a listen. I also have the CPO 2nd Symphony. I like that disc very much. Certain parts of the opening tone poem reminds me of Schubert's unfinished. Not a bad thing!
I'm quite a big Gould fan. Recordings, books and videos......I have a few. I recently got around to reading "Wondrous Strange". I put it off for a long time because I already had two bios about Gould plus the GG Reader. The fish story is a funny one. I can picture him doing something like that!


----------



## Roger Knox

*Von Herzogenberg and Gernsheim*

My first post on TalkClassical was about a new recording of Franz Schmidt's _Second Symphony_. There a couple of Senior Members kindly suggested and supported this thread. On my now deleted Schmidt post, *Friedrich Gernsheim* and *Heinrich von Herzogenberg* were proposed by others. Now I've listened to the glorious Gernsheim (see above), and to _Symphonies 1 and 2_ by Herzogenberg:

_Symphony No. 1_: Radiosymphonie NDR/Frank Beerman
_Symphony No. 2_: Sinfonieorchester St. Gallen/Heinrich Nanasi

Both composers were regular correspondents with Brahms; I think the Leipzig-based von Herzogenberg was the one most influenced by him. His _First Symphony in C-_ has multiple resemblances to Brahms No. 1 including the square-cut theme of the Finale. Compared with his First, I prefer von Herzogenberg's _Second Symphony in B-flat Major_, especially the first two movements because they move well and have very satisfying musical ideas. Definitely recommend both symphonies by von Herzogenberg, distinguished by excellent craftsmanship and orchestration. But my heart is more with Gernsheim.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Seasons of Raff*

J.J. Raff's four-season cycle consisting of _Symphonies Nos. 8-11_ is a great success IMO and I can certainly understand how some may value these works more than his better-known _Symphonies No. 3 & No. 5_. I'm not going through all these works in detail here, but the acclaim they have received on TalkClassical and elsewhere is well-deserved!

Here are a few observations: the shorter length of these symphonies compared to his earlier ones is in his favour; at this stage (1876-78) he is firmly separated from Liszt and the Wagnerian camp; he is confident in the last phase of his own style though willing to revise No. 10; optimism, liveliness, colour, feeling, and a folksy charm comparable to Dvorak's are apparent; the opening movement of No. 9, A Hot Day, is extraordinary; although they are not integrated musically as a four-symphony cycle, the composer's accomplishment should always be recognized; they are deserving of live performance by significant orchestras.:cheers:


----------



## Roger Knox

Part way through listening to the three symphonies of *Carl Reinecke* (1824-1910) I learned that he was actually born in Denmark, in Altona which was part of Denmark at the time, though annexed by Germany in 1864. An outstanding musician and teacher and prolific composer, the greater part of his career was in fact spent in Germany. He doesn't seem late Romantic to me, more early or mid-Romantic. His symphonies are very good indeed. Maybe can leave him for Denmark, though.


----------



## Roger Knox

Of Felix Draeseke, Karl Goldmark, and Robert Fuchs it is Goldmark -- specifically the _Rustic Wedding Symphony_-- that I am enjoying the most so far. In this work, contrasting dances that are grouped well and have a cumulative effect. If there are any other fans of any of these composers I'd like to hear from you!

These are the last composers on the original list of the group born 1820-1850. :trp:


----------



## Roger Knox

*Neglected late Romantic German & Austrian orchestral composers born 1820-1850*

Not quite finished with my commentaries. At this point in my listening I can say that beyond the great and well-recognized masters *Anton Bruckner* (b. 1824) and *Johannes Brahms* (b. 1833), there are at least seven significant late Romantic German & Austrian orchestral composers born 1820-1850 who are neglected to some degree.

To me the four best are: *Joachim Raff* (b. 1822), *Karl Goldmark* (b. 1830), *Max Bruch* (b. 1838), and *Friedrich Gernsheim* (b. 1839). They are followed by: *Felix Draeseke* (b. 1835), *Heinrich von Herzogenberg* (b. 1843), and *Robert Fuchs* (b. 1847). To the first four's music I usually say "Yes!;" to the last three, "Yes, but . . . "

Overall, on this thread I approached the late Romantics "backwards" in three groups: born 1875-1900; 1851-1874; 1820-1850. In all groups I've listened to quite a bit of music by other composers, yet think addressing neglect is most urgent with the composers selected, "the best of the inadequately recognized."


----------



## Roger Knox

In this thread, I've assumed that the four masters among German and Austrian late Romantic composers of orchestral music are *Bruckner, Brahms, Mahler* and *Strauss*. Should we add any others? To me the other possibility for "master" is *Reger*. While I've become acquainted with his orchestral music, my knowledge overall of Reger's music is too limited right now to decide if he's a master. May I request comments on this? . . .

This leads to the issues of musical "difficulty" in Reger, and of the place of "modern" composers, both noted in Der Titan's excellent August 25 post. After *Reger *(b. 1873), there follow at least eight important German or Austrian composers born within the time period of this thread: *Schoenberg *(b. 1874), *Webern *(b. 1883), *Berg *(b. 1885), *Wellesz *(b. 1885), *Hindemith *(b. 1895), *Orff *(b. 1898), *Weill *(b. 1900), and *Krenek *(b. 1900). I've left them out because they're clearly more modern than late Romantic. Our judgement of who is a "master" of orchestral composition will be affected by our opinions about Romantic and modern music.

A bit of self-disclosure: I come to this post from a background of being very involved in modern music through composing and teaching music theory, and with a lot of experience with Romantic music playing piano and double bass. Although there are elements of transition, the break between Romantic and modern music was real and is with us still in modified ways. Though I like both, I don't have a problem with people who prefer or only listen to one or the other. My concern is for neglected composers to be heard, now that (miraculously in some cases) their music is available to us; it is not to "replace" modern music with more Romantic music, or vice-versa. Comments? . . .


----------



## Roger Knox

[duplicate please delete]


----------



## Roger Knox

Orfeo said:


> *Felix Draeseke* comes to mind. I find his First Symphony highly rewarding (the middle movements are quite terrific) and its successors are fine (esp. the Third). He was highly regarded during his lifetime.


In my opinion, across all his symphonies *Felix Draeseke *(1835-1913) breaks into marches, trumpet fanfares and other militaristic gestures too frequently, making them less effective than they'd be if he'd "kept his powder dry" more often. On the positive side: in the _First Symphony _(1872) I like the composer's energy and agree about the middle movements; the scherzo's interplay between instrument groups is intriguing and the Adagio is beautiful. In the _Second Symphony_(1876), the opening movement is an advance over that of the First in the way that the development section builds; the Trio of the scherzo movement is particularly attractive; the fugue in the last movement shows Draeseke's strength in counterpoint, which continued to increase over his career. The _Third Symphony_ (1885) lives up to its _Symphonia tragica_ name, especially in the funereal slow movement. Its scherzo is especially good: melodically and harmonically adventurous, with enlivening cross-rhythms and bars in irregular metres.


----------



## Roger Knox

Orfeo said:


> *Karl Goldmark* is also worth a mention, at least in my estimation. The 1990s was sort of a renaissance in the promotion of his works (via recordings most of all), and the Queen of Sheba is getting its dues, if slowly and unevenly. But this otherwise fine composer has ways to go to get himself more firmly in the repertoire.


I'm a fan of *Karl Goldmark *(1830-1915) who was once very popular and as you say has been revived through recordings; he's promoted and played regularly in his birth country Hungary now. (Austria claims him too because he spent most of his career in Vienna!). The noted "Rustic Wedding" _Symphony No. 1_ (1876) is a charming series of dance movements and a lot of fun. I particularly like all four movements of his lesser-known _Symphony No. 2_ (1887). For example the Andante opens lyrically with archaic and evocative modal harmony; then there is a passage like a Hebrew prayer and the movement continues into a gently-rocking passage suggesting the Austrian _laendler_ (folk predecessor of the waltz). Beautiful! I think the best of Goldmark's concert overtures are the attractive _Sakuntala _(1865, his breakthrough success), _Penthesilea _(1876), and _Der gefesselte Prometheus_ (Prometheus Bound, 1889) -- others are worth hearing too.


----------



## Roger Knox

Orfeo said:


> . . . Schmidt deserves a mentioning in regards to this topic (as does *Robert Fuchs*, by the way) . . .


The music of *Robert Fuchs* (1847-1927) is seldom heard, but I find quite a bit to admire in his three symphonies. With Fuchs and von Herzogenberg, commentators usually note the influence of Brahms who was a friend of both -- but surely that shouldn't disqualify them from being performed! (By contrast Draeseke was in his early years a proponent of Wagner.) In my view Fuchs's _Symphony No. 1_, op. 37 is the best of the three, from the excellent opening movement onwards. _Symphony No. 2_, op. 45 illustrates a problem with Fuchs, which is his lack of consistency. The opening movement is poor and has no ideas, but things get much better after that. In the _Symphony No. 3_, op. 79 the second movement is an especially engaging theme and variations, a form in which Fuchs (like Brahms) excelled. Teaching composition at the Vienna Conservatory, Fuchs had an extraordinary series of A-list students -- that fascinates me!


----------



## Roger Knox

*Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers and works of the late romantic era -- a milestone!!!*

Having pushed ahead to complete this stage of listening with Robert Fuchs, I'm happy and relieved we have come this far since the thread began August 15, 2017! Thank you again to all TalkClassical contributors, who have made this thread possible and helped it along. With to date 121 replies/likes and 3,757 views (a lot by me to be sure!), we have shown that there is a lot of interest in neglected composers from the particular era and area! Concerning further components of TalkClassical, I notice several of the same names in the Classical Music Discussion Polls on the new Unheralded Composers contests. There are Composer Guestbooks on some composers discussed here; others are yet to be added.

I will continue posting, but no longer in a directed or directing manner. Please bring news and thoughts on new recordings. We could expand now to include concertos and orchestral songs, or that topic could be another thread. Or there may be other directions to take. For Americans, best wishes for a happy Thanksgiving holiday! Here in Canada I'll be watching our annual Grey Cup football championship on Sunday. Auf Wiedersehen, let's meet again soon!


----------



## Templeton

Joseph Marx's gorgeous and very rarely performed 'An Autumn Symphony/Eine Herbstsymphonie' received its UK premiere last night, ninety-five years after it was first performed in Vienna. Better late than never. Below is my review from this site, as well as two more professional ones:

http://www.talkclassical.com/5564-latest-concerts-75.html#post1355183

https://bachtrack.com/review-marx-autumn-jurowski-fischer-london-philharmonic-november-2017

https://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/arts/lpojurowski-review-the-russian-conductor-breathes-life-into-a-forgotten-score-a3705856.html

It was a real privilege to be present on such a momentous occasion.


----------



## Roger Knox

I would have loved to have been there at the Royal Festival Hall! Good to see your reviews and the others. The reviews in the mainstream dailies are short and don't really say very much, but I think Marx's instrumental music deserves more in-depth consideration. I'm going back to listen again.


----------



## Templeton

Roger Knox said:


> I would have loved to have been there at the Royal Festival Hall! Good to see your reviews and the others. The reviews in the mainstream dailies are short and don't really say very much, but I think Marx's instrumental music deserves more in-depth consideration. I'm going back to listen again.


Thanks Roger. Here are some other reviews that have been issued subsequently. You may have to register, in order to access the full texts but this is free and the sites are genuine:

https://www.ft.com/content/390de03e-d5cc-11e7-8c9a-d9c0a5c8d5c9

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/concert-review-lpo-jurowski-at-the-royal-festival-hall-rctxnnwgn

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/nov/30/lpo-jurowski-review-marx-autumn-symphony-london-philharmonic

There is a really terrific review on another classical music forum site but unfortunately I believe that it is against this forum's rules to post the link, so apologies.


----------



## cougarjuno

I don't know if he's been mentioned but Ernst Krenek is definitely another Austrian composer whose compositions are neglected. His music is challenging but there are many moments of beauty also - part Schoenberg, part Mahler. There is a huge catalog of music waiting to be discovered. His Symphony No. 2 is monumental, Mahlerian in scope. His chamber music, particularly the string quartets are worth rediscovering also. Perhaps the jazz-inspired opera Jonny Spielt Auf is what people know him for but I don't know if there has been a recent staging of this work but if audiences like Weill they certainly would enjoy this opera.


----------



## DeepR

God I love how Von Hausegger's Nature Symphony comes to an end. Utterly fantastic.


----------



## Eramire156

On listening to *Fuchs* first, I hear not only Brahms, but hints of Berlioz. I look forward to listening his other two symphonies.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Close of Autumn Symphony*



Templeton said:


> Thanks Roger. Here are some other reviews . . .


Thanks, Templeton, for the reviews -- will check them out. In the meantime, I would like to mention to readers that the _Autumn Symphony_ by Joseph Marx really _is _a beautiful symphony in four movements. It is complex. The texture is full and doesn't change a lot. One needs to make an effort to focus on the melody, but that is the key to following the form of the work. The harmony is lush and adventurous. The orchestration is opulent and loaded with novelties. A clearer place to start is the last five minutes of the last movement, "Autumn Poem." It is a gorgeous R. Straussian (_Rosenkavalier_) type of close that I've listened to over and over with pleasure.


----------



## Roger Knox

Templeton said:


> There is a really terrific review on another classical music forum site but unfortunately I believe that it is against this forum's rules to post the link, so apologies.


Frankly, Templeton, I found your review more informative and interesting than the others. From my reading, there are two versions of the _Herbstsymphonie_, the original (80 minutes?) and the 55-minute version with cuts made by Joseph Marx to help get more performances. The latter version is used on the ASO/Botstein recording. I don't know for sure which version you heard but one reviewer said it timed at 80 minutes. Regarding my comment #129 about the close of the finale, I'll just say again that one needs to take each movement separately, section by section, before judging the whole. For example, before the close the finale is a set of dances with an interlude or two, each forming a section. The negative reviewers skip over all of the above and just say the work is too long, etc.; That was my first impression -- a big long sonic bath -- but now I'd say in the finale one needs to consider each dance, how they do or don't fit together, and what the composer seems to be projecting overall -- and do the same with the previous three movements, before publishing any criticism.


----------



## Templeton

Roger Knox said:


> Frankly, Templeton, I found your review more informative and interesting than the others. From my reading, there are two versions of the _Herbstsymphonie_, the original (80 minutes?) and the 55-minute version with cuts made by Joseph Marx to help get more performances. The latter version is used on the ASO/Botstein recording. I don't know for sure which version you heard but one reviewer said it timed at 80 minutes. Regarding my comment #129 about the close of the finale, I'll just say again that one needs to take each movement separately, section by section, before judging the whole. For example, before the close the finale is a set of dances with an interlude or two, each forming a section. The negative reviewers skip over all of the above and just say the work is too long, etc.; That was my first impression -- a big long sonic bath -- but now I'd say in the finale one needs to consider each dance, how they do or don't fit together, and what the composer seems to be projecting overall -- and do the same with the previous three movements, before publishing any criticism.


Thank you, Roger, for your kind words, although I would still assert that most/all of the other reviews provide far more educated and informed insights into both the concert and the piece.

You brought to light some very interesting points. I had not realised that Marx produced two versions of this symphony, which would explain the differences between the sole recording and the LPO performance, although I am sure that the latter was still only just over an hour rather than the eighty minutes, suggested by one of the newspaper reviews. You make another really good point, in suggesting that the listener takes each movement individually and I would add to this that 'An Autumn Symphony' is one of those compositions that benefits from repeated listening. As you correctly note, an initial impression can be of a 'big long sonic bath', which does not do the work any kind of justice. I would be interested to know just how much prior knowledge any of the more negative reviewers had of this piece, prior to their reviewing the concert and whether further listening may have improved their perspectives.

Thank you again for this and for all of the fascinating information that you are bringing to this thread and the forum overall. All the best.


----------



## Roger Knox

cougarjuno said:


> I don't know if he's been mentioned but Ernst Krenek is definitely another Austrian composer whose compositions are neglected. QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks for your advocacy of Krenek! I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a separate thread on neglected "modern" or "modernist" music by composers like those named in post #117, rather than include them with their late romantic contemporaries on this thread. This is an important distinction. Agree with all your points otherwise.


----------



## Roger Knox

Templeton;1357610 You make another really good point said:


> A very rough outline of _Eine Herbstsymphonie_, 4th movement, Autumn poem (1921) -- timings refer to American Symph. Orch./Leon Botstein recording:
> 
> A. DANCE SECTION
> Dance 1 (36:50-38:34): Gigue in 6/8 time, minimalist effect in higher sounds
> Dance 2 (38:35-40:41): Oom-pah bass, 4/4 time
> Dance 3 (40:42-43:46): Gigue in 6/8 time returns with tune in middle strings
> Dance 4 (43:46-45:19): Fast, in mixed 5/8 and 4/8 metres, uses gypsy scale
> 
> B: "SONG SECTION"
> SONG AREA 1 (45:20-48:27): Transitions into 4/4 time (adagio) with the big opening tune and Wagnerian style, & cuckoo song heralds . . .
> SONG AREA 2 (48:28-54:58) Oboe and high strings, Romantic adagio continues, builds to climax . . .
> CODA (54:59-58:52) The sublime Richard Straussian ending referred to in an earlier post
> 
> My comment regarding 2 versions of _Eine Herbstsymphonie_: I'm not sure now. The 4th movement discussed here is from 1921. Marx revised it (mainly the earlier part) in 1946, and published it separately as _Feste Im Herbst_ or Autumn Revelries. But the length is similar. Re different lengths of the symphony overall we need to find out more about what the Leon Botstein/ASO cuts were.


----------



## Eramire156

Some of the program notes for concerts by the American symphony orchestra can be found at their website.Here is the link for the Marx's symphony

http://americansymphony.org/eine-herbstsymphonie-autumn-symphony-1921/


----------



## Lenny

I've been lately returning to Max Bruch. Not a single weak work recorded! Monumental symphonies, very good string quartets and concertos.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Lenny said:


> I've been lately returning to Max Bruch. Not a single weak work recorded! Monumental symphonies, very good string quartets and concertos.


I agree. In addition, his _concertante_ works (besides the concertos) are so gorgeous. The most impressive ones (for me) are _In memoriam_, Romanza for viola and orchestra op. 85, Scottish Fantasy and Konzertstück for violin and orchestra op. 84. His other chamber music is worthy too: the Piano quintet, the two String quintets and the String octet.


----------



## Roger Knox

Re _Eine Herbstssymphonie_: My post #133 above is very rough and inadequate. But the idea of listening to this work section by section remains the key to enjoying it! There is a concise layman's description of the work (under "Autumn Symphony") by scholar Berkant Haydin at the Joseph Marx Society web site, which I would recommend for anyone. (For example, it tells us that the area I identified as "dance section" is in fact the harvest festival scene, which includes dances and other music.) There is also more analytical German-language information accessible.


----------



## Roger Knox

Lenny and MusicSybarite, I agree with your high rating of Bruch. Right now, I'm enjoying the _Scottish Fantasy_ played by Julia Fischer. 
I have a feeling that in general the types "symphony" and the "concerto" differ fundamentally, but am not sure why.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Friedrich Gernsheim's tone poem*

So pleased to have just discovered Friedrich Gernsheim's late tone poem _Zu einem Drama_ in C Minor, Op. 81 (1910). Known for his symphonies, here Gernsheim seems very comfortable with the more freely-structured tone poem genre. Showing stylistic growth and dramatic gifts, here he moves beyond the "Schumann-Brahms epigone" status unfairly assigned to him. Cutting and varying phrases, effectively employing dynamic and textural changes, his mastery shows, and the last three of the work's 18 minutes are stunning!

Suffice to say Klaus Arp and the SWR Radiofunkorchester Kaiserslautern are inspired and passionate.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> So pleased to have just discovered Friedrich Gernsheim's late tone poem _Zu einem Drama_ in C Minor, Op. 81 (1910). Known for his symphonies, here Gernsheim seems very comfortable with the more freely-structured tone poem genre. Showing stylistic growth and dramatic gifts, here he moves beyond the "Schumann-Brahms epigone" status unfairly assigned to him. Cutting and varying phrases, effectively employing dynamic and textural changes, his mastery shows, and the last three of the work's 18 minutes are stunning!
> 
> Suffice to say Klaus Arp and the SWR Radiofunkorchester Kaiserslautern are inspired and passionate.


Interesting. I know the 4 symphonies and all of them are quite appealing. Gernsheim was a consistent composer, and his chamber music calls me. I'm afraid the complete string quartets are not fully recorded, or at least I don't have them complete. Fortunately I do have that tone poem, too. I'll give it a try when I can.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Friends of Brahms*

Music Sybarite, I hope you enjoy the tone poem by Gernsheim!

In reading and listening related to the earlier composers on this thread, frequently one comes across "friends of Brahms." In addition to Gernsheim, the German-Austrian list includes Reinecke, Goldmark (for awhile), Clara Schumann, Herzogenberg, Ignaz Bruell, and Fuchs -- plus there were Dvorak and others -- despite Brahms's reputation for cutting criticism. Knowledge of these friendships has changed my notion of Brahms as a lonely musical conservative, the last of a great line, being held up by critic Edouard Hanslick and others who opposed Wagner. (Actually Brahms seems to have liked Wagner's music, though not that of Bruckner and other Wagner-followers.) By contrast, it is interesting that one comes across followers, not "friends of Wagner." There were also ex-followers; Liszt, Raff, von Bulow, and Draeseke eventually broke away from his influence.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Gernsheim's _Zu einem Drama_ has left me impressed! It really sounds dramatic, powerful, brilliant. I can hear some influences of Brahms and a little bit of Wagner. Overall, it's an excellent piece.


----------



## Lenny

Roger Knox said:


> *Friends of Brahms*
> 
> Music Sybarite, I hope you enjoy the tone poem by Gernsheim!
> 
> In reading and listening related to the earlier composers on this thread, frequently one comes across "friends of Brahms." In addition to Gernsheim, the German-Austrian list includes Reinecke, Goldmark (for awhile), Clara Schumann, Herzogenberg, Ignaz Bruell, and Fuchs -- plus there were Dvorak and others -- despite Brahms's reputation for cutting criticism. Knowledge of these friendships has changed my notion of Brahms as a lonely musical conservative, the last of a great line, being held up by critic Edouard Hanslick and others who opposed Wagner. (Actually Brahms seems to have liked Wagner's music, though not that of Bruckner and other Wagner-followers.) By contrast, it is interesting that one comes across followers, not "friends of Wagner." There were also ex-followers; Liszt, Raff, von Bulow, and Draeseke eventually broke away from his influence.


I just wish we could include Erno Dohanyi here... I'm afraid he's not german enough 

But he's the true successor of Brahms. I can never get enough of his majestic 1st symphony!


----------



## LP collector

I cannot understand the neglect of *Karl Amadeus Hartmann* an anti-Nazi so not due to any sympathies with that regime. A prolific composer although I only know his music through his eight symphonies of which all are wonderful - the 6th has to be heard to be believed - and yet no two are alike.


----------



## cougarjuno

Of the several composers mentioned here, I enjoy Herzogenberg's music the most. Occasionally Fuchs' music is played on QXR here in NYC and it didn't appeal to me. I should listen to more Gernsheim but his symphonies didn't impress me -- Herzogenberg's symphonies and chamber music did. What a shame he died relatively young at 57.


----------



## Roger Knox

Lenny said:


> I just wish we could include Erno Dohanyi here... I'm afraid he's not german enough
> 
> But he's the true successor of Brahms. I can never get enough of his majestic 1st symphony!


Lenny,

Thanks for your recommendation -- I'd like to know more of Dohnanyi, from you and others.

Having been a teacher and lecturer, I've tended to limit the topic to lighten the load . . . But now I'm over with stating which music and composers should or should not be on here!


----------



## Roger Knox

cougarjuno said:


> Of the several composers mentioned here, I enjoy Herzogenberg's music the most. Occasionally Fuchs' music is played on QXR here in NYC and it didn't appeal to me. I should listen to more Gernsheim but his symphonies didn't impress me -- Herzogenberg's symphonies and chamber music did. What a shame he died relatively young at 57.


I admire Herzogenberg's symphonies, haven't reached his chamber music yet. His temperament is different from Gernsheim's, less ingratiating perhaps. Brahms and Herzongenberg corresponded extensively.


----------



## Roger Knox

LP collector said:


> I cannot understand the neglect of *Karl Amadeus Hartmann* an anti-Nazi so not due to any sympathies with that regime. A prolific composer although I only know his music through his eight symphonies of which all are wonderful - the 6th has to be heard to be believed - and yet no two are alike.


Certainly Hartmann is a major modernist symphonic composer, as is Ernst Krenek who was recommended in an earlier post. Personally I'm one of those Janus-faced creatures who actually likes both late-Romantic and modernist orchestral music, though in different ways.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Best Neglected Names*

The title of this message can be read in two ways . . .

We would be remiss if before the end of 2017 we failed to acknowledge the Best Names of Neglected Composers, or if you like, the Names of Composers Best Neglected:

*Baron Clemens von und zu Franckenstein (1875 - 1942)

Fidelio Friedrich Finke (1891-1968)*


----------



## Roger Knox

Art Rock said:


> Not yet mentioned, but worth exploring is Hans Pfitzner, especially his orchestral songs (CPO CD).


So far I've listened on YouTube to Mark and In Danzig sung by Fischer-Dieskau, and also to Lethe. Das dunkel Reich is on my list, and will check out the CPO CD.

Orchestral song from Wagner to Korngold is one of the glories of late German and Austrian Romanticism. But arias and duets from operas or oratorios are heard much more frequently in concert than are orchestral songs.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Hugo Wolf's Penthesilea*

After listening to the early symphonic poem _Penthesilea_ (1883-85) by Hugo Wolf (1860-1903) I have a much better idea of who he was, and recommend listening to the piece. It shows a composer whose harmony, orchestration, and mood-setting (e.g. Penthesilea's Dream) are all convincing and up-to-date for his time. (All these factors of course are important in his uniquely beautiful lieder, including the 20 for which he prepared exquisite orchestral versions.) I prefer the slower sections of this work, finding the excellent energy of the more rousing passages is not matched by interesting melody and development.

The old recordings on YouTube by the Vienna Philharmonic/Gerdes and the Staatskapelle Berlin/Suitner do not cut it in my view. The more recent Paris Orchestra/Barenboim and Orchestre de la Suisse Romande/Horst Stein seem better from the taster tracks -- maybe there should be a new version considering how crucial this composer is. Incidentally there are also symphonic works by Goldmark, Draeseke, and Othmar Schoeck (German Swiss) based on the _Pentheselia _legend.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Incidentally there are also symphonic works by Goldmark, Draeseke, and Othmar Schoeck (German Swiss) based on the _Pentheselia _legend.


Correction: the Othmar Schoeck work is an opera.


----------



## LastCall

Fanny Mendelssohn, composer chamber music and vocal works, and perhaps Johann Strauss I, composer of the Radedzky March, were both greatly overshadowed by far more famous family members. Of course, during the Romantic period, men particularly ignored contributions of women, so Fanny really hadn't a chance.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Another neglected German-Austrian composer, whose Symphony in A major I found rather interesting: Leopold Damrosch (1832-1885). The symphony is possibly very traditional, nothing new, but it was rewarding enough.

In addition, I have other names worthy of investigating:

*From Germany*
-Woldemar Bargiel (1828-1897)
-Albert Dietrich (1829-1908)
-Robert Radecke (1830-1911)
-Philipp Scharwenka (1847-1917)
-Felix Woyrsch (1860-1944)
-Wilhelm Berger (1861-1911)
-Emil von Sauer (1862-1942)
-Georg Schumann (1866-1952)
-Ewald Strässer (1867-1933)
-Hermann Bischoff (1868-1936)
-Paul Graener (1872-1944)

*From Austria*
-Karl Weigl (1881-1949)
-Egon Wellesz (1885-1974)
-Ernst Toch (1887-1964)
-Marcel Tyberg (1893-1944)


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> *From Austria*
> -Karl Weigl (1881-1949)
> -Egon Wellesz (1885-1974)
> -Ernst Toch (1887-1964)
> -Marcel Tyberg (1893-1944)


MusicSybarite, thanks for your suggestions. Like many others I find Marcel Tyberg's _Third Symphony_ (1943) to be his best, with four excellent movements. To me the first movement has at times a "vocal" quality conveying the composer's individuality -- he's not just a "sub-Bruckner imitator." The finale builds effectively to an exciting close! The _Second Symphony_ (1927) also has some very fine passages, though I think the Scherzo is too repetitive.

JoAnne Falletta is an outstanding conductor who has made a number of excellent recordings including the Tyberg works with the Buffalo Symphony on Naxos. Her championship of Tyberg's music has made it possible for us to hear these compositions, which survived his death at Auschwitz and miraculously re-surfaced years later.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> MusicSybarite, thanks for your suggestions. Like many others I find Marcel Tyberg's _Third Symphony_ (1943) to be his best, with four excellent movements. To me the first movement has at times a "vocal" quality conveying the composer's individuality -- he's not just a "sub-Bruckner imitator." The finale builds effectively to an exciting close! The _Second Symphony_ (1927) also has some very fine passages, though I think the Scherzo is too repetitive.
> 
> JoAnne Falletta is an outstanding conductor who has made a number of excellent recordings including the Tyberg works with the Buffalo Symphony on Naxos. Her championship of Tyberg's music has made it possible for us to hear these compositions, which survived his death at Auschwitz and miraculously re-surfaced years later.


In addition, the Piano trio in F major is another compelling work. I like it much. In some passages it reminds me of the Brahms's Piano quintet (which I love too).


----------



## Lenny

Always nice to check this thread about my favourite "genre". Today I learned about Marcel Tyberg.

Thanks MusicSybarite and Roger!


----------



## Roger Knox

Lenny said:


> Always nice to check this thread about my favourite "genre". Today I learned about Marcel Tyberg.
> Thanks MusicSybarite and Roger!


Thanks for your comments Lenny! Just realized that to my embarrassment Rudi Stephan (1887-1915) has been left out of this thread. Not only does the composer of _Musik fuer Orchestra in einem Satz_ and _Musik fuer Orchestra_ capture moods such as "danger" wonderfully, but his sense of harmony, melody and growth are just spot on. His work and life completely and irrefutably destroy once and for all the idea of post-romantic music as "decadent," "languorous," etc.; his music crackles with life but he died in WW1 action in 1915. YouTube titles have screwed up the distinction between the above two works, and if anyone can help out with this confusion please post!

I think this has been raised before somewhere, but apparently there is also Marcel Tyberg's _Symphony No. 1_; Buffalo Symphony conductor Joan Falletta has the score but so far has not programmed or recorded it. If there's anyone who can shed some light , please do!


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Another neglected German-Austrian composer, whose Symphony in A major I found rather interesting: Leopold Damrosch (1832-1885). The symphony is possibly very traditional, nothing new, but it was rewarding enough.
> 
> In addition, I have other names worthy of investigating:
> 
> *From Germany*
> -Woldemar Bargiel (1828-1897)
> -Albert Dietrich (1829-1908)
> -Robert Radecke (1830-1911)
> -Philipp Scharwenka (1847-1917)
> -Felix Woyrsch (1860-1944)
> -Wilhelm Berger (1861-1911)
> -Emil von Sauer (1862-1942)
> -Georg Schumann (1866-1952)
> -Ewald Strässer (1867-1933)
> -Hermann Bischoff (1868-1936)
> -Paul Graener (1872-1944)
> 
> *From Austria*
> -Karl Weigl (1881-1949)
> -Egon Wellesz (1885-1974)
> -Ernst Toch (1887-1964)
> -Marcel Tyberg (1893-1944)


It's amazing, the number of symphonic composers from this era and culture whose works have been edited, performed, recorded. Earlier I made some tart remarks about opinionated musicologists, but the ones who do the real musicological work of finding scores, documents, and recordings and helping us understand them are a great blessing. At the same time the sheer bulk may intimidating. So I just take on one composer at a time and Toch is next. Don't know much of his music but his book _The Shaping Forces of Music_ is a classic for musicians. If anyone would like to explore another composer for us, please do!


----------



## KJ von NNJ

It's nice to see an appreciation for the Buffalo Philharmonic and JoAnne Falletta. I purchased the Naxos recordings of Tybergs' 2nd and 3rd symphonies 3 or so years ago. I also reviewed them (under a slightly different handle) on Amazon. I too, feel that the 3rd is a very fine work, worthy of the standard repertoire. Kudos to Maestro Falletta for helping to bring this wonderful music to light.


----------



## Lenny

KJ von NNJ said:


> It's nice to see an appreciation for the Buffalo Philharmonic and JoAnne Falletta. I purchased the Naxos recordings of Tybergs' 2nd and 3rd symphonies 3 or so years ago. I also reviewed them (under a slightly different handle) on Amazon. I too, feel that the 3rd is a very fine work, worthy of the standard repertoire. Kudos to Maestro Falletta for helping to bring this wonderful music to light.


The 3rd symphony is really good! Lush, lively, very mahlerish in a good way. I like the schertzo a lot.


----------



## Roger Knox

In the early days of this thread, Xaltothun and MusicSybarite brought my attention to Walter Braunfels. I can now add _Symphonic Variations on an Old French Song_, op. 15 (1909) and _Don Juan: A Phantasmagoria for Large Orchestra_ (1924) to the pieces I've heard. The earlier work by the 27-year-old Braunfels I find delightful, aptly orchestrated with atmospheric slow variations and bright marches -- I think its 16 minutes would fit well into a symphony concert. _Don Juan_ is a disappointment -- I think the composer erred by using the simple, over-familiar Champagne Aria from Mozart's _Don Giovanni_ as theme. "Phantasmagoria" seems to mean something like "fantasy/variations" for Braunfels, but at 36 minutes the work is too long and repetitive; if the listener experiences anything phantasmagorical it won't be because of the music! In a post on 9/17/2017, I mentioned some more appealing orchestral works by this prolific composer -- _Sinfonia brevis_, _Phantasmagorical Appearances on a Theme of Berlioz_, _Prelude and Fugue_ for orchestra; I'd love to hear a live performance of his music.


----------



## Roger Knox

> -Ernst Toch (1887-1964)


Form my recent listening and reading I think Toch was an outstanding composer who is neglected despite championship by Lawrence Wechsler and others. His seven symphonies and other serious works deserve more attention than I have given so far. The one problem for me is I can't place him as late- or post-romantic -- he was in the new, dissonant stream and though very different he is more comparable to Hindemith than, say, than Korngold. In the USA he did write for films but even his more popular music (e.g. the _Pinocchio _and _Circus Overtures_) is light and humourous, not romantic.


----------



## Roger Knox

Continuing with Music Sybarite's list (backwards):

- _ Egon Wellesz (1885-1974) _

The Viennese Wellesz was a unique and brilliant person, a significant composer and eventually an Oxford professor specializing in Byzantine music. I haven't consulted any sources but in my view his orchestra music before the Second World War combines post-romantic and modernist tendencies, and after the war is strictly modernist.

Of the former, _Vorfruehling_ (The Dawn of Spring, 1913) is a symphonic poem -- strongly influenced by Debussy's _La mer_, including the 2- note motif of that work's opening movement. Also has Expressionist tendencies, which he shared at that time with the Second Viennese School. _Prosperos Beschwoerungen_ -- 5 symphonic pieces based on Shakespeare's _The Tempest_, op.53 (1934/1936) -- strikes me as an outstanding work that, however one wishes to classify it, remains tonal and in the great Viennese symphonic tradition, lyrical, exciting, expressive in turn. Highly recommend the RSO Vienna/Albrecht version on YouTube, perhaps available on disc?


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Continuing with Music Sybarite's list (backwards):
> 
> - _ Egon Wellesz (1885-1974) _
> 
> The Viennese Wellesz was a unique and brilliant person, a significant composer and eventually an Oxford professor specializing in Byzantine music. I haven't consulted any sources but in my view his orchestra music before the Second World War combines post-romantic and modernist tendencies, and after the war is strictly modernist.
> 
> Of the former, _Vorfruehling_ (The Dawn of Spring, 1913) is a symphonic poem -- strongly influenced by Debussy's _La mer_, including the 2- note motif of that work's opening movement. Also has Expressionist tendencies, which he shared at that time with the Second Viennese School. _Prosperos Beschwoerungen_ -- 5 symphonic pieces based on Shakespeare's _The Tempest_, op.53 (1934/1936) -- strikes me as an outstanding work that, however one wishes to classify it, remains tonal and in the great Viennese symphonic tradition, lyrical, exciting, expressive in turn. Highly recommend the RSO Vienna/Albrecht version on YouTube, perhaps available on disc?


Precisely the last two weeks I was listening to the complete symphonies by this great Austrian. Personally, I found them absolutely interesting, gripping, none of them are boring. Well, perhaps this stuff is not for everybody. Definitely there is a slight resemblance to both Mahler and Bruckner (the latter one only in the powerful brass fragments), and also I'd include Hindemith. From the 5th symphony on the language changes to somewhat serialist and more chaotic, it's more dissonant yet nothing bad indeed, the music is really very bearable. Overall, his symphonic cycle is consistent, appealing, the symphonies were written by a true accomplished composer.

The other works you mentioned are worthy to investigate. And yes, there is a disc that contains _Prosperos Beschwörungen_ based on _The Tempest_ of Shakespeare. I own it but I haven't played it yet. Now I'm curious about that work!


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Definitely there is a slight resemblance to both Mahler and Bruckner (the latter one only in the powerful brass fragments), and also I'd include Hindemith.


Thanks for your post! Great to see the Albrecht-led recording of _Prospero's Beschwoerungen_! Since listening to Wellesz's first 4 symphonies, I have read that they were very influenced by Bruckner so am going to listen again. But maybe that is an overstatement?


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Thanks for your post! Great to see the Albrecht-led recording of _Prospero's Beschwoerungen_! Since listening to Wellesz's first 4 symphonies, I have read that they were very influenced by Bruckner so am going to listen again. But maybe that is an overstatement?


I think so. I can only detect some Bruckner's influence in terms of the certain heavy brass passages. The most important thing is that Wellesz does have a voice of his own, which I found quite engaging. I hope you can enjoy those symphonies as well.


----------



## Roger Knox

CORRECTION to post #166: I just listened to Wellesz's _Third Symphony _ on YouTube and realize that I haven't listened to his first 4 symphonies at all(!), though I've heard several other orchestral and vocal works. My apologies.

Anyway, the Third does have strong Bruckner characteristics: the full brass chorales, whole orchestra playing a single line in octaves, repeated violin open-fifth figure, wide melodic intervals. But the latter feature dissonant intervals, and harmonically there is much more dissonance and tonal adventure than in Bruckner. I love this work, because in my view Wellesz melds the various elements together into a strong personal statement -- the "voice of his own" as you say. I see the complete CPO set by Vienna RSO/Rabl from 2009 of all seven symphonies is available for $35.49. Nos. 5-7 are almost atonal and more dissonant.


----------



## MusicSybarite

I knew you had your ears more trained than mine!

A little correction: he composed 9 symphonies, not 7. As you say, the symphonies 5-9 are rather aggresive, much more dissonant.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> I knew you had your ears more trained than mine!
> 
> A little correction: he composed 9 symphonies, not 7. As you say, the symphonies 5-9 are rather aggresive, much more dissonant.


Thanks for the correction, I think I'll order that 9-symphony set!


----------



## Roger Knox

Oh horrors, to have came all this way without mentioning the terrific Symphony in F Major (1886) by Glasgow-born Eugen D'Albert (1864-1932), the outstanding concert pianist and composer. This work by the 22-year-old prodigy features attractive lyricism, notable harmonic and rhythmic twists, effective orchestration; the rousing finale perhaps plays to the gallery, but the work surely deserves modern-day performances. The problems: the composer's anti-British stance (later amended) following emigration and a successful career in Germany, and public disapproval of his succession of six wives (exceeding Felix Weingartner's five!). I still think the work is a keeper.


----------



## cougarjuno

Listened to Ewald Sträßer's Symphony No. 2 in D minor -- very much in the Mahler-Strauss mold but there is individuality there. Worth a listen. I see his piano concerto is recorded also so I might give that a listen as well as the first symphony. Clearly a fine symphonist.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> In addition, I have other names worthy of investigating:
> 
> *From Austria*
> -Karl Weigl (1881-1949)
> -Egon Wellesz (1885-1974)
> -Ernst Toch (1887-1964)
> -Marcel Tyberg (1893-1944)


I'd never heard of Karl Weigl till receiving this list! The eminent Jewish Viennese composer, teacher, and duo-pianist was forced by the Nazi _Anschluss_ of Austria to emigrate to the USA, where he continued to work under insecure conditions and with increasingly poor health. Nevertheless he continued to compose, over his lifetime completing six symphonies and several overtures. On YouTube there are only _Symphony No. 1_ (1908) and the third movement of _Symphony No. 2_, both with poor audio. So I haven't really heard Weigl, but my impression is that the First is very good. The Karl Weigl Foundation is fundraising for a new recording of the Second. I understand that Symphonies Five and Six are commercially recorded. Please could anyone add more info?


----------



## Templeton

Roger Knox said:


> I'd never heard of Karl Weigl till receiving this list! The eminent Jewish Viennese composer, teacher, and duo-pianist was forced by the Nazi _Anschluss_ of Austria to emigrate to the USA, where he continued to work under insecure conditions and with increasingly poor health. Nevertheless he continued to compose, over his lifetime completing six symphonies and several overtures. On YouTube there are only _Symphony No. 1_ (1908) and the third movement of _Symphony No. 2_, both with poor audio. So I haven't really heard Weigl, but my impression is that the First is very good. The Karl Weigl Foundation is fundraising for a new recording of the Second. I understand that Symphonies Five and Six are commercially recorded. Please could anyone add more info?


It looks like Thomas Sanderling and the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra recorded both on the BIS label. Both are available on Amazon. There also appear to be some choral recordings too, as well as a piano and violin concerto. Looks like they are available via streaming too.


----------



## Roger Knox

Turning now to *Felix Woyrsch* (1860-1944) (*Ewald Strasser* is yet to come)! Woyrsch's _Symphonic Prologue to Dante's Divina Commedia_ (1891) seems more like a symphonic poem than a prologue to me, although naming it as such would have been impertinent with respect to Dante's monumental masterpiece. Without having checked other sources I sense the following in the upload on YouTube:

0:00 Inferno. As a church music director Woysch might have been inhibited from getting too diabolical -- anyway it wasn't the 20th century yet! The composer strikes me as a Brahms follower, though towards the beginning of the Purgatory, there is a Tchaikovskian outburst. With the Purgatory at 9:56, in a steady-paced chorale style there are contrasts, many key changes, and glimpses of heaven -- with a nod at least to _Parsifal_. At 17:55 Paradise may have been achieved! Anyway I find Woyrsch's spiritual side convincing.

In his _First Symphony_(1907), from 35:20 onward there are similarities to the _Symphonic Prologue to Dante's Divina Commedia_ (see the gunnar frederickson upload on You Tube -- by the way does anyone own the Hamburg Symphony recording?).


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Another neglected German-Austrian composer, whose Symphony in A major I found rather interesting: Leopold Damrosch (1832-1885). The symphony is possibly very traditional, nothing new, but it was rewarding enough.
> 
> In addition, I have other names worthy of investigating:
> 
> *From Germany*
> -Woldemar Bargiel (1828-1897)
> -Albert Dietrich (1829-1908)
> -Robert Radecke (1830-1911)
> -Philipp Scharwenka (1847-1917)
> -Felix Woyrsch (1860-1944)
> -Wilhelm Berger (1861-1911)
> -Emil von Sauer (1862-1942)
> -Georg Schumann (1866-1952)
> -Ewald Strässer (1867-1933)
> -Hermann Bischoff (1868-1936)
> -Paul Graener (1872-1944)
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we've started with Woyrsch, and I know Emil von Sauer as a great pianist, and I recognize some composers' names without knowing their music, so it should be fun. The last-named had Nazi affiliations.
Click to expand...


----------



## MusicSybarite

Recently I've listened to a piece by Paul Graener called _Turmwächterlied_. Wow! This is a tremendous work! A work firmly established in the soaring post-romantic tradition (something I love). I would dare to say that it is of a heroic tone. The orchestration, the themes, the development, etc. have impressed me.


----------



## Roger Knox

*More to Come*

While collecting my thoughts on Paul Graener the person, I'm looking forward to hearing _Turmwaechterlied_. Also to come are Woysch's _First Symphony_, Ewald Strasser, & Ignaz Bruell including new up loads . . .


----------



## Roger Knox

At first Woyrsch's _Symphony No. 1_, Op. 52 in C Minor (1907) struck me as rhythmically stiff and influenced by Brahms -- specifically his _First Symphony_ -- in key and style. But after four hearings, its virtues are what remain with me. In the slow movement's opening, tonality shifts in the Wagnerian manner; then it features an attractive oboe melody that continues in an extended line and with a counter-melody. In the intriguing third movement a funereal processional style prevails through the clear-cut melody and variations (as in the corresponding movement of Beethoven's 7th Symphony); only its fast triple-time middle section is scherzo-like. The long introduction to the finale prepares a triumphant emergence of C Major, including later on a wonderful ethereal passage as in Woyrsch's Prologue to the _Divine Comedy_ (see previous post).

I find the work, though very conservative for its time, grows on me and somehow I like it very much.


----------



## rw181383

Roger, buy the Hyperion disc with von Sauer’s Piano Concerto No. 1. It’s fantastic! It’s worth it just for the Cavatina alone. And you get Scharwenka’s Piano Concerto No. 4, which is excellent as well.


----------



## Roger Knox

rw181383 said:


> Roger, buy the Hyperion disc with von Sauer's Piano Concerto No. 1. It's fantastic! It's worth it just for the Cavatina alone. And you get Scharwenka's Piano Concerto No. 4, which is excellent as well.


Thanks for the tip! And if people are interested I think now we should _encourage concertos_ on this thread.


----------



## Roger Knox

Ewald Sträßer's _Symphony No. 1_ in G major, Op. 22 (1909) is an excellent work with many notable features -- the flow and sweep of the first movement, the yearning melody and it's development in the second, and the originality of the third, which has an intriguing folk-like strain in the trio section inviting more investigation.

Before getting to the finale, I'd like to mention a feature used frequently since Beethoven's _Symphony, No. 3, "Eroica"_ at least. Loud sforzando chords, such as the opening two in that work, were designed for impressive reverberation in nineteenth-century concert halls. Some recordings capture these effects better than others but IMHO (in this work anyway) they would sound best in the concert hall, where the listener is "immersed" and gets a more rounded impression. Sträßer uses quite a few sforzandos, I think too many in the finale. Same with the very rapid ascending scale followed by the "Scotch snap" (BEE-baaaaaa) sharp cutoff figure. That said, the movement brings back previous material and is an impressive conclusion. Definitely worth hearing.


----------



## Roger Knox

cougarjuno said:


> Listened to Ewald Sträßer's Symphony No. 2 in D minor -- very much in the Mahler-Strauss mold but there is individuality there. Clearly a fine symphonist.


Yes! I agree about Ewald Sträßer's individuality and his fine ways especially with line and with counterpoint to his appealing themes. Compared to his first symphony, dark minor-key harmony* in a more advanced and assured manner prevails in the first two movements, except the major key trio of the second movement scherzo. There's a wonderful slow section in the latter part of the third movement (variations). The finale (major-key) flows better than does that of his first symphony. IMHO Sträßer's been neglected -- he wrote six symphonies in total.
* "dark minor-key harmony": e.g. chord progression D Minor to B-Flat Minor plus its various transpositions used repeatedly. B-Flat Minor triad _distant_ from D Minor because their keys don't share the note D-Flat. But they have a common tone, F, & smooth voice-leading potential: D to D-Flat, and A to B-Flat. Overall effect I think is smooth but unsettling. Done!


----------



## Roger Knox

Concerning the _Symphony No. 2_ (1912) of Hermann Bischoff (1868-1936; Rheinland-Pfalz PO/Albert), I'll hold off on comparisons to other composers except to say that he was part of the Richard Strauss circle. It's an admirable work, showing his abilities with innovations of the period in harmony, texture and orchestration. For me it's enjoyable in many places though more dramatic sweep and sense of timing would have drawn me in further.

A question: Some composers of this era who bring "light music" into their profound works succeed magnificently. Bischoff certainly is adept with musical style, and I'm going leave to the question of how well he succeeds in combining light and profound open -- would like to hear from other listeners!


----------



## Charade

starthrower said:


> Zemlinsky


Out of all, Zemlinsky is my most favorite. His music is so gorgeous and intoxicating.


----------



## kyjo

rw181383 said:


> Roger, buy the Hyperion disc with von Sauer's Piano Concerto No. 1. It's fantastic! It's worth it just for the Cavatina alone. And you get Scharwenka's Piano Concerto No. 4, which is excellent as well.


Totally agree - von Sauer's Piano Concerto no. 1 is utterly fantastic! Great tunes abound, and the Cavatina slow movement is heart-stoppingly gorgeous!


----------



## KenOC

rw181383 said:


> Roger, buy the Hyperion disc with von Sauer's Piano Concerto No. 1. It's fantastic! It's worth it just for the Cavatina alone. And you get Scharwenka's Piano Concerto No. 4, which is excellent as well.


That Hyperion recording of the two concertos won Gramophone's Record of the Year for 1996.


----------



## kyjo

KenOC said:


> That Hyperion recording of the two concertos won Gramophone's Record of the Year for 1996.


Quite deservingly indeed! One of my most treasured recordings.


----------



## rw181383

kyjo said:


> Totally agree - von Sauer's Piano Concerto no. 1 is utterly fantastic! Great tunes abound, and the Cavatina slow movement is heart-stoppingly gorgeous!


Kyjo, I still can't believe it's not programmed more. Instead we get Grieg, Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, Rach 2, and Tchaikovsky 1 over and over again. I enjoy those works, but some variety goes a long way.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Recently I've listened to a piece by Paul Graener called _Turmwächterlied_. Wow! This is a tremendous work! A work firmly established in the soaring post-romantic tradition (something I love). I would dare to say that it is of a heroic tone. The orchestration, the themes, the development, etc. have impressed me.


I agree with your estimation and comments on the Paul Graener (1872-1944) symphonic poem and night-piece _Turmwächterlied_ (Altenburg-Gera PO/Solen). It sets several moods effectively in traversing the night-watchman's shift, from the dark and sombre opening through to a crisis, ending nobly with effective brass passages. The work differs from his lighter _Symphonietta_ op. 27, _Divertimento_ op. 67, and _Wiener Sinfonie_ op. 110, and also from the folk-influenced _The Flute of Sanssouci_ (archival NBC Symph/Toscanini recording on YouTube). Considering Graener's birth year of 1872, there was tremendous competition in his generation of composers (Mahler, Strauss, d'Albert, von Schillings, Pfitzner, Zemlinsky, von Hausegger, Reger, Schmidt, Schoenberg, Schreker) for orchestral or stage-work performances. He felt left out, and getting performances was one reason for his Nazi involvements. There is ample information about Graener on the internet and in Michael Kater's _The Twisted Muse_.


----------



## Roger Knox

Initially *Philipp Ludwig Scharwenka (1847-1917) *presents a somewhat complex picture, so let us first dispel any confusion between him and his virtuoso pianist younger brother Franz Xaver. Composer, conductor, theory teacher and administrator, Philipp forged his own successful career. So, Listen Up please!

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/c...-philipp-scharwenka-three-works-for-orchestra

On a fine 2007 recording by PO Gävle/Christoffer Fifield, cond., the _Arcadian Suite_ in B Major, Op. 76 (1887) includes two hidden gems in between the first and fourth movements. The second, Damon und Daphne, is a gentle dance with fine melodic development and nice variations in phrasing. Shepherd's Love Lament and Serenade follows, the heartfelt peak of the whole work that I find very moving (note the concertante clarinet). On a larger scale _Love Night: Fantasy Piece for Orchestra_, op. 40, maintains Wagnerian intensity throughout and excels in melodic shaping, harmony, orchestration, and flow. _Spring Waves_, Op. 87 is more pastoral with charming moments. It also appears on Introducing Sterling Records (2017), a sampler with the same orchestra conducted this time by Mars Liljefors. I haven't heard the works on the 2010 recording by the PO Altenburg/Eril Solen but brief excerpts suggest works of similar interest: _Polish Folk Dances_, Op. 20; _Forest- and Mountain-Spirits_, Op. 37, and especially _Dramatic Fantasy_, op. 108. CD's are rare but downloads are available.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/c...dwig-philipp-scharwenka-dramatische-phantasie


----------



## Roger Knox

Sometimes the price of last-in-stock CD's leaves me wondering why I'm doing this. Such is the case with recordings on Cameo Classics of music by *Ignaz Brull (1846-1907)*:

https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_n...MPOSERS&rh=n:916514,k:JEWISH+GERMAN+COMPOSERS

In any case the _Symphony in E minor_, Op. 46, and the _Macbeth Overture_ are well worth hearing:










I admire especially the compact and intriguing Symphony for its four strong movements, with interesting folk-derived middle movements and an expressive, exciting finale. Brull was an important associate of Brahms. If anyone can suggest price-hunting strategies please do!


----------



## Roger Knox

Some other composers *MusicSybarite* suggested looking up -- all contemporaries of *Karl Goldmark (1830-1915):*

*Leopold Damrosch*: _Festival Overture_, Op. 15 (1871),_ Symphony in A_ (1878)
Azusa Pacific University SO/Christopher Russell (based in California)
Toccata Classics 2015
https://toccataclassics.com/product/leopold-damrosch-orchestral-music/#

The above recording includes impressive works by the German conductor-composer *Leopold Damrosch (1832-85)*, father of Clara Mannes, Walter and Frank Damrosch who all were influential in development of music life in New York City. The funeral march of the _[Symphony (slow movement) is especially effective. With emigration Damrosch brought knowledge of the Neue Deutsche Music to America in 1871 and it shows in his brass orchestration, especially low brass. Both this and the Bargiel recording below are on Toccata Classics where you can listen to the complete work, download tracks on iTunes, or purchase the complete recording in various formats.

*Walter Bargiel* Complete Orchestral Music, Vol. 1 (there is no Vol. 2 so far)
Symphony in C Major, Op. 30 (1864); Concert Overtures
Siberian SO/Dimitri Vasilyev
Toccata Classics 2014
https://toccataclassics.com/product/bargiel-orchestral-music-1/

I have mixed reactions to the music of *Walter Bargiel (1828-97)*, preferring on this recording the excellent Overture to a Tragedy, Op. 18 (1856) and the effective Overture to Medea, Op. 22 (c. 1861). The former is especially good in creative a grave mood and using sharp contrasts in orchestration and register to maintain it. The latter through harmonic invention conveys strong emotions and a sense of fate in portraying the sorceress. The Symphony and the Overture to Prometheus, Op. 16 (1852; rev. 1854 & 1869) are stiff and the Beethoven influence is unnatural for this composer I think. Bargiel was a significant conductor and teacher, and the half-brother of Clara Schumann.

*Robert Radecke*: Symphony Op. 50; Nachtstuck, Op. 55; Zwei Scherzi, Op. 52; Overture to 'Shakespeare's Konig Johann,' Op. 25 
Biel Solothurn SO/ Kaspar Zehnder
CPO 2016
https://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=3120137

The orchestral music of *Robert Radecke (1830-1911)* is only known to me through promising brief excerpts from this well-reviewed CPO recording. The composer studied in Leipzig and later became a respected conductor and teacher in Berlin._


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Some other composers *MusicSybarite* suggested looking up -- all contemporaries of *Karl Goldmark (1830-1915):*
> 
> *Leopold Damrosch*: _Festival Overture_, Op. 15 (1871),_ Symphony in A_ (1878)
> Azusa Pacific University SO/Christopher Russell (based in California)
> Toccata Classics 2015
> https://toccataclassics.com/product/leopold-damrosch-orchestral-music/#
> 
> The above recording includes impressive works by the German conductor-composer *Leopold Damrosch (1832-85)*, father of Clara Mannes, Walter and Frank Damrosch who all were influential in development of music life in New York City. The funeral march of the _[Symphony (slow movement) is especially effective. With emigration Damrosch brought knowledge of the Neue Deutsche Music to America in 1871 and it shows in his brass orchestration, especially low brass. Both this and the Bargiel recording below are on Toccata Classics where you can listen to the complete work, download tracks on iTunes, or purchase the complete recording in various formats.
> 
> *Walter Bargiel* Complete Orchestral Music, Vol. 1 (there is no Vol. 2 so far)
> Symphony in C Major, Op. 30 (1864); Concert Overtures
> Siberian SO/Dimitri Vasilyev
> Toccata Classics 2014
> https://toccataclassics.com/product/bargiel-orchestral-music-1/
> 
> I have mixed reactions to the music of *Walter Bargiel (1828-97)*, preferring on this recording the excellent Overture to a Tragedy, Op. 18 (1856) and the effective Overture to Medea, Op. 22 (c. 1861). The former is especially good in creative a grave mood and using sharp contrasts in orchestration and register to maintain it. The latter through harmonic invention conveys strong emotions and a sense of fate in portraying the sorceress. The Symphony and the Overture to Prometheus, Op. 16 (1852; rev. 1854 & 1869) are stiff and the Beethoven influence is unnatural for this composer I think. Bargiel was a significant conductor and teacher, and the half-brother of Clara Schumann.
> 
> *Robert Radecke*: Symphony Op. 50; Nachtstuck, Op. 55; Zwei Scherzi, Op. 52; Overture to 'Shakespeare's Konig Johann,' Op. 25
> Biel Solothurn SO/ Kaspar Zehnder
> CPO 2016
> https://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=3120137
> 
> The orchestral music of *Robert Radecke (1830-1911)* is only known to me through promising brief excerpts from this well-reviewed CPO recording. The composer studied in Leipzig and later became a respected conductor and teacher in Berlin._


_

I find the Symphony by Bargiel very invigorating in a classical-romantic mould. The Damrosch is significantly impressive too. The Radecke is yet unknown to me._


----------



## Roger Knox

*Georg Schumann (1866-1952)* was an important Berlin-based composer and conductor, in particular at that city's Sing-Academie. His orchestral music is represented on excellent cpo recordings from 2017 and from 2009, which are available as CD's or downloads:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/c...6154--georg-schumann-symphony-op-42-overtures

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/c...georg-schumann-symphony-in-b-minor-a-serenade

The 2017 release (Deutsches SO Berlin/James Feddick) includes his overtures _Prelude to a Drama_ (1906) and _Lebensfreude_ (pub. 1911), plus his important _Symphony in F Minor_ (1905), which carries his style forward in a post-romantic direction from his earlier Brahms-influenced _Symphony No. 1 in B Minor _ (1887). That work appears along with his _Serenade_, op. 34 (1902) on the 2009 release (Munich Rundfunk Orchestra/Christoph Gedschold).

Georg Schumann is an important, unjustly forgotten composer whose reviews have been good, but I've only heard short excerpts so can't say much more. On YouTube are inferior-sounding recordings of the noble _Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel_ (1925; "The Harmonious Blacksmith" theme) conducted by the composer, and the comic _Vetter Michel Variations (1930)_. Does anyone has any Georg Schumann recordings?


----------



## Roger Knox

*Fritz Volbach (1861-1940)*

I heard the _Symphony in B Minor_ (1909) by composer, conductor, and music scholar *Fritz Volbach(1861-1940)* some time ago and was impressed, despite the queasy audio on the recording by the Philharmonia Hungarica/Gilbert Varga. After three more hearings I think it's the best of the late romantic symphonies I've heard recently! The first movement's multi-layered opening, affecting song theme, and developmental counterpoint are excellent; same with the imaginative scherzo with its 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 opening beat (likely a folk-dance from points east) alternating with a waltz, and the heart-on-sleeve slow and final movements that I admire too. His earlier symphonic poem _Es waren zwei Koenigskinder_ is more traditional, again with fine melodies and expressive harmonies. No identifying information for performers is given with this upload:

https://www.dlmusicas.xyz/mp3/Bom-Cabedal.html

Volbach wore several hats, and was a prolific author of composer biographies. He composed two other symphonic poems, and one might wish there were more symphonies since obviously he had the right stuff. I hope there are better recordings somewhere and will keep looking.


----------



## Roger Knox

We have come to the last additional orchestral composer from the information provided by MusicSybarite, Genoveva and others. Thank you everyone for your contributions! (Onward with concertos and other concertante works . . .)

The _Symphony in D Minor_(1869) by *Albert Dietrich (1829-1908)* it is an extremely good one, with four fine movements. Especially, his lyrical gift keeps the long line going as is heard in the lilting slow movement melody. His rhythmic sense is lively: frequent syncopations (off-beats held over) throughout the piece, and cross-rhythms in the 3-to-a-measure scherzo (the "hemiola" or 2 + 2 + 2 pattern replacing 3 + 3), contribute a dance feel. Dietrich was court composer in Oldenburg, Germany; for the 100th anniversary of his death in 2008, it is wonderful that the Oldenberg SO/Alexander Rumpf and cpo provided such an appealing account of the symphony. The recording also includes his _Violin Concerto in D Minor_ and _Introduction and Romance for Horn and Orchestra_.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> We have come to the last additional orchestral composer from the information provided by MusicSybarite, Genoveva and others. Thank you everyone for your contributions! (Onward with concertos and other concertante works . . .)
> 
> The _Symphony in D Minor_(1869) by *Albert Dietrich (1829-1908)* it is an extremely good one, with four fine movements. Especially, his lyrical gift keeps the long line going as is heard in the lilting slow movement melody. His rhythmic sense is lively: frequent syncopations (off-beats held over) throughout the piece, and cross-rhythms in the 3-to-a-measure scherzo (the "hemiola" or 2 + 2 + 2 pattern replacing 3 + 3), contribute a dance feel. Dietrich was court composer in Oldenburg, Germany; for the 100th anniversary of his death in 2008, it is wonderful that the Oldenberg SO/Alexander Rumpf and cpo provided such an appealing account of the symphony. The recording also includes his _Violin Concerto in D Minor_ and _Introduction and Romance for Horn and Orchestra_.


This symphony is the missing link between Brahms and Schumann. A rather appealing work to say the least.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> So pleased to have just discovered Friedrich Gernsheim's late tone poem _Zu einem Drama_ in C Minor, Op. 81 (1910).


Correction:_Zu einem Drama_ is a concert overture.


----------



## Roger Knox

Summarizing neglected German/Austrian composers of orchestral music added in recent months, to this thread's earlier lists:

*born 1820-1849:*
Albert Dietrich
Leopold Damrosch 
Waldemar Bargiel
Philip Scharwenka
Ignaz Bruell

*born 1850-1874:*
Emil von Reznicek
Hugo Wolf (as orchestral composer)
Felix von Woyrsch
Fritz Volbach
Ludwig Thuile
Eugen d'Albert
Ewald Straesser
Hermann Bischoff
Georg Schumann
Paul Graener

*born 1875-1899:*
Karl Weigl
Egon Wellesz
Rudi Stefan
Marcel Tyberg

Of course the lists are subjective and open to changes, so please keep posting on orchestral music -- quite a few composers are omitted and the above names could be questioned. (In a few cases, inclusion is based on only one work.) Haven't had the opportunity to hear music by William Berger or Robert Radecke yet. Will get to Emil von Sauer and F.X. Scharwenka with *concertos discussion*-- onward and upward!

A number of TalkClassical members are veterans in this era and thanks again for your help, especially MusicSybarite.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Summarizing neglected German/Austrian composers of orchestral music added in recent months, to this thread's earlier lists:
> 
> *born 1820-1849:*
> Albert Dietrich
> Leopold Damrosch
> Waldemar Bargiel
> Philip Scharwenka
> Ignaz Bruell
> 
> *born 1850-1874:*
> Emil von Reznicek
> Hugo Wolf (as orchestral composer)
> Felix von Woyrsch
> Fritz Volbach
> Ludwig Thuile
> Eugen d'Albert
> Ewald Straesser
> Hermann Bischoff
> Georg Schumann
> Paul Graener
> 
> *born 1875-1899:*
> Karl Weigl
> Egon Wellesz
> Rudi Stefan
> Marcel Tyberg
> 
> Of course the lists are subjective and open to changes, so please keep posting on orchestral music -- quite a few composers are omitted and the above names could be questioned. (In a few cases, inclusion is based on only one work.) Haven't had the opportunity to hear music by William Berger or Robert Radecke yet. Will get to Emil von Sauer and F.X. Scharwenka with *concertos discussion*-- onward and upward!
> 
> A number of TalkClassical members are veterans in this era and thanks again for your help, especially MusicSybarite.


You're welcome! It's a pleasure to be able to help and suggest what the modest knowledge of one can offer.


----------



## MusicSybarite

I think we've already talked about Richard Wetz (1875-1935), a German composer whose style belongs to a full late-romantic field. I didn't recall how extraordinary his 3 symphonies are! I especially like the No. 2 in A major. It's the most consistent, tuneful and epic. This sort of stuff delights me galore.

There is a recording on YouTube (I really like the backgrounds this guy uses, very appropriate):






Traumsommernacht for female chorus and orchestra, Kleist Ouverture and the Violin Concerto are great as well. I need to familiarize with Hyperion for baritone, chorus and orchestra, Gesang des Lebens for chorus and orchestra, Ein Weihnachtsoratorium and the Requiem. These works are the ones that are recorded AFAIK.


----------



## MusicSybarite

I've just stumbled upon two great works: Felix Draeseke's Gudrun Overture and August Klughardt's (not named yet I think) Symphony No. 4.

Both works are worth listening. The Draeseke's owns a strong spirit, full of romanticism and memorable themes. Another overture that goes straight to my all-time favorite overtures.

The Klughardt's features a nobility that reminds to Elgar (2nd movement), something really inspiring. Overall, the work is strongly rooted in the romantic tradition, not properly late-romanticism.

All in all, two excellent discoveries.


----------



## Jacck

Has Anton Urspruch been mentioned already?


----------



## Roger Knox

*Emil von Sauer (1862-1942) Piano Concertos 1 & 2*



rw181383 said:


> Roger, buy the Hyperion disc with von Sauer's Piano Concerto No. 1. It's fantastic! It's worth it just for the Cavatina alone. And you get Scharwenka's Piano Concerto No. 4, which is excellent as well.


Thank you, rw181383, for bringing to my attention the above recording played by Stephen Hough & the City of Birmingham Orchestra/Lawrence Foster. Including Scharwenka No. 4 also, it was Gramophone Record of the Year in 1996. The uploaded first movement shows why, IMO: *Emil von Sauer* (1862-1942) has a particular gift for lyric writing which Hough realizes sensitively (e.g. in the Cavatina), while right-hand filigree and the work's more strenuously virtuosic passages are no problem for him. I've only heard excerpts from the later movements and Scharwenka 4, but everyone raves about this still-available recording. (The important Scharwenka I'll get to later.)

*Von Sauer's* Piano Concerto No. 2, which I've yet to hear, is also available played by Oleg Marshev, with the Aarhus Symphony Orchestra conducted by James Loughran on Danecord.


----------



## Roger Knox

Initially I didn't think German composer *Ernst Boehe (1880-1938)* was very important, but recently I've changed my mind. His postromantic symphonic poems _Taormina_(1906) and the 4-part _From Odysseus' Journey_ (1903-_ff_) show a lot of influence from Strauss and Mahler (compare the opening of _Taormina_ to that of Mahler's 1st Symphony). But there is an underlying seriousness and depth to his music that, despite long slow stretches, makes him interesting and more than an imitator. My initial impression is that his harmony and orchestration are excellent, and while he does not equal his friend Strauss in melodic/contrapuntal genius and compositional creativity, who does? To appreciate _From Odysseus' Journey_ based on Homer's epic you need to follow a long program, which I haven't done. Let's just say there's much that is attractive in these two works, while his shorter orchestral works are of less interest. After 1910 Boehe gave up composing to focus on conducting in Oldenberg and Ludwigshafen-am-Rhein in northwest Germany. It's fitting that these are the locales of _cpo_ recordings and of the Rheinland-Pfalz State PO where Werner Andreas Albert conducted the _cpo_ releases _Symphonic Poems Vol. 1_ (2002) and _Vol. 2 _ (2005).


----------



## Roger Knox

As with Ernst Boehe I wasn't much impressed by Berlin-based *Heinz Tiessen (1887-1971)* at first. The socialist composer-conductor-teacher's creative career was blocked by the Nazis and never recovered. Of his two symphonies I've heard only _Sinfonia No. 2_ (1912), which is interesting, and of his overtures and suites only _Prelude to a Revolutionary Drama, op. 33_ (1928), which is less so. Coming from Strauss and Mahler and seen by one commentator as leaning in the direction of Joseph Marx, Tiessen's harmony is more advanced that that of Boehe and he handles Schreker-like dissonance and voice leading very well. If you like proto-Expressionism as I do you will like Tiessen, though at least one critic on the internet has eviscerated his compositions in a way that is totally uncalled for. The recording _Heinz Tiessen Orchestral Works_ (2000) is on KochSchwann with the RSO Berlin/Israel Yimon. After World War II Tiessen taught at Berlin Musikhochschule where his most important students were Sergiu Celebidache and Eduard Erdmann.


----------



## Roger Knox

rw181383 said:


> Roger, buy the Hyperion disc ... And you get Scharwenka's Piano Concerto No. 4, which is excellent as well.


Yes indeed Scharwenka's _Piano Concerto No. 4_ (1908) is a real tour de force of pianism and composition. We are in super-virtuoso territory. The first movement is brilliant, ardent and gutsy. In the second, towards the extended quicksilver filigree passage in the piano above the orchestra is a knockout. The lento has real substance and feeling while the finale ("tarantella") is just hair-raising -- those rapid broken-chord octaves would strike terror into a pianist! They must have been a Scharwenka specialty. On the Hyperion recording with von Sauer's Concerto No. 1, Lukascz Borowitz and the Poznan Philiharmonic/Poirat are tremendous.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> I heard the _Symphony in B Minor_ (1909) by composer, conductor, and music scholar *Fritz Volbach(1861-1940)* some time ago and was impressed


Erroneus. Should be *Fritz Voyrach (1861-1940)*


----------



## Roger Knox

The amazing _Piano Concerto No. 1 in B-flat Minor_, Op. 32 (1876) by *Franz Xaver Scharwenka (1850-1924)* put the virtuoso on the map as a composer. It received great acclaim from both the public and other pianists, a few who were bold enough to take it into their repertoire. Then it fell into neglect until Earl Wild's legendary recording in the late 1960's. There have been more excellent recordings over the past decade, now available at ArkivMusic, PrestoClassical, etc. I'll just make a few comments and suggest going straight to the recordings, which have useful program notes.

Concerning super-virtuoso Earl Wild, he studied with Selmar Janson who learned this work from his teacher, Scharwenka himself. In taster excepts from his recording, the way he turns a simple arpeggio into something meaningful and elegant is IMO an example of what sets him apart: connection with the best of earlier tradition of Romantic pianism. It reminds me of hearing Josef Gingold perform the Mendelssohn _Violin Concerto _in his elder years. He played the little arpeggio that opens the finale with such wit that the audience was grinning; it seemed to me like a "wakey-wakey" call following the gentle slow movement. Concerning virtuosity, in this piece frequent wide-spanned coverage of the piano register involves unusual though playable configurations -- but Marc-Andre Hamelin and Alexander Markovitch are equal to the task:


----------



## MusicSybarite

The Scharwenka's concertos are incredibly grandiose and they have the fair elements to enjoy them: tunes, virtuosism, liricism, passion, cohesion. Not only are his concertos great, but also his chamber music and Symphony in C minor (the works I know so far). Scharwenka was a consistent composer all around.


----------



## Roger Knox

By comparison to Scharwenka's Concerto No. 1, the first concertos of Raff, Reinecke, and Gernsheim stay closer to "conventional" Romantic piano concerto technique, if one might use such an expression. Raff's is the most difficult, especially at the blistering tempo of Michael Ponti's recording. Reinecke and Gernsheim show Brahms influence in use of thicker lower-register textures. Overall, in these works I sense a kind of "innocence" (not the same thing as "light music") and enjoy them very much, especially here in summertime!


----------



## Roger Knox

The Piano Concerto No. 2 in C Minor, op. 56 (1881) by *Franz Xaver Scharwenka* opens with a stormy, moody Allegro, heavy in texture and with some tonal wandering though not enough to put the key in doubt. Technically the pianist is faced with challenging passages featuring doubling by 6ths in the right hand; in the cadenza, left hand octaves complicate things further. Muted strings open the slow movement in A-flat Major, with Chopin-like ornamenting of the melody as in the corresponding movement of this first concerto. The wonderful finale has a catchy tune and some features of the Polish _krakowiak_ dance: rising melody in duple time, trills and turns, and a subtle oop-pah accompaniment -- a cyclic aspect of the work is the return here of the opening movement's theme.

Re recordings of Scharwenka #2, let's give a shout-out to super-virtuoso Michael Ponti who did so much with his Vox LP's and world tours to bring neglected Romantic repertoire to the public! In my young piano performer days some of us looked down on Ponti for his "less sophisticated" repertoire and style, but not now -- long may he be honoured! Of the available CD's listed below, I've heard his bravura and admittedly sometimes bangy version, but not the Alexander Markevitch performance which also comes recommended:

Michael Ponti w. Hambourg SO/Richard Kapp
Vox Box (recorded 1969-71)

Alexander Markevitch w. Estonian National PO/Neeme Jarvi
Chandos (2014)

Seta Tanyel with the Hannover RPO/Tadeusz Strugala 
The Romantic Piano Concerto, Vol. 33 
Hyperion (2003)


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> the first concertos of Raff, Reinecke, and Gernsheim


Actually, of the three composers above, only Carl Reinecke wrote more than one piano concerto (there are four). Now considering further *Joachim Raff's* Piano Concerto in C Minor, op. 185 (1873), it is a lively and delightful though not profound work. The pastoral slow movement opens with an oboe solo followed by piano "birdsong" over a left-hand melody (do I hear owl-hoots in the sliding string harmonics at the close?). Raff builds excitement with rhythmic drive and perpetual motion piano passages. The finale is like a rousing march that becomes a wild ride, in the spirit of fun more than of show-off virtuosity.

_(fast bravura performance)_
Michael Ponti w. Hamourg SO/Richard Kapp
Romantic Piano Concertos, Vol. 1 -- Vox

_(slower lyrical performance)_
Jean-Francois Antonelli w. Och. de Chambre de Lausanne/Laure
Claves Records


----------



## Roger Knox

*Friedrich Gernsheim's* Piano Concerto in C Minor, op. 16 (1868) is a gem: a compact, conservative Romantic work in three fine movements. The composer was a piano prodigy who made his career in composing and conducting -- so his solo writing is idiomatic and effective and his orchestration sounds well. The opening movement sets an ardent mood and divides thematic material so that the whole has a conversational flow. It is followed by a Larghetto, the quite beautiful highlight. In the closing rondo the technical bar is raised with some Brahmsian virtuosity, but the solo part still is more manageable for the pianist than are, say, Scharwenka's finales! The recording by Oliver Triendl with the Nurnberg Philharmoniker/Radislaw Szulc is excellent but a quick search failed to locate a vendor -- I wonder why?


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Alexander Markevitch w. Estonian National PO/Neeme Jarvi
> Chandos (2014)
> 
> Seta Tanyel with the Hannover RPO/Tadeusz Strugala
> The Romantic Piano Concerto, Vol. 33
> Hyperion (2003)


As for the Piano Concerto No. 3 in D Minor (1889) by *Franz Xaver Scharwenka*, it is available as is No. 2 in the above recordings: the Markevitch two-CD set (or downloads) with all four Scharwenka concertos; and the Tanyel pairing of Nos. 2 & 3. I recommend the Markevitch, which in addition to commanding pianism features excellent interplay with the Neeme Jarvi-conducted orchestra. Haven't dealt with Scharwenka's heritage yet. The father was Czech, the mother's background was Polish, they moved from Prague to Frankfurt-am-Oder, then to Samter, Prussia (which has a different name now, in Poland.) Scharwenka came to Berlin for advanced training, and lived there except for a period in New York. But his piano works often have a Polish connection through dance types; the second concerto features the _krakowiak_ and the third the _mazurka_. In a thunderously virtuosic opening movement the emotional, sometimes anguished second theme is notable and it recurs frequently. At a slower tempo it becomes the main theme of the second movement, the cyclic principle of unity between movements through melodic linkage being at work here. (I am not a great fan of this principle if a theme starts to become a fixed idea!) Then in the finale it returns in truly Polish guise as a mazurka, in triple time with characteristic 2nd or 3rd beat accents. Was this extended thematic process analogous to Poland's long struggle for unification and independence, to be achieved in 1918?


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Erroneus. Should be *Fritz Voyrach (1861-1940)*


Oh No! Should have been *Fritz Volbach (1861-1940)*. My summer break is sorely needed.


----------



## Roger Knox

I'm off for the summer now. Going to take some more time with *Carl Reinecke's*four Piano Concertos, as well as his other ones over the next couple of months. Reinecke has become a subject of increased academic interest, and perhaps that will add to recordings and performances of his music too.

While I'm comfortable with piano, I wish we could attract interest from string players and people knowledgeable about string concertos! The reason is there quite a few new recordings including premieres of compositions by neglected composers. Anyway, please keep posting on anything relevant! Thanks to everyone for your interest and contributions.


----------



## Roger Knox

Having said I'm off for the summer, that doesn't mean I've stopped listening, at least in the piano concerto category! Carl Reinecke's four piano concertos plus the piano concertos by Joachim Raff and Friedrich Gernsheim are my favourites from the neglected German and Austrian composers born 1820-49 (leaving F.X. Scharwenka [b. 1850] for the next group). Also Raff's _Suite for Piano and Orchestra_ in E-Flat Major, op. 200 (1875) is significant and highly enjoyable, especially the third movement Gavotte! Still pondering Max Bruch's impressive Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra in A flat minor(!), Op. 88a and a few other works. Certainly Johannes Brahms (b. 1833) is IMO still the greatest, for his Piano Concertos No. 1 in D Minor and No. 2 in B-Flat Major -- but why can't we hear one of the others in concert even occasionally?


----------



## kyjo

Roger Knox said:


> Having said I'm off for the summer, that doesn't mean I've stopped listening, at least in the piano concerto category! Carl Reinecke's four piano concertos plus the piano concertos by Joachim Raff and Friedrich Gernsheim are my favourites from the neglected German and Austrian composers born 1820-49 (leaving F.X. Scharwenka [b. 1850] for the next group). Also Raff's _Suite for Piano and Orchestra_ in E-Flat Major, op. 200 (1875) is significant and highly enjoyable, especially the third movement Gavotte! Still pondering Max Bruch's impressive Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra in A flat minor(!), Op. 88a and a few other works. Certainly Johannes Brahms (b. 1833) is IMO still the greatest, for his Piano Concertos No. 1 in D Minor and No. 2 in B-Flat Major -- but why can't we hear one of the others in concert even occasionally?


Agree with you Roger about the Raff Suite for Piano and Orchestra - an immensely enjoyable work! That third movement Gavotte is so catchy!


----------



## cougarjuno

Raff's Ode to Spring for Piano and Orchestra is a much more concise work but still an engaging piece. Very Chopinesque.


----------



## Roger Knox

Jacck said:


> Has Anton Urspruch been mentioned already?


No, missed him! The Piano Concerto in E-Flat Major, op. 9 (Oliver Triendl; NWDPO/George Fritsch) and Symphony in E-Flat Major, op. 14 (NWDPO/Marcus Bosch) by Anton Urspruch (1850-1907) are available on CD or download in a 2018 Cpo release -- see the above links. Some grumbly reviewers' remarks about the works really annoy me -- how can they imagine themselves to be "guardians of the canon" with their brief evaluations? Anyway, I find both to be excellent compositions in a cheerful pastoral mode -- lots of pedal tones, trills and major-key harmony. Olivier Triendl handles the Piano Concerto's difficult figuration well; he is expressive and delicate in the slow movement, jolly in the finale. The Symphony is conservative for its day, but warm and well-crafted with an impressive finale. Both demonstrate well the composer's individual voice IMO.


----------



## Roger Knox

I should have included the two piano concertos of *Herman Goetz (1840-76)*; both have their merits and are appealing when well-played. The early Piano Concerto No. 1 in E-Flat Major (1861) is in one movement with four sections. Goetz's skilled piano figuration, interesting harmonization, and effective orchestration are already evident. The adagio section is largely chordal but packs expressive power, while the final part is technically brilliant and exciting. Piano Concerto No. 2 in B-Flat Major, op. 18 (1867) is full-length and demonstrates his mastery of every area of composition and pianistic idiom. It begins in a noble style leading to a yearning theme that is moving. In the slow movement, woodwinds come to the fore and join with the piano in a touching lullaby that becomes troubled, then returns to its opening with the horn and strings in close canon and the piano decorating with a second theme. An energetic virtuoso finale with a waltz sway closes this impressive and moving work!

As for recordings there are several choices including two CD's containing both concertos. The recent 2016 release on Naxos (including also Goetz's _Spring Overture_) features the commanding pianism of Italy's Davide Cabassi with the Magdeburg Philharmonic conducted by Kimbo Ishii. But I prefer a CPO disc from 1995 with Volker Banfield; Hannover RPO/Werner Andreas Albert, which touches the heart as piano and orchestra capture together the spirit of phrases moving ahead emotionally. The recording is also available as part of 3-volume CPO set (2003) including Goetz's complete orchestral works. I haven't heard Hyperion's 2010 release with Hamish Milne; BBC Scottish Symphony/Michal Dworzynski that includes Goetz's Concerto No. 2 plus the Concerto in G Minor, op. 20 by Jozef Wieniawski (Henryk's brother). And for Michael Ponti fans No. 2 is included on both vols. 1 and 5 of his old Vox series _The Romantic Piano Concerto_.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Reinecke Piano Concertos 3 & 4*

I'm going to proceed through the piano concertos by *Carl Reinecke (1824-1910)* from the latest backwards. The _Piano Concerto No. 4 in B Minor_, op. 254 (1901) is an attractive work by the 77-year-old master, who in this work is clear and straightforward without losing effectiveness. In the opening Allegro, the solo part is less difficult than in his earlier concertos, the left hand used largely for resonance rather than providing a separate musical part in areas where it would be drowned out by the orchestra anyway. And Reinecke has also reduced the right hand span while providing elegant passage-work. The Adagio is thoroughly romantic and sincere, while the major key Finale's theme is light but not cloying, and is treated to delightful twists and turns with sparkling decorations.

As for the great _Piano Concerto No. 3 in C Major_, op. 149 (1877), it's a work that has rewarded me with multiple persuasive hearings and would be excellent in live performance. In the calm beginning of the opening movement there is a little harmonic twist in the second chord that becomes important later on. With Reinecke the harmonic interest is in voice-leading, unusual dissonant notes, and chords worked into filigree, rather than in the innovative key changes and tonal structures of the Wagnerians. The slow movement brings to mind words like "noble" and "loyal," and the triplet figuration added to the opening melody on its return is exquisite. In the closing movement, the jig-like rhythm is engrossing and there is an intriguing passage with unusual bell-like chords. The afore-mentioned harmonic twist finds its ultimate destiny near the close. Overall, this is a superb concerto with lots of excitement, feeling, subtlety and flawless continuity! For both works the CPO recording with Klaus Helwig and the Northwest German PO conducted by Alun Francis would be a good place to start.


----------



## Roger Knox

erroneus post


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Piano Concerto No. 2_ in E Minor, op. 120 (1872) by *Carl Reinecke* is more conservative in form and harmony than the later ones, right from the piano's opening cadential pattern. There is a strong Schumann flavor but also Reinecke's typical craftsmanship in elegant figuration and contrasts in articulation. The Andantino begins with exchanges between piano and winds of half-staccato (_portato_) chords. Later the composer lets his hair down with a broad, declamatory minor-key orchestral melody supported by piano arpeggios into the bass register, cimbalom-style. In the Finale, marked _allegro brilliante_, colourful key-changes, rapid right-hand figuration, and plentiful cross-rhythms make for an exciting movement.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Carl Reinecke's* _Piano Concerto No. 1_ in F#-Minor, op. 72 (1860) has the passion and variety needed for success in this genre. I've listened to it many times, with no end in sight . . . In the first movement, the anxious opening and use of thick lower register textures may suggest Brahms but Reinecke is already his own man here. Wide-ranging figuration with octave shifts characterizes the second theme area. A recap in the major key leads to a magnificent coda. The Adagio is characterized by a beautiful solo cello melody and the quick contrast of major and minor chord forms. The melody returns in dialogue with the piano, and later on the violin; finally the high register piano becomes a "heavenly harp." The Finale is a bravura virtuoso movement with something of an upbeat march feel.
For Concertos 1 and 2, I again prefer the Helwig & Francis version, which may be hard to find, though. It has warmer sound than the 1989 Gerald Robbins; Monte Carlo Opera Orchestra/van Remoortel version on Genesis.


----------



## Roger Knox

The_ Konzertstueke for Piano and Orchestra in G Minor_, op. 33 (1848) by *Carl Reinecke* is a sectional piece showing Reinecke's facility with all areas of compositional and pianistic craft. As a forerunner of his four piano concertos, it demonstrates where he was coming from before he had developed his own voice (to the full I think in Concerto No. 3!). The themes are conventional and their working out would make it an effective piece in performance, though it is seldom heard. A recording by Jordi Humet Alsius I've heard online, but am not sure whether it is available. There is also the interesting-looking _Rondo Brilliante_ with five romantic piano-orchestra rondos played by Joshua Pierce; Slovak State PO/Bystrik Rezucka on MSR Classics (2006) that can be purchased as a download, but I haven't heard it.

In closing, my Reinecke concerto preferences are No. 3 first, then No. 1 -- but all the piano and orchestra works are worth hearing. Happy listening!


----------



## MusicSybarite

Earlier today I listened to the Urspruch's Symphony in E flat major. It foreshadows late-Romantic works, not being a proper one. I say this chiefly because of the harmony and the conservative language. The symphony is nice, well-crafted, life-affirming. The defect I detect is that it's not memorable, the themes/melodies are not that striking. I see it rather like a pleasure to wallow in.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Earlier today I listened to the Urspruch's Symphony in E flat major. The symphony is nice, well-crafted, life-affirming.


I'm with you on this work!


----------



## cougarjuno

I'm wondering what posters think of the Adolf von Henselt piano concerto. Some very nice passages, though it hasn't totally engaged me.


----------



## Roger Knox

cougarjuno said:


> Listened to Ewald Sträßer's Symphony No. 2 ... I see his piano concerto is recorded also so I might give that a listen ...


Cougarjuno,

Do you know of any source selling *Ewald Sträßer's* Piano Concerto -- I couldn't find it on AkivMusic, Prestoclassical, or Amazon, only on YT. I like it very much.


----------



## Roger Knox

cougarjuno said:


> I'm wondering what posters think of the Adolf von Henselt piano concerto. Some very nice passages, though it hasn't totally engaged me.


Thanks, cougarjuno.

The Piano Concerto in F minor, Op. 16 (1847) by *Adolf von Henselt (1814-89)* is important in the line of piano virtuoso-composer works. It's a bit early for this thread as there are no composers born before 1820 included but I appreciate your mentioning it, and it does suggest thinking about what we might do later on.


----------



## bachstreet boys

MusicSybarite said:


> Earlier today I listened to the Urspruch's Symphony in E flat major. It foreshadows late-Romantic works, not being a proper one. I say this chiefly because of the harmony and the conservative language. The symphony is nice, well-crafted, life-affirming. The defect I detect is that it's not memorable, the themes/melodies are not that striking. I see it rather like a pleasure to wallow in.


I just gave this a listen and I enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing! Do you have any recommendations in terms of recordings? I could only find Northwest German Philharmonic Orchestra with Georg Fritzsch on Spotify, but would love to hear other recordings.


----------



## Roger Knox

bachstreet boys said:


> Do you have any recommendations in terms of recordings? I could only find Northwest German Philharmonic Orchestra with Georg Fritzsch on Spotify, but would love to hear other recordings.


I don't know any other recordings but I think this one is very good, and the piano soloist Oliver Triendl has done excellent versions of a number of neglected late Romantic German concertos.


----------



## MusicSybarite

bachstreet boys said:


> I just gave this a listen and I enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing! Do you have any recommendations in terms of recordings? I could only find Northwest German Philharmonic Orchestra with Georg Fritzsch on Spotify, but would love to hear other recordings.


Glad you enjoyed it. It's the only recording that exists along with his Piano Concerto.


----------



## Roger Knox

Moving on with neglected German and Austrian composers of piano concertos and concertante works who were born 1850-1974, the only _non-neglected_ one I have found is *Richard Strauss (1864-1949)* whose _Burleske_ (1894, rev. 1900) appears fairly frequently. I enjoy especially Martha Argerich's interpretations because in addition to spirit and flashy technique she conveys the piece's humour well. There are also Strauss's less-played left-hand works, which I'll come back to in another post. To my knowledge Arnold Schoenberg is the earliest-born (1874) of the German/Austrian modernist composers of piano concertos. Otherwise, these are the composers born 1850-1974 whose piano concertos I find particularly rewarding:

*F. X. Scharwenka* (4)
*Anton Urspruch*
*Ludwig Thuille*
*Emil von Sauer* (2)
*Eugen d'Albert* (2)
*Ewald Straesser*
*Hans Pfitzner*
*Paul Graener*
*Max Reger*
*Franz Schmidt* (Variations, for L.H.)


----------



## Roger Knox

The Piano Concerto in D Major (1886) by *Ludwig Thuille (1861-1907)* is conservative, in the Brahms orbit and excellently crafted; from the opening of the first movement I found the progression of phrases satisfying. The development section begins with a surprise -- a slow soliloquy-like piano solo. In the recapitulation Thuille deploys counterpoint to his second theme well, and the whole builds to a joyous, fleet-fingered close. It is unfortunate that the Adagio begins with a familiar note sequence sounding like the middle section of Chopin's Scherzo No. 3 in C# Minor for piano, but it moves on quickly to other attractive material. The Finale has deft piano figuration and a very good fugato.

Once again Oliver Triendl is a great soloist, this time with the Haydn Orchestra of Bolzano and Trento/Alun Francis on CPO. The work is coupled with Thuille's Symphony in F Major; this is a good pairing if you can find it. Incidentally Thuille was born in what was then Bozen, South Tyrol, Austria but now is Bolzano, Alto Adige, Italy.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Ewald Straesser's (1867-1933)* Piano Concerto, Op. 8 in E Minor (1897) is not well-known, yet to me it's delightful -- conservative and beautifully orchestrated, with a balance of tender romantic passages and assertive heroic ones. In the opening movement his arpeggio- and solid-chord-filled piano writing is unsophisticated. But the interaction between piano and orchestra becomes interesting, for example in the second movement's opening where the piano picks up on the enigmatic orchestra motif to engage in dialogue. In the Scherzo and Trio the influence of German/Austrian folk music emerges, with crafty interplay between piano and winds and a rustic _laendler_-like Trio section followed by the Scherzo's return with graceful piano decoration over the themes. A puzzling note advises that the fourth and final movement is "missing" -- from the score or the recording?

Oliver Triendl is the excellent soloist with the Symphonic Orchestra of the North German Radio/Klaus Tennstedt (likely Werner Andreas Albert actually). It's on YT but where is it available for purchase?


----------



## Roger Knox

The four-movement Piano Concerto No. 2 by *Emil von Sauer (1862-1942)* is an advance from No. 1 (see post #205). The first movement is on a large scale, with a slow introduction and somewhat episodic feel. Clarinet is featured and the piano writing is attractive as usual with von Sauer. High-register staccato piano is effective in the lightning-fast scherzo, followed by a traditional trio with drone bass. The slow movement is lyrical and evocative with sophisticated harmonization and piano figuration. The finale takes a while to get going, but its march-like opening evolves into exciting triplet passage-work. Altogether a graceful and highly-likeable work played fluently by Oleg Marshev and the Aarhus SO/James Loughran on Danecord.


----------



## Roger Knox

Update: At this point, I've identified 30 piano concertos or concertante works worth listening to by late-romantic/post-romantic German & Austrian composers. In fact, there are more that are worth listening to. Brahms and Strauss are the only composers in this thread's category to have piano & orchestra works in the main repertoire. Some commentators assume that leadership in piano concerto-writing passed to Russia and Eastern Europe in the late 19th-early 20th centuries. But I support the idea that Germany and Austria remained "major players" well into the 20th century. Lets hope we'll get to hear these works more often!

Thanks to everyone who's sent posts or likes since we moved into the piano concerto area. Recently I've learned more about the "Romantic Revival," and in 2018 it's 50 years since the noted festival at Butler University, Indiana. Certainly I'm enthusiastic about this area, and find it distressing that the 3 idiosyncratic Brahms and Strauss works, great as they are, remain so predominant.


----------



## Roger Knox

The Piano Concerto No. 1 in B Minor, Op. 2 (1884) by *Eugen d'Albert(1864-1932)* is a prodigious accomplishment by the 20-year-old virtuoso. The key of B-, and the work's cyclic form through 5 linked movements, both acknowledge the influence of Liszt. Commanding piano writing, imaginative harmony and effective orchestration characterize the opening movement. Its thematic material is varied with a expressive, measured build-up in the slow movement, and recurs in the middle one. Things really take of in the staggering cadenza which concludes with an amazingly dissonant fugue. The energy continues in a lightning-fast finale in B Major. Perhaps the work is end-heavy as it seems to dwell too much on similar ideas through movements 1-3, but there are many wonderful things in this work.

D'Albert's one-movement Piano Concerto No. 2, Op. 12 (1893) is still better! -- shorter and more concentrated, with excellent melodies. There are four connected sections: (1) a romantic opening; (2) a beautiful lyrical slow section; (3) a great scherzo featuring high-register flutes and piano in short syncopated gestures, joined later by muted strings; (4) a finale that culminates with a massive climax.

I listened to No. 1 played by Joseph Banowetz and the Moscow SO/Dmitri Yablonsky, on a Naxos release together with No. 2 and the overture to d'Albert's opera _Esther_. For No. 2 I heard Karl-Andreas Kolly with the Barcelona SO/Ronald Zollman on Pan Classics, a 2015 release of performances recorded in 1993 and 1995 that also includes d'Albert's Piano Concerto No. 1, Cello Concerto, and Symphony. There also recordings by Piers Lane and Earl Wild. All of the afore-mentioned soloists are fine, but my favourite is still super-virtuoso Michael Ponti and the Orchestra of Radio Luxembourg/Pierre Cao, originally in a VoxBox, no. 4 in the Romantic Piano Concerto series. His panache, using varied accentuation and articulation, is wonderful in this music!


----------



## Roger Knox

The Piano Concerto in E-Flat Major, Op. 33 (1921) by *Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949)* is significant; it is a very difficult work that was premiered by a virtuoso of genius: Walter Gieseking. Employing non-standard and constantly changing figuration in both hands, the piano part is more bass-oriented than usual with its deep wells of sound and thick earthy sonorities. The first movement, whose opening the composer indicated to be played "pompously," opens with simple pounding triads but later the harmony becomes more complex emphasizing non-chord notes. The following scherzo features triplet chords with interplay between piano and winds.

The best movement is a pensive slow lament (following upon World War I) with delicate piano figuration in the high register. An ingenious finale begins in march tempo marked by unpredictable accents and syncopations, and closes with a surprising fugue and return of first movement material. The four-movement structure is that of a symphonic concerto. On the political side I have made some comments about Pfitzner in previous posts #62 & #66. A recording is available with Tsimon Barto;Christian Thielemann/Dresden Staatskapelle on Naxos.


----------



## Roger Knox

A work of tremendous proportions is *Max Reger's (1873-1916)* great Piano Concerto in F-Minor (1910). With its repeated changing of key and tempo it presents to me the sense of a big fire(!), but actually is acknowledged by Reger as a three-movement symphonic concerto along the lines of the Brahms D-Minor. Virtuosity in many dimensions is demanded from the opening, including rapid changes of dynamics but also very fine control in such places as the second theme. And the second movement is exquisitely sensitive and deep, including fragments of chorales.

The finale starts with a piano solo that treads heavily, at times like a demented march, leading later to triplets alternating with slower episodes. Of a number of recordings, the classic performance is on YT by Rudolph Serkin; Philadelphia Orchestra/Ormandy. It is wonderfully paced over long time-spans; I believe there are some cuts. I also like Marc-André Hamelin; Berlin RSO/Volkov on Hyperion (2011).


----------



## Roger Knox

The Piano Concerto in E-Flat Major for Left Hand (1934) by *Franz Schmidt (1874-1939)* has an authoritative voice and features lots of contrast. In the first movement the composer's craftsmanship shows in the way he neatly dovetails the left-hand piano with the orchestral instruments. Also there is ingenious counterpoint, sustaining much interest even though stylistically the work is more conservative than Schmidt's contemporaneous Symphony No. 2. A charming and tender Viennese slow movement is in the rhythm and tempo of a lullaby. The finale has a jaunty, toe-tapping theme in 6/8 time with irregular 4- + 5-measure phrasing that helps avoid squareness. After considerable imitative development, a cadenza passage from the first movement recurs with variation. The work is a bit long but nevertheless a success; a recording by Karl-Andreas Kolly; Vienna Youth Orchestra/Herbert Böck is available as a 2014 release.

The following concertante work is not to be confused with the Piano Concerto: Schmidt's Concert Variations on a Theme of Beethoven for Piano Left-Hand (1924). It is based on a Beethoven scherzo theme and consists of a slow and a fast movement. The piece is short and much more conventional than Schmidt's major compositions in variation form.


----------



## Jacck

what about Ferdinand Hiller?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Hiller
I found his piano quintet to be excellent


----------



## Eramire156

A CD by one of *Franz Schmidt's* composition students, some say his favorite *Walter Bricht* has just been released by *Toccata Classics*, snippets can be heard online, based on what I heard I ordered the CD, you can download the booklet as well.

https://toccataclassics.com/product/walter-bricht-orchestral-music-volume-one/

Cheers


----------



## Roger Knox

Although *Richard Strauss (1864-1949)* is hardly a neglected composer his _Parergon zur Symphonia Domestica_, Op. 73 (1924) and _Panathenänzug_, Op. 74 (1927) -- both Paul Wittgenstein commissions for piano left hand and orchestra -- are seldom played. One hearing is not enough to "get" these works, but I find after reading program notes and listening again they become very intriguing. Richard Strauss usually tried to do something new in the genre he was composing in, and that is true of these pieces as well as the earlier _Burleske _for piano and orchestra. Gary Graffman's performance of the _Parergon _on YT is splendid.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Joseph Marx (1882-1964)* wrote two concertos for piano and orchestra: No.1, the _Romantic_ (1919-20); and No. 2, _Castelli romani_ (1930). The _Romantic Concerto _is in three movements along the lines of a traditional concerto: the work is a large conception that requires power and endurance from the soloist. Writing for both piano and orchestra is very lush and conveys a kind of Straussian triumph and joy, especially in the outer movements. A minor-key song played by winds and strings that seems to evoke ancient times starts the slow movement. The piano continues with ornamentation and filigree that later becomes polyphonic. Finally there is a dancelike tarantella followed by a chordal section from which a middle-eastern melody emerges on clarinet and oboe, reminding me of a passage in Marx's _Autumn Symphony_. There is a fine recording featuring David Lively; Bochum SO/Stephen Sloane on Hyperion. The performance by Jorge Bolet; New York Philharmonic/Zubin Mehta on YT is transcendent, though. Bolet's playing is tremendously expansive and confident in this difficult work requiring large hands (five-note chords and wide-spanned figuration), while Mehta derives warm tone from the strings.

In _Castelli romani_ the Allegro (Villa Hadriana) opens with pentatonic melodies suggesting nature, and has an improvisational character. The very attractive Andante (Tusculum) begins with the piano's organum-like solo and later moves into passages reminiscent of French impressionism, an important influence on Marx. The closing three-part finale (Frascati) starts and ends in fast 6/8 time, sounding like Italian popular or folk song; a slow middle section begins orchestrally resembling mist rising, and is followed by Neapolitan melody with variations. The work is on the CD noted above with David Lively and the Bochum SO.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Hear This!!! It's up for only 11 more days!* From the London Proms Sept. 1, on BBC I-Radio: Superb performance of the Franz Schmidt 4th Symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic/Kirill Petrenko at

www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/p06k8gk0

See Templeton's review at

Latest concerts
Post #1206


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> *Joseph Marx (1882-1964)* wrote two concertos for piano and orchestra: No.1, the _Romantic_ (1919-20); and No. 2, _Castelli romani_ (1930). The _Romantic Concerto _is in three movements along the lines of a traditional concerto: the work is a large conception that requires power and endurance from the soloist. Writing for both piano and orchestra is very lush and conveys a kind of Straussian triumph and joy, especially in the outer movements. A minor-key song played by winds and strings that seems to evoke ancient times starts the slow movement. The piano continues with ornamentation and filigree that later becomes polyphonic. Finally there is a dancelike tarantella followed by a chordal section from which a middle-eastern melody emerges on clarinet and oboe, reminding me of a passage in Marx's _Autumn Symphony_. There is a fine recording featuring David Lively; Bochum SO/Stephen Sloane on CPO. The performance by Jorge Bolet; New York Philharmonic/Zubin Mehta on YT is transcendent, though. Bolet's playing is tremendously expansive and confident in this difficult work requiring large hands (five-note chords and wide-spanned figuration), while Mehta derives warm tone from the strings.
> 
> In _Castelli romani_ the Allegro (Villa Hadriana) opens with pentatonic melodies suggesting nature, and has an improvisational character. The very attractive Andante (Tusculum) begins with the piano's organum-like solo and later moves into passages reminiscent of French impressionism, an important influence on Marx. The closing three-part finale (Frascati) starts and ends in fast 6/8 time, sounding like Italian popular or folk song; a slow middle section begins orchestrally resembling mist rising, and is followed by Neapolitan melody with variations. The work is on the CD noted above with David Lively and the Bochum SO.


I like very much this review. These concertos are full-blooded romantic, above all the _Eine romantisches Klavierkonzert_ as its title suggests. I have the Hyperion recording and I'm very fond of it.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> These concertos are full-blooded romantic, above all the _Eine romantisches Klavierkonzert_ as its title suggests. I have the Hyperion recording and I'm very fond of it.


Thanks for your comments! You're right it's on Hyperion not CPO, and I've re-edited my post accordingly.


----------



## Roger Knox

The sprightly Piano Concerto (1947) by *Hans Gal (1890-1987)* is quite different than the works discussed recently. It combines late Romantic and neo-classical features with clear themes, interesting counterpoint, and transparent orchestration. The beginning resembles slightly Ravel's G-Major Piano Concerto, with a beautifully-crafted melody. The slow movement is affecting, lyrical, and pensive. It does not break new ground but harmony and phrasing are polished. The finale is lighter and more sentimental than previous movements and has a waltz towards the close. There is a recent accomplished recording by Sarah Beth Briggs; Royal Northern Orchestra/Kenneth Woods on Toccata Classics.


----------



## Roger Knox

It is notable that the first of Paul Wittgenstein's commissioned piano concertos for the left-hand was written as early as 1921 by *Erich Korngold (1897-1957)*. Post-Romantic and dramatic in style, it consists of one extended sectional movement. The piano part is noble and well-conceived, while the orchestration is original and striking. The remarkable composer carries on melodic development with an eye to the long line and his harmony is convincing. An effective contrast is made between the grand opening and closing sections and the more thoughtful, then livelier middle ones. Hear Howard Shelley; BBC PO/Matthias Bamert.


----------



## Roger Knox

As the Northern Hemisphere moves into autumn, my time for listening and commenting is becoming sparse. So I'm going to stop here with the *Korngold* as the last Piano Concerto commentary on "Neglected German and Austrian Orchestral Composers ...." There will be some more posts to wrap up this stage of the thread. Your comments, ideas, or new information are welcome on piano concertos and on orchestral music as well.

There are interesting new recordings of string concertos from this era! Originally I was going to continue with Concertos for String and Other Instruments, but now I'd like to ask if there are others who could keep the thread going and complete the overview. It could be names of works and recordings or more than that. I would help with outlines and recordings information though I might not listen to all the works. As for orchestral song and/or choral music with orchestra, I suggest they would be better on a different thread -- this one is pretty large and complex already!

Many thanks to all of you for your Likes and contributions; the best part of this is connecting to people with the same enthusiasm! Let's keep in touch.


----------



## Roger Knox

1. Here are the composers of late-romantic/post-romantic piano concertos born 1875-1900 that have been mentioned above:

*Joseph Marx
Hans Gal
Erich Korngold*

Also I like *Hanns Wolf's* piano concerto very much!

2. Modernist composers after *Arnold Schoenberg (b. 1874)* of piano concertos born 1875-1900 include:

*Alban Berg (Concerto for Violin, Piano and 13 Instruments)
Egon Wellesz
Ernst Toch
Paul Hindemith
Ernst Krenek*

3. Two composers of wonderful piano concertos in a "light-classical" vein are:

*Edward Kuenneke
Mitja Nikisch*

More names to come -- please add any you know!


----------



## MusicSybarite

I have some to add:

Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949) - Piano concerto in E flat major, Op. 31

Julius Weismann (1879-1950) - Piano concerto No. 2 (I don't know if there is a recording of the No. 1)

Franz Schmidt (1874-1939) - Piano concerto for the left hand in E flat major

Karl Weigl (1881-1949) - Piano concerto for the left hand in E flat major

Walter Braunfels (1882-1954) - Piano concerto, Op. 21

Wilhelm Furtwängler (1886-1954) - Piano concerto in B minor (this is a mammoth lasting more than 1 hour!!)

Ernst Toch (1887-1964) - Piano concerto, Op. 38; Symphony for piano and orchestra, Op. 61

Joseph Suder (1892-1980) - Piano concerto with obbligato clarinet

Viktor Ullmann (1898-1944) - Piano concerto, Op. 25

Ernst Pepping (1901-1981) - Piano concerto

Boris Blacher (1903-1975) - Piano concerto No. 1, Op. 28; Piano concerto No. 2, Op. 42

Franz Reizenstein (1911-1968) - Piano concerto No. 2 in F major (in this case I don't know the existence of a recording of the No. 1 either)


----------



## Templeton

Finally, the full recording of Joseph Marx's 'Eine Herbstsymphonie'. Enjoy!


----------



## joen_cph

Maybe-maybe they were mentioned earlier, but there´s also:

a Fantasy by* Franz Schmidt* 




four concertos by *Franz Xaver Scharwenka* 




a Konzertstück by *Johann Cilensek* (a nice work) 




a concerto by *Paul Pabst* 




two concertos by *Hermann Goetz* 




a concerto by *Bernhard Stavenhagen* 




a concerto by *Gottfried von Einem* 




two concertos by *Emil von Sauer* 




Chromaticon by *Josef Hofmann*


----------



## Roger Knox

Templeton said:


> Finally, the full recording of Joseph Marx's 'Eine Herbstsymphonie'. Enjoy!


And with the score -- awesome! Thank you.


----------



## Templeton

Roger Knox said:


> And with the score -- awesome! Thank you.


Actually, apologies because I've just recalled that you sent me a link to the full recording back in April. However, as you said, this one does have the score, so glad that you have found it beneficial.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> I have some to add:


Thanks! -- some of these are new to me and I look forward to checking them out.


----------



## Roger Knox

joen_cph said:


> Maybe-maybe they were mentioned earlier, but there´s also:
> 
> a concerto by *Bernhard Stavenhagen*


Some of the list I've heard and some not -- thank you! Though not well-known, at least in North America, the Stavenhagen is a fine, well-crafted work.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Hello there! Coming in very late in this discussion, and only looked at 1st and last page of posts. Just recently, I stumbled on to this guy: Franz Schreker (1878-1934), mainly an opera composer, reminds me of R. Strauss and Mahler. He was apparently very famous at the beginning of the 20th century. Very atmospheric music to my ears


----------



## Roger Knox

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hello there! Coming in very late in this discussion, and only looked at 1st and last page of posts. Just recently, I stumbled on to this guy: Franz Schreker (1878-1934), mainly an opera composer, reminds me of R. Strauss and Mahler. He was apparently very famous at the beginning of the 20th century. Very atmospheric music to my ears


Yes, Schreker's orchestration and expressionist idiom are pretty unique!  As with Zemlinsky he didn't actually make the move into atonality, though. I've noticed that some of his operas have been revived fairly recently.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> There are interesting new recordings of string concertos from this era! Originally I was going to continue with Concertos for String and Other Instruments, but now I'd like to ask if there are others who could keep the thread going and complete the overview. It could be names of works and recordings or more than that. I would help with outlines and recordings information though I might not listen to all the works. As for orchestral song and/or choral music with orchestra, I suggest they would be better on a different thread -- this one is pretty large and complex already!


For over a month no one's taken up the above-described challenge. So, over to Plan B: "Carry on regardless." Moving into a colder season I'm ready for listening up to the incomparable violin with its warm romantic melodies and virtuosic fireworks -- and hope you are too. Here goes with *Neglected Late Romantic German and Austrian Concertos for String and Other Instruments*, beginning with the violin.

For composers born 1820-49 the standard rep includes *Brahms's Violin Concerto in D Minor* and *Double Concerto for Violin and Cello in A Minor*. Also frequently heard are *Bruch's Violin Concerto No. 1 in G Minor* and *Scottish Fantasy for Violin and Orchestra*.

But that's it -- in my view Bruch's other violin concertos and concertante works are neglected at least in live performance, as are such works by other composers. Fortunately recordings are taking up the slack. _Please _don't be strangers, and remain forthcoming with suggestions; comments on orchestral and piano concerto repertoire are still welcome too.


----------



## mbhaub

Here's something new and completely unexpected:








He was a student of Franz Schmidt and you can really hear it. Many times you hear orchestration and harmonic processes right out of Schmidt's symphonies. I've listened to this several times now, and the music is quite ephemeral - it takes multiple listens to soak in and make sense. The symphony is no undiscovered masterpiece. Seems to go nowhere. Nonetheless, very interesting and if you're into late-Romantic Viennese composition it's almost essential. The orchestra seems ok, but I can imagine more exciting conducting.


----------



## Roger Knox

Below are some significant neglected composers of violin concertos and concertante works born 1820-1849. A couple of surprises here -- to be continued:

*Joachim Raff
Carl Reinecke
Albert Dietrich
Karl Goldmark
Felix Draeseke*
Max Bruch**
Friedrich Gernsheim*

* Only the Violin-Piano Score is extant.
** See Post #266 above.


----------



## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Here's something new and completely unexpected: . . . He was a student of Franz Schmidt and you can really hear it. Many times you hear orchestration and harmonic processes right out of Schmidt's symphonies. I've listened to this several times now, and the music is quite ephemeral - it takes multiple listens to soak in and make sense. The symphony is no undiscovered masterpiece. Seems to go nowhere. Nonetheless, very interesting and if you're into late-Romantic Viennese composition it's almost essential. The orchestra seems ok, but I can imagine more exciting conducting.


Re Walter Bricht: I did my master's degree at Indiana University in the mid-1970's. By then Walter Bricht had died and seemed forgotten. I did meet his friend Walter Robert, a cultured, distinguished teacher of piano accompaniment and history of keyboard music. He was elderly yet studying Ancient Greek (!) to read the lyric poets in the original. I was acquainted also with Paul Martin who wrote his dissertation on Bricht. Of Bricht I learned nothing, so now it's -- better late than never. A general comment about my university years is that really I would have loved to hear many of the teachers speak about their own fascinating lives and careers, the world they grew up in and the people they knew -- much more interesting than stereotypical survey courses.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Below are some significant neglected composers of violin concertos and concertante works born 1820-1849. A couple of surprises here -- to be continued:
> 
> *Joachim Raff
> Carl Reinecke
> Albert Dietrich
> Karl Goldmark
> Felix Draeseke*
> Max Bruch**
> Friedrich Gernsheim*
> 
> * Only the Violin-Piano Score is extant.
> ** See Post #266 above.


Concerning the violin concertos of *Joachim Raff* and *Carl Reinecke*, a few brief comments:

- there are nineteenth century "soloistic" concertos and symphonic concertos. Raff's are soloistic, the Brahms concerto symphonic, others are a bit of both. Not all concertos are judged by symphonic concerto criteria.
- no full-length books on concertos I know mention Raff or Reinecke; revival of their violin concertos is through musicological work on Raff, fine recordings of both composers, and YT plus classical web sites including TC. 
- some commentators aren't impressed by these works but I am and will explain why. To be continued.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Joachim Raff's* early works for violin and orchestra include _Morceau de concert: Le fée d'amour_, Op. 67, in A Minor (1854) and _Suite for Solo Violin and Orchestra_, Op. 180, in G Minor (1853). The three-movement Concert-Piece is fascinating. Its first movement has a fantasy atmosphere with suggestions of tiny folk in soft, busy high-register strings and winds. The exceptional slow movement opens with a gorgeous melody that returns later in octaves. Particularly notable in the finale are its harmonic adventures and effective, challenging cadenza. In an older style harmonically speaking, the _Suite_ is a high-powered technical tour-de-force, with the Minuet theme stated in quadruple stops while the galloping Corrente features tough spiccato bowing; three of its five movements are in perpetual motion.

Raff's _Violin Concerto No. 1_, Op. 185 in B Minor (1871-2) was dedicated to violinist August Wilhelmj. It is a soloist's concerto that opens nobly; the violin writing is idiomatic but difficult. The middle movement is expressive and song-like, maintaining an intimate mood except for the middle section which is more active. In the finale Raff has chosen a more popular path with a rousing, upbeat march that tests the violinist's virtuosity with octaves and thirds towards the close. At first I found this the weakest movement, but seeing the work now as a 19th-century soloist's concerto makes this finale seem appropriate at least.

All of the above works appear on a fine recording by Torstein Ringborg, violin, with the Opera Orchestra of the Norrlands (Sweden) conducted by Angela Quinn, Sterling Records, 2008. There is another excellent performance of the first concerto on Tudor Records with Michaela Petsch-Neftel and the Bamberg Symphony/Hans Stadlmaier (2006), followed by _Violin Concerto No. 2_, Op. 206 in A Minor (1877) plus two short pieces. I have seen this recording off, on and off the Internet and managed to get just one hearing. The brilliant second concerto was written for Pablo Sarasate who did not perform it. Certainly it is soloistic; in the first movement there are only a few passages where the violinist does not play. Again there is an excellent slow movement featuring interaction between the winds and with the soloist. The final allegro is lighter in tone as in the first concerto. The two shorter pieces are orchestrations of "Ungrischer" (Hungarian Dance, Op. 203, no. 5, 1876) and the deservedly famous _Cavatina_, Op. 85, no. 3 (1859, arr. Singer). Incidentally *Salamon Jadassohn* also wrote an appealing violin-and-orchestra _Cavatina_, Op. 69 (1889).


----------



## Roger Knox

Like Joachim Raff *Carl Reinecke* (1824-1910) was prolific, but he differed in temperament. While Raff innovated in harmony and compositional concepts, Reinecke continued in the line from early German Romantics and later was influenced by Brahms. His _Violin Concerto_, Op. 141 in G Minor (1877), conventional in form, I find attractive and well-orchestrated. It was premiered by no less an artist than Joseph Joachim. The peaceful, lyrical second movement is particularly good; its gentle rocking in 9/8 time suggests a cradle or boat (barcarolle?). In the finale the opening motif inherited from the previous movement is varied but it becomes somewhat repetitive. Yet in the terrific coda there is a sense of high drama and here Reinecke is at his craftsmanly best. Violinist Ingolf Turban is a first-rate soloist on the CPO recording by the Bern SO/Johannes Moesus. Also included are Reinecke's two _Romances_ for Violin and Orchestra; the short one in E Minor, Op. 93 (1867) is a source of possible confusion as it is the same work with the same opus number as the overture to the composer's opera _König Manfred_. I especially like the _Romance_, Op. 155 in A Minor (1879), which is in the neighbourhood of ten minutes long like the violin-orchestra Romances by Bruch and Reger. It shows the influence of gypsy music, for example in the opening motif's raised 4th scale degree.

It would be nice to hear one of these works by Raff or Reinecke (in addition to Raff's _Cavatina_) show up at an orchestra concert. In the meantime at least we have good options on record.


----------



## Roger Knox

I imagine some violinists haven't played *Karl Goldmark's* (1830-1915) _Violin Concerto_, op. 28 (1877) simply to avoid the comment "when I heard Milstein play it ... ." Nathan Milstein's performance the work was transcendent, so please hear it if you haven't. It is a very difficult concerto, and Exhibit A for the point that great soloist's concertos like this one are of a different kind than symphonic ones like Brahms's. It has been taken up by Ihtzak Perlman, Sarah Chang, Hilary Hahn, and others so maybe isn't really "neglected" at all; I'll leave judgement about performers to people who know the violin better than me. As a work it's better in my opinion than Bruch's No. 1, strong all the way through with a passionate slow movement and brilliant finale -- and it displays penetrating knowledge of the instrument. Bravo, Karl!


----------



## Roger Knox

The full score score for the _Violin Concerto_ (1881) by *Felix Draeseke* (1835-1913) sadly was lost between 1941-45 but a violin-piano reduction exists. It is worth listening to -- all three movements have something to offer and I particularly like the last movement's saltarello, which has some interesting metre changes. (Draeseke heard this dance on a visit to Ischia -- between Italy and Croatia -- and, based on nothing but speculation, could there have been some Slavic influence on the music he heard?). This work is appealing and not "heavy" like his piano concerto.


----------



## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> It would be nice to hear one of these works by Raff or Reinecke (in addition to Raff's _Cavatina_) show up at an orchestra concert. In the meantime at least we have good options on record.


Come to Arizona this spring. The Musica Nova Orchestra will be presenting the Reinecke 2nd symphony. The info is HERE. And the Bruckner 00 on the same concert! In the past, they've played Raff (the 9th) and other rarities. Lot of fun.


----------



## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Come to Arizona this spring. The Musica Nova Orchestra will be presenting the Reinecke 2nd symphony. The info is HERE. And the Bruckner 00 on the same concert! In the past, they've played Raff (the 9th) and other rarities. Lot of fun.


What a great post! Thanks for introducing me to this festival. Three intriguing concerts and the Reinecke premiere is overdue.

On the topic of Bruckner: Recently I acquired this year's recording on the Profil label of his _String Quintet in F Major_ arranged by Gerd Schaller for large orchestra, along with Bruckner's early _Overture in G Minor_. I really like the no-bells-and-whistles arrangement of the quintet and the performance by the Prague Radio Symphony Orchestra/cond. Schaller is excellent.


----------



## Roger Knox

*The concertos and concertante works for violin and orchestra by Max Bruch (1838-1920)*:

post to follow


----------



## Roger Knox

erroneus ............................... post


----------



## Roger Knox

Among the concertos and concertante works for violin and orchestra by *Max Bruch (1838-1920)*, the _Concerto No. 1_ (1867) and the _Scottish Fantasy_ (1880) are hardly neglected. Recordings of _Concerto No. 1_ number well into the hundreds, by everyone from emerging violinists to legendary masters (Jascha Heifetz's versions of _Concerto Nos. 1_, _No. 2_ [1878] and the _Scottish Fantasy_ are still considered the best by many.) Yet we still need to consider _Concerto No. 2_ and _No. 3_ (1891), the three concertante pieces _Adagio appassionato_, _Romance_, and _In Memoriam_, the _Serenade_ (1900) and the _Konzertstueck for Violin and Orchestra_ (1911) as under-recognized compositions.

I'm one of those for whom the three concertos progress compositionally. From the start the composer enlisted the assistance of more than one top violinist: Joseph Joachim premiered the First and Pablo de Sarasate the Second. The engaging melodies and progressing excitement throughout the First's opening movement are sure winners, but there are details too. The beloved second theme's supporting lines interlock effectively to prolonging the expectant opening chord through to its resolution (the "long-desired kiss," perhaps)? From such immediate attractiveness, the tendency in Bruch is to develop longer-range formal effectiveness as in the Second and more so in the long, least-played Third, a symphonic concerto like Brahms's.

As for recordings post-Heifetz, I recently bought the Salvatore Accardo; Gewandhausorchester/Kurt Masur set of the three concertos with the Serenade, and am pleased by the soliost's virtuosity and the orchestra's sound. The more recent James Ehnes; Montreal SO/Dutoit recording of Nos. 1 and 3 is majestic! Other Bruch violin-orchestra works to follow . . .


----------



## Roger Knox

More works for violin and orchestra by *Max Bruch* (I hope this will be clear!):

Along with the _Scottish Fantasy_ and concertos, the _Serenade_, op. 75 (1900) and the _Konzertstueck_ for Violin and Orchestra, op. 84 (1911) both might be described as "concerto-like;" Bruch actually described the former as a "concerto in the form of a serenade." This four-movement composition is lighter in character than the concertos. The opening movement is based on a Nordic folk tune that returns at the work's end; the second movement is a scherzo, the third a Nocturne whose melody is reminiscent of "Auld Rob Morris," the finale seguidilla-like with pizzicato strings evoking guitars. The _Konzertstueck_ is the last of Bruch's violin-orchestra works, with an exciting allegro opening followed by a long, slow denouément that I fancy to be Bruch's swan-song to the medium. Especially good in my opinion are three shorter single-movement works: _Romanze_, op. 42 in A Minor (1874); _Adagio appassionata_, op. 57, in F# Minor (1891); and _In Memoriam_, op. 65, in D Minor (1893). Some commentators are condescending to these lyrical, expressive works, but they are not formulaic and Bruch was always innovating in both formal structure and mood.

Correction to previous post -- the recording is _Bruch: The Complete Violin Concertos; Scottish Fantasy_. Salvatore Accardo; Gewandhausorchester/Kurt Masur. Recorded 1977-78 on Decca; release on 2 CD's by Phillips, 1998. As for the other works and more recent recordings, there are a number of choices depending on whether one wants the complete works or selected ones, and on one's preferred violinists and orchestras/conductors. Best of luck -- onward and upward with Bruch!


----------



## Roger Knox

Correction to Post #279:
"The beloved second theme's supporting lines interlock effectively to prolonging the expectant opening chord through to its resolution ..." This statement refers to the 2nd movement's second theme, not the 1st's.

There's no break between the 1st and 2nd movements, but the second (Adagio) is in triple time while the first is in 4. As the second movement continues, there are intricacies of phrasing, of the relation between solo instrument and chorus, and of short motifs that take it far beyond just having "a nice melody."


----------



## Roger Knox

Two of the friends of Brahms we've met before have written wonderful violin concertos. *Albert Dietrich's* _Violin Concerto in D minor_, Op. 30 (1873) is a serious three-movement work by a slightly older Brahms contemporary who deserves attention. There is an excellent recording by Elisabeth Kufferath, violin; Oldenburg State Philharmonic/Alexander Rumpf -- CPO 777314-2 (2008)

*Friedrich Gernsheim's* _Violin Concertos No.1_ (1880) & _No. 2_ (1914) and the _Fantasiestück_, Op. 33 (1875) received an outstanding performance on the fairly recent recording by Linus Roth; Hamburger Symphoniker/Johannes Zurl -- CPO 7778612 (2015). I heard the concertos once before they were taken down, but just listening to the tasters will give a sense of how good they are. The first I find especially appealing.


----------



## Roger Knox

And, two more friends of Brahms:

The _Violin Concerto in A Major_, WoO4 by *Heinrich von Herzogenberg* (1889) has been recorded with expression and excitement and a fine cadenza composed by soloist Ulf Wallin, with the Deutsche RP Saarbrucken Kaiserlautern/Frank Beerman -- CPO 7772802. Its passionate first movement opens with a fine tutti and solo entrance; the second movement's mood is set by a pizzicato opening in the low strings; the finale is best of all: a well-crafted rondo with catchy repeated-note staccatos in the solo violin, winds, and full orchestra. I appreciated the sometimes stormy, turbulent orchestration much more on the second hearing. *Ignaz Brüll's* _Violin Concerto in A Minor_, op. 41 (pub. 1882) was corrected and completed by conductor Michael Laus, and recorded with the Malta PO & reliable soloist Ilya Hofman on Cameo Classics CC9103. I heard this recording only once before it was taken down -- it is a successful work and performance that adds to the distinction of the under-recognized composer.

At this point we've briefly surveyed composers of violin concertos born 1820-1849 and will continue with 1850-1874. There are some other composers whose works I couldn't access. Thanks for reading -- comments and information are always appreciated!


----------



## Roger Knox

There seems to be confusion between *Emil von Reznicek's (1860-1945)* _Concerto in E Minor_ for violin and orchestra and his _Concert Piece (Konzertstück_) for the same combination. If anyone can clarify please do so; I'll continue to to investigate too. In any case, the three-movement _c._26-minute concerto/concert piece(?) is terrific, on the lighter Viennese side with some humourous touches, nothing like as forceful as Ravel's visceral _La Valse_ for orchestra written around the same time. I especially like the opening movement with its lyrical themes and violin flourishes. The slow movement is touching while the last movement's alternating waltz and (?)Slavic boat-song sections are curious (contrasting cultures, social classes?).


----------



## sonance

Roger Knox said:


> There seems to be confusion between *Emil von Reznicek's (1860-1945)* _Concerto in E Minor_ for violin and orchestra and his _Concert Piece (Konzertstück_) for the same combination. If anyone can clarify please do so; I'll continue to to investigate too. In any case, the three-movement _c._26-minute concerto/concert piece(?) is terrific, on the lighter Viennese side with some humourous touches, nothing like as forceful as Ravel's visceral _La Valse_ for orchestra written around the same time. I especially like the opening movement with its lyrical themes and violin flourishes. The slow movement is touching while the last movement's alternating waltz and (?)Slavic boat-song sections are curious (contrasting cultures, social classes?).


I don't know Reznicek's works at all, but a German website with a lot of data concerning his life and compositions says:

On 30 August 1918 Reznicek finished the "Konzertstück" in *E major*, whereas the violin concerto in *E minor* was finished on 30 December 1918.

(source: https://mwmusikverlag.wordpress.com/2018/09/06/reznicek-chronologie-stand-2018/)

The International Music Score Library Project says: "Related to the Concertstück of 1918, but did not remain in that form. According to cpo's notes to their recording of the latter, the composer wasn't satisfied with the concerto until 1940, which is the year he gives for its premiere."

(source: https://imslp.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Reznicek,_Emil_von)


----------



## Roger Knox

sonance said:


> I don't know Reznicek's works at all, but a German website with a lot of data concerning his life and compositions says:
> 
> On 30 August 1918 Reznicek finished the "Konzertstück" in *E major*, whereas the violin concerto in *E minor* was finished on 30 December 1918.
> 
> (source: https://mwmusikverlag.wordpress.com/2018/09/06/reznicek-chronologie-stand-2018/)
> 
> The International Music Score Library Project says: "Related to the Concertstück of 1918, but did not remain in that form. According to cpo's notes to their recording of the latter, the composer wasn't satisfied with the concerto until 1940, which is the year he gives for its premiere."
> 
> (source: https://imslp.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Reznicek,_Emil_von)


Danke sehr, *sonance*! I really appreciate your taking the time to look up the reliable information that you have posted, and especially the link to the excellent German web site (I read German). It is all accurate and agrees with other sources, plus it is more clearly written.

*Konzertstück in E Major* (1918)
I. Allegro moderato
II. Tranquillo - Andante espressivo - Adagio - con espressione - Largo
III. Allegro ma non troppo
Duration - 22:45
Recorded by Sophia Jaffé, violin; Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra/Marcus Bosch; CPO (released 2016)
Available for purchase.

*Violin Concerto in E Minor* (1918), G. 59
I. Allegro molto - Poco meno allegro, pesante - Tranquillo
II. Andante espressivo - Adagio - Andante con espressione - Largo
III. Allegretto con comodo, capricioso
Duration - 26:25
Michael Davis, violin; Philharmonia Hungarica/Gordon Wright
Note: I haven't located a source for this recording, which I think is out-of-print, or for any recording of this work.

My comments in Post 284 apply to the *Concerto in E Minor*, not the *Konzertstück (Concert Piece) in E Major*. As *sonance* says, the Konzertstück was composed first, but both were completed in 1918. At the present time in North America our options are to buy the Konzertstück, or to listen to the Concerto on YT.

Having heard opening segments of the Konzertstück's three movements, I much prefer the Concerto. Let`s hope for a reissue or new recording!


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Violin Concerto in D minor_, Op.8 (1882) by *Richard Strauss (1864-1949)* I had thought to be a neglected work by a not-neglected composer. Nevertheless, by now there have been enough recordings to make the work known to today's listeners, including two recent releases in North America (see below). Unfortunately some discs are no longer listed, e.g. the impressive *Sarah Chang; Bavarian State Opera Orchestra/Sawallisch; EMI*, which can be heard on an upload.

To me this 18-year-old's remarkable work embodies the composer's precocious virtuosity in instrumentation, no doubt assisted by his violinist cousin Benno Walter (who performed the premiere) and by Strauss's own experience playing the instrument. While conservative in form and harmony, the work employs virtuoso violin techniques to the hilt! Noting the instrument's leading sectional role in Strauss's chosen medium -- the orchestra, its solo role in _Ein Heldenleben_, and even its quiet obbligato in the composer's masterful song Morgen, it is certain that the violin had special significance for him. I like the work's boldness in the first movement, the melancholy lyricism of the second, and the bright finale. Recordings released in North America in 2018 (I've heard only the tasters):

Arabella Steinbacher; WDR Symphony Orchestra/Lawrence Foster; Pentatone PTC5186653 (with seven shorter Strauss works arr. for vln. & orch.)

Robert Kowalski; Orchestra della Svizzera italiani/Markus Poschner; on CPO 5551262 (with _Aus Italien_ - Symphonic Fantasy)


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Violin Concerto in B minor_, Op. 34 (1924) by *Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949)* is an accomplished work of which there are several good recordings. Pfitzner's propagandizing for National Socialism and actions in support of the Nazis during World War are well-documented in books and on web sites. They have overshadowed the music itself, for which I'll leave readers to make up their own minds. Reliable recordings include:

Juraj Cizmarovic (violin); WDR Radio Symphony Orchestra, Cologne/Marcus Bosch (conductor). Coviello Classics COV31104 (2009). (Also has Siegfried Wagner's Violin Concerto and Richard Wagner's Träume [Dreams] arranged for violin and orchestra.)

Saschko Gawriloff (violin); Bamberg SO/Werner Andreas Albert; CPO999 079-2 (1990). (Also has Duo for violin, cello and orchestra, and Scherzo in C minor for orchestra. These are on CD4 on a 5CD Pfitzner boxed set.)


----------



## WatchfulRaven

I'm not sure if he's been mentioned earlier in this thread because there is currently twenty pages, but I'm going to mention the German Baroque composer Johann Pachelbel. For many, he wrote the (in)famous _Canon in D_ and…what else? Well, Pachelbel wrote many other works that haven't survived in the repertoire. Heck, that very Canon was originally paired with a lively Gigue which is seldom recorded. Herbert von Karajan did record it, though.

Currently listening to his _Hexachordum Apollinis_, a set of keyboard variations. Pachelbel's contrapuntal style puts emphasis on clarity and is less complicated than, say, that of Bach (no disrespect). I'm enjoying it.


----------



## Eramire156

*2019 Bard Music Festival Korngold*

I noticed yesterday that the 2019 composer to be featured at the 30th Bard Music Festival will be _*Erich Korngold *_, to be held over two weekends in August in upstate New York . No details yet, just save the dates.









August 9-11
August 16-18​


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Violin Concerto_, Op.25 (1910) by *Max von Schillings (1868-1933)* is a long, remarkable postromantic work requiring a high level of virtuosity in the outer Allegro movements, and sustained lyricism in the middle Andante con espressione. In fact, it is in the second theme of the opening movement and in the Andante that the work is most convincing. Von Schillings incorporates harmonic and modulation possibilities in the manor of his colleague Richard Strauss. I think that Strauss sometimes uses gaudy advanced effects, but the equivalents in von Schillings come off as somewhat sour. The recording by Erno Rozsa (violin); Slovak State Philharmonic Orchestra (Kosice)/Alfred Walter features an outstanding soloist who is fully up to the technical and interpretive demands of this score.


----------



## Roger Knox

Both *von Schillings* and *Siegfried Wagner (1869-1930)* were Nazi Party members. That's one reason why their music is seldom heard now. They died before most pre-war effects of the regime, let alone the Second World War and Holocaust, occurred. I trust that no one will think inclusion of Nazi composers here as endorsement of their odious views and vicious actions. The ones mentioned were important in their era, and hearing their music helps to understand the musical forces at work then.

The single movement _Violin Concerto_ (1915) by Siegfried attractively reflects his father's melodic and harmonic style; the solo violin provides a very effective analog to Richard's vocal style and the orchestration and figuration appeal to me. The opening lyrical part is very affecting while the faster remainder seems to continue the rhythmic jogtrot for too long. Recordings:

Siegfried Wagner: Violin Concerto & Flute Concertino 
Ulf Hoelscher (violin), Andrea Lieberknecht (flute), Dietrich Henschel (baritone)
Rheinland-Pfalz State Philharmonic Orchestra, Werner Andreas Albert; CPO 9994272 (1996).

Siegfried Wagner: Violin Concerto with orchestral accompaniment 
Juraj Cizmarovic (violin); WDR Radio Symphony Orchestra, Cologne/Marcus Bosch (conductor); Coviello Classics COV31104 (2009). Also includes Hans Pfitzner's Violin Concerto (mentioned above) and Richard Wagner's Träume (Dreams) arranged for violin and orchestra.


----------



## Roger Knox

Eramire156 said:


> I noticed yesterday that the 2019 composer to be featured at the 30th Bard Music Festival will be _*Erich Korngold *_, to be held over two weekends in August in upstate New York . No details yet, just save the dates.
> August 9-11; August 16-18


Sounds wonderful! It shows far recognition of Korngold has advanced. Incidentally there are over 20 recordings of his Violin Concerto.


----------



## Roger Knox

Composers of violin concertos born *1850-1874*:

PREVIEW: So far we've mentioned *Emil von Reznicek, Richard Strauss, Max von Schillings, Hans Pfitzner, Siegfried Wagner*. To come: *Max Reger's* magnificent _Violin Concerto in A Minor_.

As for *1875-1900*: *Richard Wetz, Karl Weigl, Rudi Stephan, Hans Gal,* and a salute to *Erich Korngold*!


----------



## Eramire156

Roger Knox said:


> Sounds wonderful! It shows far recognition of Korngold has advanced. Incidentally there are over 20 recordings of his Violin Concerto.


I'm surprised I don't have a recording of the concerto, need to fix that, do you have recording to recommend?


----------



## Roger Knox

Eramire156 said:


> I'm surprised I don't have a recording of the concerto, need to fix that, do you have recording to recommend?


I have *this CD* and have listened to it many times with pleasure:

*Barber, Walton and Korngold: Violin Concertos 
James Ehnes (violin); Vancouver Symphony Orchestra/Bramwell Tovey (2006)
Onyx ONYX4016*

Here are some that have been well received but I haven't heard:

Britten & Korngold: Violin Concertos
Vilde Frang (violin); Frankfurt Radio Symphony/James Gaffigan (2016)
Warner Classics 2564600921

Korngold & Nielsen: Violin Concertos 
Jiyoon Lee (violin); Odense Symphony Orchestra/Kristiina Poska (2018)
Orchid Classics ORC100079

Korngold: Symphony, Violin Concerto & Film Music 
Gil Shaham (violin); London Symphony Orchestra/André Previn (2016)
Eloquence ELQ 4823438

The Silver Violin
Nicola Benedetti (violin); Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra/Kirill Karabits (2012)
Decca 4783529

Barber and Korngold: Violin Concertos 
Gil Shaham (violin); London Symphony Orchestra/André Previn (1994)
DG 4398862


----------



## Roger Knox

*Max Reger's* _Violin Concerto_ in A, op. 101 is a large three-movement symphonic concerto in the tradition of Brahms and Beethoven. It is generous with ideas and attractive features, especially in its themes and development, harmony and orchestration. The opening Allegro is the most complex and can become dizzying with its changes of key and dynamic level. The slow movement is a gem, especially the ending which must not be missed. The dance-like finale is exciting and has a number of humourous touches. The solo part is very demanding with virtuoso technique and a profusion of figurations; at the same time the sense of its being part of a symphonic concerto's development of themes and motifs in a large formal structure is there. Actually, I found it better to go over the orchestra and solo themes several times before listening to the composition. Also, for listeners who haven't heard it before it might be easier to grasp the second movement alone, and then add the third, before getting your sea legs in the turbulent first!

As for recordings:

Benjamin Schmid (violin); Tampere Philharmonic Orchestra/Hannu Lintu (2012) on Ondine ODE12032, including the composer's _Violin Concerto_ and _Chaconne_, is excellent.

Walter Forchert (violin); Bamberg Symphony/Horst Stein (rec. 1991) on the recently released set *Max Reger - Orchestral Edition -Concertos, Sinfonietta*; Deutsche Gramophone 4835137 (2018) is also excellent. Forchert's playing of the first movement is more incisive and passionate.

*The Romantic Violin Concerto 11 - Reger*. Tanja Becker-Bender (violin); Konzerthausorchester Berlin,/Lothar Zagrosek; Hyperion CDA67892 (2012). I haven't heard this one, but it's been well-received.


----------



## leonsm

Richard Wetz's 2nd Symphony is pretty amazing.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Max Reger* is not totally neglected but much of his music is. The unfinished _Symphonic Rhapsody For Violin And Orchestra_, Op.147 is fortunately included in the Bamberger Symphoniker/Horst Stein CD set mentioned in Post #297. The work was completed by the composer's student Florizel von Reuter.

Reger must have loved the violin! The Rhapsody contains a wealth of musical ideas, expression and variety in six sections: lyrical ; waltz-like; rhapsodically elevated; fugal; solo cadenza; coda -- the last I'm guessing written by von Reuter, more conventional and sentimental that what Reger might have penned. This composition is well worth hearing, as are the _Two Romances for Violin and Orchestra_, op. 50 on the same CD set, passionately played by Hans Maile/Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin/Uros Lajovic. Finally, the six-movement _Suite in A Minor_, op. 103.a was written in an older style, originally for violin and piano. Later Reger himself orchestrated No. 3, the sublime Aria; the other movements have also been orchestrated. Close your eyes, listen to the Aria, and maybe your spine will tingle as mine did to the sound of Walter Forchert's violin with the Bamberg Symphony led by Horst Stein.


----------



## Roger Knox

leonsm said:


> Richard Wetz's 2nd Symphony is pretty amazing.


Yes indeed, although I think his #3 is even better. See also post #202. And we're coming to his Violin Concerto soon.


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Violin Concerto in B minor_, Op. 57 (pub. 1933) by *Richard Wetz* (1875-1935) is a remarkable work that shows the composer's ongoing stylistic development. The work came after completion of his three notable symphonies, and we see him now adopting more chromatic and innovative procedures. It is in four sections played without a break, in a structure that has been compared to the violin concerto of Pfitzner. The first is elegiac in character, with a two-note motif suggesting the opening of Beethoven's Ninth. After that comes an expressive, pastoral section of great melodic and harmonic imagination. The third section in D minor is energetic and march-like, with some tricky violin writing including rapid virtuoso flourishes, while towards the end some of the opening material returns. The four sections are: (1) Etwas gehalten; (II) Ruhig und ausdrucksvoll; (III) Straff und entschieden; (IV) Im ersten Zeitmass.

Wetz's joining of the Nazi party and promoting its goals in his home-base cities Erfurt and Weimar has of course limited the post-World War II reception of his music. Fortunately the only available recording is a very good one, by violinist Ulf Wallin with the Rheinland-Pfalz State Philharmonic Orchestra/Werner Andreas Albert CPO (2003).


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Violin Concerto_ (1928) by *Karl Weigl (1881-1948)* is a substantial and significant work that deserves more attention. Its first movement begins with a remarkable high-register congeries of flutes, oboes, clarinets, and strings, joined by the soloist in producing trills and squeaky sounds, which recurs during the opening two movements. The following Largo features a wide-leaping melodic violin line with daring harmonies that remain within a clear tonal structure. The Finale is quite different, fast and in perpetual march motion with a driving motif and a more popular feel.

There is a CD recording of this wonderfully original violin concerto, including also the composer's Paul Wittgenstein-commissioned _Concerto for Piano Left-Hand and Orchestra_. David Frühwirth is the excellent violin soloist, with the Norddeutsche Philharmonie Rostock/Florian Krumpöck on Capriccio C5232 (2013).


----------



## Roger Knox

In 2018 we remember composers whose lives were lost during the First World War, including George Butterworth, Alberic Magnard, and *Rudi Stephan (1887-1915)*. The latter's _Music for Violin and Orchestra in One Movement_ (1911) has a slow, exquisitely-harmonized opening in which major chords barely glint through expressive, pensive surroundings. In this work contrasting sections are juxtaposed; the solo part becomes more virtuosic and the tempo picks up. The full orchestra alternates with sparsely accompanied passages for the violinist followed by the initial section's return and an exquisite close over the chord of C major. The evocative recording by Sergey Stadler violin; Melbourne Symphony Orchestra/Oleg Caetani on Chandos (2005) is available on a CD including Stephan's complete orchestral works.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Hans Gál's (1890-1987)* three-movement _Concerto for Violin and Small Orchestra_, Op. 39 (1931) is a work not to be missed. Elegant melodies and countermelodies, suave harmony, terrific orchestration and an appealing solo part -- check, check, check, it's all there. Gál's style could be described as somewhat neo-classical, but with Viennese charm and tasteful expressiveness. The opening movement, Fantasia, is loosely-formed with a Viennese waltz-style section. After that is a slow pastoral Arioso movement, which continues directly into the sprightly Rondo that features deft counterpoint and a witty cadenza. I recommend highly the recording by Annette-Barbara Vogel; Northern Sinfonia/Kenneth Woods on Avie AV2146 (2010).


----------



## Roger Knox

*Erich Korngold (1897-1957)* is hardly neglected nowadays, but he was deprecated for many years as a "Hollywood composer." His _Violin Concerto (1947)_ received poor reviews from some critics and has taken some time to become the repertoire staple that it is today. Yet it is continuously engaging and emotionally resonant for musicians and audiences alike, to the point that by now many top violinists have played it in concert and on recordings. See post #296 for some suggested newer recordings. In addition there is Jascha Heifetz's famous recording that is especially significant because he contributed violinistic ideas to the work, particularly the third movement. (See also post #290 for a notice of the 2019 Bard Festival with Korngold the featured composer.)

It is gratifying to see a composer and work rise in status from "neglected" to "repertoire," and none could be more deserving than *Erich Korngold*!


----------



## Roger Knox

At this point we've come to the end of the violin section of concerto/concertante works. There are two more areas: *cello* concerto/concertante compositions, and concerto/concertante compositions for *other instruments*. Because I don't have time for the listening involved, I will post a list of composers in each area for _you_ to comment on! Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions about this proposal.


----------



## Roger Knox

As promised here is a list of *composers and concertante works for violoncello and orchestra*. We've discussed other works by all except cellist-composer Julius Klengel, who wrote four cello concertos and was an outstanding teacher. As a composer he was a conservative friend of Brahms.

The works assumed to be non-neglected are: Brahms's Double Concerto (violin & cello); and Bruch's _Kol Nidrei_. Unlike previous lists, on this one there are many I haven't heard yet:

*Carl Reinecke* - (Concerto in) D Minor, op. 82
*Joachim Raff* - D Minor, op. 193
- G Major, WoO45
*Albert Dietrich* - G Minor, op. 32
*Max Bruch* - _Canzone_, op. 55
- _Adagio on Celtic Themes_, op. 56
- _Ave Maria_, op. 61
*Friedrich Gernsheim* - E minor (this concerto not on YT to my knowledge)
*Salamon Jadassohn* - Cavatina, op. 120
*August Klughardt* - A Minor, op. 59
*Julius Klengel* - No. 1, A Minor, op. 4
- No. 3, op. 31
- No. 4, op. 37
- Two Cellos & Orch., E Minor, op. 45
*Felix Weingartner* - A Minor, op. 60
*Eugen D'Albert* - C Major (1899)
*Hans Pfitzner* - No. 1 (1935)
- No. 2 (1944)
*Hans Gal* - Concerto, op. 67 (1944)
*Erich Korngold* - Concerto (1946)

Good luck and best wishes for a Happy New Year!


----------



## Roger Knox

*Last Regular Post on This Thread*

Here is my last regular post on this thread. With 307 replies and 21,611 views so far (to be sure, some by me!) the thread is very long. I ask you to continue to post on this thread as you wish -- including replies, corrections, new information -- about any musical area since the OP on August 15, 2017. I'll do likewise in a limited way. But please don't add any more areas, e.g. vocal music ...

Thank you to everyone who has participated! Your insights, knowledge, and judgments have helped enormously.

Now we're at the last category: composers of concerto/concertante works for instruments other than piano, violin, and cello. Just a basic list here, including some "non-neglected" works.

*Carl Reinecke* - Concerto for Harp and Orchestra
- Concerto for Flute and Orchestra
- Ballade for Flute and Orchestra
*Max Bruch* - Romance for Viola and Orchestra, op. 85*
- Concerto for Clarinet, Viola and Orchestra
*August Klughardt* - Concertino for Oboe and Orchestra
*Richard Strauss* - Concerto No. 1 for Horn and Orchestra
- Concerto No. 2 for Horn and Orchestra
- Concerto for Oboe and Orchestra
- Duet Concertino for Clarinet, Bassoon and Orchestra
*Walter Braunfels* - Concerto for Organ and Orchestra

*The Bruch Romance, op. 85 is gorgeous, my favourite of all Bruch's concertante compositions. But recordings can be confusing: in addition to violists, it is also played by violinists on the viola, and by violinists on the violin.


----------



## sonance

Roger Knox - you created a very fine thread with lots and lots of information. Thank you.

Today I like to add another "neglected" composer. I stumbled across his name on YouTube and fell in love with his cello concerto.

Josef Pembaur d.Ä. (der Ältere= senior), 1848-1923, born and died in Innsbruck. Pupil of Anton Bruckner in Vienna and Josef Rheinberger in Munich; musical director in Innsbruck, composer and conductor, pianist. He is considered "one of the great personalities in Tyrol". He composed one symphony, an opera, oratorios, a requiem, masses, marches, piano music, chamber music, and many works for male choirs and some for mixed choirs, songs.

Besides some CDs with songs and sacral music there is a CD with an early work "Frühlingsouvertüre" (Spring Overture), the cello concerto and the symphony "In Tirol" (In Tyrol). The works were recorded live in 2008.










This CD is highly recommended. As far as I see it is not available at Amazon or any other retailer except at the Tiroler Landesmuseum in Innsbruck:
http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/catalogsearch/result/?q=pembaur

Unfortunately the English introduction in the booklet is extremely short; a lengthy description of the symphony (probably by Pembaur himself) is cited only in German.

Enjoy listening to the cello concerto and the symphony:


----------



## Roger Knox

sonance said:


> Roger Knox - you created a very fine thread with lots and lots of information. Thank you.
> Enjoy listening to the cello concerto and the symphony:


Thank you, sonance, for your kind remarks, and especially for sending the links to music of *Josef Pembaur*. I have been listening to a lot of cello concertos from the same period. Pembaur's _Cello Concerto in B Minor, op. 86 _certainly belongs with those listed in post #307! It is an appealing work showing the influence of the New German School in advanced modulation (key changes), which he might have learned in Bruckner's classes (though his style is not Brucknerian). I found the cellist's playing of the slow movement warm and expressive and look forward to listening again to the whole work, which is recorded for the first time! Next -- listening to the _Symphony in F Major_. (Incidentally, I read German.)


----------



## Roger Knox

The_ Symphony in F major - In Tirol_, op. 39, by *Josef Pembaur* is in a pastoral key, and brings with it the range and grandeur of mountains and valleys. The second movement's broad theme draws one in, love the woodwind playing here. The Scherzo is charming -- perhaps derived from a Tyrolean folk song of dance? -- and ends with a celebration. In the F major finale, there is a slower section visiting the other common pastoral key -- D Major -- and lots of other harmonic exploration before the return of the home key and re-establishment of the familiar. Excellent work and recording!


----------



## sonance

Roger Knox - thanks a lot for your feedback. Yes, the booklet text cites the Tyrolean folksong "Von der Kappleralm" - 



 -, which Pembaur used in his symphony.

You obviously are a very knowledgeable person, whereas I'm just a simple amateur (amatrice?), just loving classical music without being able to analyze. To recommend an unknown composer can be risky. Though over the years I developped a trust in my own taste, sometimes it takes some courage to talk about or recommend unknown works. - So, yes, I'm very grateful for your feedback.

Lately I came across the name of Ferdinand Thieriot (1838-1919), a German composer and cellist. As far as I can see there seems to be a growing interest, as more and more recordings show up (though with chamber music only: piano quartets, piano quintet, string sextet etc.). But according to German Wikipedia he composed at least nine symphonies (maybe that's a task for the label cpo???). I don't know any of his music yet (except just right now listening to the first movement of Symphonie D-Dur via YouTube: 



 - perhaps you'd like to investigate ...


----------



## Roger Knox

sonance said:


> Though over the years I developed a trust in my own taste, sometimes it takes some courage to talk about or recommend unknown works ... Lately I came across the name of Ferdinand Thieriot (1838-1919), a German composer and cellist.


I think the sense of taste and years of experience you have are the two most important things, and encourage you to make recommendations on TalkClassical, especially this thread! My specialized knowledge is in music composition and theory. I appreciate your comments and the information you offer too, e.g. on Ferdinand Theriot. Have listened once to his Symphony in D Major -- not ready to say too much yet. For one thing he has a very large orchestral output. Also the realization of the symphony using NotePerformer 3 gives a good idea of the work, but it's not equivalent to an orchestral recording. To be continued.

The other Josef Pembaur composition for orchestra is his _Spring Overture (c. 1880)_. After an intriguing slow introduction it is an exciting ride, with plenty of variation and development of themes as well as surprising harmonies. This work is worth many hearings I think. Just want to mention also that this composer is *Josef Pembaur the Elder (1848-1923)*, the subject of the above Gustav Klimt portrait and photo (both 1890). There were two sons, *Josef (1875-1950, a concert pianist)*, and *Karl (1876-1939, a choir director and composer)*. Josef the Elder's images are mistakenly included with Josef the pianist's (he had a moustache) on the latter's YouTube recordings.


----------



## Roger Knox

Of the works listed in post #307, the cello concertos of cellist-composer *Julius Klengel (1859-1933)* have been new pleasures for me. Klengel was a tremendous all-around musician and teacher of Feuermann, Piatigorsky, and Pleeth, among others. I particularly like the _Cello Concerto No. 4_ in B minor, op. 37 and the _Concerto for Two Cellos & Orch._ in E minor, op. 45. The former is an agile, mature work that incorporates appealing new harmonic and technical advances of the post-1850 era, while the latter is, well -- just delightfully written for the unusual medium. Right from his _Concerto No. 1_ in A minor, op. 4 Klengel composed in a fluent, elegant manner that is not only idiomatic for the cello, but also well-crafted for balance and interplay with the orchestra. He was a conservative, beginning I think in the Mendelssohn-Schumann orbit; in any case I find myself listening to his works repeatedly. Re post #307 I can add that there doesn't seem to be a second cerllo concerto, but I assume the _Concert Piece in D minor_, op. 10 takes its place. There is also the late _Concerto for Violin, Cello, and Orchestra_. which I haven't heard. I happen to like the cello played in the smooth, legato manner of Feuermann, and now see who might have influenced him in that direction. Finally, want to mention that David Popper -- older than Klengel and probably the best-known cellist-composer of the era, who I had thought was Austrian -- actually was born in Bohemia and pursued his career in Budapest.


----------



## Roger Knox

sonance said:


> Lately I came across the name of Ferdinand Thieriot (1838-1919), a German composer and cellist. As far as I can see there seems to be a growing interest, as more and more recordings show up (though with chamber music only: piano quartets, piano quintet, string sextet etc.). But according to German Wikipedia he composed at least nine symphonies (maybe that's a task for the label cpo???). I don't know any of his music yet (except just right now listening to the first movement of Symphonie D-Dur via YouTube:
> 
> 
> 
> - perhaps you'd like to investigate ...


I have listened to the _Symphonie D-Dur_ (unnumbered) and to Thieriot's _Sinfonietta_, op. 55 and _Loch Lomond Overture_, op. 13, also realized using the remarkable Sibelius NotePerformer 3 software! My reluctance to comment continues, because with NotePerformer 3 my reactions to works have been very inconsistent. Concerning the Symphonie, the first time I was unimpressed but the second time I like it very much. That is probably because I've now heard several NotePerformer3 versions of Thieriot pieces and am staring to "listen around" the technology, noting its strengths and weaknesses in comparision to an actual orchestral recording. One strength is that Note Performer 3 presents the piece's pitches, durations, and sometimes even timbres accurately. A weakness, especially in slow movements, is phrasing -- even with the dynamics in place (loud, soft, etc.) I miss a conductor's shaping of phrases.

Though the music seems awkward or repetitive occasionally, I recognize it's intention to to be simple and conservative, and to invoke Styrian folksong or dance in places. So, I still think it's a good symphony. And I'd like to hear it performed and/or recorded with a good conductor. I could be wrong, what do others think?


----------



## Roger Knox

*Hans Pfitzner* Cello Concertos



Roger Knox said:


> *Hans Pfitzner* - No. 1 (1935); No. 2 (1944)


Any thoughts on these Pfitzner concertos? I have some ... two more to add ... plus two recordings ... stay tuned-up! (C G D A)


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> *Hans Pfitzner* Cello Concertos
> 
> Any thoughts on these Pfitzner concertos? I have some ... two more to add ... plus two recordings ... stay tuned-up! (C G D A)


The Pfitzner cello concertos may please at first hearing, they are not demanding but rather austere, short, conservative, expressive without lying into too virtuosity, maybe with some slight advanced touches here and there. They're not masterpieces by any means, albeit one detects some interesting features. My order of preference is:

Op. posthumous
Op. 52
Op. 42


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> The Pfitzner cello concertos may please at first hearing, they are not demanding but rather austere, short, conservative, expressive without lying into too virtuosity, maybe with some slight advanced touches here and there. They're not masterpieces by any means, albeit one detects some interesting features. My order of preference is:
> Op. posthumous
> Op. 52
> Op. 42


The cello concertos by *Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949)* come as a surprise to me. There is not only the expected melancholy, but also passion, drama, and even folk-like simplicity. I share MusicSybarite's high estimate of the *Cello Concerto in A minor*, Op. posth. (1888) - its expressive depth is astonishing for a nineteen-year-old composer. In traditional sonata form, the opening Allegro attains the "one-thing-leads-to-another" inevitability of an inspired whole. The following Andante is melodically compelling, with an effective cadenza that resembles accompanied recitative. This work was thought lost till it reappeared in the 1970's. Of the two available recordings of the Pfitzner complete cello concertos I bought the more recent one, which also includes his *Duo*, Op. 43 (1937) for violin, cello, and small orchestra:
*Pfitzner Cello Concertos and Duo*. Alban Gerhardt; RSO Berlin/Sebastian Weigle. Hyperion; The Romantic Cello Concerto 4 (2014). CDA67906
Cellist Alban Gerhardt is excellent throughout this collection; for the Duo he is joined by violinist Gergana Gergova. No Brahms Double Concerto here! In their ensemble and interplay the soloists capture the spirit of this lighter three-movement work, in whose middle section the liner notes identify "recitative-like dialogue between the two soloists," while the finale is cheerful. In the next post I'll continue to *Cello Concertos Nos. 1 & 2* and the other complete recording featuring cellist David Geringas.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Hans Pfitzner's* *Cello Concertos, Op. 42* in G major (1935) and *Op. 52* in A minor (1944), plus his early posthumous concerto discussed above also are included on an older CPO recording with David Geringas, cello; Bamberg SO/W.A. Albert. I imagine Pfitzner found his compositional voice in the cello -- this CPO disc has the advantage of exceptional playing by Geringas, whose smooth style and bow control are magical. I like op. 42 and op. 52 equally, though they express a certain despair more often than does the earlier work. The cello concertos are the first Pfitzner works to attract me and I recommend listening to them in order to experience some positive aspects of this troubling composer.


----------



## Roger Knox

Backtracking to violin concertos, one that I really like upon recent acquaintance is the *Violin Concerto in E-flat Major*, Op. 20 (1909) by the Vienna-born *Erich Jacques Wolff* (1874-1913). *Erich Wolff* was a prolific composer of much-admired lieder and other works, and an associate of Zemlinsky and Schoenberg. He became much-in-demand accompanist for top concert singers. On tour in 1913, he died in New York City while undergoing an operation. Wolff's early passing was a great loss to music.

The virtuosic, 40-minute *Violin Concerto* was commisioned by Canadian violinist Kathleen Parlow, who doesn't seem to have performed it, however. The work has received a superb performance by Sophia Jaffé; Neue Philharmonie Westfalen/Heiko Mathias Förster, available on upload. All three movements are appealing; it is post-romantic but doesn't move into expressionism, and the last movement is upbeat in a sophisticated way. I recommend the work and performance highly and wish it was available as a recording.


----------



## leonsm

I'm really liking Wetz's Violin Concerto right now, which is very melodic and throughout enjoyable.


----------



## Roger Knox

leonsm said:


> I'm really liking Wetz's Violin Concerto right now, which is very melodic and throughout enjoyable.


Coming to *Richard Wetz's* _*Violin Concerto in B Minor*_, op. 57 (publ. 1933) after some recent listening has changed my previous impression left by passages in the last section, that it is a virtuoso work. The concerto has its performance challenges, but now as *leonsm* says the pervasive melodic interest of this highly-expressive composition is what lingers. A sense of lamentation is gripping for this listener; I think of the four sections being played without a break as an outpouring of passionate grief that cannot stop. The recording featuring Ulf Wallin's very persuasive performance is still available:

Ulf Wallin, violin; Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz/Werner Andreas Albert, conductor﻿. CPO 9999332 (2005)

See also Post #301.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Wilhelm Berger (1861-1911)* was included in an earlier list provided by *MusicSybarite* but I wasn't able to access his music then. Having now heard his *Symphony No. 2 in B Minor*, op. 80 (1900) I think he's a composer worth attending to, although the archival audio sound currently available from an upload does not do him justice. Clearly he was an adept German post-Romantic composer; I enjoyed this work and hope to hear the *Symphony No. 1* (1899) as well, though there is no commercially-available recording of either work currently.


----------



## Roger Knox

erroneus post ......................


----------



## Roger Knox

*Wilhelm Petersen (1890-1957)* was another German composer of symphonies. He is particularly associated with the city of Darmstadt. Strange that like Erich Wolff he's only come to my attention recently. He wrote five symphonies (1921, 1923, 1934, 1941, 1957) of which the post-Romantic *Symphony No. 4* can be heard on an upload of archival sound quality. It's a fascinating, well-crafted work which doesn't sound to me like the music of any other composer; Petersen went through changes in style and is perhaps hard to pin down. There's a Wilhelm Petersen Society which has a goal of getting his larger compositions recorded, and let's hope they succeed!

*N.B.* Concerning two previous posts, there is also a Swedish composer, Wilhelm Peterson-Berger (1867-1942), not to be confused with either of the preceding Germans. Furthermore, in the annals of music history there is a profusion of Bergers and Petersens/sons that can be very confusing -- beware!


----------



## Roger Knox

Along with the modernist piano concertos in post #256 and elsewhere, here are some modernist concertos for other instruments by German and Austrian composers born 1874-1900:

*Violin Concertos*:

*Schoenberg - Violin Concerto*, op. 36 (1934-36)
*Berg - Violin Concerto* (1936)
*Wellesz - Violin Concerto* (1961)
*Weill - Concerto for Violin and Wind Instruments*, op. 12 (1925)
*Hindemith - Violin Concerto* (1938)
*Krenek - Violin Concertos* (1924; 1954)

I particularly like the Berg and Hindemith.

*Viola Concertos/Concertante Works*:

*Hindemith - Konzertmusik for Viola and Large Chamber Orchestra*, op. 48 (1930)
*Hindemith - Der Schwanendreher for Viola and Small Orchestra* (1935)
*Hindemith - Trauermusic for Viola and Small Orchestra* (1936)

*Cello Concertos*:

*Toch - Cello Concerto* (1925)
*Hindemith - Cello Concerto*, op. 3 (1915)
*Krenek - Cello Concerto* (1953; 1982)

*Other Instruments:*

*Orff - Concertino for Wind Instruments and Harpsichord* (1925)
*Krenek - Concerto for Organ* (1979, 1982)
*Krenek - Concerto for Harp* (1951)
*Krenek - Concertino for Flute, Violin, and Harpsichord* (1924)
*Krenek - Little Concerto for Organ and Harpsichord* (1949)


----------



## Templeton

Not sure if this has already been posted but a full modern recording of Joseph Marx's 'Eine Herbstsymphionie' has recently been released. The conductor is Johannes Wildner, with the Grazer Philharmoniker and the reviews that I have seen have been favourable. Apparently the proposed 2017 live recording by Vladimir Jurowski and the London Philharmonic Orchestra has now been shelved. The Wildner recording is available on CD and download.


----------



## Roger Knox

Templeton said:


> Not sure if this has already been posted but a full modern recording of Joseph Marx's 'Eine Herbstsymphionie' has recently been released. The conductor is Johannes Wildner, with the Grazer Philharmoniker and the reviews that I have seen have been favourable. Apparently the proposed 2017 live recording by Vladimir Jurowski and the London Philharmonic Orchestra has now been shelved. The Wildner recording is available on CD and download.


Great news -- look forward to hearing It! I read that Vladimir Jurowski wasn't satisfied with the LPO recorded tracks.


----------



## Aries

I recommend Martin Scherber.

He wrote three symphonies (1938, 1952 and 1955).

His tonal language reminds of Bruckner but his form is different. Just one movement that develops for 30-60 minutes.

It is serious stuff.


----------



## sonance

Roger Knox - I guess you are still interested in getting to know other late romantic composers?

Just today I saw an ad for piano music by Jean Louis Nicodé (1853 - 1919) which is about to be released soon. The ad described Nicodé as an almost unknown late romantic composer. He was born in Jersitz near Posen (then Prussia, today Poland); though a descendant of French huguenots he is considered to be a German composer. For more info see English resp. German Wikipedia.

The piano CD seems to be the very first CD dedicated only to him. Otherwise there is a Phaedra disc with a cello sonata. But you'll find a few orchestral works (radio broadcastings) on Youtube - listening to some of them I guess it's time to explore more of his works and hopefully to be recorded soon ...
















(There are a few more YT videos.)


----------



## sourmilkmoon

pjang23 said:


> Erno Dohnanyi, one of the true successors of Brahms who wrote a wealth of chamber music, symphonies and concertos which are conspicuously absent from the repertory.
> 
> Violin Concerto No.1
> Piano Concerto No.1
> Piano Quintet No.1
> Piano Quintet No.2


I concur.
Brilliant


----------



## MusicSybarite

sourmilkmoon said:


> I concur.
> Brilliant


Those Dohnányi concertos are not interesting enough, rather unmemorable, at least for me. Otherwise, the quintets are essential.


----------



## Roger Knox

sonance said:


> Roger Knox - I guess you are still interested in getting to know other late romantic composers?
> 
> Just today I saw an ad for piano music by Jean Louis Nicodé (1853 - 1919) which is about to be released soon. The ad described Nicodé as an almost unknown late romantic composer. He was born in Jersitz near Posen (then Prussia, today Poland); though a descendant of French huguenots he is considered to be a German composer. For more info see English resp. German Wikipedia.
> 
> The piano CD seems to be the very first CD dedicated only to him. Otherwise there is a Phaedra disc with a cello sonata. But you'll find a few orchestral works (radio broadcastings) on Youtube - listening to some of them I guess it's time to explore more of his works and hopefully to be recorded soon ...
> 
> (There are a few more YT videos.)


I just listened to Jean-Louis Nicodé's _Symphonic Variations_ which I think is a substantial work of melodic and harmonic interest though conservative for its time. Now I'll keep listening -- and hope for more up-to date recordings.


----------



## flamencosketches

MusicSybarite said:


> Those Dohnányi concertos are not interesting enough, rather unmemorable, at least for me. Otherwise, the quintets are essential.


Dohnányi was a professor for years at the university I went to, there's a concert hall named after him there. First I'm ever hearing of his music, not too bad. I can hear the Brahms comparison.


----------



## Roger Knox

Quote Originally Posted by sonance View Post
Roger Knox - I guess you are still interested in getting to know other late romantic composers?

Just today I saw an ad for piano music by Jean Louis Nicodé (1853 - 1919) which is about to be released soon. The ad described Nicodé as an almost unknown late romantic composer. He was born in Jersitz near Posen (then Prussia, today Poland); though a descendant of French huguenots he is considered to be a German composer. For more info see English resp. German Wikipedia.

The piano CD seems to be the very first CD dedicated only to him. Otherwise there is a Phaedra disc with a cello sonata. But you'll find a few orchestral works (radio broadcastings) on Youtube - listening to some of them I guess it's time to explore more of his works and hopefully to be recorded soon ...

(There are a few more YT videos.)



Roger Knox said:


> I just listened to Jean-Louis Nicodé's _Symphonic Variations_ which I think is a substantial work of melodic and harmonic interest though conservative for its time. Now I'll keep listening -- and hope for more up-to date recordings.


*Jean Louis Nicodé (1853-1919)* despite his French Huguenot origins was a German composer born in Prussia, who had a significant career as a composer, pianist and conductor based in Dresden. Thanks *sonance* for introducing him to us -- there is quite a bit to know about *Nicodé*! First of all one needs to listen to a number of his orchestral works for a rounded impression. His early _Fantasiestück_ _Die Jagd nach dem Glück_ ("The Pursuit of Happiness," 1878) is Wagnerian in style, showing a sure command of harmony and orchestration. It has a slow yearning introduction and a snappy scherzo featuring repeated-note staccato. _Maria Stuart_ (1880) is a symphonic poem beginning with a lament over a descending ground bass followed by an effective clarinet recitative and a final allegro section. Both of these works are very compact and listenable. The _Symphonic Variations in C Minor_ (1885) mentioned in my previous post is an extended three-part work. I now notice it to be traditional in form but adventurous harmonically; that would confirm the scholar Don O'Connor's placing of Nicodé between the Brahms and Wagner schools. I haven't yet heard his longer symphonic ode _Das Meer_, Op. 31 (1880), and only the trailer for his huge _Gloria! einem Sturm und Sonnenlied_ (1905), which includes a chorus and in the digitally-realized version on YT is 123 minutes long!

In addition to these symphonic works there are also his lighter suites for orchestra: the _Symphonische Suite_ (1886), _Pictures from the South_, op. 29 (1886), and _Carnival Pictures_ (1890 -- the latter exists on record by the MDR Sinfonie/Hilmar Weber, released on the Naxos Classical Archives Series in 2011). Hearing these works and not the others might give the impression of Nicodé as mainly a light-music composer, which is certainly wrong. And there are other problems with the reception of Nicodé:
1) most of the recordings on YT of the above-mentioned compositions are from broadcasts by the ND Philharmonie/Werner Andreas Albert, cond. [1954] -- which were never released by CPO
2) in this connection, after the two earliest works, it may be that Nicodé's style strikes some as too leisurely and long-winded -- _i.e._ predictable and repetitive
3) also the larger works are difficult to play and require the huge resources which Nicodé was able to muster in Dresden
4) there may be an _x_ factor in that both Nicodé and his music present a diffuse impression -- in between Brahms and Wagner and light music, or lacking melodies that really take hold. And yet he was doing his large, complex works even before Strauss (whose music he conducted) and Mahler

His orchestral music is certainly worth listening to and please send your insights!


----------



## DeepR

After listening again to Von Hausegger's great Nature Symphony I decided to Google him for a bit.

Here's an informative PDF about Siegmund von Hausegger.

http://www.vonhausegger.com/files/Pan German Symphonist.pdf

And a nice performance of his symphonic poem Wieland der Schmied


----------



## mbhaub

This is incredible! We've waited decades for a complete recording, and here it is and it's amazing. If you love the late-post-Viennese repertoire like I do, this is essential.


----------



## jim prideaux

coming rather late to this discussion but listened to Franz Schmidt's 2nd and 3rd symphonies this week for the first time...….was very impressed and looking forward to getting hold of recordings-Jarvi and Sinaisky.


----------



## Templeton

jim prideaux said:


> coming rather late to this discussion but listened to Franz Schmidt's 2nd and 3rd symphonies this week for the first time...….was very impressed and looking forward to getting hold of recordings-Jarvi and Sinaisky.


Jim, you may prefer the Semyon Bychkov and the VPO recording of the 2nd, at least I do. Sinaisky's recording of the Third is fine. Fabio Luisi also recorded a full cycle with the MDR Leipzig, which is worth checking out.


----------



## mbhaub

jim prideaux said:


> coming rather late to this discussion but listened to Franz Schmidt's 2nd and 3rd symphonies this week for the first time...….was very impressed and looking forward to getting hold of recordings-Jarvi and Sinaisky.


Schmidt is one of my very favorite composers. Will never understand why his music isn't more well known. Anyway, the Jarvi account of the 2nd is mind blowing - the Chicago Symphony in fine form, full throttle. I was in London at the Proms concert when Bychkov and Vienna presented it, and it is a superb performance, but I still think Jarvi is preferable. Sinaisky's set is excellent all the way, and he bests Jarvi clearly in the other three. Jarvi's impatience shows too often. Then there is that MDR set with Luisi - skip it. The sound is constricted, boomy and not clear. Too bad, because the performances themselves are good, and he went on to record the piano concertos as well as The Book with seven Seals. (But why oh why didn't they go back and edit that awful trumpet clam in the first symphony?) If you're tempted by the first complete cycle with the Slovakian Radio Orchestra and Lyudovit Rajter, you can safely skip it, too. There isn't a single movement that isn't marred by sloppy playing or flaccid, dull conducting.


----------



## Templeton

mbhaub said:


> Schmidt is one of my very favorite composers. Will never understand why his music isn't more well known. Anyway, the Jarvi account of the 2nd is mind blowing - the Chicago Symphony in fine form, full throttle. I was in London at the Proms concert when Bychkov and Vienna presented it, and it is a superb performance, but I still think Jarvi is preferable. Sinaisky's set is excellent all the way, and he bests Jarvi clearly in the other three. Jarvi's impatience shows too often. Then there is that MDR set with Luisi - skip it. The sound is constricted, boomy and not clear. Too bad, because the performances themselves are good, and he went on to record the piano concertos as well as The Book with seven Seals. (But why oh why didn't they go back and edit that awful trumpet clam in the first symphony?) If you're tempted by the first complete cycle with the Slovakian Radio Orchestra and Lyudovit Rajter, you can safely skip it, too. There isn't a single movement that isn't marred by sloppy playing or flaccid, dull conducting.


I have never really got to grips with the Neeme Järvi recording of the 2nd, too much dissonance to my ears and prefer Bychkov and Luisi's recordings. Neither, however, has the frisson of the 2015 Proms performance, at least from my perspective, which, like mbhaub, I was also lucky enough to attend. A lot of critics rated it as the performance of that season.

I agree that the recording quality of Luisi and the MDR is not up to the standards of the other recordings but, unless you have a high spec sound system, I am not sure that it will make a lot of difference to most people. These are performances of a very high standard, again imho, although I must acknowledge a personal bias for Luisi, who is, I believe one of the most underrated of today's conductors.

Pleased to hear that somebody else has discovered Franz Schmidt and particularly the 2nd Symphony, one of my very favourite works.


----------



## Roger Knox

After much hemming and hawing on my part, here we go with German-Dutch composer *Julius Roentgen (1855-1932)* whose music has enjoyed a major revival, ongoing as far as recording of the complete symphonies is concerned. Beginning with the _Violin Concerto No. 1 in A Minor (1902)_ -- this is a complete delight! Formally conservative and influenced by Brahms, here are a couple of witty aspects in the captivating first movement. The opening arpeggios over an A minor triad I think of as a violinist's warm-up, perhaps calculated to impress anyone listening! At one point there are the opening notes of Paganini's famous Caprice No. 24 (theme of famous variations by Brahms and Rachmaninoff), then the violinist thinks better of it and returns to the flourishes. In the second theme group there's a series of chords reminiscent of Wagner's well-known "Magic Fire Music" from _Die Walkuere_, along with which there are very beautiful developments in the violin part. Rather than parody, the passage suggests to me a re-interpretation of Wagner's fraught chromaticism in a serene manner. The second movement opens pastorally, with the "Wagnerian" bit returning toward the close. In the last movement there is a modal section based on a Dutch song from the Renaissance. The artistry with which all the elements are sewn together make for a most satisfying listening experience.

In brief, Roentgen's _Ballade for Violin and Orchestra_ (1918) seems to occupy the position of a (non-existent) second violin concerto. It is sectional with clear demarcations of mood. The solo's impressive lyricism and interaction with the orchestra held my attention. The _Violin Concerto No. 3 in F# Minor (1931)_ is reflective. Its very Brahmsian first movement includes a cadenza bristling with difficult chords and double stops. A profound slow movement with a bittersweet quality follows. The opening major triad is contradicted immediately by a tonic minor seventh, and the major minor-minor chord succession continues. The finale, beginning with a remarkable soloist's moto perpetuo, rounds off this work. CPO's recording of all three works by Lisa Ferschtman; Deutsche Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfaltz/David Porcelijn (2011) is the best in my view.


----------



## KenOC

Roger Knox said:


> After much hemming and hawing on my part, here we go with German-Dutch composer *Julius Roentgen (1855-1932)* whose music has enjoyed a major revival, ongoing as far as recording of the complete symphonies is concerned...


I have his three cello concertos, which are surprisingly good. They were all available on YouTube last time I checked.


----------



## Roger Knox

KenOC said:


> I have his three cello concertos, which are surprisingly good. They were all available on YouTube last time I checked.


I agree, Julius Roentgen's three cello concertos are impressive and I've enjoyed becoming acquainted with them! Two CD's of the complete set are available:
- Arturo Muzabal, cello; Dutch Radio Orchestra/H. Schaefer, P. Watkins. Etcetera, 2007.
- Gregor Horsch, cello; Netherlands SO/David Porcelijn. CPO, 2013.
Gregor Horsch is Principal Cello of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra and an outstanding artist. Both recordings are on YT.

The _Cello Concerto No. 1 in E Minor_ (1893-4) I found distant at first, but its variety and interest grow on you. It is noticeably Brahmsian, the soloist's command established from the beginning both melodically and technically, and the movement ends with a virtuosic cadenza. The strong cello writing and confident exploitation of the instrument's high range in thumb position show the influence of the dedicatee, master cellist/composer and Roentgen's cousin *Julius Klengel* (see Post #307). The second movement is sweetly melodic with charming harmonic turns, while the Italian-style 6/8 finale is rhythmic and lively.

Quite different is the one-movement _Cello Concerto No. 2 in G Minor_ (1909) written for Pablo Casals. It opens with a long slow cadenza which references the arpeggiation of Bach's solo Suites at times. The cello continues with an orchestral accompaniment of modal chords; the work continues with a folk-like Celtic flavor through several different sections and moods. Towards the end is a series variations on an Irish song which leads to the closing Allegro.

Both later concertos are shorter and lighter than No. 1. In the _Cello Concerto No. 3 in F# Minor_ (1928) there are three linked movements. A unique feature is the prominent celeste whose interaction with the cello is effective, as are mysterious woodwind calls later on. A serious, spirited rondo leads to the close, which as in the previous concertos is in the tonic major key.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Seeking help with Roentgen!*

Roentgen's enormous output is confusing, especially if we're new to his music. If anyone's well-acquainted with the Roentgen catalogue, help would be _much appreciated_! I'm only discussing his solo concertos available on recordings, passing over the ones for multiple strings and orchestra and also his numerous concertante works based on folk-songs.

The symphonies are especially confusing because Roentgen did not number them; I'm using numbers given by CPO Records. CPO's plan to record the complete symphonies is still in progress. That some symphonies are lost is a shame; despite his eminence Roentgen's music fell into neglect after his death. When one considers the composer's high-level accomplishments as pianist (especially accompanying and chamber music), conductor, teacher, administrator, writer, and parent it's hard to see how he composed at all, even considering that much of his music was post-retirement.


----------



## Roger Knox

Turning to the piano concertos of *Julius Roentgen (1855-1932)*, his early *Piano Concerto No. 2, op. 18 in D Major (1879)* already demonstrates instrumental and compositional mastery of tone, figuration, texture, and mood. The opening movement is lyrical and subtle rather than virtuosic, the second sweet and deft in harmonization, the last (a boisterous Polish dance) surprising in its many twists and turns.

By contrast the *Piano Concerto No. 4 in F Major (1906)* begins in a grand and technically challenging manner. The middle movement is wonderfully atmospheric, then a fugato-like beginning becomes a finale that takes its subject through more settings than are rationally conceivable! More compact than No. 2, this work consistently features juxtaposition of two chromatic third-related keys, F Major and A major.

The recording of both works by Matthias Kirschnereit; NDR Radiophilhamonie/David Porcelijn; CPO (2011) is superb, particularly in that the pianist is equally at ease in bravura passages and fine-grained expressive areas of the work. I've noticed different opinions on Roentgen's lyrical writing and think about the topic this way: Roentgen is a master of every aspect of every area of composition including beautiful moods, harmony, voice-leading, and instrumental writing. Nevertheless his actual melodies in themselves are commonplace, especially compared to the composer who influenced him most: Brahms, who never let even inspired ideas to pass into a work without scrupulous attention. Thus Roentgen's works may be less _memorable_ than those of Brahms, Dvorak, and perhaps others of his era.


----------



## Roger Knox

The other Roentgen piano concertos available on recordings are *No. 6 in E Minor (1929) and No. 7 in C Major (1930)*, which were dedicated to Donald Francis Tovey at Edinburgh University. Each is only around 15 minutes; Roentgen considered them a pair that could be played consecutively. Some sources list them however as *Zwei Konzerte -- Nr. I and Nr. II*, which is confusing! I particularly like the one-movement No. 6 that opens with a quirky pair of triads, the second a minor ninth lower than the first, and continues in waltz time. It is a serene work with plenty of variety. No. 7 is more energetic, in the conventional three movements of which the outer ones are in quasi-Baroque style. Here I prefer the slow middle movement.

On YT are well-controlled readings of both concertos by pianist Cor de Groot; Dutch Radio Philharmonic Orchestra/Richard Hickox (original performance 1983, re-broadcast 2009). Currently listed on CD is a recording that also includes Röntgen's *Piano Concerto No. 2* by Folke Nauta (piano); Orkest van het Oosten/Jurjen Hempel; Composers Voice (1998). I've not heard this one, which in its re-issued version seems to include only the first movement of No. 7, however. As for Roentgen's piano concertos nos. 1, 3, and 5, no recordings seem to exist though the Roentgen Society in London has announced plans for No. 3.


----------



## Roger Knox

So, here goes with the 8 symphonies of *Julius Roentgen (1855-1932)* that are available on both CD and on YT. Will stick to the plan mentioned above using the numbers given by CPO for recordings; currently it seems there's a trend to listing them instead by key and date only, since numbers weren't provided by Roentgen. Anyway there are a number of unusual things about Roentgen's symphonies: no two of the ones to be discussed are alike; some are very short; and amazingly most were written at the very end of his life.

The four-movement *Symphony No. 3 in C Minor* (1910) is a major work with plenty of energy and impressive climaxes. Roentgen's Brahmsian allegiance shows in the craggy gestures of its opening movement. The succeeding movements follow the classical pattern: a formally strict slow movement with attractive lyrical passages; a scherzo marked _presto_, and a successful finale. *Sinfonietta humoristica* (1922) is also in four movements. It has been referred to as "Symphony No. 4" in some sources but not in the CPO recording, which employs Roentgen's title. Rightly so I think, it is "light music" with a fairy-tale atmosphere, including effective percussion (xylophone, triangle), and references to Mendelssohn's music for *A Midsummer Night's Dream*. In the one-movement *Symphony No. 8 in C# Minor* (1930) there is an unusual feature that I particularly like: the entrance midway of a wordless soprano. The instrumentation also includes organ and a substantial though non-soloistic piano part. The work opens with the strings creating a lonely, mysterious outdoor atmosphere, followed by an effective fast section. The story about the wordless soprano is that Roentgen heard its melody sung by a women on a farm, who was enticing her cow to come forward for milking!


----------



## Roger Knox

Roentgen's *Symphony No. 9* (1930) is known as the "Bitonal Symphony," the two tonal centres being A and B-Flat. Repeated harp notes on each pitch in turn suggest to me a mysterious ticking clock. There are six short movements including two waltzes, a chaconne (continuous variations), and a finale in which solo winds exit in turn. The bitonality has a rather ghostly effect in this ingenious and successful work. (For sustained and complex bitonality or polytonality, though, I think Darius Milhaud is the master.) The title of Roentgen's "Waltzer" *Symphony No. 10 *(1930) refers to the last of three movements, a boisterous waltz that opens with a rhythmicized version of the "Dresden Amen" from Parsifal. The same theme appeared in common-time garb at the opening of the first movement -- clearly Roentgen`s Wagner-parody mode is in operation. As is his contrapuntal muse: between those movements is a well-wrought fugue. Incidentally, this symphony is sometimes numbered 10.a.


----------



## Roger Knox

Roentgen's *Symphony No. 18 in A Major* (1931) has a neo-Baroque character. The emphatic opening motif's rhythm played by strings in triads is "Yah de DAAH - thump!" - the last sounding on bass drum and cymbal, and sometimes with strings an octave lower. Straightforward diatonic harmony is varied with modally-derived chords, or modulation by half-step in sequences. The following _Andante mesto_ begins with a descending passage - the opening of a ground bass over which Roentgen builds a superb passacaglia. Later there is a fugato passage leading to changes of key and what sounds like invertible counterpoint; when the tonic key is reached the movement closes over a long pedal. A contrasting _Presto_ begins with fast triplets played by high winds in triads joined by strings, and closes with a quick Parsifal "Dresden Amen" reference. In the final section there is an introduction beginning with legato dotted chords, which continues tunefully in fast 6/8 time with some antique modal harmony.

Very different again is the one movement *Symphony No. 21 in A Minor* (1931) with its moody, expressive minor key opening with high sustained woodwind tones and ambiguous augmented triads. The second section in waltz time continues in a bittersweet mood. Following is a scherzo section that features rapid repeated note figures, while the close is a sombre chaconne with return of some of the opening material.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Recordings of Roentgen Symphonies*

I hope this post will help readers identify and find their favourites among Julius Röntgen's 24 or so symphonies! The list contains currently available recordings of the seven Röntgen symphonies discussed above, plus other symphonies and orchestral music included on the discs. All but the last are on the CPO label and conducted by David Porcelijn with various orchestras; they are excellent in my opinion. For the last recording, I've added the equivalent symphony numbers used by CPO.

_*Julius Röntgen Symphonies and Orchestral Music*_

*JULIUS RONTGEN SYMPHONIES NOS. 5, 6 AND 19*
*Symphony No. 6 'Rijck God, wie sal ic claghen'*
Consensus Vocalis, Netherlands Symphony Orchestra/David Porcelijn
*Symphony No. 5 in A minor, "Der Schnitter Tod"*
Netherlands Symphony Orchestra/David Porcelijn
Marcel Beekman (tenor)
*Symphony No. 19, "B-A-C-H"*
Netherlands Symphony Orchestra/David Porcelijn
CPO, 2017 (released)

*JULIUS RONTGEN SYMPHONIES NOS. 8 AND 15*
*Symphony No. 8 in C sharp minor*
North German Radio Philharmonic Orchestra/David Porcelijn
Carmen Fuggiss (soprano)
*Symphony No. 15 in F sharp minor*
North German Radio Philharmonic Orchestra/David Porcelijn
*Variationen über eine Norwegische Volksweise*
CPO, 2009 (released)

*JULIUS RONTGEN SYMPHONY NO. 10*
*Symphony No. 10 in D major, "Waltz Symphony"
Symphonietta humoristica
3 Preludes and Fugues (version for orchestra)
Old Netherlands Suite*
Rheinland Palatinate State Philharmonic Orchestra/David Porcelijn
CPO, 2008

*JULIUS RONTGEN SYMPHONY NO. 18*
*Symphony No. 18 in A major
Ballade on a Norwegian Folk Song, Op. 36
Een liedje van de zee (A Little Song of the Sea), Op. 45
6 Old Netherlandish Dances, Op. 46*
North German Radio Philharmonic Orchestra/David Porcelijn
CPO, 2009

*JULIUS RONTGEN ORCHESTRAL MUSIC*
*Symphony No. 9 'The Bitonal'
Serenade in E major
Symphony No. 21 in A minor*
Brandenburgisches Staatsorchester Frankfurt/David Porcelijn
CPO, 2005 (recorded), 2017 (released)

*JULIUS RONTGEN ORCHESTRAL MUSIC*
*Röntgen: Symphony in A Minor [CPO No. 21]
Röntgen: Bitonal Symphony [CPO No. 9]
Röntgen: Symphony in C Minor [CPO No. 3 ]*
Noord Nederlands Orkest/Hans Leenders
Cobra, 2009 (released)


----------



## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> *JULIUS RONTGEN SYMPHONIES NOS. 5, 6 AND 19*
> 
> *Symphony No. 5 in A minor, "Der Schnitter Tod"*
> *Symphony No. 6 'Rijck God, wie sal ic claghen'*
> *Symphony No. 19, "B-A-C-H"*


Correction to previous post: the above disc was released in 2012 not 2017. Having listened only to the "taster" openings, the obvious difference compared to previous symphonies reviewed is the addition of voices: a tenor in No. 5 and a chorus in No. 6. Both are serious in mood. No. 19, based on the B-A-C-H motif (the notes B-flat-A-C-B-natural in English), is strict in formal procedures with an impressive fugue as the final movement. As of this recording, 11 of Roentgen's symphonies are currently available on CD or on-line. CPO intends to record all his extant symphonies in the *Roentgen Symphonies Series*.

The following disc should also be added to the list:
*Symphony No. 3
Aus Jotunheim Suite*
Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz/David Porcelijn
CPO, 2007


----------



## Roger Knox

*Roentgen -- Orchestral Works Other Than Symphonies*

For my last post about Julius Roentgen's orchestral music, here is a list to help you navigate through the Roentgen non-symphony orchestral works on CPO recordings listed previously. Most are lighter works that I have found enjoyable -- happy listening!

*Aus Jotunheim: Suite für Orchester*
1. Lento, ma un poco andante 
2. Vivo ed energico 
3. Andante con moto 
4. Allegro, giocoso 
5. Lento

*Serenade in E major*
I. Moderato
II. Allegretto con grazia
III. Un poco andante
IV. Allegro molto

*Ballade on a Norwegian Folk Song*

*Een liedje van de zee (A Little Song of the Sea)*

*6 Old Netherlandish Dances*
No. 1. Salterelle
No. 2. Branle de Bourgogne
No. 3. Ronde
No. 4. Gaillarde la Brune
No. 5. Bergerette, "Les Grand Douleurs"
No. 6. Pavane, "Lesquercarde"

*3 Preludes and Fugues (version for orchestra)*
Prelude No. 1: Lento
Fugue No. 1: Poco allegro
Prelude No. 2: Andante tranquillo
Fugue No. 2: Vivace leggiero
Prelude No. 3: Lento solenne
Fugue No. 3: Andante un poco sostenuto

*Old Netherlands Suite*
I. Janne moeie, al clear, al clear
II. Niet dan druk en lijden und is in't herte mijn
III. Contredans
IV. Heer Halewijn zong een Liedekijn

*Variationen über eine Norwegische Volksweise*


----------



## Roger Knox

I don't think that the excellent composer *Emil Bohnke* has been mentioned on this thread but he certainly should be. His _Piano Concerto, Op. 14_ (1925) is an intriguing dramatic work that could be described as Post-Romantic and Expressionist, near atonal at times. In the opening move there's a sense of catastrophe in fortissimo orchestra writing with cascading piano passages, but balanced with introspective, even mysterious places. The slow movement is more tonal and has a nostalgic mood that is, however, interrupted with surprising harmonies. In the rondo finale the D Minor key and the piano's entrance remind one of the corresponding movement in Brahms's _Piano Concerto No. 1_, but from there we soon go astray into challenging dissonant territory. Material from the first movement returns near the close. The work is paired with Bohnke's _Symphony_ (1927) on a still-available disc by the Bamberg Symphony/Israel Yinon on the Koch Schwann label (released 2002). The concerto's pianist is the composer's son, Robert-Alexander Bohnke, who contributed an able and committed performance to this labour of love.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Emil Bohnke (1888-1928)* also achieves distinguished results in the earlier _Violin Concerto in D major, Op. 11_ (1920), again a work in the postromantic-expressionst vein. Concerning harmony, to be sure there are major and minor chords, and the movements end with conventional tonal cadences. But one could also compile a substantial inventory of its complex tertial (built in thirds) and added-note chords, plus other sonorities arrived at through seamless voice-leading. The work seems somewhere between Richard Strauss, Arnold Schoenberg, and Alban Berg, not excluding the latter's twelve-tone _Violin Concerto_ (1935). I sense a kinship between Bohnke and Berg, in both wild violin gestures and sensitive moments. The first movement is risky in being long and mostly slow, but what a movement! Surely the voice-like violin is _the_ instrument of expressionism! And the second movement is slow too, ending with a tragic close in B minor. Things liven up in the finale, marked "Quick and Resolute," with the agile soloist supported by repeated staccato note chords in the orchestral strings. I certainly plan to listen to this work some more.

Kolja Lessing is a commanding soloist with the Prague Radio Symphony Orchestra/Israel Yinon. Currently uploaded on YT, the CD was released in 2005 but sadly is no longer available. It also includes the composer's earlier _Theme and Variations for Large Orchestra, Op. 9_, and _Symphonic Overture, Op. 2_.
https://www.amazon.com/Violin-Symph...s=emil+bohnke&qid=1567005691&s=gateway&sr=8-9 2005


----------



## Roger Knox

*Emil Bohnke Salutes the Masters*

In addition to his Violin Concerto, *Emil Bohnke's* _Symphonic Overture, Op. 2_ (1911) and _Theme and Variations for Large Orchestra_, Op. 9 are also uploaded on YT. Listening to the Overture I imagine the young composer having a little fun with the scores he's been studying, as there are references to the following at the times indicated below and probably more (the times must be set manually on the video screen):






"Brahmsian" opening section (4th Symphony?) -- 0:00
"Mahlerian" March (3rd Symphony?) -- 2:00
Richard Strauss (Don Juan?) -- 4:10
Wagner (Die Walkure - "Magic Fire Music", etc.) -- 6:00
The "Bruckner Rhythm" where the second group is a prominent triplet, pounded out by drums in this work -- 12 345 _or _Ba-ba (Ba-ba-ba) - - 13:50


----------



## Roger Knox

The _Theme with Variations for Large Orchestra_, Op. 9 (1918) by *Emil Bohnke* is a more sombre affair, its serious theme featuring low winds in lines where chromaticism is prominent. The substantial variations, each of a different character, contribute to an overall sense of crisis through Variation IV, followed by unsettled calm in Variation V and then the last variation's grotesque portioned-out march. It is not difficult to sense the aftermath of World War I here in a work that also displays Bohnke's notable growth as a composer.


----------



## Roger Knox

*Emil Bohnke's* _Symphony, op. 16_ (1927), his last orchestral work, takes us into expressionist/modernist territory that is actually beyond the scope of this thread. In fact, listening to his works for orchestra in chronological order gives a good idea of the metamorphosis from postromanticism through expressionism to modernism that Bohnke and other composers went through. The Symphony's a large and grand four-movement work that has the traditional types of movements but innovative musical ideas. I like this piece for its dramatic effectiveness and sincerity, with content that ranges from brutally confrontational (opening movement) to expressively compelling (third movement) and much besides. Because Bohnke and his wife Lili (Mendelssohn, of the distinguished family) died in a car accident in 1928, we'll never know what direction the 40-year-old composer would have pursued. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to have missed becoming acquainted with his music.


----------



## MusicSybarite

This will be a most welcome release. cpo is a good label that knows the tastes of his listeners.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> This will be a most welcome release. cpo is a good label that knows the tastes of his listeners.


I agree and am especially looking forward to hearing Piano Concerto No. 3 for the first time. Without cpo this thread wouldn't have been possible and we owe them a lot.


----------



## Roger Knox

A new release from Hyperion (Romantic Piano Concerto series, No. 79) has the premiere recording of _Tag- und Nachtstueke_, Op. 44 (1933-34) for piano and orchestra by the notable *Walter Braunfels*, a work that received its first performance only in 2017. It is coupled with a new performance of *Hans Pfitzner's* _Piano Concerto in E-flat major_, Op. 31 (1922). Both are performed by Markus Becker with the RSO Berlin led by Constantin Trinks. I've only heard samples, but this recording has received excellent reviews for both works and performances. Braunfels evokes day and night in his atmospheric five-movement concertante work. It comes from the years when the National Socialist government was establishing itself and the composer was lying low; later it was overlooked in the family's archives. The four-movement Pfitzner was discussed in Post #243; now it's worth listening to a new fine-sounding version of this work. As mentioned earlier the Adagio is particularly good; Returning to it I somehow an "alienated persona" (i.e. of the composer?) in certain solo passages so that's a notion to pursue ...


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> I heard the _Symphony in B Minor_ (1909) by composer, conductor, and music scholar *Fritz Volbach(1861-1940)* some time ago and was impressed, despite the queasy audio on the recording by the Philharmonia Hungarica/Gilbert Varga. After three more hearings I think it's the best of the late romantic symphonies I've heard recently! The first movement's multi-layered opening, affecting song theme, and developmental counterpoint are excellent; same with the imaginative scherzo with its 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 opening beat (likely a folk-dance from points east) alternating with a waltz, and the heart-on-sleeve slow and final movements that I admire too. His earlier symphonic poem _Es waren zwei Koenigskinder_ is more traditional, again with fine melodies and expressive harmonies. No identifying information for performers is given with this upload:
> 
> https://www.dlmusicas.xyz/mp3/Bom-Cabedal.html
> 
> Volbach wore several hats, and was a prolific author of composer biographies. He composed two other symphonic poems, and one might wish there were more symphonies since obviously he had the right stuff. I hope there are better recordings somewhere and will keep looking.


Now there is a very fine recording on CPO of this symphony along with _Es waren zwei Königskinder_. I listened to the symphony and I concur with you: this is a knock-out!! Seriously, this is one of the most epic symphonies I've listened to recently, it's really impressive throughout. The 3rd movement is unabashedly magnificent, such a superb creation. The performance is just shattering, bringing the work in all its glory. Supremely recommended for fans of this kind of works.


----------



## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> ... Seriously, this is one of the most epic symphonies I've listened to recently, it's really impressive throughout...


Great to hear there is finally a new recording! Given your knowledge of this area of repertoire, this is a major compliment to the little-known Volbach.


----------



## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Great to hear there is finally a new recording! Given your knowledge of this area of repertoire, this is a major compliment to the little-known Volbach.


Haha! He deserves it and much more. This is the kind of stuff that makes me very excited. Very sad there are no many available works other than the aforementioned ones.


----------



## Roger Knox

R.I.P. Werner Andreas Albert 1935-2019


----------



## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> R.I.P. Werner Andreas Albert 1935-2019


Yes, indeed. Did wonderful work for a lot of neglected music. Held the torch high with that early complete Korngold orchestral set. Not a big time star conductor - just a hard-working, dedicated professional - we need more like him.


----------



## Roger Knox

_Do you fear advocating for "unheralded" late-19th/early 20th century German/Austrian orchestral music?_

Sometimes I do. If you read much music criticism, the writers who direct attention mainly to the gold-plated stars of orchestral composition can be condescending, implying that anyone who advocates for late Romantics like Raff or Reznicek or Bittner just doesn't get it. Modernists and post-modernists don't really want to open up space for neglected composers of the past and may characterize us as naïve, hidebound, and so on.

But there have been positives. Over the past couple of years recordings of orchestral works by L. Scharwenka, Nicode, Roentgen, Volbach, Zemlinsky, Pfitzner, Weigl, Braunfels, Gal, and others have received positive reviews. The same applies to concert performances of works by Schmidt and Marx. I'm going to add more on these developments soon. In the meantime, despite the importance of recordings and live performances the climate of opinion is important too, and here comment and information on TalkClassical and elsewhere is vital. I've found I don't have to hide or apologize for my tastes. Political or religious issues are vital and can't be ignored, but if we don't speak up for music we find good, then what are we here for?


----------

