# Film Scores ripping off Classical



## Nix

I always find it amusing whenever I'm watching a movie and suddenly I hear music similar to classical pieces but not quite them. Thought I'd start a list of plagerisms I've heard over the years, and would be happy for any contributions. 

Mozart: Ave Verum Corpus. Found in the Lion King.
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 3, 1st movt. Found in The Dark Knight. 
Beethoven: Symphony #5, 2nd movt. Found in Restoration. 
Beethoven: Piano Concerto #5, 1st movt. Found in My Best Friends Wedding
Schumann: Symphony #3, 1st movt. Found in Willow. 
Dvorak: Symphony #9, 4th movt. Found in Jaws
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #4, 2nd movt. Found in Willow. 
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition. Found in Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. 
Holst: The Planets, Mars. Found in Gladiator (most blatantly, and a lot elsewhere- just the rhythmic pattern). 
Sibelius: Finlandia. Found in Air Force One. 
Sibelius: Symphony #3, 1st Movt. Found in Lord of the Rings. 
Prokofiev: Ivan the Terrible. Found in Glory
Prokofiev: Violin Concerto #2, 1st Movt. Found in A Beautiful Mind. 
Vaughan Williams: Tallis Fantasia. Found in Glory. 


Ok wow... didn't expect to think of so many. If you'd like links, I'd be happy to provide them, but not going to take the effort before I know if someone is interested or not.


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## Aramis

There is clear rip-off from Verdi's Aida (dance from in teh middle of triumphant march) in Richard Lester's The Three Musketeers. Music was by Lalo Schifrin.


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## SuperTonic

It makes me wonder if the producers would have saved any money if they had just paid for the rights to the original pieces rather than pay someone to write an "original" score.

Or, for that matter, if the producers were even aware that the score might not be entirely original.


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## Earthling

Nix said:


> Holst: The Planets, Mars. Found in Gladiator (most blatantly, and a lot elsewhere- just the rhythmic pattern).


Not just the rhythmic pattern, but even the melody (changed from 5/4 to a sort of fast 3/8 if I recall). Unfortunately Zimmer somehow got off the hook on that one-- so bloody obvious.


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## Rondo

I feel like I've mentioned these already, but I'll mention them again; many are, according to the film music composer, known to be intentional.

The "montage" from Silvestri's _Quick and the Dead_ has a very similar 5/4 rhythm as that from "Mars" in Holst's _Planets_ suite (but it is much more anticlimactic than the Bringer of War).

Parts of (and by that I mean a few key chords played by woodwinds) in Williams' score for the Patriot sound a lot like what is heard at the beginning of Copland's _Lincoln Portrait_ (not sure whether Williams was conscious of this similarity when composing the score, but I would be _very_ surprised if he wasn't).


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## sospiro

Part of the overture of Verdi's 'La forza del destino' is the theme for Jean de Florette (& the Stella adverts)


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## Sid James

Just proves that some of the best film composers didn't rip off anybody. I'm talking of guys like Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Miklos Rozsa, Max Steiner, etc. They may have been influenced by others, but their music retains a highly individual style and sense of melody. Just listen to Rota's suite from _La Strada_ (The Street) - it is a masterpiece. Not to mention classical composers like Honegger, Shostakovich, Korngold, Malcolm Arnold, Walton and Auric (& Arvo Part & Gubaidulina too, I believe) who composed dozens of scores, mainly as a sideline to their concert output. These are the kind of film composers I am interested in getting into, not the ones who rip others off very blatantly.


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## Art Rock

Andre said:


> Just proves that some of the best film composers didn't rip off anybody. I'm talking of guys like Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Miklos Rozsa, Max Steiner, etc. They may have been influenced by others, but their music retains a highly individual style and sense of melody. Just listen to Rota's suite from _La Strada_ (The Street) - it is a masterpiece. Not to mention classical composers like Honegger, Shostakovich, Korngold, Malcolm Arnold, Walton and Auric (& Arvo Part & Gubaidulina too, I believe) who composed dozens of scores, mainly as a sideline to their concert output. These are the kind of film composers I am interested in getting into, not the ones who rip others off very blatantly.


You can add Prokofiev, Alwyn and Takemitsu to that list.


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## JAKE WYB

The forceful section from *Tchaikovsky 6th* ist movment sounds like passages fom Gladiator


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## Jeremy Marchant

Terry Gilliam's _Time bandits_ has a score which disgracefully rips off Mahler 6 if I remember correctly.


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## JAKE WYB

Also I find that *Lord of the Rings* is heavily derivative at times of *Gliere - Symphony 3, Sibelius - Kullervo, and Bruckner 9th *


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## teccomin

People probably don't listen to Philip Glass alot but check this out:
Glass's Violin Concerto 2nd movement (mid section)
VS.
Requiem for a dream

Am I the only one who thinks they are similar?


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## teccomin

sospiro said:


> Part of the overture of Verdi's 'La forza del destino' is the theme for Jean de Florette (& the Stella adverts)


Its credited, the film never claimed that it is original.


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## BeethoFan

Not sure what the average age of members on this forum is, and this was ripped off by a Saturday morning cartoon, but:






The intro theme to Where on Earth is Carmen Sandiego?! Mozart just went up a few more notches in my book (not that i wasn't a fan beforehand)... I had no idea he made that. Just awesome.


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## Earthling

Earlier today I watched _Creation_ (with Paul Bettany and Jennifer Connolly), a sort of biopic on Charles Darwin. Very good film, however I was annoyed that the soundtrack blatantly rips off Arvo Part's _In Memory of Benjamin Britten_-- why not just use the original piece? (no, I already know the answer-- _money_)


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## Chris

This song seems appropriate...


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## NEF

I'm certain that Danny Elfman stole Shostakovich's 12 Symphony - 2nd movement for the Batman theme.... Sorry for my sol-fa, but the melody is:

La-Ti-Do-Fa. Mi-Ma.

In the Shostakovich, it is found in pretty much the third bar of the second movement.


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## Earthling

That reminds me: It has annoyed me when, in the past, listening to classical music, people think I'm listening to a movie soundtrack. I want to say: You do realise that people have been composing music for orchestras long before Hollywood ever came along, right? *sigh*


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## Rondo

NEF said:


> I'm certain that Danny Elfman stole Shostakovich's 12 Symphony - 2nd movement for the Batman theme.... Sorry for my sol-fa, but the melody is:
> 
> La-Ti-Do-Fa. Mi-Ma.
> 
> In the Shostakovich, it is found in pretty much the third bar of the second movement.


I hear it too, uses some of the same intervals (including the 4th going up) and it sounds pretty similar to the beginning of the Batman score. AS a matter of fact, you can actually hear the first 6 notes of the main motif from the Batman score in the beginning of that movement. Nice find!


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## teccomin

Vangelis - 1492 Conquest of Paradise
vs
Beethoven - 5th symphony 2nd movment, especially at the key change near the end


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## Norse

The short chromatic motive that opens the first and last movements of Rachmaninov's first symphony is used throughout "Enemy at the Gates". (James Horner) I guess it's supposed to sound Russian. (A version of the motive also opens the second and third movements.)


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## NeverRelaxed

Andre said:


> Just proves that some of the best film composers didn't rip off anybody. I'm talking of guys like Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Miklos Rozsa, Max Steiner, etc. They may have been influenced by others, but their music retains a highly individual style and sense of melody.


This is ******** and I'll tell you why. Bernard Hermann ripped off the Psycho theme wholesale from Shostakovich's 3rd String quartet, movement 3. He changed the key and stole ALL of it. Then people actually have the nerve to call it a "Shostakovich INSPIRED score"! These scumbags. You are all scum.


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## Toccata

NeverRelaxed said:


> This is ******** and I'll tell you why. Bernard Hermann ripped off the Psycho theme wholesale from Shostakovich's 3rd String quartet, movement 3. He changed the key and stole ALL of it. Then people actually have the nerve to call it a "Shostakovich INSPIRED score"! These scumbags. You are all scum.


This made me laugh. Nice to see that the Mods evidently thought it funny too, and not in breach of Forum Rules.

Hence, come back "NeverRelaxed" and share with us more of your thoughts about the general quality of posts and members on this site.


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## handlebar

Almost anything from John Williams includes tidbits from the classics. Always a given with him.
I do admire some of his soundtracks though.

Jim


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## TheGrimmKnight

Norse said:


> The short chromatic motive that opens the first and last movements of Rachmaninov's first symphony is used throughout "Enemy at the Gates". (James Horner) I guess it's supposed to sound Russian. (A version of the motive also opens the second and third movements.)


Oh, you mean the motif that he also uses in:
Avatar
Willow
Troy
Glory
The Mask of Zorro
The Perfect Storm
Braveheart

I once had a complete list but I'm sure its all very googleable. ^^


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## Norse

TheGrimmKnight said:


> Oh, you mean the motif that he also uses in:
> Avatar
> Willow
> Troy
> Glory
> The Mask of Zorro
> The Perfect Storm
> Braveheart
> 
> I once had a complete list but I'm sure its all very googleable. ^^


I've only seen a couple of those movies, and if he uses it there too, I guess I didn't consciously notice. (Isn't it kinda lazy to use it over and over again like that?). Of course I have no "proof" that he took it from Rachmaninov, I just remember constantly being reminded of his first symphony during Enemy at the Gates..


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## TheGrimmKnight

I had not really noticed either, until I saw the Perfect Storm again half a year ago. Then when I saw Avatar, I thought to myself: "Hey, James Horner must have scored this one..."


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## Edward Elgar

TheGrimmKnight said:


> Oh, you mean the motif that he also uses in:
> Avatar
> Willow
> Troy
> Glory
> The Mask of Zorro
> The Perfect Storm
> Braveheart
> 
> I once had a complete list but I'm sure its all very googleable. ^^


That damn semitone motif? I've seen a couple of these films and the same motif can be heard throughout. It get's quite irritating.

You can also hear similar chord progressions in Hans Zimmer's music. Saying that, he's not being paid to be original, he's being paid to do the same thing he always does: generic pop chords with repeated motifs!


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## Bix

teccomin said:


> People probably don't listen to Philip Glass alot but check this out:
> Glass's Violin Concerto 2nd movement (mid section)
> VS.
> Requiem for a dream
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks they are similar?


Your absolutely right on that one!


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## Argus

Edward Elgar said:


> That damn semitone motif? I've seen a couple of these films and the same motif can be heard throughout. It get's quite irritating.
> 
> You can also hear similar chord progressions in Hans Zimmer's music. Saying that, he's not being paid to be original, he's being paid to do the same thing he always does: generic pop chords with repeated motifs!


You need to get this album now.


































That's music from four films (Commando, Red Heat and the two 48 Hrs films). It could easily all be from the same film. I still like it though.


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## marinermark

Saw the Sci-Fi film "Dark City" on DVD. Much of Trevor Jones' score is direcly from "Rite of Spring," and a little from "Mars" of "The Planets." Those are among favorites, so I bought the movie score CD.


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## TWhite

Lordy, this has been going on forever. If any of you are actual "classic film" buffs, you might remember the head of the MGM music department in the 'thirties and 'forties, a gentleman of very questionable original composition talent named Herbert Stothart, whose forte was ripping off every composer from Mozart to Rachmaninov for his scores, whether it be a Greta Garbo romance or a Clark Gable adventure--you name a film he scored, you could play Composer Checkers with every major 'classical' composer he either blatantly quoted or clumsily arranged. Usually, any MGM classic film I watch that has "Music By Herbert Stothart" makes me cringe a little, LOL! 

Even the great Eric Korngold was forced to use 16 measures of Mendelssohn's "Hebrides Overture" to fill in a gap during a sea-battle in his first original score for 1935's CAPTAIN BLOOD, however, Korngold, being the astute and honorable gentleman that he was, made sure that the title: "Music By" was substituted to: "Musical Arrangements By" for that particular film. Of course, later, his scores were totally original. He may have sounded a little like Strauss or Mahler, but they were also his teachers in Vienna before he came to Hollywood. 

But it's been going on a long time. I don't even let it bother me anymore, I just sit back and say to myself, "Okay, HIT me with it." 

Anyone ever listen to John Barry's great score to THE LION IN WINTER and then put on Carl Orff's CARMINA BURANA right after? Try it, sometime. Whoa!

Tom


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## Zubin

I just got back from the new Harry potter (#7 sleepy hollows) film. Music by Williams. I wouldn't necessarily call it a ripoff, but the opening theme is remarkably similar to Darius Milhaud's Creation du Monde. Give it a listen before you go see the film and let me know if you agree.


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## GraemeG

I guess Bill Conti's heard Tchaikovsky's violin concerto: the title theme of _The Right Stuff_, stirring as it is, instantly brings to mind the stuttering brass chords of the first _ff_ tutti in that concerto's first movement. Works very well, but I keep waiting for the voilin soloist to reappear...
cheers,
G


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## danslenoir

Duel of the Fates from Star Wars: The Phantom Menace rips off Dvorak 9 without even trying to disguise it.


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## Jean Christophe Paré

While I do not believe it to be a ripoff, the beginning of the Harry Potter theme song can't help but remind me of the beginning of Janacek's first String Quartet.


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## Falstaft

It is with great trepidation I enter into this thread...



Jean Christophe Paré said:


> While I do not believe it to be a ripoff, the beginning of the Harry Potter theme song can't help but remind me of the beginning of Janacek's first String Quartet.


Fair enough if it's personal hearing, but I don't think that the two pieces share anything quantifiable besides being in a minor mode and beginning with a ^5-^1 pickup figure. The real melodic source for the HP theme, as I see it, is one of Captain Hook's subsidiary themes from _Hook_, making it a case of self-ripping off, not classical .

Incidentally Zubin, the new HP movie has music by Alexandre Desplat, who (to the great detriment of the series) has not scored one of the pictures since book three.



> Duel of the Fates from Star Wars: The Phantom Menace rips off Dvorak 9 without even trying to disguise it.


I've heard the (in my view fatuous) claim that the Jaws theme is a rip-off of Dvorak 9, as if using a semitone motif was somehow a special and sole Czech invention. But Duel of the Fates? The model is so clearly Orff's "Oh Fortuna" -- where are you hearing the similarities danslenoir?


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## danslenoir

Falstaft said:


> It is with great trepidation I enter into this thread...
> I've heard the (in my view fatuous) claim that the Jaws theme is a rip-off of Dvorak 9, as if using a semitone motif was somehow a special and sole Czech invention. But Duel of the Fates? The model is so clearly Orff's "Oh Fortuna" -- where are you hearing the similarities danslenoir?


Third movement first couple of mins. Can you really not hear the similarities?


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## Jean Christophe Paré

> Fair enough if it's personal hearing, but I don't think that the two pieces share anything quantifiable besides being in a minor mode and beginning with a ^5-^1 pickup figure. The real melodic source for the HP theme, as I see it, is one of Captain Hook's subsidiary themes from _Hook_, making it a case of self-ripping off, not classical .


I should have precised that the whole was based upon the first three notes. The piece itself is very different, but every time either starts, I can't help but being reminded of the other one.


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## marinermark

There is so much music over the last sixty years or so, from so many venues that it is nearly impossible to write anything that doesn't sound (a little or a lot) like something else. Especially true of movie and TV music that has to be fairly accessible by the general public. If I were a composer I would fear that I would write something I thought was original, and when it was released discover it had been lying in my subconscious since a hearing many years earlier. Let's be a little more charitable. A few similar notes don't constitute a ripoff. Many composers' music has some similar sounds and characteristics, so I don't know that self-plagiarism is any more an issue with movie music than with general classical music. It's an interesting thread. I'm enjoying listening to the samples.


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## Zubin

One of the themes of Thomas Newman's American Beauty is identical to that of a Bach Minuet.

skip to the 33rd second of : 




and compare it to the beginning of: 




Ripoff or no ripoff, its a beautiful cue.


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## Nix

Zubin said:


> One of the themes of Thomas Newman's American Beauty is identical to that of a Bach Minuet.
> 
> skip to the 33rd second of :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and compare it to the beginning of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ripoff or no ripoff, its a beautiful cue.


Interesting... I'm not sure if it was a rip off though. While I feel like every pianist plays that Bach minuet at some point (me included), it's so forgettable in the grand scheme of Bachs output that I never noticed until now the similarities between the Newman and that. And they're are bound to be at least a handful of melodies that begin on a descending minor scale... still, a really cool contribution.


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## hyogen

didn't realize this thread was over a year old -_- my apologies for starting a new thread


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## kv466

I don't think of it as a rip-off, rather, an homage of sorts.


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## Guest

Much of the music in the remake of _Lord of the Flies_, especially the sacrificial dance and the pursuit of Ralph, is a shameless rip-off of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.

Edit: The scene on YT inexplicably substitutes Max Steiner's score from King Kong.


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## raydobbs

marinermark said:


> There is so much music over the last sixty years or so, from so many venues that it is nearly impossible to write anything that doesn't sound (a little or a lot) like something else. Especially true of movie and TV music that has to be fairly accessible by the general public. If I were a composer I would fear that I would write something I thought was original, and when it was released discover it had been lying in my subconscious since a hearing many years earlier. Let's be a little more charitable. A few similar notes don't constitute a ripoff. Many composers' music has some similar sounds and characteristics, so I don't know that self-plagiarism is any more an issue with movie music than with general classical music. It's an interesting thread. I'm enjoying listening to the samples.


I'm kind of the same thought as above. There is such a rich collection of music throughout history, and we are talking about a language consisting entirely of notes A through G, at various octaves - a certain amount of overlap, unintentional copying, and outright theft are to be expected. There are only so many arrangements of notes that sound pleasing, the combination of notes in a chord that are pleasant versus just noise, etc.

Ultimately, we are in a situation akin to there being only so many stories in the world to tell - are all of them copies of all the others before it or just mish-mashes of several different ones? What defines 'original'?


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## Debussydude

Parts of Goldsmith's score to the Omen have strong resemblance to The Rite of Spring (IMO). 
No wonder it was so scary!


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## Antihero




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## mtmailey

The copyrights of composers expires 50-70 years after the composers dies.So people may use they as much as they want.


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## PetrB

Antihero said:


>


LOL it sounds schizophrenic and interminably long -- are the credits before action actually that long, or after movie credits?

Inadvertently funny. C - D +, and a huge fat monetary fee in the form of a check for mr. zimmer, natch.


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## millionrainbows

Dune used a lot from Scheherazade. Other movies, too.


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## Cosmos

Idk if anyone remembers The Land Before Time?

Because one of the tracks sounds a little too familiar to this dance from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet


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## poptart

When I heard the score for War Horse (John Williams) I couldn't believe it wasn't Vaughan Williams, particularly _The Lark Ascending_.

What do you think?


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## TudorMihai

I've always thought that the famous Darth Vader theme was copied after the 2nd movement of Mahler's 7th Symphony. Also, the beginning of Alexander's Courage theme for the Star Trek TV Series is an almost note by note copy after the first movement of Mahler's 1st Symphony.


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## Dimitri

I would say a few things in response to plagiarism in film music. First, I think there's often a legitimate reason to reference it. Copland quoted folk songs like no other to reference a familiar source of populist music that many wer efamiliar with. In many ways these famous pieces of classical music have become today's folk songs. For instance, in Lincoln, Williams quotes Copland many times because Copland's music has become a sort of Americana folk music. In War Horse he quotes Vaugn Williams to the same effect. In Star Wars he references Mars very heavily, because it is both a) space "folk" music and b) associated with war ("the bringer of war").

There's two other types of plagiarism in film music that are related: first is temp-tracking. I'm sure most here know this, but directors/editors like to edit their films to already written music (the "temp track"). They then hand the film over to the composers and often ask them to emulate the temp track. Which is why you sometimes get the feeling that a composer was literally trying to copy another piece of music, almost note for note. Often it's not the composer that wants to do it, but the director. Second, there's plagiarism that results just do to the lack of time in film music. For instance, I doubt Dvorak's "Dumky Trio" was the temp track in E.T., and I doubt Williams was trying to tap into whatever programmatic ideas have become associated with the work. I'd bet the theme from E.T. and Dumky Trio is similar merely because film composers are expected to write hours of music in an incredibly short span of time (i.e. a month). Most composers would take a year to write that amount of music, so it follows that it can't all be 100% original. (Btw, this is the section of Dumky Trio I'm referring to: 



)

That said, in many cases the differences are so superficial that they can't really be considered a major detriment. Ie the beginning of "Luke and Leia" is similar to Bernstein's "Make Our Garden Grow" from Candide, and the love theme from Superman is similar to Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration," but the similarity is so superficial it's really not worth making a big fuss. Even when they share more than superficial similarities, Williams usually adds enough to them that I view it more as "standing on the shoulders of giants and seeing farther then they could" than plain and simple theft (granted that's JW, many other film composers don't add much to their robberies).


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## sdtom

You have to keep in mind that the music itself is in public domain for the majority of these that you mention. Now a recording might not be so if a composer uses the theme from say the Pathetique its okay but if they use a recording then rights have to be paid and credit should be given. Yes they're reusing the theme but this isn't illegal nor do they have to inform the listening audience. Most people don't care.
Tom


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## EdwardBast

sdtom said:


> You have to keep in mind that the music itself is in public domain for the majority of these that you mention. Now a recording might not be so if a composer uses the theme from say the Pathetique its okay but if they use a recording then rights have to be paid and credit should be given. Yes they're reusing the theme but this isn't illegal nor do they have to inform the listening audience. Most people don't care.
> Tom


Everyone knows plagiarizing public domain music isn't illegal. Everyone knows most people don't care about such plagiarism. But on a forum like this all such plagiarism is noteworthy - and usually both interesting and funny as well.

And to TudorMihai: I always thought the Darth Vader theme owed more to Swan Lake.


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## Radames

I was at Symphony New Hampshire last year when the conductor Jonathan McPhee explained why Bill Conti ripped off Tchaikovsky's violin Concerto for The Right Stuff. I can't remember exactly what he said but it was along the lines that Philip Kaufman the director apparently wanted some patriotic theme similar to the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto for the film. Conti wrote several themes but they were all rejected so he finally just put the Tchaikovsky Concerto in with just a couple of minor changes.


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## sdtom

EdwardBast said:


> Everyone knows plagiarizing public domain music isn't illegal. Everyone knows most people don't care about such plagiarism. But on a forum like this all such plagiarism is noteworthy - and usually both interesting and funny as well.
> 
> And to TudorMihai: I always thought the Darth Vader theme owed more to Swan Lake.


I disagree with your statement. I think that more people don't know than do. I've explained it to many people.
Tom


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## sdtom

I just received a copy of "Warriors of Virtue" by Don Davis of Matrix fame. Warriors has definite references to the _Sorcerers Apprentice and The Firebird Suite._

Tom


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## zxcvbnm

Michel Legrand quoted Stravinsky's Rite of Spring in his score for the 1983 James Bond film Never Say Never Again. The track "Plunder of a Nuclear Missile" in particular.


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## thebakerman

The batman soundtrack sounds like it was strongly influenced by the finale from bruckner's 8th.


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## Cheyenne

NeverRelaxed said:


> This is ******** and I'll tell you why. Bernard Hermann ripped off the Psycho theme wholesale from Shostakovich's 3rd String quartet, movement 3. He changed the key and stole ALL of it. Then people actually have the nerve to call it a "Shostakovich INSPIRED score"! These scumbags. You are all scum.


This thread is funny.


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## TomDickson

This is a video game example.




 - Aram Khachaturian (1:37)




 - Jason Graves (1:00)


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## differencetone

SuperTonic said:


> It makes me wonder if the producers would have saved any money if they had just paid for the rights to the original pieces rather than pay someone to write an "original" score.
> 
> Or, for that matter, if the producers were even aware that the score might not be entirely original.


Sometimes they do as in this one:

http://classical20.com/2010/02/13/martin-scorseses-new-film-shutter-island-has-bold-soundtrack/


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## sharik

Nix said:


> Film Scores ripping off Classical


pretty much all of them.


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## PetrB

SuperTonic said:


> It makes me wonder if the producers would have saved any money if they had just paid for the rights to the original pieces rather than pay someone to write an "original" score.
> 
> Or, for that matter, if the producers were even aware that the score might not be entirely original.


Here's the usual Hollywood contract deal, and 'why.'

Use an already under copyright work, and each time the film runs, or a copy is sold (dvds or rentals, or netflix) there is a fee.

When a studio hires a composer, without exception until that composer has a rep where he can simply demand it, the composer is paid _one lump sum for the delivered score,_ and the film studio owns all the copyright on the score and subsequent performances. This is much in their favor, and costs far less then the accounting for and paying of royalties to an 'outside party.'

The very reason for the existence of Richard Addinsell's _Warsaw Concerto_ came about from this same set of cost structures, i.e. the director wanted to use a Rachmainov concerto, a lot of it in various parts, throughout the film, but the royalties would have been prohibitively well over his allotted budget for a sound-track. Enter the film composer, paid but one lump sum fee, who was told "I want something very like the Rachmaninov concerto _here,_ and _here, and..."_ etc.

Throughout a career, usually later, and perhaps eventually, and maybe only since the last quarter of the 20th century, some very seasoned and proven film composers, notably John Williams, for example, can and do strike a deal with the studio of both a healthy lump sum fee paid out _plus_ at least a percent of the subsequent royalties, and those contracts are the opposite of selling your work and all rights to copyright to the studios -- this latter set of business circumstances, I bet, is still the rare exception for most film composers.


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## Avey

I went through this thread, and I was shocked, SHOCKED, that no one, at least fantasy fans, mentioned:

*Howard Shore's* _Lord of the Rings Symphony_, specifically the _Shire theme_, is so reminiscent of *Dvorak's* _Largo_ from the _Ninth Symphony_, that I almost wish he included latter portions of the *Antonin's * masterpiece, simply to acknowledge that he studied and built off this work's sentiment, nostalgia, and anecdotal material to craft a -- may I admit -- absolutely wonderful score for that film series.


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## Aleksandar

obviously influenced by Tristan and Isolde...in fact when I watched the movie Melancholia I was sure that the music in the intro was by Hermann from Vertigo...after I found out it was Wagner it pretty much made me an instant fan of his


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## JessShine

Zubin said:


> I just got back from the new Harry potter (#7 sleepy hollows) film. Music by Williams.


Similar indeed. Music by Desplatt however  Williams quit the series to do Memoirs of a Geisha after the third film


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## James Mann

I heard that Star Wards ripped off lots of Host and Stravinsky, and I can see how.


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## James Mann

PetrB said:


> Here's the usual Hollywood contract deal, and 'why.'
> 
> Use an already under copyright work, and each time the film runs, or a copy is sold (dvds or rentals, or netflix) there is a fee.
> 
> When a studio hires a composer, without exception until that composer has a rep where he can simply demand it, the composer is paid _one lump sum for the delivered score,_ and the film studio owns all the copyright on the score and subsequent performances. This is much in their favor, and costs far less then the accounting for and paying of royalties to an 'outside party.'
> 
> The very reason for the existence of Richard Addinsell's _Warsaw Concerto_ came about from this same set of cost structures, i.e. the director wanted to use a Rachmainov concerto, a lot of it in various parts, throughout the film, but the royalties would have been prohibitively well over his allotted budget for a sound-track. Enter the film composer, paid but one lump sum fee, who was told "I want something very like the Rachmaninov concerto _here,_ and _here, and..."_ etc.
> 
> Throughout a career, usually later, and perhaps eventually, and maybe only since the last quarter of the 20th century, some very seasoned and proven film composers, notably John Williams, for example, can and do strike a deal with the studio of both a healthy lump sum fee paid out _plus_ at least a percent of the subsequent royalties, and those contracts are the opposite of selling your work and all rights to copyright to the studios -- this latter set of business circumstances, I bet, is still the rare exception for most film composers.


Very interesting read, thanks


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## Guest

I must say I think the idea that film composers are 'ripping off' their illustrious classical predecessors is a nonsense. That doesn't mean I can't see the similarities, just that since film composers are hired to do a very specific job in a specific time frame, I see nothing wrong in making use of already existing musical themes, styles, tropes - even specific content. I don't expect Zimmer, Williams, Shore, Desplat et al to give credit to the influences that have come to bear on their work - though it's interesting when they do.

Anyone who thinks that the term 'original soundtrack' means that the music is wholly new and original is misunderstanding; it only refers to music composed for the film that is not already recorded by a specific artist (which would give rise to copyright payments - or action in the courts perhaps!)


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## Delicious Manager

teccomin said:


> People probably don't listen to Philip Glass alot but check this out:
> Glass's Violin Concerto 2nd movement (mid section)
> VS.
> Requiem for a dream
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks they are similar?


_Requiem for a Dream_ is the name of the film, NOT the music (which is entitled _Lux aeterna_.


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