# Early Vocal Decline



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This topic came up in a different thread, but I think it is worth having a thread of its own.

What are the causes of early vocal decline? Why do some singers have shorter careers than others due to their vocal demise? There may be more than one reason. Is it a matter of deterioration of the voice or technique? I look forward to seeing the comments and opinions of others.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The first one to come to mind for many would be Callas but it is not cut and dried that it was solely the fault of losing weight. Some have persuasively argued for an underlying health condition. Others have pointed to singing really heavy roles in her mid 20's. Definitely the inhuman truly astonishing notes above the staff disappeared seemingly after the weight loss ( note the difference in the end of D'amore al dolce impero from the live recording of the opera in 52 to the much more tame one just 2 years later). The other issues took a bit more time to fully materialize.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Astrid Varnay's voice changed a lot from her debut as Sieglinde at 22 and many think it was from taking on too many big roles before her voice had matured. She had a crisis and found a way to work around the issues that arose but by the time Nilsson's career ( same birth year) was hitting it's stride she switched to mezzo roles.
Gwyneth Jones had one of the best Verdi voices I ever heard early in her career. We know the voice was big, but perhaps singing too much Wagner without the right approach caused her to have vocal problems early that you never heard in her Verdi singing.
Voight obviously had a huge vocal change after her weight loss surgery and the whole sound of her formerly glorious Strauss voice completely changed.
Many people don't like what Renee Fleming does with her voice but it was indisputably an incredibly beautiful voice and was seemingly ageless up to 60 and she attributed it to singing a lot of Mozart throughout her career which kept her vocal production healthy.
Andrea Gruber had a lush big beautiful voice in her early performances in Seattle and had gastric bypass and sounded like a different singer when she came back for Minnie looking fabulous.
Sills had an amazingly beautiful voice early but because she was fabulously wealthy and didn't have to depend on her career risked it all to do the Three Queens and paid the price.
Dorothy Kirsten sang big roles like Minnie and Butterfly for years and still sounded like a young woman in her mid 60's.
Nilsson, Flagstad and Traubel proved you could sing huge Wagner roles for many many years and not damage the voice.
Joan Sutherland's voice was never small but grew considerably in size after her 40's but she retained a remarkable facility at coloratura and OMG high notes up till her early 60's. Only after 62 was there a noticeably decline in quality but that was a long run! She and Bonynge rewired her singing approach in her early 30's to prolong the health of the voice and you can't say it didn't work even though many didn't like the change.
Licia Albanese had a really beautiful young sounding voice right out of the the gate. Very quickly she sounded like an older woman even though her vocal technique sounded healthy to me.
Ponselle supposedly never had vocal training but she sounded very similar to the voice we heard at 22 around her retirement 20 years later and Pavarotti said her voice was completely intact at 80.
I mentioned in another thread Melchior sang probably more Wagner than anybody with over 1000 roles but at 70 he sounded virtually the same as he did in his early recordings with Leider in the 20's. He never ever pushed the voice but created an enormous sound by correct vocal projection.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Incorrect training.
Though he was warned several times to do something about it he ignored the warning signs until that fatal day when his Edgardo cracked in the marriage scene in "Lucia" and Rolando Villazon suddenly and heartbreakingly had to face his career in a new and challenging way.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Incorrect training.
> Though he was warned several times to do something about it he ignored the warning signs until that fatal day when his Edgardo cracked in the marriage scene in "Lucia" and Rolando Villazon suddenly and heartbreakingly had to face his career in a new and challenging way.


Early recordings showed a beautiful voice. Shame. I can't speak about him but many tenors ( Carreras) tried to take on roles their lyrically beautiful voices weren't meant for with bad results.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Another reason for early vocal decline in some women is menopause. You are at the mercy of your genes.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Early recordings showed a beautiful voice. Shame. I can't speak about him but many tenors ( Carreras) tried to take on roles their lyrically beautiful voices weren't meant for with bad results.


Antonenko is another who just completely lost it in '19 _Samson et Dalila_.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Forcing the voice! Right or wrong, I ascribe a great deal of the problems with early vocal decline to forcing the voice, probably because the challenge of singing such demanding music in such large halls, while being accompanied by such large orchestras simply sounds so intimidating that I believe it takes the utmost discipline and confidence to not force your voice and trust that the unforced sound you make will get the job done. After an ENT surgeon, who removed a node from my vocal cords caused not by Singing but by yelling at sixth graders 😆 , gave me the best description I ever heard of what actually happens when a singer forces the voice, I came to be even more confident that this is the great voice destroyer. Someone on here recently said that they thought that too much was made out of repertory selection in terms of damaging voices. In one sense I agreed but in another I did not. If someone can get the opportunity to sing a role which does not seem to be ideal for their voice - seems to require a darker or more powerful sound - but has the discipline to sing it the way they can, with the tools and technique that they have, and accept the outcome that they get, I believe the repertory change will not hurt their voice. But for many singers that is a lot to ask. So many adjust their production to make a sound that they cannot properly support, the forcing begins, and the decline follows.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Forcing the voice! Right or wrong, I ascribe a great deal of the problems with early vocal decline to forcing the voice, probably because the challenge of singing such demanding music in such large halls, while being accompanied by such large orchestras simply sounds so intimidating that I believe it takes the utmost discipline and confidence to not force your voice and trust that the unforced sound you make will get the job done. After an ENT surgeon, who removed a node from my vocal cords caused not by Singing but by yelling at sixth graders 😆 , gave me the best description I ever heard of what actually happens when a singer forces the voice, I came to be even more confident that this is the great voice destroyer. Someone on here recently said that they thought that too much was made out of repertory selection in terms of damaging voices. In one sense I agreed but in another I did not. If someone can get the opportunity to sing a role which does not seem to be ideal for their voice - seems to require a darker or more powerful sound - but has the discipline to sing it the way they can, with the tools and technique that they have, and accept the outcome that they get, I believe the repertory change will not hurt their voice. But for many singers that is a lot to ask. So many adjust their production to make a sound that they cannot properly support, the forcing begins, and the decline follows.


My sister was a lyric soprano and was told to sing a mezzo role. She did as you suggested and sang exactly the way she always did and came out unscathed but she said it was hard work. She retired after 15 years and taught after that. She is 84 and talks like she is 25 and she could sing high C up till she was 75.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

There could be any number of reasons for vocal decline. As mentioned in the other thread, regularly singing quietly without really strong support can be fatal for voices. Any form of constriction can lead to problems though, as those muscles become stronger keeping the throat open becomes harder and harder. Physical health is a major factor too. Forcing the voice is an obvious reason but not applicable to most good singers, however in recent times it has certainly contributed to many unpleasant performances.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The poster girl for early decline would be Elena S[o]uliotis where she probably damaged the voice by going for roles which were either too early or inappropriate ... or perhaps just bad training.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> The poster girl for early decline would be Elena S[o]uliotis where she probably damaged the voice by going for roles which were either too early or inappropriate ... or perhaps just bad training.


I'd thought of Souliotis and the decline was really fast and _very _early. The rumour is that she was an alcoholic (I've heard the same said of John Shirely-Quirk).

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Stage fright is often a reason as well. I know of one or two British singers who started with what looked like a promising career, which then didn't really materialise. My singing teacher said he had a singer come to him, a lyric coloratura soprano who had become quite well known on the circuit and also featured on a number of recordings but then suddenly gave up her career. He said there was nothing wrong with her voice or technique and that she sounded absolutely fine in class, but that when she got in front of an audience it was as if her throat closed up and her support collapsed too. She never was able to recover her early form and return to public performance, though she later became a vocal coach


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I'd thought of Souliotis and the decline was really fast and _very _early. The rumour is that she was an alcoholic (I've heard the same said of John Shirely-Quirk).
> 
> N.


I had an early recording of him singing Ralph Vaughn Williams that was gorgeous. I immediately thought of Souliotis but her name eluded my recall.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Stage fright is often a reason as well. I know of one or two British singers who started with what looked like a promising singer, which then didn't really materialise. My singing teacher said he had a singer come to him, a lyric coloratura soprano who had become quite well known on the circuit and also featured on a number of recordings but then suddenly gave up her career. He said there was nothing wrong with her voice or technique and that she sounded absolutely fine in class, but that when she got in front of an audience it was as if her throat closed up and her support collapsed too. She never was able to recover her early form and return to public performance, though she later became a vocal coach


I have been active in Toastmasters now for a dozen years and the number one greatest fear in America is speaking in public ( greater than sky diving etc.) and I have never read the stats but singing in public must be way way up there as well but there is no organization to help you overcome that problem. The bigger the crowd the better I am and my sister never had stage fright when she sang but she said many of her fellow singers really suffered from it. Ponselle had a real problem with nerves which likely contributed to her retiring at the height of her career.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Calls also suffered from stage fright which got worse as the spectre of her fame got greater. Graziella Sciutti tells a story of standing in the wings with her before she went on stage. Callas was clutching her hand so tightly that once she'd gone on stage, Sciutti noticed she'd drawn blood!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

mistake


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The first one to come to mind for many would be Callas but it is not cut and dried that it was solely the fault of losing weight. Some have persuasively argued for an underlying health condition. Others have pointed to singing really heavy roles in her mid 20's. Definitely the inhuman truly astonishing notes above the staff disappeared seemingly after the weight loss ( note the difference in the end of D'amore al dolce impero from the live recording of the opera in 52 to the much more tame one just 2 years later). The other issues took a bit more time to fully materialize.


Do you know Edna St. Vincent Millay's little poem, as follows?

*My candle burns at both ends; 
it will not last the night; 
but ah, my foes, and oh, my friends,
it gives a lovely light.*

--There's Callas.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> The poster girl for early decline would be Elena S[o]uliotis where she probably damaged the voice by going for roles which were either too early or inappropriate ... or perhaps just bad training.


Elena Souliotis had a glorious technique. When a singer has bad technique, you can hear it because it will sound strained. I think it was the alcoholism and/or over-booked performances.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Elena Souliotis had a glorious technique. When a singer has bad technique, you can hear it because it will sound strained. I think it was the alcoholism and/or over-booked performances.


She was also very young to be taking on these dramatic soprano roles.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Elena Souliotis had a glorious technique. When a singer has bad technique, you can hear it because it will sound strained. I think it was the alcoholism and/or over-booked performances.


I’m not sure about a glorious technique. The technique was fine but sounds like she lacks a little freedom and support, not much but enough to become a problem when singing big roles with what, to me, seemed an essentially lyric voice with an incisive edge. If her vocal production had freed up just a little she might have lasted longer. As her career progresses you can increasingly hear her having struggles to keep the throat open and keep the resonance consistent.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I’m not sure about a glorious technique. The technique was fine but sounds like she lacks a little freedom and support, not much but enough to become a problem when singing big roles with what, to me, seemed an essentially lyric voice with an incisive edge. If her vocal production had freed up just a little she might have lasted longer. As her career progresses you can increasingly hear her having struggles to keep the throat open and keep the resonance consistent.


I've always thought her technique was a little suspect. Even in her best recording, that of Abigaille in the Gardelli *Nabucco*, the singing is a bit wild. She doesn't quite lose control, but she sounds as if she might any minute and that is one of the things that makes it so thrilling. In a very short time the gaps in her registers became chasms and by the time of the *Macbeth *she is singing with three distinct voices; a stentorian chest which she carries very high, a ringing, bright top and an occluded, hollow sounding middle voice. 

I don't know if she was an alcoholic or not, but Bjoerling was and he didn't lose his technique.


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