# The Doom-Laden Dreaded Ninth?



## michael walsh (Sep 6, 2009)

We know of the more famous 9th symphonies .. and those that nearly made it, which coincided with the deaths, sometimes untimely, of their composers. 

I just wondered if there were enough composers to die at the 9th anything, to bring the phenomenon from mere coincidence to thought provoking supernatural? 

Is there a case to answer? There were undoubtedly lesser known composers whose ninth might have brought their bell to toll.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Before I think up any kind of response, just to make sure it's appropriate, I really have to ask whether or not this is a serious question...


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Those who died:

Beethoven,
Dvorak
Schubert
Spohr,
Bruckner
Mahler
Vaughan Williams
Schnittke
Arnold
Atterberg
Sessions


Those who wrote more:
Shostakovich
Hovhaness
Haydn
Mozart
Brian
Henze
Schuman
Petterrsen 
Myaskovsky
Milhaud
Rubbra
Villa-lobos
Tubin
Simpson

A few examples of those who wrote less:
Schumann
Brahms
Saint Saens
Sibelius
Nielsen
Liszt
Berlioz


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

I am not sure if it is fair to say that Schubert wrote 9 symphonies when the 7th and 8th are incomplete and if we count them they aren't the only incomplete symphonies Schubert wrote.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

scytheavatar said:


> I am not sure if it is fair to say that Schubert wrote 9 symphonies when the 7th and 8th are incomplete and if we count them they aren't the only incomplete symphonies Schubert wrote.


Good point. He wrote more than 9 symphonies. In addition to the "Unfinished Symphony" there are a few other "unfinished symphonies" including especially his Symphony No 10 the sketches of which have been worked up by Bryan Newbould into a really nice work.

I suspect that the number 9 in regard to symphonies only has a special significance because that's where Beethoven stopped (excluding only preparatory work on No 10). If this were taken out of the equation no-one would care how many other composers achieved the same result. However, this fact hardly seems important because Beethoven's Symphony No 9 was premiered almost 3 years before his death, and in the intervening period he wrote all of his "late period" string quartets. Therefore there is no link between the No 9 and Beethoven's mortality.

This issue is an empty box.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

> Schnittke


Nope. The 9th was left unfinished and the 5th is also called Concerto Grosso No.4 (it's weird, I know). So it's either 8 or 7 symphonies.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Artemis said:


> This issue is an empty box.


Why? Have you eaten all them chocolates already? Never mind, it's still got the picture on the top to look at.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

> Bruckner


What about No.0? And the ninth was unfinished (although not "as unfinished" as usually unfinished symphonies are). And there are tons of various editions, some have quite major differences.



> Mahler


Though Das Lied von der Erde wasn't classified as a symphony it sometimes treated as one. His 8th, although a symphony, is pretty different from his others, and not only because of the number of performers involved or that its use of vocals. If you ask me, it's von der Erde that should've been a symphony, not No.8.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well funny we pick out Mahler because wasnt the curse of the ninth his concept? And his fear of it led him to calling it Das Lied instead of labeling it a symphony.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

> And his fear of it led him to calling it Das Lied instead of labeling it a symphony.


Yep  The most ironic thing is, had he labeled it a symphony, he would've successfully avoided his "curse". He would've wrote 10 symphonies and an unfinished 11th.


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## michael walsh (Sep 6, 2009)

Whatever, no one it seems evades the Grim Reaper. I love the answers though. As always most illuminating and learned. Ironically, our discussions and debates bring those great musicians to life. So perhaps, through their music they have indeed side-stepped the hooded sceptre with the scythe. Oh that we too could live beyond our lives through our music; our art, our works.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

michael walsh said:


> Whatever, no one it seems evades the Grim Reaper. I love the answers though. As always most illuminating and learned. Ironically, our discussions and debates bring those great musicians to life. So perhaps, through their music they have indeed side-stepped the hooded sceptre with the scythe. Oh that we too could live beyond our lives through our music; our art, our works.


Interesting ideas. I feel it is my civic duty to be a vessel for their art in order to do my small part to keep them alive.

______________

Vaughan-Williams was mentioned above. I consider his output to be eight symphonies and one good soundtrack suite. He simply named the latter a symphony. One might as well call Holst's _The Planets _a symphony in my opinion.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Those who died:
> 
> Beethoven,
> Dvorak
> ...


As explained above, we therefore remove Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler & Schnittke from the list. The theory starts to look a little threadbare...
Graeme


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Indeed Graeme


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

GraemeG said:


> As explained above, we therefore remove Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler & Schnittke from the list. The theory starts to look a little threadbare...
> Graeme


There is a way to put it to the test. Penderecki has written eight symphonies, and he's still alive. We just need to persuade him to start a ninth one, and then wait to see if anything happens.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Fsharpmajor said:


> There is a way to put it to the test. Penderecki has written eight symphonies, and he's still alive. We just need to persuade him to start a ninth one, and then wait to see if anything happens.


While also remembering that anything that did happen would constitute absolutely no kind of proof whatsoever for this crackpot theory!


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well Fshaprmajor, I hope youre conscience does not burden you too much when he does die.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hang on, one of Penderecki's other symphonies is still unfinished (the 6th, according to Wikipedia), so he's only completed 7 so far...


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

I wouldn't have suggested it if I really believed it!

Here's a set of limericks I wrote on the subject,
for my limerick thread a while ago:


Beethoven’s career reached fruition
With his Ninth, but a weird superstition
Then somehow arose
Saying all who compose
Any more would end up in perdition.

Franz Schubert abandoned his Eighth,
And wrote a new ninth one, “The Great,”
But soon he was dead
With no mark on his head.
It must have been something he ate.

When Dvorak had proudly unfurled
His wonderful Ninth, the “New World,”
He soon was found dead
With no sign of bloodshed.
At the foot of the bed he lay curled.

Now Bruckner, he got right down to it.
He honestly though he could do it.
When he was found dead
With no blow to his head,
He was only about halfway through it.

When Mahler completed his Nine,
He thought everything would be fine.
But next he was dead
As a doornail. They said,
“Could someone have poisoned his wine?”

Vaughan Williams, he thought nothing of it.
“That’s nonsense,” he said. “I’m above it.”
He finished the piece
Just before his decease
While declaring, “I hope people love it.”

Though Stalin denounced the work first,
Shostakovich, at least, beat the curse.
While not superstitious,
He did get suspicious
And snatched a syringe from the nurse.

Penderecki has now written eight,
And he has been nervous, of late.
If anyone dares him,
He says the thought scares him,
But still thinks it could be his fate.

This tale of the curse of the “Choral”
Of course has an apposite moral:
Write an opera instead,
Or you’ll find yourself dead
From a toxin, injected or oral.


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