# Beethoven 9th vs. Choral Fantasy



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

I read the Choral Fantasy was an experiment for Beethoven to before he wrote the 9th. Of course, both are great pieces. Both have a lot of similarities in theme, chord progression and musical ideas development. Do you have a favourite Choral Fantasy recording? Have anyone seen a live performance of Choral Fantasy?


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

I like this one (Leipzig, Konwitschny, some guy playing the piano) with commie alternate lyrics:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't know about calling them both great pieces. Beethoven 9, yes. Choral Fantasy, no.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I don't know about calling them both great pieces. Beethoven 9, yes. Choral Fantasy, no.


I agree. The _Choral Fantasy_ is interesting and enjoyable, but less than a masterpiece. I do think of it as experimental; the 9th was the real fruit of that experiment.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I like them both very much.

My favorite Ninth is Fricsay: 









My favorite Choral Fantasy is Haitink off this set:


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2017)

t's fun to shop and buy CDs online and have music coming in the mail all the time 

It sure is Florestan.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I've just got to go with the 9th.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I love both works. Hearing the Choral Fantasy live was one of the first times I've ever cried at a concert - it really was so utterly beautiful, I was sitting next the choir; and when they sing the final _Kraft!_, it's quite something... What a great piece!

That being said, I obviously consider the 9th to be the greater work - hearing it live was also one of the formative musical experiences of my life. But hey, luckily we have them both and can enjoy them whenever.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I enjoy the Choral Fantasy, although it's not on the same level as the Ninth Symphony (but then, what is?) 

My favorite recording of the Choral Fantasy is John Eliot Gardiner conducting the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, with Robert Levin on fortepiano. I'm usually not a huge fan of HIP recordings, but this one is sublime.

The recording includes Levin's improvisations of several cadenzas for the Choral Fantasy. It's quite a daring move for a performer to add his own original improvisations to a work by Beethoven, but Levin has the chops and the imagination to pull it off! :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Funny enough my favourite is Serkin and the one Kissin did on a Silverster concert years ago in Germay,( DG ) CD


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

While the Choral Fantasy has been described as a preparation or preamble to the 9th Symphony, it strikes me as a highly original concept albeit not among Beethoven's greatest works. I can't think of any other work that was essentially a concertante for piano, chorus and orchestra.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Of course, when Beethoven wrote his Choral Fantasy in 1808, he had no idea that he was going to write his Choral Symphony 15 or 16 years later. The resemblances are striking but certainly not conscious, at least at the time it was written!


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

DaveM said:


> While the Choral Fantasy has been described as a preparation or preamble to the 9th Symphony, it strikes me as a highly original concept albeit not among Beethoven's greatest works. I can't think of any other work that was essentially a concertante for piano, chorus and orchestra.


If there is no Choral Fantasy, there will be no Beethoven 9th as we hear it today. I believe Beethoven did not hear both pieces because of his deaf.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

The Choral Fantasy is easier on the ear and more immediately attractive, but I don't think anyone would argue that it is as profound as the 9th symphony. I particularly enjoyed this performance:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I prefer the Choral fantasy, but neither work appeals to me.


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## pokeefe0001 (Jan 15, 2017)

This discussion has prompted me to join the forum.

Beethoven is not my favorite composer, but his Choral Fantasy, 9th Symphony and the late quartets (and particularly the Grosse Fuge) are near the top of my list of favorite works. My general feeling (not shared by many, I think) is that Beethoven did not do much in the 4th movement of his 9th symphony that he hadn't already done in the Fantasy ... except for that fugato section in the 9th.

But the 9th symphony is far more than just the 4th movement, and there is nothing in the Choral Fantasy, or any other piece of music (that I am aware of) that predicts the 9ths first 3 movements. I once read a critic compare the 4th movement to a painted wooden head on a marble statue. I would agree except that I this "marble statue" is far to static an analogy. I feel the first 3 movements of the 9th compromise one of the greatest works ever written. The 4th movement is wonderful but pales in comparison with the rest of the work.

The Choral Fantasy is an exceptional work in it's own right, and stands out for its unusual structure if nothing else: half solo piano; one quarter piano and orchestra; the rest piano, orchestra, vocal quartet, and choir. Very unusual, but Beethoven pulls it off.

A few years ago the Seattle Symphony Orchestra and chorus (plus soloists) performed it, and, as I recall, did a very good job.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

pokeefe0001 said:


> I feel the first 3 movements of the 9th compromise one of the greatest works ever written. The 4th movement is wonderful but pales in comparison with the rest of the work.


Hi POkeefe, and welcome to the forum! Controversy about the last movement of the 9th has been around as long as the symphony itself, as you probably know.

Some sources claim that Beethoven himself had doubts and that he prepared sketches for an instrumental final movement in the minor. He didn't carry through, but did use the intended theme in the finale of his A-minor Quartet, Op. 132. It's interesting to listen to that movement and imagine how Beethoven might have treated it symphonically.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

pokeefe0001 said:


> This discussion has prompted me to join the forum.
> 
> Beethoven is not my favorite composer, but his Choral Fantasy, 9th Symphony and the late quartets (and particularly the Grosse Fuge) are near the top of my list of favorite works. My general feeling (not shared by many, I think) is that Beethoven did not do much in the 4th movement of his 9th symphony that he hadn't already done in the Fantasy ... except for that fugato section in the 9th.
> 
> ...


Welcome to Talk Classical. Back in September, a Beethoven thread was my motivation for joining as well.

I agree with you that many aspects of the Choral Fantasy anticipate the vocal styles in the Ninth. However, I do want to mention something that was completely new in the Ninth: the hymn-like section beginning at "Seid Umschlungen, Millionen."

I love the religious mysticism of this section. Indeed, it is quite possibly my favorite part of the Ninth Symphony. It does not seem to have any precedents in Beethoven's earlier work. There's nothing quite so overtly religious in the Choral Fantasy, either textually or musically.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

pcnog11 said:


> If there is no Choral Fantasy, there will be no Beethoven 9th as we hear it today. I believe Beethoven did not hear both pieces because of his deaf.


Beethoven actually improvised the piano part in the first performance. It was quite an astonishing experiment for the time for the composer to show off his skills.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Funny enough my favourite is Serkin and the one Kissin did on a Silverster concert years ago in Germay,( DG ) CD


Serkin with Bernstein
Barenboim with Klemperer
Kissin with Abbado


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## 433 (Jan 4, 2017)

Probably the ninth .


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Serkin with Bernstein
> Barenboim with Klemperer
> Kissin with Abbado


How could I forget the Barenboim.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

pokeefe0001 said:


> This discussion has prompted me to join the forum.
> 
> Beethoven is not my favorite composer, but his Choral Fantasy, 9th Symphony and the late quartets (and particularly the Grosse Fuge) are near the top of my list of favorite works. My general feeling (not shared by many, I think) is that Beethoven did not do much in the 4th movement of his 9th symphony that he hadn't already done in the Fantasy ... except for that fugato section in the 9th.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum!

I think the critic that mention "the wooden head on a marble statue" has his reason to say that. However, I think the 4th movement stand alone is a fantastic movement by itself, considering using human voice as a part of the symphony! It is innovation, based on an experiment out of the Choral Fantasy (CF). The 9th is certain a masterpiece when considering the 4 movements together. The musical ideas it presented and the soul searching of Beethoven in his deaf gained a significant artistic accomplishment when compare the 9th with the CF. Certainly, the CF is very unusual and I believe not many composer (maybe none) had the same musical motivation to do it.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Pugg said:


> How could I forget the Barenboim.


Which Barenboim recording do you like?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

This discussion reminds me of my first 'discovery' of the Choral Fantasy many years ago. I had saturated myself with the 5 piano concertos and was sad to find that there were apparently no more Beethoven piano & orchestra works. It was hard to find recordings of rare woks on vinyl in the early days or hard to even know what existed. 

Anyway, by chance I came across a Vox recording of the CF and it was the closest thing to another Beethoven piano concerto. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.  (Later I found the piano adaptation of the violin concerto and the concerto WOO, the latter limited as it is).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> Which Barenboim recording do you like?


The one DavidA mentioned : Barenboim with Klemperer.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Like DaveM said, the Choral Fantasy was a late "find" for me too. This recording did it:








BTW, this is sort of a "concept" CD, which I find very appealing. It works as an entity unto itself.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Pugg said:


> The one DavidA mentioned : Barenboim with Klemperer.


What about this for Barenboim?






Itzhak Perlman and Yo-yo Ma was in the audience. They performed Beethoven triple concerto together in the same concerto. This is a historical event!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> What about this for Barenboim?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a good one, there's a DVD out there on EMI same program.


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