# Dvorak's Symphonic Poems and Piano Concerto



## Warmo

So what are your opinions on his poems and the piano concerto?
i like the poems, they have a distinctive romantic flavor, are different from each other. the one thing they don't seem to have, at least for my ears, is better harmony. at some point they seem like they are composed of several different sounds stitched together instead of being a continuous melody. Still very melodic and nice to the ears, my favorites have to be Water Goblin and Husitska.

I also love the Piano Concerto, it does have a tendency to be a bit repetitive, but the those melodies are just...


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## superhorn

The piano concerto is a very appealing work but unfortunately , relatively few famous pianists have taken in up, probably because it is not a slam bang razzle dazzle work which they can use to show off . Dvorak was more of a string player than a pianist, and althpough he was a passable pianist he did not really have the idiomatic feel for the instrument that other pianist/composers had .
I recently borrowed the classic EMI recording with Sviatoslav Richter and Carlos Kleiber conducting on library interloan and enjoyed it very much . Rudolf Firkusny and other Czech pianists have recorded it, but 
unfortunately, the big names of the piano such as Rubinstein,Horowitz, Rudolf Serkin, Arrau, Kempff,
and others never recorded it , and as far as I can tell, never performed it live, which is a pity .
Nor have present day pianists of the caliber of Ashkenazy,Barenboim, Argerich, Brendel, Fleisher, 
Peter Serkin, Kissin, De Larrocha, etc championed it .


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## superhorn

Oops. Should read "taken it up", not taken in up.


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## joen_cph

As already said, there´s been a bunch of recordings with Czech soloists through the years. I´ve collected the following recordings on LPs:

- Kvapil,Jilek,BrnoPO/sup 79 1110 2373
- Maxian,Talich,CzPO/sup mono sua 1016
- Ponti,Rohan,PragSO/turnab 73 tvs 34539 (Cover:Mallasz)
- Firkusny,Somogyi,WienerStatsOperO/gloria st 1c 045 91172

- Richter,Kondrashin,MosRSO/period showcase mono sho 341

Kvapil is the newest and the one with the best sound & I´ve always liked it a lot; a very beautiful slow movement, and sufficient drive in the 1st movement.

Frantisek Maxian was a great pianist, who recorded too few works.

Richter´s, I believe, is also in a Brilliant Classics Richter CD box set.

Ponti´s can be a bit dull by comparison.


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## mmsbls

I have the Richter recording of the Piano Concerto, and I quite enjoy it. I'm not sure why more don't perform/record the concerto. 

The tone poems are interesting. I have Simon Rattle doing all four. When I first heard them, I was not overly enthusiastic. In fact they did not really sound like Dvorak to me. I have listened to them over time heard my daughter playing The Noon Witch with her University symphony. As with many (good) works, I have come to find them more enjoyable over time. I'm not sure I'll ever feel they are in the same class as his other symphonic works.


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## bigshot

I love the tone poems, but the Czech Philharmonic is like no other orchestra in this stuff. Talich is the best. That recent Supraphon box by Neumann is great too.


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## KenOC

A plug for Dvorak's Silent Woods, version for cello and orchestra. This seems less than well-known. Here's Jacquiline du Pre and Daniel Barenboim.


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## superhorn

I have the excelent Decca recording of the Dvorak piano concerto , a live performance with Andras Schiff and Dohnanyi conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. I don't think it's still available, but it's worth looking for .
Check arkivmusic.com, the best place on the internet to get hard to find classical CDs.


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## Vaneyes

I enjoy the Tone Poems, particularly with ACO/Harnoncourt.

Re PC, I consider it to be a poor cousin of the Cello and Violin Concerti.


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## Ravndal

The tone poems is fantastic! Especially "Water Goblin" and "The Noon Witch".


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## moody

superhorn said:


> The piano concerto is a very appealing work but unfortunately , relatively few famous pianists have taken in up, probably because it is not a slam bang razzle dazzle work which they can use to show off . Dvorak was more of a string player than a pianist, and althpough he was a passable pianist he did not really have the idiomatic feel for the instrument that other pianist/composers had .
> I recently borrowed the classic EMI recording with Sviatoslav Richter and Carlos Kleiber conducting on library interloan and enjoyed it very much . Rudolf Firkusny and other Czech pianists have recorded it, but
> unfortunately, the big names of the piano such as Rubinstein,Horowitz, Rudolf Serkin, Arrau, Kempff,
> and others never recorded it , and as far as I can tell, never performed it live, which is a pity .
> Nor have present day pianists of the caliber of Ashkenazy,Barenboim, Argerich, Brendel, Fleisher,
> Peter Serkin, Kissin, De Larrocha, etc championed it .


I'm afraid that your explanation doesn't really hold water. All the famous pianists play Mozart and he's not a razzle dazzle whatever composer, truth is that Dvorak's piano concerto isn't very good.
I'm a great Dvorak fan incidentally.


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## Ukko

moody said:


> I'm afraid that your explanation doesn't really hold water. All the famous pianists play Mozart and he's not a razzle dazzle whatever composer, truth is that Dvorak's piano concerto isn't very good.
> I'm a great Dvorak fan incidentally.


I'm guessing that, although it's composed for piano, it isn't a _piano piece_. Dvorak just didn't have the feel of the instrument. Richter liked the work a lot, but even he doesn't get it to work for me.

I've read that Mussorgsky's "Pictures" isn't really a good 'piano piece' either; must be that being great music trumps that.


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## joen_cph

I don´t really see why the piano concerto has only been recorded 1/10 or 1/50 of the times that say the Mendelssohn concerti, Franck´s Variations Symphoniques or even Chopin´s 1st Concerto have. It isn´t 1/10 or 1/50 times as valuable as those ... It´s a relatively simple work and doesn´t give the pianist so many possibilities for colouring the music, though.

Due to this thread I found another Richter recording on you-tube, with Smetacek and the Czech PO (1966) 



. Interesting pictures, but the first 5 mins didn´t really grab me.

Then I checked out another you-tube with Firkusny/Susskind on you-t 



 which suits my taste better, it seems gracious, fresher and has drive IMO: 




Another interesting one, Firkusny/Cantelli (1952), has cuts in the last movement, hence the shorter playing time. Orchestral playing is even more contrastful and heroic, and with a good sense of flight; Firkusny seems very dramatic here too


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> I'm guessing that, although it's composed for piano, it isn't a _piano piece_. Dvorak just didn't have the feel of the instrument. Richter liked the work a lot, but even he doesn't get it to work for me.
> 
> I've read that Mussorgsky's "Pictures" isn't really a good 'piano piece' either; must be that being great music trumps that.


I think it must be a good piano piece because I much prefer that version to the orchestral effort--- although I have several.


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## bigshot

Hilltroll72 said:


> I've read that Mussorgsky's "Pictures" isn't really a good 'piano piece' either.


It is when Horowitz is playing it. (Or Richter)


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## Ukko

bigshot said:


> It is when Horowitz is playing it. (Or Richter)


In this context the criticism (if that is what it is) is that the work doesn't fit the piano well. I think I got this as a quote from Rimsky-Korsakov... if not, sorry about that, Rimsky. Yeah, Richter made some magic with this work.


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## bigshot

Ha! Old Rimsky might have been doing a little self-justifying, no?


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## Ukko

bigshot said:


> Ha! Old Rimsky might have been doing a little self-justifying, no?


I dunno. Rimsky seems to have thought that his friend's music could be improved by smoothing of rough edges and other 'minor adjustments'. None of Dvorak's mature compositions needed that attention.


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## bigshot

I think a lot of that was gilding the lilly.


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## Ukko

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of that was gilding the lilly.


That seems to be the majority opinion; it's even mine. I know that I prefer the piano version to any of the orchestrations I've heard... now. Back when the world was young, and I hadn't quite gotten the knack of listening to the piano, I preferred Ravel's version.


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## Arsakes

The Piano Concerto is quite good, but Dvorak's Cello and Violin Concertos are far better.

I like most of his Symphonic Poems. Like The Noon Witch, The Golden Spinning-Wheel, In Nature's Realm, Othelo, Husitska, A Hero's Song, Water Goblin and Wood Dove.


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## mtmailey

I have on CD his piano concerto & VODNIK .VODNIK get my attention the most it sounds better of his tone poems.


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## TrevBus

Arsakes said:


> The Piano Concerto is quite good, but Dvorak's Cello and Violin Concertos are far better.
> 
> I like most of his Symphonic Poems. Like The Noon Witch, The Golden Spinning-Wheel, In Nature's Realm, Othelo, Husitska, A Hero's Song, Water Goblin and Wood Dove.[/QUOTE
> 
> Don't much care for the Piano Concerto. In truth, I have not heard it much. So, need to get back to it a few times. Hopefully I can find somthing to like about it. The only recording I have is an old vinyl copy of Rudolf Firkusny the pianist.
> 
> Love all the tone poems, esp. A Hero Song and The Golden Spinning Wheel. Love both of the String Concertos, w/the Cello, IMO, one of the two greatest Cello Concerto, the other being Elgar.
> 
> It isn't in the strictest sense a Tone Poem but the orchrestrated 10 Legends, is one of my favorite Dvorak works. Another would be the Czech Suite.


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## Novelette

I like Dvorak's "Wood Dove" Symphonic Poem [Op. 110], although some parts of the work give the impression that wood doves live very exciting and turbulent lives.


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## CDs

For some reason I never knew Dvorak composed a piano concerto. Just found out about it when I was looking into the new George Szell complete box set. Hopefully today I can pick up Harnoncourt's recording of this work.


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## Merl

Arsakes said:


> The Piano Concerto is quite good, but Dvorak's Cello and Violin Concertos are far better.
> 
> I like most of his Symphonic Poems. Like The Noon Witch, The Golden Spinning-Wheel, In Nature's Realm, Othelo, Husitska, A Hero's Song, Water Goblin and Wood Dove.


Totally agree. I was gonna post almost the same thing. You saved me a job, Arsakes.


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## Malx

Like many others I believe the piano concerto to be one of Dvoraks weakest works.
My favourite recording of the Symphonic Poems is the Czech PO conducted by Chalabala on this two cd set.

View attachment 107191


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## JAS

The Heirs of the White Mountains is not a piece that I know. How is it?


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## CnC Bartok

JAS said:


> The Heirs of the White Mountains is not a piece that I know. How is it?


It's a short cantata/hymn, about 20 minutes long. Perfectly pleasant, enjoyable, it hardly top-drawer Dvorak. His more mature choral works are much better, but this piece is worth hearing for sure.


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## CnC Bartok

Novelette said:


> I like Dvorak's "Wood Dove" Symphonic Poem [Op. 110], although some parts of the work give the impression that wood doves live very exciting and turbulent lives.


The four Symphonic poems are based on stories by Erben, none of which are particularly sweet or twee! The Wood Dove is about a woman who kills her husband, then has pangs of guilt because a little birdie keeps singing on her husband's grave, so she kills herself!


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## philoctetes

I call em the Erben Poems and give them special recognition. They seem from the world of Rusalka, what a great opera that is.


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## joen_cph

I really like the fresh and energetic piano concerto & prefer it to the violin concerto - it´s among the top 6 or so of his works IMO, together with symphonies 7-9, the main cello concerto, The Water Goblin symphonic poem.

I collected a few recordings:

LP Kvapil,Jilek,BrnoPO/sup 79 1110 2373
LP Maxian,Talich,CzPO/sup mono sua 10163
LP Ponti,Rohan,PragSO/turnab 73 tvs 34539 (Cover:Mallasz)
LP & CD Firkusny,Somogyi,WienerStatsOperO/gloria st 1c 045 9117 + vox-membr 2cd 231554
LP Richter,Kondrashin,MosRSO/period showcase mono sho 341
LP Richter,C.Kleiber,BayrStateSO/emi 77 1c 065 02884
CD Ardasev,Svarovsky,BrnoPO/sup 97 su 3325-2 031

Kvapil and Firkusny are those I listen to, mostly.


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## Enthusiast

I do like - love even - the piano concerto although I do concede that it has some dull passages. I didn't like it very much until I heard Aimard's recording with Harnoncourt. Before that even Richter and Firkusny had failed to convince me. 

Conversely, I was lukewarm about the symphonic poems - despite Harnoncourt's excellent recordings - until I heard the old Chalabala recordings. Now I love them, too.


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