# The I'm Addicted To Bartok Thread



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

THE I'M ADDICTED TO BARTOK THREAD​







This thread is dedicated to those who love Bartok's music. This man is one of my biggest influences and I love almost every piece of music he composed.

I know there are many Bartok fans on this forum, so show some love for Bela right here. What are some of your first experiences hearing his music? What composition made you a fan?

For me, it was "The Wooden Prince" ballet. This piece coupled with "Cantata Profana" on a Deutsche Grammophon release with Pierre Boulez/CSO made me really evaluate his music from a different perspective. I was hooked from this point forward.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Greatest chamber composer of the previous century. His quartets are unparalleled.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

There's other good quartets by other composers but they'll all get ignored in favour of Bartok and Shostakovich. I find that sad. No doubt Bartok did some good ones (like 6 & 4) but I won't accept musicologists who say other composers are worthless just because they aren't considered to have been as 'original'.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Actually all six are unparalleled masterpieces of the genre. If you offer me a C20/21 quartet that you deem equally worthy then I'll listen to it before filing your opinion in the trash.. Shostakovich's 8th is certainly good, but I think the others are fairly easy to ignore..


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I like his orchestral works: "Concerto for Orchestra," "Hungarian Pictures," "The Miraculous Mandarin," "Divertimento for Strings," "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta," "The Wooden Prince," "Romanian Folk Dances," "Kossuth," "Cantata Profana," all of his concertos, "Portraits for Orchestra," etc.

A truly great orchestrator too. I'm particularly fond of the way the ballets "The Wooden Prince" and "The Miraculous Mandarin." I enjoy hearing the way a composer writes for orchestra and the ideas they employ this truly fascinates me much more than a chamber piece.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I remember finding Shostakovich's 14th interesting.

I thought you said that you believed Beethoven's late quartets were the best ever written, but now you say that Bartok's are unparalleled masterpieces.  Which are superior then?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Oh, the Beethoven is on a different plane of reality. Bartok's are unparalleled string quartets, Beethoven's are jesus quartets.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I remember a member here saying he couldn't listen to Bartok because he was too dissonant, but this member LOVED Shostakovich. I laughed when he said this, because I thought this was completely misinformed statement if I've ever read one.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, if he listened to Bartók quartets I understand that comment, though I myself love them.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've only listened to his orchestral output. I also have some of his solo piano works transcribed for cimbalom on a Hungaroton LP.

I think that people who are put off by the dissonance in Bartok should listen more closely. He always seems to throw in a folk melody, and his music is very well structured, even on classical lines. Like Prokofiev, Bartok's later works seemed to become more 'accessible.' So I'd recommend works like the _Concerto for Orchestra, Piano Concerto No. 3_ or _Viola Concerto _for the Bartok beginner.

I have recently acquired a Decca set of Ansermet conducting Bartok & it's excellent. The Suisse Romande might not be the greatest orchestra in the world, but they with real passion, verve & dedication. I strongly recommend this 2 cd set.

I'm also going to a concert in August here in Sydney where the Australian Chamber Orchestra will play his _Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta_. My favourite work by him, I'm really looking forward to it...


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Bartok seems not to be well thought of by contemporary composers. Is this because he did not belong to any school, did not abide by anyone's rules but his own? Or is it just sour grapes -- no one composing outside 'the system' should be that good.

Unfortunately, his years in the US were not happy ones and his genius was recognized here only after his death, and then again possibly only because in his final years he wrote a few 'accessible' works (which are just as wonderful as his string quartets, just differently wonderful). A great shame, I think, that such an innovative composer should die almost unnoticed in his adopted land.

Alongside everything else, Bartok wrote the Mikrokosmos, the best and most inspirational introduction to piano music any young player could wish for (not even excepting Schumann's Album fuer die Jugend). This is quite delightful to play whatever the chronological age of the 'young player' in question.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Does anyone have a recommendation for the string quartets? The Emerson seems to be the most popular, but i've also heard good things (and some bad things) about Takacs, Vegh, Hungarian, Keller, Berg, Tokyo etc. Something cheap and easily available on the market would be ideal.


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*New to Bartok*

I am relatively new to Bartok. I have been reading several books and of course sometimes I skip a composer because I assume that I will not like him - shame on me.

Or maybe it takes a few times to hear a piece before I can completely comprehend it? But I love it. Oh, why do I always just these composers as good or bad and then come back and love them.

I was recently reading about "Concerto for Orchestra" Sz 116.

"It is about as troubling as music comes; even the bright, humorous movements operate in nocturnal surroundings with a sense of underlying, rather sinister, urgency about them.

Out of the dark motive stated in the first five bars by the cello and double bass grow many of the melodic contours to follow. Soon there are clear indications that this slow introduction is serving as a big crescendo upbeat; the languid flute is echoed first by three trumpets, then by a burst of strings, tutta forza." From the book "Evenings With The Orchastra - A Norton Companion For Concertgoers" by D. Kern Holoman Hardback 734 pages got for a penny used off amazon.

How can I read these descriptions and not listen and love these pieces. I am going to take Bach's advise and look into the string quartets.

Bela I am sorry I judged you as unfavorable - I am an idiot.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> I am relatively new to Bartok. I have been reading several books and of course sometimes I skip a composer because I assume that I will not like him - shame on me.
> 
> Or maybe it takes a few times to hear a piece before I can completely comprehend it? But I love it. Oh, why do I always just these composers as good or bad and then come back and love them.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call yourself an idiot. You're far from it. You shouldn't put yourself down like that. I'm the only one around here who's allowed to put themselves down. 

Anyway, I _*understood*_ Bartok the first time I heard "The Wooden Prince," which was the first piece I heard from Bartok and it was truly a mind-blowing experience to hear this ballet. The other piece on this recording (Pierre Boulez/CSO) was of his "Cantata Profana" another exquisite piece. From here, I heard the Fritz Reiner/CSO of "Concerto for Orchestra," which also had two other great Bartok pieces "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta" and "Hungarian Sketches." It was at this point I was hooked for life, then I began exploring his other orchestral pieces.

He's a composer that's difficult to understand at first I think or at least for many people he is, but I liked his music from the first few measures. I just connected with it immediately. There are some composers that we all listen to and it's as if we've heard this music all our lives, but we just didn't know where.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I must also add that Barok's music has been effectively used in cinema to add atmosphere to proceedings. Like it or not, this is probably the first exposure many people get to this C20th master's music.

Who can forget how Kubrik enhanced the scenes of that huge isolated hotel in the American mountain country in _The Shining_? Or even, more recently, how the same piece (_Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta_) was used to evoke a sense of chaos in a couple of the scenes in _Being John Malkovich_?

& I really have to hear _Cantata Profana _at some stage, Bartok's most significant choral work...


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*The Wooden Prince*

I have been enjoying The Wooden Prince. I will keep moving through his pieces. WOW. I am speechless....


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

The *** ugly beginning of the 5th movement of the 4th string quartet is what made me really addicted to Bartok. Like he had been in a bad mood all day - edgy, bitter and frustrated beyond belief - and then sat down to write the concluding movement, and fruitlessly tried different ideas and then, finally, just said "oh, **** it" - and put that into writing. When I listen to it, I always get the feeling that it's only a matter of time until the bow of the cellist will hit me in the gut and rip my intestants out. And you gotta love music that does _that _to you.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> The *** ugly beginning of the 5th movement of the 4th string quartet is what made me really addicted to Bartok. Like he had been in a bad mood all day - edgy, bitter and frustrated beyond belief - and then sat down to write the concluding movement, and fruitlessly tried different ideas and then, finally, just said "oh, **** it" - and put that into writing. When I listen to it, I always get the feeling that it's only a matter of time until the bow of the cellist will hit me in the gut and rip my intestants out. And you gotta love music that does _that _to you.


Exactly! That aggressiveness and the unpredictable accents caught my attention. This is why I recommended this to metalheads 

The first movement is pretty ugly too, but it's not as powerful.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> Exactly! That aggressiveness and the unpredictable accents caught my attention. This is why I recommended this to metalheads
> 
> The first movement is pretty ugly too, but it's not as powerful.


Bartok was a master at using dissonance as an "effect." The way he builds tension in the strings in the piece "Divertimento" is quite delicious.


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## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> He's a composer that's difficult to understand at first... ...but I liked his music from the first few measures. I just connected with it immediately. There are some composers that we all listen to and it's as if we've heard this music all our lives, but we just didn't know where.


Extremely well said, Mirror Image! Your account, though seemingly self-contradictory, describes exactly what I have experienced with Bartók (and many other composers). I started quite unknowingly from his first two piano concertos (Pollini/Abbado/CSO). The result was disastrous: I was absolutely terrified by the difficulty and biting dissonance of the first and did not like its relatively more inviting successor at the time. But later when it came to his violin concerto No.2 (Szeryng/Haitink/Concertgebouw, packed with concertos by Shostakovitch, Elgar and Symanowski), I immediately fell in love with the music. It is now hard for me to characterize this 20th-century jewel, which is at once strict in form but "wicked" in mood. It certainly set me up to hear more form Bartók. I subsequently purchased his all too few but brilliant orchestral works and the intriguing string quartets, and even began to appreciate his piano concertos. The Decca Bluebeard (exquisitely sung and played by Berry/Ludwig/Kertész/LSO) has been one of my favorite discs for years. In 2007, I got the complete edition issued by Hungaroton and their new cycle scheduled to be released in 2011 has again caught my attention. I guess you can safely say that I am addicted to Bartók.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

xuantu said:


> Extremely well said, Mirror Image! Your account, though seemingly self-contradictory, describes exactly what I have experienced with Bartók (and many other composers). I unknowingly started from a CD I happened to be able to get, the first two piano concertos (Pollini/Abbado/CSO). I was absolutely terrified by the difficulty and biting dissonance of the first and did not like its relatively more inviting successor at the time. When it came to his violin concerto (No.2) played by Szeryng/Haitink/Concertgebouw (packed with concertos by Shostakovitch, Elgar and Symanowski), I immediately fell in love with the music. It is now hard for me to characterize this 20th-century jewel, which is at once strict in form but "wicked" in mood. But it certainly set me up to hear more form Bartók. I subsequently purchased his all too few but brilliant orchestral works and the intriguing string quartets, and even began to love his piano concertos. The Decca Bluebeard (exquisitely sung by Berry/Ludwig) has been one of my favorite disc for years. In 2007, I got the complete edition issued by Hungaroton and their new cycle scheduled to be released in 2011 has again caught by attention. I guess you can safely say that I am addicted to Bartók.


"Wicked" is a great word to use for Bartok, because his music is most definitely wicked. Barbaric and savage are also two good descriptive words to use.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Anyone a fan of Pierre Boulez's readings of Bartok? They are some of the best I've heard. There's a actually a box set out that collects all of Boulez's Bartok on Deutsche Grammophon if any of you are interested. I don't need it because I own all the individual releases.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I borrowed Boulez's Bartok _Piano Concertos _disc from the library a while back, & I think it's good. There are three different pianists for each of the concertos. But the best recording of those works I have heard is the lesser-known Bulgarian pianist Anton Dikov, who really brings out the percussiveness & barbarism (as people are saying) of these works. I got this tape when I was a teenager & still have it, I should have bought the cd, but I think I didn't have the money? Anyway, it's on the Festival label but I think by now it must surely be out of print. Sadly, I read on the internet that Dikov died in a car crash a few years ago, he was only in his 60's or so...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I borrowed Boulez's Bartok _Piano Concertos _disc from the library a while back, & I think it's good. There are three different pianists for each of the concertos. But the best recording of those works I have heard is the lesser-known Bulgarian pianist Anton Dikov, who really brings out the percussiveness & barbarism (as people are saying) of these works. I got this tape when I was a teenager & still have it, I should have bought the cd, but I think I didn't have the money? Anyway, it's on the Festival label but I think by now it must surely be out of print. Sadly, I read on the internet that Dikov died in a car crash a few years ago, he was only in his 60's or so...


I own all of Boulez's Bartok recordings except for "Bluebeard's Castle" recording he did. They're all excellent.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

starry said:


> There's other good quartets by other composers but they'll all get ignored in favour of Bartok and Shostakovich. I find that sad. No doubt Bartok did some good ones (like 6 & 4) but I won't accept musicologists who say other composers are worthless just because they aren't considered to have been as 'original'.


I don't remember reading any serious musicologist who suggested that.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I like his orchestral works: "Concerto for Orchestra," "Hungarian Pictures," "The Miraculous Mandarin," "Divertimento for Strings," "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta,"...


I thought you said atonality = nonsence. I was just listening to _Music for strings, percussion and celesta_ and the first movement is definately atonal; not serial or dodecaphonic, but simply atonal.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Mirror Image said that he liked Scriabin too. I think he has more problems with serialism than atonality or non-diatonicism.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> Mirror Image said that he liked Scriabin too. I think he has more problems with serialism than atonality or non-diatonicism.


Well, he did say that atonality = nonsence. He didn't specify whether he only meant serialism or atonality in general. And, in any case, I wouldn't go so far as to _assume_ what he meant or did not mean, so I'll just let _him_ clarify his words.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> I thought you said atonality = nonsence. I was just listening to _Music for strings, percussion and celesta_ and the first movement is definately atonal; not serial or dodecaphonic, but simply atonal.


Bartok used atonality as a tool and not as a means in itself. I'll have to go back and listen to "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta" to see what you mean, but Bartok always pushed the envelope between tonality and atonality. Go listen to "Divertimento." I love the way he uses atonality as a means of building tension. But as I have said many times, I don't mind atonality being used to get a point across, but for a whole piece of music to be completely atonal is not my cup of tea. I hope this clarifies my opinion for you.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> Mirror Image said that he liked Scriabin too. I think he has more problems with serialism than atonality or non-diatonicism.


I guess I do have more problems with serialism than atonality, but in all honesty, I think that atonality should only be used as a tool for building tension in a piece. Go listen to Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Stravinsky...they are masters of building this kind of tension in a piece.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't know what you mean "to get a point across". And also, the first movement of Strings, percussion and celesta is atonal from beginning to end.
Furthermore, what I quoted seemed fairly straight-forward: "atonality = nonsence". You didn't specify that atonality is ok, but only when used as a tool etc, etc, etc.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I guess I do have more problems with serialism than atonality, but in all honesty, I think that atonality should only be used as a tool for building tension in a piece. Go listen to Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Stravinsky...they are masters of building this kind of tension in a piece.


As far as I know, out of the composers you mentioned, *only* Stravinsky is atonal, and mostly during his "dodecaphonic" period. I'm not 100% sure though, I'll have to check.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> I don't know what you mean "to get a point across". And also, the first movement of Strings, percussion and celesta is atonal from beginning to end.
> Furthermore, what I quoted seemed fairly straight-forward: "atonality = nonsence". You didn't specify that atonality is ok, but only when used as a tool etc, etc, etc.


I think you should re-read what I have wrote and look back in this thread and others to understand my point.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> As far as I know, out of the composers you mentioned, *only* Stravinsky is atonal, and mostly during his "dodecaphonic" period. I'm not 100% sure though, I'll have to check.


Wrong, I said Shostakovich, Britten, Prokofiev *used* atonality as a way of building tension. Where did I say they were atonal composers? You might need some glasses.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Wrong, I said Shostakovich, Britten, Prokofiev *used* atonality as a way of building tension. Where did I say they were atonal composers? You might need some glasses.


OK, I'll buy new ones then. Tell me, where did they "use atonality as a way of bulding tension"? I don't know Britten and Shostakovitch so well, but I do know Prokofiev. And Prokofiev never "uses atonality". He just extends tonality and makes broad use of dissonance.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> OK, I'll buy new ones then. Tell me, where did they "use atonality as a way of bulding tension"? I don't know Britten and Shostakovitch so well, but I do know Prokofiev. And Prokofiev never "uses atonality". He just extends tonality and makes broad use of dissonance.


That's what I'm talking about dissonances. Britten, Bartok, Stravinsky, Shostakovich...they all use dissonances as a means of building tension. Atonality (i. e. dissonance) is the the same thing. Dissonance is atonality.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

_Atonality in its broadest sense describes music that lacks a tonal center, or key. Atonality in this sense usually describes compositions written from about 1908 to the present day where a hierarchy of pitches focusing on a single, central tone is not used and the notes of the chromatic scale function independently of one another (Anon. 1994). More narrowly, the term describes music that does not conform to the system of tonal hierarchies that characterized classical European music between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries (Lansky, Perle, and Headlam 2001).

More narrowly still, the term is used to describe music that is neither tonal nor serial, especially the pre-twelve-tone music of the Second Viennese School, principally Alban Berg, Arnold Schoenberg, and Anton Webern (Lansky, Perle, and Headlam 2001).

Composers such as *Alexander Scriabin, Claude Debussy, Béla Bartók, Paul Hindemith, Sergei Prokofiev, Igor Stravinsky,* and Edgard Varèse, however, have written music that has been described, in full or in part, as *atonal*._

[Taken from Wikipedia]

*I REST MY CASE!!!!*


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Atonality (i. e. dissonance) is the the same thing. Dissonance is atonality.


Hmm, no, it's not.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Hmm, no, it's not.


Look at the post above yours. You have a lot to learn about music young padawan.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

You go ahead and rest your case. But what you quoted form Wikipedia is... well, to put it bluntly, rubbish.

Ha, ha, listen to that: "Debussy has written atonal music"... What a joke!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> You go ahead and rest your case. But what you quoted form Wikipedia is... well, to put it bluntly, rubbish.
> 
> Ha, ha, listen to that: "Debussy has written atonal music"... What a joke!


No, the music you compose is what's rubbish.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> No, the music you compose is what's rubbish.


Ooops! You did it again! That's personal, and it has nothing to do with this thread.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

It's interesting how you *have to* resort to totally off topic, personal attacks in order to have the upper hand.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Ha, ha, listen to that: "Debussy has written atonal music"... What a joke!


I guess you've never explored Debussy's music before. Like I said, you have much to learn young padawan.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> It's interesting how you *have to* resort to totally off topic, personal attacks in order to have the upper hand.


I don't have to, but I did.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

1. I don't know what "padawan" is.

2. OK, then, I challenge you: name one piece in which Debussy uses atonality.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

But it has to be something of which you have the score.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> But it has to be something of which you have the score.


You never heard his ballet "Jeux"?


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I don't have to, but I did.


Oh... that's really lame...


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> You never heard his ballet "Jeux"?


Yes I have. Do you have the score? I don't have it, but I can listen to the CD very closely.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Yes I have. Do you have the score? I don't have it, but I can listen to the CD very closely.


No, I don't have the score, but you go listen to the CD. Now excuse me young padawan.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

I listened to it. Thrice. 

Is there tonal ambiguity? Yes.
Is there dissonance? Yes. (And please don't repeat that atonality = dissonance, this assertion is absurd)

I hear a lot of repetition of musical events / phrases, as well as a lot of juxtaposed non resolving seventh and ninth chords, which, needless to say, is characteristic of Debussy's overall style. Actually the work is full of them! 

But where are the atonal parts or moments in the work? I don't hear any.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> I listened to it. Thrice.
> 
> Is there tonal ambiguity? Yes.
> Is there dissonance? Yes. (And please don't repeat that atonality = dissonance, this assertion is absurd)
> ...


Please refer to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonality

I don't have time to waste explaining music to you. Perhaps some music lessons might do you some good?


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Please refer to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonality
> 
> I don't have time to waste explaining music to you. Perhaps some music lessons might do you some good?


Now it's clear that you don't want to (or can't) be specific. I'm starting to doubt whether or not you can actually support what you're saying with actual proof.

You suggested "Jeux" as an example of Debussy's use of atonality. Can you back it up or not?

Or are you afraid that _*I*_ might end up explaining music to *you[/B?]*


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Now it's clear that you don't want to (or can't) be specific. I'm starting to doubt whether or not you can actually support what you're saying with actual proof.
> 
> You suggested "Jeux" as an example of Debussy's use of atonality. Can you back it up or not?
> 
> Or are you afraid that _*I*_ might end up explaining music to *you[/B?]*


*

The only thing you need is explain is why do you compose such crappy music? That's what I want to know more than anything.*


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> The *only* thing you need is explain is why do you compose such crappy music? That's what I want to know more than anything.


Knock knock, is there anybody out there? You 're a liiittle bit _*off-topic*_ here my friend. Not to mention the fact that you evidently have some kind of personal problem with me specifically.

Carefull, you don't wanna get banned... yet again


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Knock knock, is there anybody out there? You 're a liiittle bit _*off-topic*_ here my friend. Not to mention the fact that you evidently have some kind of personal problem with me specifically.
> 
> Carefull, you don't wanna get banned... yet again


I don't have a problem with you. I have a problem with the music you compose.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Anyway...getting back to Bartok...

What are all of your impressions of Bartok's two ballets "The Miraculous Mandarin" and "The Wooden Prince"?


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I don't have a problem with you. I have a problem with the music you compose.


Off-topic!


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Anyway...getting back to Bartok...
> 
> What are all of your impressions of Bartok's two ballets "The Miraculous Mandarin" and "The Wooden Prince"?


We were discussing "Jeux", or have you forgotten about that already? How convenient.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> We were discussing "Jeux", or have you forgotten about that already? How convenient.


No, actually you were talking about it and I was telling you that you're wrong, which you are, and so BACK TO BARTOK.

Anyway, what are all of your impressions of Bartok's ballets "The Miraculous Mandarin" and "The Wooden Prince."

You know "The Wooden Prince" isn't recorded much, which is a shame, because it's my favorite of the two ballets he wrote.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> No, actually you were talking about it and I was telling you that you're wrong, which you are, and so BACK TO BARTOK.
> 
> Anyway, what are all of your impressions of Bartok's ballets "The Miraculous Mandarin" and "The Wooden Prince."
> 
> You know "The Wooden Prince" isn't recorded much, which is a shame, because it's my favorite of the two ballets he wrote.


Don't do that, don't hide behind your finger. You know that you're the one who accepted the challenge and suggested this specific work. You could have said no from the beginning. That way I wouldn't have wasted my time listening to the piece 3 times just to discuss it with you. Next time I'll know better.

As for Bartok, I know the Mandarin and not the Wooden prince.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Don't do that, don't hide behind your finger. You know that you're the one who accepted the challenge and suggested this specific work. You could have said no from the beginning. That way I wouldn't have wasted my time listening to the piece 3 times just to discuss it with you. Next time I'll know better.
> 
> As for Bartok, I know the Mandarin and not the Wooden prince.


So you call listening to Debussy a waste of time now? Good one.

Anyway, you need to hear "The Wooden Prince." You haven't heard Bartok until you've heard this ballet.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> So you call listening to Debussy a waste of time now? Good one.
> 
> Anyway, you need to hear "The Wooden Prince." You haven't heard Bartok until you've heard this ballet.


What on earth are you talking about? Did you or did you not mention *2* works, one of which I happen to know?

And what's this "you haven't heard Bartok until you've heard the prince"?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> And what's this "you haven't heard Bartok until you've heard the prince"?


It means exactly what it states: you *DON'T KNOW *Bartok's music, until you've heard "The Wooden Prince."


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> It means exactly what it states: you *DON'T KNOW *Bartok's music, until you've heard "The Wooden Prince."


You couldn't possibly think that this makes sense, could you?

That said, do you want to discuss the Mandarin, or the Concerto for orchestra, or the Music for strings, percussion.... or the piano concertos, or Bluebeard's castle, or the string quartets or... or ... or... a number of other works?


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## cultchas (Sep 19, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> THE I'M ADDICTED TO BARTOK THREAD​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another Bartok junkie here . My first Bartok experience many many years back was a product of customary curious purchase (of an artist I haven't heard whenever I have spare cash). It was an LP cut by Geza Anda and Ferenc Fricsay, Klavierkonzerte Nr. 2 und 3 (Deutsche Grammophon). I was so excited I discovered something interesting.A few days later I got another Bartok LP, with chamber music cuts on Hungaroton..... until it became a 2, 3, 4... month stretch of Bela CD/LP-hunt-and-listen habit.

On hindsight, these albums along with Alban Berg, John Cage, and Edgard Varese records paved way in my understanding 20th century classical and other types of music specially free and avant-garde jazz.

My favorites are the 2 albums above, Concerto For Orchestra (Fritz Ranier with Chicago Symphony), Bluebard's Castle (Boulez), Tanc-Suite, Ket Kep, and Divertimento for String Orchestra (Boulez).


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## tro shink (Nov 20, 2010)

The piano piece Allegro Barbaro was my introduction to Bartok, a Gyorgy Sandor recording on vinyl. I was hooked by the unusual timing, and the percussive use of the piano. Later, I explored his piano concertos, once again by Sandor, though I love Argerich's 3rd.


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## tro shink (Nov 20, 2010)

I heard the Divertimento for Strings played in Auckland around 4 years ago, and I was touched by the integration of folk music into the music. I could "see" peasants dancing, especially in the last movement. I have found the middle movement very disturbibg at times, as it sounds like someone about to go off the deep end.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I am relatively old to Bartok...LOL*

Well... I am 59 and he was my hero when I was a teenagaer, I love all his music without any exception...I love his early works (Ferenc Liszt influence) and his mature works (concertos for piano 1 and 2), and many others...less his 3rd concerto...I love also his cantata, his opera and his choral works...I love the fact that he had always considered the piano as a percussion instrument, in the music for piano, strings and Celesta he plays two notes with his thumb and the sound is terrific.

To be followed by others.

See you.

Martin Pitchon

:lol:


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Some of my first experiences with this composer...

Heard people talking about how much they loved him, so was curious.

Heard some of his music...

it was enough.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Youi are hard huilu...*

He's a great coposer...You have to be patient and follow every step. I loved him when I was a teenager...I think you're still a teenager...if I rememmber well, you are 17....aren't you?

The old Martin


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Some of my first experiences with this composer...
> 
> Heard people talking about how much they loved him, so was curious.
> 
> ...


Huilunsoittaja, you want to be careful where you start with Bartok. Maybe the 3rd Piano Concerto won't be as offensive to you - it's completely tonal, and without the dissonances of the first 2 two. However, he never really gives the same sort of melodic pleasure that Prokofiev offers - it's more in the rhythms, the textures, the harmonies... this may be the initial turn-off for you.

Personally, I came to love Bartok through the _Concerto for Orchestra_ and _The Wooden Prince_. The piece that turned me off at first, the _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta_, is now my favorite, along with the String Quartets.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

I first heard his fourth and fifth string quartet (went through a string quartet phase), and was hooked after that. I actually took a break, but returned by exploring his concerti (his 2nd violin and 2nd piano), then the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, etc.

He reminds me of Stravinsky's rhythms and beats; it's very exciting and unpredictable (e.g. first mvt of 5th string quartet, 2nd movement of Music for Strings). I love his dissonances as well.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bartok's were the first string quartets I ever bought as a complete cycle (the Takacs set on Decca). I'd read that King Crimson guitarist Robert Fripp was a big fan, and as I was a big fan of his band I bought them to see if I could hear any connection with/influence on King Crimson seeing both had a reputation for being able to produce knotty, propulsive music. Fast-forward c. 12 years on and it's still one of my favourite cycles and a big fan of Bartok's in general. As regards The Wooden Prince, Bartok musically makes the best of a bad job with a fairly banal story (incidentally by the same man who wrote the libretto to Duke Bluebeard's Castle, Bela Balazs). I prefer The Miraculous Mandarin because the music is more forward-looking and story more exotic and interesting.


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## tro shink (Nov 20, 2010)

Try the Naxos collection.


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## tro shink (Nov 20, 2010)

My 1st Bartokian experience was the classical rock group Emerson Lake and Palmer doing a cover of Bartok's piano piece Allegro Barbaro. They called it The Barbarian. From there I heard the original piece, and explored his piano music . I really became hooked when I heard a recording of the Music for strings, percussion and celesta. I like the 3 piano cocncertos, which I 1st heard recorded by Gyorgy Sandor, who did the premiers I believe. Tro Shink


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## tro shink (Nov 20, 2010)

I can relate to what you are saying TresPicos. When I 1st heard his piano concerto #1, I was shocked as to the brutality of the piece. I wonder if he broke any pianos playing this piece?


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