# Seeking feedback on Webern & Berg



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

I have been listening to Arnold Schoenberg for some time now, so I am seeking advice to acquire the best compositions of both Anton Webern & Alban Berg. I am in the process of building out my CM library in this area, so I seek the forum membership recommendations on either and/or both composers. I have found that the input from this forum has been invaluable in my pursuit of this process. Perhaps 3 - 5 of your choices will lead me in the correct direction. I thank you for your input.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Floeddie's enrolling into the Second Viennese School?
We want Floeddie to get straight "A"s - Triple "A"s - AAA (Arnold, Anton & Alban)

If this was 30 years ago, then I'd say acquire this 1992 Koch Schwann CD:










This was/is my gateway album into Webern; if you are able to get this disc, then this is my recommendation for Anton von W.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

For *Alban Berg* here are six much-liked compositions from various periods in his life:

1. Violin Concerto
2. Seven Early Songs
3. Piano Sonata, op. 1
4._ Wozzeck _(opera)
5. Lyric Suite (string quartet ), or Three Pieces for Clarinet and Piano

For *Webern*, Prodromides' choice of going for orchestral compositions is great, but the Piano Variations are a good way of sneaking into his serial (12-tone) music. If you're into voice and piano there's a significant amount of music by both composers, plus quite a few Webern choral works.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

IIRC, Kegel/Berlin Classics and Sinopoli/Teldec (warner) have very good one disc anthologies with all/most of Webern's orchestral music. Sinopoli also has the early still late romantic "Im Sommerwind" (Another indication that almost all of the dreaded modernists could write good to exceptional in late romantic style, they didn't abandon that style because of their inability to excel in it.) Boulez/DG has Webern spread over several discs including vocal music.
For Berg, I'd recommend Abbado/DG with 3 orchestral pieces, Altenberg-Lieder, Lulu-Suite (M. Price, soprano). The Lyric suite has been recorded by many major string quartets (note that the string orchestra version has only 3 of 6 movements!, you will probably get this as filler somewhere but it cannot replace the original).


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Webern: Complete Edition*

Christiane Oelze (soprano), Eric Schneider (piano), Gerald Finley (baritone), Pierre-Laurent Aimard (piano), Francoise Pollet (soprano), Mary McCormick (mezzo-soprano), Gidon Kremer (violin), Oleg Maisenberg (piano), Clemens Hagen (cello), Krystian Zimerman (piano)

*Berliner Philharmoniker, BBC Singers, Ensemble InterContemporain, Pierre Boulez*


Link to Presto Music page which lists the complete contents - 









Webern: Complete Edition


Webern: Complete Edition. DG: 4576372. Buy download online. Christiane Oelze (soprano), Eric Schneider (piano), Gerald Finley (baritone), Pierre-Laurent Aimard (piano), Francoise Pollet (soprano), Mary McCormick (mezzo-soprano), Gidon Kremer (violin), Oleg Maisenberg (piano), Clemens Hagen...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete edition - 162 selections - which you can access here - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_krBBbmeQv4ajwMMldrpdFoMKC1qIOlY7Q


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Pierre Boulez Edition: Berg*

*New York Philharmonic Orchestra, BBC Symphony Orchestra, London Symphony Orchestra, Orchestra & Chorus of the Paris National Opera, Pierre Boulez*

Link to Presto Music page which lists the complete contents -









Pierre Boulez Edition: Berg


Pierre Boulez Edition: Berg. Sony: G0100034767858. Buy download online. Judith Blegen (soprano), Jessye Norman (soprano), Saschko Gawriloff (violin), Daniel Barenboim (piano), Pinchas Zukerman (violin), Ann Schein (piano), Walter Berry (Wozzeck), Richard van Vrooman (Andres), Ingeborg Lasser...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete edition - 69 selections - which you can access here -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lFvh2Fx7FCURIogYTh8c7ToGuBPkhDdAw


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Prodromides said:


> Floeddie's enrolling into the Second Viennese School?
> We want Floeddie to get straight "A"s - Triple "A"s - AAA (Arnold, Anton & Alban)
> 
> If this was 30 years ago, then I'd say acquire this 1992 Koch Schwann CD:
> ...


Having cut my atonal teeth on Zappa (can you say Varese?) over the years, it finally makes sense to me! It's like this: If I can listen to Japanese & Korean speakers and make sense of it, I can do it with the AAA trio. A fine pursuit it is, and all starting points are very appreciated.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> For Berg, I'd recommend Abbado/DG with 3 orchestral pieces, Altenberg-Lieder, Lulu-Suite (M. Price, soprano).


Yes, a very excellent disc....early Abbado, beautifully played and recorded...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Alban Berg's music is more romantic than either Schoenberg or Webern. Schoenberg's early music is late romantic but his 12 tone music strikes me as more arithmatic than human. Berg is always passionate. Webern is somewhere between the two -- a diagonal you might say.

Berg's *Violin Concerto* is probably the greatest single 12 tone piece. It has many fine recordings. I like Ivry Gitlis and a newer recording from Antje Weithass whose reading is more subdued and tender than just about any I have heard. She indeed mourn's the loss of the child the concerto is written for rather than expressing the dismay and anger of most renditions.

I would say Berg's second-best composition, outside his operas, is his *Chamber Concerto for Violin, Piano and 13 Wind Instruments*. A modern recording of this on a recording known as* Wien 1925* is more humane and understanding than any other version I have heard. It contrasts the Berg concerto with Strauss waltz reconstructions by the Second Viennese School composers.








I wouldn't expect you could enjoy a Berg opera if you have never heard his work but might refer you to the *Lulu Suite* from the opera of the same name. It is a five-movement suite of music from the opera that gives you a flavor of the whole thing. I listen to a rendition by Ormandy and Philadelphia Orchestra.

Webern wrote one famous late romantic piece -- *Im Sommerwind,* the summer wind. It is worth a whirl. His most accessible 12 tone music is *Three Pieces for Orchestra* and *Five Orchestral Works*. Webern also wrote an 8-minute *Symphony *and his *Passacaglia Op. 1* is worth knowing.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Floeddie said:


> I have been listening to Arnold Schoenberg for some time now, so I am seeking advice to acquire the best compositions of both Anton Webern & Alban Berg. I am in the process of building out my CM library in this area, so I seek the forum membership recommendations on either and/or both composers. I have found that the input from this forum has been invaluable in my pursuit of this process. Perhaps 3 - 5 of your choices will lead me in the correct direction. I thank you for your input.


Wozzeck is really fun music. Actually, fun is probably not the word, but it's a good experiencw. Try and see a decent production. I like this one, even though it's a bit old now

Alban Berg: Wozzeck [DVD] [2007] [NTSC]: Amazon.co.uk: Alban Berg, Calixto Bieito: DVD & Blu-ray

Lulu is more challenging out of the opera house, though it can be a good night out I think. There's a Lulu suite I think (not totally sure.)

As far as Webern is concerned, the instrumental pieces which I find really enjoyable are the Op. 7 duos and the op 24 concerto. The vocal music, songs, are lovely, there’s a recording with Dorothy Dorow.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

For Webern I'd recommend this one. If you read music I'd also recommend getting hold of as many scores as you can and understand what Webern is up to.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Lots of good steers so far that I would fully endorse.

I would add this and say no record collection can be without it (IMVHO)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I wonder why they felt the need to put the info that the disc was manufactured in Austria but packaged in the Netherlands on a cover sticker?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

For Webern, I'd strongly recommend this........


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

My favourite Berg vc


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> Lots of good steers so far that I would fully endorse.
> 
> I would add this and say no record collection can be without it (IMVHO)
> 
> View attachment 173884


As Penelope said in Joyce's Ulysses, "And yes I said yes I will yes." (I know she was talking about something else, but it fits here also.)


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I bought this disc when it came out and it's my _current_ go-to for Berg's 3 Orchestral Pieces.

Despite a claim that the vc on here is unidiomatic, I think it's superb - as are the songs.

Terrific sound quality and a very good modern disc, all-round.......


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Wozzeck is really fun music. Actually, fun is probably not the word, but it's a good experience.
> 
> As far as Webern is concerned, the instrumental pieces which I find really enjoyable are the Op. 7 duos and the op 24 concerto. The vocal music, songs, are lovely, there’s a recording with Dorothy Dorow.


I don't like much opera, but I do like Wozzeck. (As they say, but I wouldn't want my sister to marry him.)

Dorothy Dorow's recording with Reinbert de Leeuw was what opened my eyes to Webern's vocal music, which can be challenging. Back in the day, people used to think it was proper to sing Webern clinically, but she made it sound more human.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

[Deleted post.]


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I wonder why they felt the need to put the info that the disc was manufactured in Austria but packaged in the Netherlands on a cover sticker?


Beats me. It was stuck on the shrinkwrap of mine so went into the trash anyway. Could be just telling you that it wasn't made in China, unlike just about everything else.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

2 more essentials.................

Levine & Dorati


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Prodromides said:


> Floeddie's enrolling into the Second Viennese School?


The Vienna Secondary School


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Floeddie said:


> (can you say Varese?)


Been said ... voted that:

Verify valuable Varèse via vote! | Classical Music Forum (talkclassical.com)


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Floeddie said:


> Having cut my atonal teeth on Zappa (can you say Varese?) over the years, it finally makes sense to me! It's like this: If I can listen to Japanese & Korean speakers and make sense of it, I can do it with the AAA trio. A fine pursuit it is, and all starting points are very appreciated.


HAH, Frank Zappa ... the old rockster. OK, good enough, and when I was a teen-ager, I remember some of his compositions ("Plastic People"), etc. Well, obviously, we've gone beyond THAT point of the past ... and do you have ANY recommendations of the "AAA" people, including Anton von W, Arnold, or Mr. Alban Berg?


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Floeddie said:


> I have been listening to Arnold Schoenberg for some time now, so I am seeking advice to acquire the best compositions of both Anton Webern & Alban Berg. I am in the process of building out my CM library in this area, so I seek the forum membership recommendations on either and/or both composers. I have found that the input from this forum has been invaluable in my pursuit of this process. Perhaps 3 - 5 of your choices will lead me in the correct direction. I thank you for your input.


BTW, one can hardly think of more-DIFFICULT composer, of the atonal (or aphoriistic) school, than the young man who was shot, accidentally, in WW2 ... Anton von Webern. Schoenberg, Webern and even, Berg ... found it NECESSARY to try to extend the symphonic/tonal ways that were supposed to go "past" the greats of the past, or even Debussy, Ravel, Vaughan-Williams and others of an age. Maybe this school chose one of the most-difficult of tasks, overall, considering - eh? In any case, I'd always vote-for "Wozzeck", or Schoenberg's "Verklarte Nacht", or the Berg Violin Concerto (in memory of the "Ange" ... Manon Gropius), for any true, extended listening to these fine gentlemen.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

89Koechel said:


> HAH, Frank Zappa ... the old rockster. OK, good enough, and when I was a teen-ager, I remember some of his compositions ("Plastic People"), etc. Well, obviously, we've gone beyond THAT point of the past ... and do you have ANY recommendations of the "AAA" people, including Anton von W, Arnold, or Mr. Alban Berg?


Zappa was more than an "old rockster", and some people who enjoy CM still like his music.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Floeddie said:


> Zappa was more than an "old rockster", and some people who enjoy CM still like his music.


Thanks, Floeddie ... and I won't ARGUE with you, about Frank Z. I liked "The Kinks" and others (Byrds) when I was a teen-ager. Ol' Zap had a fine band, of his time. Well, maybe, by this time, I still try to figure-out the complexities ... or simplicities ... of Anton v B, Mr. Arnold Schoenberg ... and Alban B. I still think that Alban Berg was the most-accessible of all, considering his Chamber Symphony (esp. in an old recording with the great, Russian pianist - Sviatoslav Richter), the Violin Concerto ... and that "off-beat" old opera ... "Wozzeck".


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Manxfeeder said:


> I don't like much opera, but I do like Wozzeck.


I think it's my favorite opera, next to Wagner's Parsifal.
It's a miracle that a piece that's basically a cool, modern assemblage of abstract musical forms (including a symphony that forms the second act!) can make such a huge emotional impact. It explains the piece's popularity: the formal strictness appeals to lovers of symphonic and chamber music, while traditional opera lovers will find more than enough emotion to their liking. It's a very accessible opera too, immediately gripping and powerful, much more so than Lulu, which - while being an equally worthy expression of Berg's geniality - is a much tougher nut to crack.

Part of the appeal is Büchner's wonderful text, of course. As an edgy teenager, I used to be obsessed with Büchner's play (my other obsession was E. A. Poe...), it's a strikingly modern, tragic tale that was tailored to Alban Berg's warm, human atonal style. There's hardly another example of an opera libretto and music being a full century apart and still being in perfect symbiosis. And the last scene is maybe the most devastatingly tragic one in all opera.

I grew up with Karl Böhm's classic recording, with a legendary cast that's still unbeatable.










Abbado's version is great as well, and so is Dohnanyi's.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Floeddie said:


> Zappa was more than an "old rockster", and some people who enjoy CM still like his music.


True! And Plastic People is not one of his "compositions". It's a song about phony people sung to the tune, Louie, Louie.

As far as Webern, and Berg are concerned, neither body of work is that extensive so just get all of their music. There's a great 2 CD set of Berg on EMI that makes for an excellent introduction. You can probably find used copies. And there's the Webern 3 disc set on Sony.









Also includes Three Orchestral Pieces, 7 Early Songs, piano sonata, Four Pieces for Clarinet and Piano. Wozzeck orchestral interlude.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

89Koechel said:


> Thanks, Floeddie ... and I won't ARGUE with you, about Frank Z. I liked "The Kinks" and others (Byrds) when I was a teen-ager. Ol' Zap had a fine band, of his time. Well, maybe, by this time, I still try to figure-out the complexities ... or simplicities ... of Anton v B, Mr. Arnold Schoenberg ... and Alban B. I still think that Alban Berg was the most-accessible of all, considering his Chamber Symphony (esp. in an old recording with the great, Russian pianist - Sviatoslav Richter), the Violin Concerto ... and that "off-beat" old opera ... "Wozzeck".


Zappa was controversial because of his "comedy music" as he called it. I sometimes wonder how far he would have gotten without it.

Frank was full of oppositional behavior, but he was who he was. Because of his attitude, I think that many listeners were put off by it, & I personally believe that his "shock" behavior damaged his reputation with those who didn't appreciate and/or approve of his message. Ultimately, it didn't help him, but hey, as he once said, "I'm an equal opportunity basher".

Zappa reaped what he sowed.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

BTW, FZ was a huge Webern fan. How many popular musicians that appeared on the Mike Douglas Show mentioned Anton Webern? Zappa sowed a lot of great seeds. He turned rock fans on to many of the great modern composers. And he was one himself. Just get past the lyrics and listen to the music. Listeners might want to try the same with Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg instead of recoiling at the idea of serial music.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

There's no recoiling here!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Floeddie said:


> There's no recoiling here!


There's been plenty of it at this forum over the years. Thankfully some of the antagonizers are no longer around.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Floeddie said:


> There's no recoiling here!


When is Floeddie gonna start a Darmstadt summer thread (or a Warsaw Autumn thread)?


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Wish I could be there... I am a retired desert rat in Arizona


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RobertJTh said:


> I think it's my favorite opera, next to Wagner's Parsifal.
> It's a miracle that a piece that's basically a cool, modern assemblage of abstract musical forms (including a symphony that forms the second act!) can make such a huge emotional impact. It explains the piece's popularity: the formal strictness appeals to lovers of symphonic and chamber music, while traditional opera lovers will find more than enough emotion to their liking. It's a very accessible opera too, immediately gripping and powerful, much more so than Lulu, which - while being an equally worthy expression of Berg's geniality - is a much tougher nut to crack.
> 
> Part of the appeal is Büchner's wonderful text, of course. As an edgy teenager, I used to be obsessed with Büchner's play (my other obsession was E. A. Poe...), it's a strikingly modern, tragic tale that was tailored to Alban Berg's warm, human atonal style. There's hardly another example of an opera libretto and music being a full century apart and still being in perfect symbiosis. And the last scene is maybe the most devastatingly tragic one in all opera.
> ...


If you like Berg’s Wozzeck then try Britten’s Peter Grimes. Similar structure, similar concept.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Another musician who was impressed by Webern is Anthony Braxton - in his Four Orchestras. I think it’s really impressive music actually.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

As far as the thread topic goes, I can only repeat what others have said.

Webern:
Passacaglia for orchestra
Five Pieces for orchestra
Variations for orchestra

Berg:
Chamber concerto
Three pieces for orchestra
Violin concerto
Kammerkonzert, piano, violin, and 13 winds



Mandryka said:


> Another musician who was impressed by Webern is Anthony Braxton - in his Four Orchestras. I think it’s really impressive music actually.


Also, contemporary, progressive big band composer and leader, Darcy James Argue, uses 12 tone in some of his music.






One of my favorite metal guitarists, Ron Jarzombek, wrote some 12 tone music for his band, Blotted Science.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Thanks, Floeddie ... and I won't ARGUE with you, about Frank Z. I liked "The Kinks" and others (Byrds) when I was a teen-ager. Ol' Zap had a fine band, of his time. Well, maybe, by this time, I still try to figure-out the complexities ... or simplicities ... of Anton v B, Mr. Arnold Schoenberg ... and Alban B. I still think that Alban Berg was the most-accessible of all, considering his Chamber Symphony (esp. in an old recording with the great, Russian pianist - Sviatoslav Richter), the Violin Concerto ... and that "off-beat" old opera ... "Wozzeck".


Zappa was so much more than a "rock" musician. 

He composed plenty of classical music.

Much of his "rock band" music, still has more than it's share of late 20th century classical influences. Inca Roads, is a perfect example.

And, he also had plenty of jazz influenced material, like the album, Waka Jawaka.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

There was a fourth member of the Second Viennese School aside from Schoenberg, Webern and Berg -- Schoenberg's student *Hanss Eisler.* He is best known for some esoteric, communist compositions like the Hollywood Songbook and German Symphony -- where he worked with Bertold Brecht on texts -- and was the first of Schoenberg's student to compose in 12 tone form.He is not well-known as a dodecaphonic composer; his stuff is more accessible such as Five Orchestral Works here. I like Eisler more than any of the other Second Viennese School composers.


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