# Henri Dutilleux



## Mirror Image

WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH HENRI DUTILLEUX














I heard a piece by him today on AOL Radio called "L'Arbre des Songes," which is his violin concerto and I've got to say I'm not impressed. I did some research on him and it seems he's being compared to Debussy and Ravel? I fail to see this connection. Perhaps he's linked to Debussy because his music is freer, but the difference between these two composers is rather large. Debussy relies on chordal harmony whereas Dutilleux seems to rely on just randomness. Am I missing something here?

Please somebody try to explain to me why, if I enjoy Ravel and Debussy, I would enjoy Dutilleux's music? Is this another case of the media trying to link a composer to another more tonal composer in order to sell records?


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## Guest

I'm not sure I'd even want to compare Debussy and Ravel, for that matter. Two very different composers.

Dutilleux might be said to be in a tradition of French music which is just as interested in sound and sonority as it is in development, and is hence less tied to traditional tonality. But one could almost say that of French music generally. Certainly since Berlioz.

Dutilleux has written a lot of music, too, more than just that violin concerto. Symphonies, string quartets, other orchestral music. I'd agree that Dutilleux doesn't _sound_ much like Debussy or Ravel (I'd also agree that those two don't sound like each other), but the violin concerto does have a few sonorities quite reminiscent of Debussy.

Listen to some more of his works to get a sense of him. And maybe even listen some more to the not at all random _L'Arbre des Songes,_ too. (Remember, I think "random" is fine. I just don't think it describes Dutilleux's piece. Any of his pieces.) I don't, however, think that if one likes Debussy and Ravel that that will mean that they will like Dutilleux, too. Dutilleux's from a different time and is interested in different things. People who like Claude Vivier might like Dutilleux, maybe, or who like Gerard Grisey or even Klaus Huber.


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## Mirror Image

some guy said:


> I'm not sure I'd even want to compare Debussy and Ravel, for that matter. Two very different composers.
> 
> Dutilleux might be said to be in a tradition of French music which is just as interested in sound and sonority as it is in development, and is hence less tied to traditional tonality. But one could almost say that of French music generally. Certainly since Berlioz.
> 
> Dutilleux has written a lot of music, too, more than just that violin concerto. Symphonies, string quartets, other orchestral music. I'd agree that Dutilleux doesn't _sound_ much like Debussy or Ravel (I'd also agree that those two don't sound like each other), but the violin concerto does have a few sonorities quite reminiscent of Debussy.
> 
> Listen to some more of his works to get a sense of him. And maybe even listen some more to the not at all random _L'Arbre des Songes,_ too. (Remember, I think "random" is fine. I just don't think it describes Dutilleux's piece. Any of his pieces.) I don't, however, think that if one likes Debussy and Ravel that that will mean that they will like Dutilleux, too. Dutilleux's from a different time and is interested in different things. People who like Claude Vivier might like Dutilleux, maybe, or who like Gerard Grisey or even Klaus Huber.


Thanks for the information. The piece I heard was his violin concerto (aka L'Arbre des Songes).

I'm just curious why people would compare his music to that of Ravel or Debussy? I would also like to know why they would think I, a hardcore Ravel and Debussy fan, would enjoy his music?


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> I would also like to know why they would think I, a hardcore Ravel and Debussy fan, would enjoy his music?


Yes, that is the puzzle. I do like all three, myself, but my reasons for liking Debussy and Ravel are quite different from my reasons for liking Dutilleux. I think your marketing theory probably hits the mark. Coupla suits think they can get people to buy CDs by X because they already like A and B. So likely to NOT work, I'd guess!!


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## Mirror Image

some guy said:


> Yes, that is the puzzle. I do like all three, myself, but my reasons for liking Debussy and Ravel are quite different from my reasons for liking Dutilleux. I think your marketing theory probably hits the mark. Coupla suits think they can get people to buy CDs by X because they already like A and B. So likely to NOT work, I'd guess!!


No, it doesn't work and I don't buy into what the press says anyway. I was just curious, because even normal reviewers were comparing him to Debussy and Ravel. Do you own this box set with Tortelier and the BBC Philharmonic?










From the reviews I've read, it's supposed to be one of the best sets available (not that there's much to choose from).


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## Sid James

I've read that Dutilleux's _Cello Concerto _is one of the finest in the repertoire, but I've not had a chance to get it yet...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I've read that Dutilleux's _Cello Concerto _is one of the finest in the repertoire, but I've not had a chance to get it yet...


I seriously doubt it, Andre.


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## Sid James

I don't think it's wise to dismiss a composer just based on listening to one work, like you are doing?

For example, I'm not a big fan of Elgar's orchestral works, but I like his chamber works quite alot.

I think every composer has something, if even a little to offer, to us perceptive listeners. It's easy to find something to like if you dig around a bit...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I don't think it's wise to dismiss a composer just based on listening to one work, like you are doing?
> 
> For example, I'm not a big fan of Elgar's orchestral works, but I like his chamber works quite alot.
> 
> I think every composer has something, if even a little to offer, to us perceptive listeners. It's easy to find something to like if you dig around a bit...


I disagree whole-heartedly. It's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of do you feel something emotionally from it and from what I've heard today I didn't feel anything, sorry to disappoint you.


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## Sid James

Well then why put up a thread about a composer who you are inevitably negative on anyway? What's your point? Time and time again on this forum, you have shown a total distaste for anything post WW2 (or post 1913 The Rite of Spring dare I say?). But you must remember that your inability to understand is not a measure of the quality of the music...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Well then why put up a thread about a composer who you are inevitably negative on anyway? What's your point? Time and time again on this forum, you have shown a total distaste for anything post WW2 (or post 1913 The Rite of Spring dare I say?). But you must remember that your inability to understand is not a measure of the quality of the music...


And something being "experimental" doesn't constitute quality music either.


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## Guest

Mirror, I have the three Arte Nova discs with Hans Graf and one Arditti disc on Montaigne.

Otherwise, I'd like you to give this comment another look: "It's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of do you feel something emotionally from it." Wouldn't you say that the emotional feelings depend on how you're perceiving? When I was young, I didn't get anything emotionally from Sibelius. But I set aside a week to listen to nothing else. My perceptions changed, and I felt all sorts of emotions listening to his music. 

In other words, can you be sure that what you don't like today you will continue to dislike tomorrow? I know I can't be. I've been caught too many times by the beauties of composers I thought I disliked. Scelsi, Mahler, Berlioz, Prokofiev.


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## rojo

Andre said:


> I don't think it's wise to dismiss a composer just based on listening to one work...


I would agree with that. Sometimes two works by the same composer are as different as night and day.

I don't see much of a connection between the works of Debussy and Ravel, and Dutilleux (aside from the 'Frenchness'?) either. Perhaps a stronger similarity could be found between the styles of Dutilleux and Poulenc. Although, still not all that similar. Bah.

I'm familiar with Dutilleux's Sonata for Oboe and Piano; not a walk in the park to play. Nice work though.


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## TresPicos

Mirror Image said:


> WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH HENRI DUTILLEUX
> I heard a piece by him today on AOL Radio called "L'Arbre des Songes," which is his violin concerto and I've got to say I'm not impressed. I did some research on him and it seems he's being compared to Debussy and Ravel? I fail to see this connection. Perhaps he's linked to Debussy because his music is freer, but the difference between these two composers is rather large. Debussy relies on chordal harmony whereas Dutilleux seems to rely on just randomness. Am I missing something here?
> 
> Please somebody try to explain to me why, if I enjoy Ravel and Debussy, I would enjoy Dutilleux's music? Is this another case of the media trying to link a composer to another more tonal composer in order to sell records?​



I can't see any connection between Dutilleux and Ravel/Debussy either. Although, I think I heard a tiny touch of Ravel somewhere in Dutilleux' fantastic Piano sonata.

But to mention them in the same sentence is strange. If someone reads it and buys some Dutilleux records because he likes Ravel and Debussy, then he's in for a surprise. And probably a negative one, since Dutilleux is quite modern and difficult. The first time I heard Dutilleux, I didn't "get" him at all.

Nowadays, I really like Dutilleux. In the works I've heard by him, he clearly has a style of his own. Soft and dissonant, almost meditative (for me at least) and very "fresh". I got the same feeling when I first listened to Schoenberg's Drei Klavierstücke. It was like nothing I've ever heard before. Totally unpredictable and, well... random.

But there are different kinds of random, I guess. To me, "random and soft" is way easier to listen to and find pleasure in than "random and loud".

Apart from the piano sonata, I also really like the Mystère de l'Instant, with its eerie strings.​


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## Mirror Image

What I dislike is the randomness of Dutilleux's music. It just seems to lack any kind of melody and the harmonies aren't to my liking.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> And something being "experimental" doesn't constitute quality music either.


Of course it doesn't! And I can understand the reasons you said this. I mean, I too get irritated when several younger composers write so much crap and take it for granted that they're gonna receive the attention they want just because the wrote something too "avant-gardish"... God knows, at the conservatory and the university the "experimental" ideal in composition has so much permeated the circle of musicians / composers that it's vitrually impossible to fight against.

However, given the fact that there indeed are several -if not many- really good composers after WWII, I think it would be best to make the right distinctions regarding "experimental" music, that is, not dismiss it from the start. Let some room for things you haven't yet heard and might be surprisingly good.


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## handlebar

His symphonies are "ok" at best. I have not delved into much else except for a few piano and chamber pieces. I certainly would not put him in league with Ravel or Debussy. Not even close.

Jim


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## bdelykleon

Last week I heard Dutilleux for the first time, and I liked a lot, don't have much to say since it was only one hearing, but I don't think Dutilleux can be called experimental in any sense.

Now i'm listening to his cello concerto.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> However, given the fact that there indeed are several -if not many- really good composers after WWII, I think it would be best to make the right distinctions regarding "experimental" music, that is, not dismiss it from the start. Let some room for things you haven't yet heard and might be surprisingly good.


I don't doubt that there are a few composers after WWII that are good, but I have yet to hear any and quite frankly I'm just turned off right now by what I have heard from Dutilleux.

I'm more into the Romantic and early 20th Century periods and with good reason, because it is these periods that I feel contained the best music.


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## Guest

There are many fine composers post WWII. Dutilleux being one of them. Not one of the leaders, would I say, but a good solid composer nonetheless.

One thing to note, however, reading one of the subtexts of both Handlebar and Mirror Image, and that is that many post-WWII composers are not trying to accomplish the same things that romantic or even early twentieth century composers were trying to accomplish, so cannot be judged by those criteria.

It's fine to prefer romantic and early twenty century, I did so myself for many years, but be careful of substituting a preference for an absolute about quality. Romantic music is not superior to that of the past fifty or sixty years; it's just different. 

I know that post-WWII music is enjoyable and satisfying. I've proven that on my own ears. I also know that pre-WWII music is enjoyable and satisfying. Equally so? I couldn't say. Different. When I need what only Brahms can give, I listen to Brahms. When I need what only Xenakis can give, I listen to Xenakis.

Wouldn't want to be without either.


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## bdelykleon

Dutilleux is a great composer, just listened to the Cello concerto (I still prefer Lutoslawski's) and his second symphony, which is probably the best numbered symphonist of the late 20th century. Dutilleux's caring of orchestral sound is quite enjoyable.


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## Mirror Image

some guy said:


> There are many fine composers post WWII. Dutilleux being one of them. Not one of the leaders, would I say, but a good solid composer nonetheless.
> 
> One thing to note, however, reading one of the subtexts of both Handlebar and Mirror Image, and that is that many post-WWII composers are not trying to accomplish the same things that romantic or even early twentieth century composers were trying to accomplish, so cannot be judged by those criteria.
> 
> It's fine to prefer romantic and early twenty century, I did so myself for many years, but be careful of substituting a preference for an absolute about quality. Romantic music is not superior to that of the past fifty or sixty years; it's just different.
> 
> I know that post-WWII music is enjoyable and satisfying. I've proven that on my own ears. I also know that pre-WWII music is enjoyable and satisfying. Equally so? I couldn't say. Different. When I need what only Brahms can give, I listen to Brahms. When I need what only Xenakis can give, I listen to Xenakis.
> 
> Wouldn't want to be without either.


I realize that modern music has a different set of prerogatives and goals, but I just can't get past the general sound of a lot of modern music. It just sounds so misplaced and random. I just don't hear those lush harmonies and beautiful melodies that characterize Romantic music and early 20th Century music.

It just seems that there's not a clear cut expression found in modern music, there's too many distractions from making the music enjoyable. I like music that's a little more straight-forward.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> I don't doubt that there are a few composers after WWII that are good, but I have yet to hear any and quite frankly I'm just turned off right now by what I have heard from Dutilleux.
> 
> I'm more into the Romantic and early 20th Century periods and with good reason, because it is these periods that I feel contained the best music.


I disagree about the romantic and early 20th periods containing the "best" music. But even if that is the case, do you like this music for that particular reason, or maybe because it so happens that these styles appeal to you more than others? I mean, is it preference based on quality or style?

My point is this: there may be quite a lot of composers that are indeed really good, but for some reason we don't like them. Well that's to be expected: you can't possibly like everyone who's considered good. There are many good composers after WWII, but you can't like all of them, just as you can't dismiss all of them.

For instance, I recognize the value of composers like Bruckner, Wolf, Dvorak and many others, but I really don't enjoy listening to their music. That might change in the future of course. I used to get really bored of Mozart and now...


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> I disagree about the romantic and early 20th periods containing the "best" music. But even if that is the case, do you like this music for that particular reason, or maybe because it so happens that these styles appeal to you more than others? I mean, is it preference based on quality or style?
> 
> My point is this: there may be quite a lot of composers that are indeed really good, but for some reason we don't like them. Well that's to be expected: you can't possibly like everyone who's considered good. There are many good composers after WWII, but you can't like all of them, just as you can't dismiss all of them.
> 
> For instance, I recognize the value of composers like Bruckner, Wolf, Dvorak and many others, but I really don't enjoy listening to their music. That might change in the future of course. I used to get really bored of Mozart and now...


I like the Romantic and early 20th Century periods, because they contain the music that means the most to me. All of those wonderful styles I enjoy are found in these periods like Impressionism and Neo-Classicism, for example.

I'm just having a hard time finding a Modern composer that hits me instantly with a style that I find appealing, but this doesn't mean I won't keep trying of course.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> I'm just having a hard time finding a Modern composer that hits me instantly with a style that I find appealing, but this doesn't mean I won't keep trying of course.


Well... the only post-WWII composer that "hit me instantly" was George Crumb. In all other cases I had to devote more time to listening. I don't know... Maybe the live performances of contemporary works helped the situation. Most of the contemporary composers I know are form live performances of their works.


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## Dim7

Mirror Image said:


> I realize that modern music has a different set of prerogatives and goals, but I just can't get past the general sound of a lot of modern music. It just sounds so misplaced and random. I just don't hear those lush harmonies and beautiful melodies that characterize Romantic music and early 20th Century music.
> 
> It just seems that there's not a clear cut expression found in modern music, there's too many distractions from making the music enjoyable. I like music that's a little more straight-forward.


Emphasis on the "little more" - Romantic (esp. late romantic) and early 20th century music is hardly particularly straightforward! But I guess it's "straightforward" compared to über-cryptic modernism.


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## Guest

And there's nothing about any contemporary music that seems cryptic to me, über or otherwise. To some listeners, contemporary music sounds like gibberish, just as Czech might sound to an English speaker. Hence my aside awhile back that Dutilleux, whatever else he may be, is not at all random, any more than the Czech language is.

That puts us squarely back on the cycle, which I'd like to see us break out of, of people who don't know Czech making pronouncements on its incomprehensibility, of people from Poland, say, talking as if the little Czech they understand being the only Czech worth talking about, and the native speakers (and those who have become fluent) saying simply that it's not incomprehensible at all, if you understand it, for which mild observation they are routinely traduced, either with direct attacks or accusations that their defense of Czech's comprehensibility is in itself an attack of those sane and thoughtful people who don't understand a word of that crazy gibberish.

You are free to draw whatever parallels you like from this little parable.

My only gloss will be to say that I have found the many musics since 1950 to be utterly delightful and enjoyable--satisfying, nourishing, uplifting, beautiful. (Well, all of them but the ones that try to party like it's still 1889.) That's what I usually miss in discussions of this sort, the possibility (proven on my ears at the very least) that contemporary music is fun. It's not weird or cryptic or purposely ugly and hateful (though in any age there will be a certain amount of that--you can hurl insults in Czech and in English both), it's pleasurable, enjoyable, delightful and several other synonyms. If the group of people who do enjoy it is small (a common accusation), what of it? Not very many people in the world speak Czech. Czech is still a perfectly lovely language.


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## Mirror Image

I appreciate the responses from everyone, especially Some Guy, but I was just curious as why the media would pair Dutilleux with Ravel or Debussy and now it becomes crystal clear to me: they have no idea what they're talking about most of the time. What else is new!


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## Mirror Image

Dim7 said:


> Emphasis on the "little more" - Romantic (esp. late romantic) and early 20th century music is hardly particularly straightforward! But I guess it's "straightforward" compared to über-cryptic modernism.


Perhaps not straight-forward in the tradition sense we think of Brahms or Dvorak, but it's certainly more accessible, which doesn't always mean it's going to be better either, so I just try and listen to what I enjoy and look for composers that take me by surprise like most recently Malcolm Arnold.


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## Sid James

some guy said:


> And there's nothing about any contemporary music that seems cryptic to me, über or otherwise...My only gloss will be to say that I have found the many musics since 1950 to be utterly delightful and enjoyable--satisfying, nourishing, uplifting, beautiful. (Well, all of them but the ones that try to party like it's still 1889.) That's what I usually miss in discussions of this sort, the possibility (proven on my ears at the very least) that contemporary music is fun. It's not weird or cryptic or purposely ugly and hateful (though in any age there will be a certain amount of that--you can hurl insults in Czech and in English both), it's pleasurable, enjoyable, delightful and several other synonyms. If the group of people who do enjoy it is small (a common accusation), what of it? Not very many people in the world speak Czech. Czech is still a perfectly lovely language.


I agree with this quote 110%. The comparison you draw between music and spoken language is also spot-on. I think that there is a richness of styles in music today, and there is much good classical music being produced as we speak, by both older established composers and younger lesser known ones. I enjoy all types of classical music, from Byrd to Mozart to Varese & beyond. Obviously, one's approach to these must differ, but the thing they have in common is that listening to them increases one's powers of perception tenfold. I don't only enjoy music that grabs me instantly, but also music that grows on me with every listen. I think people forget the latter process when evaluating contemporary music in particular. They expect it to grab them straight away, and don't give the music time to seep in, so to speak...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> They expect it to grab them straight away, and don't give the music time to seep in, so to speak...


It depends on who the person is. I'm pretty musically open. No, I don't like serialism, but does not liking serialism not make me perceptive listener, because I don't care for it? I think we can all agree that we gravitate towards the sounds we like. There has to be something in the music that moves us or else why listen to it?

It's certainly not Dutilleux's fault that I don't enjoy his music. It's not Berg's fault that I don't enjoy his music. It's all a matter of finding the music that does move us.

For me it's not a matter of giving it a chance, it's a matter of trying to figure it out musically. If it's "over my head" so to speak, then I leave it alone and listen to something that I do enjoy. I like composers who use atonality as an orchestral device. This helps to build tension. Other than that, atonality isn't for me.


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## Sid James

This thread is no longer about Dutilleux, but, oh well...

I suppose we all gravitate, as you say, towards a particular type, style or maybe even era of music, especially as we are starting out in classical. But I've been listening to classical for 20 years now, and I like to explore avenues that are still uncharted for me. I'm a jack of all trades & master of none, so to speak. Recently I've been getting into Renaissance music & maybe I'll even buy some of the music that came before that, like Gregorian chant. Getting to know a wider range of music deepens my percepetion & understanding of the connections & commonalities (& differences) between those styles. It's interesting, for example, how old church music influenced so many composers, from Bruckner, to Durufle, Vaughan Williams, Frank Martin and Arvo Part. So I suppose if one is keen to explore music from earlier eras, one's perception of music today will be better...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> This thread is no longer about Dutilleux, but, oh well...
> 
> I suppose we all gravitate, as you say, towards a particular type, style or maybe even era of music, especially as we are starting out in classical. But I've been listening to classical for 20 years now, and I like to explore avenues that are still uncharted for me. I'm a jack of all trades & master of none, so to speak. Recently I've been getting into Renaissance music & maybe I'll even buy some of the music that came before that, like Gregorian chant. Getting to know a wider range of music deepens my percepetion & understanding of the connections & commonalities (& differences) between those styles. It's interesting, for example, how old church music influenced so many composers, from Bruckner, to Durufle, Vaughan Williams, Frank Martin and Arvo Part. So I suppose if one is keen to explore music from earlier eras, one's perception of music today will be better...


I think the problem, Andre is that perhaps you're expecting other people to go about music like you do? Not everybody has an interest in all time periods of classical music. What if somebody is just happy listening to Tchaikovsky for the rest of their life? What's wrong with that?

But I agree Andre with you to a certain extent, my love for music goes well beyond classical. I do enjoy exploring music a lot more than many people. How many people do you know that actually listen to or has heard of Langgaard? Not that many.

You are perhaps more interested at skipping around different time periods. I'm not. I'm working on almost a complete survey of Romantic and early 20th Century music. I mean just think of how much music are in just these two periods?

I prefer to go about music from a detail oriented approach rather than examing a wide range of time periods. That doesn't really interest me.


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## Sid James

This is an interesting discussion, but to get back to issues of Dutilleux's influences, here's some info from my primer in classical, the excellent _Rough Guide to Classical Music _(4th ed., p.172):

"Dutilleux now regards his juvenilia as too derivative of Faure, Debussy and Ravel to be worth preserving and has rejected nearly all the music that he wrote prior to his sinewy _Piano Sonata _of 1947. He also considers that his work prior to that time conformed too closely to a stereotype of entertaining French music that is all charm, elegance and wit. With the _Piano Sonata_, composed for his wife, the pianist Genevieve Joy, he found a voice of his own."

So, obviously, Dutilleux was influenced early on by those three composers mentioned, but in 1947 he departed strongly from those influences...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> This is an interesting discussion, but to get back to issues of Dutilleux's influences, here's some info from my primer in classical, the excellent _Rough Guide to Classical Music _(4th ed., p.172):
> 
> "Dutilleux now regards his juvenilia as too derivative of Faure, Debussy and Ravel to be worth preserving and has rejected nearly all the music that he wrote prior to his sinewy _Piano Sonata _of 1947. He also considers that his work prior to that time conformed too closely to a stereotype of entertaining Frech music that is all charm, elegance and wit. With the _Piano Sonata_, composed for his wife, the pianist Geneieve Joy, he found a voice of his own."
> 
> So, obviously, Dutilleux was influenced early on by those three composers mentioned, but in 1947 he departed strongly from those influences...


If find it interesting that composers, like Dutilleux, reject their early music when they think they have hit their "stride" so to speak. You can't hide from influences, no matter how much different you sound then they do or not. I think it's kind of childish to detest his early work just because they were influenced by these composers.

Langgaard wrote his Symphony No. 1 when he was 16 years old. I don't think I would be asshamed to have my name attached to that symphony.


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## Sid James

I agree & when you hear of great composers like Varese & Hovhaness destroying their early music, you just want to weep!


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I agree & when you hear of great composers like Varese & Hovhaness destroying their early music, you just want to weep!


You know why Hovhaness threw out his early compositions don't you?


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## Sid James

Yeah, basically due to criticism from others, and also because he wanted start afresh. I've read that the only early Hovhaness work that survives is his _Cello Concerto_, which I have ordered & am looking forward to listening to...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Yeah, basically due to criticism from others, and also because he wanted start afresh. I've read that the only early Hovhaness work that survives is his _Cello Concerto_, which I have ordered & am looking forward to listening to...


He was insulted by Bernstein's apparent disapproval of a piece he was playing on piano at a composer's workshop. I think Bernstein said something to the effect of "I can't play this garbage anymore." This upset Hovhaness terribly and he went home and threw everything he had composed away and started all over again.

But had Hovhaness not have had this happen, then his style would have probably not have flourished into the style we know of him today.


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## kg4fxg

*Still Looking....*



Andre said:


> I agree & when you hear of great composers like Varese & Hovhaness destroying their early music, you just want to weep!


Yeah, I am still looking for Sibelius 8th Symphony.

I have 42 pieces by Dutilleux. After reading several books about composers I bought most of the works that were presented in the books as a study. I would have to research more about Dutilleux's past to see a conection to Ravel or Debussy. Not that there is one. But it is amazing what you find in letters the composer wrote or biographies. Of course Henri is not dead yet.

Personally I think the media is not too bright, they most likely think the average person could only name 4 classical composers. Go figure?

Yes, maybe I am a little like Andre, I do like to expose myself all kinds of classical music. Some just takes time for me to like or understand. Bartok to a little effort on my part.


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## Mirror Image

kg4fxg said:


> Yeah, I am still looking for Sibelius 8th Symphony.


Good luck finding a recording of that!


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## Sid James

I've just acquired the Dutilleux _Cello Concerto_. It's a piece based on the sensuous poetry of Charles Baudelaire. The piece reflects Baudelaire's preocuppation with the complexities of physical love, but like the poetry it can be quite dark. Nonetheless there are some upbeat passages, maybe reflecting what goes on in the bedroom? It's hard not to listen to this work without making the poetic associations, especially if you've read Baudelaire, even though Dutilleux didn't aim to literally illustrate the poems (however, each movement is given a title of the opening line of a poem).

Compared to other more intense C20th cello concertos that I've listened to, such as by Lutoslawski & Penderecki, the Dutilleux is far easier to listen to. So I find it puzzling if people find Dutilleux 'hard' or 'challenging.' At least in this work, he doesn't make the soloist play at the highest register, and it is not too fast. I think it does have a certain flow to it, which makes it at least superficially similar to bits of Debussy's _Violin Sonata_, etc. But it's only a subliminal influence, at most...


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## Sid James

After having acquired an EMI 2-CD set of Dutilleux, I rate him as one of my favourite composers. The structure of his music is more intuitive and free than strictly ordered, but he tends to lock you in with a theme or two, which he reveals slowly, bit by bit. This is similar to Carter, in a way, but Dutilleux is more tonal than that composer. I think it's hard to categorise Dutilleux, which makes his music all the more interesting.

I really like his concertos, for cello (called "a whole remote world") & violin ("tree of dreams"). They are based upon the writings of Baudelaire & Proust respectively. There's a preoccupation with memory and time. Indeed, I think few composers can make time (seem to) stand still, and I think that besides Messiaen, Dutilleux is one of them. It's a shadowy, mysterious & nocturnal world which he represents. His orchestration is rich & rather unusual; in the _Violin Concerto_ he uses a cimbalom to add colour.

Another interesting work is his _Symphony No. 2 'Le Double,'_ in which he has a small chamber ensemble, including harpsichord, play alongside the orchestra. This is not like a concerto grosso, the smaller ensemble acts like a shadow of the main orchestra, adding opinions and repostes to the ideas generated. It would be a very interesting wok to see live.

I can hear a whole array of influences in Dutilleux's music, from Bartok to Stravinsky & Shostakovich (& to an extent the Debussy of _Jeux_). But he has definitely got an individual voice, and is worth exploring, provided the listener is flexible and open to this sort of music. It can be very rewarding...


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## StlukesguildOhio

I quite agree, Andre. I recently purchased what is probably the same EMI two-disc set and I was immediately taken in by Dutilleaux. He certainly is in the tradition of Impressionism (which include Debussy and Ravel... but also others such as Koechlin). Of course this tradition is interpreted in an original manner by Dutilleux just as it is in the hands of Messiaen, Takemitsu, or even Tristan Murail. Neither should one imagine that Ravel and Debussy contain all of what Dulliteaux brings to the table.


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## Head_case

His cello concerto is interesting, although like many modern composers, privilege theoretical development, over and above aural sensation. Unlike other modern musicians however, Dutilleux's intense mysticism and evocation of otherworldliness in his music, using organic developments from recurrent motifs, rather than expansion and growth of a movement in any traditional way - this much strikes me as interesting. 

I came to know his works through his string quartet 'Ainsi la Nuit', performed by the Arditti Quartet. It's links to Debussy are clearer, than perhaps his orchestral work: here we see innovation in style and technique (e.g. the use of pivot chords). It shares the same impressionistic leanings as Debussy's evocation of the 'the Sea', or other impressionistic palettes. Only here, Dutilleux takes on the Night as a theme, and transforms theme into 'form' with an originality, not seen in the string quartet form since Debussy shocked the cosy salons of Paris. 

In any case, it's a bit surprising to see a thread devoted to Dutilleux as if he was some kind of fringe composer. I'd always considered him a mainstream composer, however that might be just for those who have a penchant for European music, as opposed to being geographically fixed in the Teutonic-Prussian confines of music throughout the centuries.


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## Falstaft

Head_case said:


> His cello concerto is interesting, although like many modern composers, privilege theoretical development, over and above aural sensation.


Of all C20 composers, I'd be perhaps least likely to make this claim about Dutilleux (and that's not to deny he was highly theoretically rigorous)!

I love Dutilleux -- agree with the general sentiment that his music is actually far more accessible than the rather prejudicial first couple of posts suggest. I also find the link between Dut and Deb/Rav perfectly straightforward; in his symphonic works, his attention is very powerfully on orchestral color, and his harmonic language seems to be an outgrowth of some late Deb, mixed with Messaien and big band jazz. In fact, I was surprised Mirror_Image so quickly dismissed this music; his profile mentions being a jazz afficianado, and to my ears, I hear a ton of Claude Thornhill type arranging, big, luscious brass chords, parallel voice-leading which are all pretty much on the surface (then again, maybe he didn't hear an orchestral work, oh well, his loss).

If I were just starting out, I'd give his _Metaboles_ a listen. It's a nice intro to Dut's style; easy enough to keep track of the motifs and overall shape, but it's the kaleidoscopic, often downright gorgeous textures make me come back to this work.


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## myaskovsky2002

*at first*

I loved him, his music was so different...after a while I got bored...as with Rautavaara, the Finnish...

Different from others buy once you know them they are equal to themseleves all the time, no changes...like...you listened to one you listened to all.

Martin, open to discuss.


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## toucan

I believe the Frenchness rejected by Dutilleux was not so much Faure
(whose use of modal tones he praises), Ravel (whose orchestration he admires) 
or Debussy, as the Cocteau school, revived after world war two by the neo-tonals, 
who were trying to build Jean-Louis Damase (imitator of Poulenc), into a hero.

Among the strongest influences on his mature works he lists Bela Bartok and
- surprisingly perhaps - Alban Berg.

Renewing French music by means of Central European influences has been Dutilleux's
overriding purpose. It even runs accross party lines as he once praised Florent Schmitt
for having the courage to restore the musical greatness of France, by means of German 
influences (ie, Schmitt was pro Vichy when Dutilleux dabbled in Resistance)

The high number of quality musicians who have performed - and often 
commissioned - works by this great and universally esteemed man should be a big 
clue that there is something there that matters: Issac Stern, Anne-Sophie Mutter, 
Kurt Masur, Lorin Maazel, Rostropovich, Charles Munch, Georges Szell, Paul Sacher, 
Tatiana Nokolaeva, La Salle Quartet, Erner\st Ansermet, Valery Gergiev, 
Monique de la Bruchollerie, etc.

Late in life Herbert Von Karajan announced his intention to record the First Symphony but

died before realizing that project. Damn.

Highly recommended is the Erato series of recordings. The chamber music box includes 
an excellent rendition of the String Quartet:










Barenboim is as good as any on the symphonies. THe second symphony ends on 
the same motif as the beginning of *Metaboles*. These reappearances of old
themes run from work to work of Dutilleux's as well as within individual compositions:










Can't do without Sacher and Rostropovitch:










*Shadows of Time*, arguably his masterpiece, was premiered by Ozawa:










But I think the best recording is by the unheralded but highly gifted Michel Plasson, a 
crisp and incisive rendition. The Capitole de Toulouse was arguably the best symphony 
orchestra in France, when Plasson was at the helm over there:










A curiosity: a recording of the piano sonata by Tatiana Nilolaeva (to be confused 
with Tatiana Nikolayeva). Another curiosity about this recording is, it's missing a 
few notes. Sort of like the y in Nikolayeva, which is often missing from listings of her 
CD. At least she is not missing in talent.


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## toucan

Another curiosity, the recording by Monique de la Bruchollerie. Her rendition is 
moderate, she makes Dutilleux sound like Debussy, when others make him sound 
like the harsher, more percussive Bela Bartok.










Charles Munch's Erato recordings of *Metaboles* and of the Second Symphony are 
well known. Less well known (and sort of expensive) is his Disques Montaigne live recording 
of the Second Symphony:










*Metaboles* was written for Georges Szell and premiered by him. There is a recording 
of the piece by Szell. I wish they would publish it separately. A nice pairing might be Georg 
Solti's recording of Witold Lutoslawski's Third Symphony, also available only in an anthology.










I list Rostropovich's recording of the Cello Concerto, not only for Rostropovich, and not only 
for that miraculous act of pure inspiration, the fourth movement, _Miroir_ (equal to the 
third of the op 16 pieces of Schoenberg, _Farben_, I'd say) - but also because Serge Baudo 
does such a fine job conducting. For those who agree, equally recommendable is Baudo's 
performance of *Timbres, Espace, Mouvement* on Harmonia Mundi










Proof I did not lie when I said Ansermet played Dutilleux:










Last but not quite least. In May 2009 occured the premiere of the completed 
*Le Temps l'Horloge*. The Theatre des Champs Elysees had the good sense to 
release it in CD form, available on their site. Some have bickered over the high price of 
the recording, 15 Euros (postage included) for 15 minutes of music. I'd rather spend 15 Euros 
on the recording, than have no recording to spend any money on!










In fact, so much I prefer Dutilleux to my money, I wish the Berlin Philharmonic would 
finally get its act together and release the premiere of *Correspondances*, despite 
the fact that it was given by Dawn Upshaw and Sir Simon Rattle. In fact, if they'd release 
it, I'd even be willing to add postage fee to the 15 Euros. Despite the bizarre Upshaw and 
Sir Simon.


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## Vaneyes

I chuckle each time I see that Ozawa "Shadows" CD. TT about 27 minutes.
I like Dutoit, Baudo, and Graf for orchestral. For other genre, Arditti and Queffelec.


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## arsnova

*The entirely underrated Dutilleux*

As one of my first posts on the forum I feel the need to sing the praises of Dutilleux. It's his 97th birthday on Tuesday and I'd be prepared to bet there isn't going to be very much media coverage.... if any at all.

Dutilleux is eternally overshadowed by Boulez, but I believe he is one of the most important composers of his generation, and for me the most exciting composer alive today. For those not familiar the string quartet and cello concerto are great starting points.

Anyway - Happy Birthday Dutilleux!


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## neoshredder

Which Composers do get media coverage btw? lol But I've been meaning to check out some of his works. Just haven't gotten to it yet.


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## Mahlerian

neoshredder said:


> Which Composers do get media coverage btw? lol But I've been meaning to check out some of his works. Just haven't gotten to it yet.


The cello concerto "Tout un mond lointain" is one of the most popular. Check out his second symphony as well.


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## arsnova

neoshredder said:


> Which Composers do get media coverage btw? lol


Yes, so true. Though Dutilleux is rarely performed as well... Given how little attention Lutoslawski is receiving and it's his centenary next week, I fear Dutilleux's birthday may well pass without acknowledgment .


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## elgar's ghost

I wouldn't be surprised if Dutilleux himself is quite happy with the lack of media fanfare, to be honest - he strikes me as being a man that likes to keep on keeping on at his own - *ahem* - 'leisurely' pace and without much fuss! You'll find that there are pockets of support for him around here (probably no less than those for Boulez, really) - I'm an admirer of the works of his that I have heard but have still yet to really 'crack' them.


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## Mahlerian

arsnova said:


> Yes, so true. Though Dutilleux is rarely performed as well... Given how little attention Lutoslawski is receiving and it's his centenary next week, I fear Dutilleux's birthday may well pass without acknowledgment .


He's more performed than a lot of composers of his generation, and that's certainly something of an accomplishment. My tastes lean towards Messiaen and Boulez, but I'm not very familiar with a lot of Dutilleux's music, though I enjoy what I've heard.

There was a topic created about a year ago by someone who was infuriated that he was forced to sit through "Tout...", though, so it's not everyone's cup of tea. I think the poster hasn't returned after that topic finished, but the same type of thing surfaces from time to time.


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## arsnova

Mahlerian said:


> There was a topic created about a year ago by someone who was infuriated that he was forced to sit through "Tout...", though, so it's not everyone's cup of tea.


Of course not, but I do feel that for those with tastes that lean towards Messiaen he is a more accessible composer that Boulez. Mostly because of his use of modes, and his earlier works such as the Sonatine for flute and piano show clear Messiaenic influence.

Of course I'm just bitter about his lack of music played because he is one of my favourite composers, but yes output is rather small - but perfectly formed!


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## aleazk

I like Dutilleux. I particularly like his violin concerto. The subtle way in which he incorporates jazz-like harmonies. His music is extremely colorful, something that I greatly esteem:


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## Ukko

This geezer enjoys several of his works. There is a CD pairing his cello concerto with Lutoslawski's that please me considerably. Dutilleux's music has been recorded, and does get performed. Seems like that ought to be enough.


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## arpeggio

*Performances*



arsnova said:


> Yes, so true. Though Dutilleux is rarely performed as well... Given how little attention Lutoslawski is receiving and it's his centenary next week, I fear Dutilleux's birthday may well pass without acknowledgment .


I checked http://www.bachtrack.com/. Although the website is incomplete, I found that over the next six months there will be over thirty performances of works by Dutilleux http://www.bachtrack.com/find-events/what/composer=1592-dutilleux

One of his publishers, Schott Music, listed a performance last January, 2013 of his _The Shadows of Time_ with the LA Philharmonic: http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/5345/index.html

Classicalsource listed several review of performances over the past few years of music of Dutilleux, including a recent performance of Alan Gilbert conducting _Métaboles_ with the Boston Symphony: http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_search.php?search=Dutilleux


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## arpeggio

*Hilltroll72's Thread*



Hilltroll72 said:


> This geezer enjoys several of his works. There is a CD pairing his cello concerto with Lutoslawski's that please me considerably. Dutilleux's music has been recorded, and does get performed. Seems like that ought to be enough.


There is that thread you started: http://www.talkclassical.com/21879-whats-deal-dutilleux.html


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## arsnova

arpeggio said:


> I checked http://www.bachtrack.com/. Although the website is incomplete, I found that over the next six months there will be over thirty performances of works by Dutilleux http://www.bachtrack.com/find-events/what/composer=1592-dutilleux
> 
> One of his publishers, Schott Music, listed a performance last January, 2013 of his _The Shadows of Time_ with the LA Philharmonic: http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/5345/index.html
> 
> Classicalsource listed several review of performances over the past few years of music of Dutilleux, including a recent performance of Alan Gilbert conducting _Métaboles_ with the Boston Symphony: http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_search.php?search=Dutilleux


Forgive me, but what I meant, selfishly, was that he is very rarely performed in the UK. Three performances this year listed on bachtrack, which is not very much.


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## Ukko

arpeggio said:


> There is that thread you started: http://www.talkclassical.com/21879-whats-deal-dutilleux.html


Ah yes. Good to know that I agree with myself.


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## Guest

Dutilleux even gets performed in conservative* little** Portland, Or.

Twice since I've been here.

And is fairly well received, too, by an audience that includes people who get headaches from Britten and Janacek.

How about Helmut Lachenmann? There's a very interesting and adventurous composer for ya. Quite well-known in Europe. A large discography, too. And certainly an important figure in avant garde concert music, if important means innovative and influencial. Has anyone in the United States or Australia ever heard anything by him in concert? (I mean, other than in concert when you're travelling in Europe. That's easy to do.)

Chaya Czernowin or Roberto Gerhard? Two people who have had significant time teaching in the U.S. Ever heard anything by either of them other than on recordings? (If even that.) Hans Tutschku? He's at Harvard. You've heard of Harvard, haven't you? He's been there since 2004. Gilbert Amy, Francis Dhomont, Pauline Oliveros, Christian Wolff, Natasha Barrett, Dan Senn, Luc Ferrari. The world is, and has been, full of extraordinarily talented and important composers who are "entirely underrated" if they're even known at all to "classical" audiences.

Dutilleux and Lutosławski are monstrously and enormously well-known and highly rated in comparison.

*It has a fairly enthusiastic audience for new music. Extreme experimental avant garde noise. And very little cross-over. There are some regular new music attendees who go to symphony concerts, there are no regular symphony subscribers who go to new music concerts.

**It's not all _that_ little.


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## starthrower

I like the symphonies on Chandos, and his violin concerto. And just checking Amazon, I see there is a brand new release on DG, and an inexpensive 5 CD box on Virgin.

I wouldn't say Lutoslawski is receiving no attention. There are many fine recordings of his work available, and a new symphonies set coming out on Sony conducted by Salonen.


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## Vaneyes

Dutilleux I own, and can recommend...

Violin Cto., Cello Cto. - Amoyal/Harrell/Dutoit (Decca)
Cello Cto. - Rostropovich/Baudo (EMI)
Symphony 1, Timbres, espaces, mouvement - Baudo (harmonia mundi)
Symphony 2, Metaboles, The Shadows of Time - Graf (Arte Nova)
String Quartet - Arditti SQ. (naive)
Piano Music - Queffelec (Virgin)


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## clavichorder

I second the Violin Concerto, and both symphony 1 and 2.


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## Hausmusik

starthrower said:


> \And just checking Amazon, I see there is a brand new release on DG, and an inexpensive 5 CD box on Virgin.


That's quite a recommendable new release. Anyone who buys it would be close to owning HD's complete works.

My favorite Dutilleux: in addition to the Cello Concerto (Rostropovich), the Violin Concerto (Capucon), the Symphony #2 (Plasson), and the Ainsi la nuit (Belcea), I really like the recital of his piano music by Robert Levin on ECM.

The Arte Nova series with Hans Graf I can't recommend. Dynamic ranges too wide; I have to spend all of Jean-Guihen Queyras's Tout le monde. . .with my finger on the volume button. What's the point? (grumble grumble)


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## Vaneyes

Hausmusik said:


> ...The Arte Nova series with Hans Graf I can't recommend. Dynamic ranges too wide; I have to spend all of Jean-Guihen Queyras's Tout le monde. . .with my finger on the volume button. What's the point? (grumble grumble)


That disc isn't competitive anyway to both Baudo CDs I listed. Since I find no dynamics or other issues with, Symphony 2, Metaboles, The Shadows of Time - Graf (Arte Nova), I think the series diss is unwarranted.

Some like Tortelier. I bought a couple and quickly culled them, finding the interps not urgent enough. Plasson, similarly.


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## arsnova

some guy said:


> Hans Tutschku? He's at Harvard. You've heard of Harvard, haven't you? He's been there since 2004. Gilbert Amy, Francis Dhomont, Pauline Oliveros, Christian Wolff, Natasha Barrett, Dan Senn, Luc Ferrari. The world is, and has been, full of extraordinarily talented and important composers who are "entirely underrated" if they're even known at all to "classical" audiences.
> 
> Dutilleux and Lutosławski are monstrously and enormously well-known and highly rated in comparison.


I wasn't really suggesting that they weren't.... yes, of course much new music is not performed enough and under-valued, in my opinion. That doesn't really mean that Dutilleux is performed enough though, just because it's performed *slightly* more that someone never performed...


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## Vaneyes

starthrower said:


> I like the symphonies on Chandos, and his violin concerto. And just checking Amazon, I see there is a brand new release on DG, and an inexpensive 5 CD box on Virgin.
> 
> I wouldn't say Lutoslawski is receiving no attention. There are many fine recordings of his work available, and a new symphonies set coming out on Sony conducted by Salonen.


I'd be interested in hearing further Salonen Lutoslawski. His televised Lutoslawski Cello Concerto with Ma a few years ago was outstanding.

Salonen's Dutilleux Correspondances (DG) will be a non-purchase for me. Not many, except for hardcore, will sit through that work more than once.

The Virgin Dutilleux box is an okay starter. Immediate supplements are required for Plasson and Mork.


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## Vaneyes

arsnova said:


> I wasn't really suggesting that they weren't.... yes, of course much new music is not performed enough and under-valued, in my opinion. That doesn't really mean that Dutilleux is performed enough though, just because it's performed *slightly* more that someone never performed...


It doesn't matter what the outside world thinks. Only TC'ers matter. Too, this thread could've been added to the Dutilleux Composer Guestbook. Is there one? :lol:


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## Hausmusik

Vaneyes said:


> That disc isn't competitive anyway to both Baudo CDs I listed. Since I find no dynamics or other issues with, Symphony 2, Metaboles, The Shadows of Time - Graf (Arte Nova), I think the series diss is unwarranted.


Vaneyes, I don't have that volume; I should have specified I only have vol. two, with Timbres..., the cello concerto, and Symphony 1, and it definitely has serious dynamic range issues i.e. totally inaudible except at impractically high volume. I suppose other installments were more sensibly engineered.


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## arpeggio

Hausmusik said:


> Vaneyes, I don't have that volume; I should have specified I only have vol. two, with Timbres..., the cello concerto, and Symphony 1, and it definitely has serious dynamic range issues i.e. totally inaudible except at impractically high volume. I suppose other installments were more sensibly engineered.


Yes there is. Along with the 'Hilltroll72's' Thread there is: http://www.talkclassical.com/6153-whats-deal-henri-dutilleux.html


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## mensch

I was introduced to Dutilleux during a concert programme which featured pieces Dvořák, Rachmaninoff and Dutilleux's "Tout un monde lointain…". The latter piece was easily the most provocative and exciting experience.

Pierre Boulez is also a prolific conductor and (in the past) known for his, at times, rather venomous writings, whereas Dutilleux major public activity consists almost exclusively of composing. Dutilleux has also generally steered clear of all the 20th century -isms in music, whereas more well known figures like Boulez and Stockhausen identified quite heavily with many stylistic currents (and denounced them vocally as well). The air of scandal is also less present with Dutilleux and his body of works.

This article in the New Yorker calls Boulez and Stockhausen more original and I don't agree. It seems to me they're confusing radicalness with originality.


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## aleazk

mensch said:


> I was introduced to Dutilleux during a concert programme which featured pieces Dvořák, Rachmaninoff and Dutilleux's "Tout un monde lointain…". The latter piece was easily the most provocative and exciting experience.
> 
> Pierre Boulez is also a prolific conductor and (in the past) known for his, at times, rather venomous writings, whereas Dutilleux major public activity consists almost exclusively of composing. Dutilleux has also generally steered clear of all the 20th century -isms in music, whereas more well known figures like Boulez and Stockhausen identified quite heavily with many stylistic currents (and denounced them vocally as well). The air of scandal is also less present with Dutilleux and his body of works.
> 
> This article in the New Yorker calls Boulez and Stockhausen more original and I don't agree. It seems to me they're confusing radicalness with originality.


"Compared to the arch-modernist music of his formidable French contemporary Pierre Boulez, Dutilleux is almost conservative.", c'mon!, a true music critic (or at least someone with a more interesting global view of art) would never speak in these terms. You can't apply the term "conservative" to Dutilleux, that's preposterous. His writing follows some of the most idiomatic trends introduced by post-war music, like textural writing, instead of the traditional melody and development, also explorations of timbre, by the heavy use of percussion instruments. Certainly, Dutilleux is not at the forefront of the avant-garde, but calling him a "conservative" because of that, just denotes a lack of insight. People who write those kind of articles just add more confusion and exacerbates the extreme (and of course, false) vision of some snobbish people, who think that they can define what's valuable and what's not.


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## mensch

aleazk said:


> "Compared to the arch-modernist music of his formidable French contemporary Pierre Boulez, Dutilleux is almost conservative.", c'mon!, a true music critic (or at least someone with a more interesting global view of art) would never speak in these terms. You can't apply the term "conservative" to Dutilleux, that's preposterous.


Yes, the "almost conservative" is a stretch, a great leap, even.

But I think the article is characteristic of how Dutilleux is often perceived, as the heir to the impressionism of Ravel and Debussy and as someone who didn't publicly burn any bridges with the past like Boulez said he did at various points in his career as a composer. The programming of his cello concerto in between the heavy Romanticism of Dvořák, Ravel and a very militaristic piece by Rachmaninoff which I enjoyed the least, is also based on the same rationale.


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## clavichorder

some guy said:


> Dutilleux even gets performed in conservative* little** Portland, Or.


Its time for a Portland joke: only a Portlander would consider Portlander conservative...oh wait, its a joke, you must not be a hard core enough Portlander.

Lol, no offense, I am very fond of that city from the time I have spent there.


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## Hausmusik

Perhaps not quite on topic, but inspired by this discussion: I am surprised that people still talk about twelve-tone composition/serialism as though it were the avant-garde. I suppose because it never achieved popular acceptance, it is somehow considered "radical" despite even composers with as much avant-garde street cred as Boulez having abandoned it as overly restrictive and academic. So I wonder, how old does a 1920s/1930s academic movement have to be before a liking for it ceases to be accepted as edgy and forward-thinking? It's as comical to me as someone claiming that his being a fan of (or writing in the style of) T. S. Eliot or Ezra Pound makes him some kind of experimental literary radical.

Let's be honest: a preference for serialism over, say, the classical-era symphony signifies nothing but a preference for one kind of old-fashioned musical idiom over another. Yet you find people--on this very forum, even--waving Schoenberg quotations as the flag of avantgardism---in 2013! "In spring. . ." of what year does this silliness end, I wonder?

[Screed endeth.]


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## arsnova

I take it all back..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2013/jan/21/henri-dutilleux-contemporary-music-guide


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## Mahlerian

aleazk said:


> "Compared to the arch-modernist music of his formidable French contemporary Pierre Boulez, Dutilleux is almost conservative.", c'mon!, a true music critic (or at least someone with a more interesting global view of art) would never speak in these terms. You can't apply the term "conservative" to Dutilleux, that's preposterous. His writing follows some of the most idiomatic trends introduced by post-war music, like textural writing, instead of the traditional melody and development, also explorations of timbre, by the heavy use of percussion instruments. Certainly, Dutilleux is not at the forefront of the avant-garde, but calling him a "conservative" because of that, just denotes a lack of insight. People who write those kind of articles just add more confusion and exacerbates the extreme (and of course, false) vision of some snobbish people, who think that they can define what's valuable and what's not.


I think that sort of language is trying to draw people in who are afraid of anything that's not conservative, almost as a reflex. If it's associated with modernism at all, it must be avant-garde, and avant-garde music makes my ears hurt. Calling a composer like Dutilleux or Messiaen "conservative" even though they created their own musical languages inspired by Webern and Debussy is supposed to make them seem more approachable than those "other guys". Of course, I find parts of Boulez perfectly approachable, so what do I know?


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## Vaneyes

Labels, labels, that's all. Just listen to the music, and get out of it what you will. 

Approachable is a varying term, akin to degrees of tolerance. It can be a soothing utterance, but realistically, it's only pertinent to a listener when he/she has cracked the nut.


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## mensch

arsnova said:


> I take it all back..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2013/jan/21/henri-dutilleux-contemporary-music-guide


I wanted to post that article as well, as it's more favourable than the New Yorker piece. It also has some nice recommendations for people who want to get into Dutilleux's music.

I found his ambivalence towards Boulez rather insightful:

_"I don't speak about him, and he doesn't speak about me. I admire his work for the Ensemble Intercontemporain. He has made his choices and he has the right to make his choices. But there are things I cannot accept, and I don't like people who are never in doubt."_

Also, Tom Service mentions the irony of Boulez' recent orchestral writing resembling that of Dutilleux.


----------



## arsnova

Yes, as he says:

"I have no problems with [Boulez]. I even like the fact that he is no longer certain, but is a man riven by doubt, as we all should be." - Henri Dutilleux


----------



## Mahlerian

A happy birthday to him. With all of the modernists we've lost recently, it's nice to still have a few around.


----------



## neoshredder

Plan to listen to more of this now. Though a lot of music here.


----------



## neoshredder

Mahlerian said:


> A happy birthday to him. With all of the modernists we've lost recently, it's nice to still have a few around.


Yeah it isn't my favorite era but it's good to have a lot of variety around here. Not just everyone focusing on 19th Century.


----------



## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> With all of the modernists we've lost recently, it's nice to still have a few around.


Yeah. It is nice.

Helmut Lachenmann
Phill Niblock
Pauline Oliveros
Eliane Radigue
Christian Wolff
Yasunao Tone
Pierre Henry
Bernard Parmegiani
Pierre Boulez
Bronius Kutavičius
Gordon Mumma
Roger Reynolds
Francis Dhomont
Sofia Gubaidulina
Robert Ashley
Gilbert Amy
Klaus Huber
Tom Johnson
Friedrich Cerha
Tod Dockstader
Alvin Lucier
Annea Lockwood
György Kurtág
Milko Kelemen
Ivo Malec
Larry Austin
Dick Raaijmakers
Toshi Ichiyanagi
Vinko Globokar
Yoko Ono
La Monte Young
Guy Reibel
Hans Zender
David Behrman
Beatriz Ferreyra
Rolf Riehm
Hans Joachim-Hespos
Jean-Claude Risset

Enjoy them while you can! (I've only met ten of these, myself. And lovely people they all are, to be sure.)

(Though, be fair, there are more coming along all the time, even in what can only be called a hostile work environment!!)


----------



## Vaneyes

some guy said:


> Yeah. It is nice.
> 
> Helmut Lachenmann
> Phill Niblock
> Pauline Oliveros
> Eliane Radigue
> Christian Wolff
> Yasunao Tone
> Pierre Henry
> Bernard Parmegiani
> *Pierre Boulez
> *Bronius Kutavičius
> Gordon Mumma
> Roger Reynolds
> Francis Dhomont
> *Sofia Gubaidulina
> *Robert Ashley
> Gilbert Amy
> Klaus Huber
> Tom Johnson
> Friedrich Cerha
> Tod Dockstader
> Alvin Lucier
> Annea Lockwood
> *György Kurtág
> *Milko Kelemen
> Ivo Malec
> Larry Austin
> Dick Raaijmakers
> Toshi Ichiyanagi
> Vinko Globokar
> Yoko Ono
> La Monte Young
> Guy Reibel
> Hans Zender
> David Behrman
> Beatriz Ferreyra
> Rolf Riehm
> Hans Joachim-Hespos
> Jean-Claude Risset


To a smaller degree. Sorry, Yoko.


----------



## PetrB

Mahlerian said:


> He's more performed than a lot of composers of his generation, and that's certainly something of an accomplishment. My tastes lean towards Messiaen and Boulez, but I'm not very familiar with a lot of Dutilleux's music, though I enjoy what I've heard.
> 
> There was a topic created about a year ago by someone who was infuriated that he was forced to sit through "Tout...", though, so it's not everyone's cup of tea. I think the poster hasn't returned after that topic finished, but the same type of thing surfaces from time to time.


Dutilleux retains a near romantic lyricism, which is, I believe, a natural impulse of his. This makes his 'serial' composing that much more surprising (and accessible) to those who have (wrongly) assumed 'the method' need only sound in conjunct leaping lines, ala German expressionism.

That poster, lol, signed up specifically to bash contemporary music and all who enjoyed it. I pegged him early on as a crank with a wide stripe of petty autocrat tossed in. His entries virtually screamed with outrage that he had been robbed of one-third of the price of his ticket because the Dutilleux was on the program -- which he well knew, including the nature of the work, when he purchased said ticket. A decided crank, he was banned within days of making his first (and last) post.

Takes all kinds 

P.s. Those composer's birthdays will at least be noted in their native land, Classical Radio stations playing more of their works that day, etc. Places proud of their heritage of 'high culture,' they will make some deal of 'their local boy' doing good, especially it the local boy has gained at least a bit of a toehold on international repute


----------



## Mahlerian

some guy said:


> Yeah. It is nice.
> 
> Helmut Lachenmann
> Phill Niblock
> Pauline Oliveros
> Eliane Radigue
> Christian Wolff
> Yasunao Tone
> Pierre Henry
> Bernard Parmegiani
> Pierre Boulez
> Bronius Kutavičius
> Gordon Mumma
> Roger Reynolds
> Francis Dhomont
> Sofia Gubaidulina
> Robert Ashley
> Gilbert Amy
> Klaus Huber
> Tom Johnson
> Friedrich Cerha
> Tod Dockstader
> Alvin Lucier
> Annea Lockwood
> György Kurtág
> Milko Kelemen
> Ivo Malec
> Larry Austin
> Dick Raaijmakers
> Toshi Ichiyanagi
> Vinko Globokar
> Yoko Ono
> La Monte Young
> Guy Reibel
> Hans Zender
> David Behrman
> Beatriz Ferreyra
> Rolf Riehm
> Hans Joachim-Hespos
> Jean-Claude Risset
> 
> Enjoy them while you can! (I've only met ten of these, myself. And lovely people they all are, to be sure.)
> 
> (Though, be fair, there are more coming along all the time, even in what can only be called a hostile work environment!!)


Most atonal composers today working in the modernist tradition are more fairly called post-modern (which I do not equate with conservatism or minimalism), I believe, unlike Carter or Dutilleux.


----------



## Turangalîla

I highly doubt that his 97th birthday will receive any coverage. Maybe his 100th...


----------



## violadude

Well....he doesn't have too much of a deal now. But his music is still cool.


----------



## starthrower

A comprehensive 6 disc box set was recently released by DG, but I'll be damned if I can find any details on the recordings.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/5345672










The Erato recordings have also been compiled into a 4 disc box.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Erato/2564642755


----------



## ptr

starthrower said:


> A comprehensive 6 disc box set was recently released by DG, but I'll be damned if I can find any details on the recordings.


*JPC has the complete listing!*



> *Detailinformationen*
> ORCHESTERWERKE: Symphonien Nr. 1 & 2; Metaboles; Timbres, Espace, Mouvement; Mystere de l'Instant; 5 Episoden für Orchester "The Shadows of Time"; Cellokonzert "Tout un monde lointain"; Violinkonzert "L'Arbre des songes";
> Sur le meme accord für Violine & Orchester
> +KAMMERMUSIK: 3 Strophes sur le Nom de Sacher für Cello solo; Sarabande; Cortege; Sonatine für Flöte & Klavier; Oboensonate; Choral für Posaune & Klavier; Cadence et Fueug für Posaune & Klavier; 4 Figures de Resonances; Ainsi la nuit; - For Aldeburgh 85; From Janequin to Jehan Alain
> +KLAVIERWERKE: Petit air a dormir debout; Klaviersonate; Au gre des ondes;
> Les Contemporains; Tous les chemins menet a Rome; Resonances; Figures de resonances I-IV; Mini-Prelude en eventail; 3 Preludes
> +VOKALWERKE: 4 Melodies; J'ai reve que je vous portais entre mes bras; San Francisco Night; Correspondances für Sopran & Orchester; Le Temps l'horloge
> 
> *Künstler*: Renee Fleming, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Lynn Harrell, Pierre Amoyal, Robert Levin, Patrick Mason, Robert Spillman, Barbara Hannigan, Pascal Godart, Orchestre National Bordeaux Aquitaine, Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France, Orchestre de Paris, Orchestre National de I' ORTF, Esa-Pekka Salonen, Hans Graf, Charles Dutoit, Semyon Bychkov, Kurt Masur, Jean Martinon


/ptr


----------



## starthrower

^^^
Thanks! A bit frustrating trying to acquire the recordings I want without buying a couple of boxes and duplicating some performances I already have. But I can pick up both the Erato and Virgin sets for less than the DG box. The Virgin box is great for the piano and chamber music, but I'd like to hear the Erato set for the orchestral music and the piano sonata performed by Dutilleux's wife, Ms. Joy.

But aren't all these recordings under the umbrella of one company? It's a bit confusing, as I've seen images of the Virgin set also displaying the Erato logo. I thought the Erato catalog was owned by Warner, and Virgin was the property of Universal? Anyway, some of the orchestral recordings in the Virgin 5 disc box are definitely EMI recordings, and not the Erato recordings by Barenboim.

I'm not sure where Amazon obtained this cover image, but it is clearly marked Erato, although the set contains Ms. Queffelec's Virgin recordings, not Ms. Joy's Erato recordings. What's up with this?
http://www.amazon.com/Dutilleux-Orc...m_sbs_m_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1HJ64FR65B4RM7QB96P9


----------



## science

Personally, I love everything I've heard by Dutilleux. That's in the neighborhood of 7 works or so, but it's a good start.


----------



## PetrB

Mirror Image said:


> Thanks for the information. The piece I heard was his violin concerto (aka L'Arbre des Songes).
> 
> I'm just curious why people would compare his music to that of Ravel or Debussy? I would also like to know why they would think I, a hardcore Ravel and Debussy fan, would enjoy his music?


Already said, the French sensibility of music is as much about harmonic and timbrel color as anything else (The German, for example, very much about form.) That one shared trait as mentioned is not meant to even suggest that Dutilleux's music sounds anything like either Ravel's music, or Debussy's music. I would write that off to a glib journalist or critic.

The music is serial, and for many who will not go there, or may never go their, it is atonal to a far greater degree than the later Debussy works like his Etudes or Jeux, those _technically_ "one kind of atonal." (The cliche comment that serial music sounds random is totally worn-out, btw  Fact is, many only know of the 'prettier' Debussy and call it a day there, rather than knowing of or listening to the _Études_, for example, or his _Jeux,_ which many otherwise fans of Debussy find too abstract or 'just weird.'

Dutilleux has become a sort of poster boy for composers writing in the atonal / serial vein who are still highly lyrical, and in his case, also rich in harmonic and instrumental color -- as held up in contrast to the more angular (disjunct) styles of some serial composers so many seem to associate with as being 'the one way that music sounds.'

But if you don't have the legs or will to jump the more common practice hurdle of tonality, or even the technically no longer tonal late Debussy works, then of course probably nothing by Dutilleux will float your boat -- at present, anyway.


----------



## dgee

That said if you don't get a kick out Tout un monde lontain or Les temps l'horloge get yr pulse checked ;-)

This is some of the most delicious and accessible post-war music and totally "in the tradition" - not "the same as" but a good diving in point for someone who has enjoyed Debussy, Ravel and Messiaen


----------



## Guest

Dutilleux is serial? Well, he fooled me...


----------



## Guest

science said:


> Personally, I love everything I've heard by Dutilleux. That's in the neighborhood of 7 works or so, but it's a good start.


This was released only a couple months ago


----------



## Rhombic

Despite having begun on a general comment against the composer, this is the _de facto_ Composer Guestbook so it shall do.

I have just begun to listen to his music and I am (already) very impressed. His approach to composition is quite transcendental and he fits in no style whatsoever. He is a baffling post-avantgarde composer that has greatly surprised me. I am listening to one of his earlier works -- in fact, his first purely orchestral work-- his First Symphony. It combines colours and phonic dimensions in a way that I consider majestic and magnificent. Absolutely beautiful and very interesting.

Whoever likes 20th century music and does not know this composer might really want to listen to him. It is really fabulous. He has his own style, a style that manages to create almost a spatial relationship among the themes.


----------



## clavichorder

Rhombic, I feel that his 1st symphony, while almost more conventional seeming than his later works, is the work of his I enjoy the most whole-heartedly. I say it seems more conventional because it seems to have more forward propulsion and rhythmic consistency in the traditional sense of classical music, that it can be enjoyed like a greater Shostakovich symphony or Bartok orchestral piece, and is less 'floating' than his later works, which still seem to move and go places but less obviously, if that makes sense to anyone. 

This is particularly true of that 2nd movement, which is so incredibly exciting and well put together. Those who have been baffled by Dutilleux's music might hear that movement and enjoy it much like they would an earlier non serial 20th century work, even though there is much more lurking underneath. 

One thing I really really love about Dutilleux's orchestral music is how he works in two, and sometimes three instruments seamlessly into the texture of his orchestration, that otherwise are the type of instruments to standalone more. These instruments have in common that they are interfaced with a keyboard; the harpsichord, the piano, and the celesta. I mean, the celesta is an orchestral instrument, but in its more conventional uses, it tends to stand out more than when Dutilleux writes for it. Not that Dutilleux doesn't write with it to extraordinary effect. In the movement I talked about above, the first symphony mvt. 2, both the piano and celesta are orchestral instruments, like in some Ravel and Stravinsky and others, and done in a first rate and perfectly integrated manner. 

In his 2nd symphony, also a masterpiece, Dutilleux has the harpsichord in his score, and it functions much as the piano and the celesta do in that same piece, as a fascinating timbre to add to the overall sound, ocassionally standing out more, but usually less conspicuous than even a baroque continuo harpsichord, in part due to the sheer number of other sounds it has to coexist with.

Really, I can't tell you how much I love that these instruments are used this way.

Regarding his 'connection' to Debussy and Ravel, perhaps there is no deeper basis for that than the fact that there is no better choice for a third french composer of the 20th century who is so focused on musical color and something akin to impressionism, albeit, with a more serial musical grammar. Also, Ravel and Debusy are not so nearly alike under the surface as they might seem, with a rather different harmonic language. So in my mind, they do make a sort of triumvirate, not to exclude other French composers on the basis of quality, since this is merely a category that can sort of be drawn.


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## starthrower

I love both symphonies. I have several recordings, but I usually listen to the Tortelier disc on Chandos.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

_Timbres, espace, mouvement_ was Messiaen's favourite, it certainly makes good contrast with Chronochromie.


----------



## Janspe

Pretty quiet here at the Dutilleux thread! I've gotten to know some of his music recently - I really like _Métaboles_, _Tout un monde lointain..._, _L'arbre des songes_ (and the smaller-scale _Sur le même accord_) and the _Correspondances_. I intend to listen to his work much more in the near future - he really was a great composer, even if his output remained kinda small.

Has anyone else been listening to Dutilleux recently?


----------



## Vaneyes

Janspe said:


> Pretty quiet here at the Dutilleux thread! I've gotten to know some of his music recently - I really like _Métaboles_, _Tout un monde lointain..._, _L'arbre des songes_ (and the smaller-scale _Sur un même accord_) and the _Correspondances_. I intend to listen to his work much more in the near future - he really was a great composer, even if his output remained kinda small.
> *
> Has anyone else been listening to Dutilleux recently?*


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## starthrower

I love Dutilleux! I've collected quite a few recordings including the Virgin and Erato boxes, the symphonies on Chandos, and some of Hans Graf's recordings on Arte Nova. I like his chambr works as well the orchesral music including the string quartet, Les Citations, and his piano sonata.


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## Janspe

I've been exploring some of Dutilleux' early stuff - the stuff that he famously disowned later - yesterday and today. I can sort of see why, as it's not as strikingly original as his later work, even though it's definitely worthwhile and beautiful music. I can certainly see why people would want to play pieces like the Oboe Sonata or the Sonatine for Piano and Flute.


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## PeterFromLA

The best introduction to Dutilleux is probably his Piano Sonata. It's his earliest acknowledged work, and it clearly is no stranger to the world of Ravel and Debussy. There are several fantastic recordings available.


----------



## Vaneyes

Moderators, the OPie's original question/concern has been answered in abundance. I request this thread now be renamed, *Henri Dutilleux (1916 - 2013)*. Thank you.:tiphat:


----------



## Janspe

Listening to the _Trois tableaux symphoniques_, the 1st symphony and the ballet _Le loup_ tonight. I can't get enough of this music...

I also agree with Vaneyes, this thread should be renamed!


----------



## ST4

I'm a french at heart but Dutilleux is not a composer I've been able to get into for some reason and I even have his complete works....


----------



## Dan Ante

ST4 said:


> I'm a french at heart but Dutilleux is not a composer I've been able to get into for some reason and I even have his complete works....


I haven't even tried but just had a look on YT and found this short clip which is not over the top....


----------



## Janspe

For me, it's the incredible colour and warmth in every single note he wrote that makes his music so arresting. I really feel that Dutilleux and Boulez (whose music I adore as well!) represented a very different approach to music-making, but in the end they both managed to uncover something mysterious that can't be put into words; only music can express it! Isn't it amazing how vast the spectrum of 20th century music is? And how lucky we are to be able to enjoy it...

Listening to the 2nd symphony now. This is such a great piece! The last movement has an incredible rhythmic vitality to it - I can't really put my finger on it, but it just feels _groovy_ - I really love the way Dutilleux uses the harpsichord in his scores.


----------



## Lenny

Janspe said:


> For me, it's the incredible colour and warmth in every single note he wrote that makes his music so arresting. I really feel that Dutilleux and Boulez (whose music I adore as well!) represented a very different approach to music-making, but in the end they both managed to uncover something mysterious that can't be put into words; only music can express it! Isn't it amazing how vast the spectrum of 20th century music is? And how lucky we are to be able to enjoy it...
> 
> Listening to the 2nd symphony now. This is such a great piece! The last movement has an incredible rhythmic vitality to it - I can't really put my finger on it, but it just feels _groovy_ - I really love the way Dutilleux uses the harpsichord in his scores.


I agree on almost everything here (except maybe for Boulez, who is too much for me..). What do you think about Joonas Kokkonen? I hear lots of same kind of expression in his music. I'd set up a composers guestbook for Kokkonen, but there's hardly any of his music in youtube... 

Sorry about this, I meant to say Dutilleux is great!! :tiphat:


----------



## Janspe

Lenny said:


> What do you think about Joonas Kokkonen? I hear lots of same kind of expression in his music. I'd set up a composers guestbook for Kokkonen, but there's hardly any of his music in youtube...


I heard one of Kokkonen's symphonies (I think it was No. 4) in a concert some time ago and really enjoyed it! His music is something to explore more, for sure. There are quite a lot of recordings of his music on Spotify, but YouTube seems a bit barren indeed...

I wish I was in charge of an orchestra (with unlimited funds) and could order them to play music that I wanted. I've been dreaming of a concert programme combining the music of Dutilleux with that of Webern - there's just so much music out there that needs to be heard more! And yet, next season in Helsinki there's of course Mahler #5, Beethoven Violin Concerto, Brahms #2, Dvořák Cello Concerto, Sibelius #2...  Of course they have to think about ticket sales, I fully understand that. But that doesn't stop me feeling frustrated about it.


----------



## Janspe

I'm once again at awe of this incredible composer. I listened to _L'arbre des songes_ this week and it was _so good_. Heard it live some time ago, too. I'm convinced that it's one those violin concerti that will remain firmly in the repertoire...

I mean, that moment where the orchestra just starts tuning in the middle of the piece is a real stroke of genius; and it just _works_, such a magical moment.

I could rave on and on about Dutilleux' music for hours.


----------



## NLAdriaan

The first symphony conducted by Jean Martinon is a real gem too.

I would recommend for every curious music lover to try the 6cd DG box on Dutilleux. It is a great, near complete compilation and covers every aspect of his music. I actually got to the name of Dutilleux from an interview with Chick Corea, who said he was studying Dutilleux' works. It is too early for me to give a review or recommendations. But I do think this is the collection to start with.


----------



## flamencosketches

NLAdriaan said:


> The first symphony conducted by Jean Martinon is a real gem too.
> 
> I would recommend for every curious music lover to try the 6cd DG box on Dutilleux. It is a great, near complete compilation and covers every aspect of his music. I actually got to the name of Dutilleux from an interview with Chick Corea, who said he was studying Dutilleux' works. It is too early for me to give a review or recommendations. But I do think this is the collection to start with.
> 
> View attachment 120892


Thanks for that. I haven't given his music a fair shot yet, but I'll put that box set on my radar. I'm a big fan of Chick Corea. I saw his band Return to Forever maybe 5 years ago (or more) and he tore it up on the keys. Did not know he was into Dutilleux, makes sense that he is a student of classical music though.


----------



## mikeh375

Anybody heard The Shadows of Time? I highly recommend it. The score is for a large orchestra (triple wind) and children's choir and has his typical sensuous, close spaced clusters scored with wonderful French delicacy.


----------



## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for that. I haven't given his music a fair shot yet, but I'll put that box set on my radar. I'm a big fan of Chick Corea. I saw his band Return to Forever maybe 5 years ago (or more) and he tore it up on the keys. Did not know he was into Dutilleux, makes sense that he is a student of classical music though.


These two are also very fine.


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## flamencosketches

Nice! I didn’t realize his music was so widely recorded.


----------



## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> Nice! I didn't realize his music was so widely recorded.


These are the ones I have.

He has a small oeuvre,very critical about his work.


----------



## millionrainbows

Mirror Image said:


> What I dislike is the randomness of Dutilleux's music. It just seems to lack any kind of melody and the harmonies aren't to my liking.


Ohh, that sounds exciting!


----------



## flamencosketches

Been getting into Dutilleux a bit lately, after picking up one of the Chandos CDs with Yan Pascal Tortelier. I think his music is quite brilliant, especially the violin concerto "L'arbre des songes", which is the first work of his I heard. Truly a unique spirit in French music – I know he is frequently compared to Debussy, but I think the composer closest to being a kindred spirit to him is Witold Lutoslawski. They have quite a bit in common, but at the same time are completely different from one another – two sides to the same coin? 

He is one of few French symphonists of his century, and both symphonies are good, especially the first. Dutilleux's first symphony reminds me a lot of Lutoslawski's first. 

Is anyone listening to Dutilleux lately?


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> He is one of few French symphonists of his century, and both symphonies are good, especially the first. Dutilleux's first symphony reminds me a lot of Lutoslawski's first.


They were good friends at the very least. I've always felt a connection between the two, but can't really put the reason for that into words. Maybe there's something similar in the shimmering orchestral textures they were both so wonderfully able to create? Certainly both shined most brightly in the world of orchestral music, as wonderful as their output for smaller ensembles was.



flamencosketches said:


> Is anyone listening to Dutilleux lately?


Yes, all the time. Most recently I listened to the _Mystère de l'instant_, a short but strangely evocative work, and the absolutely classic _Tout un monde lointain..._ for cello and orchestra, which is my favourite cello concerto ever written!

I'm currently feeling an intense craving to revisit _Correspondances_ and _Le temps l'horloge_, both for soprano and orchestra. Soon, soon...


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> the absolutely classic _Tout un monde lointain..._ for cello and orchestra, which is my favourite cello concerto ever written!


Thanks for saying that, I'm now going to order the CD with Mstislav Rostropovich performing that along with Lutoslawski's cello concerto, on good faith. You're right that both shine the brightest in orchestral music. Lutoslawski wrote a great string quartet and Dutilleux also wrote a quartet that I haven't heard (though I would like to), but they both dedicated the bulk of their careers to orchestral music. Shimmering textures is right.

I would like a mod to edit the title of this thread to take out the prejudicial bent from the OP, so this can be a proper Guestbook thread.


----------



## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> I would like a mod to edit the title of this thread to take out the prejudicial bent from the OP, so this can be a proper Guestbook thread.


Ha! The OP was banned several years ago. He seemed to have a hard time with fairly accessible music, and acted as though it was the composer's fault.


----------



## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Ha! The OP was banned several years ago. He seemed to have a hard time with fairly accessible music, and acted as though it was the composer's fault.


You mean he was too avant-garde for his own good?

I ordered the 'Orchestral, Piano, & Chamber Works' 5-CD on Erato. It was dirt cheap, $6.41 with free shipping. I like the French aesthetic which someguy mentioned in post #2, of 'pure sonority.'


----------



## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> You mean he was too avant-garde for his own good?
> 
> I ordered the 'Orchestral, Piano, & Chamber Works' 5-CD on Erato. It was dirt cheap, $6.41 with free shipping. I like the French aesthetic which someguy mentioned in post #2, of 'pure sonority.'


It appears that he found Dutilleux _too_ avant-garde. Funny, though, he is also a member on another forum which I will not name, and it appears he is now a die-hard Dutilleux fan. :lol: A lot can change in 10 years, I guess!

Do report on that box set Millionrainbows. I may get the 7CD version, the Dutilleux Centenary retrospective, on Erato. It's going for $16 on Amazon, what a steal. I believe it contains everything he wrote.


----------



## starthrower

I have the 5 CD Virgin box, and the 4 CD Erato set, but I'd get the 7 disc set if I was starting out. I guess it depends on the performers you prefer for the piano pieces or the symphonies. Actually, I never listen to the Symphonies in the boxes because I like the Chandos CD by Tortelier.

I miss some guy. He was very open minded about all kinds of music and quite knowledgeable. And I know he left because of some of the reactionary attitudes of some members, and some of the prudish moderating at this forum. But some of the those members have dropped by the wayside, thankfully. Dutilleux doesn't sound Avant garde at all to my ears but obviously it depends on you're musical tastes.


----------



## flamencosketches

I would call Dutilleux quite avant-garde in his own way. He may not have been pushing the limits of serial harmony or electronic sound manipulation à la Boulez but he was certainly a trailblazer. No one else was making music like this. Of course, I guess it depends how you define "avant-garde".

Does Dutilleux's music count as atonal? I reckon it probably is, but it sounds so harmonious to my ears. Perhaps I'm just that used to the mid-20th-century sound world. Much Boulez doesn't even strike me as dissonant anymore.

I'm listening to the Tortelier symphonies disc now.










The second symphony, "Le double". Something of a modern concerto grosso, fascinating piece.


----------



## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> It appears that he found Dutilleux _too_ avant-garde. Funny, though, he is also a member on another forum which I will not name, and it appears he is now a die-hard Dutilleux fan. :lol: A lot can change in 10 years, I guess!
> 
> Do report on that box set Millionrainbows. I may get the 7CD version, the Dutilleux Centenary retrospective, on Erato. It's going for $16 on Amazon, what a steal. I believe it contains everything he wrote.


Yeah, I had that in my cart and almost bought it, then decided to get a window air-conditioner brace instead. So it's got everything? That is tempting, and at $16, about $2.20 per disc.

@starthrower, yes, I miss someguy, too. His real name was Michael Karman, and he had a web magazine devoted to electro-acoustic music, and went to Europe to festivals and to interview composers.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> Yeah, I had that in my cart and almost bought it, then decided to get a window air-conditioner brace instead. So it's got everything? That is tempting, and at $16, about $2.20 per disc.
> 
> @starthrower, yes, I miss someguy, too. His real name was Michael Karman, and he had a web magazine devoted to electro-acoustic music, and went to Europe to festivals and to interview composers.


I'm not sure if it's everything, but that's got to be a good chunk of it. How many major works did he leave behind, anyway, maybe a dozen?


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> I'm not sure if it's everything, but that's got to be a good chunk of it. How many major works did he leave behind, anyway, maybe a dozen?


He was known for his small body. :lol:


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## starthrower

I still haven't fully absorbed his small body of works. But that's my own fault for trying to listen to too much music. But Dutilleux usually hits the spot for me when I listen to his music.


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## Richannes Wrahms

The two pieces I return to are the String Quartet 'Ainsi la nuit' and the 'Trois Strophes sur le nom de Sacher' for Cello.


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## millionrainbows

I just rec'd the 7-disc centenary set. It looks like there are duplications with the 5-CD edition.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I just rec'd the 7-disc centenary set. It looks like there are duplications with the 5-CD edition.


Hopefully not 5CDs worth of dupes, at least? :lol:

Thank you for buying both. Let me know in a month which is the one worth going for.


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## Guest

I don't know what 5 CD set you are talking about, but the "Erato" centenary edition is an extraordinary collection. It has one of my favorite recordings, the Rostropovich Cello Concerto. I also like the oboe sonata. It will give you all of the major works. You can supplement if there are favorite performers that you want to hear in some of the works. Amazon has a great deal on it now. $17.


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## starthrower

It gets confusing but the 5 CD is the Erato/Virgin box. And there's a 4 CD Erato box, and the 7 CD Centenary box. And the 6 disc DG box. The 5 disc set is no longer a good option. It's sold out and selling for 35-40 dollars. The Centenary set for 18 dollars is a steal. And it contains an excellent performance of "Le Double" by Munch.


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## mmsbls

Thanks for the heads up on the Centenary set. I just purchased it. I had many of the works but certainly not all.


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## millionrainbows

I'm glad I have both, especially in light of the price-hike. although there are some duplications between the 5 & 7-disc versions, these are minimal, and the different versions make it worthwhile.


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## flamencosketches

It is so tempting to go for the Centenary box, but I kind of want to finish the Chandos cycle first, I have two out of three CDs already. Tortelier is excellent in this material.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> It is so tempting to go for the Centenary box, but I kind of want to finish the Chandos cycle first, I have two out of three CDs already. Tortelier is excellent in this material.


I only want it for the symphonies, and the Rostropovich cello concerto performance. I don't know why they didn't use this performance in the first Erato box which I already have?


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I only want it for the symphonies, and the Rostropovich cello concerto performance. I don't know why they didn't use this performance in the first Erato box which I already have?


Probably they were holding the Rostropovich recording back so they could charge a premium for it as an individual disk. The Mork is nothing to sneeze at, I suppose. I wouldn't mind hearing it.

I think someone who has the 5CD set might find the Centennial edition worth it at $18, despite the partial overlap. The convert is not true, given the high price of the 5CD set these days. I few judicially selected individual discs would probably be more economical. A used copy of this release might serve well.










The Chandoe/Tortelier recordings are also nice.


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## starthrower

I remembered soon after my last post that I have that 2 disc EMI set. Now that Erato and EMI are under the Warner umbrella the Rostropovich performance is on the more recent Centenary box set.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I remembered soon after my last post that I have that 2 disc EMI set. Now that Erato and EMI are under the Warner umbrella the Rostropovich performance is on the more recent Centenary box set.


The 5 CD set was also released after the Warner acquisition of EMI. It is labeled "Erato" although the recordings are all originally EMI and Virgin releases. Choosing Mork over Rostropovich was a choice, since the EMI recording of the Cello Concerto was in their catalog.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there is/was also a pre-merger Erato box (4CDs) which collects many of the Erato recordings of Dutilleux.










There are some recordings with Rostropovich, Barenboim, Ozawa conducting, etc.


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## starthrower

^^^
That's the first box I bought. The Cello Concerto performed by the Finnish Radio Symphony/Arto Noras - cello.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> That's the first box I bought. The Cello Concerto performed by the Finnish Radio Symphony/Arto Noras - cello.


I see, I don't have the box, but I have several discs that were collected in it, including the Barenboim Symphonies and the Rostropovich. I should dig up that Rostropovich disc and give it a listen.


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## starthrower

The excellent Rostropovich disc in the Erato 4 CD box. Listening now!


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> The excellent Rostropovich disc in the Erato 4 CD box. Listening now!


Yes, the edition I have.


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## Guest

Listened to the original Munch/Lamoureux recording of Symphony No 2, from the Centenary Edition.










A more focused performance than the Barenboim recording I have recently been listening to. The audio from the 1960's is a bit distorted during the strongest climaxes, but still satisfying overall.

Reminds me that I also have a Munch recording of Metaboles somewhere, I should drag it out.


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## starthrower

^^^
I listened to it on YT the other day. I feel the same way. Razor sharp, disciplined, hair raising performance!

If anyone cares to listen, here it is.






Also available in this Munch Warner 13 CD box.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...munch-the-complete-warner-classics-recordings


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> I listened to it on YT the other day. I feel the same way. Razor sharp, disciplined, hair raising performance!


I'm listening to it now, from my 7-CD Centenary box (not available in the 5-CD box). The thing I find appealing about Dutilleaux is that he's a "harmonic" composer who always composes for the ear, even if it is dissonant and strange. Not by any system, and not atonal, but "not tonal."
In this sense, I think Frank Zappa would have liked his music.

View attachment 126392


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## Guest

Listened to Metaboles today (Rostropovich and Plasson recordings). A wonderful piece, some of the sonorities in the second movement for divisi strings are truly stunning (especially in the Rostropovich recording). The apotheosis at the end is also a wonder (especially in the Plasson recording). 

On an unrelated note, I happened upon an old listening journal I kept 20 years ago which had reference to my first time listening to Dulilleux, First and second symphonies conducted by Tortelier. My review was "Huh? I don't get it!" Things have changed.


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## flamencosketches

Baron Scarpia said:


> Listened to Metaboles today (Rostropovich and Plasson recordings). A wonderful piece, some of the sonorities in the second movement for divisi strings are truly stunning (especially in the Rostropovich recording). The apotheosis at the end is also a wonder (especially in the Plasson recording).
> 
> On an unrelated note, I happened upon an old listening journal I kept 20 years ago which had reference to my first time listening to Dulilleux, First and second symphonies conducted by Tortelier. My review was "Huh? I don't get it!" Things have changed.


Wow, that's amazing. I keep a journal, I write every day for the past year or so. (In previous years I've been much less consistent). It's mostly random thoughts on music listening, oftentimes stream of consciousness style. I bet it's a crazy feeling, reading what you write decades down the line.

Back on topic, I have not heard Metaboles or Ainsi la nuit; other than these, I am pretty familiar with most of his major works by now. Dutilleux must be one of the least prolific major composers of all time, on par with Webern, Berg etc. I am going to get the centenary box on Erato one of these days, when I decide that it is time to move on from what I have...: Tortelier conducting the symphonies, L'arbre des songes etc., and then Rostropovich playing the cello concerto. I'm quite satisfied with all of it.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Wow, that's amazing. I keep a journal, I write every day for the past year or so. (In previous years I've been much less consistent). It's mostly random thoughts on music listening, oftentimes stream of consciousness style. I bet it's a crazy feeling, reading what you write decades down the line.
> 
> Back on topic, I have not heard Metaboles or Ainsi la nuit; other than these, I am pretty familiar with most of his major works by now. Dutilleux must be one of the least prolific major composers of all time, on par with Webern, Berg etc. I am going to get the centenary box on Erato one of these days, when I decide that it is time to move on from what I have...: Tortelier conducting the symphonies, L'arbre des songes etc., and then Rostropovich playing the cello concerto. I'm quite satisfied with all of it.


I have kept a general journal at various periods, but never very conscientiously, and when I've looked back it has been utterly banal and dull. However, listening journals and reading journals always seem to be interesting to revisit. Around 2000 was a period when I listened a lot and discovered a lot of music, and entries from that period often had surprises. Sometimes I am convinced I hated a recording I listened to on those days, but read good things about it in my journal.

In my revisiting of Dutilleux, Metaboles has become a favorite.


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## Janspe

I still think the topic of this thread should be changed to just include the composer's name!

Meanwhile, I just listened to a performance of _The Shadows of Time_ from YouTube: L'Orchestre philharmonique de Radio France, led by Mikko Franck.






Haven't listened to this one in ages so it's great to revisit it. Very atmospheric piece and quite haunting at places. Fun to see a video recording and observe how all the sounds that Dutilleux conjures up from the orchestra are actually produced.

_... Pourquoi nous? Pourquoi l'étoile? ..._


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> I still think the topic of this thread should be changed to just include the composer's name!
> 
> Meanwhile, I just listened to a performance of _The Shadows of Time_ from YouTube: L'Orchestre philharmonique de Radio France, led by Mikko Franck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't listened to this one in ages so it's great to revisit it. Very atmospheric piece and quite haunting at places. Fun to see a video recording and observe how all the sounds that Dutilleux conjures up from the orchestra are actually produced.
> 
> _... Pourquoi nous? Pourquoi l'étoile? ..._


Agreed. It's funny, the OP of this thread frequents another board I'm a member of, and he's now a huge Dutilleux fan. :lol:

Re: Shadows of Time, I've heard it a few times but can't remember what it sounds like. I'll have to give this a listen. Lately, the Dutilleux I've been going for includes the two late song cycles: Correspondances and Le temps l'horloge.


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