# Beethoven 9 Disaster - Maximianno Cobra



## Kurkikohtaus

Have you ever been infuriated with a performance? Have you ever witnessed something so horrifically _wrong_ that it went beyond any viable definition of subjectivity and was purely and wholly in the realm of abhorment?

Click HERE, scroll down, click on the videos and listen to the tempos at any given point in any given movement.

*WARNING*
This is not for the faint of heart or faint of stomach.

I couldn't care less how holy Mr. (Father?) Cobra is, he should be tied up and shot.


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## EricIsAPolarBear

Listened to as much of the first movement as i could handle. This is pretty laughable stuff! Almost sounds as if the video keeps needing to sync up or something, only way i can understand these spaces in between notes. It is kind of painful actually as you anticipate the next notes and they don't come. 

Do you think there would be a riot a la Rite of Spring if this were performed live?


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## Kurkikohtaus

This could never, ever ever ever be performed live. No orchestra would give a complete fool such as this a chance to put this travesty on stage, no matter how much he paid them.

That said, the music world is full of amateur diletantes such as Mr. Cobra, who are able to amass large $um$ of Money to realize their projects. As long as they stay on DVD behind closed doors, no harm done, I suppose. Still riles me, though.

*EricPolar*, just listen to the beginning of the 3rd movement. Please. For laughs.


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## Kurkikohtaus

I can't leave this alone.

Mr. Cobra has a website: CLICK

I sent him a rather sharp message and invited him to the discussion here. I hope he joins us, for the sake of integrity and all that is right in the world.

P.S. The reason I am so adamant about this is that I am performing my first Beethoven 9th in March... call it a research project.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Grrr! There go, my heart's abhorrence
Water your damned flower-pots, do!
If hate killed men, Father Cobra
G_d's blood, would not mine kill you!?

Extra points to the first person who can (without internet searching) identify the poetic reference here.


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## opus67

I'm listening to Mozart's 'Flute and Harp Concerto' now, and right after it ends, I'm going to listen to the awfulness you people seem to talk about. Reading your comments, I think Bohm's last recording can be considered fast.


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## opus67

Okay, to be frank with you, I started with the second movement and heard no more than 8 seconds of it. That was evidence enough!!!(And, of course, I couldn't take it anymore!) You know what's worse? That video starts with a close up of the word 'Vivace' from what I think is Beethoven's autograph. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I think Bohm's version might well be the slowest in recorded history, because this one's a joke!


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## Ephemerid

i t h i n k t h i s i s j u s t a b i t 

t o o o o o o 

s 
l 
o
w

I've been skimming thru a bit more of this guy's stuff-- I mean, look, I love to hear Bach's air played at a good slow tempo, but this is absurd-- the grace notes ending up sounding like bloody passing tones!  

It basically sounds like he's cut the tempo in half for everything.

OMG and Mozart's Symphony No. 40...


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## Ephemerid

d a v e ?
w h a t 
a r e 
y o u 
d o i n g ,
d a v e ?
s t o p , 
d a v e ,
s t o p 
m y 
m i n d i s g o i n g . . .


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## Kurkikohtaus

opus67 said:


> You know what's worse? That video starts with a close up of the word 'Vivace' from what I think is Beethoven's autograph.


opus67, even funnier is the last movement, also beginning with a close up of "Presto", which he does in a moderato "3".

@foolonthehill, good reference to 2001... i like that film. I even like the part where he's jogging through the spaceship, slowly... slowly... it's great.

@chitown, that poetry rings a bell... but I can't think of what it is... can you let us know when we're allowed to search?


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## opus67

Kurkikohtaus said:


> opus67, even funnier is the last movement, also beginning with a close up of "Presto", which he does in a moderato "3".


Yup. I later saw that too. (Was quite curious how that movement would start. ) I assumed that this conductor was this bratty son of a billionaire, who bought him an orchestra to play with (no pun intended), but his biography doesn't seem to suggest anything of that sort.


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## Morigan

The most painful part for me was the last coda... I think I just died a little inside


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## Ephemerid

Geez, I'm still just incredulous... Reading thru his "Tempo, Space & Music" it turnes out that yeah, besaically he's just cutting the tempo for everything in half, which leads to some truly absurd results. 

Its bad enough slowing faster music down, but when it comes to music that is slow, it gets really bizarre. You have to go REALLY slow then. 

And not only that but there is no historical justification for this...?  And as far as Bach's Orchestra Suites go, while they were not modelled on popular dances, but only derivative, they were still more or less based on those rhythms. It makes no musical sense, no historical sense and any sense of continuity and energy is lost. 

Oh god, Beethoven's fifth sounds like a corpse drained of all its blood...

It actually sounds like muzak like this...


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## Chi_townPhilly

A few more thoughts:

1) It's a good thing that there has been a subtle shift in our membership lately... that way, we can avoid the possible brouhaha about "sullying-the-reputation-of-an-academic." *BWAH*HA_Ha_ha!

2) Just like would-be rockers have their "guitar-heroes," I guess it's possible that wanna-be conductors have their "podium heroes." Maybe his is Celibidache. Well, just like Lloyd Bentson upbraided Dan Quayle ("you're no Jack Kennedy"), this man should be told "you're no Sergiu Celibidache."

3) Mahler once had a quote about "sinning against the holy law of dynamics." I thought about parallel "sinning against the holy law of temporal proportion," and perhaps, based on the evidence, it's not simply a venial sin.

4) @Maestro K: feel free to research the poetry whenever you wish. However, please leave the floor open to someone else's guess, if made in the next 18 hours.


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## tenor02

dear god that's the most terrible thing i've ever heard. im listening and sub consciously counting it at the same time in my head  WHY??!!!

lol, and i had stopped the London Symphonies to hear this version -_- (no joke lol)


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## Kurkikohtaus

tenor02 said:


> WHY??!!!


Because he has superimposed an abstract and ridiculous philosophy on all of music to make up for lack of talent, ability and inspiration. And because somewhere during all of this he came to be backed by big money from somewhere, so now his idea, however revolting, has a platform.


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## Chi_townPhilly

fool on the hill said:


> d a v e ?
> w h a t
> a r e
> y o u
> d o i n g ,
> d a v e ?
> s t o p ,
> d a v e ,
> s t o p
> m y
> m i n d i s g o i n g . . .


As long as we're quoting movies, Mr. Hill, how about this one:

Main character: It's a _sin_! IT'S A *SIN*!!

Supporting character: What's all this about _sin_?

Main character: If you can do that to _Beethoven_, you can do that to *ANYBODY*!! 
(skipping ahead)-
Supporting character: I suppose this may be where _punishment_ comes in. Gov'nor ought to be pleased...


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## Kurkikohtaus

Clockwork Orange, Malcolm McDowell as Alex.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Clockwork Orange, Malcolm McDowell as Alex.


Oh, yeah! Once again, let's hear it for Kubrick. 
Now... about that poem: the writer is 1) English, 2) 19th Century, and 3) has spouse almost as famous as he is (well, that last one narrows it down to two!)


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## Gustav

speaking of clockwork orange, i wonder what Alex's response would be, had he listened to Cobra's interpretation.


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## Rondo

This guy could learn a few lessons from that leather coat conductor someone showed us a little while back.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Now... about that poem: the writer is 1) English, 2) 19th Century, and 3) has spouse almost as famous as he is (well, that last one narrows it down to two!)


O.K.: Time's up (or, it could be that there are those who aren't worked up enough to care). That's okay... let me just say, for the sake of "squaring-the-circle," if nothing else--

Re: post 5... "Soliliquy of the Spanish Cloister": Robert Browning.


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## Yagan Kiely

> speaking of clockwork orange, i wonder what Alex's response would be, had he listened to Cobra's interpretation.


Before or after the therapy?

I heard the second movement, and went cold inside. Lucky it's hot outside.


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## David C Coleman

HAHAHA!! This is so absurd it's actually amusing.    I listened to ahem! parts of the Ninth..( I couldn't stomach the whole thing)..And some of his other attempts as well..

I am surprised that the performers could actually keep a straight face throughout the, what seems like three hours this went on for!!!...

I'm sure they had to go out for several toilet breaks during rehearsals!!

It's the art of how to completely ruin culture...

All I can say is Maximianno "What a Load of COBRAS!"


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## Gustav

I'm sure Cobra can conduct Beethoven (after watching a rather "normal" earlier video of him conducting 7th). Maybe he had a fit of madness, but that's what classical music has come to today. Some people think they are making something "new" and "revolutionary", but not knowing what they are doing is pretty much being done already, and pretty idiotic really.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Some people think they are making something "new" and "revolutionary", but not knowing what they are doing is pretty much being done already, and pretty idiotic really.


I share the same view in relation to a fair amount of contemporary compositions.


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## David C Coleman

Yagan Kiely said:


> I share the same view in relation to a fair amount of contemporary compositions.


Hi There. What do you mean by this? Do you think that Classical music has "shot it's bolt"? Do you think that music can go into new directions or have we exhausted all possible ways of expressing music?(Pop, Jazz, etc. included) Can the popularity and influence of the "old" masters be ever reproduced or has Western art Music been banished to the very back row for ever?
(Maybe I am starting a new thread with this idea!!)


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## Yagan Kiely

Originaly, changing trends in music was like evolution, it happend naturally and over time. In the modern era, people are trying to be different, _just_ to be different. Mozart for example, was different - but he was only different in so much as he thought it wouldimprove music. A lot of music these days, will be laughed at by the majority of the people in the western world.

As far as music trends, today (in pop) I hear a lot of bands going back to the style of the 60s. I don't think that Classical music is dead, I just think we have skipped far too much due to the need to be strikingly different. There are a lot of possible styles in between Wagner and Stravinsky that have not been explored.


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## David C Coleman

Yagan Kiely said:


> Originaly, changing trends in music was like evolution, it happend naturally and over time. In the modern era, people are trying to be different, _just_ to be different. Mozart for example, was different - but he was only different in so much as he thought it wouldimprove music. A lot of music these days, will be laughed at by the majority of the people in the western world.
> 
> As far as music trends, today (in pop) I hear a lot of bands going back to the style of the 60s. I don't think that Classical music is dead, I just think we have skipped far too much due to the need to be strikingly different. There are a lot of possible styles in between Wagner and Stravinsky that have not been explored.


Interesting comments,

I would have thought that the era between Wagner and Stravinsky was quite well covered by a raft of composers with different styles and national flavours, (Debussy, Faure, Sibelius, Nielsen, Elgar, Vaughn Williams, Ives, Mahler and Rachmaninov to name but a few).

My observations are that the outset of pop music is a result of tonal breakdown in art music and most people want a good tune to hear and sing to and rarely get it in twentieth century art music..It's just far too inaccessible..


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## Yagan Kiely

> I would have thought that the era between Wagner and Stravinsky was quite well covered by a raft of composers with different styles and national flavours, (Debussy, Faure, Sibelius, Nielsen, Elgar, Vaughn Williams, Ives, Mahler and Rachmaninov to name but a few).


They are all still, rather large jumps in difference. Compare the differences between Mozart and Haydn, Bach and Handel; they aren't huge.

The tradition if trying to be different really started as early back as Beethoven; after all, what was is 3rd symphony about?

Strauss is one of the composers who did retrospectively fill the blank, his operatic style is not that dissimilar to Wagner and one would be excused if you mixed the two up (on some occasions).


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## Kurkikohtaus

All this discussion is very interesting, some good points are being made.

I would only ask that we all remember one thing: Cobra is a disaster.


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## RebLem

Good grief! A finale that is over 40 minutes long? A scherzo that is 23 minutes+ long? Where in the world is that a dance movement? Perhaps at the Annual Dinner of the Arthritis Foundation.

And why, after each movement (except maybe the first, where the vid went out several minutes before the music, does he keep waving his arms even though the music has stopped? It is instructive to look at the timer--you will find that it often skips a second, or two, or three, or even four or five. And those slitzhes that we all thought were a thing of the past after the LP era? My dog Scout, poor little thing, got really scared. At first he was puzzled. I was listening on my computer, of course, not in the living room to my stereo system where I usually listen to music, and he kept jumping up to see if the papers on my desk had caught fire or something! He was jumping around and obviously afraid for my safety. He poked his nose at the bass module on the floor and then tried to stand on his hind legs to see the two speakers on the desk. Finally, when he couldn't figure out what was wrong, he just started barking, and then left the room because it was just too much for him. I'm going to have to take him to an off leash dog park soon to make up for how badly he has been treated by Dr. Cobra.


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## Kurkikohtaus

Dear RebLem,

Scout is obviously an intelligent animal and faithful companion, he is to be commended. A pet owns me as well, so as an owned, I have some experiences with animal communication, and I believe you may have missed the point that Scout was trying to get across. _He_ wasn't confused and distraught, he was worried about what the experience might be doing to _You_! As a knowledgeable listener, and having experienced many hours by your side with your real sound-system, he knew that something was badly amiss as soon as he heard the opening of the Dirge (scherzo) taken "in 3". He was worried that the horrid experience might have irreversable reprecussions on your collective listening sessions, that it would change your musical tastes irreversably and eventually lead you to joining the Church of Scientology.

A little reminder for the rest of you who are following this thread, I have invited Cobra via e-mail for the second time to join us here and defend himself, I have gotten no response. No surprise though, he's probably still reading the first e-mail, _v e r y s l o w l y . . ._


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## rich23434565

Wow, how bizarre 

There can't possibly be any artistic or interpretative reason for these tempi  One of the most genuinely awful things I've ever heard come out of an orchestra. But does the _Adagio molto e cantabile_ work on any level? It is the most sublime thing ever penned by a human being, and I do love to hear it played at a genuinely slow tempo


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## Count_Dusseldorf

Ugh, I don't know how this guy can possibly have any pride left after ruining those pieces of music. can he evan call himself a conductor? I listened to what he did to the ninth symphony... 

truly disgraceful.


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## BassBoneTone

Hi everyone,

My question is what kind of musician would let him get away with doing that?


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## SalieriIsInnocent

the first movement is draggy its a build up peice not a march of death. it sounds like the conducter is slow and arthritic


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## SalieriIsInnocent

is the video slowed down at all cause i dont know a thing about conducting and i could do it at the right tempo better


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## Yagan Kiely

If you slow down audio, the pitch drops. Unless you manage to insert more information.

The only way to speed something up and keep pitch is to lose information.


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## David C Coleman

I know Cobra is rediculous! But I do feel, personally that a lot of conductors do take speeds to quickly. And Beethoven is a prime example. Maybe, it's personal thing..The music should be aloud to "breathe", And you should be able to hear every note..Not just a blur..I'm more in the Klemperer mould of thinking than Karajan, even thought they are both wonderful conductors....


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## Yagan Kiely

Within reason, some music requires excessive speeds and 'blur' to be effective in that which it wants to convey.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

In that case it is the most terrible thing I've heard since.....No That Topps 50 cent on the worst thing Ive heard


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## Gustav

Yagan Kiely said:


> Within reason, some music requires excessive speeds and 'blur' to be effective in that which it wants to convey.


for instance?


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## Yagan Kiely

Hectic music that is designed to signify panic etc.

Can't think of any now - but I know there are some.


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## David C Coleman

Yagan Kiely said:


> Hectic music that is designed to signify panic etc.
> 
> Can't think of any now - but I know there are some.


Ok I can think of an example where playing very quick inhances the mood of the music - Vivaldi, 4 Seasons, Summer, final movement..Brilliant!! (I'm sure there are others)
But I like my Beethoven to have to time take in a little more air!! (Purely personal of course)..


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## SalieriIsInnocent

well some instruments are too slow and some are too fast. I just cant beleive the ratings it got.


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## Yagan Kiely

I generally agree with Gustav, but I think a blanket statement is too much of a generalization.

However, recordings I have do not have a tempo problem luckily.


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## Kurkikohtaus

David C Coleman said:


> But I like my Beethoven to have to time take in a little more air!! (Purely personal of course)


,
Interesting that you say "MY" Beethoven, I respect you for that, and I respect your personal opinion and preferences.

However, there is one thing we should be aware of as listeners when judging performances of Beethoven, especially in relation to tempo. When a conductor approaches Beethoven, in almost every movement of every symphony he is faced with an immediate and difficult problem, both practically and philosophically. _Beethoven's mm markings are "too fast"._

There have been attempts to perform and record the symphonies at the exact tempos that Beethoven calls for (i.e. Norrington). While these efforts are interesting _documents_ in that they give us an idea of "what it would sound like _if..._", they are hardly examples of standard practice or good music making. So then for a "normal" performance, the question becomes "how much slower is OK" before Beethoven's intentions become twisted into something that destroys the _character_ of the movement as he intended it?

Let me elaborate. The first mvmt of the 5th Symphony is indicated at quarter note = 108. I defy any conductor with a medium sized orchestra (strings 12-10-8-6-4 or something...) to try that. It's almost impossible. 104 still sounds a little hurried, while 96-100 has become a sort of "standard". But when the tempo drops below 96, say to 88 or so, _the music suddenly takes on a different "character"_... it's not just _slower_, it begins to communicate something very different, sets a different mood. These things are very subjective, but *very real*, as a trained and experienced ear will pick up on it immediately.

With this said, the responsible conductor's goal then is to imagine the tempo that Beethoven indicates (as a sort of maximum), and then _find out how much slower it can be done without changing the *character*_. An incredibly daunting task, in my opinion the hardest tempo decision process in all of Classical music.

THIS is where COBRA has FAILED.

He has distorted the music through an abstract theory that does not come from within the music and completely taken away the _character_ that Beethoven intended.


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## DonDiego256

Oh, the pain.....Bohm's version (with Gwyneth Jones) is my favorite BTW. I'm used to more relaxed tempi. But this was ridiculous!


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## David C Coleman

Yes, I do know that Beethovens Tempi are on the quick side (actually I like the first movement of the 5th to be played quickly), But I like the structure of a piece to be emphasised generally, especially in Classical era music, (say from late Mozart to Schubert)...And in no way am I condoning Cobra..

But Beethovens music can be played successfully at different tempi because he is such a master!..


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## Artemis

It's just as well there are some 235 other versions of Symphony No 9 to choose from, as listed on the ArkivMusic website, which is why I wonder why this rubbish version by Mr Cobra (which isn't included in the list) is even worth even talking about.


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## Mozart_Oboe_Beethoven

That should never be performed.....EVER! At least, not that way.

That was Painful.....excruciatingly painful. 
Especially the 4th movement. That's not presto. The little 3 min. section of Ode To Joy that I have from a CD that has excerpts of that stuff sounds better.


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## D.SCH.

However handsome Mr Cobra might be, it doesn't make him less unmusical. That was awful. Especially the second movement. And the first. It's supposed to be forceful, brutal and somewhat desperate, isn't it? This sounds like chamomille tea diluted with mineral water.


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## tutto

provokacia


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## Methodistgirl

The music in this symphony is supposed to be more like a celebration. I heard it
on a classical radio station here in Murry Kentucky. The orchestra playing the
symphony on this radio station played it with more like a celebration and very
jublient. This version is way too slow for it to be enjoyable even though it was
very beautiful it was too slow to sound right. I'm not really that educated in
classical music but I can still tell when a piece isn't done right. I noticed some
thing else wrong with it and that's the key I heard it played in. It was too slow.
The messege in this symphony should say "Let's rejoice with joy and celebration
of life. This one took so long that I got out my knitting project.
judy tooley


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## Kurkikohtaus

Methodistgirl said:


> I noticed some thing else wrong with it and that's the key I heard it played in. It was too slow.


Do you mean it was too "LOW"?

I doubt that the music was transposed into C, but perhaps the excruciatingly slow tempos create an illusion of a lower key.


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## Rondo

This now reminds me of another conductor. I can't seem to recall his name, but he has conducted the PROMS some, has curly dark hair, really goofy-looking and always conducts everything so fast and crazily that it just drains and ruins the piece being performed. He would certainly be in the same class as Cobra, as far as I'm concerned (though, ruining great music in the opposite way).


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## Marina

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Have you ever been infuriated with a performance? Have you ever witnessed something so horrifically _wrong_ that it went beyond any viable definition of subjectivity and was purely and wholly in the realm of abhorment?


Yes, yes, I know that feeling.

For example, I believe that anyone viewing the youtube video 



will see that there is here is a serious problem when performances of this standard take place on the university level. The conductor in this video was quoted in as saying"The quality of our in coming students is very high and they are very hard working" in the university's Alumni Magazine in Spring 2006 .The performance on the video took place in spring of 2007, so the quote should apply to the students performing with the many ringers that are in this orchestra.


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## David C Coleman

Marina said:


> Yes, yes, I know that feeling.
> 
> For example, I believe that anyone viewing the youtube video
> 
> 
> 
> will see that there is here is a serious problem when performances of this standard take place on the university level. The conductor in this video was quoted in as saying"The quality of our in coming students is very high and they are very hard working" in the university's Alumni Magazine in Spring 2006 .The performance on the video took place in spring of 2007, so the quote should apply to the students performing with the many ringers that are in this orchestra.


Yes it sounds awful! but full credit to them in taking on one of the most epic pieces of music ever written!! They can only get better..


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## Dividend

Just passing by here, finding your comments in this thread kinda amusing.  
Haven't heard it yet, but will in a couple of minutes... I am quite familiar with the 9th and have many recordings around. 1 of them I find really bad, out of 6, probably because of the recording equipment used in that case. The soundengineer must have been drunk or something. But apart from a bad recording, i am really not bothered by creative thinking in performing classical works. As long as they don't make rap out of them.. 

Don't know if this is the case here, the comments don't give any hint. I'm just writing this because I am really really bad (since birth or maybe before) at hearing a bad perfomance, that demands a dufferent thinking than i use when listening to say beethoven. But sometimes maybe. I can identify the patterns and also different notes in the composition very well, but lack a sense of "how is it supposed to be?" and also often fail to point out "errors" that my mind correct before the signals enters my frontal lobe. Or something. Maybe I need formal education.. 

Okay, hope the link doesn't ruin my sleep now...


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## Dividend

Interesting. And fyi, I didn't enjoy it 

Test failed.


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## Kezza

All I can say is that that is... Terrible.
It hurts my ears.
The recording I have played by the Cleveland orchestra (Christoph von Dohnanyi)
is pretty perfect to how I imagine the piece to be.

I also have like 3 recordings Beethovens 5th and one of them is pain stakingly slow. It dissapoints me that it's the one that is on the same same CD as Beethoven #4 which I really enjoy.

But when I first heard it I wanted to smash my CD player.


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## Lisztfreak

A brutal rape of a masterpiece!  Nothing more that I can say...

I think the argument against such interpretations as is Cobra's is in the very character of the composer. Hey, it's by Beethoven!!! Beethoven, you hear me? He was a man of force, of ardour, of temperament - would he ever intend a scherzo to be played at the tempo of a funeral dirge? The first movement is all about destruction, panic and anomy - there's no room for diminuendi and rallentandi. 
I'm pretty sure Beethoven is thouroughly shaken in his grave. His bones *rattle furiously*. Unlike Cobra's recording...


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## Yagan Kiely

> His bones rattle furiously


Deat god I read that REALLY wrong...

I read it as "He bones (Simon) Rattle furiously"*

:|
*


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## Rondo

Yagan Kiely said:


> Deat god I read that REALLY wrong...
> 
> I read it as "He bones (Simon) Rattle furiously"*
> 
> :|
> *


Well...he used a very explicit metaphor to begin with.


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## Yagan Kiely

Indeed and that may have prompted me misreading.


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## PostMinimalist

I once arranged a cut down version of the 1st movement of the 5th for Pedal timpani, xylophone, piccolo, contrabassoon and banjo which was played at a lunch time concert when I was a student, but that pales into insignificance compared to this monstrosity! I do, however, understand where he gets some of these tempos from. (AHA!) The recitativo at the beginning of the 4th movement is spliced together from bits of all the previous movements. He is trying (wrongly) to unify the material here and apply it to their original contexts. This is what happens when you let someone with a PhD in musicology loose with an orchestra. To much thinking and not enough (if any) sensitivity for the music!
I read bits from his site and was horrified to hear that on the strength of one concert he was appointed chief conductor of some major Brazilian Orchestra!
It seems to me that more and more the music business is being run by ignorant tycoons for uneducated (no disrespect) riff-raff. (oops, I got a bit carried away there!)


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## Yagan Kiely

> To much thinking


Clearly this isn't the case as anyone who thinks would not produce something as ignorant as this.


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## PostMinimalist

We can get into what 'thinking' and 'ignorant' mean but my point is that he used an academic approach to solve a problem (Beethoven's broken metronome) which has been long solved my musicians using their sensitivity. The guy is trying to reinvent the wheel using trigonometry and it comes out square! Og the caveman just sat on a log and it rolled away. 
That's what I mean by too much thinking.


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## purple99

I don't see what all the fuss is about. He takes it slow, so what? It's a good thing for eccentrics to be able to express themselves. It's harmless and entertaining. It's also useful to have one slow recording so you can hear all the notes. It's not to my taste but lots of things make me reach for the off switch. Going by the goosed schoolgirl shrieking on this thread you'd think he'd dug up Beethoven's corpse and fed it to his Pekenese!

"horrified...ignorant...uneducated...brutal rape of a masterpiece...infuriated...horrifically wrong... purely and wholly in the realm of abhorment... incredulous..."

Well get you!


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## kiwipolish

Maximianno Cobra has a theory about tempi, which he briefly explains on his website. There is also an opportunity to express your view in a poll. I clicked on "I do not agree", which allowed me to see the survey's results: 87% agree with his theory! - That means either that

- this forum's members are not representative of the general public; or

- Cobra's website has only been viewed by his mum, dad, and family

The very serious Revue Musicale de Suisse Romande has an article about Cobra's theory and his Beethoven interpretations (in French only, unfortunately). The article qualifies Cobra as "brave", but does not endorse his theory.

I personally find Cobra's theory, his marketing and attitude suspicious. These Hungarian musicians must really need the money to play under him! And did you hear his 5th???!!!???!!!


----------



## purple99

kiwipolish said:


> The very serious Revue Musicale de Suisse Romande has an article about Cobra's theory and his Beethoven interpretations (in French only, unfortunately).


I've fed it through Babelfish, with the usual hilarious results.  Young Maximianno emerges rather well. At least there's no schoolgirl shrieking. 



> *Is necessary it to play Beethoven twice less quickly?*
> by Vincent Arlettaz
> 
> It is a well-known problem of the interpreters and musicologists: the tempi recommended by Beethoven itself for many its works are -- by their speed -- with the limit of the achievable one. The attitudes adopted by the type-setter relative with the use of the metronome are not besides free from a certain contradiction; most of its works were already written when Johann Nepomuk Maelzel, plagiarizing the invention of Diederich Nicolaus Winkel (German bench in Amsterdam), puts on the market the first system of satisfactorily functioning metronome. At the beginning of 1817, same Maelzel sends to 200 type-setters a specimen of his machine. Not very satisfied with the usual procedures up to that point as regards notation tempo, Beethoven seizes at once the new apparatus; and in Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung of Leipzig of December 17, 1817, it publishes a table of metronomisation giving of the tempi for the whole of its symphonies already made up to this date (i.e. until the eighth included). Later, in other articles, in more or less public letters or its books of conversation, it will approach under this point of view of other works, such as Septuor COp 20, the quartets, the sonata known as "Hammerklavier" or the 9th symphony.
> 
> The enthusiasm of Beethoven for the new instrument finds echo in several of its letters, in particular that written in November 1817 in Ignaz Franz von Mosel, propagator of the ideas of Maelzel:
> 
> "I delighted cordially owing to the fact that you share my way of seeing the things, relative with the indications of tempo, which still come from [the age] from musical cruelty; because, to quote only one example, that is there of absurder than [the term] Allegro, which means once and for all merry, whereas we are often so far away from the direction of this indication, so that the piece itself says the opposite of the indication. -- Concerning these four principal movements, which are far from having the veracity and the accuracy of the four principal winds, let us not hold there we [?]. [...] -- as for me, I for a long time imagined to give up these absurd names Allegro, Andante, Adagio, Presto; the metronome of Maelzel gives the best opportunity [...] of it to us" (note 2)
> 
> But of other statements made by same Beethoven (or allotted to him, in particular by its assistant Anton Schindler) show on the contrary a certain reserve compared to the metronome. Thus, the autograph of the Lied "So oder so" (WoO 148, at the beginning of 1817) would have comprised the following indication:
> 
> "100 according to Maelzel, but that can be valid only for the first measurements, because the feeling has also its measurement, but that cannot be expressed completely according to this degree (namely 100)." (note 3)
> 
> There is more: according to Schindler, Beethoven would have given up more tardily the use of the metronome, having noted important numerical divergences between various models. It would then have gone until disputing in its base even the legitimacy of the metronomic approach:
> 
> "(...) Metronome No! That which has a feeling right does not need any. As for that which is deprived by it, the metronome will not be to him of any utility, it will deviate some [?] with all the orchestra. (...)" (note 4)
> 
> One could wonder here about the credibility of the dires of Schindler; but in addition, it is an established fact that Beethoven complained more once dysfunctions of its metronome, that it must even send twice at least at the repairer. (note 5)
> 
> As it is seen, the question does not have anything simple. It remains that the tempi indicated by Beethoven very often pose problem. Many assumptions were planned to try to give an account of it. Mechanical wear or a bad maintenance of its metronome was in particular evoked; other commentators tried to show the "abstract" aspect of these métronomisations, conceived at one time when the deafness of Beethoven is practically total. A third explanation is even more radical, in what it supposes that the tempi indicated by Beethoven are quite simply twice too high if one includes/understands them in a strictly literal way: according to this assumption, it is not on a simple beat, but of course a return ticket of the beam of the metronome that Beethoven would have founded its metronomic indications.
> 
> It is this idea, stated by Willem Retze Talsma (note 6), which inspired work of a young musicologist and Brazilian leader established in France, Maximianno Cobra. This last is the author of a thesis on the symphonies of Beethoven supported in 1999 at the University of Paris-Sorbonne (note 7), and especially the initiator of a vast project of practical application of the conclusions of this research. To date, about fifteen compact disks were published by the Hodie label created by Maximianno Cobra, proposing "slow" versions of major works of Beethoven (9th symphony, Lieder), but also of Mozart (Requiem, openings, symphonies N° 25 and 40). With the head of an orchestra trained Hungarian musicians for the majority, the free-Brazilian chief was not satisfied to propose a conventional recording of these works, but called upon the most modern technologies of the compatible disc numerical, at the same time video and audio ("audio DVD"). The complete catalogue of this collection is available on Internet (www.hodie-world.com).
> 
> One can only admire courage, the force of conviction and the energy of which proof Maximianno Cobra made to conclude its project. The orchestra and the singers whom it joined together are completely equal to the task which is entrusted to them. One can say of them in the same way technical sides of the sound recording. One will not be surprised however to learn only this radical approach from the problems of tempo at Beethoven produces a result which one can only describe as very astonishing. It does not belong to us to say if that is due only to the practices acquired by the public during the 100 or 150 last years of the history of the music, or if there is a more fundamental problem. At all events, for diverting that it is, the listening as of these recordings does not leave be more instructive: one will hear there even for the first time of the details of the writing which, with the tempo which is that usually taken by the current chiefs, disappear drowned in orchestral fabric. In addition to their interest properly musicologic, these discs thus have an undeniable didactic value.
> 
> For certain movements where the tempo indicated by Beethoven is particularly fast, the version "return ticket" tends to approach a kind of moderate value (note 8) which, in other circumstances, was also sought by several other chiefs, most famous being undoubtedly Sergiu Celibidache (1912-1996). One can thus wonder whether, in some of these cases, the assumption of Talsma and Cobra are not relevant: as it well is known, a frequent error at the time of tests of sight reading is that which consists in duplicating (or dividing by two) the value of the measuring unit. Couldn't Beethoven sometimes have been victim of such an error? In this case, the unfolding of the values would be only accidental, and not systematic (note 9).
> 
> In a more general way, attempts similar to that of Maximianno Cobra have the merit to call into question excesses of tempo which are usual certain musicians or chiefs more anxious to shine by an easy virtuosity than to find the expression best adapted to works of which they are the interpreters. Because -- it is important to point out it -- one should not confuse speed and promptness: an exaggeratedly carried tempo will result indeed in to level the specific articulations (detached, bound, piqué, accents, etc), which can do all "bondissement", all "swing" of a movement.
> 
> In short, one can only be delighted to see of such questions given about the public place, in one century when the technical perfection of the executions is certainly without preceding history, but where the spirit of musical creations of last by far is not always included/understood and is not returned as it would deserve to be it. If it is enabled to us to emit a regret, it would be the following: undoubtedly it would have been of the most interest to propose not only the "slow" versions presumedly original, but also of the versions applying in a literal way the metronomic indications of Beethoven (at least for some movements); that would have made it possible to very concretely judge amplitude of the problem. In addition, the scientific research itself could be thorough front, and of the brief replies sought by other means, such this one, evoked but not developed by Maximianno Cobra: what can we know of the total duration of works at the time of their creation, in particular using the reports in concerts which reached us? This way of examining the problem undoubtedly does not go without difficulties, because it is perhaps not easy to define up to what point one held account in this time of the recoveries requested by the partitions of Beethoven (but which are very often omitted at present) (note 10). Moreover, that to say case of the metronomic indications based on a ternary value (black pointed, white pointed, etc)? These last do not tend to contradict the movement of the beam -- who, if one includes/understands it like a return ticket, makes hear a binary rate/rhythm? Lastly, so really the metronome was used by Beethoven and by its contemporaries in complete oscillations (i.e. in "return ticket"), when can the passage to the modern use (in half-oscillations) be located? Considering the extent of the consequences of such a change, one could expect that certain witnesses spoke about it.
> 
> It is seen, the recordings suggested by Maximianno Cobra have the merit to raise many interrogations, and to give even to the center of the debate certain essential aspects -- but neglected sometimes well -- art of interpretation.


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## David C Coleman

purple99 said:


> I don't see what all the fuss is about. He takes it slow, so what? It's a good thing for eccentrics to be able to express themselves. It's harmless and entertaining. It's also useful to have one slow recording so you can hear all the notes. It's not to my taste but lots of things make me reach for the off switch. Going by the goosed schoolgirl shrieking on this thread you'd think he'd dug up Beethoven's corpse and fed it to his Pekenese!
> 
> "horrified...ignorant...uneducated...brutal rape of a masterpiece...infuriated...horrifically wrong... purely and wholly in the realm of abhorment... incredulous..."
> 
> Well get you!


Yeah, but the guy is just trying to make a fast buck by trying to con the public into think ing that he has a found a "new" way of expressing and performing classical music. 
Have you noticed how members of the musical community have rejected him and he has isolated himself. Will he ever get to conduct the VPO or BPO with his interpretations. Don't think so!! 
I mean there's slow as in Celibidache, Klemperer and others but this is just ridiculous...


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## kiwipolish

It is a very fine line between con-artist and genius. We will know the truth in 10-20 years, maybe 100. Although I do not like what Maximianno Cobra does, I remain open. And what if his theory proved to be true? Would you still like to listen to Beethoven at the tempi we are used to?

Beethoven's 5th symphony lasts 31 minutes under Karajan, 50 minutes under Celibidache and 77 minutes under Maximianno Cobra. Hmmmm...


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## purple99

David C Coleman said:


> Yeah, but the guy is just trying to make a fast buck by trying to con the public into think ing that he has a found a "new" way of expressing and performing classical music.


You may be right but how do you know he's not genuine? Haven't people on this thread claimed or implied the opposite - that he can only do what he's done because he has private wealth to pay orchestras to play v e r y s l o w l y. 



David C Coleman said:


> Have you noticed how members of the musical community have rejected him


I have, but remember the brouhaha in 2001 when Norrington played the Mahler symphonies using violins with gut strings and little vibrato (producing, effectively, new renditions to modern ears). The old fogies practically had coronaries. You'd think the world had ended or, at least, Red Revolution had occurred in the RFH bar. 

I remember Hogwood recording the Mozart symphonies with first and second violins split left to right on stage. Again there were clenched buttocks from the critics. There are countless examples of the 'musical community' getting it spectacularly wrong or trying to stifle new initiatives or failing to see that new methods, however eccentric, are no threat to them. Regardless of Cobra, they can still have a 31 minute romp under Karajan should they choose.


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## Rondo

I seem to recall a very similar discussion in one of the Mahler threads. I awknowledge the fact that there is no real objectivity in music, and I'm sure it is difficult to fully understand how the composer meant their work to be played, with respect to every last detail. However, regardless, there is something that many people should come to expect when listening to a performance of a work by Beethoven, Mahler, Shostakovich, or whoever.

This is my opinion, so you can take it or leave it, but taking these kinds of extreme liberties with music which is so engrained in the classical music culture (or mainstream culture), as Cobra is doing, _cheats_ (for lack of better words) all of the devoted listeners and fans, not to mention the composer. Needless to say, whenever people interpret a well-regarded piece such as Beethoven's 9th with as much elasticity as Cobra, it undermines the eminence of the piece itself.


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## purple99

Rondo said:


> I seem to recall a very similar discussion in one of the Mahler threads. I awknowledge the fact that there is no real objectivity in music, and I'm sure it is difficult to fully understand how the composer meant their work to be played, with respect to every last detail. However, regardless, there is something that many people should come to expect when listening to a performance of a work by Beethoven, Mahler, Shostakovich, or whoever.
> 
> This is my opinion, so you can take it or leave it, but taking these kinds of extreme liberties with music which is so engrained in the classical music culture (or mainstream culture), as Cobra is doing, _cheats_ (for lack of better words) all of the devoted listeners and fans, not to mention the composer. Needless to say, whenever people interpret a well-regarded piece such as Beethoven's 9th with as much elasticity as Cobra, it undermines the eminence of the piece itself.


Beethoven's eminence is strong enough to withstand Cobra. When he was used as soundtrack for 'Clockwork Orange' he withstood that. When Hitler and ministers eulogised him as great German speaking for the soul of the Reich, he survived that too. Beethoven's a tough old bird.



Rondo said:


> Needless to say, whenever people interpret a well-regarded piece such as Beethoven's 9th with as much elasticity as Cobra, it undermines the eminence of the piece itself.


In which case Beethoven isn't worth preserving. But you can play Beethoven on kazoos and it wouldn't undermine his eminence. If this didn't undermine it, nothing will.


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## Rondo

Uhhm...I see your point. 

When I mentioned 'elasticity' I was speaking of 'how' it is played and the interpretation of the music itself, not the context in which it is used or played (and, yes, I would say it is pretty darn resilient in that regard!). Cobra's interpretation just doesn't live up to the reputation of the 9th. As a matter of fact, it seems to ridicule it. 

I'm sure the 9th will continue to "live up" to its reputation after Cobra. Though, I would suddenly cast doubt on that if this kind of thing becomes a trend. Most importantly, I feel sorry for the people who have to live through this as their very first exposure to Beethoven, who, I would think, are few (especially given the possibility that such egregious performances are circulated for critique mostly among people such as us, who have heard it dozens of times already....I would hope :/ ).


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## kiwipolish

*Destructions*



kiwipolish said:


> Although I do not like what Maximianno Cobra does, I remain open. And what if his theory proved to be true?


The memory of Cobra's recordings has been haunting me like a nightmare, so I decided to investigate further.

On 22 December 1808, Beethoven conducted a concert of his own works at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna. According to Wikipedia's article about his 5th Symphony, that concert lasted over *4 hours* (long enough!!!) and included the following works (after each work, I have indicated its average duration at usual today's tempi, and also its duration under Cobra - actual or extrapolated):

the Sixth Symphony (44' / 83')
Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65 (14' / 28'*)
The Gloria movement of the Mass in C Major (10' / 20'*)
the Fourth Piano Concerto (34' / 68'*)
(intermission) 
the Fifth Symphony (31' / 77')
the Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C Major Mass (11' / 22'*)
a solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven (?)
the Choral Fantasy (20' / 40'*)
interval and pauses (45'**)

* extrapolation (since there is no recording of that work under Cobra, AFAIK)
** estimate

total duration of that concert (improvisation excepted): 
- if played at usual today's tempi: 209' (3 hours and 29 minutes)
- if played at Cobra's tempi: 383' (6 hours and 23 minutes)

It is very probable that the interval and pauses actually took more than 45'. Also the improvisation probably took at least 10 minutes.

So, since the concert duration is documented, it seems that Beethoven conducted his works at roughly the usual tempi of today.

Unless Cobra proves that the concert of 22 December 1808 lasted over 6 hours, I do not believe his theory and I can now sleep peacefully without nightmares about his Beethoven interpretations / destructions.


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## Badinerie

I wonder if he braggs that he can play the "Minute waltz" in 1'59?


PS...OMG!


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## Conductor

This is truly disgusting! UGH!!


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## World Violist

...

...

And one wonders if anything worse could happen to the human race... this is your proof...


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## arathornion

um... wow, that was...interesting. I think I need to go cleanse my mind after listening to that.


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## Lang

Well, I quite enjoyed the Ode to Grief.


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## phoenixshade

OW OW OW OW, it hurts!! Please make it stop!

What the HELL is he doing with the tempo around the 4:00 - 4:30 mark of the 1st movement?? It was bad enough up to that point, then suddenly, random acclerandos and ritardandos enter the fray.

And he has the stones to put "Urtext" in his titles? Egad!

I now must cleanse myself with Furtwängler's 1954 Lucerne Festival recording...


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## Misakichi_mx

Wow, that was a disaster, the beginning of the 2nd movement is particularly laughable, how did this guy EVER got to stand in front of an orchestra and attempt to conduct? what part of molto vivace is he NOT getting?? it was really too much to bear...


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## mueske

I don't even recognize the music anymore! It's so slow, that at times I didn't even know which note would come.


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## World Violist

kiwipolish said:


> The memory of Cobra's recordings has been haunting me like a nightmare, so I decided to investigate further.
> 
> On 22 December 1808, Beethoven conducted a concert of his own works at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna. According to Wikipedia's article about his 5th Symphony, that concert lasted over *4 hours* (long enough!!!) and included the following works (after each work, I have indicated its average duration at usual today's tempi, and also its duration under Cobra - actual or extrapolated):
> 
> the Sixth Symphony (44' / 83')
> Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65 (14' / 28'*)
> The Gloria movement of the Mass in C Major (10' / 20'*)
> the Fourth Piano Concerto (34' / 68'*)
> (intermission)
> the Fifth Symphony (31' / 77')
> the Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C Major Mass (11' / 22'*)
> a solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven (?)
> the Choral Fantasy (20' / 40'*)
> interval and pauses (45'**)
> 
> * extrapolation (since there is no recording of that work under Cobra, AFAIK)
> ** estimate
> 
> total duration of that concert (improvisation excepted):
> - if played at usual today's tempi: 209' (3 hours and 29 minutes)
> - if played at Cobra's tempi: 383' (6 hours and 23 minutes)
> 
> It is very probable that the interval and pauses actually took more than 45'. Also the improvisation probably took at least 10 minutes.
> 
> So, since the concert duration is documented, it seems that Beethoven conducted his works at roughly the usual tempi of today.
> 
> Unless Cobra proves that the concert of 22 December 1808 lasted over 6 hours, I do not believe his theory and I can now sleep peacefully without nightmares about his Beethoven interpretations / destructions.


Well, the piano improvisation could have lasted well over an hour... but that still doesn't say much for a concert that should have lasted at least 2 hours less than Cobra has proposed...


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## mario54671

So, I just saw the 9th Symphony 4th movement of Cobra...absolutely TERRIBLE. The Maestoso was actually at a normal tempo at the very very end, and then the Prestissimo, both before and after the Maestoso was played Allegretto! What the hell!!! I was told this guy has performed live and it was actually a success...WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!? Seriously, Beethoven would've beaten the ever living crap out of this guy if he was still alive. I mean, there's a REASON why there's a tempo given, the composer wants it like that, so the work can sound the way he/she wrote it. You don't change that, otherwise you change the music and it's a completely different work.

Edit: So I read this last guy below me and some other post earlier in this huge thread. Ok, one person earlier said "well it's good to hear all the notes". You don't HAVE to butcher the music and slow it down if you want all the notes to be heard! Have you heard of Esa-Pekka Salonen? He actually makes every note heard but still keeps the same tempo. That's done by creating the perfect balance so every note can be heard. Now the guy below me said that even Beethoven stresses this idea that you have to follow what the composer says. Now I'm not sure where he said that, I wouldn't be surprised if he really did say this. This is why I don't like pianists like Glenn Gould. He doesn't change the tempo, although he plays every thing in a Baroque style when it shouldn't be, butchering the music that way because he was obsessed with Bach. I have no idea why people think it's alright to play a piece however you feel like, if you don't follow what the music says, then the music is completely different. Again, there's a reason why a composer writes down a certain tempo, they don't just put it there for no reason, it's there so that when a person plays it, it's done the way they want it, and this is one of the contributing factors to that.


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## Lukecash12

Beethoven himself expressed vehemently that you must respect his guidelines. And the greatest aspiration in playing a piece of music is to bring to light what exactly the composer was thinking. I believe people abhor Cobra's interpretation because he deliberately uses such a cheap effect to try to set himself apart when he should be more focused on the composer's wishes.

I'd much rather listen to Hermann Scherchen any day.

Edit: as an additional thought I should take into account that the best way to bring out a composers music is very subject to ideals and the execution of it. Still, in all reality, there is no way Cobra intended to follow Beethoven's wishes for the piece by conducting in such a way.


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## Artemis

I'm surprised this topic still comes up as it's well past its "sell by date" now. More or less everybody agrees that it's a thoroughly disgraceful interpretation. Unless someone thinks it's great there's hardly any point regurgitating the same message. The last time I bothered to look it seemed that it was almost impossible to buy this CD anywhere, so why on earth people keep returning to this topic amazes me.


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## Lukecash12

You couldn't be more right. I guess it's just fun


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## eorrific

Just found this on similar threads.

Is any of you familiar with the Wii game "Wii music"? It has a conducting game where the player must move his Wii control up and down and "conduct" the orchestra. Here's an example, ironically, the Ode to Joy.




They sound TOO familiar.


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## kv466

Simply unbelievable...I'm all for choosing one's own tempo and get off on a fast moonlight first or a slow rondo alla turca but this is just wrong...thanks for the warning, this was indeed hard to stomach...I'm gonna try and get through the scherzo...don't know if I'll make it!


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## Manxfeeder

eorrific said:


> They sound TOO familiar.


Wow, you're right!


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## Aksel

Seemingly not content with beating Beethoven to death, he has done the same to Mozart! That poor, poor soprano.


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## Manxfeeder

Aksel said:


> Seemingly not content with beating Beethoven to death, he has done the same to Mozart! That poor, poor soprano.


How did he get a singer to agree to that tempo? Well, maybe she got paid by the hour.


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## Wicked_one

Now I wished I never clicked that link... 

Maybe his internal clock is speeding up and in order "to be in sync" with the physical time, he slows stuff down... Damn you, psychedelic drugs!!! This is like watching flies f***... 

Total fail!


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## hicksphoto

I am at the final movement of his, a, er... Maximimiano Cobra's Mozart 25, or attempt at such... what is this guy smoking?... At first I was open to it, but the last movement sounds, well... just weird! ... still not entirely sure... all I can say is... why so ssssllllooowwww?


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## hicksphoto

OK, I meant Maximianno... I read his Tempo thing and I can see where he is going. It's not always set in stone, but it's like anything; If it makes the work unworkable, then, as previously mentioned, it fails. I would say, in my best educated (I am no musicologist, by any stretch) guess, if Wolfy himself were to walk into the room right now, he would probably make a face akin to those someone makes when encountering a bathroom stall recently used by someone who subsists primarily on fast food.


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## Crudblud

I don't get what everyone's problem is with that performance of the 9th. I think it's nice to have a different take on a piece that's been done the same way over and over since its creation.

Of course, with this thread being so old who gives a ****?


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## Itullian

i love it.


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## hicksphoto

*OLD thread*

Yeah, old one, but everything here is old, such as the music. I haven't heard M. Cobra's rendition of the 9th yet, but I will search for it.


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## commanderkeen

Mr. Cobra has written about the reasoning behind this performance. You can read it here: http://www.hodie-world.com/atus.pdf

I still think it's a tragedy that he feels music should be mathematical and metric rather than full of life and meaning.


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## Blake

I think people need to stop harping on this guy already. If that's how he sees music, then let it be. Is this some sort of dictatorship or aren't we striving towards a society with freedom of expression without being sent to the gallows? There's enough artists out there to listen to what attracts you and forget about the rest.


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## Guest

Who cares anyway? The thing never took off, it's not stocked anywhere, there's nothing else quite as bad as this, and there were gasps of despair all round at how horrible it was. It's virtually ancient history now.


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## mstar

How do you get to the videos? - Ah, perhaps nevermind, I'm not sure if I _want_ to anymore....


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## scratchgolf

mstar said:


> How do you get to the videos? - Ah, perhaps nevermind, I'm not sure if I _want_ to anymore....


Don't bother unless you have three hours of your life to throw away. And that's just the first movement.


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## mstar

scratchgolf said:


> Don't bother unless you have three hours of your life to throw away. And that's just the first movement.


WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE NINTH SYMPHONY IS ONE HOUR AND FIFTY-SIX MINUTES LONG?! Taking two hours just to load on Youtube.... 
Ratings were disabled for the video. I am wondering why.... :lol:
If Beethoven were alive now at 250 years, he could probably run faster than this tempo.... 
The first movement is 27 min.s. (Yes, of course, I skipped ahead.)

Apparently he also attempted the Liszt piano sonatas. I think that I would turn into an angry 19-century critic reincarnated if I were to give those a listen....


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## scratchgolf

The only positive takeaway from this debacle (I actually watched the first 2 movements) is the isolation of certain instruments. Almost like watching game film in slow motion. You can get a certain appreciation for how things develop by different moving pieces but wouldn't want it as your preferred version.


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## KenOC

There is (or used to be) a site on the net continuously streaming the 9th Symphony stretched to 24 hours without changing the pitch. Interesting to listen to and try to determine just where in the symphony you are!


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## Cosmos

zzzzzzzzzzzz......hghentlwek ugh what? Oh sorry I FELL ASLEEP


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## Novelette

To laugh or to cry? I think I did a little of both when I first heard snippets of this.

The result of this latest exposure [admittedly, ten seconds was all I could bear] was little better.

Ugh!


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## DaDirkNL

This guy gives a new meaning to presto! Just listened to his Mozart 40th symphony. The slow movement is 25 minutes.


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## DavidA

Aksel said:


> Seemingly not content with beating Beethoven to death, he has done the same to Mozart! That poor, poor soprano.


Makes Klemperer look quite a sprinter!


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## WJM

I've just heard the beggining of Beethoven 5th by Cobra and this is just laughable (1st movement is 16 minutes long). I looked up for more of his recordings and all of them sound like they were made in slow-motion. No matter if he conducts or plays the piano, everything's incredibly slow. I also wonder is why some of his recordings don't even sound like real recordings but more like MIDI or something like that (like Beethoven's 2nd or Mozart's sonatas).


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## Itullian

I think many of the HIP speed demon recordings are just as bad.


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## MrGramophone

This is a joke, right? The worst conductor ever. Right now, I need a good laugh and this provided it.


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## omega

This man thought :
'Well, Celibidache become famous by playing Bruckner with very slow tempi. Why shouldn't I try with Beethoven.'
And the disaster began...


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## omega

Even Celibidache would have been quicker


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## User in F minor

How about this one? 47 minutes for the first movement. "So that flies drop dead in mid-air..."

edit: it looks like you can buy it from the famous classical music distributor CDBaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/MaximiannoCobra15

I'd love to buy that but I think I may have a root canal appointment every day from 8 to 5.

edit 2: the recording database says it was published eight years before it was recorded. It's so slow, it makes time go backward!


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## nightscape

DavidA said:


> Makes Klemperer look quite a sprinter!


Hush, he'll hear you, and you'll give him an interest in trying his hand at the St. Matthew Passion! It'll be like 8 hours long.


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## Danilo

Worst of that i was expecting when i read the thread title.


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## premont

Has anyone of you heard Cobra´s Art of Fugue, (a harpsichord version)?
I heard it two years ago
It still makes me LOL, when I think of it.


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## PavolBrezina

Legend says that Karajan's 9th was measure for timing length of Audio CD. And another legend says that Cobra try to fill BluRay with this single piece...


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## P R V

If you play it at 2x speed on YouTube, it actually begins to sound like real performances of Beethoven's 9!  xDD (which is saying something about the slowness of this slack, incompetent gimmicky 'conductor'). And if you see the comments on the video, there are some declaring it the best performance ever. WTF?!


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## Pugg

P R V said:


> If you play it at 2x speed on YouTube, it actually begins to sound like real performances of Beethoven's 9! xDD (which is saying something about the slowness of this slack, incompetent gimmicky 'conductor'). And if you see the comments on the video, there are some declaring it the best performance ever. WTF?!


Don't hold back, let it all out.


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## Azol

The "Beethoven 9" part of the thread's title is completely redundant.


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## TurnaboutVox

> Classical ℗ 2009 TEMPUS Collection - Maximianno Cobra
> Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor, op. 111 - Vol. 1
> 
> I. Maestoso - Allegro con brio ed appassionato - *14:49*
> 
> II. Arietta: Adagio molto, semplice e cantabile - *33:41*


 9 and 18 minutes seem to be more typical...


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