# Captain Beefheart



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Its time to discuss the greatest rock album of the 20th century:

Trout Mask Replica


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

The trick is to listen in small doses. Frownland alone has more ideas in it than entire rock albums these days.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I think it's a record that works best as a whole, personally.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

Although I agree that it is one of the greatest albums of all time, I think it's hard to call it rock. I think it defies classification and stands alone (or actually with Lick My Decals Off, Baby) as its own genre.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

rrudolph said:


> Although I agree that it is one of the greatest albums of all time, I think it's hard to call it rock. I think it defies classification and stands alone (or actually with Lick My Decals Off, Baby) as its own genre.


I call it rock because it uses electric guitars, bass and drums. That is enough for me to classify it as such.

Frownland has to be my favourite opening track to an album.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Jobis said:


> Its time to discuss the greatest rock album of the 20th century:
> 
> Trout Mask Replica


do you read scaruffi?


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

norman bates said:


> do you read scaruffi?


I know of him, and while I agree with him on a few things (I think he was spot on about the captain), I'm not exactly a big fan of his.


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## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

I've listened to the entire album over 500 times. One of the greatest works of sound ever conceived. If I had to single out one part as my "favorite", it would be "When Big Joan Sets Up", but I agree with Crudblud that it works best as a whole.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree, greatest rock album of the 20th century. Is that new remaster good? Don't forget, Zappa produced.

Favorite songs are _The Blimp, Hair Pie, The Dust Blows Forward, Veteran's Day Poppy, Dachau Blues, When Big Joan Sets Up._


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## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> I agree, greatest rock album of the 20th century. Is that new remaster good? Don't forget, Zappa produced.


It is pretty good. Everything seems clearer and sharper, with more of an "edge" to the sound. However, I can't really recommend the tradeoff between the sound upgrade and the price upgrade that Zappa's mail-order charges.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Is there a better example of 'the emancipation of the dissonance' in popular music to be found anywhere? Once your ears grow accustomed to the sound you barely think of the notes being played as 'atonal' or 'off-key' even when they very much are.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I haven't heard the remaster but I don't see how you could possibly improve on the original; it sounds like it was made in the desert, like it grew out of the dunes, what could be more appropriate?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> The Dust Blows Forward, Veteran's Day Poppy, Dachau Blues, When Big Joan Sets Up.[/I]


those are some of my favorites too, and Frownland too, but my favorite track from the album is probably Moonlight on Vermont. 
Anyway I don't know about the "greatest rock album", even if I think it's a great album for sure, and his musicians are very underrated (the mind bending solo on Bat chain puller is one of my favorites ever, but that's another album)... to Beefheart I prefer one of his biggest inspirations, Robert Pete Williams.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

The most important part to remember is Zappa influence and production of this work.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I disagree. Zappa's influence was minimal. The two men/artists were complete opposites. The most important part is Beefheart's music and his great band.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I beg to differ -well to be more accurate I don't really do the beg thing - just a phrase of speach really


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Zappa even said his involvement was minimal. He talked about it on film in the Beefheart documentary. The Magic Band rehearsed this material in a marine boot camp environment for eight months. Beefheart was in charge of the sessions. Zappa was there for a bit of technical guidance.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

The biographies I have read give a differing story the those commonly held beliefs and statements.

If you believe it was all record straight in a few days - well thats good.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^^
I never said that. But as I said, Zappa is on film attesting to the fact that his involvement was minimal. The recording started out in a house, and it was Beefheart's idea to take things into a studio. Zappa was there for technical expertise, not to influence the musical outcome. He stated that Don had definite ideas on how he wanted everything recorded, even if it wasn't the best way to do it. He was an intuitive artist with a big ego, so he didn't take much of Zappa's advice.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree with starthrower on this, even though I was the one who mentioned Zappa. Since they were childhood friends, Zappa understood Beefheart implicitly. Another producer might have caused great conflict. Zappa probably had to "back off" a bit when dealing with Beefheart. Still, I think Zappa had some influence on the outcome.

I'm confident in my belief that Zappa did all the tape-slicing, editing, and oversaw the engineering and mastering.

In light of this, consider the tune "The Blimp," its constituent elements, and the way it is edited. A distinctive drum-pattern appears behind the excited narration; decidedly Zappa-sounding. The rhythm pattern is 4/4 with a "5" figure tacked on the end; the end of the song has a distinctive cadence as well, very Zappa-esque. I wonder if this part was composed by Zappa, and added-on after the fact. For further verification of this theory, compare this with the material on _You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Volume 5,_ which was recorded in 1968-1969, just before _Trout Mask's _release in 1970.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

That Mothers track on vol 5 sounds like the same music. I think Zappa called it Charles Ives? That's the only similarity I recall to Trout, but I haven't listened to the album in a few years. Although I'm a Beefheart fan, I've spent more time listening to other albums including Spotlight Kid; Clear Spot; Bat Chain Puller, Ice Cream For Crow.

I recently picked up the live Oxford UK 2005 CD w/ John French, Gary Lucas, Denny Walley, and... I forget the bass player's name? Rocket Morton?


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> In light of this, consider the tune "The Blimp," its constituent elements, and the way it is edited. A distinctive drum-pattern appears behind the excited narration; decidedly Zappa-sounding. The rhythm pattern is 4/4 with a "5" figure tacked on the end; the end of the song has a distinctive cadence as well, very Zappa-esque. I wonder if this part was composed by Zappa, and added-on after the fact. For further verification of this theory, compare this with the material on _You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Volume 5,_ which was recorded in 1968-1969, just before _Trout Mask's _release in 1970.


I have read (wish I could remember where) that the instrumental part of the Blimp actually IS played by the Mothers of Invention. The exact same riff appears on the Rykodisc version of Weasels Ripped My Flesh with a sax solo over top of it.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

I should have Googled before posting:

This is explained in the liner notes from YCDTOSA vol 5: "Some people might recognize the "CHARLES IVES" vamp section as the background to "THE BLIMP" on Beefheart's TROUT MASK REPLICA album. When it was included there, the recording was done in a unique manner --- I was at Whitney Recorders in Glendale working on some M.O.I. material and a call came from Beefheart, excited about his new lyrics. Antenna Jimmy Semens was ordered to recite them to me over the phone. I recorded his recitation and superimposed it on the vamp. This strange sandwich was eventually used on the album."


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm not trying to go against the grain with this post, because I have all of Don Van Vliet's albums, but Trout Mask Replica is probably my least favorite. 

Safe As Milk & Strictly Personal are still my favorites, but even The Spotlight Kid, Mirror Man, Clear Spot, Ice Cream For Crow rank up there for me. Trout Mask Replica may be the Avant-Garde bible to some and get all the praise from critics, but he wrote a lot of other great material that never gets any recognition. Even Bluejeans & Moonbeams which everyone seems to critique and call garbage had some fine moments on it. Most people just seem to go immediately to Trout Mask and forget about the rest.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

realdealblues said:


> I'm not trying to go against the grain with this post, because I have all of Don Van Vliet's albums, but Trout Mask Replica is probably my least favorite.
> 
> Safe As Milk & Strictly Personal are still my favorites, but even The Spotlight Kid, Mirror Man, Clear Spot, Ice Cream For Crow rank up there for me. Trout Mask Replica may be the Avant-Garde bible to some and get all the praise from critics, but he wrote a lot of other great material that never gets any recognition. Even Bluejeans & Moonbeams which everyone seems to critique and call garbage had some fine moments on it. Most people just seem to go immediately to Trout Mask and forget about the rest.


I love TMR, but I have to agree that he made a lot of other great music that is unfairly ignored because of it, though I am aware of a "movement" of sorts which holds _Safe as Milk_ as his best record, I disagree but it's nice to see some other music getting a shot too. _Strictly Personal_, _Shiny Beast_ and especially _Doc at the Radar Station_ would be my personal picks in addition to TMR.


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