# Rank The Last 8 Mozart Piano Concertos



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

OK I have not done a thread in ages so here goes

Rank the last 8 Mozart piano concertos - with reasons if you think it is appropriate

here is my list obviously no 1 is the best etc

1. No 20 K466
2 No 23 K488
3 No 24 K491
4 No 25 K503
5 No 21 K467
6 No 22 K482
7 No 26 K537
8 No 27 K595

I am really interested to see if anyone will rank K537 in the top 3

From the responses I will compile a TC overall list when there are enough responses in.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I prefer all from K 449 and also K 271 to 537. I probably prefer 453, 456, 459 to 467 and maybe also to 595 (although I like the latter and it was also the first mozart PC I ever heard consciously, in the old Vox? recording with Brendel) and some others, so a list of 8 favorite Mozart PC would almost certainly include a few besides the last 8.

K 491 c minor
K 482 E flat major
K 488 A major
K 466 d minor
K 503 C major
K 595 Bb major
K 467 C major
K 537 D major


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Kreisler jr said:


> I prefer all from K 449 and also K 271 to 537. I probably prefer 453, 456, 459 to 467 and maybe also to 595 (although I like the latter and it was also the first mozart PC I ever heard consciously, in the old Vox? recording with Brendel) and some others, so a list of 8 favorite Mozart PC would almost certainly include a few besides the last 8.
> 
> K 491 c minor
> K 482 E flat major
> ...


I acknowledge that some of the great concertos prior to k466 are greats and favourites - but this thread is specifically about the last 8. Thanks though for your list. I note you placed k537 last of the 8.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Is there anything wrong with no. 26? I enjoy it as much as the others. No composer makes me as happy as Mozart does. <3 <3 ...oh, I don't rank...


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Usually I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of personal dignity to rank music. This time, I can't. It's an 8-way tie. I don't even think I can say which one is my least favorite... maybe K 503 which sounds the most generic IMO? But even then, it's still perfectly composed, and the last movement is just brilliant.

IMO Mozart's PCs are what solidify him as the GOAT. Not quite my favorite perhaps (top 3), but the greatest.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Is there anything wrong with no. 26? I enjoy it as much as the others. No composer makes me as happy as Mozart does. <3 <3 ...oh, I don't rank...


I love #26. That slow movement ... Divine.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

1 No 20 K466
2 No 23 K488
3 No 24 K491
4 No 25 K503
5 No 21 K467
6 No 27 K595
7 No 22 K482
8 No 26 K537

They are all wonderful, remarkable actually. I am amazed that anyone could write so many superior works in a single genre (similar to Beethoven's symphonies). Number 20 stands apart for me. I do consider it my favorite piano concerto. Probably 22 and 26 are also set apart from the other ones. Some of his earlier concertos I would prefer to 22 and 26 but not the others.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

1. No 24 K491
2. No 22 K482
3. No 20 K466
4. No 23 K488
5. No 21 K467
6. No 25 K503
7. No 27 K595
8. No 26 K537

With that out of the way, I do want to emphasize that no. 17 is my favorite. No. 9 would also be in my top eight.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Usually I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of personal dignity to rank music. This time, I can't. It's an 8-way tie. I don't even think I can say which one is my least favorite... maybe K 503 which sounds the most generic IMO? But even then, it's still perfectly composed, and the last movement is just brilliant.
> 
> IMO Mozart's PCs are what solidify him as the GOAT. Not quite my favorite perhaps (top 3), but the greatest.


how can you say K503 is the most generic? Its such an unusual unique kind of work. K537, it seems to be - sound to me like Mozart using his stock tricks to pen a pleasing work.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

1. No 20 K466
2. No 23 K488
3. No 27 K595
4. No 24 K491
5. No 21 K467
6. No 26 K537
7. No 25 K503
8. No 22 K482


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Today:

1. No. 24 K491
2. No. 25 K503
3. No. 21 K467
4. No. 20 K466
5. No. 27 K595
6. No. 23 K488
7. No. 26 K537
8. No. 22 K482


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

1 No. 23 K488
After that I can’t decide


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

PlaySalieri said:


> how can you say K503 is the most generic? Its such an unusual unique kind of work. K537, it seems to be - sound to me like Mozart using his stock tricks to pen a pleasing work.


The first movement sounds like typical _galant_-style music; the motifs are very generic-sounding even though, granted, Mozart's treatment of them is not. The second movement sounds like fragments from other Mozart andantes stitched together. The third movement is my favorite, but not so remarkable as some of the other finales. Again, nothing wrong with the piece from a theoretical lens, but all I find this to be the least memorable of the eight. I think K. 467 is somewhat comparable in character but more interesting & invigorating.

But we are arguing minutiae. Mozart's piano concertos are probably my favorite cycle of any works from any composer, and each of these 8 works is a brilliant and unique creation I will never get tired of.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

No. 20 in D minor, K. 466 
 No. 23 in A major, K. 488 
 No. 27 in B-flat major, K. 595
 No. 22 in E-flat major, K. 482 
 No. 21 in C major, K. 467
 No. 24 in C minor, K. 491 
 No. 26 in D major, K. 537 
 No. 25 in C major, K. 503

On any given day #20, #23, and #27 might shuffle their order, but they are undoubtedly my favorites. I think I can say that I flat out dislike #25. I've heard it live twice, tried several recordings, and it always eludes me.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Usually I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of personal dignity to rank music.


Out of curiosity, how much do you have left? I mean, because I lost mine and I'm wondering if I can borrow some...


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

vtpoet said:


> Out of curiosity, how much do you have left? I mean, because I lost mine and I'm wondering if I can borrow some...


Not enough to give away, but not nothing at all. I am pretty upset with my parents (mostly my mom); they weren't supportive of me through the toughest time in my life, and now they won't invite me over to see them for the holidays before I move across the country (needless to say they won't help with moving either, physically or financially). I haven't done anything of course; everything is just a matter of money and convenience for them. No holidays, no vacations, no family visits. Yet they wanna buy a fancy retirement home, so they have the means. It's a lack of emotional care and love. I havent been able to have a normal conversation with my mom in years; it's all about my status and really of course hers. They don't acknowledge the importance of family despite my insistence that I've wanted to see them and my brother for months. They think that the only responsibilities of parents are to provide financial assistance. Well now that I'm making $150k a year, I will not need to rely on their (often manipulative) financial support anymore. I thought that would at least make my mom happy, but she wasn't encouraging at all. Well I don't need to make her happy; I tried my best but she would not budge, and I have found other people in my life who are much more caring. I am half tempted to pretend to be a sovereign citizen in front of the whole family at my uncle's 60th birthday party (which my parents say they'll attend, but almost certainly won't) to embarrass her.

Edit: my dad's a lot better, and I actually find myself having good conversations with him about things I enjoy, like music.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Not enough to give away, but not nothing at all. I am pretty upset with my parents (mostly my mom); they weren't supportive of me through the toughest time in my life, and now they won't invite me over to see them for the holidays before I move across the country (needless to say they won't help with moving either, physically or financially)....


Sounds like a Steinbeck Novel: _East of Eden_. If you haven't read that... might speak to you. The mother is cruel and cold.

That said, I'm glad you're financially sound. That kind of stability is important when contending with a family's emotional strife. The AA's Big Book was actually a big help to me when managing my own family. Taught me how to let go of other family members' baggage and manipulation.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I do believe she loves me and tries to be a good Mom, so I don't fault her. I don't think she intends to be callous or abusive (though maybe a bit manipulative), and I may have exaggerated a bit in that post. I could have far, far worse parents. But I'm glad to be able to keep my distance; having my finances sorted out definitely helps.

I have not read _East of Eden_. I only know _Of Nice and Men_ and _Grapes of Wrath_. I'll look into it; thanks. Books usually help deal with personal trauma.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

PlaySalieri said:


> OK I have not done a thread in ages so here goes
> 
> Rank the last 8 Mozart piano concertos - with reasons if you think it is appropriate
> 
> ...


While I agree with BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist that it is an eight-way tie, if I had to rank them, it would be:

1. 27
2. 23
3. 24
4. 25
5. 26
6. 20
7. 22
8. 21

If I could include no. 19, it would move into 6th place.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

1. No 20 K466
2. No 24 K491
3. No 27 K595
4. No 22 K482
5. No 21 K467
6. No 25 K503
7. No 23 K488
8. No 26 K537

If this wasn't just about the last eight, No. 17 would be sixth or seventh.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

1) 23
2) 27
3) 25
4) 21
5) 20
6) 22
7) 26
8) 24


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

1. No.24
2. No.25
3. No.27
4. No.21
5. No.26
6. No.22
7. No.23
8. No.20

Otherwise No.19 would be the 3rd.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

ORigel said:


> If this wasn't just about the last eight, No. 17 would be sixth or seventh.


I agree with you on No. 17, but would include it among the top few in my list.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> The first movement sounds like typical _galant_-style music; the motifs are very generic-sounding even though, granted, Mozart's treatment of them is not. The second movement sounds like fragments from other Mozart andantes stitched together. The third movement is my favorite, but not so remarkable as some of the other finales. Again, nothing wrong with the piece from a theoretical lens, but all I find this to be the least memorable of the eight. I think K. 467 is somewhat comparable in character but more interesting & invigorating.
> 
> *But we are arguing minutiae.* Mozart's piano concertos are probably my favorite cycle of any works from any composer, and each of these 8 works is a brilliant and unique creation I will never get tired of.


I don't know - I think generic is the wrong word. I first heard K503 probably last among the great piano concertos when I thought I heard heard them all. It was in a way like the first time I heard Clemenza Di Tito - thinking I had heard all the great Mozart operas and then finding there is 1 more. Brilliant and refreshingly different from all the others. It's probably going to finish higher in the rankings than your assessment of it would indicate it deserves. But then again - K595 will probably finish higher than my personal rating of it. Had Mozart not composed K537 and K595 I think K503 would have been a fitting one to go out on. Im glad he did compose the last two of course.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I have a book called Mozart and his Piano Concertos by Cuthbert Girdlestone. The author claims the quality of the K. 537 and 595 to be lower than that of the previous 12 concertos. So you're not alone in your assessment, but I don't understand the claim.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I have a book called Mozart and his Piano Concertos by Cuthbert Girdlestone. The author claims the quality of the K. 537 and 595 to be lower than that of the previous 12 concertos. So you're not alone in your assessment, but I don't understand the claim.


Alfred Einstein considers K537 and K595 to be what he calls - minor works - which seems to be going too far - the adagio for glass harmonica is a minor work - but I do agree with Girdlestone's assessment. 
It will be interesting so see where they finish - I note that a lot of people are putting K537 last or 7th.
The claim is probably based on the perceived level of invention and overall quality compared with the the other works.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

They are all equally great.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

PlaySalieri said:


> Alfred Einstein considers K537 and K595 to be what he calls - minor works - which seems to be going too far - the adagio for glass harmonica is a minor work - but I do agree with Girdlestone's assessment.
> It will be interesting so see where they finish - I note that a lot of people are putting K537 last or 7th.
> The claim is probably based on the perceived level of invention and overall quality compared with the the other works.


K595 (no. 27) is my favorite of all Mozart's piano concertos. And I've listened to all of them quite a lot. I think it is superior in invention and quality compared with the other works, though K488 (no. 23) comes close. I do agree that no. 26 is my least favorite of the final five, which imo differ in scope and conception from 19-22. So much for the opinions of "experts".

Edit: I have to concede that my love for concertos 19 and 27 is more than a little influenced by the superb recording of the pair by Clara Haskil with Ferenc Fricsay and the Bavarian State Orchestra on DG. Unfortunately the 1996 CD transfer is poor, unusually so for that usually excellent series of reissues.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

My personal favorite is #17 but it isn't one of the last eight...so...

1 No 24 K491
2 No 21 K467
3 No 20 K466
4 No 25 K503
5 No 22 K482
6 No 23 K488
7 No 26 K537
8 No 27 K595


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

1. No.27
2. No.25
3. No.20
4. No.21
5. No.26
6. No.22
7. No.23
8. No.24
And No 17 and 9 as bonus


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

1. No. 24 K491
2. No. 20 K466
3. No. 23 K488
4. No. 22 K482
5. No. 21 K467
6. No. 27 K595
7. No. 25 K503
8. No. 26 K537


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Average rank so far:

No. 20, K. 466 - 3.714
No. 24, K. 491 - 3.714
No. 23, K. 488 - 3.857
No. 27, K. 595 - 4.429
No. 25, K. 503 - 4.436
No. 21, K. 467 - 4.5
No. 22, K. 482 - 5.429
No. 26, K. 537 - 6.857


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Average rank so far:
> 
> No. 20, K. 466 - 3.714
> No. 24, K. 491 - 3.714
> ...


Thanks I appreciate you doing the math for me!


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

So little love for K503? To me that's Mozart's most rich, monumental, and innovative (woodwinds!) piano concerto.
With K491 not far behind, the polar opposite of the bright and cheerful K503, intensely dark and tragic.
They're a great pair, C minor and major - interesting how many of Mozart's masterpieces come in minor/major pairs: the 2 last symphonies, the K466 and 467 concertos, the g minor and C major String Quintets, the two piano quartets etc.

1. No 25 K503
2. No 24 K491
3. No 22 K482 (perhaps the most underrated of the last 8)
4. No 20 K466 (the other minor concerto, and it's a completely different minor than K491)
5. No 23 K488 (the most intimate one)
6. No 27 K595 (late Mozart, more introspective than the rest)
7. No 21 K467 (still a great piece but compared to the others it's overrated and -played)
8. No 26 K537 (the only one that could be considered mediocre/bad Mozart)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

PlaySalieri said:


> Alfred Einstein considers K537 and K595 to be what he calls - minor works - which seems to be going too far...


I agree that this is going too far. 
But there seems a plausible trajectory of Mozart's mature piano concerti beginning with the three chamber concerti K 413-15. K 449 is already a step up despite still possible in chamber version without winds. 450-456 alle make great use of the woodwinds, increase both in scale and expression. K 459 is on the borderline toward a bunch of more "symphonic" concerti of 1785-86 K 466 ff., although the popular K 488 is toned down in scale a bit. This series concludes with K 503 which is an odd piece because of the "neutral", even trite material, but retains the large proportions and "massive" symphonic sound. Then there is a gap of several years and the last two concerti seem outside this trajectory. K 537 was for the coronation in Frankfurt, presumeably in a style Mozart expected to be popular with an audience he was not so familiar with and K 595 was apparently already began in 1788 and finished early 1791 for Mozart's last? appareance as a pianist. Why this one is on a more intimate scale, is anyone's guess.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

RobertJTh said:


> *So little love for K503? T*o me that's Mozart's most rich, monumental, and innovative (woodwinds!) piano concerto.
> With K491 not far behind, the polar opposite of the bright and cheerful K503, intensely dark and tragic.
> They're a great pair, C minor and major - interesting how many of Mozart's masterpieces come in minor/major pairs: the 2 last symphonies, the K466 and 467 concertos, the g minor and C major String Quintets, the two piano quartets etc.
> 
> ...


Well - baffles me too. Eric Blom I think called it Mozart's eroica. Though it is standing at no 5 - your ranking will push it to no 4 probably. K467 is played a lot probably because of the dreamy mvt no 2 though I think the 1st mvt stands out - 3 minutes of amazing music even before the piano enters and bear in mind some piano concerto mvts in those days were only 3-4 min.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have mostly rather conservative, mainstream tastes, but I never cared much for the "Elvira Madigan" movement, although I like the outer movements of the K 467 a lot. It's a bit better with flowing interpretations like Zacharias or Vladar, but is never going to be such a favorite as the slow movements of K 453 or 456 or many others.

I used to find the K 503 rather difficult to appreciate, partly because my first recording was Gulda/Abbado which is the worst of the 4 they did together (K 467 is very good but for a too slow andante, K 595 also very good, and K 466 not too bad, despite a bit slow in the first movement) and has a rather glacial first movement. I am not really sure I heard any I completely like, Kocsis is hampered by not quite first rate accompaniment and overall too many seem to never get into gear in the first movement. So I probably ranked it a little too high above as I am still a bit conflicted.

I also agree that K 482 is underappreciated. Probably partly because its neighbors are just the most popular EVER, maybe also because the great early E flat concerto or the sinfonia concertante. Even more than the c minor, this is the piano concerto halfway to a great wind serenade and that's what I love about it.

Overall, I find the 6 from 449 to 459 a bit underrated compared to the following 6 (which is understandable because of the more symphonic style of the latter but still unjustified). Only K 453 (which is also my favorite) seems really appreciated, maybe 459, but the other 4 not enough.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

How about thread choosing ten favorites from all of Mozart's Piano Concertos for single piano and orchestra?


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I have mostly rather conservative, mainstream tastes, but I never cared much for the "Elvira Madigan" movement, although I like the outer movements of the K 467 a lot. It's a bit better with flowing interpretations like Zacharias or Vladar, but is never going to be such a favorite as the slow movements of K 453 or 456 or many others.
> 
> I used to find the K 503 rather difficult to appreciate, partly because my first recording was Gulda/Abbado which is the worst of the 4 they did together (K 467 is very good but for a too slow andante, K 595 also very good, and K 466 not too bad, despite a bit slow in the first movement) and has a rather glacial first movement. I am not really sure I heard any I completely like, Kocsis is hampered by not quite first rate accompaniment and overall too many seem to never get into gear in the first movement. So I probably ranked it a little too high above as I am still a bit conflicted.
> 
> ...


I think it isn't fair to rank early, middle and late Mozart piano concertos together, even if we're only discussing the last 8, or 9, or 14, as his style evolved so markedly, increasing in scope, ambition and complexity. Purely as a matter of personal taste, there is no reason one might not prefer earlier Mozart to later in a lot of instances, though that tends not to be my preference. Great recordings can influence one's tastes as well.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

RobertJTh said:


> So little love for K503? To me that's Mozart's most rich, monumental, and innovative (woodwinds!) piano concerto.
> With K491 not far behind, the polar opposite of the bright and cheerful K503, intensely dark and tragic.
> They're a great pair, C minor and major - interesting how many of Mozart's masterpieces come in minor/major pairs: the 2 last symphonies, the K466 and 467 concertos, the g minor and C major String Quintets, the two piano quartets etc.
> 
> ...


I don't think I would characterize TC's view of K503 as "so little love." In the TC Top Recommended Piano Concertos the order of Mozart's concertos is:

1 No 20 K466
2 No 23 K488
3 No 21 K467
4 No 27 K595
5 No 24 K491
6 No 25 K503

but all 6 were in the top 22 piano concertos of all time. Here No 25 K503 comes in 5th, but many people basically said all of these were phenomenal concertos. I placed 25 4th, but after 20, the next 5 were all very close. You may be surprised that 4 or 5 Mozart concertos were placed above K503, but there's certainly enormous love for it.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Yeah, I’d say we’re showing quite a bit of respect for 503.

466, 488, and 491 are undoubtedly his most widely popular piano concertos, with 467 and 595 not far behind.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Just one person's opinion - Mozart's piano concertos went downhill after no. 24.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> How about thread choosing ten favorites from all of Mozart's Piano Concertos for single piano and orchestra?


My guess is that among the "preemies" Nos. 17, 9, 19, and 15 would get most mentions and there'd be a dropoff after that. 6 might get some love. Maybe 14 and 18.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Bulldog said:


> Just one person's opinion - Mozart's piano concertos went downhill after no. 24.


I agree in the sense that I view 20, 23, and 24 as my favorites so 25 - 27 are "lesser" ones. Having said that, I view 25 and 27 as magnificent works greater than many other great composer concertos. To say that his piano concertos went downhill after 24 is not much of a negative comment. I'm not sure if you mean that 25-27 are vastly lower in quality than his earlier ones.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> How about thread choosing ten favorites from all of Mozart's Piano Concertos for single piano and orchestra?


Because it has been done before and rather than people hum and haw over 27 piano concertos and choose their best 8 - I wanted to really focus minds on the last 8 because I think that from k466 onwards Mozart elevated the piano concerto to unsurpassable heights - with respect to Beethoven Rachmaninov and a few others - even those who do not care for a lot of Mozart music acknowledge the later piano concertos as masterworks so that is the poll. I also wanted to test my hypothesis that of the last 8 concerti - K537 would be last. But more importantly - I was hoping to generate some fruitful discussion on the relative merits, weaknesses and characteristics of the later concertos. Comparing fewer works is probably going to generate a better discussion that more works - maybe.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> I agree in the sense that I view 20, 23, and 24 as my favorites so 25 - 27 are "lesser" ones. Having said that, I view 25 and 27 as magnificent works greater than many other great composer concertos. To say that his piano concertos went downhill after 24 is not much of a negative comment. I'm not sure if you mean that 25-27 are vastly lower in quality than his earlier ones.


No, not vastly lower in quality.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

PlaySalieri said:


> Because it has been done before and rather than people hum and haw over 27 piano concertos and choose their best 8 - I wanted to really focus minds on the last 8 because I think that from k466 onwards Mozart elevated the piano concerto to unsurpassable heights.


I'd beg to differ. There is no clear cut from K 413 through 503 as Mozart continually wrote these concertos for his own use from 1782-86. The two last one are "stragglers", and I think that the K 537 is nothing special at all. Of course, one can draw a few lines, and the more symphonic sound and nature of K 466/67 is a reasonable one. But neither the last two nor K 488 really keep that symphonic scale and one could make a case for K 459 and even 451 being "bigger" than those three. And the symphonic sound and scale is not everything. Many have mentioned K 453 G major as a particular favorite. I agree and don't think Mozart surpassed its slow movement (and my first candidate for a better finale would be K 459, also (barely) before the last 8).


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd beg to differ. There is no clear cut from K 413 through 503 as Mozart continually wrote these concertos for his own use from 1782-86. The two last one are "stragglers", and I think that the K 537 is nothing special at all. Of course, one can draw a few lines, and the more symphonic sound and nature of K 466/67 is a reasonable one. But neither the last two nor K 488 really keep that symphonic scale and one could make a case for K 459 and even 451 being "bigger" than those three. And the symphonic sound and scale is not everything. Many have mentioned K 453 G major as a particular favorite. I agree and don't think Mozart surpassed its slow movement (and my first candidate for a better finale would be K 459, also (barely) before the last 8).


well maybe - I am a huge fan of many of the earlier concertos. K271 would certainly be in my top 8 and of course no 17. But he composed 6 straight monumental concertos k466 to k503 - and before k466 it was very hit and miss though of course they are all wonderful in their way but there are fewer really outstanding examples.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Well, as long as others are touting a few of the pcs under No. 20, I'll give a thumbs up for 9,11,13,15 and 17.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Rank the last eight Mozart PCs? Let's not.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

PlaySalieri said:


> Alfred Einstein considers K537 and K595 to be what he calls - minor works - which seems to be going too far - the adagio for glass harmonica is a minor work - but I do agree with Girdlestone's assessment.
> It will be interesting so see where they finish - I note that a lot of people are putting K537 last or 7th.
> The claim is probably based on the perceived level of invention and overall quality compared with the the other works.


While everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I typically don't worry too much about how others rate or rank music I'm already familiar with, even well-known writers, the idea that anyone could call either of these concertos, but especially K. 595, a "minor work", rankles me. Here is another critic's opinion about K. 595, far more in line with my own, and very well stated:

The Piano Concerto no. 27 in B-flat (the fourth in that key) is the final one of the series. It was composed in January 1791, eleven months before Mozart's death, and is separated from the flashy twenty-sixth concerto by two years chronologically and a millenium spiritually. Indeed, the work cannot be adequately compared with any of the preceding piano concertos: it belongs only with the Ave Venum Corpus, the Requiem, the Clarinet Concerto and Sarastro's two arias in The Magic Flute -- all written in 1791. It has annoyed some listeners by its naive concluding rondo. But in this simplicity lies the whole essence of Mozart. It is the greatest of the piano concertos, the one we could least afford to do without.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

fluteman said:


> While everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I typically don't worry too much about how others rate or rank music I'm already familiar with, even well-known writers, the idea that anyone could call either of these concertos, but especially K. 595, a "minor work", rankles me. Here is another critic's opinion about K. 595, far more in line with my own, and very well stated:
> 
> The Piano Concerto no. 27 in B-flat (the fourth in that key) is the final one of the series. It was composed in January 1791, eleven months before Mozart's death, and is separated from the flashy twenty-sixth concerto by two years chronologically and a millenium spiritually. Indeed, the work cannot be adequately compared with any of the preceding piano concertos: it belongs only with the Ave Venum Corpus, the Requiem, the Clarinet Concerto and Sarastro's two arias in The Magic Flute -- all written in 1791. It has annoyed some listeners by its naive concluding rondo. But in this simplicity lies the whole essence of Mozart. It is the greatest of the piano concertos, the one we could least afford to do without.


I was leafing through Alfred Einstein on the piano concertos and it is odd that on the one hand he calls the last two concerti minor works - on the other hand in his concluding remarks on K595 he says it is a work of the "highest mastery of invention" Here is Einstein's remarks on K537 and K595:
"The two piano concertos that were still to come are minor works and not the product of the primary creative urge that had brought forth the great concertos" (p 326 of my paperback edition 1979) - he also calls K503 a "grandiose conclusion"


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I only learned a few years ago that K 595 was already began (and apparently got pretty far in partial score?) in 1788. 
Formerly I had to a certain extent bought into the idea that Mozart came to a "radiant simplicity" in his last year, or in any case took a step back from the more dramatic and demanding works of ca. 1783-88 (roughly from the quartets dedicated to Haydn through the Jupiter symphony) as evidenced by such pieces as this last piano concerto, the clarinet concerto or The Magic Flute.
Seems rather dubious now although it is not wrong that Mozart reduced the scale and drama in a bunch of important works in the late 500 K numbers compared to the major works from the mid-late 1780s.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I only learned a few years ago that K 595 was already began (and apparently got pretty far in partial score?) in 1788.
> Formerly I had to a certain extent bought into the idea that Mozart came to a "radiant simplicity" in his last year, or in any case took a step back from the more dramatic and demanding works of ca. 1783-88 (roughly from the quartets dedicated to Haydn through the Jupiter symphony) as evidenced by such pieces as this last piano concerto, the clarinet concerto or The Magic Flute.
> Seems rather dubious now although it is not wrong that Mozart reduced the scale and drama in a bunch of important works in the late 500 K numbers compared to the major works from the mid-late 1780s.


So, a "minor work" in the sense of The Magic Flute? Beethoven's string quartet no. 16 (Op. 135)? Or Brahms' Clarinet Quintet (Op. 115)? That is a strange way to use the word "minor".


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't think that K 595 is a minor work and never used that expression. (I do think K 537 is a rather average occasional work not up with Mozart's best.) As I wrote, I took it for a data point for a stylistic change, like the clarinet concerto or maybe already the Prussian quartets as you wrote in the second paragraph of #51, but as I explicitly wrote in what you quoted (but apparently did not read) this seems a bit dubious because it was already mostly? written in 1788.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

crunchy dissonances @4:23, 5:20


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> crunchy dissonances @4:23, 5:20


yes I know - there are some really striking passages in this concerto


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

As far as I'm concerned, only two of Mozart's concertos are minor works: K 466 and K 491.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

--------------------------------------------------------------


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

RobertJTh said:


> So little love for K503? To me that's Mozart's most rich, monumental, and innovative (woodwinds!) piano concerto.
> With K491 not far behind, the polar opposite of the bright and cheerful K503, intensely dark and tragic.
> They're a great pair, C minor and major - interesting how many of Mozart's masterpieces come in minor/major pairs: the 2 last symphonies, the K466 and 467 concertos, the g minor and C major String Quintets, the two piano quartets etc.
> 
> ...


Updated after your post:

1. No. 24, K. 491 - 3.0
2. No. 20, K. 466 - 3.133
3. No. 23, K. 488 - 3.933
4. No. 25, K. 503 - 4.267
5. No. 27, K. 595 - 4.533
6. No. 21, K. 467 - 4.933
7. No. 22, K. 482 - 5.267
8. No. 26, K. 537 - 6.933


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I am unable to rank Mozart piano concertos. 

Just stopping by to say that together with his string quintets, these concertos are amongst the best sounding music I know. Only Mozart somehow seems to be able to avoid the piano’s even tuning clashing against the orchestra.

Listening to Ashkenazy playing the 23rd atm. So beautiful!

I am not the greatest fan of piano concertos in general but Mozart piano concertos I adore.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

1) 20
2) 27
3) 23
4) 21
5) 25
6) 24
7) 22
8) 26


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't think that K 595 is a minor work and never used that expression. (I do think K 537 is a rather average occasional work not up with Mozart's best.) As I wrote, I took it for a data point for a stylistic change, like the clarinet concerto or maybe already the Prussian quartets as you wrote in the second paragraph of #51, but as I explicitly wrote in what you quoted (but apparently did not read) this seems a bit dubious because it was already mostly? written in 1788.


No, I read your entire post, and have no problem or disagreement with it. And I know you didn't use the term "minor work" for anything. I actually understand the point you are making. I was smh'ing at a critic who would call a late career, introspective but profound work by Mozart "minor". And regardless of when he began to write it, I do think Mozart intended no. 27 to contrast with the splashy no. 26, which after all was written for a grand celebratory occasion. Also, I can't help but think of Beethoven's final string quartet, the F major Op. 135, which on superficial examination can seem anti-climactic to what came before it, but which deserves far more than superficial examination.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

#20
#24
#23
#27
#25
#22
#21
#26


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Piano concerto 17 is in my top 5 of Mozart, but not to be considered here. So:

1. 20
2. 24
3. 25
4. 22
5. 27
6. 23
7. 21
8. 26


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## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

1) 20
2) 21
3) 23
4) 27
5) 22
6) 26
7) 24
8) 25


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

I'd rather rank by tiers.
1st: 20, 24, 25
(I find each movement interesting & there's at least one that I really like)

2nd: 26, 22
(I find every movement interesting, maybe except for the first movement of 22, but I really like 22's 2nd movement so that makes up for it)

2nd & a half: 21
(I don't find the 1st movement too interesting)

3rd: 23, 27
(Of these two, only the 1st movement of 23 & the 3rd movement of 27 interest me.)

I don't think any of them are "bad". Just personal preference


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