# Berlioz - Les Troyens



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

I bought tickets to go to see Les Troyens at La Scala, next April.
Strange as it may seem, It will be my very first listening to this opera . 
Actually Berlioz, for some reason, is one of the main composers I have never paid too much attention to.

I will go there "virgin", i.e. without a previous listening, but I would like to prepare myself a bit…
Any suggestion on the key points of the opera will be greatly appreciated :tiphat:

Thanks!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

GioCar said:


> Any suggestion on the key points of the opera will be greatly appreciated


The first fragment, coming from the beginning, that drawn me into the opera upon first listening was duet between Chorèbe and Cassandra with beautiful melody of _Reviens à toi, vierge adoré!_






Another highligh, though very short, is powerful call of Enee telling his men to prepare for departure from Carthage.

This lyrical aria isn't bad either, is it:


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## Berlioznestpasmort (Jan 24, 2014)

You are to be envied - the first time I heard _Les Troyens_, it was "bouleversant," and I think if doctors had the means they would still find it resonating somewhere inside me. A real highlight for me is "Nuit d'ivresse" - Berlioz did not make it esp. easy for his singers!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

You lucky soul!

Listen, listen, listen - just listen to it! Its on 4 CDs, listen a few times (even without the libretto .... and even in any order) and then, once you hear the _idee fixee_ - the themes for different situations, characters, emotions and start to link them together, then have a good listening session with following the libretto through. One of the greatest joys in classical music awaits you and you may get to the stage where you realise that everything that is in this mammoth opera is there for an important reason

Enjoy!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Verdi is my favourite opera composer, but two of my top five favourite operas are not by Verdi. Bellini's *Norma* is one. The other is *Les Troyens*, a score of unending fascination and beauty. Like all great works, it may not be immediately accessible, but it repays re-hearing, over and over again. I'd second Headphone Hermit and recommend that you try to acquaint yourself with the score a little beforehand.

Incidentally, people often go on about its great length, which is why it is often split into two parts, played on consecutive nights, but it is no longer than some of Wagner's operas, and nobody would ever think of splitting them in two.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

GioCar said:


> I bought tickets to go to see Les Troyens at La Scala, next April.
> Strange as it may seem, It will be my very first listening to this opera .
> Actually Berlioz, for some reason, is one of the main composers I have never paid too much attention to.
> 
> ...


Oh, please don't go there as a "virgin" listener! Get either of the Davis CD sets or even better the DVD from 2003 in Paris featuring Susan Graham and a knockout Anna Caterina Antonacci, John Elliot Gardiner, conducting. 
You will enjoy it so much more if you are completely familiar with it!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Berlioz, unlike almost every other major operatic composer, learned to play woodwind, not piano or violin. As such his whole style of composing was different. Also, he studied early music and he composed music that had very novel rhythms compared to other composers. His operas are a bit like staged oratorios, but the music is really wonderful. I've heard Le Troyens is hard to stage well and this is Europe so it might get weird, but you should expect some good artists and wonderful music. Once you recognize Berlioz's style you can pick him out fairly easily from snippets in the future IMHO.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> ... The other is *Les Troyens*, a score of unending fascination and beauty. Like all great works, it may not be immediately accessible, but it repays re-hearing, over and over again. I'd second Headphone Hermit and recommend that you try to acquaint yourself with the score a little beforehand.


I had to listen several times before I 'got' it. Worth persevering.



GioCar said:


> I bought tickets to go to see Les Troyens at La Scala, next April.
> Strange as it may seem, It will be my very first listening to this opera .
> Actually Berlioz, for some reason, is one of the main composers I have never paid too much attention to.
> 
> ...


If it's this one you're in for a treat.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I still don't "get" it.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

sospiro said:


> If it's this one you're in for a treat.


Yes, it is!

Can't wait to see it!


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Itullian said:


> I still don't "get" it.


I guess you love Wagner as I do, so this is worrying me a bit...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

GioCar said:


> I guess you love Wagner as I do, so this is worrying me a bit...


No worries my friend. Many people love it.
I've only listened to it, not seen it.
But that's how I judge a work.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

In my humble opinion it would be crazy to go without at least listening to a decent recording first. I can't think of any opera that doesn't benefit from some prior listening - well, any 'good' opera, anyway (and this is a *great *one).


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

Itullian said:


> No worries my friend. Many people love it.
> I've only listened to it, not seen it.
> But that's how I judge a work.


 Wow - this is the first time I have noticed disagreeing with your view 

(and I even explored _Tell _on the basis of your enthusiasm! Loved it, as well!)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Oreb said:


> Wow - this is the first time I have noticed disagreeing with your view
> 
> (and I even explored _Tell _on the basis of your enthusiasm! Loved it, as well!)


I figured i'd get in trouble on this one.


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## themysticcaveman (Jul 9, 2013)

Don't go there without having listened to it quite thoroughly before you go, it is a long opera and you stand the chance of getting bored, also try read Virgil's the Aeinid, the libretto is modelled on that story, hope this helps


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Aramis said:


> The first fragment, coming from the beginning, that drawn me into the opera upon first listening was duet between Chorèbe and Cassandra with beautiful melody of _Reviens à toi, vierge adoré!_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 .....................


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Itullian said:


> .....................


Yes, sadly, after about 1835 Berlioz became a normal person...


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Dutoit for French finesse & overall grandeur, super Decca recording.
Davis (2x) for the voices, the drama. I like the live LSO digital recording more than the dryish Philips analogue sound

All of them recommended.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> TxllxT: All of them recommended.


Right: hedge your bet on things of monumental importance. Ha. Ha. Ha.

I always do.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

TxllxT said:


> Dutoit for French finesse & overall grandeur, super Decca recording.
> Davis (2x) for the voices, the drama. I like the live LSO digital recording more than the dryish Philips analogue sound
> 
> All of them recommended.


i still go for the earlier Davis recording, if pushed, with the supplement of Baker in the final scenes.

I remember having this set on LP when these box sets were luxury acquisitions. Two (yes two) beautifully produced booklets, one containing the libretto in French, English and German and one with notes and essays about the opera and photographs and biographies of the singers. Ah, those were the days!


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## Romantiker (Feb 23, 2014)

I recently digitalized my old LPs of the Sir Colin Davis first complete recording of _Les Troyens_. One thing that struck me when hearing my new version is how easy it is to understand what's being sung by a non-native speaker of French like me. Berlioz did an amazing job of uniting his music with his words. I was struck by how much I understood and how that engrossed me in the experience. It inspired me to read some of Berlioz' prose. I cannot recommend his _Memoirs_ too highly. There you can read the back story of his unsuccessful struggle to get a complete production of _Les Troyens_ at the Paris Opera. He is a brilliant, candid mirror of his times. His wit and brilliant story telling will make you laugh out loud. Just thinking about this makes me want to change my avatar to a pic of him.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Berlioz was definately someone you could make a movie on.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Berlioz was definately someone you could make a movie on.


I'd make a movie on film ... or use digital media ... or make it about someone :devil: .... but I imagine that a resident of Southern California would know better than I 

Out of interest, who would you suggest for Hector (and who for Harriet)?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> I'd make a movie on film ... or use digital media ... or make it about someone :devil: .... but I imagine that a resident of Southern California would know better than I
> 
> Out of interest, who would you suggest for Hector (and who for Harriet)?


Gary Oldman and Haley Atwell.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Greatest opera masterpiece! 4 hours of the most beautiful music...a tiny taste of heaven.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Itullian said:


> I still don't "get" it.


Heh, I can sympathize. I think much of the music is gorgeous, but Berlioz wasn't a great dramaturge. The dramatic pull of _Les Troyens_ has always struck me as static and a bit awkward in spots.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> Heh, I can sympathize. I think much of the music is gorgeous, but Berlioz wasn't a great dramaturge. The dramatic pull of _Les Troyens_ has always struck me as static and a bit awkward in spots.


The storyline of Les Troyens is vastly superior to that of most operas. One of the _rare_ instances where I can follow along with the synopsis, take a peek at the translated libretto occasionally, and have a good time.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Ukko said:


> The storyline of Les Troyens is vastly superior to that of most operas. One of the _rare_ instances where I can follow along with the synopsis, take a peek at the translated libretto occasionally, and have a good time.


Hmm, I have to disagree with your assessment. Yes, the story is incredibly streamlined and easy to grasp, but that in itself doesn't make it very captivating dramatically. The overall structure is decent enough (juxtaposing Cassandra and Troy with Dido and Carthage), and the overriding theme of destiny is quite obvious (maybe too obvious), but for me several of the individual acts lack any significant _momentum_ or dramatic _climax_. Compare Acts IV and V to something like Act I of _Die Walküre_ for example. Wagner is able to masterfully draw all of the dramatic constituents together, is able to impart so much relevant information to the audience and so subtlety and effectively paints the personalities of his characters that we immediately identify with them, then fashions it all into a convincing dramatic framework that builds to an electrifying climax where Siegmund draws the sword from the tree. Comparitavely, I just think Berlioz is somewhat clumsy with his handling of the different dramatic elements. In Act IV you have an hour of lovely music, but the story line largely comes to a dead stop and the only pertinent information we learn is that Dido and Aeneas are in love and that Narbal is a little uneasy about it. Not the most exciting or interesting dramatically. Then in Act V, Aeneas' departure about half-way through proves anticlimactic, his about-face in turning away from Dido and her love is rather schematic. And so on and so forth. I'm not trying to disparage the work or anything, there is a lot that I admire about it. I still stand by my impression that the drama is often stagnant, and that Berlioz wasn't a wholly effective dramatist. But to each their own. I'm glad you like it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

LOL! I can't compare Wagner's operas favorably with anything, but _the worm_ and I are 'glad you like it'.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Gary Oldman and Haley Atwell.


Ha ha ha - what a sense of humour you have! I'd pick a beautiful woman and a handsome man, myself - I can't really imagine staying in Carthage or throwing myself on a funeral pile for either of these


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

GioCar said:


> I bought tickets to go to see Les Troyens at La Scala, next April.
> Strange as it may seem, It will be my very first listening to this opera .
> Actually Berlioz, for some reason, is one of the main composers I have never paid too much attention to.
> 
> ...


Well, last night I made it!

Possibly I am going to spend my Sunday rethinking of my experience...

In spite of all good advices from my TC friends (thanks to you all!), I went there without having a previous full listening , just some reading... 
Well, it worked! It raised my interest to go further in the discovery of this masterpiece

I went there having Wagner in my mind, but now I think that there cannot be any significant comparison between the two.
Berlioz's opera is, aesthetically speaking, so different from any Wagner's opera...
Now, being myself much more acquainted with Wagner, I still do prefer any of his great operas if compared to Les Troyens, but I am very glad to add it to my "explore more" list. 
IMO it's possible to do that by just listening to it. I mean, I didn't find that staging Les Troyens is really necessary to appreciate it (although the McVicar/Pappano production is gorgeous!).
A good recording, where all nuances and perspectives of Berlioz's music are well defined, should be enough.


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