# Worst compositions by the major composers



## Couchie

It dawned on my this obvious question has not actually ever been asked yet on this forum (to my few years of knowledge).

Which are the "flops", the what-were-they-thinking, the ones you'd rather imagine not exist by your favorites of the greaties?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Concert overtures by Wagner


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## Crudblud

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Concert overtures by Wagner


Like the Faust overture? It's never been one of my favourite Wagner pieces, but there's no way it's as bad as the cardboard-bland American centennial music he wrote.

I can think of plenty of composers I like who have pieces I don't get (e.g.: Bruckner's 6th, Mahler's 5th, Ravel's Prix de Rome cantatas) but I don't consider them embarrassing at all.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Crudblud said:


> Like the Faust overture? It's never been one of my favourite Wagner pieces, but there's no way it's as bad as the *cardboard-bland American centennial music he wrote.*
> 
> I can think of plenty of composers I like who have pieces I don't get (e.g.: Bruckner's 6th, Mahler's 5th, Ravel's Prix de Rome cantatas) but I don't consider them embarrassing at all.


That too! I forgot about that!


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## Garlic

Shostakovich Jazz Suites
Chopin Piano Concertos
Beethoven's "Wellington's Victory" and "The Glorious Moment"
Schubert operas
Wagner piano sonatas


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## Crudblud

Garlic said:


> Shostakovich Jazz Suites


Amusingly, these are the only Shostakovich pieces I have heard that I've enjoyed.


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## Weston

Garlic said:


> Beethoven's "Wellington's Victory" . . .


This, without hesitation is the biggest flop in my estimation.

Others:

J. S. Bach - Verschiedene Canones (14), BWV 1087. 
These are more mathematical puzzles than listenable music, set to repeat into infinity. They would certainly have been "For the lesser glory of God."

Beethoven - "Eroica Variations," Op. 35 
This is a personal flop. I just don't like them, especially the variation with the annoying ostinato.

Beethoven - Rage Over a Lost Penny
More like rage over an annoying melody that gets stuck in your head.

Aaron Copland - El Salon Mexico 
The Red Pony Suite 
Three Latin American Sketches 
These are terribly disappointing and dull to my ears.

Herbert Howells - The B's Suite, Op. 13 
I love Herbert Howells' music, but this piece strikes me as frightfully boring.

Mendelssohn - Perptuum mobile in C, Op. 119 
Sends me groping for the skip button.

Rachmaninov - The Bells.
Unlistenable to me.


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## Guest

Garlic said:


> Chopin Piano Concertos




Same to Mahler 5, especially if you get other Mahler.


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## Mahlerian

There can be only one:





Ladies and gentlemen, the worst piece of music ever penned by a first-tier composer!


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## Weston

^This does seem to modulate at weird times and have sabre rattling brass blasts for no apparent reason and doesn't flow very well, but other than that if we didn't know it was supposed to be about Japan would it be so bad?


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## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> ^This does seem to modulate at weird times and have sabre rattling brass blasts for no apparent reason and doesn't flow very well, but other than that if we didn't know it was supposed to be about Japan would it be so bad?


I think so. The piece is quick hackwork done to fulfill a commission, and to me it sounds that way through and through. The surest sign in my mind that music is bad is that it sounds like a parody of good music in the same style. To my ears, that piece sounds like a parody of Strauss's worst characteristics (and I'm not really a big Straussian, as some around here probably know).


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## Cosmos

Liszt Grosse Konzertsolo. It has literally every Lisztian cliche you could ask for






Also, Chopin's piano concertos and Beethoven's Wellington's Victory have already been mentioned.

I'd also like to add Wagner's two symphonies that no one ever preforms for a reason


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## KenOC

I'd be a bit careful about criticizing Wellington's Victory. The last time Gottfried Weber did that, he earned Ludwig's greatest one-liner: "Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!" Google Translate will handle that, I won't (even with gloves). :lol:


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## maestro57

KenOC said:


> I'd be a bit careful about criticizing Wellington's Victory. The last time Gottfried Weber did that, he earned Ludwig's greatest one-liner: "Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!" Google Translate will handle that, I won't (even with gloves). :lol:


But it still isn't great. I have the rendition with all the bells and whistles, etc. ..... Nein... aber, ich liebe doch Beethoven. Immer.


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## Ramako

This one takes the biscuit for me.


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## nightscape

KenOC said:


> I'd be a bit careful about criticizing Wellington's Victory. The last time Gottfried Weber did that, he earned Ludwig's greatest one-liner: "Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!" Google Translate will handle that, I won't (even with gloves). :lol:


It was premiered along with his Symphony No. 7. Hey, you can't win them all.


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## violadude

I don't know many horrible compositions by top tier composers, but I must say, I really don't like Dvorak's 3rd string quartet only for the fact that it is WAY too long for what it is.


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## KenOC

nightscape said:


> It was premiered along with his Symphony No. 7. Hey, you can't win them all.


The premiere concert was reviewed in the AMZ, which goes on quite a bit about the Wellington's great popular success. But then it says: "We hardly need to add that laymen were completely amazed at this work and did not know what had happened to them, while on the other hand connoisseurs preferred the preceding symphony as a more noble work of art by far."


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## CypressWillow

I like Ravel, but the "Bolero"?


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## Garlic

^ A great piece of orchestration if nothing else.

Not sure if he's considered a major figure here, but Cornelius Cardew's late "worker's power" anthems are truly bizarre and hold a strange fascination for me that is totally disproportionate to their quality. This is after he abandoned serialism, aleatoric music and free improvisation for being too elitist, having spent most of his career in these areas. He was totally sincere - there is no trace of irony here.


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## spradlig

This isn't an entire composition, but I vote for the last movement of Beethoven's 3d symphony ("Eroica"). After the first three, great, movements, it is a huge letdown. The theme Beethoven built the entire movement from is very weak. I find it less interesting than the Jeopardy theme song. One or two of the variations are compelling, but even Beethoven could not produce good music from such bad ingredients. 

I cannot comprehend why Beethoven wrote several other pieces based on this same theme!

This is just my opinion. No flames please. I love much of Beethoven's music.


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## spradlig

Regarding Beethoven's "Eroica Variations", I already bashed the last movement of his 3d symphony because I think the main theme is very weak and not even Beethoven can redeem it.


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## Ondine

I can't tell about a 'worst' composition. But I can tell being in the 'worst' moment for listening at.


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## ahammel

Garlic said:


> [Regarding Bolero]^ A great piece of orchestration *and* nothing else.


FTFY 



Garlic said:


> Not sure if he's considered a major figure here, but Cornelius Cardew's late "worker's power" anthems are truly bizarre and hold a strange fascination for me that is totally disproportionate to their quality. This is after he abandoned serialism, aleatoric music and free improvisation for being too elitist, having spent most of his career in these areas. He was totally sincere - there is no trace of irony here.


That...is absolutely bizarre. It sounds like the theme song to Billy Bragg's Saturday morning children's show if he had subtlety surgically removed.


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## Celloissimo

About Boléro, it's a great experiment in orchestration and it should just be taken for what it is. Of course, against Ravel's other works (like the masterpiece the Piano Trio in A Minor....eargasms ) it doesn't add up, but it's interesting and also fun to perform.


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## Yardrax

The hate expressed by a couple of posters towards the Eroica Variations/Symphony 3 mvt. 4 is a bit quizzical to me, I love those pieces!


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## Celloissimo

I personally find Beethoven's entire 3rd symphony unbearably boring, yet I am able to listen to a Bruckner or Mahler symphony for hours on end. Could you explain the appeal in it, for the first movement already puts me to sleep. I hate the Eroica variations even more.


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## brianvds

What, no mention of the godawful 1812 overture yet?


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## brianvds

Celloissimo said:


> I personally find Beethoven's entire 3rd symphony unbearably boring, yet I am able to listen to a Bruckner or Mahler symphony for hours on end. Could you explain the appeal in it, for the first movement already puts me to sleep. I hate the Eroica variations even more.


I am increasingly of the opinion that his worst work is everything he wrote after 1802 or so...

Of course, HE wasn't the one who had to listen to all that stuff. :devil: {Runs and hides}


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## Celloissimo

brianvds said:


> I am increasingly of the opinion that his worst work is everything he wrote after 1802 or so...
> 
> Of course, HE wasn't the one who had to listen to all that stuff. :devil: {Runs and hides}


Pahahahaha that was the best thing I've read all day.

But in that regard, I strongly disagree. His finest works were composed after 1802....The Triple Concerto, Piano Sonata No. 32, Symphonies 6, 7, 9....


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## Joris

Bach Mass in B-minor, I mean come on


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## Couac Addict

Chalk down another for Wellington's Victory. It's like a mash-up of parlour tunes and in sections it sounds like Wellington is attacking a Tijuana piñata party.


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## Garlic

Is that a joke?


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## AdmiralSilver

Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto 
Very shallow.


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## Joris

Yeah sorry, I just can't think of one... Maybe anything by Boulez or Babbitt; as bad as postmodernist science: carefully constructed sure, but adding no value at all


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## Ymer

Joris said:


> Bach Mass in B-minor, I mean come on


What, not even the Agnus Dei? I love that piece of music!


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## Mahlerian

Joris said:


> Yeah sorry, I just can't think of one... Maybe anything by Boulez or Babbitt


If you think that _anything_ they write is bad, why consider them major composers at all?

I love Boulez's music, but Babbitt's is mostly a closed book to me.



Joris said:


> as bad as postmodernist science: carefully constructed sure, but adding no value at all


_Le marteau sans maitre_ is an immortal, beautiful piece. Beauty is something I value highly.


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## Joris

Ymer said:


> What, not even the Agnus Dei? I love that piece of music!


I was kidding  I like the work a lot

Mahlerian, of course you are right  I just think that they are the excesses of elitism. But I put it rather childish, I know. 
Maybe they are major composers because you learn about them at 20th century courses (in my case), and not Rachmaninov (not that I like him but that aside) for example. Major in the sense of innovation.

AdmiralSilver, it's probably not the best, but not the worst either. It's quite an accomplishment and I find it very moving at times (some parts not at all)


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## Cheyenne

Ligeti's Poeme Symphonique. A joke, but a dull one.


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## Celloissimo

Couac Addict said:


> Chalk down another for Wellington's Victory. It's like a mash-up of parlour tunes and in sections it sounds like Wellington is attacking a Tijuana piñata party.


"was ich scheisse, ist besser, als was du je gedacht" XP

Yeah, I'll agree Wellington's Victory is a stinker though. Not everything you compose is not going to be a masterpiece. What else from his late period do you find horrendous?


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## Joris

^ Haha with the 100 metronomes. A site even sells a score of it


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## Mahlerian

Joris said:


> Mahlerian, of course you are right  I just think that they are the excesses of elitism. But I put it rather childish, I know.
> Maybe they are major composers because you learn about them at 20th century courses (in my case), and not Rachmaninov (not that I like him but that aside) for example. Major in the sense of innovation.


Without elitism in the arts, we wouldn't have Gesualdo or Mahler (to name two who came from opposite economic positions), neither of whom were at all beholden to public taste in their compositions.

I agree that 20th century music history should take a balanced approach that includes the popular as well as the innovative. And there were innovations in the 20th century that led to relative dead ends compositionally, such as Futurism, Integral Serialism, and Minimalism (as opposed to post-minimalism like Adams or the later work of Glass and Reich). Each of these has left its mark on the century's development, but more in the way of detours than the main road.


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## KenOC

Celloissimo said:


> "was ich scheisse, ist besser, als was du je gedacht" XP


It's interesting that Ludwig scrawled this comment more than a decade after he wrote Wellington's Victory. He remained quite attached to it, maybe because it was one of his few works that could compete with Rossini among the musical masses. It also made him a boatload of money. From a review of the premiere, where it was accompanied by the 7th Symphony:

"We hardly need to add that laymen were completely amazed at this work and did not know what had happened to them, while on the other hand connoisseurs preferred the preceding symphony as a more noble work of art by far."


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## Celloissimo

KenOC said:


> It's interesting that Ludwig scrawled this comment more than a decade after he wrote Wellington's Victory. He remained quite attached to it, maybe because it was one of his few works that could compete with Rossini among the musical masses. It also made him a boatload of money. From a review of the premiere, where it was accompanied by the 7th Symphony:
> 
> "We hardly need to add that laymen were completely amazed at this work and did not know what had happened to them, while on the other hand connoisseurs preferred the preceding symphony as a more noble work of art by far."


That's how I feel about a lot of the pieces mentioned here, such as the 1812 Overture and Marche Slave. They have appeal with the masses who are ignorant of the much more artistically integral works of the composer.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

KenOC said:


> I'd be a bit careful about criticizing Wellington's Victory. The last time Gottfried Weber did that, he earned Ludwig's greatest one-liner: "Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!" Google Translate will handle that, I won't (even with gloves). :lol:


Statements like these are a turn-off for me, personally.


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## sharik

i don't know if Bernstein's a major composer but i saw his music movie _West Side Story_ where i liked everything except the arias _I Feel Pretty_ and _Maria_ which are outright horrible.


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## BurningDesire

Garlic said:


> ^ A great piece of orchestration if nothing else.
> 
> Not sure if he's considered a major figure here, but Cornelius Cardew's late "worker's power" anthems are truly bizarre and hold a strange fascination for me that is totally disproportionate to their quality. This is after he abandoned serialism, aleatoric music and free improvisation for being too elitist, having spent most of his career in these areas. He was totally sincere - there is no trace of irony here.


The ideas in the music aren't all bad (I strongly suspect alot of the badness is from a lackluster performance and recording quality). The main problems would be that really cheesy drum writing (but it may be the aforementioned issues that are causing that to be a problem), and the way the vocal writing is written very awkwardly around the text. If it were purely instrumental it probably could have worked better. At any rate I can admire an artist with strong conviction and vision.


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## BurningDesire

Joris said:


> Yeah sorry, I just can't think of one... Maybe anything by Boulez or Babbitt; as bad as postmodernist science: carefully constructed sure, but adding no value at all


Boulez and Babbitt both wrote plenty of great music. If you find no value at all, you might want to remove your earplugs and actually listen this time.


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## realdealblues

I don't know about worst compositions but when I first heard Beethoven's Triple Concerto I was fairly let down and found it quite boring to be honest. I was expecting something far more grand and epic.


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## Celloissimo

I love the triple concerto. It has a high virtuosity level for all the instruments, and what impresses me most is the technical demands of the solo cello part. Because it's difficult to structure voice leading between all three solo instruments without creating a really muddy texture, Beethoven put pretty much 98% of the cell part in the upper-register. I'm talking about using thumb and 5-7th positions the whole time, which really makes you admire the endurance of the soloist. All the instruments are accompanied by beautiful and virtuosic ornamentation that makes it a truly outstanding work.


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## Celloissimo

sharik said:


> i don't know if Bernstein's a major composer but i saw his music movie _West Side Story_ where i liked everything except the arias _I Feel Pretty_ and _Maria_ which are outright horrible.


I really don't know what Bernstein was thinking when he decided to make "Mar--ia" a tritone leap.


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## Joris

Handy for ear training students


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## TurnaboutVox

Garlic said:


> Not sure if he's considered a major figure here, but Cornelius Cardew's late "worker's power" anthems are truly bizarre and hold a strange fascination for me that is totally disproportionate to their quality.


Catchy!

Surely not a major composer, though?


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## Garlic

He's a pretty major figure in avant garde circles, or was at one stage

Notorious for his polemic "Stockhausen Serves Imperialism"


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## GioCar

Tchaikovsky: Ouverture 1812


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## Svelte Silhouette

A tad unkind to this very popular Hi-Fi test disc methinks


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## PetrB

Joris said:


> Bach Mass in B-minor, I mean come on


Dude, eve if you were joking, I am with your statement all the way on this one, _and_ I would add the St. Matthew's Passion.

But now I think it is time for both of us to duck and cover...


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## PetrB

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Statements like these are a turn-off for me, personally.


History is full of statements and quips like that. 
Maybe you'll be wanting to stay away from history, then.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> History is full of statements and quips like that.
> Maybe you'll be wanting to stay away from history, then.


I'm having a T-shirt made with that quote. I have an ample belly, so it should fit. And I'm quite old, so hopefully nobody will hit me!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Schoenberg's Suite for String Orchestra


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## Mahlerian

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Schoenberg's Suite for String Orchestra


Not his best work for sure. The opening movement with its fugue feels painfully academic. I have a fondness for some of the middle movements, though.

I'd say the Theme and Variations for Band might be his worst work with an opus number.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Beethoven's theme and variations for Flute and Piano, he wrote 5 sets of these.  The flute part is horrible, insulting if not just simplistic.


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## Mahlerian

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Beethoven's theme and variations for Flute and Piano, he wrote 5 sets of these.  The flute part is horrible, insulting if not just simplistic.


You mean like Op. 105? That is terrible indeed...


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## Huilunsoittaja

Mahlerian said:


> You mean like Op. 105? That is terrible indeed...


Yes, that one, and I guess there are 6 sets in that opus.

I'm surprised that it's a late period work...


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## Stargazer

Oh Mozart, you dog!


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## Garlic

It's really not bad at all musically!


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## GodNickSatan

Stargazer said:


> Oh Mozart, you dog!


I love this! Not bad at all.


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## shangoyal

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Beethoven's theme and variations for Flute and Piano, he wrote 5 sets of these.  The flute part is horrible, insulting if not just simplistic.


I think that work is quite good, it's better than his Battle symphony.


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## ahammel

shangoyal said:


> I think that work is quite good, it's better than his Battle symphony.


It could hardly be worse.


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## IBMchicago

I've been reading this thread and, I think for this topic it seems easier to pick on Beethoven because, unlike his formiddable contemporaries/predecessors, Beethoven actually had the time and means to work more carefully and diligently on his art. Bach was required to deliver a great deal of religious music. Haydn had to manage a puppet theater, music students and all sorts of other day-to-day management of music admistration at the Esterhazy estate. Both Mozart and Schubert had to compose twiddly dances and smaller-scale piano music for their students to earn a living. All delivered incredible masterpieces (for which they are celebrated) and their fair shair of clunkers, as well. So, what's Beethoven's excuse?

Oh, and I challenge any other composer to deliver better "arsch" music!


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## mstar

Stargazer said:


> Oh Mozart, you dog!


When I first heard about this last year, I was absolutely horrified. Looks like linking it has just secured my fate - I will listen to it. 

Also, it seems that the famed composers sometimes have a great many terrible works hidden beneath their lists of great ones.... Do you think that composers generally wrote their best compositions towards the ends of their lives, or no? (Perhaps that could be a thread)


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## Ingélou

If they lived to be very old and past it - no. If they died in their prime - yes.


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## shangoyal

ahammel said:


> It could hardly be worse.


Maybe it doesn't have anything to say, but it's decent and pleasant music, certainly not clumsily put together or bad sounding.


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## KenOC

shangoyal said:


> I think that work is quite good, it's better than his Battle symphony.


Beethoven's flute variations, sixteen sets in the Opp. 105 and 107, were written for the English and Scottish markets, to be played by young amateurs mostly at home. They evidently served their purpose well, since the publisher George Thomson kept Beethoven supplied with work for several years writing collections of variations and songs, mostly based on the songs of various nations.

The flute variations are pleasant enough, and they're interesting because some are based on songs that are still well known, and there are previews among them of approaches used in later more substantial variation works, especially the Op. 111's Arietta and the Diabellis.


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## Stargazer

mstar said:


> Also, it seems that the famed composers sometimes have a great many terrible works hidden beneath their lists of great ones.... Do you think that composers generally wrote their best compositions towards the ends of their lives, or no? (Perhaps that could be a thread)


I find this to be true in general. It's only logical, the more experience a composer has, the better he will be at composing. As with anything in life, it often takes a few failures to get that first big success! Also when composers get older they often gravitate towards more mature and serious themes. When I find a new composer that I like I always start from their late works and work my way backwards.


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## Copperears

Haydn's "Surprise" Symphony..... where's the surprise?!


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## StevenOBrien

Copperears said:


> Haydn's "Surprise" Symphony..... where's the surprise?!







The sudden fortissimo isn't a recurring motif. It happens once to frighten people who have fallen asleep, apparently.


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## Orfeo

AdmiralSilver said:


> Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto
> Very shallow.


I always like his Second Concerto better. That to me is true Tchaikovsky.


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## spradlig

I don't care for it either. I find it extremely cheesy. I love much of Tchaikovsky's other music, including his 2d Piano Concerto.



AdmiralSilver said:


> Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto
> Very shallow.


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## mikey

THis has been bothering me for a quite a while now and no one can really come up with an straight answer for me.
_*What makes a piece of music great?*_
I have read so many contradicting opinions in books and reviews and from talking with teachers about the same works so who am I to believe? If it's solely myself, then the whole idea of a great work is subjective.
A piece of music I recently came into contact with - the Taneyev Piano Quintet. I think it's rather ridiculously over-the-top awesome! I've read it's a neglected Russian Masterpiece. I've also read that it's unmemorable and somewhat meh...Admittedly the performance is Pletnev, Repin, Harrel etc who in my mind dig a whole lot out of it. So my other question is then
*If a performer can make something great out of a supposedly 'bad' piece, is it still a bad piece?*


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Copperears said:


> Haydn's "Surprise" Symphony..... where's the surprise?!


What does that have to do with the composition? The 'surprise' part is a tiny fragment of the symphony.


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## Mahlerian

mikey said:


> *If a performer can make something great out of a supposedly 'bad' piece, is it still a bad piece?*


Yes. One can bring out the good things in a lesser work of art through great performance, and great works in bad performances can be a terrible experience.

You also have to note that you're citing two different strands of thought about the Taneyev Quintet: one says that it's a neglected masterpiece, and the other that it is nothing terribly special. The latter is not simply the reverse of the former, as great/terrible or good/bad would be.

I think there are criteria that are used by everyone conversant in a style to evaluate music written in that style. Different people will respond differently to elements that diverge from those criteria, though, and weight them differently.


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## mikey

> Yes. One can bring out the good things in a lesser work of art through great performance, and great works in bad performances can be a terrible experience.


But they only have the piece to work with; everything they're creating is somewhere in the piece and needs to be dug out. No?



> You also have to note that you're citing two different strands of thought about the Taneyev Quintet: one says that it's a neglected masterpiece, and the other that it is nothing terribly special. The latter is not simply the reverse of the former, as great/terrible or good/bad would be.


I'm not quite sure how it's not? A masterpiece surely has to be something special, something to get noticed. Perhaps I need to find/reread that again.



> I think there are criteria that are used by everyone conversant in a style to evaluate music written in that style. Different people will respond differently to elements that diverge from those criteria, though, and weight them differently.


So it's basically subjective? haha

Not entering into an argument here, just trying to figure this out.


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## presto

I have to agree on Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, it has a promising title but alas a very uninspired work.


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## Funny

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> What does that have to do with the composition? The 'surprise' part is a tiny fragment of the symphony.


One fortissimo chord seems like an easy, cheap-shot joke, and was of course a surprise to the first listeners, for whom it wasn't known as "The Surprise Symphony." However, I think the joke is richer than that. If you listen to a lot of Haydn symphonic slow movements, which all tend to start quietly, you'll find that having a sudden fortissimo intrude to launch a new section occurs pretty frequently. Check out this effect in Symphony #55, very similar to the "Surprise" chord, only the fortissimo is contextualized by being carried forward with the rest of the melody. Having done that kind of thing multiple times, Haydn is not just waking people up with this single chord in #94, but sharpening the joke by making the intrusion 100% gratuitous in contrast to his previous practice.


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## Funny

Rachmaninoff is probably teetering on the edge of the "Great" category, but he was once in my own top 5, and even then I could never stand the 4th piano concerto. Comes off as him trying too hard to recapture former glory while incorporating Gershwinisms to seem up-to-date. I don't care much for his 1st concerto either, but at least it seems like a sincerely felt work. Happily after the misfire of the 4th he came back with his 5th, the "Rhapsody," which remains one of his most successful and enduring works in any genre.


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> What does that have to do with the composition? The 'surprise' part is a tiny fragment of the symphony.


And I'm sure Haydn didn't name it the "Surprise".

For a real musical Haydn joke I turn to Szell's performance of the second movement of Haydn's 93rd Symphony, the famous bassoon "fart". There, our disbelieving friend would "get" the joke!!!


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## hpowders

presto said:


> I have to agree on Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, it has a promising title but alas a very uninspired work.


It is called a "pot-boiler". He did it for the money.


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## Matsps

IBMchicago said:


> So, what's Beethoven's excuse?


Being deaf isn't a good excuse?


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## hpowders

To mention one of Haydn's greatest compositions, the symphony #94 on a list of "worst compositions" shows a complete lack of knowledge of this composer.

There are a few keyboard sonatas that are uninspired, in my opinion, that do not do the name of Haydn justice.


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## hpowders

Prokofiev, Symphony #6.

He tried the formula that worked so well for him in the 5th symphony, but didn't succeed.
The 5th is exciting; the 6th is boring.


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## dgee

Funny said:


> Rachmaninoff is probably teetering on the edge of the "Great" category, but he was once in my own top 5, and even then I could never stand the 4th piano concerto. Comes off as him trying too hard to recapture former glory while incorporating Gershwinisms to seem up-to-date. I don't care much for his 1st concerto either, but at least it seems like a sincerely felt work. Happily after the misfire of the 4th he came back with his 5th, the "Rhapsody," which remains one of his most successful and enduring works in any genre.


haha - PC4 is in the clutch of good Rach with Symphonic Dances, some of the more outrageous preludes, some later songs, and, of course, the Paganini Rhapsody - wit, technique an a sense of vulnerability rather than bluster. His worst is probably PC3 - a gross, bloated over-reach that continues to regularly stain the concert hall with its rancid decay (exaggeration intentional)

While we're on the subject Elgar's Violin Concerto was a mistake (may not be his worst but it's a dunger none the less)

EDIT: put "for me" in front of all those statements lol


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## Bulldog

Shostakovich's Festive Overture - puts me in a foul mood.


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## mtmailey

LISZT 2 symphonies are not that great compared to his piano music.Schubert string quartets #1-8 are not that great to me.SCHUMANN concertos are not great compared to his symphonies.


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## Haydn man

1812 overture is just a terrible piece
It is the musical equivalent of surgical enhancement done badly


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## KenOC

Haydn man said:


> 1812 overture is just a terrible piece
> It is the musical equivalent of surgical enhancement done badly


But it has cannons, for which all is forgiven. More music should have cannons!

Pachelbel knew this, but made a small spelling error.


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## hpowders

So did Schoenberg, I fear.

My name has 13 letters. Trying to get it legally changed.


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## PetrB

Mahlerian said:


> The surest sign in my mind that music is bad is that it sounds like a parody of good music in the same style.


I'll buy _that_ for a dollar!


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## Serge

Haydn man said:


> 1812 overture is just a terrible piece
> It is the musical equivalent of surgical enhancement done badly


Not a bad piece for per se, it's just overloaded with excitement and... well, overloaded.

But hey, look how popular it is! 4th of July, anyone? So Tchaikovsky must have hit some kind of nerve with that one.


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## Haydn man

KenOC said:


> But it has cannons, for which all is forgiven. More music should have cannons!
> 
> Pachelbel knew this, but made a small spelling error.


No it shouldn't


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## hpowders

I was thumbing through my Haydn CD's looking for the worst composition and I couldn't find any that would qualify. Sorry.


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## Woodduck

Mahlerian said:


> There can be only one:ucia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, the worst piece of music ever penned by a first-tier composer!


As I listened to this piece, the very existence of which had heretofore escaped my attention, I noticed my breathing becoming shallow, my eyes widening, and my mouth falling slowly open. After about three minutes I began to feel an acute anxiety, and sensed that I would need to make a decision: would I stay with this for another eleven minutes, hoping that an actual musical idea would appear and save me from some unimaginable breakdown of mental or physical functioning?

I groaned softly and closed my eyes. Should I do this, I wondered? _Could_ I do it? Did I have the strength? Could sheer curiosity pull me safely through?

Well, I'm happy to report that it could and did. Fourteen minutes and approximately thirty sextillion, fifteen trillion, seven billion, three million, one thousand five hundred and seventeen notes, with not a trace of a melodic idea to offer a moment's distraction from them, and I'm still here, only slightly the worse for wear (if, alas, fourteen minutes older).

Now, though, I know I need to come back to reality, rest my body and mind, restore my sense of what the art of music can be, and listen to something profound and nourishing. So let's see...hmmm.....

Ah yes! Sinfonia Domestica!


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## TurnaboutVox

Haydn man said:


> No it shouldn't


Au contraire, I can think of some composers whose works would be immeasurably improved by simultaneous sustained cannon-fire...


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## Woodduck

Weston said:


> Rachmaninov - The Bells.
> Unlistenable to me.


_The Bells_ was Rachmaninov's own favorite among his works. The man obviously had no taste.


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## Woodduck

Celloissimo said:


> I personally find Beethoven's entire 3rd symphony unbearably boring, yet I am able to listen to a Bruckner or Mahler symphony for hours on end. Could you explain the appeal in it, for the first movement already puts me to sleep. I hate the Eroica variations even more.


I fear that no one can help you.


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## mtmailey

Haydn man said:


> 1812 overture is just a terrible piece
> It is the musical equivalent of surgical enhancement done badly


THAT MAKES NO SENSE the 1812 overture is one of his best works.


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> _The Bells_ was Rachmaninov's own favorite among his works. The man obviously had no taste.


. . . or left foot. But then, he's no John Cage.


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## Kilgore Trout

hpowders said:


> Prokofiev, Symphony #6.
> 
> He tried the formula that worked so well for him in the 5th symphony, but didn't succeed.
> The 5th is exciting; the 6th is boring.


The 6th only ressemble the 5th superficially. It is also a difficult piece to execute, so people have a wrong image of it.

I consider it one of Prokofiev's best pieces, and his best symphony.


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## CBD

Kilgore Trout said:


> The 6th only ressemble the 5th superficially. It is also a difficult piece to execute, so people have a wrong image of it.
> 
> I consider it one of Prokofiev's best pieces, and his best symphony.


My main gripe with the sixth symphony is that the first two movements set up a really reverent mood, and then suddenly it's like the circus came to town.


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## Funny

dgee said:


> haha - PC4 is in the clutch of good Rach with Symphonic Dances, some of the more outrageous preludes, some later songs, and, of course, the Paganini Rhapsody - wit, technique an a sense of vulnerability rather than bluster. His worst is probably PC3 - a gross, bloated over-reach that continues to regularly stain the concert hall with its rancid decay (exaggeration intentional)


PC3 is bloated, I'll give you that, but it's old-school Rachmaninoff doing his Last-of-the-Romantics thing to the hilt, and it makes sense as such. The 4th seems insincere and poorly integrated, the aping of Gershwin especially (compare with Ravel's more successful integration of similar ideas). The Rhapsody is deservedly acclaimed because there he was able to integrate some of the new jazz-age ideas with his old style, using the "mask" of an older theme to allow him the freedom to explore without having to make a Big Statement at every juncture.


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## Woodduck

Funny said:


> PC3 is bloated, I'll give you that, but it's old-school Rachmaninoff doing his Last-of-the-Romantics thing to the hilt, and it makes sense as such. The 4th seems insincere and poorly integrated, the aping of Gershwin especially (compare with Ravel's more successful integration of similar ideas). The Rhapsody is deservedly acclaimed because there he was able to integrate some of the new jazz-age ideas with his old style, using the "mask" of an older theme to allow him the freedom to explore without having to make a Big Statement at every juncture.


Really good points all. Odd, though, how I've gradually become fond of the maligned #4 over the years, to the point where it's gone from being my least to most favorite of the four. It may be partly listener fatigue toward #2 and #3 (I like #1 a lot now too), but although I still love most of R's music, his late works have all come to mean more to me as I've aged. There's an austerity, almost an astringency, in #4 that makes its more emotional moments all the more affecting; the climax of the slow movement, where that long melodic phrase climbs slowly in the strings accompanied by those poignant, delicately dissonant repeated chords on the piano, is for me one of the great, heartbreaking moments in R's music. R really abjures in his last works the expansiveness for which he's known and loved - or not, depending on how much you like his language. I like his language just fine, but lately I like even more his terser final statements.


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## Morimur

Philip Glass' complete output thus far.


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## Richannes Wrahms

A quick reminder, "Worst compositions" doesn't mean "compositions I don't like" (there's many other threads for that, like "The Classical Music Confessional", "Unworthy!" and "Is There a Great Composer You Plain Just Don't Like"). I don't see how The Bells can be considered Rachmaninoff's worst.

That said, there are a few works by major composers that I can't understand what the heck where they thinking when they wrote them and certainly stand out from the rest of their music. Specially when both music and score look ugly and unpolished.


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## KarlHeinz

Wichita Sutra Vortex by Philip Glass sucks major ***. It sounds like a hobby pianist improvising non-enthusiastically.


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## larold

Mahler's 8th symphony and its stupid libretto. Read the first half sometime.

I can't say Vaughan Williams' "Sea" (No. 1) symphony ever did anything for me but sunk my interest in it.

Olivier Messiaen's Turan-galila symphony is probably as dumb as Mahler's 8th.

Tchaikovsky's "Polish" (No. 3) symphony is an easy pick.

Can't say I've ever been able to sit through a J.S. Bach motet either.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Mendelssohn's symphony no. 2. 

Ravel's Bolero as mentioned. I think Shostakovich's 7th symphony is used to question political prisoners.


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## starthrower

larold said:


> Mahler's 8th symphony and its stupid libretto. Read the first half sometime.
> 
> I can't say Vaughan Williams' "Sea" (No. 1) symphony ever did anything for me but sunk my interest in it.
> 
> Olivier Messiaen's Turan-galila symphony is probably as dumb as Mahler's 8th.
> 
> Tchaikovsky's "Polish" (No. 3) symphony is an easy pick.
> 
> Can't say I've ever been able to sit through a J.S. Bach motet either.


Maybe the problem lies with the listener, eh?


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## DavidA

I must confess to be puzzled by threads like this. I'm actually not interested in the 'worst' compositions but the best!


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## CnC Bartok

larold said:


> Mahler's 8th symphony and its stupid libretto. Read the first half sometime.


Is it really any more daft than other religious texts???

The only work I'd like to mention here would come under the "most pointless composition" bracket, rather than worst. It's Bartok's Concerto for two Pianos and Orchestra. The Sonata whence it derives is a stupendously brilliant piece, one of his very very finest, so what the hell was the point of adding in a few spare instruments? Dilution, I'd call it. Like a Hungarian Bull's Blood spritzer....


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## larold

_Maybe the problem lies with the listener, eh? _

What problem is that?


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## larold

_Is it really any more daft than other religious texts???_

It's typical of Mahler; he doesn't know if he believes or not. So what's the point?


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## Larkenfield

larold said:


> _Is it really any more daft than other religious texts???_
> 
> It's typical of Mahler; he doesn't know if he believes or not. So what's the point?


The spiritual sublimity of his music suggests otherwise, fully on display in his adagios, unless that completely goes over one's head because of vindictiveness or spite. His 8th's "stupid libretto"? Part I is based on the Latin text of a 9th-century Christian hymn Veni creator spiritus ("Come, Creator Spirit"), and Part II is a setting of the words from the closing scene of Goethe's _Faust_. _That_ "stupid libretto"? Whether someone likes his 8th or not, Mahler is celebrating the spirit of creation and the dignity of the human spirit.


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## Littlephrase

Schubert has a weak oratorio called _Lazarus_, which is far from his greatest work (to put it nicely).


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## Artran

Symphonie funebre et triomphale by Berlioz sounds horrendous to my ears. It's like if the composer has lost his mind.


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## hammeredklavier

I don't necessarily think Chopin/Schumann piano concertos, Beethoven Eroica 4th movement, Triple Concerto classify as 'bad' works. 
At least they're composers putting effort to write something of quality that conforms to some kind of 'form' and 'structure'. 
Chopin piano concertos are actually somewhat impressive (in terms of melodic flow, handling of intricate passages) considering the age he wrote them, albeit with obvious flaws of instrumental balance and orchestration.
Chopin's worst works are his Parisian Salon ternary miniatures written throughout his life, with constant vamping of the same da-dada, da-dada, da-dada rhythm


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## elgar's ghost

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Schubert has a weak oratorio called _Lazarus_, which is far from his greatest work (to put it nicely).


Yes, _Lazarus_ is far from his greatest offering, but it's still a pity he never completed it if only because it occupies a stand-alone position in his output. Based on what I've heard I would say Schubert's Achilles Heel were large-scale dramatic works in general - he hadn't yet acquired a true instinct for the theatrical. Maybe he would have mastered both opera and oratorio had he lived longer.


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## elgar's ghost

Artran said:


> Symphonie funebre et triomphale by Berlioz sounds horrendous to my ears. It's like if the composer has lost his mind.


If the back-story is anything to go by that was a real possibility before he pulled himself together.


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## Jacck

the worst composition by Mozart: Eine kleine Nachtmusik
the worst composition by Bach: this 



 (it is ugly)
bad music by Beethoven? : this 



 (it is just pathetic)
Mahler - 1st movement of the 3rd symphony, it is just absolutely incoherent


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## Littlephrase

Jacck said:


> the worst composition by Mozart: Eine kleine Nachtmusik
> the worst composition by Bach: this
> 
> 
> 
> (it is ugly)
> bad music by Beethoven? : this
> 
> 
> 
> (it is just pathetic)
> Mahler - 1st movement of the 3rd symphony, it is just absolutely incoherent


None of these works are bad per se. The Mozart is just overexposed, the Bach is OK, the Beethoven is jaunty, and the Mahler is excellent.

Beethoven especially has much worse works; namely The Glorious Moment, Germania, the Choral Fantasy, Christus um Ölberge, and Wellington's Victory.


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## hammeredklavier

Jacck said:


> bad music by Beethoven? : this
> 
> 
> 
> (it is just pathetic)


Not really that pathetic you compare with some of the 'masterworks' of the 'history's greatest' pianist-composer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonaise_in_A-flat_major,_Op._53
_"This composition is one of Chopin's most admired compositions and has long been a favorite of the classical piano repertoire."_

'E - D# - C# - B

Eb - D - C - Bb

rinse and repeat'


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## Littlephrase

hammeredklavier said:


> Not really that pathetic you compare with some of the 'masterworks' of the 'history's greatest' pianist-composer.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonaise_in_A-flat_major,_Op._53
> _"This composition is one of Chopin's most admired compositions and has long been a favorite of the classical piano repertoire."_
> 
> 'E - D# - C# - B
> 
> Eb - D - C - Bb
> 
> rinse and repeat'
> 
> View attachment 113287
> 
> View attachment 113288


What is with this incessant crusade to besmirch Chopin and Schubert?


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## hammeredklavier

Littlephrase1913 said:


> What is with this incessant crusade to besmirch Chopin and Schubert?


I praised Chopin piano concertos in my last post, I'm just making a point it's not the concertos people should be judgmental regarding his work.


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## hammeredklavier

6:00 ~ 9:00 
Not necessarily a 'bad' work, but overall there are just too many instruments playing the same theme in unison


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## hammeredklavier

Jacck said:


> the worst composition by Mozart: Eine kleine Nachtmusik
> the worst composition by Bach: this
> 
> 
> 
> (it is ugly)


I have listened to these multiple times now, trying to figure out what's objectively 'bad' about these works as you suggested. 
The Bach is cleverly written with effective vocal, instrumental part writing. Isn't this the kind of smaller vocal piece you would expect to hear in larger scale works like Mass in B minor? Maybe there's special 'depth' in it you're not getting yet, like in the case in the Art of Fugue.

The Mozart (together with K361, K388 etc) is what inspired Tchaikovsky to write his Serenade for Strings in C Op.48. (Not the kind of proto-ragtime-ish piano cited above) It conforms to the classical ideals of balance, clarity, contrast and has ample singable part harmony, fugato sections.






You could still argue they're their worst compositions. But are not 'bad' works in the objective sense. The same goes with the Beethoven. I don't see anything particularly pathetic about it compared to Schubert symphonies. If they're that 'bad', what would you say about 50% of Schubert. (Let's be fair at least) I don't think 'I don't like it' a valid reason to condemn a work as poorly written.



Richannes Wrahms said:


> A quick reminder, "Worst compositions" doesn't mean "compositions I don't like" (there's many other threads for that, like "The Classical Music Confessional", "Unworthy!" and "Is There a Great Composer You Plain Just Don't Like").


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## DaveM

I’m getting the impression that people are having trouble distinguishing between works that are truly bad and works they don’t like.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Jacck said:


> bad music by Beethoven? : this
> 
> 
> 
> (it is just pathetic)
> Mahler - 1st movement of the 3rd symphony, it is just absolutely incoherent


I can actually understand your choice for the Mahler pick, even though I do like it. However, your choice for Beethoven is just absurd. The whole symphony is brilliant, and the last movement is no exception. To each his own, I guess.


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## KenOC

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> ...However, your choice for Beethoven is just absurd. The whole symphony is brilliant, and the last movement is no exception. To each his own, I guess.


Beecham described it as "a bunch of yaks leaping about. What can you do with it?"

Good thing I like yaks!


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## Heck148

Artran said:


> Symphonie funebre et triomphale by Berlioz sounds horrendous to my ears. It's like if the composer has lost his mind.


yeh, really noisy, and seems rather directionless....


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## premont

DaveM said:


> I'm getting the impression that people are having trouble distinguishing between works that are truly bad and works they don't like.


That's because it is far easier to exert taste than to define quality.


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