# Need help ASAP



## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

So I had this great idea for part of the development section. I would take the individual phrases of the Ode to Joy theme I used and have both the normal and inversion except transposed to D minor. I would alternate the normal phrase and the inverted phrase and I would also alternate which hand plays the melody. Transposing from D major to F major was a breeze. Transposing to D minor should just be a matter of bringing everything down a third. But it is turning out to be a nightmare. Lots of dissonance. Chords not native to the scale, it is madness. And with the first phrase, the ending chord is C dom7 third inversion, just as you would expect. However with it transposed to D minor I get G dim7. Very dissonant and not really suitable for a Mozart style sonata. And while yes, it does resolve to D minor, it only does so if I use the harmonic minor and D minor is one of those minors that I don't think harmonic minor is suitable for. I just get so much of a "It wants to resolve the the major tonic, not the minor tonic" feeling with harmonic and melodic both for the first 5 flat minors.

I know Mozart used diminished chords but I can only think of 1 classical period composer that would use a diminished 7th chord, Beethoven.

Here is the sheet music for the theme that I transposed to F major and am trying to transpose to D minor without diminished 7ths or harmonic minor:

Ode to Joy Theme

Just so you know, I did modify the theme. Where there were G# notes, I just moved them down to G and then transposed those notes to Bb just like I would for a G natural in the original theme. I also modified the left hand cosiderably, going from long notes to 16th notes, with most of them being alberti bass except for a few spots where I found alternating between 2 notes a step away or doing a short scale would be best.


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## E Cristobal Poveda (Jul 12, 2017)

caters said:


> So I had this great idea for part of the development section. I would take the individual phrases of the Ode to Joy theme I used and have both the normal and inversion except transposed to D minor. I would alternate the normal phrase and the inverted phrase and I would also alternate which hand plays the melody. Transposing from D major to F major was a breeze. Transposing to D minor should just be a matter of bringing everything down a third. But it is turning out to be a nightmare. Lots of dissonance. Chords not native to the scale, it is madness. And with the first phrase, the ending chord is C dom7 third inversion, just as you would expect. However with it transposed to D minor I get G dim7. Very dissonant and not really suitable for a Mozart style sonata. And while yes, it does resolve to D minor, it only does so if I use the harmonic minor and D minor is one of those minors that I don't think harmonic minor is suitable for. I just get so much of a "It wants to resolve the the major tonic, not the minor tonic" feeling with harmonic and melodic both for the first 5 flat minors.
> 
> I know Mozart used diminished chords but I can only think of 1 classical period composer that would use a diminished 7th chord, Beethoven.
> 
> ...


Why are you trying so hard to be uninspired? Always thinking in terms of the greats and what they would have done. **** that. If you're always living in their shadow, you'll never have one of your own.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Once again, all talk, no music of your own. Why don't you just write the Ode theme out in its simplest form, then write out your version inverted in D minor and post them. Then we will be able to tell you what you did wrong and how to do it right.


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

I honestly don't think I would have my own style if I tried. When I do a lot of planning in a minor key, my music ends up like that of Beethoven. When I just go with he flow, my music ends up a lot like Mozart, which is great for this time when I am challenging myself to compose an entire Mozart style sonata for Mozart's birthday. When I am composing a nocturne, it sounds a lot like Chopin. When I am composing a fugue, I only listen to Bach and analyses of Bach's fugues.

And to be honest, I think their styles need a revival. Yes, pieces by them are played but modern classical music is so atonal with 12 tone rows that I don't even think of it as classical music anymore. If I compose with the great composer's styles, chances are that many more people will like my pieces than modern classical music and say something along the lines of "Continue composing Beethoven style pieces, have your children compose in the styles of the great composers and revive these styles of classical music.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

caters said:


> I think their styles need a revival. Yes, pieces by them are played but modern classical music is so atonal with 12 tone rows that I don't even think of it as classical music anymore. If I compose with the great composer's styles, chances are that many more people will like my pieces than modern classical music and say something along the lines of "Continue composing Beethoven style pieces, have your children compose in the styles of the great composers and revive these styles of classical music.


You and many other amateur composers wish this would be true, but it never will be. First, scratch out "classical" from the term "Classical music". It's always has been since the Medieval times been "Art music" vs "Secular music". Today's "art music" has many different styles and methods of creation, but it is based on the concept of expressing yourself rather than imitating past masters. The past masters did not imitate their previous masters, *so why should you?* No one says you must write atonal music to express yourself as a contemporary composer of art music. Imitating to learn aspects of composing in general is perfectly fine. But it is not to be an end unto itself.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

To answer your questions about inversion of the Ode to Joy theme, we need to know:

1. On what note in D minor do you plan to start the inverted form of the melody?
2. You are performing a diatonic inversion, right?


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

I plan to start the inverted form of the melody on F and yes I am doing a diatonic inversion.


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## E Cristobal Poveda (Jul 12, 2017)

Imo, Late Romantic/Impressionism needs a revival. I agree that the current state of music isn't all that pleasant to listen to. In all honesty, it often seems that reading the score is the only enjoyment there is to be had with newer music. 

I think the point is, instead of using themes from other composers, just write whatever. No attention to other composers, just write out a stream-of-consciousness piece. Whatever comes out, own it. Be unapolegitic. The purest form of personal expression is that of music coming straight from within, no complications and thoughts. Once you learn to do that, then you'll be able to shape your own independent style, and borrow from yourself, instead of the other greats.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

caters said:


> I honestly don't think I would have my own style if I tried. When I do a lot of planning in a minor key, my music ends up like that of Beethoven. When I just go with he flow, my music ends up a lot like Mozart, which is great for this time when I am challenging myself to compose an entire Mozart style sonata for Mozart's birthday. When I am composing a nocturne, it sounds a lot like Chopin. When I am composing a fugue, I only listen to Bach and analyses of Bach's fugues.
> 
> And to be honest, I think their styles need a revival. Yes, pieces by them are played but modern classical music is so atonal with 12 tone rows that I don't even think of it as classical music anymore. If I compose with the great composer's styles, chances are that many more people will like my pieces than modern classical music and say something along the lines of "Continue composing Beethoven style pieces, have your children compose in the styles of the great composers and revive these styles of classical music.


Try writing what you want to hear yourself, exactly the way you want it. You can try experimenting with different forms, techniques and revise till it suits the way you like it. Nobody can tell what you like. I don't mean you like Beethoven, so try to write like Beethoven in a general way. What is it exactly in a Beethoven piece you like, in real musical terms, that you want to hear yourself using a different tune/motif, or that you want to change/branch off from maybe because you haven't heard it done before? The truth is it's probably been done before in one form or another, but at least you can discover how you would want do it (in a practical sense).

Always tweak your works, trying different notes/harmony, counterpoint, etc. even after you moved onto something else. That is the only way you can improve. Listen to it with fresh ears after a while. You can usually find ways to improve if it wasn't so well done in the first place. If you ask for help too readily, you may not retain how to fix the next time, or really progress. You would basically have someone compose or make decisions for you.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

caters said:


> I honestly don't think I would have my own style if I tried. When I do a lot of planning in a minor key, my music ends up like that of Beethoven. When I just go with the flow, my music ends up a lot like Mozart, which is great for this time when I am challenging myself to compose an entire Mozart style sonata for Mozart's birthday. When I am composing a nocturne, it sounds a lot like Chopin. When I am composing a fugue, I only listen to Bach and analyses of Bach's fugues.
> 
> And to be honest, I think their styles need a revival. Yes, pieces by them are played but modern classical music is so atonal with 12 tone rows that I don't even think of it as classical music anymore. If I compose with the great composer's styles, chances are that many more people will like my pieces than modern classical music and say something along the lines of "Continue composing Beethoven style pieces, have your children compose in the styles of the great composers and revive these styles of classical music.


Speaking as a long time musician, I would suggest that you please stop planning. It's leading to nothing but confusion and not bringing you the satisfaction you're looking for. If you start with the mind you will get nowhere. Musical composition starts with a feeling, an impulse, an emotion, a sensation that is more related to the heart and feelings than to the head. If you don't feel anything, you'll probably never compose anything that sounds like you. The mind comes into play later to shape the idea rather than trying to calculate something that ends up sounding artificial... Just try writing a simple melody for a change that sounds original and is connected with an emotion, an impulse, and you happen to like, and practice doing that for a while. The genuine composer doesn't remind the listener of anyone else but himself, not Beethoven, not Mozart, not anyone, because they wrote from within and they weren't trying to imitate anyone. It takes discipline to do this. Or fall in love and let that feeling inspire you, or whatever is going on during the day, that could possibly relate to human experience. Best wishes.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

caters said:


> And to be honest, I think their styles need a revival. Yes, pieces by them are played but modern classical music is so atonal with 12 tone rows that I don't even think of it as classical music anymore. If I compose with the great composer's styles, chances are that many more people will like my pieces than modern classical music and say something along the lines of "Continue composing Beethoven style pieces, have your children compose in the styles of the great composers and revive these styles of classical music.


hi Caters,

These are all the wrong reasons to compose imv. If you stick to this paradigm, you will never realise your absolute fullest potential as a composer and you might never find a voice personal to you, let alone be relevant to your time. Unless you are a genius, you have some pretty stiff competition from the classical/romantic masters and must ask yourself why anybody would care about your pastiches when they can hear the real, masterful pieces. (Even if you are a genius, I'd question why you wouldn't want to forge ahead and speak to and for our time).

I'd advise a sense of musical adventure allied to some rigorous technical work because in the learning about how to do it, you will naturally find your own proclivities. Vasks is right in that aping great music does give major insight, but you need to also think about how what you are learning could be adapted for your own needs beyond the learning context. If one develops a sense of adventure or rather discovery by manipulating learnt technique beyond the learnt parameters, it might pay dividends in helping you understand your own self more. This process can lead to a more unique approach to composing, one built on a deeper understanding of process and more importantly, self.

You may not ultimately find originality or greatness, but the music you write will be much more potent and compelling.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

caters said:


> I plan to start the inverted form of the melody on F and yes I am doing a diatonic inversion.


Why don't you notate and post it? I am curious to see how you got into the problems you described in the OP, given that it sounds like a relatively straightforward task.


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

I figured out why I got that diminished 7th. So like usual I went into Transpose in musescore. I selected diatonic transposition down a third. But by default, it has it so that the scale degree relationships are kept. This means that I transpose into harmonic minor and get the diminished 7th chord. Once I unchecked that "Keep scale degree relationships", it worked, I transposed into Aeolian(in other words, natural minor) and got an Am7 chord. But the notes I had made it sound like a C major chord. So I moved G up to A to keep that strong V -> I


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

caters said:


> I figured out why I got that diminished 7th. So like usual I went into Transpose in musescore. I selected diatonic transposition down a third. But by default, it has it so that the scale degree relationships are kept. This means that I transpose into harmonic minor and get the diminished 7th chord. Once I unchecked that "Keep scale degree relationships", it worked, I transposed into Aeolian(in other words, natural minor) and got an Am7 chord. But the notes I had made it sound like a C major chord. So I moved G up to A to keep that strong V -> I


None of what you described has anything to do with inversion. Could you just notate your inverted version of the melody already? No one has any idea what you are trying to describe or why.


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## lachlan1415 (Jul 30, 2018)

caters said:


> I honestly don't think I would have my own style if I tried. When I do a lot of planning in a minor key, my music ends up like that of Beethoven. When I just go with he flow, my music ends up a lot like Mozart, which is great for this time when I am challenging myself to compose an entire Mozart style sonata for Mozart's birthday. When I am composing a nocturne, it sounds a lot like Chopin. When I am composing a fugue, I only listen to Bach and analyses of Bach's fugues.
> 
> And to be honest, I think their styles need a revival. Yes, pieces by them are played but modern classical music is so atonal with 12 tone rows that I don't even think of it as classical music anymore. If I compose with the great composer's styles, chances are that many more people will like my pieces than modern classical music and say something along the lines of "Continue composing Beethoven style pieces, have your children compose in the styles of the great composers and revive these styles of classical music.


You can compose in a classical style, Just copy entire themes! make your own music.


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