# Double Horns



## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

Would it be safe to assume that all the Horn players in a modern symphony had double horns? If the section were mixed between F and Bb horns, writing would be more complicated. (I am using double-horn samples in my trial mock-ups.) 

Thanks, --Konrad


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Konrad said:


> Would it be safe to assume that all the Horn players in a modern symphony had double horns? If the section were mixed between F and Bb horns, writing would be more complicated. (I am using double-horn samples in my trial mock-ups.)
> 
> Thanks, --Konrad


I don't know what the present practice is, but the ViennaPO used single F horns in the past...


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## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

That's good information. Thanks.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> I don't know what the present practice is, but the ViennaPO used single F horns in the past...


That's still the current practice. They consider single horns with Berlinerpumpen as an integral part of the "Viennese sound", together with Viennese oboes, Viennese English horns, and Oehler clarinets.

I didn't notice single horns anywhere else, but do expect a few ones in amateur orchestras.



Konrad said:


> [...] If the section were mixed between F and Bb horns, writing would be more complicated. [...]


Whether this makes writing any more difficult?

Vienna horns play exactly the same scores as elsewhere. They train more to play the more difficult high notes. Newcomers, and possibly candidates, acquire and learn the exotic horn.

If someone has the unusual idea to use a Bb horn in an orchestra, I'd say it's his duty to check the range and play the notes at proper height. That should not be the composer's burden. Provided that the range suffices, the musician must read the notes like on the Bb side of a double horn, or like on a Bb tenor Wagnertuba. All are written in F transposition despite of the natural harmonic series.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

When writing horn parts today, you write for F horn all the way and there's no reason to write for B flat horn - leave it in F. Players automatically know when to play on the F side or the B flat side - it's just a different fingering. If you change the transposition for the B flat horn you'll have a mess. 

Although most players out there use double horns for practical reasons, there is the weight of the instrument to take into consideration and some people I play with use single horns (usually in F) for long symphonies where the B flat side just isn't needed. And I know one woman who uses an old B flat horn when she plays some 19th c works where the fourth part is written for that horn. Just write parts for F horn and trust the players.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

Didn't Dennis Brain often use a Bb single?


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## Konrad (Oct 25, 2020)

@mbhaub, Excellent. Thank you.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Most horn players today use double horns, but there are still a number of them, usually principal players in major orchestras who prefer single B glad horns . They like their lightness . 
For treacherous high parts, the Viennese horn comes with a b flat crook which can be added to the basic F instrument . 
Some years ago, a TRIPLE horn was invented, with THREE layers of tubing , the F and B flat sides, plus a third side piccolo F horn which sounds an octave above the F horn . Small horns in high F also exist , and this is called "descant " horn . 
The triple horn is ideal for playing the terrifyingly high first horn part of the Schumann "Konzertstuck for 4 horns and orchestra ". But it's got so much tubing requiring removal to empty condensation . 
In brass instruments , when you seeplayers emptying the valves, it's not alive, but actually water which condenses in the instrument as air flows through it . 
One advantage of the Vienna horn is the way it's designed to concentrate the condensation in one spot, so you don't have to empty a lot of valves . 
A single F horn has beautiful tone in the middle register but is extremely difficult to pokily with accuracy in the high register . The smaller B flat horn is more easy to play in the high register ,because the high notes are not as close together on the harmonic scale as with the F horn. However, it's not considered to have a good a tone in the middle register . You get the best of both worlds with the double horn . 
It plays in F , but has a fourth valve which is operated by the thumb that switches the instrument on to the B flat side . The F tubing is on the top of the valve system,, and the B flat tubing lies under it . This also gives the player a much wider possibility in fingerings, as the same pitch can be played with different valves or valve combinations . But some fingerings also cause faulty intonation on a particular pitch, so players avoid these . 
The so-called "compensating " horn is a double horn which does not have two separate layers of tubing and which is designed to enable the player to switch between F and B flat with LESS tubing . Some players prefer them because they are somewhat lighter than a double horn and easier to hold and carry because of this .


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

What horn would a principal player use for Haydn Sym #51 in Bb?? This is altissimo stuff, frequently going to high Bb concert (half-step higher than Schumann "Konzertstuck", or "Symphonia Domestica")....


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I've been playing horn since 1984 and always used a double, except in period instrument performances in which case I use a "natural" hand horn. Honestly, I prefer the hand horn for anything written before 1900. It is a personal preference though and I totally see why there is variation of preferences.

FWIW, the only time I've regularly seen Bb and F parts written out is in American marching band music, because some marching bands use mellophone pitched in Bb. Personally, I think it's cruel and unusual punishment for horn players to have to play a Bb mellophone during marching season and switch to a concert horn pitched in F, (it's one reason I became a drum major in the marching band so I didn't have to play those embouchure-destroying mellophones from Hades).


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

French horn player here too. I learned horn using F horn at first, but have since used only double horn. All French horns my high school had in stock were B Flat horns. I find that it allows us to be more precise with our pitches in the higher registers since the fingerings are more defined when engaging the B flat horn. Regardless, a good portion of French horn repertoire is written for different pitches other than F or B flat (E, G, C, etc), so a good player should have a lot of experience in transposing the sheet music.

Never played on a natural horn like those pre-1900 styles horns mentioned by Olias. I have had some experience playing a mellophone before and they are very funny sounding. Had one experience where my horn was in a repair shop and the conductor had me take out a mellophone and play a horn part. Thing was so loud they had to tell me to put it away haha.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually, the music of 19the century composers such as Wagner, Bruckner, Dvorak et al was written for valved horns , although the double horn did not appear until the very end of the 19th century .


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I meant to write "saliva ", not alive . My bad. Just noticed this mistake .


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