# Walkure vs Siegfried...............



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Might as well do this one too. 

I go Siegfried 

You?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

lol I haven't listened to any of the last three, having had so much difficulty with Rheingold I figured it wouldn't be worth my time. I keep being tempted back, though - Wagner's partisans are so articulate in their certainty that he was great. I dunno. I'll keep at it!


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

Again, for sentimental values I'm going with Walkurie, but the act 2 of Siegfried is much too awesome to be put into words!


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> lol I haven't listened to any of the last three, having had so much difficulty with Rheingold I figured it wouldn't be worth my time. I keep being tempted back, though - Wagner's partisans are so articulate in their certainty that he was great. I dunno. I'll keep at it!


In my first listen of the Ring I couldn't get past the first scene in Das Rheingold. If it mattered, it was one of Levine's recording. But 20 years later, I bought Böhm's Die Walküre and that brother-sister thing really grabbed my attention. I thought Theo Adam's Wotan was rather good. But I absolutely did not fully appreciate this opera until I watched it with subtitles. So my advice is to watch the opera (either Die Walküre or Das Rheingold) first before listening.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

Siegfried. The last act is just too good.


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Siegfried. Love the Mime and Siegfried back and forth at the beginning.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

badRomance said:


> In my first listen of the Ring I couldn't get past the first scene in Das Rheingold. If it mattered, it was one of Levine's recording. But 20 years later, I bought Böhm's Die Walküre and that brother-sister thing really grabbed my attention. I thought Theo Adam's Wotan was rather good. But I absolutely did not fully appreciate this opera until I watched it with subtitles. So my advice is to watch the opera (either Die Walküre or Das Rheingold) first before listening.


Believe me, I've tried that - not many times, but more than twice. Got to try something else.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

_Die Walkuere_. Mime is an obnoxious character who should have been finished off sooner, and some of the motivations and movements in the plot of Siegfried don't quite make sense. For instance:

1. Mime makes a statement about stealing the fragments of Siegmund's sword, whereas earlier we are told he had been given them by Sieglinde. This is an error caused by the meshing of two drafts of the poem.

2. The Wanderer tells Mime that his head will be forfeit to him who does not know fear (the only possible forger of the sword), yet Mime still goes about having the sword forged after having made a clumsy plan to get around this rather explicit warning. In the original poem, _Young Siegfried_, this is worked out better because the Wanderer's warning is more cryptic--there he tells Mime to avoid babbling foolishly. Mime can more logically disregard this vague warning and have the sword forged, while the warning perfectly explains Mime's death--Siegfried, having tasted dragon's blood, now makes sense of Mime's murderous babbling and kills him in disgust. In the final version, this logical mirroring of the warning and the cause of Mime's death is lost.

3. The Wanderer speaks about the race of giants envying of the Nibelung's power, and therefore taking the gold. This contradicts the final version of _Das Rheingold_--the giants were there not a race but merely a pair, and they did not take the gold, but the gods did, to make with it a substitute payment instead of Freia, whom the giants had preferred. There is no mention there of the giants envying the Nibelung's might, nor did they know about the gold till the gods told them of it. This is likewise caused by errors in meshing different drafts.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The so-called 'hero' of Siegfried is an absolute pain, a bully and finally a murderer who kills an unarmed (albeit malevolent) dwarf in cold blood. None of the characters is at all pleasant - although that could apply to most of Wagner. The libretto is misguided in that the first two acts are nearly all male (apart from the Woodbird) so the whole effect is vocally rather monotonous. Added to which Wagner appeared to be running out of steam a bit after the first two operas so that the first two acts are not that inspired. Of course, the third act reveals vastly more inspiration, but it's just a pity we have to sit through much of the first two.
Hence I prefer Walkure.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I agreed with various points in DavidA's post...until the last 4 words...because despite the valid points he does make, I like Siegfried loads more than Walkure.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Siegfried is the first opera in the Ring cycle that I listened to in its entirety. I think it's still my favorite, though Die Walkure definitely takes a close second.

Highlights:
-Siegfried's entrance in Act I
-The sword-forging scene
-The "forest murmurs" sequence
-Siegfried meets Brunnhilde

These scenes really do it for me. I also like the part where Mime calls after Siegfried as he's leaving in Act I - he calls his name several times in quick succession, and it makes me laugh.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Celloman, I think that you're maybe easily amused?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The Ring has sometimes been described as a giant operatic symphony ; Das Rheingold is the first movement,
Die Walkure is the slow movement, Siegfried is the scherzo ,albeit a very long scherzo ! , and Gotterdammerung the grand
finale . 
Siegfried does not kill Mime in cold blood but in self defense, as he was going to give him a sleeping potion
and them kill him so he could take the ring and the treasure for himself . Unlike Trayvon Martin, he deserves to die !


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

it's no accident of composition that Act 3 of Siegfried is so powerful.
Wagner, by his own admission was burned out with the ring by the time he was in the middle of composing Siegfried. He famously stated that he laid the character down in the forest for a few years, he went onto compose Tristan and Meistersinger before returning to the composition of Siegfried. he was completely refreshed and the Act 3 proves this.
Siegfried is a very difficult one to like these days, as there is no one, at the moment, really capable of singing the title role.
Walkure is the stand alone opera, it is produced much more than any of the other Ring operas.
However Siegfried is special.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Pip said:


> it's no accident of composition that Act 3 of Siegfried is so powerful.
> Wagner, by his own admission was burned out with the ring by the time he was in the middle of composing Siegfried.


The whole thing should have ended with the defeat of Wotan. Goetterdaemmerung is an anti-climax, dramatically if not musically, since once Wotan's spear is broken and his power therefore at a end, the arc of the story is complete. All the melodramatic charades of Goetterdaemmerung--the possibility of perhaps recovering equilibrium, false hopes for restoration, is nothing but a long suspension of the destruction which was inevitable with Wotan's fall. Of course many of the incidents are emotionally moving and the music is excellent, but there is no dramatic reason for them since everyone is irrevocably doomed by the events Act 3 of Siegfried.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

DavidA said:


> The so-called 'hero' of Siegfried is an absolute pain, a bully and finally a murderer who kills an unarmed (albeit malevolent) dwarf in cold blood.


Unarmed dwarf? Mime already launched his deadly weapon: the poison draft. The idea of killing someone who tries to kill you is very much in tune with ancient tales.



> The libretto is misguided in that the first two acts are nearly all male (apart from the Woodbird) so the whole effect is vocally rather monotonous.


I feel it sets the whole thing up for Brünnhilde's awakening. The dark soundscape that Siegfried lived in is finally lifted. That's why I think Brünnhildes that don't have brightness in their voice make a performance become a huge disappointment.


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## starlightexp (Sep 3, 2013)

For me Siegfried is where the whole of The Ring hits it's high. I love it from start to finish. The forging song is forever going though my brain. I know that Walküre is the most beloved but for me it's Siegfried all the way. Here is where I feel we start to really see the payoff of the first two parts as the music is complex, melodic and just glorious. The weight of the story starts to set in as well as we see where things must lead to in the end.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

To be honest I am not a big fan of Act I of either. The question and answer game between Mime and Wotan is like watching paint dry, and a lot of Act I of Walkure is rather slow. Act II of Siegfried is sublime albeit cheesy and Act II of Walkure is both intelligent and heartfelt. Act III of Walkure is simple ecstasy while Act III of Siegfried is profound.

I will give it to Walkure.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

badRomance said:


> Unarmed dwarf? Mime already launched his deadly weapon: the poison draft. The idea of killing someone who tries to kill you is very much in tune with ancient tales.
> .


Yes, but real heroes would at least want a proper fight.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

Love them both, but I certainly give the crown here to Die Walkure. The splendours of the score - particularly Wotan's monologue, the 'annunciation of death' and the final scene - are irresistible.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Logos said:


> Mime makes a statement about stealing the fragments of Siegmund's sword, whereas earlier we are told he had been given them by Sieglinde


no contradiction, he simply let the truth slip out.



Logos said:


> The Wanderer speaks about the race of giants envying of the Nibelung's power, and therefore taking the gold. This contradicts the final version of _Das Rheingold_--the giants were there not a race but merely a pair, and they did not take the gold, but the gods did


no contradiction either, for Wotan puts the blame on the giant 'pair'.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

sharik said:


> no contradiction, he simply let the truth slip out...no contradiction either, for Wotan puts the blame on the giant 'pair'.


Those are original interpretations, but I don't think they are plausible for the following reasons:

As for the first point, I've never read a synopsis which interprets Mime as actually having stolen the sword. They all say Mime was given the fragments. Further, in the final draft we have, it would make no sense for him to have stolen what the dying Sieglinde would have had no use for, and what she would have desired to leave with her son. She gave him her son, why would he therefore have to steal the fragments which would naturally accompany her son.

As for the second point, why would the Wanderer concoct a rather elaborate lie for Mime whom he knew would shortly be dead?

The ultimate proof that these are simply errors is in the textual history of the ring which is well documented. In those first drafts, Mime _did_ steal the fragments and the Giants _were_ an entire race and they _did_ know about the gold and originally desired it as payment rather than Freia. What we have here are simply the remnants of previous drafts which Wagner failed to revise in accordance with later changes in other areas.

This is nothing to Wagner's discredit--shaping the the vast materials of the myths while keeping everything consistent was a great challenge. One can make these mistakes appear consistent by twisting the words in strange ways but this is really a futile Procrustean effort. What is surprising is that there aren't more errors. Besides, even Homer nods.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Logos said:


> I've never read a synopsis which interprets Mime as actually having stolen the sword


honestly speaking, i cannot remember where he admits to having stolen it, although i've watched _The Ring_ million times already.



Logos said:


> why would the Wanderer concoct a rather elaborate lie for Mime whom he knew would shortly be dead?


its not a lie, its his belief.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

sharik said:


> its not a lie, its his belief.


In that case, it cannot be his belief that the _race_ (not pair) of giants acquired the gold from Alberic after having desired it as payment all along because they envied the Nibelung's power derived from the hoard. That is what he tells Mime.

What he told is the story of the original draft, in which the Giants and the Nibelungs (led by Alberic with his hoard) had been in a kind of war/rivalry. This was later cut out, leaving only this remnant in the Wanderer's story. In that original version, the Giants built the castle for the gods, so that the gods would steal the gold from their powerful rival and give it to them as payment. In the final version, this payment is simply an ad hoc, improvised substitute for the preferred Freia.

Loge does not even appear in the first sketch because everyone already knew about Alberic and the gold. His function as messenger was unnecessary. In the final draft, the pair (changed from an entire race) could not have "long envied" that of which they (and the gods) had no knowledge till Loge told them of it.

The only explanation is that Wotan is either lying (which would be inexplicable and which I do not believe), or that Wagner has made an understandable mistake in making complicated story materials match up with the final version, which is what the evidence shows.

Mime's murmuring about having stolen the sword makes no sense at all. It's just another mistake from the earlier version. In the final version, the dying Sieglinde gives Mime her child to rear him, and tells him that he is to be called Siegfried. Naturally, he would have been given the sword fragments, and this is what he tells Siegfried later. Why should he have stolen the fragments when he was given the boy and told what to name him? Naturally Sieglinde would have wanted him to have the sword, too.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

sharik said:


> honestly speaking, i cannot remember where he admits to having stolen it


It comes in Act I, after Wotan has asked his third question. "who shall re-forge Notung from the fragments?". In his panicked response, Mime spills the beans: "Verfluchte Stahl, daß ich dich verstohlen" ("accurséd steel that I stole"). I've always taken this to be Mime accidentally coughing up the truth, and it still works for me on that basis. It's only Wotan who gets to hear this, after all. Presumably, Siegfried went to his pyre still believing that his mother had given Mime the broken sword.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The so-called 'hero' of Siegfried is an absolute pain, a bully and finally a murderer who kills an unarmed (albeit malevolent) dwarf in cold blood. None of the characters is at all pleasant - although that could apply to most of Wagner. The libretto is misguided in that the first two acts are nearly all male (apart from the Woodbird) so the whole effect is vocally rather monotonous. Added to which Wagner appeared to be running out of steam a bit after the first two operas so that the first two acts are not that inspired. Of course, the third act reveals vastly more inspiration, but it's just a pity we have to sit through much of the first two.
> Hence I prefer Walkure.


I think you're being unduly harsh on the opera, and well, Siegfried was not so much evil as he was misguided. I think being raised by a demented, belligerent dwarf would somehow mess you up a little bit, and perhaps warp your moral compass. Besides, god and heroes in mythology are rarely ever likeable, look at the Greek gods for example, they were all pretty huge a s s holes, doesn't make the stories less gripping.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> It comes in Act I, after Wotan has asked his third question. "who shall re-forge Notung from the fragments?". In his panicked response, Mime spills the beans: "Verfluchte Stahl, daß ich dich verstohlen" ("accurséd steel that I stole"). I've always taken this to be Mime accidentally coughing up the truth, and it still works for me on that basis. It's only Wotan who gets to hear this, after all. Presumably, Siegfried went to his pyre still believing that his mother had given Mime the broken sword.


From whom did he steal it? The dying Sieglinde? Then we must also take it that he stole the infant Siegfried, too. If she had willingly given the boy, why would she retain the sword fragments, necessitating Mime's theft? But if Mime kidnapped the boy, how did he know to name the boy Siegfried? He would have to have been told by Sieglinde, when she was willingly giving him the boy to rear.

Mime's theft of the sword is simply one of several contradictory errors in the Ring, and as I explained in more detail in a post above this is proven by an examination of the original drafts.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

As much as I love the Ring, I think it's a well-nigh impossible task to defend the character of Siegfried. He may have improved after learning fear, but we get to se very little of him post-Brunhilde when he's not enchanted, which makes it difficult to say.

He strikes me very much like the Parsifal of Act 1, with an unlovely mean streak thrown in for good measure (at least Parsifal feels bad about the swan: Siegfried would have had it plucked an on a BBQ before Gurnemanz had a chance to berate him, and he'd no doubt have responded by kicking that venerable knight fair in the vestments!)

Unlike Parsifal, we don't really get to se him once he's grown.

All that said, for me the complexity of character is one of the things that makes the Ring endlessly fascinating.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Logos said:


> From whom did he steal it? The dying Sieglinde? Then we must also take it that he stole the infant Siegfried, too.


Indeed, and that would still make sense even if - and I don't doubt you - the truth is that this all came about through a mistake on Wagner's part. A happy accident, perhaps, that still "works" even if one assumes Mime to be a liar and a thief - which is entirely consistent with his character, after all.

It's not too much of a stretch to suggest that Mime actually did away with Sieglinde, once he'd cottoned on to the Wälsung connection and understood the destiny of her child:

"Those pieces are kept by a cunning smith who knows that, only with Wotan's sword will the brave and stupid child, Siegfried, slay the dragon"


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Indeed, and that would still make sense even if - and I don't doubt you - the truth is that this all came about through a mistake on Wagner's part. A happy accident, perhaps, that still "works" even if one assumes Mime to be a liar and a thief - which is entirely consistent with his character, after all.


Then the story of Sieglinde's telling Mime to name the boy Siegfried must also be a lie. How then did he know the name? I don't think any reconciliation of these errors can ever be quite airtight, and I doubt the effort of inventing scenarios to reconcile them is worth it, although it can be an amusing pastime. None of this destroys the emotion of the drama of course, and so it does work in the most important sense.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Logos said:


> Then the story of Sieglinde's telling Mime to name the boy Siegfried must also be a lie. How then did he know the name?


It doesn't have to be a lie. Sieglinde could have told Mime this - perhaps one of her last mistakes, at least in my imagined back-story. Don't forget that it's only "now", when Siegfried has grown into a young adult, that Mime tells Siegfried of his mother and the sword... and even then, it's under duress.


> I doubt the effort of inventing scenarios to reconcile them is worth it.


If one accepts that Mime is a conniving liar - any dissenters? - then there's really not much effort involved.


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