# Which composers go to heaven?



## Lunasong

As I mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I've recently finished reading _Good Omens_ by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. The book's two main protagonists, Aziraphale the angel and Crowley the demon, work together to avert the Apocalypse because they are rather fond of life on Earth. There is a lot of mention of music in the book, from Crowley's fondness for Queen, to Vivaldi and Handel. Early in the book is a curious dialogue:

_
"We'll win of course," (Aziraphale) said.

"You don't want that," said the demon.

"Why not, pray?"

"Listen," said Crowley desperately. "How many musicians do you think your side have got, eh? First grade, I mean."

Aziraphale looked taken aback. "Well, I should think-" he began.

"Two," said Crowley. "Elgar and Liszt. That's all. We've got the rest. Beethoven, Brahms, all the Bachs, Mozart, the lot. Can you imagine eternity with Elgar?"

Aziraphale shut his eyes. "All too easily," he groaned.

"That's it then," said Crowley, with a gleam of triumph. He knew Aziraphale's weak spot all right. "No more compact discs. No more Albert Hall. No more Proms. No more Glyndbourne. Just celestial harmonies all day long."

"Ineffable," Aziraphale murmured._

My question is: Why did only *Elgar* and *Liszt* go to heaven? The book doesn't give a clue and neither does any on-line exposition of the book. What would be your reason? Who would you choose to go to heaven (my obvious choice is JSB...)


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## MoonlightSonata

I would certainly choose Bach.
For hell, BTW, I would choose the infamously devilish Paganini.

Yes, I know, they're clichés.


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## Morimur

You can bet Wagner is pretty thirsty right now. -- Tee-hee!


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## violadude

It depends on which religion we are talking about and which denomination of that religion.


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## KenOC

MoonlightSonata said:


> I would certainly choose Bach.
> For hell, BTW, I would choose the infamously devilish Paganini.
> 
> Yes, I know, they're clichés.


A very early cliché! from Wiki: "A week later, on 27 May 1840, Paganini died from internal hemorrhaging before a priest could be summoned. Because of this, and his widely rumored association with the devil, the Church denied his body a Catholic burial in Genoa. It took four years and an appeal to the Pope before the Church let his body be transported to Genoa, but it was still not buried. His remains were finally laid to rest in 1876, in a cemetery in Parma."


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## ahammel

Lunasong said:


> My question is: Why did only *Elgar* and *Liszt* go to heaven?


Because the universe is run along very weird lines in Good Omens.

Elgar gets to go, I suspect, in order to set up the joke about "an eternity with Elgar". Pratchett and Gaiman are both English, and may be a bit overexposed to him due to national pride. Liszt just sounds like he was chosen to be weirdly incongruous, and perhaps for the irony of the composer of the Mephisto Waltzes being one of two composers in heaven. (Liszt was quite personally devout, though, so who knows).


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## Kieran

Mozart's music comes _*from *_heaven. We don't know whether Wolfie joined it or not up there, after his absurdly early death... :tiphat:


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## Manxfeeder

There are a lot of pre-1600's composers in heaven. Ockeghem should be there, Obrecht, and Victoria at least, with Hildegard. Definitely Claude Goudimel; he was an actual martyr. I'm too lazy to type the rest.

But if Anton Bruckner isn't there, I'm leading an expedition to get him. Assuming I'm there, of course. If not, make sure one of you leads the way, and when you pull him up, maybe I can hang on to his coattail.


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## violadude

So now that we know which composers went to heaven, I ask, which composers reached Nirvana?


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## hpowders

OP: The one's who don't try and cheat their publishers and the one's who don't deliberately attempt to screw up their brother, sister-in-law and nephew's lives.
The one's who bathe. The one's who don't leave music scores all over the floor.

Missa Solemnis INDEED!!


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Missa Solemnis INDEED!!


Now c'mon, you got the guy all wrong. I can explain all that! Well, some of it. :tiphat:


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Now c'mon, you got the guy all wrong. I can explain all that! Well, some of it. :tiphat:


He has had his day in court already I'm sure.

Liberace, a good boy, is playing a beautiful 2009 Bechstein. In his spare time, he watches The Sopranos on a 55 inch plasma TV with a fantastic all-purpose remote.

Beethoven is playing a small unrestored Walter fortepiano. In his rare minutes away from the keyboard, he is permitted to watch reruns of "I Love Lucifer" on a 13 inch black and white Dumont console with no remote.

Catch my drift?


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## yushuisz

I would say Bach as well.


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Beethoven is playing a small unrestored Walter fortepiano. In his rare minutes away from the keyboard, he is permitted to watch reruns of "I Love Lucifer" on a 13 inch black and white Dumont console with no remote.


Nah, St. Peter let him in on a waiver because he was a huge fan of the Serioso.


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## brianvds

Gliere's in heaven - he composed a harp concerto, after all. 

But who knows. Perhaps composer reincarnate instead. If they were bad, they come back as worms or something. If they were good, they come back as software engineers, so they can make some money for a change.


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## ahammel

brianvds said:


> Gliere's in heaven - he composed a harp concerto, after all.
> 
> But who knows. Perhaps composer reincarnate instead. If they were bad, they come back as worms or something. If they were good, they come back as software engineers, so they can make some money for a change.


_William Shakespeare's in my cat
He chases bits of fluff
John Milton's in my goldfish
But I never liked his stuff
I'm thinking that Franz Kafka
Really came back as a bug
And I hope Andrew Lloyd Webber
Will stay underneath my rug
_


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## MoonlightSonata

hpowders said:


> OP: The one's who don't try and cheat their publishers and the one's who don't deliberately attempt to screw up their brother, sister-in-law and nephew's lives.
> The one's who bathe. The one's who don't leave music scores all over the floor.
> 
> Missa Solemnis INDEED!!


I think if Beethoven got to heaven he would have immediately lodged a complaint with God about his hearing.


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## KenOC

BTW Beethoven's concerns about his sister-in-law were quite warranted. She paraded her lover in front of her husband as he lay dying. And she was imprisoned for stealing jewelry and, worse, trying to blame a servant for the theft. Nevertheless, about 1824 when she was impoverished, Beethoven gave her quite a sum of money he could ill afford.

He was anxious to keep nephew Carl away from her. But of course he was probably an even worse guardian, something difficult for him to recognize. In the end, Carl served in the army, married, and named his only male child Ludwig van Beethoven.


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## sharik

Lunasong said:


> Why did only *Elgar* and *Liszt* go to heaven?


why all of the sudden we should take the word of only one character from some unimporatant book on it?


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## Überstürzter Neumann

Here are some, at least.


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## dgee

Some more recent ones might include Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein and (at some time in the future) Stephen Sondheim


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## brianvds

MoonlightSonata said:


> I think if Beethoven got to heaven he would have immediately lodged a complaint with God about his hearing.


And when Karl eventually got there, he found Ludwig immediately taking over full control of his afterlife.


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## Ingélou

Since Jesus went around with some pretty dodgy characters and reclaimed them, I'm hoping that they'll *all* get there!
In particular, I'm looking forward to witnessing the scene - since God lives in an Eternal Present - where the Church Authorities who denied Paganini Christian burial get to see him leaping in at the pearly gates! :lol:


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## Piwikiwi

A lot of composers were quite awful people, like Debussy who hit his wife.


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## sharik

Piwikiwi said:


> A lot of composers were quite awful people, like Debussy who hit his wife.


not an obstacle for going to Heaven, because God once said 'the wife shall fear her husband'.


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## Richannes Wrahms

violadude said:


> So now that we know which composers went to heaven, I ask, which composers reached Nirvana?


That one is easier. The answer is Bartok.


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## Ingélou

Piwikiwi said:


> A lot of composers were quite awful people, like Debussy who hit his wife.


Not an obstacle for going to Heaven if he was sorry and made his peace with God.



sharik said:


> not an obstacle for going to Heaven, because God once said 'the wife shall fear her husband'.


This is a seventeenth-century translation. The Hebrew word for 'fear' in such sayings, e.g. fear of God, is better translated in modern English as 'respect' or 'revere/ stand in awe of'.
I doubt any wife would respect a husband who beat her. It's admitting that he can't communicate or convey his point in any rational manner.


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## Piwikiwi

Richannes Wrahms said:


> That one is easier. The answer is Bartok.


Or Kurt Cobain *Ba Dum Tsss*


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## PetrB

They're all in heaven because they were composers, daring, or needing, to write music vs. opting out instead for those professions which are more certain of bringing in a cozy and reliable income, that goes for the worst of them as composers as well as the least of them as human beings -- not that I have any truck with, or care at all, about any of those sweetly endearing very human wishes and fantasies about a conscious afterlife, that is, but if there be a heaven, any and all artists have a free direct VIP full-treatment pass.


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## sharik

Ingélou said:


> I doubt any wife would respect a husband who beat her. It's admitting that he can't communicate or convey his point in any rational manner.


hmm, but what if the wife just refuses to be rational and carries on with debauchery for example?


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## PetrB

brianvds said:


> And when Karl eventually got there, he found Ludwig immediately taking over full control of his afterlife.


:lol: _*Hilarious!*_ :lol:
_______:tiphat:


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## Ingélou

sharik said:


> hmm, but what if the wife just refuses to be rational and carries on with debauchery for example?


Let them sort it out between themselves: the bible gives no general permission for wife-beating.

The point is, nobody can judge who's going to heaven or not. 
But in a lighter vein, I think Biber will definitely be there, because his sonatas are so celestial.


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## PetrB

sharik said:


> why all of the sudden we should take the word of only one character from some unimportant book on it?


Well, son, for the same reason we accept the idea that there is a heaven and hell as put forth by one character in another popular work of fiction.


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## Kieran

sharik said:


> not an obstacle for going to Heaven, because God once said 'the wife shall fear her husband'.


Just so long as she locks the bathroom door, right?


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## elgar's ghost

View attachment 60073
[/QUOTE]

That's actually Berlioz demanding to know why the hell he wasn't featured on that silhouette.


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## Kieran

elgars ghost said:


> View attachment 60073


That's actually Berlioz demanding to know why the hell he wasn't featured on that silhouette.[/QUOTE]

Who was the geezer on piano? Bach?


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## Guest

Piwikiwi said:


> Or Kurt Cobain *Ba Dum Tsss*


I'm glad you took the hit for that one!


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## elgar's ghost

^
^

I'd say so.  The wig contingent is, I think, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Gluck and Mozart.


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## Jobis

sharik said:


> hmm, but what if the wife just refuses to be rational and carries on with debauchery for example?


I take it you're not familiar with the book of Hosea?


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## sharik

PetrB said:


> Well, son, for the same reason we accept the idea that there is a heaven and hell as put forth by one character in another popular work of fiction.


well daddy, point taken, but teh Bible is not a fiction, its a *document*.


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Nah, St. Peter let him in on a waiver because he was a huge fan of the Serioso.


Nope. He's more a fan of the andante comodo from Mahler's Ninth.


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## hpowders

sharik said:


> well daddy, point taken, but teh Bible is not a fiction, its a *document*.


How do you account for all the different writing styles throughout the bible? Conflicting events among the gospels?

J.S. Bach should be in heaven playing his shiny new harpsichord, gift of...you know....


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## violadude

Incoming heated religious debate, right on cue.


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## violadude

sharik said:


> well daddy, point taken, but teh Bible is not a fiction, its a *document*.


I have a dream journal where I document all my dreams. I hope all of those didn't actually happen cause I would definitely be toothless by now if it were the case.

Damn tooth falling out nightmares.


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## sharik

hpowders said:


> How do you account for all the different writing styles throughout the bible? Conflicting events among the gospels?


i take them as is without trying to explain every event described there.


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## MagneticGhost

What makes what these people scribbled in their documents any more valid or important than what Viola Dude scribbles in his? Just Askin? 

On Topic. In the spirit of this thread.

All my favourite composers can go to heaven.
Karl Jenkins can go and keep Rutter company downstairs.


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## sharik

MagneticGhost said:


> What makes what these people scribbled in their documents any more valid or important than what Viola Dude scribbles in his?


the history of mankind does.


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## violadude

sharik said:


> the history of mankind does.


Well sorry, as far as we know there is quite a lot in the Bible that isn't exactly accurate history.

I don't care if you believe in God and Jesus and stuff, but there's no pick and choose when it comes to historical facts.


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## sharik

violadude said:


> Well sorry, as far as we know there is quite a lot in the Bible that isn't exactly accurate history.


that might well be said about every history book known to date.


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## violadude

sharik said:


> that might well be said about every history book known to date.


Uh, no?

I mean, it might if there is a discovery made that turns what we know about history upside-down.

But as of now, there are indeed history books that are more accurate than the Bible is. I'm not sure if we even know whether or not the authors of the Bible intended the majority of it to be considered accurate history.

Edit: I'm sorry if I offend any Christians by my comments. I'm honestly not intending to attack your faith, I'm only trying to defend history as we know it today.


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## sharik

violadude said:


> there are indeed history books that are more accurate than the Bible is.


and which ones?


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## violadude

sharik said:


> and which ones?


For example...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Oxford-History-Ancient-Egypt/dp/0192804588

Anyway, sorry for the thread derailment.


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## hpowders

I wonder if there's a separate tonalist section apart from the atonalist section in Heaven?

Or did God take care of that problem simply by ingeniously designing Heaven apart from Hell?

I wonder.....


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## sharik

violadude said:


> http://www.amazon.com/The-Oxford-History-Ancient-Egypt/dp/0192804588


written by an Anciet Egyptian going by the name of Ian Shaw?


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## Kivimees

sharik said:


> that might well be said about every history book known to date.


The history books when I went to school certainly were works of fiction.


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## Ingélou

The stories that probably aren't true are more entertaining than the real stuff - Walter Raleigh's cloak, Alfred and the cakes, Shakespeare's death hastened by falling into a ditch on his way home from the pub...!*

(Or even better, this one, in the words of Wiki: 
While in London, Shakespeare may have had affairs with different women. One anecdote along these lines is provided by a lawyer named John Manningham, who wrote in his diary that Shakespeare had a brief affair with a woman during a performance of Richard III.

Upon a time when Burbage played Richard the Third there was a citizen grew so far in liking with him, that before she went from the play she appointed him to come that night unto her by the name of Richard the Third. Shakespeare, overhearing their conclusion, went before, was entertained and at his game ere Burbage came. Then, message being brought that Richard the Third was at the door, Shakespeare caused return to be made that William the Conqueror was before Richard the Third.

The Burbage referred to is Richard Burbage, the star of Shakespeare's company, who is known to have played the title role in Richard III. While this is one of the few surviving contemporary anecdotes about Shakespeare-it was made in March 1602, a month after Manningham had seen the play -some scholars are sceptical of its validity.)


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## violadude

sharik said:


> written by an Anciet Egyptian going by the name of Ian Shaw?


If your contention is that only history recorded by the people alive when the history was taking place can be accurate then I would say you need to learn more about how people recorded history back then. It wasn't very accurate. Most documents from ancient times that were intended to be historical documents are either intertwined with the local mythology (just look at the various accounts written of Julius Ceaser, for example) or highly propagandistic (some nations are known to have not recorded their failures because they were embarrassing).


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## violadude

Kivimees said:


> The history books when I went to school certainly were works of fiction.


This is true. School textbooks are not very good examples of accurate historical record as they tend to be written with a nationalistic bias.


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## Morimur

Stop taking second-hand information (that most of the world spoon-feeds you) as fact and do THOROUGH research before coming to ill-informed conclusions. For those who think they're well informed -- you're not even close.

For those who are truly in search of TRUTH about the Christian Faith and Bible:
http://www.reasons.org/

You really don't need to check your common sense and logic at the door, though both are in actuality, rarities nowadays.


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## violadude

Morimur said:


> Stop taking second-hand information (that most of the world spoon-feeds you) as fact and do THOROUGH research before coming to ill-informed conclusions. For those who think they're well informed -- you're not even close.
> 
> For those who are truly in search of TRUTH about the Christian Faith and Bible:
> http://www.reasons.org/
> 
> You really don't need to check your common sense and logic at the door, though both are, in actuality, rarities nowadays.


I'm sorry, I can't take seriously any website that tries to argue that evolution is false.

Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to argue against the existence of your god or the legitimacy of your faith here, just the historical accuracy of your holy book.


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## Morimur

violadude said:


> I'm sorry, I can't take seriously any website that tries to argue that evolution is false.
> 
> Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to argue against the existence of your god or the legitimacy of your faith here, just the historical accuracy of your holy book.


It's quite alright; I can't take evolution seriously.


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## violadude

Morimur said:


> It's quite alright; I can't take evolution seriously.


Cool, I'm glad we can still be E-friends.


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## pianississimo

Liszt was a shameless adulterer so, priest training or not, he won't be there. Beethoven drank and Chopin lived in sin. If heaven has no Chopin then it isn't heaven.


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## Jobis

Edit : Off topic


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## Ingélou

In the spirit of the thread - 
in heaven, the *Baroque Composers* have their own palatial gold-roofed concert hall, 
right next to the beautiful crystalline chalet of the *musicologists*, 
where :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: may be seen dancing on the head of a pin...


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## mmsbls

This started as a fun and funny thread. Discussions not related to music or composers and focusing solely on religion are inappropriate here as they often lead to deleted posts, infractions, and closed threads.


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## Jobis

I feel like Xenakis wrote pretty celestial music. Some of the brassy, orchestral stuff reminds me of all the verses about angels playing their trumpets in revelation.

Not to mention in Schoenberg's Moses und Aron... the music of the burning bush feels like a foretaste of the beatific vision, though I expect for some it sounds like the music of Hades.


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## hpowders

I'm not sure which composers get to heaven but I know which keyboard players are assured of getting there:

those who play Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven on the instruments these great composers wrote for.


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## GreenMamba

pianississimo said:


> Liszt was a shameless adulterer so, priest training or not, he won't be there.


Unless he asked for and received forgiveness before his death. As Ingelou said above, you just never know.


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## aajj

Bartok was a man of great integrity. From what i've read, he was openly critical of the Fascist tendencies in Hungary during the 1930s and only left his homeland, for the U.S., after his mother died. I contrast him with composers and conductors who remained in Germany during the Nazi years; Bartok refused to give concerts in Germany during those years.


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## EdwardBast

GreenMamba said:


> Unless he asked for and received forgiveness before his death. As Ingelou said above, you just never know.


Didn't he spend like the last decade of his life atoning?


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## PetrB

sharik said:


> the history of mankind does.


The history of mankind, at least since those books were first written, includes _the fact_ that the majority of mankind thinks those books are the myths of a minority culture, which they are... they do get quite a bit of respect as good and sometimes great antique literature, though.


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## PetrB

Kieran said:


> That's actually Berlioz demanding to know why the hell he wasn't featured on that silhouette.


Well, that silhouette thingie is the work of a German, so what would you think to expect?


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## PetrB

sharik said:


> well daddy, point taken, but teh Bible is not a fiction, its a *document*.


LOL. and the universe, earth, man and just everything was created in seven days.

But... if so, you must have some idea of which composers did, or did not, get in to heaven?


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## ArtMusic

Lunasong said:


> As I mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I've recently finished reading _Good Omens_ by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. The book's two main protagonists, Aziraphale the angel and Crowley the demon, work together to avert the Apocalypse because they are rather fond of life on Earth. There is a lot of mention of music in the book, from Crowley's fondness for Queen, to Vivaldi and Handel. Early in the book is a curious dialogue:
> 
> _
> "We'll win of course," (Aziraphale) said.
> 
> "You don't want that," said the demon.
> 
> "Why not, pray?"
> 
> "Listen," said Crowley desperately. "How many musicians do you think your side have got, eh? First grade, I mean."
> 
> Aziraphale looked taken aback. "Well, I should think-" he began.
> 
> "Two," said Crowley. "Elgar and Liszt. That's all. We've got the rest. Beethoven, Brahms, all the Bachs, Mozart, the lot. Can you imagine eternity with Elgar?"
> 
> Aziraphale shut his eyes. "All too easily," he groaned.
> 
> "That's it then," said Crowley, with a gleam of triumph. He knew Aziraphale's weak spot all right. "No more compact discs. No more Albert Hall. No more Proms. No more Glyndbourne. Just celestial harmonies all day long."
> 
> "Ineffable," Aziraphale murmured._
> 
> My question is: Why did only *Elgar* and *Liszt* go to heaven? The book doesn't give a clue and neither does any on-line exposition of the book. What would be your reason? Who would you choose to go to heaven (my obvious choice is JSB...)


Only composers who wrote beautiful music that please the gods go to heaven. Heavenly pure and heavenly simple.


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## dgee

Messiaen, of course


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## elgar's ghost

PetrB said:


> Well, that silhouette thingie is the work of a German, so what would you think to expect?


True, but then I remember that the artist did a another one for when Brahms entered heaven, and one of the figures might just be Berlioz.


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## DeepR

Scriabin. Again? Yes, because he was born on Christmas day and died on Easter (old style dates system). 

/thread


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## Haydn man

In answer to the OP Which composers go to heaven?
Dead good ones I think


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## KenOC

Heaven or Hell... Some composers like to load the dice when they get of an age, like Beethoven and his Missa. Others start much earlier and, even so, don't quite make it. As St. Peter said, "Well Wolfie, it's written here that you were a potty-mouth who wasted his time with beer and skittles. But if you'd finished that Requiem, we could talk. Well, you didn't. The down elevator is behind you, to the left. Next!"


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## Ingélou

Yeah, but he *meant* to finish it...


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## DeepR

Handel was too lazy to go all the way to heaven, so he simply brought heaven to earth with his music:


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## KenOC

Ingélou said:


> Yeah, but he *meant* to finish it...


As my grandmother used to tell me at every opportunity, "The road to Hell..." I'm sure you know the rest!


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## Taggart

*This started as a fun and funny thread. Discussions not related to music or composers and focusing solely on religion are inappropriate here as they often lead to deleted posts, infractions, and closed threads.*


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## hpowders

Okay, fine.

J.S. Bach in heaven.

Niccoló Paganini, NOT!!!


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> Only composers who wrote beautiful music that please the gods go to heaven. Heavenly pure and heavenly simple.


That's a horrific thought. You think that people should be sentenced to damnation for not writing good music?


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## Ingélou

Will the writers of pieces praising angels - Michael Haydn, Gabriel Mass & Biber, Guardian Angel Passacaglia - be accused of bribery by the keeper of the pearly gates?


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## Haydn man

Sounds to me like all the fun guys might be in the other place


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## KenOC

Ingélou said:


> Will the writers of pieces praising angels - Michael Haydn, Gabriel Mass & Biber, Guardian Angel Passacaglia - be accused of bribery by the keeper of the pearly gates?


Kind of depends on whether the bribes were accepted...


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## Polyphemus

Well Mahler is certainly in Heaven If he could wangle the Vienna State Opera he could get in anywhere.


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## PetrB

Debussy dies, and goes to heaven. While he is still at the gate, awaiting St. Peter's finishing the formalities of the bureaucratic paperwork always involved in the procedure, Debussy espies in the distance an enormously tall wall which appears to stretch endlessly across the horizon, and he asks St. Peter, "Hey, Pete, what's _that?_"

Pete then tips his head toward the direction of the wall, and says, "Oh, that?" That's for Wagner and a small handful of other German composers who we keep on the other side of that wall. They like to think they're the only ones here."


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## Superplacebo Sundae

Aziraphale and Crowley make it quite clear that their respective masters give them credit for things that the humans did entirely on their own.
Quite clearly, Mozart himself was divine, needing no more help from God than the Big Bang did.


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## SONNET CLV

Which composers go to heaven?

The good ones.


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## Pugg

SONNET CLV said:


> Which composers go to heaven?
> 
> The good ones.


But most people have different views, how about that


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## Abraham Lincoln

Which composers go to heaven?

The dead ones.


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## Arsakes

The good dead ones.


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## Arsakes

Oh wait a minute...
Is PertB among those users who passed away in 2015?


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## Fugue Meister

Arsakes said:


> Oh wait a minute...
> Is PertB among those users who passed away in 2015?


I don't know but I certainly hope not. At any rate his last post was February of last year, that would be a shame he was a really insightful poster here, even if he was something of a curmudgeon... PetrB if your out there you are missed.


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## Chronochromie

PetrB is alive and well.


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## Abraham Lincoln

Arsakes said:


> Oh wait a minute...
> Is PertB among those users who passed away in 2015?


Not sure, but I think ComposerOfAvantGarde was one of them.


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## Abraham Lincoln

Arsakes said:


> The good dead ones.


Bread, Eggs, Breaded Eggs


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## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Not sure, but I think ComposerOfAvantGarde was one of them.


No - he just got banned. (If you were serious.)


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## SiegendesLicht

Morimur said:


> You can bet Wagner is pretty thirsty right now. -- Tee-hee!


Ah - the Christian gloating.

I believe he is enjoying a good beer in Walhalla right now, side by side with his beloved king, and the real Siegfried - whoever he might be - and his ancestors. And who knows, maybe Bach is also there. The lord of Walhalla is not a jealous God after all, he receives all who are after great wisdom and great beauty, even if they used it to serve another one.


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## Guest

SiegendesLicht said:


> Ah - the Christian gloating.
> 
> I believe he is enjoying a good beer in Walhalla right now, side by side with his beloved king, and the real Siegfried - whoever he might be - and his ancestors. And who knows, maybe Bach is also there. The lord of Walhalla is not a jealous God after all, he receives all who are after great wisdom and great beauty, even if they used it to serve another one.


Walhalla has good beer? Where's the application form please?!


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## arpeggio

Based on my failed attempts I would not even make it into hell.


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## SiegendesLicht

dogen said:


> Walhalla has good beer? Where's the application form please?!


Apart from dying in battle - I wish I could know for sure...


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## Guest

SiegendesLicht said:


> Apart from dying in battle - I wish I could know for sure...


Hmm that's not a good marketing point!


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## SiegendesLicht

dogen said:


> Hmm that's not a good marketing point!


In Europe in the year 2016 it does sound like something extremely difficult to realize, but who knows, maybe in the future it will become our reality again. Just wait and see.


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## hpowders

No composers go to heaven. Just like the rest of us. Heaven is an invention.


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## poconoron

_In my dreams of heaven, I always see the great Mozart gathered in a huge hall in which the great composers reside. Only Mozart has his own suite. _
- (Victor Borge)


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## Fugue Meister

hpowders said:


> No composers go to heaven. Just like the rest of us. Heaven is an invention.


Prove it..... :devil:


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## Polyphemus

Fugue Meister said:


> Prove it..... :devil:


Prove him wrong.

:angel: :angel:


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## hpowders

OP: The ones who write relatively pithy pieces and take mercy on my swollen prostate.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I think Glazunov and Stravinsky are in heaven right now, probably having a nice chat now that the past is behind them. No longer holding onto their bitterness and pride, just being friends.
_
"It really wasn't worth it all, was it now?"
"No, it really wasn't."_


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## Ilarion

Ingélou said:


> Since Jesus went around with some pretty dodgy characters and reclaimed them, I'm hoping that they'll *all* get there!
> In particular, I'm looking forward to witnessing the scene - since God lives in an Eternal Present - where the Church Authorities who denied Paganini Christian burial get to see him leaping in at the pearly gates! :lol:


Amen, Sister Ingelou - Dodgy characters around Jesus are only the tip of the iceberg


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## Abraham Lincoln

I hope JSB is in heaven so I don't happen to run into him after I die. It would be too much for me.


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## manyene

All of them, except for Gesualdo, but he might have been forgiven by now.


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## Sieglinde

What of really bad musicians? Imagine that both Heaven and Hell just goes "nope". Do they become ghosts?


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## Bulldog

Everybody goes to Heaven, even opera composers.


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## Atrahasis

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven.."

"Innocence, Once Lost, Can Never Be Regained. Darkness, Once Gazed Upon, Can Never Be Lost."

"For so I created them free and free they must remain."

― John Milton, Paradise Lost

I like Milton. We as humans are creators of our own paths, of our own heaven and hell. Gods ultimate gift to (fallen) humanity was the *freedom to choose*. We all choose our destinations. And our destines are intertwined, they are the domain of humans. 
Certanly there were malicious and mean composers, I speak about personality not their compositions. By our everyday deeds, we therefor, choose one of the two possible choices. In evil man the hell is already burning in his very soul and mind... even if we cant see that. Greatest Hell is to live with your own evil and misdeeds and even greater hell is to die remembered as a defiled creature. Heaven on the other hand is within all of us, we are from heaven and we are heven. But if we consistently choose to follow other path, well, the door to heaven will then become permanently sealed. Someone said that heaven is an illusion. Thats true. Everything (whole universe) is an illusion but that fact alone isnt enought to make it unreal. Illusions are afterall real. Religion is often metahphorical and cryptic, dont take everything literally.

P.s. For those who want to know more about the theory that the whole universe is an illusion, read about HOLOGRAPHIC PRINCIPLE or theory of zero energy universe or ideas and theories by physicist Nikodem Popławski.


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## Abraham Lincoln

poconoron said:


> _In my dreams of heaven, I always see the great Mozart gathered in a huge hall in which the great composers reside. Only Mozart has his own suite. _
> - (Victor Borge)


That would be very, very, very, VERY unfair. Just saying.


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