# Ludwig van Beethoven-the thread



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Beethoven is one of my favorite composers, and had quite a sad life story behind his music. He suffered many health issues, such as abdominal pains since his 20s, and loss of hearing since the middle of his life, that was almost full in his last decade; he also died aged just 56 and without issue. 
The fact that a deaf man composed music makes me stand in awe; he cut off the stems of his piano and places his head on the resonance house, and just from the vibrations he identified the notes...pretty impressive, isn't it? 
I already made several threads on this forum about his complex interest in women, so I'll skip that and go to the music-for me, he never really died-he became his music.

Post your favorite compositions from this amazing person; here are some of my favorites:


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Please, fix the title of this thread while it's still possible - the name is Lud*w*ig *v*an Beethoven.

Beethoven is my idol and his music was my first passion in classical. I identified with his oeuvre since my childhood (due to Disney's Fantasia), and he was the first composer for me to really explore about a decade ago, when I started my quest to discover classical music. Today, I know about two thirds of his published works, what makes him the classical composer I know better (I still have to work on the WoOs though). I have books on him (the most impressive is Thayer's biography) and love to read about his intense personality. His compositions, particularly the late works, represent a substantial portion of what I consider as the most important, vital music of my life.

The piano sonata No. 17 "Tempest", Op. 31 no. 2 was my favorite among all his piano pieces some years ago. Today I prefer others, but still love it. Follows the link:


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Allerius said:


> Please, fix the title of this thread while it's still possible - the name is Lud*w*ig *v*an Beethoven.
> 
> Beethoven is my idol and his music was my first passion in classical. I identified with his oeuvre since my childhood (due to Disney's Fantasia), and he was the first composer for me to really explore about a decade ago, when I started my quest to discover classical music. Today, I know about two thirds of his published works, what makes him the classical composer I know better (I still have to work on the WoOs though). I have books on him (the most impressive is Thayer's biography) and love to read about his intense personality. His compositions, particularly the late works, represent a substantial portion of what I consider as the most important, vital music of my life.
> 
> The piano sonata No. 17 "Tempest", Op. 31 no. 2 was my favorite among all his piano pieces some years ago. Today, I still love it, but prefer others. Follows the link:


Thank you for correcting me-as much as I admire the German/Austrian culture and heritage (and nothing sexual, but I also think German girls are pretty), I sometimes get confused with names in German, which I do not speak, though I do hope my English is good...is it?

Anyhow, thanks for sharing your opinion, and I'm happy to see I'm not alone in my positive opinions about Beethoven!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Definitely one of my favorite composers. I'll refrain from posting too much, but I'll say this, the Pathétique sonata (no. 8, in C minor) is definitely one of my favorites; obvious choice or not, it's beautiful. These are my two favorite interpretations:











The second movement contains some of the most intense pain in all of his music, despite being in a major key contrasting with the opening and closing movements - I never really bought the "major=happy, minor=tragic" thing anyway.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

No surprise you like Beethoven! There seems to be a consensus view that the three greatest composers of all time are Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven (choose whatever order you like). Even Beethoven's view, two centuries ago, was almost the same. For him, the three greatest composers were Handel, Mozart, and Bach.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Beethoven is simply the greatest composer not named J.S. Bach. The late piano sonatas and string quartets, in my mind, represent the absolute summit of music.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Mods; please move this thread to Composers section.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

As you are probably aware, 2020 is the 250th anniversary of his birth. Many, many orchestras are commemorating this by performing a lot of Beethoven. Some orchestras are doing all nine symphonies. Several groups I play with are doing at least a couple. Not everything he wrote is all that good, but no composer was great all the time, but his success rate is sure high. I can't help but feel "been there, done that". I recall the 200th anniversary quite well and all the recordings that came out like that monstrous DG set of LPs of Beethoven Complete. We'll probably see more unnecessary symphony cycles recorded.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Beethoven is simply the greatest composer not named J.S. Bach. The late piano sonatas and string quartets, in my mind, represent the absolute summit of music.


Well said. I don't necessarily agree with the concept of a "summit" of music, but if I had to name the pieces that belong there, I would have given a similar selection (those pieces plus a few of Bach's works and maybe a couple by Brahms and Mozart, if permissible). Anyway, Bach and Beethoven are my clear #1 and #2 for "greatest of all time" as well. As for the greater one out of those two... I don't know; I'd probably choose Bach if pressed, but tomorrow I might go the other way.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like him. But there are lots of composers I would rather listen to, to be honest.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There is a very interesting book called ' by Beethoven's Hair' which is well worth a read

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethovens...d=1551872943&sr=8-1&keywords=beethoven's+Hair


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

He has long been, for me, musically and biographically, the most interesting person in music.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well said. I don't necessarily agree with the concept of a "summit" of music, but if I had to name the pieces that belong there, I would have given a similar selection (those pieces plus a few of Bach's works and maybe a couple by Brahms and Mozart, if permissible). *Anyway, Bach and Beethoven are my clear #1 and #2 for "greatest of all time" as well. As for the greater one out of those two... I don't know; I'd probably choose Bach if pressed, but tomorrow I might go the other way.*


It's also very difficult for me to choose, but I think that today I would still go with Beethoven. There's a poll on *Bach versus Beethoven* here on TC, and Johann Sebastian is winning for just one vote at this moment.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)




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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree that LVB was one of the best ever. My favorite is "The Tempest" as well.

He was a Romantic, so he was fully human, and was aware of the "mystery" of music, which defies reason and has no patience for sterile rationality; he took life by the horns and rode it for all he was worth. His life would make a good movie.


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I agree that LVB was one of the best ever. My favorite is "The Tempest" as well.
> 
> He was a Romantic, so he was fully human, and was aware of the "mystery" of music, which defies reason and has no patience for sterile rationality; he took life by the horns and rode it for all he was worth. His life would make a good movie.
> 
> View attachment 114006


Isn't Beethoven mainly seen as a composer of the Classical period, and not a romantic? I don't have enough knowledge of music to defend either view, but most people seemed to agree with Charles Rosen on that.


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

FleshRobot said:


> Isn't Beethoven mainly seen as a composer of the Classical period, and not a romantic? I don't have enough knowledge of music to defend either view, but most people seemed to agree with Charles Rosen on that.


He is generally viewed as the composer who spanned the gulf between the Classical and Romantic. His Eroica (3rd) has been called the first Romantic symphony. Certainly the 6th and 9th strike me as Romantic, as well as many of his piano sonatas and concertos.

That said, his late string quartets ended his life in a more Classical vein.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

From the opening post of *Ludwig van Beethoven-the thread *



Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Beethoven ... never really died-he became his music.


Nicely said.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> He was a Romantic, so he was fully human, and was aware of the "mystery" of music, which defies reason and has no patience for sterile rationality; he took life by the horns and rode it for all he was worth. His life would make a good movie.





FleshRobot said:


> Isn't Beethoven mainly seen as a composer of the Classical period, and not a romantic? I don't have enough knowledge of music to defend either view, but most people seemed to agree with Charles Rosen on that.


This is the issue I have with the semantics. Baroque/classical/romantic are terms posterity created and none of the composers themselves thought "since this is the Romantic Era, which I'm living in, I must compose Romantically, like a true Romantic with the true spirit of Romanticism." or anything like that. It might just be our imagination that composers themselves thought that way. Certain composers like Beethoven, Hummel, Schubert are actually hard to tell what era they belonged in. 
In the BBC Mozart documentary, Charles Hazlewood expressed his view that, somewhat paradoxically, Mozart can be seen as a Romantic. Sonata in A minor K310 is his personal expression of anguish felt at the death of his mother, Symphony in G minor K550 is his personal expression of anguish felt at the death of his daughter etc. I think if he had time to discuss Rondo for piano K511, he would have said there's Romanticism in it as well. 








While I don't necessarily agree with his view, it made me wonder, "what's the point in us going great lengths discussing all this semantics?" 
Also I've heard comments like Mozart's choral music sounds more personal than Bach's, which made wonder "does that mean music started getting more and more Romantic, starting with the Classical Era?" I remember there's even a thread discussing whether Haydn was Baroque or Classical. Even Mozart wrote a ton of baroque-inspired compositions, he was born before Handel died. Does that make him half-baroque?
I know some people like to get wordy and write tons of paragraphs discussing their own views on philosophy of Romanticism, Classicism in music and stuff, but I don't see much meaning in doing that. Even if I do, I usually like to keep it brief. Regardless of whether it's Romantic or Classical or Baroque, it's the craftsmanship and historical significance (in terms of influence and impact) of the music that matter the most. (At least to me) Because someone can argue a work like Sonata in A minor K310 is a Romantic piece, others may disagree. But I ask "So what's the point? So what if Beethoven was a Romantic (or not). Does that really matter?" "Would it be better just to not worry about the semantics altogether and just call them 17th/18th/19th century music?"

http://www.interlude.hk/front/the-passions-of-bach/
_"we tend to forget that Bach was a human being. And for me, the key to understanding the greatness of Bach is to recognize that what propels his music, what infuses every note, is his very human passion. Whether it's sacred music or secular, it's always passionate. Indeed, it's important to remember that the emotions that find their expression in religion, or in religious texts and musical settings, are but variants of the feelings common to all people: love, longing, fear, devotion, peace, excitement, expectation, comfort, joy, and so forth."_


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I won't surprise anyone by saying he's my favourite composer. Those 9 symphonies are (IMO) the best set of symphonies ever written by anyone. The 7th is still my favourite symphony of all time.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

My favorites are 3 and 6. Though as a set I like the piano sonatas better than the symphonies. Definitely the greatest set of piano sonatas ever written by far and away. They're all so good, and there's 32 of them. I could listen forever, especially with how many complete cycles are out there. These days, the only pianist I want to hear playing Beethoven is Artur Schnabel. He is a total master of Beethoven, though I suppose his passionate and less-than-completely accurate style of playing probably irks some to the point of preferring another player (to say nothing of the 1930s standards of recording).






I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone here how great he was. But I can't get enough. What are some of our other favorite cycles of the sonatas? Or preferred players with regard to individual sonatas?

As for the symphonies, my favorite cycle is the 1963 Karajan cycle. Though I haven't heard many. I also like Kleiber's 5th and 7th, which I understand are both very popular. What other symphony cycles do we like?


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I have a pairing of two sonatas on a Connoiseur Society LP (defunct, but performances probably reissued in a different combination by someone else). I'm sure these youtube performances are the same ones.

Ivan Moravec.

Together I consider these among of the finest Beethoven sonata interpretations I have ever heard. The pinnacle. They are quiet, not showy, performances. There's such physical mastery that they are able to become cerebral, in a good way. Also there's a play of light and shadow there.

Sonata 26 in E flat major "Les adieux", Op. 81a
















Sonata no. 15 Opus 28 ("Pastorale")


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> This is the issue I have with the semantics. Baroque/classical/romantic are terms posterity created and none of the composers themselves thought "since this is the Romantic Era, which I'm living in, I must compose Romantically, like a true Romantic with the true spirit of Romanticism." or anything like that. It might just be our imagination that composers themselves thought that way. Certain composers like Beethoven, Hummel, Schubert are actually hard to tell what era they belonged in.
> 
> Also I've heard comments like Mozart's choral music sounds more personal than Bach's, which made wonder "does that mean music started getting more and more Romantic, starting with the Classical Era?" I remember there's even a thread discussing whether Haydn was Baroque or Classical. Even Mozart wrote a ton of baroque-inspired compositions, he was born before Handel died. Does that make him half-baroque?
> I know some people like to get wordy and write tons of paragraphs discussing their own views on philosophy of Romanticism, Classicism in music and stuff, but I don't see much meaning in doing that.


I agree, hk, that trying to shoehorn specific pieces of music into our stylistic categories is often impossible and useless. Beethoven is probably the prime example of this in music. But there is still great value - to some of us, at least - in discussing what we mean by such designations as "Baroque," "Classical," "Romantic," etc., and in studying individual works and composers for ways in which they exhibit certain stylistic traits or expressive goals. Having names for qualities helps us see those qualities, especially when they appear in unexpected places. "Romanticism," for example, was recognized as a literary phenomenon not much past the middle of the 18th century, and represented a facet of the culture in counterpoint with "Classicism" as we know it, although it didn't attain dominance until the 19th century. I do think that we see Romantic tendencies in Mozart, and for that matter earlier in C.P.E. Bach. Similarly, "Classical" concepts of music's form and purpose didn't die out during the Romantic age, as the music of Brahms and his many followers, standing against the more thoroughgoing Romanticism of Berlioz and Wagner, shows.

I happen to be one of those people who "get wordy and write tons of paragraphs discussing their own views on philosophy of Romanticism, Classicism in music and stuff," and I think it's a very useful endeavor. Besides, it's fun. :tiphat:


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

@Open Book, I love Moravec, but am not at all familiar with his Beethoven. Listening to this Les Adieux now, and I think his light touch is pretty much perfect for it. I will look more into his recordings. I'm a big fan of his Mozart.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> @Open Book, I love Moravec, but am not at all familiar with his Beethoven. Listening to this Les Adieux now, and I think his light touch is pretty much perfect for it. I will look more into his recordings. I'm a big fan of his Mozart.


Flamencosketches, I'm ashamed to say I never followed up and bought more recordings by Moravec. I wasn't rich enough to buy a lot of LPs in those days. Plus I probably thought it was an accident of the perfect match of performer and music that wouldn't be repeated. I did hear Moravec perform live but I couldn't tell you what the program was it was so long ago.

Which Mozart has he done that you might recommend, concerti or sonatas?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Don't want to derail this thread too much further, but for one, I highly recommend this CD:

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Piano-Concertos-Nos-14/dp/B07D9W33T4

With concerti nos. 14, 23, and 25. It's some of the first Mozart I've ever really listened to and still among my favorites.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> @Open Book, I love Moravec, but am not at all familiar with his Beethoven. Listening to this Les Adieux now, and I think his light touch is pretty much perfect for it. I will look more into his recordings. I'm a big fan of his Mozart.


If you haven't heard them already, you might enjoy Moravec's Chopin Nocturnes. I feel they are something special like food for a gourmet or connoisseur.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I've heard some of them and liked what I was hearing; I gotta get around to listening to the whole set.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Re Beethoven being Classic or Romantic. He was just "Beethoven". In the classic, widely used text, A History of Western Music by Donald J. Grout, that's how he approached it. Beethoven was a force unto himself. He learned from the classicists, used their ideas, but took off in whole new directions. Some said it this way:"Beethoven, the man who set music free." He also pointed the way forward for the Romantics. I was surprised a few years ago to learn that back in the 19th c there were orchestras organized for the purpose of playing the might 9 symphonies. His music remains the basic core of any orchestra's repertoire for good or bad. I never tire of playing nos. 1, 5, 6, 7 or 9. No. 3 is a bear but so much fun. I avoid the 4th (ask any bassoonist why).


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Thank you for correcting me-as much as I admire the German/Austrian culture and heritage (and nothing sexual, but I also think German girls are pretty), I sometimes get confused with names in German, which I do not speak, though I do hope my English is good...is it?
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for sharing your opinion, and *I'm happy to see I'm not alone in my positive opinions about Beethoven*!


From which universe are you to think you would be alone in that opinion? :tiphat:


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

:lol: 

I listened to one of the Razumovsky quartets for the first time about an hour ago, the E minor I believe. I liked it, but I'm not totally sold on his quartets just yet. Don't know what I feel is missing.


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## skim1124 (Mar 6, 2019)

Speaking from limited knowledge, if I could have the music of only one composer, it'd be Beethoven. His music has the variety, the beauty, the full range of emotions to satisfy me for a lifetime. Symphony No. 5, piano sonata No. 8 and 30, violin concerto--those come to mind first as pieces that I can lose myself in.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> :lol:
> 
> I listened to one of the Razumovsky quartets for the first time about an hour ago, the E minor I believe. I liked it, but I'm not totally sold on his quartets just yet. Don't know what I feel is missing.


It can take a lot of time to appreciate Beethoven's quartets. A lifetime, even.

I bought a complete set of the quartets and played it over and over on a long road trip. That worked for me.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> :lol:
> 
> I listened to one of the Razumovsky quartets for the first time about an hour ago, the E minor I believe. I liked it, but I'm not totally sold on his quartets just yet. Don't know what I feel is missing.


Your soul is missing ;-)


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Yeah yeah I get it, everyone is better than me cuz they like the quartets.  I just started getting into classical music a couple months ago, gimme a break :lol:

I heard the Missa Solemnis for the first time a few days ago. Really enjoyed it. On a bit of a mass kick for some reason lately.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Don't worry about it. The E minor is the most difficult of all the middle quartets. Just listen to what you want and don't worry about what other people say.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> :lol:
> 
> I listened to one of the Razumovsky quartets for the first time about an hour ago, the E minor I believe. I liked it, but I'm not totally sold on his quartets just yet. Don't know what I feel is missing.


 With Beethoven, never settle for just one recording. He's bigger than that. Check out others. The Quartets have been performed by everyone from monkeys on a skateboard to elephants on a pogo stick.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Ludwig van Beethoven-the thread *

A lot of compliments here.
I'll have to look into this guy.
Beethoven, you say?
He must be a pretty good, from all these comments.
Is he any relation to that movie dog?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Ludwig van Beethoven-the thread *
> 
> A lot of compliments here.
> I'll have to look into this guy.
> ...


I wouldn't get too excited, Sonnet. He's OK but he ain't no Take That. I doubt he'll ever knock out a tune as good as 'Million Love Songs'. I hear he's deaf too. How can a deaf bloke write music? Ridiculous!


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I have to ask something-did Beethoven lose his hearing completely or almost completely, and at what phase of his life?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

If I'm not mistaken, it went gradually over a couple decades but was pretty much totally gone by the end of his life. He started losing it sometime after he wrote his first symphony, early 1800s. So almost all of the symphonies and a huge chunk of his other works were completed while his hearing was impaired.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> If I'm not mistaken, it went gradually over a couple decades but was pretty much totally gone by the end of his life. He started losing it sometime after he wrote his first symphony, early 1800s. So almost all of the symphonies and a huge chunk of his other works were completed while his hearing was impaired.


This is one thing that makes me stand in awe.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The guy is just a flash in the pan. He'll never have any musical longevity like Showaddywaddy or the Rubettes. Once the cute doggie movies have been forgotten he'll fade away to obscurity like that Bowie bloke or Frankie Mercury (or whatever he was called). The fella hasn't even got a tribute band! Even the Osmonds have got a tribute band and that's why Crazy Horses will be remembered in hundreds of years time, long after Beethoven and his Moonlight Sinatra has faded into musical obscurity.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Merl said:


> The guy is just a flash in the pan. He'll never have any musical longevity like Showaddywaddy or the Rubettes. Once the cute doggie movies have been forgotten he'll fade away to obscurity like that Bowie bloke or Frankie Mercury (or whatever he was called). The fella hasn't even got a tribute band! Even the Osmonds have got a tribute band and that's why Crazy Horses will be remembered in hundreds of years time, long after Beethoven and his Moonlight Sinatra has faded into musical obscurity.


:lol:



Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> This is one thing that makes me stand in awe.


Agreed. Don't know how he did it, especially considering the way he composed: very meticulously, a lot of trial, error, and revision. That's one thing if you can hear what you're writing, listen for any flaws, and correct it afterwards. But in his case... yeah. I don't know how he did it.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Why did Beethoven die without issue? I know he never married, but why? Did he at least have a "girlfriend" at one point or another?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Why did Beethoven die without issue?


Actually, Beethoven took issue with dying. As most of us do.
According to his close friend Anselm Hüttenbrenner, a witness to the composer's death and one who provided a vivid description of the event, Beethoven's last recorded words were "Pity, pity-too late!", as the dying composer was told of a gift of twelve bottles of wine from his publisher. 
I for one wish Beethoven could have finished that wine, and a couple or, better yet, twelve more compositions at least. Alas!
Beethoven died in his house in Vienna in 1827, on the 26th of March. Perhaps we can all utilize the next three days contemplating how to personally honor the composer. I will likely listen to a recording of his String Quartet in F (Op.135), his last significant composition, first performed on the 23rd of March, 1828. Anniversaries to ponder, as I write this on the 23rd of March.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> ...I will likely listen to a recording of his String Quartet in F (Op.135), his last significant composition, first performed on the 23rd of March, 1828.


I think that would be the new finale to the Op. 130 quartet, which is quite beefy and very good indeed. It was composed after the Op. 135 between September and November 1826 "and is thus the last substantial piece of composition Beethoven completed before his death."


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

flamencosketches said:


> Yeah yeah I get it, everyone is better than me cuz they like the quartets.  I just started getting into classical music a couple months ago, gimme a break :lol:
> 
> I heard the Missa Solemnis for the first time a few days ago. Really enjoyed it. On a bit of a mass kick for some reason lately.


I have yet to really pursue quartets. With Beethoven I have focused on the symphonies, piano sonatas, violin sonata, masses and stage works, including Fidelio. Missa Solemnis is wonderful! Love the solo violin part.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Why did Beethoven die without issue? I know he never married, but why? Did he at least have a "girlfriend" at one point or another?


Google is your friend.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Actually, Beethoven took issue with dying. As most of us do.
> According to his close friend Anselm Hüttenbrenner, a witness to the composer's death and one who provided a vivid description of the event, Beethoven's last recorded words were "Pity, pity-too late!", as the dying composer was told of a gift of twelve bottles of wine from his publisher.
> I for one wish Beethoven could have finished that wine, and a couple or, better yet, twelve more compositions at least. Alas!
> Beethoven died in his house in Vienna in 1827, on the 26th of March. Perhaps we can all utilize the next three days contemplating how to personally honor the composer. I will likely listen to a recording of his String Quartet in F (Op.135), his last significant composition, first performed on the 23rd of March, 1828. Anniversaries to ponder, as I write this on the 23rd of March.


"Dying without issue" means dying without having children. Not that Beethoven had "issues" in the contemporary sense of the word with dying itself.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Open Book said:


> "Dying without issue" means dying without having children. Not that Beethoven had "issues" in the contemporary sense of the word with dying itself.


I think he knew that. Issue, though, is a legal term found in wills and is not normally how the average would refer to children. Imagine meeting a couple for the first time and asking, "So, do you have any issue?" They would be confused, perhaps offended (taking issue in the sense of a complaint or problem).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

IIRC, Clouds Weep Snowflakes is from Israel, so English is not his first language. It's probably what google translate came up with.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I think he knew that. Issue, though, is a legal term found in wills and is not normally how the average would refer to children. Imagine meeting a couple for the first time and asking, "So, do you have any issue?" They would be confused, perhaps offended (taking issue in the sense of a complaint or problem).


It didn't sound that way to me when I first read his reply. Some people's first language is not English, so you never know.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> IIRC, Clouds Weep Snowflakes is from Israel, so English is not his first language. It's probably what google translate came up with.


Are you saying my English isn't good, or that I use more poetic words rather than everyday modern English? I have a hard time believing someone here other than myself speaks Hebrew...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

As was pointed out by a native English speaker (which I'm not either), "issue" in this sense is a legal term, which would not be used in this context,


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Open Book said:


> It didn't sound that way to me when I first read his reply. Some people's first language is not English, so you never know.


Hence, it would be helpful for ALL members of TC to fill out the Location part of their profile so it displays on the left of their post. Otherwise I haven't a clue.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> As was pointed out by a native English speaker (which I'm not either), "issue" in this sense is a legal term, which would not be used in this context,


Well, I learned my English from games and books (the Bible <3) rather than everyday chit-chat, so I may not speak/read-and-write like a native, I still use words like "thy/thee" to refer to a person and "privy" for a toilet seat even though these words aren't used in modern English...is that what you meant?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Well, I learned my English from games and books (the Bible <3) rather than everyday chit-chat, so I may not speak/read-and-write like a native, I still use words like "thy/thee" to refer to a person and "privy" for a toilet seat even though these words aren't used in modern English...is that what you meant?


Perforce thou shouldst read divers scrivenings of more current authorship.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The use of an English quite olde
May signal a writer quite bolde.
But is’t delectation
Or just affectation?
Depends on the presence of molde.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Well, I learned my English from games and books (the Bible <3) rather than everyday chit-chat, so I may not speak/read-and-write like a native, I still use words like "thy/thee" to refer to a person and "privy" for a toilet seat even though these words aren't used in modern English...is that what you meant?


I give you a lot of credit for all the effort you have made and it is not wasted. You are doing quite well. Maybe if you come over here for a stay you will pick up on more common English, but that varies considerably by part of the country. They talk differently in the south than the north, in New York and New Jersey, in the upper part of Michigan and Minnesota, and that is just some parts of the east half of the country.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

I'm preparing a thread entitled "Beethoven: Folksong Arrangements" as part up the upcoming 250th anniversary and would like to offer up a preview of a tune with lyrics by Robert Burns.

It's from Opus 108: Twenty-Five Scottish Songs - No. 9 - "Behold, my Love, how Green The Groves"






_"Behold, my love, how green the groves,
The primrose banks how fair;
The balmy gales awake the flowers,
And wave thy flowing hair.

The lav'rock shuns the palace gay,
And o'er the cottage sings:
For Nature smiles as sweet, I ween,
To Shepherds as to Kings.

Let minstrels sweep the skilfu' string,
In lordly lighted ha':
The Shepherd stops his simple reed,
Blythe in the birken shaw.

The Princely revel may survey
Our rustic dance wi' scorn;
But are their hearts as light as ours,
Beneath the milk-white thorn!

The shepherd, in the flowery glen;
In shepherd's phrase, will woo:
The courtier tells a finer tale,
But is his heart as true!

These wild-wood flowers I've pu'd, to deck
That spotless breast o' thine:
The courtiers' gems may witness love,
But, 'tis na love like mine."_


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I give you a lot of credit for all the effort you have made and it is not wasted. You are doing quite well. Maybe if you come over here for a stay you will pick up on more common English, but that varies considerably by part of the country. They talk differently in the south than the north, in New York and New Jersey, in the upper part of Michigan and Minnesota, and that is just some parts of the east half of the country.


That reminds me of something I encountered numerous times-people referring to animals or even Pokémon as "he" or "she"-that seems odd to me, as when I learned English I was taught to only apply gender to humans and all other are to be referred to as "it"...so eventually, I just use poetic English rather than common one? That's what you're trying to say? I love reading the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible, which would obviously require a more poetic tone, as it was translated from the Latin Vulgate about 400 years ago; not to mention I avoid using unstandard words in my everyday Hebrew as well...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> That reminds me of something I encountered numerous times-people referring to animals or even Pokémon as "he" or "she"-that seems odd to me, as when I learned English I was taught to only apply gender to humans and all other are to be referred to as "it"...so eventually, I just use poetic English rather than common one? That's what you're trying to say? I love reading the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible, which would obviously require a more poetic tone, as it was translated from the Latin Vulgate about 400 years ago; not to mention I avoid using unstandard words in my everyday Hebrew as well...


Well we call our dog she all the time. She is part of the family. I had a co-worker who is Moslem and he could not imagine that we keep the dog in the house. Different cultures I guess.

Here is a odd one. I am not sure it is done these days but when I was a kid, a beloved machine (car, motorcycle, etc.) was typically referred to as she. Someone might say of there car when it is newly tuned up, "She's running great" or "She's purring like a kitten."

I was not referring to poetic English but that people tend to speak differently in different regions. For example, I heard that in Minnesota they call a traffic light (signal), a stop-and-go. but not just that, there is also different way of saying things, accents vary. There is some discussion of it *in this article*.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ships are always referred to as "she." Until a few years ago, hurricanes were always given female names. Then political correctness struck.


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## Emperor1955 (5 mo ago)

Littlephrase said:


> Beethoven is simply the greatest composer not named J.S. Bach. The late piano sonatas and string quartets, in my mind, represent the absolute summit of music.


Beethoven the greatest composer is a silly statement. He is a brilliant composer but so is Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Schubert, Reger, Haydn for instance. Composers do not think in best of lists.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Emperor1955 said:


> Beethoven the greatest composer is a silly statement. He is a brilliant composer but so is Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Schubert, Reger, Haydn for instance. Composers do not think in best of lists.


That statement suits me fine, Welcome to the site by the way.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Emperor1955 said:


> Beethoven the greatest composer is a silly statement. He is a brilliant composer but so is Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Schubert, Reger, Haydn for instance. *Composers do not think in best of lists*.


Suits me too. Alas, many classical music enthusiasts seem to like such lists. 

Welcome.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> That reminds me of something I encountered numerous times-people referring to animals or even Pokémon as "he" or "she"-that seems odd to me, as when I learned English I was taught to only apply gender to humans and all other are to be referred to as "it"...





SixFootScowl said:


> Well we call our dog she all the time. She is part of the family.
> [/QUOTE
> It's understandable to call your dog she or he because you know its gender, but some people are careful to call a wild animal they have found in their backyard as "he or she" when they don't know its gender. I think "it" will do for animals of unknown gender. They aren't going to be offended by which pronoun is used.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

A friend of ours who grew up in the Czech Republic said in the old country they refer to all dogs as he and all cats as she. I used to do that as a small child out of ignorance or wishful thinking, but it actually makes things a lot simpler.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Aren't there some effects from languages which apply genders to non-proper nouns?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

fbjim said:


> Aren't there some effects from languages which apply genders to non-proper nouns?


Good question, relevancy how?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

In German the generic term for cat (the species) is the feminine form "die Katze", so unless you know or want to stress that a particular cat is male (Kater) you will use the generic term and the feminine pronoun. I guess that it is similar in many languages where all nouns are gendered. There are also many animals that are neutral gender in German.

When I first came to the US after having learned English only in school and from books, I wondered about how in English people used sometimes feminine pronouns for inanimate things and my host answered: Anything a man can have affections for can become grammatically female. The example he used was "I have to fix the lawnmower, she broke down yesterday".


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