# Dvorak Symphonies



## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

Hello All

I have posted a few times recently and received very helpful replies. I cared for my mother for a lengthy period before she died earlier this year. It has been a slow and long road to try and get back to normal life. I am not there yet and doubt I will ever get back to where I was before Dementia came into mum’s life. Truth be told I am no longer that man. Prior to mum’s developing illness I bought a lot of classical music I did not know. I thought it would give me an interest whilst caring for mum, but her illness was to intense and the music was forgotten.

Recently I have started to explore some of the music. I knew Dvorak’s later symphonies for many years but the earlier ones were new to me. I have found them a surprise package, varied and colourful. Previously Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms and late Mozart symphonies were my sum knowledge of that type of music. I have always loved chamber music so I never showed any interest in symphonies. Now I realise I have most likely cut a lot of great classical music out of my life.

Okay I now have the time to explore classical music more fully. Symphonies by the major composers I can no doubt work through, but it is always pieces off the beaten track that have appealed to me. Can anyone suggest composers who have written respected chamber music who also wrote symphonies, but are off the beaten track as regards widespread popularity. I hope that description makes sense. 

I close in thanking anyone who replies to my query. I recently tried to get a better understanding of Liszt but without success. Not sure why but most of his music just fails to stir my interest. Most likely a dreadful statement but true nonetheless. The above enquiry is based on the need to develop a project this winter. I still have bad days, miss mum dreadfully, the house is so quiet, the winter nights are closing in, etc. I need to find music unknown to me which will hopefully introduce a new love affair into my life, give me a sense of wonder, a connection, etc.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

You mention Dvorak's symphonies but his string quartets and quintets are just as impresive. I love them. If you haven't explored them then you need to. SQs 10-14 are essential listening.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Maybe try some Bruckner? In addition to his symphonies there's also his wonderful string quintet in F major, one of the greatest chamber music pieces of the romantic era.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

SQ 0-9 are hardly essential. I'd say the last three SQ (and the piano quintet) are essential, then 10 and 8,9 and 11 are nice to have. The rest is for dedicated fans of both the genre and the composer, or maybe not even this. 

But as symphonies are the starting point, I mention somewhat overlooked orchestral music by Dvorak. You probably have heard the Slavonic dances but there are also a bunch of Rhapsodies in a similar folksy manner. Then there are 4 late symphonic poems, composed after the 9th symphony (based on often gruesome folk/fairy tales but the music is not too spooky, most of the time: Noonday Witch, Water Goblin, Wood dove, Golden spinning wheel). A bit earlier and more extrovert/fun are the ouvertures Carnival, Otello, My home, Hussites and In nature's realm. 
A compact way to get a lot of these pieces is a twofer with Kubelik on DG.

As companions to the two charming (strings and wind) serenades there are a "Czech" and an "American" suite, both lighter music but very charming and melodic.

Finally, there is the great Scherzo capriccioso and the Symphonic Variations op.78

Altogether about 4-5 discs of more symphonic music from Dvorak, almost as much as the symphonies.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Based on your request for composers 'off the beaten track' who composed both symphonies and chamber music may I suggest a couple of Scandinavian composers who composed both fine symphonies and string quartets along with some other chamber pieces - Carl Nielsen & Vagn Holmboe.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Though not very popular I consider his Piano Cto very good


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm still adding to it but here is my blog on Dvorak:

https://dvorakshack.blogspot.com


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

whispering said:


> ...suggest composers who have written respected chamber music who also wrote symphonies, but are off the beaten track as regards widespread popularity.


Some of the minor composers who wrote a lot of symphonies just happened to write first-class chamber music. Can't really explain why, but writing for small ensembles seems to bring out their best. Whether it's violin or cello sonatas, string quartets, piano quartets and such, there's a wonderful world of comforting, beautiful music. Some composers to look into:

Franz Schmidt: skip the quartets, but the rest of it is sensationally good. The A major, G major and B flat major quintets are just fabulously entertaining and beautiful.

Joachim Raff: the prolific symphonist wrote terrific chamber works. The Tudor label has many of them. The Sinfonietta is great.

Anton Rubinstein: a failed symphonist maybe, but there's some great chamber music. Wikipedia has a complete list. Many of the recordings have come and gone, but well worth seeking out.

Glazunov: I love his symphonies, but dang if his chamber music isn't first-rate too. The string quartets are well worth the time.

Last but not least: Carl Goldmark. This is terrific stuff especially the Piano Quintets. You'll never tire of his beautiful, moving works. 
Ballad for Violin and Piano, Op. 54
Piano Quintet in B-flat major, Op. 30
Piano Quintet in C-sharp minor, Op. 54
Romanze for Violin and Piano
Sonata for Violin and Piano, Op. 25
Piano Trio, Op. 33, No.2
Piano Trio, Op. 4
String Quartet in B-flat major, Op. 8
Suite for Violin and Piano in D major, Op. 11
Suite in A Major for Violin and Piano
String Quintet in A minor, Op. 9


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

This would seem like an ideal opportunity to again highlight politely the earlier Dvorak symphonies, particularly (admittedly in my opinion ) the 3rd and 5th.......


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

whispering said:


> Okay I now have the time to explore classical music more fully. Symphonies by the major composers I can no doubt work through, but it is always pieces off the beaten track that have appealed to me. Can anyone suggest composers who have written respected chamber music who also wrote symphonies, but are off the beaten track as regards widespread popularity. I hope that description makes sense.


My condolences for your mother. Given that the quoted part seems to be your main reason to start the thread, the thread title is rather confusing - as is the choice for the Orchestral Music part of the site. I think it would be more suited for the Classical Music discussion forum, with a title that is better suited. Suggestions?

If I misunderstood your post and you want to have a discussion on the Dvorak symphonies, then it's fine as it is.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

My condolences as well. There have been excellent suggestions already. Mendelssohn also wrote a lot of excellent chamber and orchestral music. Try his Octet, Piano Trios, and SQ. Brahms Chamber Music, particularly his Clarinet works, have always been described as Autumnal and consoling and may fit your present mood.
Janacek 2 SQ are fascinating works. Ralph Vaughn Williams Chamber and Orchestral works may also be a terrific balm


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## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe try some Bruckner? In addition to his symphonies there's also his wonderful string quintet in F major, one of the greatest chamber music pieces of the romantic era.

Dear RobertJTh thank you for your reply to my thread. Please can you give me a little more help. Bruckner wrote a number of symphonies and I have heard conflicting comments about them. Please remember you are replying to a person who has never listened to a Bruckner symphony. When I find a new author to read I try to do so in the order the books were written. I find that helps me to follow how the writer developed over time.

Do you think that would be the best approach with the Bruckner symphonies, starting at number one and moving through them? Or can you suggest a better place to start and explain why. Consider the Beethoven symphonies. As a much younger man I fell in love with numbers 5 and 7, then moved onto the others. If I had started with numbers 1 and 2 things might not have gone so well. Is there a Bruckner symphony which helps a newbie step into his sound world. 

Forgive me if my question seems a little dumb but the more experienced members of this forum can supply less experienced members with so much help along the musical journey. I have found this forum a very friendly place whenever I have posted. My journey into classical music has until recently been very much in the solid well known ground area, but with more time now I am wanting to branch out. It is a bit like a child in an old fashioned sweet shop, confronted by large plastic bottles, with unknown treats inside of them. Piano Quintets are my favourite music form, but I wish to explore wider. My grandfather had an old saying “be careful you do not lose something valuable in the process of finding it”. Select the wrong symphonies first and you may miss out on a hidden untouched gem. I look at the number of Haydn symphonies and wonder where do you begin.

Hope to hear from you but if not please stay safe and well in this wonderful world.


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## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

As companions to the two charming (strings and wind) serenades there are a "Czech" and an "American" suite, both lighter music but very charming and melodic.

Dear Kreisler jr thank you for your informative reply. I had heard the string serenade but the wind one is unknown to me. I must admit the piano quintets and the American string quartet are always welcome to my ears. I understand your comments on the earlier string quartets. But like Schubert I found in that the later ones are so great the earlier numbers get caught out in the shade of what was to come. Then you come up against Beethoven and from the start with opus18 you realise something special is happening.

Any way thank you for taking the time to post a thoughtful reply to my thread.


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## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

Olias said:


> I'm still adding to it but here is my blog on Dvorak:
> 
> https://dvorakshack.blogspot.com


Dear Olias thank you very much for the link. The Dvorak Shack has a lovely homely ring to it. Clearly you are putting a lot of time and effort into the ongoing project. TBH I have enjoyed a charity shop recording of the Dvorak symphonies I picked up on my quick hunt for entertainment before my caring role started few years ago. I need to upgrade but then the issue arises of which recording? I have noted down your CD selection for the complete symphonies. In your opinion is that the best of the complete series CD options, or are there perhaps others ou might suggest as well? Hope you can reply and yes I will from time to time drop by the shack and see what new components you have added. Very best wishes for the future.


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## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Some of the minor composers who wrote a lot of symphonies just happened to write first-class chamber music. Can't really explain why, but writing for small ensembles seems to bring out their best. Whether it's violin or cello sonatas, string quartets, piano quartets and such, there's a wonderful world of comforting, beautiful music. Some composers to look into:
> 
> Franz Schmidt: skip the quartets, but the rest of it is sensationally good. The A major, G major and B flat major quintets are just fabulously entertaining and beautiful.
> 
> ...


Dear mbhaub I do not know where to begin. Thank you for your detailed, informative and very helpful reply. When I posted my thread I hoped for several replies but members of this forum have proven to be generous with their time and quality of reply.

Please can you indulge me a little further regarding the composer Raff. The gentleman clearly wrote a great deal of music. You kindly gave me a thorough introduction to Carl Goldman. Many thanks as this is a composer I had not heard of, which most probably says a lot about my current limited knowledge of classical music. Please could you make some recommendations along a similar line regarding Raff.

I want to fully immerse myself in classical music this winter in general, but I want to start with a few unknown composers to me and really dive in deep. The beauty of classical music to me is it is such a wide and deep ocean of possibilities. I can look forward to many years (hopefully) of exploring it. Replies like yours are really gold dust to relative newbies like me.

I note that you are a senior member. Can I leave you with something to reflect on. People start with a tentative interest in classical music, which grounds itself in the mainstream composers most of the time. Then something changes in your life and a person wants to start to explore more deeply. Are there any historic threads newbies can search under to try and get a road map at the start of that second phase of their exploration of classical music.

I know a bit of an impossible ask as tastes vary so much. What I thought was something like okay you like Brahms piano trios so try this, or Dvorak piano quintet so try this. I stumbled on piano concertos by Brull and Kozeluch, string quartets by Pleyel and Onslow. A comment there, a sentence on a blog, etc. Chance is a fine thing but is there a source you could recommend that I could access? A question asked more in hope than anything else. Any way thank you again for your lovely reply.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I will try to address a few of your points, whispering.

Since you said piano quintet is your favorite form, absolutely check out the performance of Dvorak's Piano Quintet No. 1 with Da Silva, Milstein, and the Busch Trio. For the second, that same group also did a stellar job, or you could try Andreas Haefliger with the Takacs Quartet.

The Slavonic Dances, Series I is a favorite work of Dvorak that does not get much mention around here. I have enjoyed Vaclav Talich with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra and Kubelik with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.

He didn't do so much with symphonies, but Hummel is one of my favorite composers who is not a household name outside of Talk Classical. I love his Op. 87 piano quintet played by the Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet.

Haydn's symphonic output is enormous, so I would start with a manageable section like the Paris symphonies, which are No. 82 through 87. Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic in the 1980's did a fantastic job with all six of them.

A few other composers off the beaten path that I like are Danzi, Kraus, Kozeluch, Cherubini, Donizetti, Crusell, Ries, Alnaes, and Bruch.

The method I use to explore classical music (besides chance things like radio and hearty recommendations) is to branch out from something I have liked. I will pick another work by the same composer or see what other recordings a conductor or performer has made. Mega box sets like 120 Years of Deutsche Grammophon are also fun ways to explore if you can find them streaming or at bargain prices.

My final thought is that it is not a bad thing to start or even stay with the giants. Composers like Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn have incredible depths, and they have survived with such popularity after hundreds of years for good reason. The journey is your own, so find what works for you, and I wish you the best in your explorations.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

whispering said:


> Can anyone suggest composers who have written respected chamber music who also wrote symphonies, but are off the beaten track as regards widespread popularity. I hope that description makes sense.


I read this as a fairly specific request, and without a lot of obvious answers. If I stick to generally pre-WWII, I can't think of many composers with fine chamber works who also wrote 'obscure' symphonies.

Symphonically, you have the canon of the "big nine" Austro-Germans, nearly all of whom are famous for excellent chamber music too: Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven-Schubert-Mendelssohn-Schumann-Brahms-Bruckner-Mahler. Dvorak you covered; Tchaikovsky's symphonies are famous, his chamber music much less so. Same goes for Sibelius, Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams. One man with a foot in both camps is Shostakovich.

Then the field narrows considerably. There are composers with chamber music you may know; Grieg, Faure, Saint-Saens, Borodin, Bartok, Boccherini, Bruch, Telemann - who wrote plenty of chamber music but were very patchy as far as symphonies go.

But honestly, I'd work on the names in the first paragraph, irrespective of how well-known they are. There's plenty of food for the soul there.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

whispering said:


> Symphonies by the major composers I can no doubt work through, but it is always pieces off the beaten track that have appealed to me. Can anyone suggest composers who have written respected chamber music who also wrote symphonies, but are off the beaten track as regards widespread popularity.


Here are some recommendations for well-regarded chamber works and symphonies by a group of folks that are farther off the beaten path than the Haydns and Beethovens and Dvořáks of the world:

*Henri Dutilleux* (1916 - 2013)


 String quartet ("Ainsi la nuit"). Try the Julliard String Quartet on Sony;
 Symphony No. 1. Try Yan Pascal Tortelier on Chandos;
*César Franck* (1822 - 1890)


 Violin Sonata in A major. Try Danczowska/Zimerman on DG;
 Symphony in D minor. Try Pierre Monteux on Sony;
*Bohuslav Martinů* (1890 - 1959)


 Cello Sonatas. Try Starker/Firkušný on Sony;
 Symphony No. 1. Try Jiří Bělohlávek on Onyx;
*Olivier Messiaen* (1908 - 1992)


 _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_. Try Tashi on Sony;
 _Turangalîla-Symphonie_. Try Antoni Wit on Naxos or Riccardo Chailly on Decca;
*Karol Szymanowski* (1882 - 1937)


 _Mythes_, Op. 30 for violin and piano. Try Danczowska/Zimerman on DG or Faust/Kupiec on Harmonia Mundi;
 Symphony No. 4, Op. 60 (Symphonie Concertante). Try Antoni Wit on Naxos or Simon Rattle on Warner.
Overall, the Szymanowski works are my most favorite. I heard the Sinfonia concertante for the first time this year, and I've been drunk on it since.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

whispering said:


> Dear Olias thank you very much for the link. The Dvorak Shack has a lovely homely ring to it. Clearly you are putting a lot of time and effort into the ongoing project. TBH I have enjoyed a charity shop recording of the Dvorak symphonies I picked up on my quick hunt for entertainment before my caring role started few years ago. I need to upgrade but then the issue arises of which recording? I have noted down your CD selection for the complete symphonies. In your opinion is that the best of the complete series CD options, or are there perhaps others ou might suggest as well? Hope you can reply and yes I will from time to time drop by the shack and see what new components you have added. Very best wishes for the future.


Very kind of you to visit. The Suitner cycle is my personal favorite cycle as their are no weak performances, tempos are lively, sound quality is great, and the price is a steal. A lot of people will cite the Kertesz and Neumann cycles which are also good but not my personal favorites. For an individual CD though, the live performance of Dvorak's 8th and 9h by Mackerras is a MUST.


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