# Are most modern conductors frauds?



## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

It has always shamed me to admit that I'm no connoisseur when it comes to conductors. Being that there are so many so called "Maestros" out there to choose from especially when it comes to selection of recording. This is why I love youtube because I can view multiple versions until I find the ones I feel are truly worthy of the composers music… which should be the focus in the first place the music, not having so and so's cycle and so and so's as well.

Okay so yesterday I caught this video on youtube (go figure), and it sort of blew my mind, here it is and I hope you all take a gander if you have the time.






Anyway what do you guys think? Do charlatans abound atop the podium in classical music world? Who are your favorite conductors that aren't 60+ years of age?


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Could I get a precis of the argument without having to stop everything else for an hour?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Yannick Nézet-Séguin is a very good conductor, we have him here in in Rotterdam , he changed the whole style and is now well on his way to the top.
Very nice person also.:tiphat:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm a music student, still in high school, who does aspire to be a conductor but disagree with many aspects of the money-driven corporate nature of classical music media and the recording industry. I've never had a strong interest in recording music, only performing, and this is where the result of a conductor's work lies.

However, I dont actually study conducting. I study composition with a teacher and I do as much research as I can by analysing orchestral scores. The actual conducting is something I learn on the job during the rehearsal of a work. I've rehearsed various student chamber ensembles and orchestras put together by my peers and I for certain projects. I always ask for feedback from musicians about issues of beat clarity, expressive gestures etc. which I take into account and this is what builds my technqiue. I actually learnt the basic arm movements from a book. When I heard in the video about 'conducting classes' which consist of students learning gestures in front of a mirror I have to say I was rather shocked. This is more like regurgitating what has been spoon fed to a student by their teacher about what conducting _looks like_ rather than a student learning how to analyse and interpret a score successfully.

The other point which I wholeheartedly agree with here is the money-driven aspect of being a conductor. I'm absolutely certain that no conductor would say they are in it for the money, but what is really unfortunate is the manipulation made by record companies and the media which hype up certain conductors. Diversity is lost, and I would go as far as saying that it almost monopolises the concert hall, the conductors known to orchestras, whom they hold in high regard and whom they do not. It's a sorry world that we live in, one dictated by corporations effectively controlling everything from politics, education all the way to classical music.

On the other hand, I do believe that there are a number of younger conductors who are producing very insightful readings of standard and new repertoire these days. Yannick Nézet-Séguin has recorded the best Schumann symphony cycle I have ever heard, and this recording was put together from _live_ concerts. I suppose this is evidence that conductors don't actually view concerts as 'rehearsals for the recording session the next day' as the video claimed. Nézet-Séguin has a few vlog entires on YouTube, one of them I think explains the amount of editing which actually goes in to 'live recording' and it was interesting to hear him say that he has to be careful not to lose energy during a patch up session made without an audience. I gathered that for him it's the concert which is the important part.

Conducting is a job which is musinderstood by many audiences, and it does seem, according to the viewpoints expressed in the video, that it is perhaps even being misunderstood by conductors.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It has been said here elsewhere (and better) that the job of a conductor is to know more about music (the individual score, the composer, his oeuvre, performing practice, instrumental playing, etc.) than anyone else in the room, and to bring that knowledge (along with his judgment) to bear on the performance. Do some take that responsibility more seriously than others? Yes.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I've always felt that Zubin Metha is a fraud! So the question is probably correct!

/ptr


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Have to confess that the question is valid. Lenny B and H von K used the podium relentlessly in their life long quest for self promotion. :devil: :devil: :lol: :lol:

:tiphat:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Dudamel is one of the most important conductors of all time.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

SimonNZ said:


> Could I get a precis of the argument without having to stop everything else for an hour?


Sorry mate you'll just have to find the time...

Okay fine. The bottom line is that the job of conductor today has become corrupted to being truly all about money and selling classical music records, not to far off the conspiracy theory diving board but I feel some of you may believe otherwise. They make a good case that most conductors of the day don't know what they should up to and including reading scores incredible as that may seem and the video talks to several "name" conductors who also voice similar opinions (watch out ptr seems like Zubin Metha may not be who you think he is...)


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## Guest (May 22, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> Dudamel is one of the most important conductors of all time.


Ugh........ No.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

I think that's a GOOD thing - it means I have a chance to conduct a major orchestra!



> Who are your favorite conductors that aren't 60+ years of age?


Me!!

OK - Gilbert Kaplan is definitely a fraud.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Steven Kovacevich called conducting "the last bastion of quackery outside the medical profession." Joshua Bell said something similar, but that was before he became a conductor. :lol:


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Sometimes you do see someone get a conducting spot because he's more famous rather than a better conductor. But a conductor also has to be able to bring in the $ - so it's about more than just being a musician.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Polyphemus said:


> Have to confess that the question is valid. Lenny B and H von K used the podium relentlessly in their life long quest for self promotion. :devil: :devil: :lol: :lol:
> 
> :tiphat:


So did many inferior conductors! just those two happened to be rather good at conducting as well!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'm a music student, still in high school, who does aspire to be a conductor but disagree with many aspects of the money-driven corporate nature of classical music media and the recording industry...


Are you suggesting that corporations not be driven by profits, or that they not issue classical recordings?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fugue Meister said:


> It has always shamed me to admit that I'm no connoisseur when it comes to conductors. Being that there are so many so called "Maestros" out there to choose from especially when it comes to selection of recording. This is why I love youtube because I can view multiple versions until I find the ones I feel are truly worthy of the composers music… which should be the focus in the first place the music, not having so and so's cycle and so and so's as well.
> 
> Okay so yesterday I caught this video on youtube (go figure), and it sort of blew my mind, here it is and I hope you all take a gander if you have the time.
> 
> ...


I thought this was a typical belly aching programme made by axe grinding people who are probably envious of success in others.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I thought it was interesting. It is important to note that the video is more than 20 years old. Not that I think things have changed a lot since then, but they aren't talking about Dudamel, etc. I think the only one whose conducting gets called out by name is Sinopoli.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

I think one should see a conductor's rehearsals before reaching a judgement - this is where his work is done.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Conducting is an art as much as a performer performing the score under a conductor. *But a conductor also needs very good people skills * and that is often very, very underrated. As to whether frauds or not, if they are in it for the money only or at least shot to stardom I am sure in the longer term listeners will decide and vote (like we do with any performer and composers too for that matter).


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## Guest (May 23, 2015)

Fugue Meister said:


> It has always shamed me to admit that I'm no connoisseur when it comes to conductors. Being that there are so many so called "Maestros" out there to choose from especially when it comes to selection of recording. This is why I love youtube because I can view multiple versions until I find the ones I feel are truly worthy of the composers music… which should be the focus in the first place the music, not having so and so's cycle and so and so's as well.
> 
> Okay so yesterday I caught this video on youtube (go figure), and it sort of blew my mind, here it is and I hope you all take a gander if you have the time.
> 
> Anyway what do you guys think? Do charlatans abound atop the podium in classical music world? Who are your favorite conductors that aren't 60+ years of age?


You head the thread with word 'modern', but the video spends more time with one or two names from the past, and failing to name many from the present.

Like Pugg, I was impressed with Yannick Nézet-Séguin, and I also like Thomas Sondergard. What I can't tell, however, is whether this is to do with their physical activity on the podium, or something else. I find Valery Gergiev difficult to watch, but I'm happy to listen to his DSCH cycle on TV with the Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra.

I think that, on the whole, I'm too susceptible to reputations (which are not necessarily based on the music) to be able to judge the worth of a conductor.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Are you suggesting that corporations not be driven by profits, or that they not issue classical recordings?


I disagree with the corporate influence on musicians.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Summary:

Video starts out strong, with silhouetted musicians accusing nameless conductors of being disliked / unprepared / and generally not at the level of the highly skilled musicians in any given orchestra.

Splice in some comments from some conductors lamenting the influence of money and record companies, and the resulting star machine that churns out celebrity conductors to generate sales, rather than inspired music.

Segue into prolonged lament over Karajan's obsession / control over his own image. 

Throw in some examples of good conductors. Ponder what the deal was with Toscanini.

Sum things up with ruminations about, just what is required of a good conductor? 

Conclusion: A good conductor doesn't simply know a score technically perfectly. This is only 10 percent of the job. A good conductor is able to elevate the orchestra / music / audience emotionally to an almost spiritual level, delivering the grand social / political / historical essence of the music to an audience that very likely won't know the difference between an inspired performance and a perfunctory one. 

The end

Enjoyed it, although very little evidence is presented to substantiate the claims at the beginning of the video that the world of conductors is filled with Charlitains.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I disagree with the corporate influence on musicians.


Being a bit more specific would be helpful.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Being a bit more specific would be helpful.


Yeah, probably, but I thought I was clearly addressing the very same point made in the video posted....


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

DavidA said:


> So did many inferior conductors! just those two happened to be rather good at conducting as well!


"So did many inferior conductors! just those two happened to be rather good at conducting as well!"

Normally when their ego's were having a day off. :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Polyphemus said:


> "So did many inferior conductors! just those two happened to be rather good at conducting as well!"
> 
> Normally when their ego's were having a day off. :lol:


You take ego out of conducting and there will be very few left. After all, anyone who believes that him waving a stick in front of 100 people will cause them to produce great music must have quite an ego!
John Culshaw said of Joseph Krips that he was "exceedingly vain in a profession where modesty is rare!" :lol:


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