# Bruckner 9 Challenge, COVID-19 Edition!



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Ok, I have too much time on my hands. I should be practicing or composing. But I made this, instead.

What we have are crudely obtained excerpts from the second movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony, from five different conductors and three different orchestras. The excerpts were obtained from CDs that I own, and remain at CD-quality in WAV format. Each excerpt is from the same place in the movement, the Scherzo da capo, for about 1'45". Metadata has been stripped.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hepeu802kg9dt09/AADfOWPP5sJ9AyO30-PCgXFPa?dl=0

Which recording is the creamiest, smoothest, most free of edge?
Which recording is the harshest, most savage, edgiest?

Any other discussion and guessing, concerning conductors, orchestras, interpretive nuances, recording quality, etc., are wholly welcome. Likes, dislikes, mockery of this thread and the job I did excerpting these: all welcome.

I'll post which excerpts came from which recording in a few days.

Disclaimer: obviously, it is foolish to pick a favored performance of a huge Bruckner symphony from a single, 1'45" excerpt. I know that. That's not what we're doing, here.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'll give it a listen later. Nice one, Knorf. I know it's only a short clip but I reckon I can get at least 1 right. Challenge accepted.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I'm in! Will be trying out your samples soon.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Okay, here we go, initial thoughts.

These fragments nicely illustrate the difference not only in performance practices (although I found no glaring discrepancies or conducting eccentricies in most of these short episodes) but mostly the recording and mixing techniques.

A - one of the most tame overall, strings are much lower in the mix. Pizzicato has lost much of its punch. Sounds muddy in places.

B - balance shifted to strings on this one, playing is very lovely. I'd say this sounds very Giulini-like or maybe Rattle.

C - most muscular of the five, listen to those timpani rolls! Also, the balance here slightly favors woodwinds. Very enjoyable.

D - well-balanced recording, brass is put forward slightly but nothing criminal. Also very enjoyable.

E - this recording highlights brass instruments, making it sound harsh and so the least preferable for my ears. Plus has the most "conducting freedom" moments, for example check out the trumpet "crescendo poco a poco" with additional twists and turns. Just not right.

So at the moment my favorites are B, C, D (almost equally), then A then least favorite E.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Only listened to them all once but C&E are making a very positive impression on me (just soundwise) even though E is older and very brass-heavy (American orchestra?) and analogue. Love the pizzicato in C. Will listen again later. It's hard to tell from such a small sample but I do like them all up to now.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

I downloaded, played through headphone amp/DAC, and listened on good headphones:

A - Harsh, would not buy.

B - Best of the bunch. 'Creamy' (your word choice), soundstage BIG, imaging excellent. Sounds like a binaural recording.

C - This would be my 2nd choice. I think the performance in B is better and the sound quality of B is much more to my taste.

D - A decent recording, but the soundstage is very narrow.

E - This sounds like a more recent recording, too closely miced. The forwardness of the brass makes me think it was done in the mixing.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Right, I've listened to all of these about 3 or 4 times so I can make a proper comment.

A - The oldest recording here (?) and the one that like the sound of least. I also have a slight issue with momentum — this doesn't have much! 
B - Rhythmically rock solid and superb playing. Like this one. Sounds like HvK. 
C - This intro to the movement has it all for me. Perfect start. Reminds me of Giulini's 9th.
D - Solid enough but agree with last poster about soundstage and needs bit more drama. 
E - I actually love the in your face brass. A bit brash but certainly exciting. Not that old. Van Zweden?

Nothing bad here but I have a preference for C then B then brassy E (as a wildcard). Would not be remotely surprised if I have some of these.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Just listened to ‘em all! C and E are my favorites - C has a nice rustic dance rhythm and great blended sound with strong, natural brass; while I liked the crisp delineation of textures, nice inner detail, savage momentum, and “Russian” sounding brass in D. A was a bit too choppy, B and D I thought were a tad stiff and metronomic. Fun little exercise, thanks!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Since this seems to be generating little interest, perhaps it's time to divulge the culprits?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Since this seems to be generating little interest, perhaps it's time to divulge the culprits?


Aye, come on Knorf, spill the beans!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I was hoping Heck184 would find a pair of earphones and join us. But no matter.

Would you like a clue? Five conductors, but only three different orchestras.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Knorf said:


> I was hoping Heck184 would find a pair of earphones and join us. But no matter.
> 
> Would you like a clue? Five conductors, but only three different orchestras.


I'm guessing the orchestras are BPO, VPO and..
. Ermmm...

Netherlands RPO. Anywhere near?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Well, you're on the right continent!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Stop farting around and tell us the answers! :scold:


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Too busy listening to Skrowaczewski conduct Bartók. Will respond in a bit.

(Haha, I love that tantrum emoji!)


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Alright, Merl is throwing a tantrum, and we won't wish for him to get hurt, so I will here "spill the beans." 

Disclaimers:
1) It would be unbelievably foolish to rank or choose recordings of a Bruckner Symphony based on a 1'45" excerpt. How one might rank the excerpts applies only to these excerpts.
2) I didn't use any sophisticated software or techniques to rip the tracks or edit them down to the excerpts, just Audacity. 
3) This was all in good fun, and not meant to mean anything, really. As with blind wine tasting, nailing the correct answers is absurdly difficult, even with hints, but it can be an enlightening process.

Here you will find the answers you seek.
I hope they prove interesting!

For the record, my favorite for the recording of the Symphony as a whole, among these five, is Blomstedt. I got the idea to make this challenge because it occurred to me that Rattle in this recording sounds the way people usually accuse Karajan of sounding! And it does look like a couple people thought B was Karajan. Anyway, all five are recordings I would place in the "recommended" category, for various reasons.

Thanks to everyone who participated! Cheers!
:tiphat:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Alright, Merl is throwing a tantrum, and we won't wish for him to get hurt, so I will here "spill the beans."
> :


Pretend hissy-fits are great for goading people into posting. Lol

Wow, I was pretty way out on those but for less than a 2 minute selection it's really not surprising. Totally agree that Rattle out-Karajans HvK on that excerpt. I've got that recording so I'll have to listen again but I did feel the same about some of Rattle's BPO recordings, that he couldn't always escape the ghost of Karajan. Schuricht really surprised me as it doesn't sound that old a recording for the early 60s.. Not heard that one so will check it out. I have the Blomstedt and it's a cracker so not surprised I was impressed (I also have the Karajan and Rattle). I have heard the Harnoncourt before but don't own it but will still check it out. Will see if the Schuricht is on Spotify later and give it a listen. I love that quirky, noisy brass.

Thanks for this, Knorfy. Enjoyed it and it took only 10 minutes out of my day to do (well 30 minutes in all as I listened 3 times).


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Just confirmed that Harnoncourt is not my cup of tea - in Bruckner anyway.
Schuricht - too much conductor idiomacy not in score - major factor that sets me off E.
In fact, Rattle is very satisfying in B9, I own that completed edition and I think the Finale version he chooses for it is the best one out there.
Thanks for setting this up, enjoyed it!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Merl said:


> Schuricht really surprised me as it doesn't sound that old a recording for the early 60s.. Not heard that one so will check it out.


I bought it when it was briefly available on SACD in a two-disc set with No. 8. That No. 8 is also fantastic! But yes, the sound impressed the heck out of me, too. It's an excellent recording, and they did a tremendous job with the remaster. I listen to these quite often.

(It's a hybrid SACD, so what you heard of course was ripped from the CD layer. )


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm gonna see if I can listen to that later.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Wow! Talkclassical raises the stakes in controversy. I love it !

Only one way the solve this. FIGHT!!!!


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