# BEST symphonies #2



## mtmailey

WHO HAS THE BEST SYMPHONIES?this time it is DVORAK & TCHAIKOVSKY.


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## CyrilWashbrook

nightscape said:


> I'm now anxiously awaiting the Dvorak v. Tchaikovsky poll!


That didn't take long.

I am looking FORWARD to seeing a PENDERECKI v TCHAIKOVSKY poll NEXT.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Dvořák's symphonies: 1-5 are mediocre, 6 and 7 are on the edge, 8 is good, 9 is very good.
Tchaikovsky's symphonies: 1 very good, 2-4 good, 5 excellent, 6 very good.


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## maestro267

Dvorak: 1-5, haven't heard. 6-8, alright. 9, masterpiece.

Tchaikovsky: 1-3, masterpieces; deserve to be programmed more often than they are. 4, one of the most thrilling finales ever. 5, first symphony I ever heard, so very special. 6, utterly heartbreaking, and hence, a masterpiece. Manfred, greatest programme symphony ever.


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## nightscape

Dvorak wins on the basis of 6-9. 5 is pretty good. Some of his earlier symphonies are decent (#2). I like Tchaikovsky 1 and 4-6, but not enough to beat out Dvorak.


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## AClockworkOrange

Taking best to mean favourite I cast my vote for Dvorak.

Both are incredible composers who wrote powerful and beautiful symphonies.

I am not an expert and I have no where near enough knowledge to speculate who may be better from a technical standpoint but I can safely say that I prefer Dvorak. Proportionally, I love a greater ratio of Dvorak's symphonies compared to Tchaikovsky's.


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## Skilmarilion

For me, Tchaikovsky's 5th and 6th are supreme masterpieces. As much as I love Dvorak's 9th, this wasn't a difficult one to choose.


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## Vaneyes

Richannes Wrahms said:


> *Dvořák's symphonies: 1-5 are mediocre,* 6 and 7 are on the edge, 8 is good, 9 is very good.
> Tchaikovsky's symphonies: 1 very good, 2-4 good, 5 excellent, 6 very good.


Nos. 1 - 4, he was still finding his voice.

With 5, he found it. Suggest you listen to the Oslo PO/Jansons recording (EMI, 1988). :tiphat:


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## csacks

To me: Tchaikovsky. 
From Dvorak, only the last 3 symphonies are good enough as to be included in a match. And I mean in a match against any other big composer. But the first group of six is not good enough. On the other hand, all the 6 symphonies by Tchaikovsky are superb pieces of music. The 5th is my preferred one.


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## techniquest

I don't understand. They are completely different - how can anyone determine whose symphonies are better?


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## Animato

I fear I am biased: I love the symphonies of Tschaikovsky very much. I spend hours to listen to his 5th and 6th symphony


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## Arsakes

Dvorak's. I really need to listen to symphonies number 1,3,5,7 and 9 every few weeks. Those odd numbers! OK... number 6 and 8 are awesome too.


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## hpowders

Tchaikovsky's the winner here. His 4th-6th symphonies Dvorak can't match.
In addition his 3 great ballets put him in a class by himself.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I quite like Tchaikovsky's symphonies, especially the first two. His musical language and orchestration skills are more suited to my taste than Dvorak.


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## neoshredder

I like both Composers. But Tchaikovsky keeps me more interested with his flamboyance. Symphonies 4-6 are all masterpieces from Tchaikovsky. And his early ones are good to.


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## KenOC

neoshredder said:


> I like both Composers. But Tchaikovsky keeps me more interested with his flamboyance. Symphonies 4-6 are all masterpieces from Tchaikovsky. And his early ones are good to.


Somebody wrote that "Tchaikovsky could swear a theme through a stone wall." And in the last movement of the 2nd, he does exactly that. What fun!


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## clavichorder

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Dvořák's symphonies: 1-5 are mediocre, 6 and 7 are on the edge, 8 is good, 9 is very good.
> Tchaikovsky's symphonies: 1 very good, 2-4 good, 5 excellent, 6 very good.


5 is not mediocre. 7 is far from on the edge. Also with Tchaikovsky, 6 is way better than 5 and 4 is not in the same category as 2 or 3, 4 is better than 5.


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## KenOC

clavichorder said:


> 5 is not mediocre. 7 is far from on the edge. Also with Tchaikovsky, 6 is way better than 5 and 4 is not in the same category as 2 or 3, 4 is better than 5.


Well, you've nailed it. Except that #4 is Tchaikovsky's best, followed by 6 and then 5. But other than that, you're right on!


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## neoshredder

KenOC said:


> Well, you've nailed it. Except that #4 is Tchaikovsky's best, followed by 6 and then 5. But other than that, you're right on!


Actually the order is 6>4>5>1>2>3.


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## Skilmarilion

neoshredder said:


> Symphonies 4-6 are all masterpieces from Tchaikovsky.


Yep, I think 4 - 6 would put up a great fight against any other composer's "top 3 symphonies". The 6th is probably his ultimate achivement, but #4 and #5 are right there with it, for the most part. Of course, we're not even counting Manfred.

Despite his own personal doubts, I think Tchaikovsky's symphonic writing deserves to be mentioned in any and every conversation concerning the "greatest" symphonists.


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## tahnak

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Dvořák's symphonies: 1-5 are mediocre, 6 and 7 are on the edge, 8 is good, 9 is very good.
> Tchaikovsky's symphonies: 1 very good, 2-4 good, 5 excellent, 6 very good.


You seem to follow the pattern of ignorant conductors who have dictated the repertoire of orchestral concerts. Dvoraks' 8 and 9 have always been loaded in the programs, Before you call Dvorak's Third mediocre and Seventh as on the edge, listen with your heart and not your mind. Compared with Dvorak, yes, I agree, Tchaikovsky's are on a higher plane. But you do program yourself to listen to Dvorak's Third and Seventh on two different occasions. I heard the Dvorak's Third a few days ago and I had to repeat it as the opening themes of the initial and slow movement are so haunting. It has only three movements. Even the finale is electric.


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## hpowders

I consider Dvorak as one of the most overrated composers. Sorry.

On the other hand Tchaikovsky was a great genius and his symphonies completely overwhelm Dvorak's efforts.

Dvorak's music gives me acne. But that's just me?


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## nightscape

I'm thrilled to see that this poll has remained even.


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## Op.123

Dvorak Dvorak Dvorak


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## randomnese

I would actually contest that! I'll explain

I love the 6th for its pure lyricism and harmonic tension. It is a culmination of Tchaikovsky's orchestral timbral mastery, melodic prowess, and harmonic adventurism. The Seattle Symphony recently performed the 6th--the conductor somehow managed to hold the silence after the last note for over a minute before applause began! Once and a while I try to find fault in the Pathétique, seeing how it's so enduringly popular, but every movement is perfect.

However, I love his 5th more than anything else. It's cyclic form and the ending quotation of the first movement theme is astounding. The first movement alone makes it my favorite Tchaikovsky symphony (and my favorite symphony ever), especially in the trade-off between strings and winds in the bridge of the exposition. Tchaikovsky can simultaneously turn an entire 100+ orchestra into massive meta-instruments while preserving the individual color of each instrument. In regards to its conciseness and energy, I prefer the 5th symphony.

The 4th symphony has a rhythmically and harmonically complex first movement. I still cannot quite count the development section, which makes the movement a little _too_ unstable, but the instrumentation and formal structure ranks the 4th symphony high on my list. The 4th movement is bombastic and in my opinion too stereotypically Tchaikovsky. There were many things that Tchaikovsky could have done with the last movement, but he chose to keep it at a constant forte with multiple instruments constantly playing. I prefer a more subdued and personal sound that he draws from the orchestra, which is perfect in the 5th and 6th.

The 3rd is a hidden gem among orchestral repertoire. It is one of Tchaikovsky's least-programmed symphonies, overlooked for the Big Three and the first two. Part of this is due to its slightly unusual nature; five movements, with two scherzos sandwiching a middle slow movement. It's a shame that Tchaikovsky didn't rescore the symphony in his later years. There are several parts where the orchestral writing is a little light, as if he were cautious about unleashing the full symphony on the audience, but the melodies are incomparable in their charm. I especially enjoy the wonderful 4th movement, with a dazzling muted string part.

The first two I will group under one umbrella--formally secure and cookie-cutter in their construction. They are Russian through-and-through, which makes them a little tedious to listen to. Unlike the later symphonies, they lack the fully-throated melodic development and the command of timbre characteristic of Tchaikovsky. To me, not only does Tchaikovsky represent a culmination of Russian melodic tradition but also Rimsky-Korsakov's sound palette and emotional impact. The first two are certainly innovative in terms of melody, yet lack in terms of their instrumentation and "tear-jerkiness".

Also overlooked is Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony. It is not a light listen: conductors commonly carry this into the hour-plus range. Without the constraints of a sonata cycle, Tchaikovsky demonstrated every skill he had. Colors that sweep from bright piccolo and oboe run, a powerful and strange use of a flute in its bass range, and melodies that go unmatched in any composer since. Above all else, Tchaikovsky intended this piece to have a lasting mark on the listeners. His manipulation of cyclic themes testify to German Romanticism.

Thus, my final standings are:
5>6>4>3>1>2, although it is slightly misleading to say one symphony is better than the other per se. Some lack in parts that others excel in.


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## Richannes Wrahms

tahnak said:


> You seem to follow the pattern of ignorant conductors who have dictated the repertoire of orchestral concerts. Dvoraks' 8 and 9 have always been loaded in the programs, Before you call Dvorak's Third mediocre and Seventh as on the edge, listen with your heart and not your mind. Compared with Dvorak, yes, I agree, Tchaikovsky's are on a higher plane. But you do program yourself to listen to Dvorak's Third and Seventh on two different occasions. I heard the Dvorak's Third a few days ago and I had to repeat it as the opening themes of the initial and slow movement are so haunting. It has only three movements. Even the finale is electric.


Raff's got pretty tunes too. Mediocrity, despite it's negative connotations, does not mean 'bad' it just means average.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Best? too vague and unqualified. I'll go with my favorites(for now): Dvorak---5,7,8
Tchaikovsky---1,2,4,5,6


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## Rhinotop

Dvorák 5-9: Excellent
1-4 more or less
Tchaikovsky 4-6: Excellent
1-3: Almost excellent


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## Pugg

Rhinotop said:


> Dvorák 5-9: Excellent
> 1-4 more or less
> Tchaikovsky 4-6: Excellent
> 1-3: Almost excellent


So your choice would be.......


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## starthrower

Neither composer for that number.


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## Rhinotop

Pugg said:


> So your choice would be.......


I prefer Tchaikovsky. All his symphonies are nice, but the Dvorák's 1 & 2 tend to be a bit dense.


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## Heck148

I can't make a judgment here - 
I love the Dvorak symphonies - esp 6, 8, 9, 7, 4...

I also love the Tchaikovsky symphonies 1-3, and #6...
4 and 5 I don't care for much at all, but it is a matter of over-exposure. I've played them so many times, with so many different orchestras, over and over....no thanx...1-3 are wonderful, tho...#3 is really fine, should be performed much more often, IMO...

I feel the same about Dvorak "middle" symphonies 3,4,5. #4 is really good, would be a sure winner, if heard more...again, IMO.


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## PeterF

This is a very close call for me. I would have to say Dvorak just edges out Tchaikovsky by a tiny bit. 
Dvorak's symphonies 4 through 9 are the ones I especially enjoy.


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## hpowders

Tchaikovsky. Can't beat the triple-powered Nos. 4, 5 and 6.


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## Pugg

Rhinotop said:


> I prefer Tchaikovsky. All his symphonies are nice, but the Dvorák's 1 & 2 tend to be a bit dense.


Thank you, very kind of you.


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## Brahmsian Colors

When I think of Tchaikovsky, the first word that comes to mind is beauty.
When I think of Dvorak, the first word that comes to mind is poetry.

Of Tchaikovsky's Six Symphonies, I prefer 2,4,5 and 6.

Of Dvorak's Nine Symphonies, I prefer 7 and 8.

Dvorak's 8th is my favorite of all of them.

I'll leave things at that.


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## Rhinotop

Pugg said:


> Thank you, very kind of you.


You're welcome 

Do you prefer Tchaikovsky or Dvorák?


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