# Mahler's Tenth Symphony



## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

I've listened to Mahler's symphonies 1-9 for years and I have my favorites (4, 6, 9 and _Das Lied_) but, for some reason, I'm only just now finding my way to the unfinished Tenth. I have some questions and am interested in your responses.

First, how do you feel in general about attempts to produce a performing version--good idea or, like Jascha Horenstein and Bruno Walter, do you find the idea anathema?

Second, in terms of the performing versions available, which do you prefer and why?

Lastly, do you have a favorite/recommended performance?

Looking forward to your thoughts...

David


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm not opposed to the idea of producing a full version (like Cooke's). I have the early Ormandy reading as well as later Kurt Sanderling and Simon Rattle renditions (and maybe one or two others - I've lost track!). I'm sure someone like Mahlerian can provide more detail, but evidently Mahler had sketched out enough of the subsequent movements (the little "Purgatorio" movement was partially orchestrated as well) to make a full version plausible. When I hear it, it isn't obvious to me when Mahler stops and Cooke begins. But take that with a grain of salt - I'm far from being an expert! I have not heard any of the other completed versions (Wheeler, Carpenter, etc.).

As far as preferred recordings, I need to listen to the symphony some more to proffer my own view, but Rattle's recording of the Cooke completion with the Berliners is pretty highly regarded.

Speaking of which, revdrdave, have you read Tony Duggan's "synoptic survey" of the symphonies? Most enlightening! Just one man's opinion, of course, but a very educated opinion: http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html *Edit to add:* Keep in mind that Duggan died a few years ago and so any recordings made in the last few years aren't considered in his survey.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I've never heard the 10th and probably never will. If it ain't 100% Mahler, I'll pass.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

As I understand it, Mahler's version was complete enough. He just hadn't copied-out the parts. Don't copyists do that, anyway?

I love this symphony. That real dissonant chord that occurs: I call that _*"the heart-attack chord." *_I think Mahler had experienced some chest pains when he came up with this one.

This was the _*10th*_ symphony. Everybody knows it's supposed to stop at *nine.* He knew he was walking on water when he did this one.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2014)

I have, and love, the Rattler/Berlin complete mentioned above, and highly recommend it, if you want a complete 10th - and why not?

As for a recording of only the Adagio, my favorite is Bernstein's Sony recording.

While technically this may have been his 10th, I still think Das Lied von der Erde is a symphony, thus making the 10th his 11th.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I'm not against creating performing versions of Mahler's Tenth, with the proviso that any such completion will not be as good as what Mahler would himself have created, given another productive summer.

Mahler's score is a complete short score draft in five movements: Adagio, Scherzo, Purgatorio, Scherzo, and Finale. Initially, the first scherzo movement was labelled "Finale", implying that perhaps the symphony was to be in two movements in one conception. The two movements would indeed begin and end in F-sharp major, and form a sufficiently contrasting pair.

But then the Alma affair entered the picture, and the remaining three movements were drafted. Revisions to the earlier movements, including, more likely than not, the addition of that famous nine-note chord at the climax of the first movement (which now connected it to the finale), were also undertaken. One draft of the finale's ending is in B-flat major, whereas another (the one used in all completions I'm aware of) is in the opening key of F-sharp major. If the B-flat ending had been used, then it would emphasize the fact that the symphony is more or less in two separate parts (themes from the purgatorio show up in the finale, for instance), each beginning and ending in their own key area.

If Mahler had lived to complete the work, it is unlikely that the structure of the symphony would have changed. However, the name "purgatorio" would probably not survive (being a painful personal reminder of that summer's events), and in the process of orchestration, he would have probably added more counterpoint. Needless to say, the orchestration would also be far improved from what Cooke does.

As for the various completions, I despise Carpenter's and consider it a travesty. It is tasteless and thoroughly unidiomatic. Cooke's is probably the best, with the second best being Mazetti's second attempt (recorded by Lopez-Cobos on Telarc). Wheeler I've heard once or twice, and it didn't stick out much to me as particularly good or bad. I've heard that Mazetti's first version (recorded by Slatkin) was overloaded like Carpenter's, so I've avoided it thus far.

As for recommended performances, Harding on DG seems to be one of the clear front-runners.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Personally, I love what Cooke has done with the material available. And a purist can still listen to that sublime finished Adagio.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> Personally, I love what Cooke has done with the material available. And a purist can still listen to that sublime finished Adagio.


A purist might also do well to remember that the orchestration of that Adagio, as well as that of his Ninth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, would inevitably have been refined further during rehearsals, as always happened with Mahler.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

If a composer has completed enough of a work that a realistic version may be produced, then I think it is worthwhile to do so to permit the performance of an otherwise lost work. There are far too many unfinished works. If the composer doing the completing has to add too much, however, then the result is dubious, but might still be worthwhile for entertainment or study purposes. Composers have always borrowed others' themes and reworked them into their own works, so a collaborative work should not be written off entirely, as long as one understands what it is.

I have only heard Sinopoli's Andante-Adagio with the Philharmonia O.

Bartók's Viola Concerto is another recent acquisition that was completed by another. At first, I was sceptical, but I am now glad to have been able to hear it, even if it wasn't all Bartók.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I prefer Cooke to the others I've heard, there is a very interesting 3CD version on Testament that has Cooke's lecture on his struggles with the 10 + one of the first complete performances conducted by Berthold Goldschmidt!

Daniel Harding (WPO) or Simon Rattle (BPO) are front contenders for tenth for me!

/ptr


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*A true Mahler sicko*

As a true Mahler sicko I have every version that I can get my grubby paws on.

I have the following in my collection:

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major (arr Barshai)
Brilliant Classics 92205 \ Mahler: Symphonies # 5 & 10
Barshai, Rudolf \ Conductor
Junge Deutsche Philharmonic \ Orchestra

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major (arr Carpenter)
Delos DE 3295 \ Mahler: Symphony No 10 (Carpenter Completion)
Dallas Symphony Orchestra \ Orchestra
Litton, Andrew \ Conductor

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major (arr Cooke)
Denon CO-75129 \ Mahler: Symphony no 10 (Cooke Version I)
Frankfurt Radio Symphony \ Orchestra
Inbal, Eliahu \ Conductor

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major (arr Mazzetti)
RCA Red Seal 09026-6819060-2 \ 
Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra \ Orchestra
Slatkin, Leonard \ Conductor

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major (arr Mazzetti-Revised)
Telarc CD-80565 \ 
Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra \ Orchestra \ Ensemble
López-Cobos, Jesús \ Conductor

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major (arr Wheeler)
Naxos 8.554811 \ 
Olson, Robert \ Conductor
Polish Radio National Symphony \ Orchestra

Symphony No 10 in F sharp major: Adagio
Virgin Classics 50999 2165762 7 \ Mahler: Other Orchestral
Frankfurt Radio Symphony \ Orchestra
Järvi, Paavo \ Conductor

If I tell you what my favorite is, Mahlerian would ban me from the site for at least 69 days. I would go with his suggestions.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Inbal! Inbal! Inbal!


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

Sudonim, yes I am familiar with Tony Duggan's survey and found it extraordinarily useful. He first wrote it in 2000, I believe, but updated it around 2006 or so. Both versions are on the Musicweb International website but, unless I missed something, when it comes to the 10th symphony, the updated version is identical to the original.


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

Yes, Dr. Mike, Mahler made the same claim about _Das Lied_. He wanted to cheat the hangman who seemed to show up whenever a composer had written 9 symphonies.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I*'m not against creating performing versions of Mahler's Tenth, with the proviso that any such **completion will not be as good as what Mahler would himself have created, given another productive summer.
> *
> Mahler's score is a complete short score draft in five movements: Adagio, Scherzo, Purgatorio, Scherzo, and Finale. Initially, the first scherzo movement was labelled "Finale", implying that perhaps the symphony was to be in two movements in one conception. The two movements would indeed begin and end in F-sharp major, and form a sufficiently contrasting pair.
> 
> ...


Isn't that the understatement! That's why I will never listen to any Mahler 10ths!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*More? More? More?*

As a follow-up to my prior post, are there any other versions out there that I do not have? I do not care if they are any good or not. I know Cooke has done a few.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> As a follow-up to my prior post, are there any other versions out there that I do not have? I do not care if they are any good or not. I know Cooke has done a few.


Well, Inbal is Cooke II. Cooke I is available in a performance by Ormandy. More recent recordings use Cooke III.

According to the Mahler discography, a conductor named Martin Sieghart led the Het Gelders Orkest in a version by Samale and Mazzuca, the same duo that did the completion of Bruckner's Ninth (which is in some ways a more dubious proposition than the Mahler 10th).


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I've heard most of the performing versions (beginning, of course, with the woeful original recording of Cooke I with Ormandy). I've so far settled, both performing version-wise and interpretively with the Lopez-Cobos recording of Mazetti II (for various reasons -- seques the fourth and fifth movements together using the drumbeat as a pivot point, gets rid of that horrible xylophone in IV). The one thing listening to all the various performances and versions has taught me is how rock-solid the first movement is. For all the various interpretations differ, I have yet to hear a first movement that is less than convincing.


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

One of the greatest moments in all musical history is the last movement of this symphony. Without the performing version, we would have missed out on it.

Goosebumps guaranteed.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

A few weeks back I bought this:










Today I bought this, the first version of the Tenth I ever heard:










I have to come out with it: I much prefer Ormandy to the award-winning Rattle.

Just sayin'.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

revdrdave said:


> I've listened to Mahler's symphonies 1-9 for years and I have my favorites (4, 6, 9 and _Das Lied_) but, for some reason, I'm only just now finding my way to the unfinished Tenth. I have some questions and am interested in your responses.
> 
> First, how do you feel in general about attempts to produce a performing version--good idea or, like Jascha Horenstein and Bruno Walter, do you find the idea anathema?
> 
> ...


Most of these attempts at reconstructing incomplete works are usually interesting and offers a good alternative view of the works. But I wouldn't read too much into it especially if it is done decades/centuries after the composer's death, whether it be Mozart's incomplete Requiem or Mahler's 10th or whatever.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

The more I listen to it the more I love it. It's often just the Adagio, occasionally the Purgatorio too because I think whatever Mahler orchestrated of it was enough to make a decent and consistent arrangement of the rest. I've only went through the whole Cooke's completion once, sadly, it left me rather cold. It seems clear that Mahler was still going forwards by looking backwards, which is a path taken up by all great composers in various points of their careers (even Webern looking back at Heinrich Isaac!). 

How does all those magnificent harmonies sound like, and there's something in that famous climax, What is about it? 

It's a big fat Organ!!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> As a follow-up to my prior post, are there any other versions out there that I do not have? I do not care if they are any good or not. I know Cooke has done a few.


Hi, arp. I don't know if this counts, but Kurt Sanderling's recording on Berlin Classics, although I think it's essentially a 'Cooke II', includes some amendments made by the conductor, as I recall reading somewhere. Cooke never made any claims to a definitive fleshing-out of the 10th, so presumably any of his versions were fair game for alteration at the conductor's discretion (maybe Mahlerian would be so kind as to clarify or elaborate on this point?).


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> Hi, arp. I don't know if this counts, but Kurt Sanderling's recording on Berlin Classics, although I think it's essentially a 'Cooke II', includes some amendments made by the conductor, as I recall reading somewhere. Cooke never made any claims to a definitive fleshing-out of the 10th, so presumably any of his versions were fair game for alteration at the conductor's discretion (maybe Mahlerian would be so kind as to clarify or elaborate on this point?).


Cooke deliberately referred to his version of the Mahler 10th as a "performing version" rather than a "completion", because no one, outside of Mahler, would have been able to complete Mahler's 10th (David and Colin Matthews assisted with the orchestration). It has been revised a few times since his death, so actually we do have "Cooke II", and "Cooke III" as well!

I'm sure Cooke wasn't so proud of his work that he wouldn't have wanted conductors altering it for a better result if they could. Mahler himself made similar remarks to Bruno Walter, though almost no one would dare altering Mahler's orchestration today.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Well as Rattle loves to say, there's far more Bruckner in the finale of the 9th and far more Mahler in the 10th, then there is Mozart in the Requiem. Yet you don't find a lot of aversion to it, in the same way that you do with the former two works.

I definitely think the Cooke (and other) performing versions are worthwhile. It would be interesting to get an insight into the exact thinking behind the orchestration that's been done in places where Mahler left no indications at all.

Similar to the OP, I'm still discovering the 10th (particularly the last four movements).

I think the second movement is brilliant. It''s another in the long line of beautifully weird Mahler scherzos, with fantastic rhythms, and I love its regular flirtation with darkness even though you get the sense he is ultimately always going to steer the music away from oblivion.

The Purgatorio is equally strong. For me the fourth movement works less well, and it's hard to imagine that Mahler actually intended to have two scherzo movements. 

The slow finale is really wonderful, though. I think it's a shame that it can get overlooked because it isn't 'complete' in the way that the opening adagio movement is. There is nothing quite like its opening, with those violent blows on the bass drum, which slowly give way until we reach that near-angelic flute passage. From there I think it's vintage, slow-movement Mahler, and the gorgeous final bars are nearly as satisfying as the fade away of the 9th.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Do you know The Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas? It is a novel by brazilian writer Machado de Assis, which is narrated by a death caracter who tells his life's story beyond the grave. Well that's exactly Mahler's tenth to me, a ghostly piece for sure. I really love it.


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## Guest (May 30, 2015)

This is the only complete version that I have--I like it a lot. Excellent performance and sound.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Kontrapunctus said:


> This is the only complete version that I have--I like it a lot. Excellent performance and sound.


I like the Gielen recording a fair bit:









It must be said though, the bass drum strokes that open the finale are *unbelievably loud*. Apparently there's a similar issue with Rattle's earlier recording with the Birmingham SO, but the one with Berlin is a little easier on the ears.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Skilmarilion said:


> The Purgatorio is equally strong. For me the fourth movement works less well, and it's hard to imagine that Mahler actually intended to have two scherzo movements.


He did. The movements are numbered and labelled in his draft score.

One of the interesting things about the Tenth is that, like the Fifth, it's really in multiple parts. Here's how Mahler would have likely broken it up:

*Part 1*

I - Adagio, F-sharp major
II - Scherzo 1, F-sharp minor, ending in major

*Part 2*

III - Purgatorio, B-flat minor/major
IV - Scherzo 2, E minor
V - Finale, D minor -> F-sharp major

All of part 2 is actually dominated by themes and motifs heard first in the Purgatorio movement, and the first draft of the finale ended in B-flat major, which would have made parts 1 and 2 feel like separate halves in separate keys.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Among those I heard, Rattle´s two and Wigglesworth (BBC; budget magazine issue, not mentioned before) are those I prefer. Both Cooke.


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## George O (Sep 29, 2014)

joen_cph said:


> Among those I heard, Rattle´s two and Wigglesworth (BBC; budget magazine issue, not mentioned before) are those I prefer. Both Cooke.


The Wigglesworth is easily my favorite.


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## George O (Sep 29, 2014)

Bernstein was superbly filmed performing all of Mahler's symphonies. You can watch them on YouTube if you don't want to buy the DVDs.

Here is a link to part 1 of the Adagio from the 10th:






5 stars


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> He did. The movements are numbered and labelled in his draft score...


But he changed his mind numerous times over how to label the fourth movement. On the draft score, I believe he wrote the following (only with everything not in bold crossed out):

*IV*
_II
Finale 4
3
2. Satz
1. Scherzo (I. Satz)_
*Der Teufel tanzt es mit mir (The devil dances with me)*

He also has the second movement labelled as "Scherzo" and "finale" in the draft.

It just feels very odd to think he actually wanted the symphony to contain two scherzos, and I just thought it's probably indecisive labelling on his part.

To be fair my point earlier was kind of redundant, since the movement itself wouldn't have changed. I just imagine it would have been viewed as a movement similar to 5/ii and 9/iii -- fast, and quick, but not the symphony's scherzo.


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