# Mature Haydn vs Juvenile Haydn



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Joseph Haydn is one of the most prolific composers of all time, and widely considered one of the best. But quantity doesn't translate to quality of course, and what would 106 symphonies be worth if none of them were mature works? Conversely, we can't expect all 106 to be mature masterpieces, some of them must be exploratory, preparatory, or otherwise just lacking in quality, technique, form etc compared to his "mature" masterpieces.

So where do you draw the line? At what point in his symphonies would you place the beginning of Haydn's mature period? At what point in his string quartets, piano sonatas, piano trios? Personally I would say he matured relatively early, and that starting somewhere in the 20s he began to reach a new height in composition – his "Sturm und Drang" phase would be a safe place to start. As for the string quartets, the opus 20 "Sun" quartets began showing signs of genius and maturity, and in fact I have heard some say that the quality of his quartets took a nose dive some time shortly after these early works. I don't know enough about his piano sonatas or trios to comment, but I would be curious to hear others' opinions on these. 

Also worth noting that most of his operas fall under the banner of "Juvenile" Haydn, but that would only really be because he was working in a form that was not well suited to his style and personality. 

Anyone have any thoughts?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I would rate Cello Concerto No.1 in C major (composed in 1761) and




symphonies 44, 45 composed in the same year (1772) as his Sun Quartets as genuine masterpieces, in structure and texture





as for his later period, I think choral masterpieces such as oratorios (Seasons, Creation, Seven Last Words of Christ) and masses are superb


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I would hate to pit the young Haydn against the old Haydn and draw any line, in the same way that I would find that impossible to do with Mozart. I think Haydn had very high standards of craftsmanship and excellence and I've never heard anything that sounded badly composed or without merit, the latest being his marvelous Piano Trios. I believe he made sure that there was contrast between his symphonies and that something of interest can be found in all of them, or at least the ones that I've heard so far. He learned much from others on how to compose, but he also owed a great deal to himself because he was forced to become inventive by virtue of his relatively isolated circumstances. I believe his genius was that he deliberately wrote in a way where others could follow the development of his ideas or anything he was creating. He wasn't trying to hide anything from them and that created a great deal of goodwill between him and his relatively knowledgeable audience. Here is where one can compare the opening of all of his symphonies in a relatively short period of time and perhaps compare his development through the years:

http://www.haydnhouse.com/Maerzendorfer%20Haydn.htm


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, remember he was 40 when he wrote op 20.

Quite a lot of his music doesn’t capture my imagination at all, most of the piano trios for example, though I expect they’re well made etc. I’m not sure this is specially tied to his age when he wrote them - I like the late piano trios but I’ve never enjoyed the London Symphonies for example. I find Mozart more consistently rewarding. This is just speaking about me though, and I’ve certainly not thought about it much.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

IMO, there is no line to draw. There is excellent work from beginning to end of the symphonic cycle. Having just recently listened to all of them (not for the first time), I'd say that from 20 on he had really hit his stride, and his output from 40 on is packed with truly excellent symphonies. The ones before 20 I found had some wonderful individual movements, although symphonies 6-8 always get special mention.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

According to Rosen, the earlier works are generally good, but lack the tightness of structure and thematic unity of the later works. The Sturm and Drang symphonies feature some impressive dramatic effects, but often placed there without much relation to other aspects of the works, he suggests Haydn never surpassed the Oxford symphony. The string quartets apparently begin to gain the structural mastery with op. 33. In order to gain the structural mastery, Haydn simplified aspects of the thematic content, so this is perhaps why some prefer the earlier works. It depends whether one is more interested in local effects, or long range thematic unity I guess.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I don't visit the first twenty ish Symphonies very often, although there are three blatant exceptions there! Otherwise I really struggle to find any line to draw.

^^^Glad someone else is a big fan of the Oxford, btw!


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> As for the string quartets, the opus 20 "Sun" quartets began showing signs of genius and maturity, and in fact I have heard some say that the quality of his quartets took a nose dive some time shortly after these early works.


I used to think this, but revisiting Haydn's quartets recently I found the opposite. The opus 20 quartets are full of surprising turns, but feel a bit too simplistic and dominated by the first violin when I return to them after being delighted by the classical counterpoint in opus 33 with the melodic material flitting between instruments. It's witty, funny, joyful, I find it one of the most pleasurable experiences in music to close my eyes and try to follow the thread of thematic development through the different voices, or zero in on one and see where it comes in and out. Haydn sounds much more at home in that style of writing than his earlier quartets I think.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I personally find many of the op 33 quartets very challenging to enjoy. But I can well believe they are masterfully constructed , I recall liking op 33/6 most.


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