# Opera singers doing cross-over = immoral?



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ sparked by Aramis' *post* in the Show me the way thread.

what's your take?

I'm somewhere on the fence. I feel it's not up to us to tell anybody what they should do, on the other hand, what is immorality? I suppose doing whatever you want _could_ be termed as immoral. When it comes down to it, is there a difference between singing lieder and singing showtunes?


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Not immoral, but annoying. We have had two visits here this year from just 2 international opera singers, both of them crossover. Bryn Terfel came and his programme contained precisely 4 Wagner arias and ALL THE REST OF THE EVENING was crossover. So I didn't go because I would only stay for the opera and that would have worked out at about $30 an aria. Nathan Gunn appears to have teamed up with Mandy Patinkin for an evening of crossover - no opera. So in the operatic desert that is NZ, that's a lot of lost opera.

If they do crossover CDs that's their own business, as long as i don't have to listen.


----------



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Certainly not immoral; as a libertarian, my view on morality can basically be summed up as do whatever you like, so long as it does not injure another person (any other views on morality inevitibly devolve to appeals to authority / god, tradition, or other logical fallacies in my experience).
Would I prefer the situation to be otherwise? Probably. I've never seen Natalie Dessay in recital and while she's making a trip to some US cities over the next several months it's for her Michel Legrand cd promo tour and I doubt I'll travel the thousand or so miles to see it.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I just thank God and other logical fallacies that there were some non-libertarian artists who gratuitously devoted their time and effort to mission of bringing alive all those operas that would otherwise remain unknown, instead of pleasing and making themselves happy by making money on what was already popular.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Aramis said:


> I just thank God and other logical fallacies that there were some non-libertarian artists who gratuitously devoted their time and effort to mission of bringing alive all those operas that would otherwise remain unknown, instead of pleasing and making themselves happy by making money on what was already popular.


Frankly some of those operas would have better remaining unknown!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Why should it be immoral for a musician to make music? A sign of their versatility no doubt. What certain purists don't seem to realise is money has to be made by musicians and crossover is one way. Not just for the star but for the orchestral players, etc
Music is to be enjoyed so if people like opera stars singing crossover then that's up to them. I don't but I do approve of people enjoying music.


----------



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I just thank God and other logical fallacies that there were some non-libertarian artists who gratuitously devoted their time and effort to mission of bringing alive all those operas that would otherwise remain unknown, instead of pleasing and making themselves happy by making money on what was already popular.


What makes you think they were doing it grudgingly, out of a sense of duty, rather than doing it because it was something they enjoyed doing?

Do you really think there was a guy saying "Man, I really don't want to reintroduce this opera to the world, I hate this and would rather conduct the 10 trillionth production of Carmen, but *sigh* I guess it says I should somewhere in the Bible".
Isn't it more likely that someone thought the opera was deserving of being rediscovered and so therefore *wanted* to put in the work necessary to revive it?
Not everyone is motivated by the same things.


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

Aramis said:


> I just thank God and other logical fallacies


I'm impressed! But tell me, just how do you thank a 'logical fallacy'?


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Bryn Terfel came and his programme contained precisely 4 Wagner arias and ALL THE REST OF THE EVENING was crossover.


ouch, that's harsh. What is the cross-over repertoire, anyway?


----------



## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Yes, not immoral. Though doing it in NZ to the exclusion of opera proper seems like cruel and unusual punishment!

Now on the other hand, crossover singers (you know the ones) doing opera? _Thats_ immoral. :devil:

I must admit I liked the clip of Dessay's crossover bid posted in the recent thread about her. Still, I'm relieved that her Carnegie Hall recital next March is fully art song. (Perhaps we'll get a crossover encore.)


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I'm impressed! But tell me, just how do you thank a 'logical fallacy'?


Interesting as I thought the words 'logical' and 'fallacy' were diametrically opposed.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Why should it be immoral for a musician to make music? A sign of their versatility no doubt.


there's that. I tried imagining what I would do were I an opera singer, seeing as how I also like popular music. If a band I liked invited me to sing with them, would I say no? What if Katherine Jenkins invited me for a duet?


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

rgz said:


> Do you really think there was a guy saying "Man, I really don't want to reintroduce this opera to the world, I hate this and would rather conduct the 10 trillionth production of Carmen, but *sigh* I guess it says I should somewhere in the Bible"


Nice exaggeration of my point.

The catchphrase of Callas was "serving the music". She, and other artists who contributed to bel canto revival, obviously had to love the music they were serving. It doesn't mean that they didn't have sense of mission - some of them clearly did. Another example is Piotr Beczała, who claimed in interview that as operatic tenor he wouldn't feel like doing the right thing walking on the stadium to perform amplified crossover concert - even if people would like it.

Or maybe Callas kept singing all this stuff just because Frank Sinatra didn't want to do a gig with her. I'm not sure anymore.


----------



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

She did that because she wanted to; it gave her more pleasure to "serve the music" than to "sell out" or whatever terminology you prefer. Others have different priorities. We as consumers and outside observers may prefer one approach over the other, but so long as they are not inflicting harm on another person or that person's property, their behavior can not be considered immoral.

e: And I know all about Piotr Beczala's view. If you're referencing the OL interview, I was the one who asked him that question


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> She did that because she wanted to





> so long as they are not inflicting harm on another person or that person's property, their behavior can not be considered immoral


You want to keep a belief in something essential for your current wordlview. I understand it's impossible for me to change the way you think in such a wide perspective during the discussion about opera singers doing crossover. All I can say then, is that you will meet people who will make you reconsider the notion that there is nothing more behind human actions other than selfish "I want to".


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I guess "immoral" (meaning in this context unscrupulous or unethical) is too strong a word. Certainly, any singer can sing whatever it suits him, as long as he is informing the audience in advance. That means, if you are a world famous operatic tenor, but you are offering a recital based on popular songs from the 1930s and 1940s, it's ok if everyone knows when buying a ticket that you are not singing opera arias, or art song. Otherwise, some people could rightly feel somewhat cheated.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deggial said:


> there's that. I tried imagining what I would do were I an opera singer, seeing as how I also like popular music. If a band I liked invited me to sing with them, would I say no? What if Katherine Jenkins invited me for a duet?


I'd ask how much the fee was!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This whole business of 'serving the music' - surely if someone like Bryn Terfel sings crossover stuff it doesn't stop him serving the music of the great composers like Mozart and Wagner. I wish someone would explain where the contradiction is. Why is there a problem with a guy singing Scarpia one night and then serenading a different audience with Welsh ballades?


----------



## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

I certainly don't think it is immoral. Especially when one thinks of Tibbett and his contemporaries? Tibbett was probably the best crossover artist I can think of,as well as being an early Hollywood star (6 or 7 movies) and a huge radio personality, not to mention being probably the best American baritone of the 20th century.
My problem is that so many of the Singers who crossover today are so bad at it. 
The cringe factor rises dramatically with every one of them.


----------



## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

schigolch said:


> I guess "immoral" (meaning in this context unscrupulous or unethical) is too strong a word. Certainly, any singer can sing whatever it suits him, as long as he is informing the audience in advance. That means, if you are a world famous operatic tenor, but you are offering a recital based on popular songs from the 1930s and 1940s, it's ok if everyone knows when buying a ticket that you are not singing opera arias, or art song. Otherwise, some people could rightly feel somewhat cheated.


I'm guessing a similar issue came up when Lyric Opera of Chicago insinuated the classic musical "Showboat" (featuring the aforementioned Nathan Gunn, btw) into its subscription season a few years ago. They continue to put on one musical each year, but now make a point of presenting it as a post season add-on, not part of the opera subscription series. For what it's worth, they say over 50% of the audience for last year's "Oklahoma" were making their first visit to the opera house. Nothin' wrong with that.


----------



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Aramis said:


> You want to keep a belief in something essential for your current wordlview. I understand it's impossible for me to change the way you think in such a wide perspective during the discussion about opera singers doing crossover. All I can say then, is that you will meet people who will make you reconsider the notion that there is nothing more behind human actions other than selfish "I want to".


And with any luck, you will discover that (contrary to the way we've all of us been brainwashed to believe), selfish does not equal bad. Selfishness is responsible for every last iota of human progress. But various forces have so succeeded in tainting that word that most people recoil at that statement, thinking it celebrates evil or taints humanity somehow.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Not immoral, but annoying. We have had two visits here this year from just 2 international opera singers, both of them crossover. Bryn Terfel came and his programme contained precisely 4 Wagner arias and ALL THE REST OF THE EVENING was crossover. So I didn't go because I would only stay for the opera and that would have worked out at about $30 an aria. Nathan Gunn appears to have teamed up with Mandy Patinkin for an evening of crossover - no opera. So in the operatic desert that is NZ, that's a lot of lost opera.
> 
> If they do crossover CDs that's their own business, as long as i don't have to listen.


What mama said. .................


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

To hear people go on about it you would think crossover is a recent phenomenon. But it has always happened. Eg Caruso had a repertory of more than 500 songs. They ranged from classical compositions to traditional Italian melodies and popular tunes of the day, including a few English-language titles such as George M. Cohan's "Over There", Henry Geehl's "For You Alone" and Arthur Sullivan's The Lost Chord. Was this immoral?


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

rgz said:


> Selfishness is responsible for every last iota of human progress. But various forces have so succeeded in tainting that word...


I think you might be tainting the word if you think selfishness is more significant to progress than ingenuity, hard work, innovation, team work, lateral thinking or a whole host of other qualities.

As to the question, I think it is more immoral to keep opera and its practitioners in an elitist glass bubble separated from contemporary world and music for fear of either being spoilt. That said, most cross-over makes me cringe especially operatic arias being sung in a more modern style with synthesized accompaniment

A more interesting question is what are some good examples of cross-over in classical music. I quite liked Anne Sofie von Otter' collaboration with Elvis Costello, it at least didn't make me want to snap CDs.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

"Immoral" is not a word I would have used in this context. In my experience, some classical singers sing Broadway show music, etc. well and some do not. When opera singers fail at crossover, it's usually because they over-sing the music and/or sing the English as though it were Italian. The best all-around examples of successful crossover singers, IMO, include Robert Merrill, Dawn Upshaw, and Jerry Hadley (I can't comment on Lawrence Tibbett, because I haven't heard his crossover recordings). Bryn Terfel I think _tends_ to oversing, yet I find many of his Broadway recordings thrilling and "right" (e.g. "Pretty Women" from _Sweeney Todd_). Same with Renee Fleming, though I love her "Moonfall" from The _Mystery of Edwin Drood_. In fact, I like that "Under the Stars" CD Fleming and Terfel made together, which incudes the two recordings just mentioned. Most of the performances on it "work" for me; a couple do not. I'm a big Broadway fan anyway, though, so maybe I'm biased.

I think it's also worth pointing out that before the advent of amplification everyone learned to sing in basically the same way. It's only relatively recently that "singing" could be divided so strictly into "classical singing style" and "popular singing style."


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> ouch, that's harsh. What is the cross-over repertoire, anyway?


In the case of Tefel, it was traditional welsh songs and songs from musicals, if I remember rightly.


----------



## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

Hmm … 'immoral'?

Probably, if it's immoral to waste / abuse a talent.

Of course, the Terfels of this world might say 'Well, it's MY talent - who is this Oreb Loser to say what's wasting it. Hell, who is this Oreb Loser to presume to say how I should do anything? %&#* those antipodean #&@^s!' (He's pretty potty-mother, that Terfel - sort of a Gordon Ramsey of the stage)

To which I would reply, 'Well no: actually it's not 'your talent', because devoid of an audience it doesn't exist' (based on the logical non-fallacy that if a singer sings in the shower and there's no-one there to hear it they aren't singing.

Terfel would then say 'Hah! Gotcha, !<?^#. There's a BIGGER audience for crossover, so by your argument it must be a BETTER use of my talent. QED, beeyatch.' (He's been hanging around the Met Green Room too long, starting to lose his leek-derived lilt for harsher syntax)

I'd say 'But that's only true if we are talking about the same talent. We aren't. The skill involved in signing serious opera well is not the same as the skill involved in singing folk or musical songs well. We know that because many people do magnificently in those genres with voices that would never work on the opera stage: Mandy Patinkin's one, Angela Lansbury, Julie Andrews, Barbara Cook, Richard Kiley …

'A good popular voice is a thing of beauty, just as a good opera voice is.

'In fact, nothing sounds sillier than taking a huge, beautiful opera-voice and forcing it on to 'Ive got the horse right here / It's name is Paul Revere…' (with apologies to Frank Loesser). To assume that an opera-voice can do everything is silly and arrogant. 

'Arrogance is always immoral, and silliness is always immoral in non-silly people.'

Terfel then said 'Yo momma, Mo-Fo.' and shut the door on me.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Whoever criticizes crossovers never heard Eileen Farrell. Despite having to place the mic 6" away from her she sang with perfect pop singing technique. Her version of Blues in the Night might be one of the greatest renditions of a torch song of all time.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Bryn Terfel came and his programme contained precisely 4 Wagner arias and ALL THE REST OF THE EVENING was crossover.


What's going on there? NZ was robbed.
I saw him in Melbourne last May(?). I'm assuming it was the same tour. It was Rheingold and Walkure until the interval. A sort of _Wotan's greatest hits_ package. After that, he came back and did Beethoven's 9th. 
I'm sure you don't want to hear this but he set the place on fire. Magic fire, perhaps?


----------



## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> What's going on there? NZ was robbed.
> I saw him in Melbourne last May(?). I'm assuming it was the same tour. It was Rheingold and Walkure until the interval. A sort of _Wotan's greatest hits_ package. After that, he came back and did Beethoven's 9th.
> I'm sure you don't want to hear this but he set the place on fire. Magic fire, perhaps?


 Damn - I missed that completely. Bugger.

By the way - anyone going to Jonas Kauffman?


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Oreb said:


> Damn - I missed that completely. Bugger.
> 
> By the way - anyone going to Jonas Kauffman?


Can't apply for tickets yet, but yes, if I can get one, I'm flying to Sydney. I also plan to see that dreadful Don Giovanni with Teddy Tahu Rhodes in leather knickers.


----------



## rarevinyllibrary (Aug 9, 2013)

Consider it a vocal training or just a personal fulfillment or just an easy way to eke out income 
:morality has nothing to do with it.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

rarevinyllibrary said:


> an easy way to eke out income  :morality has nothing to do with it.


you think?..................


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Can't apply for tickets yet, but yes, if I can get one, I'm flying to Sydney. I also plan to see that dreadful Don Giovanni with Teddy Tahu Rhodes in leather knickers.


You do realise that it's nearly sold out.


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2013)

Not immoral .


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Whoever criticizes crossovers never heard Eileen Farrell. Despite having to place the mic 6" away from her she sang with perfect pop singing technique. Her version of Blues in the Night might be one of the greatest renditions of a torch song of all time.


That should have read 6 FEET away.... about the mic placement. Sorry. Here is her astonishing Blues in the Night from 1960:




. Notice that though she was a soprano her low F below middle C at the end was huge and beautiful.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ that was truly outstanding :tiphat:


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Can't apply for tickets yet, but yes, if I can get one, I'm flying to Sydney. I also plan to see that dreadful Don Giovanni with Teddy Tahu Rhodes in leather knickers.


How fab! Fingers crossed you can get a ticket.


----------



## Ymer (Oct 13, 2013)

Not so much immoral as usually bad. Why do it? Hahaha

I mean, Birgit Nilsson doing I could've danced all night, that was incredibly charming and fun, what a delightful woman!

But to hear great voices of opera recording Wuthering Heights, Walking in the Air, etc normally only detracts from them.


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm not bothered by opera singers who choose to perform selections from musicals or other types of popular music, though I can't say that I'd necessarily enjoy listening to it. Much depends upon who the singer is and what he/she is singing. I have a recording with Fritz Wunderlich singing German folksongs, and they're delightful.

What does bother me are the pop stars who warble opera arias (not very well) and then try to pass themselves off as opera singers.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*MAuer wrote:*
"What does bother me are the pop stars who warble opera arias (not very well) and then try to pass themselves off as opera singers."

_That's_ what really bothers me. In my opinion, you're not an opera singer unless you have classical training and regularly sing whole operatic roles onstage. I've never been able to understand the attraction of Andrea Bocelli or his voice (even though I do realize he's sung operatic roles onstage).


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I guess just like how some people enjoy "easy listening" some enjoy "classical lite". He's got that inoffensive, sentimental thing going for him that has its fans.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ymer said:


> Not so much immoral as usually bad. Why do it? Hahaha
> 
> I mean, Birgit Nilsson doing I could've danced all night, that was incredibly charming and fun, what a delightful woman!


Yes, but who would have dared to be her partner?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> *MAuer wrote:*
> "What does bother me are the pop stars who warble opera arias (not very well) and then try to pass themselves off as opera singers."
> 
> _That's_ what really bothers me. In my opinion, you're not an opera singer unless you have classical training and regularly sing whole operatic roles onstage. I've never been able to understand the attraction of Andrea Bocelli or his voice (even though I do realize he's sung operatic roles onstage).


People like Bocelli are - like Kate Jenkins - a product of the market for listeners who do not listen to opera as a rule. There are lots better singers but they have caught the attention of the general public, most of whom are pretty up discerning when it comes to erratic vocal technique.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couac Addict said:


> You do realise that it's nearly sold out.


Damn. I can't apply for tickets to anything until 25 November because I'm not a subscriber.

And I can't be a subscriber because I live here.


----------



## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

http://www.sydneyoperahouse.com/whatson/jonas_kaufmann.aspx


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Damn. I can't apply for tickets to anything until 25 November because I'm not a subscriber.
> 
> And I can't be a subscriber because I live here.


I think the tickets have been on general sale since September.


----------



## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I don't know how the artists could make very much profit from crossover music. For one thing, there are the snobs like (most of) us on this forum who think that it undermines real opera. Then there is society at large, people who THINK they are not snobs, but snub any piece of music with a violin instead of a guitar and singers who don't sound like screeching geese! (Sorry, do I sound bitter?) Anyway, if the singers enjoy making the music, and it gives a few people in the world pleasure, why not?


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Thanks to oreb, who might not know it but is my new BFF, I have my Jonas ticket. Now to book the plane. Anyone know some good places to stay in Sydney?


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Thanks to oreb, who might not know it but is my new BFF, I have my Jonas ticket. Now to book the plane. Anyone know some good places to stay in Sydney?


:clap:

Great! Fantastic news!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

marinasabina said:


> I don't know how the artists could make very much profit from crossover music.


maybe in the sense that they can guest on TV shows where they sing 2 tunes and get a large fee, which compared with an opera production or even a recital might be very lucrative.


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't understand why singers who are capable of doing proper opera would want to waste their energy on crossover - except to achieve the kinda walking-down-the-street-and-get-recognised fame that pop singers get. Why not leave crossover to those incapable of doing proper opera, like Sarah Brightman, Katherine Jenkins, Andrea Bocelli, Paul Potts or Russell Watson? It's fine if it's done as a one-off, for a laugh, but generally no.

I did witness a very capable tenor singing "Music of the night" (done vocally like any musical singer would do it)(only, you know, about fifty times better) at karaoke and pretty much shutting every single person in the joint up instantly. It was the big hit of the night. Of course, nobody had the faintest bloody clue who he was. It was fabulous 

It has to be said, I'm not particularly fond of lieder/art song either. I don't know, I find it (generally) dreadfully boring. I went to a 2-hour recital of some German composer and was pretty much like this after about 20 minutes






I'll listen to it if it's a part of a concert, obviously, but I'd never willingly buy a CD or do a search on Youtube for it. Or go to an all-lieder/art song recital again.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> ouch, that's harsh. What is the cross-over repertoire, anyway?


It's bad enough listening to Bryn Terfel without the nonsense he sings mostly now.



Seattleoperafan said:


> Whoever criticizes crossovers never heard Eileen Farrell. Despite having to place the mic 6" away from her she sang with perfect pop singing technique. Her version of Blues in the Night might be one of the greatest renditions of a torch song of all time.


I have her LPs ,she is one of the few who can do it right. Do you remember the excrutiating Kiri and Carreras with the bullying Bernstein, but Farrell is a great opera singer regardless.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Operafocus said:


> I did witness a very capable tenor singing "Music of the night" (done vocally like any musical singer would do it)(only, you know, about fifty times better) at karaoke and pretty much shutting every single person in the joint up instantly. It was the big hit of the night. Of course, nobody had the faintest bloody clue who he was. It was fabulous


That must have been fantastic!


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Another great crossover success IMHO is Renee Fleming. She really gets the style right and sounds like a marketable pop singer. She is almost as good as Eileen Farrell:


----------



## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> That must have been fantastic!


_Let your soul take you where you long to beeeeeee_ was a *big* hit 

Oh, and his "_you know this melody was stolen from Puccini's La fanciulla del West, right?_" comment halfway through was a big hit with us opera fans :lol:


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Operafocus said:


> _Let your soul take you where you long to beeeeeee_ was a *big* hit
> 
> Oh, and his "_you know this melody was stolen from Puccini's La fanciulla del West, right?_" comment halfway through was a big hit with us opera fans :lol:


That's what I say when people, learning that I like opera, starting raving about the Phantom. I reply: "weeell, I like the bit Lloyd-Webber stole from Puccini."


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have a simply dreadful track of opera singers warbling Leroy Anderson's Sleigh-ride. Not immoral - just terrible!


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Soprano Mariola Cantarero is also a great fan of Spanish copla. She is singing here one of the more famous: "Ojos verdes" (Green Eyes), written in 1940 by Rafael de León, Manuel Quiroga and Salvador Valverde.






And this is the same copla by Concha Piquer:


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

schigolch said:


> Soprano Mariola Cantarero is also a great fan of Spanish copla. She is singing here one of the more famous: "Ojos verdes" (Green Eyes), written in 1940 by Rafael de León, Manuel Quiroga and Salvador Valverde.
> 
> And this is the same copla by Concha Piquer:


Second version is much better. I didn't last long with the first (although I like her in my DVD of Luisa Fernanda).


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> That's what I say when people, learning that I like opera, starting raving about the Phantom. I reply: "weeell, I like the bit Lloyd-Webber stole from Puccini."


...of course it doesn't end there. Now _that_ is an immoral cross-over.


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Thanks to oreb, who might not know it but is my new BFF, I have my Jonas ticket. Now to book the plane. Anyone know some good places to stay in Sydney?


Good to read JK is keeping the economy running  Enjoy, this should be good !


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nice one, depreciating the word "immoral" into nothingness by applying it to something so trivial and basic as opera / crossover / popera singers.

Do I think the recording of West Side Story with a cast of intergalactic opera stars was immoral? Nope. 

Do I think it was silly and in bad taste, or better, no taste exercised at all? A-Yep!


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

No, not immoral. Singers are free to sing what they want. Do you think they have a certain "social obligation" to stick to their repertoire ?

Generally speaking I hate cross over. I guess the singers do it because of the pressure of a record company, or just to have some fun.

So there are exceptions. In this video Peter Mattei is doing quite well. Still, I'd rather hear him sing Don Giovanni, which he is pretty good at, by the way.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ i wouldn't say _social obligation_, it feels more personal. Like you said, when you do it not because you're having fun but out of pressure from the recording company... well, there are many things people might do because of outside pressures and then feel a bit dirty afterwards. Might it's snobbishness. It feels a bit funny.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Dongiovanni said:


> Generally speaking I hate cross over. I guess the singers do it because of the pressure of a record company, or just to have some fun.


Or...meaningful royalties. Orchestras love working for Kanye West or whoever. It means record sales.
Unless you're in an orchestra like the Vienna Philharmonic, the dude at Pizza Hut is probably making more coin.
_...baby needs new shoes!_ http://ropaweb.org/_resources/ROPA_Wage_Chart_2011-2012.pdf


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> It's bad enough listening to Bryn Terfel without the nonsense he sings mostly now.
> 
> I have her LPs ,she is one of the few who can do it right. Do you remember the excrutiating Kiri and Carreras with the bullying Bernstein, but Farrell is a great opera singer regardless.


But the excruciating Kiri and Carreras with the bullying Bernstein produced what the marketing people wanted - huge sales!

Actually the excruciating thing for me was Carerras' attempt at an American accent. Like Dick van ****'s cockney in Mary Poppins!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> But the excruciating Kiri and Carreras with the bullying Bernstein produced what the marketing people wanted - huge sales!


true, but marketing _*is*_ one of the most immoral things out there


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

A little off-topic. How about instrumentalists ? Check this video of concert pianist Viktoriya Yermolyeva:


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I'm in love 

(cheers for not posting her Candle in the Wind  my answer would have been very different... heh)


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Where do you draw the line when pulling them from the X-Factor production line?

http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_02/9-year-old-Dutch-singer-opera-diva-or-fame-victim-2369/


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ why do they always sing O mio bambino caro and never Tornami a vagheggiar? I want a wonder 9 year old to sing that one. It's a lot more playful, in any case.

if the headline goes something like "preteen won the hearts of local public by singing something that a child would not usually pick" it's time to draw the line.


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

deggial said:


> ^ why do they always sing O mio bambino caro and never Tornami a vagheggiar? I want a wonder 9 year old to sing that one. It's a lot more playful, in any case.


Because this aria is sort of mandatory on these talent shows. For guys it's Nessum Dorma.

I wonder if any of the commentators, or the parents, or jurymembers know she is singing "My dear daddy, my boyfriend is so pretty, I want to marry him, and if you don't agree I will kill myself".

Her YT vid's counter is over 10 million now in 2 weeks, of the opera singers Angela gets the most views for the same aria, 1.5 mio in 6 years. Sit down and think about that for a while.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: "A child singing opera... is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: "A child singing opera... is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."


Not that it would be revelant but I always loved to grab my dog near his armpits, lift him up to upright position and make him walk on his hind legs before me.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Dongiovanni said:


> Her YT vid's counter is over 10 million now in 2 weeks, of the opera singers Angela gets the most views for the same aria, 1.5 mio in 6 years. Sit down and think about that for a while.


better yet, don't think too much, or you might want to smash something


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Not that it would be revelant but I always loved to grab my dog near his armpits, lift him up to upright position and make him walk on his hind legs before me.


but did you ever make him sing O mio bambino caro?


----------



## Lakritzia (Nov 12, 2013)

Kind of crossover maybe? 
But maybe from the other way.





Pretty Unusual, but good I think.


----------



## messadivoce (Apr 18, 2014)

There is a difference between what type of crossover you are talking about. Pavarotti did a lot of different things that can be classified as "being crossover". Some people might be thinking of his "Pavarotti and Friends" thing where he sang with a bunch of different pop stars. Some, like Alfredo Kraus, might consider the three tenors as a crossover. Kraus thought that their attempt to popularize opera was vulgarizing the art form itself. In that sense, what is acceptable in a recital then? Is Monserrat Caballe considered a crossover for the song Barcelona she sang with Freddie Mercury and the other stuff they recorded? To me, if a singer can sing opera in a purely operatic style and also do other things, they should still be praised as opera singers. I don't like when some pop singers or almost opera people come in and claim to be opera singers. I personally don't like Andrea Bochelli, Paul Potts, Susan Boyle, and probably all of those ones discovered from those TV talent shows. Jackie Evancho is too young to even really be talking about seriously. I can see her growing up to be a pop star or an opera star if she wanted to be. I'm on the fence about Alfie Boe. I actually respect Josh Groban even more now that I know his opinion about it all. Even though a lot of his fans think he has an operatic voice, he said himself that he doesn't want to just try to crossover into operatic stuff like a lot of pop singers do because he doesn't want to insult opera. He said if he would do it, he would seriously prepare for a while (years i think) and get training. That said, I have nothing against Michael Bolton singing Che gelida manina and those other arias he has sung. He tried to be somewhat legit and it's not like he was promoting it in bad taste. I think he was genuinely interested in the music and wanted to share it with people, even though he's not the best example of that by far. It's not like Sarah Brightman. It scares me how she breathes. In terms of singing, I don't have any objections to Mario Lanza either. There is a good example of an old pop singer/movie star (soprano) that trained seriously to be an opera singer. I forgot who is was though. I think she was coached a little by Rosa Ponselle for a bit.

Anyways, the TLDR is that I think that as long as your intention is genuine and you are not just trying to do it to see if you can do it or say you did it and you are taking the proper training to try and do it in a correct operatic fashion then its fine. But if you are claiming to be an opera singer and you have a microphone and don't know how to be heard without it or if you don't know how to breathe (although some opera singers don't know how to do that too ) then you should just stick to pop, there is no shame in that.


----------

