# Is Elisabeth Schwarzkopf actually an operetta singer?



## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

What do you think? I never found that thin unsupported raspy voice appropriate for opera, but her album with operettas is one of the treasures of the century.


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

Ok, "was, not "is".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you care to assemble all the written and spoken comments, from critics, in voice teacher's studios behind closed doors, and without, about the terrible or dreadfully incorrect vocal production of:
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
or
Maria Callas

You would have a several thousand page anthology of 'Dis' on "how not to sing."

Funny thing, that -- those two 20th century singers come up again and again as the "non pareil / non plus ultra" of consummate singer-musicians.

Schwarzkopf premiered the role of _Anne Trulove_ (Stravinsky, Rake's Progress) opposite Léopold Simoneau's _Tom._

It seems that the high C at the end of the Act I aria, "I go to him," left a knowing audience in Teatro La Fenice abuzz with her overall performance (which, indeed, left audiences rather 'shattered,' -- in the best way possible). Regardless of which revue you might find, oddly enough, none mentioned Mme. Schwarzkopf's "thin unsupported raspy voice."

Both Schwarzkopf and Simoneau are legends as the most superb singers of Mozart.

Schwarzkopf and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau are both still renown as the most highly superb of Lieder singers.

I'm certain her voice was not large enough to be up to Verdi or other 'big voice bel canto' standards, but what few of those performance may have been or are still on record -- well, once you are in demand, under contract, 'these things happen.' I think you will find any ventures into that territory comprise very few of Schwarzkopf's entire performing history or the recorded oeuvre.

One of the greatest of consummate musicians and singers, as was Callas, and those others mentioned here, if you want to dwell on what is an almost catty kind of comment about what any of those did not have vs. what they did have, that is your choice.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Is Elisabeth Schwarzkopf actually an operetta?
As it appears in the 'new posts' list! 

(Or is it just my PC?)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Show me a typical operetta singer who can pull off Strauss' Vier letzte Lieder like she did.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Yes,let's be catty!
A pity Schwarzkopf didn't pick up some points from Simoneau,an almost perfect singer.
Certainly her voice was not "raspy", she usually emitted this peculiar fey, cooing sound.
I was playing a record of her singing an Italian aria once when the Italian au pair girl entered an enquired as to what language the lady was using. When I told her that it was Italian she informed me that it was terrible--the Italian that is. As for D.F.D. and Schwarzkopf as lieder singers, they were of the interventionist, over interpreting ilk that on the whole is very annoying---especially in Schubert.
As for popularity with the public, I presume that means that Katherine Jenkins, Andre Bocelli, Andre Rieu and MacDonalds are the greateast. Lastly neither of them were popular with all the listeners or all the critics.
That ought to get things stirred up I suppose !


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Yes,let's be catty!
> A pity Schwarzkopf didn't pick up some points from Simoneau,an almost perfect singer.
> Certainly her voice was not "raspy", she usually emitted this peculiar fey, cooing sound.
> I was playing a record of her singing an Italian aria once when the Italian au pair girl entered an enquired as to what language the lady was using. When I told her that it was Italian she informed me that it was terrible--the Italian that is. As for D.F.D. and Schwarzkopf as lieder singers, they were of the interventionist, over interpreting ilk that on the whole is very annoying---especially in Schubert.
> ...


I am very much looking forward to your compilation of how dreadful were:
Schwarzkopf
Fischer-Dieskau
Callas
Simeneau
Wunderlich (yet another 'actually an operetta singer, no?)
Di Stefano
Gobbi
Crispin
Ameling (such a _small_ voice)
de Los Angeles
Popp
Forrester
Ferrier
Ludwig

...et alia. But, do please remember to leave no Fach unturned!

You've got a good opening paragraph there, perhaps as a nice frontispiece squib for that two-thousand page long tome


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Is operetta singing really that much different to opera singing? Certainly the roles and plot are usually more lightweight but is the singing demand that much less? I would think a good operetta singer is a good opera singer, well perhaps not a good heldentenor or Brunhilde but many roles would be similar.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Is Elisabeth Schwarzkopf actually an operetta?
> As it appears in the 'new posts' list!
> 
> (Or is it just my PC?)


Don't even think of it: I heard someone already bought the rights to the book, and the show is in development. They're thinking of Sarah Brightman for the lead.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Yes,let's be catty!
> A pity Schwarzkopf didn't pick up some points from Simoneau,an almost perfect singer.
> Certainly her voice was not "raspy", she usually emitted this peculiar fey, cooing sound.
> I was playing a record of her singing an Italian aria once when the Italian au pair girl entered an enquired as to what language the lady was using. When I told her that it was Italian she informed me that it was terrible--the Italian that is. As for D.F.D. and Schwarzkopf as lieder singers, they were of the interventionist, over interpreting ilk that on the whole is very annoying---especially in Schubert.
> ...


Please remember that the singer who you are despising because of her popularity was also popular with some of the greatest conductors of the century. Popularity with critics is rather a hazardous business as critics delight in building someone up one minute and then pulling them down next. And who ever built a monument to a critic?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

quack said:


> Is operetta singing really that much different to opera singing? Certainly the roles and plot are usually more lightweight but is the singing demand that much less? I would think a good operetta singer is a good opera singer, well perhaps not a good heldentenor or Brunhilde but many roles would be similar.


No.it's just not so loud!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Please remember that the singer who you are despising because of her popularity was also popular with some of the greatest conductors of the century. Popularity with critics is rather a hazardous business as critics delight in building someone up one minute and then pulling them down next. And who ever built a monument to a critic?


Please don't pull that old one,there were legendary critics such as Ernest Newman and Phillip Hope-Wallace not to mention Christopher Stone and Neville Cardus.
do you mean me despising Bocelli.Jenkinsand their like.
As for Schwarzkopf I haven't said a word about despising her---I bet I have records of hers you'never heard of.
As for DFD,I've always found him very interestig--I must have done as i have 43 LP's and 11 cd's of him performing.
So try to choose your words more carefully'
But I do not choose either of them as the best lieder singers for various reasons.
Incidentally,I have seen no monuments to Schwarzkopf.
What light can you throw on her singing compared with other lieder singers that you are fully informed about?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> I am very much looking forward to your compilation of how dreadful were:
> Schwarzkopf
> Fischer-Dieskau
> Callas
> ...


You must have noticed by now that I have no time for Callas.
You might have also noticed that I have covered DFD and Betty above--are you in a hurry today?
I also have remarked on Simoneau--I think I have everything he did.
Di Stefano---OK I suppose covers him,very idle and unreliable.
Gobbi---great actor and exciting but no bel canto.
Grespin---first class.
Ameling---good but that's really all.
De Los Angeles,probably a real angel.
Popp---I miss her.
Forrester---how boring!
Ferrier---surely i have written enough about the miracle that was Ferrier?
Ludwig---one of the greats without doubt.
Wunderlich,a very fine tenor but his lieder records were not yet right---they would have been in time.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"Di Stefano---OK I suppose covers him,very idle and unreliable."

Everyone now, cringe.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Please don't pull that old one,there were legendary critics such as Ernest Newman and Phillip Hope-Wallace not to mention Christopher Stone and Neville Cardus.
> do you mean me despising Bocelli.Jenkinsand their like.
> As for Schwarzkopf I haven't said a word about despising her---I bet I have records of hers you'never heard of.
> As for DFD,I've always found him very interestig--I must have done as i have 43 LP's and 11 cd's of him performing.
> ...


You have an undoubted talent for being the 'pot' to someone else's 'kettle'. On the subjects of using words more carefully, you should address this undoubted problem you yourself have before you try and correct the fault in others.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> You have an undoubted talent for being the 'pot' to someone else's 'kettle'. On the subjects of using words more carefully, you should address this undoubted problem you yourself have before you try and correct the fault in others.


I.m pleased to see your interesting post re> DFD and Schwarzkopf.
As regards my choice of words I don't choose words like "Despise" for instance.
I also have a good knowledge of music and try to use it, usually sensibly,on this forum---that's why we are here is it not?
As for kettle and black I think you are confusing this saying with something else.
If you mean disagreeing with somebody's statement,are we supposed to say the opposite of what we feel and have seen and listened to ?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

No I am not confusing the statement. You fit the bill well.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Here comes the 2000 word tome.

In 1857 Leopold von Sonnleitner, a friend of Schubert, wrote>
" I heard him accompany and rehearse his songs more than 100 times . above all, he always kept the most strict and even time,except in the few cases where he had indicated in writing a ritardando, morendo, accelerando, etc.
Furthermore, he never allowed violent expression in performance. With Schubert especially the true expression ,the deeper feeling, is already inherent in the melody as such....everything that hinders the flow of the melody and disturbs the evenly flowing accompaniment is, therefore, exactly contrary to the composer's intention and destroys the musical effect..."
If anybody imagines that DFD and Schwarzkopf measure up to these requirement I'm genuinely surprised.

Some comments on DFD :
He has great power as an interpreter but I have doubts about his voice production and his lack of legato.
The lighter, amorous-playful aspect of Schubert is the least congenial to Fischer-Dieskau---and the same discomfort can be sensed in all songs of this type.
Thus with" Fischermaedchen "(1962) he cannot be blithe ...upward leaping slurs are savagely attacked rather than gracefully vaulted.
...Brendel ( 1987) launches " In der Ferne" well...but long before the line has become jagged and explosive on words and dusty on notes and ends in hapless hysteria.

I could go on but of course he did a lot well and he was a fine lieder singer,but to me not the "tops".
I think his singing was more suited to Mahler and Liszt rather than Schubert.
You can of course say that you prefer singer "X" singing Schubert rather thasn anyone else. But if you are going to debate the matter you need to know all the best lieder singers past and present.

My choice would be : Wolfgang Anheisser, Hermann Prey, Karl Erb. Richard Tauber, Christa Ludwig, Lotte Lehmann, Elena Gerhardt, Aksel Schiotz, Hans Hotter, Gerard Souzay,Julius Patzak. and Alexander Kipnis.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> No I am not confusing the statement. You fit the bill well.


Still nothing on the subject in hand?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> "Di Stefano---OK I suppose covers him,very idle and unreliable."
> 
> Everyone now, cringe.


You surprise me, after all you are pretty knowledgeable and he is not one of the fairly modern times great tenors.
He ,Corelli and Del Monaco brought taste and style fairly low. Carlo Bergonzi is an example of the opposite.
He did have a reputation for not turning up and so on, must have learned it from Callas maybe ?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DavidA said:


> No I am not confusing the statement. You fit the bill well.





moody said:


> Still nothing on the subject in hand?


You are the subject on hand, if you bother to look at the context.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> You are the subject on hand, if you bother to look at the context.


No I'm not and you are stepping near the boundary in my opinion. We do not talk about individuals here.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

The taunting is level. Let's have a clean break, gentlemen.

View attachment 12050


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> The taunting is level. Let's have a clean break, gentlemen.
> View attachment 12050


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Most reviews of singers seem to be nothing more than idle gossip and catty insults disguised as legitimate reviews. I've only found a few writers on opera singing that seem to actually listen to the music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> The taunting is level. Let's have a clean break, gentlemen.
> 
> View attachment 12050


Love of vituperation. Sorry!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Most reviews of singers seem to be nothing more than idle gossip and catty insults disguised as legitimate reviews. I've only found a few writers on opera singing that seem to actually listen to the music.


The great critics in all aspects of life have long gone.


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