# Bach and jazz



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

You may have heard the comment that "Bach invented jazz." The prelude supports this:






Can you specifically cite jazz musicians saying Bach was an influence?


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Pianist John Lewis of the Modern Jazz Quartet was heavily influenced by Bach. He often played Bach works and did an album of jazz arrangements of Bach compositions that I haven't heard ("Blues on Bach").

Ornette Coleman sometimes solos over Bach's prelude in C major in concerts. I love Ornette but I don't think it really works.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Jazz got its 'swing' from african music and not from Bach. I don't see Bach as a direct influence on Jazz. Composers like Debussy and Ravel were more explicitly influential. Check the first minute of this: 



.
In any case, Bill Evans had Bach in high esteem: "Bach changed my hand approach to playing the piano. I used to use a lot of finger technique when I was younger, and I changed over a weight technique. Actually, if you play Bach and the voices sing at all, and sustain the way they should, you really can't play it with the wrong approach."
But that's a more 'abstract' influence, I think.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

George Shearing,

Jacques Loussier, 




Wynton Marsalis.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

French classical jazzer, Claude Bolling.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

There are many parallels between Baroque practices and jazz practices.

The baroque continuo is like the jazz rhythm section. The keyboardist has a 'chart' consisting of figured bass which is basically chord symbols for him to fill in with the appropriate harmonies adding flourishes as he sees fit.
The da capo aria allows the vocalist to 'take liberties' with the tune and do some improv.

And of course the well worn 'circle of fifths' harmonic progression can be found in numerous baroque piece and jazz standards.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

And you'll notice that at about 7'20 Beethoven invented the 'walking bass' a la boogie!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aurelian said:


> You may have heard the comment that "Bach invented jazz." The prelude supports this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That prelude, or hundreds of other works of Bach, do not "support" this thesis.

Jazzers admired Bach, and Stravinsky, and other Jazzers' music, and other genres of music non-western.

Artists who are not writers will talk, it seems


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> There are many parallels between Baroque practices and jazz practices.
> 
> The baroque continuo is like the jazz rhythm section. The keyboardist has a 'chart' consisting of figured bass which is basically chord symbols for him to fill in with the appropriate harmonies adding flourishes as he sees fit.
> The da capo aria allows the vocalist to 'take liberties' with the tune and do some improv.
> ...


Well, that's true. But that kind of things arise naturally when you have to play live all nights and without much time for preparing!. Are you suggesting that this is evidence of Baroque influence on Jazz?.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> There are many parallels between Baroque practices and jazz practices.
> 
> The baroque continuo is like the jazz rhythm section. The keyboardist has a 'chart' consisting of figured bass which is basically chord symbols for him to fill in with the appropriate harmonies adding flourishes as he sees fit.
> The da capo aria allows the vocalist to 'take liberties' with the tune and do some improv.
> ...


I am so not on board with any such paper-thin sets of coincidental similarities.

I'm sure the American slaves (i.e.Africans) and later non-slave inventors / players of Jazz simply had Bach and Baroque forms and performance practices all the time at the forefront of their minds.

If you had pushed a pencil this far on an essay in music history, or on a bank check, both documents would have bounced mightily


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I am so not on board with any such paper-then sets of coincidental similarities.
> 
> I'm sure the American slaves (i.e.Africans) and later non-slave inventors / players of Jazz simply had Bach and Baroque forms and performance practices all the time at the forefront of their minds.
> 
> If you had pushed a pencil this far on an essay in music history, or on a bank check, both documents would have bounced mightily


I was merely pointing to some interesting parallels in the conventions of the two.

It's not that they are coincidental but that Jazz and Baroque can function with a shorthand notation because the musicians know what is expected of them in their respective fields. Give a continuo harpsichordist a bass line and a set of symbols over them such as 6 or 7 or 9-8 and they will fill in the chords with their own voicings and passing notes just as a jazz player will use a chord chart and do like-wise.

Up until Beethoven a soloist in a concerto could be 'trusted' to provide their own cadenza (take a solo) because the musical language and style was not as tied to the individual composer's personal expression as it was to become in the Romantic period.
I am generalising somewhat.

*Of course Bach didn't invent Jazz. *:lol:

That honour goes to Louis Armstrong:trp:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Aurelian said:


> You may have heard the comment that "Bach invented jazz." The prelude supports this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems that Bach was a great improviser but I don't understand how that prelude supports the theory that he invented jazz.
Anyway the first example I can think of is the great Ted Greene who was able to improvise in the style of Bach





another guitarist who developed a style based on counterpoint and probably influenced by Bach was Jimmy Wyble. 
Keith Jarrett is a pianist who likes to play Bach.
Dave Brubeck, Jimmy Giuffre and others were musicians who wrote jazz fugue: it doesn't means that they were influenced by him, but they sure were influenced by baroque music.

And there's Alec Wilder, who wasn't strictly a jazz musician but he wrote for jazz musicians (he has some standard) and he wrote many pieces, like his octets that were a crossover of jazz music and counterpoint. And he actually considered Bach the greatest musician who ever lived and he was certainly influenced by him.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> That honour goes to Louis Armstrong:trp:


I think it was Buddy Bolden


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Harmonically, there are many similarities, since jazz (starting out as more blues-influenced) gradually became more "Western" in its forms, exemplified by the be-bop era. Adopting Western tin-pan alley standards, common progressions began to be used, meaning strings of V-I's, ii-V-I's, and other forms. The be-bop players (Charlie Parker, Bud Powell) discovered the "flat-five" or tritone, and began doing "tri-tone substitutions" which transformed normal V-I's into chromatic descents.

I think the idea of Bach being similar to jazz is an anathema to many purists here. How about some Swingle Singers?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> I think the idea of Bach being similar to jazz is an anathema to many purists here. How about some Swingle Singers?


lol, that's a quite twisted interpretation. I couldn't care less about that.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I think the idea of Bach being similar to jazz is an anathema to many purists here. How about some Swingle Singers?


The Swingle singers - ah, fond memories of how fun that was when they appeared, or their first recording made it big.

But, that is Bach with a backbeat, not Jazz.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Aurelian said:


> You may have heard the comment that "Bach invented jazz." The prelude supports this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its not only Bach, but also Baroque music in general - eg. Vivaldi - that has had impact on jazz, and commonalities with it. Eg. the aspects of improvisation (eg. cadenzas where improvised in BAroque and Classical eras, but in the Romantic era they began to be written down), also small group jazz being like chamber music in terms of its intimacy and smaller sound, and also aspects of theme and variation.

In the post war era there was more and more of an enquiry into this. People have mentioned Bolling and Louissier, they where important. Another one was *Raymond Fol *(his big band version of Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_) also *Nina Simone *who studied classical piano (check out the ersatz BAch solo in _Love me or leave me_. Others where Brazilian guitarist *Laurindo Almeida *and *Dave Brubeck.* Also *Chick Corea*, who cites Bach and Bartok as amongst his favourite classical composers - and I know he's recorded Bartok's music, and what would have Bartok been without the influence of Bach?

I quite like fusion as well as crossover between classical and others things, its an interesting area and is often just relaxing but stimulating at the same time. There's all these connections and these musicians have chosen to exploit them and develop them, made them the basis of their ideas and creativity. So its all good as far as I'm concerned.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

A lot of reverse history analogy / grasping for connective similarities I find somewhat akin to the tone and approach taken by Erich von Daniken in his book, "Chariots of the Gods": -- those theories all ultimately and resoundingly debunked -- the tone of the theory smugly screaming, 
"I, a white European man, am so affronted at the thought that earlier and non-white peoples could have done any of these remarkable things that I am compelled to attribute their achievements to superior beings from outer space rather than credit their genius."

Bach influencing Jazz, not to be mistaken with later generation Jazz players playing around on or with Bach, has something of the same ring to it. Even making the tie-in to point out parallel similarities I find rather condescending, towards both Bach and the Jazz innovators.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> A lot of reverse history analogy / grasping for connective similarities I find somewhat akin to the tone and approach taken by Erich von Daniken in his book, "Chariots of the Gods": -- those theories all ultimately and resoundingly debunked -- the tone of the theory smugly screaming,
> "I, a white European man, am so affronted at the thought that earlier and non-white peoples could have done any of these remarkable things that I am compelled to attribute their achievements to superior beings from outer space rather than credit their genius."
> 
> Bach influencing Jazz, not to be mistaken with later generation Jazz players playing around on or with Bach, has something of the same ring to it. Even making the tie-in to point out parallel similarities I find rather condescending, towards both Bach and the Jazz innovators.


No one's being condescending. You are being a little to serious if I may say.
What is wrong with finding similarities it's not as if music is created in a vacuum.
Jazz is the embodiment of integration between African and European traditions.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bach influencing Jazz, (is) *not to be mistaken with later generation Jazz players playing around on or with Bach*.

But the initial statement can lead anyone to think.... the early innovators of Jazz were modeling their music after Bach, or Vivaldi, etc. Give the early ones credit, and the later ones, playing with, admiring of, or influenced by, fine, another story.

*It is these simple brief statements, sound bytes, which infuriate me, and they do mislead, and they are condescending. ... and they're a too lazy approach *


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

starthrower said:


> French classical jazzer, Claude Bolling.


That was the first one that came to mind for me as well; the influence of Bach on his work is very clear.

I am generally not fond of jazz, but for Bolling I always make an exception.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Bach influencing Jazz, (is) *not to be mistaken with later generation Jazz players playing around on or with Bach*.
> 
> But the initial statement can lead anyone to think.... the early innovators of Jazz were modeling their music after Bach, or Vivaldi, etc. Give the early ones credit, and the later ones, playing with, admiring of, or influenced by, fine, another story.
> 
> *It is these simple brief statements, sound bytes, which infuriate me, and they do mislead, and they are condescending. ... and they're a too lazy approach *


I agree. Harmonically Jazz music owes a lot more to musicians like Thelonious Monk or George Russell (and both used harmonic languages that has no antecedents in european music). And don't forget the blues. 
I think that the european composers who influenced jazz the most were the so called impressionist, especially Debussy and Delius.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> I agree. Harmonically Jazz music owes a lot more to musicians like Thelonious Monk or George Russell (and both used harmonic languages that has no antecedents in european music). And don't forget the blues.
> I think that the european composers who influenced jazz the most were the so called impressionist, especially Debussy and Delius.


Just to clarify Dizzy Gillespie with the HELP of Thelonious Monk invented the harmony of Bebop. I don't think classical music had that big of an influence on the development of jazz.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> Just to clarify Dizzy Gillespie with the HELP of Thelonious Monk invented the harmony of Bebop. I don't think classical music had that big of an influence on the development of jazz.


I love Gillespie (also as a composer) but I think that what Monk did was much more peculiar. Anyway, both Monk and Gillespie (and Parker, Powell, Tadd Dameron, Fats Navarro) shaped what was known as bebop.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Charlie Christian, Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young were also major influences on bebop. I think it was a collective effort by the musicians, no one person was responsible.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> I love Gillespie (also as a composer) but I think that what Monk did was much more peculiar. Anyway, both Monk and Gillespie (and Parker, Powell, Tadd Dameron, Fats Navarro) shaped what was known as bebop.


I agree that his style is more personal but Dizzy almost single handedly created the harmony of bebop. Parker created the phrasing, Kenny Klarke revolutionised the drumming, Jimmy Blanton and Oscar Petiford changed the way a bass player plays etc.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> I agree that his style is more personal but Dizzy almost single handedly created the harmony of bebop.


Why do you think this? I mean, they all knew each other (in fact, both Gillespie and Monk learned something from Mary Lou Williams). Charlie Parker said that he learned to play that way an evening he was practising on Cherokee. Coleman Hawkins composed "Queer notions" in 1933.
And Gillespie said this, talking of the band with Earl Hines (considered by many the first bebop group, altough unfortunately it was never recorded):
"People talk about the Hines band being 'the incubator of bop' and the leading exponents of that music ended up in the Hines band. But people also have the erroneous impression that the music was new. It was not. The music evolved from what went before. It was the same basic music. The difference was in how you got from here to here to here ... naturally each age has got its own ****"


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Why do you think this? I mean, they all knew each other (in fact, both Gillespie and Monk learned something from Mary Lou Williams). Charlie Parker said that he learned to play that way an evening he was practising on Cherokee. Coleman Hawkins composed "Queer notions" in 1933.
> And Gillespie said this, talking of the band with Earl Hines (considered by many the first bebop group, altough unfortunately it was never recorded):
> "People talk about the Hines band being 'the incubator of bop' and the leading exponents of that music ended up in the Hines band. But people also have the erroneous impression that the music was new. It was not. The music evolved from what went before. It was the same basic music. The difference was in how you got from here to here to here ... naturally each age has got its own ****"


Well first because of Dizzy's own autobiography, Miles' autobiography, the book "swing to bop", the book "hear me talking to ya" and countless interviews I've read.

I'm really talking about just the harmony, I don't want to sound like I think Dizzy is more important than Charlie Parker. Bebop was created because Charlie Parker's unique and brilliant way of playing formed a perfect match with Dizzy's new harmonies.


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