# Does there exist anything in this world like 'Tristan und Isolde'?



## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

This is my first TC post. I'm glad to be here.

*Some background info:*
I've heard classical music all my life, but I've only been serious for a year and a half. The only composers I've been inspired to dive deep(er) into have been Bach, Mozart and Prokofiev. My initial phase was spent trying to familiarise myself with all kinds of genres, but now I spend my time just listening to what I love. It is spent almost entirely on concertos, specifically the violin concerto. Sometimes I get inspired to try something new, but it often doesn't end all that well. Every time I try and listen to a symphony I think "this is nice, but it lacks a soloist". Somewhere along the way I was inspired to try opera, mainly to understand why some people are so fanatic about it. My (short) opera listening history is in this order:


 Le Nozze di Figaro
 La Bohème
 Die Zauberflöte
 L'amour des trois oranges
 Prodaná nevěsta 
 Prodaná nevěsta (I watched it twice}
 Don Giovanni
Hands down my favourites were _Le Nozze di Figaro_ and _Prodaná nevěsta_. My love for _Prodaná nevěsta_ is probably due to some bias because I speak Czech, but I did _genuinely_ love the music and plot. This weekend I was inspired to listen to another opera. Now that I discovered this forum, I checked the TC Top Recommended lists and saw how high _The Ring_ and _Tristan_ consistently ranked. I didn't have time for _The Ring_, but I could manage _Tristan_. I knew nothing of this opera, so I went looking in the forums and it seemed that there was a common theme of dark suspense. Well, I was in already in a 'darker' head-space so I thought "why not?". I got the Barenboim/Muller DVD that everyone raves about and sat down.

*What Tristan did to me:*

*Act One*
During the first act my heart was beating quickly, I had pain in my chest and head, I felt ill, yet I couldn't look away, It was like I was in a trance. I don't know how to describe it. It was like I was on some kind of drugs, although I cannot determine which. Before starting the DVD I told myself I would take a break between each act, so after the first act ended I went to the bathroom and saw my reflection in the mirror. I looked as if I was tweaking or something. My body still had this lasting ill feeling, but I wanted more and went right back.

*Act Two*
I can't really describe or remember act two. All I know is that at some point the trance got very deep and I was certainly not in an everyday mode of consciousness. At some point(s) there were tears in my eyes.

*Act Three*
I cannot describe act 3 as trance. I was in more of a normal mode of consciousness. Maybe it was the length of the piece, but at this point (like the characters) I grew impatient and wanted my release... and there it was, our release. I don't think it could have been any sweeter. As the curtains fell, I noticed a tear had _fallen_ from my eye.

*My conclusion:*
Tristan was not psychedelic, yet it certainly reminds me of a 'trip'. I cannot vividly remember anything musically except for the _Tristan chord_, yet as a whole it is unforgettable. It is not that I can't stop thinking about it, *I don't want to stop thinking about it*. When I have cried to other music, it is because the music brings forth something (whether sad or beautiful) from my subconscious to my awareness making me burst into tears. During _Tristan_ I did not cry like I did for any other music, I cried purely for and because of _Tristan_. With other opera that I have loved there is beautiful and catchy music along with a great story that when combined, make for a great evening. Afterwords I want to hum the arias and wish my life was an opera, but with _Tristan_ I can't really say I liked any of it. I do not want to hum, I do not want to see it again, I do not want to try other Wagner, I don't even know if I want to listen to any music. Although I did not necessarily like any of it, it was somehow the most thrilling and emotional piece of art I have ever encountered. I am eternally gratefully for seeing it before my death. I had no idea art could do this kind of stuff to people, at least not to me. When people rant about their favourite composer or work and the ecstasy it brings, I never believed them, and to be honest, I still don't. Hell, I no longer believe the ecstasy that I have claimed to experience. When people describe their experiences from _Tristan_, I do not for a second doubt them. All this from some opera with no stage action...

*My question:*
Is there any other piece of art so capable of consistently doing what _Tristan_ does to people?

(any _Tristan_ discussion is also welcome )


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Welcome, Bumblehorse. Many on TC love *Tristan und Isolde*!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Get one of the great historic Tristans with say Flagstad, Varnay or Nilsson and just let the music wash over you. Many think Flagstad's studio stereo recording may be the best. There is a whole thread on the best Tristan I think. The music is soooooo complex that it continues to amaze you. I think the music speaks to the psyche. That is a great DVD. It may be too intense for regular viewing but the recordings can just wash over you and get even better with time. You can learn a lot by reading this forum. There are many who know a staggering amount about opera. There are many great operas you have yet to sample and over half you have listened to I am not familar with and I know a lot about opera. I have a lot of opera talks I gave as introductions to opera on my Youtube channel you may like:https://www.youtube.com/user/nwdixieboy/videos
BTW, I love Prokoviev.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Thanks for the wonderful reply. There were definitely moments where reading the subtitles interfered with letting the music wash over me. I could imagine being able to just listen if I became familiar with the libretto, but since I don't understand German how would I know when they are saying what? I found the libretto to be very important to my experience.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Bumblehorse said:


> Thanks for the wonderful reply. There were definitely moments where reading the subtitles interfered with letting the music wash over me. I could imagine being able to just listen if I became familiar with the libretto, but since I don't understand German how would I know when they are saying what? I found the libretto to be very important to my experience.


Yes, the libretto/singing is vital - or else you just end up with the greatest late romantic music ever written, and Wagner is so much more than that .......


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

I hope no one minds if I re-ask my question. In your opinion is there anything quite like Tristan that (as Seattleoperafan said) speaks to the psyche? The only other piece I can think of is Bach's Chaconne, but it is nowhere near Tristan's intensity and passion.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Bumblehorse said:


> I hope no one minds if I re-ask my question. In your opinion is there anything quite like Tristan that (as Seattleoperafan said) speaks to the psyche? The only other piece I can think of is Bach's Chaconne, but it is nowhere near Tristan's intensity and passion.


As an atheist, Parsifal always mesmerised and bewildered me with its compelling spiritual, non-religious magniloquence. Act 3 still sends shivers down my spine.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bumblehorse said:


> Thanks for the wonderful reply. There were definitely moments where reading the subtitles interfered with letting the music wash over me. I could imagine being able to just listen if I became familiar with the libretto, but since I don't understand German how would I know when they are saying what? I found the libretto to be very important to my experience.


I like words with action but if I just listen in my car I just listen to the voice as if it were part of the symphony. I know no foreign languages though I studied German ages ago.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> You can learn a lot by reading in the opera talk forum.


Is this the TC Opera forum?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Is this the TC Opera forum?


I have learned tons from more knowledgeable members than me who are all very nice to me as well. Maybe you don't read the responses.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have learned tons from more knowledgeable members than me who are all very nice to me as well. Maybe you don't read the responses.


You misunderstood me - I agree with you, but I was wondering if you meant a different forum altogether.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> You misunderstood me - I agree with you, but I was wondering if you meant a different forum altogether.


OOPS that is what it is called on my bookmark, which I used the title of in my post. I thought you were a big fan of this group, too. We both misunderstood each other. I changed it in my copy.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Many think Flagstad's studio stereo recording may be the best. There is a whole thread on the best Tristan I think.


There is no stereo Flagstad recording of Tristan, studio or otherwise.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Bumblehorse said:


> *My question:*
> Is there any other piece of art so capable of consistently doing what _Tristan_ does to people?
> 
> (any _Tristan_ discussion is also welcome )


Probably not, but have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's film _Vertigo_? The score is borderline plagiarised from Wagner, and the whole film has a similarly delirious effect right up to the shock ending.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

BachIsBest said:


> Probably not, but have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's film _Vertigo_? The score is borderline plagiarised from Wagner, and the whole film has a similarly delirious effect right up to the shock ending.


I have not. In fact, I've hardly watched any cinema. I did like _The Shining_ though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Your description of how _Tristan_ affected you strikes me as absolutely normal. When the opera was first sprung on the public people reportedly fainted during it (the composer Chabrier did). Nietzsche felt that Wagner had revived the ancient spirit of Dionysus. He later said that every moment of the opera almost chokes you, and that "the world is poor for those who have never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell." Clara Schumann said that she had never seen or heard anything so disgusting in her entire life. Verdi said that it filled him with terror and that he could hardly imagine it being composed by a human being. In the movie _Humoresque_ Joan Crawford commits suicide by walking into the sea to the music of Isolde's "Liebestod." Wagner, while composing it, marveled that it was becoming something frightening and that only mediocre performances would save him, while good ones would drive people crazy. A friend of mine who started listening to it had to take it off after several minutes, not because he didn't like it but because he found it too intense. When I first heard it I couldn't stop listening to it, and sometimes I felt as if I were sinking into a deep abyss from which I would never return. At other times I felt as if I were committing a terrible sin by letting anything so ungodly affect me so powerfully. (Well what do you want? I was 16!)

As I say, all perfectly normal. 

No, there's nothing else like it. We couldn't take two of them, could we?


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Your description of how _Tristan_ affected you strikes me as absolutely normal. When the opera was first sprung on the public people reportedly fainted during it (the composer Chabrier did). Nietzsche felt that Wagner had revived the ancient spirit of Dionysus. He later said that every moment of the opera almost chokes you, and that "the world is poor for those who have never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell." Clara Schumann said that she had never seen or heard anything so disgusting in her entire life. Verdi said that it filled him with terror and that he could hardly imagine it being composed by a human being. In the movie _Humoresque_ Joan Crawford commits suicide by walking into the sea to the music of Isolde's "Liebestod." Wagner, while composing it, marveled that it was becoming something frightening and that only mediocre performances would save him, while good ones would drive people crazy. A friend of mine who started listening to it had to take it off after several minutes, not because he didn't like it but because he found it too intense. When I first heard it I couldn't stop listening to it, and sometimes I felt as if I were sinking into a deep abyss from which I would never return. At other times I felt as if I were committing a terrible sin by letting anything so ungodly affect me so powerfully. (Well what do you want? I was 16!)
> 
> As I say, all perfectly normal.
> 
> No, there's nothing else like it. We couldn't take two of them, could we?


This normality is what I cannot understand. Like with most other things, I would safely assume these descriptions are in one way or another hyperbole, metaphor or only true for a small few who love Wagner above all else (or have weak hearts), but as I came to find out, they are not...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bumblehorse said:


> This normality is what I cannot understand. Like with most other things, I would safely assume these descriptions are in one way or another hyperbole, metaphor or only true for a small few who love Wagner above all else (or have weak hearts), but as I came to find out, they are not...


_Tristan_ is certainly a phenomenon hard to account for, but perhaps not more so than any other extreme manifestation of creative genius. Not that there are an awful lot of them as innovative and influential as this singular opera, which is singular because of the peculiar thing it sets out to do.

Wagner's musical background wasn't extraordinary; he did have some lessons in the usual stuff - harmony, counterpoint, etc. - but as a composer he wasn't precocious or especially individual early on. His "Romantic operas" - _Dutchman, Tannhauser_ and _Lohengrin_ - are wonderful works of great originality, but starting with the _Ring_ his musical imagination began to grow by leaps and bounds, and there is little in his earlier work to prepare us for the novel conception of drama _Tristan_ represents, or for the intense and complex musical language in which that conception is clothed.

The basic dramatic theme of the opera is simple: it's the passion of longing that can never be fulfilled, but can only grow more excruciatingly powerful, like water behind a dam, until the dam finally breaks and life itself drowns in the flood. The disturbing thing is that this passionate striving for oblivion is presented as a spiritual experience, so that pain and ecstasy, tragic death and blissful transfiguration, are experienced not as opposites but as one single thing. This can be seen as an ultimate statement of power of love to transcend the pains of material existence, as a hugely inflated expression of the agony and ecstasy of erotic passion, or simply as an incredibly expanded metaphor for the sexual act, culminating in post-coital bliss. But whatever angle of view we choose to take, _Tristan_'s music, with its inextricable mix of the darkly visceral and the glowingly spiritual, which keeps us in tension and allows us no true resolution for three-and-one-half hours, is every bit as unsettling and riveting to us as it was to Wagner himself, who couldn't quite believe the volcanic eruption of unheard-of sounds coming out of him.

Needless to say, no one had ever tried to communicate such a concept in an opera, or in music generally. The capacity of western tonal harmony to generate tension, ambiguity and suspense is here pushed leagues beyond what anyone had previously attempted, but such extremes of affect were always implicit in the musical language and it only required a composer specially attuned to the power of harmony to come along and find a rationale - in this case a tale of unconsummated love - to push it to its farthest point. I believe _Tristan _remains the sole occupant of that farthest point; it really has no successors on anything like the same scale, although innumerable composers have made use of its lessons. In its extreme statement of the peculiar expressive project it represents, and in the level of genius required to do it, it couldn't be done again. It's an anomaly and an archetype at once, one of the few works of art necessary in defining a culture and an age.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> _Tristan_ is certainly a phenomenon hard to account for, but perhaps not more so than any other extreme manifestation of creative genius. Not that there are an awful lot of them as innovative and influential as this singular opera, which is singular because of the peculiar thing it sets out to do.
> 
> Wagner's musical background wasn't extraordinary; he did have some lessons in the usual stuff - harmony, counterpoint, etc. - but as a composer he wasn't precocious or especially individual early on. His "Romantic operas" - _Dutchman, Tannhauser_ and _Lohengrin_ - are wonderful works of great originality, but starting with the _Ring_ his musical imagination began to grow by leaps and bounds, and there is little in his earlier work to prepare us for the novel conception of drama _Tristan_ represents, or for the intense and complex musical language in which that conception is clothed.
> 
> ...


See below


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> _Tristan_ is certainly a phenomenon hard to account for, but perhaps not more so than any other extreme manifestation of creative genius. Not that there are an awful lot of them as innovative and influential as this singular opera, which is singular because of the peculiar thing it sets out to do.
> 
> Wagner's musical background wasn't extraordinary; he did have some lessons in the usual stuff - harmony, counterpoint, etc. - but as a composer he wasn't precocious or especially individual early on. His "Romantic operas" - _Dutchman, Tannhauser_ and _Lohengrin_ - are wonderful works of great originality, but starting with the _Ring_ his musical imagination began to grow by leaps and bounds, and there is little in his earlier work to prepare us for the novel conception of drama _Tristan_ represents, or for the intense and complex musical language in which that conception is clothed.
> 
> ...


I messed up slightly with my last post (being new to the forum). This is what was missing:
*Thanks for showing up here Woodduck! If it wasn't for your posts I don't think I would have taken the leap to try it.*


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Bumblehorse said:


> Is there any other piece of art so capable of consistently doing what _Tristan_ does to people?


Your detailed post prompted me to give _Tristan _a go this morning. It didn't do much for me, though I've not finished it yet. I'm sure some Wagner fans would acknowledge that there are other classical pieces that do for other listeners do for them what Tristan does for you. Others would swear that there is nothing like it.

Over time, I've found music by Beethoven, Sibelius, Haydn, Vaughan Williams and Debussy particularly moving. Perhaps Wagner will at some point in the future.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Forster said:


> Your detailed post prompted me to give _Tristan _a go this morning. It didn't do much for me, though I've not finished it yet. I'm sure some Wagner fans would acknowledge that there are other classical pieces that do for other listeners do for them what Tristan does for you. Others would swear that there is nothing like it.
> 
> Over time, I've found music by Beethoven, Sibelius, Haydn, Vaughan Williams and Debussy particularly moving. Perhaps Wagner will at some point in the future.


Of Wagner's operas, the one that comes closest to offering an enjoyable listening/viewing experience for me is _Tristan und Isolde_. However, there are other operas which I enjoy more by Verdi, Puccini, Mozart, and Debussy.

However, since this thread is about one person's subjective response, there is no debating his experience and I can only applaud the fact that he has found a piece of music which brought him unmitigated enjoyment.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Forster said:


> Your detailed post prompted me to give _Tristan _a go this morning. It didn't do much for me, though I've not finished it yet.


Listen to it on black vinyl at midnight in the presence of orchid-scented candles. That should do the trick.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Celloman said:


> Listen to it on black vinyl at midnight in the presence of orchid-scented candles. That should do the trick.


I didn't know there were fragrant orchids, but I see that there are. I think Wagner would have liked your idea, since scents and fabrics seemed to stimulate his creativity.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> Probably not, but have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's film _Vertigo_? The score is borderline plagiarised from Wagner, and the whole film has a similarly delirious effect right up to the shock ending.


The Wizard of Oz has many very Wagnerian moments and uses musical themes as Wagner did and it can really get to you as well. I think it could be classified as a great work of art in a different genre, but the music is a huge part of it's power.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

All I know is I have to prepare myself before I listen to it.
And usually an Act at a time.
I love the opera. It's such a journey.
And no matter how many time I listen to it,
a tear always forms in my eyes as the final notes fade away.
That part near the very end where the music stops, just for a second, and all you here is the lonely woodwinds or whatever it is, then the final chord is so touching.


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## Spy Car (Nov 15, 2017)

@Bumblehorse, if you were so moved by Tristan und Isolde--which is understandable, as I feel the same way--I'd suggest that at some point you also take in Parsifal. Another stunning work of genius in my estimation.

Bill


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

Happy to hear that we have another Wagner fan! Tristan is not my personal favorite work by the composer, but I will definitely give it props for its surreal, very chromatic, and intense music. My first reaction to listening to it was not as enthusiastic but after a couple listens I have grown fonder of it. Act II is my personal favorite section. The recording I listen to most often is the Carlos Kleiber recording, which I think is a very well received recording from my research.

Spy Car beat me to it but I also recommend you giving Parsifal a listen as well. It didn't click for me upon first listening to it at the Met a few years back but after revisiting it last year during my Wagner binge, it is one of my personal favorites. Like Tristan, it has very dramatic music that you can really can get lost in. It is further supported by some interesting psychological/philosophical themes surrounding the story that gives the opera another level of intrigue. 

Outside of Wagner, I think you will have to see what catches your ear from other composers that will give you a similar emotional payout. Operas that take me for an emotional ride (not necessarily my favorites but have very moving music) like Tristan or Parsifal by other composers include the following:

1) Der Rosenkavalier, Strauss

2) Otello, Verdi

3) Tosca, Puccini


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The only part that can move me to tears in Tristan is Brangane's Warning, which may be one of the loveliest things in all of opera. An opera that is overly long but that in my opinion has music almost as haunting as Tristan is Berlioz Les Troyens. I love parts of it immensely. Gotterdammerung has music that is as emotional as Tristan to me.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Forster said:


> It didn't do much for me, *though I've not finished it yet*.


I think this may be a _part_ of the reason why.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The Wizard of Oz has many very Wagnerian moments and uses musical themes as Wagner did and it can really get to you as well. I think it could be classified as a great work of art in a different genre, but the music is a huge part of it's power.


So many movie soundtracks from the era bear resemblance to Wagner (think even of the home theme in _Gone with the Wind_ compared to the soothing home-ish motif (probably associated to something I've forgotten about) in _Siegfried_). In fact, especially considering the prominence of the leitmotif technique in early film music, I would say Wagner might have been the most influential composer on film scoring ever.

However, specifically speaking about _Tristan und Isolde_, the Hollywood film track which is closest to it is, in my opinion (and I don't really think its close), the one for _Vertigo_. In addition the movie parallels many themes found in _Tristan und Isolde_; the psychological thriller aspect of the film is, of course, pure Hitchcock, but the deeper thematic undertones about love, pain, ecstasy, death, and eternal longing, along with the striking musical resemblance, point to the deeper fact that (to me at least) there is a very non-superficial influence coming specifically from _Tristan und Isolde_ and not just Wagner's work in general.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

At least for my first listen, I think the themes are what really took the opera to a higher level for me. Specifically in act two, beneath all the day/night love stuff, I cannot help but see themes of the soul's journey and it's inevitable destination of (or rather, eternal yearning for) liberation. I don't believe I am articulate enough to explain how/why and I imagine most of you would consider that a big stretch, but I'm happy to let that be the case.

Thanks for the _Parsifal_ recommendations. From descriptions it seems it is more than just the music. Though there is a time and place for fun stories about two people trying to get married, I would like to see more operas that deal with themes closer to the psyche and spirit, especially considering how much time one must dedicate towards them. Though I say all this, I'm not trying to deny that the music takes priority; this isn't _just_ theater.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BachIsBest said:


> So many movie soundtracks from the era bear resemblance to Wagner (think even of the home theme in _Gone with the Wind_ compared to the soothing home-ish motif (probably associated to something I've forgotten about) in _Siegfried_). In fact, especially considering the prominence of the leitmotif technique in early film music, I would say Wagner might have been the most influential composer on film scoring ever.
> 
> However, specifically speaking about _Tristan und Isolde_, the Hollywood film track which is closest to it is, in my opinion (and I don't really think its close), the one for _Vertigo_. In addition the movie parallels many themes found in _Tristan und Isolde_; the psychological thriller aspect of the film is, of course, pure Hitchcock, but the deeper thematic undertones about love, pain, ecstasy, death, and eternal longing, along with the striking musical resemblance, point to the deeper fact that (to me at least) there is a very non-superficial influence coming specifically from _Tristan und Isolde_ and not just Wagner's work in general.


Bernard Herrmann's yearning, chromatic music for _Vertigo_ is so clearly indebted to _Tristan_, and contributes so much to the effect of the film, that it's hard to imagine any lover of the opera not loving the film as well. It may actually be my very favorite movie. But as you point out, Herrmann and _Vertigo_ are not isolated instances of Wagnerism in film music of the prewar era, or even in film music up to the present day. The 1930s and '4Os saw a migration of composers from Europe to California, many of them German Jews fleeing from an increasingly ominous political situation: Max Steiner (1888-1971), Erich Wolfgang Korngold (1897-1957), Dmitri Tiomkin (1894-1979), Miklós Rózsa (1907-1995), Bronislau Kaper (1902-1983), Franz Waxman (1906-1967), Kurt Weill (1900-1950) - not to mention Rachmaninoff, Schoenberg and Stravinsky - prominent among them. I believe Waxman is responsible for the use of _Tristan_ in the score, and even the story, of the 1946 movie _Humoresque,_ about a composer who drives poor Joan Crawford to drown herself to Isolde's "Liebestod," ravishingly arranged for solo violin and orchestra. I forget who it was that remarked that it was impossible, in the films of that era, to find love music that wasn't indebted to _Tristan und Isolde._


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The problem with doing heroin is you will find afterwards that nothing else in life compares to the experience that heroin gave to you.

I must unfortunately inform you, that by listening to _Tristan und Isolde_, you just did the musical equivalent of heroin. To answer your question, "Does there exist anything in this world like 'Tristan und Isolde'?", the answer is a resounding "*no"*.

_"Even now I am still in search of a work which exercises such a dangerous fascination, such a spine-tingling and blissful infinity as Tristan - I have sought in vain, in every art."_ - Friedrich Nietzsche

The best you can do is listen to Wagner's other mature works. To listen to _Tristan und Isolde_ is to dine with the Devil. If you prefer an audience with God, you should try instead _Parsifal_. And if you want to keep things thoroughly human, then you have _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_. For the interplay between all three, you have _Der Ring des Nibelungen_.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bumblehorse said:


> I have not. In fact, I've hardly watched any cinema. I did like _The Shining_ though.


Kubrick is a lot like Wagner. Not only with his focus on (classical) music, but that his movies are generally slow burns, punctuated by intensely dramatic highs.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Couchie said:


> The problem with doing heroin is you will find afterwards that nothing else in life compares to the experience that heroin gave to you.
> 
> I must unfortunately inform you, that by listening to _Tristan und Isolde_, you just did the musical equivalent of heroin. To answer your question, "Does there exist anything in this world like 'Tristan und Isolde'?", the answer is a resounding "*no"*.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply Couchie, your words are very much to the point.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

BachIsBest said:


> Wagner might have been the most influential composer on film scoring ever.


He absolutely is.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Bumblehorse said:


> I think this may be a _part_ of the reason why.


Well, yes, it's difficult to properly appreciate any piece without completing it in the first place, and my ears, currently attuned to Vaughan Williams, need several listens.

But at present, it offered nothing to keep me going.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Three of the biggest and most influential movies of all times, the first 3 Star Wars Movies, had music composed by the talented John Williams who I think was obviously heavily influenced by Wagner both with leitmotifs and the overall sound, especially Luke's, Leia's and Darth Vader's music. I would contend that the musical score played almost as big a role as the visuals in making them such powerful movies.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Becca said:


> There is no stereo Flagstad recording of Tristan, studio or otherwise.


Well, I did make a boo boo, but what I was referring to was the studio Tristan with Flagstad recorded after recording techniques were greatly improved. She was around 60 but still sounded better than almost anyone else. It is still being sold after over 60 years and is considered the best Tristan by some noteworthy critics. It is the only Tristan by Flagstad recorded from tapes instead of 78's with a very marked improvement in sound ( she is widely considered the greatest Isolde of all time) and the fact that it has Furtwangler was a very big selling point. In my memory the bit about it being from tapes got mixed up with stereo. Sorry.https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isolde-Suthaus-Flagstad-Thebom/dp/B00005MIZN


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well, I did make a boo boo, but what I was referring to was the studio Tristan with Flagstad recorded after recording techniques were greatly improved. She was around 60 but still sounded better than almost anyone else. It is still being sold after over 60 years and is considered the best Tristan by some noteworthy critics. It is the only Tristan by Flagstad recorded from tapes instead of 78's with a very marked improvement in sound ( she is widely considered the greatest Isolde of all time) and the fact that it has Furtwangler was a very big selling point. In my memory the bit about it being from tapes got mixed up with stereo. Sorry.https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isolde-Suthaus-Flagstad-Thebom/dp/B00005MIZN


Though Schwarzkopf had to sing her top Cs for her, worth it just to get Flagstad's Isolde in fairly decent sound.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well, I did make a boo boo, but what I was referring to was the studio Tristan with Flagstad recorded after recording techniques were greatly improved. She was around 60 but still sounded better than almost anyone else. It is still being sold after over 60 years and is considered the best Tristan by some noteworthy critics. It is the only Tristan by Flagstad recorded from tapes instead of 78's with a very marked improvement in sound ( she is widely considered the greatest Isolde of all time) and the fact that it has Furtwangler was a very big selling point. In my memory the bit about it being from tapes got mixed up with stereo. Sorry.https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isolde-Suthaus-Flagstad-Thebom/dp/B00005MIZN


Flagstad was 57. The high notes had become a bit effortful, but unlike any 57-year-old Isolde of today (are there any?) there's no screaming or wobbling. It remains in many ways a great recording - Furtwangler does some magical things no one else can do (Brangaene's warning alone is worth the price of admission) - but to hear Flagstad's Isolde at its fresh and impassioned best we have to go to the several live recordings from the '30s and '40s. She and Melchior toss off Act 2 as if it were _The Sound of Music._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Though Schwarzkopf had to sing her top Cs for her, worth it just to get Flagstad's Isolde in fairly decent sound.


On one of those top Cs the splice is imperfect and obvious, but I'd imagine no one cares.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad was 57. The high notes had become a bit effortful, but unlike any 57-year-old Isolde of today (are there any?) there's no screaming or wobbling. It remains in many ways a great recording - Furtwangler does some magical things no one else can do (Brangaene's warning alone is worth the price of admission) - but to hear Flagstad's Isolde at its fresh and impassioned best we have to go to the several live recordings from the '30s and '40s. She and Melchior toss off Act 2 as if it were _The Sound of Music._


She still was wonderful at 57 on the all important high notes in Isolde's Curse and Swartzkopf was not needed on that scene. 2 high C's by a fill in singer does not diminish the rest of Flagstad's performance here. I used to have her and Melchior's Tristan on CD conducted by Fritz Reiner. I haven't heard it in 20 years but I WORE that version out!!! God, they were both amazing! From 
1936 and recorded live. Woodduck, you are right, you need to hear them at their peak even though the sound is not perfect. I am going to revisit this recording this week.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Here is the Flagstad/Melchior _Tristan_ recording from 1936 if anyone wants to listen to it:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bumblehorse said:


> At least for my first listen, I think the themes are what really took the opera to a higher level for me. Specifically in act two, beneath all the day/night love stuff, I cannot help but see themes of the soul's journey and it's inevitable destination of (or rather, eternal yearning for) liberation. I don't believe I am articulate enough to explain how/why and I imagine most of you would consider that a big stretch, but I'm happy to let that be the case.


That's not "a big stretch" at all. That is exactly the level at which Wagner operates. Shallower minds subject Wagner to all sorts of political, social, and racial interpretations (including, unfortunately, most contemporary stage directors), but Wagner is really for the metaphysical wanderers and soul-searchers.

The development of the soul, consciousness, and liberation/redemption are even more the subject of _Parsifal_. _Parsifal_ also reflects Wagner's mature and final statement on the matter (which is significantly more cheerful), _Tristan_ was written at a very pessimistic and low point of his life. _Tristan_ is more passionate, but _Parsifal_ is more sublime.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Hopefully this chart will entertain you for a while.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Couchie said:


> That's not "a big stretch" at all. That is exactly the level at which Wagner operates. Shallower minds subject Wagner to all sorts of political, social, and racial interpretations (including, unfortunately, most contemporary stage directors), but Wagner is really for the metaphysical wanderers and soul-searchers.
> 
> The development of the soul, consciousness, and liberation/redemption are even more the subject of _Parsifal_. _Parsifal_ also reflects Wagner's mature and final statement on the matter (which is significantly more cheerful), _Tristan_ was written at a very pessimistic and low point of his life. _Tristan_ is more passionate, but _Parsifal_ is more sublime.


Thank you Couchie, I'm glad I'm not alone.

I finally understand the appeal of opera now. Even compared to program music, opera simply has the upper hand in being able to explicitly communicate subject matter.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Does there exist anything in this world like _Tristan und Isolde_?

No.

And while I am listening to it, _I_ cease to exist.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Celloman said:


> Does there exist anything in this world like _Tristan und Isolde_?
> 
> No.
> 
> And while I am listening to it, _I_ cease to exist.



_O sink hernieder,_
_Nacht der Liebe,_
_gib Vergessen,_
_dass ich lebe;_
_nimm mich auf_
_in deinen Schoss,_
_löse von_
_der Welt mich los!__Descend,_
_O Night of love,_
_grant oblivion_
_that I may live;_
_take me up_
_into your bosom,_
_release me from_
_the world!_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Celloman said:


> Does there exist anything in this world like _Tristan und Isolde_?
> 
> No.
> 
> And while I am listening to it, _I_ cease to exist.


Nichr mehr Celloman...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Nichr mehr Celloman...


What does "nichr" mean?

It means I should have gone to bed before I was too tired to proofread.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Celloman said:


> Does there exist anything in this world like _Tristan und Isolde_?
> 
> No.
> 
> And while I am listening to it, _I_ cease to exist.


I say yes!! _Parsifal_.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Tristan is a masterpiece, so there's nothing quite like it -- that's true of all masterpieces. There are one or two other operas that have the effect on me that you describe. _Il tabarro_ is one of them. I find the music like a drug. If you listen to it casually it might seem less inspired because it is less ostentatiously melodic than, say, Butterfly. But it is much better, imho, and I can't listen to it too close to bed or I will be unable to fall asleep. Something about the music sets my nervous system on fire, and I remember one time I was listening to this less than one hour opera for hours, totally unaware of what time or day it was, when I was so stirred that after one particularly intense downbeat my heart actually did skip a beat. I had to take a break and stop listening to calm down. The love duets between Giorgetta and Luigi and the un-love duet between Giorgetta and Michele are especially inflaming. There's something about the longing in those duets that drives right past longing and into abject desperation, and I can't get enough of it whenever I'm listening to it.

_La fanciulla del west_ has sometimes had a similar effect on me, although after listening to Tabarro I feel like I'm drowning at the bottom of the Seine, whereas with Fanciulla I feel refreshed and, dare I say, redeemed, at least temporarily. Still, it has caused it's fair share of insomnia, and the last time I listened/watched it (I had intended to watch a few minutes, and watched two hours) I ended up weeping (not just crying) for at least 20 minutes when it was done.

The only other music that has this sort of effect on me is Bach's St. Matthew Passion, especially the recitative and aria Aus liebe, and some of the spectacular choral passages. Aus Liebe in particular has the same sort of effect as Minnie's last aria and ensemble from Fanciulla. I could listen to it forever. Am I the only one whose favorite classical composers are Bach and Puccini?


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

I finished _Parsifal_... It took me till act three before it really made sense (musically as well), but in the end I liked it. I feel like act one could of over all had slightly more **umph** to it, but I won't hold my criticisms so seriously until I spend some more time with the piece.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Tristan is a masterpiece, so there's nothing quite like it -- that's true of all masterpieces. There are one or two other operas that have the effect on me that you describe. _Il tabarro_ is one of them. I find the music like a drug. If you listen to it casually it might seem less inspired because it is less ostentatiously melodic than, say, Butterfly. But it is much better, imho, and I can't listen to it too close to bed or I will be unable to fall asleep. Something about the music sets my nervous system on fire, and I remember one time I was listening to this less than one hour opera for hours, totally unaware of what time or day it was, when I was so stirred that after one particularly intense downbeat my heart actually did skip a beat. I had to take a break and stop listening to calm down. The love duets between Giorgetta and Luigi and the un-love duet between Giorgetta and Michele are especially inflaming. There's something about the longing in those duets that drives right past longing and into abject desperation, and I can't get enough of it whenever I'm listening to it.
> 
> _La fanciulla del west_ has sometimes had a similar effect on me, although after listening to Tabarro I feel like I'm drowning at the bottom of the Seine, whereas with Fanciulla I feel refreshed and, dare I say, redeemed, at least temporarily. Still, it has caused it's fair share of insomnia, and the last time I listened/watched it (I had intended to watch a few minutes, and watched two hours) I ended up weeping (not just crying) for at least 20 minutes when it was done.
> 
> The only other music that has this sort of effect on me is Bach's St. Matthew Passion, especially the recitative and aria Aus liebe, and some of the spectacular choral passages. Aus Liebe in particular has the same sort of effect as Minnie's last aria and ensemble from Fanciulla. I could listen to it forever. Am I the only one whose favorite classical composers are Bach and Puccini?


While they are not my absolute favourite composers, I do also adore Puccini and Bach. _Erbame dich_ from St. Matthew Passion is one piece of music that I love with all my heart. I love it even more when it is performed by Christa Ludwig!






I would like to know which recordings of these works you prefer (_Il Tabarro_, _La fanciulla _ and _St. Matthew Passion_). I am always on the look out for great recordings.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bumblehorse said:


> I finished _Parsifal_... It took me till act three before it really made sense (musically as well), but in the end I liked it. I feel like act one could of over all had slightly more **umph** to it, but I won't hold my criticisms so seriously until I spend some more time with the piece.


I'm not sure if Parsifal will ever make "sense" to you. If you have made sense of Parsifal, surely life itself is no longer a mystery to you.

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole that is Parsifal: https://www.monsalvat.no/menu.htm


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

For Il tabarro I consider Clara Petrella the best Giogetta on record:









Pappano's conducting on his recording is excellent, and the orchestral playing and recording is by far the best I've heard. The Giorgetta of Maria Guleghina is very shrill, and Neil Shicoff is weak as Luigi.

For Fanciulla, there are a lot of great recordings, but I really like this film with Frazzoni:




None of the singers are my top choice in the role, but they all do very well and sing well together.

I like the Tebaldi/Barioni broadcast:





and the Mitropoulos recording from Florence is amazing.

For St. Matthew Passion, as you might expect I'm not exactly looking for modern historically informed snoozefests. The Mengelberg is phenomenally dramatic and very well sung. There's also a good recording from Hans Weisbach with some great singers like Klose and Schoffler.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Couchie said:


> I'm not sure if Parsifal will ever make "sense" to you. If you have made sense of Parsifal, surely life itself is no longer a mystery to you.
> 
> If you really want to go down the rabbit hole that is Parsifal: https://www.monsalvat.no/menu.htm


Maybe I should have said something like "I began to understand its appeal".

Do you know of any other comprehensive sites like that for his other works?


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## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

It's like watching paint dry. 

I fell asleep, got woken up by a loud bit, and fell asleep again.

For all of his virtues, Wagner is never known for brevity.

No, can't stand it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bumblehorse said:


> Maybe I should have said something like "I began to understand its appeal".
> 
> Do you know of any other comprehensive sites like that for his other works?


How can you think of "other works" when you don't understand the separation of spear and grail and their glorious reunion? Heathen.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Couchie said:


> How can you think of "other works" when you don't understand the separation of spear and grail and their glorious reunion? Heathen.


What about the separation of Tristan and Isolde and their glorious reunion?


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Is Wagner special in that there is so much written about his works and their interpretations? The closest I have seen is people trying explain how X composer inspired the next hundred years of music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bumblehorse said:


> Is Wagner special in that there is so much written about his works and their interpretations? The closest I have seen is people trying explain how X composer inspired the next hundred years of music.


Your question almost answers itself. If Wagner were not special - distinctive in various ways - he wouldn't have been written about so extensively. His works have musical, dramatic, philosophical, psychological and cultural/historical interest that inspires continual revisiting and reinterpreting, and the books and studies continue to be published. Wagner is a major figure in Western culture whose impact and influence on various aspects of culture - not only music - was enormous in his time, echoes even down to our time, and will remain a subject of inquiry.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Your question almost answers itself. If Wagner were not special - distinctive in various ways - he wouldn't have been written about so extensively. His works have musical, dramatic, philosophical, psychological and cultural/historical interest that inspires continual revisiting and reinterpreting, and the books and studies continue to be published. Wagner is a major figure in Western culture whose impact and influence on various aspects of culture - not only music - was enormous in his time, echoes even down to our time, and will remain a subject of inquiry.


I'd say more than _echoes _in present times - powerful resonance in terms of the ultimate impossibility between love and power .........


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## McCall3 (Nov 18, 2020)

I just finished watching Tristan and Isolde for the first time, absolutely beautiful. I have a question though, does Isolde actually die at the very end or not? In reading up a little it looks like some say she does and some say she doesn’t. Do we know, or is it up for interpretation?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Your question almost answers itself. If Wagner were not special - distinctive in various ways - he wouldn't have been written about so extensively. His works have musical, dramatic, philosophical, psychological and cultural/historical interest that inspires continual revisiting and reinterpreting, and the books and studies continue to be published. Wagner is a major figure in Western culture whose impact and influence on various aspects of culture - not only music - was enormous in his time, echoes even down to our time, and will remain a subject of inquiry.


All true, but I can't help wondering had Wagner been a "normal" composer, he would have written _The Nibelung's Ring_ as a four act opera. Each of the four operas could have been condensed into four 30 minute acts.

That said, I do enjoy them as they are.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> All true, but I can't help wondering had Wagner been a "normal" composer, he would have written _The Nibelung's Ring_ as a four act opera. Each of the four operas could have been condensed into four 30 minute acts.
> 
> That said, I do enjoy them as they are.


Actually, they could be condensed even further into Cliff's Notes. I guess it just depends on how much of the music one enjoys, which may depend on how much padding one has on one's backside.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

McCall3 said:


> I just finished watching Tristan and Isolde for the first time, absolutely beautiful. I have a question though, does Isolde actually die at the very end or not? In reading up a little it looks like some say she does and some say she doesn't. Do we know, or is it up for interpretation?


The libretto isn't explicit about it, and in some modern productions she seems not to die, but the whole point of the story, not to mention dramatic coherence, is lost if she lives. Dying with Tristan is what she wants. What sort of life would she have after losing him? Were there convents to retire to? On the level of symbolism, death in Wagner's mythos represents transformation, and that is what Isolde's words clearly describe. She doesn't sink down into "highest bliss" only to get up again, dust off her smock, and trundle off to catch the next boat back to Cornwall.The stage directions say that "Marke blesses the bodies" - an odd way to refer to a living person. Wagner speaks of her death in a letter to Liszt, and it was Liszt who first called her final aria _Liebestod_ - "love-death" - with Wagner's approval.

Everything points to her dying.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

McCall3 said:


> I just finished watching Tristan and Isolde for the first time, absolutely beautiful. I have a question though, does Isolde actually die at the very end or not? In reading up a little it looks like some say she does and some say she doesn't. Do we know, or is it up for interpretation?


I think it is deliberately left a little vague so the audience can decide whether Isolde dies, is reborn, or is simply delusional.


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## McCall3 (Nov 18, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> The libretto isn't explicit about it, and in some modern productions she seems not to die, but the whole point of the story, not to mention dramatic coherence, is lost if she lives. Dying with Tristan is what she wants. What sort of life would she have after losing him? Were there convents to retire to? On the level of symbolism, death in Wagner's mythos represents transformation, and that is what Isolde's words clearly describe. She doesn't sink down into "highest bliss" only to get up again, dust off her smock, and trundle off to catch the next boat back to Cornwall.The stage directions say that "Marke blesses the bodies" - an odd way to refer to a living person. Wagner speaks of her death in a letter to Liszt, and it was Liszt who first called her final aria _Liebestod_ - "love-death" - with Wagner's approval.
> 
> Everything points to her dying.





Couchie said:


> I think it is deliberately left a little vague so the audience can decide whether Isolde dies, is reborn, or is simply delusional.


Thanks! I think it makes the most sense thematically if she dies along with Tristan.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> All true, but I can't help wondering had Wagner been a "normal" composer, he would have written _The Nibelung's Ring_ as a four act opera. Each of the four operas could have been condensed into four 30 minute acts.


Das Rheingold should have been a ballet actually, and Wotan's Farewell would have been better set as a Verdian Oom-Pah-Pah


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

McCall3 said:


> Thanks! I think it makes the most sense thematically if she dies along with Tristan.


It's also consistent with all the versions of the tale preceding Wagner's from the Middle Ages on. To have Isolde live on after experiencing ten minutes of hallucination is terribly unromantic, more 1950s than 1850s, much less 1150s.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Yes, she dies.
But some of us believe there's something after death.


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## McCall3 (Nov 18, 2020)

Itullian said:


> Yes, she dies.
> But some of us believe there's something after death.


Yes, we do, myself included.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Yes, she dies.
> But some of us believe there's something after death.


And, of course, some of us don't!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> And, of course, some of us don't!


Oh, there's something...

Recycling, I suspect.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Oh, there's something...
> 
> Recycling, I suspect.


Ha. To me it is irrelevant as I have had a wonderful life so I don't need an afterlife. But since it is fiction, let's give it to them LOL


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> When I first heard it I couldn't stop listening to it, and sometimes I felt as if I were sinking into a deep abyss from which I would never return. At other times I felt as if I were committing a terrible sin by letting anything so ungodly affect me so powerfully.


I just listened to _Tristan_ again -_- Your words have come back to haunt me. It's like I disease I don't want cured.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Oh, there's something...
> 
> Recycling, I suspect.


Now don't you go telling me I have to keep doing that in the afterlife!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bumblehorse said:


> I just listened to _Tristan_ again -_- Your words have come back to haunt me. It's like I disease I don't want cured.


It has to run its course. The high fever is a sign that your immune system is working. The malady may eventually be replaced by _Parsifal, _which is a gentler way to die.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bumblehorse said:


> I just listened to _Tristan_ again -_- Your words have come back to haunt me. It's like I disease I don't want cured.


Your struggle reminds me of a post I made 10 years ago: Tristan und Isolde Addiction :lol:

I don't think it's at all really unhealthy to be passionate about the most passionate music ever written. I also understand those who dismiss it entirely as being "too much". It's the ones who claim to merely _enjoy_ it, like it's light entertainment by any other composer, that I worry about.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Your struggle reminds me of a post I made 10 years ago: Tristan und Isolde Addiction :lol:
> 
> I don't think it's at all really unhealthy to be passionate about the most passionate music ever written. I also understand those who dismiss it entirely as being "too much". It's the ones who claim to merely _enjoy_ it, like it's light entertainment by any other composer, that I worry about.


That thread is worth a revisit. I've enjoyed it during my morning coffee.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> That thread is worth a revisit. I've enjoyed it during my morning coffee.


I always enjoy cringing at my old posts. :tiphat:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

One of the most famous musical aspects of Tristan und Isolde is the so-called "Tristan chord," which is heard in the very first seconds of the prelude. These notes create a harmonic equivalent to the agitation and anxiousness of the lovers, never finding harmony (or harmonic resolution) until the end of the opera when the lovers find peace only in death. "Love Night and Transfiguration" is an amalgamation of dramatic music from the opera. How this version came to be is an interesting saga.

*"Franz Liszt created a concert hall work [in which he joined the beginning and end of the opera], his so-called 'Prelude and Liebestod' - which was never approved by Wagner. Furthermore, the title 'Liebestod' was misused by Liszt: that is actually the name which Wagner gave to the prelude, not the end of his opera, which he called 'Transfiguration' (Verklärung)," relates John Mauceri, who has edited the version we hear tonight.*

"In the 1930s, Leopold Stokowski, then music director of the Philadelphia Orchestra, created an orchestral work based on the Love Night from the end of Act Two. It ended as the second act ends, with the shocking entrance of King Mark, Isolde's husband. (In the opera, the audience must wait another hour or so for the love music to find its conclusion, with Isolde's Transfiguration *(the misnamed 'Liebestod').*

_Composer Dave Kopplin, who holds a Ph.D. from UCLA, is Publications Coordinator for the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Hollywood Bowl. He also is a lecturer in music at Loyola Marymount University.
_
Read the whole article here:
https://www.hollywoodbowl.com/musicdb/pieces/4332/transfiguration-from-tristan-und-isolde


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> I always enjoy cringing at my old posts.


You're just too adorable. _Adoraaable._ You know that, right?


Couchie said:


> I didn't touch Wagner for the first 10 years of my listening. He resided in the shadows waiting for me, until I was ready.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> You're just too adorable. _Adoraaable._ You know that, right?


I do know. Like Kundry, this hunk of green blob seduces all the boys and girls


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I do know. Like Kundry, this hunk of green blob seduces all the boys and girls


Kundry is a bisexual pedophile? 

Do not send your kids to Klingsor's Day Care.


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

Well, after having watched _Der Ring_ last weekend all I need to do is take in _Meistersinger_ tomorrow and I will have watched/heard all of Richard's mature works. I have to say, it sure is a pleasure entering into artistic enlightenment with you all. :tiphat:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bumblehorse said:


> Well, after having watched _Der Ring_ last weekend all I need to do is take in _Meistersinger_ tomorrow and I will have watched/heard all of Richard's mature works. I have to say, it sure is a pleasure entering into artistic enlightenment with you all. :tiphat:


Welcome to the 'Dark side'.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Kundry is a bisexual pedophile?
> 
> Do not send your kids to Klingsor's Day Care.


Don't give whoever next directs Parsifal at Bayreuth ideas!

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Don't give whoever next directs Parsifal at Bayreuth ideas!
> 
> N.


They've already made Kundry a crocodile. A bisexual pedophile would be an improvement.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> A bisexual pedophile would be an improvement.


This quote looks very bad taken out of context.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BachIsBest said:


> This quote looks very bad taken out of context.


So why are you quoting it out of context?


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> So why are you quoting it out of context?


Because sometimes one posts late at night and wakes up the next morning having no idea why said post was made. As in, if I could delete the post I would, because it is definitely a dumb post.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BachIsBest said:


> Because sometimes one posts late at night and wakes up the next morning having no idea why said post was made. As in, if I could delete the post I would, because it is definitely a dumb post.


:lol:

It's 12:36 AM here, and I need to get to bed. I hope this post still looks good when I get up tomorrow.


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