# Haydn and Schumann - parallels?



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Hello all,

we all know of Schumann's somewhat disparaging remarks about Haydn. But I swear, I get a similar kick out of both composers - maybe it's the 'theoretical'/'analytical' aspect of their work? Both seemed to have a knack for 'playing around' with theory, especially with musical fragments. I also find Schumann's piano work to have a certain wittiness to it that reminds me of Haydn. Anyone have similar reactions to both composers?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Can't say I find any parallels between them. Actually, I think of them as opposites. Haydn is a role-model of mental health while Schumann teeters on the edge of reality; it shows in their music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

They were both men, so much for the parallels. One sane, the other insane. One had a superiority complex and wasn't afraid to express it. The other knew how to be more humble and play the game, even though in private, he definitely knew his true worth.

Two more opposite composers did not exist.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Well, I wasn't talking about their personalities - the music! I hear similarities. This would actually make sense, since Schumann saw Beethoven as a musical role-model and used some of his techniques, but a lot of what Beethoven did was influenced by Haydn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sorry. I do not hear any musical similarities. Now Mozart, he did write beautifully for the _clara_-net....


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I think that they both can show a beautiful restraint. Of course it's a different kind of restraint, but I feel it's there. They don't wear their hearts on their sleeves.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> I think that they both can show a beautiful restraint. Of course it's a different kind of restraint, but I feel it's there. They don't wear their hearts on their sleeves.


Finally, the first person to see some similarities. But c'mon, don't you hear it - in Schumann's more 'academic' moments? Sounds very similar to Haydn's experiments to me.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm not sure I dare use such words ("theoretical", "analytical"), due to my inadequate grasp of music theory.  But when I read the OP, I instantly felt it in my belly that there's something there, this guy is onto something. But I couldn't find other words than "restraint" for my feelings.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> I'm not sure I dare use such words ("theoretical", "analytical"), due to my inadequate grasp of music theory.  But when I read the OP, I instantly felt it in my belly that there's something there, this guy is onto something. But I couldn't find other words than "restraint" for my feelings.


Hehe, it's great to compare the impressions - it's so subjective, yet it seems almost objective to me - I sometimes find myself listening to a Schumann fragment and saying, 'wait, I've heard that in a Haydn sonata' - for example:

Schumann - Davidsbündlertänze, 2nd piece - that same interval, if I'm not mistaken, was in Haydn's C minor sonata (1st movement, in the slow part with the two notes resounding).


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I actually think that both Schumann symphonies 2 and 4 have much that sounds reminiscent of Haydn in them. I think the slow intros to both, though harmonically more of the romantic idiom, remind one of late Haydn, like symphony 99, 101 or 104, and Beethoven's 4th.

But more specifically, the London symphony horn theme is actually in the slow intro to Schumann's 2nd.

I always thought Haydn 104 and Schumann 2 would be a great concert or recording pairing, and someone else has apparently done this already:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Additionally, I can think of one notable Schumann-esque moment that I heard in a Haydn symphony. Symphony 102 in B flat major, which is a fantastic symphony that people should know, has a cadence in F major that sounds like the cadence that Schumann loves to do in so many of his orchestral pieces, especially in the Spring Symphony.

Compare 3:04-3:07 in Haydn 102: 




to a great many Schumann cadences. To me it just has that Schumann signature. There are other instances of Haydn anticipating other romantic composers in his later symphonies, which I always enjoy.

Anyway, its funny that you made this thread, because I was thinking about this same thing a few months ago. The question is whether Schumann learned from Haydn, or whether there is just a certain coincidence of vibes in the music. At any rate, the horn theme in Schumann 2 and the way its used does really seem to point to Haydn 104.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Hehe, it's great to compare the impressions - it's so subjective, yet it seems almost objective to me - I sometimes find myself listening to a Schumann fragment and saying, 'wait, I've heard that in a Haydn sonata' - for


I used to get this a lot when I listened to Beethoven. I'd hear a clever doodad, and think "wait, Haydn did that." I don't know why it was always Haydn that I kept referring back to... maybe he was just that inventive, and so close to Beethoven anyway.

But I still have many o' times where I've heard something else clever by Beethoven and think "wait, nobody did that."


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I find the composers very different. I would agree any similarities likely come from the fact that Beethoven was very influenced by Haydn and Schumann was in turn very influenced by Beethoven. Generally, I find Schumann all over the map and quite diverse, sometimes I can hear definite influences of Chopin and Beethoven in his works, sometimes I find it hard to place exactly what I'm hearing. It seems to me as though he sometimes did wear his heart on his sleeve and sometimes he didn't. He was a very mercurial composer. 

Haydn sounds to me very much the same in virtually all of his works. The people who like his works seem to love him and to love all of his works. Yes he had his brighter works and the moodier Sturm and Drang pieces, but aside from that you don't see him shaking things up too much. He was a great composer in terms of his very tight structures, his wit and innovations, but to me in an artistic sense he was a little weaker. Whereas Schumann's music is generally not quite as "tight", but artistically and in terms of diversity, and depth I find him more interesting.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

I noticed this, too, actually. They have that unique sound that belongs to only the very best of the second tier composers.


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

^ Haydn and Schumann as "second tier composers", lol...


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

tdc said:


> I find the composers very different. I would agree any similarities likely come from the fact that Beethoven was very influenced by Haydn and Schumann was in turn very influenced by Beethoven. Generally, I find Schumann all over the map and quite diverse, sometimes I can hear definite influences of Chopin and Beethoven in his works, sometimes I find it hard to place exactly what I'm hearing. It seems to me as though he sometimes did wear his heart on his sleeve and sometimes he didn't. He was a very mercurial composer.
> 
> Haydn sounds to me very much the same in virtually all of his works. The people who like his works seem to love him and to love all of his works. Yes he had his brighter works and the moodier Sturm and Drang pieces, but aside from that you don't see him shaking things up too much. He was a great composer in terms of his very tight structures, his wit and innovations, but to me in an artistic sense he was a little weaker. Whereas Schumann's music is generally not quite as "tight", but artistically and in terms of diversity, and depth I find him more interesting.


I definitely don't hear how Haydn's works all sound the same. On the one hand, you have his darker, more baroque-edged 'Strum und Drang' style pieces, on the other, as you've mentioned, joyous and colourful pieces like The Creation or the Harmony Mass. Plenty of variety in my books - and I think each composer had their own special techniques which they used all throughout their pieces - this is normal.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

trazom said:


> I noticed this, too, actually. They have that unique sound that belongs to only the very best of the second tier composers.


Oh dear, oh dear! 'Second-tier composers'?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

tdc said:


> Haydn sounds to me very much the same in virtually all of his works.


Wow! That is an astonishing claim. 

The String Quartets and 'The Creation', the piano trios and the Masses, the piano sonatas and the symphonies, the cello concertos and the baryton trios .... these sound 'very much the same' to you?

So be it, but speaking for myself, there's plenty enough of difference, high quality and sublety in the hundred or more 90 Haydn discs that I have on my shelves to keep me going for a while


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Wow! That is an astonishing claim.
> 
> The String Quartets and 'The Creation', the piano trios and the Masses, the piano sonatas and the symphonies, the cello concertos and the baryton trios .... these sound 'very much the same' to you?
> 
> So be it, but speaking for myself, there's plenty enough of difference, high quality and sublety in the hundred or more 90 Haydn discs that I have on my shelves to keep me going for a while


Those works all do sound too much the same to me, yes. I'm sure there are differences the Haydn connoisseurs hear, there is not enough difference in _inner content_, as far as I can tell, he wades in a pretty shallow pool. For the most part I agree with Schumann's opinion on Haydn. I like to listen to a Haydn Piano Sonata or a String Quartet on the odd occasion, its nicely put together music, with some beautiful passages. But the extent that many listen to him on these forums I couldn't fathom doing. To each their own.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Haydn's music is delightful, Schumann's is miserable. They are both great, obviously.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'll have to listen with an ear toward similarities next time I hear Schumann. His music is hard for me to focus on sometimes in his bewildering fog of notes, but I can't rule out the possibility. Sometimes Ligeti reminds me of Monteverdi.

I was unaware of Schumann disparaging Haydn's music. What was his beef with it?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Weston said:


> I was unaware of Schumann disparaging Haydn's music. What was his beef with it?


Schumann quote on Haydn:

"...an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yeah. The composer of the supreme "The Creation" second tier? The composer of the Fantasie in C, Symphonic Etudes and Frauenliebe und Leben, second tier? What a joke!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

tdc said:


> Schumann quote on Haydn:
> 
> "...an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us."


This hardly qualifies as disparaging. In fact, it sounds welcoming and respectful - but like Schumann felt he understood Haydn too well and too comprehensively.

I don't hear any similarities between the work of these two composers, or no more than any other two composers of contiguous eras chosen at random.


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