# Musical Black Spots - Masterpieces that you Hate/Non-Plussed.



## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

What acknowledged classical music masterpiece do you either hate or are completely non-plussed by.

This work cannot be from a period or genre that you already hate, otherwise I personally would include every English composer from Purcell to Bax, as well as the entire canon of Italian opera.

No, it must be a work that you are willing to acknowledge from an objective perspective is a masterpiece, and yet…

N.B. This has nothing to do with individual recordings, it's about the compositional work itself!

My own personal bete noire is…









Not only does it leave me cold, I cannot even remember how it sounds; and yet I must have heard it played in its entirety a dozen times…

As us bounders in matters of the heart have been known to say: "It's not you Sergei, it's me!"


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I agree concerning Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony and would add Tchaikovsky's 6th - masterpieces that I want nothing to do with.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Bulldog said:


> I agree concerning Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony and would add Tchaikovsky's 6th - masterpieces that I want nothing to do with.


I listened again this week for the umpteenth time to Previn's '72 recording (as I saw it topping some 20th Century poll), and I found myself saying, oh this is the bit I should find emotionally fulfilling, and felt… as Conor McGregor says: "Absolutely, Nathin!"


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm sorry, but it's a bit sad to focus on anything you hate...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> What acknowledged classical music masterpiece do you either hate or are completely non-plussed by.


I'm afraid I don't qualify for this survey - I have a problem with the question asked - if I think the piece stinks, then I can't consider it a masterpiece....
That said - I concur completely with your choice - Rachmaninoff Sym #2 is a work that I do not like at all....I dislike playing it, or listening to it. it is not a masterpiece.... the only problem with the cuts to this score, as far as I'm concerned, is that they are nowhere near extensive enough!! [about 58' should be cut!!] :lol::lol::devil:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I'm sorry, but it's a bit sad to focus on anything you hate...


That's the reason I avoid works I dislike.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I'm sorry, but it's a bit sad to focus on anything you hate...


Read my above post again, Hegge. It's not only about hate, it's about misunderstanding, confusion and enquiry about how certain "masterpieces" find and hold their place within the canon…


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I agree concerning Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony and would add Tchaikovsky's 6th - masterpieces that I want nothing to do with.


For me, it's Tchaik 4 and 5....but I freely admit that overexposure to these as an orchestra musician has no doubt affected my viewpoint....


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I also would be well satisfied if I could guarantee I'd never hear Rachmaninov's Second Symphony ever again. I'd add in his Second Piano Concerto as well to the "please, no more" list. Also Howard Hanson's Second Symphony, ironically entitled "Romantic," could be added to the list. But the the OP is asking about "masterpieces," which admittedly requires quite a stretch to include Rachmaninov's works mentioned above, but certainly excludes Hanson's, which is a wretched heap of derivative and badly orchestrated garbage.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> For me, it's Tchaik 4 and 5....but I freely admit that overexposure to these as an orchestra musician has no doubt affected my viewpoint....


Actually, nothing from Tchaikovsky turns me on except for the 1812 overture (personal reasons).


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Heck148 said:


> For me, it's Tchaik 4 and 5....but I freely admit that overexposure to these as an orchestra musician has no doubt affected my viewpoint....


Society must acknowledge the debt we owe to long suffering musicians, who must play neo-classical garbage and film scores by luddites like Zimmer and Williams…

All the while, men like me - who wouldn't know a quaver from a prawn cocktail flavoured crisp of the same name - sit back and contemplate our navels…


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Knorf said:


> I also would be well satisfied if I could guarantee I'd never hear Rachmaninov's Second Symphony ever again. I'd add in his Second Piano Concerto as well to the "please, no more" list. Also Howard Hanson's Second Symphony, ironically entitled "Romantic," could be added to the list. But the the OP is asking about "masterpieces," which admittedly requires quite a stretch to include Rachmaninov's works mentioned above, but certainly excludes Hanson's, which is a wretched heap of derivative and badly orchestrated garbage.


I'm beginning to think I was right to leave Sergei after our multiple failed attempts at coitus.

The man is a mere mortal… Schnittke, Scriabin and Shostakovich are the men for me!


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Read my above post again, Hegge. It's not only about hate, it's about misunderstanding, confusion and enquiry about how certain "masterpieces" find and hold their place within the canon…


Then so, I avoid Wagner, but still, why wonder about it?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

To be fair, there are other pieces by Rachmaninov I think are terrific, such as the _All-Night Vigil_, _The Bells_, _Symphonic Dances_, _The Isle of the Dead_... And in general I regard Rachmaninov as a top-tier choral composer.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> Actually, nothing from Tchaikovsky turns me on except for the 1812 overture (personal reasons).


I thought you were apolitical.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Then so, I avoid Wagner, but still, why wonder about it?


Why wonder about it, Hegge?

My man, you're missing out on the greatest librettist and writer of overtures that ever lived!

I think you need a period of quiet reflection to address this yawning chasm in your aural experiences…

To avoid Wagner is to avoid pain, regret and a desire for a better future where Rhein-maidens rule!


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Why wonder about it, Hegge?
> 
> My man, you're missing out on the greatest librettist and writer of overtures that ever lived!
> 
> ...


Did you say Rhein-maidens??


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> To avoid Wagner is to avoid pain, regret and a desire for a better future where Rhein-maidens rule!


You know, you sound a lot like this guy (not that it's a bad thing):










Couchie said:


> Wagner is a desert oasis. Beyond him, you eat sand.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Knorf said:


> To be fair, there are other pieces by Rachmaninov I think are terrific, such as the _All-Night Vigil_, _The Bells_, _Symphonic Dances_, _The Isle of the Dead_... And in general I regard Rachmaninov as a top-tier choral composer.


Agreed. I love them all too. I even enjoy his 2nd piano sonata. It's just that damn 2nd symphony & 2nd piano concerto!


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Did you say Rhein-maidens??


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinemaidens


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> You know, you sound a lot like this guy (not that it's a bad thing):


Every human trait, positive or negative, finds human form in the operas of the German Master…


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinemaidens


...so I don't like Rhinemaidens either...


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> ...so I don't like Rhinemaidens either...


You'll need to take that one up with your therapist, Hegge…


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> I also would be well satisfied if I could guarantee I'd never hear Rachmaninov's Second Symphony ever again. I'd add in his Second Piano Concerto as well to the "please, no more" list.


Aye, Aye, Mate!!



> Also Howard Hanson's Second Symphony, ironically entitled "Romantic," could be added to the list.


Hanson #2 is ok, not his best, and shouldn't be touted as his best symphony.....1 and 3 are much stronger.....but #2 is ok..it's fun to play. I rate it considerably above the Rach-y stuff.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Society must acknowledge the debt we owe to long suffering musicians, who must play neo-classical garbage and film scores by luddites like Zimmer and Williams…


Williams is actually fun, and can be quite demanding in the original scores - same with other film composers, like Rosza and Waxman, just ottomh....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> ....It's just that damn.....2nd piano concerto!


Try Addinsell "Warsaw Concerto" - same idea, just much shorter!! :lol::lol:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Every human trait, _*positive*_ or negative, finds human form in the operas of the German Master…


?? what are the positive ones??  
it's like finding positive characters in "The Godfather"....lol!!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I am not interested in neoclassicism. I dislike "The Forever Not-Profound Dance" of it. When I am too lazy to wait for the inspiration, it is neo-classicist dance-like stuff that comes out by default. It is "no-brainer" for me, it is too easy. Neoromanticism with modern techniques is way harder. You actually need to have something to say.

As a composer, for years my slogan and main advice for myself has been: "Avoid neo-classicism, and let the sun shine through the polyfony. Don´t waste your own or other people´s time but always make the music at hand the best you can make it be. If the idea is not worth the effort, abandon it. Be honest." Yeah, I still stick to that. So no neo-classicism for me, please.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Society must acknowledge the debt we owe to long suffering musicians, who must play neo-classical garbage and film scores by luddites like Zimmer and Williams…
> 
> All the while, men like me - who wouldn't know a quaver from a prawn cocktail flavoured crisp of the same name - sit back and contemplate our navels…


What's wrong with Williams and Zimmer?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

My list is very long indeed; there is so much CM for which I am not the intended audience. But I prefer to remain mute on the specifics so as not to arouse anger/resentment in others.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Society must acknowledge the debt we owe to long suffering musicians, who must play neo-classical garbage and film scores by luddites like Zimmer and Williams…
> 
> All the while, men like me - who wouldn't know a quaver from a prawn cocktail flavoured crisp of the same name - sit back and contemplate our navels…


Musicians must acknowledge the debt they owe to composers like Williams and Zimmer whose scores provide them with needful and gainful extra employment when not playing Beethoven. Andre Previn tells a story that while recording a well known popular film score by Andrew Lloyd-Webber with a bunch of needful musicians he'd gleaned from London orchestras, the great horn player Alan Civil remarked to him, 'Hey Andre, how come you got to conduct this crap?'


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> What's wrong with Williams and Zimmer?


I've already been threatened with a permanent ban for my derogatory comments on the toiling masses and their salt of the earth tastes…

so, anyway, that's all she wrote folks…


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Strange Magic said:


> My list is very long indeed; there is so much CM for which I am not the intended audience. But I prefer to remain mute on the specifics so as not to arouse anger/resentment in others.


Treat this as a group therapy session, and be met with empathy or sympathy, not anger and resentment!


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Liszt Piano Sonata
Liszt Christus
Brahms Piano Trio 3
Mahler Symphony 5 (I like the first movement, though)
Mahler Symphony 8
Handel Water Music
Beethoven Piano Sonata 8 "Pathetique"
Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto 1 (except for the opening)
Tchaikovsky Symphony 4, Manfred Symphony
Rachmaninoff in general


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Treat this as a group therapy session, and be met with empathy or sympathy, not anger and resentment!


I appreciate the sentiment but my silence is a rule I have not broken since joining TC. The most I have said on this matter is that I have little use for long, gaseous, empty late 19th-early 20th century symphonies.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Eine kleine Nachtmusik and the so-called "Moonlight" sonata. Beethoven's 5th also, maybe. I don't hate any of them, I just feel that I've heard them enough already.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> For me, it's Tchaik 4 and 5....but I freely admit that overexposure to these as an orchestra musician has no doubt affected my viewpoint....


Funny; but for me it's the Pathetique-- I despise that weepy-dreary final movement and I can't enjoy the first three movements because I know it's all going to end with that self-pitying woe is me. Tchaikovsky gets the final laugh, though: I have maybe two dozen Tchaikovsky symphony cycles or last three symphony sets-- and of course they all include the Pathetique.

I admit surprise at the dislike for the Rachmaninoff Symphony 2. I've always enjoyed the "fire truck leaving the fire station" feeling of the second movement.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Strange Magic said:


> I appreciate the sentiment but my silence is a rule I have not broken since joining TC. The most I have said on this matter is that I have little use for long, gaseous, empty late 19th-early 20th century symphonies.


Ah, so you're condemning the symphonies of Mahler and Bruckner to the dustbin of history with a wave of your hand, are you now?

A slippery, "Strange Fish" would be a better name for you…


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

dissident said:


> Eine kleine Nachtmusik and the so-called "Moonlight" sonata. Beethoven's 5th also, maybe. I don't hate any of them, I just feel that I've heard them enough already.


Great shout! EKN is complete surgery, excrement. Total trash…


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

geralmar said:


> Funny; but for me it's the Pathetique-- I despise that weepy-dreary final movement and I can't enjoy the first three movements because I know it's all going to end with that self-pitying woe is me. Tchaikovsky gets the final laugh, though: I have maybe two dozen Tchaikovsky symphony cycles or last three symphony sets-- and of course they all include the Pathetique.


How this mincing, pearl-clutcher is consistently ranked in the Top 10 composers of all time is a riddle worthy of the Giza Sphinx, herself!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I thought you were apolitical.


No, I'm a moderate. How about you?

By the way, my affection for the 1812 overture has nothing to do with politics; it's a family thing.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Bulldog said:


> No, I'm a moderate. How about you?
> 
> By the way, my affection for the 1812 overture has nothing to do with politics; it's a family thing.


Let me guess…

Does it involve a Napoleon Complex and/or hereditary issues with flatulence?


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff are taking a hit on this thread. Tchaikovsky is the essence of sentimentality, and sad, Russian, soulfulness; and as far as I'm concerned, Rachmaninoff is Tchaikovsky's successor and near-equal in that regard. I read in the preface of a biography on Tchaikovsky that while Beethoven is regarded as "The Greatest", Tchaikovsky is the "Most Loved"; and not loved or "appreciated" by the snobs or critics but by the common folks. Maybe it is that before we had John Williams to throw the book at, we had Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. So that all of the sincere lovers of anything but classical, be it Pop, Jazz, Country, Rock, etc; there was maybe a handful of Tchaikovsky albums in their record collection somewhere: excerpts from _Swan Lake_, _Nutcracker_, the _Piano Concerto #1_, _Serenade_, and of course, the _1812 Overture_. Oh, there may have also been a few records by Bach or Beethoven in there as well, but no one ever listened to those records, and if they did listen, no one _loved_ the music even if they knew they were in the presence of "greatness".

What intrigues me about Tchaikovsky, though, is that despite the saccharine qualities, the melodrama, the weeping, and the wailing; is that his favorite composer was Mozart. He wrote his patroness, Nadezhda von Meck that Mozart was a musical "Christ"; and in this sense, and despite Tchaikovsky's reputation as being more sensational than logical; Tchaikovsky seemed to be very concerned with craftsmanship. So here was Tchaikovsky who could compose an endless supply of the most beautiful and cloying melodies, practically in his sleep. In this sense, I read that once as a child, and before he could read and write music, Tchaikovsky went crying to his mother, saying that the music was "in his head" and he "couldn't get it out." But despite his penchant for melody, his ideal was Mozart, the composer who is regarded as the most perfect, the most seamless, and the most beautiful and balanced. It was an ideal that Tchaikovsky could never live up to and Tchaikovsky was as harsh a critic on his own music as anyone here. Of course, if you're going to make Mozart your benchmark, you're bound to become disappointed.

I think that Tchaikovsky is worth the effort. Once you get past all the things you may dislike about Tchaikovsky you may see that he was more than just a good composer of melodies, that his musical vision often had an over-arching idea that was supposed be balanced and beautiful in the "Classical" sense. In this sense, I always think that Tchaikovsky is worth the effort.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Let me guess…
> 
> Does it involve a Napoleon Complex and/or hereditary issues with flatulence?


Of course, neither. The 1812 overture was the one and only piece of music that my dad and I both liked. On the 4th of July celebrations, we would sit next to one another at the local park and wax enthusiastically awaiting its arrival and throughout the performance. He and I didn't have much in common, so little moments like the above stand out in my mind.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I share the negative sentiments of other fellow members regarding Rach`s 2nd Symphony and Tchaikovsky`s _Pathétique_ but I`m not crazy about acknowledging them as masterpieces.

So my answer to the OP would be Pérotin`s setting of _Viderunt Omnes_. I wouldn`t deny its historical importance but I really can`t stand it.

It reminds me of this:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Ah, so you're condemning the symphonies of Mahler and Bruckner to the dustbin of history with a wave of your hand, are you now?
> 
> A slippery, "Strange Fish" would be a better name for you…


Am I condemning the symphonists and symphonies you name? We will never know, will we. But it is suggestive that you name those you do.....


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> Am I condemning the symphonists and symphonies you name?






Is TwoSetViolin comdemning Mahler in this?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I love the Rachmaninoff 2nd, it's one of my favorite works. So are Tchaikovsky symphonies 4, 5, 6. Maybe I'm just not as sophisticated as I think I am, or somehow am rather low-brow? A piece of music affects each of us in different ways and we have to appreciate those quirks. I simply adore the Gottschalk Night in the Tropics, but a lot of people think it's just crap. I like Ketelby, too, saccharine it may be, but it's so much fun. And then are are things that I should love, works I should gush over. Everyone tells me the Brahms Requiem is a monumental masterwork. I don't get it. Have never liked it. Can't stand playing it and refuse to go to a live performance. What a staggering bore it is. And yet the likes of Klemperer, Walter, Karajan, and all the other great conductors recorded it - it must have something that just doesn't register in my brain. I'll take Offenbach's Requiem any day.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

> Everyone tells me the Brahms Requiem is a monumental masterwork. I don't get it.


With the exception of the last movement, I don't either. Ditto the Verdi Requiem really. Give me the Fauré or Duruflé anytime.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Hate is a too powerful word i reserve for things that deserve it -- like war and greed -- but masterpieces I dislike include Mozart's 40th and Beethoven's 5th.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

I don't care much for Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony. I really enjoy his other orchestral works, though.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

_Gaspard de la nuit_ by Ravel. I adore French music, I love keyboard music, Ravel is my favorite composer, and _Gaspard_ is generally considered one of Ravel's finest works. And yet, I just can't get into it. Every time I try, the music goes in one ear and out the other. It completely eludes me.

And then for fun I'll say I hate the _Rapsodie espagnole_. That's too strong a word, but I certainly never have to hear that thing again.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

John Zito said:


> _Gaspard de la nuit_ by Ravel. I adore French music, I love keyboard music, Ravel is my favorite composer, and _Gaspard_ is generally considered one of Ravel's finest works. And yet, I just can't get into it. Every time I try, the music goes in one ear and out the other. It completely eludes me.
> 
> And then for fun I'll say I hate the _Rapsodie espagnole_. That's too strong a word, but I certainly never have to hear that thing again.


The sugar-rush of Debussy and Ravel should be taken in moderation.

Too much of their saccharine stuff can give one aural diabetes…


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Coach G said:


> Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff are taking a hit on this thread. Tchaikovsky is the essence of sentimentality, and sad, Russian, soulfulness; and as far as I'm concerned, Rachmaninoff is Tchaikovsky's successor and near-equal in that regard. I read in the preface of a biography on Tchaikovsky that while Beethoven is regarded as "The Greatest", Tchaikovsky is the "Most Loved"; and not loved or "appreciated" by the snobs or critics but by the common folks. Maybe it is that before we had John Williams to throw the book at, we had Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff.


There is some snobbery but it is also the case that the very features of these two and others (Grieg, Dvorak, some Mozart, Puccini and pieces from many other composers) that make them appealing for listeners new to classical are the ones that can appear sentimental or trite after a fairly short time of exposure. After pieces like 1812 and Capriccio italien the b flat minor concerto and the 5th and 6th symphony were among the first large scale classical pieces I loved as a teenager and I admit that a didn't much care for them a few years later after I had discovered Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms. Rachmaninoff was not among my early listening but I never got into that composer anyway (hate would be an exaggeration, though, and I quite like the Paganinis and the Symphonic dances). 
And the big Tchaikovsky pieces I tend to avoid most (although I can appreciate them once a year or so) are the violin concerto and the 4th symphony and I only encountered them many years later, so it can't have been overexposure. The piece I am not listening to voluntarily are the "Rococo variations" and while I used to find the "Mozartiana" interesting, I also avoid it now. Not sure if any of them are considered masterpieces (PIT was himself very harsh on the 4th symphony, I think it's overall flawed but parts are very good). OTOH I came to like similarly maligned "lighter" pieces by the composer, such as the String serenade; I think he is better in unpretentious pieces than with "fate symphonies".

Many pieces I don't care much for are not that highly regarded anyway, e.g. almost all 19th/early 20th century "virtuoso" concertos. Or Liszt's (and many others) "Tone poems", also some other "too late romantic" or impressionist music of the early 20th century. Or some (early) modern pieces, I just don't get the point of (e.g. the Russian shouting match of "Les noces"). 
A few great pieces I find flawed or are lukewarm about are Verdi's Requiem (great passages and it's very impressive live, but then we get the horrible "banda" section in the Sanctus), Mahler's 10th (I am totally puzzled that people find this sketchy fragment the greatest Mahler) and several Shostakovich symphonies; even ones I like (like 8 and 10) are a bit too long and I find the interminable 7th insufferable.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> The sugar-rush of Debussy and Ravel should be taken in moderation.
> 
> Too much of their saccharine stuff can give one aural diabetes…


I don't care for "Afternoon of a faun" or "Daphnis" and usually prefer their chamber (I mostly love) and piano music to "impressionist" orchestral stuff but the two pieces mentioned by John Zito, "Gaspard de la nuit" and "Rapsodie espagnole" are actually among my favs.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

I hope that I'm not shaking the apple tree too much, and run the risk of ridicule and contempt, but the next work that I would like to nominate, while a paradigmatic shift, in terms of its historical importance within early Romanticism, that helped to drag our Froggy friends (kicking and screaming) out of the 18th Century…and yet (to my ears at least), it is a complete mess…

Ladies and gentlemen of TC! I give you…


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> I hope that I'm not shaking the apple tree too much, and run the risk of ridicule and contempt, but the next work that I would like to nominate, while a paradigmatic shift, in terms of its historical importance within early Romanticism, that helped to drag our Froggy friends (kicking and screaming) out of the 18th Century…and yet (to my ears at least), it is a complete mess…
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen of TC! I give you…
> 
> View attachment 166203


I trust dear friend you will get your ears seen to sometime.Modern audiology can work wonders


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't care for "Afternoon of a faun" or "Daphnis" and usually prefer their chamber (I mostly love) and piano music to "impressionist" orchestral stuff but the two pieces mentioned by John Zito, "Gaspard de la nuit" and "Rapsodie espagnole" are actually among my favs.


Same with Daphnis et Chloe. I warmed up to it eventually, but it's not my favorite of Ravel's.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't care for "Afternoon of a faun" or "Daphnis" and usually prefer their chamber (I mostly love) and piano music to "impressionist" orchestral stuff but the two pieces mentioned by John Zito, "Gaspard de la nuit" and "Rapsodie espagnole" are actually among my favs.


Faun and Daphnis are guilty please use of mine. Dutoit's recording of the latter is one of my salves for more years than I care to remember now…


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Faun and Daphnis are guilty please use of mine. Dutoit's recording of the latter is one of my salves for more years than I care to remember now…


I bought Dutoit's Daphnis in high hopes then found it was completely unbanded by Decca. Hopeless!


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

marlow said:


> I trust dear friend you will get your ears seen to sometime.Modern audiology can work wonders


Perhaps, the much heralded Colin Davis LSO version I own is to blame here… either way, the work does nothing for me…


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Perhaps, the much heralded Colin Davis LSO version I own is to blame here… either way, the work does nothing for me…


Maybe a touch of Lennie B or Charlie Munch would get you out of your miserables?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am somewhat allergic to vocalizing choirs. (For some odd reason I find the textless soloists in Nielsen's 3rd fascinating, though). "The Planets" is another piece I hardly ever listen to (the section I like best is Mars) but I have no strong feelings of dislike, more of indifferent boredom.

Berlioz' SF has a few small flaws (3rd movement a bit too long, and 4 and 5 can get a bit silly) but I think they are easily overcome in good interpretations (not too slow in the slow movement and gripping but not comically exaggerated in the Marche au supplice and Witches Sabbath) and by the beautiful first movement and general passionate sweep of the whole.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Why wonder about it, Hegge?
> 
> My man, you're missing out on the greatest librettist and writer of overtures that ever lived!
> 
> ...


You think Wagner's librettos are good? From a literary standpoint? Really?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> You think Wagner's librettos are good? From a literary standpoint? Really?


Absolutely. Obviously, Lohengrin and Tannhauser are a shambles, but the rest are exceptional, given Wagner was a composer and thus his primary concern was the orchestration.

While acknowledged genius', neither Mozart nor Beethoven had the capacity to write their own librettos…


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I've just remembered that I don't like Ravel's Bolero. It's not a "dud" like the others I've listed. Rather, the repetitious music comes to sound _rigid and sinister_ to me in short order.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Absolutely. Obviously, Lohengrin and Tannhauser are a shambles, but the rest are exceptional, given Wagner was a composer and thus his primary concern was the orchestration.
> 
> While acknowledged genius', neither Mozart nor Beethoven had the capacity to write their own librettos…


Mozart and Beethoven wisely knew their own limitations! Others didn't!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

ORigel said:


> I've just remembered that I don't like Ravel's Bolero. It's not a "dud" like the others I've listed. Rather, the repetitious music comes to sound _rigid and sinister_ to me in short order.


Sometimes when I hear Bolero, but only sometimes, I have a mental picture of Franco's massed _Falange_, in full uniform, marching in slow step down a sun-drenched yet utterly empty boulevard. Sort of like a Di Chirico painting.....


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Verdi's Requiem - I've tried hard over the years with old classic recordings and newer highly regarded discs, even YouTube videos to see if the 'live' visuals help - they don't.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

It's difficult for me to declare any "masterpiece" to be adverse to my taste because it's often happened that what I don't understand today will be understood sometime in the future if I just give the music an even chance. In my experience, this mental construct has been proven to me time and time again with composers and pieces that began as mystifying, and then progressed in mind to being "somewhat listenable", to being "interesting", to being "understood", to being "enjoyable" . Brahms, Schoenberg, and the post-_Rite_ works of Stravinsky took me _years_ to like; but I think it made me a better Classical music enthusiast and a better person that I stuck with them all those years and kept an open mind to their musical vision.

I also came very late to Mozart. Not that Mozart mystified me, but it was more a matter of seeing Mozart as a composer of pretty wall-paper music; and it wasn't until middle age that I began to really love Mozart just for the seamless craftsmanship; the sense of balance and perfect beauty.

Not all composers are equal of course; and I do think that there are tier 2 and tier 3 composers and even tier 2 and tier 3 works by great composers; but even those are interesting to me because someone went through all the effort of creating something that they thought had something to important to say. I love our own American composers knowing that with a few exceptions such as Ives, Copland, and Barber and maybe a handful of others, that their output can't be compared to legion of masters that our friends in Europe have given the world.

As for works that have been "overplayed": Tchaikovsky's _Piano Concerto #1_, Beethoven's _Symphony #5_ and so on; I don't experience that very much in the realm of classical music. With popular music, there does come a time when a favorite song becomes worn out for a while and then I have to go some time without hearing it. But with Classical music and Jazz my enjoyment grows with each new hearing. There are also _some_ popular songs by, say, the likes of Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Ella Fitzgerald, or Sarah Vaughan, where the mastery of technique, style, feeling, phrasing, and shading; seem to have a staying power that one can't derive from multiple hearings of _Seasons in the Sun_, _I Got You Babe_ or _Knock Three Times_. Not that _Seasons in the Sun_, _I Got You Babe_ or _Knock Three Times_ are bad (and I grew up with my mother listening to AM radio in the 1970s), it's just that those songs are like cake, cookies, or ice cream; a little bit of sweetness is good but a lot will make you sick.

There was a time when I began to consider myself a very "sophisticated" listener, and then I went off Tchaikovsky for a while, even though Tchaikovsky was the one who brought me to classical music in the first place with my first classical record purchase being an album featuring the _1812 Overture_. But then I guess I succumbed to the snobs and the books I read by critics that declared Tchaikovsky a "guilty pleasure", a "weeping machine" and so forth. But then when I realized that Tchaikovsky's favorite composer was Mozart, I saw that underneath the melodrama and the endless supply of saccharine melodies, was a composer that was very concerned bout craftsmanship, art, beauty, and truth in his musical vision. At this point, I started listening to Tchaikovsky in new ways.

One of the processes I love about classical music is taking that piece or that composer that mystifies you, and going through all the trouble of trying to understand the musical vision. You search things up on the net, and read books and your the liner notes, and then you listen. We categorize works as Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Late-Romantic, Early Modern, Avant-Garde, Serial, and so forth; in the same way that we might categorize people as "Toxic", "Narcissist", "Empath", and this is now all the rage on YouTube right now, as well as with "Cancel Culture", and in American politics where the libs, cons, and Trumpsters are armed camps who automatically see the other person as their enemy. And then people are so quick to chime in and judge people without bothering to understand the backstory, the context, the nuances, and complexity.

I've always been interested in music, art, psychology, comparative religion, history, and chess, as all are disciplines that seek the "truth".


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am somewhat allergic to vocalizing choirs. (For some odd reason I find the textless soloists in Nielsen's 3rd fascinating, though). "The Planets" is another piece I hardly ever listen to (the section I like best is Mars) but I have no strong feelings of dislike, more of indifferent boredom.
> 
> Berlioz' SF has a few small flaws (3rd movement a bit too long, and 4 and 5 can get a bit silly) but I think they are easily overcome in good interpretations (not too slow in the slow movement and gripping but not comically exaggerated in the Marche au supplice and Witches Sabbath) and by the beautiful first movement and general passionate sweep of the whole.


Re: Movements 3-5, I think you've got to the root of my issues with SF, and why I think it's such a mess. Colin Davis, like so many puffed-up English conductors (Norrington, Rattle, et al.) is dull as dishwater.

I've now just finished listening to the 1st movement of Xavier-Roth's recent live recording, and may need to reappraise my earlier view.

Let's see… everyday is a school day, after all…


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Nearly every post dissing some masterpiece or other in this thread just has me wanting to say "try again". Many of the candidates are thought of as barnstormers but actually have quite a lot of quiet and gentle (or light and sparkling) music in them. It has me suspecting that the listeners' expectations have led them astray. Either that or they just haven't found the account that works for them. 

Of course, there are plenty of popular works (masterpieces?) that I don't rate too highly - a lot of Saint-Saens and Mendelssohn falls into that category and I tend to be very picky with Shostakovich works - but I do have moods for even these pieces and wouldn't want to drop them completely. I just don't seem to like them as much as others do.

BTW I wasn't much of a fan of Rachmaninov's 2nd until I heard the Rozhdestvensky recording - which kind of persuaded me it was very worthwhile.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm nonplussed by this thread.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I'm nonplussed by this thread.


Sorry, we haven't found the missing link, yet, Mr Simian.

Not to worry; humanity awaits through patience and evolution…


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

There is of course a positive way to look at this thread - the works regarded as black holes may just require the listener to be directed to a recording/performance that works for that individual, there may well be some good advice kicking about.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Re: Movements 3-5, I think youâ€™ve got to the root of my issues with SF, and why I think itâ€™s such a mess. Colin Davis, like so many puffed-up English conductors (Norrington, Rattle, et al.) is dull as dishwater.
> 
> Iâ€™ve now just finished listening to the 1st movement of Xavier-Rothâ€™s recent live recording, and may need to reappraise my earlier view.
> 
> ...


Having listened to FX-Râ€™s excellent live recording earlier today in Blackheath, I have come to the conclusion that the excising of the 3rd movement really improves my overall impression. The 3rd is ponderous and overlong. The 4th is itself something of a death march, so removing the 3rd made the remainder far more enjoyable.

Chapeau! í ¼í¾©


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Malx said:


> There is of course a positive way to look at this thread - the works regarded as black holes may just require the listener to be directed to a recording/performance that works for that individual, there may well be some good advice kicking about.


Lipstick on a pig.....:lol:


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

My view of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique is that it is one of the great classical works. Furthermore, far from it being ‘a mess’, everything about it points to almost an obsessive approach to the care taken in its composition. The 3rd movement is an exquisite creation, its presentation of the subject matter only matched (arguably) by Beethoven’s 6th.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

well to name a composer who some people believe has composed masterpieces is easy: Bax. Even Tintagel does not ring a bell.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

All of the masterpieces of the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical Eras elude me. Hate is certainly a strong word to describe my dislike for these eras, but I can't think of one work that I'd ever want to hear again from any of these composers with a bold exception of Haydn and early Beethoven. I suppose I do like some Bach (more than I'd like to admit). My heart is firmly in the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Neo Romanza said:


> All of the masterpieces of the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical Eras elude me. Hate is certainly a strong word to describe my dislike for these eras, but I can't think of one work that I'd ever want to hear again from any of these composers with a bold exception of Haydn and early Beethoven. I suppose I do like some Bach (more than I'd like to admit). My heart is firmly in the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries.


I'm curious to know if there is an offending essence that you think is shared but all such works?

I have a somewhat similar perspective as you (but different exceptions).


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> All of the masterpieces of the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical Eras elude me. Hate is certainly a strong word to describe my dislike for these eras, but I can't think of one work that I'd ever want to hear again from any of these composers with a bold exception of Haydn and early Beethoven. I suppose I do like some Bach (more than I'd like to admit). My heart is firmly in the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries.


Neo, how can you deny yourself the greatest music that man has ever and will ever produce!

Why not approach Tiger Mountain, by a different strategy? With regards to the Baroque era for instance, consider a wonderful historical recording like Reinhard Goebel's "German Chamber Music before Bach"









and listen to it in tandem with Gudmundsen-Holmgreen's recent recording "Green Ground", which is essentially an extended reworking of Pachelbel's baroque masterpiece, Canon & Gigue in D Major, which is included in the Goebel recording. Enjoy!


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Does Star Wars count? My school orchestra plays Star Wars and it is the only composition that they play with passion... But I am not a fan of it at all... It just does not make sense from my classical music perspective. Everything goes too far from the traditional classical music.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Bruckner .....................


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Neo Romanza said:


> All of the masterpieces of the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical Eras elude me. Hate is certainly a strong word to describe my dislike for these eras, but I can't think of one work that I'd ever want to hear again from any of these composers with a bold exception of Haydn and early Beethoven. I suppose I do like some Bach (more than I'd like to admit). My heart is firmly in the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries.


Sometimes that's just the case, having a strong preference for certain time periods and not 'getting' others, but I might suggest getting rid of the attitude 'more than I'd like to admit'. I think you should stay open to those time periods and not admitting to yourself you like more Bach than you would have thought isn't a good way to do that


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

KevinW said:


> Does Star Wars count? My school orchestra plays Star Wars and it is the only composition that they play with passion... But I am not a fan of it at all... It just does not make sense from my classical music perspective. Everything goes too far from the traditional classical music.


Star Wars isn't classical music but film music which means it accompanies the movie, sometimes directly. You should watch the movies and think again. From a classical music perspective it doesn't make sense but a tip: if you like Holst the Planets you could come around to star wars


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

The beginning of Bach's Mass in B minor, the Kyrie eleison is a snoozefest


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## sAmUiLc (9 mo ago)

I am dropping this post. Getting unrequested advices (?). Let me be.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Give it a rest and it will call to you when the time is right. The Kocsis recording may be the one that will do it for you. Or perhaps the excellent recent recording by Susanna Mälkki.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I take solace in discovering that I'm very much not alone in not getting Tchaikovsky's Pathetique. I struggle with Tchaikovsky in general in that while I love many of the melodies I frequently find myself wishing for more craftsmanship underneath them, and more profundity rather than what I perceive as sentimentality. To me, Tchaikovsky consistently and perilously walks a thin line between genuine depth and kitch, and I often spend time listening to him wondering when/if the wires going to snap or he's going to slip and plummet. As such I tend to only appreciate his oeuvre piecemeal, and the works I like most (Piano Concerto #1, Serenade for Strings, eg.) IMO play to his strengths and aren't trying to be profound like the Pathetique. In others, to the extent they work it's because the melodies are so enrapturing they completely blind me to any other criticisms I might have.

Another work I struggle with is Bach's Goldberg Variations. I think I've listened to them enough now that I "get" them, I just don't "feel" them. I have a similar reaction to much Bach, though not all as as I love works like the B-Minor Mass and Well-Tempered Clavier.


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## sAmUiLc (9 mo ago)

This post is related to the one I just took down. So no longer relevant.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ludwig Schon said:


> What acknowledged classical music masterpiece do you either hate or are completely non-plussed by.
> 
> No, it must be a work that you are willing to acknowledge from an objective perspective is a masterpiece, and yet…
> 
> N.B. This has nothing to do with individual recordings, it's about the compositional work itself!


Hate is too strong a word. Put it this way, I've culled these from my collection, but I'm happy to hear them if for example they come up on radio. I'd rarely search them up to listen to on youtube. In most cases, there are other pieces by these composers that have remained in my collection. Some I can appreciate but find them too heavy going (e.g. the last five on the list). I won't mention opera or art song which I generally avoid.

Beethoven Symphonies 5 and 9 in particular
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
Bruckner Symphonies 8 and 9 in particular
Mahler Symphony #9 in particular
Strauss Thus Sprach Zarathustra
Copland Lincoln Portrait
Stravinsky Rite of Spring
Tchaikovsky's ballets
Ives Symphony #2
Schoenberg Piano Concerto
Messiaen Turangalila Symphony
Cage Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano
Boulez Sur Incises
Carter Concerto for Orchestra
Ligeti String Quartet #1
Varese - everything
Schnittke Piano Quintet
Penderecki Threnody
Lutoslawski Piano Concerto


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

I despise almost everything that that English Royalist brownnose, GF Handel ever produced. 

Evrything Reich, Reilly and Glass produced after 1976 can be slung in the bin too. La Monte Young is the only true minimalist…


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Sid James said:


> Hate is too strong a word. Put it this way, I've culled these from my collection, but I'm happy to hear them if for example they come up on radio. I'd rarely search them up to listen to on youtube. In most cases, there are other pieces by these composers that have remained in my collection. Some I can appreciate but find them too heavy going (e.g. the last five on the list). I won't mention opera or art song which I generally avoid.
> 
> Beethoven Symphonies 5 and 9 in particular
> Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
> ...


There is definitely an elevator music effect with much of what you list above.

I haven’t listened to Miles Davis’ Kind of Blue in over 20 years. Thus, if I heard it now, Beethoven’s 5th or Mozart’s 40th, I’d leave the room in disgust, and pity the poor fool who put this music on…


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Bartok's string quartets


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

ORigel said:


> I've just remembered that I don't like Ravel's Bolero. It's not a "dud" like the others I've listed. Rather, the repetitious music comes to sound _rigid and sinister_ to me in short order.


Ravel himself wasn't too impressed either so you are in good company


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Lover Schubert, adore his chamber music...but never been able to understand why the Trout Quintet is so loved.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I have a certain antipathy for VW's _Sea Symphony_. I've no particular antipathy towards choral symphonies and I am fond of most of the other VW works I have but this one never fails to leave me feeling underwhelmed - each time I hear it it always seems to drag its feet.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

To add, I don't find the Brandenburg Concertos all too appealing. Except maybe the 1st and 6th.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

4chamberedklavier said:


> To add, I don't find the Brandenburg Concertos all too appealing. Except maybe the 1st and 6th.


The 5th Brandenburg might be my favorite baroque concerto by anyone but I don't much care for the 1st with its strange mix of instruments and the boring dances tacked on and the rest is good but by now rarely listened to. For a long time I also liked the d minor keyboard concerto that seems by some margin the most famous/popular less than the other keyboard concertos. I like it better now although it's still not a great favorite and I think the most impressive version of the music is with organ and choir in the cantata BWV 146.


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

sAmUiLc said:


> I listened to Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra many times, different performances also, hoping to find out why it was considered a masterpiece. But I gave up in the end. I simply don't get it still. O well..


an instant masterpiece for me. 

maybe no interpretation will change that for you - but keep listening!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I've been listening to these generally accepted masterpieces pretty frequently over the past 35+ years, so the chance is slim that I will change my mind in the future. I don't like them at all (hate is far too strong a word).

Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis
Handel's Messiah
Mozart's operas
Verdi's operas

I like lots of Beethoven and Mozart, and lots of operas by other composers. The ones listed above, no.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> The 5th Brandenburg might be my favorite baroque concerto by anyone but I don't much care for the 1st with its strange mix of instruments and the boring dances tacked on and the rest is good but by now rarely listened to.


I keep going back to the 5th brandenburg, & I've actually come to appreciate it, but I think what's turning me off is in many recordings, the harpsichord isn't very audible


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ludwig Schon said:


> There is definitely an elevator music effect with much of what you list above.
> 
> I haven’t listened to Miles Davis’ Kind of Blue in over 20 years. Thus, if I heard it now, Beethoven’s 5th or Mozart’s 40th, I’d leave the room in disgust, and pity the poor fool who put this music on…


I don't see them as elevator music, and you did say we should list what we thought to be masterpieces (which I think was a good idea, because I don't see much of a point in hating something if I can avoid it). They're just examples of pieces I don't need to have recordings of, not listen to with any frequency. If I do listen to them, it will most likely be by coincidence (e.g. if they come up on radio).

My collection still consists of a lot of standard repertoire - I like a lot of what people have listed above, e.g. Bolero, the Brandenburg Concertos, Tchaikovsky's first concerto and so on. I like a variety of music, but I only own what I want to listen to. I'm not really concerned about what I should or shouldn't listen to. In my early days of listening, there was an element of that, now I don't feel any pressure to like for example opera, or areas of the repertoire which simply don't match my taste.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> What acknowledged classical music masterpiece do you either hate or are completely non-plussed by.


None, I guess. It's not unusual for me to have some difficulty with a famous piece when I hear it for the first few times, but I'm always curious to understand what makes it appealing to others and the mere fact that I believe to be hearing something special makes me not want to dislike it. It's true that I tend to avoid too hardcore avant-garde stuff from the second half of the twentieth century, but I don't know any work of it that is widely acclaimed as a masterpiece anyway.

I don't understand the negativity towards Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky in this thread. I greatly enjoy the concertos and symphonies of both and hope to listen to them many, many more times in the next years.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> None, I guess. *It's not unusual for me to *have some difficulty with a famous piece when I hear it for the first few times, but I'm always curious to understand what makes it appealing to others and the mere fact that I believe to be hearing something special makes me not want to dislike it. It's true that I tend to avoid too hardcore avant-garde stuff from the second half of the twentieth century, but I don't know any work of it that is widely acclaimed as a masterpiece anyway.
> 
> I don't understand the negativity towards Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky in this thread. I greatly enjoy the concertos and symphonies of both and hope to listen to them many, many more times in the next years.


You‘re clearly a Tom Jones fan… I’ll say no more…


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> I don't like them at all (hate is far too strong a word).
> 
> Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis
> 
> Verdi's operas


Do you happen to (comparably) like Fidelio and the Verdi Requiem or did you forget them on the black list?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Don't like Fidelio, like Verdi's Requiem.

The Verdi is very puzzling. I like the main operas by Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Puccini - but not Verdi.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

The Ninth, or, well, that damn last movement; three quarters of the symphony is brilliant, magisterial, deeply moving. And the whole thing ends with that bathetic carnivalesque nonsense choral piece. What was Beethoven thinking?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Gallus said:


> The Ninth, or, well, that damn last movement; three quarters of the symphony is brilliant, magisterial, deeply moving. And the whole thing ends with that bathetic carnivalesque nonsense choral piece. What was Beethoven thinking?


If only Marin Alsop had been around to help Big Ludi!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Gallus said:


> The Ninth, or, well, that damn last movement; three quarters of the symphony is brilliant, magisterial, deeply moving. And the whole thing ends with that bathetic carnivalesque nonsense choral piece. What was Beethoven thinking?


He was devising a test to know whose opinions on music to take seriously. Unfortunately, you just failed this test  but you are in good company with the great Ludwig Spohr and others.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> You‘re clearly a Tom Jones fan… I’ll say no more…


Nah, I don't even know who is the guy. If somehow your point was that I try to be eclectic, then it's true.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Tough crowd here! Hey its what you like. Having said that I want to defend the honor of Rach#2 ! Great Symphony


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Don't like Fidelio...


I'm also rather indifferent to Fidelio. The vocal writing sounds awkward to me, as does Beethoven's vocal writing in the finale of the 9th. Never been able to put my finger on why, though. Funnily enough, the vocal writing in the Missa sounds fine, from what I can recall. I do enjoy most of the orchestral music in Fidelio though, especially the Leonore overtures (and especially #3) that he ultimately scrapped.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I'm also rather indifferent to Fidelio. The vocal writing sounds awkward to me, as does Beethoven's vocal writing in the finale of the 9th. Never been able to put my finger on why, though. Funnily enough, the vocal writing in the Missa sounds fine, from what I can recall. I do enjoy most of the orchestral music in Fidelio though, especially the Leonore overtures (and especially #3) that he ultimately scrapped.


Interesting how opinions on music may diverge so much. I absolutely love _Fidelio_, and the _Missa Solemnis_ and the _Choral_ symphony (particularly in it's Finale) are to me two of the greatest masterpieces produced by humankind, in any field, place or time. I definitely wouldn't want to be without any of these zeniths of the arts.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I don't think I hate any music. However I often don't see any point in it -- such as Steve Reich's _18_, Ravel's _Bolero_ or their grandchildren ... minimalism.

Most operas are great in performance but require too much attention too long at home.

Most high calorie romantic music is too much for me -- Strauss tone poems for example.

I like Second Viennese School music but not for too long. I can enjoy the Berg concerto or Lulu suite but Pierrot Lunaire is too much.

My ideal is a Mozart serenade or divertimento -- tuneful, entertaining, not too demanding intellectually yet full of life and brio. Even if it's by Dag Wiren or Michael Ippolito.

If it lasts much longer than a half-hour my interest is likely to wane.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I'll just drop in here and say that if I ever have to sit through Vivaldi's 4 Seasons again, my critical faculties will curl up and die.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I'll just drop in here and say that if I ever have to sit through Vivaldi's 4 Seasons again, my critical faculties will curl up and die.


I don't have _The Four Seasons_. It's one of the glaring gaps in my collection when judged by its fame quotient but having a five-disc box of Vivaldi concertos already doesn't exactly give me an itch to scratch.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Here we go!

I find most of Handel's music superficial and pompous, give me Telemann instead, superficial too but at least he has character.
There's very little Mozart I actually enjoy. Some chamber music and piano concertos.
Beethoven doesn't always convince me in his middle period.
Verdi. Genuine antipathy.
Italian opera in general. I don't get the big voices cult.
Romantic piano stuff by Chopin and Liszt leaves me completely cold.
French organ music. I overdosed on it during my studies, now I find most of it kitchy, shallow and unidiomatic.
anything romantic and folksy/ethnic. Hungarian dances and polkas and dumkas and waltzes and stuff.
anything related to the Vienna New Year's concerts makes me puke. Strauss family, operettas...
Dvorak, always sounds like second rate Brahms to me.
pre-Ring Wagner
Everything by Tchaikovsky, his music just rubs me the wrong way.
"Colorful" Russian romantics in general.
Rachmaninov is a third-rate composer.
Orff. I hate Carmina Burana with a passion.
Rodrigo. Single worst composer in the world.
Guitar and harp stuff in general.
Bartok, Messiaen, basically every modernist who's channeling folk music or exotic cultures.
Stravinsky. I feel nothing when listening to his music.
American composers with the exception of Ives.
This felt so good, getting it out of my system!


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> Here we go!
> 
> Bartok, Messiaen, basically every modernist who's channeling folk music or exotic cultures.


Pretty controversial list, but with this in particular I had to question as I do not recall much folk music or exotic cultures (unless we define birdsong as "exotic culture") in Messiaen. Even in Bartok it's relegated to certain works, not what I'd call the bulk of his output.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Pretty controversial list, but with this in particular I had to question as I do not recall much folk music or exotic cultures (unless we define birdsong as "exotic culture") in Messiaen. Even in Bartok it's relegated to certain works, not what I'd call the bulk of his output.


I guess the thread invites one to be a bit provocative and controversial  And of course it isn't all taken 100% seriously. I do love some Bartok too (works like the 2nd violin concerto, the music for strings, percussion and celesta and the string quartets), it's just that I generally value "cerebral", more formally tight and abstract composers higher. To me Messiaen is all color and little substance, sort of modernized Debussy (another bete noire that I forgot to mention...)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This is the first time I admit this even to myself:

I do not like the Apassionata nor Moonlight Piano Sonatas by Beethoven.

Just too much continuous minor key arpeggios over the keyboard. Constant nonstop Sturm und Drang without any sunshine.

Neither do I like the Piano Quintets by Schumann or Brahms. The tuning of the piano and the 4 strings clash.

(Piano Quartets and Piano Trios by both I adore! The lesser number of strings sound better with the piano there.)


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## clachat (11 mo ago)

Pachelbel canon


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> I guess the thread invites one to be a bit provocative and controversial  And of course it isn't all taken 100% seriously. I do love some Bartok too (works like the 2nd violin concerto, the music for strings, percussion and celesta and the string quartets), it's just that I generally value "cerebral", more formally tight and abstract composers higher. To me Messiaen is all color and little substance, sort of modernized Debussy (another bete noire that I forgot to mention...)


Funnily enough I had a friend who used to dislike Bartok because he thought he was TOO cerebral. There's some interesting design especially in his highly acclaimed works like you mentioned and the Concerto for Orchestra. While I do hear "substance" in Messiaen I would admit that his "colorful" music is a major appeal as well. I do hear plenty of substance though in works like Vingt Regards..., Quartet for the End of Time and Saint Francois... I think these religion/social-inspired works tend to bring out Messiaen's "substantial" side. Stuff like the Turangalila symphony or Chronochromie I do mostly just appreciate for their color.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

clachat said:


> Pachelbel canon


Oh yes! Dreadful!! Whoever wrote it should be ashamed.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't hate any 'masterpieces', but I am certainly nonplussed by a great many, including the vast majority of those universally thought of as masterpieces.

As I have made it clear many times, my interest in classical music is almost exclusive to music from about the mid 1920's and later. Even more so, music from after 1945 or, thereabouts, to the present. 

I have made many attempts to appreciate music from earlier eras, but to no avail. I still own quite a few recordings of works by the major composers from earlier eras that I will play from time to time, to see if they finally click for me, but so far, no luck. I own many recordings by Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, etc, that I purposely hang on to, in hopes that I finally get into them.

When I listen to them, I have no problem with hearing what others love. But I always seem to be disconnected from them. I am unable to be viscerally, emotionally, intellectually, artistically moved by them.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Simon Moon said:


> But I always seem to be disconnected from them. I am unable to be viscerally, emotionally, intellectually, artistically moved by them.


Have you been to any concerts recently or are there opportunities to meet musicians? In my opinion recordings and live concerts are different experiences.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Kind of stunned by the amount of intense dislike on this thread. Really changes my view of TalkClassical listeners.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Simon Moon said:


> I have made many attempts to appreciate music from earlier eras, but to no avail. I still own quite a few recordings of works by the major composers from earlier eras that I will play from time to time, to see if they finally click for me, but so far, no luck. I own many recordings by Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, etc, that I purposely hang on to, in hopes that I finally get into them.
> 
> When I listen to them, *I have no problem with hearing what others love. But I always seem to be disconnected from them. I am unable to be viscerally, emotionally, intellectually, artistically moved by them*.


I think this means that you don't (for whatever reason) hear what others love. It's fair enough but a bit of a mystery to me as I can't imagine loving modern and avant garde music without a feel for where it has come from.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I think this means that you don't (for whatever reason) hear what others love. It's fair enough but a bit of a mystery to me as I can't imagine loving modern and avant garde music without a feel for where it has come from.


The same accusation can be made against people who appreciate jazz, but not classical.


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