# TC Listening Club Part 6: Gruppen (Stockhausen)



## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

This week's work nominated by mmsbls.

PURCHASE OPTIONS

There are a couple of available purchasing options that I can find. However, since seeing the performance of this piece is equally important, I recommend the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra recording available on YouTube below. As always, any additions to this list welcome:

Stockhausen: Gruppen * (Berlin Philharmoniker, Abbado)
Eötvös conducts Stockhausen (Cologne Radio SO, Eötvös)
Stockhausen: Gruppen/Carre (Stockhausen) (Stockhausen-Verlag)

YouTube LINKS

For those who require them:





 (City of Birmingham SO, Carewe/ Harding/ Rattle)(DG)




 (Pintscher, Vis, Fitzsimon)(Bmc)

OTHER INFORMATION

Check out the Wikipedia article on this work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppen_(Stockhausen)

The following is taken from an editorial review of the Abbado recording, author unknown:

On the last page of the published score of Gruppen (Groups), Stockhausen entered: Deo gratias. Like Stravinsky s Rite of Spring, Stockhausen s work was conceived in an Alpine landscape. The Rite was composed at Clarens, overlooking Lake Geneva and the French Alps, while Gruppen was planned and partly written in the Eastern Swiss Alps of Graubunden. In his programme note for the premiere, Stockhausen wrote that Gruppen marked a new phase in his development of the spatial deployment of instrumental music . He achieved this by using three independent orchestras, each with its own conductor. For most of the time they play as separate entities, at different speeds, but occasionally these coincide they meet in a common audible rhythm , as Stockhausen put it. The orchestras interact in other ways too: calling and answering, or echoing phrases from one of the other orchestras. Stockhausen uses a range of other spatial devices as well: For a while only music from the left, from the front or from the right may be heard; [or] the sound may transmigrate from one orchestra to another.

At the same time as working on Gruppen, Stockhausen was also experimenting with ways of using the spatial placement of electronic sounds through loudspeakers in Gesang der Junglinge (1955 56). Gruppen represents the application of a similar approach to live orchestral writing. In his programme note, Stockhausen wrote that spatial deployment now becomes functional. (It is difficult to mount such music in existing concert halls.) Each sound-source is now in a position to make its own temporal measures felt, and the listener finds himself in the middle of several temporal measures which combine to create a further common time-world. Furthermore, the sources no longer produce points of sound ... but rather they produce groups : groups of sounds, of noises and of combined sound and noise, each an autonomous unit. At several places in the score, the three orchestras seem to be moving closer together, playing at the same speed, with the same harmonies and orchestration. In the score at these places, Stockhausen says the orchestras become transformed: one receives the other into itself. Or plays with it. Extinguishes it. They fall apart or cling together. But these moments never become permanent. For Stockhausen, the three orchestras can never entirely coalesce, as they still remain spatially separate.

The first performance of Gruppen was given in Cologne s Rheinsaal a large exhibition hall more usually used for trade fairs. It took place on 24 March 1958, with the Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Bruno Maderna, Pierre Boulez and Stockhausen himself. The present live recording was made in the music in the round acoustical environment of the Berlin Philharmonie.
Among early reactions to the piece, one is of particular interest. In Memories and Commentaries, Robert Craft asked Stravinsky: What piece of new music has most interested you in the last year? The composer s reply was:

Stockhausen s Gruppen. The title is exact: the music really does consist of groups, and each group is admirably composed according to its plan of volume, instrumentation, rhythmic patterns, tessitura, dynamic, various kinds of highs and lows ... The question of the three orchestras has aroused much comment. Actually when the orchestras play separately or overlap, their roles are very marked, but in the tutti sections they simply sound like one orchestra, and this is true of all poly-orchestral music whether it is by Schutz or Mozart or Charles Ives, or anyone else.

Stravinsky praised the remarkable sounds of the orchestration, and bestowed on it the ultimate Stravinskian compliment: The rhythmic construction of Gruppen is, I think, of the greatest interest.
There are also a couple of articles on Stockhausen and Gruppen at the following pages:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2008/10/stockhausen-in.html
www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2001/jun/01/artsfeatures.classicalmusicandopera

*Paired with works by Kurtag. There are two releases of this recording available, although it also has mixed reviews.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

UPCOMING

The schedule for the next four Listening Club sessions will be:

PART 7: Cello Suite No. 6 in D (Bach, J.S.) chosen by Clementine and starting 23/07/12
PART 8: Piano Sonata No. 16 in G (Beethoven) chosen by CarterJohnsonPiano and starting 30/07/12
PART 9: TBC by KRoad before 29/07/12 and starting 06/08/12
PART 10: Keyboard Concerto No. 1 (Bach, J.S.) chosen by Merve and starting 13/08/12

OTHER THREADS

You can still participate in past Listening Club threads here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/19793-tc-listening-club-week.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/19883-tc-listening-club-week.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/19986-tc-listening-club-part.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/20078-tc-listening-club-part.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/20189-tc-listening-club-part.html

NOMINATIONS

To sign up and nominate pieces for listening, use the following thread or PM crmoorhead.

http://www.talkclassical.com/19752-listening-club.html

If a member does not nominate a piece before the deadline in the schedule, a piece will be selected at random from the list of pieces nominated by other members. Members will be given a reminder a few days before the deadline for their selection passes. Nominations must be available on YouTube.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

This is an awesome choice!

People talk about Stockhausen as if he's from Mars, and his music as if it's just random beeping and buzzing or something. But it is interesting timbres, interesting rhythms - just interesting music, possible for anyone to follow without so much as a liner note. 

I'll listen to it again this week - and I'll do the Faust symphony as well, as I missed last week....


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Stockhausen is from a planet orbiting Sirius, not Mars. He said so himself and I truly believe him when he said that he was born and educated there. I do love Stockhausen's music and I'll leave a better reply when I listen to Gruppen again. :tiphat:


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Count me in...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have only heard Gruppen on youtube, and when I nominated it, I worried that hearing a recorded version does not properly give one a sense of the spatial variation in sounds that a live version would. I'd love to hear from anyone who has heard it live. While Stockhausen is not a favorite of mine, I wanted to explore this work since it's generally considered one of his major pieces. 

I absolutely loved the short bursts of brass that emanate from the various orchestras throughout the work. While there are parts that include many of the instruments, for the most part I found the work rather subdued and almost muted. I had the sense of waiting for things to happen rather than following the "normal" flow of music.

In the middle there is a flurry of brass that seems to come out of nowhere and gives a sense of excitement. I briefly thought of Ives' Central Park in the Dark. 

The most interesting parts for me were the juxtaposition of slow background music with bursts of rhythmic intensity in various glissandos. I understand the various rhythms correspond to the slopes of mountain tops in the region where he wrote the music. 

I do feel that being at a performance would bring out the spatial variation much better and truly give the music a sense of movement that is a bit hard to hear in a recording.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> * There also exists a version on Stockhausen's own label, but it isn't easily obtained.


Yes it is. Go to this page: http://www.stockhausencds.com/ 
Find disc no 5. Stick it in you "cart" and pay for it. No harder than Amazon.



> **Paired with works by Kurtag. There are two releases of this recording available, although it also has mixed reviews.


... not least from KS who pointed out that it has many errors (though would you hear them?)
The Eotvos performance is better, as is KS's own - available as described above.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Imagine how difficult it is to conduct this. You have to watch two other conductors and cue instruments at awkward times.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Imagine how difficult it is to conduct this. You have to watch two other conductors and cue instruments at awkward times.


I doubt the conductors watch each other - they are probably not even facing each other in a properly staged performance. Don't forget that any performance follows extensive preparation by the conductors, so they _should _know the score!

The start of each new group is cued form the currently playing group(s). For example, orchestra I plays group 1. Within bar 5 (tempo crotchet = 120) there's an isolate _sfz _drumbeat which is aligned with the start of (a silent) bar 1 of group 2 (orchestra II). The conductor of orch II beats this bar (crotchet = 95) in 4/4.

In the next bar of group 2, there's a cue for orchestra III (group 3) enabling that conductor to beat a silent bar (crotchet = 127) in 4/4. When orch III comes in, II (which is still playing) joins them in group 3 (but at their tempo).

There's a clear cue towards the end of group 3 (an isolated _ff _on solo violin - the other instruments playing are orch III strings' held notes, _ppp_, so this cue should be audible), allowing the conductor of orch I to beat five silent beats (at crotchet = 107) before group 4 is played.

And so on. In fact, a glance at the score shows that KS is scrupulous in providing audible cues for conductors to listen for, and adequate time for each conductor to beat the new tempo for their orchestra before it comes in with the new group.

What is difficult is conducting at precisely the right tempo. KS uses a scale of tempi derived from the tone row and, for the groups to be synchronised - even though two (or three) groups sounding simultaneously will always be in different tempi - absolute precision is necessary. The tempo scale is crotchet = 60, 63.5, 67, 71, 75.5, 80, 85, 90, 95, 101, 107, 113.5, 120.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Yes it is. Go to this page: http://www.stockhausencds.com/
> Find disc no 5. Stick it in you "cart" and pay for it. No harder than Amazon.


Thanks, I have changed the OP and added it to the list. I only checked for availability on Amazon. I quite like the designs on those CDs (more classical music should have interesting covers like that!), although not so keen on the price tag! :O


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> Thanks, I have changed the OP and added it to the list. I only checked for availability on Amazon. I quite like the designs on those CDs (more classical music should have interesting covers like that!), although not so keen on the price tag! :O


It is a bit galling that the belief has crept up that these discs are hard to acquire.

But it's not helped by the label not supplying them to mainstream online retailers like Amazon, Arkiv and MDT, of course. I'm sure the individual pricing of each disc doesn't help. And they seem to be getting more expensive: the most recent discs, of _Klang_, are eyewateringly dear. But then I see that the score of _Gruppen _is currently EUR 101 from UE.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> I have only heard Gruppen on youtube, and when I nominated it, I worried that hearing a recorded version does not properly give one a sense of the spatial variation in sounds that a live version would. I'd love to hear from anyone who has heard it live.


Hearing it on YouTube, even assuming your computer is linked to a decent hifi, doesn't begin to reveal what hearing it live is like. I heard it performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Martyn Brabbins and two other conductors. Admirably, they played it twice in the concert. The first time they were precise but clearly nervous (or worse!). The second time they _relaxed_. And the performance was a revelation! I suddenly realised how beautiful the work is. No recording captures this, but it was so apparent in their second performance.



> While Stockhausen is not a favorite of mine, I wanted to explore this work since it's generally considered one of his major pieces.


It is.



> I had the sense of waiting for things to happen rather than following the "normal" flow of music.


It's already happening.

Is there a flow? Actually, at the highest level, it is about working through a number of permutations of the underlying tone row. I think KS's genius here is in inventing a structure which shouldn't, in itself, have highs and lows, points of contrast, climaxes and, at the end, a sense of culmination - yet mysteriously it does.



> I understand the various rhythms correspond to the slopes of mountain tops in the region where he wrote the music.


Only in the broadest, most general sense (which is a polite way of saying, not at all). This isn't Villa Lobos transcribing the New York skyline.



> I do feel that being at a performance would bring out the spatial variation much better and truly give the music a sense of movement that is a bit hard to hear in a recording.


Yes, and more (see above).


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Only in the broadest, most general sense (which is a polite way of saying, not at all). This isn't Villa Lobos transcribing the New York skyline.


I certainly don't know what Stockhausen was trying to convey with Gruppen. My comment on the rhythms and mountain features comes from a quote in this Wikipedia article on Gruppen.

Stockhausen apparently said, "in Gruppen … whole envelopes of rhythmic blocks are exact lines of mountains that I saw in Paspels in Switzerland right in front of my little window. Many of the time spectra, which are represented by superimpositions of different rhythmic layers-of different speeds in each layer-their envelope which describes the increase and decrease of the number of layers, their shape, so to speak, the shape of the time field, are the curves of the mountain's contour which I saw when I looked out the window. (Cott 1973, 141)"

I didn't try to imagine the shape of the mountains as I listened, but perhaps when I listen again I might try that.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Stockhausen apparently said, "in Gruppen … whole envelopes of rhythmic blocks are exact lines of mountains that I saw in Paspels in Switzerland right in front of my little window. Many of the time spectra, which are represented by superimpositions of different rhythmic layers-of different speeds in each layer-their envelope which describes the increase and decrease of the number of layers, their shape, so to speak, the shape of the time field, are the curves of the mountain's contour which I saw when I looked out the window. (Cott 1973, 141)"


Thanks. I didn't know that.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Hearing it on YouTube, even assuming your computer is linked to a decent hifi, doesn't begin to reveal what hearing it live is like. I heard it performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Martyn Brabbins and two other conductors. Admirably, they played it twice in the concert. The first time they were precise but clearly nervous (or worse!). The second time they _relaxed_. And the performance was a revelation! I suddenly realised how beautiful the work is. No recording captures this, but it was so apparent in their second performance.


Lucky you! A CD version doesn't seem to do it justice at all (I include it only because that is the usual format of the listening club). It can be clearly seen from the set-up on the YouTube video that the experience of being there is, in a sense, what defines this work. Putting myself in the shoes of the audience, it would seem like one was being surrounded or enveloped by a series of shifting sounds and rhythms. I can imagine the music 'passing through' me as it transports from one orchestra to another. I think it has been mentioned somewhere that there is not a surround sound version of this recording available and I would imagine that the difference would be like the difference between watching a TV with standard speakers at home and watching the same thing with the full cinematic experience. Would you agree with this analogy?

As far as the music itself goes, I haven't had a chance to absorb it yet. It is rather more complicated than I am used to. I do not own any other pieces (as far as I know) that use a tone row for tempo as well as the notes themselves. Total serialism is still new to me, but on first listen I did not find it unenjoyable. I'll need to give it a few more goes and it is a piece that interests me.

As far as Stockhausen himself goes, he kinda creeps me out. I get the sense that he really _is_ from another planet. For some reason, Cage comes across to me as an inquisive and playful spirit and Stockhausen as a mad scientist/alien on the point of being commited. Just my (not so informed) opinion of watching him speak on YouTube videos. I get where he is coming from, but his manner of delivery is more than a little unnerving and invites comparison with Bela Lugosi's performance in Dracula. "I do not drink... wine." Probably all part of what he was about, I know.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

My original impression of _Gruppen_, was of an innovative idea, that was executed quite well. For a work composed for 3 orchestras I found it flowed naturally and was very cohesive, I don't imagine this would be an easy compositional task. I found this work invited me to appreciate orchestral sounds and capabilities in a way that I previously hadn't experienced. It opened my mind to many new orchestral possibilities. I genuinely enjoyed this new listening experience. Finally, people have mentioned the sensuality of _Gruppen_, and I must say I agree this work seems sensual I might go so far as to say maybe even somewhat sexual in nature? Though I am not sure that is what the composer intended. I hope to find time to give it another listen this week, and perhaps post more thoughts.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> Lucky you! A CD version doesn't seem to do it justice at all (I include it only because that is the usual format of the listening club). It can be clearly seen from the set-up on the YouTube video that the experience of being there is, in a sense, what defines this work. Putting myself in the shoes of the audience, it would seem like one was being surrounded or enveloped by a series of shifting sounds and rhythms. I can imagine the music 'passing through' me as it transports from one orchestra to another. I think it has been mentioned somewhere that there is not a surround sound version of this recording available and I would imagine that the difference would be like the difference between watching a TV with standard speakers at home and watching the same thing with the full cinematic experience. Would you agree with this analogy?


Yes. However the performance I saw was in the Festival Hall, London and the orchestras were on the stage and the side seats adjacent to the stage. Few, if any, people in the audience got the experience you imagine. Nevertheless, the visual cues produced by being there and, of course, the three dimensionality of the sound (compared to a two-speaker rendition) made a huge difference.



> As far as the music itself goes, I haven't had a chance to absorb it yet. It is rather more complicated than I am used to. I do not own any other pieces (as far as I know) that use a tone row for tempo as well as the notes themselves.


That's just the start. The relative durations of each group are determined by the tone row, too. Even the starting times are also derived from this row.

Each group has a bandwidth - ie the interval within which the pitches of all the notes of the group lie. There is relatively little octave transposition of pitches, giving each group a certain pitch feel. (The part of the frequency range a group may lie in varies: one group of a minor third might be in the bass, another might be made up of treble frequencies and so on.) The bandwidths are also determined by the pitches of the tone row.

And the way that the row is used to create the work's rhythmic complexity is so complex, itself, and so resistant to paraphrase, that I am afraid I will pass on that.



> As far as Stockhausen himself goes, he kinda creeps me out. I get the sense that he really _is_ from another planet. For some reason, Cage comes across to me as an inquisive and playful spirit and Stockhausen as a mad scientist/alien on the point of being commited.


I think there are plenty of composers - Cage for one, but also Ligeti and Kagel who are "playful" (good word!) and, whether it's 100 metronomes or 111 bicycles, it's all a bit of a laugh. Then there are composers who may be highly experimental (eg early Penderecki) but who are essentially seeking to extend what is already there.

Stockhausen is one of only two composers of the twentieth century I can think of whom I would call 'subversive'. The other is Helmut Lachenmann. I can't justify this (yet). I cannot explain why Xenakis's _Keqrops _isn't subversive, whilst Lachenmann's _Accanto _is, but that is just how I experience these composers' works.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

tdc said:


> My original impression of _Gruppen_, was of an innovative idea, that was executed quite well. For a work composed for 3 orchestras I found it flowed naturally and was very cohesive...


You've raised an interesting point in mind, which is whether Stockhausen intends each orchestra to have its own character, or personality - in the way that the Three Tenors have (going from the sublime to the ridiculous). It may be that each of the 174 groups requires one, two or three orchestras to play it, and three is the minimum number of ensembles you need to execute that intention.



> Finally, people have mentioned the sensuality of _Gruppen_, and I must say I agree this work seems sensual I might go so far as to say maybe even somewhat sexual in nature? Though I am not sure that is what the composer intended.


Well, it wouldn't be the only KS works to have a sexual dimension - eg _Momente _and _Stimmung_.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

crmoorhead said:


> For some reason, Cage comes across to me as an inquisive and playful spirit and Stockhausen as a mad scientist/alien on the point of being commited. Just my (not so informed) opinion of watching him speak on YouTube videos.





Jeremy Marchant said:


> Stockhausen is one of only two composers of the twentieth century I can think of whom I would call 'subversive'.


I have heard various youtube videos with either Cage or Stockhausen speaking. I certainly don't feel I know them from these few glimpses, but the two descriptions above seem to match what I've seen remarkably well.


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## Mika (Jul 24, 2009)

Ckecked today youtube links. Abbado I checked earlier. 








Was there an electric guitar in Rattle version? Didn't see that in another youtube version. Definately this work requires some live experience. Now I can't say anything about this, because it was way to difficult to me. Maybe some further listening help.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Requires live performance to experience it properly, but even just listening to it on YouTube it was a joy for my ears. It has amazing use of tone colours and is exciting all the way through. It's probably THE BEST 20th century orchestral work that wasn't written by *Ligeti.* I had it as background music when I was doing my homework for English. :lol: Thoroughly enjoyed this week's listening. Much better than last week I must say.  (no offence to Liszt)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

tdc said:


> My original impression of _Gruppen_, was of an innovative idea, that was executed quite well. For a work composed for 3 orchestras I found it flowed naturally and was very cohesive, I don't imagine this would be an easy compositional task. I found this work invited me to appreciate orchestral sounds and capabilities in a way that I previously hadn't experienced. It opened my mind to many new orchestral possibilities. I genuinely enjoyed this new listening experience. Finally, people have mentioned the sensuality of _Gruppen_, and I must say I agree this work seems sensual I might go so far as to say maybe even somewhat sexual in nature? Though I am not sure that is what the composer intended. I hope to find time to give it another listen this week, and perhaps post more thoughts.


Have you ever *********** to *Ligeti's* _Melodien?_


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Have you ever *********** to *Ligeti's* _Melodien?_


Nope. I haven't done anything to Ligeti's Melodien. I don't often listen to Ligeti.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Mika said:


> Ckecked today youtube links. Abbado I checked earlier.


Better go with Eotvos



> Was there an electric guitar in Rattle version? Didn't see that in another youtube version.


There is an electric guitar in orchestra II. So it will be in all performances. Conductors don't play fast and loose with instrumentation, whether it is Brahms or KS.



> Definately this work requires some live experience.


Well, you're not going to get that. So I suggest reconciling yourself to the CDs.



> Now I can't say anything about this, because it was way to difficult to me. Maybe some further listening help.


Yep. I seriously suggest listening to it 20 times for starters, just so you can absorb it. Don't bother about listening out for things. But don't have it on in the background either. _Listen _to it rather than hear it. You'll start to hear all sorts of connections. Don't dwell on them. Just concentrate on getting an overview.

This is one of the most complex orchestral scores of the twentieth century. The idea that you might 'get it' in one sitting is absurd - unless, you just abandon yourself to it as an emotional, visceral experience.

It works on these two basic levels. Either you forget about the theory and just immerse yourself in the music. Or you get interested in the theory and you find you're tussling with a very large subject.


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## Mika (Jul 24, 2009)

One more source for Gruppen:
http://www.medici.tv/#!/new-york-philharmonic-park-avenue-armory-alan-gilbert-mozart-stockhausen


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Mika said:


> One more source for Gruppen:
> http://www.medici.tv/#!/new-york-philharmonic-park-avenue-armory-alan-gilbert-mozart-stockhausen


That's a _big _prgram(me). I wish the New York Phil had done what the BBCSO did and which I described in an earlier post. Play it twice (and forget the first time round!).


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