# Choosing Key Signatures



## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

In general I think I know what I'm doing, but a passage I'm working on has an unusual chord progression, where each measure has a different chord associated with it. The progression is as follows:

Bb-eb-D-b-Bb-c#-E7-A-eb-c#-eb-Eb-f-eb-f-F-Eb-c#-Bb-g#-Bb-f-Bb-fm7-Bb

It starts in Bb, and ends in Bb, but in between goes all over the place. If I keep the signature at Bb, there are too many accidentals. But I can't change it for every measure, that would be equally absurd. I settled on a sequence of Bb, A, eb,
f, Eb and then back to Bb. This gives a good rendering in terms of accidentals, but the "keys" in between the starting and ending Bbs aren't really the keys it's in at those points; I chose them rather to reduce the conflicts with accidentals.

Over all, the general feeling seems to be Bb, especially as it begins and ends in that key. But the accidentals are driving me crazy. I'm working in a sequencer, Cakewalk Sonar, which has a notation feature, but it's more for editing than true notation, and it does weird things sometimes with accidentals, like giving you too many double flats and sharps. I hate those! When I'm done, I export to Notion, a dedicated notation program. but I like to clean things up as much as possible before doing that.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Michael


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I can't speak to your software program, but as to key signatures I can say a few things.

First if it really has a tonic, you can use its key signature and have lots of accidentals. If you look at a highly chromatic passage of mature Richard Strauss as an example, you'll see that taking place.

However you can avoid a key signature entirely and just let the chord progression suggest the tonic.

But I played though your progression and I hear it leaning toward E-flat (major/minor). Lean, not positively! Use either of those key sigs and change your # chords to enharmonics (c# minor = d-flat minor, g# minor = a-flat minor, E7 = F-flat 7, b = c-flat, etc) and you'll see fewer accidentals and at least most will be flats.

_BTW: This topic would be better served in the TC Music Theory forum_


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

Thanks very much, Vask. I'm still new around here, I wasn't sure where to post it (mods, feel free to move it). I will try your suggestion and see what it looks like. 

I thought about changing c#m to dbm, but I was under the impression there was no dbm, and similarly for g#m/abm. So I went with the # keys there. But perhaps in actual composition we can actually use those spellings? (The Circle Of Fifth charts I have don't list dbm and abm).


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

While there is no "key" of D-flat minor, the chord itself is perfectly normal (D-flat, F-flat, A-flat).

So, you are conflating key sigs with chords. A key sig tells the player(s) what the overall tonic is. But while in a key sig, you can have many different and perhaps totally unrelated chords depending on how chromatic your music is


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

I see. I really appreciate your help, I'm not formally trained. Many holes in my theoretical scaffolding.


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

I switched it to Eb, and it worked quite well, just a few things to correct. I had thought about Eb, because it kind of "split the difference," that is, was about halfway between the various tonalities the passage meanders through, but it seemed a bit contrived. But if you get the feeling it leans toward Eb, and Eb works so well, then it must make sense.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

You could use Bb at beginning and end, and no key signature in middle to enhance the idea of floating around, if you don’t actually want to suggest a key. That is up to you as the composer.


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> You could use Bb at beginning and end, and no key signature in middle to enhance the idea of floating around, if you don't actually want to suggest a key. That is up to you as the composer.


An interesting idea. But after the initial Bb, it jumps right into the meandering thing. It does briefly reestablish Bb, but then a middle section does occur, and it might make sense to do as you say. Perhaps I'll try it and see what it looks like.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

ok...first of all, your problem really isn't one of key signatures, it really is about conventions in music copying and how best to get your sheet played correctly.

Generally speaking, players can read accidentals, so writing it in Bb and letting the accidentals fall where they may is what players would expect. Believe it or not, it is WAY easier to read a lot of accidentals than it is to deal with a key signature that is changing every few bars. Frankly, if you put a sheet like that in front of me with randomly changing key sigs every few bars, I would just assume you were an idiot and never agree to work for you again. 

so its ok to have accidentals...we can read them just fine

if you are writing for horn players, very often you write everything as flats rather than sharps. Nevermind if it is actually a sharp. You want it played, or do you want to win an argument? horn players are used to seeing flats, and the goal to writing parts is to make things easy for the players, not to throw them curve balls.

so the right and proper thing to do is pick a key sig and write the accidentals. That is what your players are used to seeing, so that is why it is right. Everything else is wrong. It is wrong because it goes against the conventions your players rely on.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> Frankly, if you put a sheet like that in front of me with randomly changing key sigs every few bars, I would just assume you were an idiot and never agree to work for you again.


Yep. On point!!


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

Nate Miller said:


> ok...first of all, your problem really isn't one of key signatures, it really is about conventions in music copying and how best to get your sheet played correctly.
> 
> Generally speaking, players can read accidentals, so writing it in Bb and letting the accidentals fall where they may is what players would expect. Believe it or not, it is WAY easier to read a lot of accidentals than it is to deal with a key signature that is changing every few bars. Frankly, if you put a sheet like that in front of me with randomly changing key sigs every few bars, I would just assume you were an idiot and never agree to work for you again.
> 
> ...


Thank you Nate, very helpful. My sense was indeed that changing signatures frequently was not the way to go. To me the section does feel like it's in Bb, as it starts and ends there, but Vask's suggestion to put it in Eb makes good sense, as it results in a cleaner result. By the way, the piece itself is actually in Db. It's a Berceuse.

The matter may be moot because, as you say, horn players have their preferences. Also, when I finally do the score in Notion, I will use correct transpositions. While working on the piece in a sequencer, it is much easier for me to write at pitch. So, whatever corrections I make there may be irrelevant, as the transposition will give a different rendering anyway. But the question is nonetheless interesting, and it behooves me to learn correct ways of doing things.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Its always best to write your parts in a conventional way to get them played. I learned music copying when I was a kid. My friend's dad was a swing bandleader in the 1950s, and Mr Kohler taught me how to set up a page and all sorts of little tricks of the trade. there's things copyists do that aren't strictly correct, but its all to make it easier to play.

if it really is in Db, I would write it in 5 flats and then any of those C#s, F#s and g#s that come up are all in the key sig already (as flats)


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

Nate Miller said:


> Its always best to write your parts in a conventional way to get them played. I learned music copying when I was a kid. My friend's dad was a swing bandleader in the 1950s, and Mr Kohler taught me how to set up a page and all sorts of little tricks of the trade. there's things copyists do that aren't strictly correct, but its all to make it easier to play.
> 
> if it really is in Db, I would write it in 5 flats and then any of those C#s, F#s and g#s that come up are all in the key sig already (as flats)


Interesting suggestion. Another thing in Eb's favor is that Eb was the last signature immediately before the sequence, so keeping it at Eb is not even a change, but rather what it was in at the time anyway.

But your suggestion is interesting. I will remove all signatures but the starting Db, and see how that looks. Since it's for orchestra, it will be interesting to see how it affects all the instruments.

Maybe I shouldn't bother with changing the accidentals of transposing instruments, since, as I said before, they will get changed automatically in Notion (my notation program). Why deal with them twice? Still, it's a useful exercise, as I'm learning something.


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

My final decision: The piece, which is about 9 minutes long, starts in Db. I change to Eb a little before the middle, leading into the highly modulatory sequence. Then the main theme returns, and I go back to Db. It ends on a surprise D major chord. With this scheme, I only had to correct some double flats (what good are they?), and the only sharps are in the D major chord.

Thanks for the great help!


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

good job respelling those double flats! that's always the best way.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Michael, if this piece is to be read/played by a real orchestra, but not a professional one, then tons of flats is not going to be played well in tune by the strings. They will struggle. If it's not going to read, leave it in D-flat. However, if it's going to be, consider transposing the entire work up a half-step to D major. That's a great key for less than best strings.


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

Thanks for the advice, Vasks. Considering I'm a hobbysit, I don't have high hopes it will be performed. Also, since it's a Berceuse, I would like to keep it in Db. I know a Berceuse doesn't have to be in Db; a composer can do whatever they want etc. But by god it's a Berceuse, and in Db it will stay. 

On the other hand... if a miracle occurs and someone actually wants to perform it, I will keep your advice in mind. I may actually try transposing it up to D just to see what that sounds like. Hell, D is pretty close to Db. I could call it a near-Berceuse.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey Michael:

Faure - Berceuse for Violin and Piano (or Orch) in D major, Op. 16


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

There I go. Putting the "***" once more in "assuming".

I can't believe that was censored. Have Donkeys become obscene?


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