# What is a "hot mess" in classical music?



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

What is a "hot mess" in classical music? I see this expression a lot and wonder if it belongs in the performance or composition critical vocabulary. It occured to me that Brahms finales such as those of the G Minor Piano Quartet or the Piano Quintet end in a "hot mess," or even Brahms's _Tragic Overture_ emotionally conducted by Bernstein with the Vienna Philharmonic might fit the term. But no, upon re-hearing these are exciting, well-controlled works and in the _Tragic Overture_ Bernstein is a rock; even his eccentricities seem to come from some higher secure place that I don't at all know! So, drop Brahms.

The archaic meaning of "hot mess" is (WikiWord): "A warm meal, usually cooked in a large pot, often similar to a stew or porridge; service of such a heated meal to soldiers." More recently a "hot mess" means a person who is disorganized or disorderly while retaining a certain attractiveness. Perhaps Berlioz's _Le Corsair Overture_ is a hot mess. A performance by good players who haven't practiced or rehearsed properly may be a hot mess. Recordings of certain pianists in decline may be hot messes, especially if they too frequently resort to the damper pedal to cover up mistakes!

I even saw a post on TC that referred to someone else's diatribe as a hot mess. What other thoughts come to mind about this expression?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

It has a complex definition, that boils down to "an act of someone being overly-passionate (hot) yet unproficient (mess)."

It's really interesting because, it's used as a noun for an _object_, but it will only describe the subject behind the object (the object ie. "music" is not overly-passionate. The subject is.) That's what makes the word so clever and weird. So when you say a piece is a hot mess, you're saying the composer was being overly-passionate yet unproficient, not the piece, yet the piece is the act of that person.

On the other end, if you're using it to define a person, the original definition is also the most correct. You are hinting at the act or manifestation of someone, not them_selves_. In any circumstance of the word it's describing some 'manifestation' of someone, who themselves is being overly-passionate yet unproficient. The person can never be a hot mess permanently, it's their act that is. "You're a hot mess. You're 'an act of someone being overly-passionate yet unproficient.'"

This is why it's a slightly advanced English term. However you can apply the definition to universally anything and it will stay the same. For example:

"The weather today is a hot mess." I've now given the weather sentient qualities.

"This world is a hot mess." Someone's responsible.

"My hair is being a hot mess." It has a mind of its own.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Hmm, somehow I've never heard this phrase in a classical music context, though people use it all the time in day to day conversation. Where have you heard it used that prompted you to start this thread...?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I recall seeing the expression used to describe the current state of Classical Music, generally reflecting an abhorrence to Contemporary Music. I felt it before myself even when I first joined this site, but I learned it's just a sensory feeling about music that is not pretty. I find some foreign languages not pretty to listen to. But when I learned a few of them (to a very basic level), it's not really the sound that is important, but the content of what I'm hearing being spoken.

I'll never find contemporary music pretty or emotional, but at least it can be intelligible.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

OT; Sounds disgusting. I Googled it and was shocked with the results. 

(PS. I'll be checking out those links later). :devil:


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

What is a "hot mess" in classical music?

Leonard Bernstein's DG recording of Beethoven's 9th to commemorate the demise of the Berlin Wall with an orchestra consiting of musicians from various orchestras; and Bernstein is my favorite conductor and Beethoven my favorite composer.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I've heard the term for a couple of decades, and even though it has a history (going back to the late 1800's, I believe) describing things and situations, the 21st century revival of the term almost always seems to describe people.

"Hot mess is used to describe a particularly disorganized person or chaotic situation. In some uses, a person described as a hot mess is attractive but just barely keeping it together."

So, referring to music with the term, does not seem to be in line with current usage.

But of course, as soon as I saw the thread title, I knew it would be used (on TC) to refer to contemporary music. Only took 4 posts.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Hmm, somehow I've never heard this phrase in a classical music context, though people use it all the time in day to day conversation. Where have you heard it used that prompted you to start this thread...?


https://operachic.typepad.com/opera_chic/turandot/
See the review from 2010 of Seville _Turandot_ -- interaction of orchestra and chorus a "hot mess"

https://www.classical-scene.com/2020/03/05/adawagin-pratt-richness/
Pianist's Franck _Prelude, Chorale and Fugue_ a "hot mess;" reviewer declares intent not negative

You asked what prompted me to start the thread. It was another review in a New York publication on Google that used the term -- from 2014 I believe, though I can't find it today. It was in reference to a muddy Vladimir Horowitz performance. I wasn't there, but can say in reference to a New York Horowitz performance I attended in 1978 that allegro passages in his Liszt _B Minor Sonata_ were very smeared due to over-pedalling. Others have noted this problem too. Yet Horowitz's playing elsewhere in the work was very beautiful -- the idea is that he preserved the greatness of the work despite these over-pedalled passages. The previous time I heard Horowitz live he was terrific all the way through.

I was not referring to dissonant or dense contemporary music. In performance I'm thinking of piano or large ensemble playing by reasonably good (at least) musicians, wading through a difficult work without enough individual practice, rehearsal time, etc. -- or maybe just having an off day. I don't have another example of extending the term to compositions beyond Berlioz's _Le Corsair Overture_ but am working on it. Perhaps Scriabin's famous _Etude_, op. 8, no. 12 is inherently a hot mess, (unless the performer is superb). In summary: fine musicians/composer, some attractiveness (maybe romantic), disorganized or disorderly result.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> What is a "hot mess" in classical music?


Most of Charles Ives. :lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I think Berio’s Sinfonia is a good example of the term - in a positive sense IMO. It’s a mess, but it’s a glorious mess!


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Schnittke's _Symphony No. 1_ comes to mind, but, honestly, 'hot mess' doesn't really mean anything and it actually sounds pretty dumb to me.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I recall seeing the expression used to describe the current state of Classical Music, generally reflecting an abhorrence to Contemporary Music. I felt it before myself even when I first joined this site, but I learned it's just a sensory feeling about music that is not pretty. I find some foreign languages not pretty to listen to. But when I learned a few of them (to a very basic level), it's not really the sound that is important, but the content of what I'm hearing being spoken.
> I'll never find contemporary music pretty or emotional, but at least it can be intelligible.


With stuff like avant-garde, atonal, serial music, I find that a lot of them are just reflecting the "modern culture". It's kind of like how "horror films" didn't exist before the 20th century, but they exist now and are a big part of what represents the modern culture. And so, the music has to reflect that sort of "entertainment aesthetics" as well.
They can actually sound "appropriate" (not necessarily "ugly" or "incomprehensible"), if used in the right context (such as music for film scenes), but if you ask me, the biggest issue I have with them is that they're too "forgettable" to me. It's just my opinion, I see no reason to listen to obscure composers' music that I would forget right after hearing it.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Berg's _Three Pieces for Orchestra_ comes to mind as well.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Night on Bald Mountain*.

Hot and messy.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think Berio's Sinfonia is a good example of the term - in a positive sense IMO. It's a mess, but it's a glorious mess!


Leonard Bernstein's Mass, too. A glorious, over-the-top hot mess.

Berg's Three Orchestra Pieces, what? How is that superbly crafted, elegantly formed, and powerful set of pieces in any way a mess? I'll grant "hot," because that is some intensely emotional music, but "mess"?


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Knorf said:


> Leonard Bernstein's Mass, too. A glorious, over-the-top hot mess.
> 
> Berg's Three Orchestra Pieces, what? How is that superbly crafted, elegantly formed, and powerful set of pieces in any way a mess? I'll grant "hot," because that is some intensely emotional music, but "mess"?


Bernstein's _Mass_ or _mess_, is a perplexing work. Like his idol, Mahler, Bernstein is really trying hard to be ambitious and all-encompassing. Parts of it are brilliant and other parts of it sound dated and tacky. I suspect that Bernstein himself wasn't terribly pleased with it because when Bernstein went from Columbia to DG it was one of the few large scale works of his own composition that he did not revisit, except for a re-working of some of the instrumental music re-arranged for cello and orchestra called _Three Meditations from Mass_ that he recorded with the Israel Philharmonic and Mstislav Rostropovich as soloist. _Three Meditations_ works well as a stand-alone piece for cello and orchestra, sort of a Bernstein _Cello Concerto_, and having the _then_ world's greatest living cellist in tow doesn't hurt matters.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Berg's _Three Pieces for Orchestra_ comes to mind as well.


The nature and extent of Berg's Expressionist musical idiom in _Three Pieces for Orchestra_ has given me at times the "hot mess" experience, becoming straight-out fear (!) occasionally. But I've just listened while following the score, which is surprisingly orderly. A number of writers note the influence of Mahler that I'd overlooked before. I think now that sustained focus of attention on the main motifs only until they become familiar might be the key to comprehension.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

consuono said:


> Most of Charles Ives. :lol:


I don't agree overall, but Ives's _Fourth Symphony_ has struck me that way. Maybe I'm trying to read too much into it.

My OP I hope will not be taken too seriously. If I need an excuse, "we're now into the silly season!"


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Students of Schoenberg are incapable of hot messes!! You think they could even make anything like a mess after he droned on about the genius of developing variation for years on end?? Anyways, Scriabin’s unfinished Mysterium gives me hot mess vibes, and also some of Rautavaara’s stuff (but in a good way). I think Hans Abrahamsen is the most anti-hot mess composer ever, if there ever was such a thing


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I know this won't sit well with a lot of Mahler fans, but I think his eighth symphony is almost in "hot mess" territory. The grandeur of the thing and Mahler's skill at holding it together save it, but it's not my favorite among his symphonies.
Another one might be Shostakovich's seventh symphony. And hey, I love both of those composers, but still.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Coach G said:


> Bernstein's _Mass_ or _mess_, is a perplexing work. Like his idol, Mahler, Bernstein is really trying hard to be ambitious and all-encompassing. Parts of it are brilliant and other parts of it sound dated and tacky. I suspect that Bernstein himself wasn't terribly pleased with it because when Bernstein went from Columbia to DG it was one of the few large scale works of his own composition that he did not revisit, except for a re-working of some of the instrumental music re-arranged for cello and orchestra called _Three Meditations from Mass_ that he recorded with the Israel Philharmonic and Mstislav Rostropovich as soloist. _Three Meditations_ works well as a stand-alone piece for cello and orchestra, sort of a Bernstein _Cello Concerto_, and having the _then_ world's greatest living cellist in tow doesn't hurt matters.


I seem to recall that *MASS* was also released in "Quad", and the composition, or parts of it, deliberately explored that "four corners of sound", much like a horror film in 3D deliberately dangles or points things directly in front of your face.


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> It has a complex definition, that boils down to "an act of someone being overly-passionate (hot) yet unproficient (mess)."


Not too complex, I don't think. My brief research - from dictionaries - Cambridge, Oxford etc - is that it is informal/slang in the US - doubtless being imported worldwide as we speak .

In the sense of 'a one-pot hot meal' (which is how I'm familiar with it) it dates from the end of the 18thC. In the sense of 'A person or thing that is spectacularly unsuccessful or disordered, especially one that is a source of peculiar fascination' (Lexico) it seems relatively recent.

Not an expression I'm likely to use in any context, let alone classical music.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Coach G said:


> Bernstein's _Mass_ or _mess_, is a perplexing work. Like his idol, Mahler, Bernstein is really trying hard to be ambitious and all-encompassing. Parts of it are brilliant and other parts of it sound dated and tacky. I suspect that Bernstein himself wasn't terribly pleased with it because when Bernstein went from Columbia to DG it was one of the few large scale works of his own composition that he did not revisit, except for a re-working of some of the instrumental music re-arranged for cello and orchestra called _Three Meditations from Mass_ that he recorded with the Israel Philharmonic and Mstislav Rostropovich as soloist. _Three Meditations_ works well as a stand-alone piece for cello and orchestra, sort of a Bernstein _Cello Concerto_, and having the _then_ world's greatest living cellist in tow doesn't hurt matters.





Knorf said:


> Leonard Bernstein's Mass, too. A glorious, over-the-top hot mess.


I wouldn't describe Bernstein's _Mass_ as a "mess." Over the years the critical opinion of the work has risen considerably, so that today that it is considered not only one of his best works but an important work of the 20th century.

This does not surprise me since I've been an enthusiastic advocate of _Mass _since it premiered - but am happy to see it validated (not that it needed it) by the "professional" elite.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Not an expression I'm likely to use in any context, let alone classical music.


I see your point of view. Enough other posters on this thread share it to make me discontinue using such expressions on TC.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Roger Knox said:


> I see your point of view. Enough other posters on this thread share it to make me discontinue using such expressions on TC.


Linguistic snobbery is no reason not to use it. It's a slang term. So what?


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2020)

consuono said:


> Linguistic snobbery is no reason not to use it. It's a slang term. So what?


Linguistic snobbery is absolutely valid! It's not the fact that it is slang to which I object, but that it is imported.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> Linguistic snobbery is absolutely valid! It's not the fact that it is slang to which I object, but that it is imported.


As was a good chunk of the rest of the English language.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2020)

consuono said:


> As was a good chunk of the rest of the English language.


I didn't claim my snobbery was logical.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> I didn't claim my snobbery was logical.


It's OK...er, all right, I share the feeling about a lot of homegrown neologisms or slang or whatever you call them. "Hot mess" though is a good description of things here at the moment. So it RULEZ!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I have presumed that "hot" was just added to emphasize "mess," as opposed to a standard mess. I have heard it used in particular in regard to people, especially women, who are dressed provocatively but with no real sense of style.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I think you could call call the gargantuan ,mind-bogglingly complex , nearly two hour long "Gothic " symphony of English composer Havergal Brian ( 1876-1972 ) a hot mess . 
It's absolutely impossible to grasp this incredible work on first hearing . Brian compose din a kind of stream of consciousness manner which can easily seem totally incoherent a first but with repeated listings they begin to make more sense . 
You can almost count all of the live performances this amazing work has received on one hand , and there has only been one studio recording so far , originally on Marco Polo but later issued on Naxos .
So many performers are required it's virtually impossible to fit them all into your average concert hall . You can hear the legendary live performance form England's massive Albert Hal from the 60s conducted by Sr Adrian Boult . David Hurwitz at Classics day calls the performance a "train wreck " , and while it's not perfectly executed , which would most likely be impossible in a live performance, it's far form being a train wreck . 
Hurwitz is notorious for his wildly exaggerated descriptions of technical flaws in recordings he reviews , always making a mountain out of a molehill . 
But you should not miss the Gothic symphony . There's nothing else quite like it ,not even Schoenberg's Gurrelieder .


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Knorf said:


> Berg's Three Orchestra Pieces, what? How is that superbly crafted, elegantly formed, and powerful set of pieces in any way a mess? I'll grant "hot," because that is some intensely emotional music, but "mess"?


I guess you missed my post where I said 'hot mess' doesn't really have any significant meaning to me. It's actually a stupid, lowbrow term to use to describe any kind of music to begin with. But to play along with the OP, my posts are mere suggestions or possible 'ideas' of works that could be considered to be a 'hot mess'. It doesn't mean it's 100% accurate nor is it something _you_ have to agree with.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

superhorn said:


> David Hurwitz ... calls the performance a "train wreck " , and while it's not perfectly executed , which would most likely be impossible in a live performance, it's far form being a train wreck .


Aha, the eminent David Hurwitz uses the slang expression "train wreck," on a web site that people even PAY to belong to. So it must be OK! And yet, I hold that "train wreck" lacks the redeeming empathetic undertone and sense of hope in "hot mess." As for Havergal Brian, I'm not sure whether it's the title _Gothic Symphony_ or the nearly 2-hour length that scares me more ...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Have you heard the Gothic symphony ? It certainly isn't easy listening but it's mind-bending experience you shouldn't 
miss !


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