# Symphonies that are better on the piano?



## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

There was comment on the thread talking about about Brahms's 4th symphony by MarkW (I don't know how to link this directly) where he describes hearing the first movement transcribed for piano and by being struck by some of the harmonic intrigue that he hadn't noticed in the orchestral version.

It called to memory the following comment on Scriabin's 3rd symphony by student of Taneyev:

"One has to hear how Alexander Nikolayevich [Scriabin] himself plays this symphony on the piano, he made of it a kind of Poème for piano. The impression is unforgettable, and it sounds much better than with an orchestra."

As it turns out, I never heard the man himself play his own symphony, but it got me wondering:

Does anyone else have some other examples of this sort of thing?

Are there some other lost piano masterpieces languishing in the orchestral canon?


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Transcriptions in general often shed light on specific qualities and help in looking at music in different ways. Speaking of brahms' symphonies, a favorite topic of mine, I must say I like his third symphony on two pianos.






the rest can be found here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I can imagine that any number of mediocre symphonies would sound better if played by a good pianist with nuances of expression impossible to a large ensemble. The more uniform timbre of a keyboard can also focus harmonic effects, specifically dissonances, more sharply than the varied instrumentation of orchestral scoring, sometimes simply by removing the distraction of diverse timbres. The effect is much the same as that of a black and white photo of a colored painting, wherein certain design features stand out more clearly and assume greater importance.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I prefer the LvB 8th this way. As mentioned, it brought out harmonic and dynamic contrasts that I struggled to hear in the orchestral version


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm not suggesting that it would be better than the original but I'd like to hear a piano/vocal reduction of Shostakovich's 14th symphony as to my way of thinking it's a song cycle anyway. Maybe the bleakness of the texts would be enhanced by the light and shade which a single piano gives - it's for that same reason I prefer the piano version of Shostakovich's song cycle set to the poems of Marina Tsvetaeva to the orchestral one.


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## peebles (Aug 9, 2017)

Dear bigboy,

I think this is a wonderful question. For me, it suggests the question about what happens whenever art is transcribed from one form into another. Sometimes it has the potential to illuminate and other times to dampen the effect. I think, for example, of something of a reverse scenario like Debussy's responses to Satie, which to my ear made me more greatly appreciate the originals for their simplicity. But now that I type this, I wonder if maybe there isn't always some power in simplifying, like Pascal's quote that if he had had more time, he would have written a shorter letter.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

You got me to thinking. Beethoven's symphonies have been transcribed to piano, but I wonder if any of Mahler's symphonies have been and what they would sound like. 

As I understood it, the piano transcriptions were done mainly to make it so people could enjoy the symphony in their parlor, since most people could not afford an entire orchestra, they could a least enjoy the symphony to some extent with a piano.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> You got me to thinking. Beethoven's symphonies have been transcribed to piano, but I wonder if any of Mahler's symphonies have been and what they would sound like.
> 
> As I understood it, the piano transcriptions were done mainly to make it so people could enjoy the symphony in their parlor, since most people could not afford an entire orchestra, they could a least enjoy the symphony to some extent with a piano.


My guess is that Mahler's symphonies wouldn't fare well in piano transcription, except in simpler, song-like passages (his songs work pretty well in piano reduction, but still lose something). Berlioz sounds even less good on piano; the _Symphonie Fantastique_ is almost unimaginable.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> My guess is that Mahler's symphonies wouldn't fare well in piano transcription, except in simpler, song-like passages (his songs work pretty well in piano reduction, but still lose something). Berlioz sounds even less good on piano; the _Symphonie Fantastique_ is almost unimaginable.


Which symphonies _do_ fare well in piano transcription, then, if I may ask? I'm not implying I disagree with you, by the way.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I only know of Liszt transcriptions, but haven't heard them. Did a quick search on spotify, and Naxos albums are listed with Beethoven amongst others. I once heard a piano-transcription of the famous Shostakovich string quartet no. 8 and was thrilled!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

It's not quite an answer to your question, but the orchestral transcriptions I like most are the Wagner/Gould Maestersinger and Siegfried Idyll. There's also a good piano transcription of l'Apres Midi d'un Faune.

Re the discussion above I've heard The Mahler/Stevenson Symphony 10 and the Berlioz/Liszt symphony fantastique, I'd need to think a bit and relisten to make any comments.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Which symphonies _do_ fare in piano transcription, then, if I may ask? I'm not implying I disagree with you, by the way.


You may ask indeed, but since piano transcriptions of symphonies are not common fare and I don't go out of my way to hear them, I can only theorize that music less dependent on diverse timbres and sheer sonic power will, in general, sound more idiomatic on piano. 18th-century orchestral music, in general, transcribes well, not only to keyboard but to various small ensembles of winds (Blaesermusik) and/or strings. I can imagine a lot of Classical symphonies making very decent piano sonatas. Despite that, good composers write idiomatically for their medium of choice, and certain orchestral effects - e.g. tremolo for strings, long pedal points, portamenti beween notes - can't be preceisely reproduced on a keyboard, just as rapid scales and filigree in keyboard music are less effective, even when playable, on orchestral instruments.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

While not a symphony, Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition has been transcribed to just about any instrument you want, perhaps even harmonica!

Here is one for two harps, but I am not sure it is very becoming of the harps.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> It's not quite an answer to your question, but the orchestral transcriptions I like most are the Wagner/Gould Maestersinger and Siegfried Idyll. There's also a good piano transcription of l'Apres Midi d'un Faune.


Those are great fun to hear. Gould makes the _Idyll_ into a serene, highly nuanced meditation at a daringly slow tempo. Have you heard him conduct the original? I don't find the slowness nearly as effective when he can't play with phrasing and articulation as he does at the piano.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> You may ask indeed, but since piano transcriptions of symphonies are not common fare and I don't go out of my way to hear them, I can only theorize that music less dependent on diverse timbres and sheer sonic power will, in general, sound more idiomatic on piano. 18th-century orchestral music, in general, transcribes well, not only to keyboard but to various small ensembles of winds (Blaesermusik0) and/or strings. I can imagine a lot of Classical symphonies making very decent piano sonatas. Despite that, good composers write idiomatically for their medium of choice, and certain orchestral effects - e.g. tremolo for strings, long pedal points, portamenti beween notes - can't be preceisely reproduced on a keyboard, just as rapid scales and filigree in keyboard music are less effective, even when playable, on orchestral instruments.


Thank you, but where should the line be drawn between Classical and non-Classical symphonies in this specific context? On which side do symphonies by Schumann, Brahms or Dvorak fall, for instance?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Thank you, but where should the line be drawn between Classical and non-Classical symphonies in this specific context? On which side do symphonies by Schumann, Brahms or Dvorak fall, for instance?


I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't think a clear line can be drawn, or see why it needs to be. Those are all considered Romantic composers, but the adherence to traditional Classical concepts of the symphony in their works varies. As far as effectiveness on piano is concerned, Brahms wrote piano versions of some of his own orchestral music (the Haydn Variations) which sound quite nice.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't think a clear line can be drawn, or see why it needs to be. Those are all considered Romantic composers, but the adherence to traditional Classical concepts of the symphony in their works varies. As far as effectiveness on piano is concerned, Brahms wrote piano versions of some of his own orchestral music (the Haydn Variations) which sound quite nice.


It seems to work quite nicely with the Rhenish at least.


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## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> It's not quite an answer to your question, but the orchestral transcriptions I like most are the Wagner/Gould Maestersinger and Siegfried Idyll. There's also a good piano transcription of l'Apres Midi d'un Faune.
> 
> Re the discussion above I've heard The Mahler/Stevenson Symphony 10 and the Berlioz/Liszt symphony fantastique, I'd need to think a bit and relisten to make any comments.


Do you know who did this piano transcription of l'Apres Midi? Was it Debussy himself?


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

All of the Mahler Symphonies have indeed been transcribed for piano (4 hands or two pianos). No's 1 and 10 have been transcribed for solo piano. Apparently 1, 2, 6, 7 and 10 have been recorded.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Rachmaninoff's Third Symphony for piano duet is worth thinking about (which would have brought it closer to his Symphonic Dances written around five years later in 1940).

Glazunov's Sixth is a toss-up. Rachmaninoff did a brilliant transcription of the masterwork, but this symphony works well in either version. The sort of balletic Tchaikovsky's Third Symphony is a possibility.


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