# Composers -- are they artists, artisans, engineers or scientists?



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

There´s the question. *Composers -- are they artists, artisans, engineers or scientists?*

In the vote you may choose 2 options. This makes preferences more visible.

I am of the belief that as music is an absolutely huge and multidimensional field with many functions, medias, audiences, cultures and canons, there are also many kinds of composers. Those who are artists, those who are artisans/craftsmen, those who are musical engineers and those who are rather scientific in their methods and views about music. And everything in between and overlapping.

The problem arrives when listeners, critics or composers of one kind of approach try to enforce their values upon other kinds of listeners, critics and composers. I have seen this happen on this forum as well to some extent.

Please share your opinion!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

you missed of drunks...


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

...mathematicians...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

... philosophers....


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Artists...... not necessarily as performers.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

More seriously though, I'd still default to calling them 'artists'. Whatever their intent, they make use of musical raw material to create a finished product, usually for public consumption and, hopefully, appreciation.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Forster said:


> More seriously though, I'd still default to calling them 'artists'. Whatever their intent, they make use of musical raw material to create a finished product, usually for public consumption and, hopefully, appreciation.


Would that not hold for artisans as well?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> those who are rather scientific in their methods and views about music.


There's no evidence of Bach or Mozart ever discussing "musical profundity" in any of their correspondence. For them, the purpose of music-making would have been to instill in people sense of willingness to submit to religious dogmas, or for their entertainment or pedagogy. It's not (objectively) wrong to view them as craftsmen, just "overly sentimental" ones of their kind. (People haven't defined the absolute difference between "sentimentality" and "profundity" anyway.)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I admit I consider many composers who create functional music in the entertainment industry as artisans. If I created such music, that would make me an artisan myself. Then again I have decided a long time ago that I will not let my music be functional, because for me my music means art and that’s it.

Artisan composers will most likely be able to operate as artists should they so choose. So it is not a matter of skill level necessarily.

In order to achieve what I want musically a lot of engireening-kind-of skills are required, though. So my choises were artist + engineer.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> Would that not hold for artisans as well?


Yes, undoubtedly. Any broad definition will encompass more than one category; any narrow definition will lead to the kind of pedantic debate which some here enjoy and others revile.

Today, I'm in an inclusive mood.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> I admit I consider many composers who create functional music in the entertainment industry as artisans. If I created such music, that would make me an artisan myself. Then again I have decided a long time ago that I will not let my music be functional, because for me my music means art and that’s it.
> 
> Artisan composers will most likely be able to operate as artists should they so choose. So it is not a matter of skill level necessarily.
> 
> In order to achieve what I want musically a lot of engireening-kind-of skills are required, though. So my choises were artist + engineer.


I'd go along with this. Having been paid as an artisan as defined here, just occassionally I did get the chance to write more meaningful music, but not that often.
To be an artisan in media and survive succesfully, one needs a wide technical skill base that covers a lot of styles. Inevitably, most of those skills are rarely called upon but are available the moment the artisan decides to write for him/herself. So yes the cross-over between a qualified artisan and artist imv is simply a shift in musical focus.


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## shaun fernandez (6 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> There´s the question. *Composers -- are they artists, artisans, engineers or scientists?*
> 
> In the vote you may choose 2 options. This makes preferences more visible.
> 192.168.100.1 192.168.1.1​I am of the belief that as music is an absolutely huge and multidimensional field with many functions, medias, audiences, cultures and canons, there are also many kinds of composers. Those who are artists, those who are artisans/craftsmen, those who are musical engineers and those who are rather scientific in their methods and views about music. And everything in between and overlapping.
> ...


I think they are more of artists than other thing ! Engineers creators yes !


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

What’s the difference between an artisan and an artist? Sorry English isn’t my main language


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> What’s the difference between an artisan and an artist? Sorry English isn’t my main language


Artisan is kinda like craftsman.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artisan


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Shouldn't fundraisers be an option? They need some grant money.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Taxi drivers.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> Artisan is kinda like craftsman.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artisan


Note that the link in wiki to the word 'artist' has this disclaimer:



> The examples and perspective in this article *may not represent a worldwide view of the subject*.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> There's no evidence of Bach or Mozart ever discussing "musical profundity" in any of their correspondence. For them, the purpose of music-making would have been to instill in people sense of willingness to submit to religious dogmas, or for their entertainment or pedagogy.


At least for Bach I am reasonably confident that he took the view of the christian tradition (including Luther) for granted, that music was in some way an image of cosmic celestial harmony, however imperfect and thus contributing to praising the glory of god. That's why music is conducive to strenghten faith etc. and even positive in neutral or secular context, like as a private pastime. [I suspect practical guys like Luther also preferred that people played music in their pastime instead of dice, cards, with knives or with ladies of dubious reputation...]
I am not sure about Mozart, but the Masons also seem to have kept such aspects of a worldview (underlying cosmic harmony etc.) that seems rather premodern to us. I guess that's profound in a literal sense but probably not what most people think of as musical profundity today.
In both cases, they would probably have seen it as unnecessary to reflect about this in letters, they were not aesthetics professors, but musicians.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

They are composers, some of whom have delusions of being artists, artisans, engineers or scientists. The latter two are by far the most dangerous type.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The list doesn’t provide any answer which jumps ahead of something a director told me years ago… that we, as young actors, would be best to recognize ourselves first of all as aspiring craftsman, we had to develop our craft first and foremost. If we did this successfully and progressed and were fortunate, there would be moments when people other than ourselves would refer to us as artists. I bought into that then and I am inclined to apply it to composers as well.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As someone who has spent a career in science & engineering, I'd say that those who chose 'engineering' don't really understand exactly what that means ... which is not really a surprise because there is a general misunderstanding of the terms.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Insofar as they create something new they are artists and inventors. An engineer creates structure where there is none to specifications; not sure it that is a composer since most of them start from the 8-note scale and bar line. They are probably craftspeople but probably not scientists since there is a clear demarcation between art and science. Musicians that are composers are sometimes mathematicians; some people think that is science but I doubt it when applied to music.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am reminded of a fascinating conversation that I had with Daniel Harding when he was starting his second career as an airline pilot when he was discussing the similarities and differences which it had with music. One key point is that in flying, identifying, managing and minimizing risk is critical whereas with music, taking risks is where you often find the beauty ... "and if you crash, it doesn't matter!"


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> As someone who has spent a career in science & engineering, I'd say that those who chose 'engineering' don't really understand exactly what that means ... which is not really a surprise because there is a general misunderstanding of the terms.


In this poll, especially the terms 'engineers' and 'scientists' are not to be taken too literally. There are audio and sound engineers; it is obvious a composer also needs to understand something about acoustics and physics. Certain compositions do require a lot of work with computers and audio device. Certain structural compositions require some serious planning which is not all that far from the planning work some engineers proper do. I was referring to that kind of aspects of being a composer. It is not just ink on paper nowadays after spending a few hours at the harpsichord.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> To be an artisan in media and survive succesfully, one needs a wide technical skill base that covers a lot of styles.


"You never know which skill will pay the bill"
---Jerry Goldsmith


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If you aren't already familiar with 'Punkt Contrapunkt' from the first Hoffnung Music Festival, then you should listen to this 😁


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fabulin said:


> "You never know which skill will pay the bill"
> ---Jerry Goldsmith


Excellent and so darn true. He had the longest pony tail I'd ever seen when I met him.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Waehnen said:


> There´s the question. *Composers -- are they artists, artisans, engineers or scientists?*
> ...
> Please share your opinion!



Well, from what I hear by way of listening to a lot of the "new music" being "composed", music in various genres, I'd suggest that most of the composers of today are "wannabes". This may be true moreso in the area of "popular" music, where one has a plethora of generally attractive dancers who would rather be thought of as musicians (including as composers). Of course, some of the fault must lie with audiences who seem not to be able to distinguish between an attractive dancer and a musician/composer.

I do suspect it's difficult to enter the field of musical composition and be able to steer away from being "like" someone, especially one who is admired and/or a great mentor. Originality is not something one can just assign to him- or herself. It's one of those ineffable qualities that geniuses and talents have modicums of naturally but the remainder of us can only dream of possessing should we wish to be originals. It may take years to find one's voice; how many careers last long enough for that to actually happen in a significant manner?

Artists are generally thought of as being "originals", though most are not. Many are called, few are chosen. Of course, I'm drawing a distinction here that likely should not be drawn: that a true composer is an original. Actually, anyone who can "create" a melody, or a tone pattern, I suspect, can be termed "a composer". To include "artist" as a requirement demands a number of definitions being placed into contention.

Were I familiar with Anton Bruckner only by way of what I read about his music, I would think he was an engineer, due to the use of the word "architecture" in so many of the discussions of his music. I suspect that the same quality of being able to effectively respond to "balance" and "design" and "structural flow" applies equally to good engineers and good composers.

Xenakis was an architect. Some folks will maintain that that is all he ever was, not a composer. I beg to differ, but I suspect that his architectural training and the skills and awarenesses derived by way of it had a great effect upon his musical-creation consciousness. If Xenakis brings engineering considerations to music, could a differently trained Bruckner, or Beethoven, or Bach have brought musical considerations to engineering?

I once read that Mozart's sister remarked that had her brother not become a composer, he would certainly have been a good mathematician. I sense a link between mathematics and music, and talent in one area may well promote a talent in the other. There seems to be much evidence linking math and music, though I've known personally at least one great mathematical genius who was completely confounded by music.

Science, of course, is wide ranging, and the science behind sound can certainly prove an effective influencer for a composer. A minimal knowledge of acoustics may well aid a composer. Certainly the science of volume will prompt a composer to realize that a trio of loudly blown horns will literally negate a clarinet playing pianissimo. The science underlying music may not be the same as that underlying nuclear physics or biology or medicine or meteorology, but it is there, and one should be able to argue that a composer of any competence has some information about the science of his art.

I could likely go copiously on, but would, in the end, say as little as I've already said, the problem being, I think, that the issue under discussion here falls more into the area of absurdity than of meaningfulness. Me? I'm a fan of theatre of the absurd and absurdist poetry and Dada art, so I took the bait. I'm not so sure, however, that any of you should have bothered to read to this final sentence, there being, in the end, no real point (except, of course the period).


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## Caroline (Oct 27, 2018)

Craftsmen
Poets ('tone poet' or Tondicter used by Beethoven)
Artist (Beethoven referred to his music as 'Kunst')
Entrepreneurs/Sales and Marketing
Innovators

Kudos for the thoughtful question.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> What’s the difference between an artisan and an artist? Sorry English isn’t my main language


nvm..........


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> The same one as between artesano y artista


I meant I didn’t know the definition of artisan, I just google translated it and I know the Dutch word for it


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> If you aren't already familiar with 'Punkt Contrapunkt' from the first Hoffnung Music Festival, then you should listen to this 😁


Becca, you said it is delusional of composers to think they would be artists or artisans, not to mention engineers.

Then you made clear music making is nothing compared to, say, some aviation engineering.

Then you posted a humorous link behind which there is music by some made-up contemporary composer.

Are you trying to belittle the composers or boast the sciences and engineering somehow?

Your tone is like ”quit the playing you composers, engineering is the stuff for adults”.

I must be wrong? 

I admit to not liking your tone a bit.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> Becca, you said it is delusional of composers to think they would be artists or artisans, not to mention engineers.
> 
> Then you made clear music making is nothing compared to, say, some aviation engineering.
> 
> ...


That makes two of us.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> That makes two of us.


Please address the situation like the adult you are. I wanna clear out any misunderstandings.

The art scene got enough of belittling during the covid lockdowns. It became obvious that the level of appreciation of culture is not too high even in the western societies. It was quite depressing, really.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Don't let anyone fool you, we composers are really a bunch of shady charlatans.


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

A mixture of all, some more than others, depending on the type of music you create.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> Please address the situation like the adult you are. I wanna clear out any misunderstandings.
> 
> The art scene got enough of belittling during the covid lockdowns. It became obvious that the level of appreciation of culture is not too high even in the western societies. It was quite depressing, really.


It is a sad commentary that I even need to address the situation for you, others seem to have gotten it.

_Becca, you said it is delusional of composers to think they would be artists or artisans, not to mention engineers._
It was a joke ... and good jokes usually have an element of truth in them. I notice that you didn't complain about another post which referred to drunks.

_Then you made clear music making is nothing compared to, say, some aviation engineering._
Do you know who Daniel Harding is? Perhaps you should look him up then re-read my post.

_Then you posted a humorous link behind which there is music by some made-up contemporary composer._
It is perhaps understandable that you are unfamiliar with Gerard Hoffnung, but his 'festivals' were put on by some of the best British classical musicians of the time, e.g. Malcolm Arnold. It often takes an insider to parody the subject.

_Are you trying to belittle the composers or boast the sciences and engineering somehow?

Your tone is like ”quit the playing you composers, engineering is the stuff for adults”._
No comment.

A sense of humour and dropping the 'ad homs' ('adults') is recommended.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

honestly, to work with the art of music, I believe the modern artist has to consider acoustics as a physics and perception as a psychology.

the trouble with English as a language for discussing music is that the words are over romanticized. In German isn't the term for "musical composition" simply "tone satz"? So I say that in this discussion, you have to take into account the language you are having the discussion in. If we used the term "Tone structure" instead of "composition" we might see more readily that there is a craft, and there is science involved in the nature of vibrating systems, so the ideas of "artist" and "scientist" dont need to be a binary either or.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> It is a sad commentary that I even need to address the situation for you, others seem to have gotten it.
> 
> _Becca, you said it is delusional of composers to think they would be artists or artisans, not to mention engineers._
> It was a joke ... and good jokes usually have an element of truth in them. I notice that you didn't complain about another post which referred to drunks.
> ...


I am happy you clarified it was all humour! I did not see it all as humour at the 1st, 2nd and 3rd read. So thanks. The attitude I thought I was getting from your multiple texts did not lighten me up, so I had to mention it to you. To clear things up.

And for the record: I really do not allow myself pettiness. So if I ask or say something, I mean it and I am never looking for a fight or trying to put someone down, never.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

RobertJTh said:


> Don't let anyone fool you, we composers are really a bunch of shady charlatans.


I suspected as much. After all, it would presume a _truly_ "shady charlatan" to move a passionless, pragmatic snoot like me to tears, or to laughter, or into an unabashed dancing mood from a mere aural confrontation with a concoction of strung together musical tones. Yet, it happens all the time.

Bravo! Bravo ... all you shady charlatans!


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Composers are hierophants of an ancient mystery tradition


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Composers are hierophants of an ancient mystery tradition


 ...maybe, but without the robes...


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## st Omer (Sep 23, 2015)

Definittely artists without question, at leat the great one. The rules of the game indicated we could only choose 2 of the 4 options. I am of the opinion that with the great composers all options apply. I see that I am the only one who chose the scientist option. The great synthetic chemists are scientists of a high level. I believe constructing a great work of musical art involves some science in combining the the right notes and the elements of harmony, rythm, melody, and so forth.


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