# "Indian" music in Westerns



## msegers

I recently joined a friend who loves Westerns in watching an old black and white film. When the Native Americans / Indians came on, I realized that there was an inevitable bit of music that is almost always associated with their presence in Western films.

I have no idea what the the name of it is or who the composer is. I assume that anyone who has ever seen a Western has heard it.

Any idea?


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## d.kowlesar

Why do people still refer to them as Indians? I am Indian. Not anywhere near America, not even my roots. The people you are referring to are Native American. Period. NOT Native American/Indian.


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## Lang

Well, in the UK you would be an Indian, and in the wider context, an Asian. But for the last hundred years or so we have been calling the native Americans 'Indians' or 'American Indians'. Over here the term 'native American' has not really caught on, like many of the other PC terms, so we still say 'Cowboys and Indians'. In the same way, the word 'Oriental' is in the UK a non- pejorative descriptive word, not a term of abuse.


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## lovekieu

i think it is cool


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## d.kowlesar

I guess it would be up to me to understand that there is no harm intended with the use of this term but it is rather mis-leading


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## Elgarian

d.kowlesar said:


> I guess it would be up to me to understand that there is no harm intended with the use of this term but it is rather mis-leading


There's definitely no harm intended. The way to look at it, I think, is as a piece of cultural history. In Hollywood westerns of the period, native americans were_ always_ referred to as 'indians', or 'red indians', and all these references are being made in that context.


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## msegers

d.kowlesar said:


> Why do people still refer to them as Indians? I am Indian. Not anywhere near America, not even my roots. The people you are referring to are Native American. Period. NOT Native American/Indian.


Deep apologies for any pain my post may have caused, but as others on this thread have pointed out, that's just the way that language is used. You will not find the words "Native Americans" in any of the films to which I referred. The words used are Indian, "******," red-skins, and so forth. In fact, Native Americans (my preferred word) resent the use as athletic team names of terms referring to them.

Words (at least in English) do not always have accurate history behind them. French fries did not from France, and Danes have to travel to the U.S. to discover Danish pastry.

By the way, I still don't have an answer to my music question.


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## KScott

Do you know who starred in the movie? That would be a tremendous help.

One of the problems is that Native American music has been explored to some degree in motion pictures, but very few composers exercised musiciological instinct in their scores. That said, Max Steiner's western scores are a mixed bag, comprised of old cowboy tunes and what is perceived to be Native American war chants and dances, rain dances and the like. For those who would say that he fell into the trap of bringing a lot of cliches into the scores have missed the point, for Steiner was looking at the west not the way Aaron Copland or Elie Siegmeister looked at it, but more from a European point of view, and a very unprejudiced one at that.

Some of the best scores for westerns featuring, or approximating Native American music, include Alex North's _Cheyenne Autumn_, Leonard Rosenman's _A Man Called Horse_, Laurence Rosenthal's _Return of A Man Called Horse_ and some of the scores by the near-forgotten Hans J. Salter are prime examples. One could also site the scores of Elmer Bernstein and Ennio Morricone, but their scores take on Mexican and Latin idioms more than Native American.

I'm sure there are several documentaries out there that utilize real indigenous music from various tribes, as well as some indie movies. Lots to research here.


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## Elgarian

KScott said:


> Do you know who starred in the movie? That would be a tremendous help.


It's not a particular movie; what msegers is referring to is a characteristic short burst of music that's instantly recognisable and makes you think 'indians', whenever 'indians' appear in one of those westerns. It probably varies a bit from movie to movie, but the general characteristics don't change much. Unfortunately I can't think of any way of describing it.

I wonder if we can find a bit of a western on youtube that would illustrate it?


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## msegers

Thank you, *Elgarian*, here in the US (and sharing a home with someone who is quite a fan of old westerns - even has a cable TV channel devoted to them) when I hear over and over a sort of generic "Indian" theme, I know that Native Americans are going to appear.

By the way, *KScott* I agree. There is some wonderful music in these films. Often, there are musical signatures for each character or perhaps certain places. There is an inevitable "drunk" theme for the town drunk, and so forth. The saloon always has "Buffalo Gals," and the Indians have their theme. But, sometimes, as in the wonderful theme for the main character in _Dances with Wolves_, the music makes the move worth sitting through.

The problem with looking for information is that "Western" and "music" leads to "country & western music," or something along the lines of the "Western musical tradition." "Indian" takes me to "Bollywood."

Here is a tantalizing reference to an article -
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/music/music22/listening/gorbman_reading_notes.html

Here is a page from _Native American News_ that refers to "Indian Territory" (you just couldn't say "Native American Territory") and refers to Native Americans as "Indians":
http://www.nanews.org/archive/2004/nanews12.047


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## Guest

I think the appearance of Cherokee, Comanche etc in "westerns" was usually characterised by music with an extremely heavy four-square beat - presumably it's supposed to sound like shamanic drumming (although of course shamanic drumming is actually very varied in rhythm and tone).

One of the first representations of Native Americans in music was in Stephen Storace's opera THE CHEROKEE (1794). There is a "March Of Ye Cherokee" which is disappointingly like a normal English military march, but there's also a "War Whoop" which is a bit more exciting. Storace was a very liberal-minded man and the story is extremely fair to the Cherokee of its title - the English characters are less sympathetically portrayed.


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## Conservationist

KScott said:


> One of the problems is that Native American music has been explored to some degree in motion pictures, but very few composers exercised musiciological instinct in their scores.


A moment of science:

http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_Si/nmnh/origin.htm

They're not indigenous, hence not native. They are immigrants like everyone else.

Since their roots are in Siberian, including linguistic roots, that is where to look for the origins of their music.


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## Emperoroftroy

*Native American Music in Film*

I am taking a course on ethnic musicology and I am currently writing a research paper on the history of Native American Music in film, but there are so few articles on it and I am starting to worry. I can't even find the first movie to feature Native American Music. Do you have know of any resources that I should look at for information or do you yourself have any information you recommend I use in my paper?


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## Prodromides

Emperoroftroy said:


> I am taking a course on ethnic musicology and I am currently writing a research paper on the history of Native American Music in film, but there are so few articles on it and I am starting to worry. I can't even find the first movie to feature Native American Music. Do you have know of any resources that I should look at for information or do you yourself have any information you recommend I use in my paper?


Greetings, Emperoroftroy.

Welcome to TC.

Not a musicologist am I, so the only way I can assist you is to spotlight the film A MAN CALLED HORSE (1970) and its soundtrack by Leonard Rosenman. To my knowledge, A MAN CALLED HORSE was the first Hollywood production to attempt authentic cultural representation.

Here are scans of the 1970 vinyl LP soundtrack on Columbia Records, the reverse side of which has liner notes which are quite good:



















I don't expect most folks own turntables; the good news is that Film Score Monthly has not only re-issued but also expanded upon the contents of this LP program onto a CD album in 2010.



















You can read more about it here at FSM's site (which also contains audio samples of the tracks):

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm/CDID/466/Man-Called-Horse-A/

The aspect which makes this special is that actual recordings of Sioux chants were utilized in the sound mix on Rosenman's film score, making A MAN CALLED HORSE the first (and perhaps the only) such authentic soundtrack.

You might also be interested in a 1981 film called WINDWALKER which was the first film shot in a Native American dialect (its soundtrack, though not on CD & only on LP, is thoroughly orchestral with no participation from any "Indian" reservation).


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## Emperoroftroy

*native music in film*

I have been able to track this movie down. The score is amazing. I am highly considering purchasing the soundtrack. I do need more than one film to reference though. I need 6 or more. Thus far I have A Man Called Horse, Return of a Man Called Horse, Dances with Wolves, Geronimo and Cheyenne Autumn. I need at least one more (preferably more). If you or anyone else can add to the list let me know.

I am definitely in love with the score of A Man Called Horse.


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## BlazeGlory

msegers said:


> I recently joined a friend who loves Westerns in watching an old black and white film. When the Native Americans / Indians came on, I realized that there was an inevitable bit of music that is almost always associated with their presence in Western films.
> 
> I have no idea what the the name of it is or who the composer is. I assume that anyone who has ever seen a Western has heard it.
> 
> Any idea?



View attachment Indian tune.mp3

I know it's been years since this thread was started but I'm a relatively new member and today was the first time I viewed this. This is a very simple file of what I think may be the music in question. I have no idea of what the title is.


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## Prodromides

Glad you like A MAN CALLED HORSE.

The other titles you mention all have a soundtrack album except GERONIMO (1961) by Hugo Friedhofer (which I never saw or heard). CHEYENNE AUTUMN was directed by John Ford, who did not approve of orchestral music backing-up characters who are in a desert setting. Alex North's score, in this instance, happens to be highly polyphonic; THE RETURN OF A MAN CALLED HORSE has a simpler thematic, though melodic, approach by Laurence Rosenthal.

Additional recommendations follow, but none of them will have the cultural authenticity regarding what I mentioned in my previous post.


BROKEN ARROW (1950) was one of the earliest Hollywood movies to depict Native Americans sympathetically. Composer Hugo Friedhofer did not use any genuine cultural material as far as I recall.










RIO CONCHOS (1964) is an early Western score by Jerry Goldsmith, who uses familiar scales/intervals & instrumentations to depict Indians.










CHATO'S LAND (1972) by Jerry Fielding does not sound like a typical Western. The music here is focused on creating an aural landscape to reflect an austere terrain. Some minor uses of Indian scales/& instruments.










the 1984 TV-movie THE MYSTIC WARRIOR by Gerald Fried is the one of this bunch which is closest to being the most authentic by virtue of an actual Native American language sung by the Roger Wagner Master Chorale. Mr. Fried does not any real songs, however, for dramatic license.










Jerry Goldsmith (again) provides a Native American Indian theme in his score for POLTERGEIST II : THE OTHER SIDE (1986), perhaps a welcomed respite from Westerns. Unsure, though, whether a horror movie is appropriate or not in context of references for your project.











Good luck in your endeavors.


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## willo

I have had the same question as msegers for many years, and I'm glad to see someone else does too. Most of the responses here are unlikely to be helpful, since they refer to the original scores of movies from 1960 onward, whereas the recognizable "Indian music" surely goes back well into the 1950s or earlier. The Indian Tune posted by BlazeGlory is quite similar to the tune I have in mind, though not exactly --- but of course there might have been many variants of this tune in many different movies. 

I'll be very glad if someone can identify the source of that "Indian tune".


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## MonicaStillwater

http://www.losdoggies.com/archives/3122 This has no info, but I think it might be the tune you are looking for? Often with some drums thrown in for good measure?

I blame Disney - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_at9dOElQk#t=49


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## moody

d.kowlesar said:


> Why do people still refer to them as Indians? I am Indian. Not anywhere near America, not even my roots. The people you are referring to are Native American. Period. NOT Native American/Indian.


Are we to play cowboys and native Americans. A couple of years ago a get-together of Indian chiefs was featured on TV and they referred to themselves as Indians throughout.


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## Kieran

_******_, more like! Watching Calamity Jane yesterday showed me the great old Hollywood stereotype of them as savage "varmint..."


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## MonicaStillwater

Maybe this is to blame?


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## Couac Addict

Apparently...it's 80s electro. Is that a traditional war dance at 2mins?


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## cRookie

Good day, and sorry to necro this thread, but I've been also searching for Amerindian music similar to the tracks I've heard in westerns and hoping the bit I'll post below also meets the terms OP is describing.

This is a rendition/cover of El condor pasa by a national artist from my country. The part that describes the entry scene of "indians" in western movies to me is represented by 0:15-0:25 seconds into this song:

http://www.fileshare.ro/1772124764.48

If I was correct and anyone else knows similar songs to that small part, please reply.

Thank you!


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## PetrB

In the earlier wave of Cowboy / Indian films, say the mid to late 1950's (they're called _Oaters,_ Lol,) a segment from Resphigi's _Pini di Roma (The pines of Rome_ was used -- that cliche when 'of a sudden,' a shot would cut to them ****** on a hilltop or high ground overlooking the cavalry / wagon train, etc.

*The very brief bit from this score so often used in the earlier westerns is from the second segment of Pini di Roma; I pini del Gianicolo (Pines of the Janiculum)*, or an 'original' piece very directly cribbed from it.
Start @ 03'15.''





Since this bit of the segment is modal, and for whatever reason Hollywood music directors choose this bit or that of classical music, this is what got used in dozens of films -- or an 'original' near rip-off imitation of it was in its place.

Of course, as associated with "******" as it may be, this Italian tone poem from the first half of the 20th century has nothing whatsoever to do with genuine Amerind ethnic music -- that was the "Hollywood way"


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## PetrB

d.kowlesar said:


> Why do people still refer to them as Indians? I am Indian. Not anywhere near America, not even my roots. The people you are referring to are Native American. Period. NOT Native American/Indian.


To English speakers, you are an Indian, and some would say East Indian: The American Indian is also referred to as "an Indian"... as in:

"In·di·an
ˈindēən/
adjective
adjective: Indian

1.
of or relating to the indigenous peoples of America.
2.
of or relating to India or to the subcontinent comprising India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh.

noun
noun: Indian; plural noun: Indians

1.
an American Indian.
2.
a native or inhabitant of India, or a person of Indian descent."

The usage varies, then.

Someone went all pedantic that the American Indian peoples are émigré from Northeastern Siberia, i.e. Asiatic in descent and 'not native.' LOL.

If you are going back in geological time, may as well call _émigré_ any peoples living and established in but one smaller Area of Africa a very long time ago -- which means in current time _there is hardly anywhere a "native" anyone_; hey, that's the truth 

That can lead to all sorts of fun -- i.e. anyone who calls themselves English are johnny come lately émigré; as everyone knows, the Picts were "The only Native People" of that isle


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## hpowders

moody said:


> *Are we to play cowboys and native Americans.* A couple of years ago a get-together of Indian chiefs was featured on TV and they referred to themselves as Indians throughout.


That's what it's come down to in our PC world.


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## Ingélou

PetrB said:


> To English speakers, you are an Indian, and some would say East Indian: The American Indian is also referred to as "an Indian"... as in:
> 
> "In·di·an
> ˈindēən/
> adjective
> adjective: Indian
> 
> 1.
> of or relating to the indigenous peoples of America.
> 2.
> of or relating to India or to the subcontinent comprising India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh.
> 
> noun
> noun: Indian; plural noun: Indians
> 
> 1.
> an American Indian.
> 2.
> a native or inhabitant of India, or a person of Indian descent."
> 
> The usage varies, then.
> 
> Someone went all pedantic that the American Indian peoples are émigré from Northeastern Siberia, i.e. Asiatic in descent and 'not native.' LOL.
> 
> If you are going back in geological time, may as well call _émigré_ any peoples living and established in but one smaller Area of Africa a very long time ago -- which means in current time _there is hardly anywhere a "native" anyone_; hey, that's the truth
> 
> That can lead to all sorts of fun -- i.e. anyone who calls themselves English are johnny come lately émigré; as everyone knows, the Picts were "The only Native People" of that isle


And don't forget the West Indians from the West Indies in the Caribbean - all down to Columbus's mistake. That usage is surely too entrenched to be changed, though one never knows.

I am just listening to the 'watching from the pines' music - spot on! Well done, PetrB.
There is also music played for Indians round the camp-fire, a bit similar to the Judy Garland song, but not the same. About as good as 'the Japanese music' in 'The Mikado'!


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## thelastminstrel

PetrB said:


> In the earlier wave of Cowboy / Indian films, say the mid to late 1950's (they're called _Oaters,_ Lol,) a segment from Resphigi's _Pini di Roma (The pines of Rome_ was used -- that cliche when 'of a sudden,' a shot would cut to them ****** on a hilltop or high ground overlooking the cavalry / wagon train, etc.
> 
> *The very brief bit from this score so often used in the earlier westerns is from the second segment of Pini di Roma; I pini del Gianicolo (Pines of the Janiculum)*, or an 'original' piece very directly cribbed from it.
> Start @ 03'15.''
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since this bit of the segment is modal, and for whatever reason Hollywood music directors choose this bit or that of classical music, this is what got used in dozens of films -- or an 'original' near rip-off imitation of it was in its place.
> 
> Of course, as associated with "******" as it may be, this Italian tone poem from the first half of the 20th century has nothing whatsoever to do with genuine Amerind ethnic music -- that was the "Hollywood way"


Very interesting, at least it's somewhere to start.
The date of composition throws me though. 
I need to find out WHEN the standard "Indian que was first used. I presumed it was present in pre- hollywood stage productions, of which there were many, of "Indian" themed melodramas.
Nothing whatever to prove that, it's just my thinking.
I'm amazed that nobody has pursued this. Surely there's a paper in it, credit for someone.


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## PetrB

moody said:


> Are we to play cowboys and native Americans. A couple of years ago a get-together of Indian chiefs was featured on TV and they referred to themselves as Indians throughout.





hpowders said:


> That's what it's come down to in our PC world.


.._worse_, it should be _*Cowpersons and Amerinds,*_ Lol.


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## Sc00by

Conservationist said:


> A moment of science:
> 
> http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_Si/nmnh/origin.htm
> 
> They're not indigenous, hence not native. They are immigrants like everyone else.
> 
> Since their roots are in Siberian, including linguistic roots, that is where to look for the origins of their music.


I don't believe there were any indigenous peoples in North America before, what we refer to as, Indians. And since they have been here for more than 15,000 years, I think that probably gives them every right to be called indigenous to this country. How they came about being called "Indian" is speculative and an ongoing research topic.


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## Sc00by

I totally get the question being an avid classic movie watcher myself. Did you ever get an answer on this?


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## LezLee

And then there's this:


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## wahidovic

KScott said:


> Do you know who starred in the movie? That would be a tremendous help.
> 
> One of the problems is that Native American music has been explored to some degree in motion pictures, but very few composers exercised musiciological instinct in their scores. That said, Max Steiner's western scores are a mixed bag, comprised of old cowboy tunes and what is perceived to be Native American war chants and dances, rain dances and the like. For those who would say that he fell into the trap of bringing a lot of cliches into the scores have missed the point, for Steiner was looking at the west not the way Aaron Copland or Elie Siegmeister looked at it, but more from a European point of view, and a very unprejudiced one at that.
> 
> Some of the best scores for westerns featuring, or approximating Native American music, include Alex North's _Cheyenne Autumn_, Leonard Rosenman's _A Man Called Horse_, Laurence Rosenthal's _Return of A Man Called Horse_ and some of the scores by the near-forgotten Hans J. Salter are prime examples. One could also site the scores of Elmer Bernstein and Ennio Morricone, but their scores take on Tutuapp 9apps Showbox Mexican and Latin idioms more than Native American.
> 
> I'm sure there are several documentaries out there that utilize real indigenous music from various tribes, as well as some indie movies. Lots to research here.


yes yhat's sur , there are several documentaries out there that utilize real indigenous music from various tribes but not sim indian's movies


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## Phil loves classical

Sc00by said:


> I don't believe there were any indigenous peoples in North America before, what we refer to as, Indians. And since they have been here for more than 15,000 years, I think that probably gives them every right to be called indigenous to this country. How they came about being called "Indian" is speculative and an ongoing research topic.


I was taught in school they were called "Indians" because Columbus thought he had went around the world to India. They were found to be linked to the Middle Eastern people before crossing the Bering Strait.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...e-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/


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## wahidovic

Prodromides said:


> Greetings, Emperoroftroy.
> 
> Welcome to TC.
> 
> Not a musicologist am I, so the only way I can assist you is to spotlight the film A MAN CALLED HORSE (1970) and its soundtrack by Leonard Rosenman. To my knowledge, A MAN CALLED HORSE was the first Hollywood production to attempt authentic cultural representation.
> 
> Here are scans of the 1970 vinyl LP soundtrack on Columbia Records, the reverse side of which has liner notes which are quite good:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't expect most folks own turntables; the good news is that Film Score Monthly has not only re-issued but also expanded upon the contents of this LP program onto a CD album in 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read more about it here at FSM's site (which also contains audio samples of the tracks):
> 
> http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm/CDID/466/Man-Called-Horse-A/
> 
> The aspect which makes this special is that actual recordings of Sioux chants were utilized in the sound mix on Rosenman's film score, making A MAN CALLED HORSE the first (and perhaps the only) such authentic soundtrack.
> 
> You might also be interested in a 1981 film called WINDWALKER which was the first film shot in a Native American dialect (its soundtrack, though not on CD & only on LP, is thoroughly orchestral with no participation from any "Indian" reservation).


very helpful informations , thank's for sharing


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## geralmar

I don't want to over generalize; but I believe "Native Americans" don't mind being called "Indians". The major Indian advocacy organization, founded in 1968, is called A.I.M. (American Indian Movement). The website offers (limited) assistance to researchers.

https://aimovement.org


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## Phil loves classical

^^ According to Wikipedia:

As of 1995, according to the US Census Bureau, 50% of people who identified as Indigenous preferred the term American Indian, 37% preferred Native American, and the remainder preferred other terms or had no preference.

I think there is more controversy with the word Eskimo in other than Alaska:

https://www.uaf.edu/anlc/resources/inuit_or_eskimo.php


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## KenOC

Dvorak claimed to have been influenced by Native American music in his 9th Symphony, though I could never hear it. "I have not actually used any of the [Native American] melodies. I have simply written original themes embodying the peculiarities of the Indian music, and, using these themes as subjects, have developed them with all the resources of modern rhythms, counterpoint, and orchestral colour."


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## Rogerx

LezLee said:


> And then there's this:


Alas video is mot working.


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