# "Evolution" of classical music



## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Hi classical experts! I would just need your opinions on this subject: I've made very rapidly the video that you find below, it's about the "evolution" of classical music, it was appreciated but of course it received some criticism for being incomplete, etc (since it's a "short" YT doesn't let it be longer that 60s).






Now I'd like to make a longer version of it (any length), maybe with your help, including many more composers and their contributions, and maybe starting earlier. The work must be aimed at being "educational", so not too technical, considering that 99% of the people online are far from being classical expert, while I hope that some of them would get to know this world closer...

So if you had to make such a chronological list of composers who marked the evolution of classical music with an unreplaceable contribution, how would that be? (And which is that "contribution" in your opinion, maybe.)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Where to begin?

Start with Bach. The Well-tempered Klavier was ground-breaking and really opened the flood gates.
Haydn - The Father of the Symphony - needs to be there.
Liszt - his contribution was in the piano literature, and the piece you used was even orchestrated by him.
Some composer who need to be there; Schubert, Brahms, Schoenberg.
The evolution of classical music cannot be fully grasped without the concomitant development of the orchestra. Wagner did a lot, but so did Berlioz and a composer whose contribution is too often overlooked: Raff.
The impressionists like Debussy or Ravel need to be included.
I would like to think Mahler belongs there, too.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Honestly, you really have to start with Gregorian Chant, and work your way to Medieval and Renaissance before you land on Bach.

For instance, way back in the Dark Ages I took a class titled Religion in America. Great class, but it really had to start with Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Anglicism before it could even set foot on Plymouth Rock.

Without context, Baroque makes no sense. It didn't just fall out of the sky and that was the start of Classical Music.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

YouTube may not be the platform for a comprehensive history of classical music. Just sayin'.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Here is a list of the "core" classical composers. You must include all of them:

Hayne van Ghizeghem	
Thomas Créquillon 
Louis-Nicolas Clérambault
Armand-Louis Couperin 
Thomas Linley (the elder)
Heinrich von Herzogenberg
Josef Matthias Hauer
Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji
Ivan Wyschnegradsky
Sergei Vladimirovich Protopopov
William Schuman


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Highwayman said:


> Here is a list of the "core" classical composers. You must include all of them:
> 
> Hayne van Ghizeghem
> Thomas Créquillon
> ...


This is all very well as far as it goes, but glaringly missing are the essential ...

Notker Balbulus
Odo of Cluny
Franz Fidelio Finke


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Roger Knox said:


> This is all very well as far as it goes, but glaringly missing are the essential ...
> 
> Notker Balbulus
> Odo of Cluny
> Franz Fidelio Finke


I should have mentioned that my snarky reply came on the weekend after having had to walk through one of Canada's "trucker protests" to visit an ailing relative. Long, earsplitting overlapping trombone-like diesel-rig horns pitched a tone or semitone apart, punctuated with brassy honks and the noise of traffic mayhem.

My bad, but I was in no mood to consider the possibility of "evolution" in music or anything else. ClassicalPower, my apologies.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Roger Knox said:


> I should have mentioned that my snarky reply came on the weekend after having had to walk through one of *Canada's "trucker protests" *to visit an ailing relative. *Long, earsplitting overlapping trombone-like diesel-rig horns pitched a tone or semitone apart, punctuated with brassy honks and the noise of traffic mayhem.*
> 
> My bad, but I was in no mood to consider the possibility of "evolution" in music or anything else. ClassicalPower, my apologies.


The band *Chicago* embraced this musique-concrete notion on their third album (*Chicago III*) with a suite they named *Elegy*. The fourth movement of the six movement suite was titled *"Progress?"*

This was way back in 1971, when they were a bit more inclined to engage in social commentary, instead of being on the Top Ten Hit-chasing treadmill they climbed on later.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

how about something like 

Bach's sinfonia from cantata bwv 29, Haydn's cello concerto no 1, Mozart's Lacrimosa, Beethoven's ode to joy, Chopin's 1st Ballade, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde Prelude (yeah I like what you did there lol), the fianale of Mahler's 8th symphony, the fugue of Shostakovich's from the fist movement of his 4th symphony. the coda of Yoshimatsu's 6th symphony


I'm quite sure that a lot can be added to this list.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Being a classical music listener, who only started becoming a fan with The Rite of Spring, and more recent classical music (especially from the mid 20th century up through the present), my feelings are, you definitely need a Part II.

Your video ends just where it gets interesting to me.

The 2nd Viennese School, avant-garde, and experimental music need to be included.

Carter, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Britton, Barber, Bartok, Davies, Wuorinen, and many more composers have their rightful place in the history of classical music.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Wagner did a lot, but so did Berlioz and a composer whose contribution is too often overlooked:


I disagree. Wagner is "problematic" and many universities have "cancelled" him from their Music 101 courses. Berlioz is substituted instead as the Romantic innovator.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> Where to begin?
> 
> Start with Bach. The Well-tempered Klavier was ground-breaking and really opened the flood gates.
> Haydn - The Father of the Symphony - needs to be there.
> ...


Thanks! I agree with you, except for Brahms which was not very "innovative" from what I've read on him, but I don't know him well as a composer yet...


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Highwayman said:


> Here is a list of the "core" classical composers. You must include all of them:
> 
> Hayne van Ghizeghem
> Thomas Créquillon
> ...


Thank you! That's a very detailed list but since I don't know their music it would be quite hard to include them in the playlist... since I don't want to do add music without knowing what I'm doing, etc. I'll see what I can do, maybe you have some suggestion about some specific pieces of music (?)


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Tarneem said:


> how about something like
> 
> Bach's sinfonia from cantata bwv 29, Haydn's cello concerto no 1, Mozart's Lacrimosa, Beethoven's ode to joy, Chopin's 1st Ballade, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde Prelude (yeah I like what you did there lol), the fianale of Mahler's 8th symphony, the fugue of Shostakovich's from the fist movement of his 4th symphony. the coda of Yoshimatsu's 6th symphony
> 
> I'm quite sure that a lot can be added to this list.


Thanks a lot!


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Simon Moon said:


> Being a classical music listener, who only started becoming a fan with The Rite of Spring, and more recent classical music (especially from the mid 20th century up through the present), my feelings are, you definitely need a Part II.
> 
> Your video ends just where it gets interesting to me.
> 
> ...


Great! Would you suggest me one piece you consider most suitable for each of those composers? One that you consider to be "characteristic", not necessarily the most beautiful...


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

ClassicalPower said:


> Thank you! That's a very detailed list but since I don't know their music it would be quite hard to include them in the playlist... since I don't want to do add music without knowing what I'm doing, etc. I'll see what I can do, maybe you have some suggestion about some specific pieces of music (?)


I should have made the same clarification as Roger did at #7, as my reply was also made in-jest and possibly "snarky" in manner. Differing from Roger`s, mine was merely triggered by a few glasses (or bottles) of cheap red wine.

So, to be clear, the composers I listed were not core or essential composers, even so, some of them are quite good especially Créquillon, von Herzogenberg and W. Schuman.

On a serious note, I don`t get what you are trying to do with this enquiry. If you want to be accurate and make an in-depth analysis, a YT short is not the place to do so. If you just want some more clicks, just lure them with some more Mozart or Beethoven. Schoenberg is definitely one of the most important composers of the CM history but he won`t help you to find new subscribers...


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Highwayman said:


> I should have made the same clarification as Roger did at #7, as my reply was also made in-jest and possibly "snarky" in manner. Differing from Roger`s, mine was merely triggered by a few glasses (or bottles) of cheap red wine.
> 
> So, to be clear, the composers I listed were not core or essential composers, even so, some of them are quite good especially Créquillon, von Herzogenberg and W. Schuman.
> 
> On a serious note, I don`t get what you are trying to do with this enquiry. If you want to be accurate and make an in-depth analysis, a YT short is not the place to do so. If you just want some more clicks, just lure them with some more Mozart or Beethoven. Schoenberg is definitely one of the most important composers of the CM history but he won`t help you to find new subscribers...


I'll second this (well, actually, THIRD this, as it was brought up before).

You COULD go the Youtube route, but you'd really have to make it a series. For instance, I follow a couple of Youtubers that have been doing reaction videos of Beatles (and others') albums chronologically. One album (or even one side of an album) at a time.

The subject you want to present is so vastly large that it needs a longer form.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

I have a few suggestions in the realm of chromatic & microtonal music:

*Schoenberg *- Gurre-Lieder - peak of chromatic Romantic music
=>alternatively, search for something complicated (that you will like) by *Max Reger* :tiphat:

*Scelsi *- _Uaxuctum _- as an alternative to Wyschnegratzsky, who in my view wasn't a bad suggestion  
*Williams *- _Hedwig's Theme_ (every child of a certain generation (or two) knows that 12-tone tune on an electronic celesta)

Edit: maybe some electronic music by *Stockhausen*? _Licht_, for example.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Highwayman said:


> I should have made the same clarification as Roger did at #7, as my reply was also made in-jest and possibly "snarky" in manner. Differing from Roger`s, mine was merely triggered by a few glasses (or bottles) of cheap red wine.
> 
> So, to be clear, the composers I listed were not core or essential composers, even so, some of them are quite good especially Créquillon, von Herzogenberg and W. Schuman.
> 
> On a serious note, I don`t get what you are trying to do with this enquiry. If you want to be accurate and make an in-depth analysis, a YT short is not the place to do so. If you just want some more clicks, just lure them with some more Mozart or Beethoven. Schoenberg is definitely one of the most important composers of the CM history but he won`t help you to find new subscribers...


Well I'm trying to do a "balanced" thing, I definitely don't want to make a cheap/banal thing, as I've already made it on YT shorts as you justly point out, but I also don't want to make something that only the experts understand, and most importantly, that goes too further relatively to my knowledge of the subject: I don't want to talk about things I don't know well yet, ofc you could help me in the process of making the video but I doubt you'd have time and I wouldn't ask that much...
Anyway, Schoenberg is a famous composer and I would definitely add it... Maybe I can do from Bach to Schoenberg or something, that could be an idea.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> I'll second this (well, actually, THIRD this, as it was brought up before).
> 
> You COULD go the Youtube route, but you'd really have to make it a series. For instance, I follow a couple of Youtubers that have been doing reaction videos of Beatles (and others') albums chronologically. One album (or even one side of an album) at a time.
> 
> The subject you want to present is so vastly large that it needs a longer form.


Rather than a "serie" I think that I should do different versions of this video in the future, and each version I add new composers meanwhile I collect various suggestions and comments to make the next one, so that each video will be more detailed and accurate than the previous... how does this sound to you? But yes, generally on my channel I made "series", as the one about "famous classicals", since the number of pieces is really vast.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> I have a few suggestions in the realm of chromatic & microtonal music:
> 
> *Schoenberg *- Gurre-Lieder - peak of chromatic Romantic music
> =>alternatively, search for something complicated (that you will like) by *Max Reger* :tiphat:
> ...


Btw I'm listening right now to "Uaxuctum", and I'm quite impressed...


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

So I've made this approximate list for now, this time I've tried not to surpass the number of 20 pieces but probably I'll do an even longer version in the future, meanwhile I collect infos and suggestions from the viewers, so would you approve it? Doesn't need to be the perfect list, but just good enough or in a good direction at least.

1. Monteverdi - L'Orfeo 1607 
2. Lully - Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme - Marche pour la cérémonie des Turcs 1670 
3. Corelli - Sonata XII in re minore, "Follia" 1700
(4. Vivaldi - Spring from The Four Seasons 1720) Too close to Bach so probably I'll find another one
5. Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 in G major, BWV 1048 Allegro 1721 
6. Haydn – Symphony No. 1 1759
7. Mozart – Marriage of Figaro 1786
8. Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 “Eroica” 1804 
9. Schubert - Schubert: Unfinished Symphony No.8 1822 - unfinished
10. Liszt – Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 1847
11. Wagner – Tristan und Isolde 1859
12. Strauss – Also sprach Zarathustra 1896
13. Debussy - Pelléas et Mélisande 1902 
14. Ravel - Une barque sur l'océan 1905
15. Schönberg - String Quartet No. 2 - IV. "Entrückung", sehr langsam ("Rapture", very slow), No key 1908 
16. Scriabin – Prometheus: The Poem of Fire 1910 
17. Stravinskij - The Rite of Spring 1913
18. Satie - Furniture music 1917 
19. Webern Anton Webern - Symphony Op. 21 1928
20. 4′33″ 1952 John Cage


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

ClassicalPower said:


> So I've made this approximate list for now, this time I've tried not to surpass the number of 20 pieces but probably I'll do an even longer version in the future, meanwhile I collect infos and suggestions from the viewers, so would you approve it? Doesn't need to be the perfect list, but just good enough or in a good direction at least.
> 
> 1. Monteverdi - L'Orfeo 1607
> 2. Lully - Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme - Marche pour la cérémonie des Turcs 1670
> ...


The composer list would be more concise and improved by leaving out: Lully, Corelli, Vivaldi, and Strauss. Instead of Strauss, Mahler would be a better choice.

Also the choice of works is not always the best most representative of the remaining composers. E.G. Satie's Furniture Music was never intended to be serious work, but a conceptual statement by him. His early piano music, or Parade, Socrate would be better.

I'd have chosen Liszt's B Minor Sonata instead of the Hungarian Rhapsody.

Bach is better represented by the B Minor Mass, St. Matthew Passion, or one of his large keyboard works.

Haydn's symphony no. 1 does not represent him very well - one of his later symphonies or piano trios, or string quartets would have been much better.

Ravel has better works than the one you listed. The piano trio or Piano Concerto in G; Le Tombeau de Couperin.

Stravinsky.

Also there's some great music prior to Monteverdi.

It is also questionable to end with Cage's 4'33". Are you implying that music progressed through all these styles to silence? Somewhat cynical idea. While I am a fan of Cage, there are better choices to end your list. Maybe a different American composer (whom were under represented).

Elliott Carter string quartet?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

ClassicalPower said:


> So if you had to make such a chronological list of composers who marked the evolution of classical music with an unreplaceable contribution, how would that be? (And which is that "contribution" in your opinion, maybe.)


I'm very skeptical of the majority of choices on your list if the above is still what you're going for. Also, if you think you can justice to a five hours opera by including a bit of it in a video, I think you should think a bit longer. In terms of composers selected, I don't agree with the choice of Corelli, Strauss, Scriabin and Satie given the purpose. For many others you pick a work that I would not agree with at all with other works far better suiting your theme. Examples: Schubert - Winterreise (he was far more influential with his songs and song cycles), Debussy - La Mer or Prelude d'apres-midi d'un faune, Ravel - Piano concerto.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

SanAntone said:


> The composer list would be more concise and improved by leaving out: Lully, Corelli, Vivaldi, and Strauss. Instead of Strauss, Mahler would be a better choice.


I don't know Mahler so well yet, and thus I wouldn't really know which piece should I use and I prefer to not to in this case. But this is not a "definitive" version of this work; Mahler will be included sooner or later.



SanAntone said:


> Also the choice of works is not always the best most representative of the remaining composers. E.G. Satie's Furniture Music was never intended to be serious work, but a conceptual statement by him.


That's exactly why I find it so interesting...



SanAntone said:


> I'd have chosen Liszt's B Minor Sonata instead of the Hungarian Rhapsody.
> 
> Bach is better represented by the B Minor Mass, St. Matthew Passion, or one of his large keyboard works.
> 
> ...


If you give me these kind of suggestion pls tell my also exactly why you think those pieces would fit better! Otherwise I don't really know how to make use of your suggestions...



SanAntone said:


> Stravinsky.


 ...what's about him? 



SanAntone said:


> Also there's some great music prior to Monteverdi.


Of course there is but there always music "prior to"... but the first time I started with Mozart and know Monteverdi seems like a reasonable expansion of the list backward.



SanAntone said:


> It is also questionable to end with Cage's 4'33". Are you implying that music progressed through all these styles to silence? Somewhat cynical idea.


Yeah exactly that but it's supposed to be a funny thing... I'm not being to serious. I guess you don't know how youtube works but the audiece like this kind of funny/controversial things, and even if keeping people engaged may cost some accuracy and precision of information, I believe it is useful in the larger picture since my aim is to let discover classical music by more people as possible. When each of them will become passionate about it, possibly, then he will do his own research and discover the "truth" for himself, which is how we learn thing most effectively.

I hope I managed to explain myself and thanks for your contribution.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> I'm very skeptical of the majority of choices on your list if the above is still what you're going for. Also, if you think you can justice to a five hours opera by including a bit of it in a video, I think you should think a bit longer. In terms of composers selected, I don't agree with the choice of Corelli, Strauss, Scriabin and Satie given the purpose. For many others you pick a work that I would not agree with at all with other works far better suiting your theme. Examples: Schubert - Winterreise (he was far more influential with his songs and song cycles), Debussy - La Mer or Prelude d'apres-midi d'un faune, Ravel - Piano concerto.


Thanks for answering, I think that probably you are right but if you are willing to help me chose one of the piece you have in mind an tell me exactly _why_ you think that's better than the other, that would be helpful!
If I thought about "making justice" to classical music I would probably not even have a YouTube channel at all, since the majority of the people out there are stuck to "Ta ta ta taaaa" of Beethoven's Fifth... but I'm applying to improve the situation, at small steps! Does this make sense to you?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

ClassicalPower said:


> I don't know Mahler so well yet, and thus I wouldn't really know which piece should I use and I prefer to not to in this case. But this is not a "definitive" version of this work; Mahler will be included sooner or later.


4th movement of Symphony No. 5. It is well known, and shows off what Mahler does best, i.e. create a mood and evoke a period.



> That's exactly why I find it so interesting...


But it doesn't capture what Satie is about, which is more than that kind of satirical humorous kind of work.



> If you give me these kind of suggestion pls tell my also exactly why you think those pieces would fit better! Otherwise I don't really know how to make use of your suggestions...


They are just better works, that show off the composer in a better light, and highlight what they did that was somewhat new.



> ...what's about him?


The spelling of his name.



> Of course there is but there always music "prior to"... but the first time I started with Mozart and know Monteverdi seems like a reasonable expansion of the list backward.


If the theme is the evolution of musical style, then the plan should go from monodic chant, then simple polyphony (modal), to more complex, finally to homophony, tonal to atonality.



> Yeah exactly that but it's supposed to be a funny thing... I'm not being to serious. I guess you don't know how youtube works but the audiece like this kind of funny/controversial things, and even if keeping people engaged may cost some accuracy and precision of information, I believe it is useful in the larger picture since my aim is to let discover classical music by more people as possible. When each of them will become passionate about it, possibly, then he will do his own research and discover the "truth" for himself, which is how we learn thing most effectively.


I had forgotten this was for a YouTube video. I am not a fan of those kinds of things, so if you wish you can ignore my suggestions and I will no longer contribute to your thread.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Here is an optional list, with twenty suggestions of key works related to classical music. This list starts in the Middle Ages and ends in our millennium:

1. Hildegard - Ordo Virtutum (c. 1151)
2. Machaut - Messe de Nostre Dame (c. 1365)
3. Palestrina - Missa Papae Marcelli (c. 1562)
4. Monteverdi - L'Orfeo (1607)
5. Lully - Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme (1670)
6. Vivaldi - Il cimento dell'armonia e dell'inventione (1725)
7. Bach - The Well-Tempered Clavier (1742)
8. Haydn - String Quartets Op. 20 (1772)
9. Mozart - The Marriage of Figaro (1786)
10. Beethoven - Symphony no. 5 (1808)
11. Schubert - Die Winterreise (1827)
12. Liszt - Transcendental Études (1851)
13. Wagner - Tristan und Isolde (1859)
14. Tchaikovsky - Swan Lake (1876)
15. Brahms - Clarinet Quintet (1891)
16. Debussy - La Mer (1905)
17. Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring (1913)
18. Shostakovich - Symphony no. 10 (1951)
19. Riley - In C (1964) 
20. Stockhausen - Licht: The Seven Days of the Week (2003)


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

LOL. Attempting to show *Bach* as a step in the evolution of Classical Music by citing one work (one of the *Brandenburg Concertos*) severely limits the understanding of his influence.

Even adding the *WTC* or *Art of Fugue* to expand the understanding of his influence leave him short.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> Here is an optional list, with twenty suggestions of key works related to classical music. This list starts in the Middle Ages and ends in our millennium:
> 
> 1. Hildegard - Ordo Virtutum (c. 1151)
> 2. Machaut - Messe de Nostre Dame (c. 1365)
> ...


That's great!! Thanks man!  I will possibly change something but it's an excellent model to follow.
For example I wouldn't add Brahms and Tchai (even though I love him) cause for what I know they where a bit "conservative" composers rather than innovators weren't they?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

ClassicalPower said:


> That's great!! Thanks man!  I will possibly change something but it's an excellent model to follow.
> For example I wouldn't add Brahms and Tchai (even though I love him) cause for what I know they where a bit "conservative" composers rather than innovators weren't they?


Brahms was conservative in his use of form, but rhythmically for example his music is very daring. Schoenberg famously wrote an article about him called "Brahms the progressive", arguing against the composer's reputation of being conservative. And Tchaikovsky was an outstanding orchestrator and melodist, and it could be argued that he is perhaps the first great classical composer of Russia with a considerable amount of music that merges Western Europe style with a distinct Russian flavor (actually Glinka came first, but...).

Tchaikovsky's _Swan Lake_ is a cornerstone of classical ballet, and Brahms' _Clarinet Quintet_ is one of the most important chamber compositions of the Romantic era, so I thought that they were arguably interesting works to be placed on the list. But it's far from being definitive, and you should of course change whatever you want if you feel that it will be better for your project.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> Brahms was conservative in his use of form, but rhythmically for example his music is very daring. Schoenberg famously wrote an article about him called "Brahms the progressive", arguing against the composer's reputation of being conservative. And Tchaikovsky was an outstanding orchestrator and melodist, and it could be argued that he is perhaps the first great classical composer of Russia with a considerable amount of music that merges Western Europe style with a distinct Russian flavor (actually Glinka came first, but...).
> 
> Tchaikovsky's _Swan Lake_ is a cornerstone of classical ballet, and Brahms' _Clarinet Quintet_ is one of the most important chamber compositions of the Romantic era, so I thought that they were arguably interesting works to be placed on the list. But it's far from being definitive, and you should of course change whatever you want if you feel that it will be better for your project.


I'll consider adding them too then  You have been incredibly helpful to me!! Would you like than I send you a preview via PM maybe when the work is almost ready? (So you can tell me if you judge it to be fine enough, I've tried to follow your list as much as possible...)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

ClassicalPower said:


> I'll consider adding them too then  You have been incredibly helpful to me!! Would you like than I send you a preview via PM maybe when the work is almost ready? (So you can tell me if you judge it to be fine enough, I've tried to follow your list as much as possible...)


I would rather prefer that we maintained this discussion here in this thread. The thing is that I'm rather busy at the moment (I've barely entered TC in the past few days) and wouldn't be able to give you proper support to your project. Besides, there are other members here who are much more knowledgeable about classical music than I am, and that would probably better assist you.

Wikipedia is an excellent source of information about classical music. I suggest you to read about all compositions you decide to select to your project there.


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## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

You could actually make a history video without Bach and you would be more correct than by including him.


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## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

pianozach said:


> LOL. Attempting to show *Bach* as a step in the evolution of Classical Music by citing one work (one of the *Brandenburg Concertos*) severely limits the understanding of his influence.
> 
> Even adding the *WTC* or *Art of Fugue* to expand the understanding of his influence leave him short.


I challenge you with respect to define the contribution of Bach to the evolution of classical music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Dimboukas said:


> I challenge you with respect to define the contribution of Bach to the evolution of classical music.


What . . . _*seriously*_? Um, OK, but what I'm going to answer with is pretty well agreed upon convention about Bach's contributions to the evolution of Classical music.

He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organization, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France.

Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, and Mendelssohn were among his admirers; they began writing in a more contrapuntal style after being exposed to Bach's music. Beethoven described him as "Urvater der Harmonie", the "original father of harmony". Yes, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, and Mendelssohn all claim him as an influence on their compositional styles.

He was a genius at counterpoint.

Many musicians, composers, and music experts consider him the _*"father of Western classical music"*_.

I direct you to an actual scholar in the field, *Christa K. Johnson*, a graduate from Cedarville University, (I believe she was a piano major) who wrote an article titled "*J. S. Bach: The Good Lord of Influence"* back in 2015, in which she quotes *Christoph Wolff*, from his *Essays on his Life and Music, 1991* to close:

_"It was only through this union of the greatest genius with the most indefatigable study that Johann Sebastian Bach was able, whichever way he turned, to extend of his art that his successors have not even been able to maintain this enlarged domain to its full extent; and this alone enabled him to produce such numerous and perfect works, all of which are, and ever will remain, true ideals and imperishable models of art."_

https://digitalcommons.cedarville.e...ntext=music_and_worship_student_presentations

I'm pretty gobsmacked that you think someone needs to prove Bach's influence. It's as though you've challenge me to define the role of the light bulb, or the cotton gin, or the assembly line, to the evolution of civilization. We all are pretty well aware of the influence of Guttenburg, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, and Marconi on the evolution of civilization.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

pianozach said:


> What . . . _*seriously*_? Um, OK, but what I'm going to answer with is pretty well agreed upon convention about Bach's contributions to the evolution of Classical music.
> 
> He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organization, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France.
> 
> ...


Not to mention that without the Goldberg Variations there probably would not have been Beethoven's Diabelli Variations. He was a big fan of Bach.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Couchie said:


> I disagree. Wagner is "problematic" and many universities have "cancelled" him from their Music 101 courses. Berlioz is substituted instead as the Romantic innovator.


That would be a bad mistake. Berlioz is not an equivalent to Wagner.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Roger Knox said:


> That would be a bad mistake. Berlioz is not an equivalent to Wagner.


I have to agree. Wagner's music was 'appropriated' long after his death, but those associations of his music still ripple to this day.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I disagree. Wagner is "problematic" and many universities have "cancelled" him from their Music 101 courses. Berlioz is substituted instead as the Romantic innovator.


Nonsense. No one has cancelled Wagner from undergrad history courses.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Where to begin?
> 
> Start with Bach.






pianozach said:


> Honestly, you really have to start with Gregorian Chant, and work your way to Medieval and Renaissance before you land on Bach.




That was too close for comfort.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Xisten267 said:


> Here is an optional list, with twenty suggestions of key works related to classical music. This list starts in the Middle Ages and ends in our millennium:
> 
> 1. Hildegard - Ordo Virtutum (c. 1151)
> 2. Machaut - Messe de Nostre Dame (c. 1365)
> ...


This is not bad. It's a little too heavy 1850 to 1913 and a little light on early music for my taste, so I would probably replace the Liszt and Brahms with ... maybe... Perotin's Viderunt Omnes and Dufay's Nuper Rosarum Flores.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Well, so this is it basically:






You can comment there if you have comments or criticisms! I would like to make another more accurate version in the future after collecting further info and feedbacks.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

ClassicalPower said:


> Well, so this is it basically:


I can understand Riley whose music I detest but I can`t understand the choice of Liszt and the selected work/excerpt in particular. A symphonic poem by Liszt would be more adequate as you seem to be focused on the "innovations". I`m not totally convinced about Vivaldi and Lully either.

I noticed that you mocked Stockhausen and Schoenberg in your video. Isn`t it a bit ironic that someone who is apparently a big fan of "innovation" like you, mocking two of the greatest innovators of all time? Also, you couldn`t have picked a worse 25 second long excerpt than the one you did for Schoenberg`s 2nd SQ.

But, at least, this video is no worse than your first endeavour...


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