# Robert Ashley



## Argus

Robert Ashley

Sky Arts has been showing a series of documentaries recoded in the early 80's called _4 American Composers_. The four composers featured are Philip Glass, John Cage, Meredith Monk and Robert Ashley. The Ashley episode specifically focussed on his television opera _Perfect Lives_. It was quite a weird opera in that all the sounds were produced by Ashley himself, two actors/singers, a piano player and electronic tapes. It's also weird in that there is not really any singing, and more of a regular speaking voice is used by Ashley and the actors. I am not a fan of opera yet I found this one to be both interesting and unintentionally quite funny, particularly when before every section of the opera Ashley repeats the line 'This is a song about the corn belt and the people on it OR in it'.

The documentary in question can be see on Youtube here.

I have also heard a few other pieces from Ashley on Last FM, as he is frequently grouped together with other artists I enjoy and listen to. _Automatic Writing_ was one of these pieces which I found very intriguing.

I don't frequent the opera forum much but I think I can remember some modern operas being mentioned like Glass' _Akhnaten_ and _Einstein on the Beach_, and Adams' _Nixon in China_, but very little mention of Ashley. I'd guess either people are unfamiliar with him or don't like his take on opera.

So what are peoples opinions of the man and his music?


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## Petwhac

All I've heard by him is a piece that *some_guy* recommended.
In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven There Were Men and Women (1972-1973 - Excerpt)
Perhaps his other stuff is quite different and you would like to recommend some.
I've listened to it several times now and if I never heard it again it would be too soon!
Sorry. 
It may be deep and meaningful, clever and innovative but it sounds quite tedious to me.
It makes me _not_ want to explore his output further.


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## Guest

Petwhac said:


> All I've heard by him is a piece that *some_guy* recommended.
> In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven There Were Men and Women (1972-1973 - Excerpt)
> 
> It may be deep and meaningful, clever and innovative but it sounds quite tedious to me.


I don't know if it's deep or meaningful or clever or innovative. I do know that I find it quite engaging. I put this on at a listening party awhile back, warning everyone that if I started it, they wouldn't want me to stop it, but that I didn't feel I should play the whole piece. (The limit for each person at a listening party is usually around 20 minutes.)

Well, I played the first four or five minutes, and sure enough, no one wanted me to stop it.

Minimal pieces often sound quite tedious to people who expect/desire something else. They used to sound that way to me. You can't listen to _In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven There were Men and Women_ like you would listen to Mahler's 2nd symphony. And vise versa, for that matter.

(By the way, since you didn't provide a link, I hope you weren't listening to that clip of Tortoise on LastFM, because that's nothing to do with Ashley's piece--at least the first couple of seconds I listened to. (Yes, there are things that _I_ find tedious, too!!))


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## Petwhac

some guy said:


> I don't know if it's deep or meaningful or clever or innovative. I do know that I find it quite engaging. I put this on at a listening party awhile back, warning everyone that if I started it, they wouldn't want me to stop it, but that I didn't feel I should play the whole piece. (The limit for each person at a listening party is usually around 20 minutes.)
> 
> Well, I played the first four or five minutes, and sure enough, no one wanted me to stop it.
> 
> Minimal pieces often sound quite tedious to people who expect/desire something else. They used to sound that way to me. You can't listen to _In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven There were Men and Women_ like you would listen to Mahler's 2nd symphony. And vise versa, for that matter.
> 
> (By the way, since you didn't provide a link, I hope you weren't listening to that clip of Tortoise on LastFM, because that's nothing to do with Ashley's piece--at least the first couple of seconds I listened to. (Yes, there are things that _I_ find tedious, too!!))


I searched for it in iTunes and bought it but it was only 3'58". I didn't realise there was more.
Anyway, what I heard I just don't get. I've listened several times and I think I have heard everything that is there, at least for that extract. Where is the depth? It seems one dimensional. Is it considered a piece of minimalism?
You said "Minimal pieces often sound quite tedious to people who expect/desire something else." 
All I expect from *any* piece is to not be bored. I would hope that after repeated listenings, *something* begins to grab my attention or resonate or seep into my brain but this I'm afraid I find pretentious and irritating.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to hear it but I still cannot understand the attraction.

What things do _you_ find tedious?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Argus said:


> So what are peoples opinions of the man and his music?


Ashley described his piece in the link as an _opera_ (the piece involving the words _this is a song about the corn belt and the people on it or in it_). Using the word opera implies it is a classical piece (albeit modern classical). I don't think he is really in for composing inspired music but dengerative nonsense that doesn't move modern music in any positive direction.

Can somone here enlighten me (and undoubtedly many other confused listeners) how Ashley's piece is an _opera_?


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## Argus

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Ashley described his piece in the link as an _opera_ (the piece involving the words _this is a song about the corn belt and the people on it or in it_). Using the word opera implies it is a classical piece (albeit modern classical). I don't think he is really in for composing inspired music but dengerative nonsense that doesn't move modern music in any positive direction.
> 
> Can somone here enlighten me (and undoubtedly many other confused listeners) how Ashley's piece is an _opera_?


From Wikipedia: _Opera is an art form in which singers and musicians perform a dramatic work combining text (called a libretto) and musical score._

I'd say _Perfect Lives_ meets all these requirements. What would you describe it as? (And to preempt you, don't say crap or words to that effect)

Also, could you give some examples of modern (post-1950's) composers that you think are moving modern music in a positive direction?

Even if you don't like his music, you must admit it is a fairly unique sound.



> All I expect from any piece is to not be bored. I would hope that after repeated listenings, something begins to grab my attention or resonate or seep into my brain but this I'm afraid I find pretentious and irritating.


The pretentiousness is one of his redeeming features. It's like off the scale. Most opera is pretty pretentious, if not most art, but unconsciously so. Ashley seems more aware of it. I don't find it irritating, however, just damn funny and relaxing.

(I am talking with respect to what little of his output I have heard)


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## Petwhac

Argus said:


> Even if you don't like his music, you must admit it is a fairly unique sound.


You should hear me trying to start my very old car on a damp winter morning while my dog is yapping with anticipation of going for a walk-now _that's_ a unique sound.



Argus said:


> The pretentiousness is one of his redeeming features. It's like off the scale. Most opera is pretty pretentious, if not most art, but unconsciously so.


As Picasso said "Art is not truth, it is a lie that _reveals_ a truth".


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## Guest

petwhac, even though it doesn't change much from start to finish (41 minutes), you really have to start listening at the beginning and just keep it on. Listening to a four minute chunk over and over again just won't be the same!

Otherwise, this may just be one of those pieces that you simply don't like. Plenty of stuff I don't like, too. Early synthesizer music, Chopin, Glass, late Reich, Telemann. Plenty of people do like all those things, though, so I don't take my dislike as any sort of judgment of the music. A judgment of me, maybe.

A lot of minimal music needs a lot of time to unfold its logic, to reveal its beauty. One iteration of Satie's _Vexations_ is nice. 840 changes everything. Boy howdy.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Argus said:


> I don't find it irritating, however, just damn funny and relaxing.


That's cool. My neighbour's dog farted at the weekend when I was chatting with my neighbour. It was running around us when it relieved itself. It was pretty funny at the time because we were talking about local politics (we recently saw a power hand over to our first female prime minister, Julia Gillard). The neighbour's dog is a bitch and her name is Julie. Anyway, we can all find some noise/sound or even music in the right context bleeming with humour.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

some guy said:


> petwhac, even though it doesn't change much from start to finish (41 minutes), you really have to start listening at the beginning and just keep it on. Listening to a four minute chunk over and over again just won't be the same!
> 
> Otherwise, this may just be one of those pieces that you simply don't like. Plenty of stuff I don't like, too. Early synthesizer music, Chopin, Glass, late Reich, Telemann. Plenty of people do like all those things, though, so I don't take my dislike as any sort of judgment of the music. A judgment of me, maybe.
> 
> A lot of minimal music needs a lot of time to unfold its logic, to reveal its beauty. One iteration of Satie's _Vexations_ is nice. 840 changes everything. Boy howdy.


Watch it, some_guy. I quite like Telemann (on period isntruments).  If we were living in the same city, we would probably be out having a few drinks discussing the virtues of Robert Ashley versus Telemann right now.


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## Guest

We'd certainly be having a few drinks, I know that!


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## Petwhac

some guy said:


> petwhac, even though it doesn't change much from start to finish (41 minutes), you really have to start listening at the beginning and just keep it on. Listening to a four minute chunk over and over again just won't be the same!
> 
> Otherwise, this may just be one of those pieces that you simply don't like. Plenty of stuff I don't like, too. Early synthesizer music, Chopin, Glass, late Reich, Telemann. Plenty of people do like all those things, though, so I don't take my dislike as any sort of judgment of the music. A judgment of me, maybe.
> 
> A lot of minimal music needs a lot of time to unfold its logic, to reveal its beauty. One iteration of Satie's _Vexations_ is nice. 840 changes everything. Boy howdy.


Chopin? *Chopin*? There must be _some _you like. He ain't no Beethoven or Schumann or Brahms but surely.........???


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## Petwhac

some guy said:


> One iteration of Satie's _Vexations_ is nice. 840 changes everything. Boy howdy.


Oh yeah, 840 would be vexing that's for sure.

I'd rather leave a concert hall just bored (Telemann) than bored _and _p**sed off.


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## Argus

some guy said:


> petwhac, even though it doesn't change much from start to finish (41 minutes), you really have to start listening at the beginning and just keep it on. Listening to a four minute chunk over and over again just won't be the same!
> 
> Otherwise, this may just be one of those pieces that you simply don't like. Plenty of stuff I don't like, too. Early synthesizer music, Chopin, Glass, late Reich, Telemann. Plenty of people do like all those things, though, so I don't take my dislike as any sort of judgment of the music. A judgment of me, maybe.
> 
> A lot of minimal music needs a lot of time to unfold its logic, to reveal its beauty. One iteration of Satie's _Vexations_ is nice. 840 changes everything. Boy howdy.


Glass? *Glass*? There must be _some_ you like. He ain't no Riley or Young or Eno but surely.........???


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## Guest

Hahaha, alright you guys. Yes, there are a few Chopin pieces I can enjoy. And a few Glass pieces that I can still get through. There are probably even some Telemann pieces that I'd like, if I ever listened to them. But that's all about me, not about Chopin or Glass or Telemann, remember.

And I'm not as interesting as any of those three. (I mean it!)


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## Earthling

some guy said:


> Hahaha, alright you guys. Yes, there are a few Chopin pieces I can enjoy. And a few Glass pieces that I can still get through.


IMO, Glass was really interesting up until he wrote _Satyagraha_.


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## Argus

This one goes out to HC.















And for afters.











Now that is good wedding music.

Bon appetit.:tiphat:


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Thanks, Argus. Are you intending to play them at your own wedding (I'm assuming you are not married)? I hope your future wife loves you as much as she does her wedding music, too. 

Don't forget to send me the invite for your special day.


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## Argus

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Thanks, Argus. Are you intending to play them at your own wedding (I'm assuming you are not married)? I hope your future wife loves you as much as she does her wedding music, too.
> 
> Don't forget to send me the invite for your special day.


Apart from the obvious problems of explaining why I invited a stranger from the opposite side of the globe to our wedding, you coming would mean I'd feel obliged to include some Stockhausen as well. Hiring a string quartet is one thing, but renting 4 helicopters for them to perform in might be a tad too extravagant.:tiphat:

I was hoping for a more detailed critique of the Ashley pieces. I think The Wolfman is among his best works I've heard.


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## Noak

I've only heard The Wolfman compilation album. Interesting stuff indeed.


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## Morimur

Robert Ashley surely deserves a better thread than this—such a lack of respect for the man's work.


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## tortkis

Agreed, Ashley's music is fascinating, so far as I have heard.

Like what some guy wrote in the previous page, when I first listened to _In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven There Were Men and Women_, I couldn't stop it.

I only listened to a part of _Perfect Lives_, which was so fantastic that I am going to order DVD.

I think he is exploring the possibilities of speech as music. It has been done and is being done by other composers, but his works are quite unique.

Recently, I heard _Superior Seven_ (Concerto for Flute and Orchestra) and I really liked it. It was played by the flutist Barbara Held and MIDI orchestra. The synthesizer may sound cheap, but the music is very captivating.


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## violadude

My favorite pieces that I have heard by Robert Ashley are Celestial Excursions and Improvement. His work might be kind of repetitive, but they are enchanting and engaging even so.

I only have excerpts to offer:

Improvements: 




Celestial Excursions:


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