# Any love for the Bassoon out there...?



## WhateverDude (Jun 21, 2019)

Recorder players moan about the lack of post baroque works for the recorder..... apparently the flute was seen as a more adult instrument... but the Bassoon has suffered too..... any love for that rich wind sound.... or not....?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

WhateverDude said:


> Recorder players moan about the lack of post baroque works for the recorder..... apparently the flute was seen as a more adult instrument... but the Bassoon has suffered too..... any love for that rich wind sound.... or not....?


You've come to the right place -

Arpeggio, Knorf, mbhaub, and myself are all bassoonists..
several of us have played professionally for years....


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I adore it. It's a wind cello!


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

The bassoon is a great instrument. It has a great sound and, with a talented artist behind the reed, has a distinctive and expressive voice.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Let's see .... I have a love for balloons, baboons, buffoons, barrooms (especially when they serve great wings!), blue moons .... Er ... what was the topic again?

Oh. By the way....

Here are a couple of recordings currently in my collection that I think folks might well enjoy making an acquaintance with:









































Oh, did I mention Cartoons? Raccoons? Macaroons? ...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It's very difficult to find high quality bassoon compositions that transcend the brevity of sonatas. Here are some I enjoy:

Danny Bond playing *Mozart *on an old instrument









Rino Vernizzi's collection, especially the *Villa-Lobos* and *Jolivet*









Sergio Azzolini playing the *Gubaidulina* and *Hindemith* concertos









Dieter Klocker playing *Weber's concerto* and "Quadrupel" Konzert









Also try to find a copy of *Rossini's Bassoon Concerto*. They say it's a knock-off by one of his students after he quit composing but one never knows. Still sounds like Rossini.

Ignore the photo following; I could not delete it.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, it's a wonderful instrument that needs the skill of good players to express it well.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

For me, second only to the French Horn as an orchestral and solo instrument.

May I take this opportunity to give a huge shout out for *SERGIO AZZOLINI *- incomparable in Vivaldi!!!


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

That fagott? Some get a little love - most don't get enough.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

As an aside, I spend a couple months this summer looking for jazz on bassoon -- 

Very rare. I found 3 or 4 only. Apparently double reed instruments are devilishly hard to 'swing.'


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There are actually quite a few jazz bassoonists - Mike Curtis is a huge proponent. There are even people who play bassoon in rock bands. I know one of those players - it's awful, but then I can't stand rock in the first place.

Sibelius thought that the sound of the bassoon embodied the Finnish spirit. The long bassoon solo in the first movement of the 5th symphony is a good example of that.

Here's a controversial statement: The Second Bassoon is the most important instrument in the orchestra. It provides the foundation for the tuning of the wind section, and the wind are not as flexible in tuning as the other sections. So the strings must adjust to the wind section, like it or not. And the brass section, which doesn't play as often must also then adjust to match the strings and winds. So if that 2nd bassoonist is out of tune, the whole orchestra is going to be. If only the parts weren't so boring!!!

Bassoons, like every other wind instrument, have an identity crisis in that there are no concertos of the stature like the great violin and piano concertos. The only great composer who wrote a bassoon concerto is Mozart - and it's a pretty early work of his. But there are plenty of excellent 2nd tier concertos. but sadly don't show up all that often on concerts; audiences like their piano and violin concertos.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

NoCoPilot said:


> As an aside, I spend a couple months this summer looking for jazz on bassoon --
> 
> Very rare. I found 3 or 4 only. Apparently double reed instruments are devilishly hard to 'swing.'


Illinois Jacquet (tenor saxophonist) also 2bled on jazz Bassoon...Ray Pizzi (LA bassoonist) is a jazzer, as well.


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## Owen David (May 15, 2020)

I love the bassoon sound and I like using it in composing on a synth as it is probably one of the most convincing of the synth orchestral sounds across the full range...well on my synth at least. To my ear it presents as a very pure sound.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Sibelius thought that the sound of the bassoon embodied the Finnish spirit. The long bassoon solo in the first movement of the 5th symphony is a good example of that.


Sibelius wrote excellent bassoon parts...his symphonies, tone poems, Vln Cto all have great parts...great fun to play.


> Here's a controversial statement: The Second Bassoon is the most important instrument in the orchestra. It provides the foundation for the tuning of the wind section, and the wind are not as flexible in tuning as the other sections. So the strings must adjust to the wind section, like it or not. And the brass section, which doesn't play as often must also then adjust to match the strings and winds. So if that 2nd bassoonist is out of tune, the whole orchestra is going to be. If only the parts weren't so boring!!!


You make a good point...if the 2nd bassoon lays down the roots of the chords in tune then the rest of the winds will be solid...the strings will adjust...they can keep going up in pitch, the winds can't compete in that contest!! The woodwinds need to set the pitch, and bassoon 2 is crucial in maintaining it..
I once had a trying experience with this - I was hired as a ringer to play in one of the Boston music school orchestras...I played wherever, whatever they needed me to...I was playing Bssn II on Mozart "Prague" symphony (wonderful ww parts!!)
Problem was - students were playing principal ww positions...and they didn't know, were not solid enough to keep the pitch down...they kept playing #er and #er....I was doing my best to keep the pitch down to c442 or so, but the others kept climbing....soon, they were cracking notes, left and right, as the pitch level put their notes "out of the window" of response....modern instruments are not designed to play at 447+ or whatever stratospheric level they were reaching...the first player was another ringer, of somewhat dubious competence...took issue with me between movements, to stop playing so flat!!...I snapped back, that I couldn't play at that high a level even if I wanted to, and they should bring the f---g pitch down!! Icy silence ensued, and the winds continued to crack, squeak and squawk their way thru Mozart...pretty agonizing experience...I had a long talk with the conductor afterwards....these kids needed to be taught how to establish and maintain pitch level.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

NoCoPilot said:


> ... jazz on bassoon --
> 
> Very rare. ...Apparently double reed instruments are devilishly hard to 'swing.'


Rare indeed. Blood dripping off the plate. I'll prefer well done. Such as this:


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

The Boehm flute replaced the baroque flute and the recorder that weren't loud enough. This problem isn't so acute at the bassoon.

Love for the bassoon, sure. That's why I learn it.

And yes, it swings, even better than a saxophone (which I played too). More control over the tone height, upwards too. Now that amplifiers exist, we "only" need more jazz bassoonists. OK, the fingerings are plain bad, that doesn't help.

Nevertheless, I suggest that composers add a full group of bass clarinets (doubling on a contrabass) to symphonic orchestras. It would balance the woodwinds, which presently have 3 sopranos and 1 bass groups, and bring more diverse sounds and capabilities.

The bassoon has fewer compositions than other woodwinds, that's abnormal. Bassoonists must let composers know the instrument, so expressive. Meanwhile, we loot the repertoire of other instruments, ah.

Fingerings may be an obstacle to write for the bassoon. But if a luthier adopts my system, and musicians follow, the bassoon will become easy to play and write. The system has big acoustical advantages too.
Introduction to fingerings - Fingerings system B - Main holes - Lone holes
I know my description is a mess. Woodwind systems are always difficult to explain.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It's a wonderful instrument . . . and the discovery of Higgs' bassoon several years ago was in the news for a long time!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Enthalpy said:


> Fingerings may be an obstacle to write for the bassoon. But if a luthier adopts my system, and musicians follow, the bassoon will become easy to play and write.


There have been many attempts to correct the fingering of the German-system bassoon. All have met with failure, except one. The fingerings, while complex and often irrational are the necessary evil for the timbre of the instrument. There's something about the way the chimneys are made that no one has ever fully explained in terms of physics. To make a Boehm-like fingering removes those all-important tubes and the characteristic sound is lost. The one significant improvement was made by a one-time teacher of mine, Arthur Weisberg. He developed a mechanism to eliminate the need for flicking - and it really works!

The contrabassoon may look like a bassoon, have a similar reed and many equal fingerings, but really the contra isn't a bassoon - the tone holes go straight into the bore, not at an angle. It's really more akin to a clarinet. Even in Heckel's day they recognized the deficiencies in the design; the bore is the wrong size, some tone holes too big, some too small. There have been some gradual improvements, but it wasn't until recently that the instrument underwent wholesale redesign. The Kontraforte has logical fingerings, a vastly improved high register, far more even tuning and an eye popping price tag. But it sure looks cool! Sounds great, too, and can really pump out the volume. But a lot of conductors are wary of it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I love bassoon and bass clarinet. By this stage in my life I should own more recordings that features these instruments. I do have the Aho/Fagerlund concertos CD on BIS. And I've got the Gubaidulina bassoon disc on Chndos as well as Panufnik's concerto. But that's about it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The grandfather in Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf is represented by a bassoon. That was one of my first classical music experiences as a small child. Other than that I don't go looking for bassoon in particular. It likely is in a lot of the orchestral music I listen to though.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

MarkW said:


> It's a wonderful instrument . . . and the discovery of Higgs' bassoon several years ago was in the news for a long time!


You are referring to, I suspect, the so-called "God instrument"?

So, God is a bassoonist. Not a real surprise, is it? I, for one, could never see the old guy playing that heavenly harp. Bassoon makes sense.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

There's some seriously _amazing_ bassoon playing to be heard on this album of Villa-Lobos' wind music, particularly in the Duo for Oboe and Bassoon and the Trio for Clarinet, Oboe, and Bassoon. Knorf has mentioned that he has personal experience playing this music as a bassoonist.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> [...] The fingerings, while complex and often irrational are the necessary evil for the timbre of the instrument. There's something about the way the chimneys are made that no one has ever fully explained in terms of physics. To make a Boehm-like fingering removes those all-important tubes and the characteristic sound is lost. [...]


Hi mbhaub and the others, thanks for your interest!

I fully agree that Boehm-inspired designs, with wide tone holes, don't fit double reeds. Triebert, Gautrot, Sax, all failed on that, Heckel initially too. Neither the clarinet has wide short tone holes at the throat. Acoustics properly explains at least that.

Consistently, my proposal is not wide tone holes. I reject them explicitly, somewhere in the long messy thread at Scienceforums.

Whether somewhat shorter narrower tone holes can replace the very long wider ones? I have no definite opinion about that until I put some thoughts and figures, and better, experiment. This is not a part of my proposal. Single holes can keep the inductance, or the loss, but not both, if shorter and narrower. The fortissimo behaviour may differ too.

So I do want to keep narrow tone holes, at least at the throat notes, just like Heckel had to do. But I do claim that the fingerings can improve hugely. Narrow tone holes can be all open below the main transition (which Boehm systems don't provide), and then you get a homogeneous instrument. One specialized register hole per semitone should help radically the musician. Put that together with buttons organized for easy playing, and you have the system I propose.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

One of the saddest things to me is that so few recordings by the great French bassoonist, Maurice Allard (1923-2004), made it into the CD era...
This fabulous artist made many recordings - several of the Mozart Concerto, and they are all wonderful..
Now, Allard played a French bassoon [Buffet] - which has a very different tone from the German [Heckel] instrument.

I don't care too much for the French "basson" in orchestra - it lacks the heft, the resonance of the German bassoons - but for solo work, in the hands of a great artist, it is most enjoyable....wonderful flexibility, agility, response, esp in the high register.

Allard had great technique, chops to spare...the technical problems of a piece are never even an issue..his Mozart is deliciously "vocal", like a great tenor or baritone, beautiful phrasing, exquisite lines...

He released a collection of Vivaldi Concerti - 5 of them, on an LP, which, alas, never made it to CD...
If you ever run across a recording by this great artist, grab it - they are now, rare, few and far between....


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

No one should overlook or forget the great bassoon belch in Elgar's Falstaff -- a very funny moment.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Or Beethoven's fart in the 2nd symphony. And the bowel discomfort from Puccini's Gianni Schichi. Or the once common nickname of our instrument, the Belching Bedpost. We've hear it all...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Or Beethoven's fart in the 2nd symphony. And the bowel discomfort from Puccini's Gianni Schichi. Or the once common nickname of our instrument, the Belching Bedpost. We've hear it all...


Haydn #93/II - the best!!
Also - the great dinosaur blat in "The Creation"!! Wonderful!!


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## WhateverDude (Jun 21, 2019)

The Bassoon may not be the most beautiful sounding instrument, at times... (But at others it most undoubtedly is).. However it is probably the most beautiful looking instrument.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

It will certainly burn longer than a clarinet


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> *The grandfather in Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf is represented by a bassoon. That was one of my first classical music experiences as a small child. * Other than that I don't go looking for bassoon in particular. It likely is in a lot of the orchestral music I listen to though.


Yes, same for me. In addition, I very much like RV 484 and 485 from Vivaldi, concertos for bassoon in E Minor and F, respectively, along with Mozart's Bassoon Concerto in B Flat.

One of my oldest albums in my collection is a wonderful recording of 7 Concerti for Woodwind and Strings, from Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert, which contains the RV485.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I do have this, a very nice listening experience, and it has bassoons. This is one I actually had way back in the days of vinyl LPs and rebought on CD.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Danzi composed some great bassoon concertos.

Among the sonatas check out the Hindemith and Saint-Saëns.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

Just think of how Stravinsky used the Bassoon in the Rite of spring...fantastic!

I really like the instrument and a orchestra wouldn't be the same without it ... pieces mentioned in this thread like the Vivaldi and the pieces Mozart wrote are all worth a listen.
Part of grandfather in Peter and the Wolf springs to mind too


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

HerbertNorman said:


> Just think of how Stravinsky used the Bassoon in the Rite of spring...fantastic!


It was supposed to sound really crude and vulgar...but bassoonists soon conquered the solo with ease. Stravinsky supposedly was so annoyed he said that if he'd known it would be so easy that he's write it up a half-step every year! The solo still instills fear though, and deservedly so. There are several live recordings out there where the player chokes.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

HerbertNorman said:


> Just think of how Stravinsky used the Bassoon in the Rite of spring...fantastic!


Stravinsky wrote great bassoon parts, he really loved the instrument....demanding, challenging to play, but they sound great....so many excerpts - try
Octet [2 bssns]
L'Histoire du Soldat
Pulcinella
Symphony in 3 Mvts
Sym in C
Song of the Nightingale

to just name a few....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> It was supposed to sound really crude and vulgar...but bassoonists soon conquered the solo with ease. Stravinsky supposedly was so annoyed he said that if he'd known it would be so easy that he's write it up a half-step every year! The solo still instills fear though, and deservedly so. There are several live recordings out there where the player chokes.


Right, it's not supposed to sound all polished and smooth - it was a "Dudka"[sp??] melody - a Russian folk instrument....there was a long, very interesting article in the IDRS Journal a number of years back....
funny - it's the same tune as the clarinet melody at the end of "Night on Bald Mountain", after the spirits and demons retire with daybreak...Stravinsky just alters the rhythm a bit...

It is a major solo, of course, but I think Pulcinella is the most difficult. I've heard this one botched [esp Gavotte/Var2] on recording and in live performance...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> It was supposed to sound really crude and vulgar...but bassoonists soon conquered the solo with ease. Stravinsky supposedly was so annoyed he said that if he'd known it would be so easy that he's write it up a half-step every year! The solo still instills fear though, and deservedly so. There are several live recordings out there where the player chokes.


Sol Schoenbach related his experience with this solo - when Philadelphia recorded the sound track for the 1939 "Fantasia" - 
He said he had always feared this solo, and was apprehensive when it appeared on the program...at the Fantasia sessions, something kept going wrong, mostly with the timing, iirc - and they had to keep repeating it....He said he had to play the solo thru 37 times!! - before they finally got it all right, with the right timings....after that, he said it was a piece of cake!!

re "Fantasia" - the "Sorcerer's Apprentice" section was the one section NOT performed by Philadelphia. I forget the reason why, but it was recorded in LA, with a pickup group of LA and studio musicians. Don Christlieb was one of the bassoonists...not sure about the others...


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Stravinsky wrote great bassoon parts, he really loved the instrument....demanding, challenging to play, but they sound great....so many excerpts - try
> Octet [2 bssns]
> L'Histoire du Soldat
> Pulcinella
> ...


Yes , extraordinary , I really like the way the bassoon is used in all of those pieces .
He must have loved the instrument , because it stands out often in his work...and it's used so effectively


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## WhateverDude (Jun 21, 2019)

SixFootScowl said:


> I do have this, a very nice listening experience, and it has bassoons. This is one I actually had way back in the days of vinyl LPs and rebought on CD.


Excellent. I've managed to track down a re release on Amazon... It only contains 4 of the divertimenti recorded above but adds 3 serenades on a two CD set. I believe the reason the last divertimenti is excluded, apart from lack of space, is that it is not now believed to be the work of Mozart.


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