# It looks like Bach has to give some answers...



## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

I seem to have come across a case of plagiarism by Bach. It's known that he liked Vivaldi but all he was known to do, was to knowingly transcribe his concertos. Now, I heard this, and I'm sure that if Bach were Andrew Lloyd Webber, Vivaldi might have tried to sue him.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

That's a trivial, coincidental similarity, neighbor motions around the notes of a triad. Would be laughed out of copyright court — even today.


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## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> That's a trivial, coincidental similarity, neighbor motions around the notes of a triad. Would be laughed out of copyright court - even today.


We'll see that in court, Mr. Bast.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This is my favourite example






and


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Which one's the "thief"?















Baroque composers borrowed from one another constantly. The important thing is what they did with their borrowings. More often than not I think the resemblance is coincidental. Here's an example of what is apparently a quotation:











I don't think Telemann sued Bach.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Indeed, a phenomenon that keeps coming Bach time and time again.. Something Bach won't come Bach and look Bach at history to explain

9:50












hammeredklavier said:


> Isn't this reminiscent of Bach's "Buß und Reu"


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I learned something today....


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

In Coethen Bach had to write a canata every week. Let's imagine his thinking:

"I'm always in a hurry to write a cantata. They get forgotten after they're performed, so if I borrow this Vivaldi melody nobody will know the difference."

I agree with dissident. They borrowed/stole constantly.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Aurelian said:


> I agree with dissident. They borrowed/stole constantly.


To my understanding, it was considered a compliment if a composer borrowed from you. Am I right about that?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Another example. Listen at about the 35 second mark here:




...and compare with the 2 minute mark here:





I think the Bach came first.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I think I can finally rest my passion for "music" if we start to patent all the melodies and each singular passage of imitation, so start with the diatonic scales. :lol:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Ariasexta said:


> I think I can finally rest my passion for "music" if we start to patent all the melodies and each singular passage of imitation, so start with the diatonic scales. :lol:


Wise sayings (and meanings) wanted!:tiphat:


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Rogerx said:


> Wise sayings (and meanings) wanted!:tiphat:


As history shows: Patent agencies shark, that is why Einstein escaped.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Ariasexta said:


> As history shows: Patent agencies shark, that is why Einstein escaped.


If the agencies are patent, everyone may escape.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

premont said:


> If the agencies are patent, everyone may escape.


We are full of patents now, stupidphones, computers, textiles, only copyright allows some escapement. Some people assume a genius should make 1000 original pieces alone and publish them like dishes that change everyday and every season as long as they gety paid heftily or like some chipmakers killing 10s thousand people a year with pollution parading with cutting edge original technologies that with each new-gen product always suck more power and help more spamwares to steal into your harddisc than the previous. So much porection for those who steal more and cost more than they offer for the money.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

* It looks like Bach has to give some answers...*



Dimboukas said:


> I seem to have come across a case of plagiarism by Bach. ...


Well, _you_ can do the interrogation. I could only stammer incoherently in the presence of this great man.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

I believe composers and musicians alike considered borrowing motifs or musical sentences simply "common language" back then, much in the same spirit we see in jazz today. They did improvise too. A LOT. Let's say I write down a great lick from Sonny Rollins and learn it in all 12 keys. Then I change the rhythm, apply it in slightly different harmonic contexts, resolve it a slightly different way. I'm learning vocabulary to enrich my conversations with fellow musicians. I haven't stolen anything. I'm only learning the language. Sonny did the same when listening to Lester. As the great Clark Terry said: Imitate, internalize and then create. Think Bach, Vivaldi, Telemann... you name it.

Listen to your owns kids. They did steal some words and sentences off ya'. A bit embarrassing sometimes. You might want to call the lawyers. Originality is not only a very modern concept in history -along with the glorification of the individual- it's also vastly overrated.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

vincula said:


> I believe composers and musicians alike considered borrowing motifs or musical sentences simply "common language" back then, much in the same spirit we see in jazz today.


I remember the jazz composer Kim Richmond giving a clinic where he said everyone should have what he called a bag of licks; as you said, things to help to structure improvisation. Then he played something and said, "I got this from Ornette Coleman. Well, he got it from Charlie Parker." And Charlie Parker was not averse to appropriating licks from his scale exercise books.

Things like that can be an aid to familiarity for a listener. One reason the Renaissance composers inserted popular songs into their mass settings was so that the congregants would have some frame of reference among the sea of independent voices.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

It's just a matter of time that someone will start a thread here to sue Bach for stealing the melody of "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden" from Hans Leo Haßler.

And then finding out that Bach stole all the melodies in his "Orgelbüchlein" too.

And then someone is going to sue Shostakovich for stealing melodies from Russian folk songs and from Rossini.

And then Mahler for stealing the intro of his 5th from Mendelssohn's Hochzeitsmarsch.

And then...

Well, the forum's server is already "too busy" too often, so I will stop here.


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