# Beethoven's thoughts about Mozart



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Beethoven in his early years idolized Mozart. Yet, in 1815 when Beethoven was asked who was the greatest ever composer, he said Handel.

Can somebody recommend a source which describes in detail Beethoven's thoughts about Mozart the person and Mozart's works?

Please note: This is *NOT *a "who was better" discussion. All I am asking for is a book or web site.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Aurelian said:


> Beethoven in his early years idolized Mozart. Yet, in 1815 when Beethoven was asked who was the greatest ever composer, he said Handel.
> 
> Can somebody recommend a source which describes in detail Beethoven's thoughts about Mozart the person and Mozart's works?
> 
> Please note: This is *NOT *a "who was better" discussion. All I am asking for is a book or web site.


I have looked in several Beethoven biographies - I always go to the back and look in the index under "Mozart" - there is rarely more than half a dozen references. I think the truth is that Beethoven respected Mozart - but no more so than many other composers, perhaps even Salieri.

It's not really until later that composers begin to appreciate the full extent of Mozart's legacy and his place at or near the top of the hierarchy.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

There is an anecdote I've seen several times that the prude in Beethoven expressed dissatisfaction that Mozart could put such heavenly music coming out the mouth of such a degenerate as Don Giovanni.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Beethoven had a profound admiration for Mozart. He identified him as one of music's 'great men' and regularly requested copies of his instrumental and vocal works from publishers. Beethoven once attended an outdoor concert of Mozart’s great C minor Piano Concerto. He turned to his friend Johann Baptist Cramer and said with a sigh: “Ah, Cramer. We will never be able to do anything like that.” In a letter to Abbe Maximilian Stadler Beethoven wrote, 'I have always counted myself amongst the greatest admirers of Mozart and shall remain so until my last breath'.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Beethoven had a profound admiration for Mozart. He identified him as one of music's 'great men' and regularly requested copies of his instrumental and vocal works from publishers. Beethoven once attended an outdoor concert of Mozart's great C minor Piano Concerto. He turned to his friend Johann Baptist Cramer and said with a sigh: "Ah, Cramer. We will never be able to do anything like that." In a letter to Abbe Maximilian Stadler Beethoven wrote, 'I have always counted myself amongst the greatest admirers of Mozart and shall remain so until my last breath'.


I wonder what it is, exactly, that he heard in the concerto which made him react like that.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I wonder what it is, exactly, that he heard in the concerto which made him react like that.


Possibly what Beethoven scholar Lewis Lockwood has called the incomparable 'balance, finish and fertility' of Mozart's late piano concertos. Qualities that Beethoven first sought to emulate, inevitably fell short, but in the process discovered his own strengths.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Some remarks bearing on Beethoven's opinion of Mozart and Handel.

Cipriani Potter once asked Beethoven who was the greatest composer, living or dead. "He had always considered Mozart as such, but since he had been made acquainted with Handel he put him at the head." (letter from Potter to Thayer)

A remark by Beethoven: "_Die Zauberflote_ will always remain Mozart's greatest work, for in it he for the first time showed himself to be a German musician. _Don Juan_ still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of a foil for so scandalous a subject." (reported by Seyfried)

Asked which of Mozart's operas he thought most of: "_Die Zauberflote_, said Beethoven, and, suddenly clasping his hands and throwing up his eyes, exclaimed: 'Oh, Mozart!' " (Hozalka, reported in Thayer)

On his death-bed, about the middle of February, 1827, Beethoven said to young Gerhard von Breuning, on receiving Handel's works: "Handel is the greatest and ablest of all composers; from him I can still learn. Bring me the books!"

"Handel is the greatest composer that ever lived. I would uncover my head and kneel on his grave." (Fall of 1823, to J. A. Stumpff, harp maker of London, who acted very nobly toward Beethoven in his last days. It was he who rejoiced the dying composer by sending him the forty volumes of Handel's works.)


----------



## newyorkconversation (Dec 6, 2017)

As a young prodigy, Beethoven made plans to study with Mozart in Vienna, but had to return to Bonn when his mother took ill. By the time he got back to Vienna Mozart was dead. 

It seems unclear whether Beethoven ever actually met Mozart or whether Mozart accepted him as a student. 

Beethoven did of course study with Haydn, but was never as close with Papa Haydn as Mozart had been. 

I do realize this in no way offers a book or website but hope it's acceptable as relevant context!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A good book on Beethoven's musical opinions, expressed first-hand, is Huebsch's _Beethoven: The Man and the Artist As Revealed in His Own Words_. This is quite an old book, and the contributions by Schindler are best taken with a dash of skepticism.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Ma...=1522778802&sr=1-1&keywords=beethoven+huebsch

For a web site:

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/beethoven-s-words/8-beethoven-the-critic


----------



## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Rick writes, "Beethoven once attended an outdoor concert of Mozart’s great C minor Piano Concerto. He turned to his friend Johann Baptist Cramer and said with a sigh: “Ah, Cramer. We will never be able to do anything like that.”"

I've read that Beethoven made the same remark to his student Ferdinand Ries. Did Beethoven attend the concert with both Cramer & Ries?

Beethoven said that the three composers he admired most were Handel, Bach, and Mozart, and in that order. It surprises me that he left Haydn off the list, given the obvious early influence of Haydn on his work, but then, he probably considered Mozart a superior composer to Haydn, and Mozart was a stronger influence on his later work (as were Handel & Bach). With his great admiration for Handel, Beethoven was following in Mozart's footsteps (as he did in many ways when he returned to Vienna in 1792), who like J.S. Bach had the highest regard for Handel's music; which was introduced to Mozart by Van Swieten. (Beethoven was also likely introduced to Handel by Van Swieten, and possibly at Mozart's initial urging or suggestion in 1787.) Later, Beethoven also greatly admired the "devotion to the divine" of the "old church composers", but frustratingly he didn't name any names. Which has led to speculation that he was referring to Josquin Desprez, Ockeghem, Dufay, or possibly Palestrina. (Personally, I would love to know whether he studied the music of Josquin.)

As for what Beethoven saw in Mozart's K. 491 PC, why not listen to it in relation to Beethoven's 3rd PC, which many, including pianist Charles Rosen, astutely think was based upon Mozart's K. 491 PC (& his great admiration for that concerto).

Finally, Beethoven's Pathetique Piano Sonata, Op. 13 is obviously an elegy or homage to Mozart, as it simply can't be a coincidence that it is the only time in Beethoven's opus that he directly quotes a contemporary composer, i.e., a passage from Mozart's Piano Sonata K. 457.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Josquin13 said:


> Rick writes, "Beethoven once attended an outdoor concert of Mozart's great C minor Piano Concerto. He turned to his friend Johann Baptist Cramer and said with a sigh: "Ah, Cramer. We will never be able to do anything like that.""
> 
> I've read that Beethoven made the same remark to his student Ferdinand Ries. Did Beethoven attend the concert with both Cramer & Ries?


Unlikely. Cramer left Vienna for England in 1800, and Ries didn't arrive in Vienna until the very end of 1802. In any event, this was supposed to have been said at Beethoven's first hearing of the concerto, which suggests an earlier date -- I'm thinking 1793-1795.

I don't recall any mention of Ries in connection with the anecdote.


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Which pieces by Handel made Beethoven such an admirer? Is there any information on this?
Sorry to go a little off topic.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Which pieces by Handel made Beethoven such an admirer? Is there any information on this?
> Sorry to go a little off topic.


I wonder indeed.

perhaps I dont know Handel well enough

setting aside opera I can think of

concerti grossi (fine works but I think they are not that great)
water music
organ concerti
royal fireworks
dixit dominus
violin sonatas

I am sure I must have missed something

but I wonder what it is among those that made Beethoven rate him higher than Bach and Mozart


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Unlikely. Cramer left Vienna for England in 1800, and Ries didn't arrive in Vienna until the very end of 1802. In any event, this was supposed to have been said at Beethoven's first hearing of the concerto, which suggests an earlier date -- I'm thinking 1793-1795.


The anecdote was told to Thayer by Cramer's widow and refers to a conversation that allegedly took place in 1799.

A partial list of works in which Beethoven used specific Mozart models includes the piano quartets in E-flat, D, and C major (1785) modeled, respectively, on Mozart's sonatas for violin and piano in G major, K.379/373a, E-flat major, K.380/374f, and C major, K.296; the Trio in E-flat major for Violin, Viola, and Cello, op. 3 (1795) modeled after Mozart's Divertimento for String Trio in E-flat Major, K.563; "Ah! Perfido," op.65 (1795-96) modeled after Mozart's "Bella mia fiamma," K.528; the Quintet for Piano and Winds in E-flat Major, op.16 (1796-97) modeled after Mozart's Quintet for Piano and Winds in E-flat Major, K452; and the String Quartet in A Major, op.18, no.5, modeled after Mozart's Quartet in A Major, K. 464.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

DeepR said:


> Which pieces by Handel made Beethoven such an admirer? Is there any information on this?
> Sorry to go a little off topic.


Johann Reinhold Schultz reported on the dinner in 1823 at which Beethoven declared Handel the greatest composer that ever lived. "I cannot describe to you", Schultz writes, "with what pathos, and I am inclined to say, with what sublimity of language, he spoke of the 'Messiah' of this immortal genius."

There has never been a consensus among music historians, however, about exactly what Beethoven admired or sought to emulate in Handel. In his book on Beethoven, the German musicologist Carl Dahlhaus maintains that Beethoven transported the aesthetic of the monumental Handelian chorus into his symphonies, displacing the sacred choral music into a secular genre and, by extension, the power of the divine into art.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Josquin13 said:


> Rick writes, "Beethoven once attended an outdoor concert of Mozart's great C minor Piano Concerto. He turned to his friend Johann Baptist Cramer and said with a sigh: "Ah, Cramer. We will never be able to do anything like that.""
> 
> I've read that Beethoven made the same remark to his student Ferdinand Ries. Did Beethoven attend the concert with both Cramer & Ries?
> 
> ...


he admired their devotion

not necessarily their compositions


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DeepR said:


> Which pieces by Handel made Beethoven such an admirer? Is there any information on this?
> Sorry to go a little off topic.


Beethoven seemed to admire composers mostly for their vocal and choral works, at least based on his scattered recorded remarks: Handel for his oratorios (_Saul _was mentioned), Mozart for his operas, Cherubini for his Requiem. I can't think of his mentioning an instrumental work in this regard other than Mozart's C minor Piano Concerto. Bach may be an exception: of course Beethoven knew the WTC well, but I can't recall a mention of any specific work in his remarks about Bach.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven seemed to admire composers mostly for their vocal and choral works,... Cherubini for his Requiem.


Along with Haydn's symphonies, Cherubini's overtures were among the most frequently performed pieces in Vienna in the first decade of the nineteenth century. When walking through the woods with Beethoven one day in 1817, the English composer Cipriani Potter asked him: Apart from yourself, who do you consider the greatest living composer? Beethoven answered, "Cherubini." He had earlier proclaimed Cherubini "Europe's foremost dramatic composer." And in 1823 he wrote to Cherubini that, "I am enraptured whenever I hear a new work of yours and feel as great an interest in it as in my own works-in brief, I honor and love you."


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Along with Haydn's symphonies, Cherubini's overtures were among the most frequently performed pieces in Vienna in the first decade of the nineteenth century. When walking through the woods with Beethoven one day in 1817, the English composer Cipriani Potter asked him: Apart from yourself, who do you consider the greatest living composer? Beethoven answered, "Cherubini." He had earlier proclaimed Cherubini "Europe's foremost dramatic composer." And in 1823 he wrote to Cherubini that, "I am enraptured whenever I hear a new work of yours and feel as great an interest in it as in my own works-in brief, I honor and love you."


Thanks Rick! Here's where Beethoven mentions a specific work: "Among all the composers alive Cherubini is the most worthy of respect. I am in complete agreement, too, with his conception of the 'Requiem,' and if ever I come to write one I shall take note of many things." (Seyfried, reported to Thayer)


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

stomanek said:


> he admired their devotion
> 
> not necessarily their compositions


There's a paper on this by Warren Kirkendale called "Old Roads to New Ideas in The Missa Solemnis" which I'd quite like to read, I hope someone can post a link to it.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Well, Beethoven respected Mozart enough to write a dazzlingly great cadenza for Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto in D minor.

A fine tribute!!!


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Thanks Rick! Here's where Beethoven mentions a specific work: "Among all the composers alive Cherubini is the most worthy of respect. I am in complete agreement, too, with his conception of the 'Requiem,' and if ever I come to write one I shall take note of many things." (Seyfried, reported to Thayer)


I must listen to Cherubini's overtures and requiem

I will probably be disappointed


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

stomanek said:


> I must listen to Cherubini's overtures and requiem
> 
> I will probably be disappointed


Try his other Masses too! (sorry, off topic) Why disappointed?


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Try his other Masses too! (sorry, off topic) *Why disappointed?*


because every time a fan of a minor composer comes onto the board and says something like:

wow! Bocherini's quintets - better than Mozart's - have a listen!!!

or

Clementi - amazing composer! - piano sonatas underrated - genius! try: (you tube link)

you get the idea - I have yet to be impressed with claims made on behalf of composers more or less forgotten by posterity

still - I will try Cherubini.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Josquin13 said:


> Beethoven also greatly admired the "devotion to the divine" of the "old church composers", but frustratingly he didn't name any names.


In 1809 Beethoven wrote "In the old church modes the devotion is divine… and God let me express it someday." When he began work on the 'Missa Solemnis' Beethoven noted his intention: "In order to write true church music- look for all the plainchants of the monks." From his notes and sketches it's clear that he regarded the "Gregorian" modes primarily as the means of religious expression. Gregorian melodies were often used in the Mass throughout the 18th century, but by Beethoven's time they were comparatively rare. One composer who still used them extensively is Michael Haydn, who at that time was the most popular composer of sacred music in Austria. It's very likely that Beethoven knew Haydn's a capella Masses for Advent and Lent.

The theoretical underpinning for the choice of various modes used in 'Missa Solemnis' appears to have been Zarlino's 'Istitutioni harmoniche' of 1558 which Beethoven consulted during this time. According to Zarlino, the modes possessed various physical, moral, and spiritual powers. To cite one example, Beethoven chose the Dorian, the preserver of chastity according to Zarlino, when he wanted to allude to the mystery of the Immaculate Conception. Beethoven also drew on Zarlino in his other modal composition, the slow movement of the string quartet Op. 132, where he matches Zarlino's description of the Lydian mode (a remedy for fatigue of the body and soul) with the idea he wants to express: "Sacred song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Divinity in the Lydian mode".


----------



## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

stomanek said:


> because every time a fan of a minor composer comes onto the board and says something like:
> 
> wow! Bocherini's quintets - better than Mozart's - have a listen!!!
> 
> ...


I'm not going to call either Cherubini or Clementi better than Mozart, but they're both great, and neither were forgotten by posterity. Both e.g. are placed in *bold* in Wikipedia's massive list.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> In 1809 Beethoven wrote "In the old church modes the devotion is divine… and God let me express it someday." When he began work on the 'Missa Solemnis' Beethoven noted his intention: "In order to write true church music- look for all the plainchants of the monks." ...


More: "Pure church music ought to be performed by voices only, except a 'Gloria,' or some similar text. For this reason I prefer Palestrina; but it is folly to imitate him without having his genius and religious views; it would be difficult, if not impossible, too, for the singers of today to sing his long notes in a sustained and pure manner." (To Freudenberg, in 1824)


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

AeolianStrains said:


> I'm not going to call either Cherubini or Clementi better than Mozart, but they're both great, and neither were forgotten by posterity. Both e.g. are placed in *bold* in Wikipedia's massive list.


Yes I would think that in a list of 1000 classical era composers - of 30 or so bolded - Cherubini and Clementi should be bolded.

They rarely get a mention on TC or appear in any of the polls and one rarely sees them in the concert hall, but I suppose that doesnt mean much.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

stomanek said:


> Yes I would think that in a list of 1000 classical era composers - of 30 or so bolded - Cherubini and Clementi should be bolded.


Funny Cherubini story - betcha didn't know there were any, right? In early 1805, reading of Haydn's passing, Cherubini wrote his _Dirge on the Death of Joseph Haydn_. But it soon became apparent that his newspaper was in error, and Haydn still lived. He had all printed copies destroyed and allowed a performance only a few years later, when Haydn actually kicked the bucket.

There was no need, even then, to depend on the Internet for fake celebrity death reports!


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Another Cherubini story- Cherubini was present at a concert where the overture to his opera 'L'Hôtellerie portugaise' was sandwiched between two of Beethoven's works. Just before the concert began Cherubini turned anxiously to the friend that accompanied him, "Look what they've done. I'm going to appear a very small boy."


----------



## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Sorry, I must have read some bad information on the internet, or my memory is faulty. So, it was Cramer, not Ries. I stand corrected, thanks Rick & KenOC.



DeepR said:


> Which pieces by Handel made Beethoven such an admirer? Is there any information on this?
> Sorry to go a little off topic.


I don't think it's so 'off topic' considering that Mozart was similarly a great lover of Handel's music, as was his friend Baron Van Swieten, and their aristocratic circle--who enjoyed private concerts of Handel oratorios (via performing editions by Mozart in certain cases--see below); friends that to some extent would become Beethoven's circle during his early years in Vienna. Of course, F.J. Haydn was similarly influenced by the Handelian model, in "The Creation" and "The Seasons"--which Van Swieten likewise commissioned. So, Handel was a composer that Mozart's circle greatly esteemed (& is it only a coincidence that Beethoven did too?).

The Beethoven works where I hear the strongest Handel influence are the "Consecration of the House" Overture, the 7th Symphony (especially in the 2nd movement, which is influenced by a Handel Sarabande--see link below), and in Beethoven's Piano Sonata, Op. 54, especially the Allegretto movement, in relation to the Courante of Handel's F minor Keyboard Suite, HMV 433. As to which Handel works Beethoven was studying at the time, except for the Keyboard Suites, it's hard to say. But Beethoven likely got to know some of Handel's Oratorios through Van Swieten during his early years in Vienna, as Mozart had done before him, and we know for certain that Beethoven was again studying Handel's scores late in life, as Ken's quotes establish. (Edit--in addition, Rick's quote above suggests that Beethoven knew and greatly admired Handel's "Messiah".) Since it's known that Van Swieten devoted much of his energy during the 1770s towards acquiring as many published Handel scores as he could--through an English contact--we can imagine that Van Swieten's musical library contained a great many important Handel scores (to the benefit of Mozart, and almost certainly Beethoven too).

Therefore, presumably Beethoven got to know a variety of Handel works through Van Swieten, & perhaps Mozart's performing editions of the "Messiah" (1789), "Acis and Galatea" (1788), "Ode for St. Cecilia" & "Alexander's Feast" (1790) as well, which Mozart had prepared for Van Swieten. Van Swieten also introduced Vienna to Handel Oratorios through an annual oratorio series, given to benefit the Tonkunstler Society, a musical charity--beginning with "Judas Maccabaeus" in 1779, and including Mozart's version of "Messiah" in 1789, etc., and therefore, Beethoven may have heard various Handel Oratorios at these charity concerts, possibly as early as 1787, during his 1st visit to Vienna, & later in the 1790s, onwards. Also, considering that Mozart played Handel's Keyboard Suites and Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier "exclusively" at Van Swieten's house, as he told his father in a letter, presumably Beethoven did too.

Personally, I suspect that Beethoven knew Handel's "Samson", since Handel's use of brass & percussion in "Samson" strikes me as quite similar to how Beethoven uses brass and percussion throughout his 9 Symphonies. But I can't prove it. I'd also bet that Beethoven knew the "Water Music Suites 1-3" as well.

Conductor Jos Van Immerseel astutely couples the Handel influenced "Consecration of the House" Overture and Symphony No. 7 on the same disc. To my ears, Beethoven's loud, dominant use of horns in the 7th Symphony is very similar to the rustic character of Handel's raucous horns (such as in the Water Music Suites)--but only if the old, valveless Viennese horns are used, as in Anima Eterna's recording of the 7th, and so long as the conductor doesn't temper the horns (which I don't think you can do with the valveless horns). In addition, there's an obvious connection between the following Sarabande from Handel's Keyboard Suite HWV 437 (used as the theme in Stanley Kubrick's film, Barry Lyndon) and the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th:

Handel Sarabande:






Beethoven Symphony No. 7, 2nd movement:





"Consecration of the House" Overture:





Symphony No. 7:





Here's Handel's Water Music, performed on valveless horns by Ensemble Zefiro:





While I'm speculating on a Beethoven/Samson connection, I'd also bet that Beethoven admired the "Awake the trumpet's lofty sound" section in Samson, which as I said, to my ears exhibits the same kind of prominent display of brass and percussion that we find throughout the 9 Symphonies (especially in tandem with the winds, and in the 9th Symphony likewise with a chorus); though, of course, Beethoven could have found this model in other Handel choral & instrumental works, as well:






Here too are links to Alfred Brendel playing the Piano Sonata, Op. 54, along with two different interpretations of Handel's F minor Keyboard Suite by pianists Ragna Schirmer & Sviatoslav Richter, and an essay that discusses the strong rhythmic influence of the Courante from the F minor Suite on Beethoven's Allegretto movement in his Op. 54:






Ragna Schirmer:





Sviatoslav Richter:





http://www.channanwillner.com/pdf/beethoven-handel.pdf

I would imagine a whole book could be written on Mozart's influence on various Beethoven's works, including Mozart's example of studying & orchestrating fugues from Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, which Beethoven followed when he scribbled fugues from Bach's WTC into his notebooks while composing the Late String Quartets.


----------

