# Indian classical music: Some help please



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm fond of Indian classical music and have several recordings, new and old, that I enjoy a lot. But my appreciation is very superficial. I want to learn more, but everything on the web seems either too vague or else impenetrable, like this:

"Murki: This is a fast ornamentation around the principal note and consists of a number of _swaras_. It refers to a short, sharp figure of two or three notes so uttered that it occurs within a short span of time, wrapped around the central note. It can be described as quivering notes, including microtones. When a series of _Murkis _are performed in quick succession, they lead to the _Zam-Zama_, which is like a spiraling zigzag _Tan_."

Can anybody recommend a good site for learning, preferably with recorded examples? TIA!


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

This site is an excellent resource for the kind of information you're seeking (though you might find it slightly biased towards the percussion side of things). http://chandrakantha.com

I can't think of a site that's more likely to have explanations and definitions that can actually be understood by the average non-Indian or layperson. (I DID know of a couple of others which provided good, relatively accessible information but the links seem to have died since I last used them.)

To glean anything much from the wonderful extract you just posted, I think someone would probably need to be well enough versed in the tradition that the definition iteself would be pretty much superfluous. Apparently this rather salient likelihood doesn't occur to the people who post these detailed but non-explaining explanations, that require you to meander through a bewildering maze of equally hermetic cross-references, in the hope of eventually finding a definition or two that are fundamental enough to grasp anything solid at all with. A lot of Indian music information available in English seems to take this obscurantist approach that combines explanatory vagueness with undefined technical terms. I really do wish the people who are evidently so keen to share their musical knowledge would make an effort to write a bit more clearly; it makes this fascinatingly rich musical tradition so much harder for newcomers to understand than it really needs to be.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Many thanks Orpheus! That site looks great. I have my work cut out for tomorrow, at least.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-sangeet/34271-indian-dhun-glossary-indian-musical-terms.html

While this is something, it has that insularity already mentioned, i.e. nowhere in the definition of Raga does it help a westerner understand that the various 'moods' or attributes are attached to different scales, modes, or mixed scales and modes!

I think the Wiki article might actually be a full thumbnail which might too be of some basic help.
It is probably the 'Carnatic' music which most interests you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_music#Classical_music

This music is all about line and ornamented line. In Sitar traidition, the Alap is an introduction, the simple laying out of the scale (rag) and too, in an improvised tradition where a piece may go on for hours, it is the Indian musician's 'warm up' - i.e. they never expect to start with both guns blazing with pyrotechnical display.

Of the great classical sitarists, I understand that Nikhil Banerjee was more 'purely' classical, and (Southern or Northern Indian tradition, I recall not which) is considered more elegant and refined. Now deceased, he remains as legendary (and beloved) as might a Richter, Horowitz, or other western performer. There are a number of available links on youtube, where some recordings are more extended Rags, duration of forty minutes or longer.

I know even less about the as highly developed vocal traditions :-/

It is to be hoped someone knows of a good reference for us Ferengi*

Nikhil Banerjee:
Raga Manomanjari; Live in Berkeley 1968 (1'22'01'') 




Raga Hemant Live in Amsterdam 1970 (1'00'01'')




Raga Sindhura & Adana (53'18'')





***_N.B for the Star Trek generation and Trekkies_ ~ *Ferengi: once commonplace in ordinary English, meaning "Foreigner", from Chinese pidgin.*


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks PetrB. Must say that I found Wiki less than helpful and hopefully your link will be better. Lately I have been enjoying Debashish Bhattacharya, who plays on a highly modified Western guitar with a bunch of extra strings (extension and sympathetic) as a lap-held slide guitar. I have several recordings of Bannerjee, also Ali Akbar Khan and of course Ravi Shankar. All very good stuff, needless to say. And yes, the players tend to hold off the big guns for quite a while, counseling us to patience!

Your comments are of course helpful.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I have these suggestions, although they are not websites.

Book: Indian Rhythms for Drumset by Pete Lockett (about $15 used)
CD: The Raga Guide (Nimbus) (about $25 used, includes book), if you really want to hear examples

Are you rich?
Raga: An Interactive Guide Into Indian Classical Music [CD-ROM] ($400 to $500)


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Try the classic film, "The Music Room," by acclaimed Bengali director Satyajit Ray.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Orpheus said:


> This site is an excellent resource for the kind of information you're seeking (though you might find it slightly biased towards the percussion side of things). http://chandrakantha.com
> 
> I can't think of a site that's more likely to have explanations and definitions that can actually be understood by the average non-Indian or layperson. (I DID know of a couple of others which provided good, relatively accessible information but the links seem to have died since I last used them.)
> 
> To glean anything much from the wonderful extract you just posted, I think someone would probably need to be well enough versed in the tradition that the definition iteself would be pretty much superfluous. Apparently this rather salient likelihood doesn't occur to the people who post these detailed but non-explaining explanations, that require you to meander through a bewildering maze of equally hermetic cross-references, in the hope of eventually finding a definition or two that are fundamental enough to grasp anything solid at all with. A lot of Indian music information available in English seems to take this obscurantist approach that combines explanatory vagueness with undefined technical terms. I really do wish the people who are evidently so keen to share their musical knowledge would make an effort to write a bit more clearly; it makes this fascinatingly rich musical tradition so much harder for newcomers to understand than it really needs to be.


A very good site for explaining Indian music theory to those who are more familiar with Western music theory. It explains well how Indian music theory, in it's own way, mirrors our concept of modality.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Thanks PetrB. Must say that I found Wiki less than helpful and hopefully your link will be better. Lately I have been enjoying Debashish Bhattacharya, who plays on a highly modified Western guitar with a bunch of extra strings (extension and sympathetic) as a lap-held slide guitar. I have several recordings of Bannerjee, also Ali Akbar Khan and of course Ravi Shankar. All very good stuff, needless to say. And yes, the players tend to hold off the big guns for quite a while, counseling us to patience!
> 
> Your comments are of course helpful.


I'm not sure what you mean by "counseling us to patience", because what you are mentioning there has simply to do with the form of a rag, and there is more than one climax in a rag, typically.

Also, I would highly recommend visiting this site that surveys the history of ICM (Indian classical music): http://www.itcsra.org/sra_hcm/sra_hcm_chrono/sra_hcm_chrono_index.html



> *The Indus Valley civilization declined around the the first half of the 2nd millennium BC, giving way to Vedic civilization. An important aspect of Vedic religious life was the bard-priest who composed hymns, in praise of the gods, to be sung or chanted at sacrifices. This tradition continued until a sizable body of oral religious poetry had been composed.
> 
> This body of chanted poetry grew to massive proportions, and the best of the poems were compiled as an anthology called Rigveda, which was then canonized. The hymns of the Rigveda, the oldest Veda, are addressed to the elements of nature personified as deities, and are prayers for protection from calamities and for attainment of prosperity - material as well as spiritual.*
> 
> ...


My favorite rag, raga bihag, whose theme is love (it's about an affair between gods): 



 Also, if you were just to look it up, you would find a thread on ICM that I started, which probably has plenty of material you'd be interested in, mainly the references to certain performances and artists.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

This appears to be a very useful thread. I have been intrigued by Indian music, but not yet taken the plunge. Many thanks for your respective contributions.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks to all! Here's a list of sites recommended here and on another forum:

Chandra & David's Homepage
http://chandrakantha.com

Deepak Raja's world of Hindustani Music 
http://swaratala.blogspot.com/

Indian Dhun: Glossary of Indian Musical Terms
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-sangeet/34271-indian-dhun-glossary-indian-musical-terms.html
Indian Music Glossary
http://www.culturalindia.net/indian-music/music-glossary.html

Intricacies of Indian Classical Music 
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_raga/sra_raga_index.asp

Introduction to Raaga Yaman





Introduction to Swaras In Indian Classical Music 1





The two YouTube videos at the end are a great start and immediately cleared up some of my confusion.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

crmoorhead said:


> I have been intrigued by Indian music, but not yet taken the plunge. Many thanks for your respective contributions.


If you want to put your toe in the water, I'd recommend this album. A very good variety of styles and instruments, mostly fairly short ragas and other pieces, and of the highest quality.










http://www.amazon.com/Festival-Indi...352936974&sr=1-1&keywords=festival+from+india


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

KenOC said:


> If you want to put your toe in the water, I'd recommend this album. A very good variety of styles and instruments, mostly fairly short ragas and other pieces, and of the highest quality.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Festival-Indi...352936974&sr=1-1&keywords=festival+from+india


Much appreciated, thanks!  I did notice that there is an EMI boxed set of Ravi Shenkar available via amazon.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I didn't have time to go into much detail about "The Music Room," and I'm not sure if KenOC has seen it, but that film really opened my eyes to just how interesting and powerful indian classical music can be. Incredible Bengali music of top notch musicians was integrated into the soundtrack of that music and also featured in performances that were central to the movie's plot, but it also gave you a sense of how much the main character loved and appreciated music.


As an aside, I was so inspired by that film last year that I contacted a local tabla instructor. I delicately researched the Indian instruments I could possibly study, and found it hard to decide but due to my limited percussion background(new things are exciting) and the fact that the tabla just jived with me, I had that all staked out. I felt like a flakey person when I realized that I was being stretched too thin with all my activities and chickened out. My goals and obligations are somewhat different now so perhaps its once again an attractive possibility!


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## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

Lukecash12 said:


> My favorite rag, raga bihag, whose theme is love (it's about an affair between gods):
> 
> 
> 
> .


Great music! It wouldn't be as enjoyable if you didn't tell us what it is about. Thank you!:tiphat:


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

This would be a good beginning for anyone who starting to explore Indian Classical Music.









If you want to get hooked quickly, get any recording of Vilayat Khan playing Raga Darbari, or just anything by Vilayat Khan.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> This would be a good beginning for anyone who starting to explore Indian Classical Music.
> 
> View attachment 9907
> 
> ...


It's funny that you mention Vilayat Khan, because I was thinking to myself about some different interpretations of rag bihag that I liked better, and Ustad Vilayat Khan's is my favorite.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> I didn't have time to go into much detail about "The Music Room," and I'm not sure if KenOC has seen it, but that film really opened my eyes to just how interesting and powerful indian classical music can be. Incredible Bengali music of top notch musicians was integrated into the soundtrack of that music and also featured in performances that were central to the movie's plot, but it also gave you a sense of how much the main character loved and appreciated music.


Here is JALSAGHAR ("The Music Room") on YouTube, but with no English subtitles...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I didn't have time to go into much detail about "The Music Room," and I'm not sure if KenOC has seen it, but that film really opened my eyes to just how interesting and powerful indian classical music can be.


I haven't seen it or even heard of it. But I just ordered it! Many thanks for this recommendation.

I have Ray's Apu Trilogy, but this one is new to me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Also, the plastic-comb book _*Ragopedia: Exotic Scales of North India,*_ and also an accompanying CD.


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## CounterpointFan (Jan 12, 2013)

This might be a bit late, but if any of you is curious about how Indian Raagas can be seamlessly blended with western orchestration, I strongly recommend the works of Ilayairaja. He is an Indian composer who mainly worked within the framework of film music (both songs and background scores). In my opinion, this was mainly because at the time (1970s) it was probably the best way to gain a wider audience for his works. I don't think there has ever been another person who possessed a complete mastery of several completely different forms of music including Indian (both South Indian Carnatic, North Indian Hindustani and folk traditions), Western classical and Jazz. He is a legend in the southern part of India and is acknowledged as a total genius. These two songs are a good start to get into his compositions. If this floats anyone's boat, I can post more recommendations.

This is a "song", so bear with the Tamil lyrics:






An instrumental rendition of a famous composition of his in a beautiful Raaga called Kaapi:


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## kadaif (Oct 8, 2013)

No better place, AFAIK

http://www.parrikar.org/vault/
(click on "The Ragas of Hindustani Music". Great in-depth articles on ragas and theory)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here are some links on Indian music for people who want to explore it a bit.

Chandra & David's Homepage
http://chandrakantha.com
Deepak Raja's world of Hindustani Music 
http://swaratala.blogspot.com/
Indian Dhun: Glossary of Indian Musical Terms
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-sangeet/34271-indian-dhun-glossary-indian-musical-terms.html
Indian Music Glossary
http://www.culturalindia.net/indian-music/music-glossary.html
Intricacies of Indian Classical Music 
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_raga/sra_raga_index.asp
Introduction to Raaga Yaman




Introduction to Swaras In Indian Classical Music 1




Ravi Shankar on Appreciation of Indian Classical Music
http://www.ravishankar.org/indian_music.html
Tabla solo with discussion


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

This is a digression, but I thought I'd recommend Satyajit Ray's "The Music Room" on this thread to anyone who might be interested in a good movie featuring Indian classical music:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalsaghar

Thanks for all the links on this thread--I look forward to digging in.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I'm so glad people here are interested in Indian classical music. I am from India but am only a novice, I probably know more about western music than Indian music (I am Indian). That is probably because Indian music is more esoteric, it never had a written tradition, only a vocal one. The internet is great, but if you really love this music, try finding a guru (teacher) and try learning an instrument. You might really enjoy it!

By the way, I will share my favourite raga, Hameer, played in a live performance by Vilayat Khan in the 90s.


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