# national influence, what does it mean?



## ehudso (Sep 1, 2016)

I've heard that due to the rise of nationalism in the 19th-18th, some composers such as brahms, Mussorgsky, liszt, siblius and many more, mixed their national music with their creations 
siblius- finnish motives
lizst- hungarian motives 
mussorgsky- russian motives 
and so on
my question is, how can i detect those elements, in what way they are diffrent?
thanks


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

You really can't unless you have a pre-existing familiarity with the (especially) folk musics of a particular culture. Or are willing to extrapolate from the music these composers and others wrote -- which is always an iffy, if exciting, proposition. 

(i.e. if you listen to Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, and Kodaly's Dances of Galanta, and Bartok's Dance Suite, you can develop a sense of some qualities of Hungarian folk music.)


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

National influence can take a number of different forms, including rhythmic, melodic, and harmonic.

Of course, the national character can be absolutely overt and obvious (which often verges on or enters the realm of kitsch):





Or it can be sublimated into the aesthetic of a piece:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Nationalism doesn't always involve incorporation of indigenous musical themes or styles. Sibelius didn't use Finnish folk music (although he did listen to it), but our idea of "Nordic" classical music, perceptible not only in his music but in that of later Finnish and Scandinavian composers he influenced, was pretty largely his personal invention. His works are often programmatic, though, and their titles refer to aspects of his Finnish heritage. 

Liszt's and Brahms' Hungarian-themed works (a small portion of their output) are based not on folk music but on a gypsy style popular in much of central Europe, whereas Bartok, not explicitly a nationalist, turned to actual Hungarian folk music for its interesting modal qualities which contributed to the distinctive sound of his music. Smetana and Dvorak are considered Czech nationalists, but their music is more related to German Romanticism than to indigenous Bohemian sources, which are most noticeable in their use of native dance rhythms. When Russians wanted to "sound Russian," they often looked eastward and used "oriental" scales, as well as folk tunes and Russian Orthodox liturgical music. Vaughan Williams, like Bartok, went out looking for folk melodies, and typically British melodic and harmonic qualities became an integral part of his style. 

The older German classical tradition had long been clearly rooted in indigenous music and poetry, so despite their very German qualities we tend not to think of Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler - and certainly not the Second Viennese School - as nationalistic. For many countries trying to establish their political and cultural identity in the late 19th century and into the 20th, finding indigenous sources of inspiration was a way of distinguishing their music from the dominant German styles of Wagner and Brahms. Tchaikovsky, who sounds pretty Russian to us, was thought not Russian enough by some of his compatriots.

The different qualities of national styles become more and more apparent with longer acquaintance. Learning to detect them - and trying to guess the nationalities of composers by the sound of their music - is one of the pleasures of classical music listening.


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