# The best of Brahms?



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Hello TC community,

I am a great fan of Mozart but I decide to move on to Romantic Era now. I listened to Brahms Violin Concerto last month and found him to be a great melodist and a genius in terms of complexity in composition. I have also listened to his Symphony No. 1 and No. 4 but I still need some time to understand these two compositions better. Do you have any other recommendations? I want more orchestral and symphonic music than chamber music, though I know he is very good at chamber. Thanks!

KevinW


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Hungarian Dances. An immediate hit. You'll love them. Try any one of these.....


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

His orchestral output is relatively small compared to his chamber, piano, and lieder output unless you include choral works too.

If you enjoyed his Violin Concerto, check out his piano concertos (particularly the 2nd). Also Symphony no. 2 is the most immediately accessible of his symphonies, and Symphony no. 3 has the famous slow movement. There's also the Requiem, Nanie, Alto Rhapsody, Schicksalslied, and Gesang der Parzen for orchestral choral works.

Try searching down this list to help prioritize your listening:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18t_9MHZTENbmYdezAAj4LRM0-Eak_MYO1HssZW2FX1U/edit


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Academic Festival Overture..


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Piano Concerto 1


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Academic Festival Overture..


That is where the melody of my school song came from...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Another vote for the piano concertos. Timings and speed can be very different in various recordings, giving a lighter or more massive effect in the music. I typically prefer around 45 minutes for each concerto, or less.

Then the chamber music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KevinW said:


> Hello TC community,
> 
> I am a great fan of Mozart but I decide to move on to Romantic Era now. I listened to Brahms Violin Concerto last month and found him to be a great melodist and a genius in terms of complexity in composition. I have also listened to his Symphony No. 1 and No. 4 but I still need some time to understand these two compositions better. Do you have any other recommendations? I want more orchestral and symphonic music than chamber music, though I know he is very good at chamber. Thanks!
> 
> KevinW


Schoenberg's transcription for orchestra of Brahms's F minor piano quartet - try to hear the Robert Craft performance.

Luciano Berio's transcription of the op 120 cello sonata

Eric Leinsdorf's transcriptions of the organ preludes op 122.

Arguably the four symphonies make a cycle - you should at least listen to the second in addition to 1 and 4.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Symphony No.3
Requiem


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## Andante Largo (Apr 23, 2020)

From orchestral works:
Symphony No. 2 & No. 3
Serenade No. 1 & No. 2

From chamber works:
String Sextet No. 1 & No. 2
String Quintet No. 1 & No. 2


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

For me the best of Brahms are his *chamber works*:

cello sonatas
violin sonatas
clarinet sonatas, trio, and quintet
piano trios, quartets, and quintets
string quartets, quintets, and sextets
horn trio


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I started Brahms the the piano concerto 2 played by Serkin with Ormandy rec 1955. Even though I have many different recordings now including Serkin’s remake with Szell I still find that fiery account takes some beating, The main point about Brahms is not to play too slowly. He himself did not play longeurs.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Schoenberg's transcription for orchestra of Brahms's F minor piano quartet - try to hear the Robert Craft performance.


That is awesome!! Great recording!!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I find Brahms' Double Concerto to be as satisfying as any of his other concertos. Try it and see what you think and feel.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Brahms is closest to my heart. The violin concerto is my favorite work. Excellent versions by Krebbers (with Haitink), Perlman (with Giulini), and Oistrakh (with either Klemperer or Szell). And for the 4th symphony I recommend Carlos Kleiber.

My favorite of his symphonies is the lush 3rd, with its gorgeous 3rd movement Allegretto. Abbado and the Berlin PO did the best job of bringing out the lushness in beautiful sound. Their entire symphony set is excellent.










As mentioned, the two piano concertos are both wonderful. The 1st is my favorite Brahms work after the Violin Concerto. Gilels/Jochum is a justly famous version, with a big, romantic sound that sweeps you away.










The Requiem (or Ein Deutsches Requiem) is another great work. Beautiful writing for choir and orchestra. Gardiner's recording does an excellent job of keeping things moving while molding the phrases very affectionately.










Most fundamental to Brahms is the piano, and his solo piano works are gorgeous. This Radu Lupu album makes an excellent introduction. The op. 117 intermezzi are my favorites.










Finally, like you said Brahms is known for great chamber writing. His most famous work is the beautifully autumnal Clarinet Quintet, played and recorded wonderfully in the De Peyer/Melos version.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Brahms didn't exactly write a massive amount for orchestra so you may as well investigate the lot. I haven't included orchestral compositions which include singers/choir or arrangements of other works made by Brahms himself or anyone else.

Symphony no.1 in C-minor op.68 (1854-76):
Symphony no.2 in D op.73 (1877):
Symphony no.3 in F op.90 (1883):
Symphony no.4 in E minor	op.98 (1884-85):

_Serenade no.1_ in D op.11 (1857-58 - rev. by 1859):	
_Serenade no.2_ in A op.16 (1858-59 - rev. 1875):

_Academic Festival Overture_ op.80 (1880):
_Tragic Overture_ op.81 (1880):

_Variations on a Theme by Haydn_ [_Saint Anthony Variations_] op.56a (1873):

Piano Concerto no.1 in D-minor (1854-58):
Piano Concerto no.2 in B-flat op.83 (1878-81):
Violin Concerto in D op.77 (1878):
Concerto in A-minor for violin, cello and orchestra op.102 (1887):


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

elgars ghost said:


> Brahms didn't exactly write a massive amount for orchestra so you may as well investigate the lot. I haven't included orchestral compositions which include singers/choir or arrangements of other works made by Brahms himself or anyone else.
> 
> Symphony no.1 in C-minor op.68 (1854-76):
> Symphony no.2 in D op.73 (1877):
> ...


Really, you can't go wrong with any of these pieces.

The transcriptions mentioned by Mandryka - Schoenberg's orchestration of the G minor quartet and Berio's of the F minor clarinet sonata - are also quite good, if you're into that kind of thing.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I find Brahms' Double Concerto to be as satisfying as any of his other concertos. Try it and see what you think and feel.


I agree with this. A good example of when to ignore the critics.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I think the best advice I can give you when it comes to appreciating Brahms is not what to listen _to_ - speaking for myself, all of his major works exceed expectations - but what to listen _for_. As someone coming from Baroque and Classical music you will likely resonate with Brahms's (unique) employment of traditional forms and compositional devices. I would suggest listening for the following:

The development of musical cells, or motifs (Brahms was a progenitor of a technique which Schoenberg called "developing variation", which can be heard quite prominently in the late piano works such as this or this.

The overarching contours of the large-scale forms, and the ebb-and-flow induced by the dichotomy of expression and "restraint". The first movement of the first piano concerto is one of Brahms's more dramatic works (his youthful works tend to be more extraverted than his later ones), and so I think it should be a good starting place for recognizing and appreciating this balance.

Brahms's way of playing with time: syncopation, asymmetrical phrases, 2-against-3 rhythms & hemiolas, and even the occasional use of odd time signatures.

Let me know if you want me to elaborate on any of this or provide examples; I'd be more than happy to.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

If you enjoy Brahms, get into Dvorak next. They were besties.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)




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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Also the VC


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Don't forget his songs .


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Excellent points made throughout this thread. I'll add only: 

Though I love the symphonies and concerti greatly, especially for their sense of profundity and depth, the one Brahms orchestral work which has haunted me since I first heard it, mainly for its sheer optimistic sense of joy and lightness of heart, is the First Serenade for Orchestra. The Second Serenade never impacted me at all (and I likely owe it another listen just to see if I may have been mistaken all these years), but the First sank into my consciousness upon first hearing and has never left. If that First Serenade is new to you, give it a listen. It may go on to haunt your consciousness, too.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> Excellent points made throughout this thread. I'll add only:
> 
> Though I love the symphonies and concerti greatly, especially for their sense of profundity and depth, the one Brahms orchestral work which has haunted me since I first heard it, mainly for its sheer optimistic sense of joy and lightness of heart, is the First Serenade for Orchestra. The Second Serenade never impacted me at all (and I likely owe it another listen just to see if I may have been mistaken all these years), but the First sank into my consciousness upon first hearing and has never left. If that First Serenade is new to you, give it a listen. It may go on to haunt your consciousness, too.


Thanks, I will try right now.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

A German Requiem
Clarinet Quintet
The four symphonies esp. No. 4
Piano Concerto no. 2
Violin Concerto
Piano Concerto no. 1
Double Concerto
Both String Quintets
Cello Sonata No. 1
Piano Quintet
Piano Trio no. 1
Both String Sextets
Horn Trio
Violin Sonata no. 3
Both Clarinet Sonatas
Hungarian Dances
Variations on a Theme By Handel
Variations on a Theme By Haydn
Piano Sonata no. 3
Late Piano Pieces, Op. 116 to 119
Paganini Variations
Piano Trio no. 3
Four Serious Songs
Tragic Overture
Serenade no. 1
Academic Festival Overture
Brahms' Piano Arrangememt of Bach's Chaccone


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

My personal Best of Brahms (6/6 on the artrockometer)*:

Brahms - A German Requiem
Brahms - Clarinet Quintet
Brahms - Piano Quartet No. 1
Brahms - Piano Quartet No. 3
Brahms - String Quintet No. 1
Brahms - String Sextet No. 2
Brahms - Symphony No. 3
Brahms - Symphony No. 4
Brahms - Violin Concerto

But really, there is hardly a dud in his oeuvre. My #3 composer.


* copy/paste from the complete list, too lazy to delete the Brahms every line.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Here is the first Serious Song arranged for a symphonic band:


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I like Bernstein's version of the Tragic Overture:


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> My personal Best of Brahms (6/6 on the artrockometer)*:
> 
> Brahms - A German Requiem
> Brahms - Clarinet Quintet
> ...


Your first is Bach--who is your second favorite?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

KevinW said:


> That is where the melody of my school song came from...


The melodies were 19th century German student songs before Brahms used for the ouverture, the last one at the climax the most famous of all "Gaudeamus igitur, iuvenes dum sumus" (Let's be merry as long as we are young).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudeamus_igitur

There are two or three more but the quick one in the bassoon I never heard of except in that ouverture while the soft slow one in the trumpets was also famous as a general patriotic song with a different text and several more versions in different languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_hatten_gebauet_ein_stattliches_Haus


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

KevinW said:


> Your first is Bach--who is your second favorite?


Mahler. Schubert and Shostakovich complete the top 5.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I agree with this. A good example of when to ignore the critics.


I prefer the Second Piano Concerto and the Violin Concerto to the Double Concerto. The latter is not bad in any way; the two others are just that good.

IMO, Piano Concerto no. 1 is the weakest of Brahms' concertos-- though it's still a must-listen.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Piano concerto #1 is more than a bit rough around the edges but it is also one of the most emotional and daring of Brahms' works, his only early orchestral work besides the decidedly classicist/retro/smallish scale serenades.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I agree with this. A good example of when to ignore the critics.


...until you've made your own mind up. It's perfectly legit to agree with them (as I do) once you've had a listen for yourself. As others have said, this is NOT to call the Double Concerto a poor piece in any way, but a good few of us who love Brahms love his other concertos more.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Kreisler jr said:


> Piano concerto #1 is more than a bit rough around the edges but it is also one of the most emotional and daring of Brahms' works, his only early orchestral work besides the decidedly classicist/retro/smallish scale serenades.


I personally like its "roughness"; I find it refreshing.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> Mahler. Schubert and Shostakovich complete the top 5.


That's a nice four, lots of variety from Bach to Mahler to Schubert then Shostakovich. I must have missed your fifth name.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Brahms, like in the thread's topic.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> Brahms, like in the thread's topic.


Duh.  :lol:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Really, you can't go wrong with any of these pieces.
> 
> The transcriptions mentioned by Mandryka - Schoenberg's orchestration of the G minor quartet and *Berio's of the F minor clarinet sonata* - are also quite good, if you're into that kind of thing.


Although, listening to it again, I'm not a huge fan of the introductions he adds. The one for the second movement is fine (though unnecessary), the first one in poor taste. The orchestration is nice.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Animal the Drummer said:


> ...until you've made your own mind up. It's perfectly legit to agree with them (as I do) once you've had a listen for yourself. As others have said, this is NOT to call the Double Concerto a poor piece in any way, but a good few of us who love Brahms love his other concertos more.


Yes it's "perfectly legit". In the sense that it's "perfectly legit" to agree with flat-Earthers. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I second most of the recommendations. I have always enjoyed the Haydn Variations, as well - Harnoncourt's is a good one.

I do love Brahms. Many find a way into his orchestral music via Klemperer and I think his great recordings are excellent for those who are not sure about the works, wanting perhaps more strength and less warmth and lyricism. Klemperer's Brahms is (as you might expect) granitic. But in the end it is the warmth that I relate to most these days - Abbado is wonderful in giving us that.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Yes it's "perfectly legit". In the sense that it's "perfectly legit" to agree with flat-Earthers. :lol:


So your taste in Brahms concertos is better than that of "the critics" and this is objectively comparable to the fact that the Earth is round?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Yeah I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

ORigel said:


> (...)
> 
> IMO, Piano Concerto no. 1 is the weakest of Brahms' concertos-- though it's still a must-listen.


I knew an extremely experienced collector who liked all Brahms up to op.18; then things started to deterioate, he said, such as in the 1st Sextet op.18.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> I knew an extremely experienced collector who liked all Brahms up to op.18; then things started to deterioate, he said, such as in the 1st Sextet op.18.


I really can't stand early Brahms. But I know people feel the opposite and can't stand the later music. Brahms is the most divisive of all maistream classic FM type composers.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What do the Brahmsians here think of the Missa Canonica?


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

My top level Brahms favorites (minus individual rank):

Piano Trio #1 (1889 revision)
String Quintet #1
String Quintet #2
Piano Quartet #2
Clarinet Quintet
Symphony #2
Symphony #3
Violin Concerto
Double Concerto
Piano Concerto #1


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> What do the Brahmsians here think of the Missa Canonica?


I like the _Agnus Dei_. Brahms also must have liked it because he recycled some of it for his motet _Warum ist das Licht gegeben._


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I also like the _Agnus Dei_, and to a lesser extent the _Benedictus_. I regard it as a study work, but enjoyable nonetheless.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Brahms is not a particular favorite of mine, and there's loads I haven't heard, but I love the second piano concerto and the first piano quartet (especially in the Schoenberg orchestration). And it has the virtue of being true that the first piece that turned me on to classical music back in 2007 was the second movement of the first cello sonata:






The most recent thing that got me thinking "gosh, I should listen to more Brahms" was this disc of piano music recorded by Arcadi Volodos, who is one of my favorite pianists.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

John Zito said:


> Brahms is not a particular favorite of mine, and there's loads I haven't heard, but......
> The most recent thing that got me thinking "gosh, I should listen to more Brahms" was this disc of piano music recorded by Arcadi Volodos, who is one of my favorite pianists.












I'm reminded of this meme:


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Symphony No. 3 
Clarinet Quintet
Piano Sonata No. 3
Cello Sonata No. 1
Horn Trio Op. 40
Piano Concerto No. 2
Piano Trio No. 1
Intermezzo Op. 117
Violin Concerto


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## Michael122 (Sep 16, 2021)

The symphonies, always his symphonies.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

One thing about Brahms is he put quality above quantity. Every Brahms is good Brahms.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Late piano music, op 79 & 119 are my favorites

Best when he lets out the seams rather than monkeying around with classical forms


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> Piano concerto #1 is more than a bit rough around the edges but it is also one of the most emotional and daring of Brahms' works, his only early orchestral work besides the decidedly classicist/retro/smallish scale serenades.


Agreed. I hate to be snide, but how can anyone not like the Piano Concerto No. 1? The tutti opening is just gorgeous, with its mysterious sonority, and then the sublime, delicate entrance of the piano, and then from there the thundering drama mixed with poetic plaintiveness, and then the Adagio where time stands still in blissful contemplation, and the ferocious power of the Rondo....is it just not "cerebral" enough for some people?

.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The first piano concerto was at some times (and maybe still is) my favorite Brahms concerto. I don't like the canard about Brahms being often too inhibited and always making doubly sure that everything is worked out well in favor of expression (aka "monkeying around with classical forms"  ) but this is not entirely false for some works. But it is false for the d minor concerto.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Nothing to add except that the Brahms first piano concerto is the single piece of music to which I have probably spent the most time listening.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Agreed. I hate to be snide, but how can anyone not like the Piano Concerto No. 1? The tutti opening is just gorgeous, with its mysterious sonority, and then the sublime, delicate entrance of the piano, and then from there the thundering drama mixed with poetic plaintiveness, and then the Adagio where time stands still in blissful contemplation, and the ferocious power of the Rondo....is it just not "cerebral" enough for some people?


I will confess that I don't really like the first concerto, especially in comparison to the second. Whenever I guilt myself into listening to Gilels/Jochum in pursuit of what everyone else is hearing, I switch off before long. I feel the same way about...the violin concerto.

But obviously, folks that are newer to Brahms should definitely not go by me.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Gilels/Jochum is very stately; it might have its virtues (I eventually got rid of it and kept only the early Gilels/Reiner of #2) but youthful vigor isn't among them...
I'd also point out that the Violin concerto is rather different; for me it is the most mature and perfectionist of the 4. However, for me, all 4 are on a level that has been rarely matched (the best of Mozart, Beethoven, Prokofiev 2nd pc, Bartok and maybe a few more, such as Shostakovich 1st violin concerto). They are all very ambitious, among the most "symphonic" concertos out there but unlike e.g. Reger or Busoni they are not almost collapsing under their own symphonic weight.

Anyway, as they are overall not many pieces, I'd recommend all 4 concertos, symphonies and Haydn variations to any listener new to Brahms. The German Requiem is a piece some love to hate, so I'd be a bit more wary here. I'd recommend the shorter choral works, especially Alt-Rhapsodie, Schicksalslied and Nänie (Abbado/DG has them as filler for the symphonies or on a separate disc, there is also a very good disc with Davis/Bavarian SO).


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

John Zito said:


> I will confess that I don't really like the first concerto, especially in comparison to the second. Whenever I guilt myself into listening to Gilels/Jochum in pursuit of what everyone else is hearing, I switch off before long. I feel the same way about...the violin concerto.


Haha we must be whatever the opposite of kindred spirits is. The violin concerto and first piano concerto are my two favorite Brahms works by a mile. I used to sit in my dorm room in the dark listening to them both.

The Gilels/Jochum isn't youthful, but why should it be? They produce deep, beautiful, dark, mysterious sonority which is exactly what I want in this work. This isn't skippy music.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Here's a new variation: 

I like the PCs, no.1 before no.2; then the Double Concerto; I really dislike the Violin Concerto, and am not that fond of the symphonies ... 

Hopefully the OP is a quick learner, will notice the myriads of different/opposing views, and make conclusions according to his own experiences and taste ...


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Since you're asking for orchestral recordings, I'd most recommend conductor Eugen Jochum's recordings of the Four Symphonies. He did two sets--(1) an early set with the Berlin Philharmonic on DG, which has excellent mono sound, and (2) a second set with the London Philharmonic on EMI double fforte, which is a stereo analogue recording, and has better sound than the DG set. I started out with the EMI set, and treasure it, but both cycles are wonderful. (& by the way, the EMI set is available in the Jochum Icon box set, which is a terrific bargain for what you get in it: https://www.amazon.com/Eugen-Jochum...307997&sprefix=jochum+icon,fashion,231&sr=8-2)






I'd also recommend hearing Carlos Kleiber conduct the Vienna Philharmonic in the Symphony No. 4: 



.

Istvan Kertesz, Otto Klemperer, & Bruno Walter are three other conductors that excel in Brahms.

But you should know that Brahms didn't like the heavy approach that the German conductors of his day took to his symphonies, and told the young Pierre Monteux that he preferred the lighter (& presumbly more classical) approach of French conductors. So, you might also want to check out some of Monteux's Brahms, as well; however, Monteux was often better live than in the studio--by his own admission, & the sound on the live recordings can be variable. But Brahms was Monteux's favorite composer throughout his life, and I think he has something very special to say in this music. (Among other older French conductors, you might also want to check out Charles Munch's cycle with the Boston Symphony Orchestra.)

--Monteux, Symphony No. 4, BSO, live: 




Apart from Monteux's recordings, another conductor that takes a lighter, more classical approach to Brahms is Kurt Masur, whose Brahms conducting is, IMO, best exemplified by his Leipzig Gewandhaus account of Brahms "Variations on a Theme by Haydn", which, for me, is one of Brahms finest orchestral works (btw, Masur also recorded this work with the New York Philharmonic on Teldec):






I'd also recommend Leonard Bernstein's exciting DG account of Brahms Academic Festival Overture, although I don't normally recommend Bernstein's later DG recordings, which are seldom as good as his earlier Columbia/Sony recordings from the 1960s.






In addition, like others, I'd recommend the two Piano Concertos. Gilels/Jochum (1 & 2), Gilels/Reiner (#2), Richter/Leinsdorf(#2), R.Serkin/Szell (1 & 2), Fleisher/Szell (1&2) are all excellent among the older recordings, as are the various recordings by Wilhelm Backhaus, & among digital era recordings--if you want better sound, I'd most recommend Nelson Freire's recordings with Riccardo Chailly and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, as well as pianist Elizabeth Leonskaja's two recordings on Teldec (though Freire/Chailly are my top digital era choice, & I believe they can hold their own with any of the older recordings),

--Freire/Chailly, Nos. 1 & 2: 



--Richter/Leinsdorf--No. 2: 



--Gilels/Reiner--No. 2: 



--Leonskaja/Inbal--No. 1: 




Brahms German Requiem is likewise essential listening, & can be deeply moving in the concert hall. I'm not sure which is my top recording choice here, but I've liked Klemperer, Gardiner (period), Previn, Sir Colin Davis, Haitink, and Sawallisch in this music over the years.

And of course there is Brahms wonderful Violin Concerto, which you say you've already heard. (I like Oistrakh/Klemperer, Oistrakh/Szell, & Grumiaux/Beinum here.)

By the way, when you move onto other genres in Brahms opus, I'd strongly recommend that you don't miss the following works & recordings:

--String Quintets 1 & 2, played by the Boston Symphony Chamber Players, on the Nonesuch label (for me, this is one of the great Brahms chamber music recordings in the catalogue): 




--Violin Sonatas 1-3: Suk/Katchen, Grumiaux/Seebok, and David Oistrakh's various recordings with pianists Frieda Bauer & Svitoslav Richter are all excellent. I also like the more Romantic approaches by Christian Ferras in the second sonata, as well as Perlman/Ashkenazy and Zukerman/Barenboim. By the way, the 2nd movement of the Violin Sonata No. 1 was composed in response to the terrible tragic death of Brahms' young godson, Felix Schumann, who was a violin prodigy & the son of composer Robert Schumann. Brahms told the boy's mother, Clara Schumann, that he couldn't express what he felt in words, for her & her dying son, so he put his feelings into music,






--Four Ballades, for solo piano, played by Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli. (Emil Gilels & Arthur Rubinstein are excellent in the 4 Ballades, too.)






--Selected solo piano works, played by Dmitri Bashkirov, on Harmonia Mundi:






--Svitoslav Richter playing the four Op. 119 piano pieces live in Kiev: 




Pianists Elizabeth Leonskaja (on hybrid SACD), Julius Katchen, Radu Lupu, Emil Gilels, Arthur Rubinstein, and Dmitri Alexeev are likewise excellent in Brahms Late Piano works, but Richter is extra special in the Op. 119 set.

You might also enjoy Brahms Horn Trio, as well.

My two cents.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

^

Can't go wrong with Jochum for a complete symphony set, though I still also recommend Abbado/Berlin for the lush sound, particularly the 3rd which may be the best-ever recording of this work, if such a thing exists


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Haha we must be whatever the opposite of kindred spirits is.


It's the truth. You're able to access something in the German classics that often eludes me. Something that has always resonated with me is Ned Rorem's partition of Western art music into the "French" aesthetic (which for him includes Schubert and Wagner) and the "German" aesthetic (includes Berlioz), and my tastes definitely fall on the French side. To be provocative he'll go on to say that French music is "profoundly superficial" and German music is "superficially profound." He's being cute obviously, but if you asked me to give examples of what he means, I'd pick literally anything by Ravel, and then the Brahms first piano concerto. To me it's just heavy and endless.

But when I like Brahms, I like him as much as anything, and that happens most often in the chamber music, where the…textures are lighter? I don't know. As a non-musician I can only go so far to articulate these vague feelings.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I pretty much like all Brahms. Faves are Piano Cto 2, Symphony 4 and Handel Variations for piano


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

John Zito said:


> Something that has always resonated with me is Ned Rorem's partition of Western art music into the "French" aesthetic (which for him includes Schubert and Wagner) and the "German" aesthetic (includes Berlioz), and my tastes definitely fall on the French side. To be provocative he'll go on to say that French music is "profoundly superficial" and German music is "superficially profound." He's being cute obviously, but if you asked me to give examples of what he means, I'd pick literally anything by Ravel, and then the Brahms first piano concerto. To me it's just heavy and endless.


I wonder if there is more than cuteness about Rorem's distinction, especially when he has to group what many would think of as the most German (in the negative sense) composer Wagner and the quintessentially Austrian composer (besides the Waltz-Strausses) Schubert with the French which seems just bizarre and destroy any point his idea might have otherwise had.
Ravel vs. Brahms are just so different that the comparison makes little sense to me. Do you think that Brahms vs. contemporaries like Saint-Saens, Franck (who is not entirely French but heavier than Brahms) or Chausson would create a similar impression?


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I wonder if there is more than cuteness about Rorem's distinction, especially when he has to group what many would think of as the most German (in the negative sense) composer Wagner and the quintessentially Austrian composer (besides the Waltz-Strausses) Schubert with the French which seems just bizarre and destroy any point his idea might have otherwise had.


It might not be any deeper than that "French" composers are the ones Ned Rorem happens to like, and "German" composers are the ones he happens not to like. But if for the sake of argument we take him on good faith, there's some logic to the choices. Wagner's operas are perhaps symphonic in concept, but it's still basically program music. The music isn't "German" in the sense that he's eschewing the traditions of classical development. Isn't this why Wagner (with Liszt) was cast as a foil to Brahms in progressive/conservative debates of the period? But aesthetically the music is often lithe and sensual, qualities I do not associate with Brahms, Bruckner, Beethoven, Hindemith, whomever.

As for Schubert, I can only say that I "feel the truth" or what Rorem is getting at. I mainly know the piano sonatas, and comparing Schubert's to those of Beethoven (probably the quintessential "German" composer), they definitely feel lighter (in the sense of weight, not seriousness) and less rhetorical to me.



Kreisler jr said:


> Ravel vs. Brahms are just so different that the comparison makes little sense to me.


I don't mean to compare them head-on, just to give examples of what "profoundly superficial" and "superficially profound" might mean, if they mean anything at all. For me a work like _Daphnis et Chloé_ is "about" nothing more than color and light and sheen and "gosh, doesn't this all just sound terrific?" It's all surface, but at a very high level. And then Brahms' first piano concerto is a dense 50 minutes of Very Serious Music, which for my money gets pretty wearying before long.



Kreisler jr said:


> Do you think that Brahms vs. contemporaries like Saint-Saens, Franck (who is not entirely French but heavier than Brahms) or Chausson would create a similar impression?


Saint-Saëns and Franck might be "German", I don't know.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

John Zito said:


> As for Schubert, I can only say that I "feel the truth" or what Rorem is getting at. I mainly know the piano sonatas, and comparing Schubert's to those of Beethoven (probably the quintessential "German" composer), they definitely feel lighter (in the sense of weight, not seriousness) and less rhetorical to me.


Something you might want to consider:
"On the other hand, for the French, Mozart was certainly not 'one of us' from a national point of view. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, before Berlioz's time, some influential critics - for instance, Julien-Louis Geoffroy - rejected Mozart as a foreigner, considering his music 'scholastic', stressing his use of harmony over melody, and the dominance of the orchestra over singing in the operas - all these were considered negative features of 'Germanic' music." 
-an excerpt from 'Mozartian Undercurrents in Berlioz' (Benjamin Perl)


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

What's not to like?

My favourites are the clarinet quintet , the 3d symphony , the piano concerto n° 2 and the violin concerto.

It did take time for me to warm to Brahms in the beginning , but he was a genius and it is worth it.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

it certainly is, but on the subject of "what's not to like" some folks find his style can be heavy and TBH that doesn't entirely surprise me as, though I've always loved some of his works (e.g.Violin Concerto, Symph.no.3), others which are now also high on my list took a while to reveal their secrets (e.g.piano concerto no.2, Tragic Overture).


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

John Zito said:


> For me a work like _Daphnis et Chloé_ is "about" nothing more than color and light and sheen and "gosh, doesn't this all just sound terrific?" It's all surface, but at a very high level. And then Brahms' first piano concerto is a dense 50 minutes of Very Serious Music, which for my money gets pretty wearying before long.


I agree about the difference between the two, but for me the seriousness of Brahms is not off-putting. It's very natural to my ears, like something I click with. It's the same way with Furtwangler. What sounds natural to me is too "philosophical" to others.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Yes, Daphnis and Brahms 1st are good opposites. One is pretty but uninvolved and eventually tiring quasi-movie music to me and the other one grips me emotionally with the first timpani growl  
But I don't think the Rorem opposition works beyond such extreme examples and not for all the composers he mentions. 
Anyway, this seems to go beyond appreciation of Brahms. But as someone already mentioned, Brahms might among the always universally acknowledged great composers the one where an uncommonly large numbers disagrees about the status.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

And what's wrong with liking both? When I am in a "deep" mood I like large scale Brahms works, and when I am in a lighter mood I like Ravel and Satie, works that are more sensual and less ruminating.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I agree about the difference between the two, but for me the seriousness of Brahms is not off-putting. It's very natural to my ears, like something I click with. It's the same way with Furtwangler. What sounds natural to me is too "philosophical" to others.





Kreisler jr said:


> Yes, Daphnis and Brahms 1st are good opposites. One is pretty but uninvolved and eventually tiring quasi-movie music to me and the other one grips me emotionally with the first timpani growl
> But I don't think the Rorem opposition works beyond such extreme examples and not for all the composers he mentions.
> Anyway, this seems to go beyond appreciation of Brahms. But as someone already mentioned, Brahms might among the always universally acknowledged great composers the one where an uncommonly large numbers disagrees about the status.


I appreciate you all humoring me in this digression. The only reason I pay the Rorem thing any mind is because I have noticed that my own tastes do tend to cleave along the lines he draws, and so I'm tempted to believe there's something there.

But as you say, I'm dragging us far afield of the main topic. I most struggle with Brahms when he is in his "Very Serious" mode. I find the music heavy and relentless and even a tad ponderous if I'm feeling less charitable. But when he works for me, he works for me. The Brahms recordings I have really loved over the years:


 Cello sonatas - Ma, Ax (Sony);
 Violin sonatas - Perlman, Barenboim (Sony);
 Double concerto - Oistrakh, Rostropovich, Szell (Warner);
 Gilels' DG recordings (piano concertos, Fantasies, first piano quartet, Ballades);
 Volodos' recital of solo piano music (Sony).
I'm sure it's not at the top of most lists, but that Perlman/Barenboim recording of the violin sonatas is a real sentimental favorite. It was probably the first or second CD I ever bought back in middle school.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't really agree with the idea that Brahms and Beethoven are so 'deep' and Ravel is 'light'. I do agree there is something to this idea though and there is a difference (obviously) between these particular German and French approaches, but much of what is said here to me, misses the mark. 

It seems the divide starts with Beethoven. Bach and Mozart's styles are what I consider essentially very balanced approaches. Although stylistically very different they both symbolize to me what is attractive about both the later French and German approaches to music. 

If we are looking at later German music like Beethoven and Brahms, it certainly gives us something different than what we find in Ravel, but attributing one as deep and profound and the other as light and superficial is an unfair (and rather superficial) analysis that neglects what makes Ravel's music so powerful. 

Ravel's music has a sense of precision and emotional focus that is lacking in the heavy Germanic romantics. It is very refined. His use of harmony and orchestration creates a sense of real depth, that can make Brahms and Beethoven seem heavy-handed, labored and over-wrought in comparison. 

In my view it is Ravel's use of imagination that allowed him to create such a stunning and unique sound world. To me what Ravel's music shows us is that much of what we face in life can be transcended through the imagination.


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## Wigmar (7 mo ago)

As to orchestral works, I recommend:
symphonies 1-4:
Vienna Philharmonic Orch / Kertezs. Decca SXLH 6610-13 (4 lp), Philharmonia Orch / Klemperer. Warner Classics 50999 4 04338 (4 cd)
piano concertos 1 op 15 & 2 op 83
Brendel / Concertgebouw Orch / Schmidt-
Isserstedt (1), Haitink (2)
Philips 416662-1 (op 15), Philips 416238-1(op 83)
violin concerto op 77
Neveu / Philharmonia Orch / Dobrowen. EMI
0777 7 6101125 (recorded 1946)
Oistrakh / USSR Radio-symph orch / Kondrashin. M 2287 (recorded 1950 or 1952)


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

pjang23 said:


> There's also the Requiem, Nanie, Alto Rhapsody, Schicksalslied, and Gesang der Parzen for orchestral choral works.


Yes! These are wonderful pieces that are too often overlooked.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Schoenberg's transcription for orchestra of Brahms's F minor piano quartet - try to hear the Robert Craft performance.


Schoenberg orchestrated the G minor piano quartet. Did he do the F minor piano quintet too?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have never seen an orchestration of the piano quintet. But there is one for the b major trio and the clarinet sonatas (never heard them).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Schoenberg orchestrated the G minor piano quartet. Did he do the F minor piano quintet too?


The only book I have on Schoenberg is Malcolm Macdonald’s and he doesn’t mention any other Brahms orchestrations. Neither does he mention the ones that @Kreisler jr mentions - where did you find out about the, @Kreisler jr?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

They are fairly recent, I have seen recordings of them. Apparently it is only the f minor clarinet sonata but by none less than Luciano Berio. Put "Brahms Berio" into online vendor search.
I cannot find the trio except for a youtube clip of the first movement with an "electronic orchestra" by Jonathan Alves but I am not sure if this was what I remember.






That's the one I meant, by some Swensen and with a real orchestra






ASIN ‏ : ‎ B006LYJEDI 

While I have some fondness for the Schoenberg orchestrations (also Bach and Strauss) historically probably more interesting are the four hand piano arrangements of many chamber and orchestral works, sometimes done by Brahms himself or at least with his approval (all on Naxos, of course). There are also trio arrangements by Brahms' friend Kirchner of the Sextets. (Better known is probably Kirchner's trio version of a bunch of Schumann's pedal piano studies that is sometimes a filler for Schumann trios)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Oh, sorry I thought you meant that Schoenberg made an orchestration of Brahms’s clarinet music, @Kreisler jr


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