# Composer Questions



## opus1

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I am "not so unknown" composer of classical (yes, contemporary) music. I have been here several times and I am astonished that there are so many people "still" loving and understanding the classical and/or contemporary music.

I wish to remain anonymous. Please understand that I will avoid to answer these questions that would reveal my identity. 
I am open to answer to many of your questions you would like to ask a living composer such as life, practices, relationships, etc. One question per post, that would be easiest.

Looking forward, op1.
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## Art Rock

Can you make a living from your compositions? Do you have to compromise once in a while and compose something (for money) that you normally would not have done?

(Yes, I know that's two questions, but they're strongly related)


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## opus1

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<QUOTE=Art Rock;1554001>Can you make a living from your compositions? Do you have to compromise once in a while and compose something (for money) that you normally would not have done?

(Yes, I know that's two questions, but they're strongly related)[/QUOTE]

That is perhaps one of the first questions a composer gets.

Yes, I am not a rich man, but I have managed to live 'only' by being a composer for last 5 years, exclusively. It means without side jobs, teaching, or writing music for commercial purpose. 
I do only what we call "classical - contemporary" music and it is not so easy. It is actually very, very hard. There are numerous obstacles that are scary. I live on the edge, but on the other side my needs are not so high. I have everything right now to live modestly every day.

But I have never composed anything that I wouldn't otherwise. I did some arrangements 10+ years ago. But for now, I just want to make my art.
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## Jacck

Hi,
I would be interested in the process of artistic creation. How does inspiration come to you? Is it a process of emotion, intuition, or intellect and planning? Do you envision the whole work in a flash of genius, or do you struggle with each note?


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## Phil loves classical

How do you compose your serial music?


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## opus1

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<QUOTE=Art Rock;1554001>Can you make a living from your compositions? Do you have to compromise once in a while and compose something (for money) that you normally would not have done?

(Yes, I know that's two questions, but they're strongly related)[/QUOTE]

That is perhaps one of the first questions a composer gets.

Yes, I am not a rich man, but I have managed to live 'only' by being a composer for last 5 years, exclusively. It means without side jobs, teaching, or writing music for commercial purpose. 
I do only what we call "classical - contemporary" music and it is not so easy. It is actually very, very hard. There are numerous obstacles that are scary. I live on the edge, but on the other side my needs are not so high. I have everything right now to live modestly every day.

But I have never composed anything that I wouldn't otherwise. I did some arrangements 10+ years ago. But for now, I just want to make my art.
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## opus1

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Jacck said:


> Hi,
> I would be interested in the process of artistic creation. How does inspiration come to you? Is it a process of emotion, intuition, or intellect and planning? Do you envision the whole work in a flash of genius, or do you struggle with each note?


Sometimes I feel completely desperate when staring a new piece. I have a feeling I have never written a note.

Every music is different, thus the way of composing differs. I can imagine in my head music that is "classical" (so to speak, tonal with clear parameters of the classical mechanics) and able to remember it and write it down even without piano. That is not so fascinating actually.
But my music is more diffuse (in order to avoid word "complex"), and therefore it needs more planning. But...
//
I deeply believe that the main force of music lies in its noetic and on a metaphysical plane (prior to aesthetic). In a way - I need to have a complete idea done before writing it. The idea is not a musical one, but a spiritual one. Without clear ideas I just sit in front of the piano or paper sheet and there nothing can be done.

The music consists of an extreme inner forces. I need to discuss with myself these forces before trying even to imagine a sound.
//
I mostly struggle. I struggle to define importance of the art and music before I start to write it. I also struggle to shape correctly all notes, but I am almost sure that it doesn't really matter if the main inner forces of the music are correct. So if I say "apple" you can paint that word in endless combinations, and many of them can really be a wonderful piece of art.
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## Guest

Hello and welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy your time here. 
Feel free to post examples of your music in the Today’s Composers section; I’m sure we would love to hear your music and read your comments about composition there. 

If you want me to ask you a question, I guess I’ll just ask: whom did you study with and what was the most valuable lesson you’ve learnt from composition?


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## opus1

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shirime said:


> whom did you study with and what was the most valuable lesson you've learnt from composition?


I have met many teachers, mostly European, but some from US as well.
Generally, there is no way to 'learn' how to compose - usually the composition education turns to be an education that produces good musicologists or music theorists or even a wonderful orchestrators. There are indeed fantastic music critics that understand everything about music perfectly, but they are unable to create. To create means to create something from nothing, and furthermore to create own vocabulary and mechanics that is very unique. Therefore it is almost entirely impossible that a teacher would learn his/her students to compose and at the same time not to be plain copyists.

On the contrary, I have learnt quite a lot at the schools where it was obligatory to have extensive piano score-reading, or to 'compose' for years renaissance motets or instrumental baroque fugues. In that way, your brain becomes very sharp. How to use your sharp mind in order to create something unique - it is defined on the another plane, spiritual, logical, emotional. Sure, some composers can elevate that questions to their own students, and of course that is far away from pure 'teaching of composition'.
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## Antihero

Do you use daw for composing? If yes which one?


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## Larkenfield

How would you contrast the compositions of Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg? Do you have a preference? What about Stravinsky's serial compositions? Do you care for them? Evidently, you have written similar works yourself. If possible, please post without your PGP signature. It looks like clutter on the forum and shouldn't be necessary for every post. Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, and Stravinsky...


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## opus1

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Antihero said:


> Do you use daw for composing? If yes which one?


I am trained as a instrumentalist from my early age, therefore I have to a some degree distaste for "composing" in a DAW or in notation software. For me it is contrary to what music is: a flow. I know many, many composers that type their music in Sibelius or Finale. I think it is a handicap.
OTOH, I do use DAW in order to record my ideas (both audio and MIDI), but the main aspect of composing is writing it by hand (that includes improvising and playing). My recordings are just a basis for the further analysis or reflection about the form, energy flow or similar. 
Being on Mac I use Logic.

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## opus1

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Larkenfield said:


> How would you contrast the compositions of Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg? Do you have a preference? What about Stravinsky's serial compositions? Do you care for them? Evidently, you have written similar works yourself.


Personally, I think that Schoenberg is the weakest and Berg is the strongest composer there (except Stravinsky). My generalizing: the problem with Schoenberg is that he didn't understand that focusing on the harmonic/melodic system is not the way music is going to be different. If you compare his music to Scriabin, Schoenberg fails to create a new expression or genome-type. Scriabin and Debussy are the true Contemporary music, the Avangarde of the beginning of the century. Schoenberg fails to distinct himself from brahmsian-type of composing: there is a sonata form, rondo, ostinato, 4+4 measure phrasing, fugue... actually everything that one needs to change in order to create a new music. His music, for me, sounds as Brahms with wrong pitches. In my opinion, he was more genius in early works.
Berg is fascinating. He managed to make a new fusion with the late romanticism - as an extension, but also, what many people don't hear, impressionism of Debussyan-type. His strongest point is in understanding the harmonic aspects of the new technique, and what is above all: his humanity.
I rarely listen Webern's music. I think it is not appealing, but - yes, it is different and there is his force apparently sharp. My problem with Webern is that anyone can create that type of music, which is totally opposite from Berg. He could create just one orchestral, one chamber and one solo piece and be done.
Stravinsky's late period is his the most weak period. Not because of the tonal organization but because there is nothing fresh or new in this music.
Concerning your question in general: the deficiency of harmonic organization (generally speaking, as a harmonic forces) in 12 tone music results in a need for constant polyphony, and that is indeed the weakest part of this music. The baroque polyphony is result of the harmonic forces inside, and that lacks in many non-tonal music.
The problem is in the concept as well. I see as a spiritual battle between German and Franco-russian type of art. Schoenberg's total misconception was his belief to create new music by shifting the technique.
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## Guest

In a paragraph can you summarise the influence of Lachenmann on the younger generations of composers in Europe?


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## opus1

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shirime said:


> In a paragraph can you summarise the influence of Lachenmann on the younger generations of composers in Europe?


It looks like you need help for an essay.

I don't think that there is any big influence of his music on the younger generations, except maybe in Germany, Austria and also Switzerland and Italy. A question arises if any of his influences is good for future composers, and also if his music is particularly exceptional, so to speak: if it is apparently clear that the sound projection is absolutely "lachemannian" - as we could speak about Messiaen for example - if not, than the question is remains "what is Lachemann"?

I am not a big fan of Lachenmann. Furthermore, as a composer I am usually not concerned about others' music. Not that I don't care, but I rarely need to investigate others' works in order to be inspired or to get new tricks. Equally good tricks one can get from Japanese processional royal music.
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## Guest

opus1 said:


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> 
> It looks like you need help for an essay.
> 
> I don't think that there is any big influence of his music on the younger generations, except maybe in Germany, Austria and also Switzerland and Italy. A question arises if any of his influences is good for future composers, and also if his music is particularly exceptional, so to speak: if it is apparently clear that the sound projection is absolutely "lachemannian" - as we could speak about Messiaen for example - if not, than the question is remains "what is Lachemann"?
> 
> I am not a big fan of Lachenmann. Furthermore, as a composer I am usually not concerned about others' music. Not that I don't care, but I rarely need to investigate others' works in order to be inspired or to get new tricks. Equally good tricks one can get from Japanese processional royal music.
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I don't at all need help for an essay, but I find your answer quite revealing of your own preferences and biases. That's why I asked.

Here's another question: in what ways has Darmstadt of today changed or stayed the same since the inception of the summer courses in new music, and how does it benefit new music today?


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## PlaySalieri

shirime said:


> I don't at all need help for an essay, but I find your answer quite revealing of your own preferences and biases. That's why I asked.
> 
> Here's another question: *in what ways has Darmstadt of today changed or stayed the same* since the inception of the summer courses in new music, and how does it benefit new music today?


He says he's not concerned with others' music.


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## Guest

stomanek said:


> He says he's not concerned with others' music.


I'm referring to the way the institution/festival has changed as a whole (and what things have not changed) rather than individual composers' music. I think it's a shame that a professional composer is not concerned with the music of his peers and mentors because it's always enlightening to hear a composer's perspective on the music being written today and the music of people who inspired them.


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## PlaySalieri

shirime said:


> I'm referring to the way the institution/festival has changed as a whole (and what things have not changed) rather than individual composers' music. I think it's a shame that a professional composer is not concerned with the music of his peers and mentors because it's always enlightening to hear a composer's perspective on the music being written today and the music of people who inspired them.


Yes it strikes me as arrogant and narrow. Mozart and other great composers studied the compositions of their peers.


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## Guest

stomanek said:


> Yes it strikes me as arrogant and narrow. Mozart and other great composers studied the compositions of their peers.


It strikes me the same way, but I don't think opus1 is going to change his ways any time soon. Carefully crafted questions that he's willing to answer seem to be the best way to communicate. I would rather opus1 feel comfortable to answer the questions I ask rather than antagonise him through uncalled-for remarks against his most unusual character. His answers have been surprisingly revealing, to be frank!


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## opus1

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stomanek said:


> Yes it strikes me as arrogant and narrow. Mozart and other great composers studied the compositions of their peers.


I don't know if you are a composer and have any idea how the inspiration works.

I am interested in my friend's music perhaps as well as the mentioned composers.

But today's world is extremely wide. There are thousands and thousands professional composers around, and perhaps 10 times more of amateurs and perhaps even millions if you count all other "non orchestral" composers (including indie electronic composers, cross overs etc) so...
Basically your idea is that my personality, and my artistic ideas will be "polluted" by that enormous amount of data and sound and scores in order not to be arrogant and narrow?

That actually makes you so wide that you are unable to write any note.

I know many very established composers (let us say generation 1950s) who don't care about others' music either, in the sense that they don't need that on the breakfast table in order to write their own music.

If you ask me what composers I like, I would answer that I love almost all composers. That is different. As young I did investigate many composers, but for now I ended up in being tired of anythig that is outside of the world inside.
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## opus1

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shirime said:


> Here's another question: in what ways has Darmstadt of today changed or stayed the same since the inception of the summer courses in new music, and how does it benefit new music today?


For me, Darmstadt is more a cult than reality. Today, people go there rather as pilgrims, more than to hear anyting new. And nothing new comes from there, in my opinion. It is mumified and still the same as it was before.

The last time I was there it sounded exactly as recordings from the first years. The publishers make a great deal for keeping this running on, as well the German cultural institutions.

I am afraid, I cannot comment more than this, but shortly speaking I don't think that Darmstat plays any significant role in the contemporary music today. Neither does the Warsaw Autumn. The world has become diffuse and spread, there is no centre that can be pointed as a "contemporary music paradise".
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## aleazk

opus1 said:


> I don't know if you are a composer and have any idea how the inspiration works.
> 
> I am interested in my friend's music perhaps as well as the mentioned composers.
> 
> But today's world is extremely wide. There are thousands and thousands professional composers around, and perhaps 10 times more of amateurs and perhaps even millions if you count all other "non orchestral" composers (including indie electronic composers, cross overs etc) so...
> Basically your idea is that my personality, and my artistic ideas will be "polluted" by that enormous amount of data and sound and scores in order not to be arrogant and narrow?
> 
> That actually makes you so wide that you are unable to write any note.
> 
> I know many very established composers (let us say generation 1950s) who don't care about others' music either, in the sense that they don't need that on the breakfast table in order to write their own music.


It doesn't work like that at all. It's just a question of intellectual curiosity. Any contemporary artist worth its salt is simply interested in what is going on in the times. It's like when you wake up and go to read the newspaper to know the latest news, it's just a question of intellectual curiosity and a desire to keep informed. And once you are familiar with it, you may or may not want to incorporate those news into your art. But to retreat to your fortress of solitude is quite reactionary and speaks of certain intellectual laziness, all attitudes which frankly I find quite baffling coming from someone who would consider himself a 'contemporary' composer. I say this with respecct, but trying to be honest in expressing what I think when I read what you say.


----------



## Johann Sebastian Bach

I recall a tutorial with my composition tutor (Helen Glatz) when I was at music college in the 1960s. I'd just completed a setting of a song for an 8-part choir and I was delighted with it. Helen was a formidable woman but for once, I felt confident in her presence.

I played her the song.

She was silent for a moment and barked "Whose style is it in?". I felt affronted and said "It's mine. It's in my style".

Back she came, barking, "Don't be silly, you're only 20 years old. How can you have a style of your own. It'll take years before you can say you have a style of your own."

I felt crushed by the encounter and went back to harmonising chorales in the style of Bach, completing polyphonic motets _a la_ Palestrina and improvising Webern.

But I now tend to agree with her, that you only learn to be a composer of today by studying the composers of yesterday.


----------



## Guest

opus1 said:


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> 
> For me, Darmstadt is more a cult than reality. Today, people go there rather as pilgrims, more than to hear anyting new. And nothing new comes from there, in my opinion. It is mumified and still the same as it was before.
> 
> The last time I was there it sounded exactly as recordings from the first years. The publishers make a great deal for keeping this running on, as well the German cultural institutions.
> 
> I am afraid, I cannot comment more than this, but shortly speaking I don't think that Darmstat plays any significant role in the contemporary music today. Neither does the Warsaw Autumn. The world has become diffuse and spread, there is no centre that can be pointed as a "contemporary music paradise".
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Here's another question: what New Music ensembles (eg Klangforum Wien, Ensemble InterContemporain, International Contemporary Ensemble state al) and New Music festivals (like Donaueschinger Musiktage for example) do you value the most in how they benefit the lives and works of composers today and why?


----------



## aleazk

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> But I now tend to agree with her, that you only learn to be a composer of today by studying the composers of yesterday.


I think that's a given, I cannot consider seriously a composer who hasn't even bothered to make himself familiar with the history of the art to which he pretends to incorporate his pieces. But another question, and an interesting one, is if he also should be familiar with what other contemporary composers are doing right now. I find that quite more interesting, since it's not material that you can find in the books, you must go out there, experience it by yourself. And most importantly, it is alive material, not something pre-digested which you can find printed on books and musicological analyses, you have to digest it yourself, you have to make choices yourself. So, it's not as simplistic as opus1 wants to put it, of just stealing it. Before 'stealing' something from another contemporary composer, you must decide what is actually worth stealing in the first place. And that's pretty interesting, since it will reveal your own tastes, what do you consider valuable in today's aesthetic scene, and what you predict which will be seen in the future as a mark of this era and which was, therefore, worth the try, etc. I find that 'field work' quite exciting and stimulating. In my field, mathematical physics, you are confronted with that all the time if you want to work in the frontiers of knowledge. You want to work in quantum gravity? Ok, but there are dozens of proposed theories, which one yo choose to make your work in? That choosing task will challenge your understanding and knowledge of current accepted theories and your ability to predict, based on that, what seems to be the most promising and likely to be correct approach. It's very exciting but also it can give you a bit of vertigo, but that's what it means to work in those fields. I approach contemporary composition with the same frame of mind, since that was the mark of the great modern composers, like Stockhausen, Boulez and Ligeti. Take the latter for example, and how in his late style he was influenced by the minimalists but he took and completely redefined their techniques, making in this way rather fresh contemporary music in a time in which things were starting to get a bit stiff in the scence.


----------



## opus1

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aleazk said:


> It doesn't work like that at all. It's just a question of intellectual curiosity. Any contemporary artist worth its salt is simply interested in what is going on in the times. It's like when you wake up and go to read the newspaper to know the latest news, it's just a question of intellectual curiosity and a desire to keep informed. And once you are familiar with it, you may or may not want to incorporate those news into your art. But to retreat to your fortress of solitude is quite reactionary and speaks of certain intellectual laziness, all attitudes which frankly I find quite baffling coming from someone who would consider himself a 'contemporary' composer. I say this with respecct, but trying to be honest in expressing what I think when I read what you say.


I simply disagree. If that works for you, it doesn't mean that it is healthy for another person.

You compare the intellectual curiosity with the artistic creativity. In my case I confirm that just protecting myself from being "polluted" (not in a bad sense) constantly and daily by numerous new works would disable my ability to create independently. I promise that. It is entirely opposite in the world of science (let us say - computer science).

I would suggest experimenting with that. Be inspired by other types of art, philosophy, religion, science (…) and try to incorporate that in your new work.

I studied all the contemporary stuff, that is also true. But I don't need to recycle it again. If you believe that I never turn and look at any score, or turn off the radio when a new piece is played - that is not true. I just don't need that just for my inspiration. And of course there are works of the living composers that I admire.

One has to think precisely opposite of what the universities teach you. 
To think outside of the box, completely independently. 
Any valuable thing that is made by the science or art is actually going to the depths of consciousness where no one has been, or in spite that it looked impossible to enter.

The most important parameter is to dwell deeply in yourself and give what is possible to be authentic. To tell me that how I operate is "baffling" is just your opinion.
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## opus1

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shirime said:


> Here's another question: what New Music ensembles (eg Klangforum Wien, Ensemble InterContemporain, International Contemporary Ensemble state al) and New Music festivals (like Donaueschinger Musiktage for example) do you value the most in how they benefit the lives and works of composers today and why?


In my opinion, for the sake of the art, the ensembles that commission new music or are involved in premieres.

Perhaps Birmingham Contemporary Music Group, Klangforum, International Contemporary Ensemble, Boston Modern Orchestra Project and similar. But that list can be very long. I hope you understand my point.

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----------



## Simon Moon

My main reason for coming to Talk Classical, is to discuss music and most importantly, to discover new composers and pieces. I am almost obsessed with discovering new music. I purchase a lot of contemporary classical music.

I have no musical training or deep knowledge of theory. I am just a fan of late 20th century and contemporary classical music. I want to support contemporary composers as much as I am able to, through support and purchase of their music.

So, please try to understand my frustration with your unwillingness to reveal your identity. 

So, this leads me to a question.

Do you have any recordings available for purchase?


----------



## aleazk

opus1 said:


> You compare the intellectual curiosity with the artistic creativity.


Not exactly and that's the mistake that leads you to your 'all me' approach. I said that for being a _contemporary_ composer, you need a good dose of intellectual curiosity for your contemporary surroundings rather than self-imposed isolation from fear of some supposed 'pollution'. You almost sound like some racial supremacist being afraid that his wonderful self can be contaminated by others. If you are so sure about yourself and your ideas, then there shouldn't be any problem. As I mentioned, no one is saying that you must take necessarily the ideas you hear from others, but it's a good exercise to at least have an eye on them.

So, a contemporary composer is someone whose creativity is informed by his intellectual curiosity about what is contemporary, that's what makes him a 'contemporary' composer, and that's what I'm saying. Otherwise, you are only a contemporary composer just by name, because you are living now. Fine, but that's quite uninteresting and has nothing to do with what we understand as contemporary art (and that's valid for any past era, too).

You as a single isolated person do not have all of what is contemporary all inside yourself. Other people also exist in simultaneity to you, and are having great ideas that may offer you insights into our contemporary existence that didn't occur to you in the first place since one single person cannot think everything that's relevant at a given moment in history. It is all those ideas that make our time. And who knows, maybe you can even end liking and finding some of those ideas relevant to you, even if they were not your ideas in the first place. I'm not questioning your creativity or your methods, you can compose whatever you want and using whatever means you want, I question you calling yourself a 'contemporary composer' when you say that you don't care about other contemporary composer's ideas and prefer to retreat to your comfortable hole. You sound more like a reactionary composer rather than a 'contemporary' one, and that extreme self centeredness is a recipe for bad and irrelevant art. You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake. You are individual, yes, with its own personality and ideas, yes, but also you are immersed in a society and in an era. And art is precisely something which acquires its meaning in a society, it's by definition an activity whose frame is society and the culture of that society.

Anyway, you seem to tone down a bit your original remarks in the rest of your post. In any case, part of being a contemporary composer is being a good filter of all that bombarding of which you talk about. But you must confront it, and it's, as I said, actually quite exciting and challenging. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## arpeggio

From looking at some of the responses, I can understand if he is a real composer why he would want to remain anonymous. If I was I would. 

In some other forums I used my real name. It actually caused me some embarrassing moments and I am just an amateur performer. 

For example in the old Amazon forum I was very open about my identity and the various community groups that I performed with. As is well know here I defend those who like contemporary music, even concerning the music I hate. In the Amazon forum some of the members got so mad at me concerning my positions that they actually threatened to complain about me with the various groups I was involved with. I had to drop our for a year. When I returned I searched out all of my previous posts, deleted them and returned using a pseudonym.

The vast majority of the members here are pretty decent, but there are a few that can be very difficult. I have leaned to not engage with them.


----------



## arpeggio

I do have one question for our friend. Since I am a band junkie, have you ever composed anything for wind ensemble or the concert band? This is a very active genre of contemporary music in the United States and it is growing in Europe and Japan.

Some of the more effective European band composers are Nigle Clark, Johan de Meij and Franco Cesarini.


----------



## Tchaikov6

arpeggio said:


> I do have one question for our friend. Since I am a band junkie, have you ever composed anything for wind ensemble or the concert band? This is a very active genre of contemporary music in the United States and it is growing in Europe and Japan.
> 
> Some of the more effective European band composers are Nigle Clark, Johan de Meij and Franco Cesarini.


This brought a smile to my face because it reminded me of our little argument over whether Holst was a one-hit wonder. I had the pleasure of listening to his second band suite in concert and enjoyed it immensely. Of course I had always loved the Holst suites, but had never seen it as a very popular work. Ironically, our high school band then performed the first suite the next year, as well as some other performances from other high schools I had heard about. You win


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## opus1

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Simon Moon said:


> My main reason for coming to Talk Classical, is to discuss music and most importantly, to discover new composers and pieces. I am almost obsessed with discovering new music. I purchase a lot of contemporary classical music.
> 
> I have no musical training or deep knowledge of theory. I am just a fan of late 20th century and contemporary classical music. I want to support contemporary composers as much as I am able to, through support and purchase of their music.
> 
> So, please try to understand my frustration with your unwillingness to reveal your identity.
> 
> So, this leads me to a question.
> 
> Do you have any recordings available for purchase?


Thank you.
Yes I do. 
If you are coming from the US and love the contemporary music, I guess it is a great chance that you have it already.

It is absolutely wonderful to hear that. The contemporary music needs such persons.
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## opus1

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aleazk said:


> Not exactly and that's the mistake that leads you to your 'all me' approach. I said that for being a _contemporary_ composer, you need a good dose of intellectual curiosity for your contemporary surroundings rather than self-imposed isolation from fear of some supposed 'pollution'. You almost sound like some racial supremacist being afraid that his wonderful self can be contaminated by others...


I just sincerely explained my artistic position - that actually works wonderfully for me; but unfortunately I was faced with a lot of accusations and assumptions. You are certainly warmly welcome to ask me another question, my unknown friend!
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## opus1

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arpeggio said:


> I do have one question for our friend. Since I am a band junkie, have you ever composed anything for wind ensemble or the concert band?


Actually, I have never composed for a band.
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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hi there opus1! I'm a guitar player who likes to buy new music with guitar, but only sometimes perform them. Have you written solo or chamber music for guitar? If so, did you work with a guitarist? If not, why not?  I too like to hear new music and mainly music without guitar.


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## aleazk

opus1 said:


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I think I will pass, sorry. I have had more interesting interactions with other composers, this leads nowhere.

PS: unknown to you, maybe. There are many seasoned members of this forum that know my full 'real' name, where I live, what I do and even have me on their facebook.


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## opus1

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Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hi there opus1! I'm a guitar player who likes to buy new music with guitar, but only sometimes perform them. Have you written solo or chamber music for guitar? If so, did you work with a guitarist? If not, why not?  I too like to hear new music and mainly music without guitar.


Yes, I have written for the guitar. It is really a difficult instrument to compose for, as far as I remember only Gubaidulina compsed her pieces without actually working with a guitarist, however her guitar music is not as complex as Berio's - who did get an extensive help from a guitarist.
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## Guest

Question: To what degree to you find interdisciplinary works (particularly stuff by composers like Elena Rykova) a prominent new direction for some composers of contemporary classical music and do you think this ‘genre’ will grow in prominence in the next generations of composers?


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## opus1

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shirime said:


> Question: To what degree to you find interdisciplinary works (particularly stuff by composers like Elena Rykova) a prominent new direction for some composers of contemporary classical music and do you think this 'genre' will grow in prominence in the next generations of composers?


I strongly believe that the interdisciplinary works of art have a great future and are indeed very important for the society as a whole. I am self also interested in that, and I have done some recent works on the edge of it, yet not fully implemented as the person you mention.

Checking briefly Mrs Rykova, that looks interesting, but in my humble opinion there is ONE single issue that makes a discomfort in my perception.
If one wants to go further with the interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary arts, the whole concept as a totality must involve the superior qualities in all aspects of that work. It is very, very common that the different disciplines try to compensate their deficiences in each other. It is indeed very rare to see a work of an interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary art that involves superb quality in all domains of its creation. It is so common that such art has somehow "uncompleted" or "somehow vague" music, or that visual projection is "unclear" or "amateurish".

The power of Wagner is released in his control of the totality of his creation. The next generation of composers and artists need to strive for the same totality, without a compromise.
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## TurnaboutVox

I think I'm just going to pause this thread here until we review it and decide how to proceed.

Some contributors are posting things which are not unequivocally positive about fellow members - this is both unwelcome and against forum rules. There are also some off-topic posts.

Some calmness in posting and responding to others will be welcome if and when the thread reopens.


----------



## Taggart

Thread re-opened after moderator discussion. A number of posts have been removed for being off topic, not positive about other members or for being replies to such posts.

There has been some valuable discussion here. If you wish it to continue a) be polite to your fellow members b) stay on topic.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

I've often found the relationship between composer and conductor a very tense affair and not always very positive. Have you experienced any of your work being performed in a manner not to your liking?
Two examples to illustrate what I mean:
a composer being very angry when I wouldn't interpret a section in a particular way from an emotional perspective and
a composer scowling at me because I took a section slower than he'd marked it, because some of the performers were amateurs and weren't adept enough to play at a fast tempo.

In other words, do you believe that you relinquish control of interpretation at the moment a piece is published (or performed without your direction)?


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## Guest

Do you have a favourite brand or kind of music manuscript paper?


----------



## Guest

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> I've often found the relationship between composer and conductor a very tense affair and not always very positive. Have you experienced any of your work being performed in a manner not to your liking?
> Two examples to illustrate what I mean:
> a composer being very angry when I wouldn't interpret a section in a particular way from an emotional perspective and
> a composer scowling at me because I took a section slower than he'd marked it, because some of the performers were amateurs and weren't adept enough to play at a fast tempo.
> 
> In other words, do you believe that you relinquish control of interpretation at the moment a piece is published (or performed without your direction)?


Actually I'm curious to know the answer to something a bit similar to this. From my experience there are pieces where I have had little to no communication with the musicians at all during the composition and rehearsal process and hearing my music performed for the first time (not having heard any rehearsals) feels like I'm putting a huge amount of trust in the musicians to pull it off musically. I've never heard an unmusical performance of my music, but I've heard interpretations that I've expected as well as interpretations that have surprised me. Personally I prefer a surprising interpretation as it often allows me to hear something I've never quite heard in my compositions before. However, there's a sense of security in discussing interpretation during rehearsal and in preparation for a performance, although the 'wow' factor of hearing the pure musicality of another musician in an interpretation I may not have considered isn't as present. My question is: does opus1 prefer hearing a performance of his music after having discussed the music in detail during rehearsals, or does opus1 like to be surprised in performance?


----------



## ollv

hey composer, do you have just only one realy interesting theme ? do you unedrstood how it can be cought ?
please demonstrate it (I am sure any real composer able to show theme, which currently is not famous)) I able to emostrate for yu personally // but it is your topic - please welcome )


----------



## rbacce

Hello opus1. 

When a composer develops some sort of recognizably relevant aspect of the musical language, I believe there're often two main ways of understanding such development, at least in common sense: 1) the composer understandood the internal needs of the language, its grammar and meanings, and took it forward in an almost impersonal way, as if it was a "natural development" of music and its Zeitgeist (as in Schoenberg's serialism); or 2) the composer, by developing his/her personal style, being faithful to something very personal, contributed to music's development.

Considering that, what do you think about such dichotomy? Putting it in another way, does each composer have their own personal style or is the language an impersonal entity, which can be understood in an objective way? Or maybe both?


----------



## opus1

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Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> I've often found the relationship between composer and conductor a very tense affair and not always very positive. Have you experienced any of your work being performed in a manner not to your liking?
> Two examples to illustrate what I mean:
> a composer being very angry when I wouldn't interpret a section in a particular way from an emotional perspective and
> a composer scowling at me because I took a section slower than he'd marked it, because some of the performers were amateurs and weren't adept enough to play at a fast tempo.
> 
> In other words, do you believe that you relinquish control of interpretation at the moment a piece is published (or performed without your direction)?


Interesting question, indeed, and often asked.
I try to collaborate with the conductors that like my music. I am however unable to control performances that are outside of my planning, for instance multiple performances of my music that I don't organize.
But for the first performances it is important for me to be present there. Usually I go well with performers and conductors but once happened to me (for one premiere) that the conductor devastadet my piece, I believe by purpose. Long story not to be told here.
Usually, amateurs don't play my music, so no idea how it would work with them. 
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## opus1

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shirime said:


> Do you have a favourite brand or kind of music manuscript paper?


Not exactly. I use to print manuscript paper for each piece. I have the exact staff hight that corresponds to the pencil size. Two important things: no white color - but beige or similar (to relax eyes), and somehow thinner paper so that when I erase something I don't get traces. And I erase quite often.
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## opus1

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ollv said:


> hey composer, do you have just only one realy interesting theme ? do you unedrstood how it can be cought ?
> please demonstrate it (I am sure any real composer able to show theme, which currently is not famous)) I able to emostrate for yu personally // but it is your topic - please welcome )


In my opinion, there is mystification of the importance of theme. I believe the contrary: the development (and the totality) is what gives brightness and importance to a theme, not the theme itself.

Now I will make a strong generalisation but by purpose: If you take Mozart as an example, the most of his music starts with arpeggiated tonic triad or similar to that. Or Brahms' Violin concerto: that "theme" could be anything, really. Just the tonic triad up and down. But Brahms makes one of the greatest violin concertos...

So, when you don't focus on the "theme" but everything what goes after it: as a fluid force, energy, radiation, flow, strength of the totality..., than the theme will work for you.

Of course, it will 'happen' that after numerous works, you find a lovely theme that simply is The Theme. But don't focus on it a priori.
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## ollv

> In my opinion, there is mystification of the importance of theme. 
)) ha-ha I very often listen it from composers who unable to cought it )) in my opinion it is not composers in real idea )) (honestly speaking) 
but not only .. I very often listen ideas which we can call themes, like of Antheil jazz sonata (there is main idea whuch able to cought), or something themes from Shoenberg, but it is .. I don't know it can be more expressive )) more musiciallls . 
but I do not like @[email protected] who tell about itself .. but unable to compose music )) it is not math, it is not .. formal rules to compose.
show me anything which can touch my soul - it is main rule of music.


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## ollv

ha welcome to the real world )) - pops song composera it is more composers than your who unable to coutght theme .. just my opinion. 
there is many tiny things which peoples music .. 
for example prokofiev has composed 7 sonata - it is realy good for some people. also he composed dance of knights )) this is like of signature or face of composer. He proved, he was able )) 
also shostakovich pitserburg symphny .. it is yes mistification) But composer should be able to touch soul ...
welcome to the real world


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## opus1

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rbacce said:


> Hello opus1.
> 
> When a composer develops some sort of recognisably relevant aspect of the musical language, I believe there're often two main ways of understanding such development, at least in common sense: 1) the composer understandood the internal needs of the language, its grammar and meanings, and took it forward in an almost impersonal way, as if it was a "natural development" of music and its Zeitgeist (as in Schoenberg's serialism); or 2) the composer, by developing his/her personal style, being faithful to something very personal, contributed to music's development.
> 
> Considering that, what do you think about such dichotomy? Putting it in another way, does each composer have their own personal style or is the language an impersonal entity, which can be understood in an objective way? Or maybe both?


I am having a bit difficult to understand precisely what you mean, but I will try to answer.

In my opinion, I believe that it is somehow both. When a composer develops his* own musical language, very personal, and very recognisable, than it is defined on a higher plane, higher than the music mechanics is. Composer immanently knows what it is, using 'via negativa', knowing what it absolutely IS NOT.

To know precisely what his music 'is absolutely not' is on the higher relevance than knowing what 'it absolutely is'. That negative knowledge gives him ability to work on the level where music mechanics does not operate at all. 
Furthermore, to define what it is, he must use the music mechanics in order to define it, so to speak, must define its technical aspects.

If the language is an impersonal entity, than anyone knowing well the mechanics of that language could make a verbatim copy of someone's style, and that is very hard, if not impossible, let us say: create 7th Brandenburg concerto, or 7th Bartok's string quartet, or extra movement for Turangalila symph, etc.

( Concerning Schoenberg's dodecaphonic technique: for me it is the simplest possible "technique", if one can call it at all, and I am unsure how it can be basis for a musical composition. In order to define your music, not only parameters of tone-row are important, but also form, phrase design, chord forces, instrumentation, expression, philosophy, aesthetics, totality of personal style, and so on. That is obviously missing in the dodecaphony. )

*) 'his' or 'her'

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## opus1

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ollv said:


> for example prokofiev has composed 7 sonata - it is realy good for some people. also he composed dance of knights )) this is like of signature or face of composer. He proved, he was able ))


That is completely true.
But Prokofiev composed more than "signature themes". He has 10 piano sonatas, and each of them has several movements. Also 7th sonata has 3 movements. Which one do you think about?
The ballet "Romeo and Juliette" has 52 movements, one of them is the theme you talk about.

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## ollv

> That is completely true.
> But Prokofiev composed more than "signature themes".


1.please save etymology of questions, I would not like to lost global ideas of discussion ... but.
2. yes but procofiev cought the main idea (which we can call themes) in his more famous sonates )) it is realy themes.


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## ollv

but signature )) may be it is more inportant. Try to ask him /// real composers know about it without any questions


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## Tikoo Tuba

opus1 said:


> One has to think precisely opposite of what the universities teach you.
> To think outside of the box, completely independently.
> Any valuable thing that is made by the science or art is actually going to the depths of consciousness where no one has been, or in spite that it looked impossible to enter.


Of course , when building a box you think outside of it . And then it may be so contrived as to appear impossible to enter . But , hey , then some hapless crazy person can just stumble stoned through the secret door and emerge with a story to blabber on the streets , and the story is what art is made of .


----------



## ollv

> Also 7th sonata has 3 movements. Which one do you think about?


all movements hs the theme.I like 1, 3, also I would like to tell that Serge has composed good music but not only, there are bored compositios as for me )).


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

For me, the greatest works are ones which were composed with a "higher order of existence" in mind. For example, those composers who wrote music to the glory of their god somehow found inspiration beyond the ordinary.
In Western "classical" music, Bach's B minor mass is one such glorious example - a piece in which he clearly expressed his faith and his gratitude for being so gifted. The works of Victoria, too, which are often written to glorify the Virgin Mary, reach more deeply into his soul than his less expressive pieces.
I'm confining my remarks to the Judeo Christian heritage simply because that's what I know well - but I suspect this profoundness of expression to exist in other cultures where "worship" is the central tenet of the compositional process.

Opus1 - do you have a "belief system" which drives you?


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## mikeh375

Opus1, did you master techniques such as fugal writing, traditional tonal practice et al, before you embarked on a quest for an individual perspective? I contend that learning technique is a gateway to finding your own voice. By virtue of profound study, one can't help but learn about one's own proclivities as one also learns about options and how to control them, in fact, then employ them to one's own ends. Technique then becomes a guide in composing, pretty much the way scales and arpeggios become the underlying strength in the performance of a concerto. Technique for me, when used in the correct manner can also be a search tool to hunt out latent material in an idea, it is also a unifying force and the vehicle to self expression, giving a freedom to writing that is cohesive and the more potent for it. 
My apologies for labouring the point above, but when I was in my formative years, there was a trend in my Alma Mater (and most others), to eschew traditional techniques. This in my view was (and is) a great mistake for the reasons cited above, also because I found my depth of knowledge enabled me to cope with professional media work very easily indeed (at least the writing of it). So I'm curious to see to what extent you decided to master technique and its unifying capabilities.


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## opus1

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Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> For me, the greatest works are ones which were composed with a "higher order of existence" in mind. For example, those composers who wrote music to the glory of their god somehow found inspiration beyond the ordinary.
> In Western "classical" music, Bach's B minor mass is one such glorious example - a piece in which he clearly expressed his faith and his gratitude for being so gifted. The works of Victoria, too, which are often written to glorify the Virgin Mary, reach more deeply into his soul than his less expressive pieces.
> I'm confining my remarks to the Judeo Christian heritage simply because that's what I know well - but I suspect this profoundness of expression to exist in other cultures where "worship" is the central tenet of the compositional process.
> 
> Opus1 - do you have a "belief system" which drives you?


I completely agree with you.
Not only faith and religion but any source of higher order is very present in greatest works of the masters. A kind of idée fixe, almost having a pathological quality. That could be anything from religion to nationalism, love, philosophy, etc.
Yes, I have such a system as well.
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## opus1

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mikeh375 said:


> Opus1, did you master techniques such as fugal writing, traditional tonal practice et al, before you embarked on a quest for an individual perspective? I contend that learning technique is a gateway to finding your own voice. By virtue of profound study, one can't...


Yes, I did. I think it was one of the most important lessons I ever learned.
The fact is that when you face to write a baroque fugue, but the emphasis is laid on "to write as Bach would write", so to speak - to lure anyone hearing it that it could be Bach, but not Haendel nor Vivaldi nor Buxtehude, than your mind becomes extremely sharp. As I explained earlier: your mind must know exactly what "bachian" fugue IS NOT, in order to write as it would be.
Sharpening your mind and musicality in that way is as sharpening knife before use, than when you need to hit with it for the first time you will not spend time in darkness of unlimited possibilities of music design; your hit will be extremely precise, or, more precise than you would do without that sharpening.
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## Johann Sebastian Bach

opus1 said:


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Yes, I did. I think it was one of the most important lessons I ever learned.
> The fact is that when you face to write a baroque fugue, but the emphasis is laid on "to write as Bach would write", so to speak - to lure anyone hearing it that it could be Bach, but not Haendel nor Vivaldi nor Buxtehude, than your mind becomes extremely sharp. As I explained earlier: your mind must know exactly what "bachian" fugue IS NOT, in order to write as it would be.
> Sharpening your mind and musicality in that way is as sharpening knife before use, than when you need to hit with it for the first time you will not spend time in darkness of unlimited possibilities of music design; your hit will be extremely precise, or, more precise than you would do without that sharpening.


In the UK at least, such tuition is standard in Music Colleges and Universities (although my own tuition in fugue writing didn't get as far as the difference between Bach and Buxtehude stylistic characteristics).

Opus1 makes an excellent point in describing "what a bachian fugue IS NOT".

I referred earlier in this thread to my (extremely dominating) Music College composition tutor, who would often demand explanation for the purpose of every single note I'd written on a particular page. If I couldn't justify the reason for a particular note, she'd fly off the Haendel in a rage.

(I think it's fair to say that she was the main reason why I'm a professional conductor and not a professional composer - apart from the other reason (I wasn't actually very good at it.))


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

opus1 - I wonder why you're here, since the forum seems to be geared towards amateurs.

Some time ago, @Stomanek chided me, suggesting a professional conductor shouldn't have time to spend (he implied "wasted") on this forum. I can understand his point, partly because when you hide behind an avatar, you could pretend to be anything you like. (For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not suggesting this of you, because your replies ring true for me.)

I came on here because I'm now getting on a bit and have more leisure time. I wonder what your motivation is.

My conducting prof also taught me a valuable lesson, because he always had time for me - far more than his contract stated. I asked him once why he was so generous. His simple reply "pass it on" has become a mantra of mine. Is this part of your motivation for posting too?


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## opus1

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Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> opus1 - I wonder why you're here, since the forum seems to be geared towards amateurs.
> 
> Some time ago, @Stomanek chided me, suggesting a professional conductor shouldn't have time to spend (he implied "wasted") on this forum. I can understand his point, partly because when you hide behind an avatar, you could pretend to be anything you like. (For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not suggesting this of you, because your replies ring true for me.)
> 
> I came on here because I'm now getting on a bit and have more leisure time. I wonder what your motivation is.
> 
> My conducting prof also taught me a valuable lesson, because he always had time for me - far more than his contract stated. I asked him once why he was so generous. His simple reply "pass it on" has become a mantra of mine. Is this part of your motivation for posting too?


Composers use to sit in a complete isolation for hours, days, weeks... Perhaps I just need to communicate.
But what you say about wasting time can perhaps be true: on the beginning of this thread I spent time to answer some ridiculous questions and accusations, that motivated me to leave the forum. (These posts doesn't exist any more, deleted by moderators).
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## ollv

opus1 said:


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> I spent time to answer some ridiculous questions and accusations, that motivated me to leave the forum.


 I have reviewed my messages and looks like it can be interpreted as rude accusations, I am so sorry .. firstly I am not a native in english, second .. I tried to use abstract form, not your personally . Like of : .. "if you blah blah", it can be changed to "if I blah blah blah, I can not be .." smth. Anyway just sorry if it confused your. I generally able to say something impolite on my mother language. It is just abstract light discussion 
. I am so sorry again ))


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## mikeh375

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> opus1 - I wonder why you're here, since the forum seems to be geared towards amateurs.
> 
> I came on here because I'm now getting on a bit and have more leisure time. I wonder what your motivation is.
> 
> My conducting prof also taught me a valuable lesson, because he always had time for me - far more than his contract stated. I asked him once why he was so generous. His simple reply "pass it on" has become a mantra of mine. Is this part of your motivation for posting too?


Hi Papa Bach,
This was my motivation too. I did 30 years composing in high pressure pro work and have a lot of studio experience with live players and orchestras so can pass on a few words of wisdom here and there.
Regarding alma maters, this anecdote sums it up for me as I was there. In the canteen at lunch I sat next to a composer who was always winning internal prizes. I had been studying Oldroyd's Technique and Spirit of Fugue and had the tome with me. He informed me that he had never studied fugue (nor counterpoint) and had no intention to. Now depending on your viewpoint, that is either the confidence of genius, foolhardy or perhaps misguided. My viewpoint, subsequently borne out, was that he was no genius and was put at a disadvantage because of not working to acquire technical prowess. The point also being that he was encouraged by the Alma mater to write freely which I believe to be irresponsible, especially for a young composer trying to find themselves. 
Things have probably changed now, but in my day, composition teaching was hell bent on pushing the avant garde which is fine, and in some cases perhaps the best way but not everyone is a genius.

I was suspicious about opus1, especially as he/she is hiding behind 0's and 1's but having read the responses, I do believe this person to be a composer. I hope we have a reveal sometime soon.


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## Vasks

mikeh375 said:


> I had been studying Oldroyd's *Technique and Spirit of Fugue* and had the tome with me.


Great book!!!!!!!


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## adrien

I've just been reading through this most interesting thread. Firstly, thanks opus1 for coming here and putting time into responding to the questions.

I have a question also.

Do you think that the need for originality, perhaps fuelled by the fear of being called a plagiarist has had *undue* influence over people's work?


----------



## adrien

I have another question.

Yesterday I listened to Ligeti's devils staircase. I actually thought it was pretty cool, although I probably won't listen to it again.

It made me wonder whether using an algorithm to derive notes was a worthwhile pursuit. It seems to be used to absolve the composer of responsibility for what they write - just apply the algorithm and publish the result and it's not your fault 

Or is this not how it is even used?


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## opus1

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adrien said:


> I have a question also.
> 
> Do you think that the need for originality, perhaps fuelled by the fear of being called a plagiarist has had *undue* influence over people's work?


It is ridiculous to ask "who composed Beethoven's Fifth?", but it is absolutely seriously if you would ask "who composed Albinoni's Adagio?". It is indeed fascinating that if a composer creates an extremely beautiful work, the time in that case, as we would look at it on a time-scale, ceases to exist. Indeed we are facing a new cultural period when the time of the art doesn't exist in the same sense as we use to perceive it (as chronos).

On the contrary, we must admit that all new, fantastic and ingenious works are created as a result of independent personalities, a totally (perhaps almost totally) autonomous souls and minds. Thus, an unique piece of art is always more valued than its replica. And it is indeed extremely hard to make a new, independent, and totally autonomous work of art. For that a genius is needed. Also, the more independent and difficult-to-replicate work, the more valuable work is (example: Turangalila vs 4'33).

Of course, there is a dreadful feeling of creators who see that their works are not autonomous but somehow replicas of another's mind. I would say that creating a replica is as hard as to create the original if not more hard, since the copyist needs to complete dissect another's mind, so to say, to think analogous as the original mind, to achieve the same mental and emotional algorithm as the original. It is very, very hard.

What you describe is definitely a hard question and unresolved issue. If one wants to create a completely independent and unique work, but in the process of its creation the composer understands deeply that it is impossible for him, than it is going to be extremely horrific to take another narrow way, being compared (oneself or by others) with the extremely successful and independent pieces of art, which have been already tested for and survived, for hundreds of years.

Finally, it is important to understand that in each period of time we have a large load of amateurs and weak artists, and on the another side a few, minority of geniuses. In my opinion both are necessary for the development of the art.

So to answer directly: it is equally hard to face unknown void and darkness of an imaginary unique art, or to take another, very narrow way for replicating.

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## opus1

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adrien said:


> I have another question.
> 
> Yesterday I listened to Ligeti's devils staircase. I actually thought it was pretty cool, although I probably won't listen to it again.
> 
> It made me wonder whether using an algorithm to derive notes was a worthwhile pursuit. It seems to be used to absolve the composer of responsibility for what they write - just apply the algorithm and publish the result and it's not your fault
> 
> Or is this not how it is even used?


For several years I have been trying to understand the algorithm in music and an eventual use of the automata. I have come to the conclusion that it is not needed for my work, since I haven't seen or heard any musical work that is created by automata and that impressed me immensely.
The rationalising society of post gallileo has tried to define everything in art as numbers, but still have failed. "Another book is out, that explains in detail Das Musikalisches Opfer, oh no!" -feeling is constantly bothering me.

I believe that you can crate an algorithm of any piece of art, but that would be equal as trying to be Bach , by writing another line of code that would produce if not 7th Brandenburg concerto, but that could produce an infinite number of diverse Brandenburg concertos. That could be perhaps a work for God and not for humans.

On the contrary, what makes a great piece of art is

- -	A totally new proposal of constrains, not originating in any other present works to date, and
- -	Human intervention in creation, by using extremes of consciousness (logical thinking) and sub-consciousness (dreamlike states, improvisation, finding by intuition, etc).

In both cases above the algorithmic process is not applicable. You can't create an algorithm of unknown parameters, and above all, a big question is how to create algorithm that has some kind of "failure": dreamlike states, melody found by error, human intervention etc. It is very known that the greatest pieces of art have in common combination of both perfect shapes on one side and unfinished parts due to human imperfection on the another side.

A total perfectness is displayed as pure sinus tone or geometrical shapes. But with the human intervention of creators that create 'imperfect' piece of art we (participants of that art) have a desire to achieve that imaginary perfectness by further processing the 'unfinished' works of art. Therefore the art is only-always created when we have both creators and participants of the art.
When you hear a musical work that comes so deep in your soul, mind and emotions, that initiates with extreme the inner parts of your personality, so strong as if you would face your death, or birth, or if you confront yourself with the perfect being, or similar to that..., than that music is working on you by removing the veil of unknown and displaying it to you the world as it is. (Such state would be experienced by a blind person that suddenly has got the sight).

TLDR,

But! - we can't underestimate a need for algorithmic thinking and automata. Some composers could imagine complete pieces, to remember them in the completeness and to notate them. For that is needed automata. Also, automata is needed as a filling. It is like knowing that here and there should come this or that kind of music. But instead of sitting down and thinking if it will be a half note or dotted quarter, you take and algorithm that fills in that idea quickly. That is why some composers could create so large amount of great works.

But, the primary idea is needed first, and there no algorithm can help.

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## arpeggio

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> opus1 - I wonder why you're here, since the forum seems to be geared towards amateurs.


I am an amateur and even I have gotten into trouble with some of the experts who lurk around here


----------



## adrien

thanks for your answers / insight.

I guess I am on a path towards solidifying in my own mind, a reason to even compose, given that I am very new to it, and my work to date is purposefully quite simple/simplistic.

My main goals to compose are not to

* make something that sounds entirely different to everything that has come before.
* make listeners confused or angry (there's enough of that in daily life)
* make something that appeals to people on a purely intellectual level

But instead to

* make something that people can relate to, melodies that people will go away humming along to.
* make something that people want to listen to more than once
* make something that causes people to feel emotion / alter their heart rate (in any direction)

Maybe these goals will change in me over time.

I don't want to copy other composers melodies etc, but I don't want to write alien music that can only truly be appreciated by spiders.

I think a lot of exploration has taken place over the last 100 years or so especially, and a lot of things have been written that in a traditional (prior to "the new music") sense are alien, and to many unpalatable or even considered as noise. Yet it feels like these pieces get a reverence that is inexplicable to many people.

If you go to rottentomatoes.com and compare the critic scores vs the other viewers' score. In many cases, critics score a film highly but the public hate it - and vice versa. Maybe we need a rottentomatoes.com for music.

It seems though that if a composer wants to get a performance, you have to please the critics not the masses. So the situation is self-referential and self-fulfilling. I don't know if this will lead to a resurgence in symphonic music and performance though, more to the continued decline of the fates of orchestras.


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## Vasks

adrien said:


> It seems though that if a composer wants to get a performance, you have to please the critics not the masses.


REALITY: if a composer wants to get a performance, your music must connect with performers/conductors.


----------



## adrien

Vasks said:


> REALITY: if a composer wants to get a performance, your music must connect with performers/conductors.


yes you're right - or music directors. Those who program the music, or those who can influence them. I should have been more exact instead of using the word critics, although those are often the same people.

So while I have a number of colleagues (other players) in orchestras who have said they would like to play my stuff, when a conductor / music director auditions the music (which normally entails skipping though the music, rather than listening from start to finish) it doesn't get any further.

I know people are pushed for time, and I know it's tempting to skip through, but as soon as you do that, you miss any transitions, buildups etc etc, you don't travel the same emotional journey through a piece, in fact it takes all the emotion right out of it. If the emotion is your biggest selling point, then you've lost that. If the piece doesn't grip someone in the first 5 - 10s, then it's pretty much doomed, so it means you can't write anything in the first 10s that isn't an immediate hook.

p.s. this is not to claim that I have even written anything worthy of a performance, but I do see the skipping and I know what it does to an audition. I don't think even Beethoven symphonies would pass that test.


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## opus1

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adrien said:


> My main goals to compose are not to
> 
> * make something that sounds entirely different to everything that has come before.
> * make listeners confused or angry (there's enough of that in daily life)
> * make something that appeals to people on a purely intellectual level
> 
> But instead to
> 
> * make something that people can relate to, melodies that people will go away humming along to.
> * make something that people want to listen to more than once
> * make something that causes people to feel emotion / alter their heart rate (in any direction).


In my opinion that is insufficient in order to know how and what to compose.

First, I want to clarify something I wrote before: a genius creates complete independent works. What I mean by that is not, in our case music, something never heard before. If such is a case, we should not be able to call Tchaikovsky as genius, since his music doesn't sound entirely different to everything that has come before. What I mean is: a completely independent mind of genius that can create a unique and separate world of music, which none has done before. You can hear that something is Brahms, since his unique music mechanics works in such way that we know that it is a brahms.

The 20th century is a period of ego maniacs. Just see what happened after Le Sacre and you will understand. Even such big names as Prokofiev, Ravel, Debussy wanted to be the next breakthrough with Diaghilev. Later on we have just extremes after extremes. Finally we have the end of 20th century with music, and art in general, defined only as HOW but not as WHAT. You go to composer seminars and you just hear How music was done. You will almost exclusively never hear What that music is. It is clear that in the ancient Greece the big deal was put on Techne in their arts, however their music was defined diametrically opposite than the music from our time: it was strongly defined as What.

Concerning your wishes: that is a very good list of fine proposals, but how do you discern your music from a random one that has the same proposal? For instance, Justin Bieber has the same proposal: people use to listen his music more than once, they use to sing and hum it and they feel emotional.

The crucial point in my development (as a composer) was when I as very young understood that there is an ideal, perfect world of art (music) and that all my artistic endeavours must relate to that ideal. If you ask me to describe it, I don't think I would be able to do it, but such one definitely exists.

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## adrien

opus1 said:


> In my opinion that is insufficient in order to know how and what to compose.


I agree, this is not intended to be everything required to define what to compose. Just some guiding principles.



opus1 said:


> First, I want to clarify something I wrote before: a genius creates complete independent works. What I mean by that is not, in our case music, something never heard before. If such is a case, we should not be able to call Tchaikovsky as genius, since his music doesn't sound entirely different to everything that has come before. What I mean is: a completely independent mind of genius that can create a unique and separate world of music, which none has done before. You can hear that something is Brahms, since his unique music mechanics works in such way that we know that it is a brahms.


OK, so does this mean that for a composer to have value their work must be identifiable as theirs? Clearly that would have to be something that develops over time, as the first piece is not enough to be identifiable as being the work of a particular composer, as nothing has come before from that composer.



opus1 said:


> The 20th century is a period of ego maniacs. Just see what happened after Le Sacre and you will understand. Even such big names as Prokofiev, Ravel, Debussy wanted to be the next breakthrough with Diaghilev. Later on we have just extremes after extremes. Finally we have the end of 20th century with music, and art in general, defined only as HOW but not as WHAT. You go to composer seminars and you just hear How music was done. You will almost exclusively never hear What that music is. It is clear that in the ancient Greece the big deal was put on Techne in their arts, however their music was defined diametrically opposite than the music from our time: it was strongly defined as What.
> 
> Concerning your wishes: that is a very good list of fine proposals, but how do you discern your music from a random one that has the same proposal? For instance, Justin Bieber has the same proposal: people use to listen his music more than once, they use to sing and hum it and they feel emotional.


Firstly I don't feel a huge need to discern my work from any other work. Apart from not wanting to copy, I think it's an impossible task to write a work that by design is discerned from all other works, as nobody has enough time in their life to even listen to all other works. My background is in software engineering. It's impossible to write software that does not infringe on many patents. It's also impossible to even read all patents.

If that were to prevent us writing software, there would be no new software. Same with music. In order for us to compose new music, we have to decide whether we care enough about it being unique enough. If we care a lot, we may go to lengths to make sure that our composition cannot be challenged as being a copy of others, and it seems to me that this leads to music which is highly complex and largely random. The alternative is to not care so much, write what you like the sound of, and risk being called derivative, or accused of going over old ground (as if that by definition is a worthless pursuit - a claim I disagree with).

It's interesting you raise Bieber. One cannot deny he has succeeded in getting his work consumed by a great many consumers of music. Overall I feel that orchestral music now only occupies a very small niche in music overall. So its market share (for lack of a better term) is about 1% of what it was 100 years ago. This is by any yardstick an enormous failure. I personally feel modern "classical" by and large departed from what the public wanted and headed off to the far reaches, not really caring whether it alienated listeners or not. The listeners moved on to pop, rock and film music.



opus1 said:


> The crucial point in my development (as a composer) was when I as very young understood that there is an ideal, perfect world of art (music) and that all my artistic endeavours must relate to that ideal. If you ask me to describe it, I don't think I would be able to do it, but such one definitely exists.


I guess it is the natural internal musical world of each individual. We all have a lot more in common than we have different.


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## Tikoo Tuba

_Finally, it is important to understand that in each period of time we have a large load of amateurs and weak artists, and on the another side a few, minority of geniuses. In my opinion both are necessary for the development of the art._... Opus1

Ok in essence ... rather a bi-polar expression though .

*om*


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## Josquin13

Hi,

I'm wondering if there's a general protocol on how commissions work? (1) Do composers decide on the price of the work commissioned after being approached, or do they generally agree or not agree to a price that has been offered to them?, and (2) are they generally open to ideas in regards to subject matter and/or genre or type of music for a commission, or not? (3) Is it possible to go around the composer's agent, and agree on a better price?, and (4) Would a composer be inclined to create a substantial piece for less money, if it was guaranteed to be performed at a festival? The reason I ask these questions is because I'd like to commission a significant work one day, if I can find the right composer--that is someone whose work I greatly admire, but I don't have unlimited funds, unfortunately.

Oh yes, one more question--after the commission is completed, does the person who has commissioned the work generally own any partial rights to it? For example, if the music were to get recorded, or become played in concert halls, does the commissioner receive anything in return?

Thanks for you reply.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Do you find that your most inspiring and creative moments are fueled by misery or other strong emotions?

I find it difficult to compose meaningful music when I'm in a happy place, so I just wonder.

Is it possible to be a well adjusted and "happy" composer?


----------



## opus1

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Josquin13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm wondering if there's a general protocol on how commissions work? (1) Do composers decide on the price of the work commissioned after being approached, or do they generally agree or not agree to a price that has been offered to them?, and (2) are they generally open to ideas in regards to subject matter and/or genre or type of music for a commission, or not? (3) Is it possible to go around the composer's agent, and agree on a better price?, and (4) Would a composer be inclined to create a substantial piece for less money, if it was guaranteed to be performed at a festival? The reason I ask these questions is because I'd like to commission a significant work one day, if I can find the right composer--that is someone whose work I greatly admire, but I don't have unlimited funds, unfortunately.
> 
> Oh yes, one more question--after the commission is completed, does the person who has commissioned the work generally own any partial rights to it? For example, if the music were to get recorded, or become played in concert halls, does the commissioner receive anything in return?
> 
> Thanks for you reply.


Some composers are highly protected by their publishers and there is a more strict way for commissioning. Other composers, particularly those that don't have strict publishing contracts or without publisher are more open for various ideas.

1 - if it is a fair price, there is no need for refusing the fee. Usually the composing hours decide the final fee; for instance: how many weeks or months it would take to complete that composition from scratch. However, composers with publishers are not involved in the negotiations, but publishers only, and they use a fixed fee, and consequently it is good for their composers. And it turns out to be the correct fee (for amount of work put into piece). I have never heard of overpaid composers, but the opposite is very common.
2 - in the most cases composers are not open to ideas that are too different form their artistic profiles; on the other side commissioners usually commission works because they like just that particular composer's music, so they know what to expect.
3 - For a high profiled composer it is difficult because that composer's schedule is filled with prioritized commissions, which are organized by the publisher. A new work for Berliner Phil is on the higher priority than a piece for unknown ensemble with little exposure. On the other side, composers are indeed willing to write for their close friends, so that they show their love or friendship. So, to be a good friend or admirer can help, but only if a composer has enough free time.
4 - I don't think so. There is an amount of time and effort involved in creation, and it is approximately fixed. If there is a performance guaranteed than it has the higher priority. The better musicians, even more priority. If there is no performance planned, than there is a big question why we have the commission in the first place.
5 - in the most cases no, but it is not impossible. Only non-published composers have 100% rights, and if they are published, the copyright is left to the publishers that actually own all rights, except the intellectual one. That is sad somehow. If a composer offers the copyright to commissioner, than the composing fee should be higher, since the commissioner can re-use the commissioned work to get income from it (70 years after the creator's death).
///
In short: busy and published composers are protected by agents and it is possible to commission a work if you offer a significant sum. For less busy composers and with agents that are not so efficient, it is easier to approach with private commissioning if one has idea for performance, and if the fee is sustainable for that work. In the third category goes unknown composers and younger generations that are willing to compose even for a smaller amount hoping that it would give them more opportunities in the future. In the fourth category are all others who compose for free (even from the category 3), either because they believe in "the great art", or they have amazing funds, or they do it as a hobby, or they do it for their own personal need or development.
To commission works from the category 3 and 4 is questionable, since in that case the 'private' commissioner must have a very good knowledge in the contemporary music and art to recognise truly talented and original composers. Likewise, the busy and published composers will not secure the quality (because the publishers are businesses), so if you want to commission safe, than go for the great names and older generations.
My suggestion would be to find one composer that is somehow less known, who creates music that sounds truly unique and amazing (also for you), and to establish a longer relationship, instead of short one.

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## opus1

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E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Do you find that your most inspiring and creative moments are fueled by misery or other strong emotions?
> 
> I find it difficult to compose meaningful music when I'm in a happy place, so I just wonder.
> 
> Is it possible to be a well adjusted and "happy" composer?


Everyone is different.
Some struggle and need mental and emotional pain to create. Another have ecstatic feelings.
I think I count myself in the first group.

Somebody can be very rich as a plumber, and another one is getting bliss only in philosophising.
So, it depends.
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## opus1

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adrien said:


> It's interesting you raise Bieber. One cannot deny he has succeeded in getting his work consumed by a great many consumers of music. Overall I feel that orchestral music now only occupies a very small niche in music overall. So its market share (for lack of a better term) is about 1% of what it was 100 years ago. This is by any yardstick an enormous failure. I personally feel modern "classical" by and large departed from what the public wanted and headed off to the far reaches, not really caring whether it alienated listeners or not. The listeners moved on to pop, rock and film music.


That Justin Bieber and Rhianna are more worldwide popular than Mozart is not Mozart's failure, but, in my opinion, a sign of dangerous decadence of our society.

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## arpeggio

opus1 said:


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> 
> That Justin Bieber and Rhianna are more worldwide popular than Mozart is not Mozart's failure, but, in my opinion, a sign of dangerous decadence of our society.
> 
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It is interesting that many think classical music is dying and they want to blame the composer for the state of affairs. If composers composed the right type of music all of our problems would be solved. How music is published and marketed has just as much to do with the state of classical music. In America I know of several composers who own their own publishing companies in order to get around the byzantine practices of the publishing industry.


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## ollv

It is enough strange to compare Tchaikovsky and Brahms, especially talking about Tchaikovsky that he is not a genius. I am not sure that we are able to talk about geniusly .. what is it? Realy there is not a formal criteria which able to talk us about it, especially now, when music it is bit different thing. But as for me Tchaykovskiy more interesting than Brahms, because there are many thems composed by him, dance of little swans for example.
Also your was talking about algoorithms, I would like to tell that modern algorithms in computer it is a bit different. It is not primitive deterministic process, in AI technology e.g., and I would like to tell that in near future computer will be able to "compose music" in context you talking about. In context in which themes is not neccesary, and in which it is mystification.


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## adrien

arpeggio said:


> It is interesting that many think classical music is dying and they want to blame the composer for the state of affairs. If composers composed the right type of music all of our problems would be solved. How music is published and marketed has just as much to do with the state of classical music. In America I know of several composers who own their own publishing companies in order to get around the byzantine practices of the publishing industry.


Yes it doesn't make sense to blame the composers for what orchestras play. They don't generally make those decisions. But they do impact what is available to play when it comes to new works.

As for whether classical music is dying or not. Many if not most orchestras are on life-support relying on state or corporate sponsorship to survive.


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