# Harmonic styles throughout The Ring cycle.



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

My apologizes for yet another thread about The Ring, but it's kind of a big part of my life right now. I've spent dozens and dozens of hours listening to and watching it in the past month. And I still haven't even touched Götterdämmerung!

But anyways, I'm curious about the musical styles throughout the operas. Das Rheingold seemed very modern, very chromatic in it's use of melody and harmony, and then Die Walküre was much more typical romantic.. more like Brahms or Mahler. Like, really rich, gorgeous, luscious music that is easy on the ear even on first listening. Then in Siegfried we go back to the chromatic, shifty, very modern sound of Das Rheingold. What is going on here? Is this an intentional harmonic structure throughout the cycle? From what I've gleaned of Götterdämmerung, it again is like Die Walküre, more traditional, more tonally stable late romantic music, as opposed to this Really-out-there chromaticism found in Das Rheingold and Siegfried.

Any insights?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm not a musician, so I speak under correction. The standard take on Wagner's Ring harmony is that it becomes steadily more advanced as the cycle goes on. The music of Rheingold is audacious in many ways, but I don't know how far it extends the boundaries of tonality (the famous prelude, for instance, is 136 bars of straight E flat major chord--minimalism _avant la lettre_.

The big advance actually came with Tristan, and was then applied to those portions of the Ring composed afterwards: the third act of Siegfried and the whole of Götterdämmerung. That final opera actually features some of Wagner's most complex, advanced harmonic experiments, as the accumulated motifs off the entire cycle collide with each other in dense, uneasy combinations.

It's true that, because Götterdämmerung was the first opera Wagner planned out, some of the basic musical ideas (like the four-square Gibichung theme) hail back to his Lohengrin days. But on the whole, I would say that Götterdämmerung's music shows Wagner at his most daring and sophisticated.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I find the music of the first two acts of Siegfried to be much more complicated than the third act... I had to listen to those acts over 10 times before I began to like them, and follow where the music was going.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

As I said, I don't have the background to offer any in-depth analysis. Maybe some of our more musically informed members will weigh in on this issue?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> I find the music of the first two acts of Siegfried to be much more complicated than the third act... I had to listen to those acts over 10 times before I began to like them, and follow where the music was going.


 Strange... You know that Wagner stopped composing the Ring cycle at the end of Siegfried's second act, paused for years, composed Tristan und Isolde in the meantime, came up with the revolutionary Tristan chord, and *then* composed Siegfried's third act and Götterdämmerung, right? Like amfortas, I'm not a musician, but I can clearly distinguish the much more sophisticated writing of Siegfried third act and Götterdämmerung. When I first listened to the Ring I wasn't even aware of the distinction, and listened to Siegfried in one sitting, went along with acts I and II thinking, "OK, OK, that's fine although a little boring" and then when 3rd act started I went "WWWOOOOWWWW!!!!!" Are you serious that you don't see the difference? I believe it is quite explicit. It may help if you get one of those CDs that explain the leitmotifs and their evolution. They get way more complex starting with Siegfried third act, merge, fuse, get into secondary and tertiary forms, evolve... it's all fascinating. The Ring is a spectacular creation, but it really takes off with Siegfried third act.

Here, get these lectures by Deryck Cooke and the distinction will become clearer to you:










16 bucks on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-...424H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311546320&sr=8-1


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Are you serious that you don't see the difference? I believe it is quite explicit. It may help if you get one of those CDs that explain the leitmotifs and their evolution. They get way more complex starting with Siegfried third act, merge, fuse, get into secondary and tertiary forms, evolve... it's all fascinating. The Ring is a spectacular creation, but it really takes off with Siegfried third act.


In fairness to our friend macgeek, I do want to acknowledge that there are varied and exciting things going on musically throughout the Ring. I take him at his word that he found the first two acts of Siegfried more challenging than the third--perhaps it's partly a matter of prior experience and what sort of music you're attuned to.

It might be interesting to both ground and deepen the discussion by offering specific passages (accompanied by audio samples or YouTube clips) that intrigue or perplex us. That way, even if the musical analysis is still shaky, we would at least give each other a clearer idea of the kinds of moments we're talking about.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

It is true that in the past few days, as I've become more and more familiar with the opera as a whole, I've noticed several incredible things in the third act. The harmonic changes, particularly during Wotan's dialogue with Erda, are nothing short of astounding and chilling.

I think maybe I need to get to know the whole thing more to have a clearer awareness of the difference between the first two acts and the third. I have no doubt I've missed a lot of what has gone on in the third act.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

There was a twenty year gap between the composition of the music of Act II and Act III of Siegfried. This is the same amount of time that separates Beethoven's Pathetique and Hammerklavier piano sonatas. Beethoven expanded his harmonic range, his breadth of development of themes, and his treatment of the piano as an instrument during this time. Wagner also didn't stay in one place during these twenty years.

Wagner broke with his own style during the writing of Tristan, and many "progressives" complained that his career after Tristan was a return to his previous style. But he didn't go all the way back - when you get to Gotterdammerung check out the scene with the Norns, the scene where Hagen meets Alberich, and the scene where Brunhilde, Hagen and Gunther plot out the death of Siegfried. There's also a recurring leitmotiv in Gotterdammerung based on the Ring leitmotiv that seems to be able to modulate in any direction. I used to know the name that Deryck Cooke gave to it...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> It might be interesting to both ground and deepen the discussion by offering specific passages (accompanied by audio samples or YouTube clips) that intrigue or perplex us. That way, even if the musical analysis is still shaky, we would at least give each other a clearer idea of the kinds of moments we're talking about.


Sure, but I'm not qualified to do that. That's why I gave him the Deryck Cooke reference, because Mr. Cooke is, and it is all spelled out in details, in this exact way: with plenty of specific passages to exemplify what he's teaching. It's a series of lectures on 2 CDs, and he plays the specific passages from the Solti recordings. Have you listened to these lectures? They are fascinating, and make it all very clear.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I'll definitely listen to the Cooke lectures after I familiarize myself with the music of Götterdämmerung.

If the big gap was between acts II and III of Siegfried, then how come the astronomical gap between the third act of Die Walküre and the first act of Siegfried? What happened there? Seriously, I was in love with Die Walküre after four hearings or so, and I've already heard Siegfried over ten times, and still don't "love" it completely. I find the music of the first act in particular to be incredibly dense and difficult to grow to like. Only recently have I finally begun to find certain sections memorable and go back to listen to them. And same with the second act. The parts I'm beginning to love are Mime's music when he says "I brought you up, etc, etc, I gave you food and drink, I made you toys and a horn," and the music when he says "This, your mother gave me, for care, food, and effort, etc" when he brings out the sword. I'm also starting to like Siegfried's sword forging song.

And in the second act, I've basically grown to really like everything from the point that Mime leaves Siegfried alone by the dragons cave and onwards. "Dass der mein vater nicht ist" and onwards. All the bright forest music and bird effects are amazing, and then the highlight of the act for me is after he stabs Fafner, and Fafner says "Who are you, bold child, who has pierced my heart? etc etc." When he says "Your brain did not brood upon what you have done," I get chills, thanks to the incredible music. The descending chromatic line Wagner gave him, in counterpoint with brass playing the curse of the ring... it couldn't be more perfect.

But regardless, it's been WAY harder for me to grow to like these two acts, in comparison to Die Walküre. It seems there was an astronomical leap between these operas, in dissonance, chromaticism, modernism.. etc.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Sure, but I'm not qualified to do that. That's why I gave him the Deryck Cooke reference, because Mr. Cooke is, and it is all spelled out in details, in this exact way: with plenty of specific passages to exemplify what he's teaching. It's a series of lectures on 2 CDs, and he plays the specific passages from the Solti recordings. Have you listened to these lectures? They are fascinating, and make it all very clear.


I first encountered Deryck Cooke's analysis at about the same time I first heard the Solti Ring (too many years ago to mention). You're absolutely right, it is a tremendous introduction to the Ring's musical motifs and the ways they're introduced, developed, transformed, and combined throughout the cycle.

Sadly, as Cooke himself acknowledged, this lecture is only an introduction. Early in his talk, he points out that an exhaustive study discussing every use of the various leitmotifs throughout the cycle would be an enormous task. But this in fact was the challenge he was planning to take on, as the second volume of his unfinished book "I Saw the World End." It's very sad for Wagner studies that he never lived long enough to tackle this gargantuan project.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

macgeek2005 said:


> If the big gap was between acts II and III of Siegfried, then how come the astronomical gap between the third act of Die Walküre and the first act of Siegfried? What happened there? Seriously, I was in love with Die Walküre after four hearings or so, and I've already heard Siegfried over ten times, and still don't "love" it completely. . . It seems there was an astronomical leap between these operas, in dissonance, chromaticism, modernism.. etc.


Again, I can't attempt a musical analysis. But it strikes me that the musical differences between Die Walküre and Siegfried--and what may determine why different listeners find one work or the other more accessible--stem from the contrasting natures of the stories themselves.

Die Walküre is (for me, at least) at once the most moving and the most exciting of the Ring operas. There is a wildly romantic theme of "love on run"--strong passions springing up and flowering under adverse circumstances and hot pursuit. The fierce, romantic beauty of the score reflects this urgency.

Siegfried has a more deliberate rhythm. It is in a sense more open ended--a quest, a journey of discovery, with strongly grotesque and comic elements along the way that complicate our reactions. Perhaps because the emotional dynamics are a little more ambivalent, the music may not always provide the clear emotional cues that we find in Die Walküre.

Again, I realize I'm not being specific about the musical means by which these differences are effected--just trying to suggest why they may arise in the first place.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

My biggest problem with both Siegfried and Götterdammerung is that I just can't stand Siegfried. I'm hoping that my advanced age (since the last time I saw the opera) and maybe some comments and study--or maybe a different production--will help. And the fact that one usually has to dig deep into the disbelief suspension, because the role is so difficult to sing that only the mature ones can handle it.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

FragendeFrau said:


> My biggest problem with both Siegfried and Götterdammerung is that I just can't stand Siegfried. I'm hoping that my advanced age (since the last time I saw the opera) and maybe some comments and study--or maybe a different production--will help. And the fact that one usually has to dig deep into the disbelief suspension, because the role is so difficult to sing that only the mature ones can handle it.


I've long felt that Siegfried and Salome are the two most difficult roles in opera to cast convincingly. Both require extraordinarily powerful dramatic voices in the bodies of attractive teenagers.

For that reason, I've had that same problem with suspension of disbelief in every Siegfried production I've seen. On video, Chereau's Walkure is unsurpassed, but the Siegfried and Gotterdammerung are marred by the presence of Manfred Jung, whom I've always thought of as "that funny little man." The Otto Schenk Met and Harry Kupfer Bayreuth productions both feature Siegfried Jerusalem in the main role; he is not egregiously unbelievable, but still comes off as no better than acceptable. Then you get offerings like the Stuttgart multi-director cycle, where they throw in the towel on making Siegfried even remotely heroic and go out of their to make him ridiculous (a rotund grunger in Siegfried; a milquetoasty nerd in Gotterdammerung).

I will be very interested to see if the upcoming Met production with Gary Lehman fares any better.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> I've long felt that Siegfried and Salome are the two most difficult roles in opera to cast convincingly. Both require extraordinarily powerful dramatic voices in the bodies of attractive teenagers.


Don't forget Parsifal. He's what, 12?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Don't forget Parsifal. He's what, 12?


Yes, but Parsifal is not nearly as difficult a role to sing as Siegfried, either in length or vocal strain (no forging song for *him*!). In fact I remember hearing an interview once, years ago (it might have been with Lauritz Melchior, but don't quote me on that), where the point was made that Wagner went a bit overboard in creating his great hero, attributing the character's superhuman abilities to the poor singers who would have to embody him. Then later, when reconceiving his hero (and Parsifal, despite its very different Christian sources and setting, is in many ways an extension of the Ring and its themes), he very consciously designed the role on a much more manageable scale. The story may be apocryphal, but I do think it reflects the relative difficulty of the two roles.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

FragendeFrau said:


> My biggest problem with both Siegfried and Götterdammerung is that I just can't stand Siegfried. I'm hoping that my advanced age (since the last time I saw the opera) and maybe some comments and study--or maybe a different production--will help. And the fact that one usually has to dig deep into the disbelief suspension, because the role is so difficult to sing that only the mature ones can handle it.


I very much regret making the 1990 Met my first exposure to the Ring, Siegfried Jerusalem is intolerably annoying as Siegfried. It actually took me *three* days to finish Gotterdammerung, which is very difficult to get through if you are not at all sympathetic to Siegfried and Brunnhilde, by Act 3 I was actually yelling at Jerusalem and Behrens to JUST DIE ALREADY. Thankfully the Solti later rescued Gotterdammerung for me and is possibly my favorite part of the cycle now.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I very much regret making the 1990 Met my first exposure to the Ring, Siegfried Jerusalem is intolerably annoying as Siegfried. It actually took me *three* days to finish Gotterdammerung, which is very difficult to get through if you are not at all sympathetic to Siegfried and Brunnhilde, by Act 3 I was actually yelling at Jerusalem and Behrens to JUST DIE ALREADY. Thankfully the Solti later rescued Gotterdammerung for me and is possibly my favorite part of the cycle now.


The Solti Ring was my *first* encounter with the cycle, so for me Siegfried was Wolfgang Windgassen--somewhat dry of voice, but thrillingly characterized. The visuals were left up to my imagination.

Understandably, no production I've seen on stage or video has ever matched that experience.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

amfortas said:


> I've long felt that Siegfried and Salome are the two most difficult roles in opera to cast convincingly. Both require extraordinarily powerful dramatic voices in the bodies of attractive teenagers.


And then you get the Mehta Ring with Lance Ryan who is physically convincing but can't really sing it and always has to be standing somewhere where he can keep his eyes firmly fixed on the conductor.

I think Jerusalem in the Barenboim ring was the best - he was much better than in the Met one, and even managed to make Siegfried quite sympathetic (usually I just want to slap him and teach him some manners)


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> , and even managed to make Siegfried quite sympathetic (usually I just want to slap him and teach him some manners)


:lol:

In many ways he is along the lines of the typical 'hero' in the context of ancient Norse/Greek/Roman mythology. You'd probably want to occasionally slap Heracles, Helgi Hundingsbani and Achilles too.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I'd say that in visual media Siegfried Jerusalem is the least bad one, especially in the Barenboim version. Not ideal, but least bad.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Couchie said:


> I very much regret making the 1990 Met my first exposure to the Ring, Siegfried Jerusalem is intolerably annoying as Siegfried. It actually took me *three* days to finish Gotterdammerung, which is very difficult to get through if you are not at all sympathetic to Siegfried and Brunnhilde, by Act 3 I was actually yelling at Jerusalem and Behrens to JUST DIE ALREADY. Thankfully the Solti later rescued Gotterdammerung for me and is possibly my favorite part of the cycle now.


There is a Solti DVD of the ring?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> There is a Solti DVD of the ring?


No. The Solti Ring is a studio recording. There's this clip, though.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aksel said:


> No. The Solti Ring is a studio recording. There's this clip, though.


Aksel probably knows this, but just to clarify further for other readers: The clip is from a ninety-minute documentary, _The Golden Ring_, which the BBC made during the taping of _Gotterdammerung_. There are several musical excerpts, as well as insights into the laborious process of making the first complete Ring recording. If you're already a fan of the Solti Ring, you may want to get this as well, since it's the only real visual testament of that project available.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I'd say that in visual media Siegfried Jerusalem is the least bad one, especially in the Barenboim version. Not ideal, but least bad.


I dunno. When he first appears, in that jumpsuit and 80's headband, my heart already sinks a little bit. I agree that he's about as good as we've had, but I sure wish we could find better.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Aksel probably knows this, but just to clarify further for other readers: The clip is from a ninety-minute documentary, _The Golden Ring_, which the BBC made during the taping of _Gotterdammerung_. There are several musical excerpts, as well as insights into the laborious process of making the first complete Ring recording. If you're already a fan of the Solti Ring, you may want to get this as well, since it's the only real visual testament of that project available.


I didn't actually know that, but I figured the Birgit Nilsson clip had to come from somewhere. I think I'll have to get a hold of that one.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Aksel probably knows this, but just to clarify further for other readers: The clip is from a ninety-minute documentary, _The Golden Ring_, which the BBC made during the taping of _Gotterdammerung_. There are several musical excerpts, as well as insights into the laborious process of making the first complete Ring recording. If you're already a fan of the Solti Ring, you may want to get this as well, since it's the only real visual testament of that project available.


 There's also a book about it, which I own but I don't remember the exact title, I'm too lazy to go upstairs and look for it. His memoir also exists in book format.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> There's also a book about it, which I own but I don't remember the exact title, I'm too lazy to go upstairs and look for it. His memoirs also exist in book format.


You mean John Culshaw's _Ring Resounding_? Yeah, that's a fascinating account of the struggles to record the Ring cycle, from the producer's first-hand experience. I got the book many years ago as part of a bulky hardcover set, along with Robert Gutman's somewhat snarky biography _Richard Wagner: The Man, his Mind, and his Music_, and Geroge Bernard Shaw's classic (though heavily political) analysis, _The Perfect Wagnerite_.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I'd say that in visual media Siegfried Jerusalem is the least bad one, especially in the Barenboim version. Not ideal, but least bad.


That is why its best sometimes to listen to a recording and visualise Windgassen or Melchior doing it instead.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> You mean John Culshaw's _Ring Resounding_? Yeah, that's a fascinating account of the struggles to record the Ring cycle, from the producer's first-hand experience. I got the book many years ago as part of a bulky hardcover set, along with Robert Gutman's somewhat snarky biography _Richard Wagner: The Man, his Mind, and his Music_, and Geroge Bernard Shaw's classic (though heavily political) analysis, _The Perfect Wagnerite_.


 Yes, that's it, Ring Resounding.


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