# Minimalism and dull orchestral parts



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

On the Become Ocean thread the following was posted:



mbhaub said:


> ...It's still a dull work in my opinion - all effects and no action. Not a single tune - no surprise there. It's aural wallpaper really. *What non-musician listeners may not appreciate is how mind-numbingly dull music like this is to play*. So no, I don't love it. I can see it being a decent score for some sci-fi epic film though.


 NB: My emphasis.

I responded with:



janxharris said:


> I'm curious - why do you say that this work would be dull for a performer? Is it because of the minimal ie repetitive nature of their parts or because you suspect that most of them would share your low estimation of the work (ie aesthetically)? Surely, if a musician loves how the work sounds, then any reservations about how uninteresting their part is would be irrelevant?


Any thoughts on this?

Become Ocean by John Luther Adams on YouTube.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I can't listen to more than a just a couple of minutes to this kind of music, after that it starts to bore me/annoy me. It sounds like there are 5 minutes of actual musical content and ideas in that piece, but stretched to 50 minutes, so that it sounds very thin and diluted and not containing enough musical nutrients.


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

To me the piece is good, but 800% too spaghettified. Should be 5 minutes, and you've got yourself a nice overture.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Any musicians who have loved the work they performed - thus rendering any 'dullness' of their particular part irrelevant?


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I can't listen to more than a just a couple of minutes to this kind of music, after that it starts to bore me/annoy me. It sounds like there are 5 minutes of actual musical content and ideas in that piece, but stretched to 50 minutes, so that it sounds very thin and diluted and not containing enough musical nutrients.


Thus far I'm not a great fan either.

INSPIRED BY RECORDING OF BECOME OCEAN, TAYLOR SWIFT GIVES $50,000 TO SEATTLE SYMPHONY


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't listen to much orchestral music but I do listen to minimal music for small ensembles.

I find this very hard to explain, and I'm not sure it's right anyway, but it seems to me that the skills, the capacities, that I'm engaging when I listen to, for example Jurg Frey or Eliane Radigue, are not the same as those I engage when I listen to mainstream classical music, Mozart and Bach for example. (Sorry, that's a terrible sentence, but you know what I mean . . . )

But I can't say more than that, other than I enjoy minimal chamber music very much, maybe because it is so _still_.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

janxharris said:


> On the Become Ocean thread the following was posted:
> 
> NB: My emphasis.
> 
> ...


Presumably performers find it dull because it has no technical challenges. But there are interpretative challenges I guess. Like singing chant or playing a Mozart sonata on the piano (well, an easy Mozart sonata!)

With long form minimalist music you have the physical challenge of staying the course, for a four hour string quartet for example.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

janxharris said:


> Any musicians who have loved the work they performed - thus rendering any 'dullness' of their particular part irrelevant?


I don't think you'll find many to bite on this one. For most orchestral musicians I know, they love a piece only as much as they enjoy the part for their instrument, going so far as to judge a composer based on how well they write for their instrument. Take a bassoonist for example. If your symphony doesn't have a damn good bassoon part, then forget it. That player is not going to love your music.

Any musicians here care to prove me wrong? I think this is why, for the example that prompted this thread, many of the people who dislike Become Ocean are musicians.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm mindful of orchestras refusing to play Schubert's 9th ("The Great") in the work's early days because the string parts - which sound very repetitive and almost minimalist way to me (in a good and very innovative way) - because they were too difficult.


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> I don't think you'll find many to bite on this one. For most orchestral musicians I know, they love a piece only as much as they enjoy the part for their instrument, going so far as to judge a composer based on how well they write for their instrument. Take a bassoonist for example. If your symphony doesn't have a damn good bassoon part, then forget it. That player is not going to love your music.
> 
> Any musicians here care to prove me wrong? I think this is why, for the example that prompted this thread, many of the people who dislike Become Ocean are musicians.


I guess that rules out any piccolo player liking Malcolm Arnold's 9th Symphony flamencosketches. The picc. plays one note in the whole symphony....in the last chord of the last movement. Arnold, in his defence had lost the plot by then and wrote the work whilst institutionalised.
I tend to agree with your post btw.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> I guess that rules out any piccolo player liking Malcolm Arnold's 9th Symphony flamencosketches. The picc. plays one note in the whole symphony....in the last chord of the last movement. Arnold, in his defence had lost the plot by then and wrote the work whilst institutionalised.
> I tend to agree with your post btw.


A phenomenal symphony. I didn't know that about one piccolo note in the whole 50+ minute symphony, but that's hilarious :lol:

I imagine the piccolo is simply one of the flutists doubling? It would be ridiculous to pay another musician just for that one note.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I believe Beethoven in his fifth symphony only brings out the trombones for the last movement; they might grumble.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> A phenomenal symphony. I didn't know that about one piccolo note in the whole 50+ minute symphony, but that's hilarious :lol:
> 
> I imagine the piccolo is simply one of the flutists doubling? It would be ridiculous to pay another musician just for that one note.


I, too, thought the flautist would be doubling the piccolo but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Arnold) has 2 flutes, piccolo (rather than doubling).


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

There's an old expression among choral performers about having an "alto part." In most strophes the alto part doesn't vary much. It is to a rock band the role a rhythm guitar provides. Sometimes they sing the same note over and over again, sometimes varying only every other note or so.

When I am confronted by this kind of music I find myself drifting, turned off, and exit. To me this is most minimalism. Even if it is interesting at the beginning it soon wears out its welcome.

It doesn't just happen in minimalism. I know a cellist who says she is bored to death playing the Schubert "Great" C major symphony for the same reason -- playing the same few notes over and over again.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Since a quote of mine started this, I'll add. It doesn't matter whether you're a rank amateur or a polished professional; it doesn't matter if you're playing violin, bassoon, trumpet or bass drum -- you want to play a part that is gratifying. It offers technical as well as musical challenges and you feel like you contribute in some way. There's something about the way the great composers of the past wrote music so that everyone is involved. I never tire of playing Beethoven, Berlioz, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Brahms for example. Either bassoon 1 or 2 - it's great part writing. Your mind is occupied and it's gratifying music to play. Then there are some deadlier composers: Bruckner for example. May sound great to an audience, but his part writing is very dull for the woodwinds. The Franck d minor symphony is another total bore to play. In so much contemporary music it's the same story - boring, repetitive, uninteresting part writing. That stupid John Adams Short Ride in a Fast Machine is god-awful boring to play. I've played some Theofanidis. Awful. They both should read through a symphony by Dvorak to learn how to write interesting parts. There are some "modern" composers who wrote well: Copland, Bernstein, Hanson and Rouse come to mind. But even they struggle to write those beautiful cantabile parts that the old masters could. The same problem is around for pops concerts: audiences love it, but the writing is so boring for the players. I recently played Video Games Live. Very poorly written; dull beyond description for the players. Of course the musically deficient young crowd thought it was a masterpiece. But it was just as bad as any Adams or Glass could ever be - how many bars do you play F over and over until you want to die?


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Since a quote of mine started this, I'll add. It doesn't matter whether you're a rank amateur or a polished professional; it doesn't matter if you're playing violin, bassoon, trumpet or bass drum -- you want to play a part that is gratifying. It offers technical as well as musical challenges and you feel like you contribute in some way. There's something about the way the great composers of the past wrote music so that everyone is involved. I never tire of playing Beethoven, Berlioz, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Brahms for example. Either bassoon 1 or 2 - it's great part writing. Your mind is occupied and it's gratifying music to play. Then there are some deadlier composers: Bruckner for example. May sound great to an audience, but his part writing is very dull for the woodwinds. The Franck d minor symphony is another total bore to play. In so much contemporary music it's the same story - boring, repetitive, uninteresting part writing. That stupid John Adams Short Ride in a Fast Machine is god-awful boring to play. I've played some Theofanidis. Awful. They both should read through a symphony by Dvorak to learn how to write interesting parts. There are some "modern" composers who wrote well: Copland, Bernstein, Hanson and Rouse come to mind. But even they struggle to write those beautiful cantabile parts that the old masters could. The same problem is around for pops concerts: audiences love it, but the writing is so boring for the players. I recently played Video Games Live. Very poorly written; dull beyond description for the players. Of course the musically deficient young crowd thought it was a masterpiece. But it was just as bad as any Adams or Glass could ever be - how many bars do you play F over and over until you want to die?


What is 'Video Games'?


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> I don't think you'll find many to bite on this one. For most orchestral musicians I know, they love a piece only as much as they enjoy the part for their instrument, going so far as to judge a composer based on how well they write for their instrument. Take a bassoonist for example. If your symphony doesn't have a damn good bassoon part, then forget it. That player is not going to love your music.
> 
> Any musicians here care to prove me wrong?


This is not true....I think most musicians look beyond their own individual part. And judge based on the entire work...
I love Bruckner, but his bassoon parts are pretty uninteresting. Great brass parts. And upper woodwinds have lots of solos...it's the overall impact that determines my evaluation.
OTOH - Tchaikovsky syms 4and 5 have prominent bassoon parts, but I don't esp like these works. I rarely, if ever, listen to these...tho, I'll admit, over-exposure may be the cause.


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Since a quote of mine started this, I'll add. It doesn't matter whether you're a rank amateur or a polished professional; it doesn't matter if you're playing violin, bassoon, trumpet or bass drum -- you want to play a part that is gratifying. It offers technical as well as musical challenges and you feel like you contribute in some way. There's something about the way the great composers of the past wrote music so that everyone is involved. I never tire of playing Beethoven, Berlioz, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Brahms for example. Either bassoon 1 or 2 - it's great part writing. Your mind is occupied and it's gratifying music to play. Then there are some deadlier composers: Bruckner for example. May sound great to an audience, but his part writing is very dull for the woodwinds. The Franck d minor symphony is another total bore to play. In so much contemporary music it's the same story - boring, repetitive, uninteresting part writing. That stupid John Adams Short Ride in a Fast Machine is god-awful boring to play. I've played some Theofanidis. Awful. They both should read through a symphony by Dvorak to learn how to write interesting parts. There are some "modern" composers who wrote well: Copland, Bernstein, Hanson and Rouse come to mind. But even they struggle to write those beautiful cantabile parts that the old masters could. The same problem is around for pops concerts: audiences love it, but the writing is so boring for the players. I recently played Video Games Live. Very poorly written; dull beyond description for the players. Of course the musically deficient young crowd thought it was a masterpiece. But it was just as bad as any Adams or Glass could ever be - how many bars do you play F over and over until you want to die?


I can already feel the pain. Video game music, with very few exceptions, is rather dreadful.

Could you tell me some of your favourite classical/romantic pieces to play? I am really interested in taking a look at the bassoon parts written in them.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

larold said:


> It doesn't just happen in minimalism. I know a cellist who says she is bored to death playing the Schubert "Great" C major symphony for the same reason -- playing the same few notes over and over again.


So it is still happening! Probably you missed my post about early reactions from string players to the work. Did Schubert invent minimalism? If so he used repetition to great effect - an act of total genius - so he must be forgiven.


----------



## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm a musicologist but I play bassoon for various groups as needed. Performing minimalist music (which I did last week -- well, post-minimalist, anyway) is for me rarely as gratifying as playing something with a really interesting part in the traditional sense, but it does require a certain laser-like focus which is engaging in its own sort of way. It's much more bearable when the piece as a whole is interesting, even when the part is dull, as was the case with this David Lang piece.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> The same problem is around for pops concerts: audiences love it, but the writing is so boring for the players. I recently played Video Games Live. Very poorly written; dull beyond description for the players. Of course the musically deficient young crowd thought it was a masterpiece. But it was just as bad as any Adams or Glass could ever be - how many bars do you play F over and over until you want to die?


It's true - some of the "pops" arrangements are awful....really dull...esp the various "medleys" by various composers or songwriters, show tunes, etc...it's like musical pablum....easy to prepare, any orchestra, high school, community, university can play it with little problem...all bland, innocuous and thoroughly forgettable.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> Could you tell me some of your favourite classical/romantic pieces to play? I am really interested in taking a look at the bassoon parts written in them.


I started a thread on this subject not too long ago...

<<My favorite symphonies to perform - Beethoven and Mozart>>


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

larold said:


> It doesn't just happen in minimalism. I know a cellist who says she is bored to death playing the Schubert "Great" C major symphony for the same reason -- playing the same few notes over and over again.


Right, the string figures go on interminably in Schubert "Great" C Major....so do the melodies which are accompanied by these figures....it takes a great conductor to keep this piece from becoming a real bore....


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

MrMeatScience said:


> I'm a musicologist but I play bassoon for various groups as needed. Performing minimalist music (which I did last week -- well, post-minimalist, anyway) is for me rarely as gratifying as playing something with a really interesting part in the traditional sense, but it does require a certain laser-like focus which is engaging in its own sort of way. It's much more bearable when the piece as a whole is interesting, even when the part is dull, as was the case with this David Lang piece.


Yes, I saw Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg play a Reich work with the New Century Chamber Orchestra. The work was a bit less than 20 minutes. When they were done, she talked about how difficult it was counting throughout the work. I would guess that they were anything but bored. Of course, that doesn't mean the work was enjoyable to play.

My daughter has talked about how boring Pachelbel's Canon is for cello players. She still thinks it's a great work but just not fun to play.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mmsbls said:


> My daughter has talked about how boring Pachelbel's Canon is for cello players.


for sure...awful...deadly....dumb piece...


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> This is not true....I think most musicians look beyond their own individual part. And judge based on the entire work...
> I love Bruckner, but his bassoon parts are pretty uninteresting. Great brass parts. And upper woodwinds have lots of solos...it's the overall impact that determines my evaluation.
> OTOH - Tchaikovsky syms 4and 5 have prominent bassoon parts, but I don't esp like these works. I rarely, if ever, listen to these...tho, I'll admit, over-exposure may be the cause.


IMO, the bassoon is one of the unsung heroes of the orchestra. I don't think a lot of concert goers know them when they hear them whereas they can likely pick out the flute, clarinet and oboe. Brahms seemed to particularly like the bassoon since it is prominent in his concertos. The 2nd movement of the Brahms Piano Concerto #1 wouldn't be the same without the bassoons!


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

janxharris said:


> What is 'Video Games'?


A traveling show called Video Games Live where you sit there with headphones on, listening to a clicktrack. Images from popular games are displayed and you play along providing a live soundtrack. The music is dumb, dull, repetitive, and insipid. Can't say enough bad things about it. Yet there are some people who think it's the greatest music ever composed.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> I can already feel the pain. Video game music, with very few exceptions, is rather dreadful.
> 
> Could you tell me some of your favourite classical/romantic pieces to play? I am really interested in taking a look at the bassoon parts written in them.


So many cool bassoon parts. Some of the ones I enjoy the most:

Beethoven symphonies 5, 7, 8. Violin concerto.
Brahms all of the symphonies
Dvorak at least symphonies 7, 8, 9.
Prokofiev Classical symphony, 7th symphony
Tchaikovsky Nutcracker, symphonies 2, 4, 5, 6.
Grieg Piano concerto
Bizet Carmen suites 
Stravinsky Firebird suite (1919)
Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade, Russian easter overture
Amy Beach Gaelic symphony
Mendelssohn symphonies 3, 4
...and many more

Things I loathe playing:
Most all Wagner (very dull parts for bassoon for the most part)
Bruckner wrote boring bassoon parts
Verdi dull parts
Beethoven symphony 4 (nightmares)
Ravel - piano concerto
Tchaikovsky 1812 overture, Swan Lake
Mahler 1st symphony (the last page is a killer)


----------



## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> I recently played Video Games Live. Very poorly written; dull beyond description for the players. Of course the musically deficient young crowd thought it was a masterpiece. But it was just as bad as any Adams or Glass could ever be - how many bars do you play F over and over until you want to die?


I've heard some decent melodies come out of the video game world, but usually the good stuff is short enough to prevent boredom. Which "pieces" did you play that you found excruciating?


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> I imagine the piccolo is simply one of the flutists doubling? It would be ridiculous to pay another musician just for that one note.


Especially if the player fell asleep and missed their cue!


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

starthrower said:


> Especially if the player fell asleep and missed their cue!


Dvorak Sym #8 - English horn plays 3 notes..
Bartok- Concerto/Orchestra - iirc, contrabassoon has 1 note....there is, however, a substantial bassoon III part.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

AeolianStrains said:


> Which "pieces" did you play that you found excruciating?


All of it. These weren't simple song arrangements. These are long, complicated medleys that go on and on. Kingdom Hearts, Halo, Civilization, World of Warcraft, Mario Bros....not exactly immortal.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Dvorak Sym #8 - English horn plays 3 notes..
> Bartok- Concerto/Orchestra - iirc, contrabassoon has 1 note....there is, however, a substantial bassoon III part.


 Dvorak 8 - the EH has a short phrase, more than 3 notes AND it's actually in the 2nd oboe part so a third player doesn't need to sit there.

But boy, are there some tough things for percussionists. Like playing only the triangle in one movement of the Brahms 4th, the Beach Gaelic. I've often pitied the cymbal player who has to sit through the l - o - n - g Bruckner 8th only to play ONE note. Or the tuba player who plays only 14 or so notes in Dvorak 9th.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

This from Reddit - What is the Most Boring Piece of music that you've played?



> I like listening to Bolero. I HATE PLAYING BOLERO. (I play viola.) Some Vivaldi viola parts, like the violin concertos, are quite painful. It's usually just playing the same note repeatedly for a few measures, change pitch for a few measures... It's all great music, but it can be monotonous. Also, after playing the Nutcracker every winter for 20 years, sometimes multiple times, I started playing some parts entirely with one finger. Which finger depends on your level of boredom and skill. Fourth finger is not to be taken lightly.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> So many cool bassoon parts.
> Things I loathe playing:
> 
> Beethoven symphony 4 (nightmares)
> Ravel - piano concerto


These are tough pieces, probably among the "nerviest" of all - Stravinsky - Pulcinella is definitely another one...Sheherazade can be tough, you don't want to get tangled up in the cadenzas...Francaix "Serenade" is in a class by itself, so is Bernstein "West Side Story Dances" - with the ultra-screech lick in the Prologue - fast, very high....difficult lick.

I've played Beethoven, Bernstein, Rimsky-K and Ravel several times, once for Francaix, only twice for Pulcinella - it is really tough - all the way thru - The Toccata is difficult, and Variation 2 of the Gavotte is a real bugger....fast, big skips, alternate fingerings, all around high F# G # etc....tough part...I've played it twice, both times went well - reeds cooperating, "musical gods" smiling on me those days . I've heard this part missed in live performance, and even on recordings....David McGill gets it out well on his CSO recording with Boulez...Heard BSO play it live a few years back, R. Swoboda did ok, cracked a couple in the Variation,but overall did OK.... 
I think Shostakovich Sym #8 would be a really tough one, also - big solos, esp the finale recap, where Bassoon I rests forever, then comes in on a high Eb....

RE Beethoven #4 - I once played for a conductor who wanted to go at 160/minute+. that was a nightmare...he kept rushing, the orchestra really couldn't keep it together, it would slow down, so he'd rush like h*ll during the repeated half notes.....time for the bassoon entrance, the orchestra was strewn all over the page - I just dove in, full blast and made it... really insane tempo, I thought I screwed it up completely.....on the concert tape, it's a big mess until the bassoon entrance, which actually stabilized it and pulled things together....it came out ok....really crazy, tho....

with Ravel - One conductor kept going over the middle section of mvt I - I don't know if he was trying to bust my chops with the high "E" passage - but repeat, over and over...must have been 8 or 9 times...I made it every time, and aced it both performances....I never knew what that was all about.....


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

That Bernstein Symphonic Dances has a tough part, and my bassoon won't do the high F and I'm not about to drill a hole in a perfectly good bocal to do it. And that piece won't come up too much more and besides - no one can hear it anyway!

In Beethoven 4 slur-two tongue-two and most conductors can't even hear the difference. I hate that part.

I've never had the pleasure or fear of playing the first part on Bolero - I always wind up on a truly mind numbing part - the contrabassoon - three notes over and over.

Have you had the pleasure though of the Shostakovich 9th - that 4th movement is all solo bassoon and such a powerful, emotional statement. Hope that comes around again soon.


----------



## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

How about Beethoven's "Concretion of the House". Great bassoon obbligato under the trumpet fanfare. In most recordings the trumpets and orchestra are so loud the bassoon is buried under the noise.


----------



## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

After beats in the horn parts of long marches have a minimalist feel...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

BobBrines said:


> How about Beethoven's "Concretion of the House". Great bassoon obbligato under the trumpet fanfare. In most recordings the trumpets and orchestra are so loud the bassoon is buried under the noise.


Try Toscanini's NBC recording...monster bassoon section.


----------



## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> I don't think you'll find many to bite on this one. For most orchestral musicians I know, they love a piece only as much as they enjoy the part for their instrument, going so far as to judge a composer based on how well they write for their instrument. Take a bassoonist for example. *If your symphony doesn't have a damn good bassoon part, then forget it. That player is not going to love your music. *
> 
> Any musicians here care to prove me wrong? I think this is why, for the example that prompted this thread, many of the people who dislike Become Ocean are musicians.


I would say this is definitely not the case for even most musicians, past maybe younger student age. I think the association is more that if the piece does have a good part for your instrument, there's a really chance good you will like it out of the positive associations, but that doesn't mean that if it doesn't, you won't like it. That of course means that you have to be exposing yourself to music outside just what you play in order to enjoy things that don't have good parts, but I think most mature musicians do that.


----------



## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Since a quote of mine started this, I'll add. It doesn't matter whether you're a rank amateur or a polished professional; it doesn't matter if you're playing violin, bassoon, trumpet or bass drum -- you want to play a part that is gratifying. It offers technical as well as musical challenges and you feel like you contribute in some way. There's something about the way the great composers of the past wrote music so that everyone is involved. I never tire of playing Beethoven, Berlioz, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Brahms for example. Either bassoon 1 or 2 - it's great part writing. Your mind is occupied and it's gratifying music to play. Then there are some deadlier composers: Bruckner for example. May sound great to an audience, but his part writing is very dull for the woodwinds. The Franck d minor symphony is another total bore to play. In so much contemporary music it's the same story - boring, repetitive, uninteresting part writing. That stupid John Adams Short Ride in a Fast Machine is god-awful boring to play. I've played some Theofanidis. Awful. They both should read through a symphony by Dvorak to learn how to write interesting parts. There are some "modern" composers who wrote well: Copland, Bernstein, Hanson and Rouse come to mind. But even they struggle to write those beautiful cantabile parts that the old masters could. The same problem is around for pops concerts: audiences love it, but the writing is so boring for the players. I recently played Video Games Live. Very poorly written; dull beyond description for the players. Of course the musically deficient young crowd thought it was a masterpiece. But it was just as bad as any Adams or Glass could ever be - how many bars do you play F over and over until you want to die?


This is a sentiment I've definitely come across whenever I talk to my orchestral colleagues.

Adorno and Horkheimer have written much more eloquently than I could ever write on our relation with and appreciation art and entertainment relative to our lives being defined by the work we are made to do so that we may afford to engage in culture in this way.

Orchestral musicians are workers and sure as heck they don't want to be doing unfulfilling work. The audience who comes to see a pops concert has just spent the last week doing work which has likely been repetitive, uncreative, unstimulating and has led to a kind of exhaustion where the familiar, unchallenging sounds of video game music are easier to consume than an evening of emotionally charged Mahler or Berg.

But these pops concerts are largely unfulfilling for orchestral musicians, despite making more money for the orchestra overall. Greater prominence of them will reinforce ungratifying work. When a profit motive dictates the production of culture, culture will become increasingly standardised and the work put in to create it will steadily become less creative, more ungratifying, and, in the end, less _human._ When this applies across all forms of entertainment, it creates an audience that you describe as 'musically deficient' for no fault of their own.


----------

