# Is there any Hope for me?



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

No, this isn't one of those existential threads that have popped up in the community forum over the past few weeks. 

I'm talking about Beethoven.

Over the last few years, I'm getting an increasing anxiety over why I don't like him. I have found a strong enough argument enough to explain to everyone why I don't like him, and I haven't found a strong enough argument from anyone else why I should like him, but that's the point. Sure, you may have grown up hearing him a lot and thus you like him, but so did I on the radio only I didn't get the same impressions. Why have I not heard (as in, read someone's opinion of him, as well as listening to his music)a persuasive enough argument to like him, not even from his own music?

For all of Beethoven's fame, he continues not to impress me. I've heard symphonies in live performance (will actually be _in_ a performance of his 3rd), numerous piano sonatas, orchestral overtures, concertos, etc. I've learned how to play Fur Elise! And yet all I've come to pull out of his oeuvre that I could say I more than just "appreciate" are barely a handful. Learning stuff by him for flute is one thing, but that's in general a weak pull for me towards a composer, just because I like their flute solos.

It's never fame or crowds of fans that ever had me come to like a composer, it was _unique experience_ that had me fall in love with new composers. I'm also not convinced by people who say he's above criticism, because he isn't. I've always had a heart for lesser known composers, so thus Beethoven can't qualify on _that _term. If anything, I admire Beethoven for his humility in admitting his own music didn't come from him, but that God "planted" it in him, in his own words. And yet, I'm still not drawn to the actual music. 

So what I'm asking for this thread is not a bunch of raves about Beethoven to get me to like him. But I'm asking for a well thought out logical argument why he's not just _great_, but a composer who could touch me on a personal basis. Is there any hope for me to, as Stravinsky so _aptly _put it, "love" Beethoven instead?


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

I think the answer is:

You don't like Beethoven. 

Some of us love him, some of us don't. 

Stick to Glazunov is my advice.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

You are not allone!!!! I have tried to explain this for myself too. I new you ment Beethoven after reading a few lines. 
I think I will get into him some day. And the world is not black and whit.... I struggle to like most of his symphonies, but in good mood, I can really enjoy no 3 and 6. The others must be eksplored also, but I find myself pushing it towards future. 
The piano concerts is different. I really like them.
But the big icon, symphony no 9....The first movement is utterly boring, in my oppinion so far..The rest is bether, and I can see the greatness, but I dont like it now.
The piano sonatas is nice, but I am very often not in the mood to listen to solo piano. Cant blame Beethoven for that..

But things may change.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I think he's the greatest, but there's no reason why you should. Get rid of the angst and enjoy what you like---take it easy.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't think I'd be the best person to sell you on Beethoven, as I have my own issues with his music, and I've figured out what it is - his orchestration. I am not crazy about Beethoven's orchestration, it doesn't feel 'tight' to me like other great orchestrators ie - Mozart and Ravel. Beethoven's orchestration comes off as sounding 'cold' to me. The only orchestrated pieces by Beethoven I love are his piano concertos though I think this is despite the orchestration - his symphonies have moments that I think are incredible, but as of yet I can't quite fully overcome the problems I perceive in them. I will say I very much enjoy most of his works for smaller ensembles and solo instruments. I consider his music for solo piano to be sublime and some of the best in the repertoire. But I very much understand why some might struggle with some of his music because I do too!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm willing to bet there is hope. 

Are you sure there isn't an aspect of Beethoven being too famous and highly touted for what it seems to be worth, and thus that's why you can't get personal with it? This isn't a bad thing other than it keeping a composer closed off to you. I have the same problem with Chopin, it didn't connect with me at first like it did with some people, and I almost unconsciously don't want to see him succeed in moving me. 

I think I can understand where you are coming from, but I'm not good at getting out complicated points like this. It'll inevitably be way to convoluted, Lukecash would not approve .


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I think the problem here may well be that, as with so many other composers, Beethoven's pre-eminence owes a large amount to what he did _with_ music and how he affected music _history_, but that doesn't mean that there are significant reasons why you should fall in love the with the _music itself_.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

tdc said:


> I don't think I'd be the best person to sell you on Beethoven, as I have my own issues with his music, and I've figured out what it is - his orchestration. I am not crazy about Beethoven's orchestration, it doesn't feel 'tight' to me like other great orchestrators ie - Mozart and Ravel.


You are very right! This is what first deterred me from Beethoven's music actually. I thought it wasn't "tight". And the piano music seemed un-melodic and therefore meandering. But now I appreciate Medtner, so Beethoven is a piece of cake. Not the first time I've been impressed with your perceptiveness, tdc.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Yeah, there's really no need to like what you clearly do not like. I am, however, very curious as to what you have been exposed to orchestra and piano-wise...I know for certain of at least a couple dozen pieces that if interpreted correctly the listener would have to be a **** to not like them.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I was not into his music at first. I only liked his 6th symphony first movement, his Egmont Overture, and his Emporer Concerto Finale, and a few others. The 7th symphony seemed like a mess to me. The Appasionata's theme seemed to consist of arpegios that pretended to be profound and almost affected me, but didn't quite make it. Some how something changed. That's why I say there is hope, Huilu.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

What composers do you like, Huilunsoittaja?

I find myself asking this whenever anybody makes a thread along these lines.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Personally, I don't know you well enough to know why or if he is "a composer who could touch me on a personal basis".

1st tack:

With a day for 'cooking' in between sets, listen to Haydn's Op. 76, then to Mozart's Kv 428 and Kv 458. Finally listen to LvB's Op. 18. Perhaps you will hear his 'voice'.

2nd tack:

Starting around Opus 90, much of his solo/chamber music has an inward focus; he is examining his house, maybe looking for evidence that God has been there, and whether He left pathway markers for Ludwig to follow. By the time he gets to Op. 111 it sounds like he found them. The late string quartets have as a primary objective the illumination of a new path for music, but in Op. 130/133 he lays out a path of pleasant, entertaining music, and then melds it into an amazing outburst of passion. In Op. 132 there is a celebration of God's grace that's about as powerful as anything I've heard.

If you live out your life without Beethoven's music in it, it's no big deal; billions of people have managed it.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

tdc said:


> I don't think I'd be the best person to sell you on Beethoven, as I have my own issues with his music, and I've figured out what it is - his orchestration. I am not crazy about Beethoven's orchestration, it doesn't feel 'tight' to me like other great orchestrators ie - Mozart and Ravel. Beethoven's orchestration comes off as sounding 'cold' to me. The only orchestrated pieces by Beethoven I love are his piano concertos though I think this is despite the orchestration - his symphonies have moments that I think are incredible, but as of yet I can't quite fully overcome the problems I perceive in them.


Can you be more specific? I've always thought Beethoven's orchestration largely to be in the 'functional - good' category, with fairly frequent moments of genuine inspiration and comparatively rare examples of poor/careless orchestration. In this page of excerpts from his _Treatise on Orchestration_, Berlioz cites Beethoven's works about fifteen times (more than any other composer) and even Berlioz's detractors will admit he was no slouch in the orchestration department: http://www.hberlioz.com/Scores/BerliozTreatise.html.

Some examples I would share from that page and my own listening to attest to B's orchestration skills are:

- *effective blending of instrumental sounds* in Symphony no. 5, second movement, bars 1-11 (cellos and violas); 5th piano concerto, 2nd movement, bars 64-82 (piano and orchestra); 8th Symphony 3rd movement Trio (clarinet and horns); 7th symphony 2nd movement beginning of major key section after funeral march (woodwind and strings); Turkish section of 9th symphony 4th movement (wind and percussion).

- *effective matching of melody/thematic material with instrument*: oboe in Pastoral symphony 3rd movement bars 88-123, Symphony #7 1st movement bars 300-310 and 3rd symphony 3rd movement scherzo theme; flute solo in 7th symphony, beginning of 1st movement Allegro and 4th movement bars 80-94; horns in 6th symphony 5th movement opening theme.

- *general instrumental use/effects*: use of piccolo in Pastoral Symphony bars 93-108; use of bassoon in 5th Symphony, 3rd movement, bars 281-302; use of trumpet _piano_ in 7th Symphony, 2nd movement, bars 174-183; use of timpani _piano_ in 4th Symphony, 2nd movement, bars 96-104; 5th Symphony, 3rd movement, bars 313-373, and _forte_ in 9th symphony 2nd movement opening; rapid juxtaposition of instrumental lines in 4th symphony 3rd movement; disguised solo oboe entry in opening of 7th symphony first movement and recapitulation of 5th symphony 1st movement; effective use of pizzicato in 4th symphony, 2nd movement, bars 26-34; 5th Symphony, 3rd movement, bars 302-316.

There is also his introduction of trombones and piccolos into the standard orchestra.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> I'm willing to bet there is hope.
> 
> Are you sure there isn't an aspect of Beethoven being too famous and highly touted for what it seems to be worth, and thus that's why you can't get personal with it? This isn't a bad thing other than it keeping a composer closed off to you. I have the same problem with Chopin, it didn't connect with me at first like it did with some people, and I almost unconsciously don't want to see him succeed in moving me.
> 
> I think I can understand where you are coming from, but I'm not good at getting out complicated points like this. It'll inevitably be way to convoluted, Lukecash would not approve .


I was thinking of asking people here some really obscure works by Beethoven that I haven't hardened myself against.
Actually, could anyone? 

Interesting case with Chopin, it may be a little of that too with Beethoven for me. I do like Chopin, but even with him I like to hear lesser known works. My prejudice with Beethoven _is_ that I've heard his works 10 times over, and it didn't matter.

Thanks anyways everyone, I like that I'm not being pushed about for this, because I have in other places.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe piano concerto no 4? I dont know if you have hardned against that one. I find it superb.
Best performance I have found so far may not be very conventional: 
Olli Mustonen (Conductor, Performer), Tapiola Sinfonietta


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Webernite said:


> What composers do you like, Huilunsoittaja?
> 
> I find myself asking this whenever anybody makes a thread along these lines.


Well if I must, I will relate to composers I like only of Beethoven's Early Romantic era.

I love von Weber and *Schubert* from Beethoven's era. They are some of the oldest composers I love "for them," not because of a bias for flute repertoire, and I was quite surprised to hear non-flutists talk about how great Schubert's flute parts were (after further investigation I concurred ). I love Schubert and von Weber for their _melodies _first and foremost, as opposed to tone color and all that stuff that I say I also like Russian and French romantic/20th cent. composers for. That's what bugs me: why do I like Schubert's melodies more than Beethoven's? Is there really _that _much of a difference? Not to my ear anyway, except one I like, the other I don't. It could be that Schubert took more influence from Mozart, another composer I also have trouble liking but not nearly as much as Beethoven. It could also be Schubert simply used _more _melody whereas Beethoven uses chord progressions for the basis of musical thought.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I was thinking of asking people here some really obscure works by Beethoven that I haven't hardened myself against.
> Actually, could anyone?
> 
> Interesting case with Chopin, it may be a little of that too with Beethoven for me. I do like Chopin, but even with him I like to hear lesser known works. My prejudice with Beethoven _is_ that I've heard his works 10 times over, and it didn't matter.
> ...


Try his works for mandoline and cembalo, you'll think you are dancing with Zorba the Greek, I'll bet you'll love 'em !


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

I wouldn't say you have a really strong argument. You didn't mention any of his faults or anything negative about him. 

Fur Elise, one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written, is hardly a put down.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

One thing that always pleases me about Beethoven is to, while I'm listening to his 1st symphony in particular, imagine what Mozart and Haydn would have thought of such a blatant and monstrous parody of their music, almost like a slap in their face(they might have enjoyed it, haha). I imagine having an audience of Haydn and Mozart studying the score of this work they might never have gotten to hear(Haydn might have heard it actually), and listening to how crazy it sounds. I get a little of this feeling from the 4th symphony and 2nd symphony as well, the feeling of stretched and abused classicism. Same with his 3rd Piano Sonata. Mozart and Haydn might have dropped their jaws and thought, "is this guy nuts?". 

And there are three piano sonatas not as well known that I'm particularly fond of, aside from my amusement at my imaginative scenario of classical era composers confronted with a slap in their face, I know them by their numbers: Number 7(before the Pathetique), Number 13(sonata fantasia), and Number 24(F sharp major, Beethoven's personal favorite).


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I love Beethoven, but I don't like everything he's done, and it took a lot of time for some of his works to warm up to me. I'm still trying to get to terms with some of his symphonies, and only recently am I starting to appreciate (still an ongoing process) his string quartets and piano sonatas.

What instantly captivated me, however, was his violin concerto. Have you ever listened to it? I find it a colossal work, which I find completely unique in the VC repertoire, and a great shame he wrote only one  . It speaks to me in such an immense way (which I can't really describe). For example, the way the solo violin sings almost non-stop in this interpretation from around 5:45 to about 8:50 just leaves me breathless. It feels like such a grandscale work.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

And if you want to try something pretty out of the ordinary try his piano version of his violin concerto--I wouldn't think that you would know it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Llyranor said:


> I love Beethoven, but I don't like everything he's done, and it took a lot of time for some of his works to warm up to me. I'm still trying to get to terms with some of his symphonies, and only recently am I starting to appreciate (still an ongoing process) his string quartets and piano sonatas.
> 
> What instantly captivated me, however, was his violin concerto. Have you ever listened to it? I find it a colossal work, which I find completely unique in the VC repertoire, and a great shame he wrote only one  . It speaks to me in such an immense way (which I can't really describe). For example, the way the solo violin sings almost non-stop in this interpretation from around 5:45 to about 8:50 just leaves me breathless. It feels like such a grandscale work.


It's my favorite violin concerto; affecting at a higher level than those by Mendelssohn and Bruch, far superior to Brahms', even more attractive than Tchaikovsky's.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Re hope for LvB, maybe slowly exploring his works chronologically will instill new interest. Op. 2, Op. 18.... Stopping anywhere along the way, to reflect or to forget...then picking it up, if or when you feel like it. Feeling you're on a specific course that requires completion would be non-productive. Good luck, with whatever you decide.


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Don't waste your time trying to appreciate Beethoven. Personal taste is nothing to be ashamed of.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Last five quartets. 
Last 5 sonatas. 
Take it or leave it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Beethoven is ok I suppose. But Ligeti, Nyman, C. Schumann and Farrenc are *much* better.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

I like LvB because to me his music has a kind of fractal quality - he has his big broad strokes (i.e. power chords) and he has his intricate detail. And he seems to move the focus back and forth between the big and the small. Plenty of composers do intricate work or big sweeping gestures - but no one seems to mix it up quite like LvB (IMHO FWIW).

I also like LvB because he often seems to like teasing the listener - getting you to expect one thing and then delivering something different. As is for him a perpetually funny joke is catching you off guard. Of course it's not that funny - but it's kinda cute that he tries so frequently for the same effect.

No doubt there's much more to LvB than these two points - but that is what has struck me so far.

In any case, everyone should form their own opinions and be proud of their idiosyncrasies. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

LordBlackudder said:


> I wouldn't say you have a really strong argument. You didn't mention any of his faults or anything negative about him.
> 
> Fur Elise, one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written, is hardly a put down.


I purposefully didn't say anything of what my argument is against Beethoven here because I didn't intend this to be a thread about why I don't like Beethoven. I've stated my opinion about him elsewhere on this forum.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Beethoven is ok I suppose. But Ligeti, Nyman, C. Schumann and Farrenc are *much* better.


:lol:

5char


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I am personally not incredibly fond of his symphonies either. I love his piano sonatas and string quartets though. Try sticking with those.

Also, you've mentioned your interest in great melodies. How interested are you in theme development? That is a large part of appreciating Beethoven.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Beethoven is ok I suppose. But Ligeti, Nyman, C. Schumann and Farrenc are *much* better.


Oh, get on with you!


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> But I'm asking for a well thought out logical argument why he's not just _great_, but a composer who could touch me on a personal basis.


Pretty sure no argument will get you to love Beethoven; you say yourself that


Huilunsoittaja said:


> it was _unique experience_ that had me fall in love with new composers.


The unique experience that made me personally connect with Beethoven (despite his preeminence) and feel like his music was _part of me_ was not listening to, but playing his piano sonatas. I've got no logical arguments for why you should love Beethoven as love isn't really a logical thing, but I can tell you that the piece taking my breath away at the moment is the second movement of his Op. 2 No. 3 piano sonata. Maybe you want to listen to it.


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

I think that Beethoven is not really about melodies (they are sometimes). Please do try listening to different period, genre, performers as others already suggested. I think performers especially can make a huge difference. It took me a long time to appreciate Beethoven the way I do now..

Just keep your ears open. It will come when it comes if it comes.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Beethoven is ok I suppose. But Ligeti, Nyman, C. Schumann and Farrenc are *much* better.


Hey, you like Farrenc too! Farrenc is awesome! (Though I'll ignore the part about "better" )


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> Hey, you like Farrenc too! Farrenc is awesome! (Though I'll ignore the part about "better" )


Farrenc's symphonies are definitely better than Beethoven's.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Farrenc's symphonies are definitely better than Beethoven's.


Ohh, I shan't engage with you on this one. I love Farrenc and I love Beethoven. I love Beethoven more than Farrenc (or anybody else) because of his piano sonatas.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> Ohh, I shan't engage with you on this one. I love Farrenc and I love Beethoven. I love Beethoven more than Farrenc (or anybody else) because of his piano sonatas.


I really like his sonatas too. But my favourite of his stuff are his late string quartets, including the Grosse Fuge.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Well if I must, I will relate to composers I like only of Beethoven's Early Romantic era.
> 
> I love von Weber and *Schubert* from Beethoven's era. They are some of the oldest composers I love "for them," not because of a bias for flute repertoire, and I was quite surprised to hear non-flutists talk about how great Schubert's flute parts were (after further investigation I concurred ). I love Schubert and von Weber for their _melodies _first and foremost, as opposed to tone color and all that stuff that I say I also like Russian and French romantic/20th cent. composers for. That's what bugs me: why do I like Schubert's melodies more than Beethoven's? Is there really _that _much of a difference? Not to my ear anyway, except one I like, the other I don't. It could be that Schubert took more influence from Mozart, another composer I also have trouble liking but not nearly as much as Beethoven. It could also be Schubert simply used _more _melody whereas Beethoven uses chord progressions for the basis of musical thought.


Well you kind of hit the nail on the head there.

Schubert was as you say, more into long flowing melodies. One of the best tunesmiths. Not degrading him with that, just that he thought in terms of tunes.

I've been listening to Weber's concertos and symphonies these days. Have always loved them. He basically throws away the rules of thematic development, etc. This music is like opera without the words. Again, those singing cantabile lines, flowing like a stream or something.

But Beethoven compared to both, he's more into the wigs. Adored Mozart, also one of his teachers, I think call Neefe or something, was a huge fan of J.S. Bach. As is known, Beethoven also loved Handel's stuff. So Beethoven was like neo-Baroque in some ways. Focussed on that aspect.

It could be that with your love of the Russians, many of them took on the Italian tradition, focussing on melody. Tchaikovsky I'd guess was interested in Mozart's vocal things the most. He adored Mozart as well, but probably not for the same reasons as Beethoven. I'm not hugely familiar with Glazunov, but I'd guess he's also more into melody and emotion. The works I know best,_ Saxophone Concerto _and _The SEasons,_ have these big surging melodies. The concerto more low key, he composed it in modern era, in Paris. But I think from this superficial assessment, they were more in line with Schubert and Weber. Eg. Weber threw out a lot of the rules to do his instrumental things, as did Tchaikovsky (some fools accuse him of bad thematic development, it's mainly not that, it's just that he did different thematic development).

But it's not set in concrete. Schubert admired Beethoven's music a lot, he said one of his late quartets, the Op. 131, was the pinnacle of music at the time. On the other hand, I think Weber was fine with Beethoven's music up to and including the middle period. But as for the late period, Weber was one of those who thought Beethoven had lost it, these were the scribblings of a madman. I think the thinking behind Weber's opinions was Beethoven's going "back to Bach" and the other wigs. Weber obviously didn't like counterpoint obscuring melody and the tunes. Too fragmented for him. So maybe, that's where your taste kind of lies, with Weber's?

I'm a big Beethoven fan, but I echo those above. You don't have to like him. Sounds like you appreciate him well (eg. able to play his music, studying music at uni, etc.). I mean we can't all like everything.

& these things take time. It took me 6 years to come around to Varese. Upon first listen, I thought it was too wierd for me, like jangled noise. 6 years after that first encounter, I went back to the shop to buy exactly the same cd of his music that I'd returned. & that time, I loved it upon first listen! (no listens in-between, 6 year gap!). The music didn't change, I did. A lot of change in my life between those years, it must be said.

Life experience is what helps me appreciate many composers or works I didn't care for before. It's not specific works necessarily, could be, but for me it's what goes on in my life that informs how I take in the music. What my needs are on a human level, etc. Hard to rationalise and label, put in words exactly, etc.

Other thing is we go through phases, I do. Sometimes I don't want anything much else but instrumental (as now). Last few years I had an on and off choral phase. I change like the wind, but lately I've bunkered down to instrumental of many kinds...


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I want to chime in..

When I was young and unexperienced, I adore all of Beethoven works I heard. I immersed myself with his music.. Now I'm having withdrawal problems.

I think it is Artemis who said that some of us ''graduated'' from Beethoven's music. I concur. I have now found *Schuber* a very much significant composer in my heart. With the exception of a very few works, I prefer Schubert's works than Beethoven.

I think this change happened when I tried myself to venture to other composers. When I was young, Beethoven was the beginning and the end. But over the years, when I found Schubert, I've found LvB's works as *cold, calculated and too intellectual.* Beethoven wrote nice melodies (Pathetique, Fur Elise) but Schubert's melodies are much better.

But that's not to say I appreciate him. Some of his works such as the Kreutzer sonata is a favorite. But overall, I prefer Schubert to him (chamber music, songs, symphonies and piano music).


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

Have you listened to Beethoven's last 3 piano sonatas? There's also the late string quartets, Grosse Fuge and the Diabelli Variations.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Life experience is what helps me appreciate many composers or works I didn't care for before. It's not specific works necessarily, could be, but for me it's what goes on in my life that informs how I take in the music.


I agree with Sid.

When I was your age, I hated Tchaikovsky, though I tried to like him. Then back in 1992, I heard a recording of his 6th symphony by Rozhdestvensky, and it finally made sense. Then Tchaikovsky opened up the Russians. So maybe it will come with time.

Have you read Sullivan's Beethoven, His Spiritual Development?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I don't have an intellectual argument here, but if you're in need of a revelation of sorts... have you tried _Missa Solemnis?_


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

@ Sid James, thank you for your words, that was well said.

I feel more hopeful now! I'll just wait for the revelation, and keep on listening. I feel my tastes will change over time, it's just a matter of when. As for me, since I want to be a professional, it doesn't matter whether or not I like Beethoven, but that I play in a way that makes my audience think I love him. I have that opportunity now when I'm going to play Beethoven's 3rd symphony, I feel I can do a lot with the 2nd flute part even though it's pitiful.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Bernstein is pretty persuasive in pointing out why Beethoven's music is great in the Omnibus TV show.

I think Sid James' point about melody is pretty much correct. Beethoven was more about structure and finding the perfect form than it was about melody. Not to say he couldn't write beautiful melodies too...


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## Aro (Sep 19, 2011)

In my humble opinion, for someone to really appreciate Beethoven to the Maximum, they should be a composer themselves. Only then can they realize the magnitude of Beethoven and why as you put it he is considered beyond criticism ( for he is above criticism to my point of view.)

Another factor is that no one can like every musical piece they listen to. Beethoven's music is full of fury and "malice" if the term be accepted, and thus a "calm" person could not be drawn to it.

The last ( but not least ) thing I feel the need to add, is that we should all at least appreciate Beethoven for what he gave to music ( if not for the music he wrote ) ; for he revolutionized in many musical forms and he contributed to a vast extend in the abridgment of the romantic era with the classical as far as music is concerned.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Aro said:


> In my humble opinion, for someone to really appreciate Beethoven to the Maximum, they should be a composer themselves. Only then can they realize the magnitude of Beethoven and why as you put it he is considered beyond criticism.


I agree with that. A musician or composer can have a unique insight into music that the average listener cannot. That's why I'm always drawn to the comments of people like Bernstein over the average armchair music critic.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

eorrific said:


> Have you listened to Beethoven's last 3 piano sonatas? There's also the late string quartets, Grosse Fuge and the Diabelli Variations.


 But isn't this a bit much for someone trying to get into Beethoven ?


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## wiganwarrior (Jan 6, 2012)

*It's the willpower!*

The Encyclopaedia Brittanica, not a particularly subjective tome, says of Beethoven - "and, in certain compositions is to be found the strongest assertion of the human will in all music, IF NOT IN ALL ART".
It is the sheer power of the human spirit, particularly its ability to overcome adversity (and what is worse for a composer than to lose his hearing) which I find sublime. This is what has helped me through many very difficult times. It imbues a power which I (& I believe many others worldwide over the last couple of hundred years) find overwhelming. This, to me, is the very essence of Beethoven - and when I saw the above comment after thirty years of listening it put into words what I had never been able to. This is why the 9th symphony and the indomitable chorus of "all men shall be brothers" is so relevant in our time. Even if we never achieve this state it is worthwhile striving with the ultimate willpower to try. Only one person's view - but passionately held! Be gentle with me.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Answer to the thread title without reading thread: NO


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## wiganwarrior (Jan 6, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> No, this isn't one of those existential threads that have popped up in the community forum over the past few weeks.
> 
> I'm talking about Beethoven.
> 
> ...


Sorry if my post appeared to be a "rave about Beethoven". It certainly wasn't meant to be. I did read the original thread and thought about it long & hard. I was trying to say how I think he might be able to "touch you on a personal basis". I hestated to put this in my first post, but several years ago I suffered from depression (which as all sufferers know tends to return at times). It was the willpower in Beethoven's music that spoke to me direct and helped me to get back up off the canvas time & time (and time) again. I'm obviously not saying you have to be a depressive for the music to touch you - but we all get knocked to the canvas a few time in our lives. All I am saying is that the next time you feel the struggle listen to Beethoven and it MAY be the gateway for you as well. If it's not, nothing is lost. All the best to you. Gary


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

You know, Huilun, that doesn't really surprise me, considering that Beethoven is one of the most masculine-sounding composers I've ever heard. It probably doesn't appeal to women nearly as much as men, like how wrestling or boxing doesn't appeal as much to women as it does to men. It's very serious, the orchestration is very grand with lots of brass, it follows a very definite order and logic, and it doesn't try to be especially "pretty."

Don't worry about it. You're not a bad person...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Ravellian said:


> You know, Huilun, that doesn't really surprise me, considering that Beethoven is one of the most masculine-sounding composers I've ever heard. It probably doesn't appeal to women nearly as much as men, like how wrestling or boxing doesn't appeal as much to women as it does to men. It's very serious, the orchestration is very grand with lots of brass, it follows a very definite order and logic, and it doesn't try to be especially "pretty."
> 
> Don't worry about it. You're not a bad person...


But Huilun likes Prokofiev and Shostakovich! While these are not necessarily masculine composers, full of angular ideas and so forth, they are Russians to the tenth degree. Perhaps they are angular in the femine sense, but they are a very blunt feminine. I think there may be some truth to this statement though. It may also be why she has not responded enthusiastically to Medtner, who is a Russian, or Taneyev, another Russian, two very masucline composers in the sense that they are highly analytical and more focuses on theme development using any blunt means they can. Bach is that way too.

Still this way of thinking doesn't totally work, Meaghan is another femaie here and she loves Beethoven and Mahler. Oh well, the overall point is that its up to taste. Maybe someday Beethoven will hit Huilun, maybe he won't. Also, I think Beethoven is perfectly capable of his femine moments. I would consider Brahms, Bruckner, Bach, and Medtner more exclusively masculine than Beethoven necessarily is.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

> No, this isn't one of those existential threads that have popped up in the community forum over the past few weeks.
> 
> I'm talking about Beethoven.


Sweet. I was beginning to be put off...


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