# Shuffling Classical Music



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

This morning before I went in to work, my sister texted me: Do you have any Beethoven, Brahms, and Wagner that you can give me to put on my iPod?

Why yes, I DO happen to have music I can give you.

So I converted to mp3 from FLAC complete cycles of Beethoven, Brahms, Schumann, and Mendelssohn for her, as well as some Mozart, Strauss, and Holst. I dropped by her office and we put them into her iTunes, synced to iPod, everything works fine and dandy.

As I'm leaving, she says "once you go I'll put the iPod on shuffle and listen to some music."

AAAAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

I almost wanted to take the music back to prevent this from happening. I did say that this should not be done and why. 

I just wanted to share this to see what reactions were. This is so anathema to me. But then, I never shuffle pop music, either. I have created playlists of classical stuff my kids enjoy, mostly overtures and divertimenti (never symphonic movements).


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I understand your dismay and I'm glad you explained why shuffling is not the ideal way to listen to most classical music. On the other hand, it is possible that your sister will be attracted to some fragments or individual movements and then come around to wanting to hear works as wholes and in the order in which they were composed. Patience and more discussion might help at some point?


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I just wanted to share this to see what reactions were. This is so anathema to me. But then, I never shuffle pop music, either. I have created playlists of classical stuff my kids enjoy, mostly overtures and divertimenti (never symphonic movements).


I brought chips to eat in a sold-out screening of _Tristan und Isolde._ I was ridiculous in my first experience and I understood nothing (I came without knowing the plot). It's very tough to shift from the usual way of listening to music than listening to classical. It was a bit easier for me because I already listened albums from start to finish, but Opera took more time.

I don't shuffle music either. I replay dozens of times if I like that track a lot. I wonder what kind of experience do people get from shuffling. I've only played albums in random track order (it shows me which ones are best edited), but doing so with artists I like has been much less rewarding so far.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

It is better your sister to shuffle and listen quality music, than not and listen what 98% of people worldwide are listening nowadays. I don't see a reason for dismay or rejection in your case, my friend.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I was making a playlist of CM music for a friend (not a listener of CM), and I selected individual movements from symphonies. For a newcomer who is used to listening to 5 minute songs, a 1 hour symphony is too long. I see no reason why not. Frankly, I find little connection between the individual movements of symphonies.


----------



## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

A number of years ago on another forum, I spearheaded the development of a long (750 tracks) playlist accessible on one of the streaming services and intended to introduce non-classical listeners to classical music. The music ranged from Hildegard of Bingen to Xenakis. There were many multi-movement works. I recommended that the newbies turn on shuffle, and feel free to skip tracks. But when they found something that caught their liking, they should listen to the entire piece.

As for me. I have some playlists I use as background music - classical, jazz and rock/pop. I always listen on shuffle. The classical pieces are short works. Most are single movement, and the ones that aren't were ripped as a single track. I have uploaded these to Google Music and play them using Google Homes.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Jacck said:


> Frankly, I find little connection between the individual movements of symphonies.


That can work quite better when the lengths of the complete sections don't last more than 8 minutes. Time is very important to take into account because some friends also thought that a five minute electronic track (with the common vocal and tonal structure) was too long. I was very disappointed once with a compilation album of ladies sing I don't know, blues or whatever. I was shocked with the under 3 minute length and didn't like the style. I gave it away.

I'm very keen on my Ambient and Bruckner/Mahler/Wagner diet!



Dimace said:


> It is better your sister to shuffle and listen quality music, than not and listen what 98% of people worldwide are listening nowadays. I don't see a reason for dismay or rejection in your case, my friend.


To be honest, I looked at the spectacular classical Spotify playlist (an official one) to find the Bruckner recordings used... and they were actually very good for what I knew.


----------



## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

Just use some program to group all the movements of a work into a single file.


----------



## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

I don't usually shuffle music, but I must admit that if sometimes I did it I discovered some pieces of music I'm reluctant to play in my Ipod. 

In think we Have a tendency to pack a lot of music in our Ipods, but, actually, we end up listening our favourite pieces. Shuffling implies not choosing next pieces of music to be played and thus sometimes discovering a new work.

Even though I wouldn't advise it, I admit having done The same as Jacck: selecting individual movements from different symphonies.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Always play album from beginning to end!!! If it's very long, you can take a break, then resume were you stopped. I might have deviated from this rule a few times. I have made the mistake of shuffling a newly purchased album from iTunes and noticed suddenly. Baroque flute sonatas with a bit strange keys and tempos. Was almost fooled


----------



## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

I only have one complete work on my iPod (Prokofiev Symp.1), the rest are separate movements, songs, extracts from suites etc. All mixed together with film music, non-classical, jazz etc. I have it on shuffle all the time and love taking pot luck.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

There are definitely some works that are more amenable to shuffling than others. Individual overtures, waltzes, etc. But something like Beethoven 3,5,6 or 9? No way.

I was patient with her and I explained how some symphonies are like stories or movies, building from one theme to a conclusion. She rolled her eyes and thanked me for the music


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Never would have occurred to me until once I accidentally had my iPod on shuffle and got some really freaky and/or amusing juxtapositions. That's when I first noticed the relationship between the opening bars of Mozart's c-minor serenade and Britten's Young Person's Guide. I'm old and know most of the music I play really well, so since then I have sometimes listened on shuffle intentionally for fun.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Years ago, an audiophile friend asked me to bring some classical "songs" to his house to showcase his new streamer so I brought Le Sacre du printemps in 14 flac files and a cuesheet. His then new streamer did not read my cuesheet and messed up the playing order of the flac files. That essentially was shuffling in action. I absolutely went nuts back then, but come to think about it, did it matter? In fact it didn't, since all he wanted was bang bang bang! He didn't care about the music. The accidental shuffling did not matter a single bit.

For most folks here I think the situation is very different. You know the music so you know what you're doing when shuffling. I suppose for some music it could even make sense to shuffle, Chopin's Mazukas perhaps, or Chants d'Auvergne, instead of always listening in the same predictable order, which in itself was not meant to be.

And I suppose most people wouldn't want to shuffle if they are doing "critical listening" (i.e. leave-your-phone-in-the-other-room kind of listening! :lol: ) I definitely don't!!! However, let's admit it, we don't always do "critical listening". I'm actually thinking, maybe the next time I prepare food for a big dinner party I should shuffle the movements of all Beethoven symphonies, just to spice it up a little bit with some unexpected surprises.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I play a lot of classical music, and I never shuffle.
Now, don't get me wrong. I used to. I used to shuffle a lot.
To all kinds of music, especially classical!
But these old legs ain't what they used to be.
So now I'm content to just sit in my recliner and listen to the music. 
My dancin' days are, sadly, over.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Let her and don’t interfere with her enjoyment. If something’s wrong, she’ll figure it out for herself and ask you.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Shuffling of short pieces is fine and sometimes the juxtapositions work wonderfully. You can also avoid breaking up longer works by ensuring that all the movements (or scenes and acts!) are joined together in one file - but it wouldn't make a lot of sense shuffling long works.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Who cares?

Tell her for me, "You do you!"


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MatthewWeflen said:


> As I'm leaving, she says "once you go I'll put the iPod on shuffle and listen to some music."
> 
> AAAAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
> 
> I almost wanted to take the music back to prevent this from happening. I did say that this should not be done and why.


I would take this as a challenge to compile a collection of one-movement classical works. You'd have lots of tone-poems in there, plus a lot of piano pieces. Then when she shuffles, it won't matter.


----------



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

It would be interesting exercise to try making your own symphony by combining movements from various symphonies. Does anyone think the result could be interesting?

Is there any particular combination you'd like to make?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ZJovicic said:


> It would be interesting exercise to try making your own symphony by combining movements from various symphonies. Does anyone think the result could be interesting?
> 
> Is there any particular combination you'd like to make?


It's a new genre: "mix" classical.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

There have been versions of this, such as the (infamous?) Karajan "Adagio" album.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MatthewWeflen said:


> There have been versions of this, such as the (infamous?) Karajan "Adagio" album.


I can never quite see why people are sniffy about this. Why is it 'infamous'? Just a popular compilation for people to enjoy, supremely well played. Or shouldn't we enjoy music?


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'd just be glad she was listening. Most of my mates won't even listen. My one mate with a slight interest thinks Kegel's dreary Bethoven cycle is "the only one I'll ever need" and Tchaikovsky's rubbish 1812 Overture is "the best piece of classical music ever made". (* this is about the time I start rolling my eyes and groaning)


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Classic FM is a good example of a shuffle. When you're driving you don't necessarily want to listen to a whole symphony or Schoenberg's 'Pierre Lunaire' (although some here might) but a selection of the popular classics passes the tedium of driving and can be most enjoyable. And if you don't like a certain piece you know another will be coming shortly


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Classic FM is a good example of a shuffle. When you're driving you don't necessarily want to listen to a whole symphony or Schoenberg's 'Pierre Lunaire' (although some here might) but a selection of the popular classics passes the tedium of driving and can be most enjoyable. And if you don't like a certain piece you know another will be coming shortly


To me, those are good reasons to avoid a station like Classic FM.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> I can never quite see why people are sniffy about this. Why is it 'infamous'? Just a popular compilation for people to enjoy, supremely well played. Or shouldn't we enjoy music?


Doesn't bother me, though I wouldn't buy it, since I could easily just make a playlist with all the material.

I just gather people (not me) view it as an example of the over-commercialization of Karajan.

I get the idea of thematic compilations. I don't get randomness.


----------



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Guilty as charged. I have a big old playlist of (mostly) classical music that I shuffle shamelessly in my car through a thumb drive. But it's only music that lends itself to being played in the car, like Festive Overture (Shostakovich), Candide Overture, some Star Wars stuff, Short Ride in a Fast Machine (hopefully not prophetic). I have a handful of individual movements on there but most of it is one-movement stuff. I see your point about shuffling symphony movements and things of that nature; my playlist is mostly popular cookie-cutter stuff to keep me sane on long car trips. For things like symphonies I simply can't listen without giving it my undivided attention, which would be dangerous on the highway.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Gordontrek said:


> Guilty as charged. I have a big old playlist of (mostly) classical music that I shuffle shamelessly in my car through a thumb drive. But it's only music that lends itself to being played in the car, like Festive Overture (Shostakovich), Candide Overture, some Star Wars stuff, Short Ride in a Fast Machine (hopefully not prophetic). I have a handful of individual movements on there but most of it is one-movement stuff. I see your point about shuffling symphony movements and things of that nature; my playlist is mostly popular cookie-cutter stuff to keep me sane on long car trips. For things like symphonies I simply can't listen without giving it my undivided attention, which would be dangerous on the highway.


I have a playlist I've created for my kids, things they particularly enjoy (Mars, William Tell Overture, Blue Danube, Pachelbel's Canon in D, Tannhauser overture, a few Peer Gynt suites, Mozart Serenade 13, that sort of thing). But none of them are symphonic movements. The closest thing is Bizet's L'Arlesienne No. 2 Farondole. They love Beethoven's 5th and 9th, but I play those whole.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> To me, those are good reasons to avoid a station like Classic FM.


To he it's a good reason for listening to it when driving.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Doesn't bother me, though I wouldn't buy it, since I could easily just make a playlist with all the material.
> 
> I just gather people (not me) view it as an example of the over-commercialization of Karajan.
> 
> I get the idea of thematic compilations. I don't get randomness.


How can Karajan be over commercialised? The guy is dead! I thought it was a marketing ploy to get people who enjoyed the lighter in the classical music buying it. Is that bad? Some of them might of gone on to buy the whole of the symphony, whatever, after that. I know that people like Norman Lebrecht were right sniffy about it, but then apparently anyone who is popular and sells records is to be sniffed that according to them


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Gordontrek said:


> Guilty as charged. I have a big old playlist of (mostly) classical music that I shuffle shamelessly in my car through a thumb drive. But it's only music that lends itself to being played in the car, like Festive Overture (Shostakovich), Candide Overture, some Star Wars stuff, Short Ride in a Fast Machine (hopefully not prophetic). I have a handful of individual movements on there but most of it is one-movement stuff. I see your point about shuffling symphony movements and things of that nature; my playlist is mostly popular cookie-cutter stuff to keep me sane on long car trips. For things like symphonies I simply can't listen without giving it my undivided attention, which would be dangerous on the highway.


The one problem I find with playing CDs in the car is that it is sometimes difficult to hear the wide range of volumes you get on the CD where is the radio has been adjusted for that to compensate for it


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

For those (like me) with older cars without aux jacks or USB connections: These used to be included with all portable CD players and can still be had for about five bucks. They work well with iPods or whatever.


----------



## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

To come back to Karajan, please include his ninth Live Mahler in your next shuffle, as all movements are cut up in many tracks, should be a real mindblowing experience

However, Bach already shuffled his own music into new compositions all the time, Carl Stalling composed a lot of samples into his animation soundtracks (great to listen to!) and since the sampler exists, recorded music is shuffled into new compositions. I love the Beastie Boys (Paul's Boutique), in there you hear all kinds of hidden samples of unusual music, including some classical music.

It is still a dream of me to be a DJ mixing all kinds of music into something new, but this will likely never happen.

As a positive example, I can recommend a listen to Tchaikovsky Symf 4, part 3 (Scherzo. Pizzicato Ostinato - Allegro) as conducted by Mravinsky for DG in 1961. Put the volume up. This is a mindblowing recording which is more convincing when listened too in isolation from the rest of the work.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

A compilation of Scherzos would be nice. Bruckner, Schumann, Mendelssohn. Good for cleaning the house 

It's randomness that gives me the heebie-jeebies.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> How can Karajan be over commercialised? The guy is dead! I thought it was a marketing ploy to get people who enjoyed the lighter in the classical music buying it. Is that bad? Some of them might of gone on to buy the whole of the symphony, whatever, after that. I know that people like Norman Lebrecht were right sniffy about it, but then apparently anyone who is popular and sells records is to be sniffed that according to them


You probably know by now that I am a Karajan fan. So I am not distressed at all by the plethora of his recordings still in print. I can just understand the argument that his catalog is sucking bandwidth from current artists.

Lebrecht is a shriveled, sour hack.


----------



## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

MatthewWeflen said:


> A compilation of Scherzos would be nice. Bruckner, Schumann, Mendelssohn. Good for cleaning the house
> 
> Is randomness that gives me the heebie-jeebies.


The randomness is a mixed blessing, but it's fine most of the time. As I mentioned my background listening collection is of short works, and they are within a limited range. Not much, if any, orchestral. LOTS of Scarlatti - one of my favorites - on different instruments.

I have voice control over my ChromeCast Audios. If I don't want to listen to a track, I just call out, "Hey, Google. Next!'


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> The one problem I find with playing CDs in the car is that it is sometimes difficult to hear the wide range of volumes you get on the CD where is the radio has been adjusted for that to compensate for it


I can't listen to classical in the car. It's like listening to half (or less) or a composition. No thanks. I go with pop or rock in the car.


----------



## dismrwonderful (May 5, 2013)

Sounds to me like a communication breakdown. Knowing the shuffle issue in advance would have allowed me to give her an appropriate playlist of singles like overtures or Chopin, etc. If I was mean I would send her a recording of Parsifal and a sandwich.

Dan


----------

