# Best Well Tempered Clavier?



## Itullian

Love this music. Best ones out there? Piano versions. Thanks


----------



## Polednice

I gather Murray Perahia recorded one of the best-reviewed piano versions.


----------



## kv466

First name starts with a 'G', last name ends with a 'D'.


----------



## Webernite

I find Glenn Gould's a bit irritating. Richter's has poor sound quality. If you want a safe-bet, just buy one of the newer sets, like Schiff's or Ashkenazy's. Gulda's is quite old but I like it too.

I don't think Perahia has recorded it, Polednice.


----------



## Itullian

you guys are a big help. 

thanks poledance.

i'll stick with my Hewitt and Schiff, i guess. :lol:


----------



## Polednice

Webernite said:


> I don't think Perahia has recorded it, Polednice.


What you on about? I have the recording, you fool!


----------



## Polednice

Oh crap, no I don't, I have Goldberg Variations... That's how much attention I pay to stupid Bach. 

Yeah, Hewitt is supposed to be good too.


----------



## kv466

Hey, if we wanna steer this listener down the wrong path by all means. Out of the above mentioned, Gulda is the only one who even understands the music and how it should be played and he does a pretty fine job of it. Heck, let's give 'em Angela Hewitt for that matter! You decide:

*Fugue at 3:53*






And, if you're still awake...*fugue at 1:50*






To me it's like watching Michael Jordan play against a whole team of third graders but I'm weird like that so,...I hope you find what you're looking for.


----------



## Amfibius

I posted this on another forum. The other forum does not have many people who are into classical music, so it was written for that audience in mind. Forgive me if some of the points seem rather obvious or basic to you.

--

I thought I would post a survey of recordings of Bach's Well Tempered Klavier. This piece is very special to me - I got hooked onto it at a young age, and pestered my parents to let me learn the piano. Sadly, I had to give away piano lessons when I migrated and went to university. These days, even five year old girls on Youtube can play better than me. How sad! Never mind, I can listen to recordings instead. So here they are:










*Sviatoslav Richter - RCA Victor*. For many years, this was my favourite version of the WTK. In fact, I have bought it four times - the first was scratched beyond recognition, the second and third I gave to friends, and the fourth is what I listen to.

Richter takes more liberties with the score than most people, and fills the music with colour and buoyancy. In the B-flat major prelude for example, he does a rallantando just before the end of the fugue, and then a tremendous accelerando then stops dead. The implied momentum carries you on hanging on the edge of your seat before he calmly starts the fugue. Such rhythmic contrasts may be frowned upon by most Bach enthusiasts but it is exhilarating to listen to.

Another example - the C Major Prelude (which opens Book I) sounds like morning sunshine. It is so fresh, so buoyant, so full of life. Richter's painted this one with delicate shades, listen carefully from bar to bar - he shades each one slightly differently as if he thought hard about how each bar should sound.

The disc is not without its eccentricities however. The C-minor prelude is played too fast and too loud, the only thing that holds it together is Richter's hypnotic fingering technique. But that's not Bach, that is Richter. There are examples here and there of the music being Richter's but I won't bore you.

Overall, an exciting disc which serves up many interesting takes. I bought this disc in the early 90's, and I still listen to it every few months, so it definitely has staying power.

















*Andras Schiff - Decca Digital*. Schiff is the complete opposite of Richter. Utterly straightlaced, no risks, no fireworks, no fancy reinterpretations of Bach's intentions. Schiff just plays Bach - but if I left it at that, it would be no help to you would it!

Schiff has a beautiful piano tone, Perahia fans take note. He chooses his tempi well - always well judged, such that the slow bits are not too slow, and leaves him enough space to play demisemiquavers without sounding as if he is crowding them together. No dramatic rallantandos or accelerandos here.

His playing of the fugues is examplary but for one little weak point. He places a little too much emphasis on the melodic point, such that it becomes hard to hear what the 2nd and 3rd voices are doing. You know they are there, but they are somewhere in the background. Gould and Landowska do not do this - so their interpretations (Landowska's especially) may be less accessible to beginners, but we Bach fans want to hear everything. You just get the feeling that Schiff's sense of counterpoint is not as strong as Gould's or Landowska's. Or even Richter's.

Once again I have owned this disc for many years. I bought the cassette versions of I and II in the late 80's (was still in high school then!) and enjoyed them for many years. I think I still have them in storage somewhere! I bought the CD's a few years ago and regularly enjoy them.

















*Glenn Gould - Sony Classical*. No WTK collection is complete without Gould's recordings of I and II. A recording of Gould's Bach C-major prelude was chosen to go on the Voyager I spacecraft. I would imagine that some alien race would be so infuriated by what he has done to Bach that they would want to wipe us out immediately.

Gould will at once exasperate and amuse you - so in that sense he is not short of entertainment value. His tone is exceedingly dry, not a beautiful Schiff-like tone, but a dry "piano as a big harpsichord" tone. In fact, that is exactly how he plays - under Gould's hands the piano is not an instrument capable of loud and soft, or of extraordinary range of tone colour - he just plays it like a big harpsichord.

Add to this his annoying tendency to hum and sing and sway to the music (you can hear the swaying as the occasional creak in his chair) and you soon want to dig him out of his grave to kill him again.

But this is not to take away from Gould's accomplishments which is why I eventually decided to buy it for $90 (one of the more expensive WTK sets out there!). Gould plays with tremendous clarity, that dry tone is even clearer than the highly regarded Schiff version. While you could accuse Schiff of dumbing down Bach a little to make him more accessible, no such thing with Gould - here is Bach at his most intellectual. He seems to be saying, "If you don't understand counterpoint, too bad for you!! It's YOUR problem, not Bach's or mine".

His playing isn't always a dry academic exercise either. At times he can be drily humorous, at times he chooses unusual tempi, and at times he can just be dead BORING.

Sum-up. It is quite possible to get fed up of Gould. Despite paying through the nose to buy the disc I don't play it very often. Other versions are more pleasant to listen to.


----------



## Amfibius

*Wanda Landowska - RCA*. (Also available on Naxos). Landowska is the grand old lady of Bach. Even her serene face seems to be infused with Bachian wisdom. You can see from the cover art that she is playing a harpsichord, and so she is.

There is controversy over which is better - the piano or the harpsichord - for the WTK. My own take is - harpsichord may be more historically correct, but it is less accessible for beginners than the piano. The piano has a more pleasant tone, and more readily allows performers to place emphasis on the bits they want you to hear. The piano simply gives more scope for individuality when it comes to performance - as the above discs amply demonstrate. But ... when it comes to Bach, do you think that performers should be allowed to take too much license? I'll let you answer that question.

Landowska clearly thinks not. She once tetchily told a younger pianist "Very well my dear, you play Bach your way, I will play Bach his way".

More than any other, I feel that Landowska reaches deeper into the soul of Bach. She combines Schiff's discipline and unerring sense of tempo, with Gould's uncompromising playing, and adds to it a feeling of gentleness and modesty that many find so attractive about Bach. When she wants to make a musical point, she does not go louder or vary the tempo (like Richter) or hum like a madman (Gould), or hide bits of music (Schiff) - instead, she digs deep and makes her point with beauty and grace. Exactly how she does this is impossible for me to describe. All I can say is that you can hear it and feel it and I don't know what she did with her keyboard.

Downsides of this disc? Well it's a harpsichord. Not just any harpsichord - it is a _Pleyel_ harpsichord. For those who don't know - this harpsichord has a cast iron frame and is made in the manner of a grand piano, except that the strings are plucked, not striked. It has a big, brash sound - many people think it is a truly horrible instrument and they would not be wrong!

Sum-up. Not for everyone, and certainly not for WTK beginners. But definitely worth having if you are a WTK collector.










*Edwin Fischer - EMI*. I bought the Fischer because it is considered THE definitive WTK on piano. This is a very contemplative performance. Fischer shies away from theatrics - no Gould like eccentricities, no Richter-like reinterpretation. Instead you get a quiet and deep look into the WTK.

Fischer's sense of counterpoint is outstanding, every fugue brings new insights. Despite knowing the WTK like the back of my hand, I whooped with joy of new discovery with every prelude and every fugue!

The sound is mono, and below average mono at that. Not comparable to some of the later mono recordings of the 1950's, which are really quite good. This recording is relatively free of tape hiss and crackles, compressed frequency range and compressed dynamics which plague other historic recordings (Furtwangler's 1941 Beethoven 9th springs to mind as a particularly egregious example of a poorly preserved historic recording). It is at least good enough for you to hear what Fischer is doing.










*Angela Hewitt - Hyperion*. This is the earlier of two offerings from Hyperion of the same pianist playing the same work. This was recorded in 1998. The piano used was a Steinway. The newer recording uses a Fazioli. This is why we have hifi systems - so that we can hear the difference between pianos. The Steinway has a bigger, more assertive "Concert Grand" sound. The Fazioli has a more modest, smaller sound with a gorgeous, luminous tone that others have described as "pearlescent". If you listen to this disc in isolation, you will think there is nothing wrong with the Steinway - it is only when you listen to the later recording that you realize that the Fazioli is a better choice. Steinways should be for Prokofiev, Liszt, Rachmaninov, and Scriabin. Fazioli seems to suit Bach better. Perhaps it would be good for Debussy as well.

This was the disc that put Angela Hewitt on the map as the foremost living interpreter of Bach. Hewitt has a trademark grace and simplicity of style that will fool you into thinking that she is expanding no effort at all. This earlier recording is more "conventional" in that it avoids some of the more controversial features in her later recording. In fact, if you were to listen to this, you would think that there is little to recommend it over something like say, Schiff. However, Hewitt imbues each piece with more character - some of them are song-like, some are dance-like, and some of them sound quite princely.

The total effect of her playing is somewhat subtle, which has caused many people to dismiss this performance as boring. When compared to her newer recording, it certainly is.










*Angela Hewitt 2008 - Hyperion*. If you put WTK performances on a spectrum with one end being more authentic (Landowska, Fischer) and the other being more individual (Richter, Gould), Hewitt's earlier recording is in the middle, leaning towards more authentic. People like Landowska and the earlier Hewitt try to make all 48 Preludes and Fugues sound more alike and less individual. Should you make the pieces sound as if they are part of a set, or should you emphasize the individual character of the pieces? If I can sum up this recording in one sentence - the earlier recording is more set-like, the later recording is more individual.

Each individual Prelude and Fugue has a fresh, different approach. She emphasizes the different tempo and varied her tone from piece to piece. Sometimes this can sound disjointed - e.g. when moving from the D Major to D Minor prelude and fugue the contrast in approach was great.

There is also rubato. A LOT of rubato. Unexpected accelerandos and rallantandos. Now, i'm all for rubato but it can be tasteless if used too much. And, is rubato even appropriate with Bach? You decide, but here is where Hewitt shows her mastery - her use of rubato was well considered and did not take anything away from the piece. It really sounds natural.

Hewitt also takes some license with the chords. She would arpeggiate some of them. She license elsewhere as well - she would insert trills where the notes do not indicate trills, and overall her WTK has more adornment than the score. Then again, my score is a music student score. Hers is probably different, given that she is a Bach scholar.










*Gustav Leonhardt - Deutsche Harmonia Mundi*. My copy of this disc came from CDJapan. It is an SACD version of a recording made in 1972. The sound quality is amazing!

This is the second recording in my collection that features a harpsichord from arguably the greatest living harpsichordist. Unlike Landowska's Pleyel harpsichord, Leonhardt uses a period instrument. It sounds more dainty, graceful, and delicate - all good things when it comes to Bach. More than that, there is the trademark Leonhardt sound. Remember that harpsichords do not have loud and soft, so players introduce contrast by playing on different registers (Landowska), or use different timing. Leonhardt uses different inflections - he has a technique where he rests the quill on the string before striking it. With a piano, beats can be emphasized by striking the key harder. Since this is not possible on the harpsichord, players emphasize beats using rhythmic nuances - e.g. a tiny moment of silence before the note. Leonhardt is the most well known exponent of this technique.

More than that, is his unique phrasing. Leonhardt sounds extraordinarily sober and straightlaced. He uses short lines, some rubato, and he makes the music sound as if it is being spoken. Natural speech has commas, periods, and question marks - Leonhardt plays in such a way that the music seems to rise and fall, along with little pauses, mimicking speech. The effect is one of a kindly, patient grandfather explaining something to a small child.

Leonhardt is on record saying that when he is in the recording studio, his aim is to play "neatly". In live performance his aim is to play "beautifully". He certainly sounds neat in this record, but is not lacking in beauty. However, the beauty is not consistent - some of the preludes can sound a bit jarring and unpleasant to listen to. It seems as if the pieces where the density of notes is quite high - e.g. where there are large chords - are the ones where the music sounds the most confused.

Although I think this is definitely a disc worth owning, I do not think it is a fair representation of Leonhardt's ability. If you buy this disc because you want to complete your WTK collection, it is worthwhile. But if you are buying it because you want to hear what Leonhardt can do, look elsewhere.


----------



## Itullian

wow, thanks Amphibian, please take a rest. i'll check these out. 

the rest of you, chill.

there's hope for this crowd yet!!!


----------



## Ukko

Am most impressed all-around with the recording by a certain Russian Jew, initials S.F. The recorded sound is somewhat primitive, but Sam easily overcomes that handicap.

Arthur Loesser does a great job of bringing the music into the understanding of lesser mortals, but his piano is in bad shape, dragging his recording into 2nd place in my pantheon.


----------



## itywltmt

OK. Off the beaten path I go.

I own the WTC recorded by Austrian pianist *Jörg Demus *, and I think it is a very good set.

















The playing is a cross between romantic and baroque, so beware you HIP-sters out there, but for me, this strikes the right balance.

I do stand behind the Gould recordings, as I happen to think (as *kv466 *does) that Gould's Bach on the piano is as close to authoritative as it comes, and it definitely is a "clinic" on this piece, but if you look for a listening experience (relaxing, listening experience that is) then Demus is your guy.

More about the WTC discography here:
http://bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV846-869.htm
http://bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV870-893.htm


----------



## kv466

Hilltroll72 said:


> Am most impressed all-around with the recording by a certain Russian Jew, initials S.F. The recorded sound is somewhat primitive, but Sam easily overcomes that handicap.
> 
> Arthur Loesser does a great job of bringing the music into the understanding of lesser mortals, but his piano is in bad shape, dragging his recording into 2nd place in my pantheon.


Hey, my best friend is a Russian Jew!


----------



## Ukko

kv466 said:


> Hey, my best friend is a Russian Jew!


Um... congratulations?


----------



## Itullian

Demus sounds interesting.

whatever happened to that Spanish named guy that did a whole Bach cycle on piano for Conneseur Society label or something like that? He had one hand or something and his playing was fantastic. remember?


----------



## kv466

Hilltroll72 said:


> Um... congratulations?


No, no. No need. I forgot it wasn't a pm or a messenger, that's all.

So who's the next person that tried to play WTC we're gonna suggest next?


----------



## Ukko

Itullian said:


> Demus sounds interesting.
> 
> whatever happened to that Spanish named guy that did a whole Bach cycle on piano for Conneseur Society label or something like that? He had one hand or something and his playing was fantastic. remember?


Are you thinking of Martins? Pretty sure he's Brazilian though.  Had both hands too.


----------



## Itullian

Hilltroll72 said:


> Are you thinking of Martins? Pretty sure he's Brazilian though.  Had both hands too.


yeah, that's him. played with just a thumb on one hand and 2 fingers on the other, or something like that. amazing.


----------



## Ukko

Itullian said:


> yeah, that's him. played with just a thumb on one hand and 2 fingers on the other, or something like that. amazing.


He became, I think I read, crippled by an ailment similar in effect but not in detail to carpal tunnel. I think I also read that some sort of cure was eventually found. The WTC recordings, (he did them twice) were made before the crippling.

Martins' WTC, especially the second set, is quite unconventional in interpretation - so the critics say. I struggle enough with most recordings of the music that I can't tell if he's unconventional or not.


----------



## pulcinello

*Not the fugue.*

This is the Prelude of the b-flat minor, Bk. II. But I like your assessment of the performances! This is mainly because I started this Prelude and Fugue on Sunday and was questioning Bischoff's instruction that the Prelude should be "tranquillo, con espressione." I said, heck no, and came up with something close to Gould's articulation. Yay me! Anyway, I totally understand your confusion; the Prelude is very fuguey!


kv466 said:


> Hey, if we wanna steer this listener down the wrong path by all means. Out of the above mentioned, Gulda is the only one who even understands the music and how it should be played and he does a pretty fine job of it. Heck, let's give 'em Angela Hewitt for that matter! You decide:
> 
> *Fugue at 3:53*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, if you're still awake...*fugue at 1:50*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me it's like watching Michael Jordan play against a whole team of third graders but I'm weird like that so,...I hope you find what you're looking for.


----------



## starthrower

I've been listening to this music on YouTube all weekend. I really like Richter's playing. Schiff's new recording sounds beautiful. Gulda hits the keys awfully hard. Gould's humming doesn't bother me. Now, the big question. Which recording will keep me coming back for four hours of this stuff?


----------



## Ukko

starthrower said:


> [...]
> Now, the big question. Which recording will keep me coming back for four hours of this stuff?


Beats me. _I_ have a rather strong liking for Sergey Schepkin's playing of Book 2, and Arthur Loesser's Book 1. Except for both books being preludes&fugues, they aren't all that closely related y'know.


----------



## starthrower

I'll look up those players, thanks! I'm going to keep doing the YouTube thing for a while.


----------



## Ravndal

It's no point listening to Bach trough anyone else than Glenn Gould imo, but different tastes...

Tatiana Nikolaeva is pretty good as well


----------



## Itullian

i have Schiffs and Hewitts cycles.
love them both.


----------



## Ukko

Itullian said:


> i have Schiffs and Hewitts cycles.
> love them both.


This is perfectly legal, and qualifies as another example of It Takes All Kinds. If I remember long enough, I will henceforth avoid this loquacity by using ITAK to convey the observation.


----------



## millionrainbows

There are isolated examples of Russian Bach playing in the "Russian Piano School" sets (20 CDs) which deserve mention. Like a multi-faceted jewel, can Bach's WTC be confined to merely one version, by one mortal?

For a complete picture, Peter Watchorn's harpsichord version must be mentioned. He uses Bradley Lehman's recently discovered (2002) "Bach" well-tempered tuning.

--------------------------------->


----------



## Guest

I have Schiff and Perahia on piano, and I prefer Schiff. I have Davitt Moroney on harpsichord, which isn't bad, but not my favorite. I actually greatly enjoy Ralph Kirkpatrick's recording on the clavichord. The sound is much more mellow than a harpsichord, and while not a very "strong" instrument, it makes the music much more transparent, and allows for a greater appreciation of the fugues.

I have been meaning to pick up Hewitt's newer recording. I have sampled Gould, and while I am slowly coming to terms with his 80's recording of the Goldberg Variations, I still don't care much for his interpretations.


----------



## joen_cph

Here´s a* Samuil Feinberg* sample (a private LP transfer made for you-t, the sound is better in CD versions):


----------



## KenOC

millionrainbows said:


> He uses Bradley Lehman's recently discovered (2002) "Bach" well-tempered tuning.


"Discovered" is a strong term...


----------



## DavidA

The first WTK I brought was Glenn Gould. The playing at its best is utterly brilliant and he understood and played Bach's counterpoint probably more than anyone. There are irritations of interpretation but must be taken in context with the sheer virtuosity of the whole. At its best it is unbeatable. By the way it is also available now at a very reasonable price. Well worth getting.

Angela Hewitt Is a welcome antidote to Gould. I have her first set which is full of very beautiful playing. It is not sheerly so exciting as Gould but it is nevertheless very satisfying and it is without the sometimes tiresome eccentricities.

I have recently brought Richter which comes somewhere in between the two. I have not listened to it enough really to give you my expressions but the playing is formidable.


----------



## Jos

View attachment 26879


I'd recommend Richter. As someone here mentioned earlier in the thread the recording is of poor quality. I imagine old Sovjet tapereels that appear to be handcranked.  And still a joy to listen to !!

Cheers,
Jos


----------



## Ravndal

Rosalyn Tureck if you want something completely different!


----------



## Ukko

Of those WTC's I've heard, I prefer Bach's.


----------



## moody

Itullian said:


> Love this music. Best ones out there? Piano versions. Thanks


The Best Tempered Clavier is quite good and slightly better known than his Ill Tempered Clavichord.


----------



## moody

Ravndal said:


> Rosalyn Tureck if you want something completely different!


But what about her clavicle ?


----------



## Ravndal

What about her clavicle?


----------



## starthrower

Listening to the opening prelude and fugue by numerous pianists, and everyone plays differently. Fast, slow, staccato, legato. I like Ms. Tureck. She puts some oomph into this music. Keeps things from getting dull and monotonous. And I like her tempos and articulation. Just right!


----------



## Bulldog

Favorite piano set is Tureck. Other exceptional piano versions come from Koroliov, Crossland, Schiff (ECM), Gould, Gulda, Vieru, Woodward, Fellner and Schepkin.

Favorite harpsichord set is Wilson. Other great versions are Leonhardt, van Asperen, Gilbert, Moroney, Watchorn, Belder, Suzuki and Pechefsky.

I've likely missed a few.


----------



## starthrower

Over three years later, and I still haven't decided on a recording. But I like Gustav Leonhardt, and Luc Beausejour on harpsichord, and Edwin Fischer, and Schiff's recordings on ECM. Many musicians play too slow, and Aimard, and Hewitt play like they're in a nursery lulling infants to sleep. I don't understand the velvety sound and untra soft touch? This is baroque keyboard music.

Edwin Fischer plays the best, but I don't care for old, musty recordings. Schiff sounds similar to Fischer, but in great sound. Bob Van Asperen, and Pieter-Jan Belder have the best sounding harpsichords, but play a little too slow. So I'm going with Beausejour on harpsichord, and Schiff on piano. And will probably get the Gould too, even if Glenn is a bit rudimentary sounding on the opening prelude.


----------



## Pugg

Sviatoslav Richter on RCA will always be my favourite.


----------



## gnorrn

International Piano Quarterly did a comprehensive survey of the WTC a while ago, and ended up preferring Demus -- but not his Westminster / MCA recording (though it found that excellent too), but a remake on Intercord LP IIRC. I've never found it.


----------



## DarkAngel

Best piano version for me is Samuel Feinberg, hard to find but Pristine XR has best sound when website is back up










On Tidal they have this:


----------



## jegreenwood

DarkAngel said:


> Best piano version for me is Samuil Feinberg, hard to find but Pristine XR has best sound when website is back up


Love the performance but don't care for Pristine's mastering at all. Mandryka, on this forum, sent me a much better mastering. For that matter I prefer the mastering (or maybe it's one of the masterings) on Tidal.


----------



## tdc

My favorites are Schiff on Piano and Gilbert on harpsichord:


----------



## DarkAngel

For Harpsicord complete both books I will go with Schornsheim playing 1624 Ruckers instrument










Hantai has great book I but no follow up book II yet...........


----------



## DarkAngel

Best new harpsicord entry for me is Celine Frisch who plays in a bolder more virtuoso style like Schornscheim and Hantai.......










I was expecting to really like Christophe Rousset since his previous Bach all rank near the best for me but his WTC is strangely reserved and "tempered" from this artist, a bit of a mystery..........


----------



## quietfire

I know this is an old topic, but I wonder if any new good recordings have come out?

For some reason, I am not really satisfied with any WTC recordings that I've heard - I have tried all the above suggestions. I want a sound that is consistent with Igor Levit's Partitas and Goldberg Variations (both of which I think are perfect).

I feel like there is still something off with every WTC recording that I have come across. I want something that is grounded yet light and crystal clear.


----------



## KenOC

The newer Schiff WTC (mentioned on Jan 27) remains my favorite. Harpsichord lovers should look elsewhere, of course.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Edwin Fischer FTW. There are no eccentricities but every piece comes up new-minted. It's the kind of performance Dinu Lipatti might have given had he recorded this music, and for me there's no higher praise for a pianist than that.


----------



## Vaneyes




----------



## hpowders

On harpsichord only:

Gustav Leonhardt, Kenneth Weiss and Luc Beauséjour.

Good_ Luc!_ Come _Bach _and let me know how it's going.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I agree on Edwin Fischer FTW, but I have to say I got Samuel Feinberg based on recommendations in this thread and was blown away! His version surpasses even Richter and is right up there with Fischer. Those are the only two piano versions I need at the moment. Otherwise on harpsichord I like Landowska (phenomenal) and Gilbert. One more worth hearing is Helmut Walcha on DG Archiv which is regrettably impossible to find but available on YouTube.

So my four preferred versions are:


----------



## quietfire

KenOC said:


> The newer Schiff WTC (mentioned on Jan 27) remains my favorite. Harpsichord lovers should look elsewhere, of course.


Yes, okay, I think Schiff's ECM record of the WTC is sufficiently good for now.

Edit: actually I might take that back! He made a disturbing wrong note in WTC 1 Prelude 6 in d minor, second bar, 12th note on the RH, he played an F instead of a D, completely destroying the harmony.

I checked his earlier recording with Decca, and indeed he played it correctly there. What a blunder, now the ECM recording is blemished.

I recognised the wrong note immediately because I used to play this prelude every day.


----------



## JSBach85

I have two recordings:

Pierre Hantai / Mirare








Ottavio Dantone / ARTS


----------



## Omicron9

Like everything else in music or art, there is no "best." However, my favorite version on piano is probably Edward Aldwell. Superb.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

He's an extremely fine Bach player. I have his CD of the Art of Fugue and the French Overture.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Don't think this one has been mentioned. Picked it up for $2.50 US. Then read reviews on it. It's said to be an even handed , moderate approach with little to take issue about. Anyway, it's the only version I have heard and sounds good to me.


----------



## Bulldog

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Don't think this one has been mentioned. Picked it up for $2.50 US. Then read reviews on it. It's said to be an even handed , moderate approach with little to take issue about. Anyway, it's the only version I have heard and sounds good to me.
> View attachment 93931


Roberts sound good to me also. My problem is that his interpretations are quite mainstream and harmless; there's little there to amaze me. However, it's a fantastic version while driving, and that's worth a lot to me.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

This is an outstanding Book II. And the best part of it is free from internet archive.

Well Tempered Clavier. Twenty-four Preludes and Fugues, BWV 870-893
Jörg Demus (Piano)
(Studio recording, 1970).


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Probably well known about this from Amazon for $.99 US. Horzowski plays WTC Book I. He and Demus mentioned in the last post are equal to any other as far as I can tell.


----------



## hpowders

All on harpsichord:

Gustav Leonhardt, Kenneth Weiss and Luc Beauséjour.

You folks are Luc-ky I came along.


----------



## Holden4th

My initial foray into the WTC was playing many of them myself. When I decided to get a CD version I started cheap via Naxos and got Jando. It still compares quite well to other recordings I have owned. At one stage Schiff (earlier version) was al the rage so I got it and was left cold. 

There are two sets I always come back to, both Russian. Richter' RCA recording always makes me feel that this is emotional music. Feinberg does so as well. I don't feel that I will need to buy another set.

One honourable mention, purely for his approach, is Gulda. He has rethought many of the P&Fs in interesting ways and his almost total lack of sustain pedal creates a unique effect in this music, bringing out all the intermingled voices.


----------



## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Roberts sound good to me also. My problem is that his interpretations are quite mainstream and harmless; there's little there to amaze me. However, it's a fantastic version while driving, and that's worth a lot to me.


I'm quite curious to know what you make of Peter Hill's - I'm enjoying it more and more.


----------



## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> I'm quite curious to know what you make of Peter Hill's - I'm enjoying it more and more.


I find Hill's WTC a very gentle version of much beauty and delectable pianism. BUT, that's not really what I'm looking for in this body of music. Hill doesn't offer much excitement or depth of expression. I'll just provide one area of reference - Bach's fugues in the minor keys where he often gives us the dark side of human nature with infrequent rays of illuminating light. Those rays of light can only be highly compelling if the preceding bars are dark as hell; Mr. Hill doesn't deliver the darkness. Overall, Hill has his virtues, but they are limited and my interest declines as the work progresses. By the way, the sound quality is wonderful.


----------



## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> I find Hill's WTC a very gentle version of much beauty and delectable pianism. BUT, that's not really what I'm looking for in this body of music. Hill doesn't offer much excitement or depth of expression. I'll just provide one area of reference - Bach's fugues in the minor keys where he often gives us the dark side of human nature with infrequent rays of illuminating light. Those rays of light can only be highly compelling if the preceding bars are dark as hell; Mr. Hill doesn't deliver the darkness. Overall, Hill has his virtues, but they are limited and my interest declines as the work progresses. By the way, the sound quality is wonderful.


Yes Hill doesn't find the darkness or the contrasts, you are right. Thanks for such an interesting reply.


----------



## birdonwireless

*Oh!*



kv466 said:


> Hey, if we wanna steer this listener down the wrong path by all means. Out of the above mentioned, Gulda is the only one who even understands the music and how it should be played and he does a pretty fine job of it. Heck, let's give 'em Angela Hewitt for that matter! You decide:


Absolutely right! I guess the work needs a German touch! Instantly sounds correct after each of the sappy renditions, or Gould's overly chirpy one.

Brilliant recording!


----------



## Josquin13

There is no best, but on piano, I'd agree with others that a number of the Russian pianists left us excellent WTCs--Samuel Feinberg, Sviatoslav Richter (--there are multiple versions by Richter, but I especially like his early DG selections), Tatiana Nikolayeva, and a Russian pianist that rarely gets mentioned, but deserves to be for his WTC, Valery Afanassiev. A student of Emil Gilels, early in his career Afanassiev won the Bach Leipzig competition, and IMO, subsequently produced a very interesting WTC (for Denon). Some listeners can find Afanassiev's interpretations to be on the challenging side (slow tempi, etc.), as Pogorelich can be. But, like Pogorelich, over time, I've found that Afanassiev usually wins me over. Though I wouldn't say his Bach is especially challenging or difficult, just as long as you understand that Bach played on the piano is always a transcription, as Glenn Gould once said. Indeed, you can't expect the pianist to play the piano as if it's a harpsichord. Afanassiev isn't HIP--though I did find myself wondering if he'd ever played this music on an organ, as it sounds like it at times, due to his often slowish, relaxed tempo choices (which remind me a bit of Bob van Asperen's WTC). I just enjoy it for what it is--a fine musician exploring great music that he clearly deeply loves.










With that said, however, I would very much like to hear the former harpsichordist, Virginia Black, who has been playing Baroque music on the piano lately, play & record the WTC. As a pianist turned harpsichordist turned back to pianist, Black brings special insights to Baroque music. For example, I thought her 6 Partitas were exceptional:






Another pianist that has considered this music from the standpoint of a harpsichordist is Edward Aldwell. I'd bet that Aldwell listened closely to Gustav Leonhardt's WTC, as interpretatively his Bach can sometimes remind me of Leonhardt's (& especially in the French Suites). Though you'll have to be on board with Schenkerian musical analysis, since like Wilhelm Fürtwangler and pianist Elizabeth Rich, Aldwell was an practitioner of this late 19th century approach to music. Which means that his rhythms aren't always metronome steady, but like Furtwangler, his variances are done for expressive purposes.










Ivo Jansson is likewise excellent in the WTC (though I prefer Aldwell).

In the future, I'm looking forward to Andrea Bacchetti tackling this music at some point, as part of his ongoing Bach series. I thought Bacchetti's French Suites on Sony were remarkable. Among other current pianists, I'd most like to hear (the already mentioned) Virginia Black, Dubravka Tomsic and David Fray play this music (& Ivo Pogorelich too, who's exceptional in Bach). Tomsic recorded one of my favorite CDs of Bach's Italian Concerto and Partita No. 1 (& what a pity the record labels haven't contracted her to record more Bach!!!), while Fray did brilliant recordings of the Bach keyboard concertos & some of the Partitas: https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Keyboar..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=MPVQQNRCM8REHF2EMXD3. Other current pianists that might do interesting WTCs include Igor Levit, Caspar Frantz, Franscesco Tristano, Francesco Pietmontesi, and Murray Perahia...

Among recent versions on piano, lately I've been listening to WTCs from Pietro de Maria and Peter Hill. Of these two, I've found myself returning to de Maria's a bit more, but they're both good. Among others, I should probably return to Til Fellner's WTC Book 1. I wasn't altogether crazy about it the first time around, but maybe should give it a second chance, as I've liked Fellner's playing elsewhere.

Among older versions, I have a soft spot for the musical integrity of Mieczyslaw Horszowski's Vanguard recordings, though I haven't listened to his Bach in a while.






On harpsichord, I liked Kenneth Weiss' WTC more initially, than I have with further listening. Presently, I prefer Bob van Asperen, Leon Berben, Pieter-Jan Belder (especially his Book 2), Gustav Leonhardt, Peter Watchorn, and Pierre Hantai in Book 1. I haven't heard enough of Christophe Rousset's recent WTC set (only his Book 2) to yet form an opinion.

Among current harpsichordists, I'd most like to hear WTCs from Pascal Dubreuil, whose 6 Partitas strongly impressed me, Christian Rieger, whose Art of the Fugue impressed me, Fabio Bonizzoni, and possibly Blandine Rannou. Finally, I hope to at some point hear the WTCs of Christine Schornsheim, Ottavio Dantone, and Zuzana Ruzickova, too.

My two cents.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

Oldhoosierdude said:


> This is an outstanding Book II. And the best part of it is free from internet archive.
> 
> Well Tempered Clavier. Twenty-four Preludes and Fugues, BWV 870-893
> Jörg Demus (Piano)
> (Studio recording, 1970).


Update on this. His C major prelude from Bk 1, which is so easy, yet so impossibly hard; followed by the fugue, which is no walk in the park for any pianist. Absolute Perfection:






He recorded them twice, I think. This is definitely the earlier recording, and by far the best.


----------



## Over the Rainbow

On Harpsichord Leonhardt DHM Rigorous, cerebral version with a superlative technique.
On piano Richter RCA slightly romanticized personal version but a timeless version


----------



## Dimace

For Bach,* Andras Schiff.* Nothing else. (for me of course) The man knows so much music, making every recording of him not only a joy to listen but mainly an outstanding musical lesson.


----------



## Josquin13

Dimace--Which Schiff WTC do you prefer? The Decca or later ECM set?

One WTC that I forgot to mention in my above post is pianist Evelyne Crochet's. It has received high praise from the likes of Trevor Pinnock (see quote below): Crochet is an underrated Bach pianist for sure (though she plays the opening Prelude of book 1 a shade too fast for my tastes--as I prefer Asperen & Afanassiev's slowness with this Prelude):










" I have been listening to your recording of Bach Wohltemperierte Clavier and it has moved me so deeply that I simply have to write to say thank you, for it has enriched my day on an extraordinary level. Your music speaks directly to the inner spirit in a way which is so rare. I normally do not listen to recordings but your Bach is irresistible. How much the world needs music making that reveals deep truth in this way! Thank you for this great gift. "

Trevor Pinnock

Of her Bach Goldberg Variations, Alfred Brendel had this to say:

" In her remarkable Goldberg Variations, Evelyne Crochet is the very rare case of a pianist who, after working for decades in near-seclusion, has emerged as a Bach-player of considerable stature. Her cantabile permeates all the voices. But there is also an impish side that keeps the rhythm alive. Her technical control has remained impeccable. My congratulations! "


----------



## KenOC

Josquin13 said:


> Dimace--Which Schiff WTC do you prefer? The Decca or later ECM set?


Answering (for myself): I always found the older Decca set unremarkable and seldom listened to it. Schiff's newer ECM set is, to me, astonishing -- something really special. It's kind of an anti-Gould approach, but it joins Gould at the top of my heap. And no singing!


----------



## DarkAngel

> Among current harpsichordists, I'd most like to hear WTCs from Pascal Dubreuil, whose 6 Partitas strongly impressed me, Christian Rieger, whose Art of the Fugue impressed me, Fabio Bonizzoni, and possibly Blandine Rannou. Finally, I hope to at some point hear the WTCs of Christine Schornsheim, Ottavio Dantone, and Zuzana Ruzickova, too.
> 
> My two cents.


Add another to the list - John Butt (of Dunedin Consort fame) on harpsicord sounds very good to me, excellent sound on Linn Records label, check some samples at Presto UK......I just ordered used copy at Amazon

From gramophone mag review:



> _Listeners resigned to heavy, ponderous readings of the D major, E flat and B flat minor Fugues will be relieved at Butt's joyful speeds, as well as his fluid and flexible accounts of the ricecare-like F sharp minor and E major Fugues...Butt offers plenty of food for thought, along with his own extensive annotations discussing both the music and issues of performance practice_


----------



## DarkAngel

Just ordered this piano WTC, very exciting unique sound that stands out to me, dramatic yet nuanced when needed, a female version of Fasil Say? Almost unknown artist on small label, nice youtube sampling of WTC below......






BBC Music Mag:



> _How refreshing and deeply compelling to encounter Alexandra Papastefanou's no-holds-barred, red-blooded, freely yet subtly pedalled responses to this era-defining compendium. As if entranced by the music's purely expressive contours, Papastefanou imbues Bach's imperious musical logic with a rich humanity and emotional narrative. Inauthentic? Almost certainly. Musically in the moment and convincing? Absolutely_


----------



## Mandryka

DarkAngel said:


> Just ordered this piano WTC, very exciting unique sound that stands out to me, dramatic yet nuanced when needed, a female version of Fasil Say? Almost unknown artist on small label, nice youtube sampling of WTC below......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBC Music Mag:


The booklet by someone called Jonathan Summers (a name familiar to me, but I can't say why) starts off saying this about Bk 1



> It is known that Bach himself tuned his harpsichords and clavichords to something near what we would today call 'equal temperament', which basically means that the instrument is so tuned in order that one can modulate to any key without the intervals sounding out of tune.


And follows it up with this about Bk 2



> By now, equal temperament was established and a more melodic and less contrapuntal musical style was in vogue. Bach reflects his time in this new work.


I've only listened to the first half dozen pieces from Bk 2. She doesn't use dynamic variation for short phrases much, if at all. She likes to use noticeable rubato from time to time.

I wonder what sort of piano it is - electric or mechanical.



DarkAngel said:


> BBC Music Mag:
> How refreshing and deeply compelling to encounter Alexandra Papastefanou's no-holds-barred, red-blooded, freely yet subtly pedalled responses to this era-defining compendium. As if entranced by the music's purely expressive contours, Papastefanou imbues Bach's imperious musical logic with a rich humanity and emotional narrative. Inauthentic? Almost certainly. Musically in the moment and convincing? Absolutely


Whoever wrote this needs a new pair of ears.


----------



## Bulldog

DarkAngel said:


> Just ordered this piano WTC, very exciting unique sound that stands out to me, dramatic yet nuanced when needed, a female version of Fasil Say? Almost unknown artist on small label, nice youtube sampling of WTC below......


I've listened to her complete WTC one time.I like it very much although I can't say there's any feature that really knocks me out. I think it's a version that would appeal to most Bach keyboard enthusiasts. Maybe additional hearings will reveal something special.

By the way, her piano is a Steinway Model D.


----------



## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> I've listened to her complete WTC one time.I like it very much although I can't say there's any feature that really knocks me out. I think it's a version that would appeal to most Bach keyboard enthusiasts. Maybe additional hearings will reveal something special.
> 
> By the way, her piano is a Steinway Model D.


Now do you know it's a model D Steinway? I couldn't see it in the booklet.


----------



## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Now do you know it's a model D Steinway? I couldn't see it in the booklet.


The recording is on NML with the attached booklet - it's toward the bottom.


----------



## Mandryka

Thanks, I must have missed it. I don’t much like the tone she produces, at least as it’s recorded.


----------



## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Thanks, I must have missed it. I don't much like the tone she produces, at least as it's recorded.


Really? I thought the recorded sound was outstanding.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> The booklet by someone called Jonathan Summers (a name familiar to me, but I can't say why)...
> 
> Whoever wrote this needs a new pair of ears.


Must be him:

www.jonathansummers.org/biography.html

The words you quoted from the booklet is of course nonsense.


----------



## KenOC

From the samples, the sound is good and she has a nice variety of touches. But sometimes she seems to slur or smear a phrase, and some of her agogics are all agoogly (to coin a word). Overall, her playing is a bit too cute for my taste. And I agree she needs a different program notes writer.


----------



## DarkAngel

> The words you quoted from the booklet is of course nonsense.





> And I agree she needs a different program notes writer


The comments quoted are *not* from the CD booklet writer, they are from a review in BBC Music Mag as noted in original post


----------



## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> From the samples, the sound is good and she has a nice variety of touches. But sometimes she seems to slur or smear a phrase, and some of her agogics are all agoogly (to coin a word). Overall, her playing is a bit too cute for my taste. And I agree she needs a different program notes writer.


Is your avatar Walter Raleigh?

Sometimes she uses agogic hesitations to draw attention to a phrase, and the way she uses them are difficult for me to make sense of, but it's not always, or indeed often, like that in the first half of Bk 2.

I must say,a « variety of touches » is the least one can expect for someone who's presenting themselves as a professional pianist.

What do you think of her restrained dynamic variation? I thought it was a real strength.


----------



## Mandryka

DarkAngel said:


> The comments quoted are *not* from the CD booklet writer, they are from a review in BBC Music Mag as noted in original post


Ken may have been talking about the comments about temperament and galant style which I pasted.


----------



## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Really? I thought the recorded sound was outstanding.


yes, really, whether it's the recording or the way she plays I can't say. It was colourless and there was very little by way of audible partials or resonant overtones. And very little contrast of timbre between the bass, midrange and treble registers. The piano seemed not particularly well balanced either - weaker in the bass maybe - though I could be wrong about that, I'm going from memory. That's why I thought it may be an electric instrument. Maybe it's a case of NML sounding better than Qobuz - the poorer the sound quality, the less you hear, the better!

One thing I should let you know though, I'm becoming increasingly intolerant of piano sound. Or at least this: I think that it takes a very very good pianist to make a piano tone sound interesting to me. Having said that, I thought the new Lonquich Schubert sounded good (whatever you think of the interpretation) - give it a liseten and I bet you'll hear why I'm a bit surprised that papastephanou was using a quality instrument. I'm not sure if Lonquich is playing the same type of piano as Papastephanou,

But you know, a Steinway D is not an easy instrument to « drive », if I tried to play one I would lose control and it would sound crap.


----------



## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> Is your avatar Walter Raleigh?


Henry Hudson. ………………….


----------



## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Henry Hudson. ………………….


Henry Hudson, Francis Drake, Walter Raleigh, John Donne all look the same to me.

Like Brahms, Marx and Darwin

Apollo, Alexander the Great and King David


----------



## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> yes, really, whether it's the recording or the way she plays I can't say. It was colourless and there was very little by way of audible partials or resonant overtones. And very little contrast of timbre between the bass, midrange and treble registers. The piano seemed not particularly well balanced either - weaker in the bass maybe - though I could be wrong about that, I'm going from memory.


You convinced me. I'm ordering the set - will be the only First Hand Record I own.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Ken may have been talking about the comments about temperament and galant style which I pasted.


Yes, and so was I.


----------



## joen_cph

I've only listened to the youtube above and was much more accustomed to an energetic approach to the Fugue (Feinberg, for example), but concluded that I would need to hear more in order to have an opinion ... there may be major differences from piece to piece.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> The words you quoted from the booklet is of course nonsense.


It does seem to be inspired by the same sort of ideas as you read in Christoph Wolff's essay here

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/j-s-bach-wtc


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> It does seem to be inspired by the same sort of ideas as you read in Christoph Wolff's essay here
> 
> https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/j-s-bach-wtc


Yes, but I am happy for Wolff's conclusion:

_Additionally, Johann Philipp Kirnberger reported that his teacher Bach "expressly demanded of him that all major thirds should be sharpened." It is not possible to deduce any precise temperament from this information, but it suggests that Bach's pragmatic well-tempered tuning was clearly on the way to equal temperament that eventually was to become the norm. *However, he obviously preferred an unequal temperament solution in which the different characters of the keys, although significantly weakened, were nevertheless retained*._


----------



## Mandryka

It’s a shame that Bach didn’t explain more about his ideas about temperament and registration, I guess he wasn’t very good at writing prose, hence the absence of textbooks with prefaces à la Francois Couperin and Georg Muffat.


----------



## Larkenfield

...............


----------



## starthrower




----------



## premont

Larkenfield said:


> ...............


Well, you have got some points there.


----------



## DarkAngel

vs









Anyone have a preference for either old/new Schiff WTC and why, comments.........


----------



## Itullian

^^^^I only have the first set and it's my favorite WTC.
It's clear and beautifully played and recorded.
Never felt the need for his second one.
But I like my Bach simple with little idiosyncrasies.
Just beautifully played.
I have his box set of Bach and love it.


----------



## Bulldog

DarkAngel said:


> vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have a preference for either old/new Schiff WTC and why, comments.........


I prefer the new set - it's less mannered and fussy than the first.


----------



## KenOC

Bulldog said:


> I prefer the new set - it's less mannered and fussy than the first.


I agree. The new Schiff set is one of the very best there is.


----------



## Mandryka

Itullian said:


> ^^^^I only have the first set and it's my favorite WTC.
> It's clear and beautifully played and recorded.
> Never felt the need for his second one.
> But I like my Bach simple with little idiosyncrasies.
> Just beautifully played.
> I have his box set of Bach and love it.


Maybe the second is a bit more frank, simpler and less demanding to access. But that's not necessarily a good thing.


----------



## KenOC

I have never been able to discern any difference between the two books of the WTC. Although written some years apart, both reside on the same plane of excellence.


----------



## Mandryka

Schiff makes this claim.

https://vanrecital.com/2012/09/program-notes-andras-schiff-performs-bach/



> The significance of the title lies in Bach's intent to prove the practicality of adopting a new system of tuning the clavier (a generic term for keyboard instruments at the time, but referring mostly to the harpsichord), namely by means of artificially dividing the scale into twelve equal semitones, hence overriding its natural acoustic divisions into unequal semitones which produced severe problems of intonation.


Presumably he's talking about Bk 1 since, as far as I know, Bach left no title page for Book II.


----------



## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> I have never been able to discern any difference between the two books of the WTC. Although written some years apart, both reside on the same plane of excellence.


Some people think Bk 2 is inferior to Bk 1. Bach never bothered to bind Bk 2 together, or to give it a title, so it's easy to jump to the conclusion that it wasn't important for him, just a collection of pieces for teaching. For example, in Ralph Kirkpatrick's book _Interpreting Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier_ he says WTC 2 is just



> excerpts from a poet's diary or an artist's sketch-book, put in posterior order


I have to say that, informally, the the invention in WTC 2 seems to me to tell against the idea that it's a secondary work. But I'm no expert!

What I don't know is whether there are any affective possibilities of the different key signatures which are explored more profoundly in Bk 2 than in Bk 1 -- I'm suggesting that it's worth exploring the idea that Bach had drawn the conclusion that Bk 1 doesn't go deeply enough.

Neither have I seen any studies of number symbolism in Bk 2, if there is any. It may be that number symbolism is a big structural/semantic element.


----------



## tdc

The newer Schiff is my favorite piano version, however I haven't listened to the older Schiff recording.

As far as the 2 parts to this work I agree that Books I and II of the WTC are on a similar high level of quality, I used to lean towards Book I now I lean towards Book II. Book I seems perhaps more melodic and Book II perhaps more focused on counterpoint and experimentation. The first book seemed more initially accessible to my ears. Although I've heard some claim Book I sounds more pedantic and Book II shows artistic growth. Personally I'm not sure that it is possible to exceed the artistic quality of Book I, but there you have it.

Both books are indispensable to me.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bulldog said:


> Favorite piano set is Tureck. Other exceptional piano versions come from Koroliov, Crossland, Schiff (ECM), Gould, Gulda, Vieru, Woodward, Fellner and Schepkin.
> 
> Favorite harpsichord set is *Wilson*. Other great versions are Leonhardt, van Asperen, Gilbert, Moroney, *Watchorn*, Belder, Suzuki and Pechefsky.
> 
> I've likely missed a few.


I listen to Watchorn's WTC 1 on a regular basis using that mighty pedal harpsicord, but I am puzzled by his WTC 2 which is played with much slower tempos stretching over 3 CDs, what is the purpose of this style change?

















I do wish Glen Wison's WTC was more widely available, a really fine harpsicord version I do agree.........


----------



## Bulldog

DarkAngel said:


> I listen to Watchorn's WTC 1 on a regular basis using that mighty pedal harpsicord, but I am puzzled by his WTC 2 which is played with much slower tempos stretching over 3 CDs, what is the purpose of this style change?


Just speculating. Maybe Watchorn considered Bk 2 to have the more profound music that would benefit from slower tempos.


----------



## Mandryka

In the booklet to Bk 2 Watchorn says something which I thought was not the case, the bit in bold here



> Twenty or so years after the completion of The Well-Tempered Clavier, Bach's compendium of elaborate preludes and fugues in all possible major and minor keys, the composer doubled the size of this great enterprise by revising early works, composing new ones *and then compiling the 48 resulting pieces into a new volume whose title made clear its direct connection to the earlier set.* Indeed, it is impossible to consider the incredible scope of the entire work without comparing and contrasting the various stylistic developments that took place in the nearly quarter of a century that separates the compilation of each book.


I could easily be wrong, though I know the manuscript in London doesn't contain all of WTC 2. Where is the compilation of all 48 which J S Bach made? What does the title page say?

Has Watchorn ever published anything which "compares and contrasts the stylistic developments . . . "?


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> I could easily be wrong, though I know the manuscript in London doesn't contain all of WTC 2. Where is the compilation of all 48 which J S Bach made? What does the title page say?


That the composers manuscript is missing makes no difference. Here is a quote from Malcolm Boyd's book about Bach (concerning WTC II):

_The title Well-tempered Clavier does not this time appear on Bach's autograph, but it is found in a revised version copied under his supervision by his future son-in-law J. C. Altnickol in 1744. _


----------



## Mandryka

This is the title page that J. C. Altnickol wrote









It's only Bk 2 of course. When I read Watchorn's comment



> compiling the 48 resulting pieces into a new volume whose title made clear its direct connection to the earlier set.


I thought he meant Bach had made a single volume with WTC 1 and WTC 2, but I see now that he counts the preludes separately from the fugues. My bad.

Note there's no Lehman curlicue to indicate tuning -- but then it wasn't for publication.

It sounds like when Altnickol came to work for Bach the music for WTC2 was "work in progress" and he asked his new assistant to copy it out in one place.

As far as I can see it's not clear how closely Bach supervised it, or to what extent it represents Bach's final thinking about the music.

So while it's not a definitive version, the Altnickol manuscript shows that Bach was serious enough about developing the music in WTC 2 to get what he had collected together.


----------



## Over the Rainbow

Thanks to BULLDOG for the discovering of Tureck DG, now I have two references this one and Richter.

Thanks a lot :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Thoughts on best WTC from Hewitt.........or do you aviod altogether?








1998-99 Steinway piano















2008 Fazioli piano


----------



## Itullian

The bottom one is a box set, which I have and love.
A bit more "dreamy" than Schiff, but beautiful.
It's all Steinway.
She has newer Goldbergs and WTC out on the Fazioli which I haven't heard.
I am extremely happy with her earlier set.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> The bottom one is a box set, which I have and love.
> A bit more "dreamy" than Schiff, but beautiful.
> It's all Steinway.
> She has newer Goldbergs and WTC out on the Fazioli which I haven't heard.
> I am extremely happy with her earlier set.


I thought that the box set pictured contained the more recent (Fazioli) WTC.


----------



## jegreenwood

The set with the piano on the cover is the older set. (I have it.)


----------



## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> I thought that the box set pictured contained the more recent (Fazioli) WTC.


The blue cover is a box set of all her solo Bach recording, not just the WTC.
The top is the set is the older WTC.
The middle is the newer WTC.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> The blue cover is a box set of all her solo Bach recording, not just the WTC.
> The top is the set is the older WTC.
> The middle is the newer WTC.


The Hewitt blue box *includes* the 2008 WTC set pictured next to it.............


----------



## Itullian

Are you sure DA?
How do you know which set is included?
All the discs in the set say 2010.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> The blue cover is a box set of all her solo Bach recording, not just the WTC.


I know - I have it. I was trying to point out that you already have the newer WTC if you have that set.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Are you sure DA?
> How do you know which set is included?
> All the discs in the set say 2010.


Yes Hewitt blue box includes 2008 WTC using fazioli piano, you can buy entire blue boxset for just a little more than individual 2008 WTC boxset at Amazon so a much better deal...........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes blue box includes 2008 WTC Fazioli piano, you can buy entire blue boxset for little more than individual 2008 WTC boxset at Amazon so a much better deal...........


I have it ................


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Yes Hewitt blue box includes 2008 WTC using fazioli piano, you can buy entire blue boxset for just a little more than individual 2008 WTC boxset at Amazon so a much better deal...........


I got my copy on eBay for $16.:devil:


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Best new harpsicord entry for me is Celine Frisch who plays in a bolder more virtuoso style like Schornscheim and Hantai.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was expecting to really like Christophe Rousset since his previous Bach all rank near the best for me but his WTC is strangely reserved and "tempered" from this artist, a bit of a mystery..........












Update Frisch has just released WTC II set, also available on Tidal streaming (which I am doing now) No let down from wonderful WTC I performance, I have ordered CD set.......

Tidal really has huge Bach collection now, Bulldog will be pleased to know that even favorite Glen Wilson is available! Also Sam Feinberg - WTC, Dershavina - Goldberg and more.....


----------



## Mandryka

The Frisch is very nice,she plays authoritatively and somehow rather naturally. A great sense of variety. Good instrument too (after Christian Vater) and well enough recorded.


----------



## NLAdriaan

The ones I treasure:
Pollini (book I only), a relatively recent entry, not yet mentioned here, really worthwile








Richter (RCA fine with me)

Gould

On my wishlist (having listened to it on Spotify):
Gulda's MPS recording of the 70's


----------



## Mandryka

Any opinions on Koroliov's wtc2


----------



## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Any opinions on Koroliov's wtc2


Although I have not listened to it for about 2 years, I have his WTC 1 and 2 - love them both. Easily his best Bach on record.


----------



## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Although I have not listened to it for about 2 years, I have his WTC 1 and 2 - love them both. Easily his best Bach on record.


I was coming to this impression too. The French Suites are maybe too quirky.

(I decided to explore Koroliov after someone gave me a wonderful concert recording of the Diabelli Variations. So far there are high points and low points, I was very surprised by how interesting his Schubert can be, and some of his Beethoven; his Chopin is more challenging for me.)

(Looking forward to reading your thoughts about the new Frisch, which I like very much.)


----------



## hoodjem

Polednice said:


> What you on about? I have the recording, you fool!


What label is it on?


----------



## flamencosketches

^I think with his next post, he clarified that he doesn't have a Perahia WTC, and that it may not exist, he was conflating it with the Goldberg Variations.

On topic: my favorites are Sviatoslav Richter (miles beyond the competition for me...), András Schiff (his first set on Decca), Wanda Landowska (I don't listen to it very often, as it freaks me out :lol, and I am beginning to appreciate Glenn Gould more in these works. I don't have a good harpsichord version. I want to buy the Gustav Leonhardt or maybe Bob van Asperen (has he recorded these more than once?).


----------



## premont

My favorites would be Leonhardt, van Asperen, Gilbert, Moroney, Belder, Verlet, Rübsam, Weiss and Chorzempa.

Ampng these Belder is the only one to have recorded the work twice.

I have no particular favorites on piano (I do not favor piano in this repertoire much) but a safe choice IMO is Hans Georg Schäfer:

https://www.amazon.de/Wohltemperier...Schäfer&qid=1558698075&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr

https://www.amazon.de/Wohltemperier...Schäfer&qid=1558698112&s=music&sr=1-3-catcorr


----------



## hoodjem

flamencosketches said:


> ^I think with his next post, he clarified that he doesn't have a Perahia WTC, and that it may not exist, he was conflating it with the Goldberg Variations.
> 
> On topic: my favorites are Sviatoslav Richter (miles beyond the competition for me...), András Schiff (his first set on Decca), Wanda Landowska (I don't listen to it very often, as it freaks me out :lol, and I am beginning to appreciate Glenn Gould more in these works. I don't have a good harpsichord version. I want to buy the Gustav Leonhardt or maybe Bob van Asperen (has he recorded these more than once?).


Yes. I discovered his admission after my post.

I too like Richter (and Barenboim, Aldwell, and Zhu Xiao-Mei.)
I do not like Gould, as I find he plays too fast, and does not allow the music to breathe. (Although I do appreciate his second, slower version of the Goldbergs, but not his first.)

I really enjoy Perahia's Bach, and very much wish he would record the WTC.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> My favorites would be Leonhardt, van Asperen, Gilbert, Moroney, Belder, Verlet, Rübsam, Weiss and Chorzempa.
> 
> Ampng these Belder is the only one to have recorded the work twice.
> 
> I have no particular favorites on piano (I do not favor piano in this repertoire much) but a safe choice IMO is Hans Georg Schäfer:
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/Wohltemperier...Schäfer&qid=1558698075&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/Wohltemperier...Schäfer&qid=1558698112&s=music&sr=1-3-catcorr


Seeing that made me wonder if you know Chorzempa's Bach organ recordings, I've started to listen to his Leipzig chorales and I think it has some of the properties which make the WTC so distinctive and somehow, so satisfying and rewarding over time.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Seeing that made me wonder if you know Chorzempa's Bach organ recordings, I've started to listen to his Leipzig chorales and I think it has some of the properties which make the WTC so distinctive and somehow, so satisfying and rewarding over time.


Yes, I know some of them. Got them already in the vinyl days. The trio sonatas, the Dorian, Sei gegrüsset variations, Schübler chorales and a few others. Just yesterday i saw that Presto offers download of the Leipzig Chorales, Trio sonatas and Orgelbüchlein, and they will be included in my next download.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Yes, I know some of them. Got them already in the vinyl days. The trio sonatas, the Dorian, Sei gegrüsset variations, Schübler chorales and a few others. Just yesterday i saw that Presto offers download of the Leipzig Chorales, Trio sonatas and Orgelbüchlein, and they will be included in my next download.


Yes, I think you will find them stimulating performances. Almost chamber scale in the Leipzig chorales, I haven't heard the orgelbuchlein or the sonatas yet.


----------



## staxomega

It's only within the last year that I've really started to enjoy more "pianistic" interpretations like Feinberg, before this I was fairly adherent to HIP style performances ala Schiff or Koroliov. I've recently really been enjoying Jorg Demus... I've never heard someone play WTC with so much pedal and I'm enjoying it!

Does anyone have any suggestions for some modern recordings (in a loose sense, something that has good piano presence, so even older analog tape recordings if it meets that is fine with me, ie Tureck's DG recording wouldn't really fit this, even if it is a fine interpretation) in good sound with these style of interpretations? Thank you.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^Richter ?..................


----------



## staxomega

Itullian said:


> ^^^^Richter ?..................


For sure, I love those RCA/Eurodisc studio recordings!


----------



## flamencosketches

My number one is Sviatoslav Richter, followed by András Schiff. 

Any fans of Walter Gieseking in these works? I'm tempted to go for the DG Gieseking Bach box as I really like what little I've heard of his. As with any Gieseking, slightly rough sound, but his excellent interpretive touch more than makes up for it.


----------



## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> My number one is Sviatoslav Richter, followed by András Schiff.
> 
> Any fans of Walter Gieseking in these works? I'm tempted to go for the DG Gieseking Bach box as I really like what little I've heard of his. As with any Gieseking, slightly rough sound, but his excellent interpretive touch more than makes up for it.


Amen........................


----------



## wkasimer

staxomega said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions for some modern recordings (in a loose sense, something that has good piano presence, so even older analog tape recordings if it meets that is fine with me, ie Tureck's DG recording wouldn't really fit this, even if it is a fine interpretation) in good sound with these style of interpretations? Thank you.


Tatiana Nikolayeva - if you can find either of her recordings at a reasonable price.


----------



## Mandryka

staxomega said:


> "pianistic" interpretations ... so much pedal . . . modern recordings . . . in good sound with these style of interpretations? Thank you.


Pietro De Maria
Michael Levinas
Emil Naoumoff

Maybe try also

Andrei Vieru
Valery Afanassiev
Roger Woodward


----------



## staxomega

wkasimer said:


> Tatiana Nikolayeva - if you can find either of her recordings at a reasonable price.


I have heard a good amount of Nikolayeva; two of her recordings of Shostakovich's Op. 87 Preludes and Fugues, Hyperion recording of the Goldbergs and the live BBC, and the second Art of Fugue and Hyperion IMHO I have just not found her to be a great pianist. I will sample these to see if it changes my mind.



Mandryka said:


> Pietro De Maria
> Michael Levinas
> Emil Naoumoff
> 
> Maybe try also
> 
> Andrei Vieru
> Valery Afanassiev
> Roger Woodward


Thank you, I have Daniel Ben-Pienaar's in my listening queue, after that I will go down your list.


----------



## Bulldog

staxomega said:


> I have heard a good amount of Nikolayeva; two of her recordings of Shostakovich's Op. 87 Preludes and Fugues, Hyperion recording of the Goldbergs and the live BBC, and the second Art of Fugue and Hyperion IMHO I have just not found her to be a great pianist.


It is those recordings above that convinced me she is a great pianist. However, I can't say I am particularly enthralled with her WTC.


----------



## Guest

I've seen the Richter set but always assumed he would turn it into a romantic soup. Am I wrong?


----------



## Bulldog

Baron Scarpia said:


> I've seen the Richter set but always assumed he would turn it into a romantic soup. Am I wrong?


Well, it's just a matter of opinion. I don't think Richter turns it into romantic soup, at least not to the degree of Barenboim in his traversal.


----------



## Guest

Bulldog said:


> Well, it's just a matter of opinion. I don't think Richter turns it into romantic soup, at least not to the degree of Barenboim in his traversal.


Hmmm, interesting. (Not that romantic soup is always bad.)


----------



## Bulldog

My favorite versions of the WTC on piano include Woodward, Fellner, Vieru, Crossland, Tureck, Sheppard, Gould, Koroliov, and Gulda.


----------



## Guest

Bulldog said:


> My favorite versions of the WTC on piano include Woodward, Fellner, Vieru, Crossland, Tureck, Sheppard, Gould, Koroliov, and Gulda.


I've got six of those. 

(You don't say which Tureck, but I've got both.)

Not Schiff? I like Schiff (Decca) a lot.


----------



## staxomega

I am quite impressed by what I am hearing from Afanasiev on Youtube, it went into autoplaying some Chopin and the Op. 67/4 Mazurka really reminded me of the great Andrzej Wasowski. Impressive, I am eager to hear more of his WTC.


----------



## Bulldog

Baron Scarpia said:


> I've got six of those.
> 
> (You don't say which Tureck, but I've got both.)
> 
> Not Schiff? I like Schiff (Decca) a lot.


I also have both Turecks. Concerning Schiff, I place him a little lower than the ones I cited.


----------



## flamencosketches

Yes as for Schiff it's Decca all the way over ECM, as I just realized I didn't mention. 

Describing Richter's WTC as "romantic soup" is criminal misrepresentation of the truth, IMO. It's a masterful achievement.


----------



## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Yes as for Schiff it's Decca all the way over ECM, as I just realized I didn't mention.
> 
> Describing Richter's WTC as "romantic soup" is criminal misrepresentation of the truth, IMO. It's a masterful achievement.


For the record, I didn't describe Richter's WTC as romantic soup, I mentioned that I had that preconception (based on other recordings of Richter that I have heard). You may think that is criminal misrepresentation as well. I'm not a fan of Richter, generally.


----------



## staxomega

Bulldog said:


> I also have both Turecks. Concerning Schiff, I place him a little lower than the ones I cited.


Do you mind saying what the interpretive differences are between Tureck's two cycles? I seem to recall the sound being much better on the live BBC set and the interpretations being fabulous.

Edit: on Afanassiev, I find he is missing a bit of poetry in places, like the BWV882 Prelude.


----------



## flamencosketches

Baron Scarpia said:


> For the record, I didn't describe Richter's WTC as romantic soup, I mentioned that I had that preconception (based on other recordings of Richter that I have heard). You may think that is criminal misrepresentation as well. I'm not a fan of Richter, generally.


I think I was reading too fast and thought you'd said you'd heard a little of it and wrote it off on those grounds. Sorry, you're acquitted of all charges..

In any case. Richter's WTC was what finally turned me around with Richter. I never cared for him either. Still think he's overrated, but he is quite excellent when he's really on.


----------



## Bulldog

staxomega said:


> Do you mind saying what the interpretive differences are between Tureck's two cycles? I seem to recall the sound being much better on the live BBC set and the interpretations being fabulous.


For me, it's a matter of rounded edges (DG) vs. sharpness (BBC). Of course, the muddy DG sound exacerbates the situation. Even so, I prefer Tureck's DG set; I find her interpretations a little more penetrating than on the BBC set.


----------



## KenOC

flamencosketches said:


> Yes as for Schiff it's Decca all the way over ECM, as I just realized I didn't mention.


My opinion is quite different. Schiff's earlier effort is OK but for me kind of unremarkable. His ECM traversal is up there with Gould's (in quality though in a much different style) and is a real standout.


----------



## staxomega

KenOC said:


> My opinion is quite different. Schiff's earlier effort is OK but for me kind of unremarkable. His ECM traversal is up there with Gould's (in quality though in a much different style) and is a real standout.


A while ago I sampled Schiff's recordings of JS Bach's Partitas he recorded for ECM and I was quite impressed, he sounded invigorated and played with such spontaneity. Prior to this my opinion of his Bach was one of indifference.


----------



## Bulldog

KenOC said:


> My opinion is quite different. Schiff's earlier effort is OK but for me kind of unremarkable. His ECM traversal is up there with Gould's (in quality though in a much different style) and is a real standout.


I'm not very familiar with Schiff's WTC on ECM, but his Goldbergs is much better than the earlier Decca account. Actually, it's one of my favorite piano versions (quite exhilarating).


----------



## staxomega

Bulldog said:


> For me, it's a matter of rounded edges (DG) vs. sharpness (BBC). Of course, the muddy DG sound exacerbates the situation. Even so, I prefer Tureck's DG set; I find her interpretations a little more penetrating than on the BBC set.


Thank you, I'm not a sound quality snob by any means; I have around 100 or 200 CDs of 78 transfers from Marston, Naxos, Pearl, etc and do not mind the sound at all as long as the piano tone is unfiltered. But Tureck's DG set is too "dead" sounding for me.


----------



## Bulldog

staxomega said:


> But Tureck's DG set is too "dead" sounding for me.


I find that transcendental performances easily overcome bad sound - that's how I feel about Tureck/DG.


----------



## flamencosketches

Bulldog said:


> I'm not very familiar with Schiff's WTC on ECM, but his Goldbergs is much better than the earlier Decca account. Actually, it's one of my favorite piano versions (quite exhilarating).


I haven't heard his Decca Goldberg but the ECM one is indeed amazing. I haven't heard all of the ECM WTC so perhaps I should before I make a definitive judgment, but I found it uninteresting when I last heard it. Hearing the Decca WTC later on was very surprising in that I ended up really loving it.


----------



## Mandryka

staxomega said:


> Do you mind saying what the interpretive differences are between Tureck's two cycles? I seem to recall the sound being much better on the live BBC set and the interpretations being fabulous.
> 
> Edit: on Afanassiev, I find he is missing a bit of poetry in places, like the BWV882 Prelude.


I feel the same way as Bulldog about Tureck, that the DG WTC has a certain magic which isn't there in the BBC. Generally I find her earlier recordings more inspiring.

Re Afanassiev, you're not going to find one which equally is successful everywhere, not on piano at least.

I just listened to Afanassiev play 882. Quite frankly I though the music really suffers because of the temperament of the instrument - the harmonies are just too white note to be interesting. Hans Georg Schaefer, who I would have recommended but I thought that you may not find his recording makes enough use of piano specific effects, uses a different tuning, and maybe Pietro de Maria too, I can't remember (I don't like what he does at all!)

For a very pianistic approach to the 882 prelude, try Levinas. It's not my cup of tea at all!


----------



## premont

Hans Georg Schäfer easily available at Amazon.de (heartily recommended):

https://www.amazon.de/s?k=hans+georg+schäfer&i=popular&__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&ref=nb_sb_noss


----------



## Mandryka

Who is/was Hans Georg Schaefer? The WTC shows him to be a fine musician.


----------



## premont

He is an important musician, even the Bach Cantatas website has a biography:

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Schafer-Hans-Georg.htm


----------



## howlingfantods

It'll never happen but if Sokolov ever recorded the full WTK, as with most of his Bach, his would almost certainly be my favorite. Here's a couple of collections of various individual preludes/fugues he's performed over the years--around 1/3 of book 1 and 2/3 of book 2:


----------



## staxomega

Mandryka said:


> I feel the same way as Bulldog about Tureck, that the DG WTC has a certain magic which isn't there in the BBC. Generally I find her earlier recordings more inspiring.
> 
> Re Afanassiev, you're not going to find one which equally is successful everywhere, not on piano at least.
> 
> I just listened to Afanassiev play 882. Quite frankly I though the music really suffers because of the temperament of the instrument - the harmonies are just too white note to be interesting. Hans Georg Schaefer, who I would have recommended but I thought that you may not find his recording makes enough use of piano specific effects, uses a different tuning, and maybe Pietro de Maria too, I can't remember (I don't like what he does at all!)
> 
> For a very pianistic approach to the 882 prelude, try Levinas. It's not my cup of tea at all!


Thanks, I have my work cut out for new recordings to try. I'll revisit Afanassiev regarding the temperament.

On Tureck's two cycles after refreshing my memory on the BBC I am in complete agreement with you two; the BBC is harder edged and I prefer the interpretations on the DG. I did like that she used a bit more tasteful ornamentation in places in the BBC, but that was about it.


----------



## DarkAngel

*New option with this boxset (harpsicord).......*
Has complete WTC I & II and two versions of Goldberg (studio and live) also complete partitas.....

Still making first listen to boxset, but these are 1st class performances that will rank highly overall
The Ross WTC was very hard/expensive to find before and worth the budget price of entire boxset alone


----------



## Bulldog

DarkAngel said:


> *New option with this boxset (harpsicord).......*
> Has complete WTC I & II and two versions of Goldberg (studio and live) also complete partitas.....
> 
> Still making first listen to boxset, but these are 1st class performances that will rank highly overall
> The Ross WTC was very hard to find before and worth the budget price of entire boxset alone


Great acquisition!! Ross is one of the all-time best harpsichordists, be it Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, or any other composer he played.


----------



## KenOC

Amazon is confused.


----------



## Mandryka

I’m not as enthusiastic about Scott Ross as Bulldog, but I am by nature a positive fellow, so I’ll say that I quite enjoyed his Partitas, his Italian Concerto and his Chromatic Fanatasy, which seem to me to have a sort of fresh, straightforward expressiveness. The Bach Partitas are I think the best thing he did, maybe apart from one of the D’Anglebert suits and some of the Rameau he recorded. 

I should say that as far as I remember I haven’t heard the live Goldbergs. It may be their first release in the big new box.

It’s nice to hear the paritas played on what is, I think, a French harpsichord.


----------



## Mandryka

I wonder what you guys will make of this on soundcloud, I think it's rather good


__
https://soundcloud.com/user-843628186%2Fsets

I don't know who John Lewis Grant is.

The rubato seems natural, he uses piano effects but it's not a problem, he's clearly given a lot of thought to voicing and to touch, the phrasing in the preludes seems to me to bring out their structure. The piano is equally tuned or close, but it's rather beautiful. This guy knows what he's doing IMO.


----------



## staxomega

Bulldog said:


> My favorite versions of the WTC on piano include Woodward, Fellner, Vieru, Crossland, Tureck, Sheppard, Gould, Koroliov, and Gulda.


I've been making my way through your list, from the ones that are new to me both books Andrei Vieru recorded are absolutely phenomenal. I haven't been this taken by pianist playing WTC since discovering Samuil Feinberg.


----------



## Luchesi

If you want a very fast interpretation she is amazing!


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I posted this on another thread and both of these have been mentioned previously but not the fact that they are free. So here you are.

Two Bach Well Tempered Clavier offerings absolutely free from Archive.org. I have listened to quite a lot or all of both. Totally different ways of playing. Switching back and forth between them is fun. The Loesser recording is from around 1964 and it is a tad less in sound quality. Demus sounds great on his recordings, the piano is beautiful. The interpretations are for you to decide. I like them both and see no need to purchase a WTC in the future.

View attachment 122281


View attachment 122282


https://archive.org/details/ppyjc61_yahoo_889

https://archive.org/details/04BWV849

https://archive.org/details/J.S.BACHTheWell-TemperedClavier-BOOKI-Loesser

https://archive.org/details/J.S.BACHTheWell-TemperedClavier-BOOKII-Loesser

__________________

Archive.org or the Internet Archive is totally free and legal downloads of music, books, you name it all in the public domain. No ads or scams or viruses.


----------



## staxomega

Thoughts on Michael Levinas? I've managed to listen to it once and am perfectly luke warm on it- biggest complaints being his over pedaling and tempi that can occasionally border on putting you to sleep. But then he'll turn on a dime and play a piece with crystal clear articulation and attention to the voices. Overall IMHO a cycle that was too up and down for me.


----------



## starthrower

Luchesi said:


> If you want a very fast interpretation she is amazing!


She's gorgeous to look at but that opening prelude was horrible. Just a wash of notes with no phrasing or articulation. It's slightly better after that but she seems to employ a rubato style that makes the music hard to follow. Not my cuppa.


----------



## starthrower

I've been enjoying Evelyne Crochet. Her complete set is available on the Music & Arts label.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7974680--bach-j-s-the-well-tempered-clavier-books-1-2


----------



## Bulldog

starthrower said:


> I've been enjoying Evelyne Crochet. Her complete set is available on the Music & Arts label.
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7974680--bach-j-s-the-well-tempered-clavier-books-1-2


Yes, I also find her WTC a winner, especially her interpretations in Bk. 2.

That's very generous of you to provide the full set!


----------



## starthrower

Bulldog said:


> Yes, I also find her WTC a winner, especially her interpretations in Bk. 2.
> 
> That's very generous of you to provide the full set!


I don't know if YT is a help or hindrance? But I still buy CDs. I suppose many just listen and don't support music. There's not much that can be done about that. But I plan on picking up this set when it goes on sale.


----------



## Bulldog

starthrower said:


> I don't know if YT is a help or hindrance? But I still buy CDs. I suppose many just listen and don't support music. There's not much that can be done about that. But I plan on picking up this set when it goes on sale.


I bought Crochet's set when it first came out - have had it a number of years.


----------



## starthrower

Bulldog said:


> I bought Crochet's set when it first came out - have had it a number of years.


I was assuming you did. As most folks here buy music.


----------



## DarkAngel

Another great Russian hidden away in the old Melodiya archives that just came to my attention -* Maria Yudina *Bold expressive style that is very refreshing WTC I & II

Tidal streaming has nice collection saving me the cost of her expensive hard to find limited CD sets, 1950s sound is serviceable but not the best (as is most Melodiya material of that era) Quote from Presto UK



> "This is not at all what I wrote, but play it like this. Do play it this way!" exclaimed Dmitri Shostakovich after Yudina performed the freshly written 24 Preludes and Fugues. This exclamation contains the key to understanding of Maria Yudina's performing art





> Whatever she played - her beloved Bach, Mozart, Schubert or "serialist" Webern, or Stravinsky, Beethoven, Debussy or the composers who lived in Leningrad during the siege - everything sounded unexpected, paradoxical, but extremely convincing.












Sound samples:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8668343--maria-yudina-anniversary-edition


----------



## KenOC

DarkAngel said:


> Another great Russian hidden away in the old Melodiya archives that just came to my attention -* Maria Yudina *Bold expressive style that is very refreshing WTC I & II


Maria Yudina was quite famous in the Soviet Union. Shostakovich tells this story about her, having to do with a radio broadcast of Mozart's 23rd Piano Concerto, a favorite of Stalin.


----------



## jegreenwood

KenOC said:


> Maria Yudina was quite famous in the Soviet Union. Shostakovich tells this story about her, having to do with a radio broadcast of Mozart's 23rd Piano Concerto, a favorite of Stalin.


I've mentioned this in another thread, but that story is integrated into the film "The Death of Stalin," a wildly funny comedy from 2018. In a marvelous piece of type-casting, Yudina was played by a Bond girl.


----------



## flamencosketches

jegreenwood said:


> I've mentioned this in another thread, but that story is integrated into the film "The Death of Stalin," a wildly funny comedy from 2018. In a marvelous piece of type-casting, Yudina was played by a Bond girl.


I just watched that film with my girlfriend a few weeks ago, she is a huge Yudina fan. We both loved it. Anyway, her Bach is wonderful, though, granted, extremely bizarre.


----------



## Blancrocher

All of my favorites—Turek, Gulda, Gould, and Richter--have been mentioned. Throwing in the name Abdel Rahman El Bacha in case anyone would like to sample the audiophile-quality sound.


----------



## Josquin13

I recently heard Book 2 played by the late English pianist Julia Cload, and was very impressed. I get the sense that Cload had lived with this music for many years, before putting her thoughts down on record. To my ears, her interpretations are deeply profound and insightful, and remarkably musical. & I liked that her tempi are generally a bit more spacious than certain other pianists, such as Crochet (whom she compliments well, interpretatively). If interested, you can hear her WTC on You Tube:

Book 1:



Book 2: 




Granted, I've yet to hear Cload's Book 1 (or her Goldbergs or Haydn sonatas), but after listening to her Book 2 (twice) I fully expect she's going to become one of my favorite interpreters of Bach's WTC on piano, joining the likes of Samuel Feinberg, Tatiana Nikolayeva, Mieczyslaw Horsowski, Evelyn Crochet, Edward Aldwell, and Valery Afanassiev (to sample these pianists, see the YT links provided on my previous post on this thread). (Although I do still hope that pianist Virginia Black will record this music in the future, & possibly Dubravka Tomsic.)

(On harpsichord, my favorite WTC recordings have come from Leon Berben, Bob van Asperen, Pieter-Jan Belder, Pierre Hantai (Book 1 only), and Peter Watchorn. I've yet to hear Ottavio Dantone's WTC, but have heard glowing reports about his Book 2. In addition, I hope that Pascal Dubreuil will record the WTC at some point in the future, as his brilliant 6 Partitas have grown on me & become my benchmark favorite.)


----------



## Mandryka

I've been listening to this one today. It's very strange, it's dark, sad. Anyway I thought I'd post here to see what others think, you never know with these things, it could be _me_ who's strange, dark and sad, not the music!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I'm always in the mood for listening to the WTC, but I tend to go for different interpretations based off whatever mood I'm fancying- lyrical, introspective, spiritual, breezy, idiomatic, personal, modern, traditional, etc. It's one of the few works where I don't have a clear favorite. I'm always on the lookout for new interpretations, so I really appreciate seeing all the recommendations in this thread! Ones I'm most likely to reach for include Schiff (despite the irritating mannerisms), Tureck, Landowska, Richter, Aimard (he has a version that comes with his own recorded commentary for each pair, which is interesting), Pollini for Book I (straightforward and unfussy), Feinberg (very special playing that all Bachians need to hear at least once), and Crossland (I've really been loving hers lately- it's unabashed modern piano style but really gutsy and refreshing interpretations). I've rarely met one I didn't like, except _definitely_ Gould, who I find just appalling, and _maybe_ Edwin Fischer's, which I just can't see the love for. Gorgeous silky playing, no doubt, but it all just seems rushed and awkwardly stylized.


----------



## 89Koechel

Allegro Con Brio - Very fine recommendations, and I like the negative (although my instincts were against yours) about Edwin Fischer, or even the late Glenn Gould. Wow, it's great that someone even REMEMBERS Wanda Landowska, or Rosalyn Tureck .... and nice recommendations, for Aimard, Feinberg and Crossland. Maybe there could be some mention of Schnabel, also, in his Bachian-types of interpretations. It seems that the WTC .. and maybe the Musical Offering .. are closely-aligned, in their melodic & harmonic developments. Well, of course, we could try to make similar connections, in Bach, to MANY compositions, across various instruments and/or orchestras. Thanks!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

89Koechel said:


> Allegro Con Brio - Very fine recommendations, and I like the negative (although my instincts were against yours) about Edwin Fischer, or even the late Glenn Gould. Wow, it's great that someone even REMEMBERS Wanda Landowska, or Rosalyn Tureck .... and nice recommendations, for Aimard, Feinberg and Crossland. Maybe there could be some mention of Schnabel, also, in his Bachian-types of interpretations. It seems that the WTC .. and maybe the Musical Offering .. are closely-aligned, in their melodic & harmonic developments. Well, of course, we could try to make similar connections, in Bach, to MANY compositions, across various instruments and/or orchestras. Thanks!


Didn't know Schnabel had done any Bach. I will have to check that out, even though I have very similar feelings about him as I do with Fischer (rushed, awkward, nervous). I just don't care for that style of pianism- it's embodied by Rubinstein as well.


----------



## classical yorkist

Just a quick question. Does anyone know of a version performed on the clavichord? Listened to Kunst Der Fugue the other day played on the clavichord and it was, without a doubt, my most enjoyable and rewarding listen.


----------



## Bulldog

classical yorkist said:


> Just a quick question. Does anyone know of a version performed on the clavichord? Listened to Kunst Der Fugue the other day played on the clavichord and it was, without a doubt, my most enjoyable and rewarding listen.


Ralph Kirkpatrick recorded both books on clavichord.


----------



## Josquin13

In addition to Kirkpatrick,

--Colin Tilney plays Book 1 on a clavichord (while his Book 2 is played on a harpsichord):

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Das-Wohltemperirte-Clavier-Well-Tempered/dp/B000002ZM3

--On You Tube: Wim Winter, Book 1: 




--Richard Troeger has also recorded Bach extensively on a clavichord, but I don't think he's done the WTC yet.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Just a quick question. Does anyone know of a version performed on the clavichord?.


Jaroslav Tuma and Ralph Kirkpatrick as Don says. Both worth trying IMO



classical yorkist said:


> Listened to Kunst Der Fugue the other day played on the clavichord and it was, without a doubt, my most enjoyable and rewarding listen.


Who playing? There's a version on clavichord by Stefan Müller and Johann Sonnleitner which is a great favourite of mine.


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> Jaroslav Tuma and Ralph Kirkpatrick as Don says. Both worth trying IMO
> 
> Who playing? There's a version on clavichord by Stefan Müller and Johann Sonnleitner which is a great favourite of mine.


Richard Troeger was the player. I listened on YouTube.


----------



## 89Koechel

Allegro - Hope you'll excuse a late reply. ... Well, Schnabel, in Bach, is available on Amazon, of course. One of the best examples is an MP3 dub of Concerto for 2 Keyboards/BWV 1061, plus the Italian Concerto, the Chromatic Fantasia & Fugue/BWV 903, plus some others. Well, maybe Schnabel might, slightly, seem "rushed/awkward/nervous" to some, but NOT to me, my friend. There's a true penetration into the music, itself ... with enough repose/atmosphere (in the slow movements) to merit some HIGH marks, in interpretations of Bach. Hope you'll investigate Schnabel, some more ... and he's always worth consideration.


----------



## Sad Al

Ralph Kirkpatrick recorded both books on harpsichord too.


----------



## Mandryka

Sad Al said:


> Ralph Kirkpatrick recorded both books on harpsichord too.


What was it, a revival harpsichord?

I'd be quite interested to hear it, because the interpretation on clavcichord is quite prescient, with all it's flexibility and expressiveness . . . this was made at the time when others were playing Bach mechanically.

The clavichord he used sounds bizarre to me. Does anyone know anything about it?


----------



## jegreenwood

Mandryka said:


> What was it, a revival harpsichord?
> 
> I'd be quite interested to hear it, because the interpretation on clavcichord is quite prescient, with all it's flexibility and expressiveness . . . this was made at the time when others were playing Bach mechanically.
> 
> *The clavichord he used sounds bizarre to me.* Does anyone know anything about it?


Agreed, based on listening to a portion on Tidal. I have Tilney, which has a better sounding clavichord. I also like Troeger's clavichord, although he has not done WTC.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> What was it, a revival harpsichord?
> 
> I'd be quite interested to hear it, because the interpretation on clavcichord is quite prescient, with all it's flexibility and expressiveness . . . this was made at the time when others were playing Bach mechanically.
> 
> The clavichord he used sounds bizarre to me. Does anyone know anything about it?


As far as I know, he made some Bach recordings on harpsichord - maybe also the WTC on an US label - some years before the DG recordings. I owned book II on LP (DG) (harpsichord) and the instrument was his usual Neupert revival harpsichord. But I never warmed to it so I culled it long time ago.

Recently I found this:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8440492--bach-the-well-tempered-clavier-book-1

I also find the sound of his clavichords strange particularly in book I, while book II is just listenable.


----------



## Sad Al

I am listening to it while I write this. I digitized it all from vinyl LP:s that I recently found in a local library here in Finland. One look at the surfaces was enough to tell me that no one had ever listened to any of this obsolete stuff since the Beatles played in the Shea Stadium. I am not sure if it's Neupert but it's nice. Neupert was OK wasn't it? If you want I can check out the instrument.


----------



## Mandryka

Ah yes I found the WTC1 on the revival harpsichod, it's always nice to hear Kirkpatrick whatever he's playing!

I wonder whether Neupert made his clavichord, it sounds like a revival clavichord to me.


----------



## DarkAngel

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 130180
> 
> 
> I've been listening to this one today. It's very strange, it's dark, sad. Anyway I thought I'd post here to see what others think, you never know with these things, it could be _me_ who's strange, dark and sad, not the music!


Recently got WTC 1 from this artist, mixed bag for me most of it is very interesting and shows stylish flair and excitement, but a few pieces are slower than I normally like.....as you say perhaps showing an introspective or dark mood

Unfortunately Dina passed away Sept 2019 at young age 46.........


----------



## Mandryka

DarkAngel said:


> Recently got WTC 1 from this artist, mixed bag for me most of it is very interesting and shows stylish flair and excitement, but a few pieces are slower than I normally like.....as you say perhaps showing an introspective or dark mood
> 
> Unfortunately Dina passed away Sept 2019 at young age 46.........


My feeling about her is that her most interesting work, by far, was just before she died, Schubert and WTC2.


----------



## Sad Al

Her dad Anatol is of course a fine pianist, but he hasn't recorded any Bach AFAIK. What's Anatol doing these days?
Has Edward Parmentier's WTC1 been discussed? I have that one in my collection (is it rare nowadays?) and I'm about to check it out once more.


----------



## pianozach

Mandryka said:


> What was it, a revival harpsichord?
> 
> I'd be quite interested to hear it, because the interpretation on clavcichord is quite prescient, with all it's flexibility and expressiveness . . . this was made at the time when others were playing Bach mechanically.
> 
> The clavichord he used sounds bizarre to me. Does anyone know anything about it?





jegreenwood said:


> Agreed, based on listening to a portion on Tidal. I have Tilney, which has a better sounding clavichord. I also like Troeger's clavichord, although he has not done WTC.


It might also be the recording techniques used . . .

. . . or even the mixing, EQ, or mastering.


----------



## wkasimer

I just read a rave review of this on the Fanfare website:









Has anyone heard this?


----------



## NLAdriaan

wkasimer said:


> I just read a rave review of this on the Fanfare website:
> 
> View attachment 137341
> 
> 
> Has anyone heard this?


It's on Spotify. The various parts are grouped together by key, so Book I and Book II are mixed up. It was released in 2015.

If allowed after only a short listening, it sounds quite restless. Not immediately inviting to start listening to the entire thing.


----------



## Helgi

This came out last month and I expected more interest/discussion, haven't seen even a review of it.

Thoughts?


----------



## Itullian

I've been immersed in Bach the last couple of weeks and have a couple of recommendations for you. Take them with however many grains of salt you like.
For The Well Tempered Klavier:

On harpsichord:



















This is a wonderful set with crystal clear sound with a good bottom end to the harpsichord.
Frisch also does a very good Goldbergs as well.

next frame............


----------



## Itullian

^^^Another great set, also on harpsichord, for half the price of the Frisch is the Schornsheim.

Great sound. More flamboyant playing than Frisch.
Wonderful sound.










She also does the Goldbergs and a few other discs which I plan to order.

Both of these sets I recommend.
I will do WTC on piano in bit. 
:tiphat:


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I don't know what to think of the cover pictures but the playing is good.


----------



## Skakner

*Glenn Gould* and *Andras Schiff *(Decca) are my choices.

Gould's insight into Bach's music, is something that one can dislike but can't be unaware of.


----------



## Bulldog

Oldhoosierdude said:


> View attachment 144122
> 
> View attachment 144124
> 
> 
> I don't know what to think of the cover pictures but the playing is good.


Yes, the playing is good and much better than on his Goldberg Variations disc.


----------



## Simplicissimus

I look at this question like a flowchart. In terms of my preferences and final choice, it’s like this:

Piano or harpsichord: harpsichord 
Harpsichord timbre: ringing, bell-like treble and rich, complex bass
Tempo: relatively slow on average
Style: stately, dignified, but not pompous
Ornamentation: minimal

...and that gives you Bob van Asperen’s 1987-1989 recordings.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Bulldog said:


> Yes, the playing is good and much better than on his Goldberg Variations disc.


Agree, I tried that Goldberg's once. Something only a mother could love.


----------



## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> I look at this question like a flowchart. In terms of my preferences and final choice, it's like this:
> 
> Piano or harpsichord: harpsichord
> Harpsichord timbre: ringing, bell-like treble and rich, complex bass
> Tempo: relatively slow on average
> Style: stately, dignified, but not pompous
> Ornamentation: minimal
> 
> ...and that gives you Bob van Asperen's 1987-1989 recordings.


Colin Booth fits your requirements at least as well as Asperen IMO. I would also explore Frederick Haas - the harpsichord he uses has an interesting bass response.


----------



## milk

I think a good contingent of people would not like this. I anticipate that they would call it fussy or inorganic, etc. Anyway, I enjoy Lepauw for his adventurousness. He might be considered extreme in terms of his use of rubato, especially in book 2. I find it compelling and I appreciate this over the usual dynamics we get from pianists. I find that most of the adventurousness in the performance of Bach comes from harpsichordists, but here's an exception. I'm curious if anyone thinks this is comparable to any other piano sets, especially ones done in the last 20 or thirty years. I don't think so.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

From your description it sounds like the recording from Wolfgang Rübsam on Naxos which I once found in a charity shop going for pennies, took a chance on and bought, took home, listened to and returned to the charity shop the next day. The rubato in that was execrably out of place and ruined the music AFAIC, so (while I'm glad for you that you like this version) I think I'll pass.


----------



## milk

Animal the Drummer said:


> From your description it sounds like the recording from Wolfgang Rübsam on Naxos which I once found in a charity shop going for pennies, took a chance on and bought, took home, listened to and returned to the charity shop the next day. The rubato in that was execrably out of place and ruined the music AFAIC, so (while I'm glad for you that you like this version) I think I'll pass.


 Rubsam's lautenwerk stuff is very extreme, even for me - though it works better on his new French Suites IMO. 
Lepauw doesn't take the view that Rubsam does, that Bach should be played in the broken style of some lute music. But he does often use rubato as his means of expression. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone.


----------



## Mandryka

Animal the Drummer said:


> From your description it sounds like the recording from Wolfgang Rübsam on Naxos which I once found in a charity shop going for pennies, took a chance on and bought, took home, listened to and returned to the charity shop the next day. The rubato in that was execrably out of place and ruined the music AFAIC, so (while I'm glad for you that you like this version) I think I'll pass.


I think you must be confused because as far as I know there never were commercially made physical CDs of the Rübsam so it couldn't have been that you found in the charity shop. Maybe you're confusing Rübsam and Landowska.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

You're right about the first bit - thinking about it again I realise it wasn't the Great 48 but the French Suites that were on those CDs. The fundamental point stands though - for me such an excessively romanticised approach to Bach is disfiguringly alien to the music.


----------



## milk

wkasimer said:


> I just read a rave review of this on the Fanfare website:
> 
> View attachment 137341
> 
> 
> Has anyone heard this?


What I heard of this sounded quite promising and inventive.


----------



## Luchesi

rewwtrr
mistake mistake


----------



## milk

Animal the Drummer said:


> You're right about the first bit - thinking about it again I realise it wasn't the Great 48 but the French Suites that were on those CDs. The fundamental point stands though - for me such an excessively romanticised approach to Bach is disfiguringly alien to the music.


I'm getting confused. It's Rubsam's lautenwerk stuff that you say is romanticized? I'm not sure I understand why it should be characterized that way. I guess maybe Feinberg, an old pianist who's heavily influenced by romantic styles (perhaps?), uses a lot of rubato but he doesn't break up the notes like style brise and he plays at lightening speed like most pianists coming out of that time. And, of course, he's prone to dynamics, which is of course impossible on period instruments. Lepauw doesn't seem to use dynamics as much as most pianists, at least I don't think so. I think the most unconsciously romantic pianists, maybe the ones from the mid-20th century, don't play anything like Rubsam.


----------



## premont

milk said:


> I'm getting confused. It's Rubsam's lautenwerk stuff that you say is romanticized? I'm not sure I understand why it should be characterized that way. I guess maybe Feinberg, an old pianist who's heavily influenced by romantic styles (perhaps?), uses a lot of rubato but he doesn't break up the notes like style brise and he plays at lightening speed like most pianists coming out of that time. And, of course, he's prone to dynamics, which is of course impossible on period instruments. Lepauw doesn't seem to use dynamics as much as most pianists, at least I don't think so. I think the most unconsciously romantic pianists, maybe the ones from the mid-20th century, don't play anything like Rubsam.


Completely agreed. There is nothing romanticized about Rübsam's French suites, neither as to his lute-harpsichord recording nor his earlier piano recording. Both are extremely modest in conception and very baroque in the effects (read: affects).


----------



## Animal the Drummer

I respect that view of course, but I profoundly disagree with it. I haven't heard the lute-harpsichord version but on the piano Rübsam pulls the music about way too much for my liking.


----------



## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> I just read a rave review of this on the Fanfare website:
> 
> View attachment 137341
> 
> 
> Has anyone heard this?


Just saw this. It is extremely joyful. Sivelöv recorded the cello sonatas with Zeuthen, and they share the same conception of Bach. Sivelöv's Bach dances without being in the slightest bit rigid in the pulse department.

But there's a BIG BIG problem with the WTC, apart, of course, from its being on a totally inappropriate instrument which has been tuned wrongly. He fiddles around with the order, mixing books.


----------



## Mandryka

Animal the Drummer said:


> I haven't heard the lute-harpsichord version but on the piano Rübsam pulls the music about way too much for my liking.


Ah well that's a different point. Romantic ≠ rubato. It's absolutely appropriate baroque keyboard practice to use rubato. And Rübsam would argue that his way of juxtaposing the voices is equally valid - though I have to say that this aspect of his art is not so prominent in the piano French Suites as far as I recall. Whether the rubato or the counterpoint style which Rübsam uses is something you like is your business.

The conception of baroque keyboard music as being as stiff in its pulse with voices lined up like soldiers is a c20 anachronism.

The intersting place to think about vis-à-vis romanticism in Rübsam is the piano 4th partita - I still haven't heard how he approaches this on harpsichord.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

I didn't say, and I didn't imply, that all rubato is out of place in Baroque music. It's a question of degree. Rübsam takes things too far not only for my liking but also for that of numerous practising musicians of my acquaintance, one or two of whom are Baroque specialists, so the question whether it's simply a matter of personal taste is moot at least.


----------



## Mandryka

Animal the Drummer said:


> Rübsam takes things too far not only for my liking but also for that of numerous practising musicians of my acquaintance, one or two of whom are Baroque specialists, so the question whether it's simply a matter of personal taste is moot at least.


What else could it be other than taste?


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Stylistic authenticity or the lack of it. Not all my contacts dislike what Rübsam does with Bach on the piano to the same extent (one described it to me as "naughty but nice, like one cream cake too many") but even those that don't hate it find it too much of a stretch.


----------



## premont

Where in the French suites does Rübsam cross the border of what you call "stylistic authenticy" (an unfortunate, badly defined and altogether impractical concept IMO) and which I would call historical information, if this is what you think of.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Unlike me the other members of the early music group to which I belong (some of us also sing in a choir) are all music college-trained, one has a diploma in Baroque performance practice from the conservatoire in Amsterdam, some are still working musicians, they don't seem to share your disdain for the concept of stylistic authenticity and like me a number of them thought (albeit to varying degrees) that Rübsam goes too far, not just in the French Suites, when we discussed this some time ago. When it becomes possible for us all to get together again I'll be happy to canvass the subject with them again and bring it back here.


----------



## arteck

Regarding piano version, I think I like Edwin Fischer and Samuel Feinberg best. Also Kempff version is great, if not greater, but what a pity, he did not record it in complete edition.


----------



## Mandryka

Animal the Drummer said:


> Stylistic authenticity or the lack of it. .


You need to explain this and back it up to make it a credible suggestion. It would be great, for example, if you asked your friend who



Animal the Drummer said:


> has a diploma in Baroque performance practice from the conservatoire in Amsterdam.


and reported back.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

I intend to, not least since she's also a piano and organ teacher. Meanwhile, based not least on the views of my colleagues I stand by what I've already said about it being a question of degree. While rubato is not automatically an anachronism in Baroque music, it becomes one when it's taken too far for the music's line and rhythm to survive - in the words of one of them it should be "within the bar and preferably within the beat". It's my view and that of at least some of my colleagues that Rübsam for example crosses that divide.


----------



## milk

Animal the Drummer said:


> I intend to, not least since she's also a piano and organ teacher. Meanwhile, based not least on the views of my colleagues I stand by what I've already said about it being a question of degree. While rubato is not automatically an anachronism in Baroque music, it becomes one when it's taken too far for the music's line and rhythm to survive - in the words of one of them it should be "within the bar and preferably within the beat". It's my view and that of at least some of my colleagues that Rübsam for example crosses that divide.


I also find this a shaky concept - though I have no formal knowledge of the subject at hand. I just haven't seen a clear idea of it. I sense that the way pianists tackle Bach generally reflects the way they learned piano and it often rubs me the wrong way. I admire the daring in Rubsam though the Lautenwerk stuff can be tough. That's the stuff to discuss though; I think his older piano stuff isn't as challenging a topic. But I'm not sure that talk of anachronism is meaningful. All the beloved piano recordings are anachronistic in some way but that's kind of a played out topic, isn't it? What gets me is how conventional most pianists sound in Bach. I was recently watching a young pianist's YouTube channel. She seems like quite a nice and talented young person and she's great at using social media to connect her fans to music. I even like her Scarlatti. But, when she did Bach recently (a rare move), I could get a view of how pianists play; she shows you how she practices. It seemed to me that she's missing so much by not connecting at all with the context of the music. She's only playing within the context of the piano. So, she practices by observing the pulse first and primarily. She practices left and right hand but not really as counterpoint, just how they move together. She adds ornaments in a perfunctory manner. She doesn't engage deeply with the world of the music really and she doesn't search for any insight in it. She just perfects her playing. 
I find this a little shocking how a young talent can just move through repertoire; move through scores, one this week another next. To get back to Rubsam, he's deeply engaged with the music, like him or not. It might well blow the mind of a young pianist and I wonder if they could even manage to approach playing in that way. I have a feeling they'd have to stop what they're doing completely and take a month to study it.


----------



## Luchesi

milk said:


> I also find this a shaky concept - though I have no formal knowledge of the subject at hand. I just haven't seen a clear idea of it. I sense that the way pianists tackle Bach generally reflects the way they learned piano and it often rubs me the wrong way. I admire the daring in Rubsam though the Lautenwerk stuff can be tough. That's the stuff to discuss though; I think his older piano stuff isn't as challenging a topic. But I'm not sure that talk of anachronism is meaningful. All the beloved piano recordings are anachronistic in some way but that's kind of a played out topic, isn't it? What gets me is how conventional most pianists sound in Bach. I was recently watching a young pianist's YouTube channel. She seems like quite a nice and talented young person and she's great at using social media to connect her fans to music. I even like her Scarlatti. But, when she did Bach recently (a rare move), I could get a view of how pianists play; she shows you how she practices. It seemed to me that she's missing so much by not connecting at all with the context of the music. She's only playing within the context of the piano. So, she practices by observing the pulse first and primarily. She practices left and right hand but not really as counterpoint, just how they move together. She adds ornaments in a perfunctory manner. She doesn't engage deeply with the world of the music really and she doesn't search for any insight in it. She just perfects her playing.
> I find this a little shocking how a young talent can just move through repertoire; move through scores, one this week another next. To get back to Rubsam, he's deeply engaged with the music, like him or not. It might well blow the mind of a young pianist and I wonder if they could even manage to approach playing in that way. I have a feeling they'd have to stop what they're doing completely and take a month to study it.


I've long had the question, are we documenting pieces of history? or are we expressing and evoking the metaphors for MODERN listeners (searchers and thinkers)? Both are valid approaches IMO, but very different.

For me, when I play I'm interested in what their metaphors were back then, but I'm more interested in how it all can be received today.

But actually I want both approaches. I want all conservative and eccentric renditions. It's for us to choose, and learn about. Every day is different and our moods are different..

I also have the question, which of the great composers would be offended if we eccentrically twisted their original intentions? In my mind, probably not JsB, but I don't know..
probably LvB and Chopin would be perturbed?


----------



## milk

Luchesi said:


> I've long had the question, are we documenting pieces of history? or are we expressing and evoking the metaphors for MODERN listeners (searchers and thinkers)? Both are valid approaches IMO, but very different.
> 
> For me, when I play I'm interested in what their metaphors were back then, but I'm more interested in how it all can be received today.
> 
> But actually I want both approaches. I want all conservative and eccentric renditions. It's for us to choose, and learn about. Every day is different and our moods are different..
> 
> I also have the question, which of the great composers would be offended if we eccentrically twisted their original intentions? In my mind, probably not JsB, but I don't know..
> probably LvB and Chopin would be perturbed?


In a strange way I think pianists are guilty of what they accuse HIP harpsichordists of and harpsichordists these days are more daring and innovative. Pianists seem to have been documenting the history of piano at specific points. Of course no one knows if the current idea of intention would have made sense to Bach in his context. Pianism of varying sorts could be two things at the same time: anachronistic in terms of baroque intent AND regressive in terms of today's musical potentialities.


----------



## staxomega

milk said:


> I also find this a shaky concept - though I have no formal knowledge of the subject at hand. I just haven't seen a clear idea of it. I sense that the way pianists tackle Bach generally reflects the way they learned piano and it often rubs me the wrong way. I admire the daring in Rubsam though the Lautenwerk stuff can be tough. That's the stuff to discuss though; I think his older piano stuff isn't as challenging a topic. But I'm not sure that talk of anachronism is meaningful. All the beloved piano recordings are anachronistic in some way but that's kind of a played out topic, isn't it? What gets me is how conventional most pianists sound in Bach. I was recently watching a young pianist's YouTube channel. She seems like quite a nice and talented young person and she's great at using social media to connect her fans to music. I even like her Scarlatti. But, when she did Bach recently (a rare move), I could get a view of how pianists play; she shows you how she practices. It seemed to me that she's missing so much by not connecting at all with the context of the music. She's only playing within the context of the piano. So, she practices by observing the pulse first and primarily. She practices left and right hand but not really as counterpoint, just how they move together. She adds ornaments in a perfunctory manner. She doesn't engage deeply with the world of the music really and she doesn't search for any insight in it. She just perfects her playing.
> I find this a little shocking how a young talent can just move through repertoire; move through scores, one this week another next. To get back to Rubsam, he's deeply engaged with the music, like him or not. It might well blow the mind of a young pianist and I wonder if they could even manage to approach playing in that way. I have a feeling they'd have to stop what they're doing completely and take a month to study it.


This might be true of the young pianist you are referring to but I think it's unfair to lump all piano recordings into this category. I've been referring to David Ledbetter's book on WTC quite often as I listen to the WTC and there are many fine pianists that observe many of the things that he writes about. And all one has to do is hear some of their masterclasses on Youtube to see that they've paid great attention to the scores, one such example is hearing Andras Schiff talk about the music.

It might not be as frequent an occurrence to hear some harpsichordist record a bland interpretation but to my ears they do happen, like Trevor Pinnock's DG recording of WTC Book 1.

Here's an excerpt from the C sharp minor prelude that I was paying attention to










There are several pianists that have made this consideration and play it like this.

Again, I think to use a young pianist to lump all pianists together is a rather poor choice. Among the piano repertoire pianists write about decades of learning before they come to realizations of a piece. WTC should be no different. I would actually say _especially_ WTC which is so carefully conceived and intricate that it's not something that you can just hammer out after picking up a score.


----------



## milk

staxomega said:


> This might be true of the young pianist you are referring to but I think it's unfair to lump all piano recordings into this category. I've been referring to David Ledbetter's book on WTC quite often as I listen to the WTC and there are many fine pianists that observe many of the things that he writes about. And all one has to do is hear some of their masterclasses on Youtube to see that they've paid great attention to the scores, one such example is hearing Andras Schiff talk about the music.
> 
> It might not be as frequent an occurrence to hear some harpsichordist record a bland interpretation but to my ears they do happen, like Trevor Pinnock's DG recording of WTC Book 1.
> 
> Here's an excerpt from the C sharp minor prelude that I was paying attention to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are several pianists that have made this consideration and play it like this.
> 
> Again, I think to use a young pianist to lump all pianists together is a rather poor choice. Among the piano repertoire pianists write about decades of learning before they come to realizations of a piece. WTC should be no different. I would actually say _especially_ WTC which is so carefully conceived and intricate that it's not something that you can just hammer out after picking up a score.


 Interesting quote. I take your point about my over-generalization and I agree about Schiff and Pinnock, respectively. I've mentioned before that I like Lapauw. I have to revisit Schiff. I stand by my opinion that the real excitement has been with harpsichordist though and that so many of the piano versions out there seem to omit rubato in favor of pulse and dynamics. I'm even surprised by how some big name pianists can work very sensitively with romantic or modern music and then conceive of Bach so differently. I don't mean to say Bach should be played romantically at all, just that it surprises me that pianists seem to conceive of it with less sensitivity. Maybe it's the influence of Glenn Gould? Some of the older piano masters were very into lightening speed.


----------



## Rmathuln

Purchased Very Good used from Zoverstocks this week.
Ought to interesting.


----------



## Mandryka

Rmathuln said:


> Purchased Very Good used from Zoverstocks this week.
> Ought to interesting.


Did Daniel Chorzempa write an essay for the booklet?


----------



## johnlewisgrant

I've listened to about 60 (piano) versions of WTK 1 and 2, over 50 years. I've played most of them (the WTK on my piano) over that period. I find myself going back to Richter's RCA recording for Book 1 and Feinberg for Book 2. Both accounts are easily found online, but as always CD versions continue to sound better on reasonably good loudspeakers. There are many, many brilliant recordings besides the Richter and the Feinberg. And many of the alternatives are unhindered by the poor quality of the original recording equipment and technology. Schepkin and Roberts come to mind.

My own just-for-fun, no-income-for-me version (which I continually revise) is up at SoundCloud. It is--or should be--completely advertisement free, and it is Chromecast compatible; so you should be able to listen on loudspeakers (that are chromecast-compatible).

The audio quality is very high, even though "dumbed-down" so to speak by Soundcloud's conversion to mp3. I revise my interpretations continuously. Right now, for example, I believe the C major Prelude, Book 1, is my (politically incorrect) Czerny version. You know... that terrible extra measure that Czerny insisted had to be inserted! (I'm pretty sure it was Czerny, and if not Czerny, then Busoni.) Another proviso, I've employed the full extent and power of computer analysis to these recordings. So the outcome, which I think is quite a bit easier to "listen" to than many accounts, is really about product more than process (footnote to the American analytical philosopher of art and aesthetics, Monroe C. Beardsley, who first drew attention to this distinction in the early 50s!!)

Book 1:

__
https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant%2Fsets

Book 2:

__
https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant%2Fsets


----------



## milk

johnlewisgrant said:


> I've listened to about 60 (piano) versions of WTK 1 and 2, over 50 years. I've played most of them (the WTK on my piano) over that period. I find myself going back to Richter's RCA recording for Book 1 and Feinberg for Book 2. Both accounts are easily found online, but as always CD versions continue to sound better on reasonably good loudspeakers. There are many, many brilliant recordings besides the Richter and the Feinberg. And many of the alternatives are unhindered by the poor quality of the original recording equipment and technology. Schepkin and Roberts come to mind.
> 
> My own just-for-fun, no-income-for-me version (which I continually revise) is up at SoundCloud. It is--or should be--completely advertisement free, and it is Chromecast compatible; so you should be able to listen on loudspeakers (that are chromecast-compatible).
> 
> The audio quality is very high, even though "dumbed-down" so to speak by Soundcloud's conversion to mp3. I revise my interpretations continuously. Right now, for example, I believe the C major Prelude, Book 1, is my (politically incorrect) Czerny version. You know... that terrible extra measure that Czerny insisted had to be inserted! (I'm pretty sure it was Czerny, and if not Czerny, then Busoni.) Another proviso, I've employed the full extent and power of computer analysis to these recordings. So the outcome, which I think is quite a bit easier to "listen" to than many accounts, is really about product more than process (footnote to the American analytical philosopher of art and aesthetics, Monroe C. Beardsley, who first drew attention to this distinction in the early 50s!!)
> 
> Book 1:
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant%2Fsets
> 
> Book 2:
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant%2Fsets


I like Feinberg a lot, despite, or maybe because of, the jarring weirdness of that era's concept of applying pianism for Bach. Feinberg manages to create so much magic and it's sometimes even bizarre. Maybe I try Richter again. As I've said here, there are so many creative and exciting versions on harpsichord these days while piano versions seem kind of tame. Who would you say, aside from Feinberg, uses the most rubato and least dynamics - for piano versions? I don't understand why so many piano versions sound so inflexible. Of course Gould is the standard for that and maybe even the reason why people think it should sound like that.


----------



## KenOC

milk said:


> I like Feinberg a lot, despite, or maybe because of, the jarring weirdness of that era's concept of applying pianism for Bach. Feinberg manages to create so much magic and it's sometimes even bizarre. Maybe I try Richter again. As I've said here, there are so many creative and exciting versions on harpsichord these days while piano versions seem kind of tame. Who would you say, aside from Feinberg, uses the most rubato and least dynamics - for piano versions? I don't understand why so many piano versions sound so inflexible. Of course Gould is the standard for that and maybe even the reason why people think it should sound like that.


Glad to see some love for Feinberg here! I enjoy his performances of both books, and especially appreciate that I managed to score both books for ten bucks including shipping (used, of course). Satisfied both my ear and my cheapness! :lol:


----------



## johnlewisgrant

KenOC said:


> Glad to see some love for Feinberg here! I enjoy his performances of both books, and especially appreciate that I managed to score both books for ten bucks including shipping (used, of course). Satisfied both my ear and my cheapness! :lol:


Feinberg's interpretations are utterly and completely wild by modern standards. Apparently his examination at the Moscow Conservatory consisted (inter alia?) of ALL of the preludes and fugues from books 1 and 2, which (unbelievably) he had memorized. Every last one of them. (By way of edit: he was not required to play ALL of them at the exam, but to play, by memory, any prelude/fugue combination the examiners randomly asked to hear.)

I have enormous respect for two names that often come to mind where the WTK is concerned: Schiff and Hewitt. I have both of Schiff's recordings (and both of Hewitt's). Hewitt is Canadian, but has made a name for herself in the UK. I have heard Hewitt play the complete cycle in concert. She typically plays them in groups of 8 preludes and fugues per night, without the score. I have not heard Schiff live, unfortunately.

These pianists have introduced modern audiences to the Well-tempered, and that's laudable. 
But, try as I might, there is scarcely anything in their careful readings that I find even remotely satisfying or interesting. Yes, all the voices are clearly defined, and thoughtful attention is paid to baroque practice (notwithstanding the fact that these are, after all, interpretations at a NON-baroque instrument). I'm not sure why this is the case. Philosophically, there seems to me no good evidence to support the contention that musical judgement is "propositional" in nature, that is, that some interpretations are actually "better" than others, or that some musical forms are somehow "inherently" superior to others. So a matter of taste?

Having said that.... I think Roger Scruton has a point where he argues that REASONS can nonetheless be given for our musical judgements. Ergo: Richter's RCA/Melodiya (as opposed other recordings that Richter made) recording of the C# minor fugue: it is a reverberant recording (Richter did not like recording, and insisted that the lighting be dim and the microphones nowhere near the piano, where he could see them) and the voices cannot be heard distinctly. Not at all, which some listeners might deem catastrophic. But what Richter does seem to grasp--and what sets his reading of all the "big" fugues from Book 1 apart from most other readings on the market--is an uncanny grasp of the _architecture_ or basic structure of these fugues. There is never, not for a moment (for me, at least), any hint the Richter is not sure of where he is headed. It's as if he has completely worked out in his mind exactly how each entry of the subject and its constituent voices and parts will be heard under his fingers. I think the kind of brain-power it takes to play Bach this way may be some kind of "necessary condition" of making Bach "work" for the listener. I say "necessary" because where this almost super-human control and planning is absent, which usually it is--even under the hands of otherwise gifted pianists like Ashkenazy or Pollini--the music just fails apart. You end up with the musical residue, which these days tends to be pristine technique, the ability to execute a nice ornament, to make a pretty phrase, one after another.

Claviers (which I take to refer to most keyboards other than the piano!!) have one huge advantage over the modern grand, the incredible capacity of a properly tuned instrument to _sustain_ absent the piano's sustaining pedal. Butt's WTK recorded by the Scottish high end label "LINN" does a terrific job making, in this instance, the harpsichord sing and sustain. I find many older recordings using various claviers difficult to listen to. Witness Landowska's WTK!!


----------



## milk

johnlewisgrant said:


> Feinberg's interpretations are utterly and completely wild by modern standards. Apparently his examination at the Moscow Conservatory consisted (inter alia?) of ALL of the preludes and fugues from books 1 and 2, which (unbelievably) he had memorized. Every last one of them. (By way of edit: he was not required to play ALL of them at the exam, but to play, by memory, any prelude/fugue combination the examiners randomly asked to hear.)
> 
> I have enormous respect for two names that often come to mind where the WTK is concerned: Schiff and Hewitt. I have both of Schiff's recordings (and both of Hewitt's). Hewitt is Canadian, but has made a name for herself in the UK. I have heard Hewitt play the complete cycle in concert. She typically plays them in groups of 8 preludes and fugues per night, without the score. I have not heard Schiff live, unfortunately.
> 
> These pianists have introduced modern audiences to the Well-tempered, and that's laudable.
> But, try as I might, there is scarcely anything in their careful readings that I find even remotely satisfying or interesting. Yes, all the voices are clearly defined, and thoughtful attention is paid to baroque practice (notwithstanding the fact that these are, after all, interpretations at a NON-baroque instrument). I'm not sure why this is the case. Philosophically, there seems to me no good evidence to support the contention that musical judgement is "propositional" in nature, that is, that some interpretations are actually "better" than others, or that some musical forms are somehow "inherently" superior to others. So a matter of taste?
> 
> Having said that.... I think Roger Scruton has a point where he argues that REASONS can nonetheless be given for our musical judgements. Ergo: Richter's RCA/Melodiya (as opposed other recordings that Richter made) recording of the C# minor fugue: it is a reverberant recording (Richter did not like recording, and insisted that the lighting be dim and the microphones nowhere near the piano, where he could see them) and the voices cannot be heard distinctly. Not at all, which some listeners might deem catastrophic. But what Richter does seem to grasp--and what sets his reading of all the "big" fugues from Book 1 apart from most other readings on the market--is an uncanny grasp of the _architecture_ or basic structure of these fugues. There is never, not for a moment (for me, at least), any hint the Richter is not sure of where he is headed. It's as if he has completely worked out in his mind exactly how each entry of the subject and its constituent voices and parts will be heard under his fingers. I think the kind of brain-power it takes to play Bach this way may be some kind of "necessary condition" of making Bach "work" for the listener. I say "necessary" because where this almost super-human control and planning is absent, which usually it is--even under the hands of otherwise gifted pianists like Ashkenazy or Pollini--the music just fails apart. You end up with the musical residue, which these days tends to be pristine technique, the ability to execute a nice ornament, to make a pretty phrase, one after another.
> 
> Claviers (which I take to refer to most keyboards other than the piano!!) have one huge advantage over the modern grand, the incredible capacity of a properly tuned instrument to _sustain_ absent the piano's sustaining pedal. Butt's WTK recorded by the Scottish high end label "LINN" does a terrific job making, in this instance, the harpsichord sing and sustain. I find many older recordings using various claviers difficult to listen to. Witness Landowska's WTK!!


Landowska IS O-L-D! There are lots of great harpsichord recordings now and they're recorded on beautiful-sounding instruments. There is so much variety in the performances of harpsichordists and lot of willingness to take the music in different directions. Butt is an example of that although I didn't warm to his recording. I would mention Kenneth Weiss, Masaaki Suzuki, Celine Frisch, and one shouldn't be without Gustav Leonhardt. Michael Kierner and Steven Devine are newish ones that are probably worth a listen. Dantone and Egarr and definitely worth a listen. Genzoh Takehisa plays bk 1 on a pedal harpsichord and bk 2 on a fortepiano. Not many contemporaries can match him for daring.

your description of Richter reminds me of seeing Demus live. I've probably gone on about this before but I was fortunate to see him in a very small room (and to meet him afterward). I don't believe he had a score, although I could be remembering it wrong. He played a few sets of prelude/fugues, then he would walk to the back of the room and sit there for about a minute thinking, then he walked back to the piano to play a few more sets. I felt he had a construction in mind for the music and he was building these grand designs.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

milk said:


> Landowska IS O-L-D! There are lots of great harpsichord recordings now and they're recorded on beautiful-sounding instruments. There is so much variety in the performances of harpsichordists and lot of willingness to take the music in different directions. Butt is an example of that although I didn't warm to his recording. I would mention Kenneth Weiss, Masaaki Suzuki, Celine Frisch, and one shouldn't be without Gustav Leonhardt. Michael Kierner and Steven Devine are newish ones that are probably worth a listen. Dantone and Egarr and definitely worth a listen. Genzoh Takehisa plays bk 1 on a pedal harpsichord and bk 2 on a fortepiano. Not many contemporaries can match him for daring.
> 
> your description of Richter reminds me of seeing Demus live. I've probably gone on about this before but I was fortunate to see him in a very small room (and to meet him afterward). I don't believe he had a score, although I could be remembering it wrong. He played a few sets of prelude/fugues, then he would walk to the back of the room and sit there for about a minute thinking, then he walked back to the piano to play a few more sets. I felt he had a construction in mind for the music and he was building these grand designs.


The early Demus recording (he made two) was a revelation for me. I absolutely fell in love with it. Agree 100% on the clavier recordings. So many excellent ones on the market now. Not just the LINN recording with Butt. Leonhardt, among those you mention, is a favourite of mine.


----------



## milk

johnlewisgrant said:


> The early Demus recording (he made two) was a revelation for me. I absolutely fell in love with it. Agree 100% on the clavier recordings. So many excellent ones on the market now. Not just the LINN recording with Butt. Leonhardt, among those you mention, is a favourite of mine.


There are also some live Demus recordings of WTC from his later years floating around out there. He was a remarkable performer.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

Just listened to Sivelöv for the first time, the c# minor and f# major, Book 1. Lyrical, which I like, but somewhat hasty. Almost damn-the-torpedos approach. Interesting. I think I’ll purchase it!


----------



## DarkAngel

I would love to see reclusive russian Ekaterina Derzhavina record a WTC, her piano Goldberg is really amazing as are her recent set of Haydn keyboard sonatas......

*














*

Also would be nice if Hantai completed recording WTC with a Book II to match his stellar Book I using harpsichord


----------



## johnlewisgrant

Her GV is fabulous. I confess to liking it as much as any of Gould’s. I hope that’s not a mortal sin.


----------



## premont

johnlewisgrant said:


> Her GV is fabulous. I confess to ... *liking it as much as any of Gould's. I hope that's not a mortal sin.*


A mortal sin to like any of Goulds? Let me now see.


----------



## milk

Mandryka said:


> Who is/was Hans Georg Schaefer? The WTC shows him to be a fine musician.


 There's so little rhythmic flexibility on this recording that I find it hard to listen to for too long. It's very dry. I admire his abrogation of dynamics and pedal work here but I don't see him employing much rubato. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd like a little more imagination in that regard. It's a pity. I'm certainly in the market for something like this.


----------



## premont

milk said:


> There's so little rhythmic flexibility on this recording that I find it hard to listen to for too long. It's very dry. I admire his abrogation of dynamics and pedal work here but I don't see him employing much rubato. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd like a little more imagination in that regard. It's a pity. I'm certainly in the market for something like this.


It's not that I'm much into Bach on piano, but I think Schäfer's interpretation is the closest one gets to a piano recording in the Dutch no-nonsense way so common among harpsichordists. Schäfer also uses some - if not published - unequal tuning, making the instrument sound more agreeable.

Another option may be Ivo Janssen (he is actually Dutch), who fiddles a bit more with dynamics and rubato but IMO in a relatively tasteful way.


----------



## milk

premont said:


> It's not that I'm much into Bach on piano, but I think Schäfer's interpretation is the closest one gets to a piano recording in the Dutch no-nonsense way so common among harpsichordists. Schäfer also uses some - if not published - unequal tuning, making the instrument sound more agreeable.
> 
> Another option may be Ivo Janssen (he is actually Dutch), who fiddles a bit more with dynamics and rubato but IMO in a relatively tasteful way.


I've the problem of a bad memory and changing tastes so I have to re-listen to someone like Janssen to see how I feel these days. Thanks. Let me go back to it. I'm digging though this thread and listening to some I may have missed or not listened to carefully before. People mention Richter a lot but, to me, he seems typical of an old fashioned way of doing things. But maybe there's a core that I need to find in it. 
One I'm listening to now that I'm finding pretty impressive is Afanassiev. He's got me hooked right at this moment. He's very sensitive in his articulation and rubato. At least that's what my sampling so far has led me to. 
I also sampled Aldwell today and think there might be something there as well, but I'm not sure yet.
Back to harpsichord, how do people feel about Beausejoir?


----------



## premont

milk said:


> Back to harpsichord, how do people feel about Beausejoir?


I only know book I. Find it stiff and earthbound.


----------



## Bulldog

premont said:


> I only know book I. Find it stiff and earthbound.


I'm of the same mind. Beausejour's Bk 2 is an improvement, but there's nothing here to get excited about.


----------



## DarkAngel

Ordered a couple more WTC I to try out, one just released Devine using harpsichord and one mentioned by Bulldog - Vieru using piano, will report more in near future.......any comments before then?


----------



## milk

Lepauw is consistently imaginative in his WTC. Afanassiev is surprisingly good and I have a more positive impression the more I listen to his WTC. Aldwell seems to use some ugly dynamics at times. 
I'm struggling to find the strengths of Richter and understand why so many people like him.


----------



## bluto32

I recall someone describing Richter's famous RCA studio recording as "spiritual", and that sums it up well to me. The sound is a little distant with some reverberation as though he were playing in a church; perhaps this is one of the factors contributing to the spirituality. I find his playing soothing in some preludes, violent in others (the contrast between preludes 1 and 2 in WTC Book I is enormous), but always hypnotic and deeply atmospheric.

It's the only Richter I have at present; I tend to prefer a cleaner digital sound for solo piano recordings.


----------



## joen_cph

I'd go with primarily Richter and Feinberg.


----------



## Bulldog

milk said:


> Aldwell seems to use some ugly dynamics at times.




I've had the two Aldwelll sets since they were first released, and I never heard anything ugly in the interpretation or execution.


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> I'd go with primarily Richter and Feinberg.





joen_cph said:


> I'd go with primarily Richter and Feinberg.


When Richter was 11 he again returned to some piano after being back with his German father (typhus was going around, both his parents got it, if I remember correctly). Anyway, he was moved among family members. His father was a somewhat famous pianist. So his father was annoyed that Richter never played scales. His mother defended him saying to his father, "But he doesn't want to play scales (implying that he wanted to play MUSIC)". She prevailed and then sometime later the 11 year old he announced didn't want to practice any exercises! He began playing around with Chopin pieces. He never did play the standard exercises. 
So, students can point to this and conclude that exercises stifle some creativity in their personal approach to playing. The problem is, would they want to go through the intense life experiences Richter went through, seemingly year after year, AND his memory hell as he described it?


----------



## milk

The live Demus recordings I’ve heard are the best piano performances but they’re not official releases as far as I know. When I saw him play in Japan, they were selling what they’d recorded for an exorbitant price and I passed. I got live ones from someone but I don’t know where the performances were. How different are his much earlier official releases to these more recent live ones? I don’t know. 
Leonhardt is near the top of any list but there are many great recordings on harpsichord. Piano is a desert but I agree that Feinberg is an extraordinary artist. I’m repeating myself but Lepauw recorded a set that I don’t think should be missed. 
It seems to me that piano recordings suffer from some common problems: lack of rhythmic flexibility and sensitivity a la Gould and others; playing the preludes at lightening speeds like some of the older generation, too much use of dynamics to make a point...
But I think maybe I’m missing something and need to go back to some of the pianists with a more open mind. It occurs to me, though, that the piano is perhaps just not the best instrument for these works. Maybe the voices don’t come through as well on the hammers.


----------



## milk

Bulldog said:


> I've had the two Aldwelll sets since they were first released, and I never heard anything ugly in the interpretation or execution.


maybe I'm being a bit unfair. I'm not quite the perspicacious listener as you and some others here whom I take to be good sources to follow. However, I do find that Aldwell uses dynamics to separate voices and create drama. It seems somewhat rote for pianists. And occasionally he does that thing at the end where he gets louder to express weight and signal the end. That's where he often slows down in the way many do. This combination can be wearying. It's not everywhere and he does have some nice moments in his fugues but I don't see him really standing out as something super special. That's just me though.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Holden4th said:


> My initial foray into the WTC was playing many of them myself. When I decided to get a CD version I started cheap via Naxos and got Jando. It still compares quite well to other recordings I have owned. At one stage Schiff (earlier version) was al the rage so I got it and was left cold.
> 
> There are two sets I always come back to, both Russian. Richter' RCA recording always makes me feel that this is emotional music. Feinberg does so as well. I don't feel that I will need to buy another set.
> 
> One honourable mention, purely for his approach, is Gulda. He has rethought many of the P&Fs in interesting ways and his almost total lack of sustain pedal creates a unique effect in this music, bringing out all the intermingled voices.


So far this is the only mention Jando and the complete set I have. Don't think I need another.


----------



## milk

Feltsman does a lot right on this recording. I know I'm harping on the same things in this category. Mostly I'm interested in Feltsman's rubato and articulation, which are unique among piano players. Also, he doesn't overtly use dynamics to make his point. I'm surprised at how much better he is in these areas than nearly every other contemporary pianist, except for Lepauw.


----------



## Luchesi

Performers push and push to get something fluid and expansive and even unearthly out of this Book 1. As a pianist I'm very grateful for the views.


----------



## Bulldog

Luchesi said:


> Performers push and push to get something fluid and expansive and even unearthly out of this Book 1. As a pianist I'm very grateful for the views.


I first heard her WTC a few years ago; she certainly is different from the pack.


----------



## milk

Luchesi said:


> Performers push and push to get something fluid and expansive and even unearthly out of this Book 1. As a pianist I'm very grateful for the views.


 she's definitely pushing something. I can't really figure out why though.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

Polednice said:


> I gather Murray Perahia recorded one of the best-reviewed piano versions.


Not sure, but I don't think he's recorded them! (I happily stand to be corrected!!)


----------



## Bulldog

johnlewisgrant said:


> Not sure, but I don't think he's recorded them! (I happily stand to be corrected!!)


You are correct. If and when Perahia does record the WTC, my expectations will not be high.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

*Schepkin, Pienaar, et al.*



joen_cph said:


> I'd go with primarily Richter and Feinberg.


Interesting how the Russian approach to the WTC has changed since these landmark interpretations (which I still absolutely love). The "modern" Russian approach is surprisingly clinical, but not Gould-like. One exponent of this approach not yet mentioned is Schepkin. I like his interpretations a lot. The voices are very, very distinct. Also, very nicely recorded.

Let's not forget Daniel-Ben Pienaar (South Africa, now teaching in Germany, I think): technically very precise. Some might find the readings a bit quick, but I like them.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

Bulldog said:


> You are correct. If and when Perahia does record the WTC, my expectations will not be high.


My sentiments, as well. I hope I'm not excommunicated for saying that.


----------



## johnlewisgrant

milk said:


> she's definitely pushing something. I can't really figure out why though.


HJ Lim? Bizarre stuff. Nothing against speed, but the playing is incredibly sloppy. Plus, the damper pedal to the metal: just turns it into a .... what's the right word... nightmare?

Bach meets schmaltz.


----------



## bluto32

Bulldog said:


> You are correct. If and when Perahia does record the WTC, my expectations will not be high.





johnlewisgrant said:


> My sentiments, as well. I hope I'm not excommunicated for saying that.


I have Perahia's Goldberg Variations which are wonderful (and generally highly regarded from what I have read online). If he were to record the WTC, I would be surprised if I didn't find it to be at least "very good".


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

bluto32 said:


> I have Perahia's Goldberg Variations which are wonderful (and generally highly regarded from what I have read online). If he were to record the WTC, I would be surprised if I didn't find it to be at least "very good".


Too bad he didn't see it fit to trim his fingernails before recording it; the sound of the nails clicking on the keys drives me off the wall. The interpretation is very good but a bit "safe" and homogeneous, as is all Perahia. I love his recording of the partitas though.

Due to not really being able to abide the sound of the solo harpsichord for more than a couple minutes, notwithstanding historical considerations, it's all piano for me. I agree with the sentiment that Gould's influence has led many to play Bach in a mechanical, plonky fashion. I can see why the likes of Richter and Tureck might earn that level of scorn as well, but I find that they are both penetrating and cerebral in the best of ways. Like Klemperer's conducting, the sheer inflexibility and extraordinary focus exerts a hypnotic spell. By pressing forward at the same tempo with no sentimentality, we get to hear so many interesting details. Neither are among my absolute favorites - I'm not sure the poor recording quality of either is totally worth the rewards, but I do return to them often.

But my very favorite WTC in modern recording quality may very well be this one. Great variety of tempi and texture, lucid voicing, creative and vibrant yet tasteful. A true delight.


----------

