# Question about Elisabeth from Tannhäuser



## Telramund (May 20, 2019)

Tannhäuser is one of my favourite operas for a good reason: The interesting subject matter (Tannhäuser torn between lust and noble love) which is beautifully mirrored in the music. Venus is representing the realm of sin and the other female lead, Elisabeth, the realm of purity and adherence to religion. It is only through her and her unconditional love to Tannhäuser that he is able to redeem himself and no longer be cast away from heaven.
But what I don't get is the following: Why does Elisabeth love him? She is purity herself and this man basically left her only to be able to fornicate in the realm of sin for eternity. She risks her reputation and her salvation only to protect him and in the end she dies. Why though?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Telramund said:


> Why does Elisabeth love him?


well... maybe for good looks? for being special? for music skill?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Telramund said:


> Tannhäuser is one of my favourite operas for a good reason: The interesting subject matter (Tannhäuser torn between lust and noble love) which is beautifully mirrored in the music. Venus is representing the realm of sin and the other female lead, Elisabeth, the realm of purity and adherence to religion. It is only through her and her unconditional love to Tannhäuser that he is able to redeem himself and no longer be cast away from heaven.
> But what I don't get is the following: Why does Elisabeth love him? She is purity herself and this man basically left her only to be able to fornicate in the realm of sin for eternity. She risks her reputation and her salvation only to protect him and in the end she dies. Why though?


It is in someways a retelling of the prodigal son. Elizabeth loves Tannhauser unconditionally, that is she loves him no matter what he does. Remember he feels so bad about what he has done that he puts in far more effort in the pilgrimage to Rome than the other pilgrims. Venus isn't the only opposition to Elizabeth (lust vs. noble love), but the Pope is also in contrast to the redemption that she represents due to his condemnation of Tannhauser. The Pope will never forgive Tannhauser his sin, whereas Elizabeth loves him despite it. The fact that Tannhauser can see the error in his ways and truly feels sorry about it is a factor as well.

N.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Tannhäuser is also not just a character, but a symbol. We have the contrasts between Elisabeth and Venus, but we also have Tannhäuser and Wolfram (and the other singers). They are similar extremes: Tannhäuser's passion may lead him to be wild, but Wolfram's chaste love (unwilling to tarnish women via physical contact) leaves him just as unsuitable as a partner. At least to Wagner's (more) modern sensibilities.

Or, getting more into the subtext, Wolfram and the others are courting Elisabeth, but chastely, admiring her from afar, as if she were a pretty star in the heavens (so her transition to being an angel pleading before Mary is a lateral move). They're nice, but they do not excite her. Tannhäuser, however, is something different.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

To the foregoing comments I would add that Tannhauser's situation is the archetypal one of the freethinking artist in conventional society. He feels the puritanical ideal of chaste love, which Wolfram praises and everyone pretends to agree with, to be hypocritical, oppressive and contrary to nature. At the same time he finds sex without love, which is all Venus can offer, ultimately wearisome. Consequently he is satisfied neither with the Wartburg nor the Venusberg. Elisabeth must find him libidinally and perhaps intellectually fascinating, and he is grateful for her love even if it isn't enough for him. His inner turmoil can only be resolved in death, but in dying he is "saved" by the realization that love is what matters most.

Wagner certainly intended Tannhauser as something of a self-portrait.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> To the foregoing comments I would add that Tannhauser's situation is the archetypal one of the freethinking artist in conventional society. He feels the puritanical ideal of chaste love, which Wolfram praises and everyone pretends to agree with, to be hypocritical, oppressive and contrary to nature. At the same time he finds sex without love, which is all Venus can offer, ultimately wearisome. Consequently he is satisfied neither with the Wartburg nor the Venusberg. Elisabeth must find him libidinally and perhaps intellectually fascinating, and he is grateful for her love even if it isn't enough for him. His inner turmoil can only be resolved in death, but in dying he is "saved" by the realization that love is what matters most.
> 
> Wagner certainly intended Tannhauser as something of a self-portrait.


Don't I recall something about Vickers cancelling performances of the the role of Tannhäuser, because he disagreed with its religious stance. As a Christian himself, he believed that Tannhäuser's redemption should not come about through the love of a woman, but through God himself, or something along those lines. I'm not religious, so I don't really get it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Yes, Vickers declined to sing Tannhauser for religious reasons.

Wagner's operatic treatments of religion were certainly unorthodox, and Vickers' religious views seemed to be quite orthodox. What I don't understand is how he didn't find _Parsifal_ blasphemous. After all, in that opera Amfortas and the knights are saved not by God but by the tenor! But, as they say, the Lord works in mysterious ways...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Tannhäuser's redemption should not come about through the love of a woman


and it didn't because Elisabeth merely had prayed the God into forgiving Heinrich; the *power of her prayer* saves the man, as praying members of the Church help to save each other by their prayers for one another; such is the point of church membership.


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## Telramund (May 20, 2019)

mountmccabe said:


> but we also have Tannhäuser and Wolfram (and the other singers). They are similar extremes: Tannhäuser's passion may lead him to be wild, but Wolfram's chaste love (unwilling to tarnish women via physical contact) leaves him just as unsuitable as a partner. At least to Wagner's (more) modern sensibilities.
> 
> Or, getting more into the subtext, Wolfram and the others are courting Elisabeth, but chastely, admiring her from afar, as if she were a pretty star in the heavens (so her transition to being an angel pleading before Mary is a lateral move). They're nice, but they do not excite her. Tannhäuser, however, is something different.


Wow, thanks for that insight. I've never thought about it from that viewpoint, that Tannhäuser is the only one who isn't afraid to "touch" her.


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## Telramund (May 20, 2019)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As a Christian himself, he believed that Tannhäuser's redemption should not come about through the love of a woman, but through God himself, or something along those lines.


Couldn't you argue that Elisabeth is some sort of "heavenly substitute"? As if God is working through her instead of through the pope? I mean Wagner deliberately chose not to showcase the scene in Rome or introduce the pope as a character. Elisabeth is the only one who stood up for Tannhäuser reminding everyone that God grants everyone the possibility to repent for one's sins. She has the role of a moral compass so to say.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, Vickers declined to sing Tannhauser for religious reasons.


Some say that he used this reason to mask the real reason - the tessitura is killer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Some say that he used this reason to mask the real reason - the tessitura is killer.


A reasonable suspicion. I've noted that Parsifal's peculiar take on Christianity didn't deter Vickers. The tessitura is lower and the role shorter.


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