# Dvorak and the Symphonic Poem



## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Did Dvorak betrayed Brahms by going into the oeuvre of Liszt? We know that Brahms despised program music and he was a promoter of abstract music. We also know that Dvorak got famous because Brahms took particular interest in him. What are we to make of Dvorak writing Symphonic Poems from 1896 onwards?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Why the link to liszt?Would Smetana not have been a more logical influence on the decision to venture into symphonic poems?


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## Alexandre F (Feb 8, 2010)

The writer forgets that Dvorak was very much under influence of WAGNER before he ever met Brahms. The pictorial inspiration is therefore old.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Did he sign an agreement with Brahms which obligated him to follow all his musical beliefs in exchange for his help?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well I dont believe either Liszt or Smetana are the true influences. Liszt did not play any sort of role in Dvoraks musical education, nor did he have a large influence. Smetana was only about 17 years Dvorak's senior and did not exactly have the sort of 'forerunner' or 'father' figure.

I think the true answer lies in Richard Wagner. Wagner was huge influence on Dvorak and many of his early works bare this burden heavily and unmistakebly.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Art Rock, Smetana was influenced by Liszt. Smetana actually met Liszt and listened to Liszt's Symphonic poems in 1857. This prompted Smetana to take up a willing pen to start composing in this new genre. As for the link between Smetana and Dvorak, we all know that Dvorak played viola in an orchestra that Smetana was conducting. Hence it all goes back to Liszt. I don't think Dvorak was ignorant of this.
Dvorak was also well aware of the Brahms vs Wagner war, with the Tone Poem and Wagner's Total Artwork being the issue of contention.

Alexandre, then why did Dvorak not write any Symphonic Poems until 1896/1897 period when Brahms was stricken with cancer and about to die? What do you think would have been the result if Dvorak had written his Symphonic Poems in the late 1880's?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Most of Dvoraks symphonic poems are actuallly earlier than Brahms´ death, such as "My Home", (1881), "Song of the Hussites" (1883), "In Nature´s Realm" (1891), "Carnival"1891) and "Othello" (1892), and they often have a folksy, "telling" or narrative programme, just like even earlier Dvorak works have a folkloristic or nationalistic theme. But perhaps some writer has been dealing with Dvorak´s (necessary) relations to Brahms as an important figure ?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Just checked: actually there is a google book, cf.
google "dvorak - relation - brahms":
http://books.google.dk/books?id=1Hs...Aw#v=onepage&q=dvorak relation brahms&f=false


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The text is by David Beveridge and concludes that Brahms influence
on Dvorak was at its strongest between 1878 and 1885, and that
the Hungarian Dances and Academic Festival´s student songs can be 
mentioned, but that the influence have been exaggerated by some
writers, and that it was limited to some types of works (p.79). It 
also lists some differences between the two. He likewise suggests
influences from Dvorak to Brahms, in the string quartet in B-flat, 
the Biblical Songs, cello music and the 3rd Symphony. A detailed analysis 
hasn´t been done, though, he says.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

thanks for the info Joen. I'm devouring them right now.
Only one thing. I think Dvorak considered those early symphonic poems to be overtures.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks for an interesting subject. Not an expert of form myself, but found this:
"The three ouvertures which Dvorak (...) wrote in 1891 take the form of 
extended character ouvertures, while in their poetic concept they are akin
to tone poems, and the inner links between them suggest a symphonic 
cycle consisting of a pastorale, scherzo and finale. The original title of the group 
of three works, "Nature, Life and Love", points to mystical-symbolical ideas
such as were to come to the fore soon afterwards in the orchestral music of Fibich
and (...) Suk; the technique of combining leit-motifs, of allowing subsidiary 
themes to proliferate so as to virtually eliminate traditional sonata form,
and of entwining ideas to in most complex ways to lead immediately to
the orchestral language of Ds friend and admirer Janacek. It is only a slight
exaggeration to say that the Ouvertures opp.91 & 93 marked the birth
of modern Czech music", cf. record inner sleeve notes by Karl Schumann
to the DG LP-set of Dvoraks Orchestral Works/Kubelik, 6LP 2720 283.
(The ";" after Suk seems rather to indicate that these traits were present
in Dvoraks works rather than beginning with Fibich´s and Suk´s.)


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Surely the main thing to bear in mind is that this 'betrayal' (if it is one at all) is not something on a personal level - it's artistic. A composer's artistic exploration cannot have boundaries set by anyone other than the composer himself. Perhaps Brahms would have _disagreed_ with the form of Dvorak's symphonic poems, but he certainly wouldn't have thought any lesser of him or held it against him!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Well said.


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