# Arnold Bax



## Habib

I recently heard one of Bax's symphonies on radio (can't remember which one). Could someone who knows his music fairly well tell me which symphony is the best one to buy and listen to? Naxos has the whole lot available and I'm thinking of buying one or two of these, but I don't know which one. Which one/s are the most recommended?

This is also a composer guestbook where people can write down their impressions of this composer generally.


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## JTech82

Arnold Bax is, indeed, a great composer, but he's a very neglected one in my opinion. He combined elements of romanticism with impressionism. He was an English composer who had an affinity with Ireland and lived there for a very long time.

Unfortunately, the bad thing is his symphonies are not widely available, BUT there have been two complete symphony cycles recorded on the Chandos in addition to the one on Naxos. One by Bryden Thomson, who is regarded as one of the finest Bax interpreters, and Vernon Handley, who is also a well known interpreter of his music.

I would avoid the Naxos recordings. They do not capture the spirit of Bax in my opinion. Bax did seven symphonies. I would seek out Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6 first by Bryden Thomson and the London Philharmonic and then if you like them, go ahead and get the other ones.

There have also been about 10 volumes or so of Bax's orchestral works released on Chandos. Those are also essential listening in my opinion.

Good to see another Bax fan on here! Happy listening.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

You should pay attention to his chamber music too, his string quartets are delightful.


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## Sid James

JTech82 said:


> Arnold Bax is, indeed, a great composer, but he's a very neglected one in my opinion. He combined elements of romanticism with impressionism. He was an English composer who had an affinity with Ireland and lived there for a very long time.


I just purchased the RNSO/Lloyd-Jones (Naxos) recording of Bax's Symphony No. 7 and Tintagel. I think it is a good recording, excellent digital sound, very breathy. The tone poem Tintagel is a symphonic impression of the castle of Tintagel on the Cornish coast. As JTech says above, it is very impressionistic, comparable to Debussy's La Mer. The Symphony No. 7, his final symphony, was completed a few months before the outbreak of WWII. It is essentially upbeat and lyrical, but tension is not far below the surface - listen to the quiet ending which is rather ambigious, in my opinion.

An interesting composer whose works seem more free and rhapsodic and at the same time more tightly structured (3 movements, not 4) compared to Vauguan Williams or Walton's symphonies. I recommend the Naxos recordings, especially if you can't afford the Chandos mentioned above. But it's worth checking out this music, no matter which label you try it out on. JTech mentions his Symphony No. 6, which I read somewhere that critics regard it as his finest symphony. I might buy that next.


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## LvB

Habib said:


> I recently heard one of Bax's symphonies on radio (can't remember which one). Could someone who knows his music fairly well tell me which symphony is the best one to buy and listen to? .


I would recommend the fifth; it is, imo, the most tightly organized of the seven, yet loses little in evocative power. _Tintagel_ is absolutely wonderful as well, as noted below; it's coupled with the fourth symphony, itself also highly evocative, on a Chandos recording of the Ulster Orchestra with Bryden Thomson. These would be my top recommendations.


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## JTech82

The amazing thing is now I'm just waiting on a new conductor to champion Bax's music. Bryden Thomson and Vernon Handley have all passed away.

They were the only conductors that, in my opinion, got inside of his music. The Naxos recordings with David Lloyd-Jones are pretty good, but they fail to capture the texture and atmosphere that is so vital to Bax's music.

Bryden Thomson









Vernon Handley


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## Sid James

I agree with you that Handley and Thomson were two of the greatest UK conductors of their generation, but I also think that Lloyd-Jones is a great conductor of the current generation. I have a number of his recordings on Naxos of various British composers, and they are all excellent. Critics have raved about his Bax cycle, for example David Hurwitz of ClassicsToday.com gave it a 10 out of 10. But whichever version one likes, it is good that we have a number of interpretations of Bax's output to choose from, and they are all very fine. I subscribe to the late great Ray Charles' opinion about classical recordings that, in a way, they must all be good, because so much work has gone into them from the artists, engineers and producers point of view. So it's all good.


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## Bach

If you like Bax then there's a good chance you'd also like Dyson.


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## Sid James

I've just bought the Naxos recording of Bax's _Symphony No. 6_, and whatever the reason, I like the _Symphony No. 7_ better. I think it has one of the most amazing openings I've heard in the repertoire. This is somewhat odd, as the _Rough Guide to Classical Music _doesn't even mention the 7th, but says that the 6th is considered to be his masterpiece. It also recommends the Naxos recording. I suppose this proves what JTech has said on the Martinu thread, that one has to sometimes go with one's heart when enjoying music, not get too bogged down in the theories and stuff.

But I'm sure I'll grow to love the 6th eventually. It just doesn't grab me like the 7th does. But I like Bax enough to buy some of his other works later.


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## JTech82

Andre said:


> I've just bought the Naxos recording of Bax's _Symphony No. 6_, and whatever the reason, I like the _Symphony No. 7_ better. I think it has one of the most amazing openings I've heard in the repertoire. This is somewhat odd, as the _Rough Guide to Classical Music _doesn't even mention the 7th, but says that the 6th is considered to be his masterpiece. It also recommends the Naxos recording. I suppose this proves what JTech has said on the Martinu thread, that one has to sometimes go with one's heart when enjoying music, not get too bogged down in the theories and stuff.
> 
> But I'm sure I'll grow to love the 6th eventually. It just doesn't grab me like the 7th does. But I like Bax enough to buy some of his other works later.


It's important to remember music is subjective. What you like someone else might not like and vice versa.

As far as guides to classical music are concerned, I don't believe in them, never have.


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## handlebar

I adore Bax's music and have complete sets from both Handley and Thomsen. The only works I'm missing are a the choral works.
A few years back while in London i stopped by an antiquarian book shoppe and thumbed through the sheet music finding a few piano pieces.
I brought them home and put them away until i had time to start learning them. A year later i took them out and noticed that on the inside of one was the full autograph of Bax in purple ink.
Checking online and with auction houses yielded the same publishers sheet music signed as well! Seems he signed some for students on a visit to one of the universities in the early 20's.
Not a bad deal for £2 was it. I cherish that autograph now and hope to find a Moeran someday.

Favourite Bax works: Violin concerto,Symphonies !1 and 3,the tone poems and piano works.

Jim
Vancouver,Washington USA


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## Elgarian

handlebar said:


> A few years back while in London i stopped by an antiquarian book shoppe and thumbed through the sheet music finding a few piano pieces.
> I brought them home and put them away until i had time to start learning them. A year later i took them out and noticed that on the inside of one was the full autograph of Bax in purple ink.
> Checking online and with auction houses yielded the same publishers sheet music signed as well! Seems he signed some for students on a visit to one of the universities in the early 20's.
> Not a bad deal for £2 was it. I cherish that autograph now


That's a great story - thank you. Not everyone shares this love of things like signatures and so on, but for me it has real significance - a way of personalising a mass-produced object. It's a weird old universe that has brought things to a focus in such a way that you, and Bax, are linked physically through space-time by that signature. I know, I know, call me a sentimentalist if you will; but I know something of the pleasure that signature brings you.


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## handlebar

Elgarian said:


> That's a great story - thank you. Not everyone shares this love of things like signatures and so on, but for me it has real significance - a way of personalising a mass-produced object. It's a weird old universe that has brought things to a focus in such a way that you, and Bax, are linked physically through space-time by that signature. I know, I know, call me a sentimentalist if you will; but I know something of the pleasure that signature brings you.


Well i feel that a sentimentalist has a better view of the world now and from a historical point of view. Some call this sentiment naivete. Balderdash!! I consider it knowledge,awareness and a part of one's duty not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Yes, that signature makes me feel closer in connection to Bax. I know that when a musician or composer comes to my city (Portland,Oregon) i try to meet that one and ask for a photo or autograph. NOT because I want to sell it like so many sports folks do. But to become part of something bigger than myself. Something that I can never be as I'm not a composer and only an amateur musician.

Jim


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## Sid James

handlebar said:


> Favourite Bax works: Violin concerto,Symphonies !1 and 3,the tone poems and piano works.


Handlebar/Jim,

What's the violin concerto like? I'm thinking of getting it on CD. Any impressions/comparisons would be welcome...


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## handlebar

A delightful yet tuneful piece. I would liken it to the Moeran or possibly the Dyson.
It has it's own flavour and does not approximate anything with possible exceptions of a wee bit of Elgar. At least thats what I hear in it. 
I'm listening to the Coleridge-Taylor VC and can hear a little of that turn of the century spice.

Try the Bax VC. You will like it. The Mordkovich recording is good on Chandos as well as the Ida Kersey/Barbirolli CD on Dutton. Both are a delight!



Andre said:


> Handlebar/Jim,
> 
> What's the violin concerto like? I'm thinking of getting it on CD. Any impressions/comparisons would be welcome...


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## EarlyCuyler

The Thompson/LPO recordings are great. As are the Handley/BBCPO recordings. Tintagel is a wonderful piece and should be heard far more often than it is. If you want a work that kind of "out there" check out Bax's Nympholept. Pretty cool stuff.


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## JTech82

EarlyCuyler said:


> The Thompson/LPO recordings are great. As are the Handley/BBCPO recordings. Tintagel is a wonderful piece and should be heard far more often than it is. If you want a work that kind of "out there" check out Bax's Nympholept. Pretty cool stuff.


I've got all of Bax's orchestral works and symphonies. I enjoy them all immensely. He was a very neglected composer. I'm a huge fan of his work.


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## handlebar

I wish Bax had written more piano concertos. Winter Legends is a delight but i LOVE this genre and wish there were more. Maybe the Hyperion edition will add the Bax composition later in it's series.

Jim


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## JTech82

handlebar said:


> I wish Bax had written more piano concertos. Winter Legends is a delight but i LOVE this genre and wish there were more. Maybe the Hyperion edition will add the Bax composition later in it's series.
> 
> Jim


Actually, Winter Legends is readily available to the public. It's on Chandos with Bryden Thomson and the London Philharmonic with Margaret Fingerhut on piano:










As I mentioned above, I own all of these volumes and I'm not sure how much longer Chandos will keep these in print since they're already coming out with rehashes from this particular series.

There's nine volumes and they're all worth their weight in gold.


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## handlebar

JTech82 said:


> Actually, Winter Legends is readily available to the public. It's on Chandos with Bryden Thomson and the London Philharmonic with Margaret Fingerhut on piano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned above, I own all of these volumes and I'm not sure how much longer Chandos will keep these in print since they're already coming out with rehashes from this particular series.
> 
> There's nine volumes and they're all worth their weight in gold.


I do have all of the volumes as well as both symphony sets. Add the Dutton release of Bax premiers and some minor labels and my Bax collection is complete. Unless something new comes out.

The Chandos series impresses me with the artistry and sound quality. No wonder I own half their catalog!

As far as Dutton goes, this release is my favourite:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7111

and this one as well:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7131

Jim


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## JTech82

handlebar said:


> I do have all of the volumes as well as both symphony sets. Add the Dutton release of Bax premiers and some minor labels and my Bax collection is complete. Unless something new comes out.
> 
> The Chandos series impresses me with the artistry and sound quality. No wonder I own half their catalog!


Same here Jim. I own both Thomson and Handley symphony sets and all of these orchestral volumes.

I own a lot of Chandos now. I love this label! I'm just waiting on the next thing to come out.


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## handlebar

I will admit the choral music does not inspire me too much. He didn't seem to have a very good grasp of the choral realm. But then again these tired ears are so used to Haydn,Mozart and Bach choral works that I could be wrong 

Jim


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## EarlyCuyler

I listened to Bax's 5th on my way into the studio this morning. (Thompson/LPO) Being a tuba player, I obviously love this symphony. Plus, its nice to see a tuba player get a Solo credit on a disc jacket! What a hell of a part, played astoundingly by Owen Slade.


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## Sid James

EarlyCuyler said:


> I listened to Bax's 5th on my way into the studio this morning. (Thompson/LPO) Being a tuba player, I obviously love this symphony. Plus, its nice to see a tuba player get a Solo credit on a disc jacket! What a hell of a part, played astoundingly by Owen Slade.


I get the same impression when listening to his _Symphony No. 7_. The opening is the most gripping beginning to any symphony which I have heard. It just grabs you, as much as like the opening to Beethoven's _Eroica_, for example. That work & the _6th_ are the only ones I have heard, except for a number of his tone poems, like the excellent _Tintagel_ (surely one of the best impressions of the sea in music). I would really like to hear his _Violin Concerto_, to find out how he tackled that form.

An interesting thing that I learnt about him was, that getting towards the end of his career, he was living in a room in a pub in rural England (how very English!) and then was called down to London, to become _Master of the King's Musick_, a post which he took up (despite the fact that I don't think he was a great monarchist, he was very sympathetic to the anti-English Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916). I think, early in his life, he must have been somewhat of a humanistic socialist, much like Vaughan Williams. So, to me, it is a bit of a mystery why he took up the post. Maybe he needed the money & didn't mind the prestige that went with it either. I suppose when we get older, we are also less passionate about the ideals which we had in youth, too...


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## JTech82

Andre said:


> I get the same impression when listening to his _Symphony No. 7_. The opening is the most gripping beginning to any symphony which I have heard. It just grabs you.


Wait until you hear the opening of Langgaard's Symphony No. 1. You haven't heard anything yet.


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## Mirror Image

Have you all heard Bax's "In Memoriam, sextet for cor anglais, harp & string quartet"? This has to be one of the most beautiful chamber pieces ever wrote!

As you know I normally don't go for chamber music, unless it's really good, but this recording is just outstanding:


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## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> Have you all heard Bax's "In Memoriam, sextet for cor anglais, harp & string quartet"? This has to be one of the most beautiful chamber pieces ever wrote!
> 
> As you know I normally don't go for chamber music, unless it's really good, but this recording is just outstanding...


I haven't had the opportunity to hear those specific works, but I have heard some chamber works by C20th British composers on the radio, and they have all been outstanding. So I'm not surprised by your assessment of Bax's chamber music. Along with such works by Elgar, Britten, Walton, Bliss, Tippett, Vaughan Williams & others, this music has taken second fiddle to their orchestral output, but we are fortunate that a few labels have been making recordings of this rather neglected repertoire for the last decade or so.


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I haven't had the opportunity to hear those specific works, but I have heard some chamber works by C20th British composers on the radio, and they have all been outstanding. So I'm not surprised by your assessment of Bax's chamber music. Along with such works by Elgar, Britten, Walton, Bliss, Tippett, Vaughan Williams & others, this music has taken second fiddle to their orchestral output, but we are fortunate that a few labels have been making recordings of this rather neglected repertoire for the last decade or so.


I'm starting to open up to chamber work now. I'm really sure what my problem with chamber work was to begin with. I should be more into chamber work anyway considering I'm a jazz guitarist and play with small groups that operate in a very chamber-like fashion.


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## Frasier

I've never been able to stomach the Bryden Thomson conductings of Bax' symphonies except the 4th, for the simple reason they were recorded in All Saints, SW17, a church with about a 2-second echo. The 4th was recorded in Belfast so doesn't suffer the blurred harmony of the others. It doesn't seem a good recording venue for chromatic harmony at all. I have no objection otherwise to Thomson except his attempt at the 3rd Symphony. The last movement is a travesty, gives scant attention to Bax' tempo markings. Lloyd-Jones and Handley get closer to the shades of tempi in the score which, though not absolute in the sense of metronome markings, are clear enough in intent. 

For the 6th I prefer Del Mar with the New Philharmonia on Lyrita. I often listen to the last movement: "Introduction - Scherzo and Trio - Epilogue" separately - sheer magic, like the slow movement of the 3rd.


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## Mirror Image

Frasier said:


> I've never been able to stomach the Bryden Thomson conductings of Bax' symphonies except the 4th, for the simple reason they were recorded in All Saints, SW17, a church with about a 2-second echo. The 4th was recorded in Belfast so doesn't suffer the blurred harmony of the others. It doesn't seem a good recording venue for chromatic harmony at all. I have no objection otherwise to Thomson except his attempt at the 3rd Symphony. The last movement is a travesty, gives scant attention to Bax' tempo markings. Lloyd-Jones and Handley get closer to the shades of tempi in the score which, though not absolute in the sense of metronome markings, are clear enough in intent.
> 
> For the 6th I prefer Del Mar with the New Philharmonia on Lyrita. I often listen to the last movement: "Introduction - Scherzo and Trio - Epilogue" separately - sheer magic, like the slow movement of the 3rd.


I still enjoy Bryden Thomson's contribution to Bax, which was monumental in many respects, because he conducted some works that will probably never be played in a concert hall.

I'm also grateful to Vernon Handley. His contributions are truly remarkable, but am proud of Martyn Brabbins for premiering some Bax compositions as well.


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## JAKE WYB

I think the 2nd the second movemet o the 1st syphony is the most astonishingly dark work in british music - rather makes the niosiness of Vaughan Williams 4th or 6th symphonies seem insncere - shame the gutsty feeling it leaves is dissipated by the circusy last movement. 

Overall 2nd 3rd and 5th symphonies are Baxs most atmospheric and contain some of the most evocative sound worlds of 20th century music

I think however Bax was more dsuccessful in his tone poems - tintagel is truly staggering in the concert hall and gets more involving the nore you listen - unilke Struass and Liszt tone poems with are comparatively on the surface and fade. Bax music never fades - Nypholept has the most rich and glowing orchestration of any of his works and beautifully constructed 

however If theres any recommemdation i have for a bax newcomer is Spring fire - a symphony/tonepoem with the most dazzling range of colours of any Britsh work - a healthy substitute for the planets suite in its range of impressions and top quality writing. The opening evocation of a dripping forest is absolutely magical as brilliantly inspired as any sibelius nature portrait though it soon inhabits a more brighter and shimmering world of activity as the creatures waken and sun rises and the patchwork of colour and excitement sustains till the very end which sweeps you off your feet -

if there is any work which i would love to see live its spring fire - why it isnt a regular in at least british concert halls i find completely bizarre


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## Mirror Image

JAKE WYB said:


> why it isnt a regular in at least british concert halls i find completely bizarre


The reason isn't performed in England has more to do with politics than anything else. I think it's interesting that though Bax was English, he was treated very cruelly by the English. In fact, I believe his girlfriend's house was even bombed. I need to find that article so you can read it. It is completely disgusting the way he was treated.

Anyway, I think there's many people, like you and I, who would love to hear Bax's work played more often, but there seems to be a resurgence in Bax's music in recent years, especially recordings, so who knows what will happen.

I own all the Chandos and Naxos recordings of Bax and I have to say his music has really meant a lot to me.


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## jives11

I agree he was badly neglected, though his girlfriends house was bombed during the WW2 London blitz (I assume you mean the pianist Harriet Cohen).

I love his music. I think the 3rd and 6th symphonies are especially fine , also "The Garden of Fand"


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## JAKE WYB

Ive never quite 'got' the garden of fand or november woods, in comparison with Tintagel, nympholept or spring Fire seems i need to listen to it repeatedly whilst on an evocative northern holiday so that it accrues a memory and absorbs a special atmosphere associted with place as a powerful memory - that has worked magically for pieces of special music in the past - only works for some composers like bax/sibelius etc


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## Art Rock

One of my favourite composers. From my blog:

Sir Arnold Bax (1883-1953) is hardly a household name amonst British composers, unlike say Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Britten. In my humble opinion though he may be the best of them all in the symphonic side of the repertoire: seven symphonies, various concertante works (especially his cello and violin concertos) and most of all, his symphonic poems. All in all he wrote 18 of these tone poems, and the best of them deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as those of Liszt, Strauss, Dvorak, Sibelius and Respighi. Naxos offers an excellent introduction, presenting two of the composer's own favourite works (The garden of Fand, The tale the pine trees knew) as well as two of my favourites (Tintagel, November woods), with a fifth one (The happy forest) thrown in for good measure. Excellent examples of his late romantic style with celtic influences in the themes. I do not have this disc myself, having opted for the earlier Chandos releases, but the customer reviews suggest high quality. Warmly recommended.


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## Earthling

Another lovely Naxos disc-- chamber music by Bax:










I definitely need to check out more of his stuff.


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## Huilunsoittaja

He made a sonata for flute and harp???? I wanna find that, I wanna play it.


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## Sid James

Yes, that Naxos chamber music disc looks interesting. I have an earlier disc with the same group (mobius), playing Villa-Lobos' chamber works, and that is a very fine & enjoyable disc. I might get the Bax one, too, because I might find his chamber music easier to digest than some of his orchestral works, which I find a tad too heavy (apart from _Tintagel_).


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## JAKE WYB

I would suggest the tone poem *Nympholept* for anyone who finds Bax a tad overscored - which is understandable - it is one of the lesserknown Bax tone poems though i dont know why

Regarding the above chamber music cd - I can highly recommend it indeed - especially the *elegiac trio *which with the flutes, harp and viola makes a perfect and magical alternative from the usual heavy stringy piano chamber music we are most familiar with.

Bax needs familiarity I think - to get through the initial edwardian sicklyness - and the slightly childish spontaneity of his musical progressions - but when one understands and grasps it there is no doubt that he is one of the truly great british composers lie Elgar, VW, Holst etc and not a peripheral figure in early 20th century music like one may presume from his neglected state in the concert hall. His symphonic cycle does vye with VW's as the greatest british cycle, and his better tone poems are as worthy as those of Liszt, Struass, Dvorak, Sibelius, etc. and its time they were heard to a regular degree in at least the British concert hall to the degree they deserve - im becoming increasingly impatient to see more Bax live - at least people like Mark Elder seem to be championing him more and more - but not enough


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## Guest

I've just begun to get into Bax and I'm thoroughly impressed. I love the symphonies and the tone poems, and the piano sonatas are really really cool as well. I need to delve into his chamber music now.


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## jives11

I just noticed that the Dutton Labs CD of Barbirollis wartime recording of Bax symphony No 3 is deleted. If you see a copy , snap it up, wonderful performance, recording (allowing for the age) and coupled with the rarely heard Violin concerto. the Dutton packaging and sleeve art is, as always, exceptional too.


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## Sid James

I had a few kind of "new" impressions of Bax's music, copy below of my entry just put on the "current listening" thread -

Some late-night listening last night -

*BAX*
Tintagel - tone poem
Symphony # 7
RNSO / Lloyd-Jones (Naxos)

I'm beginning to appreciate Bax's music more now, after a bit of a struggle initially. Someone compared him to like giving the listener many jewels, one after the other. This kind of makes sense to me now. He's quite intuitive & his ideas come rapidly & not directly connected. Like the start of the symphony starts quietly & questioningly, then a big bold statement, then some British march thing, then something that reminded me of salon or light chamber music. & this is only the first few minutes! A critic of the time said that Bax was feeding off scraps of Impressionism, but this can kind of be turned into a positive in a way. His music comes across to me as not a big hearty meal, but more like a smorgasbord from which you just choose things (or yum-cha). An odd way of seeing it perhaps, but it's helping me come to terms with Bax on his own terms (not comparing him to Debussy, who was completely different, the similarities are only superficial, imo). Bax's orchestral colours come across as a bit like Richard Strauss or Wagner, but I have never put originiality (or lack thereof) of things like orchestration above the more important things, which is basically a composer's unique voice overall. The "big picture" so to speak. For one thing, all of his symphonies have three movements, not the traditional four, and I know at least some - like this one - don't have a key assigned to them. Another thing is that I think his symphonies are just like longer versions of his tone poems, he didn't seem to want to fit everything in a neat "box."

Speaking of these works here, the 7th symphony was inscribed "for the American people" & written in the months leading up to World War Two. Overall, it's not angsty at all, it's quite mixed, but optimism is more the word here. I especially liked the middle slow movement which had some interesting loud/soft contrasts, it was very lush but modern at the same time. A shadowy, night-time world? The final movement was a theme & variations, but it didn't sound straightjacketed to that form at all. The coda is hushed, as if the composer is waving a quietly cheerful "goodbye." This was his last symphony, but he lived until the early 1950's.

As for _Tintagel_, it's very sunny, mirroring the time he spent on the Cornwall coast with his lover, the pianist Harriet Cohen. The "theme" is stated early on & comes back right towards the end, but in between there he doesn't stick to it strictly at all. In a way, there's only the minimum of things to "hang on to" for the listener, but this is quite unique. Maybe that there's no firm "point" IS "the point" of it all. Audiences certainly see it this way, this is Bax's most performed work, it has been since it was written around 1917. This piece images the seaside town, & many UK composers have kind of done this type of thing, theirs is a maritime nation.

I think this performance is very good & the sound is very colourful & detailed. So I'll be returning to it again now that I like it more (I also have Bax's 6th symphony in this series, which I haven't listened to in ages)...


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## Elgarian

Sid James said:


> I'm beginning to appreciate Bax's music more now, after a bit of a struggle initially. Someone compared him to like giving the listener many jewels, one after the other. This kind of makes sense to me now. He's quite intuitive & his ideas come rapidly & not directly connected.


I'm still in the 'bit of a struggle initially' stage (and have been for years and years). What I find so interesting about your post is that it very closely describes my own impressions of Bax, yet you emerge from the experience to see it in a positive light. I've not been able to achieve that switch myself - and it's quite frustrating actually, because I've always suspected that Bax ought to be 'my kind of composer'. Indeed, the first few minutes of _Tintagel_ confirm that he _could_ be my kind of composer: I know the place well - very well in fact - and his intro is a wonderful evocation of the sense of place I experience there. But then ... oh, it all unravels, and I lose my way, and I find myself thinking 'is this the same piece of music, or what?' until the end, and I say 'Oh, if only ...'

Now I know that 'if only' hides the clue. It tells me that I'm listening to the music not for what it _is_, but for what I want it or expect it to be; and I know from all my other dealings with art (of any kind), that_ that _road is a surefire loser. I have to find the way of trying to engage with what it _is_, rather than regretting what it _isn't_. I just haven't found a way of doing that yet.

But I have that handsome green Box of Bax symphonies on my shelf; I've listened to them all once, squirming quite a bit, and shuffling, and getting nowhere. But I still can't help thinking that he ought to be my kind of thing, so I know I'll try again sometime. Thanks for your post. It gives me hope!


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## Sid James

Elgarian said:


> I'm still in the 'bit of a struggle initially' stage (and have been for years and years). What I find so interesting about your post is that it very closely describes my own impressions of Bax, yet you emerge from the experience to see it in a positive light.


Thanks for your reply, some interesting thoughts there. I think another way I'm beginning to hear Bax's music in a more "positive light" is to think of him more like a modern "atonal" composer rather than a kind of post-Romantic or "Impressionist" (I don't like these labels, so that kind of shows this as well). I had the same "journey" with guys like Varese & Schoenberg, probably for similar reasons as Bax. Bax's outlook is probably more like those two imo than say Debussy, Wagner or R. Strauss, even though his orchestration is much similar to theirs. Some things that Bax did which is more similar to "modernists" than the earlier generations of composers, eg. not assigning a key to this symphony, as well as how the structure of his music is more intuitive rather than formulaic (although he does use structures, eg. the theme & variations in the final movement of that 7th symphony, but he's quite flexible with it). He was a transitional figure, of course, looking back & forward at the same time (all the greats did this) but now I'm accepting him as more unique than a kind of half-baked "regurgitator" of earlier styles that I unconsciously judged him to be before.



> I've not been able to achieve that switch myself - and it's quite frustrating actually, because I've always suspected that Bax ought to be 'my kind of composer'. Indeed, the first few minutes of _Tintagel_ confirm that he _could_ be my kind of composer: I know the place well - very well in fact - and his intro is a wonderful evocation of the sense of place I experience there. But then ... oh, it all unravels, and I lose my way, and I find myself thinking 'is this the same piece of music, or what?' until the end, and I say 'Oh, if only ...'


That's true, the beginnings (& also ends) of his works that I've heard does speak to what you say, he's strong on those & maybe a bit more fluid or "rubbery" in-between those two "markers." But I listened to the 7th yet again & i heard that there was repetition of ideas in the first movement, sometimes directly, sometimes fleetingly. I think his music can reward repeated listening if the listener gives it a fair chance of "sinking in."

In saying that Bax should be 'your kind of composer' are you saying that because you like Elgar or (If I know correctly?) Wagner then you should automatically like him? I think I hear more of the latter than the former in Bax's music (at least those two pieces I reviewed above - the 7th & Tintagel). But as I said, I'm coming to think that his "connections" with earlier composers are not as strong as those with his contemporaries or later ones. His more fluid kind of structure & complexity even makes me think of guys like Elliott Carter, though not in a literal way. It's just as much Bax's attitude as his style was different or similar in those ways.



> Now I know that 'if only' hides the clue. *It tells me that I'm listening to the music not for what it is, but for what I want it or expect it to be;* and I know from all my other dealings with art (of any kind), that_ that _road is a surefire loser. I have to find the way of trying to engage with what it _is_, rather than regretting what it _isn't_. I just haven't found a way of doing that yet.


You put it well there, I agree with this. I'm trying to take things on their own terms now more. But I also like hearing connections between different composers. Eg. a commonality I feel between Bax's & Vaughan Williams' orchestration is a kind of Ravellian flavour, esp. in the slower, quieter, subtle parts. There is definitely a kind of European warmth there. & they also use "bombast" to great affect, showing how both admired guys like Wagner.



> But I have that handsome green Box of Bax symphonies on my shelf; I've listened to them all once, squirming quite a bit, and shuffling, and getting nowhere. But I still can't help thinking that he ought to be my kind of thing, so I know I'll try again sometime. Thanks for your post. It gives me hope!


Your welcome. It's really only the 7th which has "clicked" with me. Next will be the 6th symphony, which I've also got. I personally just take these things "one at a time." Given the complexity & uniqueness of his stuff, maybe it's an idea just to start with one symphony of the cycle, give it "all you've got" & continue with it from there. One of the members said above that he even listens to seperate movements just on their own. I have been known to do that with Mahler, so maybe this could also work in "breaking down" Bax?...


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## Elgarian

Sid James said:


> I think another way I'm beginning to hear Bax's music in a more "positive light" is to think of him *more like a modern "atonal" composer* rather than a kind of post-Romantic or "Impressionist"


This is an area where I still have immense difficulties, and I think it's this aspect which is giving rise to the problems. It doesn't in itself bother me overmuch (there's so much music of all kinds still to explore that I'm not in danger of running out of exciting new discoveries); but my guess is that where Bax is at his most traditionalist, I have least trouble - and vice versa.



> In saying that Bax should be 'your kind of composer' are you saying that because you like Elgar or (If I know correctly?) Wagner then you should automatically like him?


Well there's something of that in it. But it's also due to a recognition of what I might describe as 'spirit of place' or 'landscape feeling' in Bax's music, which I have a weakness for. And most of all it's due to the fact that from time to time I hear _Bits_ of Bax that wow me - like (as we've said already) the first few minutes of _Tintagel_. So I think: 'Aha! I must be in a Bax Mood. Let's hear more.' And then the 'more' leaves me with the usual feelings of dissatisfaction. It may be that too much of my personal programming, as it were, is extra-musical. I gravitate towards music that sends me off on imagined mental, emotional, and spiritual journeys - the musical equivalent, perhaps, of someone who might prefer figurative to abstract painting (not that I do, myself). My only defence (if I need one) is that Bax's titles do tend to encourage that approach: stuff called things like 'November Woods' or 'The Garden of Fand' dangles a big carrot in front of someone like me!


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Bax wrote several chamber music for various ensembles that I have been wanting to listen. These include a nonet, a harp quartet, oboe quintet, and then the usual SQ, piano quintet and piano trio. Anybody listened to these?


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## Sid James

Elgarian said:


> This is an area where I still have immense difficulties, and I think it's this aspect which is giving rise to the problems. It doesn't in itself bother me overmuch (there's so much music of all kinds still to explore that I'm not in danger of running out of exciting new discoveries); *but my guess is that where Bax is at his most traditionalist, I have least trouble - and vice versa*.


Well, it's okay to just like a certain amount of a composer's works if they "speak" to you in special ways in which their others maybe don't. I'm the same way with some composers, eg. Richard Strauss - I can really "connect" with his post-1945 works, but his earlier works don't get to me a fraction as much. It's probably true to say that the war changed the man & his outlook kind of became more personal & intimate. But I still listen to his earlier works ocassionally, not only for enjoyment, but also to get my head around where the man was coming from, so to speak.

I think that a fair number of classical listeners who are at the intermediate to advanced level of experience kind of beat themselves (or constantly run into brick walls) with certain pieces or composers that they are craving to "get" or "understand" but in the end just go back to things they like on a "gut feeling" basis. I don't think there's any problem with that, it's just human, but it is good to try now and again to listen to works "difficult" for you, because there's always the off-chance that you can connect in deeper ways like you maybe didn't before (for whatever reason). So I admire people like you who keep trying despite some reservations or whatever, but don't worry too much if you're not kind of getting what you think you "should" out of these pieces...



> Well there's something of that in it. But it's also due to *a recognition of what I might describe as 'spirit of place' or 'landscape feeling' in Bax's music*, which I have a weakness for. And most of all it's due to the fact that from time to time I hear _Bits_ of Bax that wow me - like (as we've said already) the first few minutes of _Tintagel_. So I think: 'Aha! I must be in a Bax Mood. Let's hear more.' And then the 'more' leaves me with the usual feelings of dissatisfaction. It may be that too much of my personal programming, as it were, is extra-musical. *I gravitate towards music that sends me off on imagined mental, emotional, and spiritual journeys - the musical equivalent, perhaps, of someone who might prefer figurative to abstract painting *(not that I do, myself). My only defence (if I need one) is that Bax's titles do tend to encourage that approach: stuff called things like 'November Woods' or 'The Garden of Fand' dangles a big carrot in front of someone like me!


This is interesting, & I'm talking to the parts I have put in bold above. I read something about the second movt. of that 7th symphony in the liner notes of the Naxos disc. After hearing conductor Adrian Boult's recording of that work, Bax said that Boult got the "languid summer feeling" of the slow movement spot-on. That's funny because when I listened to it I had a strong image in my mind of a night-time feel, perhaps by the banks of the Thames River in London. There are also these sequences of notes going down the scale - fragments of them at first, but then stated in about the middle of the movt. by the whole orchestra, & it sounded to me like a peal of bells. So there you go, I didn't get the "image" that Bax was talking about. Granted, I didn't listen to Boult's recording, & my "image" of the city was probably in the warmer months, defininitely not Winter. So (like you) I connected with the imagery in his music there, but in a quite different way than what the man intended himself. So what you're saying is spot-on, his music has a strong visual element, but maybe it's kind of less emphatic than some others & kind of up to the individual listener to "decode." Bax's 7th symphony made me "hear" the city of London just as Vaughan William's 2nd (London) symphony does, but funnily enough, it wasn't Bax's intention to convey that...

*@ HC *- A former member did post the cover of a Naxos disc of Bax's chamber music earlier on this thread (link to that post below). You might have found out about these things by now, but I know Naxos has put out a lot of the man's chamber music, apart from his orchestral & solo piano things. Worth checking out, I agree...

http://www.talkclassical.com/4386-arnold-bax-3.html#post102153


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## Ukko

For some reason I like Bax's piano sonatas - but nothing else. His orchestral music feels turgid, often oxygen-depleted, peat-smoke-filled thick. It isn't that I can't follow it, it's that I _can_.

:cheers:


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## Elgarian

Sid James said:


> I read something about the second movt. of that 7th symphony in the liner notes of the Naxos disc. After hearing conductor Adrian Boult's recording of that work, Bax said that Boult got the "languid summer feeling" of the slow movement spot-on. That's funny because when I listened to it I had a strong image in my mind of a night-time feel, perhaps by the banks of the Thames River in London. There are also these sequences of notes going down the scale - fragments of them at first, but then stated in about the middle of the movt. by the whole orchestra, & it sounded to me like a peal of bells. So there you go, I didn't get the "image" that Bax was talking about. Granted, I didn't listen to Boult's recording, & my "image" of the city was probably in the warmer months, defininitely not Winter. So (like you) I connected with the imagery in his music there, but in a quite different way than what the man intended himself. So what you're saying is spot-on, his music has a strong visual element, but maybe it's kind of less emphatic than some others & kind of up to the individual listener to "decode." Bax's 7th symphony made me "hear" the city of London just as Vaughan William's 2nd (London) symphony does, but funnily enough, it wasn't Bax's intention to convey that...


I think that's fine, and we're completely at liberty to play with the imagery we perceive, as much as we like. It's not precise science, is it, the evocation of feeling through music? If someone paints a portrait, we've no choice but to regard it as a portrait. But an abstract painting is about fundamental principles of tone, texture, shape and colour, so we can bring all kinds of figurative resonances to it that the painter may not have intended.

In music, unless we're being given really strong clues (eg by words that are sung in a cantata, say, or, in opera, a plot unfolding), we're nearly always bringing our own personal expectations to bear on the abstract sounds we hear. So in the absence of any firm guide by the composer himself, it's not surprising that we find ourselves able to respond with a variety of imagined ideas/images/emotions. With something like _Tintagel_ though, it's inescapable, isn't it - once we know the title, we can't get away from images of the towering cliffs, the crash of the sea through Merlin's cave, the flicker of light on water.

This conversation spurred me on to try some Bax again, this time listening to the harp-based chamber music:










But the long-awaited breakthrough remains elusive. As ever, there are shimmering passages with a Celtic flavour that make me stir with interest, but then a few minutes later I'm lost, and my attention drifts away onto something more engaging like the book whose reading I've interrupted to listen to this. I had one more go at _Tintagel_ the next day - but whatever it is that I need to make me ready to receive it, I don't have it yet. Once again I responded powerfully to the first minutes - surely one of the most ravishing and evocative first few minutes I know; and once again I just quietly lost it, afterwards. Like going to a lecture where the speaker begins by promising to talk about exciting new developments in the study of one's favourite subject, and then goes on to talk about some obscurely uninteresting aspect of it.

So I'm not there, alas. Next year, maybe!


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## Toddlertoddy

I need a few recommendations for *chamber works* by Bax. He's a good orchestrator, but I don't like it, but his chamber works seem promising. Any ideas?


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## Blake

An absolutely tremendous composer. I'm getting deeper and deeper into his majestic works.


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## AClockworkOrange

I have just started listening to the Symphonies (Handley/BBC).

My gateway to the music was The Garden of Fand, subsequently the Boult Conducts Bax album from Lyrita.

Northern Ballad No. 1 and November Woods also stood out on this recording.

So far, a very interesting composer. I am looking forward to exploring further.


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## maestro267

I'm gonna put this out there: Bax is perhaps the greatest orchestrator among British composers. His sound world blends that of Ravel with a little Stravinskian punch. His use of mystical harmonies, tremolando strings and distant-sounding muted brass is unlike anything I've ever heard.


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## chalkpie

AClockworkOrange said:


> I have just started listening to the Symphonies (Handley/BBC).
> 
> My gateway to the music was The Garden of Fand, subsequently the Boult Conducts Bax album from Lyrita.
> 
> Northern Ballad No. 1 and November Woods also stood out on this recording.
> 
> So far, a very interesting composer. I am looking forward to exploring further.


Hey there - I am thinking about pulling the trigger on the Bax Box with Handley/BBC.

How are the sonics overall would you say? Great performances? Would you recommend this cycle to a Bax virgin?

Many thanks.


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## Selby

chalkpie said:


> Hey there - I am thinking about pulling the trigger on the Bax Box with Handley/BBC.
> 
> How are the sonics overall would you say? Great performances? Would you recommend this cycle to a Bax virgin?
> 
> Many thanks.


Absolutely recommended, it's my 'go-to' for the symphonies. Also includes a really great and informative hour long interview with Handley on the final disk.


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## chalkpie

Selby said:


> Absolutely recommended, it's my 'go-to' for the symphonies. Also includes a really great and informative hour long interview with Handley on the final disk.


Great - thanks........


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## starthrower

I have the older Bryden Thompson box, but I'm not crazy about the sonics, so Handley may be the way to go? 

The piano sonatas are fine too. I have the first two on Naxos.


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## AClockworkOrange

Selby said:


> Absolutely recommended, it's my 'go-to' for the symphonies. Also includes a really great and informative hour long interview with Handley on the final disk.


I couldn't agree more with Selby, I am glad I chose this set and have not regretted it for even a millisecond.

Handley's recordings of the symphonies are superb, both in recording quality and performance.

I particularly enjoyed the interview with Handley, it is something I wish more conductors would do.


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## Richannes Wrahms

The tone poems are pretty good as they are, but the symphonies could do better with some orchestral rearrangement and perhaps some pruning too. There are very interesting techniques and also great (excellent) material, but it is often too obscured or buried within the dense textures.


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## deprofundis

i just discover Bax incredible fantastic universe, whit symphony 3 the happy forrest great great composer.


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## Torkelburger

The climax from the opening of this always gives me goosebumps, every time I hear it. This man deserves to be held in the same regard as Vaughn-Williams and Holst IMHO. His compositions are on par with the best of anyone from the same period.


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## sbmonty

I've just listened to symphonies nos. 5 and 6. They are really engaging. A lot of drama and a sense of nature. They remind me of Sibelius tone poems.


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## christomacin

Mirror Image said:


> Have you all heard Bax's "In Memoriam, sextet for cor anglais, harp & string quartet"? This has to be one of the most beautiful chamber pieces ever wrote!
> 
> As you know I normally don't go for chamber music, unless it's really good, but this recording is just outstanding:


The recently discovered orchestrated version of "In Memoriam" is one of my favorite pieces by Bax:


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## David Phillips

In the 1950s music critic, Michael Kennedy wrote to RVW and asked him how he felt about his late friend's musical standing. RVW replied that regretfully he had become 'doubtful' about the value of Bax's music. This was not at all an uncommon reaction at the time, there being hardly any records of Bax's music available with concert performances of his works being very few and far between. Now we have most of this great composer's works on disc, it's still a great pity that concert promotors prefer to programme the same old 'pops' and refuse to give Bax an outing. I remember a time in the 1960s when there wasn't one record available to buy of RVW's 'The Lark Ascending' because he was out of fashion and now there are many versions. Hopefully Bax's time will come and we will be able to hear his music live as well as on disc.


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## Kivimees

Bax (in my highly subjective opinion) is tremendously undervalued as a composer.

Now that the days in this part of the world have become so short, I can think of nothing more satisfying than to listen to my collection of Bax symphonies (conducted by Bryden Thomson). :tiphat:


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## eugeneonagain

I just came here to check the guestbooks for Bax - I'm listening to his 2nd symphony right now - and here he is as last post of the thread!

I listened to his 1st symphony earlier on this evening and it's amusing that someone in the comments (on you tube) remarked on the astonishing similarity of the first movement's recurring theme and Star Wars' Imperial March. There have been so many comparisons made between the Star Wars music and dozens of earlier works that I've stopped taking notice, but it really does.

I've never been a big symphony listener (though I've listened to more in recent years), but I'm enjoying these Bax Symphonies. Previously I'd only listened to his shorter tone poems.


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## philoctetes

The ASMF disc is my favorite Bax... the one by the Nash is another









I love the soundscapes Bax can conjure, but the symphonies are a bit bloated for me.


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## cougarjuno

I've enjoyed Bax for a long time and it's difficult to choose one symphony or work. I agree that his chamber pieces are also wonderful (though the violin sonatas seem a little too dense). Symphony #7 is wonderful as is #3 and #6. November Woods is one of best tone poems IMO


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## leonsm

christomacin said:


> The recently discovered orchestrated version of "In Memoriam" is one of my favorite pieces by Bax:


I loved "In Memoriam" (the tone poem in the video above, not the sextet), where I can find more pieces like that from Bax?
:tiphat:


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## MusicSybarite

The beginning of _Tintagel_ has to be one of the most magical and epic ever. It's like a sunrise, incredibly atmospheric, finely depicted, and when the trumpets enter playing their even more epic theme, is just priceless!! I think this is the best recording of that masterpiece. Bax at his best!!


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## joen_cph

https://www.independent.ie/entertai...nd-ireland-a-celtic-love-affair-36348529.html


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## AeolianStrains

Bax is currently today's featured article on Wikipedia.


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## philoctetes

Rediscovering the Bax symphonies again... through Thomson's recordings... I like them more than Handley and Lloyd-Jones... Thomson is more mysterious, elemental, with insight on weight and rubato... two classic Lyrita CDs are up next... Leppard and Fredman conducting

Handley's last two recordings of tone poems seem to fit his dramatic approach better... like Boult... but still do not conquer Thomson's visions...

Also exploring related Brits and finding some great recordings by Andrew Davis and the BBC... Bax for viola, Delius' Appalchian Suite... chandos has some great stuff but i discovered Amazon has a problem with Chandos downloads... which cost half the price of CDs... same with Auto-rip downloads... and I have failed to get their attention on this... wondering if others have this problem...


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## philoctetes

The putdown that Bax is some kind of episodic patchwork with no connecting tissue seems to lose sway when Thomson's pacing reveals the connective logic that is lost when others hurry to the next episode... reminds me a bit of Tennstedt's Mahler...


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## sstucky

Given that I love Walton and RVW, I has even never quite gotten into Bax. Any suggestions for something preferably symphonic that might change my mind?


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## Art Rock

Try one of his symphonic poems (I'd recommend November woods or Tintagel).


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## Enthusiast

Art Rock said:


> Try one of his symphonic poems (I'd recommend November woods or Tintagel).


And the Garden of Fand. The two are perhaps the Bax works that most easily appeal to non-Baxians and would-be-Baxians.


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## flamencosketches

sstucky said:


> Given that I love Walton and RVW, I has even never quite gotten into Bax. Any suggestions for something preferably symphonic that might change my mind?


The first symphony has been really clicking with me lately.


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## starthrower

I have quite a few Bax CDs and this one gets my highest recommendation.


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## philoctetes

My Bax collection just gained 11 CDs over the last 3 months... when I mentioned this in another thread the critics had a good laugh at my 3rd rate taste... starthrower's rec is one of the best... all of the Bax on Chandos is worth having... avoid David Lloyd-Jones on Naxos

Naturally, my Bax wallow had to lead to ... Delius, where Beecham on EMI should be avoided to fully appreciate... neither composer was previously new to me... but Alwyn also caught my interest for the first time...


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## starthrower

I gained several last year when I found four old Chandos editions at a library sale. All non symphony recordings. I don't know if they improved the sound on the more recent issues but some of those early CDs recorded in a church with Brydon Thomson sound pretty lousy. Seems like they needed some baffling to absorb the sound bouncing off the hard surfaces. The worst offender is that winter themed disc with Margaret Fingerhut on piano. Now titled Orchestral Works vol 7.


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## philoctetes

I've seen complaints about the sound on Thomson but it's good enough for me.. I'd always liked his #3... but got stuck for years on the wrong option with the Handley symphony set which disappointed me... Handley's set has compressed sound and he is unusually hectic... Thomson is *airier*, with subtle rubato, also a quality of his tone poems...

so I returned to Thomson's #3 and decided to try #2 which was a winner, then one-by-one completed the whole set, #7 arrived yesterday...

But I didn't stop there and got both of Handley's two last volumes of tone poems (better than his symphonies) and three of the Lyritas which may be better alternatives than Handley's

PS - I agree on the Fingerhut disc, also her other one with Handley is meh... so yeah, once we start sifting through all the Chandos (there is a lot!) some is better than others...

my last BRO order included some of Handley's Simpson... which is all new territory for me..


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## starthrower

I can't complain about the Thomson symphony cycle other than the sound on some of the recordings. They used two different venues so some sound better than others.


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## Enthusiast

philoctetes said:


> ... Delius, where Beecham on EMI should be avoided to fully appreciate...


This seems like a strange recommendation. For many Beecham was the king for Delius and I've certainly enjoyed what I've heard of what he did. Could you say more on why you feel he should be avoided.


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## philoctetes

1) fully
2) EMI

Aside from those two conditions, what's to explain? I prefer Beecham's earlier recordings and posted some alternative recs on the Delius guestbook


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## Merl

I love Bax's String Quartets. This is a superb disc.


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## flamencosketches

philoctetes said:


> My Bax collection just gained 11 CDs over the last 3 months... when I mentioned this in another thread the critics had a good laugh at my 3rd rate taste... starthrower's rec is one of the best... all of the Bax on Chandos is worth having... avoid David Lloyd-Jones on Naxos
> 
> Naturally, my Bax wallow had to lead to ... Delius, where Beecham on EMI should be avoided to fully appreciate... neither composer was previously new to me... but Alwyn also caught my interest for the first time...


That's too funny-I love Beecham's Delius, and I also like David-Lloyd Jones in Bax. To be fair, I haven't heard any of the famous Chandos Bax stuff, so what do I know. But I find Beecham a far superior interpreter of Delius than the likes of Mackerras, whom I see others extol.


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## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> That's too funny-I love Beecham's Delius, and I also like David-Lloyd Jones in Bax. To be fair, I haven't heard any of the famous Chandos Bax stuff, so what do I know. But I find Beecham a far superior interpreter of Delius than the likes of Mackerras, whom I see others extol.


I admit these are subtle matters of taste and I am not so subtle in stating my preference ha... who knows LLoyd-Jones may impress me when I'm tired of the others...

Like I said, I posted more about Delius in his guestbook today... perhaps I should have said "supplemented" rather than "avoided" about Beecham's EMI ... I think Beecham would still be justifiably famous for his earlier Delius recordings even without the later ones... I agree on Mackerras whose recordings rarely age well for me... though he conducts many composers I like...

For the very new I have really enjoyed Davis and the BBC... the Appalachia disc is beautiful... and his Bax viola disc is pretty good too..


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## flamencosketches

philoctetes said:


> I admit these are subtle matters of taste and I am not so subtle in stating my preference ha... who knows LLoyd-Jones may impress me when I'm tired of the others...
> 
> Like I said, I posted more about Delius in his guestbook today... perhaps I should have said "supplemented" rather than "avoided" about Beecham's EMI ... I think Beecham would still be justifiably famous for his earlier Delius recordings even without the later ones... I agree on Mackerras whose recordings rarely age well for me... though he conducts many composers I like...


No harm done my friend.



philoctetes said:


> For the very new I have really enjoyed Davis and the BBC... the *Appalachia disc* is beautiful... and his Bax viola disc is pretty good too..


Looks excellent. I'll seek it out. I don't have Appalachia in my library.

Edit: I've heard great things about Barbirolli's Delius, too, but I'm skeptical. Delius doesn't seem like the kind of composer who'd be well-suited to Barbirolli's temperament. But we'll see... I seem to recall hearing that his final recording was Delius's Appalachia.


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## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> Edit: I've heard great things about Barbirolli's Delius, too, but I'm skeptical. Delius doesn't seem like the kind of composer who'd be well-suited to Barbirolli's temperament. But we'll see... I seem to recall hearing that his final recording was Delius's Appalachia.


Barbirolli's Delius has the big rich lower strings that I also hear in his Sibelius... and takes time for the details...


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## philoctetes

Back to Bax... after going neck-deep in Thomson I'm giving Handley another chance with disc 3, #5 and 6... one would expect slower tempos from an older guy but not Vern... these symphonies are not easy to be cornered... whether by musician or listener... but after all these listens I no longer hear disconnected themes at all... I hear another Sibelius who is just a little harder to grasp... so I want to hear it again...

I probably need to explore some more Nielson...


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## starthrower

I love Nielsen. He's his own man. Sounds like no one else. The Blomstedt/SF Symphony CDs in two volumes sound great!


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## Josquin13

I like Bryden Thomsen's Bax recordings, and tend to slightly prefer them to Handley's for the most part; although some of Handley's recordings were very good (such as his "Spring Fire", for instance: 



 ). But the most idiomatic conductor that I've heard in Bax--next to Sir Adrian Boult, is Norman del Mar. He's seems to be more deeply inside this music than others. The main drawback is that most of Del Mar's Bax recordings were made with the BBC Symphony Orchestra for radio broadcasts, & it wasn't a great orchestra back in the 1960s. In fact, the playing can be scrappy at times. Nevertheless, the conducting is fascinating. Del Mar seems to understand exactly were Bax's music needs to be more romantic & where it has a more mysterious Celtic flavor, and when it is surprisingly modern. I don't think the other conductors bring out the modernity in Bax's music quite as perceptively as Del Mar does (including Boult). It's a shame that one of the British classical labels didn't contract Del Mar to record all of Bax's Symphonies in the 1960s, 70s, or 80s, with a better orchestra. Granted, Del Mar did record the Bax 6th with the New Philharmonia in 1967, which has been released by Lyrita, & it is arguably one of the better performances of a Bax symphony on record. However, the other BBC performances must be heard on You Tube, at least I've never seen them commercially released. Does anyone know if they've ever been issued?

Del Mar, Bax, Symphony no. 1: 



Del Mar, Bax, Symphony no. 3: 



Del Mar, Bax, Symphony no. 6: 




Symphony No. 6, on Lyrita: https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-6-S...+norman+del+mar&qid=1594492328&s=music&sr=1-3

Other Bax radio broadcasts from Del Mar & the BBC Symphony Orchestra:

Del Mar, Bax, Spring Fire: 



Overture to a Picaresque Comedy: 




Also, what do people think of Sir Edward Downes' Bax recordings? especially his recording of the 3rd Symphony? I can find his tempos a bit on the fast side, and it takes away from some of the mystery in this music, but I like Downes' interpretations as an alternative view. For instance, his 3rd is very different from Del Mar's: 



.

By the way, Del Mar was also excellent in the music of Delius (Elgar, & Vaughan Williams).

Examples of Del Mar conducting the music of Delius:
https://www.amazon.com/Hearing-Firs...=del+mar+delius&qid=1594501675&s=music&sr=1-7
--The Walk to the Paradise Garden: 



--Life's Dance: 



--Piano Concerto, with Philip Fowke: 



--Double Concerto for Violin & Cello: 








--The Magic Fountain: 




So too was Eric Fenby, who worked closely with the blind Delius as his amanuensis between 1928 & 1934, during Delius's final years:










Fenby, Delius: The Song of the High Hills: 



Fenby, Delius: A Song of Summer: 




https://www.amazon.com/Rhapsody-Fen...ic+fenby+delius&qid=1594501317&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Delius-Song-...c+fenby+delius&qid=1594501317&s=music&sr=1-10

I like Sir Thomas Beecham's Delius myself, but he does keep the music moving at slightly faster pace than others. Still, it is beautifully shaped. The earliest EMI CD remasters weren't great, sound-wise. Beecham's recordings sounded better on the British import EMI LPs. I don't know if the situation has changed; although probably not, since EMI is one of the worst labels when it comes to remastering their older catalogue (except for their Testament series).

Finally, David Hurwitz was raving about Eugene Ormandy's Delius with the Philadelphia Orchestra several weeks ago, and I agree that it's worth hearing the old Philadelphia Orchestra play this music (though I'm not usually a big Ormandy fan myself, with some exceptions): 




Yet, for me, Sir Adrian Boult remains the conductor of choice for pre-WW2 British composers.

Boult, Bax, Tintagel, a BBC radio broadcast from 1962: 



Boult, Bax,, Tintagel, London Philharmonic, Pristine Audio, from 1954: 



Boult, Bax, Northern Ballad no. 1, London Philharmonic, Lyrita, 1972: 



Boult, Bax, Lyrita CD: https://www.amazon.com/Bax-Northern...drian+boult+bax&qid=1594496385&s=music&sr=1-2

As with Del Mar, it's a shame that Boult wasn't contracted to record more Bax, especially during the stereo era. I expect a cycle of Bax symphonies by Boult would have swept the board.


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## flamencosketches

I really gotta get on this Lyrita stuff. Seems they've put out tons of recordings worth listening to.


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## starthrower

I got the Lyrita Alwyn symphonies from Discogs. Both brand new CDs for 5 bucks each. And I have one of their Rubbra discs of symphonies 6 & 8 which I really enjoy.


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## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> I really gotta get on this Lyrita stuff. Seems they've put out tons of recordings worth listening to.


Lyrita is to Bax, Finzi, Alwyn etc... what Crystal is to Hovhaness... authoritative tube-age stereo recordings that are still hard to beat... I just got the Alwyn concerto disc for a steal and would like the add the Alwyn #2

Alwyn, Simpson, Nielsen are all getting a kickback from my Bax and Delius wallow... which actually started with RVW... I'well never gone this far into British 20c before cause Elgar and Holst never did much for me... and Walton seems also well skilled but a bit frigid... but I heard that Egdon Heath by Holst recently and liked that, after seeing it compared to Bax... I guess it's the more impressionist stuff I like, to a point... Finzi and Bantock are in that vein but don't really hold my interest, not enough complexity...


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## philoctetes

btw, the last two Lyritas I bought were CD-Rs, which dampens my enthusiasm for that label a bit... they are full price in most listings... so buyer beware...


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## philoctetes

Del Mar's Delius for Chandos is part of that deceptive-looking Essential Delius coupled with Handley and Hickox... I'm still introducing my ears to his Bax... his strings are the bomb...


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## philoctetes

Exploring Nielsen I find Bryden Thomson once gain sounds pretty good on Spotify... and Vanska with #1 and 6... a coupling I know from the Blomstedt series... #1 sounds like Dvorak to me... and #6 is just far out,... they make a nice pair...


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## flamencosketches

philoctetes said:


> btw, the last two Lyritas I bought were CD-Rs, which dampens my enthusiasm for that label a bit... they are full price in most listings... so buyer beware...


What were they? So I can avoid them...


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## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> What were they? So I can avoid them...


Bax #2 & 5 and Alwyn conducting his concertos... the Bax #1 & 7 was OK... and I think my favorite of the two... bracketing his symphonic career which was mature from the start...


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## BlackAdderLXX

I'm seeing Bax all over TC lately. Thanks for the links Josquin, listened to Spring Fire and realized that I think I like this music!


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