# Human feelings experiment



## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Hi! I would like to do an experiment which is aimed to prove (or not) the capability of objectively conveying human emotions through music. Shortly, my idea was creating a video which includes several tracks of less than 1min, these tracks must be listened, possibly by someone who doesn't know classical music well and thus doesn't know them already, and the listener must write down what the music conveys to him, before the real meaning is revealed. (I could use it as a personal experiment to carry on myself or maybe also to publish it on my YT channel.)
In order to be as objective as possible these tracks should be taken from a composition in which the composer made clear what emotion had to be conveyed, for example I thought about Tristan for "longing" or the moment after Aurora falls dead in the Sleeping Beauty for "despair", since it's clearly written on the score "despair of the king and queen". 
So I would need some pieces from which I can sample these tracks which have to represent a single very specific human emotion: if someone remember a piece which in his mind which was very effective in doing this that would help very much! I think classical "romantic" music is the best period to take these samples from since composers in that period tried to do just that (convey human emotions), but any other interesting idea would be accepted as well!

I also thought about a second experiment which will be about "imagination", in other words the concept in the same but the focus should be about describing something, not an emotion. As examples of tracks I thought about "au bord d'une source" by Liszt, the magic fire from The Ring or "une barque sur l'ocean" by Ravel: musics which should evoke a clear image in your head. Some more ideas of this kind would be very welcome too!

I'll include some possible candidates I've thought about until now to let you have a better idea of what I look for, you can also tell me if something is unappropriate for such goal in your view:

FEELINGS
calmness – "moorning mood"
longing – from Tristan und Isolde prelude
romantic love – theme from Romeo and Juliet fantasy ouverture
despair - Aurora's death from The Sleeping Beauty
marvel (from natural beauty) - Eine Alpensinfonie
remorse - from Tannhauser Ouverture
anger - from Elektra
...

IMAGES
old castle - from Picture of an exhibition
magic fire - from The Ring
une barque sur l'ocean - by Ravel
storm - from Die Walkure prelude
a spring - au bourd d’une source by Liszt
...

Thanks!


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Sorry. You can't prove the capability of objectively conveying human emotions through music. You can show that a lot of people associate X piece with Y emotion/image, but that shows intersubjectivity not neccessarily objectivity. And it could be that people from Western cultures associate certain emotions with pieces, but that people from another culture might not.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Less than a minute? To convey real emotions? Not gonna happen.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

ClassicalPower said:


> So I would need some pieces from which I can sample these tracks which have to represent a single very specific human emotion: if someone remember a piece which in his mind which was very effective in doing this that would help very much! I think classical "romantic" music is the best period to take these samples from since composers in that period tried to do just that (convey human emotions), but any other interesting idea would be accepted as well!


The musical expression of emotion or affect is a subject with a long history in western musical aesthetics. Anyone attempting a project like the one you are proposing will have to confront some cautionary words from earlier thinkers. Those of Eduard Hanslick, published in his _On the Musically Beautiful_, are perhaps among the most consequential. Hanslick denied that music could express many specific emotions because a number of the "higher" emotions aren't defined by feeling alone, but also require the conveying of complex conceptual content. Hope, for example, requires a look to the future and the anticipation of a future state more satisfactory than ones present condition. Remorse requires brooding on past failings. How does one accomplish these things by purely musical means, that is, without verbal constructs and associations? Jealousy and remorse are likewise intractable. Therefore, Hanslick maintained that music alone could only express very simple states like happiness, sadness, or unfocused rage. To get beyond that kind of basic or raw emotion one must associate music with extramusical phenomena and situations, like you have with your Strauss and Wagner examples, or rely on accepted conventions, those based on intersubjective agreement, as ORigel has put it.

Some modern writers have made arguments for the musical expression of cognitively complex emotions, but they have required understanding musical passages in a broad structural context, as they relate to the entire structure of musical works.

Hanslick was much more optimistic about music's capacity to convey images or physical phenomena, through onomatopoeia and mimicking physical motions.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

In short, the answer to this is at least partially yes. For example, going beyond simple thigs like anger or sadness, love songs are largely identifiable across cultural boundaries. There have been (i believe) numerous studies on things like this, but here is one from Harvard: New Harvard study says music is universal language.

However, I would posit some of what music communicates is of course dependent on understanding the specific musical vocabulary that the composer/artist works in. An obvious example of this is Mozart's musical joke, which of course requires the listener to have knowledge of western music theory to get lots (perhaps some of the jokes would translate cross-culturally) of the jokes.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

My reply above was too pessimistic about music's expressive capacity, which tends to happen when one starts with Hanslick. Anyway, when I said music can only express simple states like happy and sad, what I should have said was that the states music expresses can't be captured and specified verbally in any objective way, or likely in any way that garners broad intersubjective agreement, beyond simple affective categories like happy and sad. Music can, in reality, express and induce infinite subtle shades of mood, but there seems to be no sure way to effectively translate these moods into nonmusical language. Their nature as expressive phenomena can't be unraveled from their musical sense.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

*_*


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

With (mostly) late 19th century western European symphonic music?! Do you really think that they map to other very different times or cultures?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

If you take a good look around on this forum and reading the topics , you have all your answers, bit of work I know .
Good luck


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Becca said:


> With (mostly) late 19th century western European symphonic music?! Do you really think that they map to other very different times or cultures?


I would guess the "feelings" section to a large degree would whereas the "images" section probably wouldn't. Music is a universal language may be a trope, but as the link I posted demonstrates, it is actually quite true.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> My reply above was too pessimistic about music's expressive capacity, which tends to happen when one starts with Hanslick. Anyway, when I said music can only express simple states like happy and sad, what I should have said was that the states music expresses can't be captured and specified verbally in any objective way, or likely in any way that garners broad intersubjective agreement, beyond simple affective categories like happy and sad. Music can, in reality, express and induce infinite subtle shades of mood, but there seems to be no sure way to effectively translate these moods into nonmusical language. Their nature as expressive phenomena can't be unraveled from their musical sense.


Yes! If we could just write down what music says, then I doubt we would have whole internet forums devoted to music. Mahler once said some variation of "where words end, music begins", and love or hate his music, I find it difficult to argue with that sentiment.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> Yes! If we could just write down what music says, then I doubt we would have whole internet forums devoted to music. Mahler once said some variation of "where words end, music begins", and love or hate his music, I find it difficult to argue with that sentiment.


In the same vein there is Mendelssohn's famous statement: “People usually complain that music is so ambiguous, and what they are supposed to think when they hear it is so unclear, while words are understood by everyone. But for me it is exactly the opposite...what the music I love expresses to me are thoughts not too indefinite for words, but rather too definite.”


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> Sorry. You can't prove the capability of objectively conveying human emotions through music. You can show that a lot of people associate X piece with Y emotion/image, but that shows intersubjectivity not neccessarily objectivity. And it could be that people from Western cultures associate certain emotions with pieces, but that people from another culture might not.


Well, let's find out! Can't we?


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> The musical expression of emotion or affect is a subject with a long history in western musical aesthetics. Anyone attempting a project like the one you are proposing will have to confront some cautionary words from earlier thinkers. Those of Eduard Hanslick, published in his _On the Musically Beautiful_, are perhaps among the most consequential. Hanslick denied that music could express many specific emotions because a number of the "higher" emotions aren't defined by feeling alone, but also require the conveying of complex conceptual content. Hope, for example, requires a look to the future and the anticipation of a future state more satisfactory than ones present condition. Remorse requires brooding on past failings. How does one accomplish these things by purely musical means, that is, without verbal constructs and associations? Jealousy and remorse are likewise intractable. Therefore, Hanslick maintained that music alone could only express very simple states like happiness, sadness, or unfocused rage. To get beyond that kind of basic or raw emotion one must associate music with extramusical phenomena and situations, like you have with your Strauss and Wagner examples, or rely on accepted conventions, those based on intersubjective agreement, as ORigel has put it.
> 
> Some modern writers have made arguments for the musical expression of cognitively complex emotions, but they have required understanding musical passages in a broad structural context, as they relate to the entire structure of musical works.
> 
> Hanslick was much more optimistic about music's capacity to convey images or physical phenomena, through onomatopoeia and mimicking physical motions.


Well but I don't fully agree with Hanslick, I think music has more capabilities than that, but anyway I think this experiment will be helpful in the understanding of this phenomenon which for is not settled yet. As an example I didn't certainly got the "remorse" feeling after I've listened the first time to Tannhauser ouverture, but when I've learnt that that leitmotives means "remorse" I was really impressed of how close the feeling I got was close to that. Ofc you may say that I was conditioned by was I've read after, but this is why I want to make this experiment to unaware people and collect their answers!


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

Becca said:


> With (mostly) late 19th century western European symphonic music?! Do you really think that they map to other very different times or cultures?


Again... let's find out! As I said if you have any other example from any other culture which in your mind is really effective I'll be very interested in that as well.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> Sorry. You can't prove the capability of objectively conveying human emotions through music. You can show that a lot of people associate X piece with Y emotion/image, but that shows intersubjectivity not neccessarily objectivity. And it could be that people from Western cultures associate certain emotions with pieces, but that people from another culture might not.


How can you say that if no one experimented that?


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> My reply above was too pessimistic about music's expressive capacity, which tends to happen when one starts with Hanslick. Anyway, when I said music can only express simple states like happy and sad, what I should have said was that the states music expresses can't be captured and specified verbally in any objective way, or likely in any way that garners broad intersubjective agreement, beyond simple affective categories like happy and sad. Music can, in reality, express and induce infinite subtle shades of mood, but there seems to be no sure way to effectively translate these moods into nonmusical language. Their nature as expressive phenomena can't be unraveled from their musical sense.


I completely agree with this second take of yours on the matter... we should have to define feelings (with words) in the first place which is not an easy matter and one may even say that their are not all the same for all people, but maybe the experiment may help find out something about this as well.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

ClassicalPower said:


> Well, let's find out! Can't we?


You can't find out. The experiment is flawed. You can make a stronger case for quasi-objectivity against intersubjectivity if your sample is huge and includes people from many cultures. Even then, some would be wired differently and not experience music and emotions the same way.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

ClassicalPower said:


> How can you say that if no one experimented that?


Your experiment being obviously flawed, if it's a sample of people from the same culture.

And this Scientific American article showing that even our facial expressions do not universally reveal our emotions. This puts cold water on your hypothesis, I think.









Facial Expressions Do Not Reveal Emotions


The emotion AI industry, courts and child educators are unknowingly relying on a misunderstanding of Darwin’s ideas




www.scientificamerican.com


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

ClassicalPower said:


> How can you say that if no one experimented that?


Did you check the literature? I'd be shocked if there haven't been a number of experiments asking subjects what images programmatic music provokes, if any, or how a piece of music makes them feel.


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## ClassicalPower (12 mo ago)

ORigel said:


> Did you check the literature? I'd be shocked if there haven't been a number of experiments asking subjects what images programmatic music provokes, if any, or how a piece of music makes them feel.


I didn't check the literature but this was not the aim of this thread, I just wanted to find tracks in order to put together this experiment and see what really happens 🤷‍♂️


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

ORigel said:


> Did you check the literature? I'd be shocked if there haven't been a number of experiments asking subjects what images programmatic music provokes, if any, or how a piece of music makes them feel.


I think that there are videos where lesser known works by great composers and generic works by hack composers are intentionally mislabeled, or not labeled at all, with the intent of creating blind listening situations where reactions to a piece of music aren't tainted by whether or not it's associated with a "great" composer or not.


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