# Messiaen - initial impressions and current opinions?



## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I started exploring Messiaen a few months ago. The impression I've gotten is that he's very difficult and accessible at the same time. Certain works like Hymn, Un Sourire, Poemes Pour Mi, the Demeurer dans l'Amour from Eclairs, and etc strike me as conventionally beautiful, and I wouldn't expect even a person whose primary knowledge of classical is film scores to struggle with appreciating them. 

Then of course there is the weirder stuff. The pattern I'm noticing is that I'll be attracted to the irresistible textures at first, but eventually get bogged down in the repetition and deliberate aimlessness. His voice is so astonishingly unique that I can't help feeling he towers over his peers and anyone I've heard after him, but loving many of his pieces start to finish is still a work in progress for me. 

What has been your experience with his music?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I first heard Messiaen in a performance of the quartet for the end of time, I forget who was playing it now, I think Michael Collins was part of the group, I thought it was rather engaging, especially the long clarinet solo, but not interesting enough to pursue. I remember at roughly the same time hearing Simon Rattle do some symphonic music by him in a prom, it was Des canyons aux étoiles, which I didn’t enjoy. Every musician I know who’s performed in the Turangalîla symphony has said the same thing: fun, fun, fun. It may be more fun to play than to hear of course, I don’t know since I took against his orchestral music.

Then I heard Steven Osborne play the 20 regards, at the time he was just starting out his career, it was a little concert in the Edinburgh fringe, packed out, I thoroughly enjoyed it and I recall being convinced that Osborne had the potential to become a serious musician. I was keen to get to know the other piano music, and felt a bit let down by what I’d heard. Le catalogue des oiseaux especially is a major challenge for me, I’ve put quite a lot of effort into it but so far, I find it totally unmemorable, and formless. (In that way, my relationship with Messiaen’s music is a bit like my relationship with Peter Maxwell Davies’s)

I used to like opera and I remember making an effort to appreciate St, Francois through recordings, I have reservations about the work, but at the back of my mind I suspect the fault’s mine and that it contains hidden treasures. Certainly if I ever get the chance I'd go out of my way to see it.

A few years ago I listened to a lot of the organ music, focusing on Livre du st. Sacrément, méditations sur le mystère de la sainte trinité and Livre d’orgue, I found these particularly rewarding and would recommend these works as a good way into his music. 

Apart from that I’ve heard odd things over the years - various songs and some duets for piano, none have left a strong impression, though as everyone knows, the piano Etudes are “important” for their influence.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I connect well with Messiaen's music. His honest religious and ornithological inspiration have given us a wealth of music.

Having confessed this, I especially appreciate the following pieces:
The organ music (the DG cd box by Olivier Latry is a gem), of course you first have to appreciate organ music....for me Messiaen is Bach's next-of-kin in writing an entire oeuvre for the organ, completely in his own style 
Turangalila, a story of love in a fantastic musical world, I like Chailly/RCO/Decca 
St Francois d' Assisi, conducted by Kent Nagano/DG, it requires a Wagnerian patience to sit through this work, but you will be rewarded for it
La transfiguration de notre seigneur Jesus-Christ, a monument for Messiaens belief, I cherish the recording on Naive by Reinbert de Leeuw 
Eclairs sur l' au-dela, one of Messiaen's last works, on the hereafter, a sort of requiem, beuatifully played by the BPO and Rattle
Couleurs de la Cite Celeste, a rather compact and transparent () signature piece, I have a nice recording by Yvonne Loriod (Messiaens wife) and Pierre Boulez conducting 
Quatuor Pour le Fin du Temps, the recent recording by Martin Frost, Janine Jansen a.o. is really a gem, very intense playing
Vingt Regards sur l'enfant Jesus, I can recommend Pierre Laurent Aimard

A good read on Messiaen:
http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/soaring-aloft/

Messiaen's music often rises to some controversy, you either love it or, well, can't stand it. To some listeners, myself included, the music can carry you away. There doesn't seem too much of a middle ground. There is a famous gossip (never officially confirmed) that Boulez, Messiaens student, once said that the music made him vomit. The large works of Messiaen of course fully contradict the ideas of Boulez himself. Too many notes.

His music is also instantly recognizable, which is quite an accomplishment.

Good luck to anyone in finding out if Messiaen does it for you.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

No
He was talked about, strongly suggested, so I bought various cds, I have nothing in my collection now.
Recently I learned he has affiliations with some church order. 
Discovery of this fact, now finally made sense *the missing piece to the puzzle* , as to why I don't care for any of his music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> The pattern I'm noticing is that I'll be attracted to the irresistible textures at first, but eventually get bogged down in the repetition and deliberate aimlessness. His voice is so astonishingly unique that I can't help feeling he towers over his peers and anyone I've heard after him, but loving many of his pieces start to finish is still a work in progress for me.
> 
> What has been your experience with his music?


Messiaen has a "new conception of musical time," so the "repetition" and "aimlessness" you speak of exist in your perception because you are expecting or looking for a "narrative" continuous thread to follow.

Rather, look at Messiaen as a series of isolated "events" of color. These are like big signposts. They are like big totem poles, or sculptures, which stand alone. Time stands still. After all, this is God, and God is timeless.

Refer to my blog:

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1521-new-conceptions-musical-time.html


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2019)

I've tried several times but just can't connect with his music.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

After an initial exploration which interested me at first, I grew to dislike his music. Now I love it! A lot. I can feel in another world after listening to a Messiaen piece. I think it was getting to love the music of George Benjamin (a student of Messiaen) that opened his music up for me.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I thought this was an outstanding performance… but you have to wait for it to build:






Much of his music is closely associated with nature, and he was also a devout Catholic, religiously and spiritually devoted, often earnest, passionate and interested in calm and peace. The 20th century needed that with all the neurotic composers running around who were getting attention, and he represented something different, more positive and aspiring. The 20th century need that in the Age of Anxiety.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Messiaen is colourful and sublime. However, it is an acquired taste for me, as it had taken me a long time to "get" it. It didn't come naturally for me, even with "easy" pieces like Turangalîla and Quatuor pour la fin du temps. During the past few months I have been submerging myself in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Des Canyons aux étoiles… Pretty amazing!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Partita said:


> I've tried several times but just can't connect with his music.


I also went back at least 3 times over the past decade, with no connection...When I 1st came to his music, back in 2003-05,,I even pretended I liked the music,,,tried to convince myself *This is great stuff*...,,with the hopes I could come around to it. ..


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

First impression: this is meaningless noise. 


Current opinion: this is sublime and brilliant music.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> First impression: this is meaningless noise.
> 
> Current opinion: this is sublime and brilliant music.


Well that's surely progress to hear beauty in what was meaningless noice.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I actually met him at my Alma Mater when I was studying composition there. He was getting on, but a gentle person. He was there in residence for a week of concerts devoted to him. His ear was fabulous, he could look at a score and 'hear it'. If anyone is interested in the techniques he developed, his seminal work on this is here...you do need a musical education though!

https://www.musicroom.com/product/AL21692/-.aspx?clid=510&CAWELAID=120075890000038899&CATARGETID=120075890000275820&CADevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwlujnBRDl2teOp_veulQSJAC5bHgtRak04Cwlt6i2a1akkLZ0hFjUHpTXmLcXxbqb_HmTthoCkCLw_wcB


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> First impression: this is meaningless noise.
> 
> Current opinion: this is sublime and brilliant music.


same here. I rank Messiaen as one of the giants of modernist music, alongside Schoenberg and Bartok. Boulez is fine too, but he does not measure up to these.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> I connect well with Messiaen's music. His honest religious and ornithological inspiration have given us a wealth of music.
> 
> Having confessed this, I especially appreciate the following pieces:
> The organ music (*the DG cd box by Olivier Latry is a gem)*, of course you first have to appreciate organ music....for me Messiaen is Bach's next-of-kin in writing an entire oeuvre for the organ, completely in his own style
> ...


I have the Latry box myself but it is not my first choice.,it surely is the most impressive soundwise speaking.
I like to recomment rather Jennifer Bate,when you listen to her you notice how much she loves this music and it has a immediate effect on me.The recording is good but a bit too spacious but that is not really an issue.
Louis Thiry is another accomplished Messiaen performer,not complete but very worthwhile,in fact it was my introduction to the organ works of Messiaen and I immediate like it.
Hans-Olaf Erissson is another very good Messiaen organist and with very good sound.
My first choice is Jennifer.she steals my heart.:angel:


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Deleted..............


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

paulbest said:


> No
> He was talked about, strongly suggested, so I bought various cds, I have nothing in my collection now.
> Recently I learned he has affiliations with some church order.
> Discovery of this fact, now finally made sense *the missing piece to the puzzle* , as to why I don't care for any of his music.


He was a Catholic, and a church organist for his entire adult life. I don't connect with everything he wrote, but I do enjoy a number of pieces including the organ works.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

It is very rare, that I like some works by a composer and not others. With me its either all(few exceptions, like Ravel's Bolero,,which I do not consider music) or nothing.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

As with much modern music, it took me awhile to learn to enjoy Messiaen. The first work I enjoyed was the Turangalîla symphony. Mandryka mentioned that musicians who have played the work find it fun to perform. I find it wonderfully fun to hear. It's certainly one of my favorite modern symphonies. When I heard the Quartet for the End of Time, I enjoyed some of the movements but not others. Further listening has allowed me to find the entire work engaging. Along with the Turangalîla symphony, my other favorite work of Messiaen is his Vingt Regards sur l'enfant-Jésus. Parts are stunningly beautiful, but it's a powerful work throughout. I have not heard any organ music since, for whatever reason, I'm not a fan of the organ.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

It has been said you either love or hate his music. Personally, I'm indifferent. I tried several years ago to get into his music, getting ahold of a book that tried to explain his technique. But since he heard colors and I don't, I get frustrated, because I feel like I'm missing a big part of what he is conveying. I don't know what an orange chord is. 

It would be nice to have a YouTube video where someone annotates "This is an orange/blue chord" so I at least know what I'm supposed to be hearing.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> First impression: this is meaningless noise.
> Current opinion: this is sublime and brilliant music.


NEXT: John Cage! :lol:


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> NEXT: John Cage! :lol:


That conversion will probably wait.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> NEXT: John Cage! :lol:


Cage is brilliant. I know only his string quartets well. I did the same with them what I did with Schoenberg when first getting into him - I listened to the quartets over and over again, until I got it. It is great how the 4 instruments synchronize and desynchronize, there are also some lyrical passages. But I have not explored beyond the quartets yet.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Interesting that so many people are vouching for the love it or hate it theory. I feel pretty squarely in the middle, loving the general mood of the music but not quite connecting with the way it all flows together at times. I do remember liking the Quartet for the End of Time but being bothered by its almost circular narrative (within individual movements I mean) that never built to anything, and then I read someone point out that, yeah, "end of time," it's on purpose. It was neat to notice how that concept runs through his work, and to start listening for birds and such, but it didn't really increase my enjoyment. 

I do try to interpret the music as millionrainbows suggested, and feel like I succeed to some extent; I'll find myself enjoying these individual moments of sound in themselves for a bit, but the lack of dramatic tension just doesn't sustain me for 8+ minute long movements. Perhaps what I need is to leave it alone for a long time.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Don't know why and how (money), but I bought an LP with the Turangalia symphony, and was hooked. Will always be one of my favorite modern composers. A true original! I was also at a recital with Håkon Austbø playing "20 regards" and I remember that as the most fantastic concert.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

He's one of my very favorite composers. I gravitate a lot toward a certain kind of approach to music (Messiaen, Ohana, Scelsi, Ligeti, Takemitsu... or even Allan Holdsworth, strange comparison but not really). Stillness, otherworldy atmosphere, a sense of spirituality, complex harmonies and colors. I liked his music from the start, and I appreciated his music even more with the years.
A work not mentioned yet that I truly love: Harawi.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2019)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I started exploring Messiaen a few months ago. The impression I've gotten is that he's very difficult and accessible at the same time. Certain works like Hymn, Un Sourire, Poemes Pour Mi, the Demeurer dans l'Amour from Eclairs, and etc strike me as conventionally beautiful, and I wouldn't expect even a person whose primary knowledge of classical is film scores to struggle with appreciating them.
> 
> Then of course there is the weirder stuff. The pattern I'm noticing is that I'll be attracted to the irresistible textures at first, but eventually get bogged down in the repetition and deliberate aimlessness. His voice is so astonishingly unique that I can't help feeling he towers over his peers and anyone I've heard after him, but loving many of his pieces start to finish is still a work in progress for me.
> 
> What has been your experience with his music?


I've not explored his work fully, but I had no difficulty taking to _Turangalila _on first hearing, and as another member said, _Quartet for the End of Time_ bit by bit.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The Quartet for the End of Time, the Vingt Regards, Turangalila ... relatively early works that rank with "the greatest works ever" for me, especially the first two. Turangalîla is the work I quite liked at first and then came to hate (I found it a bit vulgar) and now love again! He went on to compose a huge number of other masterpieces (including Chronochromie and Des Canyons Aux Étoiles). I feel that for me there is so much more to explore ... and that of all the composers who I neglected for quite a while and then discovered he must surely be the greatest. Perhaps it is the enthusiasm of "new love" but at the moment I wonder if he wasn't the greatest French composer ever.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Setting apart his personal harmonic techniques and rhythmic innovations, Messiaen was also capable of the most beguiling simplicity. Take the last mvt. of the Quartet for the end of Time for example. The piano has just one deceptively simple idea throughout as accompaniment to the violins beautiful cantilena. A simple double hit on a chord, on the beat, with an accent at a very slow tempo - easy to play yet harder to perform.

Movement 5 is an emotionally and musically similar counterpart, utilising a simple semi quaver pulse in slow tempo. Eternity and immortality economically and beautifully uttered with timeless and almost naive (not pejoratively speaking) musical simplicity.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Anybody else like this piece? It's one of my favored Messiaen works.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Yes. For sure!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Very innovative composer, and uncompromising. I like how he created his own techniques and stuck through with them and not rely on convention. Compared to him, Boulez is a sell out.

Love Chronochromie. Quartet for End of Time not so much, a bit mushy for me.


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

at first, hard to understand

then got to think he's great, and bought lots of his CDs


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## Supersalmon (Feb 18, 2019)

For me it is the Catalogue d'oiseaux as well as the Turangalîla Symphony


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Supersalmon said:


> For me it is the Catalogue d'oiseaux as well as the Turangalîla Symphony


If you could say something to help me appreciate catalogue d'oiseaux I'd appreciate it.


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## Supersalmon (Feb 18, 2019)

Try the recent recording by Pierre-Laurent Aimard on the Pentatone label, just sit back listen and enjoy


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

Messiaen is one of the many modernists with whom I feel NO connection. That's OK, it means I can spend more time listening to the music I enjoy.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The first work I heard was the _Quartet for the End of Time_, and I didn't like it, actually I'm still not crazy about that work. I've come to recognize he was a very good composer though, I really like some of his music, particularly some of the organ works.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I have had a love/hate relationship with Messiaen for years, but I most definitely am leaning towards love now because I think I was being rather impatient with the music when first heard it. As time wore on, my patience with music has become much better and one needs to realize with Messiaen that instant gratification isn't going to be something that happens a lot in his music. What I started to realize that this composer has his own sound-world and is unlike anyone else I've ever heard, things started clicking even further with me. When listening to say Charles Koechlin's music, I begin to realize where Messiaen is coming from, although I'm not sure whether Koechlin was an influence on his music at all (Debussy was of course), but Messiaen is the missing link between Debussy and Boulez who, IMHO, are two of the most important French composers.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I very much enjoy a lot of his music. A few of my favourites include Poèmes pour Mi, Chronochromie, the Vingt Regards, and Des Canyons.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> I have had a love/hate relationship with Messiaen for years, but I most definitely am leaning towards love now because I think I was being rather impatient with the music when first heard it. As time wore on, my patience with music has become much better and one needs to realize with Messiaen that instant gratification isn't going to be something that happens a lot in his music. What I started to realize that this composer has his own sound-world and is unlike anyone else I've ever heard, things started clicking even further with me. When listening to say Charles Koechlin's music, I begin to realize where Messiaen is coming from, although I'm not sure whether Koechlin was an influence on his music at all (Debussy was of course), but Messiaen is the missing link between Debussy and Boulez who, IMHO, are two of the most important French composers.


Indeed, his sound world is incredibly idiosyncratic. From your point about Messiaen being a missing link between Debussy and Boulez, I think this can be unpacked further. Debussy was a major influence on Messiaen. If I recall correctly, Messiaen's music teacher back in school gifted him a score of Pelleas et Melisande – apparently this became an incredibly important piece for Messiaen, and he described the score as a "revelation." Debussy continued to be an important influence for Messiaen throughout his life.

Moving on to Boulez: Boulez was a student of Messiaen's at the Paris Conservatoire starting in 1945. There was a temporary falling out between Boulez and Messiaen following Boulez walking out on a partial performance of the Turangalila symphony – if I remember correctly, Boulez called it "Musique de bordel" (bordello music). They didn't speak to each other for a few years following this incident, but in time they made up, and were friends for the rest of their lives. 

Stockhausen also joined Messiaen's class in 1952. Other composers Messiaen taught include Tristan Murail, Gérard Grisey, Easley Blackwood, Qigang Chen, George Benjamin, Marius Constant, Betsy Jolas, and Alexander Goehr (among many others).


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## brucknerian (Dec 27, 2013)

Recently discovered Roger Muraro and can highly recommend his interpretations of Messian piano works such as Vingt regards. Check him out on YouTube.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

brucknerian said:


> Recently discovered Roger Muraro and can highly recommend his interpretations of Messian piano works such as Vingt regards. Check him out on YouTube.


Indeed – if I recall correctly, Muraro knew Messiaen personally and Messiaen thought his interpretations were extremely good.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The one work I simply cannot get through is his opera. I've made several attempts but I find it to be a terminal bore. YMMV?


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

A top 10 composer for me, and it's very difficult for me to put into words why beyond the fact that I find his utterly unique sound worlds immensely thrilling. I listen to a Messiaen piece and find myself wandering through it like one might wander through a safari on an alien planet, having no idea what they're witnessing but taking in the beauty and awe of the flora and fauna. I appreciate how his music ranges from the most dense, difficult, discordant imaginable; from the stunningly beautiful, evocative, emotional, and spiritual. I also appreciate how he neither kowtowed to any of the atonal dogmas, nor retreated into any kitschy pastiches of romanticism, but fearlessly forged his own path that was utterly contemporary but also completely original. In doing so I think he allowed himself to not just take inspiration from his technical innovations in compositional techniques and harmony, but everywhere, from the majesty of nature (Des canyons aux étoiles...) to the horrors of the 20th century (Quatuor pour la fin du temps) to his religious faith (too many to mention here, but Vingt Regards is perhaps my favorite 20th century work for solo piano). I also share his passion for bird song, and find it fascinating the lengths he went to record bird song, translate that to music, and then find places for them in his music either as a feature (such as the Sermon to the Birds in Francoise) or as the entire focus. 

Ultimately a magnificent composer in my estimation, and one of the few from the 20th century whom I listen to and find almost nothing lacking compared to the greats of the past.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

starthrower said:


> The one work I simply cannot get through is his opera. I've made several attempts but I find it to be a terminal bore. YMMV?


In terms of drama it is, indeed, boring; musically I find as rich as anything written in the 20th century and was something of a culmination of Messiaen's various techniques and styles. Here's what I wrote of it on my Top 69 Operas list: "Its action and pacing make Parsifal look like The Fast and the Furious, but Messiaen’s largely static tableaus based on events in the life of St. Francis is the culmination of his life’s musical innovations and obsessions. This isn’t an opera you experience for the drama, it’s one you experience for its spiritual and meditative tone, as well as for its overwhelming and mesmeric sound-world that dazzles with alien-like flora and fauna at every turn." 

I'll add that Messiaen's primary influence was Debussy's Pellease et Melisande, which makes sense when you consider that's another opera where the lack of external action is almost like a blank canvass for the richness of the music's expressions and evocations. I also find a similarity in their more speech and hymn-like approach to vocal writing as opposed to the more typical lyrical/song-like approach of traditional opera. In both cases, the orchestra is what carries the bulk of the musical substance. With Francois I could even see it being viable to listen to as three separate acts. It's structured in tableaus anyway rather than as a piece with continuous action, and while the leitmotifs do help to tie things together I don't think a huge amount would be lost by breaking up the experience across multiple days. 

Finally I'll say that it's a work that seems to get better the further back it gets in my memory. Despite lacking any action/drama to make it compelling as its playing, much later I find myself remembering subtle tonal things I felt during it that probably escaped me at the time. In that respect it reminds me of so many slow art-films that may not make a big impression in the moment, but because of their patience in allowing things to unfold at life's pace they tend to embed themselves more firmly in memory... or at least they do for me.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

starthrower said:


> The one work I simply cannot get through is his opera. I've made several attempts but I find it to be a terminal bore. YMMV?


You're not alone, although, in general, he is a difficult composer for me to love. I do like several of his works, but they mainly come from his earlier period. I must say, however, that I've positive steps in appreciating his music, but they are baby steps.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I recently got a new set of Messiaen: Vingt Regards sur l'enfant Jésus ,plaid by Bertrand Chamayou , he plays great but it's so much. I do not like the Turangalîla Symphony been there done that.


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