# Blind comparison - Pictures at an Exhibition



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Yet another in my occasional blind comparison series, this time the Ravel orchestration of Moussorgsky's _Pictures at an Exhibition_.

For those of you unfamiliar with these comparison threads, I am providing links to 4 different performances of _Pictures_ but without any indication as to who, what, when, where and why! The idea is for you to listen to them and offer your opinions without having preconceived biases about the performers. One common outcome is that some of the participants will find that their opinions are different from what they would have expected, and that can be a good thing. But _please_ do not feel intimidated, there are no correct answers, just listen, enjoy and say what appeals to you. Don't feel that you have to write some lengthy critique, but do so if you want. I have also added a poll to this thread so that those who don't feel like posting can anonymously show their preference.

The idea here is not to guess who did them, although go ahead if you want to do so, however if you do recognize the performance, please don't spoil it for others by posting the names (you can PM me if you wish.) All I will say is that none of them are any of the well-known recordings, I intentionally avoid them as too many people will immediately recognize them.

Depending on how many participate (and please let us know if you intend to), I will post the details by the end of the weekend. You can also PM me if you want to know the details before I post them.

One last comment, I realize that 4 performances maybe a bit much for some, if so then leave D for last.

A - pictures-a.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
B - pictures-b.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
C - pictures-c.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
D - pictures-d.mp3 - Shared with pCloud


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Should we post our impressions of each sample on this thread or just vote for our favorite? I posted my impression of sample A in the current listening thread. I am now listening to sample B.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

haziz said:


> Should we post our impressions of each sample on this thread or just vote for our favorite? I posted my impression of sample A in the current listening thread. I am now listening to sample B.


Please post your opinions here.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Listened to C first.

Sonically beautiful opening fanfare. 
Gnomus is sweet. (!!!)
Characterful woodwinds in the Castle. Beautiful, beautiful and beautiful.
Elegant children posing for the camera because their Victorian governess told them to.
Beautiful brass in a beautified ox cart.
Nice percussions with the chicks. Nice.
Fond memories of Samuel Goldenberg and Schmuÿle. Personality? What are you talking about? We only need fond memories.
Limoges is a lively place! Now we're talking.
Catacombae is a crime scene followed by a death scene from a noir film. Cool.
Baba Yaga is cool, just a bit too glorious and maybe a slight bit not spooky enough for my taste.
The great gate of Kiev announces itself unnaturally, as if the visitor is unsure what he/she is looking at at first... but things get better afterwards and certainly build up to a grand finish. I like the bells by the way.

At 31+ mins, I thought this would be fast. Timing wise it may be fast, but most passages before Limoges actually feel slow.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Sample "number" *A* of one of my favorite orchestral works:

Initial impression: Bland, polite, well played but ultimately did not hold my attention. It lacked the excitement and occasional "rudeness" that this music requires. The applause in the end was the only thing that revealed that this was a live recording.

I doubt that I will vote for this sample.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Sample "number" *B*:

Much more engaging recording packing more excitement as far as I am concerned. I may give it another listen since I was doing other things while listening to the first half. I did pay more attention later. Audience noise obvious throughout the recording but not too intrusive. Recorded sound could be a bit more rich, but is quite acceptable.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I like hearing it on the piano more than orchestrated so it is not my favourite orchestral piece or one that I have thought to have multiple performances of. I do like to hear the other orchestrated versions when I get a bit tired of the Ravel orchestration (which is great but perhaps not so Russian). 

Anyway, I've listened to the first three and definitely liked C the best. A is well played and has some interesting and attractively slightly different phrasing but I felt the pictures were under-characterised. B was better in this respect but a couple of times I felt it got a little lost in terms of the relationship of a couple of the pictures to the whole piece. C seemed to convince throughout and is, I think, as good as I have heard (a previous favourite has been Gergiev's from Vienna).

I will vote when I have heard D and post any thought I have on it.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

May I ask why Rush’s recording has not been included?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I also preferred C to the others. D was at the bottom - way too slow and uneventful.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Ludwig Schon said:


> May I ask why Rush’s recording has not been included?


No.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Thanks to Kiki I have to completely re-write my review - They were virtually identical... "Victorian governess" - Check - "Beautified ox-cart" - Check - "Samuel Goldenberg and Schmuÿle. " - Check - Damn it - An hour and 45 minutes wasted...

Anyway... My favorite - far and away - was "C" - I thought that this was everything that I would have wanted in both a recording and a performance of this particular work.

I love being able to hear the "space" between the orchestral sections - Being able to clearly distinguish the various components - the individual instruments themselves - of the string, woodwind, and brass sections.

The performance was perfectly paced - The best of the four - (Note: I've been able to listen to both A and C in their entirety and the first 15 minutes of B and D which I will get to this afternoon but from what I've heard, I don't think that I'm going to experience a revelation such that I would change my vote). I thought that this conductor (I have no clue who it might be) approached the work as a genuine "musician" trying to express the composer's intent whilst still adding a sense of individualized "coloring" - a blending of melody and rhythm - expressing a sort of "lyricism" or "poetry" rather than prose.

I apologize for the relative incoherence of this review but I'm forced to wing it thanks to Kiki ' "Death scene from a noir film" - "nice percussion with the chicks" - Damn it - Those were my lines...

I don't want to criticize the other three - I thought the recording on "B" wasn't quite what I would have liked it to be but I can see how the performance would appeal to some.

My second favorite would have been "A" and I would have selected that if "C" had not been an option.

The pacing on "D" wasn't to my taste but I can understand how someone might prefer that "stately cadence" and the gradual unfolding of the composition - Some people genuinely appreciate that luxurious approach. To each his own...

"To each his own..." Jaysus - reduced to hoary clichés... sigh... Next time that Kiki beats me to this thread I'm just voting and taking off.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

^ 

Are you my doppelgänger?! 😱

Seriously, I think we both have good taste, to say the obvious! 😎


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I have now listened to all four recordings and have a clear preference for B & C. 
I may sample both again if time permits in amongst other listening over the weekend to confirm my thoughts and decide on a fav'. 
Knowing Becca's ability to find live recordings that throw a curve ball that can confound the listener I will make no attempt to predict who the performers are, but will look forward to finding out how far off the mark my guesses are.

Thanks for putting the comparison together Becca.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Sample "number"* C*:

An engaging, exciting performance and with the best recording sound quality from a technical sound quality perspective. My favorite of the three I have so far listened to, followed by "number" B. If it wasn't for a fraction of a second of applause at the end, I would not have guessed that this is a live recording, particularly with the superb sound recording quality and the lack of audience noise.

On to the last recording.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Sample *D*:

The slow tempo and stately pace make me lose interest. A fairly unengaging performance and probably the one I like the least amongst the recordings. Audience noise confirms that this is also a live recording, but is not too intrusive.

I voted for both C (my favorite) and B which comes second in terms of preference.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Becca said:


> ...without any indication as to who, what, when, where and why! The idea is for you to listen to them and offer your opinions *without having preconceived biases about the performers*. One common outcome is that some of the participants will find that their opinions are different from what they would have expected, and that can be a good thing. But _please_ do not feel





Malx said:


> Knowing Becca's ability to find live recordings that throw a curve ball that *can confound the listener *I will make no attempt to predict who the performers are, but will look forward to finding out how far off the mark my guesses are.
> 
> *Thanks for putting the comparison together Becca.*


Finished listening to B and D and didn't hear anything that would have altered my original thoughts.

I'm home today and had the chance to look over the collection to see if I could draw up a short list - at least for selection "C" - I've narrowed it down to 12... maybe 13 conductors... Note to self - look up definition of "short list" it may not mean what I think it does. Kidding aside - I couldn't do it - I have a fairly significant collection but Becca's line about "without having preconceived biases about the performers" gave me all the proof that I needed that not only am I guilty of having "preconceived" biases, I also apparently have "conceived" and "post-conceived" biases to boot.

It is very - very - disconcerting to listen carefully - armed with decades of experience - only to discover that I just could not narrow the selections down to a list of 5 or even 10 names that I would be willing to bet my own money on. I was just all over the place - It was a mess - I'm glad that no one was there to see it.

Which begs the question - Do conductors truly have a unique "voice" - One that can consistently be heard over the course of their decades long careers? Without the "identifiers" - the album cover - the printed name on the label - the announcer's voice - Would any of us be able to consistently identify any conductor on a reliable basis with the exception of Eugene Ormandy? I couldn't...

I'm not particularly judgmental - I'll listen to anyone with an open mind and I can invariably find something of merit in everything I hear which means that I'm either remarkably open-minded or just too insipid to actually have an opinion.

People expect me to know these kinds of things - I expect me to know these kinds of things - I'm asked for advice - for recommendations - all the time - and I always have a ready answer - even when I don't actually know the actual answer - Because I know that often, making up an answer is just as good, and sometimes even better, than actually knowing the real answer.

I can see how someone would avoid this thread - It must be horrifying to state definitively that you love selection "B" or "C" or whatever and then find out that you just admitted to having a love affair with the conductor that you just spent 20 pages ranting about how much you loathe with every fiber of your being and never heard anything conducted by them that was ever worth hearing. That has to be embarrassing...

Not me... This may be a thread that angels fear to tread but this is one fool who wouldn't hesitate to rush in once again... I should probably edit that last statement - It doesn't "scan" as well as I hoped.

I realize now just how many times I confidently answered "Seiji Ozawa" when asked "Who's conducting/" - That's my "go to" answer when asked and I don't have a clue - Which is pretty much always.- "Seiji Ozawa" - Just say it "confidently" and no one will be the wiser.

This was hard work - not the listening and not the writing - The really hard work was creating the thread and let me add my thanks for having done so.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ I think that you perfectly encapsulated the value of these blind comparisons, thank you!

I know that some are afraid to offer an opinion just in case it 'backfires', hence the poll so that anonymous opinions can be give. 

FWIW, I will readily admit to a number of personal biases, but fortunately mine are always valid, not so with others 😇

P.S. I would love to know who your 12 (or 13) are, go ahead and PM me with them.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

On to A next.

A pensive promenader who is perhaps a bit reluctant to enter the gallery?
Vivid portrait of a pretentious Gnomus pretending to be a pretender but is in fact quite harmless. You know, Hollywood villain, rather cute.
Nice atmosphere around the castle. Nice woodwind. 
These are not "real" children. They are an adult's beautified, idealized portrait of children.
Poor ox. Pulling its cart into the distance, it will work hard until it cannot anymore.
Poor chicks. Tumbling clumsily and slowly.
Nice contrast of personalities between Samuel Goldenberg and Schmuÿle.
Lively Limoges market, but, aren't markets like this everywhere? There is nothing special really.
The promenader is obviously feeling stunned when entering Catacombs.
Atmospheric hut, but Baba-Yaga only pretends to be scary. Acting tough is a way of self-defense in this crazy world.
Sometimes I think it's all in Mussorgsky's head only (and Ravel's), because that painting he saw of the great gate of Kiev looks more like a gate built on a budget for a country town. This performance certainly sounds like that. Nevermind the painting. the grandeur is all in Mussorgsky's head.

There are a few hiccups in the playing, but there is less show-off moments than C.

Overall A is way too slow for my likings, although the slowness works OK in some paintings.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

OK, D is rather dull. I don't mind slowness per se - Celibidache's Munich recording (also not a favourite of mine) is two minutes longer but has more coherence, life and atmosphere - but I cannot guess what the conductor on D was going for with that one. So for me C is the choice and none of the others impressed me that much. I did like C a lot, though.

When will we hear who did which of these.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> When will we hear who did which of these.


Tomorrow as not everyone has had their say yet. You can request the details via PM if you wish.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Lastly, B.

Heavy handed opening Promenade.
Charismatic Gnomus. Cool.
Atmospheric castle. Awesome.
Impressionistic scene with the children. Very nicely portraited.
The scene with the ox pulling its cart seems to come right out of an epic history film.
I like these chicks. They are healthy and kicking. I suspect those from A & C come from illegal inhumane intensive farming.
However, Samuel Goldenberg and Schmuÿle are underwhelming and things drag here.
Better tempo in Limoges. Vibrant and cool.
Fake scariness in the Catacombae. The promenader is trying to be polite by acting shocked. In fact, he is not, at all. I don't like this attitude.
Baba-Yaga is awesome here! 
The great gate of Kiev is grand, as expected.

The Promenade interludes throughout the piece also stand out very well each having a subtly distinct mood.

All three are slow (yes, even C, because it _feels_ slow), but I tend to tolerate the slowness of B because overall it offers, for most paintings, more character and urgency than A & C.

I will pass on D.

My ranking: B > C >>> A.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Is anyone else planning on participating?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

After relistening to B & C to maybe establish which is my preferred account I have arrived at the conclusion that I chose both!!
I reckon C maybe the safer bet as an overall recommedation but something about B indicates a bit more character in the gallery. I'm not going to try and split them but I bet the conductor with the more characterful performance is someone I would normally overlook.

Looking forward to the reveal Becca.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is the reveal, all are from live performances...

A - Oslo Philharmonic / Semyon Bychkov (2022)
B - Simon Bolivar Youth Orch / Gustavo Dudamel (2008- Salzburg)
C - New York Philharmonic / Alan Gilbert (CD of a 2011/2012 season concert)
D - London Symphony / Sergiu Celibidache (1980)

Thanks to everyone who took part, you make it worth the effort.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Great. Thanks, Becca. I think that might be the first recording of Gilbert that I have particularly enjoyed! D shows that Celibidache was faster before he went to Munich! That recording must have caught him mid-way on his route to developing the very slow Munich style that he is mostly known for these days.

That was fun: thanks!


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Whilst I don't always have the time to take part in Becca's Blind Comparisons when I do I always end up being amused/confounded by a conclusion I have reached.
As I suggested in my post above selection 'B' which I felt had a bit of character was by an orchestra and conductor I probably would not have sought out - when will I ever learn!

Thanks again Becca for another salutary lesson.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Indeed an interesting experiment, as always from Becca. And as always very revealing! Thanks for setting it up, and for all those who commented. I apologize that I did not. 

I did find it interesting that a consensus formed around B & C rather than A or D. And I wonder how much that was compelled by group think.

The fact is, no matter how much a certain kind of enthusiast rants and raves at length about this or that recording, rather like "audiophiles" with power cables and interconnects, in a proper blind test that same enthusiast is highly unlikely to be able to reliably identify (or sometimes even distinguish between) different versions, especially if the recordings are otherwise at least relatively new to them, whether or not the artists' other work is very familiar. Without effort, our own biases always⁠—and I do mean always⁠—intervene.

It's why I often push back on language that exaggerates the quality of one recording at the expense of others. Objectively speaking, the quality of almost all professionally-made recordings is _extremely_ high, nearly indistinguishable in quality despite all of the hyper-heated rhetoric, and clichés such as how one specific recording is so great it renders all others irrelevant is totally at odds with what music is as an art form. 

The subjective taste elements that do distinguish great recordings (which is most of them) are just that: totally subjective. As such, the over flowery praise or harshly excoriating language we see often is really rather pathetic, if you think about it. Critics who thoughtlessly employ either, but especially the latter, and likewise either avoid objective observations or in fact show dishonesty about what is objectively true about the item being reviewed , are best avoided. They are charlatans. 

Yet, you see this constantly. Especially when a new recording or recorded cycle gets a lot of attention and praise, there will be this very tiresome pushback and misuse of metaphors about the "Emporer's New Clothes", but eventually that recording or recorded cycle usually finds broad acceptance. I've seen this pattern over and over again. Today's pseudo-controversial "young Turks" are tomorrow's "revered masters." 

It's not that there are never truly bad recordings; there are. But they are far more rare than one might think from reading critics, or online forums such as Talk Classical. 

Anyway, to not be biased is an active skill, never passive.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Yea verily!!



Knorf said:


> The fact is, no matter how much a certain kind of enthusiast rants and raves at length about this or that recording ... in a proper blind test that same enthusiast is highly unlikely to be able to reliably identify (or sometimes even distinguish between) different versions, especially if the recordings are otherwise at least relatively new to them, whether or not the artists' other work is very familiar. Without effort, our own biases always⁠—and I do mean always⁠—intervene.


There is one English conductor who often comes in for negative comments particularly at TC, and yet it is interesting just how many very positive opinions get expressed when this conductor's performances have been included in one of these comparisons.

FWIW, I know that I can be guilty of pre-conceived notions ... Ormandy and Mehta come immediately to mind. I can easily rationalize them both, and yet rationalization is exactly what it is.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

P.S. I was quite struck by how many liked C, I didn't quite expect that. I admit that I did include D more out of perversity, also because it was with the LSO, the alternative being a live Svetlanov/RPO/Proms.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Thanks Becca, that was enjoyable!

I voted for B only. Nice to know that it is Dudamel, whom I think is a real deal, even though he is not exactly a favourite stick waver of mine. Not a perfect Pictures here, but I do think most parts of it are very good.

I did find the final third of Alan Gilbert's Pictures rather decent. However, how he was able to make the whole thing feel so slow despite a relatively fast tempo is beyond my comprehension. Apart from that it is all beautiful, beautiful and beautiful. I am afraid this recording will only reinforce my personal policy of proactively avoiding his recordings.

I do not know what more to say about Bychkov’s Pictures. I never thought of him as fiery anyway, and he certainly was not in A.

Have to admit when I saw the ultra-long duration of D, an alarm bell rang and I did not want to listen to it, therefore I did not.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This article entitled "Why Everyone Hears the Same Sounds Differently" is worth at least a glance -









Why Everyone Hears The Same Sounds Differently - KnowledgeNuts


It turns out that the almost endless arguments over the merits of a certain song or certain band might all stem from something physical. Different people really do sometimes hear the same sounds in entirely different ways. Even the smallest differences in our individual skull structure or bone...




knowledgenuts.com





Selected quote -

"When the inner ear receives sounds, it triggers a reaction from the different brain cells that are responsible for transmitting the information to your brain. That triggering forms different types of patterns that, in turn, touch different parts of the brain, explaining why we associate certain sounds with certain memories and feelings.

But we’re still not sure if the process works the same in everyone. The mechanics might be the same, but researchers from the University at Oxford have found that *ferrets equipped with auditory implants react differently to the same sounds*. The ferrets’ brain activity seems to show that they’re experiencing the sounds slightly differently from each other."

The ferrets unanimously agreed that they unequivocally loathed Simon Rattle with every fiber of their collective beings with comments running the gamut from "twee" to "overly fussy" to "as finicky as a kitten". However, upon being subjected to a blind listening comparison of Ravel's L'Enfant et les Sortilèges / Ma mère l'Oye the ferrets overwhelmingly preferred selection C) Rattle with the Berliner Philharmoniker, When confronted with the results, the ferrets, alternately horrified and embarrassed responded with a rather shrill shriek - "(Blank) Simon Rattle!" and proceeded to collectively run over a cliff thus plunging to their death. It was only halfway down before they realized that it wasn't ferrets who run over cliffs and plunge to their death, it was actually lemmings. By then it was just a little too late for regrets... to put it mildly.

,


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

A short list of stuff I used to dismiss but at some point realized I was missing out on some wonderful listening:

Karajan's digital Beethoven & Brahms.
Most stuff conducted by Jansons or Haitink.
Almost anything conducted by Dohnányi, Mehta, Ozawa*.

As with most lessons, I have had to learn this particular lesson the hard way. I'm still struggling with Dudamel and Rattle, I admit. Also Masur. But obviously a lot of people think they're great and it would be highly shortsighted of me to dismiss them.

*To be fair, I still find a lot of Ozawa's recordings to be not very interesting. But I did learn that writing him off entirely is a big mistake! Celibidache for me is right out, though. No thanks. YMMV


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I also used to avoid Rattle after finding much of his work overly fussy. But I am now finding that his later Berlin and post-Berlin recordings often work very well for me. It may have been one of these blind tastings that gave me the opportunity to listen again to Rattle. I'm glad I did.

As for Celibidache, most members here dislike his later work - it brings out their inner Hurwitz! - but a few of us love it. Marmite is far less controversial. As a big fan of much of what he recorded in Munich I am often surprised at the reactions of those who dislike him. Yes, he is slow, but to me he has a wonderfully light touch when needed and is a master at building powerful moments. I am left wondering if those who find him dull have actually given him a chance. Those who find him perverse, however, are probably reacting to the same things that I like!

For this piece (Pictures), however, I don't greatly enjoy his Munich recording or the one Becca offered us here.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Knorf said:


> I did find it interesting that a consensus formed around B & C rather than A or D. And I wonder how much that was compelled by group think.


Did you listen to the samples? They are all quite different and it was clear before anyone had posted that A and D offered far less than B and C. I don't think group think is needed to explain the preferences given. 



Knorf said:


> The fact is, no matter how much a certain kind of enthusiast rants and raves at length about this or that recording, rather like "audiophiles" with power cables and interconnects, in a proper blind test that same enthusiast is highly unlikely to be able to reliably identify (or sometimes even distinguish between) different versions, especially if the recordings are otherwise at least relatively new to them, whether or not the artists' other work is very familiar. Without effort, our own biases always⁠—and I do mean always⁠—intervene.
> 
> ........
> 
> ...


Agreed!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Becca said:


> ^^ Yea verily!!
> 
> There is one English conductor who often comes in for negative comments particularly at TC, and yet it is interesting just how many very positive opinions get expressed when this conductor's performances have been included in one of these comparisons.


Is this Rattle? Or who?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> Is this Rattle? Or who?


Yes.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

I'm afraid I didn't have time to listen to all of these, though in the end I did decide to download them and sample some of the most important points to try and get an idea -- so not totally fair. B was clearly the most characterful for me -- in fact the "Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks" was a stroke of genius by Dudamel -- just as shame he tried to make the "Market" an exclusively chicken one as well. A and C were mostly in different ways fairly dull. D -- well that was a bit unfair as I don't know what possessed Celi to take on something like this though it wasn't without its merits. Why didn't you in fact include the Svetlanov which would have won quite comfortably even with his bizarre gallop for the first Promenade?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

dko22 said:


> I'm afraid I didn't have time to listen to all of these, though in the end I did decide to download them and sample some of the most important points to try and get an idea -- so not totally fair. B was clearly the most characterful for me -- in fact the "Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks" was a stroke of genius by Dudamel -- just as shame he tried to make the "Market" an exclusively chicken one as well. A and C were mostly in different ways fairly dull. D -- well that was a bit unfair as I don't know what possessed Celi to take on something like this though it wasn't without its merits. *Why didn't you in fact include the Svetlanov which would have won quite comfortably even with his bizarre gallop for the first Promenade?*


Given how much fascination there is with him, I wanted to see how folks would react to a Celi performance without knowing that it was him. I chose the LSO as I thought that those who liked him would no the MPO performance.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

For the next comparison, whenever I feel in the mood, I am considering doing Petrushka ... any comments?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Two: use just one movement or shorter excerpts! As much as I like Pictures, there's no way I had time to really listen to four different versions.

The other: it is amazing how well the Simon Bolivar YOUTH orchestra played; they can put many professional orchestras to shame. Dudamel is still controversial, and to be honest his DG recording of Pictures in Vienna is dreadful. And that Nutcracker from LA was lousy. I heard him do a Mahler 1st live that was just wrong in so many ways. He was promoted too fast at too young of an age. Other wunderkind conductors were the real deal: Zubin Mehta, Eduardo Mata, Michael Tilson Thomas, James Levine.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> For the next comparison, whenever I feel in the mood, I am considering doing Petrushka ... any comments?


What happened to Boléro? Weren't we going to do it?

Seriously, Petruska is fine.

But since we have done Stravinsky before, how about other composers?

Sticking with the central repertoire, 

How about a well-known Dvořák/Schubert/Schumann/Tchaikovsky symphony?

Or a Wagner/Rossini overture?

How about Richard Strauss?

But Petruska is fine.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Some good ideas there ... the Tchaikovsky 7th ... Schubert 10th ... there is a Bolero with Alondra de la Parra ...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

... or maybe the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra...


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Time will be a factor for many I suspect - so a work that runs to about 20-25 mins may receive a wider uptake. On a personal level I like the idea of more central repertoire which questions my preferences - it is good to have long held beliefs challenged.
I'm not so keen on excerpt/excerpts as they may not show the conductors whole conception of the work.
Just my tuppence worth!


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> Given how much fascination there is with him, I wanted to see how folks would react to a Celi performance without knowing that it was him. I chose the LSO as I thought that those who liked him would no the MPO performance.


a perfectly reasonable justification!


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> Some good ideas there ... the Tchaikovsky 7th ... Schubert 10th ... there is a Bolero with Alondra de la Parra ...


I think you'd struggle to get four recordings of Tchaik 7 although there is some alternative to the Ormandy  .


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> ... or maybe the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra...


Sounds good!


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> Some good ideas there ... the Tchaikovsky 7th ... Schubert 10th ... there is a Bolero with Alondra de la Parra ...


Out of curiosity, I checked with wiki - Alondra de la Parra is only 42 years old, still rather young as a conductor. Therefore, how dare she played this Boléro on youtube at under 15 mins? Young conductors must drag, no, express it expressively to at least 18, 19 even 20 mins. They have the great responsibility to carry the torch of slow-everything-down-no-matter-what, right? Therefore shorter than 15 mins is totally out of order!!! 

Seriously, since I could hear, even see, the celesta, I am happy with this Boléro... 

Really seriously, it is a darn fine performance. Although tempo is moderate, more importantly she did not mess with it along the way, and I like that.

Oh, never mind the funky dancers and the ambient lighting. Distracting? Don't look at them then. In fact I found them far less intrusive than Abbado's dimming light show and his pretentious "freeze, don't applause" antics in his Lucerne Mahler #9. 

Taking about antics, I think Currentzis has now got a worthy challenger, although he has had his hair cut some time ago so he is arguably less competitive these days.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ I don't know what it is about her ... after Queensland she seems to only be working with lower rank European orchestras.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Have to confess I have not been following her. Upon listening to some of her other performances on youtube, I like her graceful Tchaikovsky #5, but not so much a rather subdued Prokofiev #1. She does not seem to have had any real breakthrough yet, but who knows.


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