# Josquin Desprez the Mozart of early rennaissance, and Gombert for late renaissance!



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Josquin , was good at, fabuleous motets, french chanson genra and lithurgic music like missa.When he pop up on a compilation im always fascinated one of my favorite motets of Josquin is memor verbo esti tui, this is amazing i.e, in Missa Pangue Lingua and Hercules Dux Ferrariae i.e once again.

But i got to admit something if Josquin is Mozart of the past than Machaut is Handel of the past.What are my guideline for choosng them , they were prolific and made gems.

If we talk about late renaissance i would says two name Gesualdo(of course) But officially moreso Gombert is smusic recognisable is blue print rich polyphony great mass, great motets & french chanson.

What is your view on this, what your cue, opinion, do you agree?


Why did i pick Mozart as genieous of genieous well because he was acclaim by general classical listener as first runner up , what about Handel well same thing.

I hope this post is interresting has a purpose that readers would enjoy.

:tiphat:


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## Musica Enchiriadis (Mar 28, 2017)

Yes, Josquin is one of the greats genius of the Renaissance !

The sonorities are beautifull, of course, but he is also a genius of abstraction (long before the twentieth century's composers).

The are lots of canonic "tour de force" in his masses, and his muscial skill has few equals in the composers of the XVth century.

The Agnus Dei of the _Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales_ exemplified the subtil use of mensuaration signs to symbolize the "Trinitas" : thre voices in one !









I've written a short Wordpress paper about that question, with lots of pictures and pieces by Josquin. (It's in French, but the texte is short  ). If it could be useful for someone...

https://musicaenchiriadis.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/canon-mensuraliste/


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I keep wondering whether I should buy The Josquin Companion -- it's very expensive, but I suspect it's very good on symbolism. 


I find Gombert more challenging, especially the late music, i e the magnificats. Maybe we're all in need of better performances.


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## Musica Enchiriadis (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I keep wondering whether I should buy The Josquin Companion -- it's very expensive, but I suspect it's very good on symbolism.


Yes, it's a good book ! 
But on symbolism in Josquin's music, Willem Elders is the best ! 

ELDERS William, Symbolic Scores : Studies in the Music of the Renaissance, Brill, 1994.

https://books.google.ch/books?id=UFFJb3uNxdUC&dq=symbolic+score+josquin&hl=fr&source=gbs_navlinks_s


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## Musica Enchiriadis (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I find Gombert more challenging, especially the late music, i e the magnificats. Maybe we're all in need of better performances.


Gombert is a master, a genius too ! Especially his melancholic music for Marguerite d'Autriche !

Paul van Nevel (and Huelgas Ensemble) has done a marvelous version of Magnificats.


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## Timothy (Jul 19, 2017)

If Josquin is to be compared to anyone, then it's Mahler


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Musica Enchiriadis said:


> Yes, it's a good book !
> But on symbolism in Josquin's music, Willem Elders is the best !
> 
> ELDERS William, Symbolic Scores : Studies in the Music of the Renaissance, Brill, 1994.
> ...


Thanks for this reference, which I'll try to get hold of.

I wonder when symbolic music stopped being written. I've seen studies of Bach which find symbolism encoded, the cross especially, and the idea that canonic forms are a metaphor for Gods law. And I believe there are numerological ideas. But I've never seen similar studies for earlier baroque composers - it's hard to imagine Bach was the only one. Anyway I doubt that Bach's symbolism was as rich as what I'm told exists in the Josquin Stabat Mater, which a friend of mine tells me is a sort of high point for symbolic coding.

I am looking forward to reading your blog.



Musica Enchiriadis said:


> Gombert is a master, a genius too ! Especially his melancholic music for Marguerite d'Autriche !
> 
> Paul van Nevel (and Huelgas Ensemble) has done a marvelous version of Magnificats.


Yes I like that recording as you know (I've just remembered that we've met before!)

It's Peter Philips's recording I've never warmed to. Maybe I should give it another try.


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## Musica Enchiriadis (Mar 28, 2017)

Another symbolic Masterwork by Josquin : Proch Dolor / Pie Jesu, for 7 voices.

7 voices : for sadness 
Black void notation : for sadness and mourning
Cantus Firmus : _Pie Jesu Domine, dona eis requeim_ (from gregorian "Missa pro defunctis")
Triple canon in Cantus Firmus : _Celum terra mariaque Succurrite pio_ Heaven, earth and seas, help the pious man.

Canonic voices : 








Original score (Brussel 228) :









Such a beautiful deploration !


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's a fabulous performance of Proch Dolor by Michael Procter here









Have you seen this Josquin discography?

http://plainsong.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Josquin-des-Prez-Discography.pdf

It looks like its authorship is disputed, but I've not investigated it.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2017)

For years the Tallis scholars were my absolute favorits,that is changed.When I heard for the first time the Clerks Group I did not like it,that is changed completely.
Paul van nevel called the way British choirs sing is like steel wire singing.
I understand what he is saying and the Gombert cd above could not be sung in this way by the Tallis scholars.
Their Gesualdo and John Sheppard recording are utterly beautiful.( and many others)
van Nevel is surely less pale


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Is this the same as the Gombert CD we all know and love? Is there a book? Does he talk about his methods (especially vis-à-vis creating dissonance)?









(What do the assembled Gombertophiles think about Jeremy Summerly's Magnificat?)


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## Musica Enchiriadis (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Is this the same as the Gombert CD we all know and love? Is there a book?
> View attachment 98941


No, it's not the same. The book contains a recording of the chanson "Je prens congié", as for the CD "Music from the court of Charles V". But the others pieces are different.



Mandryka said:


> Does he talk about his methods (especially vis-à-vis creating dissonance)?


No, it's a book for the general public...

But there is a film with/by Paul van Nevel, where he talks about technical things and sound space of the Renaissance. "Chants et soupirs des Renaissants selon Paul Van Nevel", 52', 2001.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Thank you for investigating this, I may treat myself to the recording.


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