# What do major and minor stand for?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I usually see in sonatas "c major" "e minor" and so on; what do major and minor, as well as a letters, mean? Do they have anythimng to do with octaves (from one do to the other)?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Key signature and mode.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

There's a lot more to answering that question than a simple answer can provide. It gets to keys, key areas, key characters, and why tonal music "works" at all. You need to do some serious reading about music, and have a keyboard handy when you do.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Key signature and mode.


You mean the small black ones compared to the bugger white?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> You mean the small black ones compared to the bugger white?


A bit complicated to explain using black and white note terminology. It's based on a tonal system of notes and scales.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Speaking very broadly, major is brighter in mood and minor is darker; the use of both covers a lot of ground in mood and emotions. The key signature signifies what fundamental scale is being used, and the changes in the key signature within a work indicates the change of the fundamental scale. Works composed in minor keys tend to be a little bit more thoughtful, introspective and darker, but there are many exceptions to this rule. Major scales are related more to happiness and positive emotions, but again, there could be many exceptions to this rule because a work may not be clearly happy or clearly sad or darker in mood. These are broad generalities but many examples could be found that illustrate the broad overall principals and tendencies. The main difference between the two is that the major scale has a major third interval from the root of the scale, and the minor scale has a minor third interval with the other differences in the scale, as there are different types of minor scales. But all minor scales have a minor third interval, and all major scales have a major third interval. The difference can be heard in specific examples: https://www.musical-u.com/learn/major-minor-keys/


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I usually see in sonatas "c major" "e minor" and so on; what do major and minor, as well as a letters, mean? Do they have anythimng to do with octaves (from one do to the other)?


The first letter tells you the 'key' of the piece and specifically refers to the first 'tonic' of the scale. In 'C' major the notes are: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. Generally, the piece will begin and finish on the tonic - in this case a C major chord.

C minor - either:

a) moving up C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B, C moving down: C, Bb, Ab, G, F, Eb, D, C.
b) moving up C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C moving down: C, B, Ab, G, F, Eb, D, C.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

Go to a keyboard, find "A" and play all the white keys from there up to the next "A". That will be how a minor sounds in its natural form. Find "C" and play the white keys up to the next "C". That will be C major. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E6DE111F25B69695FA15E6DE111F25B6969&FORM=VIRE


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2019)

1. There are 12 "major" keys and 12 "minor" keys, hence 24 in total. For the word "key" is sometimes substituted "scale". They are the same thing.

2. A "key" is the scale of notes around which a piece of music mainly revolves. For example, a work in the key of C major revolves around the seven notes of the C major scale. These notes are: C, D, E, F, G, A, B.

3. Some keys include both black and white notes on the keyboard, e.g. the key of D minor includes the notes: D, E, F, G, A, B_b_, C.

4. Unless otherwise stated, the key used is always a "major" key. For example a piece of music in D is in D major. It is sometimes called "D major", e.g _Violin Sonata No 4 in D major_. By contrast, a work that is based on a minor key will always have a "_b_" or a "#" after its name, e.g. _Cello Concerto in Ab_, meaning the work is in A flat.

5. Just because a work is based on a particular key doesn't mean that notes outside the chosen scale cannot be used. Outside notes sometimes are used but most of the notes actually used will centre around those of the named key, and in particular its central key, called the "tonic". With a bit of listening practice, it's possible to determine the key of a piece of music.

6. Any of the 24 different scales "scales" can be used to write a piece of music. The choice is at the discretion of the composer. The choice of key is determined by the general kind of sound the composer wants to create. Generally speaking, works in the major keys are bright and cheerful sounding. Works in a minor key are generally of the sadder, more gloomy, melancholic and inward-looking variety. Some Masses are written in a minor key.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Major and minor don't stand for anything anymore. There once was a time when they had the courage of their convictions and key signatures. But then, their roots became inverted. They were pushed around, flattened, diminished and well modulated. Chromatic notes from neighboring keys moved in and by their presence started to erode the feeling of home. As I've always said, once you let the chromatic notes in, there goes the whole neighbourhood. Soon, enough chromatic notes were let in that major and minor lost their meaning and identity. Why, if every note was "equal" how could one assume dominance? These new chromatic notes didn't belong there. They had no feeling toward home or stability. Major and minor needed a tonic to remedy this situation. And so, they retreated. They fled from the classical stage. Broadway turned up its nose. Even the seediest jazz musicians with terrible reputations shunned them. And then, the final blow - British pop musicians defeated major and minor using nothing more than a flattened seventh. It looked like the end for major and minor.... But lo, a miracle, they were saved when a man with a twang showed up and said. "Folks, where I come from we don't take kindly to chromatic notes. They can go back to the keys they came from. Come move south of the Schoenberg Line and help me get back my girl, my dog, and my pickup - they all left me in one day." Excited that they could once again be put to the best use, major and minor pulled up signatures and moved to the land of Twang. They built a lovely, but boring traditional home, where only one note is dominate. And the signs on their front lawn tell the story, " Post No Ghost Chords " and "Modulators will be prosecuted." Major and minor are again in tune, happily ever after!

The end.

Oh, wait! I didn't answer the question, "What do major and minor stand for?" That's easy! They're okay morally with keeping baby chromatic notes in john cages.:tiphat:


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Partita said:


> 4. Unless otherwise stated, the key used is always a "major" key. For example a piece of music in D is in D major. It is sometimes called "D major", e.g _Violin Sonata No 4 in D major_. By contrast, *a work that is based on a minor key will always have a "b" or a "#" after its name, e.g. Cello Concerto in Ab, meaning the work is in A flat*.


Mostly good info Partita, but this is not correct. Minor keys will have an 'm' beside them, for example 'Am' meaning 'A minor'. Whether a key is sharp (#) or flat (b) has nothing to do with it being major or minor.



Partita said:


> With a bit of listening practice, it's possible to determine the key of a piece of music.


With a bit of listening practice many can differentiate major from minor, (because of all the chromaticism this can get more difficult in much post-Classical era music) but unless one has perfect pitch most people will not be able to determine the exact key of a piece of music simply by listening. They would have to reference an instrument while listening to the music to find the pitch of the tonic.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

As has been stated the major and minor designation at the beginning of a piece of music is the key in which it begins -- the first note. This is designated on the left hand top of the first page of the score by a key marking that usually includes a number of sharp or flat indicators. Any non-12 tone or traditional piece of music with no key indicator begins in the key of C.

Beethoven's favorite key was C minor which is marked in the score with one flat, a sort of tilted _b_. Among other things his 5th symphony begins on that note. If you buy a pitch pipe and blow C minor you can hum the first few notes of the symphony in key. Using a pitch pipe is the easiest way for a non-musician to learn notes.

However, most classical music, and many pieces of music with any sophistication and/or complexity, changes key during the music. This is called modulation; it changes the tenor and sound of the music and enables the composer to alter the musical message. This will usually happen a couple times in every movement of any Romantic-era symphony or concerto.

In sonata format music is supposed to reconcile to the _tonic_ -- the original key -- during recapitulation or at the coda, places where all the ideas of a movement are tied up leading to the finale.

In the past century there has been a lot of classical music written to the 12-tone scale (the "chromatic" scale of 8 notes plus the four incidentals [sharps, flats or naturals] in the scale) or otherwise that do not have a key signature on the score. Still performers have to begin somewhere and they follow the scale or the 12 tone scale as they play along.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

larold said:


> Beethoven's favorite key was C minor which is marked in the score with one flat, a sort of tilted _b_.


The key of C minor has three flats in the key signature. Though perhaps you are thinking of a C minor chord in isolation, which has one flat. But since you've used the word 'key' it sounds as though you are referring to a key signature.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

larold said:


> Beethoven's favorite key was C minor which is marked in the score with one flat, a sort of tilted _b_. Among other things his 5th symphony begins on that note.


Uh, no. It starts on the pitch "G" (3 G's then down to an E-flat)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> You mean the small black ones compared to the *bugger* white?


read out of context this extract could cause offence


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

tdc said:


> Mostly good info Partita, but this is not correct. Minor keys will have an 'm' beside them, for example 'Am' meaning 'A minor'. Whether a key is sharp (#) or flat (b) has nothing to do with it being major or minor.
> 
> With a bit of listening practice many can differentiate major from minor, (because of all the chromaticism this can get more difficult in much post-Classical era music) but unless one has perfect pitch most people will not be able to determine the exact key of a piece of music simply by listening. They would have to reference an instrument while listening to the music to find the pitch of the tonic.


Mmm, you really know your stuff.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I usually see in sonatas "c major" "e minor" and so on; what do major and minor, as well as a letters, mean? Do they have anythimng to do with octaves (from one do to the other)?


It is so insanely complex that I just accept the fact that these names are included in various musical works and don't try to understand it. But I think it has something to do with the way our scale is not evenly distributed as clearly shown by the distribution of black keys on a piano. That mixed with starting point make for some weird results that end up making beautiful music that no other musical paradigm in the world can equal (I made this last part up and it may be baloney but it was fun to say it). More power to you if you can understand it and become one of the musical Illuminati.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It's all fairly logical but there's so much information to learn, memorize, and recognize by ear if you're going to be a musician. C Major is the most straightforward scale as there are no sharps or flats. Just remember there is a half step interval between B and C, and E and F. It gets more complicated with other scales. And you don't need to know any of this to enjoy music.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

stomanek said:


> Mmm, you really know your stuff.


I know some stuff, but certainly still have some gaps in my knowledge of things like composition and orchestration.



Fritz Kobus said:


> It is so insanely complex that I just accept the fact that these names are included in various musical works and don't try to understand it. But I think it has something to do with the way our scale is not evenly distributed as clearly shown by the distribution of black keys on a piano. That mixed with starting point make for some weird results that end up making beautiful music that no other musical paradigm in the world can equal (I made this last part up and it may be baloney but it was fun to say it). More power to you if you can understand it and become one of the musical Illuminati.


For me learning has been a gradual process that has been greatly supported by playing a musical instrument. Knowing the instrument gives me a context for understanding musical concepts. If I didn't play an instrument I would find it quite difficult understanding much of this information.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

tdc said:


> I know some stuff, but certainly still have some gaps in my knowledge of things like composition and orchestration.
> 
> For me learning has been a gradual process that has been greatly supported by playing a musical instrument. Knowing the instrument gives me a context for understanding musical concepts. If I didn't play an instrument I would find it quite difficult understanding much of this information.


I got stuck at an explanation of the tonic

which I mistakenly thought was a drink


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2019)

I suspect that the discussion has involved some quite complex issues that many ordinary listeners wouldn't have the slightest interest in, let alone have any chance of understanding.

I don't wish to complicate things any further, but perhaps something along the following simpler lines might help:


There are 12 notes in the chromatic scale.
Traditionally, only 7 of these notes at a time were used in any piece of music. This was to create music that sounded generally pleasing to the ear of many people, as the use of 7 seemed to work well together. (Occasionally, some notes outside the 7 would be used as well).
The exact choice of which 7 notes was dictated by the choice of the composer according to how he wanted the music to sound, whether bright or sad. 
If the composer wanted a bright, cheerful sound he would select one of 12 "major" keys. For a more melancholic sound one of 12 "minor" keys would be selected.
The first note of the 7 actually used determines the identity of its "key", e.g. C or A etc. The most often used note in the work is the one at the beginning of the sequence.
Each of these 24 different keys thus arising involves a different combination of 7 notes chosen from the 12.
Music that was written in the above way is called "tonal".
In the late 19th C and 20th C a lot of music was written that used all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, instead of just 7 as was the norm previously. This kind of music is called "atonal", and does not have any description involving "major" and "minor". It sounds less mellifluous than tonal music.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Dear C. W. S-Flakes,

I have mentioned this previously in response to your posts, but again, why don't you read a few basic readers in music theory and music history available at any public library. You would find this immensely enlightening I am sure. Not least of all because, as a newcomer to CM and music in general, they would take you from your current position of no knowledge to a point of reaching a modicum of understanding and, more importantly, at a rate of progress you can follow. There really are no _quick-fixes_ at the end of the day in these matters.

What do you think of this suggestion, please?

Feel free to PM me and I can provide you with a number of easy to acquire standard reference works in respect of both Music Theory and Music History.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Partita said:


> [*]In the late 19th C and 20th C a lot of music was written that used all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, instead of just 7 as was the norm previously. This kind of music is called "atonal", and does not have any description involving "major" and "minor". It sounds less mellifluous than tonal music.[/list]


It is quite possible to use all 12 notes and still compose tonal music. Bach and Mozart often used a lot of chromaticism, and even all 12 notes in some pieces. Schoenberg's method is based around ordering the pitches of the chromatic scale in a specific way so as to essentially extinguish harmony. Increased use of chromaticism is one of the main factors in blurring the lines of tonality, but other factors are how chords are used, decreased reliance on cadences and how musical phrases are resolved (or not resolved).


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2019)

tdc said:


> It is quite possible to use all 12 notes and still compose tonal music. Bach and Mozart often used a lot of chromaticism, *and even all 12 notes in some pieces*. Schoenberg's method is based around ordering the pitches of the chromatic scale in a specific way so as to essentially extinguish harmony. Increased use of chromaticism is one of the main factors in blurring the lines of tonality, but other factors are how chords are used, decreased reliance on cadences and how musical phrases are resolved (or not resolved).


I know that and said so. Here's what I wrote, point No 1 above:

"Traditionally, only 7 of these notes at a time were used in any piece of music. This was to create music that sounded generally pleasing to the ear of many people, as the use of 7 seemed to work well together. (*Occasionally, some notes outside the 7 would be used as well*)."

Isn't what I wrote good enough, or didn't you see it?

I deliberately stated that I was presenting a simplified account. Your comments, especially the bit about Schoenberg etc, are complicating the matter all over again, especially as it's unlikely to be of any benefit to the OP (see K Road's comment a few posts above this).


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

There are twelve notes in our musical system. A major scale is a pattern of seven notes (do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti) that can be started on each of those twelve notes without any of the resulting sets of seven being identical.* The resulting twelve sets (of seven notes) define the major keys. The twelve minor scales are the same sets of seven notes only starting on "la" in each case. Hence twelve major keys and twelve minor keys.

Traditionally, major keys tend to be used for music expressing lighter, positive emotions, minor keys for darker, negative emotions. Almost all pieces of (tonal) music in the modern era (after ~1660) change keys more than once over their length. The key used in naming a piece (e.g.: Concerto in C minor, Symphony in D major) is, with few exceptions, the key in which it begins and ends.




*C-D-E-F-G-A-B-
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#
A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-
E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#
B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A#
F#-G#-A#-B-C#-D#-E#
Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C
Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G
Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

KRoad said:


> Dear C. W. S-Flakes,
> 
> I have mentioned this previously in response to your posts, but again, why don't you read a few basic readers in music theory and music history available at any public library. You would find this immensely enlightening I am sure. Not least of all because, as a newcomer to CM and music in general, they would take you from your current position of no knowledge to a point of reaching a modicum of understanding and, more importantly, at a rate of progress you can follow. There really are no _quick-fixes_ at the end of the day in these matters.
> 
> ...


I have never really felt a need to learn musical theory - I have some basic understanding about what to expect if I am listening to a major or minor key work - but beyond that I dont know a thing. But for those that want to - yours is an excellent suggestion.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> There are twelve notes in our musical system. A major scale is a pattern of seven notes (do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti) that can be started on each of those twelve notes without any of the resulting sets of seven being identical.* The resulting twelve sets (of seven notes) define the major keys. The twelve minor scales are the same sets of seven notes only starting on "la" in each case. Hence twelve major keys and twelve minor keys.
> 
> Traditionally, major keys tend to be used for music expressing lighter, positive emotions, minor keys for darker, negative emotions. Almost all pieces of (tonal) music in the modern era (after ~1660) change keys more than once over their length. The key used in naming a piece (e.g.: Concerto in C minor, Symphony in D major) is, with few exceptions, the key in which it begins and ends.
> 
> ...


Can I add a couple of things referring to a keyboard?









The white notes are named as the letters indicate. Each of the black notes can be called one of two things - a sharp (#) or a flat (_b_). Thus, the black key sitting between C and D can either be C# or D_b_.* The choice comes down to how it is used in the piece but the sound is the same.

One more important thing: the tonal distance between any two adjacent notes is the same. That is true whether the we're talking about a white and black note (such as C and C#) or 2 white keys (such as E and F or B and C).

And lastly, we call a movement up the scale a whole step if it skips a note in between (such as C to D skipping over the C#. If it only moves to the adjacent note (such as C to C# or E to F) it's called a half step. So the C scale above consists of:

C
Whole Step (to D)
Whole Step (to E)
Half Step (to F)
Whole Step (to G)
Whole Step (to A)
Whole Step to (B)
Half Step (to C)

Now look at EdwardBast's other scales and imagine them on the keyboard. Every one of them follows this pattern: Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step. That is the structure of a major scale.

Minor scales are a bit trickier, but imagine each of EdwardBast's scales beginning on the sixth note of the scale (la as EdwardBast says) and then cycling from there back to itself. In the first case that would be A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A. Now we have Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step. That's what make up a natural minor scale.

*I'm assuming equal temperament, which is a topic for another day. Same goes for the E#.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> *C-D-E-F-G-A-B-
> G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G
> D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#
> A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-
> ...


Wow, some of these look a bit like my TC password! Maybe I should change it.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Dont know if this is helpful or not, but beginners often focus too much on scales, you can also think about major and minor tonalities harmonically. In traditional functional harmony, you build seven diatonic chords from the scale (stack two thirds above each tone) but there are only three chord functions - tonic, dominant and subdominant (these are the '3 chords' that you can harmonize any simple tune with). Major and minor differ in whether the tonic and subdominant are constructed maj3 - min3 (major) or min3 - maj3 (minor). The dominant is major in both tonalities. So C major harmonically is Cmaj (tonic) Fmaj (subdominant) and Gmaj (dominant). C minor is Cmin, Fmin and Gmaj. Chords built of other scale degrees are substitutes for one of these three chords (for example the chord built on the second scale degree is subdominant).


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Partita said:


> I know that and said so. Here's what I wrote, point No 1 above:
> 
> "Traditionally, only 7 of these notes at a time were used in any piece of music. This was to create music that sounded generally pleasing to the ear of many people, as the use of 7 seemed to work well together. (*Occasionally, some notes outside the 7 would be used as well*)."
> 
> ...


Yes, however I felt that particular statement was over simplified and seemed to suggest that composers using 12 notes or the chromatic scale leads directly to creating atonal music. Your comment was stated in a vague way so I just wanted to clarify. My intention was not to complicate things.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

jegreenwood said:


> Can I add a couple of things referring to a keyboard?
> 
> View attachment 121736
> 
> ...


Nicely done! - - - -


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I didn't think this question could be too much more complicated than Major = Happy, Minor = Sad. lol, leave it to TC!


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I didn't think this question could be too much more complicated than Major = Happy, Minor = Sad. lol, leave it to TC!


Atonal = ?

.......


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

jdec said:


> Atonal = ?
> 
> .......


Did that coffin lid just move?


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> Speaking very broadly, major is brighter in mood and minor is darker; the use of both covers a lot of ground in mood and emotions. The key signature signifies what fundamental scale is being used, and the changes in the key signature within a work indicates the change of the fundamental scale. Works composed in minor keys tend to be a little bit more thoughtful, introspective and darker, but there are many exceptions to this rule. Major scales are related more to happiness and positive emotions, but again, there could be many exceptions to this rule because a work may not be clearly happy or clearly sad or darker in mood. These are broad generalities but many examples could be found that illustrate the broad overall principals and tendencies. The main difference between the two is that the major scale has a major third interval from the root of the scale, and the minor scale has a minor third interval with the other differences in the scale, as there are different types of minor scales. But all minor scales have a minor third interval, and all major scales have a major third interval. The difference can be heard in specific examples: https://www.musical-u.com/learn/major-minor-keys/


Thank you, from us musical dummies.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2019)

If you want to avoid technicalities, a familiar illustration might be Beethoven's fifth, where the brooding first movement is i C-minor but the triumphant finale is in C-major. It's not quite that simple, the music visits many different keys along the way, but the transition to C major as the finale begins is noticeable.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

When you get all straightened out about the keys and modes and scales and stuff, just remember this: _major_ music is the stuff I listen to, _minor_ music is the other stuff.


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