# Taurus- Spirit vs Led Zep Stairway



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Now that the lawsuit is out of the way - lets have the real debate from those in the know.

Did Jimmy and Bob steal it, that is the question?

I feel sorry for Randy California as he was not around to make comment for the hearing............

Given the Plant/ Page history of ripping off tunes I'm surprised that got away with it, George Harrison would be very dark on this in his grave.......






There are many Led Zep rip off songs - here's one I wasn't aware of it's similar enough even the same name............ Holmes sued Page for copyright infringement in 2010 and settled out of court in January 2012- the Led Zep (cover) is now listed as inspired by Holmes...... 

Jake Holmes - Dazed and Confused


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The intro to Stairway was obviously influenced by the Spirit tune, but not close enough musically to call it a rip off. Dazed and Confused, on the other hand, is a blatant rip off!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The main difference is, Taurus is boring. That ought to count for something.


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## James Mann (Sep 6, 2016)

I think the comparison is stupid, it's only a small chord progression. Give me a break! :lol:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ What about the intro, Stairway should at least be listed as Inspired by Randy California.............


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## James Mann (Sep 6, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ What about the intro, Stairway should at least be listed as Inspired by Randy California.............


No I don't think so. I think every rock musician out there today should write a song in response to this lawsuit, using the same chords. Spirit didn't do it first either. Chords are chords.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

James Mann said:


> No I don't think so. I think every rock musician out there today should write a song in response to this lawsuit, using the same chords. Spirit didn't do it first either. Chords are chords.


However, Led Zep toured with Spirit early on when Spirit performed Taurus on stage and Page was obviously influenced by what he heard and wasn't slow in using others music and tunes- this is just another example of a Led Zep rip off.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I repeat my argument that people are lucky to get "ripped off" and have their tunes appropriated and reworked by Zep. Their efforts are saved from total obscurity by being reborn and transfigured by one of the (my opinion) greatest bands in rock history.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ That's one way to look at it. I'm sure that none of the musician's involved would agree with you. Spirit were far from obscure and would not agree either. One of the greatest band yes, original no............


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Luigi Denza wrote "Funiculì, Funiculà" 1880 and was more than happy to sue Richard Strauss for incorporating it into _Aus Italien_. The court's award kept him far warmer on cold nights than any reflections on the good luck of having his work stolen by a more famous composer.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Luigi Denza wrote "Funiculì, Funiculà" 1880 and was more than happy to sue Richard Strauss for incorporating it into _Aus Italien_. The court's award kept him far warmer on cold nights than any reflections on the good luck of having his work stolen by a more famous composer.


Unfortunately in this case Spirit (Randy California's family) didn't get anything..........


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, in Denza's case the borrowing was far more substantial -- the whole darn song! Strauss thought it was a traditional folksong...which it wasn't. It was later used to good effect in Mickey and the Beanstalk. "Pancakes piled up till they reach the sky. I'm gonna eat and eat and eat and eat and eat until I die..." Remember that one?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ I would contend that the borrowing in the Stairway case, although short was the key theme. Granted it was not the whole song (unlike Dazed and Confused) but the Key theme is pretty important...............


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I first bought Spirit's debut album about two years after buying Led Zeppelin (IV) and I for one never made a connection between the two songs in question. I was so blown away by the diversity and originality of the Spirit album (as I was with the Doors' debut and Love's _Forever Changes_ from the same era) that I probably assumed that no-one would ever attempt to crib from it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> I first bought Spirit's debut album about two years after buying Led Zeppelin (IV) and I for one never made a connection between the two songs in question. I was so blown away by the diversity and originality of the Spirit album (as I was with the Doors' debut and Love's _Forever Changes_ from the same era) that I probably assumed that no-one would ever attempt to crib from it.


Agreed, Spirit were some sort of band and Love's _Forever Changes is a good'n_


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I thought the introductory section was a complete rip off, although there are weird coincidences. Led Zeppelin should have at least acknowledged this and instructed their offers to give Spirit at least a show payment.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Why should we have to say the "whole song" must show being a rip off. That introductory section is one of the most striking parts of the song. Led Zeppelin should have been shown to be a band capable to taking others material and show it as their own. I was disappointed by the verdict.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

They may have been influenced by it, but what they did to that progression is more interesting than the original.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> Why should we have to say the "whole song" must show being a rip off. That introductory section is one of the most striking parts of the song. Led Zeppelin should have been shown to be a bad capable to taking others material and show it as their own. I was disappointed by the verdict.


Sorry should have given the third choice but that is what this reply section is for. Agreed, the whole song is not a rip off but the Introduction is a rip off. The point of the post is to promote discussion on the topic....

Cheers
Eddie


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I think it is obvious that Zeppelin ripped off that bit from Taurus, meaning they heard it night after night while touring with Spirit and then Page, consciously or unconsciously, regurgitated the opening in composing Stairway. Nevertheless, I believe the ruling was correct because while several components of the Spirit were borrowed (descending bass line and most of the progression), I don't think the components are distinctive enough or original enough to be covered under copyright. The descending bass line from tonic down to dominant, whether chromatic or diatonic, has been the common property of composers since 1600. I'm sure the one of the testifying musicologists pulled out examples by Monteverdi, Purcell, etc. And, as a rule, chord progressions can't be copyrighted. 

Another almost identical case is the Eagles ripping off Jethro Tull for the song Hotel California. The Eagles were the opening act when Tull was performing "We Used to Know" every night, and it is obvious they stole the progression for Hotel California from it. There is an interview with Ian Anderson (from Jethro Tull) on the web in which he discusses the case. He comes to the same conclusion I did above: Of course we all know where they got the progression, but there is no legal basis for a suit since one can't copyright progressions.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> I think it is obvious that Zeppelin ripped off that bit from Taurus, meaning they heard it night after night while touring with Spirit and then Page, consciously or unconsciously, regurgitated the opening in composing Stairway. Nevertheless, I believe the ruling was correct because while several components of the Spirit were borrowed (descending bass line and most of the progression), I don't think the components are distinctive enough or original enough to be covered under copyright. The descending bass line from tonic down to dominant, whether chromatic or diatonic, has been the common property of composers since 1600. I'm sure the one of the testifying musicologists pulled out examples by Monteverdi, Purcell, etc. And, as a rule, chord progressions can't be copyrighted.
> 
> Another almost identical case is the Eagles ripping off Jethro Tull for the song Hotel California. The Eagles were the opening act when Tull was performing "We Used to Know" every night, and it is obvious they stole the progression for Hotel California from it. There is an interview with Ian Anderson (from Jethro Tull) on the web in which he discusses the case. He comes to the same conclusion I did above: Of course we all know where they got the progression, but there is no legal basis for a suit since one can't copyright progressions.


Interesting, have heard of the Hotel California Tull thing but was also told once that Hotel California is a rip off of an old European Gypsy Folk Tune..................


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Lawyers feeding on the bruised egos of disappointed artists. I paint a picture with a horse in it. You paint _Guernica_. I sue you for being a horse thief. I have little tolerance for these lawsuits.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Interesting, have heard of the Hotel California Tull thing but was also told once that Hotel California is a rip off of an old European Gypsy Folk Tune..................


Given that Tull pounded it into their head night after night on tour, it seems far more likely the source of the Eagles' "inspiration" is the more direct one. But the progression might well have appeared in a gypsy tune as well - which, of course, is why one can't copyright progressions! I have always assumed Ian Anderson had that progression, and others like it, in his head because he knew the music of Bach - and this is possibly why he is so sanguine about the Eagles' borrowing it; Ultimately, he had borrowed it too and he knew it. Nevertheless, the progression is distinctive for a rock tune and I doubt the Eagles would ever have written Hotel California had they not toured with Tull.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Given that Tull pounded it into their head night after night on tour, it seems far more likely the source of the Eagles' "inspiration" is the more direct one. But the progression might well have appeared in a gypsy tune as well - which, of course, is why one can't copyright progressions! I have always assumed Ian Anderson had that progression, and others like it, in his head because he knew the music of Bach - and this is possibly why he is so sanguine about the Eagles' borrowing it; Ultimately, he had borrowed it too and he knew it. Nevertheless, the progression is distinctive for a rock tune and I doubt the Eagles would ever have written Hotel California had they not toured with Tull.


Agreed, however Journey of the Sorcerer is an interesting case in point of that the at least one of the boys could write, however that was by Bernie Leadon who was kicked out or something,,,,,, way before Hotel


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Agreed, however Journey of the Sorcerer is an interesting case in point of that the at least one of the boys could write, however that was by Bernie Leadon who was kicked out or something,,,,,, way before Hotel


I'll check it out. Thanks.


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