# Wagner with English subtitles?



## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

So, I have never really listened to any of Wagner's operas in full (aside from Tristan und Isolde), but I kind of want to check them out. However, I'd really like to be able to find a performance that has english subtitles, since honestly that's the only way I'll ever know whats going on haha.  I hate looking for decent translations, and hate even more having to look down every minute to find out what's going on! Does anyone know of any good versions (ideally on something like youtube but I'll check out other options also) that have subtitles in English? Eventually I'd like to check out Parsifal, The Ring cycle, and Tristan und Isolde (again), and maybe some others if any Wagner-people have suggestions! Obviously that'll take quite some time though lol, these things are super-long!! Thanks for the help!


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

Copenhagen Ring : Das Rheingold





Die Walkure part 1





*etc.*
Go find yourselves the others on the uploaders channel. 
I hope you don't mind regie?


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

English sub/surtitles really changed the accessibility of opera for 'ordinary' folks forever. I bless them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

eorrific said:


> Copenhagen Ring : Das Rheingold
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow this is fantastic! I'll have to watch all of these!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Most opera DVDs have English subtitles . I also recommend the Ring from the Netherlands opera conducted by hartmut Haenchen , which I recently borrowed on interloan from my library .
In Wagner, subtitles are especially helpful ,because his operas contain long passages which are dramatically rather static where the characters are reflecting on their emotional states or having converstaions with the other characters .


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

As has been said, most dvds will have English subs. I'd recommend in particular the 1990/91 Met Ring as a traditional production. It was my first Ring and though some parts of the production are a bit corny, I think a traditional Ring is best for a first experience. I'm still not a huge Ring fan -- I'd say I respect and appreciate more than like it -- but the descent to Nibelhiem in Das Rheingold was completely and utterly stunning and Das Rheingold in general is easily my favorite -- perhaps due to length, perhaps due to a faster moving plot. I'll just say not to try and watch clips on Youtube, the experience is greater when taking in the entire opera as it naturally progresses through the story.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Boy, that Copenhagen Ring sure is undersung. Is the balance really bad or are all the voices small? The acting is really underplayed too. Not a lot of spark.


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## sachiotakashima (Apr 17, 2012)

Also, as you get more into Wagner, remember he was a poet and wrote his own libretti. It might be an additional adventure to read the texts as poems, after spending time with the Operas. Maybe look for Richard Wagner Ring OF the Niberlung , translated with an foreword by Stewart Robb, Dutton paperback.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Alas, the videos posted above are no longer available.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Alas, the videos posted above are no longer available.


They where posted in 2012 , not on YOU TUBE either?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> They where posted in 2012 , not on YOU TUBE either?


I need to search for them, or others, as the case may be.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

In my situation, I'm only looking for a Meistersinger subtitled in English or Spanish, please.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I need to search for them, or others, as the case may be.


The Boulez 1977 ring is available in English










The rest of my findings are in Spanish


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> In my situation, I'm only looking for a Meistersinger subtitled in English or Spanish, please.


Don't you have a DVD player?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have a suspicion Wagner would want everyone to learn German - if only to approach his operas.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have a suspicion Wagner would want everyone to learn German - if only to approach his operas.


I agree. Can you see Wagner ever approving of "The Ring in English"? Ridiculous!!

I am a purist regarding most music and I believe 100% that opera should only be performed in its original language.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I agree. Can you see Wagner ever approving of "The Ring in English"? Ridiculous!!
> 
> I am a purist regarding most music and I believe 100% that opera should only be performed in its original language.


"I hope you will see to it that my works are performed in English; only in this way can they be intimately understood by an English speaking audience." 
--Richard Wagner Oct 22 1877
http://www.the-wagnerian.com/2013/04/goodall-ring-cycle-in-english-why.html


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> "I hope you will see to it that my works are performed in English; only in this way can they be intimately understood by an English speaking audience."
> --Richard Wagner Oct 22 1877
> http://www.the-wagnerian.com/2013/04/goodall-ring-cycle-in-english-why.html


I would say: touché.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> "I hope you will see to it that my works are performed in English; only in this way can they be intimately understood by an English speaking audience."
> --Richard Wagner Oct 22 1877
> http://www.the-wagnerian.com/2013/04/goodall-ring-cycle-in-english-why.html


I don't believe he was sober, saying something that dumb.

Either that, or another example of fake news.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Anybody who goes to an opera performance and doesn't do serious libretto homework before attending, and spends the evening reading the supertitles or subtitles might as well have been sitting in front of a phonograph instead of a stage.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When an opera is translated to a different language, problems will develop because the translated words no longer musically fit as the original language words do.

To have me believe that Wagner would approve his operas in English, a language so different from the original German, with all the musical problems that would create, is not rational.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Anybody who goes to an opera performance and doesn't do serious libretto homework before attending, and spends the evening reading the supertitles or subtitles might as well have been sitting in front of a phonograph instead of a stage.


Eeeh? I go to watch operas like they were films. I want to know the plot and words in the moment.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Please don't tell me the ending of Parsifal. I'm watching Act III tonight.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Granate said:


> Eeeh? I go to watch operas like they were films. I want to know the plot and words in the moment.


Leave opera alone! It should only be performed as written, as the composer intended!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Granate said:


> Please don't tell me the ending of Parsifal. I'm watching Act III tonight.


The witch pushes Hansel in the oven.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Everybody knows that when an opera is translated to a different language, problems will develop because the translated words no longer musically fit as the original language words do.
> 
> To have me believe that Wagner would approve his operas in English, a language so different from the original German, with all the musical problems that would create, is insane.


I'm watching Parsifal with Spanish subtitles and, well it's not German poetry, but I find the direct translation as really pleasing, way more artistic than when I watch Idomeneo or La Traviata.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Granate said:


> I'm watching Parsifal with Spanish subtitles and, well it's not German poetry, but I find the direct translation as really pleasing, way more artistic than when I watch Idomeneo or La Traviata.


My point is if you are watching the subtitles, you are missing the opera.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> My point is if you are watching the subtitles, you are missing the opera.


I'm not going to deny that, I'm new to full-length operas. I guess my perception will change over the years when I find out more about the topic rather than the first exposure.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> I'm watching Parsifal with Spanish subtitles and, well it's not German poetry, but I find the direct translation as really pleasing, way more artistic than when I watch Idomeneo or La Traviata.


You are lucky you have Spanish subtitles, we have to do with English/ German / Spanish, no Dutch.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Granate said:


> I'm not going to deny that, I'm new to full-length operas. I guess my perception will change over the years when I find out more about the topic rather than the first exposure.


I'm giving you two hours to do your homework!!!!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I don't believe he was sober, saying something that dumb.
> 
> Either that, or another example of fake news.


It is easier to translate the opera to English for the comprehension of many, than for the many to learn German to the level needed to understand the opera sung in the original language. I don't see it as dumb at all. Regardless of whether the quote is fake, there is value to having English translations.

I have purchased many operas in English, but ultimately do prefer listening in the original language. The English version and even more the English subtitles in a DVD are a great help to learn an opera, as well as reading the libretto in English. Fact is, I will never understand the German, but if I can get familiar enough to always know what is happening at any given moment in the audio recording, I am content.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

There is certainly value to having operas performed in translation, but I'm glad it's a rare thing.

There are some misunderstandings of, for example, Wagner's Ring due to common translations. "When I for Fricka, paid the price of an eye" as used in the Goodall Ring (and included in various printed translations other record sets) has led many people to believe that there are two conflicting stories about how/why Wotan gave up his eye. "Risked an eye" or "wagered an eye" don't scan but are more accurate translations.

So while the problem is the singing translation, it has been printed as a translation of the libretto in other places. People "doing their homework" before attending a performance of _Die Walkure_ would still be under this misapprehension if this is the version they read.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> My point is if you are watching the subtitles, you are missing the opera.


At one point it was expected that audiences would be reading the printed books with the texts during the performance.

Wagner moved away from that, of course.

But perhaps attending an opera (or watching a DVD) and paying attention to the subtitles can be seen as preparation for seeing/listening to the opera again.

Not every viewing needs to be absolutely ideal and in fact it's probably safe that it won't be in one way or another. One of the things I loved about seeing _Jenůfa_ several times live last summer was that I felt the need to pay less attention to the subtitles each time.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Florestan said:


> "I hope you will see to it that my works are performed in English; only in this way can they be intimately understood by an English speaking audience."
> --Richard Wagner Oct 22 1877
> http://www.the-wagnerian.com/2013/04/goodall-ring-cycle-in-english-why.html


I would guess he went for the lesser evil: either translating his operas in order to be understood by the broad foreign audience - or having that audience hardly get the intent behind his works at all and treat them as pure music. Wagner put far too much work into his poetry, so I guess he had to choose the first way.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Opera in the language of the audience was simply assumed in Wagner's day, and prevailed well into the 20th century. Composers may have dreamed about audiences all over the world someday comprehending their operas when hearing them in the original language, but certainly they wanted their works to be vital theatrical experiences for people in their own day. Composers do hope to have successes and even make some money from their work.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

hpowders said:


> When an opera is translated to a different language, problems will develop because the translated words no longer musically fit as the original language words do.
> 
> To have me believe that Wagner would approve his operas in English, a language so different from the original German, with all the musical problems that would create, is not rational.


I agree. Changing the text, kills arias. They don't sound the same anymore.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Marinera said:


> I agree. Changing the text, kills arias. They don't sound the same anymore.


And yet Chandos did a whole series of translated operas in English, so did the Germans in the early days.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> And yet Chandos did a whole series of translated operas in English, so did the Germans in the early days.


I have many of those Chandos Opera-in-English recordings. Just put the English Flying Dutchman on my player for tomorrow.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I have many of those Chandos Opera-in-English recordings. Just put the English Flying Dutchman on my player for tomorrow.


Please do enjoy yourself with the lot, I know you will.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Please do enjoy yourself with the lot, I know you will.


My Swarowsky Ring ended so I started the Dutchman already. Very good, and I note that while there may not be the best translations into English, there still is a lot more understanding than listening to a language I don't know. The English makes it come alive from the story perspective, makes it much more engaging than just hearing it only as music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Opera in the language of the audience was simply assumed in Wagner's day, and prevailed well into the 20th century. Composers may have dreamed about audiences all over the world someday comprehending their operas when hearing them in the original language, but certainly they wanted their works to be vital theatrical experiences for people in their own day. Composers do hope to have successes and even make some money from their work.


Karajan was taken to task by Toscanini for performing opera in the original language!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

This is an extremely good Dutchman recording. The vocals are very clear and you will really hear the story in vivid detail. I am listening now and am amazed at what a wonderful opera this is when the words are understood. And this is one of my favorites as I have thirteen recordings of it, yet now it is coming across as a new experience with the words understood. I recommend everyone who loves the Hollander get this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Karajan was taken to task by Toscanini for performing opera in the original language!


Interesting. Wagner was sung in Italian in Italy as late as the 1950s, and we can hear Callas sing the entire role of Kundry in Italian. When asked about her Wagner performances, she commented that Wagner was then still "difficult" for Italian audiences, and hearing him in their own language surely did much to educate them. There is a place for opera in translation, even if it often sounds odd, as _Parsifal_ in Italian definitely does. (It may also create difficulties for singers: Kundry's famous high B on "lachte!" has to be sung on "ridi!" - a lot harder for a soprano at the top of her range, though Callas handles it confidently).

There are plenty of pre-WW II recordings of Wagner sung in Italian, French, Swedish and other languages, but also many superb recordings of Italian opera sung in German by leading German-speaking artists of the day. Here are two of the greats:











I'd happily take Melchior or Schwarz singing Verdi in German over any of today's tenors or baritones singing him in the original language!


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Florestan said:


> This is an extremely good Dutchman recording. The vocals are very clear and you will really hear the story in vivid detail. I am listening now and am amazed at what a wonderful opera this is when the words are understood. And this is one of my favorites as I have thirteen recordings of it, yet now it is coming across as a new experience with the words understood. I recommend everyone who loves the Hollander get this.


Tomlinson, Stemme.....sounds very promising! Thanks for sharing!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> This is an extremely good Dutchman recording. The vocals are very clear and you will really hear the story in vivid detail. I am listening now and am amazed at what a wonderful opera this is when the words are understood. And this is one of my favorites as I have thirteen recordings of it, yet now it is coming across as a new experience with the words understood. I recommend everyone who loves the Hollander get this.


So many records, so little time.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Marinera said:


> I agree. Changing the text, kills arias. They don't sound the same anymore.


The biggest problem in converting Wagner's German to an English libretto is finding similar wordings that have the same rhythmic musical patterns as the original German. I've yet to hear this successfully done.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Pugg said:


> And yet Chandos did a whole series of translated operas in English, so did the Germans in the early days.


Well, there's English National Opera (ENO) in London, and they do operas in English. Though I prefer to familiarize myself with libretto before attending any opera. The staging is always interesting and as another different experience of course, but if I had to choose it would be Tristan and Isolde in Covent Garden in German


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Marinera said:


> Well, there's English National Opera (ENO) in London, and they do operas in English. Though I prefer to familiarize myself with libretto before attending any opera. The staging is always interesting and as another different experience of course, but if I had to choose it would be Tristan and Isolde in Covent Garden in German


I am not arguing , I just wroth what I know.
In red, I agree.:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Granate said:


> Please don't tell me the ending of Parsifal. I'm watching Act III tonight.


The butler was the killer.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> The butler was the killer.


Augggh! What a terrible ending. Now I am not going to bother watching it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Augggh! What a terrible ending. Now I am not going to bother watching it.


Not all is true what is said on the internet.:lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> And yet Chandos did a whole series of translated operas in English, so did the Germans in the early days.


I have Lulu in the Chandos ENO series. Excellent.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I have Lulu in the Chandos ENO series. Excellent.


I can follow the German text reasonable well.


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