# Various versions of Alice in Wonderland



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Can you help me make sense of the different operas based on Alice in Wonderland ? 
Which one of them would sound more OK to somebody, who likes bel canto ? Have you personally tried to show any of them to real living children ? How did they like it ?


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I know that they exist, but didn't hear any. 
My friends recently took to the opera their 13 year old son, they watched The queen of spades. We all were surprised how enthusiastic was he. Now he's asking about next time. 
During one of my Ring cycles I saw some families with children, who not only came all four evenings but didn't leave in pauses.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Bear in mind that “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” was published in 1865. That will eliminate quite a few composers.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

jegreenwood said:


> Bear in mind that “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” was published in 1865. That will eliminate quite a few composers.


I don't expect Bellini. Just which of the versions is comparatively less dissonant and shows some melody.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I vaguely remember that opera based on "Alice" was mentioned in the thread Contemporary opera.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> I vaguely remember that opera based on "Alice" was mentioned in the thread Contemporary opera.


All of them are contemporary. But they are for children, too. Is any of them more merciful ?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't know about Alice operas. There are a bunch of operas addressed at children.
Of the former there is "Brundibar" by Hans Krasa (with the tragic background having been performed in Terezin concentration camp) and "Help, help, the Globolinks" (alien invaders) by Menotti. I have seen both (as an adult, mainly because people I knew participated) and they are quite nice.
I think there is also an opera on "Where the Wild Things are" but I don't know that one.
Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and "The abduction from the Seraglio" are sometimes presented/arranged as operas for children. I find this doubtful as both are clearly dominated by adult themes although I have seen such a version of the Abduction and it was obviously a lot of fun for the kids.
And of course Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel, as long and Wagnerian as it is, was considered suitable for children, especially in Germany/Austria...


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> All of them are contemporary. But they are for children, too. Is any of them more merciful ?


I didn't see them. I know also that Finnish opera staged a ballet several years ago.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't know about Alice operas. There are a bunch of operas addressed at children.
> Of the former there is "Brundibar" by Hans Krasa (with the tragic background having been performed in Terezin concentration camp) and "Help, help, the Globolinks" (alien invaders) by Menotti. I have seen both (as an adult, mainly because people I knew participated) and they are quite nice.
> I think there is also an opera on "Where the Wild Things are" but I don't know that one.
> *Mozart's "The Magic Flute" *and "The abduction from the Seraglio" are sometimes presented/arranged as operas for children. I find this doubtful as both are clearly dominated by adult themes although I have seen such a version of the Abduction and it was obviously a lot of fun for the kids.
> And of course Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel, as long and Wagnerian as it is, was considered suitable for children, especially in Germany/Austria...


The Met has a children's version of "The Magic Flute." Directed by Julie ("The Lion King") Taymor. It was well received as I recall. And there's always the Bergman film.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

ColdGenius said:


> I didn't see them. I know also that Finnish opera staget a ballet several years ago.


Was it this?






This production was created for the Royal Opera Ballet. I have it as part of a box set of their ballets, but I I'm only halfway through the box, so I haven't reached it yet.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't know how well Lewis Carroll's text would come over operatically when translated into other languages due to the plethora of nonsensical words, names and riddles. There is also a strong streak of mind-bending eccentricity running through the stories, the true essence of which I suspect would be lost on many composers, irrespective of their nationality and timeline. In the 19th century I think the only British composer who could have done the Alice stories any musical justice was Arthur Sullivan (as long as he stayed faithful to the text and didn't rope in Gilbert to bowdlerise it all with his smart-alec wordplay). In the 20th century Britten could have been a likely candidate, based on the marvellous job he and Peter Pears did with _A Midsummer Night's Dream_. Perhaps the fact that no-one chose the Alice stories as operatic subjects for well over a hundred years tells its own story - they are probably just too odd.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Disney film is not too far off the mark with lovely music. I think the clever wording, that is the hallmark of the story to me, would get lost in legato singing. Some of the early Disney films were very close to operetta, especially Snow White with all that coloratura. 
Rusalka is a story children would love. I think if the Ring was watched in hour long segments it's mythic tale and great music could arouse interest in a child in small doses at a time..


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I remember a première of an opera called *Final Alice*, by David Del Tredici. It was done by the Chicago Symphony, Georg Solti.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Rusalka is a story children would love.


You wrote a lot of useful stuff, but on this little point, you are wrong. Rusalka is, even in our country, traditionally recommended for children. However, the plot is more like a horror. I wouldn't want to explain it to neither my 7 nor 4 year old. 

The water veela changes into a human being to pursue her love of the prince. However, the prince betrays her, and by the law of magic used for her initial transformation, she must now be transformed again, but into a creature of evil. She will be a water spirit which lures people into swamps (marsh) by flickering a little light, and subsequently drawns them. And this unpleasant task will be for ever, there is no death available for her. The prince who betrayed her is, in turn, destined for eternal damnation, i.e. hell. At the end of the opera, he regrets what he did. He returns to her, and asks her to kiss him, knowing it will kill him and transport him directly to hell. She does kiss him, but prays to God to save him, because he allowed her to know the human love, and she still appreciates it. So there is some hope for the prince, but we are never sure, because her daddy, the water sprite, sings in a deep bass or barytone voice, that, alas, all the sacrifices are in vain. Good night !


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> You wrote a lot of useful stuff, but on this little point, you are wrong. Rusalka is, even in our country, traditionally recommended for children. However, the plot is more like a horror. I wouldn't want to explain it to neither my 7 nor 4 year old.
> 
> The water veela changes into a human being to pursue her love of the prince. However, the prince betrays her, and by the law of magic used for her initial transformation, she must now be transformed again, but into a creature of evil. She will be a water spirit which lures people into swamps (marsh) by flickering a little light, and subsequently drawns them. And this unpleasant task will be for ever, there is no death available for her. The prince who betrayed her is, in turn, destined for eternal damnation, i.e. hell. At the end of the opera, he regrets what he did. He returns to her, and asks her to kiss him, knowing it will kill him and transport him directly to hell. She does kiss him, but prays to God to save him, because he allowed her to know the human love, and she still appreciates it. So there is some hope for the prince, but we are never sure, because her daddy, the water sprite, sings in a deep bass or barytone voice, that, alas, all the sacrifices are in vain. Good night !


I always thought that Rusalka, both libretto of Dvorak's opera and Andersen's fairy tale, are not for children. Pushkin's play on the same subject too (a source of little-known opera by Dargomyzhsky in its turn).


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

jegreenwood said:


> Was it this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, it was another ballet. 








Alice in Wonderland - Ooppera – Baletti


With brilliantly beautiful classical ballet, mesmerizing music and sets and costumes fit for a fairy tale, Alice in Wonderland charms visitors of all ages.




oopperabaletti.fi


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I remember a première of an opera called *Final Alice*, by David Del Tredici. It was done by the Chicago Symphony, Georg Solti.


Del Tredici's is the only Alice opera I've heard of. I read about it and heard something from it decades ago but remember nothing about it. 

Lewis Carroll's logic games and word play are essential to his stories and need to be digested at the reader's own pace. They're poor material for musical setting.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Unsuk Chin's is excellent. Lots of fun. I really want a commercial recording of it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and "The abduction from the Seraglio" are sometimes presented/arranged as operas for children.


an interesting article-








Zauberkinder: Children and Childhood in Late Eighteenth-Century Singspiel and Lieder


Author(s): Mueller, Adeline | Advisor(s): Smart, Mary Ann | Abstract: In this dissertation, I trace the complex negotiations of childhood play, display, power, propriety, and authenticity in the Singspiels and Lieder of the late eighteenth century. My central claim is that the musical culture of...



escholarship.org


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Op.123 said:


> Unsuk Chin's is excellent. Lots of fun.


Imaginative and fun. Just like the text itself. I can`t really explain why but I just love the idea of the whole _Socratic_ caterpillar scene becoming a klezmer-ish bass clarinet solo. Obviously there are more layers to it but replacing the hookah with the bass clarinet is witty enough an idea. I should probably watch this again soon.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> You wrote a lot of useful stuff, but on this little point, you are wrong. Rusalka is, even in our country, traditionally recommended for children. However, the plot is more like a horror. I wouldn't want to explain it to neither my 7 nor 4 year old.
> 
> The water veela changes into a human being to pursue her love of the prince. However, the prince betrays her, and by the law of magic used for her initial transformation, she must now be transformed again, but into a creature of evil. She will be a water spirit which lures people into swamps (marsh) by flickering a little light, and subsequently drawns them. And this unpleasant task will be for ever, there is no death available for her. The prince who betrayed her is, in turn, destined for eternal damnation, i.e. hell. At the end of the opera, he regrets what he did. He returns to her, and asks her to kiss him, knowing it will kill him and transport him directly to hell. She does kiss him, but prays to God to save him, because he allowed her to know the human love, and she still appreciates it. So there is some hope for the prince, but we are never sure, because her daddy, the water sprite, sings in a deep bass or barytone voice, that, alas, all the sacrifices are in vain. Good night !


I've only listened to it without a libretto. How awful and depressing! The Song of the Moon is so lovely as is the music to the opera. In my shaky defense before Disney many of the fairy tales were much more terrifying. I haven't' been around young children since I was one as my siblings lived so far away and none of my friends had any. It has been a great regret in my life as I am basically an overgrown kid.


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