# Bragging Rights 2



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

From a facebook friend, those lovely people at list challenges have a Musicals List.

As before, how did you do and how good is the list?

Mine was 36 (2 stars) and I felt that some of the choices were a little odd.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Taggart said:


> I felt that some of the choices were a little odd.


Like the Travolta cheese? I haven't seen more than a few of these, but I'll watch anything with Gene Kelly. He was an incredible dancer and athlete.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

32, and I guess it doesn't matter whether it's live on stage or a movie in your own home.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

31 - 2 stars; and even then, some of them I saw as a child, shown on black & white TV, so can hardly remember; others I watched about half and then gave up in disgust.

I think musicals are like _the little girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead_ - when they are *good* (like _*Seven Brides for Seven Brothers*_, they are *very very good*, and when they are *bad* (like *Grease*), they are *horrid*! :lol:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I can proudly announce that I've never listened to the whole Phantom of The Opera. My bragging rights are immense.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

How did I end up with 41? I agree; there are unusual choices. Not much Sondheim in the group.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I scored a paltry 13. It would have been 15 had they included Fiddler on the Roof and Godspell.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

33 - surprised - thought I'd get less.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> I scored a paltry 13. It would have been 15 had they included Fiddler on the Roof and Godspell.


I thought Godspell was a choice.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Pretty sure the outcome for me would be a big fat zero. Did not bother taking the test, but I don't think I have ever seen one musical in my life (heard excerpts of course).


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

3 (Grease, Sound of Music & Help!) *hides head in shame*


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

22. I need to see more... 

But you know, where's Sweeney Todd? Into the Woods? Spring Awakening? Or the Threepenny Opera?


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

2 (Westside Story and mamma Mia.)

Both were against my will.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> I thought Godspell was a choice.


Oops - couldn't have noticed it while busy totting up my 'haven't seen it' votes... :lol:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> I scored a paltry 13. It would have been 15 had they included Fiddler on the Roof and Godspell.


I scored 12; given the movie selections, I can live with it.


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## ShropshireMoose (Sep 2, 2013)

Scored 7, I think this is, by and large, a positive result. I used to play the piano for a company who did shows made up of songs from the shows, so at one time or another have (for money) waded through a great deal of the dross churned out by Lloyd Webber and co. The fellow who organised this group considered himself a fully fledged Italian style tenor, on one occasion I had to accompany him at a private function, in which he was singing in this capacity. Unfortunately, he could not pronounce his r's, and even more unfortunately, he chose to finish with "Nessun Dorma", well it ruined that aria for me, I can never hear it now without the strains of "vincewo, vincewo" coming into my mind- add to that the Bing Crosby style turn that he put onto the final one and you can imagine how the nightmare persists!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

12. I'm neither proud of how many I've seen, nor how many I haven't.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Never mind all that ersatz opera how many of these obscure but influential bands do you know
http://www.listchallenges.com/75-essential-obscure-and-influential-bands


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Scored 15. Was amused to note that I'd almost forgotten about a production of one of them that I'd seen staring a family member.

Just saw the stage version of Mary Poppins last night, actually.


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## Gilberto (Sep 12, 2013)

Ugghh....I saw the film La Vie En Rose, is that considered a musical? 

I saw the film version of West Side Story and know the tune Some Enchanted Evening but...I'm familiar with some of that stuff like my daughter is familiar with New Kids On The Block. Ugghhh....dad, don't remind me!!!


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

10, partly due to cinema outings as a small child, partly because of my daughter's abiding love of musicals!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

TurnaboutVox said:


> 10, partly due to cinema outings as a small child, partly because of my daughter's abiding love of musicals!


How did I get 22? I hate musicals! I'm an opera fiend for heaven's sake!

But I suspect due to the same reasons as you.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Tristan said:


> 22. I need to see more...
> 
> But you know, where's Sweeney Todd? Into the Woods? Spring Awakening? Or the Threepenny Opera?


The Threepenny Opera is most certainly not a musical,don't drag into that ,mostly, dross.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I thought why not do it, so I did. To my horror I scored 39 x2 stars---now where do I hang my head ?


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

34 - but some of my favourites weren't there - _L'il Abner_, _How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying_, _Half a Sixpence, Nine, You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown, La cage aux follies, A Little Night Music, Follies_ - to name a few classics that deserve to be on any comprehensive list.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Maybe someone here could create an opera list on that site.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

There's nothing to brag about. I generally can't stand musicals.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DeepR said:


> There's nothing to brag about. I generally can't stand musicals.


Having been in Shropshire Moose's shoes when first fresh out the conservatory door and into the working world (soon changed that the moment other clientele, in other genres, came along -- the genre maybe even motivated me to look for other music work I didn't even take the quiz, not wishing to be reminded.

That said, out of some musicals comes along one of the sixteen to twenty-two, at least one more than worthy song (I reflexively exclude Lloyd Weber, or his ghost composers), part of the "great American Songbook" or western musical theater song-book, if you will.

The genre, sorry, almost completely not for me.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

52. Out of the 48 I haven't seen, I haven't heard of nearly half. I'm being honest though. My parents were big Rodgers and Hammerstein fans, as well as Gilbert and Sullivan. Still, there are about 10 - 15 really good movies on that list, and out of the 52 I've seen, I'd probably watch about 30 again. I guess a lot of it depends on what you were exposed to and when you were exposed to it.

Also. If disclaimers were a disease, half of you would be hospitalized.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

scratchgolf said:


> If disclaimers were a disease, half of you would be hospitalized.


Well, in the hospital in the psych wards maybe, these are, of course "special wards" though:

_"I love musicals but don't want that known about me within the classical music circles where I'm known." _
*The Guilty Pleasures Ward.*

_"I find myself somewhat physically sick or slightly nauseated when listening to certain kinds of popular genre music vs. classical."_
Whether psychosomatic due to hypochondria or other, this is 
*The First World Problem Allergic Reaction Syndrome Ward* of which I've been an occasional "guest."

[ADD: I was first really surprised (then quickly said, 'of course') to see almost all of the listings were _films of musicals_. That means often enough, less of the songs than the usual stage productions, and too, sometimes less than great singing vs. the recordings of the original stage productions. END ADD]


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

moody said:


> The Threepenny Opera is most certainly not a musical,don't drag into that ,mostly, dross.


Just because it's not full of flamboyant dancing and loud enthusiastic singing, doesn't mean it's not a musical. I'd say it most certainly _is_ a musical. The genre is wider than you think. But if you decide from the outset that the genre is terrible, then of course you're going to find good examples of the genre and claim they don't belong there in the first place...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tristan said:


> Just because it's not full of flamboyant dancing and loud enthusiastic singing, doesn't mean it's not a musical. I'd say it most certainly _is_ a musical. The genre is wider than you think. But if you decide from the outset that the genre is terrible, then of course you're going to find good examples of the genre and claim they don't belong there in the first place...


b b b but it is _European_, ergo, a "_singspiel_" or "_operette_" but and oh, la, those translate as "musical" don't they? -- and it is one of the truly great ones


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Tristan said:


> Just because it's not full of flamboyant dancing and loud enthusiastic singing, doesn't mean it's not a musical. I'd say it most certainly _is_ a musical. The genre is wider than you think. But if you decide from the outset that the genre is terrible, then of course you're going to find good examples of the genre and claim they don't belong there in the first place...


It is an opera and was written as a satire on opera and operetta. With respect I don't need to be corrected on Kurt Weill.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> It is an opera and was written as a satire on opera and operetta. With respect I don't need to be corrected on Kurt Weill.


This man is right -- _Die Dreigroschenoper_ (1928) _*is*_ a Singspiel, with spoken dialogue between sung numbers. Mozart's _Die Zauberflöte_ (1791) is another Singspiel: people aren't running around calling that one 'a musical.'

Granted, there may be a precedent (I have never seen or read a synopsis of John Gay's Beggar's Opera, 1728 !, after which _Die Dreigroschenoper_ is modeled), but with its socialist leanings the Brecht / Weill Threepenny Opera may be the first to so aggressively fill the stage with characters comprising the criminal underbelly of society, and pose as 'opera.'

It's act two finale, "What keeps mankind alive" (also translated and sung, "what keeps a man alive?") is an "agitprop socialist anthem," 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Keeps_Mankind_Alive%3F
a far less than comfortable message for many a middle class audience. It is often staged with the full chorus slowly and deliberately working its way to the very edge of downstage, which creates a feeling of a highly threatening "in your face" confrontation with the audience.

[Decades later, with the introduction of Les Miserables, we got a rather sanitized stage full of, by comparison, semi glamorous beggars, all more gentle folk compelled to steal bread for their families in order to eat, not cut-throat amoral murderers like Brecht's 'MacHeath'  ]

A Singspiel, certainly: an operette, Nein!, A 'musical' -- well, translation is just translation, and even if it isn't usually 'welcome' in an opera house, a 'musical' it ain't.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

moody said:


> It is an opera and was written as a satire on opera and operetta. With respect I don't need to be corrected on Kurt Weill.


Well, no offense, but your original post seemed to indicate the only reason you didn't want to classify it as a "musical" was because the genre itself is terrible, which is not a valid reason to not classify it that way. I'm willing to admit that it doesn't fit too well into most genres and that "Singspiel" is probably the best genre there is. It is certainly performed more like a musical noawadays (i.e. on Broadway) than as an opera, but to me it doesn't fit too well into either genre and it is going to be on the fringes of both if it is to be included in either one.

Interestingly enough, Kurt Weill created the term "Songspiel" to describe Mahoganny, because he didn't think "Singspiel" was perfectly accurate in that case.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Tristan said:


> Well, no offense, but your original post seemed to indicate the only reason you didn't want to classify it as a "musical" was because the genre itself is terrible, which is not a valid reason to not classify it that way. I'm willing to admit that it doesn't fit too well into most genres and that "Singspiel" is probably the best genre there is. It is certainly performed more like a musical noawadays (i.e. on Broadway) than as an opera, but to me it doesn't fit too well into either genre and it is going to be on the fringes of both if it is to be included in either one.
> 
> Interestingly enough, Kurt Weill created the term "Songspiel" to describe Mahoganny, because he didn't think "Singspiel" was perfectly accurate in that case.


I said that it was most certainly an opera. "Opera On Record" thinks that it's an opera and I've never heard it called anything else but an opera.
"The Magic Flute" is a singspiel and has been around longer than Weill's works.
I suppose you could refer to them as stage works if you prefer.

As for musicals,no I don't like many only a few e.g "An American In Paris".


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I certainly have a soft spot for some musicals. The Pirates of Penzance being an example. It's a simple, lighthearted affair with some wit and humor. I wouldn't rate it vs. The Godfather or even Horse Feathers as a great film but I enjoy it. I'm not a fan of Musicals as a genre nor do I care for the "Musical Scene" in general. I just like what I like and accept it for what it is.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

“Die Dreigroschenoper” picks up different genres, was conceived in a special way that is probably uniquely Brechtian and essentially political, but – since the music was so irresistible, had a very remarkable reception, was a smash and had hit tunes that were whistled on the streets, went to Broadway drastically altered … much later, Ella Fitzgerald invented her own lyrics to “Mack The Knife”, charmingly pretending that she’d forgotten the lines (which I don’t believe was actually the case), and won a Grammy for the performance … I think we’re looking at a work that transcends categories.

The author categorized his work as “Stück mit Musik” – “piece/play with music”. “Die Dreigroschenoper” is a direct reference to Gay’s “The Beggar’s Opera”. The prolog states that the opera was going to be as pompous as only beggars would be dreaming of, still as cheap so that also beggars would be able to pay to see it. I take this as a hint that the word “opera” was intended to be taken with a grain of salt.

Another thing to consider: The piece (unlike most of Weill’s other works) doesn’t necessarily call for classically trained voices. In fact, the original cast had no or only very basic training in that regard.

Regard the piece as an opera, musical, “Stück mit Musik”, – I don’t think anyone is really wrong, and I don’t think that any category really helps in one’s approach to the piece.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

scratchgolf said:


> I certainly have a soft spot for some musicals. The Pirates of Penzance being an example. It's a simple, lighthearted affair with some wit and humor. I wouldn't rate it vs. The Godfather or even Horse Feathers as a great film but I enjoy it. I'm not a fan of Musicals as a genre nor do I care for the "Musical Scene" in general. I just like what I like and accept it for what it is.


The Pirates Of Penzance is one of Gilbert and Sullivans' comic operas.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

One of the effects of belonging to a forum like TC is that it causes you to do research,or should do.
Looking further into the Kurt Weill story I found out that he studied with Busoni and wrote a large amount of "classical" music.
Once he took refuge in America however he did write musical shows such as "Knickerbocker Holiday", "Lady In the Dark", "Lost In the Stars" and he was writing a musical based on "Huckleberry Finn" but it was unfinished at the time of his death.
.


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