# Wagner newbie



## Gazzington (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi. I am quite new to classical music in general but have recently listened to solti Wagner ring cycle and loved it. I am interested in buying his other operas but wondering which versions to get? 

Any help appreciated


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Welcome Gazzington. 

Be careful what you wish for! On this forum seeking advice about matters Wagnerian can be fraught with danger. 

If you liked the Solti Ring you might like his take on Tannhauser and his second go at Meistersinger. Others will advise differently I expect.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Welcome Gazzington.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for! On this forum seeking advice about matters Wagnerian can be fraught with danger.
> 
> If you liked the Solti Ring you might like his take on Tannhauser and his second go at Meistersinger. Others will advise differently I expect.


Can of worms opening.... ;-)


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## Retrograde Inversion (Nov 27, 2016)

Assuming this isn't the best troll since Thrun the Last one (sorry, obscure gaming joke), I'd recommend sticking to older recordings from the 50s and 60s - the singers nowadays just don't seem to be up to the job.  The Historical Wagner Recordings thread would be a great place to look for info.


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## Valjuan (Dec 9, 2016)

Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic's reading of _Tristan und Isolde_. Trust me. You want this.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Assuming this isn't the best troll since Thrun the Last one (sorry, obscure gaming joke), I'd recommend sticking to older recordings from the 50s and 60s - the singers nowadays just don't seem to be up to the job.  The Historical Wagner Recordings thread would be a great place to look for info.


That did pass through my mind before I replied but what the hey, sometimes you've got to take things at face value. Now if I get asked to invest in some African money making scheme I might reconsider.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Valjuan said:


> Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic's reading of _Tristan und Isolde_. Trust me. You want this.
> 
> View attachment 90756


Second that. Also I would advice to try out Parsifal with Solti and Wiener Philarmoniker the same orchestra and conductor that performed the Ring you loved. And the recording of Lohengrin made by Rudolf Kempe and Wiener Philarmoniker.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Parsifal: Karajan or Kubelik
Meistersinger: Karajan or Jochum
Lohengrin: Kempe
Flying Dutchman: Klemperer
Rienzi: Hollreiser

And if you're one who likes opera recital albums, please consider getting Jonas Kaufmann's Wagner album. It is superb


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

OP, I hope you have a lot of money - or else access to a streaming music subscription!:lol:

You go down this road, you may never come back. 

ONE OF US
ONE OF US
GOOBLE GOBBLE


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tannhauser - Solti is really good

Lohengrin - Kempe

Tristan - Karajan with Denersch and Vickers for its sheer beauty, though I have also Karajan 1 (the most white hot), Furtwangler (classic) and Carlos Kleiber.

Mastersingers - Karajan 2 although Karajan 1 live is terrific but the sonics not so good.

Parsifal - I have an affection for Karajan's live performance with the greatest act 2 Sundry of all, but the sonics are not good. So Karajan 2 or Barenboim.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Valjuan said:


> Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic's reading of _Tristan und Isolde_. Trust me. You want this.
> 
> View attachment 90756


I have that. It's as good as the Bohm with Nielsen and Windgassen.

Don't listen much to Wagner anymore, but the two recordings, Barenboim and Bohm, are very fine.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Gazzington said:


> Hi. I am quite new to classical music in general but have recently listened to solti Wagner ring cycle and loved it. I am interested in buying his other operas but wondering which versions to get?
> 
> Any help appreciated


Are you _sure_ you are not a troll?  Get the Dutchmen of Klemperer and Keilberth, get the Tristans of Furtwängler and Böhm, get the Lohengrins of Kempe and Sawalllisch, get the Parsifals of Knappertsbusch and Kubelik, get the Meistersingers of Kubelik and Karajan.

Listen to all those, come back and ask again.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I have that. It's as good as the Bohm with Nielsen and Windergassen.


You mean Windgassen. Yes, the Böhm/Bayreuth Orchestra is also very good.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I have that. It's as good as the Bohm with Nielsen and Windergassen.


Brigitte Nielsen was one of Sylvester Stallone's wifes. I believe Birgit Nilsson once joked about being confused with that person. But who was this Windergassen?


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

My recommendations : 

Flying Dutchman - Klemperer 
Tannhäuser - Solti
Lohengrin - Kempe
Die Meistersinger - Kubelik (the best but expensive on CD) or Karajan
Tristan und Isolde - Furtwaengler or Boehm, both excellent
Parsifal - Knappertsbusch 1962


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

OP

Welcome! Very excited for you as you begin the Wagner journey... I would highly advise reading the entire "Historical Wagner Recordings" thread, in its entirety (set aside a few chunks of time). That thread accelerated my learning and enjoyment of Wagner, in addition to taxing my bank account... and worth every cent thus far! Also a plug for historical recordings purchased through the Pristine Classical website... hearing some of the best Wagner performances in impeccable clarity through the magic of Andrew Rose and his team.

Edit: Pristine is in the midst of updating and rebuilding their website, so you may have a little wait until they are back taking orders; they can be found on FB as well.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Come back Gazzington. All is forgiven!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Please, be kind to our newbies! :angel:


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

(Did I miss something?)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Reliable choices on which there is broad consensus, most with good modern sonics:

_Dutchman:_ There is no broad consensus! Ask someone else.
_Tannhauser:_ Solti is dynamic, with no major weaknesses in his cast.
_Lohengrin:_ Kempe, very strongly cast.
_Tristan:_ 1.) Bohm/Bayreuth 1966, intensely dramatic. 2.) Furtwangler 1952, mono sound but indispensable for Furtwangler's profound conducting and Flagstad's last Isolde.
_Meistersinger:_ 1.) Kubelik, fine all around. 2.) Kempe, mono, but beautifully conducted and with some matchless Wagner singers from the 1950s.
_Parsifal:_ Knappertsbusch/Bayreuth, live, 1962, the only Knappertsbusch _Parsifal_ in stereo, with a superb cast and a wonderfully spiritual sense of occasion.

After getting to know the operas through these, there are many other interesting choices, and many superb historical performances, some live from Bayreuth and elsewhere.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

cheftimmyr said:


> (Did I miss something?)


I think we both missed something, but not sure what. Mine was more of a general exhortation.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Gazzington said:


> Hi. I am quite new to classical music in general but have recently listened to solti Wagner ring cycle and loved it. I am interested in buying his other operas but wondering which versions to get?
> 
> Any help appreciated


I do hope you have a nice stay with us, quit a few topics about Wagner, so enjoy them.
My two cents: 
Tristan and Isolde conducted by Bernstein, very controversial but it's my desert island Tristan.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

cheftimmyr said:


> OP
> 
> Welcome! Very excited for you as you begin the Wagner journey... I would highly advise reading the entire "Historical Wagner Recordings" thread, in its entirety (set aside a few chunks of time). That thread accelerated my learning and enjoyment of Wagner, in addition to taxing my bank account... and worth every cent thus far! Also a plug for historical recordings purchased through the Pristine Classical website... hearing some of the best Wagner performances in impeccable clarity through the magic of Andrew Rose and his team.
> 
> Edit: Pristine is in the midst of updating and rebuilding their website, so you may have a little wait until they are back taking orders; they can be found on FB as well.


I would caution any beginner concerning historical recordings of Wagner., especially live recordings. The reason is the Limited recording quality however good the restoration, you can't restore what isn't there. They're OK for aficionados who know the operas well and can fill in what's missing. Wagner needs good recording quality.


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## Gazzington (Dec 12, 2016)

Thanks for your replies plus I did not mean to cause trouble. I was just wondering which versions of his operas may be best for a newbie. I shall look into your recommendations. Thanks


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2016)

And than there is one more beautiful Tristan,nobody can choose for you so take your time,You can't go wrong with this one.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Try going to your library before spending large sums on buying Wagner! Any Solti or Barenboim is worth a listen. Newbies might not be aware of just how much classical music is free of charge in libraries. My library also has hundreds of CDs that can be streamed online for free.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Post #20 from Woodduck would give a great starting point for anyone essaying into Wagner for the first time. For a Dutchman I would go for either Klemperer or Dorati.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I would caution any beginner concerning historical recordings of Wagner., especially live recordings. The reason is the Limited recording quality however good the restoration, you can't restore what isn't there. They're OK for aficionados who know the operas well and can fill in what's missing. Wagner needs good recording quality.


I would second that, and would like to recommend two of the more successful recordings in Marek Janowski's very well recorded cycle of the mature operas on the Penatone label.
Tristan und Isolde has the wonderful Nina Stemme & Stephen Gould in title roles his Die Meistersinger is also an excellent recording with no serious weak links in the large cast.
With these modern recordings much more of the internal detail of the orchestral writing can be heard clearly.

For Parsifal, I would choose Rafael Kubelik with Kurt Moll as Gurnemanz.

Also, if at all possible, try and get to a live performance for the real Wagnerian experience.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Today we are blessed with incredible music streaming services to access massive catalogs of opera music at insanely cheap monthly price, my best advice is to take note of any suggested recordings and then listen on spotify and especially Tidal HD (lossless CD quality) services, this is a critical starting tool for any new opera collector

When you find what you really like you can buy the physical CD set.............I just wish these were around 20+ years ago could have saved me a small fortune


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Morton said:


> I would second that, and would like to recommend two of the more successful recordings in Marek Janowski's very well recorded cycle of the mature operas on the Penatone label.
> Tristan und Isolde has the wonderful Nina Stemme & Stephen Gould in title roles his Die Meistersinger is also an excellent recording with no serious weak links in the large cast.
> With these modern recordings much more of the internal detail of the orchestral writing can be heard clearly.
> 
> ...


The Janowski Tristan seems to have polarised the critics. Before I buy it what's the opinion of my esteemed fellow Wagnerophiles on it? BTW If Wagnerophile isn't a real word it should be!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Tristan und Isolde - Carlos Kleiber. Great sound, inspired conducting, and a superb cast (Price, Fassbaender, Kollo, Fischer-Deiskau, Kurt Moll) that would be hard to beat.

(Not necessarily my favourite, but it's one of the best, and a great place to start.)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

cheftimmyr said:


> (Did I miss something?)


I think Siegendes was having a gentle chide at my post #17.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Gazzington said:


> Thanks for your replies plus I did not mean to cause trouble. I was just wondering which versions of his operas may be best for a newbie. I shall look into your recommendations. Thanks


Don't worry. We are all hardened Wagnerophiles and are perfectly capable of causing plenty of trouble ourselves!:lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Traverso said:


> And than there is one more beautiful Tristan,nobody can choose for you so take your time,You can't go wrong with this one.


Margaret Price's Liebestod alone is worth the price of this set. Quite sublime.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Gazzington said:


> Hi. I am quite new to classical music in general but have recently listened to solti Wagner ring cycle and loved it. I am interested in buying his other operas but wondering which versions to get?


Solti was a great Wagnerian, one of the greatest...try his Flying Dutchman with Chicago, or Parsifal/VPO.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> The Janowski Tristan seems to have polarised the critics. Before I buy it what's the opinion of my esteemed fellow Wagnerophiles on it? BTW If Wagnerophile isn't a real word it should be!


'Wagnerophiles', I like that, although l'm not sure you need the 'o'!

Your post got me thinking & re-listening to the many Tristan's I have collected over the years. Currently, if I had to choose one I think, that with a combination of performance and sound quality, it would be Barenboim with Siegfried Jerusalem & Waltraud Meier.
I also have a great affection for Reginald Goodall's recording with the Welsh National Opera, which was the first live Tristan I saw.
Nina Stemme & Stephen Gould were my last Tristan and Isolde, which may have helped to influence my first choice of Janowski.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I would caution any beginner concerning historical recordings of Wagner., especially live recordings. The reason is the Limited recording quality however good the restoration, you can't restore what isn't there. They're OK for aficionados who know the operas well and can fill in what's missing. Wagner needs good recording quality.


I don't consider myself an aficionado yet and I only had 2 studio recordings of Wagner before I went I to the historical recordings so my experience would be different I guess. The quality of vocals from the "Golden Age" is so high that I never felt like I was missing out. I remember an HvK Tristan ('52?) that I found to be less than stellar (sound wise) and one from Immortal Performances that was from 1937 (Bodanzky) which was a tough listen.

I'll agree to disagree with David A; My Wagner listening has been 4:1 live historical recording to studio/modern. Both have pros and cons... but I keep returning to the "Historical" recordings... As long as you're listening to Wagner you're in good shape!


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I would caution any beginner concerning historical recordings of Wagner., especially live recordings. The reason is the Limited recording quality however good the restoration, you can't restore what isn't there. They're OK for aficionados who know the operas well and can fill in what's missing. Wagner needs good recording quality.


Excellent point. The whole orchestral beauty with Wagner's richness of colors of sound should be heard live or on good sound recordings first.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Tristan und Isolde - Carlos Kleiber. Great sound, inspired conducting, and a superb cast (Price, Fassbaender, Kollo, Fischer-Deiskau, Kurt Moll) that would be hard to beat.


Certainly a fascinating recording worth listening. But way over the hill DFD, way too light Rene Kollo and Isolde-at-the-microphone Price should prevent you from calling it a hard to beat cast.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Morton said:


> 'Wagnerophiles', I like that, although l'm not sure you need the 'o'!


I think you need the vowel to break up the running together of two consonants at the end of Wagner and the start of phile.

I'm still fond of the Bayreuth Bohm Tristan and there is a very fine NY Met performance from 1960 with Bohm, Vinay and Nilsson. And Pappano with Stemme and Domingo isn't half bad either.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

What's wrong with Wagnerians?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

interestedin said:


> What's wrong with Wagnerians?


Absolutely nothing. As bibliophile often refers to someone with a great love of books I like to think of someone who has a great love of Wagner as a Wagnerophile but no problem, I handle rejection extremely well.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I should mention that my favourite Hollander is the 1936 Stuttgart radio broadcast with Teschemacher, Nissen, Ralf and Weber in wonderful voice. Leonhardt conducts with pace and the orchestra is quite adequate. The sound is pretty good for its age but it is the three act version which is used and isn't to everyone's taste. But the outstanding singing for me transcends all else.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Absolutely nothing. As bibliophile often refers to someone with a great love of books I like to think of someone who has a great love of Wagner as a Wagnerophile but no problem, I handle rejection extremely well.


Excellent reply......:cheers:


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

cheftimmyr said:


> I don't consider myself an aficionado yet and I only had 2 studio recordings of Wagner before I went I to the historical recordings so my experience would be different I guess. The quality of vocals from the "Golden Age" is so high that I never felt like I was missing out. I remember an HvK Tristan ('52?) that I found to be less than stellar (sound wise) and one from Immortal Performances that was from 1937 (Bodanzky) which was a tough listen.
> 
> I'll agree to disagree with David A; My Wagner listening has been 4:1 live historical recording to studio/modern. Both have pros and cons... but I keep returning to the "Historical" recordings... As long as you're listening to Wagner you're in good shape!


I tend to agree. Superb sound on a recording is great, and maybe even ideal; however nothing beats a transcendent performance, and not even inferior recording quality can dull its affect. By contemporary standards, if you want to listen to performances in decent sound you'll have to limit yourself to recordings made after 1960. Some might even say 1980. But if you want to find the finest interpretations of Wagner, you will simply have to get used to less immediately impressive sound, since the greatest period of Wagner performances was roughly between 1920 and 1960, with exceptions of course. It is worth seeing whether you can get used to lo-fi, for if you can there are treats in store that are simply denied you if you insist on listening to more recent studio recordings. It is amazing how the ear can adjust to huge quantities of surface noise, just as at parties, when you may well feel, for the first few minutes, that it will be impossible to hear anything anyone says. I vividly remember my first encounter with Tristan und Isolde being Furtwängler's 1952 mono recording and being overwhelmed and transformed by it. I wouldn't trade that experience for any recording by Barenboim or Kleiber or Pappano with a more brilliant sound, not in a million years.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I agree that it is worth trying to get to use to lower quality sound, but I still wouldn't recommend one go there first. Personally, even though I was listening to symphonies and concertos from the 40s and 50s, I had no interest in opera recordings of the era. Or at least, I didn't until I got to know the works first, through newer recordings and DVDs and live performances.

But it's going to work differently for everybody. And I guess my main idea with listening to this is that I don't think forcing anything is a good idea. If older recordings are compelling, great! If they are not working for you, there are modern recordings with a lot to offer, too.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I've tried the low quality sound/high quality performance albums. The quality of the performances are lost on me. I'm not a snob or an audiophile but I am literally unable to discern with my ears the high quality performance if the sound is very poor. I wish it were not so...but it's just how it is for me.

I'm not a big fan of Tristan, but for a Wagner newbie let me also recommend Bohm's recording. Along with Barenboim it is my favorite. Let me reword this: Waltraud Meier on Barenboim's recording is my favorite Isolde, Bohm's version is my favorite for everything else.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

interestedin said:


> Certainly a fascinating recording worth listening. But way over the hill DFD, way too light Rene Kollo and Isolde-at-the-microphone Price should prevent you from calling it a hard to beat cast.


DFD is simply awful on the Kleiber set. The voice has just gone. Why he was asked to do it is a mystery. Kollo is also past his best. The reason for having it is Price's Isolde and Klveiber's conducting.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Pugg said:


> I do hope you have a nice stay with us, quit a few topics about Wagner, so enjoy them.
> My two cents:
> Tristan and Isolde conducted by Bernstein, very controversial but it's my desert island Tristan.


Yessssssssss...........


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sonata said:


> I've tried the low quality sound/high quality performance albums. The quality of the performances are lost on me. I'm not a snob or an audiophile but I am literally unable to discern with my ears the high quality performance if the sound is very poor. I wish it were not so...but it's just how it is for me.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of Tristan, but for a Wagner newbie let me also recommend Bohm's recording. Along with Barenboim it is my favorite. Let me reword this: Waltraud Meier on Barenboim's recording is my favorite Isolde, Bohm's version is my favorite for everything else.


There are a few that demand to be heard - e.g. the Act 1 Walkure with Lehmann and Melchior or the Karajan 1952 Tristan. But mostly I'd say that modern recording is essential for Wagner


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> I tend to agree. Superb sound on a recording is great, and maybe even ideal; however nothing beats a transcendent performance, and not even inferior recording quality can dull its affect. By contemporary standards, if you want to listen to performances in decent sound you'll have to limit yourself to recordings made after 1960. Some might even say 1980. But if you want to find the finest interpretations of Wagner, you will simply have to get used to less immediately impressive sound, since the greatest period of Wagner performances was roughly between 1920 and 1960, with exceptions of course. It is worth seeing whether you can get used to lo-fi, for if you can there are treats in store that are simply denied you if you insist on listening to more recent studio recordings. It is amazing how the ear can adjust to huge quantities of surface noise, just as at parties, when you may well feel, for the first few minutes, that it will be impossible to hear anything anyone says. I vividly remember my first encounter with Tristan und Isolde being Furtwängler's 1952 mono recording and being overwhelmed and transformed by it. I wouldn't trade that experience for any recording by Barenboim or Kleiber or Pappano with a more brilliant sound, not in a million years.


Totally agreed; if you listen to The Ring Cycle and never hear a Hans Hotter interpretation of Wotan, you are missing one of the greatest artists to ever interpret the role.

I also made a small investment to improve my stereo equipment and found that to make a huge difference in listening experience with the older recordings... again, depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go to experience Wagner...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> I tend to agree. Superb sound on a recording is great, and maybe even ideal; however nothing beats a transcendent performance, and not even inferior recording quality can dull its affect. By contemporary standards, if you want to listen to performances in decent sound you'll have to limit yourself to recordings made after 1960. Some might even say 1980. But if you want to find the finest interpretations of Wagner, you will simply have to get used to less immediately impressive sound, since the greatest period of Wagner performances was roughly between 1920 and 1960, with exceptions of course. It is worth seeing whether you can get used to lo-fi, for if you can there are treats in store that are simply denied you if you insist on listening to more recent studio recordings. *It is amazing how the ear can adjust *to huge quantities of surface noise, just as at parties, when you may well feel, for the first few minutes, that it will be impossible to hear anything anyone says. I vividly remember my first encounter with Tristan und Isolde being Furtwängler's 1952 mono recording and being overwhelmed and transformed by it. I wouldn't trade that experience for any recording by Barenboim or Kleiber or Pappano with a more brilliant sound, not in a million years.


It's fine for aficionados who know the music well to listen to old recordings. What the brain is unconsciously doing, of course, is filling in the parts that the recording does not show. Remember the Furtwangler recording of Tristan was one of the best of Legge's recordings so the sound is not such a problem. However, when we come to recordings made in less than ideal studio conditions then the sound is dim indeed. So as I say I would not recommend older recordings to a newcomer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> I vividly remember my first encounter with Tristan und Isolde being Furtwängler's 1952 mono recording and being overwhelmed and transformed by it. I wouldn't trade that experience for any recording by Barenboim or Kleiber or Pappano with a more brilliant sound, not in a million years.


Same for me. Furtwangler's understanding of the romance and tragedy of _Tristan_ is unsurpassed, but so is his ability to conjure up its nocturnal magic. His second act is beyond comparing with anyone else's, his delineation of all Wagner's rich polyphony a feat of dark magic, his Brangaene's warning from the tower orgasmic in its beauty. Just recalling it makes me shudder.

What else can I say about this performance? Other conductors may convey the sheer intensity of the opera as well or, at times, better, and this isn't the only _Tristan_ you need (no performance of Tristan is definitive), but if you haven't heard it you don't fully understand this opera or its unique stature and influence among works for the lyric stage.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am not a Wagner newbie, far from it, but I am returning to Tristan for the first time in decades (which I write about in more detail elsewhere.) Tristan was not a work that I ever really engaged with and we shall see if that changes. To be totally honest, the only Wagner operas which I would now go out of my way to attend now would be Flying Dutchman, Rheingold, Gotterdammerung and (perhaps) Meistersinger. (And yes, I have attended a complete Ring cycle in one week.) One thing that I know is true for me is that a modern, stereo recording of a Wagner opera is definitely the best way to get into a work in order to mentally tease out the many musical threads that make up these complex works.


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## mrpeterson (Dec 15, 2016)

I recommend a great tool I found online. It's called the "Online Partitur Player" and can be found at http://partitur.org. There you can watch a lot of Wagner's works with full score, music, video and text at a glance.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Furtwangler was my introduction to Tristan, and I had a very different experience to it. To me Bohm captures more beauty and intensity in the prelude. The vocals felt like so much shouting. To be fair I've never listened to the recording in its entirety. I've never been able to. I've accepted that the recording just doesn't work for me the way it does for others. I was much earlier in my opera journey at the time and maybe not ready for Wagner at all yet, but so far I've still not been compelled to listen to the full recording.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Furtwangler was my introduction to Tristan, and I had a very different experience to it. To me Bohm captures more beauty and intensity in the prelude. The vocals felt like so much shouting. To be fair I've never listened to the recording in its entirety. I've never been able to. I've accepted that the recording just doesn't work for me the way it does for others. I was much earlier in my opera journey at the time and maybe not ready for Wagner at all yet, but so far I've still not been compelled to listen to the full recording.


Don't try to listen through the whole opera. Skip around. Furtwangler and Bohm both give strong interpretations, but they emphasize different qualities. Bohm has more driving, febrile energy, and thinks in phrases. Furtwangler is more patient and thinks in paragraphs, keeping the long line and letting the intensity accumulate. He is the only conductor I've heard under whom the climax of the prelude feels completely inevitable and crushing in its power. Listen to the opening scene of act two in both recordings. Hear the way Furtwangler makes the woodwinds weave and float and sing in the orchestral introduction, conjuring the breezes and fragrances of a summer night. Hear the way the distant horn calls transform into the murmuring of water. Hear the mystery and beauty of Isolde's invocation of "Frau Minne." Move ahead to the orchestral passage during which Tristan and Isolde lie down on the bank of flowers before "O sink hernieder," how it settles into a profound serenity and timelessness, then listen to the orchestra under Brangaene's warning. Neither Bohm nor anyone else can match Furtwangler at these and many other moments. If you don't hear that this is conducting on the highest level, just put the recording away for a few years.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Morton said:


> 'Wagnerophiles', I like that, although l'm not sure you need the 'o'!


Wagnerliebhaber!

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

^ Ja, ja, die Wagner-Verrückten - the Wagner-crazies 

I will join the camp of those who suggest starting one's Wagnerian journey with newer and high-quality recordings.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Some things have been said concerning sound quality of live recordings versus studio. While it's true that live recordings usually have inferior sound, there are some exceptions. For example, the Bohm Tristan is a live recording but its sound is excellent (better than most studio recordings of that era), and there is hardly any coughing or distracting stage noise. I'm sure others here can point to similar instances.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Logos said:


> Some things have been said concerning sound quality of live recordings versus studio. While it's true that live recordings usually have inferior sound, there are some exceptions. For example, the Bohm Tristan is a live recording but its sound is excellent (better than most studio recordings of that era), and there is hardly any coughing or distracting stage noise. I'm sure others here can point to similar instances.


I have always found the Bayreuth acoustic puts distance between the listener and performance which is not really what you want in a recording. In Bohm's Tristan Windgassen is balanced most unfavourably much of the time.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Longtime audiophile here: I'm guessing that I'm more picky about the home audio side of this than 99% of people here, and I'd pick the following historical recordings over any modern ones: Bayreuth 1953, 1955, 1957, 1958 Rings, 1962 Parsifal. I don't think any of those (and there are others too) require any accommodation for the orchestra and provide the best voices. Those are the ones I've been learning on while the 1980 digital set sits unplayed. 

I'm listening right now to the 1958 Walkure and the sound is outstanding. 

Of course, two recordings have the best of both worlds so the "sound vs performance" choice is a false one: the 1955 cycle and the 1962 Parsifal. I don't consider those as "recordings" but rather as found treasures. We are lucky to have them.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Gazzington said:


> Hi. I am quite new to classical music in general but have recently listened to solti Wagner ring cycle and loved it. I am interested in buying his other operas but wondering which versions to get?
> 
> Any help appreciated


I am curious how someone quite new to classical music found their way to a complete Ring cycle?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Don't try to listen through the whole opera. *Skip around*. Furtwangler and Bohm both give strong interpretations, but they emphasize different qualities. Bohm has more driving, febrile energy, and thinks in phrases. Furtwangler is more patient and thinks in paragraphs, keeping the long line and letting the intensity accumulate. He is the only conductor I've heard under whom the climax of the prelude feels completely inevitable and crushing in its power. Listen to the opening scene of act two in both recordings. Hear the way Furtwangler makes the woodwinds weave and float and sing in the orchestral introduction, conjuring the breezes and fragrances of a summer night. Hear the way the distant horn calls transform into the murmuring of water. Hear the mystery and beauty of Isolde's invocation of "Frau Minne." Move ahead to the orchestral passage during which Tristan and Isolde lie down on the bank of flowers before "O sink hernieder," how it settles into a profound serenity and timelessness, then listen to the orchestra under Brangaene's warning. Neither Bohm nor anyone else can match Furtwangler at these and many other moments. *If you don't hear that this is conducting on the highest level, just put the recording away for a few years*.


Already have done both  I'm glad it's such a rewarding recording for so many though.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> I am curious how someone quite new to classical music found their way to a complete Ring cycle?


Just lucky..............


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Just lucky..............


I was going to say just like you......


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Maybe the Teutonic gods led him to it


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## Gazzington (Dec 12, 2016)

I heard some wagner at a friend's house and was intrigued by it. Actually felt emotional and other feelings that I have not had from any music for a long time. I then bought solti's ring cycle. Feels like I am on a new journey in music and feel happier than I have for a long time.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Gazzington said:


> I heard some wagner at a friend's house and was intrigued by it. Actually felt emotional and other feelings that I have not had from any music for a long time. I then bought solti's ring cycle. Feels like I am on a new journey in music and feel happier than I have for a long time.


Being on the right place at the right time, .......miracles do happen from time to time.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Gazzington said:


> *I heard some wagner at a friend's house* and was intrigued by it. Actually felt emotional and other feelings that I have not had from any music for a long time. I then bought solti's ring cycle. Feels like I am on a new journey in music and feel happier than I have for a long time.


You are lucky to have at least one very good friend.


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