# Round One: Norma- Ite sul colle, o Druidi. Pasero, Pinza, Chaliapin



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Ite sul colle, o Druidi · Vittorio Gui Norma ℗ 1951 Nuova Fonit Cetra SpA Vocals: Adriana Perris Vocals: Ebe Stignani Vocals: Emilio Renzi Vocals: Gina Cigna Vocals: Giovanni Breviario Orchestra: Orchestra Sinfonica e Coro di Torino della Rai Vocals: Tancredi Pasero 




Ite sul colle, o Druidi (Norma) · Ezio Pinza · Metropolitan Opera House Chorus and Orchestra Lebendige Vergangenheit - Ezio Pinza 




Norma: Ite sul colle, o Druidi! · Vincenzo Bellini · Feodor Chaliapin Great Opera Singers / Bass Arias & Songs / Recordings 1910 - 1928


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

There is something dissatisfying about Oroveso's arias. When I heard my first version of Norma, I complained, that he doesn't "thunder" properly and that I need a differerent cast. However, he never "thunders" properly, regardless of who is singing it, it is just written that way. The first Oroveso, Negrini, had "a weak heart", so Bellini was soft at him. I have also seen an argument, that he needn't be threatening, which may be correct, but Bellini had plans to rewrite him anyway. Unfortunately, Bellini died young, so we don't know what he imagined.

So, what to do ? Pasero is the best at sounding monumental, within these constraints. Pinza sounds lighter and more natural, I went to check wikipedia, if he was a real bass. Wikipedia said he was, but with "unusual flexibility". Chaliapin, about whom even I know that he was famous, somehow bothered me, a bad recording quality and the diction or timing of his voice felt incorrect. (as compared to Zaccharia, who lives in my head).

I'll vote for Pinza, for the effect of unusual.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I don't know this aria nor opera well, but I'm a big fan of Pinza's, he and Plancon being my two fave basses. I really enjoy the way he uses his voice in everything he sings. I think Pinza belongs on the short list of greatest voices of all time and my vote is his.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Despite his potent instrument, Chaliapin's relentless roar and Russian-tinged Italian vowels rule him out. I expect him to burst into the "Song of the Viking Guest" at any moment. Pasero has a powerful voice and makes an imposing Oroveso, and if I prefer Pinza slightly it's only because of the innate beauty of his timbre, which makes me think of dark velvet.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

It took Chaliapin a little bit to get going. He sounded like an old man just getting up and stretching.
Somehow his voice doesn't have the appeal that Pinza's does. A thumbs up as well forPasero.
But for me it is Ezio!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> It took Chaliapin a little bit to get going. He sounded like an old man just getting up and stretching.
> Somehow his voice doesn't have the appeal that Pinza's does. A thumbs up as well forPasero.
> But for me it is Ezio!


I really love Pasero and Ezio. Glad you are enjoying these. I would love to have seen movies of the young Pinza as he was so handsome. I think Chaliapin might have been better earlier. Also it was so huge, which you don't get from recordings.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I have to confess that Oroveso's arias were always the bits I'd only listen to with half my attention, whilst waiting for the opera proper to get going. Indeed that may well have been the purpose of them; a chance for the audience to settle down before we got to the man story. As such I hadn't paid that much attention to them, aside from noting that Zaccaria was my favourite on all the Callas recordings I have.

Here we have three wonderful basses and I enjoyed all these performances, though I think Pinza and Chaliapin provided the most interesting performances. I suppose I agree with most that Chaliapin's dark, Russian voice is the least suited to the music, but he was a very great singer and I found his performance riveting, commanding and actually quite thrilling.
But then Pinza had those qualities too and his beautiful _basso cantate_ is possibly more suited to Bellini's music. 
I'm voting for Pinza, but with a nod to the great Chaliapin, who is never dull.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

An interesting tangent...

Oroveso's music is not what we love _Norma_ for, and Wagner evidently felt that this was a deficit that needed a remedy. As a young music director he was a great advocate for Bellini; he wanted to popularize the latest Italian operas in German-speaking places, and in 1837 he wrote an aria for Oroveso to sing in act 2. The composition of it preceded his work on _Rienzi_ by a year. It doesn't sound exactly like Bellini, but it's not incongruous, it's rousing, and it gives the bass something to take a bow for.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> An interesting tangent...
> 
> Oroveso's music is not what we love _Norma_ for, and Wagner evidently felt that this was a deficit that needed a remedy. As a young music director he was a great advocate for Bellini; he wanted to popularize the latest Italian operas in German-speaking places, and in 1837 he wrote an aria for Oroveso to sing in act 2. The composition of it preceded his work on _Rienzi_ by a year. It doesn't sound exactly like Bellini, but it's not incongruous, it's rousing, and it's gives the bass something to take a bow for.


Bellini planned to write a more impressive Oroveso's aria once he got rid of health problems- burdened Negrini. He wanted to give his favorite bass Lablache an opportunity to show off. It is possible, the info about these plans reached Wagner after Bellini's death. Wagner wrote his alternative Oroveso's aria for that same great bass, Lablache. However, Lablache refused to sing it, and it remained not performed for years. Now I know of two complete recordings of Norma which used it.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have to confess that Oroveso's arias were always the bits I'd only listen to with half my attention, whilst waiting for the opera proper to get going. Indeed that may well have been the purpose of them; a chance for the audience to settle down before we got to the man story. As such I hadn't paid that much attention to them, aside from noting that Zaccaria was my favourite on all the Callas recordings I have.


I actually like the esoteric / mystical air of the first act aria (which is in this contest). I just feel it is not as majestic as one would expect. 

It is the second act aria, which bores me to death. Waiting for the finale through this ? Come on ! I usually skip it. However, I found out quite recently, Bellini used the elements of the Beethoven's moonlight sonata in it, which I didn't notice, but I am interested now, so I plan to give it a proper listening. Another interesting thing is, that Bellini recycled the second act Oroveso's aria _twice_. Was this music so dear to him, that he didn't want it to be forgotten ? It was in Bianca e Fernando first and in Zaira next, until he placed it in Norma.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I'd never been a big Norma guy until I was blown away by the Radvanovsky live. I'm a believer now but don't know the opera well and don't really know what is expected of Oroveso. But inferring backwards from the strength of Norma herself I find I expect something a little more like the force of nature approach I hear in both Pasero and Chaliapin. Pinza sounds like he's keeping a little too much of his Don Giovanni elegance. Choosing between the other two is almost impossible. I've always loved Chaliapin when he doesn't go nuts and thats, of course, without really knowing what attractive colors might be in the voice because the recordings are so old. Pasero sounds fantastic. I'd think he'd be what you would be hoping for in any performance.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I'd never been a big Norma guy until I was blown away by the Radvanovsky live. I'm a believer now but don't know the opera well and don't really know what is expected of Oroveso. But inferring backwards from the strength of Norma herself I find I expect something a little more like the force of nature approach I hear in both Pasero and Chaliapin. Pinza sounds like he's keeping a little too much of his Don Giovanni elegance. Choosing between the other two is almost impossible. I've always loved Chaliapin when he doesn't go nuts and thats, of course, without really knowing what attractive colors might be in the voice because the recordings are so old. Pasero sounds fantastic. I'd think he'd be what you would be hoping for in any performance.


What wouldn't we give to hear any of these guys on our stages? Instead the Met gives us Michele Pertusi (as Creonte in today's broadcast of _Medea). _


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> What wouldn't we give to hear any of these guys on our stages? Instead the Met gives us Michele Pertusi (as Creonte in today's broadcast of _Medea). _


He was good, huh?....  
When I started (1970) listening, Morris was quite a ways from his Wagner career and the Met had him and Paul Plishka for role after role, some big some not, kind of like what stars like Pinza and Rothier apparently did back in the day. I'm not saying Plishka was Pinza but you knew what you were going to get every time his name was up there and you looked forward to it!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> He was good, huh?....
> When I started (1970) listening, Morris was quite a ways from his Wagner career and the Met had him and Paul Plishka for role after role, some big some not, kind of like what stars like Pinza and Rothier apparently did back in the day. I'm not saying Plishka was Pinza but you knew what you were going to get every time his name was up there and you looked forward to it!


That's close to the time I began listening to Met broadcasts. I remember Plishka well. Good reliable bass. I'm not sure, but he may have been King Marke in the Met _Tristan_ I attended in 1972. Alas, that performance is better forgotten except for Nilsson, who was the main reason I went to see it. Poor Helge Brilioth literally lost his voice toward the beginning of act 3, after which we all just watched him gesticulate and waited for the Liebestod.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Had a similar experience with an Aida.It's one of the most excruciating memories I have!


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