# Mozart vs Beethoven



## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

In the spirit of conciliatory posts...


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## Andante Largo (Apr 23, 2020)

There should be additional options: both and none


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

We've had several polls on this already, not so long ago: Favorite of the Big Three (poll)

Anyway, I think both are apples and oranges; Mozart has good things of the old age, whereas Beethoven has of the new age.
While generally I feel more "depth of dissonance" and fluidity in the part-writing of Mozart, (I don't mean "musical depth", which I don't think either of them lacks), Mozart doesn't quite have the "poetic content" of Beethoven, the "fantastic feel" of the Romantic lied. And Beethoven tends to be less "predictable" in cadential resolutions. ("predictability" wasn't really a bad thing in the 18th century, it was more like a Classical virtue).
I also can understand why people find Beethoven to be more "majestic", "heroic"; Beethoven was good at bringing out his kind of drama, but I think there are merits in Mozart's sense of drama as well.

I prefer the vocal music of Michael Haydn and instrumental music of Carl Philip Emanuel over Schubert and Berlioz. I'm generally more drawn to the older sounds in these situations (late 18th century vs early 19th century), which perhaps may explain my preference for Mozart over Beethoven.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Poll: Mozart or Beethoven?*

Ok. But give me a chance to listen to something by these guys first. I wouldn't want to rush to an uninformed decision.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Mozart AND Beethoven.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Beethoven and Mozart, in no particular order .


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

RogerWaters said:


> In the spirit of conciliatory posts...


What's the question RW?


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

well in Ca. from KUSC during there vote about the top 250 Beethoven is in the top 10 a few times. here is the top 9 of the 
votes

1. Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphony #9
2. George Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue
3. Antonin Dvorak: Symphony No. 9
4. Sergei Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto No. 2
5. Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphony #6
6. Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphony #7
7. Ludwig van Beethoven: Piano Concerto #5
8. Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphony #5
9. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Requiem


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

They were both tremendously great. Mozart was more of a "natural" while Beethoven had (or created for himself) more of an opportunity to make his own path. I wouldn't want to do without either.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

As they were both so decidedly great in both so decidedly different I can’t see how one can choose between them


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

It's impossible for me to choose one. Although, when I was younger (teens/early adulthood) I would have said Beethoven without pause. Then, I was attracted to Beethoven for his sense of struggle and heroism. As I approached age 40 or so, the dawn of middle age, I went through a Bach phase as I became more focused on religion and the great existential questions of life. Now as I'm well into my 50s, I have finally come around to Mozart. At one time, I saw Mozart as basically pretty wall-paper/background music, but now I just enjoy Mozart's craftsmanship, the seamless sense of balance and beauty. My other life-long passion besides classical music is chess; so to me, Mozart is like one of those great positional chess players such as Capablanca, Smyslov, Petrosian, or Karpov, where every move just seems to make perfect sense; and Jose Capablanca has been identified by any a chess enthusiast as the "Mozart of Chess." 

Someone mentioned that Mozart was a "natural". Another beautiful thing about Mozart is that the music just seems to create itself. Whether it's music, or sports, or chess, or writing, art, or great acting; I don't think there is really any such thing as a "natural". Some people have a way of making things that are difficult look easy and effortless; but I think the ones who make it look the easiest are usually the ones who work the hardest to make it appear that way.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Beethoven is definitely more worthy of being part of the Three Bs than Mozart.

Mozart, on the other hand, is surely the best composer of The Magic Flute.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Beethoven is definitely more worthy of being part of the Three Bs than Mozart.
> 
> Mozart, on the other hand, is surely the best composer of The Magic Flute.


How about the three Ms?

Mozart, Mendelssohn & Mahler


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

A beetroot farmer VS a scummy marsh dweller. This is not much to go on... I take it said individuals can play the reedflute or boneskin well? I will purchase both for 3 silver.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I prefer Beethoven over any composer except Wagner. But, although some unfortunate excesses on my part in recent posts may indicate otherwise, I actually also love Mozart, and would surely bring something by him to that desert island.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

If I could only bring one of the 2 composers to a desert island, I'd bring Beethoven's catalog. It has more variety of style and technique than Mozart. I dare Hammeredklavier to argue that.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> If I could only bring one of the 2 composers to a desert island, I'd bring Beethoven's catalog. It has more variety of style and technique than Mozart. I dare Hammeredklavier to argue that.


I don't think that's really true. There are big differences between early and late Mozart, Mozart was better at writing vocal music, and Beethoven lived 20 years longer than Mozart did.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

If I could bring both composer's music to a deserted island, I would still throw away Beethoven's music.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

consuono said:


> I don't think that's really true. There are big differences between early and late Mozart, Mozart was better at writing vocal music, and Beethoven lived 20 years longer than Mozart did.


I don't think that Mozart is better than Beethoven at writing vocal music, just different. Some of Beethoven's major, atemporal masterpieces are vocal: the Ninth symphony, the Missa Solemnis, the opera Fidelio. And if it's true that Beethoven lived more than Mozart, it should be noted also that he only really started his career as a composer much later than Wolfgang, in his twenties; before this his focus was trying to become a respectable keyboardist.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> If I could only bring one of the 2 composers to a desert island, I'd bring Beethoven's catalog. It has more variety of style and technique than Mozart. I dare Hammeredklavier to argue that.


I guess when people think of Mozart, they usually think of stuff like 'Che soave zeffiretto' from Le nozze di figaro or the arias of the C minor mass K.427 (which I find rather "generic" (only the arias), I find his vespers and litanies (K.243, 195) more interesting). And I think it's been like 10 years since I heard the adagio of the clarinet quintet for one last time. I mean it's good, but I don't see how it's better than K.616, for example. I also don't listen to K.452 very often, and I find stuff like K.475, K.511, K.546, K.540, K.608 more interesting. (the dizzying chromaticism in the ending of K.608, in particular, is memorable).
I keep saying this as an emphasis, - Whenever I hear the Tristan prelude, I think of Mozart K.428 and K.533 and those Mozart pieces always remind me of the Tristan plreude, -wouldn't this be a good enough a reason to think Mozart also has a lot of variety throughout his ouevre?
Beethoven studied this piece, btw.

*[ 8:47 ]*


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allerius said:


> I don't think that Mozart is better than Beethoven at writing vocal music, just different. Some of Beethoven's major, atemporal masterpieces are vocal: the Ninth symphony, the Missa Solemnis, the opera Fidelio. And if it's true that Beethoven lived more than Mozart, it should be noted also that he only really started his career as a composer much later than Wolfgang, in his twenties; before this his focus was being a respectable keyboardist.


But Beethoven still had those extra 20 years to develop. I do think Mozart was more adept and graceful at writing for voice. He was practicing that kind of writing more often than Beethoven. I love the Missa solemnis, but as purely vocal writing Mozart's "Great" C minor Mass and other liturgical music is better. Yes there's Fidelio...but name me something from that opera other than the overture. That's not really a knock on Beethoven; I think Beethoven's solo piano music is better. Different composers have different strengths.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'll put my money on Pretty Boy Mozart, but only if I can get three to one odds. Otherwise it's the Bonn Bruiser. Obviously.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

consuono said:


> But Beethoven still had those extra 20 years to develop.


Mozart had many years to develop as a composer before Beethoven, considering that his career composing blossomed already in his childhood. Besides, he didn't become deaf.



consuono said:


> I do think Mozart was more adept and graceful at writing for voice. He was practicing that kind of writing more often than Beethoven. I love the Missa solemnis, but as purely vocal writing Mozart's "Great" C minor Mass and other liturgical music is better. *Yes there's Fidelio...but name me something from that opera other than the overture.* That's not really a knock on Beethoven; I think Beethoven's solo piano music is better. Different composers have different strengths.


If I could listen only to one moment from Fidelio for the rest of my life, I would choose the _Chorus of Prisoners_, not the overture. I think that it displays a dreamer, humanist, intimate side of the composer that really connects with me in a different way than any Mozart. If Fidelio wasn't a masterpiece overall and all that it had was a good overture then I don't think that it would still be produced so frequently nowadays in it's entirety.






About Mozart practicing vocal music more often than Beethoven: quantity does not mean quality. _More_ is not _better_. Not in my opinion at least.

P.S.: I'm not saying that Mozart's vocal music doesn't have quality.


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

For me,

Mozart is better than Beethoven as it is only Moonlight Sonata that I adore from Beethoven but there are many I like from Mozart but also not as much as Moonlight Sonata, which is one single piece of Beethoven.


However,

Vivaldi is better than Bach, Mozart, Beethoven (all of them). But Moonlight Sonata is very exceptional side of Beethoven. It is the strongest weapon of Beethoven and it is indeed very, very strong.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allerius said:


> ...
> 
> About Mozart praticing vocal music more often than Beethoven: quantity does not mean quality. _More_ is not _better_. Not in my opinion.


No, but when you're having to write vocal music constantly for a paying public it would tend to hone your skill. Same case as with Handel. That chorus is fine, but musically I still don't think it can touch Figaro.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

consuono said:


> *No, but when you're having to write vocal music constantly for a paying public it would tend to hone your skill.* Same case as with Handel. That chorus is fine, but musically I still don't think it can touch Figaro.


Yes, but producing large bodies of vocal music doesn't necessarily make one great at it, otherwise the compositions for voices of Telemann and Schütz for example would have much more prestige today among non-casual listeners than they have, don't you agree?

Telemann composed more pieces than Bach and Handel together, so he must have honed his skills a lot. Is he a better composer than them?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I dare Hammeredklavier to argue that.


I often listen to vocal music from late 18th century, I think Michael Haydn's _Missa tempore quadragesimae_ and _Missa sancti nicolai tolentini_, and Joseph's _Missa sunt bona mixta malis_, parts of Christian Bach's _Missa da requiem_ are fairly decent, but I haven't found anything in this time period that approaches Mozart's level of manipulation and assimilation of "stile antico". 
I also can instantly tell apart a Mozart missa brevis from one by Salieri, for example, - this is illustrated in <
View attachment 130858
>
"On the other hand, for the French, Mozart was certainly not 'one of us' from a national point of view. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, before Berlioz's time, some influential critics - for instance, Julien-Louis Geoffroy - rejected Mozart as a foreigner, considering his music 'scholastic', stressing his use of harmony over melody, and the dominance of the orchestra over singing in the operas - all these were considered negative features of 'Germanic' music."

I think all these things are overlooked by the classical music community today.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Yes, but producing large bodies of vocal music doesn't necessarily make one great at it,


I didn't say that it did. We're taking about Mozart here, not Telemann. When you start out with more, and you hone your skill in a certain area, it will become apparent. But Telemann was indeed a fine and under-appreciated composer. Bach and Handel had a high opinion of him.

Bottom line: Mozart was better at vocal music. End of.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Bach is just a mainstream Telemann. All the real critics know that Telemann is better.

Telemann is greater than Bach.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> Bach is just a mainstream Telemann. All the real critics know that Telemann is better.
> 
> Telemann is greater than Bach.


Well that settles it. Thank you for participating, Allerius. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I guess consuono has a good point, but I can also understand Allerius's position; he personally finds the Beethoven chorus more "nostalgic" than anything by Mozart ( "I think that it displays a dreamer, humanist, intimate side of the composer that really connects with me in a different way than any Mozart" ). Different people find different things nostalgic. Who can blame Allerius for his aesthetic preference? In the same way, people might consider Mozart K.194, for example, just some trivial juvenilia not worth discussing -but I have some sort of "fetish" for this sort of archaic sounds of the Salzburg cathedral. Whenever Mozart goes into minor, (like at 8:38, for example) he sounds so "resolute". I like that.






Classical music is enjoyed only by less than 1% of the entire population today, but I feel there's a bit too much bickering about which composers/musicians are "overrated" or don't deserve the recognition/popularity they get. I think threads like <Your unpopular opinion> are too full of it, which seems a bit pointless to me at times. I guess when people feel their favorite music isn't loved enough, they like to blame on others for it.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Classical music is enjoyed only by less than 1% of the entire population today, but I feel there's a bit too much bickering about which composers/musicians are "overrated" or don't deserve the recognition/popularity they get. I think threads like <Your unpopular opinion> are too full of it, which seems a bit pointless to me at times. I guess when people feel their favorite music isn't loved enough, they like to blame on others for it.


I think it helps if you play an instrument. Then you can put the bickering and debate aside and immerse yourself in the music you love. I've been trying to learn those Bach keyboard concerti, and wow, what wonderful music...and tough to play! The last movement of the E major concerto is as tough as anything in the Goldberg Variations.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

consuono said:


> I think it helps if you play an instrument. Then you can put the bickering and debate aside and immerse yourself in the music you love. I've been trying to learn those Bach keyboard concerti, and wow, what wonderful music...and tough to play! The last movement of the E major concerto is as tough as anything in the Goldberg Variations.


Frankly I can't Understand the bickering debates about unpopular opinions etc. There is so much to share in what we love. I mean why put Mozart against Beethoven anyway. Can't we just like them both equally?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

consuono said:


> I didn't say that it did. We're taking about Mozart here, not Telemann. When you start out with more, and you hone your skill in a certain area, it will become apparent. But Telemann was indeed a fine and under-appreciated composer. Bach and Handel had a high opinion of him.
> 
> Bottom line: Mozart was better at vocal music. End of.


I understand that your point was that Mozart was a better vocal composer than Beethoven because he improved by composing more pieces for voices. My point is that this may not necessarily be true, as there are cases of composers that did compose a lot of music, including music for voices, and that doesn't seem to receive so much appraisal by non-casual listeners nowadays as others who composed less music. I don't think that Telemann isn't a great composer, but nevertheless I felt like using his example to illustrate my point because I feel that few people would trade Bach's two hundred cantatas for Telemann's one thousand, or Bach's two passions for Telemann's dozens, and as an evidence of this I offer you the link to a TC poll where the preference for J.S. Bach in terms of baroque music seems absolute. In the moment I write this, Bach has 65 votes against zero for Telemann in that poll.

As member hammeredklavier said, I have my aesthetic preferences, and to me it isn't clear who the greatest vocal composer is between the two giants of music that Mozart and Beethoven are.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> I don't think that Telemann isn't a great composer, but nevertheless I felt like using his example to illustrate my point because I feel that few people would trade Bach's two hundred cantatas for Telemann's one thousand, or Bach's two passions for Telemann's dozens,


Oh yeah, Telemann was good but not *that* good. :lol: I was just being tongue-in-cheek.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"The music collection of the Salzburg cathedral contains more sacred vocal music of the mid-18th century (ca. 1730-80) than any other period. An inventory of this large collection, recently undertaken by this writer at the request of Domkapellmeister Prof. Josef Messner, shows that Mozart's predecessors and colleagues in the archbishop's service are represented by an imposing amount of liturgical music. Among these musicians none seems to have been more industrious than *Johann Ernst Eberlin* (1702-62). There is evidence in the number of works preserved: a thematic catalog contains, so far, approximately 70 Masses, Mass fragments and Requiems, 160 motets and other smaller works, 37 litanies, 14 sequences and hymns, 35 settings of individual or grouped vesper psalms, and 3 Te Deum. This list does not include the large amount of sacred music in the vernacular. Aside from such first-hand evidence there is the well-known testimony of Eberlin's younger colleague, Leopold Mozart. In his report on the Salzburg musical establishment in 1757, the older Mozart singled out Eberlin for his industry and speed in composing, comparing him to Alessandro Scarlatti and Telemann. At the time of Leopold Mozart's writing Eberlin had risen, from the position of fourth organist in 1725, to the highest rank of Hof-und Domkapellmeister (1749) and had recently been granted the added honorary appointment of Titular-Truchsess.
Both Leopold and his son thought highly of Eberlin's ability; from their testimony and from other evidence it appears that Eberlin's reputation was primarily based on his contrapuntal works. Wolfgang Mozart's remarks are significant: while eventually he modified his high opinion of Eberlin's keyboard works (the only works to be published during the composer's lifetime) he continued to esteem his vocal writing."
<Johann Ernst Eberlin's Motets for Lent / Reinhard G. Pauly / Journal of the American Musicological Society (1962) 15 (2): 182-192.>


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

consuono said:


> I didn't say that it did. We're taking about Mozart here, not Telemann. When you start out with more, and you hone your skill in a certain area, it will become apparent. But Telemann was indeed a fine and under-appreciated composer. Bach and Handel had a high opinion of him.
> 
> Bottom line: Mozart was better at vocal music. End of.


Mozart's early masses and vocal works are on a much higher level than his orchestral output of the same period.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Allerius said:


> I understand that your point was that Mozart was a better vocal composer than Beethoven because he improved by composing more pieces for voices. My point is that this may not necessarily be true, as there are cases of composers that did compose a lot of music, including music for voices, and that doesn't seem to receive so much appraisal by non-casual listeners nowadays as others who composed less music. I don't think that Telemann isn't a great composer, but nevertheless I felt like using his example to illustrate my point because I feel that few people would trade Bach's two hundred cantatas for Telemann's one thousand, or Bach's two passions for Telemann's dozens, and as an evidence of this I offer you the link to a TC poll where the preference for J.S. Bach in terms of baroque music seems absolute. In the moment I write this, Bach has 65 votes against zero for Telemann in that poll.
> 
> As member hammeredklavier said, I have my aesthetic preferences, and to me it isn't clear who the greatest vocal composer is between the two giants of music that Mozart and Beethoven are.


A great composer will no doubt profit more from experience than a lesser talent. Mozart made the most of his commissions at Salzburg and it's a shame he did not compose more masses in his maturity - or at least complete the mass in c minor.

His church music and substantial operatic output frankly put him ahead of Beethoven in quantity and quality for vocal.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> A great composer will no doubt profit more from experience than a lesser talent. Mozart made the most of his commissions at Salzburg and it's a shame he did not compose more masses in his maturity - *or at least complete the mass in c minor.*


If you enjoy the Mass in C minor - I do - I really suggest you to check K. 469 if you didn't already. It's a cantata Mozart wrote in 1785 that uses a lot of material from the mass, albeit with another text and some new musical material (two arias and a cadenza) that may have been intended for the mass. It's a finished piece.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> Mozart's early masses and vocal works are on a much higher level than his orchestral output of the same period.


I agree. For example, I think _Missa in honorem sanctissimae trinitatis K.167_, (not the G minor symphony K.183) is the best work he produced in 1773. As I said before, it shows many of his "eccentricities", which would be more fully realized in his later works.





For example, this spontaneous chromaticism ( 3:52 ) that he uses to modulate the piece from G minor to E major seems to foreshadow the "dodecaphonic" finale of his own K.550 symphony:

L. Bernstein: "The most breathtaking chromatic trip of all occurs in the final movement, which begins innocently enough, and isn't too eventful tonally throughout the whole exposition. But then, again comes the development section, and all hell breaks loose.
Do you realize that, that wild, atonal-sounding passage contains every one of the twelve chromatic tones except the tonic note G? What an inspired idea.. all the notes except the tonic.
It could easily pass for twentieth-century music, if we didn't already know it was Mozart.
But even that explosion of chromaticism is explainable in terms of the circle of fifths, not that I'd dream of burdening you with it. Take my word for it, that out-burst of chromatic rage is classically contained, and so is the climax of this development section, which finds itself in the unlikely key of C-sharp minor, which is as far away as you can get from the home key of G minor.
And, again, believe me; all these phonological arrivals and departures to and from the most distantly related areas operate in the smoothest, the most Mozartian way, under perfect diatonic control."

Also, look at the chromaticism of the et incarnatus est, 9:47 ~ 11:47. With its phrases of ascending chromatic fourths, it seems to foreshadow his own dissonance quartet K.465.

I also once talked about the way to orchestrate the credo's concluding fugue, which I find remarkable:
"I find the Et vitam venturi (17:39) from Missa in honorem Sanctissimae Trinitatis K167 remarkable how, in the middle of the fugal development, Mozart starts to gradually hint and nudge at the original Credo material (18:42) with strings, and uses the material to eventually reach a climax (19:19). Not sure how to describe it, but it conceptually reminds me of what the piano does in the midst of orchestral tutti in the beginning of Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No.2 (albeit they're completely different in style and genre)."

The string figures of the beginning of the missa also reminds me of a work by an older colleague of his at the cathedral:

*[ 9:00 ]*





Btw, there's a guy named "K A Nesiah" on youtube who keeps saying the dona nobis pacem of the Mozart missa foreshadows the seid umschlungen of Beethoven's 9th. I'm not quite sure if he's right.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Btw, there's a guy named "K A Nesiah" on youtube who keeps saying the dona nobis pacem of the Mozart missa foreshadows the seid umschlungen of Beethoven's 9th. I'm not quite sure if he's right.


I think that he may be right, and more, I believe that some themes from the _Eroica_ and the fifth symphony for example also come from Mozart. This shouldn't be a surprise considering how much Beethoven admired the composer and was influenced by him, and I don't think that this detracts anything from his works, considering how original they are in terms of style and innovations.

Since the times of cantus firmus it's a common practice for composers to sometimes quote music of others in their own. People such as J.S. Bach, Mahler, Bartók and, why not, Mozart himself, among many others, did this (for example, the Requiem quotes Handel and the _Magic Flute_'s overture, Clementi).


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

It seems like Beethoven is the greater composer at this stage...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Coach G said:


> It's impossible for me to choose one. Although, when I was younger (teens/early adulthood) I would have said Beethoven without pause. Then, I was attracted to Beethoven for his sense of struggle and heroism. As I approached age 40 or so, the dawn of middle age, I went through a Bach phase as I became more focused on religion and the great existential questions of life. Now as I'm well into my 50s, I have finally come around to Mozart. At one time, I saw Mozart as basically pretty wall-paper/background music, but now I just enjoy Mozart's craftsmanship, the seamless sense of balance and beauty. My other life-long passion besides classical music is chess; so to me, Mozart is like one of those great positional chess players such as Capablanca, Smyslov, Petrosian, or Karpov, where every move just seems to make perfect sense; and Jose Capablanca has been identified by any a chess enthusiast as the "Mozart of Chess."
> 
> Someone mentioned that Mozart was a "natural". Another beautiful thing about Mozart is that the music just seems to create itself. Whether it's music, or sports, or chess, or writing, art, or great acting; I don't think there is really any such thing as a "natural". Some people have a way of making things that are difficult look easy and effortless; but I think the ones who make it look the easiest are usually the ones who work the hardest to make it appear that way.


I think an article I read said Carlsen is the young Mozart of chess, these days.

M vs B, only their works (mature) can be ranked objectively.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> I think an article I read said Carlsen is the young Mozart of chess, these days.
> 
> M vs B, only their works (mature) can be ranked objectively.


Yes, Magnus Carlsen is another one of those very methodical, positional, players.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> I think that he may be right, and more, I believe that some themes from the _Eroica_ and the fifth symphony for example also come from Mozart. This shouldn't be a surprise considering how much Beethoven admired the composer and was influenced by him, and I don't think that this detracts anything from his works, considering how original they are in terms of style and innovations.
> Since the times of cantus firmus it's a common practice for composers to sometimes quote music of others in their own. People such as J.S. Bach, Mahler, Bartók and, why not, Mozart himself, among many others, did this (for example, the Requiem quotes Handel and the _Magic Flute_'s overture, Clementi).







Yeah, those Mozart-Beethoven examples of similar phrases, by themselves, are not the most striking examples to me, for the reasons you described. The ending of Die zauberflote overture may be a bit similar to that of the scherzo from Beethoven's Eroica symphony, but I find the similarity between the opening of Mozart's Bastien und bastienne overture and that of the Eroica symphony not at all striking. (In fact, I rather find the example of Eberlin-Mozart connection in my previous comment more striking)

Likewise, I don't find the similarity between Mozart's Die zauberflote overture and Clementi's op.24 no.2 very striking either. Because the theme seems to me like a typical, generic classical-era melodic phrase to me. For example, this vesper was written in 1780 (just an year prior to the Clementi sonata) and it contains what seems to be a phrase similar to those in the Clementi and Mozart:

*[ 2:58 ]*





(Btw, Clementi made money by making solo-piano transcriptions of Mozart works such as the F minor Fantasie K.608 and Die zauberflote overture. He included a note saying that he wrote this theme before Mozart did in the published score of his sonata as a marketing strategy. To be honest, I think he was making too big of a deal out of it.)

In the case of Mozart-Wagner though, I think the connection is more than just "phrases", it seems to me there is a significantly striking connection of harmonic structure at work:





(albeit Wagner uses a half-diminished 7th (built on F) in his climax, as opposed to the dominant 7th (also built on F) of Mozart's K.533)








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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

RogerWaters said:


> It seems like Beethoven is the greater composer at this stage...


I bet Mozart's pissed.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Allerius said:


> If you enjoy the Mass in C minor - I do - I really suggest you to check K. 469 if you didn't already. It's a cantata Mozart wrote in 1785 that uses a lot of material from the mass, albeit with another text and some new musical material (two arias and a cadenza) that may have been intended for the mass. It's a finished piece.


I know about this piece but have resisted listening to it - probably feeling it a shame that Mozart borrowed from the mass in c minor to craft another work when really what he should have done is complete the mass. Still - I will have a listen after all these years.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Coach G said:


> Yes, Magnus Carlsen is another one of those very methodical, positional, players.


Our chess club put on a sanctioned tournament. Walter Browne the grandmaster was playing this international master in a fast and furious endgame. All of a sudden one of our members came in through the door with his brand-new digital calculator (four large red digits). Well, somehow the chessboard of the grandmaster ended up on the floor. Our referee was just a local guy and he didn't know what to do.. And they just kept on playing and hitting the clock and writing down their moves. ...it was over very quickly.

Back to the topic. It seems unfair to compare Mozart and Beethoven unless you want to give points to Mozart for living 30 years earlier in the trends of musical development. Also Mozart had the disadvantage of needing to please the audiences of his time and setting, while Beethoven could compose without that hanging over his head.

I read that at one point in his life Mozart was worth $500,000 in today's money.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> I know about this piece but have resisted listening to it - probably feeling it a shame that Mozart borrowed from the mass in c minor to craft another work when really what he should have done is complete the mass. Still - I will have a listen after all these years.


Instead of thinking that Mozart borrowed earlier material for the cantata, I like to think that he actually decided to finish his project in a different way. For me, the cantata is the realization of his work in the mass, and I think that this is the reason for this latter to have remained unfinished. I have no problem listening to it.



Luchesi said:


> It seems unfair to compare Mozart and Beethoven unless you want to give points to Mozart for living 30 years earlier in the trends of musical development. Also Mozart had the disadvantage of needing to please the audiences of his time and setting, while Beethoven could compose without that hanging over his head.


I disagree with this point. If it was true that composing later means composing better, then the best classical music should be the one composed nowadays and there wouldn't be a point in listening to the likes of Josquin, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven etc. Is Ketèlbey better than J.S. Bach because he lived years later in the trends of musical development and didn't need to please his audiences like the Baroque master? I don't think so.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

From what I remember, Mozart wrote the K.427 mass as a result of a vow to God (he vowed that he would write a mass to glorify Him if his wife recovered her health). 3 years later, Mozart thought the mass was actually pretty good and wanted to make money off it. Someone commissioned a cantata from him and he just reused the whole mass to write the cantata.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> From what I remember, Mozart wrote the K.427 mass as a result of a vow to God (he vowed that he would write a mass to glorify Him if his wife recovered her health). 3 years later, Mozart thought the mass was actually pretty good and wanted to make money off it. Someone commissioned a cantata from him and he just reused the whole mass to write the cantata.


I don't think that he would compose the cantata just to make money out of a work that may have been important to him, but that's just my opinion.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> In his report on the Salzburg musical establishment in 1757, the older Mozart singled out Eberlin for his industry and speed in composing, comparing him to Alessandro Scarlatti and Telemann.
> Both Leopold and his son thought highly of Eberlin's ability; from their testimony and from other evidence it appears that Eberlin's reputation was primarily based on his contrapuntal works. Wolfgang Mozart's remarks are significant: while eventually he modified his high opinion of Eberlin's keyboard works (the only works to be published during the composer's lifetime) he continued to esteem his vocal writing."


btw, I speculate that Mozart's use of arpeggiated, syncopated figures in vocal music also has its roots in the Salzburg tradition, most probably passed on from guys like Eberlin and Adlgasser.
(I don't find them in vocal music by other guys like Joseph Haydn or the Bach Brothers)

Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - Missa in C




Michael Haydn requiem in C minor (1771):




Michael Haydn Missa in honorem sanctae Ursulae (1792):




Michael Haydn (1737-1806) - Missa in Honorem Sancti Gotthardi (1792):





Mozart missa brevis K.194 in D major (1774):




Mozart requiem in D minor (1791):


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