# Mozart is a Thief!!



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Typical of Mozart to steal from his teacher . Talentless hack.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Good composers borrow. Great ones steal.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It wasn't theft since there were no laws or copyright. J.S. Bach stole from Vivaldi and many others ...






Where do you suppose he got all those dances he put in the French, English and orchestral suites, not to mention the partitas for keyboard?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

larold said:


> It wasn't theft since there were no laws or copyright. J.S. Bach stole from Vivaldi and many others ...


Especially in Bach's day, it was considered a compliment to have something of yours turn up in another composer's work.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Typical of Mozart to steal from his teacher . Talentless hack.


J. Haydn was never Mozart's teacher, he may have been a mentor.

"... it is interesting that, having influenced Haydn, Bach (CPE) later allowed himself to be influenced by the younger composer, just as Haydn later influenced and was influenced by Mozart. ..."

compare the string figures in measure 9 of Confitebor tibi domine from Mozart Vesperae solennes de confessore (1780)
with those of Gloria from Haydn Schöpfungsmesse (1801)
---
Mozart Symphony No. 25 in G Minor, K. 183: I. Allegro con brio (1773)
Mozart Missa longa K.262 - "mortuorum" (1775)
J. Haydn - Hob XXII:12 - Mass in B flat major "Theresienmesse" - agnus dei (1799)
---
Mozart Symphony No. 40 in G Minor, K. 550: II. Andante (1788)
Erblicke hier, betörter Mensch from Haydn oratorio Die Jahreszeiten (1801)
---
Adagio introduction from Mozart: String Quartet No.19 In C, K.465 - "Dissonance" (1785)
Die Vorstellung des Chaos from Haydn oratorio Die Schöpfung (1798)
( "... Yet he remained a bit flummoxed by this opening, saying only "if Mozart wrote it he must have meant it." This from the composer who, later on, would make a musical depiction of Chaos resolved into blinding C Major light in The Creation. ..." )
---
the way the first movements open:
Mozart - String Quartet No. 15 in D minor K. 421 (1783)
Haydn - String Quartet Op. 76, No. 2 in D minor 'Quinten' (1797)
---
Agnus Dei from Mozart Krönungsmesse (1779)
Agnus Dei from Haydn Harmoniemesse (1802)
Adagio from symphony No.98 (1792)


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Lots of nationalist composers used tunes they knew from their counties. Bartok and Smetana are two that comes to mind first. Both Elgar and Vaughan Williams wrote on the basis of English melodies. Charles Ives wrote many works that incorporated hymn tunes he knew from church.

Even Beethoven's _Rage Over a Lost Penny_ piano rondo is first attributed to Anton Schindler.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Hey! Santana stole from Brahms! Even admitted so


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Dw all I was totally joking... Mozart's Jupiter Symphony is one of my favorite pieces and I'm not "accusing" Mozart of anything... I just think the resemblance is uncanny and cool!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Maybe Mozart just listened to his copy of the Dorati set too many times, and it imprinted.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hey! Santana stole from Brahms! Even admitted so


I read it as "Santa stole from Brahms". Well, there is some semblance to be sure...


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hey! Santana stole from Brahms! Even admitted so


And very tastefully, I might add - love Love of My Life. Nothing new, lots of non-classical musicians have stolen from classical music.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Fabulin said:


> I read it as "Santa stole from Brahms". Well, there is some semblance to be sure...
> 
> View attachment 145479


That's Jo-ho-ho-hannes Brahms on the right.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Eric Carmen's successful pop music career was largely based on stealing from Rachmaninov. I believe wkasimer's quote was made by none other than Stravinsky.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Actually Santa stole from Schubert.






At 4:18.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> J. Haydn was never Mozart's teacher, he may have been a mentor.
> 
> "... it is interesting that, having influenced Haydn, Bach (CPE) later allowed himself to be influenced by the younger composer, just as Haydn later influenced and was influenced by Mozart. ..."
> 
> ...









Mozart considered him a teacher


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Waldesnacht said:


> Actually Santa stole from Schubert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha. I remember that cartoon. Brilliant arrangement.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Hmm this 1771 work sounds familiar to some other work from 1791.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Waldesnacht said:


> Actually Santa stole from Schubert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As long as he defeated the Martians.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Dw all I was totally joking... Mozart's Jupiter Symphony is one of my favorite pieces and I'm not "accusing" Mozart of anything... I just think the resemblance is uncanny and cool!


Keep in mind that Mozart's very first symphony, (which also contains the Missa pange lingua credo theme 'C-D-F-E'), was written in 1764, whereas J. Haydn's 13th symphony was written just one year earlier, 1763.
I don't think Mozart consciously modeled his compositions on J. Haydn until the Milanese and Viennese string quartets of 1772~3, where J. Haydn's Sun quartets (Op.20) were the inspiration.














I find this example more striking:

Michael Haydn Symphony No.28 in C, MH 384 (1784): III. Fugato. Vivace assai
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Symphony No.41 in C, K.551 (1788): IV. Molto allegro
(Also Mozart's K.291 is his copy, (which he made for study purposes) of the fugato finale from M. Haydn's 22nd symphony.)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"The music collection of the Salzburg cathedral contains more sacred vocal music of the mid-18th century (ca. 1730-80) than any other period. An inventory of this large collection, recently undertaken by this writer at the request of Domkapellmeister Prof. Josef Messner, shows that Mozart's predecessors and colleagues in the archbishop's service are represented by an imposing amount of liturgical music. Among these musicians none seems to have been more industrious than *Johann Ernst Eberlin* (1702-62). There is evidence in the number of works preserved: a thematic catalog contains, so far, approximately 70 Masses, Mass fragments and Requiems, 160 motets and other smaller works, 37 litanies, 14 sequences and hymns, 35 settings of individual or grouped vesper psalms, and 3 Te Deum. This list does not include the large amount of sacred music in the vernacular. Aside from such first-hand evidence there is the well-known testimony of Eberlin's younger colleague, Leopold Mozart. In his report on the Salzburg musical establishment in 1757, the older Mozart singled out Eberlin for his industry and speed in composing, comparing him to Alessandro Scarlatti and Telemann. At the time of Leopold Mozart's writing Eberlin had risen, from the position of fourth organist in 1725, to the highest rank of Hof-und Domkapellmeister (1749) and had recently been granted the added honorary appointment of Titular-Truchsess.
Both Leopold and his son thought highly of Eberlin's ability; from their testimony and from other evidence it appears that Eberlin's reputation was primarily based on his contrapuntal works. Wolfgang Mozart's remarks are significant: while eventually he modified his high opinion of Eberlin's keyboard works (the only works to be published during the composer's lifetime) he continued to esteem his vocal writing."
<Johann Ernst Eberlin's Motets for Lent / Reinhard G. Pauly / Journal of the American Musicological Society (1962) 15 (2): 182-192.>


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Haydn is a Thief!!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

pjang23 said:


> Hmm this 1771 work sounds familiar to some other work from 1791.


and also some other work from 1763:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)




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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Judge Judy is a thief!


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Herschel Burke Gilbert wrote the film score for *The Thief* (1952)


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Fabulin said:


> I read it as "Santa stole from Brahms". Well, there is some semblance to be sure...
> 
> View attachment 145479


Sure. But could Brahms have written "Jingle Bells"?

(I like Santa's music. Sometimes. Once a year. Around Christmas time.)


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

What is stealing? Did Johann Reincken accuse JS Bach for his transcription of his first suite from his Hortus Musicus? Do not impose capital-communist mentality onto classical composers.



> "The three greatest composers are Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. All the others are cretins." - Hans von Bülow


Hans von Bulow is no the last judge on music, he is like himself says, a cretin, even a cretin among the cretins. Thanks to this comment, I can openly nail a bad composer for the first time: Hans von Bulow.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Ariasexta said:


> What is stealing? Did Johann Reincken accuse JS Bach for his transcription of his first suite from his Hortus Musicus? Do not impose capital-communist mentality onto classical composers.


"You shall not steal"
8th commandment out of 10
written by God (a prime capitalist)


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Prodromides said:


> "You shall not steal"
> 8th commandment out of 10
> written by God (a prime capitalist)


A chinese proverb: A thief is always the quickest to accuse the others. （贼喊捉贼，恶人先告状）

Bernard Shaw: "Imitation i s not just the sincerest form of flattery, it is the sincerest form of learning."

Aristotle:"For imitation is natural to man, man differs from the animals particularly in this, that he is imitative, and acquires his rudiments of knowledge in this way."

Voltaire: " A good imitation is the most perfect originality."

I highly value bold imitations of the others with the result of superlative products, the vulgars will never understand the greatness of the sincere and humble imitations.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

My vote for Mozart's greatest thievery was his Symphony No. 37.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> The music collection of the Salzburg cathedral contains more sacred vocal music of the mid-18th century (ca. 1730-80) than any other period. An inventory of this large collection, recently undertaken by this writer at the request of Domkapellmeister Prof. Josef Messner, shows that Mozart's predecessors and colleagues in the archbishop's service are represented by an imposing amount of liturgical music.


I speculate that Mozart's use of arpeggiated, syncopated figures in vocal music also has its roots in the Salzburg tradition, most probably passed on from guys like Eberlin and Adlgasser.
(I don't find them in vocal music by other guys like Joseph Haydn or the Bach Brothers)

Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - Missa in C - 3:30
Michael Haydn requiem in C minor (1771) - 0:55
Michael Haydn Missa in honorem sanctae Ursulae (1792) - 0:10
Michael Haydn (1737-1806) - Missa in Honorem Sancti Gotthardi (1792) - 17:20

Mozart missa brevis K.194 in D major (1774) - 11:06
Mozart requiem in D minor (1791) - 0:40 , 26:52

-----

All these might just be general elements of a tradition, (rather than borrowings between individuals), I'm not entirely certain.

M. Haydn Missa sti. Gabrielis MH 17: crucifixus (1768) 
W.A. Mozart spaurmesse K.258: crucifixus (1776)

M. Haydn Missa sancti Raphaelis MH 87: kyrie (1768) 
W.A. Mozart spatzenmesse K.220: kyrie (1775)

use of muted trumpets -
L. Mozart missa solemnis in C: crucifixus (before 1764)
W.A. Mozart waisenhausmesse K.139: crucifixus (1768)

use of melody: "F-C-C-.."
L. Mozart missa solemnis in C: laudamus te (before 1764)
W.A. Mozart Litaniae lauretanae de beata Maria Virgine: kyrie (1771)

use of strings as introduction and accompaniment for concluding fugue -
W.A. Mozart missa in honorem sanctissimae trinitatis K.167: cum sanctu spiritu (1773)
M. Haydn Missa in honorem sanctae Ursulae MH 546: cum sanctu spiritu (1792)

use of strings -
M. Haydn Missa sancti nicolai Tolentini MH 109: gloria (1768)
W.A. Mozart missa in honorem sanctissimae trinitatis K.167: kyrie (1773)


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Do you call inspiration theft? Most of the renowned composers were influenced by Bach: Mozart, Mendelssohn, who loved Bach immensely, Beethoven, Brahms,Shostakovich!and i don't think borrowing from his art is theft. Haydn influenced both Mozart and Ludwig van. These two geniuses influenced most of the Romantic composers : Schubert,Schumann, Brahms, Wagner, Bruckner etc.This works like a tradition really, like a chain rather*.You get inspired by( call it whatever you want) a piece and if you're original and creative, you'll add something of you're own to that. This, in my humble opinion, is what matters. However, there are some who remain imitators for the rest of their life( Richard Wetz! I hate him!)
*For example Brahms' first symphony has moments of Beethoven's ninth in the fourth movement . Hans Rott's only symphony has moments of Brahms' first symphony. This is what i mean by working like a chain.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ned Low said:


> Do you call inspiration theft? Most of the renowned composers were influenced by Bach: Mozart, Mendelssohn, who loved Bach immensely, Beethoven, Brahms,Shostakovich!and i don't think borrowing from his art is theft. Haydn influenced both Mozart and Ludwig van. These two geniuses influenced most of the Romantic composers : Schubert,Schumann, Brahms, Wagner, Bruckner etc.This works like a tradition really, like a chain rather*.You get inspired by( call it whatever you want) a piece and if you're original and creative, you'll add something of you're own to that. This, in my humble opinion, is what matters. However, there are some who remain imitators for the rest of their life( Richard Wetz! I hate him!)
> *For example Brahms' first symphony has moment of Beethoven's ninth in the fourth movement . Hans Rott's only symphony has moments of Brahms' first symphony. This what i mean by working like a chain.


Agreed. Also I feel these elements of connection




are severely overlooked by everyone these days


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Needless to say,Wagner admired Mozart. If he borrowed from him( in this case Tristan's prelude or for his other works), we shouldn't be really surprised.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>


The musical context in which these excerpts were extracted seems different to me, I don't really see any true connection between them. Just because there are some thematic resemblances in pieces by two composers it doesn't mean that there's a link between them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> The musical context in with these excerpts are extracted seems different to me, I don't really see any true connection between them. Just because there are some thematic resemblances in pieces by two composers it doesn't mean that there's a link between them.


No, these are more than just "thematic resemblances", (I would call something like Mozart's Bastien und Bastienne overture and Beethoven's Eroica symphony a mere "thematic resemblance").
I talked about it before:

Look at measure 18 in the slow movement (A flat major, 6/8) of Mozart String Quartet K.428:

View attachment 125240


if you transpose this up a semitone to A major, it looks like this:
View attachment 125241


D -------------------------
---G#---A ---A#--- B --- C#
---B --- A ---G#-------
--------- F ---E ----------------

Now look at this passage in Wagner Tristan und Isolde Prelude (A major, 6/8):
View attachment 125242


D--------------------------
---G#---A ---A# --- B --- C#
B-------------
F--------------E--G#-B---- E

Also look at the ways to reach climax (before falling with arpeggios to the reprise of the initial material) in both Wagner and Mozart (K.533), with a 7th chord built on F.
Wagner uses a half-diminished 7th. Mozart uses a dominant 7th.
*[ 5:05 ]*


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

^^

Is there any evidence that Wagner borrowed from Mozart in his _Tristan_ prelude? Do you know any famous author that agrees with your view?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> Is there any evidence that Wagner borrowed from Mozart in his _Tristan_ prelude? Do you know any famous author that agrees with your view?


Yes. 
View attachment 137199

The Aesthetic State: A Quest in Modern German Thought, By Josef Chytry, Page 291


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> and also some other work from 1763:


Wow, that's almost "verbatim". Still though I think it's a question of whether the "thief" improves on what is "stolen", and I think Mozart did. Just as (in my opinion, anyway) Bach's arrangement of Pergolesi's Stabat Mater is musically superior to the original.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Maybe Mahler should have done some "stealing", it might have helped him make some good music.


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