# Sibelius, Nielsen... more Nordic noises, please!



## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

I would love to find more music with some of that wonderful elemental Nordic tang I hear in Sibelius and Nielsen. Where should I go next? 
Atterberg, Alfven, Stenhammar, Rangstrom? Which of these (or which others) approach the great JS and CN for you?
Listened to Stenhammar's Second and Alfven's Fourth this morning and enjoyed both...


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)




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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

I'm not sure about "Nordic noise" but I have found the symphonies of Richard Wetz to supply me with something kinda like Sibelius.... there is of course, only one Sibelius.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Geirr Tveitt & Harald Sæverud from Norway!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> *Geirr Tveitt *& Harald Sæverud from Norway!


Yup - Tveitt's _Hundred Hardanger Tunes_ (available on Naxos, for instance) are very enjoyable


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Jeffrey Smith said:


>


Thanks! Those all look very fine - and are quite expensive as complete cycles. Any recommendations for individual symphonies to sample from each?


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Klassic said:


> I'm not sure about "Nordic noise" but I have found the symphonies of Richard Wetz to supply me with something kinda like Sibelius.... there is of course, only one Sibelius.


I know, 'noise' was my ham-fisted alliteration. 
I will cock an ear to Wetz.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> *Gade,
> Atterberg,
> Holmboe.*


Hello good friend, thank you for mentioning these unique works (also thank you to the original poster for making this thread). I think the best threads are the ones where we get the chance to discover new music. So I have a question for you Jeffrey Smith: I want to listen to a symphony by Gade and a symphony by Holmboe (as I'm familiar with Atterberg), which symphonies should I start with first?


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Lars-Erik Larsson (1908-1986) may be to your taste. I think his Lyric Fantasy (op.54) approaches Sibelius.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

I am quite tempted to shell out a not astronomical sum for that Alfven set I mentioned at the top. Been listening to #1 and #4 today and I must say I'm quite taken. Thoughts on Alfven?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2016)

I have somewhere around 80 or so Nordic composers on my iPod, did you really want them all?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nielsen and Sibelius were unique voices. Nobody else comes close. The only place I would look is into other works by these two composers.
There's plenty of their works to choose from.


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## Johnhanks (Feb 21, 2016)

Hilding Rosenberg's symphonies are worth a listen. Those of Rued Langgaard are a must, though he was very much a school of one.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

nathanb said:


> I have somewhere around 80 or so Nordic composers on my iPod, did you really want them all?


No, I want your top five, if you'll pardon / work with the reductivism.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Nielsen and Sibelius were unique voices. Nobody else comes close. The only place I would look is into other works by these two composers.
> There's plenty of their works to choose from.


Fair point, I need to delve deeper into both, knowing only the two symphony cycles and Sibelius' tone poems.
I don't know, I have this thing about getting to know a new composer through their symphony cycle, I suppose - finding the symphony, by a certain distance, the most satisfying and slow-rewarding musical form. Bit random, that, I know.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Melartin,Madetoja,Stenhammar,Atterberg.......as a long term aficionado of Sibelius and Nielsen I have also been stricken by a desire to identify others who might fall within some broad ill conceived notion of 'Nordic'....I have adopted two approaches, one involving the composers mentioned ( and on reflection Berwald for a long time and the odd CD such as the Ondine compilation 'Land of a Thousand Lakes) and secondly, I have found myself listening to a greater range of differing interpretations of the music of both composers......

oh....... and Rangstrom


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

jim prideaux said:


> Melartin,Madetoja,Stenhammar,Atterberg.......as a long term aficionado of Sibelius and Nielsen I have also been stricken by a desire to identify others who might fall within some broad ill conceived notion of 'Nordic'....I have adopted two approaches, one involving the composers mentioned ( and on reflection Berwald for a long time and the odd CD such as the Ondine compilation 'Land of a Thousand Lakes) and secondly, I have found myself listening to a greater range of differing interpretations of the music of both composers......
> 
> oh....... and Rangstrom


Nice to see you on here, Jim Prideaux - I've noted from previous posts that your tastes seem to gel with mine (I know the north-east a bit, too, though not as well as you, and can imagine walking its rugged coastlines while listening to Nielsen). So I'll follow up your recommendations...
Which of those names you've mentioned would you start with, as being in a recognisably post-Sibelian / Nielsenian idiom, or at least sharing some of the lyricism and atmosphere of these two composers?


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Some suggestions for symphonies by Nordic composers other than Sibelius and Nielsen:

Early romanticism
Franz Berwald - Symphony no. 3 "Singuliere" and symphony no. 4 "Naive"

Mid to late romaticism
Johan Svendsen - Symphony no. 2
Edvard Grieg - Symphony
Johan Halvorsen - Symphony no. 2 "Fatum"
Wilhelm Stenhammar - Symphony no. 2
Ture Rangstrom - Symphony no. 4 "Invocatio" and symphony no. 1 "August Strindberg in memoriam"
Hugo Alfven - Symphony no. 2
Kurt Atterberg - Symphony no. 1, symphony no. 6 "Dollar" and symphony no. 7 "Romantica"

Post romanticism
Vagn Holmboe - Symphony no. 8 "Boreale"
Karl-Birger Blomdahl - Symphony no. 3 "Facetter"


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Steve Wright said:


> Nice to see you on here, Jim Prideaux - I've noted from previous posts that your tastes seem to gel with mine (I know the north-east a bit, too, though not as well as you, and can imagine walking its rugged coastlines while listening to Nielsen). So I'll follow up your recommendations...
> Which of those names you've mentioned would you start with, as being in a recognisably post-Sibelian / Nielsenian idiom, or at least sharing some of the lyricism and atmosphere of these two composers?


I commented a while ago that for some reason Nielsen's music just 'fits' on the N.E. coast so you are 'bang on' with that one!

I have found a great deal to enjoy in both Melartin and Madetoja, somehow their music just seems to reflect a similar austerity (not sure on reflection if that is the right word) and ruggedness combined with....well you know what I mean!

Atterberg-I find myself listening to his symphonies-(2,4,5,6,)with real frequency......

I have also found over the last 25 years that the Berwald symphonies (Jarvi), while chronologically earlier and apparently owing something to Mendelssohn and Schubert also manages to reflect a similar environement

AND- nearly forgot-Eduard Tubin-if you have not heard any of his symphonies you may be in for a pleasant surprise-Estonian, and again inhabiting a similar 'soundworld'(another word I am really uncomfortable with!)

would be really interested to know what you think


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A few further, catchy work not mentioned hitherto, influenced by the late-Romantic style etc.:

Langgaard - Symphonies 4,6
Wiklund - Piano Concertos 1+2
Nørgård - Symphony 1
Rosenberg - Violin Concerto 2
Pettersson - Symphony 8
Nystroem - String Concertos, Viola Concerto, The Arctic Ocean
Rangström - Nachtstück in Hoffman´s Style (chamber)


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

A Swedish composer that have not been mentioned yet is Ingvar Lidholm.
Also the music by the Danish composers Ludolf Nielsen and Louis Glass.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Nobody equals Sibelius and Nielsen, but you should add Madetoja and Melartin to your list of lesser northern lights. I think even Berwald sounds Nordic in some intangible way. Then there are two symphonies by Grieg's friend Svendsen, the Swede Peterson-Berger, Sinding, Lange-Mueller, a little-known Nielsen named Ludolf, an obscure late Romantic named Tuukanen, the more modern Rautavaara, and the still more modern Norgaad. They all sound northern to my perhaps overactive imagination.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Nobody equals Sibelius and Nielsen, but you should add Madetoja and Melartin to your list of lesser northern lights. I think even Berwald sounds Nordic in some intangible way. Then there are two symphonies by Grieg's friend Svendsen, the Swede Peterson-Berger, Sinding, Lange-Mueller, a little-known Nielsen named Ludolf, an obscure late Romantic named Tuukanen, the more modern Rautavaara, and the still more modern Norgaad. They all sound northern to my perhaps overactive imagination.


Wilhelm Peterson-Berger's second and third symphonies are very fine.
Gösta Nystroem's sixth symphony. Vagn Holmboe's fifth symphony. Kontakion by Ingvar Lidholm is a work I like.


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## Johnhanks (Feb 21, 2016)

Steve Wright said:


> I am quite tempted to shell out a not astronomical sum for that Alfven set I mentioned at the top. Been listening to #1 and #4 today and I must say I'm quite taken. Thoughts on Alfven?


I have the set in question. I think the word that best sums up my reaction is "underwhelmed".


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Nobody equals Sibelius and Nielsen, but you should add Madetoja and Melartin to your list of lesser northern lights. I think even Berwald sounds Nordic in some intangible way. Then there are two symphonies by Grieg's friend Svendsen, the Swede Peterson-Berger, Sinding, Lange-Mueller, a little-known Nielsen named Ludolf, an obscure late Romantic named Tuukanen, the more modern Rautavaara, and the still more modern Norgaad. They all sound northern to my perhaps overactive imagination.


a man (or indeed a woman) after my own heart-good to know I am not the only one with a head that works in this way!


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Johnhanks said:


> I have the set in question. I think the word that best sums up my reaction is "underwhelmed".


Funnily enough I have also experienced the same with Alfven-so I did not mention him and would imagine there are composers mentioned on this thread that might actually 'deliver' more effectively (IMHO-if that is the correct way to express this idae in this new fangled context!)


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

What a brilliant array of responses (but with certain names coming up usefully often), thanks everyone.
Well, on the basis of affordability and of liking everything I read about him, I think I will start with this:


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It´s certainly a good set.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jim prideaux said:


> a man (or indeed a woman) after my own heart-good to know I am not the only one with a head that works in this way!


Mostly male, though I value equally the other side of my nature. Bi-psychic, perhaps.

I don't know what makes music sound northern, do you? I don't think it's just the name attached to it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Other composers worth listening to.
Bernhard Krusell
Dag Wirén who was the composer of Sweden´s entry in Eurovision song contest 1965 sung by Ingvar Wixell.
Yngve Sköld
Asger Hamerik

Howard Hanson´s parents were Swedish immigrants.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jim prideaux said:


> Funnily enough I have also experienced the same with Alfven-so I did not mention him and would imagine there are composers mentioned on this thread that might actually 'deliver' more effectively (IMHO-if that is the correct way to express this idae in this new fangled context!)


I'll third (or is it fourth?) that. Alfven's symphonies I find attractive and slightly disappointing. Worth a listen, though.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Mostly male, though I value equally the other side of my nature. Bi-psychic, perhaps.
> 
> I don't know what makes music sound northern, do you? I don't think it's just the name attached to it.


this raises a question that has often occurred to me and one that I have discussed with like minded friends but as intimated by your post is very difficult to answer-when ever I have attempted to put this into words I just flounder around....but I know what I mean,as I am sure you do!


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Steve Wright said:


> What a brilliant array of responses (but with certain names coming up usefully often), thanks everyone.
> Well, on the basis of affordability and of liking everything I read about him, I think I will start with this:
> View attachment 82613


on reflection probably a damned good idea-but can I just remind you that Tubin may also fit your bill particularly effectively!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Here is a really obscure one whose small symphonic output I have sampled, I have found quite nice. Norwegian composer Ludwig Irgens-Jensen. I heard a piece if his live once a Seattle Symphony with a guest Norwegian conductor who spoke passionately not only about the quality of the work, but what the songs of Irgens-Jensen meant to Norwegians when the nazis were invading, how they became anthems of resistance. I agreed that the piece was fine, I belive it was the Pasacaglia.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Sallinen, Aho and Abrahamsen are all spectacular.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

jim prideaux said:


> on reflection probably a damned good idea-but can I just remind you that Tubin may also fit your bill particularly effectively!


Y'know, I like what I read of Tubin. Which symphonies would you start with? I'm being recommended 2 somewhere.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Steve Wright said:


> Y'know, I like what I read of Tubin. Which symphonies would you start with? I'm being recommended 2 somewhere.


only a personal perception but I would start with 3rd and then 2nd and 4th-Neeme Jarvi, BIS, marvellous.....


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Thanks! Listening to Tubin 2 and now Madetoja 3 on YouTube. Both impressing me in their different ways...!


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Rautavaara would be my suggestion. I'd avoid Per Norgard whose music, to me, feels like a completely aimless journey.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

20centrfuge said:


> Rautavaara would be my suggestion. I'd avoid Per Norgard whose music, to me, feels like a completely aimless journey.


I would definitely recommend Per Nörgård I like nearly all his music.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Also, it's insanely obvious and that is probably why he hasn't been mentioned(sorry if he has, I don't remember) but within his limited formal sphere, the magic of Grief is wonderful and not to be dismissed. I always enjoy the Holbelg suite. Grieg is no Nielsen or Sibelius in scope and depth, but neither of them are QUITE Grieg in lyricism.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Since composers far removed from Sibelius and Nielsen such as Lidholm and Nørgård have now been mentioned, I will put a plug in for Magnus Lindberg, one of the most significant living composers in my opinion.

Start with his reasonably accessible orchestral work Feria, available with two other works on an Ondine disc.

I think Alfven has been harshly criticized in this thread. Try his second symphony, a large-scale work with an almost demonic third movement.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

AndorFoldes said:


> Since composers far removed from Sibelius and Nielsen such as Lidholm and Nørgård have now been mentioned, I will put a plug in for Magnus Lindberg, one of the most significant living composers in my opinion.
> .


Good music is good music regardless of style.
Other composers Daniel Börtz, Pehr Henrik Nordgren and Einar Englund.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Steve Wright said:


> Thanks! Those all look very fine - and are quite expensive as complete cycles. Any recommendations for individual symphonies to sample from each?


Well worth it.
I don't know which individual works I would suggest, and think all are worth getting (Holmboe is the one I am least familiar with)
Atterberg's concertos are issued on CPO, as individual CDs outside this set. You might start with those. N. Jarvi's recordings on Chandos are not to my taste, compared to the CPO recordings.
Gade's symphonies have been recorded by Hogwood, also on Chandos. Don't have them, but people seem to like them. You might start with Symphony 4, which might be the earliest symphony to include a concertante piano.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Klassic said:


> Hello good friend, thank you for mentioning these unique works (also thank you to the original poster for making this thread). I think the best threads are the ones where we get the chance to discover new music. So I have a question for you Jeffrey Smith: I want to listen to a symphony by Gade and a symphony by Holmboe (as I'm familiar with Atterberg), which symphonies should I start with first?


Don't mean to slight you...but my answer would be the one I just gave to Steve Wright.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Beyond Jean and Carl, I am quite pleased with Per Norgard,
Rautavaara, too, and gem-after-gem by Rued Langgaard
I know a little of Alfven, 
and Holmboe, and Will Sten.
Such a wealth of unique music, yes, written by the Nordic bards​


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## Classical Performances (Mar 8, 2016)

Try listening to the Finnish composer, Einojuhani Rautavaara. He expresses his thoughts very clearly in his "Autumn Gardens" work.






Classicalperformances.com
Bryan


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Well worth it.
> Gade's symphonies have been recorded by Hogwood, also on Chandos. Don't have them, but people seem to like them. You might start with Symphony 4, which might be the earliest symphony to include a concertante piano.


Hogwood didn´t record a complete set, but N. Järvi and Schønwandt did. Schønwandt´s set has been issued on Naxos (maybe only locally, I don´t remember right now). Järvi´s set is good, but he tends to play things fast, Schønwandt is slower.

It´s Gade´s 5th Symphony (1852) that has a concertante piano. For recommendations: the heroic 1st Symphony (Schønwandt a bit too heavy here, IMO - I´d like for example the old Hye-Knudsen recording to appear on CD), the 5th Symphony, and the more autumnal, final 8th.

BTW, Langgaard´s 3rd Symphony (1916) also has a concertante piano.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> Also, it's insanely obvious and that is probably why he hasn't been mentioned(sorry if he has, I don't remember) but within his limited formal sphere, the magic of Grief is wonderful and not to be dismissed. I always enjoy the Holbelg suite. Grieg is no Nielsen or Sibelius in scope and depth, but neither of them are QUITE Grieg in lyricism.


Indeed, when speaking about Nordic composers, it is not the "big two", but the "big three".


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

You could also try Jon Leifs, an Icelandic composer


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Neilsen feels like one of the most overrated composers of them all - a romantic idiom and long works so must be good? Per Norgaard is an excellent recent composer whose 3,5,6 sympphony, to me at least, seem sincererly in the symphonic genre and are enjoyable to listen to


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Nielsen went beyond Romanticism and the oeuvre is quite poly-stylistic - 
a lot of different folklore; polystylism and parody in the 6th Symphony, experiments in the Clarinet Concerto (Simpson: inventive tonality), the Aladdin Suite (Ivesian, multiple orchestras playing different tunes simultaneously) 3 Piano Pieces (Bartok, Schönberg influence), experiments in 1st Symphony (Simpson: possibly the first symphony to start in one key and end in another), and the 4th Symphony (improvisatory playing in the piece), Chaconne (neo-Baroque, Bach-inspiration), etc.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I am sure that Nielsen's oeuvre is interesting for those to whom the finer points of that style are interesting - the idiosyncracies are there bt the for me the results aren't. I've found him (after playing and listening) to be surprisingly bland. I think Norgaard has a lot to offer


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

No recent composer probably rivals Nørgård as regards diversity, I agree with that. And he´s one of my absolute favourites too.

As a side remark, Nielsen´s core symphonies 3,4,5 can´t be said to lack a musically highly ambitious approach, and they are all quite different from each other.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Good music is good music regardless of style.
> Other composers Daniel Börtz, Pehr Henrik Nordgren and Einar Englund.


Just listening to Einar Englund's First Piano Concerto now, on a friend's recommendation.
Very good - echoes of Shostakovich and Bartok...?


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

One I don't recall seeing anyone mention is Ole Olsen. Christian Lindberg recorded a fine disc of his Trombone Concerto (how many trombone concertos have you ever heard?), which is fabulous along with his 1st symphony.

Kevin


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Any thoughts on Robert Simpson? Influenced by Nielsen I gather (along with another fave of mine, Bruckner), and certainly very eloquent and impassioned about him in this splendid Nielsen documentary...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Steve Wright said:


> Any thoughts on Robert Simpson? Influenced by Nielsen I gather (along with another fave of mine, Bruckner), and certainly very eloquent and impassioned about him in this splendid Nielsen documentary...


Thank you for that link, didn´t know the documentary and enjoyed it a lot. Nice with those Horenstein, Nielsen daughters and Simpson interviews, and the Copenhagen scenes anno ~1970 .


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

joen_cph said:


> No recent composer probably rivals Nørgård as regards diversity, I agree with that. And he´s one of my absolute favourites too.


I would say Nörgård is the kind of composer whose music one can like regardless of what music one likes otherwise. He just happens to have made and make enjoyable music.


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## Saintbert (Mar 12, 2015)

One of my favorite discs is a collection of orchestral works by Väinö Raitio (1891-1945), with Jukka-pekka Saraste conducting the Finnish Radio symphony Orchestra (Ondine). _The Swans_ could easily be my favorite seven minutes in any music. The piece is inspired by a poem by Otto Manninen and the idea of the singing swan's dying call: "Away across the waves, called onwards by a burning longing; yet only he who falls is given the gift of tone..."


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

AndorFoldes said:


> Since composers far removed from Sibelius and Nielsen such as Lidholm and Nørgård have now been mentioned, I will put a plug in for Magnus Lindberg, one of the most significant living composers in my opinion.
> 
> Start with his reasonably accessible orchestral work Feria, available with two other works on an Ondine disc.
> 
> I think Alfven has been harshly criticized in this thread. Try his second symphony, a large-scale work with an almost demonic third movement.


taking indirect advice from this post and returning to the 4th Symphony and En skargardssagen for another listen and I will be installing on my I pod for a week away-might have been a little too quick to dismiss-Jarvi and the Stockholm P.O.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

What? No one has mentioned fearless leader of this forum, the Danish composer Frederick Magle?

http://www.magle.dk/


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

For all Melartin fans out there: Ondine has finally released the world-premiere recording of the three Melartin pieces:
- Traumsgesicht, Op. 70,
- Marjatta for soprano and orchestra, Op. 79,
- Music from the ballet The Blue Pearl, Op. 160

https://www.ondine.net/?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=5765

Can't recommend it highly enough!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Johnhanks said:


> Hilding Rosenberg's symphonies are worth a listen. Those of Rued Langgaard are a must, though he was very much a school of one.


Hilding Rosenberg´s symphonies are wonderful. Especially the third, fourth and the fifth.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*Eduard Tubin from Estonia*


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