# What is "color" in music?



## aleazk

I noticed that, lately, one of the aspects that I enjoy most in music is something that we normally refer to it as "color". I think color is the result of a mix between harmony and timbre. If we add rhythm we can say we have a texture?. For me, the most colorful music is late romantic music, impressionism and avant-garde (late 20th century).


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## clavichorder

Often, clarity with wind orchestration, particularly in the fleeting lines of the higher pitched wind instruments is considered colorful. Late romantics and early modernists are often very skilled at orchestration and the use of wind instruments. Berlioz is also an undeniably colorful composer, ahead of his time in that regard and very skilled at wind writing. It may not be the end all of "color," but there's a strong correlation. With regards to piano music, the colorful music is less chordal and more arpeggiated in the accompanying hand, with pearly flourishing in the melodic line.

I put more emphasis on timbre and orchestration than I do harmony, because there are also more colorful composers of the baroque and classical eras. I think of JCF Bach's lovely but obscure symphonies, which do a beautiful job of varying the sound with nice wind orchestration, very colorful indeed.

But harmony and melody need to be appropriate to the timbres for the colorful effects, for sure.


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## Ukko

aleazk said:


> I noticed that, lately, one of the aspects that I enjoy most in music is something that we normally refer to it as "color". I think color is the result of a mix between harmony and timbre. If we add rhythm we can say we have a texture?. For me, the most colorful music is late romantic music, impressionism and avant-garde (late 20th century).


Color is the exploitation of timbres.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Colour (as in tone colour) and timbre are by definition exactly the same thing.


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## clavichorder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Colour (as in tone colour) and timbre are by definition exactly the same thing.


Yes but tone color is a technical term and Aleazk is referring to the power of music to almost literally evoke colors to the listener. Of course, you are right, there is a reason that timbres and mixes of it are called tone color to begin with: because that's probably the largest thing that goes into something being colorful in that more abstract sense.


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## aleazk

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Colour (as in tone colour) and timbre are by definition exactly the same thing.


, yes, but I'm asking for something more broad here. The combinations of various musical aspects, like timbre, harmony, etc. I called it "color" in absence of a better name.


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## clavichorder

clavichorder said:


> Yes but tone color is a technical term and Aleazk is referring to the power of music to almost literally evoke colors to the listener. Of course, you are right, there is a reason that timbres and mixes of it are called tone color to begin with: because that's probably the largest thing that goes into something being colorful in that more abstract sense.


Although I have to admit that some of the most colorful music ever composed was done by Scriabin, who was a competent orchestrator and relatively pianistic piano composer, but really with Scriabin, its all about the HARMONY. So I guess there is more to this.


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## clavichorder

As a contrast, one might look towards the Neoclassical output of Stravinsky, some of which seems colorful to me, but some of which seems dry. And yet all of it has brilliant wind orchestration... So that sort of blows the pure orchestration thing out of the water.


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## clavichorder

Maybe there's some sort of golden ratio hocus pocus involved... -semi sarcasm-


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

aleazk said:


> , yes, but I'm asking for something more broad here. The combinations of various musical aspects, like timbre, harmony, etc. I called it "color" in absence of a better name.


But "colour" already means something else in music. Maybe you mean "orchestration?" Good orchestration results in what you mean by "colour."


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## aleazk

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> But "colour" already means something else in music. Maybe you mean "orchestration?"


Definitely not, although orchestration may be an important part to the concept.
Technically, the word "color" corresponds to a well defined thing, timbre, as you say. I'm not referring to timbre. So, I have appealed to the common meaning of color in order to try to capture the concept. The fact that a word may be used technically, doesn't means that all of its meaning is exhausted. You must deduce from the context in which sense the word is used.


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## Turangalîla

I feel that actual _colour_, as in red, blue, gold, etc. is very much underrated when it comes to interpretation. There is _tone_ colour and there is _real_ colour. Have you ever read Messiaen's colour descriptions when it comes to interpretation of his pieces?

He once described, "Blue-violet rocks, speckled with little grey cubes, cobalt blue, deep Prussian blue, highlighted by a bit of violet-purple, gold, red, ruby, and stars of mauve, black and white. Blue-violet is dominant."


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Synaesthesia????


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## clavichorder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> But "colour" already means something else in music. Maybe you mean "orchestration?" Good orchestration results in what you mean by "colour."


How do you account for the piano works of Liszt, Ravel or Scriabin, which seem to be thought of as colorful by most listeners and yet rely only on the timbre of the piano?


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## BurningDesire

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Colour (as in tone colour) and timbre are by definition exactly the same thing.


Personally I see timbre and harmony pretty heavily linked, considering most pitches we hear are made of many tones sounding as one.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

BurningDesire said:


> Personally I see timbre and harmony pretty heavily linked, considering most pitches we hear are made of many tones sounding as one.


Interesting, please go on. I'm not well educated in the science behind the sound actually. What type of tones make up each note?


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## clavichorder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Interesting, please go on. I'm not well educated in the science behind the sound actually. What type of tones make up each note?


Overtone stuff. The less overtones(and the quieter they are) that sound along with the lowest and most audible pitch, the more pure it will sound, I think. Flutes are an acoustic example but real purity can only be achieved electronically. The sound of a trumpet, piano, clarinet; it all comes from what kinds of things are happening in the overtone series on top of the base pitch. Really rudimentary explanation, maybe not entirely accurate, but that's the gist.

The pitches you can play on a brass instrument by just modifying the shape of your mouth are the beginnings of the overtones.


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## BurningDesire

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Interesting, please go on. I'm not well educated in the science behind the sound actually. What type of tones make up each note?


I mostly learned this through studying synthesis. You're aware of over-tones right? Its like, you hear a pitch, but you're hearing several at the same time ringing together, to give you that specific timbre. When synthesizing, alot of times you create sine waves, which are pure and have no overtones, and you combine many of them at various frequencies to create things like sawtooth waves or square waves. A single pitch of a sawtooth wave synth sound can be thought of like a chord, even though it just sounds like the fundamental pitch, you're also hearing all these other ones. Pipe organs behave similarly in an acoustic way.


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## Turangalîla

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Synaesthesia????


Yes, he had synaesthesia, as do I (but a milder case).
Every bit of music he ever heard caused him to not see, but _experience_ colours.


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## Turangalîla

And, speaking of overtones, my teacher (who was a student of Alfred Brendel, by the way) was able to whistle for me a B-but _within_ the B she was whistling a B major arpeggio in the overtones! It was an out-of-this-world experience!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> syn*a*esthesia


OH! The way you spell this word is a work of art!


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## clavichorder

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> And, speaking of overtones, my teacher (who was a student of Alfred Brendel, by the way) was able to whistle for me a B-but _within_ the B she was whistling a B major arpeggio in the overtones! It was an out-of-this-world experience!


How is that even possible? I thought the overtones couldn't hit any old note, but that they went up a fifth and then a fourth and the intervals got smaller from there?

Apologies, we've gotten way off topic.


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## Krisena

I have synesthesia and to me it looks like the colours I experience when listening to music is different than the colours others see. So it's probably totally subjective. I don't think we need 3 different meanings for the word colour, to be honest. I've got faith in that you're able to find a different word for your purpose, OP.


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## Ramako

Haydn

Haydn


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Ramako said:


> Haydn
> 
> Haydn




I saw Haydn in black the first time and in white the second time!!!


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## nikola

You could never guess what color I see while listening to 'Rhapsody in Blue' 
Even though, I see many colors there.


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## Ukko

BurningDesire said:


> Personally I see timbre and harmony pretty heavily linked, considering most pitches we hear are made of many tones sounding as one.


Sure but uh... in _my_ mind, there is a difference between harmony and _harmonics_.


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## Kopachris

clavichorder said:


> How is that even possible? I thought the overtones couldn't hit any old note, but that they went up a fifth and then a fourth and the intervals got smaller from there?
> 
> Apologies, we've gotten way off topic.


The first few overtones on C, in order, go: c (fundamental) c1 g1 c2 e2 g2. Technically, whenever you whistle or sing, the strongest overtones will always form a major chord. I think what CarterJohnsonPiano is thinking of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone_singing



Hilltroll72 said:


> Sure but uh... in _my_ mind, there is a difference between harmony and _harmonics_.


Maybe in your mind, but not in Schoenberg's.


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## Turangalîla

Kopachris said:


> I think what CarterJohnsonPiano is thinking of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone_singing


Yes, I think that is what she was doing.
She is also very opposed to using the _una corda_ pedal (unless indicated in the score) because it sucks out all the overtones.


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## BurningDesire

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Yes, I think that is what she was doing.
> She is also very opposed to using the _una corda_ pedal (unless indicated in the score) because it sucks out all the overtones.


I don't think it really does ^^; just less sound overall. One thing that is interesting with sound is that it sort of stacks up, so if you have many things making the same sound all at the same volume, it all adds together and gets louder as a result, both in acoustic and synthesized sound.


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## Ukko

Kopachris said:


> The first few overtones on C, in order, go: c (fundamental) c1 g1 c2 e2 g2. Technically, whenever you whistle or sing, the strongest overtones will always form a major chord. I think what CarterJohnsonPiano is thinking of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone_singing
> 
> Maybe in your mind, but not in Schoenberg's.


Harmonics are doublings. Harmonies don't need to be doublings... do they?


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## BurningDesire

Hilltroll72 said:


> Harmonics are doublings. Harmonies don't need to be doublings... do they?


What do you mean doublings? As in the same pitch? Thats obviously not true since when you hear pretty much any sound besides a sine wave playing a C, you're hearing other frequencies besides C. They are very quiet and subtle, but its still like a form of harmony. Timbre also offers explanations for how harmony works the way it does. When you play a consonant major triad at the lowest register of the piano, it sounds muddy, even dissonant to an extent, and that is because the overtones are far more audible the lower the fundamental frequency of a pitch is, and because they are more audible, you hear the clashing between all the overtones. for example, imagine a C Major triad at the bottom of a piano, in root position. You're playing this triad, but because of the overtones, its almost like you're playing a C Major triad along with an E Major and G Major triad too. Then there is the sound of minor, minor keys and modes. The reason minor has that somewhat inexplicably unhappy sound that it does, is because the minor third is a very distant, very high overtone, so in a manner of speaking it is somewhat dissonant. When you play a C on the piano, an E is one of the lower overtones you're hearing, and when you add an E-flat on top of that C, it very subtly clashes with the E that you don't really register, giving minor that troubled character.


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## SpanishFly

I think, as demonstrated by the variety of the posts here, colour is subjective as is the art it describes  

Each and every one of us will experience colour, therefore music, in a sense that is different in some way than the next person who hears it. 

If I were to pin colour down to one thing, I would say that would be the combination of the instrument's natural tone with the usage of dynamics, articulation, and emotional input from the performer.


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## Ukko

BurningDesire said:


> What do you mean doublings? As in the same pitch?


Hell no. Doublings of frequency.


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## BurningDesire

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hell no. Doublings of frequency.


What are you talking about?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

BD, I still don't understand what you meant by different tones. I know about the harmonic series and all that, but what specific tones are you talking about that make up a pitch? The tone of an oboe and the tone of a piano are different and I thought they were made up by sound waves or something like that.


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## Ramako

Isn't it wonderful when we all understand each other perfectly?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Ramako said:


> Isn't it wonderful when we all understand each other perfectly?


Yeah you can say _that_ again.


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## Ramako

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Yeah you can say _that_ again.


Isn't it wonderful when we all understand each other perfectly?


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## BurningDesire

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> BD, I still don't understand what you meant by different tones. I know about the harmonic series and all that, but what specific tones are you talking about that make up a pitch? The tone of an oboe and the tone of a piano are different and I thought they were made up by sound waves or something like that.


Okay, say you have a sawtooth wave. This sound is synthesized by combining multiple sine waves at different frequencies. So a single pitch of a sawtooth wave is basically made of sine waves at different pitches. This is basically the case with most instruments, you're hearing multiple frequencies in a given note on a piano, and the balances of those frequencies are the different for the same note on an oboe. Timbre is basically which overtones are more pronounced in the pitch, but you could think of that single pitch as something very much like a chord, because you're hearing those different frequencies. Does that make sense?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

BurningDesire said:


> Okay, say you have a sawtooth wave. This sound is synthesized by combining multiple sine waves at different frequencies. So a single pitch of a sawtooth wave is basically made of sine waves at different pitches. This is basically the case with most instruments, you're hearing multiple frequencies in a given note on a piano, and the balances of those frequencies are the different for the same note on an oboe. Timbre is basically which overtones are more pronounced in the pitch, but you could think of that single pitch as something very much like a chord, because you're hearing those different frequencies. Does that make sense?


Ah yes I got it now. Thanks.


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## Ukko

BurningDesire said:


> What are you talking about?


200 > 400 > 800 > 1600 - - -

Get it, BD?


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## BurningDesire

Hilltroll72 said:


> 200 > 400 > 800 > 1600 - - -
> 
> Get it, BD?


Harmonics don't only consist of octaves


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## Ukko

BurningDesire said:


> Harmonics don't only consist of octaves


1st harmonic - 2nd harmonic - 3rd harmonic... all octaves.


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## Kopachris

Hilltroll72 said:


> 1st harmonic - 2nd harmonic - 3rd harmonic... all octaves.


No. 1st harmonic is fundamental. 2nd harmonic is octave. 3rd harmonic is octave+fifth. 4th harmonic is 2nd octave. Harmonics and the series of overtones are the same thing (almost). That's what we've been trying to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


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## Andreas

I wish I knew enough about physics to understand why identical pitches sound different on different instruments. I mean, it’s somewhat logical that they sound different, alright, but why exactly? Homework assignment!


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## Ukko

Kopachris said:


> No. 1st harmonic is fundamental. 2nd harmonic is octave. 3rd harmonic is octave+fifth. 4th harmonic is 2nd octave. Harmonics and the series of overtones are the same thing (almost). That's what we've been trying to say.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


OK. I'd sooner believe you than Wiki.


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## BurningDesire

Hilltroll72 said:


> OK. I'd sooner believe you than Wiki.


It is hopeless to attempt to convince you if you're deadset on not learning.


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## Ukko

BurningDesire said:


> It is hopeless to attempt to convince you if you're deadset on not learning.




Is that something your teacher told you recently?

I have learned - just not from you. Your teaching style needs work. Note how _kopa_ went to the 'heart of the matter'.


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## Andreas

If there is an opposite of synaesthesia, I think I have it, as I don't ever associate colours with sounds, much less see them when I listen to music.

I think notes can be articulated as colour if the sound does not have a solid core, so to speak. Piano trills or string tremoli for instance, or softly-played wind instruments. At least I've heard Barenboim and Celibidache referring to colour like this in masterclasses and rehearsals. All this implies rather quiet sounds.

Of course every sound, regardless how quiet or loud, has a certain colour, or timbre. But that's a different meaning. Notes can become coloury, when played softly and fuzzily, impressionistically, perhaps. In other words, when th sound becomes somewhat cloud-like or haze-like, instead of a clearly, precisely delineated shape.


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## Kopachris




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## Andreas

Kopachris said:


>


Nah, we Europeans just like to recycle. ;-)


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## Morimur

Andreas said:


> Nah, we Europeans just like to recycle. ;-)


Yes, we all know how crazy Mother Russia is about recycling.


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## millionrainbows

"Musicians often use the term _tone color _when referring to the characteristic quality of a tone which enables one to tell different instruments apart. "Tone color," or _timbre_ (pronounced "tam-ber"), is the characteristic pattern of overtones unique to every instrument, which gives an instrument its own distinct sound. The point here is to make the distinction between "tone color" (which is really tone texture) and other general uses of the word color, and color hearing, which is the ear's perception of pitch color.

Some people have a perception of musical tones which extends beyond the sense of hearing and "overflows" into other senses, particularly the sense of sight. That is, when they hear a musical tone, they may simultaneously see an actual _visual_ color. This extremely rare and peculiar phenomenon is called _synesthesia,_ which means that one of the five senses is stimulated through a different sense outside its own field of perception. The synesthetic individual literally "sees" a color when he hears a tone.

Further, individuals with the sense of color hearing (perfect pitch) do not _see_ colors when tones are played (this is synesthesia), but rather discriminate between colors which are _heard_*. *This situation has no direct connection with the ability of perfect pitch. A person with perfect pitch does not see a visual color when he hears a tone; rather, he hears the sound color (pitch color) of the tone. Visual color and pitch color can both be referred to as color because they both mean a certain quality which allows one to discriminate among wave frequencies.

It should be clear by this analysis that color hearing (perfect pitch) is completely separate from any kind of visual color association to music. Perfect pitch is the perception of pitch color and has no concern with any kind of visual color experience or association. Pitch color is a quality which is heard and is merely analogous to the way the eye sees and discriminates between visual colors."

David Burge


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## Vaneyes

*What is "color' in music?*

I thought this gentleman (linked) explained it well. Piano is an excellent instrument for demonstrating.

http://jeffreychappell.com/blog/how-to-create-color-in-piano-playing

Re books, try "Sviatoslav Richter: Notebooks and Conversations".


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## Richannes Wrahms

There are some well known tricks regarding the manipulation of the overtones (remember that they are real sound that you do hear and not just theoretical entities). For example, the most resonant chords are the ones that 'manifest' the overtones of the overtones. All this becomes particularly useful when dealing with extended harmonies and 'bitonal' chords. One of the common means of adding colorful flourishes is via contrasting modal inflections (or whole-tone, octatonic, pentatonic etc, contrasting selections of overtones/intervals) often in parallel motion, for example, parallel thirds in the woodwinds, melodic sequences (with each iteration in a different mode), pretty much the entire oeuvre of Debussy, etc.


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## julianoq

I was reading about Scriabin relating color to keys and found it quite interesting. He even made a colored circle of fifths.










More on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Scriabin#Philosophical_influences_and_influence_of_colour


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## aleazk

Kopachris said:


>


haha, you beat me to it!

I think this one belongs to the 'Stupid thread ideas' thread. Sounds good in your head, but the actual idea is too vague to provide some consistent discussion. Most of the answers here are on topic, even when they are very dissimilar!

Lesson learned!


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## ArtMusic

aleazk said:


> I noticed that, lately, one of the aspects that I enjoy most in music is something that we normally refer to it as "color". I think color is the result of a mix between harmony and timbre. If we add rhythm we can say we have a texture?. For me, the most colorful music is late romantic music, impressionism and avant-garde (late 20th century).


Color is the ability to paint large musical canvas. Very very few truely talented composers were able to do that. Handel comes to mind first. He relied a lot on imagery and for a Baroque composer, he wrote a lot of musical scenes in his vocal pieces that showed characterisation of scenes, people's moods and feelings adding a lot fo color. Probably the first true mastar of color.


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## maestro267

I know it derives from orchestration, but I tend to think of "colour" being added by tuned percussion like celesta and glockenspiel, plus the harps.


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## Piwikiwi

Turangalîla said:


> Yes, he had synaesthesia, as do I (but a milder case).
> Every bit of music he ever heard caused him to not see, but _experience_ colours.


Weird thing about synaesthesia is that is it different for everyone.


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## Rhythm

Vaneyes said:


> *What is "color' in music?*
> 
> I thought this gentleman (linked) explained it well. Piano is an excellent instrument for demonstrating.
> 
> http://jeffreychappell.com/blog/how-to-create-color-in-piano-playing …


A good essay by Mr. Chappell! Thanks, Vaneyes, and a thank you to aimee for her 'like' of it!

Here's the second paragraph as an excerpt from the essay originally linked by Vaneyes.

"If someone says that a pianist has nice colors, it means that the pianist is using artistic ways of enhancing the basic sound of the piano."​
As a pianist, I know the technique required for producing sounds of colors for Debussy solo piano are (slightly, depending on the pianist) different from a technique required for producing sounds of colors for Brahms solo piano. Then, an altered piano technique is required for accompanying an operatic soloist, or accompanying small (Brahms) choral groups or small (Mahler) string ensembles, as examples.

The weighted finger piano technique cannot be indulged too much, for a pianist can feel a certain satisfaction, a joy, if you will, from superb results for having created during performances and rehearsals multiple colors, tones, tone qualities, sound qualities, sonorities, and timbres, because they are essentially the same thing performed on piano.

Acoustics would be in the mix, too, so the topic of colors performed on piano isn't an easy one; colors are easier heard in a real life demonstration than descriptive words read on your screen.

R.


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