# Who has the best symphonies -DVORAK or BEETHOVEN?



## mtmailey

i am not trying to start anything bad here.


----------



## Sid James

I don't really care much for symphonies, to tell you the truth. Well, not as much as chamber music. & in terms of that, I've just been listening to Dvorak's _Piano Trio #3 in F minor_ & I'd definitely put it on the same level as Beethoven's mighty "Archduke" trio. So in my books, with my priorities, in terms of what I value most highly, they are EQUAL (& that should have been an option in the poll, definitely, or at least the traditional "banana" vote)...


----------



## Itullian

is this a trick question?


----------



## NightHawk

_Dude_, I can't believe you even said that. I'm gonna have to get that Dvorak Piano Trio as Beethoven's 'Archduke' Trio is one of my most favorite chamber works. I'm going to Classical Archives right this minute!



Sid James said:


> I don't really care much for symphonies, to tell you the truth. Well, not as much as chamber music. & in terms of that, I've just been listening to Dvorak's _Piano Trio #3 in F minor_ & I'd definitely put it on the same level as Beethoven's mighty "Archduke" trio. So in my books, with my priorities, in terms of what I value most highly, they are EQUAL (& that should have been an option in the poll, definitely, or at least the traditional "banana" vote)...


----------



## NightHawk

I downloaded and listened to the Dvorak Trio in F minor (Borodin Trio) I would put it on the same program as the 'Archduke' for sure. It is a most welcome addition to my growing collection of Piano Trios! Thanks for your mention of it. What about the 4th Trio ('Dumsky' <sic>)



Sid James said:


> I don't really care much for symphonies, to tell you the truth. Well, not as much as chamber music. & in terms of that, I've just been listening to Dvorak's _Piano Trio #3 in F minor_ & I'd definitely put it on the same level as Beethoven's mighty "Archduke" trio. So in my books, with my priorities, in terms of what I value most highly, they are EQUAL (& that should have been an option in the poll, definitely, or at least the traditional "banana" vote)...


----------



## Olias

Taken as a complete set of nine symphonic works, Beethoven's is in my humble opinion the greatest set of symphonies ever composed. HOWEVER, Dvorak's final three symphonies are easily on equal footing with any of the Beethoven nine.


----------



## Tapkaara

I voted Beethoven, of course.

I really, really do not understand Dvorak. I hate to say this, but I find him incredibly boring.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Dvorák is better than Beethoven so I voted for him. But Farrenc's symphonies are better than all if them.


----------



## Kopachris

Dvorak. "The New World" kicks "Joy to the World's" ***.


----------



## Sid James

I voted for Dvorak for being on the losing side. He's got 6 votes now!!! This was a vote for the underdog. Although my above post from ages back stands (in contradiction to the non-alignment thing)...


----------



## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Dvorák is better than Beethoven so I voted for him. But Farrenc's symphonies are better than all if them.


Yup we all know that, and by the way what about Medtner?


----------



## Crudblud

Dvorak. Don't get me wrong; I like Beethoven and all, but I find his symphonies to be among his worst work. And I guess I have a special attachment to Dvorak's 9th, which is allegedly the first piece of music I ever heard when I was two days old. When I heard it in full for the first time since then (last year) something came over me, I did feel a genuine sense of belonging. I don't think I genuinely remember hearing it back in 1989, but there's definitely something else there.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^Dvorak's fifth is better than his ninth.


----------



## Polednice

Once again, I shall interpret "best" as "your personal favourite" because I don't care for comparing the unquantifiable.

As such, my favourite set is Dvorak _by far_. Dvorak's 7th is one of my favourite symphonies ever written.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Polednice said:


> Once again, I shall interpret "best" as "your personal favourite" because I don't care for comparing the unquantifiable.
> 
> As such, my favourite set is Dvorak _by far_. Dvorak's 7th is one of my favourite symphonies ever written.


No no no, the *fifth.* Anyway I thought you left.


----------



## Polednice

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No no no, the *fifth.* Anyway I thought you left.


Parts of the 5th are good, but it's not as good as the 7th. And what is your obsession with me leaving?! I'm not leaving! Well, I am. At least for the weekend. Honestly, I am this time. Got to go to London! BYE!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Polednice said:


> Parts of the 5th are good, but it's not as good as the 7th. And what is your obsession with me leaving?! I'm not leaving! Well, I am. At least for the weekend. Honestly, I am this time. Got to go to London! BYE!


Bye Polednice. Good Riddance you ugly little vampire pig!


----------



## Polednice

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Bye Polednice. Good Riddance you ugly little vampire pig!


Bye. I'm leaving now. Well, in an hour or two really. Stupid woman. It's your fault Robert was bipolar.


----------



## Eviticus

I prefer Dvorak's set over most of the great composers symphonies but not Beethoven's. I'm afraid it's a thread with a predictable and inevitable result.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Dvorak is my favourite composer. But Im still gonna have to vote for Beethoven.


----------



## Ukko

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No no no, the *fifth.* Anyway I thought you left.


_Poley_ has most likely had his shot by now, and is once again bouncy.

It is not unreasonable to favor Dvorak's symphonies over those by Beethoven. One of the great developments in Romanticism was the advance in orchestration, and Dvorak became very good at it.


----------



## Ozomulsion

Dvorak composed my favorite symphonies, every movement from his 9th is amazing. the 1st and 3rd movements from his 8th are great as well. His finale to that symphony is pretty good too, though the second movement isn't very interesting to me. His 7th symphony has some good moments, and his 5th's finale is incredibly inventive. The problem I have with Beethoven's symphonies is that the guy doesn't know when to stop in some instances. Some movements just go on and on. I like some movements from various symphonies by him, but I feel they just don't equal up to Dvorak.


----------



## Vaneyes

I tried, but it's impossible for me to type anything else. Mahler.


----------



## Moscow-Mahler

I dunno, I am more into Dvorak's symphonic poems, though I've only heard his 8th and 9th symphonies. So, I voted for Beethoven.


----------



## Oskaar

I dont vote.. Both composers are bether with chamber, and concertos. That is my oppinion now, But I have a lot to discover.


----------



## Xaltotun

Dvorak is clearly a skillful composer but I don't really like his spirit and temper. Decisive victory for Beethoven.


----------



## Polednice

emiellucifuge said:


> Dvorak is my favourite composer. But Im still gonna have to vote for Beethoven.


OMFG, why?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I change my vote to either Farrenc or Schnittke.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Polednice said:


> OMFG, why?


Because I feel that 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 = 5 perfect symphonies from Beethoven has to beat 7, 8, 9 = 3 from Dvorak. And though I really think Dvoraks 4, 5, 6 are fantastic, I also think the same of Beethovens 4 and 8.

Dvorak beats Beethoven in a lot of other areas though.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Vaneyes said:


> I tried, but it's impossible for me to type anything else. Mahler.


Heh, heh- good one.

The Mahler cycle is a closer match for the Beethoven symphonies that Dvořák's set.

Yup, even though Dvořák might be my choice for greatest composer whose native language wasn't German or Russian...


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

I voted for Dvorak for being on the losing side. He's got 6 votes now!!! This was a vote for the underdog. Although my above post from ages back stands (in contradiction to the non-alignment thing)...

Sid... have you ever come to think that maybe you base some of your opinions far too much on external, non-musical considerations? I mean I suspect many of your "dislikes" seem more about voting for the "underdog" or against "undefeated champions" than they are about music. Think Bach, Wagner, Karajan... and now Beethoven. In spite of your frequent championing of Beethoven as the composer who broke away from the conventions of music composed as mere entertainment for the ruling classes, here you vote for Dvorak simply to add some votes in favor of the underdog? And then you gived miffed at me whenever I play the "devil's advocate?:lol:

Seriously, I agree with your general disdain for these comparisons. Criticism, if it is to be of any merit, is something more than a generalized statement as to how this artist or art work is better or worse than another. I do wish there were more critical discussion of given works. I think there is a decent amount on the "Current Listening" thread... although many just post a picture without the least comment. There are also decent comments of the thread that I started some time back with the intention of introducing new music. Perhaps we should introduce a couple works a week a delve a bit deeper into them?


----------



## DavidMahler

Beethoven's symphonies are on another level from Dvorak's, except that Dvorak's melodic writing is better overall.


----------



## Polednice

DavidMahler said:


> Beethoven's symphonies are on another level from Dvorak's.


Why? . . . . . . . . . . .


----------



## clavichorder

StlukesguildOhio said:


> There are also decent comments of the thread that I started some time back with the intention of introducing new music. Perhaps we should introduce a couple works a week a delve a bit deeper into them?




I made a thread like that a while back.


----------



## anshuman

A bit of an unjust comparison, I think for someone who loves both. Dvorak's ninth was one which made me sit up and listen to classical. It was , I remember the Fricssay recording. Then one day I listened to the Pastoral(Muti-Philadelphia) and I became the devotee of Big B. All I can say today is that Dvorak sometimes manages to pull me out of the B obsession.
Anshuman


----------



## anshuman

Dvorak ,I feel, lovingly dwells on melancholy. Beethoven struggles against it as it threatens to engulf him. Pardon the Idle thoughts of an idle fellow.


----------



## samurai

anshuman said:


> Dvorak ,I feel, lovingly dwells on melancholy. Beethoven struggles against it as it threatens to engulf him. Pardon the Idle thoughts of an idle fellow.


I believe your points to be well-taken, especially when we remember that Beethoven had to constantly struggle with the added burden of his deafness, which had already and forever "engulfed" him, as you so eloquently put it.


----------



## anshuman

Listened today to the Karajan recording of Dvorak ninth.The crescendo at the end of the first movement sounds like a scream. Spoils my understanding of the composer built by other great performances(Kubelik,Fricssay,Talich). Karajan seems to trying to make Dvorak sound unnecessarily grand. Dvorak in my view should not sound like Wagner or even Beethoven.


----------



## ksargent

I love Dvorak, but Beethoven at his best (and the Ninth is an example) evoked a higher consciousness that few artists ever come near. It may be cliche to say so, but Beethoven's symphonies are among the greatest artistic achievements of the human psyche.

Ken


----------



## Polednice

ksargent said:


> I love Dvorak, but Beethoven at his best (and the Ninth is an example) evoked a higher consciousness that few artists ever come near. It may be cliche to say so, but Beethoven's symphonies are among the greatest artistic achievements of the human psyche.


Prove it, please.


----------



## ksargent

Polednice said:


> Prove it, please.


Opinions and beliefs cannot be proven. My comments were expressions of the way in which the works mentioned (I'll add Beethoven's Violin Concerto) affect me on a spiritual level. Perhaps they do not affect you in the same way, however my concluding statement ("Beethoven's symphonies are among the greatest artistic achievements of the human psyche") is hardly a radical or farfetched one. One could make the same statement about the greatest works of Shakespeare, the poetry of Homer, or the paintings of Picasso. It's a spiritual reaction which I will agree not all share or, for that matter, accept as valid.


----------



## Polednice

ksargent said:


> Opinions and beliefs cannot be proven. My comments were expressions of the way in which the works mentioned (I'll add Beethoven's Violin Concerto) affect me on a spiritual level. Perhaps they do not affect you in the same way, however my concluding statement ("Beethoven's symphonies are among the greatest artistic achievements of the human psyche") is hardly a radical or farfetched one. One could make the same statement about the greatest works of Shakespeare, the poetry of Homer, or the paintings of Picasso. It's a spiritual reaction which I will agree not all share or, for that matter, accept as valid.


Ah, it didn't sound to me like you were voicing an opinion; it sounded like you thought your statement was factual. I accept your personal reflection - how could I not? - but by saying Beethoven's symphonies "are among the greatest artistic achievements of the human psyche", you suggest that there are some benchmarks you're working with, and some comparison that you've figured out with other works. I was hoping you could share the logic rather than state the opinion blankly!


----------



## ksargent

Polednice said:


> Ah, it didn't sound to me like you were voicing an opinion; it sounded like you thought your statement was factual. I accept your personal reflection - how could I not? - but by saying Beethoven's symphonies "are among the greatest artistic achievements of the human psyche", you suggest that there are some benchmarks you're working with, and some comparison that you've figured out with other works. I was hoping you could share the logic rather than state the opinion blankly!


I wouldn't have a clue as to how to construct a logical argument as to the relative merits of a work of art. How does one prove that Milton was a great poet? I know of of no benchmarks (and as a systems analyst, I have a great deal of experience with benchmarks  ) which would illuminate such an argument. It seems to me that any time one makes a statement such as this, one is stating an opinion. The value of that opinion rests in the regard that others have for the individual stating the opinion, I suppose - or perhaps in that person's professional reputation. Since I possess neither of these things, I will simply have to say IMHO and leave it at that. It is interesting, though: I would have thought my first statement would have been the controversial one.


----------



## Ukko

ksargent said:


> I wouldn't have a clue as to how to construct a logical argument as to the relative merits of a work of art. How does one prove that Milton was a great poet? I know of of no benchmarks (and as a systems analyst, I have a great deal of experience with benchmarks  ) which would illuminate such an argument. It seems to me that any time one makes a statement such as this, one is stating an opinion. The value of that opinion rests in the regard that others have for the individual stating the opinion, I suppose - or perhaps in that person's professional reputation. Since I possess neither of these things, I will simply have to say IMHO and leave it at that. It is interesting, though: I would have thought my first statement would have been the controversial one.


In any post where references are not given, IMO must be assumed. _Poley_ knows that; maybe he is having a bad drug reaction.


----------



## violadude

Hilltroll72 said:


> In any post where references are not given, IMO must be assumed. _Poley_ knows that; maybe he is having a bad drug reaction.


Nope just a bad reaction to over-excited Beethoven fans.


----------



## Webernite

I'm listening to Rondo Alla Turca while reading this argument.


----------



## Polednice

Hilltroll72 said:


> In any post where references are not given, IMO must be assumed. _Poley_ knows that; maybe he is having a bad drug reaction.


What an absolute lie. Where references are not given, people are usually avoiding the substantiation of spurious arguments. I forgive k though.


----------



## Ukko

Polednice said:


> What an absolute lie. Where references are not given, people are usually avoiding the substantiation of spurious arguments. I forgive k though.


Not a lie, a misapprehension. I _thought_ that _Poley_ knew. Perhaps I have been overestimating him.


----------



## TrazomGangflow

I can say that I enjoy their symphonies equally. I couldn't live without Beethoven's 6th or Dvorak's 8th. I would have to give Beethoven a slight edge though. I think Beethoven's 9th ranks him over Dvorak slightly but only by nanometers.


----------



## ksargent

On another topic Polednice wrote:
"While I do think that there are some vague objective qualities to music across time periods that we have not (and cannot?) properly define, I only care about and write about and argue about my subjective experiences."

That would seem to to be at odds your demand for any sort of proof - since by definition a proof involves the presentation of objective evidence and is non-subjective.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Dvorák is better than Beethoven. That is all I have to say.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

But then again, there are Beethoven works that are better than Dvorák works.


----------



## vladinsky

Dvorak is a special man,since he wrote the most beautiful concerto ever,but in this confrontation I would vote for Beethoven. There is a joke which is very true in viewing of importance of these works - How much symphonies did Beethoven write? Three. The 3rd, the 5th and the 9th!  My favorite is the 9th, but the others are great too.


----------



## Polednice

Hilltroll72 said:


> Not a lie, a misapprehension. I _thought_ that _Poley_ knew. Perhaps I have been overestimating him.


Hahaha, no, you're overestimating everyone else.


----------



## Polednice

ksargent said:


> On another topic Polednice wrote:
> "While I do think that there are some vague objective qualities to music across time periods that we have not (and cannot?) properly define, I only care about and write about and argue about my subjective experiences."
> 
> That would seem to to be at odds your demand for any sort of proof - since by definition a proof involves the presentation of objective evidence and is non-subjective.


My request was facetious - as anyone else who knows me better will tell you from experience with my posts - because I knew already that you could not provide proof.


----------



## Vaneyes

1. LvB
2. LvB
3. LvB
4. LvB
5. LvB
6. LvB
7. Dvorak
8. Dvorak
9. Tie


----------



## ksargent

Polednice said:


> My request was facetious - as anyone else who knows me better will tell you from experience with my posts - because I knew already that you could not provide proof.


Rookie error. I won't make the mistake of taking your postings seriously in the future.


----------



## Stroopwafel

Dvoooorrraakkk


----------



## Polednice

ksargent said:


> Rookie error. I won't make the mistake of taking your postings seriously in the future.


You're such a cutie.


----------



## brianwalker

ksargent said:


> How does one prove that Milton was a great poet?


http://www.hu.mtu.edu/~rlstrick/rsvtxt/eliot.htm


----------



## brianwalker

Meanwhile, there's an old, frail copy of an "Analytic Symphony Score" piano reduction of Dvorak's New World Symphony, which I found at a wonderful little used book store in Great Barrington, sitting on my piano, edited by Percy Goetschius, Mus. Doc. I'm a big fan of Percy Goetschius, Mus. Doc. - I've even got the same degree. I collect his theory books, published in the late 19th century (I first found one years ago in Trimpin's library), and love reading them. They're bracingly, menacingly hard-core. The fourth scale degree always resolves to the third, the seventh must rise to the octave, a iii6-4 chord can only follow I, and if you brazenly start a modulation with the I (one) chord of the new key as your pivot - well, may God have mercy on your soul, that's all Percy has to say. In my dreams I imagine teaching a beginning theory class with Percy's The Theory and Practice of Tone-Relations (1892), but the students would feel like they were on a chain gang. Every piece of music they look at would break Percy's iron-clad rules, and I'd have a hell of a time finding suitably strict musical examples. And yet, reading him, the reasons music is the way it is fall into place, and random-looking conventions come to seem inescapably logical. There is a reason, generally, to avoid the I chord as a pivot. Probably 98 percent of iii6-4 chords follow I with passing motion in the bass. The essence of music shines forth, isolated in the tight little net of Percy's mandates. This is a real man's theory, with none of your current-day liberal mollycoddling.

New World Symphony makes me wish I had taught the piece in the 19th-century course I just completed (the one whose papers I have yet to grade). I've never taught Dvorak, not having much use for him (I prefer the 5th, 6th, and 8th symphonies to the 9th, at least), but playing through it, I realize that the first movement of the New World is the most pedantically clear Romantic sonata-allegro I know of. Every melodic phrase is four measures. (Percy says every melody is four measures at heart: maybe two if it's slow, or eight if it's fast, and other lengths have to be accounted for by extensions or elisions. It's easy to see why he liked the New World.) Every four-, two- or one-measure unit gets repeated. Sometimes the tune is the same and the harmony changes, sometimes the notes change but the rhythm is repeated, sometimes the rhythm changes but the pitches are retained, but there's a fanatical insistence on leading the ear from measure to measure. No measure comes as a surprise, or almost even a contrast.









Really not so far from early minimalist practice, only less gradual and with conventional chord teleology. It's a smooth, smooth piece, didactically so; a child could make sense of it on first hearing. Its popularity with audiences couldn't be more explainable. Infinitely inferior to Brahms: one would almost wonder why Brahms so promoted Dvorak's career, except that it is the immemorial habit of composers to champion other composers whose works are in the same general style as their own but not as good. (An entire history of music could be written elucidating that one principle, especially in the post-WWII era when composers came to run the new-music performance scene.) But the New World - little more than a harmonic progression articulated by repetitious motives - would make a wonderful teaching piece, a template for composing large-scale forms by monotonous formula. The subtle continuities of Brahms, Bruckner, and Mahler are a little too creative and elevated for undergrads to understand, but the New World is right at their level, and assimilating it would make those other composers shine even more brightly. - Kyle Gann, Mus. Doc.


----------



## Truckload

I just found this forum, and I love it. I wish I had found this forum years ago! I was too busy working to have much time for music. I wish now I had put a higher priority on music.

Anyway, this topic perfectly fits with my most recent thoughts and activities. For the previous 40 years of my classical music listening life, I would have voted for Beethoven, and considered the question of the OP ridiculous. I always liked Dvorak, but never really appreciated him fully, until I started really studying his music. Just recently I purchased the Dover scores of Dvorak's Symphonies (4 to 9) and I have been listening to them and studying them intently. I find that Dvorak has an equally firm mastery over form, harmony, and development as Beethoven. However, Dvorak creates far more beautiful motifs and melodies. Dvorak also is a much better orchestrator than Beethoven. Of course Dvorak had a larger pallet to work with than LVB. After some reflection, I voted for Dvorak.

Thanks "brianwalker" for your very interesting post. I had never heard of Percy, but I am going to look him up right away!


----------



## ksargent

I had thought to abandon this conversation, as I agree with those who think it is pointless to compare artists beyond stating one's opinion - which is what I did. However, neither of these postings from BrianWalker constitute "proof" as I use the term - keeping in mind that I use the term in its mathematical sense. Accumulating critical reviews can be illuminating - and I will freely admit my own disadvantage in a discussion based on music theory. My reaction to music (and art in general) is usually not technical - it is (I use this term realizing that some will sneer) more of a spiritual reaction. And that is the basis for my comments on Beethoven. You may find that naive, childish, unschooled - whatever. I wrote what I believe to be the truth as I see it and as I experience it. That is all I can do. I think that Schumann hit the nail on the head when he wrote that the artist's duty is "to send light into the darkness of men's hearts." For me, both Beethoven and Dvorak fulfill that purpose. Perhaps a point about spirituality is best made by a spiritual master: 

"There can be no doubt that Beethoven’s music was often from another world; so it is quite possible for it to give the key to an inwardly sensitive hearer or to one who is seeking or ready for the connection to be made. But I think it is very few who get beyond being aesthetically moved by a sense of greater things; to lay the hand on the key and use it is rare. - Sri Aurobindo 

That may very well seem meaningless or silly to many. to each his or her own.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Not that I agree with the simpler is inferior conclusion that I seem to draw from brianwalker's post, but I just want to point out that Dvorak also has more complex works. Thank you.


----------



## Polednice

ksargent said:


> I had thought to abandon this conversation, as I agree with those who think it is pointless to compare artists beyond stating one's opinion - which is what I did. However, neither of these postings from BrianWalker constitute "proof" as I use the term - keeping in mind that I use the term in its mathematical sense. Accumulating critical reviews can be illuminating - and I will freely admit my own disadvantage in a discussion based on music theory. My reaction to music (and art in general) is usually not technical - it is (I use this term realizing that some will sneer) more of a spiritual reaction. And that is the basis for my comments on Beethoven. You may find that naive, childish, unschooled - whatever. I wrote what I believe to be the truth as I see it and as I experience it. That is all I can do. I think that Schumann hit the nail on the head when he wrote that the artist's duty is "to send light into the darkness of men's hearts." For me, both Beethoven and Dvorak fulfill that purpose. Perhaps a point about spirituality is best made by a spiritual master:
> 
> "There can be no doubt that Beethoven's music was often from another world; so it is quite possible for it to give the key to an inwardly sensitive hearer or to one who is seeking or ready for the connection to be made. But I think it is very few who get beyond being aesthetically moved by a sense of greater things; to lay the hand on the key and use it is rare. - Sri Aurobindo
> 
> That may very well seem meaningless or silly to many. to each his or her own.


I wouldn't personally use the word "spiritual", but I agree with you here (and I'm not being facetious!). I think we always ought to be suspicious when someone tries to convince us of an artwork's superiority by pointing to some authority figure who said it was. That just pushes the burden of proof back a step.


----------



## violadude

I voted Dvorak because his symphonies come with less hyperbole.


----------



## ksargent

Polednice said:


> I wouldn't personally use the word "spiritual", but I agree with you here (and I'm not being facetious!). I think we always ought to be suspicious when someone tries to convince us of an artwork's superiority by pointing to some authority figure who said it was. That just pushes the burden of proof back a step.


I agree. The writing of an authority figure represents (in this case anyway) little more than a well informed opinion, with which other authority figures are apt to take issue. What is important (it seems to me) is the connection between the artist and the consciousness of the consumer of the art, whether it's music, painting, poetry, or whatever. Which is not to say that all art is equal - but that's a different discussion.


----------



## brianwalker

emiellucifuge said:


> Not that I agree with the simpler is inferior conclusion that I seem to draw from brianwalker's post, but I just want to point out that Dvorak also has more complex works. Thank you.


 Kyle Gann, Mus. Doc. I didn't even say that he was right.

No one said he didn't have more complex works. I'm just trying to shed light on comments such as "Beethoven's symphonies are on another level from Dvorak's." (not my claim, _I haven't listened to much Dvorak, I didn't vote_). Perhaps DavidMahler really appreciates all the elements that Kyle Gann pointed out that Dvorak lacked.

I read his blog, I just thought I'd drop one of his posts here since it was thread-appropriate.



Polednice said:


> Prove it, please.





Polednice said:


> Why? . . . . . . . . . . .


What's the point of asking someone to prove something when nothing they can possibly say can count as proof?


----------



## emiellucifuge

Dont worry, I wasnt trying to accuse you of either of those things. Just being my typical Dvorak fanboy self. :tiphat:


----------



## Arsakes

Dvorak is my most favorite composer. :angel: Hayden is 2nd

Best of Dvorak symphonies in order: 7th, 3th (in Eb, Op.10), 9th 'Form the new World', 8th (in G major Op.88), 1st 'The Bells of Zlonice', 5th, 6th and 2nd ... sadly I dislike the 4th symphony (in Dm, Op.13), the downside of his music career. 

and best of Beethoven's symphonies: 5th, 6th, 3rd, 2nd, 7th, 9th


----------



## anshuman

Comparisons are odorous as Dogberry says. However One can say that the best of Dvorak beats Beethoven in its melodic wealth while nobody can beat Beethoven in terms of his explosive energy.


----------



## realdealblues

I love both of them, and it really is a case of apples and oranges. Beethoven will always be more popular because to the general masses his symphonies are generally more "catchy". I know 5 year olds who can hum the first bit of Beethoven's 5th. It's simple and catchy and something most people can grab onto. I've never heard a 5 year old hum Dvorak, not because they haven't been exposed to it, but because it's a bit more complex. 

It's kind of like taking a band like Pink Floyd vs AC/DC. Both are great and had relatively long careers. Pink Floyd weaved various melodies together to create a progressive more complex sound, where AC/DC is usually a 3 chord, straight-ahead rock band. Anyone who hears Back In Black one time can instantly hum it and remember it's AC/DC, whether they like it or not. Beethoven is quite often in that same boat. It's not that he can't be complex or isn't, it's just that simple melodies or motifs are more often the best at grabbing someones attention and Beethoven did that really, really well. I think the people who don't like Beethoven a lot of the time feel he's too "Pop".


----------



## Pizzicato

I'm going to have to say Beethoven. Symphony No 9 and Symphony No 3 are my two favourite Beethoven works. I do love Dvorak though (especially the second movement of his 9th Symphony.)


----------



## Lenfer

I fail to see the option for *L'enfer*...


----------



## Lenfer

Arsakes said:


> Dvorak is my most favorite composer. :angel:


----------



## jalex

realdealblues said:


> I love both of them, and it really is a case of apples and oranges. Beethoven will always be more popular because to the general masses his symphonies are generally more "catchy". I know 5 year olds who can hum the first bit of Beethoven's 5th. It's simple and catchy and something most people can grab onto. I've never heard a 5 year old hum Dvorak, not because they haven't been exposed to it, but because it's a bit more complex.
> 
> It's kind of like taking a band like Pink Floyd vs AC/DC. Both are great and had relatively long careers. Pink Floyd weaved various melodies together to create a progressive more complex sound, where AC/DC is usually a 3 chord, straight-ahead rock band. Anyone who hears Back In Black one time can instantly hum it and remember it's AC/DC, whether they like it or not. Beethoven is quite often in that same boat. It's not that he can't be complex or isn't, it's just that simple melodies or motifs are more often the best at grabbing someones attention and Beethoven did that really, really well. I think the people who don't like Beethoven a lot of the time feel he's too "Pop".


That's a tremendously superficial appraisal of Beethoven's symphonies. There's a reason he's considered (maybe along with Mahler) the greatest symphonist of all time. You ever actually studied any of his symphonies? I'll admit to never having studied anything by Dvorak (does that itself tell you anything?), but I would be extremely surprised to find the depth of Beethoven there. Certainly I'd have to agree with brianwalker's post about the first movement of Dvorak's Ninth - that's far closer to three chord pop than any Beethoven movement.


----------



## Lenfer

I don't study music like some here, I play, I listen and most importantly I enjoy. I have to agree with *Jalex* though I don't think you can sum it up in regards to what children know as this is down to pop culture. *Beethoven* is referenced a lot more in pop culture look at the clip I posted. Children at this age are like little sponges so they learn what they see and hear around them.

If a child grows up in a musical household like mine or just has a parent who is a big *Dvořák* fan it's entirely possible they could hum some *Dvořák*. I bet many children know *Entrance of the Gladiators* but couldn't tell it was written by *Fučík* who just so happens to be a countryman of *Dvořák*.

I haven't heard that many of *Dvořák* symphonies so I refuse to vote.


----------



## Polednice

Two quick points:

1) I think Beethoven and Dvorak probably have their equal share of easy tunes and complex melodies. There's the opening to Beethoven's 5th and the choral section of the 9th, and then there's the second movement of Dvorak's 9th and the themes to the Cello Concerto and Piano Quintet amongst others. I don't think either can be said to be more proficient at either kind of melody.

2) I think it's a shame that Dvorak is getting a bad rap because of this false equivalence between depth and difficulty, and "easy listening" and superficiality. Could it not perhaps be the case that Dvorak's 9th is deep despite its simplicity, or maybe even _because_ of it? A lot of people seem to think that the best compositions are the ones that smuggle in the most complexity possible while still being listenable. I don't subscribe to that view.


----------



## violadude

Polednice said:


> 2) I think it's a shame that Dvorak is getting a bad rap because of this false equivalence between depth and difficulty, and "easy listening" and superficiality. Could it not perhaps be the case that Dvorak's 9th is deep despite its simplicity, or maybe even _because_ of it? A lot of people seem to think that the best compositions are the ones that smuggle in the most complexity possible while still being listenable. I don't subscribe to that view.


I agree with this. Some things are ingeniously complex, others are ingeniously simple.


----------



## kv466

Okay, so this game is to just come up with some whacky question, right? Let's see,...

*Who has the better symphonies: William Boyce or Joseph Haydn? 
*
Is that how it works?


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

kv466 said:


> Okay, so this game is to just come up with some whacky question, right? Let's see,...
> 
> *Who has the better symphonies: William Boyce or Joseph Haydn?
> *
> Is that how it works?


It's Billy Boyce. It ain't Joe!


----------



## realdealblues

jalex said:


> That's a tremendously superficial appraisal of Beethoven's symphonies. There's a reason he's considered (maybe along with Mahler) the greatest symphonist of all time. You ever actually studied any of his symphonies? I'll admit to never having studied anything by Dvorak (does that itself tell you anything?), but I would be extremely surprised to find the depth of Beethoven there. Certainly I'd have to agree with brianwalker's post about the first movement of Dvorak's Ninth - that's far closer to three chord pop than any Beethoven movement.


You looked WAY to deeply into what I was saying. Geez, that's the 2nd time I've been ridiculed for saying something in a general way and have it taken completely out of context. Some of ya'll can be really touchy...lol. Apparently I need to remember I can't speak in general terms anymore.

I'm not even remotely saying Beethoven was 3 chord pop. What I was trying to convey is that he was really good at taking something like a very simple motif, like the very 1st part of his 5th symphony literally 4 notes and making it something instantly recognizable to the "Mass Populous".

Lenfer...I'm not saying a child couldn't hum Dvorak. I'm just saying I could probably play those first few notes to a child and he'd instantly recognize it, not necessarily that it is Beethoven. He could have seen it in a Bugs Bunny cartoon for all we know, but my point was those first 4 notes are so profound and bold and instantly recognizable to the general mass public that it's amazing.

It's like Salieri at the beginning of Amadeus where he's playing some of his melodies to a Priest who knows very little of music. Then he plays him Mozart and he instantly recognizes it. There is a reason why those works are so ingrained in our culture and have lasted and been as popular as they are for so many years.

I personally feel Beethoven was a master at those types of things. I could play Moonlight Sonata for my Boss at work who literally knows nothing about music and couldn't even name a classical composer and he would recognize it. I could play him anything from Dvorak and he wouldn't know any of it. Beethoven has been so ingrained in the world culture that you can't escape him. I'm not saying Dvorak didn't write something "catchy" or "profound" either, I'm just saying Beethoven was great at writing "hooks" that people just instantly remember after 1 hearing because they are so simple, yet totally profound and powerful. It was a very broad generalization that if you take 90% of the population of the world and play them the first few notes of Beethoven's 5th and then play them anything from Dvorak, more people would recognize Beethoven. Beethoven is just more popular with the masses because his works are used in commercials and movies and cartoons and whatever and has been used far more than Dvorak in my opinion.


----------



## Polednice

The popularity of a minority of Beethoven's themes ≠ superior symphonic output, the topic of this thread.


----------



## realdealblues

Again back to my original first sentence. "I love both of them, and it really is a case of apples and oranges." I don't think you can say anyone is better than anyone because everyone has their own opinion of what they like and dislike which is as it should be. I was only stating that Beethoven is more ingrained in our culture and will always be more popular. I didn't say anyone was better than the other...just the fact that Beethoven will always be more popular.


----------



## Polednice

realdealblues said:


> Again back to my original first sentence. "I love both of them, and it really is a case of apples and oranges." I don't think you can say anyone is better than anyone because everyone has their own opinion of what they like and dislike which is as it should be. I was only stating that Beethoven is more ingrained in our culture and will always be more popular. I didn't say anyone was better than the other...just the fact that Beethoven will always be more popular.


I'm going to indulge in a little pedantry, but you also said:

"There is a reason why those works are so ingrained in our culture and have lasted and been as popular as they are for so many years."

The implicit reasons seems to be that Beethoven's writing was superior. Did you mean something else?


----------



## realdealblues

My personal feeling is that Beethoven was a master at writing brilliant little motifs that were very "catchy" and the mass public latched onto that. If you want to call it more user friendly than so be it.

It's like Frank Zappa vs. The Beatles. Frank didn't get played on the radio because he didn't write 3 minute pop songs like "I want to hold your hand", but it doesn't mean that Frank's "Broken Hearts Are For ********" or "Why Does It Hurt When I Pee" or "Stick It Out" were any less greater compositions. It just means he didn't get airplay and not everyone understood him, yet his fans (like myself) are die hard loyal fans. 

My point being maybe the German & Austrian people (a large group of people at the time) GOT Beethoven because he was German more than they GOT the Czech Dvorak. Dvorak was writing operas in Czech instead of German when the real "mecca" of music at the time was Vienna where most people didn't speak Czech. Maybe he based melodies on Czech folk songs instead of German folk songs in his works so they were less familiar to the German people. There are a million variables there.

How come Joly Braga Santos isn't popular when he was probably the biggest composer to come out of Portugal? No offense to anyone from Portugal but probably because he came from Portugal. A smaller country and not the mecca of the music world at the time.


----------



## realdealblues

I also find the vibrations that create pitches in a certain sequence that make up a composition called Mozart's Requiem mass more audibly appealing than anything Dvorak or Beethoven wrote. It doesn't mean Mozart is a better composer it just means I like the way those notes go together. Maybe Beethoven's sequences of notes radiate more with a wider range of people than Dvorak and they find them more audibly pleasing...lol.


----------



## emiellucifuge

It seems a little odd to me that you use comparisons with pop musicians to make your point on a classical music forum.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Lenfer said:


> I don't study music like some here, I play, I listen and most importantly I enjoy. I have to agree with *Jalex* though I don't think you can sum it up in regards to what children know as this is down to pop culture. *Beethoven* is referenced a lot more in pop culture look at the clip I posted. Children at this age are like little sponges so they learn what they see and hear around them.
> 
> If a child grows up in a musical household like mine or just has a parent who is a big *Dvořák* fan it's entirely possible they could hum some *Dvořák*. I bet many children know *Entrance of the Gladiators* but couldn't tell it was written by *Fučík* who just so happens to be a countryman of *Dvořák*.
> 
> I haven't heard that many of *Dvořák* symphonies so I refuse to vote.


Listen to no. 5. It's the best of the lot.


----------



## Truckload

Polednice said:


> A lot of people seem to think that the best compositions are the ones that smuggle in the most complexity possible while still being listenable. I don't subscribe to that view.


That is such a good point! Complexity, if present, should serve art. Art created to serve complexity is liable to be sterile. Not that any of Beethoven or Dvorak is sterile.

More importantly, is Beethoven more complex than Dvorak? No, not by any objectively definable characteristic.

Melody - both LVB and AD sometimes create musical phrases and entire movements based on motives (motifs) and sometimes based on full song-like melodies. LVB is more known for his motives, like the fifth symphony, but the flowing melodies of the sixth symphony are as good as any melodies ever written by anyone. AD is more known for his melodies but the 4 note motive (8 notes with answer) of the 1st movement of the 9th is used brilliantly and with an emotional power second to none. Complexity about the same for both.

Harmony - LVB expanded the harmonic language of his time and used the dissonant (for that time) qualities of the seventh chord to achieve a greater dramatic effect than any predecessor. However, his harmonic language is comparatively simple compared to AD. AD uses more chromaticism, modulates to more distant keys, and is far less tied to the dominant-tonic relationship. AD was not an innovator, he was a perfecter. These expansions (improvements?) to the harmonic language of music were not his invention, but he used them with tremendous expression. The harmony of AD is more complex than the harmony of LVB.

Form - LVB morphed the Minuet into the Scherzo (thank God) but otherwise mostly stayed within the established forms. The forms used by AD are sometimes traditional and sometimes much more complex, even extending to the "through composed" type such as the slow movement of his 6th symphony. The forms used by AD are more varied and complex than LVB.

Orchestration - LVB's orchestration is string-centric. The winds are well used, but the brass is largely ignored most of the time. This was largely a function of practicality, what the players available to him (and just as importantly - their instruments) were capable of accomplishing. AD's orchestration is far more complex and creative. He makes full use of the brass (the instruments were vastly improved by his time), even using them to carry the melody in some soft passages. AD was a master of writing for the winds, and used them for color, for reinforcement, for solos, in choirs, in short in every possible manner. And of course, since AD started out earning his living as a cellist playing in symphonies and operas, his string writing is fabulous. His use of the string choir often is quite complex, including numerous divisi passages and colorations. LVB was certainly a master in his string writing, but he was not as daring with the strings as AD. AD's orchestration is far more complex than LVB's.

In short, AD manages to be easily accessible on a variety of listening levels while still being very complex.

Where LVB has a distinct advantage is in the areas of 1) breaking new ground, being an innovator and 2) he created 5 symphonic masterworks (greatest of the great) 3,5,6,7,9 while AD has only three symphonic masterworks 7,8,9. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Dvorak didnt play the cello, but the viola.


----------



## Truckload

emiellucifuge said:


> Dvorak didnt play the cello, but the viola.


My apologies, you are absolutely correct, viola.


----------



## Webernite

Are we seriously saying that Dvorak is more complex than Beethoven? I don't buy this.


----------



## jalex

Truckload said:


> Harmony - LVB expanded the harmonic language of his time and used the dissonant (for that time) qualities of the seventh chord to achieve a greater dramatic effect than any predecessor. However, his harmonic language is comparatively simple compared to AD. AD uses more chromaticism, modulates to more distant keys, and is far less tied to the dominant-tonic relationship. AD was not an innovator, he was a perfecter. These expansions (improvements?) to the harmonic language of music were not his invention, but he used them with tremendous expression. The harmony of AD is more complex than the harmony of LVB.


I'm somewhat suspicious of this. Examples? For instance, Beethoven pretty much established the practice of modulating to tertiary keys as important modulations in symphonies (okay, probably Haydn did it a couple of times before but if he did it never really caught on); the 7th is littered with A-C / A-F modulations, and the first movement of the 8th has that weird passage where the second subject is stated in the submediant C first, then there is a sort of apologetic transition passage to the dominant key before it is restated 'correctly' (not to mention to semitone shift in the finale). In his development sections he is as adventurous in modulations as anyone, to the point where contemporaries (specifically Cherubini, mentioned in Berlioz's Memoirs) complained of losing all sense of the piece's tonic key.



> Form - LVB morphed the Minuet into the Scherzo (thank God) but otherwise mostly stayed within the established forms. The forms used by AD are sometimes traditional and sometimes much more complex, even extending to the "through composed" type such as the slow movement of his 6th symphony. The forms used by AD are more varied and complex than LVB.


This is just rubbish. Along with popularising and increasing the importance of the scherzo (this time I know for a fact that Haydn invented it), we can also credit him with enormously enlarging the coda to a substantial section in its own right, almost functioning as a second development section at times (culminating in the finale to the 8th, where the coda takes up about half of the movement); greatly enlarging to the standard development section to allow for his trademark sustained developments; enlarging the scope of symphonic forms in general; using a variations finale to a weighty symphony; enlarging the slow introductions to Allegro movements; enlarging the scherzo form to ABABA (rather than the usual ABA) which paved the way for the later practice of having two independent trios (ABACA); establishing the practice of altering the standard four movement form by using _attacca_ movements or adding (/subtracting) movements (again, I bet Haydn was there first but it seems unlikely he used this effect in the same way as Beethoven); quoting material from earlier movements in later ones; establishing the choral symphony; and pioneering symphonic music without any conventional form at all (the final two movements of the 9th). As regards formal perfecion, it is generally agreed that Mozart and Beethoven are second to none. Is there a more tightly argued symphonic movement than the first of the Eroica? I know of none. Every note seems inevitable. Its 20-odd minutes fly by.


----------



## Truckload

jalex, thank you for that wonderful post. I really appreciate your very detailed points. You and I agree that LVB was an innovator. I was not trying to list every accomplishment of LVB in that regard, but simply giving an example. If Haydn invented the Scherzo, great. I certainly did not know that, but I take your word for it. However, I am sure you agree that LVB's use of and popularization of the Scherzo was an awesome achievement. In fact you yourself pointed in praise to LVB's work with the Scherzo in your post.

I love LVB and his symphonies. I completely agree with everything you pointed out in praise of LVB, and it was a pleasure reading your points. You obviously know your Beethoven. LVB was an innovator. He broke new ground. And not just change for the sake of change, either. Everything, well almost everything, that LVB created was a net positive. AD was not an inovator. Not in the sense that LVB was. In the area of innovation we can definately agree that LVB stands head and shoulders above AD.

My point was that Dvorak deserves a lot more credit than he is usally given. Especially regarding complexity. His symphonic writing is much deeper than it appears on the surface. Complexity in and of itself does not make one work or one composer greater than another in my opinion. But if you can find some joy in complexity, as I do at times, than Dvorak does have a lot to offer. 

Would you be open to discussing some additional specifics about Dvorak Symphonies? Not in the form of an argument, but in the form of a discussion and mutual appreciation? If so, I would love the chance to share some of my observations in considering Dvorak Symphonies and receive your thoughts and comments. 

Do we at least agree as to the quality and complexity of Dvorak's orchestration as it compares to LVB?


----------



## emiellucifuge

I, at least, certainly agree that Dvorak's orchestration was more complex. But one has to remember that huge progress in the build and design of instruments were made during the time between them.


----------



## Ellyll

I don't know about "best", as music is subjective, but Dvořák is my favorite.

He had the ability to make very profound emotional connections with music that at first appears to be very simple, but proves to be quite complex when studied. (Hard to explain, I know.)

I noticed a few people saying they had not heard Dvořák's work, I would strongly suggest you give it a try.

He actually had 5 well known symphonies during his lifetime, the most successful being the 7th, 8th and 9th, of course, but also the 5th and 6th.

Dvořák is massively under appreciated in the West, in my opinion, primarily because he was a Czech and his native tongue was a Slavic language.

He even wrote operas in Czech, which was unheard of. 




He also wrote what is widely considered to be the first very successful cello concerto.

I'll try to post some examples if I get some time, It really is worth checking out.


----------



## brianwalker

Note (someone might have said this before, I didn't bother to check): Why is the poll phrased as who wrote the "best symphonies" when it should be "better symphonies"? 

Even though Beethoven has been voted no. 1 symphonist here there's no guarantee that Dvorak is no. 2, and if the poll means anything he's more like no. 6.


----------



## Sonata

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^Dvorak's fifth is better than his ninth.


I haven't decided whether or not I like it better, but I get where you're coming from. Symphonies are far from my favorite genre of classical, but I listened to Dvorak's fifth for the first time Monday night, and I enjoyed it immensely, especially the first two movements.


----------



## Mesa

<-. But comparing Beethoven and Dvorak is like comparing apples and slightly less quality apples.











^, v, <, >, A, B, SELECT, START

Beethoven wins. Although i did just get infinite lives.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^But just because Beethoven is "slightly less quality apples" doesn't _always_ mean his symphonies are better.


----------



## Ellyll

I wish there was a high quality, uncut, attributed version of Dvořák's 7th on youtube, but I can't seem to find one.


----------



## Vaneyes

Ellyll said:


> I wish there was a high quality, uncut, attributed version of Dvořák's 7th on youtube, but I can't seem to find one.


There's a good one with Staats. Dresden/Haitink from the 2004 Proms. YT audio only.

Failing that, buy the NYPO/Bernstein.

View attachment 4420


----------



## TheComposer

I would go for beethoven because his first to the last symphonies are all well structured and orchestrated, whereas Dvoraks earlier works are less structured musically and thematically, although there are signs of what is to come. I still do love the 5th, 7th and 9th.


----------



## neoshredder

I like them both. I would say Dvorak's 9th is the better than any of Beethoven's symphonies but Beethoven I assume was way more consistent 1-9.


----------



## gr8gunz

Beethoven is the clear winner. Dvorak couldn't carry Beethoven's manuscript paper.


----------



## 4'33"

Is this a joke? Dvorak isn't fit to even lick Beethoven's boots. Give me a break! lol.............


----------



## violadude

4'33" said:


> Is this a joke? Dvorak isn't fit to even lick Beethoven's boots. Give me a break! lol.............


You remind me of a religious fundamentalist.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Dvorak's only great symphonies are 7,8,9 - to my ears.
Beethoven has 3,5,6,7,9
and 4,8 are fine.
Also - Beethoven's best are just unsurpassable


----------



## 4'33"

violadude said:


> You remind me of a religious fundamentalist.


Given that I'm an atheist I find your asinine response to my opinion rather humorous!


----------



## Hesoos

Dvorak can't compare with Beethoven. Beethoven is the best symphonist along with Mahler.


----------



## Renaissance

I really like Dvorak, but he can't overcame Beethoven simply because a follower never beats his master. Not by using his own techniques. And we clearly see Beethoven's influences in many of Dvorak's symphonies. He himself said that Beethoven is his hero. I don't know if you can compare them. Dvorak is more epic, Beethoven more profound, but this is just my opinion. Also, Dvorak's really good symphonies are only the last ones : 7, 8 and 9. His first one is interesting too, but a bit immature... 
So, in conclusion, if I have to vote for originality, for technique, I vote for Beethoven. His symphonies are also more homogeneous regarding artistic quality compared to Dvorak's. Besides his #1 and #2, all Beethoven's symphonies are top-notch. Dvorak have only three of these that can be considered in the same way.

So, my finale vote, regarding the overall aspect, is for Beethoven.


----------



## Carpenoctem

Dvorak's last symphonies are great, but overall, Beethoven is better.


----------



## asplund

Dvorak ´s Seventh is one of my favourites symphonies, but I think that all his symphonies are so influenced by Beethoven´s to say that these are better those, at least in regard to historical aspect. In my opinion, the importance and novelty that Beethoven´s symphonies had in his time is not comparable with Dvorak´s in his.


----------



## Novelette

I mean no disrespect to those who disagree...

But I'm glad that the vast majority have decided in Beethoven's favor. 

I love Dvorak's symphonies, but there isn't even slight competition from them to Beethoven's amazing symphonies.


----------



## AClockworkOrange

Beethoven without a doubt. Beethoven's Symphonic Cycle is my favourite by a long, long way.

Dvorak is a superb composer but even his greatest symphonies pale for me against Beethoven's. There is really no comparison.


----------



## Ondine

I gave my vote to Beethoven, but wait... Dvorak's ninth is superb and I prefer it to the ninth of Beethoven or to the eight. But anyway, when listening to Dvorak's I do not listen them making a comparison to any other symphonic work. Just listening Dvorak as Dvorak makes him the best in that very moment.


----------



## neoshredder

Yeah Dvorak's last 3 surpasses Beethoven's last 3 imo. But the first 6 are by far better for Beethoven.


----------



## KenOC

Dvorak. The name seems familiar. Could you spell that again, please?


----------



## clavichorder

4'33" said:


> Given that I'm an atheist I find your asinine response to my opinion rather humorous!


Atheists can be just as obnoxious as religious fundamentalists.


----------



## clavichorder

neoshredder said:


> Yeah Dvorak's last 3 surpasses Beethoven's last 3 imo. But the first 6 are by far better for Beethoven.


I feel that to be accurate for me too.


----------



## Ondine

neoshredder said:


> Yeah Dvorak's last 3 surpasses Beethoven's last 3 imo. But the first 6 are by far better for Beethoven.


Agree neo!


----------



## Ondine

clavichorder said:


> Atheists can be just as obnoxious as religious fundamentalists.


Neither atheism nor theism... that's the solution 

sorry... Back to Topic


----------



## Mahlerian

I'd take any of Beethoven's Symphonies over any of Dvorak's, but his 7th and 8th are nice enough.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I voted anti-conformist, but not for the sake of anti-conformism. :tiphat:


----------



## davinci

Mahlerian said:


> I'd take any of Beethoven's Symphonies over any of Dvorak's, but his 7th and 8th are nice enough.


I agree, but I'll give Dvorak a little more credit. His 7, 8, and 9 shows some maturity and finally gives us a sense of his style, although I believe he was very influenced by Beethoven. (I know others on this thread disagree).


----------



## mohammad

Hello friends
To me,this question is merely wrong.Beethoven and Dvorak both are excellent in symphonic works.What,s the reason to discuss who is better in writing symphonies.The periods in which those two masters wrote their symphonies are not alike.The personalities of these two masters are different.I prefer to reply to a better question.


----------



## Truckload

Wow, this thread has lasted an entire year. 

On Influences, Dvorak did admire LVB and like many of his generation, including Brahms, cited LVB as his greatest influence. Every art music composer after LVB has been influenced by him to some degree or another. Does that mean no one can surpass LVB? LVB himself studied with Haydn and was certainly influenced by him. Can LVB not surpass Haydn?

Why compare music and judege it? We do so to grow in knowledge and appreciation of the art and the specific works we study. For example, unless you have really, really good ears, you will never fully appreciate the daring use of chromaticism in a Schumann symphony until you study the score and analyze the harmonies. Studying Dvorak symphonies was a real eye opener for me in appreciating and enjoying his music and his talent.

This is not something exclusive to music. There is nothing wrong with just reading a novel and enjoying the story. For someone really into Literature, a study of plot exposition, character develop techniques, and use of plot timing might magnify their understanding and enjoyment of that same book by looking at the writing on a deeper leve.

I find examing, comparing, analyzing and judging music vastly increases my enjoyment, and appreciation.


----------



## nightscape

Dvorak was destined to lose this poll by a vast majority. As a set, of course Beethoven's are greater. I don't think you can even begin debating that. 

Dvorak isn't on even playing field with all 9 symphonies. However, with the exception of Beethoven's 9th, I would match Dvorak's 6-9 with any other 4 of Beethoven's. No, I'm not joking.


----------



## Ukko

Aside from being "symphonies", I hear them as only distantly related. Different modus operandi.


----------



## Llyranor

I feel Dvorak's symphonies are uneven. 7-9 are some of my favorites of any composer, but the others were only 'good enough'. However, I could say the same for Beethoven as well - some of his symphonies do not blow my mind.

That being said, I received bought the Otmar Suitner cycle for Dvorak, and have gained a much greater appreciation (my previous one was the Kertész) for his first 6 now.

All in all, I can't pick. I love Beethoven, but I love Dvorak too. I can't give one the edge, even if by popular concensus the choice 'should' be Beethoven.


----------



## billeames

Dvorak good ones in my opinion are 7 8 9, but 5 good too. 1 is entertaining. Beethoven of course had great impact with 9th. The better ones in my opinion are 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th. Favorite Dvorak cycles are Kertesz and Rowicki. 

Beethoven is a deep subject for performances. Karajan '62, Szell best in my opinion. Best Beethoven 5th is Furtwangler May 1947 in Original Image Bit Processing (Japan DG). Kleiber Erich, and Carlos, good for more modern performances. Karajan also. Best Beet 9th hard to say, so many good ones. Isserstedt, Fricsay, Karajan come to mind. For better sound perhaps Dohnanyi Telarc? Abbado 1999 not bad either on Sony. I grew up with Szell though.


----------



## Pedro de Alvarado

Without question: Beethoven. I like Dvorak's last couple symphonies, but even those two won't top the holy Eroica


----------



## lupinix

I only know two dvoraks symphonies, of which I still have to learn the 8th one better (you can guess the one I do really know), so I simply can't choose yet 
I like those two dvorak symphonies a lot though, but anything can still happen, as I also don't know beethovens 8th and 1st and 3rd really well


----------



## mtmailey

You got to be kidding i think you have it backwards here.


----------



## Novelette

Mahlerian said:


> I'd take any of Beethoven's Symphonies over any of Dvorak's, but his 7th and 8th are nice enough.


It's difficult; I think I could trade Beethoven's 2nd Symphony for Dvorak's 8th--under one condition: namely, that we could detach the finale from Beethoven's 2nd and let it stand alone. It may be cheating, but so be it.


----------



## Neo Romanza

I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for saying this but I never cared much for Beethoven's symphonies and I nothing but love Dvorak's symphonic output, so Dvorak for me all the way. This said, I think Beethoven was better in writing on a smaller scale, but, again, Dvorak wrote so much lovely chamber music.


----------



## Morimur

I voted for Beethoven but Dvořák was also an artist of the highest order. It's matter of individual preference when it comes to such uncommonly gifted individuals.


----------



## omega

Olias said:


> Taken as a complete set of nine symphonic works, Beethoven's is in my humble opinion the greatest set of symphonies ever composed. HOWEVER, Dvorak's final three symphonies are easily on equal footing with any of the Beethoven nine.


That's why I choosed Beethoven : all of his symphonies are masterpieces, whereas Dvorak reached his highest level only with his last ones.


----------



## csacks

Is there anything better that Beethoven´s 9th?. (Yes, Brahms´s 1st). But it is all long after both of them. 
I like Dvorak, but to me, there is no comparison in between them. Sorry, but it is a matter of personal taste, not a universal statement.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Funny thread. What's next? Justin Bieber vs. Bach?

OK, OK, much bigger difference here but still Beethoven's symphonies are better technically than Dvorak's, They are much more subtle and more rewarding on repeated listenings (and I love Dvorak's music too). Dvorak's are a lot more accessible on first hearing since they contain more appealing melodies (Dvorak's is without a doubt a better melodist than Beehoven) but do no contain as much depth as Beethoven's. Heck, if there was only Beethoven's 3rd and 4th symphonies, I would still consider him better.


----------



## mtmailey

Crudblud said:


> Dvorak. Don't get me wrong; I like Beethoven and all, but I find his symphonies to be among his worst work. And I guess I have a special attachment to Dvorak's 9th, which is allegedly the first piece of music I ever heard when I was two days old. When I heard it in full for the first time since then (last year) something came over me, I did feel a genuine sense of belonging. I don't think I genuinely remember hearing it back in 1989, but there's definitely something else there.


DVORAK music is mature compared to beethoven.


----------



## Oskaar

I find myself compare different works from different composers with Bethoven lately, probably because I like Beethoven lesser and lesser. There will probably come to a turningpoint, cause I SEE his greatness. But is he really that great? Listened to his violin concerto today, and the rhondo is nothing less than terrible. (Thats a bit strong, but I find it annoying.) But its probably me. Things can change.


----------



## nightscape

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> ...but do no contain as much depth as Beethoven's.


This isn't even close to being accurate.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

nightscape said:


> This isn't even close to being accurate.


It's bang on accurate. But of course there's some subjectivity to it. We can try to have an objective discussion about the technical aspects of the two composers's music but I think we inevitably will arrive at the need for some subjective value thrown into the argument. It's OK to like Dvorak better but to claim that he is a better symphonist is just silly. That's like claiming Mozart was better at writing fugues than Bach.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

If you consider Beethoven's 1-6 vs. Dvorak's 1-6, this would be a laughable comparison. Dvorak's 1-4 are just OK, and 5 and 6 are good. Beethoven's 3rd and 5th are among the top symphonies ever written and the 4th is great too.

If you consider Beethoven's 7-9 vs. Dvorak's 7-9 then the comparison becomes more even but still Beethoven's set wins.


----------



## Art Rock

It seems you have a problem confusing personal opinion and fact.

When you say "If you consider Beethoven's 7-9 vs. Dvorak's 7-9 then the comparison becomes more even but still Beethoven's set wins." this is plain wrong. You can make this statement for yourself, but not for someone else.


----------



## Art Rock

To elaborate, when I (as invited by you) consider Beethoven's 7-9 vs. Dvorak's 7-9, I will conclude that I clearly prefer that Dvorak subset (Dvorak 9 far over Beethoven 7, Dvorak 8 over Beethoven 8, Dvorak 7 far over Beethoven 9).


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Art Rock said:


> It seems you have a problem confusing personal opinion and fact.


Then this thread should be re-named to "whose symphonies do you like better?", not "who has best symphonies"

Then it becomes a complete matter of personal opinion.


----------



## nightscape

I quoted you on the "depth" issue, not the "technical" one. Depth does, to a degree, rely on the composers technical ability. Certainly Beethoven was a great technician. But depth is so much more than that. Depth is the ability to transform. 

Objectivity is, of couse, non-exist with music. Music cannot be neutral or impartial. Nature doesn't care if Beethoven is better than Dvorak. If you view objectivity as a collection of understands we have as a species to distinguish something good from something bad (e.g. my napkin doodle of a stick figure is objectively worse than a painting by Delacroix), then I agree that we can have a discussion about Dvorak's lesser technical ability, or perhaps Beethoven's clumsy orchestration. But to represent the gap between these two artists with such incredible distance I believe is a misstep.

Dvorak was a late bloomer, but his 6-9 are nothing short of brilliant.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

nightscape said:


> I quoted you on the "depth" issue, not the "technical" one. Depth does, to a degree, rely on the composers technical ability. Certainly Beethoven was a great technician. But depth is so much more than that. Depth is the ability to transform.
> 
> Objectivity is, of couse, non-exist with music. Music cannot be neutral or impartial. Nature doesn't care if Beethoven is better than Dvorak. If you view objectivity as a collection of understands we have as a species to distinguish something good from something bad (e.g. my napkin doodle of a stick figure is objectively worse than a painting by Delacroix), then I agree that we can have a discussion about Dvorak's lesser technical ability, or perhaps Beethoven's clumsy orchestration. But to represent the gap between these two artists with such incredible distance I believe is a misstep.
> 
> Dvorak was a late bloomer, but his 6-9 are nothing short of brilliant.


That I agree with. Except maybe I'll quibble and exclude the 6th from the list of brilliant works. Yes, I was referring to the depth that comes from the greater technical skills Beethoven has. There are aspects of Beethoven's music that are worse than Dvorak's, for example orchestration as you mentioned and melody. I do love Dvorak's music too. To me it's his 7th symphony that is his best but all three of 7-9 are brilliant, no doubt.


----------



## nightscape

I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread.



nightscape said:


> Dvorak was destined to lose this poll by a vast majority. As a set, of course Beethoven's are greater. I don't think you can even begin debating that.
> 
> Dvorak isn't on even playing field with all 9 symphonies.


So I do agree with the vast majority of voters on this one. It's only when you take a more precise snapshot that Dvorak's skill and greatness is more apparent. It's one of the main reasons I hate polls like "who's the best this, or that". Why does anyone have to be the best anything? If Dvorak had written one symphony, and it was a masterpiece, is he in any way _not _ a great symphonist? I don't see the quantity of output all that relevant.


----------



## lupinix

Well this is really hard for me to answer.
I don't know most symphonies of Beethoven well (save perhaps 5, 7 and 9) and same goes for Dvorak (save 8 and 9)
Also Dvorak was so much obviously influenced by Beethoven it hardly seems fair to compare them
But I would rather listen to the new world symphony than to any of Beethoven's
So I really can't chose...


----------



## mtmailey

Well to tell the truth DVORAK symphony 9 sounds WAY better than BEETHOVEN symphony 9.


----------



## AH music

Musings on this poll and similar comparison threads..... To those who are dismissive of Dvorak 1-6 and regard Beethoven as unassailable - have you really listened to /studied them as much as you did Beethoven 1-6 (or 1-2, 4, 8) before you truly got to know and appreciate them? Just wondering - I am getting to know Dvorak's earlier symphonies and they are all growing on me to the extent I am beginning to doubt whether Beethoven would necessarily get my vote, which is where I assume my vote would have gone until very recently. 

Beethoven's landmark series is so deservedly recognised that most newcomers getting into the world of the classics will be prepared to put some time and effort into listening and appreciating these works, whilst early Dvorak is a bit under the radar - but are his works not also worth the same time and effort before reaching a conclusion....? 

(On the other hand, early over-playing of Beethoven at the expense of others, as in my case, may have led to some sort of fatigue? Maybe I'm just enjoying Dvorak, eg no 5 is playing right now, because there's something new to me, that whilst also definitely good, may not stand the test of time?) I need to get them into balance in my experience before voting. Most of the time these days, those, Dvorak's characteristics seems to fit my appreciation of symphonic listening material more than Beethoven's.


----------



## mtmailey

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^Dvorak's fifth is better than his ninth.


I think you got it backwards here number 9 is his best over number 5.


----------



## nightscape

Dvorak is the unfortunate victim of having his earlier symphonies unpublished during his lifetime, and only discovered much later. As a result, the numbering of his symphonies, and their composition order, were sort of all over the place for a while. His earlier symphonies didn't really have a chance to become popular in a naturally progressing appreciating manner.


----------



## hpowders

Beethoven rules here.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

I get more pleasure from Dvorak's Seventh and Eighth Symphonies than any of the Beethoven Nine Symphonies.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

Tapkaara said:


> I voted Beethoven, of course.
> 
> I really, really do not understand Dvorak. I hate to say this, but I find him incredibly boring.


With all the poetry, charm and glorious dynamics in Dvorak's music, characterizing it as boring is incomprehensible to me. But, subjective response certainly encompasses a broad range of feeling. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

OP: Might as well ask who has the best baseball team, the New York Yankees or Savannah Mudpies?


----------



## dillonp2020

Top symphonists for me:

Beethoven
Mahler
Shostakovich
Mozart
Dvorak
Dvorak is perhaps unlucky as I haven't heard all of his symphonies, whereas I've heard all of Beethoven's several times.


----------



## EdwardBast

To me it is surprising Dvorak did as well as he did. About twice the votes I would have expected. Beethoven blows Dvorak off the stage.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Who in the universe compares Beethoven and Dvorak? Why compare anything...


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

hpowders said:


> OP: Might as well ask who has the best baseball team, the New York Yankees or Savannah Mudpies?


For the old Brooklyn Dodger fans, hating the Yankees dramatically overrode any acknowledgment that they were the best. :lol:


----------



## Tchaikov6

My top 10 symphonists:

1. Mahler
2. Tchaikovsky
3. Beethoven
4. Brahms
5. Sibelius
6. Schubert
7. Mozart
8. Schumann
9. Prokofiev
10. Shostakovich

Yep... Dvorak is probably 12 or 13. But not even close.


----------



## Bulldog

My top 10:

1. Shostakovich
2. Mahler
3. Beethoven
4. Weinberg
5. Haydn
6. Mozart
7. Prokofiev
8. Sibelius
9. Myaskovsky
10.Bruckner


----------



## Bettina

Beethoven is my favorite symphonist. However, Dvořák is quite good too and he is in my top ten. Here's my list of favorite symphonists:

1. Beethoven
2. Brahms
3. Mozart
4. Haydn
5. Tchaikovsky
6. Dvořák 
7. Schubert
8. Mendelssohn
9. Schumann
10. Berlioz (because of Symphonie Fantastique...I actually don't know if he ever wrote any other symphonies.)


----------



## AfterHours

Probably something like... 

1. Beethoven
2. Mahler
3. Shostakovich
4. Brahms
5. Mozart
6. Bruckner
7. Schubert
8. Haydn
9. Prokofiev
10. Dvorak

(Note: Tchaikovsky is probably #11)


----------



## Pugg

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Who in the universe compares Beethoven and Dvorak? Why compare anything...


To be fair, see the date poll started. ( 2011)
On topic, Beethoven for me.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Beethoven for me too, but I'd hate to be without Dvorak's symphonies.


----------



## Merl

Beethoven. Now that's a surprise!


----------



## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> To be fair, *see the date poll started. ( 2011)*
> On topic, Beethoven for me.


We need a new poll in case the overall TC opinion may have changed since so long ago. 

By the way, I voted Beethoven. It was a no-brainer decision for me.


----------



## Larkenfield

Apples and oranges. I enjoy the Beethoven symphonies because of their challenge and depth; and I enjoy the Dvorak symphonies for their color, sincerity and amiability. It's hard to go wrong with either set. I very much love the Dvorak 7th and 8th symphonies, not to mention his 9th, which was one of the first, most exciting symphonies I've ever heard, and I still feel that way after many, many years.


----------



## gprengel

I adore Dvoraks 7th and 9th, but from the 8th I only really love the soo melodious Trio part from the 3rd mov. 
What do you appreciate in the 8th?


----------



## Holden4th

This question is a no brainer for me. The great LvB!


----------



## Pugg

Holden4th said:


> This question is a no brainer for me. The great LvB!


80 % voted for Beethoven, i do think we have a clear winner.


----------



## Jacred

Bettina said:


> Beethoven is my favorite symphonist. However, Dvořák is quite good too and he is in my top ten. Here's my list of favorite symphonists:
> 
> 1. Beethoven
> 2. Brahms
> 3. Mozart
> 4. Haydn
> 5. Tchaikovsky
> 6. Dvořák
> 7. Schubert
> 8. Mendelssohn
> 9. Schumann
> 10. Berlioz (because of Symphonie Fantastique...I actually don't know if he ever wrote any other symphonies.)


He finished three more after the Symphonie Fantastique.


----------



## hpowders

It's not even close, nor should it have been.


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> We need a new poll in case the overall TC opinion may have changed since so long ago.
> 
> By the way, I voted Beethoven. It was a no-brainer decision for me.


Perhaps we can do a new one , after the holidays.
( Christmas I mean )


----------



## Klassik

hpowders said:


> It's not even close, nor should it have been.


In Dvořák's defense, I like my least favorite Dvořák symphonies better than I like my least favorite Beethoven symphonies. I have not quantitatively assigned grades to each symphony though so I can't really say which composer average would be better. It would probably be Beethoven though. Anyway, I like listening to both.


----------



## hpowders

Klassik said:


> In Dvořák's defense, I like my least favorite Dvořák symphonies better than I like my least favorite Beethoven symphonies. I have not quantitatively assigned grades to each symphony though so I can't really say which composer average would be better. It would probably be Beethoven though. Anyway, I like listening to both.


You are entitled to your opiñion.


----------



## David Phillips

Beethoven's 5th and Dvorak's 9th Symphonies surpass their previous efforts in the form with fresh, vital ideas that push the symphony to a new level. Dvorak is famous for the loud, extended codas of his orchestral works. The 'New World' ends in a surprise diminuendo. So clever, and so memorable.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Not sure I'd agree that Beethoven's Fifth surpasses the "Eroica", but agree otherwise.


----------



## Tim Speer

Overall I would say Beethoven.


----------



## Pugg

Tim Speer said:


> Overall I would say Beethoven.


And so did 174 other voters.


----------



## Larkenfield

mtmailey said:


> i am not trying to start anything bad here.


The underlying question is who would win between them in a boxing match. I believe Dvorak was more of a lover than a fighter, and Beethoven probably had a mean uppercut that he would rather avoid using. Both wrote nine symphonies, and Dvorak knew a lot more about steam locomotives because they hadn't been invented in Beethoven's day. Both win on points.


----------



## Crystal

I voted Beethoven. Simply amazing.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Bettina, how many times did you vote ???


----------



## Czech composer

For me problem with Dvorak symphonic cycle as a whole is, that there is included his first two symphonies. 
I think they shouldn´t be there, because it is unfair to the composer and it is downgrading his whole output.
His first two symphonies were written in time when he has no experiences with this form. And I would say
it wasn´t his fault. Musical education in Bohemia in his time was far from good. Bohemia was mostly provincial.
He was writing this only under under impression of Beethoven symphonies knowing very little about form, 
driven by intuition. For example first movement from his second symphony has nothnig to do with symphonic form.
There aren´t classical three themes in exposition, but there is unbeliavable something like 7 themes so it is basically Fantasy. 
Dvorak knew it and he never published his first two symphonies. And in the case of his first symphony which was lost during his lifetime, he never had chance for revision. He revisited second later in life, but it still wasn´t good for him to publish it.
So I would rather say, that his first two symphonies should be considered something like "Symphonic-scetches"

PS: I love music of his first two "symphonies" and there is a lot of good, but it simply isn´t coherent because lack of access to some good teachers.


----------



## FredericBernard

Dvorak without a doubt!


----------



## Pugg

FredericBernard said:


> Dvorak without a doubt!


Did you see the difference in votes?


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Wow 13 pages on this. 
Has anyone said anything about anyone else's mother?


----------



## haziz

Of course Beethoven. Everything he touched turned to gold - well almost everything, Wellington's Victory for e.g. not so much, though even that is probably better than the output of 99.97% of the composers out there.

I do love Dvorak however and am a huge fan of his symphonies, particularly 7-9, but also enjoy his earlier efforts. The only other composer that comes close to Beethoven's heights, is Tchaikovsky. At least to me, everything he touched did turn to gold.


----------



## MusicSybarite

It would be more appropriate to compare composers from the same period, e.g. Händel and Bach, Brahms and Tchaikovsky, Holst and Rachmaninov, etc. Respectfully, this question doesn't make sense for me.


----------



## bestellen

Beethoven is the clear winner.


----------



## Pesaro

I find very little to enjoy in Dvorak's 1st Symphony and it is too long, IMO. The last two movements of No. 2 are excellent but the first two movements suffer from the same problems as the first, little inspiration and poor construction. What it comes down to is that Dvorak wrote 7 1/2 really fine symphonies, Beethoven wrote 9. That is why I voted for Beethoven.


----------



## Bulldog

I would have voted for Beethoven if he had composed only one symphony - the Choral.


----------



## Pugg

bestellen said:


> Beethoven is the clear winner.


With almost 81% behind him, you say that again.


----------



## Larry

Dvorak appeals to the modern ear because of more modern orchestration. Beethoven sounds dated because most of the symphonies lack trombones, tubas, harp, etc. Beethoven's melodies, IMO are somewhat simple as compared to Dvorak. But Beethoven was the original and therefore the best.


----------



## Pesaro

Beethoven used trombones in the 5th, 6th and 9th symphonies. Composers, IMO, should use whatever instruments they think are appropriate for the work. For example, Mahler decided not to use trombones in his 4th symphony. It is the only Mahler symphony without trombones. At times I could swear there are trombones but it is probably the 3rd or 4th horn playing in a very low register.

The strangest instrument omission is the Brahms Serenade No. 2 which has no violins. The work is still quite gorgeous.


----------



## SONDEK

> Musings on this poll and similar comparison threads..... To those who are dismissive of Dvorak 1-6 and regard Beethoven as unassailable - have you really listened to /studied them as much as you did Beethoven 1-6 (or 1-2, 4, 8) before you truly got to know and appreciate them? Just wondering - I am getting to know Dvorak's earlier symphonies and they are all growing on me to the extent I am beginning to doubt whether Beethoven would necessarily get my vote, which is where I assume my vote would have gone until very recently. - A H MUSIC


A H MUSIC

I have to say, I agree with the direction of your thinking here.

It simply amazes me - in this thread and others - that nobody ever extols the virtues of DVORAK's earlier symphonies - and all the acclaim is on the last three.

Yes, the last three DVORAK symphonic works are truly wonderful. No question.
(The 8TH being deeply under-rated, I feel...)

But personally, I listen to DVORAK's wonderful Symphony No. 3 more than all of his others these days. This is not to cast aspersions on the last three DVORAK classics, but I feel that after decades of listening to the same symphonic outings, it's always great to hear something new (new to the listener at least...) by a favourite composer like DVORAK.

I discovered the DVORAK 3RD and 6TH Symphonies about 15-years ago. 
(Actually, they still feel like quite a recent find... LOL!)

With these thoughts in mind, I'd like to recommend the following album... Always in heavy rotation around our way. - well at least in the recent 15-years or so.

Give it a go. You might like it...
(Yep - SPOTIFY has a copy on the shelf...)

And if you are really lucky, you may even find a Vinyl LP version of the superb KERTESZ/LSO reading of the 3RD, on LONDON/DECCA!


----------



## SONDEK

> Best of Dvorak symphonies in order: 7th, 3th (in Eb, Op.10), 9th 'Form the new World', 8th (in G major Op.88), 1st 'The Bells of Zlonice', 5th, 6th and 2nd ... sadly I dislike the 4th symphony (in Dm, Op.13), the downside of his music career. - ARSAKES


Ahem... Well, I stand corrected.

It seems I'm not alone in enjoying the DVORAK SYMPHONY No. 3.

(Thanks ARSAKES...)


----------



## jim prideaux

anyone who enjoys Dvorak's 3rd is not alone......I have 'banged on' about it over the last few years on here, as with earlier 'posters' I listen to it regularly-the 2nd movement is simply magnificent....as with Arsakes the one I least enjoy is the 4th!


----------



## SCSL

I’m a bit late to this party, and it’s sad for me to vote against Dvorak, my 3rd favorite composer, and the mind behind two of my top five favorite symphonies... But for me, Beethoven wins this battle hands down.


----------



## Pugg

SCSL said:


> I'm a bit late to this party, and it's sad for me to vote against Dvorak, my 3rd favorite composer, and the mind behind two of my top five favorite symphonies... But for me, Beethoven wins this battle hands down.


We can safely say you are in the majority .


----------



## hpowders

Obviously Beethoven, but he loses to Haydn. Sorry, Ludwig.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Fake News .


----------



## Pugg

BEETHOVEN 80.99% Clear winner 
no need for a recount or stolen bought votes.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Wait wait wait, the ballot boxes from the Czech Republic have just arrived............


----------



## MarkW

This is a weird question. It's like asking who's the better novelist -- Dickens or Proust?


----------



## Locrius

I feel like Beethoven overall is able to maintain a higher quality across the board amongst his symphonies, but then there are a select few Dvorak symphonies that totally knock a bunch of Beethoven out of the water, for me at least.


----------



## Pugg

Locrius said:


> I feel like Beethoven overall is able to maintain a higher quality across the board amongst his symphonies, but then there are a select few Dvorak symphonies that totally knock a bunch of Beethoven out of the water, for me at least.


Nice first post, welcome to Talk Classical Locrius .


----------

