# Twelve Tones - a very clever YT vid



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I found this while playing around on Youtube a couple of days ago.

It was created by a woman named Veronica Hart who has a degree in composition, and who's parents are mathematicians. She also does some great vids with math.

I thought it was clever, funny, insightful in ways beyond music. Don't let the length of the vid dissuade you from watching, the time will go quickly.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Simon Moon said:


> I found this while playing around on Youtube a couple of days ago... I thought it was clever, funny, insightful in ways beyond music. Don't let the length of the vid dissuade you from watching, the time will go quickly.


I really enjoyed this! But it *was* a trifle long. I'd encourage people to watch it, but not to feel too guilty if they fade before the end...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*wow
outstanding*​


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow and outstanding indeed!

Brilliant, engaging, funny, and filled with some truly pithy statements and insights. 
I'd urge to anyone more than a little interested in music a full viewing, or two....


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## Berlioznestpasmort (Jan 24, 2014)

Thank you, thank you, thank you - very grateful to you for passing that along. What a delight! I learned a lot along the way. Goodnight, Moon!


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm glad that those that watched it enjoyed it so much.

Your reactions were not unlike mine.

Watch her other vids, they are shorter, and just as entertaining and insightful.


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## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

Ms. Hart wrote: "At the moment I'm adding all new videos here, and am slowly going through the backlog to get them available as well."

This video introduced me to her.





^ What is up with Noises? 
The Science and Mathematics of Sound, Frequency, and Pitch​


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yuck! I can't think of anything worse than a woman (sounds more like a teenage girl) trivializing 12-tone music, and passing it off as cutesy, teddy-bear humor. Her condescending exposition of her cleverness is repelling. She is so stuck in her mindset of normalcy and status quo complacent identity that she is totally unaware of any true artistic awareness, and is the opposite of that. She is the ultimate "insider," as if tonality were a junior high-school "in crowd" of which she is the spokeswoman. Wanna buy some girl scout cookies?_ No, thank you._


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yuck! I can't think of anything worse than a woman (sounds more like a teenage girl) trivializing 12-tone music, and passing it off as cutesy, teddy-bear humor. Her condescending exposition of her cleverness is repelling. She is so stuck in her mindset of normalcy and status quo complacent identity that she is totally unaware of any true artistic awareness, and is the opposite of that. She is the ultimate "insider," as if tonality were a junior high-school "in crowd" of which she is the spokeswoman. Wanna buy some girl scout cookies?_ No, thank you._


I didn't take it as trivializing 12-tone music at all. (Did you watch the whole video?)

And I don't see why her sex should matter.

And by the way, you come off as far more condescending than she ever does.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yuck! I can't think of anything worse than a woman (sounds more like a teenage girl) trivializing 12-tone music, and passing it off as cutesy, teddy-bear humor. Her condescending exposition of her cleverness is repelling. She is so stuck in her mindset of normalcy and status quo complacent identity that she is totally unaware of any true artistic awareness, and is the opposite of that. She is the ultimate "insider," as if tonality were a junior high-school "in crowd" of which she is the spokeswoman. Wanna buy some girl scout cookies?_ No, thank you._


While I did dislike the fact she rather missed the point with her harmonising the twelve tone rows tonally (yuck), and didn't even begin to talk about the variations of a row, it was a clever and well-made video and I think you are being a little overly harsh! If anything I think her approach was one of an outsider, the humour seemed self-aware, as though she knew Schoenberg and Stravinsky were geniuses, and still had fun with her own viewpoint.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I thought her video was remarkably funny, entertaining, and inventive. It's clearly aimed at those who don't understand 12 tone music and think it's unlistenable. The point is to get those people to think, "Hmm, maybe there's more to this stuff than unmelodic crap." I think she succeeds rather well. 

I thoroughly enjoyed every aspect of the video. Thanks for posting, Simon Moon.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Jobis said:


> While I did dislike the fact she rather missed the point with her harmonising the twelve tone rows tonally (yuck), and didn't even begin to talk about the variations of a row, it was a clever and well-made video and I think you are being a little overly harsh! If anything I think her approach was one of an outsider, the humour seemed self-aware, as though she knew Schoenberg and Stravinsky were geniuses, and still had fun with her own viewpoint.


Actually, unless I misheard her, she did acknowledge that what she was doing was somewhat opposite the intent of the original 12-tone composers.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I guess I take my 12-tone music more seriously than she does. I've heard that *Snuggle Bear *is presently working on a 12-tone string quartet, for use in the next fabric softener commercial. After the disappointment of* Poppin' Fresh's Eighth Symphony, *I'm expecting quite a bit from this bear.* Hello Kitty's *opera left something to be desired, as well.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

How dare anyone have fun with music!


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> *Yuck! I can't think of anything worse than a woman (sounds more like a teenage girl)* trivializing 12-tone music, and passing it off as cutesy, teddy-bear humor. Her condescending exposition of her cleverness is repelling. She is so stuck in her mindset of normalcy and status quo complacent identity that she is totally unaware of any true artistic awareness, and is the opposite of that. She is the ultimate "insider," as if tonality were a junior high-school "in crowd" of which she is the spokeswoman. Wanna buy some girl scout cookies?_ No, thank you._


Does it matter if she is a woman?



millionrainbows said:


> I guess I take my 12-tone music more seriously than she does. I've heard that *Snuggle Bear *is presently working on a 12-tone string quartet, for use in the next fabric softener commercial. After the disappointment of* Poppin' Fresh's Eighth Symphony, *I'm expecting quite a bit from this bear.* Hello Kitty's *opera left something to be desired, as well.


Her video was actually inspired by stravinsky's the owl and the pussycat which is not really a serious piece.

Your reaction seems very similar to that of a teenager who realizes that his music is not shocking his parents anymore.


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

I really like Vihart. While I always enjoyed watching her videos about math, I've never really cared about the musical ones, because I could not understand them. But this one was really good, so maybe I should give them another try.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Piwikiwi said:


> Her video was actually inspired by stravinsky's the owl and the pussycat which is not really a serious piece.


You beat me to it.

Because of course, all 12-tone music has to be completely serious.

Not allowed to have fun with it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Yuck! I can't think of anything worse than a woman (sounds more like a teenage girl) trivializing 12-tone music, and passing it off as cutesy, teddy-bear humor. Her condescending exposition of her cleverness is repelling. She is so stuck in her mindset of normalcy and status quo complacent identity that she is totally unaware of any true artistic awareness, and is the opposite of that. She is the ultimate "insider," as if tonality were a junior high-school "in crowd" of which she is the spokeswoman. Wanna buy some girl scout cookies?_ No, thank you._


I must admit, something about the presentation rubbed me the wrong way too. This person strikes me as somehow full of hubris and cynicism. She doesn't seem to take the music too seriously, like there is no depth or mystery there, just something that can be figured out like a mathematical equation. She obviously seems intelligent, but her videos seem more about flaunting her cleverness and trying to show the world "hey I'm cute, and I'm cool" than they do about her genuinely trying to teach something useful. I'm open to the possibility that I'm somewhat jaded and wrong though, but I honestly couldn't make it to the end of that video. I tried another one of her videos and had the same problem.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

tdc said:


> I must admit, something about the presentation rubbed me the wrong way too. This person strikes me as somehow full of hubris and cynicism. She doesn't seem to take the music too seriously, like there is no depth or mystery there, just something that can be figured out like a mathematical equation. She obviously seems intelligent, but her videos seem more about flaunting her cleverness and trying to show the world "hey I'm cute, and I'm cool" than they do about her genuinely trying to teach something useful. I'm open to the possibility that I'm somewhat jaded and wrong though, but I honestly couldn't make it to the end of that video. I tried another one of her videos and had the same problem.


Sorry but 12 tone music simply isn't that complicated. I don't get why so many people want to mystify music. Music isn't that complicated. Your don't hear people complaining about knowing grammar/symbolism etc in language. This woman has a composition major. I'm 100% sure she takes it seriously but that doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. A lot of music is mathematical but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any depth.

Also I seem to sense quite a bit of sexism in the posts by both of you. I highly doubt you would have reacted the same way if she was man.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Piwikiwi said:


> Sorry but 12 tone music simply isn't that complicated. I don't get why so many people want to mystify music. Music isn't that complicated. Your don't hear people complaining about knowing grammar/symbolism etc in language. This woman has a composition major. I'm 100% sure she takes it seriously but that doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. A lot of music is mathematical but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any depth.
> 
> Also I seem to sense quite a bit of sexism in the posts by both of you. I highly doubt you would have reacted the same way if she was man.


Its not really about complexity or simplicity, its her approach and her attitude that turn me off. She did another video where she was doing a presentation in front of an audience and she started off singing with them and after she said (paraphrase) " now you will enjoy the presentation more because you feel like you've participated." Its like to her everything is about intellectual facts, not that there could have been a genuine sense of bonding with her and her audience - but she acts as if she knows their psychological workings and exploits that. I find a similar attitude in advertising and it comes across to me as distasteful and insincere.

I don't think sexism accounts for it at all as Gubaidulina is one of my favorite composers and after reading the interview with her (which you can find in the Composer Guestbook section of the forum) I had nothing but a heightened respect for her and her approach to music. I sensed that to her music is a spiritual thing, not just some commodity.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Piwikiwi said:


> Sorry but 12 tone music simply isn't that complicated.


I have to agree. She thoroughly yet basically explained it enough to be clear to the layman (how many _not fully successful attempts_ to explain it to the total layman have we seen from intelligent and learned TC colleagues?) That ability to explain something like serialism to the general audience seems to take a particular genius akin to rocket science 

She covered a lot else quickly and in a matter of fact manner, too. I liked especially the statement that if you are writing directly in an old style, when it was new that style expressed something, but to adhere to it now makes a piece which is but an _attempt (i.e. failure)_ to express something 

Yes, she used duodecaphony in a tonal way -- after first briefly explaining the 'atonal' quality and what Schoenberg originally set out to do -- and then said how she was using it. (But who hasn't used serialism to their own means and ends over the past sixty years vs. Arnie's means and ends?) To rephrase Some Guy's statement, _"It ain't your Grandma's duodecaphony anymore."_


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Simon Moon said:


> Because of course, all 12-tone music has to be completely serious.
> 
> Not allowed to have fun with it.


Also, Webern wrote a "Kinderstuck" for piano as one of his first 12-tone works (published posthumously).


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

Hi, first post here. 

I don't understand what the rage is about the video either. That video (1,438,937 views on youtube) probably exposed more people to the basic idea of 12-tone music than any number of music theory classes have. A little bit of whimsy never hurt anyone.


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