# Best westerns



## Metairie Road

One of the greats.

*Shane* 1953

Gunfight scene - Over in three seconds with nothing left but a ringing in the ears and the smell of stale beer and gunsmoke.






The soundtrack music by Victor Young was perfect.






Best wishes
Metairie Road


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## Joe B

Other's worth a mention in this great genre:





































........I'll stop there!


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## elgar's ghost

_The Good, The Bad & The Ugly_ - great plot with different twists and turns and so atmospheric you can virtually smell the sweat and choke on the dust.


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## Biffo

elgars ghost said:


> _The Good, The Bad & The Ugly_ - great plot with different twists and turns and so atmospheric you can virtually smell the sweat and choke on the dust.


I second that, great movie.


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## Jacck

the best western books were written by a German who never visited America - Karl May.
and the best western movies were made by Italians - the Italian spaghetti westerns
some other good westerns are The Magnificent Seven, although it is a rip-off of the Seven Samurai by Kurosawa
and Dances With Wolves by Kostner. Clint Eastwood made some great westerns, both spaghetti and non-spaghetti ones
but overall, western is not my favorite genre


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## Jacck

and some modern/recent westerns I enjoyed...
Django Unchained
The Hateful Eight (remake of the Spaghetti western Il grande silenzio)
The Revenant


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## DavidA

The Man who shot Liberty Vallance

Stars a little elderly but what a movie and what direction by John Ford

"Print the legend!"


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## Metairie Road

elgars ghost said:


> _The Good, The Bad & The Ugly_ - great plot with different twists and turns and so atmospheric you can virtually smell the sweat and choke on the dust.


True. I have to admit though that my favorite Clint Eastwood movie is 'The outlaw Josey Wales'. A little more depth of character than the inscrutable nameless stranger form the Leone movies.


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## DeepR

Well, I'm not very original but:

The Good, The Bad & The Ugly
Once Upon a Time in the West

These also happen to be just about my favorite movies of all time... 
Something about the style of these movies, I love it so much. I treasure both of them and watch them once every few years with tremendous enjoyment. The simple but clever plot, the slow pace, the character close ups, the wide landscape shots, the acting, the music, the atmosphere. Absolutely fantastic movies that in some ways will never be bettered. Almost every shot and every scene is a little piece of art by itself.
Once Upon A Time in America is a similar and the third masterpiece by Sergio Leone.


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## Phil loves classical

Metairie Road said:


> One of the greats.
> 
> *Shane* 1953
> 
> Gunfight scene - Over in three seconds with nothing left but a ringing in the ears and the smell of stale beer and gunsmoke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The soundtrack music by Victor Young was perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best wishes
> Metairie Road


Shane is my favourite movie of all time. A work of art. It was my avatar for a while.

Other favourites are Red River (the best John Wayne role in my opinion), McCabe and Mrs. Miller, My Darling Clementine. The Naked Spur.


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## Rogerx

One of my biggest favorites.


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## ldiat

BLAZING SADDLES (PS viewing posts even in Las Vegas!)


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## Rogerx

ldiat said:


> BLAZING SADDLES (PS viewing posts even in Las Vegas!)


Have a good/ great time!


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## jiraffejustin

Westerns I like in chronological order:

The Paleface (1922)
Go West (1925)
The Wind (1928)
Stagecoach (1939)
The Ox-Bow Incident (1943)
My Darling Clementine (1946)
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1948)
High Diving Hare (1949)
I Shot Jesse James (1949)
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949)
The Baron of Arizona (1950)
Broken Arrow (1950)
The Furies (1950)
Drip-Along Daffy (1951)
Shane (1953)
Johnny Guitar (1954)
The Searchers (1956)
3:10 to Yuma (1957)
The Tin Star (1957)
Day of the Outlaw (1959)
One-Eyed Jacks (1961)
A Fistful of Dollars (1964)
For a Few Dollars More (1965)
Django (1966)
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966)
The Great Silence (1968)
The Mercenary (1968)
Cemetery Without Crosses (1969)
The Wild Bunch (1969)
The Ballad of Cable Hogue (1970)
El Topo (1970)
The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean (1972)
Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973)
Blazing Saddles (1974)
The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)
The Grey Fox (1982)
Back to the Future Part III (1990)
Unforgiven (1992)
Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada (2005)
The Good the Bad the Weird (2008)
Meek's Cutoff (2010)
The Backwater Gospel (2011)
Django Unchained (2012)
Bone Tomahawk (2015)
The Hateful Eight (2015)


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## geralmar

Obscure; but powerful-- and so meanspirited that one of the Three Stooges knifes a sheriff in the back. (1958).



Excellent score by Alfred Newman:


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## Guest

Well, spaghetti westerns were fun enough, but I prefer _High Noon _and _The Searchers, True Grit _(2010) and _Guns in the Afternoon. _If it's got Gary Cooper, James Stewart or Randolph Scott, I might watch it, but it's not a genre I particularly favour.


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## Gordontrek

Both the original and remake of *True Grit* are two of my favorite westerns. I think the newer one is slightly better in terms of both acting and general quality, but they both have their charms. Plus, I could listen to Jeff Bridges' delicious Texas drawl all day.

*High Plains Drifter* is too much overlooked, I believe. It's classic Clint Eastwood.

*Blazing Saddles* in my opinion only loosely qualifies as a western, but it is very funny and is a truly groundbreaking work.

And of course, *The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly* may just be the greatest western ever made.


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## Metairie Road

Epic music for an epic movie, Jerome Moross' soundtrack music from '*The Big Country*'.






Adios amigos


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## Merl

I love this classic. Not watched it in ages, though.


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## Ingélou

I was brought up on westerns, a fixation of my father (he was an ex-boxer and loved anything with fighting in it).

As well as films, we watched every weekly western serial going - off the top of my head, Laramie, Gunsmoke, Wagon Train, Bonanza, Rawhide, Bronco Lane, Wells Fargo, Cheyenne, Tenderfoot...

Lucky for me that I did love the genre, or I'd have died of boredom. I loved, and I still do, the westerns of the classic age, most of which have been mentioned; plus some that came a little later, such as The Big Country, The Magnificent Seven and Gunfight at the OK Corral.

Because of this, I am fascinated by American history - maybe also because my Scottish grandfather saw one of the later Wild West Shows in Dundee when he was four years old, and actually shook hands with Buffalo Bill.

John and I recently read up on the Earp brothers, who seem to have been a band of thugs. It was shortly after that that we re-watched Gunfight at the OK Corral, which we'd found in a charity shop, and it added extra enjoyment, being able to pick holes in it, historically speaking. 
Still a good story.

We both love the Star Trek version of OK Corral, where the Earps are the baddies.






Because I'm of the era when it was all taken seriously, and the western was a sort of morality play, I'm not a great fan of spaghetti westerns, extra violent westerns, and satirical or comedy westerns, though I do love Blazing Saddles and Support Your Local Gunfighter.

One later 'take' on the western genre - apologies if it's been mentioned already - is the science fiction film Westworld. Yul Brynner as the robot gunslinger who just won't give up is terrifying.


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## geralmar

Excellent 1967 "slowburn" western about the aftermath of Gunfight at OK Corral (1957). Same director but distinctly non-heroic tone.

screen shot software


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## KenOC

_True Grit_ has been made twice, I think. The first time (1969) had John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn reprising Humphrey Bogart's _African Queen_ character, a major triumph for him. The only real liability was Glen Campbell as La Boeuf, a total miscast even though a secondary character. The second (2010) starred Jeff Bridges with a uniformly excellent cast and beautiful detail, but it may have lacked some of the magic of the first. I find it hard to choose between the two.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn reprising Humphrey Bogart's _African Queen_ character,


Do you mean his portrayal of Cogburn was reminiscent of Bogart's portrayal of Charlie Allnut?


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## KenOC

MacLeod said:


> Do you mean his portrayal of Cogburn was reminiscent of Bogart's portrayal of Charlie Allnut?


I don't know about the portrayal, but the two characters certainly seem similar to me!


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## Hugo9000

geralmar said:


> Excellent 1967 "slowburn" western about the aftermath of Gunfight at OK Corral (1957). Same director but distinctly non-heroic tone.
> 
> screen shot software


I love James Garner, but I've never even heard of this film! Shame on me, I'll have to get it. Thanks for posting this!


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## Hugo9000

I'm not really a fan of Westerns, other than the Clint Eastwood ones, and I love pretty much all of his! Is that odd? Not sure what it is about the others I've seen that turns me off, or what it is particularly about his films that I enjoy that accounts for such a difference in view.

*Two Mules for Sister Sara* was the first one I remember seeing, and it has remained a favorite. I think *The Good, the Bad and the Ugly* is the most wonderful of them all, though. Eli Wallach gives one of my all-time favorite performances in this film, he's just incredible!


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## ldiat

Merl said:


> I love this classic. Not watched it in ages, though.
> 
> View attachment 106364


and what movie was this based on??


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## KenOC

ldiat said:


> and what movie was this based on??


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## Phil loves classical

The best recent western I've seen is Hell and High Water. I really liked the remake of 3:10 to Yuma with Christian Bale. I hated the more recent True Grit except for Matt Damon's role. Hateful Eight is probably my favourite Q Tarantino movie.


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## Guest

Yes, Ken, and I know which I liked better. I was disappointed by _Seven Samurai _when I finally got to see it. Lauded by the critics, its appeal was lost on me, and I know whose opinion is more reliable! :lol:


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## amfortas

_Once Upon a Time in the West_ is probably my favorite Western. Among recent films, I was very impressed with _Hostiles_.


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## Larkenfield

*Quigley Down Under * with Tom Selleck
[video]https://goo.gl/images/pQftjn[/video]


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## philoctetes

Once Upon a Time in The West, best in every way. Just ask the Harmonica Man... "You don't know how to play"...

Those scripted by Elmore Leonard are pretty close, 3:10 to Yuma, Valdez is Coming, Hombre...


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## Josquin13

The Outlaw Josey Wales
High Plains Drifter
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

Blazing Saddles
A Fistful of Travellers' Cheques: 




More recently,

Seraphim Falls
The Salvation
3:10 to Yuma
Tombstone
Open Range
The Proposition (Australian film)
Slow West
Sweetwater


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## Varick

- The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly of course
- Silverado
- True Grit (both but have to give the nod to the remake)
- Dances with Wolves
- Wyatt Earp (with Kevin Costner). I thought the intensity of the character was amazing. When I first started watching it, I was comparing Dennis Quaid's Doc Holiday against Val Kilmer's (who did a great job) from Tombstone. By half way, I was retrospectively comparing Kilmer's against Quaid's. That's how good Quaid was.
- Unforgiven
- Pale Rider.
- Open Range. I loved the wisdom in that movie. Great lines.

"Boss Spearman: _A man's trust is a valuable thing, Button. You don't want to lose it for a handful of cards."_

Mack: _Shame what this town's come to._
Charley Waite: _You could do something about it_.
Mack: _What? We're freighters. Ralph here's a shopkeeper._
Charley Waite: _You're men, ain't you?_
Mack: _I didn't raise my boys just to see 'em killed._
Charley Waite: _Well you may not know this, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dying.
_
Charley Waite: _I'm tryin' to put some bad times behind me, but sometimes they don't stay put_.

I've never seen The Searchers. Have to put that one on my list. Constantly told it's a great one.

V


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## Varick

Just saw the remake of Magnificent Seven. Fun movie. A bit too cliched but, Westerns are the one genre I kind of enjoy the old cliche's. Like the guy going into the store front, you can hear the fighting and the camera stays outside. You know someone's getting thrown through the window. The new Magnificent Seven had cliche's by the fistful. Not great, not horrible either.

I loved the original Seven Samurai. That's a great flick.

V


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## Xaltotun

I'm a great fan of westerns. My favourites include:

_Red River
Rio Bravo
My Darling Clementine
Fort Apache
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
The Searchers
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance_

and one more recent one as well, _Dead Man._


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## Ingélou

We just watched Shane last night - as usual, a dvd from a charity shop. I remember it was one of my father's favourite westerns, because of all the fighting (Dad had been an army boxer in WW2) and I was often bored by the TV reruns as a child.

However, I was wrong, I admit it - we really enjoyed it. I especially enjoyed the 'realistic life details' such as the comment on the use of the best plates with even an extra fork, the dance, the asking of the Swedish farmer Shipstead to say the Lord's Prayer in the absence of a preacher, the muddy lane in front of the saloon, the little girl telling Joey that a foal would bite him etc.

It was a thoughtful film, and a lot of thought *had* gone into it - it underwent the editing process for nearly 2 years.

This link has a lot of fascinating details, often very amusing too, about the shooting of the film:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046303/trivia


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## Triplets

I just watched the Russel Crowe remake of 3:10 To Yuma a few days ago and enjoyed it immensely.


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## JAS

Shane, Shane, come back Shane!

I watched the "new" Magnificent Seven recently, and hated pretty much every moment of it. I had to pull out my DVD of the original version just to reassure myself. (The "new" version has a strong cast, and clearly a pretty big budget, but it feels as if it is trying so hard not to just be a remake of the original that it left out all of the things that made the original magnificent.)


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## Strange Magic

I especially enjoyed Sam Peckinpah's _The Wild Bunch_; also the Christian Bale remake of _3:10 to Yuma_ previously mentioned; the first _True Grit_; and Spencer Tracy in _Bad Day at Black Rock_. But I pretty much enjoy westerns as a genre. However, one of the very finest efforts in the genre was not a movie but rather the genius miniseries made of Larry McMurtry's _Lonesome Dove_ with an amazing cast led by Robert Duvall. It didn't hurt that the book upon which the series was based was itself superb. See it if you possibly can.


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## CDs

Surprised nobody has mentioned this one yet.


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## Guest

CDs said:


> Surprised nobody has mentioned this one yet.
> 
> View attachment 107571


Wasn't that the place where the other Lebowski lived? I didn't have it as a western


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## geralmar

My favourite comedy western-- not a genre I particularly care for. (Yes, I've seen Blazing Saddles.)



TV, 1972.


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## geralmar

Obscure, but fine "modern western". (The posse includes a helicopter.)



1962


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## geralmar

My favourite "guilty pleasure" western. The protagonist is sulky and selfpitying (or Dane Clark just wanted out of the movie); and when the pass is reached the movie acquires a weird and squirmy Freudian undertone, probably unintended. Maybe a dozen Indians and half as many horses. Filmed in the ubiquitous Bronson Canyon; b&w and dirt cheap. Fine underscore, however, composer unidentified-- possibly library music.



1954


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## BHKraft

*The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford*

The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford

Song for Jesse

Falling

Rather Lovely Thing


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## Red Terror

*The Great Silence (Il Grande Silenzio, 1968) dir. Sergio Corbucci*


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## Mifek

Here is my personal Top Twenty list:

1. *Unforgiven* 1992 (10/10)
2. *Dances with Wolves* 1990 (8/10)
3. *Little Big Man* 1970 (8/10)
4. *A Man Called Horse* 1970 (8/10)
5. *Jeremiah Johnson* 1972 (7/10)
6. *Once Upon a Time in the West* 1968 (7/10)
7. *Red River* 1948 (7/10)
8. *The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance* 1962 (7/10)
9. *Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid* 1969 (7/10)
10. *The Big Country* 1958 (7/10)

11. *The Revenant* 2015 (7/10)
12. *Maverick* 1994 (7/10)
13. *Blazing Saddles* 1974 (7/10)
14. *Rio Bravo* 1959 (7/10)
15. *El Dorado* 1967 (7/10)
16. *True Grit* 2010 (7/10)
17. *Warlock* 1959 (7/10)
18. *The Outlaw Josey Wales* 1976 (7/10)
19. *The Searchers* 1956 (7/10)
20. *Stagecoach* 1939 (7/10)


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## Manxfeeder

MacLeod said:


> Yes, Ken, and I know which I liked better. I was disappointed by _Seven Samurai _when I finally got to see it. Lauded by the critics, its appeal was lost on me, and I know whose opinion is more reliable! :lol:


I'm glad I'm not the only one disappointed by Seven Samurai.


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## Manxfeeder

Ingélou said:


> We just watched Shane last night - as usual, a dvd from a charity shop.]


If you ever get the chance, there was a TV series about Shane's life after the movie starring David Carradine and Jill Ireland. It's very good, and it unsentimentally shows how ridiculously hard it was to scratch out a living in the Old West.


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## Mifek

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one disappointed by Seven Samurai.


And I am one of those who after seeing both Magnificent Seven and Seven Samurai cannot stand watching Magnificent Seven again, as this is like comparing a true masterpiece with a second- or third-rank movie.


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## Dulova Harps On

No Name On The Bullet


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## Ingélou

We just watched (again) the black & white original version of* 3.10 to Yuma (1957)*.










It's good - though clearly derivative from High Noon with the townspeople deserting the decent man dealing with an outlaw. But it's very thoughtful, pitting the attractive outlaw chief (Glenn Ford) against the stubborn but still tempted rancher (Van Heflin). I like that the rancher's wife, Alice, does look a bit worn with all the hard work she's had to do.

In the end, the slick outlaw Ben Wade is touched by Dan the rancher's decency and helps him to get his mission accomplished by jumping on to the train.

Alice, Dan's wife, drives to a point where she can see the train, fearing the worst. The bit where she sees the two men and realises that her husband has made it and is still alive had me reaching for the Kleenex.


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## Biwa

I'm a big fan of Westerns. Recently I enjoyed Bad Company (1972) directed by Robert Benton. It's a story of a group youngins lead by Jeff Bridges that heads west to avoid being drafted into the American Civil War. It's a relatively quiet film about their trials and tribulations.


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## geralmar

Pleased to see the thread revived. In the 1950s through the mid 1960s, the major Hollywood studios maintained specialized units which pumped out annual "quota ("B") westerns" because westerns were guaranteed moneymakers. The units had their own actors, directors, technicians, horse wranglers, stuntmen, etc. A Navajo tribe profited by playing hostile Indians, almost always identified as Apaches. Playing villainous Apaches did not much bother the Navajos because historically the Apaches were their hated rival tribe. I remember reading circa 1967 that holdout 20th Century Fox was disbanding its westerns unit because of declining audiences. The studio's annual quota for westerns at the time was twelve, I recall. The Italians quickly filled the gap for "B" westerns as John Wayne and Clint Eastwood kept the struggling "A" western alive in the U.S.

Two excellent, obscure "genre" westerns:


1959


1961


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## Phil loves classical

Will always be Shane for me. Another great Western for me is the first Virginian 1929 with Gary Cooper. I thought the absence of any music made it more atmospheric. Worked great with the hanging scene and the gunfight. Huston was a good villian. My Darling Clementine had great cinematography and better story than the Searchers.


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## Tchaikov6

Blazing Saddles easily... not a huge fan of Westerns.


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## philoctetes

Didn't see Tombstone mentioned... though unintended it's nearly an adaptation of Oakley Hall's Warlock, a novel of which Thomas Pynchon has said "that what is called society, with its law and order, is as frail, as precarious, as flesh and can be snuffed out and assimilated into the desert as easily as a corpse can. It is the deep sensitivity to abysses that makes Warlock one of our best American novels." 

The movie Tombstone is pretty good too. Apparently Warlock was adapted to film in 1959 but I have not seen it.

I am also a big fan of Red River...


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## Tchaikov6

philoctetes said:


> Didn't see Tombstone mentioned... though unintended it's nearly an adaptation of Oakley Hall's Warlock, a novel of which Thomas Pynchon has said "that what is called society, with its law and order, is as frail, as precarious, as flesh and can be snuffed out and assimilated into the desert as easily as a corpse can. It is the deep sensitivity to abysses that makes Warlock one of our best American novels." The movie is pretty good too.


Tombstone's good too, though not a favorite.


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## Bulldog

Mifek said:


> Here is my personal Top Twenty list:
> 
> 1. *Unforgiven* 1992 (10/10)
> 2. *Dances with Wolves* 1990 (8/10)
> 3. *Little Big Man* 1970 (8/10)


Those are also my three favorite westerns. Little Big Man would be first on my list - such an epic film.


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## Dodecs

i love the great silence with kinski - also johnny guitar by nick ray 
for something more contemporary I'd go with the homesman by tommy lee jones.


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## TheMusicalScorpio

elgars ghost said:


> _The Good, The Bad & The Ugly_ - great plot with different twists and turns and so atmospheric you can virtually smell the sweat and choke on the dust.


my favourite western


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## Guest

This is a very good western, though it's more of a two hander with Cooper and Kelly. Would have suited a theatrical treatment, especially with the excellent script of Carl Foreman: I just love this exceptionally evocative score from Tiomkin, sung by Tex Ritter: and Zimmerman a great favourite director of mine.






Some trivia: Floyd Crosby ASC was the cinematographer on this film; his son, David, was a singer in Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.

Another great Tiomkin score for a western: actually probably the best - "Rio Bravo" (the first 1:30 minutes here):






Trivia 1: Hawks had a great relationship with Dimitri Tiomkin and wanted him to score "Hatari" in 1961, after "Rio Bravo". Hawks wanted him to include African musical instruments to fit with the film and Tiomkin said it couldn't be done. Hawks sacked him on the spot and hired Henry Mancini.

Trivia 2: Leigh Brackett wrote the screenplays for both "Rio Bravo" in 1959 and "El Dorado" in 1966. She complained to Hawks that the latter was simply a re-make of the 1959 film and not as good and Hawks replied, non-plussed, "if they don't like it give 'em their dime back"!!


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## Guest

I just found this on U-Tube: the title music from Howard Hawks's "*El Dorado*" from 1967. Music by Nelson Riddle!! It's not as good a film as "Rio Bravo", on which it is based. I've read a lot of scholarly work on Howard Hawks and "Rio Bravo" in particular. I have adored Howard Hawks all my life.






At the end of one school year, prior to Christmas, I showed this film to 14y/o boys and girls. This was some years ago. The kids were not used to westerns as these had lost their popularity. At first they turned their noses up because it was a clearly a dated film, but they soon became engaged. A good group of kids, not in the brightest stream; one boy came up to me afterwards and said, "Miss, I really loved that music at the opening of the film. Thanks for showing it".


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## Sad Al

I like Sergio Leone's westerns, especially Once upon a time in the west.

Not exactly a western, but this is a good documentary about "Wild Bill" Hickok, perhaps the greatest gunfighter.


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## Rogerx

wrong thread, sorry.............


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## ldiat

Rogerx said:


> wrong thread, sorry.............


being on talk classical forum means never having to say your sorry


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## Rogerx

ldiat said:


> being on talk classical forum means never having to say your sorry


That's from the movie "Love Story"


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## Guest

I'm on the same page as this academic, Molly Haskell, about Howard Hawks and the "Hawksian woman" (Think especially "His Girl Friday"!). (Haskell's husband was the late film critic Andrew Sarris).

https://www.tiff.net/the-review/molly-haskell-on-lauren-bacall-and-the-hawksian-woman

(Hawks was mad about Lauren Bacall and during the making of "To Have and Have Not" he and Bogey came to blows!!)


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## PaHaydnAdventure

How about _La Fanciulla del West_? :lol:

A few other recommendations:

If you like the Kurosawa proto-Westerns, _Yojimbo_. It's basically the source for Leone's "A Fistful of Dollars" and a number of other similar movies. The theme of a ronin samurai roaming from town to town and getting involved in defending the downtrodden generally dovetails well with the Shane/Pale Rider type Westerns.









And then for actual Westerns, McCabe and Mrs Miller. It's a Robert Altman movie starring Warren Beatty and Julie Christie.









A recent one, by the Coen brothers: _The Ballad of Buster Scruggs_. It features several vignettes with a huge cast, including Tom Waits here as a prospector:


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## Kieran

PaHaydnAdventure said:


> A recent one, by the Coen brothers: _The Ballad of Buster Scruggs_. It features several vignettes with a huge cast, including Tom Waits here as a prospector:
> 
> View attachment 134062


Yeah, I really enjoyed the stories in this one.

Unforgiven is probably the western I've watched most times. It's like an Old Testament parable of how to dispense justice. Really a great heroic tale, and the cast was a bit special too, especially Gene Hackman...


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## Flamme

I had a strong ''aversion'' towards westerns and ''spaghetti westerns'' in particular when I was younger but now I devour them, especially the 2econd group!!! My favs are likes of 







I like the humour, easy going atmosphere and social notes in them...


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## Tchaikov6

My current top 10:

1. There Will be Blood
2. Unforgiven
3. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
4. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
5. Blazing Saddles
6. The Searchers
7. Rio Bravo
8. For a Few Dollars More
9. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
10. Hell or High Water

Do y’all consider There Will be Blood to be a Western? IMDB and Letterboxd don’t, but I still think of it as one; it’s in my top ten of all time, so would easily be my favorite Western.


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## RICK RIEKERT

I'm surprised no one has mentioned one of the all-time classic westerns, _The Gunfighter_, starring Gregory Peck as a middle-aged gunfighter trying to go clean. It's a sober, grown-up film with no horse chases or brawls or grand landscapes and, despite its title, hardly any gunplay. Particularly strong are the scenes between the Peck and the town marshal, played by the great Millard Mitchell. Both actors command their scenes. It's also the movie alluded to in Bob Dylan's song 'Brownsville Girl'.

Well, there was this movie I seen one time,
About a man riding 'cross the desert and it starred Gregory Peck.
He was shot down by a hungry kid trying to make a name for himself.
The townspeople wanted to crush that kid down and string him up by the neck.

Well, the marshal, now he beat that kid to a bloody pulp
as the dying gunfighter lay in the sun and gasped for his last breath.
Turn him loose, let him go, let him say he outdrew me fair and square,
I want him to feel what it's like to every moment face his death.


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## Tchaikov6

RICK RIEKERT said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned one of the all-time classic westerns, _The Gunfighter_, starring Gregory Peck as a middle-aged gunfighter trying to go clean. It's a sober, grown-up film with no horse chases or brawls or grand landscapes and, despite its title, hardly any gunplay. Particularly strong are the scenes between the Peck and the town marshal, played by the great Millard Mitchell. Both actors command their scenes. It's also the movie alluded to in Bob Dylan's song 'Brownsville Girl'.
> 
> Well, there was this movie I seen one time,
> About a man riding 'cross the desert and it starred Gregory Peck.
> He was shot down by a hungry kid trying to make a name for himself.
> The townspeople wanted to crush that kid down and string him up by the neck.
> 
> Well, the marshal, now he beat that kid to a bloody pulp
> as the dying gunfighter lay in the sun and gasped for his last breath.
> Turn him loose, let him go, let him say he outdrew me fair and square,
> I want him to feel what it's like to every moment face his death.


That's a really good one, would make my top 15!


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## Guest

Thanks for posting this; I'll watch "The Gunfighter". Did you enjoy Peck in "*Yellow Sky*"? That's actually a good film too, with Anne Baxter.


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## Phil loves classical

Tchaikov6 said:


> My current top 10:
> 
> 1. There Will be Blood
> 2. Unforgiven
> 3. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
> 4. McCabe and Mrs. Miller
> 5. Blazing Saddles
> 6. The Searchers
> 7. Rio Bravo
> 8. For a Few Dollars More
> 9. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
> 10. Hell or High Water
> 
> Do y'all consider There Will be Blood to be a Western? IMDB and Letterboxd don't, but I still think of it as one; it's in my top ten of all time, so would easily be my favorite Western.


I never really considered There Will be Blood to be a Western, nor No Country for Old Men. Hell or High Water was great. Probably the latest great one I've seen. I didn't know Chris Pine could act before that. I really liked the Gunfighter before, but it feels too corny for me now. I have to add Hell or High Water to my favourites list.


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## Guest

Out of that list Phil has put together I'd nominate "*Rio Bravo*" as the best western, by a large measure. Molly Haskell says so too in her scholarly writings on that film. The title theme doesn't start here until *0:55*. It is a tender and insouciant kind of theme and how it makes my heart sing seeing 'Howard Hawks' written on the screen!!






This is what Haskell observes about Howard Hawks:

"A mature acceptance of the dual principles of life in which woman is complementary to a man would undoubtedly have given Hawks a more complete and stimulating vision, a richer and more mystical view of the world; but perhaps it would have removed the sexual tension and the tension with nature which is at the heart of Hawks' work, and which activates the genius of an artist who has been at once the most knowing and naive, the most elegant and awkward, the most male and female, the most American of directors". ("*Cinema: A Critical Dictionary - the Major Film-makers*", ed. Roud, p.486)


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Phil loves classical said:


> I never really considered There Will be Blood to be a Western, nor No Country for Old Men. Hell or High Water was great. Probably the latest great one I've seen. I didn't know Chris Pine could act before that. I really liked the Gunfighter before, but it feels too corny for me now. I have to add Hell or High Water to my favourites list.


Hell or High Water was incredible. I watched it after a friend recommended it, hasn't heard anything about it. Great movie.

I really like True Grit, the John Wayne iteration, of course. I also really enjoyed Silverado among the more modern ones. Not my favorite genre, though.


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## Phil loves classical

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Hell or High Water was incredible. I watched it after a friend recommended it, hasn't heard anything about it. Great movie.
> 
> I really like True Grit, the John Wayne iteration, of course. I also really enjoyed Silverado among the more modern ones. Not my favorite genre, though.


I also liked the John Wayne True Grit. Didn't like the newer version. The scenery in the original was real nice. I realized after rewatching the movie I've been in that area in the Colorado Rockies before.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Phil loves classical said:


> I also liked the John Wayne True Grit. Didn't like the newer version. The scenery in the original was real nice. I realized after rewatching the movie I've been in that area in the Colorado Rockies before.


"Fill your hands you son-of-a-bitch" is still one of the all time great lines!


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## Phil loves classical

Do you old-time Western fans feel wokeness works against the Western genre? Remember the Sharon Stone Quick and the Dead, or Jamie Foxx's Django with the inauthentic sunglasses? Or is it unrelated?

I thought the Mattie Ross in the True Grit of the original funny and entertaining. But in the newer version, I just couldn't connect. Is it the acting or the character? Or me?


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Do you old-time Western fans feel wokeness works against the Western genre? Remember the Sharon Stone Quick and the Dead, or Jamie Foxx's Django with the inauthentic sunglasses? Or is it unrelated?
> 
> I thought the Mattie Ross in the True Grit of the original funny and entertaining. But in the newer version, I just couldn't connect. Is it the acting or the character? Or me?


I'm not struck on the 'modern' westerns, to be honest, since "Unforgiven" - so I don't watch them.

Mattie Ross..."you may well hear from my lawyer J. Noble Daggett" was extremely funny. That's why I thoroughly enjoyed "True Grit", because Wayne's films often had a lot of humour in them. That man who traded in horses was very funny too...very sarcastic humour..."I would not be surprised to find he is a relative of yours"!! Yes, she was a feisty female in the true sense of the word. Here is the scene and the quality is shocking!!


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## bz3

Phil loves classical said:


> Do you old-time Western fans feel wokeness works against the Western genre? Remember the Sharon Stone Quick and the Dead, or Jamie Foxx's Django with the inauthentic sunglasses? Or is it unrelated?
> 
> I thought the Mattie Ross in the True Grit of the original funny and entertaining. But in the newer version, I just couldn't connect. Is it the acting or the character? Or me?


Wokeness is a cancer that chews away at anything it touches, but yes I think it hurts westerns moreso because of the genre's rugged and masculine quality. I don't think a really great western has been made since Unforgiven. Open Range may come closest, and the Jesse James film with Brad Pitt was very fine but totally imperfect and too art-house for its own good. Hell or High Water was also a fairly good recent one, but more a high quality B-movie western a la Budd Boetticher than a top notch entry in the genre.


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## Phil loves classical

bz3 said:


> Wokeness is a cancer that chews away at anything it touches, but yes I think it hurts westerns moreso because of the genre's rugged and masculine quality. I don't think a really great western has been made since Unforgiven. Open Range may come closest, and the Jesse James film with Brad Pitt was very fine but totally imperfect and too art-house for its own good. Hell or High Water was also a fairly good recent one, but more a high quality B-movie western a la Budd Boetticher than a top notch entry in the genre.


Unforgiven does seem to be the last Classic Western of its kind. When it first came out, I thought it was already very 'modern' but compared to stuff afterwards, it retains this old-fashioned feel. You're right, Open Range also has that old-world feel. I hated the Jesse James with Casey Affleck, at least as a Western, but I can see it resonating with fans not having been brought up with John Wayne, Gary Cooper, etc.

Kurosawa's samurai flicks probably have more in common with the old Westerns than much of the newer stuff now. I'm rewatching Hell or High Water now (taking a break in the middle). It has a modern twist, but I feel it's a great update on the Western genre. Like the cinematography too.


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## Guest

At first I thought you meant the modern "Hell and High Water" but, of course, it was Sam Fuller's version from the early 50s. Gotta check that one out.

When my daughter first started film studies at university for her Communications degree just under 2 decades ago she had the same lecturer I'd had years before. I went to see him and we had a discussion about westerns, with me suggesting these were 'morality costume dramas'. He had a look on his face as though he'd never thought of that before!!!


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> At first I thought you meant the modern "Hell and High Water" but, of course, it was Sam Fuller's version from the early 50s. Gotta check that one out.
> 
> When my daughter first started film studies at university for her Communications degree just under 2 decades ago she had the same lecturer I'd had years before. I went to see him and we had a discussion about westerns, with me suggesting these were 'morality costume dramas'. He had a look on his face as though he'd never thought of that before!!!


Actually I did mean the Hell and High Water with Jeff Bridges and Chris Pine. Never watched the earlier version. I thought Bridges was a lot better in this movie than as Rooster Cogburn in True Grit.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Phil loves classical said:


> Unforgiven does seem to be the last Classic Western of its kind. When it first came out, I thought it was already very 'modern' but compared to stuff afterwards, it retains this old-fashioned feel. You're right, Open Range also has that old-world feel. I hated the Jesse James with Casey Affleck, at least as a Western, but I can see it resonating with fans not having been brought up with John Wayne, Gary Cooper, etc.
> 
> Kurosawa's samurai flicks probably have more in common with the old Westerns than much of the newer stuff now. I'm rewatching Hell or High Water now (taking a break in the middle). It has a modern twist, but I feel it's a great update on the Western genre. Like the cinematography too.


I discovered Kurosawa later in life - man, that guy could make films! Seven Samurai, Rashomon, Sanjuro, Yojimbo, all great films. And yeah, at their hearts, those Samurai films at heart are indistinguishable from Westerns. But then Kurosawa loved Ford. And it makes sense that so many of his Samurai films were so seamlessly remade into Westerns.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Actually I did mean the Hell and High Water with Jeff Bridges and Chris Pine. Never watched the earlier version. I thought Bridges was a lot better in this movie than as Rooster Cogburn in True Grit.


Oh, OK. I was confused because that isn't a western actually.


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## Tchaikov6

Christabel said:


> Oh, OK. I was confused because that isn't a western actually.


Yes it is, just a modern one.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Tchaikov6 said:


> Yes it is, just a modern one.


Agree. Instead of horses, it's the cars/SUV's. I see it kind of like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (I can imagine the older bro thinking "Who are those guys?" in the chase). I felt the movie had a lot of heart. It's my favourite modern Western.


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## Guest

Tchaikov6 said:


> Yes it is, just a modern one.


The film reminded me more of "No Country for Old Men" than any western; for me it was a modern morality tale about economic privation in a supposedly-wealthy nation. I don't want to start a political argument, but the first thing I thought of when I saw those abandoned towns was Trump and why he was elected. Also, "The Last Picture Show" (sans the crime) has the same kind of feel and it wasn't a western either. Not all westerns have crime: ergo, "The Big Country".

Genre would be a discrete topic to debate anyway.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Agree. Instead of horses, it's the cars/SUV's. I see it kind of like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (I can imagine the older bro thinking "Who are those guys?" in the chase). I felt the movie had a lot of heart. It's my favourite modern Western.


"Butch Cassidy" is an interesting film; I had a mixed response to it. For me the hippy fragrance (Katharine Ross) was rather annoying and has dated the film beyond its already-dated setting. But the sheer charisma of Newman and Redford made it eminently watchable. And funny. I tend to agree with some critics who've said Newman always overwhelmed Redford when he was on the screen.


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## Guest

Perhaps some here would regard "Hud" as a western because it's set in the west. But it's really an intense psychological drama and '4-hander' rather than a western per se. There were many of these from the 1950s, including those Tennessee Williams vehicles.

Martin Ritt; first class director of dramas!


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> The film reminded me more of "No Country for Old Men" than any western; for me it was a modern morality tale about economic privation in a supposedly-wealthy nation. I don't want to start a political argument, but the first thing I thought of when I saw those abandoned towns was Trump and why he was elected. Also, "The Last Picture Show" (sans the crime) has the same kind of feel and it wasn't a western either. Not all westerns have crime: ergo, "The Big Country".
> 
> Genre would be a discrete topic to debate anyway.


No Country for Old Men and Hell or High Water are labelled as "neo-Western" on Wikipedia. The lines do get a bit fuzzy. Ever watch Bad Day at Black Rock with Spencer Tracy? It was recommended on this "Western Films" book I have by Brian Garfield (who also wrote the novel "Death Wish" which turned into the Charles Bronson movie, which he hated). Bad Day at Black Rock is part Western part film noir (according to Wikipedia). I'm hesitant to call No Country for Old Men a Western, since it seems too much of a thriller (akin to the Terminator). Even Logan (the X-Men spinoff) is considered a Western, but that is too much of a stretch to me, even if it does quote Shane.


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## Guest

The whole question of genre is such an interesting area!! And a fraught one too. I've never regarded "*Bad Day at Black Rock*" as a western. In fact, I never much liked the film either - despite being a huge admirer of director John Sturges.


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## geralmar

Audrey Hepburn, Audie Murphy; The Unforgiven (1960)

Not a great western; but striking cinematography by Franz Planer.


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## Guest

geralmar said:


> Audrey Hepburn, Audie Murphy; The Unforgiven (1960)
> 
> Not a great western; but striking cinematography by Franz Planer.


Yes, but it is an interesting film. Directed by John Huston. (Franz Planer was to work again with Audrey Hepburn on "*Breakfast at Tiffany's*".) I'm not sure that Hepburn suited the role in "Unforgiven" but the implied theme of incest is a disturbing one, even though 'brother' and 'sister' were unrelated.

Also, have you noticed the soundtrack music? It doesn't work and sounds remote and orchestral as though recorded in a studio in one hit and just cut and pasted to the film. I found the music annoying right the way through; it spoiled the film in many respects.


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## geralmar

I read that Tiomkin's music was hastily recorded in Italy due to a musicians' strike (or something), not on a Hollywood soundstage, which accounts for the grating tinny sound. I once felt that Tiomkin's music for any movie sounded like sludge and actually avoided some movies because he was the credited composer. Then I heard Charles Gerhardt's 1973 RCA L.P. of Tiomkin's movie scores and realized the problem was Tiomkin's "thick" orchestrations which didn't translate well on a monophonic soundtrack. The Thing from Another World, in blazing stereo on L.P., had an impact that couldn't be appreciated in a movie auditorium-- or dinky television set-- of the time. 

Oddly enough I like the music in The Unforgiven while recognizing its intrusiveness. I particularly enjoy the brief horsebreaking scene with John Saxon. The cinematography, the editing-- and especially Tiomkin's scoring which "borrows" from Glinka's Jota Aragonesa; except I prefer Tiomkin's orchestration.


----------



## Guest

geralmar said:


> I read that Tiomkin's music was hastily recorded in Italy due to a musicians' strike (or something), not on a Hollywood soundstage, which accounts for the grating tinny sound. I once felt that Tiomkin's music for any movie sounded like sludge and actually avoided some movies because he was the credited composer. Then I heard Charles Gerhardt's 1973 RCA L.P. of Tiomkin's movie scores and realized the problem was Tiomkin's "thick" orchestrations which didn't translate well on a monophonic soundtrack. The Thing from Another World, in blazing stereo on L.P., had an impact that couldn't be appreciated in a movie auditorium-- or dinky television set-- of the time.
> 
> Oddly enough I like the music in The Unforgiven while recognizing its intrusiveness. I particularly enjoy the brief horsebreaking scene with John Saxon. The cinematography, the editing-- and especially Tiomkin's scoring which "borrows" from Glinka's Jota Aragonesa; except I prefer Tiomkin's orchestration.


I did read that some time ago about the recording of the score for 'Unforgiven', but I had long ago forgotten about it. I don't really agree that Tiomkins's scores were thick though, of course, many of them were. How about this one, which I think is inspired:






And this one: elegiac and touching!!






Tiomkins was Hawks's go-to composer. I'm sure I wrote about it earlier in this thread. Hawks sacked Tiomkin from 'Hatari' because Tiomkin said it wasn't possible to compose African music with original African instruments!!

This is very tender and evocative: here Tiomkin obviously thought less was more!!






And here I feel that Tiomkins's score is actually better than the film it was composed for:






This one harks back to "High Noon" and is an excellent score which really suits the film and provides narrative information (just as the former film score does): and I am a HUGE fan of director John Sturges!!


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## MAS

My two top choices are:
“Once Upon A Time In The West” 
“Tombstone”


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## Guest

I wouldn't necessarily call this a 'best western' but its star (Glenn Ford) was always a solid performer: "*The Fastest Gun Alive*" (a popular synecdoche!):






Broderick Crawford is his usually bullying, aggressive self. You can read any number of messages into the themes of masculinity depicted in this film.


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> I wouldn't necessarily call this a 'best western' but its star (Glenn Ford) was always a solid performer: "*The Fastest Gun Alive*" (a popular synecdoche!):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Broderick Crawford is his usually bullying, aggressive self. You can read any number of messages into the themes of masculinity depicted in this film.


Hey, that's a great performance by Ford. Ford I feel transcends the period. I liked the cutting too. I don't recall close-ups being done well like that without it feeling staged or fake. It's a shame the story is so corny.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Hey, that's a great performance by Ford. Ford I feel transcends the period. I liked the cutting too. I don't recall close-ups being done well like that without it feeling staged or fake. It's a shame the story is so corny.


Yes, it's a cliche narrative - but even then, as you said, the film can have good elements going for it. I loved Glenn Ford as Yancey Cravat in "*Cimarron*" in 1960 with the excellent Maria Schell. The film was quite flawed in many respects (where was Yancey for over a decade??), but I really enjoyed its 'epic' quality of the generational changes. Judging by this opening title sequence the film has obviously been majestically restored: directed by Anthony Mann!! From the novel by Edna Ferber:


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## Joe B

Phil loves classical said:


> Hey,* that's a great performance by Ford*. Ford I feel transcends the period. I liked the cutting too. I don't recall close-ups being done well like that without it feeling staged or fake. It's a shame the story is so corny.


Last year I watched the special features on the Criterion release of "3:10 to Yuma". One of the interviews was with Glenn Ford's son. Referring to his dad's ability to make great choices as an actor, he told a story of the scene in "Superman" where Glenn, as Clark Kent's dad, has a heart attack. Ford had told the director that he was all set for the scene and didn't need any rehearsals. The director and crew, not knowing exactly how he would play the scene, thought Glenn actually had a heart attack when they were filming. His performance was incredibly subtle, putting his hand to his chest and very quietly, and with surprise in his voice, says "Oh my", and falls to the ground dead. It was so underplayed, many on the set thought it was for real.


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## Guest

Joe B said:


> Last year I watched the special features on the Criterion release of "3:10 to Yuma". One of the interviews was with Glenn Ford's son. Referring to his dad's ability to make great choices as an actor, he told a story of the scene in "Superman" where Glenn, as Clark Kent's dad, has a heart attack. Ford had told the director that he was all set for the scene and didn't need any rehearsals. The director and crew, not knowing exactly how he would play the scene, thought Glenn actually had a heart attack when they were filming. His performance was incredibly subtle, putting his hand to his chest and very quietly, and with surprise in his voice, says "Oh my", and falls to the ground dead. It was so underplayed, many on the set thought it was for real.


"*3:10 to Yuma*" (Delmer Daves) is actually quite a good film. The fashion of Frankie Lane (or others) singing the main idea behind the narrative over the opening credits is still alive and well at least until the 1960's "Cimarron".






I've made a mistake; singing introduced westerns OF COURSE at least until 1966 and Hawks's "*El Dorado":*






(Did I happen to mention that I'm a devoted Hawksian!!?) Here's an anecdote about the death of Howard Hawks:

Hawks died on December 26, 1977, at the age of 81, from complications arising from a fall *when he tripped over his dog at his home in Palm Springs*, California. He had spent two weeks in the hospital recovering from his concussion when he asked to be taken home, dying a few days later. (He is far from the first person I've heard of who died or became seriously injured by tripping over a housebound dog.)


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## Phil loves classical

Joe B said:


> Last year I watched the special features on the Criterion release of "3:10 to Yuma". One of the interviews was with Glenn Ford's son. Referring to his dad's ability to make great choices as an actor, he told a story of the scene in "Superman" where Glenn, as Clark Kent's dad, has a heart attack. Ford had told the director that he was all set for the scene and didn't need any rehearsals. The director and crew, not knowing exactly how he would play the scene, thought Glenn actually had a heart attack when they were filming. His performance was incredibly subtle, putting his hand to his chest and very quietly, and with surprise in his voice, says "Oh my", and falls to the ground dead. It was so underplayed, many on the set thought it was for real.


Yup, 3:10 to Yuma was great. I also liked the one with Christian Bale too, although they both get kind of implausible near the end. That's a funny behind the scenes story with Superman. It was the first movie with Ford I saw, and he played the ideal sort of father (or foster father).


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## Aliputera

Django Unchained for sure


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## SanAntone

Agree on _Unforgiven_, and _True Grit_, although I liked the remake with Jeff Bridges more than most of you. I like all of Eastwood's _Pale Rider_, and the rest.

Have any of you seen _The Tin Star_? Great, IMO, somewhat lesser known western from the late '50s starring *Henry Fonda* and *Tony Perkins*.

Love the genre and have a book around here somewhere of the "best" for each decade, i.e. up to when the book as published.

Does _Lonesome Dove_ count? I love it.


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## Guest

This is the best western ever made, IMO (and also in the opinion of very many critics). Howard Hawks's "*Rio Bravo*" (made 1958, released 1959). The score by Tiomkin is inspired; insouciant, dreamy and hauntingly evoking the evanescent period of the old west.






This was the third last film from Hawks: two more westerns followed, "*El Dorado*" and "*Rio Lobo*". He only made 4 westerns in his career, starting with "Red River" of course (all 4 with John Wayne). The last 3 westerns had the same themes; a bunch of men defend a town from desperadoes and have to protect a prisoner in jail who will face the court.

Hawks was interested in the relationships between men and the interruption of that by the "Hawksian woman". When Screenwriter Leigh Brackett complained to Hawks that she was writing the same story with each film he shrugged, "_well, if they don't like it give 'em their dime back_"!! The ensemble interaction of "Rio Bravo" is very reminiscent of the relationships in "His Girl Friday" from 1939.

Howard Winchester Hawks, 1896-1977.


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## flamencosketches

Just watched True Grit (2010) for the first time last night. I really enjoyed it. Loved the main character, loved Jeff Bridges. Beyond the quirky dialog, it didn't really feel like a "true" Coen Brothers movie but more of a traditional revisionist Western. But nevertheless it was great. Not sure how I managed to go all these years without watching it; I'm a big fan of the Coens. 

Is the original worth a watch? I'm not all that much of a Westerns guy, but I do want to watch more of them (if I can talk my girlfriend into it).


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## SanAntone

flamencosketches said:


> Just watched True Grit (2010) for the first time last night. I really enjoyed it. Loved the main character, loved Jeff Bridges. Beyond the quirky dialog, it didn't really feel like a "true" Coen Brothers movie but more of a traditional revisionist Western. But nevertheless it was great. Not sure how I managed to go all these years without watching it; I'm a big fan of the Coens.
> 
> Is the original worth a watch? I'm not all that much of a Westerns guy, but I do want to watch more of them (if I can talk my girlfriend into it).


I remember when the original came out and Glen Campbell joked, "I'd never acted in a movie before, and every time I see True Grit I think my record's still clean!"


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## Guest

Many critics think "The Searchers" is the best western ever made, but I disagree. There are sequences in it which are excellent, but the 'wrong' location put me off right away. I love Ford's active mise-en-scene, where every inch is utilized - example, around the dinner table - but there are too many buffoon characters in his films for me to really love them. Ken Curtis plays a buffoon in "The Searchers" and effectively ruins the film. Also, the scenes with the Indian "Look" undercut the seriousness of its intent. Ford often became confused with his dramas in this way.


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## Guest

I've seen two westerns in the last days which I would rate as highly as "*Rio Bravo*". The first is "*Man of the West*" (Directed by Anthony Mann) and starring Gary Cooper. And the other western also starred Gary Cooper, "*High Noon*" (Directed Fred Zinnemann).


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

I've seen a ton of westerns over the last couple of years and here are my favorites in no particular order:

1. For a Few Dollars More (1965): While The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a monumental film, my favorite film from the Dollars Trilogy is this film. Lee van Cleef and Clint Eastwood work together to take down a dangerous robber. It has some tense scenes and some nice action. I like Fistful of Dollars and Good, Bad, and Ugly, but this film has been my most watchable of the three for me.

2. Red River (1948): This is my favorite black and white John Wayne film. There is an interesting conflict between John Wayne's character and his costar, Montgomery Clift. Also a lot of fun if you wanna watch a cattle drive on the screen.

3.Unforgiven (1992): The ending of this film is probably one of the best I have ever seen. It is a very dark film compared to the previous two and it presents the West in a much different light. Highly recommended.

4. The Treasure of Sierra Madre (1948): Different kind of film for its time when compared to the John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart movies coming out at the time. Seen this movie once, which feature Humphrey Bogart, Walter Huston, and Tim Holt as three men looking to strike it rich in Mexico. There are a lot of twists and turns and is a good choice for a film if you are not looking for cowboys and Native Americans.

5. The Searchers (1956): I knew that a lot of people would list this one, so I was trying to think of other John Ford movies with John Wayne that I like more. Eventually, I concluded that this movie still takes the cake for me. Incredible cinematography, a good soundtrack, and a more complex role for the Duke. There are parts of this movie that still gives me chills every time I watch it. 

Those are my top five in no particular order, but I did want to list a couple of Westerns that I recommend:

1. Rio Bravo
2. Calvary Trilogy (Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande)
3. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
4. True Grit (both the original or the remake are both pretty good imo)
5. The Wild Bunch
6. The Great Train Robbery (silent film)
7. Winchester 73
8. The Naked Spur
9. Shane

Some films I still need to watch include Once Upon a Time in the West and Tombstone (really want to watch Tombstone sometime soon).


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## Dulova Harps On

Shane
No Name On The Bullet
Ride Lonesome
Canyon Passage
Comanche Station


----------



## Guest

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> I've seen a ton of westerns over the last couple of years and here are my favorites in no particular order:
> 
> 1. For a Few Dollars More (1965): While The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a monumental film, my favorite film from the Dollars Trilogy is this film. Lee van Cleef and Clint Eastwood work together to take down a dangerous robber. It has some tense scenes and some nice action. I like Fistful of Dollars and Good, Bad, and Ugly, but this film has been my most watchable of the three for me.
> 
> 2. Red River (1948): This is my favorite black and white John Wayne film. There is an interesting conflict between John Wayne's character and his costar, Montgomery Clift. Also a lot of fun if you wanna watch a cattle drive on the screen.
> 
> 3.Unforgiven (1992): The ending of this film is probably one of the best I have ever seen. It is a very dark film compared to the previous two and it presents the West in a much different light. Highly recommended.
> 
> 4. The Treasure of Sierra Madre (1948): Different kind of film for its time when compared to the John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart movies coming out at the time. Seen this movie once, which feature Humphrey Bogart, Walter Huston, and Tim Holt as three men looking to strike it rich in Mexico. There are a lot of twists and turns and is a good choice for a film if you are not looking for cowboys and Native Americans.
> 
> 5. The Searchers (1956): I knew that a lot of people would list this one, so I was trying to think of other John Ford movies with John Wayne that I like more. Eventually, I concluded that this movie still takes the cake for me. Incredible cinematography, a good soundtrack, and a more complex role for the Duke. There are parts of this movie that still gives me chills every time I watch it.
> 
> Those are my top five in no particular order, but I did want to list a couple of Westerns that I recommend:
> 
> 1. Rio Bravo
> 2. Calvary Trilogy (Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande)
> 3. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
> 4. True Grit (both the original or the remake are both pretty good imo)
> 5. The Wild Bunch
> 6. The Great Train Robbery (silent film)
> 7. Winchester 73
> 8. The Naked Spur
> 9. Shane
> 
> Some films I still need to watch include Once Upon a Time in the West and Tombstone (really want to watch Tombstone sometime soon).


I agree with your list, except for numbers 5 and 6. Those Anthony Mann westerns were something else; he saw a darkness within James Stewart and was able to exploit that to bring to the screen some excellent depictions of what violence does to the individual. "True Grit" (1969) was a lot of fun, but I loved "*Shane*" (director George Stevens a hero of mine). That little boy calling out after Shane right at the end. Very touching. The Cavalry Trilogy: this one is my favourite, "*Rio Grande*". Wayne acknowledged composer Victor Young when he received his Oscar for "True Grit". (This music is just so reminiscent of Herbert Stothart!!)






I read one of the most excellently written and researched biographies ever; _John Ford_ by Joseph McBride. He claims John Ford insisted Archie Stout be included as a 2nd Unit cinematographer on "*Rio Grande*", despite the fact he'd gone past it professionally. Ford was loyal to his buddies and, as Stout had lost a son (his only child) six years earlier in WW2, the director absolutely insisted he got a job working on this picture. A lot in that cast were personal friends of both John Ford and John Wayne.

Another little-known fact is the incredible history of Co-Producer Merian C. Cooper: what a man!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merian_C._Cooper


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## Guest

Another very good western, with a screenplay by Leon Uris ("Exodus"), "*Gunfight at the OK Corral*". Direction John Sturges.






I think I've already mentioned this film before!!


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## Mifek

*Lemonade Joe* - it seems that nobody mentioned yet that _cult classic_ western from 1964.










Available at youtube with English subtitles:


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## Guest

Mifek said:


> *Lemonade Joe* - it seems that nobody mentioned yet that _cult classic_ western from 1964.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Available at youtube with English subtitles:


Never heard of it!! Thanks for the heads up.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

Christabel said:


> I agree with your list, except for numbers 5 and 6. Those Anthony Mann westerns were something else; he saw a darkness within James Stewart and was able to exploit that to bring to the screen some excellent depictions of what violence does to the individual. "True Grit" (1969) was a lot of fun, but I loved "*Shane*" (director George Stevens a hero of mine). That little boy calling out after Shane right at the end. Very touching. The Cavalry Trilogy: this one is my favourite, "*Rio Grande*". Wayne acknowledged composer Victor Young when he received his Oscar for "True Grit". (This music is just so reminiscent of Herbert Stothart!!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read one of the most excellently written and researched biographies ever; _John Ford_ by Joseph McBride. He claims John Ford insisted Archie Stout be included as a 2nd Unit cinematographer on "*Rio Grande*", despite the fact he'd gone past it professionally. Ford was loyal to his buddies and, as Stout had lost a son (his only child) six years earlier in WW2, the director absolutely insisted he got a job working on this picture. A lot in that cast were personal friends of both John Ford and John Wayne.
> 
> Another little-known fact is the incredible history of Co-Producer Merian C. Cooper: what a man!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merian_C._Cooper


I definitely agree in regards to the Jimmy Stewart westerns directed by Anthony Mann. Don't get as much love as the John Wayne classics or the spaghetti westerns, but I find them to be very entertaining. I am not too familiar with all of the aspect of John Ford's life with the exception of his career during WWII (thanks to that documentary that came out a few years ago). I do not know much about Cooper either besides his involvement with King Kong. Might have to do some reading!


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## SanAntone

Just watched *Hondo* - pretty great.


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## Guest

SanAntone said:


> Just watched *Hondo* - pretty great.


Well, I liked that film too. But I preferred the later "The Comancheros". I have a story to relate: many decades ago our family went on a beach holiday. I was very young and that film was playing at the place of our holiday. The family wanted to spend the day further up the coast, about an hour's drive away, but I refused to go saying I wanted to remain behind to see "The Comancheros" at the cinema. I sat through 2 sessions!! And I was still in primary school. In your wildest imagination can you see any parent leaving a youngster like that alone to go to the movies today!!?? But I was a crank about films even then!! And there I first learned about Michael Curtiz. Seriously; I cleared rooms even back them yammering on about film.

It was also beginning of a love affair with composer Elmer Bernstein:


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## cheregi

I haven't watched tons of Westerns but recently went through a pretty intense phase - I have to say I think Once Upon a Time in the West is miles and miles better than The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly - the former has a genuinely mythic/epic feeling to it, and is just visually gorgeous, while the latter just seems to drag on forever with not much interesting to hold on to, and Clint Eastwood specifically just struck me as kind of bumbling and foolish rather than the kickass antihero he's made out to be (which might have been the point?).


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## Terrapin

1. The Wild Bunch (Peckinpah, 1969)
2. My Darling Clementine (Ford, 1946)
3. The Searchers (Ford, 1956)
4. McCabe and Mrs. Miller (Altman, 1971)
5. Rio Bravo (Hawks, 1959)
6. Once Upon a Time in the West (Leone, 1968)
7. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (Ford, 1962) 
8. High Noon (Zinnemann, 1952)
9. Red River (Hawks, 1948)
10. Stagecoach (Ford, 1939)

The period 1939 to 1971 was the golden age of Westerns. Nothing outside that period would make my list of top 40 Westerns, except perhaps Unforgiven.


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## MAS

I love *Tombstone* with that amazing Doc Holiday from Val Kilmer. *Once Upon A Time In The West* kills me, the music (Ennio Morricone) makes me cry. *Dances With Wolves* - the score gets me every time, I love John Barry. I also liked *3:10 to Yuma*, in both the Glenn Ford version and the Christian Bale more modern version.


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## Guest

Terrapin said:


> 1. The Wild Bunch (Peckinpah, 1969)
> 2. My Darling Clementine (Ford, 1946)
> 3. The Searchers (Ford, 1956)
> 4. McCabe and Mrs. Miller (Altman, 1971)
> 5. Rio Bravo (Hawks, 1959)
> 6. Once Upon a Time in the West (Leone, 1968)
> 7. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (Ford, 1962)
> 8. High Noon (Zinnemann, 1952)
> 9. Red River (Hawks, 1948)
> 10. Stagecoach (Ford, 1939)
> 
> The period 1939 to 1971 was the golden age of Westerns. Nothing outside that period would make my list of top 40 Westerns, except perhaps Unforgiven.


I'm impressed by your list, except you left out the Anthony Mann films - which are excellent. I don't like your number 1 choice, or 4 or 6 - otherwise those films are right up there for me. What about "The Big Country'? And I thought "Unforgiven" was not saying anything Anthony Mann had already said many decades earlier; sorry Clint!!

I forgot Ford's 'cavalry trilogy' of which this one is the best, in my view:






OK, Victor Young is, in certain sections, influenced by Herbert Stothart and his sound world with that score: listen to this (without the choral section, of course). You can hear what Young has done. The orchestrations are incredibly similar.






Those first descending chords after the fanfare in "Rio Grande" are pure opening sequence music for Stothart's "Queen Christina" (1933)!! At the section where the writing occurs on the screen as the background to the film and later for that astonishing close-up of Garbo on the prow of the ship (with the wind going in the wrong direction!): it's one of the defining images in the history of the cinema - or even the still camera - IMO.


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> I'm impressed by your list, except you left out the Anthony Mann films - which are excellent. I don't like your number 1 choice, or 4 or 6 - otherwise those films are right up there for me. What about "The Big Country'? And I thought "Unforgiven" was not saying anything Anthony Mann had already said many decades earlier; sorry Clint!!
> 
> I forgot Ford's 'cavalry trilogy' of which this one is the best, in my view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Victor Young is, in certain sections, influenced by Herbert Stothart and his sound world with that score: listen to this (without the choral section, of course). You can hear what Young has done. The orchestrations are incredibly similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those first descending chords after the fanfare in "Rio Grande" are pure opening sequence music for Stothart's "Queen Christina" (1933)!! At the section where the writing occurs on the screen as the background to the film and later for that astonishing close-up of Garbo on the prow of the ship (with the wind going in the wrong direction!): it's one of the defining images in the history of the cinema - or even the still camera - IMO.


Rio Grande is my least favourite of the trilogy. Can't decide between Fort Apache or She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (latter is mainly for the nice colour cinematography). Ever see the Rio Grande for real? Saw it at Big Bend, like paradise.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Rio Grande is my least favourite of the trilogy. Can't decide between Fort Apache or She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (latter is mainly for the nice colour cinematography). Ever see the Rio Grande for real? Saw it at Big Bend, like paradise.


I've heard people express the same opinion, but there are some iconic, Fordian moments in "Rio Grande" which make it the choice for me out of all three cavalry films; the scene where Kirby is on the stretcher behind the horse after being wounded in the battle. Kathleen is waiting there and their son is marching behind Kirby and she grabs his hand and the procession moves away from the camera. Ford was a master of the powerful image and this is one of them, conveying so much.


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## Phil loves classical

How about Lonesome Dove? It's not really a feature film but a mini-series, but is sometimes ranked as one of the best Westerns. I thought the part where Tommy Lee keeps his promise and brings Duvall's body the far distance to get it buried was something pretty unique in cinema.


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## SanAntone

Phil loves classical said:


> How about Lonesome Dove? It's not really a feature film but a mini-series, but is sometimes ranked as one of the best Westerns. I thought the part where Tommy Lee keeps his promise and brings Duvall's body the far distance to get it buried was something pretty unique in cinema.


I was gonna to suggest this, but forgot.


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## Itullian

I love Westerns and watch GRIT all the time.

My top 5 (excluding Leone's which are in a class by themselves.)
The Wild Bunch
The Magnificent 7
Shane
The Shootist
The Man that shot Liberty Valance.


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## Terrapin

Christabel said:


> I'm impressed by your list, except you left out the Anthony Mann films - which are excellent. I don't like your number 1 choice, or 4 or 6 - otherwise those films are right up there for me. What about "The Big Country'? And I thought "Unforgiven" was not saying anything Anthony Mann had already said many decades earlier; sorry Clint!!
> 
> I forgot Ford's 'cavalry trilogy' of which this one is the best, in my view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Victor Young is, in certain sections, influenced by Herbert Stothart and his sound world with that score: listen to this (without the choral section, of course). You can hear what Young has done. The orchestrations are incredibly similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those first descending chords after the fanfare in "Rio Grande" are pure opening sequence music for Stothart's "Queen Christina" (1933)!! At the section where the writing occurs on the screen as the background to the film and later for that astonishing close-up of Garbo on the prow of the ship (with the wind going in the wrong direction!): it's one of the defining images in the history of the cinema - or even the still camera - IMO.


I think the Anthony Mann/Jimmy Stewart westerns are OK but they rarely rise above mediocrity. I actually prefer the contemporaneous Budd Boetticher/Randolph Scott collaborations. As for Mann westerns without Stewart, "The Tin Star" was OK but "Man of the West" was disappointing. I like "The Big Country" but it wouldn't even make my William Wyler Top 10. Of the Cavalry Trilogy, "Fort Apache" is my favorite. "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" looks great but runs out of steam.


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## Guest

Terrapin said:


> I think the Anthony Mann/Jimmy Stewart westerns are OK but they rarely rise above mediocrity. I actually prefer the contemporaneous Budd Boetticher/Randolph Scott collaborations. As for Mann westerns without Stewart, "The Tin Star" was OK but "Man of the West" was disappointing. I like "The Big Country" but it wouldn't even make my William Wyler Top 10. Of the Cavalry Trilogy, "Fort Apache" is my favorite. "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" looks great but runs out of steam.


Many people regarded "Man of the West" as one of Mann's best and certainly a great performance from Gary Cooper. The film is essentially a chamber piece between a small group of players, with interesting and psychological tensions at play.

I don't agree about those westerns being mediocre and think Randolph Scott was THE most mediocre of all actors; wooden and po-faced.


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## Jacck

western is not my favorite genre, so I will not bother to name 10. I will just name some western movies, that I found memorable and exceptional

The Unforgiven
Dances with Wolves
The Last of the Mohicans
The Trap (1966)
The Magnificent Seven
The Treasure of Sierra Madre
The Great Silence
My Name is Nobody
The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Cipolla Colt
The Treasure of the Silver Lake

some of those (such as the last movie on the list) have just sentimental value to me, since I saw them as a child and was blown away by the beautiful scenery of the Croatian Plitvice Lakes (where the movie was shot). The same goes for the Cipolla Colt, which is a just a crazy comedy


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## Terrapin

Christabel said:


> Many people regarded "Man of the West" as one of Mann's best and certainly a great performance from Gary Cooper. The film is essentially a chamber piece between a small group of players, with interesting and psychological tensions at play.
> 
> I don't agree about those westerns being mediocre and think Randolph Scott was THE most mediocre of all actors; wooden and po-faced.


I agree that Scott was a limited actor, whereas Jimmy Stewart is one my favorites. However, I think the Boetticher films, although low-budget, have better scripts and he is as good a director as Mann. As for Mann, in addition to "The Naked Spur" (the only one of his collaborations with Stewart that rises above mediocrity), I think his best films are "Side Street" (a 1949 film noir that I found more interesting than the more famous "They Live by Night" from a year earlier, both with Farley Granger) and "God's Little Acre" (1958). I'm a big fan of Cooper but "Man of the West" can't compare to "The Westerner" or "High Noon" and it has that ridiculous fight scene where Cooper removes his opponent's pants if I remember correctly.


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## Phil loves classical

Terrapin said:


> I agree that Scott was a limited actor, whereas Jimmy Stewart is one my favorites. However, I think the Boetticher films, although low-budget, have better scripts and he is as good a director as Mann. As for Mann, in addition to "The Naked Spur" (the only one of his collaborations with Stewart that rises above mediocrity), I think his best films are "Side Street" (a 1949 film noir that I found more interesting than the more famous "They Live by Night" from a year earlier, both with Farley Granger) and "God's Little Acre" (1958). I'm a big fan of Cooper but "Man of the West" can't compare to "The Westerner" or "High Noon" and it has that ridiculous fight scene where Cooper removes his opponent's pants if I remember correctly.


I thought Man of the West was quite good, except for the fight scene, which kind of ruined it for me. It was in the execution that I felt let down. I saw more realistic fights in more early movies. I'm a fan of Scott. Comanche Station is a highlight. Feels less dated than some of Mann's films, especially Bend of the River. I'm not bothered by Scott's acting, because i'm not all that convinced by the acting in those days in the first place, including Coop's.


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## Guest

Terrapin said:


> I agree that Scott was a limited actor, whereas Jimmy Stewart is one my favorites. However, I think the Boetticher films, although low-budget, have better scripts and he is as good a director as Mann. As for Mann, in addition to "The Naked Spur" (the only one of his collaborations with Stewart that rises above mediocrity), I think his best films are "Side Street" (a 1949 film noir that I found more interesting than the more famous "They Live by Night" from a year earlier, both with Farley Granger) and "God's Little Acre" (1958). I'm a big fan of Cooper but "Man of the West" can't compare to "The Westerner" or "High Noon" and it has that ridiculous fight scene where Cooper removes his opponent's pants if I remember correctly.


Anthony Mann was a very good 'noir' director as well as of epic films of the early-mid 1960s. He died too young. I loved "Side Street". In fact, I really very much enjoy the film noir genre altogether.

The reason for the removal of the pants in the 'ridiculous fight scene' (your words) is that earlier in the film those men wanted to remove the clothing of Julie London and it was an act of revenge/humiliation.


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