# Masters of Counterpoint



## Sol Invictus (Sep 17, 2016)

Besides Bach, who are considered masterful in counterpoint and which compositions best exemplify this?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Some that come to mind with some works as examples (not suggesting these works are the only examples):

Mendelssohn - String Symphonies 
Mozart - Symphony 41
Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
Carter - String Quartets
Bruckner - Symphony no. 9
Schoenberg - String Quartets
Nancarrow - Studies for Player Piano
Brahms - Symphony No. 4

There are plenty of others. I'm listing composers who seemed good at 'Bach-like' counterpoint.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2016)

Sol Invictus said:


> Besides Bach, who are considered masterful in counterpoint and which compositions best exemplify this?


this might be helpful.
https://www.britannica.com/art/counterpoint-music


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Jan Dismas Zelenka was a master in Bach's class, or close to it.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Jan Dismas Zelenka was a master in Bach's class, or close to it.


I see what you mean.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

I was about to type Zelenka too. 
And Johann Adolf Hasse is one I have liked. 
http://tarakari.blogspot.in/2015/07/a-melody-in-storm.html


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Sol Invictus said:


> Besides Bach, who are considered masterful in counterpoint and which compositions best exemplify this?


Thinking first of counterpoint which doesn't work through imitation, try

Chopin, late mazurkas
Christian Wolff (8th prelude)
Stockhausen (Himmelfahrt)
Boulez (sonata 2)
Shapey (Concertante 1, Evocations)


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

To me the obvious answer to the question is to list some of the best known Renaissance composers, Ockeghem, Obrecht, Gombert, Josquin, et al. Or some of the very well known 17th century masters, such as Frescobaldi and Froberger. 

As for the interesting answers, some have already been given, and to those I'd like to add Anton Reicha and his "36 Fugues".


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Thinking first of counterpoint which doesn't work through imitation, try
> Christian Wolff (8th prelude)


I suppose you can think of the Boulez sonata as of a contrapuntal piece (I can't), but the 8th prelude? Could you elaborate a little bit on why you think it's an interesting example of counterpoint? For the most part it's just two lines, one of which is very simple most of the time. Almost like a bass solo with basic accompaniment (which given Wolff's background seems like a logical way of seeing it).

I'm in complete agreement over Himmelfahrt, though. And Stockhausen has a lot of beautiful, intricate contrapuntal pieces.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

tdc said:


> Bruckner - Symphony no. 9


I would add his 5th symphony also.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> I suppose you can think of the Boulez sonata as of a contrapuntal piece (I can't), but the 8th prelude? Could you elaborate a little bit on why you think it's an interesting example of counterpoint? For the most part it's just two lines, one of which is very simple most of the time. Almost like a bass solo with basic accompaniment (which given Wolff's background seems like a logical way of seeing it).


If you listen to Sally Pinkas she makes it sound very different from melody/accompaniment, much more like two independently characterful voices interacting in a dramatic way. I remember thinking that Rzewski's recording was not like this, so something strange is going on in one of the two recordings.

After making that post I listened to one of Shapey's Evocations, it's very good music I think.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mahler
Webern
Stravinsky
Sorabji
Messiaen
Xenakis
Stockhausen
Murail


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> If you listen to Sally Pinkas she makes it sound very different from melody/accompaniment, much more like two independently characterful voices interacting in a dramatic way.


That's the recording I have, but I'm not getting that impression at all from it...


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

ST4 said:


> Murail


_Murail_??? I'd guess only if counterpoint is defined by "more than one line of music"! Sorry - don't mean to offend. Could you point to a specific piece of Murail's where there are several melodic lines interacting simultaneously?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ST4 said:


> Mahler
> Webern
> Stravinsky
> Sorabji
> ...


Do you know what counterpoint is?

I'm pretty sure Xenakis would actually have been offended if he heard you call him a "master of counterpoint."


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> Do you know what counterpoint is?
> 
> I'm pretty sure Xenakis would actually have been offended if he heard you call him a "master of counterpoint."


Yes I do know what counterpoint is and his music is vibrant in counterpoint and contrasts between timbres. 
I've been studying his music regularly for years. One of the signature features of his music is shifting groups of rhythmically independent lines that move in and out of unison/sequence. One of the things that may be swaying you off (if you have any knowledge of his music at all) is the groups of dense clusters moving against each-other in harmony.

Counterpoint isn't a melodic thing you listen to in elevators you know


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ST4 said:


> Yes I do know what counterpoint is and his music is vibrant in counterpoint and contrasts between timbres.
> I've been studying his music regularly for years. One of the signature features of his music is shifting groups of rhythmically independent lines that move in and out of unison/sequence. One of the things that may be swaying you off (if you have any knowledge of his music at all) is the groups of dense clusters moving against each-other in harmony.
> 
> Counterpoint isn't a melodic thing you listen to in elevators you know


I know a bunch of his music pretty well. I think he was one of the greatest of the 20th century. But he was totally uninterested in counterpoint, which is, by definition, a melodic thing.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Sol Invictus said:


> Besides Bach, who are considered *masterful in counterpoint* and which compositions best exemplify this?





Mandryka said:


> Thinking first of counterpoint which doesn't work through imitation, try
> 
> Christian Wolff (8th prelude)
> Stockhausen (Himmelfahrt)
> ...


I find the operative word in the OP to be "Masterful." Just because one does counterpoint, does not mean one is masterful in it, especially when the end result is cacophony. Just my opinion of course.

V


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I think I know what counterpoint is, and I think I can hear it being used to excellent effect in Shostakovich's 24 Preludes & Fugues.

Speaking of counterpoint, when I first worked at York University, Wilfred Mellers was Prof of Music, an amiable polymath. He once told me "I insist on teaching the students counterpoint. They don't like it, but it is good for them".


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I think I know what counterpoint is, and I think I can hear it being used to excellent effect in Shostakovich's 24 Preludes & Fugues.


To me those 24 fugues sound a bit old fashioned. For an example of 20th century music which uses imitative counterpoint in a structure like a fugue, you may enjoy Ferneyhough's Doctrine of Similarity more than the DSCH - I do.


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## LesCyclopes (Sep 16, 2016)

Oh, if only all these composers were masters of counterpoint. 

That would make it so much easier to find music to enjoy, for those of us who love counterpoint. 

For Bach-style counterpoint, I turn to Bach's contemporaries:

Buxtehude
Handel
Rameau


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## LesCyclopes (Sep 16, 2016)

> his [Xenakis] music is vibrant in counterpoint and contrasts between timbres.


Xenakis is as far from Bach as it is humanly possible to get, imho.

To each their own, and it's great that you find order and pleasure in Xenakis's "music" but it really is pushing the limits of the word "counterpoint" to say that Xenakis is a master of counterpoint.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I think I know what counterpoint is, and I think I can hear it being used to excellent effect in Shostakovich's 24 Preludes & Fugues.
> 
> Speaking of counterpoint, when I first worked at York University, Wilfred Mellers was Prof of Music, an amiable polymath. He once told me "I insist on teaching the students counterpoint. They don't like it, but it is good for them".


It isn't just the preludes and fugues. Shostakovich is a predominantly contrapuntal composer in most genres. The whole of his Fifth Quartet, for example, is a masterful study in counterpoint, along with a number of others. He just didn't seem to think harmonically in any central sense.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

LesCyclopes said:


> Oh, if only all these composers were masters of counterpoint.
> 
> For Bach-style counterpoint, I turn to ...Rameau


What do you have in mind there?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

LesCyclopes said:


> Xenakis is as far from Bach as it is humanly possible to get, imho.
> 
> To each their own, and it's great that you find order and pleasure in Xenakis's "music" but it really is pushing the limits of the word "counterpoint" to say that Xenakis is a master of counterpoint.


It's not pushing the limits of anything - it's just a complete misunderstanding of what Xenakis was doing.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> It's not pushing the limits of anything - it's just a complete misunderstanding of what Xenakis was doing.


I once read that Xenakis asked Messiaen for lessons in counterpoint but he refused, saying that Xenakis didn't need it.

Does anyone think that Reich is a master of counterpoint? (It's not my cup of tea, this sort of music.)


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Glazunov (eg. Symphony no. VII, 2nd movement or no. VIII, mesto movement).
Taneyev (eq. Symphony no IV, first movement, or his chamber music).


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I once read that Xenakis asked Messiaen for lessons in counterpoint but he refused, saying that Xenakis didn't need it.
> 
> Does anyone think that Reich is a master of counterpoint? (It's not my cup of tea, this sort of music.)


The story I've heard, recounted in the Guardian recently:

When Xenakis approached Olivier Messiaen in Paris for composition lessons, Messiaen turned him down, because, "I think one should study harmony and counterpoint. But this was a man so much out of the ordinary that I said… 'No, you are almost 30, you have the good fortune of being Greek, of being an architect and having studied special mathematics. Take advantage of these things. Do them in your music'."

I'm a big admirer of Reich's music and think he could well have a place on this list.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

no one has said Beethoven?

I always thought he was a master of counterpoint. Maybe so obvious that nobody thought to mention him?

now clearly I recognize that Bach's music is different in style, but still....I saw all sorts of examples of Beethoven's work trotted out when I studied counterpoint


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Gombert (probably the greatest master of counterpoint to have lived, except for maybe Bach):






Ockeghem (often thought of as the ultimate in counterpoint due to his two technical masses, Prolationum and Mass in Any Mode):






Dufay (stunning at his best, famed for his melodic skill even in contrapuntal passages):






Josquin (he and Palestrina are the most famous Renaissance composers):


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: The names J.S. Bach, J. Haydn and W.A Mozart come immediately to mind.


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## LesCyclopes (Sep 16, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> What do you have in mind there?


Mandryka - Assuming you meant to ask about Rameau's mastery of counterpoint, here are a few examples:

La Timide
La Livri
Laboravi Clamans
Les Tendres Plaintes

He literally wrote the book on harmony in music, you know.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

LesCyclopes said:


> Mandryka - Assuming you meant to ask about Rameau's mastery of counterpoint, here are a few examples:
> 
> La Timide
> La Livri
> ...


A book on harmony, yes. But I hear Rameau as a composer in the galant style: the music seems rarely to lead to unexpected harmonies through the counterpoint. On the contrary, the counterpoint is simplified to ensure limited dissonance.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Default mode for this subject is to think about the imitative counterpoint heard in the fugues of Bach or motets of Josquin. This kind of writing is like constructing art where the negative "spaces" of subjects accommodate other statements and countersubjects like intricately shaped tiles fitting together to form a homogeneous whole. But other "species" (pun intended) of counterpoint were cultivated by more modern composers with completely different goals and ideals. 

One example is what has been called polymelody, a style in which there are no throw away notes and in which each line of the texture has an independent contour and coherence worth following and satisfying in its own right. Rachmaninoff was really good at this, as were Myaskovsky and Shostakovich. They could write excellent fugues as well, of course. 

Then there is the completely heterogeneous style of counterpoint at which Strauss and Mahler excelled, in which disparate elements with completely different or even opposing characters are combined. I have a vague memory of Mahler calling this "true" counterpoint or something to that effect, meaning the art of putting together things that don't seem compatible on the surface. Prokofiev took this sort of thing to an extreme, often forcing conflicting elements together to the point where they are like a cinematic double exposure, walking through one another but not really intersecting or gelling. The slow movement of his Fourth Piano Sonata has a great example of this toward the end. Many of his development sections culminate in sections like this which often end up straining voice leading to the limit. 

So, for me, "master of counterpoint" can mean one of several very different things.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

No discussion of masters of counterpoint would be complete without mentioning Palestrina. He was one of a handful of composers who are what I'd consider to be "master" level where counterpoint is concerned.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What do the counterpoint mavens think about Titelouze? Master?

And what about Gombert?

And Cavazzoni?

Or Pachelbel? Masterful counterpoint?


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Does anyone think that Reich is a master of counterpoint?


I certainly don't.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> No discussion of masters of counterpoint would be complete without mentioning Palestrina.


Yeah, I'd definitely have to agree with that.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Wagner of course.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Well I certainly have not studied counterpoint so you are well up on me - I just recall Swafford in his Beethoven biog mentioning a few times that counterpoint was quite a struggle for lvb. Maybe he struggled but became a master...! But he's not the first composer I think of around counterpoint.


Nate Miller said:


> no one has said Beethoven?
> 
> I always thought he was a master of counterpoint. Maybe so obvious that nobody thought to mention him?
> 
> now clearly I recognize that Bach's music is different in style, but still....I saw all sorts of examples of Beethoven's work trotted out when I studied counterpoint


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

John Cage, e.g. lots of individual background noises in 4'33 at the same time in perfect harmony


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## Conglomerate (Jan 30, 2016)

Johann Joseph Fux. He was one of Bach's favorite composers, and he wrote the Gradus ad Parnassum, a treatise on counterpoint that Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all learned from. Georg Muffat and Jan Dismas Zelenka were students of his.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Conglomerate said:


> Johann Joseph Fux. He was one of Bach's favorite composers, and he wrote the Gradus ad Parnassum, a treatise on counterpoint that Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all learned from. Georg Muffat and Jan Dismas Zelenka were students of his.


Yes, I agree with you about Fux. And, as an added bonus, his treatise is actually _fun _to read--unlike many other music theory treatises. Fux uses a Socrates-style dialogue format. It's like reading a play!


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

To me, real mastery of counterpoint implies that the composer is able to create music that isn't just complex & flowing but also unique and beautiful at the same time. Counterpoint is always harder to do if you limit the pool of suitable puzzle pieces by dismissing results that are too ordinary. It adds a layer of complexity to the process of integrating subjects and counter-subjects etc.

Masters: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Bartok, Josquin, Gombert

Couldn't pass the Turing test: Fux, Buxtehude, Sorabji


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Chordalrock said:


> Masters: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Bartok, Josquin, Gombert
> 
> Couldn't pass the Turing test: Fux, Buxtehude, Sorabji


Beethoven is a bit controversial in this area, I've seen people praising his counterpoint and others pointing out its short comings. I've never thought of counterpoint as being one of his strong points, perhaps he falls somewhere in between your two groups.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

tdc said:


> Beethoven is a bit controversial in this area, I've seen people praising his counterpoint and others pointing out its short comings. I've never thought of counterpoint as being one of his strong points, perhaps he falls somewhere in between your two groups.


From what I've read, he struggled with counterpoint but eventually became one of its undisputed masters, pushing fugal writing beyond the boundaries that Bach had set for it. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise when listening to his late masterpieces or reading about his music.

EDIT: If you expect Bach, you may find "short comings" from that limited perspective, but it is not Bach, just as Gombert is not Josquin. It is a conscious decision to do things a bit differently, and it is done magnificently in both cases.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Hindemith could be quite good at counterpoint. This fugue from his Requiem is very dramatic.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Orfeo said:


> Glazunov (eg. Symphony no. VII, 2nd movement or no. VIII, mesto movement).
> Taneyev (eq. Symphony no IV, first movement, or his chamber music).


They sure were!

Glazunov's op. 101 is his contrapuntal masterpiece. Those are his 4 Preludes and Fugues for Piano, really gnarly stuff. He wrote other fugues too, some incorporated in larger works such as the finale of his 2nd Piano Sonata:






Counterpoint is addicting...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Chordalrock said:


> To me, real mastery of counterpoint implies that the composer is able to create music that isn't just complex & flowing but also unique and beautiful at the same time. Counterpoint is always harder to do if you limit the pool of suitable puzzle pieces by dismissing results that are too ordinary. It adds a layer of complexity to the process of integrating subjects and counter-subjects etc.
> 
> Masters: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Bartok, Josquin, Gombert
> 
> Couldn't pass the Turing test: Fux, Buxtehude, Sorabji


"Beauty" is an interesting concept to think about, it's sometimes used in a way that links it to ideas which may not have been priorities before the high baroque: balance, consonance, fluidity, melodiousness. I doubt it's univocal, I'm not sure how important it was to Gombert, Buxtehude, Bach and Josquin, or if it was part of their thinking, how they understood it.

(I'm not sure how Beethoven and Bartok felt about it either! The whole area is obviously really complex.)

Re Gombert, as far as I recall, it seems to work by imitation and rhythmic variation very much like Titelouze. Does he introduce countermelodies? I'm not sure. It seems strange to me that there were no instrumental reinterpretations of Gombert, like there were later for Josquin - I can imagine transcriptions for viols or keyboard would work well.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Chordalrock said:


> pushing fugal writing beyond the boundaries that Bach had set for it.


It would be nice if you could spell that out a bit for me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

When writing the Missa, somebody wrote that Beethoven "fought all the demons of counterpoint." The good news is, he won.

I don't think strict counterpoint was ever easy for Ludwig, but his works are full of impressive fugues and fugatos. Today we find many if these high points in his oeuvre. Weill, I do!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> When writing the Missa, somebody wrote that Beethoven "fought all the demons of counterpoint." The good news is, he won.
> 
> I don't think strict counterpoint was ever easy for Ludwig, but his works are full of impressive fugues and fugatos. Today we find many if these high points in his oeuvre. Weill, I do!


It may be here that there's an influence from Palestrina. It's often mentioned in passing, but I've never seen it spelled out and I'm not able to investigate it for myself.

You know Beethoven's music better that I do. Do you think contrapuntal frameorks -- canons, fugues etc -- are more present in the later music? That's my informal impression, but I rarely listen to middle period Beethoven.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven was always remarked (and in his early Vienna days criticized) as a "learned" composer. Meaning that his music leaned heavily on the baroque counterpoint methods. Even in the slow movement of his first symphony, the influence of Albrechtsberger's counterpoint teaching was apparent. Rosen remarked that he was the first composer, aside from Bach's sons, to be raised on the music of JS Bach. He had a strict counterpoint leaning throughout his life, but that seemed to grow more intense late in his creative life. Or so it seems to me.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

I think the reason there is a "controversy"(at least from what I've come to understand, is that Beethoven ran the rules of counterpoint through his compositional processes. That is to say he the music of his that is contrapuntal is "Beethovenized" not traditional, he tried to not be limited by the rules, he applied what he liked to his own unique approach to composing music. 

Counterpoint had to have held Beethoven's interest, it is generously marbled through his oeuvre, especially his late period. This is where he really stretched the boundaries, thinking of the caddy-wampus fugue in the Op. 106 or the incredibly imaginative treatment of fugue form in his opening of his op. 131, then there is always the massive grosse fuge (I consider it part of op. 130 cause I snobbish like that but you can call it op. 133 if you wish). You could say he was always playing with the possibilities of counterpoint, it never really got to far away from him. 

Personally I'd say he was master level but if he had to square off with ole JSB, I'd say he was outmatched.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> It would be nice if you could spell that out a bit for me.


Other than the parallel fifths and whatnot, it's kind of hard to explain, but it's almost like Beethoven wasn't composing fugues - he didn't try to make the texture seem like it consisted of neat little building blocks that only together create a sense of whole, it's almost like he often thinks in terms of melody and accompaniment or runs and bass or something. It's like it's still typical Classical Period music; so full of notes but he rarely splits his ideas into different voices, they're all just crammed together or part of a single voice. Bach has this trick that he has a musical idea but then he splits it into two voices by making them have long notes at strategic moments or by rigging the rhythm appropriately etc.

Beethoven also doesn't shy away from rhythms that create a sense of homogeneity (e.g. parts in the first movement of C Sharp Minor string quartet opus 131). This reminds me of Gombert, where it's often hard to tell different voices apart because they move in rhythmic blocks and there are so many of them, though there's always one or two standing out from the background, just like in opus 131. It's completely different from what Bach does.

The Beethoven stuff ends up looking less complex than it is, just as Bach ends up looking more complex than it is. Still, looking through key Beethoven works now, I'm surprised just how much there's two-part counterpoint or something that pretty much boils down to two-part counterpoint. I guess it's hard to see it as impressive from an intellectual standpoint.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> They sure were!
> 
> Glazunov's op. 101 is his contrapuntal masterpiece. Those are his 4 Preludes and Fugues for Piano, really gnarly stuff. He wrote other fugues too, some incorporated in larger works such as the finale of his 2nd Piano Sonata:
> 
> ...


Ohhh yes, how true. I've forgotten about his preludes (have not heard them in quite a while). 
Time for a revisit.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Is there anyone who would consider this suitable counterpoint for a slow dramatic theme?

I know this is a pop composer, but this particular cue hasn't much popular recognition. You have the high strings instantly countering the main line, followed by flutes and harp to follow the main line.

Timestamped: 




Does the music sound ugly, or, beautiful? Just wondering about opinions on this.



Chordalrock said:


> To me, real mastery of counterpoint implies that the composer is able to create music that isn't just complex & flowing but also unique and beautiful at the same time. Counterpoint is always harder to do if you limit the pool of suitable puzzle pieces by dismissing results that are too ordinary. It adds a layer of complexity to the process of integrating subjects and counter-subjects etc.
> 
> Masters: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Bartok, Josquin, Gombert
> 
> Couldn't pass the Turing test: Fux, Buxtehude, Sorabji


*100% imo.* There's a major difference between effectiveness and overfocus. A master is not someone who overly studies a subject matter all their life. What one studies must be put to use.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

To the OP, may I suggest Michael Tippet. Most of his work from the earliest to the later works are infused with a contrapuntal mindset. In his early thirties (I think), he even went back to his alma mater, The Royal College in London, to advance his studies in counterpoint. A true master of the technique who wrote some wonderful works infused with its spirit. Of course ymmv depending on your ears, but objectively speaking, his technique is assured and masterful.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Arnold Schoenberg and Anton Webern, though to be fair it could be considered cheating that they had each invented their own harmonic language and wrote the rules along the way.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Mahler, think I posted this before, but a great video to illustrate his chops


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I'm curious to investigate what other guys besides Sebastian Bach and his sons and Handel, Telemann were doing with counterpoint in the period 1700~ 1750. Their attitude towards the practice, etc.

Leopold Mozart seems to be an interesting case,

Fugues from Missa Solemnis in C:








some interesting modulations in the piece:





_"Of the manuscript compositions by Herr Mozart which have become known, numerous contrapuntal and other church pieces are especially noteworthy."_
https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=ucin1335462994

_"In the Missa in A (ca.1765), in the manner of the times, Leopold Mozart blends baroque and gallant stylistic elements and through formal structure and an expressive musical language he gives the Credo a special importance."_
https://www.carus-verlag.com/en/choir/sacred-choral-music/leopold-mozart-missa-in-a-oxid-10.html

_"Leopold admonished his son openly in 1777 that he not forget to make public demonstration of his abilities in "fugue, canon, and contrapunctus."_
http://mrc.hanyang.ac.kr/wp-content/jspm/20/jspm_2006_20_10.pdf#page=8

The Pignus Futurae Gloriae movement of his Litaniae de venerabili on IMSLP seems decent on score:
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im...MLP169311-Litaniæ_de_Venerabili_C.pdf#page=42
but sadly, there aren't that many recordings of this piece and his music in general out there.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

The true master! :lol:


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Mahler's counterpoint in his last 4 symphonies, Wagner's counterpoint, and Brahms'. All built structures beyond Bach in dimension.

Great moments are the last movements of Mahler's 5th and 6th, his entire 8th and 9th, and Wagner's finale of Gotterdammerung.

Brahms' entire music has great counterpoint, but the finale of his 1st is among his best - his chamber music is also filled with too many moments to name.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm curious to investigate what other guys besides Sebastian Bach and his sons and Handel, Telemann were doing with counterpoint in the period 1700~ 1750. Their attitude towards the practice, etc.


If I were you I'd investigate Pierre Dumage. But most of all, just in your period but only just, listen to this wonderful CD


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

interesting that no one mentioned Mendelssohn and Max Reger


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Jacck said:


> interesting that no one mentioned *Mendelssohn* and Max Reger


I remember Dvorak mentioning Mendelssohn's contrapuntal skills once:
_"Mendelssohn is undoubtedly a greater master of polyphony than Schubert"_
http://www.antonin-dvorak.cz/en/dvorak-on-schubert


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Brahms and Schumann stand out to me in the Romantic Era


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I remember Dvorak mentioning Mendelssohn's contrapuntal skills once:
> _"Mendelssohn is undoubtedly a greater master of polyphony than Schubert"_


Right, this is his complete quote:

"Mendelssohn is undoubtedly a greater master of polyphony than Schubert, yet I prefer Schubert's chamber music to Mendelssohn's."


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

I would say Brahms ¨zwei motetten¨ is a perfect example of mastering counterpoint! Just sublime!

http://www.calstatela.edu/sites/default/files/centers/Wagner/documents/Scubert.pdf


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