# Pronunciation of "Credo"



## hpowders

I am currently listening to Nikolaus Harnoncourt's final recording, the Beethoven Missa Solemnis and was jolted to hear "Credo" pronounced as "Creeedo". I've always heard it pronounced as "Craydo".

Is Harnoncourt correct? Are both pronunciations acceptable? :tiphat:


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## Art Rock

Recalling my Latin lessons of 45 years ago, I think it has to be "cray-dough".


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## hpowders

That's the way I've always heard it, as "craydo". Harnoncourt seemed to be unhappy if he couldn't be controversial, and he remained that way until his death. The Missa Solemnis was recorded only a few months before his demise.


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## LezLee

I too did Latin at school and would say cray-do. However my husband and I always argued about Latin pronunciation as he was a Catholic and had learnt ‘church’ Latin’ where many words were different such as cree-do. Used to really annoy me!
I’ve found most religious works get it ‘wrong’. Still, as none of us have met any ancient Romans (though I live close to,the Antonine wall) we’ll never know.


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## hpowders

It's just so jolting to hear it as "creedo"-a serious flaw in an otherwise fine recording of the Beethoven Missa Solemnis....but it's Harnoncourt. I shouldn't be shocked.


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## hpowders

Art Rock said:


> Recalling my Latin lessons of 45 years ago, I think it has to be "cray-dough".


I believe cray-_dough_ is the pronunciation to be used only during Communion, so I shouldn't _wine_ about it.


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## Botschaft

The e is a close-mid front unrounded vowel. The closest approximation in American English would be the vowel in the words _here_, _fear_ and _deer_. Note that it's one single sound and not a diphthong.


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## hpowders

The most frequent pronunciation seems to be "creh-do". "Cray-do" seems to be pure Brooklyn.


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## KenOC

I always think they're singing "Playdough."


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## hpowders

The next time there is a Playdough Symposium, I will try to attend, as I've never used the stuff.

Is it Mass-produced?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

It's "creh-doh", in Latin and in Italian - it shouldn't be "cree-doh", but an elongated "creh-do" might end up sounding that way. The awful "cray-doe", whether in a Latin or an Italian context, should be avoided like the plague.


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## hpowders

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> It's "creh-doh", in Latin and in Italian - it shouldn't be "cree-doh", but an elongated "creh-do" might end up sounding that way. The awful "cray-doe", whether in a Latin or an Italian context, should be avoided like the plague.


I wish the reviewer who recommended it, wrote that the chorus in the Harnoncourt performance of the Beethoven Missa Solemnis articulated the word as "cree-doh", because if fore-warned, I never would have purchased the CD. For me, that is a serious flaw.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

And who's to say how Latin sounded?

I have a live recording of Julius Ceasar (pronounced Yu-leye-ous Chay-za-ray) made on the Ides Of March, 44BC and he sounds more like a Cockney (not a Dick van **** type) than my Latin teacher (who had a strong Welsh accent).

Seriously though, I conducted the Budapest Monteverdi Korus some years back and their pronunciation of a Pater Noster (or Pater Nooster, as they had it) nearly made my hair stand on end. They also sang "coelis" (chay-lis in my book) as tsee-lis.

Admittedly, I prefer Creh-do to Cray-doh - but only because diphthongs are the very devil in choral music.

A wise linguist told me that Latin was pronounced differently across Europe when it was a living language, with the prevailing language's local accent being the strongest influence. The prospect of Glaswegian or Yorkshire Latin is a trifle disconcerting - perhaps as ugly as Bronxius, Bronxia, Bronxium.


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## steph01

I would have thought the pronunciation to use would be that which Beethoven had in mind when composing it, whatever that was.


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## Dr Johnson

FWIW:

https://translate.google.co.uk/#auto/la/I believe

(Click on the speaker icon)


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## hpowders

steph01 said:


> I would have thought the pronunciation to use would be that which Beethoven had in mind when composing it, whatever that was.


I didn't realize that among his other duties such as composing and teaching flirtatious young girls, Beethoven was also the Pope.


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## hpowders

Meanwhile, I haven't read the accompanying booklet to the Harnoncourt performance of the Beethoven Missa Solemnis. Perhaps there is an argument there for "creedo", although I myself wouldn't give it much _creed-ability_.


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## LezLee

Slightly off topic - there’s a place in Perthshire, Scotland called Lix, a road junction with a petrol station. Some years ago the locals put it about that the Roman 59th (LIX) Legion had been based there. This has ensured a steady flow of gullible visitors who buy gifts from the shop. In fact it’s at least 50 miles north from the Antonine wall. :lol:


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## Animal the Drummer

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> And who's to say how Latin sounded?
> 
> I have a live recording of Julius Ceasar (pronounced Yu-leye-ous Chay-za-ray) made on the Ides Of March, 44BC and he sounds more like a Cockney (not a Dick van **** type) than my Latin teacher (who had a strong Welsh accent).
> 
> Seriously though, I conducted the Budapest Monteverdi Korus some years back and their pronunciation of a Pater Noster (or Pater Nooster, as they had it) nearly made my hair stand on end. They also sang "coelis" (chay-lis in my book) as tsee-lis.
> 
> Admittedly, I prefer Creh-do to Cray-doh - but only because diphthongs are the very devil in choral music.
> 
> A wise linguist told me that Latin was pronounced differently across Europe when it was a living language, with the prevailing language's local accent being the strongest influence. The prospect of Glaswegian or Yorkshire Latin is a trifle disconcerting - perhaps as ugly as Bronxius, Bronxia, Bronxium.


A complex subject, this, which needs to take into account current as well as ancient differences in Latin pronunciation. For example the "tseelis" to which you refer, and the "cree-do" one hears from Harnoncourt's forces, are both characteristic of modern mid-European (especially German and Austrian) pronunciation of Latin. The soft "c" in "chaylis" is older but still not original in its own right either. It was a change which crept in during medieval times - in classical Latin spoken at and around the height of Rome's power the "c" would have represented a hard "k" sound and the "oe" diphthong would have sounded more like "oy", so that without any regional or other accent involved the correct pronunciation of "coelis" would have been "koylis" or very similar.

One thing which definitely isn't true is the idea that we can't know how Latin was pronounced back in the day because we weren't there. Quite a bit is known about how Latin would have been pronounced over the centuries. I just wish I could remember more of the references, but my excuse is that my Latin-studying days ended four and a half decades ago.


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## Guest

Setting aside the problem of the pronounciation of Latin by those who spoke it at the time of the Romans and their subjects, there must be multiple instances today of those who speak one language "mispronouncing" another. I mean, if I take a holiday in the City of Light, I don't talk about 'Paree', but 'Pariss'. At least we don't misspell the French capital in the same way they misspell London (pronounced 'Lundn' of course). But then was Kolkata a recent renaming or was it the return to what it was called before the British Empire insisted on Calcutta?

Funny thing, language. And Harnoncourt is entitled to insist on what he wants, isn't he? He's neither Roman nor English.


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## hpowders

Nothing in the accompanying booklet. Played it again for confirmation. Sure enough, "creed-oh".

Gives me the creeps. A Mass-ive mistake!


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## Marc

steph01 said:


> I would have thought the pronunciation to use would be that which Beethoven had in mind when composing it, whatever that was.


Exactly.

Across Europe, various pronunciations of church Latin can be found. And, during the ages, pronunciations probably have changed from time to time. 
To me, it's mostly food for thought for scholars, but to some it's a very important matter. For instance, here's what is said about the matter in the booklet of William Christie's recording of Mozart's _Requiem_:

_[...] Mozart's_ Requiem _received its first public performance as part of the liturgy at the Cistercian Abbey at Wiener Neustadt, a provincial town to the south of Vienna that was markedly Austrian in outlook. We took account of this cultural and historical background when deciding to adopt an Austrian pronunciation of Latin for the present recording. As a result, what you will hear almost certainly comes closest to the ideal of an authentic performance, while the closed vowels and unaspirated consonants characteristic of this region additionally lend the music an intimate, pure and penitential quality._

Apparently, Harnoncourt went the other way and decided to opt for the most modern pronunciation of Latin:

_Throughout the performance, soloists and choir adopt the modern pronunciation of Church Latin, enunciating "Cree-do", or "Agnus" with a hard 'g', which may grate on ears used to the more traditional manner._
Source:
http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=13966


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## Animal the Drummer

Those final references to Harnoncourt's recording are somewhat off beam, in that they don't take account of the fact that Latin pronunciation varies between different countries. "Cree-do" is how Germans and Austrians in particular have always pronounced "credo", because that's how they pronounce the letter "e" generally. It certainly isn't "more modern" in English-speaking countries - on the contrary, it's unknown there, witness the surprise it's generated in this very thread. As for the hard "g" in "Agnus", that actually is what diehard traditionalists (here in the UK at least) have always used, because it's classical Latin pronunciation. As with the soft "c" in "coelis" (which Germans and Austrians pronounce "ts"), the soft "gn" sound often encountered in "Agnus" in Anglophone countries is actually a later development which would have been unknown at the height of the Roman Empire.


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## hpowders

"Creed-o" is acceptable in American English, but Harnoncourt and Concentus Musicus Wien? What's THEIR excuse?

By the way, is there anyone here who would rather enjoy playing a Beethoven Missa Solemnis CD with "creed-o" instead of "creh-do"?

I inquired at my local pub and they didn't seem to care.


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## Botschaft

hpowders said:


> By the way, is there anyone here who would rather enjoy playing a Beethoven Missa Solemnis CD with "creed-o" instead of "creh-do"?


I wouldn't, since both are incorrect. The correct pronunciation is neither as closed as the former nor as open as the latter.


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## Nate Miller

There is no debate about Liturgical Latin pronunciation. It is Latin with a Roman accent. For the benefit of the heathen, the Catholic Church has been pronouncing liturgical Latin consistently for 2000 years. Latin vowels are always pronounced the same way, so it is more like "creh-do" and definitely not "cree-do"

although I don't think "creh-do" is the correct phonetics, it at least gets you in the ball park


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## Dr Johnson

https://forvo.com/word/la/credo/#la


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## eugeneonagain

All quite odd. It's pronounced the liturgical Latin way even in ordinary English: rhymes roughly with Play-doh® (probably not in the American colonies mind; they like to be different).


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## Nate Miller

eugeneonagain said:


> All quite odd. It's pronounced the liturgical Latin way even in ordinary English: rhymes roughly with Play-doh® (probably not in the American colonies mind; they like to be different).


yea, I can't account for why there's even a debate. If my American countrymen pronounce it "creed-o" then they are just plain wrong. End of discussion. Besides, wouldn't the Latin spelling for "creed-o" be spelt more like "crido"?


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## Dr Johnson

Crido (if it existed in Latin) would be pronounced with a short i as in "did".


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## KenOC

eugeneonagain said:


> All quite odd. It's pronounced the liturgical Latin way even in ordinary English: rhymes roughly with Play-doh® (probably not in the American colonies mind; they like to be different).


Standard English is spoken by 326 million people in the United States. Far fewer people (133 million) in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand speak local variants with varying degrees of comprehensibility. Experts expect standard English to become more widely adopted in those countries as their levels of education and culture improve.

Just saying, of course!


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