# what school or conservatory



## chee_zee

does not require me to play music? I'm wanting to get a bacc and be on about my life, no need for a phd. However, I did not start music til I was 17. I don't play any instruments. Do not try to get me to play piano, it is by far the worst instrument mankind has ever invented imo, I could talk all day about that. Therefore, I don't have any skills to 'demonstrate on [my] primary instrument', as though I play more than one :/

People always say you need to play an instrument as a composer, that's a load of hooey. How is learning the accordion gonna help me orchestrate with an ensemble of sho, shinobue, hichiriki, shakuhachi, koto, biwa, shamisen etc? how is learning the piano gonna help me to know what the floop col legno or falsetto flautando is? there's no point and I won't have it, so if need be I won't go to any schools, just thought I'd ask if anyone here knows of a school that doesn't make it's composers jump through hoops learning instruments or other languages or how to do astronomy etc..


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## Praeludium

How could not playing an instrument not be necessary for a composer ?
I've hard time imagining that. I guess that if you were a conductor you could find a way, but conductors also play the piano so...


Most of the schools I'm thinking of for someday (when I'll be done with my instrumental studies haha) require a pretty good level in piano (but I guess you can also be an organist sometimes playing on a piano). I remember some schools asking for pieces such as virtuoso etudes (no more precision), a fuga from the WTC, a piece of the level of a Beethoven sonata, etc. This is quite vague but still, they asked for some proficiency at the instrument.
They were only European schools though, and often quite "established" if you see what I mean.


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## chee_zee

how COULD it be necessary? it detracts from time I could spend on composing. I dont see the benefit


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## aleazk

Although I almost don't use the piano when I'm working in compositions for an ensemble of instruments, all of my, for example, harmonic language was developed on the piano, improvising, making piano pieces, etc. So the piano is still present in those compositions, in some way. On the other hand, I was first a pianist, so my way of working is not necessarily the only one, of course.


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## chee_zee

but I dont need that, you couldve easily have done the same thing putting pen to paper in notation software for whatever instruments the piece used, such as aitake chord progs


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## aleazk

yes, I suppose. But as I said in the edit of my post, since I was first a pianist, it's more easy for me to do such things on the piano, and also the more obvious and easy way for a pianist.


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## Polednice

I respect your position and agree with it to a certain extent, but I don't understand why you're so antagonistic about it.


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## chee_zee

Im not being antagonistic toward you guys, its my hate for the pompous jackasses that fill academia


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## Clementine

chee_zee said:


> how COULD it be necessary? it detracts from time I could spend on composing. I dont see the benefit


-Increases knowledge of how the instrument works
-Makes you better at writing for that instrument (and related ones)
-Gives you perspective as a performer, being able to see how compositions work from a player standpoint 
-Gives you a leg up on notation and music vocabulary

None of this is of course _necessary_, but they are certainly benefits. And I can't think of a good composer who couldn't find the time to both play an instrument and write music.

But to address your original question, from what I can recall of my own application process, Ithaca College, New England Conservatory, and Boston Conservatory did not require an audition (though this was a couple years ago, policies might change..)


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## chee_zee

Im not being antagonistic toward you guys, its my hate for the pompous jackasses that fill academia


clementine I looked those two up, and unfortunately I'm afraid they've had a change of policy. Many thanks for you help though!


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## Philip

chee_zee said:


> Im not being antagonistic toward you guys, its my hate for the pompous jackasses that fill academia
> 
> clementine I looked those two up, and unfortunately I'm afraid they've had a change of policy. Many thanks for you help though!


If you're already an amazing composer, you don't really need to go to college. I will assume that you wish to go to college because you actually want to learn composition, as opposed to just getting the diploma. In that case, you need to fill the prerequisites in order to be able to follow in class.

You will need theory, solfège, dictation, history, writing and methodology, etc. as well as harmony and counterpoint. In addition, you have to show musical prowess on an instrument, and provide a handful of compositions.

If you have good aptitude and especially outstanding compositions, i'm sure they will overlook a sub-par instrumental audition.

Hint: Bach could play most if not all the instruments for which he composed.


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## PetrB

chee_zee said:


> does not require me to play music? I'm wanting to get a bacc and be on about my life, no need for a phd. However, I did not start music til I was 17. I don't play any instruments. Do not try to get me to play piano, it is by far the worst instrument mankind has ever invented imo, I could talk all day about that. Therefore, I don't have any skills to 'demonstrate on [my] primary instrument', as though I play more than one :/
> 
> People always say you need to play an instrument as a composer, that's a load of hooey. How is learning the accordion gonna help me orchestrate with an ensemble of sho, shinobue, hichiriki, shakuhachi, koto, biwa, shamisen etc? how is learning the piano gonna help me to know what the floop col legno or falsetto flautando is? there's no point and I won't have it, so if need be I won't go to any schools, just thought I'd ask if anyone here knows of a school that doesn't make it's composers jump through hoops learning instruments or other languages or how to do astronomy etc..


First, you would have to look at only a handful of the highest level exclusive (and private) conservatories to avoid all the American General Education requirements - last I checked, for a bachelor's in anything, nearly 60% of undergrad units are in general ed. - and I could easily go into a rant about that requirement.

The conservatories are of course for the hot dogs of performance or comp who display well advanced skills to be admitted in the first place.

Next: you've posted pictures of yourself holding an instrument, the guitar. Unless you're audio syncing the playing of same at gigs, you've got an instrument. Many schools have performance in pop and jazz courses and diplomas. Theory and comp majors have to only minor in an instrument, a much less demanding requirement than instrumental majors.

Next; there is no getting around keyboard harmony, one semester, the skill required fundamental; it is a requirement for all music majors across the board.

Rare question which may shock everyone: 
do you really need a degree, or do you want all the info and training in music available at, say, a good state university music department? 
Then, take an earnest look at what those conservatories require in the way of theory, comp, music history, sight singing, etc. and take those courses only. I.E. get the tools and info you want and need, and blow off the rest. Risky for 'job security' but not really necessary if you are not planning on employment as a teacher in state school systems. Too, you will have to have a somewhat proven track record to get hired as a teacher in the more independent music shops, and those are infamously low-end pay scale anyway. Ditto a decent public reputation if you are going to hang up your independent shingle as a teacher.

Have an Associate's diploma from a junior college? Perhaps all your General Ed done there are then transferable credits, leaving you free to concentrate on the music.

Your instrument might be guitar, bass, as in pop music or jazz, or acoustic, in which case the lessons as a minor would be 'classical.' That is the most minimal involvement you could get away with.

Berlioz played only guitar, flageolet and flute. Then again, he was Berlioz, and people were not asking for master's degrees as qualifications for sweeping up someplace back then -- wrote a treatise on orchestration still in circulation today, along with a few little ditties which are still being performed on the concert circuits. Most every other one you can think of played piano, more than passably if not at concert level. It's the polyphony thing -- that it is all under your fingers, you can check actual sound, etc. Ideally, as in the middle ages, it was just ear training to relative accurate pitch, and you wrote at a desk, no instrument as aide. We're no longer there, just to remind you.

But you will be stuck with those requirements in almost all schools giving diplomas, that is for sure. I've suggested some ways to ameliorate what seems anathema to you, but you will have to bite several bullets if you want a bachelors in any area of music.

The no degree suggestion is only for the very capable and the very foolish and / or brave. I do not know you well enough to measure any of those qualities about you


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## chee_zee

where did you see a picture of me with a guitar, Im not aware of this? Ive played a bit of a guitar, back when I first got into music, but not like it was classical or anything for conservatories/colleges. I found that the new england conservatory does not require its composers to do an instrumental audition, though it does require 2 semesters of ensemble so maybe I could do vocal if my singing is up to par by then. I was considering carving my own path and not getting a degree as you said, plus money would really determine where I would be going. I don't plan on teaching either. 
Basically, I want to do composing for vidya games, orchestrating for films (as well as ghost writing and perhaps a bit of composing for films, though I doubt in hollywood composers get time to do their own orch so would probably only do composing for indy films) for money on top of my own music. I do enjoy studying privately much more, and could easily see myself studying orch and world musics I'm into for another 2 years at least (probably more like 3) before I felt satisfied and confident. I'm not the greatest composer, only been at it for about 2.5 years so I''ve only managed to place in one competition (though to be fair it's the only one I've submitted to as well). I've got another year to go before I have much of a portfolio too (I'm in a community college btw, so the gen ed thing isn't a problem if I find a university willing to take me without worries of a degree/instrumental performance).

The way I see it, I'm a late bloomer as it is, every last second should be spent on composing not extraneous things like attempting to play when I dont have any illusions about my mediocre power chord skills. as far as vidya games and film goes, they typically say that you really should only need a bacc, but really it's all about connections anyways. perhaps my time I would have spent practicing performing an instrument could then be substituted networking with industry people. At that competition I placed in (was just last week actually) our pieces were performed by a professional group of new music advocate from NYC. They ended up giving me the names of a composer who has a residency at the Chicago symphony as well as two new music ensembles in the Chi-town area, so I guess that's a start.


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## Romantic Geek

PetrB said:


> First, you would have to look at only a handful of the highest level exclusive (and private) conservatories to avoid all the American General Education requirements - last I checked, for a bachelor's in anything, nearly 60% of undergrad units are in general ed. - and I could easily go into a rant about that requirement.
> 
> The conservatories are of course for the hot dogs of performance or comp who display well advanced skills to be admitted in the first place.
> 
> Next: you've posted pictures of yourself holding an instrument, the guitar. Unless you're audio syncing the playing of same at gigs, you've got an instrument. Many schools have performance in pop and jazz courses and diplomas. Theory and comp majors have to only minor in an instrument, a much less demanding requirement than instrumental majors.
> 
> Next; there is no getting around keyboard harmony, one semester, the skill required fundamental; it is a requirement for all music majors across the board.
> 
> Rare question which may shock everyone:
> do you really need a degree, or do you want all the info and training in music available at, say, a good state university music department?
> Then, take an earnest look at what those conservatories require in the way of theory, comp, music history, sight singing, etc. and take those courses only. I.E. get the tools and info you want and need, and blow off the rest. Risky for 'job security' but not really necessary if you are not planning on employment as a teacher in state school systems. Too, you will have to have a somewhat proven track record to get hired as a teacher in the more independent music shops, and those are infamously low-end pay scale anyway. Ditto a decent public reputation if you are going to hang up your independent shingle as a teacher.
> 
> Have an Associate's diploma from a junior college? Perhaps all your General Ed done there are then transferable credits, leaving you free to concentrate on the music.
> 
> Your instrument might be guitar, bass, as in pop music or jazz, or acoustic, in which case the lessons as a minor would be 'classical.' That is the most minimal involvement you could get away with.
> 
> Berlioz played only guitar, flageolet and flute. Then again, he was Berlioz, and people were not asking for master's degrees as qualifications for sweeping up someplace back then -- wrote a treatise on orchestration still in circulation today, along with a few little ditties which are still being performed on the concert circuits. Most every other one you can think of played piano, more than passably if not at concert level. It's the polyphony thing -- that it is all under your fingers, you can check actual sound, etc. Ideally, as in the middle ages, it was just ear training to relative accurate pitch, and you wrote at a desk, no instrument as aide. We're no longer there, just to remind you.
> 
> But you will be stuck with those requirements in almost all schools giving diplomas, that is for sure. I've suggested some ways to ameliorate what seems anathema to you, but you will have to bite several bullets if you want a bachelors in any area of music.
> 
> The no degree suggestion is only for the very capable and the very foolish and / or brave. I do not know you well enough to measure any of those qualities about you


Do you need a degree? The short answer, no. But here's the long answer...

It's a dog eat dog world. There are not many positions in the world where all you do is just compose for a living. Those jobs are owned by the "1%." Unfortunately, those are the glorified contemporary composers that most young people aspire to be (video game composers, film composers, etc.)

I hate to break it to you chee_zee, but a life in composition will probably be entirely entreached in that "pompous jackassery" that makes up academia. I know of several amazing composers who are about to finish up their doctorate degrees. They cannot find jobs (and by jobs, I mean a job teaching composition, because that's the only way they can make enough money to live.) These people have incredible mastery of counterpoint, harmony, and compositional techniques. Secondly, most of these jobs will expect at least above average competency at the piano. I know you said you hate it, but it really is a composer's instrument. Most the composers I know where I'm at now have decent piano skills. They deserve jobs. The fact is, that market is already oversaturated.

I met some people in undergrad that played with the jazz band I was in that were composition majors. They were back in college studying other degrees like science and engineering because they didn't know what to do after a bachelor's degree. Composition is a dog-eat-dog world. The people that don't need degrees never needed a degree. But those people are discovered at an abnormally young age. (See http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7186319n)

Right now at CCM, we have a composition teacher in residency from Shanghai Conservatory. He said something very important, that I think most Western musicians and aspiring composers often disregard: "If you want to write music, you should be able to compose in any style." Does it mean your music needs to reflect that of Beethoven? Absolutely not. But those who can write like Beethoven are prepared to write excellent music in your own style.

I firmly believe this. I studied composition while I was an undergrad working on my theory degree. I felt like my personal style really developed after writing a few model compositions (a brass quintet, a string trio) and then I wrote much better works than I originally had been writing. I've since abandoned composition. That dog-eat-dog world is not my cup of tea. I still enjoy writing every once in a while, but I know my place.

I'm not trying to scare you. I just want to be forward with you. Composition is tough. I think it's harder than neuroscience or mechanical engineering or pharmacy. The job field is minuscule. The applicant pool is vast.


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## chee_zee

That's basically all I've done with composition thus far is attempt to at least get down many styles, mostly world music but also baroque fugue, canon, classical era forms etc. I've a few works in that regard, and am spending this year on the world music thing before I get back into the western thing full time. Bit of jazz here and there. 
I'd think its mostly about who you know as far as the media industry goes, assuming you're good at what you do (Ive got about 3 years before I'd feel confident with that). I dont feel a degree is necessary if you can already do all those things, its just difficult to learn orchestration on your own. The degree might get you those connections much easier though...I dunno, this is definitely not something one figures out over the course of a single night.

Ive seen jay greenberg before. not saying he isnt good, hes great.Hes still too young to judge how good he will be, but Ive seen nonprodigies just a few years older than him with extensive resumes, he has a rather bland string quartet on sony and a violin concerto.


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## Clementine

chee_zee said:


> clementine I looked those two up, and unfortunately I'm afraid they've had a change of policy. Many thanks for you help though!


I was surprised they all changed policy, so I double checked and I think you should do the same. Make sure you're looking specifically under the composition department requirements. And did you notice I slipped in New England Conservatory on an edit?

Here's the Boston Conservatory page: 
http://www.bostonconservatory.edu/apply/music-audition-requirements

For which if you scroll down to the composition section you'll see it makes no mention of an audition.


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## Romantic Geek

chee_zee said:


> That's basically all I've done with composition thus far is attempt to at least get down many styles, mostly world music but also baroque fugue, canon, classical era forms etc. I've a few works in that regard, and am spending this year on the world music thing before I get back into the western thing full time. Bit of jazz here and there.
> I'd think its mostly about who you know as far as the media industry goes, assuming you're good at what you do (Ive got about 3 years before I'd feel confident with that). I dont feel a degree is necessary if you can already do all those things, its just difficult to learn orchestration on your own. The degree might get you those connections much easier though...I dunno, this is definitely not something one figures out over the course of a single night.
> 
> Ive seen jay greenberg before. not saying he isnt good, hes great.Hes still too young to judge how good he will be, but Ive seen nonprodigies just a few years older than him with extensive resumes, he has a rather bland string quartet on sony and a violin concerto.


How easily you dismiss someone who was admitted into Juillard at age 12 and primary composition instructor is Sam Adler. Also, he's published compositions through Schirmer. Maybe you don't like him, but that kid has already achieved more than most people with composition degrees will achieve in a lifetime.


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## chee_zee

they make you do a bit more than some others

http://www.bostonconservatory.edu/music/bachelor-music-composition

it's not horrid, so I'll definitely consider it

I dont dismiss him btw, I just find most of his stuff rather bland, or at least a lot of it uninteresting. hes still young (like 21 I think) so its not like most artists have much to say that young. Im sure he'll be great, but for now it's mostly just remarkable that he has such god given ability for tonal memory and whatnot. mozart is a great composer, but I and many others don't care much for him. Not trying to discredit anybody here. Its on spotify, but here's some clips:

http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-Quintet-For-Strings/dp/B0013AYWXW/ref=tmm_msc_title_0

spotify:user:chee_zeelaylist:4P9ZWelf9AqkrWZIpxk18f


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## Mesa

Sod formal education, teach yourself, go forth and set the world ablaze with magic.

I'm a crap classical pianist but a virtuoso as a 'loose chromatic skank' pianist.


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## Praeludium

I don't know precisely how he studied and learned everything he knew, but you might want to look to a biography of Takemitsu if you don't have already.


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