# Self-teaching conducting



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Hello Talk Classical Community,

I am an amateur student violinist and I am curious in conducting as well. Since I might be given an opportunity to conduct my school orchestra, I want to learn conducting as a beginner. Since I have nobody around me being a professional conductor, the resource I can make use of are probably only the internet, especially, this forum. I am pretty sure that there are many very good conductors out there in this classical music forum, and I would like to hear your suggestions and thoughts on how can I study conducting myself! Please tell me whether I should read any book that teaches conducting, or watch videos, or go to concerts, etc. I am looking forward to your replies.

KevinW


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Erich Leinsdorf's book "The Composer's Advocate" may discourage you when you read what he believes a good conductor should bring to his occupation (admittedly, he was a notorious know-it-all who didn't believe a competent conductor should know any less.  ). You can get away with less, if leading a student orchestra, but it's an eye-opener if you decide eventually to pursue it professionally.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

MarkW said:


> Erich Leinsdorf's book "The Composer's Advocate" may discourage you when you read what he believes a good conductor should bring to his occupation (admittedly, he was a notorious know-it-all who didn't believe a competent conductor should know any less.  ). You can get away with less, if leading a student orchestra, but it's an eye-opener if you decide eventually to pursue it professionally.


I do not to plan to become a professional conductor. I just want to conduct the school orchestra because I am passionate in classical music and enjoy coordinating and leading the whole orchestra. Also, I want to do more for the orchestra. I want to make its members learn more about classical music and make them passionate in it. The current orchestra conductor, an adult, conducts without that much passion… What she focuses are only tempo, pitches, stuff like that. I really want to change it. Maybe I am more passionate about classical music than she is.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Maybe she understands what is within the realm of possibility of getting the orchestra to do rather than what you want them to do.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Your fellow students will feed off of your enthusiasm. Hopefully the piece you conduct, will have something for you to dig into emotionally.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Have I got the book for you! The Elements of Conducting by William Cox-Ife. "A book for the Amateur".









This is THE BEST book for the wanna-be and beginner. It's got everything from patterns, how to handle fermatas, upbeats, how to hold and use the baton. The next best thing is to go to as many rehearsals as possible, scores in hand, and watch and learn. I've learned more about how NOT to conduct in endlessly abysmal rehearsals with incompetent conductors than you can image.

But get this book! It's likely out of print, but there are copies on eBay for $10 or less. You will not regret it.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Becca said:


> Maybe she understands what is within the realm of possibility of getting the orchestra to do rather than what you want them to do.


Well actually the orchestra can do much better. Once there is a professional conductor (also a composer) coming to the school and conducted once. The outcome was way better.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Vasks said:


> Your fellow students will feed off of your enthusiasm...


I would expect that, but they can do better. Enthusiasm between the students and the conductor are interdependent. If the conductor is not enthusiast the players no way will be; if the conductor gets more enthusiastic, the orchestra will also develop their passion.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

All you need to know.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Olias said:


> All you need to know.
> 
> View attachment 161856


Did you learn how to conduct from this book?


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Thank you both. I will check these books up!


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

Here's something that you might want to check out.






I'd suggest taking a look at Bernstein. I know zero about conducting but watching him, it's easy to believe that he's personally extracting every note out of the performance.

Bernstein with Mozart's 40th Symphony and Mahler's 4th.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

KevinJS said:


> Here's something that you might want to check out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! What about Nikolaus Harnoncourt? I think his conducting is vivd as well.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There's a LOT more to conducting than emoting. And some of the worst conductors are those who try to emulate giants like Bernstein. An orchestra can tell instantly if a conductor really believes the over-wrought emotions or if he's faking it. The latter group I feel embarrassed for; then that changes to utter contempt. Until you have the skill of a Bernstein or Harnoncourt just be yourself. Especially with a school group where the technical challenges are enough of a problem and over-the-top emotional expression a distant hope. Also, there were plenty of great conductors who could wring every last ounce of meaning out of a work without having to act like a ham. Be natural.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Conducting is a thing of the past. Orchestras of the future will have no conductor.


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

KevinW said:


> Thanks! What about Nikolaus Harnoncourt? I think his conducting is vivd as well.


Never seen him in video.

One thing that I've read and may be useful to you is this: during practice, devote 90% of your attention to the conductor and 10% to the score. During performance, devote 10% of your attention to the conductor and 90% to the score. I don't know how much of Lennie's movements translate to differences in the finished article, but let me tell you that, to a lay-person, his performance is impressive and appears to add to the musical event. Perhaps that Bernstein video can show you the difference between good and great? I don't know. Ultimately, it comes down to where I, as the uninformed, will spend my money. You need to care about what flicks my switch. Bernstein does. Others might not.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> There's a LOT more to conducting than emoting. And some of the worst conductors are those who try to emulate giants like Bernstein. An orchestra can tell instantly if a conductor really believes the over-wrought emotions or if he's faking it. The latter group I feel embarrassed for; then that changes to utter contempt. Until you have the skill of a Bernstein or Harnoncourt just be yourself. Especially with a school group where the technical challenges are enough of a problem and over-the-top emotional expression a distant hope. Also, there were plenty of great conductors who could wring every last ounce of meaning out of a work without having to act like a ham. Be natural.


I would say I completely agree with you. For me the most challenge is not emotion nor the music but the techniques first. My school orchestra is surely the typical kind of youth orchestra. Getting the players organized is a priority over letting them get the music and emotions. I know Bernstein is good at conveying emotions via conducting and I appreciate his conducting very much for this, but I do know I can't imitate him that much. Also, for me, the reason that I should study the musical emotions is that I want to avoid some very basic mistakes in conducting, such as being overly excited while playing pianissimo.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Conducting is a thing of the past. Orchestras of the future will have no conductor.


Not really. The conductor is the spirit of an orchestra, which infuses spirits to the music the players perform. Think about a simple question: when you are buying a CD, how do you tell the difference between them? One exactly the same orchestra might perform the same composition for many times, and the difference only lies in the conductor. The conductor determines the tempo, the musical expressions, the understanding of certain parts and finally the way of playing the exactly same piece. If there is no conductor, every recording of the same piece will sound exactly the same. Then what people can compare are just the orchestras themselves, which sometimes do not differ that much.

The conductor also plays an important role outside the music hall. Many of them have to seek for potential funding providers for the orchestra and contribute to public relationships between the orchestra and the audiences. They also play an important role in determining the music that will be played and the location where the music will be played, etc. I know these works are sometimes replaced by "music director", but normally these tasks still belong to the conductor.

For me, as the school conductor, my main job is to conduct the orchestra and look for music we want to play. I am not sure whether I can decide the music we are going to practice. However, if I have the power to decide that, I will ask for suggestions on TC for it. My orchestra teacher will also have more time to do her other works (such as teaching electronic music and playing in several orchestras and composing).


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

If there is no conductor, every recording of the same piece will sound exactly the same. 

Tommyrot! Do yourself a favour and read the poster’s words again. Seems to me you are falling into a big trap here. The conductor guides professionals, experts. He does not, and cannot, put anything in that is not already there. His job is to bring out the best that his musicians are capable of achieving. The conductor is a part of the orchestra, of course, but he cannot introduce a single thing that the individual members are not already capable of achieving.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

Personal experience tells me that one of the keys consists in choosing the right repertoire for your school orchestra. Pushing the technical skills of amateur musicians too far quickly becomes an exercise in frustration for everybody. Passion and enthusiasm are praise-worthy ingredients. Just don't overcook it.

Regards,

Vincula


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

KevinJS said:


> If there is no conductor, every recording of the same piece will sound exactly the same.
> 
> Tommyrot! Do yourself a favour and read the poster's words again. Seems to me you are falling into a big trap here. The conductor guides professionals, experts. He does not, and cannot, put anything in that is not already there. His job is to bring out the best that his musicians are capable of achieving. The conductor is a part of the orchestra, of course, but he cannot introduce a single thing that the individual members are not already capable of achieving.


As a young and amateur classical audience, I do apologize for the ridiculous arguments I make on this forum sometimes; but I don't think my point on this topic is off. Firstly, your assumption is that every musician in every orchestra is as professional as those in top orchestras like BPO, VPO, CSO, etc. That is apparently not true, considering there are tons of youth orchestras that players have completely no idea what they are doing in a reheasal. Secondly, the conductor is in charge of bringing out the best of the musicians, but their main job is to make 1+1>2. Orchestra performance is a team work. You can't assume that the performance is the best when every player plays the best, because cooperation is needed. Lastly, the conductor create unifications in music. E.g., some players prefer a faster tempo and others don't. That is when the cnoductor has to make a final decision. Individual members of an orchestra can't acheive unification in performance, but the conductor do.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

vincula said:


> Personal experience tells me that one of the keys consists in choosing the right repertoire for your school orchestra. Pushing the technical skills of amateur musicians too far quickly becomes an exercise in frustration for everybody. Passion and enthusiasm are praise-worthy ingredients. Just don't overcook it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


Thanks. I do think choosing the correct music for the orchestra is more practical than raising their skills and passions, at least in short term.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

As far as choosing curricula, I'd reach out to other folks that are conducting similar orchestras. 

If you're teaching high school band, reach out to other high school band directors. There's likely a Facebook group filled with school conductors.

Go to as many performances of pit bands and orchestras as you can to watch all the different ways in which conductors conduct.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It's wonderful that you are getting the opportunity to conduct your school orchestra....hopefully, it will be a rewarding experience for both you and your orchestra colleagues...
Here are some practical things you can do to ensure that this happens:

First, forget imitating Bernstein, Karajan, Dudamel or anyone else - totally irrelevant to what you are doing....you're conducting your school colleagues - be yourself. you're not performing Mahler Sym #9 in Carnegie Hall.

1. Technique - learn the basic beat patterns - 4/4, 3/4 2/4, 3/4 in 1 [waltz, scherzo], 6/8 in 2, etc....it is doubtful that you will need to get into sub-divided 4, 3 or 6 and so on - BUT - you, as the conductor must be completely solid with the sub-division of the beats: 
1+ 2+ 3+ 4+, 1+a 2+a and so forth....you must know how every rhythm is to be played in every part....if the orchestra is playing incorrectly, you must know how to make correction. You don't need to mechanically chop out a 4/4 pattern with exaggerated gestures - that's "kapellmeister stuff" [B. Goldovsky] - it's unnecessary, and it insults the musicians. However, you are dealing with student musicians - they need to feel the pulse and to see the downbeats clearly....be yourself, and conduct naturally as you feel the music. Know exactly how you are going to conduct fermatas, pauses, accelerandos, ritardandos [more further on].
Another thing, very important - know exactly what tempo you want to set before you start conducting!! Have it in your mind...give a clear preparatory beat that is exactly in the tempo you wish to set.

2. Encourage the orchestra musicians to listen to each other - of key importance!! if the violins and the flutes are playing the same line, but playing it differently from each other - cite this - have them listen to each other - make the note lengths the same, same articulations, same pitches, etc....if necessary, sing it to them, how you want it played...since you've studied your score, you will know exactly how you want it to go. Encourage the musicians to listen to each other, who has the solo line, what part is most important....are you playing _foreground_[solo, melodic line], _middle ground_ [counter melody, inner moving voice], _background_ [rhythm parts, sustained chord notes, etc]??.....the horns or trombones may be honking out sustained chord notes, totally covering the clarinet solo - make them hear the clarinet, that voice must come thru without forcing or blasting....to the whole orchestra <<if you are not the clarinet - play softer>> 
the whole idea is to have the musicians listen to each other...I don't know how much chance you'll have to correct intonation - but certainly you can address unisons. octaves, perhaps major or minor chords. You are teaching them good ensemble playing, and developing in them the ability to self-correct and adjust, which is such a basic skill for all musicians who play in any sort of ensemble.

3. Musicians, like any of us, can become very lazy in our work....bad habits come easily, and you want to address these whenever possible - many musicians will routinely fall into a comfortable _mezzo-forte - forte_ dynamic range - nothing is ever soft, nothing is very loud...this dynamic monotony is deadly...require definite dynamic difference....a big dynamic range is vital - the greatest conductors demand it...
another trap of laziness - when orchestras play softer, they tend to slow down, when they play louder, they speed up...complete NO-NO!! when you ask the trombones or celli to play softer so the flute can come thru, remind them not to slow down!! when the desired crescendo takes place, no rushing!! [unless you want to make accelerando]...

Hopefully, these practical tips will give you some "hands on" techniques and ideas that will provide you and your colleagues with a fine learning experience...your fellow students will hopefully increase their enjoyment, once they start to listen to each other....students, esp, tend to bury their heads in their own music, and are preoccupied with just their own parts...the whole idea of an orchestra, an ensemble, is to work together, like a well-drilled sports team - listen to each other - hear where you fit in, hear the whole package, so to speak....good luck in your endeavor!!


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> It's wonderful that you are getting the opportunity to conduct your school orchestra....hopefully, it will be a rewarding experience for both you and your orchestra colleagues...
> Here are some practical things you can do to ensure that this happens:
> 
> First, forget imitating Bernstein, Karajan, Dudamel or anyone else - totally irrelevant to what you are doing....you're conducting your school colleagues - be yourself. you're not performing Mahler Sym #9 in Carnegie Hall.
> ...


Thank you! I will take these notes as my priority when it comes to conducting. It seems like you are an exprienced conductor that knows many priciples of conducting. Also, do you recommend any resource that I can use to learn conducting?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> ...another trap of laziness - when orchestras play softer, they tend to slow down, when they play louder, they speed up...complete NO-NO!! when you ask the trombones or celli to play softer so the flute can come thru, remind them not to slow down!! when the desired crescendo takes place, no rushing!!


The hallmark of the amateur orchestra! But what's really sad is how many professional conductors also fall into this trap. That's one thing that Toscanini was so great at: he could get zippy tempos while maintaining a pianissimo. And drive a huge crescendo and maintain a steady tempo.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> The hallmark of the amateur orchestra! But what's really sad is how many professional conductors also fall into this trap. That's one thing that Toscanini was so great at: he could get zippy tempos while maintaining a pianissimo. And drive a huge crescendo and maintain a steady tempo.


Lol, maintaning a steady tempo is so hard for me. As a violinist myself I even find it hard to maintain the original tempo while playing crescendos.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Here are some Cliff Note tips, Richard Strauss' 10 Golden Rules of conducting



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Conducting is a thing of the past. Orchestras of the future will have no conductor.


Or live musicians for that matter.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

KevinW said:


> Thank you! I will take these notes as my priority when it comes to conducting. It seems like you are an exprienced conductor that knows many priciples of conducting. Also, do you recommend any resource that I can use to learn conducting?


I've been playing in professional orchestras for 50+ years...I've seen the whole spectrum of conductor quality - great, very good, OK, poor, absolutely terrible...I've done some conducting, lots of sectionals, small groups..
For references, previous posters have provided some good ones to check out...but trust yourself, as well - you'll do fine. do your homework, know what you want to hear. Your colleagues will respect you when they see that you know what you're doing - positive, constructive, without being overbearing.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> The hallmark of the amateur orchestra! But what's really sad is how many professional conductors also fall into this trap. That's one thing that Toscanini was so great at: he could get zippy tempos while maintaining a pianissimo. And drive a huge crescendo and maintain a steady tempo.


Yup...loud/faster, soft/slower is a real trap....same with the perpetual mezzo-mezzo dynamic level....The excellent conductors will not accept these faults....another bad habit for conductors is to make ritardando at the end of every 8 measure phrase!! awful, talk about annoying mannerisms!!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

progmatist said:


> Here are some Cliff Note tips, Richard Strauss' 10 Golden Rules of conducting


You've got to remember to take Richard's "Rules" with a considerable pinch of salt....:devil:

I've always found Pierre Monteux's rules to be more beneficial and applicable. 
https://pacificsymphony.blog/2018/02/05/rules-for-young-conductors/


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

KevinW said:


> Hello Talk Classical Community,
> 
> I am an amateur student violinist and I am curious in conducting as well. Since I might be given an opportunity to conduct my school orchestra, I want to learn conducting as a beginner. Since I have nobody around me being a professional conductor, the resource I can make use of are probably only the internet, especially, this forum. I am pretty sure that there are many very good conductors out there in this classical music forum, and I would like to hear your suggestions and thoughts on how can I study conducting myself! Please tell me whether I should read any book that teaches conducting, or watch videos, or go to concerts, etc. I am looking forward to your replies.
> 
> KevinW


Hello, KevinW.

Self-teaching conducting?

Yeah. I've done that.

I practice in front of a mirror, the music from my speakers blaring around me.

I used to use a knitting needle, till I stabbed myself once, during a really raucous moment in the Berlioz _Symphonie Fantastique_. Now I generally use an unsharpened pencil. And I avoid Berlioz.

I've tackled music from every era: from Renaissance choral chants through the classical symphonies of Haydn and Mozart through the great age of the Romantics (early, middle, and late) and into the Modern period, though I have to admit that working with some of those Boulez and Berio and Xenakis and Elliot Carter scores can be a touch tricky. (Good thing I no longer use a knitting needle.)

Too, working with some of those soloists in concertos can prove confounding. I guess it's just that I have a better sense of rhythm than they do, since they're always going rubato on me. I wish they could keep a better beat when I'm conducting.

My audience, by the way, (you know, that guy in the mirror) loves me. So I must be doing_ something_ right.

Meanwhile ... good luck to you, KevinW, as you practice your rhythm beating, polish your score reading skills, sharpen-up your musician management skills, and hone your baton technique. (A word of caution: avoid Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique_. The thing's a killer at the end. First they march you to the scaffold, then those danged witches show up for a Sabbath. Terrifying, really.) Keep practicing, and I'm sure _your_ audience will love you as much as mine loves me.

And ... keep the music playing.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> Hello, KevinW.
> 
> Self-teaching conducting?
> 
> ...


My orchestra once did Marching to the Scaffold… And the whole orchestra was sent to the scaffold… The conductor did not get very excited because there are still tons of problems with the skill of the orchestra.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Vasks said:


> Your fellow students will feed off of your enthusiasm. Hopefully the piece you conduct, will have something for you to dig into emotionally.


The hardest challenge for a youth orchestra conductor is neither letting them play well nor play beautifully... The real challenge is to ask them to take their instruments out of the cases and sit on their chairs for rehearsal...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> Hello, KevinW.
> 
> Self-teaching conducting?
> 
> ...


Would you call this 'air conducting' , Sonnet (like air guitar but with a 'baton' )? You've inspired me to 'air violin' during Beethoven's op.132, now, Sonnet!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

There is an excellent book on the craft of conducting by the late Max Rudolf , who was once music director of the Cincinnati symphony and a regular conductor at the Metropolitan opera . 
It contains extensive information on conducting technique and diagrams of beat patterns etc


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

superhorn said:


> There is an excellent book on the craft of conducting by the late Max Rudolf , who was once music director of the Cincinnati symphony and a regular conductor at the Metropolitan opera .
> It contains extensive information on conducting technique and diagrams of beat patterns etc


Conducting the beat patterns is the easy stuff, at least the most basic patterns....it can get more challenging as the time signatures get more complex....


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2021)

Don't forget this conducting master!!:lol:


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2021)

Carlos Kleiber as largely self-taught. Just saying.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Christabel said:


> Carlos Kleiber as largely self-taught. Just saying.


Like Otto Klemperer used to say: "We didn't have conducting classes, we had role models". There have been many fine conductors who never took a course, had private lessons, or anything like it. They were great musicians first and foremost and that's all the preparation needed. It's the less-than-great musicians who need the course work.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Like Otto Klemperer used to say: "We didn't have conducting classes, we had role models". There have been many fine conductors who never took a course, had private lessons, or anything like it. They were great musicians first and foremost and that's all the preparation needed. It's the less-than-great musicians who need the course work.


I think it is quite different now, though, because music has became a very professional subject. There are so many musical institutes around the world educating maybe hundreds of thousands of musicians worldwide every year. I think most musicians we see today are all educated. Carlos Kleiber is one of the few non-educated musician, as he majored in Chemistry in ETH Zurich.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Like Otto Klemperer used to say: "We didn't have conducting classes, we had role models". There have been many fine conductors who never took a course, had private lessons, or anything like it. They were great musicians first and foremost and that's all the preparation needed. It's the less-than-great musicians who need the course work.


Of course, Carlos Kleiber had his father, Eric, who used to allow his son to sit in on rehearsals from a young age. That's a masterclass right there, but people have said that Eric didn't have the interpersonal skills of his son!! That he'd step up onto the podium for rehearsals and, instead of making jokes like Carlos often did, merely commanded "Beethoven"!


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Christabel said:
> 
> 
> > Carlos Kleiber as largely self-taught. Just saying.
> ...


Gustavo Dudamel recounted how he rose as one of today's most prolific. He sat in the last chair of the 2nd violin section. For whatever reason, the conductor was absent. Gustavo stepped up to the podium, and picked up the baton. The rest of the orchestra balked at first, but he proved to be more than competent. The rest as they say is history.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

progmatist said:


> Gustavo Dudamel recounted how he rose as one of today's most prolific. He sat in the last chair of the 2nd violin section. For whatever reason, the conductor was absent. Gustavo stepped up to the podium, and picked up the baton. The rest of the orchestra balked at first, but he proved to be more than competent. The rest as they say is history.


Tell youth orchestra conductors to be absent more often! This is the best way to discover new superstar conductors for classical music!:lol:


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Sincerely, I think you have to speak with some conductor and "take lessons" from him.
In any case:
- Don't imitate Bernstein, because his conducting technique is totally wrong (but this doesn't mean he's a bad conductor), and imitate the most "objective" conductors possible (like Boulez and similar). 
- Try to compare various conductors and understand what a conductor have to do.
- Pick "simple pieces" and watch what the conductor does. I mean, in a regular piece in 4/4 all the conductors do almost the same thing.
- Be always humble and understand that your conducting technique cannot be good if you don't study.
- Try to create a very close relationship with the orchestra and make the orchestra feel comfortable.
- Even if you have not to conduct a important orchestra and you do it just for fun, try to follow the score as much as possible...

And if you succeed to conduct an orchestra, I envy you Kevin!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I conduct occasionally, and have very little formal training. 

But I'm pretty observant, and have watched many conductors live of choirs and orchestras. I've seen what works and what doesn't work. 

I'm not a "great" conductor, but an adequate conductor. I can keep time, I can cue, and get some nuance out of a choir or band or orchestra.

I do have an interesting anomaly to my style, which is a bit of a hybrid of choir and orchestral conducting: It seems I conduct orchestras more like they're a choir, and conduct singers more like they're an orchestra. 

But it works.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

pianozach said:


> I conduct occasionally, and have very little formal training.
> 
> But I'm pretty observant, and have watched many conductors live of choirs and orchestras. I've seen what works and what doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Simply being in an orchestra is great training. An effective member must know what all the gestures mean in order to follow them. Gestures the general public would see as random arm flailing.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

progmatist said:


> Simply being in an orchestra is great training. An effective member must know what all the gestures mean in order to follow them. Gestures the general public would see as random arm flailing.


It's great training IF the conductor knows what he's doing, and frankly in the Phoenix area there are scant few really top-notch maestros. There's a LOT of flailing around.
https://vimeo.com/648367121/bb11e3cf39


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

progmatist said:


> Gestures the general public would see as random arm flailing.


Some great conductors make very reserved, or obscure [to the audience] gestures....the audience never even sees them...Reiner used to shrug a shoulder, puff out a cheek, raise his eyebrows, nod of the head, a little nudge of the elbow....Monteux and Richard Strauss were very contained as well, same with Mravinsky....

"The best conducting technique is that which achieves the maximum musical result with the minimum effort. The only general rule is to infuse all gestures with precision, clarity, and vitality." - Fritz Reiner


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> It's great training IF the conductor knows what he's doing, and frankly in the Phoenix area there are scant few really top-notch maestros. There's a LOT of flailing around.
> https://vimeo.com/648367121/bb11e3cf39


Or she...Marin Alsop much?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Basics (from a non-musician):

1) Know how to read music.

2) Know how what you read translates into sound. (This is the hard one, and requires as much knowledge and erudition as you have the enthusiasm, curiosity and patience to acquire.)

3) Know, through rehearsal and baton technique, how to get the orchestra to achieve it.

4) Know, on the podium, how to get out of trouble.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

5) Has exceptional people skills. There's no denying that charisma goes a long way in the conducting world. If you don't have it, no amount of technical skill will make up for it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> 5) Has exceptional people skills. There's no denying that charisma goes a long way in the conducting world. If you don't have no amount of technical skill will make up for it.


Fritz Reiner, George Szell, Artur Rodzinski, ... :lol:


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Becca said:


> Fritz Reiner, George Szell, Artur Rodzinski, ... :lol:


Yeah conductors need good people skills also for finding funders.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Becca said:


> Fritz Reiner, George Szell, Artur Rodzinski, ... :lol:


Yeah, in the old days those autocrats had something special, maybe not charisma. But I am going on the assumption of conducting today. No conductor can behave the way those guys did nowadays. No orchestra will stand for it. Today, those people skills are essential to anyone thinking of entering the profession. It may not be concomitant with the highest musical standards, but that's the way it is. A lot of musicians are really soft these days. They don't have a thick enough skin. You know, snowflakes. They cannot stand criticism. And too many conductors are too nice I think. They ought to play a union gig in Las Vegas - the standards there are extremely high and if you can't cut it, you're gone. Conductors of orchestras don't have that luxury thanks to union rules.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> Fritz Reiner, George Szell, Artur Rodzinski, ... :lol:


I guess we could consider generating fear and respect a form of "people skill"....


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

KevinW said:


> Yeah conductors need good people skills also for finding funders.


That's not a fair statement. Those were different times.


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