# Was Beethoven harmonically awkward?



## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Although being a big admirer of Beethovens' work, I've always found there's something strange going on harmonically. When I started listening to Beethoven I was very much into baroque and early classical era and found the transition somewhat difficult to make. Really as if there was less harmony in Beethovens music. 

Also after having listened very intensively to Beethovens string quartets for over a month I listened to Haydn's string quartets opus 76 and found that Haydn was harmonically much richer, like really a dramatic difference. 

When I compare Beethoven with the early Romantics (Schubert, Weber...) again I find Beethoven lacking in harmony and only yesterday I read in an other tread a post about Beethoven being much less harmonic then Brahms.

Having said that I think Beethoven compensates it all in his ingenious tension build up and perfect timing, being more efficient and economical then any composer in giving gravity to minor details and even to his silences.


So can you speak of a lack of harmony in Beethovens' music? Is this lack a condition that creates the other benefits in his music or is it really a defect? 

Or am I just tone-deaf?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well being one of the people you reference in your post - I don't think its a defect. 

Many people consider Beethoven the greatest composer of all time so naturally his music will be heavily scrutinized. I think many composers are more interesting harmonically than Beethoven, but he makes up for it in other areas. I do not consider his harmony awkward, but also not exceptional. 

Of course he was arguably the greatest composer of all time in terms of form and was endlessly inventive and exciting in his music. So no, his music is not perfect, but it is pretty amazing on its own terms and I don't think there are any composers that wrote perfect music.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

"I read in an other tread a post about Beethoven being much less harmonic then Brahms", in this context what's the definition of harmonic? 

As to, "Is this lack a condition that creates the other benefits in his music or is it really a defect?", my answer would be it's no defect. I'd be hard pressed to change a single note of nearly any of Beethoven's music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mozart seemed to be much more pre-occupied with harmony than Beethoven. Haydn too.
The brusqueness Beethoven achieved. Harmony had to take a back seat.
No more "polite" niceities to the ear as in Mozart and Haydn.
Musical daintiness was kicked out the door.

If Beethoven's music was harmonically awkward, it was done on purpose as a reaction away from the "parlor" music that preceded it.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

"Nobody has suffered more than Mozart from sentimental misjudgement. The [19th] century dealt with the glory of his composure by calling him "mellifluous", as if he were really just the Fragonard of music. To the nineteenth century - which prized the _evidence_ of effort - he was not wholly serious: charming, of course, but a little lightweight; graceful beyond measure, but lacking in muscle. The truth, of course, is entirely other. Try cutting into Mozart: you will soon find out where the muscle is. It runs right through the tissue of the music, and totally resists the knife." [Peter Shaffer]


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm not sure what you are talking about or what "less harmonic" means. Can you give a few examples of specific works and passages?


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Beethoven certainly arrives at some amazing chords. For example, that extraordinary chord from the 3rd symphony development section sounds like it was lifted out of Stravinsky.









There's also this famous passage from the Diabelli Variations where he goes from E flat major to C major in the blink of an eye.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

There is nothing awkward in Beethoven to my ears. His harmony sounds perfect. It always serves the right purpose in his works.

A am also confused by the statement "harmonically richer" when used to compare Haydn's and Beethoven's string quartets.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Anyhow, Beethoven's dead, so leaving comments in his suggestion box would fall on....ummm....deaf ears.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't see how Mozart or Haydn is "harmonically richer" on the whole. Beethoven was a revolutionary in terms of harmony - even the first handful of piano sonatas are evidence of this and why (IMO) his piano sonatas are so much more interesting than Haydn's and Mozart's. I think it was harmony that Beethoven was more interested in than anything in his music, save for perhaps sonata-form development. Maybe the OP doesn't like his use of harmony because he isn't a Beethoven fan, but that doesn't mean it lacks "richness" or is "awkward." The late quartets display some of my favorite uses of harmony in all of music - including the impressionists and later notables like Stravinsky.

Generally I thought that it was melody where Beethoven detractors focused their barbs. It's true Beethoven was after something different in his thematic material than someone like Tchaikovsky. And it's true that, absent a few notable uses of polyphony, Beethoven was heavily rooted in classical-era leaner forms. But harmony is generally where Beethoven is above reproach, or so I thought. But to each his own.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Like several other posters, I'm confused by "less harmonic" and "lack of harmony." How could a string quartet lack harmony? There are four instruments playing! 

Do you mean that Beethoven's music is more contrapuntal than Haydn's?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

If Beethoven were harmonically awkward, then that may be one of the reasons for the greatness of his music as he would have made up for that lack with more intensity in other areas.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

arnerich said:


> Beethoven certainly arrives at some amazing chords. For example, that extraordinary chord from the 3rd symphony development section sounds like it was lifted out of Stravinsky.
> 
> View attachment 91211
> 
> ...


The development section of the Eroica is a great example of harmony that may sound "awkward" but when put in context sounds perfect. Measures 244 to 283 come to mind.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> If Beethoven were harmonically awkward, then that may be one of the reasons for the greatness of his music as he would have made up for that lack with more intensity in other areas.


I would rather be called harmonically awkward than socially awkward.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I would rather be called harmonically awkward than socially awkward.


Ah, ha, ha, and Beethoven was both! Well actually he was not what we would call socially awkward so much as just someone who spoke his mind and didn't care what others thought!


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> I'm not sure what you are talking about or what "less harmonic" means. Can you give a few examples of specific works and passages?


It's hard to be specific because it's an overall "feel" as a result of being very familiar with Beethovens' symphonies, string quartets and piano sonata's and comparing these works with other composers (which I'm maybe not familiar enough with to make statements like I did)

Of course I could make it easy and put the grosse fuge against any Haydn quartet stating that Beethoven lacks in harmony.

But here we go, these examples may illustrate what I mean.
Haydn and Schubert having a "fuller" sound and maybe more "obvious" harmonies.
Beethoven being a bit more economical, not that comfortable warm blanket of sounds but eventually more interesting.

enjoy:

Beethoven op 18 no2





Haydn opus 76no2





Schubert string quartet 14


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I would rather be called harmonically awkward than socially awkward.


Imagine a poor modern dude who has been called both?? What's left in the put down department?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Imagine a poor modern dude who has been called both?? What's left in the put down department?


There's at least one thing left: melodically awkward. And that applies to Beethoven too. Poor guy! :lol::lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Imagine going on a date and a woman rejects you and you ask why, what's wrong....and she says, you're simply too harmonically awkward for me to date a second time.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> There's at least one thing left: melodically awkward. And that applies to Beethoven too. Poor guy! :lol::lol:


At least he couldn't hear that. Hopefully nobody was mean enough to write that in his conversation book....or should I say, "emasculation" book.

Every day I kiss the ground...so grateful that I wasn't born melodically awkward in Tune-isia.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Bettina said:


> How could a string quartet lack harmony? There are four instruments playing!


If I would write a string quartet it would lack a lot of things, regardless of the 4 instruments ;-)


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Imagine going on a date and a woman rejects you and you ask why, what's wrong....and she says, you're simply too harmonically awkward for me to date a second time.


A woman said that to me once and I replied, "well, your flats are all in the wrong places".


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

When Mozart writes an unusual modulation, it seems a delightful surprise. When Beethoven does the same, it seems inevitable.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Awkward is not a word I would use to describe any aspect of Beethoven. (Bruckner, yes. But not Beethoven.) Maybe harmonically different, harmonically adventurous, harmonically surprising. Harmonically "less genteel."


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Imagine going on a date and a woman rejects you and you ask why, what's wrong....and she says, you're simply too harmonically awkward for me to date a second time.


I'm harmonically awkward, as it happens, and once dated another harmonically awkward person. Talk about sowing the seeds of discord.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

arnerich said:


> Beethoven certainly arrives at some amazing chords. For example, that extraordinary chord from the 3rd symphony development section sounds like it was lifted out of Stravinsky.
> 
> View attachment 91211





KenOC said:


> When Mozart writes an unusual modulation, it seems a delightful surprise. When Beethoven does the same, it seems inevitable.


An interesting example from Mozart's catalogue that relates to both of these posts. The 18th measure of the slow introduction from Mozart's E-flat symphony arrives at the same dissonant inverted major 7th chord as the Eroica symphony although not as a "pleasant surprise" but as inevitable link in a rising linear sequence.

** Just wanted to clarify I was referring to the structure of the chord only and its similar climactic use. I didn't mean to suggest they had the same tonal derivation.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bettina said:


> There's at least one thing left: melodically awkward. And that applies to Beethoven too. Poor guy! :lol::lol:


The only one of the three that is true is socially awkward. As yet no one has stated with any clarity what harmonically awkward is even supposed to mean, let alone demonstrated something awkward.



trazom said:


> An interesting example from Mozart's catalogue that relates to both of these posts. The 18th measure of the slow introduction from Mozart's E-flat symphony arrives at the same dissonant inverted major 7th chord as the Eroica symphony although not as a "pleasant surprise" but as inevitable link in a rising linear sequence.


The chords are not the same. In the Eroica the chord is a Neapolitan 6/5 in E minor, in Mozart it is a IV6/5 in A-flat.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

After what I consider sufficient consideration, I would answer as follows.

No.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Putting on my lawyer's hat: What would you like the answer to be? And how much are you willing to pay?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> A woman said that to me once and I replied, "well, your flats are all in the wrong places".


G!!! Sharp!!!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I'm harmonically awkward, as it happens, and once dated another harmonically awkward person. Talk about sowing the seeds of discord.


Unusually clever, considering the geographical cyber-boundaries this post appears within.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Beethoven, one of musical composition's most inspired, original, and historically important practitioners, has been accused of melodic weakness, harmonic monotony, contrapuntal awkwardness, emotional overstatement, and I don't know what else. One would think that he was the master of making great cuisine out of bad ingredients. Evidently he is so revolutionary, so confounding to our conventional expectations of what "good" music is supposed to sound like, that he's still deeply misunderstood 190 years after his death, even while the world adores him.

Isn't that wonderful? :tiphat: to Mr. B.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Of the top tier greats, Beethoven was the least melodically gifted. He relied much more on theme and variation. But that wasn't his idiom anyway. He was about blasting the listener with revolution and power.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Of the top tier greats, Beethoven was the least melodically gifted. He relied much more on theme and variation. But that wasn't his idiom anyway. He was about blasting the listener with revolution and power.


You really must listen to Beethoven's music more.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You really must listen to Beethoven's music more.


I completely agree, sorry Art Music.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

The Rasumovsky quartet no. 1 in particular displays what distinguished Beethoven from the composers who preceded him and those who came after.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Comparing Beethoven with composers who came before or after seems quite unfair. Cruel and unusual, even!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Beethoven, one of musical composition's most inspired, original, and historically important practitioners, has been accused of ... emotional overstatement...


Wanna try saying that to his face? Well do ya, punk? 



> One would think that he was the master of making great cuisine out of bad ingredients.


A great way to put it, actually: it is well known that many of his greatest works grew out of material that initially seemed utterly banal, so much so that no other composer would touch it. It's like announcing you are working on a recipe for chili pepper ice cream. Think it's ridiculous? I once had some in an Italian restaurant. It was strikingly original and quite delicious.



> Evidently he is so revolutionary, so confounding to our conventional expectations of what "good" music is supposed to sound like, that he's still deeply misunderstood 190 years after his death, even while the world adores him.


Yup, as has been pointed out many times before, there are bits in his output that could have been written yesterday. So why does the world adore him so much then? Here's an irony:



ArtMusic said:


> Of the top tier greats, Beethoven was the least melodically gifted. He relied much more on theme and variation. But that wasn't his idiom anyway. He was about blasting the listener with revolution and power.


Well, the funny thing is, what initially attracted me to Beethoven, when I was a kid, was his gift for melody. No, he doesn't often write extended melodies like Schubert, he's more into brief themes and motifs, but those have always struck me as quite compelling, often making unexpected twists and turns, but remaining singable and memorable.

And this is the irony: people accuse Beethoven of being melodically awkward, but his melodies are part of why he is so widely liked, including by people who don't know much about music. Of course, there is more to classical music than melodies, but off the top of my head, I cannot think of many classical composers who reached wide public acclaim without writing good melodies.

And I'm not even talking Schoenberg or Webern here - the difference between Raff and Brahms is that one of them wrote pretty compelling themes, while the other did not. Of course, there are other differences as well, but I can guarantee you, those other differences are not why the one so much more popular than the other.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Of the top tier greats, Beethoven was the least melodically gifted. He relied much more on theme and variation. But that wasn't his idiom anyway. He was about blasting the listener with revolution and power.


This claim, made repeatedly on this forum of late, is nonsense. The opening melodies of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, the Eroica, the Sonata op. 57 "Appassionata" and countless others embody qualities of dynamic contrast, internal tension and multi-armed complexity beyond anything conceived by earlier composers. Beethoven demanded things of his melodies no one before had thought to ask. That is why, for example, the opening 40 odd measures of the Eroica required four continuity sketches before the theme took its final shape. Listen to the Largo e mesto from Op. 10 no. 3:






Where does the opening melody end? (For that matter, I would like to hear those who critique Beethoven's melodic gifts describe where any of the melodies mentioned above end.) I would maintain, as my teacher Denes Bartha* did, that the first ~3:30 minutes of the movement in the above performance of the Largo e mesto are one continuous, rounded melody which includes a modulation to the dominant. In their dramatic continuity and ability to encompass the most striking contrasts and changes of mood, melodies like this were, and are, unprecedented.

*See his: "On Beethoven's Thematic Structure." In The Creative World of Beethoven, ed. Paul Henry Lang, 257-76. New York: W. W. Norton and Company, 1970.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Well, the funny thing is, what initially attracted me to Beethoven, when I was a kid, was his gift for melody. *No, he doesn't often write extended melodies like Schubert, he's more into brief themes and motifs*, but those have always struck me as quite compelling, often making unexpected twists and turns, but remaining singable and memorable.


I disagree (but not about his gift for melody). I think this is just how people traditionally parse his melodies, breaking them down into discreet motives rather than hearing their full breadth and continuity. Listeners used to simply periodic melodic structures with neatly defined harmonic boundaries don't tend to understand that, for example, the opening melody of Beethoven's Eroica is over 40 measures long. Beethoven's melodic thought was at least as innovative as his formal structures. Not everyone has yet learned the kind of long-range listening their comprehension requires.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Not everyone has yet learned the kind of long-range listening their comprehension requires.


That's true if you "critique" Beethovens' melodic gifts and don't acknowledge his gift for shaping longer structured parts in a way that no composer did before (as you explained).

But I think a lot of people just want to point out what Beethoven did with melody is very different of what other composers do and goes far beyond writing a fine tune that pops into ones' head.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have the Lohengrin that is included in your set. It is a very good Lohengrin. Waltraud Meier exudes evil as Ortrud.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> This claim, made repeatedly on this forum of late, is nonsense. The opening melodies of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, the Eroica, the Sonata op. 57 "Appassionata" and countless others embody qualities of dynamic contrast, internal tension and multi-armed complexity beyond anything conceived by earlier composers. Beethoven demanded things of his melodies no one before had thought to ask. That is why, for example, the opening 40 odd measures of the Eroica required four continuity sketches before the theme took its final shape. Listen to the Largo e mesto from Op. 10 no. 3:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is an excellent post and I think it illustrates the point very well that those who insist Beethoven was a poor melodist have a very narrow and simplistic definition of melody. The closed, three-bar melody that is easy to hum kind. Beethoven's was on another level.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Back to the OP's initial question: Is Beethoven's approach to harmony awkward?

If you study the harmony of those that preceded and followed him, you'd know, like I know, the answer is unequivocally *NO!*


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> This is an excellent post and I think it illustrates the point very well that those who insist Beethoven was a poor melodist have a very narrow and simplistic definition of melody. The closed, three-bar melody that is easy to hum kind. Beethoven's was on another level.


This sounds exactly like the arguments some have made here in the past that Schoenberg was a great melodist. So is writing complex melodies that are difficult to remember an aspect of being a great melodist?

I think some might disagree on that.

I think what Edward is talking about is actually another example of Beethoven's strength in form, not so much in melody.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

tdc said:


> This sounds exactly like the arguments some have made here in the past that Schoenberg was a great melodist. So is writing complex melodies that are difficult to remember an aspect of being a great melodist?
> 
> I think some might disagree on that.
> 
> I think what Edward is talking about is actually another example of Beethoven's strength in form, not so much in melody.


My point is that if you take a narrow view of melody, you're missing a lot of beautiful melodies and just because your definition of melody does not always match what Beethoven wrote (or Schoenberg or whoever), it does not make that composer a poor melodist.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

I do not know much about music theory and/or harmony. Beethoven was innovative and by composing the 'awkward' harmony, he was trying to express different emotions, feelings and state of mind that he was not able to express in words or face to face with others. IMHO, a lot of these feelings/state of mind are quite negative - resentment, sadness, depression, rejection etc. Could this be the source of the 'awkward' harmony? In many incidences, Beethoven mixed them with pleasant feelings/emotions to create even more 'awkward' ones. Food of thought...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

tdc said:


> This sounds exactly like the arguments some have made here in the past that Schoenberg was a great melodist. *So is writing complex melodies that are difficult to remember an aspect of being a great melodist? *
> 
> I think some might disagree on that.
> 
> *I think what Edward is talking about is actually another example of Beethoven's strength in form, not so much in melody.*


Do you really find Beethoven's melodies difficult to remember? I don't. I find his melodic ideas striking, varied, expressive, and for the most part unforgettable on brief acquaintance. He worked hard to get them just right, and the effort paid off.

You're again making the mistake of separating "form" from the other elements of music. All elements of music must possess, and be constituents of, form. "Form" is simply the way something is put together so as to have coherence and meaning. Melodies have form and are forms, and can be structured in an enormous number of ways. EdwardBast describes the way Beethoven's melodies were shaped so as to possess and encompass formal structures, with concomitant expressive functions, they had not in earlier music. The opening of the "Eroica" is a superb example of melody-form; that little horn arpeggio is not "the melody," but only the beginning of it. But no need to repeat what EB said; I could only weaken his point by paraphrasing him.

Melody in Schoenberg and atonal music raises its own questions, and there's no need to drag those into a discussion of Beethoven. But if we were to look at later composers' handling of melody, we might also look at Schubert's efforts to meld traditional notions of melody with larger forms, or Wagner's Beethoven-influenced techniques of extending melody into structures that gave rise to accusations of "no melody" in his day. People learned to hear, in these and other composers, melody such as they had not imagined before. (I can't help recalling Stravinsky's characteristic quip about what Wagner called his "endless melody." it went something like "A melody that doesn't end should never have begun." Igor was not a Wagner fan.)

I don't know exactly what you think melody - or good melody - is, but in the whole sweep of music history from plainchant onward it has been many things. I dare say Beethoven has contributed as much as anyone to music's store of great melody.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> This claim, made repeatedly on this forum of late, is nonsense. The opening melodies of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, the Eroica, the Sonata op. 57 "Appassionata" and countless others embody qualities of dynamic contrast, internal tension and multi-armed complexity beyond anything conceived by earlier composers. Beethoven demanded things of his melodies no one before had thought to ask. That is why, for example, the opening 40 odd measures of the Eroica required four continuity sketches before the theme took its final shape. Listen to the Largo e mesto from Op. 10 no. 3:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beethoven is one of the greatest composers who ever lived, his strength was *not* with melodic inventions but with harmonic tension by theme and variation. Fact.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I love Beethoven's work, and I admire his art greatly as among the top three great composers. His art was crafted differently, majestically different. His idiom was instrumental. Name me several great arias by Beethoven. I doubt many would be able to do that.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Do you really find Beethoven's melodies difficult to remember?


I find lots of Beethovens' melodies difficult to remember, at least at first hearing. And that's what I like so much about them. When I listen to Beethoven a lot, larger parts of the piece if not the whole piece will stick in my memory.

With Schubert I find more easy to remember melodies, melodies that struck you immediately and that have a bigger emotional impact at first hearing. So I call that a "stronger" melody (although to me it's not necessarily a positive thing). The downside of these "stronger" melodies (as I call them) is that the only thing that gets stuck in my memory is that main strong theme that just repeats over and over again until I get sick of it.

It's easier to get blown away by Schuberts string quartet no14 at first hearing then by Beethovens' string quartet op 59no2 at first hearing. But I will get tired of the Schubert one much sooner then the Beethoven one.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It sure;y depends what you mean by harmonically awkward. If you mean he is as smooth as silk then no. But I want more from music than smooth as silk.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Beethoven's themes seem to always be based heavily around tonic, thirds and fifths. Is it just me?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Razumovskymas said:


> I find lots of Beethovens' melodies difficult to remember, at least at first hearing. And that's what I like so much about them. *When I listen to Beethoven a lot, larger parts of the piece if not the whole piece will stick in my memory. *
> 
> With Schubert I find more easy to remember melodies, melodies that struck you immediately and that have a bigger emotional impact at first hearing. So I call that a "stronger" melody (although to me it's not necessarily a positive thing). The downside of these "stronger" melodies (as I call them) is that the only thing that gets stuck in my memory is that main strong theme that just repeats over and over again until I get sick of it.
> 
> It's easier to get blown away by Schuberts string quartet no14 at first hearing then by Beethovens' string quartet op 59no2 at first hearing. But I will get tired of the Schubert one much sooner then the Beethoven one.


Yes, all else being equal, a short, symmetrical tune is easier to remember than a long, complex one. Fortunately, not all else is equal. That elementary sort of memorability can't really be at issue. What's remarkable is how Beethoven can drive his adventurous, extended structures into our memories by finding just the right note to follow note. And this is often accomplished by melodic extension. Play through the first movement of the Fifth Symphony in your head, right up to the second theme. That's a melody, folks - a long one and an unforgettable one - and it even provides the opening flourish for the second theme, which allows us only a momentary illusion of relief before it transforms before our very ears into an extension of the opening melody, which only then concludes as the end of the exposition. And then we're plunged back into the maelstrom to repeat our stormy voyage through that immense melodic span. But Beethoven _still_ isn't finished with his melody...

Sorry to get distracted from the "harmony question." But the attempt to separate Beethoven's "form" from melody, harmony, and every other constituent of music has got me in a state.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, all else being equal, a short, symmetrical tune is easier to remember than a long, complex one. Fortunately, not all else is equal. That elementary sort of memorability can't really be at issue. What's remarkable is how Beethoven can drive his adventurous, extended structures into our memories by finding just the right note to follow note. And this is often accomplished by melodic extension.* Play through the first movement of the Fifth Symphony in your head, right up to the second theme. That's a melody, folks - a long one and an unforgettable one* - and it even provides the opening flourish for the second theme, which allows us only a momentary illusion of relief before it transforms before our very ears into an extension of the opening melody, which only then concludes as the end of the exposition. And then we're plunged back into the maelstrom to repeat our stormy voyage through that immense melodic span. But Beethoven _still_ isn't finished with his melody...
> 
> Sorry to get distracted from the "harmony question." But the attempt to separate Beethoven's "form" from melody, harmony, and every other constituent of music has got me in a state.


That's the kind of melody that seems to be evading those folks who insist that Beethoven was a poor melodist. I think their singular idea of melody is something like this theme from Schubert's 8th symphony, which is a perfect example of closed, short and easily memorable melody:


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> I find lots of Beethovens' melodies difficult to remember, at least at first hearing. And that's what I like so much about them. When I listen to Beethoven a lot, larger parts of the piece if not the whole piece will stick in my memory.
> 
> With Schubert I find more easy to remember melodies, melodies that struck you immediately and that have a bigger emotional impact at first hearing. So I call that a "stronger" melody (although to me it's not necessarily a positive thing). The downside of these "stronger" melodies (as I call them) is that the only thing that gets stuck in my memory is that main strong theme that just repeats over and over again until I get sick of it.
> 
> It's easier to get blown away by Schuberts string quartet no14 at first hearing then by Beethovens' string quartet op 59no2 at first hearing. But I will get tired of the Schubert one much sooner then the Beethoven one.


I think Beethoven and Schubert had very different composing styles and they were trying to convey different musical ideas. We cannot compare the 'easiness' of remembering a melody from one composer to another. Perhaps we need to listen to Beethoven music as a whole piece rather than the small details. Nevertheless, the smaller details of harmony and melodic structures make up the whole piece.

Being a composing a like a communicator or presenter (in modern terms), some present big pictures of an idea and some present fine details of a topic. I think Beethoven is the former one than the latter one.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> I love Beethoven's work, and I admire his art greatly as among the top three great composers. His art was crafted differently, majestically different. His idiom was instrumental. Name me several great arias by Beethoven. I doubt many would be able to do that.


I can only thing of one and it is among the greatest arias ever written--Abscheulicher:


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I can only thing of one and it is among the greatest arias ever written--Abscheulicher:


That's a beautiful example of Beethoven's melodic gifts! Here's another example: Beethoven's aria "Ah, Perfido."


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

To my ears the opening melody of the 5th symphony beats those two arias easily. And there are lots more examples in Beethoven's symphonic works that have better melodies. All one has to do is allow for a narrow definition of melody to be broadened.

Incidentally, the off-topic is strong in this thread


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

David OByrne said:


> Beethoven's themes seem to always be based heavily around tonic, thirds and fifths. Is it just me?


A main theme based on the triad, strongly stated, was exceedingly common in the classical era (Mozart and Haydn, too). It established the tonality firmly in the listener's mind and set things up for the often adventuresome shifts in tonality to follow.

This was a very effective technique and continues to work today, contributing to the ongoing popularity of works from this period.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> To my ears the opening melody of the 5th symphony beats those two arias easily. And there are lots more examples in Beethoven's symphonic works that have better melodies. All one has to do is allow for a narrow definition of melody to be broadened.
> 
> Incidentally, the off-topic is strong in this thread


Yeah, I see what you mean about the off-topic. The thread was originally about Beethoven's harmonies, and now we're all talking about his melodies instead! :lol:

But I think that the two topics are at least _somewhat _related...melodies are usually accompanied by harmonies, so I think that it makes sense to discuss both topics in the same thread.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Recent letters have been discovered indicating that Beethoven felt very awkward playing the harmonica. He had intended to compose a Harmonica concerto to follow the piano concerto #5, but unfortunately gave up the idea.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven was definitely harmonically awkward. He once tripped over a diminished 7th in B-flat and banged his head on a watering trough. Still stunned and disoriented, he wrote Wellington's Victory. That made him so much money that he banged his head repeatedly for the rest of his career, but never again achieved such remarkable results.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Perhaps Beethoven feigned deafness to cover up his acute harmonic awkwardness.

He may have Hohner-ed his skills on the harmonica.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Perhaps the 5th symphony had originally been written for harmonica, but Ludwig then trashed the idea, but someone dug it back up:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DaveM said:


> Recent letters have been discovered indicating that Beethoven felt very awkward playing the harmonica. He had intended to compose a Harmonica concerto to follow the piano concerto #5, but unfortunately gave up the idea.


Now that's what I've would love to have heard.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

The development section of the 1st piano sonata 1st movement is more interesting harmonically then what most classical composers wrote. Although some of Haydn's piano sonatas can show glimpses of what was to come. Haydn's last PS in E flat is very interesting and I'm sure Beethoven was influenced by it to some degree. But from 1793, say, Ludwig broke free from his leash and changed music forever. The dedication to Haydn of the Op.2 set is probably a thank you although it could be argued that Clementi had more influence. As far as I am aware not one of Haydn or Mozart PS starts with an introduction. I may be wrong but was Clementi the first to do this? The start to Clementi's Op.50 No. 3 in G minor is very powerful and may have been the influence for the intro at the start of the pathetique. Yet I can't find when the former was written, but there are earlier sonatas by Clementi with intros that Beethoven may have picked up from. He did after all, apparently, carry copies of Clementi around with him.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Only as an adolescent -- like everyone else.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Perhaps the 5th symphony had originally been written for harmonica, but Ludwig then trashed the idea, but someone dug it back up:


Oh. That is just wrong.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Barelytenor said:


> Oh. That is just wrong.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> ...


You think that's wrong? Try Petroushka on accordion:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Barelytenor said:


> Oh. That is just wrong.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> ...


But you have to give them an A for effort!


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Perhaps the 5th symphony had originally been written for harmonica, but Ludwig then trashed the idea, but someone dug it back up:


Hey, he wrote sonatas for the mandolin, why not?


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

EdwardBast;1191g621 said:


> You think that's wrong? Try Petroushka on accordion:


Petroushka.

Accordion.

Wrong in so many ways, so many levels.


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