# Beethoven in Vienna



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I don't know what it is, but there is something special about the Vienna Philharmonic sound, especially in "core" Germanic repertoire. From Böhm's late Mozart symphonies to Kleiber's Beethoven 5 & 7 to Bernstein's Schumann to even Boulez's Mahler, this is an orchestra that has left behind some of the greatest recordings of all time in this particular area of the classical repertoire. I hope I will find some who agree with me on this...?

Anyway, my thoughts on this have led me to wonder something—what conductor recorded the greatest Beethoven cycle in Vienna? Bernstein? Böhm? Rattle? Nelsons? Furtwängler (not sure if he recorded the whole cycle with the VPO or not)...? Someone else? 

Really curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I haven't heard a full Beethoven cycle from one conductor with the VPO, but some of my favorite Beethoven recordings come from there: the aforementioned Kleiber, the Böhm Pastorale, the Furtwängler Eroica.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

I also really like the VPO sound, as well as the whole of Vienna. I think all the above mentioned cycles are worth noticing (I'm personally not entirely passionate about Bernstein, but...). What I'm missing in your list is (in my opinion) an excellent recording VPO with Abbado (my favorite).
As for Furtwangler, the whole cycle with VPO exits (1948 - 1954 Concert recordings). 







But for me the "quality" of sound is hardly acceptable (and definitely not enjoyable). Maybe there are other complete Furtwangler VPO cycles I don't know about...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Great orchestra but for me there's no great VPO cycle. Most of the sets mentioned have their merits and none are less than satisfactory. Of the VPO sets, I probably enjoy Rattle's 1st cycle set the most but if you swap out Rattle's dreadful 6th from that set with Bohm's superb one and then swap out his 9th (which is fine BTW) with Bohm's bigger performance you'd have a very good set indeed. The Nelsons new set is too broad and misses the mark for me. You didn't mention Thielemann or Schmidt-Isserstedt! The Schmidt-Isserstedt is a good middle of the road traditional, well-played set that's a decent starter set but I don't rate Thielemann's set much and that's partly due to a very heavy, bassy recording. Tbh, I need to listen to that again on SACD as it's supposed to sound much better but it didn't make an impression on me back then. I'd be happy not to hear the Bernstein or Abbado sets again. Its not that they're bad, far from it, they just don't do anything for me, especially with the enormous amount of competition out there. To the best of my knowledge there's no complete Furtwangler cycle with the VPO.

You could always put together your own Vienna frankencycle with individual cds.

1&2 - Rattle
3 - Karajan (paired with a nice 7th but may be OOP)
4 - Rattle
5&7 - Kleiber
6 - Bohm or Nelsons (both excellent in this one) 
8 - Rattle
9 - Bohm


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Furtwangler in Vienna is not nearly as good as he is in Berlin, and like Merl says I don't think there is a complete VPO cycle. He never recorded a complete cycle "on purpose" and thus the two available "sets" out there are very random. I think the VPO sound works well for Bohm and Bernstein, though if pressed between those two I would probably choose Bohm, whose 6th and 9th, as previously mentioned, are real classics for me and are in my top 3 versions of those symphonies. I don't get the Kleiber hype and never have! The first movement of the 5th is great but I just don't understand as a whole why his Beethoven disc is so celebrated.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

There are many very special Wiener Philharmoniker recordings: Kertesz, Schuricht, Kleiber, Karajan, Abbado, Boulez, Bernstein, and, I suppose, Furtwängler.

One of my all-time favorite collections of Wiener Philharmoniker recordings was this one, featuring all live recordings from the Salzburg Festival:










Karajan live, especially guest conducting, tended towards the more exuberant, and one of the performances in this collection that really caught my attention was Haydn 104, which is remarkably joyful and uninhibited. Also excellent are performances of Beethoven 1, Schubert Unfinished, Dvořák 8, and Bruckner 5. Alas, one of the performances on here that I was excited about, until I heard it, is _Also sprach Zarathustra_. It's nowhere near as good as Karajan's other recordings of that piece, especially because the orchestra had kind of a bad day: poor intonation, sloppy execution, etc. I was surprised Andante chose it.

Anyway, this box set is well worth buying, if you find it somewhere at a decent price. The stupid Amazon marketplace is asking around $900 for it.  Obviously, don't indulge them.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

George Szell conducting Beethoven's Egmont


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Furtwangler in Vienna is not nearly as good as he is in Berlin, and like Merl says I don't think there is a complete VPO cycle. He never recorded a complete cycle "on purpose" and thus the two available "sets" out there are very random. I think the VPO sound works well for Bohm and Bernstein, though if pressed between those two I would probably choose Bohm, whose 6th and 9th, as previously mentioned, are real classics for me and are in my top 3 versions of those symphonies. I don't get the Kleiber hype and never have! The first movement of the 5th is great but I just don't understand as a whole why his Beethoven disc is so celebrated.


It's funny, you know, ACB. There's a few who say that. I still like it a lot but I have better accounts of both symphonies. It's much better than that Orfeo live 6th though. I've never got the fuss over that one at all.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

DavidA said:


> George Szell conducting Beethoven's Egmont


Oooh! Good call.

As for complete Vienna Beethoven cycles. Hmmm. I suppose I would suggest Abbado, although I prefer either of his Berlin cycles. A lot of people really like his Vienna cycle, though, and I for sure wouldn't try to dissuade them. For Bernstein overall I like the New York cycle better. I haven't heard the new Nelsons cycle, and I found the Rattle cycle malformed and quite disappointing. I decided Thielemann wasn't for me a while ago, so haven't bothered. There's also Böhm, which I've only heard a few of, but I'd suggest that cycle is well worth consideration even if the few I know I found a bit stodgy.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I heard the VPO live quite a few times, also in recent years. I must say that the quality was not always what you would expect. The string section is probably the most seductive, rich sound you will ever hear from an orchestra, absolutely wonderful. The brass section actually has not such a good reputation. A thin and not overly confident sound, not in balance with the rest of the orchestra. And overall the orchestra feels less at home in the non traditional German-Austrian repertoire. Bernstein actually had to teach tem to play Mahler again, long after the ban from WWII. Also long after WWII, the scores would still have the Nazi symbols printed on them. Vienna is a very conservative place and they don't bear the burden that Germany had to deal with. I think the BPO has developed into a much more versatile orchestra over the years.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> I heard the VPO live quite a few times, also in recent years. I must say that the quality was not always what you would expect. The string section is probably the most seductive, rich sound you will ever hear from an orchestra, absolutely wonderful. The brass section actually has not such a good reputation. A thin and not overly confident sound, not in balance with the rest of the orchestra. And overall the orchestra feels less at home in the non traditional German-Austrian repertoire. Bernstein actually had to teach tem to play Mahler again, long after the ban from WWII. *Also long after WWII, the scores would still have the Nazi symbols printed on them. *Vienna is a very conservative place and they don't bear the burden that Germany had to deal with. I think the BPO has developed into a much more versatile orchestra over the years.


I read that when Bernstein conducted the VPO in Falstaff the business manager /trumpeter had been an active Nazi from 1933 and during WW2. Bernstein referred to him as his 'SS man'.


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