# The Descendants of Opera



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

I realize many people will vehemently disagree with this analysis, but I think that opera, as a living medium, is basically gone. The singing seems less colorful, the productions are getting more outlandish and abstract, new compositions aren't capturing the popular imagination... In short, opera, as an institution, seems to be running out of steam, as much as it pains me to say so. The art form seems more dated than ever.

But even though opera isn't in a season of renewal, it still has children that might one day cause such an movement. The most obvious descendant of opera is perhaps the musical, although that genre has its own roots as well. in addition, many musicals seems to be seriously lacking in depth, with little hope for their improvement (unless Joss Whedon writes one, at any rate). Is there any other genre out there that has the kind of potential opera has for drama, depth, and musical interest? While, for the most part, I'll leave that question to anybody who's interested, I would point towards an unlikely place: metal. While I realize that I'm already liable to be burned at the stake, for anyone who thinks that they can tolerate it, I would suggest that they check out the heavy rock band System of a Down, whose music I consider thoroughly operatic.

Anyway, I'd be interested to know what people think of the current state of opera (be kind!), its descendants, and flourishing genre that bears the most influence of opera and carries its spirit into the 21st century.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

There are a lot of folks out there that can discuss this more eloquently than I can, and although I understand your point, I think you are overstating the problem. When you say that the singing seems less colorful, I would ask you as compared to what? Productions may be more outlandish in Europe, but not really in the U.S., and opera certainly isn't in any danger in Europe. I am also not one who believes that the future of opera lies in more contemporary operas being composed and staged. Composers should keep composing, for sure, but that isn't where most opera lovers hearts lie. Opera, for sure, has the smallest audience of the major art forms and the U.S. has had a number of small regional opera house go on the rocks financially and close their doors - but the majority of companies are still in business. And, just look at the success the Met has had with its "Live in HD" broadcasts.

I don't think opera has run out of steam so much as the population seems to have an increasingly limited attention span, which may prove to be a problem. I am also a bridge player, and very few people under the age of 40 plays any more - video games rule. The ability to sit and absorb and revel in gorgeous singing is what is losing - and this tendency would seem to put all the performing arts in danger. 

I don't even want to think about replacements  - as far as I'm concerned, there aren't any. I'm not interested. Musicals? Bleh!


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

I don't see much of a problem. Great operas are still being written and performed, there are some great new productions as well as some silly ones. I do wish there was a bit more variety - how about some baroque opera instead of yet another Eugene Onegin or La Boheme?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> I realize many people will vehemently disagree with this analysis, but I think that opera, as a living medium, is basically gone. The singing seems less colorful, the productions are getting more outlandish and abstract, new compositions aren't capturing the popular imagination... In short, opera, as an institution, seems to be running out of steam, as much as it pains me to say so. The art form seems more dated than ever.
> 
> But even though opera isn't in a season of renewal, it still has children that might one day cause such an movement. The most obvious descendant of opera is perhaps the musical, although that genre has its own roots as well. in addition, many musicals seems to be seriously lacking in depth, with little hope for their improvement (unless Joss Whedon writes one, at any rate). Is there any other genre out there that has the kind of potential opera has for drama, depth, and musical interest? While, for the most part, I'll leave that question to anybody who's interested, I would point towards an unlikely place: metal. While I realize that I'm already liable to be burned at the stake, for anyone who thinks that they can tolerate it, I would suggest that they check out the heavy rock band System of a Down, whose music I consider thoroughly operatic.
> 
> Anyway, I'd be interested to know what people think of the current state of opera (be kind!), its descendants, and flourishing genre that bears the most influence of opera and carries its spirit into the 21st century.


I couldn't disagree more completely. Here in New York, opera is a thriving enterprise. The Met itself is in the middle of a little Golden Age of opera production, with a seemingly endless provision of dance and song and spectacle together that are just amazing; and the smaller companies and the schools and popup groups spend so much time and energy on new opera that it seems clear to me that the real artist community (as opposed to what, the fake artist community? lol) understands at its core how effective opera can be. Opera is what all art aspires to, I think. I mean, what is painting? Think of an opera, and remove the song, the dance, and the drama, and there you have it.


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## Fermat (Jul 26, 2013)

Musicals lack depth and Joss Whedon is their only hope? 

Oh, my. As a musical fan, I have to protest a bit. There is a lot of trash, but not everything that's come out in the past few years has been like Wicked. Quality work is still being created. And that Buffy musical episode was better than I think anyone expected it to be, but come on, Whedon is not the next Sondheim.

Anyway, opera... 

It's doing about as well as can be expected given the times. We still see new operas and creative interpretations. Not as often as most would like, but at least it's happening. One of the problems is that in today's world people can experience almost any movie, game, album, etc. with a click of a button and while doing so they can chat to their friends, eat, have sex, you name it. Most in the younger generations simply don't have the attention span for hours of 'difficult' music. We can and should help people appreciate deeper music, but our expectations have to be reasonable. The world has evolved in a way that will keep the size of the audience and number of innovators very small for the foreseeable future. But it's far from dead.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Considering most of it was written more that 150 years ago, I reckon it's doing quite well still.
The bottom line is great voices singing great tunes and that's what draws people, plus the orchestra, the drama, staging and spectacle.

But... I wish there were new operas where composers are capable (or aren't afraid!) of writing a tune we could hum. I'd also like to see more opera singers making the news, perhaps even for the wrong reasons ;-) Ironically, they're probably a better looking bunch as there's ever been. How many current singers could the typical household of today name beyond the 3 tenors of 23 years ago?


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I couldn't disagree more completely. Here in New York, opera is a thriving enterprise. The Met itself is in the middle of a little Golden Age of opera production, with a seemingly endless provision of dance and song and spectacle together that are just amazing; and the smaller companies and the schools and popup groups spend so much time and energy on new opera that it seems clear to me that the real artist community (as opposed to what, the fake artist community? lol) understands at its core how effective opera can be. Opera is what all art aspires to, I think. I mean, what is painting? Think of an opera, and remove the song, the dance, and the drama, and there you have it.


Agreed. Just in past few months both the American Lyric Theater and the Center for Contemporary Opera have put on mini- festivals each featuring a handful of new operas.

By the way, I think the most direct descendant of opera as a "work" combining all the arts in the service of drama is the cinema.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

An interesting idea, I grant you. What would the movies be like if they routinely included dance theater as part of the whole effort?


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> An interesting idea, I grant you. What would the movies be like if they routinely included dance theater as part of the whole effort?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Alexander said:


> ... But... I wish there were new operas where composers are capable (or aren't afraid!) of writing a tune we could hum.


Amen, brother.



> ... I'd also like to see more opera singers making the news, perhaps even for the wrong reasons ;-) ...


... like that recent notice about Alagna and Gheorghiu? 



> ... Ironically, they're probably a better looking bunch as there's ever been. ...


Hampson, Fleming, Kaufmann, Netrebko, who else? I think I take your point ...



> How many current singers could the typical household of today name beyond the 3 tenors of 23 years ago?


Here I take issue. I'm not sure there's that many current singers that deserve to be known as the ones from the past were. Even Hampson, I only know one opera that I really love his performance in. He's got a big voice in the right opera, but I saw him in Otello recently and wasn't impressed. Fleming, Kaufmann, eh. Eh, I say! Mattila is spending all her time on music no one can hum. Dessay is practically retired. Netrebko may have lost control of her voice, who knows. I'm not sure there's all that many opera singers that really are fabulous talents these days.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


>


lol all right, all right ... ROUTINELY, dang it! (the rebel bell) You know, Denzel Washington and Mark Wahlberg being followed around by a troupe of dancers in 2 Guns ... important emotional issues being communicated by dance in The Avengers ... stuff like that there. I know, it's ridiculobble.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Alexander said:


> But... I wish there were new operas where composers are capable (or aren't afraid!) of writing a tune we could hum.


Why is this important? Maybe for musicals, but not for opera. I'm glad we have composers who don't let their imagination and creativity be shackled by the audience's demand for "tunes".


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Garlic said:


> Why is this important? Maybe for musicals, but not for opera. I'm glad we have composers who don't let their imagination and creativity be shackled by the audience's demand for "tunes".


Well, it's not important to some, but for me it's just irritating how much crap people have to listen to to see a good opera. The Nose, for example. A wonderful opera, but the score is just so much screeching and twittering. Or Die Frau Ohne Schatten. OMG. I'm going to see it - if I'm still in NYC in November - heck, I'll probably see it six times. It's an incredible libretto, and the Met says its production is legendary, and I've learned to trust them on that. But the music, my GOD!! I'm going to wear out earplugs going to this one.

Now Wozzeck - I feel a bit like a renegade, but I actually listen to Wozzeck for pleasure from time to time. Not sure why.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> The Nose, for example. A wonderful opera, but the score is just so much screeching and twittering. Or Die Frau Ohne Schatten. OMG. I'm going to see it - if I'm still in NYC in November - heck, I'll probably see it six times. It's an incredible libretto, and the Met says its production is legendary, and I've learned to trust them on that. But the music, my GOD!! I'm going to wear out earplugs going to this one.


agreed on The Nose but Die Frau? are you not thinking about Elektra instead? sure, Frau is relentless, but it's relentless pretty music.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Fermat said:


> Most in the younger generations simply don't have the attention span for hours of 'difficult' music.


I disagree - if (young) people can spend hours playing video games then attention span is not the real issue. Further, I don't know that opera has ever had mass appeal. Who was listening to opera in the 17th century? the nobility. How about the 18th and 19th? the nobility again and then the bourgeoisie, who were trying hard to copy the nobility. Who was listening to opera in the 20th century? after recorded music became widely available, a lot more people. In the 21st? more even, yet it's not weekly top 40 material, but it never really was. Should we be afraid nobody's going to read War and Peace because 50 shades is the best seller ever?


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, I don't agree with the premise that opera is on the decline at all. Here, Houston Grand Opera is presenting to full houses and with a fair mixture of traditional works (Mozart, Verdi, Wagner, Puccini, etc) with new works - some not very good, but hey.

What we have to realize is that there were hundreds of operas written during the 18th-19th centuries and they were awful and were "swat" operas (sunk without a trace). Today we've got the perspective of actually seeing or reading about awful operas, bad productions, etc but they were just as prevalent in the "classic" era as now.

Singers being less colorful? Well, if by "colorful" you mean prima donnas of both gender who generate headlines by offstage behavior? Good riddance. Look at the professionalism that having James Levine in charge brought not only to the Met but to the elevation of standards to other opera companies everywhere. No politics, no special treatment, no hangers on, instead a renewal of true professional standards.

Besides HGO, we've got 3 small private companies (one I sang for), 3 opera companies with our larger universities, plus ad hoc productions of operas and chorales all the time. And all do a brisk business in ticket sales.

Opera is just like anything else, beholden to Sturgeon's Law (after the great SF author, Theodore Sturgeon, who was being interviewed about science fiction, and the interviewer said "problem is, ninety percent of SF is crud" to which Sturgeon replied "ninety percent of everything is crud." -- Sturgeon's Law)

It's just that we don't have the filter of two hundred years to discard all those terrible operas, and we've got them in our face. And likely for every decent new opera, there are thirty awful ones, and for every thirty decent new ones, there is one that's excellent. Sturgeon's Law.

After the Soviet Union went out of business, we've got an amazing wealth of good regional operas across eastern Europe, fine young singers, a few excellent ones. The thing is, we get some fine input to the worldwide range of opera singers, musicians, and composers (due to more widespread political freedom, increased general wealth, and easier travel). Add to this the increased availability of internet broadcasts, closed circuit feeds, less expensive DVDs. 

I mean, consider the world 100 years ago... few people would ever have the finances to see an opera live, let alone even live in a city where there was an opera company. Nowdays you at least have the chance to see La Boheme or another very popular opera, at reasonable cost. It may not be Met or Covent Garden rank, but at least it's live. And there are now recordings and videos galore.

I think it's terrific! And I actually think it's a great new age for the availability of most any classical performances, opera included.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Regarding Broadway musicals vs opera, and "tuneful" operas...

Broadway musicals also adhere to Sturgeon's Law. Only a very few are musically top rank (South Pacific, Camelot, West Side Story of course, etc). I'm quite lukewarm on musicals myself, even though I've sung in them and have learned quite a few of the classic baritone songs for my paid (and free) appearances at weddings and such, Some Enchanted Evening, September Song, etc.

But generally, musicals just don't have the quality of score that operas do, for one single reason: you don't have Mozart or Verdi or Wagner or whomever writing them. Bernstein is a rare exception. And the singers also aren't quite as good.

But they have their place and are decent entertainment, musical theater is just fine as I see it.

Regarding "tuneful" opera scores vs "modern", yeah, for many people, modern classical music is an acquired taste, like single malt scotch. It certainly was for me. At first it was atonal and dissonant without my being able to detect the aspects of modern composition that make it valid, superb, enjoyable despite not being very "tuneful".

Realize that, per Sturgeon's Law I described in the previous posting, for classical opera (18th-19th century), we've got the filter of the centuries that has essentially eliminated all the cruddy operas of that era and all we've got left are the cream. But for modern stuff, we hear it all, and a lot of it's lousy. Whereas we've got the automatic selection or refinement process of time to eliminate bad classical opera from the venue, we need to exercise our own discretionary judgment for modern opera. And this is as it should be.

Another point was made as to whether most everyday people can name more than 3 opera singers. I'd say maybe only one, "that, you know, that fat guy with the handkerchief, I forget his name, Pattyochi? Didn't he die?"

Who cares? At one time, particularly in the 19th century and early 20th, opera singers were a sort of "royalty", same as pop singers or TV/movie stars are nowadays. So maybe the general public could recall 3 or 4 singers but that wasn't an aspect of the public actually being "fans" of that singer rather than the singer being a public figure.

I'd hazard a guess but I'd bet that today, we've got a slightly larger percentage of the population who's cognizant of classical music and opera than there were 100 or 200 years ago. Just a guess, you understand, but I'd attribute it to greater general health, more leisure time, and increased general wealth.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> But... I wish there were new operas where composers are capable (or aren't afraid!) of writing a tune we could hum. I'd also like to see more opera singers making the news, perhaps even for the wrong reasons ;-) Ironically, they're probably a better looking bunch as there's ever been. How many current singers could the typical household of today name beyond the 3 tenors of 23 years ago?


I think there are nice tunes in some new operas. What I don´t like is that it is the orchestra that stands for the tunes in many new operas while the singers make som songlike speaking. I would also appreciate some tunes that sound happy in new operas there is joy in life too and that should be reflected in operas.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The earlier argument about few contemporary operas having any staying power seems rather unlikely when you think of the number of operas of the last 200 years which are still in some form of repertory as a percentage of the number that were actually written. I would say that if there are 3 or 4 operas from the current century to now which survive, it won't be much different from the past.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

But I hear the same sorts of complaints about movies, music and television: they're not being done properly any more, audiences are down, audiences are split between too many entertainment choices. If opera were really on its deathbed, we'd be hearing about more major companies shutting down. What's happening is that the repertoire is expanding and there are more choices and not everyone is on the same page, and not everyone is interested in lionizing the same handful of performers doing the same handful of works. Individual operas are getting less attention, and individual singers less attention, yet the opera world seems to trundle onward.

Youtube has done its part to fragment operatic attention spans, I feel. Now even among past performers there are so many choices of things to sample. Aren't we really lamenting the demise of an "opera scene" where everyone was more or less agreed on who and what was important?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Well, if you look at the dates of the posts in this thread suggesting "the end of opera" as we know it, it looks like we're still here and grooving. 
Maybe opera will never be the way it was many years ago in the Golden age but it still has plenty to offer with some truly stupendous talents along with new and innovative ways of presenting it (in some people's eyes, that is!) 
Opera has changed and will continue to evolve, and it will be here in a different way for future generations to enjoy long after we have finally expressed our last. 
But even then, as is a quirk of human nature, it will still offer the same old arguments of the dangers or demise of opera even then. 
What goes around, comes around.


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