# Round Two: Brahms. Die Mainacht. Baker, DFDieskau, Ludwig



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

4 Songs, Op. 43: No. 2 Die Mainacht · Johannes Brahms · Janet Baker · Martin Isepp The Voice of Janet Baker 




Bass- Baritone Vocals: Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau Producer: Suvi Raj Grubb Piano: Wolfgang Sawallisch




Mezzo-soprano Vocals: Christa Ludwig Piano: Gerald Moore Composer: Johannes Brahms Poet: Ludwig Christoph Heinrich Hölty


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Now this is going to be difficult for me. All three of these versions are excellent and I prefer all three of them to Anderson, whose beautiful but penny plain version seems to be leading her round. Weirdly enough it's Wunderlich and his wonderful mezzo voce legato that I can't get out of my head. Lieder singing is about much more than a beautiful voice and all three of these singers really engage with the text.

As for these three, Ludwig is beautiful and obviously understands the song, but for some reason she didn't move me as much as the other two so I (rather regretfully) eliminated her first. That leaves me with the young Baker and the youngish Fischer-Dieskau and how does one compare a mezo with a baritone? Both of them beautifully vary tone colour and volume. If I ultimately pick DFD, it is more because I slightly prefer the man's voice here and I particularly liked the change of colour in the secnd verse, beginning _Überhüllet vom Laub, girret ein Taubenpaar _which expresses the coing of the doves. 

As most people know, Baker is one of my very favourite singers and she is wonderful here, but I'm going to give the edge to DFD. I know she admired him enormously (and shared recitals with him sometimes) so I'm sure she wouldn't mind.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Now this is going to be difficult for me. All three of these versions are excellent and I prefer all three of them to Anderson, whose beautiful but penny plain version seems to be leading her round. Weirdly enough it's Wunderlich and his wonderful mezzo voce legato that I can't get out of my head. Lieder singing is about much more than a beautiful voice and all three of these singers really engage with the text.
> 
> As for these three, Ludwig is beautiful and obviously understands the song, but for some reason she didn't move me as much as the other two so I (rather regretfully) eliminated her first. That leaves me with the young Baker and the youngish Fischer-Dieskau and how does one compare a mezo with a baritone? Both of them beautifully vary tone colour and volume. If I ultimately pick DFD, it is more because I slightly prefer the man's voice here and I particularly liked the change of colour in the secnd verse, beginning _Überhüllet vom Laub, girret ein Taubenpaar _which expresses the coing of the doves.
> 
> As most people know, Baker is one of my very favourite singers and she is wonderful here, but I'm going to give the edge to DFD. I know she admired him enormously (and shared recitals with him sometimes) so I'm sure she wouldn't mind.


You recommended him and I greatly enjoyed his performance!! Thank you. Next round may be hard too. Anderson is better on some other songs.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Having proposed Ludwig, I am of course slightly biased in this contest. Then again, I could have been swayed another way by a performance of higher calibre, but it is not the case here. I eliminated DFD first. In my view, no amount of tone colouring or word painting (or overintellectualization) can compensate for a flawed instrument, even in Lied. A beautiful voice is not the only thing that matters, but it remains the foundation for all the rest, for a beautiful voice is efficiently-working and healthy. When the voice is free, full and spinning in all the registers, then can a singer use the full potential of his/her instrument to express the underlying emotions to be found in works of vocal music. DFD’s voice becomes harsh and dry when he sings higher and with greater volume, which demonstrates incomplete register coordination. I do not really care for his tone (consequence of his vocal production), and never truly understood all the appreciation that he receives. He gets the meaning of the Lied across, but a better-used instrument could express even more.

Then comes Baker. To be completely honest, I have never really warmed to her voice. I find that there is often a slight harshness in her singing, even more apparent when she sings higher and at a greater volume (not on the same level as DFD, but the principle is the same). It gives me the feeling that her voice is never free, feeling which has been exacerbated by other performances that I have heard. Nonetheless, she has strengths. I quite appreciate the tone of her voice, at least more than DFD, and I can understand her appeal as a singer, but my vote will not go to her. 

As for Ludwig, she had it all. A voice used to its highest potential, which enabled her to express her keen dramatic insight to its fullest. Her diction is clear, her legato is splendid and her voice is always full, spinning and blooming in all of its register. All of this is only possible when the voice is healthy and, necessarily, beautiful. She gets the meaning of the lied across, like the two others, but this time, no technical flaws comes in the way of my appreciation. She gets my vote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The next contest I invited T-London to do a French song contest. He has a full array of artists for you to judge. Enjoy.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> Having proposed Ludwig, I am of course slightly biased in this contest. Then again, I could have been swayed another way by a performance of higher calibre, but it is not the case here. I eliminated DFD first. In my view, no amount of tone colouring or word painting (or overintellectualization) can compensate for a flawed instrument, even in Lied. A beautiful voice is not the only thing that matters, but it remains the foundation for all the rest, for a beautiful voice is efficiently-working and healthy. When the voice is free, full and spinning in all the registers, then can a singer use the full potential of his/her instrument to express the underlying emotions to be found in works of vocal music. DFD’s voice becomes harsh and dry when he sings higher and with greater volume, which demonstrates incomplete register coordination. I do not really care for his tone (consequence of his vocal production), and never truly understood all the appreciation that he receives. He gets the meaning of the Lied across, but a better-used instrument could express even more.
> 
> Then comes Baker. To be completely honest, I have never really warmed to her voice. I find that there is often a slight harshness in her singing, even more apparent when she sings higher and at a greater volume (not on the same level as DFD, but the principle is the same). It gives me the feeling that her voice is never free, feeling which has been exacerbated by other performances that I have heard. Nonetheless, she has strengths. I quite appreciate the tone of her voice, at least more than DFD, and I can understand her appeal as a singer, but my vote will not go to her.
> 
> As for Ludwig, she had it all. A voice used to its highest potential, which enabled her to express her keen dramatic insight to its fullest. Her diction is clear, her legato is splendid and her voice is always full, spinning and blooming in all of its register. All of this is only possible when the voice is healthy and, necessarily, beautiful. She gets the meaning of the lied across, like the two others, but this time, no technical flaws comes in the way of my appreciation. She gets my vote.


You don't comment in the contests on a regular basis so I am glad this got you to participate. Have a good day.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> Having proposed Ludwig, I am of course slightly biased in this contest. Then again, I could have been swayed another way by a performance of higher calibre, but it is not the case here. I eliminated DFD first. In my view, no amount of tone colouring or word painting (or overintellectualization) can compensate for a flawed instrument, even in Lied. A beautiful voice is not the only thing that matters, but it remains the foundation for all the rest, for a beautiful voice is efficiently-working and healthy. When the voice is free, full and spinning in all the registers, then can a singer use the full potential of his/her instrument to express the underlying emotions to be found in works of vocal music. DFD’s voice becomes harsh and dry when he sings higher and with greater volume, which demonstrates incomplete register coordination. I do not really care for his tone (consequence of his vocal production), and never truly understood all the appreciation that he receives. He gets the meaning of the Lied across, but a better-used instrument could express even more.
> 
> Then comes Baker. To be completely honest, I have never really warmed to her voice. I find that there is often a slight harshness in her singing, even more apparent when she sings higher and at a greater volume (not on the same level as DFD, but the principle is the same). It gives me the feeling that her voice is never free, feeling which has been exacerbated by other performances that I have heard. Nonetheless, she has strengths. I quite appreciate the tone of her voice, at least more than DFD, and I can understand her appeal as a singer, but my vote will not go to her.
> 
> As for Ludwig, she had it all. A voice used to its highest potential, which enabled her to express her keen dramatic insight to its fullest. Her diction is clear, her legato is splendid and her voice is always full, spinning and blooming in all of its register. All of this is only possible when the voice is healthy and, necessarily, beautiful. She gets the meaning of the lied across, like the two others, but this time, no technical flaws comes in the way of my appreciation. She gets my vote.


It's funny how two people have different reactions and hear voices completely differently. I agree with all you say about Ludwig, but, you knew there was a but, somehow her singing here doesn't "speak" to me the way that both Baker and Fischer-Dieskau, and indeed Wunderlich, do. Somehow they seem to get to the very heart of the song and draw me into its deeper meaning in a way that Ludwig does not, much as I enjoy the beauty of her voice and her undeoubted musicality. For me, and I often feel this about her Lieder singing, there is something less specific about her art.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Difficult because neither Fischer-Dieskau nor Baker float my boat, as good as they are, so it has to go to Ludwig.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

DFD was an incomplete artist and I can't think of anything of his I enjoy so not him. Baker I like better but she's still not a favourite. Neither is Ludwig to be completely honest but she sounds quite lovely here so will give her my vote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am happy that people care strongly about these songs. Hopefully the next round will find someone to float your boat I am very ignorant about DFD but sometimes it is nice to have something to criticize LOL.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am happy that people care strongly about these songs. Hopefully the next round will find someone to float your boat I am very ignorant about DFD but sometimes it is nice to have something to criticize LOL.


I don't understand why he comes in for so much criticism these days. Ah well. Sue me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't understand why he comes in for so much criticism these days. Ah well. Sue me.


I told you I enjoyed him a lot in this contest and just like a lot of Sutherland isn't liked here but she has a lot of fans elsewhere, I know lots of people really are huge fans of DFD. Take heart. I am glad you included him.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I find Baker a little too fragile and Lidwig too matronly. DFK is just right for me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I find Baker a little too fragile and Lidwig too matronly. DFK is just right for me.


You just made TLondon's day


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't understand why [Fischer-Dieskau] comes in for so much criticism these days...


Like so many, he tends to be remembered by what he did in his late career, which can be very mannered.

We get to the point when we hear an artist we once liked singing in a way we don't like and it's like we say to ourselves, "What did we ever see in _them_? Enough of 'em". And in fact problems in their late performances point up problems that were there, in seedling stage, from the beginning. It's worse with FD because he was so highly praised for so long, and he recorded so very much that he came to seem inescapable. Yet if he seems inescapable it's because he recorded so much that was so very fine.

When it comes to Mainacht, it may not be a song he liked much. Among his enormous discography, he recorded it in 1957 with Karl Engel as part of an all-Brahms LP, in 1973 (this one) with Sawallisch as part of a Big-Box-o'-Brahms, and again between 1978 and 1982 with Barenboim as part of _another_ Big-Box-o'-Brahms. It doesn't seem to have figured in any of his live recitals, at least not ones that had turned up in time for the 2000 discography I'm looking at.

The 1973 performance shows an odd tendency to break the line into individual syllables, including the first phrase, in a song which would seem to me to need to be performed broadly. The 1957 recording has less stereo and more voice:


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I will skip voting this time, feel kind of lost in the song and what I want from it. 
You wrote somewhere, there is a version with the instrumental accompaniment, which will not be in the contest. Could you please point me to it ?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Not this song. Here is it with a choir with four part harmony. It is GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!! :


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Not this song. Here is it with a choir with four part harmony. It is GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!! :


I sent this to my sister and this was her reply:


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> I find Baker a little too fragile and Lidwig too matronly. DFK is just right for me.


Plus one...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I hate this song.

So, now I've got that off my chest I'm going to listen and I hope that my choice won't be biased by my dislike of the piece. Baker is very stylish, individual and doesn't put a foot wrong. I think I would like less restraint in a few places and she doesn't quite sell it to me. The end is superb on the other hand. In some rounds this could be a winner, but Ludwig and DFD are favourites of mine in German Lieder.

DFD starts off with somewhat more heft than Baker and that is welcome. His enunciation of the words has more meaning and his legato is perfection itself. The kind of intensity I want in this rep at the louder key moments is just what he provides. His ending is even more glorious than Baker's. He almost convinces me that I like this song!

Ludwig sounds somnolent and I'm bored again. As with Baker's this is very good and could win in a contest without DFD, I love the way she lets her voice fill the line at the louder moments, but DFD takes some beating.

DFD is the Callas of Lieder. This contest possibly wasn't fair.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I hate this song.
> 
> So, now I've got that off my chest I'm going to listen and I hope that my choice won't be biased by my dislike of the piece. Baker is very stylish, individual and doesn't put a foot wrong. I think I would like less restraint in a few places and she doesn't quite sell it to me. The end is superb on the other hand. In some rounds this could be a winner, but Ludwig and DFD are favourites of mine in German Lieder.
> 
> ...


For me Baker and Schwarzkopf would be the Callas of Lieder. DFD might be the Gobbi though.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> For me Baker and Schwarzkopf would be the Callas of Lieder. DFD might be the Gobbi though.


Love it! I generally prefer Ludwig over Baker in German Lieder, but Baker beats them all in French song.

It depends on the song, of course, but I expect I would prefer DFD's versions of most of German Lieder and much of other song repertoire over any other singer.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I hate this song.
> 
> So, now I've got that off my chest I'm going to listen and I hope that my choice won't be biased by my dislike of the piece. Baker is very stylish, individual and doesn't put a foot wrong. I think I would like less restraint in a few places and she doesn't quite sell it to me. The end is superb on the other hand. In some rounds this could be a winner, but Ludwig and DFD are favourites of mine in German Lieder.
> 
> ...


TC, you crack me up. Your attitude likely gave you straight A's in boring subjects. Thanks for playing. You may not have read of my disaster when I once played Callas in Armida for a 4 wheelin' outdoor enthusiast boytoy of mine who upon hearing Callas ascending to the heights said "Please Turn That Off"!!! 😮


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