# Slow Haydn/Mozart symphony movement(s) a in minor key



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

For some reason every classical (in the very strict sense) slow movement tends to be in major key, whether the "main key" is minor or major. I usually find slow tempo and a major key to be a pretty bad combination. It tends to results in music that's just way too relaxed and calm to be interesting. It's the kind of music people think about when they say that classical music is "relaxing", which is probably just an euphemism for "boring." So far no Mozart or Haydn slow movement has impressed me, perhaps because of this. So what Mozart/Haydn symphonies have their slow movements in minor key?


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

This seems a bit of a generalization to me. I don't really worry about what key a movement is in I just like it if it has good music in and fits into the overall piece. And whether something is relaxing or not is a matter of opinion, it's just a vague term for a certain feeling or mood. Of course much classical music may sound quite formal compared to modern popular music, the music is on the beat and not ahead of the beat for example. The arrangements may be balanced and conflict expressed but overcome. But that's just the style of the time, it is music from another time after all. Maybe looking at music is about looking beyond the style to a deeper level of feeling and understanding.

And aren't slow movements by their nature more 'relaxing' anyway because they are slower? They aren't meant to be just looked at on their own but in the context of the other livelier movements around it. Also if a movement is in a minor key is that any guarantee that someone will consider it less relaxing than something in a major key?


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

starry said:


> This seems a bit of a generalization to me.


Generalization? I said "usually" and "tends to result", so I think I made it pretty clear that I didn't mean that it is always the case.



> I don't really worry about what key a movement is in I just like it if it has good music in and fits into the overall piece.


Well it's not like I consciously decide to dislike a slow movement when I realize it is in major either. I just suspect that major key + slow tempo doesn't usually work for me because I have yet to like a single classical slow symphony movement and all I've heard are in a major key. I like some major-oriented slow movements by Mahler, but then again he was a late romantic composer so the major keys are proably twisted quite a lot by chromaticism.



> And whether something is relaxing or not is a matter of opinion, it's just a vague term for a certain feeling or mood.


To a degree yeah, but usually things like slow tempo, consonant harmony, quiet and stable dynamics, soft timbres (flute for example) are considered relaxing.



> Maybe looking at music is about looking beyond the style to a deeper level of feeling and understanding.


I'm not sure what you mean by this.



> And aren't slow movements by their nature more 'relaxing' anyway because they are slower? They aren't meant to be just looked at on their own but in the context of the other livelier movements around it.


Yeah they tend to be more relaxed than the other movements. But to me the combination of slow tempo and a major key tends to sound nevertheless TOO relaxed and carefree.



> Also if a movement is in a minor key is that any guarantee that someone will consider it less relaxing than something in a major key?


It's not a guarantee that I or anyone else would consider it less relaxing, but I want to give it a try. All else being equal though, major keys as they are considered "brighter", "happier" etc. would probably sound more relaxed in slow movements than minor keys which most people, including me, find darker or sadder. So slow minor key movements are likely to sound melancholic and distressing rather than relaxing.


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Mozart 26 is a great piece imo. His early 5th symphony has a minor key slow movement as well. Whether they are too relaxing or not is a matter of opinion. And why just restrict it to symphonies? How about his 23rd piano concerto.


----------



## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

I find quite a lot of Mozart's slower movements tedious with Symphony no. 39 being the worst offender (I feel terrible saying it as Mozart is my absolute favourite composer) and the same goes for Haydn. However the Andante movements to both Mozart's 'Prague' symphony and his 29th are subtle and beautiful and don't deserve to be labelled 'muzak', even if that's what they've come to be synonymous with.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

If we are going to include other works than symponies, Haydn's String Quartet Op. 20 No. 4 in D major has a beautiful adagio (in theme and variations form) in minor key. One of my favorite slow movements...


----------



## Efraim (Jun 19, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> If we are going to include other works than symponies, Haydn's String Quartet Op. 20 No. 4 in D major has a beautiful adagio (in theme and variations form) in minor key. One of my favorite slow movements...


And what about the 2d movement of SQ in C major? Isn't it fantastic? Haydn has several great slow movements. For example, do you know that of his symphony No 67?


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Efraim said:


> And what about the 2d movement of SQ in C major? Isn't it fantastic? Haydn has several great slow movements. For example, do you know that of his symphony No 67?


There's several string quartets in C major by Haydn, do you mean the Op. 20 one? Or Op. 76, also called "The Emperor" quartet?


----------



## Efraim (Jun 19, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> There's several string quartets in C major by Haydn, do you mean the Op. 20 one? Or Op. 76, also called "The Emperor" quartet?


Of course I meant the Opus you were speaking about.


----------



## Efraim (Jun 19, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> If we are going to include other works than symponies, Haydn's String Quartet Op. 20 No. 4 in D major has a beautiful adagio (in theme and variations form) in minor key. One of my favorite slow movements...





Dim7 said:


> There's several string quartets in C major by Haydn, do you mean the Op. 20 one? Or Op. 76, also called "The Emperor" quartet?





Efraim said:


> Of course I meant the Opus you were speaking about.


More about this: There is a C Major Qu in Op. 9, 33, 50, 54, 64 & 74, too. The slow movement of the one in Op. 54 deserves to be more famous than it really is, if only for its sentimental mood, even it is sentimental more in a baroque than a truly romantic sense.

Do you know the 2d movement of Symphony No. 76? It is one of the very rare pieces of Haydn that are frankly boring even for me, but it includes not just one but two middle sections (trios) in minor keys, which are nothing less frightening than some slow-movements-middle sections of Schubert. The whole boredom is worth getting through for the dumbfounding contrast between it and the trios, with seemingly no reason to mingle them together.


----------



## Jaime77 (Jun 29, 2009)

I prefer minor key slow movements. The slow movement of Piano Concerto NO. 23 yes, that is sublime. Such melancholy. Minor keys are more 'colourful' and spicy than major, I ten to find. Slow movements from the classical period don't interest me much otherwise. It is a pity but I just can't keep my interest in them. A similar Baroque slow movement is far more interesting to me because the rate of harmonic change is often faster in the Baroque music. Also some Baroque slow movements have a recitative or dance quality to them that keeps me awake


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Efraim said:


> Do you know the 2d movement of Symphony No. 76? It is one of the very rare pieces of Haydn that are frankly boring even for me, but it includes not just one but two middle sections (trios) in minor keys, which are nothing less frightening than some slow-movements-middle sections of Schubert. The whole boredom is worth getting through for the dumbfounding contrast between it and the trios, with seemingly no reason to mingle them together.


I think that's exactly what I thought of the slow movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 104. Perhaps that's the usual formula in Haydn's slow movements - interesting minor key section between two boring major ones


----------



## Vanahl (Jan 14, 2010)

*Mozart Slow Movements in Minor*

For me, the most moving slow movements in Mozart's orchestral works occur in piano concertos nos. 9,22, and, as mentioned, 23, and in the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364. But the slow movements in his symphonies have wonderful minor-key passages, e.g. the Jupiter Symphony.


----------



## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

Many of Haydn's introductions to the London Symphonies are minor, if that helps. And the slow movement of Symphony No. 70 is fascinating (D minor, Symphony in D Major). The finale is in a minor key as well, but it's a fast fugue. 103 has a minor slow movement. And the Andante with Variations in f minor is absolutely amazing.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The most profound and moving minor key slow movement in Mozart in my opinion, happens to be the c minor second movement andante found in the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola.


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Since the OP did ask (albeit a long time ago) for strong symphonic second movements, I'd recommend any from the Linz symphony onwards as they modulate to minor keys. Don't know how some could have trouble with any of those,...as what makes them exceptional is so obvious to me and most musicians with a pair of ears(and an IQ above that of a toaster).


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

For Haydn, the Adagio of Symphony No. 49 in F minor and that of Symphony No. 34 in D minor have to be mentioned. Haydn's quartets have some very nice movements in the minor key, I really like the one from Op. 54 No. 2. Same with Op. 20 No. 2. If I remember correctly, so does Op. 9 No. 2. Haydn's Sonata No. 19 in E minor has a great 1st movement. Also, the adagio of Sonata 38 in F Major is great. In Mozart, the Adagio of the Piano Concerto No. 23 is excellent (I still need to get to know more of Mozart's music).

For slow movements in the minor key, try also Haydn's Seven Last Words - the Introduzione, for example. The Intermezzo, scored for winds alone, is awesome and creepy. The Overture to the Winter from Haydn's Seasons is a great slow movement in the minor, imo.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> For some reason every classical (in the very strict sense) slow movement tends to be in major key, whether the "main key" is minor or major. I usually find slow tempo and a major key to be a pretty bad combination. It tends to results in music that's just way too relaxed and calm to be interesting. It's the kind of music people think about when they say that classical music is "relaxing", which is probably just an euphemism for "boring." So far no Mozart or Haydn slow movement has impressed me, perhaps because of this. So what Mozart/Haydn symphonies have their slow movements in minor key?


Listen to the slow movements from Haydn's symphonies 98 or 99, these are very good. I think one shouldn't mistake the major key for 'happy' - pieces in major can also sound 'sad' sometimes.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The most profound symphonic slow movement of Haydn is found in the symphony #98 in B flat Major. It was composed after Haydn found out about Mozart's death.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> The most profound symphonic slow movement of Haydn is found in the symphony #98 in B flat Major. It was composed after Haydn found out about Mozart's death.


Well, I'd say it's tied with the one from No. 99 - I think that one was composed after Haydn had found out that Marianne von Genzinger passed away.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I have to play #99 again.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I have to play #99 again.


That is a good decision .


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> That is a good decision .


It was on paper, but I can't find it. I really need to have a garage sale. I simply have too many CD's. The listening room will soon explode!!!


----------

