# Examples of Opera Composer (or Music) Inspiring Non-Opera Composer (Music)



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*[ 5:00 ]*





"one of the complaints about Bach was that his cantatas were too operatic. More than any other composer he introduced the Italian opera style into church music, something his predecessor Johann Kuhnau had always resisted." ("Bach and Opera", Bach Cantatas Website)"

I think that Wagner inspiring Mahler and Bruckner (ie. DLVDE) would be another good example. Also, the way Chopin's first scherzo starts reminds me of Don Giovanni, (but there is no definitive proof that Chopin was inspired by that particular opera in writing the scherzo's intro).

With the topic in mind, I also find this example to be pretty striking as well:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've long noticed that similarity in Norma and Chopin's Etude, but I thought I was the only one. (I also like the fact you link to the underrated Magaloff playing it.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Check this one out: *Puccini* vs. *Andrew Lloyd Webber*
Last act of *Boheme*;
Mimi: "Sono andate fingevo di dormire, *perche voi con te sola restare*"

*The Phantom of the Opera* singing "*The Point of No Return"*: "Past the point of no return, no backward glances, *the games we played till now are at an end"*

And this one: From Puccini's "*La Fanciulla del West*":

"Andrew Lloyd Webber borrowed the terribly catchy melody behind "*Quello che tacete*" in Act I for his hit musical* The Phantom of the Opera*. In Phantom, the same tune is behind "*Music of the Night*." The Puccini estate sued; the matter was settled out of court.)"

And lest we forget Ravel's "*Bolero*" and "*Memories*" from "*Cats*."

*Bolds are mine


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Check this one out: *Puccini* vs. *Andrew Lloyd Webber*
> Last act of *Boheme*;
> Mimi: "Sono andate fingevo di dormire, *perche voi con te sola restare*"
> 
> ...


And there are others.

I wonder how it feels to be a famous and well-paid composer, knowing that other people have made your greatest hits possible and that most of your audience won't know it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> And there are others.


The main theme for _Jesus Christ Superstar_ could have been lifted from Strauss's _Vier letzte Lieder_ and _I don't know how to love him_ starts with the main theme from the slow movement to Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto.

Has anyone else noticed the kinship between Bernstein's _There's a place for us_ from *West Side Story* and the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th piano concerto?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I can see it will quickly turn into general plagiarism, but OT states "Opera Composer (or Music) Inspiring Non-Opera Composer (Music)". I understand that Bolero inspired many composers and that, technically, Ravel can be counted as an opera composer too, but...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The most famous example (Chopin being inspired by Bellini) has already been noted. It is well known that Chopin's Nocturnes were insired by Bellini's long, lyrical melodies. Indeed Claudio Arrau, a great Chopin pianist, would get his piano students to listen to recordings of Callas singing Bellini to help them with their phrasing.

Another example would be Liszt, who wrote many works based on the music from operas by Wagner, Bellini, Verdi and Donizetti.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Bruckner obviously was inspired by Wagner (I believe this was mentioned before by the OP) and even included quotations into his Third Symphony, particularly from Die Walkure.

Non-classical examples would include ELP inspired by Mussorgsky (Pictures at an Exibition), Mike Oldfield inspired by Gioacchino Rossini (William Tell overture), Klaus Schulze inspired by Wagner (Timewind)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Azol said:


> Non-classical examples would include ELP inspired by Mussorgsky (Pictures at an Exibition), Mike Oldfield inspired by Gioacchino Rossini (William Tell overture), Klaus Schulze inspired by Wagner (Timewind)


And Tomita's re-arrangements of Debussy.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Has anyone else noticed the kinship between Bernstein's _There's a place for us_ from *West Side Story* and the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th piano concerto?


totally stole the plot from bellini and gounod operas too...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Has anyone else noticed the kinship between Bernstein's _There's a place for us_ from *West Side Story* and the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th piano concerto?


I have. And have you noticed the near-identity of the first phrase of _West Side Story_'s song "Tonight" with the opening of the Brahms F major Cello Sonata?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

As a general statement, I think we can safely say that film music as we've known it for the last century would hardly have existed without the late operas of Wagner, which are deeply cinematic both musically and theatrically and still await adequate treatment in the medium of film.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> As a general statement, I think we can safely say that film music as we've known it for the last century would hardly have existed without the late operas of Wagner, which are deeply cinematic both musically and theatrically and still await adequate treatment in the medium of film.


Yep, Max Steiner, after being complimented as the inventor of modern film music, had supposedly answered: "Nonsense. The idea originated with Richard Wagner. Listen to the incidental scoring behind the recitatives in his operas. If Wagner had lived in this century, he would have been the No. 1 film composer."

Also considering Wagner's influence on Korngold and seemingly even Williams, it's indeed undeniable that his innovations have had an immense impact on even our current film music.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon;1876383
Has anyone else noticed the kinship between Bernstein's [I said:


> There's a place for us[/I] from *West Side Story* and the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th piano concerto?


Bernstein's West Side Story: "There's a place for us, a time and place for us, HOLD MY HAND AND I'LL TAKE YOU THERE..."
Tchaikovsky's "ROMEO ET JULIETTE'S THEME


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

In this ("Das Wild in Fluren und Triften"), it seems as though Weber quotes his teacher (Missa sancti Ruperti)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love the Wizard of Oz and Wagnerian themes definitely influenced the repeated themes in the movie. The music of the witch was definitely influenced by Wagner.
I also see Wagner heavily influencing John Williams in the Star Wars movies both in the themes and the sound of the music.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

There are Franz Liszt Opera Paraphrases, *Rigoletto, Norma, etc. *


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I've long noticed that similarity in Norma and Chopin's Etude, but I thought I was the only one. (I also like the fact you link to the underrated Magaloff playing it.
> 
> N.


You're definitely not the only one.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> You're definitely not the only one.


definitely not. 


Bernamej said:


> the reason why Bellini was the first of my bel canto opera composers is because Chopin worshiped him and was influenced by him.





Seattleoperafan said:


> I also see Wagner heavily influencing John Williams in the Star Wars movies both in the themes and *the sound of the music*.


The Sound of Music? 0:57


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

symphony No.17 in E (iv): @0:33, you can hear glimpses of Mozart's Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen





Missa sti. Aloysii: Et incarnatus est (3/4 time, G minor), reminiscent of Mozart's Ach, ich fühl's (6/8 time, G minor)

Music for equal voices, which rather strangely, doesn't vigorously feature in Mozart until Die Zauberflöte, although he would presumably have had exposure to the practice since as early as the late 1760s:


hammeredklavier said:


> Missa sancti Nicolai Tolentini, MH109
> Missa sancti Aloysii, MH257
> Vesperae in F, MH294
> Anima nostra, MH452
> ...


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Purcell inspired other composers centuries after his death. First of all it's Britten. Lately Michael Nyman produced variety of music based on Purcell's, "The draughtman's contract" and others. 

The most of music for movies parasitize on Wagner's and Puccini's operas. Wagner's pieces are used more frequently, Liebestod, the ride of the Valkyries and wedding march with big breakaway. The rest is strongly influenced by both Wagner and Puccini'. 
"Adriana" is also like music for a film, where characters try to sing.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"The recitativo stromamento, an expression of deepest agitation and despair, was part of opera even in the seventeenth century; but it was Bach who introduced it to instrumental music. The Chromatic Fantasy is probably the first instrumental work consciously to attempt the portrayal of an emotional state—grief—from a first-person perspective. Vivaldi's concerto Grosso Mogul, opus 3, has a recitative section that is similar in this regard, and Bach himself set a version of it for organ as BWV 594, but this is at most a hint of what is to come."
<'Johann Sebastian Bach: Life and Work', By Martin Geck · 2006, pg. 489-490>

_"Pa-ven-ta!.. Pa-ven-ta!.. Pa-__ven—"_


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love the Wizard of Oz and Wagnerian themes definitely influenced the repeated themes in the movie. The music of the witch was definitely influenced by Wagner.
> I also see Wagner heavily influencing John Williams in the Star Wars movies both in the themes and the sound of the music.


I think those Wagnerian leitmotiv techniques inspired most film scores (maybe one of the few things I find I can agree with Adorno about)


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Well Wagner's Tristan may have been the most influential work of the 19th century, along with Beethoven's Third.


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## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

Does the soundtrack to A Clockwork Orange count?

Also Kurt Weill & Bertholt Brecht wrote both operas and musicals. The Three Penny Opera and The Rise and Fall of Mahogany (from which The Doors covered the song about whiskey bars).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Romeo und Julie, Act III: Funeral Song — Mozart Requiem
_"In an excess of enthusiasm for Georg Benda's melodramas, in 1778, Mozart wrote to his father that Benda was his favorite of the Lutheran kapellmeisters."_





Iphigénie en Tauride, Wq. 46: Je t'implore et je tremble, ô Déesse implacable!




Partita No. 1 in B-Flat Major, BWV 825: VI. Gigue



hammeredklavier said:


> _"Pa-ven-ta!.. Pa-ven-ta!.. Pa-__ven—"_






MH407/vi_ Rediscovering Michael Haydn: an interview with David Wyn Jones - "has a thorough competence of technique as well a real sense of theatre (in the broadest sense) that is reflected in Mozart’s music."_


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

HWV 17 “Son nata a Lagrimar”




Op.20 No.4, Hob. III:34/ii


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> HWV 17 “Son nata a Lagrimar”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look this one:


Gluck – Armide – Ouverture​​Michael Haydn – MH 187 IV​

bellissimo movement from Michael Haydn, probably I think with a little help of Gluck


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

look this one

what do you think?

killer motif from Myslivecek or from Mozart ?

( Mozart knew perfectly Abramo e isacco, he even takes more melodies for exemple in Die Zuberflote, 15 years later abramo e isacco composition )


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

CopistaSignorGomez said:


> look this one
> 
> what do you think?
> 
> ...


They were in contact a lot. I have read a novel, possibly fictional, about the platonic love relationship between Mozart and the wife of Myslivecek.


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> They were in contact a lot. I have read a novel, possibly fictional, about the platonic love relationship between Mozart and the wife of Myslivecek.


Myslivecek 's wife? well, Myslivecek never married, maybe one of his lovers, opera singers

and... @hammeredklavier 

what do you think about this?


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

Guisseppe Bono is the guy next to Salieri


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

CopistaSignorGomez said:


> Myslivecek 's wife? well, Myslivecek never married, maybe one of his lovers, opera singers


Mea culpa, I confused František Mysliveček with František Xaver Dušek, who had a wife Josefína Dušková.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

CopistaSignorGomez said:


> what do you think about this?


Sorry. Not very interesting examples for this thread , cause they just seem like phrase style typical for the period (as a lot of overtures at the time were taken from symphonic music) and there's nothing strikingly dramatic/vocal/operatic about the examples.
The "Ma dov'eri tu, stordito" from Paisiello's Barber has at the end a few succession of notes reminiscent of Mozart's 23rd concerto (iii) and his La Frascatana overture has a motif similar to that of 2 early symphonies of Haydn (M) and an early mass by Mozart, but I wouldn't want to post these cause I don't think they satisfy the criteria for good examples for this thread. I wouldn't want to post the example of the Naumann Dresden Amen and the Parsifal theme simply cause they're similar. I want us to move away from simply listing random "similarities", and to really examine things operatic.


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Sorry. Not very interesting examples for this thread , cause they just seem like phrase style typical for the period (as a lot of overtures at the time were taken from symphonic music) and there's nothing strikingly dramatic/vocal/operatic about the examples.
> The "Ma dov'eri tu, stordito" from Paisiello's Barber has at the end a few succession of notes reminiscent of Mozart's 23rd concerto (iii) and his La Frascatana overture has a motif similar to that of 2 early symphonies of Haydn (M) and an early mass by Mozart, but I wouldn't want to post these cause I don't think they satisfy the criteria for good examples for this thread. I wouldn't want to post the example of the Naumann Dresden Amen and the Parsifal theme simply cause they're similar. I want us to move away from simply listing random "similarities", and to really examine things operatic.


I understand your point, mostly in what you say about the thread topic.

I think the opposite: this quotes, most of the time using cliché motif of the style are not much interesting but many of them, are of maximun interests and give us a lot of information of the operistic lenguage of the era. For example, isolated example of quote of Abramo e Isacco could be neglected. But Mozart quote lot of melodies from this single oratorio, across the years in several compositions of all generes. Mozart dies as a very young person, for example, we don't know which music Mozart he listen to, I mean, with real examples. With rthis quotes also we identify Mozart taste. For example, did Mozart knew the concrete flaute quartet ( WB61, op 19 no 1 in C major ) from JC BACH ??? who knows, but... yes, because he quotes it in concerto 25, and so on. That'a a wonderfull information.

For example, we don't have information of simple things, for example Mozart knew JC BAch Opus 17 ??? We don't know.


In general, lot of consequences and information come from the analysis of this quotes. And there is no discussion here, because this quotes comes like a mathematical theorem, it's not just an opinion: it's a fact that this galant composers I love, where all quoting each others continually.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

CopistaSignorGomez said:


> There are many of this cliché motifs that composers share. Whole pieces like Michael Haydn Simphony 25 are full of this quotes. Michael Haydn even uses in sinphony 25/i , Mozart signature ( look, measures 11-12, it's Mozart favorite motif, he uses in many places starting with symphony 1).


I see what you mean. There are also "cliches" that only Mozart and Haydn seem to share. For example, in many of their instrumental final movements (@ 0:07-0:08)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwuVVjTEQYU&t=7s
you'll find this in K.334/iv, K.450/iii, and many of other Mozart and Haydn final movements (mostly in final movements; usually rondo final movements, but also sometimes in first movements).
Btw, there is an interesting read, "Mozartian Touches in Michael Haydn’s Dramatic Works", where Benjamin Perl discusses possible quotations of Don Giovanni in Haydn's Die Ährenleserin (a work I'm waiting for to be released in recording). Somewhere in the dissertation, he says (something for us to keep in mind)—

"Jan LaRue warns us against ascribing excessive significance to similarities of melody in classical works, as most share a common repertory of idiomatic turns and phrases that may appear many times in different contexts. He establishes two criteria by which resemblances between themes may be judged as significant or merely coincidental. The first criterion is statistical: if the similarity discovered is common not just to the two cases under discussion, but to many other themes. The second criterion is the degree of similarity: if it concerns only the melody, or harmony, rhythm and structure as well."


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)




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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> For example, in many of their instrumental final movements (@ 0:07-0:08)
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwuVVjTEQYU&t=7s
> you'll find this in K.334/iv, K.450/iii, and many of other Mozart and Haydn final movements (mostly in final movements; usually rondo final movements, but also sometimes in first movements).


bellisimo, very nice motif


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> I see what you mean. There are also "cliches" that only Mozart and Haydn seem to share. For example, in many of their instrumental final movements (@ 0:07-0:08)
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwuVVjTEQYU&t=7s
> you'll find this in K.334/iv, K.450/iii, and many of other Mozart and Haydn final movements (mostly in final movements; usually rondo final movements, but also sometimes in first movements).
> Btw, there is an interesting read, "Mozartian Touches in Michael Haydn’s Dramatic Works", where Benjamin Perl discusses possible quotations of Don Giovanni in Haydn's Die Ährenleserin (a work I'm waiting for to be released in recording). Somewhere in the dissertation, he says (something for us to keep in mind)—
> ...


Yes, absolutely. If I show an isolated example, but, this happen MASSIVELY, and when you see this again and again,...











( I would say that the are also son similrities considering the codas ).


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