# classical composer that were geneous but turn out to be major jerks (humorous post)



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

What are the classical that are consider major jerks and kind of pathetic a bit

People that were bigot, sexist and homophobic, people that has no filter and 
would constantly says stupid offensive crap, what are the worst offender in classical music

Are there composer you like the work of the man but you can't honnestly like them
since they were let's says unpleasant and unrepentant and ardent jerk...

Classical composer you dont want to advertise since you find them moronic but there music ockay
Who fit in this cureous category...

What classical composer was described has the worst most annoying unfriendly grumpy
mean like what we says in french a ''goujat'' sum it up.

Name classical composer you lisen but would like to slap them in the face for attitude ego and scorn in other words what are the uttermost hated classical composer, not for there skill but for what they stand for...

:tiphat:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Not really. I try to treat music on its own merits. My favourite composer Lully was an egotist who didn't care about trampling on others if it served his purposes - but I can be egotistical myself, so I suspend judgement.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Everybody has an off day - think Bach and Geyersbach - some have more than others. We're all human. I don't worry about the people so much as the music. The personal flaws get in the way. OK it's interesting on a National Enquirer sort of level but do we want to go *that* low? Far better to concentrate on the lovely sounds.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

deprofundis said:


> What are the classical that are consider major jerks and kind of pathetic a bit
> 
> People that were bigot, sexist and homophobic, people that has no filter and
> would constantly says stupid offensive crap, what are the worst offender in classical music
> ...


Louis Marchand.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Louis Marchand.


The depth of my ignorance, even to myself, is astounding. :lol:
I googled him, and found all manner of stories, none of which can be authenticated. He must be an *interesting *composer, whatever else!


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

In the old days that's what everyone was like, it's Western cultural tradition. People thought other races are inferior, that women have no place outside of the home, that homosexuality is an abomination, and that anything but a religious like of rectitude is to be frowned upon.

That's Western cultural tradition. The tradition under which civilization was built over hundreds of years. Like it, or not.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> The depth of my ignorance, even to myself, is astounding. :lol:
> He must be an *interesting *composer, whatever else!


I'm not convinced that his music is very interesting at the end of the day.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2016)

Ingélou said:


> The depth of my ignorance, even to myself, is astounding. :lol:
> I googled him, and found all manner of stories, none of which can be authenticated. He must be an *interesting *composer, whatever else!


Ton Koopman who recorded all the Bach Cantatas startet this project on the Erato label.The business in the music industry took a bad turn and mister Koopman got a fax that the project was cancelled.I couldn't be more impersonal!
Ton Koopman went on recording the cantatas with his house as security for the bank.
The new cd's on the new label was Marchand wich is a perfect translation of Koopman.:tiphat:


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Mahlerite555 said:


> In the old days that's what everyone was like, it's *Western cultural tradition*. People thought other races are inferior, that women have no place outside of the home, that homosexuality is an abomination, and that anything but a religious like of rectitude is to be frowned upon.
> 
> That's Western cultural tradition. The tradition under which civilization was built over hundreds of years. Like it, or not.


More accurately it's "human cultural tradition." In the majority of world there are still traditional views on women, racial differences, and homosexuality. The punishments are more severe in places outside of the Western world, in many cases - both historically and at present.

There has also been nothing to indicate that this has or will change for any extended period of time, but many Westerners do believe that whatever views they currently hold will stand for all time in direct contradiction to recorded human history. This is known as "hubris."


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Traverso said:


> Ton Koopman who recorded all the Bach Cantatas startet this project on the Erato label.The business in the music industry took a bad turn and mister Koopman got a fax that the project was cancelled.I couldn't be more impersonal!
> Ton Koopman went on recording the cantatas with his house as security for the bank.
> The new cd's on the new label was Marchand wich is a perfect translation of Koopman.:tiphat:


Curiouser and curiouser!


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

bz3 said:


> More accurately it's "human cultural tradition." In the majority of world there are still traditional views on women, racial differences, and homosexuality. The punishments are more severe in places outside of the Western world, in many cases - both historically and at present.
> 
> There has also been nothing to indicate that this has or will change for any extended period of time, but many Westerners do believe that whatever views they currently hold will stand for all time in direct contradiction to recorded human history. This is known as "hubris."


Amen to that sir.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm weary of this stuff. It's music, folks! There's no reason to expect that composers of performers should be any more "pure" than the rest of us, especially since our own purity resides mostly in our imagined correctness of values, of which we seem so proud. In short, a big yawn to this.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I'm weary of this stuff. It's music, folks! There's no reason to expect that composers of performers should be any more "pure" than the rest of us, especially since our own purity resides mostly in our imagined correctness of values, of which we seem so proud. In short, a big yawn to this.


I agree we shouldn't have false expectations.

The problem I have with this sort of discussion is understanding the reasons why someone is 'a jerk' or whatever other term. For example, Malcolm Arnold was a jerk amongst jerks - a personally abusive, aggressive and increasingly paranoid psychotic, a genuine physical threat to those around him at his worst. But he was a mentally ill alcoholic. so how far do we criticise the man and how far do we allow for the consequences of illness?
What about Percy Grainger? Fascinating composer, fine pianist, innovative experimenter with electro-mechanical music. But also a bigot, a fascist and a keen proponent of sado-masochism who regularly beat himself bloody and wanted to do so to others.
Stravinsky fans - what do you make of Igor's enthusiasm for Mussolini?
Conversely, how far is my love of Borodin's music affected by my knowledge that he was a thoroughly decent human being?

Nobody is perfect, and if we judge the music by what we know of the personalities involved, we get ourselves into ethically dodgy territory.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm sure there have been several threads like this one in the past on T-C, asking the same basic question about whether our judgement of a composer's music is affected by their politics or morals. 

As far As I recall, the vast majority of replies were that people are not interested in the gossipy details of composers' lives. That's certainly my opinion too. I judge the music entirely on the music, and don't worry in the slightest about other aspects of their lives.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Genoveva said:


> I'm sure there have been several threads like this one in the past on T-C, asking the same basic question about whether our judgement of a composer's music is affected by their politics or morals.
> 
> *As far As I recall, the vast majority of replies were that people are not interested in the gossipy details of composers' lives.* That's certainly my opinion too. I judge the music entirely on the music, and don't worry in the slightest about other aspects of their lives.


I remember some of those threads, and I too go along with the idea that it's the music that matters, not the person. It's the same with literature. I still love Donne's poems, even though I question his actions in marrying his daughter to an elderly bawd.

But I have to say, I'm still interested in the gossipy details! I like to think that's because, as an Eng. Lit. fan & ex-English teacher, I'm fascinated by characters & how they tick - but it could just be my base & prurient nature.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Ingélou said:


> I remember some of those threads, and I too go along with the idea that it's the music that matters, not the person. It's the same with literature. I still love Donne's poems, even though I question his actions in marrying his daughter to an elderly bawd.
> 
> But I have to say, I'm still interested in the gossipy details! I like to think that's because, as an Eng. Lit. fan & ex-English teacher, I'm fascinated by characters & how they tick - but it could just be my base & prurient nature.


As I am sure you appreciate, I didn't mean to suggest that I'm not interested in the gossipy details of composers' lives. My point was that I don't let any adverse aspects concern me when deciding whether I like that composer.

Among the most famous composers who have attracted occasional comment for their extra-mural activities, we have:

- Wagner who is usually the No 1 target for this kind of thing, whether implicitly or explicitly. To read some of the criticism of Wagner that I have seen on some previous T-C threads, it's as if some people think he was commissioned by Dr Goebbels to write propaganda music for the Third Reich (some apparently unaware that Wagner died some 14 years before Goebbels was even born). Apart from Wagner's well-known anti-semitism, some reports also suggest that Wagner was a cross-dresser, and enjoyed twice-daily enemas!

- Beethoven whose alcohol intake was very large, and finished up with severe liver problems that contributed towards his death. Who knows but some of Beethoven's best-loved works could have been written when he was drunk at the time. We shall never know.

- Brahms who was reportedly two-timing Clara Schumann and some other woman, and at one point fell head over heels for Clara Schumann's daughter, Julie.

- Schubert who, as we know, contracted syphilis, possibly because of gay associations, although this remains uncertain.

- Schumann who was away with the fairies in his later life.

- Gesualdo who murdered his wife and her lover.

- Bruckner who had a fascination for young girls and dead composers' skulls (with a special fondness for Beethoven's and Schubert's when their graves were opened to move the remains to another cemetery in Vienna.)

- Mozart who occasionally 'meowed' like a cat and had certain scatological fascinations the details of which are probably best left aside, since this is a family friendly forum. However, I gather that in those days in Vienna this kind of thing was not uncommon, and had much less of a social stigma than is normal these days.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

^^^^^ Very interesting post! :tiphat:
Yes, you're right - my basic point is the same as yours, that being interested in the private lives of composers, writers & artists doesn't mean that you put biography above aesthetics. 

Poor Schumann - it's such a sad story, of what happened after he developed a mental illness. The jury's out over whether it was bipolar disorder or mental deterioration after contracting syphilis.


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## Sante (Apr 3, 2017)

I cannot absolutely recall where and when I read _(possibly **gasp!** even during the Era Of No Internet Whatsoever)_ that Giuseppe Verdi, after growing wealthy started acting tyrannical with his domestic servants (once that he could afford hiring servants) forbidding them to ever leave his mansion, no matter the reason. Also he owned land and exploited ruthessly his farmers and peasant workers to the point that physicians started showing up there from all Europe to study on the field the effects of extreme malnourishment and starvation over human health. This should make of him, if true, the #1 jerk composer ever, by far.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mahlerite555 said:


> In the old days that's what everyone was like, it's Western cultural tradition. People thought other races are inferior, that women have no place outside of the home, that homosexuality is an abomination, and that anything but a religious like of rectitude is to be frowned upon.
> 
> That's Western cultural tradition. The tradition under which civilization was built over hundreds of years. Like it, or not.


There is such a thing as a moral compass (or recognising wrong when you see it) - at least I think there is - and, although, most/all people might have held the prejudices of their day, some did not forget their humanity while most did and a few went out of their way to do so. I have seen examples in real life of people in who went against their community (at enormous personal cost) to save the lives of people who they nevertheless regarded as deeply inferior because of their race. This heroism was not a product of education. They just seemed to know right from wrong more than most people. I guess this sort of thing is a common theme for Westerns (as in cowboy films) and stories of lynchings in the deep south of USA?

I suppose it is because this subject has been a common theme of threads is the reason why no-one has mentioned Wagner yet. His excessive antisemitism - announced, for example, in his campaign against Meyerbeer who had given him his first real break - was surely deeply obnoxious. His music is heavenly and I would not give it up but his behaviour does make me feel deeply uncomfortable about his music and there was no excuse for it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

KenOC said:


> I'm weary of this stuff. It's music, folks! There's no reason to expect that composers of performers should be any more "pure" than the rest of us, especially since our own purity resides mostly in our imagined correctness of values, of which we seem so proud. In short, a big yawn to this.


Yes. Of course. But there is an element of something similar to gluttony to consume the music of someone who acted in totally inhumane ways. We like the taste and don't ask too much about where the meat comes from. We all do it but it should surely make us feel a little uncomfortable? And when it comes to a living performer, say one who is guilty of predatory sexual behaviour using their position and power, I for one cannot bring myself to listen to - let alone buy - their music making, no matter how good it is.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Sorry: three separate posts in succession. But it is worth remembering that a composer from the past who held views that we (most of us) now feel are obnoxious can be used in the present as very powerful propaganda. Obviously, I am thinking of the Nazis' use of Wagner's powerful music to stir up the German people but there no doubt other examples that remind us that we need to be aware of the obnoxiousness of this sort of history even while we continue to enjoy the music.


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