# The Grand Karajan Review Thread



## MatthewWeflen

Well, I've gone and done it. During my quarantine, I've purchased all three DG Karajan "Decade" box sets, and I've been assiduously ripping the music as FLAC files to my music player, listening over my fancy headphones, scanning the cover art, and forming opinions.

This thread is intended to be a review of Karajan's DG output. I will post information about each recording, a high quality cover image, and a short review of each, with a final score of 1 to 10. Where applicable, I will compare Karajan's other recordings of the same work. Maybe if I have other renditions, I will compare it against them, though that is not my primary intent. I do not want this to inspire any urinating matches between fans of this or that conductor/orchestra, and I really want this to be more like a database.

So here is my first review.
*
1960's Disc 1
LP#138025 (18 500)*








*
Ein Heldenleben, op. 40
composed by R. Strauss*
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Michel Schwalbe, violin soloist
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 2-4 March 1959
Executive Producer: Hans Ritter
Recording Producer: Werner Wolf
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 45:40

*Review:*

Karajan's first recording with Deutsche Grammophon, this is a truly sensational beginning to a long, famous, and profitable relationship. This reading differs very little from Karajan's 70s and 80s recordings, with very similar tempii. The main differences are in aspects of the recording. This recording (in the box set OIBP remaster) is quite dynamic and has good bass. There is a small amount of analog tape hiss, but it is not terribly obtrusive and is easy enough to tune out, except during the quieter moments of the 5th movement. The orchestral sound is more unified and less spot-miked than the later recordings, especially the 80s. With that said, the percussion is not recessed, which is to my liking. The solo playing by Schwalbe is top shelf. Sonically, I'd have to give the nod to the 1970s recording. Overall, though, this is an extremely engaging recording with a very nice rendition of the piece.

*Rating: 9/10

Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*
1960's Disc 2
LP#138080 (18 610)*









*Hungarian Dances, WoO 1 (nos. 5,6,17,3,1,20,19,18)
composed by Johannes Brahms
Slavonic Dances (nos. 1,10,3,16,7)
composed by Antonin Dvorak*

Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4 September 1959
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Werner Wolf
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 43:51
*
Review:*

This rendition of various of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavic dances is very peppy. My kids love listening to this recording. I can say that the faster dances are among the peppiest tempo recordings I've heard of them. Sonically, this one is a bit less impressive than the previous Heldenleben. Analog tape noise is a bit more pronounced. With that said, the recording still has some nice dynamic range and bass response. Percussion is clear, and the triangle comes through nicely. Overall, very enjoyable, though it sounds its age to some degree.

*Rating: 8/10

Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 3
LP#138692 (18 692)
*








*Liszt: Mazeppa (S100), Hungarian Rhapsody No 5 (S395/5), Fantasy on Hungarian Folk Melodies (S 123), Hungarian Rhapsody No. 4 (S359/4)
*
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Shura Cherkassky, Piano (3)

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 12-13 December 1960 (2-3) and 16-17 February 1961 (1/4)
Executive Producers: Hans Ritter (2) Elsa Schiller (1/3), Otto Gerdes (4)
Recording Producers: Hans Ritter (3/4) Otto Gerdes (1)
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 57:41

*Review:
*
Wow, I don't know what they figured out between 1959 and late 1960, but the sound quality on these recordings is stellar. Bass is deep and resonant, analog hiss is very tame, and the overall quality of sound is exceptional. The renditions of these pieces are brisk and exciting with a lot of patriotic feeling. The cover image is aptly chosen, because for much of this run-time, what's on offer is thrilling. Slower passages, such as in the finale of Rhapsody No. 5, are really excellent. The piano on the Rhapsody on Hungaran Folk Melodies is terrific. All in all, a thrill ride from beginning to end. I find it interesting that Karajan and DG chose two Hungarian-themed sets, as well as Slavonic and, in the next release, French music. Whatever was behind it, they really came out swinging with numerous exciting recordings in a row.

*Rating: 10/10*

*Video: *


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 3
> LP#138692 (18 692)
> *
> View attachment 135564
> 
> 
> *Liszt: Mazeppa (S100), Hungarian Rhapsody No 5 (S395/5), Fantasy on Hungarian Folk Melodies (S 123), Hungarian Rhapsody No. 4 (S359/4)
> *
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Shura Cherkassky, Piano (3)
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 12-13 December 1960 (2-3) and 16-17 February 1961 (1/4)
> Executive Producers: Hans Ritter (2) Elsa Schiller (1/3), Otto Gerdes (4)
> Recording Producers: Hans Ritter (3/4) Otto Gerdes (1)
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 57:41
> 
> *Review:
> *
> Wow, I don't know what they figured out between 1959 and late 1960, but the sound quality on these recordings is stellar. Bass is deep and resonant, analog hiss is very tame, and the overall quality of sound is exceptional. The renditions of these pieces are brisk and exciting with a lot of patriotic feeling. The cover image is aptly chosen, because for much of this run-time, what's on offer is thrilling. Slower passages, such as in the finale of Rhapsody No. 5, are really excellent. The piano on the Rhapsody on Hungaran Folk melodies is terrific. All in all, a thrill ride from beginning to end. I find it interesting that Karajan and DG chose two Hungarian-themed sets, as well as Slavonic and, in the next release, French music. Whatever was behind it, they really came out swinging with numerous exciting recordings in a row.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10*
> 
> *Video: *


I have this - Cherkassky'splaying is fabulous!


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## The3Bs

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 3
> LP#138692 (18 692)
> *
> View attachment 135564
> 
> 
> *Liszt: Mazeppa (S100), Hungarian Rhapsody No 5 (S395/5), Fantasy on Hungarian Folk Melodies (S 123), Hungarian Rhapsody No. 4 (S359/4)
> *
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Shura Cherkassky, Piano (3)
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 12-13 December 1960 (2-3) and 16-17 February 1961 (1/4)
> Executive Producers: Hans Ritter (2) Elsa Schiller (1/3), Otto Gerdes (4)
> Recording Producers: Hans Ritter (3/4) Otto Gerdes (1)
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 57:41
> 
> *Review:
> *
> Wow, I don't know what they figured out between 1959 and late 1960, but the sound quality on these recordings is stellar. Bass is deep and resonant, analog hiss is very tame, and the overall quality of sound is exceptional. The renditions of these pieces are brisk and exciting with a lot of patriotic feeling. The cover image is aptly chosen, because for much of this run-time, what's on offer is thrilling. Slower passages, such as in the finale of Rhapsody No. 5, are really excellent. The piano on the Rhapsody on Hungaran Folk melodies is terrific. All in all, a thrill ride from beginning to end. I find it interesting that Karajan and DG chose two Hungarian-themed sets, as well as Slavonic and, in the next release, French music. Whatever was behind it, they really came out swinging with numerous exciting recordings in a row.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10*
> 
> *Video: *


:tiphat:

I am with DavidA... also have this "Liszt Orchestral works (DG 2 Cd edition)" and indeed sound and interpretation are fabulous!!


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## D Smith

Thanks Matthew for sharing your thoughts on these Karajan discs. So far I agree with you 100% and you've prompted me to pull out the Liszt and re-listen!


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## Knorf

Agreed. Thank you, MatthewWeflen, for creating this. It's an interesting thread, and I will be following your reviews with interest! I'm on record as being a fan of the 1959 _Ein Heldenleben_, but you're causing me to realize there are other recordings from that time, roughly, that I've not heard but would probably really enjoy.

I am also pleased the usual Karajan haters haven't shown up, yet. I imagine they will make an appearance at some point, but for now it's peaceful.


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## DavidA

Knorf said:


> Agreed. Thank you, MatthewWeflen, for creating this. It's an interesting thread, and I will be following your reviews with interest! I'm on record as being a fan of the 1959 _Ein Heldenleben_, but you're causing me to realize there are other recordings from that time, roughly, that I've not heard but would probably really enjoy.
> 
> I am also pleased the usual Karajan haters haven't shown up, yet. I imagine they will make an appearance at some point, but for now it's peaceful.


I have the later EMI Heldenleben. I don't know how it compares with the earlier one


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## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> Agreed. Thank you, MatthewWeflen, for creating this. It's an interesting thread, and I will be following your reviews with interest! I'm on record as being a fan of the 1959 _Ein Heldenleben_, but you're causing me to realize there are other recordings from that time, roughly, that I've not heard but would probably really enjoy.
> 
> I am also pleased the usual Karajan haters haven't shown up, yet. I imagine they will make an appearance at some point, but for now it's peaceful.


I will be refraining from claiming that any Karajan recordings are superior, so hopefully that will reduce the typical HvK bashing. I am planning only to mention alternative recordings as preferable to these.

I should have 2 more up tonight


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## Knorf

DavidA said:


> I have the later EMI Heldenleben. I don't know how it compares with the earlier one


They're pretty similar. Some prefer one, some the other. The EMI is better recorded, but it's not like the DG is bad. On the contrary! I think only Karajan/Strauss collectors really need both.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> I am also pleased the usual Karajan haters haven't shown up, yet. I imagine they will make an appearance at some point, but for now it's peaceful.


Karajan uber alles


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 4
LP#136 257 (19 257)
*









*Leo Delibes Coppelia Balet Suite
Frederic Chopin Les Sylphides
*Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 25-28 April 1961
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 55:58

*Review:
*
These pieces were unfamiliar to me. They are whimsical and bright, and very "pops" to my ears. They are well-played and well-recorded. The prelude to Coppelia (which is the highlight of the disc for me) has an almost Wagnerian feel to the horn intro and has some very nice bass parts, and then when things get more rollicking about halfway through, percussion and brass do not drown out any other parts. Analog hiss is well controlled overall. The Chopin was not terribly memorable to me, but I can't speak to whether alternative versions are better.

*Rating: 7/10*
*
Video: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 5
LP#138 767 (18 767)*









*Mozart Requiem K626
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Wilma Lipp, soprano
Hilde Rossel-Majdan, contralto
Anton Dermota, tenor
Walter Berry, bass
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Chorus Master: Reinhold Schmid*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 5-12 October 1961
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:07
*
Review:*
The Introitus is enveloping and amazing. Wilma Lipp is excellent and I think surpasses Anna Tomowa-Sintow in both her 70s and 80s recordings with HvK. The Dies Irae in this recording lacks just a little bit of punch for my tastes, and is surpassed by the 1980s recording with the VPO. It's not poorly played or sung by any means, and I think it comes down to recording. Overall, however, this is a top shelf rendition of the Requiem and doesn't fail to pull me in. This is a tough call between the 80s and 60s, and I think the 60s gets the edge because of the resonant bass and the vocalists (Walter Berry's and Anton Dermota's Tuba Mirum is also superlative).

*Rating: 9/10

Video: *


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 5
> LP#138 767 (18 767)*
> 
> View attachment 135627
> 
> 
> *Mozart Requiem K626
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Wilma Lipp, soprano
> Hilde Rossel-Majdan, contralto
> Anton Dermota, tenor
> Walter Berry, bass
> Wiener Singverein, chorus
> Chorus Master: Reinhold Schmid*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 5-12 October 1961
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 56:07
> *
> Review:*
> The Introitus is enveloping and amazing. Wilma Lipp is excellent and I think surpasses Anna Tomowa-Sintow in both her 70s and 80s recordings with HvK. The Dies Irae in this recording lacks just a little bit of punch for my tastes, and is surpassed by the 1980s recording with the VPO. It's not poorly played or sung by any means, and I think it comes down to recording. Overall, however, this is a top shelf rendition of the Requiem and doesn't fail to pull me in. This is a tough call between the 80s and 60s, and I think the 60s gets the edge because of the resonant bass and the vocalists (Walter Berry's and Anton Dermota's Tuba Mirum is also superlative).
> 
> *Rating: 9/10
> 
> Video: *


I had this n LP many years ago and had much pleasure out of listening to it


----------



## The3Bs

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 5
> LP#138 767 (18 767)*
> 
> View attachment 135627
> 
> 
> *Mozart Requiem K626
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Wilma Lipp, soprano
> Hilde Rossel-Majdan, contralto
> Anton Dermota, tenor
> Walter Berry, bass
> Wiener Singverein, chorus
> Chorus Master: Reinhold Schmid*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 5-12 October 1961
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 56:07
> *
> Review:*
> The Introitus is enveloping and amazing. Wilma Lipp is excellent and I think surpasses Anna Tomowa-Sintow in both her 70s and 80s recordings with HvK. The Dies Irae in this recording lacks just a little bit of punch for my tastes, and is surpassed by the 1980s recording with the VPO. It's not poorly played or sung by any means, and I think it comes down to recording. Overall, however, this is a top shelf rendition of the Requiem and doesn't fail to pull me in. This is a tough call between the 80s and 60s, and I think the 60s gets the edge because of the resonant bass and the vocalists (Walter Berry's and Anton Dermota's Tuba Mirum is also superlative).
> 
> *Rating: 9/10
> 
> Video: *


This is the LP and then CD I got to know this work!!! Thanks to my parents!!!
My taste has since moved in other directions, but I still keep a CD copy of it for reference...


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## Knorf

I admit Karajan's Mozart Requiem is one bit of his repertoire than does not suit my tastes. Certainly if you're looking for a monumental concept for that piece, Karajan's take will probably be one you'd like. And the lyrical, singing moments are undeniably gorgeous.

But I sold my copy long ago.


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## bharbeke

I've heard and enjoyed the Mozart Requiem. I will try the Liszt out. Thanks for starting this thread!


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> I admit Karajan's Mozart Requiem is one bit of his repertoire than does not suit my tastes. Certainly if you're looking for a monumental concept for that piece, Karajan's take will probably be one you'd like. And the lyrical, singing moments are undeniably gorgeous.
> 
> But I sold my copy long ago.


He did a great C minor mass with Barbara Henricks, but his Requiem is not one of my favorites. I prefer Bohm and even the idiosyncratic Bernstein in the "heavy" category for this work.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 6
LP#138 801 (18 801)









Beethoven Symphony 1 op.21
Beethoven Symphony 2 op.36
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27-28 December 1961 (Sym. 1), 30 December 1961 (Sym. 2)
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:21
*
Review:*
Symphony 1 starts off nice and briskly, tempo-wise. Both of the 70s and 80s renditions are faster, however. The brass near the end of the first movement (9:01 in the appended recording) are too recessed for my liking. The same goes for the tympani in most spots. I know there are some who disdain more aggressive spot miking, but personally, having heard these symphonies in person (with the CSO), I know that orchestra hall sound can allow for much more separated instrumental parts than this. Symphony 2 comes off a little better in this regard than 1. The overall sound quality is very good, with minimal hiss and some nice acoustics from the Church setting. It is easy to see why these recordings caused such a sensation upon their premiere - the sound quality is light years ahead of prior recordings that I've heard. For my money, on both symphonies, the order of preference would be 70s--->60s---->80s, but they're not all that different in terms of interpretation. The 70s sound is just superior. As an aside, the cover art is... unfortunately posed.
*Rating: 8/10*

*Video:*


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## Rogerx

Side question; are you going to do the Decca recordings also?


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 6
> LP#138 801 (18 801)
> 
> View attachment 135682
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony 1 op.21
> Beethoven Symphony 2 op.36
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27-28 December 1961 (Sym. 1), 30 December 1961 (Sym. 2)
> Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
> Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 56:21
> *
> Review:*
> Symphony 1 starts off nice and briskly, tempo-wise. Both of the 70s and 80s renditions are faster, however. The brass near the end of the first movement (9:01 in the appended recording) are too recessed for my liking. The same goes for the tympani in most spots. I know there are some who disdain more aggressive spot miking, but personally, having heard these symphonies in person (with the CSO), I know that orchestra hall sound can allow for much more separated instrumental parts than this. Symphony 2 comes off a little better in this regard than 1. The overall sound quality is very good, with minimal hiss and some nice acoustics from the Church setting. It is easy to see why these recordings caused such a sensation upon their premiere - the sound quality is light years ahead of prior recordings that I've heard. For my money, on both symphonies, the order of preverence would be 70s--->60s---->80s, but they're not all that different in terms of interpretation. The 70s sound is just superior. As an aside, the cover art is... unfortunately posed.
> *Rating: 8/10*
> 
> *Video:*


I learned these from Toscanini and Karajan's right in that dynamic tradition only far better recorded


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## MatthewWeflen

Rogerx said:


> Side question; are you going to do the Decca recordings also?


I don't own the Decca box set (nor do I own the Warner Classics/Philharmonia/EMI set) and wasn't planning on purchasing them. I do own bits here and there (such as the Decca Planets and Also Sprach, as well as the EMI Schubert, Sibelius and 4 Seasons). But I think the 3 DG boxes may take me the rest of my natural life


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## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> I learned these from Toscanini and Karajan's right in that dynamic tradition only far better recorded


Yeah, the Toscanini NBC cycle is a real shame. The readings are wonderful, the recordings were not.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 7
LP#138 802 (18 802)
*








*Beethoven Symphony 3 "Eroica" op.55
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 11-15 November 1962 
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 50:06

*Review:
*This is Karajan's slowest Eroica overall (except for the Scherzo, which is his fastest). Both the 70s and 80s are brisker. Much of the comments about 1&2 apply here. Tympani and Brass sometimes have a recessed quality that the later recordings remedy. But of course there is plenty of drama here, and overall the recording is excellent. I think, because the tympani and brass are closer miked, they deliver more impactful emotional climaxes in the '77 recording. But there is not much to fault in this reading overall. It oozes gravitas when it needs to, and it dances when it needs to as well. Side note: I feel a bit cheated by not getting unique cover art for each disc of this cycle.
*Rating: 9/10*

*Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 8
LP#138 803 (18 803)









Beethoven Symphony 4 op.60
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 14 March 1962
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 31:07

*Review:*
Unlike the other readings in this cycle, this 4th is in fact Karajan's fastest. I'm surprised that DG released such a short LP with no additional material such as overtures. It is very engaging, bright, and full of pep. The sound quality is very good, with only minor tape hiss. The texture of the strings is very pleasant. The percussion is a bit more forward compared to the 3rd. If this were the only 4th someone owned, they would be doing just fine.

*Rating: 8/10*
*
Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 9
LP#138 804 (18 804)*









*Beethoven Symphony 5 op.67
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 9-12 March 1962
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 31:25
*
Review:*
Another short LP. But what an LP! The 1977 is a shade faster, but not by more than a few seconds per movement. I love the tympani in the first, the way it stands forward in the mix and punctuates the drama. The recording has a lot of nice dynamic range from soft to loud. The brass resonates beautifully in the church. The tympani recedes a bit in the 2nd movement, which is a shame, but it comes roaring back in the 4th. The strings and brass are well balanced and neither ever dominates the other, even in loud passages. The bass and cellos also resonate wonderfully. I think I might now prefer this 5th to Karajan's 1977, which is a bit of a surprise to me. All in all, it's easy to see why this recording is held in such high esteem. This is Olympian Beethoven played with fire and elan.

*Rating: 10/10

Video: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 10
LP#138 805 (18 805)*








*
Beethoven Symphony 6 op.68 "Pastorale"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 13-15 February 1962
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 35:48
*
Review:*
Long considered the red-headed stepchild of the 62 cycle (and perhaps all of HvK's Beethoven cycles), I can see where the criticism comes from. The first movement seems a bit too driven. It is indeed his fastest. Things slow down in the second and achieve a greater lyricism. The 3rd and 4th movements, before and during the storm, are well played, and the storm contains plenty of drama. All told, though, the 1977 is superior in every way to this reading - both taking its time more at the beginning, containing a more rollicking storm, and coming off less stentorian and more beautiful in the 5th movement. Analog hiss is present throughout this one. The 77 is far better sonically.

*Rating: 7/10

Video: *


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 8
> LP#138 803 (18 803)
> 
> View attachment 135741
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony 4 op.60
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 14 March 1962
> Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
> Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 31:07
> 
> *Review:*
> Unlike the other readings in this cycle, this 4th is in fact Karajan's fastest. I'm surprised that DG released such a short LP with no additional material such as overtures. It is very engaging, bright, and full of pep. The sound quality is very good, with only minor tape hiss. The texture of the strings is very pleasant. The percussion is a bit more forward compared to the 3rd. If this were the only 4th someone owned, they would be doing just fine.
> 
> *Rating: 8/10*
> *
> Video:*


My top recommendation for this symphony, aside from historical live versions from Furtwängler and Klemperer. I also like the '77, but this one is more agile.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My top recommendation for this symphony, aside from historical live versions from Furtwängler and Klemperer. I also like the '77, but this one is more agile.


You should also try Karajan's 1955 with the Philarmonia which might be the best of the lot


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 6
> LP#138 801 (18 801)
> 
> View attachment 135682
> 
> 
> As an aside, the cover art is... unfortunately posed.
> 
> *


*

On the topic of the cover art, I think a slight twist to HvK's wrist turns it into a conductor-style position, and saves it from complete disaster. Close, though. Phew!*


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## DavidA

Eclectic Al said:


> On the topic of the cover art, I think a slight twist to HvK's wrist turns it into a conductor-style position, and saves it from complete disaster. Close, though. Phew!


As a boy I used to wear my watch the way round HvK did on his photographs - till I found it was more likely to break that way! :lol:


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## The3Bs

MatthewWeflen said:


> Yeah, the Toscanini NBC cycle is a real shame. The readings are wonderful, the recordings were not.


The Toscanini NBC cycle is how I got to learn the symphonies... even with below standard sound...and still go back to them every so often...

As you mention the reading are wonderful... I would not part with them just because of sound quality..

Of course Karajan's first DG cycle is also amongst those close to my heart (with Bernstein) from those 60's black and white TV broadcasts...


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 11
LP#138 806 (18 806)*








*Beethoven Symphony 7 op.92
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 13-14 March 1962
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 33:55
*
Review: *This is a brisk and exciting reading of the 7th. The sound quality is very good and there is practically no tape hiss. The occasional page turn is audible, which I find charming. Occasionally, the acoustics of the church seem to generate a bit too much reverb and crowd out some sounds. The 2nd movement has a wonderful pulse to it, and feels inevitable but never boring. As far as tempii go, this is almost identical to the second with the 77. The 1980s recording is actually the fastest of the three but only by ten seconds here or there. As far as sound quality goes, there is a pretty linear increase from 1962 to 1977 to 1980s. I actually would recommend the 80s recording highest of the three, because the textures are clearer and the reverb is tamed. The readings are fundamentally identical, so it's just down to sound quality here.
*
Rating: 8/10

Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 12
LP#138 807-8 (18 807-8)*







*
Beethoven Symphony 9 op.125
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 8-9/12/13 November 1962
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 42:53

*Review: *If there is no other evidence for the superiority of CD over LP, breaking the 9th into two releases is it. It looks from the release number that the two platters were at least released concurrently. Anyway, tape hiss is quite strong at the beginning piano passage of the first movement, but once things start cranking in earnest it recedes in the perception. There is little difference in the tempii between Karajan's 3 DG renditions, with the exception of the 2nd movement, in which the 77 shaves off nearly a minute and the 80s about 30 seconds. But they're all driven and excellent in the fast movements, and serenely beauteous in the 3rd. The ability of the BPO and Karajan to create a sound world in the 3rd represents the best of what they can do together. The way the cellos resonate and undergird the lilting strings and woodwinds is spine-tingling. I can't really recommend one reading over the other, it just comes down to tape hiss and how much you dislike it. All three are titanic and beautiful accounts.

*Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 12
LP#138 807-8 (18 807-8)*







*
Beethoven Symphony 9 op.125 (movements 4-)
Beethoven Symphony 8, op. 93
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Hilde Rossel-Majdan, contralto
Waldemar Kmentt, tenor
Walter Berry, bass
Wiener Singverein *

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 8-9/12/13 November 1962; 23 January 1962 (8th)
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 50:30

*Review:* Here we have the last movements of the 9th. The 4th movement is beautifully played. The 5th has some first rate singing among the soloists. Their diction is excellent and clear, and their tones are wonderful. The orchestra plays like they're possessed and possibly their pants are on fire - and I mean this in a good way. All in all, excellent. I think the acoustics favor the soloists in the 62, while the orchestra and sound quality are a bit better in the 77. If I were rating just this, this would be a 10/10, easily.

But I'm not. The 8th is also included here. The recorded sound is a bit flabby in the reverb, and things are a bit mushy as a result. Only the 2nd movement, which is of course much leaner instrumentally, avoids this. The 77 and the 80s recordings are both far clearer texturally, and are both about twenty seconds shorter in the first movement, in which the real "punk rock" really comes through. All in all, a rather disappointing technical effort that fails to capture the fun of the 8th.

And so, averaging between the two, we get...
*Rating:* 8/10

*Video: *


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

That’s my top-rated 8th after Furtwängler’s live mono 1953 DG recording. In fact you can get Karajan’s 60s 4th and 8th coupled together in DG’s Best 1000 series, which to me are not only the picks of the cycle but Karajan’s best Beethoven.

My ideal “Frankenstein” Beethoven stereo set consists of:

1 & 2 - Jochum (DG)
3 - Klemperer (EMI)
4 & 8 - Karajan (1962, DG)
5 & 7 - Kleiber (DG)
6 - Walter (Sony)
9 - Fricsay (DG)


----------



## MatthewWeflen

After appraising the 62 cycle in its entirety, the only real disappointments for me are the 1st, which lacks the sort of Haydnesque lilt I enjoy, and the 8th, which drowns in echoes a bit. The 6th is average. All of the others are top rate, though I prefer both of his later 3rds. The 5th and 9th stand toe-to-toe easily against the best I've heard.

I would not attempt a Frankencycle, because each conductor/orchestra combo is such an individual sound world. Sometimes I want Karajan-Beethoven. Sometimes Gardiner-Beethoven, Etc.

But if I were constructing a Franken-Karajan-Cycle, it would be as follows (I have bolded the ones with clear standouts, others are very close):
*
1 -77*
2 -77
*3 -77*
4 -77
5 -62 or 77
6 -77
*7 -83*
8 -83
9 -62 or 77


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> After appraising the 62 cycle in its entirety, the only real disappointments for me are the 1st, which lacks the sort of Haydnesque lilt I enjoy, and the 8th, which drowns in echoes a bit. The 6th is average. All of the others are top rate, though I prefer both of his later 3rds. The 5th and 9th stand toe-to-toe easily against the best I've heard.
> 
> I would not attempt a Frankencycle, because each conductor/orchestra combo is such an individual sound world. Sometimes I want Karajan-Beethoven. Sometimes Gardiner-Beethoven, Etc.
> 
> But if I were constructing a Franken-Karajan-Cycle, it would be as follows (I have bolded the ones with clear standouts, others are very close):
> *
> 1 -77*
> 2 -77
> *3 -77*
> 4 -77
> 5 -62 or 77
> 6 -77
> *7 -83*
> 8 -83
> 9 -62 or 77


Mine would've

1and 2 - 62

3 - 83

4 - 77

5 - 62 or 77

6 - 55 or 77

7 - 62

8 - 62

9 - 77

Needless to say all the cycles are good but some performances are just that bit better than others. I think the 83 cycle was pooh-poohed a bit because it didn't really add too much to the others. Also the recording quality of the original discs was not that good but it is certainly much better in the remastering in the Karajan gold series


----------



## Knorf

I'm one of those who poo-pooed the 80s set. I'm starting to think I might have been wrong about that.


----------



## The3Bs

Brahmsianhorn said:


> That's my top-rated 8th after Furtwängler's live mono 1953 DG recording. In fact you can get Karajan's 60s 4th and 8th coupled together in DG's Best 1000 series, which to me are not only the picks of the cycle but Karajan's best Beethoven.
> 
> My ideal "Frankenstein" Beethoven stereo set consists of:
> 
> 1 & 2 - Jochum (DG)
> 3 - Klemperer (EMI)
> 4 & 8 - Karajan (1962, DG)
> 5 & 7 - Kleiber (DG)
> 6 - Walter (Sony)
> 9 - Fricsay (DG)


Uau! Finally I see someone rating Klemperer's Eroica so high!!! It is one of my desert island discs...


----------



## The3Bs

I have for a long time concentrated only on the 62 and 77 cycles... also due to bad experience with the 83 (sound quality wise)...
It might be about time to revisit it with the new remasterings.. Thank you DavidA to point that out...


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> That's my top-rated 8th after Furtwängler's live mono 1953 DG recording. In fact you can get Karajan's 60s 4th and 8th coupled together in DG's Best 1000 series, which to me are not only the picks of the cycle but Karajan's best Beethoven.
> 
> My ideal "Frankenstein" Beethoven stereo set consists of:
> 
> 1 & 2 - Jochum (DG)
> 3 - Klemperer (EMI)
> 4 & 8 - Karajan (1962, DG)
> 5 & 7 - Kleiber (DG)
> 6 - Walter (Sony)
> 9 - Fricsay (DG)


Klemperer's EMI isa non-starter despite a superb funeral march as the opening movement is anything but allegro con brio. It's far too slow.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Mine would've
> 
> 1and 2 - 62
> 
> 3 - 83
> 
> 4 - 77
> 
> 5 - 62 or 77
> 
> 6 - 55 or 77
> 
> 7 - 62
> 
> 8 - 62
> 
> 9 - 77
> 
> Needless to say all the cycles are good but some performances are just that bit better than others. I think the 83 cycle was pooh-poohed a bit because it didn't really add too much to the others. Also the recording quality of the original discs was not that good but it is certainly much better in the remastering in the Karajan gold series


Agreed with all except the 4th, where I prefer the agility of the '62. But the '77 is also one of my favorites.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Klemperer's EMI isa non-starter despite a superb funeral march as the opening movement is anything but allegro con brio. It's far too slow.


It is justly famous, one of the most powerful accounts I know


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It is justly famous, one of the most powerful accounts I know


Fanous but far too slow in the first movement. It was famous when Beethoven was played a lot slower than it is now. Great funeral march though


----------



## CnC Bartok

Knorf said:


> I'm one of those who poo-pooed the 80s set. I'm starting to think I might have been wrong about that.


Now they have been remastered, and any synthetic, in-your-face balance issues sorted out, the early-mid 80s set is a long way off bad. Definitely NOT worth consigning to the dustbin of recording history, but they don't really say much more about Beethoven than his earlier cycles (especially important for me is the 1970s set, which I personally rate very highly indeed...)


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Fanous but far too slow in the first movement. It was famous when Beethoven was played a lot slower than it is now. Great funeral march though


I could care less how fast or slow it is played as long as it is good music. One of my favorite accounts is Toscanini's 1939 version which is very fast. But the key to Klemperer is the power which absolutely communicates _Eroica_. For example, the first movement hammer blow dissonant chords followed by the retreating low strings is devastating. Thank goodness I do not apply stringent criteria to my appreciation of art.


----------



## Knorf

It is very interesting to me the degree to which Karajan recordings from the digital era are being re-evaluated and appreciated. I mean, there were always a few almost everybody thought were good right off, such as _Eine Alpensinfonie_. But I seem to remember many of those digital Karajan recordings being dismissed as superfluous, which is understandable to an extent. But I may have been unduly persuaded by those criticisms.

There's not enough time to listen to everything! More's the pity.



Brahmsianhorn said:


> Thank goodness I do not apply stringent criteria to my appreciation of art.


 
This last sentence: such an unnecessary, passive-aggressive, self-congratulatory swipe. Do you really not see it?


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I could care less how fast or slow it is played as long as it is good music. One of my favorite accounts is Toscanini's 1939 version which is very fast. But the key to Klemperer is the power which absolutely communicates _Eroica_. For example, the first movement hammer blow dissonant chords followed by the retreating low strings is devastating. Thank goodness* I do not apply stringent criteria to my appreciation of art*.


We do realise that!


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> This last sentence: such an unnecessary, passive-aggressive, self-congratulatory swipe. Do you really not see it?


You see it that way because you apply it through your filter of what you would mean if you wrote those words. This is why you constantly misread me. You see everything from a personal standpoint, all about ego. My passion is for the music. From my standpoint I meant it as an invitation to be more broad-minded. It offends me when great recordings are dismissed out of hand for stringent reasons.


----------



## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It offends me when great recordings are dismissed out of hand for stringent reasons.


Pot, kettle, black.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

All right, gentlemen.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 14
LP#138 822 (18 822)
*








*Tchaikovsky, Piano Concerto No. 1, op.23
Wiener Symphoniker, orchestra
Sviatoslav Richter, piano
*
Recorded at Musikvereinssaal, Vienna, 24-26 September 1962 
Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 36:18

*Review: *It is nigh on impossible to find any reason to fault this recording. The sound quality is resonant and full of dynamic range. Analog hiss is not noticeable. The Wiener Symphoniker provides stellar orchestral accompaniment to Sviatoslav Richter's virtuosic piano playing. And the piece itself is unfailingly entertaining in the high romantic mode. If anyone would like to listen to the appended video and offer criticism, I would like to hear it. But I don't think I'll be agreeing. I guess the cover kind of stinks. I don't know what the DG graphic design department was thinking posting such a dark photo that lacked bright contrast. There are much better attempts at this effect down the road for DG's releases.

*Rating: 10/10

Video: 
*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 15
LP#138 920 (18 920)*









*Stravinsky, Le Sacre du Printemps
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 17-19 October 1963 and 10 February 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 34:46

*Review:* So, see here. Stravinsky is not generally in my listening wheelhouse, stylistically. I am not equipped to evaluate this version against others. I am also well aware that this is the infamous 'tempo di hoochie coochie' version that Stravinsky criticized. Well, composers aren't always the final word on how works are played (a generation of dirge-like Beethoven will attest to that), and I can only judge this on its sonic qualities and how convincing I find it. And, well, the sonic qualities are top shelf. The playing of the BPO is quite good, and the dynamic range here goes from quiet to terrifying. The percussion is superb, which seems integral to a piece such as this. Analog hiss is absent entirely. I even like the cover (I'm a fan of the more abstract art-centered entries into the catalog). Ergo...

*Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> Well, composers aren't always the final word on how works are played (a generation of dirge-like Beethoven will attest to that


Oh wow, I didn't realize you knew Beethoven. Please share some anecdotes when you find the time.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Oh wow, I didn't realize you knew Beethoven. Please share some anecdotes when you find the time.


He left me some metronome markings. While I have some reason to suspect his metronome was a bit on the peppy side, there is no squaring them with some of the choices made by some 20th century conductors.

Please note, I also said explicitly that composers (and for that matter, critics) are by no means the final arbiters of performances. If you like a dirge for your 5th, more power to you. It takes all kinds to make the world go round, and I'm genuinely glad that recordings from the likes of Klemperer, Bernstein, and Celibidache exist.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> It takes all kinds to make the world go round, and I'm genuinely glad that recordings from the likes of Klemperer, Bernstein, and Celibidache exist.


Inferior and antithetical to the wishes of the composer as they are. I'm glad there are conductors nowadays who truly understand Beethoven.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 16
LP#138 921 (18 921)*









*Tchaikovsky, Symphony no. 6 "Pathetique," op. 74
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 11-12 February 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 45:15

*Review:* Tchaikovsky was a composer of immensely likeable music, filled with drama and emotion, that some have dismissed as unserious or mawkish. Given some of the common criticisms of Karajan, perhaps this is a marriage made in heaven. This rendition of the 6th is unstoppable. The sonic quality is stupendous, but never overwhelms either the space or the recording equipment. The brass is bristling, the strings are sumptuous, the percussion is booming, and it all remains in balance. The tempii here are brisker than the 1970's recording with the BPO and the 80's recording with the VPO, but the overall emphasis remains the same in all three, and no one recording really trumps the others as far as a recommendation goes. They're all grand slams.

*Rating: 10/10*

*Video: 
*


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Inferior and antithetical to the wishes of the composer as they are. I'm glad there are conductors nowadays who truly understand Beethoven.


Bernstein's first Eroica had a very fast first movement a la Beethoven which Surely rules it out for


----------



## Merl

Nice reviews, Matt. I'm enjoying reading these. It's nice not to be the reviewer sometimes. Btw,you nailed some of those reviews of the LvB 60s cycle although personally I've always like his red-haired' Pastoral a lot- it's a darker, bad mood reading (there's someone else I reviewed recently who did the same with it and it sounded similar). He never did like the 6th very much though. As for Karajan's 80s set yeah DavidA is right. I'd say to anyone ignore the original CDs and go away and listen to the Karajan Gold remasters and you'll realise it really was not the 'bad' set it's painted to be - far from it. The 3rd, 7th and 9th scrub up really, really well, in fact. Keep up the good work.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Merl said:


> Nice reviews, Matt. I'm enjoying reading these. It's nice not to be the reviewer sometimes. Btw,you nailed some of those reviews of the LvB 60s cycle although personally I've always like his red-haired' Pastoral a lot- it's a darker, bad mood reading (there's someone else I reviewed recently who did the same with it and it sounded similar). He never did like the 6th very much though. As for Karajan's 80s set yeah DavidA is right. I'd say to anyone ignore the original CDs and go away and listen to the Karajan Gold remasters and you'll realise it really was not the 'bad' set it's painted to be - far from it. The 3rd, 7th and 9th scrub up really, really well, in fact. Keep up the good work.


I'm enjoying methodically going through the set, and lord knows I've got time at home. The only real issue is that I'm in a real "cream of the crop" phase of the set (coming up are Dvorak 9, the 60s Brahms cycle, and some Sibelius). After Stravinsky (which I enjoyed, regardless of its apparent idiosyncrasy), I won't be getting to anything particularly contentious until disc 26 (Berlioz) and 29-31 (Bach Brandenburgs and Orchestral Suites). The level of consistent quality is really pretty amazing, here. It's easy to see why he sold so many records in this decade.

The 80s set has many more ups and downs, such as the turgid Planets and Schopfung. But then it has some truly great stretches, like the Haydn Paris and London sequences, the live Mahler 9, and of course the Bruckner.


----------



## DavidA

Merl said:


> Nice reviews, Matt. I'm enjoying reading these. It's nice not to be the reviewer sometimes. Btw,you nailed some of those reviews of the LvB 60s cycle although personally I've always like his red-haired' Pastoral a lot- it's a darker, bad mood reading (there's someone else I reviewed recently who did the same with it and it sounded similar). He never did like the 6th very much though. As for Karajan's 80s set yeah DavidA is right. I'd say to anyone ignore the original CDs and go away and listen to the Karajan Gold remasters and you'll realise it really was not the 'bad' set it's painted to be - far from it. The 3rd, 7th and 9th scrub up really, really well, in fact. Keep up the good work.


I think if it has been Jarajan's first set And been issues in the remastered form it might have had glowing reviews. As it was it didn't add too much to what he'd already done


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 17
LP#138 922 (18 922)
*








*Dvorak, Symphony no. 9 "From the New World" op. 95
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4-5 March 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 41:51

*Review: *The Karajan/BPO machine is purring like the engine of a Porsche at this point. The third movement is really lovely, with resonant cellos and basses, but nice renditions also of the tympani and triangle. The fourth is driven and exciting and has some really nice brass counterpoints in the first quarter violin runs. I think I may like the 1980s recording with the VPO just a tad more because of a slightly more beautiful "Going Home" Largo passage in the second, and some slightly more forward tympani, but the differences are truly minor. This is a totally convincing reading that is beautifully recorded, and would do for anyone as their go-to rendition on disc. I also LOVE the cover. One of the two or three best of the decade for DG's HVK discs.

*Rating: 9/10

Video: *


----------



## Knorf

I agree about Karajan's Tchaikovsky. He did great with that repertoire, the symphonies for sure, but also the Overtures, such as _Marche slave_. I've heard sundry caviling about Karajan's performances supposedly not sounding sufficiently 'Russian,' but that's a sophism in my view.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

1960's Disc 18
LP#138 923 (18 923)









*Debussy, La Mer 
Ravel, Daphnis et Chloe, Suite No. 2
Debussy, Prelude to an Afternoon of a Faun
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Karlheinz Zoller, flute (Prelude)
*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 9-11 March 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 47:58

*Review:* Debussy's La Mer is one of the seminal works of modernism, apparently. I've always preferred his (roughly) contemporary composer, Strauss. But that's a matter of personal taste. La Mer has certainly got atmosphere, and the BPO under Karajan give it a sensual, involving take. I can find nothing to fault in the recording technically, as it is hiss free and wonderfully dynamic. The Ravel is quite dreamy throughout, until its rousing finale. The woodwinds are particularly nice, as is the percussion. The flute, well played by Zoller, is of course the star of the Faun, and it is complemented by lush strings. All in all, this platter is not my own personal cup of tea, but I can't fault the ravishing sonic beauty on offer. Side note, I quite like the cover. Another engaging art montage.
*
Rating: 8/10

Video: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 19
LP#138 924 (18 924)*









*Brahms, Symphony No. 1, op. 68
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 11-12 October 1963
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:01

*Review: *I have a personal relationship with this symphony. It was the first symphony I listened to in its entirety as a young adult (I had been an aficionado of Copland as a teen). It really spoke to me then and it still does now. The thought of Brahms laboring over it for twenty years in an attempt to live up to Beethoven is compelling, and with each listen I nearly always find something in it to narrate something a part of my own life. Anyway, the BPO and Karajan give it a weighty, emotional account. The opening bars are titanic and thrilling. Overall, the orchestral texture is nicely balanced in a way that the 70s recording, by contrast, sometimes could get a tad mushy. This is HVK's slowest version, with each movement coming in longer than the 70s and 80s. As favorites go, It's a tossup between the 60s and 80s for me. There are some thrilling details in the 80s, and the brass in the finales is spine-tingling. This account is probably just as good, though.

*Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> 1960's Disc 18
> LP#138 923 (18 923)
> 
> View attachment 135985
> 
> 
> *Debussy, La Mer
> Ravel, Daphnis et Chloe, Suite No. 2
> Debussy, Prelude to an Afternoon of a Faun
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Karlheinz Zoller, flute (Prelude)
> *
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 9-11 March 1964
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 47:58
> 
> *Review:* Debussy's La Mer is one of the seminal works of modernism, apparently. I've always preferred his (roughly) contemporary composer, Strauss. But that's a matter of personal taste. La Mer has certainly got atmosphere, and the BPO under Karajan give it a sensual, involving take. I can find nothing to fault in the recording technically, as it is hiss free and wonderfully dynamic. The Ravel is quite dreamy throughout, until its rousing finale. The woodwinds are particularly nice, as is the percussion. The flute, well played by Zoller, is of course the star of the Faun, and it is complemented by lush strings. All in all, this platter is not my own personal cup of tea, but I can't fault the ravishing sonic beauty on offer. Side note, I quite like the cover. Another engaging art montage.
> *
> Rating: 8/10
> 
> Video: *


This caused a sensation when it appeared.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 19
> LP#138 924 (18 924)*
> 
> View attachment 135986
> 
> 
> *Brahms, Symphony No. 1, op. 68
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 11-12 October 1963
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 46:01
> 
> *Review: *I have a personal relationship with this symphony. It was the first symphony I listened to in its entirety as a young adult (I had been an aficionado of Copland as a teen). It really spoke to me then and it still does now. The thought of Brahms laboring over it for twenty years in an attempt to live up to Beethoven is compelling, and with each listen I nearly always find something in it to narrate something a part of my own life. Anyway, the BPO and Karajan give it a weighty, emotional account. The opening bars are titanic and thrilling. Overall, the orchestral texture is nicely balanced in a way that the 70s recording, by contrast, sometimes could get a tad mushy. This is HVK's slowest version, with each movement coming in longer than the 70s and 80s. As favorites go, It's a tossup between the 60s and 80s for me. There are some thrilling details in the 80s, and the brass in the finales is spine-tingling. This account is probably just as good, though.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Video:*


This came out as a boxed set (a rarity in those days) with the other symphonies, the requiem, the violin concerto (with Ferras) and the Tragic Overture.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Watch this happy family, all are cheering, standing ovations. Everybody is welcome to join, as long as they agree in the universal admiration of the supreme leader. Any different opinions are labelled as coming from 'haters' before one even joins the party. 

The rave reviews are particularly funny. I however still see some reservations, only 9/10 scores? I would say that a 11/10 score would be more appropriate! If anyone here ever watched the movie 'This is Spinal Tap', you know what I mean. 

Just a soggy fanbase or something scary? It will show as soon as anyone issues a different opinion. It will probably turn into a dangerous thread right away. So, for anyone who would rank the recordings of 'Der Mann' less than 8/10, let's just call it satire and stay in the audience:clap::clap::clap:

Keep up the good work!


----------



## Tsaraslondon

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 16
> LP#138 921 (18 921)*
> 
> View attachment 135917
> 
> 
> *Tchaikovsky, Symphony no. 6 "Pathetique," op. 74
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 11-12 February 1964
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 45:15
> 
> *Review:* Tchaikovsky was a composer of immensely likeable music, filled with drama and emotion, that some have dismissed as unserious or mawkish. Given some of the common criticisms of Karajan, perhaps this is a marriage made in heaven. This rendition of the 6th is unstoppable. The sonic quality is stupendous, but never overwhelms either the space or the recording equipment. The brass is bristling, the strings are sumptuous, the percussion is booming, and it all remains in balance. The tempii here are brisker than the 1970's recording with the BPO and the 80's recording with the VPO, but the overall emphasis remains the same in all three, and no one recording really trumps the others as far as a recommendation goes. They're all grand slams.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10*
> 
> *Video:
> *


Have you heard his 1971 EMI account? I think it tops even this one.


----------



## Eclectic Al

NLAdriaan said:


> Watch this happy family, all are cheering, standing ovations. Everybody is welcome to join, as long as they agree in the universal admiration of the supreme leader. Any different opinions are labelled as coming from 'haters' before one even joins the party.
> 
> The rave reviews are particularly funny. I however still see some reservations, only 9/10 scores? I would say that a 11/10 score would be more appropriate! If anyone here ever watched the movie 'This is Spinal Tap', you know what I mean.
> 
> Just a soggy fanbase or something scary? It will show as soon as anyone issues a different opinion. It will probably turn into a dangerous thread right away. So, for anyone who would rank the recordings of 'Der Mann' less than 8/10, let's just call it satire and stay in the audience:clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Keep up the good work!


Of course there may be something in what you say, but I don't see that that is a problem. There are Jane Austen appreciation societies, etc, etc. They serve a useful purpose for people who like Jane Austen, and it doesn't seem improper for them to exist. Someone going to such a gathering who doesn't like Jane Austen would seem pointless, or mischievous, unless they are genuinely seeking to discern what others might see in the great author. Meanwhile, the Jane Austen appreciation folk can happily discuss what they like about Emma, or why Sense & Sensibility is not as good as Pride & Prejudice or whatever.

Someone coming along saying that they think Tolstoy is much less superficial and deeper, or whatever, may be just voicing their opinion and many may think it is true, but it doesn't really contribute to the particular conversation which is going on; it just derails it.

This thread seems fine to me.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Knorf said:


> I agree about Karajan's Tchaikovsky. He did great with that repertoire, the symphonies for sure, but also the Overtures, such as _Marche slave_. I've heard sundry caviling about Karajan's performances supposedly not sounding sufficiently 'Russian,' but that's a sophism in my view.


Interestingly, the reviewer on BBC Radio 3's Building a Library programme on Tchikovsky's 6th (Marina Frolova-Walker, who is Russian) chose Karajan's 1971 EMI account as her top choice, even preferring it (just) to Mravinsky's accounts with the Leningrad. She didn't have any problems iwth it not sounding sufficiently 'Russian'.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Eclectic Al said:


> Of course there may be something in what you say, but I don't see that that is a problem. There are Jane Austen appreciation societies, etc, etc. They serve a useful purpose for people who like Jane Austen, and it doesn't seem improper for them to exist. Someone going to such a gathering who doesn't like Jane Austen would seem pointless, or mischievous, unless they are genuinely seeking to discern what others might see in the great author. Meanwhile, the Jane Austen appreciation folk can happily discuss what they like about Emma, or why Sense & Sensibility is not as good as Pride & Prejudice or whatever.
> 
> Someone coming along saying that they think Tolstoy is much less superficial and deeper, or whatever, may be just voicing their opinion and many may think it is true, but it doesn't really contribute to the particular conversation which is going on; it just derails it.
> 
> This thread seems fine to me.


Hear! Hear! :tiphat:


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

The Debussy/Ravel is one of Karajan’s greatest recordings. I personally think his emphasis on a soft, sensual sound world is great in this repertoire (as opposed to, say, Stravinsky). So this has always been a reference recording for me.

The Brahms 1st is also excellent, his best Brahms recording IMO (along with the 80s 2nd). The only thing Karajan is missing here is a bit more drama, angst, and tension. Bernstein/VPO gives us that, although some of his interpretive decisions are a bit wayward. For the best interpretations of this symphony we have to go back to Furtwängler, Mengelberg, Weingartner, and Toscanini. But for a reliable interpretation in good sound, you cannot do better than this 60s HvK.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Tsaraslondon said:


> Interestingly, the reviewer on BBC Radio 3's Building a Library programme on Tchikovsky's 6th (Marina Frolova-Walker, who is Russian) chose Karajan's 1971 EMI account as her top choice, even preferring it (just) to Mravinsky's accounts with the Leningrad. She didn't have any problems iwth it not sounding sufficiently 'Russian'.


Furtwängler and the BPO were also excellent in this symphony. Penguin gave his 1938 recording a famed "Rosette," though I think the live 1951 DG is more exciting and better recorded despite some extraneous noise. I'll have to hear the EMI Karajan. I'll bet it's not too far off in interpretation from the Furtwängler, and of course it included many of the same players.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Eclectic Al said:


> Of course there may be something in what you say, but I don't see that that is a problem. There are Jane Austen appreciation societies, etc, etc. They serve a useful purpose for people who like Jane Austen, and it doesn't seem improper for them to exist. Someone going to such a gathering who doesn't like Jane Austen would seem pointless, or mischievous, unless they are genuinely seeking to discern what others might see in the great author. Meanwhile, the Jane Austen appreciation folk can happily discuss what they like about Emma, or why Sense & Sensibility is not as good as Pride & Prejudice or whatever.
> 
> Someone coming along saying that they think Tolstoy is much less superficial and deeper, or whatever, may be just voicing their opinion and many may think it is true, but it doesn't really contribute to the particular conversation which is going on; it just derails it.
> 
> This thread seems fine to me.


There is also a Wilhelm Furtwängler Society, and in fact there was a Furtwängler online forum many years ago. It was a wonderful group, actually, where all facets of classical music and performance were intelligently discussed. The main thing for me is open-mindedness. The point should be to learn, discover and enlighten. Any time a discussion turns towards myopic, closed-minded thinking, where certain viewpoints are verboten, that is not productive in my view.

The difference between Karajan and Jane Austen is of course that Austen produced entirely original novels whereas Karajan was just one of many artists performing the same works. So you should not discuss Karajan in a vacuum as if other interpretations of the same works do not exist. Obviously you can still be of the opinion that Karajan's interpretations were superior, but to do so without any meaningful discussion or comparison against others is myopic.


----------



## JAS

Eclectic Al said:


> Of course there may be something in what you say, but I don't see that that is a problem. There are Jane Austen appreciation societies, etc, etc. They serve a useful purpose for people who like Jane Austen, and it doesn't seem improper for them to exist. Someone going to such a gathering who doesn't like Jane Austen would seem pointless, or mischievous, unless they are genuinely seeking to discern what others might see in the great author. Meanwhile, the Jane Austen appreciation folk can happily discuss what they like about Emma, or why Sense & Sensibility is not as good as Pride & Prejudice or whatever.
> 
> Someone coming along saying that they think Tolstoy is much less superficial and deeper, or whatever, may be just voicing their opinion and many may think it is true, but it doesn't really contribute to the particular conversation which is going on; it just derails it.
> 
> This thread seems fine to me.


No one seems to have despised the writings of Austen more than Mark Twain: "I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Every time I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."

I think that this is more than a bit harsh, and that there is actually some subtle satire in the books which is too often taken at face value. And, of course, there are the many people who think that it would be lovely to live in such times, forgetting that it was one thing to be among those who rented the great houses with an annual income, and those who were merely servants with no hope of improving their circumstances. (It probably also helps that in neither reading nor in film can we smell what it must really have been like.)


----------



## millionrainbows

NLAdriaan said:


> Watch this happy family, all are cheering, standing ovations. Everybody is welcome to join, as long as they agree in the universal admiration of the supreme leader. Any different opinions are labelled as coming from 'haters' before one even joins the party.
> 
> The rave reviews are particularly funny. I however still see some reservations, only 9/10 scores? I would say that a 11/10 score would be more appropriate! If anyone here ever watched the movie 'This is Spinal Tap', you know what I mean.
> 
> Just a soggy fanbase or something scary? It will show as soon as anyone issues a different opinion. It will probably turn into a dangerous thread right away. So, for anyone who would rank the recordings of 'Der Mann' less than 8/10, let's just call it satire and stay in the audience:clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Keep up the good work!


If you say anything else, we're gonna send over some thugs in boots to rough you up & break your windows...be afraid, be very afraid...


----------



## MatthewWeflen

As I have said previously, this set is front loaded with terrific recordings. There will be more negative reviews soon enough.

As I have also said, this thread is intended more as a database than anything, containing recording information and cover images. The reviews are relative only to his output and my tastes. I am not interested in, nor am I capable of, comparing these recordings to a thousand and one alternatives. Doing so will result in an endless ouroboros of flaming $#=+posts. 

If you don't like Karajan, and find any discussion of his output to be insipid, kindly bugger off to the comparable threads about Klemperer or Furtwangler.


----------



## Eclectic Al

Brahmsianhorn said:


> There is also a Wilhelm Furtwängler Society, and in fact there was a Furtwängler online forum many years ago. It was a wonderful group, actually, where all facets of classical music and performance were intelligently discussed. The main thing for me is open-mindedness. The point should be to learn, discover and enlighten. Any time a discussion turns towards myopic, closed-minded thinking, where certain viewpoints are verboten, that is not productive in my view.
> 
> The difference between Karajan and Jane Austen is of course that Austen produced entirely original novels whereas Karajan was just one of many artists performing the same works. So you should not discuss Karajan in a vacuum as if other interpretations of the same works do not exist. Obviously you can still be of the opinion that Karajan's interpretations were superior, but to do so without any meaningful discussion or comparison against others is myopic.


I don't disagree with anything you say here, although I think it would also be fair to discuss Jane Austen in the context of other authors, just as this site often involves comparisons of composers as well as performers. Hence, I'm not convinced the distinction is as clear as you suggest.

I think my fundamental point, though, is that it is useful to have discussions where there is an agreed framework, a set of rules of engagement - for example, where it is taken as read that the people involved are generally well-disposed towards something or someone. You can then have fruitful discussions, including comparisons with other conductors (say). What destroys the conversation is if the discussion gets sucked into the same sterile area again and again, because people are involved in the discussion who generally do not share the rules of engagement. If someone thinks that HvK has fundamental overall flaws in his recorded legacy, and simply keeps posting those, then it adds nothing to the discussion and simply irritates. Such people should set up their own "Don't like HvK" thread and post there.

Not saying that the above refers to yourself, just to be clear.


----------



## Eclectic Al

JAS said:


> No one seems to have despised the writings of Austen more than Mark Twain: "I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Every time I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
> 
> I think that this is more than a bit harsh, and that there is actually some subtle satire in the books which is too often taken at face value. And, of course, there are the many people who think that it would be lovely to live in such times, forgetting that it was one thing to be among those who rented the great houses with an annual income, and those who were merely servants with no hope of improving their circumstances. (It probably also helps that in neither reading nor in film can we smell what it must really have been like.)


Interesting thing is that Twain seems, according to this account, to have read Pride and Prejudice several times - he didn't have to. A bit off topic, but I quite like Tom Sawyer, but don't like Huckleberry Finn so much. I enjoyed the Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs court. Beyond that, Twain does little for me.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Interesting thing is that Twain seems, according to this account, to have read Pride and Prejudice several times - he didn't have to. A bit off topic, but I quite like Tom Sawyer, but don't like Huckleberry Finn so much. I enjoyed the Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs court. Beyond that, Twain does little for me.


Give The Mysterious Stranger a read. It's relatively short, and is quite singular both in his oeuvre and compared to other contemporary fiction.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> If you don't like Karajan, and find any discussion of his output to be insipid, kindly bugger off to the comparable threads about Klemperer or Furtwangler.


And that's the kind of attitude I take issue with. Obviously if I am calling Karajan recordings on this thread "reference recordings," then I neither hate Karajan nor Karajan discussion. But I should feel free to opine about them openly as opposed to having to be checked by the gestapo. Right now, I feel as if it is okay to like a particular Karajan recording but not okay to dislike one. It's almost like being a member of Karajan's orchestra where everything is controlled. We never had this issue in the Furtwängler forum.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> And that's the kind of attitude I take issue with. Obviously if I am calling Karajan recordings on this thread "reference recordings," then I neither hate Karajan nor Karajan discussion. But I should feel free to opine about them openly as opposed to having to be checked by the gestapo. Right now, I feel as if it is okay to like a particular Karajan recording but not okay to dislike one. It's almost like being a member of Karajan's orchestra where everything is controlled. We never had this issue in the Furtwängler forum.


Personally, I have had no issue with any of your appraisals of the recordings themselves. If someone thinks his Rite of Spring sucks, they are at liberty to say so. I would only wish that the discussion does not become so protracted and full of endless fruitless comparisons (in which someone offers up their "one version to rule them all" and rhetorically defacates upon any other) that the point of the thread (as database and "travelogue") gets lost.

I will be offering plenty of negative opinions about Karajan's Bach, his 1812 Overture, his Wellington's Victory, and so on.

My animus is directed at those who pooh pooh the whole enterprise. If this thread is useless to you, why are you here? Avoiding things on the internet may be the single easiest thing to do on Earth.


----------



## Heck148

NLAdriaan said:


> Watch this happy family, all are cheering, standing ovations. Everybody is welcome to join, as long as they agree in the universal admiration of the supreme leader. Any different opinions are labelled as coming from 'haters' before one even joins the party.


right....one dare not "splatter mud on the sacred cow"....


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Eclectic Al said:


> I don't disagree with anything you say here, although I think it would also be fair to discuss Jane Austen in the context of other authors, just as this site often involves comparisons of composers as well as performers. Hence, I'm not convinced the distinction is as clear as you suggest.
> 
> I think my fundamental point, though, is that it is useful to have discussions where there is an agreed framework, a set of rules of engagement - for example, where it is taken as read that the people involved are generally well-disposed towards something or someone. You can then have fruitful discussions, including comparisons with other conductors (say). What destroys the conversation is if the discussion gets sucked into the same sterile area again and again, because people are involved in the discussion who generally do not share the rules of engagement. If someone thinks that HvK has fundamental overall flaws in his recorded legacy, and simply keeps posting those, then it adds nothing to the discussion and simply irritates. Such people should set up their own "Don't like HvK" thread and post there.
> 
> Not saying that the above refers to yourself, just to be clear.


I find myself in complete agreement with you yet again. There are certain artists whom I don't much like for one reason or another. If I saw a thread such as this one devoted to them, I'd just steer clear.


----------



## Eclectic Al

It's not for me to say, but given that this thread was set up with a fairly clear purpose, ie to go through a set of HvK recordings and provide reviews of them - which I personally will find helpful (- it has prompted me to listen to some 60s Beethoven recordings when I'm mainly stuck in the 70s as far as HvK's Beethoven goes), then can we perhaps let MatthewWeflen get on with providing that service.

Just a thought. It would seen rude not to.


----------



## Knorf

Tsaraslondon said:


> I find myself in complete agreement with you yet again. There are certain artists whom I don't much like for one reason for another. If I saw a thread such as this one devoted to them, I'd just steer clear.


Same with me. Why certain poster have to be such colossal, clattering knobheads is a mystery to me. Trolls, I guess.

I like MatthewWeflen's intentions with creating and driving this thread, and support what he's doing. Hopefully this run of "nyah, nyah, nya-nyah, nyah, you poopy heads like Karajan" idiocy will run out of steam soon if ignored.

Anyway with a brain CAN see there were polite but critical posts pages ago.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

<<< TRIGGER WARNING >>>
<<< Positive Karajan Review Incoming >>>


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> <<< TRIGGER WARNING >>>
> <<< Positive Karajan Review Incoming >>>


I still want to know why you rated the Ravel/Debussy so low


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 20
LP#138 925 (18 925)*








*
Brahms, Symphony No. 2, op. 73
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 10-11 October 1963
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 40:59
*
Review: *Again, the recording engineering is wondrous here for the most part (one exception noted below). Instrument groups are crystal clear, bass response is deep and resonant. This recording sits in between the 70s (fastest) and 80s (slowest) for tempo. It never feels like it drags. The 2nd movement Adagio still has a feeling of purpose and forward movement, aided I'm sure by the surging elements Brahms has placed within it. The third movement is remarkable in its ability to go from light and airy to rich and sonorous. Listen from 27:43 in the appended video. There are moments in the 4th movement that I feel the mix is a bit too crowded, and things start to feel a bit much. I would point to about 34:05 in the video as an example of this. As far as recommending a rendition of HvK/BPO on this symphony, I think the 70s is out because the overall mix is way too heavy and flabby. The 80s has good early digital sound and better balanced climaxes throughout, but I think the tempii and the beginning-to-end clarity of the 60s come out ahead. But the 80s is still quite good. I am again bored by the repeated artwork.

*Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I still want to know why you rated the Ravel/Debussy so low


It's not my preferred repertoire. It is obviously a very good recording, but it doesn't speak to me the way Brahms or Beethoven do. It could well be that if I reviewed it in a year or two, after (hypothetically) Debussy became more my bag and I had heard a few more versions (as I have with B&B), my rating would go up or down. As it is, I can only kind of try to put my initial impressions of the music and the sound quality into words and numbers. The same is true of this Rite of Spring - I can only have an immediate reaction to it, not one tempered by long and varied experience.

Review scores are for entertainment purposes only. Do not take internally.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> It's not my preferred repertoire. It is obviously a very good recording, but it doesn't speak to me the way Brahms or Beethoven do.
> 
> Review scores are for entertainment purposes only.


In college a girl once let me borrow her VHS tapes of Simpsons episodes under the proviso that I label all the episodes on each tape for her. I did so, and I also graded each episode as well. I ended up with a tongue-lashing for downgrading some of her favorite episodes. Ever since then I have realized review scores are never for entertainment purposes only.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 21
LP#138 926 (18 926)*









*Brahms, Symphony No. 3, op. 90
Brahms, Variations on a theme of Joseph Haydn, op. 56a
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-30 September 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 50:19

*Review:* This review is based on sound more than anything. I think both pieces are interpreted in exciting and beautiful ways, and are played with the typical proficiency of the BPO. But something is screwy with the mastering of this CD. The bass is out of control. Plucks on cellos and basses overwhelm my ear. Now, it may be that Gunter Hermanns just put the mics too close that day, but I know that this is a mastering issue overall because I own the hi-res version of the 60s cycle, purchased from HDTracks. The bass is so much more controlled on that version compared to the CD. The Haydn variations exhibit similarly overripe bass. I can't really recommend the CD version of this recording, as such. If you can source the 96k/24b download of the 60s Brahms cycle, you should do so. Otherwise, the better CD alternative for a Brahms 3rd by HvK/BPO is the 80s disc. It is very similar in terms of tempii and the recording is better represented on compact disc. I think it's more exciting and has more interesting textures, too. You won't get the Haydn variations, though, instead you'll get the Tragic Overture. 
*Rating: 8/10 (Hi-Res download) 6/10 (OIBP remaster CD)*

*Video: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 22
LP#138 927 (18 927)
*








*Brahms, Symphony No. 4, op. 98
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 12-16 October 1963
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 41:48

*Review: *Now this is more like it. Finely balanced, totally ravishing. The 2nd movement Andante is mind-blowingly good. The passage beginning at 16:15 in the appended video is wondrous. Climaxes are crisp and impactful, piano passages have good range. The 60s recording sits in the middle of the three DG accounts in terms of tempo, and is the pick of the three. A triumph from the first note to the death of the last echo from the hall.
*Rating: 10/10*

Video:


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

He also did an excellent Brahms 3rd with the VPO around 1960 for Decca


----------



## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> He also did an excellent Brahms 3rd with the VPO around 1960 for Decca


He sure did, often combined with an equally good Dvořák 8.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

MatthewWeflen said:


> 1960's Disc 18
> LP#138 923 (18 923)
> 
> View attachment 135985
> 
> 
> *Debussy, La Mer
> Ravel, Daphnis et Chloe, Suite No. 2
> Debussy, Prelude to an Afternoon of a Faun
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Karlheinz Zoller, flute (Prelude)
> *
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 9-11 March 1964
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 47:58
> 
> *Review:* Debussy's La Mer is one of the seminal works of modernism, apparently. I've always preferred his (roughly) contemporary composer, Strauss. But that's a matter of personal taste. La Mer has certainly got atmosphere, and the BPO under Karajan give it a sensual, involving take. I can find nothing to fault in the recording technically, as it is hiss free and wonderfully dynamic. The Ravel is quite dreamy throughout, until its rousing finale. The woodwinds are particularly nice, as is the percussion. The flute, well played by Zoller, is of course the star of the Faun, and it is complemented by lush strings. All in all, this platter is not my own personal cup of tea, but I can't fault the ravishing sonic beauty on offer. Side note, I quite like the cover. Another engaging art montage.
> *
> Rating: 8/10
> 
> Video: *


This is a 10/10 for me. One of the best *La Mer*s in the catalogue, IMO. I love the gorgeous sensuousness of it. The Ravel is pretty stunning too.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 14
> LP#138 822 (18 822)
> *
> View attachment 135913
> 
> 
> *Tchaikovsky, Piano Concerto No. 1, op.23
> Wiener Symphoniker, orchestra
> Sviatoslav Richter, piano
> *
> Recorded at Musikvereinssaal, Vienna, 24-26 September 1962
> Executive Producer: Elsa Schiller
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 36:18
> 
> *Review: *It is nigh on impossible to find any reason to fault this recording. The sound quality is resonant and full of dynamic range. Analog hiss is not noticeable. The Wiener Symphoniker provides stellar orchestral accompaniment to Sviatoslav Richter's virtuosic piano playing. And the piece itself is unfailingly entertaining in the high romantic mode. If anyone would like to listen to the appended video and offer criticism, I would like to hear it. But I don't think I'll be agreeing. I guess the cover kind of stinks. I don't know what the DG graphic design department was thinking posting such a dark photo that lacked bright contrast. There are much better attempts at this effect down the road for DG's releases.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Video:
> *


I'm in sharp disagreement with you here. I've always thought that it lacked passion and that the two artists didn't really gel. I have the recording, coupled with Richter's fabulous Rachmaninov 2, which is conducted by a less well known conductor, Wislocki. I don't know much about him but maybe he wasn't as strong a personality as Karajan.


----------



## DavidA

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm in sharp disagreement with you here. I've always thought that it lacked passion and that the two artists didn't really gel. I have the recording, coupled with Richter's fabulous Rachmaninov 2, which is conducted by a less well known conductor, Wislocki. I don't know much about him but maybe he wasn't as strong a personality as Karajan.


It's a certainly 'different' performance, elegant rather than fiery in the traditional Russian manner. Almost Schumannesque


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm in sharp disagreement with you here. I've always thought that it lacked passion and that the two artists didn't really gel. I have the recording, coupled with Richter's fabulous Rachmaninov 2, which is conducted by a less well known conductor, Wislocki. I don't know much about him but maybe he wasn't as strong a personality as Karajan.


Some people are coming to your house.


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> Some people are coming to your house.


And they're chanting ominously. Two words. One sounds like "fert" and the other rhymes with "wang" followed by "ler."


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 23
LP#138 930 (18 930)
*








*Brahms, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 77
Christian Ferras, violin
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4-6 May 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 41:22

*Review: *This Christian Ferras fellow can fiddle, can't he? The solo part is exceptional, and meshes well with the orchestra. Overall sound is superlative, and it's hard to find any fault. I think this version is to be preferred ever so slightly over the 80s version with Anne-Sophie Mutter. They are very similar in terms of tempo and duration, but I find Ferras to be the better soloist. Mutter can be a bit overwrought in places, comparatively. Your liking of this piece will probably depend upon how much you enjoy extended violin solos. 
*
Rating: 8/10

Video: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 24
LP#2707 018*









*Ein Deutsches Requiem, op. 45
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Eberhard Waechter, baritone
Wiener Singverein
Wolfgang Meyer, organ
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Musikvereinssaal, Vienna, 16-18 May 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 76:41
*
Review:* This recording is terrific. The Wiener Singverein are spot on, with gorgeous backdrop singing, creating a tableaux for the exquisite solo work. The BPO is finely modulated and never overpowers them. The second movement is titanic and beautiful, but also heartbreaking. The tympani in it are perfectly integrated into the sound, punctuating drama without being cartoonish. Now, I also happen to think the 80s recording with the VPO is superb. The major difference between them is that the organ is more forward in that mix. But I don't think either really eliminates the other from contention. The latter is a bit clearer throughout, but the former has a mysticism about it that is very involving. 
*

Rating: 9/10

Video: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Thus ends the Brahms portion of the 60s box set. I think Karajan/BPO and Brahms are a very good combo. Like Tchaikovsky, Brahms seems to fill his pieces with the sorts of big phrases and slower moments that benefit from HvK/BPO's emphasis on legato and brass power. When I want a leaner Brahms sound (which, admittedly, isn't _all_ that often), I've enjoyed Gardiner/ORR's HIPpier take. Gardiner seems to favor sharper attacks on the strings and faster tempii. It's invigorating, to be sure, but usually I want a more lugubrious storminess and darkness in my Brahms.


----------



## Eclectic Al

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm in sharp disagreement with you here. I've always thought that it lacked passion and that the two artists didn't really gel. I have the recording, coupled with Richter's fabulous Rachmaninov 2, which is conducted by a less well known conductor, Wislocki. I don't know much about him but maybe he wasn't as strong a personality as Karajan.


Off topic, but I have the Richter Rachmaninov 2 with Wislocki, couple with Richter and Rowicki doing Prokofiev's 5th concerto, both with the Warsaw PO. I think I bought that because of treat reviews about the Rachmaninov. Great disc.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 25
LP#138 961 (18 961)
*








*Sibelius, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 47
Finlandia, op. 26
Christian Ferras, vioin (concerto)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-30 October 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 42:59

*Review: *All right, I said that the more critical reviews were coming, and now is.... not the time for one. Deal with it! Sweet merciful crap, this is a stunning platter. Ferras' playing is out of this world on the concerto. The textures the BPO conjures behind him are just magical, in the best Sibelian sense of the word. As far as I can tell, Karajan never recorded this work again. I'd like to think it's because he knew there was simply no way to better this account. The Finlandia is also the best account I've heard, and I've heard a good half dozen. The sound quality overall on this disc is spellbinding. An absolute triumph.
*
Rating: 10/10*
*
Video: *


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 23
> LP#138 930 (18 930)
> *
> View attachment 136151
> 
> 
> *Brahms, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 77
> Christian Ferras, violin
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4-6 May 1964
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 41:22
> 
> *Review: *This Christian Ferras fellow can fiddle, can't he? The solo part is exceptional, and meshes well with the orchestra. Overall sound is superlative, and it's hard to find any fault. I think this version is to be preferred ever so slightly over the 80s version with Anne-Sophie Mutter. They are very similar in terms of tempo and duration, but I find Ferras to be the better soloist. Mutter can be a bit overwrought in places, comparatively. Your liking of this piece will probably depend upon how much you enjoy extended violin solos.
> *
> Rating: 8/10
> 
> Video: *


Described when it came out as'a magnificent performance'


----------



## MatthewWeflen

A note on equipment:

Understanding what I listen on may inform some of the ratings I give. All of the music for this project is ripped from CD as 44khz/16b FLAC files, which should reproduce precisely the sound present on the CD. I use Exact Audio Copy as my ripping program (unless I'm ripping Blu-Ray Audio, which is more complicated).









My primary listening device is my Sony MDR-Z7 headphones, fed via balanced cable from my Sony NW-ZX300 hi-res music player. This player should provide a high fidelity source for recordings up to 11.2mhz/32b DSD and the headphones, which have a 70mm driver, should reproduce sound faithfully from 4hz to 100khz.









It's on these headphones that I listen in the late evenings, and they're the ones that give me the softest piano passages and the deepest bass (such as on the Sibelius Violin Concerto).

During the day, usually while making or eating food, I listen on my Bose SoundTouch 20 stereo speaker. Although it does wireless audio, I prefer wired connection from my Sony NW-A40 hi-res music player over 3.5mm stereo minijack.









The Bose is a fine speaker, and certainly the best standalone Bluetooth speaker I've heard. It's nice for a louder environment like a busy kitchen. But it's not the same as the headphones, nor is it quite as good as a stereo receiver and bookshelf speakers and subwoofer, and it is better for more forte-heavy music.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 26
LP#138 964 (18 964)*









*Berlioz, Symphonie fantastique, op.14
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27-30 December 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:36

*Review: *One of the pleasures of a project like this is becoming better acquainted with works that didn't grab me on first or second listen. I tend to listen to these once during the day in the kitchen, and once at night on my headphones. While this still isn't my ultimate cup of tea, I can see why it is revered. It is amazingly modern for when it was written, and it is full of interesting textures and moments. This rendition does a good job of "telling a story," with excellent playing by the BPO, and the sound quality is very good, though analog hiss is present in some quieter passages (e.g. the 3rd). The march is thrilling, with wonderful tympani (37:18 in the appended video). It's probably still not a piece I'll return to often, but I can't find much to knock it on, at least as a relative neophyte to the piece.
*
Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 27
LP#138 973 (18 973)*









*Sibelius, Symphony No. 5, op. 82
Tapiola, op. 112
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22-24 February 1965 (Sym. 5); 30 October 1964 (Tapiolo)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:44
*
Review: *While it is fair to term the Sibelius of Karajan/BPO as "in the heroic mode," this rendition possesses a lot of sonic and emotional variety. The piano passages are quiet but urgent, and the textures created by the violins are excellent. Karajan generally speaking gives everything a driving pulse. This might mean that the finale of this piece goes "too fast." Maybe. But it also means that the music almost never loses the plot. Anyhow, this Sibelius 5th ranks very highly for me, the other I've heard that contains similar drama is Colin Davis and the LSO. The recording is excellent. The EMI 5th is slightly longer. It is definitely more bombastic and more "heroic." But it too is fabulously recorded and played, so the choice comes down to whether you want more mystery (DG) or more explosiveness (EMI).

Tapiola is very fine as well. The maelstrom beginning at 16:21 is positively vertiginous. The 80s Tapiola with the BPO is almost identical in duration, but I like the 60s better, as it seems to have sharper attacks. The EMI Tapiola is slightly shorter, and is more aggressive and bombastic. I think the 60s Tapiola is still better, as it is more nimble in soft passages. All in all, I can't see much reason to fault this record at all. If you want Heroic Sibelius punctuated by darkness and mystery, you won't go wrong with this.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Eclectic Al said:


> Off topic, but I have the Richter Rachmaninov 2 with Wislocki, couple with Richter and Rowicki doing Prokofiev's 5th concerto, both with the Warsaw PO. I think I bought that because of treat reviews about the Rachmaninov. Great disc.


A much more logical coupling, I think.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 26
> LP#138 964 (18 964)*
> 
> View attachment 136233
> 
> 
> *Berlioz, Symphonie fantastique, op.14
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27-30 December 1964
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 52:36
> 
> *Review: *One of the pleasures of a project like this is becoming better acquainted with works that didn't grab me on first or second listen. I tend to listen to these once during the day in the kitchen, and once at night on my headphones. While this still isn't my ultimate cup of tea, I can see why it is revered. It is amazingly modern for when it was written, and it is full of interesting textures and moments. This rendition does a good job of "telling a story," with excellent playing by the BPO, and the sound quality is very good, though analog hiss is present in some quieter passages (e.g. the 3rd). The march is thrilling, with wonderful tympani (37:18 in the appended video). It's probably still not a piece I'll return to often, but I can't find much to knock it on, at least as a relative neophyte to the piece.
> *
> Rating: 8/10
> 
> Video:*


I love Berlioz and love this symphony. I've always thought the best performances are those which commit to its weirdness. Karajan attempts to bring it more into the central European symphonic tradition and it loses some of its thrill. I prefer Colin Davis's Concergebouw performances for one on modern instruments, but have recently been very impressed by Le Siècle's HIP performances. Maybe you should try it.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 27
> LP#138 973 (18 973)*
> 
> View attachment 136235
> 
> 
> *Sibelius, Symphony No. 5, op. 82
> Tapiola, op. 112
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22-24 February 1965 (Sym. 5); 30 October 1964 (Tapiolo)
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:44
> *
> Review: *While it is fair to term the Sibelius of Karajan/BPO as "in the heroic mode," this rendition possesses a lot of sonic and emotional variety. The piano passages are quiet but urgent, and the textures created by the violins are excellent. Karajan generally speaking gives everything a driving pulse. This might mean that the finale of this piece goes "too fast." Maybe. But it also means that the music almost never loses the plot. Anyhow, this Sibelius 5th ranks very highly for me, the other I've heard that contains similar drama is Colin Davis and the LSO. The recording is excellent. The EMI 5th is slightly longer. It is definitely more bombastic and more "heroic." But it too is fabulously recorded and played, so the choice comes down to whether you want more mystery (DG) or more explosiveness (EMI).
> 
> Tapiola is very fine as well. The maelstrom beginning at 16:21 is positively vertiginous. The 80s Tapiola with the BPO is almost identical in duration, but I like the 60s better, as it seems to have sharper attacks. The EMI Tapiola is slightly shorter, and is more aggressive and bombastic. I think the 60s Tapiola is still better, as it is more nimble in soft passages. All in all, I can't see much reason to fault this record at all. If you want Heroic Sibelius punctuated by darkness and mystery, you won't go wrong with this.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos: *


10/10 for me too, for both the symphony and *Tapiola*.


----------



## DavidA

Tsaraslondon said:


> I love Berlioz and love this symphony. I've always thought the best performances are those which commit to its weirdness. Karajan attempts to bring it more into the central European symphonic tradition and it loses some of its thrill. I prefer Colin Davis's Concergebouw performances for one on modern instruments, but have recently been very impressed by Le Siècle's HIP performances. Maybe you should try it.


Munch for weirdness!


----------



## Knorf

I agree with this criticism: Karajan's _Symphonie fantastique_ doesn't work for me, either. Munch is great for embracing the weirdness, but also I've been _really_ taken in with Immerseel/Anima Eterna Brugge, on period instruments.

Now Karajan's Sibelius, different story. It's frickin' outstanding. It's a pity he never did a complete set. I could happily give up one of the Beethoven sets for a complete Karajan Sibelius Symphonies and Tone Poems.


----------



## Eclectic Al

Knorf said:


> I agree with this criticism: Karajan's _Symphonie fantastique_ doesn't work for me, either. Munch is great for embracing the weirdness, but also I've been _really_ taken in with Immerseel/Anima Eterna Brugge, on period instruments.
> 
> Now Karajan's Sibelius, different story. It's frickin' outstanding. It's a pity he never did a complete set. I could happily give up one of the Beethoven sets for a complete Karajan Sibelius Symphonies and Tone Poems.


Indeed. I really love Sibelius 3, such a breath of fresh air. Did HvK not like it? Does anyone have an explanation?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Indeed. I really love Sibelius 3, such a breath of fresh air. Did HvK not like it? Does anyone have an explanation?


There is a Gramophone interview that gets at it, but I am currently paywalled.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/karajan-s-sibelius


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 28
LP#138 974 (18 974)*








*
Sibelius, Symphony No. 4, op. 63
The Swan of Tuonela, op. 22/3
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 26-27 12 May 1965 (Sym. 4); 18-21 September 1965 (Swan)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 43:47

*Review:* If you want your Sibelius less "heroic/romantic," this is the disc for you. Karajan and the BPO create shimmering textures and mystery, and everything is very controlled. The strings are beautifully modulated. I will say that the violin part in the first movement was a bit screechy (around 6:00 in thje appended video). Cellos and bassoon really get a chance to shine in this symphony. The 60s DG account is significantly faster than the EMI. The EMI recording is bigger and brassier in the crescendos, but not in an off putting way, and the textures elsewhere are just as mysterious and shimmering. The sound is significantly better, and lacks the screechiness I mention above. I think overall the EMI is preferable to the DG.

The 60s DG Swan is very close in duration to the 80s DG Swan. The 80s Swan has almost no extraneous noise, while the 60s sounds significantly crunchier. The interpretations are quite similar, though, and I don't think either is a clear standout from the other.

*Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 29
LP#139 005 (39 005)*









*Brandenburg Concertos 1-3 (BWV1046-1048)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-24 August 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hand Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:22

*Review: *Here we have the 60s Brandeburgs (1-3), from when HvK and the BPO were so chummy that they summered together in St. Moritz. This was recorded in a concert hall there, and the acoustics are certainly different. Page turns are clearly audible.

The first concerto starts out pretty well. 1-1 is pretty decent, with a crisp tempo and clearly audible harpsichord. 1-2 a little pokey but has a lovely tone. 1-3 is sprightly and entertaining. 1-4, however, is perversely slow and loses momentum. Overall, a 6/10.

Concerto 2 is peppy. It is maybe a tad overdone in the overall layering of sounds, but generally is fine. It contains very competent harpsichord and woodwinds. Overall an 8/10.

Concerto 3 is kind of a train wreck from an audio perspective. The reverberation in the hall turns the whole thing into soup. Harpsichord gets a bit lost in the mix. The playing is quite good from a technical standpoint, but the whole thing congeals and feels very leaden. 45:15 in the appended video gives a good feel for what I'm driving at here. Overall a 4/10.

I wonder what these would have sounded like in the Jesus-Christus-Kirche. I can't help but think they would have been better.

HVK/BPO's late 70s set is an improvement from a tempo standpoint, as the whole set of 1-3 comes in 4.5 minutes faster. Textures on the third concerto are also cleared up significantly. It still doesn't set me on fire for Bach, and for my money Pinnock and The English Concert are the band to beat.

*Rating: 5/10

Videos:*


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I had no idea Karajan did a James Bond movie


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I had no idea Karajan did a James Bond movie


James Bond: GoldenEar


----------



## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> There is a Gramophone interview that gets at it, but I am currently paywalled.
> 
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/karajan-s-sibelius


Thanks. I was allowed in. There is a section here of an interview with Robert Layton:
"Like many Sibelians, I had often wondered whether the fact that he had never recorded Nos 1 and 3, and unlike so many distinguished conductors had only made one version of No 2, might reflect lack of sympathy with the overt national-romanticism of early Sibelius. Was he, I wondered, not drawn to the more opulent textures of the first two symphonies? But this proved not to be the case: 'I have conducted the First Symphony in Germany during the war years but Walter Legge did not encourage me to record them during the 1950s."
And here:
".. later the same decade when Karajan re-recorded all the later symphonies with the Berlin Philharmonic, leaving the first three to the young Finnish conductor, Okko Kamu."
It still doesn't really touch on the any aversion (or otherwise) to the third. There is only reference to him having performed Number 1 prior to the interview date. The interview talks about his focus on 4-7, whereas I think it's a pity that that wasn't 3-7, as among the symphonies 3 seems to me to be where he really finds real originality.

By the way, there's a good concluding peroration from Layton which HvK fans will enjoy, regarding a recording of Number 1!

"I have never for one moment thought that anecdotal chat about the mechanics of record making are of more than passing interest to the collector whose concern is first and foremost with the finished product. After recording the Scherzo, however, Karajan remained unhappy with the results. There had been no want of virtuosity on the part of the Berlin Philharmonic, nor was there any lack of fire or excitement in the insistent pounding of the lower strings. But, as he rightly said, it was not up to speed - it did not represent the truth! A second take produced much more headlong, wilder playing even at the loss of some of the superbly controlled momentum of the earlier take. I was almost reminded of the Beecham pre-war Lemminkäinen's Homeward Journey, composed only three years earlier, such was the excitement generated. When he heard this played back, Karajan remarked that Sibelius's metronome indication was probably a shade too fast. Yet the very act of striving after the letter of the truth enabled him to capture the spirit.
The recording team had been more than happy with the first take, as indeed they might well be for it was undeniably impressive, but the very pursuit of Sibelius's metronome marking, impossible though it really is, ensured the right character. The dominant impression that I am left with after this encounter is rather different from the popular image of the glossy superstar: he is completely direct, unaffected and wholly dedicated to the truth as he sees it. He has been a loyal advocate of Sibelius in good times and bad - and however you may respond to this or that performance, Sibelians are in his debt."


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I had no idea Karajan did a James Bond movie


No fast cars and fast women!


----------



## Merl

Thanks again for these, Matty. For me his Brandenburgs are just 'no' but Karajan always had a way with Sibelius and his 5th is truly a very special recording.


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## MatthewWeflen

Merl said:


> Thanks again for these, Matty. For me his Brandenburgs are just 'no' but Karajan always had a way with Sibelius and his 5th is truly a very special recording.


I'm heading off to bed, but I will say that the 4th Brandenburg on the next record is fairly good.


----------



## Knorf

I've always felt that Karajan was one of the very few conductors who understood Sibelius 4. And that's not an unheard-of comment: 


http://www.karajan.co.uk/sibelius.html said:


> The Sibelius scholar and biographer Erik Tawaststjerna inscribed the following dedication in Karajan's copy of his book:
> "To Herbert von Karajan.
> The only conductor who understands the Fourth Symphony.
> Erik Tawaststjerna"


----------



## Tsaraslondon

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 28
> LP#138 974 (18 974)*
> 
> View attachment 136287
> 
> *
> Sibelius, Symphony No. 4, op. 63
> The Swan of Tuonela, op. 22/3
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 26-27 12 May 1965 (Sym. 4); 18-21 September 1965 (Swan)
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 43:47
> 
> *Review:* If you want your Sibelius less "heroic/romantic," this is the disc for you. Karajan and the BPO create shimmering textures and mystery, and everything is very controlled. The strings are beautifully modulated. I will say that the violin part in the first movement was a bit screechy (around 6:00 in thje appended video). Cellos and bassoon really get a chance to shine in this symphony. The 60s DG account is significantly faster than the EMI. The EMI recording is bigger and brassier in the crescendos, but not in an off putting way, and the textures elsewhere are just as mysterious and shimmering. The sound is significantly better, and lacks the screechiness I mention above. I think overall the EMI is preferable to the DG.
> 
> The 60s DG Swan is very close in duration to the 80s DG Swan. The 80s Swan has almost no extraneous noise, while the 60s sounds significantly crunchier. The interpretations are quite similar, though, and I don't think either is a clear standout from the other.
> 
> *Rating: 8/10*
> 
> *Videos:*


A 10/10 for me for what is my favourite Sibelius symphony. I don't see the symphony as heroic at all, more an awed response to the beauty and majesty of bleak tundra in winter.


----------



## DavidA

Knorf said:


> I've always felt that Karajan was one of the very few conductors who understood Sibelius 4. And that's not an unheard-of comment:


Sibelius had a high regard for Karajan's conducting of his works. Interesting that Karajan was one of the few conductors who would champion Sibelius after the war


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 30
LP#139 006 (39 006)*








*
Brandenburg Concertos 4-6 (BWV1049-1051)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-24 August 1964, 22 February 1965 (6th)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hand Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 58:17

*Review: *The 4th Concerto is a drastic improvement over the wretched 3rd. Textures are relatively clear, and the harpsichord is well integrated and audible. Tempos are reasonable in all three movements, and the overall impression is full of pep and beauty. Michael Schwalbe provides some very nice violin playing, which plays well against Matthias Rutters on flute. I'd give it a 7/10 on its own.

The 5th is similarly clear and moderately paced. Edith Picht-Axenfeld is allowed to truly star on the harpsichord part, which is nigh-on virtuosic. Her big solo begins at about 1:21:42 in the appended video, and it's truly splendid. I do still think the harpsichord is too recessed in the mix when the string section is playing, though. All in all, though, a pretty good account. This would rate an 8/10 from me.

The 6th concerto is a catastrophe, sonically. What in heaven's name happened? The recording dates do put this a good 6 months after the 4th and 5th, but the notes indicate it's still in the same hall. The strings turn this into a mushy stew in which everything has been chewed and half digested. The harpsichord sounds like it might be in the next room. Were microphones covered with Jell-O? The third movement comes off the best, but still is mushy and gauzy. Just putrid. the worst of the six, I'd give it a 3/10.
*
Overall Rating: 6/10

Videos:*


----------



## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> Sibelius had a high regard for Karajan's conducting of his works. Interesting that Karajan was one of the few conductors who would champion Sibelius after the war


Probably not what you guys (sirs) are waiting for in this thread, but Sibelius was highly appreciated by the German National Socialist movement, just as Wagner. Not that surprisingly, as there are clear Blut & Boden nationalist references with both. Sibelius himself had probably nothing to do with it, he already had stopped composing a few years before the NSDAP came to power. This however might have raised some post war controversies to Sibelius music?


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Sibelius admired anyone who conducted his work, and also the only recordings Karajan made of Sibelius while the latter was living were the original Philharmonia ones well before the well-known stereo BPO recordings. Honestly for me, it comes down less to Karajan and more to the BPO because I cannot stand the way they play Sibelius - thick, sludgy, fluffed-up. Rattle’s recent cycle with them sounds like that to me too. My understanding is that the Berliners have no idiomatic understanding of the music. Karajan’s tone-poems disc is alright, but he’s far, far down my list of respected Sibelius conductors, not the least due to his orchestra. Give me his Beethoven, Bruckner, Strauss, and Ravel any day.


----------



## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Probably not what you guys (sirs) are waiting for in this thread, but Sibelius was highly appreciated by the German National Socialist movement, just as Wagner. Not that surprisingly, as there are clear Blut & Boden nationalist references with both. Sibelius himself had probably nothing to do with it, he already had stopped composing a few years before the NSDAP came to power. This however might have raised some post war controversies to Sibelius music?


Yes well in the aftermath of the war it maybe did in some quarters. But that was hardly Sibelius' fault. But when HvK conducted Sibelius in Vienna after the war the concerts were half empty so the Viennese didn't appreciate any nationalist tendencies they just didn't like the music


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 31
LP#139 007 (39 007)*









*Bach, Orchestral Suites Nos. 2-3 (BWV1067-1068)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-24 August 1964
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hand Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:05

*Review: *While not reaching the depths of crapulence that Brandenburgs 3 and 6 did, this is still a somewhat soupy recording. It seems as though balancing the strings with the harpsichord was a challenge in this venue for these engineers. The flute comes through nicely, though. Tempii are slow compared to modern HIP standards.

The 1st movement of the 2nd suite is filled with drama and pathos. But should it be? Subsequent movements pick up the pace a tad and sound a bit more "Bach." Things finish on a peppy note, making the 2nd suite quite inconsistent. I'd rate it a 6/10.

The 3rd suite has a somewhat better beginning than the second, starting out mushy but resolving into a clearer tone by the end of the first movement. The "Air" movement is... slow. It's beautiful, very heavy on the strings, and the harpsichord sounds like it's in the next room behind a closed door. I'm torn between annoyance over the harpsichord and pleasure at the beautiful strings. The latter movements are a bit crowded but less so. Overall the whole thing is mediocre, 6/10.
*
Overall Rating: 6/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 32
LP#139 001 (39 001)
*







*
Schubert, Symphony No. 8 "Unfinished," D759
Beethoven, Overtures Fidelio, op. 72b; Leonore III, op. 72a; Coriolan, op. 62 
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27 October 1964 (Sym. 8) 21-22 September 1965 (overtures)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 55:02

*Review: *The Schubert 8th is a relatively peppy interpretation that has a good deal of drama. The sound does not bowl me over, though. The bass is a bit flabby. The tympani are a bit recessed in the mix for me as well. Still, this one has some fire in the first movement and some stately beauty in the second. I think HvK/BPO's Schubert 8 for EMI is better recorded and is to be recommended over this one.

As for the overtures, they are clearer-textured and very pleasing. All three are replete with Beethovenian drama and pulse. The brass are featured to very stirring effect. 
HVK/BPO recorded each of these again in the 80s, with much better sonics and brisker interpretations. I think the 80s for all three are to be recommended over these. They are available on the 80s Beethoven Symphony 8 disc. They are really significantly better. If you'd like to compare them, here is a YouTube link with all three: 




*Overall Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 32
> LP#139 001 (39 001)
> *
> View attachment 136427
> 
> *
> Schubert, Symphony No. 8 "Unfinished," D759
> Beethoven, Overtures Fidelio, op. 72b; Leonore III, op. 72a; Coriolan, op. 62
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27 October 1964 (Sym. 8) 21-22 September 1965 (overtures)
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 55:02
> 
> *Review: *The Schubert 8th is a relatively peppy interpretation that has a good deal of drama. The sound does not bowl me over, though. The bass is a bit flabby. The tympani are a bit recessed in the mix for me as well. Still, this one has some fire in the first movement and some stately beauty in the second. I think HvK/BPO's Schubert 8 for EMI is better recorded and is to be recommended over this one.
> 
> As for the overtures, they are clearer-textured and very pleasing. All three are replete with Beethovenian drama and pulse. The brass are featured to very stirring effect.
> HVK/BPO recorded each of these again in the 80s, with much better sonics and brisker interpretations. I think the 80s for all three are to be recommended over these. They are available on the 80s Beethoven Symphony 8 disc. They are really significantly better. If you'd like to compare them, here is a YouTube link with all three:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Overall Rating: 7/10*
> 
> *Videos:*


I rate this unfinished higher than you do. Can you just say what you mean by 'Peppy' as you have used it a few times?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> I rate this unfinished higher than you do. Can you just say what you mean by 'Peppy' as you have used it a few times?


Fast and lively, compared to other versions I own.

FWIW, I like the interpretation quite a bit. It's the recorded sound that drags it down. The EMI is better. It remains to be seen for me whether the same is true of 9, which I won't get to for a while (it's disc 68).


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 33
LP#139 002 (39 002)*








*
Mozart, Symphonies 29 (K201) and 33 (K319)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-23 August 1965
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 41:11

Review: This is certainly better than the Bach, but it suffers from some of the same issues that the other St. Moritz recordings do. It's rather hissy and not very detailed. This gauzy quality makes the slow movements feel pokey and sleepy. With that said, they're fine enough renditions for what they are. They're not overdone instrumentally and they retain a Mozartean lilt to them.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 34
LP#139 003 (39 003)
*








*Bartok, Concerto for Orchestra, Sz 116
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 20-21 September and 9 November 
1965 
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 39:00

*Review: * My oh my, thank _goodness _we're back at the church for recording. It's like a filter has been taken off the music, like cotton has been pulled from my ears. Bartok's concerto is not my favorite piece of music by any stretch, but this rendition does give it a comprehensible structure, especially in the 2nd and 3rd movements. The strings sound wonderful and the percussion is clear, providing a nice tension to the proceedings. The 5th movement provides a nice, rousing conclusion. All in all, a lovely record.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 34
> LP#139 003 (39 003)
> *
> View attachment 136509
> 
> 
> *Bartok, Concerto for Orchestra, Sz 116
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> *
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 20-21 September and 9 November
> 1965
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 39:00
> 
> *Review: * My oh my, thank _goodness _we're back at the church for recording. It's like a filter has been taken off the music, like cotton has been pulled from my ears. Bartok's concerto is not my favorite piece of music by any stretch, but this rendition does give it a comprehensible structure, especially in the 2nd and 3rd movements. The strings sound wonderful and the percussion is clear, providing a nice tension to the proceedings. The 5th movement provides a nice, rousing conclusion. All in all, a lovely record.
> *
> Overall Rating: 8/10*
> 
> *Videos:*


I have the 1950s version with the Philharmonia which is superb.


----------



## bharbeke

I am trying some of the higher rated recordings in this thread. The Sibelius violin concerto, which I had heard once before from someone else and disliked, sounded good this time around.

The Dvorak Symphony No. 9 is indeed a great performance.


----------



## Knorf

bharbeke said:


> I am trying some of the higher rated recordings in this thread. The Sibelius violin concerto, which I had heard once before from someone else and disliked, sounded good this time around.


Isn't it funny how that works? I always make it a point to occasionally revisit highly-praised recordings that I decided I disliked.

And of course sometimes the opposite happens.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 35
LP#139 004 (39 004)*









*Mozart, Serenade No. 13 "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" K525
Divertimento No. 15 K287
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-21 August 1965
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 54:34
*
Review: *Well, we're back in St. Moritz. Perhaps different choices were made, perhaps it's the nature of the piece, but things don't sound as bad as the Bach. Bass tones are deep but stay (just barely) on the happy side of controlled and uncrowded. Detail is good. Serenade 13 is a lively reading that maintains good clarity. Divertimento 15 is a bit busier in terms of orchestration, and the acoustics are less favorable to it.

Karajan and the BPO recorded the same two pieces digitally to one CD album in the 80s. It is slightly but not an order of magnitude slower in both pieces. It is also considerably clearer and more balanced, and is recommended for those reasons. 
*
Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 36
LP#139 008 (39 008)*









*Mozart, Divertimento No. 17 K334
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-23 August 1965
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 47:53
*
Review:* This is the best Mozart platter produced in this set so far. Instrument groups are well balanced and the sound quality is relatively clear throughout. The piece itself is played well, and contains both a lilting fun in the outer movements and some drama in the inner movements.

*Overall Rating: 8/10*
*
Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 37
LP#139 009 (39 009)*








*
R. Strauss, Don Quixote, op. 35
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Pierre Fournier, cello
Guisto Cappone, viola*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27-30 December 1965
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans WeberBalance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 44:06
*
Review:* Yet again, a Jesus-Christus recording mops the floor with the preceding St. Moritz one. The clarity, resonance, and dynamic range are off the charts in comparison. Absolutely beautiful. Fournier's cello playing is top shelf in the middle sections. The BPO plays wonderfully in accompaniment, especially the percussion. The wind machine in Variation 7 is ridiculous, but also fun. HvK re-recorded this with the BPO digitally in the 80s. That is also a lovely rendition, but I think this recording is good enough and the cello playing is slightly better, so this one still gets the nod. I do not have the 70s EMI recording with Rostropovich (alas. It is on Youtube presently: 



).

This, though, is a terrific record and I can't see knocking it for, well, anything. As sometimes happens, I decided to just start it on my way to bed and then was simply grabbed and compelled to listen all the way through.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


----------



## Knorf

The EMI _Don Quixote_ with Rostropovich is fabulous, but I do very much like this one as well.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 37
> LP#139 009 (39 009)*
> 
> View attachment 136609
> 
> *
> R. Strauss, Don Quixote, op. 35
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Pierre Fournier, cello
> Guisto Cappone, viola*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 27-30 December 1965
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans WeberBalance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 44:06
> *
> Review:* Yet again, a Jesus-Christus recording mops the floor with the preceding St. Moritz one. The clarity, resonance, and dynamic range are off the charts in comparison. Absolutely beautiful. Fournier's cello playing is top shelf in the middle sections. The BPO plays wonderfully in accompaniment, especially the percussion. The wind machine in Variation 7 is ridiculous, but also fun. HvK re-recorded this with the BPO digitally in the 80s. That is also a lovely rendition, but I think this recording is good enough and the cello playing is slightly better, so this one still gets the nod. I do not have the 70s EMI recording with Rostropovich (alas. It is on Youtube presently:
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> This, though, is a terrific record and I can't see knocking it for, well, anything. As sometimes happens, I decided to just start it on my way to bed and then was simply grabbed and compelled to listen all the way through.
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos: *


Yes terrific recording. Fournier makes cello talk.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 38
LP#139 010 (39 010)*









*Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition (orch. Ravel)
Ravel, Bolero
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4/9 November 1965 (Pictures), 14/17/19 March 1966 (Bolero)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber (pictures), Otto Ernst Wohlert (Bolero)
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:03

*Review: *This rendition of Pictures is really excellent, and I daresay helped me to truly get into it for the first time. The sound quality is stellar. The playing of the BPO provides each vignette with the mood it requires, and the fanfare has rarely sounded better than through the famed BPO brass. HvK recorded this again digitally with the BPO in the 80s. That version is brisker by a significant margin, but oddly sounds less urgent. They playing is of a high quality but doesn't quite match the 60s, and the 60s has equal or better sound, thus retaining the ultimate recommendation. As far as Bolero goes, well, it's Bolero. There is an admirable climb in dynamic range from the softest to the loudest portion. Karajan keeps the BPO on a metronomic tempo. The sound is quite fine. All in all, a ravishing "Pictures" and... Bolero. I didn't expect to like this as much as I did, but Pictures really clicked for me with this recording. As an aside, I love this cover art.

*Overall Rating: 9/10*
*
Videos:
*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 39
LP#139 011 (39 011)*








*
Bruckner, Symphony 9
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 15-19 March 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 59:40

*Review: *This Bruckner 9th is a titanic account, which fits the bill in my book. I think a Bruckner symphony should be like climbing a mountain, reaching heights of danger and ecstasy with the climaxes. I think HvK and the BPO agree with me. Anyway, the sound quality here is great. HvK/BPO recorded this again in 1975, and that version is on the new Hi-Res Bruckner cycle release. The 1975 is barely slower, the 1966 contains a slightly more pronounced analog hiss. I can't decide between the two. They're fundamentally similar, and fundamentally great. A listener wouldn't go wrong with either one.

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

*Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 40
LP#139 012 (39 012)*









*Handel, Concerti Grossi (op. 6) Nos. 5,12 & 10
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
Michael Schwalbe, violin
Hanns-Joachim Westphal, violin
Ottomar Borwitzky, cello
Karl Scheit, Friedrich Fischer, lutes
Fritz Helmis, harp
Edith Picht-Axenfeld, Herbert von Karajan, harpsichord

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-23 August 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 54:58

*Review: *This has been the biggest shock of the set for me, because of my relatively dim view of the other St. Moritz recordings, and my quite dim view of HvK's Bach. But man, do I love this recording. It's exciting where the Bach is turgid, the harpsichord is clear and centered, the overall sound world is nicely textured. Maybe the engineers figured some things out from their previous Summer to this one? Maybe doubling the harpsichord gave it a bigger presence in the mix? Whatever it is, I can't get enough of these Concerti Grossi. So far, the highlight of the 60s set for me.

*Overall Rating: 10/10
*
*Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 41
LP#139 013 (39 013)









Mozart, Divertimento No. 11 K251, No. 10 K247
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Lothar Koch, oboe (No. 11)*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-21 August 1965
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:39

*Review:* I'm almost ready to declare DG's St. Moritz problems solved. While this still doesn't reach the heights of the Jesus-Christus-Kirche's acoustics, this recording is clear and engaging overall. These Divertimenti are beautifully played and contain a world of Mozart - light and fun, austere and stately, even a bit sad (in a good way) and elegiac at times. 
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 34
LP#139 014 (39 014)*









*Johan Strauss II:
An der schonen blauen Donau, op. 314
Kaiserwalzer, op. 437
Annen-Polka, op. 117
Die Fledermaus: Overture, op. 362
Trisch-Tratsch Polka, op. 214
Der Zigeunerbaron: Overture
Perpetuum mobile, op. 257

Johan Strauss I: Radetzky Marsch, op. 229

Josef Strauss: Delirien, op. 212
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-29 December 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Hans Peter Schweigmann
Total time: 57:56
*
Review:* Recording quality varies from very good to quite wonderful on this set of warhorses. There is commendable dynamic range from soft to loud. As there is no great interpretive leaping to do here, sound quality is what to go for, and I do think the sound on HvK/BPO's digital recordings is better (expecially on Blue Danube). That's not to say this set is bad in any way. I would say that the Fledermaus Overture is the highlight sonically as well as emotionally. This is certainly an estimable collection played with good drive.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*





I'll include bare links for the rest:


----------



## Eclectic Al

I commend you for your stamina, and note that there have been no responses to the Strauss review yet (beyond the like for the post). I must admit that I can't really see the point of Strauss - but then I'm a humourless, serious sort of a guy.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> I commend you for your stamina, and note that there have been no responses to the Strauss review yet (beyond the like for the post). I must admit that I can't really see the point of Strauss - but then I'm a humourless, serious sort of a guy.


It is pleasant music. Is that enough? Sure, I guess. It depends on what you're after. It's good dinner music, you know? I wouldn't put on Sibelius for dinner, but I love it late at night over headphones.

I think the same could be said for a lot of Mozart, frankly.


----------



## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> It is pleasant music. Is that enough? Sure, I guess. It depends on what you're after. It's good dinner music, you know? I wouldn't put on Sibelius for dinner, but I love it late at night over headphones.
> 
> I think the same could be said for a lot of Mozart, frankly.


Aha. I think that comment about Mozart might stir some reactions. Personally I agree, and don't understand why the great 3 seems to be Bach (tick), Beethoven (tick) and Mozart (????). If you feel the need to stick to the letter B then it's Brahms who completes the triumvirate, and if other letters are permitted then Haydn. Cue off-topic mayhem.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> It is pleasant music. Is that enough? Sure, I guess. It depends on what you're after. It's good dinner music, you know? I wouldn't put on Sibelius for dinner, but I love it late at night over headphones.
> 
> I think the same could be said for a lot of Mozart, frankly.


Some Mozart. Don't forget the divertimenti, etc, were written as background music. But because they were written by the greatest genius of all they are worth hearing


----------



## Knorf

Mozart's "lighter " music, the divertimenti and so on, absolutely transcend the genre, which is why they're still performed and much loved. They aren't the symphonies, piano concertos, operas, string quartets, etc., but no on pretends they are. And we have those "serious" genres from him, too, some of the best examples ever written by anyone.

As for the Johann and Josef Strausses: that music is superb for what it is, unpretentious and utterly charming, not to mention superbly crafted. I enjoy it greatly from time to time, and definitely get why the Viennese treasure it so much.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Oh, I'm not bagging on Mozart. I definitely hold him to be in the "top three" (or at the very least, top 5). But a lot of Mozart is simply well-crafted, peppy, pleasant background music. I'm just saying that there can be different motives for listening, and "because I want something pleasant or amusing" is just as valid as "because I want to ponder what it is to be human."


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> ... I'm just saying that there can be different motives for listening, and "because I want something pleasant or amusing" is just as valid as "because I want to ponder what it is to be human."


Sure, I agree. Well said!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 43
LP#139 016 (39 016)









Sibelius, Finlandia, op. 26
Valse triste, op. 44/1
The Swan of Tuonela, op. 22/3
Tapiola, op. 122*

New material recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 30 January 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 43:53

*Review:* I am going to admit here that I bear some animus towards this record. Only one of the four pieces here, Valse triste, is newly recorded (the other three are extras on the Sibelius symphony discs). This is a pretty poor value proposition for the consumer, especially given that there are a good twelve possible minutes left on the album to record an additional tone poem, such as the Lemminkeinen Suite. Or, say, just devoting the whole disc to Pelleas et Melisande and Valse triste.

All right, Anyway, it's a perfectly fine recording, with lovely playing on all four pieces. The sound quality is good with minimal (though still present) hiss in the quiet portions. There is an 80s version of this disc, with the same 4 pieces, which has superior sound quality.

Overall Rating if this weren't a double dip: 9/10
*Overall rating since this is a double dip: 5/10*

*Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 44
LP#139 017 (39 017)*








*
Tchaikovsky, Symphony 4, op. 36
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 7/8/15 October 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 41:46
*
Review:* This is a very good recording of Tchaikovsky's 4th. It's exciting and brisk in the outer movements, beautifully moving in the second, playful in the third. Symphonies 4-6 are works that HvK did in all three decades for DG, the first two with the BPO, the last with the VPO. Both of the latter versions have significantly better sound in terms of dynamic range and clarity between instrument groups. I wonder if recording technology did not allow the 2nd to start out so quietly. So there is a slightly unpleasant edge to the 60s proceedings that comes from making piano passages just as loud as later ones. To be fair, if you hadn't compared them, you probably wouldn't notice and just get lost in the piece. I think the 70s/BPO and 80s/VPO are probably equal recordings. The 70s is available in hi-res with all 6 symphonies on Blu-Ray disc, though, so that gets the nod from me.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 45
LP#139 018 (39 018)*








*
Tchaikovsky, Symphony 4, op. 36
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22/24/27 September 1965, 8 November 1965
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 48:44
*
Review:* The playing here is of a high caliber, but the recording sounds its age a bit in terms of analog noise. Louder passages fare better and the noise is obscured. Of the three DG accounts (again, BPO on the first two, VPO on the last), here the 1970s stands out quite strongly. The playing is at the same exciting, thrilling level of the 60s, but the sound is light years better. The VPO version is fine but is just a tad sedate comparatively.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:*


----------



## The3Bs

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 25
> LP#138 961 (18 961)
> *
> View attachment 136154
> 
> 
> *Sibelius, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 47
> Finlandia, op. 26
> Christian Ferras, vioin (concerto)
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> *
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-30 October 1964
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 42:59
> 
> *Review: *All right, I said that the more critical reviews were coming, and now is.... not the time for one. Deal with it! Sweet merciful crap, this is a stunning platter. Ferras' playing is out of this world on the concerto. The textures the BPO conjures behind him are just magical, in the best Sibelian sense of the word. As far as I can tell, Karajan never recorded this work again. I'd like to think it's because he knew there was simply no way to better this account. The Finlandia is also the best account I've heard, and I've heard a good half dozen. The sound quality overall on this disc is spellbinding. An absolute triumph.
> *
> Rating: 10/10*
> *
> Video: *


Listen to this last night...
What I liked: the orchestral weight that maanges to build a very nice vehicle for Mr Ferras to shine. The latter does indeed plays it beautifully...

However, is it just me, or do I detect that the recording/remastering does portray a sense of being played in a very big space ... there is too much added spacial reverberation that make me feel they were playing in a big cavern.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

The3Bs said:


> Listen to this last night...
> What I liked: the orchestral weight that maanges to build a very nice vehicle for Mr Ferras to shine. The latter does indeed plays it beautifully...
> 
> However, is it just me, or do I detect that the recording/remastering does portray a sense of being played in a very big space ... there is too much added spacial reverberation that make me feel they were playing in a big cavern.


I did not get the impression of any added reverb. The JCK is a rather large recording venue with a high ceiling. Maybe that's it?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 46
LP#139 020









Shostakovich, Symphony 10, op. 93
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-30 December 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:26

*Review: *The music is what it is, alternately beguiling and thrilling. The BPO does both well, but really excels in the forte passages. I can compare this to Michael Sanderling and the Dresdner Philharmonie, and though that 2019 recording is far better technically, this one does possess somewhat more drama throughout. HvK and the BPO recorded this again in the 80s, and that digital recording is quite a bit cleaner in terms of noise with less reverb, probably owing to the Philharmonie vs. the Jesus-Christus-Kirche. Comparing the two artistically, I think they are both roughly equal accounts. So the recommendation is based on whether you want a reverberant church hall sound, or a leaner (but still weighty) concert hall sound. For my part, I prefer the 80s slightly, but found the 60s quite involving nonetheless.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 47
LP#139 021









Beethoven, Violin Concerto op. 61
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Christian Ferras, violin*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 25-26 January 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:35

*Review: *Looks like I'm going to be praising another Christian Ferras recording. His playing is terrific, and the BPO are perfectly modulated behind him. I think what really stands about about Ferras is the way he can attack a line without making it screech, and his control of volume to the same effect. The violin always sounds under control, expressing only what he wishes it to, nothing more. The rendition of the concerto is exciting but also tender when needed. HvK and the BPO recorded this again in 1980 with Anne-Sophie Mutter, but the 60s recording tops it. She plays it very well, but there are occasional "over the top" screeches. The BPO is also a bit less brisk on the attack.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 47
> LP#139 021
> 
> View attachment 136879
> 
> 
> Beethoven, Violin Concerto op. 61
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Christian Ferras, violin*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 25-26 January 1967
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 46:35
> 
> *Review: *Looks like I'm going to be praising another Christian Ferras recording. His playing is terrific, and the BPO are perfectly modulated behind him. I think what really stands about about Ferras is the way he can attack a line without making it screech, and his control of volume to the same effect. The violin always sounds under control, expressing only what he wishes it to, nothing more. The rendition of the concerto is exciting but also tender when needed. HvK and the BPO recorded this again in 1980 with Anne-Sophie Mutter, but the 60s recording tops it. She plays it very well, but there are occasional "over the top" screeches. The BPO is also a bit less brisk on the attack.
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


I would not write this recording as highly as you do as the tempo for the first movement always seems too slow. The recording with Mutter moves more freely imo.


----------



## JAS

This appears to be a very hefty investment, one which neither my current finances nor even more limited shelf space will permit. I do appreciate the survey.


----------



## DavidA

DavidA said:


> I would not write this recording as highly as you do as the tempo for the first movement always seems too slow. The recording with Mutter moves more freely imo.


Sorry I meant 'rate'. In the performance with Mutter Karajan is brisker. I wonder who set the tempi?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 48
LP#139 022*









*Rimsky-Korsakov, Scheherazade op. 35
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Michael Schwalbe, violin*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 26-31 January 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:38

*Review: *This is one of those rare works that HvK/BPO seem to have only recorded once for DG, and as far as I can tell, for anyone. I see no EMI or Philharmonia recordings. Perhaps it wasn't to his liking? Anyway, the orchestra as a whole renders it nicely, with drama and drive. I find Schwalbe's violin playing on some of the solos veering a tad into screechiness and melodrama - of which the latter certainly seems to suit the subject matter, but the former does not. I can't stay mad at the violin for long, though, as the string work and the brass of the BPO are tremendous: especially in the second movement for the strings, where they deliver beautiful textures; and in the fourth for the brass, who punctuate the climax wonderfully. All in all, not my favorite - I do love the cover, though.
*
Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 49
LP#139 023*








*
Beethoven, Piano Concerto No. 1 op. 15
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Christoph Eschenbach, piano*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 30 November-1 December, 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 42:27

*Review:* This is the first in what appears to be an aborted series for DG. HvK/BPO later recorded all five piano concertos with pianist Alexis Weissenberg for EMI. This is a fine recording with good balance between the piano and the orchestra. The overall sound quality is pretty good, with some tape hiss in quiet moments. Comparing the two, the differences are mainly aural - the EMI seems to have the piano closer miked, which makes it more "poppy" through speakers (by which I mean it sounds closer and threatens more to "blow them out" though it never does). The BPO is also a little more aggressive in the EMI (which seems to be the case in every HvK/BPO recording for EMI from my experience, though I may be wrong). I think I may slightly prefer the EMI, but it is not a runaway at all. This is a good rendition on disc.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10
*
*Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 48
> LP#139 022*
> 
> View attachment 137009
> 
> 
> *Rimsky-Korsakov, Scheherazade op. 35
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Michael Schwalbe, violin*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 26-31 January 1967
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 46:38
> 
> *Review: *This is one of those rare works that HvK/BPO seem to have only recorded once for DG, and as far as I can tell, for anyone. I see no EMI or Philharmonia recordings. Perhaps it wasn't to his liking? Anyway, the orchestra as a whole renders it nicely, with drama and drive. I find Schwalbe's violin playing on some of the solos veering a tad into screechiness and melodrama - of which the latter certainly seems to suit the subject matter, but the former does not. I can't stay mad at the violin for long, though, as the string work and the brass of the BPO are tremendous: especially in the second movement for the strings, where they deliver beautiful textures; and in the fourth for the brass, who punctuate the climax wonderfully. All in all, not my favorite - I do love the cover, though.
> *
> Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos:*


This was a recording that Karajan did to please the accountants at DG, I have it and although quite good it was not really his thing.,


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 50
LP#139 028*








*
Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra op. 35
Capriccio Italien, op. 45
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Christian Ferras, violin (concerto)*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 6-8 November 1965, 13 October 1966 (Capriccio)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:46

*Review:* If you came here looking for criticism of another Karajan/BPO/Ferras effort you won't find it here. This is an absolutely splendid recording. Dynamic range from soft to booming is great. Analog hiss is minimal. The balance between the violin and orchestra is perfect. The bass section provides an amazing sonic ground for the high flying solo work. The interpretation is exciting. Ferras' playing is out of this world. I was particularly spellbound by the middle of the first movement, starting around 8:07 in the appended video. Another triumph. The Capriccio Italien is also a sterling rendition with excellent sound. There is an 80s recording of the concerto with Mutter, but the 60s version is altogether superior, even when accounting for the more modern sound quality.

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

*Videos: *


----------



## bharbeke

Thanks for the Bruckner 9 write-up. I had only heard the Abbado recording before, and I had labeled it as boring. Karajan and the BPO took it up a notch to the point where I like the symphony now.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> Thanks for the Bruckner 9 write-up. I had only heard the Abbado recording before, and I had labeled it as boring. Karajan and the BPO took it up a notch to the point where I like the symphony now.


Wow! How did you listen? YouTube or some other means? Bruckner 9 was apparently a specialty of HvK/BPO. They play it with great intensity and a palpable sense of structure.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 51-52
LP#SKL 195-196 (2707 030)









Beethoven, Missa Solemnis op. 123
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Viener Singverein
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Christa Ludwig, contralto
Fritz Wunderlich, tenor
Walter Berry, bass*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 21-28 February 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:33 (disc 1), 34:20 (disc 2)
*
Review:* One of the pleasures of an (insane?) project like this is revisiting works I passed over in my first deep dive. I just wasn't into choral stuff, I thought. It even took me a while to get into Beethoven's 9th. But I've come around a bit, and I can see the beauties of a piece like this. I like the way the chorus is treated as a part of the orchestra, the way they are melded together. The soloists are quite good, of course. Sound quality is excellent, with no undue hiss or mushiness. Everything hits the delicate balance between the acoustics of the JCK and clarity. There is real drama and emotion contained herein, as well. As far as alternative recordings, there is a 1958 with the VPO, and an 80s digital recording with the BPO. I can only compare to the latter. The latter is similarly filled with drama and exultation, with a bit less reverb. Honestly, they're pretty close, and either would serve someone well.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 51-52
> LP#SKL 195-196 (2707 030)
> 
> View attachment 137137
> 
> 
> Beethoven, Missa Solemnis op. 123
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Viener Singverein
> Gundula Janowitz, soprano
> Christa Ludwig, contralto
> Fritz Wunderlich, tenor
> Walter Berry, bass*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 21-28 February 1966
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:33 (disc 1), 34:20 (disc 2)
> *
> Review:* One of the pleasures of an (insane?) project like this is revisiting works I passed over in my first deep dive. I just wasn't into choral stuff, I thought. It even took me a while to get into Beethoven's 9th. But I've come around a bit, and I can see the beauties of a piece like this. I like the way the chorus is treated as a part of the orchestra, the way they are melded together. The soloists are quite good, of course. Sound quality is excellent, with no undue hiss or mushiness. Everything hits the delicate balance between the acoustics of the JCK and clarity. There is real drama and emotion contained herein, as well. As far as alternative recordings, there is a 1958 with the VPO, and an 80s digital recording with the BPO. I can only compare to the latter. The latter is similarly filled with drama and exultation, with a bit less reverb. Honestly, they're pretty close, and either would serve someone well.
> *
> Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos: *


This is probably still the stand-out recording of the work. A karajan speciality which caught the spirituality of Beethoven's vision. The soloists are quite good? Utterly outstanding I would say! Better than on any other recording, a must for this work.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 53-54
LP# 643 515-6 (2707 044)









Haydn, Die Schopfung, Hob. XXI:2

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Christa Ludwig, contralto
Fritz Wunderlich, tenor
Werner Krenn, tenor
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone
Walter Berry, bass
Ottomar Borwitzky, cello continuo
Joseph Nebois, harpsichord*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22-28 February 1966, 26-30 September 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 38:53 (disc 1), 69:46 (disc 2)

*Review:* Let me tell you what it is with choral music - solos can really grate on me, especially in the higher registers. But here, Janowitz and Ludwig are creamy and beautiful instead of shrill and piercing. The sound in this recording is stupendous. The orchestra complements the Wiener Singeverin and the soloists wonderfully. The harpsichord parts are clear. This is another piece that isn't in my regular rotation, in part because it's so stinking long, and in part due to the aforementioned distaste for choral music. I think what HvK/BPO/solosists/chorus achieve here is a synthesis of parts that makes it much more palatable for my tastes, and I really enjoyed my nearly two hours here. The 80s HvK/BPO recording is not as good as the 60s. The tempos are just too slow on some portions, and the singers aren't quite the match of the 60s crew. FYI, the reason there are two tenors here is that Wunderlich died in an accident at age 35 before recording sessions were finished.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 53-54
> LP# 643 515-6 (2707 044)
> 
> View attachment 137175
> 
> 
> Haydn, Die Schopfung, Hob. XXI:2
> 
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Wiener Singverein
> Gundula Janowitz, soprano
> Christa Ludwig, contralto
> Fritz Wunderlich, tenor
> Werner Krenn, tenor
> Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone
> Walter Berry, bass
> Ottomar Borwitzky, cello continuo
> Joseph Nebois, harpsichord*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22-28 February 1966, 26-30 September 1968
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 38:53 (disc 1), 69:46 (disc 2)
> 
> *Review:* Let me tell you what it is with choral music - solos can really grate on me, especially in the higher registers. But here, Janowitz and Ludwig are creamy and beautiful instead of shrill and piercing. The sound in this recording is stupendous. The orchestra complements the Wiener Singeverin and the soloists wonderfully. The harpsichord parts are clear. This is another piece that isn't in my regular rotation, in part because it's so stinking long, and in part due to the aforementioned distaste for choral music. I think what HvK/BPO/solosists/chorus achieve here is a synthesis of parts that makes it much more palatable for my tastes, and I really enjoyed my nearly two hours here. The 80s HvK/BPO recording is not as good as the 60s. The tempos are just too slow on some portions, and the singers aren't quite the match of the 60s crew. FYI, the reason there are two tenors here is that Wunderlich died in an accident at age 35 before recording sessions were finished.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos: *


One of Karajan's greatest recordings with fabulous soloists including the late great Wunderlich on top form.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> One of Karajan's greatest recordings with fabulous soloists including the late great Wunderlich on top form.


Absolutely, one of the most essential Karajan recordings and an obvious top choice in this work.


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## Knorf

DavidA said:


> One of Karajan's greatest recordings with fabulous soloists including the late great Wunderlich on top form.





Brahmsianhorn said:


> Absolutely, one of the most essential Karajan recordings and an obvious top choice in this work.


Wow, it's that good, huh? I've said before Karajan did well with Haydn, but I've never bothered to hear this recording. I'm getting the picture that this was an error.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

^Yup, it’s an all-around winner of a recording. I find it impossible to see how anyone could dislike it unless you were ridiculously in favor of HIP dogma. Along with Gardiner’s recording (which I think is close to perfect in its own way) I don’t see why you’d ever need anything more for this work...but it’s not a work I’ve done too much in-depth listening on.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

The only real rival for me musically is a live 1951 version conducted by Jochum featuring Irmgard Seefried and Hans Hotter. Clear but pretty distant sound quality.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 55
LP#139 029









Tchaikovsky, Overture solennelle "1812" op. 49
Marche slave op. 31
Fantasy Overture "Romeo and Juliet"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 12-13 October 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:35
*
Review: *Ugh. The 1812 overture is a putrid slog, and I don't mean just the piece itself. I think it has some charms. But this recording starts off with a choral part that builds to a shrieky finale. Then things proceed reasonably well, until the canned cannon sounds come in. They sound terrible. Once the bells start, I'm considering deleting this forever. Overall, a train wreck that is hard to listen to. Marche slave is a better piece than 1812, but it is played very over the top, and comes off the worse for it. The Romeo and Juliet is pretty good, but the bass is flabby and makes some of the other orchestral parts sound muddy as a result. The 1970s Marche slave is decisively better than this rendition, with better sound, wider dynamic range, and clearer, more well modulated textures. It is also available in 96/24 hi-res on the Blu-Ray Tchaikovsky cycle. The 1980s digital Romeo and Juliet is also better, with better integration of the orchestral sound. I don't yet have the 70s 1812 overture to compare. Avoid this disc. 
*
Overall Rating: 4/10

Videos: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 56
LP#139 030*









*Tchaikovsky, Serenade for String Orchestra, op. 48
The Nutcracker - Suite op. 71a
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 6&13 October 1966, 26 December 1963 (Nutcracker)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:13

*Review:* Vastly better than the previous Tchikovsky platter. The BPO's string section play's a whirwind allegro movement with aplomb. The Elegia is beautiful and sweeping. The finale is brisk and thrilling. The sound is pretty good but I could imagine it being clearer if it were in a different hall. The echoing quality covers some things up. The basses are nicely represented, though. All in all a very competent presentation of this work.

The Nutcracker is also briskly and beautifully done. The 60s account is faster than HvK/BPO's digital 80s account, but has more reverb. This serves it well in some areas but detracts in others. Overall the sound is pretty good, though, especially the percussion and the dynamic range. The Xylophone comes through quite clearly.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 57
LP#139 031*









*Giuseppe Verdi, La Traviata
Pietro Mascagni, Cavalleria Rusticana
Giacomo Puccini, Suor Angelica
Ruggiero Leoncavallo, Pagliacci
Modest Mussorgsky, Kovancina	
Giacomo Puccini, Manon Lescaut
Franz Schmidt, Notre Dame
Jules Massenet, Thaïs-Meditation
Umberto Giordano, Fedora
Francesco Cilea, Adriana Lecoivreur
Ermanno Wolf-Ferrari, I gioielle della Madonna
Pietro Mascagni, L'amico Fritz

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22-25 September 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 50:05

*Review: *While there isn't much negative to say about this compilation sonically (it's fine), I was not a big fan overall. It's akin to eating thirteen sugary desserts in a row. Waves of strings, weeping violins, more waves of strings, more weeping violins. Very tiring, tonally, after the first few. I wish some pieces with a bit more bite, percussion, brass, and darkness had been interspersed. This was not for me. It may be to others' liking.

*Overall Rating: 5/10

Videos: *


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> While there isn't much negative to say about this compilation sonically (it's fine), I was not a big fan overall. It's akin to eating thirteen sugary desserts in a row. Waves of strings, weeping violins, more waves of strings, more weeping violins. Very tiring, tonally, after the first few. I wish some pieces with a bit more bite, percussion, brass, and darkness had been interspersed. This was not for me. It may be to others' liking.


I can stomach performing concerts like this, if I'm getting paid, and then I act and play like I love every single sugary minute.

Listening to it? Uh, no.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 58
LP#139 032*









*Sibelius, Symphony 6 op. 104
Symphony 7 op. 105
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 18 April 1967 (6th) 20-21 September 1967 (7th)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:21

*Review: *Sibelius has vaulted into my personal top 3. I find his symphonies and tone poems to be in the same ballpark as a Brahms, Schubert, or Strauss. Maybe even Ludwig Van, if my mood is just so. So I own a few different cycles from a few different sources for comparison. This is the best 6th I own, and the best 7th as well.

What makes this recording of the 6th stand out is how well miked the tympani are, the way they echo the notes of the music being made very apparent. The other notable aspect is how clear the various orchestral textures are. HvK/BPO sometimes get a rap of "coldness" or "precision." I find it hard to imagine anyone applying those demerits to this record. The passion and romanticism oozes out of this, even as the icy textures of the Sibelian strings are preserved. HvK/BPO put out a near-full cycle for EMI, including the 6th. It is good, but not as good as this disc, for reasons of clarity. The bass on that disc occludes matters.

And as good as the 6th is, the 7th is even better. I've heard the 7th live from about the 5th row of the main floor at Chicago Symphony Center, which was an emotional experience. This recording captures that feeling and possibly more. The emotional climax of the first movement adagio (beginning around 4:00 in the appended video and climaxing at 5:15 or so) is just.... words escape me. Transcendent? The maelstrom from 11:25-13:20 is awesome (in the original sense of the word) and cosmic in proportion.

This recording is a triumph, and one of the two or three very best (if not the single best) of HvK/BPO in their 30 odd years of output.

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

Videos:


----------



## Eclectic Al

I obtained these recordings on a 2CD set which is still available featuring 4-7, Swan of Tuonela and Tapiola, admittedly partly duplicating an older disc with 4 and 6. Great discs.

Such a pity that he didn't record number 3 in this era. In comparison I could do without 1 and 2 (which I have on a compilation of the EMI recordings), and even number 5. For me (as no expert) you get to 6&7, and it's the culmination of a journey starting with number 3, and with 5 as a bit of a detour. Fancifully (I've never done it), you could listen to 3, 4, 6 and 7 as a symphony of symphonies. I think I might even listen in that order, with 3 as an innocent sounding opening "movement", 4 a searching slow movement, 6 a bit lighter (not quite a scherzo, but a bit intermezzo-like) and 7 as a peroration.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> I obtained these recordings on a 2CD set which is still available featuring 4-7, Swan of Tuonela and Tapiola, admittedly partly duplicating an older disc with 4 and 6. Great discs.
> 
> Such a pity that he didn't record number 3 in this era. In comparison I could do without 1 and 2 (which I have on a compilation of the EMI recordings), and even number 5. For me (as no expert) you get to 6&7, and it's the culmination of a journey starting with number 3, and with 5 as a bit of a detour. Fancifully (I've never done it), you could listen to 3, 4, 6 and 7 as a symphony of symphonies. I think I might even listen in that order, with 3 as an innocent sounding opening "movement", 4 a searching slow movement, 6 a bit lighter (not quite a scherzo, but a bit intermezzo-like) and 7 as a peroration.


I have the same set. When I do my Sibelius symphony listening, I almost always do the full cycle. None of them are terribly long, and even the more "patriotic" ones are still a part of his unique sound world.

My methodology is typically a franken-cycle - 1 & 2 from the Karajan EMI set, 3 from Colin Davis/LSO, (Occasionally Rattle/BPO), and 4 from Karajan EMI, 6-7 from Karajan DG.

My next project may be creating a Sibelius playlist sorted by Opus number.


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## Knorf

I actually prefer the EMI Sibelius 6, which is one of the most perfect recordings of Sibelius I know of. 

This is no way meant to slam the DG recording, which is most wonderful. 

I agree that it is to be regretted that Karajan never got to no. 3. It's such a superb symphony, and as critical a part of the cycle as Eclectic Al notes.


----------



## DavidA

Knorf said:


> I actually prefer the EMI Sibelius 6, which is one of the most perfect recordings of Sibelius I know of.
> 
> This is no way meant to slam the DG recording, which is most wonderful.
> 
> I agree that it is to be regretted that Karajan never got to no. 3. It's such a superb symphony, and as critical a part of the cycle as Eclectic Al notes.


I have Sibelius in a mixture of EMI and DG Karajan ranging from 1950s to 1970s. All from supernb to well worth hearing. No 3 with Davis from a charity shop for 50p and worth every penny!


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## Knorf

I do like muchly like the Sibelius 1-3 with Okko Kamu in the DG "Karajan Sibelius" box. Nos. 1-2 with Berlin, 3 with Helsinki. 4-7 Karajan, natch. The only thing I don't like is how the symphonies are chopped up over discs.


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## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> I do like muchly like the Sibelius 1-3 with Okko Kamu in the DG "Karajan Sibelius" box. Nos. 1-2 with Berlin, 3 with Helsinki. 4-7 Karajan, natch. The only thing I don't like is how the symphonies are chopped up over discs.


Agreed, I think the Kamu is very good on that collection. Great sound quality, lean, brisk interpretations.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 59
LP#139 033









Mozart, Serenade No. 6 K239
Divertimento No. 1, K136 (125a)
Divertimento No. 2, K137 (125b)
Divertimento No. 1, K138 (125c)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-19 August 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 44:10

*Review:* This album is delightful! Sound-wise, things are clear and detailed, with only a bit of hiss intruding in Div. 2. The basses and cellos are rich and resonant. Everything is so fleet and pleasant. It's astonishing that Mozart wrote these divertimenti at age 16, and they're excellent. Divertimento No. 1 is particularly pleasing, with the Presto really taking my breath away (9:59 in the appended video). Essentially, the Mozart recordings in this set have gotten better and better, and this is the best yet.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 60
LP#139 034









Brahms, Piano Concerto No. 2, op. 83
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Geza Anda, Piano*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 18-20 September 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 49:23
*
Review:* This piece and this recording just didn't do it for me. I can't say that the performance was bad in any way, though. Anda seems quite competent with the piano and the BPO provided good orchestral accompaniment. I think I did not respond to the interplay between the piano and the orchestra as the piece is written. Certain other piano concertos just speak to me more (e.g. Beethoven's 3rd, Tchaikovsky's 1st, Grieg). I found the overall sound quality here to be a bit gauzy as well, like there was a minor veil over the proceedings.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos: *


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I like the Richter-Haaser version of the Brahms concerto on EMI, if not as much as Gilels, Barenboim, or Richter.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 60
> LP#139 034
> 
> View attachment 137438
> 
> 
> Brahms, Piano Concerto No. 2, op. 83
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Geza Anda, Piano*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 18-20 September 1967
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 49:23
> *
> Review:* This piece and this recording just didn't do it for me. I can't say that the performance was bad in any way, though. Anda seems quite competent with the piano and the BPO provided good orchestral accompaniment. I think I did not respond to the interplay between the piano and the orchestra as the piece is written. Certain other piano concertos just speak to me more (e.g. Beethoven's 3rd, Tchaikovsky's 1st, Grieg). I found the overall sound quality here to be a bit gauzy as well, like there was a minor veil over the proceedings.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos: *


I have this version which I got at a charity shop. Pretty good. Anda was a fine pianist.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I like the Richter-Haaser version of the Brahms concerto on EMI, if not as much as Gilels, Barenboim, or Richter.


Gilles with Reiner is the one to have


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Gilles with Reiner is the one to have


I prefer Gilels/Jochum, but who am I to argue with objective fact?


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## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I prefer Gilels/Jochum, but who am I to argue with objective fact?


I like the Gilels/Jochum, but it's Fleisher/Szell for me.

You've been facted!


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I prefer Gilels/Jochum, but who am I to argue with objective fact?


I prefer it with Reiner as the speeds are generally swifter as Brahms indicated. But then who is Brahms to give his opinion?


----------



## Knorf

DavidA said:


> I prefer it with Reiner as the speeds are generally swifter as Brahms indicated. But then who is Brahms to give his opinion?


In the words of Pierre Boulez, "Composers' tempi are always wrong."


----------



## DavidA

Knorf said:


> In the words of Pierre Boulez, "Composers' tempi are always wrong."


I've got both versions and the Reiner version emerges for leaner and fitter. Jochum seems to drag the tempi back which is fatal in Brahms


----------



## bharbeke

Late response to question about Bruckner 9: I heard Karajan's version through the YouTube link provided in this thread.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 61
LP#139 035









Handel, Concerto Grossi, op. 6 (Nos. 6,4,2)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Edith Picht-Axford, Horst Gobel, harpsichord*

Recorded at Victoria Kinzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-22 August 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 45:58

*Review: *I didn't like this platter quite as much as the previous Concerto Grossi collection, mainly because 6 and 4 are among the more downbeat of the bunch. Number 2 has more pep in its step. All are beautifully played, and the Victoria Konzertsaal is again quite reverberant. This makes some of the slower numbers feel a bit draggy. Nonetheless, it's rewarding music, played about as well as I can imagine with modern instruments.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos: *(This one will require you to select from the time stamps for 6,4,2)


----------



## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> I've got both versions and the Reiner version emerges for leaner and fitter. *Jochum seems to drag the tempi back which is fatal in Brahms*


Can't say I've noticed that. Jochum is just a little relaxed while Reiner is more than a little driven (which really can be fatal for Brahms). This said, I like both but neither is in my top 3 for these concertos.


----------



## bharbeke

The Tchaikovsky Marche Slav really worked for me.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Enthusiast said:


> Can't say I've noticed that. Jochum is just a little relaxed while *Reiner is more than a little driven (which really can be fatal for Brahms)*. This said, I like both but neither is in my top 3 for these concertos.


Lol Thank you!!!! It's even worse with the Heifetz Violin Concerto, my favorite work of which I've collected 163 different versions.

I love the magisterial way Jochum conducts both concertos with Gilels. There is a reason why these recordings have such enduring acclaim through the years. For example, the shift to D major in the second movement of No. 2 sounds powerful and grand, as it should.

But this is all just my opinion. Others are armed with facts with which no one can argue, because they are factual.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Lol Thank you!!!! It's even worse with the Heifetz Violin Concerto, my favorite work of which I've collected 163 different versions.
> 
> I love the magisterial way Jochum conducts both concertos with Gilels. There is a reason why these recordings have such enduring acclaim through the years. For example, the shift to D major in the second movement of No. 2 sounds powerful and grand, as it should.
> 
> But this is all just my opinion. Others are armed with facts with which no one can argue, because they are factual.


The facts are that with Reiner it sounds a tauter work. Just my opinion. Actually the Reiner is a much admired version. I can remember years ago it was picked by BBC record review as the version to have. That is factual btw. The later Jochum recording is spacious, stoic, and powerful but this this much earlier reading possessed all these qualities but in a more urgent performance. Of course this is just my opinion but it seems there are quite a few who agree. Interesting that the deeply soulful playing of cellist Janos Starker in the slow movement may have created the most touching Andante ever recorded.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Interesting that the deeply soulful playing of cellist Janos Starker in the slow movement may have created the most touching Andante ever recorded.


I have dozens of versions of this work, and I like them all for different reasons, including Gilels/Reiner.

But if there is one particular spot where for me Gilels/Jochum trumps all others, it is the end of the Andante where we reach harmonic resolution with the descending line of the cello. In this version it is absolutely sublime.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I have dozens of versions of this work, and I like them all for different reasons, including Gilels/Reiner.
> 
> But if there is one particular spot where for me Gilels/Jochum trumps all others, it is the end of the Andante where we reach harmonic resolution with the descending line of the cello. In this version it is absolutely sublime.


And no doubt you would list all the versions you have if required!

However, as this is about Karajan we won't go there!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 62
LP#139 036









Handel, Concerto Grossi, op. 6 (Nos. 7,3,9)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Edith Picht-Axford, Horst Gobel, harpsichord*

Recorded at Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-22 August 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 45:58

*Review: *This disc pleases me more than the last one, because in my opinion the pace and tone of these particular concertos are better suited to the arrangements and acoustics. The harpsichord is more forward in these three concertos, and the pace is lighter and more fun. The overall acoustic qualities are very pleasing. As a whole, HvK/BPO's Handel Concerto Grossi have been a ton of fun. They surmount all of the difficulties that their Bach counterparts suffered from, and, while perhaps not "period" in the way Hipsters might prefer (I do not use this as a term of derision in the slightest) they still preserve, albeit with modern instruments, the baroque feel of the compositions.

*Overall Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:* (This one will require you to select from the time stamps for Nos. 7 and 9, please see the previous review's video for No. 3.)


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 63
LP#139 037*









*Liszt, Les Preludes
Liszt, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 S359/2
Smetana, Ma vlast (Vysehrad & Vltava/Die Moldau)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 14-17 April 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:39
*
Review: *This recording of Les Preludes is pretty good. The climax is appropriately grand, with good percussion and balance between orchestral parts. There is an 80s recording which is slightly faster, and has clearer sound. There is not a vast gulf between them, but I would say the slight preference goes to the 80s if you prefer the sound of brass and strings, the 60s if you want more forward miking of percussion. The Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 is pretty amazing as far as a whirlwind of sound goes. It is excellently recorded, with superb capturing of the plucked strings. The Smetana is the best I've heard, and the aforementioned percussion is used to great effect. There is an 80s Moldau as well, but it is pretty comparable and offers nothing to prefer or decline it over the 60s (here in the 60s disc the Moldau is presented with its companion Vysehrad, which is nice).

All in all, a pretty great platter of Slavic music. 
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


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## bharbeke

The Tchaikovsky Nutcracker Suite and Mozart Serenade No. 6 were both outstanding performances.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 64
LP#139 040









Mozart, Concertos for Horn and Orchestra, Nos. 1-4 (K412,417,447,495)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Gerd Seifert, horn*

Recorded at Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 18-22 August 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:25
*
Review: *Well, this is a lot of horn. Too much horn for my taste, personally. I find horn to be one of those instruments that can be a bit monotone, at least when featured at length (I love what it can bring to a fully orchestrated piece, however). With that said, the playing of both horn and orchestra display a high degree of technical excellence. Concerto 3 is especially pleasing in its orchestral parts and I would say it's the best of the bunch on this disc. So while this is not my bag, I can't really fault any one aspect of it beyond my own taste.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos: *


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 64
> LP#139 040
> 
> View attachment 137690
> 
> 
> Mozart, Concertos for Horn and Orchestra, Nos. 1-4 (K412,417,447,495)
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Gerd Seifert, horn*
> 
> Recorded at Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 18-22 August 1968
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 56:25
> *
> Review: *Well, this is a lot of horn. Too much horn for my taste, personally. I find horn to be one of those instruments that can be a bit monotone, at least when featured at length (I love what it can bring to a fully orchestrated piece, however). With that said, the playing of both horn and orchestra display a high degree of technical excellence. Concerto 3 is especially pleasing in its orchestral parts and I would say it's the best of the bunch on this disc. So while this is not my bag, I can't really fault any one aspect of it beyond my own taste.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 8/10
> 
> Videos: *


One thing we have to remember when we are collecting recordings is that Mozart did not expect us to listen to all four horn concertos at once sitting as we tend to when we are listening to recordings. I don't know these DG discs but the recordings Karajan made with a Brain are absolutely classic. But then again a natural horn with original instrument brings out something completely different so that is worth investigating too


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 65
LP#139 041*








*
Rossini, Strong Sonatas, Nos. 1-3,6 (K412,417,447,495)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-21 August 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:19

*Review:* I had not heard Rossini's String sonatas before. They were pleasing altogether, and even quite good in spots (I found the 6th the best here). The playing is good, and the acoustics range between a little bit noisy and quite good. Things occasionally got a tad screechy on the higher parts, but the lower end of the spectrum was beautifull, bassy, and occasionally full of lovely raggedy vibration (a good thing for me) on double basses. Overall, however, the material didn't particularly "wow" me.
*
Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos: *


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 65
> LP#139 041*
> 
> View attachment 137744
> 
> *
> Rossini, Strong Sonatas, Nos. 1-3,6 (K412,417,447,495)
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 17-21 August 1968
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:19
> 
> *Review:* I had not heard Rossini's String sonatas before. They were pleasing altogether, and even quite good in spots (I found the 6th the best here). The playing is good, and the acoustics range between a little bit noisy and quite good. Things occasionally got a tad screechy on the higher parts, but the lower end of the spectrum was beautifull, bassy, and occasionally full of lovely raggedy vibration (a good thing for me) on double basses. Overall, however, the material didn't particularly "wow" me.
> *
> Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos: *


Amazing what Karajan recorded. I had never heard of these either. Of course, there were the dumb critics who complained he had a 'narrow' repertoire! :lol:


----------



## Eclectic Al

DavidA said:


> Amazing what Karajan recorded. I had never heard of these either. Of course, there were the dumb critics who complained he had a 'narrow' repertoire! :lol:


Indeed. I recently acquired the box set of Abbado's recordings with the BPO (- largely because the cost per CD was low). What has most struck me about the contents of this box from Karajan's successor is how narrow the range is over 60 CDs. It contains a chunk of Beethoven, Brahms and Mahler (with a few repeats, such as 3 versions of the Brahms violin concerto), plus a bit of Verdi and Wagner. There is no Sibelius, no Nielsen, no Haydn, no Mozart symphonies or concerti, no British, American or Spanish music at all (I think). For many of the composers who appear occasionally there is just a warhorse (Schumann just the Piano Concerto, Tchaikovsky just Piano Concerto 1 and some popular bits and bobs, Prokofiev and Rachmaninov just a couple of piano concerti each). Without looking hard I think much of this stuff had also been recorded by Abbado previously.
I believe Abbado's tenure at the BPO was arguably not too successful (but I'm giving the pieces a good chance), so maybe he was not encouraged to record much outside the central repertoire.
Looking at this, though, it reminds you just how broad Karajan's recorded legacy was. I guess a benefit of having a dominant figure like him was that he could often get his way about doing stuff he wanted to do.


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## Knorf

There's _a lot_ more stuff that Abbado recorded with the Berliner Philharmoniker that was released on Sony Classical, just fyi.

I certainly do not agree Abbado's tenure with the Berliners was "not too successful." Certainly I enjoy what he recorded much more than _his_ successor, and in any case Karajan had many, many more years with the orchestra than Abbado did.


----------



## Eclectic Al

Knorf said:


> There's _a lot_ more stuff that Abbado recorded with the Berliner Philharmoniker that was released on Sony Classical, just fyi.
> 
> I certainly do not agree Abbado's tenure with the Berliners was "not too successful." Certainly I enjoy what he recorded much more than _his_ successor, and in any case Karajan had many, many more years with the orchestra than Abbado did.


Indeed - it is just the DG recordings. I noted Karajan's much longer tenure when I was writing my post, and then cut that out (as it was getting a bit too long already ) - so agree entirely.

I do still think though that the DG recordings of Abbado with the BPO seem a bit narrow (- maybe DG priorities at the time?). I'm hopeful, though, that they're very good. Seems like you are indicating that that should be the case - given your challenge to my "not too successful" reference. Personally I don't have a view yet, as I haven't listened to many of them.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Indeed. I recently acquired the box set of Abbado's recordings with the BPO (- largely because the cost per CD was low). What has most struck me about the contents of this box from Karajan's successor is how narrow the range is over 60 CDs. It contains a chunk of Beethoven, Brahms and Mahler (with a few repeats, such as 3 versions of the Brahms violin concerto), plus a bit of Verdi and Wagner. There is no Sibelius, no Nielsen, no Haydn, no Mozart symphonies or concerti, no British, American or Spanish music at all (I think). For many of the composers who appear occasionally there is just a warhorse (Schumann just the Piano Concerto, Tchaikovsky just Piano Concerto 1 and some popular bits and bobs, Prokofiev and Rachmaninov just a couple of piano concerti each). Without looking hard I think much of this stuff had also been recorded by Abbado previously.
> I believe Abbado's tenure at the BPO was arguably not too successful (but I'm giving the pieces a good chance), so maybe he was not encouraged to record much outside the central repertoire.
> Looking at this, though, it reminds you just how broad Karajan's recorded legacy was. I guess a benefit of having a dominant figure like him was that he could often get his way about doing stuff he wanted to do.


Yeah, I can't speak to Abbado, but I have read that Karajan found it important to use his celebrity and power with the record company to record lesser known works, such as his Schoenberg/Berg/Webern set, Honegger, Nielsen, Respighi, and so on.

So in some ways he is what every every variety of accusation alleges. He certainly recorded things an extra time for a buck. But then, sometimes he recorded things an extra time because he was a stickler and wanted better sound. And then still other times, he recorded things against the instincts of the record company because he thought they were important, regardless of how they would sell.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 66
LP#139 040









Prokofiev, Symphony No. 5 op. 100
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 18-24 September 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 43:29

*Review:* Stunning. This would be amazing sound for being recorded today, and stands out even moreso for the 60s in analog. This is a terrific remastering by DG, with depth, dynamic range, and detail. The BPO is just out of this world in terms of playing, with fire and precision. The reading is exciting, much moreso than the Ozawa recording I own from his early 90s DG box set with the BPO (I do prefer Ozawa's 1st symphony, though). The 1st movement Andante possesses the capability to shock and surprise, with spectacular percussion. The 2nd and 4th movements bristle with wit and virtuoso woodwinds and percussion. The adagio really packs emotional firepower, with fabulous brass and bass. This disc must surely rank among HvK/BPO's finest achievements.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> Yeah, I can't speak to Abbado, but I have read that Karajan found it important to use his celebrity and power with the record company to record lesser known works, such as his Schoenberg/Berg/Webern set, Honegger, Nielsen, Respighi, and so on.
> 
> So in some ways he is what every every variety of accusation alleges. He certainly recorded things an extra time for a buck. But then, sometimes he recorded things an extra time because he was a stickler and wanted better sound. And then still other times, he recorded things against the instincts of the record company because he thought they were important, regardless of how they would sell.


He actually recorded things an extra time because his contract with DG wanted him to please the DG accountants. To record his set of the second Viennese School he actually invested his own money into it. Of course they sold enough sets to reach higher than the Eiffel Tower but it was Karajan who invested in it. So don't believe all you read. He didn't need to record things for an extra buck.


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## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> *Prokofiev, Symphony No. 5 op. 100
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> ...This disc must surely rank among HvK/BPO's finest achievements.


It definitely is in my book.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^And mine. Almost a definitive version of one of the great 20th century symphonies. When I first heard it I was blown away by the power and grit that HvK drew from his forces. I almost feel that he often did some of his best work when he stepped out of his comfort zone of standard Germanic repertoire (Shostakovich 10 and Honegger, for example, and Second Viennese School).


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 67
LP#139 042









Handel, Concerto Grossi, op. 6 (Nos. 1,8,11)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Thomas Brandis & Emil Maas, violin soloists
Ottomar Borwitzky, cello
Herbert von Karajan & Horst Gobel, harpsichord*

Recorded at Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-22 August 1967
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:25
*
Review: *This disc of Handel's Concerto Grossi, which concludes the set, is among the best of the bunch. The harpsichord is nicely forward in the mix, and the violin playing is of a very high caliber. The overall sound mix is plush, but still transparent enough to let all parts come through.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 68
LP#139 043









Schubert, Symphony 9 "The Great," D944
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 24/26/30 September 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:48

*Review: *This recording is immensely likable, if not entirely perfect. The hiss intrudes in the quieter sections of the second movement. It's a pretty minor nitpick, though, because overall the playing is great, the interpretation lively, and the overall dynamics of the sound give all the instrument groups room to breathe. HvK/BPO recorded this in the late 70s for EMI. The 70s 9th is a shade slower as an entire piece (by about 3 minutes). That whole cycle possesses better recorded sound, absent the hiss - as such I think it it probably the overall recommendation, but this record is no slouch by any reasonable stretch.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 69
LP#139 044*








*
Dvorak, Concerto for Cello op. 104
Tchaikovsky, Variations on a Rococo Theme, op. 33
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Mstislav Rostropovich, cello*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 12/23/24 September 1968
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 60:17
*
Review: *Rostropovich is in total command of his insrtument, HvK is in total command of his orchestra, and the results practically speak for themselves. The acoustics of the JCK are great and really lend themselves to cello solo work. There is a passage in the Dvorak which has some strange background noise (like someone is dropping things on the floor) but it seems churlish to downgrade such a luminous recording and performance for that. A justifiable classic.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## Gray Bean

Couldn’t agree more. I’ve long loved this one. The musicians of the BPO play like gods. Rostropovich is a true master.


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## DaddyGeorge

Gray Bean said:


> Couldn't agree more. I've long loved this one. The musicians of the BPO play like gods. Rostropovich is a true master.


I sign in full ...


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## Brahmsianhorn




----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 70
LP#139 045*








*Beethoven, Wellington's Victory, op. 91
March In D Major For Military Band, WoO 24 
Polonaise In D Major For Military Band, WoO 21 
Ecossaise In D Major For Military Band, WoO 22 
March In C Major (Zapfenstreich) For Military Band, WoO 20 
March In B Flat Major For 2 Clarinets, 2 Horns And 2 Bassoons, WoO 29 
Two Marches For Military Band:
No.1 ("York March") In F Major, WoO 18 
No.2 In F Major, WoO 19Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 3 January 1969
and Ufo-Ton-Studio. Berlin, February 2-5,7-8 1969
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes (1), Wilfred Daenicke
Recording Producer: Hans Weber (1), Hansjoachim Reiser
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns (1), Heinz !ildhagen
Total time: 34:24

*Review: *This is a blessedly short disc, but even at 34 minutes it's about 32 minutes too long. Let's start with the positive: I liked WoO 29, the woodwind march. It was interesting and not sonically oppressive.

Now for the rest: Wellington's Victory is mostly trash. The first 2 or 3 minutes are OK, are certainly played well, and even sound pretty good from a technical standpoint. But then the stereophonic musket sounds and firecrackers start. God, this was a slog to get through. Then, a bunch of monotonous marches followed - with all the snare drum you can take.

I vehemently dislike this disc, and would advise anyone on the market to stay away. I can't tell whether this is owing to the material or the production, but I strongly suspect the former, and won't be researching any comparisons for listening.
*
Overall Rating: 2/10

Videos:*


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 70
> LP#139 045*
> 
> View attachment 138144
> 
> *Beethoven, Wellington's Victory, op. 91
> March In D Major For Military Band, WoO 24
> Polonaise In D Major For Military Band, WoO 21
> Ecossaise In D Major For Military Band, WoO 22
> March In C Major (Zapfenstreich) For Military Band, WoO 20
> March In B Flat Major For 2 Clarinets, 2 Horns And 2 Bassoons, WoO 29
> Two Marches For Military Band:
> No.1 ("York March") In F Major, WoO 18
> No.2 In F Major, WoO 19Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 3 January 1969
> and Ufo-Ton-Studio. Berlin, February 2-5,7-8 1969
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes (1), Wilfred Daenicke
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber (1), Hansjoachim Reiser
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns (1), Heinz !ildhagen
> Total time: 34:24
> 
> *Review: *This is a blessedly short disc, but even at 34 minutes it's about 32 minutes too long. Let's start with the positive: I liked WoO 29, the woodwind march. It was interesting and not sonically oppressive.
> 
> Now for the rest: Wellington's Victory is mostly trash. The first 2 or 3 minutes are OK, are certainly played well, and even sound pretty good from a technical standpoint. But then the stereophonic musket sounds and firecrackers start. God, this was a slog to get through. Then, a bunch of monotonous marches followed - with all the snare drum you can take.
> 
> I vehemently dislike this disc, and would advise anyone on the market to stay away. I can't tell whether this is owing to the material or the production, but I strongly suspect the former, and won't be researching any comparisons for listening.
> *
> Overall Rating: 2/10
> 
> Videos:*


In the ongoing questioning about whether some of these discs were recorded because Karajan wanted to, or the accountants at DG, who would have been the culprit here? Did HvK have a yearning to do this, or did DG think it would be a big seller? One wonders.


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## NLAdriaan

Eclectic Al said:


> In the ongoing questioning about whether some of these discs were recorded because Karajan wanted to, or the accountants at DG, who would have been the culprit here? Did HvK have a yearning to do this, or did DG think it would be a big seller? One wonders.


I think DG's accountants and HvK had a mutual interest.


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## Knorf

Eclectic Al said:


> In the ongoing questioning about whether some of these discs were recorded because Karajan wanted to, or the accountants at DG, who would have been the culprit here? Did HvK have a yearning to do this, or did DG think it would be a big seller? One wonders.





NLAdriaan said:


> I think DG's accountants and HvK had a mutual interest.


It's pretty niche repertoire. I doubt very much anyone was under any illusions that this would make much money. It's hardly _The Four Seasons_. I speculate rather that maybe there was talk about a complete Beethoven instrumental music edition.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


>


He does make some daft comments: "Karajan hated the chorus"

Sweeping statements with no reasoning.


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## bharbeke

Apparently, after checking my notes, I had already heard and loved the Dvorak Cello Concerto and Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations by Karajan/BPO. They were great this time around, too!


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> I think DG's accountants and HvK had a mutual interest.


It was actually the BPO who benefitted as they were already paid by the government and they received the recording perks in addition. They sure felt the draught when HvK left!


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> He does make some daft comments: "Karajan hated the chorus"
> 
> Sweeping statements with no reasoning.


However daft his choice of words, that exact point has made by me and others. I remember first listening to the 1977 Karajan Beethoven 9th in the early 90s. The recording was great right up until the big Ode to Joy chorus, and then it felt like a big letdown. The chorus is small and recessed. Same in 1963. I remember comparing it to 1972 Solti, and the difference was enormous. With Solti the chorus is present and full.

This is the main reason I can't recommend Karajan as a first choice in the work, as good as he is in the orchestral movements.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> However daft his choice of words, that exact point has made by me and others. I remember first listening to the 1977 Karajan Beethoven 9th in the early 90s. The recording was great right up until the big Ode to Joy chorus, and then it felt like a big letdown. The chorus is small and recessed. Same in 1963. I remember comparing it to 1972 Solti, and the difference was enormous. With Solti the chorus is present and full.
> 
> This is the main reason I can't recommend Karajan as a first choice in the work, as good as he is in the orchestral movements.


I think you miss the point here. This 77 recording daringly mixes voices and instruments. Of course if you are conventional and want the chorus up front this will not do but I take it as an success. More so than in 63. This 77 to my mind is the best all round recording of the 9th.


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## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> It was actually the BPO who benefitted as they were already paid by the government and they received the recording perks in addition. They sure felt the draught when HvK left!


Sure, everybody earned from the huge sales. But of all involved, clearly HvK individually benefitted the most by ............. far. I guess his heirs still do, from all of the re-issues. Good for them.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Sure, everybody earned from the huge sales. But of all involved, clearly HvK individually benefitted the most by ............. far. I guess his heirs still do, from all of the re-issues. Good for them.


Funny isn't it that HvK has been blamed for being too successful! :lol:


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## Knorf

DavidA said:


> Funny isn't it that HvK has been blamed for being too successful! :lol:


Sort of like Paganini. Instead of selling your soul to the devil to obtain success, for Karajan, it's selling your soul to corporate commercial something something. But it's nonsense. Karajan was clearly a very intense musician, for music's sake, and never forgot it.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 71-27
LP#139 046-047









Overture "Leonore" I, Op. 138. 
Overture "Leonore" II, Op. 72 
Overture "Leonore" III, Op. 72a 
Overture "Fidelio", Op. 72b 
Overture "Prometheus", Op. 43 
Overture "King Stephen", Op. 117 
Overture "The Ruins Of Athens", Op. 113 
Overture "Egmont", Op. 84 
Overture "Coriolanus" II, Op. 62 
Overture "Name Day", Op. 115 
Overture "Consecration Of The House", Op. 124
Muzik zu einem Ritterballett WoO1
Gratulations-Menuett WoO3
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 21-22 September 1965 (Coriolan), 3-6 January 1969
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 70:50
*
Review: *This 2 disc set contains a wealth of Beethovenian riches. Sound quality ranges from okay to great. The highlights are perhaps Egmont and Coriolan, but that's probably more due to the compositions than the performances. The BPO plays with fire and precision (except for a few rageddy passages of Coriolan) and is in the full flower of the string and brass tones Karajan cultivated among them. a Pleasant addition is the suite of Ritterballet music and the Gratulation, neither of which I had heard elsewhere.

There is one section among the Leonore overtures that suffers a weird recording dropout. I'm surprised it was left in. But it's not enough to downgrade this set.

Karajan did recordings in the 80s of Egmont, Coriolan, Leonore III and Fidelio. These possess superior sound, and the interpretations are just as fiery. As such, they get pride of preference. With that said, though, if you are in the market, this collection contains a wider survey and isn't far off. It's also available in a very inexpensive DG/Galleria CD reissue, albeit sans Ritterballet and Gratulation. 
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> The BPO plays with fire and precision (except for a few rageddy passages of Coriolan)


It's one of those pieces that is Harder Than You Think. I've heard (and performed with) more than one excellent to great orchestra that stumbled over _Coriolan_ because it wasn't rehearsed enough. People (some conductors, many orchestral musicians) think it is on the difficulty level of _Egmont_. Um, no.

The worst pieces for Harder Than You Think treachery, in my opinion, might be Tchaikovsky's _1812_ and Dukas's _The Sorceror's Apprentice_.


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## MatthewWeflen

The dropout I mentioned above is at 10:19 in this video.


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## DavidA

Knorf said:


> Sort of like Paganini. Instead of selling your soul to the devil to obtain success, for Karajan, it's selling your soul to corporate commercial something something. But it's nonsense. Karajan was clearly a very intense musician, for music's sake, and never forgot it.


Theere is a parallel to Paginini, In the eyes of some people not-one could be that good unless they had sold their soul to the devil. Same with Karajan. No-one could have his success unless he had sold his (musical) soul. And the millions who bought his recordings were somehow duped by a diabolical conspiracy to ruin the recording industry. The fact that people who bought Karajan's recordings might have done so because they actually enjoyed them doesn't enter the frame of their thinking. Nor the rather peculiar theory that a man who sold more recordings than anyone else ruined the recording industry. Strange logic!


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 73
LP#12530-027









J. Strauss II: Geschichten aus dem Wienerwald, Op.325
J. Strauss II: Auf der Jagd, Op.373
J. Strauss II: Egyptischer Marsch, Op.335
J. Strauss II, Josef Strauss: Pizzicato Polka (1870)
J. Strauss II: Unter Donner und Blitz, Polka, Op.324
J. Strauss II: Morgenblätter, Op.279
J. Strauss II: Persischer Marsch, Op.289
J. Strauss II: Wiener Blut, Op.354
J. Strauss II: Postillon d'amour, Op.317 (Polka francaise)
Josef Strauss: Sphärenklänge, Op.235
J. Strauss II: Leichtes Blut, polka schnell, Op.319

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Karl Swoboda, zither (op. 325)*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-29 April 1969
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 64:15

*Review: *I have never been one to pooh-pooh the Strausses. While their music is not as intellectual as, say, Beethoven or Brahms, it is unfailingly pleasant. This collection brought to my attention a few pieces I had never heard before, such as the Egyptian March or the Morgenblatter waltz. All are excellently played, the sound is excellent, and particularly notable is the percussion here. It is terrifically miked and bristling with detail. The Unter Donner und Blitz polka is explosive and fun - I have never heard it this rollicking. Fun is the word that really describes the whole collection.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 74
LP#2350-051









Franz von Suppe, Overtures
Leichte Kavallerie
Ein Morgen, ein Mittag, ein Abend in Wien
Pique Dame 
Die schone Galathee 
Jolly Banditenstreiche
Dichter und Bauer

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 24-25 September 1969
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 49:23

*Review:* I had only heard the Light Cavalry overture before this listen, and was pleasantly surprised by some of these. The sound quality was especially good, with some deep bass and strong detail, especially in percussion. Overall, a very engaging platter, with excellent playing by the BPO. 
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 75
LP#2530-065









Bartok, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Sz 106
Stravinsky, Apollon Musagete (1947)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 20-22 September 1969 (Bartok)
Victoria Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 23 August 1972 (Stravinsky)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes & Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Karl Scheibe & Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 63:32

Review: I am not really sensitive to criticisms of "idiomatic" playing or not in modern pieces like these. I can only judge them based on how I respond, and how convincing the whole thing seems to me. As for these, I found the Bartok very convincing. The sound was exceptional, with the percussion really ringing and decaying in my ears in a pleasing way. The strings were also quite lovely with strong attacks. The Stravinsky seemed a bit less convincing to me, and once I saw that it was recorded in St. Moritz, I started to understand - things just suffer a bit from the acoustic mushiness that that venue seems to carry with it. Overall, I'd probably give the Bartok a 10 and the Stravinsky a 7. It was a pleasing disc overall and a "convincing" rendition of some more modern repertoire. I also like the cover.

*Overall Rating: 8/10*
*
Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 76
LP#2530-066









Mozart, Adagio and Fugue in C minor K546
Beethoven, Grosse Fugue in B flat major op.133
R. Strauss, Metamorphosen 
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 7, 11,12,18-24 August 1969 
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:03
*
Review: *This is an odd mix of pieces. Strauss and Mozart? Hmm. Anyhow, all three pieces are played well. The highlight of the disc is certainly the Strauss, which is brilliantly played with excellent sound. The 1980s digital Metamorphosen is played with greater passion and intensity, however, and would be my pick. This rendition is more "flawless" and technically brilliant. The Mozart and Beethoven are creditable but not overwhelming, and do suffer a bit from the St. Moritz mush (which the Strauss does not, probably by virtue of the nature of the piece).
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

Also, a certain somebody just received a package from Greece (cue "Einleitung, oder Sonnenaufgang")


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 77
LP#2530-068









Arthur Honegger, Symphony No. 2, Symphony No. 3 "Liturgique"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Fritz Wesenigk, trumpet (Sym. 2)
*
Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 8-11 August 1969 (Sym. 2)
Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 23 September 1969 (Sym. 3)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes & Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Klaus Scheibe & Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 58:32

*Review: *This challenging modern repertoire is stunningly played and beautifully recorded. A rhythmic and narrative line is preserved through both symphonies, and they don't become unmoored or boring. The sound quality is terrific, with sharp playing on the strings, beautiful resonance with the basses, and, on symphony 3, amazingly detailed percussion. A truly exceptional recording that brings the precision and fire of the BPO under Karajan to bear on something outside German Romanticism.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 78
LP#2530-247









Tomaso Albinoni Adagio G-moll 
Johann Pachelbel Kanon Und Gigue (D-dur) 
Luigi Boccherini Quintettino (Aufziehen Der Militärischen Nachtwache In Madrid) 
Ottorino Respighi Antiche Danze Ed Arie Per Liuto, 3. Suite (Trascrizione Libera Per Orchestra D'Archi)

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wonfgang Meyer, organ*

Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 5 August 1969
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes & Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:55

*Review:* I did not go into this one expecting to like it as much as I did - perhaps it was the "Adagio" title, I thought this might be a saccharine collection. It isn't. I found the Albinoni adagio moving, in great part due to the wonderful organ solo. The Respighi was also really enjoyable. The only miss for me was the Pachelbel, not because I dislike the piece, but because it seemed a bit fast and the harpsichord took me out of the sort of mathematical beauty of it. Karajan redid this digitally in the 80s sans harpsichord, and I prefer that version. Anyway, overall this one was very enjoyable sonically as well as content-wise.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 77
> LP#2530-068
> 
> View attachment 138708
> 
> 
> Arthur Honegger, Symphony No. 2, Symphony No. 3 "Liturgique"
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Fritz Wesenigk, trumpet (Sym. 2)
> *
> Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 8-11 August 1969 (Sym. 2)
> Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 23 September 1969 (Sym. 3)
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes & Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Klaus Scheibe & Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 58:32
> 
> *Review: *This challenging modern repertoire is stunningly played and beautifully recorded. A truly exceptional recording that brings the precision and fire of the BPO under Karajan to bear on something outside German Romanticism.


Yes. I don't know if I would otherwise have bumped into either of these pieces, but I got this recording because of the Karajan reputation. I have listened to other recordings now and (especially with number 3) none comes close. Truly a great recording: one of those where the idea of a reference example of excellence for a piece (or pieces) is spot on.


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## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 77
> LP#2530-068
> 
> View attachment 138708
> 
> 
> Arthur Honegger, Symphony No. 2, Symphony No. 3 "Liturgique"
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Fritz Wesenigk, trumpet (Sym. 2)
> *
> Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 8-11 August 1969 (Sym. 2)
> Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 23 September 1969 (Sym. 3)
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes & Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Klaus Scheibe & Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 58:32
> 
> *Review: *This challenging modern repertoire is stunningly played and beautifully recorded. A rhythmic and narrative line is preserved through both symphonies, and they don't become unmoored or boring. The sound quality is terrific, with sharp playing on the strings, beautiful resonance with the basses, and, on symphony 3, amazingly detailed percussion. A truly exceptional recording that brings the precision and fire of the BPO under Karajan to bear on something outside German Romanticism.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Funnily enough, I played this today. Absolute must for any Honegger fan. The reference recording of both symphonies for me.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 79
LP#2530-267









Stravinsky, Symphony in C 
Concerto in D for String Orchestra
Circus Polka
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 30 December (Symphony) 
1969 14 April 1970 (Circus), Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 21 August 1969 (Concerto)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 46:18

*Review:* I am not a Stravinsky expert. I know people have _strong feelings_ about Karajan's Stravinsky. I don't. I judge whether a performance is convincing and involving for me. I find this one quite involving. The symphony is brisk and rhythmic, and engages me with its sound world. The playing is great and the sound quality is terrific. The String concerto is also very engaging. The sound quality is a bit more reverberant (owing to the venue), but this is not a deal-breaker, given the string-only nature of the piece. The Polka is a fun, exciting trifle, sharing the same qualities as the symphony.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 80
LP#2530-301









Beethoven, Incidental Music to Goethe's Egmont, op. 84
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Erich Schellow, narrator*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 3-6 January 1969
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 36:58

*Review:* I'm sure almost everyone here has heard the overture to Egmont. But it was part of a larger piece, set to the play Egmont by Goethe. This disc contains that music in its entirety, including the narration. The sound quality is terrific, and the overture itself is thrilling. The rest is, well, fine. There's a reason people seem to excerpt the overture. It contains most of the important themes. The incidental music is entertaining but somewhat unsatisfying compared to the overture. Janowitz is typically excellent. I enjoyed the narration, and the sound quality was really eerily good. 
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## Knorf

I took a listen to that Karajan Stravinsky Symphony in C. I hadn't expected much, but it truly is a very good performance. Karajan favors a strings-forward balance, and that suits this piece quite a lot better than it would something like Stravinsky's Symphony in Three Movements. Karajan favors beauty over spiky, but the Symphony in C and Concerto in D come across no worse for wear. A pleasant surprise!


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 81
LP#2530-439









R. Strauss, Concerto for Oboe and Orchestra, AV.144
Concerto for Horn and Orchestra No. 2, AV.132
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Lothar Koch, oboe
Norbert Hauptmann, horn*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 20-22 September 1969, (Oboe) 8 March 1973 (horn)
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes, Hermann Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Klaus Scheibe, Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 45:04
*
Review:* These somewhat "lesser" Strauss pieces are given the star treatment, with excellent orchestral playing and good acoustics. The oboe and horn are impressive solos, to be sure, especially the oboe, with some quite extended phrases. With that said, it's a _lot _of oboe to take in in one sitting. The horn is a little less in your face.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## Brahmsianhorn

I’ve always liked the Karajan Albinoni Adagio.

Anyone ever sampled Munch’s Honegger?


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## MatthewWeflen

*1960's Disc 82
LP#4451-952*









*Bach, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra No. 1 BWV 1041
Concerto for Violin and Orchestra No. 2 BWV 1042
Concerto for Two Violins and Orchestra BWV 1043
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Christian Ferras, violin
Michel Schwalbe, violin (two violins)*

Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, August 1966
Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:38

*Review: *Apparently this session of Bach concertos was not published in the 60s, and was held until the commemorative release pictured above. Heaven knows why - the playing is glorious. Ferras is excellent, and his duet with Schwalbe is especially good in the Largo movement. The acoustics are good, but perhaps not as good as the JCK. Overall, this Bach sound here is better than the much maligned Brandenburgs, with a clearer texture for harpsichord and a more subdued role for the orchestra. All in all, a great disc that should have been released to the world back in the 60s.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

Well, I have finished the 1960s box and will soon be moving on to the 1970s. It was rewarding going through this collection chronologically and it was eye opening to see what sorts of repertoire Karajan and the BPO tackled.

*The albums I gave 10's were:*
Liszt Mazeppa, Hungarian Fantasies/Rhepsodies
Beethoven Sym 5
Beethoven Sym 9
Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto (Richter)
Tchaikovsky Sym 6
Brahms Sym 1
Brahms Sym 4
Sibelius Violin Concerto (Ferras)
Sibelius Sym 5 & Tapiola
Strauss Don Quixote
Bruckner Sym 9
Handel Concerto Grossi 5,10,12
Beethoven Violin Concerto (Ferras)
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (Ferras)
Sibelius Sym 6 & 7
Prokofiev Sym 5
Dvorak Cello Concerto, Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations (Rostropovich)
Honegger Sym 2 & 3

Probably the biggest surprise among the 10s was Handel. The high quality in the non-German repertoire was a pleasant surprise, such as: Honegger, Prokofiev, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky. Christian Ferras as a soloist was clearly a bright, shining star, for as long as he produced, anyway. Karajan's much lauded Beethoven cycle was solid, at times spectacular. His Brahms was also very high quality. The Sibelius, for me, was otherworldly.

*The lowest scores were reserved for: *
Bach's Brandenburgs, 
Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture,
Beethoven Wellington's Victory
Opera Intermezzi

While these were fewer and further between, they definitely exhibited some of the qualities Karajan is often criticized for. The Brandenburgs were soupy and mushy (nearly all of the St. Moritz recordings suffered this to varying degrees). The 1812 and Wellington had awful canned sound effects added in post production. The Opera intermezzi were weepy and overblown with Montovani-esque strings.

But overall, this collection was strikingly consistent in quality. All of the in-between stuff not mentioned was populated by good, solid interpretations in good to great modern sound. It's clear, listening to this collection, why Karajan built the reputation he did through recording.
*
Best of the set:
*








*Worst of the set:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 1
LP#2530-070









Weinachtskonzerte
Corelli, Concerto grosso fatto per la notte di Natale in G minor, op. 6 no. 8
Manfredini, Concerto grosso per il santissimo Natale in C major, op. 3 no. 12
Torelli, Concerto a 4 in forma di Pastorale per il santissimo Natale in G minor, op. 8 no. 6
Locatelli, Concerto grosso in $ minor, op. 1 no. 8
Thomas Brandis & Emil Maas (violins)
Dietrich Gerhardt & Hans Priem (violas)
Ottomar Borwitzky, (cello)
Waldemar Doling & Wolfgang Meyer (harpsichords)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 19-23 August 1970
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 57:00

*Review: *It took me several nights to get through this. There was always something else I would rather listen to or watch. That says something to me. It's not the playing or the sound, both are quite competent. I just find the material boring. The harpsichords are a tad submerged in the mix of strings for my liking, but they are still audible. This is one of those albums I had no idea HvK/BPO cut, and I think there's probably a good reason for that.

*Overall Rating: 5/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 2
LP#2530-070









Vivaldi, Concertos RV271, RV169, RV234, RV151, RV129, RV523, RV549, RV550
Thomas Brandis, Emil Maas, Leon Spierer & Hans-Joachim Westphal (violins)
Ottomar Borwitzky & Eberhard Finke (cellos)
Waldemar Doling, Wolfgang Meyer & Horst Gobel (harpsichords)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 20-23 August 1970; 6 September 1972 (RV549-550)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 71:50

*Review:* Another platter that feels every bit of its 71-plus minutes. There are some more pleasant pieces here than that last disc, but overall this is still just not very engaging. The slow movements plod and sink. The faster movements entertain. Sound is very much in keeping with the last disc, the same St. Moritz sound quality, for better or worse. As an aside, I find the cover bizarre - both in its romance image (I can't imagine playing this music to impress a woman), and its promotion of something called "Elvira Madigan," apparently a Swedish film that featured some classical music in it.

*Overall Rating: 6/10

Videos *(I chose two representative concertos, from pretty good to pretty dreary):


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 3
LP#2530-126
*








*Mendelssohn, "Hebrides" Overture, op. 26
Symphony No. 3 "Scottish," op. 56
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 7-8 January 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 50:18

*Review: *Listening to this music is like slipping into a warm bathtub. Karajan and the BPO conjure some lovely string textures, and the sonics generally are quite good. But this isn't to say the music lacks excitement. The 4th movement of the symphony brings the brass and tympani to bear nicely and ends everything in a brisk, exciting way. The Hebrides overture is probably the bigger highlight on the disc, honestly, creating great mystery and atmosphere. Thank goodness we've left the previous 2 discs behind and made the leap into romanticism.

As an aside, I quite like this cover art. It reminds me a bit of a Georgia O'keefe painting at the Art Institute here in Chicago. I do like the other photographic art in the rest of the cycle (pictured below from the 4th and used on the collected CD), but the abstract stuff speaks to me more.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:
*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 4
LP#2530-128









Bizet, Carmen Suite No. 1, L'Arlesienne Suite No. 1 & 2
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Daniel Deffayet, saxophone (L'Arlesienne)*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 28-29 December 1970
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 45:29
*
Review:* This is thrillingly romantic. The _klang _of the BPO is positively sterling. Is this "pops" fare? Maybe. But it's played with fire and precision. Textures are very clear and instrument groups are easily distinguishable. The Farandole is great fun. HvK/BPO did a digital recording of this material in the 80s, but this one is definitely better, as the sound quality is less recessed and more immediate, and the miking of instrument groups sounds more natural. I think it would be churlish to go below a 9 on this one. 
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## bharbeke

I was glad to revisit the Hebrides overture from Mendelssohn. The last time I heard it was also Karajan/BPO, but this time around, it moved from good to excellent in my ratings.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 5
LP#2530-144









Rossini Overtures: La gazza ladra, La scala di seta, Semiramide, Il barbiere di Siviglia
L'italiana in Algeri, Guillame Tell
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 2/5/6 January 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 56:13

*Review: *Another absolutely splendid Romantic platter. Sound quality is excellent with wide dynamic range, good detail in plucked strings and percussion, and beautiful deep bass tones. The playing is exciting and precise. I would say the two highlights are the Semiramide, Barber of Seville, and Guillame Tell overtures, but really, it's all quite good. Rossini truly had a gift for melody, and his orchestration is not shabby, either. I was thinking of a 9 simply because this is "pops" material, but frankly it's so delightful I think it has to be a 10.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos (all are available on YouTube, I chose the highlights):*


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 3
> LP#2530-126
> *
> View attachment 139178
> 
> 
> *Mendelssohn, "Hebrides" Overture, op. 26
> Symphony No. 3 "Scottish," op. 56
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> *
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 7-8 January 1971
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 50:18
> 
> *Review: *Listening to this music is like slipping into a warm bathtub. Karajan and the BPO conjure some lovely string textures, and the sonics generally are quite good. But this isn't to say the music lacks excitement. The 4th movement of the symphony brings the brass and tympani to bear nicely and ends everything in a brisk, exciting way. The Hebrides overture is probably the bigger highlight on the disc, honestly, creating great mystery and atmosphere. Thank goodness we've left the previous 2 discs behind and made the leap into romanticism.
> 
> As an aside, I quite like this cover art. It reminds me a bit of a Georgia O'keefe painting at the Art Institute here in Chicago. I do like the other photographic art in the rest of the cycle (pictured below from the 4th and used on the collected CD), but the abstract stuff speaks to me more.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 8/10
> 
> Videos:
> *


These performances of the Mendelssohn Symphony are wonderful. So full of life. I would certainly give it more than eight. Interesting that during the war when Mendelssohn was banned by the Nazis Karajan kept clandestine scores of the composer's works for himself to study.


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## MatthewWeflen

double post......................


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## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> These performances of the Mendelssohn Symphony are wonderful. So full of life. I would certainly give it more than eight. Interesting that during the war when Mendelssohn was banned by the Nazis Karajan kept clandestine scores of the composer's works for himself to study.


I'm just a bigger fan of Mendelssohn's 1st and 4th, personally. The 3rd is a bit too ethereal for me to go to frequently.


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## Animal the Drummer

DavidA said:


> These performances of the Mendelssohn Symphony are wonderful. So full of life. I would certainly give it more than eight. Interesting that during the war when Mendelssohn was banned by the Nazis Karajan kept clandestine scores of the composer's works for himself to study.


I much prefer the performance of the "Scottish", which is positively the best one I've ever heard, to that of the "Italian", which I find over-driven (in the first and last movts) and too sleepy (3rd movt) by turns. The "Hebrides" overture is wonderfully done though.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 6
LP#2530-169
*








*Schumann, Symphony No. 1 op. 38 "Spring"; Symphony No. 4 op. 120
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4/8 February 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Heinz Wildhagen
Total time: 60:13

*Review: *This review has taken me a bit more time to arrive at, for two reasons - the comments of David Hurwitz, who terms Karajan's Schumann "greasy and oleaginous," (which I think betrays more bias than discernment) and the comments of Merl, whose opinion I respect, that he has very mixed feelings about it. So I wanted to take the time to compare this to the other Schumann recording in my collection, Bernstein with the VPO. Upon that comparison, I find the first goes to Bernstein, while the 4th lands decisively in Karajan's column. The first here is indeed a bit sonically crowded, and the metronomic tempo in the fast parts too closely matches that of the slow parts. So it comes off as a bit staid. Bernstein's tempii fluctuate more, to good effect, and the recording (also by DG) allows more detail to flourish.

But the 4th here is better than Bernstein's. The strings of the BPO really are magnificent in the first movement, and the 4th symphony is perhaps more receptive to Karajan's approach with the BPO. The sound is more transparent and lets different instrument groups shine. His tempii are also more fleet in 3 of 4 movements. The Scherzo is positively thrilling, with excellent emphasis placed on just the right instrument groups. Bernstein's is fine, and is even a shade faster, but has less impact to me. The 4th movement in Karajan/BPO has more power in the brass.

If this were a rating for just the 4th, it would be a 10. But as a unit, I would give it a solid 8.
*Overall Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:
*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 7
LP#2530-170









Schumann, Symphony No. 2 op. 61; Overture, Scherzo and Finale op. 52
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 16-17 February 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 53:24
*
Review:* This recording is consistently delightful. The pieces are played with verve in the outer movements. The 2nd's Scherzo especially is brisk and appealing. The adagio never loses interest, despite slowing things down. It has good sonics, with excellent separation between instrument groups and well-miked percussion. Op. 52 is excellent, and may be the highlight of the disc. It is brisk and clear. It seems as though whatever was holding the recording of the 1st back has been solved in the rest of the Schumann cycle.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:
*


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## bharbeke

I tried the Schumann 4th. It was nice, but I'm afraid I fall on the side that prefers the Bernstein. Others I have really enjoyed on the symphony are Armin Jordan, Solti, Szell, and Harnoncourt.


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## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> I tried the Schumann 4th. It was nice, but I'm afraid I fall on the side that prefers the Bernstein. Others I have really enjoyed on the symphony are Armin Jordan, Solti, Szell, and Harnoncourt.


I think the Bernstein is very good. I just like the Karajan better. As cycles, they're probably equals. And I say that as someone who is not a particular Bernstein fan, either (I think his Beethoven is atrocious, though I like his Mahler and Copland).


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 8
LP#2530-195









Tchaikovsky, Swan Lake suite, op. 20; Sleeping Beauty suite, op. 66a
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Michel Schwalbe, solo violin (op. 20)*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4/22 January, 17 February 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 49:50

*Review:* Sonically, this recording is unimpeachable. The bass is deep, the highs detailed, the playing romantically lush but still crisp enough (as in the opening of the Sleeping Beauty). The only question is whether an album of ballet suites deserves to exist. I quite disliked the album of opera intemezzi from a few years prior. I am leery of collections of "poppy" things that are not unified pieces, generally. This one, though, I think does rise to the occasion and ends up being a fine testament to Tchaikovsky's melodic genius. As an aside, I quite like the cover art. It's just flowers, but sometimes simplicity is a virtue.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 8
> LP#2530-195
> 
> View attachment 139469
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Swan Lake suite, op. 20; Sleeping Beauty suite, op. 66a
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Michel Schwalbe, solo violin (op. 20)*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4/22 January, 17 February 1971
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 49:50
> 
> *Review:* Sonically, this recording is unimpeachable. The bass is deep, the highs detailed, the playing romantically lush but still crisp enough (as in the opening of the Sleeping Beauty). The only question is whether an album of ballet suites deserves to exist. I quite disliked the album of opera intemezzi from a few years prior. I am leery of collections of "poppy" things that are not unified pieces, generally. This one, though, I think does rise to the occasion and ends up being a fine testament to Tchaikovsky's melodic genius. As an aside, I quite like the cover art. It's just flowers, but sometimes simplicity is a virtue.
> *
> Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


I have the earlier recording of the ballet suites with the Vienna Philharmonic and they are superb to


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## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> I have the earlier recording of the ballet suites with the Vienna Philharmonic and they are superb to


The only bad Tchaikovsky Karajan recording I have come across was the 1812 Overture. Herbert and Pyotr were a good fit.


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> The only bad Tchaikovsky Karajan recording I have come across was the 1812 Overture. Herbert and Pyotr were a good fit.


I enjoyed tha5 with the Rusdian choir


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## UniversalTuringMachine

There is a sheen to Karajan's Tchaikovsky and yes, the BPO sound is too beautiful. I prefer my Chai a bit raw and rough.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 9
LP#2530-199









Offenbach, Gaite Parisienne
Gounod, Faust Ballet music, La Valse de Faust
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 23 January, 15 February 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 52:35

*Review:* Speaking of collections of works that don't really do it for me, this one, while a very good recording sonically (percussion is excellent, bass is deep, and the orchestra is well balanced), doesn't engage me as anything more than background music. The material is light and trifling. The Gounod grabs me a bit more by the intellect, but not much more. I do like the Toulouse-Lautrec painting being used as a cover.
*
Overall Rating: 6/10

Videos: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 10
LP#2530-200









Opernballette
Borodin, Prince Igor (excerpts)
Tchaikovsky, Eugene Onegin (excerpts)
Verdi, Aida (excerpts), Otello (excerpts)
Ponchielle, La Gioconda (excerpts)
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 29-30 December 1970, 6/8 January 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:27
*
Review: *All of the badmouthing of compilations I've done fails to apply here. What wonderful music! The Borodin and Tchaikovsky are particularly excellent, but all share terrific sonics and playing. I had not heard many of these pieces before, and I think there is some utility in collecting highlights from opera for orchestral fans.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 10
LP#2530-243









Edvard Grieg, Peer Gynt Suite No. 1, op.46; Peer Gynt Suite No. 2, op.55; Sigurd Jorsalfar, op. 56
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22 September 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 50:18
*
Review:* Are the Peer Gynt suites hoary war-horses? Sure. Are they splendidly played? You bet they are. Karajan recorded both suites digitally with the BPO in the early 80s - this one is slightly better because of the clearer miking on the tympani. The real bonus of the disc for me is Sigurd Jorsalfar, which I had never heard. It is reminiscent of some of the "nationalist" pieces of Sibelius, Liszt and Dvorak. All in all, an excellent smorgasbord of Norwegian music. PS, I love the cover. It's so strange and evocative.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 12
LP#2530-244









Weber, Aufforderung zum Tanz, op. 56
Berlioz, La Damnation de Faust, op. 24
Liszt, Mephistro Walts No. 1, S110/2
Smetana, The Bartered Bride
Dvorak, Scherzo capriccioso, op. 66
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 22-24 September 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 55:11

*Review: *HvK/BPO's facility for Slavic music continues apace, here. The three Slavs are the highlight of this album, particularly Smetana. Sound quality is excellent throughout, with the Smetana evincing some lovely percussion. The Weber and Berlioz are slightly less compelling. DG/HvK/BPO seem to really be in an audio groove in this early 70s era. Hiss is nearly absent, detail is excellent in low and high tones, and the dynamic range of the sound is wondrous.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 13
LP#2530-250









The European Anthems
*
Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 17/27 February 1972
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 51:02
*
Review:* I can't stay mad at this album. Each anthem is played with aplomb, with excellent sonics. Highlights for me are Germany, France, Italy, Turkey, and the UK. There is HvK's own arrangement of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," which was adopted as the EU anthem. It's a bit slow, but it does feel anthemic. The album also includes the choral movement of the 9th from the 1963 cyce to pad things out. As such, I find the album overall to be a bit light on "new" content. It's a fun trifle, but not something I listen to again and again. If I ever host the Olympics, I'm set.
*
Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## UniversalTuringMachine

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 13
> LP#2530-250
> 
> View attachment 139720
> 
> 
> The European Anthems
> *
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 17/27 February 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:02
> *
> Review:* I can't stay mad at this album. Each anthem is played with aplomb, with excellent sonics. Highlights for me are Germany, France, Italy, Turkey, and the UK. There is HvK's own arrangement of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," which was adopted as the EU anthem. It's a bit slow, but it does feel anthemic. The album also includes the choral movement of the 9th from the 1963 cyce to pad things out. As such, I find the album overall to be a bit light on "new" content. It's a fun trifle, but not something I listen to again and again. If I ever host the Olympics, I'm set.
> *
> Overall Rating: 7/10
> *


*

I have this peculiar recording. I'd like to +1 for the European solidity on display that is nowhere to be found right now.*


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## MatthewWeflen

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> I have this peculiar recording. I'd like to +1 for the European solidity on display that is nowhere to be found right now.


Yeah, I like it for that. The 7 is because of the repetitive content. I would have preferred some additional out of use anthems.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 14-15
LP#2707-065









Verdi, Messa da requiem
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Mirella Freni, soprano
Christa Ludwig, contralto
Carlo Cossutta, tenor
Nicolai Ghiarov, bass*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 3-5 January 1972
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 89:11
*
Review:* Keeping in mind that choral stuff is not my favorite, I find myself comparing this to the Mozart Requiem, Brahms Ein Deutsches Requem, Beethoven Missa Solemnis, and the Haydn Schopfung from the 60s set. I don't like this as much as any of those (especially the Brahms). I don't think I can fault the playing or the singing, so maybe it's just the material. When the orchestra is going full tilt on the Dies Irae-type passages, I really dig it. I will say, comparing this to the 80s digital Verdi Requiem, recorded with the VPO, I prefer that one. The sound is a bit fuller in the low end and it doesn't require as much monkeying with volume. This 1972 recording is crazy with the dynamic range from piano to forte. Like, too crazy. I do like the album cover quite a bit. I'm a sucker for good typography and a graphic image.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 16
LP#2530-296









Vivaldi, The Four Seasons, RV269,315,293,297
Michel Schwalbe, violin*

Recorded at Franzosische Kirche, St. Moritz, 15-21 August 1972, 6 September 1972
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 66:07

*Review: *This recording is a disaster from a sound quality perspective. Did Hans and Gunter put the microphones in the next room? Did they fall into a cup of coffee during the session? Yikes. As performances, they're fine, in keeping with the sort of plush HvK baroque sets from the 60s box. But they're nearly unlistenable as they exist on this CD. HvK recorded this material for EMI with Anne-Sophie Mutter and the VPO in 1984, and it's a night and day difference, like someone pulled plugs out of your ears. Avoid this recording and go for Karajan/Mutter/VPO instead.

I do like the cover. So that's something?

*Overall Rating: 4/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 17
LP#2530-201









Carl Maria von Weber, Overtures: Der Freischutz, Der Beherrscher der Geister, Oberon, Euryanthe, Abu Hassan, Peter Schmoll und seine Nachbarn*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 14&17 February 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 47:27
*
Review:* I really enjoyed this one, especially coming on the heels of the previous Vivaldi debacle. Recorded sound is excellent here, with good percussion, brassy brass, and sharp strings. The Ruler of Spirits and Oberon overtures especially were a really engaging experience. I really can't come up with any criticisms of this collection, except that as a collection, they are variable in quality as musical pieces. It's also got a great cover!

*Overall Rating: 9/10*
*
Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

The remaining three from above:


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 10
LP#2530-349*








*R. Strauss Till Eulenspiegels op. 28
Salome op. 54
Don Juan op. 20
Tod und Verklarung op. 24
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 7/9 December 1972 & 8 January 1973
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 71:06

*Review:* Sonically splendid, impeccably played, viscerally effective Strauss. If I were going to try to identify better versions also recorded by HVK/BPO, I might point to the 80s digital Tod und Varklarung. But honestly, there is little to separate his various versions. They are all terrific. I have the Rudolf Kempe set as well, and I would say they are equal to each other. This is a high water mark for HvK/BPO, certainly among their ten or twenty best recordings.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


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## Knorf

I certainly agree! Karajan's Richard Strauss has very few peers.


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## DavidA

Knorf said:


> I certainly agree! Karajan's Richard Strauss has very few peers.


A Karajan speciality although not my favourite music


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## bharbeke

I loved the first Peer Gynt suite and the Swan Lake suite from the last couple pages of posts. This is one of the most exciting threads in the forum to me as it explores a wide variety of music and has video links to it.


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## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> I loved the first Peer Gynt suite and the Swan Lake suite from the last couple pages of posts. This is one of the most exciting threads in the forum to me as it explores a wide variety of music and has video links to it.


Glad to be of service. It's a fun project for me, too. But the more comments I get the more excited I am to do it. So keep them coming!


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 14-15
> LP#2707-065
> 
> View attachment 139776
> 
> 
> Verdi, Messa da requiem
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Wiener Singverein, chorus
> Mirella Freni, soprano
> Christa Ludwig, contralto
> Carlo Cossutta, tenor
> Nicolai Ghiarov, bass*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 3-5 January 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 89:11
> *
> Review:* Keeping in mind that choral stuff is not my favorite, I find myself comparing this to the Mozart Requiem, Brahms Ein Deutsches Requem, Beethoven Missa Solemnis, and the Haydn Schopfung from the 60s set. I don't like this as much as any of those (especially the Brahms). I don't think I can fault the playing or the singing, so maybe it's just the material. When the orchestra is going full tilt on the Dies Irae-type passages, I really dig it. I will say, comparing this to the 80s digital Verdi Requiem, recorded with the VPO, I prefer that one. The sound is a bit fuller in the low end and it doesn't require as much monkeying with volume. This 1972 recording is crazy with the dynamic range from piano to forte. Like, too crazy. I do like the album cover quite a bit. I'm a sucker for good typography and a graphic image.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos:*


I have this version of the Requiem and it is a pretty good one. It was a Karajan speciality


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 19
LP#2530-402









R. Strauss Also sprach Zarathustra, op. 30
Vier letzte lieder
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Gundula Janowitz, soprano*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 26 January, 3/14 February, 6 March 1973
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 57:33

*Review:* I have searched for a recording that does it better than this. I haven't found it. The Einleitung is impactful and the tempo is perfect. The organ rumbles, grounding the piece with a beautiful, low bass thrum (you need good speakers or headphones to truly realize it). The climaxes are perfectly timed, not too slow, not too fast. The brass crescendo at the end is practically orgasmic. And that's just the Einleitung. The cellos and violins of the Hinterweltlern are pitch perfect, grounded by the double basses. I could go on in a like vein for the other movements, but I won't. It's just an epochal performance that is rightfully regarded in most circles as unimpeachable. There are those who don't like HvK and the BPO. That's fine. But it's difficult to deny that their style, which may be inappropriate to some material, is perfectly wedded to Strauss. Sensual, histrionic, overflowing.

Aaaanyway, the Lieder are also nice. Janowitz is a whale of a singer and her tone is perfect. I'm not a vocal piece guy for the most part, but found myself enjoying these as well.

Overall, this is probably HvK/BPO's finest record. The Alpensinfonie might compete with it. The digital Metamorphosen. The Sibelius 7. The 70s Eroica and Beethoven 5. But that's pretty much it. If I were going to shoot some records into space to save them from humanity, this would without a doubt be among them.

Oh, and I love the cover. It perfectly encapsulates the grandeur encoded within.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10*

*Videos: *


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## bharbeke

I enjoyed the Smetana Bartered Bride excerpts and Dvorak Scherzo Capriccioso very much.


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 19
> LP#2530-402
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 26 January, 3/14 February, 6 March 1973
> 
> I have searched for a recording that does it better than this. I haven't found it. The Einleitung is impactful and the tempo is perfect. The organ rumbles, grounding the piece with a beautiful, low bass thrum (you need good speakers or headphones to truly realize it). The climaxes are perfectly timed, not too slow, not too fast. The brass crescendo at the end is practically orgasmic. And that's just the Einleitung. The cellos and violins of the Hinterweltlern are pitch perfect, grounded by the double basses. I could go on in a like vein for the other movements, but I won't. It's just an epochal performance that is rightfully regarded in most circles as unimpeachable. There are those who don't like HvK and the BPO. That's fine. But it's difficult to deny that their style, which may be inappropriate to some material, is perfectly wedded to Strauss. Sensual, histrionic, overflowing.
> *


*

Any comments on the digital remake of ASZ from the 1980s (which I happen to have)?*


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## wkasimer

Knorf said:


> It's one of those pieces that is Harder Than You Think. I've heard (and performed with) more than one excellent to great orchestra that stumbled over _Coriolan_ because it wasn't rehearsed enough. People (some conductors, many orchestral musicians) think it is on the difficulty level of _Egmont_. Um, no.


Having recently played both, I agree - Coriolan is vastly more difficult than Egmont, at least from this cellist's point of view.


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## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Any comments on the digital remake of ASZ from the 1980s (which I happen to have)?


I own it as well (I imagine I'll get to it here in two or three months). It's not as explosive or expressive. It's certainly not "bad." (Neither is the 80s Planets, for that matter.) I'm not someone who automatically pooh-poohs HvK's digital output from the 80s. I think the Haydn, Bruckner, and Brahms (which is better than the 70s recordings but not quite as good as the 60s) are fantastic, as are the Metamorphosen and Tod und Verklarung. But the Zarathustra doesn't have the fire and energy of the 70s recording, and the attacks are smoother and less biting.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 20
LP#2707-081









Mahler Symphony 5
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 13-16 February 1973
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 73:45

Review: I will cop to not being all that into Mahler. His symphonies are just too long, and I often find myself engaged by the first movements, only to have my attention wander by the later ones. I have tried renditions by Abbado, Kubelik, Bernstein, Karajan, Mehta, and Solti. Anyway, this recording is well done, as far as I can tell. Instrument groups and percussion are clear, and the playing is good. The adagio seems well done, and the final movement has some excitement. Comparing this to the Bernstein 5th I own, I can find nothing to recommend one over the other, and stylistically they seem quite similar. They're both wonderfully played and too long. If these symphonies were about half the length, I would be a fan.

*Overall Rating: 8/10*

*Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 21
LP#2530-553









Mahler Das Lied von der Erde
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Christa Ludwig, mezzo-soprano
Rene Kollo, tenor*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 7/10 December 1973
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 66:01

*Review:* So here we have the first release of a recording from the Philharmonie. I think the acoustics there are fine, quite good in fact. The material.... I have already established that I am neither a Mahler nor a singing fan. It's fine. Christa Ludwig and Rene Kollo are both fine singers. I was kind of chugging along, very mildly enjoying the songs..... and then Der Abschied hit me like a ton of bricks. Good old Mahler. He can make thirty minutes feel like fifty in a way that few others can match. By the way, I wish this didn't have the boring rainbow cover above, but the cool Asian-Art-Nouveau one below.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 22
LP#2707-084








Mendelssohn Symphony No. 1
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 9/11 September & 1 November 1972
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
Total time: 30:29

*Review:* I love Karajan's Mendelssohn. I own a cycle by Gardiner and the LSO, and while it is estimable (and very fast), the weight that the BPO puts behind it in these recordings really does it for me. Is it Beethovenian or Brahmsian? Sure. Is that a problem? Nah. Anyway, the recorded sound here is excellent, if perhaps just a tad flabby in the bassy bandwidths. The instruments are well miked and when things get quiet, there is good dynamic range. The Menuetto is especially good here, but really all four movements are good. All in all, a rock solid Mendelssohn that I never really tire of.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 22
> LP#2707-084
> 
> View attachment 140095
> 
> Mendelssohn Symphony No. 1
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 9/11 September & 1 November 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
> Total time: 30:29
> 
> *Review:* I love Karajan's Mendelssohn. I own a cycle by Gardiner and the LSO, and while it is estimable (and very fast), the weight that the BPO puts behind it in these recordings really does it for me. Is it Beethovenian or Brahmsian? Sure. Is that a problem? Nah. Anyway, the recorded sound here is excellent, if perhaps just a tad flabby in the bassy bandwidths. The insruments are well miked and when things get quiet, there is good dynamic range. The Menuetto is especially good here, but really all four movements are good. All in all, a rock solid Mendelssohn that I never really tire of.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


Terrific performances. I had the Abaddo in the 'Song of Praise' and didn't rate the work. How different Karajan makes it sound!


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## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> Terrific performances. I had the Abaddo in the 'Song of Praise' and didn't rate the work. How different Karajan makes it sound!


Mendelssohn 2 by HVK/BPO is indeed terrific! Listening now and posting review.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 23
LP#2707-084









Mendelssohn Symphony 2 op. 52, "Hymn of Praise"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Edith Mathis & Lisolette Rebmann, sopranos
Werner Hollweg, tenor
Chro der Deutschen Oper Berlin, choir*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 7-11 Sebtember 1972 & 23 February 1973
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
Total time: 69:41

*Review:* It's fascinating to hear the difference between this recording from JCK and the 1st symphony in the Philharmonie. It seems to me they haven't yet learned to tame the Philharmonie's acoustic properties, while they can do JCK in their sleep. The bass flabbiness I noted in the 1st is absent here - instead just beautifully crisp, clear sound, with excellent bass and balance throughout. It's also a beautifully played performance. The singing is excellent, and perfectly modulated with the orchestral backing. I really can find nothing to criticize. Therefore...

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 24-26
LP#2711-012









JS Bach, St. Matthew's Passion, BWV 244
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein
Chor der Deutschen Oper Berlin
Knabenstimmen des Staats- und Domchores Berlin
Peter Schreier & Horst Laubenthal, tenors
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Christa Ludwig, contralto
Walter Berry & Anton Diakov, basses*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, 14 December 1971, 5-7 January/14 February/7-26 June/1 July/1 November 1972
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 204:08

*Review: *I believe I have established my general "meh" feeling towards choral works. But hot damn, the sound quality on this recording is STUNNING. Orchestral passages are deep and enveloping, singing feels like it's in the room, the meld between the two is excellent. Truly superlative. It's still not my cup of tea for a long listening session, but I found it involving enough to look up the libretto and follow along. I have no alternative recordings to compare to, so I can only go by my own criterion for a single recording - I found it totally convincing.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*970's Disc 27
LP#2530 416









Mendelssohn Symphony 4 op. 90 "Italian"
Symphony No. 5 op. 107 "Reformation"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 1,8,22 January & 17 February 1971; 14/16 February 1972
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
Total time: 61:28

*Review:* What a positively splendid disc. Sound quality is superlative, especially percussion, which seems integral to these symphonies. Piano passages are just as beaituflly caught as forte ones, though, with some excellent quiet string passages. The HVK/BPO Mendelssohn cycle overall is a truly excellent one. It is much in keeping with the orchestral style they had cultivated over the preceding decade or so, but still preserves some of the play and lilt that marks Mendelssohn (especially in the 4th). 
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 24-26
> LP#2711-012
> 
> View attachment 140177
> 
> 
> JS Bach, St. Matthew's Passion, BWV 244
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Wiener Singverein
> Chor der Deutschen Oper Berlin
> Knabenstimmen des Staats- und Domchores Berlin
> Peter Schreier & Horst Laubenthal, tenors
> Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone
> Gundula Janowitz, soprano
> Christa Ludwig, contralto
> Walter Berry & Anton Diakov, basses*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, 14 December 1971, 5-7 January/14 February/7-26 June/1 July/1 November 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Cord Garben
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 204:08
> 
> *Review: *I believe I have established my general "meh" feeling towards choral works. But hot damn, the sound quality on this recording is STUNNING. Orchestral passages are deep and enveloping, singing feels like it's in the room, the meld between the two is excellent. Truly superlative. It's still not my cup of tea for a long listening session, but I found it involving enough to look up the libretto and follow along. I have no alternative recordings to compare to, so I can only go by my own criterion for a single recording - I found it totally convincing.
> *
> Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos: *


I have this recording and it comes out if I want a romantic view of Bach.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *970's Disc 27
> LP#2530 416
> 
> View attachment 140191
> 
> 
> Mendelssohn Symphony 4 op. 90 "Italian"
> Symphony No. 5 op. 107 "Reformation"
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 1,8,22 January & 17 February 1971; 14/16 February 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
> Total time: 61:28
> 
> *Review:* What a positively splendid disc. Sound quality is superlative, especially percussion, which seems integral to these symphonies. Piano passages are just as beaituflly caught as forte ones, though, with some excellent quiet string passages. The HVK/BPO Mendelssohn cycle overall is a truly excellent one. It is much in keeping with the orchestral style they had cultivated over the preceding decade or so, but still preserves some of the play and lilt that marks Mendelssohn (especially in the 4th).
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Fabulous playing!


----------



## bharbeke

The Mendelssohn 1 recording was outstanding!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*970's Disc 28
LP#2530 432









Carl Orff, De temporum fine comoedia
Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Christa Ludwig, mezzo soprano
Peter Schreier, tenor
Josef Greindl, bass
Rolf Boysen (Lucifer), spoken
Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester
Kölner Rundfunkchor, RIAS-Kammerchor, Tölzer Knabenchor*

Recorded at Leverkusen-Wiesdorf, 16-21 July 1973
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
Total time: 62:41

*Review: *As the singers of the first movement screeched into my ears, I thought to myself "This may be it: the worst thing I've ever listened to." Things settled down a bit after the first movement, which apparently was supposed to be a chorus of Sybyls wailing about the end of the world, and there was a bit more variety in percussion and voices. This piece apparently took Orff ten years to compose, and it details a series of prophesies and reflections on God, the universe, time, and endings. I did not find it enjoyable. It was pretentious and grating in the way that the worst products of the 60s and 70s can be. As the chorus chanted "it's the end of the world" for the fiftieth time, it definitely felt like it. Not recommended.
*
Overall Rating: 3/10

Videos:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *970's Disc 27
> LP#2530 416
> 
> View attachment 140191
> 
> 
> Mendelssohn Symphony 4 op. 90 "Italian"
> Symphony No. 5 op. 107 "Reformation"
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 1,8,22 January & 17 February 1971; 14/16 February 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
> Total time: 61:28
> 
> *Review:* What a positively splendid disc. Sound quality is superlative, especially percussion, which seems integral to these symphonies. Piano passages are just as beaituflly caught as forte ones, though, with some excellent quiet string passages. The HVK/BPO Mendelssohn cycle overall is a truly excellent one. It is much in keeping with the orchestral style they had cultivated over the preceding decade or so, but still preserves some of the play and lilt that marks Mendelssohn (especially in the 4th).
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Splendid disc - listening to Symphony 3 'Scottish' as I type.

Agree about the percussion - does anyone know who the tympanist is on this recording?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Splendid disc - listening to Symphony 3 'Scottish' as I type.
> 
> Agree about the percussion - does anyone know who the tympanist is on this recording?


Looks like the tympanist of that era was Oswald Vogler.


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> Looks like the tympanist of that era was Oswald Vogler.


Thanks, ok, I'll try and check that out.

There were many wonderful players down the years, Schwalbe, Mayer, Vogler, Galway, Hauptmann, Koch and so on. Would be good to augment this wonderful thread with something about the musicians of the BPO.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Thanks, ok, I'll try and check that out.
> 
> There were many wonderful players down the years, Schwalbe, Mayer, Vogler, Galway, Hauptmann, Koch and so on. Would be good to augment this wonderful thread with something about the musicians of the BPO.


Some other guys who stand out to me are Thomas Brandis (violin) and Eberhard Finke (cello).

A link about Schwalbe:
https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/titelgeschichten/20192020/michel-schwalbe/


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 29
LP#2530 416









Schumann Symphony No. 3, op. 97 "Rhenish"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin, 4/8 January & 15 February 1971
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Heinz Wildhagen
Total time: 35:50

*Review: *This is lush, big band Schumann, but that doesn't mean it's mushy or hard to distinguish details. Tympani comes through nicely, as do woodwinds. Compared to the Bernstein/VPO rendition I also own, there is more legato but the overall proportions of instrument groups and tempii are very comparable. In some places the additional legato is advantageous, such as in the 2nd movement scherzo. In others, I do wish there were slightly sharper attacks on strings and brass. Overall, this is typical of the whole HVK/BPO Schumann cycle, which this release completes.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 30
LP#2530 527/485









Arnold Schoenberg, Verklärte Nacht, op. 4; Pelleas und Melisande, op. 5
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 24-26 January 1974
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 73:31

*Review: *This record is legendary, and rightly so. Karajan self financed it when DG would not put up the money for recordings of the Second Viennese School. The results clearly indicate a work of passion for both conductor and orchestra. The playing is full-bodied and lush, but what makes it comprehensible is the unerring sense of pulse. I view this as similar to Strauss' Metamorphosen in this way. One could easily get lost and become unmoored while listening, but HVK/BPO do not let this happen. The sound world they create allows for some intensely moving passages, such as the Adagio of the Verklärte Nacht and the finale of the Pelleas. A masterpiece. Certainly in the top ten HVK/BPO recordings. I love the cover, too. By the way, appreciation of this piece is heightened by reading the poem on which it is based.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 30
> LP#2530 527/485
> 
> View attachment 140362
> 
> 
> Arnold Schoenberg, Verklärte Nacht, op. 4; Pelleas und Melisande, op. 5
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 24-26 January 1974
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 73:31
> 
> *Review: *This record is legendary, and rightly so. Karajan self financed it when DG would not put up the money for recordings of the Second Viennese School. The results clearly indicate a work of passion for both conductor and orchestra. The playing is full-bodied and lush, but what makes it comprehensible is the unerring sense of pulse. I view this as similar to Strauss' Metamorphosen in this way. One could easily get lost and become unmoored while listening, but HVK/BPO do not let this happen. The sound world they create allows for some intensely moving passages, such as the Adagio of the Verklärte Nacht and the finale of the Pelleas. A masterpiece. Certainly in the top ten HVK/BPO recordings. I love the cover, too. By the way, appreciation of this piece is heightened by reading the poem on which it is based.
> 
> []


It was said that the numbers of LP boxes sold could have reached the top of the Eiffel Tower!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 31
LP#2530 144/627









Alban Berg: 3 Orchesterstücke, op. 6; 3 Stücke aus der Lyrischen Suite; 
Arnold Schoenberg: Variationen für Orchester, op. 31
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin 8/9 December 1973 (3 Orchesterstücke);
Philharmonie, Berlin, 9,20,22 September & 6 December 1973 (Lyrischen); 
3,5 January & 11-18 February 1974 (Variationen)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 61:14

*Review:* This recording has an even tougher row to *** [[[farming implement that rhymes with "row"]]] than the previous, since the material is more challenging and less "romantic." It is a success. This is not my preferred repertoire for listening, but I was still engrossed and convinced. HVK/BPO give this a narrative pulse, and the sound on offer is tremendous. The little details of string plucks, xylophone hits, and so on is really intoxicating. Woodwinds in particular sound crystal clear. There is little difference between the recorded acoustics of the two venues, also. I really have no cause to downgrade this recording at all. It's another triumph.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 31
> LP#2530 144/627
> 
> View attachment 140397
> 
> 
> Alban Bergm 3 Orchesterstucke, op. 6; 3 Studcke aus der Lyrischen Suite; Variationen fur Orchester, op. 31
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin 8/9 December 1973 (3 Orchesterstucke);
> Philharmonie, Berlin, 9,20,22 September & 6 December 1973 (Lyrischen);
> 3,5 January & 11-18 February 1974 (Variationen)
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 61:14


Karajan spent an effort to convince producer to make recordings of the second Wiener school, and the result was a big success! A big success for HvK of course, not for the popularity of the second Wiener school.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Though I personally think the 2nd Viennese School produced some very beautiful music, I totally agree with everything else you say about HvK’s recordings of them, Matthew. The music definitely sounds convincing in his hands, and it comes across as simply the extension of late Romanticism that it is.


----------



## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Though I personally think the 2nd Viennese School produced some very beautiful music, I totally agree with everything else you say about HvK's recordings of them, Matthew. The music definitely sounds convincing in his hands, and it comes across as simply the extension of late Romanticism that it is.


Absolutely! Karajan was my first introduction to Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, and I very much still revere those recordings.


----------



## Eclectic Al

Knorf said:


> Absolutely! Karajan was my first introduction to Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, and I very much still revere those recordings.


Yeah. For me those composers were heading off up a blind alley. However, Karajan's set of recordings showed that the brickwork on the wall at the end of that alley could be very beautiful.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 32
LP#2531 146









Anton Webern: Passacaglia for Orchestra, op. 1; 5 Movements (version for string orchestra), op. 5; 
6 Stücke für Orchester, op. 6; Symphony for Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, 2 Horns, Harp and Strings, op. 21
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at 
Philharmonie, Berlin, 11 February 1974 (Passacaglia);
Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin 19-20 November & 6 December 1973 (5 Movements);
Jesus-Christus-Kirche, Berlin 3 March 1973 (6 Stücke);
Philharmonie, Berlin, 18 February 1974 (Symphony);
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 46:00

*Review:* The Passacaglia here is amazing from a sonic perspective, with the smallest details present and the bass tones underlying the music resonating richly. Probably the best Philharmonie recording so far. The JCK pieces meet the typical standard of sonic excellence that has been set. The Symphony also sounds great. From an enjoyment perspective, the piece that really speaks to me is the Passacaglia, because of its greater sort of narrative feeling. The Symphony and shorter pieces are a little too noodly and (Seemingly) unstructured for me to go back to again and again.

All in all, this set has been truly wonderful, and has been a fun journey to go on at this point in my CM appreciation. When I first bought this a year or so ago, I didn't like it. But my other listening since, and listening to these "decade" box sets has exposed me to and attuned my ear to some more challenging pieces, such as Stravinsky, Hoenegger, and so on. If these recordings end up being the ones Karajan is unanimously praised for, that's not too bad an epitaph.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 33-34
LP#2721 077








Prussian and Austrian Marches
*
Recorded at
Philharmonie, Berlin, 2/7/8 March 1793
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 83:37

*Review:* Is this album absurd? Yes. Is the art exceedingly strange, like a cross between a heavy metal album and a fascist pamphlet? Yes. But is it still kind of compelling and do I play it when I'm doing chores? Guilty as charged. You can't say that HVK/BPO didn't give this music their full attention and technical commitment. The highlights for me would be the Königgrätzer Marsch and Unter dem Doppeladler. Overall, it's a heck of a lot of march music, and a little bit goes a long way.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*

A playlist broken out individually:


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 33-34
> LP#2721 077
> View attachment 140491
> 
> 
> Prussian and Austrian Marches
> *
> Recorded at
> Philharmonie, Berlin, 2/7/8 March 1793
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 83:37
> 
> *Review:* Is this album absurd? Yes. Is the art exceedingly strange, like a cross between a heavy metal album and a fascist pamphlet? Yes. But is it still kind of compelling and do I play it when I'm doing chores? Guilty as charged. You can't say that HVK/BPO didn't give this music their full attention and technical commitment. The highlights for me would be the Königgrätzer Marsch and Unter dem Doppeladler. Overall, it's a heck of a lot of march music, and a little bit goes a long way.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 8/10
> 
> Videos:*
> 
> A playlist broken out individually:


This cover is absurd and I like it.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 35-36
LP#2709 049









J.S.Bach, Mass in B Minor, BWV 232
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Gundula Janowitz, soprano
Christa Ludwig, contralto
Peter Schreier, tenor
Robert Kerns, baritone
Karl Ridderbusch, bass
*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 23-28 September & 23 November 1973; 3-5 January 1974
Recording Producer: Hans Weber, Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 126:15

*Review:* The sound quality here is quite good, with clear textures throughout. The material, however, is not as compelling to me as the St. Matthew Passion from 1972 (Discs 24-26). The singers do a good job and the chorus and soloists are well modulated and the orchestra plays at a commendable level to allow their work its best showcase. It's all just a little sedate for my tastes. I like the larger numbers with the full chorus, but the solo work isn't my cup of tea. I don't have any other recordings to compare this with, so my feeling right now is it's just the material that doesn't do it for me.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 37
LP#2530 597









Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, op. 14
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 14-15 October 1974 & 21 February 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 53:03

*Review: *This is one of the fastest turnarounds for a re-recording yet, HVK/BPO's previous Fantastique having been recorded in 1964 at the JCK. But the records are quite different. This one is sonically superior for the most part, though I think the dynamic range from piano to forte is a bit excessive. With that said, sounds are quite a bit clearer than the 60s record, especially in forte passages. I found myself liking this recording more than the 60s, though I wish the piano passages were louder. Highlights include the march and the Witches' Sabbath. The percussion and the _col legno _strings were very clear and enjoyable, as were the bells. A very organic feeling recording overall I think this one gets the nod over the 60s, despite there still being room for technical improvement.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 35-36
> LP#2709 049
> 
> View attachment 140530
> 
> 
> J.S.Bach, Mass in B Minor, BWV 232
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Wiener Singverein, chorus
> Gundula Janowitz, soprano
> Christa Ludwig, contralto
> Peter Schreier, tenor
> Robert Kerns, baritone
> Karl Ridderbusch, bass
> *
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 23-28 September & 23 November 1973; 3-5 January 1974
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber, Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 126:15
> 
> *Review:* The sound quality here is quite good, with clear textures throughout. The material, however, is not as compelling to me as the St. Matthew Passion from 1972 (Discs 24-26). The singers do a good job and the chorus and soloists are well modulated and the orchestra plays at a commendable level to allow their work its best showcase. It's all just a little sedate for my tastes. I like the larger numbers with the full chorus, but the solo work isn't my cup of tea. I don't have any other recordings to compare this with, so my feeling right now is it's just the material that doesn't do it for me.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos:*


Karajan was himself disappointed with this recording after his superb 1950s recording.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Discs 38-39
LP#2707 085









Anton Bruckner, Symphony No. 8 (Hass Edition)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 20-23 January & 22 April 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 82:26
*
Review: *Karajan's first Bruckner 8 for DG is titanic. The Philharmonie provides wondrous acoustics. Small details are evident, but brass resounds powerfully. The highlight of this rendition is certainly the Adagio, which is truly mystical and has amazing string textures. It begins at 31:55 in the appended video. The finale is also tremendous. HVK/BPO do a great job of keeping a narrative pulse going throughout this long symphony. I do think this is probably surpassed by HVK/VPO's digital Bruckner 8 in the 80s, but it's a close call.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Discs 40-41
LP#2707 106









Gustav Mahler, Symphony No. 6 "Tragic"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 17-20 February 1975; 18-19 & 9 March 1977
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 83:02
*
Review: *I have been a bit down on Mahler. I still think his symphonies are too long. But I was pretty wowed by this one. It is definitely a unique sound world, and the percussion is what really sets it apart. Triangles, wood blocks, xylophones, wondrous drums. The recorded sound here is 21st century digital quality - truly an achievement for mid to late 70s analog. At least based on my listening (as an avowed non-Mahlerian) I find this to be Mahler's most accessible symphony so far.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 42
LP#2530 674









Anton Bruckner, Symphony No. 4 "Romantic" (Original Edition)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 21 April 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:16
*
Review: *Something about this recording doesn't do it for me. There is a crowded, "close" feeling to the proceedings that was not present in the last Bruckner, and certainly not the Mahler 6. The playing is all top-notch, of course, and the whole thing is slightly to the brisk side of average in terms of duration. This one just isn't giving me the same holographic clarity that the Mahler, Tchaikovsky, and Beethoven seem to in this venue.

*Overall Rating: 7/10
*
*Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 43
LP#2530 677









Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 1, op. 23
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Lazar Berman, piano*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 17-18 November 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 37:09
*
Review:* When I say this is the least of HVK/BPO's 3 Tchaikovsky piano concertos, I don't want to give the impression that it is bad. Far from it. It is just surpassed in terms of overall performance by the 60s disc with Richter, and by the 80s disc with Kissin in terms of sonics. Initially, I was skeptical of this recording for those very reasons. This is the first time I've heard it. As I settled in, though, my skepticism vanished and I was swept up in the performance, which has excellent playing by both Berman and the BPO, the finale in particular being very well done. But I have the other two recordings on my player, and comparison reveals them to be better. If they didn't exist, this would stand as a superb rendition of the piece. But they do exist, and they outclass this one.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## Enthusiast

I am not sure I get the point of this thread. Maybe I missed something but it seems that all the reviews are very positive - even the ones that apply to real stinkers. It all reads like a fanboys site or mere publicity. I get that some listeners love Karajan so much that he never did wrong for them but the review format seems not to be the best way to express that.


----------



## JAS

Enthusiast said:


> I am not sure I get the point of this thread. Maybe I missed something but it seems that all the reviews are very positive - even the ones that apply to real stinkers. It all reads like a fanboys site or mere publicity. I get that some listeners love Karajan so much that he never did wrong for them but the review format seems not to be the best way to express that.


Perhaps you might point out what you think are the real stinkers, as a dissenting view (politely, of course).


----------



## Enthusiast

^ I am not sure that would be a good idea in this thread! 

But I would like to see some of the reviews reflecting the fact that not everything he did was gold or at least silver - it would help to build some trust in the value of the reviews - and I would also like to see some very brief comparison with non-Karajan alternatives in the reviews, some context. 

But don't mind me - the thread seems to be popular (and peaceful!) - but I just don't get its purpose.


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## MatthewWeflen

The point of the thread, as stated early on, is to be a compendium, full of information, exploring the discography of the DG "decade" boxes for people who don't own them. The reviews are just for fun, and are (mostly) relative to his own output. I have reviewed several releases negatively (the Carl Orff being the most recent, one page ago, the Four Seasons prior to that). Reviews, as always, are inherently subjective. I am coming from the position of someone who bought three giant boxes of Karajan for his own enjoyment, so take them for what they're worth.

You are welcome to provide alternatives. Perhaps they would be more useful if they included a short description of the differences and a YouTube video so that people can make actual comparisons, as opposed to bald assertions of superiority with no support.


----------



## Eclectic Al

Looking back to the original post the intent was to create a sort of reference list for a lot of Karajan recordings, with brief reviews and some comparisons (primarily between HvK recordings rather than against others).

I think the point is that people probably have an idea of what HvK might serve up, so the brief review will let you know if the particular recording is out of line in terms of poor recording quality (or excellent recording quality) or unusual in some interpretative way relative to what one might anticipate from Herbert.

I think that's not an unreasonable endeavour, and likely to be more useful than yet another thread where someone says I like the recording by Klemperer (or whoever) and then someone else says they prefer Szell (often with an implication that the first person is an idiot), and round and round it goes.

I have been finding it entirely refreshing that there is not much of the usual I Like/You Like name calling.
If someone wanted to repeat the endeavour for another conductor then I would probably tune into that too.


----------



## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> The point of the thread, as stated early on, is to be a compendium, full of information, exploring the discography of the DG "decade" boxes for people who don't own them. The reviews are just for fun, and are (mostly) relative to his own output. I have reviewed several releases negatively (the Carl Orff being the most recent, one page ago, the Four Seasons prior to that). Reviews, as always, are inherently subjective. I am coming from the position of someone who bought three giant boxes of Karajan for his own enjoyment, so take them for what they're worth.
> 
> You are welcome to provide alternatives. Perhaps they would be more useful if they included a short description of the differences and a YouTube video so that people can make actual comparisons, as opposed to bald assertions of superiority with no support.


Our posts crossed.


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## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Our posts crossed.


I resemble this remark


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## DavidA

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I am not sure that would be a good idea in this thread!
> 
> But I would like to see some of the reviews reflecting the fact that not everything he did was gold or at least silver - it would help to build some trust in the value of the reviews - and I would also like to see some very brief comparison with non-Karajan alternatives in the reviews, some context.
> 
> But don't mind me - the thread seems to be popular (and peaceful!) - but I just don't get its purpose.


It does seem to me that Matthew and certain others of us do point out where we think Karajan missed the mark. For example, I commented that he himself was disappointed with the Back mass in B min. So it's not all fanboys stuff.


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## MatthewWeflen

I also run a Star Trek blog with a friend of mine. There are many positive reviews of Star Trek episodes on it. Because, well, I like Star Trek.

http://www.treknobabble.net/

Perhaps it would have been better if I had rated these albums on a 5 point scale with a 3 being average, as we did with Star Trek. C'est La Vie.


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## Knorf

Enthusiast said:


> I am not sure I get the point of this thread. Maybe I missed something but it seems that all the reviews are very positive - even the ones that apply to real stinkers...


You missed something.

But the fact is, Karajan really didn't make that many "stinkers."


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## Brahmsianhorn

Well, if you pardon the criticism, I think it is fair to say that for most people this thread is entertaining but not very useful, since the only frame of reference is Karajan himself as opposed to a wider range of other conductors and styles. For most of us, interest in recordings began with an interest in the music first and then a process of discovering which recordings we like and don't like. Here the emphasis seems to be on Karajan's brand as a musical universe unto itself.


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## MatthewWeflen

> You are welcome to provide alternatives. Perhaps they would be more useful if they included a short description of the differences and a YouTube video so that people can make actual comparisons, as opposed to bald assertions of superiority with no support.


Please see above.......

Also, is there a separate forum where "most people" get together to comment on the relative usefulness of threads?


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> Please see above.......
> 
> Also, is there a separate forum where "most people" get together to comment on the relative usefulness of threads?


It's not about providing alternatives so much as having gone through the process of comparison to arrive at an opinion. I wouldn't recommend a Furtwangler recording to people if all I knew of the piece was just the Furtwangler recording. It would not represent a particularly useful opinion.

There are many threads where someone says "Hey, I like this symphony, any good recommendations?" Those are very educational.


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## MatthewWeflen

> I think that's not an unreasonable endeavour, and likely to be more useful than yet another thread where someone says I like the recording by Klemperer (or whoever) and then someone else says they prefer Szell (often with an implication that the first person is an idiot), and round and round it goes.
> 
> I have been finding it entirely refreshing that there is not much of the usual I Like/You Like name calling.
> If someone wanted to repeat the endeavour for another conductor then I would probably tune into that too.


I will say, that I agree heartily with this statement by Eclectic Al. One of the most consistently tiresome aspects of other threads is people arguing over which flavor of ice cream they prefer, and impugning the ice cream preferences of others. I don't find that "useful" at all.


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## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It's not about providing alternatives so much as *having gone through the process of comparison to arrive at an opinion. *I wouldn't recommend a Furtwangler recording to people if all I knew of the piece was just the Furtwangler recording. It would not represent a particularly useful opinion.
> 
> There are many threads where someone says "Hey, I like this symphony, any good recommendations?" Those are very educational.


I welcome you to read the following invitation again:



> You are welcome to provide alternatives. Perhaps they would be more *useful *if they included a short description of the differences and a YouTube video *so that people can make actual comparisons*, as opposed to bald assertions of superiority with no support.


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> I will say, that I agree heartily with this statement by Eclectic Al. One of the most consistently tiresome aspects of other threads is people arguing over which flavor of ice cream they prefer, and impugning the ice cream preferences of others. I don't find that "useful" at all.


One of the most consistently illuminating and educational aspects of other threads is people with diverse tastes and exposure civilly discussing what they like or don't like and comparing notes. The recent Klemperer thread is an example. I like diversity of opinion. That's why I'm here.


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## MatthewWeflen

One of the most consistently irritating aspects of internet fora is instances when people read a sentence composed of fifteen or more words, with multiple ideas, descriptions and qualifications, and respond to one of them while ignoring the rest.

I welcome you to propose alternative listening suggestions, including a YouTube video SO THAT PEOPLE CAN MAKE THEIR OWN COMPARISONS.

I do not welcome pointless posts in which people say things like "Karajan is crap. Furtwangler/Szell/Celibidache/Klemperer/Whoever-the-hell is better in this" and then leave it at that. Such posts merely express an opinion and make a negative value judgment about the opinions of others.

I invite those who find this thread useless as it stands to kindly remove themselves to another thread which is more to their liking.


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## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Well, if you pardon the criticism, I think it is fair to say that for most people this thread is entertaining but not very useful...


Keep your clothes on, and speak for yourself only, please; kindly cease assuming you are entitled to speak for others.



> ...since the only frame of reference is Karajan himself as opposed to a wider range of other conductors and styles.


There was never a prohibition in this thread against discussing alternatives or making comparisons.



> For most of us, interest in recordings began with an interest in the music first and then a process of discovering which recordings we like and don't like.


Typical Brahmsianhorn presumption. I'm quite sure _everyone_ who has posted here started with liking music itself first, and then began the process you describe. In fact, this thread is very obviously an ongoing component of that process. At no time has anyone put forth Karajan's vast recorded legacy as being an endpoint in itself.

I for one appreciate this thread because it has revealed perhaps a few of Karajan's recordings that I have overlooked or rejected unfairly, and might wish to investigate or revisit.



> Here the emphasis seems to be on Karajan's brand as a musical universe unto itself.


Well, duh. That's the point. It _is_ very nearly a musical universe unto itself. But there is more than one musical universe, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with a thread treating Karajan's legacy as a focus, just as I did with Skrowaczewski a few months back.

If you feel the urge to make a similar thread about your hero Furtwängler, you go right ahead.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> If you feel the urge to make a similar thread about your hero Furtwängler, you go right ahead.


Not at all, which is my point


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 44
LP#2530 698









Liszt, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 4, S359/4
Hungarian Rhapsody No. 5, S359/5
Tasso: Lamento e Trionfo, S96
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra *

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 20/21 October & 13 November 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 50:04

*Review: *HVK/BPO have not yet produced a less than convincing Liszt, and this is no exception. The Tasso in particular is sweeping and emotionally involving, especially in its (triumphant) finale. Both rhapsodies are beautifully played as well. Acoustics are truly superb in this recording, with excellent vibrating bass tones and ringing percussion, and nothing ever ever feels crowded or gauzy.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## Eclectic Al

I am not sure about posting this. Anyway, thanks for keeping on with the intention of the thread. There has been a detour into tedious nonsense, but good to be back on track.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Well, if you pardon the criticism, I think it is fair to say that for most people this thread is entertaining but not very useful, since the only frame of reference is Karajan himself as opposed to a wider range of other conductors and styles. For most of us, interest in recordings began with an interest in the music first and then a process of discovering which recordings we like and don't like. Here the emphasis seems to be on Karajan's brand as a musical universe unto itself.


If it is not very interesting for you then you have the option yourself of not reading it and the option for the rest of us of not contributing to it and leaving it for those who enjoy it!


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> One of the most consistently illuminating and educational aspects of other threads is people with diverse tastes and exposure civilly discussing what they like or don't like and comparing notes. The recent Klemperer thread is an example. I like diversity of opinion. That's why I'm here.


Well stay off this particular thread then! I don't go on to threads which do not interest me.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> If it is not very interesting for you then you have the option yourself of not reading it and the option for the rest of us of not contributing to it and leaving it for those who enjoy it!


All I'm saying is that liking Karajan is no crime, but you should listen and be open to other recordings as well. You may still like Karajan the best, but what value is there in only having one frame of reference for these great works?


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## Eclectic Al

Brahmsianhorn said:


> All I'm saying is that liking Karajan is no crime, but you should listen and be open to other recordings as well. You may still like Karajan the best, but what value is there in only having one frame of reference for these great works?


Not the point of this thread. It does not consider how to make a good pancake either. Not relevant.


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## MatthewWeflen

At no point do I claim that HVK/BPO is the final word on any piece of music. They're clearly not, and the very notion of any recording or interpretation eclipsing all others is likely impossible.

I have three big boxes of HVK/BPO. I am going through them disc by disc. If you find it interesting, congratulations. If you don't, there's plenty of forum left to peruse.


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## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Not the point of this thread. It does not consider how to make a good pancake either. Not relevant.


I do have a very good pancake recipe if anyone's interested. But you'll only really enjoy it if you like a particular style of pancake. And if you don't, you're clearly an idiot.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> All I'm saying is that liking Karajan is no crime, but you should listen and be open to other recordings as well. You may still like Karajan the best, but what value is there in only having one frame of reference for these great works?


Who says we are not open to other recordings? You appear to think you have the ability of some kind of guru to instruct others! :lol:


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> I do have a very good pancake recipe if anyone's interested. But you'll only really enjoy it if you like a particular style of pancake. And if you don't, you're clearly an idiot.


Huh? No one is saying anyone is an idiot for what they like or they don't like. What I'm referring to is how you state throughout this thread that your only exposure to many works is through Karajan.


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## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Huh? No one is saying anyone is an idiot for what they like or they don't like. What I'm referring to is how you state throughout this thread that your only exposure to many works is through Karajan.


"It is what it is."

I have a limited budget. More that some perhaps, but less than many.

When a recording from one of my three big boxes is not convincing. I seek out an alternative. For instance: Pinnock's Bach. When my big boxes do not contain certain repertoire, I seek them out. For instance: Bernstein's Copland, Sanderling's Shostakovich, Belohlavek's Dvorak.

I state here whether I find the recording convincing. If I do not, I state where I've sought an alternative.

When the work is clearly a work of greatness, I seek out alternate takes to augment the material in the boxes (for instance: Beethoven and Sibelius cycles).

But when I do find it convincing, I don't feel the need to immediately supplement it with a dozen alternatives. That's not the point of the thread. It's an exploration of the contents of the three big boxes, not the universe outside those cardboard walls.

The rest of the forum is more than adequate to explore that territory. If every thread explored everything all the time, they would all be useless.


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> It's an exploration of the contents of the three big boxes, *not the universe outside those cardboard walls.*


And for many that is our entire issue with Karajan's effect on classical music.

Rest assured, if I am starting or participating in a Furtwangler thread, by definition the topic not only encompasses the entire musical universe but topics outside of music as well.

And, uh, there is this inexpensive thing called YouTube. I think you're familiar with it.


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## Eclectic Al

Brahmsianhorn said:


> And for many that is our entire issue with Karajan's effect on classical music.
> 
> Rest assured, if I am starting or participating in a Furtwangler thread, by definition the topic not only encompasses the entire musical universe but topics outside of music as well.
> 
> And, uh, there is this inexpensive thing called YouTube. I think you're familiar with it.


The contents of which might be the topic for a different thread. But not this one.


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## HenryPenfold

I've been off the forum for a few days, so forgive me for going back quite a few posts to your views on Karajan's 14th October 1974, completed 21st January 1975 Symphonie Fantastique. You've really whetted my appetite! 

I think I'll search around for a cheap second hand copy ........

When I decided to get a CD of HvK's SF, I opted for the earlier recording (27th - 30th December 1964), cover shown below. Largely because it was recorded in the Jesus-Christus Kirche.














MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 37
> LP#2530 597
> 
> View attachment 140615
> 
> 
> Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, op. 14
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 14-15 October 1974 & 21 February 1975
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 53:03
> *
> Review: *This is one of the fastest turnarounds for a re-recording yet, HVK/BPO's previous Fantastique having been recorded in 1964 at the JCK. But the records are quite different. This one is sonically superior for the most part, though I think the dynamic range from piano to forte is a bit excessive. With that said, sounds are quite a bit clearer than the 60s record, especially in forte passages. I found myself liking this recording more than the 60s, though I wish the piano passages were louder. Highlights include the march and the Witches' Sabbath. I think this one gets the nod over the 60s, despite there still being room for improvement.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Huh? No one is saying anyone is an idiot for what they like or they don't like. What I'm referring to is how you state throughout this thread that your only exposure to many works is through Karajan.


Actually exposure to works through HvK is no bad thing. You could certainly do a lot worse


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> And for many that is our entire issue with Karajan's effect on classical music.
> 
> Rest assured, if I am starting or participating in a Furtwangler thread, by definition the topic not only encompasses the entire musical universe but topics outside of music as well.
> 
> And, uh, there is this inexpensive thing called YouTube. I think you're familiar with it.


Why do you insist on giving e dry one else advice on what they should or shouldn't like? And as for Karajan's affect on classical music, to sell 200 million records, most of which were of a high quality and very well done is not a bad effect I wouldn't have thought? But of course I know some people do not like success. If he had never sold a record that would've been a plus in some peoples eyes


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## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> I've been off the forum for a few days, so forgive me for going back quite a few posts to your views on Karajan's 14th October 1974, completed 21st January 1975 Symphonie Fantastique. You've really whetted my appetite!
> 
> I think I'll search around for a cheap second hand copy ........
> 
> When I decided to get a CD of HvK's SF, I opted for the earlier recording (27th - 30th December 1964), cover shown below. Largely because it was recorded in the Jesus-Christus Kirche.


Both recordings are high quality. I'm kind of a detail snob, and I think however they miked the Philharmonie versus the JCK for this piece, it delivered more detail. But the JCK has a sweet-sweet sound. I think you can justifiably avoid most of the St. Moritz records (which are mostly baroque material that HVK perhaps wasn't temperamentally suited for).

A CD-quality FLAC download of the 70s recording can be found at Presto Classical quite cheaply. They have MP3 as well.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7990776--berlioz-symphonie-fantastique


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> Both recordings are high quality. I'm kind of a detail snob, and I think however they miked the Philharmonie versus the JCK for this piece, it delivered more detail. But the JCK has a sweet-sweet sound. I think you can justifiably avoid most of the St. Moritz records (which are mostly baroque material that HVK perhaps wasn't temperamentally suited for).


Well I just picked up a second hand copy of the 1975 Philharmonie for £3.48 ($4.57 in colonial currency) incl. postage. I eagerly await its arrival!

Regarding the St. Moritz recordings, I quite like them. I get your point about HvK and Baroque, but I've plenty of emaciated, scritchy-scratchy, speed-freak Baroque CDs, so HvK is often a welcome change!


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## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Well I just picked up a second hand copy of the 1975 Philharmonie for £3.48 ($4.57 in colonial currency) incl. postage. I eagerly await its arrival!
> 
> Regarding the St. Moritz recordings, I quite like them. I get your point about HvK and Baroque, but I've plenty of emaciated, scritchy-scratchy, speed-freak Baroque CDs, so HvK is often a welcome change!


Oh, I don't necessarily mind "plush" baroque. But when I can't hear the instrumental parts, it annoys me. It's how far the harpsichord gets buried in the St. Moritz mixes that drives me to distraction.

For whatever reason, they did a way better job on Handel's Concerto Grossi in St. Moritz (which I loved, though I recently did supplement them with the new Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin recordings) than they did with Bach. The Brandenburg set they did in the Philharmonie is still not ideal for me, but it is better than St. Moritz in the 60s.


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## bharbeke

Thank you for sharing your Trek website, Matthew! It will give me something to read while listening to some Karajan Liszt and other music.

Do you have any Trek podcasts besides your own that you would recommend? A couple I like are Mission Log and the newly started Infinite Diversity. The 7th Rule with Cirroc Lofton is also pretty cool.


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## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> Thank you for sharing your Trek website, Matthew! It will give me something to read while listening to some Karajan Liszt and other music.
> 
> Do you have any Trek podcasts besides your own that you would recommend? A couple I like are Mission Log and the newly started Infinite Diversity. The 7th Rule with Cirroc Lofton is also pretty cool.


Inglorious Treksperts is pretty good, in that they strongly agree with my post-2009 "Trek" dislike  Red Letter Media has some pretty good Trek content on YouTube, including their most recent video.


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## Mannheim Rocket

This is my first post here, but I have been following this thread for quite a while, and it has helped me discover some wonderful recordings (particularly the Strauss tone poems posted a few weeks ago). One can certainly enjoy a vast majority these recordings while still recognizing that there may be better versions of particular works available. I do think there is a value to box sets like these that go through chunks of the repertoire in that a love for a piece you haven't heard in a long time can be rekindled, or you can encounter a work that you are unfamiliar with. That sense of discovery is one of the things that makes music so special. Additionally, it's fun to see how conductor's interpretations differ from one another and even themselves when they rerecord works. All in all, I've found this a fun journey to follow along with, and have enjoyed checking in every day or two for updates.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 45
LP#2530 699









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 5 op. 64
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 22 November 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 49:28

*Review:* HVK recorded Tchaikovsky's 5th many times. Of the three DG accounts (there is a BPO account from EMI and a PHilharmonia account from Columbia as well, but I have not heard them as yet), this is the strongest by a fair stretch. It is sonically superior to the 60s rendition, which has a veiled quality comparatively. Here, the percussion rings out loud and clear, the basses are rich and meaty, but nothing feels crowded acoustically. The BPO is at the height of their powers here, in strings, brass, woodwinds and percussion. This account is a bit more thrilling than the 80s VPO rendition, too. This is full-tilt in the climaxes and quite beautiful in the slow passages, which seems to suit the material. The cover is a bore. I feel like Tchaikovsky is begging for one of the more artsy covers, depicting a wintry Russian scene.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## Knorf

Yep. That's a truly great Tchaikovsky 5th, up there with the best. The second movement, in particular, is almost unbelievably gorgeous, just as it should be.


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## HenryPenfold

Thank you for this Matthew. I agree that this is a remarkable performance, one of the very best.

Regarding the cover, although I always like to see photos of HvK in his heyday, I bought this on the Galleria label in the 90s and really love the artwork that went with that series.

Interestingly, contrary to some people's erroneous narrative on Karajan, he was actually modest. As Richard Osborne observes, from the 1960s onwards Deutsche Grammophon received many directives from Karajan that his image should _not _appear on record sleeves and these directives were enforced. In 1973, the DG catalogue showed 33 Karajan album covers and only 5 had an image of Karajan on them. Only one had his name in bigger print than the composer's name (The Ring Cycle box).* I congratulate him on this - it irritates me when I see the conductor's name emblazoned on the album cover and I have to go looking for the composer and orchestra.

*Richard Osborne - Herbert von Karajan: A Life In Music p.64


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## DavidA

HenryPenfold said:


> Thank you for this Matthew. I agree that this is a remarkable performance, one of the very best.
> 
> Regarding the cover, although I always like to see photos of HvK in his heyday, I bought this on the Galleria label in the 90s and really love the artwork that went with that series.
> 
> Interestingly, contrary to some people's erroneous narrative on Karajan, *he was actually modest*. As Richard Osborne observes, from the 1960s onwards Deutsche Grammophon received many directives from Karajan that his image should _not _appear on record sleeves and these directives were enforced. In 1973, the DG catalogue showed 33 Karajan album covers and only 5 had an image of Karajan on them. Only one had his name in bigger print than the composer's name (The Ring Cycle box).* I congratulate him on this - it irritates me when I see the conductor's name emblazoned on the album cover and I have to go looking for the composer and orchestra.
> 
> *Richard Osborne - Herbert von Karajan: A Life In Music p.64


I'm not sure whether it was modesty or just a disc;ike of photographs which he felt didn't show him at his best! He only allowed himself to be photographed from one side! He was very offended when a picture of him when elderly next to a blooming young Anne Sophie Mutter was labelled by some critic 'Death and the Maiden'


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 46
LP#2530 704









Mozart, Coronation Mass K317
Bruckner, Te Deum
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, contralto
Werner Krenn, tenor (Coronation)
Peter Schreier, tenor (Te Deum)
Jose van Dam, bass
Rudolf Scholz, organ*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 26-27 November 1975 (coronation); 26 September 1975 & 28 May 1976 (Te Deum)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 50:58
*
Review: *I have affirmed my general "meh" attitudes towards choral pieces several times. This collection won me over. I like pieces that use the chorus like a piece of the orchestra, creating big tones. These pieces achieve this. Not that the solo work isn't excellent, since it is. The BPO strings play the bejeezus out of the Mozart, while the organ really augments the Te Deum well. Sound quality is excellent. Still not my cup of tea, but undeniably well done. BTW, I love the photo on the cover, but it really irks me ever so slightly that it is off center compared to the DG label.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## Knorf

I mostly quite dislike Karajan's Mozart, but I admit I do like his Coronation Mass. 

And Karajan's Bruckner Te Deum is excellent, up there nearly with all of his Bruckner!


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## HenryPenfold

I don't have HvK's Mozart Coronation Mass, in fact the only recording of this work that I have is the Christopher Hogwood, which I adore. 

I agree with Knorf, the Te Deum is excellent. I'm equivocal about his Mozart symphonies, but I must be careful; his Haydn bothered me, then over the years I've come to love his Haydn performances .......


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## MatthewWeflen

When I first started my deep dive into CM, I initially disliked HVK/BPO's digital Haydn, but then suddenly after a year or so of listening, it "clicked" for me. I also have the Adam Fischer complete set, which is excellent, but the HVK/BPO is still the top for me among my collection.


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> When I first started my deep dive into CM, I initially disliked HVK/BPO's digital Haydn, but then suddenly after a year or so of listening, it "clicked" for me. I also have the Adam Fischer complete set, which is excellent, but the HVK/BPO is still the top for me among my collection.


Snap!
I passed on Karajan's digital (and EMI) Haydn years ago and Fischer was my go to. In the last 3 years or so I've been loving collecting the Giovanni Antonini's Il Giardino Armonica/Kammerorchester Basel '2032' cycle as each release comes out, but just recently I bought the Karajan Haydn symphonies box set and I'm loving' it!


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> I mostly quite dislike Karajan's Mozart, but I admit I do like his Coronation Mass.
> 
> And Karajan's Bruckner Te Deum is excellent, up there nearly with all of his Bruckner!


I've always loved his Great Mass in C minor with Hendricks. He was very good in choral works, except the Requiem for some reason.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 47
LP#2530 705









Mozart, Requiem K626
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, contralto
Werner Krenn, tenor 
Jose van Dam, bass
Rudolf Scholz, organ
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 27-28 September 1975 
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 46:13

*Review: *I've listened to the three DG HVK Requiems now. I think the 80s with the VPO has slightly better orchestral sound, while the 70s with BPO has better choral sound and solo work. As such, I think the 70s is the pick. It has terrific acoustics and a great balance between orchestra and chorus. The singing is crystal clear and comes through better than the 60s. It's the best for playing over speakers and is the equal of the 80s over headphones. The highlight of this rendition is the Rex Tremendae. The choral work is powerful but buttressed thoroughly by the equally powerful BPO strings. In hindsight, I probably overrated the 60s recording just a tad, though all three are in the same ballpark.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## bharbeke

The Mozart coronation Mass was terrific. The part of the Bruckner Te Deum I heard was great. I was using it as a sleep aid, so I don't hold it against the music that I fell asleep during it. I will make another go at it later.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 48
LP#2530 774









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6, op. 74 "Pathetique" 
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 5/7 May 1976
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 46:13

*Review: *I did an exhaustive comparison between all the Pathetiques in my collection: HVK/BPO 60s and 70s, HVK/VPO 80s, Pletnev/RNO, Petrenko/BPO. I'm relatively confident that for my tastes, this is the number one pick. I think this is the ideal material for Karajan, which may be why he recorded it so many times. His take is more... well, "more." The climaxes are more explosive, the adagios are more lamenting and expressive, the brass is brassier, the percussion more percussive. The other recordings offer different things, more clarity on this or that instrument group. But they don't put it together in quite as compelling a way. A particular highlight of this 5th is the third movement, with truly excellent rhythm, a more driving beat than the competitors, and terrific range from piano to forte. HVK hasn't done a bad Tchaikovsky 6th as far as I can tell, but this is the cream of the crop.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 49
LP#2530 828









Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 (original version)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 13-16 September 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 61:36

*Review:* This is the second of HVK/BPO's 2 Bruckner 9 accounts, and yet again the result is basically flawless if what you're after is stormy, thrilling, highly charged Bruckner. The 60s account is a bit more fleet, but I think the slight slowdown works to add drama here. The sound quality is a bit better than the 1960s account as well, with less hiss and greater detail in the mid to high region of the audio. The level of detail and dynamic range in the Scherzo is superb. The BPO play like titans. This is absolutely first rate, and I defy anyone to present an account that is an order of magnitude "greater" than. 
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## bharbeke

The 1970's Tchaikovsky Pathetique was right up my alley.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> This is absolutely first rate, and I defy anyone to present an account that is an order of magnitude "greater" than.


What other Bruckner 9ths have you compared this to?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

The big ones on YouTube. Jansons, Celibidache, Bernstein. They're all fine. Bernstein and Celi are a bit slow for me. Jansons is typically excellent with very clear textures.

With that said, that's not my primary focus here. I have neither the inclination nor the time to listen to 46 different hour long symphonies and render a verdict on how they are to be ordered 1-46.

You are welcome to suggest ones you think are worthy of comparison.


----------



## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn is just going to say Furtwängler, BPO 1944. Which, sure, is worth a listen. 

But please don't let him invalidate your opinion just because he prefers something else. Karajan's Bruckner 9 is mighty, and you needn't have heard a bajillion competitors for that to be obvious.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> Brahmsianhorn is just going to say Furtwängler, BPO 1944. Which, sure, is worth a listen.
> 
> But please don't let him invalidate your opinion just because he prefers something else. Karajan's Bruckner 9 is mighty, and you needn't have heard a bajillion competitors for that to be obvious.


Yeah. My term of art is "convincing." If this recording isn't convincing, nothing is.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> The big ones on YouTube. Jansons, Celibidache, Bernstein. They're all fine. Bernstein and Celi are a bit slow for me. Jansons is typically excellent with very clear textures.
> 
> With that said, that's not my primary focus here. I have neither the inclination nor the time to listen to 46 different hour long symphonies and render a verdict on how they are to be ordered 1-46.
> 
> You are welcome to suggest ones you think are worthy of comparison.


Bernstein was not a great Bruckner conductor. I could recommend Jochum, Tintner and Dohnanyi in this work but not preference to HvK. Problem is withFurtwangler that the recording is elderly and in theseworjs recording is important.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 48
> LP#2530 774
> 
> View attachment 141234
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6, op. 74 "Pathetique"
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 5/7 May 1976
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 46:13
> 
> *Review: *I did an exhaustive comparison between all the Pathetiques in my collection: HVK/BPO 60s and 70s, HVK/VPO 80s, Pletnev/RNO, Petrenko/BPO. I'm relatively confident that for my tastes, this is the number one pick. I think this is the ideal material for Karajan, which may be why he recorded it so many times. His take is more... well, "more." The climaxes are more explosive, the adagios are more lamenting and expressive, the brass is brassier, the percussion more percussive. The other recordings offer different things, more clarity on this or that instrument group. But they don't put it together in quite as compelling a way. A particular highlight of this 5th is the third movement, with truly excellent rhythm, a more driving beat than the competitors, and terrific range from piano to forte. HVK hasn't done a bad Tchaikovsky 6th as far as I can tell, but this is the cream of the crop.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


HvK also made anorther great recording on EMI which was the BBCrecommended version. Different but not superior.


----------



## Knorf

DavidA said:


> Bernstein was not a great Bruckner conductor.


You're not wrong, and Bernstein really did very little Bruckner, but I actually rather like that VPO Ninth. There's also a Sixth with the NYPO that was included in their big Bernstein live recordings box, and it's actually pretty great!

But it is true there are a decent number of excellent Bruckner 9s to find. My short list would include Klemperer, Schuricht, Karajan for sure, Blomstedt, and Skrowaczewski, with an honorable mention to Harnoncourt/VPO for a very fine performance and for including his wonderful lecture on the fourth movement. There's more than a couple threads on TC about Bruckner 9 if one wished to jump down that rabbit hole.

Also, there's an astonishingly great Bruckner 9 with Boulez and the Berliner Philharmoniker that has intermittently been available to watch on their digital concert hall. Highly recommended listening if you can get access to it!


----------



## Phil loves classical

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1960's Disc 33
> LP#139 002 (39 002)*
> 
> View attachment 136504
> 
> *
> Mozart, Symphonies 29 (K201) and 33 (K319)
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Victoria-Konzertsaal, St. Moritz, 19-23 August 1965
> Executive Producer: Otto Gerdes
> Recording Producer: Otto Ernst Wohlert
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns
> Total time: 41:11
> 
> Review: This is certainly better than the Bach, but it suffers from some of the same issues that the other St. Moritz recordings do. It's rather hissy and not very detailed. This gauzy quality makes the slow movements feel pokey and sleepy. With that said, they're fine enough renditions for what they are. They're not overdone instrumentally and they retain a Mozartean lilt to them.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos: *


I have fond memories of this recording, the first Classical commercial recording I've ever heard which my bro bought, and that got me into Classical. Still have the tape. Great atmosphere and flow. The 29th is quite similar to Britten which is probably my favourite version.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> Brahmsianhorn is just going to say Furtwängler, BPO 1944. Which, sure, is worth a listen.
> 
> But please don't let him invalidate your opinion just because he prefers something else. Karajan's Bruckner 9 is mighty, and you needn't have heard a bajillion competitors for that to be obvious.


Get over yourself. I could care less which recording he prefers. But to make such grandiose statements about the Karajan without having even heard other acclaimed versions such as Furtwangler, Giulini, or Walter is absurd. I'm not even denying Karajan is among the best, but this thread is an exercise in myopia when you make statements like that without any meaningful comparison. It's the very definition of fanboyism.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> The big ones on YouTube. Jansons, Celibidache, Bernstein. They're all fine. Bernstein and Celi are a bit slow for me. Jansons is typically excellent with very clear textures.
> 
> *With that said, that's not my primary focus here.* I have neither the inclination nor the time to listen to 46 different hour long symphonies and render a verdict on how they are to be ordered 1-46.


Then why make grandiose comparative statements? You are being hypocritical here. You can't say no one compares when you haven't even heard the competition. That's just silly.

It sounds like what you are trying to say is that this thread represents a safe space for Karajan fans where only adulation and no criticism is allowed. I wonder why such a thing is needed.



MatthewWeflen said:


> You are welcome to suggest ones you think are worthy of comparison.


Giulini, Furtwangler, Von Hausegger, Walter, Celibidache, Abbado, Barenboim, Schuricht, Van Beinum, Jochum...

Among modern recordings, the general consensus is Giulini/VPO. Which you're free to disagree with...provided you actually listen to it.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

But "no one compares" is not what I said, is it.

My precise words were *"I defy anyone to present an account that is an order of magnitude "greater" than."* Having listened to four or five alternative Bruckner 9s from highly accomplished orchestras and conductors, none has been an order of magnitude greater than this one. I can't _imagine _any that would be, so convincing is this performance. Different? Certainly. More illuminating as to this or that instrument group? Sure. But *greater *than? Nah.

If there is one, please present it. I would be interested in investigating the claim.

How about this: you hereby win the argument with whomever it is you're quoting. Congratulations.

And if you don't enjoy my thread, kindly $%&# off to one which suits your tastes better. Why are you punishing yourself by wallowing in my rank "fanboyism?" You're clearly not going to disabuse me of it. One might think you enjoyed playing the part of the dweller under the bridge who pops up to make trouble.

Next, are you going to go to my Star Trek blog and castigate me for liking it too much and for not comparing it to The Terminator? It would be just about as useful.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Why are you so defensive? I’m not trying to win any argument. That’s the irony. I haven’t said whether your taste is good, bad, right, or wrong. I’m just questioning how you can be so certain of the Karajan recordings greatness without having heard others. I personally think it’s better to try different conductors before subscribing to such adulation.

It’s amazing how simply asking the question “How many Bruckner 9ths have you heard?” leads to such vitriol.


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## MatthewWeflen

Whew. I was worried that my opinions wouldn't be Brahmsplained to me.


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## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> Whew. I was worried that my opinions wouldn't be Brahmsplained to me.


Without his gatekeeping, who knows what sorts of riff raff might express opinions. :lol:


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> Without his gatekeeping, who knows what sorts of riff raff might express opinions. :lol:


I have now learned that being labelled a grandiose, myopic, hypocritical fanboy is no reason to get "defensive."

This will really help me in my life outside this forum.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Discs 50-51
LP#2707 101









Bruckner, Symphony No. 5 (original version)
Wagner, Siegfried Idyll
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 6-11 December 1976
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 100:58

*Review: *Bruckner's 5th is not my favorite of his symphonies. I find the melodies less catchy than, say, those of the first, or the later 7-9 peak. It's undeniably well played here, and the acoustics of the Philharmonie have been utilized to great effect in the recording, which has a good balance between instrument groups despite the brassiness of the composition. The Siegfried Idyll also leaves me a little lukewarm. There are some pretty textures, but it's all a bit gauzy and formless for my tastes. I'd call the Bruckner an 8 and the Wagner a 7.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Video: *


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Then why make grandiose comparative statements? You are being hypocritical here. You can't say no one compares when you haven't even heard the competition. That's just silly.
> 
> It sounds like what you are trying to say is that this thread represents a safe space for Karajan fans where only adulation and no criticism is allowed. I wonder why such a thing is needed.
> 
> Giulini, Furtwangler, Von Hausegger, Walter, Celibidache, Abbado, Barenboim, Schuricht, Van Beinum, Jochum...
> 
> Among modern recordings, the general consensus is Giulini/VPO. Which you're free to disagree with...provided you actually listen to it.


Among modern recordings the general consensus is Karajan orWand but as I have never seen the virtues of Wand I go for Karajan. It is not a safe space but it is somewhere where HvK recordings are shown and reviewed


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Why are you so defensive? I'm not trying to win any argument. That's the irony. I haven't said whether your taste is good, bad, right, or wrong. I'm just questioning how you can be so certain of the Karajan recordings greatness without having heard others. I personally think it's better to try different conductors before subscribing to such adulation.
> 
> It's amazing how simply asking the question "How many Bruckner 9ths have you heard?" leads to such vitriol.


Whether he has had one or 10,000 what does it matter to you? It is none of your business


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Among modern recordings the general consensus is Karajan orWand but as I have never seen the virtues of Wand I go for Karajan.


The modern consensus on No. 8 is Karajan and also to a lesser extent No. 7, but in No. 9 there is no question Giulini/VPO is the most acclaimed modern version. But I have already been defied to make this claim by someone who can't even bother to hear the Giulini.



DavidA said:


> It is not a safe space but it is somewhere where HvK recordings are shown and reviewed


You mean slobbered over with no room for disagreement.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> But I have already been defied to make this claim by someone who can't even bother to hear the Giulini.


I have tried my very best to be civil towards you. But I'm sick of your loathsome, cretinous shtick.

This is the sort of troll garbage people keep referring to when they criticize your tone. At no point did I say I wouldn't listen to the Giulini Bruckner 9. I asked you several times for the recommendation. This is emblematic of your entire approach to this forum. You grossly misrepresent someone's statements or opinions, denigrate the resulting straw man caricature in the harshest terms, and then proceed to wail, crocodile tears and all, about how "sensitive" or "vitriolic" people are when they take umbrage.

You really need to find another outlet for this kind of negativity and delusion. What do you gain from it? Does it feel good to irritate others with repetitive drivel and by denigrating their opinions? What is wrong with you?

Please, stop commenting on my posts. It's clear you don't find them valuable. That's fine, of course, to each their own. But I find your incessant replies even less so. Go pull the wings off of butterflies, or skin neighborhood cats, or something else more suited to your temperament.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The modern consensus on No. 8 is Karajan and also to a lesser extent No. 7, but in No. 9 there is no question Giulini/VPO is the most acclaimed modern version. But I have already been defied to make this claim by someone who can't even bother to hear the Giulini.
> 
> You mean slobbered over with no room for disagreement.


Oh for goodness sake why do you always have to argue with everyone in this unpleasant manner. It's just not wanted on this thread. The problem is with you people try and be polite and you just don't take the hint. If you want a different sort of thread start when yourself


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> I have tried my very best to be civil towards you. But I'm sick of your loathsome, cretinous shtick.
> 
> This is the sort of troll garbage people keep referring to when they criticize your tone. At no point did I say I wouldn't listen to the Giulini Bruckner 9. I asked you several times for the recommendation. This is emblematic of your entire approach to this forum. You grossly misrepresent someone's statements or opinions, denigrate the resulting straw man caricature in the harshest terms, and then proceed to wail about how "sensitive" or "vitriolic" people are when they take umbrage.
> 
> You really need to find another outlet for this kind of negativity and delusion. What do you gain from it? Does it feel good to irritate others with repetitive drivel and by denigrating their opinions? What is wrong with you?
> 
> Please, stop commenting on my posts. It's clear you don't find them valuable. That's fine, of course, to each their own. But I find your incessant replies even less so. Go pull the wings off of butterflies, or skin neighborhood cats, or something else more suited to your temperament.


I'm afraid he is one of these guys he just won't take the hint. He likes to control things


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> I have tried my very best to be civil towards you. But I'm sick of your loathsome, cretinous shtick.
> 
> This is the sort of troll garbage people keep referring to when they criticize your tone. At no point did I say I wouldn't listen to the Giulini Bruckner 9. I asked you several times for the recommendation. This is emblematic of your entire approach to this forum. You grossly misrepresent someone's statements or opinions, denigrate the resulting straw man caricature in the harshest terms, and then proceed to wail, crocodile tears and all, about how "sensitive" or "vitriolic" people are when they take umbrage.
> 
> You really need to find another outlet for this kind of negativity and delusion. What do you gain from it? Does it feel good to irritate others with repetitive drivel and by denigrating their opinions? What is wrong with you?
> 
> Please, stop commenting on my posts. It's clear you don't find them valuable. That's fine, of course, to each their own. But I find your incessant replies even less so. Go pull the wings off of butterflies, or skin neighborhood cats, or something else more suited to your temperament.


Great! Let me know what you think of the Giulini.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> I'm afraid he is one of these guys he just won't take the hint. He likes to control things


Has it ever occurred to you that I am also a fan of Karajan? Has it ever occurred to you that I peruse this thread for that very reason? Do you even notice that I just complimented Karajan's choral recordings a few days ago, and that I have complimented many of the recordings in this thread?

The issue - for me - occurs when people insinuate that Karajan is the only conductor worth considering. And so I express my opinion, and people get defensive. And then I reply that this appears to be myopic adulation rather than open exploration of music. And hence instead of enjoying a real, honest discussion of Karajan, I am in a bubble world where only "Karajan uber alles" is allowed.

If people criticize my favorite conductor, I don't get defensive. I'm simply curious as to their opinion. I asked Granate just yesterday why he doesn't like the Furtwängler 1944 Bruckner 8th. I was just curious to know, since he obviously listens to a lot of music. Dissenting opinions are nothing to fear. Why live in a bubble?

The problem between me and Knorf is that Knorf assumes an agenda behind everything. He doesn't understand that I am honestly curious and could care less whether people agree or disagree. I'm not married to my opinion, and neither should other people be. With Knorf everything seems to be about posturing and getting "your" way. I could care less about that.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that I am also a fan of Karajan? Has it ever occurred to you that I peruse this thread for that very reason? Do you even notice that I just complimented Karajan's choral recordings a few days ago, and that I have complimented many of the recordings in this thread?


My issue with you is not with your opinion of Karajan or his recordings. I could _not _care less. It is with how you treat the other members of the forum. If you require recent examples, posts 411 and 420 provide adequate summaries.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> My issue with you is not with your opinion of Karajan or his recordings. I could _not _care less. It is with how you treat the other members of the forum. If you require recent examples, posts 411 and 420 provide adequate summaries.


I'm sorry you are offended. Just please keep in mind that statements like "I defy anyone to name a better recording" when you haven't even listened to most all of the alternatives is just inviting criticism.

Knorf got on my case for once saying "You haven't heard the Brahms Violin Concerto if you haven't heard Krebbers/Haitink." Lord Knorf decided that my statement was too assertive and arrogant, even though (1) It was milder than yours, and (2) I own 163 recordings of said work and thus was speaking from an actual frame of reference.

God knows I've had my fair share of criticism. I'm sorry mine bothered you so much.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'm sorry you are offended. Just please keep in mind that statements like "I defy anyone to name a better recording" when you haven't even listened to most all of the alternatives is just inviting criticism.
> 
> Knorf got on my case for once saying "You haven't heard the Brahms Violin Concerto if you haven't heard Krebbers/Haitink." Lord Knorf decided that my statement was too assertive and arrogant, even though (1) It was milder than yours, and (2) I own 163 recordings of said work and thus was speaking from an actual frame of reference.
> 
> God knows I've had my fair share of criticism. I'm sorry mine bothered you so much.


I don't care what you think of me. I care about you wasting my time and clogging this thread with pointless flotsam. I use this thread to look at my past reviews for comparison. Others use this thread to look at recordings they were unaware of. When one has to sift through two and a half pages of repetitive crap to get to the reviews, utility is diminished.

If you wanted to disagree or offer an alternative, that would be fine. But you couch everything in personal invective. Here would be an example of a positive contribution:

"I didn't personally like this recording. I thought it was too [insert adjective here] and that the [insert instrument group here] was not [insert descriptor here] enough.

Here is an alternative: [insert YouTube link here]. Notice how the [insert difference here].

THE END."

See how there are no descriptions of the person making the original post? You know, words such as "grandiose, myopic, hypocritical, or fanboy?" This is what would be known as "disagreeing without attacking."

Also, when you quote someone, quote their actual words, not your uncharitable interpretation of them.

As long as you keep insulting people and misrepresenting their statements, you're going to keep running into this. Surely this is not the first time someone has criticized your typical mode of expression. Maybe it's not everyone else. Maybe it's you.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I asked a short, simple question. It didn’t have to turn into all this. Knorf was the one stirring the pot by extrapolating on my question and turning it into an argument. He was the one bringing up Furtwängler, for example, not me.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I asked a short, simple question. It didn't have to turn into all this. Knorf was the one stirring the pot by extrapolating on my question and turning it into an argument. He was the one bringing up Furtwängler, for example, not me.


This is not an isolated incident in my experience. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> This is not an isolated incident in my experience. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.


????

What the heck is that even supposed to mean, Mr. Innocent?


----------



## Merl

And back to the thread. Don't want this turning into 100 pages of nonsense. Keep up the reviews, Matt. . I don't always agree with you but we don't always, do we?


----------



## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I asked a short, simple question. It didn't have to turn into all this. Knorf was the one stirring the pot by extrapolating on my question and turning it into an argument. He was the one bringing up Furtwängler, for example, not me.


You need to realize that you're not fooling anyone. Anyone can go back and see what was written perfectly easily. One thing is for sure: I have never insulted you the way you have me, with nonsense such as "Lord Knorf" and egregiously distorting what I actually wrote. You are a champion at accusing others of what you yourself are guilty, and I am far from the first to say so.

In this thread, you did _exactly_ what I thought you were doing: you trolled MatthewWeflen for whether he had heard one of the few recordings that are your own personal favorites, in order to castigate him and invalidate his opinion and this, his thread, when it turned out he hadn't. You then mischaracterized _again_ what Matthew has written about his intentions for this thread. It is behavior I can only condemn as immature at best, bullying at worst, but, regardless of that, unworthy of this forum.

In short, you were trying to act as a gatekeeper for whether someone's opinion is valid, based only on your preferences. You don't get to do that here.

MatthewWeflen made this thread, and he can make of it _whatever he wishes_ as long as it falls within TC rules. If you don't like it, that's just too bad.

If you wish, I'll send you a cookie. If you want respect, you'll have to earn it, with thoughtful and respectful posts. Right now, you've presented the opposite, over and over, and have put your reputation here into a substantial deficit.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> In this thread, you did _exactly_ what I thought you were doing: you trolled MatthewWeflen for whether he had heard one of the few recordings that are your own personal favorites, in order to castigate him and invalidate his opinion and this, his thread, when it turned out he hadn't.
> 
> In short, you were trying to act as a gatekeeper for whether someone's opinion is valid, based only on your preferences. You don't get to do that here.


That is absolutely false!!!! I said NOTHING about whether his opinion was valid or not. And I did not list my personal favorites. I listed the recordings that are acclaimed universally. Go to any thread and any list and you'll see the same recordings listed. My point was he should listen to more versions. Nothing more, nothing less. YOU were the one who put words in my mouth and thus put me on the defensive. YOU are the bully here! You don't get to project YOUR opinion on what I am saying and intending. Only I get to do that!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 52
LP#2530 883









Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 4, op. 36
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 9-10 December 1976
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 42:25
*
Review:* This is a stupendous account of Tchaikovsky's 4th. It sounds as though it was written for this orchestra and this conductor. The opening blast of brass tells you what you're in for from the get-go - spine tingling, hair-raising Tchaikovsky, in fabulous sound. The Philharmonie acoustics surpass those of the JCK here, and the miking is excellent. Contrabasses anchor the proceedings in low rumbles, percussion bangs out clearly and resoundingly. The strings in the 2nd movement Andantino are almost unspeakably beautiful. The Scherzo finds every pluck recorded with precision. It really sounds as good as modern digital. HVK recorded this one many times with BPO and at the last, digitally with VPO. I think this is the best of the bunch. It has better sound, especially in percussion, than the 60s (though listeners who dislike spot miking would do better with the 60s) and is more thrilling than the 80s, which is slightly sedate in comparison. With that said, all three are superb. It's obvious why they kept going back to this well. An unalloyed triumph.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## Phil loves classical

^ Not a fan of Karajan's Tchaikovsky No.s 4 and 5. I own the recording based on some positive reviews, but is one of those I haven't warmed up to. I like metronomic in Brahms' symphonies but not in Tchaikovsky. So I prefer Szell and Mravinsky. Also I just can't stand that one -note crescendo in the brass at 11:46!


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## MatthewWeflen

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ Not a fan of Karajan's Tchaikovsky No.s 4 and 5. I own the recording based on some positive reviews, but is one of those I haven't warmed up to. I like metronomic in Brahms' symphonies but not in Tchaikovsky. So I prefer Szell and Mravinsky. Also I just can't stand that one -note crescendo in the brass at 11:46!


That's an interesting point about "metronomic." Karajan certainly seems more rigid with his tempo choices and sticking to them throughout a movement. I have tried the more "flexible" conductors many times on many pieces, and it drives me to distraction. I find a steady tempo very mooring, especially in challenging repertoire.

The other Tchaikovsky cycle in my collection is the DG Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra. I wanted to have a more "idiomatic" approach. Frankly, I don't detect a whale of difference besides overall intensity/volume (a slight edge to the BPO, but not an order of magnitude different). I'll have to take a look at Szell and Mavrinsky. Are there particular movements or sections in which the variable tempii really work for you?


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## Phil loves classical

MatthewWeflen said:


> That's an interesting point about "metronomic." Karajan certainly seems more rigid with his tempo choices and sticking to them throughout a movement. I have tried the more "flexible" conductors many times on many pieces, and it drives me to distraction. I find a steady tempo very mooring, especially in challenging repertoire.
> 
> The other Tchaikovsky cycle in my collection is the DG Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra. I wanted to have a more "idiomatic" approach. Frankly, I don't detect a whale of difference besides overall intensity/volume (a slight edge to the BPO, but not an order of magnitude different). I'll have to take a look at Szell and Mavrinsky. Are there particular movements or sections in which the variable tempii really work for you?


The first movements of both 4 and 5 in particular, where they have these contrasts between the contemplative and more violent. I remember the Mvravinsky better for both. They are quite volatile. I use to find them a bit too much, but kind of got addicted to that. I used to like Jansons the most for both, which are less hectic, but I recall the final movement of the 4th goes really fast!


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## Brahmsianhorn

Szell and Mravinsky are certainly the most acclaimed versions of Tchai 4. My favorite is Mengelberg, which definitely won't appeal to you if you don't like flexible tempi!


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## DavidA

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ Not a fan of Karajan's Tchaikovsky No.s 4 and 5. I own the recording based on some positive reviews, but is one of those I haven't warmed up to. I like metronomic in Brahms' symphonies but not in Tchaikovsky. So I prefer Szell and Mravinsky. Also I just can't stand that one -note crescendo in the brass at 11:46!


Funny I would say both Szell and Mravinsky (both of whose recordings I have) are as ' metronomic' asKarajan here. Incidentally Szell wouldn't allow the release of his Tchaikovsky four during his life. It was actually released after his death by Decca


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## annaw

It’s been a long time since I listened to Karajan’s Tchaikovsky but, in general, I’m not sure I would describe him as ‘metronomic’ in the sense that he just beats time always the same way. He had a great rhythmic understanding and chose his tempi with generally wonderful taste. He managed to keep the same tempi, if he wanted to, but his precision there is rather a part of his appeal - the fact how well he managed to keep his desired tempi makes him sometimes really stand out. Of course it fits some composers better than others, but the orchestral pulsations he is able to bring out in his Beethoven for example are wonderful and probably partly achieved exactly thanks to this same rhytmic sense he had. I think it’s always interesting to hear conductors adapt to different repertoire while being limited to their own skills.


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## MatthewWeflen

annaw said:


> It's been a long time since I listened to Karajan's Tchaikovsky but, in general, I'm not sure I would describe him as 'metronomic' in the sense that he just beats time always the same way. He had a great rhythmic understanding and chose his tempi with generally wonderful taste. He managed to keep the same tempi, if he wanted to, but his precision there is rather a part of his appeal - the fact how well he managed to keep his desired tempi makes him sometimes really stand out. Of course it fits some composers better than others, but the orchestral pulsations he is able to bring out in his Beethoven for example are wonderful and probably partly achieved exactly thanks to this same rhytmic sense he had. I think it's always interesting to hear conductors adapt to different repertoire while being limited to their own skills.


"Orchestral pulsations" is an interesting phrase. I'm coming up on the 70s Beethoven cycle soon. Are there any particularly "pulsating" passages you cant think of? The first movement of the 2nd stands out to me as a candidate.


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## annaw

MatthewWeflen said:


> "Orchestral pulsations" is an interesting phrase. I'm coming up on the 70s Beethoven cycle soon. Are there any particularly "pulsating" passages you cant think of? The first movement of the 2nd stands out to me as a candidate.


Ha, it's difficult to explain. I wasn't able to find a better word :lol:. What I meant are sort of underlying pulsations which I think Karajan brings out very nicely during some passages. I think that you can hear that pretty much in every symphony but I'll see whether I can come up with anything more specific.


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## Merl

annaw said:


> It's been a long time since I listened to Karajan's Tchaikovsky but, in general, I'm not sure I would describe him as 'metronomic' in the sense that he just beats time always the same way. He had a great rhythmic understanding and chose his tempi with generally wonderful taste. He managed to keep the same tempi, if he wanted to, but his precision there is rather a part of his appeal - the fact how well he managed to keep his desired tempi makes him sometimes really stand out. Of course it fits some composers better than others, but the orchestral pulsations he is able to bring out in his Beethoven for example are wonderful and probably partly achieved exactly thanks to this same rhytmic sense he had. I think it's always interesting to hear conductors adapt to different repertoire while being limited to their own skills.


Whether you liked him or not Karajan had an incredible understanding of pulse. There was no ebbing and flowing of tempi and wild fluctuations. He knew how to lock in that momentum. In his best recordings you are carried along with it and when the BPO fully locked into his groove they sounded incredible. There were very few who could do the same and certainly not as consistently.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I fail to see how ebbing and flowing of tempo and understanding of pulse are mutually exclusive. I’d think just the opposite. The more metronomic you are, the less your understanding of pulse.


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## BachIsBest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I fail to see how ebbing and flowing of tempo and understanding of pulse are mutually exclusive. I'd think just the opposite. The more metronomic you are, the less your understanding of pulse.


I don't see how you'd think the opposite? Insofar as I understand what is being discussed, a conductor whom metronomically beats the tempo and achieves a pleasing rhythmic sensibility should be understood as having a good 'pulse'.

On the other hand, I certainly see nothing contradicting the possibility of more fluctuating tempos having a good pulse provided they are done sensibly and aren't disruptive to the rhythm of the piece.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Whether you liked him or not Karajan had an incredible understanding of pulse. There was no ebbing and flowing of tempi and wild fluctuations. He knew how to lock in that momentum. In his best recordings you are carried along with it and when the BPO fully locked into his groove they sounded incredible. There were very few who could do the same and certainly not as consistently.


I'm in total agreement with you! IMO this just makes very many of his recordings fascinating to listen to. He wasn't just boringly beating time but he used that to create very wonderful orchestral effects which certainly were part of his distinctive style.


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## annaw

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I fail to see how ebbing and flowing of tempo and understanding of pulse are mutually exclusive. I'd think just the opposite. The more metronomic you are, the less your understanding of pulse.


Whether it's due to a good rhythmic sensibility or not, Karajan certainly had a great understanding of pulse. I cannot see a contradiction between 'metronomic' tempi and pulse though. Isn't pulsating _de facto_ rhythmically repetitive and regular? I think it is.

Sorry for a double post .


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## Eclectic Al

annaw said:


> I'm in total agreement with you! IMO this just makes very many of his recordings fascinating to listen to. He wasn't just boringly beating time but he used that to create very wonderful orchestral effects which certainly were part of his distinctive style.


For me, a lot of music benefits from a "less is more" rule. That is, you want some variation in tempo, in legato/staccato, in ppp-fff, but if you go too far too often with that then you detract from the impact. Impact from rubato is strongest as a subtle deviation from a steady beat. If time is all over the place all the time with frequent accelerations and decelerations then that just becomes mannered and irritating. Similarly if it is overdone, as in "this is an exciting bit, so I'll speed up a lot" or "this is a really sad bit, so I'll drag it out lots". Tedious.

I also find that it is the more outwardly emotional pieces which can benefit most from reserve of that sort. If a piece is already out there when it comes to emotional effects then it does not need to have those emphasised, rather the reverse.

Of course this is just my personal taste, as I am an introverted, contained sort of a guy.


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## Phil loves classical

annaw said:


> It's been a long time since I listened to Karajan's Tchaikovsky but, in general, I'm not sure I would describe him as 'metronomic' in the sense that he just beats time always the same way. He had a great rhythmic understanding and chose his tempi with generally wonderful taste. He managed to keep the same tempi, if he wanted to, but his precision there is rather a part of his appeal - the fact how well he managed to keep his desired tempi makes him sometimes really stand out. Of course it fits some composers better than others, but the orchestral pulsations he is able to bring out in his Beethoven for example are wonderful and probably partly achieved exactly thanks to this same rhytmic sense he had. I think it's always interesting to hear conductors adapt to different repertoire while being limited to their own skills.


I think I may have misused the word metronomic for Karajan. I should mean that Karajan had less sudden changes and smaller variances in tempo than Mravinsky.

Depending on how you define it, I see metronomic and pulse as the same thing. Flow is what I see as dictating the changes in tempo, pulse.


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## annaw

Phil loves classical said:


> I think I may have misused the word metronomic for Karajan. I should mean that Karajan had less sudden changes and smaller variances in tempo than Mravinsky.
> 
> Depending on how you define it, I see metronomic and pulse as the same thing. Flow is what I see as dictating the changes in tempo, pulse.


Or I might have unknowingly misused it - I definitely don't exclude that possibility. Nevertheless, now I understand what you meant . Thanks for an elaboration!


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## MatthewWeflen

Phil loves classical said:


> I think I may have misused the word metronomic for Karajan. I should mean that Karajan had less sudden changes and smaller variances in tempo than Mravinsky.
> 
> Depending on how you define it, I see metronomic and pulse as the same thing. Flow is what I see as dictating the changes in tempo, pulse.


I took it as meaning, non-pejoratively, fewer changes in tempo within a given movement. I agree with that assessment, and I think it's a feature, not a bug, so to speak.

I am also in total agreement with Eclectic Al. Changes in tempo are fine if they are indicated in the text. But doing it frequently for interpretive reasons is distracting to me, personally. Karajan strikes me as rather conservative on that level. He did a lot more work on tone and color than on fiddling with tempo bar by bar.


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## Knorf

I mean, none of us need to hear classical music played by MIDI for its metronomic correctness of tempo. However, at some point, tempo can be just too wayward for almost anyone. Furtwängler for me crosses the line often into being too wayward.

But I've not felt that Karajan was overly strict. Really, not ever; it's just not a criticism I have of his music making. His tempos usually have a fairly consistent pulse but also a supple touch that I usually find very effective. Certainly authoritarian strictness in tempo is not really a Karajan trait, but he was never going to pull a Furtwängler or Bernstein, either, for better or worse.


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## BachIsBest

I find in his later recordings Karajan became slightly more willing to apply changes in tempo (although he still retained a somewhat strict view on tempo; he didn't all the sudden change into Furtwängler). This seems to be a common trend amongst conductors in my experience.


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## JAS

MatthewWeflen said:


> I took it as meaning, non-pejoratively, fewer changes in tempo within a given movement. I agree with that assessment, and I think it's a feature, not a bug, so to speak.
> 
> I am also in total agreement with Eclectic Al. Changes in tempo are fine if they are indicated in the text. But doing it frequently for interpretive reasons is distracting to me, personally. Karajan strikes me as rather conservative on that level. He did a lot more work on tone and color than on fiddling with tempo bar by bar.


Tempo changes can be proper interpretation, or they can be gimmick. I fear that the gimmick factor tends to come in for the umteenth recording of a well known work, but if one has to play with a work hard in terms of doing something new purely to justify the recording, perhaps the recording isn't justified.


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## Brahmsianhorn

BachIsBest said:


> I find in his later recordings Karajan became slightly more willing to apply changes in tempo (although he still retained a somewhat strict view on tempo; he didn't all the sudden change into Furtwängler). This seems to be a common trend amongst conductors in my experience.


This is true. I find a lot of his 60s recordings a bit too straight laced compared to his 70s versions. For example the Beethoven 9th and The Rite of Spring.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 53
LP#2530 884









Stravinsky, Le Sacre du printemps
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 3-4 December 1975, 10 December 1976, 30 January 1977
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 34:42

*Review: *HVK/BPO's second and final Rite of Spring for DG is the better of the two. The difference is really just sonic as far as I can tell. Tempii and run time are nearly identical. The second movement especially, but all the way throughout, just sounds as if a veil has been lifted by comparison (to compare the second movements, go to 



 for the 1960s... I don't know if YouTube will illustrate the difference over PC speakers, but it's night and day listening to the CD-quality FLAC rips over good headphones). Percussion is superb and more biting. Again, this is not my preferred repertoire, but I was very involved in this, and this recording did an even better job of selling me on it than the 1960s. As an aside, the cover is almost unspeakably boring.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Video:*


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## Phil loves classical

The big difference for me from the 1964 to 1977 version is in the precision and phrasing either in playing or interpretation. Check out from 2:30 to 3:00 in both versions. The flutes tuplet swirls are more focussed in the 1977, and the whole together is more precise, while the 1964 version is looser (not sure if it's Karajan or the BPO's 'fault'). Also the bassoon around 2:50 is way more eloquent in phrasing in the 1977.


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## bharbeke

Tchaikovsky's 4th from the 1970's is fantastic. It is bombastic and in your face when it needs to be, and he integrates the oddball third movement with all the pizzicato into the whole very well.


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## larold

The best Tchaikovsky (also bombastic) I heard from Karajan was the ballet suite to the Sleeping Beauty from this collection:


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## MatthewWeflen

larold said:


> The best Tchaikovsky (also bombastic) I heard from Karajan was the ballet suite to the Sleeping Beauty from this collection:
> 
> View attachment 141644


That recording was the 1971 from this album:









It is indeed terrific.


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## DavidA

Phil loves classical said:


> The big difference for me from the 1964 to 1977 version is in the precision and phrasing either in playing or interpretation. Check out from 2:30 to 3:00 in both versions. The flutes tuplet swirls are more focussed in the 1977, and the whole together is more precise, while the 1964 version is looser (not sure if it's Karajan or the BPO's 'fault'). Also the bassoon around 2:50 is way more eloquent in phrasing in the 1977.


Stravinsky was quite scathing about Karajan's first version and Karajan took his criticism on board for the remake.


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## Phil loves classical

DavidA said:


> Stravinsky was quite scathing about Karajan's first version and Karajan took his criticism on board for the remake.


Stravinsky called his first version "a pet savage rather than a real one". It was Action rituelle des ancetres (from around 26:30 to 29:30) he called "tempo di hoochie-coochie" and "duller than Disney's dying dinosaurs". That part probably has the biggest change. In the first version, it was too tame. But other than that, I feel Karajan stuck to his guns in overall interpretation, while making it more incisive.


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## Knorf

I admit I've always assumed that _Le Sacre_ would never be something Karajan would do well, so I've never bothered with it. Maybe that should change. I do like his Honegger, so maybe that's a good sign.

If nothing else, Talk Classical has been great for convincing me to revisit recordings, or give a first listen to something I avoided or simply missed.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 54
LP#2531 048









Bach, Magnificat BWV 243
Stravinsky, Symphony of Psalms (revised version)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Chor der Deutschen Oper Berlin
Soloists (Bach): Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, contralto
Peter Schreier, tenor
Benjamin Luxon, bass*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 6 December 1977, 25/27 January 1978, 19/21 February 1979 (Bach); 20-21 February 1975 (Stravinsky)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Cord Garben, Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 52:58
*
Review:* This album presents a rather odd coupling - Bach and Stravinsky. Both are choral pieces, and oddly enough, I found the Stravinsky more engaging of the two. I liked the orchestral element of the Magnificat, and found the harpsichord and organ well represented in the mix, but the singing was much more soloist heavy, which isn't really my cup of tea. I would say the highlight of the Bach for me was the Aria: 'Et Misericordia.' There were stretches here and there that were very pleasing. The Stravinsky, on the other hand, used the full chorus more for texture, which I enjoy, and thus engaged me more as a complete piece. All in all, not bad by any stretch, but not something I envision myself pulling out a lot to listen to.

*Overall Rating: 7/10*
*
Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 55
LP#2531 049









Mozart, Violin Concerto No. 3 K216; Violin Concerto No. 5 K219
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 13-19 February 1978
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 58:24
*
Review: *This might be my very favorite Mutter album. Is that bad? It's her first, recorded at age 15. I also like her 4 Seasons with HVK/VPO and some of her other output from around the same time. Her modern stuff.... nah. Too weepy and overwrought. I can hardly listen to her latest release with John Williams. Anyway, this is a really nice rendition that is definitely not overwrought in the solo part. The orchestral accompaniment is also excellent. Sound quality is very clear and detailed in the higher register, and has very pleasing depth in bass.
*

Overall Rating: 9/10

Video: *


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## Brahmsianhorn

I still have that album. My favorite Mutter too. 

I'm the same way with Menuhin. IMO he never did anything better than his teenage recordings of Bach and Elgar.


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## Eclectic Al

So if I struggle with Mozart, and have listened to Grumiaux/Davis/LSO (plus Schneiderhan/Jochum in number 5) with little effect, would Mutter persuade me to listen again?


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## Brahmsianhorn

As often is the case, I have to go back to older recordings to find performances that "sell" me on the music. For the last three Mozart concertos, I think the Goldberg/Susskind versions are wonderful:


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## DavidA

Eclectic Al said:


> So if I struggle with Mozart, and have listened to Grumiaux/Davis/LSO (plus Schneiderhan/Jochum in number 5) with little effect, would Mutter persuade me to listen again?


Mutter / Karajan offered something very special here imo. The violin concertos aren't the apex of Mozart's output though


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## MatthewWeflen

I think this Karajan/Mutter/BPO is very good, but perhaps a bit better is this from LSO/Nikolai Znaider:






It's a modern recording with great sound. It's brisker than the old Karajan/Mutter but it doesn't go full Squeaky/HIP in an unpleasant way.

For overtures, I really like the Hans Vonk/Staatskapelle Dresden:






For Symphonies I'm still in the process of digging into them. I have 2 complete cycles (Trevor Pinnock and Jaap ter Linden) and the DG Karajan outings. I am kind of partial to the HVK/BPO because I like the fuller sound. I have a feeling that Fischer's cycle is probably great and will suit me better than my other two, because his Haydn and Beethoven were both superlative and retain that fuller sound.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I’m curious what people who hate the Bernstein/VPO Beethoven think of the same collaboration in Mozart. That’s my favorite set after the old Beecham.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 56
LP#2531 055









Respighi, Fontane di Roma, Pini di Roma
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 5-6 December 1977, 26 January & 13/26 February 1978
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Cord Garben, Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 38:51
*
Review:* This recording is notable for its whisper soft _piano _passages. The overall orchestral playing is high quality, and the recording is top notch from a technical perspective. There is some exceptional bass response in the catacombs passage as well as other spots. I was initially off-put by the inclusion of bird sounds in the Pines of Rome, but apparently this was Respighi's intention. Overall, my impression of the pieces is a rather sedate one, and this isn't a recording I return to very often.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 57
LP#2531 101









Beethoven, Symphony No. 1 op. 21, Symphony No. 2 op. 36
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 23-24 January 1975, 19 October 1976, 29/31 January 1977, 8-9 March 1977
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 53:36

*Review: *I will preface this review by saying that this has been my go-to cycle for 2 years or so now. It is certainly "imprinted" for me. I will try to compare it objectively, though, with the rest of HVK's output, as well as the many other cycles I own. In terms of tempo, this is middle of the road. If there were a spectrum between Chailly's (in my opinion) hurry-sick cycle with Gewandhaus and Bernstein's... interesting experiment with the VPO, this is in the middle, slightly behind, say, Gardiner, Hogwood and Toscanini, but slightly faster than Fischer or Immerseel. It is HVK/BPO's fastest studio cycle, however.

What marks the 1977 cycle as special for me is the achievement in orchestral sound. I have a few spots I look to in symphonies to see if they're "doing it" for me. One such spot is the end of 1.1, in which the brass comes in to emphasize the point (This occurs around 7:15 in the appended Sym. 1 video). The brass in this recording is more forward in the mix, which really puts an emotional crescendo on the movement and pleases me greatly. The 60s recording almost lacks this. The 80s has it to a slightly lesser degree. Gardiner, Chailly, Hogwood, Fischer, Immerseel, Toscanini, and Bernstein's cycles are all anemic here. Another "doing it" spot for me is in 2.1, in the attacks on the strings beginning at 3:28 in the appended Sym. 2 video. Now, here, my other competitor cycles do a good job and the qualitative distance isn't quite so great.

All in all, this is a brisk (but not too brisk) set of 1&2 that really excels in acoustics and textures. The sound is full and lush without being slow or mushy (Bernstein/VPO has excellent "full" sound as well, but is just too slow for my liking). Is it spot-miked? Sure. Is that distracting? Personally, I don't think it is, and I don't think they go too far here. I think "naturalistic" two-mic recordings can tend to diminish certain parts of a performance in a way that doesn't match my own live experiences. For non-HIP recordings of 1&2 in modern sound, I think these are an exciting, all-round high quality entry that surpass HVK's own competitors, and also reveal more detail, at least in my own personal check-points, than most or all of the other cycles I own. Highly recommended. For me, it's a 10. I can imagine spots that could theoretically be played better, and I can always imagine better sound quality, but I can't _find _them in the alternatives I own.

I also like the goofy "number" covers.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


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## erudite

MatthewWeflen said:


> Mozart, Violin Concerto No. 3 K216; Violin Concerto No. 5 K219
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin


I have always liked the cover photo of the album.

She looks so confident. A great future lay ahead…

Though she has really plumbed the depths with the John Williams stuff. Ah well, follow the money I guess.


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## bharbeke

Mozart VC No. 5 was great to hear, and it kicked off a little Mozart listening streak for me.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 58
LP#2531 103









Beethoven, Symphony No. 3 op. 55 "Eroica"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 7 May 1976, 30-31 January 1977, 8 March 1977
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 48:13

*Review:* As hinted at by the cover, this is a fiery rendition of the 3rd, filled with blazingly intense music making. The sound quality is again absolutely superlative, sounding as good or better than modern digital. From the first blasts of the first movements, you know you're in for a blow-your-hair-back Beethoven experience. I think if any group is the star of this rendition, it's the French Horns. God, they sound terrific. But the spot miking approach also highlights great attacks on strings, and beautifully modulated, aggressive tympani.

My go-to checkpoint for this symphony is the intense passage of the Marcia Funebre beginning at 21:17 in the appended video, climaxing emotionally at 22:47. This is the recording that best captures that nearly apocalyptic emotional tone for me, from the almost unspeakably intense introduction of the string part to the blistering crash of the tympani. Comparatively, the 60s and 80s tympani climaxes are muted, though both recordings come close in the pitched intensity of strings and horns. Surveying the rest of my LVB cycles, only Bernstein/VPO matches the sonority of the playing, but the tympani is still a little underdone for me, and the whole movement is too slow. Toscanini comes closest to both the strings/horns and tympani, and at the tempo which suits me, but the recording quality is vastly worse. Chailly/Gewandhaus is a lovely recording, but too fast, and the tympani still leaves me wanting. My HIPster collections all sound a bit squeaky and anemic (in my opinion, the Eroica is not well suited to this approach), with Gardiner/ORR and Fischer/DCO coming off the best.

This long exploration of both HVK's output and the competition is meant to highlight what I think is HVK/BPO's strength - they take a middle of the road tempo and instead focus on the sound world being created, finding the tones and areas of emphasis that wring maximum emotion from the movement.

The Erioca was one of HVK's strong suits, and I think this is the strongest of the DG accounts. It's smashing.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 58
> LP#2531 103
> 
> View attachment 141867
> 
> 
> Beethoven, Symphony No. 3 op. 55 "Eroica"
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 7 May 1976, 30-31 January 1977, 8 March 1977
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 48:13
> 
> *Review:* As hinted at by the cover, this is a fiery rendition of the 3rd, filled with blazingly intense music making. The sound quality is again absolutely superlative, sounding as good or better than modern digital. From the first blasts of the first movements, you know you're in for a blow-your-hair-back Beethoven experience. I think if any group is the star of this rendition, it's the French Horns. God, they sound terrific. But the spot miking approach also highlights great attacks on strings, and beautifully modulated, aggressive tympani.
> 
> My go-to checkpoint for this symphony is the intense passage of the Marcia Funebre beginning at 21:17 in the appended video, climaxing emotionally at 22:47. This is the recording that best captures that nearly apocalyptic emotional tone for me, from the almost unspeakably intense introduction of the string part to the blistering crash of the tympani. Comparatively, the 60s and 80s tympani climaxes are muted, though both recordings come close in the pitched intensity of strings and horns. Surveying the rest of my LVB cycles, only Bernstein/VPO matches the sonority of the playing, but the tympani is still a little underdone for me, and the whole movement is too slow. Toscanini comes closest to both the strings/horns and tympani, and at the tempo which suits me, but the recording quality is vastly worse. Chailly/Gewandhaus is a lovely recording, but too fast, and the tympani still leaves me wanting. My HIPster collections all sound a bit squeaky and anemic (in my opinion, the Eroica is not well suited to this approach), with Gardiner/ORR and Fischer/DCO coming off the best.
> 
> This long exploration of both HVK's output and the competition is meant to highlight what I think is HVK/BPO's strength - they take a middle of the road tempo and instead focus on the sound world being created, finding the tones and areas of emphasis that wring maximum emotion from the movement.
> 
> The Erioca was one of HVK's strong suits, and I think this is the strongest of the DG accounts. It's smashing.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Video:*


This to me is the best Eroica of Karajan's legacy except perhaps 83 which matches it. Tremendous performance and the best OnDisc all round


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I am certainly a fan of Karajan’s Eroica, and his 70’s Beethoven, along with all his 70’s stuff in general, I see as one of the peaks of his career. 60’s - too mechanical, 80’s - too shallow, 70’s - just right. I would recommend this recording to someone new to the symphony without hesitation.


----------



## Merl

When I get that 1966 Live Karajan set I ought to do a side by side comparison of the 6 HvK cycles. 
Nearly everyone who likes them has a favourite set amongst the studio cycles. 63 was always king for me, in the past, but listening to the 77 again recently it's just as impressive. Littkw between them, tbh.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Merl said:


> When I get that 1966 Live Karajan set I ought to do a side by side comparison of the 6 HvK cycles.
> Nearly everyone who likes them has a favourite set amongst the studio cycles. 63 was always king for me, in the past, but listening to the 77 again recently it's just as impressive. Littkw between them, tbh.


Which six are you referring to?

I know there is Philharmonia and the 3 DGs. There is the video cycle from the 60s, the live 1977 Tokyo recording, and I believe an 80s Unitel video cycle (with VPO?).


----------



## annaw

MatthewWeflen said:


> Which six are you referring to?
> 
> I know there is Philharmonia and the 3 DGs. There is the video cycle from the 60s, the live 1977 Tokyo recording, and I believe an 80s Unitel video cycle (with VPO?).


There's a second live recording from BPO's tour in Japan which is probably the same 1966 live cycle Merl also mentioned. 1966 Japan, 1977 Japan, Philharmonia, and the 3 DGs should be the six non-video recordings, if I'm not mistaken.


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## BachIsBest

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I am certainly a fan of Karajan's Eroica, and his 70's Beethoven, along with all his 70's stuff in general, I see as one of the peaks of his career. 60's - too mechanical, 80's - too shallow, 70's - just right. I would recommend this recording to someone new to the symphony without hesitation.


I don't disagree about the 1977 Eroica, but I'm not sure about those categories of Karajan's career. It is true (and I have already posted to the effect) that he became more flexible with tempos throughout his career but surely rigid tempos do not always equate to mechanical playing. And I can't agree with the era in his career that saw him produce the live Mahler 9 and Bruckner 8 symphonies with the VPO being one marked by "shallowness". Other than the Beethoven cycle (which Karajan didn't really want to do anyway), could you provide a number of examples of this supposed "shallowness" in his 80's recordings (i.e., enough that one might believe it true as a generality)?


----------



## DavidA

BachIsBest said:


> I don't disagree about the 1977 Eroica, but I'm not sure about those categories of Karajan's career. It is true (and I have already posted to the effect) that he became more flexible with tempos throughout his career but surely rigid tempos do not always equate to mechanical playing. And I can't agree with the era in his career that saw him produce the live Mahler 9 and Bruckner 8 symphonies with the VPO being one marked by "shallowness". Other than the Beethoven cycle (*which Karajan didn't really want to do anyway)*, could you provide a number of examples of this supposed "shallowness" in his 80's recordings (i.e., enough that one might believe it true as a generality)?


Karajan didn't want to do it? It was his idea I thought. To combine it with Telemodial.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I don’t think he became shallow in the 80s, but I do think he lost a bit of his edge. The 70s are Karajan at his most concentrated, producing recordings like Tod und Verklarung with a beautiful sense of line. This was his creative zenith IMO. The 60s recordings sound more conventional, not as exciting. In the 70s he seemed more confident in just letting the his sound world do its thing.


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## BachIsBest

DavidA said:


> Karajan didn't want to do it? It was his idea I thought. To combine it with Telemodial.


I tried to find where I read that and couldn't. You may very well be right. Do you have a source?


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## DavidA

BachIsBest said:


> I tried to find where I read that and couldn't. You may very well be right. Do you have a source?


Just everything I read of the time and also in his biography by Osborne. I don't think it was the artistic design of the drive it rather technological one of the new digital media. The problem was at the time there were difficulties with the BPO and really he didn't add anything to what he had recorded already. The 82 cycle is not bad but it's just not adding very much


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 59
LP#2531 104-105









Beethoven, Symphony No. 4 op. 60; Symphony No. 5, op. 67
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 23 September 1976 & 27-28 January 1977 (4th); 20 October 1976, 31 January & 8 March 1977 (5th)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 62:35
*
Review:* This recording of the 4th and 5th shares all of the same strengths as the first 3 symphonies - it is brisk, aggressive, and driven. Percussion is well miked and strong (but not overpowering). The BPO's playing is powerful, especially in brass and strings.

Which brings me to where this falls down just a tad for me. The "wall of sound" effect occludes things in some of my "go to" spots, namely the 4th movement of the 4thsymphony, and the 2nd movement of the 5th symphony. In the 5th, the passages I'm referring to occur at 8:24 and 10:15. The strings underlying the brass are just buried a bit too much for me. The brass sound incredible, don't get me wrong, I just wish things were mixed a bit differently. By way of comparison, the 2nd movement of the Kleiber 5th are much more clearly audible. It is this sort of sonic crowding that diminishes these ever so slightly for me.

All of this is only a minor blemish on an otherwise stellar recording. My favorite 5th vacillates between HVK's 63 and 77, with Kleiber coming in third. In the rest of my collection, I would say Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra comes closest, and Toscanini would be present in the mix if it weren't for the lamentably early recording.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## Knorf

I think Beethoven 4 might be an example where a performance from the 1963 cycle is clearly superior to the 1977.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> I think Beethoven 4 might be an example where a performance from the 1963 cycle is clearly superior to the 1977.


I like them both, but the 1963 is lean, athletic, and exciting. My top choice for that symphony among stereo recordings.


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## DavidA

Knorf said:


> I think Beethoven 4 might be an example where a performance from the 1963 cycle is clearly superior to the 1977.


Agree with that. With the 5th it is about evens


----------



## Phil loves classical

Anyone hear Munch's Beethoven's 5th? The lack of repeat in the first movement took a bit of time to adjust, but it became my favourite version. Very spontaneous. Klieber's is great, but I had memorized every gesture, so it lost its impact over time.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

Phil loves classical said:


> Anyone hear Munch's Beethoven's 5th? The lack of repeat in the first movement took a bit of time to adjust, but it became my favourite version. Very spontaneous. Klieber's is great, but I had memorized every gesture, so it lost its impact over time.


Munch is a great conductor, but repeats he does not like as a general rule. Nearly spoils for me his otherwise superb _Harold in Italy_. Repeats? I want 'em as a general rule...


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 60
LP#2531 106-107









Beethoven, Symphony No. 6 op. 68 "Pastoral"; Symphony No. 7, op. 92
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 19 October 1976 (6th); 22 October 1976, 28 January & 9 March 1977 (7th)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 72:14

*Review: *This one is another split decision for me, with the 6th being wonderful and the 7th lacking just a bit, and for similar reasons to the last record.

First, the 6th. It has lush, beautiful playing by the BPO that really does transport me in a tone poem sort of way. This recording is one I return to as a "happy place" recording frequently, and it rarely fails to lift my spirits. My go-to sections are the storm and the happy feelings after the storm. The storm is pitched and intense, with excellent percussion. The Shepherd's song after the storm reaches heights of beauty in the string playing that are not matched within the rest of my collection.

The 7th has a great intensity that I enjoy quite a bit, and a nice tempo throughout, but there is a sonic flabbiness to the mix that just makes things feel a little thick and heavy. It's a fine account, but there are versions in my collection that I tend to prefer - Chailly's being one, but also Gardiner and Fischer. Karajan's 60s rendition also has clearer textures.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10* (average of 10 and 8)

*Video:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 60
> LP#2531 106-107
> 
> View attachment 142201
> 
> 
> Beethoven, Symphony No. 6 op. 68 "Pastoral"; Symphony No. 7, op. 92
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 19 October 1976 (6th); 22 October 1976, 28 January & 9 March 1977 (7th)
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 72:14
> 
> *Review: *This one is another split decision for me, with the 6th being wonderful and the 7th lacking just a bit, and for similar reasons to the last record.
> 
> First, the 6th. It has lush, beautiful playing by the BPO that really does transport me in a tone poem sort of way. This recording is one I return to as a "happy place" recording frequently, and it rarely fails to lift my spirits. My go-to sections are the storm and the happy feelings after the storm. The storm is pitched and intense, with excellent percussion. The Shepherd's song after the storm reaches heights of beauty in the string playing that are not matched within the rest of my collection.
> 
> The 7th has a great intensity that I enjoy quite a bit, and a nice tempo throughout, but there is a sonic flabbiness to the mix that just makes things feel a little thick and heavy. It's a fine account, but there are versions in my collection that I tend to prefer - Chailly's being one, but also Gardiner and Fischer. Karajan's 60s rendition also has clearer textures.
> *
> Overall Rating: 9/10* (average of 10 and 8)
> 
> *Video:*


The 6th here is a very fine performance. I prefer Kleiber seventh as he devides violins


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## Guest

There might be some lesser performances, most of H.v.K.'s interpretations are still incomparable anyway.

That's why some petty notorious politicians and sly assemblies defame him.


Please correct my approximate English


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 60
> LP#2531 106-107
> 
> View attachment 142201
> 
> 
> Beethoven, Symphony No. 6 op. 68 "Pastoral"; Symphony No. 7, op. 92
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 19 October 1976 (6th); 22 October 1976, 28 January & 9 March 1977 (7th)
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 72:14
> 
> *Review: *This one is another split decision for me, with the 6th being wonderful and the 7th lacking just a bit, and for similar reasons to the last record.
> 
> First, the 6th. It has lush, beautiful playing by the BPO that really does transport me in a tone poem sort of way. This recording is one I return to as a "happy place" recording frequently, and it rarely fails to lift my spirits. My go-to sections are the storm and the happy feelings after the storm. The storm is pitched and intense, with excellent percussion. The Shepherd's song after the storm reaches heights of beauty in the string playing that are not matched within the rest of my collection.
> 
> The 7th has a great intensity that I enjoy quite a bit, and a nice tempo throughout, but there is a sonic flabbiness to the mix that just makes things feel a little thick and heavy. It's a fine account, but there are versions in my collection that I tend to prefer - Chailly's being one, but also Gardiner and Fischer. Karajan's 60s rendition also has clearer textures.
> *
> Overall Rating: 9/10* (average of 10 and 8)
> 
> *Video:*


This was my introduction to 6&7. These days I've a marginal preference for the 80s digital 6 (more of which later, I presume ;-)). Still one of my favourite 7s.


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## MatthewWeflen

Roland Paingaud said:


> There might be some lesser performances, most of H.v.K.'s interpretations are still incomparable anyway.
> 
> That's why some petty notorious politicians and sly assemblies defame him.
> 
> Please correct my approximate English


Welcome!

You won't find me defaming HVK. I have more of his music than anyone else's. And his 70s cycle is my favorite Beethoven cycle, flaws and all. I am just trying to recognize which performances in particular are better or worse than the others.


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## Guest

@MatthewWeflen

All right. Thank you.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Roland Paingaud said:


> There might be some lesser performances, most of H.v.K.'s interpretations are still incomparable anyway.
> 
> That's why some petty notorious politicians and sly assemblies defame him.
> 
> Please correct my approximate English


Only 8 posts and already a polarizing member of the HvK fanclub. Aren't there at least any entry restrictions?


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## MatthewWeflen

Are you putting yourself forward as gatekeeper? Is such a gatekeeper really necessary? Are we here to comment on music, or on forum members we dislike?

I'd like to think that an internet forum has ample room for all sorts of opinions. If you dislike Karajan, there are thousands of threads on this forum that should be more appealing to you. If you dislike another forum member, you should endeavor to keep it to yourself.


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## HenryPenfold

I'm on the move at the moment and not in the UK, but I've found a few hours here and there to look in on the forum, especially this wonderful thread. The thing is, I could resist no more and I've gone and bought the complete 60s, 70s & 80s DG Karajan recordings on FLAC download (with booklets and at a very keen price). Squillions of duplications of course, but I'm over the moon!

I'll not download anything on the move, but will wait until I return to London and will dive in then. Meanwhile, I'll continue to follow this thread closely.


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## NLAdriaan

MatthewWeflen said:


> Are you putting yourself forward as gatekeeper? Is such a gatekeeper really necessary? Are we here to comment on music, or on forum members we dislike?
> 
> I'd like to think that an internet forum has ample room for all sorts of opinions. If you dislike Karajan, there are thousands of threads on this forum that should be more appealing to you. If you dislike another forum member, *you should endeavor to keep it to yourself*.


You might say this to your new member.


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> Are you putting yourself forward as gatekeeper? Is such a gatekeeper really necessary? Are we here to comment on music, or on forum members we dislike?
> 
> I'd like to think that an internet forum has ample room for all sorts of opinions. If you dislike Karajan, there are thousands of threads on this forum that should be more appealing to you. If you dislike another forum member, you should endeavor to keep it to yourself.


Matthew, can I please make a suggestion? Ignore, and certainly do not reply to this member. He had a nibble in post #69 and is at it again. Don't rise to the bait. May I also make the request to other people interested in this thread to do the same?

Thank you in advance, HenryPenfold.

Edit: No-one should feel any need to write a reply to my post, my questions are rhetorical.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> This was my introduction to 6&7. These days I've a marginal preference for the 80s digital 6 (more of which later, I presume ;-)).......


I hadn't played much HvK Beethoven in a long while, apart from the odd performance ('77 9th,' 85 3rd, '63 7th) but over the past few weeks I've been re-sampling tiny bits of each cycle to consider whether I should dedicate one of my LVB symphony cycle threads to the 3 studio BPO cycles (I've already reviewed the 50s Philharmonia set) because I'm now hearing things I didn't hear in the past and feel I need to re-evaluate. I think there's been a lot of stuff written about all these sets but not much unbiased listening. This is particularly true of the much-maligned 80's cycle. Is this a good idea or not? I spoke to Knorf about this a while back so it's been on my mind quite some time.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I hadn't played much HvK Beethoven in a long while, apart from the odd performance ('77 9th,' 85 3rd, '63 7th) but over the past few weeks I've been re-sampling tiny bits of each cycle to consider whether *I should dedicate one of my LVB symphony cycle threads to the 3 studio BPO cycles* (I've already reviewed the 50s Philharmonia set) because I'm now hearing things I didn't hear in the past and feel I need to re-evaluate. I think there's been a lot of stuff written about all these sets but not much unbiased listening. This is particularly true of the much-maligned 80's cycle. Is this a good idea or not? I spoke to Knorf about this a while back so it's been on my mind quite some time.


Yes, please do! Your reviews of these (or pretty much any LvB cycle recording) would be great.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I hadn't played much HvK Beethoven in a long while, apart from the odd performance ('77 9th,' 85 3rd, '63 7th) but over the past few weeks I've been re-sampling tiny bits of each cycle to consider whether I should dedicate one of my LVB symphony cycle threads to the 3 studio BPO cycles (I've already reviewed the 50s Philharmonia set) as I'm now hearing thing I didn't hear in the past and feel I need to re-evaluate. I think there's been a lot of stuff written about all these sets but not much unbiased listening. This is particularly true of the much-maligned 80's cycle. Is this a good idea or not?


I think it's a great idea! And your point about the 80s cycle resonates with me. The negative contemporaneous attitude (which is largely extant) caused me not to hear these performances for what they are. Slowly over time (a very long time, now!) I have come to appreciate and enjoy them very much.


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## MatthewWeflen

The 80s cycle was actually my first extended exposure to LVB's symphonies. I certainly enjoyed them well enough to subsequently acquire a dozen other cycles.

I would call them "stately," similar to the 80s Brahms, which is also good. If it were a person's only cycle, they'd be doing fine.

The only recording in the 80s box that absolutely need to be replaced is the Planets. Otherwise, it really is a fine box, with the Haydn, Bruckner, and Strauss being particular highlights.

I don't think HvK alone is sufficient for a complete, robust classical collection. There is too much repertoire outside his purview, and some of it needs to be replaced by better versions (Bach in particular). But it's a hell of a start. It's the way I started, and I have never felt ill served.


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> The 80s cycle was actually my first extended exposure to LVB's symphonies. I certainly enjoyed them well enough to subsequently acquire a dozen other cycles.
> 
> I would call them "stately," similar to the 80s Brahms, which is also good. If it were a person's only cycle, they'd be doing fine.
> 
> The only recording in the 80s box that absolutely need to be replaced is the Planets. Otherwise, it really is a fine box, with the Haydn, Bruckner, and Strauss being particular highlights.
> 
> I don't think HvK alone is sufficient for a complete, robust classical collection. There is too much repertoire outside his purview, and some of it needs to be replaced by better versions (Bach in particular). But it's a hell of a start. It's the way I started, and I have never felt ill served.


I must say that I struggled with The Planets. The Karajan Gold is an improvement sound-wise, but there are much, much better performances out there.

Initially I could not stand the Bach. Not even the B minor. But these days, having the trusted JEG on hand, I'm happy to luxuriate in HvK's heavily upholstered nose in the air performances when the mood takes me.

Fortunately, we do not even have to contemplate a collection solely of HvK, but if I were on a desert island and these boxes were all I had, I would not be unhappy.


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## MatthewWeflen

I agree on the desert island scenario. If you were on a desert island for a day with the three DG boxes and an internet connection and a hard drive, the supplements I think you would need are:

-A Bach set that includes the Brandenburgs
-Schubert and Brahms string quartets, quintets, sextets
-A Beethoven piano concerto set
-Copland orchestral works
-a complete Sibelius cycle
-a Shosty cycle
-a Nielsen cycle 
-a Schubert cycle
-a Haydn cycle
-a Mozart cycle
-a Mahler cycle
-a Ring cycle
-an alternative Four Seasons (HVK/Mutter is fine and far better than the DG with Schwalbe)


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## DavidA

Merl said:


> I hadn't played much HvK Beethoven in a long while, apart from the odd performance ('77 9th,' 85 3rd, '63 7th) but over the past few weeks I've been re-sampling tiny bits of each cycle to consider whether I should dedicate one of my LVB symphony cycle threads to the 3 studio BPO cycles (I've already reviewed the 50s Philharmonia set) because I'm now hearing things I didn't hear in the past and feel I need to re-evaluate. I think there's been a lot of stuff written about all these sets but not much unbiased listening.* This is particularly true of the much-maligned 80's cycle. Is this a good idea or not? * I spoke to Knorf about this a while back so it's been on my mind quite some time.


I have the 80s set. I think one reason it was 'much maligned' was the original sound which isn't that good. However, if you listen in the Gold remastering there is a dramatic improvement. The other reason was that HvK didn't add too much to what he had done before and (apart from a simply superb Eroica) most of the performances weren't quite up to the standard of the previous sets. They are certainly not bad though and anyone starting off with them could do a lot worse.


----------



## DavidA

I have got a lot of pleasure out of the Karajan symphony box from the 70s. There are other ways of doing these works but these are very good indeed.


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## HenryPenfold

DavidA said:


> I have the 80s set. I think one reason it was 'much maligned' was the original sound which isn't that good. However, if you listen in the Gold remastering there is a dramatic improvement. The other reason was that HvK didn't add too much to what he had done before and (apart from a simply superb Eroica) most of the performances weren't quite up to the standard of the previous sets. They are certainly not bad though and anyone starting off with them could do a lot worse.


I think you pretty much sum it up correctly.

Odd that HvK's 80s LvB cycle cannot be judged in its own right but must be assessed relative to his earlier cycles. I don't think the 'added value' argument is the real reason. I think it's more to do with tall poppies and wider, similar ideas ....


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> I agree on the desert island scenario. If you were on a desert island for a day with the three DG boxes and an internet connection and a hard drive, the supplements I think you would need are:
> 
> -A Bach set that includes the Brandenburgs
> -Schubert and Brahms string quartets, quintets, sextets
> -A Beethoven piano concerto set
> -Copland orchestral works
> -a Shosty cycle
> -a Schubert cycle
> -a Haydn cycle
> -a Mozart cycle
> -a Mahler cycle
> -an alternative Four Seasons (HVK/Mutter is fine and far better than the DG with Schwalbe)


Yes, I'd need a full Mahler (&DSCH). But other than that I'd just need some Birtwistle, Boulez, Messiaen, Simpson, Varese, Vivaldi, Lutoslawski, Tippett, a stack of Britten and Ligeti and I'm there!!!!!


----------



## DavidA

HenryPenfold said:


> I think you pretty much sum it up correctly.
> 
> Odd that HvK's 80s LvB cycle cannot be judged in its own right but must be assessed relative to his earlier cycles. I don't think the 'added value' argument is the real reason. I think it's more to do with tall poppies and wider, similar ideas ....


Of course Karajan was a victim of his own success in that people were always comparing his good with his best. Of course some of hi9s recordings were better than others but that is the same for every conductor. But if we take the works as a whole there is a standard of excellence which is quite breathtaking. Of course that in itself brought criticism from people who are allergic to success.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 61-62
LP#2707-109









Beethoven, Symphony No. 8 op. 93; Symphony No. 9, op. 125 "Choral"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Agnes Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, contralto
Peter Schreier, tenor
Jose van Dam, bass
Wiener Singverein, chorus*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 22-23 September & 6 December 1976 (8th); 21 October 1976, 27 January 1977 (9th)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:29:22

Review: The 8th is pretty uniformly delightful. Initially, I thought the first movement had some of the same sonic flabbiness as the 7th before it, but things cleared up, especially in the lilting and fun Allegretto Scherzando. Things ended on an up note as well. This isn't the most "rocking" 8th in my collection (that would probably be Chailly/Gewandhaus) but it's really pretty excellent overall.

The 9th begins powerfully. The first movement has all the terror and storminess it needs to set the stage. No movements of the 9th here suffer from sonic crowding. The recording quality is sterling throughout. The percussion in the 2nd movement is thrilling in a way that the 60s and 80s versions lack. Great spot miking brings the tympani forward, but not _too _ far forward. The third and fourth movements are where HVK/BPO bring all the powers they've cultivated over the past 18 years to bear. The strings created layers, sheaves of sound that are positively ecstatic, and I mean that technically. The playing makes me feel like I am not in my body any more, that I'm being lifted on pulsating waves of sound.

The choral movement beings with those terrific drums. The soloists are powerful and precise, with excellent elocution. You could learn German by listening to this. When the chorus hits, it's a bit more muted that the soloists, but still very clear overall. The BPO modulates well and never overpowers soloists or chorus. I don't think Karajan "hated the chorus," as I've seen rather risibly suggested elsewhere.

The overall impression of the ninth is brisk and never boring. It's such a protean, all encompassing work, but I never get worn out by this recording.

Despite any small criticisms or flaws, I think this is a 10 overall. Both the 8th and the 9th display a supreme degree of technical excellence, and they both have passages that are transcendently good (mentioned above).

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

As far as the cycle goes, I would say that the 3rd, 6th, and 9th are the standouts. 1-2 are pretty thoroughly great. 4-5 are quite good, with some sonic minor flaws in one movement or another. 7 falls a tad flat for me sonically in several movements, though it has an excellent 2nd movement. It's a terrific cycle that is marked by "just right" tempo (not too fast, not too slow) that doesn't fluctuate irritatingly. Overall sonics are very exciting, with a few spots of "overdoing it."

*Video:*


----------



## bharbeke

I listened to No. 6 last night and No. 1 previously. They sounded nice with no noticeable flaws, but they did not blow me away, either. Still, I will try 8 and 9, as those are among my favorite Beethoven symphonies.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

The chorus is underwhelming in that 9th, particularly in the all important statement of the Ode to Joy theme, which is also made less exciting by Karajan’s recessed tempo, as if he’s trying to keep a lid on things. The orchestral sections are great though. 

For an overall stereo choice, I prefer Fricsay/BPO and Bernstein/VPO to Karajan.


----------



## annaw

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The chorus is underwhelming in that 9th, particularly in the all important statement of the Ode to Joy theme, which is also made less exciting by Karajan's recessed tempo, as if he's trying to keep a lid on things. The orchestral sections are great though.
> 
> For an overall stereo choice, I prefer Fricsay/BPO and Bernstein/VPO to Karajan.


I'm not even going to ask about your overall preference :lol: - I can say that Furtwängler's quick tempo during the beginning of the Ode to Joy section _is_ effective but I wouldn't say that Karajan is any less effective just because he sticks to his usual tempo. Karajan's handling of pianissimo passages and the way he uses dynamics works very well and contrastingly, giving the first Ode to Joy climax (where the melody fully takes over) power while still sounding very natural. I think it wouldn't have fit the overall style of Karajan's LvB 9th if he had let the brass play as loud as they could or if he had suddenly played that passage faster. When it comes to chorus, I don't have a particular problem with it, although I think it can sound a bit far away (but I guess that has more to do with the recording not Karajan). He has great soloists, though, and that's a thumbs up from me.

I agree about Fricsay - a stunning recording and a wonderful last movement and chorus!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

annaw said:


> I'm not even going to ask about your overall preference :lol: - I can say that Furtwängler's quick tempo during the beginning of the Ode to Joy section _is_ effective but I wouldn't say that Karajan is any less effective just because he sticks to his usual tempo. Karajan's handling of pianissimo passages and the way he uses dynamics works very well and contrastingly, giving the first Ode to Joy climax (where the melody fully takes over) power while still sounding very natural. I think it wouldn't have fit the overall style of Karajan's LvB 9th if he had let the brass play as loud as they could or if he had suddenly played that passage faster. When it comes to chorus, I don't have a particular problem with it although I think it can sound a bit far away (but I guess that has more to do with the recording not Karajan). He has great soloists though and that's a thumbs up from me.
> 
> I agree with you about Fricsay - a stunning recording and a wonderful last movement with a great chorus!


They were in the Philharmonie, so the chorus was right behind the orchestra. If I had been mixing the album, I personally would have brought the chorus level up just a tad. I agree it's slightly on the quieter side. But it's not like it's inaudible compared to the orchestra. It's in balance. I don't have to turn the volume up when I listen.


----------



## annaw

MatthewWeflen said:


> They were in the Philharmonie, so the chorus was right behind the orchestra. If I had been mixing the album, I personally would have brought the chrous up just a tad. But* it's not like it's inaudible compared to the orchestra*. It's in balance.


Definitely not. I really like Karajan's 9th, so, I have no serious complaints. I think the recording technology etc plays its part as well when it comes to capturing the chorus.


----------



## DavidA

To me Karajan's 1977 9th is one of the very great performances. The slow movement which lies at the heart of the work is really amazing here, the best in any of his recordings.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> To me Karajan's 1977 9th is one of the very great performances. The slow movement which lies at the heart of the work is really amazing here, the best in any of his recordings.


Yeah, that's the real standout for me, the 3rd and 4th movements (not that the 1st and 2nd are slouches). Those slow movements are just out of this world heavenly. The apotheosis of the HVK/BPO sound.


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> They were in the Philharmonie, so the chorus was right behind the orchestra. If I had been mixing the album, I personally would have brought the chorus level up just a tad. I agree it's slightly on the quieter side. But it's not like it's inaudible compared to the orchestra. It's in balance. I don't have to turn the volume up when I listen.


I got the SACD version a few years ago, and I swear it sounds as if they increased the volume for the Ode to Joy chorus


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## MatthewWeflen

Comparing the 192k/24b stereo Blu-Ray mix to the CD mix (albeit the one in the 70s box) reveals them to be at the same volume to my ears.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 63
LP#2707-102









Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 (Haas edition)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 14-15 April 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:38

*Review: *By this point I have probably established my feelings on Karajan's Bruckner in general, and on his complete DG cycle in particular. Each release is marked by stellar sound and by monumental readings. This Bruckner 7 begins with far reaching, cosmic strings, rising like nebular clouds over a swathe of shimmering stars. It's like this is the music HVK built the BPO to play. The 2nd movement adagio is played with wrenching pathos. The brass in the scherzo could reduce mountains to rubble. The finale seals the deal with tight, bracing playing.

The only question here is whether the VPO 7th from the 80s (HVK's last recording before his death) is better. I probably can't divorce my reaction to that from my knowledge of its circumstances. They're both valuable accounts with stellar playing. The BPO is probably more "knock your socks off," while the VPO dials things back a tad to display more emotional sensitivity (the adagio is a bit less over the top). From a technical standpoint, they're equal recordings.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 63
> LP#2707-102
> 
> View attachment 142418
> 
> 
> Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 (Haas edition)
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 14-15 April 1975
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 64:38
> 
> *Review: *By this point I have probably established my feelings on Karajan's Bruckner in general, and on his complete DG cycle in particular. Each release is marked by stellar sound and by monumental readings. This Bruckner 7 begins with far reaching, cosmic strings, rising like nebular clouds over a swathe of shimmering stars. It's like this is the music HVK built the BPO to play. The 2nd movement adagio is played with wrenching pathos. The brass in the scherzo could reduce mountains to rubble. The finale seals the deal with tight, bracing playing.
> 
> The only question here is whether the VPO 7th from the 80s (HVK's last recording before his death) is better. I probably can't divorce my reaction to that from my knowledge of its circumstances. They're both valuable accounts with stellar playing. The BPO is probably more "knock your socks off," while the VPO dials things back a tad to display more emotional sensitivity (the adagio is a bit less over the top). From a technical standpoint, they're equal recordings.
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Video:*


There are of course to more superb recordings, one with the BPO on EMI and the VPO. All essential


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 64
LP#2531-131









Brahms, Symphony No. 1, op. 68
Tragic Overture, op. 81
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 23-27 January & 19 February 1978
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 58:49

*Review:* This album was my first ever "serious" classical purchase, around 20 years ago. I had been watching Star Trek TNG and was struck by one of the concerts in Ten Forward. So I went looking for some Brahms, and the 70s symphony cycle was one of the first and least expensive options on Amazon. I played it quite often and really came to know the music.

Since my more recent deep dive, I have come to view the 70s cycle as the least of the three DG cycles. The sound is a bit too bloated in spots, where the 60s takes a leaner approach, and the 80s preserves the ringing brass but keeps it in better digital balance with higher detail levels. The reading here is very similar to the 60s, whereas the 80s is a bit slower and more precise on the entries of instrumental parts.

Anyway, after listening to this one through, it is not shabby by any means. It's simply bettered slightly by the aforementioned alternatives. The playing is very rhythmically driven, with every orchestral section going full tilt. Quite exciting - just a bit much at times.

The Tragic Overture is really successful. Brisk and exciting, with better sound balance than the symphony.

The covers of this set are bad, boring, bland. Karajan actually did not have his face on all that many DG covers, but ones like this leave a sour taste.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Video: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> There are of course to more superb recordings, one with the BPO on EMI and the VPO. All essential


Yeah, I don't have the EMI. Some day, perhaps. But I've still got a box and a half to get through


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> Yeah, that's the real standout for me, the 3rd and 4th movements (not that the 1st and 2nd are slouches). Those slow movements are just out of this world heavenly. The apotheosis of the HVK/BPO sound.


Here is a quote from the 2003/4 Penguin Guide (- still sitting on my shelves). "Of the three stereo recordings Karajan has made of the ninth, his 1976 account is the most inspired, above all in the adagio, where he conveys spiritual intensity at a slower tempo than before. In the finale, the concluding eruption has an animal excitement rarely heard from this highly controlled conductor. The soloists make an excellent team. The sound has fine projection and drama."

I looked it up because the remark about animal excitement has stuck with me. Any comments? It seems like the liking for the slow movement is shared. How about the animal excitement??


----------



## DavidA

Eclectic Al said:


> Here is a quote from the 2003/4 Penguin Guide (- still sitting on my shelves). "Of the three stereo recordings Karajan has made of the ninth, his 1976 account is the most inspired, above all in the adagio, where he conveys spiritual intensity at a slower tempo than before. In the finale, the concluding eruption has an animal excitement rarely heard from this highly controlled conductor. The soloists make an excellent team. The sound has fine projection and drama."
> 
> I looked it up because the remark about animal excitement has stuck with me. Any comments? It seems like the liking for the slow movement is shared. *How about the animal excitement?*?


Very much so at the end


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Eclectic Al said:


> Here is a quote from the 2003/4 Penguin Guide (- still sitting on my shelves). "Of the three stereo recordings Karajan has made of the ninth, his 1976 account is the most inspired, above all in the adagio, where he conveys spiritual intensity at a slower tempo than before. In the finale, the concluding eruption has an animal excitement rarely heard from this highly controlled conductor. The soloists make an excellent team. The sound has fine projection and drama."
> 
> I looked it up because the remark about animal excitement has stuck with me. Any comments? It seems like the liking for the slow movement is shared. How about the animal excitement??


"A bit more unbuttoned" than the 1963 is how I hear it. Again, I just wish the chorus had more presence.

Regarding the Bruckner 7th, all three of Karajan's stereo accounts could stand as a reference version. I prefer the 70s DG, followed by the EMI, which is less overtly exciting but a bit more ethereal, and then the VPO, which is wonderfully recorded and has a certain stately power to it.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Here is a quote from the 2003/4 Penguin Guide (- still sitting on my shelves). "Of the three stereo recordings Karajan has made of the ninth, his 1976 account is the most inspired, above all in the adagio, where he conveys spiritual intensity at a slower tempo than before. In the finale, the concluding eruption has an animal excitement rarely heard from this highly controlled conductor. The soloists make an excellent team. The sound has fine projection and drama."
> 
> I looked it up because the remark about animal excitement has stuck with me. Any comments? It seems like the liking for the slow movement is shared. How about the animal excitement??


I think the choral movement has excitement to it. I don't know if I'd go as far as "animal."


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 65
LP#2531-132









Brahms, Symphony No. 2, op. 73
Symphony No. 3, op. 90
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 23-24 January & 19 February 1978
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 71:14

*Review: *This disc comes off better sonically than the previous platter. Both symphonies are rich and full, in keeping with the rest of HVK/BPO's 70's symphonic output, but does not suffer from any lack of clarity. The third symphony in particular beats the pants off the 60s CD "OIBP" version (though not the Hi-Res, which is exceptionally clear). The finale of the third is quite bracing and engaging, with some very fiery playing.

*Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 66
LP#2531-134









Brahms, Symphony No. 4, op. 98
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 20 October & 7/23 December 1977
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 39:55

*Review:* If HVK/BPO's 60s and 80s versions of the Brahms cycle didn't exist, this one would seem better by comparison. But those alternatives do, in fact, exist. And the 70s comes off poorly by comparison. The sonics are sludgy by comparison to the 60s rendition, which takes the cake as the overall cycle of choice. Bass tones are thick and obscuring of detail in the higher registers, where in the 60s recordings they are finely balanced. The 80s is kind of a middle ground between the two. Ultimately, it's fine enough, effective Brahms. The interpretations are basically the same, just ever so slightly faster in the 70s discs. If you had purchased the 70s box or the symphony edition, it's not as though this cycle is an affront. But as an audio quality snob, I don't think I'll be figuratively dusting off this cycle again.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 67
LP#2531-136









Mozart, Symphony No. 35, K385 "Haffner"
Symphony No. 32 (Overture), K318
Symphony No. 36, K425 "Linz"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 25-26 May 1976 & 18 October 1977 (Haffner and Overture); 17 October 1977 (Linz); 
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 52:19
*
Review: *Karajan's previous Mozart with the BPO had been recorded at St. Moritz, to its detriment. Sound textures were muddy and indistinct. That is not an issue here. The Philharmonie gives the performances a crisp, airy feeling. Still HVK/BPO's signature sound, to be sure - you're not going to mistake this for Pinnock or something. I have been comparing these recordings to my newly acquired Adam Fischer/Danish Nat. Chamber Orch. set. They compare pretty favorably! The Fischer set is a mix between fast and slow tempii, and HVK/BPO surprisingly keeps pace for the most part, and even goes faster in spots: check out movement 4 of Haffner (at 13:38 in the appendend video). Yowza! The sound of Fischer is leaner with much more aggressive percussion, while HVK/BPO is more blended, and conservative with percussion - but again, nowhere near the soup of the 60s St. Moritz recordings. Of the three pieces present here, the Linz is the least successful (though not bad by any stretch), as the tempo feels a tad slow compared to the other two pieces. This was a pleasant surprise, overall.

As portrait covers go, these are somewhat silly but are better than the Brahms covers. At least it's just a picture of him consulting the score, as opposed to a weird, harshly lit portrait.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## bharbeke

35 and 36 both sound great under Karajan's direction.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 68
LP#2531-137









Mozart, Symphony No. 38, K504 "Prague"
Symphony No. 39, K543
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 17-18 October 1977 (Prague); 5 December 1975 (39);
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Cord Garben, Michel Glotz 
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 49:57

*Review: *This Mozart platter is successful as well. Both symphonies have a good amount of detail and dynamic range. I found Prague to be a bit on the leaden side as far as tempo goes. 39 was more successful for me, brisker and more interesting. Overall, another nice set, though. Quite enjoyable to listen to, and still far ahead of the 60s HVK/BPO Mozart. 
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 69
LP#2531-138









Mozart, Symphony No. 40, K550;
Symphony No. 41, K551 "Jupiter"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 25 May 1976 & 17February 1977 (No. 40); 10/26 May 1976 (Jupiter)
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Cord Garben, Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 54:53

*Review:* Oh, der Klang! These two symphonies are a perfect fit for the BPO string sound cultivated by HVK. The richness, the depth, the blending while preserving good attacks. Just sublime. Tempii are brisk, dynamic range from piano to fortissimo are excellent. The Philharmonie recording is marvelously clear and well done. It's difficult to pick favorites - the works are so excellent, and the playing so expert. As far as movements go, the first movement of 40 is a showcase for that wondrous String Klang. The final movement of Jupiter has a wondrous finale, with all portions (even the horns and woodwinds, which can occasionally get lost in those stormy seas of strings) of the orchestra playing in fine balance. This is HVK/BPO Mozart at its finest. If you want plushness and power on modern instruments, you can't go wrong with this disc. HIPsters should look elsewhere, lest their monocles drop into their cocktail glasses.

Overall, this mini-cycle represents the most successful HVK/BPO Mozart I've heard. The 60s stuff is... sonically challenged. The 80s is close. But this is where it's at.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


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## bharbeke

I'm glad to see two of Mozart's best symphonies get a 10/10 review. I've got some books lined up to read, and now I've got the music to go with them.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 70-71
LP#2707-090








Verdi, Overtures and Preludes (Nabucco, Macbeth, Il corsaro, Luisa Miller, Rigoletto, La traviata, I Vespri siciliani, Un ballo in maschera, La forza del destino, Aida, Oberto, Un giorno di regno, Giobanni d'Arco, Alzira, Attila, I madnadieri, La battaglia di Legnano, Aroldo)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 22-30 September & 21 October 1975
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch, Magdalene Padberg
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:53:51

*Review:* Sonically, this collection is a masterpiece. Good gravy, what sound quality. I am something of a percussion fetishist when it comes to recordings, and the percussion here is just fantastic (check out the appended La battaglia from about 6:19). The entire mix of every single overture is spacious, airy, thrilling in its range from _piano_ to _fortissimo_, and much of the playing is truly exceptional (I've appended the video of I Masnadieri, which has some astonishing cello solo work - the rest are easily searchable on YouTube). There is no sonic mush to be found here, in almost two hours of run time. The only reason I give it a 9 is that some pieces are less interesting than others, a necessary evil of such a collection. Overall, this is utterly convincing. I can see why HVK/BPO were such a hit in the opera world.

I also love this cover. It's a visually interesting piece of art with good, clear, bold text layout.

*Overall Rating: 9/10*

*Videos: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 72
LP#2707-090









Mahler, Kindertotenlieder and Ruckert Lieder
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Christa Ludwig, contralto
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 8-9 May 1974 & 14 October 1974 
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Hans Weber
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 46:08

*Review: *I must preface any review like this by saying that I am neither a connoisseur of Mahler, nor of Lieder in general. So while I can't say this is something I would play a ton, there were some parts that did speak to me. Particularly the Ruckert Lieder, which I found to be quite beautiful, with excellent balance between Ludwig's singing and the BPO's playing. The first selection in the Ruckert is particularly beautifully sung and played (at the beginning of the Ruckert Lieder video below, "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen"). Not being an expert in this material, I did feel that some of it was a bit pokey in spots.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:
*


----------



## Mannheim Rocket

Those Mozart covers are really disappointing. Nobody could come up with anything better than Karajan looking at the score three different times?


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## BachIsBest

Mannheim Rocket said:


> Those Mozart covers are really disappointing. Nobody could come up with anything better than Karajan looking at the score three different times?


He's even on the same chair in all three. He couldn't switch seats?? What is this guy, Gould II?


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## DavidA

Mannheim Rocket said:


> Those Mozart covers are really disappointing. Nobody could come up with anything better than Karajan looking at the score three different times?


As he never looked at the score in the podium it's perhaps to show he did actually read the score and memorise it!


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## MatthewWeflen

I do vastly prefer historical art or abstract art for covers.


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## JAS

MatthewWeflen said:


> I do vastly prefer historical art or abstract art for covers.


And for me, generally the contents as well.

Edit: perhaps I should say that in the sense of matching the contents.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 73
LP#2531 205









Mahler, Kindertotenlieder and Ruckert Lieder
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Edith Mathis, soprano*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 22-24 January & 22-24 February 1979
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 60:43

*Review:* Mahler, Mahler, Mahler. If he were to take the first complete section of each movement and just make that the final product, these would be amazing symphonies. But why confine yourself to one idea when five would do? This symphony is the quintessential "why Mahler bugs me" example. After the 4th or 5th idea in the adagio (or "Ruhevoll") I just want it to be over. Add in the incongruous vocal part, and the effect is complete.

Anyway, this is recorded very nicely. The balance between the orchestra and the soloist is perfect. Overall orchestral tone is typically excellent for the BPO. I have nothing to criticize on this score.

The material just isn't for me, at least not right now.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 73
> LP#2531 205
> 
> View attachment 143360
> 
> 
> Mahler, Kindertotenlieder and Ruckert Lieder
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Edith Mathis, soprano*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 22-24 January & 22-24 February 1979
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Cord Garben
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 60:43
> 
> *Review:* Mahler, Mahler, Mahler. If he were to take the first complete section of each movement and just make that the final product, these would be amazing symphonies. But why confine yourself to one idea when five would do? This symphony is the quintessential "why Mahler bugs me" example. After the 4th or 5th idea in the adagio (or "Ruhevoll") I just want it to be over. Add in the incongruous vocal part, and the effect is complete.
> 
> Anyway, this is recorded very nicely. The balance between the orchestra and the soloist is perfect. Overall orchestral tone is typically excellent for the BPO. I have nothing to criticize on this score.
> 
> The material just isn't for me, at least not right now.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 8/10
> 
> Videos:*


This disc is one of my favourite HvK recordings. I started out with Szell/Cleveland and some years later added this. It's beautifully recorded the performance of both the Symphony and the songs is up there with the best, in my opinion. If this was the only M4 that I was allowed to have, I wouldn't be unhappy.


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## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> This disc is one of my favourite HvK recordings. I started out with Szell/Cleveland and some years later added this. It's beautifully recorded the performance of both the Symphony and the songs is up there with the best, in my opinion. If this was the only M4 that I was allowed to have, I wouldn't be unhappy.


Yeah, if you're into Mahler, I can't see much to downgrade this for. I'm just not into Mahler


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 74
LP#2531 250









Beethoven, Violinkonzert op. 61
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 24-25 & 27-29 September 1980
Executive Producer: Gunther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 48:20
*
Review: *This is not one of my favorite Beethoven pieces. The three movements are a bit all over the place. The Allegro seems like a complete piece on its own, while the Larghetto drags. The Rondo is big, delightful fun. The BPO plays well, and Mutter is great in the Rondo. But things are a bit screechy for my tastes in the earlier movements. Sonically the record is unimpeachable, with the aforementioned exception of the occasional screeching violin. The 1967 account with Ferras as soloist is preferable to this one, for me. It is more incisive, airier, less screechy, and more exciting.

*Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos: *


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 75
LP#2531 262









Beethoven, Tripelkonzert op. 56
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin
Yo-Yo Ma, cello
Mark Zeltser, piano*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 18 December 1979
Executive Producer: Gunther Breest
Recording Producer: Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 36:15

*Review: *In contrast to the Violin Concerto, this is far more successful. Smashing, really. The way Ma and Mutter play in sync during the Allegro (beginning at 9:10 in the appended video) is consistently stunning and pleasurable. I was bopping my head and grinning the whole time. The acoustics are tremendous. All three solo instruments are clear, but so are the woodwinds and the orchestra generally. Brisk, exciting, wonderful. A triumph. I have not yet listened to the EMI recording with Oistrakh, Rostropovitch and Richter. I can't imagine it being better (but if it is, all the better - two triumphs).

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

Videos:


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 75
> LP#2531 262
> 
> View attachment 143471
> 
> 
> Beethoven, Tripelkonzert op. 56
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin
> Yo-Yo Ma, cello
> Mark Zeltser, piano*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 18 December 1979
> Executive Producer: Gunther Breest
> Recording Producer: Cord Garben
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 36:15
> 
> *Review: *In contrast to the Violin Concerto, this is far more successful. Smashing, really. The way Ma and Mutter play in sync during the Allegro (beginning at 9:10 in the appended video) is consistently stunning and pleasurable. I was bopping my head and grinning the whole time. The acoustics are tremendous. All three solo instruments are clear, but so are the woodwinds and the orchestra generally. Brisk, exciting, wonderful. A triumph. I have not yet listened to the EMI recording with Oistrakh, Rostropovitch and Richter. I can't imagine it being better (but if it is, all the better - two triumphs).
> 
> *Overall Rating: 10/10*
> 
> Videos:


I've never heard this performance and your 10/10 rating has whetted my appetite!


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## MatthewWeflen

--- duplicate post removed ---


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## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> I've never heard this performance and your 10/10 rating has whetted my appetite!


Please share your thoughts! I just finished it. It took my mind off of my creeping dread of societal collapse for a solid 36 minutes. It's f-ing fabulous.


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> Please share your thoughts! I just finished it. It took my mind off of my creeping dread of societal collapse for a solid 36 minutes. It's f-ing fabulous.


It's a good performance a little freer than the famous EMI one but rather less accurate. Comparison of the covers says it all


----------



## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> This is not one of my favourite Beethoven pieces.


Off topic, but there was a thread a while ago about why composers seemed to outdo themselves with their violin concertos. I must confess, I just didn't agree with the premise. I like plenty of violin concertos: Prokofiev (especially 1), Elgar, Sibelius, Mendelssohn, etc, etc, but I don't think they are better than plenty of other pieces by their composers.

Two composers I listen to most are Beethoven and Brahms - and in both cases I don't really go for their violin concertos. Ditto Bartok, Shostakovich (neither one, in neither case).
Bach's violin concertos are fine, but less dependent on being "violin" pieces.
Sibelius - fine, but I certainly don't think it out-does his symphonic achievement or tone poems.
I think with Mendelssohn the violin concerto is among his finest pieces (- finest means "I like it best" :lol, but beyond that I struggle to identify a composer whose violin concerto is one of their best pieces. (Oh, perhaps Berg, but that's probably for specific reasons.)

OK, that's that off my chest.
Apologies for going off-topic.


----------



## DavidA

^
I would say the Beethoven violin concerto is perhaps the finest concerto ever written


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Just from my listening over the last few nights, I think Beethoven's Triple Concerto is better than the Violin Concerto. I really strongly responded to this performance on both an emotional and intellectual level.

The Sibelius VC is great. Mendelssohn, Bruch, Tchaikovsky, Brahms VC, all very good. Perhaps instrument concertos tend to be good because there is a lot of strong melodic writing for one instrument that makes the music stick out to the listener.

One thing that has really been sticking out to me in my recent listening is Schubert's quartets/quintets, and trios. He is such a strong melody guy, and the melodies are really forefronted in the chamber pieces compared to the symphonies.

Overall, for my preferences, I think a truly great symphony tends to be better than a great violin concerto; but it might be easier to write a good VC than a middling symphony.


----------



## Eclectic Al

DavidA said:


> ^
> I would say the Beethoven violin concerto is perhaps the finest concerto ever written


That sounds like one for a thread of its own. It must have been done. Surely "best concerto" must also have been subject to assessment by a Talk Classical competition at some point.


----------



## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> The Sibelius VC is great. Mendelssohn, Bruch ...


At least in terms of popularity I guess the Bruch must be one of those cases where a violin concerto is indeed at the top of its composer's pieces of work. That perhaps gives me Mendelssohn and Bruch as two composers where the violin concerto is among their best (meaning my favourite) achievements.

Agree on preferring Schubert's chamber music to his symphonies, although I recently acquired his complete symphonies as I am only really familiar with the usual suspects. I am currently having a bit of a go at early works for a number of composers (eg Mendelssohn String Symphonies), and Schubert early symphonies and quartets are on that list.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> ^
> I would say the Beethoven violin concerto is perhaps the finest concerto ever written


Well certainly that's the consensus, alongside the Brahms. I like the Brahms better, but it's also my favorite overall piece.

The Beethoven VC is a great work, of course. The meat is in the first movement, but the middle movement is very eloquent and beautiful. If you're not into poetry and depth, this work won't be appealing. My go-to recordings are Kreisler, Huberman, and Perlman.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Well certainly that's the consensus, alongside the Brahms. I like the Brahms better, but it's also my favorite overall piece.
> 
> The Beethoven VC is a great work, of course. The meat is in the first movement, but the middle movement is very eloquent and beautiful. If you're not into poetry and depth, this work won't be appealing. My go-to recordings are Kreisler, Huberman, and Perlman.


I prefer it performed as maybe the composer intended. There is a performance by Kopanskinskaja but atm it sells at £105


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> At least in terms of popularity I guess the Bruch must be one of those cases where a violin concerto is indeed at the top of its composer's pieces of work. That perhaps gives me Mendelssohn and Bruch as two composers where the violin concerto is among their best (meaning my favourite) achievements.
> 
> Agree on preferring Schubert's chamber music to his symphonies, although I recently acquired his complete symphonies as I am only really familiar with the usual suspects. I am currently having a bit of a go at early works for a number of composers (eg Mendelssohn String Symphonies), and Schubert early symphonies and quartets are on that list.


Oh, I enjoy his symphonies quite a bit. They're not at the level of a Beethoven or Brahms, but they're certainly in the Mendelssohn/Schubert/Schumann ballpark. It's just that his string quartets and quintet seem more distinguished than the symphonies.


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> Please share your thoughts! I just finished it. It took my mind off of my creeping dread of societal collapse for a solid 36 minutes. It's f-ing fabulous.


I shall, when I can. As I said earlier, your thread has pushed me over the line and I have gone and bought the 60s, 70s & 80s sets as downloads (keen price, booklets etc included). But because I'm currently travelling through Turkey and my internet facility is limited, I will be unable to download the files and listen to them until mid October when I'm back home in London.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 76
LP#2531 284-285









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 1, op. 13 "Winter Daydreams"
Symphony No. 2, op. 17 "Little Russian" 
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 9/10 December 1977; 15-16,29 January & 20-21 February 1979
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Cord Garben, Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 80:16

*Review:* I think these recordings of Tchaikovsky 1 and 2 put the lie to the notion that HVK/BPO was too "smooth," "homogeneous," or somehow lacked drama. The attacks are crisp, the tempii are fast, and the orchestra as a whole makes these into slamming, dramatic pieces during Allegro passages. The Andantes are lovely, too. While the opening of the first is mysterious and beautiful, the conclusion is positively thrilling. Listen from 43:27 in the appended video. Good God! The Scherzo of the 2nd symphony features some terrific, nimble playing, and the conclusion is yet again an aural spectacle to behold. I own the Michael Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra box set as an alternative to this cycle. It sounds like it's on barbiturates by comparison. I don't know what more one could want in a set of renditions of Tchaikovsky's early symphonies. Truly a great recording.

*Overall Rating: 10/10*


----------



## Fat Bob

I love HvK in Tchaikovsky on the whole but marginally prefer Jansons in the first symphony, especially in the slow movement.






PS: I've not been around the forum much in recent months and have only just discovered this thread - love it and thank you for doing this!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 77
LP#2531 286









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 3, op. 29 "Polish"
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 17 February 1978, 29 January & 20-21 February 1979
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 46:40

*Review: *This record concludes HVK's one and only complete Tchaikovsky cycle. I think, overall, it might be their finest achievement as a creative unit, or at least their most consistent. Other recordings that match its brilliance are the Sibelius symphonies, R. Strauss, and significant chunks of the Beethoven cycle. Anyway, this is yet another grand slam record. Absolutely fantastic acoustics, bombastic when need be, mysterious, with fine detail on string plucks, big brass and percussion in the climaxes. Listen from 9:54 in the appended recording. The attacks! the crispness! The depth of strings and brass!

Anyway, it's been a straight ten across the board for the 70s Tchaikovsky cycle. It's kind of amazing HVK did not feel the need to record 1-3 as often as 4-6. They are played with intense conviction, as if they're every bit as deserving of attention, and a strong case is made for just that.

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

*Video:*


----------



## bharbeke

I must have been grumpy when I first heard Tchaikovsky 1-3 by Karajan. 1 and 2 each bumped up a rating after this listen, and 3 could possibly do the same.

My favorite of the Symphony No. 1 performances remains Igor Markevitch with the London Symphony Orchestra.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> I must have been grumpy when I first heard Tchaikovsky 1-3 by Karajan. 1 and 2 each bumped up a rating after this listen, and 3 could possibly do the same.
> 
> My favorite of the Symphony No. 1 performances remains Igor Markevitch with the London Symphony Orchestra.


I think the worst that can be said about them is that the signature HVK/BPO sound might obscure some instrument groups (e.g. woodwinds). But I'm listening to hi-res FLAC files on very good headphones, so I can still pick them out. Their commendable qualities are their drive and excitement. I was sort of bopping my head and smiling and being thrilled almost all the way through each.


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> I think the worst that can be said about them is that the signature HVK/BPO sound might obscure some instrument groups (e.g. woodwinds). But I'm listening to hi-res FLAC files on very good headphones, so I can still pick them out. Their commendable qualities are their drive and excitement. I was sort of bopping my head and smiling and being thrilled almost all the way through each.


I replaced my CDs with the remastered Blu-ray Disc "Pure Audio" Edition, and the sound quality is superb. There is no issue whatsoever hearing woodwinds (not that I thought it was an issue before; it was not.) I typically reject instantly any recording where important woodwind parts go unheard. With Karajan's Tchaikovsky, the woodwinds sound amazing, vividly placed in the balance but not artificially spot lit, as does indeed the whole orchestra. I can often even hear clearly the second woodwind parts! Which is important to me.

Listening to the Sixth on headphones as I type this.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> I replaced my CDs with the remastered Blu-ray Disc "Pure Audio" Edition, and the sound quality is superb. There is no issue whatsoever hearing woodwinds (not that I thought it was an issue before; it was not.) I typically reject instantly any recording where important woodwind parts go unheard. With Karajan's Tchaikovsky, the woodwinds sound amazing, vividly placed in the balance but not artificially spot lit, as does indeed the whole orchestra. I can often even hear clearly the second woodwind parts! Which is important to me.
> 
> Listening to the Sixth on headphones as I type this.


Yeah, I ripped my FLAC files from that same Blu-Ray. It's just an astounding mix. The YouTube videos give an impression, but the hi-res really reveals all.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 78
LP#2531 295









Bruckner, Symphony No. 6, 
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 25-26 September 1979
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 57:40

*Review:* Sonically, this recording shares much with the prior Bruckner recordings undertaken at the Philharmonie in the 1970s and 80s. It has a full-bodied, impactful sound with a good amount of detail in things like string plucks, percussion, and woodwinds. The bass tones are amazing in the big swells of the 1st and 4th movements. I do find my attention wanders a tad when listening to it - probably this is no fault of the performance but owes more to the symphony itself. The 6th lacks some of the "hooks" of the other symphonies, especially in the Scherzo, but generally throughout. IT is relatively low on my ranked list of Bruckner symphonies as a result.

*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## Eclectic Al

I haven't heard this performance, but there was a whole thread about why number 6 was the ugly duckling of the Bruckner set. Many (including myself) demurred, and had it as one of their favourites.

For me it seems a bit "leaner" than other Bruckner symphonies - and no bad thing.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> I haven't heard this performance, but there was a whole thread about why number 6 was the ugly duckling of the Bruckner set. Many (including myself) demurred, and had it as one of their favourites.
> 
> For me it seems a bit "leaner" than other Bruckner symphonies - and no bad thing.


I don't _dislike _it. It was perfectly pleasant to listen to. It just doesn't stick in my head the way whole chunks of 7-9 or the scherzos from 1-5 do.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 79
LP#2707 112









Bach, Brandenburg Concertos 1-3, BWV1046-1048
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Phillip Moll, harpsichord*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 1-3 July 1978 & 28-29 January 1979
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 47:42

*Review: *Well, it's better throughout than the 60s version. The harpsichord is audible in each concerto. The third concerto (the most iconic of the 6 in my opinion) is the most improved in terms of audio. Tempii are brisk and even the slow movements do not drag. I think Concerto 1 sounds a bit mushy, and though audible, I would prefer the harpsichord be more forward in the audio mix for all three concertos. All in all, it's enjoyable as background music (I listened to them several times while cooking over the last few days) but not really for close listening. A leaner set like Pinnock still suits my Bach tastes better.

As an aside, I do quite like the cover. It gets you looking at it to figure out what it is, and once you do, it still evokes an interesting "Tron" aesthetic.
*
Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 80
LP#2707 112









Bach, Brandenburg Concertos 4-6, BWV1049-1051
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Phillip Moll, harpsichord*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 1-3 July 1978 & 28-29 January 1979
Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 58:15
*
Review: *The 5th concerto here is straight up delightful, without reservation. The harpsichord sings out loud and clear, and the solo work in the first movement is ravishing. This really makes me lament every other HVK/BPO recording of the Brandenburgs, because if they were like this, it would be an entirely different conversation. The 4th is fairly good as well. The 6th starts out a bit muddy, and HVK/BPO's "big band" sound comes off soupy. But things clear up by the quite pleasant 3rd movement, which has some very nice string work. All in all, if you're intent on hearing HVK's conception of the Brandenburgs, this is his best disc. But it's still roundly bested by Pinnock and The English Concert for clarity and detail.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## DavidA

^

I think it must be a tribute to HvK that he still wanted to record these masterpieces even though the tide of fashion was running against this style. And yes we would find them somewhat overblown and prefer a more chamber music period approach but that doesn’t mean to say there is a pleasure in listening to the Berlin Philharmonic in this music


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## MatthewWeflen

*1970's Disc 81-82
LP#2707 125









Mahler, Symphony No. 9 in D Major
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 15-17 February & 30 September 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Cord Garben
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 82:58

*Review: *OK, stipulating my general response to Mahler (i.e. "One movement would have been enough!" and "Dear Lord why is this so long!") this is fabulously recorded and played. Percussion is percussive and booming, strings are vigorous on the attack, the overall mix is very clear. It's all very pleasing over good speakers or headphones. The adagio as well is quite special, filled with pathos. I can't really imagine a different recording of Mahler making it clearer to me what people see in it. There are beautiful textures and exciting playing throughout this (to me) apparently aimless journey through Mahler's unique sound world.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

So, the 1970s box is done and listened to. It was a whale of a journey, and better in my estimation than the 60s box (which was no slouch, to be sure).

What typifies this collection of music is what I would term HVK/BPO's mature sound. They are functioning at the height of their powers here, both in terms of playing, conducting, and recording.

*I gave 10s to:*
Rossini Overtures
Strauss Till Eulenspiegels/Salome/Tod und Verklarung/Don Juan
Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra
Mendelssohn Sym. 2
Mendelssohn Sym. 4&5
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Bruckner 8
Tchaikovsky 1-6
Bruckner 9
Beethoven 1&2
Beethoven 3
Beethoven 8&9
Bruckner 7
Mozart 40&41
Beethoven Triple Concerto
*
While my lowest scores were reserved for: *
Vivaldi 6 Concerti 
Vivaldi's 4 Seasons (a disaster)
Weinachtkozerte collection
Carl Orff De temporum fine comoedia (an hour I'll never get back)

This was an especially fertile period for HVK/BPO and it gave us a Tchaikovsky cycle for the ages, their best crack at the Beethoven cycle, the highly regarded Second Vienna recordings, world-beating R. Strauss, strong Mendelssohn and Schumann cycles, and some very competent late Mozart symphonies. This in addition to some very fine overture work on Verdi, Rossini, von Weber, among others. All of HVK/BPO's studio Mahler recordings were produced in this period, and there is very little to fault them with.

Less successful are another set of Brandenburgs. They improve on their 60s counterparts, but are still kind of "meh." Other redos also fall a tad flat, such as Tchikovsky's Piano Concerto, Beethoven's Violin Concerto, and the Brahms cycle. They're not bad _per se_, just surpassed by prior (or later) recordings. I'm also not really a fan of the choral works present here, and I find that most of the ones that duplicate 60s recordings are surpassed by those recordings. Again, not bad, just "meh" for me.

All in all, though, it's a pretty great box of music. It wouldn't be comprehensive of all of Karajan's greatest output, but it has a very significant chunk of it, and serves as a good intro to standard repertoire to boot.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I am one of those people who hear a big difference in the emotional engagement between HvK’s 1980 studio vs 1982 live Mahler 9. The 1980 sounds kind of stale while the 1982 is more involving, one of the great recordings of the work alongside Barbirolli, Klemperer, Kondrashin, Ancerl, and Walter’s 1938 VPO.


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## BachIsBest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am one of those people who hear a big difference in the emotional engagement between HvK's 1980 studio vs 1982 live Mahler 9. The 1980 sounds kind of stale while the 1982 is more involving, one of the great recordings of the work alongside Barbirolli, Klemperer, Kondrashin, Ancerl, and Walter's 1938 VPO.


And this one. Trust me, you absolutely have to hear this one. It's probably the most shockingly intense performance of the work I've ever heard (Karajan beats it on austere beauty but that's why it's great to have such a variety of performances).


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

BachIsBest said:


> And this one. Trust me, you absolutely have to hear this one. It's probably the most shockingly intense performance of the work I've ever heard (Karajan beats it on austere beauty but that's why it's great to have such a variety of performances).


Wow, that is certainly one of the better ones I have heard. I don't know that it is more intense than Barbirolli, Karajan '82, Kondrashin, and Ancerl, but it is in the ballpark, and the sound is surprisingly good.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 1
LP#2532015









R. Strauss, Eine Alpensinfonie, op. 64
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
David Bell, organ*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, December 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 51:01

*Review: *This recording is the first multi-track digital recording for HVK/BPO at DG, and was used as the first test pressing of the compact disc format, for which Sony and Philips recruited HVK as an ambassador. Apparently, the mastering of the original release was harsh "early digital," with overly bright strings and an unpleasant sound. This has, however, been totally rectified by remastering, in both the "Gold Edition" and the 1980s box. Oh my goodness. The sound on offer here is just stupendous. The organ comes across perfectly, and provides a low, rich, rumbling foundation to the clear, airy, detailed sound. This is positively thrilling. The whole passage from 35:28 (Gewitter und Sturm) through the ending (Nacht) is just superlative. Auf dem Gipfel 20:51 is also great. The whole thing is utterly riveting. This is one of those recordings that I start, thinking I'll just listen to a few highlights, and then I am just compelled to listen to the entire thing. An unalloyed triumph.

I also like the cover very much. The light was caught beautifully.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 2
LP#2532063









Bruckner, Symphony No. 2 (1877 version)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, December 1980 & January 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 60:07

*Review: *If there is a difference between the digital multi-track recordings of Bruckner and the Analog recordings of one or two years prior, I can't say I really notice it. The recording is clear and strong, with a definite feeling of space. I love the Scherzo particularly here. I think it's one of Bruckner's stronger ones, and the percussion part in the last 30 seconds is thrilling (41:47 in the appended video). As far as the material, I quite like the earlier Bruckner symphonies. I think they're very accessible and have memorable melodies. I can't really find a reason to fault this recording, as such I rate it...

*Overall Rating: 10/10*

*Video:*


----------



## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 1
> LP#2532015
> 
> View attachment 144087
> 
> 
> R. Strauss, Eine Alpensinfonie, op. 64
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> David Bell, organ*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, December 1980
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:01
> 
> *Review: *This recording is the first multi-track digital recording for HVK/BPO at DG, and was used as the first test pressing of the compact disc format, for which Sony and Philips recruited HVK as an ambassador. Apparently, the mastering of the original release was harsh "early digital," with overly bright strings and an unpleasant sound. This has, however, been totally rectified by remastering, in both the "Gold Edition" and the 1980s box. Oh my goodness. The sound on offer here is just stupendous. The organ comes across perfectly, and provides a low, rich, rumbling foundation to the clear, airy, detailed sound. This is positively thrilling. The whole passage from 35:28 (Gewitter und Sturm) through the ending (Nacht) is just superlative. Auf dem Gipfel 20:51 is also great. The whole thing is utterly riveting. This is one of those recordings that I start, thinking I'll just listen to a few highlights, and then I am just compelled to listen to the entire thing. An unalloyed triumph.
> 
> I also like the cover very much. The light was caught beautifully.
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


I bought this secondhand on the CD but the one problem with it was there were no tracks on it


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 3
LP#2532006









Jacques Offenbach, Overtures (Orpheus int he Underworld, Bluebeard, The Grand Duchess of Gerolstien, The Beautiful Helene, Kakadu, The Tales of Hoffman: Barcarolle)
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, June 1980 & September 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 44:02

*Review:* This digital recording is less successful. The dynamic range is crazy-making. I listen over headphones at night, so not challenging conditions, and I had to adjust volume up and then down for quiet and loud parts. There is also a strange audio dropout in the left channel of the Helene overture (at roughly 8:25 in the appended video - which indicates that it is not my FLAC rip but something inherent in the CD). All in all, these are pleasant diversions, but little more. The playing is typically high quality but the recordings leave something to be desired.

*Overall Rating: 6/10

Video:*


----------



## BachIsBest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Wow, that is certainly one of the better ones I have heard. I don't know that it is more intense than Barbirolli, Karajan '82, Kondrashin, and Ancerl, but it is in the ballpark, and the sound is surprisingly good.


I'm not sure if we're quite using the word 'intensity' in the same way (and this may be my fault). I'll try and explain myself more clearly.

As with any work about death, interpreting the ninth requires conductors to hold a delicate balance; as death is only sad insofar as it indicates the end of life, how much do you emphasise the struggle for life versus the gentle repose into the void. If the piece is too much a struggle, the ending of peacefulness and that heartbreaking sense of life evanescing ceases to make sense in the context of the whole piece. On the other hand, if there is no struggle, then where is the sadness in the piece; if death's embrace is the goal, and it is achieved, where is the sorrow? The piece is evidently tragic and thus needs the struggle needs to be present.

Now to try and say what I kinda meant to say, I think Rosbaud most convincingly brings out a sort of 'struggle for life' in the piece. I'm not saying his interpretation is the best (in fact, I'm more consistently moved by the ending of Karajan's rather than Rosbaud's), but that he is the best in this aspect. Karajan, for me, is the best in the opposite extreme with other great interpreters fitting somewhere in the middle. I know you very much like Barboroilli, but I find his rubato-heavy approach can sometimes distract from the flow of the music and come across as overly neurotic (I still really like it on the whole though).

Anyway, to bring this all back on topic, Karajan is legendary here, and rightfully so, regardless of the other interpretations available.

On another note, inspired by the reviews on this thread, I just bought the Karajan Symphony edition. I already had some stuff, but didn't have other things, for example, the Tchaikovsky cycle which Mat rated so highly was absent!


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## MatthewWeflen

BachIsBest said:


> On another note, inspired by the reviews on this thread, I just bought the Karajan Symphony edition. I already had some stuff, but didn't have other things, for example, the Tchaikovsky cycle which Mat rated so highly was absent!











Are you saying Tchaikovsky wasn't in the Symphony Edition? I thought it was. It's definitely listen on the back of the box.

https://www.amazon.com/Karajan-Symphony-Herbert-Von/dp/B001DCQIAU/

Anyway, it's an _incredible _box set for the price. At least three of the cycles are world class, and I truly enjoy all of them.


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## BachIsBest

MatthewWeflen said:


> View attachment 144271
> 
> 
> Are you saying Tchaikovsky wasn't in the Symphony Edition? I thought it was. It's definitely listen on the back of the box.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Karajan-Symphony-Herbert-Von/dp/B001DCQIAU/
> 
> Anyway, it's an _incredible _box set for the price. At least three of the cycles are world class, and I truly enjoy all of them.


No, I meant the Tchaikovsky wasn't in my collection (although it will be when the set is delivered)! I already had the Beethoven, but it's still a good price.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 4
LP#2532025








Johann Strauss Jr: 
An der Schonen, blauen Donau op.314
Eljen a Magyar, op. 332
Accelerationen, op. 234
Persischer Marsch, op. 289
Die Fledermaus, Overture
Leichtes Blut, op. 319
Künstlerleben, op.316
Unter Donner und Blitz, op. 324
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, June & December 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 49:55
*
Review:* This collection is the first of three discs that duplicate and expand upon the material on the 60s "Blue Danube" disc. The digital sound captured in the Philharmonie here is leaner and more detailed than the 60s, recorded at the Jesus Christus Kirche, a venue with more reverb. I prefer the digital recording. It's less bombastic to be sure, but so much more is audible without being drowned out. All in all, if you're in the market for a collection of Strauss waltzes, this one is tough to beat. Both are good, this is slightly better and comes with more material in all three discs.
* 
Overall Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## DavidA

BachIsBest said:


> No, I meant the Tchaikovsky wasn't in my collection (although it will be when the set is delivered)! I already had the Beethoven, but it's still a good price.


Yes I bought this site at a very reasonable price. I think I had it for a birthday present and I have had many happy hours with it. The performances are never less than good and some of them are really very special


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## MatthewWeflen

DavidA said:


> The performances are never less than good and some of them are really very special


This is a very apt sentence that applies to basically HVK's entire discography.


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## DavidA

MatthewWeflen said:


> This is a very apt sentence that applies to basically HVK's entire discography.


90% of it anyway!


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 5
LP#2532026









Johann Strauss Jr:
Kaiser-Walzer, op. 437
Tritsch-Tratsch-Polka, op. 214
Rosen aus dem Suden, op. 388
Der Zigeunerbaron: Ouverture
Annen-Polka, op. 117
Wein, Weib und Gesang, op. 333
Auf der Jagd, op. 373
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, December 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 44:39

*Review: *A comntinuation of the Strauss set with much the same qualities of the previous disc. Playing is crisp, sound is rangy and detailed. Kaiser-Walzer is the highlight, and is excellently played. The BPO give the VPO a run for their money.

*Overall Rating: 8/10

Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 6
LP#2532027









Johann Strauss Sr.: Radetzky Marsch, op. 228
Josef Strauss: Spharenklange, op. 235; Delirien-Walzer, op. 212
Johann Strauss Jr. Perpetuum mobile op. 257;G'schichten aus dem Wienerwald, op. 325; Die Fledermaus: Quadrille, op. 363; Wiener Blut, op. 354; Napoleon Marsch, op. 156
Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
Josef Hausmann, zither (op. 325)*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, June&December 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 53:43

Review: The final installment of the Strauss family set of digital discs. Again, nicely played with brilliant recording clarity. Snare drums really come through, even when played ever so softly. I would say the highlight is the Radetzky march, but of course without the audience clapping it's more an exercise in technical brilliance than excitement. The material here again beats 60s renditions for sound quality.
*
Overall Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 7
LP#2532037









Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 82 "The Bear" Hob I:82,
Symphony No. 87, Hob I:87
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, June & July 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 53:22

*Review: *I have been listening to this digital set of the Paris symphonies (three discs in total) over and over during the past week. They're living rent-free in my brain. If I had to choose some adjectives, they would be "bracing," "witty" and "beautiful." Why couldn't the 60s Mozart and Bach have been like this? Some of it comes down to the recording quality - the Philharmonie offers great clarity without of a lot of obscuring reverb, but still richness in the bass tones. But some of it is the playing and emphasis. The attacks on strings are crisp, but the lines are deep. The first movement of 82 has a lovely woodwind part that just sings with complete clarity. I own the Adam Fischer complete Haydn cycle, and this blows it away in terms of audio quality - while both share a similar interpretive approach. It's like a wonderful synthesis between the Klang of HVK's BPO and the brisker approach of HIPsters. Joyous. I love the cover, too!

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## Eclectic Al

That's Haydn for you. I spent some time a while ago listening to all his symphonies, and nothing else. When I got to the end was I fed up? No. In fact, it was the opposite, and I struggled to get into listening to anything else for some time.


----------



## DavidA

I have the HvK Haydn and it is big band but very good indeed of its sort. Of course there are other ways of doing it but that does not invalidate the sound of the Berlin Philharmonic


----------



## Knorf

Karajan was great for Haydn, which was much better than his Mozart in my opinion. (I still can't get into Karajan's Mozart.)

Of one of my all-time favorite Haydn recordings is Karajan doing Symphony No. 104 with the Vienna Philharmonic from the Salzburg Festival, a live performance from the 1970s, that was available on the now sadly defunct "Andante" label. It's just wonderfully joyous, incisive and never ponderous. I love it!


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 8
LP#2532038









Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 84 Hob I:84,
Symphony No. 85 "The Queen", Hob I:85
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, June & July 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 50:09

*Review: *Symphony 84 is a little less engaging than the previous disc's selections. But Symphony 85 is a barn burner! I can see why Marie Antoinette liked it so much. The recording again displays all the fine qualities of the previous - the level of fine detail and tonal balance is really extraordinary. The attacks on 85 in particular are really engaging. The woodwind playing on the second movements of both symphonies is also a standout.
*
Overall Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## bharbeke

I listened to 82 and 87 along with a couple of the recent waltzes in the thread, and they were all great. Haydn definitely had a way with woodwinds.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 9
LP#2532039









Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 83 "The Hen," Hob I:83,
Symphony No. 86, Hob I:86
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, June & July 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 53:41

*Review: *Symphony 83 is my favorite Haydn symphony, and this is my favorite rendition of it. The BPO "klang" is perfect here. Light and brisk when it needs to be, bold and full when the music calls for it. The first movement is Beethovenian in spots, but then retreats into the fun and comedy of Haydn. The contrast is delightful. The second movement has austere beauty, the third refined amusement, the finale delight and dance. It's just wonderful all the way through. 86 is no slouch either, with some terrific string playing by the BPO. The finale has some wonderful percussion. This disc brings the Paris set to a triumphant conclusion. Was it a shock that HVK/BPO could do such justice to classical repertoire? I don't think so. Previous recordings of Mozart only suffered from venue issues at times, while enjoying good readings. Handel's Concerto Grossi were really well done. Only Bach and Vivaldi were flat to this point. I think this is top shelf Haydn.
*
Overall Rating: 10/10

Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 10
LP#2532007









Anon Bruckner, Symphony No. 3 (1888/89 version, Nowak edition)
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 56:49

*Review: *Do you like your Bruckner to be Olympian? Do you prefer your orchestral sound to remind you of clouds parting, sun blasting through the opening, and waves crashing against the shore? Well, have I got a recording for you. Not to undersell the dynamic range and piano passages, either, but this is blow your hair back, send your mind into the cosmos, challenge your capacity to appreciate the Platonic Form of Beauty Bruckner. The sound that erupts at 3:06 in the appended recording is spine tingling, and similar fusions of strings and brass permeate this recording in the best HVK/BPO tradition. The Adagio is transcendent, but never loses its sense of momentum. The brisk Scherzo is punctuated by wonderful percussion playing. The finale is one of Bruckner's most melodic and narrative, and it is done justice here. All in all, a tremendously appealing symphony played extremely well.

*Overall Rating: 10/10

Video: *


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I agree the HvK 3rd is high octane. On comparison I prefer the Bohm and Haitink for their greater emphasis on the charm of the work. There are some who say HvK’s approach worked better in symphonies 7-9, and I tend to agree.


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## Fat Bob

Completely agree with your assessment of Bruckner 3, one of my favourite discs. To go back a bit though, I have the Haydn discs as part of the “Karajan symphony edition” box set but have to confess to having ignored those particular discs. Since you were so enthusiastic about them I pulled out number 83 and yes - that is really rather fine. Thanks for sending me back to those discs!


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 11
LP#2532012









Tchaikovsky, Serenade for Strings, op. 48
Dvořák, Serenade for Strings, op. 22
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 59:49

*Review: *Neither of these is my favorite piece for either composer, but they're undeniably well played. I do think that technically speaking, these recordings have been surpassed in quality by modern digital. But at least in this remaster, they are far from "bad." They are admirably free of hiss and they let the contrabasses and cellos really dig deep into the tonal range. But they do sound a tad "crunchy" like early digital can. I like the Tchaikovsky piece over the Dvořák. All in all, not bad, but not something that inspires frequent replay.
*
Overall Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 12
LP#2532074









R. Strauss, Metamorphosen;
Tod und Verklärung, op. 24
Berliner Philharmoniker
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980 & January 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 51:32
*
Review: *Both pieces are played wonderfully and have a good sense of narrative that doesn't get lost. The Metamorphosen has a slight "early digital" sound in the hottest parts of the mix (when higher-pitched string groups crescendo - if you're curious what I'm referring to, have a listen around the 10 minute mark in the appended video). It's an unfortunate blot on an otherwise beautiful rendition with lots of pathos. The Tod is recorded later and sounds the better for it. The percussion is wondrous and the sound quality is pin-sharp and clear.

All in all, this is the disc I return to the most for the Metamorphosen, despite my reservations about the sound. As a performance, it's a 10. But as an album it's a...

*Overall Rating: 9/10*


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 11
> LP#2532012
> 
> View attachment 144750
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Serenade for Strings, op. 48
> Dvořák, Serenade for Strings, op. 22
> Berliner Philharmoniker*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 59:49
> 
> *Review: *Neither of these is my favorite piece for either composer, but they're undeniably well played. I do think that technically speaking, these recordings have been surpassed in quality by modern digital. But at least in this remaster, they are far from "bad." They are admirably free of hiss and they let the contrabasses and cellos really dig deep into the tonal range. But they do sound a tad "crunchy" like early digital can. I like the Tchaikovsky piece over the Dvořák. All in all, not bad, but not something that inspires frequent replay.
> *
> Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos:*


I've a funny feeling that T & D would have loved this disc!


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 12
> LP#2532074
> 
> View attachment 144799
> 
> 
> R. Strauss, Metamorphosen;
> Tod und Verklärung, op. 24
> Berliner Philharmoniker
> *
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980 & January 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:32
> *
> Review: *Both pieces are played wonderfully and have a good sense of narrative that doesn't get lost. The Metamorphosen has a slight "early digital" sound in the hottest parts of the mix (when higher-pitched string groups crescendo - if you're curious what I'm referring to, have a listen around the 10 minute mark in the appended video). It's an unfortunate blot on an otherwise beautiful rendition with lots of pathos. The Tod is recorded later and sounds the better for it. The percussion is wondrous and the sound quality is pin-sharp and clear.
> 
> All in all, this is the disc I return to the most for the Metamorphosen, despite my reservations about the sound. As a performance, it's a 10. But as an album it's a...
> 
> *Overall Rating: 9/10*


This is an amazing performance of Tod and M is not that far behind either. It was among of the first 100 classical CDs I bought, but the recording was a bit toothy with too much glare and it really detracted from my enjoyment. I sought refuge in Kempe, Klempere et al. But the K Gold remaster is a huge improvement and I enjoy it very much these days.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I still prefer the 70s Met/TuV recordings, though the 80s Met is still a worthy alternative for its extra passion.


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## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I still prefer the 70s Met/TuV recordings, though the 80s Met is still a worthy alternative for its extra passion.


I bought a newspaper today. But I can't delete a post.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 13
LP#2532016









Felix Mendelssohn, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 64;
Max Bruch, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 26
Berliner Philharmoniker
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 56:53

*Review: *Oh, my, this is EXCELLENT. Mme. Mutter plays with virtuosity, but not overdoing it as sometimes she can. Everything is well modulated, and some of her work is truly exceptional, such as the finale of the Bruch concerto (18:30 in the appended Bruch video). The BPO provides excellent backup - precise plucks in the pizzicato sections, real power in the crescendos, always complementing and never overwhelming the solo. Sound quality is excellent. Records like this remind you of why ASM became a star. I wish she played with the same combo of fire and restraint today.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 14
LP#2532030









Dmitri Shostakovich, Symphony No. 10, op. 93
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, February 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 51:43

*Review: *A truly splendid recording with deep bass tones, detailed, glittering highs, and very wide dynamic range from soft (but still clear) to loud (with no distortion). The second movement in particular is really exciting. This is quite a bit clearer than the 1960s rendition by HVK/BPO, and represents a solid upgrade with no sacrifice in terms of performance. It also compares very well to the 2019 Michael Sanderling/Dresdner Philharmoniker recording I own. It really is competitive in terms of audio quality, even to a recent digital recording. Highly recommended.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 15
LP#2532029








Carl Nielsen, Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable" op. 29
Berliner Philharmoniker
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, February 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
REcording PRoducer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 38:25

*Review: *In forte passages, this is absolutely top notch. I think the dynamic range is exaggerated here, though. Piano passages require adjusting volume - a big no-no for my estimation of a recording. Of my two alternative recordings, Kuchar/Janacek Philharmonic is not so challenging to hear while listening; Davis/LSO is close but still is slightly easier to listen to. I understand that this level of dynamic range in volume is something that a live orchestra can achieve, but DG's engineers just went too far with it. Another annoying aspect of this recording is that the symphony is divided into two long tracks, despite there being 4 movements. Anyway, when you can hear it, it's fantastic. The level of detail and the depth of bass tones is excellent, and there is no noise whatsoever.

*Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## Varick

MatthewWeflen: I just want to thank you for this hurculean task. It is enjoyable to read your reviews and I get a lot out of them. Keep up the great work!

V


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## Knorf

Karajan's Nielsen 4 is not highly rated by me. The orchestral sound is glorious, and it's not rubbish by any means, but I think Karajan really just did not understand Nielsen. In short, for me Karajan tries to make it too Tchaikovskian, which simply does not work.


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## MatthewWeflen

Varick said:


> MatthewWeflen: I just want to thank you for this hurculean task. It is enjoyable to read your reviews and I get a lot out of them. Keep up the great work!
> 
> V


Your appreciation is appreciated


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## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> Karajan's Nielsen 4 is not highly rated by me. The orchestral sound is glorious, and it's not rubbish by any means, but I think Karajan really just did not understand Nielsen. In short, for me Karajan tries to make it too Tchaikovskian, which simply does not work.


I can see that. This isn't my go-to, either. I guess I prefer a more Sibelian Nielsen?


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 16
LP#2532028








Mozart, Great Mass in C minor, K427
Berliner Philharmoniker
Barbara Hendricks & Janet Perry, sopranos
Peter Schreier, tenor
Benjamin Luxon, bass
Wiener Singverein, chorus*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, February 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 59:23

*Review: *As repertoire goes, this is not in my regular rotation, but there are some wonderful moments. I've certainly heard the Qui tollis section before (at 20:00 in the appended video), and this is a powerful version. The orchestra is well modulated with the chorus. The sound is very clear, with no noise and deep bass tones. If this kind of stuff is your bag, I have a hard time seeing how thie recording would fail you.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 17
LP#2532062









Bruckner, Symphony No. 1 (1865/66 "Linz" version)
Berliner Philharmoniker*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 50:54

*Review: *I love Bruckner's first symphony. I think it's immediately accessible, but still "Brucknerian" in the highest degree. It's sort of the prototype for all of his following symphonies - majestic Allegro; spiritual Adagio; menacing Scherzo; pounding, majestic Finale. I rate it higher than most, up with some of the later symphonies.

The sound here is terrific. Good dynamic range from soft to loud, beautiful extension into the bass region, great detail in the mid range and high tones. It is easy to pick out instrument groups, and the sound overall is enveloping. This is Bruckner to get lost in, and at no point does any noise or digital crunchiness intrude, despite this being an early digital recording.

The late 70s/early 80s HVK/BPO Bruckner cycle comes to a close with this release. As a unit, it is majestic, Olympian Bruckner played and recorded at an extremely high level of technical proficiency. There are those who will say that the "final" HVK/VPO recordings to come are more soulful. Be that as it may, this is one of HVK/BPO's signature achievements (along with their R. Strauss, Beethoven and Tchaikovsky cycles). There are of course, other totally valid Bruckners to be had. But I feel like this one is a must-own. If you're in the market for it but aren't an insane person like myself who wants to buy all three decade boxes (a tough proposition at this point, as they seem to be out of print and going for $300-plus in the aftermarket), I highly recommend the currently in print 9CD Bruckner set which includes the hi-res Blu-Ray Audio. The remastering is sterling and the Blu-Ray disc presents it in its utmost quality at 192k/24b.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


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## Knorf

Yep, that's a very great Bruckner 1, a symphony I too rate highly, and one of my favorites in the Karajan cycle.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 18
LP#2532019









Gustav Holst, The Planets op. 32
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
RIAS Kammerchor, choir*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 52:02

*Review: *This recording is widely reviled, and I can't really put my finger on why. I think it has just been settled on as the prototype for why "80s Karajan is bad." As far as my recordings go, I can compare it to HVK/VPO from the 60s, as well as to Levine/CSO, Colin Davis/LSO, Andrew Davis/BBC Philharmonic.

The word that comes to mind for me as I listen to it is "middling." It's middle of the road as far as tempo. It's also middle of the road in terms of intensity. But it's not bad! The recorded sound is really excellent, on a par with modern digital recordings. There is a ton of detail, and bass tones are really good. While the "Mars" is relatively intense, the playing elsewhere is a tad sluggish (especially in the Jupiter theme). HVK/VPO is careening, chaotic and unsettling in the Mars, and mystical and evanescent in the Uranus. Levine/CSO is crisp and powerful. This recording is somewhere in between the Levine and the Colin Davis, which is turgid. I keep thinking things like "this is not as [X] as [Y]" (e.g. The Mars is not as booming as Levine. The Uranus is not as ethereal as HVK/VPO. The Jupiter is not as noble as Davis/BBC). So... middling.

When it comes down to it, I wouldn't recommend seeking this out as an individual recording (Levine/CSO and HVK/VPO would be my twin recommendations). But if you got it in a set, it wouldn't be bad by any stretch. It's kind of a "meh" performance in great sound (soooo.... Rattle-esque?). As I listen to it, I enjoy it on a superficial level, but it doesn't particularly move me.

*Rating: 7/10*

*Video:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 17
LP#2532031









Mozart, Serenade No. 13 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik," K525
Grieg, From Holberg's Time op. 40
Prokofiev, Symphony No. 1 "Classical" op. 25
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January-February 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Günter Breest, Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 52:03

*Review:* Is this a bit of a grab bag? Sure. I guess the pieces are united by being classical period and referencing the classical period? But I'll be darned if they're not sumptuously played and recorded. This is an album that consistently pleases, without going overboard stylistically (as the Opera Intermezzi collection did for me).

The Mozart is probably HVK/BPO's best. It's big band but crisp, and the recorded sound is razor sharp and clear, with excellent delineation of instruments and wondrous tonal range from low to high. I personally love Eine kleine Nachtmusik. I think it's the rare piece that is instantly catchy and hummable, but still deep enough to reward many listens. I basically never tire of it. This recording surpasses the 60s rendition in both interpretation and recorded sound.

The Grieg is typical of HVK/BPO's treatment of his ouvre - Sibelian and beauteous. An enjoyable listen.

The Prokofiev is quite good, but I do find the piano passages to be too soft, requiring annoying volume adjustments. It's also a little fast for my taste. I prefer Ozawa's slower take with the BPO.
*
Rating: 9/10*

*Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 18
LP#2532045









Camille Saint-Saens, Symphony No. 3 "Organ" op. 78
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Pierre Cochereau, organ*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 38:06

*Review: *The first three movements of this symphony are played thrillingly, with a real drive and pulse. Whether this is the best approach for the music is not something I'm really equipped to adjudicate - my other recording is Munch/BSO and it doesn't seem to me any more pastoral. The third movement in particular is exciting, with lovely percussion. Apparently, the organ part was played on the organ of the Notre Dame cathedral in Paris and edited in digitally. While it sounds fairly good as a background instrument in the 2nd movement, it sounds pretty horrid in its big moment in the 4th movement, kind of like digital noise or static. Either it was played too loud for the recording equipment of the day to capture, or it was a mixing issue. It's a real shame, because the preceding three movements were so excellent. It knocks down my overall rating considerably. The Munch recording is preferable.

*Rating: 6/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 21
LP#2741015









Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 93; Symphony No. 94 "Surprise"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981, January 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 48:47

*Review:* 93 starts out a bit flabby sounding (most of the London symphonies have a slow opening) but things generally clear up texturally once the Allegro assai starts up in earnest. The second movement is really lovely, and the finale is brisk and exciting. Overall, there does seem to be a heavier sound compared to the Paris symphonies in this number. I wonder if some parts have been doubled.

94 is a bit clearer, and the famous "surprise" in the second movement enjoys an effective transition from piano to forte (listen from about 10:00 in the appended video). There are times when the horns sound a bit crackly in the digital mix in louder passages of the 3rd and 4th movements.

Overall, something about this disc just doesn't quite reach the heights that the Paris symphonies seemed to. What that said, these performances are still recorded in better sound than my Adam Fischer complete set (which is nonetheless very nice).

*Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

Sorry for the delay, but my evenings have been occupied by a certain other attention vacuum for the last week.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 22
LP#2741015









Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 95; Symphony No. 96 "The Miracle"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 47:05

*Review: *95 is wonderful. The 3rd movement especially has an incredible cello solo, punctuated by great drums and pizzicato strings (listen at 16:15 in the appended video). The finale also has some lovely woodwind and contrabass playing, it's a really enveloping "big band" sound that retains Haydn's fleetness.

96 has a radiant sound that shows off the best of what HVK and BPO can do. Strings are luscious but do not overpower woodwinds or brass. Things turn from quiet to loud on a dime but require no volume adjustments by the listener. The percussion especially deserves note - it really anchors the proceedings beautifully.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 23
LP#2741015









Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 97; Symphony No. 98
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 58:39

*Review:* 97 starts out a bit flabby in the bass region for me, a little over emphasized, and doesn't totally recover from that impression (7:30 in the appended video us a good example of bass tones drowning out higher frequency info). With all that said, the finale is amazing.

98 is really good. The third movement seems like the prototypical Haydn Menuetto. The conclusion especially is really light and brisk. There's a really cool little violin solo near the end of the finale that is extremely pleasing to listen to (Starting around 26:02 in the appended video). 
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> Sorry for the delay, but my evenings have been occupied by a certain other attention vacuum for the last week.


Don't go too fast, I don't want this thread to end!!!!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Don't go too fast, I don't want this thread to end!!!!


Maybe I'll dive into some EMI afterwards.

The problem is that it seems pandemic pricing has struck classical box sets in a big way. I got the DG 60s and 70s sets right before they exploded in price. The Warner 101 disc set has already done so.


----------



## BachIsBest

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 22
> LP#2741015
> 
> View attachment 145616
> 
> 
> Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 95; Symphony No. 96 "The Miracle"
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Werner Mayer
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 47:05
> 
> *Review: *95 is wonderful. The 3rd movement especially has an incredible cello solo, punctuated by great drums and pizzicato strings (listen at 16:15 in the appended video). The finale also has some lovely woodwind and contrabass playing, it's a really enveloping "big band" sound that retains Haydn's fleetness.
> 
> 96 has a radiant sound that shows off the best of what HVK and BPO can do. Strings are luscious but do not overpower woodwinds or brass. Things turn from quiet to loud on a dime but require no volume adjustments by the listener. The percussion especially deserves note - it really anchors the proceedings beautifully.
> *
> Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Fun fact: Haydn's symphony No. 95 was the other piece played at the premiere of Mahler's 9th symphony.

I also love this symphony and consider it a tad underrated compared to some of the later London symphonies.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 24
LP#2741015









Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 99; Symphony No. 100 "Military"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, January 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 56:56

*Review: *Again, things start out sounding a little congested in the slow portions of the first movements. But once things perk up, this is a lively and rich recording. Pizzicato passages are especially well represented. The percussion in the finale of the Military is exemplary. Comparing this to the Adam Fischer complete symphony set I own as an alternative, this has better sound with less occluding reverb, and the strings are obviously modern compared to Fischer's period approach. I think this is preferable, if not perfect. You certainly aren't being ill served if you own these recordings through the "Symphony Edition."

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 25
LP#2741015









Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 101 "Die Uhr"; Symphony No. 102 
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 58:29
*
Review: *I'm starting to see the pattern. Haydn symphonies recorded in 1982 seem to suffer from minor issues of crowded mixes and overpowering bass. Those recorded in 1980 and 1981 are lighter and airier. This recording is one of the latter. "The Clock" may well be the most quintessential late Haydn symphony as far as form and tone go. It is brisk and sumptuously beautiful. The BPO strings are in their full glory here, and well mixed with other orchestral parts. The clarinet part in the 2nd movement Andante provides a wonderful counterpoint to the strings and pizzicato cellos. It's just the height of Haydn-ic beauty and order. 102 is blissful as well. This recording once again reaches the heights of the Paris symphony releases.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## Knorf

I see that there is a box of the Karajan/Berliner Phil.'s Haydn Paris and London Symphonies. MatthewWeflen, you've 9/10ths convinced me to get it...


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> I see that there is a box of the Karajan/Berliner Phil.'s Haydn Paris and London Symphonies. MatthewWeflen, you've 9/10ths convinced me to get it...


It's totally worth it. I see at as low as $30 new online. It's HVK's Porsche 911 Haydn. The BPO purrs like a high performance machine. On good equipment it's really pleasing. I consistently like it better than my Fischer Haydn set, which I still think it quite good.

The only real question is whether you already have all or most of the Karajan Symphony edition. Presto Classical has that for $51.50 at present, and that gets you Beethoven (77), Brahms (78), Bruckner (70s/80s), Haydn (81-82), Mendelssohn (71-72), Mozart (60s and 70s), Schumann (70s), and Tchaikovsky (70s).








https://www.tellerreport.com/sports...e-that-made-von-karajan-happy.H1-15TNh9L.html


----------



## Malx

MatthewWeflen said:


> It's totally worth it. I see at as low as $30 new online. It's HVK's Porsche 911 Haydn. The BPO purrs like a high performance machine. On good equipment it's really pleasing. I consistently like it better than my Fischer Haydn set, which I still think it quite good.
> 
> The only real question is whether you already have all or most of the Karajan Symphony edition. Presto Classical has that for $51.50 at present, and that gets you Beethoven (77), Brahms (78), Bruckner (70s/80s), Haydn (81-82), Mendelssohn (71-72), Mozart (60s and 70s), Schumann (70s), and Tchaikovsky (70s).
> 
> View attachment 146087
> 
> https://www.tellerreport.com/sports...e-that-made-von-karajan-happy.H1-15TNh9L.html


I have been considering that Karajan Symphony edition - may I ask how good is the mastering on those discs, does it compare reasonably well with the latest sets?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Malx said:


> I have been considering that Karajan Symphony edition - may I ask how good is the mastering on those discs, does it compare reasonably well with the latest sets?
> Thanks in advance.


Long answer: Before I got the decade boxes, I had the Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn and Brahms sets as separate individual purchases. They all sounded great, and I do not think I could distinguish them in blind A/B testing. The 70s Brahms is thick and crowded, and it sounds that way in both its separate release and the 70s box. The other three are superb by any measure.

The set that has seen some audibly different mastering is the Beethoven 77. I owned the Eloquence set, which is mastered for Dolby Surround, whereas I think the one in the box is the prior 80s mastering, which is also in the decade box. Long story short, the surround mastering has a bit more reverb/ambience, but both sound great. One is just a bit drier.

Haydn, as far as I know, has and will always sound the same because it is a 44k/16b digital recording. I have only ever had the 80s box as a source for it.

Short answer: They all sound varying degrees of great, and buying this set in the low $50 range is an astounding deal. The Bruckner box alone often retails between $40 and $50.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 26
LP#2741015









Franz Joseph Haydn, Symphony No. 103 "Drum Roll"; Symphony No. 104 "London"
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981 (103), January 1982 (104)
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 62:49

*Review: *This, the last of the DG Haydn symphonies, shares basically all the features of the London recordings. 1981 recordings are lighter, 1982 recordings are heavier. The brisk parts of 103 recall the heights of the Paris recordings from 1980. Bass tones and string attacks marry very well, making for a very engaging, toe-tapping listen. As far as 104 goes, I would say that it's the best of the Londons recorded in 1982. The Menuetto especially has a lightness that some of the other Londons lacked. The finale's brisk conclusion is really lovely in the best tradition of high-octane HVK/BPO.

As a whole, comparing both the Paris and London sets to my Adam Fischer complete cycle, the sound here is better across the board, even in the Londons. There is far less reverb and the mixes are less crowded. There is a greater sense of air and space. HVK/BPO uses modern instruments while Fischer goes for period strings with less vibrato.

As a set, I would give them a 9 across the board, which is what I also give this particular platter. The sound is almost competitive with modern digital, and surpasses the level of 60s HVK/BPO's analog recordings.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Malx

MatthewWeflen said:


> Long answer: Before I got the decade boxes, I had the Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn and Brahms sets as separate individual purchases. They all sounded great, and I do not think I could distinguish them in blind A/B testing. The 70s Brahms is thick and crowded, and it sounds that way in both its separate release and the 70s box. The other three are superb by any measure.
> 
> The set that has seen some audibly different mastering is the Beethoven 77. I owned the Eloquence set, which is mastered for Dolby Surround, whereas I think the one in the box is the prior 80s mastering, which is also in the decade box. Long story short, the surround mastering has a bit more reverb/ambience, but both sound great. One is just a bit drier.
> 
> Haydn, as far as I know, has and will always sound the same because it is a 44k/16b digital recording. I have only ever had the 80s box as a source for it.
> 
> Short answer: They all sound varying degrees of great, and buying this set in the low $50 range is an astounding deal. The Bruckner box alone often retails between $40 and $50.


Thanks for the response Matthew - some serious sampling via Qobuz looks on the cards.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Malx said:


> Thanks for the response Matthew - some serious sampling via Qobuz looks on the cards.


It looks like the box set deal extends through January 11.


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## JAS

I will likely never buy the big set since I have neither the spare change nor the spare shelf space. I have quite a few of the individual releases in their original form, so there would be a lot of duplication anyway. I am satisfied in reading your review about the set.


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## MatthewWeflen

JAS said:


> I will likely never buy the big set since I have neither the spare change nor the spare shelf space. I have quite a few of the individual releases in their original form, so there would be a lot of duplication anyway. I am satisfied in reading your review about the set.


I think the big boxes are a luxury, to be sure, and they are priced out of reach right now. I wanted a big quarantine project, and I got in for each before they exploded ($200 apiece for 60s and 70s, $160 for 80s).

The Symphony Edition box mentioned above contains 38 discs in a very small package. If I were advising someone on getting "the essential HVK/BPO," I would direct them to: 
-Symphony Edition
-R. Strauss Orchestral Works
-Second Vienna School 3cd set
-HVK/BPO 8cd box (which includes Honegger/Prokofiev/Mahler9)
-Warner Sibelius set (EMI recordings).

There are still odds and ends you'd miss of course, but the above would give you a huge chunk of the best, both in terms of repertoire and in terms of HVK/BPO's take on it. And you could get away for about $130 total brand new.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7977698--karajan-symphony-edition
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8001721--richard-strauss-orchestral-works
https://www.amazon.com/Herbert-von-Karajan-Classic-Albums/dp/B00KOEQTD4/
https://www.amazon.com/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Berliner-Philharmoniker/dp/B06W59KZVN/
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8041964--sibelius-1976-1981


----------



## Malx

MatthewWeflen said:


> I think the big boxes are a luxury, to be sure, and they are priced out of reach right now. I wanted a big quarantine project, and I got in for each before they exploded ($200 apiece for 60s and 70s, $160 for 80s).
> 
> The Symphony Edition box mentioned above contains 38 discs in a very small package. If I were advising someone on getting "the essential HVK/BPO," I would direct them to:
> -Symphony Edition
> -R. Strauss Orchestral Works
> -Second Vienna School 3cd set
> -HVK/BPO 8cd box (which includes Honegger/Prokofiev/Mahler9)
> -Warner Sibelius set (EMI recordings).
> 
> There are still odds and ends you'd miss of course, but the above would give you a huge chunk of the best, both in terms of repertoire and in terms of HVK/BPO's take on it. And you could get away for about $130 total brand new.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7977698--karajan-symphony-edition
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8001721--richard-strauss-orchestral-works
> https://www.amazon.com/Herbert-von-Karajan-Classic-Albums/dp/B00KOEQTD4/
> https://www.amazon.com/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Berliner-Philharmoniker/dp/B06W59KZVN/
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8041964--sibelius-1976-1981


It's hard to argue with that selection of discs/sets - I would respectfully add the studio ring cycle that is now available for a reasonable price.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 27
LP#2532032









Brahms, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 77
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 40:23

*Review: *I've got to say, I've turned around on this HVK/ASM/BPO collaboration. After reviewing the BPO/Christian Ferras version from the 60s, I was of the opinion that that version was decisively superior. I now don't really land there. They're just different. The sound of the 60s rendition is much more "hall oriented," by which I mean that the violin solo integrates better with the orchestra, and the overall reverb is more pronounced, making for a somewhat more distant sound. This digital rendition is much more "in your face." ASM is miked much closer, and the orchestra textures are clearer, louder, and a bit drier. But it provides many thrills and a good deal of pleasure. I cannot go back and edit the prior review, but I would probably bump it up to what I've given this, which is a 9. I still think the violin part is a tad squeaky in parts, but that's the nature of the beast when it comes to violin solo work.

*Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 28
LP#2532043









Schumann, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, op. 54
Grieg, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, op. 16
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Krystian Zimerman, piano*

Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 63:55

*Review:* I do not own either of these pieces in an alternative version. As I've said before, buying a box set like this exposes me to new repertoire, and I have to decide whether I find it worthwhile and convincing, and whether I need to seek out an alternative. These pieces are certainly worthwhile, and I must say that I find these renditions convincing. Zimerman's piano playing is both technically proficient and emotionally expressive. The BPO is well modulated behind him, and their sound melds together beautifully. The level of detail is great, while the depth of sound from bass tones up to treble peaks is also excellent. I can't really imagine much in the way of criticism for this one. I have seen reviews stating that the tempii are somewhat slow compared to the average. I can't say that for my part I was ever bored or found these renditions to be lagging. I suppose it's very broad and beauteous.
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Handelian

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 28
> LP#2532043
> 
> View attachment 146339
> 
> 
> Schumann, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, op. 54
> Grieg, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, op. 16
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Krystian Zimerman, piano*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 63:55
> 
> *Review:* I do not own either of these pieces in an alternative version. As I've said before, buying a box set like this exposes me to new repertoire, and I have to decide whether I find it worthwhile and convincing, and whether I need to seek out an alternative. These pieces are certainly worthwhile, and I must say that I find these renditions convincing. Zimerman's piano playing is both technically proficient and emotionally expressive. The BPO is well modulated behind him, and their sound melds together beautifully. The level of detail is great, while the depth of sound from bass tones up to treble peaks is also excellent. I can't really imagine much in the way of criticism for this one. I have seen reviews stating that the tempii are somewhat slow compared to the average. I can't say that for my part I was ever bored or found these renditions to be lagging. I suppose it's very broad and beauteous.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


Excellent performances. The critics didn't like them but what do they know?


----------



## Axter

^ Absolutely love this recording. One of my favs.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Handelian said:


> Excellent performances. The critics didn't like them but what do they know?


Yeah, Gramophone calls it a "high class failure." I have a hard time hearing it as such. I can hear why the 80s Planets is not terribly successful. But this?

FWIW, BBC3 lists it as an "also recommended" choice in their "building a library" series. So I wonder if there was just some critical backlash around the time of this recording.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 29-30
LP#2741017









Haydn, Die Schöpfung, Hob:XXI 2(1)
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Edith Mathis, soprano
Francisco Araiza, tenor
Jose van Dam, bass
Ann Murray, contralto*

Recorded live at Salzburg Festival, Grosses Festspielhaus, August 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:54:28

*Review:* OK, first of all, the sound quality here is really great for a live recording. I had no idea it was live while I listened, which says a lot. Now, with that said, the obvious comparison here is with the 1968 studio recording in the Jesus Christus Kirche. Not to take away from this live recording or the singers (who do very good work), but that one is still the preferred choice. The sound on the orchestra here is just somewhat drier and a bit less involving by comparison. The JCK is more resonant and the bass tones lend a really lovely floor to the recording, which still has the level of detail and lack of noise necessary to sound great on modern equipment. My understanding is that this recording is somewhat reviled. I can't really see that as being reasonable. It's fine. It's just not the one to pick up if you're looking for Karajan's take on Die Schöpfung.

*Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## Handelian

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 29-30
> LP#2741017
> 
> View attachment 146450
> 
> 
> Haydn, Die Schöpfung, Hob:XXI 2(1)
> Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Wiener Singverein, chorus
> Edith Mathis, soprano
> Francisco Araiza, tenor
> Jose van Dam, bass
> Ann Murray, contralto*
> 
> Recorded live at Salzburg Festival, Grosses Festspielhaus, August 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Werner Mayer
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 1:54:28
> 
> *Review:* OK, first of all, the sound quality here is really great for a live recording. I had no idea it was live while I listened, which says a lot. Now, with that said, the obvious comparison here is with the 1968 studio recording in the Jesus Christus Kirche. Not to take away from this live recording or the singers (who do very good work), but that one is still the preferred choice. The sound on the orchestra here is just somewhat drier and a bit less involving by comparison. The JCK is more resonant and the bass tones lens a really lovely floor to the recording, which still has the level of detail and lack of noise necessary to sound great on modern equipment. My understanding is that this recording is somewhat reviled. I can't really see that as being reasonable. It's fine. It's just not the one to pick up if you're looking for Karajan's take on Die Schöpfung.
> 
> *Rating: 8/10
> 
> Video:*


Unfortunately not quite as good as the Karajan studio which is a classic.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 31
LP#2532068









Grieg, Peer Gynt Suite No. 1, op. 46 & Suite No. 2, op. 55
Sibelius, Pelléas et Mélisande Suite, op. 46
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, January & February 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:48

*Review: *Well, to begin with, it must be said that there are some amazing sounds on this recording. The Morgenstimmung of Peer Gynt Suite No. 1 is rapturously beautiful. The Arabian Dance in Peer Gynt Suite No. 2 has a drum sound that rumbles deeper than almost anything in my collection (5:00 in the appended video, but you must be listening on good headphones or on a sound system with a subwoofer). The opening "Castle Gate" movement of the Pelléas is just resplendent in its sonority. Mélisandes Tod is also played with great feeling. On the whole disc, the BPO is playing with especial brilliance and depth.

I also love this cover. It's a beautiful piece of 80s art that perfectly fits the tone of the music within.

Compared to the 1970s Grieg disc (which contains Grieg's Sigurd Jorsalfar instead of the Sibelius), the sonic quality is higher and the playing is at the same level. Both are worthy additions to a collection because of the "B side." As far as I know, each is the only time HVK recorded them with the BPO, whether on EMI or DG.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## Handelian

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 31
> LP#2532068
> 
> View attachment 146485
> 
> 
> Grieg, Peer Gynt Suite No. 1, op. 46 & Suite No. 2, op. 55
> Sibelius, Pelléas et Mélisande Suite, op. 46
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, January & February 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 64:48
> 
> *Review: *Well, to begin with, it must be said that there are some amazing sounds on this recording. The Morgenstimmung of Peer Gynt Suite No. 1 is rapturously beautiful. The Arabian Dance in Peer Gynt Suite No. 2 has a drum sound that rumbles deeper than almost anything in my collection (5:00 in the appended video, but you must be listening on good headphones or on a sound system with a subwoofer). The opening "Castle Gate" movement of the Pelléas is just resplendent in its sonority. Mélisandes Tod is also played with great feeling. On the whole disc, the BPO is playing with especial brilliance and depth.
> 
> I also love this cover. It's a beautiful piece of 80s art that perfectly fits the tone of the music within.
> 
> Compared to the 1970s Grieg disc (which contains Grieg's Sigurd Jorsalfar instead of the Sibelius), the sonic quality is higher and the playing is at the same level. Both are worthy additions to a collection because of the "B side." As far as I know, each is the only time HVK recorded them with the BPO, whether on EMI or DG.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


This is very special


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Handelian said:


> This is very special


Which piece/pieces in particular?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 32
LP#4139331/361









Beethoven Symphony No. 5, op. 67; Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral" op. 68
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, November 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:57

*Review: *We have arrived at the much maligned digital Beethoven cycle, beginning in this case with symphonies 5 and 6. I have been studiously avoiding Beethoven since the 70s cycle, which admittedly has not been that long in my own listening time (the gap was 5 years in real time). Coming to them fresh, they are not bad by any means, though I have some criticisms. In Symphony 5, my main criticism is in terms of sound field - the brass and strings drown out some orchestral parts, specifically the brass covering the strings in movement 2, and the piccolo being almost completely drowned out in the finale of movement 4 (~28:58 in the appended video). The overall recorded sound is still quite good, perhaps not as smooth and luscious as 77, but still pleasing (and more pleasing that 63, in my opinion).

Symphony 6 has what I consider a relatively big problem in the second movement. This "scene by the brook" sounds more like "rushing to get home and not even looking over at the brook." (9:10 in the appended video) The movement is a full minute faster than HVK/BPO's previous two disc-based takes (and 1.5 minutes faster than the Philharmonia transit). It's just too fast, and lacks to some degree (but not wholly) the lilting beauty of the other renditions. The playing is fine, don't get me wrong, especially in the woodwinds and the string accents. The storm is pretty good, but lacks the intensity of the 77, especially in percussion (I will admit to being a percussion fiend in this movement).

Overall, you would not be suffering horribly with this rendition. It's good, even very good in spots. It's certainly better than some of my alternative cycles (I'm looking at you, Lenny...)But if you're after Karajan's Beethoven, my pick for the 5th would be 63 or 77, and the 6th would be 77 by a mile. So when both pieces are eclipsed by prior efforts, the question simply becomes "why?" And the answer being "because we could record it digitally" is not sufficient. I would give the 5th an 8/10 and the 6th a 7/10.

For what it's worth, I like the covers. They're eye catching with good typography.

*Rating: 7/10

Videos:
*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 33-34
CD#4390242 (No LP release)









Mahler, Symphony No. 9
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded live at the Berlin Festival, Philharmonie, September 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:24:46

*Review: *I have stipulated many times to just not "getting" Mahler. This recording, which is lauded, has not changed that. I still don't get Mahler. At least 4 times during this "symphony" I thought, "Great! That's it! Good conclusion, Gustav..." only to look at my player and see that there were so many more minutes to go.

With that said, the sound here, and the playing, are splendid. I would say the Adagio is certainly the highlight, with intense, beautiful playing, wonderfully layered from rumbling percussion up to the lightest strings. It's easy to see why, for people who "get" Mahler, that this would be a landmark recording. I give it a 9, because it's still not my cup of tea. The other Mahler 9s I can compare it to are Karajan's own studio recording a mere 2 years prior, and Carlo Maria Giulini's account with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1976 (which has stupendous sound on its own). I can't really say that any of the three performances surpass the others. They're all good. For Mahler, anyway.

I will say, one thing I strongly dislike is the way the tracks are arranged on this disc, with a new track number corresponding to each tempo change, as opposed to each "movement." 4 tracks are much more appealing psychologically than 30.

*Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

Excellent stuff all-round Matthew!

Just to say that I've now been listening to Karajan's Haydn with the same gusto as with my regular go-tos (Pinnock, Fischer & Antonini). 

I normally have no time for Peer Gynt (over-played by a well-meaning teacher in my schooldays), but you've really whetted my appetite!

K's digital LvB is never far from my turntable and the M9 gets an airing most months. Totally agree with you about the tracks on the M9 - has the same effect on me.

Oh, and coincidentally, I'm a recent recruit to the Grieg pc.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Excellent stuff all-round Matthew!
> 
> Just to say that I've now been listening to Karajan's Haydn with the same gusto as with my regular go-tos (Pinnock, Fischer & Antonini).
> 
> I normally have no time for Peer Gynt (over-played by a well-meaning teacher in my schooldays), but you've really whetted my appetite!
> 
> K's digital LvB is never far from my turntable and the M9 gets an airing most months. Totally agree with you about the tracks on the M9 - has the same effect on me.
> 
> Oh, and coincidentally, I'm a recent recruit to the Grieg pc.


If you're in a Grieg exploration mood, give this a try:






As far as Karajan's digital Beethoven, the 3rd and 8th are top flight. The rest are more middling, but not bad by any reasonable estimate.


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> If you're in a Grieg exploration mood, give this a try:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as Karajan's digital Beethoven, the 3rd and 8th are top flight. The rest are more middling, but not bad by any reasonable estimate.


Thanks for the vc suggestions, maybe something to stream.

Regarding the K digital Beethoven, I would say his 21st - 23rd January 1984 digital Eroica is his finest. I also like the 6th from this period ......


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

On the whole, I’d say that live Mahler 9 is probably Karajan’s greatest recording, even though I still like Barbirolli’s versions better.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Interesting insight into the genius of Karajan (and views on Barbirolli and Bernstein as guest conductors to the BPO) from an interview with Leon Spierer who was the Concertmaster of the BPO (and senior to the great Michel Schwalbe) from 1963 to 1993.

https://www.violinist.com/discussion/archive/19406/


----------



## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> On the whole, I'd say that live Mahler 9 is probably Karajan's greatest recording, even though I still like Barbirolli's versions better.


Would a kind administrator please delete this post. Better not let _me_ do it in case I originally posted something, malicious, scandalous, vexatious, libellous, or otherwise actionable (can't take chances with these things - one errant post and the whole site could be closed with many of us going to prison).


----------



## HenryPenfold

HenryPenfold said:


> Interesting insight into the genius of Karajan (and views on Barbirolli and Bernstein as guest conductors to the BPO) from an interview with Leon Spierer who was the Concertmaster of the BPO (and senior to the great Michel Schwalbe) from 1963 to 1993.
> 
> https://www.violinist.com/discussion/archive/19406/[/QUOTEThat's a real tough choice between those two.
> 
> I adore Rattle's BPO 9 too (I'll get me hat and coat!)
> 
> Plse 'scute slightly, off top.


----------



## Heck148

HenryPenfold said:


> HenryPenfold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting insight into the genius of Karajan (and views on Barbirolli and Bernstein as guest conductors to the BPO) from an interview with Leon Spierer who was the Concertmaster of the BPO.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting interview....esp regarding Sabine Meyer's playing....
Click to expand...


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

HenryPenfold said:


> Would a kind administrator please delete this post. Better not let _me_ do it in case I originally posted something, malicious, scandalous, vexatious, libellous, or otherwise actionable (can't take chances with these things - one errant post and the whole site could be closed with many of us going to prison).


Huh? I'm assuming you meant one of your posts


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 35
LP#2532096









Tchaikovsky, Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture
The Nutcracker Suite op 71a
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1982
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 44:08
*
Review:* Here is some Tchaikovsky that was previously recorded way back in the 60s by HVK/BPO. The digital sound captured in the Philharmonie is more detailed and wider from high to low tones than the analog sound of the 60s JCK. So that's a welcome thing in and of itself. To be fair to the 60s recording, the love theme is played with the slightest bit more intensity in that recording. Now, the Nutcracker is a hoary old chestnut, to be sure. But the music is certainly charming, and it's well played, Particularly impressive are the triangles and the pizzicato strings.

The highlight of the disc is the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture. Apparently, Tchaikovsky was inspired a great deal by Shakespeare, writing standalone pieces for this, The Tempest, and Hamlet. I wish HVK/BPO had laid those down as well, but what we have here is quite excellent. Comparing it to the mid-90s DG Michael Pletnev box set I own as an alternative, the recorded sound of the BPO is better despite the older vintage, and the tempo is about 3 minutes slower and broader. I prefer the HVK/BPO rendition, because the love theme demands that sort of sweep and drama.

Overall, I would give the Overture a 10 and the Nutcracker an 8. This is a quite well done digital update to the old recording, plus you don't get the yucky 1812 Overture on the same disc. As an aside, I think this cover is rubbish. Clearly a designer had an idea, and clearly it failed. It reuses old HVK photos and arranges them in a pattern, in brown. Yuck. 
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Handelian

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 35
> LP#2532096
> 
> View attachment 146755
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture
> The Nutcracker Suite op 71a
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 44:08
> *
> Review:* Here is some Tchaikovsky that was previously unrecorded way back in the 60s by HVK/BPO. The digital sound captured in the Philharmonie is more detailed and wider from high to low tones than the analog sound of the 60s JCK. So that's a welcome thing in and of itself. To be fair to the 60s recording, the love theme is played with the slightest bit more intensity in that recording. Now, the Nutcracker is a hoary old chestnut, to be sure. But the music is certainly charming, and it's well played, Particularly impressive are the triangles and the pizzicato strings.
> 
> The highlight of the disc is the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture. Apparently, Tchaikovsky was inspired a great deal by Shakespeare, writing standalone pieces for this, The Tempest, and Hamlet. I wish HVK/BPO had laid those down as well, but what we have here is quite excellent. Comparing it to the mid-90s DG Michael Pletnev box set I own as an alternative, the recorded sound of the BPO is better despite the older vintage, and the tempo is about 3 minutes slower and broader. I prefer the HVK/BPO rendition, because the love theme demands that sort of sweep and drama.
> 
> Overall, I would give the Overture a 10 and the Nutcracker an 8. This is a quite well done digital update to the old recording. As an aside, I think this cover is rubbish. Clearly a designer had an idea, and clearly it failed. It reuses old HVK photos and arranges them in a pattern, in brown. Yuck.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


I have a Nutcracker from Karajan and the VPO he made for Decca.


----------



## BachIsBest

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 35
> LP#2532096
> 
> View attachment 146755
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture
> The Nutcracker Suite op 71a
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 44:08
> *
> Review:* Here is some Tchaikovsky that was previously unrecorded way back in the 60s by HVK/BPO. The digital sound captured in the Philharmonie is more detailed and wider from high to low tones than the analog sound of the 60s JCK. So that's a welcome thing in and of itself. To be fair to the 60s recording, the love theme is played with the slightest bit more intensity in that recording. Now, the Nutcracker is a hoary old chestnut, to be sure. But the music is certainly charming, and it's well played, Particularly impressive are the triangles and the pizzicato strings.
> 
> The highlight of the disc is the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture. Apparently, Tchaikovsky was inspired a great deal by Shakespeare, writing standalone pieces for this, The Tempest, and Hamlet. I wish HVK/BPO had laid those down as well, but what we have here is quite excellent. Comparing it to the mid-90s DG Michael Pletnev box set I own as an alternative, the recorded sound of the BPO is better despite the older vintage, and the tempo is about 3 minutes slower and broader. I prefer the HVK/BPO rendition, because the love theme demands that sort of sweep and drama.
> 
> Overall, I would give the Overture a 10 and the Nutcracker an 8. This is a quite well done digital update to the old recording, plus you don't get the yucky 1812 Overture on the same disc. As an aside, I think this cover is rubbish. Clearly a designer had an idea, and clearly it failed. It reuses old HVK photos and arranges them in a pattern, in brown. Yuck.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


I think the cover would have worked much better if they hadn't arranged all those photos in that diagonal pattern. Maybe have a different photo for each box?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

BachIsBest said:


> I think the cover would have worked much better if they hadn't arranged all those photos in that diagonal pattern. Maybe have a different photo for each box?


If I were going to do some kind of photo montage, I would arrange the 6 unique photos across the bottom third of the cover in one horizontal line, and then have album title/artist. etc. above it in a large typeface.

Something like this (a very quick mock up without real assets or true color matching):








Personally, though, I would much rather use one large photograph and either do the traditional DG label, or arrange the text around it.









I think the original is too busy because of the diagonal arrangement of repeating photos, and the text is way too small. I want to know what's on an album from the cover.


----------



## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 32
> LP#4139331/361
> 
> View attachment 146524
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony No. 5, op. 67; Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral" op. 68
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, November 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 64:57
> 
> *Review: *We have arrived at the much maligned digital Beethoven cycle, beginning in this case with symphonies 5 and 6. I have been studiously avoiding Beethoven since the 70s cycle, which admittedly has not been that long in my own listening time (the gap was 5 years in real time). Coming to them fresh, they are not bad by any means, though I have some criticisms. In Symphony 5, my main criticism is in terms of sound field - the brass and strings drown out some orchestral parts, specifically the brass covering the strings in movement 2, and the piccolo being almost completely drowned out in the finale of movement 4 (~28:58 in the appended video). The overall recorded sound is still quite good, perhaps not as smooth and luscious as 77, but still pleasing (and more pleasing that 63, in my opinion).
> 
> Symphony 6 has what I consider a relatively big problem in the second movement. This "scene by the brook" sounds more like "rushing to get home and not even looking over at the brook." (9:10 in the appended video) The movement is a full minute faster than HVK/BPO's previous two disc-based takes (and 1.5 minutes faster than the Philharmonia transit). It's just too fast, and lacks to some degree (but not wholly) the lilting beauty of the other renditions. The playing is fine, don't get me wrong, especially in the woodwinds and the string accents. The storm is pretty good, but lacks the intensity of the 77, especially in percussion (I will admit to being a percussion fiend in this movement).
> 
> Overall, you would not be suffering horribly with this rendition. It's good, even very good in spots. It's certainly better than some of my alternative cycles (I'm looking at you, Lenny...)But if you're after Karajan's Beethoven, my pick for the 5th would be 63 or 77, and the 6th would be 77 by a mile. So when both pieces are eclipsed by prior efforts, the question simply becomes "why?" And the answer being "because we could record it digitally" is not sufficient. I would give the 5th an 8/10 and the 6th a 7/10.
> 
> For what it's worth, I like the covers. They're eye catching with good typography.
> 
> *Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos:
> *


The problem with that 80s cycle is that Glotz and Breest totally messed the recording up. I have the original discs and the balances are all over the place. Karajan got the blame for the mix but in truth he had little to do with it. He wasn't exactly busy with the orchestra, as the Sabine Meyer incident still rumbled on, but Karajan was spending more time at home in the mountains while this was being mixed and was temporarily detaching himself more from the BPO. Thankfully the weird balances and glassy recording were (largely) sorted in the Karajan Gold remasters. As far as Karajan and the Pastoral are concerned, although he never said he didn't like it there was a general understanding amongst the BPO that he always "found it a task". He never did a great 6th in the studio, for many. However, this may be because he didn't view the 6th as many did. I'm desperately looking (as I write) for an interview he did on the 70s) where he discussed the problems of the 6th and opined that it wasn't as 'sunny' as many interpreters read it. For Karajan it always had an underlying darkness to it and I think this is reflected in all his readings. There's the 'moody' 63 6th that I actually rate and the more straight-laced 77 6th but neither are that impressive. Streseman and others claim with some justification that he always did it much better live and having his Live Tokyo set and heard some bootlegs I'd agree but even that is not one I'd return to very often as an individual 6th performance. I'm not gonna add much more as I'm considering reviewing the 3 BPO studio cycles side by side.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Huh? I'm assuming you meant one of your posts


Yes, not one of yours!

I was trying to respond to your post #655 but it all went wrong!


----------



## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> On the whole, I'd say that live Mahler 9 is probably Karajan's greatest recording, even though I still like Barbirolli's versions better.


That's a real tough choice between those two.

I also like Rattle's BPO M9 (I'll get my hat and coat!)


----------



## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 32
> LP#4139331/361
> 
> View attachment 146524
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony No. 5, op. 67; Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral" op. 68
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, November 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 64:57
> 
> *Review: *
> 
> Symphony 6 has what I consider a relatively big problem in the second movement. This "scene by the brook" sounds more like "rushing to get home and not even looking over at the brook." (9:10 in the appended video) The movement is a full minute faster than HVK/BPO's previous two disc-based takes (and 1.5 minutes faster than the Philharmonia transit). It's just too fast, and lacks to some degree (but not wholly) the lilting beauty of the other renditions. The playing is fine, don't get me wrong, especially in the woodwinds and the string accents. The storm is pretty good, but lacks the intensity of the 77, especially in percussion (I will admit to being a percussion fiend in this movement).


Youre right, he did shave a minute off the 2nd movement (he did this in later performances too) but elsewhere If you look at the timings across the 6th they're remarkably consistent. The biggest difference being that in 77 he strangely takes the repeat in the 3rd movement (not something he usually did). The 85 1st movement is marginally the slowest of the 3. He'd definitely started to speed up a little in some LVB symphonies as he got older (influence of the faster conductors?) but definitely not in the 8th, which got markedly slower


----------



## HenryPenfold

ppppppppppppppppppp


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 35
> LP#2532096
> 
> View attachment 146755
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture
> The Nutcracker Suite op 71a
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1982
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 44:08
> *
> Review:* Here is some Tchaikovsky that was previously unrecorded way back in the 60s by HVK/BPO. The digital sound captured in the Philharmonie is more detailed and wider from high to low tones than the analog sound of the 60s JCK. So that's a welcome thing in and of itself. To be fair to the 60s recording, the love theme is played with the slightest bit more intensity in that recording. Now, the Nutcracker is a hoary old chestnut, to be sure. But the music is certainly charming, and it's well played, Particularly impressive are the triangles and the pizzicato strings.
> 
> The highlight of the disc is the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture. Apparently, Tchaikovsky was inspired a great deal by Shakespeare, writing standalone pieces for this, The Tempest, and Hamlet. I wish HVK/BPO had laid those down as well, but what we have here is quite excellent. Comparing it to the mid-90s DG Michael Pletnev box set I own as an alternative, the recorded sound of the BPO is better despite the older vintage, and the tempo is about 3 minutes slower and broader. I prefer the HVK/BPO rendition, because the love theme demands that sort of sweep and drama.
> 
> Overall, I would give the Overture a 10 and the Nutcracker an 8. This is a quite well done digital update to the old recording, plus you don't get the yucky 1812 Overture on the same disc. As an aside, I think this cover is rubbish. Clearly a designer had an idea, and clearly it failed. It reuses old HVK photos and arranges them in a pattern, in brown. Yuck.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karajan was such a good Tchaikovsky conductor and I would have rated these recordings 10/10 . Someone said that to be a good Sibelius conductor, you need to be a good Tchaikovsky conductor. Although I'm sure it helps, I don't have much time for theories like that.


----------



## Handelian

Merl said:


> The problem with that 80s cycle is that Glotz and Breest totally messed the recording up. I have the original discs and the balances are all over the place. Karajan got the blame for the mix but in truth he had little to do with it. He wasn't exactly busy with the orchestra, as the Sabine Meyer incident still rumbled on, but Karajan was spending more time at home in the mountains while this was being mixed and was temporarily detaching himself more from the BPO. Thankfully the weird balances and glassy recording were (largely) sorted in the Karajan Gold remasters. As far as Karajan and the Pastoral are concerned, although he never said he didn't like it there was a general understanding amongst the BPO that he always "found it a task". He never did a great 6th in the studio, for many. However, this may be because he didn't view the 6th as many did. I'm desperately looking (as I write) for an interview he did on the 70s) where he discussed the problems of the 6th and opined that it wasn't as 'sunny' as many interpreters read it. For Karajan it always had an underlying darkness to it and I think this is reflected in all his readings. There's the 'moody' 63 6th that I actually rate and the more straight-laced 77 6th but neither are that impressive. Streseman and others claim with some justification that he always did it much better live and having his Live Tokyo set and heard some bootlegs I'd agree but even that is not one I'd return to very often as an individual 6th performance. I'm not gonna add much more as I'm considering reviewing the 3 BPO studio cycles side by side.


I must disagree here. The 1950s recording of the 6th with the Philharmonia is very fine indeed and the 1977 glows. I would rate either as very good performances.


----------



## Merl

Handelian said:


> I must disagree here. The 1950s recording of the 6th with the Philharmonia is very fine indeed and the 1977 glows. I would rate either as very good performances.


I wasn't referring to the 50s Philharmonia 6th, just the BPO 6ths. If you read my review of the Philharmonia cycle I refer to the 6th and its lovely woodwind playing (if I recall}). I rate all his Pastorals including the Philharmonia 6th and his live Tokyo one too, I'd just rather listen to others in that symphony. I've got 150+ 6ths to go at in my collection so I'm not being harsh saying that others do it better, IMO. Now, if we're talki g about 7ths that's a different matter....


----------



## Handelian

Merl said:


> I wasn't referring to the 50s Philharmonia 6th, just the BPO 6ths. If you read my review of the Philharmonia cycle I refer to the 6th and its lovely woodwind playing (if I recall}). I rate all his Pastorals including the Philharmonia 6th and his live Tokyo one too, I'd just rather listen to others in that symphony. I've got 150+ 6ths to go at in my collection so I'm not being harsh saying that others do it better, IMO. Now, if we're talki g about 7ths that's a different matter....


Imo the 1977 6th is as good as any. Beautiful performance.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

HenryPenfold said:


> That's a real tough choice between those two.
> 
> I also like Rattle's BPO M9 (I'll get my hat and coat!)


I like the Rattle BPO. Not at the top of my list but good enough for my shelf.

M9 is my favorite symphony along with Beethoven 9 and Bruckner 8. Never felt the need to shorten it. 

My essential recordings list:

Barbirolli/Torino RAI SO (1960) (IDIS, Archipel)
Barbirolli/Berlin PO (1964) (EMI) 
Walter/Vienna PO (1938) (EMI, Dutton)
Karajan/Berlin PO (1982) (DG)
Klemperer/New Philharmonia Orch. (1967) (EMI)
Horenstein/London SO (1966) (Music & Arts)

And further listening:

Kondrashin/Moscow PO (1964) (Melodiya), Ancerl/Czech PO (1966) (Supraphon), Bernstein/Berlin PO (1979) (DG), Rattle/Berlin PO (2007) (EMI), Horenstein/Vienna SO (1953) (Vox), Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1969) (Philips), Walter/Columbia SO (1961) (Sony), Giulini/Chicago SO (1977) (DG), Mitropoulos (Archipel, Music & Arts, Andante), Rosbaud/SWR Symph. Baden-Baden (1954) (SWR, Andromeda, Arkadia), Karajan/Berlin PO (1980) (DG)


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 36
LP#4151211









Beethoven Symphony No. 4, op. 60; Symphony No. 7, op. 92
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, December 1983
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:51

*Review: *This platter is more successful all around than the previous in the 80s digital Beethoven cycle. Where those suffered from some mixing issues and a too fast tempo in the 6th, here the 4th and 7th are very capably presented. If this the best HVK/BPO 4th? No. I think that still goes to the '63 cycle. But it is played with clarity and precision. There are spots in the 4th movement when the brass is mixed a bit too hot - the trumpet near the end really bleats in the left channel. The 7th is better, and the digital clarity here is a big plus, elevating this recording above both the '63 and '77 into the top spot for HVK/BPO Beethoven (77's bass and reverb bloomed too much, 63 does not have the same level of detail across the orchestra). The 4th movement is the standout, soundly besting the other two recordings for clarity of all parts in the crowded "dance." It really is a marvel and is worth checking out at 26:35 in the appended video.

I'd give the 4th a seven and the 7th a ten. Owing to that 7th, this disc is the first of the 80s cycle that justifies its existence.
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> It really is a marvel and is worth checking out at 26:35 in the appended video.


Thanks I just did. That was marvelous. I've never heard the 80ies cycle 7th (_from 80ies cycle have only Eroica, 6th and 8th_).
But WAO, I clicked on 26:35 4th mvmt of the 7th as you recommended, and was amazed from the first bar. Very good performance and lively. The tempo was spot on, BPO energetic and must admit I surrender to this recording. Must check the rest of the album out.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Again, I should emphasize, I am listening to lossless FLAC CD rips on my Sony MDR-Z7 headphones from my Sony WM-1A digital audio player. So the above referenced movement doesn't sound nearly as impressive on YouTube over laptop speakers.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I like the Rattle BPO. Not at the top of my list but good enough for my shelf.
> 
> M9 is my favorite symphony along with Beethoven 9 and Bruckner 8. Never felt the need to shorten it.
> 
> My essential recordings list:
> 
> Barbirolli/Torino RAI SO (1960) (IDIS, Archipel)
> Barbirolli/Berlin PO (1964) (EMI)
> Walter/Vienna PO (1938) (EMI, Dutton)
> Karajan/Berlin PO (1982) (DG)
> Klemperer/New Philharmonia Orch. (1967) (EMI)
> Horenstein/London SO (1966) (Music & Arts)
> 
> And further listening:
> 
> Kondrashin/Moscow PO (1964) (Melodiya), Ancerl/Czech PO (1966) (Supraphon), Bernstein/Berlin PO (1979) (DG), Rattle/Berlin PO (2007) (EMI), Horenstein/Vienna SO (1953) (Vox), Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1969) (Philips), Walter/Columbia SO (1961) (Sony), Giulini/Chicago SO (1977) (DG), Mitropoulos (Archipel, Music & Arts, Andante), Rosbaud/SWR Symph. Baden-Baden (1954) (SWR, Andromeda, Arkadia), Karajan/Berlin PO (1980) (DG)


A quick final off-topic post from me .....

Karajan Live
Barbirolli
Rattle BPO
Bertini
Maderna

Probably in that order

P.S. Ive been eying up that Torino RAI 1960


----------



## HenryPenfold

Handelian said:


> I must disagree here. The 1950s recording of the 6th with the Philharmonia is very fine indeed and the 1977 glows. I would rate either as very good performances.


I agree, I'm very keen on both.

I think the Digital 6th is rather good too. IMHO, it has impressive precision in the playing although it is less 'emotional' than the 77. I particularly like the sound of the woodwinds on this recording which have an almost mystical quality in movements 3&4.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 37
LP#4135871









Bedrich Smetana, Die Moldau (Vltava)
Franz Liszt, Les Preludes, S97
Carl Maria von Weber, Afforderung zum Tanz, op. 65
Liszt, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 5 S359
Rossini, William Tell Overture
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: not available
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:32
*
Review:* This is a grab bag of music. All are reasonably well played, the question is whether prior versions are superior. For Die Moldau, the 60s analog has slightly more occluded sound, but is also slightly more exciting. So a wash. Les Preludes is definitely better in the 60s rendition - the brass rings out much more clearly, which is obviously important in the latter quarter of this piece. The Weber is also clearer but slower and less exciting than the early 70s version recorded at the JCK. Strangely, the very early 60s recording of the Hungarian Rhapsody No. 5 is both clearer and more incisive. And the early 70s William Tell is markedly superior, with a better cello solo, more explosive percussion and a better "horse race." So all told, that's one tie and 4 losses to prior recordings. Not a strong recommendation for this disc, even though it is not bad by any stretch.

*Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 38
LP#4106031









Brahms, Double Concerto op. 102; Tragic Overture, op. 81
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Antonio Meneses, cello
Anne-Sophie Mutter*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February 1983
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 49:34

*Review: *Wow! Meneses is incredible on cello here, and is well complemented by Mutter. The sound quality on the cello is exactly what I look for - deep in tone, revealing the inner resonance of the instrument's body, giving us the ragged details of the bow rubbing against the strings. Thrilling. The recording and performance are exceptional. The BPO plays expertly behind the soloists, and the digital recording delineates orchestral parts well. This Tragic Overture is no afterthought, either. It is brisk and exciting and shares the same excellent sonic qualities as the main event.

This disc as constituted here is not in print any more, as the Double Concerto has been paired with the Brahms Violin Concerto featuring Mutter in a "Karajan Gold Edition." I can't begrudge anyone that pairing, as the VC performance was exceptional, too. The same overture performance will be made available again on the digital Brahms 3 disc later this decade. As far as I know, this is Karajan's only recorded Brahms Double Concerto.

I think this is a must-own, frankly.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 39
LP#4231421









Brahms, Symphony No. 2, op. 73; Variations on a Theme by Joseph Haydn, op. 56a
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, June 1986 (Sym. 2) February 1983 (Var.)
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 59:32
*
Review: *This is a perfectly fine rendition of Brahms 2, better in fact than the 70s analog, which suffered from some muddy/boomy sound. This recording is rich and deep, but does not possess the clarity or speed of the 60s Brahms 2 recorded in the JCK. That is still the preferred recording in my book. The Haydn Variations are also nicely played and recorded. It isn't my favorite piece, but it certainly wasn't unpleasant.

Does this recording need to exist? No. It doesn't offer anything over the 60s analog. It's better than the 70s analog. But you wouldn't be ill served if you had this as part of a set.

I also really like the cover.

*Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I disagree. I think the 80s Brahms 2 is HvK's best version and one of the best versions of the symphony available.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I disagree. I think the 80s Brahms 2 is HvK's best version and one of the best versions of the symphony available.


Oh, I like it. I just like the 60's more


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> Oh, I like it. I just like the 60's more


Good. Don't go dissing on my Karajan.


----------



## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I disagree. I think the 80s Brahms 2 is HvK's best version and one of the best versions of the symphony available.


I must say I quite agree. I mean, there are _many_ great recordings of Brahms symphonies, but this is one that for me stands out. The digital HvK Brahms 1 as well.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> I must say I quite agree. I mean, there are _many_ great recordings of Brahms symphonies, but this is one that for me stands out. The digital HvK Brahms 1 as well.


Maybe it's sentiment, but I still go for the 1964 Karajan as my prime recommendation for 1sts.

Among 2nds, my prime recommendations in stereo are Klemperer, Karajan 80s, and Bernstein/VPO, and then among pre stereo are Furtwängler '45, Monteux, and Walter.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

The digital 1st and 4th are the standouts for me from the 80s cycle because of the amazing brass. Overall, the cycle is quite good. I think the 60s is airier in texture without sacrificing good bass response, and the tempii are slightly brisker.


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## BachIsBest

It must be a magical time of year: Knorf and Brahmsianhorn are _agreeing_ on recording recomendations.


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## Brahmsianhorn

BachIsBest said:


> It must be a magical time of year: Knorf and Brahmsianhorn are _agreeing_ on recording recomendations.


On Karajan recordings we agree quite a lot. After all, HvK is probably the closest thing we have to a stereo Furtwangler.


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## Handelian

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I disagree. I think the 80s Brahms 2 is HvK's best version and one of the best versions of the symphony available.


I have this one too but I'm not big on Brahms symphonies I must confess


----------



## Knorf

BachIsBest said:


> It must be a magical time of year: Knorf and Brahmsianhorn are _agreeing_ on recording recomendations.


:lol:

We agree on most things in terms of German repertoire, I think. But agreeing is boring, so we focus on arguing about what we disagree about, which is mainly Furtwängler. Also I think he could do well to appreciate more recordings made since 1990; but for the stereo era until then, I think he and I are listening for a lot of the same things in German rep.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> Also I think he could do well to appreciate more recordings made since 1990


The newest recording I can think of that for me counts as a desert island disc is Gardiner's 1989 Monteverdi Vespers, so I guess you're right on the money with this statement.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 40
LP#4109591









R. Strauss, Also Sprach Zarathustra. op. 30; Don Juan, op. 20
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February & September 1983
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 54:16

*Review: *This Also Sprach lacks the raw power and the rapturous beauty of the 1970s take. It does, however, possess better sonics and greater clarity. So it's interesting to listen to in a more academic sense. Elements like the organ come through with greater clarity in the third movement "Von der grossen Sensucht." But the overall impression of the piece in totality is somewhat sedate. I would still recommend the 1970s HVK/BPO recording over this one, and I think also Rudolf Kempe's 1970s recording with Staatskapelle Dresden (HVK's 1950s recording for Decca with the VPO isn't in the same league in terms of sound quality, though it is a fiery performance).

The Don Juan is another story. It contains all of the verve that the Zarathustra lacks, in the same splendid sound. It bests HVK/BPO's 70s account for both sound quality and intensity and is among the best renditions of this piece I've heard.

Overall, I'd give the ASZ a 7 and the Don Juan a 10. FWIW, I quite like the cover.

*Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 40
> LP#4109591
> 
> View attachment 147045
> 
> 
> R. Strauss, Also Sprach Zarathustra. op. 30; Don Juan, op. 20
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February & September 1983
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 54:16
> 
> *Review: *This Also Sprach lacks the raw power and the rapturous beauty of the 1970s take. It does, however, possess better sonics and greater clarity. So it's interesting to listen to in a more academic sense. Elements like the organ come through with greater clarity in the third movement "Von der grossen Sensucht." But the overall impression of the piece in totality is somewhat sedate. I would still recommend the 1970s HVK/BPO recording over this one, and I think also Rudolf Kempe's 1970s recording with Staatskapelle Dresden (HVK's 1950s recording for Decca with the VPO isn't in the same league in terms of sound quality, though it is a fiery performance).
> 
> The Don Juan is another story. It contains all of the verve that the Zarathustra lacks, in the same splendid sound. It bests HVK/BPO's 70s account for both sound quality and intensity and is among the best renditions of this piece I've heard.
> 
> Overall, I'd give the ASZ a 7 and the Don Juan a 10. FWIW, I quite like the cover.


I have this record. I always thought the ASZ was pretty good, but I have few points of comparison. Fortunately, I have the Kempe that you mention, so perhaps a side-by-side listen is in order.

BTW I also appear to have two Reiner recordings with the CSO (as well as a Dorati version that I inherited). I got the Reiner stuff from Supraphonline as one of their bargain box set purchases, and of all those it is the Reiner that has provided some real eye-openers for me. He absolutely blew me away with Beethoven 5 a few weeks ago, as well as a really good Dvorak 9, and so far it is only sound quality (rather than interpretation) which has got in the way with what I've listened to. My expectation, though, is that ASZ is a work which really benefits from great sound.

Listening to one of the Reiner versions as I write, and some really excellent brass playing in the Joys and Passions bit - sound generally OK too. Sorry to go so off-topic, but that Reiner set at about £6-7 for so much music in excellent performances (and usually pretty good sound) is a spectacular bargain if it's still available.


----------



## Handelian

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 40
> LP#4109591
> 
> View attachment 147045
> 
> 
> R. Strauss, Also Sprach Zarathustra. op. 30; Don Juan, op. 20
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February & September 1983
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 54:16
> 
> *Review: *This Also Sprach lacks the raw power and the rapturous beauty of the 1970s take. It does, however, possess better sonics and greater clarity. So it's interesting to listen to in a more academic sense. Elements like the organ come through with greater clarity in the third movement "Von der grossen Sensucht." But the overall impression of the piece in totality is somewhat sedate. I would still recommend the 1970s HVK/BPO recording over this one, and I think also Rudolf Kempe's 1970s recording with Staatskapelle Dresden (HVK's 1950s recording for Decca with the VPO isn't in the same league in terms of sound quality, though it is a fiery performance).
> 
> The Don Juan is another story. It contains all of the verve that the Zarathustra lacks, in the same splendid sound. It bests HVK/BPO's 70s account for both sound quality and intensity and is among the best renditions of this piece I've heard.
> 
> Overall, I'd give the ASZ a 7 and the Don Juan a 10. FWIW, I quite like the cover.
> 
> *Rating: 8/10
> 
> Videos:*


Karajan appeared to like ASZ that it was the first piece he requested he record with Decca. Apart from the opening it is rather a bore - just as Neitzche's philosophy is. Don Juan is another matter


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## janxharris

Handelian said:


> Karajan appeared to like ASZ that it was the first piece he requested he record with Decca. Apart from the opening it is rather a bore - just as Neitzche's philosophy is. Don Juan is another matter


It's always a little astonishing when someone doesn't share our love for a particular piece - I think ASZ is extremely good. Have you tried Jonathon Nott and the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra's live Prom performance?


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## Knorf

I adore Strauss's _Also Sprach Zarathustra_; it's one of my all-time favorite pieces and probably my favorite Strauss tone poem. I find it very, _very_ far from boring.


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## Heck148

Eclectic Al said:


> Listening to one of the Reiner versions as I write, and some really excellent brass playing in the Joys and Passions bit - sound generally OK too. Sorry to go so off-topic, but that Reiner set at about £6-7 for so much music in excellent performances (and usually pretty good sound) is a spectacular bargain if it's still available.


There are 2 Reiner ASZs - 1954 and 1962...both are top level excellent, but the '62 one is really spectacular.
I agree with one of my former teachers that the '62 "Green Cover" Reiner ASZ is indeed one of the greatest orchestral recordings ever made of anything....the sound is really fine, also...RCA recorded tremendous detail and clarity, plus an amazing amount of sonic "wallop" as well....some of the climaxes are just unbelievable....great orchestral execution...both are available but the '54 seems to be included in the combo sets....the '62 is better played, and recorded....definitely worth chasing it down...grab the '60 Don Juan while you're at it..another "Hall of Famer"....IIRC, recorded in one take!!


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## MatthewWeflen

Yeah, I don't think ASZ is necessarily boring after the opener. But it takes good direction/rhythmic pulse, and passionate playing. The 70s HVK/BPO has this, whereas the 80s digital, though beautifully clear, is just a bit "meh" for me.

As far as its place in the Straussian catalog, if I had to rank my top several, they would probably go: 

Eine Alpensinfonie
Tod und Verklarung
Metamorphosen
Also Sprach Zarathustra

I would have to do more listening and think about the rest of the catalog, especially since I have the lovely Kempe/Staatskapelle Dresden box to go with my HVK/BPO renditions. And that sounds like fun


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## Brahmsianhorn

Yes, that 70s ASZ stays interesting throughout, one of the few to pull that off along with the old Koussevitzky/BSO and Stock/CSO versions


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Yes, that 70s ASZ stays interesting throughout, one of the few to pull that off along with the old Koussevitzky/BSO and Stock/CSO versions


Is the Koussie the one with the horrific trumpet clams in it??


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## Eclectic Al

Heck148 said:


> There are 2 Reiner ASZs - 1954 and 1962...both are top level excellent, but the '62 one is really spectacular.
> I agree with one of my former teachers that the '62 "Green Cover" Reiner ASZ is indeed one of the greatest orchestral recordings ever made of anything....the sound is really fine, also...RCA recorded tremendous detail and clarity, plus an amazing amount of sonic "wallop" as well....some of the climaxes are just unbelievable....great orchestral execution...both are available but the '54 seems to be included in the combo sets....the '62 is better played, and recorded....definitely worth chasing it down...grab the '60 Don Juan while you're at it..another "Hall of Famer"....IIRC, recorded in one take!!


My box set seems to have 2 Don Juan's as well as 2 ASZs. Looking good.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 41-42
LP#4105211









Brahms, Ein Deutsches Requiem, op. 45
Bruckner, Te Deum
Viener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Rudolf Scholz, organ
Barbara Hendricks, soprano (Brahms)
Janet Perry, soprano
Helga Muller-Molinari, contralto
Gosta Winbergh, tenor
Alexander Malta, bass
Jose van Dam, baritone (Brahms)
*
Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, May 1983
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 2:06:20

*Review:* This is a beautiful recording of the German Requiem. The organ is evident throughout. The bass tones are blissful. The first movement starts out mysterious and mystical, diaphanous, and builds slowly to cosmic heights. The second movement does this beautifully as well - if I had any criticism, it would be that the climaxes of the second movement ("Denn alles fleisch, est is wie gras!") could be even bigger than they are. Nonetheless, percussion is precise and strong, and the whole listening experience is very involving. The solo work is of a high quality and the whole thing ends very strongly in its later movements. I'd give it a 9 overall, and consider it the equal of the 1960s analog performance with the BPO.

The Te Deum doesn't do it as much for me. It's somewhat boomy and screechy and is kind of an unpleasant listen. The 1976 Te Deum is better balanced and earns preference over this one. I would give it a 6 here.

*Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## Brahmsianhorn

I consider HvK’s 1947 German Requiem to be among the handful of greatest recordings of the work.

He did a great Metamorphosen I believe the same year. I’m sure postwar emotions were running high in both recordings.


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## BachIsBest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I consider HvK's 1947 German Requiem to be among the handful of greatest recordings of the work.


Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is not even human in that recording.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 43
LP#4139331








Beethoven, Symphony No. 9, op. 125
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Janet Perry, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, contralto
Vinson Cole, tenor
Jose van Dam, baritone*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1983
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:06:19

*Review:* Sound quality here starts out a bit crunchy and digital compared to the prior 2 DG renditions. Tempii are roughly similar. Ultimately the sound calms down and it quite engaging. Brass is a bit more forward in this mix, especially the small parts, compared to past 9ths. There is a nice sense of detail and things are certainly peppy. The 3rd movement is quite beauteous. I will say that in the fast movements (such as the instrumental break between choral parts in the 5th movement, see 53:09 in the appended video), compared to the prior two recordings, there seem to be very slight asynchronicities between instrument groups, but this is really straining for criticism. As far as the chorus goes, I don't particularly like Vinson Cole's portions, they seem a bit weak. But, when the Singverein comes in at the big moment, it is appropriately big and is quite rousing.

Evaluating the three renditions against each other will come down to sound quality and what you want from the singers. 60s probably has the best solo work. 80s has the best chorus. 70s splits the difference. 70s easily has the best orchestral sound. 60s is good but somewhat "early stereo" sounding. 80s is nicely detailed but "early digital." All of them ably represent a "Karajan 9th." That the 80s is very slightly the least of the 3 owes mostly to their overall similarity. Critical pooh-poohing of this recording can really only be down to dislike of HVK/BPO or a perception of money grubbing. I agree that there is no particular reason for this to exist, but it is by no means bad. Far from it.

*Rating: 9/10*
*
Videos:*


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## Brahmsianhorn

Yeah, that 80s 9th isn't bad at all. 70s is my favorite, except the chorus is a little thin and recessed. Not as powerful as I would like. 

60s IMO is a bit overrated, except as you say the soloists.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 44
LP#4133091









Albinoni (Giazotto), Adagio in G Minor for Strings and Organ
Vivaldi, Concerto for Flute, Strings and Harpsichord "La Notte" RV 439
Bach, Air (from Orch. Suite No. 3 BWV 1068)
Pachelbel, Canon and Gigue in D major
Gluck, Dance of the Blessed Spirits
Mozart, Serenata notturna in D major K239
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
David Bell, organ
Frank Maus, harpichord
*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September & November 1983
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 55:17

*Review: *So here we have a baroque/early classical grab bag (yes, I am aware of the authorship controversy on the Adagio). Firstly, I should say, from an audio standpoint, this is among the very best HVK/BPO baroque/early classical stuff they have done (the EMI Four Seasons is also well played and recorded). The sound quality throughout is far clearer than the 60s (yuck) or even the 70s (so-so) material in this style. The harpsichord and organ are both beautifully clear. The highlights are the Adagio, La Notte, and Canon in D. I know Adagio and Canon are not everyone's cup of tea, but I don't mind an overplayed war horse if it's done beautifully, as these are done here. The Adagio in particular has pretty amazing sound and good (somber) feeling throughout. The bass tones on the organ are really something over good equipment (laptop speakers or earbuds will not reveal it). The Canon in D is lovely and the orchestral parts are balanced really well. I found "Air" and the Gluck pretty boring, though. The Mozart is pretty good. your mileage may vary based on your tolerance for the pieces, but as grab bags go, this is a pretty good one.

*Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 45
LP#4051061









Georges Bizet, L'Arlesienne, Suites Nos. 1 & 2; Carmen Suite No. 1
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February 1984
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 45:22
*
Review: *The pieces here, with all respect to Bizet, are somewhat simplistic from an orchestration perspective. As such, they need to be played with especial fire to not end up on the bland side. They are not. The previous early 70s recording of these by HVK/BPO is much livelier and more engaging. Things are mostly played quite proficiently, and the highlights are suitably "big," but overall, things sort of limp along, especially in slow movements. I do sense that the percussion and orchestration in the Farandole are a bit out of sync, and since the Farandole is really why everyone is here, that's a pretty big sin. All in all it's pretty average to mediocre. I wonder if this is a recording in which post-Sabine Meyer tensions have caused an audible rift?
* 
Rating: 6/10

Videos:*


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## Eclectic Al

Picking up on what you say about tensions, is it telling that "Karajan" here is next to Bizet on the cover, rather than next to the orchestra? Looking back at earlier covers, he is usually near the BPO rather than the composer.


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## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Picking up on what you say about tensions, is it telling that "Karajan" here is next to Bizet on the cover, rather than next to the orchestra? Looking back at earlier covers, he is usually near the BPO rather than the composer.


I wonder. This cover and the next have that arrangement, but then revert to the old style. There are 4 covers like this in the 80s total, and 4 in the 70s, mostly on compliations with many composers (e.g. "Opernballet"). The 60s have 15 such covers.


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 36
> LP#4151211
> 
> View attachment 146825
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony No. 4, op. 60; Symphony No. 7, op. 92
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Berlin, Philharmonie, December 1983
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 64:51
> 
> *Review: *This platter is more successful all around than the previous in the 80s digital Beethoven cycle. Where those suffered from some mixing issues and a too fast tempo in the 6th, here the 4th and 7th are very capably presented. If this the best HVK/BPO 4th? No. I think that still goes to the '63 cycle. But it is played with clarity and precision. There are spots in the 4th movement when the brass is mixed a bit too hot - the trumpet near the end really bleats in the left channel. The 7th is better, and the digital clarity here is a big plus, elevating this recording above both the '63 and '77 into the top spot for HVK/BPO Beethoven (77's bass and reverb bloomed too much, 63 does not have the same level of detail across the orchestra). The 4th movement is the standout, soundly besting the other two recordings for clarity of all parts in the crowded "dance." It really is a marvel and is worth checking out at 26:35 in the appended video.
> 
> I'd give the 4th a seven and the 7th a ten. Owing to that 7th, this disc is the first of the 80s cycle that justifies its existence.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


Apologies for being a bit behind the discussion, but the comments around no.7 made me want to give it a spin. I did so this morning and I was so surprised - I don't remember the performance being _that_ good! Good steer Matthew :tiphat:


----------



## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I disagree. I think the 80s Brahms 2 is HvK's best version and one of the best versions of the symphony available.


Egg wetter gree


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## Eclectic Al

MatthewWeflen said:


> I wonder. This cover and the next have that arrangement, but then revert to the old style. There are 4 covers like this in the 80s total, and 4 in the 70s, mostly on compliations with many composers (e.g. "Opernballet"). The 60s have 15 such covers.


Great detective work.


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## MatthewWeflen

This was just released on YouTube, a really nice interview re: 1977 Beethoven cycle.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 46
LP#4137541









Richard Wagner, Overture to Tannhauser and Bacchanale;
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg, Vorspiel
Tristan und Isolde, Vorspiel and Isolde's Liebestod
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February 1984
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 50:07
*
Review: *Well. If the last album seemed detached and lifeless, the same cannot be said here. Wowsers, this is beautifully and passionately played. Now, I should say that the Bacchanale is not one of my favorite pieces, and so having an arrangement with the Tannhauser Overture (which is in my top ten) is not ideal for me. But the playing and sound are both superlative. The brass on Meistersinger is terrific, and marries with the strings wonderfully. The Tristan und Isolde selections are as beautiful as I've ever heard. As a collection of "bleeding chunks" goes, one would be hard pressed to do better (I have the Janowski collection by Pentatone as an alternative, and though it is technologically superior the playing does not possess the same fire). Even wtih the Tannhauser Overture arranged with the Bachannale, I can't think of a compelling argument against a 10 - the passionate playing and truly wondrous sound quality seal the deal. And this album shares a key feature with other 10's: I could not bring myself to turn it off until it was done, no matter how late at night it was.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 47
LP#4137551









Jean Sibelius, Finlandia op. 26; The Swan of Tuonela op. 22/3;
Valse triste op. 44/1; Tapiola op. 112
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Gerhard Stempnik, english horn solo (Swan)
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February 1984
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Producer: Michel Glotz
Recording Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 43:59

*Review:* This is a redo of the mid-60s Sibelius Tone Poem platter (60s disc 43, which I rated poorly solely because it was a double dip of the symphony albums' "b-sides"). In terms of tempii, things are pretty similar to that disc. The digital sound is slightly clearer, but the analog album recorded in the JCK was no slouch, and is a touch richer in the deep tones. Personally, Valse triste and Tapiola are lower down on my list of Sibelius favorites (he is in my top three for composers). So the album kind of ends on a down-ish note for me. I think overall this is less exciting than the 60s disc, and that one remains the preferred for this repertoire by HVK/BPO on DG. The question ends up being whether the 60s DG or the 70s EMI is better. And I think EMI probably has both beat for both exciting play and sonics in Finlandia and Tapioila, whereas the 60s DG wins on Valse triste (EMI is too swampy and boomy in the bass) and Swan of Tuonela (which is not on EMI).

So this is not bad, but all four pieces are done better elsewhere by HVK/BPO.
*
Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 48
LP#4155051
*







*
Beethoven, Symphony No. 1, op. 21; Symphony No. 2, op. 36
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1984
Executive Producer: Günter Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 57:46

*Review: *The first movement of the first is a real departure for HVK/BPO. It's significantly slower than his other renditions, _and _it contains the exposition repeat. This makes for a different listening experience, and one I'm not accustomed to as yet after listening to much to the '63 and '77 renditions. It's not bad _per se_, but I can't quite bring myself around to this recording. The remaining movements slip into familiar tempos. Sound quality is good. The second is a more traditional HVK/BPO joint, by which I mean it is bright and peppy and thrilling. String attacks on the cool parts of the first movement are really zingy. Overall sound quality is excellent, with good percussion and deep cellos and basses. I'd call it a 7 and a 9 for the symphonies, respectively. Both 63 and 77 are superior on the first, but the second is competitive with prior recordings for both drive and beauty of sound.
*
Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 48
> LP#4155051
> *
> View attachment 147941
> 
> *
> Beethoven, Symphony No. 1, op. 21; Symphony No. 2, op. 36
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> *
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1984
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 57:46
> 
> *Review: *The first movement of the first is a real departure for HVK/BPO. It's significantly slower than his other renditions, _and _it contains the exposition repeat. This makes for a different listening experience, and one I'm not accustomed to as yet after listening to much to the '63 and '77 renditions. It's not bad _per se_, but I can't quite bring myself around to this recording. The remaining movements slip into familiar tempos. Sound quality is good. The second is a more traditional HVK/BPO joint, by which I mean it is bright and peppy and thrilling. String attacks on the cool parts of the first movement are really zingy. Overall sound quality is excellent, with good percussion and deep cellos and basses. I'd call it a 7 and a 9 for the symphonies, respectively. Both 63 and 77 are superior on the first, but the second is competitive with prior recordings for both drive and beauty of sound.
> *
> Rating: 8/10
> 
> Videos:*


Prompted me to listen to this with 2020 ears (whatever that means!) and I must say it's superb and better than I remember. I think 2 is extremely vibrant and rhythmically driven, more so than earlier K performances. I think I prefer it.

Sound quality of these recordings (purchased downloads) is excellent (I'm listening via the Audirvana platform (24/44.1 kHz), Beyerdynamic DT-1990 headphones, Beyerdynamic A 20 headphone amp and Cambridge Audio DacMagic DAC. Not the most expensive kit around, but stonkingly good!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Prompted me to listen to this with 2020 ears (whatever that means!) and I must say it's superb and better than I remember. I think 2 is extremely vibrant and rhythmically driven, more so than earlier K performances. I think I prefer it.
> 
> Sound quality of these recordings (purchased downloads) is excellent (I'm listening via the Audirvana platform (24/44.1 kHz), Beyerdynamic DT-1990 headphones, Beyerdynamic A 20 headphone amp and Cambridge Audio DacMagic DAC. Not the most expensive kit around, but stonkingly good!


What did you think of the 1st? Did the tempo seem slow to you? The sound quality is unimpeachable, but I wouldn't listen tot his 1st ahead of any of HVK's others, or Gardiner, Fischer, M. Sanderling, possibly even Chailly (who is too fast but the recording is splendid).


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> What did you think of the 1st? Did the tempo seem slow to you? The sound quality is unimpeachable, but I wouldn't listen tot his 1st ahead of any of HVK's others, or Gardiner, Fischer, M. Sanderling, possibly even Chailly (who is too fast but the recording is splendid).


Tbh, LvB's first symphony doesn't grab me anyway, so I didn't comment on it. I think this performance is measured, and better for it. I enjoyed the textures that this performance brings out (in a symphony that is often pretty straight ahead and direct in most performances). The next time I feel like listening to LvB 1, I may well go for this one. Perhaps it is K's more reflective (?) approach. The Chailly comparison is, in my opinion, instructive. Does Chailly rush past some of the timbral nuances? Perhaps K is in a more Dionysiac autumnal mode.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 49
LP#41550951









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique" op. 74
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, January 1984
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Editing: Reinhild Schmidt
Total time: 45:44
*
Review: *HVK has not, to my knowledge, set a bad Tchaikovsky 6 to record. This is no exception. It is exciting, beautiful, full of pathos, everything a Tchai 6 needs to be. The question is where this sits among the various HVK recordings. This digital recording with the VPO has the greatest clarity of the three DG offerings. It really is special in that regard. It also has excellent bass and dynamic range. The 70s record with the BPO is "bigger," and has a "wetter" and more reverberant sound (as opposed to the 80s "dryness"). But the 60s is also very fine. I think 80s just edges the others for audio, while the 70s and 60s are probably tied for the lead in thrills. 60s emphasizes the tympani the most. All told, there is very little overall separating them from one another. Any of them will do, and all three stand among the finest 6ths I've heard. 
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 49
> LP#41550951
> 
> View attachment 148135
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique" op. 74
> Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, January 1984
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Editing: Reinhild Schmidt
> Total time: 45:44
> ]
> Rating: 10/10


I have this on LP. It was my very first Tchaikovsky purchase and also among my favourites. I agree with your review. I always liked Karajan/VPO combo on Tchaikovsky Symphonies 4, 5, 6. There is something in VPO's instruments and sound that is particularly complimenting Karajan's style on Tchaikovsky. Great combo.


----------



## Bill Cooke

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 49
> LP#41550951
> 
> View attachment 148135
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique" op. 74
> Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, January 1984
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Editing: Reinhild Schmidt
> Total time: 45:44
> *
> Review: *HVK has not, to my knowledge, set a bad Tchaikovsky 6 to record. This is no exception. It is exciting, beautiful, full of pathos, everything a Tchai 6 needs to be. The question is where this sits among the various HVK recordings. This digital recording with the VPO has the greatest clarity of the three DG offerings. It really is special in that regard. It also has excellent bass and dynamic range. The 70s record with the BPO is "bigger," and has a "wetter" and more reverberant sound (as opposed tot he 80s "dryness"). But the 60s is also very fine. I think 80s just edges the others for audio, while the 70s and 60s are probably tied for the lead in thrills. 60s emphasizes the tympani the most. All told, there is very little overall separating them from one another. Any of them will do, and all three stand among the finest 6ths I've heard.
> *
> Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


The cover art is insane! Tchaikovsky as the giant head from ZARDOZ, trapped in the world of TRON.


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## MatthewWeflen

Bill Cooke said:


> The cover art is insane! Tchaikovsky as the giant head from ZARDOZ, trapped in the world of TRON.


I kind of love it, and for exactly those reasons  It is also somewhat reminiscent of Monty Python. The next two Tchaikovsky covers also add laser-like effects.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 50-51
LP#41550911









Giuseppe Verdi, Messa da requiem
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, messo-soprano
Jose Carreras, tenor
Jose van Dam, bass
Wiener Staatsopernchor
Chorus of the Sofia National Opera*

Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, June1984
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:26:33

*Review:* I am ambivalent with regard to Verdi's Requiem. On the one hand, it has a rocking Dies Irae, on the other hand it goes on for SO LONG and I just wish it were over at times. This digital recording is technically superior to the 70s analog with the BPO, with clearer delineation between orchestral parts and a more forward chorus. There are some really beautiful string textures in _piano _moments. The soprano work in this rendition tends just a wee bit towards screechiness in spots (possibly because the singers are more forward in the mix), so the 70s is superior in that one respect. I think this one is the pick overall, though. It's just not my cup of tea outside of a few excerpts.
*
Rating: 8/10*

*Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 52
LP#4155061









Beethoven Symphony No. 3 "Eroica" op. 55
Egmont Overture, op. 84*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1984
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 56:59

*Review: *The "Herbie has never done a bad Eroica" notion is not going to be disproved here. This is a stirring, muscular account with a lot of drama and beauty. This Eroica is a shade faster than the 63, and a shade slower than the 77 (but with a faster Funeral March). All of them are within a similar range, though, and none sounds _particularly _fast or slow. This digital recording has the most detailed sound of the three, and the least reverberation. So it's really kind of up to personal taste and a few highlight sections, as to which one you should choose. My personal "go to" passage is the dramatic climax of the funeral march (21:31 in the appended video), right around midway through. The 70s for my money has the most emotional intensity, the most beautiful brass, and has some great miking on the tympani at the critical moment (22:55). After hearing the 70s, it's something I look for, and the 80s is just less exciting in this passage. So while I can "hear more" in the 80s rendition, I do "feel more" (albeit slightly) with the 70s. But these are matters of degrees, and the 80s performance is very fine, and well worth listening to on occasion, to get the full power of the "Karajan sound" while retaining the maximum possible detail for an approach like this (thinner sounds like Gardiner or Adam Fischer are necessarily more revealing of quieter instruments).

But when you add to this a quite excellent rendition of the Egmont Overture, with all the same fine qualities, you get a great disc all around. The overtures in the 80s cycle are an overlooked gem. Each recording surpasses its 60s counterpart, and I just wish we had gotten a more complete survey of them in this digital decade. Ah well. 
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## Handelian

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 52
> LP#4155061
> 
> View attachment 148476
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony No. 3 "Eroica" op. 55
> Egmont Overture, op. 84*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1984
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 56:59
> 
> *Review: *The "Herbie has never done a bad Eroica" notion is not going to be disproved here. This is a stirring, muscular account with a lot of drama and beauty. This Eroica is a shade faster than the 63, and a shade slower than the 77 (but with a faster Funeral March). All of them are within a similar range, though, and none sounds _particularly _fast or slow. This digital recording has the most detailed sound of the three, and the least reverberation. So it's really kind of up to personal taste and a few highlight sections, as to which one you should choose. My personal "go to" passage is the dramatic climax of the funeral march (21:31 in the appended video), right around midway through. The 70s for my money has the most emotional intensity, the most beautiful brass, and has some great miking on the tympani at the critical moment (22:55). After hearing the 70s, it's something I look for, and the 80s is just less exciting in this passage. So while I can "hear more" in the 80s rendition, I do "feel more" (albeit slightly) with the 70s. But these are matters of degrees, and the 80s performance is very fine, and well worth listening to on occasion, to get the full power of the "Karajan sound" while retaining the maximum possible detail for an approach like this (thinner sounds like Gardiner or Adam Fischer are necessarily more revealing of quieter instruments).
> 
> But when you add to this a quite excellent rendition of the Egmont Overture, with all the same fine qualities, you get a great disc all around. The overtures in the 80s cycle are an overlooked gem. Each recording surpasses its 60s counterpart, and I just wish we had gotten a more complete survey of them in this digital decade. Ah well.
> *
> Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Great performance. Sounds terrific in the Gold remastering


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 52
> LP#4155061
> 
> View attachment 148476
> 
> *


*

Its one of my favourite albums. Great performance.*


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## Brahmsianhorn

The jewel of the 80s cycle


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 52
> LP#4155061
> 
> View attachment 148476
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony No. 3 "Eroica" op. 55
> Egmont Overture, op. 84*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1984
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 56:59
> 
> *Review: *The "Herbie has never done a bad Eroica" notion is not going to be disproved here. This is a stirring, muscular account with a lot of drama and beauty. This Eroica is a shade faster than the 63, and a shade slower than the 77 (but with a faster Funeral March). All of them are within a similar range, though, and none sounds _particularly _fast or slow. This digital recording has the most detailed sound of the three, and the least reverberation. So it's really kind of up to personal taste and a few highlight sections, as to which one you should choose. My personal "go to" passage is the dramatic climax of the funeral march (21:31 in the appended video), right around midway through. The 70s for my money has the most emotional intensity, the most beautiful brass, and has some great miking on the tympani at the critical moment (22:55). After hearing the 70s, it's something I look for, and the 80s is just less exciting in this passage. So while I can "hear more" in the 80s rendition, I do "feel more" (albeit slightly) with the 70s. But these are matters of degrees, and the 80s performance is very fine, and well worth listening to on occasion, to get the full power of the "Karajan sound" while retaining the maximum possible detail for an approach like this (thinner sounds like Gardiner or Adam Fischer are necessarily more revealing of quieter instruments).
> 
> But when you add to this a quite excellent rendition of the Egmont Overture, with all the same fine qualities, you get a great disc all around. The overtures in the 80s cycle are an overlooked gem. Each recording surpasses its 60s counterpart, and I just wish we had gotten a more complete survey of them in this digital decade. Ah well.
> *
> Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Listening now. Awesome. I'd forgotten _precisely_ how good this performance and recording is.

My favourite of all of K's LvB 3 performances.

Deffo a 10/10.

Is it a Karajan Gold mastering on this complete set? Sounds good enough to me, to be so. I suppose I could locate my CDs, but I want a short-cut!


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## Handelian

HenryPenfold said:


> Listening now. Awesome. I'd forgotten precisely how good this performance and recording is.
> 
> My favourite of all of K's LvB 3 performances.
> 
> Deffo a 10/10.
> 
> Is it a Karajan Gold mastering on this complete set? Sounds good enough to me, to be so. I suppose I could locate my CDs, but I want a short-cut!


The gold came out later. I don;'t know whether it is now part of the complete set


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## HenryPenfold

Handelian said:


> The gold came out later. I don;'t know whether it is now part of the complete set


Unless Matthew can shed some light on this, I guess it's a trip to the overflow room ......


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## MatthewWeflen

My understanding is that the decade boxes contain all of the newest OIBP remasters.

I certainly haven't detected any bad mastering on the releases for the most part (only the 70s Four Seasons and the 80s St. Saens "Orgel" stand out in that regard).


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 53
LP#4155071









Beethoven Symphony No. 8, op. 93
Coriolan Overture, op. 62
Fidelio Overture, op. 72b
"Leonore III" Overture, op. 72a
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1984, December 1985 (overtures)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 56:05
*
Review: *This platter concludes the 80s digital Beethoven cycle in good fashion. The 8th is more stately and slower (by about 30 second per movement) than the 70s, and just about equals the 63 for duration. The sound quality is exceptional, especially the string attacks and the percussion. I wish the middle movements were slightly peppier, but the overall performance is still very enjoyable, especially from a sonic perspective.

Again the real stars here are the overtures. I don't know what was going on in "Meyer-gate" at the time, but it certainly didn't dampen these performances. The Coriolan sounds like it has an electric wire hooked up to it. Very driven. All three overtures are rendered splendidly, with great recording balances and detail.
*
Rating: 9/10*

The cycle as a whole has two standouts: 3 & 7. 7 is the recording that surpasses previous renditions, while 3 is arguably even to or superior (I still think the '77 Eroica edges the 80s). Symphonies 2,8 & 9 are the equal of past performances. 1,5 & 6 are lacking compared to past renditions. The overall sonic upgrade is real (at least in the remasters) and the cycle overall is a worthwhile listen in that it presents the clearest and most detailed rendition of the "Karajan Sound." But 77 as a whole is still my pick, because it has more drive, even if the orchestral sound can be slightly crowded on occasion.
*
Videos:*


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## Axter

^ Agree the Coriolan is electrifying here.
I believe the 80ies were also the time Deutsche Grammophon finally mastered its recording sound quality in their new Berlin studios (someone please correct me if I am wrong). Glad Karajan did this cycle in 80ies with improved DG quality.


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## BachIsBest

That's funny, I definitely prefer the Coriolan Karajan did in 1965. The 80s one is just too legato-e for a work that relied so much on its dramatic entrances. The following is not intended to spark a huge controversy, but my favourite Coriolan is






although I understand why such a dark, even apocalyptic, vision of the work may not sit well with some. Karajan 65' is perhaps the better "every day" Coriolan.


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## MatthewWeflen

Axter said:


> ^ Agree the Coriolan is electrifying here.
> I believe the 80ies were also the time Deutsche Grammophon finally mastered its recording sound quality in their new Berlin studios (someone please correct me if I am wrong). Glad Karajan did this cycle in 80ies with improved DG quality.


Perhaps the mid 80s. By all accounts the initial wave of digital recordings (e.g. Alpensinfonie) were quite bad. Thankfully, remastering has cleared up most issues. I have personally noticed a steady increase in quality from about 1983.


----------



## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> Perhaps the mid 80s. By all accounts the initial wave of digital recordings (e.g. Alpensinfonie) were quite bad. Thankfully, remastering has cleared up most issues. I have personally noticed a steady increase in quality from about 1983.


Yes, I noticed the quality increase too. This also created a healthy competition with Decca.
DG has a lot to thank Karajan and BPO though for staying in, and sometimes dominating, the records sales game.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 54
LP#4150941









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 5, op. 64
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, March 1984 
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 48:13

*Review: *What we have here is essentially a technically flawless digital rendition of Tchaikovsky's 5th. Despite being recorded with the VPO (relations have gotten pretty bad with the BPO by this juncture), this is still an utterly Karajan-ian reading. It is stylistically very similar to both the 60s and 70s. Tempii compared to the past recordings are slower in the first movement and faster in the remaining movements, but it's not terribly noticeable, really, as the Tchaikovsky "sweep" is well preserved. The level of detail is exceptional and the performance is both exciting and beauteous. Overall sound is slightly drier than the 70s recording made in the Philharmonie, and the BPO brass is a bit more boomy than the VPO. But they are fundamentally equal in terms of quality. The 60s rendition in the JCK comes off rather poorly by comparison sonically, despite being a fine performance. It has analog hiss and a muddled sort of reverb that makes it less immediate than the latter two.

*Rating: 10/10

Video:*


----------



## BachIsBest

Sometimes I think Karajan couldn't conduct bad Tchaikovsky if you put a gun to his head...


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## MatthewWeflen

BachIsBest said:


> Sometimes I think Karajan couldn't conduct bad Tchaikovsky if you put a gun to his head...


The 60s 1812 Overture is bad. But it's an open question whether the fault is with the composer or the performers.


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## Haydn man

MatthewWeflen said:


> The 60s 1812 Overture is bad. But it's an open question whether the fault is with the composer or the performers.


Sorry the answer is always it was the composers fault
The only acceptable performance of 1812 Overture is one I can't hear


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## MatthewWeflen

Haydn man said:


> Sorry the answer is always it was the composers fault
> The only acceptable performance of 1812 Overture is one I can't hear


Well, that settles that!


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## Handelian

Haydn man said:


> Sorry the answer is always it was the composers fault
> The only acceptable performance of 1812 Overture is one I can't hear


One answer for you - don't listen to it! Leave it for the kids to have fun with.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 55
LP#4153481









Tchaikovsky, Symphony No. 4, op. 36
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, September 1984
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 43:07

*Review: *Oddly, this rendition of the 4th is less enjoyable than both the 70s and 60s. There is a strangely recessed quality to the mix, which wasn't evident in the other two recordings at the VPO's venue. The percussion sounds a bit veiled and muddled (though pleasantly loud), and the opening brass blasts are a bit unpleasantly bright. It's not _bad_, to be sure, but the existence of the other two recordings renders this one mostly moot. The 70s is the preferred pick, but the 60s is no slouch, either.
*
Rating: 8/10

Video:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> The 60s 1812 Overture is bad. But it's an open question whether the fault is with the composer or the performers.


The 1812 overture is an excellently crafted composition. I feel no discomfort to be an admirer of this piece of music.


----------



## Fat Bob

HenryPenfold said:


> The 1812 overture is an excellently crafted composition. I feel no discomfort to be an admirer of this piece of music.


1812 was one of the first pieces of classical music I heard when one of my high school teachers played it for us. I enjoyed it and that and a few other examples started me exploring classical music so it can't be all bad!


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## Axter

Fat Bob said:


> 1812 was one of the first pieces of classical music I heard when one of my high school teachers played it for us. I enjoyed it and that and a few other examples started me exploring classical music so it can't be all bad!


I don't think anyone is saying its bad, its just difficult to perform, which makes in itself legendary when done right.

Also, wao you got into classical music through 1812! That interesting because I made my younger cousin to become a classical music fan and it was also through Tchaikovsky (6th Symph.). Guess Tchaikovsky music when done right has a powerful impact on listeners.

...sorry for going offtopic.


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## MatthewWeflen

I listened to the rendition by Mikhail Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra. It is better than the Karajan/BPO 60s rendition. It's still not my favorite piece, but it's not bad. Thus my conclusion is that the HVK/BPO 1812 is not good.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 56
LP#4135891









Claude Debussy, La Mer
Claude Debussy, Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune (L. 86)
Maurice Ravel, Pavane pour une infante défunte
Maurice Ravel, Daphnis et Chloé
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, December 1985
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 56:42

*Review: *I will readily admit to not being versed enough in these pieces to detect idiomatic issues. The other versions of this I have in my collection are HVK/BPO's 60's rendition, and Reiner/CSO's RCA "Living Stereo" release. The sound here is pretty amazing, easily outclassing my other versions, and the playing is sensitive and nuanced. Things are cleaner and more detailed than the 60s HVK/BPO by a pretty good margin, as well as just slighlty better than the Reiner (though that Living Stereo disc is amazing for a 1960 recording). In terms of performance all three have elements to recommend them. I would say that this edges out the 60s HVK/BPO and is neck and neck with the Reiner.

The Prelude and the Ravel selections are also very well done. All in all, a great disc that really puts the lie to the "80s HVK is subpar" notion. I also like the cover - a very pleasing photograph.
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> I listened to the rendition by Mikhail Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra. It is better than the Karajan/BPO 60s rendition. It's still not my favorite piece, but it's not bad. Thus my conclusion is that the HVK/BPO 1812 is not good.


I rarely say that you only ever need one recording of a piece, but in the case of the 1812 there really is absolutely no reason to ever have another recording other than this one:


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 57
LP#4155081









Richard Strauss, Ein Heldenleben op. 40
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February 1985
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 46:50

*Review: *I currently own 4 renditions of this piece - HVK/BPO 60s, Reiner/CSO 1954, Rudolf Kempe/Dresden, and HVK/BPO 80s. They are really all quite good and I honestly can't say that any one of them eclipses the others. As far as sound quality, this may be the best of the bunch (it is the most modern of the 4), but it's not a runaway. There is a lot of detail here, and the bass tones are deep, rich and accurate. But the Living Stereo record is again superlative, and the 1959 DG is no slouch. Kempe's 70s recording is also excellent. A surplus of riches! Anyway, I think that both as a performance and as a recording this one is very involving. Frequently while listening to passages for comparison, I just felt compelled to keep it playing. That's a very good sign for a recording.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Aside from Ormandy, my favorite Ein Held is Karajan/BPO 70s on EMI. Beautiful rendition


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## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Aside from Ormandy, my favorite Ein Held is Karajan/BPO 70s on EMI. Beautiful rendition


Be honest, you just love that cover


----------



## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> Be honest, you just love that cover
> 
> View attachment 148922


Karajan rocked back in the day


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## BachIsBest

MatthewWeflen said:


> Be honest, you just love that cover
> 
> View attachment 148922


The explanation of this is simple; here, EMI forgot that "Ein Heldenleben" was the title of the music and not an adjective to describe the conductor! An honest mistake if I ever saw one.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 58
LP#4155091









Antonín Dvořák, Symphony No. 9 "From the New World" op. 95
Bedřich Smetana, The Moldau (Vlatva) 
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Grosser Saal, Musikverein, Vienna, February 1985 (Sym. 9) and May 1985 (Moldau)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 55:14

*Review: *Man oh man, the latter day collaboration between HVK and VPO is bearing some serious fruit. Not only is this an exciting performance of a scintillating set of pieces, but the sound... the sound! This really hits the sweet spot for me, with absolutely luscious, crystal clear orchestral sound and beautifully miked tympani. I own 4 renditions of The New World: HVK/BPO 60s, Reiner/CSO 1957, HVK/VPO 80s, and Jiří Bělohlávek/Czech Phil 2014. Despite the Bělohlávek being the most recent recording, HVK/VPO takes the cake for best sound quality, and is at least the equal of the other three in terms of performance. It's really thrilling. The Smetana is similarly gorgeous. This one is not to be missed, folks.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## Handelian

BachIsBest said:


> The explanation of this is simple; here, EMI forgot that "Ein Heldenleben" was the title of the music and not an adjective to describe the conductor! An honest mistake if I ever saw one.


Ein Heldenleben is the title of the composer


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 59
LP#4159711/CD#4310952









Robert Schumann, Symphony No. 4 op.120
Antonín Dvořák, Symphony No. 8 op. 88
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Grosser Saal, Musikverein, Vienna, May 1987 (Sym. 4, live) and January 1985 (Sym. 8) 
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 67:35

*Review:* This Schumann 4 is absolutely incredible, especially for a live recording. Digital technology must have been progressing in leaps and bounds, because this 1987 recording beats the pants off of digital recordings from just 5 years earlier. The depth of bass and the clarity of treble, and the synergy of instrument groups with no occlusion, is just extraordinary. My alternative takes on this piece are HVK/BPO 70s and Bernstein/VPO from 1985.This is the best of the three, with a linear progression in sound quality from past to present.

The Dvořák 8 is a fine account as well, but I find myself liking the Jiří Bělohlávek/Czech Phil 2014 account just a tiny bit better. They are both brisk, exciting readings, but I find the recording quality slightly clearer on the Bělohlávek. Especially in the third movement, the violin sounds edge into shrillness on this recording, where they do not in the Bělohlávek. It's not thoroughly outclassed, I just like the sound a bit better on the more recent recording.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 59
> LP#4159711/CD#4310952
> 
> View attachment 149137
> 
> 
> Robert Schumann, Symphony No. 4 op.120
> Antonín Dvořák, Symphony No. 8 op. 88
> Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Grosser Saal, Musikverein, Vienna, May 1987 (Sym. 4, live) and January 1985 (Sym. 8)
> Executive Producer: Günther Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 67:35
> 
> *Review:* This Schumann 4 is absolutely incredible, especially for a live recording. Digital technology must have been progressing in leaps and bounds, because this 1987 recording beats the pants off of digital recordings from just 5 years earlier. The depth of bass and the clarity of treble, and the synergy of instrument groups with no occlusion, is just extraordinary. My alternative takes on this piece are HVK/BPO 70s and Bernstein/VPO from 1985.This is the best of the three, with a linear progression in sound quality from past to present.
> 
> The Dvořák 8 is a fine account as well, but I find myself liking the Jiří Bělohlávek/Czech Phil 2014 account just a tiny bit better. They are both brisk, exciting readings, but I find the recording quality slightly clearer on the Bělohlávek. Especially in the third movement, the violin sounds edge into shrillness on this recording, where they do not in the Bělohlávek. It's not thoroughly outclassed, I just like the sound a bit better on the more recent recording.
> 
> *Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


As has been remarked on, on another thread, the late digital Karajan recordings are so much better than we all thought at the time! Or more to the point how we were influenced to think! The Vienna Philharmonic recordings were also looked down on (save for the Bruckner). I suspect the more recent remastering have helped, too.

I agree, the Schumann is superb. If I had a pound for every time someone cried "Karajan doesn't understand Schumann"!!! I like this Dvorak 8 too, but my current go-to is Dohnanyi/Cleveland on Decca.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> As has been remarked on, on another thread, the late digital Karajan recordings are so much better than we all thought at the time! Or more to the point how we were influenced to think! The Vienna Philharmonic recordings were also looked down on (save for the Bruckner). I suspect the more recent remastering have helped, too.
> 
> I agree, the Schumann is superb. If I had a pound for every time someone cried "Karajan doesn't understand Schumann"!!! I like this Dvorak 8 too, but my current go-to is Dohnanyi/Cleveland on Decca.


If Karajan doesn't understand Schumann, then neither does Bernstein, because the performances were fundamentally similar (just with Lenny's trademark erratic tempo).


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> If Karajan doesn't understand Schumann, then neither does Bernstein, because the performances were fundamentally similar (just with Lenny's trademark erratic tempo).


It's a claim I read often in reviews on Amazon etc. I have a black and white DVD somewhere of Karajan in rehearsal, and the Schumann is mesmerising.


----------



## Axter

HenryPenfold said:


> It's a claim I read often in reviews on Amazon etc. I have a black and white DVD somewhere of Karajan in rehearsal, and the Schumann is mesmerising.


You mean this one, its with Wiener Symphoniker and you can spot a young Hanoncourt as cellist in the orchestra too.

The attention to detail of Karajan here is unbelievable


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 60
LP#4190961









Pope John Paul II celebrates Solemn High Mass in St. Peter's Basilica
Includes selections from Mozart K317 Coronation Mass, K618 Ave Verum,
and Domenicao Bartolucci, proper of the mass*
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Kathleen Battle, soprano
Trudeliese Schmidt, contralto
Gosta Winbergh, tenor
Ferrucio Furlanetto, bass

Recording: live in Rome, St. Peter's Basilica, 29 June 1985
Executive Producer: Günther Breest, Uli Markle
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 65:58
*
Review:* This recording is certainly an oddity, a full mass given by Pope John Paul II in Vatican City, with orchestral and choral accompaniment. The sound of the basilica is pretty good, and the atmosphere certainly brings forth memories from this lapsed Catholic. The mass is mostly in Latin, with one reading in English, oddly. Kathleen Battle sings a very nice Agnus Dei, and it's easy to see why she was a star - a very pleasing voice that never becomes shrill and always stays honey smooth. I think that's the highlight of the disc (I selected that video from the live performance below).

As a recording of a mass, it's good. As a disc of music, I can't say it's something I return to, basically ever. It's a real mixed bag of nice solo work and rather boring church liturgy. So your mileage will vary to the precise degree that you prefer religious and choral music in your listening. 
*
Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

Axter said:


> You mean this one, its with Wiener Symphoniker and you can spot a young Hanoncourt as cellist in the orchestra too.
> 
> The attention to detail of Karajan here is unbelievable


Yes! That's it! And I'd forgotten about the non-plussedcellist!!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 61
LP#4191881









Strauss, R: Vier letzte Lieder
Die heiligen drei Könige aus Morgenland Op. 56 No. 6
Capriccio: Intermezzo (Moonlight Music)
Capriccio: The Countess's Monologue*

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Paul Wolfrum, bass

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, November 1985
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 44:00
*
Review:* I have firmly declared my relative indifference to singing works, which led me to some surprise when the "Im Abendrot" lied really moved me (12:54 in the appended video). Overall, I was very impressed by Tomowa-Sintow's soprano singing, and thought it melded really well with the BPO. It was an enjoyable listen all around, including the other works. My level of immersion was no doubt helped by the sterling audio production, with excellent detail and terrific range tonally.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Fat Bob

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 61
> LP#4191881
> 
> View attachment 149221
> 
> 
> Strauss, R: Vier letzte Lieder
> Die heiligen drei Könige aus Morgenland Op. 56 No. 6
> Capriccio: Intermezzo (Moonlight Music)
> Capriccio: The Countess's Monologue*
> 
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
> Paul Wolfrum, bass
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, November 1985
> Executive Producer: Günther Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 44:00
> *
> Review:* I have firmly declared my relative indifference to singing works, which led me to some surprise when the "Im Abendrot" lied really moved me (12:54 in the appended video). Overall, I was very impressed by Tomowa-Sintow's soprano singing, and though it melded really well with the BPO. It was an enjoyable listen all around, including the other works. My level of immersion was no doubt helped by the sterling audio production, with excellent detail and terrific range tonally.
> 
> *Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


I have this but tend to listen to the earlier recording with Gundula Janowitz. Do you have a preference Matthew?


----------



## Handelian

Fat Bob said:


> I have this but tend to listen to the earlier recording with Gundula Janowitz. Do you have a preference Matthew?


Definitely Janowitz. Absolute classic.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Fat Bob said:


> I have this but tend to listen to the earlier recording with Gundula Janowitz. Do you have a preference Matthew?


I just gave it a re-listen. She's obviously brilliant (and that album contains the superlative 70s Also Sprach Zarathustra), but I like the orchestral sound on the Tomowa-Sintow better.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Handelian said:


> Definitely Janowitz. Absolute classic.


I think that Gundula Janowitz just shades it. But I'm with Matthew on the orchestral sound.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 62
LP#4191661









Beethoven: Missa solemnis, op. 123*

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Singverein, chorus
Lella Cuberli, soprano
Trudeliese Schmidt, contralto
Vinson Cole, tenor
Jose van Dam, bass
David Bell, organ

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September1985
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 80:15

*Review:* An increasingly familiar refrain as I make my way through the 80s set has been "this is better sounding than the 60s/70s alternative" and this one is no different. The sound is amazing, and quite a bit clearer than the JCK, while sacrificing none of the beautiful reverb of the chorus and deep tones of the orchestra. If anything, I also find the tempo more exciting, as it is around 4 minutes faster. The performances are at least the equal of the 60s, to my admittedly Philistine ears (with respect to choral works). I recommend this version ever so slightly over the 60s due to sound alone. It's also on one disc, so there's that, too.

*Rating: 9/10

Video:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 63
LP#4135881









Maurice Ravel, Bolero
Maurice Ravel, Rapsodie espagnole
Modest Mussorgsky (orch. Ravel), Pictures at an Exhibition
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, December 1985 (Bolero), February 1986 (Pictures), February 1987 (Rapsodie)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 64:31

*Review:* Bolero is Bolero. It's boring. The recording here is well done, with good dynamic range from soft to loud and precise playing. But it's still Bolero. The Rapsodie espagnole is more interesting, and was a nice addition that the prior collection from the vinyl era lacked.

Pictures is still not my favorite piece, but it is undeniably well played here. The sound is a distinct improvement over the 60s rendition. It has excellent percussion and the brass is crystal clear. It is a tad less exciting, though, despite being a bit faster than the prior recording. I can't quite put my finger on it, it just seems like in the slower parts there is slightly less intensity.

If I were rating pieces individually, I'd give Pictures an 8, Rapsodie a 7, Bolero a 6.

*Rating: 7/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 64
LP#4195991
*







*
Richard Strauss
Don Quixote, op. 35
Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, op. 28
Antonio Menses, cello
Wolfram Christ, viola
Leon Spierer, violin
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1986 (DQ), June 1986 (TE)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 58:32

*Review: *This recording has a lot to live up to, given the quality of the 60's recording. I think it succeeds. The sound quality is superb, with a wonderful feeling of space, lots of depth in the bass tones, and scads of detail. There is some beautiful cello sound, with the ragged vibrations of the strings and "inner voice" in evidence. If the prior performance is ever so slightly more exciting, this one has definitively better sound. So it's pretty much a wash. The Till Eulenspiegels is the equal of the early 70s performance as well. All told, an extraordinary late HVK/BPO collaboration, "Meyer-gate" notwithstanding.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 65
LP#4196101









Mozart, Requiem in D Minor K626
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Anna Tomowa-Sintow, soprano
Helga Müller-Molinari, contralto
Vinson Cole, tenor
Paata Burchuladze, bass
Wiener Singverein, chorus*

Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, May 1986
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 52:14

*Review:* I've become very partial to the 80s digital recordings with the VPO, and this is no exception. This is a very engrossing take on the Requiem, in no small part due to the luscious bass tones and great overall detail. As is my wont, I far prefer the heavier orchestral portions, such as the early portions and the Confutatis. DG has put out a HVK Requiem every decade, and there is an essentially linear increase in sound quality with the passage of time. The Dies Irae here has the most clarity and impact. Having listened intently to all three, I think this is the best of the bunch - but all three are worthy and enjoyable. I love the cover, too, I think it's the best of the three.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## inthemusiczone

There is a superlative live recording of Verklarte Nacht by Karajan/BPO out on Testament. If anything, it is even more searing than this superb studio rendition. I highly recommend you seek it out (it can sometimes be found relatively cheap on the Berkshire Record Outlet site, see link below). In fact, all the Testament live Karajan issues are essential listening -- you will experience a quite different beast from the Karajan studio creations - very, very exciting stuff, with an extraordinary intensity.

https://www.broinc.com


----------



## inthemusiczone

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 30
> LP#2530 527/485
> 
> View attachment 140362
> 
> 
> Arnold Schoenberg, Verklärte Nacht, op. 4; Pelleas und Melisande, op. 5
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 24-26 January 1974
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 73:31
> 
> *Review: *This record is legendary, and rightly so. Karajan self financed it when DG would not put up the money for recordings of the Second Viennese School. The results clearly indicate a work of passion for both conductor and orchestra. The playing is full-bodied and lush, but what makes it comprehensible is the unerring sense of pulse. I view this as similar to Strauss' Metamorphosen in this way. One could easily get lost and become unmoored while listening, but HVK/BPO do not let this happen. The sound world they create allows for some intensely moving passages, such as the Adagio of the Verklärte Nacht and the finale of the Pelleas. A masterpiece. Certainly in the top ten HVK/BPO recordings. I love the cover, too. By the way, appreciation of this piece is heightened by reading the poem on which it is based.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


There is a superlative live recording of Verklarte Nacht by Karajan/BPO out on Testament. If anything, it is even more searing than this superb studio rendition. I highly recommend you seek it out (it can sometimes be found relatively cheap on the Berkshire Record Outlet site, see link below). In fact, all the Testament live Karajan issues are essential listening -- you will experience a quite different beast from the Karajan studio creations - very, very exciting stuff, with an extraordinary intensity.

https://www.broinc.com


----------



## MatthewWeflen

inthemusiczone said:


> There is a superlative live recording of Verklarte Nacht by Karajan/BPO out on Testament. If anything, it is even more searing than this superb studio rendition. I highly recommend you seek it out (it can sometimes be found relatively cheap on the Berkshire Record Outlet site, see link below). In fact, all the Testament live Karajan issues are essential listening -- you will experience a quite different beast from the Karajan studio creations - very, very exciting stuff, with an extraordinary intensity.
> 
> https://www.broinc.com


I will seek it out!


----------



## ELbowe

Axter said:


> You mean this one, its with Wiener Symphoniker and you can spot a young Hanoncourt as cellist in the orchestra too.
> 
> The attention to detail of Karajan here is unbelievable


After watching this intriguing video the "man" has the right to wear that cool leather jacket and anything else he likes for that matter!! Thanks so much for adding the link.


----------



## starthrower

I watched Karajan's Don Carlo on YT last night. I thought it was great and I'd like to get the CDs even though it's cut. Herbie looked like he was already embalmed but he conducted an intense performance.


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 62
> 
> Beethoven: Missa solemnis, op. 123*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September1985
> 
> *Review:* An increasingly familiar refrain as I make my way through the 80s set has been "this is better sounding than the 60s/70s alternative" and this one is no different. The sound is amazing, and quite a bit clearer than the JCK, while sacrificing none of the beautiful reverb of the chorus and deep tones of the orchestra. If anything, I also find the tempo more exciting, as it is around 4 minutes faster. The performances are at least the equal of the 60s, to my admittedly Philistine ears (with respect to choral works). I recommend this version ever so slightly over the 60s due to sound alone. It's also on one disc, so there's that, too.


Yes, I think I agree the 80s one is better than the 60s. I had it, then rejected it, but came back to it and thought, you know, this is really forking good, in fact among the best. In retrospect, I'm puzzled why I ever thought otherwise!

It's original issue on CD was on two discs, annoyingly.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 66
LP#4196101









Mozart, Divertimento No. 17 K334
Serenade in D Major "Seranata notturna" K239
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1983 (Serenade), April 1987 (Divertimento)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 60:14
*
Review: *This disc is an amazing test case for how far digital recording advanced from the first half of the decade to the latter half. The Divertimento, recorded in 1987, is the best Mozart recording yet by HVK/BPO. It is just beautiful across the whole range of tonality, from the bass instruments to the strings, everything rings out crystal clear and in perfect balance. It's a sheer delight from beginning to end. The Serenade, recorded just 3.5 years prior, has a thick, bloated bottom end that obscures percussion detail and bass instrumentation. I actually had to turn it down because it was sort of assaulting my ears. Now, this isn't to say it's badly played, and the latter two movements do settle down into something more enjoyable, because the music is also lighter in orchestration than the beginning. The first piece is a 10. The last perhaps a 7.
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 66
> LP#4196101
> 
> View attachment 149785
> 
> 
> Mozart, Divertimento No. 17 K334
> Serenade in D Major "Seranata notturna" K239
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1983 (Serenade), April 1987 (Divertimento)
> Executive Producer: Günther Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 60:14
> *
> Review: *This disc is an amazing test case for how far digital recording advanced from the first half of the decade to the latter half. The Divertimento, recorded in 1987, is the best Mozart recording yet by HVK/BPO. It is just beautiful across the whole range of tonality, from the bass instruments to the strings, everything rings out crystal clear and in perfect balance. It's a sheer delight from beginning to end. The Serenade, recorded just 3.5 years prior, has a thick, bloated bottom end that obscures percussion detail and bass instrumentation. I actually had to turn it down because it was sort of assaulting my ears. Now, this isn't to say it's badly played, and the latter two movements do settle down into something more enjoyable, because the music is also lighter in orchestration than the beginning. The first piece is a 10. The last perhaps a 7.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


Quite by coincidence, I gave this CD a whirl a few days ago. I totally agree with your analysis and score of 10/10 on KV334. I continue to be baffled by the old consensus on Karajan's later performances. And also, this is a bit of an eye opener on K's Mozart, which according to the handed down lore, is sub-par ......


----------



## MatthewWeflen

FYI, there is a Karajan/Mozart documentary that the Karajan Institute just premiered on YouTube:






I haven't watched the whole thing yet, and it seems somewhat overblown, but it's loaded with interviews, including with Anna Tomowa-Sintow.


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## MatthewWeflen

And here, just in case anyone likes ogling audio equipment, is my new set of cans. Sony MDR-Z1R, fed by the Sony WM1A Walkman.


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## Knorf

Yeah, comparing Karajan directly to Mozart is a bit much...


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## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> Yeah, comparing Karajan directly to Mozart is a bit much...


I'm quite similar to Barack Obama, in that we both live in Chicago. Documentary pending.


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## BachIsBest

MatthewWeflen said:


> I'm quite similar to Barack Obama, in that we both live in Chicago. Documentary pending.


I would say the main difference is contained in the fact you start better threads on TC.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> Quite by coincidence, I gave this CD a whirl a few days ago. I totally agree with your analysis and score of 10/10 on KV334. I continue to be baffled by the old consensus on Karajan's later performances. And also, this is a bit of an eye opener on K's Mozart, which according to the handed down lore, is sub-par ......


The conclusion I am arriving at on HVK's Mozart is that his "big band" conception of it couldn't be realized by the recording technology of the 60s, aided and abetted by recording mainly at St. Moritz. The recordings get progressively better as time progresses, and the move to the Philharmonie thinned out the sound enough to bring things into balance. There is a similar arc of improvement in the Haydn - the EMI Haydn from the 70s is surpassed by the 80s digital.


----------



## Kyo

Just wanted to say that I've read almost all of this thread over the past couple of weeks and really enjoyed the reviews. I don't have a lot of Karajan in my collection, but my impression has long been that he catches a lot of flack simply because he was such a celebrity and he simply recorded a lot. That does not excuse more lackluster releases or unnecessary retreads, but I've long felt that this general antipathy toward him that I've seen in so many places doesn't do his work justice, either. This thread has been helpful in steering me toward the more interesting albums in his huge discography. So thanks for that, Matthew!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Kyo said:


> Just wanted to say that I've read almost all of this thread over the past couple of weeks and really enjoyed the reviews. I don't have a lot of Karajan in my collection, but my impression has long been that he catches a lot of flack simply because he was such a celebrity and he simply recorded a lot. That does not excuse more lackluster releases or unnecessary retreads, but I've long felt that this general antipathy toward him that I've seen in so many places doesn't do his work justice, either. This thread has been helpful in steering me toward the more interesting albums in his huge discography. So thanks for that, Matthew!


You're quite welcome, and welcome to TC - you might hold the record for time between join date and first comment!

Once I'm done with the 80s box, I plan to make a list of the must have albums from the whole big mess of recordings.

Which ones have you found most intriguing?


----------



## Knorf

I think the biggest surprises for me, in terms of running against "common" wisdom, were the quality of Karajan's Haydn in general, and how good so many of them 80s digital recordings are, especially Brahms and Beethoven, especially in the "Karajan Gold" remastering.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

I got turned on to the Haydn about a year ago, so that wasn't a surprise to me. I would say the thing this run through has impressed upon me is the general level of technical and artistic excellence of the VPO recordings. It's a pity he didn't live a bit longer, affording him the opportunity to record more with Vienna. I would have loved to have has a digital Sibelius cycle by HVK/VPO, for instance. Or a fresher, leaner Mendelssohn.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 67
LP#4236131









Richard Wagner
Overture to Tannhaüser
Siegfried-Idyll
Tristan und Isolde Prelude to Act 1
Tristan und Isolde Isoldes Liebestod
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Jessye Norman, soprano*

Recording: Live at Salzburg, Grosses Festspielhaus, August 1987
Executive and Recording Producer: Günther Breest
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns, Wolfgang Mitlehner
Total time: 54:12

*Review: *This Tannhaüser overture does not meet my expectations for a HVK-conducted performance. It is a full minute slower than the other versions I have, and feel bland and lifeless. With that said, the rest of this disc is sterling. The Siegrfried-Idyll is beautifully played. The Tristan Prelude is terrific, and is the highlight of the disc for me. It exudes drama and emotion. The fact that it is a live performance only makes it more special - it must have been an incredible experience. Jessye Norman is excellent in the Liebestod, and the VPO modulates around her voice wonderfully.

So all in all, the Tannhaüser Overture is a dud, while the rest of the disc ranges from very good to great.

*Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

For reference, this is the finest Tannhaüser Overture I think HVK ever committed to recording.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 68-69
LP#4196161/CD4776336/CD4576892









J. Strauss Jr. Die Fledermaus Overture
Josef Strauss Spharenklange op. 235
J. Strauss Jr. Die Fledermaus Overture
Josef Strauss Delirien-Walzer op. 212
J. Strauss Jr. Vergugungzug op. 281
Johann and Josef Strauss Pizzicato-Polka
J. Strauss Sr. Beliebte Annen-Polka op. 137
J. Strauss Jr. Unter Donner und Blitz op. 324; Fruhlungsstimmen op. 410
Josef Strauss Ohne Sorgen! op. 271
J. Strauss Jr. An der schonen, blauen Donau op. 314
J. Strauss Sr. Radetzky Marsch op. 228
J. Strauss Jr. Kaiser Walzer op. 437; Der Zigeunerbaron: Overture; Perpetuum mobile op. 257
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Kathleen Battle, soprano*

Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, January 1987
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 1:31:24

*Review: *As best I can tell, the critical consensus is that the greatest New Year's Concert Recordings are the ones starting with this one and going through Abbado and Kleiber. I see no reason here to dispute that. Firstly, as far as audio quality, it is just terrific. The level of detail is exceptional, which is especially impressive for a raucous live recording (which certainly adds to the Radetzky March). Then, the playing is on another level, surpassing the recordings earlier in the decade by HVK with the BPO. There really isn't much reason to seek out those recordings given that this one exists. As good as the first disc is, it's the second where things take off into legendary status. The Blue Danube, Radetzky, and Kaiser waltzes are really "best of breed" superlative. The Gypsy Baron overture is also really great. It's amazing to me that the VPO can play these war horses with such feeling, and I wonder if it didn't have something to do with the aged Karajan physically toughing out such a long concert.

In summary, not to be missed. A flawless argument for this repertoire.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Anyone interested in complete operas will be pleased to find a recording of similar vintage, just released by the official Karajan YouTube channel.


----------



## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 68-69
> LP#4196161/CD4776336/CD4576892
> 
> View attachment 150054
> 
> 
> Josef Strauss Spharenklange op. 235
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


*

Today this concert is still regarded as the best New Year's Concert of VPO!
I saw an interview with Clemens Hellsberger (former violinist and Chairman of VPO) where he said the "Spharenklaenge" performed back then is the best they ever performed. You can even see in the vid. Karajan was easily moved himself, min 10:04.*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 70
LP#4233741









Mozart, Symphony No. 29 K201
Symphony No. 39 K543
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, February 1987 (29), September 1987 (39)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 50:08

*Review: *I kind of wonder what went into the decision to make this recording. Was it the beginning of a new digital "Late Mozart" cycle? The existence of the new digital Brahms cycle seems to point in this direction. It's a shame it wasn't finished, because the digital Haydn and Brahms were both extremely worthy endeavors, and the digital Beethoven is not without its benefits, as well. Anyway, I would say that 39 is slightly more successful than 29, but both feature very rich detailed sound that improves upon both the 70s analog from the Philharmonie (39) and the 60s analog JCK (29) recordings. The 80s No. 29 is slightly slower but not to a really noticeable degree. The 80s No. 39 is significantly slower across all 4 movements, but not plodding by any means. The level of detail and the forward momentum keeps things lively and interesting. Instrument groups are well balanced and all parts are quite audible. It's very nice big band Mozart, at least the equal and probably superior to the 70s set, and a preview of what might have been.
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 71
LP#4231411









Brahms, Symphony No. 1 op. 68
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1987
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 44:19

*Review: *I don't know if it's my new equipment, but this recording has leapt in my estimation. I now think it is every bit the equal of the 60s, perhaps even better. The sound quality is a small step up. Things that really get me are good miking on tympani and good definition on contrabass (e.g. the ragged sound of the bow vibrating against the strings, something that contrabass really reveals because of the long wavelengths of the sounds). Both are present in spades. The brass has a really detailed presence, too, with the bleating and vibration of the mouthpieces in evidence. Add to this level of detail the crisp performances here, and you've got a disc that is an unadulterated pleasure from start to finish. When I'm done with this box, I think I'll be going back to some of the discs from the previous sets that I pooh-poohed for flabby bass and see if my new headphones reveal more detail in those regions.

This disc is a triumph. It is probably the only one in my collection that gives me the same feeling as hearing this live - another instance in which the contrabasses positively mesmerized me.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 71
> LP#4231411
> 
> View attachment 150164
> 
> 
> Brahms, Symphony No. 1 op. 68
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> *
> Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, January 1987
> Executive Producer: Günther Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 44:19
> 
> *Review: *I don't know if it's my new equipment, but this recording has leapt in my estimation. I now think it is every bit the equal of the 60s, perhaps even better. The sound quality is a small step up. Things that really get me are good miking on tympani and good definition on contrabass (e.g. the ragged sound of the bow vibrating against the strings, something that contrabass really reveals because of the long wavelengths of the sounds). Both are present in spades. The brass has a really detailed presence, too, with the bleating and vibration of the mouthpieces in evidence. Add to this level of detail the crisp performances here, and you've got a disc that is an unadulterated pleasure from start to finish. When I'm done with this box, I think I'll be going back to some of the discs from the previous sets that I pooh-poohed for flabby bass and see if my new headphones reveal more detail in those regions.
> 
> This disc is a triumph. It is probably the only one in my collection that gives me the same feeling as hearing this live - another instance in which the contrabasses positively mesmerized me.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


I told you his 80s Brahms was his best. Lol.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Merl said:


> I told you his 80s Brahms was his best. Lol.


Brahms 1, perhaps. 2, no. We'll see about 3 and 4.


----------



## GrosseFugue

HenryPenfold said:


> Yes! That's it! And I'd forgotten about the non-plussedcellist!!


_*NONPLUSSED CELLIST*_ is something that needs to be on a T-shirt. 

Would you kindly point out where time-wise in the vid Mr. Harnoncourt appears?

PS: That video of Karajan is truly genius at work. Makes think of a rocket scientist putting together a rocket while regular folks look on, wondering how he knows exactly what to do to make it SOAR.


----------



## GrosseFugue

MatthewWeflen said:


> Review: I will cop to not being all that into Mahler. His symphonies are just too long, and I often find myself engaged by the first movements, only to have my attention wander by the later ones. I have tried renditions by Abbado, Kubelik, Bernstein, Karajan, Mehta, and Solti. Anyway, this recording is well done, as far as I can tell. Instrument groups and percussion are clear, and the playing is good. The adagio seems well done, and the final movement has some excitement. Comparing this to the Bernstein 5th I own, I can find nothing to recommend one over the other, and stylistically they seem quite similar. They're both wonderfully played and too long. If these symphonies were about half the length, I would be a fan.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 8/10*


_*"They're both wonderfully played and too long"*_ That's pretty much priceless. If you ever do a retrospective -- like a highlights reel of your reviews -- that needs to go on there. :lol:

I've had a love/hate relationship with Mahler. Taken in parts he can be pretty amazing. But as a whole there's too much wallowing in neurosis and "woe-is-me-ism."

Recently though I've rediscovered him via his Lieder. He wrote some pretty (and sad) songs. Love this album by Christiane Karg. Just FYI.


----------



## bharbeke

The 1987 New Year's Eve concert sounded very fine, but some of the choices made for Sony's video release were strange. I would rather have seen the performers and audience throughout than have random dancing and horses from time to time.


----------



## HenryPenfold

GrosseFugue said:


> _*NONPLUSSED CELLIST*_ is something that needs to be on a T-shirt.
> 
> Would you kindly point out where time-wise in the vid Mr. Harnoncourt appears?
> 
> PS: That video of Karajan is truly genius at work. Makes think of a rocket scientist putting together a rocket while regular folks look on, wondering how he knows exactly what to do to make it SOAR.


As a Karanist, I must say watch the whole video and all will be revealed ....

P.S. Rocket science is easy, it's the ballistics that's the tough bit.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> The 1987 New Year's Eve concert sounded very fine, but some of the choices made for Sony's video release were strange. I would rather have seen the performers and audience throughout than have random dancing and horses from time to time.


Definitely agreed, though I think those were the choices for the live TV broadcast.


----------



## wkasimer

Knorf said:


> I think the biggest surprises for me, in terms of running against "common" wisdom, were the quality of Karajan's Haydn in general, and how good so many of them 80s digital recordings are, especially Brahms and Beethoven, especially in the "Karajan Gold" remastering.


I agree about his digital Beethoven and Brahms, but not so much about his Haydn. The Paris Symphonies are fine in the outer movements, but the middle movements, particularly the menuets, really plod.


----------



## Knorf

wkasimer said:


> I agree about his digital Beethoven and Brahms, but not so much about his Haydn. The Paris Symphonies are fine in the outer movements, but the middle movements, particularly the menuets, really plod.


Actually I kind of agree about the minuets. However, I typically like Karajan Haydn slow movements, and love the outer movements.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> Brahms 1, perhaps. 2, no. We'll see about 3 and 4.


Really? That's one of my favorite 2s.

My frankenHvKcycle is 60s 1, 80s 2, VPO 3, and 70s 4.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> Actually I kind of agree about the minuets. However, I typically like Karajan Haydn slow movements, and love the outer movements.


Yep. I really became a convert to the slower menuettos. They really emphasize the beauty of the symphonic constructions.


----------



## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Really? That's one of my favorite 2s.
> 
> My frankenHvKcycle is 60s 1, 80s 2, VPO 3, and 70s 4.


That's probably mine as well, but I admit I'm torn between the 60s and 80s #1 and 70s and 80s #4. But like you I'm openly a fan of the Decca VPO #3.

ETA: certainly none of them suck.


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 72
LP#4236101









Mozart, Divertimento No. 15 K287
Serenade No. 13 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" K525
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, September 1987 (Divert.), February 1981 (Serenade)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 55:48

*Review: *This Divertimento 15 is absolutely outstanding. It blows the 60s recording out of the water - it's not even close. The sound quality is stupendous, and the playing is light, beauteous, lilting, everything I look for in Mozart. The things possible by 1987 in terms of digital recording are wondrous.

The Serenade is a reissue of the same 1981 recording I praised on 80s disc 19. It's easily my go-to recording for this piece, and never fails to bring a smile to my face when I play it.

But how should I rate the disc? I would much rather have two new recordings than this mix. I can understand how this would be a useful pairing for a CD consumer in 1987, because it's all Mozart and not the mish-mash of the previous album (it included Prokofiev and Grieg). Both recordings are 10s. But the disc is a 9 for me, because of what could have taken the Serenade's place, but didn't. I want more digital HVK/BPO Mozart.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 73
LP#4192411









Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, op. 35
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin*

Recording: Salzburg Grosses Festspeilhaus, August 1988
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Dr. Steven Paul
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 38:36

Review: For a live recording, this is pretty astonishing from a technical standpoint. The orchestra is captured in full body, but Mutter's violin is bright and forward in the mix as well. Very, very detailed. Now, I have previously stated that I prefer the HVK/BPO/Ferras recording in the 60s. I think I still do by a hair because the more forward miking on the violin soloist here leads to some screechy moments. But this is still a great performance, and outside of those few moments the sound on offer is sumptuous. The orchestra sounds quite a bit better here.

The disc is a bit of a raw deal financially at 38 minutes. They could have included all sorts of other complete pieces.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 74
LP#4274851









Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 1, op. 23
Scriabin, Four Pieces op. 51; Etude in C sharp minor, op. 42 no. 5
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Yevgeny Kissin, piano*

Recording: live at Berlin Philharmonie, December 1988
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 52:35

*Review:* Another sterling live recording, this time at the Philharmonie. The sound quality on offer here rises to the highest levels I've described, capturing inner voices, low and ragged string vibrations, and one of the best representations of piano I've ever heard. The performance of the Concerto is exciting, to boot. Then, we get the added value of the Scriabin solo piano pieces. I don't know them well enough to compare them to others, or to know if there are any bum notes, but they certainly seem well played.

All in all, a high value set of exciting performances, recorded impeccably. I have no substantial criticism. Totally unimpeachable.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


----------



## Malx

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 74
> LP#4274851
> 
> View attachment 150249
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 1, op. 23
> Scriabin, Four Pieces op. 51; Etude in C sharp minor, op. 42 no. 5
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Yevgeny Kissin, piano*
> 
> Recording: live at Berlin Philharmonie, December 1988
> Executive Producer: Günther Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 52:35
> 
> *Review:* Another sterling live recording, this time at the Philharmonie. The sound quality on offer here rises to the highest levels I've described, capturing inner voices, low and ragged string vibrations, and one of the best representations of piano I've ever heard. The performance of the Concerto is exciting, to boot. Then, we get the added value of the Scriabin solo piano pieces. I don't know them well enough to compare them to others, or to know if there are any bum notes, but they certainly seem well played.
> 
> All in all, a high value set of exciting performances, recorded impeccably. I have no substantial criticism. Totally unimpeachable.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos: *


I've always enjoyed Kissin's rendition of this old warhorse and the orchestra seem to be on form too.


----------



## Axter

^^
My wife enjoys this record a lot. She wouldn’t listen to any other Tchaikovsky’s 1st Piano concerto recordings out there.
I also find it a great recording.


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## bharbeke

I see that we are just a few discs away from the end of the 1980's set. It will take me a little time to get through Don Giovanni and the Tchaikovsky/Scriabin from recent days, but it's a little bittersweet to see the project conclude. Do you have plans for what you want to hear next, Matthew, or will you just follow your whim?


----------



## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> I see that we are just a few discs away from the end of the 1980's set. It will take me a little time to get through Don Giovanni and the Tchaikovsky/Scriabin from recent days, but it's a little bittersweet to see the project conclude. Do you have plans for what you want to hear next, Matthew, or will you just follow your whim?


Well, if there is an appetite for it, I can review the EMI/Decca HVK recordings in my collection. Those would make sense for this thread.

I also have the RCA Living Stereo Vol. 1 box set, and The Decca Sound box set (I like box sets). Those might be better suited to a Grand Box Set thread.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Really? That's one of my favorite 2s.
> 
> My frankenHvKcycle is 60s 1, 80s 2, VPO 3, and 70s 4.


I gave it another listen. I still think 60s is slightly better, but 80s is quite good.


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## Kyo

MatthewWeflen said:


> You're quite welcome, and welcome to TC - you might hold the record for time between join date and first comment!
> 
> Once I'm done with the 80s box, I plan to make a list of the must have albums from the whole big mess of recordings.
> 
> Which ones have you found most intriguing?


Haha, yeah - I was surprised I already an account here! :lol:

I started looking into Karajan's discography when I recently decided that I should get his Mahler and 2nd Viennese School recordings. I was quite impressed by those. Other than the '70s Brahms symphonies set, a very early classical purchase of mine, for the longest time the only Karajan items I had bought deliberately were the Honegger symphonies disc and the excellent 2CD Liszt compilation. Only recently did I get the Beethoven piano concertos with Weissenberg (while exploring the latter's discography) and the '60s Beethoven cycle.

The number of alternative recordings of pieces and varying couplings on CD releases can quickly get overwhelming with Karajan, so your thread combined with some Discogs research was very helpful in figuring out which combination made the most sense. For example, that weird Mozart/Grieg/Prokofiev disc from the '80s - all of this material is available in smarter configurations these days. The Grieg is on the abovementioned set, the Prokofiev is available coupled with the classic 5th symphony and the Mozart got coupled with the Serenata notturna KV 239 and the Divertimento KV 334, bringing all three of these lighter '80s Mozart recordings together on one disc.

Some very nice releases I got recently based on this thread were the Sibelius symphonies set and a smart 2CD collection of Sibelius and Grieg orchestral works that combines all of the smaller pieces he recorded by these two in the best versions. I also got a similarly smart set of Debussy and Ravel works (with the Saint-Saens organ symphony as well) and a Bartok disc with the Concerto for Orchestra and the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta - smart compilations all around. I generally find this material more interesting than the usual Germanic repertoire and I liked what I heard of Karajan's takes on it.

Anyway, having said that, I was quite impressed with what I heard of the '80s Brahms and Beethoven cycles and just ordered a cheap copy of the latter. I also have all the CDs of his analog Strauss recordings in the mail and when I'm in the mood, I'll also give his Bruckner and Tchaikovsky a try.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Kyo said:


> Haha, yeah - I was surprised I already an account here! :lol:
> 
> I started looking into Karajan's discography when I recently decided that I should get his Mahler and 2nd Viennese School recordings. I was quite impressed by those. Other than the '70s Brahms symphonies set, a very early classical purchase of mine, for the longest time the only Karajan items I had bought deliberately were the Honegger symphonies disc and the excellent 2CD Liszt compilation. Only recently did I get the Beethoven piano concertos with Weissenberg (while exploring the latter's discography) and the '60s Beethoven cycle.
> 
> The number of alternative recordings of pieces and varying couplings on CD releases can quickly get overwhelming with Karajan, so your thread combined with some Discogs research was very helpful in figuring out which combination made the most sense. For example, that weird Mozart/Grieg/Prokofiev disc from the '80s - all of this material is available in smarter configurations these days. The Grieg is on the abovementioned set, the Prokofiev is available coupled with the classic 5th symphony and the Mozart got coupled with the Serenata notturna KV 239 and the Divertimento KV 334, bringing all three of these lighter '80s Mozart recordings together on one disc.
> 
> Some very nice releases I got recently based on this thread were the Sibelius symphonies set and a smart 2CD collection of Sibelius and Grieg orchestral works that combines all of the smaller pieces he recorded by these two in the best versions. I also got a similarly smart set of Debussy and Ravel works (with the Saint-Saens organ symphony as well) and a Bartok disc with the Concerto for Orchestra and the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta - smart compilations all around. I generally find this material more interesting than the usual Germanic repertoire and I liked what I heard of Karajan's takes on it.
> 
> Anyway, having said that, I was quite impressed with what I heard of the '80s Brahms and Beethoven cycles and just ordered a cheap copy of the latter. I also have all the CDs of his analog Strauss recordings in the mail and when I'm in the mood, I'll also give his Bruckner and Tchaikovsky a try.


The Bruckner and Tchaikovsky both have new CD box sets that include a hi-res Blu-Ray Audio.

By far the best deal in absolute terms however is the "Karajan Symphony Edition." It contains full Beethoven (77), Brahms, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Bruckner, and Tchaikovsky (70s) cycles, along with late Mozart (70s) and late Haydn (80s). And it can all be had for around $60.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Kyo said:


> Haha, yeah - I was surprised I already an account here! :lol:
> 
> I started looking into Karajan's discography when I recently decided that I should get his Mahler and 2nd Viennese School recordings. I was quite impressed by those. Other than the '70s Brahms symphonies set, a very early classical purchase of mine, for the longest time the only Karajan items I had bought deliberately were the Honegger symphonies disc and the excellent 2CD Liszt compilation. Only recently did I get the Beethoven piano concertos with Weissenberg (while exploring the latter's discography) and the '60s Beethoven cycle.
> 
> The number of alternative recordings of pieces and varying couplings on CD releases can quickly get overwhelming with Karajan, so your thread combined with some Discogs research was very helpful in figuring out which combination made the most sense. For example, that weird Mozart/Grieg/Prokofiev disc from the '80s - all of this material is available in smarter configurations these days. The Grieg is on the abovementioned set, the Prokofiev is available coupled with the classic 5th symphony and the Mozart got coupled with the Serenata notturna KV 239 and the Divertimento KV 334, bringing all three of these lighter '80s Mozart recordings together on one disc.
> 
> Some very nice releases I got recently based on this thread were the Sibelius symphonies set and a smart 2CD collection of Sibelius and Grieg orchestral works that combines all of the smaller pieces he recorded by these two in the best versions. I also got a similarly smart set of Debussy and Ravel works (with the Saint-Saens organ symphony as well) and a Bartok disc with the Concerto for Orchestra and the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta - smart compilations all around. I generally find this material more interesting than the usual Germanic repertoire and I liked what I heard of Karajan's takes on it.
> 
> Anyway, having said that, I was quite impressed with what I heard of the '80s Brahms and Beethoven cycles and just ordered a cheap copy of the latter. I also have all the CDs of his analog Strauss recordings in the mail and when I'm in the mood, I'll also give his Bruckner and Tchaikovsky a try.


The Bruckner and Tchaikovsky both have new CD box sets that include a hi-res Blu-Ray Audio.

By far the best deal in absolute terms however (granting that it is traditional German repertoire for the most part) is the "Karajan Symphony Edition." It contains full Beethoven (77), Brahms, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Bruckner, and Tchaikovsky (70s) cycles, along with late Mozart (70s) and late Haydn (80s). And it can all be had for around $60.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 75
CD#4276112 (no LP release)









Bruckner, Symphony No. 5 (1890 version, Haas Edition)
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, November 1988
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 82:58

*Review: *It's taken me a while to compare this to the 1970s analog recording with the BPO. They're both excellent. Before, I thought the 80s was superior. Now I think it's the 70s - I think when I wrote the 70s review I was swayed by the detail in the climaxes of the 80s, which is indeed a high point. But now, I think the overall intensity and drive of the 70s recording gives it the edge, even with slightly less detail (it's not a sonic runaway for the 80s by any means). Both recordings have a beautiful Adagio and a thrilling climax, but the 70s gives the first two movements more fire. This one is a bit more serene and contemplative in those movements, and a bit less bombastic in the percussion. I wonder if the venue had a role in this as well - the dry sound of the Philharmonie can really emphasize percussion. Anyway, your preference may well be dictated by what you're looking for in your Bruckner. Both are worthy of investigation.

*Rating: 9/10

Video:
*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 76
LP#4274961









Brahms Symphony No. 3, op. 90
Brahms Tragic Overture, op. 81
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, October 1988; February 1983 (overture)
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz, Werner Mayer (overture)
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 48:13

*Review: *A challenge in reviewing Brahms 3 is how utterly likeable a symphony it is. Am I thrilling to it because of Brahms, or because of the performance? Well, there is a definite synergy between the two here. Sound quality is excellent, typical of late 80s digital recording technology. Detail is quite good, and bass definition also excels. This recording has a lot going on in the climaxes, but never loses control and breaks up. Sound quality is different than the 60s, and it comes down to mic placement, I think. The 60s recording in the JCK has the feeling of a good stereo recording with a microphone placed in front of the orchestra, as if you're sitting in row 5 let's say. This approach leads to more hall reverb. The 80s definitely seems multi-miked, and feels as though you are on the podium. Your mileage may vary, but I tend to prefer the latter approach, because it makes individual instrument groups easier to pick out. For me, this helps me to experience more of the music and less of the space the music is being played in. Anyway, it's very engaging as a recording and I find myself being drawn in by it every time I listen. Along with the first, it's a highlight of this digital cycle.

The Tragic Overture is the same well done recording from 1983 that was a part of Double Concerto disc (#38). It's not quite as good technically but is still of high quality. I wish they would have padded this with a new performance, say of the Academic Festival Overture.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 77
LP#4274971









Brahms Symphony No. 4, op. 98
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recording: Berlin Philharmonie, October 1988
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 41:55

*Review:* I'm going to reverse what I said about Brahms 3 here. I actually like the slightly more removed sound of the 60s recording a tiny bit better, because of how integrated the whole is. Nonetheless, this is a superb recording and performance, and it does possess the same increased level of detail that the digital recording affords, and the "dryness" that the venue brings. I think my preference may spring from the different nature of some of the passages - there is a lyrical quality to the 4th, from the opening phrase, that favors a bit of a softer approach (the climaxes are terrific, though). I can't really fault this recording, I just find the 60s edges it out a tad. So my HVK Brahms FrankenCycle would be 1-80s/2-60s/3-80s/4-60s. 70s is not bad, but the fuller sound is better technically represented in the digital 80s recordings.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*1980's Disc 78
LP#4292261









Bruckner, Symphony No. 7 (Haas edition)
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recording: Vienna Musikverein, Grosser Saal, April 1989
Executive Producer: Günther Breest
Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Total time: 66:06

*Review: *I think I am able to divorce my evaluation of this recording from my knowledge that it is HVK's last. Of course, we all might want to invest it wish some special attributes because of this. But there is no need. This is an astounding achievement both technically and artistically. The Allegro opens like a mythical being descending from the clouds upon a mystical land. The Adagio is both fiery and beauteous. The 3rd and 4th movements throb with romanticism. This would be a recording any artist would be proud of, whether it was their first or last. Sound quality is out of this world - perfectly detailed, perfectly noiseless, full-bodied and well rounded - it can slam you in the face with brass, rumble your body with a contrabass, and tickle you with a pizzicato string in equal measure.

I have no idea as to the state of mind of the orchestra as they played. They certainly seem possessed by great passion. Richard Osborne in his Karajan bio writes this: "He... recorded it with an artlessness, an unaffected plainness - even, at times, a certain roguish coarseness, apt to Bruckner - which was light years away from what 'a Karajan performance' was by now usually thought to be. ... For me, none of Karajan's recordings brings back more vividly than this Bruckner Seventh the man I knew in those last years: simple, without taint of vanity or 'side,' impressive without in any way wishing to impress. Since Karajan was also the construct that was 'Karajan,' I have no doubt he was also the reverse of all these things. But that was not the aspect I encountered. One speaks as one finds." Now, Osborne is obviously a fan, and may be appreciating Karajan through rose-tinted glasses. But the recording is undoubtedly one for the ages.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos: *


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## HenryPenfold

What a recording to end on!

A definite 10/10
Many thanks for this incredible survey, Matthew :tiphat:


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## MatthewWeflen

You're welcome, Henry.

*Thoughts on Karajan 1980s*

Received wisdom is that Karajan's digital output is somehow lesser than his previous, and especially his 60s, output. I think this is informed by a few recordings and a lot of prejudice/Karajan fatigue. Yes, the digital Planets was a bit bland. Yes, the digital St. Saens "Orgel" had bizarre effects and mixes, that ultimately didn't work. The Offenbach Overtures disc was a slog. But there is so much more that actually did work! Remastering has also apparently done these recordings a great service, rescuing poorly mixed and mastered discs that had been poorly received and showing us how well they were actually captured.

If you had to get 5 discs from this decade, there are some obvious choices:

The Alpensinfonie is on the top shelf of all recordings of the work, and the remaster reveals it to be even better than was though upon initial release.

I think Karajan's Haydn is underrated, and the Haydn 83/86 disc is my pick for the best of the bunch.

The live Mahler 9 is also generally held to be among the very best recordings of the work.

The 1987 New Year's Concert in Vienna has a special energy and sumptuous sound.

The 1989 Bruckner 7 with the VPO is sheer magic on a disc.

That would just be a Top 5. The Kissin Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto, the Mutter/Menses Brahms Double Concerto, the Mutter Mendelssohn/Bruch concerto disc, The digital Eroica and Beethoven 8 with overtures, The Dvorak 9, the digital R. Strauss, and more, are also top shelf.

I personally think the 70s were HVK/BPO's best decade, but there was not a strong dropoff in quality, and the technical quality improved slightly. Indeed, looking at all three decades against each other, the general level of quality is extremely stable.


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## Knorf

Indeed, thanks for the overview. It's been fun, and educational!


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## Eclectic Al

Just to add to all the thanks.

It's a pity, though, that in all your diligence you could not have found a Sibelius 3 that no one had noticed before.


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## MatthewWeflen

Eclectic Al said:


> Just to add to all the thanks.
> 
> It's a pity, though, that in all your diligence you could not have found a Sibelius 3 that no one had noticed before.


I looked! Alas, HVK never set one to tape, with any of his orchestras. I do like the Colin Davis and Okko Kamu recordings of 3, and usually go to them when I do a Sibelius cycle. Rattle/BPO is fine, too.

I actually listened to the EMI HVK/BPO Sibelius 1 just now while reading. It's just as good as I remembered, especially the finale. Cosmic.


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## Malx

Simply another thank you for your time and effort - I've certainly enjoyed reading your comments.
My finger is still hovering over the buy button of the Karajan Symphony Edition Box set of seventies recordings.


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## MatthewWeflen

Malx said:


> Simply another thank you for your time and effort - I've certainly enjoyed reading your comments.
> My finger is still hovering over the buy button of the Karajan Symphony Edition Box set of seventies recordings.


DO IT, Malx!

I'd hate to see all stock go away and the prices jump like so many other box sets have.


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## bharbeke

I found the recent Brahms Symphony No. 4 in this thread to be excellent.

Thanks for all the great posts and thoughts, Matthew, and I'll be on the lookout for any Grand threads in the future.


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## MatthewWeflen

*Statistics*

View attachment karajan ratings.pdf


*1960s Average: 8.2125
1970s Average: 8.507
1980s Average: 8.8493* (!)

I am genuinely surprised about the 80s ending up the best box in my ratings, as I expected the 70s to do so. But the 70s box had a few notable stinkers in it (e.g. 4 Seasons and other Baroque discs, Carl Orff) while the 80s box mostly steered clear of absolute disasters. 
*
Overall Average: 8.529*

This accords with my general impression. I think HVK had a very high batting average with his recordings. Would, say, Carlos Kleiber have batted at a higher average? Perhaps. But then he only had 20 at bats or so. HVK kept going up to the plate and kept hitting consistently. Mostly doubles, many home runs, a few grand slams. There were of course the occasional strikeouts and double plays (to extend the metaphor), but he produced far more value for the team (Classical Music) than not.


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## MatthewWeflen

I wasn't able to easily load an excel spreadsheet into the forum, alas.


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## Axter

Also thanks from my side Matthew. 
I am a Sir Georg Solti fan but enjoyed and truly admired this thread and the time you’ve taken sharing your findings, which are eye-opening and educational!
I’ve mentioned few times in this forum that Karajan is always my first choice when I am listening to a new piece I am not familiar with, as his interpretations are to me “truest to composer’s score” with the addition of his signature “Karajan big band sound”.
Thereafter, I explore other conductors and orchestras for the same piece till I find my favourite setting, and return back to Karajan more than not. 
This thread confirms and highlights why Karajan was who he was, a flawless conductor!


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## MatthewWeflen

Axter said:


> Also thanks from my side Matthew.
> I am a Sir Georg Solti fan but enjoyed and truly admired this thread and the time you've taken sharing your findings, which are eye-opening and educational!
> I've mentioned few times in this forum that Karajan is always my first choice when I am listening to a new piece I am not familiar with, as his interpretations are to me "truest to composer's score" with the addition of his signature "Karajan big band sound".
> Thereafter, I explore other conductors and orchestras for the same piece till I find my favourite setting, and return back to Karajan more than not.
> This thread confirms and highlights why Karajan was who he was, a flawless conductor!


I wouldn't go as far as "flawless." I would say "consistently successful with few failures."


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## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> I wouldn't go as far as "flawless." I would say "consistently successful with few failures."


I agree with this assessment, adding that his peaks soar as high as any of the best.


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## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> I agree with this assessment, adding that his peaks soar as high as any of the best.


If you were required to choose ten HVK recordings to preserve (with the rest being destroyed), which would they be?


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## bharbeke

The question was not directed at me, but I tried to pick my top 10 Karajan recordings. I got it down to 11 (or 16, depending on how you count the Haydn). I would preserve:

Vivaldi: Four Seasons (with Schwalbe)
Haydn: Paris Symphonies from 1980's set
Mozart: Serenade No. 6 from 1968
Beethoven: Fidelio with Helga Dernesch
Mendelssohn: Hebrides Overture
Schumann: Piano Concerto with Zimerman
Brahms: Violin Concerto with Mutter 1981
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition 1986
Borodin: Polovtsian Dances
Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake Suite
Strauss: Alpine Symphony

It's tough to cut any of them, as Karajan's version is way ahead of its nearest competition for me in all of these cases.


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## Brahmsianhorn

R. Strauss, Tod und Verklarung, Metamorphosen (70s)

Donizetti, Lucia di Lammermoor (1955 with Callas)

Mozart, Die Zauberflote (1951)

Brahms, Ein Deutsches Requiem (1947)

Grieg/Sibelius, Peer Gynt suites, Finlandia, etc (80s)

Honegger, Symphonies 2 & 3 (70s)

Bruckner 7th (70s DG)

Mahler 9th (live 1982)

R. Strauss, Also sprach Zarathustra (70s)

Schoenberg/Berg/Webern box set


.


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## Knorf

Top 10 favorite Karajan recordings? Wow, tough choice. Hmmm. Let's give it a go.

Strauss: _Ein Heldenleben_ (DG, 1959)
Brahms: Symphony No. 3 (Decca, 1961)
Leoncavallo: _Pagliacci_ (DG, 1965)
Wagner: _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ (DG, 1970)
Schönberg: Variations for Orchestra (DG, 1973)
Strauss: _Also sprach Zarathustra_ (DG, 1973)
Sibelius: _En saga_, Op. 9 (EMI, 1976)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 7 (DG, 1977)
Sibelius: Symphony No. 6 (EMI, 1980)
Beethoven: _Missa solemnis_ (DG, 1986)

That's today. Tomorrow could be different.

ETA: wait, you said 10 to preserve, the rest destroyed ... that's pretty different, since it's not just my tastes at stake...


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## MatthewWeflen

bharbeke said:


> The question was not directed at me, but I tried to pick my top 10 Karajan recordings. I got it down to 11 (or 16, depending on how you count the Haydn). I would preserve:
> 
> Vivaldi: Four Seasons (with Schwalbe)
> Haydn: Paris Symphonies from 1980's set
> Mozart: Serenade No. 6 from 1968
> Beethoven: Fidelio with Helga Dernesch
> Mendelssohn: Hebrides Overture
> Schumann: Piano Concerto with Zimerman
> Brahms: Violin Concerto with Mutter 1981
> Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition 1986
> Borodin: Polovtsian Dances
> Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake Suite
> Strauss: Alpine Symphony
> 
> It's tough to cut any of them, as Karajan's version is way ahead of its nearest competition for me in all of these cases.


Most of these strike me as fine choices. But the 70s 4 Seasons with Schwalbe????!?!?

I think I will be reviewing the EMI with ASM as a contrast. It's orders of magnitude better.


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## MatthewWeflen

Interesting that both Knorf and BH chose the 70s BPO Bruckner 7 over the 1989 VPO. 

I would have to give this one more thought. But off the top of my head, the albums I would save:

Decca/VPO Planets 1961
80s Alpensinfonie
70s Also Sprach Zarathustra
1989 Bruckner 7 VPO
60s Sibelius 6/7
70s Beethoven 3

Those are the ones that leap out to me. But I feel like I need a Beethoven 9 in there, some more Sibelius, some Brahms, some Tchaikovsky... argh.


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## BachIsBest

MatthewWeflen said:


> Interesting that both Knorf and BH chose the 70s BPO Bruckner 7 over the 1989 VPO.


Yeah, that surprised me too. I might take the 70s 8th over the 80s one but definitely prefer the VPO 7.


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## Fat Bob

Just wanted to add my thanks for this magnificent thread, a wonderful thread that has sent me back to some recordings I haven’t listened to for a while such as the 80s Haydn. 

As for a Karajan top 10, that’s going to need a bit of thought...


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> I wouldn't go as far as "flawless." I would say "consistently successful with few failures."


OK near flawless then 

My top 10 of Karajan would be:

1. Beethoven Eroica - BPO 80ies cycle.
2. Tchaikovsky 6 - VPO
3. Schumann/Grieg Piano Concerto with Zimerman.
4. Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto 1 with Kissin.
5, VPO New Year's concert.
6, Beethoven 7th, 80ies cycle _(and this thanks to you and this thread, here was the first time I heard it)_
7, Bruckner 7, VPO.
8, Tchaikovsky 5, VPO.
9, Beethoven 8, 80ies.
10, Tchaikovsky 4, VPO.

Needless to say I am very fond of the 80ies recordings of Karajan....


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## bharbeke

MatthewWeflen said:


> Most of these strike me as fine choices. But the 70s 4 Seasons with Schwalbe????!?!?
> 
> I think I will be reviewing the EMI with ASM as a contrast. It's orders of magnitude better.


I like Mutter's playing better than Schwalbe's, but her performance has a harpsichord (or something that sounds very close to one) in the accompaniment. Harpsichord sound is a dealbreaker for me, which may explain why I have yet to find a great Brandenburg concerto set.


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## MatthewWeflen

BachIsBest said:


> Yeah, that surprised me too. I might take the 70s 8th over the 80s one but definitely prefer the VPO 7.


I would definitely take the BPO 8th over the VPO. But the VPO 7th is magical.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I did back to back comparisons of the 70s EMI BPO, 70s DG BPO and 80s VPO 7ths last summer, and they are all very fine. But what I heard was greater tension and concentration in the 70s versions. The VPO version sounds magnificent, and no doubt if sound is more of a priority that one holds more sway.

Karajan had a very keen sense of architecture and pacing. So for me I want to hear him at his sharpest, which is what I hear in the 70s 7ths.


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## HenryPenfold

My Top Ten Karajan Deutsche Grammophon releases (valid until 13 Feb 2021)

1. Webern, Schoenberg, Berg BPO 1974
2. Tchaikovsky 6 VPO 1984
3. Schumann 4 VPO 1987 
4. Bruckner 7 VPO 1989
5. Bruckner 8 VPO 1988
6. Mahler 9 BPO (Live) 1982
7. Strauss Ein Heldenleben BPO 1985
8. Wagner Ring BPO et al 1966/69
9. Parsifal BPO et al 1980
10. Beethoven 6 1982


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## MatthewWeflen

HenryPenfold said:


> My Top Ten Karajan Deutsche Grammophon releases (valid until 13 Feb 2021)
> 
> 1. Webern, Schoenberg, Berg BPO 1974
> 2. Tchaikovsky 6 VPO 1984
> 3. Schumann 4 VPO 1987
> 4. Bruckner 7 VPO 1989
> 5. Bruckner 8 VPO 1988
> 6. Mahler 9 BPO (Live) 1982
> 7. Strauss Ein Heldenleben BPO 1985
> 8. Wagner Ring BPO et al 1966/69
> 9. Parsifal BPO et al 1980
> 10. Beethoven 6 1982


Heavy on the 80s! I assume this is in part because you downloaded the set!


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## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I did back to back comparisons of the 70s EMI BPO, 70s DG BPO and 80s VPO 7ths last summer, and they are all very fine. But what I heard was greater tension and concentration in the 70s versions. The VPO version sounds magnificent, and no doubt if sound is more of a priority that one holds more sway.
> 
> Karajan had a very keen sense of architecture and pacing. So for me I want to hear him at his sharpest, which is what I hear in the 70s 7ths.


I agree with this.


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## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> Heavy on the 80s! I assume this is in part because you downloaded the set!


Yes indeed. My choices are very heavily influenced by the amazing journey you led us through on this thread and the fact that I bought the complete set as a download and have been listening to it an awful lot!

Before your thread, the works would have been the same, but I would have chosen more from the 60s & 70s. I have a completely different view of late Karajan, these days.

Edit: Thinking about the four VPO selections in my list, it's such a shame K didn't live another ten years. What might've been ........


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## HenryPenfold

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I did back to back comparisons of the 70s EMI BPO, 70s DG BPO and 80s VPO 7ths last summer, and they are all very fine. But what I heard was greater tension and concentration in the 70s versions. The VPO version sounds magnificent, and no doubt if sound is more of a priority that one holds more sway.
> 
> Karajan had a very keen sense of architecture and pacing. So for me I want to hear him at his sharpest, which is what I hear in the 70s 7ths.


Very interesting observations. And I think you are right on all of it. I've always been very undecided about which 7 is my preference (normally a toss-up between the 1970s EMI & DG). But the superb sound and overall presentation of the VPO 80s version has really swayed me (at the moment).


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## Axter

HenryPenfold said:


> Edit: Thinking about the four VPO selections in my list, it's such a shame K didn't live another ten years. What might've been ........


This is what everyone in Vienna says. As the famous saying among Viennese goes "BPO was like Karajan's wife, and VPO like his secret love". lol


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## MatthewWeflen

Axter said:


> This is what everyone in Vienna says. As the famous saying among Viennese goes "BPO was like Karajan's wife, and VPO like his secret love". lol


I find the analogy inapt in some respects. One would normally suspect that a wife would be the stout provider and mother, the mistress a wild lover who doesn't prioritize commitment or domesticity.

But I view the orchestral output in somewhat the reverse modes. BPO was bombastic and high octane under HVK, whereas VPO was more refined and ethereal.


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> I find the analogy inapt in some respects. One would normally suspect that a wife would be the stout provider and mother, the mistress a wild lover who doesn't prioritize commitment or domesticity.
> 
> But I view the orchestral output in somewhat the reverse modes. BPO was bombastic and high octane under HVK, whereas VPO was more refined and ethereal.


Agreed. I think Viennese meant it with a jealousy towards BPO having Karajan. But then again VPO always chose not to have a principal conductor. The competition between the two orchestras in end 70ies through 80ies, Karajan/BPO vs Bernstein/VPO was for neutral audience the best the two cities could offer to classical music lovers.

You are right on the orchestra's playing styles and sounds. Karajan's Beethoven for example is most suited with BPO, while Tchaikovsky and Bruckner sounded better with VPO. From a neutral perspective it is heaven to have these choices. As Henry says it's regrettable Karajan didn't record more with VPO. Who knows the outcome if we would have a side by side Beethoven cycle comparison between BPO and VPO? I am tending to think Pastoral symph would have sounded magnificent with VPO, while Eroica with BPO is unbeatable in my opinion.


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## MatthewWeflen

Axter said:


> Agreed. I think Viennese meant it with a jealousy towards BPO having Karajan. But then again VPO always chose not to have a principal conductor. The competition between the two orchestras in end 70ies through 80ies, Karajan/BPO vs Bernstein/VPO was for neutral audience the best the two cities could offer to classical music lovers.
> 
> You are right on the orchestra's playing styles and sounds. Karajan's Beethoven for example is most suited with BPO, while Tchaikovsky and Bruckner sounded better with VPO. From a neutral perspective it is heaven to have these choices. As Henry says it's regrettable Karajan didn't record more with VPO. Who knows the outcome if we would have a side by side Beethoven cycle comparison between BPO and VPO? I am tending to think Pastoral symph would have sounded magnificent with VPO, while Eroica with BPO is unbeatable in my opinion.


My dream pairing would be a HVK/VPO Sibelius cycle (including No. 3). Also Mendelssohn, I think that would be a good match.


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> My dream pairing would be a HVK/VPO Sibelius cycle (including No. 3). Also Mendelssohn, I think that would be a good match.


Oh yes. Mendelssohn specially, also Schumann.


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #LC 6646









Antonio Vivaldi - Le Quattro Stagioni, op. 8 (RV269,315,293 & 297)
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin
Herbert von Karajan, William Tim Read, harpsichords
Rudolf Scholz, organ
*
Recorded: June 18-19, 1984
Recording Venue: Zeremoniensaal, Hofburg, Vienna
Balance Engineer: Wolfgang Gülich
Total time: 41 minutes

*Review: *Speaking of the Vienna Philharmonic, this particular album may have been HVK's grandest middle finger to the BPO during Meyer-gate. This was a massive seller, and for good reason. Not only was Mutter's star ascendant, but the VPO and the other soloists (Karajan included) provide absolutely stellar accompaniment. The recording quality, all digital, positively mops the floor with the muddy, muffled St. Moritz-recorded atrocity perpetrated by DG in 1972. The harpsichords here are lively and present in the mix (unlike the barely there harpsichord in the DG record), and the VPO provides glittering, lovely texture behind a solid, even virtuosic in spots, ASM solo. This recording stands alongside Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert as my go to for the piece - one a marvelous big band account, the other a sprightly HIP rendition. If this were your only 4 Seasons, you would not be suffering any great shakes.

I do not give out high ratings on baroque material lightly. I am pretty demanding when it comes to the overall sound of the orchestra. But this recording is good enough to merit the following rating...
*
Rating: 10/10

Video:*


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## Fat Bob

OK, this was difficult but at the moment my 10 HvK recordings I couldn’t live without goes as follows: 
Beethoven 9th Symphony (70s)
Bruckner 8th Symphony 
Puccini La Boheme (Pavarotti, Freni)
Holst The Planets (Decca VPO)
Mascagni Cavalleria Rusticana (La Scala, Bergonzi)
R Strauss 4 Last Songs (Janowitz)
Wagner Meistersinger (Dresden)
Tchaikovsky 6th Symphony (70s)
Verdi Aida (Tebaldi, Bergonzi)
Sibelius 5th Symphony (60s)

Ask me next week and it could be different - and I have no intention of destroying the rest....


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## MatthewWeflen

Fat Bob said:


> OK, this was difficult but at the moment my 10 HvK recordings I couldn't live without goes as follows:
> Beethoven 9th Symphony (70s)
> Bruckner 8th Symphony
> Puccini La Boheme (Pavarotti, Freni)
> Holst The Planets (Decca VPO)
> Mascagni Cavalleria Rusticana (La Scala, Bergonzi)
> R Strauss 4 Last Songs (Janowitz)
> Wagner Meistersinger (Dresden)
> Tchaikovsky 6th Symphony (70s)
> Verdi Aida (Tebaldi, Bergonzi)
> Sibelius 5th Symphony (60s)
> 
> Ask me next week and it could be different - and I have no intention of destroying the rest....


A most estimable list. I am not (yet?) an opera guy, but of course there are almost certainly opera recordings that teach the heights of the orchestral stuff.


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## MatthewWeflen

*Decca Records, Album #SXL 2305









Gustav Holst, The Planets, op. 32
Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
Wiener Staatsoper, choir*

Recorded: 1961-09-22
Recording Venue: Sofiensaal, Vienna
Engineer: John Culshaw
Total time: 48:48

*Review: *This recording mops the floor with the 1980s digital BPO Planets, both in terms of performance as well as, surprisingly, sound quality. This is pretty amazing for such an early recording. But the depth of bass and the level of detail is so much greater in the Decca recording. The last quarter of "Saturn" (starting at 32:57 in the appended recording, though I don't know how well the YouTube video approaches a CD-or-better quality file) is one of the best places to really hear the difference. The harps plink out with much greater detail, the contrabasses rumble so much more effectively. I am listening to a 192khz/24b FLAC rip I made of the Japanese Blu-Ray Audio, but the CD is nearly as detailed.

As far as performance goes, I have seen it said that there is no more "savage" "Mars." Now, I can't make that claim reliably, but I've heard a good half dozen Planets and this is certainly the most intense Mars among those. One thing that really stands out to me with the Mars is how the orchestra sounds like it is _on the verge_ of flying apart rhythmically, but never quite does. It's as if the drum line is a half beat ahead of the melody. It's really unnerving. Anyway, for as great as this recording does bombast, there are some really ravishingly beautiful passages, too. Jupiter is big and noble, Saturn builds to its clanging "cowbell" wonderfully (no one could say that this needs more), but then dissolves into a really beautiful conclusion. The slow movements really display that sense of narrative and pulse that HVK has at his best, never becoming boring.

All in all, it's the Planets that I return to the most. Another account that approaches it for me is Levine/CSO, but this one tops my list.

*Rating: 10/10

Video:*


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## Fat Bob

Glad you like this "Planets" as much as I do. At one time this recording was available coupled with Elgar's Enigma Variations with the LSO conducted by Pierre Monteux, not a conductor I would have immediately thought of as an Elgar conductor but that performance is rather fine too IMHO.


----------



## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> *Decca Records, Album #SXL 2305
> 
> View attachment 150810
> 
> 
> Gustav Holst, The Planets, op. 32
> Wiener Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Wiener Staatsoper, choir*
> 
> Recorded: 1961-09-22
> Recording Venue: Sofiensaal, Vienna
> Engineer: John Culshaw
> Total time: 48:48
> 
> *Review: *This recording mops the floor with the 1980s digital BPO Planets, both in terms of performance as well as, surprisingly, sound quality. This is pretty amazing for such an early recording. But the depth of bass and the level of detail is so much greater in the Decca recording. The last quarter of "Saturn" (starting at 32:57 in the appended recording, though I don't know how well the YouTube video approaches a CD-or-better quality file) is one of the best places to really hear the difference. The harps plink out with much greater detail, the contrabasses rumble so much more effectively. I am listening to a 192khz/24b FLAC rip I made of the Japanese Blu-Ray Audio, but the CD is nearly as detailed.
> 
> As far as performance goes, I have seen it said that there is no more "savage" "Mars." Now, I can't make that claim reliably, but I've heard a good half dozen Planets and this is certainly the most intense Mars among those. One thing that really stands out to me with the Mars is how the orchestra sounds like it is _on the verge_ of flying apart rhythmically, but never quite does. It's as if the drum line is a half beat ahead of the melody. It's really unnerving. Anyway, for as great as this recording does bombast, there are some really ravishingly beautiful passages, too. Jupiter is big and noble, Saturn builds to its clanging "cowbell" wonderfully (no one could say that this needs more), but then dissolves into a really beautiful conclusion. The slow movements really display that sense of narrative and pulse that HVK has at his best, never becoming boring.
> 
> All in all, it's the Planets that I return to the most. Another account that approaches it for me is Levine/CSO, but this one tops my list.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Video:*


I probably have towards 50 Planets and have heard most of the rest (I had a thing about the piece 10 years ago) and that Karajan one is still in my top 5
Like you said, Matt, it mops the floor with the Berlin one (which isnt very well played or recorded). It's far more savage, vital and exciting and beats the majority of the opposition, too. Like you, Matt, I like the Levine too but Dutoit, Ozawa and Groves are even better. All excellent performances.


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #LC 0233









Schubert Complete Symphonies and Rosamunde Ballet Music
Symphony No.1 In D D82
Symphony No.2 In B Flat D125
Symphony No.3 In D D200
Symphony No.4 In C Minor D417 'Tragic'
Symphony No.5 In B Flat D485
Symphony No.6 In C D589
Symphony No.8 In B Minor D759 'Unfinished'
Symphony No.9 In C D944 'Great'
Rosamunde - Overture and Ballet Music D797

Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded: 8 Sep 1977 and 2-6 Jan 1978 (Sym 1-6, 9, Rosamunde); 10-12 June 1977 (Sym 8)
Recording Venue: Berlin Philharmonie
Balance Engineer: Wolfgang Gülich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 4:41:53

*Review: *This one has taken me a while because it was one big 5 LP release for EMI and it's nearly five hours of music. It was recorded in 1977 and 1978 for EMI at the Philharmonie. It shares some significant sonic characteristics with other recordings of that vintage - the 70s Brahms in particular. There are spots in which it is a bit boomy in terms of bass, which tends to obscure the mix. With that said, there are many spots with lovely lilt and detail. The 2nd movement of the 2nd symphony is one of my favorites in the whole set (11:08 in the appended Sym. 2 video). The moment it switches to the new tempo (15:45) gives a good feeling for the overall quality of the set - yes, it's a "big band sound." But at its best it is very involving and displays that classic HVK/BPO "Klang" for which they were so famous. Although it doesn't do this consistently, there is some good contrabass vibration detail present, especially as we get to the later symphonies. The Rosamunde music is played very well and is quite exciting.

I have two other Schubert cycles: Jos van Immerseel/Anima Eterna and Harnoncourt/Royal Concertgebouw. The Karajan trounces the 1992 DDD Harnoncourt recording for audio quality, though the performances are done in a similar style. The Immerseel is much fleeter and played in a HIP style. It's a different beast altogether, with correspondingly lighter, more airy digital sound (it was recorded in 1996-97).

This cycle was remastered by Warner Classics in 2014 as a part of their Karajan box sets of EMI material. The remaster went some way towards taming that bloomy sound, and is an improvement across the board.

I never fail to enjoy this set and frequently turn on one symphony or another only to find myself thinking "oh, just one or two more." It is consistently enjoyable in the way that HVK/BPO's best 1970s recordings can be - big and bold. I can't give it a 10 because of the room for audio improvement. But a 9 feels right to me.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Remaining videos from prior review (last page):


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #C 065-02042









Beethoven Triple Concerto for Piano, Violin, and Cello in C major, Op. 56
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
David Oistrakh, violin
Mstislav Rostropovich, cello
Sviatoslav Richter, piano*

Recorded: 1969
Recording Venue: Jesus-Christus-Kirche Berlin
Audio Engineer: Allen Stagg
Producer: Peter Andry
Total time: 36:15

*Review:* If there's any example that demonstrates that Norman Lebrecht is an unserious hack who writes based on his own personal animus, it is this one. He nominated it to a "20 recordings that shouldn't exist" list, which is frankly nuts. This 1970 record was lauded in Gramophone, and indeed won the Grammy award in that year for classical recording. The sound quality is amazing for the vintage, and competes well with modern recordings. I think this is every bit as good as the 1979 Mutter/Ma/Zeltser recording (which I also rate a 10). The synergy between the soloists is impeccable and the accompaniment from the BPO lends an epic flavor to the proceedings in the big movements, and ably recedes in the quite beauteous Largo.

*Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #SD-3854









Beethoven Piano Concertos Nos. 1-5, op. 15,19,37,58,73
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
Alexis Weissenberg, piano*

Recorded: 1974 (Con. 5), 1977 (Con. 4), 1978 (Con. 1-3)
Recording Venue: Berlin (probably Philharmonie)
Audio Engineer: Wolfgang Gülich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 3:36:00
*
Review:* This was a fascinating one to compare with others in my collection. I own 3 sets of the piano concertos - this, Solti/CSO/Ashkenazy, and Rattle/BPO/Uchida. This recording is the slowest of the three as far as tempii go, with Rattle being the fastest. The instrumentation is leaner and closer to HIP standards on the Rattle, while Solti and HVK are both "big band."

The HVK/BPO/Weissenberg set has been critically derided. I disagree with some of the criticisms I've seen, though, that the performances are technically proficient but somehow bloodless. It's just a different conception. The "klang" of the BPO under HVK's baton emphasizes majesty, whereas the CSO favors a more rollicking sound, and the BPO under Rattle goes for lightness and speed. All three are valid and successful.

Where _I _take some issue artistically with the HVK/BPO set is in a few of the slow movements, especially in the first concerto, also to some degree in the second. They are undeniably beautiful in terms of pianism, but they can feel a bit draggy. Sonically, I think the piano is miked too close. It feels too close in the ear, especially via headphones. The third movement of Concerto 1 provides a good example of thos "too close" feeling (29:21 in the appended video).

Overall, in such a large set of performances, there are some that succeed more and some less. The 3rd-4th-5th are all pretty successful, with some amazing playing by Weissenberg and some great "majestic" sound by the BPO. The slow movement of the 1st nearly derails it, but it's hard to resist the sonic splendor of the outer movements. I view it as an imperfect but still worthy set. The Solti is more exciting, the HVK is more beautiful. The Rattle is a different experience altogether given the interpretive goals. Each set evokes a different feeling and brings out different details. My rating downgrade is for production choices.
*
Rating: 8/10

Videos:*


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## Axter

^
I’ve always wondered why this piano concerto cycle doesn’t get enough mentions and praises. Its a good recording. I haven’t admittedly listened to all the concertos there but the one I listened to 3rd and 4th are great in my opinion.
It seems that many people prefer the VPO/Zimerman/Bernstein or VPO/Ashkenazy/Mehta or CSO/Ashkenazy/Solti on Beethoven’s Piano Concertos. But I think (based on what I heard) the BPO/Weissenberg/Karajan should get more attention.

Again, Karajan died too soon. I really would love to have a young Kissin and Karajan combo ala Tchaikovsky with Beethoven. Preferably a VPO/Kissin/Karajan. That could have been something most would want to have in their collection.


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## MatthewWeflen

Axter said:


> ^
> I've always wondered why this piano concerto cycle doesn't get enough mentions and praises. Its a good recording. I haven't admittedly listened to all the concertos there but the one I listened to 3rd and 4th are great in my opinion.
> It seems that many people prefer the VPO/Zimerman/Bernstein or VPO/Ashkenazy/Mehta or CSO/Ashkenazy/Solti on Beethoven's Piano Concertos. But I think (based on what I heard) the BPO/Weissenberg/Karajan should get more attention.
> 
> Again, Karajan died too soon. I really would love to have a young Kissin and Karajan combo ala Tchaikovsky with Beethoven. Preferably a VPO/Kissin/Karajan. That could have been something most would want to have in their collection.


My sense is that some of it was Karajan fatigue (given the stereotypical nature of the criticism, e.g. "too beautiful, too mannered, too sterile,") but some of it was a real reaction to the performance. Like I said above, they really do sound different. They give different feelings. My puzzlement has to do with why this is not considered a good thing. Don't we want tangibly different takes on standard repertoire?

HVK/VPO/Kissin would have been terrific -- I wonder if he would have been up to it at such a young age!


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> My sense is that some of it was Karajan fatigue (given the stereotypical nature of the criticism, e.g. "too beautiful, too mannered, too sterile,") but some of it was a real reaction to the performance. Like I said above, they really do sound different. They give different feelings. My puzzlement has to do with why this is not considered a good thing. Don't we want tangibly different takes on standard repertoire?
> 
> HVK/VPO/Kissin would have been terrific -- I wonder if he would have been up to it at such a young age!


I am with you on this, the whole criticism like too beautiful is a bad thing now? Its was pure jealousy. And sounding different is what art and different artists is all about.

On young Kissin, I trust him. The way he handled himself live with Tchaikovsky's concerto, that was amazing...


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## Knorf

The quality and integrity of Karajan's conducting and the beauty of the playing of the Berliner Philharmoniker, coupled with their enormous marketing success (for classical music) meant that for many, including the cognoscenti, Karajan and the Berliner Philharmoniker came to _define_ what the greatest in orchestral achievement was.

It's just a short step from "defines the greatest in orchestral achievement" to "too perfect," then "too slick," "too commercial," "too conventional," "too mainstream" and all the other ignorant and short-sighted anti-Karajan epithets. I bought into that narrative to some extent myself, sadly. I've mostly gotten over it.

But I still dislike Karajan's Mozart.

I've not heard the Karajan/Weissenberg Beethoven cycle, which I should remedy at some point, I'm sure.


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## MatthewWeflen

Knorf said:


> The quality and integrity of Karajan's conducting and the beauty of the playing of the Berliner Philharmoniker, coupled with their enormous marketing success (for classical music) meant that for many, including the cognoscenti, Karajan and the Berliner Philharmoniker came to _define_ what the greatest in orchestral achievement was.
> 
> It's just a short step from "defines the greatest in orchestral achievement" to "too perfect," then "too slick," "too commercial," "too conventional," "too mainstream" and all the other ignorant and short-sighted anti-Karajan epithets. I bought into that narrative to some extent myself, sadly. I've mostly gotten over it.
> 
> But I still dislike Karajan's Mozart.
> 
> I've not heard the Karajan/Weissenberg Beethoven cycle, which I should remedy at some point, I'm sure.


Well, my advice is to do it over speakers. 

I don't like his Bach. The sound he cultivated lends itself to sweeping romanticism, not fiddly Baroque - which is why his Tchaikovsky, Strauss, and Sibelius were so smashing.


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## Axter

Knorf, I used to think the same about Karajan’s Mozart, but started to like it now. After I heard the Prague symphony few times and then returned to my usual recordings, I noticed they feel somewhat weaker. So, I grew into Karajan Mozart now.


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## bharbeke

From a bit earlier in the thread, I loved hearing the Rosamunde overture and fifth symphony from Schubert.


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## MatthewWeflen

Axter said:


> Knorf, I used to think the same about Karajan's Mozart, but started to like it now. After I heard the Prague symphony few times and then returned to my usual recordings, I noticed they feel somewhat weaker. So, I grew into Karajan Mozart now.


For me, I can really dig HVK's conception of Mozart (big band Beethovenian) as long as the sound quality is able to portray it with a minimim of bloat and a maximum of clarity. So the 70s and 80s Mozart recorded at the Philharmonie is very nice. The 60s Mozart at St. Moritz is difficult to get through. My other Mozart main men are Adam Fischer for symphonies, and Murray Perahia for piano concertos.


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## Axter

MatthewWeflen said:


> For me, I can really dig HVK's conception of Mozart (big band Beethovenian) as long as the sound quality is able to portray it with a minimim of bloat and a maximum of clarity. So the 70s and 80s Mozart recorded at the Philharmonie is very nice. The 60s Mozart at St. Moritz is difficult to get through. My other Mozart main men are Adam Fischer for symphonies, and Murray Perahia for piano concertos.


Yes the ones I have are from 70ies. The sound quality is great. I like specifically Haffner, Prague and Jupiter symphony to the extent that now I believe Haffner needs to be played on big band and nothing else.

Have you listened the late Mozart symphs with Sir Colin Davis conducting the Staatskapelle Dresden? If not give it some try, good recordings too.


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## MatthewWeflen

I came across this video today. It's a lively concert.


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## Agamenon

MatthewWeflen said:


> *EMI Records, Album #C 065-02042
> 
> View attachment 151373
> 
> 
> Beethoven Triple Concerto for Piano, Violin, and Cello in C major, Op. 56
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> David Oistrakh, violin
> Mstislav Rostropovich, cello
> Sviatoslav Richter, piano*
> 
> Recorded: 1969
> Recording Venue: Jesus-Christus-Kirche Berlin
> Audio Engineer: Allen Stagg
> Producer: Peter Andry
> Total time: 36:15
> 
> *Review:* If there's any example that demonstrates that Norman Lebrecht is an unserious hack who writes based on his own personal animus, it is this one. He nominated it to a "20 recordings that shouldn't exist" list, which is frankly nuts. This 1970 record was lauded in Gramophone, and indeed won the Grammy award in that year for classical recording. The sound quality is amazing for the vintage, and competes well with modern recordings. I think this is every bit as good as the 1979 Mutter/Ma/Zeltser recording (which I also rate a 10). The synergy between the soloists is impeccable and the accompaniment from the BPO lends an epic flavor to the proceedings in the big movements, and ably recedes in the quite beauteous Largo.
> 
> *Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


Richter was very very dissatisfied with Karajan and his mood during this recording.


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## Eclectic Al

Did he not like that Karajan got to sit at the piano in the photo?


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## Agamenon

Maybe, too. 

And...we want a Karajan Opera Thread. Please. We are hungry.:demonio:


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## MatthewWeflen

Agamenon said:


> Richter was very very dissatisfied with Karajan and his mood during this recording.


Being dissatisfied with the conductor whilst simultaneously creating a great concert/recording is a grand tradition.


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## MatthewWeflen

Agamenon said:


> Maybe, too.
> 
> And...we want a Karajan Opera Thread. Please. We are hungry.:demonio:


I have precious few opera recordings, and am not (yet?) a big fan of the genre in general. But if someone else has the Karajan opera/sacred box, or a large selection of his operas, they should feel free to review them here!


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## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> My sense is that some of it was Karajan fatigue (given the stereotypical nature of the criticism, e.g. "too beautiful, too mannered, too sterile,") but some of it was a real reaction to the performance....


I don't think I've ever bought into the "too slick, too rounded-off" comments. Some performances were not good enough, some badly recorded (DG were bad culprits for this) but with so many recordings he was bound to make duds (and there's no more percentagewise than most other conductors I can think of). DavidA used to call criticism of Karajan 'tall poppy syndrome' and there's probably some truth in that but familiarity also brings contempt too. After he died the backlash against him was vocal, led by some vociferous critics, and it became de rigour to say he was ***** (slick, smooth, etc). With hindsight we can listen to what he left behind and if you listen with an open mind you will find recordings you like and don't like. To dismiss ALL his recordings as 'all of a type' is ridiculous, as you've proven in this thread. But I'm preaching to the wrong people. I'm no fanboy... I just listen to the music, not what trends / people dictate. I find that's the most sensible option.


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## MatthewWeflen

Another very fun one (especially the Farandole):


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## Malx

Merl said:


> I'm no fanboy... I just listen to the music, not what trends / people dictate. I find that's the most sensible option.


Not sure that will catch on


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## AndorFoldes

Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed going through this thread and reading the reviews about each disc. It seems that you started out with an assumption that Karajan did his best work early on, but changed your opinion as you went through the boxes. This is probably due in part to the fact that everything has been well remastered using DG’s OIBP technique. I liked this comment about the 1980s recording of the Coriolan overture: «The Coriolan sounds like it has an electric wire hooked up to it». Have to agree with your sentiment there. Please do make more of these in the future if you desire, I will be paying attention.


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## MatthewWeflen

AndorFoldes said:


> Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed going through this thread and reading the reviews about each disc. It seems that you started out with an assumption that Karajan did his best work early on, but changed your opinion as you went through the boxes. This is probably due in part to the fact that everything has been well remastered using DG's OIBP technique. I liked this comment about the 1980s recording of the Coriolan overture: «The Coriolan sounds like it has an electric wire hooked up to it». Have to agree with your sentiment there. Please do make more of these in the future if you desire, I will be paying attention.


Happy to have been of service. I am probably going to do a thread for the Living Stereo box set.

I think my expectations were that the 80s would be the worst, given their reputations. And while there are some stinkers, the VPO material more than made up for them.The 60s set was dragged down by St. Moritz recordings.


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## jambo

HenryPenfold said:


> Yes indeed. My choices are very heavily influenced by the amazing journey you led us through on this thread and the fact that I bought the complete set as a download and have been listening to it an awful lot!
> 
> Before your thread, the works would have been the same, but I would have chosen more from the 60s & 70s. I have a completely different view of late Karajan, these days.
> 
> Edit: Thinking about the four VPO selections in my list, it's such a shame K didn't live another ten years. What might've been ........


I just wanted to ask about the digital versions of the 70s and 80s Karajan sets.

Did yours come with good digital booklets? I'm looking at buying the 1970s set and I can save about $40 overall at one site, but it doesn't include the digital booklets.

I have the physical box set of Karajan 1960s and find myself using the book every now and then.


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## HenryPenfold

jambo said:


> I just wanted to ask about the digital versions of the 70s and 80s Karajan sets.
> 
> Did yours come with good digital booklets? I'm looking at buying the 1970s set and I can save about $40 overall at one site, but it doesn't include the digital booklets.
> 
> I have the physical box set of Karajan 1960s and find myself using the book every now and then.


Came with the digital booklets. Downloaded them, looked at them once, but from there, I never use them - you might be different. For me, the only useful information is the recording information, and Matthew has already provided it all here on this thread anyway. Better information on the net, this forum and various books.


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## jambo

HenryPenfold said:


> Came with the digital booklets. Downloaded them, looked at them once, but from there, I never use them - you might be different. For me, the only useful information is the recording information, and Matthew has already provided it all here on this thread anyway. Better information on the net, this forum and various books.


Yeah I do normally get all my info from places like Discogs and Presto, so probably best to go for the bargain.


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## HenryPenfold

jambo said:


> Yeah I do normally get all my info from places like Discogs and Presto, so probably best to go for the bargain.


If my set had come without the booklets, it would be of no consequence whatsoever. If I were you I'd grab the $40 discount and where necessary, read Matthew's information and commentary as provide here. No brainer, really ......


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## MatthewWeflen

jambo said:


> I just wanted to ask about the digital versions of the 70s and 80s Karajan sets.
> 
> Did yours come with good digital booklets? I'm looking at buying the 1970s set and I can save about $40 overall at one site, but it doesn't include the digital booklets.
> 
> I have the physical box set of Karajan 1960s and find myself using the book every now and then.


The box sets each come with a large softcover book. They contain ~3 essays at the beginning, and then recording/track infor for each disc. Each disc does NOT come with an interpretive essay about the piece, as an LP or CD often does (those essays ARE replicated on the cardboard disc sleeve, but the print is too small, even with magnification, to read). So, as Henry states above, the only thing you're really getting is the track info and recording data, which are on sites like Presto.


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records (Angel Imprint), Album #EAC-90051









Jean Sibelius, Symphony No. 1, op. 39
Karelia Suite, op. 11
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded: 1981, Philharmonie, Berlin
Audio Engineer: Wolfgang Gulich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 55:28

*Review:* HVK/BPO's Sibelius for EMI was recorded digitally in the early 80s. I can't speak to how it sounded upon original release, but whatever remastering Warner has done in its re-release has been very well done. Detail is strong across instrument groups, with some nice string sounds from the basses (especially in movement 1.4), good, impactful percussion (throughout, but also notable in 1.4) and zero noise, digital or otherwise. In the first symphony, the playing throbs with passion and effulgence - the sorts of things HVK/BPO are sometimes criticized for, but I can't find it in myself to agree, at least for this material. This is sweeping, romantic, plush, booming Sibelius, and I like it! The finale of the fourth movement is just... whew (beginning at 35:35 in the appended video). Turn it up and fan yourself off afterwards. Pulse pounding. The Karelia is quite fine, but does not reach the heights of the 1st here, and is surpassed by the 1997 Colin Davis/LSO in my collection. I would give the 1st a 10, and Karelia an 8. So all told...

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## Fat Bob

I have that Sibelius disc and completely agree with your assessment of the symphony but I’d rate the Karelia suite a bit lower. It just all seems too sluggish for my taste, I much prefer Neeme Jarvi with the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra for DG on a disc that also contains fine versions of Luonnotar and The Oceanides.


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## MatthewWeflen

I have been revisiting the digital London symphonies on my new headphones (Sony MDR-Z1R) and they clear up some of the bass muddiness that I heard on my previous pair. I would probably retroactively grant each one an additional point as a result.


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #C 069-43040









Jean Sibelius, Symphony No. 2, op. 43
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded: November 16-17 1980, Philharmonie, Berlin
Audio Engineer: Wolfgang Gulich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 47:48
*
Review: *This LP contains just the second symphony with no tone poems. It may be just slightly behind the 1st as a technical recording, but the performance is unimpeachable. I did a lot of comparison listening to the other 2nds in my collection (Kamu/BPO, Rattle/BPO, Davis/LSO '97 and '02), and Davis/LSO '97 comes closest for both passion (slightly less) and audio quality (slightly more). Kamu/BPO is probably in third place. The less said about the Rattle, the better. Anyway, here the "big tune" of the finale (40:07 below) really pulses with vibrant energy and passion. Standouts here are brass and percussion, but the layering of strings is really excellent as well. HVK's conception of orchestral sound really suits this material in my opinion.

Look, I love this material, so it's hard not to be swept up in it. But as the best among my sampling of recordings, I have to give it a 10. If I had to pick a full cycle (which I don't), it would be Davis/LSO '97 on Sony Classics. But if I were choosing individual recordings, this No. 2 would take the prize.
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


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## jambo

HenryPenfold said:


> If my set had come without the booklets, it would be of no consequence whatsoever. If I were you I'd grab the $40 discount and where necessary, read Matthew's information and commentary as provide here. No brainer, really ......


Out of interest, where did you get yours?

Everywhere I'm looking the, the digital 80's sets are almost double the price of the digital 70's and 60's


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## MatthewWeflen

jambo said:


> Out of interest, where did you get yours?
> 
> Everywhere I'm looking the, the digital 80's sets are almost double the price of the digital 70's and 60's


If I were in the market for downloads of Karajan 1980s, I would get them from Presto Classical. $44 apiece for 4 volumes. Not cheap, but they're all in CD-quality FLAC, and they say there is a digital booklet.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8052520--karajan-1980s-vol-1


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #1C 065-02 978 Q









Jean Sibelius, Symphony No. 4, op. 63
Tapiola, op. 112
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
*
Recorded: 1978, Philharmonie, Berlin
Audio Engineer: Wolfgang Gulich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 58:28

*Review:* This LP collects what I think could fairly be said are two of Sibelius' more challenging pieces. There are long stretches of somewhat atonal music that could alienate someone more inclined towards romanticism. With that said, HVK/BPO do a good job of maintaining a narrative thread, and the playing is beautiful and top notch. Though this slightly earlier recording was not digital, there is really good bass response, especially in the Tapiola. Details in things like pizzicato and bells are very crisp. I felt some of the violin work in 4.1 verged on the screechy. Tapiola is probably the better technical recording of the two. The 4th, recorded at the Philharmonie, is the equal of the 60s record made in the Jesus Christus Kirche - the two recording spaces emphasize slightly different things (such as the aforementioned bells, which are nearly submerged in the JCK). Davis/LSO (1997) and Rattle/BPO are both technically better recordings, but I wouldn't put any of them a level up from the other in terms of performance. So if this were your 4th and your Tapiola, you would be doing fine. The Warner Classics remaster package of the EMI Sibelius has so far been a smash. I just wish HVK/BPO had done a digital 3rd and 7th for EMI. Oh well.
*
Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


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## jambo

MatthewWeflen said:


> If I were in the market for downloads of Karajan 1980s, I would get them from Presto Classical. $44 apiece for 4 volumes. Not cheap, but they're all in CD-quality FLAC, and they say there is a digital booklet.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8052520--karajan-1980s-vol-1


Well, the Australia pricing for the 1980's sets on Presto is a bit bonkers.

Each volume is the equivalent of $77 US dollars...


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## MatthewWeflen

jambo said:


> Well, the Australia pricing for the 1980's sets on Presto is a bit bonkers.
> 
> Each volume is the equivalent of $77 US dollars...


Yeah, for that price you might as well get the CDs. There's a used set on Amazon (US) for $315.

Discogs has some used offers you may want to consider:

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/6235932

I got my 1970s box from a Greek seller and had a good experience.


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## jambo

Yeah there's a set from Italy on Discogs that is very well priced and looks to be only partially played.

Just frustrating when I want to try and support the industry and I end up having to go through all these other options.

I lucked out with a 1960's set that looks almost brand new and got it for $200 US on eBay, and got the entire 1970's set digitally for $100 US. My only options for the 1980's set being more than that combined is just bizarre.


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## Subutai

The3Bs said:


> I have for a long time concentrated only on the 62 and 77 cycles... also due to bad experience with the 83 (sound quality wise)...
> It might be about time to revisit it with the new remasterings.. Thank you DavidA to point that out...


The 80's cycle was rereleased in a blue 'Karajan Beethoven' box and the remastering makes it easily the best recorded cycle. The remastered sound is truly harmonious.


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## MatthewWeflen

Subutai said:


> The 80's cycle was rereleased in a blue 'Karajan Beethoven' box and the remastering makes it easily the best recorded cycle. The remastered sound is truly harmonious.


On the 3rd and the 8th for sure. All 3 DG cycles are quite good.


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## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #065-02 948









Jean Sibelius, Symphony No. 5, op. 82
En Saga, op. 9
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded: 1978, Philharmonie, Berlin
Audio Engineer: Wolfgang Gulich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 50:59

*Review:* So I've done a bunch of comparison listening again with this one, and I think I've nailed down what separates the EMI mini-cycle from other HVK recordings as well as against the whole field. The sound here is more multi-miked and thus spotlights instrument groups such as percussion, basses and brass to a greater degree. What I had interpreted as "muddiness" or boominess" on my prior listening setup is now revealed to be depth and resonance on better cans. The level of detail doesn't reach what later digital recordings can, but EMI really captured some magic at the Philharmonie for these performances. At the end of the 1st movement, for instance, the crashing percussion really evokes the feeling of waves striking a rocky coast in a way that my other recordings just leave me a bit lukewarm on. These recordings really capture HVK/BPO's hot-blooded, passionate take on Sibelius. I like this quite a bit better than the JCK 60's recording, now. So much sounds buried in that, such as the textural strings in the "big tune" of the 1st movement (9:00 in the appended video). The tempo is rather broad, compared to Rattle at least. Colin Davis and LSO might take it just a wee bit faster. The broad tempo works very well for the nobility in the music (and of course it is marked as such in the score).

And so I think the rap on the EMI Sibelius is unearned. On good equipment that can cleanly deliver the low end of these recordings, what you get is full-bodied, soul-shaking Sibelius. If you're not in the market for this (I am), these recordings will not appeal. You should seek out thinner stew.

En Saga is well represented here as well, in a very heroic mode, bristling with dynamic range from the lovely layering of brass down to the detailed pizzicato strings. 
*
Rating: 10/10

Videos:*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

*EMI Records, Album #EL 27 0407









Jean Sibelius, Symphony No. 6, op. 104
Kuolema, op. 44 - Valse Triste
Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*

Recorded: Nov. 16-20, 1980, Philharmonie, Berlin
Audio Engineer: Wolfgang Gulich
Producer: Michel Glotz
Total time: 68:29

*Review: *Let me dispense with the criticism first - the Valse Triste here is not pleasant to listen to. The prominent bass notes drown out everything and are very fatiguing on the ear. As such, the 60s DG recording is preferable, as is the Colin Davis/LSO 1997 rendition. En Saga and Karelia are just fillers here from previous records.

With that out of the way, the 6th is another very good rendition, with excellent orchestral detail and good depth of tone. The strings in particular create a lovely sense of atmosphere, and there is good forward momentum in the first movement. The string tone cultivated here sets it apart from leaner renditions such as Davis/LSO and Rattle/BPO. There is more resonance and inner voice to the instruments. How you respond to this will depend on your feelings on close-miking. I like it when done well, and it is done pretty well here (unlike the Valse Triste).

As a whole, this Sibelius "cycle" (sans 3 and 7) has proved to be very much in line with HVK's previous interpretation - broad, muscular and romantic. The sonics are improved across the board, except for a few technical missteps in this or that tone poem. Having now reviewed it on my best equipment, I think these renditions make HVK's prior run-throughs obsolete. I highly recommend the box set by Warner Classics if you're looking for Karajan's Sibelius. You would only need to supplement it with the transcendent recording of the 7th from DG in the 60s. Alas, Karajan never set the 3rd to vinyl or CD.

*Rating: 9/10

Videos:*


----------



## Eclectic Al

Following on from the above post, and perhaps straying into territory too far from the Karajan review thread, does anyone have any light to shine on why HvK didn't record certain things?

He recorded lots of stuff (- that's not in doubt), some of it multiple times, much of it mainstream but some of it less so (Honegger, 2nd Viennese school, etc). He also recorded "lesser" music (such as the Peer Gynt Suites, if people will accept they are lesser).

Obviously no one will record everything, so there will just be gaps for no particular reason, but a few specifics:
- Sibelius 3? (He often did complete cycles, so why not with Sibelius?)
- Why no Schubert symphonies? Did he not like them?
- Why Holst's planets (more than once), but no Elgar?
- Why occasional ventures into Shostakovich and Prokofiev and also Nielsen, but so rarely, and why some Stravinsky but no Bartok, for example?
- French stuff. Was he known not to like French orchestral music much?

Did he perform things from the above but just never record them?

I guess there are known reasons for some of the above, so has anyone got any light to shine? And particularly, Sibelius 3???

(Apologies if he did record things I have missed.)


----------



## Merl

Eclectic Al said:


> Following on from the above post, and perhaps straying into territory too far from the Karajan review thread, does anyone have any light to shine on why HvK didn't record certain things?
> 
> He recorded lots of stuff (- that's not in doubt), some of it multiple times, much of it mainstream but some of it less so (Honegger, 2nd Viennese school, etc). He also recorded "lesser" music (such as the Peer Gynt Suites, if people will accept they are lesser).
> 
> Obviously no one will record everything, so there will just be gaps for no particular reason, but a few specifics:
> - Sibelius 3? (He often did complete cycles, so why not with Sibelius?)
> - _*Why no Schubert symphonies? Did he not like them?*_
> - Why Holst's planets (more than once), but no Elgar?
> - Why occasional ventures into Shostakovich and Prokofiev and also Nielsen, but so rarely, and why some Stravinsky but no Bartok, for example?
> - French stuff. Was he known not to like French orchestral music much?
> 
> Did he perform things from the above but just never record them?
> 
> I guess there are known reasons for some of the above, so has anyone got any light to shine? And particularly, Sibelius 3???
> 
> (Apologies if he did record things I have missed.)


Al, he did a full a schubert cycle!









As for Elgar, Herbie wasn't ever a fan. He did like the 2nd symphony (allegedly the only work of Elgar that he ever wanted to play) and planned to record in his last few years with the BPO but they weren't open to it at all. Actually whilst lots of people assume that it was Karajan who was always the stick in the mud as regards sticking to core repertoire, it was just as likely to be the BPO (in particular) who would block some of Karajan's more adventurous proposals. Labels were also a a problem. Whilst recording for EMI they vetoed a heck of a lot of stuff that Karajan loved and wanted to record due to his past or current world political issues. EMI said no to him tackling Bloch's Israel Symphony in the 1950's for political reasons - not the first time that HvK's pre-war activities were to cast a shadow over what he conducted. He loved Schelomo (it was programmed once for a New Year's Eve concert) as well as Britten's War Requiem which he performed twice in the mid-1960's but sadly disappeared from his schedule as it probably made others feel awkward (Karajan himself saw no problem with conducting any music he loved). EMI also blocked proposed recordings of Shosty 8th and Rachmaninov 2nd. There are quite a few pieces / symphonies that Karajan loved but never got round to recording. He made a number of suggestions to the BPO in the mid to late 80s that were all blocked due to the terrible relationship between both parties. Otherwise the BPO allegedly said a firm no to a Mahler 1st. Herbie was supposedly discussing the possibility of a Mahler 8 with the VPO and trying to pin Mutter down for a Berg / Sibelius Violin Concerto recording just before he died.


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## Enthusiast

^ It's just not terribly good! Perhaps best forgotten?


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## Eclectic Al

Enthusiast said:


> ^ It's just not terribly good! Perhaps best forgotten?


Perhaps that's the reason for no return to Schubert then??


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## MatthewWeflen

Enthusiast said:


> ^ It's just not terribly good! Perhaps best forgotten?


I like it. I think it's a convincing recording. I also have Van Immerseel, which is a more HIP take. They both have their pleasures,


----------



## bluto32

MatthewWeflen said:


> *EMI Records, Album #EL 27 0407
> Review: Let me dispense with the criticism first - the Valse Triste here is not pleasant to listen to. The prominent bass notes drown out everything and are very fatiguing on the ear. As such, the 60s DG recording is preferable, as is the Colin Davis/LSO 1997 rendition. En Saga and Karelia are just fillers here from previous records.
> *


*

Thanks for reviewing all these Karajan releases - it's a great thread. Please could you give the timestamp of a passage from his 1980 Valse Triste which you found particularly fatiguing compared to other recordings? I listened to the YouTube clip but didn't notice anything untoward. However, I don't know this work terribly well.*


----------



## MatthewWeflen

bluto32 said:


> Thanks for reviewing all these Karajan releases - it's a great thread. Please could you give the timestamp of a passage from his 1980 Valse Triste which you found particularly fatiguing compared to other recordings? I listened to the YouTube clip but didn't notice anything untoward. However, I don't know this work terribly well.


It's the main rhythmic bass line that starts from the beginning and proceeds through to the end. So... 00:01? 

It's honestly not noticeable on laptop speakers, because they generally can't reproduce the deepest bass tones present in the recording. But good headphones (or a hi-fi speaker system) can.


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## bluto32

Thanks - I was indeed listening to it through my PC speakers as I don't have my computer hooked up to my hi-fi.


----------



## The Wolf

Eclectic Al said:


> Following on from the above post, and perhaps straying into territory too far from the Karajan review thread, does anyone have any light to shine on why HvK didn't record certain things?
> 
> He recorded lots of stuff (- that's not in doubt), some of it multiple times, much of it mainstream but some of it less so (Honegger, 2nd Viennese school, etc). He also recorded "lesser" music (such as the Peer Gynt Suites, if people will accept they are lesser).
> 
> Obviously no one will record everything, so there will just be gaps for no particular reason, but a few specifics:
> - Sibelius 3? (He often did complete cycles, so why not with Sibelius?)
> - Why no Schubert symphonies? Did he not like them?
> - Why Holst's planets (more than once), but no Elgar?
> - Why occasional ventures into Shostakovich and Prokofiev and also Nielsen, but so rarely, and why some Stravinsky but no Bartok, for example?
> - French stuff. Was he known not to like French orchestral music much?
> 
> Did he perform things from the above but just never record them?
> 
> I guess there are known reasons for some of the above, so has anyone got any light to shine? And particularly, Sibelius 3???
> 
> (Apologies if he did record things I have missed.)


Sutermeister "Requiem" & the premier of Penderecki "Polymorphia" (only "live" and never studio recording, for both cases)











A pity that they were not recorded in the studio (the Polymorphia would have sounded brutal with DGG engineering). the same if he had recorded with them a complete cycle of Shostakovich and the other composers you mention. The records of the Second Vienna School were a personal endeavor: he abused his influence to get them recorded.


----------



## The Wolf

Merl said:


> Al, he did a full a schubert cycle!
> 
> View attachment 154087
> 
> 
> As for Elgar, Herbie wasn't ever a fan. He did like the 2nd symphony (allegedly the only work of Elgar that he ever wanted to play) and planned to record in his last few years with the BPO but they weren't open to it at all. Actually whilst lots of people assume that it was Karajan who was always the stick in the mud as regards sticking to core repertoire, it was just as likely to be the BPO (in particular) who would block some of Karajan's more adventurous proposals. Labels were also a a problem. Whilst recording for EMI they vetoed a heck of a lot of stuff that Karajan loved and wanted to record due to his past or current world political issues. EMI said no to him tackling Bloch's Israel Symphony in the 1950's for political reasons - not the first time that HvK's pre-war activities were to cast a shadow over what he conducted. He loved Schelomo (it was programmed once for a New Year's Eve concert) as well as Britten's War Requiem which he performed twice in the mid-1960's but sadly disappeared from his schedule as it probably made others feel awkward (Karajan himself saw no problem with conducting any music he loved). EMI also blocked proposed recordings of Shosty 8th and Rachmaninov 2nd. There are quite a few pieces / symphonies that Karajan loved but never got round to recording. He made a number of suggestions to the BPO in the mid to late 80s that were all blocked due to the terrible relationship between both parties. Otherwise the BPO allegedly said a firm no to a Mahler 1st. Herbie was supposedly discussing the possibility of a Mahler 8 with the VPO and trying to pin Mutter down for a Berg / Sibelius Violin Concerto recording just before he died.


Also a 3rd of Bartok with Lupatti and the Philharmonia Orchestra (November 1949) was canceled, because Lupatti could not travel to London for the recording sessions.

some things have been commented on in this thread. If you or someone else know any other specific information, you can provide it here too 

Recordings Canceled or Modified...


----------



## Sgfnorth

It’s only one guy who hates it. LoL


----------



## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 1
> LP#2532015
> 
> View attachment 144087
> 
> 
> R. Strauss, Eine Alpensinfonie, op. 64
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> David Bell, organ*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, December 1980
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 51:01
> 
> *Review: *This recording is the first multi-track digital recording for HVK/BPO at DG, and was used as the first test pressing of the compact disc format, for which Sony and Philips recruited HVK as an ambassador. Apparently, the mastering of the original release was harsh "early digital," with overly bright strings and an unpleasant sound. This has, however, been totally rectified by remastering, in both the "Gold Edition" and the 1980s box. Oh my goodness. The sound on offer here is just stupendous. The organ comes across perfectly, and provides a low, rich, rumbling foundation to the clear, airy, detailed sound. This is positively thrilling. The whole passage from 35:28 (Gewitter und Sturm) through the ending (Nacht) is just superlative. Auf dem Gipfel 20:51 is also great. The whole thing is utterly riveting. This is one of those recordings that I start, thinking I'll just listen to a few highlights, and then I am just compelled to listen to the entire thing. An unalloyed triumph.
> 
> I also like the cover very much. The light was caught beautifully.
> *
> Overall Rating: 10/10
> 
> Videos:*


I am listening to this again, while I work, on my Z1R headphones. It is really rapturous. I have always failed to understand Strauss criticism, especially of pieces like this as "superficial" or "excessive." But maybe I'm just a superficial and excessive guy.

One thing I am struck by in "Auf dem Gipfel" is how the strings do not come across as shrieky even though they are quite pronounced.

I may need to compare this with my other version (Kempe/Staatskapelle Dresden) to see how it compares. I think it may be the best thing HVK/BPO ever recorded.


----------



## HenryPenfold

MatthewWeflen said:


> I am listening to this again, while I work, on my Z1R headphones. It is really rapturous. I have always failed to understand Strauss criticism, especially of pieces like this as "superficial" or "excessive." But maybe I'm just a superficial and excessive guy.
> 
> One thing I am struck by in "Auf dem Gipfel" is how the strings do not come across as shrieky even though they are quite pronounced.
> 
> I may need to compare this with my other version (Kempe/Staatskapelle Dresden) to see how it compares. I think it may be the best thing HVK/BPO ever recorded.


I really like that Karajan disc. The remaster is excellent. For the Alpensinfonie, I alternate between Karajan, Sinopoli and the Testament Kempe (which has a glorious Horn Concerto #1 with the marvellous Alan Civil as soloist) .....


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Kempe/Dresden for me. Just so rich and powerful. Karajan and Mehta/LAPO are great too.


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## MatthewWeflen

Yeah, Kempe/Dresden is way up there. The whole Strauss set on Warner is very good.


----------



## Enthusiast

MatthewWeflen said:


> I like it. I think it's a convincing recording. I also have Van Immerseel, which is a more HIP take. They both have their pleasures,


There have been many good sets of the Schubert symphonies but those that succeed with the last two as well as the early one are quite few. Anyway, Bohm is better (by far) than Karajan and Kertesz is better than either. Beecham was great with the earlier symphonies (his recording of 3 and 5 is excellent). Harnoncourt's set with the Berlin Philharmonic is also exceptionally good (preferable to his earlier Concertgebouw recordings, I think, but they are also good). And Menuhin's set is also pretty good (and includes an unusually fast 9). As for HIP, there is Minkowski as well as van Immerseel and both are quite persuasive in the earlier symphonies.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Enthusiast said:


> There have been many good sets of the Schubert symphonies but those that succeed with the last two as well as the early one are quite few. Anyway, Bohm is better (by far) than Karajan and Kertesz is better than either. Beecham was great with the earlier symphonies (his recording of 3 and 5 is excellent). Harnoncourt's set with the Berlin Philharmonic is also exceptionally good (preferable to his earlier Concertgebouw recordings, I think, but they are also good). And Menuhin's set is also pretty good (and includes an unusually fast 9). As for HIP, there is Minkowski as well as van Immerseel and both are quite persuasive in the earlier symphonies.


I have the Immerseel and it is definitely enjoyable in the early ones, lending them a nice HIP vibe. Between the two, I have fast HIP-py with Immerseel and weightier plush with HVK/BPO.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1970's Disc 22
> LP#2707-084
> 
> View attachment 140095
> 
> Mendelssohn Symphony No. 1
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, 9/11 September & 1 November 1972
> Executive Producer: Hans Hirsch
> Recording Producer: Hans Weber
> Balance Engineer: Gunter Hermanns, Klaus Scheibe
> Total time: 30:29
> 
> *Review:* I love Karajan's Mendelssohn. I own a cycle by Gardiner and the LSO, and while it is estimable (and very fast), the weight that the BPO puts behind it in these recordings really does it for me. Is it Beethovenian or Brahmsian? Sure. Is that a problem? Nah. Anyway, the recorded sound here is excellent, if perhaps just a tad flabby in the bassy bandwidths. The instruments are well miked and when things get quiet, there is good dynamic range. The Menuetto is especially good here, but really all four movements are good. All in all, a rock solid Mendelssohn that I never really tire of.
> 
> *Overall Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


I played this one on my Z1R headphones, which reveal it to lack the flabbiness I accused it of. The bass is amazing and detailed but needs good equipment to let it shine to its fullest.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 28
> LP#2532043
> 
> View attachment 146339
> 
> 
> Schumann, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, op. 54
> Grieg, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, op. 16
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra
> Krystian Zimerman, piano*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1981
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 63:55
> 
> *Review:* I do not own either of these pieces in an alternative version. As I've said before, buying a box set like this exposes me to new repertoire, and I have to decide whether I find it worthwhile and convincing, and whether I need to seek out an alternative. These pieces are certainly worthwhile, and I must say that I find these renditions convincing. Zimerman's piano playing is both technically proficient and emotionally expressive. The BPO is well modulated behind him, and their sound melds together beautifully. The level of detail is great, while the depth of sound from bass tones up to treble peaks is also excellent. I can't really imagine much in the way of criticism for this one. I have seen reviews stating that the tempii are somewhat slow compared to the average. I can't say that for my part I was ever bored or found these renditions to be lagging. I suppose it's very broad and beauteous.
> *
> Rating: 9/10
> 
> Videos:*


I have been listening to this in advance of my outdoor concert at Millennium Park in Chicago tonight, and think I should have given it a 10. It's truly beauteous.


----------



## jambo

MatthewWeflen said:


> I have been listening to this in advance of my outdoor concert at Millennium Park in Chicago tonight, and think I should have given it a 10. It's truly beauteous.


This was the first disc I played after I got my Karajan 80's box and it's a real gem. Fantastic playing of fantastic music!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

jambo said:


> This was the first disc I played after I got my Karajan 80's box and it's a real gem. Fantastic playing of fantastic music!


Having now heard the live performance, I would possibly put it back at a 9. It was intensely moving in person in a way that the recording was not. Of course it's hard to say how much was influenced by other factors, such as it being the first live music I've heard in 16 months.

https://www.wfmt.com/2021/07/07/william-tell-overture/


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## MatthewWeflen

View attachment 140095


Apparently, this watercolor painting was BY MENDELSSOHN. I am listening to his chamber music presently and my estimation of him, which was already high, is increasing.


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## Kreisler jr

There might be others, but Mendelssohn was probably the second best painter among famous composers.


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## MatthewWeflen

Kreisler jr said:


> There might be others, but Mendelssohn was probably the second best painter among famous composers.


Who was the first?


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## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> Who was the first?


It's got to be Arnold Schoenberg.


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## Kreisler jr

I meant Schoenberg, of course, but admittedly I am not aware of a third person who was a great composer and at least good painter


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## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 11
> LP#2532012
> 
> View attachment 144750
> 
> 
> Tchaikovsky, Serenade for Strings, op. 48
> Dvořák, Serenade for Strings, op. 22
> Berliner Philharmoniker*
> 
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, September 1980
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 59:49
> 
> *Review: *Neither of these is my favorite piece for either composer, but they're undeniably well played. I do think that technically speaking, these recordings have been surpassed in quality by modern digital. But at least in this remaster, they are far from "bad." They are admirably free of hiss and they let the contrabasses and cellos really dig deep into the tonal range. But they do sound a tad "crunchy" like early digital can. I like the Tchaikovsky piece over the Dvořák. All in all, not bad, but not something that inspires frequent replay.
> *
> Overall Rating: 7/10
> 
> Videos:*


I just listened to Decca's 1969 album of the String Serenade by Marriner/Academy of St. Martin In The Fields, and it mops the floor with this DG release sonically. This confirms to me that my initial evaluation of this disc in terms of sound quality was on target.


----------



## FrankinUsa

Congratulations to the OP. You’ve shown commitment and gave a lot of time to this project


----------



## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> *1980's Disc 2
> LP#2532063
> 
> View attachment 144128
> 
> 
> Bruckner, Symphony No. 2 (1877 version)
> Berlin Philharmonic, orchestra
> *
> Recorded at Philharmonie, Berlin, December 1980 & January 1981
> Executive Producer: Günter Breest
> Recording Producer: Michel Glotz
> Balance Engineer: Günter Hermanns
> Total time: 60:07
> 
> *Review: *If there is a difference between the digital multi-track recordings of Bruckner and the Analog recordings of one or two years prior, I can't say I really notice it. The recording is clear and strong, with a definite feeling of space. I love the Scherzo particularly here. I think it's one of Bruckner's stronger ones, and the percussion part in the last 30 seconds is thrilling (41:47 in the appended video). As far as the material, I quite like the earlier Bruckner symphonies. I think they're very accessible and have memorable melodies. I can't really find a reason to fault this recording, as such I rate it...
> 
> *Overall Rating: 10/10*
> 
> *Video:*


I attended the Chicago Symphony Orchestra tonight to see a program of Mazzoli's Orpheus Undone, Mahler's Lieder and Bruckner 2. The performance was truly exceptional, and matched this recording for excitement (Muti's Bruckner is light years ahead of his Beethoven -- and this 80-year old man physically jumped atop the podium during a particularly intense moment). I was also in the front row of the first balcony, so things were particularly enjoyable both visually and sonically.









But now listening to the recording again it's really quite noteworthy how clear the orchestral textures and instrument groups are, in many ways exceeding the live experience (I will give the live performance a slight edge in tremolo and pizzicato, though, they were more forward in my mental mix). Karajan's digital DG output is really pretty great in spots, with Bruckner, Haydn, and Strauss being particular highlights.


----------



## Heck148

MatthewWeflen said:


> I was also in the front row of the first balcony, so things were particularly enjoyable both visually and sonically.


Those are awesome seats!! I always try for the furthest forward seats in the first balcony when I go to Orchestra Hall...


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Heck148 said:


> Those are awesome seats!! I always try for the furthest forward seats in the first balcony when I go to Orchestra Hall...


How often do you come down Chicago way?

I was quite impressed by the performance. CSO is truly world-class, and this material (and my seat location) helped remind me of that.


----------



## Heck148

MatthewWeflen said:


> How often do you come down Chicago way?
> 
> I was quite impressed by the performance. CSO is truly world-class, and this material (and my seat location) helped remind me of that.


Pre-covid, I would visit every year....my wife was from Chicago, we started re-visiting c2005, after she retired....CSO is great, they play so awesomely....
I love to catch 2 concerts when i go - the final concert on Tuesday evening, of the first series, then hear the 1st concert, on Thurs evening of the next series....on Wednesday night, I toot over to Buddy Guy's "Blues Legends" to take in some great local Blues groups!! Great fun, good food!!
Makes for a wonderful musical getaway..


----------



## Knorf

MatthewWeflen said:


> I attended the Chicago Symphony Orchestra tonight to see a program of Mazzoli's Orpheus Undone, Mahler's Lieder and Bruckner 2. The performance was truly exceptional, and matched this recording for excitement (Muti's Bruckner is light years ahead of his Beethoven -- and this 80-year old man physically jumped atop the podium during a particularly intense moment). I was also in the front row of the first balcony, so things were particularly enjoyable both visually and sonically.
> 
> View attachment 165603
> 
> 
> But now listening to the recording again it's really quite noteworthy how clear the orchestral textures and instrument groups are, in many ways exceeding the live experience (I will give the live performance a slight edge in tremolo and pizzicato, though, they were more forward in my mental mix). Karajan's digital DG output is really pretty great in spots, with Bruckner, Haydn, and Strauss being particular highlights.


Small world: my best friend was at that same concert!

But, yeah: I go to hear the CSO whenever I'm in Chicago, and in general they remain unquestionably a top-tier emsemble.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> *EMI Records, Album #LC 0233
> 
> View attachment 151085
> 
> 
> Schubert Complete Symphonies and Rosamunde Ballet Music
> Symphony No.1 In D D82
> Symphony No.2 In B Flat D125
> Symphony No.3 In D D200
> Symphony No.4 In C Minor D417 'Tragic'
> Symphony No.5 In B Flat D485
> Symphony No.6 In C D589
> Symphony No.8 In B Minor D759 'Unfinished'
> Symphony No.9 In C D944 'Great'
> Rosamunde - Overture and Ballet Music D797
> 
> Berliner Philharmoniker, orchestra*
> 
> Recorded: 8 Sep 1977 and 2-6 Jan 1978 (Sym 1-6, 9, Rosamunde); 10-12 June 1977 (Sym 8)
> Recording Venue: Berlin Philharmonie
> Balance Engineer: Wolfgang Gülich
> Producer: Michel Glotz
> Total time: 4:41:53
> 
> *Review: *This one has taken me a while because it was one big 5 LP release for EMI and it's nearly five hours of music. It was recorded in 1977 and 1978 for EMI at the Philharmonie. It shares some significant sonic characteristics with other recordings of that vintage - the 70s Brahms in particular. There are spots in which it is a bit boomy in terms of bass, which tends to obscure the mix. With that said, there are many spots with lovely lilt and detail. The 2nd movement of the 2nd symphony is one of my favorites in the whole set (11:08 in the appended Sym. 2 video). The moment it switches to the new tempo (15:45) gives a good feeling for the overall quality of the set - yes, it's a "big band sound." But at its best it is very involving and displays that classic HVK/BPO "Klang" for which they were so famous. Although it doesn't do this consistently, there is some good contrabass vibration detail present, especially as we get to the later symphonies. The Rosamunde music is played very well and is quite exciting.
> 
> I have two other Schubert cycles: Jos van Immerseel/Anima Eterna and Harnoncourt/Royal Concertgebouw. The Karajan trounces the 1992 DDD Harnoncourt recording for audio quality, though the performances are done in a similar style. The Immerseel is much fleeter and played in a HIP style. It's a different beast altogether, with correspondingly lighter, more airy digital sound (it was recorded in 1996-97).
> 
> This cycle was remastered by Warner Classics in 2014 as a part of their Karajan box sets of EMI material. The remaster went some way towards taming that bloomy sound, and is an improvement across the board.
> 
> I never fail to enjoy this set and frequently turn on one symphony or another only to find myself thinking "oh, just one or two more." It is consistently enjoyable in the way that HVK/BPO's best 1970s recordings can be - big and bold. I can't give it a 10 because of the room for audio improvement. But a 9 feels right to me.
> 
> *Rating: 9/10*


I purchased a new Schubert cycle on a whim in advance of attending a concert in the park featuring the Unfinished. It is the Brilliant Classics Blomstedt/Dresden Staatskapelle collection. For $6 I feel very good about the purchase.






Anyway, listening through it inspired me to do some spot comparisons with the Karajan/BPO cycle on EMI reviewed here. It's funny, as I listened to the Blomstedt, I frequently thought to myself "wow, that texture/instrument is really clear." Then I would go back to the Karajan/BPO, expecting it to be muddier. But.... it really wasn't. I could hear the same woodwinds, tympani, etc. The EMI recording is quite good. It was an exercise in how the "conventional wisdom" can color one's expectations.

Anyway, in terms of comparisons, the overall balance of orchestral sound is very similar - the Blomstedt set has been called "big boned," which I agree with. It is a modern instrument, big sound, high quality recording. The tempii are generally either similar to or slightly faster than the Karajan/BPO. It's really excellent overall, and may be my first choice (or something I pick and choose between with the Karajan). But it confirms my personal take on the Karajan/BPO/EMI - it is not a bad set and one could do a lot worse for a complete cycle.


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