# Why did so many sopranos of the past deem Gutrune an ungrateful role?



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Lotte Lehmann and Rysanek dumped the part quickly. Hilde Konetzni in contrast loved the part and said the character developed to be on a par with Brunnhilde. It seems like unlike Sieglinde this part isn't for most singers a prep for Brunnhilde, though Varnay sang it at the Met in her early career there and Modl at Bayreuth before her Brunnhildes there. It seems to be a higher lying jugendliche dramatische part. The ideal voice for this part could be Rethberg.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The answer is no doubt that Gutrune hasn't an awful lot to do and has no extended lyrical or dramatic passages to sing. Sieglinde has plenty of both. Gutrune's most notable scene, the brief one in Act 3 where she waits anxiously for Siegfried's return fron the hunt, is notable more for the moody orchestral writing than for the singing. If the soprano can act she might make something of the role, and with any luck she won't be dressed as a hooker, as she appears to be at Bayreuth this year. A full-toned lyric soprano can cope nicely with her music, and she needs to sound pretty. As far as I'm concerned the Varnays and Modls of the world should stay away.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The answer is no doubt that Gutrune hasn't an awful lot to do and has no extended lyrical or dramatic passages to sing. Sieglinde has plenty of both. Gutrune's most notable scene, the brief one in Act 3 where she waits anxiously for Siegfried's return fron the hunt, is notable more for the moody orchestral writing than for the singing. If the soprano can act she might make something of the role, and with any luck she won't be dressed as a hooker, as she appears to be at Bayreuth this year. A full-toned lyric soprano can cope nicely with her music, and she needs to sound pretty. As far as I'm concerned the Varnays and Modls of the world should stay away.


And that’s if they don’t cut the Act 3 scene!🤨


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> And that’s if they don’t cut the Act 3 scene!🤨


An inexplicable move by Wieland. No one is perfect.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Francasacchi said:


> Lotte Lehmann and Rysanek dumped the part quickly. Hilde Konetzni in contrast loved the part and said the character developed to be on a par with Brunnhilde. It seems like unlike Sieglinde this part isn't for most singers a prep for Brunnhilde, though Varnay sang it at the Met in her early career there and Modl at Bayreuth before her Brunnhildes there. It seems to be a higher lying jugendliche dramatische part. The ideal voice for this part could be Rethberg.


Not sure about Rethberg being the ideal voice for Gutrune. Did she sing it? And how does one define the ideal voice for it? In any case, I am in agreement with Woodduck in that the role has no extended lyrical or dramatic passages. But I disagree, however, about she (Gutrune) _needing to sound pretty_. !!! For there is little to nothing in the writing of the role suggestive of such a requirement. Here is a truncated Act III, Scene 3 for those of you interested.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> I am in agreement with Woodduck in that the role has no extended lyrical or dramatic passages. But I disagree, however, about she (Gutrune) _needing to sound pretty_. !!! For there is little to nothing in the writing of the role suggestive of such a requirement.


So...Should Gutrune sound unattractive? Homely? Nasty? Vicious? Siegfried certainly finds her appealing, and the dramatic illusion is surely best served if we do too. Even from a purely musical standpoint, it's nice to have a lovely, sweetly lyrical voice that contrasts with the weightier dramatic soprano of Brunnhilde, whoever that might be. In the Solti recording, for example, Claire Watson's lovely timbre contrasts nicely with Birgit Nilsson's valkyrian brilliance and force.

I'd say that Studer seems to have the right sort of voice for the part, even in a poor recording.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> So...Should Gutrune sound unattractive? Homely? Nasty? Vicious? Siegfried certainly finds her appealing, and the dramatic illusion is surely best served if we do too. Even from a purely musical standpoint, it's nice to have a lovely, sweetly lyrical voice that contrasts with the weightier dramatic soprano of Brunnhilde, whoever that might be. In the Solti recording, for example, Claire Watson's lovely timbre contrasts nicely with Birgit Nilsson's valkyrian brilliance and force.
> 
> I'd say that Studer seems to have the right sort of voice for the part, even in a poor recording.


No, not that she should sound like any of those things. But I don’t hear any indication in her music, harmonically/structurally, that demands explicit loveliness, despite Siegfried’s attraction to her. That attraction is more likely achieved through other means, meaning acting or something scenically. But not exactly vocally, by the demands of the score, even if we don’t want Gutrune to turn into a virago. In any case, I am familiar with Watson for Solti. Studer recorded the part for Levine presumably under better acoustical conditions, a recording which I haven’t heard in eons and, therefore, have lost all recollection of it. But will revisit soon.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> No, not that she should sound like any of those things. But I don’t hear any indication in her music, harmonically/structurally, that demands explicit loveliness, despite Siegfried’s attraction to her. That attraction is more likely achieved through other means, meaning acting or something scenically. But not exactly vocally, by the demands of the score, even if we don’t want Gutrune to turn into a virago.


What roles require lovely voices for harmonic/structural reasons? I'm not sure I know what you mean by that. I'm only suggesting that voices like Watson's and Studer's project Gutrune's character better than, say, heavier, darker voices like Varnay's or Modl's. I'm sure you'd agree that vocal timbre can go some way toward creating dramatic illusion. If Siegfried is captivated at the sight of Gutrune - whether it's drug-induced or not (which is another discussion) - I prefer that she look and sound pretty. Besides, the orchestral music that accompanies her is lovely indeed, and when she sings "Wilkommen, Gast!" a pretty voice that can float the line, as Watson's can, seems just what the composer ordered. If not, I'll order it for him!


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Which is why I suggested Rethberg as being eminently suitable. A gorgeous voice with enough heft to make the vocal and dramatic points. I don't think she sang it. (Her attempt at the Siegfried Brunnhilde did not go well, but it was late for her.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> Which is why I suggested Rethberg as being eminently suitable. A gorgeous voice with enough heft to make the vocal and dramatic points. I don't think she sang it. (Her attempt at the Siegfried Brunnhilde did not go well, but it was late for her.)


I didn't know Rethberg attempted Brunnhilde. Melba did too, and regretted it.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

When Flagstad went back to Norway and Marjorie Lawrence contracted polio, there was a hochdramatische shortage at the Met, and Rethberg agreed to sing the Siegfried Brunnhilde I think in 1942. It was ill-advised for her at that time.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I didn't know Rethberg attempted Brunnhilde.


Neither did I, but Rethberg seems to have been one of the most versatile singers of her time, with more than a 100 roles in her repertoire.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Worth mentioning that Studer sang, not in staged performances but in concert, the Walküre Brünnhilde. That was in 2001, in Budapest, with Iván Fischer and his Budapest Festival Orchestra. Don’t think she sang it again. She certainly never sang the Siegfried or Götterdämmerung Brünnhildes.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

I see that Hilde Konetzni sang the Third Norn and the Acts I & II Gutrune (Judith Hellwig sang the Act III Gutrune) in the 1949 Rudolf Moralt _Götterdämmerung_.










We know that Studer sang both roles, too. (The two tracks below were extracted from the same performance in which she sang both). Who else?


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

ALT said:


> I see that Hilde Konetzni sang the Third Norn and the Acts I & II Gutrune (Judith Hellwig sang the Act III Gutrune) in the 1949 Rudolf Moralt _Götterdämmerung_.
> 
> View attachment 173383
> 
> ...


I wonder why Hellwig sang Act 3. Did Konetzni become ill?


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Francasacchi said:


> I wonder why Hellwig sang Act 3. Did Konetzni become ill?


It’s possible.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> Lotte Lehmann and Rysanek dumped the part quickly. Hilde Konetzni in contrast loved the part and said the character developed to be on a par with Brunnhilde. It seems like unlike Sieglinde this part isn't for most singers a prep for Brunnhilde, though Varnay sang it at the Met in her early career there and Modl at Bayreuth before her Brunnhildes there. It seems to be a higher lying jugendliche dramatische part. The ideal voice for this part could be Rethberg.


It's not much of a role though, is it, and I'm guessing that some of the better known singers, who have sung it on studio recordings (Watson and Janowitz, for instance) would probably turn it down on stage. If it were an Italian opera, I've no doubt it would be classed as a comprimaria role.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It's not much of a role though, is it, and I'm guessing that some of the better known singers, who have sung it on studio recordings (Watson and Janowitz, for instance) would probably turn it down on stage. If it were an Italian opera, I've no doubt it would be classed as a comprimaria role.


Stignani sang it early in her career in Italy. She also sang Waltraute.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It's not much of a role though, is it, and I'm guessing that some of the better known singers, who have sung it on studio recordings (Watson and Janowitz, for instance) would probably turn it down on stage. If it were an Italian opera, I've no doubt it would be classed as a comprimaria role.


Grummer sang it on stage at Bayreuth.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> Grummer sang it on stage at Bayreuth.


Bayreuth is special, and I suspect Wieland Wagner, whom singers respected and loved working with, was hard to resist when he asked her to do it. I'm not aware that she sang it elsewhere, once she was in demand for other things.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Bayreuth is special, and I suspect Wieland Wagner, whom singers respected and loved working with, was hard to resist when he asked her to do it. I'm not aware that she sang it elsewhere, once she was in demand for other things.


She did sing Freia in the Furtwangler RAI Ring. Otherwise, she stuck to Elsa, Elisabeth, and Eva


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Bayreuth is special, and I suspect Wieland Wagner, whom singers respected and loved working with, was hard to resist when he asked her to do it. I'm not aware that she sang it elsewhere, once she was in demand for other things.


Indeed. 

Schwarzkopf sang First Rhinemaiden there in 1951, the same year she sang Eva. I think it was her only Bayreuth season.


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