# Favourite St John Passion



## DavidA

Easter coming up so time to discuss Bach's Passions maybe. The St John might not be quite the supreme achievement of the St Matthew but it is a vitally dramatic work with an intensely moving narrative and some of Bach's greatest music. I've four versions in my collection of this work but wondered first what are your favourites?


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## Pugg

​
Bach, J.S.: Johannes-Passion/ Schreier

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Richter at no 2

Those two has it all for me, I am no HIP customer in general so I stay with traditional.


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## Manxfeeder

I had Parrott, but it wasn't doing it for me. Gardiner seemed to reflect the sense of countdown to the cross that I think Bach was intending. I stopped looking after I found that recording.


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## wkasimer

Tough to pick - there are a lot of excellent recordings, HIP and non-HIP.

The non-HIP versions that I play most often are these:

Willcocks:









It's in English, and the sound is a little overreverberant, but the solo singing is terrific, particularly Helen Watts and David Ward. It's available on CD, but hard to find:









Gonnenwein:









One of the best modern instrument versions - just look at that solo lineup.

Forster:









Hard to pass up a chance to hear Wunderlich's Evangelist, along with Grummer and Ludwig.


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## wkasimer

For HIP, there are lots of excellent choices (assuming that one wants HIP).

Rene Jacobs:









A much lesser-known recording is Kenneth Slowik's, on the Smithsonian label:















A superb performance, which includes arias and choruses from the 1725 version (it's a shame that the tenor aria "Zerschmettert Mich" isn't often recorded, and certainly not as well as Tony Boutte sings it here). Excellent notes, written by Slowik. This one can be had on Amazon Marketplace for very few $$$.


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## DavidA

Just taking the versions I have I think the Jacob's comes out on top as a highly dramatic performance with excellent soloists. It also includes some alternatives from the first version as an appendix.

Suzuki is good in a very devotional way.

Gardiner I always find a little cold in Bach but I know many will disagree. It is superbly sung of course.

Bruggen is really interesting. Live performance with more of orchestra than one usually hears. Some interesting points he makes such as the first entry of 'Herr' is almost whispered by the choir. I really enjoyed this even though not my first choice


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## WildThing

What does everyone make of Harnoncourt's second (1993) recording?










It's the only version I have at the moment, so nothing to compare it to.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

There are so many excellent recordings to choose from, but I'm very fond of Peter Dijkstra's 2016 recording with the Concerto Köln and the Bavarian Radio Choir - a remarkably vivid performance in excellent sound. 

I'd also recommend John Butt's recording with his Dunedin Consort, in which he tries to recreate what the original performance might have been like. He intersperses the Passion with the occasional congregational hymn and organ solo, with the first chorus "Herr, unser Herrscher" made - if possible! - even more dramatic by preceding it with a magnificent Buxtehude organ prelude. Thrilling stuff.


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## JSBach85

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I'd also recommend John Butt's recording with his Dunedin Consort, in which he tries to recreate what the original performance might have been like. He intersperses the Passion with the occasional congregational hymn and organ solo, with the first chorus "Herr, unser Herrscher" made - if possible! - even more dramatic by preceding it with a magnificent Buxtehude organ prelude. Thrilling stuff.


John Butt's recording is among my favourite OVPP performances and I will be back to this recording soon. I have been listening to samples of Herreweghe's recording in Harmonia Mundi that is 1725 version which does not contain Herr, unser Herrscher opening choir:










Do you know if Herreweghe has recorded one of the other versions: 1724 or 1749?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

JSBach85 said:


> Do you know if Herreweghe has recorded one of the other versions: 1724 or 1749?


Yes, he has. His 1989 recording includes the "Herr, unser Herrscher" chorus. Like most of his Bach - whether the passions or the cantatas - both Herreweghe recordings of the _Johannes-Passion_ are excellent.


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## JSBach85

WildThing said:


> What does everyone make of Harnoncourt's second (1993) recording?
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> It's the only version I have at the moment, so nothing to compare it to.


It's one of my best recordings, I purchased it after the first Harnoncourt recording from 60s that I found to be very weak in conducting. This one is very well balanced despite doesn't have an excellent vocal cast (I'd rather go with Herreweghe, Suzuki, Pierlot in this aspect) but conducting is very solid and has good contrast.


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## JSBach85

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Yes, he has. His 1989 recording includes the "Herr, unser Herrscher" chorus. Like most of his Bach - whether the passions or the cantatas - both Herreweghe recordings of the _Johannes-Passion_ are excellent.


Could be this recording?










With Howard Crook and Peter Kooy I can't go wrong. It's available at amazon.de at budget price so I think I will get it. Thank you.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

JSBach85 said:


> Could be this recording?


That's the one! If you can get it at budget price, it's even more of a bargain


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## Itullian

I'm very happy with the Suzuki.
I am a fan of his Bach.


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## JSBach85

DavidA said:


> I've four versions in my collection of this work but wondered first what are your favourites?


Those are my recordings:

Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra - Ton Koopman (Erato, 1st recording)
Concentus Musicus Wien - Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Teldec, 3rd recording)
Bach Collegium Japan - Masaaki Suzuki (BIS)
Taverner Consort & Players - Andrew Parrott (Virgin 2x1)
The Netherlands Bach Society - Jos van Veldhoven (Channel Classics)
Ricercar Consort - Philippe Pierlot (Mirare)
Cantus Cölln - Konrad Junghänel (Accent)
Dunedin Consort & Players - John Butt (Linn Records)
English Baroque Soloists - John Eliot Gardiner (1st recording Archiv Produktion)
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment - Stephen Layton (Hyperion records)
La Chapelle Rhenane - Benoit Haller (Zig-Zag Territoires)

Ordered today: Orchestre de la Chapelle Royale Paris - Philippe Herreweghe (1st recording Harmonia Mundi, 1724 version)

I am happy with all of recordings but my favourites are: Suzuki, Veldhoven, Pierlot, Junghänel. I am also interested in Herreweghe's 1725 version (Harmonia Mundi) and Kuijken (Challenge Classics).


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## JSBach85

Itullian said:


> I'm very happy with the Suzuki.
> I am a fan of his Bach.


Generally for JS Bach vocal works I rather prefer Suzuki over Gardiner, probably Bach Collegium Japan choir is not as great as Monteverdi Choir but conducting is clearer and academically more accurate.


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## BachIsBest

My personal favourite is Stephen Layton, Polyphony, and the OAE. Period instruments, and HIP choices but still with a bit larger choir. Plus the performance itself is fantastic.


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## JSBach85

BachIsBest said:


> My personal favourite is Stephen Layton, Polyphony, and the OAE. Period instruments, and HIP choices but still with a bit larger choir. Plus the performance itself is fantastic.


This is also among my favourite recordings, the clarity, the conducting and the orchestra makes Layton one of the references for this work.

I finally got Herreweghe, 1724 version. It's also a great recording and remembered me how I esteem La Chapelle Royale and Herreweghe conducting, being among my favourite conductors for JS Bach vocal works. Howard Crook and Peter Kooy are exceptional and the orchestra plays really well. I read good comments about Herreweghe's 1725 version recording as well:










It will probably be my next purchase...


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## realdealblues

It's after Easter now but my favorites remain the same:

Karl Richter








Eugen Jochum


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## JSBach85

realdealblues said:


> It's after Easter now but my favorites remain the same:


I listen to Passions the entire year, not only from JS Bach, but from other composers as well: Telemann, Sebastiani, Homilius, Feo, Lassus, Graun, Keiser.


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## Enthusiast

Well after Easter now but I have several favourites - I can't choose - including a couple that may not have been mentioned yet.

In English:









And in HIP:


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## Star

I think Jacobs holds the field on account of its intensely dramatic approach and Gura is a superb evangelist


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## Guest

I came to a much greater understanding of this wonderful work - St. John Passion - when I sang in the alto section in a performance of the work with a university choir and orchestra. It had been translated into English by the conductor - a catholic priest (a superb musician) who went to jail later for the sexual abuse of minors!!


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## premont

Recently I acquired this one:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...85-1750-Johannes-Passion-BWV-245/hnum/8259949

And it surpassed all my expectations. The only problem is the first soprano aria, because the boy soprano seems a little breathless and nervous, but the two boy altos are superb. And high praise must go to the evangelist Kurt Equiluz and the choir. This is a very dramatic interpretation.


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## Marc

premont said:


> Recently I acquired this one:
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...85-1750-Johannes-Passion-BWV-245/hnum/8259949
> 
> And it surpassed all my expectations. The only problem is the first soprano aria, because the boy soprano seems a little breathless and nervous, but the two boy altos are superb. And high praise must go to the evangelist Kurt Equiluz and the choir. This is a very dramatic interpretation.


I could have risen your expectations. 

Even though it's been a long time since I heard/saw this one, I agree entirely with the positive remarks. I forgot about the boy soprano, but I do recall the boy altos (also very good interpretation-wise). And, as Evangelist, Kurt Equiluz was/is primus inter pares. Heard and saw him 'live' during my college years (for 2 decades, he was the first choice of conductor Charles de Wolff) ... that was awesome. 
Some might complain about the less perfect sound of the period instruments, but that has never been a problem to me.


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## Marc

JSBach85 said:


> This is also among my favourite recordings, the clarity, the conducting and the orchestra makes Layton one of the references for this work.
> 
> I finally got Herreweghe, 1724 version. It's also a great recording and remembered me how I esteem La Chapelle Royale and Herreweghe conducting, being among my favourite conductors for JS Bach vocal works. Howard Crook and Peter Kooy are exceptional and the orchestra plays really well. I read good comments about Herreweghe's 1725 version recording as well:
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> It will probably be my next purchase...


Have to say that I prefer Herreweghe's 1724/'normal' version. The 1725 recording is more slick, and the pauses between the tracks are too long, which kinda destroys the drama and the tension.


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## JSBach85

I got this recording yesterday:










I am listening to it right now. In my opinion, I find it a fine performance of the 1725 version of the St John Passion. I also own the older recording of 1724 version recorded in 1988 thanks to Reichstag aus LICHT recommendation and I prefer this one because in 1725's version Herr, unser Herrscher chorus is missing. But in this 1725 recording I like most of the soloists (Sibylla Rubens, Andreas Scholl, Mark Padmore), the choir and orchestra are excellent, and conducting is well-balanced. However, I purchased it used and unfortunately booklet is missing. If someone knows a book or a reference or has further information of 1725's version I would appreciate if can share it with me.


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## premont

JSBach85 said:


> I also own the older recording of 1724 version recorded in 1988 thanks to Reichstag aus LICHT recommendation and I prefer this one because in 1725's version Herr, unser Herrscher chorus is missing... *However, I purchased it used and unfortunately booklet is missing.* If someone knows a book or a reference or has further information of 1725's version I would appreciate if can share it with me.


Incidentally I purchased it from a AMP seller a few weeks ago - and the booklet was missing . This had not been mentioned by the seller beforehand . Actually this is the first booklet which is missing from the many hundreds of CDs I have purchased from AMP sellers.


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## premont

Marc said:


> Some might complain about the less perfect sound of the period instruments, but that has never been a problem to me.


Nor for me, neither here nor in the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt cantatas set.


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## Guest

Small is beautiful,I don't argue with that but what is wrong with a choir and I do not referring to the "Fischer Chore "


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## Guest

Traverso said:


> Small is beautiful,I don't argue with that but what is wrong with a choir and I do not referring to the "Fischer Chore "


I've seen this splendid ensemble twice - both times conducting for baroque opera. But I don't have a recording of them with Bach.

This performance of their B Minor Mass sounds beautifully translucent and articulate but a bit low-energy:


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## Marc

JSBach85 said:


> I got this recording yesterday:
> 
> [...]
> 
> If someone knows a book or a reference or has further information of 1725's version I would appreciate if can share it with me.


The Herreweghe 1725 recording is from 2001, and, given what was already known about the various versions, the booklet is shamefully short and non-informative. So, 'no love lost' there. 

I think you'll have to bear in mind that there is NO complete autograph/copy of the 1724 version. The first Herreweghe recording isn't the 1724 version, but a mixture from the versions of 1724, 1739 and 1749. This is also the version published in the Neue Bach Ausgabe.

Only 2 complete versions have completely survived: the 1725 and 1749 ones.

Bach composed the SJP for Good Friday in 1724. What has remained from that version, shows that, among other things, there were no traverso flutes; the opening choir ("Herr, unser Herrscher") was different; the denial by Petrus was taken from the St. Matthew Gospel and the 'earthquake' passage by the Evangelist was from the St. Mark Gospel.

In 1725, Bach was in the middle of his so-called 'chorale cantata year', and probably therefore the opening choir was replaced by the great _Choralbearbeitung_ "O Mensch, bewein dein' Sünde groß". Besides that, a few arias and choruses were either replaced or added. The oddest add-on was the aria for bass (with chorus) "Himmel reiße, Welt erbebe", immediately after the chorale "Wer hat dich so geschlagen?". The lyrics of this added aria, which refer to the Golgotha earthquake, do not correspond with the actual action. 
The closing chorale of the passion was replaced by another large chorale arrangement: "Christe, du Lamm Gottes" (from BWV 23). 
Bach also changed the 'earthquake' passage by composing a new Evangelist part with a passage from the St. Matthew Gospel.
Many changes, replacements and add-ons were (maybe maybe maybe ) taken from a now lost Passion that Bach had composed in Weimar (performed in Gotha 1717). 
Apart from all this, the instrumentation of the 1725 performance was different from the 1724 version (a.o. added flutes).

For a third performance of the SJP, in 1728 or 1732, Bach returned to the 1724 version, with changed instrumentation, and without the add-ons from the St. Matthew Gospel. Instead of the earthquake passage, an instrumental Sinfonia (now lost) was performed.

In 1739, Bach began to pen down a fair copy of the SJP, but his handwriting breaks off after no. 10, probably because the town council had told him that there would be no performance of a large passion that year.

In 1749, Bach returned for the final time to the SJP. Again, the base was the 1724 version, with, again, several changes in instrumentation. The basso continuo section was expaned with an extra harpsichord and with a contra-bassoon. He also changed the lyrics of some of the arias, and some passages appear to be recomposed (f.i. for the Evangelist, in the alto aria "Von den Stricken meiner Sünden", et al).

I kept this 'story' as short as possible... and there are of course uncertainties concerning the versions, mainly because only 2 of them entirely survived. I'm too lazy to check everything out, but IIRC the booklet of the Suzuki 1749 recording (BIS) is probably the most informative about each and every version. It's a good performance, too, so my advice would be: buy that one, read the booklet, correct all the mistakes I made in this posting, and... enjoy the music!


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## Biffo

JSBach85 said:


> I got this recording yesterday:
> 
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> 
> I am listening to it right now. In my opinion, I find it a fine performance of the 1725 version of the St John Passion. I also own the older recording of 1724 version recorded in 1988 thanks to Reichstag aus LICHT recommendation and I prefer this one because in 1725's version Herr, unser Herrscher chorus is missing. But in this 1725 recording I like most of the soloists (Sibylla Rubens, Andreas Scholl, Mark Padmore), the choir and orchestra are excellent, and conducting is well-balanced. However, I purchased it used and unfortunately booklet is missing. If someone knows a book or a reference or has further information of 1725's version I would appreciate if can share it with me.


As Marc says the booklet is inadequate so apart from the text not a great loss. Gardiner's recording has a slightly more informative booklet, but not much. However, Gardiner's book 'Music in the Castle of Heaven' has a substantial chapter (over 50 pages) on the 'First Passion'.


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## Marc

Biffo said:


> As Marc says the booklet is inadequate so apart from the text not a great loss. Gardiner's recording has a slightly more informative booklet, but not much. However, Gardiner's book 'Music in the Castle of Heaven' has a substantial chapter (over 50 pages) on the 'First Passion'.


True, but that's more an exegesis/interpretation of the work, without too much explanation about the various versions.

Btw, here's the text of the 1725 version (with English translation).

http://emmanuelmusic.org/notes_translations/translations_cantata/t_bwv245a.htm


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## JSBach85

Thanks for the information. I just read the Suzuki's booklet notes and seems to be very informative of each version. Suzuki performs 1749 version that has also been recorded by other conductors such as Konrad Junghanel and René Jacobs.


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## JosefinaHW

I have several recordings that I listen to regularly, but my absolute favorite thus far is the Berlin Philharmonic's staging or ritualization of the Passion. There are no words that can adequately describe what makes this masterpiece one of the most amazing things I've ever encountered in my life, but just to give an idea.

Many very thoughtful and wise people brain- and body-stormed together to bring the music into three-dimensions. They realized that the work is timeless and extremely contemporary and worked together to try and convey the contemporaneity through the combinations of bodies, voices and instruments. They were well-aware of the majority of the performance history of the work and did not limit themselves to a single performance style: i.e., HIP versus all other styles, so they used particular instruments based on the meanings they wanted to emphasize. The singers obviously put their body and souls into the music they were performing. Mark Padmore is EXTRAORDINARY as the evangelist. Magdalena Kozena's expressions and powerful voice are magnificent. Christian Gerhaher is the most amazing Pontious Pilate--his dynamic range is just perfect for Pilate's music; and the Berlin Philharmonic is THE Berlin Philarhmonic.

The concert isn't free, but it is priceless to me.

www.digitalconcerthall.com Under Concerts, search Composer; then under Conductors, Simon Rattle; then scroll down to the St. John Passion.

Here are two YouTube clips, but they just don't even come close to the power of this performance:

Re/ those "infamous" Jewish Choruses, they represent any and all of us when we trample, mock, harm each other:






Gerhaher sings in the place of every human being who ever lived:


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## steph01

This is the only version I own, and most excellent it is. However the work is not my favourite cup of tea so I haven't yet felt the need to acquire any other versions:


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## JSBach85

My last purchase of St John Passion BWV 245:

Johannes-Passion - Kuijken/La Petite Bande (Challenge Classics)









I wanted to get another OVPP version since I like the clarity and the balance between instruments and voices with smaller/chamber choir that seems to fit well with passions. Kuijken gives a good academic conducting but this recording lacks of luminosity, contrast and is a little plain. The vocal forces are correct but an OVPP recording demands better soloists, however I would recommend this recording to those committed to Rifkin's OVPP theory for Bach sacred vocal works.

At the time I own 14 recordings split by OVPP and VVPP practices:

OVPP recordings:

Ricercar Consort - Philippe Pierlot (Mirare)
Cantus Cölln - Konrad Junghänel (Accent)
Dunedin Consort & Players - John Butt (Linn Records)
Taverner Consort & Players - Andrew Parrott (Virgin 2x1)
La Petite Bande - Sigiswald Kuijken (Challenge Classics)

VVPP recordings:

Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra - Ton Koopman (Erato, 1st recording)
Concentus Musicus Wien - Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Teldec, 3rd recording)
Bach Collegium Japan - Masaaki Suzuki (BIS)
The Netherlands Bach Society - Jos van Veldhoven (Channel Classics)
English Baroque Soloists - John Eliot Gardiner (1st recording Archiv Produktion)
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment - Stephen Layton (Hyperion records)
La Chapelle Rhenane - Benoit Haller (Zig-Zag Territoires)
Orchestre de la Chapelle Royale Paris/Collegium Vocale Gent - Philippe Herreweghe Version 1724 (Harmonia Mundi)
Collegium Vocale Gent - Philippe Herreweghe Version 1725 (Harmonia Mundi)

My favourite recordings remains Suzuki, Veldhoven, Pierlot, Harnoncourt 3rd.


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## 13hm13

Here's one that I'm spinning currently (on CD!) ...







Notes
Total Time: CD1 65:23, CD2 51:30
(p) 1971 Teldec Schallplatten GmbH
(c) 1987 Teldec Schallplatten GmbH - Heußweg 25 • 2000 Hamburg 20.
Printed in West Germany

However, discogs.com reports a release as early as 1966. Anyone confirm this?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

JSBach85 said:


> OVPP recordings:
> 
> Ricercar Consort - Philippe Pierlot (Mirare)
> Cantus Cölln - Konrad Junghänel (Accent)
> Dunedin Consort & Players - John Butt (Linn Records)
> Taverner Consort & Players - Andrew Parrott (Virgin 2x1)
> La Petite Bande - Sigiswald Kuijken (Challenge Classics)


I like the Pierlot and Parrott recordings very much, however my favourite is John Butt's - primarily because he tries to reconstruct a full performance, including congregational hymns, sermons and organ music. There's a fantastic organ prelude by Buxtehude which leads dramatically into the opening chorus of the Passion itself, with startling effect.

Edit: I just noticed that I said much the same in a post two years ago, so apologies for repeating myself! Just goes to show that I still enjoy the Dunedin Consort's recording, I suppose


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## Enthusiast

Britten's recording is a great one. I also have and greatly enjoy Pierlot, Higginbottom and Suzuki.


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## DavidA

Itullian said:


> I'm very happy with the Suzuki.
> I am a fan of his Bach.


Suzuki is a devote Lutheran so feels he has a connection to Bach. This is very good indeed


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## Marc

13hm13 said:


> Here's one that I'm spinning currently (on CD!) ...
> View attachment 128693
> 
> Notes
> Total Time: CD1 65:23, CD2 51:30
> (p) 1971 Teldec Schallplatten GmbH
> (c) 1987 Teldec Schallplatten GmbH - Heußweg 25 • 2000 Hamburg 20.
> Printed in West Germany
> 
> However, discogs.com reports a release as early as 1966. Anyone confirm this?


Recorded in April 1965. Hans Gillesberger was actually the conductor, but his assistant Harnoncourt (who was the conductor of Concentus Musicus Wien) and his vision/approach had a huge influence. As had, without a doubt, Gustav Leonhardt, who was the continuo leader in the arias and the recitatives.
First issue in 1966 (I think).
2nd issue in 1971 (this is the vinyl box that I have).
1987 would be the first issue on compact disc.

Here's a discussion about recording date, issue date and who was actually the conductor, including a message from Gillesberger's grandson:
https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV245-Gillesberger.htm


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## DavidA

Versions I have:

































All have something to offer in this marvellous work.


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## Allegro Con Brio

A towering work that contains some of Bach's most strikingly, overwhelmingly beautiful music. With St. Matthew performances I look for stellar soloists and an overall conception that make the exceptionally long composition hang together, but with the St. John it's all about captivating drama. I really love Jochum in both Passions, but especially the St. John - it's not what you'd expect "old-school" Bach to sound like at all, save for the large choir. There's also a great YouTube performance with Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan where they use only 16 singers, and which is pretty amazing for the limited forces.


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## Guest002

I love the Suzuki and Butt versions, but the one I keep coming back to is one I've not seen mentioned so far (and I realise I'm kind of necro-bumping!):









An unmatched rendering of 'Herr, unser Herrscher' to start with, I think, and it never drops after that!


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## gellio

Jacobs is my #1. Herreweghe #2.


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## Guest

I absolutely adore this incredible work and prefer HIP versions. I only learned recently that Bach wrote a St. Mark Passion between the St. John and St. Matthew and that only the libretto survived. A great pity.


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## gellio

Christabel said:


> I absolutely adore this incredible work and prefer HIP versions. I only learned recently that Bach wrote a St. Mark Passion between the St. John and St. Matthew and that only the libretto survived. A great pity.


And a St. Luke Passion.


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## Guest

gellio said:


> And a St. Luke Passion.


I had no idea; there wasn't any mention of this in the notes I read with my latest CD!!


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## cumin

*Thanks for the Djikstra version; compelling 'Herr, unser Herrscher'*



AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I love the Suzuki and Butt versions, but the one I keep coming back to is one I've not seen mentioned so far (and I realise I'm kind of necro-bumping!):
> 
> View attachment 133492
> 
> 
> An unmatched rendering of 'Herr, unser Herrscher' to start with, I think, and it never drops after that!


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## Guest

cumin said:


>


*Absolutely stunning*!! My only version of this work is with La Petite Bande and it isn't as taut and dramatic as this one; at times, it's a little sloppy and somehow lacking confidence actually. I've sung this Passion (in English, grrrr) with a university choir and it's just so different from the St. Matthew. This "Herr, unser Herrscher" is much faster than in the version I own. The driving rhythm is very compelling too. However just one caveat: I often wonder if Bach's choral forces were actually this big; I don't like too big!!

Both these miraculous Passions by Bach are moving to the point of tears.


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## Marc

Christabel said:


> I absolutely adore this incredible work and prefer HIP versions. I only learned recently that Bach wrote a St. Mark Passion between the St. John and St. Matthew and that only the libretto survived. A great pity.


It's (almost) commonly believed that parts from the secular cantata BWV 198 (Trauer-Ode "Laß, Fürstin, laß noch einen Strahl") were used (as a so-called _parody_) in the Markus-Passion. Scholars tend to believe that Bach did not put as much time into this particular Passion, compared to the 2 well known Passions, because the Leipzig council had asked him to be a bit more reticent in his use of arias and ariosos, and instead make more use of chorale melodies. As Picander's surviving libretto shows, the Markus-Passion had only 6 arias, which is not a lot compared to the 16 chorale settings.
There are a few recordings of (semi-)reconstructions of this Markus-Passion BWV 247. AFAIK, the only one who did not take the BWV 198 Trauer-Ode as a basis was Ton Koopman. I don't find his choices very convincing though. OTOH: Koopman did an awesome job in re-composing the 'secco' recitatives. They truly sound very Bach-like, IMHO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mark_Passion,_BWV_247


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## Marc

gellio said:


> And a St. Luke Passion.


That's not proven though.

The score of the Lukas-Passion BWV 246 is most certainly not a composition by J.S. Bach. He and his son C.P.E. Bach made a copy of another composer's work and it's very likely that Bach staged/performed it. During his Leipzig years, Bach did perform quite a few Passions or Passion Oratorios by other composers actually. The style of BWV 246 is, IMHO, already more related to music of C.P.E.'s generation. Several possible composers have been mentioned, among them Johann Melchior Molter, but there are still serious doubts about its authorship.

IIRC, both C.P.E. Bach and Bach's first biographer Forkel did mention 5 passions composed by J.S. Bach. We know about BWV 244, 245 and the (mostly) lost BWV 247. It is now believed that Bach did compose a Passion during his Weimar period, for the Court of Gotha, in the year 1717. And maybe C.P.E. Bach and Forkel considered the 2 main different versions of BWV 245 (1724/1739/1749 and 1725) as 2 different works. It's also possible that Bach did compose another Passion-Oratorium, maybe on Picander's _Erbauliche Gedanken auf den Grünen Donnerstag und Charfreitag über den Leidenden Jesum_. Some parts of this epic poem were already used for arias in BWV 244, but a few scholars have mentioned the possiblity that Bach might have used more 'stuff' from this poem for another Good Friday work.

It's still kind of a guessing game though.


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## Guest

Marc said:


> That's not proven though.
> 
> The score of the Lukas-Passion BWV 246 is most certainly not a composition by J.S. Bach. He and his son C.P.E. Bach made a copy of another composer's work and it's very likely that Bach staged/performed it. During his Leipzig years, Bach did perform quite a few Passions or Passion Oratorios by other composers actually. The style of BWV 246 is, IMHO, already more related to music of C.P.E.'s generation. Several possible composers have been mentioned, among them Johann Melchior Molter, but there are still serious doubts about its authorship.
> 
> IIRC, both C.P.E. Bach and Bach's first biographer Forkel did mention 5 passions composed by J.S. Bach. We know about BWV 244, 245 and the (mostly) lost BWV 247. It is now believed that Bach did compose a Passion during his Weimar period, for the Court of Gotha, in the year 1717. And maybe C.P.E. Bach and Forkel considered the 2 main different versions of BWV 245 (1724/1739/1749 and 1728/1732) as 2 different works. It's also possible that Bach did compose another Passion-Oratorium, maybe on Picander's _Erbauliche Gedanken auf den Grünen Donnerstag und Charfreitag über den Leidenden Jesum_. Some parts of this epic poem were already used for arias in BWV 244, but a few scholars have mentioned the possiblity that Bach might have used more 'stuff' from this poem for another Good Friday work.
> 
> It's still kind of a guessing game though.


I admire your knowledge about these things and thanks for the interesting information.


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## Marc

Christabel said:


> I admire your knowledge about these things and thanks for the interesting information.


You're welcome… got confused myself too though, and, after almost drowning in all those SJP versions, I saw that I made a mistake concerning the years of the most different ones, so I had to edit my post.


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## Guest

Marc said:


> You're welcome… got confused myself too though, and, after almost drowning in all those SJP versions, I saw that I made a mistake concerning the years of the most different ones, so I had to edit my post.


There's never too many SJP's!!! Have you been to Thomaskirche, Leipzig, and seen the great man's grave? I can tell you it's a hugely moving experience; the church itself is quite small but the vibe and the history certainly is the opposite.

What intrigues me is the idea that the Leipzig "council" could tell Bach what to do with his music; what to leave out, to pare down etc. I'm surprised he just didn't riot and go on strike. Who would these people have been and what gave them the musical or ecclesiastical authority to tell JS Bach what to do with his music? (I'm sure I would have told them what to do with their 'council'.)


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## Marc

Christabel said:


> There's never too many SJP's!!! Have you been to Thomaskirche, Leipzig, and seen the great man's grave? I can tell you it's a hugely moving experience; the church itself is quite small but the vibe and the history certainly is the opposite.
> 
> What intrigues me is the idea that the Leipzig "council" could tell Bach what to do with his music; what to leave out, to pare down etc. I'm surprised he just didn't riot and go on strike. Who would these people have been and what gave them the musical or ecclesiastical authority to tell JS Bach what to do with his music? (I'm sure I would have told them what to do with their 'council'.)


I'm afraid that an effort to answer your questions i.c. the city council would take too much off-topic time. 

In short:
First: those were completely different times. 
Second: Bach was nothing but a servant, even in his Leipzig position (you might want to read some of his (rare) preserved submissive letters, it might be stunning for a modern person of our era). 
Third: considering his limited possibilities, I think Bach did the best/most he could, he even protested quite a bit and was known by his superiors as being very stubborn. His well known 'Entwurff', adressed to the Leipzig city council, was a rather subtle yet very straightforward Manifesto against the music-related circumstances he had to work in/with.
In Weimar though, he was even thrown in jail for his behaviour against one of his patrons, before he was finally allowed to move to Köthen. He was arrested by the Duke of Weimar on November 6, 1717, as it stands in the court's notice: "[…] the former concert master and court organist, Bach, arrested in the _LandRichter-Stube_ because of his stubborn testimony and insistent resignation, until 2 December. Then, released from arrest in disgrace, with the resignation accepted by the Court secretary."

I.c. visiting Leipzig: no, I have not been there. I must admit, I'm not much of a traveller. It makes me kinda too restless and nervous. But, thanks to a broad imagination, I travel a lot in my head. 
(I completely understand your emotions though, when standing by his grave/monument.)


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## DavidA

Marc said:


> I'm afraid that an effort to answer your questions i.c. the city council would take too much off-topic time.
> 
> In short:
> First: *those were completely different times.
> Second: Bach was nothing but a servant,* even in his Leipzig position (you might want to read some of his (rare) preserved submissive letters, it might be stunning for a modern person of our era).
> Third: considering his limited possibilities, I think Bach did the best/most he could, he even protested quite a bit and was known by his superiors as being very stubborn. His well known 'Entwurff', adressed to the Leipzig city council, was a rather subtle yet very straightforward Manifesto against the music-related circumstances he had to work in/with.
> In Weimar though, he was even thrown in jail for his behaviour against one of his patrons, before he was finally allowed to move to Köthen. He was arrested by the Duke of Weimar on November 6, 1717, as it stands in the court's notice: "[…] the former concert master and court organist, Bach, arrested in the _LandRichter-Stube_ because of his stubborn testimony and insistent resignation, until 2 December. Then, released from arrest in disgrace, with the resignation accepted by the Court secretary."
> 
> I.c. visiting Leipzig: no, I have not been there. I must admit, I'm not much of a traveller. It makes me kinda too restless and nervous. But, thanks to a broad imagination, I travel a lot in my head.
> (I completely understand your emotions though, when standing by his grave/monument.)


yes we have to remember that musicians were regarded as aid lackeys by those in authority. So a genius like Haydn had to wear servant's livery. When he eventually came to England he was amazed at his own celebrity as he had always regarded himself as a mere servant.


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## Coach G

Favorite _St. John Passion_?:

HIP: Masaaki Suzuki and friends
Un-HIP: Benjamin Britten and friends (also features English translation)


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> yes we have to remember that musicians were regarded as aid lackeys by those in authority. So a genius like Haydn had to wear servant's livery. When he eventually came to England he was amazed at his own celebrity as he had always regarded himself as a mere servant.


All the same, Haydn was fully aware of his own genius and talent - he just didn't overtly display that, mainly for the fact of his being a liveried servant. Modesty and generosity were his great virtues.


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## Josquin13

Here's my overview of St. John Passion recordings:

Over the years, my impression has been that Bach's oldest surviving Passion is one of his most difficult choral works to conduct and perform well. I've heard numerous recordings that didn't strike me as overly successful, even from conductors and ensembles that I normally like & admire in Bach (such as Peter Schreier and Ton Koopman). It seems that Bach's St. John Passion (or St. Johannes-Passion) is a work that conductors must struggle with over a period of years, conducting hundreds of performances, before they begin to fathom and unlock how to best conduct it. Granted, a part of my problem may lie with all the different versions used, considering that Bach made major revisions to the score for each Leipzig performance, and there are at least four different versions of the St. Johannes-Passion--from (1) 1724, (2) 1725, (3) 1729 (a canceled Leipzig performance)... 1732, and (4) 1739...1749. Evidently, Bach could never stop making changes to the work (until possibly towards the end of his life), and to my ears, it sounds less finished or seamlessly put together than his other major choral works, such as the St. Matthew Passion, which Bach made very few changes to. The famous opening movement can even sound like a mess in the hands of a less skilled conductor & ensemble; though that may be attributable to how difficult it is to conduct and perform well, rather than the quality of music, and particularly in performances that use oversized forces, which goes against Bach's original vision for the work.

Among the recordings that I've not heard, I am eager to hear the new recording from Hans-Christophe Rademann, since Rademann has chosen to use Bach's 1749 St. Johannes-Passion, which is Bach's 4th and final version. This 1749 St. Johannes-Passion is arguably the most 'authentic' of the four, since it was composed shortly before Bach's death. Interestingly, it is thought to mostly represent a return to Bach's original, now lost 1724 version, and is closer to the published edition of 1830 (the most commonly performed version), which is a mixture between the 1739 and 1749 versions.

Prior to this, Rademann had made a fascinating "ur-text" recording of the Mass in B minor, so I expect his St. Johannes-Passion will be worth hearing, too. The recording can be listened to in its entirety on You Tube--though I've not heard it yet myself, and am not necessarily recommending it; since for starters, I'm not entirely on board with Rademann's use of a larger choir and ensemble than Bach asks for: 



.

In regards to the best St. John Passion recordings that I've heard over the decades, John Eliot Gardiner's 1986 Archiv period recording--with The English Baroque Soloists & Monteverdi Choir--remains one of the top performances in the catalogue, in my view. I'd even claim that it's one of the 2 or 3 best Bach recordings that Gardiner has made during his long career. Granted, I've not heard Gardiner's recent live broadcast recording from the Kaiserdom, Königslutter, but on first impression, his live Proms performance from around the same time doesn't sound nearly as good as the 1986 Archiv recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd__Ak6OONk):

However, these days I'm less enthusiastic than I used to be about the use of an oversized ensemble in HIP Bach performances, and here Gardiner uses a whopping 30 piece orchestra with a 24 member choir, in addition to his four vocal soloists. Which is what Gardiner does in Bach, since he's long been opposed to the "one to a part" Bach scholarship and performance practices. However, based on the research that I've done, it isn't historically accurate or justifiable for a period conductor to use more than 16 singers in a Bach choir, nor a 30-piece orchestra in the Passion, either. There are contemporary sources that strongly indicate that a choir of 16 singers was generally the maximum number of singers used in Bach's lifetime, and even 16 was quite rare for the stingy budgets of Lutheran churches (& for most any German Baroque choral work of the period): where the norm was usually 4 to 8 singers, in regards to works composed for a single four part choir, as it was in the Renaissance, and according to the practices of Bach's idol, Buxtehude, & Telemann, whose choral works we know were both performed one-voice-per-part. Besides, Bach specifically scored his St. Johannes-Passion for a small, intimate chamber ensemble (of about 13 solo instruments), with a four-part choir, and four vocal soloists (who could also sing the four choir parts as well, if need be). So that is the size of the ensemble that Bach composed and specifically tailored his contrapuntal writing to in his St. John Passion. Which is in contrast to the larger vocal and instrumental ensembles that Bach requires for parts of his St. Matthew Passion, Mass in B minor, and one enticing "St. Michael" cantata fragment--of disputed authenticity, where he uncharacteristically wrote for a double choir (while all the rest of his 100s of Cantatas were composed for a single 4-part choir).

Nevertheless, the virtuosity of the Monteverdi Choir on Gardiner's 1986 Archiv recording is stunning, & you won't likely hear another oversized sized Bach choir sing the St. John Passion better. As a result, their size never becomes a hindrance or issue: which is rare among oversized choir recordings--where problems usually abound, since massive choirs are often too slow & cumbersome and overly homogenous, and therefore too hazy sounding for the intricacy of Bach's complex contrapuntal writing (& particularly in a large cavernous church). So, if you're open to hearing a stunningly virtuosic, but disproportionately sized choir & over-sized instrumental ensemble perform Bach's St. Johannes-Passion, along with a first rate line up of solo singers, & conducting that shows Gardiner at a high peak during his early Archiv years, then I'd strongly recommend this recording as one of the best in the catalogue:





https://www.amazon.com/Bach-John-Pa...r+bach+st.+john&qid=1586480567&s=music&sr=1-1.

Among other period recordings that employ overly large forces, Gardiner's chief competition comes from Ton Koopman's Erato recording of 1993, with the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, as well as Philippe Herreweghe's three recordings (and now possibly Rademann). However, Koopman's 1993 performance isn't nearly as virtuosic or as insightful as Gardiner's. It's good, but not as interesting: 



. In addition, my first impression of Koopman's latest live 2010 performance with the Bavarian Radio S.O. (played on modern instruments)--via You Tube, is that he's radically changed his view of the work from his earlier Erato recording, and now opts for quicker and more impulsive tempi, and the results sound a lot more engaging and exciting--after all, the SJP is an intensely dramatic work: 



.

As for Philippe Herreweghe's first St. John Passion recording, which was made for Harmonia Mundi in 1987, I don't see it as a contender, due to Herreweghe's tendency towards 'feminine' endings and soft pastel like effects in Bach. Herreweghe's conducting isn't nearly as incisive or dynamic enough in his 1987 St. John Passion to recommend this recording over Gardiner's: 



. He also has a tendency to drag the music in places, IMO, where it can all sound more like Faure's Requiem than Bach. Which is frustrating, since Herreweghe has chosen an excellent line up of singers (as usual). In contrast, when Herreweghe does take a more dynamic, incisive approach to Bach, he can produce some very fine Bach performances--such as his Magnificat BWV 243 for Harmonia Mundi, which is one of the best in the catalogue, IMO: 



.

With that said, I've not heard Herreweghe's 2nd & 3rd versions of the St. John Passion, and after listening to bits and pieces of them on You Tube, my initial impression is that Hereweghe's view of the Passion has changed and evolved considerably since 1987, & for the better. Interestingly, like Koopman, Herreweghe has quickened his tempi and become more dramatic and lively & more rhythmically alert, and the music making sounds a lot more urgent now, and has greater piquancy: which is important towards bringing out the sharper sense of anguish within the Passion. Herreweghe has also, I believe, reduced the size of his choir to 16. So, if Herreweghe's 3rd recording does indeed represent his most evolved thoughts on Bach's score to date, then it could well be one of the top picks. However, judging from the samples, his choir doesn't sound as well drilled and synchronized as the Monteverdi Choir.

One big negative for me in regards to Herreweghe's 2nd recording from 2002 is that he uses Bach's 1725 version of the score, where the famous opening movement "Herr! Unser Herrscher" of the original 1724 version was temporarily discarded by Bach: 



. Apparently, in 1725 Bach had second thoughts about the opening movement from his first version. My guess is that he found it problematic, likely after having heard it poorly performed in Leipzig, and maybe mistakenly decided that the fault was partly his. Plus, he was trying to make an important strong first impression in Leipzig, after having just arrived there. Therefore, I'd personally rule out Herreweghe's 2nd recording for that reason, since I like the original opening movement--at least when it's performed well, and think it belongs in the Passion; as did Bach eventually, since he later changed his mind again, and put the movement back in. So why exclude it?

Here's a YT clip shot from a recent rehearsal by Herreweghe for his projected tour of the SJP in 2020 (before COVID-19 shut the tour down), and right away, I think people will hear how Herreweghe's view of the music has significantly changed and evolved since 1987: 



https://www.amazon.com/Johannes-Pas.../ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

By the way, Herreweghe's 3rd SJP recording has recently won an Editor's choice monthly plaudit from Gramophone Magazine in March, 2020, and was the BBC Record Review's "Record of the Week" for February 22d, 2020" (EDIT: it has also now received a monthly plaudit in the May issue of BBC Music Magazine). Most fortunately, he's not using the 1725 version this time: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8718185--bach-johannes-passion-bwv-245

I've not heard Masaaki Suzuki's recent recording with the Bach Collegium Japan, either, but unlike Herreweghe, Koopman, and Gardiner, I don't usually place Suzuki in the oversized forces camp, since he normally uses a more appropriately HIP sized vocal ensemble than the other three. Yet, I wouldn't put him in the OVPP crowd, either. I have heard Suziki's earlier St. John Passion for BIS, and while it's a good recording, I don't think it's competitive with Gardiner's 1986 recording. Although Suzuki is certainly a more seasoned, experienced Bach conductor today than he was back then--after having recorded all of the Cantatas, etc.--so this 2nd recording likely represents an improvement.

Nor have I heard Peter Neumann's recording on MDG Gold either, which the International Record Review liked (a publication that I used to trust when it was in print); although I have read some negative comments about Neumann's 4 soloists: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7956659--bach-j-s-st-john-passion-bwv245. Apart from Herreweghe 2, Neumann is the only other conductor on record to use Bach's second version from 1725, so his performance doesn't begin with the original 1724 opening movement, either, and again, I see that as a negative--especially for someone coming to this work for the first time, or if it is to be your only SJP recording. Although, of course, Bach's more obsessive fans will naturally want to hear this 1725 version, & specifically for those differences:

Among the ensembles that perform the Passion 'one to a part', I've most liked Philippe Pierlot's recording with the Ricercar Consort (basically over Andrew Parrott's recording), but I've not heard (1) John Butt's Dunedin Consort OVPP recording on Linn, nor (2) Sigiswald Kuijken's 1987 (OVPP?--maybe not) recording on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi with La Petite Bande (with its excellent line up of singers--Prégardien, van der Kamp, Schlick, Jacobs, van der Meel, and van Egmond), or (3) Richard Egarr's 2014 OVPP recording with the Academy of Ancient Music. Of these, I'd most like to hear the Dunedin recording, based on the excellent reviews that it has received, & because I thought their Mass in B minor was first rate: https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Passio-...hannes+passion&qid=1586478338&s=music&sr=1-11










Nor have I heard the 2004 recording from Jos van Veldhoven and the Netherlands Bach Society on Channel Classics (two hybrid SACDs), although I did like Veldhoven's Mass in B minor on Channel Classics very much. Interestingly, for his Mass in B minor recording, Veldhoven chose to alternate a larger sized choir with an OVPP choir, as he saw fit, and justified his decision on purely "aesthetic grounds". I'm not sure whether Velhoven does the same thing on his St. John recording, but he does appear to be doing so on the 2014 St. John concert clip below, so he very likely did. Of further interest, Veldhoven uses musicologist Dr. Pieter Dirksen's reconstruction of the lost 1724 score, where Dirksen attempted to draw upon various sources in order to present Bach's original 1724 conception of the work (see the MusicWeb review below). As noted, the following YT link is to a live Veldhoven performance of the St. John Passion, which on first impression I like a lot: 




http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Mar05/bach_johnpassion_CCSSA22005.htm

There's also a reduced chamber version of the St. Johannes Passion from Benoit Haller and La Chapelle Rhénane that is quite interesting. Haller chooses to use only 8 singers for his 4 part Bach choir & soloists, plus a separate Evangelist, and a small instrumental ensemble of 19 musicians. In addition, he has created his own performing edition by drawing upon all of Bach's different versions--so this is a unique performance: 



.

Konrad Junghänel & his Cantus Colln ensemble have likewise chosen to use a small chamber ensemble, but take the pursuit of authenticity even further than Haller. Here Junghänel uses the absolute bare minimum of singers and instrumentalists--a total of 8 singers for his 4 part Bach choir and 4 soloists, including the Evangelist, and a 12 musician ensemble: that is, six strings, five winds, and an organ (and 1 conductor). Interestingly, like Rademann, Junghänel has opted to use Bach's fourth and last 1749 version. However, just as I was about to declare this performance to be the most authentically HIP in the catalogue--according to Bach's final vision of the Passion, I've just now read that there is a part in the score that Bach labeled 'cembalo' (or harpsichord) and that Junghänel uses a organ instead; while Haller appropriately uses a harpsichord. I don't know if that's a small matter or not, since I've not heard the recording & I don't know how extensive or audible Bach's "cembalo" part is (?). The following link is to a review from Fanfare magazine: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Hans-Jörg-Memmet/Performer/253936-2






Nor have I heard the recordings by Rene Jacobs, Marc Minkowski, & Frans Bruggen.


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## wkasimer

Josquin13 said:


> Nor have I heard the recordings by Rene Jacobs, Marc Minkowski, & Frans Bruggen.


How about Kenneth Slowik's?:


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## Josquin13

No, I've not heard Kenneth Slowik's Smithsonian recording. I didn't know that Slowik, whose cello playing I've liked, conducted. Is it a favorite of yours?


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## wkasimer

Josquin13 said:


> No, I've not heard Kenneth Slowik's Smithsonian recording. I didn't know that Slowik, whose cello playing I've liked, conducted. Is it a favorite of yours?


Definitely. Beautifully sung and expertly conducted. I normally don't care for recordings where the soloists also sing the choral parts, but this one is the exception.


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## Josquin13

Yes, the soloists look good--I like Jeffrey Thomas and Julianne Baird in Baroque music (& especially Baird in Mozart lieder with Colin Tilney playing a fortepiano). I see it's about a 11 or 12 member choir, which isn't a small Bach choir, but more along the lines of what Suzuki often employs (while Haller & Junghänel use a smaller & more authentic choir, as noted). So, it's really a non-issue that the 4 soloists sing within the chorus, as I see it.

I'm tempted... thanks for bringing the recording to my attention.

In regards to choir size, as I see it, the tradition that Bach grew out of or inherited from the Renaissance was basically to write according to the size of the ensemble that the composer expected to use in performance. In other words, if a Renaissance composer wrote works specifically for a large ensemble and/or choir, they didn't compose with the same kind of polyphonic complexity as they would for a work they expected to be sung by only 4 or 5 singers (or one or two musicians on a part). They knew the demands & requirements would be different, and that a massive choir wouldn't to be able to perform a complex choral work as quickly and clearly, polyphonically. So instead they wrote more simply & with considerable less complexity in their large choral works, and obviously wrote with much thicker vocal textures in mind. Not surprisingly, these large choral works are almost always performed at a slower pace, as well.

A good example of this Renaissance practice is the following CD of massive choral works sung by the Huelgas Ensemble, entitled "Utopia Triumphans": 



. Here the music never goes especially fast, but is mostly slow and meditative, and hypnotically so. As mentioned, the composers of these large choral works knew that such a huge ensemble wouldn't be able to be as lithe and nimble as a smaller choir, so they composed their scores with much different expectations and demands in mind.

In my view, these same unspoken Renaissance 'rules' would have been thoroughly understood and embraced by J.S. Bach, as well, & especially when you consider that he did take up and continue certain Renaissance practices and traditions in his music--such as composing for a 4-8 person choir, or one or two singers to a part (& especially in his 100s of cantatas). However, even if Bach had wished that he'd had more singers and instrumentalists available to him at St. Thomas (and elsewhere) for his largest choral works--which he'd written for a double choir (in parts), the incredible complexity and sheer intricacy of his contrapuntal writing strongly argues that he didn't normally compose the vast majority of his choral works to suit a giant sized ensemble & choir, but rather he specifically tailored them to a small & even very small ensemble & choir. Of course, this was already common practice in Dresden, where Bach had hoped to gain a post (so that he could get out of Leipzig).

I think this is of particular importance in relation to the St. John Passion because it is the smallest and most intimate of Bach's major choral works. And therefore, apart from his cantatas & Magnificats, it is the least likely of Bach's major choral music to work successfully when performed by a gigantic choir and instrumental ensemble since such an ensemble would be significantly larger than what Bach had envisioned for his score (basically, 12 instrumentalists & 8 singers). Indeed, the choral & orchestral balances that Bach had to have carefully worked out in his mind for the St. John Passion would be even more out of whack when performed by a very large ensemble, & in some cases, way off, in relation to the complexity of his contrapuntal writing.


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## Marc

wkasimer said:


> Definitely. Beautifully sung and expertly conducted. I normally don't care for recordings where the soloists also sing the choral parts, but this one is the exception.


+1.
A very worthwhile and convincing performance.


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## Marc

Josquin13 said:


> Here's my overview of St. John Passion recordings:
> 
> Over the years, my impression has been that Bach's oldest surviving Passion is one of his most difficult choral works to conduct and perform well. I've heard numerous recordings that didn't strike me as overly successful, even from conductors and ensembles that I normally like & admire in Bach (such as Peter Schreier and Ton Koopman). It seems that Bach's St. John Passion (or St. Johannes-Passion) is a work that conductors must struggle with over a period of years, conducting hundreds of performances, before they begin to fathom and unlock how to best conduct it. Granted, a part of my problem may lie with all the different versions used, considering that Bach made major revisions to the score for each Leipzig performance, and there are at least four different versions of the St. Johannes-Passion--from (1) 1724, (2) 1725, (3) 1729 (a canceled Leipzig performance)... 1732, and (4) 1739...1749.


The canceled performance was probably in 1728. In 1729 Bach prepared and performed the SMP in the Thomaskirche, according to most researchers and scholars.



Josquin13 said:


> […]
> One big negative for me in regards to Herreweghe's 2nd recording from 2002 is that he uses Bach's 1725 version of the score, where the famous opening movement "Herr! Unser Herrscher" of the original 1724 version was temporarily discarded by Bach:
> 
> 
> 
> . Apparently, in 1725 Bach had second thoughts about the opening movement from his first version. My guess is that he found it problematic, likely after having heard it poorly performed in Leipzig, and maybe mistakenly decided that the fault was partly his. Plus, he was trying to make an important strong first impression in Leipzig, after having just arrived there. Therefore, I'd personally rule out Herreweghe's 2nd recording for that reason, since I like the original opening movement--at least when it's performed well, and think it belongs in the Passion; as did Bach eventually, since he later changed his mind again, and put the movement back in. So why exclude it? […]


It's more likely that Bach changed the 1725 performance into a more chorale-based version, to make it fit into his 2nd church cantata year volume, where almost every cantata started with a chorale-based opening choir, too.

And the original opening choir of this passion got not really 'excluded' in this Herreweghe recording, because he simply recorded only the complete 1725 version of the work. Which means also without (for instance) "Betrachte, meine Seel'" and with different arias on various places. Herreweghe deliberately choose to perform the 1725 version, since it is the only other completely delivered version of the SJP (apart from the 1749 version). And he had already recorded the 1724/1739/1749 Neue Bach Ausgabe version in his first recording. So, with that in mind, his 2nd recording of BWV is complete, imho, with no 'exclusions'.



Josquin13 said:


> […]
> Nor have I heard Peter Neumann's recording on MDG Gold either, which the International Record Review liked (a publication that I used to trust when it was in print); although I have read some negative comments about Neumann's 4 soloists: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7956659--bach-j-s-st-john-passion-bwv245. Apart from Herreweghe 2, Neumann is the only other conductor on record to use Bach's second version from 1725, so his performance doesn't begin with the original 1724 opening movement, either, and again, I see that as a negative--especially for someone coming to this work for the first time, or if it is to be your only SJP recording. Although, of course, Bach's more obsessive fans will naturally want to hear this 1725 version, & specifically for those differences:
> […]


Even though I am (more or less) an 'obsessive'  fan of Bach, I think that the 1725 is a very complete work, and the differences with the better known version(s) are not only interesting for the 'obsessive' fans. It offers 3 great other arias and a different opening and ending. I prefer the better know version of 1724/1739/1749 too, but I think it's most definitely worthwhile to check out the 1725 version.

Btw, I did not do an extensive research to all recordings of 1725, but there are quite a few more than just Herreweghe 2 and Neumann. For instance: Cleobury 1996 (on DVD), Karl Rathgeber, Simon Carrington and Nico van der Meel also recorded this version. And then there's the rather weird choice of Benoît Haller (who you also mentioned), who recorded the 1725 version but with "Herr, unser Herrscher" as opening choir… a combination that Bach himself never performed. The recordings ends, according to the booklet, with the 1725 chorale arrangement closure "Christe, du Lamm Gottes"... but after about 20 seconds suddenly the 1724/1749 closure "Ach Gott, laß dein lieb Engelein" is heard. Well, Haller obviously had his fun.


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## Guest

Is it possible to love Bach more every day? This is the way it is for me. Nearly a decade ago spouse and myself went to live in Vienna for a year and when I told a (now deceased) friend he said, "Be sure to say hello to Schubert and tell him I love him more with each passing day". I did just that.


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## Marc

Christabel said:


> Is it possible to love Bach more every day? This is the way it is for me. Nearly a decade ago spouse and myself went to live in Vienna for a year and when I told a (now deceased) friend he said, "Be sure to say hello to Schubert and tell him I love him more with each passing day". I did just that.


That's a deep question, Christabel. 

I could not really answer, because I don't know how to measure Love. I do know though that, in this particular case, it is everlasting.

(The Johannes-Passion being a strong example of that, ever since I first heard the opening chorus - and the rest - for the first time at the age of 14... I think it was.)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Christabel said:


> Is it possible to love Bach more every day?


Absolutely yes. I'm convinced that one could listen to nothing but Bach for all of one's life and never stop discovering new joys every time. I'm painstakingly working my way through the cantatas (chronologically according to BWV number) and every one has at least one jaw-dropping feature.

In the St. John, it's this little arioso that destroys me every time:


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## Guest

I'll say it again; German is the greatest language to set to music, and Bach is the greatest composer of music for that language. He has some stiff competition including, but not limited to, Schubert.

That's a wonderful arioso, Allegro Con Brio (I can't believe I just wrote that sentence!).


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## aioriacont

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Absolutely yes. I'm convinced that one could listen to nothing but Bach for all of one's life and never stop discovering new joys every time. I'm painstakingly working my way through the cantatas (chronologically according to BWV number) and every one has at least one jaw-dropping feature.


I agree with that. 
Actually, Bach and Schubert are the only composers who I was able to love more and more the most I listened to. That didn't happen even with my favorite bands, or jazz musicians, which are amazing too.


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## Josquin13

Thanks for your interesting thoughts and comments on my above post, Marc (& I'm sorry it's taken me several days to respond).

Marc writes, "Btw, I did not do an extensive research to all recordings of 1725, but there are quite a few more than just Herreweghe 2 and Neumann. For instance: Cleobury 1996 (on DVD), Karl Rathgeber, Simon Carrington and Nico van der Meel also recorded this version."

Apart from Stephen Cleobury, the other conductors that you mention are new to me. It looks like my information was wrong (or at least dated). I had read a review of Peter Neumann's MDG recording where the critic claimed that Neumann and Herreweghe were the only two conductors to record the 1725 version. & I suppose that may have been almost true back in that late 1990s or early 2000s when Neumann's recording came out, with the exception of Cleobury's DVD that you mention. But I should have realized that there has been an unprecedented number of St. John Passion recordings issued over the past 10 to 15 years--including some 2nd time arounds by notable period conductors such as Bruggen, Koopman, & Kuijken. I thought I'd mentioned most of the better reviewed recordings in my post, but in looking over the recent St. John discography (at your prompting), I see that I missed a whole bunch. I admit it's been difficult keeping up with all the new St. John recordings released over the past decade or so. Which makes me wonder if the Passion has become the single most recorded work by Bach in the 2000s? Clearly, it seems to have gained in popularity. So maybe it is possible to "love Bach's music more every day", & collectively so, or at least certain works of his.

I ended up ordering the Kenneth Slowik recording that wkasimer recommended, and am looking forward to hearing it.

Another St. John Passion that I noticed I'd not heard but would imagine is very good is Monica Huggett's recording in Oregon with the Portland Baroque Orchestra: https://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-saint-john-passion-mw0002266694. Has anyone heard this recording & liked it? Evidently, they perform a reconstruction of the 1724 version, and the performance is intimately scaled. Ever since I heard Huggett's remarkably fine 4 Orchestral Suites ("for a Young Prince")--which stand out in a crowded field--I've seen her as a first class Bach conductor: 



. But I don't know how good she'd be in choral music? since I don't think she has much experience conducting choral works (& this is after all an extremely difficult work to conduct well). I see Huggett's recording is posted on her You Tube web page, where it can be heard for free, if you're willing to put up with Google's relentless advertisements (which IMO have all but destroyed You Tube as venue to listen to music, as there are way too many commerical interruptions now). I'm listening to it right now and Huggett handles the difficult opening movement masterfully!: 




I also see that Diego Fasolis has recorded the St. John Passion, too, & I've liked him very much in a number of recordings of Baroque music lately, especially in the choral music of Vivaldi & Handel.

But most of all, I'd like to hear the conductor that I consider to be the most exceptional Bach conductor today, Eric Milnes, record the St. John Passion (along with the Mass in B minor, etc.). I expect a recording from Milnes & Montreal Baroque would virtually sweep the board. However, presently Milnes has his hands full recording the first OVPP cycle of Bach's complete cantatas in Montreal--a project that is going slowly because he's taking the time to thoroughly rehearse each cantata before he records them (unlike many of the more facile conductors today):


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## Marc

Josquin13 said:


> Thanks for your interesting thoughts and comments on my above post, Marc (& I'm sorry it's taken me several days to respond).
> 
> Marc writes, "Btw, I did not do an extensive research to all recordings of 1725, but there are quite a few more than just Herreweghe 2 and Neumann. For instance: Cleobury 1996 (on DVD), Karl Rathgeber, Simon Carrington and Nico van der Meel also recorded this version."
> 
> Apart from Stephen Cleobury, the other conductors that you mention are new to me. It looks like my information was wrong (or at least dated). I had read a review of Peter Neumann's MDG recording where the critic claimed that Neumann and Herreweghe were the only two conductors to record the 1725 version. & I suppose that may have been almost true back in that late 1990s or early 2000s when Neumann's recording came out, with the exception of Cleobury's DVD that you mention. But I should have realized that there has been an unprecedented number of St. John Passion recordings issued over the past 10 to 15 years--including some 2nd time arounds by notable period conductors such as Bruggen, Koopman, & Kuijken. I thought I'd mentioned most of the better reviewed recordings in my post, but in looking over the recent St. John discography (at your prompting), I see that I missed a whole bunch. I admit it's been difficult keeping up with all the new St. John recordings released over the past decade or so. Which makes me wonder if the Passion has become the single most recorded work by Bach in the 2000s? Clearly, it seems to have gained in popularity. So maybe it is possible to "love Bach's music more every day", & collectively so, or at least certain works of his.
> 
> I ended up ordering the Kenneth Slowik recording that wkasimer recommended, and am looking forward to hearing it.
> 
> Another St. John Passion that I noticed I'd not heard but would imagine is very good is Monica Huggett's recording in Oregon with the Portland Baroque Orchestra: https://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-saint-john-passion-mw0002266694. Has anyone heard this recording & liked it? Evidently, they perform a reconstruction of the 1724 version, and the performance is intimately scaled. Ever since I heard Huggett's remarkably fine 4 Orchestral Suites ("for a Young Prince")--which stand out in a crowded field--I've seen her as a first class Bach conductor:
> 
> 
> 
> . But I don't know how good she'd be in choral music? since I don't think she has much experience conducting choral works (& this is after all an extremely difficult work to conduct well). I see Huggett's recording is posted on her You Tube web page, where it can be heard for free, if you're willing to put up with Google's relentless advertisements (which IMO have all but destroyed You Tube as venue to listen to music, as there are way too many commerical interruptions now). I'm listening to it right now and Huggett handles the difficult opening movement masterfully!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also see that Diego Fasolis has recorded the St. John Passion, too, & I've liked him very much in a number of recordings of Baroque music lately, especially in the choral music of Vivaldi & Handel.
> 
> But most of all, I'd like to hear the conductor that I consider to be the most exceptional Bach conductor today, Eric Milnes, record the St. John Passion (along with the Mass in B minor, etc.). I expect a recording from Milnes & Montreal Baroque would virtually sweep the board. However, presently Milnes has his hands full recording the first OVPP cycle of Bach's complete cantatas in Montreal--a project that is going slowly because he's taking the time to thoroughly rehearse each cantata before he records them (unlike many of the more facile conductors today):


I understand. Indeed, the popularity of BWV 245 has grown in the last 2 decades. And, I think, in quite some cases, information in the booklets like "this is the very first recording of version X" or "this is only the 3rd recording..." is nothing but advertising.
I do have the Slowik recording myself, and I agree with others that it's a very fine one.
I have listened to Huggett only once and remember appreciating it quite a lot, but I would have to listen to it again to check my memories.
I.c. Fasolis: I remember considering him just too ruggid and almost harsh in this music, so I never categorized it among my personal favourites.
And, last but not least: I share your positive reception of Eric Milnes. I only have a few of his cantata volumes (they are/were not so easy to grab in my home country) and I like them a lot. 
For a worthwhile OVPP-recording of the Johannes-Passion, I would recommend Sigiswald Kuijken's 2nd recording, but I admit I still have to check out Butt. Kuijken's first recording (1989) was with a larger choir, and that one was much slower than his (2nd) OVPP recording, but somehow I have always been very fond of it. Although it was slow, it was also very expressive, in a 'Leonhardt' kind of way.

By the way, of the conductors of the 1725 version that were unknown to you… I guess that at least one of them is known to you as a singer/tenor in Bach:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Meel-Nico-van-der.htm

He's mainly known as Evangelist (and a very good one imho), but he also sings the arias on the afore mentioned first recording of Kuijken.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

I listened to the Passion on Spotify and out of the few versions I listened to, I prefer this live recording by the Frauenkirche Dresden from 2018.






I have attached my favorite track from the St. John's Passion above. The lyrics and translation are as follows:

Zerfließe, mein Herze, in Fluten der Zähren
Dem Höchsten zu Ehren!
Erzähle der Welt und dem Himmel die Not:
Dein Jesus ist tot!

Dissolve, my heart, in floods of tears
to honour the Almighty!
Tell the world and heaven your distress:
your Jesus is dead!

Love the vocal part and the instrumentation of this number. Think the oboe da caccia does it for me.


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## Guest002

Christabel said:


> There's never too many SJP's!!! Have you been to Thomaskirche, Leipzig, and seen the great man's grave? I can tell you it's a hugely moving experience; the church itself is quite small but the vibe and the history certainly is the opposite.


I took the opportunity to nip up to the pulpit from which Luther preached! Not sure if you're allowed or not, but the rope was down, so...

Unfortunately, I found Bach almost missing from Leipzig. The interior of the Nicolaikirche, stunning as it is, is not what he would have been familiar with; even the interior of St. Thomas' is not as it would have been in his day. The school he taught at was demolished. And so on.

And as for the grave... well, it's at least reasonably doubtful that Bach's bones are in it, sad to say. I made sure to touch it, nevertheless, just in case!

I was a little disappointed in Leipzig from the perspective of getting in touch with Bach. Though the Völkerschlachtdenkmal is utterly extraordinary and made up for the disappointment 

I found Eisenach more Bach-resonant: the font he was baptised in is still there, for example.


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## Marc

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> I listened to the Passion on Spotify and out of the few versions I listened to, I prefer this live recording by the Frauenkirche Dresden from 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have attached my favorite track from the St. John's Passion above. The lyrics and translation are as follows:
> 
> Zerfließe, mein Herze, in Fluten der Zähren
> Dem Höchsten zu Ehren!
> Erzähle der Welt und dem Himmel die Not:
> Dein Jesus ist tot!
> 
> Dissolve, my heart, in floods of tears
> to honour the Almighty!
> Tell the world and heaven your distress:
> your Jesus is dead!
> 
> Love the vocal part and the instrumentation of this number. Think the oboe da caccia does it for me.


Once upon a time, many many years ago, a lady friend visited my house, checked out my cd collection and said: "please play me your favourite piece of music."

So I grabbed Gardiner's SJP, and selected this aria (sung by Nancy Argenta).
Let's just say that it did not leave my visitor unmoved.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

Marc said:


> Once upon a time, many many years ago, a lady friend visited my house, checked out my cd collection and said: "please play me your favourite piece of music."
> 
> So I grabbed Gardiner's SJP, and selected this aria (sung by Nancy Argenta).
> Let's just say that it did not leave my visitor unmoved.


It really is an incredibly powerful, dramatic, deep aria from the St. John's Passion. Something about the introduction (perhaps the orchestration and the dark undertones from what I think is from the lower strings and bassoons) just draws you into the aria. I think if you go into listening to it with a completely open mind like your lady friend, I would find it hard for anyone to not be unmoved by it regardless of the lyrics. Will give the Gardiner recording another look!


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## starthrower

Jochum on Philips. As a bonus the CD includes a lengthy excerpt from a favorite cantata, BWV 140.


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## Marc

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> It really is an incredibly powerful, dramatic, deep aria from the St. John's Passion. Something about the introduction (perhaps the orchestration and the dark undertones from what I think is from the lower strings and bassoons) just draws you into the aria. I think if you go into listening to it with a completely open mind like your lady friend, I would find it hard for anyone to not be unmoved by it regardless of the lyrics. Will give the Gardiner recording another look!


IIRC (not able to check it right now), Gardiner uses a gamba or cello, instead of a bassoon. I think those choices are ad libitum. Of course, the sound of the traverse flute and oboe da caccia mingle beautifully with a bassoon, but the string continuo works very good as well. I.c. the lyrics: if one forgets about the religious context, then this aria is still a breathtakingly beautiful mourning song about the loss of a dear friend. Some sopranos sing it in a more intense way than Argenta, but her voice is so lovely in this one, almost unearthly beautiful, and it works on my inner emotions. (As it apparently also did on my lady friend's...)


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