# Which composers have been considered world's best during their lifetime?



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Which composers enjoyed the reputations of world's best? (Even if they weren't the only ones claimed to be such in their time)

Haendel ?
Haydn ?
Mozart - definitely
Beethoven - definitely
Wagner - by many
Stravinsky - by many

Who else?
Brahms? Monteverdi?

I recall reading that around World War I the Viennese voted that the best Austrian composer alive was... a tie between Schoenberg and the young Korngold. I wonder whether they also considered Austrian music to be superior to foreign music. If that were the case, these two would also count.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Guillaume de Machaut


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seems like you've answered your own question.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2019)

It seems to me that all of the "great" composers were considered leading composers during their lifetimes, although many of their rivals have dropped away as time has past.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Seems like you've answered your own question.


I hoped for some interesting quotes or anecdotes.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A tiny problem: Let’s take Beethoven. Informed opinion in Vienna would probably have placed him at the top of the pile from 1802 or so onwards. But Vienna at that time was a pretty small place by modern standards, maybe 200 thousand people. Where I live, it might get three or four freeway off-ramps.

But in France (for instance) Beethoven was less known and less respected. And Italy was so uninterested that it waited until 1860 for its first performance of the Eroica.

It goes without saying that in Korea, Japan, and a hundred other countries Beethoven was totally unknown and local favorites were much preferred.

So what do we mean by “world’s best”? And considered that by whom?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

KenOC said:


> A tiny problem: Let's take Beethoven. Informed opinion in Vienna would probably have placed him at the top of the pile from 1802 or so onwards. But Vienna at that time was a pretty small place by modern standards, maybe 200 thousand people. Where I live, it might get three or four freeway off-ramps.
> 
> But in France (for instance) Beethoven was less known and less respected. And Italy was so uninterested that it waited until 1860 for its first performance of the Eroica.
> 
> ...


Whomever. I'm just looking for statements of this sort.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Fabulin said:


> Which composers enjoyed the reputations of world's best? (Even if they weren't the only ones claimed to be such in their time)
> 
> Haendel ?
> Haydn ?
> ...


Did Mozart really enjoy the reputation of worlds best? Haydn considered him so - and he had a following - and he no doubt believed he was the best composer in europe - but since other composers had more success - I dont think he quite enjoyed the reputation he deserved.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

This "sun of composers" diagram produced by Augustus Kollmann in 1799 gives one perspective. Bach is in the centre, meaning the greatest. Of the living composers, Haydn is considered best. But KenOC's point about Beethoven is valid here too - it's obviously a Germanic worldview.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> This "sun of composers" diagram produced by Augustus Kollmann in 1799 gives one perspective. Bach is in the centre, meaning the greatest. Of the living composers, Haydn is considered best. But KenOC's point about Beethoven is valid here too - it's obviously a Germanic worldview.
> 
> View attachment 126387


This most certainly was not the attitude toward Bach in his lifetime. His son was more famous and highly praised.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Georg Philipp Teleman was considered one of the best in the baroque. Music critic and composer Johan Mattheson's famous quote goes:
"Lully is celebrated; Corelli enjoys praise; Telemann alone towers way above"


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Salieri, no doubt. Beloved by kings and the people of central europe.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Baron Scarpia said:


> It seems to me that all of the "great" composers were considered leading composers during their lifetimes, although many of their rivals have dropped away as time has past.


That is a good point. For instance, Glazunov, who, by the turn of the 20th Century, was the most performed of Russian composers, and held at a very high esteem, having earned doctorates from both Cambridge and Oxford. That changed when, after WWI, fashion began to be used when evaluating the intrinsic value of the works of composers much celebrated during their heydays (people like Franck, Bax, Myaskovsky, the list goes on).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

*Which composers have been considered world's best during their lifetime?*

You mean back before the internet, and before the post-modern era when composers and other historical figures were actually _respected? _When people's individual opinions weren't taken as seriously by the people spouting them?

I'll have to do some research into that one...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Seems like you've answered your own question.


What composer would you choose, Woodduck? Gee, I haven't got a _clue!_


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Moritz Moszkowski was held the same way Rachmaninov is now.

Joseph Raff had Brahms status.

Muzio Clementi was admired by many, including Beethoven.

Luigi Cherubini was considered to Beethoven's greatest contemporary.

All of these composers mentioned are no long much in the standard repertoire.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

chu42 said:


> Moritz Moszkowski was held the same way Rachmaninov is now.
> 
> Joseph Raff had Brahms status.
> 
> ...


In Clementi's case that's a real shame. His piano sonatas are really quite delightful to listen to. He was a genuine piano pioneer.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> *When people's individual opinions weren't taken as seriously by the people spouting them?*


What do you mean by that?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> What composer would you choose, Woodduck? Gee, I haven't got a _clue!_


Five posts from you, in one single day, in different threads, all referring to me!

This is creepy. Is there a sixth waiting in ambush somewhere? Am I being stalked? Do I need to get a restraining order?

I wouldn't be able to answer the OP's question with confidence, so I choose not to contribute.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2019)

KenOC said:


> A tiny problem: Let's take Beethoven. Informed opinion in Vienna would probably have placed him at the top of the pile from 1802 or so onwards. But Vienna at that time was a pretty small place by modern standards, maybe 200 thousand people. Where I live, it might get three or four freeway off-ramps.
> 
> But in France (for instance) Beethoven was less known and less respected. And Italy was so uninterested that it waited until 1860 for its first performance of the Eroica.
> 
> ...


Granted, there wasn't a global marketplace in those days and there is no clear definition of the absolute "best," then or now. But I don't think you will find many composers who are regarded today as "masters" who weren't recognized as top tier during their lifetimes within their geographical/cultural sphere of activity.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Granted, there wasn't a global marketplace in those days and there is no clear definition of the absolute "best," then or now. But I don't think you will find many composers who are regarded today as "masters" who weren't recognized as top tier during their lifetimes within their geographical/cultural sphere of activity.


Given those qualifications, I think I can be dragged, kicking and screaming, into agreement with you!


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

classical yorkist said:


> In Clementi's case that's a real shame. His piano sonatas are really quite delightful to listen to. He was a genuine piano pioneer.


So was Hummel and CPE Bach; while these two aren't exactly forgotten they are more remembered for works outside of piano repertoire and they were much more popular when they were alive rather than today.

When Mozart said "Bach is the father and we are the children", he was referring to CPE rather than Johann Sebastien!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I think that can be said of Ockeghem and Josquin.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> Which composers enjoyed the reputations of world's best? (Even if they weren't the only ones claimed to be such in their time)
> 
> Haendel ?
> Haydn ?
> ...


Josquin des Prez


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Rossini (1792-1868) who did not write much music in his old age was considered the greatest in the world early … during the period of Beethoven (1770-1827.) Even Franz Krommer (1759-1831) was for a time during the period considered one of Europe's greatest composers. History has shown otherwise on both counts.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

What about the ones considered "showmen" such as Liszt or Paganini. I wouldn't have considered these two but people would have because they were flamboyant and that kept less serious music lovers entertained!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Judith said:


> What about the ones considered "showmen" such as Liszt or Paganini. I wouldn't have considered these two but people would have because they were flamboyant and that kept less serious music lovers entertained!


Like Sweelinck. From Egarr's essay



> In 1594 a certain Count Philip Louis II of Hanau-Münzenberg listed as his attractions [in Amserdam]: the artillery house, a live elephant in the hall of the archers' guild, and 'hearing the city's organist'. Yes, Sweelinck was as popular as a performing pachyderm!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Berlio was considered the 'next Beethoven' for much of his life; even a certain Richard Wagner held him in the highest esteem. Not to mention Pagnini declaring "Beethoven is dead and only Berlioz can revive him".


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Elliott Carter
Shostakovich
Gubaidulina
R. Strauss


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BachIsBest said:


> Berlioz was considered the 'next Beethoven' for much of his life; even a certain Richard Wagner held him in the highest esteem. Not to mention Pagnini declaring "Beethoven is dead and only Berlioz can revive him".


Yes, Berlioz was considered one of the original "3 Bs". But Von Bulow later expelled him and substituted Brahms. It is said the Wagner, in a snit, discussed officially changing his name to Bagner.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Wasn't Copland considered the best living composer after Stravinsky died?


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Yes, Berlioz was considered one of the original "3 Bs". But Von Bulow later expelled him and substituted Brahms. It is said the Wagner, in a snit, discussed officially changing his name to Bagner.


The three B's, like many things, obey the rule that the original is the best!

Apologies to Brahms.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Isn't Penderecki considered the greatest living composer currently?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Isn't Penderecki considered the greatest living composer currently?


By some Polish nationalists---surely. Because he is from the same tribe. Other than that... there are always other contenders. It's more diluted nowadays.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Recently, I think it went Stravinsky -- Copland -- Messiaen -- Schnittke -- Rautavaara -- ???


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2019)

Composers' praising of other composers.

Like Facebook friends, an echo-chamber for mutual self-congratulation.

[add] Hm...that sounds mean, which wasn't my intention. As a regular poster 'below the line' on a newspaper website, I find it frustrating hearing for 99% of the time from others who share my views. I like to hear from and debate with those who bring a different perspective. So it is with FB, which I have left, as the only people I could talk to...and to whom I could express my opinions...were those who agreed with me.

So, it seems to me with composers. Much mutual admiration, unless of course, it's not.  The posting of this composer's opinion about that composer offers little insight. For example, what Saint-Saens thinks about Debussy doesn't tell me much about Debussy.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

regenmusic said:


> Wasn't Copland considered the best living composer after Stravinsky died?


In the USA perhaps. World-wide one would expect Shostakovich.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Phil loves classical said:


> Isn't Penderecki considered the greatest living composer currently?


He's one of dozens of candidates. I don't think you can point at one composer who is considered the greatest living composer currently.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

classical yorkist said:


> This most certainly was not the attitude toward Bach in his lifetime. His son was more famous and highly praised.


That diagram was from 1799, so less than 50 years after J.S. Bach's death and around 11 years after CPE's death. So if that diagram is any indication I don't think CPE was more highly praised for a very substantial amount of time. J.S. Bach was also revered by many during his lifetime.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

tdc said:


> That diagram was from 1799, so less than 50 years after J.S. Bach's death and around 11 years after CPE's death. So if that diagram is any indication I don't think CPE was more highly praised for a very substantial amount of time. J.S. Bach was also revered by many during his lifetime.


I don't disagree with what you've written but JS Bach was certainly not considered 'the best' during his lifetime. Whether that is artistically correct is besides the point. CPE Bach, however, was seen as being at the cutting edge of music during his lifetime and during their lifetime is what is up for discussion.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

classical yorkist said:


> I don't disagree with what you've written but JS Bach was certainly not considered 'the best' during his lifetime. Whether that is artistically correct is besides the point. CPE Bach, however, was seen as being at the cutting edge of music during his lifetime and during their lifetime is what is up for discussion.


Right, but it seems that you've set different goal posts for these two composers. You point out that J.S. was not considered the 'best'. But was CPE widely considered the 'best'? I haven't seen too much evidence supporting that claim. In terms of CPE all you've (correctly) stated was that he was considered 'cutting edge'. While it is accurate that this holds true in particular for CPE because he was a transitional composer between the baroque and classical eras, J.S. was also 'cutting edge' as he redefined the concepts of counterpoint, fugue was the first to publish a collection of fully worked out keyboard pieces in all 24 keys, was the pioneer of the keyboard concerto etc.

Yes, some considered him old fashioned at times but this is also true for Beethoven (who some consider perhaps the most innovative composer of all). It doesn't change the fact that J.S. Bach also created 'cutting edge' works.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Im not so sure that Bach J S wasn’t thought of as the best. One thing is sure: he was acknowledged by kings and composers as the best at counterpoint, it’s just that there were people who didn’t like contrapuntal music becoming more vociferous in the last 10 years of his life. Indeed paradoxically you see Bach J S ready to rise to the new challenge of the rococo and emfindsamer in his way, think of the trio sonata from Opfer (something written for a king! and something which maybe tries to find a way of finding (to parody Couperin) a sort of goûts réunis.)

Another thing to bear in mind when thinking about Bach and style is that when he was criticised, he seemed to be really reluctant to respond to the objections in writing, in words. He didn’t write articles, tracts, he didn’t publish books of words. It’s as if he wasn’t a word person, he was a music person. You may be able to see some of the late music as a musical response to criticism, taking some new ideas on board, providing reductio ad absurdum demonstrations of the consequences of others . . .


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Fabulin said:


> By some Polish nationalists---surely. Because he is from the same tribe. Other than that... there are always other contenders. It's more diluted nowadays.





Art Rock said:


> He's one of dozens of candidates. I don't think you can point at one composer who is considered the greatest living composer currently.


Makes sense. I think I heard that probably due to the fact he was around so long. I guess time will tell if he burned as brightly as some others.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> Im not so sure that Bach J S wasn't thought of as the best.


I believe JS was considered the best by many. The exaggerated tale that he was under appreciated in his time I believe stems from the fact that certain church employers felt Telemann was the most desirable composer to employ. While this is true, we can also observe this which KenOC posted in CPE's guestbook:

"CPE Bach was employed as Frederick the Great's harpsichordist. Johann Quantz was Freddie's flute teacher and composition teacher. Freddie had little time for CPE's compositions, much preferring the Italianate style of Quantz (who was paid about seven times as much as CPE)."

Even if we look towards the end of Beethoven's life it seems like a guy like Rossini was perhaps more popular for a time. But facts such as these I don't think are representative of these composers wider reputations.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> In the USA perhaps. World-wide one would expect Shostakovich.


But Shostakovich outlived Stravinsky by only four years...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> This "sun of composers" diagram produced by Augustus Kollmann in 1799 gives one perspective. Bach is in the centre, meaning the greatest. Of the living composers, Haydn is considered best. But KenOC's point about Beethoven is valid here too - it's obviously a Germanic worldview.
> 
> [AT
> 
> ...


cleared it up a little


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

rotated
Who's CH Graun?

Carl Heinrich Graun - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Carl_Heinrich_Graun
Carl Heinrich Graun (7 May 1704 - 8 August 1759) was a German composer and tenor singer. Along with Johann Adolph Hasse, he is considered to be the most important German composer of Italian opera of his time.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> It seems to me that all of the "great" composers were considered leading composers during their lifetimes, although many of their rivals have dropped away as time has past.


Not Schubert, though. Perhaps he died too young to have established himself.

As for the greatest living composer now, I may have it wrong but I think many among the informed would give that crown to Kurtag.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Not Schubert, though. Perhaps he died too young to have established himself.
> 
> As for the greatest living composer now, I may have it wrong but I think many among the informed would give that crown to Kurtag.


What would you recommend of Kurtag's music?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ The Kafka Fragments have been recorded many times. This is a good one:









And along with that I have very much enjoyed this set:


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## Harmonie (Mar 24, 2007)

I am surprised that Palestrina has not been brought up yet. His ideas of music composition was held very highly (like how to handle dissonances, if I recall correctly), even during his lifetime.


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