# Language Accents



## Jacob Singer

Since my other post on the subject apparently got deleted, I will ask again: Why do the British add the 'r' sound to the end of words such as 'saw' and 'flaw' (so they sound like "sawr" and "flawr", respectively)? 

And conversely, why do the British actually _eliminate_ the 'r' sound from words where the 'r' is clearly present (e.g. 'beer' is pronounced "BEE-uh", here is pronounced "HEE-uh", Singer is pronounced "SING-uh", etc.)? Where does the 'r' go?



If anything, standard American English sounds a hell of a lot more straightforward than the British variants. That's why it's the standard for our news broadcasts, etc., as it conforms most closely to written English (a complicated enough language to begin with), and is thus the easiest to understand for most people.

For example, 'pita' and 'Peter'... in American English, they're two totally different pronunciations (as they would appear as written), but in British they sound virtually the same.


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## emiellucifuge

A british person will do that because he grew up hearing other british people doing that and so on...


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## emiellucifuge

Why do Americans not sound the 'h' in Beet_h_oven?

Besides American english is ugly and irritating in its overly obvious pronounciation. All the most beautiful languages have complicated pronounciations IMO


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## Argus

Jacob Singer said:


> Since my other post on the subject apparently got deleted, I will ask again: Why do the British add the 'r' sound to the end of words such as 'saw' and 'flaw' (so they sound like "sawr" and "flawr", respectively)?
> 
> And conversely, why do the British actually _eliminate_ the 'r' sound from words where the 'r' is clearly present (e.g. 'beer' is pronounced "BEE-uh", here is pronounced "HEE-uh", Singer is pronounced "SING-uh", etc.)? Where does the 'r' go?
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, standard American English sounds a hell of a lot more straightforward than the British variants. That's why it's the standard for our news broadcasts, etc., as it conforms most closely to written English (a complicated enough language to begin with), and is thus the easiest to understand for most people.
> 
> For example, 'pita' and 'Peter'... in American English, they're two totally different pronunciations (as they would appear as written), but in British they sound virtually the same.


The British Isles has a vast wealth of different accents. Some conform to your points, others don't. For example, where I'm from many people pronounce 'bus' as 'buzz', and pretty much uniformly everyone says 'innit' or the older version 'intit' instead of 'isn't it'.

I don't understand what you mean about the 'saw' and 'flaw' with r's. How else do you say it other than 'sor'? Cockneys maybe say 'sah'.

I could just as easily say why do Americans pronounce Iraq as 'eye-rack' and Italian as 'eye-talian', but I'm sure not all regional accents will resemble this? However, no real American can properly pronounce Leicestershire, Peterborough, Woolwich, Worcester, Keswick, Loughborough or Cholmondeley.


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## Chris

Jacob Singer said:


> Since my other post on the subject apparently got deleted, I will ask again: Why do the British add the 'r' sound to the end of words such as 'saw' and 'flaw' (so they sound like "sawr" and "flawr", respectively)?


I've never noticed this! 



Jacob Singer said:


> And conversely, why do the British actually _eliminate_ the 'r' sound from words where the 'r' is clearly present (e.g. 'beer' is pronounced "BEE-uh", here is pronounced "HEE-uh", Singer is pronounced "SING-uh", etc.)? Where does the 'r' go?


This is true of the English but not the Scots. For horse, we say 'hawse' but the Scots pronounce an unmistakable r. It comes out as 'horrrrse'. Sometimes the Caledonian rhotacism is so extreme as to generate an extra syllable. There is a Robert Burns poem (I forget which) where it is obvious 'world' has to be pronounced as two syllables ('war-rold')


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## graaf

http://www.220.ro/emisiuni-tv/Only-Fools-And-Horses-Se1ep5-A-Slow-Bus-To-Chingford-1-3/1wyKcBOkCI/

Go to 45sec and check how Rodney pronounces "art"  Don't know how many British people talk like that, but I know I loled!


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## karenpat

Can't say I've noticed the British accent problem but I once bought a CD with a Finnish baritone that I had never heard of but who apparently won the Cardiff singer of the year competition (I don't remember the year) I had to put the CD away because his Finnish accent was so thick, I couldn't bring myself to listen to it. Something about how he pronounced the L's.


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## Chris

graaf said:


> http://www.220.ro/emisiuni-tv/Only-Fools-And-Horses-Se1ep5-A-Slow-Bus-To-Chingford-1-3/1wyKcBOkCI/
> 
> Go to 45sec and check how Rodney pronounces "art"  Don't know how many British people talk like that, but I know I loled!


I think that counts as 'stage cockney', along with gor blimey, luv a duck, get up them apples and pears.


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## bassClef

Jacob Singer said:


> Since my other post on the subject apparently got deleted, I will ask again: Why do the British add the 'r' sound to the end of words such as 'saw' and 'flaw' (so they sound like "sawr" and "flawr", respectively)?
> 
> And conversely, why do the British actually _eliminate_ the 'r' sound from words where the 'r' is clearly present (e.g. 'beer' is pronounced "BEE-uh", here is pronounced "HEE-uh", Singer is pronounced "SING-uh", etc.)? Where does the 'r' go?
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, standard American English sounds a hell of a lot more straightforward than the British variants. That's why it's the standard for our news broadcasts, etc., as it conforms most closely to written English (a complicated enough language to begin with), and is thus the easiest to understand for most people.
> 
> For example, 'pita' and 'Peter'... in American English, they're two totally different pronunciations (as they would appear as written), but in British they sound virtually the same.


Sawr, bee-uh?? Who on earth are you listening to!? No-one I know pronounces words like that.


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## starry

Argus said:


> The British Isles has a vast wealth of different accents. Some conform to your points, others don't.


I'm surprised you have to point that out here. Accents change from city to city. I suppose films establish some stereotypical views that some people abroad have.


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## Argus

starry said:


> I'm surprised you have to point that out here. Accents change from city to city. I suppose films establish some stereotypical views that some people abroad have.


Most British actors in Hollywood films are fairly posh or from the London area so Americans might actually think all English speak in Received Pronunciation or cockney accents. RP for the posh villains and dandy fops, and cockney for the poor street urchins and uneducated thugs/hard-men. Plus, I'm pretty sure Americans need subtitles for some Geordie and Glaswegian accents.



Bassclef said:


> Sawr, bee-uh?? Who on earth are you listening to!? No-one I know pronounces words like that.


Have you done a lot of travelling around the UK?


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## myaskovsky2002

Yo no hablo inglés, chico.

Martin


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## Aksel

Jacob Singer said:


> Since my other post on the subject apparently got deleted, I will ask again: Why do the British add the 'r' sound to the end of words such as 'saw' and 'flaw' (so they sound like "sawr" and "flawr", respectively)?


They only say that when the next word starts with a vowel. It makes the two easier to separate so that it's not all a big jumble of words. Like in "I saw-r a policeman". I think, at least.



> And conversely, why do the British actually _eliminate_ the 'r' sound from words where the 'r' is clearly present (e.g. 'beer' is pronounced "BEE-uh", here is pronounced "HEE-uh", Singer is pronounced "SING-uh", etc.)? Where does the 'r' go?


Again, I don't really know this, but I think it might be a remnant of French.



> For example, 'pita' and 'Peter'... in American English, they're two totally different pronunciations (as they would appear as written), but in British they sound virtually the same.


But that exists in American English as well. Words like "ant" and "aunt" are pronounced equally in American English, whereas in British English, they have different pronunciations.
But homonyms exist in any language. In Norwegian, for instance, the words for beans, peasants, and prayers are all pronounced very similarly, only with very subtle differences in intonation.


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## starry

Aksel said:


> But that exists in American English as well. Words like "ant" and "aunt" are pronounced equally in American English, whereas in British English, they have different pronunciations.


Again, it depends what part of Britain you are in. I pronounce them exactly the same.


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## elgar's ghost

If anyone thinks English is illogical then don't go anywhere near Gaelic - my mum's maiden name is Furphy, for which the Irish spelling is Foirbhilhe.


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## Jacob Singer

emiellucifuge said:


> Why do Americans not sound the 'h' in Beet_h_oven?


I've never heard anyone _not_ pronounce the 'h' in my entire life.

"vahn BAIT-ho-ven" is the only way I've ever heard it pronounced by Americans (and "fahn BAIT-ho-fen" by Germans). The pronunciation of _proper_ nouns from different languages can vary though - especially with regards to people's names - depending on a variety of factors. I was talking about accents used for pronouncing the standard lexicon within a single language.



Argus said:


> The British Isles has a vast wealth of different accents. Some conform to your points, others don't. For example, where I'm from many people pronounce 'bus' as 'buzz', and pretty much uniformly everyone says 'innit' or the older version 'intit' instead of 'isn't it'.


Yeah, I just meant the English accent like you'd hear on BBC or someplace, not the Irish or Scottish or Cockney accents.



Argus said:


> I don't understand what you mean about the 'saw' and 'flaw' with r's. How else do you say it other than 'sor'? Cockneys maybe say 'sah'.


Hmm... I don't know how else to write it: "flaw" as in "awe", with no 'r' in there at all. Basically like an operatic "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" 

When you make an 'r' sound, you sort of arch your tongue up in the back, right?

"I saw*r* a film today, oh boy".... like that?



Argus said:


> I could just as easily say why do Americans pronounce Iraq as 'eye-rack' and Italian as 'eye-talian', but I'm sure not all regional accents will resemble this?


That's not necessarily an accent thing. Proper nouns tend to get filtered from one language to another in funny ways sometimes:

eye-RACK
eye-ROCK
ih-RACK
ih-ROCK
ee-ROCK

Same with Iran. The names of these places get pronounced in a variety of ways because the media outlets haven't done a good job of pronouncing them consistently.

Now, I never hear "eye" in Italian unless someone is trying to be funny in an old-timey kind of way.


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## Huilunsoittaja

If I ever hear someone say Wagner with a W and not a V, or I hear someone say Brahms with same vowel as Graham, I go haywire.


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## starry

Jacob Singer said:


> Yeah, I just meant the English accent like you'd hear on BBC or someplace, not the Irish or Scottish or Cockney accents.


Except the BBC in Britain does allow other accents nowadays and has for quite a while.


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## Jacob Singer

starry said:


> Except the BBC in Britain does allow other accents nowadays and has for quite a while.




I wasn't implying that they didn't. I just meant the most commonly heard version via the media and other sources.


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## starry

Even the traditional BBC accent doesn't sound quite as it used to, things change over time.


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## Weston

Jacob Singer said:


> I've never heard anyone _not_ pronounce the 'h' in my entire life.


I hear it pronounced correctly on the radio, but out and about I do hear people say "BAY-toe-v'n. They're more likely to be talking about a St. Bernard however. I'm partial to Bill and Ted's Beeth oven, myself.

Of course, most Americans incorrectly say "Bah-ck" instead of "Bah-(hack up some phlegm and spit on the sidewalk)."


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## Jacob Singer

Weston said:


> Of course, most Americans incorrectly say "Bah-ck" instead of "Bah-(hack up some phlegm and spit on the sidewalk)."


:lol:

Yeah, and in some places there are even laws against that.


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## Delicious Manager

The UK has a vast array of accents, many of which clearly enunciate the 'r' at the ends of words ending in that letter. It is these very accents (mostly Irish and West Country) from which the 'American' accents derived, with their almost uniform pronunciation of final 'r's. Beware of gross, ill-informed generalisations!

We have only developed the notion of 'accents' and 'proper' pronunciation since the advent of broadcasting. Before that, one would have to travel widely to perceive that there WERE different accents - and even dialects (of which we thankfully still have several in the UK). The phoney BBC accent of the 1930s-60s was completely artificial, as is modern 'RP' (received pronunciation). Before broadcasting, NO-ONE spoke that way. Who was to say which accent was correct (aren't they ALL correct?) and which was incorrect? Lord Reith has a LOT to answer for. It is only in the last 20 years that the BBC has allowed 'regional' (ie PROPER) accents on news broadcasting. William Shakespeare would have spoken with a broad Warwickshire (Midlands) accent and this influenced the way he wrote.

Accents help define us and they should be encouraged and nurtured. How dull would it be if we all spoke with some pale, anonymous artificial accent?


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## science

From what I understand, one wouldn't have had to travel very widely at all to have found different accents in England. I think I've read that different London neighborhoods had their own accents.

I know that 20 years ago there was a neighborhood of Seoul that still had its own accent of Korean. 

Funny story of accents. Once I lived here in Korea with a roommate from Manchester, with a very strong accent that I sometimes couldn't understand. My cousin, with a strong Appalachian accent of his own called me, and my roommate answered the phone. Neither of them spoke Korean, they were both speaking English, but they didn't understand each other so each assumed the other one was speaking Korean, and they hung up.


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## Charon

Three things:

I have same question as OP... What's the deal with the pronounced "r" at the end of words like "saw"? 

Last time I was in the company of Americans, they always laughed at me when I said the word "about"... Said I pronounced it funny, and said it was characteristic of the typical Canadian accent. I have no idea what they were talking about. How do we say "about" funny?

Russian accents are hot.


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## hawk

In Maine, particularly "Downeast" we have our own unique way of speaking. There ah no ahs in the word cah (car)....
When I first moved here 24 years ago I did not understand the local way of speaking. I was listening to an old timer tell a story and barely understood a word. when he was finished I asked him how long he had been in the country. He looked puzzled and I mentioned that his language sounded as if he may be from Australia. He laughed saying his family had lived in the area since the mid 1600's. Interestingly when I visited Lincolnshire several years ago I found the language very similar. turns out that folks from that area of England landed in this part of Maine several hundred years ago.


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## graaf

hawk said:


> In Maine, particularly "Downeast" we have our own unique way of speaking. There ah no ahs in the word cah (car)....
> When I first moved here 24 years ago I did not understand the local way of speaking. I was listening to an old timer tell a story and barely understood a word. when he was finished I asked him how long he had been in the country. He looked puzzled and I mentioned that his language sounded as if he may be from Australia. He laughed saying his family had lived in the area since the mid 1600's. Interestingly when I visited Lincolnshire several years ago I found the language very similar. turns out that folks from that area of England landed in this part of Maine several hundred years ago.


fascinating story.


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## Argus

Charon said:


> Last time I was in the company of Americans, they always laughed at me when I said the word "about"... Said I pronounced it funny, and said it was characteristic of the typical Canadian accent. I have no idea what they were talking about. How do we say "about" funny?


Aboot.

Picked up from the Scots tongue maybe. I've been to Toronto and Hamilton and around the Great Lakes area in Canada and can't say I remember anyone saying 'aboot', but apparently in Montreal it's quite common.


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## Hazel

To quote Sir Winston: "We are two nations separated by a common language." If I ever finish learning Welsh, I am going to start learning British.


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## elgar's ghost

English, Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Irish, Welsh, Manx and Cornish - I wonder if anyone's ever learned them all?


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## Delicious Manager

elgars ghost said:


> English, Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Irish, Welsh, Manx and Cornish - I wonder if anyone's ever learned them all?


You missed-out Cumbric, close to Welsh, but once spoken in the west Borders region of northern England/southern Scotland.

And then there's Breton over in Brittany which, to a large extent, is mutually intelligible to Welsh speakers.


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## Hazel

elgars ghost said:


> English, Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Irish, Welsh, Manx and Cornish - I wonder if anyone's ever learned them all?


It would take a brave person to attempt it. And, you forgot Breton.


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## Delicious Manager

Hazel said:


> It would take a brave person to attempt it. And, you forgot Breton.


He might have, but I didn't (one post above you) :tiphat:


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## Hazel

Delicious Manager said:


> He might have, but I didn't (one post above you) :tiphat:


I should have done a bit of scrolling?


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## Rasa

hawk said:


> He laughed saying his family had lived in the area since the mid 1600's.


Even before columbus. Impressive.


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## mamascarlatti

Rasa said:


> Even before columbus. Impressive.


Since when were the mid 1600's before 1492?


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## Edward Elgar

Americans will put the R in say Georgia because they pronounce words the way they are spelt. American English is very much a beneficial evolution to the English language.

Considering local dialects in Britain, the main two trends excercised by the working classes manifest themselves in an attempt (probably concious) to make every consonant a glottal stop and to make every vowel sound the same (depending on the reigon). 

It is a plot to destroy the English language! Save it! Convert to American English!


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## Chris

Edward Elgar said:


> Considering local dialects in Britain....... and to make every vowel sound the same


OK....I'll admit it takes some of us about 60 seconds to say 'I'd rather have half a bathful of lather'


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## Hazel

Edward Elgar said:


> Americans will put the R in say Georgia because they pronounce words the way they are spelt. American English is very much a beneficial evolution to the English language.
> 
> Considering local dialects in Britain, the main two trends excercised by the working classes manifest themselves in an attempt (probably concious) to make every consonant a glottal stop and to make every vowel sound the same (depending on the reigon).
> 
> It is a plot to destroy the English language! Save it! Convert to American English!


I'll vote for that - being the good American that I am. I love telling this story. A friend was stationed in Germany some years back. He decided to cross the waters and visit Britain while he had the opportunity. In a London restaurant, he apparently used a word that has a totally different meaning in British English than in American English. The waitress proceded to give him a long lecture about the British English. "If you Americans are coming to our country, you should first learn to speak our language", she said. My friend, being a rather calm, gentle soul, stood up, thanked her, walked out and caught a train to Edinburgh. "In Scotland", he said, "they don't care how I speak as long as I spend my money." 

Before I go, not all Americans put an 'r' on the end of a word when it doesn't belong there. That is a local dialect from the east and not even all of those do it.


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## Rasa

mamascarlatti said:


> Since when were the mid 1600's before 1492?


Hmm, temporary temporal deficiency there.


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## Edward Elgar

I'd be interested to know which word your friend used Hazel. Depending on the word, the waitress may have been justified in her response!


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## Hazel

Edward Elgar said:


> I'd be interested to know which word your friend used Hazel. Depending on the word, the waitress may have been justified in her response!


He asked for a napkin - a very embarrasing mistake, I suppose.


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## Hazel

Rasa said:


> Hmm, temporary temporal deficiency there.


You could have said "in B.C." :lol:


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## Hazel

By the way, if anyone is interested, there is an excellent book titled "British English from A to Zed" by Norman W Schur, revised by Eugene Ehrlich. It has a very good cross-reference between British and American. Quite useful for writers.

And what does "revise" mean in British? "Review" to Americans.


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## graaf

Hazel said:


> The waitress proceded to give him a long lecture about the British English. "If you Americans are coming to our country, you should first learn to speak our language", she said.





Edward Elgar said:


> I'd be interested to know which word your friend used Hazel. Depending on the word, the waitress may have been justified in her response!


Sure, because when you go to a country having passport is not enough - you should take with you your certificate of proficiency for the country's official language. After all, since when does restaurant have anything to do with hospitality?



Hazel said:


> "In Scotland", he said, "they don't care how I speak as long as I spend my money."


And he could also enjoy "linguistic adventure":


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## starry

Edward Elgar said:


> Americans will put the R in say Georgia because they pronounce words the way they are spelt.


Connecticut.

They have strangely pronounced words just like anywhere else.

And 'winningest' is one of the worst inventions, used by people in sport.

Some names in America sound strange as well like Lawyer Malloy, they can pick some strange first names.

Gotten sounds and looks ugly, no wonder we got rid of it in Britain.


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## Chris

starry said:


> Gotten sounds and looks ugly, no wonder we got rid of it in Britain.


Almost. We still say ill-gotten gains.


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## Edward Elgar

Chris said:


> Almost. We still say ill-gotten gains.


If you're from London (or Landan if you're from London  ) you say:

"Iw g*glottal stop*en goins". Possibly suffixed by: "You slaaags!"


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## Hazel

starry said:


> Connecticut.
> 
> They have strangely pronounced words just like anywhere else.
> 
> And 'winningest' is one of the worst inventions, used by people in sport.
> 
> Some names in America sound strange as well like Lawyer Malloy, they can pick some strange first names.
> 
> Gotten sounds and looks ugly, no wonder we got rid of it in Britain.


Coincidence that you should mention "gotten". A friend and I were talking this morning about "have got". In America, "have got" is bad grammar but I am told it is correct in Britain. We had it drummed into our little heads over and over. "You do not 'have got' a closet full of clothes." You either "have" (meaning 'own') a closet full of clothes or you "got" (meaning 'received') a closet full of clothes. One day I heard an _Oxford _professor on BBC use "have got" and asked questions. I was told it is correct there.

Nice to have variety in our languages. Keeps life interesting.


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