# Opera for Opera Haters



## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

Hi, friends,
Basically, I do not like opera, esp. not Italian operas. However, there are exceptional operas which I do like, even love, and would like to recommend to people like me - and ask for an advice.

My favorite operas are:

Mussorgsky, Boris Godunov (amazing masterpiece!!! one in a million!! leaves all the rest far far behind!)
Offenbach, Tales of Hoffmann (*very very *different from the previous one, but lovely!)
Mussorgsky, The Sorotchintsy Fare (hardly played, but very nice).

Mozart's Magic Fulte is also fun.

If you got my favourite style(s), I will be glad to have your recommendations for similar works!

Thanks!

Benny


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Wagner? how about Lohengrin?
if you like Hoffman, how about Faust?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

how's about the rest of Mozart's operas? or they're a no-no because of the language? when you said no to Italian opera it wasn't clear to me if you meant Italian composers or any opera sung in Italian. How about French opera? Have you tried Gounod or Berlioz? Berlioz is such an interesting composer  And how about the Strausses? or the other Russian operas?


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

That's very difficult...


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

The only operas I really enjoy are Mozart's. I enjoy most anything by him, but my favorite is the Magic Flute. Still, Cose, Figaro, Don Giovanni are of course incredible. But I have had good impressions of all of his operas that I have heard. 

Still don't care for Wagner, although I sometimes enjoy his Meistersinger.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Its the Music*

This is a highly personal approach and probably does not work for everyone. For years, with a few exceptions like our friend _Boris_ or the operas of Britten, I never really cared for opera. In trying to learn about opera, I concentrated on studying the libretto. Whenever I listened to opera, I always followed along by reading the libretto. It turns out the plots to many operas are quite silly. I used to think that the key was hearing the operas in English. That did not work either. I remember, and I mentioned this once in another post, how I played in the pit orchestra in college for a production of Verdi's _La Traviata_. In one scene Violetta was prancing around the stage singing, "O God why must I die so young." That ruined the opera and in general Verdi for me.

I do not know exactly when, but I started to concentrate on the music. That changed everything for me. Now when I listen to an opera I rarely have any idea what is going on. This drives my wife crazy. We were at a recent MetHD performance Berlioz's _Les Troyens_. I drove my wife nuts telling her it was one my favorites and we had to see it. She kept asking me what is was about and all I could tell her was that it had something to do with Troy and Carthage. When we saw it I was much more familiar with the music than the plot. I am glad that I was enamored with the music because some of the libretto was rather silly.

If you like a composers symphonies, like Dvorák or Tchaikovsky, then you will probably like his operas. For example listening _Eugene Onegin_ is just like listening to _Swan Lake_ except there is a lot of singing.

Wish you luck.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

It's easy to try your style with youtube, just try some fragment from each composer for example


Perhaps you like operas with symphonic orchestration. 

I thought a little about it...

Fidelio by Beethoven
Les troyens by Berlioz
Anything by Mozart (The abduction of the Serail?)
Anything by Wagner (Tristan, Der Ring, Lohengrin, Parsifal)
Eugene Onegin and Dame Pique by Tchaikovsky
Thais, Werther by Massenet


(Italian opera must be tried Italian operas from the last Verdi and Verismo have a lot of symphonic orchestration:
The last Verdi (Othello, Falstaff)
Cavalleria Rusticana by Mascagni
Pagliacci by Leoncavallo
Boheme, Madama Butterfly, Fanciulla del west or Turandot by Puccini)


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Aside from not being Italian, I'm not seeing alot of commonalities in your list from which to extrapolate. So, ignoring the non-Italian aspect too, I'll make the following recommendations based on your individual likes:

Boris Godunov: Verdi's _Don Carlo_. Both include public scenes of royal pomp and private scenes of confession and self-doubt. Both deal with similar themes (succession and intrigues around the throne, public vs private lives, church vs monarch, persecuted peoples and the whiff of revolution...). Heck, both even begin with a prologue featuring a troublesome coronation, and both operas exist in multiple versions, none of which is definitive.

Tales of Hoffman: Puccini's _Il Trittico_ also presents three separate stories with an undercurrent of lust, cruelty, greed, and malice with occasional comic relief.


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## BeverlyAnne (Feb 2, 2013)

DrMike said:


> The only operas I really enjoy are Mozart's. I enjoy most anything by him, but my favorite is the Magic Flute. Still, Cose, Figaro, Don Giovanni are of course incredible. But I have had good impressions of all of his operas that I have heard.
> 
> Still don't care for Wagner, although I sometimes enjoy his Meistersinger.


I am the greenest opera novice out there but I do like the idea of concentrating on the music as opposed to trying to understand the storyline of the opera. I know a lot of the classical music I do enjoy is taken from operas.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Monteverdi and Purcell ftw.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

And don't forget the wonderful Czech operas of Janacek, Smetana and Dvorak .
Smetana's Bartred Bride is great fun . Rusalka by Dvorak is a touching fairy tale about a watersprite who falls in love with a prince with tragic results and the music is indescribably gorgeous !
Janacek's Jenufa is a grim tale of lust, pre-marital sex and infanticide in a small Czech village but which ends on a hopeful note , and the music is also gorgeous . 
His "The cunning little vixen" is a whimsical yet serious story about the animals of a Czech forest,including a vixen who is captured by a forester as a pet but who escapes to forge a life of her own . The music is strange but enchanting . 
"The devil and kate" by Dvorak nay be the funniest comic opera ever, with a rollicking score . 
The Supraphon DVD of the Bartred Bride is excellent, as well as the Rusalka DVD with renee Fleming and James Conlon conducting . Also try the DVD of Jenufa from the Glyndeourne festival of England conducted by Sir Andrew Davis, and the DVD of the devil and Kate from the Wexford festival in Ireland (sung in English ).
The others have English subtitles .
Don't miss the classic Decca recordings of Janacek opera conducted by the late, great Sir Charles Mackerras, or any Czech opera recordings on the Czech republic's own Supraphon label, recorded at the source by native Czechs .


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Hmm, perhaps Beethoven's Fidelio? Not the most popular opera but it has that compelling Beethoven bombast that appeals to so many. 

I would say Berlioz' Les Troyens were it not such an extensive piece, opera haters would probably be confirmed in their distaste for opera simply by the sheer size of the work. Maybe the second and fourth acts only...


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Benny said:


> Mozart's Magic Fulte is also fun.


Well that's a way to put it  Try more Mozart. Figaro or Don Giovanni to start with. Yes it's Italian.


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry, friends, most of you didn't catch my taste.
Italian operas is not a matter of labguage - I love the Italian language - but of style. I hate all those screaming sopranos, the annoying recitatives, the imbecile plots, the overdramatizaion. Rule out all Verdis, Rossinis, Puccinis and the rest. Mozart is no better. 
Wagner is lengthy, noisy, overdramatizing. I like his overtures, the operas themselves are boring. 

My wife had a friend who hated fish. She said there is only one fish restaurant where she likes to eat fish, because there they know how to take the fish-taste out of the fish... The same is with me in operas. I like Mussorgsky's operas because they are not operatic, they are much more "serious": the music is thoughtful, almost religious, the plot is not banal (Pushkin!), etc.

Indeed, Offenbach is the opposite, but I will relate to him later.

I tried Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Rimsky-Korsakov and other Russians - they didn't do the job.

I think I will try Berlioz and Massenet, following Hesoos's recommendation.

Other tries?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Richard Strauss? Start with Salome or Elektra.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Baroque Italian Operas are different from Romantic Italian Operas. But if you aren't fond of Baroque either, than maybe not. I think though that Baroque Operas are the easiest to listen to. I haven't heard Rameau's Operas or Lully's but heard good things about them as well.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Have you ever tried Wagner's _Parsifal_? That's the most serious I can think of.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

if you like serious stuff, how about Bartok (Bluebeard's Castle; ok, not that serious, but at least it's as far as it gets from the Italian stylee) and Enescu (Oedipe)? If you want to try Berlioz, don't forget La damnation de Faust, it's not that long but it's gorgeous.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> I think though that Baroque Operas are the easiest to listen to.


I'm with you but, judging by his commen above, he might have an issue with the silly plots and the vocal style. Most people I've tried to get into opera actually have the hardest time with Baroque. Those in-your-face 5min melismas really freak them out


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sounds like you want less operatic operas ... The Nose, Dialogues of the Caramelites (sorry), and Pelleas and Melisande spring to mind ... possibly Gluck's Orfeo et Eurydice and Iphigenie en Tauride ...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Gluck's Orfeo et Eurydice and Iphigenie en Tauride ...


yes, you should go for the version with Alagna, which skips the bravura aria _and_ the happy ending! if you try other versions, try to shield your ears if Orfeo gets all happy at the end of act I  but Iphigenie should be safely serious (I've actually only seen it once and was rather put off by the constant whinging (sorry, _suffering_), but, yanno, different strokes...).


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Well both Boris and Hoffman are kind of one-off's for the most part. Yes, Berlioz may fit the bill. For that matter, Symphony Fantastique is pretty much an opera in symphonic form.

But Massenet? Glorious and inspired music yes, but Werther is the absolutely epitomy of banal melodrama, Thais not far behind, and even Manon: man steals woman from convent, who in turn steals man from seminary, society frowns... not quite Boris material. I still say give Don Carlo a try. Did I mention there's a chorus of monks and a major part for the Grand Inquistor?

Some of GTG's 20th century suggestions may work too. Perhaps Britten too.


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you, guys.
I've just bought Werther. Hesoos, if it's not good - I'll sue you!!:devil:

Wagner is "serious" but not my music. Bartok, Britten and Shostakovitch - too modern. Baroque operas - out. 
Some of the romantic operas you mentioned are indeed possibilities. I hope to try them sooner or later.

B.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

To cure you from your Italian cold: try Monteverdi's Orfeo. Those blaring trumpets & trombones at the very beginning will cleanse you of all your sins. When you love Boris, you will adore Prokofiev. Try some of his later operas with choirscenes (War & Peace), or Ivan the Terrible or Alexander Nevsky. Nice of you to mention Sorochinsky Fair. :tiphat:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Monteverdi L'Incoronazione di Poppea. The most real and human and fallible characters of any opera, ever.

Edit: I saw you said "baroque operas - out" - is it the musical style, or the silly plots? Because this is early baroque style, more like madrigals, and the plot is not silly, being based on rather unpleasant historical facts.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

Did I miss someone mentioning Khovanschina? I'd think it'd be perfect for you.

And, I second the suggestion of Don Carlos. Start with the dialogue between King Phillip and the Grand Inquisitor.


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

Khovashcina is good, but less than the other 2 (of Mussorgsky).
Don Carlos? I think I will try.

Txllxt, forget about Monteverdi. Ivan the Terrible - I love it (yes, you got my taste!) but it's not an opera! - War and Peace - worth trying, if it's not "hard-modern".

Thanks, guys, your info is great!


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Benny said:


> Mussorgsky, Boris Godunov...Offenbach, Tales of Hoffmann...Mussorgsky, The Sorotchintsy Fare...Mozart's Magic Fulte


the above mentioned are among my faves too, even though i consider myself an opera fan.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Benny said:


> Ivan the Terrible - I love it (yes, you got my taste!) but it's not an opera!


then try the ballet -


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

So no love for Italian or Baroque Operas whatsoever. Well anyways, I'm out.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

AnaMendoza said:


> And, I second the suggestion of Don Carlos. Start with the dialogue between King Phillip and the Grand Inquisitor.


Great scene! My attorney has recommended that I attach following clip as a disclaimer against future legal action by dissatisified opera haters. :angel:


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Hi Benny,
I listen mostly to italian Operas too (not to say other languages Operas aren't worth, it's just that time is constrained).

It's hard suggest someone else what can like but reading your post I would recommend to check for the russian side
Rimsky-Korsakov: The legend of invisible city Kitezh and the maiden Fevronia
Tchaikovsky: Iolanta, Eugene Onegin

Also you if you haven't try check less known (but worthy) italian Operas like 
Gian Francesco Malipiero: La bottega del caffè
Nino Rota: Il Cappello di Paglia di Firenze, Napoli Milionaria!
Franco Leoni: L'oracolo
Vittorio Gnecchi: Cassandra
Ennio Porrino: I Shardana
Ermanno Wolf-Ferrari: I Quatro Rusteghi, Il Segreto di Susanna
Luigi Dallapiccola: Il prigioniero, Volo di notte (it's atonal but ones of the few I actually like especially Il Prigioniero)

All were composed in the 20th century.
I regard well Richard Strauss too, although I have yet to delve deeply in it.

EDIT:
Oh, I read wrong the OT, I thought you said you didn't like Opera much except italian Opera but now I see, it's the opposite.
Sorry.

But if I get your "search for seriousness" right, try check Il Prigioniero (and read the translated libretto, it's great IMO).


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

"Basically, I do not like opera....
"Sorry, friends, most of you didn't catch my taste.
I hate all those screaming sopranos, the annoying recitatives, the imbecile plots, the overdramatizaion. Rule out all Verdis, Rossinis, Puccinis and the rest. Mozart is no better"

Benny, I'm glad our tastes differ so wildly!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Change is possible.*



JCarmel said:


> "Basically, I do not like opera....
> "Sorry, friends, most of you didn't catch my taste.
> I hate all those screaming sopranos, the annoying recitatives, the imbecile plots, the overdramatizaion. Rule out all Verdis, Rossinis, Puccinis and the rest. Mozart is no better"
> 
> Benny, I'm glad our tastes differ so wildly!


I find your post very interesting. The opera bug did not bite me until I was in my early fifties. Prior to that your critique was identical to mine. I still have problems with most Verdi: "O God why must I die so young?"

Then there is also Verdi's _Un ballo in maschera (A Masked Ball)_: "My Children, I'm dying. My Children, I'm dying."

Check out my earlier post: http://www.talkclassical.com/23704-opera-opera-haters.html#post414922


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> I find your post very interesting. The opera bug did not bite me until I was in my early fifties. Prior to that your critique was identical to mine. I still have problems with most Verdi: "O God why must I die so young?"
> 
> Then there is also Verdi's _Un ballo in maschera (A Masked Ball)_: "My Children, I'm dying. My Children, I'm dying."
> 
> Check out my earlier post: http://www.talkclassical.com/23704-opera-opera-haters.html#post414922


In my experience, English translations nearly always sound worse and more affected than the originals, either because they're translated word-for-word, or because they throw on an unnecessary layer of pseudo-archaism (granted, Wagner wrote in pseudo-archaisms anyway...).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> I still have problems with most Verdi: "O God why must I die so young?"
> 
> Then there is also Verdi's _Un ballo in maschera (A Masked Ball)_: "My Children, I'm dying. My Children, I'm dying."


And in _Il trovatore_ a mother would throw the wrong baby on to a bonfire!! But the music is so wonderful we manage to forget the stupid plot


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I understand that a lot of people think that the plots of operas are silly:lol:. The contemporary stories in movies and books are very different. But in the XIX century the people liked these plots. The realistic plots in operas came with the Verismo (and before that Carmen and Traviata).

But in my case, I like a lot the plots of the operas . For me the best plot is from Rigoletto. Il trovatore for me is very nice, the wrong baby is on the bonfire because of the destiny or some supernatural coincidence, these are themes from the Romantic era (looks like a bit surrealistic), Manrico didn't kill his brother when he had the chance because of the voice that said to him "don't harm him". il trovatore in his original theatrical version in Spain(El trobador by Antonio García Gutiérrez) was a great success. 

But in the XIX century these stories wasn't silly, the people believed in superstitions, the destiny, in fantastic coincidences and supernatural powers. Verdi for example believed in the destiny and was afraid of curses. Verdi explained about how he when was a child, he argued with a priest and said to him "I'd like that a lightning would harm you", and some time later a lightning killed the priest. When Verdi was in Naples working in his Ballo in maschera someone cursed him and he was very afraid about it.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hesoos said:


> But in my case, I like a lot the plots of the operas .


:cheers: you're not alone. I'm a big fan of the classic Metastasio plot from _La Clemenza di Tito_  it's pretty much got all that Benny hates - shrieking soprano, long recitatives, unrealistic character (Tito)


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Benny said:


> Thank you, guys.
> I've just bought Werther. Hesoos, if it's not good - I'll sue you!!:devil:
> 
> Wagner is "serious" but not my music. Bartok, Britten and Shostakovitch - too modern. Baroque operas - out.
> ...


Werther is a good opera. It's based on "The Sorrows of Young Werther" is an epistolary and loosely autobiographical novel by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (the best German writer). The book was a bestseller in his time and was "cursed"! A lot of people after reading the book committed suicide, That effect was called the Werther fever.
Alfredo Kraus singing Werther.






But my favorite opera by Massenet is Thais. Thais is full with descriptive symphonic orchestration, and the plot is very philosophical and serious
the hymn Alexandrie.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Star Wars, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Ring , Avatar, and other fantasy movies are not like real life at all .
Yet countless people all over the world love them even though they are not at all "realistic ". 
Wagner's Ring , which is the granddaddy of these fantasy movies, is not like real life either .
But so what ? It's a fantastic story full of gods, superheroes, giants, dwarves, a magic ring, water nixies,
flying horses, a helmet that enables you to become invisible or change into anything etc. 
Cool ! Of course, it's more profound than that, but so what ?


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

superhorn said:


> Star Wars, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Ring , Avatar, and other fantasy movies are not like real life at all .
> Yet countless people all over the world love them even though they are not at all "realistic ".
> Wagner's Ring , which is the granddaddy of these fantasy movies, is not like real life either .
> But so what ? It's a fantastic story full of gods, superheroes, giants, dwarves, a magic ring, water nixies,
> ...


Perhaps when I spoke about "silly plots" I was thinking more than anything in Italian operas. 
I spoke about Realistic style because this was the "end" of the Romantic style. In the XX century the fantasy is in another level. In the modern fantasy movies there are not stranges coincidences, and the fantastic is more "logical",less "silly or impossible". The science fiction in Star wars,Avatar, Jules Verne, Alien, Vampyres, or the contemporary mythology creates another world where all is explained and understandable, they create another "Reality".

For example, in Il trovatore why a voice speaks to Manrico "Don't harm him"? How Aida gets to the tomb of Radames? How is possible that Azuzena kills his own child by distraction? These "inpossible" things are not explained by the authors of the operas. You can't never know why. In the modern fantasy stories you don't wonder "huh! why? That's silly!" because all is explained why: If someone hears a voice, there is a ghost or he is going crazy.

About Wagner, his work is not "silly", is philosophical. And... I don't know what to say about Wagner. The world of the Ring is a logical one if you are an European from 1500 years ago. The theme of Destiny is anyway in all Wagner, and maybe this theme is a bit old fashioned or differently treated nowadays.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hesoos said:


> About Wagner, his work is not "silly", is philosophical. And... I don't know what to say about Wagner. The world of the Ring is a logical one if you are an European from 1500 years ago. The theme of Destiny is anyway in all Wagner, and maybe this theme is a bit old fashioned or differently treated nowadays.


why are you apologizing? I don't know how people arrived to the idea that you were even thinking about Wagner's work when you were talking about silly plots... plus, whether Wagner's plots are silly or not is a matter of opinion. To me everything involving gods or nymphs etc. is sillier than the sillier plots (the Azucena thing) that involve "humans".

I actually wanted to comment on what you said about Rigoletto - what a wonderful character, indeed! A proper flawed human being, with a "business" face and a very different private life. Very modern. I also like the whole thing about the Duke being rotten but singing so sweetly, which is exactly the opposite of Rigoletto, who is sweet on the inside. Lots of duality here, nice parallels. Come to think of it, even Gilda, from sheltered girl turns out to be a very strong woman.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

deggial said:


> why are you apologizing? I don't know how people arrived to the idea that you were even thinking about Wagner's work when you were talking about silly plots... plus, whether Wagner's plots are silly or not is a matter of opinion. To me everything involving gods or nymphs etc. is sillier than the sillier plots (the Azucena thing) that involve "humans".
> 
> I actually wanted to comment on what you said about Rigoletto - what a wonderful character, indeed! A proper flawed human being, with a "business" face and a very different private life. Very modern. I also like the whole thing about the Duke being rotten but singing so sweetly, which is exactly the opposite of Rigoletto, who is sweet on the inside. Lots of duality here, nice parallels. Come to think of it, even Gilda, from sheltered girl turns out to be a very strong woman.


I don't apologize about Wagner, I apologize because I spoke about Romantic operas in general and they are not all the same. I was thinking about Italian operas like Verdi (or Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini. Is not "silly" or a bit "surrealistic" Norma's suicide or the "mad scene" of Lucia di Lammermoor?).

I'm also a Rigoletto lover! . 
Rigoletto is my favorite opera since the first time I listened to it (And Rigoletto was the second complete opera I listened to). Rigoletto's music is the best music ever composed in my opinion...:tiphat: And the plot is fantastic, the best ever. I like a lot "silly" plots like this. And the story of Rigoletto is actually a bit naive:

Count Monterone went to yell to the duke and to Rigoletto because of his daughter, and then was arrested at the Duke's order and Monterone cursed the Duke and Rigoletto. Didn't can Monterone make his curse in his own home without being arrested? Didn't he think in some other plan B? Is it normal that an assassin offers his services to someone unknown man? Is it possible to be blindfolded, like they do to Rigoletto, and don't notice anything? Why Gilda after being raped and despite knowing the duke to be unfaithful, returns dressed as a man at the home of Sparafucile to be assassinated in his place? What kind of love is this? Why didn't she call for the police or the duke's army for the salvation of the duke? Why the curse only affected Rigoletto and no the duke?
I don't criticize Rigoletto!!! I do love "surrealistic" plots like this.
If Rigoletto was more logical perhaps I wouldn't like it...

Anyway...I would like to apologize to Benny if this thread is distracted because of me. Sorry


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hesoos said:


> I don't apologize about Wagner, I apologize because I spoke about Romantic operas in general and they are not all the same. I was thinking about Italian operas like Verdi (or Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini. Is not "silly" or a bit "surrealistic" Norma's suicide or the "mad scene" of Lucia di Lammermoor?).
> 
> I'm also a Rigoletto lover! .
> Rigoletto is my favorite opera since the first time I listened to it (And Rigoletto was the second complete opera I listened to). Rigoletto's music is the best music ever composed in my opinion...:tiphat: And the plot is fantastic, the best ever. I like a lot "silly" plots like this. And the story of Rigoletto is actually a bit naive:
> ...


oh, ok, I get it about Romantic operas.

you can criticize, I do it all the time with the stuff I love. If it's silly, it's silly, no matter how much you love it. And on the subject of my homie Bellini, Norma isn't half unrealistic compared to the plots of La Somnambula or Beatrice di Tenda (so convoluted, no wonder Romani wasn't done with the libretto in time - I just love the wikipedia synopsis of it, it's hysterical!). I also think the mad scene in Lucia works. Then again, I love me a scenery-chewing heroine :trp:

but back to Rigoletto, this is my take on it: the count needed to go in person out of a sense of honour. Hard to understand for us these days, but I think that's how they thought back then. He wanted to make a statement, even if it meant he was going to be arrested. I think (from films ) sometimes assassins will be hired without being given too much info about their client. It doesn't really matter, does it, as long as they're sure to get their pay? can't really come up with anything regarding the blindfold. Gilda is kinda like Donna Anna, they are quite ambiguous. But maybe that's how women were viewed back then, they would immediately fall in love after having sex, regardless of the circumstances  or something... I find that very confusing, too. I'm pretty sure the police was in the duke's power, as well, but, yea, she could have uncovered the assassination plot. But that wouldn't have been as noble. Imagine a finale where Gilda lives after what happened. Maybe too verismo for its time. I guess women just died after something like that back then. Maybe the duke had a counter-curser in his retinue, that's why the curse did not affect him. yea, those are silly.

you know what, maybe we should have a separate thread for discussing plots.


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## LittleSoubrette (Feb 6, 2013)

Menotti has some good operas. "The Medium" is really dark and creepy, but also very touching. "The Telephone" (also by him) is pretty funny, too. I've recently discovered the opera "La fille du regiment" and I love it. Very light and funny, also has some touching moments.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

LittleSoubrette said:


> Menotti has some good operas. "The Medium" is really dark and creepy, but also very touching. "The Telephone" (also by him) is pretty funny, too. I've recently discovered the opera "La fille du regiment" and I love it. Very light and funny, also has some touching moments.


Back in 2011 my wife and I attended the Sante Fe Opera. They staged a performance of the _Last Savage_, a little known rarely performed opera buffa by Menotti. It was fantastic and one of the funniest operas we had ever seen. :lol:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

so, Benny, did you like Werther?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bizet's Carmen has the distinction of being popular and also a staggering masterpiece. I don't know whether it is the most performed opera today but it is certainly one of the most frequently performed.

The original version (with spoken dialogue) premiered on March 3, 1875 and met with a lukewarm response from the audience. Though not a failure (it ran for 45 more performances), Bizet felt that no one understood his work. Other musicians, however, recognized Bizet’s brilliance with praise from Saint-Saens, Tchaikovsky, Richard Strauss, Brahms, Gounod, Debussy, Grieg, Puccini, Frederick Nietzsche (‘a perfect antidote to Wagnerian neurosis’) and even Richard Wagner (‘At last. Some one with new ideas.’)
To me Carmen is the perfect introduction to serious Opera. Brilliant!


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