# Round: Turandot's Final Moments. Marc and Marton



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I know it is not Puccini but I LOVE the end of Turandot! She is different than she was earlier. The tenor sings a bit in the part I have chosen but it is 80% Turandot. I have chosen my 4 favorite Turandots: Marc, Marton, Sutherland and Nilsson. I also love Dimitrova but I wanted an even number. I hope you enjoy. I believe I have things cued up more or less to the same spot. Only Sutherland was not known for singing it onstage, but her recording got unexpectedly rave reviews. I think the cueing up works thanks to Shaughnessy being patient with me. As always if the video is not available click on the Youtube link.




Alessandra Marc Sinopoli Kobenhaven 1:51:58





Marton Domingo Met 06:35


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I LOVE Marc as Turandot. So emotional and with such a gorgeous, gorgeous clarion voice. Marton was a spectacular Turandot but strangely it wasn't until her later ones that she learned to lighten up a bit and get up to C. Here she goes no higher than B and she is in great form. I found her to be so beautiful onstage which was a plus. Most of her stuff is video which is why I used this. This is one of her first video recordings. Her voice didn't age so well. I had never seen this but my friend Ellen and I were really blown away at how beautiful this was when we saw this last week and it spawned this contest.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I like Marc’s tone better than the Marton grainy one at that time, though I think both sing well enough.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't think it's accurate to say that this music is not Puccini. The composer's sketches for the scene were apparently extensive, including much music for the vocal lines, and I suspect that Alfano was as faithful in using them as his considerable compositional skills would permit. I find this part of the score as rewarding as most of the rest, and I think Alfano gets criticized mainly because he wasn't Puccini. There are parts of Alfano's original, longer ending that sound more Alfanesque than Puccinian, but as it happens I like those bits too.

Alessandra Marc has a beautiful voice with an odd, covered quality in the lower midrange and a distinct chest tone. Turandot is an odd character, a mix of the fierce and the ethereal, and I find Marc generally satisfying. Marton's is an earthier sound, less suggestive of Turandot's uniquenss but dramatically effective.

Marc by a hair, I guess.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think it's accurate to say that this music is not Puccini. The composer's sketches for the scene were apparently extensive, including much music for the vocal lines, and I suspect that Alfano was as faithful in using them as his considerable compositional skills would permit. I find this part of the score as rewarding as most of the rest, and I think Alfano gets criticized mainly because he wasn't Puccini. There are parts of Alfano's original, longer ending that sound more Alfanesque than Puccinian, but as it happens I like those bits too.
> 
> Alessandra Marc has a beautiful voice with an odd, covered quality in the lower midrange and a distinct chest tone. Turandot is an odd character, a mix of the fierce and the ethereal, and I find Marc generally satisfying. Marton's is an earthier sound, less suggestive of Turandot's uniqueness but dramatically effective.
> 
> Marc by a hair, I guess.


   Great background clarification. I thought it sounded very much like the rest of the opera so I feel more kosher now.
Callas like Marc had different colors in different parts of their voices and I find it adds drama. Many people including me love the smoky middle part of Marc's voice. That part of the voice projected well in an opera house even though it was darker in color like a mezzo. In Marc what unites the different registers is that fast, narrow shimmering vibrato all at the same rate of oscillation. What I like about both of today's singers is they both had instantly recognizable voices, something I latch onto in a recording as opposed to it being less of a factor live.
I didn't include Callas as I am not alone in thinking that though her interpretation is as always impeccable, I don't think the music shows her voice to it's best advantage even before her weight loss. I think in a house it must have been thrilling with the great amplitude she had before she lost weight.. I don't think she ever sang it after she lost weight.
Marton supposedly shook the walls as Turandot, which is what many people want.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I didn't include Callas as I am not alone in thinking that though her interpretation is as always impeccable, I don't think the music shows her voice to it's best advantage even before her weight loss. I think in a house it must have been thrilling with the great amplitude she had before she lost weight.. I don't think she ever sang it after she lost weight.
> Marton supposedly shook the walls as Turandot, which is what many people want.


You're right. Apart from the recording, she herself stated she dropped the role as soon as she could. She first sang it in Veince in 1948, then in Udine, Genova, Caracalla in Rome, Verona and Pisa. In 1949 she sang it in Naples and Buenos Aires but never again until the recording in 1957, when she wouldn't even have considered singing it on stage. That was a hell of a lot of Turandots in a short space of time.

It was supposed to be the role of her US Debut in 1946 in Chicago, but the company folded before opening. Subsequently she auditioned for *La Gioconda* in Verona in front of the veteran tenor, Giovanni Zenatello. Zenatello got so excited he jumped up on stage and joined her in the final duet and the rest, as they say, is history.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

FYI, I could only listen to the Marc clip by going direct to youtube and that just took me to the complete opera, so I had to fast forward to the final aria. I don't know if that will be the same for others outside the US.

Anyway, both sopranos do pretty well and a lot better than most sopranos I've heard singing the role these days. Marton is dramatically effective, but I preferred te greater beauty of Marton's voice. After all at this point the ice maiden has melted.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> You're right. Apart from the recording, she herself stated she dropped the role as soon as she could. She first sang it in Veince in 1948, then in Udine, Genova, Caracalla in Rome, Verona and Pisa. In 1949 she sang it in Naples and Buenos Aires but never again until the recording in 1957, when she wouldn't even gave considered singing it on stage. That was a hell of a lot of Turandots in a short space of time.
> 
> It was supposed to be the role of her US Debut in 1946 in Chicago, but the company folded before opening. Subsequently she auditioned for *La Gioconda* in Verona in front of the veteran tenor, Giovanni Zenatello. Zenatello got so excited he jumped up on stage and joined her in the final duet and the rest, as they sayd, is history.


I don't think of it as the type of role she would revel in that would not call for a lot of nuance. The first half of In Questa Reggia is actually very lyrical but much of the rest of the role is sung in 5th gear as it were, especially that murderous Riddle Scene. No wonder Nilsson made more money as Turandot than any other role because she excelled at this. You rarely ever hear of a 25 year old singing Turandot!!!!!!! I wonder if singing all those very demanding roles, especially Turandot and Isolde, by Callas before the voice is fully mature in most singers didn't play a role in her vocal problems after the mid 50's. Perhaps her voice was totally mature at 25... earlier than your average dramatic soprano. I'm just speculating here. I think I read where her voice sounded like a mature woman as a teenager somewhere in my past so maybe it matured early.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> FYI, I could only listen to the Marc clip by going direct to youtube and that just took me to the complete opera, so I had to fast forward to the final aria. I don't know if that will be the same for others outside the US.
> 
> Anyway, both sopranos do pretty well and a lot better than most sopranos I've heard singing the role these days. Marton is dramatically effective, but I preferred te greater beauty of Marton's voice. After all at this point the ice maiden has melted.


Was that fairly easy with the time stamp I gave? I will give that for any cued up piece just in case.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't think of it as the type of role she would revel in that would not call for a lot of nuance. The first half of In Questa Reggia is actually very lyrical but much of the rest of the role is sung in 5th gear as it were, especially that murderous Riddle Scene. No wonder Nilsson made more money as Turandot than any other role because she excelled at this. You rarely ever hear of a 25 year old singing Turandot!!!!!!! I wonder if singing all those very demanding roles, especially Turandot and Isolde, by Callas before the voice is fully mature in most singers didn't play a role in her vocal problems after the mid 50's. Perhaps her voice was totally mature at 25... earlier than your average dramatic soprano. I'm just speculating here. I think I read where her voice sounded like a mature woman as a teenager somewhere in my past so maybe it matured early.


According to RES, who was once active on TC but seems to have disappeared, and who has written extensively about Callas elsewhere, she went through puberty very early and also went through the menopause very early. He attributes part of the reason for her early and rapid vocal decline to this fact. I don't know how true that is, or even how he knew this, but it's certainly a plausible theory.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Was that fairly easy with the time stamp I gave? I will give that for any cued up piece just in case.


Well I had to play the Marton version first and work out how much of the opera was left, but it was easy enough to do.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well I had to play the Marton version first and work out how much of the opera was left, but it was easy enough to do.


This will happen again and look for the time stamp above or below the video. It is best I have learned to prepare for contingencies and I always enjoy your critiques on the one's that interest you.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

In fact, Alfano's ending was not fully approved even by Toscanini himself, that performed several cuts and small changes, that was the version used until the 1980s, when the full music written by Alfano was restored.

We have also Berio, Coppola, Hao Weiya... endings.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Neither are favourites but I went with Marton here. My favourite Turandot is Gina Cigna who has an immense, if slightly unruly, voice and who gives the character more warmth than the vocally faultless but straight-forward Nilsson. Sutherland’s Turandot is one of my favourite of her recordings although unfortunately Pavarotti isn’t right for Calaf.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm listening to Marton first and I'm very much enjoying it. I never saw Marton live, but I did see Marc (and she didn't do much for me). Marton sounds soft and feminine at all the right moments and yet her voice fills the larger traces of this when it has to. This is my go to Turandot on video and everything about this (including the conducting and Domingo's contribution) confirm that choice. Marton has it all here. Her voice is solid and penetrating without any wobble in the loud parts, but as already mentioned she sings with wonderful pathos in her melting earlier passages. I will give Marc a listen next, but this is going to take some beating (even Sutherland and Nilsson may run up short here).

Marc isn't what I expected or remembered from her and she is far more expressive here than I've heard her anywhere else. I think I prefer the natural timbre of her voice out of these two (it's certainly more distincitve than Marton's). However, I now remember why I dislike her. If only she would remove the potato out of her mouth! This is a really difficult one as Marc is rather more expressive than Marton, but I find it uncomfortable to listen to her voice.

A tough one. I feel as though the Marton/Met performance is a classic one that gives us Turandot without surprises, whereas Sinopoli and Marc give us an unusual and experimental take on the piece.

I'm going with Marc, vocal expression wins!

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I'm listening to Marton first and I'm very much enjoying it. I never saw Marton live, but I did see Marc (and she didn't do much for me). Marton sounds soft and feminine at all the right moments and yet her voice fills the larger traces of this when it has to. This is my go to Turandot on video and everything about this (including the conducting and Domingo's contribution) confirm that choice. Marton has it all here. Her voice is solid and penetrating without any wobble in the loud parts, but as already mentioned she sings with wonderful pathos in her melting earlier passages. I will give Marc a listen next, but this is going to take some beating (even Sutherland and Nilsson may run up short here).
> 
> Marc isn't what I expected or remembered from her and she is far more expressive here than I've heard her anywhere else. I think I prefer the natural timbre of her voice out of these two (it's certainly more distincitve than Marton's). However, I now remember why I dislike her. If only she would remove the potato out of her mouth! This is a really difficult one as Marc is rather more expressive than Marton, but I find it uncomfortable to listen to her voice.
> 
> ...


My friend Ellen and I love the potato mouth but we are both meat and potato type of listeners LOL! Thanks for your well thought out critique. Marc got better as she matured.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am preparing for the next round and I found two live recordings with Nilsson but they had cut this scene in half in both versions so I can't use them. Why would they cut this scene with so much gorgeous music? To try and give Turandot less taxing music to sing? The opera isn't that long so it can't be for brevity.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am preparing for the next round and I found two live recordings with Nilsson but they had cut this scene in half in both versions so I can't use them. Why would they cut this scene with so much gorgeous music? To try and give Turandot less taxing music to sing? The opera isn't that long so it can't be for brevity.


I seem to recall listening to a recording with the score and discovering there was a cut towards the end. Perhaps a tradition of getting rid of as much Alfano as possible came in.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I seem to recall listening to a recording with the score and discovering there was a cut towards the end. Perhaps a tradition of getting rid of as much Alfano as possible came in.


I think it's time to embrace the fact that the final scene of _Turandot_ is a hybrid product by two composers, give the very skilled Alfano his due, and perform the whole thing as Alfano left it. There isn't a poor bar of music in it, the ending is simply super-duper, and we get the added benefit of having more time to forget about Liu (RIP).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I think it's time to embrace the fact that the final scene of _Turandot_ is a hybrid product by two composers, give the very skilled Alfano his due, and perform the whole thing as Alfano left it. There isn't a poor bar of music in it, the ending is simply super-duper, and we get the added benefit of having more time to forget about Liu (RIP).


My friend Ellen is a good gauge at how good the music is as she has good instincts even if she is no opera scholar. She thought the end of Turandot was one of the most exciting things I've ever played for her and was getting chills. She is my reward for something as when you play music for most people they like it but seldom ever wax eloquent or CARE about the music like you do if you are passionate like I am and thankgod she is as well. I imagine it is a whole other level of difficulty if you are seriously into Callas as many of you are in finding people who can see all of the details she brings out in the music that others don't notice or care. For so much of my life my love of opera was such an isolated pleasure it is so nice to have online friends who are passionate about it as well even when they come at it from another perspective.


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