# Musical coincidences, both suspicious and innocent.



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Here is the thread to talk about things you've heard in pieces that sound exactly the same, whether they are innocent coincidences or even just remind you of another piece, or whether plagiarism seems likely. Thread inspired by brief discussion with Herlocksholmes in his thread about Beethoven plagiarizing Mozart, which is a good example for what I'm thinking of here.

So, I'll start by mentioning one that is commonly known as a quote of Clementi's by Mozart. Clementi's famous B flat sonata is quote in the overture to The Magic Flute.

Sorry, I've been saying Marriage of Figaro, but I meant the Magic Flute.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

And I'll start with the following 3 fugues:

Fugue in A minor from Bach's WTC 2 (1742):





Handel's And With His Stripes We Are Healed from The Messiah (1741):





Mozart's Kyrie Fugue from the Requiem (1791):





Was this a common musical theme that was used at the time or something? Anyone know anything about it?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm not sure "pieces" refers to popular songs, but anyway:

The third movement of William Grant Still's Afro-American Symphony is either quoting I Got Rhythm or I Got Rhythm is quoting the Afro-American Symphony, or it's a concidence. I don't think anyone knows for sure. 

In Erik Satie's Sports et Divertissements, "Golf" has a melody which later became Tea for Two; again, probably a concidence.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

HerlockSholmes said:


> Was this a common musical theme that was used at the time or something? Anyone know anything about it?


It's also the subject of the fourth movement of Haydn's Quartet 20, No. 5.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

And here is some obscure Mozart piece (listen to it at exactly 1:00) :
[video=youtube;lEBYufTXJQk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEBYufTXJQk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/url][/video]

And Beethoven's famous Ode to Joy theme: I don't think I need to provide a link.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Clementi




Mozart Magic Flute Overture, the Clementi theme comes up later


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

How do you make those types of links? (Sorry, I'm new to this whole forum thing).


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Also at 5:05 in Rossini's Overture to Semiramide, you hear a rhythmic broken variant of the theme found in Clementi and Mozart


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> How do you make those types of links? (Sorry, I'm new to this whole forum thing).


At the top of your quick reply window, there should be a symbol that looks like a roll of film. Scroll over it with your mouse to confirm, it should say "insert video" and then click on it and enter the URL.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> At the top of your quick reply window, there should be a symbol that looks like a roll of film. Scroll over it with your mouse to confirm, it should say "insert video" and then click on it and enter the URL.


Thanks!
This reply apparently has to be longer than 10 characters, so I'm just adding extra words here.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Here is an innocent similarity of a less significant theme to a main one:

Tchaikovsky violin concerto at 1:48





When I first heard that, I was reminded of Til Eulenspiegel, the horn theme at :17, something about it


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> It's also the subject of the fourth movement of Haydn's Quartet 20, No. 5.


This is what Manxfeeder is talking about:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> This is what Manxfeeder is talking about:


Herlock, I have to ask you, what is your experience with Haydn so far?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Isn't this just a wonderful use of Tchaikovsky?


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Herlock, I have to ask you, what is your experience with Haydn so far?


Not bad, I guess. I've found a few fugues and other good works by Haydn, although it _is_ somewhat difficult to find pieces that I like among all of those hundreds of symphonies and string quartets. It's like a giant maze and most of them are too "Classical" for my taste to begin with. Of course, I have no doubt he was a great composer. I just probably haven't looked in the right places yet.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> Not bad, I guess. I've found a few fugues and other good works by Haydn, although it _is_ somewhat difficult to find pieces that I like among all of those hundreds of symphonies and string quartets. It's like a giant maze and most of them are too "Classical" for my taste to begin with. Of course, I have no doubt he was a great composer. I just probably haven't looked in the right places yet.


Your best luck is perhaps to be had in the piano sonatas and the string quartets if you are looking for less conventionally classical, although there are some highly contrapuntal symphony movements I'd recommend, mostly early ones. They still are very light, but I am a huge fan. And how about CPE Bach?


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> Not bad, I guess. I've found a few fugues and other good works by Haydn, although it _is_ somewhat difficult to find pieces that I like among all of those hundreds of symphonies and string quartets. It's like a giant maze and most of them are too "Classical" for my taste to begin with. Of course, I have no doubt he was a great composer. I just probably haven't looked in the right places yet.


Lord Nelson Mass is probably his best work along with the Creation Oratorio. Loads of enjoyable symphonies and string quartets as well. I'd say he composed fewer individual masterpieces than other well known composers but I admire him for his large number of very original works of a consistently high standard. I guess this makes it kind of hard to get started though.

Try these:


















But really any of his later symphonies, SQs and masses are safe bets.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

When hearing Chopin's Etude no. 9 from op. 25 the first couple of times, I couldn't help but instantly think of the opening phrases of the 3rd movement from Beethoven's 25th piano sonata. Don't know if there's any sort of actual connection other than 'coincidental' ones..


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

I don't know if you guys knew about this or not, but here's another interesting video:


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Your best luck is perhaps to be had in the piano sonatas and the string quartets if you are looking for less conventionally classical, although there are some highly contrapuntal symphony movements I'd recommend, mostly early ones. They still are very light, but I am a huge fan. And how about CPE Bach?


I dislike most of CPE with the exception of his two lonely fugues.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

jalex said:


> Lord Nelson Mass is probably his best work along with the Creation Oratorio. Loads of enjoyable symphonies and string quartets as well. I'd say he composed fewer individual masterpieces than other well known composers but I admire him for his large number of very original works of a consistently high standard. I guess this makes it kind of hard to get started though.
> 
> Try these:
> 
> ...


What is your opinion on Joseph's brother, Michael Haydn? I find his Requiem to be a truly amazing piece and I've discovered many more fugues by Michael than by Joseph.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

In Beethoven's Symphony No. 7, movement 4, a brief motive (in this video starting around 2:00 minutes):






is almost identical to the opening of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5:






I had once asked on these forums if this was intentional, but I don't think anyone knew. I'm looking for time to watch the Keeping Score documentary of the Shostakovich 5th, to see if Michael Tilson Thomas mentions any connection.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

You can find more Beethoven in Shostakovich. This is the last movement from his last work. The Beethoven reference starts at 1:09. I don't think I need to post the Beethoven piece.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Here's one that spans the centuries. First of all, From Mendelssohn's Piano Concerto in G minor, second movement. Start at 0:47.






Then Bette Midler's song "The Rose".

The theme starts at 0:07 if you don't want to wait.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> I dislike most of CPE with the exception of his two lonely fugues.


You have to be more careful of saying "most of" I think, since you probably haven't heard most of this composer, very few people have. What about WF? Did you ever listen to his adagio and fugue I posted?


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Here's an intentional quotation. First of all, Richard Strauss' Metamorphosen for 23 strings. The section starts at 0:36, but there are other allusions to the Funeral March from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony.






And the original. Strauss wrote Metamorphosen as a Requiem for German culture, after the Munich opera house was bombed during WWII.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> You have to be more careful of saying "most of" I think, since you probably haven't heard most of this composer, very few people have. What about WF? Did you ever listen to his adagio and fugue I posted?


Yes, I loved the adagio and fugue by WF. I'm currently hunting and discovering more of WF's fugues and compositions.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> Yes, I loved the adagio and fugue by WF. I'm currently hunting and discovering more of WF's fugues and compositions.


If you play keyboard, I recommend his keyboard sonatas and his polonaises. Its harder to find a recording of the sonatas, but the polonaises are out there.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Here's one from the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony. A piece of homage, starting at 6:46.






If you couldn't quite place the original, here it is, starting at 1:51.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I won't play the famous folk song that reflects this piece... but start at 0:59 and you'll get a perfect 8 bars of it. _Poet and Peasant_ was written in 1846, and the other song made an anthology that was printed in 1894.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Brahms Piano Sonata No.3 (1:22)





sounds like...





which sounds like...(3:10)





Weber's Clarinet Concerto No.1 2nd movement (at 10:00) is directly quoted in opening of Brahms' Clarinet Quintet as an homage. It serves as the main thematic idea of the work.





Weber's theme appears at 0:08. The main theme gets cut shorter and shorter with each reappearance, and eventually shatters at the end of the first movement (8:27).


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Debussy quotes the opening of Tristan and Isolde in his Golliwogg's Cakewalk at 1:12 - 1:20. And it's not because he likes it.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The opening of Mozart's Requiem sounds very similar to Michal Haydn's Requiem (et lux perpetuum is a direct quote), and the opening melody phrase is from Handel's The Ways of Zion Do Mourn (at 1:10). The references are intentional.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Listen to the opening of Chopin's Nocturne no. 15 and then the opening of Brahms Intermezzo no. 7 from op. 76. It's basically a simple variation.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I can see a similarity. Both pretty lame performances, though.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

I believe Brahms was editing Chopin's music at the time he was writing the Op.76 set.

The 2nd movement of Rachmaninoff's Piano Trio No.2 (3:40) quotes the 2nd movement of Tchaikovsky's Piano Trio.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Michael Haydn's Domine Jesu fugue from his Requiem (starts at 2:50) :





Mozart's Domine Jesu fugue from his Requiem (starts at 2:00) :


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Rachmaninoff reminded me of an egregious ripoff. First of all, from the slow movement of his Second Symphony:






and from the much less than immortal Eric Carmen, starting at 0:48. It's always worse when you've heard the bad pop-song ripoff before you've heard the original.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think anyone's mentioned this one. Two great composers, two great piano concertos in C minor:


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Compare Bach's G minor Fantasia:





To Mozart's F minor Fantasia:


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Here's one that a lot of people miss: the opening melody of Brahms' Third is a loose variation on the opening melody of Schumann's Third. It's interesting, also, to note that the main key for each of Brahms's symphonies is always two semitones above the key of Schumann's. So:

Symphony No. 1 in B flat (Schumann) --> B natural --> c (Brahms)
Symphony No. 2 in C (Schumann) --> C sharp --> D (Brahms)
Symphony No. 3 in E flat (Schumann) --> E natural --> F (Brahms)
Symphony No. 4 in d (Schumann) --> D sharp --> e (Brahms)

I don't know what Brahms was trying to signify by this.

Another allusion, which I'm not the first person to notice: compare this with this (listen for about 15 seconds each).


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I've noticed more of Brahms's allusions/models since I made that post, but I'm too lazy to list them right now. Instead, what about this really weird one in Schubert:











Am I just imagining this?

Edit: Especially 8:30 onwards in the Schubert video.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

There was one that I noticed a few months ago (I even thought about posting it on these forums!), but for the life of me I can't remember what it was now lol.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In the first movement of Schuman's Rhenish symphony , the composer unwittingly anticipates the main theme of the first movement of the Brahms 3rd. . This is just in passing . I don't know if Brahms consciously used this as a theme.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Wagner blatantly plagarised bits of Liszt's Christus - especially the Tristis Est Anima mea movement, for Parsifal. He also took bits from Liszt's cantata - The Bells of Strasbourg Cathedral.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

That 14 minutes is boring enough to be longer than the entire first act of Parsifal... care to highlight specific times of plagiarism? It has a similar flavour and perhaps Wagner did build off it, but unless you consider taking Liszt's mediocre meanderings and turning them into masterpieces plagiarism, I see none here.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

I'll be honest - I don't know Parsifal well enough to state specific times. I'm just going off what i've read - from very reliable sources mind you (I only THINK it's the Tristis movement, but I need to listen to Parsifal more). That being said, 'Christus' is NOT 'mediocre meanderings,' but rather a true masterpiece in its own right. I'm not having a shot at Wagner at all - i've started getting into him lately - especially Tristan - and I know I will grow to love him, but it is well documented that Wagner stole or borrowed from Liszt on numerous occasions.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I wouldn't say "stole", but Wagner was definitely inspired by Liszt and has a lot to thank him for (and vice-versa, ie. Wagner banging his daughter and all).


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Just realized I wrote that sounding like Liszt should be thanking Wagner for banging his daughter. Wasn't my intention. But now that it's there, I like it.


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## Ellyll (Apr 7, 2012)

The central theme to Smetana's "Vlatava" ("Moldau") is from a very old theme, dating to at least the 16th century, and possibly older.

It's first known publication was in 1600 and attributed to Giuseppe Cenci as "la Montovana", although some believe it might have been older still, deriving from the Renaissance, or even Medieval Europe.

It has been widely used over the years, in many countries. This includes "Ack Värmeland" (Sweden), My Mistress is Prettie (Scotland), Kateryna Kucheryava (Ukraine), Hatikvah (Israeli Nat. Anthem), among others.

I only put video tags around the first two, as I could literally fill and entire page with just videos of pieces containing, or influenced by, this theme.

La Montovana:





Vlatava (The Moldau):





Ack Värmeland:





My Mistress is Prettie:





Kateryna Kucheryava:





Hatikvah:


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

*Hungarian Dances by Brahms*

Quotation from Wikipedia:

"Hungarian Dance ... No. 5 in F# minor (G minor in the orchestral version)... was based on the csárdás by Kéler Béla titled "Bártfai emlék" which Brahms mistakenly thought was a traditional folksong."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Dances_(Brahms)


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Couchie said:


> That 14 minutes is boring enough to be longer than the entire first act of Parsifal... care to highlight specific times of plagiarism? It has a similar flavour and perhaps Wagner did build off it, but unless you consider taking Liszt's mediocre meanderings and turning them into masterpieces plagiarism, I see none here.


http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/10/christus-parsifal.html

Why does everything have to be sui generis to be great or even the greatest? Don't be so insecure. There are remarkable similarities in melody and orchestration.

Shakespeare didn't invent the iambic pentameter or Elizabethan theater, and Sophocles didn't invent the Greek language.

http://books.google.com/books?id=be...szt: The Bells of Strasbourg parsifal&f=false

Bach took the theme from his Musical Offering from someone else too; it was given to him.






The theme for Parsifal is identical in the first five (?) notes, afterwards the similarities stop.

Liszt was a definite influence on Wagner in many ways, there's no need to deny that; it doesn't detract from his originality. Remember, *J.C. * Bach was a huge influence on Mozart.

Wagner also used the Dresden Amen in Parsifal, the same theme was also used in Mendlessohn's fifth symphony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_amen

It's not the beauty of the melody that matters, but what you do with it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/10/christus-parsifal.html
> 
> Why does everything have to be sui generis to be great or even the greatest? Don't be so insecure. There are remarkable similarities in melody and orchestration.
> 
> ...


Right, but the accusation was plagiarism, not inspiration. I've already acknowledged the latter.


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## KThreeSixFour (Sep 16, 2011)

Villa-Lobos - Bachianas Brasileiras No. 2 (from 1:03 to 1:53)





Kansas - Dust In The Wind


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## Debussydude (Apr 14, 2012)

I believe that Holst's Planets Suite (Mars) is partly borrowed from Debussy's La Mer (third movement).


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

The opening theme of Trout Quintet






sounds like Haydn's Lark Quartet


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