# Netrebko to do Salome?



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

According to a brief item on Norman Lebrecht's blog, Peter Gelb has said that Anna Netrebko will be doing Salome ... ooooooooooooook! Taking up Aida or Lohengin is one thing but Salome?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

The God will help us. For sure…


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> According to a brief item on Norman Lebrecht's blog, Peter Gelb has said that Anna Netrebko will be doing Salome ... ooooooooooooook! Taking up Aida or Lohengin is one thing but Salome?


To my ear, Netrebko has always been an "almost" or "yes but" singer; fine in Russian opera, she seems almost but not quite at home in other repertoire. But a Salome could be interesting. Her interpretive ideas are generalized and her voice has become rather dark and heavy, but Strauss's busy orchestra and word-laden vocal lines may expose her weaknesses less than Aida, where I'm afraid she presents a photoshopped imitation of the real thing.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

No. There's no way that woman can sing German convincingly. 

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Now, now, boys and girls. Let's give Anna a chance. She might look nice with seven veils - or without them.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Now, now, boys and girls. Let's give Anna a chance. *She might look nice with seven veils - or without them.*


She is definitely a very interesting woman.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

"Mme. Netrebko's histrionic, vocal, and language abilities as Salome were perfunctory, but she danced 4 minutes of the two-hour opera beautifully."

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

On today's episode of "Why Fach Is Important".....


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

The old saw is that writing about music is like dancing about architecture. I am getting to where I would prefer Her Nebs to dance about singing. The recent Aida just confirmed that. And while I'm on a roll, let's be sure and get Zejlko Lucic in there (insert random diacritical markings on most letters) to scowl his way through another baritone role with some undistinguished singing.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Barelytenor said:


> The old saw is that writing about music is like dancing about architecture. I am getting to where I would prefer Her Nebs to dance about singing. The recent Aida just confirmed that. And while I'm on a roll, let's be sure and get Zejlko Lucic in there (insert random diacritical markings on most letters) to scowl his way through another baritone role with some undistinguished singing.
> 
> Kind regards, :tiphat:
> 
> George


I was wondering if I was the only one who feels that way about Lucic lol


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I was wondering if I was the only one who feels that way about Lucic lol


You are not alone.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Where are the great baritones of yesteryear? Tibbett, Warren, Bastianini, Merrill, is this the best the Met can do?

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Now, now, boys and girls. Let's give Anna a chance. She might look nice with seven veils - or without them.


Not to be too catty, but that's not a big selling point for Netrebko any more.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Not to be too catty, but that's not a big selling point for Netrebko any more.


Just remember Caballe in the part and be grateful.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Just remember Caballe in the part and be grateful.


I only know Caballe's audio recording of the opera, am I missing something? 

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Barelytenor said:


> Where are the great baritones of yesteryear? Tibbett, Warren, Bastianini, Merrill, is this the best the Met can do?
> 
> Kind regards, :tiphat:
> 
> George


I am still mourning what seems to be the death of the dramatic baritone. Ruffo, Tibbet, Gobbi and Milnes were the crème de la crème (IMO), but we don't have anyone who can approach Stracciari, De Luca, Warren, Merrill, Bastianini, Panerai or Bruson. I'd probably prefer to hear some of the Met 20th century comprimarios rather than the mostly lacklustre baritones we have today in Verdi or Wagner.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I am still mourning what seems to be the death of the dramatic baritone. Ruffo, Tibbet, Gobbi and Milnes were the crème de la crème (IMO), but we don't have anyone who can approach Stracciari, De Luca, Warren, Merrill, Bastianini, Panerai or Bruson


Try Peter Mattei.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I am still mourning what seems to be the death of the dramatic baritone. Ruffo, Tibbet, Gobbi and Milnes were the crème de la crème (IMO), but we don't have anyone who can approach Stracciari, De Luca, Warren, Merrill, Bastianini, Panerai or Bruson. I'd probably prefer to hear some of the Met 20th century comprimarios rather than the mostly lacklustre baritones we have today in Verdi or Wagner.
> 
> N.


I'm not sure whether we're any poorer in great dramatic baritones than we are in great dramatic anything else, but when you look at the record of singing in the 20th century you have to wonder. A couple of seasons ago I heard on a Met broadcast an impressive Hungarian baritone named Levente Molnar singing Marcello in La Boheme. He was the best singer in the cast and the best sounding baritone I'd heard in a long time. He's 36, so I hope we get to hear more of him on this side of the Atlantic.

I greatly admire Peter Mattei's singing and dramatic art, but his voice isn't especially large or ringing.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not sure whether we're any poorer in great dramatic baritones than we are in great dramatic anything else, but when you look at the record of singing in the 20th century you have to wonder. A couple of seasons ago I heard on a Met broadcast an impressive Hungarian baritone named Levente Molnar singing Marcello in La Boheme. He was the best singer in the cast and the best sounding baritone I'd heard in a long time. He's 36, so I hope we get to hear more of him on this side of the Atlantic.
> 
> I greatly admire Peter Mattei's singing and dramatic art, but his voice isn't especially large or ringing.


It's big enough for Mattei to be a superb Amfortas and Wolfram--in my mind, the greatest on record.

edit - well, not literally "on record" since I don't think he's recorded these performances. But he can be seen on video and in captured internet radio streams.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This kinda talk gives me a deja vu. I can remember similar negative discussions about Callas and Sutherland


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> It's big enough for Mattei to be a superb Amfortas and Wolfram--in my mind, the greatest on record.


He's also fantastic as Posa on the Naxos recording of Don Carlo.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Try Peter Mattei.


He's a true lyric baritone though, is he not?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> He's a true lyric baritone though, is he not?


Yes, Mattei manages certain dramatic parts very well and is a fine artist, but he's been very careful about what roles he takes on and has wisely avoided most Verdi and Wagner. He's really a lyric baritone like Bryn Terfel (who has less wisely been singing Wotan). The difference between Mattei's slender voice and that of a true dramatic baritone (or "Verdi baritone,"if you like that sort of terminology) is obvious from some side-by-side comparisons with some of the singers listed by The Conte. Try this:






as against this:






or my personal gold standard in Verdi:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I only know Caballe's audio recording of the opera, am I missing something?
> 
> N.


Nothing you want to see.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

To comment on the OP. 

Poor, poor Salome! She really deserves better. 

Incidentally, in the U.K. when you say you're going to "do" someone, it can mean that you are going to give them a right kicking. Hence my comment!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Incidentally, in the U.K. when you say you're going to "do" someone, it can mean that you are going to give them a right kicking.


Funny, in the U.S. it can mean something entirely different.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

amfortas said:


> Funny, in the U.S. it can mean something entirely different.


Also in my part of the UK.

N.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

amfortas said:


> Funny, in the U.S. it can mean something entirely different.


As The Conte said, it has the alternate meaning too!

In this instance either would be (in)appropriate!!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> As The Conte said, it has the alternate meaning too!


That's why I figured I didn't have to spell it out.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

To be honest, I never really understand the Trebs hate online. She's not historically great or anything but she's got a lovely voice, particularly her rich, plush bottom (I'm talking about the voice, folks). Her top is a little strained and veering ever closer to being a wobble, and obviously her appetite for trying new roles often exceeds her abilities. But I prefer opera stars who ambitiously try more than they can handle and wisely cancel those they can't, rather than those who just do the same 4 roles over and over (looking at you, Gheorghiu).

Is it that she used to be hot and she used to be marketed for her hotness? Online posters seem to primarily hate (1) women performers who are overly hot, and (2) women performers who are insufficiently hot. It's a tough world out there for women on stages.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> *To be honest, I never really understand the Trebs hate online.* She's not historically great or anything but she's got a lovely voice, particularly her rich, plush bottom (I'm talking about the voice, folks). Her top is a little strained and veering ever closer to being a wobble, and obviously her appetite for trying new roles often exceeds her abilities. But I prefer opera stars who ambitiously try more than they can handle and wisely cancel those they can't, rather than those who just do the same 4 roles over and over (looking at you, Gheorghiu).
> 
> Is it that she used to be hot and she used to be marketed for her hotness? Online posters seem to primarily hate (1) women performers who are overly hot, and (2) women performers who are insufficiently hot. It's a tough world out there for women on stages.


Let's face it, people especially in Classical music tend to hate other people who are successful, especially when they're good looking. I know she's not quite the hottie she once was but still quite a looker as far as opera goes anyway! Recently saw her in Aida and before that Lady Macbeth. Gave really good performances. So hate away guys!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> To be honest, I never really understand the Trebs hate online. She's not historically great or anything but she's got a lovely voice, particularly her rich, plush bottom (I'm talking about the voice, folks). Her top is a little strained and veering ever closer to being a wobble, and obviously her appetite for trying new roles often exceeds her abilities. But I prefer opera stars who ambitiously try more than they can handle and wisely cancel those they can't, rather than those who just do the same 4 roles over and over (looking at you, Gheorghiu).
> 
> Is it that she used to be hot and she used to be marketed for her hotness? Online posters seem to primarily hate (1) women performers who are overly hot, and (2) women performers who are insufficiently hot. It's a tough world out there for women on stages.


Some singers only get cast in a few roles and therefore get masters in those roles.

Anna Netrebko is not bad at all I recently heard he in Adriana Lecouvreur nothing wrong there. But for Annas I prefer Anna Sohn and Anna Moffo in her prime for both looks and singing.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I am still mourning what seems to be the death of the dramatic baritone. Ruffo, Tibbet, Gobbi and Milnes were the crème de la crème (IMO), but we don't have anyone who can approach Stracciari, De Luca, Warren, Merrill, Bastianini, Panerai or Bruson. I'd probably prefer to hear some of the Met 20th century comprimarios rather than the mostly lacklustre baritones we have today in Verdi or Wagner.
> 
> N.


I had a sneaking suspicion I'd missed someone here. I forgot Battistini!!! 

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

In assessing what Netrebko is likely to be in Salome I need to take in several factors.

Of greatest importance are the innate qualities of her voice and how it has evolved since I first heard her in 1994.

In 1994 she had a voice with a somewhat bright quality with a moderate amount of weight in it. Therefore I would definitely say that she were a soprano and the regularly performed roles I would have suggested she choose from are the following:

Gluck
Alceste
Ifigenia

Mozart
Countess in Figaro
Donna Elvira
Donna Anna
Fiordiligi
Konstanze
Elettra
Vitellia

Bel canto
Rossini tragedies (the Colbran roles)
Donizetti's three queens, Lucia, Lucrezia Borgia
Bellini: Il Pirata

Verdi
Violetta
Desdemona

Puccini
Manon Lescaut
Tosca
Butterfly
Minnie

German pre-Wagnerian
Beethoven: Leonora
Weber: Agathe

Wagner
Senta
Elsa
Elisabeth
Sieglinde

Strauss
Marschallin
Ariadne
Arabella
Countess

Glinka
Lyudmila
Antonida

Tchaikovsky
Tatiana
Liza
Iolanta
Maria (in Mazeppa)

However, a singer's appropriate rep doesn't depend solely on the innate qualities of their voice, but their abilities too. Netrebko doesn't have a flexible voice that can execute coloratura well and doesn't have a feel for the German language.

Therefore I would have suggested the following roles for her when she made it big outside of Russia from about 2003 on:

Countess, Donna Elvira and Fiordiligi by Mozart (instead Anna sang Susanna); Desdemona by Verdi (she claims it is a boring role); Tatiana, Liza, Iolanta and Maria (plus some Rimsky-Korsakov and other Russian roles) [However she was quite snobby about Russian opera and insisted on giving us her bel canto. Why she wanted to parade her lack of a trill before us in anybody's guess!]

I would suggest that this is why some haven't been totally convinced by her and perhaps that's why Balalaikaboy suggests that fach plays a part here.

Getting back to the topic in hand, Netrebko's voice has darkened and is more weighty than it was and therefore there is scope for her to tackle heavier roles. Salome would be one of these in my opinion. However, I wasn't convinced by her German in Lohengrin and therefore I wonder if it will work.

*Conclusion*
Fine in theory, but her linguistic limitations as a singer make me sceptical.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I had a sneaking suspicion I'd missed someone here. I forgot *Battistini!!!*
> 
> N.


The "King of Baritones," late representative of a type of singer that no longer exists: the "bel canto baritone." His superb recordings were all made in his 50s and 60s, and their tonal consistency, dynamic control, legato, portamento, diction, freedom, elegance, swagger and joy remain object lessons in the art of singing.

The field of great baritones recorded before WW I is incredibly rich. I'd like to add to your list Giuseppe Kaschmann, Giuseppe Campanari, Oreste Benedetti, Antonio Magini-Coletti, Antonio Pini-Corsi, Pasquale Amato, Antonio Scotti, Giuseppe Bellantoni, Mario Ancona, Giuseppe de Luca, Eugenio Giraldoni, Domenico Viglione Borghese, Jean Lassalle, Jean Note, Maurice Renaud, Leon Melchissedec, Charles Gilibert, Jean Perier, Hector Dufrannne, David Bispham, and Anton van Rooy.

Almost any of these singers could wipe the floor - technically and stylistically - with most of today's top baritones. Just listen at random on YouTube to realize that there really was a "golden age" of opera. It lasted into the interwar period and more or less petered out in the 1950s.

(I realize this is a diversion from the thread, but what more can be said about Netrebko as Salome? Let's hear her and talk then.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> *Netrebko doesn't have a flexible voice that can execute coloratura well* and doesn't have a feel for the German language.


I have her in a performance of L'elise D'Amore and she executes the coloratura OK. I also heard her in Lady Macbeth and she was fine. Brought the house down. She's no Sutherland at it but who is?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I have her in a performance of L'elise D'Amore and she executes the coloratura OK. I also heard her in Lady Macbeth and she was fine. Brought the house down. She's no Sutherland at it but who is?


I also heard her in Lady Macbeth and I thought she was excellent. She was committed to the opera's drama and her vocal acting was thrilling. However the coloratura was messy where she attempted it and she missed out quite a few of the notes where she didn't. It's a shame as I'm sure she could rectify this with a bit of work.

There was only one Sutherland, but if you mean who singing today can sing coloratura well, then I would say Monastyrska or Theodossiou in the role of the Lady (although Theodossiou may be in semi-retirement now) and then there's Diana Damrau, Lisette Oropesa, Sabine Devieilhe, Audrey Luna and Patrizia Ciofi to name just a few in lighter rep. There are plenty of sopranos around who can sing coloratura.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I also heard her in Lady Macbeth and I thought she was excellent. She was committed to the opera's drama and her vocal acting was thrilling. However the coloratura was messy where she attempted it and she missed out quite a few of the notes where she didn't. It's a shame as I'm sure she could rectify this with a bit of work.
> 
> There was only one Sutherland, but if you mean who singing today can sing coloratura well, then I would say Monastyrska or Theodossiou in the role of the Lady (although Theodossiou may be in semi-retirement now) and then there's Diana Damrau, Lisette Oropesa, Sabine Devieilhe, Audrey Luna and Patrizia Ciofi to name just a few in lighter rep. *There are plenty of sopranos around who can sing coloratura.*
> 
> N.


But of course the Lady is more of a mezzo role viz Cossotto and Verett


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> But of course the Lady is more of a mezzo role viz Cossotto and Verett


There are never going to be an abundance of singers who can do the role justice and I gave examples of two who have excelled when it comes to the part's coloratura in recent times. If you have a fetish about mezzos who have mastered coloratura you have Bartoli, DiDonato, Semenchuk, Daniela Barcellona and Jennifer Larmore is still singing (and did Lady Macbeth in Zurich recently). Joan Sutherland was not the last singer with a flexible voice, no matter how extraordinarily amazing her vocal makeup was (and she didn't sing the Lady either).

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> There are never going to be an abundance of singers who can do the role justice and I gave examples of two who have excelled when it comes to the part's coloratura in recent times. *If you have a fetish about mezzos *who have mastered coloratura you have Bartoli, DiDonato, Semenchuk, Daniela Barcellona and Jennifer Larmore is still singing (and did Lady Macbeth in Zurich recently). Joan Sutherland was not the last singer with a flexible voice, no matter how extraordinarily amazing her vocal makeup was (and she didn't sing the Lady either).
> 
> N.


I can assure you I have no fetish around mezzos! :lol:


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

In answer to Le Conte's question "am I missing something" 

Caballe - Kinda hard to miss at that size!


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

howlingfantods said:


> To be honest, I never really understand the Trebs hate online. She's not historically great or anything but she's got a lovely voice, particularly her rich, plush bottom (I'm talking about the voice, folks).


Well, you don't hire sopranos for their rich, plush bottoms (I'm talking about the voice, folks).

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Just remember Caballe in the part and be grateful.


Some considered her vocally one of the finest interpreters of the role. I believe she sang offstage while a dancer interpreted the part on stage. Otherwise 30 veils would be needed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Some considered her vocally one of the finest interpreters of the role. I believe she sang offstage while a dancer interpreted the part on stage. Otherwise 30 veils would be needed.


There is no singing during Salome's dance.

See 59:50 here:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Some considered her vocally one of the finest interpreters of the role. I believe she sang offstage while a dancer interpreted the part on stage. Otherwise 30 veils would be needed.


She only sang the role when less large. Behrens sang it on stage for Karajan but never danced. Takes a pretty special artists to do both


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> There is no singing during Salome's dance.
> 
> See 59:50 here:


Well, if you haven't the _physique du rôle_, maybe it is better to perform the dance as above. I saw Gwyneth Jones as Salome at Covent Garden, already quite late in her career, and she stripped down to a very ill fitting body stocking. Disbelief was no longer suspended, I'm afraid.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Well, if you haven't the _physique du rôle_, maybe it is better to perform the dance as above. I saw Gwyneth Jones as Salome at Covent Garden, already quite late in her career, and she stripped down to a very ill fitting body stocking. Disbelief was no longer suspended, I'm afraid.


The problem is that the role requires a mature singer voice wise but she has to act as a 16 year-old girl


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The problem is that the role requires a mature singer voice wise but she has to act as a 16 year-old girl


No problem for the likes of Teresa Stratas or Maria Ewing.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> No problem for the likes of Teresa Stratas or Maria Ewing.


I read that Stratas never sang the role on the stage - just for the film, which was dubbed.Unable to attend the main sessions, Stratas overdubbed the entire part. Ewing performed it on stage in Peter Hall's production.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I read that Stratas never sang the role on the stage - just for the film, which was dubbed.Unable to attend the main sessions, Stratas overdubbed the entire part. Ewing performed it on stage in Peter Hall's production.


I don't think Stratas did sing it on stage, but her Salome in the film is superb, and she suffers not one bit from the close ups. Ewing did, as you say, sing it in Peter Hall's Covent Garden production, famously stripping completely nude in the dance.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> There is no singing during Salome's dance.
> 
> See 59:50 here:


No, for the whole role. I don't know if she lipsynched. A drag queen could have pulled that off with enough drugs. https://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/13/arts/opera-salome-in-milan-staged-by-robert-wilson.html Caballe was very mature at this point In 59, when she first did it, she was normal sized and could be believable onstage. It is amazing to see how relatively slender she was when she is in peak form vocally. If Caballe in her prime were around today, I bet there would not be such a buzz about Netrebko, who sings the same repertoire but not so well. Of course, Netrebko looks much better in videos.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't think Stratas did sing it on stage, but her Salome in the film is superb, and she suffers not one bit from the close ups. Ewing did, as you say, sing it in Peter Hall's Covent Garden production, famously stripping completely nude in the dance.


I have the DVD with Stratas and she is completely believable as a frustrated, horny, spoiled postpubescent teenager who has always gotten her way. Only in some of the highest-volume bits is there some stress in the voice but overall her vocal and dramatic technique are superb.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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