# Why doesn't Boulez like Barraqué ?



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Apparently Boulez thinks there's something not well composed about Barraqué's music. But I don't know what he's getting at.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Boulez's attacks on other composers, while they may bear grains of truth if we are honest, tend to be political in nature. If he has no time for this composer or that piece, it's likely because they don't subscribe to or display an affinity for his ideology. I don't know what he has said about Barraqué, but the reasoning behind it probably falls in line with this trend. He has mellowed out considerably since Darmstadt, but his comments from that era are prolific and widely known, more so than than his more recent revisions (e.g.: Messiaen's _Turangalîla_ went from being "brothel music" to being "not my cup of tea") probably because it's more fun to read people calling each other giftless ******** à la Tchaikovsky than it is to read people being nice to each other.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

A lot of this stuff has more to do with personalities than tastes. We often don't know what one composer really think about another, simply because the former keeps it to himself (or is too polite).

Regardless, what was Boulez' gripe about Barraqué? What is the source of this?


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## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

I was not aware that he had disliked Barraqué's music. Source? 


BTW, if by any chance this is a satirical spin off on my thread (and excuse me if it's not), you're best served by saying things outright. If you feel dissatisfied, state your reasons - maybe we can come to an agreement.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> I was not aware that he had disliked Barraqué's music. Source?
> 
> BTW, if by any chance this is a satirical spin off on my thread (and excuse me if it's not), you're best served by saying things outright. If you feel dissatisfied, state your reasons - maybe we can come to an agreement.


It came from this discussion on the web, where a contributor (M J Walker) says



> Yes, I know most of Barraqué's small oeuvre. Interestingly, Boulez now dismisses this music by a former colleague (who died suddenly in '73), claiming it is not properly composed as sound - he is of course notoriously finicky in these matters. But the Ba piano sonata, though starkly forbidding, is more remarkable to my dilettante ears than the Bo #2. And while I have a certain difficulty with the vocal works based on Broch's Tod des Vergil, the late clarinet concerto is a stunning masterpiece which wipes out anything of that kind since Mozart, in my opinion - I would recommend the HMF Musique d'Abord CD with that & the Broch-based Le Temps restituée as the essential Ba CD.


If you google the quote you'll find it.

Maybe I've fallen into the trap of believing everything I read!

It wasn't a satirical spin, but seeing your thread gave me the idea to create this one.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The few pieces by Barraque I listened to did not do much at all to impress me either.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Perhaps Boulez didn't mean what he said? Maybe he was just trying to be provocative?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> The few pieces by Barraque I listened to did not do much at all to impress me either.


If you could say a bit more about why not that might be interesting.

I listened to the clarinet concerto last night and I was impressed by the coherence and unity of it, making Boulez's alleged "not properly composed as sound" all the more mysterious. It's wonderful music IMO which has, for me, really rewarded relistening, because it's challenging, disorienting.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

About the Barraque sonata, I remeber reading that Boulez thought it was something he had already done in his work. After that, maybe a role in his distaste has to do with the fact that in Barraque's music there's often a tragic (and so a romantic) side. But it's just a supposition.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> It came from this discussion on the web, where a contributor (M J Walker) says
> 
> If you google the quote you'll find it.
> 
> ...


I liked it better when it was a satirical spin.

Oh well, they can't take Macy's and Gimbel's away from me at least.


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## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

some guy said:


> I liked it better when it was a satirical spin.
> 
> Oh well, they can't take Macy's and Gimbel's away from me at least.


Hahahahaha :lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

My guess is based on what I've read about Barraque. After the other composers of his generation had 'moved on,' Barraque stayed back in hard-core serialism. I think there was something about serialism, and its ability to create a kind of chaos, that appealed to Barraque's romantic, fatalistic outlook, and his preoccupation with death and darkness.

From Wiki:

_Barraqué was involved in a car accident in 1964, and his apartment was destroyed by fire in November 1968.[SUP][/SUP] He suffered from bad health for much of his life. Nevertheless his death in Paris in August 1973, at the age of 45, was sudden and unexpected...
Barraqué's use of tone rows in his work is quite distinctive. Rather than using a single tone row for an entire piece, as Anton Webern did, or using a number of related rows in one work, as Alban Berg or Arnold Schoenberg sometimes did, Barraqué starts by using one row, and then subtly alters it to get a second. This second row is then used for a while before being slightly altered again to make a third. This process continues throughout the work. He called this technique "proliferating series".[SUP]
[/SUP]Harry Halbreich has written that "Barraqué's whole work is marked by terrible despair, lightened by no religious or ideological faith, and entirely dominated by the great shadow of Death".
_
Barraque's over-the top, emotive, Romantic qualities might have repulsed the cool, objective Boulez; also, Barraque's refusal to 'move forward' and 'evolve the serial technique' might have also repelled Boulez. I read that Barraque used the serial row technique in his own way, and maybe too arbitrarily for Boulez; not unlike the way Berg would use it, such as making new rows by choosing every other note of a row. Barraque did similar things, like using a row, then altering only one note to create the next row, and so on. I have the feeling that Boulez was looking for more substantial "general principles" to expand the language. Boulez was even critical of Babbitt, for god's sake.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't think it's right to call Barraqué a romantic, just because there's no concolation. In that respect I don't think he's very dofferent from Boulez.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Perhaps Boulez was simply envious of Barraqué's abilities as a composer. Sort of like Boulez's feelings concerning Tchaikovsky, whom _we_ all know was a pretty good composer.

I happen to have the cpo 3-disc set "Jean Barraqué's Oeuvres completes" and I access it quite regularly. In fact, I'm listening to the Concerto over headphones as I type this. I always enjoy Barraqué's music, much more than I do that of Boulez. I'm not surprised the guy would take a swipe at Barraqué; I have long considered Boulez rather petty in character.

I do listen to Boulez's music on occasion (I remain a fan of modern/contemporary music), but I always couple my listening of a Boulez work with one by Tchaikovsky. It's my way of protesting Boulez's comment about the Russian master, who remains one composer whom I find inescapable. Tchaikovsky, after all, brought me into classical music. He shall always hold a cherished place in my heart. My desert island plays music by Tchaikovsky, but not necessarily music by Boulez.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think it's neat the way silence gradually creeps in to the Sonata, gradually taking it over. A good metaphor for death.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> I don't think it's right to call Barraqué a romantic, just because there's no concolation. In that respect I don't think he's very dofferent from Boulez.


Well, compared to Boulez, Mr. Spock is a romantic. R2D2 is a romantic. The robot on "Lost In Space" is a romantic.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Well, compared to Boulez, Mr. Spock is a romantic. R2D2 is a romantic. The robot on "Lost In Space" is a romantic.


It's a separate discussion really, but I think there are plenty of pieces by Boulez which are dripping with emotion, or at least can be played like that. But it's true that there's a large chunk of Boulez which is pedagogic, and is often played in a boring and academic way.

Another aspect of this which interests me is that romantic music is tied up with consolation, and IMO is hence a lie. But again, a different discussion really.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I think it's neat the way silence gradually creeps in to the Sonata, gradually taking it over. A good metaphor for death.


Yes. I thought that those pauses were something that Herbert Henck was very good with.

I need to at some point brace myself to read Death of Virgil -- I've tried twice, once in English and once in French, and failed. But I really have an intuition that knowing what Broch felt about the meaning of life would help me get my head round what Barraque's up to. And anyway the Broch is probably a masterpiece -- maybe you have to read German to appreciate it, I don't know.

The sonata is, by the way, a very early piece, and I have a feeling that I read somewhere that later on Barraque was a bit dismissive of it.

I'll just mention, in case the Baraque freaks haven't already discovered it, the new recording of Chant apres Chant with Robert McCormick and Jamie Jordan. Well worth seeking out even if you have already the one on CPO.


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## XEC (Mar 3, 2017)

Barraqué by all accounts had an extremely difficult personality. Roger Woodward writes in a text that can be found in the CD with his recording of the sonata about this. He also mentions a peculiar anecdote between Boulez and Barraqué. If we avoid criticism of Boulez as a composer (I personally think that some of his music is actually sensuous, specially when he uses wind instruments, harps etc) one has to accept that he was a world class conductor. Well, Woodward writes the anecdote that once during friendlier times, Boulez was conducting a piece by Barraqué, who happened to be present, and that apparently because Barraqué didn't like something of the performance he stormed up to the stage during the performance and took from all the musicians the scores and yelled "Scandal" as he left the stage..... I think that answers the question of what went down afterwards.... 

I think Boulez piano sonatas are fantastic and I would say that Barraqué's sonata, specially at the beginning, sounds like Boulez' 2nd Sonata, which was published some years earlier. I prefer by far Boulez whole musical oeuvre when compared to Barraqué's oeuvre, nevertheless there is something in Barraqué's sonata, allow me to call it an abstract continuous drama, that makes his sonata more approachable and "enjoyable" than the 3 sonatas by Boulez. The same goes for Webern and Berg when compared to their teacher, Schoenberg. All incredible, but with different sensibilities.


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## XEC (Mar 3, 2017)

*Barraqué and Boulez as per pianist Woodward*

Barraqué by all accounts had an extremely difficult personality. Roger Woodward writes in a text that can be found in the CD with his recording of the sonata about this. He also mentions a peculiar anecdote between Boulez and Barraqué. If we avoid criticism of Boulez as a composer (I personally think that some of his music is actually sensuous, specially when he uses wind instruments, harps etc) one has to accept that he was a world class conductor. Well, Woodward writes the anecdote that once during friendlier times, Boulez was conducting a piece by Barraqué, who happened to be present, and that apparently because Barraqué didn't like something of the performance he stormed up to the stage during the performance and took from all the musicians the scores and yelled "Scandal" as he left the stage..... I think that answers the question of what went down afterwards....

I think Boulez piano sonatas are fantastic and I would say that Barraqué's sonata, specially at the beginning, sounds like Boulez' 2nd Sonata, which was published some years earlier. I prefer by far Boulez whole musical oeuvre when compared to Barraqué's oeuvre, nevertheless there is something in Barraqué's sonata, allow me to call it an abstract continuous drama, that makes his sonata more approachable and "enjoyable" than the 3 sonatas by Boulez. The same goes for Webern and Berg when compared to their teacher, Schoenberg. All incredible, but with different sensibilities.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The closest Boulez ever came to anything Baroque, it was at Tiffany's.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I think Barraqué Obama liked Bach, Handel and Vivaldi.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

XEC said:


> Barraqué by all accounts had an extremely difficult personality. Roger Woodward writes in a text that can be found in the CD with his recording of the sonata about this. He also mentions a peculiar anecdote between Boulez and Barraqué. If we avoid criticism of Boulez as a composer (I personally think that some of his music is actually sensuous, specially when he uses wind instruments, harps etc) one has to accept that he was a world class conductor. Well, Woodward writes the anecdote that once during friendlier times, Boulez was conducting a piece by Barraqué, who happened to be present, and that apparently because Barraqué didn't like something of the performance he stormed up to the stage during the performance and took from all the musicians the scores and yelled "Scandal" as he left the stage..... I think that answers the question of what went down afterwards....
> 
> I think Boulez piano sonatas are fantastic and I would say that Barraqué's sonata, specially at the beginning, sounds like Boulez' 2nd Sonata, which was published some years earlier. I prefer by far Boulez whole musical oeuvre when compared to Barraqué's oeuvre, nevertheless there is something in Barraqué's sonata, allow me to call it an abstract continuous drama, that makes his sonata more approachable and "enjoyable" than the 3 sonatas by Boulez. The same goes for Webern and Berg when compared to their teacher, Schoenberg. All incredible, but with different sensibilities.


We did get it the first time,


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

XEC said:


> Barraqué by all accounts had an extremely difficult personality. Roger Woodward writes in a text that can be found in the CD with his recording of the sonata about this. He also mentions a peculiar anecdote between Boulez and Barraqué. If we avoid criticism of Boulez as a composer (I personally think that some of his music is actually sensuous, specially when he uses wind instruments, harps etc) one has to accept that he was a world class conductor. Well, Woodward writes the anecdote that once during friendlier times, Boulez was conducting a piece by Barraqué, who happened to be present, and that apparently because Barraqué didn't like something of the performance he stormed up to the stage during the performance and took from all the musicians the scores and yelled "Scandal" as he left the stage..... I think that answers the question of what went down afterwards....
> 
> I think Boulez piano sonatas are fantastic and I would say that Barraqué's sonata, specially at the beginning, sounds like Boulez' 2nd Sonata, which was published some years earlier. I prefer by far Boulez whole musical oeuvre when compared to Barraqué's oeuvre, nevertheless there is something in Barraqué's sonata, allow me to call it an abstract continuous drama, that makes his sonata more approachable and "enjoyable" than the 3 sonatas by Boulez. The same goes for Webern and Berg when compared to their teacher, Schoenberg. All incredible, but with different sensibilities.


Thanks for making that post, I've heard Woodward's sonata but I've not seen the CD. I believe that Barraqué came to talk down the sonata as a youthful work. Lately I've become more interested in the clarinet concerto. But the sonata, with its juxtapositions and its pauses, is definitely attractive and possibly very influential.

One thing I learned recently was that Barraqué moved in the same milieu as Foucault and Barthes. Someone needs to make a film about Paris St Germain (not PSG!) in the 60s and 70s and 80s.


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