# Which of these Mozart Piano Sonata cycles would you keep?



## realdealblues

I'm constantly running out of space on my old ipod (160GB Classic). I currently have 7 complete cycles of Mozart's Piano Sonatas on there and I want to cut that down. I honestly don't have a favorite. There are things I like about each of them and things I don't like about each of them. None of them are definitive for me. I currently have:

Alicia De Larrocha
Christoph Eschenbach
Daniel Barenboim (Both EMI & Deutsche Grammophon recordings)
Glenn Gould
Maria Joao Pires
Mitsuko Uchida

I will probably keep Glenn Gould's on there because I have all of his recordings on there and I like to hear his interpretations from time to time. The others are closer together in trying to keep in line with Mozart's ideals I think.

So, which recording would prefer to keep? Granted I just uncheck them in my itunes so I can always swap them in and out later if I get tired of one, but I'm just curious if you were going to choose one to keep on your ipod or mp3 player, which one would you keep? I'm kind of interested to see what the "most popular favorite" of everyone on this board would be. Thanks for any votes/replies.


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## poconoron

I would keep the Pires and Uchida.


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## Polednice

poconoron said:


> I would keep the Pires and Uchida.


What the dog said.


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## realdealblues

Thanks for the replies. They seem to be the most popular recordings, although very different from each other.


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## Vaneyes

Polednice said:


> What the dog said.


What Vampire Piggy said.


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## Pestouille

Polednice said:


> What the dog said.


What the Pig and the dog said... Seems right! Who's got a bird?

By the way throw away Barenboim emi and replace with Arrau
By the way throw away Barenboim DG and replace with Perlemuter
And some Curzon, Brendel, Haskill, Moravec, Brautigam, Serkin, Gilels, Wirssaladze and do not forget Gieseking!
Oh! I forgot the latest Kristian Bezuidenhout Vol. 3...

Mozart is too important to be handled lightly

I forgot too, if you have the DG Pires throw away and buy the Denon cycle...:devil:

Last but not the least, throw away the Apple "Hype" and buy a correct 'flac player'.... Mozart deserves it!


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## Ukko

Eschenbach would be, and in fact is, my choice.


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## realdealblues

Pestouille said:


> What the Pig and the dog said... Seems right! Who's got a bird?
> 
> By the way throw away Barenboim emi and replace with Arrau
> By the way throw away Barenboim DG and replace with Perlemuter
> And some Curzon, Brendel, Haskill, Moravec, Brautigam, Serkin, Gilels, Wirssaladze and do not forget Gieseking!
> Oh! I forgot the latest Kristian Bezuidenhout Vol. 3...
> 
> Mozart is too important to be handled lightly
> 
> I forgot too, if you have the DG Pires throw away and buy the Denon cycle...:devil:
> 
> Last but not the least, throw away the Apple "Hype" and buy a correct 'flac player'.... Mozart deserves it!


I think we need a frog and a gonzo too 

I do have the Arrau but haven't loaded it on my ipod and/or really given it the listening it deserves. I also have some of the non-full cycle recordings from others, including a few you mentioned (Curzon, Brendel, Serkin, Gilels). I do indeed have the DG Pires. I wasn't aware she had another cycle. I will have to look into that.

Lastly, I hate apple too, but until I can buy a 2TB Flac Player that is the size of my ipod, I'm afraid I'm stuck with it...lol. I listen to CD's at home but everywhere else I use the ipod.


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## realdealblues

Hilltroll72 said:


> Eschenbach would be, and in fact is, my choice.


When I first listened to the Eschenbach cycle a couple years ago, I didn't really think much of it, but I gave all those sets a full listen over the last week and I enjoyed it a lot more this time. Pires has a wonderful almost lyrical ability with her playing and it just flows so well and so natural, but I don't always like her tempos. Eschenbach seemed a little more "choppy" I guess in his playing but I thought his tempos were perfect. He definitely warrants more listening from me.


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## Ukko

realdealblues said:


> When I first listened to the Eschenbach cycle a couple years ago, I didn't really think much of it, but I gave all those sets a full listen over the last week and I enjoyed it a lot more this time. Pires has a wonderful almost lyrical ability with her playing and it just flows so well and so natural, but I don't always like her tempos. Eschenbach seemed a little more "choppy" I guess in his playing but I thought his tempos were perfect. He definitely warrants more listening from me.


How the Mozart sonatas are interpreted seems to me (and I think Arthur Loesser) to have been unduly influenced by 19th C. parlor musicmaking by the young female amateurs who abounded in European 'polite society' of the Piano Century. Eschenbach pretty much avoids that gentile approach. I appreciate it.


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## NightHawk

Well, for starters (and I mean NOOOO insult to you), I'd get rid of the Glenn Gould, altogether - I would sell the CDS in a garage sale or give them away. The tempos are too fast as if GG is thumbing his nose at Mozart and his fans. I think they sound comic, like a piano-roll gone insane. He stated in interview as not really liking the music of Mozart (source is _GG, a Life and 32 Variations_, I believe), and something tells me he recorded the sonatas out of contractual necessity. What I'd keep on the iPod in order of my preference is: Eschenbach, De Larrocha, and Uchida...but then it's just my opinion. I need to thin down my iPhone music list, as well.



realdealblues said:


> I'm constantly running out of space on my old ipod (160GB Classic). I currently have 7 complete cycles of Mozart's Piano Sonatas on there and I want to cut that down. I honestly don't have a favorite. There are things I like about each of them and things I don't like about each of them. None of them are definitive for me. I currently have:
> 
> Alicia De Larrocha
> Christoph Eschenbach
> Daniel Barenboim (Both EMI & Deutsche Grammophon recordings)
> Glenn Gould
> Maria Joao Pires
> Mitsuko Uchida
> 
> I will probably keep Glenn Gould's on there because I have all of his recordings on there and I like to hear his interpretations from time to time. The others are closer together in trying to keep in line with Mozart's ideals I think.
> 
> So, which recording would prefer to keep? Granted I just uncheck them in my itunes so I can always swap them in and out later if I get tired of one, but I'm just curious if you were going to choose one to keep on your ipod or mp3 player, which one would you keep? I'm kind of interested to see what the "most popular favorite" of everyone on this board would be. Thanks for any votes/replies.


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## kv466

Smart man to keep the Glenn versions as no mere mortal can ever play in such a way...aside from that, I just recently heard the entire Eschenbach cycle and I would definitely give it my stamp of approval. I remember liking Alicia's stuff, too, but I haven't heard her in a long time.


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## realdealblues

Hilltroll72 said:


> How the Mozart sonatas are interpreted seems to me (and I think Arthur Loesser) to have been unduly influenced by 19th C. parlor musicmaking by the young female amateurs who abounded in European 'polite society' of the Piano Century. Eschenbach pretty much avoids that gentile approach. I appreciate it.


Hadn't really thought about that, interesting thought. Makes me think about my approach to Beethoven. I get kind of the same thing with Kempff and Gilels on Beethoven's piano sonatas. Kempff to me is like Pires. His phrasing is lyrical to me and he flows very nicely in and out of every change, it's pretty but I don't care that much for it. Gilels is like an animal, absolutely ferocious! I love it! Maybe I should look at Mozart more the way I look at Beethoven 

Mozart, especially his earlier works have what I think of as that traditional Major key classical music. Stuff that is fairly cheerful and was meant to entertain (obviously later on from him we see more what I feel are introspective works), but after all he was young when he started out and culture of the time was a certain way. Beethoven to me is that later period of composers where we start to see more Minor keys and more introspection early on, maybe because he was older (seems like he was around 25 when he wrote his 1st sonata, where Mozart was like 18).

I guess I've always thought of Mozart as a little more gentile because of this. Hmm...thanks for giving me something to really think on :lol:


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## realdealblues

NightHawk said:


> Well, for starters (and I mean NOOOO insult to you), I'd get rid of the Glenn Gould, altogether - I would sell the CDS in a garage sale or give them away. The tempos are too fast as if GG is thumbing his nose at Mozart and his fans. I think they sound comic, like a piano-roll gone insane. He stated in interview as not really liking the music of Mozart (source is _GG, a Life and 32 Variations_, I believe), and something tells me he recorded the sonatas out of contractual necessity. What I'd keep on the iPod in order of my preference is: Eschenbach, De Larrocha, and Uchida...but then it's just my opinion. I need to thin down my iPhone music list, as well.


I take no offense. I'm very aware of how a lot of people feel about Gould's Mozart. He obviously did not go the conventional route but on the other side, I do understand why he did it. I have a very personal connection with Gould so all of his recordings stay with me no matter what. I appreciate the response though. Interesting to see another Eschenbach and a De Larrocha. I really do like Alecia's cycle. She's kind of the cross between Eschenbach and Pires for me. Not as lyrical as Pires and not as intense as Eschenbach. She's a really nice middle ground.


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## realdealblues

kv466 said:


> Smart man to keep the Glenn versions as no mere mortal can ever play in such a way...aside from that, I just recently heard the entire Eschenbach cycle and I would definitely give it my stamp of approval. I remember liking Alicia's stuff, too, but I haven't heard her in a long time.


Amen. Glenn was one of a kind  Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate them.


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## Ukko

realdealblues said:


> Hadn't really thought about that, interesting thought. Makes me think about my approach to Beethoven. I get kind of the same thing with Kempff and Gilels on Beethoven's piano sonatas. Kempff to me is like Pires. His phrasing is lyrical to me and he flows very nicely in and out of every change, it's pretty but I don't care that much for it. Gilels is like an animal, absolutely ferocious! I love it! Maybe I should look at Mozart more the way I look at Beethoven
> 
> Mozart, especially his earlier works have what I think of as that traditional Major key classical music. Stuff that is fairly cheerful and was meant to entertain (obviously later on from him we see more what I feel are introspective works), but after all he was young when he started out and culture of the time was a certain way. Beethoven to me is that later period of composers where we start to see more Minor keys and more introspection early on, maybe because he was older (seems like he was around 25 when he wrote his 1st sonata, where Mozart was like 18).
> 
> I guess I've always thought of Mozart as a little more gentile because of this. Hmm...thanks for giving me something to really think on :lol:


It's been awhile since I read Mr. Loesser's book (*Men, Women and Pianos* -_ A Social History_, which I recommend - the guy was an excellent writer), but I think I remember him saying that those gentile young ladies were directed away from many of Beethoven's sonatas; too passionate, unladylike.


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## realdealblues

That's funny  I'll have to look for that book, sounds very interesting.


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## Pestouille

realdealblues said:


> Hadn't really thought about that, interesting thought. Makes me think about my approach to Beethoven. I get kind of the same thing with Kempff and Gilels on Beethoven's piano sonatas. Kempff to me is like Pires. His phrasing is lyrical to me and he flows very nicely in and out of every change, it's pretty but I don't care that much for it. Gilels is like an animal, absolutely ferocious! I love it! Maybe I should look at Mozart more the way I look at Beethoven
> 
> Mozart, especially his earlier works have what I think of as that traditional Major key classical music. Stuff that is fairly cheerful and was meant to entertain (obviously later on from him we see more what I feel are introspective works), but after all he was young when he started out and culture of the time was a certain way. Beethoven to me is that later period of composers where we start to see more Minor keys and more introspection early on, maybe because he was older (seems like he was around 25 when he wrote his 1st sonata, where Mozart was like 18).
> 
> I guess I've always thought of Mozart as a little more gentile because of this. Hmm...thanks for giving me something to really think on :lol:


Stuff that is fairly cheerful and was meant to entertain.... ???
Beethoven to me is that later period of composers where we start to see more Minor keys and more introspection...???
...but after all he was young when he started out and culture of the time was a certain way.

K62a = major = cheerful
K63f= major = cheerful
K158a= bad little Mozart, you should not write cheerful music only for entertainment.... well I know, you were living in a certain culture (a bit savages, you know) and you were young. I pardon you...:angel:

This culture of savages has produced musicians living at the same time: Mozart, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Haydn, Beethoven ... and a lot of others.

Minor Keys = introspection :lol:


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## realdealblues

Pestouille said:


> Stuff that is fairly cheerful and was meant to entertain.... ???
> Beethoven to me is that later period of composers where we start to see more Minor keys and more introspection...???
> ...but after all he was young when he started out and culture of the time was a certain way.
> 
> K62a = major = cheerful
> K63f= major = cheerful
> K158a= bad little Mozart, you should not write cheerful music only for entertainment.... well I know, you were living in a certain culture (a bit savages, you know) and you were young. I pardon you...:angel:
> 
> This culture of savages has produced musicians living at the same time: Mozart, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Haydn, Beethoven ... and a lot of others.
> 
> Minor Keys = introspection :lol:


I'm glad you found amusement in completely misinterpreting my point and taking everything completely out of context. However; it is your right to read into it whatever you want.

I never said anything about Savages. Mozart lived from 1756-1791 and especially his early years as he was traveling with his father and sister he was writing and playing to "entertain" Emperors and nobility. Generally you didn't play funeral marches for such occasions.

Beethoven lived 1770-1827 (Born at least 16 years later) and had a drunkard for a father who didn't take him all across Europe to play for Kings and Queens. Yes, I'm well aware they were both alive during roughly the same time period, but Beethoven was around 35+ years after Mozart died. The world around them changed a lot between the time Mozart was born and the time Beethoven died.

I also never said the Introspection equals minor keys. Major key music is generally thought of as "happy and cheerful". Minor key music in general is though of as having as "sad" sound or a "moodiness". Many times if you want to convey greater emotion or feelings you do so by employing different modes, scales, etc.

My meaning behind the whole thing was that Beethoven had a much harder life in his early years before he made it to Vienna and to me his early music is more introspective than Mozarts. He saw more of life. When Mozart got out from under his Father and was living out on his own and had to deal with life and being broke and being married and the death of children, to me his music became more dynamic and with greater range of melody of depth.


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## Ukko

/\ I have no comment _rdb_, except _yeah_.


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## Pestouille

realdealblues said:


> I'm glad you found amusement in completely misinterpreting my point and taking everything completely out of context. However; it is your right to read into it whatever you want.
> 
> I never said anything about Savages. Mozart lived from 1756-1791 and especially his early years as he was traveling with his father and sister he was writing and playing to "entertain" Emperors and nobility. Generally you didn't play funeral marches for such occasions.
> 
> Beethoven lived 1770-1827 (Born at least 16 years later) and had a drunkard for a father who didn't take him all across Europe to play for Kings and Queens. Yes, I'm well aware they were both alive during roughly the same time period, but Beethoven was around 35+ years after Mozart died. The world around them changed a lot between the time Mozart was born and the time Beethoven died.
> 
> I also never said the Introspection equals minor keys. Major key music is generally thought of as "happy and cheerful". Minor key music in general is though of as having as "sad" sound or a "moodiness". Many times if you want to convey greater emotion or feelings you do so by employing different modes, scales, etc.
> 
> My meaning behind the whole thing was that Beethoven had a much harder life in his early years before he made it to Vienna and to me his early music is more introspective than Mozarts. He saw more of life. When Mozart got out from under his Father and was living out on his own and had to deal with life and being broke and being married and the death of children, to me his music became more dynamic and with greater range of melody of depth.


It just seems to me that you don't really master what you're talking about...


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## Ukko

Pestouille said:


> It just seems to me that you don't really master what you're talking about...


Perhaps you haven't mastered the idiom?


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## Pestouille

Hilltroll72 said:


> Perhaps you haven't mastered the idiom?


Just for info (simply Wikipedia):

Beethoven's first music teacher was his father. Although tradition has it that Johann van Beethoven was a harsh instructor, and that the child Beethoven, "made to stand at the keyboard, was often in tears,"[2] the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians claimed that no solid documentation supported this, and asserted that "speculation and myth-making have both been productive.

Sorry for not mastering the Idiom...

And this is only one comment, there are lot of others.

I could suggest you some good biographies:

Mozart from Wolfgang Hildesheimer
Die 9 Symphonien Beethovens: Entstehung, Deutung from Renate Ulm (should be translated by now or very soon)


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## Ukko

Pestouille said:


> Just for info (simply Wikipedia):
> 
> Beethoven's first music teacher was his father. Although tradition has it that Johann van Beethoven was a harsh instructor, and that the child Beethoven, "made to stand at the keyboard, was often in tears,"[2] the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians claimed that no solid documentation supported this, and asserted that "speculation and myth-making have both been productive.
> 
> Sorry for not mastering the Idiom...
> 
> And this is only one comment, there are lot of others.
> 
> I could suggest you some good biographies:
> 
> Mozart from Wolfgang Hildesheimer
> Die 9 Symphonien Beethovens: Entstehung, Deutung from Renate Ulm (should be translated by now or very soon)


Thank you for the information. I have read it in the original Greek.


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## realdealblues

Pestouille said:


> It just seems to me that you don't really master what you're talking about...


I'd like to know exactly what you seem to think I don't know?

I have read and watched many biographies on both Mozart and Beethoven. It's pretty consistent that Beethoven's father was a drunk and that after his wife died when Beethoven was around 16 or 17 he became an even worse alcoholic and Beethoven was pretty much left to take care of his younger brothers. I believe Beethoven was a very angst ridden youth. Perhaps you don't?

Is it that you don't agree that life experiences make you become more introspective?

Is it that you don't think different keys and scales create moods or textures?

I'm simply saying that I believe that when Mozart was a child and composing he didn't use as many musical ideas to convey his feelings and emotions. He was in a sense going through the motions because he composed what he was expected to because of whom he was playing for. Where as Beethoven who didn't start really composing until later (in his later teens) seemed to draw more emotion into his music and had a greater depth to his "early" works because of his life experiences up to that point. I feel that once Mozart struck out on his own he began interjecting more depth and musical textures into his work.

It's the old saying...when I was a child I thought and spoke as a child, when I became a man I thought and spoke as a man.

Beethoven was older when he seriously began composing and thus his life experiences had given him a little more outlook on life than Mozart who began composing as a child, thought and composed more like a child, and his works grew in complexity as he grew older and saw more of life. Do you not agree with this?


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## kv466

Hilltroll72 said:


> Perhaps you haven't mastered the idiom?


Hey, who you calling an idiom?!!


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## Pestouille

realdealblues said:


> I'd like to know exactly what you seem to think I don't know?
> 
> I have read and watched many biographies on both Mozart and Beethoven. It's pretty consistent that Beethoven's father was a drunk and that after his wife died when Beethoven was around 16 or 17 he became an even worse alcoholic and Beethoven was pretty much left to take care of his younger brothers. I believe Beethoven was a very angst ridden youth. Perhaps you don't?
> 
> Is it that you don't agree that life experiences make you become more introspective?
> 
> Is it that you don't think different keys and scales create moods or textures?
> 
> I'm simply saying that I believe that when Mozart was a child and composing he didn't use as many musical ideas to convey his feelings and emotions. He was in a sense going through the motions because he composed what he was expected to because of whom he was playing for. Where as Beethoven who didn't start really composing until later (in his later teens) seemed to draw more emotion into his music and had a greater depth to his "early" works because of his life experiences up to that point. I feel that once Mozart struck out on his own he began interjecting more depth and musical textures into his work.
> 
> It's the old saying...when I was a child I thought and spoke as a child, when I became a man I thought and spoke as a man.
> 
> Beethoven was older when he seriously began composing and thus his life experiences had given him a little more outlook on life than Mozart who began composing as a child, thought and composed more like a child, and his works grew in complexity as he grew older and saw more of life. Do you not agree with this?


The events of Beethoven's life are the stuff of Romantic legend, evoking images of the solitary creator shaking his fist at Fate and finally overcoming it through a supreme effort of creative will. Born in the small German city of Bonn on or around December 16, 1770, he received his early training from his father and other local musicians. As a teenager, he earned some money as an assistant to his teacher, Christian Gottlob Neefe, then was granted half of his father's salary as court musician from the Electorate of Cologne in order to care for his two younger brothers as his father gave in to alcoholism. Beethoven played viola in various orchestras, becoming friends with other players such as Antoine Reicha, Nikolaus Simrock, and Franz Ries, and began taking on composition commissions. As a member of the court chapel orchestra, he was able to travel some and meet members of the nobility, one of whom, Count Ferdinand Waldstein, would become a great friend and patron to him. Beethoven … (these are established facts)

Experience of life does not come from our will of seeing Beethoven as a victim... nor does it involve the fact of writing in minor keys (Beethoven's use of minor key is not that much too!), nor does it involve creativeness and maturity (in art). Some Artists gave their best at a very early stage of their life and others on the contrary!

I don't think that Mozart's life was heaven, especially all the trips with the family. Days, weeks, months of travel in terrible conditions, the 'caleche' in winter on muddy roads... If you think that it's better than Beethoven's life. But I don't think that Mozart composed so well music because of that. Mozart is born genius and died genius. He had different periods of intense creativity and others without any... Mozart was and will remain a mystery.

Concerning the use of minor keys, Mozart is a special case. It seemed that writing in minor keys has been a 'pensum' for him. Several musicologist tried to link the use of minor keys with sad events in Mozart's life. The most successful ones were the D minor clans with the Requiem (own death) and Don Giovanni (father's death)!!! but what about the String Quartet in D minor (Son's birth)?

Minor keys are not specific to romantic composers, nor major keys specific to classical composers... Domenico Scarlatti composed a lot of sonatas in minor keys, composed for entertainment purposes! and there are a lot of example like that. Keys are playing a role in the rendered mood, but tempo too and a lot of other factors... Minor keys are much more complex than that.

Turning everything into white and black is reductive, dangerous and leads to ignorance, as well as conveying myths and legends (I just blame those biographers pushing on the "easy" button of our expectations).


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## Ukko

kv466 said:


> Hey, who you calling an idiom?!!


Hah! Whoever the shoe fits...

Anyway, _Pestouille_ (I wish he had chosen a different username) is convinced of the validity of his sources and his interpretation of them, and probably not deliberately insulting.

Probably.


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## Pestouille

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah! Whoever the shoe fits...
> 
> Anyway, _Pestouille_ (I wish he had chosen a different username) is convinced of the validity of his sources and his interpretation of them, and probably not deliberately insulting.
> 
> Probably.


 "E pur si muove!"


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## realdealblues

Pestouille said:


> The events of Beethoven's life are the stuff of Romantic legend, evoking images of the solitary creator shaking his fist at Fate and finally overcoming it through a supreme effort of creative will. Born in the small German city of Bonn on or around December 16, 1770, he received his early training from his father and other local musicians. As a teenager, he earned some money as an assistant to his teacher, Christian Gottlob Neefe, then was granted half of his father's salary as court musician from the Electorate of Cologne in order to care for his two younger brothers as his father gave in to alcoholism. Beethoven played viola in various orchestras, becoming friends with other players such as Antoine Reicha, Nikolaus Simrock, and Franz Ries, and began taking on composition commissions. As a member of the court chapel orchestra, he was able to travel some and meet members of the nobility, one of whom, Count Ferdinand Waldstein, would become a great friend and patron to him. Beethoven … (these are established facts)
> 
> Experience of life does not come from our will of seeing Beethoven as a victim... nor does it involve the fact of writing in minor keys (Beethoven's use of minor key is not that much too!), nor does it involve creativeness and maturity (in art). Some Artists gave their best at a very early stage of their life and others on the contrary!
> 
> I don't think that Mozart's life was heaven, especially all the trips with the family. Days, weeks, months of travel in terrible conditions, the 'caleche' in winter on muddy roads... If you think that it's better than Beethoven's life. But I don't think that Mozart composed so well music because of that. Mozart is born genius and died genius. He had different periods of intense creativity and others without any... Mozart was and will remain a mystery.
> 
> Concerning the use of minor keys, Mozart is a special case. It seemed that writing in minor keys has been a 'pensum' for him. Several musicologist tried to link the use of minor keys with sad events in Mozart's life. The most successful ones were the D minor clans with the Requiem (own death) and Don Giovanni (father's death)!!! but what about the String Quartet in D minor (Son's birth)?
> 
> Minor keys are not specific to romantic composers, nor major keys specific to classical composers... Domenico Scarlatti composed a lot of sonatas in minor keys, composed for entertainment purposes! and there are a lot of example like that. Keys are playing a role in the rendered mood, but tempo too and a lot of other factors... Minor keys are much more complex than that.
> 
> Turning everything into white and black is reductive, dangerous and leads to ignorance, as well as conveying myths and legends (I just blame those biographers pushing on the "easy" button of our expectations).


I don't disagree with points you make but I don't think I was reducing everything to black and white either. Everything was a generalization. Nothing is ever set in stone. If I believe that Beethoven was an angry youth and Mozart was a happy youth, you are more than welcome to disagree but I don't think that makes me ignorant because neither of us were there to meet either of them. Same with keys and moods in music. It's a generalization. I'm not saying Mozart wasn't a genius. I just think as he got older his works became broader and he took different influences from both life and other even composers to create more interesting music by using different keys and modes and such. I feel Beethoven did it a little early in his composing career because unlike Mozart he didn't start publishing/composing works when he was like 6.

It's like saying if you believe in the Bible and I think it's a book for sheep that it makes one of us ignorant. Or because you think Oranges taste better than Apples that one of us is wrong.

Anyone is welcome to disagree with anything I say, but just as you have your beliefs, I have mine and I don't see how saying "you don't know what your talking about" equates to a discussion, or if I throw out a general idea that it somehow is a definitive law that is black and white.

I'm sorry if I didn't explain my position well enough and maybe as Hilltroll said you weren't deliberately trying to be insulting, but to me it sounded like "you're not allowed to believe differently from me, and if you do, well obviously you're an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about" and I don't think that's right to say to anyone.


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## Pestouille

realdealblues said:


> I'm sorry if I didn't explain my position well enough and maybe as Hilltroll said you weren't deliberately trying to be insulting, but to me it sounded like "you're not allowed to believe differently from me, and if you do, well obviously you're an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about" and I don't think that's right to say to anyone.


I have never treated you of idiot and even never thought of it, but there's a bunch of let say "Myths" conveyed by certain cheap biographers creating false views on musician and on music. Mozart and Beethoven are the first target of those stupid money makers, their books are not based on facts or evidence. I have been believing the same as you for a long time, because in some way it's nicer to have that image of Beethoven or Mozart... It's even hard when confronted to facts, to acknowledge... Hildesheimer was one of the first to reveal the other side of the mirror concerning Mozart, it is available in english, you should read it. I bet, it will change your point of view on Mozart and raise a lot of questions....

By the way, I have made some small research for you the Original Denon cycle of Pires is available on Amazon.de for 10,97 € under Brilliant label now.








I bought it thanks to you, I had an old vinyl transferred on digital...
They seem to have remastered it...:angel:

Have a nice day with Mozart

At that price you should enjoy, but please listen to your Arrau's Mozart...


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## realdealblues

Pestouille said:


> I have never treated you of idiot and even never thought of it, but there's a bunch of let say "Myths" conveyed by certain cheap biographers creating false views on musician and on music. Mozart and Beethoven are the first target of those stupid money makers, their books are not based on facts or evidence. I have been believing the same as you for a long time, because in some way it's nicer to have that image of Beethoven or Mozart... It's even hard when confronted to facts, to acknowledge... Hildesheimer was one of the first to reveal the other side of the mirror concerning Mozart, it is available in english, you should read it. I bet, it will change your point of view on Mozart and raise a lot of questions....
> 
> By the way, I have made some small research for you the Original Denon cycle of Pires is available on Amazon.de for 10,97 € under Brilliant label now.
> 
> View attachment 3528
> 
> I bought it thanks to you, I had an old vinyl transferred on digital...
> They seem to have remastered it...:angel:
> 
> Have a nice day with Mozart
> 
> At that price you should enjoy, but please listen to your Arrau's Mozart...


No hard feelings. I understand where you are coming from and I will look for that book you mentioned.

I ordered that Pires box set on Amazon too 

I listened to a little bit of Arrau the other day. I need to sit down and just start at sonata 1 and listen all the way through.

I also just ordered the Jenö Jando CD's on the Naxos label as well. I heard a few of his recordings and really liked what I heard. I also heard a few from Fredrich Gulda's Mozart Tapes and I REALLY liked his versions but it's too bad they were home recordings. I wish he would have done a studio set.

I just keep looking for that one set that has that perfect sound, phrasing and tempos that match what I like. I really wish Murray Perahia would record them all. I have the one CD he did of sonatas and I really like them and I have his Complete Mozart Piano Concerto box set and I think that is my favorite out of all the recordings I have of the concertos. Anyway...the quest continues...:lol:


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## kv466

The little bit of Mozart Horrorwitz recorded was actually quite lovely and worth a listen.


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## realdealblues

kv466 said:


> The little bit of Mozart Horrorwitz recorded was actually quite lovely and worth a listen.


I've got his Mozart recordings too and I agree 

There are quite quite a few recordings I really like and would be totally happy with but a lot of them just have lackluster sound to me. Gould had such a great recorded tone. His piano was always so bright and vibrant and really "alive". I love listening to his Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 5. I felt the same way about Gilels Beethoven sonata recordings, bright and alive but still "warm". A lot of recordings just sound "dull" or "muddy" to me. The highs and lows are just...blah. I've thought many times about running them through and eq or mixer or some of my recording software I use for recording my own music and trying to adjust them...lol.


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## Ukko

realdealblues said:


> I've got his Mozart recordings too and I agree
> 
> There are quite quite a few recordings I really like and would be totally happy with but a lot of them just have lackluster sound to me. Gould had such a great recorded tone. His piano was always so bright and vibrant and really "alive". I love listening to his Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 5. I felt the same way about Gilels Beethoven sonata recordings, bright and alive but still "warm". A lot of recordings just sound "dull" or "muddy" to me. The highs and lows are just...blah. I've thought many times about running them through and eq or mixer or some of my recording software I use for recording my own music and trying to adjust them...lol.


I agree about the sound in those DG Gilels Beethoven recordings. Not so confident about fixing 'dull' sounding recordings though. A lot of what is missing 'air'. The only 'fix' I know of is reverb, and that is a bitch to get right; the decay is touchy enough, but I think the attack needs to be messed with too, and I have never got a handle on it.


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## Vaneyes

Since I responded in Post #5, I've relistened to GG's, and discovered Lili Kraus'. I would put the entirety of LK ahead of anyone on the list, and I would put GG's early ones ahead of anyone on the list. But I realize this doesn't address the OP's question.


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## realdealblues

Vaneyes said:


> Since I responded in Post #5, I've relistened to GG's, and discovered Lili Kraus'. I would put the entirety of LK ahead of anyone on the list, and I would put GG's early ones ahead of anyone on the list. But I realize this doesn't address the OP's question.


Originally, I wasn't going to buy any more versions and just try to stick it with what I have, but it's kind of turned into a quest...lol. Probably one I will never reach the end of, but I will continue on searching anyway for that set with my ideal sound and playing.

So, thanks for the heads up on Lili Kraus. I hadn't heard of her before so I will be checking her out.

I finally sat down and listened to Claudio Arrau's Mozart recordings all the way through. There is some stuff I really liked but others I just couldn't get into his phrasing. His tone was very nice, although there is some strange sounds on some of his recordings that were kind of distracting, almost like the occasional fly buzzing the microphone.

I also listened to all of Jando's recordings I liked most of them, but it was recorded in a church and has some serious reverb. It sounds fine on a home stereo system, almost like hearing it live in a hall, but through headphones it's a bit much.

I just picked up Klara Wurtz's recordings as well as Walter Giesking and Ingrid Haebler.

I'm currently looking at getting Schiff's recordings to hear what he sounds like. I also found a few others I didn't know were out there, Walter Klien & Ronald Brautigam so I'm considering trying those too. I didn't realize so many people made complete recordings.


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## realdealblues

I wanted to throw up an update because amazingly enough...I am finally happy with a complete cycle. Sound, Tempos & Interpretation all in the bounds of what I was looking for. Complete cycles I went through:

Alicia De Larrocha
Christoph Eschenbach
Daniel Barenboim
Glenn Gould
Maria Joao Pires (DG & Denon Cycles)
Mitsuko Uchida
Claudio Arrau
Klara Wurtz
Jenö Jando
Walter Geisking
Ingrid Haebler (Philips & Denon Cycles)
Walter Giesking
Lili Kraus
Paul Badura-Skeda

After all that...Ingrid Haebler's Denon Cycle was exactly what I was looking for. I listened to her Philips cycle and really liked it but the sound wasn't the greatest due to age of the recordings and a few spots I questioned her reading of the music. I then read she did a later cycle on Denon with much better sound and it took me a while to find (It's in fact very hard to find) but I finally did. I read many mixed reviews on it. She's "too mechanical" or it's "too perfect" and whatever, but I've heard the same thing about many other great players. The sound was indeed improved and the few little things she did in a few sonatas that I questioned in her earlier cycle she had played differently (more correct in my eyes) on the new cycle. 

In the end they may not be perfect for anyone else but me, but I'm very happy with this cycle and feel I can finally rest knowing I found the cycle that speaks very clearly to me on a very personal level and meets all my expectations.


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## poconoron

I also enjoy Haebler's Mozart piano concertos........ I have the Phillips one, but wasn't aware of the Denon.


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## realdealblues

I like her Piano Concertos as well. I have almost as many versions of the piano concertos as I do sonatas:
Ingrid Haebler
Murray Perahia
Alfred Brendel
Géza Anda
Mitsuko Uchida
Vladamir Ashkenazy
Rudolf Serkin
Daniel Barenboim
Malcom Bilson

Honestly, I can listen to pretty much all of them. I think Murray Perahia's cycle has the best "sound" to me so I listen to his versions maybe a little more frequently, but I like most all the others. 

But for me the sonatas are a much more personal thing being only one person and one instrument. I really need them to speak to me on a personal level and also being a bit vain or selfish, I want to hear as nicely a recorded sound as well. If you like her early cycle on Philips, I think you might like her newer set on Denon even more. Her readings haven't changed that much, just little things to me she has "tightened up" or "picked up on" as she studied the music more over the years, and with the bonus of a more "lively" sound to my ears.


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## Dominic Roy

*Brautigam*

You should definitely add Ronald Brautigam's Mozart Piano Sonata and Concerto recordings to your list. They are, in my mind, without equal, and I've heard most of the recordings on your list.

Brautigam's Haydn recordings are second to none, as well.


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## realdealblues

Dominic Roy said:


> You should definitely add Ronald Brautigam's Mozart Piano Sonata and Concerto recordings to your list. They are, in my mind, without equal, and I've heard most of the recordings on your list.
> 
> Brautigam's Haydn recordings are second to none, as well.


Two years have passed since I first started this thread and yes, I have Brautigam's Mozart & Haydn recordings as well. I have not stopped exploring Mozart's Piano Sonata recordings and probably never will.

As far as Brautigam's Mozart Piano Sonatas...I found them good overall, but I do disagree with him at times on phrasing and tempo. His Fortepiano does sound good and was recorded well so if someone were looking for a "period" recording, it's definitely recommendable.

But in my personal exploration and opinion, and two years after discovering them, Ingrid Haebler's recordings on Denon are still my reference edition.

I have found Michael Endres recordings on Oehms pretty enjoyable of late and I did pick up Christian Blackshaw's first volume that came out late, last year and am pretty excited to hear any future volumes from him. If he records and releases an entire cycle and keeps his current vision, it may rival Haebler for my top pick.


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