# Composition Lessons



## Ramako

I know there are members in all sorts of situations vis-a-vis formal training and composition, and I was wondering what people's experiences and opinions are concerning it. I couldn't find a recent thread on the subject, and I thought it might be worth tackling the topic in its own thread, even though some members have given their opinions on the matter, sometimes quite eloquently, elsewhere.

My own experience of them is very negative. I have had lessons and attended workshops, and not only found them totally unhelpful, but failed to see or hear very much which I could conceive of being substantive at all to anyone. I shall probably stop attending them.

It is not my intention to cause argument. Quite the opposite in fact - I am hoping that the posts in this thread may help me to see what I may be missing.


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## Ingélou

Um - would it be too naff to ask what composition lessons consist of? Do they look at past & present composers & analyse what they're doing - or talk about keys & modes & rhythms - or what? What was it about them that you found unhelpful? Would it be unkind to say that they exist just to fill a course or give someone a job?

I know nothing, but I *am* interested!


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## ricardo_jvc6

My aspect of composition lessons are totally the otherwise of what you thought. I find them helpful. I find the baroque (a bit) interesting, although it could be better, because baroque is not my type and I find it totally unnecessary for me. Classicism, is almost the same. Romanticism, Expressivism, Impressionism, Minimalism, and Modernism is what I like the most, because I like to give my own feeling to my own music. Baroque is about mechanism, very robotic and straight foward which I hardly dislike. Don't be mistaken by this, I hear baroque but... I don't like to know baroque things.... It is completely irrevelent for me. In this case, garbage. This is why I know counterpoint, despite it is not my favourite thing to do.


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## aleazk

I think that what you are experimenting, Ramako, has to do more with the university life, instead of the actual fact that it's a composition class.
As a student, I found most of the classes as mechanical, uninteresting and unstimulating. I started to not attending them and I just showed up at the examinations, lol.
What I did is to take them as formal steps in order to get the tittle. In parallel, I studied and arranged the topics in the ways I liked.
But, yes, can be quite frustrating. Most of the people appointed as professors are just there for making a living, they have no passion for what they do. That's just a question of statistics. There are just few people, in general, who are passionate about their career.
In my experience, I found just one or two professors as stimulating.


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## PetrB

My composition lessons were always one-on-one sessions with a composer / teacher. I know naught else, and they were more than fine.

I can't imagine getting much of anything from a classroom format, other than, say, those once a week once a month _seminar_ sessions with the teacher and the other comp students as they happen in grad school -- even then, you are still meeting privately once a week with the comp teacher.


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## Tomposer

I've had at least three different private teachers and I've learned for about 8-10 years formally, on and off. I've generally found lessons helpful, though I got on much better with one of those than the other two, and it is the one I got on well with whose lessons I benefited most from.

The lessons I found most helpful were those discussing practicalities, techniques, technicalities, technology, orchestration and structure. Lessons focused on "musicality" e.g. melody making, harmony, etc, were much _less _useful. For those things, I've found music analysis a better source of knowledge (which my teachers themselves have suggested would be the case).

So my advice is, don't get lessons to learn musical style or aesthetics. Get lessons to learn the nitty gritty which is not often found in books.


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## Piwikiwi

Tomposer said:


> I've had at least three different private teachers and I've learned for about 8-10 years formally, on and off. I've generally found lessons helpful, though I got on much better with one of those than the other two, and it is the one I got on well with whose lessons I benefited most from.
> 
> The lessons I found most helpful were those discussing practicalities, techniques, technicalities, technology, orchestration and structure. Lessons focused on "musicality" e.g. melody making, harmony, etc, were much _less _useful. For those things, I've found music analysis a better source of knowledge (which my teachers themselves have suggested would be the case).
> 
> So my advice is, don't get lessons to learn musical style or aesthetics. Get lessons to learn the nitty gritty which is not often found in books.


Sorry to go off topic here but how would you learn musical style/aesthetics? I really want to start composing but don't have a clue where to start.


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## Ramako

Ingenue said:


> Um - would it be too naff to ask what composition lessons consist of? Do they look at past & present composers & analyse what they're doing - or talk about keys & modes & rhythms - or what? What was it about them that you found unhelpful? Would it be unkind to say that they exist just to fill a course or give someone a job?
> 
> I know nothing, but I *am* interested!


Well, that is the question that I am asking :lol:

From responses so far, it seems that my experiences have been different. I have find composers seem to start by worrying about problems of notation, then considering whether the parts are idiomatically written for the instruments. The first of these is usually musically irrelevant, and the second is simply less important to the finished result than things like structure etc. (yes, I know both _can_ be important, but most of the time they're being addressed they're just not).

I realise that asking for the specifics of what others found helpful in one-to-one lessons is not necessarily going to work. Often advice can be very specifically tailored to the individual. But thanks to replies so far, especially Tomposer's!


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## paulc

I think composition lessons are only valuable if during exploration of past practice and technique, concepts are actually applied through a series of simple to difficult practical exercises. Only with repetitive practice can these abstract ideas become second nature, skills that can be drawn upon without effort during actual composing.

In my experience:

Reading about theory in books alone (with or without a teacher) = not much help.

Reading about theory, then setting one's self composing challenges that require problem-solving and result in notes written on a page = of immense value.

Playing completed exercises on an instrument also helps develop the ear. Once you have some practical experience with technique, the musical scores you analyse have a lot more meaning / utility.


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## Ramako

Re: aleazk and PetrB

My lessons are mostly in a three-to-one format, basically imitating one-to-one except you sit around while he talks to the other two. Also they have brought in outside composers for similar things. My tutor is very enthusiastic (I had him for other courses, though composition is his speciality) so he is not the problem. Next year I could have one-to-one tutorials, but I probably won't bother (my tutor and I agree that analysis is a much better strength of mine for the purposes of the course). As I said I don't find any reason to suspect that they would be more helpful.

It may just be a matter of different wavelengths. I certainly want to keep composing, but fortunately my analysis is helping me greatly figure out the kinds of things I wanted to.


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## Lunasong

I am curious whether I should expect learning how to copyright, promote, and publish one's own music to be part of composition lessons. My son is currently majoring in composition, and I think he should ask the professor to include this as he (really me) is paying for the classes, but it doesn't appear to be part of the curriculum.


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## PetrB

Piwikiwi said:


> Sorry to go off topic here but how would you learn musical style/aesthetics? I really want to start composing but don't have a clue where to start.


Returning to only that which I know / experienced: My required theory courses always demanded some writing, one or two brief pieces per quarter or semester, usually very much within the vocabulary of what period was being covered that term (A romantic style piano piece when covering the romantics, an essay in some mixed Bartokian modes, a sampling of serial technique, etc.

The closest I ever got to a CLASS which dealt with the aesthetics of music was, ironically, a brilliantly taught Asian Music course-- of course it was an elective. Schools are simply too crammed with the obligatory and necessary courses in theory, ear training, etc. to have the luxury to run a class on music aesthetics. Again, that begins to only come into play in discussion in a class setting in those grad school seminars where a handful of advanced comp students meet with the Teacher.

However, and Tomposer confirmed it, within the context of the private composition studies, concentrating mainly on what you are writing, the better teacher will question you in such a way that you are forced to consider those more abstract things such as the aesthetic of what you are trying to make.

You might find a better idea of what to be looking for, for yourself and from an instructor, in listening to what composer Nico Muhly speaks of in this link, his two comp teachers from Juilliard. [Note, please, that his comp teachers were both active well-known composers, the importance of which cannot be over-emphasized.]




Here, he has some general advice for young composers




and a bit on dealing with frustation


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## rborganist

AS an undergraduate, Composition was the culmination of all the music theory classes of the previous three years plus the previous semester of Form and Analysis. We took two years of theory (using the third edition of Walter Piston's Harmony) and a year of counterpoint. Then the first semester of the senior year we analyzed various compositions including structure, harmonic progressions, modulations, etc. When we finally got to composition, we started by writing miniatures in the style of various composers. Our two big projects were an art song and the first movement of a sonata. It was when I had a chance to take private composition lessons from the best all-around music teacher I ever had that I really began to learn the art of composition and to blossom as a (still unpublished) composer. My teacher had his masters in theory and composition, and composed a piece especially for the men's chorus in which I was then singing (and which he was directing--his doctorate was in conducting). We can't all have well-known composers such as Leo Sowerby for music theory (as my college voice teacher did), but if your theory teacher really knows composition--and how to teach it--much can be learned even in the classroom. If you need mental stimulation, look up dance forms and practice writing those. These compositions needn't be long; 16-20 measures can work. One of my favorites is the gavotte; I've written a couple of these, and the tango is fun. Try also writing variations on a theme or rewriting a theme in the style of a particular composer (something short such as" Happy Birthday" or "America". This is the sort of thing Bruce Adolphe does in his Piano Puzzlers on Performance Today. These are "icebreakers" which have worked well for me.


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## PetrB

rborganist has further prompted my memory (thank you):

Taking the single melodic line of a song or hymn tune, alone and then giving it a new harmonic context, is a great "exercise" where you still get a result which is _yours_. Copy or write down the line, I'd say pay some attention to the lyrics / text even if it is an instrumental version you've chosen to do, and then find your harmonies, bass line, etc.

This type of effort has another positive side, in that it is limited, already has a beginning, middle and end. If the work is at all successful, you have something, an arrangement, which might just get performed.

Also very helpful, choose a brief poem and compose -- free from your imagination, a song. benefit here is again, there is a preexisting _form_ or at least a very strong suggestion of one, a beginning, middle and end, and the text can help you determine the emotional color(s) of the music. Brahms said when young, he turned to poetry to make into song for the above reasons, and in later life, as another sort of inspiration which also stimulated his musical imagination.


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## Tomposer

People underestimate a) the amount you can learn about the technology of composition, and b) the degree technology affects the way you compose.

Music tech and music have always had an inseparable relationship. The development of instrument's capabilities during the 1700s and 1800s drastically affected the way music was written. When the piano began to be mass-produced, it became the bread-and-butter instrument of the growing middle class throughout Europe and America. It was common place for at least one member of a middle class family (often a daughter or wife) to learn to read sheet music, so that at a time preceding radio, TV and audio recordings, there might be a ready supply of music in the home. We find it hard to imagine life without a stereo system, radio, computer, or an iphone, so we often overlook this basic requirement people of earlier times had - having music in the home. This represented a key market for composers, and so we have the music of Schumann, Schubert, and many many others. 

To imagine that composition remains separable from its technology is simply mistaken. The more a composer learns about the idiosyncrasies of the instrument, the instrument-player relationship, the performance environment, and even the kind of audience, the more creative, purely musical ideas are prompted.

Think of Stravinsky's Violin concerto in D, which is based on a chord which depends entirely on a particular hand position of the player. Stravinsky used the physical limitations of the apparatus to prompt an entire concerto.

You might only ever talk about the technicalities of composition and still have lessons for years


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## StevenOBrien

In my limited experience:

Deep down, *everyone* knows how their music is meant to be, and how they can achieve their own idea of perfection. Very few, however, can actually realize this perfection. Especially when starting out, you really need to be pushed along by more experienced people who can help you to understand yourself. I would suggest that you just focus on writing music, share it with people, get criticism and feedback from everyone around you, and apply what you feel will bring you closer to your internal goals and reject the feedback which is irrelevant to you (However, you should never stop considering the feedback you initially rejected, as it may suddenly begin to resonate with you once you have advanced to a higher level).

The only good "composition lessons", and "composition teachers" are the ones who will accept and understand *your* goals, and help you by pushing you towards achieving them. Bad "composition lessons" and "composition teachers" are the ones which try to force you to realize *their* goals and *their* ideas of perfection.

Don't forget, however, that you can easily mistake the good for the bad. Sometimes you will not be able to accept things which can in fact really help you achieve what you want to do.


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## PetrB

Ingenue said:


> Um - would it be too naff to ask what composition lessons consist of? Do they look at past & present composers & analyse what they're doing - or talk about keys & modes & rhythms - or what? What was it about them that you found unhelpful? Would it be unkind to say that they exist just to fill a course or give someone a job?
> 
> I know nothing, but I *am* interested!


Classroom studies:
Theory - nuts 'n' bolts of scales, modes, chord construction, multiple voiced harmony, the movement of the lines making up harmony, required ancillary course in the same arenas being modal and tonal (or 18th century) counterpoint. While theory classes do involve analysis, it is in shorter bits to the goal of say, a Bach chorale, an example from Chopin, Sibelius, etc. Those are mostly dwelling on one or several functions (such as use of secondary dominants), and unless it is a very brief piano piece of no longer than one or two pages, almost never will cover analyzing larger works.... The musical vocabulary spread, over four years, is from late renaissance to the mid-twentieth century (and currently, certainly crammed in their, many of the more current developments.) My training involved, each semester, also writing a small piece (several pages) dwelling within the harmonic style and usage of the era recently studied. Theory classes are littered with the short written assignment, a very brief piece, and constant examples of short bits of analysis.

Analysis: Separate course of study, a required course for all music majors, and with a different focus. This is larger and longer works looked at, all the above harmonic functions regarded, some labeled, but with the aim of looking at many more elements of the entire piece, how it was done (to work well) and especially, Analysis is about _musical form._ You would likely start out with marking the subject, counter-subject of a Bach Fugue, marking the different voices, identifying each with a different color pencil (feels a bit like kindergarten  and progress through the period repertoire of sonatas, symphonies, etc. maybe ending with a Mahler Symphony or like.

All this previous preparation has been to build a basic working vocabulary only -- those more than needed and useful things any and all musicians, performers, singers, i.e. all need to know.

Individual study with a teacher:
Composition: Lol. You first present some works you've written on your own, then if accepted, assigned a private teacher who will direct you further and critique _whatever you are writing and however that may go._ [That bit in italics is the ideal, which I was fortunate to experience: horror stories of retro-conservative professors not accepting anything but old style harmony and old forms, or the reverse, only serial music, the new complexity, etc. abound.]

A really great teacher will have an intimate and astonishing familiarity with all sorts of repertoire, the better to refer you to a score where a problem similar to the one you have made for yourself was successfully executed. (You want to see some perfectly executed acute angle mortise and tenon joinery, have a look at the vaulted ceiling of this building by that architect.)





I had half-hour private sessions once weekly in undergrad, and as miserly as that may seem, it does force the student to develop an ability they can rely upon to make their own decisions as to if something is working well or not, and without needing their hand held. This continues at the graduate level, again private sessions, maybe a bit longer, maybe just twice a month (the syllabus says one thing, what you and the teacher arrive at can be something else, and once a month seminar meetings with the teacher and the other master level comp students.

I think I was more than fortunate in both what those theory classes required of us all, as well as the provision of a private comp teacher. The OP here about "composition classes" made me really wonder what, if much, can be accomplished in that format.


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## Ingélou

Great posts, Steven & Petr - I really enjoyed the link, Petr, too. It seems as if at their best, composition classes help tremendously - but all depends on the teacher. Just like my English lectures - some were stimulating & useful, and others were just patched-up quotes from literary critics & I thought that I'd go mad with boredom!


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## PetrB

Ingenue said:


> Great posts, Steven & Petr - I really enjoyed the link, Petr, too. It seems as if at their best, composition classes help tremendously - but all depends on the teacher. Just like my English lectures - some were stimulating & useful, and others were just patched-up quotes from literary critics & I thought that I'd go mad with boredom!


Before the idea of formal schooling became an institution, whatever the craft, you signed up to study with a master craftsman, _if_ in their estimation you were worth the bother and that you might become adept enough. True till the early / mid-1800's (that is approximate) when conservatories started to become the place to go.

The more a present day student can 'work' the system / program so it is more like that older one-on-one study with a master situation, the better off they are.


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## Stirling

Which is midi is the important lesson of the age.


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## JohnTozer

*Composers who use the TC - lets revive this thread*

I learned composition from the director/conductor (Mr Jock Kyme) of the Amateur Orchestra Association in which I was playing as principle viola after progressing through 2nd and 1st violin. He held group private lessons in composing and arranging for experienced musicians with above 6th grade practical and 5th grade theory who played multiple classical instruments.
The lessons were in tutorial style where our work was distributed discussed and analysed under his leadership. He would prescribe reading and research material and topics which were also discussed. One night per week of about four hours, with a heavy load of homework and self study,. The group I was in consisted of three people at its end who tended toward contemporary, jazz influenced and fusion obsessed. We also thoroughly studied three scores (three major composers) of pieces the orchestra was playing at the time. 
I learned in this manner for two years. During this time I, and the other students, had opportunities to take the Orchestra during practice (he was also coaching us in conducting). At the end of the second year each of us had the opportunity to workshop, under his guidance, A full score composition of 32 bars duration with the Orchestra.
At the end of two years He said (I paraphrase) "I can't teach you any more. Go off in your individual directions and don't look back. Make what you write your own with integrity, ignore any academic arrogance toward you. There is an audience somewhere find it. And remember Eric Satie whenever your down."

I would love to see active composers posting and hooking into this thread, sharing experiences, their current works in progress, MP3 snippets and bites, problems and tribulations etc.
If there is a thread like this already I haven't found it and would like to be told and I will join it.


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## JohnTozer

To kick off I will post a reply to my own post.

I am currently working on a 'concerto' concept for electric/plectrum guitar and orchestra. I am experimenting with use of plectrum and fingers for plucking. Thumb (Pulgar) and index for the plectrum leaving two (middle and ring fingers) to pluck tirando style with middle able to play apoyando as well and possibly the pinky to enable three note plucks.

My question to the knowledgeable people of the TC is there any manual or pedagogy or published directions etc. already developed and published on this or do you have good ideas that you will share with me.


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## QuietGuy

I have a degree in composition (B.A.)

Composition lessons consisted of writing during the week, and then meeting one on one to discuss. ("Keep this, change that, that's good", etc.) I found it very frustrating. I couldn't write in the style I wanted (Impressionistic - I love it), but I was expected to write in a style that the professor was interested in (one very avant garde, the other lived and breathed Bach fugues.) I felt like I was ghost-writing for them.

But finally, I did have a comp professor who realized that I had to write to my natural bent, and let me. On my own I discovered Maessian's Modes of Limited Transposition, and I was on my way .... I turned out a few pieces that every one liked, and I got my degree.

The whole course of study was frustrating to me. Everything they taught in college, I learned in high school, so general music theory was boring to me, I was farther ahead in orchestration, form, etc. Nowadays, music theory can be learned online. http://openmusictheory.com/contents.html There is little point in attending college if one is intelligent enough to read and understand the material on one's own.

I hope this helps you.


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