# Borodin should have quit chemistry for composition...



## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

After knowing his work for only 9 months or so, I have come to the conclusion he could have been one of the best and certainly was already the greatest of the so called "the five". 

I recently have been listening to his unfinished symphony and his sonata for cello and piano in b, oh and the piano trio in D.... all great stuff.. If only he'd devoted more of his life... 

What are some thoughts about this Alexander "the great" of music, as I'd have it. What a guy, what a life he led, very interesting fellow that Borodin.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

From what I hear, he was in fact a first rate chemist too. Perhaps he should have quit composition. Or had himself cloned. With some people, one of them is just not enough.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I personally would have rather him had made more music, but just cause I'm selfish and I love his music.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm sure that Borodin working as a chemist was quite formative for his music, so I'm not at all sure him quitting his bread earning trade would have been at all beneficial for his musical development! 

/ptr


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Borodin didn't think that his scientific work helped his music. Apparently he had to do much of his composing when he was indisposed, and he would joke that people should wish him ill so that he'd have more time for music. Alas, it's too late to regret that he wasn't ill more often.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

In science, there will always be another guy who will discover what there is to discover at around the same time. In art that is also true but to make things really work, to be a great artist, that is irreplaceable.


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

In organic chemistry, there are hundreds of "name reactions" which are called after the name of the person who found them. Borodin is on the list for at least one, with name of another guy (from West who reported the same reaction), so Richannes Wrahms, you are right. As another big fan of Borodin's music, I wish he could spend a little a bit more time on composition: like finishing his opera Prince Igor... Still, what he left us are beautiful gems.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> In science, there will always be another guy who will discover what there is to discover at around the same time.


Yes, that it true. A really brilliant mind would discover things a few years earlier but someone will eventually find things like the aldol reaction Borodin invented. 


Richannes Wrahms said:


> In art that is also true but to make things really work, to be a great artist, that is irreplaceable.


Huh? If Borodin had been a full time chemist I don't think someone else would have writtn a 2nd Symphony that was anything like Borodin's. Or anything else that he wrote either.

We must invent the time travel device to go back and convince AB to compose full time!


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> In science, there will always be another guy who will discover what there is to discover at around the same time. In art that is also true but to make things really work, to be a great artist, that is irreplaceable.


I feel this way too. Yes he was a gifted chemist but it was at a time where if he had not been fully doing his research someone else would have eventually come across whatever he missed but his music, well now one but the artist can put there own unique stamp on compositions. But I also agree with satoru he left behind some true gems although I'm sure hpowders would disagree.. :devil:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

satoru said:


> In organic chemistry, there are hundreds of "name reactions" which are called after the name of the person who found them. Borodin is on the list for at least one, with name of another guy (from West who reported the same reaction), so Richannes Wrahms, you are right. As another big fan of Borodin's music, I wish he could spend a little a bit more time on composition: like finishing his opera Prince Igor... Still, what he left us are beautiful gems.


Prince Igor is long enough, no?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> I feel this way too. Yes he was a gifted chemist but it was at a time where if he had not been fully doing his research someone else would have eventually come across whatever he missed but his music, well now one but the artist can put there own unique stamp on compositions. But I also agree with satoru he left behind some true gems although I'm sure hpowders would disagree.. :devil:


Well maybe he liked chemistry as much as music..?


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2014)

Meanwhile, on a far-away chemistry forum...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Der Leiermann said:


> Well maybe he liked chemistry as much as music..?


Probably chemistry paid better. Also, composing couldn't have been easy for Borodin, who Tchaikovsky said "possesses talent, a very great talent, which however has come to nothing... He has less taste than Cui, and his technique is so poor that he cannot write a bar without assistance."


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Probably chemistry paid better. Also, composing couldn't have been easy for Borodin, who Tchaikovsky said "possesses talent, a very great talent, which however has come to nothing... He has less taste than Cui, and his technique is so poor that he cannot write a bar without assistance."


Peter Ilyich, bringing the sass... I'm sure you're right, KenOC, that chemistry paid better but I agree with those above who wish AB had composed more. For what it's worth--and Tchaikovsky's snarky assessment notwithstanding--I'll lay odds there are more classical music lovers wishing Borodin had composed more than there are chemists wishing he'd spent more time in his lab!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The best of "The Five"? Except for Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov. 

I also wish Borodin had composed more. I wish I didn't have to head back to teaching next week, but instead could focus upon my own paintings... but obviously art doesn't pay in a great many instances.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The best of "The Five"? Except for Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov.
> 
> I also wish Borodin had composed more. I wish I didn't have to head back to teaching next week, but instead could focus upon my own paintings... but obviously art doesn't pay in a great many instances.


Do you ever sell any paintings? You do have one advantage with the day job: you are not dependent on painting for a living, so you can freely follow your muse. Had Borodin composed full time, he may have been forced to produce light dance music.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I don't know. Borodin had important connections and the concert halls were only getting bigger, he might have succeeded as a full time composer. Liszt championed Borodin whenever he had the opportunity and to some extent he is responsible for the high reputation Borodin later enjoyed in Europe until relatively recently. How much did Rimsky manage to make as a composer?

Debussy and Ravel both revered Borodin's music. The symphonies, Petite Suite and his songs (which Debussy had obtained from Russia) can often be recalled in some pieces of their works.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I need to say that I don't disrespect Borodin at all! Aside from his obvious popular works, his 2nd quartet is possibly the most tuneful thing ever written, and his 2nd symphony is hard to beat. Not sure what Tchaikovsky was talking about...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I don't know. Borodin had important connections and the concert halls were only getting bigger, he might have succeeded as a full time composer. Liszt championed Borodin whenever he had the opportunity and to some extent he is responsible for the high reputation Borodin later enjoyed in Europe until relatively recently. How much did Rimsky manage to make as a composer?


I wonder myself. But then, he first got a salary as fleet officer, and, if memory serves, eventually took up a teaching post.



KenOC said:


> I need to say that I don't disrespect Borodin at all! Aside from his obvious popular works, his 2nd quartet is possibly the most tuneful thing ever written, and his 2nd symphony is hard to beat. Not sure what Tchaikovsky was talking about...


I also like his work, including the first quartet, which also has plenty of exotic tunes. And then also "In the steppes of Central Asia."


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I need to say that I don't disrespect Borodin at all! Aside from his obvious popular works, his 2nd quartet is possibly the most tuneful thing ever written, and his 2nd symphony is hard to beat. Not sure what Tchaikovsky was talking about...


How 'bout that first quartet I may like it better than the second...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Do you ever sell any paintings?

I actually sold a good number of the abstract collages I was making some 5 or 6 years ago. In many ways these were more immediately Modernist and less accessible to the broader audience... but they were also quite small and relatively inexpensive... around $400 each, framed. The current works are more immediately accessible and perhaps more traditional in many ways... but they are also quite big and labor intensive... and thus relatively expensive: $5000 minimum. The erotic element of many of the works also further limits the audience.

You do have one advantage with the day job: you are not dependent on painting for a living, so you can freely follow your muse.

This may be an advantage... or not. One must remember that in most instances the artists of the past were not wholly free to 'follow their muse'; they were commissioned to create a certain image in a certain size within a certain time-frame. We might bristle at the idea of working under such constraints... but the results speak for themselves.

My old tied-in-the-wool Romantic studio mate threw out the question one day: "If a patron came to you and said 'I like your paintings... I'd like to buy 5 of them... but can you do them in red?' what would your response be?" I wouldn't need to worry because I use more red than almost any other color... still my other studio mate chimed in, "I'd say 'f.... you! How soon do you want them, and what shade of red do you prefer?' ":lol: The old Romantic was shocked, declaring that such amounted to "selling out"... but is such any more "selling out" than working at a job that you don't really like... which takes you away from your time to create? Did Borodin hate his job as a Chemist? Or was it but a second aspect of his personality?

I have little doubt that if/when the "day job" becomes too much for me I would be quite a bit more open to the idea of creating work that is more commercial. No... I'm not thinking along the lines of Thomas Kinkade... but probably toning down the nudity.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Ive liked Borodin since I first started getting into classical music seriously nearly forty years ago. I know he's a favourite with as many seasoned classical fans as "Dabblers" His music has also crossed over to the popular music sector. Very highly respected composer!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

There are _plenty_ of really able chemists, whereas....


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Take a spoon full of the pudding. What did he do in chemistry... and... What did he do in music...? Welp.

I love my chemist just as much as the next guy, but if you're that good at composing... Suck it up, live under a bridge, and write for us heathens, will ya'?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The current works are more immediately accessible and perhaps more traditional in many ways... but they are also quite big and labor intensive... and thus relatively expensive: $5000 minimum. The erotic element of many of the works also further limits the audience.


Perhaps time to consider making a few small ones. 



> This may be an advantage... or not. One must remember that in most instances the artists of the past were not wholly free to 'follow their muse'; they were commissioned to create a certain image in a certain size within a certain time-frame. We might bristle at the idea of working under such constraints... but the results speak for themselves.


Pt seems it depends to some extent on the invidual. Some people function better when the pressure's off. With others, it's an excuse to sit around and wait for inspiration.



> Did Borodin hate his job as a Chemist? Or was it but a second aspect of his personality?


As far as I know, Borodin loved chemistry and probably had no desire to quit his job. One can hardly imagine Beethoven or Mozart doing anything other than music.



> I have little doubt that if/when the "day job" becomes too much for me I would be quite a bit more open to the idea of creating work that is more commercial. No... I'm not thinking along the lines of Thomas Kinkade... but probably toning down the nudity.


And as I suggest above, in some pieces perhaps toning down the sheer size - many people simply don't have enough room left in their homes for such large paintings, even if they love the style. Well, at least here in South Africa many of our commercially successful artists produce work ranging from miniatures to paintings as large as the ones you make, likely precisely to expand their potential market.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brianvds said:


> Do you ever sell any paintings? You do have one advantage with the day job: you are not dependent on painting for a living, so you can freely follow your muse. Had Borodin composed full time, *he may have been forced to produce light dance music.*


_*That is what pseudonyms are for!*_


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Borodin was not just any chemist but the leading person in the field during his time. There is a statue of him in Russia that pays tribute for him as an esteemed professor of chemistry, not as a composer. Borodin complained of his many duties in his day job at university, in terms of research and administration, as well as things like babysitting other people's children and looking out for others ahead of himself (he was active as a philanthropist). Much like Mendelssohn, possibly due to sheer overwork, Borodin died of a heart attack at a fancy dress party. He was only in his fifties.

In terms of music, Borodin was quite an individualist amongst the "Mighty Handful" group. He was persuaded to go into composing after meeting Balakirev. Growing out of German influences, chiefly Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Schumann, he developed a style with elements of Orientalism, as well as harmonic and rhythmic elements that prefigure later composers. Examples include that langorous feel, of melodies kind of hanging around and in a state of suspension, influencing Debussy. Borodin's string quartets (which I have enjoyed listening to recently) influenced Ravel and his Polovtsian Dances from Prince Igor have rhythms that look forward to jazz. Aspects of Borodin's symphonies are said to anticipate the techniques of Delius.

Its unlikely though that Borodin would have gone into composition full time, because at the time to do that you had to have some wealthy backer or the government support you. Tchaikovsky had both. Russia was basically feudal with a bit of capitalism. Even though serfdom was abolished around the 1880's, there wasn't the industrial base with a resulting broad middle class - as was beginning to happen in Western Europe at the time - to produce bourgeois composers such as Brahms and Dvorak, with the big publishing house Simrock behind them. There wasn't a market for that kind of thing in Russia, it was too small. Its as if even the economic reforms that occurred in the West didn't happen, even the limited political reforms since the French revolution of 1789.



Badinerie said:


> Ive liked Borodin since I first started getting into classical music seriously nearly forty years ago. I know he's a favourite with as many seasoned classical fans as "Dabblers" His music has also crossed over to the popular music sector. Very highly respected composer!


Yeah, the musical _Kismet_ is entirely made from tunes by Borodin, and the song _Stranger in Paradise _was a big hit for Della Reese back in the '60's (I've got her album "The Classic Della," all songs come from classical tunes).


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Borodin was not just any chemist but the leading person in the field during his time. There is a statue of him in Russia that pays tribute for him as an esteemed professor of chemistry, not as a composer.


I once saw a list of top hundred scientists of all time. Borodin was on the list. Of course, such lists are always a bit subjective, but the man was by no means just another professor of chemistry. Some people just have it all. 

A favourite example from the world of pop music: Brian May, guitarist of the band Queen, has a Ph.D. in astrophysics.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

> Borodin was not just any chemist but the leading person in the field during his time. There is a statue of him in Russia that pays tribute for him as an esteemed professor of chemistry, not as a composer. Borodin complained of his many duties in his day job at university, in terms of research and administration, as well as things like babysitting other people's children and looking out for others ahead of himself (he was active as a philanthropist). Much like Mendelssohn, possibly due to sheer overwork, Borodin died of a heart attack at a fancy dress party. He was only in his fifties.
> 
> In terms of music, Borodin was quite an individualist amongst the "Mighty Handful" group. He was persuaded to go into composing after meeting Balakirev. Growing out of German influences, chiefly Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Schumann, he developed a style with elements of Orientalism, as well as harmonic and rhythmic elements that prefigure later composers. Examples include that langorous feel, of melodies kind of hanging around and in a state of suspension, influencing Debussy. Borodin's string quartets (which I have enjoyed listening to recently) influenced Ravel and his Polovtsian Dances from Prince Igor have rhythms that look forward to jazz. Aspects of Borodin's symphonies are said to anticipate the techniques of Delius.
> 
> Its unlikely though that Borodin would have gone into composition full time, because at the time to do that you had to have some wealthy backer or the government support you. Tchaikovsky had both. Russia was basically feudal with a bit of capitalism. Even though serfdom was abolished around the 1880's, there wasn't the industrial base with a resulting broad middle class - as was beginning to happen in Western Europe at the time - to produce bourgeois composers such as Brahms and Dvorak, with the big publishing house Simrock behind them. There wasn't a market for that kind of thing in Russia, it was too small. Its as if even the economic reforms that occurred in the West didn't happen, even the limited political reforms since the French revolution of 1789.


Insightful post thanks for the contribution. I too have really come to love his string quartets in particular yet I find it ironic you say he influenced Debussy because Debussy is not someone I enjoy but Borodin I had an immediate connection to his work.

It's interesting you brought up his philanthropy, which was a big part of his life. From what I understand he had up to 20 people living in his house, friends and relatives that he just couldn't say no to helping, so much so that sometimes he couldn't even sleep in his own bed because his house dwellers apparently had a penchant for musical beds and he would often find someone had already claimed his bed for the night. Borodin being the lovable pushover would just stake out an armchair to fall asleep on, I can't imagine composing with a full house like that, let alone conducting chemistry experiments...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

brianvds said:


> I once saw a list of top hundred scientists of all time. Borodin was on the list. Of course, such lists are always a bit subjective, but the man was by no means just another professor of chemistry. Some people just have it all.


I believe his articles and research where still studied until recent decades, well into the latter half of the 20th century. It definitely looks like he did important research in that field.



Fugue Meister said:


> Insightful post thanks for the contribution.


You're very welcome. I'm glad this came up because I have been listening and reading about him recently.



> I too have really come to love his string quartets in particular yet I find it ironic you say he influenced Debussy because Debussy is not someone I enjoy but Borodin I had an immediate connection to his work.


I only recently got around to acquiring Borodin's SQ's and I also made that kind of immediate connection. The second quartet is chock full of great melodies, and it ends with this question and answer type movement that suggests him being very familiar with Beethoven's Op. 135. The first quartet is also great although it will take longer to mull over, again Beethoven must have been an influence, its much more contrapuntally complex than the first.



> ....It's interesting you brought up his philanthropy, which was a big part of his life. From what I understand he had up to 20 people living in his house, friends and relatives that he just couldn't say no to helping, so much so that sometimes he couldn't even sleep in his own bed because his house dwellers apparently had a penchant for musical beds and he would often find someone had already claimed his bed for the night. Borodin being the lovable pushover would just stake out an armchair to fall asleep on, I can't imagine composing with a full house like that, let alone conducting chemistry experiments...


I didn't know the extent of it, but sounds like couch-surfing isn't a new phenomenon. Borodin appears to be a very giving person, which is not always the case with composers. In any case, it looks like he was streching himself too far, burning the candle at both ends.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My reading suggests that Borodin was a real mover and shaker in Russian chemistry. He studied quite a bit in the West as well. He wasn't just some guy with a job formulating boot polish.

Good thing he found some time to compose some great works. Not in the volume we might like, but we should be thankful for what he left us.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I love the graceful and subtle style of Borodin, from what I've heard at least (which isn't much admittedly), but I would say R-K and Mussorgsky were the greatest of the 5. If Mussorgsky had not been such a raging alcoholic he might have ended up in a league completely of his own within that group, but as is one can't ignore the influence and music of R-K.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In my opinion, the OP has it backwards. Borodin should have quit composing to do chemistry full time.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Doing chemistry while sick is a bit risky, don't you think?


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## Moraviac (Feb 18, 2011)

I like Borodin a lot, especially his Polowetzian Dances.
I also like the 2nd Symphony and some other stuff?
Next om my listening list is the string quartet no. 2, which I haven't heard yet.


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