# Anima Eterna Beethoven Symphonies



## realmassy

Hi guys,
I'm a almost newbie of the classical world, so please gentle with me 
I'm looking for an complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies and I'm wondering what do you guys think of the Anima Eterna.
I usually like small chamber orchestras (English Chamber Orchestra playing Haydn is magic), and I've listened to Rene Jacob's Mozart symphonies, and love them.
Would you recommend this boxset? Any alternatives?

Cheers!


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## Aramis

Period ensambles like Anima Eterna are good for many composers, but not for Ludwig Van. There is difference between typical classical guy like Haydn and someone like Beethoven who was forwardlooking and revolutionary composer. His music was much ahead of it's time, why perform it with instrumental forces that restricted him in his time and just were not enough for him and his ideas? No, it's out of place, period Beethoven sucks. 

Get Karajan.


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## Genoveva

realmassy said:


> Hi guys,
> I'm a almost newbie of the classical world, so please gentle with me
> I'm looking for an complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies and I'm wondering what do you guys think of the Anima Eterna.
> I usually like small chamber orchestras (English Chamber Orchestra playing Haydn is magic), and I've listened to Rene Jacob's Mozart symphonies, and love them.
> Would you recommend this boxset? Any alternatives?
> 
> Cheers!


There are dozens of threads on the subject of Beethoven symphony sets. Although I'm new here myself, I have easily found what I'm interested in by using the search facility. May I suggest that you try it. All you do is place "anima eterna" in the advanced search box, set it to look for "posts" and hey presto you'll see 19 threads where this version of the symphonies has been discussed on previous occasions.


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## realmassy

You're right Genoveva.
I did a search just after posting the thread and found the infos I'm after.


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## Weston

Aramis said:


> Period ensambles like Anima Eterna are good for many composers, but not for Ludwig Van. There is difference between typical classical guy like Haydn and someone like Beethoven who was forwardlooking and revolutionary composer. His music was much ahead of it's time, why perform it with instrumental forces that restricted him in his time and just were not enough for him and his ideas? No, it's out of place, period Beethoven sucks.
> 
> Get Karajan.


Well said, Aramis!


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## jhar26

Aramis said:


> Period ensambles like Anima Eterna are good for many composers, but not for Ludwig Van. There is difference between typical classical guy like Haydn and someone like Beethoven who was forwardlooking and revolutionary composer. His music was much ahead of it's time, why perform it with instrumental forces that restricted him in his time and just were not enough for him and his ideas? No, it's out of place, period Beethoven sucks.
> 
> Get Karajan.


......or Klemperer.

Haydn was in my opinion also a revolutionary composer though. Considering where classical music was at when he started and where he took it from there his journey was at least as impressive as Beethoven's. Turning the symphony which was nothing more than a little divertimento or an overture from an opera and developing it to such a degree that it became the most important (or at least the most popular) form of orchestral music to this day, virtually inventing the string quartet and piano trio....Despite the fact that his music is very accessible I think he's one of the most revolutionary composers in history.


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## Aramis

> Haydn was in my opinion also a revolutionary composer though. Considering where classical music was at when he started and where he took it from there his journey was at least as impressive as Beethoven's. Turning the symphony which was nothing more than a little divertimento or an overture from an opera and developing it to such a degree that it became the most important (or at least the most popular) form of orchestral music to this day, virtually inventing the string quartet and piano trio....Despite the fact that his music is very accessible I think he's one of the most revolutionary composers in history.


Yes, perhaps I should write more clearly that I meant revolutionary in context of mature classical era.


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## Genoveva

I don't agree with the suggestion that the music of a revolutionary and forward-looking composer, such as Beethoven, sounds better using musical instruments from a later period and by following performance practice from a later period. This simply doesn't follow, unless Beethoven can be assumed to have had the most amazing foresight in anticipating correctly later innovations in these areas that would better suit his music. This is not say that alternative interpretations, other than the one he would have been familiar with in his day, won't sound good, but I can't see why a hip presentation isn't a satisfactory approach too. The fact is that most of the growth area in recent years has been in the period instrument/performance practice area.


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## Guest

I have one of the discs from Anima Eterna, with the 5th symphony, and actually quite enjoy it. I actually think that period instrument performances of Beethoven's symphonies work quite well. I know that several people enjoy this particular cycle. For me, I quite enjoy John Eliot Gardiner's recording of these symphonies - another period performance conductor. If you like the sound of the smaller ensemble, but want modern instruments, then Paavo Jarvi has an excellent new set of recordings of Beethoven's symphonies. For a larger ensemble, I cannot praise highly enough Osmo Vanska's recordings of the symphonies. Karajan is highly recommendable as well. I haven't heard the Klemperer recordings, but am a huge fan of Klemperer. Unless I am mistaken, though, not all of his recordings of the Beethoven symphonies are in stereo - some are mono - and if you want clearer sound, they might not appeal to you. When I first started out listening to classical, I didn't much care for older, pre-stereo recordings. After I got more into it, then I started to appreciate older mono recordings. Along that line, Furtwangler has a recording on EMI of Beethoven's 9th, in mono, which many people find to be the definitive recording.

I definitely don't think you'll go wrong with the Anima Eterna recordings, but don't let them be your only exposure to these symphonies. The faster tempos and leaner sound of these period performances add an energy and excitement that is unique from what you would get from a Karajan or Klemperer recording, but those masters should also not be neglected for what they can do with Beethoven. To me, that is one of the incredible things about Beethoven - how he is so open to interpretation.


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## realmassy

Thanks for your informative reply DrMike.
I already have the Vanska's recordings and I like them, I find the 'Pastoral' excellent for example.

And actually I like the sound of the orchestra on that recording: I don't know how big the orchestra is but it's easy to enjoy every single instrument, it's not a blurry representation.

I'm curious about the Anima Eterna version, so I just placed the order for the boxset 

And I'll keep in mind your suggestion of Eliot Gardiner, cheers for that!


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## Weston

Genoveva said:


> I don't agree with the suggestion that the music of a revolutionary and forward-looking composer, such as Beethoven, sounds better using musical instruments from a later period and by following performance practice from a later period. This simply doesn't follow, unless Beethoven can be assumed to have had the most amazing foresight in anticipating correctly later innovations in these areas that would better suit his music.


I was thinking in terms of his quote (possibly apocryphal) "Do you think I care about your wretched fiddle when the spirit takes hold of me?" Some use this to show how forward thinking he was - others denounce it as shoddy craftsmanship.

But yes, certainly there is nothing wrong with HIP performance if that's what one enjoys. I do enjoy both interpretations.


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## Genoveva

It seems sensible to me that the music of a great composer like Beethoven (the greatest in my book) should sound at its best when performed on the instruments it was written for, and as far as possible using the playing techniques common at the time of composition. On an aesthetic level Beethoven's orchestral works sound better to me on period instruments, but of course this is purely a matter of personal taste. I have certainly heard all varieties of Beethoven's orchestral works as my parents are both classical music fanatics who have just about every well-known recording of the Beethoven symphonies, plus tons of other material. We also have a pretty spectacular hi-fi set up, almost like being in a concert hall.


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## David58117

Aramis said:


> Period ensambles like Anima Eterna are good for many composers, but not for Ludwig Van. There is difference between typical classical guy like Haydn and someone like Beethoven who was forwardlooking and revolutionary composer. His music was much ahead of it's time, why perform it with instrumental forces that restricted him in his time and just were not enough for him and his ideas? No, it's out of place, period Beethoven sucks.
> 
> Get Karajan.


Definitely don't agree!

I've heard a few of the Anima Eterna symphonies, and never once thought their playing sounded "restricted."

Klemperer sounds too lathargic with Beethoven, it's sort of like listening to a Beatles song in slowmotion -

ie: bllllllaaaaaaaccccccckkkkkkkkkk bbbbiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddddd sssssssssinnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggiiiiinnnnnngggggggg iiiiiinnnnnnnnn tttttthhhhhhhhheeeee ddddeeeeeeaaaaaaddddddd offff nnnnnnniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttt.,,

I would get the Anima Eterna & Karajan.


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## elgar's ghost

I find it an interesting argument that Beethoven would have preferred 'modern' instrumentation to interpret his original vision as regards his symphonies. What if they are performed with a 'modern chamber orchestra' - in terms of specific gravity is this really different to a fully-manned 'period orchestra'? I love blood and thunder in Beethoven's symphonies where necessary but surely there are also enough subtleties within all nine works to allow all kinds of interpretations? For example, I can listen to Norrington's cycle as much as I can listen to those of Barenboim and von Karajan and get equal satisfaction from them all - does that make me weird and/or a philistine?


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## realmassy

Well, I got the boxset and listened to first 3 symphonies yesterday: all I can say so far is that I really enjoyed the symphony no.1
It's quite different from the version of Vanska I have.
I'm looking forward to listen to the 5th and my favourite 6th.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Genoveva said:


> It seems sensible to me that the music of a great composer like Beethoven (the greatest in my book) should sound at its best when performed on the instruments it was written for, and as far as possible using the playing techniques common at the time of composition. On an aesthetic level Beethoven's orchestral works sound better to me on period instruments, but of course this is purely a matter of personal taste. I have certainly heard all varieties of Beethoven's orchestral works as my parents are both classical music fanatics who have just about every well-known recording of the Beethoven symphonies, plus tons of other material. We also have a pretty spectacular hi-fi set up, almost like being in a concert hall.


Interesting. I agree with you entirely. I have two other HIP Beethoven cycles: Christopher Hogwood's with The Academy of Ancient Music, and Roger Norrington's with The London Classical Players.


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## superhorn

Whenever you hear a recording of a Beethoven symphony or other work of his,you are hearing a highly idealized attempt to recreate what the music might have sounded like in the early 19th century(and I cannot emphasize the word might enough).
From all reports,the early Beethoven performances were very badly played.The music was appallingly difficult for the musicians and there wasn't remotely close to enough rehearsal time.
The performances were apparently,ragged,tentative and intonation was poor.
So when you hear one of these polished, carefully rehearsed period instrument Beethoven recordings, played by musicians who have known the music from their youth, you are not getting something which is in any way "authentic". 
A truly authentic performance of one of these Beethoven symphonies would be very badly played,and the musicians would probably make more than a few mistakes.
This is not what you get in a studio HIP recording,or a live one which has been edited and doctored to eliminate flaws.
It was not until many years later that the music was actually played reasonably well. 
The Paris conservatoire orchestra,led by Fracois Habaneck, rehearsed the Beehoven symphonies literally for weeks on end before performing them live,and this was some years after Beethoven's death.


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## Genoveva

superhorn said:


> ....So when you hear one of these polished, carefully rehearsed period instrument Beethoven recordings, played by musicians who have known the music from their youth, you are not getting something which is in any way "authentic".
> A truly authentic performance of one of these Beethoven symphonies would be very badly played,and the musicians would probably make more than a few mistakes.
> This is not what you get in a studio HIP recording,or a live one which has been edited and doctored to eliminate flaws....


Clearly no orchestra today of any description is going to put out a commercially recorded Beethoven symphony which is full of playing defects of various sorts. The recording will obviously be honed to sort out as many problems as possible. Presumably that's what most people would want, not the original unedited version.

I dare say that in Beethoven's time a typical performance of any his works might have been quite ragged compared with a modern recorded version, or even a typical live version (HIP or modern). But this doesn't detract from the fact that there was presumably an "ideal" or standard performance culture at the time Beethoven wrote his works which can be researched and applied today. That's all that matters isn't it?


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## SixFootScowl

Am listening to Anima Eterna, Beethoven's 5th symphony, right now and loving it. This set may go to the top of my list along side of Szell as my two favorite renditions.

(Hee, hee, I love to drag up old Beethoven symphony cycle threads.)


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## Guest

Immerseel is fun from time to time, but I find Szell has more staying power - his 3rd is magnificent.


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## DiesIraeCX

Florestan said:


> Am listening to Anima Eterna, Beethoven's 5th symphony, right now and loving it. This set may go to the top of my list along side of Szell as my two favorite renditions.
> 
> (Hee, hee, I love to drag up old Beethoven symphony cycle threads.)


I've been sampling more of Immerseel's set on Spotify, I must admit, it just might be the freshest Beethoven interpretation I've heard.


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## SixFootScowl

Immerseel is very good, but all these period instrument productions that I have heard any of (Immerseel 3, 5, 6, and 9 and Hanover Band) all have a thinness in my ear, where they will never replace a full-bodied set such as Szell. However, they do provide a wonderful, different view of the symphonies.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

As far as 'thinness to the ear' goes, you might be pleasantly surprised by the chunky, dramatic sound of Gardiner. I'm hoping he records all of the symphonies for a second time, four down five to go! I would happily buy that set.


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## Itullian

Florestan said:


> Immerseel is very good, but all these period instrument productions that I have heard any of (Immerseel 3, 5, 6, and 9 and Hanover Band) *all have a thinness in my ear,* *where they will never replace a full-bodied set such as Szell. * However, they do provide a wonderful, different view of the symphonies.


Yup :tiphat:.......................


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## quack

It used to be that fatness was equated with hearty good health, rubicund ventripotence. Nowadays it is more likely to be considered rather differently: immoderate, sickening and tending towards obesity, a major public health concern. Thin is in! it's no longer for malnourished street urchins, sleek and sporty is where it's at, don't be a mouse-potato! That'll be $110, buy my branded dietary supplement.

I liked Immerseel's Beethoven a lot, although I still think I prefer other HIPsters for Beethoven. Where I particularly liked Immerseel was in his Schubert (he definitely knew a lot about fatness.) The Anima Eterna Schubert cycles is definitely my favourite version of those symphonies, very fresh and exciting.


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## Itullian

Yup, speedy, anemic and sterile.
Eat hardly.


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## KenOC

quack said:


> It used to be that fatness was equated with hearty good health, rubicund ventripotence.


The fine ladies of those days were built more for comfort than for speed.


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## Itullian

KenOC said:


> The fine ladies of those days were built more for comfort than for speed.


What days?.............


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## Triplets

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> As far as 'thinness to the ear' goes, you might be pleasantly surprised by the chunky, dramatic sound of Gardiner. I'm hoping he records all of the symphonies for a second time, four down five to go! I would happily buy that set.


 I would second the gardiner and also recommend Hogwood/AAM


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