# pop stars up to 1950



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Who were the big names?

I don't know as much about that era as I should. 

I have a disk of Caruso doing Italian songs, kind of crossover. I have Robert Johnson, Woodie Guthrie, Hank senior, Leadbelly, the Golden Gate Quartet. 

In jazz I know my way around a bit better, but I'll be happy if you threw out names there too just in case you come up with something I don't know!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Coming out of the vaudeville tradition Al Jolson was huge in the early part of the 20th century. He was also so awful that it's impossible to understand now what people saw in him. 

But the most endurable - classic - pre-50's 'pop' comes mostly out of the musical theatre - or from singers interpreting songs that were originally written for the musical theatre. These are now called 'traditional pop' or songs from "the great American song book." Everyone from crooners to big band singers to jazz instrumentalists sung and played these songs. 

In fact, many jazz artists sing and play them up to this day. The most famous songwriters from this era include Rodgers & Hart (later Rodgers & Hammerstein), Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Harold Arlen, Johnny Mercer, George & Ira Gershwin and Jerome Kern. The songs of Duke Ellington - although the Duke is not related to the musical theatre tradition enjoyed (and enjoy) similar popularity.

Bing Crosby was the first legitimate microphone-pop singer to reach superstar status. He was as big as Sinatra really, although now maybe a bit undervalued by the public at large because he did his best work in the era of the 78rpm's while Sinatra had the benefit of working within the album format for much of his career. With Louis Armstrong Bing Crosby was no doubt the most influential and most important vocalist of early popular music.

Big bands were extremely popular during the swing era from the, say, 1930's to mid 1940's when many of those bands disbanded for economic reasons and bebop took over. White bands like those of Glenn Miller, Jimmy Dorsey, Tommy Dorsey and Benny Goodman (to name but a few) were very popular, but most of them were more pop-jazz than 'legitimate' jazz bands with Benny Goodman's band being one of only a few white big bands that were of the same level as their black counterparts that included Fletcher Henderson, Count Basie and the greatest of them all - Duke Ellington. In essence, leaving aside some notable exceptions - the general rule was that the white bands made most of the money and the black bands made most of the great music.

All these big bands also had one or several vocalists among their members and when the big band era started to crumble these singers went out on their own and became huge stars. Peggy Lee for example started her incredible career singing for Benny Goodman, Billie Holiday was associated with Teddy Wilson's band, Doris Day started with Les Brown, June Christy with Stan Kenton, Frank Sinatra with Tommy Dorsey, and so on.

Important names of pre-1950's vocalists include Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong (even more important as instrumentalist and popularizer of dixieland of course), Cab Calloway, Billie Holiday, Mildred Bailey, Fatz Waller, Jo Stafford, Lena Horne and many others. Others like Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Doris Day and June Christy were already doing notable things in the 1940's, but would do most of their really important work later on. Peggy Lee's and Judy Garland's most important work can be found on both sides of the pre-50's - 50's (and onward) dividing line. Vocal groups like the Andrews Sisters and the Boswell Sisters were also very popular.

Of the two genres that were central to the birth of rock'n'roll in the 1950's - country and the blues, only country music was popular with a white audience. People like Robert Johnson only became popular once people like Eric Clapton and those other white British blues guys started playing his songs in the 1960's.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

This page appeared on top of the Google search results and contains links to many other pages:

http://www.lonestar.edu/library/kin_music2.htm


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry - I meant who do you like? Of course I could do something like that. The point was to converse.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

What I find intriguing at the moment include the "kundiman" from the Philippines:






Oum Kalthoum:






1930s calypso music:






Gaucho music:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

OK! That's what I'm talking about! 

Thanks for that!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

science said:


> I don't know as much about that era as I should.


Well nobody has to know a particular amount from any era, it's just a matter of individual choice. Similarly it's an individual's choice who they listen to.

On a sidenote that Oum Kalthoum song is from the 60s, though she had been active many years before that.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm not so laid back. I feel a kind of duty to educate myself.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

science said:


> I'm not so laid back. I feel a kind of duty to educate myself.


So do other people, but maybe in different areas. One person might want to explore as much rap as possible for example to find alot of the best there. So it's all an individual choice.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starry said:


> So do other people, but maybe in different areas. One person might want to explore as much rap as possible for example to find alot of the best there. So it's all an individual choice.


Maybe, but I don't know. It seems to me that a lot of people just enjoy their music. My wife tells me that's what I should do. But it's not my nature.

If there are people who just enjoy the music, I think that's fine.


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## ada123 (Feb 23, 2011)

Yes... I think that this is all the Individual choice,, You can also search for this one.. but wherever I think this one is the best...


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> All these big bands also had one or several vocalists among their members and when the Important names of pre-1950's vocalists include Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong (even more important as instrumentalist and popularizer of dixieland of course), Cab Calloway, Billie Holiday, Mildred Bailey, Fatz Waller, Jo Stafford, Lena Horne and many others. Others like Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Doris Day and June Christy were already doing notable things in the 1940's, but would do most of their really important work later on. Peggy Lee's and Judy Garland's most important work can be found on both sides of the pre-50's - 50's (and onward) dividing line. Vocal groups like the Andrews Sisters and the Boswell Sisters were also very popular.


Gaston, once more I need your expert guidance, and this time in a field completely unknown to me. I accidentally stumbled across a bit of Billie Holiday (without knowing who it was) and was amazed. (All my life, I'd have said that 30s jazz was the One Sure Thing I would never be able to enjoy.) Now, a couple of days further on, I've been listening to bits of Dinah Washington (I melted away when I heard her singing 'I Apologise') and Ivie Anderson, as well as BH, and I've ordered a few cheap CDs of those three to get me going, but I'm doing this entirely in the dark.

Are there any collections of the female vocalists of that period (30s/40s) which you'd particularly recommend? (I can imagine that recording quality in the sense of transfer and cleanup from 78s would be an issue in some cases.)


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Gaston, once more I need your expert guidance, and this time in a field completely unknown to me. I accidentally stumbled across a bit of Billie Holiday (without knowing who it was) and was amazed. (All my life, I'd have said that 30s jazz was the One Sure Thing I would never be able to enjoy.) Now, a couple of days further on, I've been listening to bits of Dinah Washington (I melted away when I heard her singing 'I Apologise') and Ivie Anderson, as well as BH, and I've ordered a few cheap CDs of those three to get me going, but I'm doing this entirely in the dark.
> 
> Are there any collections of the female vocalists of that period (30s/40s) which you'd particularly recommend? (I can imagine that recording quality in the sense of transfer and cleanup from 78s would be an issue in some cases.)


For Billie Holiday I would recommend "Lady Day: The Complete Billie Holiday On Columbia" - a 10 cd box set covering her career from 1933 to 1944. I don't have this box set myself because I already have most of the music included in there by way of the "The Quintessential Billie Holiday" series that were released in the early days of the cd era. So, I don't know how they compare in terms of sound quality. Having said that, considering the improvements in technology since the 1980's I'd be surprised if the box set wouldn't be better. AND, that box set is VERY cheap. It seems to me that you can't go wrong with it.










"The Complete American Decca Recordings" a 2 cd set covering the period 1944-1950 picks up the story where the the Columbia set stops. Stylistically the Decca period is quite different from the Columbia one including recordings with strings and a move towards a more big band sound as opposed to smaller ensembles. It's nevertheless very good though, and many of the recordings of this period have become classics.










I'm not a fan of 50's Billie Holiday because her voice was after decades of drug abuse and boozing basically in shatters at this point. This is just my personal opinion though. Many BH fans like this period, but I don't.

Sarah Vaughan is another giant. Her early period (1940's) is covered nicely by the 4 cd box set "Young Sassy." Attractive price and informative booklet too. However, Sarah Vaughan reached her artistic peak later - in the 1950's and early 60's. Many SV albums can be recommended, but one that is an absolute must to get you started is "Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown."

















Ella Fitzgerald is the third one of the "holy trinity." She too peaked in the 50's and early 60's. Her most famous project(s) are the songbook series - each one of them dedicated to one great songwriter (or songwriting team) from the pre-rock era (Gershwins, Kern, Arlen, Berlin, Porter, etc). Many of these recordings however belong more in the "traditional pop" than the "jazz vocal" category. The're good - great even, but they may not be what you're looking for. One that is definitely jazz (and brilliant) however is "The Duke Ellington Songbook."










Another important name is the sweet voiced Mildred Bailey who's also halfway between pure jazz and traditional pop on many of her recordings. It's great, but it all depends on how far you want to go in that direction. The cheap-ish 4 cd box set "Mrs.Swing" covers the period 1929-1942.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

That's wonderful, and I'll use this as my standard reference point! Thanks ever so much Gaston. I very nearly ordered the 10 CD Holiday set, but drew back because it seemed like overkill to go for that straight away (I don't know how serious this might become) - but from what you say I think I should do that.

What about Dinah Washington? I go completely weak at the knees when she sings 'Stormy Weather', 'I Apologise', and 'Smoke Gets in Your Eyes'. I've ordered these - do they seem like reasonable choices?

















(There doesn't seem to be a collection of her stuff comparable with the Holiday box, but I could have missed something. And at this stage I was trying to spend as little as possible just because I didn't know what the heck I was doing, really.)

I've also orderd a couple of cheap Ivie Anderson collections (there doesn't seem to be much of her around).

*Later:* I notice that both Amazon UK (great price) and Amazon US report being 'temporarily out of stock' of the Holiday box. I hope it's not on the verge of going out of print....


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

You can get the BH box set from Amazon marketplace sellers for the same price.

The Dinah Washington cd's you've ordered seem decent enough. I also love her "Dinah Jams" album, but it's probably better to first wait and see how you like these compilations before you consider buying anything more. There ARE several Dinah Washington box sets though.

A few youtubes from the "Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown" album I menionned in my previous post...











...and the "Ella Fitzgerald sings Duke Ellington Songbook."...


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> You can get the BH box set from Amazon marketplace sellers for the same price.


I'd swear those two 'same price' listings weren't there yesterday! Sadly, I've had fruitless dealings with those particular marketplace sellers before (I believe they're the same, despite two different names). I'll wait and see if Amazon can come up with a set in response to my order, first.



> The Dinah Washington cd's you've ordered seem decent enough. I also love her "Dinah Jams" album, but it's probably better to first wait and see how you like these compilations before you consider buying anything more. There ARE several Dinah Washington box sets though.


Trouble is, I'm at that stage where I know nothing but want to plunge in; already I can see there's a great range of DW styles, ranging from rich husky blues/jazz to (almost) frothy pop, bordering on Shirley Bassey! I shall take your advice and be patient - and in the first instance go for the earlier stuff in all cases, rather than the later.

Thanks for the youtubes.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Trouble is, I'm at that stage where I know nothing but want to plunge in


Yes, but although DW and BH are excellent places to make that plunge there's no need to put all your eggs in one basket because there are more artists than the ones I've mentionned that are worth hearing. And inevitably you will like some better than others and you're still at a stage where you're finding who those are. Don't automatically assume that everything in the (traditional) pop field is rubbish and that everything jazz is great either. Sometimes it's even hard to draw the line between the two. That line exists, but it's blurry and doesn't necessarily say very much about the quality of the music.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Yes, but although DW and BH are excellent places to make that plunge there's no need to put all your eggs in one basket


I think I'm the definitive example of the 'putting eggs all in one basket' syndrome! But seriously, I found myself responding very positively to Billie Holiday, Ivie Anderson, and Dinah Washington, so it's naturally those that I've focused on so far. Something about the special way they use their voices - reminds me of the way Dylan has been singing in recent years, though that may seem an odd thing to say. (And I realise that of course it's the other way round, actually!)



> Don't automatically assume that everything in the (traditional) pop field is rubbish and that everything jazz is great either. Sometimes it's even hard to draw the line between the two. That line exists, but it's blurry and doesn't necessarily say very much about the quality of the music.


I think what I mean is that I'm noticing that range already, purely from the (very small) amount of listening to DW that I've been able to do, digging out stuff from the web. Sometimes she seems to go for the easy effect that sounds impressive at first but after a couple of listenings seems less so (and more like Shirley Bassey). Whereas with something like 'I Apologise', every vowel sound seems phrased for maximum expressive effect (much like Dylan at his best).


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, if those eggs are as cheap as those to be found in that BH box set there's not much of a risk of spending loads of money on something you may not like. Not that there's much of a risk with investing in BH to begin with. Good point about the range of some of these singers.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Talking about diverse singers that blur the line between jazz and pop, here's some Peggy Lee. I've always adored her and I think she has one of the sexiest voices ever. She's undemonstrative, phrases the lyrics beautifully, knows how to "swing quietly" and no matter where the music takes her - she does it with a lot of dignity and style. She's the poster girl for class and good taste as far as I'm concerned.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

.....And June Christy.....





















And the title song of one of the great albums in the genre's history...


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I have some prejudices to overcome in this area. Some of it is 'Mum and Dad's music', which I rebelled against as a kid, and coming back to it now isn't entirely easy because I bring baggage with me. Fortunately Billie Holiday and Avie Anderson are entirely outside that particular dodgy area and I have no such remembered teen angst to battle with. But I had an uncle who snorted mercilessly at my taste in music, maintaining that the Everly Brothers were trash, and Peggy Lee was The Goddess; I have a LOT of prejudice to work at, there! How deep run the scars of these childhood injuries!

At any rate, what I'm being most drawn to are the singers with an earthiness in their voices, touched with the grit of the road hard-travelled.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> I have some prejudices to overcome in this area. Some of it is 'Mum and Dad's music', which I rebelled against as a kid, and coming back to it now isn't entirely easy because I bring baggage with me. Fortunately Billie Holiday and Avie Anderson are entirely outside that particular dodgy area and I have no such remembered teen angst to battle with. But I had an uncle who snorted mercilessly at my taste in music, maintaining that the Everly Brothers were trash, and Peggy Lee was The Goddess; I have a LOT of prejudice to work at, there! How deep run the scars of these childhood injuries!
> 
> At any rate, what I'm being most drawn to are the singers with an earthiness in their voices, touched with the grit of the road hard-travelled.


Well, you're uncle was right that Peggy Lee was a Goddess, even though he was wrong about the Everly Brothers. :lol: Most prejudices make little sense when it comes to music. The're merely barriers that keep us from listening to music we might enjoy.

There's no garantee that you'll ever get into Peggy Lee, June Christy, Sarah Vaughan or any of those gals (or guys for that matter), but I wouldn't rule it out either. All that's needed is that one magical moment when it all sounds right to your ears and the floodgates will open. Just like it did with Mozart, Haydn and now Billie Holiday. It's worth it - it's all great music in it's own way.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Most prejudices make little sense when it comes to music.


Unquestionably so: as far as the music's concerned, they make no sense at all, because they originate somewhere _other than_ the music.


> There's no garantee that you'll ever get into Peggy Lee, June Christy, Sarah Vaughan or any of those gals (or guys for that matter), but I wouldn't rule it out either. All that's needed is that one magical moment when it all sounds right to your ears and the floodgates will open. Just like it did with Mozart, Haydn and now Billie Holiday. It's worth it - it's all great music in it's own way.


I've lost track of the number of prejudices that I've managed to shake off in recent years - and you've been witness to most of those shakings-off, Gaston (and in some cases the instrument of them). I've reached the point now where I don't attach any weight to my own negative judgements simply because they so often turn out to be self-evidently wrong at some later date. You're right - what we're waiting for is that moment when we manage to hear the music with fresh ears (for whatever reason), and the actual thing hits us instead of the distorted image filtered by prejudice.

So I'm ruling nothing out, but for the moment I'm keen to follow up the initial breakthroughs. Which raises my next questions: do you have anything in the way of DVDs of these earlier singers (Holiday and Anderson most especially)? And if so, is there anything you'd recommend? I suspect there can't be much of them preserved on film - I'm slowly looking through youtube and have found a few bits and pieces, but not much so far.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> So I'm ruling nothing out, but for the moment I'm keen to follow up the initial breakthroughs. Which raises my next questions: do you have anything in the way of DVDs of these earlier singers (Holiday and Anderson most especially)? And if so, is there anything you'd recommend? I suspect there can't be much of them preserved on film - I'm slowly looking through youtube and have found a few bits and pieces, but not much so far.


No, not really. Problem is that there was no television in the 1930's and 40's and the movie industry wasn't open to black performers unless they were (in the case of men) willing to play the village idiot or (in the case of women) a maid. I remember a decent documentary on the telly some years ago about Billie Holiday, but most of the live footage was from the 1950's when she was (in my opinion, though not necessarily other people's) already past it. It was ok, but not something I would watch more than one time. Maybe there's a DVD compilation out there with the best bits of footage from the various jazz singers of the 30's and 40's, but I don't know.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*Louis Jordan* was pretty big in the pre-war R&B world. He lived & worked until the 1970's & influenced rock n'roll quite a bit. I like his sense of humour...

"Buzz me baby"






"Caldonia"






"Saturday Night Fish-Fry"


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> most of the live footage was from the 1950's when she was (in my opinion, though not necessarily other people's) already past it.


I came across this in my youtube travels. It seems to be a very famous bit of film (well, famous to other people, but not to me of course), and I suppose that's partly because there's so very little available. Still I must say, it's an extraordinary bit of footage.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> I came across this in my youtube travels. It seems to be a very famous bit of film (well, famous to other people, but not to me of course), and I suppose that's partly because there's so very little available. Still I must say, it's an extraordinary bit of footage.


Yes, this is an extraordinary bit of footage, and with an an all star band as well.

.....but this is also 1950's BH and more clearly demonstrates the vocal problems she had at this point. Some don't object to this - in fact for some this is even their favorite period, or as good in it's own way as her 30's or 40's output, but I disagree....






[YT][/YT]


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

science said:


> Sorry - I meant who do you like? Of course I could do something like that. The point was to converse.


Important to ask the right question to get the right responses


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> .....but this is also 1950's BH and more clearly demonstrates the vocal problems she had at this point. Some don't object to this - in fact for some this is even their favorite period, or as good in it's own way as her 30's or 40's output, but I disagree....


Very interesting, this. I'm reminded of the arguments that rage about which was Dylan's 'best' period. My favourite is 1995-2000, for instance. Many would say the voice was shot to pieces by then, but the bootleg live performances show that he'd learned to use it to its utmost. On the other hand, the last time I actually saw him live (2003) it was too much for me. The voice was rags and tatters, and I couldn't cope with it. Others thought differently.

Seems like the same kind of thing goes on with BH. That recording you offer, there, presents all the problems of late Dylan, but also some of its brave strength, in quite a heart-breaking way. The balance point hovers in different places for each of us I guess.

Incidentally, I realised today that all this time I've been rather stupidly using the wrong word. I spoke of _prejudice_ getting in the way of some of this stuff, but actually I mean _conditioning_. I don't 'prejudge' someone like Peggy Lee - because I've heard quite a lot of her - but I do have some unfavourable conditioning - dodgy personal associations - to overcome (nothing to do with the quality of the actual music of course). I'm not reopening that conversation, just clarifying what I was trying to say, then, even though it's of interest to no one but me!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Very interesting, this. I'm reminded of the arguments that rage about which was Dylan's 'best' period. My favourite is 1995-2000, for instance. Many would say the voice was shot to pieces by then, but the bootleg live performances show that he'd learned to use it to its utmost. On the other hand, the last time I actually saw him live (2003) it was too much for me. The voice was rags and tatters, and I couldn't cope with it. Others thought differently.
> 
> Seems like the same kind of thing goes on with BH. That recording you offer, there, presents all the problems of late Dylan, but also some of its brave strength, in quite a heart-breaking way. The balance point hovers in different places for each of us I guess.


Yes, I see what you mean. For me the (by conventional standards) poor state of late Dylan's voice is less of an issue than it is in the case of late Billie Holiday. It to a large degree has to do with our expectations of course. I often feel that Dylan's gravely voice is more suited to his material than a pretty voice would be (although there are lots of good Dylan covers by pretty voiced singers of course). For the standards that Billie Holiday sang however "the ideal" for me is different from what she was still able to deliver in the tail-end of her career.

As for Dylan's favorite period, not that it's necessarily quite up there with Highway 61 Revisited, Blonde on Blonde or Blood on the Tracks, but I think he's been doing great (again) the last dozen years or so. Ever since Time Out of Mind really.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Check out the Proper Music catalog. They have a ton of budget priced collections and box sets from the 30s, 40s, and early 50s. http://www.propermusic.com/

I bought five 4-CD box sets from Amazon vendors for around 11-13 dollars each. Unlike many other budget sets, Proper boxes come with detailed 40 + page booklets in an attractive slipcase. Very nice quality for the low price.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

starthrower said:


> Check out the Proper Music catalog. They have a ton of budget priced collections and box sets from the 30s, 40s, and early 50s. http://www.propermusic.com/
> 
> I bought five 4-CD box sets from Amazon vendors for around 11-13 dollars each.


They are excellent, yes. Those Mildred Bailey and Sarah Vaughan box sets I mentionned earler are 4-cd sets from proper. They have a lot of interesting stuff on offer for attractive prices. Thanks for the link.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

One of my Dinah Washington orders arrived yesterday. The marketplace seller actually sent the wrong item, so instead of the 2CD set 'The Masters' I ended up with the 3CD 'Golden Greats' collection.










As it happens, I'm thrilled to bits with this and happy to keep it - the music is fantastic (though there's no documentation beyond a mere tracklist, which is unhelpful for someone who knows nothing, like me).


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

What period does it cover, Alan?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> What period does it cover, Alan?


Well that's the problem. There's NO documentation at all beyond the tracklist. There are titles and names of orchestras, but no dates.

One thing I'm already starting to notice is an apparent unevenness in the commitment of DW's performances. Some are electrifying, but in other cases I have the feeling that she's relying on a kind of vocal trick which is initially impressive but soon wears a bit thin. Billie Holiday, on the other hand, seems to tackle each song as if it really is something new. But these are early days, and these are just my tyro reactions popping out.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I've been making some discoveries. There's something particularly thrilling about discovering performers whose names I'd never heard so much as a whisper of, and this is an area where the internet comes into its own. A lot of this stuff, being out of copyright, is around on the web for free - so it's possible to hear quite a lot of them before committing to seeking out a CD or two. Bille Holiday needs no introduction (even to me), so first up is Ivie Anderson. There are several CDs of her singing with Duke Ellington - out of print but still findable:

















She has a wonderful sense of buoyant rhythm, and I'd defy anyone to listen to 'It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing' and remain still. I love the way these 'thirties' guys structured their songs, by the way, with 60-90 seconds of instrumental intro (often with a virtuoso solo or two); then singing for about a minute; then an instrumental conclusion. By the end of each song it feels as I've been on a pretty rich and inventive journey.

Next up comes the wonderful Helen Ward:

















She did a lot of her singing with Benny Goodman, beginning in her late teens I believe. She seems to hover in a kind of swing/pop territory; might be thought a bit lightweight perhaps, and yet she gets some _delightful_ phrasings in her vocals; and I was amazed to discover just how many of her songs I was already familiar with.

Then there's the bright and breezy Dolly Dawn:










A sweetheart, indeed. She started out as the singer with the George Hall orchestra and became so popular that he handed the orchestra over to her, and it became The Dawn Patrol! She really does bubble all over the place.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Some youtubes:

Ivie Anderson singing 'It don't mean a thing':






Helen Ward singing 'Goody Goody':






And finally a bit of actual film of Dolly Dawn singing:






This is a bottomless well of music, it seems, with new delights emerging every time I pull the bucket up.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Alan, if you like Helen Ward's recordings with Benny Goodman there may be a way for you to get into Peggy Lee as well. Like Ward Peggy Lee was Goodman's vocalist in the early part of her career. There are several Peggy Lee compilations that focus exclusively on her work with Goodman. Seriously, I predict that at one point (a month from now, a year from now, five years from now,...) you'll get into Peggy Lee. Really, she's essential. 

Yes, I also have one of those Ivie Anderson compilations of her work with Duke Ellington and she's great. I'm not sure if it makes sense for me to buy more though because I think a lot of those cd's cover the same material. If you like the "intro/solo/vocal/instrumental conclusion" approach you'll really enjoy lots of Billie Holiday's work from the 1930's.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Alan, if you like Helen Ward's recordings with Benny Goodman there may be a way for you to get into Peggy Lee as well. Like Ward Peggy Lee was Goodman's vocalist in the early part of her career. There are several Peggy Lee compilations that focus exclusively on her work with Goodman. Seriously, I predict that at one point (a month from now, a year from now, five years from now,...) you'll get into Peggy Lee. Really, she's essential.
> 
> Yes, I also have one of those Ivie Anderson compilations of her work with Duke Ellington and she's great. I'm not sure if it makes sense for me to buy more though because I think a lot of those cd's cover the same material. If you like the "intro/solo/vocal/instrumental conclusion" approach you'll really enjoy lots of Billie Holiday's work from the 1930's.


Yes, there are a lot of duplications in some of those compilations.

I'm sure you're right about Peggy Lee, Gaston. At the moment I seem to be _especially_ drawn to the thirties (as you can see from the little selection of CDs I put up in my post), and enjoying the pleasure of trying to find free uploaded recordings of each singer, burning my own compilation CDs, and cobbling together some artwork to fit. It's a retreat into a kind of audiovisual fantasy world of late Art Deco, Jazz and Swing, and suddenly I don't seem to have time for anything else!

I just heard from Amazon that they're about to send me the 'Complete Billie Holiday on Columbia' box, happily at the nice low price I'd hoped for, so I expect in a few days' time I'll be submerged even more deeply.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Here's a new question, about the famous 1938 Benny Goodman concert at Carnegie Hall.

There's a recent reissue of this, which seems to have caused some controversy:










Details here.

This looks like great value (4cds and a heap of additional stuff, in addition to the concert), but opinion is divided over whether the reprocessing has been a good thing or not. Most particularly, some seem unhappy about the little glitches in tempo that occur.

I have almost all of the actual music from this show (it's available for free, from kind souls who've made mp3s from the original release - now public domain, I suppose), and actually it's very listenable, despite some surface noise etc.. But the more recent reissues like this one have the whole concert as a continuous performance, rather than just the music, and the question is - does anyone own this recent (2006) Avid 4cd box; and if so would they recommend it?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I don't know, Alan. I only have the two cd version that was released in the late 1980's.

BTW - have you tried any Bessie Smith? She's the most important blues singer of the 1920's and early 30's (the greatest in history according to some). She died in very dramatic circumstances in 1937 in a car accident, losing an arm. Her grave was unmarked until Janis Joplin payed for a tombstone in 1970. But anyway, she's definitely one of the greats of her time.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> BTW - have you tried any Bessie Smith?


Oh she's on my list, certainly. I've heard a little (a bit more now, thanks to your youtubes), and I'm aware of her reputation, though she's out on the edge of my 'comfort zone'. At the moment I'm enjoying digging around in the swing stuff that really is very easy to like, from that period. Like Edythe Wright (with Tommy Dorsey):






and Helen Forrest (with Artie Shaw):






Helen Ward is still the one I'm in love with though:


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

My copy of this 2CD set arrived a couple of days ago - previously I'd only been listening to Helen Ward via downloaded public domain recordings transferred from 78s by kind enthusiasts. So for the first time it's possible for me to listen to her Columbia recordings in chronological order.  What stands out from this is the phenomenal electric charge injected into her performances from the moment she started recording with Benny Goodman. The first few tracks, recorded with others, are quite tediously bland. Then suddenly: Wham. It's not just that the instrumental playing is so much better (though it is, of course) but that she herself gets so much better, integrating perfectly into the whole.

I also discover that the track 'I'll never say never again again' (which contains such wonderfully nuanced singing by her that I just couldn't imagine how a 19-year-old could have mastered the art so thoroughly) was made not in the mid 1930s (as I'd supposed) but in 1953, when she briefly joined BG again to make a few recordings. So my supposed 19-year-old turned out to be 37!


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

So where do we stand on Anita O'Day, folks? I have these two collections:

















The first of these is terrific value - 2 CDs, with 4 of her albums. The first album 'Anita Sings The Most'), recorded with Oscar Peterson on piano, is quite outstanding. She swings like a trooper, and so does he, and if this is jazz then I like it a lot! The second CD is perhaps less obviously jazz-orientated - as much of a 'standards' collection as she'd ever have made, I think, (given her propensity to improvise in all kinds of subtle ways). But I am really enjoying all these recordings, and I want more!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

"Pick Yourself Up" is another great Anita O'Day album, Alan.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

....Also, try to get a copy of this one. One of the most underrated (but best) albums of the genre in my opinion.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I have _Pick Yourself Up_ currently on order Gaston - thanks; also _Time For Two_. In fact I'm rapidly becoming completely entranced by Anita O'Day, and the chances are that I won't be content until I have all the available albums. Do you have the Proper Box 'Young Anita? I know it'll be different - material from the heart of the swing era - but what I've heard so far of her earlier stuff sounds pretty good, so I'll probably get it.

Her version of 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered' is _outstanding_. I play it every day and find myself hanging on every nuance of phrasing, every syllable, every note. For anyone who hasn't heard it, here it is:






I'll put Helen Merrill on my list of 'to be investigated'.

Meanwhile, I'm also enjoying this enormously:










I'm starting to realise that the real treasures of Benny Goodman's recordings are among those with trio and quartet. The interplay between instruments is so much more clearly articulated and often seems more inspired, even, than the big band material. This collection - 2 CDs worth of brilliance - costs a mere £5, and I feel as if I've robbed the publisher!


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Sarah Vaughan (1824-1990) was one of the best jazz singers of all time. Maybe not as famous as the most popular stars like Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holiday but with a lovely voice and great career.


























I specially enjoy a soft and melancholic single called "Lover man".


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Sarah Vaughan (1824-1990) was one of the best jazz singers of all time. Maybe not as famous as the most popular stars like Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holiday but with a lovely voice and great career.


Thanks for your tips. I'm just making a start on Sarah Vaughan, with the box I described earlier in this thread. Do you have the Proper Box 4CD set 'Young Sassy' that Gaston recommends, by any chance?


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Thanks for your tips. I'm just making a start on Sarah Vaughan, with the box I described earlier in this thread. Do you have the Proper Box 4CD set 'Young Sassy' that Gaston recommends, by any chance?


No, as a fond of old recordings I have gathered a selection of her bests on 78rpm and LP during years. I don't know that Box 4CD set of Sarah Vaughan, but intended to buy CDs and listen to better quality remastered songs. I didn't find the post you said, so do you recommend that Box "Young Sassy" or the three I've described above ? 
Oh, and you like Dinah Washington too. Lovely voice ! Absolutely !


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Il_Penseroso said:


> I didn't find the post you said, so do you recommend that Box "Young Sassy" or the three I've described above ?


The post I was referring to by Gaston was this one.

I'm not familiar enough yet with Sarah Vaughan to say much. I do now have the 'Young Sassy' box, but haven't listened to anything yet beyond the first of its four CDs - I was sidetracked by the discovery of Anita O'Day, who has swept me away.

I see there's a good value box of Dinah Washington in the 'Proper Box' series, but I don't know what it's like. I shall try it at some point. I agree - her voice is astoundingly expressive.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> The post I was referring to by Gaston was this one.
> 
> I'm not familiar enough yet with Sarah Vaughan to say much. I do now have the 'Young Sassy' box, but haven't listened to anything yet beyond the first of its four CDs - I was sidetracked by the discovery of Anita O'Day, who has swept me away.
> 
> I see there's a good value box of Dinah Washington in the 'Proper Box' series, but I don't know what it's like. I shall try it at some point. I agree - her voice is astoundingly expressive.


Ok ! Thanks !

Anyone here listened to Jelly Roll Morton (1885-1941) early jazz pianist and composer ? He was one of the first jazz recording artists. I know only his "Jelly Roll Blues". So, any recommendation ?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I wrote a long post about Anita O'Day yesterday, clicked the wrong button by mistake ... and it was gone. Infuriating. So here's a shorter version!

There's something about this singer - of whom I'd never heard until a few weeks ago - that poleaxes me. What I find astonishing is that she seems to be almost unknown outside the jazz circle. Even I, jazz ignoramus that I am, have known about (and _heard_) Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, and Billie Holiday for as long as I can remember. But Anita O'Day? Not at all. Yet she seems to be a real adventuress in her singing - a big risk taker in her improvising - and exploring new ways of expression as she worked with different musicians. I started my explorations with these two collections:

















And these are excellent - effectively six original albums on three CDs (one is a 2CD set). But they didn't prepare me for the shock of these two, which arrived a couple of days ago:

















Admittedly these are later (1962/63, compared with the earlier ones from the 50s), but what's immediately obvious is that in each case she's trying something new. What I'm starting to realise is first, that I can't predict what an Anita O'Day album will be like in advance (there's no 'formula'); and second, that each of her performances rewards continued, repeated listening. In fact the careful listening is essential if I'm to pick up the nuances of phrasing, the astonishing rhythmic risk-taking which quite often escape my notice on a first hearing.

For example: the famous performances of 'Georgia Brown' and 'Tea For Two' on the _Jazz on a Summer's Day_ movie (1958 Newport Jazz Festival) disappointed me at first. It seemed too flashily virtuosic, to someone who had discovered her meltingly fine recording of 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered' the previous week. But how wrong first impressions can be. Since then I've watched her Newport '58 performance more than a dozen times, hanging on every phrase, word, and syllable, and have become completely won over by her evident pleasure in her own performance. (What a good idea it was to buy the DVD of that festival.)

So I'm now very much set on an Anita O'Day odyssey. I'm reading her autobiography, and am in the process of trying to get hold of more of her albums - fortunately she recorded a lot. Meanwhile, in case there's anyone out there who, like me until recently, hasn't discovered her Newport Festival performance, here it is:






She described it later as the great highlight of her life.


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## robert (Feb 10, 2007)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Sarah Vaughan (1824-1990) was one of the best jazz singers of all time. Maybe not as famous as the most popular stars like Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holiday but with a lovely voice and great career.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To me she is the most famous.....then I like Carmen.. Billie comes in third....


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## robert (Feb 10, 2007)

see text below......


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## robert (Feb 10, 2007)

jhar26 said:


> For Billie Holiday I would recommend "Lady Day: The Complete Billie Holiday On Columbia" - a 10 cd box set covering her career from 1933 to 1944. I don't have this box set myself because I already have most of the music included in there by way of the "The Quintessential Billie Holiday" series that were released in the early days of the cd era. So, I don't know how they compare in terms of sound quality. Having said that, considering the improvements in technology since the 1980's I'd be surprised if the box set wouldn't be better. AND, that box set is VERY cheap. It seems to me that you can't go wrong with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


love that album with Brown


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Just ordered that "Four Classic Albums" set, Alan, although I already have "Anita Sings the Most."


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Just ordered that "Four Classic Albums" set, Alan, although I already have "Anita Sings the Most."


Well, in my view you already have the best of the four by some distance - the combination of O'Day and Peterson is phenomenal. That's not to say the other three albums aren't worth having by any means - they most certainly are. And the whole 2CD package is excellent value. But that single album with Peterson is outstanding.

I have some other orders in: the _Pick Yourself Up_ album you recommended; plus the _Young Anita _Proper Box; and also _Anita Sings the Winners _which has the live _At Mister Kelly's _stuck onto it as a bonus. Oh, and also the two-album combination _Incomparable_ coupled with _Waiter Make Mine Blues_.

What about the DVD _Life of a Jazz Singer?_ Do you have that Gaston? Any good?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

No, I don't have that DVD, Alan.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> No, I don't have that DVD, Alan.


I think I'll buy it actually, and will report back. I gather it's two discs - one with the 'story', and another of performances. I'm presently reading her autobiography which is a long way from being the kind of thing I normally read, but I'm finding it quite compelling. She lived with the kind of barely-controlled reckless abandon with which she sang.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Time for a bit of an update. I become more and more enchanted by Anita O'Day the more I hear. She never repeats herself, for one thing. Each album seems to constitute a new experiment in 'song styling' (she described herself not as a singer, but a 'song stylist'); and often she's singing with a different group of musicians, with different arrangements, and doing so in a way that produces a satisfying and new kind of whole. Some of the albums are really outstanding (though I must say I've yet to hear a bad one). Gaston mentioned this one earlier:










The original part of the album (there are bonus tracks on the CD) is superb, and there's hardly a moment when her inspiration flags. I suppose this is where her wonderful recorded restylings of 'Sweet Georgia Brown' begin - culminating in that performance at Newport in 1958.

But really whatever album I try, I'm impressed with her inventiveness. Take this CD for instance:










This is two original albums welded together. The first, _Incomparable!_, is, er, well, incomparable - wonderful singing with a big band sound. Then there's a complete shift of gear when we switch to the _Waiter Make Mine Blues_ album halfway through the CD; the concert hall gives way to the late-night bar, the bluesy mood, the low-key, more intimate instrumentation.

I should say a little about the DVD 'Life of a Jazz singer'. It so happened that my copy was faulty, and I wasn't able to see it all. It was OK for a single watching, as far as it went (about 40 minutes). But when I was given the option of a refund rather than an exchange (because Amazon were out of stock), I was content to take the refund. Seems to me that with her autobiography, and her Newport _look-at-my-big-hat-and-white-gloves_ performance on DVD, and a good collection of her albums, I probably have enough to be going on with.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2011)

Just a bit regarding billie holiday have you listened to "Strange Fruit" a protest song and one of her standards made famous with her recording in 1939.


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