# Annoying plot holes in opera story lines?



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

As a mystery novelist, and also one who writes mystery reviews, I'm always on the lookout for plot holes. These abound on TV crime shows, fewer in movies, fewer still in books (where the author is the primary creator and therefore knows all the tweaks). Nevertheless they do occur. If they're egregious, they can spoil the whole story line. If less, simply annoying.

So... what are the most egregious or annoying plot holes in opera story lines? Now, understand, within an opera story, we can have dragons and witches and so on, just so long as they are consistent with the "universe" of the overall plot, they're okay. Likewise occasional silly behavior by the princess or prince or whomever, such as falling in love instantly or mindlessly following a sorcerer's orders. That behavior is still acceptable since it fits within the framework of the social or conceptual environment of the opera's overall premise.

For me, the annoying plot hole errors I'm thinking of could be these:

1- Rigoletto, when Rig is somehow persuaded by the courtiers that Ceprano's wife will be kidnapped, he holds the ladder (or whatever the stage production has him doing) to help the plot, and somehow is tricked into helping snatch his own daughter. No matter how it's staged, it's clumsy and unbelievable (this within an opera in which the other events are fairly realistic and quite believable). The new Met production, set in 1960s Las Vegas, had some sort of goofy elevator nonsense that was completely whacky.

2- Masked Ball, the scene at the witch's den, where the king is totally mistaken as a congenial seaman who tells some tall tales, and then, in the act of just taking off his hat for pete's sake, is now recognized as the king. Gimme a break.

What plot holes or plot errors have irritated you? And have they just been annoying or have they spoiled the story completely? (not necessarily the music, however)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think the most obvious one is the return of the lovers as "Albanians" in Cosi fan Tutte. I simply don't see how a pair of false moustaches and a silly hat is going to fool anybody, although it is true that we humans are less good at noticing what we don't expect than we like to think we are (vide the famous "invisible man in gorilla suit experiment").


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Il Trovatore is just one long, two-hour plot hole.

...but the music is nice!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've always thought that _La Traviata _should have a second scene in Act I. As it is, the transition between Violetta and Alfredo first speaking to each other at the party and them living together in the countryside feels a bit abrupt. But then, I suppose the opera is supposed to be episodic.

*Celloman*: I used to think the same thing about _Il Trovatore _; I thought it seemed like a series of effective "episodes" (i.e. great musical numbers) with awkward transitions between them. However, I've come to find, through really listening to and examining the opera and its libretto, that it is supposed to be like a series of nightmarish episodes guided by an overriding fate (I know that phrase sounds nonesensical, but it's the best one I can think of that the moment for what I mean).

To be honest, it has always puzzled me when people say, "That opera has a stupid plot, but the music is great" -- as though the plot and the music are two entirely seperate things. To me, the plot and the music of an opera have always seemed_ inseperable_; in other words, the plot is as good as the music is, because it is through the medium of music that the plot is expressed. Basically, the plot and the music are one and the same to me. (I don't mean to pick on you personally, Celloman; I'm just saying why that particular phrase doesn't make any sense to me.)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

At the Tales of Hoffmann I saw in San Francisco last month, at the end of the Giulietta segment (which they did third) Hoffmann is being pursued by the police for killing Schlemihl. The police are on stage and about to close in, and the chorus is singing about how Hoffmann is going to hang. Dapertutto steps in and says "I don't need Giulietta any more" and lures her - using the big *** diamond - onto Hoffmann's sword. She falls dead. End of scene. He wakes up in the bar, and the Stella scene begins. 

...so what, he hung, and the second bar scene is all some kind of Occurrence at Owl Creek thing? Killing Giulietta made up for killing Schlemihl? The cops all said, well, that's all right then, and wandered off? :lol: It was pretty irritating...


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> At the Tales of Hoffmann I saw in San Francisco last month, at the end of the Giulietta segment (which they did third) Hoffmann is being pursued by the police for killing Schlemihl. The police are on stage and about to close in, and the chorus is singing about how Hoffmann is going to hang. Dapertutto steps in and says "I don't need Giulietta any more" and lures her - using the big *** diamond - onto Hoffmann's sword. She falls dead. End of scene. He wakes up in the bar, and the Stella scene begins.
> 
> ...so what, he hung, and the second bar scene is all some kind of Occurrence at Owl Creek thing? Killing Giulietta made up for killing Schlemihl? The cops all said, well, that's all right then, and wandered off? :lol: It was pretty irritating...


"An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" -- that's a good reference!

From what you describe, it sounds as if in the production you saw Hoffmann's tales were just that -- tales, stories Hoffmann made up to help him come to terms with his past and his wasted life, and to entertain his friends in the tavern. He is, after all, a poet. I read a book (_First Intermissions _by Father M. Owen Lee) that explains how Hoffmann's "tales" -- the Olympia, Antonia, and Giulietta Acts -- can be taken either as actual flashbacks to the past, most likely with some poetic embellishments, or they can be taken as _mere stories_ that are not _literally_ true but have a kind of "core" or "overriding" truth to them in that they contain keys to Hoffmann's past or to his character.


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## Downbeat (Jul 10, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think the most obvious one is the return of the lovers as "Albanians" in Cosi fan Tutte. I simply don't see how a pair of false moustaches and a silly hat is going to fool anybody, although it is true that we humans are less good at noticing what we don't expect than we like to think we are (vide the famous "invisible man in gorilla suit experiment").


As Victor Borge said: "Either they pretend or they're just plain stupid!"


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## Downbeat (Jul 10, 2013)

In the last act of Don Giovanni a couple of the opera's richest arias musically are really let down by the fact that nothing was really going on in the plot...I believe these (or some of them) are left out of some productions.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Downbeat said:


> In the last act of Don Giovanni a couple of the opera's richest arias musically are really let down by the fact that nothing was really going on in the plot...I believe these (or some of them) are left out of some productions.


Maybe -- but it would be hard for me to imagine "Mi tradi," "Il mio Tesoro," or "Non mi dir" being deleted from a performance of _Don Giovanni_. Perhaps that was true in the distant past, like when Mozart's operas were being "rediscovered" and when the Epilogue (i.e. everything after the Don is dragged to Hell) was regularly deleted, but it's hard to believe that today any of those arias would be deleted.

I agree that the whole sequence from "Mi tradi" to "Non mi dir" (which is, though, interrupted by the graveyard scene) can seem slow, but to me those arias are necessary because they give the other characters a chance to tell us who the Don is _to them_. It's sort of like with the Count in his aria in _Nozze di Figaro_ -- before that point, we didn't really "know" him very well; we saw him mostly from the other characters' perspectives.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Downbeat said:


> As Victor Borge said: "Either they pretend or they're just plain stupid!"


in keeping with the plot, they probably pretend so they can make fun of their easily manipulated boyfriends.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> I've always thought that _La Traviata _should have a second scene in Act I. As it is, the transition between Violetta and Alfredo first speaking to each other at the party and them living together in the countryside feels a bit abrupt. But then, I suppose the opera is supposed to be episodic.
> 
> *Celloman*: I used to think the same thing about _Il Trovatore _; I thought it seemed like a series of effective "episodes" (i.e. great musical numbers) with awkward transitions between them. However, I've come to find, through really listening to and examining the opera and its libretto, that it is supposed to be like a series of nightmarish episodes guided by an overriding fate (I know that phrase sounds nonesensical, but it's the best one I can think of that the moment for what I mean).
> 
> To be honest, it has always puzzled me when people say, "That opera has a stupid plot, but the music is great" -- as though the plot and the music are two entirely seperate things. To me, the plot and the music of an opera have always seemed_ inseperable_; in other words, the plot is as good as the music is, because it is through the medium of music that the plot is expressed. Basically, the plot and the music are one and the same to me. (I don't mean to pick on you personally, Celloman; I'm just saying why that particular phrase doesn't make any sense to me.)


Problem is that rules out my enjoyment of most opera as most have implausible plots!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think the most obvious one is the return of the lovers as "Albanians" in Cosi fan Tutte. I simply don't see how a pair of false moustaches and a silly hat is going to fool anybody, although it is true that we humans are less good at noticing what we don't expect than we like to think we are (vide the famous "invisible man in gorilla suit experiment").


I agree! The plot is also the work of a misogynist womaniser. But what music!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Another is Fidelio where we are asked to believe the heroine (built like a dramatic soprano) could get away with living close at hand with a family disguised as a boy. But Beethoven's music convinces us it could just have happened.

Let's face it many operas have implausible plots. But does it matter as opera is an art which by nature expects us to suspend our disbelief. I mean these people are singing instead of speaking! Normal life is just not like that! When we get past that barrier anything is possible!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

In Lohengrin we are I'll still believe that the knight arrives on a boat called by a swan. There is a story, whether true or not I do not know, that Melchior was performing this opera. When at the end it came time for him to sail away with his swan something went wrong and the swan went without him. He is reported to have turned to the audience and said 'when does the next swan leave?'


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Problem is that rules out my enjoyment of most opera as most have implausible plots!


How so? What I'm saying is that the music fleshes out the plot and makes it "plausible."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> How so? What I'm saying is that the music fleshes out the plot and makes it "plausible."


The music does not make the plot any more plausible - to the rational mind. What it does is to lull us into suspending our disbelief so we actually believe in the implausible happenings on the stage.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The music does not make the plot any more plausible - to the rational mind. What it does is to lull us into suspending our disbelief so we actually believe in the implausible happenings on the stage.


Well, no, it doesn't make the plot any more plausible to the rational mind -- but in opera, as in all of the arts, we are meant to respond principally with our emotions.

The point I'm trying to make has really to do with that statement, "This opera has a stupid plot but great music." This is said as though the plot and the music are experienced _separately_. But they aren't experienced separately; they are experienced _together_ in an opera -- they are intertwined. You say that the music helps us suspend our disbelief so that we accept a silly plot easily; but I'd rather say that the music _deepens_ the plot and makes it into something _far beyond_ what could be summarized in a written plot synopsis.

I think we're actually saying the same thing, but from different standpoints and with different aims.
Edited to add: Or maybe the problem lies with the use of the word "plot" -- if by "plot" is meant just a series of events (i.e. "what happens in the story"). Rather than "plot," maybe for opera we should use a term like "emotional trajectory."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Well, no, it doesn't make the plot any more plausible to the rational mind -- but in opera, as in all of the arts, we are meant to respond principally with our emotions.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make has really to do with that statement, "This opera has a stupid plot but great music." This is said as though the plot and the music are experienced _separately_. But they aren't experienced separately; they are experienced _together_ in an opera -- they are intertwined. You say that the music helps us suspend our disbelief so that we accept a silly plot easily; but I'd rather say that the music _deepens_ the plot and makes it into something _far beyond_ what could be summarized in a written plot synopsis.
> 
> ...


Agreed! We are the same thing in different ways!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Celloman said:


> Il Trovatore is just one long, two-hour plot hole.


The bit that always bugs me about Trovatore is how Leonora takes the poison before she has made sure that Manrico gets away safely. I'm always shouting at the screen "Noooo! Staaahp!"


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The 10 silliest operas that you really have to hear - from Limelight magazine

There are some real humdingers here. I think that the "_accidentally marrying a dead nun_" is my favourite.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

In Rheingold, Wotan is warned to give up the ring to prevent the fall of the Gods, which he does. And yet, the Gods fall 15 hours later. In Gotterdammerung, Siegfried is given a magic drink to forget Brunhilde. In the third act he is given the antidote and remembers everything except what has happened in the preceding two acts and prologue.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" -- that's a good reference!
> 
> From what you describe, it sounds as if in the production you saw Hoffmann's tales were just that -- tales, stories Hoffmann made up to help him come to terms with his past and his wasted life, and to entertain his friends in the tavern. He is, after all, a poet. I read a book (_First Intermissions _by Father M. Owen Lee) that explains how Hoffmann's "tales" -- the Olympia, Antonia, and Giulietta Acts -- can be taken either as actual flashbacks to the past, most likely with some poetic embellishments, or they can be taken as _mere stories_ that are not _literally_ true but have a kind of "core" or "overriding" truth to them in that they contain keys to Hoffmann's past or to his character.


Huh. Well, if it was all a metaphor, I'll be darned if I can see for what. I mean, there's not much difference between being a figurative murderer and a figurative double murderer - he could have left the second one out :lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think the most obvious one is the return of the lovers as "Albanians" in Cosi fan Tutte. I simply don't see how a pair of false moustaches and a silly hat is going to fool anybody, although it is true that we humans are less good at noticing what we don't expect than we like to think we are (vide the famous "invisible man in gorilla suit experiment").


You know, it occurred to me last night that if you were try the opera sex-reversed, with the women in the bar declaiming in iambic pentameter about how constant their men are and the older, wiser woman laughing at them and offering to prove otherwise, the opera would stop right there. The audience can be expected to suspend a little disbelief - say if you chuck the wrong baby in the fire, whatever - but we all know women aren't that stupid. There's a limit. The subtext of the whole opera is, men are pretty dumb! :lol:


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

katdad said:


> 1- Rigoletto, when Rig is somehow persuaded by the courtiers that Ceprano's wife will be kidnapped, he holds the ladder (or whatever the stage production has him doing) to help the plot, and somehow is tricked into helping snatch his own daughter. No matter how it's staged, it's clumsy and unbelievable (this within an opera in which the other events are fairly realistic and quite believable). The new Met production, set in 1960s Las Vegas, had some sort of goofy elevator nonsense that was completely whacky.


I'm going to have to stick up for Verdi (and Victor Hugo) on this one. The scene makes total sense given Rigoletto's already established eagerness to help the Duke debauch the courtiers' wives and the courtiers already established eagerness to extract their revenge on Rigoletto. Getting Rigoletto to assist in his own daughter's abduction only sweetens their revenge. Add to that the setting is the dark streets of Mantua and their wearing masks to hide their mischief, and it's quite believable. Rigoletto even asks to be masked in his eagerness to be part of the scheme.

That part in the Vegas version with the elevators was necessarily awkward, plus they took a lot of liberties with the Rat Pack slang version of the libretto translation. Here's a more literal translation. It's all in there:

_RIGOLETTO
It's so dark I can't see a thing.

MARULLO
We're here for a prank...
We're going to carry off Ceprano's wife.

RIGOLETTO (to himself)
Ah, I can breathe again!
(to Marullo)
How can you get in?

MARULLO (to Ceprano)
Your key!
(to Rigoletto)
Don't worry.
We've got it all arranged...
(giving him Ceprano's key)
Here is the key.

RIGOLETTO (feeling it)
I can feel his crest.
(to himself)
Ah, my terror was unfounded!
(to Marullo)
This is his place. I'm with you.

MARULLO
We're masked...

RIGOLETTO
Then I should be too.
Give me a mask.

MARULLO
Fine, it's right here.
(He puts a mask on Rigoletto, at the same time blindfolding him with a handkerchief, then positions him by a ladder which the others have leant against the terrace.)You shall hold the ladder.

RIGOLETTO
It's dark as pitch._

Here's the same scene from the recent film version with Domingo made on the actual streets of Mantua. I think it comes off pretty well:


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## Danforth (May 12, 2013)

drpraetorus said:


> In Rheingold, Wotan is warned to give up the ring to prevent the fall of the Gods, which he does. And yet, the Gods fall 15 hours later. In Gotterdammerung, Siegfried is given a magic drink to forget Brunhilde. In the third act he is given the antidote and remembers everything except what has happened in the preceding two acts and prologue.


Erda does not say that giving up the ring will save the gods; she tells Wotan that the gods will fall, then gives a separate warning that he should give up the ring.
Siegfried's memory comes back slowly, and, while he is reliving with bliss his love for Brünnhilde, Hagen kills him. He does not have enough time to consider more recent events.


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## aisia (Jul 28, 2013)

Danforth said:


> Erda does not say that giving up the ring will save the gods; she tells Wotan that the gods will fall, then gives a separate warning that he should give up the ring.
> Siegfried's memory comes back slowly, and, while he is reliving with bliss his love for Brünnhilde, Hagen kills him. He does not have enough time to consider more recent events.


That's probably fair enough as far as those two issues go, but the Ring is aptly holely. One thing that's often puzzled me is precisely why Valhalla burns down. Was Loge just waiting for Brunnhilde to give him the go ahead? If so, why?


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## Danforth (May 12, 2013)

aisia said:


> That's probably fair enough as far as those two issues go, but the Ring is aptly holely. One thing that's often puzzled me is precisely why Valhalla burns down. Was Loge just waiting for Brunnhilde to give him the go ahead? If so, why?


In Das Rheingold, Loge expresses his desire to burn the gods, citing their blindness: 
"zur leckenden Lohe
mich wieder zu wandeln,
spür' ich lockende Lust:
sie aufzuzehren,
die einst mich gezähmt,
statt mit den Blinden
blöd zu vergehn,
und wären es göttlichste Götter!"
So, when Wotan's power is gone and even Wotan himself wants to die, I don't find it surprising that Loge follows Brunnhilde's wish.


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## aisia (Jul 28, 2013)

I understand why Loge wanted to do the burning, but why does he wait around for the plot of the cycle to work itself out, rather than strike as soon as Wotan's spear breaks? Perhaps he was just a music-lover...


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## Danforth (May 12, 2013)

aisia said:


> I understand why Loge wanted to do the burning, but why does he wait around for the plot of the cycle to work itself out, rather than strike as soon as Wotan's spear breaks? Perhaps he was just a music-lover...


Well, his Das Rheingold speech does end with "wer weiss, was ich tu'!" He is uncertain about what to do, so he decides to wait until he is certain that the gods' plans will fail--until Wotan's spear breaks.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Wotan sets the fire, as noted by the third Norn in the prologue. Loge is just his fire-man.

Fliegt heim, ihr Raben!
Raunt es eurem Herren,
was hier am Rhein ihr gehört!
An Brünnhildes Felsen
fahrt vorbei! -
Der dort noch lodert,
weiset Loge nach Walhall!

Wotan has apparently been waiting for this to play out, to see that it is done (the ring returned to the Rheinmaidens). Brünnhilde sends his ravens to Valhalla to let him know it is done; Loge is sent because Wotan will need the former's help to burn Valhalla.

_Rheingold_ is all about the gods; they are the powerful characters. _Walküre_ starts the transition; Wotan is trying to control things through his various children but utterly fails. _Siegfried_ is about, well, Siegfried. Wotan is there (in disguise) to observe, not act. _Götterdämmerung_ has no gods on stage after the Norns leave in the prologue; Wotan is reduced to an entirely passive role and has to be informed by his ravens when everything is done.

At least that's how I have made sense of it.


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## aisia (Jul 28, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> Wotan sets the fire, as noted by the third Norn in the prologue. Loge is just his fire-man.
> 
> Fliegt heim, ihr Raben!
> Raunt es eurem Herren,
> ...


Again, I can't help but wonder why Loge would want to wait for anyone's orders. My best guess is that he thinks there's some value in having Wotan watch it all play through to the very end.

I still maintain that it's all about Wotan start to finish, though obviously he does less and less for himself as the drama progresses. If I were to design poster art for Gotterdammerung, it would just be Wotan's face looking out balefully, his hand over his socket


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it, the whole plot of the Ring is pretty ridiculous from the time when the Rhinemaidens allow Alberich to steal their gold till when Brunnhilde rides Grane into the pyre. I've never actually seen the horse in a production, BTW. No doubt the Animal rights lot would have something to say about immolating horses! Of course the music is a different matter - just a pity Wagner got stuck on these implausible plots. But then, most opera tends to be like that!


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

But, those Wagnerian plot holes made Anna Russell possible!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Of course the music is a different matter - just a pity Wagner got stuck on these implausible plots. But then, most opera tends to be like that!


but he's got nobody else to blame for the plots, unlike most composers


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deggial said:


> but he's got nobody else to blame for the plots, unlike most composers


Not even the myths he used. He adapted them!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> The 10 silliest operas that you really have to hear - from Limelight magazine
> 
> There are some real humdingers here. I think that the "_accidentally marrying a dead nun_" is my favourite.


there are no words... some must have been desperate for money to actually sit down and think up music for these turds.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Hmm...I guess there's a reason why the only ones of those ten operas that are even remotely well-known are _Dinorah_ and _La Wally_.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> there are no words... some must have been desperate for money to actually sit down and think up music for these turds.


Some of them sound like the _Twilight _of the 19th Century. You know, all effect and no substance.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There was a bad moment at the end of one German production of Gotterdamerung. Two of the extras were instructed to take the dead Siegfried on their shoulders as they carried him off at the funeral March. Unfortunately they had not had time to rehearse so when they came to carry him off they were both facing in different directions. The music had built up to this great shattering climax and as they moved out Siegfried dropped to the floor, must to the amusement of all. To be amused in Wagner is quite a rare occurrence so I think everyone made the most of it!


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## mchriste (Aug 16, 2013)

I recently came across Nicolai Gedda's unbelievable rendition of 'Mes amis, écoutez l'histoire' so I wanted to find out more about *Le Postillon de Lonjumeau*.

Understand, I have never seen this opera. But from the Wikipedia description the main character marries a woman, abandons her later and leaves for a few years, then comes back. He crosses paths with the same woman, falls in love and marries her, again, *but does not recognize his former wife* 

I mean... huh? I can buy that he doesn't recognize her immediately but...

Incidentally, how's that opera as a whole?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

DavidA said:


> In Lohengrin we are I'll still believe that the knight arrives on a boat called by a swan. There is a story, whether true or not I do not know, that Melchior was performing this opera. When at the end it came time for him to sail away with his swan something went wrong and the swan went without him. He is reported to have turned to the audience and said 'when does the next swan leave?'


I believe the subject of that anecdote was Austrian tenor Leo Slezak, as told in his memoir "At What Time Does The Next Swan Leave", by his son, the actor Walter Slezak.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mchriste said:


> I recently came across Nicolai Gedda's unbelievable rendition of 'Mes amis, écoutez l'histoire' so I wanted to find out more about *Le Postillon de Lonjumeau*.
> 
> Understand, I have never seen this opera. But from the Wikipedia description the main character marries a woman, abandons her later and leaves for a few years, then comes back. He crosses paths with the same woman, falls in love and marries her, again, *but does not recognize his former wife*
> 
> ...


Pretty much the same story as Donizetti's Rita with the genders switched. And La Finta Giardiera (except that he thought he had killed her in a fit of domestic jealousy. And then there is Cosi...


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

One of the Norns mentions in Gottedammerung that Wotan left his eye behind as a tribute to the ash tree or whatever. In Walkure he tells Fricka that he gave his eye to win her hand. Is there a potential discrepancy here, or did he mean that by fashioning the ash spear he became worthy of Fricka? Or was he lying to placate Fricka? Or was the Norn senile and just misremembered? Which one of these?


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## sonicboom (Sep 9, 2013)

I feel like it might be more productive to assemble a list of great operas that don't have somewhat questionable elements to their plots. While there are certainly exceptions I am not generally listening to opera because it would stand alone as a work of riveting literature.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Revenant said:


> One of the Norns mentions in Gottedammerung that Wotan left his eye behind as a tribute to the ash tree or whatever. In Walkure he tells Fricka that he gave his eye to win her hand. Is there a potential discrepancy here, or did he mean that by fashioning the ash spear he became worthy of Fricka? Or was he lying to placate Fricka? Or was the Norn senile and just misremembered? Which one of these?


I would say that it was a combination of the first two. It's an exaggeration but there's some truth to it.

I believe the Norn, in part because that is closest to the source material which has Wotan giving up an eye for a drink from the well at the base of the World ash tree. Wagner made up the bit about the spear but it fits well enough.

That is the direct reason he gave up his eye, to get the spear so that it would bring him power. But it would be fair to say that having that power (likely) helped Wotan convince Fricka to be his wife (or at least he thinks it did).

"Um dich zum Weib zu gewinnen/ mein eines Auge/ setzt' ich werbend daran" ("So as to win you for my wife/ one of my eyes/ I sacrificed to woo you") (from _Das Rheigold_, which I am assuming is the passsage you're thinking of) is sort of like saying "I worked all those long hours and didn't have any real fun so I could become rich and powerful before we met so you'd like me"... which is sort of a slimy thing to say but it makes sense that Wotan (who is sort of slimy) would say it.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> [...] is sort of like saying "I worked all those long hours and didn't have any real fun so I could become rich and powerful before we met so you'd like me"... which is sort of a slimy thing to say but it makes sense that Wotan (who is sort of slimy) would say it.


It is indeed, a very modern slimy thing for a man to say. Wotan may not have been revising his history, as many narcissistic personalities are wont to do, but slanting it a bit. Or a little more than a bit, here.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

drpraetorus said:


> In Rheingold, Wotan is warned to give up the ring to prevent the fall of the Gods, which he does. And yet, the Gods fall 15 hours later.


He didn't give it up. He later sired Siegmund in hopes of obtaining the ring. And that started a whole chain of events leading to Gotterdammerung.



drpraetorus said:


> In Gotterdammerung, Siegfried is given a magic drink to forget Brunhilde. In the third act he is given the antidote and remembers everything except what has happened in the preceding two acts and prologue.


That's reasonable that he forgot everything while under the influence of the drink. Just like a night of heavy drinking, you only forget the time when you were bonked out not the time driving over to the bar to get wasted.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

badRomance said:


> He didn't give it up. He later sired Siegmund in hopes of obtaining the ring. And that started a whole chain of events leading to Gotterdammerung.
> 
> That's reasonable that he forgot everything while under the influence of the drink. Just like a night of heavy drinking, you only forget the time when you were bonked out not the time driving over to the bar to get wasted.


I wonder how often Wagner used that "magic philtre" excuse to get out of hot water with Minna and Cosima.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sonicboom said:


> I feel like it might be more productive to assemble a list of great operas that don't have somewhat questionable elements to their plots. While there are certainly exceptions I am not generally listening to opera because it would stand alone as a work of riveting literature.


Good point. If there are no annoying plot holes, it's almost like the librettist didn't really have the cojones to give us a real opera, isn't it? What a wuss!


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

If the music and voices and idea are good, I forgive everything. My all-time favorite, Die Zauberflöte, also has big problems with logic. Especially the productions that hint that Sarastro is Pamina's father. I think that a loving father would have cared for his daughter himself, without placing her in the hands of a not-so-trustworthy servant…


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I once saw a a production of _Der Freischütz_ which left out what happened to the other five magic bulllets, making the third act even sillier than it would be otherwise.

There's an anti-plot-hole in _Le Nozze_: Figaro can recognize his fiancée _even when she's dressed as somebody else!_


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Why Aida dies at the end is not explained or even made clear. If she died of hunger because she snuck into the vault well before Rhadames was consigned to it, how did she know that he would not repent and that they would send him to that specific vault, so well in advance too? If she died of thirst, then how could she sing without croaking (no pun intended) with a dry throat? If she took poison, then why didn't she keep some for Rhadames? I stay up awake nights and think of this.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Figaro can recognize his fiancée _even when she's dressed as somebody else!_


shocking for opera, isn't it? which sort of confirms that Fiodiligi and Dorabella knew all along with whom they were flirting


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Revenant said:


> Why Aida dies at the end is not explained or even made clear. If she died of hunger because she snuck into the vault well before Rhadames was consigned to it, how did she know that he would not repent and that they would send him to that specific vault, so well in advance too? If she died of thirst, then how could she sing without croaking (no pun intended) with a dry throat? If she took poison, then why didn't she keep some for Rhadames? I stay up awake nights and think of this.


She died because it was the end of the opera. In that she died singing she joined the host of heroines who have died singing rather than choking on their blood, etc. why? It's opera, man!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> Why Aida dies at the end is not explained or even made clear. If she died of hunger because she snuck into the vault well before Rhadames was consigned to it, how did she know that he would not repent and that they would send him to that specific vault, so well in advance too? If she died of thirst, then how could she sing without croaking (no pun intended) with a dry throat? If she took poison, then why didn't she keep some for Rhadames? I stay up awake nights and think of this.


It was very dark there and she died from lack of vitamin D that sunlight provides, lack of this vitamin doesn't affect the voice. It took very long time for this to happen (years, actually) but she managed to survive so far because she fed on the chocolate that was element of her characterization, responsible for making her black.

This doesn't apply for Leontyne Price. I have no idea why her Aida dies.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

DavidA said:


> She died because it was the end of the opera. In that she died singing she joined the host of heroines who have died singing rather than choking on their blood, etc. why? It's opera, man!





Aramis said:


> It was very dark there and she died from lack of vitamin D that sunlight provides, lack of this vitamin doesn't affect the voice. It took very long time for this to happen (years, actually) but she managed to survive so far because she fed on the chocolate that was element of her characterization, responsible for making her black.
> 
> This doesn't apply for Leontyne Price. I have no idea why her Aida dies.


Thank you both. A revelation this is. Now I can sleep nights. At last. At last.


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## Rackon (Apr 9, 2013)

Celloman said:


> Il Trovatore is just one long, two-hour plot hole...


Yeah, but that's what I love about it! It's so nuts you just have to give yourself over to the music.


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## udscbt (Nov 14, 2013)

In La Cenerentola, nobody suspects that Dandini is not the real prince, even though he is not a tenor.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Peter Grimes, Britten. So, was Peter a murderous bully and a brute as played by Jon Vickers or was he a misunderstood philosophical figure who could gently wax poetic about the stars as portrayed by Peter Pears?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

udscbt said:


> In La Cenerentola, nobody suspects that Dandini is not the real prince, even though he is not a tenor.


wishful thinking does wonders, I tell ya.


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## Dandini (Jan 16, 2014)

More on the Rigoletto ladder scene.

So in the previous scene we left him looking for whoever made some noise _just outside_ *his* home.

No matter how DARK it is, how tired and confused and masked Rigoletto is, how can he believe he's now below Ceprano's window? The only explanation is that Rigoletto and Ceprano's houses are very close to each other to begin with. So maybe he walked in circle in the dark outside of his house and him being close to Ceprano's house is plausible for him. Still it bugged me a lot at first.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Peter Grimes, Britten. So, was Peter a murderous bully and a brute as played by Jon Vickers or was he a misunderstood philosophical figure who could gently wax poetic about the stars as portrayed by Peter Pears?


He is a human being with the capacity for both good and evil. I think he works best as a misunderstood outsider with a yearning for love, pushed towards violence by ostracism and circumstances, but not a deliberate murderer - Alan Oke or Christopher Ventris are my Grimes of choice.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> He is a human being with the capacity for both good and evil. I think he works best as a misunderstood outsider with a yearning for love, pushed towards violence by ostracism and circumstances, but not a deliberate murderer - Alan Oke or Christopher Ventris are my Grimes of choice.


I still see Grimes, even played by Peter Pears, as the character in Crabbe's poem. A brutal man justly ostracized, careless of his apprentices' lives, who can spin a pretty tune.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

KenOC said:


> I still see Grimes, even played by Peter Pears, as the character in Crabbe's poem. A brutal man justly ostracized, careless of his apprentices' lives, who can spin a pretty tune.


Yes, that's true of the poem, but the opera has transformed him into someone more interesting.


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)

Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_
When Brangäne give to Tristan und Isolde the love potion and not death potion. She couldn't just give a purge or something?


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

The nose said:


> Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_
> When Brangäne give to Tristan und Isolde the love potion and not death potion. She couldn't just give a purge or something?


They had unpacked only two bottles from the box. If we assume that the box remained in Isolde's sight, there was no way for Brangäne to trick her mistress with a third potion.

And it was meant to be. When Brangäne accuses herself of guilt in the second act, Isolde says:

Dein Werk?
O tör'ge Magd!
Frau Minne kenntest du nicht?
Nicht ihres Zaubers Macht?_Your work?!
Oh, foolish maid!
Would you not know Frau Minne [female personification of love],
not know the power of her spell?_


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## Rackon (Apr 9, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, that's true of the poem, but the opera has transformed him into someone more interesting.


Vickers was my first in house Grimes - it was a searing, terrifying performance. While he was incredibly intense, he was also much more than just a crude, "murderous brute"; there was also a sense of underlying vulnerability, that his outsider status and the villages ostracism was beyond endurance. This may be less apparent on the video, which I haven't seen in ages.

But that's the beauty of that opera for me, that Grimes can be played by different singers in different ways.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

I remember the State Opera company here in Adelaide putting on a production of Il Trovatore a dozen or so years ago without surtitles. Most people didn't have a clue what was going on including me and I know this opera very well. Great music but a nonsensical plot.


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## AegnorWildcat (Sep 4, 2013)

There is a plot hole in Magic Flute that always bugged me. In the 2nd Act, when Tamino is in the Temple and plays his flute, which brings Pamina to him, he essentially ignores her because his vow of silence. This then causes her to run off and be suicidal. There are other ways of communicating other than verbally. Couldn't he cover his mouth and shake his head? Something?

Then Sarastro brings Pamina back and tells them to bid farewell to each other as Tamino goes to endure some more trials (trio). Then she goes to kill herself because she thinks Tamino doesn't love her anymore because he won't speak to her. What? You were just speaking to each other 5 minutes ago?!

When I played Tamino in a local production of Magic Flute the trio was cut, so it made a bit more sense. But still Tamino...use some hand signals or something.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

DavidA said:


> There was a bad moment at the end of one German production of Gotterdamerung. Two of the extras were instructed to take the dead Siegfried on their shoulders as they carried him off at the funeral March. Unfortunately they had not had time to rehearse so when they came to carry him off they were both facing in different directions. The music had built up to this great shattering climax and as they moved out Siegfried dropped to the floor, must to the amusement of all. To be amused in Wagner is quite a rare occurrence so I think everyone made the most of it!


Well, there actually *is* a joke in The Ring. Its about 12 hours in & it's not good one but it involves a bear. God, I bet the table rocked at Wahnfried when he cracked that one.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

This is not exactly a hole in the plot: it's an error in the setting. Think back to when Italian composers thought everything set in the West was glamorous (Lucia). Donizetti jumped on the bandwagon with an opera called Emilia di Liverpool. The name alone triggers giggling in me. The killer touch is that it is set in the mountains of Kent. (For the benefit of foreign folk: there are no mountains in Kent. It's resolutely flat.)


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> The 10 silliest operas that you really have to hear - from Limelight magazine
> 
> There are some real humdingers here. I think that the "_accidentally marrying a dead nun_" is my favourite.


Mamascarlatti - many thanks for this link. It's a brilliant article & has gone in my bookmarks. From many gems this has to be the prize: "Dipsacus has brought up his daughter, Tormentilla, on a diet of poisons so that the first man she kisses will die."


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

kangxi said:


> This is not exactly a hole in the plot: it's an error in the setting. Think back to when Italian composers thought everything set in the West was glamorous (Lucia). Donizetti jumped on the bandwagon with an opera called Emilia di Liverpool. The name alone triggers giggling in me. The killer touch is that it is set in the mountains of Kent. (For the benefit of foreign folk: there are no mountains in Kent. It's resolutely flat.)


Reminds me of the waterless deserts of Louisiana in Puccini's Manon Lescaut.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Fortinbras Armstrong said:


> Reminds me of the waterless deserts of Louisiana in Puccini's Manon Lescaut.


Heh! I never heard that before! Maybe there's the possibility of an entire thread here.
Mind you I'll not hold either Puccini or Donizetti to account for bunking off Geography lessons at school if they devoted their time to honing their musical skills. I suspect, however, they went for a smoke behind the bike sheds.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

And let's not forget the killer avalanche in La Wally.


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## MCExpo (Jan 29, 2014)

I've listened to many operas recently, and I have noticed a couple of very off-putting and incomplete-sounding plots. I honestly cannot give any example, because I didn't listen very well to names, but the plots did certainly contain odd errors or misleading content. Maybe because a lot of the operas are foreign, so maybe the translation process was incorrect, rushed, or just not properly done.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, it's not opera, but Shakespeare's Winter's Tale is set on the Seacoast of Bohemia. Where there is also a desert. (Exit, pursued by a bear.)


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I can't mention any specific plot holes in Rossini's Matilde de Shabran because the entire libretto is a hole. One of the most absurd plots in all of opera, which is saying a lot.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Revenant said:


> I can't mention any specific plot holes in Rossini's Matilde de Shabran because the entire libretto is a hole. One of the most absurd plots in all of opera, which is saying a lot.


Mutatis mutandis for Il Trovatore.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

Also done straight, with a dose of amnesia to explain the non-recognition, in the novel and movie _Random Harvest_. (Hmmm, does that mean it should be made into an opera?)


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

(_Cenerentola_) Clothes make the man...or prince.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

Fortinbras Armstrong said:


> Reminds me of the waterless deserts of Louisiana in Puccini's Manon Lescaut.


"Louisiana" at the time ran all the way from New Orleans to Labrador. Parts of it _were_ pretty inhospitable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nouvelle-France_map-en.svg


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

no mention of Adriana Lecouvreur? I don't know where to begin and reading the synopsis ain't helping.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> no mention of Adriana Lecouvreur? I don't know where to begin and reading the synopsis ain't helping.


Adriana loves the guy who will one day become Marechal de Saxe and would defeat the British at Fontenoy (1745). This triggers the jealousy of an aristocratic lady who poisons her flowers. _Poveri fiori_. Based on a true story. The three main characters are real and Lecouvreur was a famous actress who was really poisoned to death. Art imitating life. Not fiction most of it. Truth stranger than.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Adriana loves the guy who will one day become Marechal de Saxe and would defeat the British at Fontenoy (1745). This triggers the jealousy of an aristocratic lady who poisons her flowers. _Poveri fiori_. Based on a true story. The three main characters are real and Lecouvreur was a famous actress who was really poisoned to death. Art imitating life. Not fiction most of it. Truth stranger than.


I read the wiki on "Maurizio". So much more interesting than the lame-o chap in the opera! But what I meant by confusing was all that letter written-intercepted business in the beginning. Why talk about that Duclos chick when she's not even a character? Maurizio loves Adriana but goes to meet Duclos who is the Princess after all (I guess her hubby can't hide anything from her, eh?)... Adriana and the Princess face off but they don't recognise each other although they obviously run in the same circles. And then all the business with the theatre within theatre and whatnot.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> I read the wiki on "Maurizio". So much more interesting than the lame-o chap in the opera! But what I meant by confusing was all that letter written-intercepted business in the beginning. Why talk about that Duclos chick when she's not even a character? Maurizio loves Adriana but goes to meet Duclos who is the Princess after all (I guess her hubby can't hide anything from her, eh?)... Adriana and the Princess face off but they don't recognise each other although they obviously run in the same circles. And then all the business with the theatre within theatre and whatnot.


Ok, I thought you mean the flower-poisoning bizness, which is lame though true. I wonder, did the housemaid who finally threw away the flowers get poisoned too? Or the local kids who found it in the garbage heap, who may have played with it? These things should not have gone unanswered and unexplored.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Or the local kids who found it in the garbage heap, who may have played with it?


good call, I believe that deleted scene was the inspiration for *this folk tune*


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> good call, I believe that deleted scene was the inspiration for *this folk tune*


Yes, I think Cilea decided to excise that aria from the finished opera.


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## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

I watched Paisiello's _Nina_ the other day, and while I liked the opera a lot and am not annoyed by it, there is a huge plot hole that cannot be denied.

Nina falls in love with Lindoro, but her father the Count wants her to marry another man. In the backstory to the opera, Lindoro and the other man have dueled, and Lindoro was slain. This drives Nina insane, and she believes that Lindoro has just gone away and will return.

Well, the plot hole is that Lindoro DOES return. Turns out he was just wounded and was hiding out in another village. It is never explained why everyone thought he was dead. No one checked for sure that he was still breathing? No one noticed that his body was missing, that he had literally just gotten up and walked away after the duel?

The plot hole can be attributed to the fact that the opera veers away from its source material, a short story, in order to give it a happy ending. In the story, Lindoro really is dead and Nina spends every day of her life insane and waiting for him to return. I understand wanting to give it a happy ending, but they created a huge plot hole in the process.

Another point, not a plot hole per se, but an area where "opera logic" is employed, is when Lindoro returns first in the guise of a shepherd and no one recognizes him simply because of his clothes and a hat.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Amara said:


> I watched Paisiello's _Nina_ the other day, and while I liked the opera a lot and am not annoyed by it, there is a huge plot hole that cannot be denied.
> 
> Nina falls in love with Lindoro, but her father the Count wants her to marry another man. In the backstory to the opera, Lindoro and the other man have dueled, and Lindoro was slain. This drives Nina insane, and she believes that Lindoro has just gone away and will return.
> 
> ...


The took the bullet hole off Lindoro and put it in the plot. Instead of Nina going insane, the audience does. That is justice.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

That Lindoro gets around a lot.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

This isn't a plot hole, but I don't like the fact that Senta from The Flying Dutchman just loves the Dutchman and wants to save him...why exactly? Her character just seems kinda flat to me.


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## cournot (Jan 19, 2014)

That list of the ten most absurd plots included Vaughan Williams' A Poisoned Kiss. Having just listened to the music I was rather struck by how beautiful it was. Makes me think that I'd forgive a well done production if done with enough style and wit.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> This isn't a plot hole, but I don't like the fact that Senta from The Flying Dutchman just loves the Dutchman and wants to save him...why exactly? Her character just seems kinda flat to me.


Ah, an excellent question! But not an easy one to answer I'm afraid. The answer to it is one of the core questions in Wagner and one of his biggest preoccupations as an artist, concisely stated as "can a great wrong be put right?"

A quick observation: you say that Senta "just loves" the Dutchman and therefore wants to save him; and this is a very understandable interpretation of the action, but if we look at it just a little closer we can see what a unique and daring artist Wagner was. During their Act two Duet, here are the words that the characters sing:

The Dutchman: "The somber glow that I feel burning here, should I, wretched one, call it love? *Ah no, it is the longing for salvation, might it come to me through such an angel!*"

Senta: "The burning pain I feel within my breast, ah this longing, what should I call it? *The salvation that you long for, you poor man, might I be the one through whom you find it?*

So in fact what the drama is dealing with is not the typical notion of romantic love, but something altogether different: a curse and a state of self-conscious suffering being redeemed through an act of self-sacrifice.


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