# Musicians who 'defined' their cities



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I was talking to somebody the other day, and he said that in Cleveland they still miss George Szell. He defined that city in musical terms and built that orchestra up to be one of the best in the USA, and the world.

The same can be said for Leonard Bernstein with _his_ New York Philharmonic. Or maybe even Georg Solti with _his_ Chicago Symphony Orchestra. These guys where larger than life.

In Australia, similar thing goes. From 1987 to his untimely death of AIDS in 1991, Stuart Challender led _his_ Sydney Symphony Orchestra, into a cultural renaissance of sorts. Many composers whose music had been neglected for decades or not well known (or seen as too complex for musicians here to tackle) was thrown into the spotlight by this very talented Tasmanian. He did a Mahler festival, and conducted music by Bruckner, Berg, R. Strauss, and also contemporary international composers like Elliott Carter and Australians like Peter Sculthorpe and Richard Meale. I think Maestro Challender was easily among the best we had at the helm of a major symphony orchestra in Australia. But he had tough competitors like Charles Mackerras before him in Sydney, and John Hopkins and Hiroyuki Iwaki with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. & today we still have great conductors like Richard Mills and Vladimir Ashkenazy working here.

*So, who were or are the musicians that define your city? Or area, region or maybe even country? If they are no longer with us, or no longer active, do you or others in your city look back with a kind of nostalgia on those golden years, those heady days of new musical discoveries, and going into uncharted territories? *

I kind of do, although I only heard Maestros Challender and Mackerras conduct live once each, they are very fond memories of mine. But they were always on the radio and television. They were doing great things with music, exciting things.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I still associate Simon Rattle with Birmingham rather than Berlin.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Although there are no longer many people who experienced those times, I suppose the man who put Amsterdam on the musical map was Willem Mengelberg. He was the Chief conductor of the relatively young Concertgebouw orchestra, and remained with them for 50 years. Thanks to him the orchestra created a unique culture and was built into perhaps the best orchestra in the world. He had friendships with composers like Mahler and Strauss, who came and regularly conducted the orchestra in their works, and the orchestra gave premieres of works by Bartok and Kodaly among others.

Strauss dedicated Ein Heldenleben to Mengelberg and told journalists that he "had at last found an orchestra capable of playing all passages, so that he no longer needed to feel embarrassed when writing difficulties."

Among his numerous assistant conductors, were (at varying times):
Karl Muck, Pierre Monteaux, Bruno Walter, Eugen Jochum and Eduard van Beinum.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

When I saw the title of the thread, I thought "few composers are as closely associated with a city as Johann Strauss II and _fin de siècle_ Hapsburg Empire Vienna." The opening post, however, seems to focus on conductors, and their relative contributions to the orchestras they led.

Speaking to the broader point of musicians 'defining' cities (or possibly, regions), it's a given that a musician must have done his finest work in that region (or, at least, in reference to that region), AND the city/region involved also acknowledges and gives credit to the identification. In that respect, Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic is a wonderful example. The Philharmonic was outstanding and famous prior to Bernstein's arrival- but I'd say it's plurality opinion among New Yorkers that the ensemble was never better before or since. At least as significantly, New Yorkers embraced the New England-born Bernstein as one of their own.

In the case of Solti & Chicago... not so much. Oh, you can make the case that Chicago's orchestra was never better before or since... but that's not a universally-held opinion. To this day, there are a vocal minority who assert that they played better under Reiner. More importantly, Chicago and Solti never had the visible open embrace on the level of Bernstein and New York. Famously, Solti never purchased a residence in the Chicago area. During the season, he bivouacked in a multi-room suite in a 5-star downtown hotel. Upon the conclusion of the season, he cleared out- proceeding to his next engagement(s), or heading to his home near London, and/or the French Riviera. If Solti had a negative opinion about the people or the infrastructure of the Chicago area, I never heard him utter it. However, he couldn't conceal his dislike of the weather in Chicago, and made his viewpoint known, publicly.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Some, past and present, spring to mind:

Karel Ančerl - Prague
John Barbirolli - Manchester (from his time at the Hallé Orchestra)
Bernard Haitink - Amsterdam
Herbert von Karajan - Berlin
Rudolf Kempe - Dresden
Kurt Masur - Leipzig
Yevgeny Mravinsky - Leningrad (as it then was)
Eugene Ormandy - Philadelphia
Ástor Piazzolla - Buenos Aires
Michel Plasson - Toulouse
Simon Rattle - Birmingham (agree with elgars ghost)
Fritz Reiner - Chicago (before Solti)
Constantin Silvestri - Bournemouth
Johann Strauss II - Vienna


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Wagner - Bayreuth

Wagner chose Bayreuth due to its lack of musical life. He wanted his art to be the lonely peak, without competition.
With money from King Ludwig I he built his monumental theater, which was at the time the largest wooden strucutre in the world. The acoustics are unique and the hall incorporates many elements which distinguish it from other opera houses, and create the particular environment Wagner wanted his dramas to be performed in. Further, there is a villa nearby for his family.

The Wagner family still control this property and every year a festival of his dramas is given.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Vienna- Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Strauss clan, Schoenberg

(Schubert was born there)

City of awesome music.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid, the Chicago Symphony was never Solti's in the way you mean. Reiner is the man whose name looms large in Chicago's history. All you have to do is listen to his RCA Living Stereo recordings to see why.
Szell, yes of course and I certainly miss him and fear that the orchestra will never be the same again.
I was surprised to see you mention Ashkenazy as a great conductor ---not really.
One does associate Ormandy with the Philadelphia but he was colourless and it's Stokowski's name that really comes to mind.
William Steinberg made a big impression at Pittsburgh and I don't understand why his name is not mentioned more.
I always associate Antal Dorati with th Minneapolis Orchestra (now Minnesota) although he did great work where ever he went.
Ernst Ansermet and the Suisse Romande Orchestra in Geneva---he was their conductor for 300 years.
Paul Paray at Detroit --wonderful.
I don't really think of Karajan and the Berlin Phil, chiefly because I can't stand his music making. Rather it is Furtwaengler who was Berlin and Vienna to me.
London has so many orchestras that it is difficult to quote a musician but if anybody it was Sir Thomas Beecham and that was HIS as he paid for it and put it together.
Another of that ilk was Serge Koussevitzky, he also raised and paid for the Boston Symphony and made it the only challenger to the Philadelphia and Stokowski at the time.
The St.Louis Orchestra brings up the name of Leonard Slatkin.
EMIELLUCIFUGE. Brings Mengelberg into the picture, unfortunately although everything he said was true the only thing that comes to mind there is his joyful collaboration with the Nazi's. Far,far worse than anything that Karajan even considered--he was banned because of it.
The other thing that interested me was the news that Muck acted as Mengelberg's assistant, I would think that would have lasted at least 15 minutes--where did this information come from?


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't understand this post. Applying Sid James's original test, "in Place A they still miss Musician X", I find it hard to imagine the good people of Birmingham (a city I do frequent) talking despondently in the coffee shops and supermarkets about how life was so much better when Simon Rattle conducted the CBSO. Frankly, I doubt that more than a vanishingly small sample of the population of that city remember who Rattle was - and fewer care.

You and I may recall fondly all those Chicago recordings with Fritz Reiner (I used to be rather fond of his _Pastoral_) but we are aficionados with an extensive listening experience (largely through recordings) - we aren't Chicagoans, and our fondness has nothing to do with our place of residency.

I'm a Londoner by birth (and I lived there until ten years ago). I associate Colin Davis with the LSO in precisely the way that I associate Haitink with the Concertgebouw. It's just a link between a principal conductor and the orchestra he has conducted for many years. It's about our familiarity as listeners.

I would be fascinated to have more detail on even one of the many links DM, say, provides. I'm not saying the bond isn't there in some cases, eg the Karajan/Berlin example, but I think it is much rarer than other contributors would appear to believe.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

JEREMY MERCHANT'

I am quite sure that you are wrong in your suppositions. Mind you I can't imagine anybody missing Rattle and as for Colon Davis he certainly would not represent London to anybody as he is fairly pedestrian,
We are talking mostly of giants here and and as an example, the Japanese buy huge amounts of Furtwaengler before Karajan to this day.
I am sure it is not merely about our familiarity as listeners, I have known most well thought of conductors but would not associate them with towns or cities.
We talk of Barbirolli and the Halle, but we don't talk about James Loughran although he was there for twelve years.
It is the stature of the man and his way of doing things that makes the difference. But the day of the big personality has gone from all walks of life , now you are supposed to conform!
You will never see another Toscanini,Reiner,Szell, for one thing nobody would stay with an orchestra for so many years. Also the time of the all powerful conductor has unfortunately gone as well, so you are left with mostly mediocracy.
I used to spend months every year in the US and the famous conductors are still talked about by the people who attended their concerts and their memory has not faded. 
The good people of Birmingham certainly don't sit around talking of their grief in the absence of Rattle. But those who were fans and attended his concerts may well. But i understood that he comes back from time to time anyway.
I certainly care that Boult ,Stokowski and Szell are no longer with us and play their recordings to visitors often, there have been no replacements. Where could you find a Beecham now?
Incidentally, people seem to talk about Callas quite a lot and she has been gone a while.
Lastly, the question was about musicians who "defined" their cities and we may well have members from most cities, what do they find on this subject?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

moody said:


> The other thing that interested me was the news that Muck acted as Mengelberg's assistant, I would think that would have lasted at least 15 minutes--where did this information come from?


Not news at all, and taken from various publications in dutch as well as a talk with a staff member there. I didnt know this, but dutch wikipedia states he was employed there from 1921-25


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> When I saw the title of the thread, I thought "few composers are as closely associated with a city as Johann Strauss II and _fin de siècle_ Hapsburg Empire Vienna." The opening post, however, seems to focus on conductors, and their relative contributions to the orchestras they led...


I deliberately made the title broad, but I honed in on conductors, who are more within our experience today. Nobody is alive who can remember J. Strauss II and the likes of him. But really people can contribute any classical musician here, eg. not only conductor but pianist or composer, etc.

I enjoyed people's responses, learnt quite a bit from some, other things I knew but got more detail. All good.



moody said:


> ...It is the stature of the man and his way of doing things that makes the difference. But the day of the big personality has gone from all walks of life , now you are supposed to conform!
> You will never see another Toscanini,Reiner,Szell, for one thing nobody would stay with an orchestra for so many years. Also the time of the all powerful conductor has unfortunately gone as well, so you are left with mostly mediocracy...


^^That sums up what are my thoughts. The unique _way of doing things _of musicians associated with cities or regions for a long time. With Stuart Challender who I mentioned in Sydney, he did some things that have not been done since, to my knowledge. Eg. Carter's_ Concerto for Orchestra _has not been played here since, as far as I know.

However, it's also about legacy these people leave behind. Challender put Mahler on the map here too, and to a lesser extent others I mentioned. He proved our musicians are good enough to play his complex, long, challenging music. He also put Australian music firmly in centre stage.



> ...
> I used to spend months every year in the US and the famous conductors are still talked about by the people who attended their concerts and their memory has not faded.
> The good people of Birmingham certainly don't sit around talking of their grief in the absence of Rattle. But those who were fans and attended his concerts may well. But i understood that he comes back from time to time anyway.
> ...


Yes, I have come across people from USA and UK living here now, and they say they still look back fondly - or people of their cities look back - on the likes of Szell and to a lesser extent Rattle, at least in terms of helping raise the Birmingham orchestra to a very high level.



> ...
> Lastly, the question was about musicians who "defined" their cities and we may well have members from most cities, what do they find on this subject?


Well that's what I'm seeking on this thread, people's personal experiences, but also the histories of the places they live in, if they know them. & as I said, it's been interesting to read what people have contributed so far.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't understand this post. Applying Sid James's original test, "in Place A they still miss Musician X", I find it hard to imagine the good people of Birmingham (a city I do frequent) talking despondently in the coffee shops and supermarkets about how life was so much better when Simon Rattle conducted the CBSO. Frankly, I doubt that more than a vanishingly small sample of the population of that city remember who Rattle was - and fewer care.

I fully agree with Jeremy. The notion of a city being "defined" by a particular artist... or group of artists seems rather rare. If I were asked to tell you what I think of when speaking of Chicago... Georg Solti and Fritz Reiner would probably not even come to mind... in spite of my love of classical music. I'd be more likely to think of the Great Fire, Al Capone and the 1920's gangsters, the Cubs, the great architects who gave birth to the skyscraper, and the electric blues.

Certainly if someone brings up Vienna, I will not be able to ignore the great wealth of composers who worked there: Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler, Bruckner, but I almost suspect that many will think more of the Viennese waltz and the music of Strauss and Lehar before Bruckner or Mahler comes to mind.

New Orleans immediately brings to mind jazz... but not really any single musician. The same might be said of Memphis or Nashville which draw to mind any number of country, bluegrass, blues, and rock musicians... although Elvis might loom particularly large over Memphis. One might also suggest that at least outside of Britain, the Beatles put Liverpool on the map... but other than that?

Berlin? Paris? New York? London? Florence? Moscow? Are there really any musicians or composers who really seem to have defined those cities? It seems to me that they are far too large... even if only in their reputation... to be limited to any single composer/musician.

Really? Amsterdam defined by Bernard Haitink? Really? Can you just imagine the puzzled looks on most folks faces? Bernard who? What about Rembrandt? Probably the first name I think of with regard to Amsterdam.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Don't take it too literally. The word _define_, I mean. That's why I put it in between these things '....'

It's about classical music, the buzz these musicians create in a city or region, or even country. Also the way they leave a legacy in terms of playing or repertoire or bringing in a new audience. Good memories. Or modernising things, eg. I think Simon Rattle was one of the first in the UK to do yearly auditions for those already in the Birmingham orchestra. These are commonplace now. You don't simply have your chair in the orchestra for life, you have to prove that you're up to a certain level in auditions every year or whatever. So Rattle left that legacy behind too, if my memory is correct.

So it's many things. Not just narrowing it down to 'define.'


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It is the stature of the man and his way of doing things that makes the difference. But the day of the big personality has gone from all walks of life , now you are supposed to conform!
You will never see another Toscanini,Reiner,Szell, for one thing nobody would stay with an orchestra for so many years. Also the time of the all powerful conductor has unfortunately gone as well, so you are left with mostly mediocracy...

Accck! These goll-durn whipper snappers (cough... cough... hack... spit) They just don't make 'em like they did back in the day... and these young 'uns are just too purblind ignorant to see. Back in the day we had real musicians... giants among men... (cough... cough... hack... spit). Nothing left today but mediocrities. A bunch of spoiled, punk kids who never had to walk 10 miles to school... in the driving rain, sleet and snow... uphill... both ways. It made a man of ya. Nothing left today but a bunch of pansies who couldn't tell Toscanini from Linguine. Goll durn!!!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It is the stature of the man and his way of doing things that makes the difference. But the day of the big personality has gone from all walks of life , now you are supposed to conform!
> You will never see another Toscanini,Reiner,Szell, for one thing nobody would stay with an orchestra for so many years. Also the time of the all powerful conductor has unfortunately gone as well, so you are left with mostly mediocracy...
> 
> Accck! These goll-durn whipper snappers (cough... cough... hack... spit) They just don't make 'em like they did back in the day... and these young 'uns are just too purblind ignorant to see. Back in the day we had real musicians... giants among men... (cough... cough... hack... spit). Nothing left today but mediocrities. A bunch of spoiled, punk kids who never had to walk 10 miles to school... in the driving rain, sleet and snow... uphill... both ways. It made a man of ya. Nothing left today but a bunch of pansies who couldn't tell Toscanini from Linguine. Goll durn!!!


Have you ever considered that this sort of thing is making you look pretty ig norant? Or is that beyond your ken?


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

Van Cliburn - Fort Worth

Not a conductor, but nobody's done more for this city music-wise than him (either directly or indirectly).


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Have you ever considered that this sort of thing is making you look pretty ig norant? Or is that beyond your ken?

More "ignorant" than your your constant nonsense about how all the conductors and performers were so much better in the "good old days"?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^If you gents want a debate about 'yesterdays' versus today's performers, better have it elsewhere. Eg. make a thread about that specifically.

One that has effected me, a conductor who worked for around 25 years with _his_ orchestra, was *Gerard Schwarz *with the* Seattle Symphony Orchestra*. I have enjoyed his recordings on Naxos and Delos of American composers. It appears to me he used his time with that orchestra to showcase some of America's great composers. I have the impression that Seattle is receptive to American music and maybe new music as well.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Trust me... I'm not at all interested in a today vs yesterday debate with regard to performers. I love any number of the older performers... probably a good many of the same ones as Moody... but I'm not about to embrace some unrealistic, Romantic notion that this past era represented some "golden age" against which all Modern/Contemporary performers and conductors are but "mediocrities".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I was talking to somebody the other day, and he said that in Cleveland they still miss George Szell. He defined that city in musical terms and built that orchestra up to be one of the best in the USA, and the world.
> 
> The same can be said for Leonard Bernstein with _his_ New York Philharmonic. Or maybe even Georg Solti with _his_ Chicago Symphony Orchestra. These guys where larger than life.
> 
> ...


Ah, later ideas of history without looking back lead to such statements about Solti and the Chicago Symphony. Solti, and I would say Boulez, are two who clearly re-directed an already great orchestra and left their 'stamp' on the works in which they collaborated, but THE Conductor who 'Made' The CSO was Fritz Reiner.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Edo de Waart, two times that I know of, has stepped in and cleaned up a great bunch of players in an otherwise rather personality lacking and lackluster band. 

He made the San Francisco Symphony into a much more solid contender as a first-rate orchestra, with programming which won awards, including many a contemporary work programmed alongside more conventional common practice repertoire, and on the normal subscription series programs.

He later has done something similar with the Milwaukee Orchestra.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Richard Cock is the most visible of all Johannesburg's musicians. He conducts the Symphony Choir of *Johannesburg,*, the *Johannesburg* Festival Orchestra and he was one of the founders of the *Johannesburg* International Mozart Festival.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Conductors and musicians/performers sign international contracts increasing their "mobility" perhaps more than ever. But down here, already mentioned were Stuart Challenger, Sir Charles Mackerras. I could add Dame Joan Sutherland, Simone Young, Leslie Howard, and from the early music movement, perhaps Geoffrey Lancaster, Elisabeth Wallfisch, Paul Dyer ... many very good perfomers and conductors worthy of support, coming from a relatively small "market" down here.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

While it's interesting to read about musicians who 'defined' their cities, I think it would be even more interesting to read about musicians who somehow 'embodied' their cities! I don't know if such people exist, though.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

There is nothing more appropriate than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelahozeves

I don't know really others, except Wagner in Bayreuth.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

When I travelled in Europe three places made an impression on me specifically because of their musical associations - Eibingen (Hildegard van Bingen), Bonn and Vienna. I didn't get to Beyreuth.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*@ PetrB* - Edo de Waart actually left his 'stamp' in Sydney too, taking over the SSO after Stuart Challender died. I think the consensus is that Edo did a good job, a very good job. I think he was less adventurous in terms of programming than Challender, but of course these guys are different, we have to judge them on their own merits. I think Edo has left behind a good legacy here, he is also remembered well for his work here.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> ^^If you gents want a debate about 'yesterdays' versus today's performers, better have it elsewhere. Eg. make a thread about that specifically.
> 
> One that has effected me, a conductor who worked for around 25 years with _his_ orchestra, was *Gerard Schwarz *with the* Seattle Symphony Orchestra*. I have enjoyed his recordings on Naxos and Delos of American composers. It appears to me he used his time with that orchestra to showcase some of America's great composers. I have the impression that Seattle is receptive to American music and maybe new music as well.


I am not aware that I was taking part in a debate about yesterdays performers or todays either, I was under the impression that I was responding to your thread ! The last person that I would wish to debate anything with is St.Lukesguild, quite apart from anything else he does not debate he pontificates.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Some detailed info on the Mengelberg/Nazi connection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Mengelberg
http://reocities.com/paris/1947/m-forum.html
http://reocities.com/paris/1947/m-pol.html
http://www.morethanthenotes.com/read-the-book/willem-mengelberg


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I don't understand this post. Applying Sid James's original test, "in Place A they still miss Musician X", I find it hard to imagine the good people of Birmingham (a city I do frequent) talking despondently in the coffee shops and supermarkets about how life was so much better when Simon Rattle conducted the CBSO. Frankly, I doubt that more than a vanishingly small sample of the population of that city remember who Rattle was - and fewer care.
> 
> I fully agree with Jeremy. The notion of a city being "defined" by a particular artist... or group of artists seems rather rare. If I were asked to tell you what I think of when speaking of Chicago... Georg Solti and Fritz Reiner would probably not even come to mind... in spite of my love of classical music. I'd be more likely to think of the Great Fire, Al Capone and the 1920's gangsters, the Cubs, the great architects who gave birth to the skyscraper, and the electric blues.
> 
> ...


The heading of this thread was "Musicians who 'Defined' their cities.
This is the thread that I was answering, you on the other hand apparently don't know of a musician who might fit that category.
You do mention gangsters, the Fire, the Cubs (sic), Architects and Rembrandt, not much of an answer really. It would have been better to have said that no musicians define a particular city as far as you are concerned, or perhaps not to have answered at all.But hang on a minute, you then pipe up with the comment that perhaps people associate Vienna with Strauss and Lehar, what about Richard Tauber after all Lehar wrote half of his works for him?
If you don't realise that people who know something about music associate Szell with Cleveland, Reiner with Chicago and Karajan or Furtwaengler with Berlin then it's hardly worth bothering.
Haitink is another matter and I do not think that he was strong enough to be associated in that way . You will note that our member from the Netherlands chose Mengelburg, so where does that leave your somewhat suspect opinions ?


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

I'll just take this to mean 'musician's who are strongly associated with a particular city' and add:

Grieg - Bergen


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Trust me... I'm not at all interested in a today vs yesterday debate with regard to performers. I love any number of the older performers... probably a good many of the same ones as Moody... but I'm not about to embrace some unrealistic, Romantic notion that this past era represented some "golden age" against which all Modern/Contemporary performers and conductors are but "mediocrities".


There is a point to be made though that musicians in former times, eg. before many of us here where even born, did make a big impact. They left big shoes to fill for subsequent generations of musicians. It's somewhat similar to Brahms waiting until he was lie 42 to publish his first symphony, such was the weight Beethoven's legacy had on succeeding generations of composers.

I think it's kind of human nature to be nostalgic, and moody has heard some of those legends of the past and seen them perform live. It's natural he will look back and cherish those memories. & that's what I spoke to of my experience, in the opening post. But I think moody can also be critical, eg. about Colin (who he calls _Colon_) Davis. So it's not only blind nostalgia.

But the focus of this thread is not only personal memories but also people whose work you've come across on recordings, as I said about me hearing cd's of Gerard Schwarz conducting the Seattle orchestra of American repertoire. It reaches across the world now, it has that ability.



moody said:


> I am not aware that I was taking part in a debate about yesterdays performers or todays either, I was under the impression that I was responding to your thread ! ...


Well, you where responding, I was just trying to stave off a slanging match between you guys. I really prefer to keep out of it, I've been in plenty like this before and it can deteriorate rapidly.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

It may be that Gergiev is currently having the kind of impact in St. Petersburg that will be long remembered.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Sid James said:


> Well, you were responding, I was just trying to stave off a slanging match between you guys. I really prefer to keep out of it, I've been in plenty like this before and it can deteriorate rapidly.


Your heart's in the right place here, Sid. Thanks for making the effort. 
However, if posters persist with the insults, there will be ramifications...

Carry on--


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

My heart is in the wrong place, in that although the subject is explicitly classical music I was thinking of American cities and music - Chicago blues, for instance. In that case at least, there are probably still some old timers sitting around missing the heroes of that tradition. 

Seattle has probably seen its glory days of music, and people must already be sitting around some coffee shop missing Kurt Cobain. 

Just to get us back to classical music so that I can avoid getting warning points for going off-topic, does anyone have personal experience of Ormandy's effect in Philadelphia?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2012)

I am surprised that G F Handel has not been mentioned (unless I have missed it) and his adopted City London.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The heading of this thread was "Musicians who 'Defined' their cities.
This is the thread that I was answering, you on the other hand apparently don't know of a musician who might fit that category.
You do mention gangsters, the Fire, the Cubs (sic), Architects and Rembrandt, not much of an answer really. It would have been better to have said that no musicians define a particular city as far as you are concerned, or perhaps not to have answered at all.But hang on a minute, you then pipe up with the comment that perhaps people associate Vienna with Strauss and Lehar, what about Richard Tauber after all Lehar wrote half of his works for him?

You may have the illusion that this or that musician truly "defined" a city... but again I would point out that very few people... even among those somewhat well-versed in music... would immediately think of a given composer... let alone a conductor... when asked what they think of in connection with this or that city. I suggested that there were a few exceptions: Vienna, New Orleans, Nashville, Memphis that are almost immediately connected in the minds of many with certain musicians. Now if we are merely speaking of musicians/composers/conductors that you connect in your mind with a given city... then fine, there are many.

If you don't realise that people who know something about music associate Szell with Cleveland...

Fine, many who know music and know Szell will associate him with the Cleveland orchestra... but how many will associate Cleveland with Szell? I can tell you from the point of view of one living in Cleveland that very few even know who Szell was. If asked to come up with something they felt "defined" the city, Szell would almost certainly never be mentioned. It would seem to me that if a city were to be "defined" by a particular person/place/thing then that would need to be something that immediately comes to mind with a good many people... not merely those well versed in a given discipline. I would guess that asked what comes to mind when speaking of Paris a great many who know little or nothing of architecture would say the Eiffel Tower and the Cathedral of Notre Dame. Perhaps you have a false illusion that classical music is of greater importance to the vast populace than it actually is. I could only wish it were true.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Just to get us back to classical music so that I can avoid getting warning points for going off-topic, does anyone have personal experience of Ormandy's effect in Philadelphia?

Why would this be considered "Off topic"? I fully agree that Chicago is far more likely to be thought of as being "defined" by the blues than by Reiner or Solti. The whole electric blues sound came as a result of a need to amplify the guitars in order to be heard in the load Chicago bars and nightclubs. New Orleans is surely associated in an even greater manner with Jazz, Nashville with Country and Bluegrass, and Detroit with Motown.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Pittsburgh - Stephen Foster, Victor Herbert, William Steinberg, Billy Eckstine, Billy Strayhorn, Lena Horne, George Benson, Shirley Jones, Perry Como, Dean Martin, Errol Garner, Earl Hines, Maxine Sullivan, Christina Aguilera, Jackie Evancho

.....not one of them whose name actually conjures up the idea of the city in the minds of many people today. 

The only truly individual musician that did that was the late Walt Harper, who himself was not widely known outside the area. (Or possibly the guitarist Joe Negri, known to many from Mr Rogers' Neighborhood). Steinberg might also do that, but only for people who were into classical music in the 1960s.

Sports figures, on the other hand....


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> Sports figures, on the other hand....


They don't get paid enough......


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