# The Joyce Hatto scandal



## Frederik Magle

I just learned about the "Joyce Hatto scandal". It seems the pianist Joyce Hatto experienced a comeback during the 90's as a recording artist. She had been forced to end her concert career in the 70's due to illness. But the amazing thing is that the coemback was a hoax. She didn't perform on the recordings herself. Instead she, with the assistance of her husband, released several CD's with tracks _copied_ from other artists' recordings!!

More about the story, as well as audio samples here (News story here).

This is now being considered one of the greatest music scandals in recent times. Incredible that they got away with it for such a long time. Anyone here that has heard - or perhaps even bought - some of Joyce Hatto's recordings?


----------



## Krummhorn

What an amazing story. Found an additional article in Wikipedia on Joyce Hatto that explains in great detail the 'tracks' that got altered. I had never heard of her until reading this today - Is her husband still living? Wonder if he will be held accountable.


----------



## Frederik Magle

Yes indeed amazing. The husband, William Barrington-Coupe, is still living and a couple of days ago, on the 26th, he finally admitted guilt:


> "It is self-evident that I have acted stupidly, dishonestly and unlawfully,"


(Link to BBC article)

I assume there will be some kind of legal aftermath.


----------



## captaintim

Its unbvelievable! i don't know about anyone else but I'd never even heard of her before all this. Seems that her 'success' was limited anyway and I really hope that they didn't make much money out of this (and that the husband will be punished). 

Fingers crossed also that the pianist who's recordings were used will receive some compensation (or cut of any profits made on the recordings). 

As a performer and recording musician it makes me sick that someone can be ripped off in this manner. Its such a cut throat industry anyway and as the classical recording market is not as large as it once, so for his recordings to be abused in this manner is shocking, although I guess the pianist has probably gotten more publicity out of this scandal than he would have done if it hadn't happened!


----------



## toughcritic

Sadly, it's one way to get publicity. Unless the listener has some kind of knowledge about classical music, how would they know? But yeah, it is pretty outrageous.


----------



## opus67

This one's too funny! 
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=10872


----------



## Polednice

Here's a great little documentary about this fascinating fraud.


----------



## Ukko

The whole deal ought to have some notoriety as a _successful_ fraud, the guy getting no jail time, and keeping most of the take.


----------



## Polednice

The short version of the consequences is that the husband, who was a sound engineer who made all the fraudulent CDs, made very little money off the endeavour, and has not been charged with anything and will probably never be prosecuted. He did accept an interview, but he denies the extent to which the CDs were evidently faked. Analysis makes it clear that entire tracks were lifted from other recordings, but he states that Joyce recorded most of the pieces, and, because she would make loud whimpers because she was near death while recording, he replaced those sections with others. That's all he accepts responsibility for, but it's clearly not the full story.


----------



## moody

Joyce Hatto wasn't a bad pianist I saw a couple of her concerts'
barrington-Coupe along wit Marcel Rodd were responsible for cheap record companies with pirated recordings. They pretend artists such as the pianist Paul Procopolis and the conductor William Havergesse plus all sorts of strangely titled orchestras.Some of their stuff was taken straight from radio broadcasts. The record label that commited the 
Hatto fraud was Concert Artist and they also did the same with Sergio Fiorentino recordings,so if you own some you do not know which are fake and which are genuine.Marcel Rodd went off and started up Saga Records the ten shilling per LP company.This caused chaos because HMV, Decca etc. had the prices fixed there were no bargain records then. I wass his sales director and it was a riot, at one pont they were thowing old returned records,labels and all into the material mix. Rodd and Barrinton-Coupe were enemies by then. Although Rodd was a rogue Saga did some good work,we recorded Janet Baker first and Sheila Armstrong,Malcolm Binns,John Shirly-Quirkand Jill Gomez.Then HMV hired Paul Hamelin to start Music For Pleasure also at ten shillings and that was the end of that, but it was fun while it lasted. The music business was full of strange people then. 
by the way you're a bit late on this story.


----------



## moody

Forgive the slips and mistakes, I'm rather tired it's late.


----------



## Polednice

moody said:


> by the way you're a bit late on this story.


I'm also late for the French Revolution.


----------



## moody

Polednice said:


> I'm also late for the French Revolution.


Depends from which perspective you approach it.


----------



## Ukko

I have an LP of Ms. Hatto playing Bax sonatas. It's the only Bax I've been able to enjoy... so she must have been doing something wrong.


----------



## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> I have an LP of Ms. Hatto playing Bax sonatas. It's the only Bax I've been able to enjoy... so she must have been doing something wrong.


How do you know it's her??


----------



## Ukko

It was made, I think, pre-scumbag.


----------



## Vaneyes

Thanks Vampire Piggy for bringing that video. And, coming soon, a JH movie!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/feb/20/bbc-screen-joyce-hatto-biopic

Perhaps Moody or someone can comment further. BTW I don't think this story will ever be *late, *due to an unwillingness to prosecute, and a myth that keeps on giving.

Why *wasn't* WBC prosecuted? Record companies seem only too willing to initiate justice for children and grandmothers, who they say download illegally.

Could it be because an investigation and trial for WBC and any knowing or unknowing accomplices would prove too embarrassing? The line of concept to consumer is a long one.

Related: Andrys Basten website's summarization.

http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html


----------



## moody

Vaneyes said:


> Thanks Vampire Piggy for bringing that video. And, coming soon, a JH movie!
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/feb/20/bbc-screen-joyce-hatto-biopic
> 
> Perhaps Moody or someone can comment further. BTW I don't think this story will ever be *late, *due to an unwillingness to prosecute, and a myth that keeps on giving.
> 
> Why *wasn't* WBC prosecuted? Record companies seem only too willing to initiate justice for children and grandmothers, who they say download illegally.
> 
> Could it be because an investigation and trial for WBC and any knowing or unknowing accomplices would prove too embarrassing? The line of concept to consumer is a long one.
> 
> Related: Andrys Basten website's summarization.
> 
> http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html


I don't think there's much to add it's the mixture as before. I just hope they get things right, the actors are good.


----------



## Vaneyes

moody said:


> I don't think there's much to add it's the mixture as before. I just hope they get things right, the actors are good.


What would be *right*?


----------



## moody

Vaneyes said:


> What would be *right*?


We are talking about happenings, as far as I am concerned, from around forty years ago. I knew of Barringto-Coupe and his nefarious goings-on as did many people. It was common knowledge in the industry, or I got it from Marcel Rodd my boss and his ex colleague . By the time time the crooked piano recordings appeared I was long gone from the record scene and knew nothing about it util the story appeared in the media.I hope that they will get things right in the sense that the complete story will emerge and not merely conjecture as with some docudramas. But we can only wait and see, I think they may do a good job of it.


----------



## Vaneyes

moody said:


> We are talking about happenings, as far as I am concerned, from around forty years ago. I knew of Barringto-Coupe and his nefarious goings-on as did many people. It was common knowledge in the industry, or I got it from Marcel Rodd my boss and his ex colleague . By the time time the crooked piano recordings appeared I was long gone from the record scene and knew nothing about it util the story appeared in the media.I hope that they will get things right in the sense that the complete story will emerge and not merely conjecture as with some docudramas. But we can only wait and see, I think they may do a good job of it.


I'm afraid the same conjecture is all we'll get...if we're lucky. It seems the sympathy card is being resoundly played.

In the movie announcement there was no mention of WBC in film consultation and finally spilling the beans. Only these words by screenwriter Victoria Wood.

"Loving Miss Hatto is a screenplay inspired by the true story of classical pianist Joyce Hatto and her husband Barrie.
It begins with their meeting in the grey shabby London of the early 50s and ends in the 21st century in a cul-de-sac in Royston, Hertfordshire. This is a story of two young people with high hopes who, like most of us, get bashed in the face by life. It is, above all, a love story."


----------



## Polednice

There's no getting beyond conjecture, because there are things we don't know that only the husband can tell us, and he is either self-deluded or unwilling to tell the truth.


----------



## moody

Vaneyes said:


> I'm afraid the same conjecture is all we'll get...if we're lucky. It seems the sympathy card is being resoundly played.
> 
> In the movie announcement there was no mention of WBC in film consultation and finally spilling the beans. Only these words by screenwriter Victoria Wood.
> 
> "Loving Miss Hatto is a screenplay inspired by the true story of classical pianist Joyce Hatto and her husband Barrie.
> It begins with their meeting in the grey shabby London of the early 50s and ends in the 21st century in a cul-de-sac in Royston, Hertfordshire. This is a story of two young people with high hopes who, like most of us, get bashed in the face by life. It is, above all, a love story."


Oh. no! I don't like the sound of that!


----------



## Vaneyes

With the passing and cremation of William Barrington-Coupe last October, most of the nails are in this story's coffin. But since he never made full disclosure, there'll always be room for atleast one more.

William Barrington-Coupe's 2012 interviews, leading up to the televised docudrama, Loving Miss Hatto.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...and-reveals-fooled-world-fake-recordings.html

http://www.royston-crow.co.uk/news/...ecording_scandal_speaks_to_the_crow_1_1224693

Post docudrama article (2013), with related links.

http://duncanstephen.co.uk/was-joyce-hatto-always-a-con-artist/

2014 death notice.

http://www.familynotices24.co.uk/roy/view/3594085/william-barringtoncoupe-barry

PEE-ESS:

One of my wonderings was answered in the linked Daily Mail article. Q. Where did the recording crime take place? A: Roger Chatterton's recording studio.


----------



## Bulldog

The most important thing about this scum-bag con and the dead-beat husband is: how do we really know who's playing on the discs we acquire?


----------



## KenOC

Bulldog said:


> The most important thing about this scum-bag con and the dead-beat husband is: how do we really know who's playing on the discs we acquire?


This suggests an interesting question. Say you buy a disc of some music with Bruno Walter and the NY Phil. You listen to it and say to yourself, "Wow, what a great performance. They really know how to play music in those days!" Over time, this becomes one of your favorite recordings.

And then you find out that it was a forgery, some unknown conductor and a third-rate provincial orchestra in a remote part of Europe.

Question: Were you really cheated? Do you like the recording less now?


----------



## Headphone Hermit

^^^ The first classical LP I ever bought appears to be some sort of forgery from the early 1960s (or a very obscure conductor and orchestra - Andre de Lysan and the Orchestra Symphonique de Versailles). However I only paid 20p (it was in the 1980s!) and although I have other versions that I much prefer, this one still has a soft spot for me ... even if it is 'dodgy'


----------



## Vaneyes

By the early 1960's, it was not uncommon to see imaginary musicians/orchestras attributed to a recording. These were usually on a no-name cheap label. Some were semi-legitimate, in that the performers agreed to the ploy for whatever reasons. Others were illegal rip-offs.

As Hattogate revealed, it can still happen. However, the moral of this tale should be, higher tech made it easier to deceive and be caught.

Related:

"So suddenly I have a hundred CDs and I don't know who the hell's playing them. It's a mish-mash." - Caine Alder

http://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax.html

http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/joyce-hatto-the-great-piano-swindle

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/09/17/fantasia-for-piano

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/print.aspx?article=43&loc=b&type=cbtp


----------



## DavidA

One group of people who got off lightly from Hattogate were the critics who gave rave reviews to her performances. This just shows not just the subjective nature of criticism but it's gullibility. Common sense might have to.d them that a sick woman could not produce the performances she was credited with, including some of the most demanding pieces on the repertoire. Her concerto 'recordings' were with bogus orchestras and conductors no-one had ever heard of. How on earth the 'experts' were taken in by this nonsense boggles the mind! In fact the scam was only revealed by accident when someone played a recording on the computer.
At the time I wrote to the Gramhone suggesting that some of its critics should consider their positions, having been shown to be so fallible in their judgment. Of course, I received no reply. To me it illustrated the utter fallibility of music criticism and the lack of proper investigation, even when many members of the public were raising questions over the whole thing.


----------

