# A Mozart-Beethoven genre comparison



## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

It's probably no secret on this forum that my 2 favorite composers are Mozart and Beethoven, in that order. I also enjoy JS Bach, Handel, Brahms, Schubert, Rossini, Haydn and Mendelssohn. So I guess you could say I am pretty much anchored in the Baroque to Late Classical period.

I'd like to give my thoughts on a genre by genre comparison (7 in total) of my big 2 here, and how I see the relative merits of both composers. In doing so, I am assigning relative merits as follows:

_Overwhelming advantage_
_Significant advantage
Slight advantage
Dead even_

*First genre- Symphonies*

By most accounts, Mozart wrote some 41 symphonies to Beethoven's 9 symphonies. But many of Mozart's early ones are rather slender compositions written as a youth - and for me only nine truly stand out. Those are #25,29,31,35,36,38,39,40 and 41. In contrast, Beethoven's nine are all quite weighty affairs and stand out as very significant achievements in the entire symphony genre. I would submit that at least six of Mozart's are first class as well. But overall, Beethoven comes out ahead here.

I therefore give Beethoven a significant advantage in this category.

*Second genre- Concertos*

Mozart's 23 piano concertos (not counting the 4 written as a youth) along with many others for other instruments - flute, oboe, bassoon, horn, violin and viola, clarinet, flute and harp, etc. combine for a body of work in concertos unequaled, I think, by any other composer. Beethoven's accomplishments in this area are considerable as well, although nowhere nearly as varied - with 5 piano concertos and a violin concerto.

As a body of work in this genre, then, Mozart gets a significant advantage here.

*Third genre - Solo piano music, including sonatas for violin and piano*

Both composers have a significant number of piano sonatas, fantasias, etc. But Beethoven's sheer number and superb quality of them hold weight here. I love some of Mozart's solo piano music as well, such as K310, K457, K475, 397 and many of his 42 sonatas for violin and piano. 
But, in my book, Beethoven holds sway here, and therefore gets a significant advantage.

*Fourth genre - Vocal music, including masses, sacred and concert arias*

This is the closest category so far IMHO. Beethoven's Missa solemnis, Choral fantasy and others vs. Mozart's masses, Requiem, Ave Verum, and many, many magnificent Concert arias. Mozart's voice parts for women are unsurpassed in my book. 
Here, as a shear body of work, Mozart gets _at least_ a slight advantage. 

*Fifth genre - Chamber music - quartets, quintets, trios, etc.*

This, for me is the closest comparison so far. Both Beethoven and Mozart excelled here. Beethoven's superb quartets, trios and septet vs. Mozart's excellent quintets, quartets and trios. 
Too close to call here. Dead even.

*Sixth genre - Entertainment music - divertimenti, serenades, dances and other lighter fare*

Mozart here holds court IMHO with many, many examples i.e. K361,K525,K250, K320, K136, K138, etc.
Beethoven has a few Romances and not much else that I am aware of, at least. 
Mozart ends up here with a significant advantage.

*Seventh and final genre - Opera*

Here, there is pretty much no contest. Beethoven's single opera - Fidelio (which took years to write) against an array of magnificent Mozart operas including Figaro, Don Giovanni, Magic Flute, Cosi fan tutte, Idomeneo, Tito, Seraglio along with others. 
For the sheer body of work and extreme facility in the opera genre, the overwhelming advantage goes to Mozart.

And for another comparison, it's Mozart's sheer melodic invention vs. Beethoven's making one principal theme do for an entire movement - a la, buh-buh-buh-bum. Mozart might call up four or five themes to begin with, and then introduce new themes in the development. For the listener, it becomes a matter of personal preference, and my preference leans to Mozart.

I'd be interested in hearing what others think.......


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I would not disagree with your conclusions. But the mature Mozart and the mature Beethoven are so different, that comparisons may not be very meaningful.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Vocal Music - I think Mozart has a big advantage here.

Chamber Music - Beethoven by a small margin.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I think Beethoven has the big advantage in chamber music. His Trios and Quartets are just too far advanced.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The genres in which composers wrote were changing during the period, so it's not entirely sensible to compare them in, say, entertainment music for wealthy aristocrats' social functions.

I give Mozart a significant edge in _*opera and entertainment music*_, and an obvious edge in _*concert arias*_, of which Beethoven only wrote one that I know of ("Ah, perfido"). I'd put _*choral music*_ in a category separate from the concert arias, and there I give Mozart a slight advantage despite having little taste for Classical period sacred music (I can't abide cheerful kyrie eleisons), since Beethoven has only a few works in this category. However, the _Missa Solemnis_ seems to me worth most of Mozart's masses put together.

Beethoven takes _*solo piano*_ by a wide margin, _*symphonies*_ by a fair margin, and _*chamber music*_ by a slight margin (mainly for the late quartets and sonatas for cello and violin).

On _*concertos*_ I'm of two minds. Mozart wins on quantity, but I find only some of the piano concertos and the clarinet concerto as interesting as Beethoven's five piano concertos and violin concerto. Most of Mozart's other assorted wind and violin concertos I can live without. So I'll give Mozart only a slight advantage in this category.

A category not included in the OP is the *concert overture,* in which Beethoven is the obvious champion.

Mozart's taking the palm in more categories speaks as much to sheer quantity as to quality, and I wouldn't use it as a measure of relative "greatness," which has to be understood as multidimensional. Beethoven struggled more with his musical conceptions, and in those genres he preferred - the piano sonata, the symphony, and the string quartet - he explored uncharted territory and reached visionary heights rarely matched, in my judgment, by Mozart or anyone else.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> The genres in which composers wrote were changing during the period, so it's not entirely sensible to compare them in, say, entertainment music for wealthy aristocrats' social functions.
> 
> I give Mozart a significant edge in _*opera and entertainment music*_, and an obvious edge in _*concert arias*_, of which Beethoven only wrote one that I know of ("Ah, perfido"). I'd put _*choral music*_ in a category separate from the concert arias, and there I give Mozart a slight advantage despite having little taste for Classical period sacred music (I can't abide cheerful kyrie eleisons), since Beethoven has only a few works in this category. However, the _Missa Solemnis_ seems to me worth most of Mozart's masses put together.
> 
> ...


I think you ought to set aside your personal tastes to an extent. Beethoven composed one masterly Missa Solemnis and a quite ordinary (by his standards) mass in C - Mozart has two works, both unfinished of incalculable value plus a huge body of fine masses. Probably not meaningful to compare them but Mozart was a major composer for sacred works and Beethoven was not - though could have been.
Concertos - Mozart's range and breadth of recognised great concertos is such he should be considered a clear winner. Beethoven's last 3 PCs are fine works and the VC is probably, in my view - the best VC ever composed. And the triple concerto of course. Up against this Mozart has composed at least 20 world class concertos for many different instruments. I would put him ahead if he had only the piano concertos.
Symphonies - I give to Beethoven though it's close - I dont rate 1 and 2 at all - 4 and 8 are good but not great - so that leaves us with 3,5,6,7 and 9.

Just some thoughts for now.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

stomanek said:


> *I think you ought to set aside your personal tastes to an extent.* Beethoven composed one masterly Missa Solemnis and a quite ordinary (by his standards) mass in C - Mozart has two works, both unfinished of incalculable value plus a huge body of fine masses. Probably not meaningful to compare them but Mozart was a major composer for sacred works and Beethoven was not - though could have been.
> Concertos - Mozart's range and breadth of recognised great concertos is such he should be considered a clear winner. Beethoven's last 3 PCs are fine works and the VC is probably, in my view - the best VC ever composed. And the triple concerto of course. Up against this Mozart has composed at least 20 world class concertos for many different instruments. I would put him ahead if he had only the piano concertos.
> Symphonies - I give to Beethoven though it's close - I dont rate 1 and 2 at all - 4 and 8 are good but not great - so that leaves us with 3,5,6,7 and 9.
> 
> Just some thoughts for now.


Are we supposed to be making objective assessments here? Are personal tastes irrelevant?

Mozart's concertos for most instruments other than piano are fine works but I don't care about them. The very prospect of hearing them again annoys me; you couldn't drag me across the street to hear someone play his horn concertos, or anything with a bassoon, flute, oboe or harp in it. They're all rather insipid to me. But I find all of Beethoven's concertos interesting, including the much-maligned Triple Concerto. I wish he'd written more. I do greatly admire Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for Violin and Viola, and if we want to call it a concerto then it solidifies Mozart's lead.

Are Beethoven's 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th symphonies really inferior to most of Mozart's? Is the 8th inferior to _any_ of Mozart's, individual Mozart movements perhaps excepted? I find the 8th to have an aesthetic unity that Mozart equals only in his 40th.

As for choral works, I did give Mozart the edge, despite a lot of masses I don't care to hear, so what are you complaining about? Are you never satisfied until everyone's preferences align with yours?


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

poconoron said:


> *First genre- Symphonies*
> I, therefore, give Beethoven a significant advantage in this category.
> 
> *Second genre- Concertos*
> ...


I agree with everything you said poconoron! This is exactly how I would access Mozart vs Beethoven genre by genre.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Are we supposed to be making objective assessments here? Are personal tastes irrelevant?
> 
> Mozart's concertos for most instruments other than piano are fine works but I don't care about them. The very prospect of hearing them again annoys me; you couldn't drag me across the street to hear someone play his horn concertos, or anything with a bassoon, flute, oboe or harp in it. They're all rather insipid to me. But I find all of Beethoven's concertos interesting, including the much-maligned Triple Concerto. I wish he'd written more. I do greatly admire Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for Violin and Viola, and if we want to call it a concerto then it solidifies Mozart's lead.
> 
> ...


I did say "to an extent" re personal tastes.

You see - I prefer Mozart's piano sonatas - but I cant deny that Beethoven's are an impressive body of work in the way that Mozart's are not - there's a unity and quality about them and Mozart's output is quite fragmentary. So Beethoven wins. That is obectivism as far as I can reach.

Beethoven's 8th sy - an attractive work - but I dont think it deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as any of Mozart's last 4.

Over to you


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

stomanek said:


> Beethoven's 8th sy - an attractive work - but I dont think it deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as any of Mozart's last 4.


Beethoven's 8th is an inspired masterpiece, worthy of mention besides any of his, Mozart's or Haydn's best symphonies.

Over and out.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bulldog said:


> Vocal Music - I think Mozart has a big advantage here.
> 
> Chamber Music - Beethoven by a small margin.


I second this emotion.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Byron said:


> Beethoven's 8th is an inspired masterpiece, worthy of mention besides any of his, Mozart's or Haydn's best symphonies.
> 
> Over and out.


The 8th is often underestimated. I did that myself for years. Now I appreciate its rumbustious good humor and terseness. It wasn't ever going to influence the course of music as the Eroica or the 5th or the 9th did, but that's not a fault.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think Beethoven has the edge in chamber music and piano sonatas, the symphonies are a tie, Mozart wins in other categories.


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