# Finger Strength



## Davzon

Hi all, Recently I've started this thing where I work on two sets of fingers at once, so what I do is place fingers from C to G So for the first one will be hold down keys, E, F, G While alternating between the C and D keys, I find though when I get to E and F my hand seems to tense up, as well as when I do F and G keys with fingers 4 and 5. Am I lifting my fingers too high and causing this tension.


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## PetrB

I do admire your realization that you need and want independence of finger, but do despair at what little you know of it and how you are going about it.

Anatomy lesson #1: there is little or no muscle in your fingers, the majority of larger muscles used to use the fingers are in the hand, and for the piano, also the forearm, upper arm, shoulders, back -- in short, nearly the entire upper body.

There is no such thing, then, as "Finger Strength," what there is is holding the finger in such a way (curved, arch) where it can readily support and transfer the weight from the push from the hand muscles combined with the forearm muscles and weight of the arm. When we walk, we TRANSFER our body weight from one leg to the next, our feet acting more like cushions or shock absorbers: our feet are not doing the real work. Similarly, you want to 'walk' your hand and arm weight about the keyboard, your fingers as legs, the tips the feet.

Another very abstract but practical thing to think - the finger (tip) directs the hand. The finger, the fingertip, should lead, just as your foot goes forward when walking, and your leg is more then a follow through than a push. A lot of this idea is psychological, but has an ultimate effect in getting you to a strong but relaxed way of playing.

When keeping one note depressed while playing others, the most common error is applying pressure on that depressed note.
Think about this: once you play a note on a piano, and the finger is holding it depressed, there is nothing else, absolutely nothing in the way of effort, needed to further influence the sound from that set of strings. Relaxing that finger once the note is played is just what most people do not do. That is probably where the subsequent tightness is coming from.

It is the same principle for playing one note, several at slow tempo, or fistfuls at fast tempo. The moment you have played the note, held or not, that finger should be quickly relaxed until it is next needed.

A lot of the above is still infinitely subtle, and near impossible to explain in words, or words with accompanying pictures: if that were possible, there would be oceans of competent pianists who have learned to play solely from books containing just that information.

Please, hie thee to a decent private instructor? There is so much you could be getting only half-right, repeating mistakes until they are heavily programmed habits, those very hard to undo: you could be repetitively doing something which does not feel bad which could still cause a long term or permanent injury.

At the risk of saying something hurtful, there is almost no one in the western world who is actually so poor that they have nothing they can give up as an expense to find the means to take private lessons. Something you regularly consume, subscribe to, could be abandoned, and there is part or all of the cost of lessons. If the lessons are the most desired thing, what was given up is not even a matter of sacrifice, but a simple re-alignment of your top priorities.


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## Taggart

Davzon said:


> Hi all, Recently I've started this thing where I work on two sets of fingers at once, so what I do is place fingers from C to G So for the first one will be hold down keys, E, F, G While alternating between the C and D keys, I find though when I get to E and F my hand seems to tense up, as well as when I do F and G keys with fingers 4 and 5. Am I lifting my fingers too high and causing this tension.


PetrB got it *exactly * right - you need a *teacher*. Even if you posted a video, it would be far better to have a teacher look at you as a whole person, your posture, alignment of arms and elbows and shoulders, the way you actually play - hands and finger curvature - and so on - and then make meaningful comments and set you realistic goals.

You could also discuss repertoire - what *you* want to play and then the teacher could help you with the necesary technique.


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## Davzon

Yes, Very true, but I always keep watch on my body posture and don't let myself go tense, I do want a teacher but need the money first, I mean most teacher are like 30.00 an hour now, I was thinking maybe I could set up a lesson once a month, cause of cause that's better than nothing, and would give me enough time to get the things he asks of me done. but at the moment I guess playing scales and arpeggios and learning more advanced chords in different inversions. Then when I finally do get a teacher I can work straight on harder pieces I've always wanted to finish. I mean of cause I'm not expecting my scales and arpeggios to be perfect, but I do or the right things like practice with a metronome, at about 70 playing notes on the beat, then two notes a beat and so on. I most of the time record my practice most of the time to see where my weak areas are, cause when you play you can't always hear what you have got wrong.


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## PetrB

Davzon said:


> I guess playing scales and arpeggios and learning more advanced chords in different inversions. Then when I finally do get a teacher I can work straight on harder pieces I've always wanted to finish.


But what if you are doing hundreds of small things incorrectly? Thousands play well enough, i.e. they are hitting the right notes in the right order, while being hampered by a myriad of small incorrectly executed physical movements, now ingrained, and taking, if studies are correct, about twenty times the amount of time to correct vs. learning it correctly to begin with.

Maybe you are lucky, a natural, and there will not be much to correct or adjust. Don't wait. Yes, you are right, a lesson a month is better than none at all. You are incorrect, you will most likely not be allowed (rightly) to simply start on the more difficult pieces you would like to do. Those require, really, years of motor habits and reading ability, acquired over time, which you clearly do not have.

Get to that teacher now. Short of crime, find that money, give up snacks you pay for out of home, stop purchasing MP3's, or whatever various small, large things you spend money on. Find a very part time job, maybe for one or two people in the neighborhood who need some chore done once or twice a month.... etc. Where there is a will, there really is a way.

P.s. If really qualified, $30 per hour these days is cheap: qualified teachers, even those specializing in teaching young children, are typically $30 per HALF hour.


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## Davzon

yes you are right but I think most people will always play wrong in some type of way anyway, cause I see lots of you tube Professional Pianists and they seem to move far too much, but of cause that's mainly for show and to get a feeling of the piece they are playing, but after all we are humans and not robots, as long as I play the right notes and I don't feel like I'm tense then that's good enough for me, cause at the end of the day that's what you're aiming for to be relaxed and playing all the right notes. There is the dynamics aspect of it, that's rather difficult, cause when most play more louder they tend to play with more tense, I'll admit I do that, to be honest I think I know my weakness without a teacher in general cause I know when something doesn't feel right. I used to have a teacher going back a fair bit though maybe having the lessons has helped me to be able to do certain things on my own cause of that. maybe it would have been a different story if I never had lessons. Also having gone to music college I had some lessons there, At that time I was having lessons for all loads of instruments, guitar, bass, drums and even singing. So thinking back on it now, the reason I'm not so good on piano is cause I was trying to learn too many instruments.


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## hreichgott

Wait, you went to college for music, and you're trying to garner lessons from random YouTube videos??
(and you're okay with just playing the right notes while not being tense????)


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## PetrB

Davzon said:


> yes you are right but I think most people will always play wrong in some type of way anyway, cause I see lots of you tube Professional Pianists and they seem to move far too much, but of cause that's mainly for show and to get a feeling of the piece they are playing, but after all we are humans and not robots, as long as I play the right notes and I don't feel like I'm tense then that's good enough for me, cause at the end of the day that's what you're aiming for to be relaxed and playing all the right notes. There is the dynamics aspect of it, that's rather difficult, cause when most play more louder they tend to play with more tense, I'll admit I do that, to be honest I think I know my weakness without a teacher in general cause I know when something doesn't feel right. I used to have a teacher going back a fair bit though maybe having the lessons has helped me to be able to do certain things on my own cause of that. maybe it would have been a different story if I never had lessons. Also having gone to music college I had some lessons there, At that time I was having lessons for all loads of instruments, guitar, bass, drums and even singing. So thinking back on it now, the reason I'm not so good on piano is cause I was trying to learn too many instruments.


Here it is, passed down through generations of teachers to typically insecure, rationalizing and instantly self-defensive students.

If you don't drop all the rationales and self-defensiveness, taking any real advice or instruction becomes impossible, and there is little, if any at all, real hope of improvement.

The rest is up to you. The first step toward improvement is often finding a true, not false, humility.


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## Novelette

You know when something doesn't feel right?

That which is comfortable is not necessarily that which is right. There have been times in which I have incorrectly learned pieces--my technique was so lacking that my hands were unbelievably stiff and non-supple. I took advantage, so to speak, of that stiffness by using the most unbelievably sloppy movements. With that, I was able to play the bulk of a work, but I usually passed over the parts that were impossible to execute given my ghastly approach. In short, I was able to create some kind of ability to "play" a work, using completely incorrect techniques.

At some stage, I decided that I wanted to improve my overall technique and plunged myself back into lessons. While my lessons did not encompass the works that I "played" for myself, they did encompass intensive scale, trill, arpeggio, etc. exercises. As my overall technique gradually began to improve--i.e. my hands, wrists, and arms became less stiff and less inflexible--I lost the "ability" to "play" those self-"taught" works I previously played. I realized then and there that it is rarely a good sign that, as one's technique genuinely improves, one becomes unable to play works previously "played" [a bad sign inasmuch as it reveals the shortcomings of previous methods].

The bad techniques "felt" right, and I was able to play most of the right notes. I felt that it was good enough. But it was not.

Eventually I wanted more, so I decided to undertake what I knew was necessary but chose to avoid: real practice, under the supervision of a competent teacher who was not afraid to tell me candidly where I needed improvement.

Although I do not take regular lessons anymore, I do meet up with my teacher from time to time before beginning a new series of exercises in order to gain from her expertise. To do otherwise would be to risk falling into the same trap. And despite my greater diligence today, she still finds faults with my technique and posture and shows me how to correct it. Yes, it can be disheartening to hear that there are errors in our execution, but, ultimately, it is beneficial, if one has the wisdom to correct oneself.

There is never a level of proficiency so high that one cannot still improve, and improvement requires a great deal of patience and diligence.


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## Davzon

I'm so getting confused now, if what you're saying is right that a bad form and feel good then, getting a teacher is the only way forward. I have to admit going to music college helped me but I spend far too many times trying to learn everything and the fact we also had to do maths and English on top of that, don't know why we had to do maths and English I guess it was part of the college program, but to be honest I really found maths and English hard, still do. For some reason I still get lost in certain things of music even though I did go to music college. Saying that though I only did up to grade 5 music theory, I had a lot at the grade 8 music theory stuff and most of it is about writing music parts which I find hard to do, I do try and clap out rhythms and try to write then down, then use a program that plays the rhythm I worked out and see if it plays back how I thought it was written.


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## PetrB

Not confused: the light is dawning, anything you hope to realize, level you want to reach, YOU NEED A GOOD PRIVATE PIANO TEACHER.

There it is. Accept it. Go Forth and find one, start taking ordered and progressive lessons.


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## Ravndal

I agree with the posters above. A teacher does wonder. Not only does a teacher motivate, but he keeps you from seriously harming your hands/arms and possibly teaches you a thing or two about music - which helps you understand it and perceive it in a whole other way. 

After my experience - teachers usually gives better prices if their student shows potential and high motivation. If you get a teacher and show up each lesson showing that you have practiced thoroughly, and that you're willing to do what it takes - the teacher probably want to keep you. Too many students who wants to play Justin Bieber, and that is NOT very fun for a trained classical teacher.


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## Novelette

Davzon said:


> I'm so getting confused now, if what you're saying is right that a bad form and feel good then, getting a teacher is the only way forward. I have to admit going to music college helped me but I spend far too many times trying to learn everything and the fact we also had to do maths and English on top of that, don't know why we had to do maths and English I guess it was part of the college program, but to be honest I really found maths and English hard, still do. For some reason I still get lost in certain things of music even though I did go to music college. Saying that though I only did up to grade 5 music theory, I had a lot at the grade 8 music theory stuff and most of it is about writing music parts which I find hard to do, I do try and clap out rhythms and try to write then down, then use a program that plays the rhythm I worked out and see if it plays back how I thought it was written.


Having a decent, private teacher is essential.

You will surely find that at various levels of skill, different bad techniques will tend to feel "right". Usually, it's a technique that heavily uses your strengths, and avoiding your weaknesses. For example, I used to avoid using the fourth finger on the right hand. I would charge through some works of Haydn, Mozart, even Bach while completely avoiding the fourth finger. Somehow, I was able to play runs, arpeggios, etc, while completely avoiding the fourth finger. After a little while, I became used to that "technique"; as I played more and more with that error, I would surely have said that it "feels right".

It took me a great deal of time to undo that bad habit; correcting that error, and forcing myself to use the fourth finger, was painful, difficult, and unpleasant. As I began to become accustomed to the proper way to execute runs, arpeggios, etc., I found that I could no longer play the works that I used to be able to play with that bad technique. I had to re-learn them: "reinventing the wheel", as PetrB said.

The proper techniques are not necessarily those that are meant to be the most comfortable, they are meant to give the player a greater ability to execute the particular demands of the repertoire. Many works--especially Schumann's!--call for what might be called "unnatural" hand movements [think especially of the Toccata in C]. Those works are extraordinarily challenging and demanding for the performer. Yet even still, they likely cannot ever be played by anyone but those with a polished technique. And a teacher is required to show you how best to use the instrument.

Hreichgott is absolutely right that YouTube videos can't be sufficient guides, she and PetrB have pointed out that there is far more to playing the piano correctly than simple finger strength and independence. Yes, those are necessary attributes, but they only come in concert with proper hand, wrist, arm, shoulder, back, leg, etc. posture.


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## Ravndal

Yes, especially the toccata in C. Schumann destroyed his hand because of that particularly piece, he played it 10 times in full tempo each day. And good luck playing pieces from Bach's WTC without proper training. Ambulance inc.


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## Novelette

Ravndal said:


> Yes, especially the toccata in C. Schumann destroyed his hand because of that particularly piece, he played it 10 times in full tempo each day. And good luck playing pieces from Bach's WTC without proper training. Ambulance inc.


Unnatural movements, I swear! Okay, maybe not. At the very least, it calls for incredibly flexible and independent fingers.

I very nearly wept out of fright when I first saw the score for that one.


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## Davzon

True I do understand a teacher is needed, but then it's down to finding a good teacher, cause that's the other problem, if I don't know what's right and wrong how can i possible tell who are good and who are bad ? makes me wonder why did the music industry start making do it yourself books ? there must be a reason behind everything, cause lets say you end up with a bad teacher wouldn't you have been better of with a do it yourself book than with a teacher that wasn't getting you anyway sooner than what you could have been? sorry I know you're all going what the heck, I just over think things. I started reading a book on Beethoven and he's a bit like me was bad at English and maths but sadly I never had a dad that pushed my with music at an early age, makes me wonder would I have been as good at Beethoven? (everyone laughs and thinks ya right) lol


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## Ravndal

The "do it yourself books" is made to make money. Not much else.


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