# Blame it on music?



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Wagner blamed for Hitler; 
Elvis blamed for teenage sex;
The Beatles blamed for hippies and drugs;
Iron Maiden blamed for teen suicides;
Marilyn Manson blamed for Columbine

Yet, as the still-relevant movie _A Clockwork Orange_ explores this question, it still remains unanswered. Is there a causal connection between art (literature, cinema, music) and dark acts of sex, crime, or violence? Do music and cinema really affect us to this degree?

Is there a 'dark side' of humanity which art can tap into, or are we completely creatures of will?

Isn't this the reason that exposure to pornography is considered bad, and the reason we discourage its use?

What do you think? Should we blame it on art, or is art simply the catalyst which evokes the dark forces already present in Mankind? More specifically, are young males the problem?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Yes, blame at least some of it on art, especially movies. Rap music rants against racism, but a lot of it is also racist towards Whites. Some movies glorify violence, such as Natural Born Killers, and people actually copy it in real life. Some encourage teenage rebellion. Sometimes it is out of the artist's control. Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet caused a lot of suicide cases, and In Cold Blood which actually tried to depict the consequences of violence in a responsible way (showing the unglorified execution of the criminals), still manage to inspire copy cats. And of course video games. I heard somewhere they use soothing classical music in subway and bus stations, so that the young punks don't get into the mood for violence.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

There's probably some good academic research on the subject. Perhaps a university student with access to good academic journal databases can find some articles. Of course, academic research often contradicts other academic research using similar methodology so it can be tricky to form any conclusions, but I don't know if that'll be the case here. I have a friend who worked on a research study that was published a few years back in an academic journal studying violent video games and actual violence and did not a find statistically significant link between the two. It should be noted that the study looked at video game playing and violence as a whole and did not study specific violent individuals.

Anyway, I suppose that art could make someone think that certain acts are normal when they really aren't. I could certainly see this being true with movies and TV where something like serial monogamy is made out to be an everyday norm that is not at all strange, but I'm saying this just on a hunch without any knowledge in the area. Plus, I'm not sure how this works with music. Words can influence (I guess), but can instrumental music change behavior in this regard? It's a good question, but I would only be pulling something out of you know where if I tired to answer it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Yes, pop music is totally to blame for Donald Trump.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Music and media is by far the easiest way to influence society.

A lot of classical music doesn't have a "message" per se, but attach a message to strong emotions and you can have an impact.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Francis Poulenc said:


> Music and media is by far the easiest way to influence society.
> 
> A lot of classical music doesn't have a "message" per se, but attach a message to strong emotions and you can have an impact.


This is true and of course the whole advertising/marketing industry uses art (amongst other things) to persuade opinion. Then again, is it the music itself that sends the message or is it everything else associated with the music? A lot of people consider Justin Bieber to be super cool (not me, but it's a good example), but is it really the music or are people influenced by the imagery of the singers and stuff like that along with persuasive people saying that it's cool?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I think that loud music may occasionally cause car accidents.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Klassik said:


> This is true and of course the whole advertising/marketing industry uses art (amongst other things) to persuade opinion. Then again, is it the music itself that sends the message or is it everything else associated with the music? A lot of people consider Justin Bieber to be super cool (not me, but it's a good example), but is it really the music or are people influenced by the imagery of the singers and stuff like that along with persuasive people saying that it's cool?


It's definitely the image. The music is the same rehashed garbage written by a handful of middle aged men like Max Martin. The recording industry sells an image and the goal is have it take root in young peoples' minds so they keep listening to the same stuff for years on end.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> I think that loud music may occasionally cause car accidents.


I came up with a solution to that a few years ago: Hook up a five pound sledge hammer to a lever and motor and have it thump rhythmically against the underside of the driver's seat. Same effect, no music needed.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

bz3 said:


> It's definitely the image. The music is the same rehashed garbage written by a handful of middle aged men like Max Martin. The recording industry sells an image and the goal is have it take root in young peoples' minds so they keep listening to the same stuff for years on end.


Yeah, even the more "serious" bands hinge on the image thing, the untidy look, so they appear more respectable than the teenybopper idols. Yes their music may be a cut above, and play their own instruments, but still just unoriginal, but catchier music, influenced by the older bands. Popular music now is not much different than in the early 90's.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Yeah, even the more "serious" bands hinge on the image thing, the untidy look, so they appear more respectable than the teenybopper idols. Yes their music may be a cut above, and play their own instruments, but still just unoriginal, but catchier music, influenced by the older bands. Popular music now is not much different than in the early 90's.


Quite true! Of course, if Maestro Muti (I'm just using him as an example) got a facial tattoo, a perm, a bunch of gold chains, and started conducting while wearing wife beaters, I'm sure a lot of people who like him now would call him a rubbish conductor even if his music sounded the same.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I say it not music fault today but the parents are not doing there jobs in some cases.Also with all the negative music like hip hop/rap it makes it worse.This is why i do not like songs it give people bad ideas sometimes.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> I say it not music fault today but the parents are not doing there jobs in some cases.Also with all the negative music like hip hop/rap it makes it worse.This is why i do not like songs it give people bad ideas sometimes.


Spot on, show off years later on people.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

If music can be such an influence on society, can someone please tell me why the world is still not in perfect harmony?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> If music can be such an influence on society, can someone please tell me why the world is still not in perfect harmony?


Are we not in complete unity here on TC? Why, if we had a TC anthem, we could drown out the anthems of every other classical music forum!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> If music can be such an influence on society, can someone please tell me why the world is still not in perfect harmony?


I blame Coca Cola


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I blame Coca Cola


So true! I think that excessive sugar and caffeine are more dangerous than any piece of music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When I worked for Muzak (yes, it's true), there was a Rexall drug store in old downtown, on a corner with a bus stop. The outside entrance had a covered 'ceiling' overhanging with lights. 
There was a problem with guys hanging around the bus stop with boom-boxes, playing loud music. To counteract this, they had me install 2 speakers into the overhang which hooked up to the inside speakers we had previously installed, which played light, innocuous easy-listening music.

It worked; the distraction of "other" music discouraged and spoiled the effect of the boom-boxes, even though it was light and innocuous fare.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I take responsibility for my own actions. I don't rely on any crutches.

It's called having a moral code.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I take responsibility for my own actions. I don't rely on any crutches.
> 
> It's called having a moral code.


Yes, ultimately, this is true; otherwise, Marilyn Manson would have been arrested for the Columbine murders.

But does art (literature, TV, cinema, music)_ affect _people, and urge them toward certain behaviors?


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

As Frank Zappa once said to the PMRC: "If music had any influence over our actions, we would all be getting laid when we want"


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes, blame at least some of it on art, especially movies. Rap music rants against racism, but a lot of it is also racist towards Whites. *Some movies glorify violence, such as Natural Born Killers*, and people actually copy it in real life. Some encourage teenage rebellion. Sometimes it is out of the artist's control. Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet caused a lot of suicide cases, and In Cold Blood which actually tried to depict the consequences of violence in a responsible way (showing the unglorified execution of the criminals), still manage to inspire copy cats. And of course video games. I heard somewhere they use soothing classical music in subway and bus stations, so that the young punks don't get into the mood for violence.


If you really think this about NBK you have missed the point of that film. Quite honestly, anyone who perpetrated a so called "copy cat" style crime that parallels something out of a film was incredibly likely to commit some form of crime anyway, bad eggs are bad eggs.

As to the OP, I think some art is a way for people to have a dialogue about things (oddly enough I don't think absolute music fits into this category it is more an abstraction) a way for people to unpack what they think about things. Yes there will be some bad people and even monsters that enjoy beautiful things, such is human nature. Art is not the cause, if anything art helps sooth the sometimes problematic nature of mankind.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Fugue Meister said:


> If you really think this about NBK you have missed the point of that film. Quite honestly, anyone who perpetrated a so called "copy cat" style crime that parallels something out of a film was incredibly likely to commit some form of crime anyway, bad eggs are bad eggs.
> 
> As to the OP, I think some art is a way for people to have a dialogue about things (oddly enough I don't think absolute music fits into this category it is more an abstraction) a way for people to unpack what they think about things. Yes there will be some bad people and even monsters that enjoy beautiful things, such is human nature. Art is not the cause, if anything art helps sooth the sometimes problematic nature of mankind.


If art can do good, it can also do bad. I don't think the stuff in the Clockwork Orange is only fiction. I don't see how Beethoven can stimulate violence, but punk rock in particular can have a bad influence (ever listen to Black Flag or see some of their sleeve covers?)


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> If art can do good, it can also do bad. I don't think the stuff in the Clockwork Orange is only fiction. I don't see how Beethoven can stimulate violence, but punk rock in particular can have a bad influence (ever listen to Black Flag or see some of their sleeve covers?)


I'm not disputing that it can't be bad, I'm disputing that it can't make people do bad things, if they do bad things it was in them to begin with and would have found an outlet either way.

As for art being bad, if we didn't have art that was awful, sublime art wouldn't move us like it does.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, ultimately, this is true; otherwise, Marilyn Manson would have been arrested for the Columbine murders.
> 
> But does art (literature, TV, cinema, music)_ affect _people, and urge them toward certain behaviors?


It can if one is morally weak and adopts bad habits-drugs, alcohol, certain music-gangsta rap, acid rock- can definitely play a significant role in wrecking one's life.

Of course, kids are very impressionable and try to emulate the (sometimes bad) behavior of their "idols".


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Daniel Atkinson said:


> As Frank Zappa once said to the PMRC: "If music had any influence over our actions, we would all be getting laid when we want"


Yeah but that's why we have a right hand. It will never become vestigial.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, ultimately, this is true; otherwise, Marilyn Manson would have been arrested for the Columbine murders.


Are you even aware that Marilyn Manson is a character; a stage persona?

But if someone hears a song with violent themes and then commits a crime. THEY are the idiot or the evil disturbed person, NOT someone that writes highly exaggerated songs as their dayjob.

I'm surprised this thread even exists, Millionrainbows is obviously looking for attention


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

David OByrne said:


> Are you even aware that Marilyn Manson is a character; a stage persona?
> 
> But if someone hears a song with violent themes and then commits a crime. THEY are the idiot or the evil disturbed person, NOT someone that writes highly exaggerated songs as their dayjob.
> 
> I'm surprised this thread even exists, Millionrainbows is obviously looking for attention


Which one of us isn't looking for attention in some way? It's all part of being human.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> It can if one is morally weak and adopts bad habits-drugs, alcohol, certain music-gangsta rap, acid rock- can definitely play a significant role in wrecking one's life.
> 
> Of course, kids are very impressionable and try to emulate the (sometimes bad) behavior of their "idols".


But then the question is if the music itself is driving the shallow behavior or if it's the "lifestyles" of the artists that drives things. I suppose it could depend on the situation.

A teenybopper could see Bieber, for example, becoming popular, rich, and famous while being a incredibly shallow and think that the party lifestyle is the way to go. Plus, it's not just Bieber. There's hundreds of "Idols" who achieve fame and fortune with the same lifestyle. That certainly could lead to a teenybopper thinking that the shallow lifestyle is the only option. Then again, there were plenty of shallow people before the modern pop art industry got going so they may just be taking advantage of human shortcomings/weaknesses instead of causing anything. These are just guesses though and I'm not really sure if it answers the question if the art itself without all the things attached to art can lead to bad behaviors.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> But then the question is if the music itself is driving the shallow behavior or if it's the "lifestyles" of the artists that drives things. I suppose it could depend on the situation.
> 
> A teenybopper could see Bieber, for example, becoming popular, rich, and famous while being a incredibly shallow and think that the party lifestyle is the way to go. Plus, it's not just Bieber. There's hundreds of "Idols" who achieve fame and fortune with the same lifestyle. That certainly could lead to a teenybopper thinking that the shallow lifestyle is the only option. Then again, there were plenty of shallow people before the modern pop art industry got going so they may just be taking advantage of human shortcomings/weaknesses instead of causing anything. These are just guesses though and I'm not really sure if it answers the question if the art itself without all the things attached to art can lead to bad behaviors.


Heck, I've watched a lot of teens growing up, and when they give me or some other parents lip, I usually hear the same words from the TV shows they watch. They sympathize with the characters, and feel more justified in their defiance. I see some agree that weak minds are easy to sway. TV show creators need to be more careful with the stuff they put out. But they are only interested in drawing in more viewers, and viewers like to watch conflict.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Heck, I've watched a lot of teens growing up, and when they give me or some other parents lip, I usually hear the same words from the TV shows they watch. They sympathize with the characters, and feel more justified in their defiance. I see some agree that weak minds are easy to sway. TV show creators need to be more careful with the stuff they put out. But they are only interested in drawing in more viewers, and viewers like to watch conflict.


You've hit on something that I've been thinking about lately. I work with a lot of teens/"tweens" due to the nature of my occupation. I've been talking to them and they seem to know that gore-filled movies and video games are obviously fictional, but they watch Disney type movies, TV shows, and read teen fiction books and believe that what is in them truly reflects real life. They never get an accurate picture of how "adult life" works so it seems that they base work ethic and such off of what they see their idols do. Adults have never talked to them about the real world and how art does not fully reflect the real world. Of course, they don't know how marketing and such impacts their lives.

This isn't generational bashing or anything like that. Probably a big part of the problem is that the adults believe the same fairy tales that the kids do. We've probably all come across some 40 something year old mother who truly believes that Britney Spears' music speaks to them. Maybe it does, but that's pretty sad IMO.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of fictional movies and books, but I don't think it should be censored. It has it's own artistic value. What needs to happen is that adults need to have honest discussions with kids about the real world and the messages in fictional/non-fictional works. Of course, as we all know, many kids will never be fortunate enough to have these conversations with adults.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> We've probably all come across some 40 something year old mother who truly believes that Britney Spears' music speaks to them.


 no, never came across that. You're right, educate them instead of taking away the TV, they'll pick it up from their peers who watch TV anyway. Glad we had this conversation. I come down hard on them sometimes, and they view me as a grumpy guy who hates stuff that is in with the times. Especially when they play Taylor Swift and stuff, I can't be around without showing some kind of contempt.


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