# Quality of librettos



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

An interesting topic to discuss.

How much do you consider that librettos influence in the quality of an opera as a whole?

Do you think the average quality of the librettos is good, acceptable or bad?

Do you think that some operas should better be performed in non-staged form because of the bad quality of their librettos?

Some examples of good and bad librettos?


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Ideally, opera librettos should be equal in quality to any other play, but the problem here is that they are restricted by some musical forms that, due to its own nature, stop the natural fluency of the plot.

It's a fact that conversation-like operas, with no arias, duets, etc. are, generally speaking, more satisfying in terms of theatrical development, but must it be so necessarily? We must think that many play writers of the past used to write their plays in verse (a non-natural way to speak) without deacreasing the quality of their work. Those writers used other non-natural tecniques too, such as monologues. So, the problem is about musical forms or about good or bad librettists?


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Perhaps the key thing here is to have a natural born theatrical composer?

I'm thinking of Mozart, for example. He was such a gifted composer as to enhance the quality of his librettos using musical means. How? He was able to depict human emotions in a completele convincing way, so that in any of his arias the theatrical plot goes forward inadvertently. We get to know their characters more accurately with a single aria than with tons of recitative!

Let's see his _Don Giovanni_. This opera libretto is not as good as many say. It's kind of cumbersome, and some characters are difficult to understand (Doña Elvira, particularly). It is Mozart's music that makes it so great! That is the reason why this opera is so difficult to put on stage. You need the best singers and the best conductor because it's necessary to take out all the music quality if you want the whole building not to fall down.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't regard libretti as 'good' or 'bad'. The libretto is what it is & although we've had some fun on here suggesting alternative endings, the fact that a libretto doesn't make sense doesn't matter to me at all.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Most libretti to me are either fantastic or pretty good. My libretto to my opera "The Death of Osiris" is incredibly boring and unemotional, but my more recent ones are thankfully a bit better if I may say so myself. Wagner's libretti to me are pretty good but not the best ones I know. The best I have ever paid much attention to is the libretto to Britten's "Albert Herring" (sorry, I can't remember who exactly wrote it.)


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Other examples of composers that enhance the quality of their librettos are Haendel and Purcell.

_Giulio Cesare_ libretto is not exactly a masterpiece although it is a very good libretto compared to those of other Haendel's operas. But Haendel manages to create a theatrical masterpiece out of it.

Purcell's task was even more difficult with such weak librettos as _Dido and Aeneas_ and those of his semi-operas. That is why his achievements are even more outstanding. The second half of _Dido and Aeneas_ contains the most moving character depicting I can think of. What a tragedy he couldn't live enough as to compose operas based upon really good, full librettos!


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

sospiro said:


> I don't regard libretti as 'good' or 'bad'. The libretto is what it is & although we've had some fun on here suggesting alternative endings, the fact that a libretto doesn't make sense doesn't matter to me at all.


I can agree with that when you listen to recordings. That happens to me too when I listen to pop/rock music. I don't care about the lyrics because I don't expect very much of them. But what if you're attending to a staged opera performance? It's impossible not be concerned about the quality of the story, I think.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

That's why I love Britten's operas!


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Most libretti to me are either fantastic or pretty good. My libretto to my opera "The Death of Osiris" is incredibly boring and unemotional, but my more recent ones are thankfully a bit better if I may say so myself. Wagner's libretti to me are pretty good but not the best ones I know. The best I have ever paid much attention to is the libretto to Britten's "Albert Herring" (sorry, I can't remember who exactly wrote it.)


Well, when we watch them on stage we will judge. 

About Wagner's librettos, I think _Der Ring_ libretto is outstanding. I don't understand why it is so underrated sometimes. Perhaps are those opinions based upon some prejudice against Wagner? I don't like _Parsifal _libretto, though.

Britten worked upon very good librettos. _Albert Herring_ is one of his bests indeed. My favourite opera of his, _The Turn of the Screw_ is another example.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

pollux said:


> Other examples of composers that enhance the quality of their librettos are Haendel and Purcell.
> 
> _Giulio Cesare_ libretto is not exactly a masterpiece although it is a very good libretto compared to those of other Haendel's operas. But Haendel manages to create a theatrical masterpiece out of it.
> 
> Purcell's task was even more difficult with such weak librettos as _Dido and Aeneas_ and those of his semi-operas. That is why his achievements are even more outstanding. The second half of _Dido and Aeneas_ contains the most moving character depicting I can think of. What a tragedy he couldn't live enough as to compose operas based upon really good, full librettos!


Poor Schubert was evidently one composer who wasn't able to surmount the challenges posed by poor libretti. A number of critics have noted the overall quality of the music he wrote for _Fierrabras_ and _Alfonso und Estrella_, for example, while stating their belief that awkward story lines kept both of these works from becoming more popular.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think a libretto can help, along with the music, to be an opera's saving grace if the original story is crap. There are some that not even the most talented wordsmith would be able to save, however - I still giggle at Mozart's exasperation over The Goose of Cairo, an opera he (thankfully) abandoned thanks to the ludicrous story.

MAuer mentions Schubert as suffering from poor libretti - I gather von Weber and Bizet were two others who came into this category. Was there some kind of timeline when composers, critics and audience alike realised that a libretto is a more important component of a work than previously thought and deserves more emphasis than previously given?


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

MAuer said:


> A number of critics have noted the overall quality of the music he wrote for _Fierrabras_ and _Alfonso und Estrella_, for example, while stating their belief that awkward story lines kept both of these works from becoming more popular.


The same thing seems to happen to Schumann's _Genoveva_. But, is music from these operas really great in theatrical terms or it resembles more to a song cycle? I'm asking, I don't know any of these operas.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> I gather von Weber and Bizet were two others who came into this category.


Well, Weber's _Euryanthe _is a case of a libretto being so bad that nobody dares to put it on stage  On Bizet, I suppose you're not talking about _Carmen _



elgars ghost said:


> Was there some kind of timeline when composers, critics and audience alike realised that a libretto is a more important component of a work than previously thought and deserves more emphasis than previously given?


I don't think so. The discussion "Prima la musica, poi le parole?" was present from the very beginning. The problem appeared when the castratti and divas imposed the star-system in the opera world


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

I must admit that the plot and the words are far less important to me than the music itself. However,words and music are to be dramatically interwoven throughout the composition and performance. Anyway, I wouldn´t expect the same literary quality from a librettist as I do from a playwright.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

CameraEye said:


> Anyway, I wouldn´t expect the same literary quality from a librettist as I do from a playwright.


But there are librettists who also are first-rate writers.

Let's think of Hoffmannstahl, for example. His libretto for _Der Rosenkavalier _is so good that it is sometimes performed without music in Austria.

Philippe Quinault was a french baroque poet who wrote many of Lully's opera librettos. His libretto for _Atys_ is an absolute masterpiece, one of the most beautiful ever written.

Not to speak about Molière, many of whose plays where conceived from the beginning as comédie-ballets, that's to say plays with spoken and sung parts. This performance of _Le bourgeoise gentilhomme_, which I fully recommend, could be seen in Madrid last season (it's available on DVD):


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Pollux - rest assured, I'm not referring to Carmen (especially as I like the 'priming pin' double-entendre)!


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> Pollux - rest assured, I'm not referring to Carmen (especially as I like the 'priming pin' double-entendre)!


What a relief. What is a 'priming pin'?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Remember after the habanera when Carmen first spots Don Jose? She asks him what he's doing and he says he's making a chain for his priming pin, which I think is a piece of apparatus used for preparing a gun cartridge or something like that. Her teasing reply ('Ton epinglette - vraiment!') suggests that she thinks he may have been toying with a different kind!


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

> But there are librettists who also are first-rate writers.


I absolutely agree with you and the ideal thing, as has been said above, would be to have first-rate opera composers supported by first-rate librettists/writers. But,generally,the best operas ( or regarded as such) have always displayed better music than words or plots. The audience attending an opera is in general more "musical" than "literary" and as long as the plot makes sense, they don´t take great pains to make out the meaning of the words (usually in a different language from theirs). Reading the libretto doesn´t help too much, as you might miss other relevant things. This doesn´t happen when you are watching a play on stage.

I wonder why good writers haven´t got engaged in this task more often. I guess it won´t be that easy and that special qualities,besides good writing techniques are needed. As for operas with plots based on classical playwrights as Shakespeare, I don´t think they have succeeded for the plots but for the music. Shakespeare wrote the plot ( perfect to start with) but not the words.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

CameraEye said:


> As for operas with plots based on classical playwrights as Shakespeare, I don´t think they have succeeded for the plots but for the music. Shakespeare wrote the plot ( perfect to start with) but not the words.


An excellent post, but I have to question this last bit. I would argue, for example, that Verdi's late Shakespearean adaptations _Otello_ and _Falstaff_ (librettos by Boito) are two brilliant instances of operas where plot and music support one another flawlessly. The words may not be Shakespeare's, but these works nonetheless capture the respectively tragic and comic spirits of the original plays.

In fact, I would maintain that _Otello_ is in its own way as good as Shakespeare's original, while _Falstaff_ is a clear improvement on _The Merry Wives of Windsor_, one of the Bard's weaker efforts.


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

amfortas said:


> An excellent post, but I have to question this last bit. I would argue, for example, that Verdi's late Shakespearean adaptations _Otello_ and _Falstaff_ (librettos by Boito) are two brilliant instances of operas where plot and music support one another flawlessly. The words may not be Shakespeare's, but these works nonetheless capture the respectively tragic and comic spirits of the original plays.
> 
> In fact, I would maintain that _Otello_ is in its own way as good as Shakespeare's original, while _Falstaff_ is a clear improvement on _The Merry Wives of Windsor_, one of the Bard's weaker efforts.


I must have failed to express my ideas but you have perfectly explained the point I actually wanted to make. I meant that "borrowed" plots ,even from Shakespeare, will not make good operas if they are not skillfully adapted by both librettist and composer. In the operas you mentioned, Verdi, Boito and Shakespeare formed a perfect trio. (and in this order, I would say)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

CameraEye said:


> As for operas with plots based on classical playwrights as Shakespeare, I don´t think they have succeeded for the plots but for the music. Shakespeare wrote the plot ( perfect to start with) but not the words.


I am about to start writing my third opera based on (my favourite play) Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night." As I always write my own libretto, I have decided to translate Shakespeare's language into modern English while sticking to the basic structure of the whole play.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

amfortas said:


> In fact, I would maintain that _Otello_ is in its own way as good as Shakespeare's original, while _Falstaff_ is a clear improvement on _The Merry Wives of Windsor_, one of the Bard's weaker efforts.


How interesting! I have exactly the same opinion as you about _Falstaff _and _The Merry Wives of Windsor._ Not so about _Otello_ which I think loses too much in Boito's libretto. He eliminates the secondary plots which give Shakespeare's plays such richness and complexity.

Besides, it's obvious that these two operas -among others- benefit from the quality of their libretto both directly and indirectly. Directly because the libretto increases the theatrical quality of the work and indirectly because it eases and increases the composer's inspiration. Yes it does! That's another most important consideration to take into account.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Verdi wanted to turn ALL of Shakespeare's works into operas.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

pollux said:


> The same thing seems to happen to Schumann's _Genoveva_. But, is music from these operas really great in theatrical terms or it resembles more to a song cycle? I'm asking, I don't know any of these operas.


I don't think the music in _Fierrabras_ resembles a song cycle. The problem is, indeed, the story line. I don't think the structure of the plot really builds empathy for many of the characters other than Fierrabras -- and then he disappears until the end of the second (final) act.


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Verdi wanted to turn ALL of Shakespeare's works into operas.


He adored Shakespeare. I wish he had accomplished King_ Lear_, one of my most loved plays.


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## CameraEye (Nov 18, 2011)

pollux said:


> How interesting! I have exactly the same opinion as you about _Falstaff _and _The Merry Wives of Windsor._ Not so about _Otello_ which I think loses too much in Boito's libretto. He eliminates the secondary plots which give Shakespeare's plays such richness and complexity.
> 
> In my opinion, Verdi´s _Otello_ is as great an opera as Shakespeare´s _Othello_ is a play. Verdi found the inspiration for his opera in his idol, Shakespeare, but I don´t think his aim was to make a sheer copy of the plot. Due to its musical nature, it is almost impossible to provide an opera with the literary subtleness and complexity you might expect in a normal play. Through his music, Verdi compensated this lack of complexity by intensifying the passion in the drama, succeeding thus in equalling both works in terms of quality.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

What do people think of Don Carlos as a play? I haven't read the Schiller original, but I think the plot is interesting apart from the problematic deus ex machina ending (and I've yet to see a production that deals with this satisfactorily)


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> In fact, I would maintain that _Otello_ is in its own way as good as Shakespeare's original, while *Falstaff is a clear improvement on The Merry Wives of Windsor, one of the Bard's weaker efforts.*


I agree completely. The Merry Wives of Windsor, although containing many a hilarious pun and very funny lines, it does drag on a bit.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

pollux said:


> How interesting! I have exactly the same opinion as you about _Falstaff _and _The Merry Wives of Windsor._ Not so about _Otello_ which I think loses too much in Boito's libretto. He eliminates the secondary plots which give Shakespeare's plays such richness and complexity.


But _Othello_ is one of the rare Shakespeare plays that doesn't *have* a secondary plot--unless you count the first act business with Desdemona's father and the Venetian senate (more of a prologue really, which Boito skillfully jettisoned while keeping several of the key points it establishes). But there's none of the usual parallel story lines, or alternation of "high" and "low" characters (how many people even remember _Othello_ has a clown in its cast--though just barely?).

In terms of general plot outline, then, Boito's libretto is very close to the original. And besides, Shakespeare's drama is about straightforward, outsized passions--making it, as George Bernard Shaw a bit dismissively observed, already somewhat operatic itself. So it is only fitting that the play would find such a powerful realization in Verdi and Boito's work.



Aksel said:


> I agree completely. The Merry Wives of Windsor, although containing many a hilarious pun and very funny lines, it does drag on a bit.


The other point to bear in mind is that several of Falstaff's best moments in Verdi's opera come, not from _Merry Wives_, but from the _Henry IV_ history plays, where the character was first introduced. Literary critics have long lamented that Shakespeare presented a debased version of his great comic creation in _Merry Wives_; Boito solved the problem by taking the best of Falstaff from all of these plays.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

amfortas said:


> But _Othello_ is one of the rare Shakespeare plays that doesn't *have* a secondary plot--unless you count the first act business with Desdemona's father and the Venetian senate.


Call it secondary plot or secondary characters (I can't tell because my _Othello _copy is 500 kms. away right now), they make Shakespeare's plays something greater.

Nevertheless, these two operas are my favourite of Verdi's output so there's no point in discussing about their value.

More controversial perhaps are my tastes on operas such as _Aida_ or _Norma_, two operas with excellent music that I can't fully enjoy because of such bad librettos. I love the Nile Scene or _Norma _final scene, but I simply can't stand their more dramatic scenes like Amneris' lamento when Radames is being judged or that when Norma is about to kill her children. To my taste these are boring scenes because of their lack of true dramatic value, and I don't think in these cases Verdi nor Bellini solve the problem with their music.

These kind of scenes are what make some people draw back from opera, thinking of it as something melodramatic and pretentious.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

pollux said:


> More controversial perhaps are my tastes on operas such as _Aida_ or _Norma_, two operas with excellent music that I can't fully enjoy because of such bad librettos. I love the Nile Scene or _Norma _final scene, but I simply can't stand their more dramatic scenes like Amneris' lamento when Radames is being judged or that when Norma is about to kill her children. To my taste these are boring scenes because of their lack of true dramatic value, and I don't think in these cases Verdi nor Bellini solve the problem with their music.
> 
> These kind of scenes are what make some people draw back from opera, thinking of it as something melodramatic and pretentious.


The scene of Amneris listening to Radames' trial is one of my favorites in _Aida_ -- especially when Agnes Baltsa is singing Amneris. This woman is paying bitterly for her jealous impulses, and Baltsa really lets us hear her anguish. She now realizes she's powerless to undo the mischief she's set in motion. For me, it's the moment this character becomes sympathetic.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

MAuer said:


> The scene of Amneris listening to Radames' trial is one of my favorites in _Aida_ -- especially when Agnes Baltsa is singing Amneris. This woman is paying bitterly for her jealous impulses, and Baltsa really lets us hear her anguish. She now realizes she's powerless to undo the mischief she's set in motion. For me, it's the moment this character becomes sympathetic.


Do you think so? I coud easily strangle her (Amneris, I mean, not Agnes Baltsa). 

On the other hand, that's the greatness of opera. It is possible for a great artist like Baltsa to even enhance the quality of the work itself. That happens sometimes. For example, I'm not very fond of _La Boheme_  but when I listen to Beecham's performance (which is kind of light-hearted) I can enjoy it far more than when I listen to Karajan's (he takes the libretto much more seriously).


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