# Is Vaughan Williams only for old fogeys?



## Guest (Sep 10, 2020)

I posted a question about RVW's Symphony No 6 in the 'composer guestbook'. No replies. I also wondered if the reason that thread seemed so sane and polite one, was because it says something about the status of RVW. Tempers don't fray (as they do among LvB and WAM fans and detractors). I wondered if it is an age thing - that RVW tends to appeal to an older audience and so attracts less controversy?

Whatever. I thought if I posted under a mildly provocative title, someone might take a look. :devil:

I'm only just starting to listen to his symphonies (other than the soundtrack to _Scott of the Antartic_ - a quintessentially British story and movie if ever there was one) and I'm hearing echoes of Shostakovich in Symphony No 6. Anyone else hear it?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

No. :tiphat: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I think there's little controversy about VW because there's nothing to hate about Vaughan Williams. Only Britten seemed to hate him.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

He seems to me to be sneered at a fair bit. I guess pieces like Fantasia on Greensleeves get up some people's noses.

However, I'm a fan, and I think his series of symphonies is fascinating. I find 3 and 5 very moving; 4 and 6 a blast; 8 and 9 intriguing. I'm less of a fan of 7 (although it's got good moments). I quite like 2 but see it as him learning his craft. (It was, though, one of my favourite pieces many years ago.) I don't bother much with 1, as I need to be pushed hard to listen to choral symphonies.

Above all, his work is usually enjoyable! I think that might be what causes him to be looked down upon.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

My opinion on the topic is not relevant since, at some point when I was not looking, I became an old fogey. (Of course, it must be admitted that prior to that, I was a middle-age fogey, and prior to that a young one.)


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think there's little controversy about VW because there's nothing to hate about Vaughan Williams. Only Britten seemed to hate him.


I shall quibble with that (as I'm sure you'd expect me to). Britten was certainly not a fan, but I don't think he 'hated' him. He thought him amateurish, which ticked him off no end whenever that trait was displayed by anyone in anything.

He felt no sympathy with Elgar either, but came round to recording 'Gerontius' in the early 1970s. I think if Britten had lived a fair few more years, we might have seen a similar warming to the RVW legacy. (Entirely speculation on my part, I admit!)


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2020)

JAS said:


> My opinion on the topic is not relevant since, at some point when I was not looking, I became an old fogey. (Of course, it must be admitted that prior to that, I was a middle-age fogey, and prior to that a young one.)


What are the thresholds for young, middle and old fogeydom I wonder?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I've heard that one has to have seen the British countryside in order to really understand RVW. I have not done that but that seems about as preposterous as saying one has to have gone hiking in the Finnish wilderness in order to "get" Sibelius. Certainly the nature/landscapes influences can be detected but it ultimately comes down to the music, and RVW's music is consistently rewarding for me across all genres. I could play the 5th symphony and the Tallis Fantasia all day and not get tired of them. And this always sends goosebumps shooting down my skin:






P.S. Vaughan Williams also wrote some real energetic, spitfire young man's music; contradicting the narrative that it's all placid and genial. The 4th symphony is a real zinger!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I've been called an "old soul" so maybe that explains my affinity for RVW.

Vaughan Williams can be a bit...sentimental maybe, but I don't agree with Peter Warlock's assessment of VW's style as being "all just a little too much like a cow looking over a gate".


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> I posted a question about RVW's Symphony No 6 in the 'composer guestbook'. No replies. I also wondered if the reason that thread seemed so sane and polite one, was because it says something about the status of RVW. Tempers don't fray (as they do among LvB and WAM fans and detractors). I wondered if it is an age thing - that RVW tends to appeal to an older audience and so attracts less controversy?
> 
> Whatever. I thought if I posted under a mildly provocative title, someone might take a look. :devil:
> 
> I'm only just starting to listen to his symphonies (other than the soundtrack to _Scott of the Antartic_ - a quintessentially British story and movie if ever there was one) and I'm hearing echoes of Shostakovich in Symphony No 6. Anyone else hear it?


RVW's symphonies are one of the more remarkable musical discoveries I made in my 40s. I sight-read in a performance of The Sea Symphony whilst at Uni, but apart from that, I never really warmed to him. But I defy anyone to listen to Symphony 3 and not be moved by the memories of World War 1 it gives expression to. Symphony No. 4 is just a glorious blast! Apparently, there's a good argument to be made that "That was Adeline!" (i.e., he was married to Adeline, but she was a bed-ridden invalid, and the suggestion is that Symphony No. 4 is his expression of suppressed fury and frustration at that situation). Symphony No. 5 is magical: it was his attempt to put his longed-for opera (Pilgrim's Progress) into some sort of music that would be performed before he died, since no-one was biting at the prospect of a full-blown opera on the subject. Symphony No. 6 is (possibly: he denied it) a depiction of a post-nuclear world, bleak and with little comfort.

My favourite symphony changes by the hour, but I think the nod has to be given to Symphony No. 8: he and his second wife Ursula went to see a performance of Turandot and liked the orchestration, so for his next symphony, he put 'all the 'spiels and 'phones known to the composer' into the score! It's apparently one of the most expensive of his symphonies to perform in consequence!

I don't think RVW is the most exciting composer. It's too easy to dismiss his music as being of the 'cowpat' variety -though anyone who actually knows his music knows the utter daftness of that description. But apart from Symphony No. 4, he tended not to be on the avant garde end of the musical spectrum, so gets dismissed accordingly.

The other thing to say about him is that he was a thoroughly decent, _nice_ man. You can't have fist-fights about a man like that! Above all, his music oozes and breathes profoundly decent humanity.

Personally, I find his operas enthralling and his symphonic cycle breathtaking, when considered over his lifetime. Happily, he's come back into fashion rather more than he was in the 60s and 70s. His 150 anniversary of his birth is coming up in 2022: I would encourage anyone to go out and sample some of his music as the anniversary concerts ramp up, though preferably not overload on the sugar-sweet stuff he gets tarred with!

I'd also recommend anyone become a member of the Ralph Vaughan Williams Society: £25 a year. No benefits, apart from an interesting magazine three times a year, and the warm glow of knowing you're helping to preserve and propagate the man's reputation. (Yup, I am a member; no I get nothing for recommending it to anyone else )


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> What are the thresholds for young, middle and old fogeydom I wonder?


I am not certain. I might technically still be middle-aged, if I make a new record for living long enough.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

FWIW, I liked RVW's music more when I was a teenager/young adult.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I liked it when I started exploring classical in the mid eighties (when I was almost 30), I still like it today. My favourites are symphonies 5 and 7, followed by 3 and 5, On Wenlock Edge, and several others - mostly the more pastoral part of his oeuvre.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> What are the thresholds for young, middle and old fogeydom I wonder?


Young: you listen to some classical music

Middle: you listen to RVW's music

Old: you begin to appreciate RVW's Ninth Symphony

P.S. I'm firmly enscounced in latter category


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

I don’t dislike VW, but I have always found him a little on bland side—there are exceptions, of course.

I have never considered him to be “for old fogeys”, although I can see why he might have that reputation.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I don't know about that. I like RVW, and I'm a young buck.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2020)

Thanks for the replies so far to the question in the title of the thread. 

However, careful readers of my OP will have clocked a question as yet unanswered. Anyone like to have a shot at it? Thanks.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> Thanks for the replies so far to the question in the title of the thread.
> 
> However, careful readers of my OP will have clocked a question as yet unanswered. Anyone like to have a shot at it? Thanks.


On the Shostakovich comparison, I suppose the end of VW 6 has some similarities to the "dead" bits in some Shostakovich. I'm probably thinking of bits of DSCH 8 or 11, but I don't listen that much these days.

In general I'm not sure they are similar characters.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've heard that one has to have seen the British countryside in order to really understand RVW. I have not done that but that seems about as preposterous as saying one has to have gone hiking in the Finnish wilderness in order to "get" Sibelius. Certainly the nature/landscapes influences can be detected but it ultimately comes down to the music, and RVW's music is consistently rewarding for me across all genres. I could play the 5th symphony and the Tallis Fantasia all day and not get tired of them. And this always sends goosebumps shooting down my skin:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A like on this post hardly seems sufficient for what I feel about VW's _Serenade_ (though, curiously, EVEN AMONG VW FANS it has its detractors). The work contains within it VW's (and Shakespeare's) response to those...

"The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted."

VW, late in life, and his wife were at Cornell University to present this work. Wish I'd been there!


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

And the answer to the OP is a firm "No." VW's output is sufficiently varied to rather negate the very nature of the question... (BTW: Anthony Payne also found much of VW's 6th to resemble Shosty).


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think there's little controversy about VW because there's nothing to hate about Vaughan Williams. Only Britten seemed to hate him.


Copland wasn't much of an admirer either. I can't say I'm mad about him but I enjoy a handful of pieces.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I've also graduated to Old Fogeydom, but there have always been RVW pieces I have liked (Tallis, Sym. 5, etc.) When I was a radio announcer many years ago, I once played the Serenade to Music on the Earl of Oxford's birthday, just to stir people up.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2020)

Eclectic Al said:


> On the Shostakovich comparison, I suppose the end of VW 6 has some similarities to the "dead" bits in some Shostakovich. I'm probably thinking of bits of DSCH 8 or 11, but I don't listen that much these days.
> 
> In general I'm not sure they are similar characters.


The "dead" bits? What does that mean?



Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> And the answer to the OP is a firm "No." VW's output is sufficiently varied to rather negate the very nature of the question... (BTW: Anthony Payne also found much of VW's 6th to resemble Shosty).


When you say the answer to the OP - do you mean the title, or the post? I would say there is a difference between hearing 'echoes' (as I put it) and 'resembling' (as you put it). I guess my question is whether RVW was in any way influenced by DSCH, assuming that he listened to it, and if that showed in any of his works. I think it did, in what I've heard so far. It seems to me unlikely that the influence went the other way.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I got to like him n middle age


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> The "dead" bits? What does that mean?


I was referring to sections in the DSCH works which might be interpreted as reflecting on the dead. The "In Memoriam" movement of Symphony 11. Even more closely, you have the Largo of Symphony 8, which starts with a loud section and then goes very much into the same territory as the end of VW6. The quiet section of that Largo is an example of what I meant by the dead bits, although I should perhaps have said "bits that may be reflecting on the dead". Incidentally, I think 8 and 11 are my favourite DSCH symphonies (plus 15 for its sheer cheek), and I very much like VW6. DSCH backs off from ending entirely in the style of the ending of VW6, and instead the final movement is one of those ambiguous creations he specialised in. I think the final movement of his Symphony 8 is one where he very successfully balances the moods, and the final resolution is beautiful and haunting.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2020)

Eclectic Al said:


> I was referring to sections in the DSCH works which might be interpreted as reflecting on the dead. The "In Memoriam" movement of Symphony 11. Even more closely, you have the Largo of Symphony 8, which starts with a loud section and then goes very much into the same territory as the end of VW6. The quiet section of that Largo is an example of what I meant by the dead bits, although I should perhaps have said "bits that may be reflecting on the dead". Incidentally, I think 8 and 11 are my favourite DSCH symphonies (plus 15 for its sheer cheek), and I very much like VW6. DSCH backs off from ending entirely in the style of the ending of VW6, and instead the final movement is one of those ambiguous creations he specialised in. I think the final movement of his Symphony 8 is one where he very successfully balances the moods, and the final resolution is beautiful and haunting.


Ah, right, I get it. Yes, I did have the 11th in mind, perhaps the 10th too - though these were written _after _RVW's 6th. Perhaps I was wrong, and DSCH had been listening to RVW after all!


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> Ah, right, I get it. Yes, I did have the 11th in mind, perhaps the 10th too - though these were written _after _RVW's 6th. Perhaps I was wrong, and DSCH had been listening to RVW after all!


On a different tack, this discussion got me thinking about VW 8 and 9 in the context of DSCH 15. I think there's a similarity of outlook floating around there: interest in unusual sound effects, coupled with an ambiguity of mood in composers near the end of their lives.

Again the VW works are earlier, but I don't know what circulation VW works might have had in the Soviet Union. I can't imagine that Ralph was unaware of Dmitri, but would Dmitri have known much about Ralph?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It did take me time to like Vaughan Williams as a whole although I always liked a few pieces (including the symphonies 4-6 and Job). I think my overall disdain was connected to a similar feeling I once had about one of his teachers, Ravel. Certainly, I came round to both at around the same time. Even now, though, I do feel that VW is a little overrated in Britain.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I don't hear Shostakovich in Vaughan Williams music but I think they share one trait: their music is sometimes misunderstood. Most people come to Vaughan Williams through the Tallis fantasy. which appears a straightforward piece of music with a little tension. or the gentle Greensleeves built on English folk tunes. I think it creates an idea of a folksy, even avuncular, composer of little emotional range.

I think there was far more tension in his music than others especially in the Fifth Symphony. Most people think this a nice walk in the countryside. Not me; I think it is full of muted tension that never reaches the surface. If you listen to Bryden Thomson's recording you may hear what I mean. It should be remembered the Fifth Symphony came between the Fourth -- which the composer said was about conflict -- and the very similar Sixth with a long strain of unresolved tension.

Vaughan Williams drove an ambulance in World War I, had a lot of marriage difficulty in middle age, and had other experiences in life that left him shattered. He didn't always know what to do with the feelings he had left over from these events, his own post traumatic stress if you will, and I think he put it into his music.

Very rarely, as in Job A Masque for Dancing, his emotions boil over and roar. More often, as in the Antarctic symphony, they build and simmer. Most people think he's just a ray of sunshine with a few clouds; I think differently. I think more evidence comes from the relative complexity of his symphonies as he aged. Try figuring out Nos. 8 and 9 some afternoon.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm younger (20s) and make time for RVW, though strangely many of the more beloved works have never done anything for me (Symphony No. 3, for instance). 4, 6, 8 and the concertos as well as many of his songs and suites are on pretty heavy rotation for me. In general, I think he's a bit inconsistent, and on his off days he's far more boring than many composers of similar stature, but the works where he's "on" make up for it.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I liked Vaughan Williams pretty much right away, with pieces such as _The Lark Ascending_ and the Symphony No. 5, but adding Symphonies Nos. 4, 6, and 7 in pretty short order was easy. Nos. 1-3 took longer for me, but I did also like Nos. 8 & 9 immediately on later acquaintance, and I still think No. 9 is a great masterpiece. That all happened when I was a teenager to young adult. It was No. 1 that took me the longest, really not appreciating it until I was in my 40s.

The _Fantasia on Greensleeves_ and _Serenade to Music_ never have done a ton for me, but _Five Variants of 'Dives and Lazarus'_ has.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Guess I listened to lots of choral works so RVW's 1st Symphony was an instant favorite, but the Ninth took the longest to absorb and now I fully believe it's an unsung masterpiece of the whole symphonic genre. And one hell of the Finale!


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I was only vaguely aware of RVW before I lived in England 1986-1988, which was when I was about 30. During that time I listened to BBC Radio 3 a lot and heard some of the symphonies for the first time. From then on I was hooked. Symphony No. 1 (A Sea Symphony) was my favorite piece of music during a difficult tour of duty in Shenyang, China 1999-2001. I played the 1989 CD recording by Bryden Thomson and the LSO (Yvonne Kenny and Brian Rayner Cook, soloists) at least 100 times. Later I collected CDs of all the symphonies and a lot of other RVW, mostly conducted by Vernon Handley. Every few months I work my way through all the symphonies, and I listen to the piano concerto (Shelley) often. I think I would have loved RVW before I really discovered him at age 30, but I was hardly exposed. I do notice that I seem to listen to him more and more as I get older.

As for similarities to Shostakovich, I just spun RVW 6 and then parts of DS 5 and 13 for comparison. I really don’t hear anything noteworthy. In fact, these composers’ sound worlds are for me quite different.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I'm in my 20s (just about!) and before moving houses recently I made sure to listen to his London Symphony while doing a park walk around there. I wouldn't say he's one of my favourite composers (I prefer Elgar, Britten, Purcell, Byrd in the English stakes), but I appreciate his symphonies. Not sure his Ravelian, 'thin' textures really mesh with me though. It feels slightly Pathé newsreel music if you know what I mean...

I had an internet friend my age who was just out of the US marines and had RVW as his forum avatar. I doubt he was typical, but they're definitely around.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm only an apprentice Old Fogey - more or less clocked up the years but haven't quite got the hang of it yet.

RVW has been a favourite of mine since adolescence. I can't satisfactorily analyse what it is that so appeals to me. Peter Warlock's notorious "cow looking over a gate" description was just showing off, frankly, though RVW's music has suffered from the 'Pastoral' label. Yes, he used a lot of English-folk-infused melody and harmony and gave a new life to Tudor polyphony. But his music is quite diverse. Listen to his 1st String Quartet then the 9th Symphony. Try following that gentle, tense 5th Symphony with the 4th, or Flos Campi with the Partita for Double String Orchestra. He experimented with forms, hence an output that seems to include one of everything. "Well, that's a Piano concerto ticked off the list - what's next? Concerto for 2 pianos? Good idea!" I forget now who he was talking to, but he is supposed to have chided one of his contemporaries by saying "The thing is, you only write music that you _know_ you can write"

No, I don't think RVW's music is for Old Fogeys, but it does need patience, and it needs sympathetic performance that doesn't just go for the green fields and frolicking lambkins but bothers to find the under-currents and tension. For the Symphonies, Previn and Handley both managed that, albeit in different ways.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I'm only an apprentice Old Fogey - more or less clocked up the years but haven't quite got the hang of it yet.
> 
> Flos Campi


Thanks for reminding me. I have always loved Flos Campi. It is archetypal VW.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm definitely an old fogey, but I was quite taken with VW when I was a young fogey. I once stepped in at the last minute to replace an ailing tenor soloist in VW's _Hodie,_ and I've also sung his _5 Mystical Songs_ and several other songs. His music still pleases and often moves me unaccountably; a short piece like the prelude to the film "49th Parallel" can break me down in an instant.






And to his snobby critics, I say that cowpats are a healthier form of dung than most of what contemporary culture routinely drops on us.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

MacL I too hear DS in the 6th, especially the 2nd and 3rd mvts and the Epilogue.
I'll put in another shout for RVW's Five Tudor Portraits as I haven't seen it mentioned (aplogogies if I missed it). I've mentioned this elsewhere as I believe this work is a sensational choral/orchestral masterpiece with fabulous moments. I particularly like 'drunken Alice' and the emotional lament for Philip sparrow. Here's the briefest song in the set, 'My Pretty Bess'. This for me is an example of the effortless beauty and simplicity that RVW was gifted with. It's not my favourite recording but it's all I could find online, a symptom of the works undeserved neglect.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Azol said:


> Guess I listened to lots of choral works so RVW's 1st Symphony was an instant favorite, but the Ninth took the longest to absorb and now I fully believe it's an unsung masterpiece of the whole symphonic genre. And one hell of the Finale!


The Ninth is a tough nut to crack, that much is clear! However, I do think it is a masterpiece, as is No.8, which, even if RVW himself joked about its content, has deeper rumblings behind it. It's got more than a bit of the Nielsen 6th or Shostakovich 15th to it.

That's the only Shostakovich I ever hear in VW, though. I don't think there's any in 4 or 6, if anyone it's a bit of the Stravinskys? My favourite of his would be No.2 or No.3, and of the choral works, Dona Nobis Pacem is a wonderful piece.

I'm not that old, so I can't agree that he's for old fogies, at least not in a chronological manner!


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Great British Pastoral Music. Yes, music for old fogies. Nothing wrong with that. When i was younger, i never made the connection. Now i have started to appreciate the music a little more. Anyone first starting off, go for easy pieces like the lark, Thomas Tallis, wasps overture etc..


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## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

In my teens I didn't respond to RVW's music on the radio, but was deeply moved by a live performance of the London symphony. Since then, RVW has been one of my "companion" composers, someone whose music has consistently moved me for almost 50 years now.

I wonder if people who hear Lark Ascending, Greensleeves, etc. assume he's old fogey music because they expect something more radical from a 20th century composer, and never go on to experience his more challenging works: 4th and 6th symphonies, Job, etc. They confuse approachable with superficial. But, as other posters have noted, seemingly gentle works like the 5th symphony have deep waters and bear repeated listening.

As for Shostakovich, I don't hear direct influences one way or the other. But I think there could be parallels. I've always thought there seems to be a well of shared creativity at any given time, perhaps in response to shared historical events (such as world wars). At any rate, there's always stuff "in the air" that composers, writers and artists either reject, or pull down and make their own. So you can detect similarities in composers without their having heard a note of each other's music. Just a theory.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

There are some pieces by RVW that I have always liked (Tallis, etc.). I did not pursue his symphonies until much later, but those I heard I generally liked. (I bought a set several years ago, and I think I have listened to all of them, although I have only a general impression, and could not say much in detail about them. I don't think that any of them captured my imagination to the point where I just had to replay it again once it was done, or felt compelled to put them on again, although I certainly expect to do so at some point.) It may be that there are some pieces, or some parts of longer works that I do not like, but in response to the question "do you like RVW," the answer "yes" is quite a reasonable one. 

I do not care for Shostakovich's symphonies, and here are really only a few pieces by him that I do like (like his Gadfly music). I certainly see (hear) no particularly strong similarities between the two composers. (Perhaps one can be established, but that is my impression, having heard both.)


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2020)

Fredrikalansson said:


> I've always thought there seems to be a well of shared creativity at any given time, perhaps in response to shared historical events (such as world wars). At any rate, there's always stuff "in the air" that composers, writers and artists either reject, or pull down and make their own. So you can detect similarities in composers without their having heard a note of each other's music.


it's interesting to note that, of the symphonies of the period that I know, each of the composers has sought NOT to write mournfully, or militarily, or triumphally about the end of WW2. That hasn't stopped listeners reading stuff into their compositions, but DSCH disappointed the Soviet regime with his 9th, Prokofiev's 5th and 6th offer a mix of impressions and RVW's 6th prompted himself to say, 'Can't a man just write a piece of music.' (or words to that effect).


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2020)

Mission accomplished!



> I thought if I posted under a mildly provocative title, someone might take a look.


Mercifully, no-one seems to have taken my OP the wrong way. Thanks for the replies, quite a number of which do suggest that, whilst there are exceptions, RVW's music does seem to appeal to an audience that might be more mature in outlook, willing to allow music to grow on one, not to look for the quick return.


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