# Berg's Wozzeck



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I recently purchased the Deutsche Grammophon "Alban Berg Collection" box set, which I am extremely excited to immerse myself in. As much as I love Berg, I have heard very little of his operatic music: just the suites from Lulu and Wozzeck. Now that I have this box, I have the Boulez recording of Lulu (the world premiere recording, I believe, of the completed version with a third act) and the Claudio Abbado recording of Wozzeck with the Vienna State Opera. Abbado is a great conductor of Berg and other Second Viennese composers, and who better to play Berg than Vienna. 

So how about it, are you a fan of Wozzeck? How about Lulu? Do you consider these difficult works? What are some of the best recordings of these major works? Do you consider Wozzeck to be a grating, depressing, and unlistenable piece of Modernist garbage, or is it a masterpiece, a vindication of a dark and horrific epoch of European history, and one of the major works of our time? Somewhere in between? Neither one nor the other?

Moreover, can anyone link me to a side-by-side German/English libretto? Damn box set didn't come with a libretto... for either opera... just synopses...


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can't offer a libretto in German and English side by side but go to the wiki article on _Lulu_ and look near the bottom of the page under _Discography and recordings_, there you will see an entry for the libretto in English available in PDF form. The libretto is near the bottom of the article starting on page 116 after copious notes and detailed synopsis in four languages. And below that under _Other_ is a link for the libretto in German, with Spanish(!) alongside.

I've had no luck sourcing the _Wozzeck_ libretto yet but I'm sure it's lurking somewhere.


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> So how about it, are you a fan of Wozzeck? How about Lulu?


i love the latter more than the former, and its twice as longer runtime to boot.



flamencosketches said:


> a vindication of a dark and horrific epoch of European history


hardly vindication.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Damn! Who would have thought the libretti would be so hard to find. Maybe I will try and buy one off Amazon, I've seen they sell just the libretti for certain operas.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I love Wozzeck. I think it's extremely difficult to tell a story with complex, psychologically interesting characters in an hour and a half without an interval and not have people fidgeting in the last twenty minutes. I've seen this format fail a couple of times, although Strauss managed something similar in Elektra and Salome. Berg nails it here.

It's not an opera that I would want to listen to (it's what I refer to as a 'DVD opera'), I do have one on CD, though:









I wouldn't recommend this for anybody other than Gobbi fans (the opera _really_ doesn't work in Italian! However, Gobbi is a mesmerising Wozzeck as you would expect.

N.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I love both works, but prefer Wozzeck to Lulu - IMHO, Wozzeck has somehow more "relatable" characters, and its music is easier to get to grips with. Indeed, in the hands of Karl Böhm and his cast - a classic recording I'd recommend - Wozzeck almost comes across as Richard Strauss; his recording of the incomplete Lulu doesn't quite manage the same trick, which is perhaps due to its rather more uncompromising nature. I still consider both to be masterpieces, however, and Wozzeck is absolutely one of my favourite operas ever.

Edit: I should add that I mean Böhm's 1960s studio recording on Deutsche Grammophon with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau in the title role. There is a live recording by Böhm with Sir Geraint Evans as Wozzeck which, fine though it is, doesn't beat his DG set.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Wow, I didn't know Böhm had recorded these operas. With an all-star cast too. 

I'm a big fan of Strauss' Elektra and to a lesser extent Salome. Are these the closest precedents to Wozzeck? I understand it was totally revolutionary and not quite like any of its predecessors. I love also Bluebeard's Castle which I sometimes see mentioned alongside Wozzeck.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> I'm a big fan of Strauss' Elektra and to a lesser extent Salome. Are these the closest precedents to Wozzeck?


Pretty much, in my view.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I love both works, but prefer Wozzeck to Lulu - IMHO, Wozzeck has somehow more "relatable" characters, and its music is easier to get to grips with. Indeed, in the hands of Karl Böhm and his cast - a classic recording I'd recommend - Wozzeck almost comes across as Richard Strauss; his recording of the incomplete Lulu doesn't quite manage the same trick, which is perhaps due to its rather more uncompromising nature. I still consider both to be masterpieces, however, and Wozzeck is absolutely one of my favourite operas ever.
> 
> Edit: I should add that I mean Böhm's 1960s studio recording on Deutsche Grammophon with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau in the title role. There is a live recording by Böhm with Sir Geraint Evans as Wozzeck which, fine though it is, doesn't beat his DG set.


I 100% agree with this (I must listen to that Bohm Wozzeck again). I also like Lulu, but prefer Wozzeck and find that Lulu is without doubt even more of a DVD opera.

N.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

By the way, pity Manfred Gurlitt, whose independently composed version of Wozzeck premiered a few months after Berg's. Talk about rotten timing!






A perfectly good work, which might have stayed in the repertoire had it not been eclipsed by Berg's superior take on the same libretto.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This is my DVD choice of the opera:









N.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The Conte said:


> Lulu is without doubt even more of a DVD opera.


Agreed. Oddly enough, Christine Schäfer's memorable Lulu from Glyndebourne is probably my most-watched opera DVD.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I prefer seeing it live, even a DVD doesn't do it for me, I have both on CD, the Lulu conducted by Böhm as mentioned and Wozzeck conducted by Mitropoulos sung by Farrel / Harrel.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

About 15 years ago some opera friends of mine at another opera website were encouraging me to try Wozzeck to the point that 2 of them sent me cd's to listen to. I tried really hard and hated it. 
Being determined, I did a second run and still ... nothing.
That wasn't going to stop me because I was annoyed with myself that I just couldn't "get it". So I tried a third time with zero results and gave up the ghost.

Several years later the Met offered a production and being that we had a small apartment a few blocks from the Met several friends encouraged us to go with them and afterwards we'd have a small cocktail party at the apartment, so we acquiesced and bought 2 tickets. 
Eureka! A breakthrough!
How different it became for me once the visual was in front of me. 

Now I can't wait to see the HD which is coming up in January.
As much as I loved the music I found out that it is very necessary (in my case) to see expressions and body actions to completely put an opera together for me.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

nina foresti said:


> Several years later the Met offered a production and being that we had a small apartment a few blocks from the Met several friends encouraged us to go with them and afterwards we'd have a small cocktail party at the apartment, so we acquiesced and bought 2 tickets.
> Eureka! A breakthrough!


By far the two most successful "newbie introductions" to opera I've experienced were when I took some rookie friends to see _Wozzeck_ and Tippett's _The Knot Garden_, neither of which (you'd think) would be suitable to introduce a person to opera. Without exception, however, my friends were totally absorbed by what they saw and heard, and some enjoyed themselves so much that they became life-long opera buffs.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Wow, I didn't know Böhm had recorded these operas. With an all-star cast too.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Strauss' Elektra and to a lesser extent Salome. Are these the closest precedents to Wozzeck? I understand it was totally revolutionary and not quite like any of its predecessors. I love also Bluebeard's Castle which I sometimes see mentioned alongside Wozzeck.


Others that might be worth mentioning include:

Schoenberg - Erwartung
Schreker - Der ferne Klang, Die Gezeichneten
Zemlinsky - Eine florentinische Tragödie, Der Zwerg

Of course Wozzeck took a long time to compose; Die Gezeichneten the two Zemlinsky operas can be considered contemporary (though they all premiered before Wozzeck).


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

mountmccabe said:


> Others that might be worth mentioning include:
> 
> Schoenberg - Erwartung
> Schreker - Der ferne Klang, Die Gezeichneten
> ...


Good recommendations. Of them all, Schoenberg's _Erwartung_ is - unsurprisingly - closest to Berg's style, whilst Schreker is closer to Wagner and Zemlinsky to Strauss. These are very fine works which, together, form a fascinating bridge between Wagner, Strauss and Alban Berg.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Fascinating. I used to have a disc of Franz Schreker's orchestral works, well before I ever really got into classical music, and it was quite good. Wonder whatever happened to that one. Anyway, I have not heard his operas. But as my fascination with the early 20th century continues, I am sure I will get around to them eventually. 

I have been enjoying dipping my toes into Wozzeck and a bit of Lulu (I have Abbado and Boulez respectively) but cannot fully immerse myself in either without the libretto. A huge oversight on behalf of DG not to include one in this box... I think my preference for Berg's older contemporary Webern and their teacher Schoenberg largely comes down to my lack of understanding for opera as a whole. These are clearly great, massive works, but I feel something is missing, probably because I just don't know what is going on in the scenes. I may need to see them on DVD or live (if possible–unlikely).


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> Fascinating. I used to have a disc of Franz Schreker's orchestral works, well before I ever really got into classical music, and it was quite good. Wonder whatever happened to that one. Anyway, I have not heard his operas. But as my fascination with the early 20th century continues, I am sure I will get around to them eventually.
> 
> I have been enjoying dipping my toes into Wozzeck and a bit of Lulu (I have Abbado and Boulez respectively) but cannot fully immerse myself in either without the libretto. A huge oversight on behalf of DG not to include one in this box... I think my preference for Berg's older contemporary Webern and their teacher Schoenberg largely comes down to my lack of understanding for opera as a whole. These are clearly great, massive works, but I feel something is missing, probably because I just don't know what is going on in the scenes. I may need to see them on DVD or live (if possible-unlikely).


Were you not able to access the _Wozzeck_ libretto from the info in my earlier post?


----------



## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Yeah, having access to the libretto to accompany a audio recording is critical to fully understanding and enjoying any opera in my experience, and it is truly frustrating how many boxed sets and opera recordings are sold these days that do not include them. Usually it is possible to find a side by side libretto and translations somewhere online, but I couldn't find one in this case. I too was going to suggest what elgars ghost proposed, to use a German libretto and a separate English translation, as both can be accessed online. Or if you don't mind spending a few extra dollars, a libretto with English translation can be purchased cheaply enough.

The Abbado recording in your boxset is also available with English subtitles on Youtube:


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

elgars ghost said:


> Were you not able to access the _Wozzeck_ libretto from the info in my earlier post?


I believe I missed it. Not in this thread, is it? I see your post about the Lulu libretto.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

That Abbado recording of Wozzeck in the DGG box is awful. Too recessed, too much stage noise. This one's much better:









Here's the English translation of the libretto. Actually quite OK to follow the German with just this.....

https://www.opera-arias.com/berg/wozzeck/libretto/english/


----------



## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> That Abbado recording of Wozzeck in the DGG box is awful. Too recessed, too much stage noise.


I have to disagree there. The Abbado is a live recording, so of course there are unavoidable background noises and the singers do sound a bit recessed compared to the orchestra, but if one doesn't have a problem with live opera recordings in general the sound isn't horrible by any means. I have three recordings of the opera: the Abbado, the Dohnanyi and the Böhm studio recording referenced earlier in the thread. I enjoy all three immensely, all three conductors approach the score from a different angle, but if I had to choose a favorite it would probably be the Abbado for the overall excellence of the cast and the dramatic tension of the interpretation.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> I believe I missed it. Not in this thread, is it? I see your post about the Lulu libretto.


My mistake - wrong opera!


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

WildThing said:


> I have to disagree there. The Abbado is a live recording, so of course there are unavoidable background noises and the singers do sound a bit recessed compared to the orchestra, but if one doesn't have a problem with live opera recordings in general the sound isn't horrible by any means. I have three recordings of the opera: the Abbado, the Dohnanyi and the Böhm studio recording referenced earlier in the thread. I enjoy all three immensely, all three conductors approach the score from a different angle, but if I had to choose a favorite it would probably be the Abbado for the overall excellence of the cast and the dramatic tension of the interpretation.


You have exactly the same three recordings as I have, admittedly Bohm only on vinyl here.

I don't have an issue with live recordings, but if you say compare Wozzeck with Abbado's excellent and finely balanced Khovanshchina on the same label, the recording problems are there to hear. He does have a fine cast, but I really do think he was let down by the engineers there.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Flamenco, composers such as Schreker, and Ernst Krenek are well worth exploring. Schreker was a hugely popular opera composer before his career was destroyed by the Nazis. Der Schatzgraber on the Challenge label is a favorite of mine. 

I've tried to get into Wozzeck but maybe I need to hear it live not too close to the stage? I have recordings by Boulez, and Kegel. I just don't like the sound of the dialogue. It sounds like they're shouting in my face.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> That Abbado recording of Wozzeck in the DGG box is awful. Too recessed, too much stage noise. This one's much better:
> 
> View attachment 118687
> 
> ...


Many thanks! I'll be the judge of that; I do like what I've heard of Abbado's but I haven't heard it in full, nor any others.


----------



## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Well, all I know is that I'm going to experience Wozzeck firsthand at the Met soon. Crazy season coming up, and Wozzeck fits right in. Thanks for suggestions on appreciating it. I guess I have six months to study up and see if I can crack this puzzle. I expect to like.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

marceliotstein said:


> Well, all I know is that I'm going to experience Wozzeck firsthand at the Met soon. Crazy season coming up, and Wozzeck fits right in. Thanks for suggestions on appreciating it. I guess I have six months to study up and see if I can crack this puzzle. I expect to like.


Jealous. As I live far outside of NY, London, Vienna etc. I expect it will probably be another couple decades before they ever put on Wozzeck anywhere near me. Enjoy!

I have been listening to the recording included on the DG box set by Abbado and Vienna. It is indeed pretty rough audio by DG's standards, even for a live recording. Going to try and get through it again.

As for the music itself... it's extremely intense, to say the least. A real emotional roller coaster. I will report back when I actually finish it.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> Here's the English translation of the libretto. Actually quite OK to follow the German with just this.....
> 
> https://www.opera-arias.com/berg/wozzeck/libretto/english/


Is it just me, or is this a little rough in places? Like it was translated by someone who doesn't actually speak English. Still fine for the most part, but at times I am left to wonder.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I see people not happy with Berg recordings and I'm one of them too... the idea that Berg is more romantic, more emotional, perhaps to popularize Berg, get him into the repertory, played too much like Strauss, hasn't had good results IMO... Abbado Karajan Boulez all dissatisfy me in some way... one has to keep looking, this is one reason I listen to Schoenberg more... 

As others suggest it is well worth exploring beyond the SBW triumvirate of the 2nd Vienna, and other labels like Capriccio, I especially like Zemlinksy's Kreiderkreis (Chalk Circle) for the chamber instrumentation and speech patterns... no screaming...


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

^I have been meaning to look into Zemlinsky. I can't seem to find much info on this Kreiderkreis outside of German Amazon. Is it an opera of some sort? Not being a huge opera guy myself, do you have any other works of his to recommend?

So are there any extant Berg recordings that you like? Personally, I find much of his music quite romantic, almost as much a descendent of Mahler as of Schoenberg, and that goes beyond the performances. Though it is true that he was obsessed with form, structure, and numbers much more than your typical late Romantic composer would have been. I haven't heard Karajan's Berg, but Abbado and Boulez are both pretty successful IMO. My only complaint for Abbado's Wozzeck is that the sound is a bit odd. As another poster mentioned, a lot of stage noise, and the vocals are somewhat recessed.

In any case, it would be interesting to hear Berg's music performed similarly to Boulez's early approach to Webern (ie. very raw, unsentimental, and decidedly unromantic, borderline clinical) exemplified on his Sony Webern edition. I haven't heard terribly much of Boulez in Berg, but it sounds like you think he was not quite successful, then?

Finally, I generally prefer Schoenberg to Berg these days. But both were giants in music in their time. I think that is undeniable. For Berg, it is amazing that he composed so few works, yet his music is still widely performed, enjoyed and studied to this day, 80+ years after his death.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

btw, taking my words back the Berg in this one is pretty good, with Jessye Norman in her prime... Lulu Suite and Der Wein... not sure how it's reissued now... for me these were Boulez best years, along with his Erato phase...


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

the Zemilinsky, it's not for all tastes..


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Zemlinsky's symphonies 1-2 are good stock but the Lyric Symphony is very under-rated IMO... ignored for being too Das Lied-ish, so what they both knew Alma ha, and it doesn't really SOUND like Mahler... Zemlinsky got a bit MORE exotic... don't care much for the Mermaid tho...

James Conlon did a Zemlinsky series for EMI with some excellent soloists that needs to be reissued...


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Almost forgot, get this, it's the best deal on Arte Nova maybe...


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have one Zemlinsky opera, The Dwarf. I wasn't feeling it the last time I listened but I'll have to revisit. I have James Conlon's orchestral recordings on EMI. The symphony disc is okay, but the 3 disc set including the Lyric Symphony and other works is a favorite. For Berg I like the EMI 2 CD set featuring various conductors including Metzmacher, Rattle, etc. And includes the Lyric Suite by the Alban Berg Quartet, the piano sonata, and the Seven Early Songs in addition to the orchestral pieces.

Speaking of the Boulez Erato recordings, the 14 CD box is highly recommended. One of my favorite sets. Includes some of his own music, and many other composers.

I mentioned Krenek, and his string quartets on the Capriccio label are excellent, as is a chamber orchestra disc on the Toccata label. One of these days I'll pick up one of his operas. I also have his Symphonies on CPO, but those don't interest me as much.

Another Viennese composer of note is Egon Wellesz. I've collected a good deal of his music including the symphony set on CPO, the 3 disc piano set on Capriccio, and a string quartet disc. I seem to listen to the piano set the most. The Symphonies are decent but didn't really knock me out. But honestly I haven't spent all that much time with them.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I've heard good things about the Wellesz quartets, also Weigl. This one is on my wish list. The Artis has some good ones on Nimbus.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Von Otter's recordings of Mahler, Zemilinsky, Berg, and Korngold are all on pretty high ground, she is a natch for this stuff...


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have that one, as well as their Webern string disc, and one of the Zemlinsky quartets discs. I just found a tote full of CDs upstairs with all this stuff and two other operas by Schreker, and Zemlinsky. And the Ernst Toch Symphonie set to boot!

The Schoenberg String Quartet are really good at all these quartet works as well. Maybe a bit warmer sound than the Artis Quartett. And the Schoenberg's Szymanowski / Janacek quartets disc is superb! One of the best string quartet CDs I own.

The Hartmann / Eisler quartets CD on Nimbus is another good one.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

We should probably start a thread for all these interesting post-WWI Vienna composers. About 4 years ago I was working this sub-genre, even reading some Stefan Zweig along the way, though I still haven't seen Grand Budapest Hotel... which led me to like Strauss a lot more than I had... Eisler is fascinating, there is a really wacky Ensemble Modern recording and this box has a bunch of the Berlin Classics recordings.










I also waiting for the inevitable Messiaen thread to appear...


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I bought the Eisler set. I was thinking of picking up the Paul Dessau box as well, but haven't yet.

Presto is having a Nimbus sale.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7964416--wellesz-string-quartets


----------



## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

If your looking for a DVD this one is absolutely gut wrenching (as one of the reviewers said). I was just drained at the end of this. Outstanding.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

philoctetes said:


> Zemlinsky's symphonies 1-2 are good stock but the Lyric Symphony is very under-rated IMO... ignored for being too Das Lied-ish, so what they both knew Alma ha, and it doesn't really SOUND like Mahler... Zemlinsky got a bit MORE exotic... don't care much for the Mermaid tho...
> 
> James Conlon did a Zemlinsky series for EMI with some excellent soloists that needs to be reissued...


This is the one I bought. These 3 disc editions seemed to come and go rather quickly.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I finally finished it. So that was a pretty phenomenal opera. It reminded me of a David Lynch movie, and I wonder if he has ever been a fan of Berg's. I don't know if I'll revisit it any time soon, though, just because of how dark and heavy it was. Talk about a downer ending too (the music is absolutely beautiful in the final scene... definitely captures the feeling of being a child and the shock of losing a parent). 

As with every other opera I've ever seen, the storyline seemed somewhat flimsy and a little superfluous. But musically, what a huge achievement.

Just for the record, it was the Abbado/Vienna recording. In the end I found it incredible, despite some stage noise (don't think it detracted much from the music, and kind of added to the sense of drama at times) and somewhat recessed vocals. Highly recommend to any fan of passionate music and anyone fascinated with the darker side of human life.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Watched this production for free yesterday in the Bavarian State Opera website. There was a performance they were streaming and then I could save some money from the Met. But man the subtitles were tiny.

I had watched _FROSH_ some weeks ago and I couldn't be more dissapointed with the opera myself. But this one, even with a less melodic style than Strauss had, got me sat on the sofa. I was though looking at my phone, but there was something strangely pleasing watching _Wozzeck_. Maybe it was the perspective of a whole performance of 1h40m versus three acts in almost 4h. But I didn't feel any headache and I was way more attached to the story the characters told. Fantastic Gerhaher.

Going to challenge the opera recordings soon after Puccini's _La Bohème._ It seeps appropiate (I'm not warming to it at all, would rather listen to Act I and then leave).


----------



## nospoonboy (Jan 27, 2016)

Thank you for suggesting the Schreker. I had heard of his work before, but had not yet listened to his operas. What wonderful work! I was especially taken with the releases on Capriccio and Orfeo conducted by Gerd Albrecht. 

BTW, I very much love Berg and prefer Lulu to Wozzeck. Yet, I also admit that these are "DVD operas" for me...I did not begin to get them until I watched them. The Lulu with Barbara Hannigan is my personal favorite.


----------

