# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (By Request): Hunter vs Gray



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Rita Hunter, UK, 1933-2001






Linda Esther Gray, UK, 1948






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've never liked the sound of Rita Hunter's voice. The tone is shallow and the strong pulsations of the vibrato sometimes distracting. I don't hear much expression here, though she builds up some superficial excitement toward the climax. She has to take a breath before the final note, which ought therefore to be wonderful but isn't. In sum: meh.

Gray has the advantage of Goodall's majestic conducting. She has a smoother, warmer tone and makes more of the music, and her use of portamento, so rare nowadays, is one of the attractive qualities of her Isolde as heard on the complete recording from which this is taken. My only real reservation about her is the odd impurity of her vowels; nearly all of them seem infused with an "eu" sound (pronounced as in French), which makes her German peculiar and her diction in general less clear than it ought to be. Despite that, her performance gets to the Romantic heart of the music as Hunter's does not.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I never heard of Gray and frankly their voices sounded so much alike that I decided to vote for the orchestra that was superb instead-which maybe propelled Gray's singing to a more feverish pitch.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I much preferred the Hunter performance - liked her voice, her vulnerability, and the tension she offers. For me, Gray's voice was too creamy and generic.


----------



## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Gray for me, at least as recorded. The voice seemed more rounded. But again the recording might have entered into it


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

A Peek Inside Linda Esther Gray's Memoir

Note: the book is out of print but may be available through a library exchange.

"And then there's Linda Ester Gray. Who, you might ask, is Linda Esther Gray? She's a Scotswoman, born in 1948. Her career as a soprano began while she was still student in the early 1970s, and ended ingloriously with a public vocal breakdown at a concert in Wigmore Hall in London, in 1985.

Even by today's standards, it was a short career of barely ten years. Along the way, she was conductor Reginald Goodall's Isolde of choice in performances and recordings of Tristan und Isolde throughout the UK. She sang Kundry in Parsifal, also with Goodall, and Aida, Tosca and Brunnhilde in Die Walkure with the English National Opera.

She sang in Dallas and Los Angeles, in France, Mexico and Holland. Goodall coached her enthusiastically for a return to Isolde in London in 1983. He then fired her behind her back. He told the management of the Royal Opera that Linda was finished and they believed him. Future dates with the Met and La Scala were also canceled. The story of this "betrayal" is written clearly in all its horror.

As far as I know she has not sung a note in public in almost twenty five years. Linda's recent memoir is called A Life Behind Curtains: A Singer's Silent Sounds. This is no prima donna memoir. There's a happy marriage, motherhood, family life and the great figure of British soprano Dame Eva Turner hovering over the pages.

There's a sexy, smart and emotional heroine devoted to music and to singing. And there's that horrible vocal breakdown. Linda became seriously ill and underwent extensive abdominal surgery in the early 1980s. That might have caused the problem. She sang the big Wagner roles thrillingly when she was barely in her thirties - that couldn't have helped. Linda went from a young, strong confident singer to a sorrowful wreck who couldn't even phonate over two years time. Even her speaking voice was diminished. She never pinpoints the exact reason why this happened to her.

he does write in harrowing detail of her despair, her feverish attempts to recover her voice, (or at least to understand what has happened) her acceptance and her ability to resume a productive and happy life. Linda Esther Gray lived through a harrowing journey and has all the writing chops to share it with readers, with no trace of self pity. The lesson learned is that one really can reinvent oneself completely, and go on."


----------



## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Sunburst Finish said:


> A Peek Inside Linda Esther Gray's Memoir
> 
> Note: the book is out of print but may be available through a library exchange.
> 
> ...


What does one expect from a man like Goodall who supported the fascists in England during WW2 when my father was fighting them in Europe?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Handelian said:


> What does one expect from a man like Goodall who supported the fascists in England during WW2 when my father was fighting them in Europe?


Here we go again... Godwin's Law holds.

Is there some logical connection between being a fascist in England during WWII and treating a singer unfairly?


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Gray wins it for me. Hunter's voice has never worked for me though. In this performance she lacks the impact and expression that this work requires. 

I recall vividly as a teenager being called away from homework because Hunter was about to sing on Television and it was going to be amazing - this would have been late 1980s, possibly even 1990. I'll generously describe the performance she gave as 'past it', OK, it was dreadful.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I prefer Hunter's voice of the two as there is more metal in her tone, than Gray's soft grained sound. However, I much prefer Gray's more heroic delivery of the piece (although there are places I wish she hadn't left gaps). I prefer Hunter's voice, but I prefer Gray's singing and so she wins.

I find the conducting of both rather soporific.

N.


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Ohh, that vibrato doesn't work at all and in the big climax voice starts to sound really generic and hints of roughness (or was it the recording? Cannot tell for sure, but the final "Lust" has the traces of this so I guess it's the voice). I'll second Woodduck's opinion here: meh.

Gray has really to work her way through, Goodall is very slow here (but not nearly as exciting as Bernstein)!
(As an aside, good heavens Maximianno Cobra haven't got to perform this, don't you think? )
Interesting experience (I haven't heard this one before), but not fully enjoyable. Better voice tone but audibly struggling to keep up with the tempo (rather, to keep down with it) and not so great an articulation.

Overall, another battle of imperfections but I guess Gray works better for me.


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

---------Deleted Post!


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Gray is marred by a bad recording. She sounds a lot like Alessandra Marc here, which is in her favor in my opinion.
I love Hunter's version. When she was young it was such a young soprano sound on steroids. It is Hunter for the win for me. I love her in the Ring... it is one of my favorites.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

It's Gray for me. Can't say I hear any problems with the sound which was a Decca Digital studio release. Goodalll's speeds are very slow to be sure but the performance captures that sense of rapture that I look for and Gray's voice is very beautiful.
She slightly reminds me of Margaret Price, except that we know Gray also sang the role on stage. One of my favourite Isoldes.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Goodall famously, or notoriously, favors slow tempos in Wagner, but in this case I find his tempo ideal. The music of the "Liebestod" is basically a recapitulation of the last part of the love duet from Act 2, but the dramatic situation and Isolde's state of mind have changed radically. Isolde is beyond passion and yearning here; she is at last experiencing, in her own mind, the reality of what she and Tristan desperately desired. There is no reason to hurry or press toward the music's climax, and Goodall lets it unfold patiently. This gives Gray room to make the phrases breathe, and she proves quite capable of that. I find this one of the loveliest performances of the piece I've heard, one that's absolutely true to its essential meaning.


----------



## Potiphera (Mar 24, 2011)

Apologies, I posted in the wrong thread. Regarding Russian Soprano , Anna Netrebko, Now in the politics thread.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> I am so sorry that you never warmed to my Mother's voice. However, we will have to agree to disagree on her tone being shallow and her lack of expression. As for taking a breath before the final note? How would you play this situation given that sometimes, the conductor tends to get slower. Would you risk running out of breath? Or take another to prevent that. As a singer myself, I know which one I would chose


I loved you mother's voice so much on the Goodall Ring and in Euryanthe! I also think she was the only soprano who was also a great stand up comic that I know of! There used to be a wonderful glorious Suicidio with your mother in front of a piano with the most glorious chest register on the low notes but the video has vanished from Youtube though I look for it at least twice a year. I feel privileged to tell Rita's daughter how much I loved her singing. I wish I had been here in Seattle when she sang her Norma here.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

brunny2022 said:


> I am so sorry that you never warmed to my Mother's voice. However, we will have to agree to disagree on her tone being shallow and her lack of expression. As for taking a breath before the final note? How would you play this situation given that sometimes, the conductor tends to get slower. Would you risk running out of breath? Or take another to prevent that. As a singer myself, I know which one I would chose


Of course it's a long and demanding role, and not everyone can be as fresh at the end of it as Birgit Nilsson, who said she could sing the whole thing over again from the beginning (and having heard her in the house, I can believe it). "Hochste Lust"? Well it's only three notes, but better to breathe in the middle of it than poop out before the end.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

brunny2022 said:


> Mum said the same thing, about singing it again....but not even Nilsson would sing it twice in a row


But if she had, I would have stayed to hear it! Of course my backside was younger and tougher then.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Unfortunately, I don't see Rita Hunter's video and can't find it on YouTube. But I listened to her Norma with my baby, we enjoyed it. 
Miss Gray is wonderful, but seems tired and a little unstable to the end of the opera. Nevertheless, it's a powerful performance, I felt the mood needed and, perhaps, saw an abyss, which Woodduck sometimes writes about.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> Lordy.....you can't find it? Sometimes technology and the interwebs makes me nuts!


Same here. This is an old thread and I see I did comment on it at the time, so the link to the youtube clip must have been deleted since then.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> Since finding this forum (particularly, this thread), I have had a lot of time to think about some of the things that have been said about both my Mother, Rita Hunter and Linda Esther Gray. I know what Mum would say to me right now, but unless she is going to appear and give me a talking to, I guess, like everyone else here, I am allowed to say what I need to say.
> 
> Firstly (and even though we are a culture of "picking a favorite"), I think it is in poor taste to make a poll based on two singers that sang the same sort of repertoire but had different vocal techniques. A poll of this nature is actually quite embarrassing and highly disrespectful and regardless of the comments, even my Mother would be embarrassed that such a poll exists against a singer and a woman that she respected highly.
> 
> ...


I sort of see where you're coming from but this is something people here seem to enjoy. Nobody is trying to diminish your mothers achievements but discussing the different artistic merits of different performers is not something I'd see as problematic and that's what these threads are for more than 'picking favourites'. I'm sure your mother had her preferences too.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

brunny2022 said:


> ...
> 
> I respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but threads such as this, nearly always end up being hurtful and generally unhelpful, in the grand scheme of things, and really only serves those that love a good "team picking exercise".
> 
> ...


As the person who requested this thread, I think that you took the wrong message from it. I am an occasional contributor to these types of threads (also one who has seen your mother on stage - a Seattle Ring), and I am sometimes a bit frustrated by the focus on singers of the 60s and earlier, so I felt it worthwhile to point bring others into focus. Given the fascination with the comparative threads, I felt that just saying 'hear, listen to this', probably wouldn't have gotten very far, but give a couple in this format, more would be attracted to listen. This, incidentally that seems to be a very common feature of classical music sites.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> Noted…that said, and regardless of the intent behind making this thread…Aerobats comments were uncalled for. I wish Aerobat would comment on “the tv show” that was viewed and what Mum sang. Context is everything and I would like to be given the opportunity to afford Aerobat with that.
> 
> In relation to the aforementioned comments from Aerobat…the moral of this tale is “careful what you say because you don’t know who might read it one day”


Aerobat is not a regular poster here. I can't remember the last time I read a post of his. Forums like this are not places to hang out if you are touchy about certain singers. I love Joan Sutherland but hardly ever post anything of her's beyond the early 60's as this crowd becomes so critical of her later singing and I get territorial about it and upset.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> Noted…that said, and regardless of the intent behind making this thread…Aerobats comments were uncalled for. I wish Aerobat would comment on “the tv show” that was viewed and what Mum sang. Context is everything and I would like to be given the opportunity to afford Aerobat with that.
> 
> In relation to the aforementioned comments from Aerobat…the moral of this tale is “careful what you say because you don’t know who might read it one day”


Everyone has off days, and everyone has different opinions. I adore Callas but when people describe her late performances as awful I'm not going to argue. If he didn't enjoy your mum's performance he has a right to say so, plenty of others love her and have been complimentary. I'm sure if your mother were here today she'd have something to say about the modern state of operatic singing, many, many famous singers of the past have been dismissive of certain contemporaries, sometimes rightly so and other times not. It happens frequently in the artistic world. I'm sure Aerobat didn't mean to offend you, but I wouldn't condemn him for sharing his honest opinion. I'm sure others would agree with him and then again some might not. If these threads upset you then I would suggest simply avoiding them and treasuring your mothers memory as you would like to remember her rather than through the critical lense of others. She was undoubtedly a worthy artist and many have a great deal of respect for her.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This is what Gramophone Magazine wrote about your mother's recording -

"This issue completes the very welcome reissue of the Goodall/EMI _Ring_ on CD. I write ''Goodall'', but this particular set might better be termed the Hunter _Twilight of the Gods_. When I last month reviewed the new Haitink version of this opera, I referred to several Brunnhildes, but not—heinously—to Rita Hunter, whose assumption of the role, especially in this culminating work of the cycle, has been one of the glories of Wagnerian singing on disc in the past 20 years. I was astonished anew at how she combines, under Goodall's patient nurturing, the needs of tone, line and words into one seamless and rewarding whole."

"She is a bright-voiced, ringing Brunnhilde, more in the Nilsson than in the Flagstad or Varnay mould. She can cut through the thickest of textures with her gleaming, heroic tone, yet like Nilsson, she is also capable of controlled _piano_ singing as she shows in her long, musing, distraught solo towards the end of Act 2, and uses vibrato as a means of increasing emotion not as an involuntary necessity. The depth of feeling conveyed through the text informs the whole, wonderful assumption, brought to its thrilling climax in the Immolation. There we hear the tragic heroine succeeding on the complacent lover of Act 1 and the strong-willed revenger of Act 2."

"The recording remains a model of recording in the theatre."

https://webcache.googleusercontent....&gl=us[/URL]"]Wagner The Twilight of the Gods
This... This is your mother's legacy... not some offhand comment written by a relatively unknown member that few, if any, can even remember and whose name elicits no other response than "Who?" that was made in an obscure thread about a long-forgotten contest that everyone lost interest in less than 30 seconds after it ended in a niche forum made up exclusively of members, many, if not most, of whom suffer from every conceivable variety of personality disorder ever diagnosed and who couldn't care less about what anyone other than themselves has to say about anything and who can't agree about anything other than the fact that they can't, won't, and never will agree upon anything whatsoever other than the fact that no one besides themselves actually knows what they're talking about.

Perspective... It's all about keeping things in perspective...


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> This is what Gramophone Magazine wrote about your mother's recording -
> 
> "This issue completes the very welcome reissue of the Goodall/EMI _Ring_ on CD. I write ''Goodall'', but this particular set might better be termed the Hunter _Twilight of the Gods_. When I last month reviewed the new Haitink version of this opera, I referred to several Brunnhildes, but not—heinously—to Rita Hunter, whose assumption of the role, especially in this culminating work of the cycle, has been one of the glories of Wagnerian singing on disc in the past 20 years. I was astonished anew at how she combines, under Goodall's patient nurturing, the needs of tone, line and words into one seamless and rewarding whole."
> 
> ...


Her Siegfried scene in the English Ring is remarkable!!!!!!!! Such beautiful singing.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> Noted…that said, and regardless of the intent behind making this thread…Aerobats comments were uncalled for. I wish Aerobat would comment on “the tv show” that was viewed and what Mum sang. Context is everything and I would like to be given the opportunity to afford Aerobat with that.
> 
> In relation to the aforementioned comments from Aerobat…the moral of this tale is “careful what you say because you don’t know who might read it one day”


See if you can locate a lost Youtube video of her singing Suicidio in front of a grand for your collection. It was spectacular with great low notes. She has a video on Youtube of Fairies in the Garden in which she does standup. Likely the only opera star who could ever do it. She was brilliant!!!!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Life is filled with comparisons. Comparing things is the way we learn to think. 

I think of these singing matches not as competitions for "better" and "worse" (though they are often that) but as lessons in musical perception. I learn from others how to be a more informed listener, and I try to say things that will make others do the same. The contests are also a way of participating in the forum without having to write long, detailed analyses of aesthetics which exhaust me and bring in not a dime for all my work. Been there, done that. 

Bring on the divas!


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

brunny2022 said:


> Noted…that said, and regardless of the intent behind making this thread…Aerobats comments were uncalled for. I wish Aerobat would comment on “the tv show” that was viewed and what Mum sang. Context is everything and I would like to be given the opportunity to afford Aerobat with that.
> 
> In relation to the aforementioned comments from Aerobat…the moral of this tale is “careful what you say because you don’t know who might read it one day”





Seattleoperafan said:


> Aerobat is not a regular poster here. I can't remember the last time I read a post of his. Forums like this are not places to hang out if you are touchy about certain singers. I love Joan Sutherland but hardly ever post anything of her's beyond the early 60's as this crowd becomes so critical of her later singing and I get territorial about it and upset.


First, I certainly did not set out to offend anyone, and I apologise to anyone who takes offense at what I post. I am entitled to an opinion though, and I take offense at people who consider opinions invalid. Many posters on here have opinions that I don't agree with - however I don't take offense, nor do I attack them for their opinions. 

Now, as to the TV show. It was 32 years ago, I was a teenager, and my memory isn't that good as to recall exactly what! I think my parents had built this up to the point where I was expecting something very different to what I heard. 

FInally, the reason I am not a regular poster on here is really simple. I have opinions that I expect to see treated with at least some respect. Sadly, that frequently isn't the case on this forum (this is a perfect case in point), which is why I've largely given up posting and treat it as more as something to read occasional, but not to participate in very often.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

brunny2022 said:


> In 1990, she did a concert with The University of Liverpool. It is possible that she did The Terry Wogan Show. Possibly! And to be honest, shows like that do tend to get their guests to do, well, "questionable" skits all in the name of a laugh. There was only one time that this occurred when it worked and that was in the 70s when she appeared on The Ronnie Corbett Show. In 1992, that would have been The Tall Ships Concert in Liverpool. I am wondering what you thought was so bad. It is a shame that you can't remember what she sang.
> 
> I appreciate that everyone has an opinion. Good or bad. If you can, for a moment, put yourself in my shoes. As her daughter....can you imagine how hurtful I found your words? Just coming across them like that? Like I said, I appreciate that everyone has an opinion. But having just started the journey of preserving the many recordings that I have of her (and doing some research), I chanced across this forum and read that.
> 
> But that said, I am sorry that my Mother was "talked up" and ended up in you being so disappointed. It clearly left an impactful impression on you about my Mother and her capabilities as a singer and a performer. But at the end of the day, she continued to sing with her last performance being under the baton of Sir Simon Rattle in September 1994. The reason she stopped singing on the stage and concert platforms was very simple really. She lost her heart to continue after her husband had died 4 months prior.


All I can recall is it being an early-evening mid week programme. I guess Terry Wogan is a possibility! Of course, this could have been something as you say 'questionable', or could even have been bad recording / sound engineering. There have simply been too many years gone by for me to recall with any accuracy.

I can see exactly why you feel the way you do. I will add that in the time that has passed since then I have certainly enjoyed her music on several occasions. My personal bias against listening to opera in any language other than the original, espcially English translations, may limit this, but in no way takes away from the skills that I know she possessed.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Maybe @Seattleoperafan would consider removing Rita Hunter from further contests, although I appreciate this one in particular wasn't his? I know he's done the same for Cheryl Studer who causes arguments amongst some members.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Aerobat said:


> ... which is why I've largely given up posting ...


Really ? I just wanted to let you know, that I like you in the forum. I learn a lot from experts on singers from the past, maybe I even vote for these old legends more frequently than I initially imagined. At the same time, it feels good to also have pals who can enjoy the contemporary singers. I remember you as such - not a topic of this thread.


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

post deleted by user


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

brunny2022 said:


> OMG Serious? Her Odabella is amazing! I go to that YouTube video quite often tbh. I would be hopeless in such competitions (in terms of picking just one). This is why my Father and I would get into some very heated conversations. My love is for ALL voices and what they are capable of. Every singer, brings something "to the table" so to speak. For example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Although someone else might possibly post a contest with your mother in it I create most of the contests here and I have gone through and removed Rita Hunter from all future contests even though I have all along been a big champion of your mother's talent. I hope this makes you happy. Our contests are a major way for us to interact with each other, often finding out new singers, find out each other's point of view and learn from each other and I have daily contests planned out for the next year and a half at least. But in none of them will I have anything to do with Rita Hunter in them which is a shame as she is wonderful in many very difficult roles. I hope you can be in peace now. We will not stop comparing singers as that is what many of us enjoy doing, but I am doing my part to take Rita out of that equation in deference to your wishes. I also think it a good idea if anyone else creates a contest that they also avoid putting Rita Hunter in their contest though I can't dictate what other people choose to do. I have done my part.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Censorship on Talk Classical?


----------



## brunny2022 (29 d ago)

I think I am going to bow out here. I will leave this forum and leave you all to it. I don't think there is anything I can say that will ever get anyone to understand how I feel so I will leave it be. I wish you all the best.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Censorship on Talk Classical?


Yes, well, I can only control what I post but I can live with this solution.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Yes, well, I can only control what I post but I can live with this solution.


It is similar as we would do at the live party. We would adjust to a friend having trigers and painful spots. However, the lady apparently is not OK with the concept of these contests at all. She sees those singers as a wider circle of her friends, her mom's colleagues, and perceives the idea of competition as flawed and disrespectful. She seems to have left. I think you can keep her mother in your contests. And being reminded to stay respectful in our evaluations doesn't hurt either.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I always hope singers don't read press or opinions in social networks. One should clearly realize that his or her achievements are unlikely to be appreciated by everyone. 
Even in my profession I avoid reading comments, though emotionally I'm ready for incompetent opinions.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

If Netrebko's son Tiago shows up, we're fecked...


----------



## tsquare07 (Sep 22, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> If Netrebko's son Tiago show up, we're fecked...


I think we should be respectful here. Tiago has autism. But i think she would just tell him to ignore it here anyway. After all opinions are just that. Opinions. And it's okay if not everyone likes mommy's recordings.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

tsquare07 said:


> I think we should be respectful here. Tiago has autism. But i think she would just tell him to ignore it anyway. After all opinions are just that. Opinions. And it's okay if not everyone likes mommy's recordings.


Explain exactly where a hint - even a trace - of a lack of respect was expressed within that one line sentence in reference to Netrebko's son, Tiago.

He has a mild form of autism, was treated by pediatric specialists, and is now attending a mainstream school in New York...

All of which is completely - totally - irrelevant to the comment as Netrebko and her son were merely secondary elements used to illustrate the overall concept that I was trying to express which was that if we are now to face the intensely fierce and relentless wrath of the collective offspring of every performer ever criticized within this forum then the person we have to fear the most would be her son as no one has been carved up like a roast turkey as cheerfully and enthusiastically as Netrebko has been.

I could just as easily gone with Renee Fleming and her daughters, Sage and Amelia, but whatever her shortcomings, Fleming is a gracious and genuinely kind-hearted person who is almost impossible to dislike if you've ever actually met her.


----------



## tsquare07 (Sep 22, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> Explain - in detail - exactly where even a trace of a lack of respect was expressed within that one line sentence in reference to Netrebko's son, Tiago.
> 
> He has a mild form of autism, was treated by pediatric specialists, and is now attending a mainstream school in New York... all of which is completely - totally - irrelevant to the comment as Netrebko and her son were merely secondary elements used to illustrate the overall concept that I was trying to express which was that if we are now to face the wrath of the collective offspring of every performer ever criticized within this forum then the person we have to fear the most would be her son as no one has been carved up like a roast turkey as enthusiastically as Netrebko has been.


So why did you say you are f**** if Tiago show up here? And why do you assume that Tiago is gonna be angry if he sees all of this thing? Do you just assume he's just gonna turn out like his mother?

I'm not defending Anna Netrebko at all with all of her questionable behaviors, and i don't know what she's gonna say to her son, but you say it as if one day he's gonna be here and trash us. As if he'll be blind to all of his mother's flawed. But how do we know for certain that he will end up that way?

Unless he's actually here and stubbornly defend his mother for the wrong reasons than yes, criticize him. But he's never done such things.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

tsquare07 said:


> So why did you say you are f**** if Tiago show up here? And why do you assume that Tiago is gonna be angry if he sees all of this thing? Do you just assume he's just gonna turn out like his mother?
> 
> I'm not defending Anna Netrebko at all with all of her questionable behaviors, and i don't know what she's gonna say to her son, but you say it as if one day he's gonna be here and trash us. As if he'll be blind to all of his mother's flawed. But how do we know for certain that he will end up that way?


First of all, I used the Irish word "feck" which is used by almost everyone in Ireland in all contexts of speech and which is not equivalent to the English "f-word" that you used in your reply - They're two totally different words that do not mean the same thing even though they sound alike and can both be used as really really handy modifiers when you're looking for just the right adjective or adverb - There is no sexual component to the word "feck" - It just doesn't mean what you think it does.

Second, it was just a feckin' joke - (see how handy that came in?) - It's obvious that you didn't get it, don't get, and never will get it. I could literally spend days trying to explain this joke to you but it would be far easier and significantly less time-consuming to actually teach a dog how to hold up a liquor store than to do so (not to mention being far more practical) and thus, I'm going to have to take a pass on this one.









FECK: the FACINATING history, meanings, and origins of 'feck'


For any Irish person reading this, there’s no reason needed as to why the history, meanings, and origins of ‘feck’ need to be dissected.




www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com


----------



## tsquare07 (Sep 22, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> First of all, I used the Irish word "feck" which is not equivalent to the "f-word" that you used in your reply - They're two totally different words that do not mean the same thing even though they can both be used as really handy modifiers when you're looking for just the right adjective or adverb - There is no sexual component to the word "feck".
> 
> Second, it was just a feckin' joke - (see how handy that came in?) - It's obvious that you didn't get it, don't get, and never will get it. I could literally spend days trying to explain this joke to you but it would be far far easier to actually teach a dog how to hold up a liquor store (not to mention being far more practical) than to do so.


You want to make a joke about Netrebko, fine. But why dragging the kid into this? How do you think he'll feel when he read this? And there's no need to compare me to a dog.
And i made absolutely no reference to sexual side of the fword at all. Isn't fecked up suppose to mean we are screwed (or f** up)? As if the kid is gonna screw us up (Which there's no telling that's what he would do)?


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

ColdGenius said:


> I always hope singers don't read press or opinions in social networks. One should clearly realize that his or her achievements are unlikely to be appreciated by everyone.
> Even in my profession I avoid reading comments, though emotionally I'm ready for incompetent opinions.


There are a few thoughts in my mind on this, and I appreciate that it's wandering off the original contest.

1. There are many definitions of 'good', and what one person likes another may not. A personal dislike doesn't mean that a singer is 'bad'. The qualities that I like in some singers are widely disliked by many on this forum - we have different tastes and look for different things in singers. I accept this, and don't feel that my personal taste is in any way reduced by differences of opinion with other people. 

2. We all need to accept criticism of ourselves (and in this case perhaps, our relations). I work in a field where feedback on my performance is accepted as normal. I don't just want to hear, "Oh, Aerobat, you're amazing", because that doesn't help me to improve. I also don't want "Oi!, that's c**p", I want constructive criticism that will help me to improve. Surely any professional person would want this?

3. Singers, like all of us, age. There's always decline going on in our whole bodies (I'm not a singer, but at 51 my knees aren't what they were 30 years ago, and don't I know it why I try to keep up with my kids!). Vocal decline isn't something to view with shame, it's something that is perfectly normal as part of aging. Gheorghiu has cut back her schedule dramatically, as she recognises that her vocal abilities and endurance aren't what they were at the hight of her career. But vocal decline shouldn't be seen as negative, rather as something that will happen to every singer sooner or later. A late career performance can still be very expressive or emotive, whilst not as technically accomplished as that singer was earlier in their career. None of this takes away from a great singer, it's simply an inevitable fact of aging.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

tsquare07 said:


> You want to make a joke about Netrebko, fine. But why dragging the kid into this? How do you think he'll feel when he read this? And there's no need to compare me to a dog.


As I read what you've written, it has become apparent that English isn't your first language and consequently, something is going to be consistently lost in translation as you are evidently misinterpreting every statement that's been made and thus it just doesn't make any sense to continue trying to clarify something that accomplishes nothing other than causing further confusion.


----------



## tsquare07 (Sep 22, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> As I read what you've written, it has become apparent that English isn't your first language and consequently, something is going to be consistently lost in translation as you are evidently misinterpreting every statement that's been made and thus it just doesn't make any sense to continue trying to clarify something that accomplishes nothing other than causing further confusion.


No, it's not my first language, but you are not responding to the points i made earlier either.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Temporarily closed, to sort this out.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

After hopefully sorting out a few issues with the members involved, the thread is now open again. Except for the fecking dogs discussion, that's closed.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

So, the word "feck" does exist...


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Yes, well, I can only control what I post but I can live with this solution.


People should treat everyone with the respect they are due as human beings. That one can sometimes enthusiastically exhort one singer over another, or put down this or that singer for some perceived fault or make some quip to demean that other singer one momentarily detests for a sour or missed note, is the nature of opera forums. Opera queens of both sexes will be bitchy sometimes to one another or toward rival divas. It’s all in good fun.

But…I wouldn’t want to read my mother’s name on someone’s mouth with criticism of any of her qualities - even with the best intentions, it would be hurtful.

So I think brunny2022 is wise to spare herself reading negative comments, but I am sorry she feels the need - I am quite certain no one meant to denigrate the person that we only know as “Rita Hunter,” or indeed her daughter.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> So I think brunny2022 is wise to spare herself reading negative comments, but I am sorry she feels the need ...


She doesn't feel a need, she left the forum.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> So, the word "feck" does exist...


I think we have established this before. We have discussed the dictionary definitions of both "huh" and "feck". How can you forget these crucial conversations ?


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> I think we have established this before. We have discussed the dictionary definitions of both "huh" and "feck". How can you forget these crucial conversations ?


I went even further and found an article, where the difference of meaning in Irish and Scottish English was explained. Probably it was Wikipedia. 😁
After that I easily picked up Russian translation to suit nearly every taste.


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> I went even further and found an article, where the difference of meaning in Irish and Scottish English was explained. Probably it was Wikipedia. 😁
> After that I easily picked up Russian translation to suit nearly every taste.


So what is the Russian word ? Tell me, I had Russian at school yet.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Mistake


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> So what is the Russian word ? Tell me, I had Russian at school yet.


There are several, depending on meaning, emotional context and degree of obscenity. It's unlikely to be taught at school.


----------



## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> So what is the Russian word ? Tell me, I had Russian at school yet.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feck










Column: What does ‘feck’ really mean?


It’s practically our national swearword – but what do we mean when we say ‘feck’? And where did it come from? Stan Carey explains. (Contains strong language)




www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaughnessy said:


> First of all, I used the Irish word "feck" which is used by almost everyone in Ireland in all contexts of speech and which is not equivalent to the English "f-word" that you used in your reply - They're two totally different words that do not mean the same thing even though they sound alike and can both be used as really really handy modifiers when you're looking for just the right adjective or adverb - There is no sexual component to the word "feck" - It just doesn't mean what you think it does.
> 
> Second, it was just a feckin' joke - (see how handy that came in?) - It's obvious that you didn't get it, don't get, and never will get it. I could literally spend days trying to explain this joke to you but it would be far easier and significantly less time-consuming to actually teach a dog how to hold up a liquor store than to do so (not to mention being far more practical) and thus, I'm going to have to take a pass on this one.
> 
> ...


Heavens. I now realize that having been feckless all my life is something to regret. Can one change at 73? Is a stay in Ireland required?


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> She doesn't feel a need, she left the forum.


What are you correcting?


----------



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> What are you correcting?


Maybe no correcting was needed. 
I am absolutely OK to take that sentence back.
Us quarreling after her leaving would be the worst outcome of all and I am preventatively leaving this debate.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Maybe no correcting was needed.
> I am absolutely OK to take that sentence back.
> Us quarreling after her leaving would be the worst outcome of all and I am preventatively leaving this debate.


We took it off line.


----------

