# Ranking of the 10 major Wagner operas



## Almaviva

I haven't seen Rienzi (I got a copy but it's still unwatched), and I haven't listened to his two juvenile efforts, which he didn't consider as part of his works (he called them "immature works" and left instructions to ban them from ever being performed at Bayreuth).

Not considering the above three, I'd like to see how you guys rank Wagner's 10 major operas. Here is how I'd do it:

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walküre
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Lohengrin
6. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
7. Siegfried
8. Tannhäuser
9. Parsifal
10. Der Fliegende Holländer

I know that the most controversial item of my ranking is the low position granted to Parsifal. Yes, the music is sublime but I just can't stomach it with all that incense and pretense. On the other hand, being 9th among Wagner's operas is not a lowly positon, because actually all 10 are extremely good. It's just that among all these masterpieces, my esteem for Parsifal (and Der Fliegende Holländer) is a little smaller than what I feel for the other eight.


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## World Violist

I haven't heard Tannhauser or Lohengrin yet, but I've heard the rest. I'd probably place them like this...

1. Tristan
2. Götterdämmerung
3. Die Walküre
4. Die Meistersinger
5. Das Rheingold
6. Parsifal
7. Siegfried
8. Der Fliegende Holländer

However, I haven't heard Parsifal, Dutchman, or Meistersinger for some time. I'll reacquaint myself with them as time and money permit and listen to the other two, then come back to this if it's still active (maybe if it's not).


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## scytheavatar

1. Tristan und Isolde
1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (tie)
3. Siegfried
4. Die Walküre
5. Götterdämmerung
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
8. Tannhäuser
9. Parsifal 
10. Der Fliegende Holländer

I know that Die Walküre is the most popular of the 4 parts of Der Ring, but I always have Siegfried as my favorite..... provided a good Siegfried is singing in it, which admittedly is extremely rare. I have a feeling that those who rate Siegfried lowly hasn't heard a good Siegfried yet (i.e not Windgassen in Solti's recording). I agree that Parsifal has too little badass dramatic moments compared to his other operas (the only notable one is the awakening scene) but I am surprised by Almaviva's low rating of Die Meistersinger, which to me is easily his most consistent and complete opera with the least boring moments.


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## Almaviva

scytheavatar said:


> 1. Tristan und Isolde
> 1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (tie)
> 3. Siegfried
> 4. Die Walküre
> 5. Götterdämmerung
> 6. Das Rheingold
> 7. Lohengrin
> 8. Tannhäuser
> 9. Parsifal
> 10. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 
> I know that Die Walküre is the most popular of the 4 parts of Der Ring, but I always have Siegfried as my favorite..... provided a good Siegfried is singing in it, which admittedly is extremely rare. I have a feeling that those who rate Siegfried lowly hasn't heard a good Siegfried yet (i.e not Windgassen in Solti's recording). I agree that Parsifal has too little badass dramatic moments compared to his other operas (the only notable one is the awakening scene) but I am surprised by Almaviva's low rating of Die Meistersinger, which to me is easily his most consistent and complete opera with the least boring moments.


But it's not a low rating for Die Meistersinger. I love it! It's one of my favorite operas, considering all other composers. It's just that I love the other five even more.
Tristan und Isolde and Lohengrin get me to tears every time. And I just love the Ring so much that I don't mind the down moments in my three preferred segments. Siegfried on the other hand, I love for the third act, but I don't care as much for the first and second acts (which I consider to be the least interesting moments of the whole Ring with their male voice-only structure), thus its lower position - again, lower as compared to all these masterpieces, because as a matter of fact I love all ten major Wagner operas, it's just that I love Parsifal and Holländer less than I love the other eight. See, I really love Tannhäuser too, but I place Siegfried higher because of its third act.

Let's consider that my top 8 are almost a tie for first, and only Parsifal and Holländer are a little less highly regarded (but still pretty high as compared to operas of other composers).


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## Gualtier Malde

I can't really join the fun since I don't know all 10 (yet), but here's my ranking of those I do know in some detail:

1. Meistersinger (one of my favorite operas overall)
2. Tannhaeuser (moves at breakneck pace, given that it's Wagner)
3. Parsifal (currently working on this one, made a fine first impression on me)
4. Lohengrin (last two acts marvelous, but frankly I find the first act too drawn out)


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## Aramis

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Der Ring
a) Die Walküre
b) Götterdämmerung
c) Das Rheingold
d) Siegfried
3. Lohengrin
4. Tannhäuser
5. Parsifal
6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
7. Der Fliegende Holländer

I think it's possible that Parsifal will move up on my ranking in the future - most likely above Tannhauser, perhaps even above both Tannhauser and Lohengrin. 

I ALSO MUST SCOLD ALMAVIVA FOR FORGETTING UMLAUT IN "Nürnberg" DESPITE PUTTING IT EVERYWHERE ELSE!


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## Chi_townPhilly

Aramis said:


> I think it's possible that Parsifal will move up on my ranking in the future - most likely above Tannh*a*user, perhaps even above both Tannh*a*user and Lohengrin. (Emphasis mine)
> 
> I ALSO MUST SCOLD ALMAVIVA FOR FORGETTING UMLAUT IN "Nürnberg" DESPITE PUTTING IT EVERYWHERE ELSE!


Consider this a karmatic 'scold boomerang.'

But seriously, folks...

I don't think I have any reason to revise the position articulated back here, where I struggled to make significant separations. Might prove more interesting to consider some observations based on others' rankings of the Wagner canon-

Generally, it seems that incidental opera fans tend to rank *Lohengrin* and *Dutchman* (and sometimes *Tannhäuser*) near the top.

(Again, speaking in general terms) major opera enthusiasts who aren't necessarily Wagnerians _per se_ are attracted to *Tristan und Isolde* and *Die Meistersinger*. It seems that those who are more insistent on a more cogent story-line will favor *Die Meistersinger*. *Die Walküre*, too, is a good 'stand-alone' in their eyes, for a well-fitting words plus music unity.

Seems a minor exception exists for skilled musicians and spirited Classical Music enthusiasts who aren't necessarily big opera fans- to acknowledge some pride of place for *Tristan und Isolde* for its inarguable position in the history of compositional development. At times, people who fall into this category also give a nod to *Götterdämmerung* and *Parsifal* for the manner in which they're MUSICALLY fascinating.

Every now and then, you see a non-Wagnerian say that *Das Rheingold* is their favorite Wagner opera- and no doubt that, when absorbed as intended, it really has a lot of unique and near-unique features (continuous music-flow, for instance. Also, it's certified 100% human-free).

The way music-fans rank Wagner operas typically tells me more those who do the ranking than it tells me about the operas- but it's still really cool(!), I *like* finding out these things!


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## emiellucifuge

Youre right Chi town, there is probably large disparity between the opinions of Wagnerians and general opera fans. 

What does my ranking tell you? 

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walkure
3. Gotterdamerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Siegfried
6. Lohengrin
7. Die meistersinger
8. Parsifal
9. Tannhauser
10. Der Fliegende Hollander


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## Almaviva

Aramis said:


> I ALSO MUST SCOLD ALMAVIVA FOR FORGETTING UMLAUT IN "Nürnberg" DESPITE PUTTING IT EVERYWHERE ELSE!


Oooops....


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## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> Youre right Chi town, there is probably large disparity between the opinions of Wagnerians and general opera fans.
> 
> What does my ranking tell you?
> 
> 1. Tristan und Isolde
> 2. Die Walkure
> 3. Gotterdamerung
> 4. Das Rheingold
> 5. Siegfried
> 6. Lohengrin
> 7. Die meistersinger
> 8. Parsifal
> 9. Tannhauser
> 10. Der Fliegende Hollander


Your ranking is almost the same as mine (a couple of inversions in close positions) so whatever CTP draws from these things, I guess we're the same type of music fans.


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## Herkku

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walküre
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Siegfried
6. Lohengrin
7. Tannhäuser
8. Parsifal
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


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## emiellucifuge

Almaviva said:


> Your ranking is almost the same as mine (a couple of inversions in close positions) so whatever CTP draws from these things, I guess we're the same type of music fans.


:tiphat:

Why did you place Siegfried so far behind the other Nibelungen operas? Is it really such a difference in quality?


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## Falstaft

1) Götterdämmerung
2) Parsifal
3) T&I
4) Siegfried
5) Walküre
6) Lohengrin
7) Rheingold
8) Meistersinger
9) Tannhäuser
10) Holländer
11) Rienzi
12) Liebesverbot
13) Feen

*Note ranking prone to change on daily basis.

Would also be interesting to rank individual acts, which for me would start something like

1) Siegfried Act III
2) T&I II
3) Götterdämmerung II
4) Parsifal I
5) Walk III
...


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## ScipioAfricanus

1. Das Rheingold (I can listen to this opera almost anytime)
2. Die Meistersinger
3. Seigfried (weird I know but the usage of Siegfried Idyll in the last movement, and Siegfried forging Nothung inspires the heck outta me)
4. Flying Dutchman (I like its compactness and Beethovenian style)
5. Gotterdammerung
6. Die Walkure

Sorry to say I never fully heard Tristan, Parsifal, Lohengrin, and Tannhauser only excerpts.


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## mamascarlatti

1.	Die Walküre 
2.	Tristan und Isolde
3.	Götterdämmerung
4.	Das Rheingold
5.	Lohengrin
6.	Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
7.	Siegfried 
8.	Der Fliegende Holländer
9.	Tannhäuser

Still to explore Parsifal


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## Almaviva

emiellucifuge said:


> :tiphat:
> 
> Why did you place Siegfried so far behind the other Nibelungen operas? Is it really such a difference in quality?


It's not that far behind, just, I like Lohengrin and Meistersinger more than Siegfried. But I think that yes, it is clearly less good than the other three, due to the long and boring first and second acts. The third act, however, is pretty spectacular, and written in a very different style, given that Tristan had already surfaced and Wagner was restarting with the Ring after years of pause.


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## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> 1. Die Walküre
> 2. Tristan und Isolde
> 3. Götterdämmerung
> 4. Das Rheingold
> 5. Lohengrin
> 6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> 7. Siegfried
> 8. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 9. Tannhäuser
> 
> Still to explore Parsifal


Also fairly similar to mine.:tiphat:


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## Poppin' Fresh

1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Parsifal
5. Die Walküre
6. Siegfried
7. Das Rheingold
8. Lohengrin
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Tannhäuser


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## emiellucifuge

Perhaps this could all be compiled into a defintive ranking?
Or am i list-crazy?!


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## Aramis

I think that Mime is the reason for which most of us place Siegfried so low. Mime is funny bitch and what he brings into Ring Cycle isn't bad in itself but what he sings is, may I say, not the most enjoyable thing that Wagner did happen to write. Mainly because it's standard to give this role to those singers that can sing like gumbies. In his first monologue listener thinks "hilarious quasi-comical character!", ten minutes later "shup up with your groaning damn Nibelung and let Siegfried and Wotan sing something!", all the rest of opera until his death you just can't stand him.

But wait, perhaps it's not weakness but another proof of Wagner's genius? He could want us to be as annoyed with Mime as Siegfried, when he finally vanishes we feel relief together with title character. 

But at the other hand why when Siegfried leaves him in first act with great rejoicing Wagner forces us to still stand his presence which gets even worse during time that Siegfried enjoys being away from him?


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## jhar26

1 The ring
a Die Walkure
b Das Rheingold
c Gotterdammerung
d Siegfried

2 Tristan und Isolde
3 Lohengrin
4 Tannhauser
5 Der Fliegende Hollander.

I've never heard Die Meistersinger or Parsifal. I've got DVD's of both, but I haven't seen them yet.


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## Almaviva

Aramis said:


> I think that Mime is the reason for which most of us place Siegfried so low. Mime is funny bitch and what he brings into Ring Cycle isn't bad in itself but what he sings is, may I say, not the most enjoyable thing that Wagner did happen to write. Mainly because it's standard to give this role to those singers that can sing like gumbies. In his first monologue listener thinks "hilarious quasi-comical character!", ten minutes later "shup up with your groaning damn Nibelung and let Siegfried and Wotan sing something!", all the rest of opera until his death you just can't stand him.
> 
> But wait, perhaps it's not weakness but another proof of Wagner's genius? He could want us to be as annoyed with Mime as Siegfried, when he finally vanishes we feel relief together with title character.
> 
> But at the other hand why when Siegfried leaves him in first act with great rejoicing Wagner forces us to still stand his presence which gets even worse during time that Siegfried enjoys being away from him?


Very interesting post, Aramis. I like your posts, man!:tiphat:


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## Aramis

Almaviva said:


> Very interesting post, Aramis. I like your posts, man!:tiphat:


ok, how about I marry your daughter?


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## emiellucifuge

Lol!!!!!:lol:


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## Almaviva

Aramis said:


> ok, how about I marry your daughter?


It depends. Are you rich?:devil:


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## Aramis

Almaviva said:


> It depends. Are you rich?:devil:


No, but I have couple of opera CDs and DVDs that I think you didn't hear so far and after wedding, when we move in to your house, you will be able to check them out.


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## Almaviva

Aramis said:


> No, but I have couple of opera CDs and DVDs that I think you didn't hear so far and after wedding, when we move in to your house, you will be able to check them out.


In this case I'll let you stay in the dog house. The opera CDs and DVDs however will stay in the main house because the dog house gets pretty wet when it rains, and you wouldn't want your discs to be damaged.:devil:


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## jflatter

1. Die Walkure
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Siegfried
4. Gotterdammerung
5. Parsifal
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
8. Die Meistersinger
9. Tannhauser
10. Der Flieginde Hollander


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> 1 The ring
> a Die Walkure
> b Das Rheingold
> c Gotterdammerung
> d Siegfried
> 
> 2 Tristan und Isolde
> 3 Lohengrin
> 4 Tannhauser
> 5 Der Fliegende Hollander.
> 
> I've never heard Die Meistersinger or Parsifal. I've got DVD's of both, but I haven't seen them yet.


Gaston, since you've been doing it for the top 100 operas, would you be able to tally these rankings and come up with the TC Ranking of Wagner's Operas?


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Gaston, since you've been doing it for the top 100 operas, would you be able to tally these rankings and come up with the TC Ranking of Wagner's Operas?


I wouldn't know how since some people have ranked the four ring operas seperately while others have ranked them as one unit.


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> I wouldn't know how since some people have ranked the four ring operas seperately while others have ranked them as one unit.


Let's say a person had ranked Tristan first, the Ring second, and Parsifal third. If you're giving 10 points to the first ranked, 9 to the second, etc.

You would translate the person's ranking into scores, like this:
Tristan - 10 points.
Ring - 9, 8, 7, and 6 points, total 30 points, divided by four operas, therefore the average is 7.5.
Then you'd have Rheingold 7.5, Walküre 7.5, Siegfried 7.5, and Götterdämerung 7.5. Next, Parsifal would have been pushed to 6th place, and you'd grant 5 points to Parsifal.
If the person had ranked the Ring first, this would give us 10, 9, 8, 7, and each Ring opera for that member would be granted the average of 8.5. And so on, that member's second choice would be pushed to 5th, and get 6 points.


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## ScipioAfricanus

jhar26 said:


> 1 The ring
> a Die Walkure
> b Das Rheingold
> c Gotterdammerung
> d Siegfried
> 
> 2 Tristan und Isolde
> 3 Lohengrin
> 4 Tannhauser
> 5 Der Fliegende Hollander.
> 
> I've never heard Die Meistersinger or Parsifal. I've got DVD's of both, but I haven't seen them yet.


If you still persist in not watching them, please send them my way


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## Chi_townPhilly

If I were to assign numbers according to my personal taste, it would be something like this:

(t) 1. *Die Walküre*- 10
(t) 1. *Tristan und Isolde*- 10
(t) 1. *Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg*- 10
(t) 1. *Götterdämmerung*- 10
(t) 1. *Parsifal*- 10

(t) 2. *Tannhäuser*- 9.95
(t) 2. *Das Rheingold*- 9.95
(t) 2. *Siegfried*- 9.95

3. Der Fliegende Holländer- 9.8
4. Lohengrin- 9.75

In all earnestness, though, we could simply go to the '100 recommended operas' thread,
and see where each Wagner work finished-

1. _Der Ring des Nibelungen_
2. _Tristan und Isolde_
10. _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_
13. _Parsifal_
21. _Lohengrin_
28. _Tanhäuser_
42. _Der Fliegende Holländer_

If splitting the _Ring_ operas into their component parts, 
it then becomes an issue of where a person would place each one in relation to the other six...


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## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> If I were to assign numbers according to my personal taste, it would be something like this:
> 
> (t) 1. *Die Walküre*- 10
> (t) 1. *Tristan und Isolde*- 10
> (t) 1. *Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg*- 10
> (t) 1. *Götterdämmerung*- 10
> (t) 1. *Parsifal*- 10
> 
> (t) 2. *Tannhäuser*- 9.95
> (t) 2. *Das Rheingold*- 9.95
> (t) 2. *Siegfried*- 9.95
> 
> 3. Der Fliegende Holländer- 9.8
> 4. Lohengrin- 9.75
> 
> In all earnestness, though, we could simply go to the '100 recommended operas' thread,
> and see where each Wagner work finished-
> 
> 1. _Der Ring des Nibelungen_
> 2. _Tristan und Isolde_
> 10. _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_
> 13. _Parsifal_
> 21. _Lohengrin_
> 28. _Tanhäuser_
> 42. _Der Fliegende Holländer_
> 
> If splitting the _Ring_ operas into their component parts,
> it then becomes an issue of where a person would place each one in relation to the other six...


Yes, that's how I feel too, and what I meant when others questioned why I had ranked some of his operas so low. I said, "it's not that I'm ranking them low, I love them all, just, I love some more than I love others but I still love them all; consider my first 8 as a tie, then my last two as excellent operas that I love a little less than the first 8."

But the problem of the Ring being played in four nights is what motivated me to propose this ranking of his 10 major works, independently of the Top 100 thread, because it does introduce a little problem. We discussed this problem there and decided to go for considering the Ring as one opera, exactly because we figured that Wagner would clog most of the top 10 positions. So, considering the Ring as one opened up space for 3 more operas of other composers. Wagner ended up with three in the top 10 instead of 6, which I think is fine because it made the top ten more meaningful.

But here in this Wagner only thread, it may be fun to see where people would place the individual Ring operas as compared to his other 6 major ones.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Herkku said:


> 1. Tristan und Isolde
> 2. Die Walküre
> 3. Götterdämmerung
> 4. Das Rheingold
> 5. Siegfried
> 6. Lohengrin
> 7. Tannhäuser
> 8. Parsifal
> 9. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 10. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


Broadly agreable. Might be too late now. But I think I can agree with the ranking above by member Herkku from #1 to #5.

Does anyone here know how many operas/stage works Wagner wrote altogether? I'm also aware it can depend on how you count, for example if _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ is counted as four or as one. (I would count as four).


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## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Let's say a person had ranked Tristan first, the Ring second, and Parsifal third. If you're giving 10 points to the first ranked, 9 to the second, etc.
> 
> You would translate the person's ranking into scores, like this:
> Tristan - 10 points.
> Ring - 9, 8, 7, and 6 points, total 30 points, divided by four operas, therefore the average is 7.5.
> Then you'd have Rheingold 7.5, Walküre 7.5, Siegfried 7.5, and Götterdämerung 7.5. Next, Parsifal would have been pushed to 6th place, and you'd grant 5 points to Parsifal.
> If the person had ranked the Ring first, this would give us 10, 9, 8, 7, and each Ring opera for that member would be granted the average of 8.5. And so on, that member's second choice would be pushed to 5th, and get 6 points.


Yeah, well, it will take a smarter person than me to sort all of this out. People ranking five different operas as their number one, saying that they sort of agree with the list of a previous poster.... Besides, your system is far from perfect. I for example have ranked the ring as my number one. Under your system (since I didn't rank Meistersinger and Parsifal) that would give each of the ring operas 6.05 points. If I would rank them seperately however Siegfried would be my number eight, meaning that it would get just one point. That's a difference of more than five points.


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## jhar26

ScipioAfricanus said:


> If you still persist in not watching them, please send them my way


One day they will get their turn, I'm sure.


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## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Yeah, well, it will take a smarter person than me to sort all of this out. People ranking five different operas as their number one, saying that they sort of agree with the list of a previous poster.... Besides, your system is far from perfect. I for example have ranked the ring as my number one. Under your system (since I didn't rank Meistersinger and Parsifal) that would give each of the ring operas 6.05 points. If I would rank them seperately however Siegfried would be my number eight, meaning that it would get just one point. That's a difference of more than five points.


Nope. You'd still grant 10 points to the first ranked opera, independently of how many the person has seen and ranked. In your case, you've ranked 8, by not ranking Meistersinger and Parsifal. Der Ring is your first, so, 10, 9, 8, 7, and you get the 8.5 average for each. "If I would rank them separetely however Siegfried would be my number eight" - if... but you didn't, so, Siegfried still gets 8.5 points. You could have ranked them separetely if you wanted, giving to Siegfried it's lowly ranking that you seem to believe it deserves. OK, Meistersinger and Parsifal got shorthanded by this method, but then, this may be because they weren't attractive enough in your priorities to motivate you to go after them and listen to them, so, this factor may need to be taken into consideration as well.

Five different operas tied for number one: this grants 10 points to each.

Sort of agree with a list of a previous poster: you repeat the scores that the previous poster has granted to each opera.

My system is far from perfect: systems often are far from perfect. The world is far from perfect. We learn to live with the imperfections.

So, the variable method of voting *can* be translated into an equalizing system; the imperfections exist at the individual raters' peril. People were free to vote in a linear way; if they didn't, then their votes will have some degree of inaccuracy but this was their choice. For instance - you see that your way of voting has artificially boosted Siegfried: well, change your vote, then, and place Siegfried as your 8th.

Anyway, I do see a way to do it, but I'm too lazy to do it myself, therefore I'm trying to convince you to do it.


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## Almaviva

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Does anyone here know how many operas/stage works Wagner wrote altogether? I'm also aware it can depend on how you count, for example if _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ is counted as four or as one. (I would count as four).


13. Falstaff above has ranked them all.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Almaviva said:


> 13. Falstaft above has ranked them all.


Yeah- and I hope it soesn't mean that I have to turn in my membership card to the Wagner Society to say it- but I've never heard a complete performance of _Die Feen_ or _Das Liebesverbot_... but I HAVE heard _Rienzi_, somewhat abridged (who performs Rienzi complete??), and based upon what I've heard, it rests comfortably in that lower tier with _Lohengrin_ and _Holländer_. (Maybe rating 9.70 on my metric.)

Wagner, of course, would disagree- and persisted throughout his life in describing it as an "immature work;" even going as far to say (at times) that he "despised" it. The fact that _Rienzi_ had some measure of persistent popularity during his lifetime was somethng Wagner found embarrassing.

Every now and then, the issue comes up whether or not a staging of _Rienzi_ at Bayreuth could ever happen. Wagner would have never wished it- but now that Katharina Wagner has deployed her curious set of production talents to a staging of _Rienzi_ elsewhere, maybe we're closer to a "yes" answer than we ever have been.


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## myaskovsky2002

buff...it has to be Wagner?

Martin
Tristan! Nibelungen!


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## Almaviva

myaskovsky2002 said:


> buff...it has to be Wagner?
> 
> Martin
> Tristan! Nibelungen!


What do you suggest instead? "The Ranking of the 10 major Wagner operas that weren't composed by Wagner?" I'd say that these don't exist.

When you wanted a thread on Tchaikowsky, you resisted the idea of merging it, right?

This thread here is about Wagner.


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## scytheavatar

Chi_townPhilly said:


> (who performs Rienzi complete??)


Depends on how you define "complete", because the longest possible version of Rienzi, at 6+ hours long, is lost due to world war 2 and is impossible to be performed again unless someone invents a time machine. All surviving scores of that operas have some degree of cuts in them, and Wagner himself was trying to cut the opera down to a length of his preference before his death.


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## brianwalker

Comparing this thread to the Puccini one there seems to be more consensus that Tannhauser and Parsifal are Wagner's worst operas.


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## Air

brianwalker said:


> Comparing this thread to the Puccini one there seems to be more consensus that Tannhauser and Parsifal are Wagner's worst operas.


Where did you get that notion? _Parsifal_ is widely recognized as one of Wagner's greatest achievements (though I personally haven't heard it yet). And I'm quite fond of _Tannhäuser_, too.

Wagner's worst operas are probably his two early efforts - _Die Feen_ and _Das Liebesverbot_. Besides _Rienzi_, which is so-so, the rest of his operas are nothing less than masterpieces.

I haven't given this exercise a shot yet, by the way. Why not since I'm familiar with a few more now? 

I'm only listing the ones I've heard/seen thus far.

1. _Die Walküre_
1. _Tristan und Isolde_
3. _Götterdämmerung_
4. _Tannhäuser_
5. _Siegfried_
5. _Lohengrin_
7. _Das Rheingold_ (somehow doesn't click with me as much as the others)

I've only heard snippets (but pretty darn good snippets) from _Meistersinger_ and _Parsifal_. Got to get to these two.


----------



## brianwalker

Air said:


> Where did you get that notion? _Parsifal_ is widely recognized as one of Wagner's greatest achievements (though I personally haven't heard it yet). And I'm quite fond of _Tannhäuser_, too.
> 
> Wagner's worst operas are probably his two early efforts - _Die Feen_ and _Das Liebesverbot_. Besides _Rienzi_, which is so-so, the rest of his operas are nothing less than masterpieces.
> 
> I haven't given this exercise a shot yet, by the way. Why not since I'm familiar with a few more now?
> 
> I'm only listing the ones I've heard/seen thus far.
> 
> 1. _Die Walküre_
> 1. _Tristan und Isolde_
> 3. _Götterdämmerung_
> 4. _Tannhäuser_
> 5. _Siegfried_
> 5. _Lohengrin_
> 7. _Das Rheingold_ (somehow doesn't click with me as much as the others)
> 
> I've only heard snippets (but pretty darn good snippets) from _Meistersinger_ and _Parsifal_. Got to get to these two.


I mean out of his major operas, from The Dutchman onwards. I'm talking about the rankings in this thread, not the general reaction. Parsifal is next to the Dutchman (usually dead last) a lot in this thread.


----------



## Air

brianwalker said:


> I mean out of his major operas, from The Dutchman onwards. I'm talking about the rankings in this thread, not the general reaction. *Parsifal is next to the Dutchman (usually dead last) a lot in this thread.*


 I only see two lists in which this is the case. And more often Parsifal ranks securely in the top 5...


----------



## Crudblud

1. Die Walküre
2. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. Das Rheingold
5. Siegfried
6. Der fliegende Holländer 
7. Lohengrin
8. Götterdämmerung







9. Tannhäuser

I haven't managed to sit through Parsifal yet, I always seem to pick the worst time to start watching/listening to it.


----------



## brianwalker

Air said:


> I only see two lists in which this is the case. And more often Parsifal ranks securely in the top 5...





Crudblud said:


> 1. Die Walküre
> 2. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> 3. Tristan und Isolde
> 4. Das Rheingold
> 5. Siegfried
> 6. Der fliegende Holländer
> 7. Lohengrin
> 8. Götterdämmerung
> 
> 9. Tannhäuser
> 
> I haven't managed to sit through Parsifal yet, I always seem to pick the worst time to start watching/listening to it.


 Just in time crudblud!


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## Crudblud

"Punctual" is my middle name!


----------



## Sator

Die Walküre
Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal
Götterdämmerung
Siegfried
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Das Rheingold
Tannhäuser
Der fliegende Holländer 
Lohengrin
Rienzi


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## Sieglinde

Haven't seen a full Meistersinger yet and only heard Rienzi once.


Götterdämmerung
Die Walküre
Das Rheingold
Tristan
Holländer
Tannhäuser
Parsifal
Siegfried
Lohengrin


----------



## tannhaeuser

1. Tannhäuser
2. Das Rheingold
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Tristan und Isolde
5. Lohengrin
6. Die Walküre
7. Der fliegende Holländer
8. Meistersinger von Nürnberg
9. Parsifal
10. Siegfried


----------



## rsmithor

Siegfried
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Das Rheingold 
Parsifal
Tristan und Isolde
Der Fliegende Holländer
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Tannhäuser
Lohengrin
Rienzi


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## jfmurray

1. Die Walküre
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Siegfried
5. Lohengrin
6. Tannhäuser
7. Das Rheingold
8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
9. Parsifal
10. Der Fliegende Holländer


----------



## slowjazz

Tannhauser
Walkure
Meistersinger
siegfried
das rheigold
Tristan
Lohengrin
Rienzi


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## Couchie

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Parsifal
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Die Walküre
5. Tannhäuser
6. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
7. Das Rheingold
8. Lohengrin
9. Der fliegende Holländer
10. Siegfried


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## Couchie

I should point out that Tristan is my favourite and Siegfried my least favourite by a very large margin.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Yes I really can't warm much to Siegfried. 

But I have a lot of trouble with Parsifal too, I've watched it 3 times and heard it 2 times so I've given in a fair chance and I can't get anywhere with it. What to do?


----------



## Xaltotun

Well. Haven't seen Rienzi, and I love the Dutchman a tiny bit less than the others... but regarding those, I just can't myself to rank pure perfection. Well, I'll give it a try, but I'm sure I'll feel silly.

1. Die Walküre
2. Das Rheingold
3. Siegfried
4. Parsifal
5. Lohengrin
6. Tannhäuser
7. Tristan und Isolde
8. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
9. Götterdämmerung

Yep, I feel silly now!


----------



## Couchie

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes I really can't warm much to Siegfried.
> 
> But I have a lot of trouble with Parsifal too, I've watched it 3 times and heard it 2 times so I've given in a fair chance and I can't get anywhere with it. What to do?


Which DVDs do you have of it?


----------



## mamascarlatti

Couchie said:


> Which DVDs do you have of it?


These two:

















I think the performances are fine, it probably the story that puts me off.


----------



## Couchie

mamascarlatti said:


> I think the performances are fine, it probably the story that puts me off.


Parsifal is one of those that I needed to read a coherent explanation of before I could "get" it. From Bryan Magee's _The Philosophy of Schopenhauer:_

Amfortas has a terrible wound of which he does not die, yet which never heals, with the result that he lives suspended in a permanent state of mortal agony. Despite this, as King of the order he is still required to carry out the religious ritual - the continued use of the grail to celebrate the Holy Feast - which is the order's raison d'etre. This duty pushes him each time to the limits of humiliation, mortification and suffering.

Over the years, knight after knight seeks to retrieve the situation by venturing forth to recover the spear, and with it Amfortas' release and the order's honour, but without exception they succumb to Klingsor's temptresses and never return. A prophecy emanating from the grail tells Amfortas that redemption will come only at the hands of an innocent whom compassion, not pre-existing knowledge (still less cleverness), has rendered understanding.

This is Parsifal. When he comes on the scene he is as ignorant and as lacking in compassion as a human being can well be: he has no idea who he is or where he comes from; he has allowed his mother to die by his sheer disregard for her loving concern for him; and he kills merely for something to do. Religious enactments have no meaning for him. When faced with the torture of Amfortas this does stir something in him, but he has no idea what it is.

Then Kundry attempts to seduce him. Her subtle arousal of his sexual awareness by associating herself with his mother brings home to him for the first time his responsibility for his mother's death. Then he experiences the full onslaught of sexual desire - and it is this, the rack of passion, that makes him realize what it is that has happened to Amfortas, and thus the nature of the wound. Further, it leads him to apprehend for the first time the condition of the whole of suffering mankind, the rack of unsatisfied willing on which it is endlessly stretched out - and hence to understand the compassion of a Christ for humanity at large - and hence to understand the significance of the religious ceremony he has witnessed.

Armed with these insights, he is enabled to withstand Kundry's temptations, and thus to regain the spear from Klingsor. With this he returns to Montsalvat and touches the wound of Amfortas - which at once heals, thereby releasing Amfortas from any further compulsion to live with his disgrace. The return of the spear to Montsalvat opens up a new era for the depleted, dishonoured and decaying order. Parsifal, succeeding Amfortas as its king, takes up with full consciousness the task of restoring it, and leading the religious ceremonies that express the purpose of its being.

People seem to be turned off by the religiosity, but at no point does Parsifal bow down and start praying to God. Redemption is achieved by understanding and compassion, not God's forgiveness. Wagner "uses" Christianity like he uses Norse mythology in the _Ring_ to tell a story more rooted in Schopenhauerian or Buddhist principles than Biblical ones. Per usual however Wagner is ambiguous enough so Christians can also interpret it to be a fundamentally Christian work if they so choose.


----------



## Ukko

All of the operas are pretty rank. Die Meistersinger is probably the least 'fragrant'.

[Sorry folks, it's that thread title; I resisted for a long time.]


----------



## Couchie

All of the operas are pretty rank. Tristan und Isolde is probably the most luxuriant!


----------



## Ukko

Couchie said:


> All of the operas are pretty rank. Tristan und Isolde is probably the most luxuriant!


Your canine and ursine friends may agree with you.


----------



## JeffH

Wagner Ranking

1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
2. Die Walküre
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. Tannhäuser
5. Das Rheingold
6. Der Fliegende Holländer
7. Götterdämmerung
8. Siegfried
9. Lohengrin
10. Parsifal

Thoughts:

1. I'm with Nietzsche: a) I find Wagner's extreme religiosity fairly odious (hence the low ranking of Lohengrin and Parsifal) and b) conversely no need to give short shrift to his more Italianate works (hence the deference given to Rheingold and Dutchman);
2. I like to think of W's operas as follows: two religious (aforementioned); two having to do with singing contests (which as a songwriter I am partial to); two featuring the sea; and the Ring (the two earlier and more accessible ones and the two later more ponderous ones;
3. I can only hope that my considerations of theme (i.e., what the operas are about) are not overshadowing proper consideration of sheer musicality -- at the moment I don't think so but am open to criticism on that score...


----------



## Volve

Here's my list of Wagner's operas:

1. All of them.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

1. All four Ring operas.
2. Parsifal or Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg - depending on whether I am in the mood for something exalted and spiritual or something very down-to-earth and with a strong connection to the roots. 
3. Tristan und Isolde.
4. Lohengrin 
5. Tannhäuser and Der fliegende Holländer.


----------



## Couchie

JeffH said:


> Wagner Ranking
> 
> 1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
> 2. Die Walküre
> 3. Tristan und Isolde
> 4. Tannhäuser
> 5. Das Rheingold
> 6. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 7. Götterdämmerung
> 8. Siegfried
> 9. Lohengrin
> 10. Parsifal
> 
> Thoughts:
> 
> 1. I'm with Nietzsche: a) I find Wagner's extreme religiosity fairly odious (hence the low ranking of Lohengrin and Parsifal) and b) conversely no need to give short shrift to his more Italianate works (hence the deference given to Rheingold and Dutchman);
> 2. I like to think of W's operas as follows: two religious (aforementioned); two having to do with singing contests (which as a songwriter I am partial to); two featuring the sea; and the Ring (the two earlier and more accessible ones and the two later more ponderous ones;
> 3. I can only hope that my considerations of theme (i.e., what the operas are about) are not overshadowing proper consideration of sheer musicality -- at the moment I don't think so but am open to criticism on that score...


Surely Tannhäuser is a more overtly religious work than Lohengrin? And do the grail rituals really weigh down the incredibly sublime Act II of Parsifal so heavy as to land on the lowest rung?


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I wonder what sort of reception Parsifal would get if it was first composed in our day and age, say, in 2013.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal
Das Rheingold
Tannhäuser
Götterdämmerung
Die Walküre
Die Meistersinger von Nürnburg
Siegfried
Der Fliegende Holländer
Lohengrin

The only reason Lohengrin is lowest for me is that it is the one which I am least familiar with.


----------



## Art Rock

Hors concours: Der Ring der Nibelungen.
Essential: Lohengrin, Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde.
Important: Der fliegende Hollaender, Tannhaeuser.
Good to have: Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg.
Not required: Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot, Rienzi.


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## schigolch

My list of favourites:


1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Lohengrin
3. Parsifal
4. Die Walküre
5. Der Fliegende Holländer
6. Tannhäuser
7. Das Rheingold
8. Götterdämmerung
9. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
10. Siegfried


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## Zingo

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Götterdämmerung
3. Lohengrin
4. Die Walküre
5. Siegfried
6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
7. Der Fliegende Holländer
8. Tannhäuser
9. Das Rheingold
10. Parsifal


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## Zabirilog

10. Der Fliegende Holländer
9. Lohengrin
8. Das Rheingold
7. Tannhäuser
6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
5. Tristan und Isolde
4. Parsifal
3. Die Walküre
It has so many fantastic things, in the music and in the drama.
2. Götterdämmerung
With good singers and production, it can be even greater than Siegfried, but for some reasons Siegfried is better in my opinion.
1. Siegfried
I'm a Siegfried crazy maybe because it was the first Wagner I ever saw... And the third act is something what I can't explain.


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## gellio

1. Der Ring
(a) Siegfried
(b) Rheingold
(c) Gotterdammerung
(d) Walkure
2. Tristan 
3. Lohengrin
4. Meistersinger
5. Tannhauser
6. Dutchman

Still trying to explore Parsifal. The music is simply sublime, but I get bored fast. Hopefully, that will change. I am obsessed with The Ring, and Siegfried is my favorite part. It's got all the themes of The Ring, it's so fairytale like, and it's the only one that ends on a happy note. Walkure has been a huge struggle for me. ACT III is one of my favorite parts of the whole Ring, but ACT I is boring (save the end) and ACT II I cannot make it through. Hopefully, that will change with time. Yet, it's been 13 years since my first Ring


----------



## HumphreyAppleby

1. _Tristan und Isolde_
2. _Parsifal_

The rest are all good, and rate about the same to me. Although I don't know _Tannhauser_ that well... I heard the overture in a concert recently, and I thought it was pretty empty and quite frankly bad. Perhaps that had something to do with the performance, but the orchestra played the other pieces very well indeed. I was surprised that the man who wrote _Tristan_ wrote that. Coincidentally, my two favorites are also Puccini's favorites, and he's my favorite opera composer... Those top two of Wagner's, though, are fantastic indeed.


----------



## quack

I have to put a word in for _Die Feen_. I've heard _Das Liebesverbot_ as well as much as I can stand of _Rienzi_ and I thought they well deserved their place at the bottom of the barrel, but _Die Feen_ is quite an attractive and worthy first effort. It is fairly simple sounding and obviously has a debt to his influences but it doesn't sound as much like an over ambitious mistake like the other two.


----------



## mountmccabe

Die Walküre
Parsifal
Götterdämmerung
Lohengrin
Der fliegende Holländer
Tristan und Isolde
Das Rheingold
Tannhäuser
Siegfried
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg

Right now I would say that I love the top 8 and that the top 3 are among my very favorite operas by anyone. Also I really need to spend more good time with Lohengrin, Tristan and Tannhauser. And based on the rankings by others, Siegfried. There is a lot to the opera and I recognize it is a great work but mostly I just don't like Wagner's hero!

And I will probably still give Meistersinger more time to reveal itself, especially if the Herheim production from Salzburg comes to the Met in the next couple seasons.


----------



## dgee

Dutchman is dull, Tannhauser is great fun but a bit silly, Lohengrin is less silly but still fun, I'll get back to you on Meistersinger, Parsifal is a masterpiece on a geological timescale but how often do you want to listen to it?, Ring cycle next (you could split them up but why?), and Tristan tops because it's maximum sexy


----------



## gellio

Siegfried is the bomb.


----------



## alan davis

1.Tristan and Isolde
2.Parsifal
3.Die Walkure
4.Gotterdammerung
5.Die Meistersinger
6.Das Rheingold
7.Siegfried
8.Tannhauser
9.Lohengrin
10.Der Fliegende
I have seen them all except Lohengrin and Tannhauser and these Wagner nights have been the pinnacle of my opera going.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

I hate the idea of rating such diverse works as my choice would vary on any given day. I don't mind rating recordings of such and finding the best even though that's kinda subjective BUT rating allows one to then decide which to buy or not bother buying and one needs them all like Mahler symphonies ;-)


----------



## Seattleoperafan

While I would enjoy seeing a good production of Parsifal, Tannhauser or Meistersinger, I doubt if I would ever listed to them in my car... my normal way of enjoying opera.
These all I would love to both see live and listen to over and over in my car:
1. Tristan
2. Gotterdammerung
3. Walkure
5. Siegfried
6. Lohengrin


----------



## expat

Same here. I listen to one Ring Cycle each month in the car. Lots of tweaking the volume...


----------



## stevederekson

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Lohengrin
3. Tannhäuser
4. Parsifal
5. Das Rheingold
6. Götterdämmerung
7. Die Walküre
8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Siegfried


----------



## Itullian

This is gonna be tough because I love them all....................

1 Gotterdammerung
2 Meistersinger
3 Walkure
4 Tristan
5 Lohengrin
6 Rheingold
7 Siegfried
8 Dutchman
9 Tannhauser
10 Parsifal

Subject to changes minute by minute 
Next?


----------



## Signor Crescendo

1.) _Lohengrin_. The Wagner opera that really grabbed me - Act I is excellent, full of good tunes, and "In fernem Land" is sublime. It also has two of Wagner's most sympathetic characters: Elsa and Telramund.

_Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_. Wagner's warmest and most human opera, but marred by Hans Sachs's rant, and the fact that Wagner's idea of humour is Beckmesser being bashed up by the whole town and then publicly humiliated. (And that's even without the vexed question of whether Beckmesser's Jewish.)

2.) _Tannhäuser_ (Dresden version). Moves briskly, no longueurs. Terrific music, too: has the Pilgrims' Chorus, the hymn to the evening star, the entrance of the guests, and the finales are all strong.

3.) _Der fliegende Holländer_. Lots of fun (and quite short!).

4.) _Der Ring_. Some extraordinary music, but it's also bombastic and long-winded. All those recapitulations of what the audience saw the night before! Imagine what Verdi could have done with the subject. (Or, better still, listen to Reyer.)

5.) Die Feen

6.) _Rienzi_. Heavy metal. A sprinkling of enjoyable music, but it's overblown and arguably proto-fascist.

7.) _Parsifal_. There are some lovely parts - the Transformation music, the jolly Act I finale, the Good Friday Music, "Nur eine Waffe taugt" - but all the stuff about blood, renunciation of the world, purity (sexual, racial, &c), guilt, sin, death, remorse, suffering, is pretty off-putting. I've seen it twice, and left thinking what a good composer Haydn was!

_Tristan und Isolde_. The underlying philosophical idea of the opera is a confusion between sex and death: Tristan and Isolde love each other so much they want to die (a sentiment shared by the audience), and tell each other this for four hours of orgasmic screeching, with a philosophical discussion of night and day and a coitus interruptus thrown in for good measure. 
Tristan demonstrates his love for Isolde by tearing open his wound and spurting blood all over the stage, much to the audience's disgust. This reveals far more about Richard Wagner than it does about Tristan and Isolde. Wagner was, in fact, the first notable musical emo.

I've only heard an abridged version of _Das Liebesverbot_. I like the overture (which is the most _un_Wagnerian tune ever, and could make for an interesting party game. "Guess the tune! What's this? Rossini! Auber! Nope: Wagner. What's this? The end of _Götterdämmerung_! No, it's the Act III finale of _La juive_.) And I want to hear the full finale.


----------



## Couchie

Signor Crescendo said:


> marred by Hans Sachs's rant, and the fact that Wagner's idea of humour is Beckmesser being bashed up by the whole town and then publicly humiliated. (And that's even without the vexed question of whether Beckmesser's Jewish.)
> 
> no longueurs
> 
> bombastic and long-winded
> 
> overblown and arguably proto-fascist
> 
> blood, renunciation of the world, purity (sexual, racial, &c), guilt, sin, death, remorse, suffering, is pretty off-putting.
> 
> they want to die (a sentiment shared by the audience)
> 
> blood all over the stage, much to the audience's disgust.
> 
> Wagner was, in fact, the first notable musical emo.


All this is what makes Wagner great.


----------



## Marsden

Signor Crescendo said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_. The underlying philosophical idea of the opera is a confusion between sex and death: Tristan and Isolde love each other so much they want to die (a sentiment shared by the audience), and tell each other this for four hours of orgasmic screeching, with a philosophical discussion of night and day and a coitus interruptus thrown in for good measure.
> Tristan demonstrates his love for Isolde by tearing open his wound and spurting blood all over the stage, much to the audience's disgust. This reveals far more about Richard Wagner than it does about Tristan and Isolde. Wagner was, in fact, the first notable musical emo.


Great opera is about the music, not the book, or even the stagecraft. Most opera stories are silly.

_Tristan _contains possibly the greatest music yet devised. I'm still working on the rest of my list


----------



## Belowpar

I had thought of starting this very thread, how convenient.

But this is a discussion group and all I'm saying is I agree 100% with one of these comments.



dgee said:


> Dutchman is dull





Signor Crescendo said:


> 3.) _Der fliegende Holländer_. Lots of fun (and quite short!).


----------



## Celloman

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Der Ring des Nibelungen
_a. Die Walkure
b. Siegfried
c. Gotterdammerung
d. Das Rheingold_
3. Parsifal
4. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
5. Lohengrin
6. Der fliegende Hollander
7. Tannhauser

I haven't heard any of the earlier ones. I have heard that Die Feen is better than both Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi, so I would like to hear that opera at some point.


----------



## gardibolt

1. Das Rheingold
2. Siegfried
3. Die Walküre
4. Götterdämmerung
5. Tristan und Isolde
6. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
7. Parsifal
8. Der Fliegende Holländer
9. Lohengrin
10. Tannhäuser

My experience with Tannhäuser is limited, but the ones I've heard have all been insufferably dull. It's way below the other nine in my estimation. I have a definite sense that Wagner is groping towards what he would eventually become, but he's nowhere near there yet.


----------



## The Conte

1. Der Ring
a) Goetterdaemerung
b) Die Walkuere
c) Das Rheingold
d) Siegfried
5. Tristan und Isolde
6. Die Meistersinger
7. Parsifal
8. Tannhaeuser
9. Lohengrin
10. Der Fligende Hollander

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> 1. Der Ring
> a) Goetterdaemerung
> b) Die Walkuere
> c) Das Rheingold
> d) Siegfried
> 5. Tristan und Isolde
> 6. Die Meistersinger
> 7. Parsifal
> 8. Tannhaeuser
> 9. Lohengrin
> 10. Der Fligende Hollander
> 
> N.


My Ring order would be a,d,b,c and the rest as you have them!


----------



## Woodduck

How have I missed this thread so far? Inattentive, I guess.

1. _Parsifal_. My favorite opera by anyone. Esoteric, faux-pious, morbid, decadent, sexist, racist, too long, too slow...? _Nonsense!_ It may be these things to those who don't understand it, don't want to, don't respond to Wagner's musical language, or are looking for reasons to beat up on the composer. To those who "get it," there is nothing in all of art to touch it in its visionary sublimity. As Nietzsche, who had a self-imposed obligation to hate _Parsifal_, said, its music "cuts through the soul like a knife." The subtlest harmonically and orchestrally, the most perfectly calculated dramatically, of all Wagner's opera, it left me speechless at 15 and altered my whole sense of life and of the capacity of music to speak the unspeakable. I love it no less 50 years later.

2. _Tristan und Isolde._ I can't say anything about this mind-boggling eruption of genius that hasn't been said a million times. I'll let Verdi speak for me: "The work which arouses my greatest admiration is _Tristan._ The giant structure fills me time and time again with astonishment and awe, and I still cannot quite comprehend that it was conceived and written by a human being. I consider the second act, in its wealth of musical invention, in tenderness and sensuality of musical expression and its inspired orchestration, to be one of the finest creations that ever issued from a human mind." That will do.

3. _Die Walkure._ After the wheeling and dealing of gods and dwarves in _Rheingold_, Wagner was inspired by the theme of love - of Siegmund and Sieglinde, of Wotan and Brunnhilde - to compose some of his most warmly glowing, passionate music. I find the final act of this opera one of his noblest creations, and unlike some am not at all bored by Wotan's self-analytical monologue in Act 2 - assuming an intelligent baritone alert to its subtleties.

4. _Lohengrin_. What gorgeous music this opera contains! Beautifully sung and excitingly conducted, it almost makes me wish Wagner had written another Romantic opera before moving on to his revolutionary ideas of music drama. Ortrud and Telramund are as brilliant a pair of villains as can be found in opera. And the prelude is a vision too exquisite for words.

5. _Gotterdammerung._ A Titan among operas, a dark and sweeping vision of Teutonic paganism, filled with the sense of impending catastrophe, and a fitting conclusion to the _Ring_'s epic journey. Humans are crushed under the weight of forces too large for them to comprehend, yet humanity somehow gets the last hopeful word. Maybe Wagner was fooling himself - but then came Parsifal.

6._ Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg._ That Wagner came through the ordeal of _Tristan_ alive and was immediately able to give us Hans Sachs, Walther, Eva, and Beckmesser is something inexplicable. But he always could be depended upon to open up new musical worlds. The two works together - united in their oppositeness - were the center point in his life and work and made the rest possible.

7. _Siegfried._ Yes, the characters can be hard to identify with, but that is partly our civilized prejudice. This is forest and mountain music, music of dwarves and dragons and birds and fire, and full of childlike fear and wonder. Wagner was wise to take time out for _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_; Act 3 of _Siegfried_ is ablaze with a sonorous ecstasy we've never heard the like of except in the Venusberg music of the Paris _Tannhauser_.

8. _Das Rheingold._ Darkness is upon the face of the deep, a harmony of Eb rises out of nothingness, and a new musical world is born. Was there ever anything like Alberich and the Rhinemaidens? Wagner is sometimes said to lack humor, but of his comedies I find _Rheingold_ funnier than _Meistersinger_ in its sharp portrayal of human weakness and vice among subhumans and superhumans. Loge sees it clearly, watches the gods in their pomposity, listens to the childish complaints of the watersprites, and shrugs, knowing that eventually the whole lot will burn together.

9. _Der Fliegende Hollander._ The first great outburst of a unique imagination. We see the roiling sea, hear the wild wind, feel the salt spray, and the Dutchman steps off his ghostly ship and into our minds blown open by the elements. He is the dark subconscious to which Senta, surrounded by the prosaic world of spinning and gossip, is irresistibly drawn - the first ambassador from the wondrous Land of Night where Tristan and Isolde will sojourn as well.

10. _Tannhauser_. Something had to be in tenth place! I'm not feeling critical tonight, so I'll let it go without comment.


----------



## Marsden

Woodduck said:


> How have I missed this thread so far? Inattentive, I guess.


Thanks for your annotations Woodduck. I'll use them as a guide for my listening.

While Wagner is my favorite composer, I still have a lot to discover. And that's a great feeling!

Meanwhile, _contra _most in this thread, I still enjoy Tannhäuser 

But even I wouldn't put it in the same class as _Tristan_... Neat to see Verdi genuflecting at _Tristan's_ Act 2, since it's the terrible gravity of Act 3 that slays me. But the whole work; yes, hard to believe it was created by a human being.


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## Woodduck

Marsden said:


> Thanks for your annotations Woodduck. I'll use them as a guide for my listening.
> 
> While Wagner is my favorite composer, I still have a lot to discover. And that's a great feeling!
> 
> Meanwhile, _contra _most in this thread, I still enjoy Tannhäuser
> 
> But even I wouldn't put it in the same class as _Tristan_... Neat to see Verdi genuflecting at _Tristan's_ Act 2, since it's the terrible gravity of Act 3 that slays me. But the whole work; yes, hard to believe it was created by a human being.


It seems that Verdi was thinking a lot about Wagner and studying his works in his last years. That quote came from an interview he gave in 1899, when his composing career was over, and in it he had other admiring things to say. While he was actively composing, and especially while Wagner was still living, he must have felt a need to keep Wagner at arm's length, but we know he was always interested, and his own work shows some carefully integrated influences. There exists a score he owned of _Lohengrin_ with marginal notes he made during a performance - comments ranging from "beautiful" to "sometimes one is bored." The final words about _Tristan_ in that interview were "wonderful...wonderful...wonderful."

It would have been interesting to have Wagner's reaction to _Falstaff_ had he lived to hear it.


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## Belowpar

This thread makes the perfect argument that if you are going to have a vote on a Most Recommended Opera List , it should have the 4 Opera's that make up the Ring cycle as separate entries.


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## Woodduck

Belowpar said:


> This thread makes me believe if you are going to have a vote on a Most Recommended Opera List , it should have the 4 Opera's that make up the Ring cycle as separate entries.


Agree totally. Each has a distinct character, and I think most people have distinct preferences among them and often listen to them individually. It's hard to set aside 15 hours, after all.


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## Becca

Woodduck said:


> Agree totally. Each has a distinct character, and I think most people have distinct preferences among them and often listen to them individually. It's hard to set aside 15 hours, after all.


Definitely true for me
Rheingold and Gotterdammerung in almost a tie
Not sure about ranking Walkure and Siegried ... Walkure is definitely up there if I only consider act 1 but I still find act 2 very tedious.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> How have I missed this thread so far? Inattentive, I guess.
> 
> 1. _Parsifal_. My favorite opera by anyone. Esoteric, faux-pious, morbid, decadent, sexist, racist, too long, too slow...? _Nonsense!_ It may be these things to those who don't understand it, don't want to, don't respond to Wagner's musical language, or are looking for reasons to beat up on the composer. To those who "get it," there is nothing in all of art to touch it in its visionary sublimity. As Nietzsche, who had a self-imposed obligation to hate _Parsifal_, said, its music "cuts through the soul like a knife." The subtlest harmonically and orchestrally, the most perfectly calculated dramatically, of all Wagner's opera, it left me speechless at 15 and altered my whole sense of life and of the capacity of music to speak the unspeakable. I love it no less 50 years later.
> 
> 2. _Tristan und Isolde._ I can't say anything about this mind-boggling eruption of genius that hasn't been said a million times. I'll let Verdi speak for me: "The work which arouses my greatest admiration is _Tristan._ The giant structure fills me time and time again with astonishment and awe, and I still cannot quite comprehend that it was conceived and written by a human being. I consider the second act, in its wealth of musical invention, in tenderness and sensuality of musical expression and its inspired orchestration, to be one of the finest creations that ever issued from a human mind." That will do.
> 
> 3. _Die Walkure._ After the wheeling and dealing of gods and dwarves in _Rheingold_, Wagner was inspired by the theme of love - of Siegmund and Sieglinde, of Wotan and Brunnhilde - to compose some of his most warmly glowing, passionate music. I find the final act of this opera one of his noblest creations, and unlike some am not at all bored by Wotan's self-analytical monologue in Act 2 - assuming an intelligent baritone alert to its subtleties.
> 
> 4. _Lohengrin_. What gorgeous music this opera contains! Beautifully sung and excitingly conducted, it almost makes me wish Wagner had written another Romantic opera before moving on to his revolutionary ideas of music drama. Ortrud and Telramund are as brilliant a pair of villains as can be found in opera. And the prelude is a vision too exquisite for words.
> 
> 5. _Gotterdammerung._ A Titan among operas, a dark and sweeping vision of Teutonic paganism, filled with the sense of impending catastrophe, and a fitting conclusion to the _Ring_'s epic journey. Humans are crushed under the weight of forces too large for them to comprehend, yet humanity somehow gets the last hopeful word. Maybe Wagner was fooling himself - but then came Parsifal.
> 
> 6._ Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg._ That Wagner came through the ordeal of _Tristan_ alive and was immediately able to give us Hans Sachs, Walther, Eva, and Beckmesser is something inexplicable. But he always could be depended upon to open up new musical worlds. The two works together - united in their oppositeness - were the center point in his life and work and made the rest possible.
> 
> 7. _Siegfried._ Yes, the characters can be hard to identify with, but that is partly our civilized prejudice. This is forest and mountain music, music of dwarves and dragons and birds and fire, and full of childlike fear and wonder. Wagner was wise to take time out for _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_; Act 3 of _Siegfried_ is ablaze with a sonorous ecstasy we've never heard the like of except in the Venusberg music of the Paris _Tannhauser_.
> 
> 8. _Das Rheingold._ Darkness is upon the face of the deep, a harmony of Eb rises out of nothingness, and a new musical world is born. Was there ever anything like Alberich and the Rhinemaidens? Wagner is sometimes said to lack humor, but of his comedies I find _Rheingold_ funnier than _Meistersinger_ in its sharp portrayal of human weakness and vice among subhumans and superhumans. Loge sees it clearly, watches the gods in their pomposity, listens to the childish complaints of the watersprites, and shrugs, knowing that eventually the whole lot will burn together.
> 
> 9. _Der Fliegende Hollander._ The first great outburst of a unique imagination. We see the roiling sea, hear the wild wind, feel the salt spray, and the Dutchman steps off his ghostly ship and into our minds blown open by the elements. He is the dark subconscious to which Senta, surrounded by the prosaic world of spinning and gossip, is irresistibly drawn - the first ambassador from the wondrous Land of Night where Tristan and Isolde will sojourn as well.
> 
> 10. _Tannhauser_. Something had to be in tenth place! I'm not feeling critical tonight, so I'll let it go without comment.


Thank goodness we have someone like you, Woodduck, who can actually be bothered articulating what some of us are thinking, but can't be bothered putting into words ourselves. Keep on keeping on!


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## Faustian

Belowpar said:


> This thread makes the perfect argument that if you are going to have a vote on a Most Recommended Opera List , it should have the 4 Opera's that make up the Ring cycle as separate entries.


But you know its interesting. I have little doubt that if the four operas were voted on individually, none of them would have come close to claiming the top position; when treated as a singular work of art, they do. I think its its a situation where each of the individual operas are elevated by being a part of the whole, they each take on that much more weight and significance and can't help but feel a little incomplete on their own.

As much as I am moved, stirred, challenged by all of Wagner's operas, my favorite remains Die Meistersinger. A comedy, a fairy tale, a metaphor for the connections between life and art: I am awestruck at the way that Wagner shows how in the end the restraint, balance, sanity, harmony and health of art properly achieved represent in the work the restraint, balance, sanity, harmony and health of real human goodness, tempered by discipline to deal with the chances and changes of a whole lifetime.

I would rank the others like this:

2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Parsifal
5. Die Walküre
6. Siegfried
7. Das Rheingold
8. Lohengrin
9. Der fliegende Holländer
10. Tannhäuser


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## Itullian

Which ever one I'm listening to, that's the one I'm in awe of.


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## howlingfantods

I'll try to follow Woodduck's example and actually put down a thought or two about each opera.

1. Parsifal - the drama and the ideas contained within aren't great, but the quality of the music is so amazing, you can feel free to ignore the pseudo-religious paean to monk-ish asceticism written by the most voluptuous sensualist who ever lived and just listen to the unique combination of diatonic and extreme chromaticism of the score and sung parts. Nietzsche being right about the hypocrisy and hatefulness of Wagner the individual pouring through this libretto doesn't make this any less great to listen to. 

2. Meistersinger - This is like a drug -- just pure unadulterated joy. I could listen to Sachs messing with Beckmesser and the young couple while singing songs about making shoes for Eve everyday. 

3. Walkure - the peak of the Ring cycle, with many of the very greatest moments -- the love duet with the twins in Act 1, the Announcement of Death scene where Siegmund refuses eternal heroic life if it means abandoning Sieglinde, and the way that refusal infects Brunnhilde in defying Wotan's orders, the argument between Brunnhilde and Wotan and Wotan's farewell, the amazing orchestral setpieces with the Overtures and the Magic Fire Music. And Wotan falling to pieces in A2, which can be a boring slog with poor singers and conductors but can be riveting under the right ones and is really the heart of the cycle.

4. Tristan und Isolde - The fact that this astonishing work is only fourth on my list is pretty ridiculous but I just can't fit it above the other three. The most influential and most perfect of his dramas, and I first fell in love with Wagner's music through the Overture and the Liebestod.

5. Gotterdammerung - Another colossally great ending, with Siegfried's Funeral Music then the Brunnhilde Immolation. But before that, you get some great brooding and mysterious music from the Norns in the Prologue, the love duet with Siegfried and Brunnhilde and the Rhine Journey, Hagen's calling of the vassals. Little moments that I love are from the scene from Act 3 where Siegfried is recapping the third opera, with Hagen making jokes about Mime's death (which is honestly pretty cold when you recall it's his uncle) and Siegfried singing the Wood Bird's music.

6. Rheingold - Alberich pursuing the Rhinemaidens, the maidens doing what heartless hot girls do and mocking the ugly short dude, leading Alberich to get all emo and renounce love. It's like a news story about a teen shooter. Wotan trying to outwit the Giants, Loge's sarcastic wit, Alberich cursing the ring. My personal favorite parts are the orchestral setpieces, the Overture, the journey down to Nibelheim with the hammering anvils and the gods' entry into Valhalla. It doesn't hang together as a complete work but it's a collection of great moments.

7. Siegfried - the first half is a little monochromatic, with maybe an overlong recap of the first half of the Cycle with the riddle scene and the overall setup of the forging of Notung and the reintroduction of Alberich and Wotan's conflict. It opens up in the second half, with the forest murmurs music, the scenes with the woodbird's call and Siegfried's response, and Siegfried's discovery of the fire mountain and Brunnhilde's awakening and love duet.

8. Hollander - By a hair over Lohengrin. I love the Dutchman's desperation and anguish. Die Frist ist Um is an all time great aria by anyone and Senta's ballad is almost as good.

9. Lohengrin - Again, it seems sort of crazy that something I love so much should be so far down a list like this. Terrific opera with lots of lovely music.

10. Tannhauser - Also terrific with lots of lovely music, but is a little rough around the edges and sags in the middle. I'm ending my ranking as I started, with an opera with a nonsense message about the virtues of renouncing worldy pleasures written in the most voluptuous and sensuous music imaginable. Wagner was a weird dude and bad thinker but an astonishing composer.


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## Orfeo

Woodduck said:


> It seems that Verdi was thinking a lot about Wagner and studying his works in his last years. That quote came from an interview he gave in 1899, when his composing career was over, and in it he had other admiring things to say. While he was actively composing, and especially while Wagner was still living, he must have felt a need to keep Wagner at arm's length, but we know he was always interested, and his own work shows some carefully integrated influences. There exists a score he owned of _Lohengrin_ with marginal notes he made during a performance - comments ranging from "beautiful" to "sometimes one is bored." The final words about _Tristan_ in that interview were "wonderful...wonderful...wonderful."
> 
> It would have been interesting to have Wagner's reaction to _Falstaff_ had he lived to hear it.


I wonder what Wagner thought of Verdi and his music in general.


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## Faustian

howlingfantods said:


> I'll try to follow Woodduck's example and actually put down a thought or two about each opera.
> 
> 1. Parsifal - the drama and the ideas contained within aren't great, but the quality of the music is so amazing, you can feel free to ignore the pseudo-religious paean to monk-ish asceticism written by the most voluptuous sensualist who ever lived and just listen to the unique combination of diatonic and extreme chromaticism of the score and sung parts. Nietzsche being right about the hypocrisy and hatefulness of Wagner the individual pouring through this libretto doesn't make this any less great to listen to.


Hypocrisy and hatefulness pouring through the libretto? I get none of that. There's a lot more at work underneath the surface to all of Wagner's esoteric symbolism than you give credit for. To me the drama is an astounding reworking of the source materials Wagner was working with, and in Parsifal he wrote one last opera on the self that calls out to be redeemed, rescued, restored to wholeness using one of mankind's most enduring symbols: the holy grail.

To requote a post from Couchie earlier in the thread:

"Parsifal is one of those that I needed to read a coherent explanation of before I could "get" it. From Bryan Magee's _The Philosophy of Schopenhauer:_

Amfortas has a terrible wound of which he does not die, yet which never heals, with the result that he lives suspended in a permanent state of mortal agony. Despite this, as King of the order he is still required to carry out the religious ritual - the continued use of the grail to celebrate the Holy Feast - which is the order's raison d'etre. This duty pushes him each time to the limits of humiliation, mortification and suffering.

Over the years, knight after knight seeks to retrieve the situation by venturing forth to recover the spear, and with it Amfortas' release and the order's honour, but without exception they succumb to Klingsor's temptresses and never return. A prophecy emanating from the grail tells Amfortas that redemption will come only at the hands of an innocent whom compassion, not pre-existing knowledge (still less cleverness), has rendered understanding.

This is Parsifal. When he comes on the scene he is as ignorant and as lacking in compassion as a human being can well be: he has no idea who he is or where he comes from; he has allowed his mother to die by his sheer disregard for her loving concern for him; and he kills merely for something to do. Religious enactments have no meaning for him. When faced with the torture of Amfortas this does stir something in him, but he has no idea what it is.

Then Kundry attempts to seduce him. Her subtle arousal of his sexual awareness by associating herself with his mother brings home to him for the first time his responsibility for his mother's death. Then he experiences the full onslaught of sexual desire - and it is this, the rack of passion, that makes him realize what it is that has happened to Amfortas, and thus the nature of the wound. Further, it leads him to apprehend for the first time the condition of the whole of suffering mankind, the rack of unsatisfied willing on which it is endlessly stretched out - and hence to understand the compassion of a Christ for humanity at large - and hence to understand the significance of the religious ceremony he has witnessed.

Armed with these insights, he is enabled to withstand Kundry's temptations, and thus to regain the spear from Klingsor. With this he returns to Montsalvat and touches the wound of Amfortas - which at once heals, thereby releasing Amfortas from any further compulsion to live with his disgrace. The return of the spear to Montsalvat opens up a new era for the depleted, dishonoured and decaying order. Parsifal, succeeding Amfortas as its king, takes up with full consciousness the task of restoring it, and leading the religious ceremonies that express the purpose of its being.

People seem to be turned off by the religiosity, but at no point does Parsifal bow down and start praying to God. Redemption is achieved by understanding and compassion, not God's forgiveness. Wagner "uses" Christianity like he uses Norse mythology in the _Ring_ to tell a story more rooted in Schopenhauerian or Buddhist principles than Biblical ones. Per usual however Wagner is ambiguous enough so Christians can also interpret it to be a fundamentally Christian work if they so choose."

I also think Deryck Cooke makes some excellent points in his essay on the opera:

Seen from the point of view of our own time, its symbolism, on the face of it, presents a black-and-white conflict between sex, as an evil thing, and chastity, as a good thing. And so it would seem to recommend the sick view of certain religious sects, which has caused untold suffering and mental illness through the ages which we are still trying to eradicate today. Both sex and chastity, most of us believe, can be good or evil, according to the context in which either occurs, and to how far the people involved are aware of the consequences of both. So Parsifal would seem to be a difficult work to identify ourselves with -- the more so since it is by Wagner, of all people: he himself lived a full sexual life, he symbolized in Tristan und Isolde the transcendental value of sexual love, and he revealed in Die Meistersinger an affectionate fellow-feeling with the normal human situation -- two young people so much in love that they can hardly wait to get married.

Was it that in Parsifal, his last work, completed only a year before his death at the age of seventy, Wagner has changed his whole way of thinking? Scarcely, since thirty-seven years earlier he had presented, Tannhauser, a similar black-and-white symbolic conflict between sex and chastity. The answer to the problem is that the symbolism, like most symbolism, is not as simple as it looks, because Wagner, certainly in Parsifal, was treating the subject in a very special, confined way. After all, the sex in Parsifal actually _is_ evil, being pure sexual gratification without love, and without even any interest in the partner as a person; and the chastity in Parsifal actually _is_ good, being essential for a brotherhood devoted to a great spiritual task. There are no ordinary men or women in Parsifal, and so the whole vast middle ground of normal sexual love is simply omitted. That Wagner still recognized this middle ground as being there, and as a normal and natural thing, is evident when Gurnemanz turns Parsifal out of the Hall of the Grail at the end of Act One, with the words "A gander should look for a goose!" Since Parsifal, as it seems to him, is only a simple lad, and not the redeemer, "the innocent fool, enlightened through compassion" for whom the brotherhood have been waiting, he had better leave the Land of the Grail, rejoin the world of men and women, and get himself a wife.

In consequence, the evil sex in Parsifal is perhaps seen as the most vivid possible symbol of indiscriminate sensual gratification of any and every kind, and the fundamental theme of the work as the necessity, for those intent on fulfilling some great spiritual task, of renouncing such gratification as a side-tracker and destroyer (Klingsor and Kundry) of great purpose (Amfortas and Parsifal). Wagner's heart-searching music certainly confirms this, since what it expresses, in the most noble way, is purity of spirit, loss of purity, suffering, compassion, love, renunciation, and regeneration.

It may be argued, of course, that such noble ideas can only seem suspect, coming from a man who himself was hardly one to renounce sensual gratification, and that the work is a bad case of artistic insincerity. In fact, Wagner himself lends support to this point of view in a remarkable sentence he once wrote: "Mine is a highly susceptible, intense, voracious sensuality, which must somehow or other be flattered if my mind is to accomplish the agonizing labor of calling a non-existent world into being."

Nevertheless, we have to take into account together with this confession, a more famous remark of Wagner's, to the effect that, if he had not been an artist, the one thing he would have wanted to be was a saint, which was of course impossible for his _as_ an artist. Wagner realized his own spiritual limitations: he was driven by his musico-dramatic genius, and it was a sheer necessity for him that his "sensuality" should be "flattered", if he was to carry out the demands of that genius. To be a saint, he would have had to give up everything, even his art, and that he was simply unable to do. Perhaps we should be thankful that he _was_ unable, since he gave so much in the world of art.

Even so, why, in Parsifal, should he put forward the message that sensual gratification has to be renounced by those dedicated to a great spiritual task? The answer is that the question is based on the false premise that an artist should be capable of practicing what he preaches. Few men can do that: scarcely any priest would undertake to be capable of doing so, and an artist, not having undertaken the mission of a priest, is even less capable. Inside Wagner the artist, as he himself said, was a saint trying to get out: in his life, the saint never got out at all, but something like it did in his art, and above all in Parsifal. Wagner's artistic heart and ideals were in the right place, whatever he may have done in his everyday life.

In any case, we have to acknowledge that Wagner himself was engaged in a great spiritual task, the demands of which compelled him to go for long periods without sensual gratification. He did not regard his music-dramas as entertainment, even in the highest sense, nor are they: they are, in the broadest sense of the word, religious moralities -- profound artistic expressions of the conflict between the good (creative) and the evil (destructive) ways of life. He spent a quarter of a century working on The Ring, to put forward a truth which is still ignored by society today: that the pursuit of power is the root of all evil, and that love, or better, the renunciation of the material world, is the only good. Hence the resumption of the idea of renunciation, with more explicitly religious symbolism, in the work which followed, Parsifal. Wagner's music-dramas, it should not be forgotten involved an enormous amount of hard work, which took up much of his life. He had to write books working out the problems of the new kind of musical stage-work he was going to create; he had to read masses of myths and legends, and hammer these into shape as his librettos, or his "poems" as he called them; he had, of course, to compose, compose, compose, and to slave week in week out at the orchestration; he had to direct all the rehearsals and sometimes the performances; not to mention the building of a theater entirely suitable for their production. All this is summed up in his telling phrase "the agonizing labor of calling a non-existent world into being." During the large amount of time that he spent in this way, something of that saint inside Wagner was getting out in the shape of a dedicated artist pursuing perfection, in search of the truth, and simply having no time for sensual gratification. And the purity of the music is the proof of this, for music cannot tell a lie.



> 10. Tannhauser - Also terrific with lots of lovely music, but is a little rough around the edges and sags in the middle. I'm ending my ranking as I started, with an opera with a nonsense message about the virtues of renouncing worldy pleasures written in the most voluptuous and sensuous music imaginable. Wagner was a weird dude and bad thinker but an astonishing composer.


Is it really such a nonsense message about "the virtues of renouncing worldy pleasures"? I would suggest that like Parsifal, Wagner isn't working on such a simplistic level here, and that Tannhauser is not a dramatization of the victory of sacred over profane, of spirit over flesh, of Christianity over paganism. It is a celebration of a synthesis of those opposites, the healing of a soul torn between two worlds.


----------



## Woodduck

Faustian said:


> Hypocrisy and hatefulness pouring through the libretto? I get none of that. There's a lot more at work underneath the surface to all of Wagner's esoteric symbolism than you give credit for. To me the drama is an astounding reworking of the source materials Wagner was working with, and in Parsifal he wrote one last opera on the self that calls out to be redeemed, rescued, restored to wholeness using one of mankind's most enduring symbols: the holy grail.
> 
> Is [Tannhauser] really such a nonsense message about "the virtues of renouncing worldy pleasures"? I would suggest that like Parsifal, Wagner isn't working on such a simplistic level here, and that Tannhauser is not a dramatization of the victory of sacred over profane, of spirit over flesh, of Christianity over paganism. It is *a celebration of a synthesis of those opposites*, the healing of a soul torn between two worlds.


I think you're right about both of these works, Faustian. _Tannhauser_, in retrospect, looks like a trial run for _Parsifal_. Its sexual imagery is still presented rather crudely, though, with Venus and Elisabeth the apparent opposites between which Tannhauser must choose, while the sexual imagery in _Parsifal_, embodied by Kundry and by the Grail and Spear, is much more complex. _Parsifal_'s symbolism is difficult to grasp in its deeper meanings, but _Tannhauser_ looks at a superficial glance like a simple victory of piety over sensuality. This is deceiving. Elisabeth is not an image of chastity but a healthy, passionate young woman, and it's because she is that she can save Tannhauser; he really loves her, and his love is not platonic. Simple religiosity, as represented by the cruel Pope's condemnation, loses in the end as surely as does Venus. I don't think Wagner gets this across as clearly as he might, but we ought at least to suspect that he is not actually going to write an opera in praise of celibacy!

The irony is that in _Parsifal_ he appears to be doing precisely that, with the "good guys" of the Grail order renouncing sex, the "bad guy" Klingsor offering them sex as the ultimate temptation, and the hero winning by seeming to choose the former over the latter. But in this strange allegory there is far, far more going on beneath the surface than we find in _Tannhauser_. Things in _Tannhauser_ are pretty much what they seem to be if you're paying close attention and willing to think a little. But things in _Parsifal_ are not as the story's outward events would have us believe, and we have to live with this work, and above all to listen to its uniquely expressive music - in which all its ambiguities are plumbed to the uttermost - to begin to penetrate its secrets.

I differ with those who take the goodness of the Grail's holy order, and the fundamental oppositeness of Titurel and Klingsor, at face value. Wagner was not into holy orders, and had nothing good to say about institutional religion. One of his most famous statements, made around the time of _Parsifal_ in his essay "Religion and Art," was: "One might say that where religion becomes artificial, it is reserved for art to save the spirit of religion by recognising the figurative value of the mythic symbols which the former would have us believe in their literal sense, and revealing their deep and hidden truth through an ideal representation." I see _Parsifal_ as a successor to the _Ring_ in showing the necessity of breaking the corrupting stranglehold of power as represented by Wotan and Titurel, and as a successor to _Die Meistersinger_ in being an allegory of spiritual renewal through the supplanting of deadening formalism, legalism, and institutional control, with the ultimate goal not of triumph but of reintegration. That Wagner presents this as a fantastic tale whose pivotal situation is the sexual act, and whose central symbols, the Holy Grail and the Holy Spear, are archetypal images of male and female sexuality, is an artistic coup that can only be described as Wagnerian!


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## howlingfantods

Yeah, I'm aware that Wagner was trying for some kind of synthesis of Schopenhauer and Buddhism in Parsifal. I don't think he really succeeded in putting together a successful drama in this attempt, but he does put together a workable narrative with emotional states and some kind of logical thread that acts as scaffolding for some of the most rapturous and magical music ever written. 

But I didn't mean to imply that Parsifal's libretto taken in itself is evidence of hypocrisy and hatefulness. Rather, that Wagner being the person he was (antisemite nativist who likes to have affairs with his friends' and supporters' wives and is so addicted to his worldly pleasures that he spends himself to insolvency) makes particularly acute the absurdity and hypocrisy of moralizing sermons having anything to do with conflicts of the spirit over flesh, since there's no indication from any part of his life that indicates that he ever fought that conflict himself.

Also, I have no trouble with religious content per se. Many of my favorite works of art are religious. It's the insincerity and falseness of Wagner of all people cloaking himself in religion that I find ludicrous.

Of course, all that said, still my favorite composer. Bad man, bad thinker, great great composer.


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## Barbebleu

With regard to the last three posts - Mmm!!(Strokes imaginary goatee in a thoughtful manner!)


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## Faustian

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, I'm aware that Wagner was trying for some kind of synthesis of Schopenhauer and Buddhism in Parsifal. I don't think he really succeeded in putting together a successful drama in this attempt, but he does put together a workable narrative with emotional states and some kind of logical thread that acts as scaffolding for some of the most rapturous and magical music ever written.
> 
> But I didn't mean to imply that Parsifal's libretto taken in itself is evidence of hypocrisy and hatefulness. Rather, that Wagner being the person he was (antisemite nativist who likes to have affairs with his friends' and supporters' wives and is so addicted to his worldly pleasures that he spends himself to insolvency) makes particularly acute the absurdity and hypocrisy of moralizing sermons having anything to do with conflicts of the spirit over flesh, since there's no indication from any part of his life that indicates that he ever fought that conflict himself.
> 
> Also, I have no trouble with religious content per se. Many of my favorite works of art are religious. It's the insincerity and falseness of Wagner of all people cloaking himself in religion that I find ludicrous.
> 
> Of course, all that said, still my favorite composer. Bad man, bad thinker, great great composer.


I think the entire matter is a lot more complicated than that, and the Deryck Cooke article I posted adresses a lot of this. I agree with his points and overall conclusions on the matter.


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, I'm aware that Wagner was trying for some kind of synthesis of Schopenhauer and Buddhism in Parsifal. I don't think he really succeeded in putting together a successful drama in this attempt, but he does put together a workable narrative with emotional states and some kind of logical thread that acts as scaffolding for some of the most rapturous and magical music ever written.
> 
> But I didn't mean to imply that Parsifal's libretto taken in itself is evidence of hypocrisy and hatefulness. Rather, that Wagner being the person he was (antisemite nativist who likes to have affairs with his friends' and supporters' wives and is so addicted to his worldly pleasures that he spends himself to insolvency) makes particularly acute the absurdity and hypocrisy of moralizing sermons having anything to do with conflicts of the spirit over flesh, since there's no indication from any part of his life that indicates that he ever fought that conflict himself.
> 
> Also, I have no trouble with religious content per se. Many of my favorite works of art are religious. It's the insincerity and falseness of Wagner of all people cloaking himself in religion that I find ludicrous.
> 
> Of course, all that said, still my favorite composer. Bad man, bad thinker, great great composer.


Respectfully, I must agree with Faustian's statement that "the entire matter is a lot more complicated than that." Both the man Wagner and his works can be viewed from many perspectives and at various levels of complexity and depth - rather like life itself! Let me consider a few of your remarks, with no pretense of reaching the end of any of the issues they raise.

I'm aware that Wagner was trying for some kind of synthesis of Schopenhauer and Buddhism in Parsifal.
What Wagner is trying for in _Parsifal_ is not a synthesis of ideologies - Buddhist, Christian, whatever - although several such do provide ideas and symbols for him to use in his own way, as they do in all his work. The work really has to stand as an expression of human qualities, emotions, and aspirations, and Wagner's oft-repeated statements about his dramas conveying their essential meaning musically, not ideologically, should be kept in mind. It's easy to think of his operas as didactic, given his own penchant for philosophizing and his characters' penchant for reflective monologues, but his stage works are fundamentally explorations of spiritual states, not expositions of ideas. People who try to view _Parsifal_ through an ideological lens are always getting into trouble and wandering off into strange and often pernicious theories. _Parsifal_ is a myth, and has to be understood, as it was created, by the feelings first and only then by the mind.

I don't think he really succeeded in putting together a successful drama in this attempt, but he does put together a workable narrative with emotional states and some kind of logical thread that acts as scaffolding for some of the most rapturous and magical music ever written. 

_Parsifal_'s drama probably will not succeed for you until that rapturous and magical music has convinced you of its own logic. Wagner called _Tristan_ "deeds of music made visible," and that applies equally to _Parsifal._ Neither opera has anything in common with the "well-made play," or its operatic equivalent in Puccini. The Wagnerian music drama is a genre of his own creation. Undoubtedly his theater, where "time becomes space," won't be for everyone. As Gurnemanz explains, "no earthly path leads to it, and none could tread it whom the Grail itself had not guided."

Wagner being the person he was (antisemite nativist who likes to have affairs with his friends' and supporters' wives and is so addicted to his worldly pleasures that he spends himself to insolvency) makes particularly acute the absurdity and hypocrisy of moralizing sermons having anything to do with conflicts of the spirit over flesh, since there's no indication from any part of his life that indicates that he ever fought that conflict himself.

It has alway been my feeling that the unconventional and dramatic aspects of Wagner's life makes him too easy a target for simplistic moralizing and caricature. Wagner was a complex man with complex views who wrote complex prose on every sort of topic (nine volumes of it collected!) and produced probably the most complex artistic creations ever conceived by a human mind. I'm not going to defend any of his actions or views, but I am going to suggest that we cannot know what this unbelievably endowed person experienced in the world. We know a great deal about Wagner, but we cannot come close to knowing what it was like to _be_ Wagner and to have lived a life that made it possible for him to do what he did. I would venture to say that, as it is with his works, so it is with the man: there is always more to understand, and more than we _can_ understand.

It's the insincerity and falseness of Wagner of all people cloaking himself in religion that I find ludicrous.

I don't think Wagner, as an artist, ever cloaked himself in anything. However outrageous and inconsistent his personal behavior or his ideas may have been, his works have the consistency and conviction of true belief. I believe he meant every word and - even more to the point - every note he wrote. _Parsifal_ is not a pretense at religion, but an examination and a reframing in personal terms of some of its symbols and themes. At heart it is no more - but also no less - a religious work than _Tristan_, the _Ring_, or even _Die Meistersinger_. Wagner had planned his last opera far in advance of writing it; in fact, most of his works underwent gestations of many years, even decades, and were written when he felt ready to tackle them at last. Seen as a logical continuation and outgrowth of his previous work, exhibiting transformations of characters and situations and themes he dealt with in every major work throughout his career, it is a magnificent synthesis, not of religions and ideologies, but of the composer's inner experience, presented in symbolic terms and with a level of artistic mastery and maturity that only an old genius could attain.

Even if I knew nothing about Wagner from his letters, his essays, his conversations, and his single-minded, lifelong struggle to realize the impossible dreams embodied in his works, I would be compelled by the sheer profundity and power of his music to believe that, at least during the strenuous process of bringing those works into being, he was seeking and expressing the truth as he conceived it. If the things he seemed to be saying in his work sometimes seemed inconsistent with his actions or the events of his life, he would be far from unique in failing to solve the impossible problem imposed by nature on the visionary artist: that of living simultaneously in two worlds which too often have painfully little in common.


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## Roland

Every time I read a Wooduck post regarding Wagner and his music, I am inspired to try listening with greater attention to music that I already love--but I know that Wooduck loves even more. Thank you, Wooduck for taking the time to write so well about your lifelong passion for this wondrous music.


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## Woodduck

Roland said:


> Every time I read a Wooduck post regarding Wagner and his music, I am inspired to try listening with greater attention to music that I already love--but I know that Wooduck loves even more. Thank you, Wooduck for taking the time to write so well about your lifelong passion for this wondrous music.


Thanks for that kind remark. The great thing about Wagner is that there's always more to learn. I've been thinking about his works for fifty years and I'm still seeing new angles and being struck by new realizations. It's a pleasure to share this endless adventure with others.


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## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> I'll try to follow Woodduck's example and actually put down a thought or two about each opera.
> 
> 1. Parsifal - the drama and the ideas contained within aren't great, but the quality of the music is so amazing, you can feel free to ignore the pseudo-religious paean to monk-ish asceticism written by the most voluptuous sensualist who ever lived and just listen to the unique combination of diatonic and extreme chromaticism of the score and sung parts. Nietzsche being right about the hypocrisy and hatefulness of Wagner the individual pouring through this libretto doesn't make this any less great to listen to.


Why I tend to listen to Parsifal without the libretto. It seems more acceptable that way ad there's a lot of bad faith in an opera that celebrates asceticism through music of extraordinary voluptuous beauty. Pain has never appeared more delicious and neither has hatred been so beguilingly packaged. Nietzsche was appalled by it: "a work of malice, ....of vindictiveness......an outrage on morality." Interesting that the world's great sensualist should have made an opera celebrating asceticism. That's apart from other distasteful elements many people see in the work. If only the music wasn't so beguiling!


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> It has alway been my feeling that the unconventional and dramatic aspects of Wagner's life makes him too easy a target for simplistic moralizing and caricature. Wagner was a complex man with complex views who wrote complex prose on every sort of topic (nine volumes of it collected!) and produced probably the most complex artistic creations ever conceived by a human mind. I'm not going to defend any of his actions or views, but I am going to suggest that we cannot know what this unbelievably endowed person experienced in the world. We know a great deal about Wagner, but we cannot come close to knowing what it was like to _be_ Wagner and to have lived a life that made it possible for him to do what he did. I would venture to say that, as it is with his works, so it is with the man: there is always more to understand, and more than we _can_ understand.


Because a man is highly talented why should we make allowances for his obnoxious views? This view that genius excuses everything (which Wagner had of himself) doesn't mean we should make allowance for his morality or lack of it. We don't apply it to anyone else. Recently a Nobel winning scientist expressed so0me unfortunate views about women and was forced to resign his post. No-one took into account his scientific genius. Why should we do the same for composers?


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## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Because a man is highly talented why should we make allowances for his obnoxious views? This view that genius excuses everything (which Wagner had of himself) doesn't mean we should make allowance for his morality of lack of it. We don't apply it to anyone else. Recently a Nobel winning scientist expressed so0me unfortunate views about women and was forced to resign his post. No-one took into account his scientific genius. Why should we do the same for composers?


A bit disingenuous don't you think to mention the scientist. There is a lot more to that story than meets the eye and I think he was treated extraordinarily unfairly. The views and morality of those who lived a century and a half ago can't be compared to modern thinking. The past is another country and we can't get a visa to visit it. Listen to the message, not the messenger.


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## Faustian

DavidA said:


> Because a man is highly talented why should we make allowances for his obnoxious views? This view that genius excuses everything (which Wagner had of himself) doesn't mean we should make allowance for his morality or lack of it. We don't apply it to anyone else. Recently a Nobel winning scientist expressed so0me unfortunate views about women and was forced to resign his post. No-one took into account his scientific genius. Why should we do the same for composers?


But no one is excusing Wagner's views or actions. This scientist may have been forced to resign his post as consequences for making some embarrassing comments, but people aren't conflating his personal opinions with his scientific findings.

Wagner not only faced backlash in his own time for his prejudices, but his name and legacy have been forever scarred by them as well. How much more accountable can we make him?


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## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> A bit disingenuous don't you think to mention the scientist. There is a lot more to that story than meets the eye and I think he was treated extraordinarily unfairly. The views and morality of those who lived a century and a half ago can't be compared to modern thinking. The past is another country and we can't get a visa to visit it. Listen to the message, not the messenger.


the fact is his comments were mild besides Wagner's racist outbursts! You are again falling into the trap of making excuses for the man's behaviour.


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## DavidA

Faustian said:


> But no one is excusing Wagner's views or actions. This scientist may have been forced to resign his post as consequences for making some embarrassing comments, but people aren't conflating his personal opinions with his scientific findings.
> 
> Wagner not only faced backlash in his own time for his prejudices, but his name and legacy have been forever scarred by them as well. How much more accountable can we make him?


I have no problem with that. It's when people try to excuse him that I resist.


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## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> the fact is his comments were mild besides Wagner's racist outbursts! You are again falling into the trap of making excuses for the man's behaviour.


I don't recall making any comments on his behaviour far less excuses. I believe my comment was aimed at those who occupy the past in general and not Wagner specifically. I have the same views on his thoughts and actions as I have on the thoughts and actions of, say, Genghis Khan. i.e. none at all.


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## Faustian

DavidA said:


> I have no problem with that. It's when people try to excuse him that I resist.


What you seem to be interpreting as people "excusing" him I see as people valuing his art work for what it is, on its own merits, and not letting his personal behavior cloud their judgement of it.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Why I tend to listen to Parsifal without the libretto. It seems more acceptable that way ad there's a lot of bad faith in an opera that celebrates asceticism through music of extraordinary voluptuous beauty. Pain has never appeared more delicious and neither has hatred been so beguilingly packaged. Nietzsche was appalled by it: "a work of malice, ....of vindictiveness......an outrage on morality." Interesting that the world's great sensualist should have made an opera celebrating asceticism. That's apart from other distasteful elements many people see in the work. If only the music wasn't so beguiling!


Parsifal is, notoriously and almost self-evidently, a difficult work to understand. Anyone offering an interpretation of it, particularly at this point in time, ought to take responsibility for his views and offer to support them. Doing so may require taking other views, of which there are many, into account. It really isn't good enough to parrot Nietzsche or anyone else, including one's own highly repetitive posts on the subject.

We can thank Nietzsche for lending his prestige to the view that _Parsifal_ "celebrates asceticism." At the same time he wrote of Wagner "prostrating himself at the foot of the cross." In the century and a half since, we've been treated to a procession of views of this opera which fail to take account of one aspect or another of its highly suggestive symbolism and attribute every sort of fantastic and pernicious intention to its composer. "Asceticism" is actually one of the more benign and traditional of these misconceptions, and has superficial support in the events of the opera's plot. The assumption that Wagner's use of sexual symbolism in the work amounts to a denunciation of sex and a recommendation of celibacy, however, does not survive examination. If we think it's absurd that a "great sensualist" should compose a strange and magical work of "voluptuous" beauty which appears to preach that sensuality is evil, it should be obvious that the first thing we ought to do is look very closely at the work to ascertain whether all is, in fact, as it appears.

It's an old saw that _Parsifal_ is an absurd or pernicious story that just happens to be expressed through sublime music. This is really just another version of the common remark that it seems impossible that a horrible person like Wagner could have written some of the most magnificent music ever composed (which in turn reflects Salieri's astonished indignation that the divine gift of greatness should have been bestowed on a person such as Mozart and not on his own distinguished and respected self). But the perception that the gods made some sort of mistake in their apportionment of gifts entails a superficial view of both the artist and his work.

Wagner always insisted that the deepest meanings of his works were to be apprehended through his music: "deeds of music made visible" is how he described _Tristan_. It applies equally well to _Parsifal_, which, far more than _Tristan_, takes place in a mythical dimension where everything represents - _re-presents_ - something, nothing is merely what it appears to be, and common everyday perceptions are turned upside down. _Parsifal_ is, as a friend of mine says, a "dream." And if we're to understand its symbols with anything approaching clarity, it is a fundamental misunderstanding of Wagner to assume that his music and his drama do not flow from the same deep source in him, and that he could compose an opera in which the meaning of the music and the meaning of the drama were fundamentally opposed.

I've written an enormous amount about the symbolism of _Parsifal_ under other threads in this forum - a labor of love, but one which it exhausts me even to think of repeating now. I wouldn't presume to claim that my interpretations of the opera are definitive or the only ones worth considering - the opera is too richly suggestive for anyone to claim such a thing - but they are the product of many years of listening, study, and thought. If anyone is interested in digging beneath the surface of this amazing opera, do please check out the following threads:

http://www.talkclassical.com/34771-wagner-guy-thing.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/36677-lets-talk-parsifal.html


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## Woodduck

Why are we even talking about "excusing" Wagner's bad behavior? Bad behavior is quite obviously bad behavior, and Wagner is long since dead. Either condemning him or excusing him is pointless and a waste of time.

What we should be seeking to do is to understand the artistic phenomenon Wagner was and is. That means looking, first and last, at his works, and then, if we wish, his person and life in the light of them. To turn this around and pick out aspects of his biography that we like or don't like, and to try to prove that his plots or his music are mere mouthpieces for his pet theories or expressions of his life circumstances, is to misunderstand the nature of art and its relationship to the artist. Wagner, like Beethoven, had to live in the world as a person with the usual needs and appetites, but lived within himself as a being overwhelmingly possessed by visions from dimensions of reality which could not be comprehended or shared by anyone. The inner life of a creative genius is a form of solitude more intense by magnitudes than that experienced by any other human being this side of insanity, and a form of enslavement to powers which he hopes with his whole being will repay his obedience with a few moments, here and there, of an ecstasy sufficient to compensate him for all the burdensome irrelevancies which other people call living.

Wagner said that he knew he could be hard on the people around him, but lamented that people could never begin to understand how hard being Wagner was on himself. We can take that as self-pity if we will (and the priggish and arrogant among us undoubtedly will), but it is a fact that very, very few - probably none - of us will ever walk in shoes as gigantic and heavy as his. To understand, to attempt to understand, is not to excuse. Wagner's flaws and errors as a man living in the world were what they were, but have perished with the world in which he lived. We ought to be able to acknowledge them without the petty gleefulness exhibited by those who think they are marksmen because they can hit the side of a barn.


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## howlingfantods

yeahhh.... sorry for opening up a can of worms. I have absolutely zero interest in debating the merits of Wagner's operas qua dramas. 

The only reason I mentioned my own pretty dismissive take on Parsifal as drama for the purposes of establishing that even if someone reading my list ranking the operas is skeptical about Parsifal based on the summary or themes, the opera is beautiful enough so even a Parsifal-drama-skeptic like me can love it above all others.


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## Itullian

DavidA said:


> I have no problem with that. It's when people try to excuse him that I resist.


And I have a problem with people that interject these issues into threads about his music.

Please start your own thread about Wagner's character if you like.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Parsifal is, notoriously and almost self-evidently, a difficult work to understand. Anyone offering an interpretation of it, particularly at this point in time, ought to take responsibility for his views and offer to support them. Doing so may require taking other views, of which there are many, into account. It really isn't good enough to parrot Nietzsche or anyone else, including one's own highly repetitive posts on the subject.
> 
> We can thank Nietzsche for lending his prestige to the view that _Parsifal_ "celebrates asceticism." At the same time he wrote of Wagner "prostrating himself at the foot of the cross." In the century and a half since, we've been treated to a procession of views of this opera which fail to take account of one aspect or another of its highly suggestive symbolism and attribute every sort of fantastic and pernicious intention to its composer. "Asceticism" is actually one of the more benign and traditional of these misconceptions, and has superficial support in the events of the opera's plot. The assumption that Wagner's use of sexual symbolism in the work amounts to a denunciation of sex and a recommendation of celibacy, however, does not survive examination. *If we think it's absurd that a "great sensualist" should compose a strange and magical work of "voluptuous" beauty which appears to preach that sensuality is evil, it should be obvious that the first thing we ought to do is look very closely at the work to ascertain whether all is, in fact, as it appears.*
> 
> It's an old saw that _Parsifal_ is an absurd or pernicious story that just happens to be expressed through sublime music. This is really just another version of the common remark that it seems impossible that a horrible person like Wagner could have written some of the most magnificent music ever composed (which in turn reflects Salieri's astonished indignation that the divine gift of greatness should have been bestowed on a person such as Mozart and not on his own distinguished and respected self). But the perception that the gods made some sort of mistake in their apportionment of gifts entails a superficial view of both the artist and his work.
> 
> Wagner always insisted that the deepest meanings of his works were to be apprehended through his music: "deeds of music made visible" is how he described _Tristan_. It applies equally well to _Parsifal_, which, far more than _Tristan_, takes place in a mythical dimension where everything represents - _re-presents_ - something, nothing is merely what it appears to be, and common everyday perceptions are turned upside down. _Parsifal_ is, as a friend of mine says, a "dream." And if we're to understand its symbols with anything approaching clarity, it is a fundamental misunderstanding of Wagner to assume that his music and his drama do not flow from the same deep source in him, and that he could compose an opera in which the meaning of the music and the meaning of the drama were fundamentally opposed.
> 
> I've written an enormous amount about the symbolism of _Parsifal_ under other threads in this forum - a labor of love, but one which it exhausts me even to think of repeating now. I wouldn't presume to claim that my interpretations of the opera are definitive or the only ones worth considering - the opera is too richly suggestive for anyone to claim such a thing - but they are the product of many years of listening, study, and thought. If anyone is interested in digging beneath the surface of this amazing opera, do please check out the following threads:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/34771-wagner-guy-thing.html
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/36677-lets-talk-parsifal.html


Rather than thinking about hidden meanings why not just face up to what the work obviously is - a purported celebration of asceticism by a great sensualist set to music of incredible voluptuousness. This is all part of the genius of the work, like it or not! In doing so we don't look for some sort of unfathomable meaning - just state the obvious!


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Rather than thinking about hidden meanings *why not just face up to what the work obviously is* - a purported celebration of asceticism by a great sensualist set to music of incredible voluptuousness. This is all part of the genius of the work, like it or not! In doing so we don't look for some sort of unfathomable meaning - *just state **the obvious!*


You just said that! That's _exactly_ what I wrote my post to answer. Do you realize that? That you are literally repeating yourself? Do you think anyone here wants to reread the same thing - the same identical words - they just responded to? Why do you think other people are responding to your posts? Are you making posts, knowing that all posts here are open to discussion, only so that you can insult people who respond to them by saying things like _"why not just face up to the obvious?"_ Are you here to consider what people have to say, or just to provoke reactions? There's a word for that, you realize. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to utter it here.

I guess some people do clearly think that everything is "obvious," or ought to be. Such people are presumably incapable of looking beneath the surfaces of things, not even realizing that there is anything to look for. Reality for them can only be what it appears to be at that moment. That's how they know that the sun revolves around the earth.

You have a long history of coming onto threads about Wagner, making remarks disparaging his work, refusing to back them with any reasoning, and dismissing other people's more thoughtful responses. It is very tiresome. Is there anything that might persuade you to have an actual discussion? Or is that not possible, since all you want is to make other people "state the obvious" - what's obvious to you, that is?

Well, enjoy "the obvious." Just please stop harping on it and tormenting those of us who want to look beyond surfaces and find meaning in great works of art.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> You just said that! That's _exactly_ what I wrote my post to answer. Do you realize that? That you are literally repeating yourself? Do you think anyone here wants to reread the same thing - the same identical words - they just responded to? Why do you think other people are responding to your posts? Are you making posts, knowing that all posts here are open to discussion, only so that you can insult people who respond to them by saying things like _"why not just face up to the obvious?"_ Are you here to consider what people have to say, or just to provoke reactions? There's a word for that, you realize. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to utter it here.
> 
> I guess some people do clearly think that everything is "obvious," or ought to be. Such people are presumably incapable of looking beneath the surfaces of things, not even realizing that there is anything to look for. Reality for them can only be what it appears to be at that moment. That's how they know that the sun revolves around the earth.
> 
> You have a long history of coming onto threads about Wagner, making remarks disparaging his work, refusing to back them with any reasoning, and dismissing other people's more thoughtful responses. It is very tiresome. Is there anything that might persuade you to have an actual discussion? Or is that not possible, since all you want is to make other people "state the obvious" - what's obvious to you, that is?
> 
> Well, enjoy "the obvious." Just please stop harping on it and tormenting those of us who want to look beyond surfaces and find meaning in great works of art.


I hardly think that writing an opinion which is shared by many other commentators is 'tormenting people'. I could also ask you to stop harping on about 'hidden meanings' but I believe you have a right to express your opinion even though I don't necessarily agree with it. Parsifal is a work which has divided opinion since its inception even among those who would count themselves as Wagnerians. That it has has music of incredible beauty and subtlety is beyond doubt. What has divided people is the philosophical ideas behind it. People far more learned than you and me have argued over it. Some commentators (Wagnerians among them) find incredibly dark meanings in the work and frankly that is why I don't look too deeply as I just want to enjoy the music! Anyway, why don't we just agree it is great music and leave it at that!


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## Couchie

Were it to be just solely about the music and not the libretto, then Wagner could have set the same music to a story about the cheese-making process and the joys of sex in the butt, and have just as good a work. But the drama is intrinsically the scaffold upon which the music is constructed and derives all of its context. Eliminate the structure from Beethoven and there is very little left to appreciate. In Wagner, the libretto is that structure as there are no conventional forms. Preludes aside, we appreciate the music *only* because of how the libretto gives birth to it!


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## The Conte

Couchie said:


> Were it to be just solely about the music and not the libretto, then Wagner could have set the same music to a story about the cheese-making process and the joys of sex in the butt, and have just as good a work. But the drama is intrinsically the scaffold upon which the music is constructed and derives all of its context. Eliminate the structure from Beethoven and there is very little left to appreciate. In Wagner, the libretto is that structure as there are no conventional forms. Preludes aside, we appreciate the music *only* because of how the libretto gives birth to it!


Rubbish! I would enjoy Beethoven and Wagner's melodies no matter the 'structure' they were set in.

I'm not saying that the orchestration, libretto harmonies and architecture of their works don't all add something as well, but I for one don't *only* adore Beethoven and Wagner because of the structure of their musical works.

N.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> I hardly think that writing an opinion which is shared by many other commentators is 'tormenting people'. I could also ask you to stop harping on about 'hidden meanings' but I believe you have a right to express your opinion even though I don't necessarily agree with it. *Parsifal is a work which has divided opinion since its inception *even among those who would count themselves as Wagnerians. That it has has music of incredible beauty and subtlety is beyond doubt. What has divided people is the philosophical ideas behind it.* People far more learned than you and me have argued over it.* Some commentators (Wagnerians among them) find incredibly dark meanings in the work and frankly that is why I don't look too deeply as I just want to enjoy the music! Anyway, why don't we just agree it is great music and leave it at that!


Yesterday, you said about _Parsifal:_

_Why I tend to listen to Parsifal without the libretto. It seems more acceptable that way ad there's a lot of bad faith in an opera that celebrates asceticism through music of extraordinary voluptuous beauty. Pain has never appeared more delicious and neither has hatred been so beguilingly packaged. Nietzsche was appalled by it: "a work of malice, ....of vindictiveness......an outrage on morality." Interesting that the world's great sensualist should have made an opera celebrating asceticism. That's apart from other distasteful elements many people see in the work. If only the music wasn't so beguiling! _

I responded by saying:

_Parsifal__ is, notoriously and almost self-evidently, a difficult work to understand...We've been treated to a procession of views of this opera which fail to take account of one aspect or another of its highly suggestive symbolism and attribute every sort of fantastic and pernicious intention to its composer...If we think it's absurd that a "great sensualist" should compose a strange and magical work of "voluptuous" beauty which appears to preach that sensuality is evil, it should be obvious that the first thing we ought to do is look very closely at the work to ascertain whether all is, in fact, as it appears...Parsifal takes place in a mythical dimension where everything represents - re-presents - something, nothing is merely what it appears to be, and common everyday perceptions are turned upside down...And if we're to understand its symbols with anything approaching clarity, it is a fundamental misunderstanding of Wagner to assume that his music and his drama do not flow from the same deep source in him, and that he could compose an opera in which the meaning of the music and the meaning of the drama were fundamentally opposed...I've written an enormous amount about the symbolism of Parsifal under other threads in this forum.
_
Your response to this was:

_*Rather than thinking about hidden meanings* *why not just face up to what the work obviously is* - a purported celebration of asceticism by a great sensualist set to music of incredible voluptuousness. This is all part of the genius of the work, like it or not! In doing so *we don't look for some sort of unfathomable meaning* - *just state the obvious!* _

I took you to task for merely repeating yourself, dismissing my response, and rudely saying that your interpretation of Parsifal is "obviously" true and that I should "face the obvious" - implying that the many people who disagree with your view are "obviously" wrong.

Now you're justifying your insistence on your "obviously" correct opinion on the grounds that "_Parsifal_ is a work which has divided opinion since its inception even among those who would count themselves as Wagnerians," and that "people far more learned than you and me have argued over it"? What? Come again? Really? _This_ shows that your view is "obviously" correct?

I'm sorry, but I must have missed the step in your argument where you state that fundamental law of logic: _"widespread disagreement proves that one person is correct and has the right to dismiss all contrary opinion as obviously wrong."_

News flash: None of those "far more learned" people you talk about think that the meaning of _Parsifal_ is "obvious." That's one way we can tell who is "learned" and who isn't. And when you speak of who is learned and who is not, kindly speak for yourself, and leave me out of it.


----------



## The Conte

To mis quote Oscar Wilde, there's no such thing as an immoral opera, there's just good and bad operas.

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> To mis quote Oscar Wilde, there's no such thing as an immoral opera, there's just good and bad operas.
> 
> N.


Bad operas? And these would be?


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Yesterday, you said about _Parsifal:_
> 
> _Why I tend to listen to Parsifal without the libretto. It seems more acceptable that way ad there's a lot of bad faith in an opera that celebrates asceticism through music of extraordinary voluptuous beauty. Pain has never appeared more delicious and neither has hatred been so beguilingly packaged. Nietzsche was appalled by it: "a work of malice, ....of vindictiveness......an outrage on morality." Interesting that the world's great sensualist should have made an opera celebrating asceticism. That's apart from other distasteful elements many people see in the work. If only the music wasn't so beguiling! _
> 
> I responded by saying:
> 
> _Parsifal__ is, notoriously and almost self-evidently, a difficult work to understand...We've been treated to a procession of views of this opera which fail to take account of one aspect or another of its highly suggestive symbolism and attribute every sort of fantastic and pernicious intention to its composer...If we think it's absurd that a "great sensualist" should compose a strange and magical work of "voluptuous" beauty which appears to preach that sensuality is evil, it should be obvious that the first thing we ought to do is look very closely at the work to ascertain whether all is, in fact, as it appears...Parsifal takes place in a mythical dimension where everything represents - re-presents - something, nothing is merely what it appears to be, and common everyday perceptions are turned upside down...And if we're to understand its symbols with anything approaching clarity, it is a fundamental misunderstanding of Wagner to assume that his music and his drama do not flow from the same deep source in him, and that he could compose an opera in which the meaning of the music and the meaning of the drama were fundamentally opposed...I've written an enormous amount about the symbolism of Parsifal under other threads in this forum.
> _
> Your response to this was:
> 
> _*Rather than thinking about hidden meanings* *why not just face up to what the work obviously is* - a purported celebration of asceticism by a great sensualist set to music of incredible voluptuousness. This is all part of the genius of the work, like it or not! In doing so *we don't look for some sort of unfathomable meaning* - *just state the obvious!* _
> 
> I took you to task for merely repeating yourself, dismissing my response, and rudely saying that your interpretation of Parsifal is "obviously" true and that I should "face the obvious" - implying that the many people who disagree with your view are "obviously" wrong.
> 
> Now you're justifying your insistence on your "obviously" correct opinion on the grounds that "_Parsifal_ is a work which has divided opinion since its inception even among those who would count themselves as Wagnerians," and that "people far more learned than you and me have argued over it"? What? Come again? Really? _This_ shows that your view is "obviously" correct?
> 
> I'm sorry, but I must have missed the step in your argument where you state that fundamental law of logic: _"widespread disagreement proves that one person is correct and has the right to dismiss all contrary opinion as obviously wrong."_
> 
> News flash: None of those "far more learned" people you talk about think that the meaning of _Parsifal_ is "obvious." That's one way we can tell who is "learned" and who isn't. And when you speak of who is learned and who is not, kindly speak for yourself, and leave me out of it.


Once again you have missed the point of what I actually said. What I said that Parsifal is a purported celebration of asceticism by a great sensualist set to music of incredible voluptuousness. You tried to contradict that by finding hidden meanings. Now I'm not saying there are not hidden meanings in Parsifal. Of course there is much more to it. For example, Wagnerian scholar Barry Millington finds it a 'witches brew of Christian compassion, Buddist / Schpenhaurian renunciation and racial prejudice." Others have accused Wagner of a "gross subtext" in the opera. One critic recently said it is: "By turns spiritual, erotic and repellent, it still ties listeners, interpreters and critics in knots." He goes on: "It's sexist, humourlessly ritualistic and disturbingly concerned with blood and "purity" - but Parsifal is still brilliant." Yet another commentator: "Wagner's emphasis on blood and purity carries inevitable premonitions of Nazi ideology, though the opera's impact on areas far removed from extreme-right politics was also seismic" And again: "Wagner's depiction of Klingsor's world as motivated solely by sexuality and his equation of castration with repression feeds into Freudian theory."
So I'm not unaware that there are deeper meanings in Parsifal and I'm not saying that I agree with the statements I have quoted. i just quote them to illustrate the enormous differences of opinion by learned people on Parsifal. We could of course go on ad infinitum as millions of gallons of ink have been spilled on it.
Just who you read and what you take, everyone appears to have a different view of Parsifal. There are of course deep meanings. However, my primary point was not to try and look at deep meanings but merely to state three points which I thought were obvious:
(i) it is a purported celebration of asceticism - just look at the plot
(ii) it was written by a great sensualist - the history of Wagner's life will tell us that. i haven't read a single noted commentator who felt otherwise.
(iii) it is set to music of incredible voluptuousness. The music is quite incredible. Stunning! The thing that makes me come back to it despite severe apprehensions of what it might all mean.
Please remember that the very point of these forums is discussion. And discussion will inevitably bring disagreement as will be seen if anyone googles in 'Parsifal'.
Having said all that I shall now go listen to some of it!


----------



## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> Bad operas? And these would be?


Ones that have never been revived since their first run (they were that bad!)

Of course, there are also operas that were ahead of their time or bad performances gave them a bad reputation until they were performed some time after their first runs, but some pieces that have never been revived truly deserve not to be heard again.

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> Ones that have never been revived since their first run (they were that bad!)
> 
> Of course, there are also operas that were ahead of their time or bad performances gave them a bad reputation until they were performed some time after their first runs, but some pieces that have never been revived truly deserve not to be heard again.
> 
> N.


O.k. I thought you maybe had some in mind.


----------



## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> O.k. I thought you maybe had some in mind.


There are a few operas in the rep I don't particularly like (fewer than 10, though), but if an opera is regularly performed, still performed now and again or pulled out because somebody believes it deserves a hearing, who am I to say it is 'bad'. Thousands of operas have been written in the last four hundred years, the truly bad ones must be the majority of those nobody wants to hear or see again.

N.


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## Sloe

This might seem contradictory I think the Wagner operas with the most exceptional beautiful music Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal can be a bit difficult to get into therefore is Götterdämmerung my favorite Wagner opera that have the most beautiful music and it is an opera I have been able to listen to or seeing through without having to struggle from the beginning.


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## DavidA

Sloe said:


> This might seem contradictory I think the Wagner operas with the most exceptional wonderful music Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal can be a bit difficult to get into therefore is Götterdämmerung my favorite Wagner opera that have the most beautiful music and it is an opera I don´t have to struggle to listen or seeing through.


You are right that it is easier. tristan and parsifal are works with revolutionary harmonies. Gotterdamerung is actually somewhat of a throwback to an earlier style.


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## Sloe

DavidA said:


> You are right that it is easier. tristan and parsifal are works with revolutionary harmonies. Gotterdamerung is actually somewhat of a throwback to an earlier style.


It was something I have been thinking of for a while that the operas with most beautiful music can be the hardest to get through.
I would say Tristan is clearly more easy to listen to than Parsifal mostly because the music is a bit more lively I can´t find a better word. I also think it was a wise decisition of Wagner to not mention any nationalities that are in the original sources that are confusing anyway like Brünnhilde is queen of Iceland or is Sigfried king of the Franks or the Huns.

I also don´t think there are any rights or wrongs with personal preferences.


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## Woodduck

Sloe said:


> It was something I have been thinking of for a while that the operas with most beautiful music can be the hardest to get through.
> I would say Tristan is clearly more easy to listen to than Parsifal mostly because the music is a bit more lively I can´t find a better word. I also think it was a wise decisition of Wagner to not mention any nationalities that are in the original sources that are confusing anyway like Brünnhilde is queen of Iceland or is Sigfried king of the Franks or the Huns.
> 
> I also don´t think there are any rights or wrongs with personal preferences.


The distinguished critic Conrad L. Osborne once commented that if _Die Meistersinger_ is the Wagner opera for people who don't care for Wagner, _Parsifal_ is the Wagner opera for Wagnerites only. It's an exaggeration, of course, but he has a point.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> The distinguished critic Conrad L. Osborne once commented that if _Die Meistersinger_ is the Wagner opera for people who don't care for Wagner, _Parsifal_ is the Wagner opera for Wagnerites only. It's an exaggeration, of course, but he has a point.


hahahahahahahahaha


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## Steatopygous

Sloe said:


> This might seem contradictory I think the Wagner operas with the most exceptional beautiful music Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal can be a bit difficult to get into therefore is Götterdämmerung my favorite Wagner opera that have the most beautiful music and it is an opera I have been able to listen to or seeing through without having to struggle from the beginning.


I think Gotterdammerung is my favourite Wagner too, especially Hagen. Makes modern Hollywood villains look like goody two-shoes. The only time is disagree with my own assessment is when I am listening to another Wagner opera!


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## anmhe

Parsifal is always #1 on my list. It hits me in very personal ways that I can articulate, but I don't enjoy sharing.
What I can share is that personal interactions have greatly benefited from this work, as has my knowledge of self.

Wagner was a flawed man, but he has made me weep with joy too many times for me to dismiss him as simply a bigot.


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## Woodduck

Steatopygous said:


> I think Gotterdammerung is my favourite Wagner too, especially Hagen. Makes modern Hollywood villains look like goody two-shoes. The only time is disagree with my own assessment is when I am listening to another Wagner opera!


Wagner does create marvelous villains, doesn't he? They are never just stock "bad guys" (or gals); we always feel the complexity of their motivation, some cause or reason behind their evil or depravity, their righteous wrath at the insult or rejection which they think life has handed them. We are allowed to see and feel their view of themselves as outsiders with a cause, we are even permitted at moments to like them, and it gives characters like Ortrud, Alberich (and his spawn Hagen) and Klingsor a touch of grandeur.

What adds to this is that his heroes - or, to be more exact, the characters who oppose the villains - are not entirely sympathetic, and may even, in the cases of Wotan and Titurel, appear as the villains' "respectable" alter egos, motivated in part by the same ambitions and compulsions as their opposite numbers. When Wotan and Alberich face each other for the second and last time in _Siegfried_, they recognize that they are brothers under the skin in their desire for the power of the ring. Titurel never faces Klingsor, or faces up to the meaning of his own desire for the power of the Grail and Spear. But the consequences for Wotan and for Titurel are the same.

Wagner's grand villains and corrupt heroes go to their fates together as twins, hand in hand, until the advent of Parsifal, who is the fool Siegfried transformed, "durch Mitleid wissend" - made wise through compassion. Compassion, the identification of self with the other, which moved Brunnhilde to defy Wotan's orders but could only bring her dignity in dying with the hero who never learned it, finally in _Parsifal_ stops the grinding wheel of desire and death.

How, we may ask, did that bad fellow Wagner know this, and come to write the music in which all the terrible groans of the wounded soul are finally stilled? Life is always stranger, and the soul of man deeper, than we imagine. Perhaps only the man who could find in himself an Alberich could bring us Parsifal.


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## Woodduck

anmhe said:


> Parsifal is always #1 on my list. It hits me in very personal ways that I can articulate, but I don't enjoy sharing.
> What I can share is that personal interactions have greatly benefited from this work, as has my knowledge of self.
> 
> Wagner was a flawed man, but he has made me weep with joy too many times for me to dismiss him as simply a bigot.


Thank you, anmhe. I think our minds touched each other while we were writing.


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## SixFootScowl

I have only heard and watched two of Wagner's operas and I rank those two thus:

1. Meistersinger
2. Der Fliegened Hollander

However, my favorite is #2, but I consider #1 the greater of the two. Having looked at the synopses of the other Wagner operas I doubt they would rank higher than these two for me.


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## Itullian

You might like Lohengrin.


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## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> You might like Lohengrin.


I think I am as far into Wagner as I can comfortably get. The other operas get to weird for me with people turning into animals and vice versa, witches, and other freaky stuff. Maybe his first opera would work for me but I have not read the synopsis so really don't know much more than it is very long and somewhat obscure, so maybe there are no recordings anyway.


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## Barbebleu

D


Florestan said:


> I think I am as far into Wagner as I can comfortably get. The other operas get to weird for me with people turning into animals and vice versa, witches, and other freaky stuff. Maybe his first opera would work for me but I have not read the synopsis so really don't know much more than it is very long and somewhat obscure, so maybe there are no recordings anyway.


Wagner operas with witches and people turning into animals etc.? Which Wagner operas do you have in mind? Certainly none that I have ever seen.


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## SiegendesLicht

Barbebleu said:


> D
> 
> Wagner operas with witches and people turning into animals etc.? Which Wagner operas do you have in mind? Certainly none that I have ever seen.


Well, in Lohengrin the boy does get turned into a swan by a witch, and then back again. And in the Ring a dwarf turnes into a snake, a toad and then a giant turnes into a dragon... Lots of wizardry here. And Florestan, I certainly don't want to rub you the wrong way, but you know that listening to music - any music - will not send you to hell, right?


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## SixFootScowl

SiegendesLicht said:


> ... but you know that listening to music - any music - will not send you to hell, right?


My shying away from witchcraft and wizardry and such is a matter of avoiding things that are not wholesome in my Biblical world view and, as a Christian, avoiding such things in real life and their glorification in film and book (if Wagner indeed glorifies them). I avoid operas such as Don Giovanni even though he is punished in the end because it seems (seems as I have not watched it) to me that too many of his "exploits" are paraded through the opera, yet I can appreciate an opera like Tosca which never has Scarpia's planned exploit come to fruition, though the ending is rather depressing.

In the right context, evil is acceptable to me in an opera, such as Pizarro in Fidelio where the evil is thwarted. In the Dutchman I see the evil as coming from the Devil who is thwarted in the end by Senta's noble committment (I think Beethoven would have appreciated this opera). My DVD has Senta diving into the sea from a low height, not drowning, but being lifted up by the Dutchman onto the sinking ship. So I don't even consider it a suicide, though I realize that was the composers intent.


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## gellio

Sad to see Siegfried so low, mine are:

1. Siegfried
2. Gotterdammerung
3. Walkure
4. Rheingold
5. Parsifal
6. Tristan
7. Meistersinger
8. Lohengrin
9. Tannhauser
10. Dutchman


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## gellio

Zabirilog said:


> 10. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 9. Lohengrin
> 8. Das Rheingold
> 7. Tannhäuser
> 6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> 5. Tristan und Isolde
> 4. Parsifal
> 3. Die Walküre
> It has so many fantastic things, in the music and in the drama.
> 2. Götterdämmerung
> With good singers and production, it can be even greater than Siegfried, but for some reasons Siegfried is better in my opinion.
> 1. Siegfried
> I'm a Siegfried crazy maybe because it was the first Wagner I ever saw... And the third act is something what I can't explain.


Yay! Siegfried!


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## Barbebleu

V


Florestan said:


> My shying away from witchcraft and wizardry and such is a matter of avoiding things that are not wholesome in my Biblical world view and, as a Christian, avoiding such things in real life and their glorification in film and book (if Wagner indeed glorifies them). I avoid operas such as Don Giovanni even though he is punished in the end because it seems (seems as I have not watched it) to me that too many of his "exploits" are paraded through the opera, yet I can appreciate an opera like Tosca which never has Scarpia's planned exploit come to fruition, though the ending is rather depressing.
> 
> In the right context, evil is acceptable to me in an opera, such as Pizarro in Fidelio where the evil is thwarted. In the Dutchman I see the evil as coming from the Devil who is thwarted in the end by Senta's noble committment (I think Beethoven would have appreciated this opera). My DVD has Senta diving into the sea from a low height, not drowning, but being lifted up by the Dutchman onto the sinking ship. So I don't even consider it a suicide, though I realize that was the composers intent.


My apologies. I never think of Wagner's operas, or any opera for that matter, as having any basis in reality. To me they are flights of the imagination meant to relieve one of the realities of everyday life. My beliefs, whatever they might be, are not impinged upon by my love of drama and music in the happy combination of opera. But I reserve the right to happily accept that not everyone thinks that way.


----------



## mountmccabe

mountmccabe said:


> Die Walküre
> Parsifal
> Götterdämmerung
> Lohengrin
> Der fliegende Holländer
> Tristan und Isolde
> Das Rheingold
> Tannhäuser
> Siegfried
> Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


Revised!


Parsifal
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Tristan und Isolde
Lohengrin
Das Rheingold
Der fliegende Holländer
Siegfried
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Tannhäuser


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## Itullian

I think Lohengrin is "good" opera. Good wins and evil is vanquished.
Ortrud is recognized for what she is and the Grail is represented as Holy and protected.

I would have had Elsa live though, which many recent versions do.


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## gellio

Florestan said:


> My shying away from witchcraft and wizardry and such is a matter of avoiding things that are not wholesome in my Biblical world view and, as a Christian, avoiding such things in real life and their glorification in film and book (if Wagner indeed glorifies them). I avoid operas such as Don Giovanni even though he is punished in the end because it seems (seems as I have not watched it) to me that too many of his "exploits" are paraded through the opera, yet I can appreciate an opera like Tosca which never has Scarpia's planned exploit come to fruition, though the ending is rather depressing.
> 
> In the right context, evil is acceptable to me in an opera, such as Pizarro in Fidelio where the evil is thwarted. In the Dutchman I see the evil as coming from the Devil who is thwarted in the end by Senta's noble committment (I think Beethoven would have appreciated this opera). My DVD has Senta diving into the sea from a low height, not drowning, but being lifted up by the Dutchman onto the sinking ship. So I don't even consider it a suicide, though I realize that was the composers intent.


Are you joking?


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> Are you joking?


Not in the least.


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> Not in the least.


Well it's too bad you're missing something miraculous with Don Giovanni. I'm pretty certain, if there is a God, he/she also loves Don Giovanni.


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## SiegendesLicht

Florestan said:


> My shying away from witchcraft and wizardry and such is a matter of avoiding things that are not wholesome in my Biblical world view and, as a Christian, avoiding such things in real life and their glorification in film and book (if Wagner indeed glorifies them).


I don't think Wagner "glorifies" any of those things for their own sake. They are more of an instrument, a way to convey an idea, like in any good story. And sometimes the magic the characters use backfires right back at them, The story of Goetterdaemmerung where Siegfried masks himself as Gunther by magical means in order to win Bruennhilde for him, but their plan goes as bad as it could, is one of such instances.


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## Itullian

I don't think Wagner ever glorifies evil or bad. In fact it is to be avoided and overcome and always causes bad ends or destruction.


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## SiegendesLicht

^ Yes, that is definitely so. The question is whether the fairy-tale magic Wagnerian characters employ, is evil all by itself.


----------



## Woodduck

Florestan said:


> My shying away from witchcraft and wizardry and such is a matter of avoiding things that are not wholesome in my Biblical world view and, as a Christian, avoiding such things in real life and their glorification in film and book (if Wagner indeed glorifies them). I avoid operas such as Don Giovanni even though he is punished in the end because it seems (seems as I have not watched it) to me that too many of his "exploits" are paraded through the opera, yet I can appreciate an opera like Tosca which never has Scarpia's planned exploit come to fruition, though the ending is rather depressing.
> 
> In the right context, evil is acceptable to me in an opera, such as Pizarro in Fidelio where the evil is thwarted. In the Dutchman I see the evil as coming from the Devil who is thwarted in the end by Senta's noble committment (I think Beethoven would have appreciated this opera). My DVD has Senta diving into the sea from a low height, not drowning, but being lifted up by the Dutchman onto the sinking ship. So I don't even consider it a suicide, though I realize that was the composers intent.


I think you would find, Florestan, that on close acquaintance Wagner's operas turn out to have profound moral lessons that you would find quite compatible with your Christian ethics.

Wieland Wagner, Wagner's grandson, who presided over the reopening of the Bayreuth festival in 1951 and created many remarkable productions of his grandfather's operas there, once said that Wagner's works were "above all, Christian." He didn't mean that in the sense that they were about specifically Christian themes (although _Tannhauser_ and_ Parsifal_ do contain some overtly Christian elements) but that they ultimately rest upon ethical ideals arising from Western culture's Christian roots.

A lot of accusations of "immorality" have been hurled at these operas, most of them motivated either by the knowledge that Wagner wasn't the most admirable character in certain respects, or by the association of his works with Hitler who tried to appropriate Wagner for his own perverse purposes. But if you look long and carefully enough at the operas themselves you'll find some very edifying and uplifting themes, and you'll see that evil is always recognized for what it is, but also that, as in life, good and evil are not always what they seem at first.

I'd encourage you to give Wagner a chance to reveal his inner meanings to you. No operas offer, in the end, more food for thought. Some of us have been thinking about them all our lives, and are deeply grateful for the glimpses they've given us of human experience at its most intense, expressed in some of the most sublime music ever composed.


----------



## Itullian

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ Yes, that is definitely so. The question is whether the fairy-tale magic Wagnerian characters employ, is evil all by itself.


I guess that's personal. I grew up loving sci fi, fairy tales, etc. I thought they were wonderful. 
And it never affected my faith one iota. Why would it? Cause I knew its all make believe.
I never gave it a thought.


----------



## Itullian

And I recognized most had a moral to the story and were to capture the imagination.

Pinocchio is still my favorite.


----------



## Itullian

How can I possibly rank these operas that I love.........

1. Dutchman -Parsifal


----------



## Barbebleu

But remember fans, there is no such thing as magic, black or otherwise. David Copperfield aside!


----------



## anmhe

Itullian said:


> I don't think Wagner ever glorifies evil or bad. In fact it is to be avoided and overcome and always causes bad ends or destruction.


Yup.

Fliegende Holländer is the exception. Suicide is the path to salvation in this case. In T&I suicide is not the solution at all. Had they waited a little longer, they could have bravely faced their fate and been found guiltless.


----------



## gardibolt

Both Tannhäuser and Parsifal ask some serious and difficult questions about the nature of sin and redemption, and both within an expressly Christian context. I think you're selling them quite short.

While the Ring is set within a pagan context, it's all about morality and the rotten foundations of the palace of the Gods, based on Wotan's deception and theft of Alberich's gold, and the consequences that inexorably follow, not to mention the dangers of temptation. And sin is definitely punished throughout with death and destruction.


----------



## SixFootScowl

anmhe said:


> Yup.
> 
> Fliegende Holländer is the exception. Suicide is the path to salvation in this case. In T&I suicide is not the solution at all. Had they waited a little longer, they could have bravely faced their fate and been found guiltless.


I don't know that suicide was necessarily the path to salvation in this case.  Had the Dutchman not overheard and/or misunderstood Eric's final pleading with Senta, the plan was for a wedding. At that point would the Dutchman have (like in the Twilight Zone episode) have aged the several hundred years he had been wandering and turned to dust, leaving Senta as a widow? As it is in the opera, she was committed to redeeming him by remaining true until death, not an accelerated death. Senta's suicide appears to have been an impulsive thing (as was Floria Tosca's), not premeditated. I think that makes a big difference.


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## SixFootScowl

Many thanks to all the recent posters (Itullian, SiegendesLicht, Woodduck, gardibolt) who have helped to enlighten me about Wagner's operas. Talk Classical is serving it's purpose. I will now confidently consider the other Wagner Operas, especially since it is the only way I can get to more DVDs with Waltraud Meier in them.  Not saying I will embrace any more of Wagner's operas, but I will sure look for a next one to get into and will be biased towards a performance on DVD that has Waltraud.


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## Itullian

Lohengrin ..........................


----------



## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> Lohengrin ..........................


You have always given me good advice, so I went over to Wikipedia and read the entire synopsis. I don't see any issues with this opera, but don't care for the ending where Elisa drops dead. And, unfortunately, in the DVD Waltraud plays the witch. Might work. Have to think about it. I should look at the other Wagner opera synopses as well before diving into one.


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## SixFootScowl

Woodduck said:


> ... that Wagner wasn't the most admirable character in certain respects, or by the association of his works with Hitler who tried to appropriate Wagner for his own perverse purposes.


The book I am reading on Der fliegende Hollander discusses Wagners fascination with the occult in relation to developing the Dutchman opera. That of course is only considered a character flaw if one feels such fascination is a bad thing morally.

The book also discusses IIRC his having an affair (or maybe more than one).

Hey, didn't Hitler try to appropriate Beethoven's Ninth for his own purposes too?

At any rate, none of these are reasons to not listen to Wagner's works unless they so color his works as to make them objectionable.


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## SiegendesLicht

Well, I am glad you feel this way


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## Itullian

The only operas I would issue a caveat for are Tannhauser and possibly Parsifal 2nd act where the seduction scenes can be kind of graphic.
Especially in the Paris version of Tannhauser. You may prefer the Dresden version.

But it comes down to the production. 
Both have good endings though.


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## SixFootScowl

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, I am glad you feel this way


I am afraid part of it is not having done my homework, and part of it was my habit of lazily writing off a lot of opera by reading the last paragraph of the last act of the synopsis. If people died I was generally turned off. But I did take to the Donizetti Queen operas, but I think I came into those via Mariella Devia in Maria Stuarda. Sometimes a singer can be the influence that brings you to an opera.


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## Woodduck

Florestan said:


> You have always given me good advice, so I went over to Wikipedia and read the entire synopsis. I don't see any issues with this opera, but don't care for the ending where Elisa drops dead. And, unfortunately, in the DVD Waltraud plays the witch. Might work. Have to think about it. I should look at the other Wagner opera synopses as well before diving into one.


It's important to remember that in opera the music is often the key to understanding the story, because it's the music that reveals the souls of the characters, sometimes more than their actions alone. Wagner always made a point of this, and in fact his distinctive musical method involving the use of leitmotivs is predicated on the ability of the orchestra to tell us things that even the characters may not be conscious of. Some of Wagner's supernatural goings-on may seem hard to understand, or may seem like nothing more than fantasy and fairy-tale, but let the music speak to you and it may reveal a deeper significance. It may even turn your initial impressions or expectations upside down.


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## DavidA

Florestan said:


> The book I am reading on Der fliegende Hollander discusses Wagners fascination with the occult in relation to developing the Dutchman opera. That of course is only considered a character flaw if one feels such fascination is a bad thing morally.
> 
> *The book also discusses IIRC his having an affair (or maybe more than one). *
> 
> Hey, didn't Hitler try to appropriate Beethoven's Ninth for his own purposes too?
> 
> At any rate, none of these are reasons to not listen to Wagner's works unless they so color his works as to make them objectionable.


One biographer puts it: "The tally of his serious and casual affairs taken together barely exceeds a dozen...."


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## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> One biographer puts it: "The tally of his serious and casual affairs taken together barely exceeds a dozen...."


Not enough to compete with Don Giovanni eh?


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## DavidA

Florestan said:


> Not enough to compete with Don Giovanni eh?


The Don is a fictional character whereas Wagner was all too historical.


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## DavidA

gellio said:


> Well it's too bad you're missing something miraculous with Don Giovanni. I'm pretty certain, if there is a God, he/she also loves Don Giovanni.


You've missed one small point - the Don was sent to hell! :lol:


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## DavidA

Itullian said:


> I don't think Wagner ever glorifies evil or bad. In fact it is to be avoided and overcome and always causes bad ends or destruction.


Hmmm Victor Gollancz's thoughts in Opera Magazine:

http://opera.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/september-1964/9/doubts-about-the-ring


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## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Hmmm Victor Gollancz's thoughts in Opera Magazine:
> 
> http://opera.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/september-1964/9/doubts-about-the-ring


I stand by my opinion thank you.


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## DavidA

I must confess to enjoying parts of Wagner's operas and finding some pretty tedious. If only the guy had invested in a blue pencil to edit his sometimes interminable libretti. But here is a list of the operas I enjoy when I'm in the mood:

*Walkure* - the first act is superb (if you can ignore the dubious morality); the second act I usually skip Wotan's boring history lesson and get on to the Invocation of Death scene; the third act tends to annoy me as the bullying father takes it out on his daughter who was only trying to do what he told her in the first place. But the music is superb.
I usually miss the first two acts of *Siegfried* (apart from the forging scene of act 1) and go to the truly inspired act 3, especially in Karajan's version with the glorious Denersch awakening. 
*Tristan* I admire as a masterpiece although I cannot really love it as the characters are difficult to love. But it is certainly a revolutionary work.
*Mastersingers *- I'm sure I would like it more if Wagner had cut it by about an hour. Why does David have to go through all the rules for us? Why not just give a printed sheet at the door? But again the music is captivating in parts.
*Parsifal* is the most problematic - but also probably contains the greatest music.
*Lohengrin* is the most beautiful - but you have to accept witchcraft of course (not unique to Wagner)
*Gotterdamerung* is really a return to the more old fashioned sort of opera Wagner was against. Again some glorious moments. Hagen summoning the vassals makes your hair stand on end as it did the first time I heard it. Only I've now far less hair to stand on end!
No particular order!


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## DavidA

Itullian said:


> I stand by my opinion thank you.


No problem. His shade probably stands by his!


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## howlingfantods

DavidA said:


> I must confess to enjoying parts of Wagner's operas and finding some pretty tedious. If only the guy had invested in a blue pencil to edit his interminable libretti. But here is a list of the operas I enjoy:
> 
> *Walkure* - the first act is superb (if you can ignore the dubious morality); the second act I usually skip Wotan's boring history lesson and the third act tends to annoy me as the bullying father takes it out on his daughter who was only trying to do what he told her in the first place. But the music is superb.
> I miss the first two acts of *Siegfried* (apart from the forging scene of act 1) and go to the truly inspired act 3, especially in Karajan's version with the glorious Denersch awakening.
> *Tristan* I admire as a masterpiece although I cannot really love it as the characters are difficult to love. But it is certainly a revolutionary work.
> *Mastersingers *- I'm sure I would like it more if Wagner had cut it by about an hour. Why does David have to go through all the rules for us? Why not just give a printed sheet at the door?
> *Parsifal* is the most problematic - but also probably contains the greatest music.
> *Lohengrin* is the most beautiful - but you have to accept witchcraft of course (not unique to Wagner)
> *Gotterdamerung* is really a return to the more old fashioned sort of opera Wagner was against. Again some glorious moments.
> No particular order!


I would submit that perhaps the reason you find so much of the Ring tedious is because you favor a recording where much of what you skip is presented somewhat tediously. I'm never bored by the Wotan/Fricka or Wotan/Brunnhilde or the Siegfried/Mime or Wanderer/Mime scenes in the Furt/Scala or Bohm or Krauss, but I am often bored by the same material in the Karajan. I know you like to terminally repeat your whole "Bohm lacks light and shade" thing that you probably read from some partisan articles decades ago (Culshaw maybe? he is super unreliable but you seem to cite him a lot) but you might try revisiting those recordings with a more open mind.


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## Itullian

Quote Stephen Frye, Jewish critic and liberal,
"I believe his work is on the side of the angels.
It is fundamentally good."


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## SixFootScowl

Well having a little witchcraft in an opera is not necessarily a problem, depending on how it is portrayed. I did read the Chronicles of Narnia, which has witches, and have no problem with that work. Now that would make quite the opera or series of operas--there are seven books as I recall.


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## gardibolt

> When I call The Ring immoral I mean that it glorifies evil:


 from Gollancz...

That's just silly.
What happens as a consequence of the evil that's portrayed in the Ring?

Alberich steals the Rhinegold. He ends up forswearing love and then having his riches stolen from him, leaving him in misery and impotent rage. He isn't killed, but he's certainly made to suffer, as he's denied the one thing he wants most.
Wotan steals the Ring and the Tarnhelm and Alberich's gold to pay off Fasolt and Fafner. He is rewarded with a curse that ends in the destruction of him and his fellow gods, and everything they've built, despite his machinations over several operas to fend off that curse; even Fricka sees early on that he's on a fool's errand.
Fasolt takes the Ring for himself. Fafner kills him. Siegfried kills Fafner
Siegmund kills wedding guests. He in turn is killed.
Siegmund and Sieglinde commit incest, incidentally betraying the hospitality of Hunding, who has agreed to let Siegmund spend the night in his home out of the storm. Hunding kills Siegmund, and Sieglinde apparently dies in or shortly after childbirth.
Hunding avenges the wedding guests, and the betrayal of his hospitality (arguably justifiable homicide--I'm not sure many juries would convict). Wotan strikes him dead anyway.
Brünnhilde defies her father's commands; she is cursed to sleep in magic fire (personally I don't see her acts as evil but rather trying to divine his actual will as opposed to what he tells her, but if you want it to be considered evil, it's punished).
Mime plots to kill Siegfried. Siegfried kills him.
(true, Siegfried killing Fafner and Mime goes unpunished, but at least the latter is arguably self-defense, and legendary heroes do have a thing for killing dragons)
Gunther's lust for Brünnhilde ends up with him being killed. 
Siegfried's betrayal of Brünnhilde is put down to the effects of the potion (a weak device, to be true, but clearly a signal that Siegfried should not be held accountable for the consequences of his actions) but he ends up dead at Hagen's hands anyway.
Hagen's plotting with Gunther to get the Ring ends up with Hagen being drowned in a torrent of the Rhine; Brünnhilde's connivance with Hagen ends up with her husband dead and she committing suicide.
Even Gutrune, who is relatively innocent in Wagner's telling of the tale, ends up dead of grief.

I think it's exceedingly moral. Pretty much anyone in the opera who does something immoral or evil receives severe punishment--not always at once, but eventually. How is it glorifying evil to demonstrate that while there may be a short-term benefit, in the long term the consequences of evil are serious and severe? Gollancz needs to separate Hitler from Wagner; they're not the same guy.


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## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> I would submit that perhaps the reason you find so much of the Ring tedious is because you favor a recording where much of what you skip is presented somewhat tediously. I'm never bored by the Wotan/Fricka or Wotan/Brunnhilde or the Siegfried/Mime or Wanderer/Mime scenes in the Furt/Scala or Bohm or Krauss, but I am often bored by the same material in the Karajan. I know you like to terminally repeat your whole "Bohm lacks light and shade" thing that you probably read from some partisan articles decades ago (Culshaw maybe? he is super unreliable but you seem to cite him a lot) but you might try revisiting those recordings with a more open mind.


No friend, I certainly don't go to Culshaw when I want an opinion on Wagner. If you had read my posts properly it might become rather more obvious. Culshaw is very interesting on the development of recorded opera but he was a man with an agenda in mind. Culshaw was the man who championed Solti whose Wagner I don't particularly care for. However (coming at things with an open mind) I do believe he was an enormously gifted man as a recording producer even though - like most pioneers - he went too far at times in his spatial effects. I am actually bored by the said scenes you mention (I didn't mention Fricka / Wotan btw) as I find them pretty tedious and long drawn out. I find them as tedious with Bohm or Krauss (and yes, I have both recordings) as with anyone, apart from Goodall who takes everything at snails pace. But I have no problem if you like them. That's fine! Please enjoy! But please don't tell me I should be more open minded just because our tastes don't concur.


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## howlingfantods

DavidA said:


> No friend, I certainly don't go to Culshaw when I want an opinion on Wagner. If you had read my posts properly it might become rather more obvious. Culshaw is very interesting on the development of recorded opera but he was a man with an agenda in mind. Culshaw was the man who championed Solti whose Wagner I don't particularly care for. However (coming at things with an open mind) I do believe he was an enormously gifted man as a recording producer even though - like most pioneers - he went too far at times in his spatial effects. I am actually bored by the said scenes you mention (I didn't mention Fricka / Wotan btw) as I find them pretty tedious and long drawn out. I find them as tedious with Bohm or Krauss (and yes, I have both recordings) as with anyone, apart from Goodall who takes everything at snails pace. But I have no problem if you like them. That's fine! Please enjoy! But please don't tell me I should be more open minded just because our tastes don't concur.


de gustibus, but I still think it borderline ridiculous that this is the typical conversation here:

David-Karajan Ring is the best!
Wagnerfanwhoever-Really? I find Karajan pretty boring and underdramatized in many parts, like the long scenes in Walkure A2 and Siegfried A1 and A2. 
David-Ridiculous! Karajan Ring is full of drama!

later...

David-Walkure A2 and Siegfried A1 and A2 are boring! Wagner needed an editor!


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## SiegendesLicht

Itullian said:


> Quote Stephen Frye, Jewish critic and liberal,
> "I believe his work is on the side of the angels.
> It is fundamentally good."


He says it in such a haughty condescending tone, as if what he really means is "I give you my permission to enjoy Wagner, because I have decided that his work is fundamentally good". Sorry, Herr Fry, I don't need your or anybody else's verdict about my favorite music in order to enjoy it.


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## SiegendesLicht

DavidA said:


> *Mastersingers *- I'm sure I would like it more if Wagner had cut it by about an hour. Why does David have to go through all the rules for us? Why not just give a printed sheet at the door? *But again the music is captivating in parts*.


And that is the reason - to let the "never-ending melody" flow free.


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## Itullian

SiegendesLicht said:


> He says it in such a haughty condescending tone, as if what he really means is "I give you my permission to enjoy Wagner, because I have decided that his work is fundamentally good". Sorry, Herr Fry, I don't need your or anybody else's verdict about my favorite music in order to enjoy it.


I didn't take it that way at all. I got his love of these operas.
I think he was saying, see through all the prejudices and enjoy the masterpieces that they are.


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## DavidA

J


howlingfantods said:


> de gustibus, but I still think it borderline ridiculous that this is the typical conversation here:
> 
> David-Karajan Ring is the best!
> Wagnerfanwhoever-Really? I find Karajan pretty boring and underdramatized in many parts, like the long scenes in Walkure A2 and Siegfried A1 and A2.
> David-Ridiculous! Karajan Ring is full of drama!
> 
> later...
> 
> David-Walkure A2 and Siegfried A1 and A2 are boring! Wagner needed an editor!


It is borderline ridiculous if you quote me as saying thngs I have not said in a way I've not said them! :lol:

And if ridiculous why continue it?


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## Faustian

DavidA said:


> *Mastersingers *- I'm sure I would like it more if Wagner had cut it by about an hour. Why does David have to go through all the rules for us? Why not just give a printed sheet at the door? But again the music is captivating in parts.


The purpose of course is to demonstrate how extremely pedantic the guild has become, and how difficult it is for anyone to break through in a environment that stifles inspiration and any sort of uniqueness and individuality.

But really, we're talking about a few minutes here. Hardly something that would really make much as far as time goes, in the context of 4 and a half hours. I find Wagner always pays back that investment of ones time; his operas are certainly long and complicated, but they are also intelligent, insightful, and deeply rewarding.

Of course if you're largely numb to the the dramatic elements of the works and all you care about is the exciting music, then yeah, makes sense that less would be more. But shortening his operas would hardly make them better works of art, indeed I think it would make them quite considerably less powerful.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> I usually skip Wotan's boring history lesson [in Walküre Act II] and get on to the Invocation of Death scene


De gustibus, as you say! It's the other way round with me. I just love the Wotan/Brünnhilde scene for its unprecedented sense of psychology; in the hands of the best singers and conductors, this "Grand Tour" of Wotan's shifting moods is a masterpiece in its own right. By contrast, the _Todesverkündigung_ is too self-consciously "solemn" for my liking, and seems to go on far too long.

In the current Bayreuth production by Frank Castorf, both scenes are so ineptly directed and confusingly staged that they're practically unbearable.


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## DavidA

Faustian said:


> The purpose of course is to demonstrate how extremely pedantic the guild has become, and how difficult it is for anyone to break through in a environment that stifles inspiration and any sort of uniqueness and individuality.
> 
> But really, we're talking about a few minutes here. Hardly something that would really make much as far as time goes, in the context of 4 and a half hours. I find Wagner always pays back that investment of ones time; his operas are certainly long and complicated, but they are also intelligent, insightful, and deeply rewarding.
> 
> Of *course if you're largely numb to the the dramatic elements of the works and all you care about is the exciting music*, then yeah, makes sense that less would be more. But shortening his operas would hardly make them better works of art, indeed I think it would make them quite considerably less powerful.


Sorry, but where did I say that I only liked the 'exciting' bits? Feel free to disagree by all means but please read what I say rather than reading your own interpretation into it.


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## Faustian

If you're going to complain about being misinterpreted, its best not to misquote me in the process.

By "the exciting music", I really meant the music in general, not the exciting parts of the opera. Because if one doesn't connect with the story and characters and the dramatic methods that Wagner employs, and mostly just enjoys the music, it makes sense that they would be happy with cuts.


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## howlingfantods

DavidA said:


> you quote me as saying thngs I have not said in a way I've not said them! :lol:


Hm, not to toot my own horn but I think I captured your rhetorical style very accurately. Notice all the exclamation points?


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Hmmm Victor Gollancz's thoughts in Opera Magazine:
> 
> http://opera.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/september-1964/9/doubts-about-the-ring


_"But there is not only a too-muchness about the music of The Ring, there is a too-muchness about The Ring more generally. It is too vast in conception, too grand in design, too large in its attitudes, too epic in its emotions: the heights it climbs to are too high, the depths it descends to too deep. There is an air of hubris about it : its vastness is not a vastness ad majorem Dei gloriam as the Choral Symphony's is, but a vastness for its own sake. By 1936 the feeling of satiety that was becoming dominant for me in respect of the music, despite a few lovelinesses I could still enjoy without reservation and my pleasure in such magnificent singing, was spreading to the work in itself."

"Richard Wagner, on one side of his nature, was a man we should nowadays describe, in a rough and ready sort of way, as of fascist mentality (which did not come in with Hitler, or with Mussolini either), coloured by something essentially, if not exclusively, Teutonic ; and it is above all in The Ring that this side of his nature emerges. By a fascist mentality I mean a preference for war as against peace, for violence as against gentleness, for retaliation as against forgiveness: a glorification of strength and a contempt for weakness: an exaltation of health and a disdain for suffering: an aggrandizement of women, but only as handmaidens of men. And by Teutonism (not for a moment to be thought of as the mark of all or even of most Germans) I mean a predilection for vastness as against proportion, for cloudiness as against precision, for an inflated romanticism and a vague nobility, as well as a devotion, more rabid than among people in general (except perhaps Jews), to the old race and stock. Or say if you will that The Ring is the work of a pagan, in the unloveliest sense of the word. Or finally call it antichristian (and that an antichristian should have written Parsifal is another reason for my dislike of that counterfeit work)."

"I dislike The Ring, not because Wagner was (I repeat, on one side of him) a fascist, but because the work is packed with fascism...the spirit of The Ring, for all its pseudo-nobility, is the spirit of fascism."

"When I call The Ring immoral I mean that it glorifies evil: and I just do not want to watch evil being glorified four nights more or less running, and on three of them at inordinate length. And not, above all, that particular evil. How could I sit there and watch it with the gas ovens, the mass executions, the men and women digging their own vast communal grave burnt into my consciousness?"

"And now, having said all that, need I insist that, as I have tried to indicate already, I am not equating Wagner, from a moral point of view, with Hitler or his like? What I have said is that Wagner had a fascist side to him, and that this comes out in the general spirit of The Ring: I have not denied, nor would dream of denying, that he had another side to him too. He was capable of great tenderness, even in The Ring itself : he could write 'so kusst er die Gottheit von dir'. Nor have I suggested (I shall suggest the opposite) that what I find in The Ring I find in everything else that he wrote: I am merely concerned to explain why, for so many years now, The Ring, apart from all musical questions, has not been to my liking."
_

Thank you, Mr. Gollancz, for that honest confession. We are sorry that you are so disillusioned with things you formerly took pleasure in. But would you please excuse us now? We are eager to get back to Wagner's works, which speak so eloquently for themselves, and which we find tell us many things, many beautifully human things, you seem not to have noticed, or perhaps have forgotten since those days when a love for things greater than the compass of your own soul was still possible for you.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> The only operas I would issue a caveat for are Tannhauser and possibly Parsifal 2nd act where the seduction scenes can be kind of graphic.
> Especially in the Paris version of Tannhauser. You may prefer the Dresden version.
> 
> But it comes down to the production.
> Both have good endings though.


I just read the Parsifal synopsis in _Milton Cross' Complete Stores of the Great Operas_ and find not only the seduction scene unappealing, but also the story line is very confusing and convoluted, and frankly, a bit freaky with all the weird stuff going on. I don't find all the mythology stuff appealing. But Lohengrin seems much more tame in comparison. I'll read more about Lohengrin in the Milton Cross book as it seems more thorough than Wikipedia.

EDIT: Finished the Milton Cross synopsis, and decided that it is not that interesting to me and the ending is rather depressing. Also there is a magic involved not only of the witch, but presumably (so she says) also a part of the kingdom Lohengrin comes from.

But I did learn where the song, Here Comes the Bride (Treulich geführt) comes from. A pastor, whose church my family attended for many years, said people would sometimes ask for that to be played during their wedding service and he would refuse, said it was pagan. Well, I understand that. Keep it out of the formal church service, but it would not be a big deal in an opera.


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## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> Hm, not to toot my own horn but I think I captured your rhetorical style very accurately. Notice all the exclamation points?


By all means live with the misconception then. I know what I said and meant!


----------



## DavidA

Florestan said:


> I just read the Parsifal synopsis in _Milton Cross' Complete Stores of the Great Operas_ and find not only the seduction scene unappealing, but also the story line is very confusing and convoluted, and frankly, a bit freaky with all the weird stuff going on. I don't find all the mythology stuff appealing. But Lohengrin seems much more tame in comparison. I'll read more about Lohengrin in the Milton Cross book as it seems more thorough than Wikipedia.
> 
> EDIT: Finished the Milton Cross synopsis, and decided that it is not that interesting to me and the ending is rather depressing. Also there is a magic involved not only of the witch, but presumably (so she says) also a part of the kingdom Lohengrin comes from.
> 
> *But I did learn where the song, Here Comes the Bride (Treulich geführt) comes from. A* pastor, whose church my family attended for many years, said people would sometimes ask for that to be played during their wedding service and he would refuse, said it was pagan. Well, I understand that. Keep it out of the formal church service, but it would not be a big deal in an opera.


Never know why this is played at weddings as the wedding concerned ends in tragedy!


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## DavidA

Faustian said:


> If you're going to complain about being misinterpreted, its best not to misquote me in the process.
> 
> By "the exciting music", I really meant the music in general, not the exciting parts of the opera. Because if one doesn't connect with the story and characters and the dramatic methods that Wagner employs, and mostly just enjoys the music, it makes sense that they would be happy with cuts.


No you have me wrong again. I enjoy the parts I enjoy!


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Never know why this is played at weddings as the wedding concerned ends in tragedy!


DUH, Maybe because it's beautiful and a wedding march!

And it's not pagan if you don't wish it to be. It's what u make it.


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## DavidA

Itullian said:


> DUH, Maybe because it's beautiful and a wedding march!
> 
> And it's not pagan if you don't wish it to be. It's what u make it.


Nothng t do with it being Pagan. Read my reason!


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## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Never know why this is played at weddings as the wedding concerned ends in tragedy!


It's a piece of music for goodness sake. If you like it have it at whatever ceremony you fancy. I had The Beatles Long and Winding Road, played at mine. The music is not pagan in as much as no music is pagan. It's just music. It has no moral or religious being of its own until stupid people twist it for their own warped reasons. Sometimes the human race just baffles me.


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> It's a piece of music for goodness sake. If you like it have it at whatever ceremony you fancy. I had The Beatles Long and Winding Road, played at mine. The music is not pagan in as much as no music is pagan. It's just music. It has no moral or religious being of its own until stupid people twist it for their own warped reasons. Sometimes the human race just baffles me.


Music can't be pagan, nor can it be Christian. But music can have associations. The wedding march music is associated with Wagner's opera, though many probably have no idea of it's origin (I didn't until yesterday). Here is a pastor explaining why a Christian does not want this wedding march played at their wedding, and this pastor thinks these Wagner operas are cool. He just feels the associations with the music send the wrong message.


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## Barbebleu

Lohengrin is the son of Parsifal, a knight of the Grail, the cup that, according to Christian tradition, held Jesus' blood. How can Lohengrin and Elsa's wedding march be anything else but Christian. The fact that their marriage didn't work out had nothing to do with the wedding march. If you stop playing every piece of music that was used for failed marriages you will have very quiet ceremonies.


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Lohengrin is the son of Parsifal, a knight of the Grail, the cup that, according to Christian tradition, held Jesus' blood. How can Lohengrin and Elsa's wedding march be anything else but Christian. The fact that their marriage didn't work out had nothing to do with the wedding march. If you stop playing every piece of music that was used for failed marriages you will have very quiet ceremonies.


Not sure what you mean by music played for every failed marriage, but the failure of a marriage does not taint the music that was used at the wedding. In the case of Wagner's wedding march, the associations come from the opera before someone used it in their marriage.

As for the grail cup and Christian tradition, that seems to me a Catholic tradition. The Lutheran church has no tradition of this grail cup, nor of relics in general.


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## Barbebleu

Are Catholics not Christian? My point was that people have different things played either before, during or after their wedding ceremony. If their marriage doesn't work out you can hardly hold the music responsible. In the opera, Lohengrin, in what way does the music for Elsa' processional impact on her betrayal of - spoiler alert - her vow to Lohengrin not to ask him his name.?


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Are Catholics not Christian? My point was that people have different things played either before, during or after their wedding ceremony. If their marriage doesn't work out you can hardly hold the music responsible. In the opera, Lohengrin, in what way does the music for Elsa' processional impact on her betrayal of - spoiler alert - her vow to Lohengrin not to ask him his name.?


I am just saying that these traditions are not embraced by all of Christianity, but seem to be limited to one group. Maybe the wedding march predated Wagner's opera? I don't know, but there is enough baggage from the opera on that piece that many pastors avoid it, even though most people don't know about the baggage. Regardless, the whole idea of inserting some popular piece of music is foreign to the church that I know.

I suppose if a major celebrity were to have a wedding, use a piece of church music, then desecrate the marriage, and the public perception of the whole thing gave people a bad feeling about that piece of music, then that music might carry that baggage forward. But your average failed marriage is not going to do that.

Hey wow! Are we off topic or what. Maybe we need a new thread in the Religious Music forum?


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> I am just saying that these traditions are not embraced by all of Christianity, but seem to be limited to one group. Maybe the wedding march predated Wagner's opera? I don't know, but there is enough baggage from the opera on that piece that many pastors avoid it, even though most people don't know about the baggage. Regardless, the whole idea of inserting some popular piece of music is foreign to the church that I know.
> 
> I suppose if a major celebrity were to have a wedding, use a piece of church music, then desecrate the marriage, and the public perception of the whole thing gave people a bad feeling about that piece of music, then that music might carry that baggage forward. But your average failed marriage is not going to do that.
> 
> Hey wow! Are we off topic or what. Maybe we need a new thread in the Religious Music forum?


It is so easy to wander off-piste in these threads. Yep, time to get back on course, whatever it was. My number one Wagner opera would be Gotterdammerung. Need to have a think about number two.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> It's a piece of music for goodness sake. If you like it have it at whatever ceremony you fancy. I had The Beatles Long and Winding Road, played at mine. The music is not pagan in as much as no music is pagan. It's just music. It has no moral or religious being of its own until stupid people twist it for their own warped reasons. Sometimes the human race just baffles me.


I don't think people are stupid if they associate Wagner's wedding march with a tragedy as it's what the composer wrote! As for pagan. BTW who said it was pagan? I certainly didn't.


----------



## mountmccabe

Florestan said:


> Music can't be pagan, nor can it be Christian. But music can have associations. The wedding march music is associated with Wagner's opera, though many probably have no idea of it's origin (I didn't until yesterday). Here is a pastor explaining why a Christian does not want this wedding march played at their wedding, and this pastor thinks these Wagner operas are cool. He just feels the associations with the music send the wrong message.


I, too, have heard of people/ministers/church denominations not wanting to use the Bridal Chorus due to non-Christian associations. Same with or the Wedding March from _A Midsummer's Night Dream_, for that matter. Turns out people have really strong feelings about weddings and religion!

To move back back on topic, please do not consider that a reasonable summary of the plot of _Lohengrin_. I can hardly believe that someone that claims to like the opera and Wagner would write that dismissive mess.


----------



## Barbebleu

So much for staying on topic then.

Number two would be Die Meistersinger. I'll think about three.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Florestan said:


> As for the grail cup and Christian tradition, that seems to me a Catholic tradition. The Lutheran church has no tradition of this grail cup.


Neither did the Catholics, at least not until long after Chrétien de Troyes invented the grail in his mid-12th century romance _Li Contes del Graal, ou Le Roman de Perceval_ ("The Story of the Grail, or The Romance of Perceval/Parsifal").


----------



## DavidA

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Neither did the Catholics, at least not until long after Chrétien de Troyes invented the grail in his mid-12th century romance _Li Contes del Graal, ou Le Roman de Perceval_ ("The Story of the Grail, or The Romance of Perceval/Parsifal").


Yes I remember an expert on Grail literature explaining it to be complete fiction, which it is of course.


----------



## Woodduck

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Neither did the Catholics, at least not until long after Chrétien de Troyes invented the grail in his mid-12th century romance _Li Contes del Graal, ou Le Roman de Perceval_ ("The Story of the Grail, or The Romance of Perceval/Parsifal").


The concept of the Holy Grail as the cup of the Last Supper, like so many Christian traditions, was an attempt to Christianize pagan legends. The roots of the Grail stories are traced by many scholars back to Celtic mythology, in which various objects, including stones and basins, are portrayed as having magical and life-giving properties. Interestingly, in the version of the Parsifal story on which Wagner based his own, the _Parzival_ by Wolfram von Eschenbach, the Grail is not a cup but a stone, possibly a remnant of its pre-Christian origins.

Although Chretien's was the first of the Grail romances, it was in Robert de Boron's _Joseph d'Arimathie_ that the Grail is first described in its fully Christianized form. In this tale, according to Wiki, Joseph acquires the cup of the Last Supper, in which he collects Christ's blood upon his removal from the cross. Joseph is thrown in prison, where Christ visits him and explains the mysteries of the blessed cup. Upon his release Joseph gathers his in-laws and other followers and travels to the west, and founds a dynasty of Grail keepers that eventually includes Perceval/Parsifal.


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## SixFootScowl

Woodduck said:


> The concept of the Holy Grail as the cup of the Last Supper, like so many Christian traditions, was an attempt to Christianize pagan legends.


I think the Christmas tree in Christian homes is probably a similar thing. I think Martin Luther reinterpreted the trees significance into a Christian theme. Personally, and having been raised in a non-religious home, when I became a Christian in my late 20s, I never was that thrilled about a tree and would not have one now but that my wife and kids like it. Not that I think it is bad, I just don't appreciate it from a Christian perspective.

Hey, i guess we more or less re-topic'ed this thread. No matter, so long as we have civil discussion.

As for the ranking of Wagner's operas, it would be better to run a poll IMO (Hey Itullian, want to start a poll on that?). Maybe should rank all of his operas (see list here)


----------



## DavidA

U


gardibolt said:


> from Gollancz...
> 
> That's just silly.
> What happens as a consequence of the evil that's portrayed in the Ring?
> 
> Alberich steals the Rhinegold. He ends up forswearing love and then having his riches stolen from him, leaving him in misery and impotent rage. He isn't killed, but he's certainly made to suffer, as he's denied the one thing he wants most.
> Wotan steals the Ring and the Tarnhelm and Alberich's gold to pay off Fasolt and Fafner. He is rewarded with a curse that ends in the destruction of him and his fellow gods, and everything they've built, despite his machinations over several operas to fend off that curse; even Fricka sees early on that he's on a fool's errand.
> Fasolt takes the Ring for himself. Fafner kills him. Siegfried kills Fafner
> Siegmund kills wedding guests. He in turn is killed.
> Siegmund and Sieglinde commit incest, incidentally betraying the hospitality of Hunding, who has agreed to let Siegmund spend the night in his home out of the storm. Hunding kills Siegmund, and Sieglinde apparently dies in or shortly after childbirth.
> Hunding avenges the wedding guests, and the betrayal of his hospitality (arguably justifiable homicide--I'm not sure many juries would convict). Wotan strikes him dead anyway.
> Brünnhilde defies her father's commands; she is cursed to sleep in magic fire (personally I don't see her acts as evil but rather trying to divine his actual will as opposed to what he tells her, but if you want it to be considered evil, it's punished).
> Mime plots to kill Siegfried. Siegfried kills him.
> (true, Siegfried killing Fafner and Mime goes unpunished, but at least the latter is arguably self-defense, and legendary heroes do have a thing for killing dragons)
> Gunther's lust for Brünnhilde ends up with him being killed.
> Siegfried's betrayal of Brünnhilde is put down to the effects of the potion (a weak device, to be true, but clearly a signal that Siegfried should not be held accountable for the consequences of his actions) but he ends up dead at Hagen's hands anyway.
> Hagen's plotting with Gunther to get the Ring ends up with Hagen being drowned in a torrent of the Rhine; Brünnhilde's connivance with Hagen ends up with her husband dead and she committing suicide.
> Even Gutrune, who is relatively innocent in Wagner's telling of the tale, ends up dead of grief.
> 
> I think it's exceedingly moral. Pretty much anyone in the opera who does something immoral or evil receives severe punishment--not always at once, but eventually. How is it glorifying evil to demonstrate that while there may be a short-term benefit, in the long term the consequences of evil are serious and severe? Gollancz needs to separate Hitler from Wagner; they're not the same guy.


You have actually missed the point of what Gollancz was saying. But maybe another thread would be better to discuss it.


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> You have actually missed the point of what Gollancz was saying. But maybe another thread would be better to discuss it.


Gardibolt did not miss the point.

Point 1.) Gollancz says that the_ Ring_ glorifies evil. Gardibolt shows that it doesn't. Point 2.) Gollancz says that Wagner is fascistic, that the Ring is full of the "spirit of fascism," and that he can't help thinking of the holocaust when he watches it. That, as Gardibolt says, is Gollancz's problem, not ours.

I would suggest that the Hitler thing has been done to death and that there's no place where it's worth any more discussion. You brought Gollancz into this thread, so perhaps you'll be so kind as to escort him and his fascist obsessions out.


----------



## Pugg

Tannhäuser.
Tristan und Isolde
Die Walküre
Das Rheingold
Lohengrin
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Parsifal
Der Fliegende Holländer
Siegfried Götterdämmerung


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I'm just glad I don't have to do any tip-toeing around music, books, traditions or pretty much anything else anymore for fear that it might be pagan.....


----------



## SixFootScowl

Whelp, I am glad there are many and a great variety of operas out there to select from. I don't have to concern myself with what degree Wagner's operas are pagan or not, and there are pagan elements for sure, because the story lines don't interest me other than Meistersinger and the Hollander. If Lohengrin had a better ending I might pick up a copy on DVD. Might still pick up a copy if I run across one cheap (like garage sale). There are things I just don't care to see, such as seduction (Cosi, Don Giovanni, Carmen??), or violence such as in boxing or operas where people get stabbed and in bloody detail (my exception being the tastefully done defensive stabbing of Scarpia in the Act II Tosca with Callas).


----------



## The Conte

Florestan said:


> Whelp, I am glad there are many and a great variety of operas out there to select from. I don't have to concern myself with what degree Wagner's operas are pagan or not, and there are pagan elements for sure, because the story lines don't interest me other than Meistersinger and the Hollander. If Lohengrin had a better ending I might pick up a copy on DVD. Might still pick up a copy if I run across one cheap (like garage sale). There are things I just don't care to see, such as seduction (Cosi, Don Giovanni, Carmen??), or violence such as in boxing or operas where people get stabbed and in bloody detail (my exception being the tastefully done defensive stabbing of Scarpia in the Act II Tosca with Callas).


The particular operas we like (whether we are drawn to them because of a plot we identify with or music that enchants us in some way, or some other reason entirely) is a personal matter. However, I am interested why the plot of the Ring doesn't interest you: A number of individuals from different backgrounds (Alberich, Fafner, Wotan and Hagen) are interested in gaining wealth and power and are even prepared to sacrifice love to gain it. Power becomes their idol at the expense of love for themselves, other people or even a higher power than themselves. They cause untold woes to themselves and others around them and the curse they unleash against humanity can only be broken when one person (the child of a god) sacrifices all temporal power including their own life to redeem humanity. In other words they put love of others before their own life. The frame surrounding the picture may be pagan, but I wouldn't be surprised if you found much to enjoy in the art work in its central essence.

N.


----------



## Itullian

SiegendesLicht said:


> I'm just glad I don't have to do any tip-toeing around music, books, traditions or pretty much anything else anymore for fear that it might be pagan.....


Nether do I and I'm Catholic.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> The particular operas we like (whether we are drawn to them because of a plot we identify with or music that enchants us in some way, or some other reason entirely) is a personal matter. However, I am interested why the plot of the Ring doesn't interest you: A number of individuals from different backgrounds (Alberich, Fafner, Wotan and Hagen) are interested in gaining wealth and power and are even prepared to sacrifice love to gain it. Power becomes their idol at the expense of love for themselves, other people or even a higher power than themselves. They cause untold woes to themselves and others around them and the curse they unleash against humanity can only be broken when one person (the child of a god) sacrifices all temporal power including their own life to redeem humanity. In other words they put love of others before their own life. The frame surrounding the picture may be pagan, but I wouldn't be surprised if you found much to enjoy in the art work in its central essence.
> 
> N.


I think the main reason the Ring does not interest me is that I am not really into fantasy. The large presence of pagan elements/ magic is also a turn off to me (Biblically, there is no good magic). I like stories that are more realistic such as Fidelio, Donizetti's queens, La fille du Regiment, L'elisir d'amore, and perhaps William Tell (one I am scoping out right now but sadly is not well represented on DVD). I do think, from what I have read of the synopses (mainly Lohengrin and Parsifal), that these are well written operas with great stories for those who are more into fantasy. Also the "Christian" elements of these operas are so distorted from the reality of the Bible that they too are in the realm of fantasy, which is not necessarily bad so long as one is not taking them seriously.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Florestan said:


> I think the main reason the Ring does not interest me is that I am not really into fantasy.


I see it much more as an allegory than as fantasy. If you adopt the same mindset, it might help you get "into" the Ring a bit more - not that I'm suggesting you have to  On the contrary, Donizetti's fine by me!


----------



## SixFootScowl

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I see it much more as an allegory than as fantasy.


That does place an interesting perspective on the whole thing, and opens up a whole new dimension of consideration. Thanks!

P.S. the fact that I never took any serious literature courses in school may explain why I didn't see this obvious angle. Not that I will be running straight to the Wagner section of the DVD listings, but Lohengrin, at least, will remain on my scope as a potential future watch.


----------



## Sloe

Florestan said:


> That does place an interesting perspective on the whole thing, and opens up a whole new dimension of consideration. Thanks!
> 
> P.S. the fact that I never took any serious literature courses in school may explain why I didn't see this obvious angle. Not that I will be running straight to the Wagner section of the DVD listings, but Lohengrin, at least, will remain on my scope as a potential future watch.


If you see Lohengrin you should give Parsifal a chance too since it is the prequel.


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> (Biblically, there is no good magic).


So feeding five thousand people with a few fish and a few loaves or turning water into wine could not be considered "good magic" at all? Certainly turning people into pillars of salt would be considered as "bad magic". But in either case you would need to believe in magic!

I noticed also a on another thread that you are a fan of Der Fliegende Hollander. Is this tale not a fantasy based on the legend of a sailor who does a deal with the devil to get his ship round the Cape of Good Hope and dooms his crew to eternity as a ghost ship. Black magic surely.

Time I think to end religious references to the music of Wagner. You either like the music and the drama or you don't. No need to justify it with a tie in to any religious belief.

Number three Tristan.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> So feeding five thousand people with a few fish and a few loaves or turning water into wine could not be considered "good magic" at all? Certainly turning people into pillars of salt would be considered as "bad magic". But in either case you would need to believe in magic!
> 
> I noticed also a on another thread that you are a fan of Der Fliegende Hollander. Is this tale not a fantasy based on the legend of a sailor who does a deal with the devil to get his ship round the Cape of Good Hope and dooms his crew to eternity as a ghost ship. Black magic surely.
> 
> Time I think to end religious references to the music of Wagner. You either like the music and the drama or you don't. No need to justify it with a tie in to any religious belief.
> 
> Number three Tristan.


Acts of God are not magic. The Hollander did not cut a deal with the Devil in any libretto I have seen of that opera. He simply made an oath, and was held to it.


----------



## gellio

Barbebleu said:


> So feeding five thousand people with a few fish and a few loaves or turning water into wine could not be considered "good magic" at all? Certainly turning people into pillars of salt would be considered as "bad magic". But in either case you would need to believe in magic!
> 
> I noticed also a on another thread that you are a fan of Der Fliegende Hollander. Is this tale not a fantasy based on the legend of a sailor who does a deal with the devil to get his ship round the Cape of Good Hope and dooms his crew to eternity as a ghost ship. Black magic surely.
> 
> Time I think to end religious references to the music of Wagner. You either like the music and the drama or you don't. No need to justify it with a tie in to any religious belief.
> 
> Number three Tristan.


Hahaha. Good one. This is just silly.


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> Many thanks to all the recent posters (Itullian, SiegendesLicht, Woodduck, gardibolt) who have helped to enlighten me about Wagner's operas. Talk Classical is serving it's purpose. I will now confidently consider the other Wagner Operas, especially since it is the only way I can get to more DVDs with Waltraud Meier in them.  Not saying I will embrace any more of Wagner's operas, but I will sure look for a next one to get into and will be biased towards a performance on DVD that has Waltraud.


Please do. His operas are fantastic and I hope you give The Ring a chance. It doesn't glorify evil - not in the least.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> Please do. His operas are fantastic and I hope you give The Ring a chance. It doesn't glorify evil - not in the least.


As I said above, the fantasy stories are not of great interest to me. Call it allegory it is allegorical fantasy. Nonetheless, I will keep an open mind to Wagner's operas (especially since I have not read the synopses to all of them yet), but I am not in a rush to find new operas to listen to and am still savoring the Hollander opera too much to move on at this time. Besides that, I have several operas on DVD that I have not watched yet:

Mary Stuart (sung in English)
Roberto Devereaux
Flying Dutchman on You Tube (sung in English)
Flying Dutchman TV Movie
Dinorah

Then there is William Tell, which would be my next if there were a decent performance on DVD.

But maybe I should see if my library has a DVD of Lohengrin or look for a performance on You Tube with English subtitles.

Perhaps I also should read the thread, "Everything you wanted to know about the Ring Cycle but were afraid to ask"?


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> As I said above, the fantasy stories are not of great interest to me. Call it allegory it is allegorical fantasy. Nonetheless, I will keep an open mind to Wagner's operas (especially since I have not read the synopses to all of them yet), but I am not in a rush to find new operas to listen to and am still savoring the Hollander opera too much to move on at this time. Besides that, I have several operas on DVD that I have not watched yet:
> 
> Mary Stuart (sung in English)
> Roberto Devereaux
> Flying Dutchman on You Tube (sung in English)
> Flying Dutchman TV Movie
> Dinorah
> 
> Then there is William Tell, which would be my next if there were a decent performance on DVD.
> 
> But maybe I should see if my library has a DVD of Lohengrin or look for a performance on You Tube with English subtitles.
> 
> Perhaps I also should read the thread, "Everything you wanted to know about the Ring Cycle but were afraid to ask"?


Fair enough. Sadly, the Ring has ruined Wagner's other operas for me (save Tristan). Every time I listen to one of the other works I go right back to The Ring. Subject matter aside, the music and demands placed on the singers are simply unbelievable. It's magnificent. It took me years to love it, and I've listened to it for years, and every time I listen to it something new sticks out. It's simply my single favorite thing!


----------



## Barbebleu

Number four - Parsifal.


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Number four - Parsifal.


It will be hard to know what is on your list as you keep adding one more at a time and the elements of your list are spread over different pages of this thread.


----------



## Barbebleu

Perhaps when I have decided on my final running order I might put a final list. Not sure what the problem is here. To have a list at all, the minimum requirement would seem to at least have heard all ten operas.


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## SixFootScowl

By an interesting turn of events, I found the D'Oro Lohengrin set at Dearborn Music yesterday and pointed it out along with other CD sets as potential Christmas presents. Then my wife later purchased one for my Christmas gift, and it turned out to be Lohengrin. We open our gifts the day before Christmas so I am listening right now and all I can say is...

AWESOME! AWESOME! Totally AWESOME!

I have never heard opera like this. The voices taking the prominent role with the music relegated more or less to the background. Continuous speech (it seems) instead of arias with repetition. High drama. Absolutely fantastic! So being I am a Meier fan, I quickly located the Meier Lohengrin on DVD and ordered it.

Oh, and thanks all of you for encouraging me to step a little further into Wagner. He is amazing. Wrote most or all of his own librettos which I understand is unusual for an opera composer. Also, he seems to have been a huge innovator in the field of opera as was Beethoven in instrumental music.


----------



## Woodduck

Florestan said:


> By an interesting turn of events, I found the D'Oro Lohengrin set at Dearborn Music yesterday and pointed it out along with other CD sets as potential Christmas presents. Then my wife later purchased one for my Christmas gift, and it turned out to be Lohengrin. We open our gifts the day before Christmas so I am listening right now and all I can say is...
> 
> AWESOME! AWESOME! Totally AWESOME!
> 
> I have never heard opera like this. The voices taking the prominent role with the music relegated more or less to the background. Continuous speech (it seems) instead of arias with repetition. High drama. Absolutely fantastic! So being I am a Meier fan, I quickly located the Meier Lohengrin on DVD and ordered it.
> 
> Oh, and thanks all of you for encouraging me to step a little further into Wagner. He is amazing. Wrote most or all of his own librettos which I understand is unusual for an opera composer. Also, he seems to have been a huge innovator in the field of opera as was Beethoven in instrumental music.


Congratulations on taking that next step, Florestan. Yes, Wagner is amazing. He dared (listen to Patrick Stewart say this) "to boldly go where no man had gone before." Just keep us informed as you trek. We're enjoying it with you!


----------



## Itullian

Knew you'd like Lohengrin. 

The more you listen to it, the better it gets.


----------



## Itullian

Florestan said:


> By an interesting turn of events, I found the D'Oro Lohengrin set at Dearborn Music yesterday and pointed it out along with other CD sets as potential Christmas presents. Then my wife later purchased one for my Christmas gift, and it turned out to be Lohengrin. We open our gifts the day before Christmas so I am listening right now and all I can say is...
> 
> AWESOME! AWESOME! Totally AWESOME!
> 
> I have never heard opera like this. The voices taking the prominent role with the music relegated more or less to the background. Continuous speech (it seems) instead of arias with repetition. High drama. Absolutely fantastic! So being I am a Meier fan,* I quickly located the Meier Lohengrin on DVD and ordered it.*Oh, and thanks all of you for encouraging me to step a little further into Wagner. He is amazing. Wrote most or all of his own librettos which I understand is unusual for an opera composer. Also, he seems to have been a huge innovator in the field of opera as was Beethoven in instrumental music.


I hope it's a good production of it.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> I hope it's a good production of it.


It is the only one I could find with Waltraud Meier and that is what I wanted. If I like this one, I may go in for one of a more traditional staging.









The CD is a good one, live 1954, with Windgassen, Nilsson, Uhde, Varnay, Adam and Dieskau.


----------



## Itullian

Florestan said:


>


Don't know it, but does not look promising.


----------



## The Conte

Florestan said:


> It is the only one I could find with Waltraud Meier and that is what I wanted. If I like this one, I may go in for one of a more traditional staging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CD is a good one, live 1954, with Windgassen, Nilsson, Uhde, Varnay, Adam and Dieskau.


Now that you've discovered Lohengrin you will want to sample Tannhauser before long.

In the meantime these are my Lohengrin CD and DVD recommendations:
















Also available in the Wagner from the Met box set.









N.


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> By an interesting turn of events, I found the D'Oro Lohengrin set at Dearborn Music yesterday and pointed it out along with other CD sets as potential Christmas presents. Then my wife later purchased one for my Christmas gift, and it turned out to be Lohengrin. We open our gifts the day before Christmas so I am listening right now and all I can say is...
> 
> AWESOME! AWESOME! Totally AWESOME!
> 
> I have never heard opera like this. The voices taking the prominent role with the music relegated more or less to the background. Continuous speech (it seems) instead of arias with repetition. High drama. Absolutely fantastic! So being I am a Meier fan, I quickly located the Meier Lohengrin on DVD and ordered it.
> 
> Oh, and thanks all of you for encouraging me to step a little further into Wagner. He is amazing. Wrote most or all of his own librettos which I understand is unusual for an opera composer. Also, he seems to have been a huge innovator in the field of opera as was Beethoven in instrumental music.


Glad you are diving into Wagner. It's like crack. I cannot get enough. I think I spend more time looking for a new Ring recording than I do anything else. LOL. I'm obsessed. It's a fantastic world. You might want to try Die Walkure. It's the most human story in the Ring and some of the best music Wagner wrote.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Now that you've discovered Lohengrin you will want to sample Tannhauser before long.
> 
> In the meantime these are my Lohengrin CD and DVD recommendations:


Already have the Abbado set in my Amazon "save for later" holding area. It has great singers and Waltraud.
View attachment 79359


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> Glad you are diving into Wagner. It's like crack. I cannot get enough. I think I spend more time looking for a new Ring recording than I do anything else. LOL. I'm obsessed. It's a fantastic world. You might want to try Die Walkure. It's the most human story in the Ring and some of the best music Wagner wrote.


I already downloaded the free Ring download from Opera Depot. I won't be dipping into it any time soon, but I have it for future use.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Florestan said:


> I already downloaded the free Ring download from Opera Depot. I won't be dipping into it any time soon, but I have it for future use.


Good luck! It may do things to you that you would have never expected, but it will all be wonderful. I wish you a happy journey whether it is flying with the Dutchman or with the Valkyries


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> It is the only one I could find with Waltraud Meier and that is what I wanted. If I like this one, I may go in for one of a more traditional staging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CD is a good one, live 1954, with Windgassen, Nilsson, Uhde, Varnay, Adam and Dieskau.


This is actually a pretty good production of Lohengrin. As is the 1954 one.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> This is actually a pretty good production of Lohengrin. As is the 1954 one.


Thanks. Is the 1954 one with Waltraud?

The Abbado Lohengrin with Domingo (posted earlier by The Conte) look like it would be a great one too.


----------



## Itullian

My picks fwiw.........


----------



## The Conte

Itullian said:


> My picks fwiw.........


The Kempe on CD is a must. Buy it without fear of not liking it, because if you don't like it then it just means you have to keep listening to it until you do.

N.


----------



## Woodduck

The Conte said:


> The Kempe on CD is a must. Buy it without fear of not liking it, because if you don't like it then it just means you have to keep listening to it until you do.
> 
> N.


:lol: Two thumbs up. Christa Ludwig and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau are the greatest Ortrud and Telramund since Varnay and Uhde. Everyone else is really good too.


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> Thanks. Is the 1954 one with Waltraud?
> 
> The 1954 is too early for Meier but the cast is superb.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Florestan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Is the 1954 one with Waltraud?
> 
> The 1954 is too early for Meier but the cast is superb.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh right, duh. She is about my age, and I was born in '57.
> 
> Anyways, I am just going to take it slow and easy, continue listening to Lohengrin. I did put the free Ring download on an alternate MP3 player, a 2GB unit (it took up 3/4s of the player :lol and will listen to a CD worth every weekend day while my main player recharges in the late afternoon.
> 
> Ha ha, but I was scoping out complete Wagner opera sets last night. Just for kicks though. But I never thought it would be cool to have a composer's complete operas before and somehow with Wagner is it. but some sets don't have the first three (before the Hollander), perhaps for good reason. I found this set for a decent price, but most of the performances are older and while the Ring is 1990s it appears to have obscure performers.
Click to expand...


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> The 1954 is too early for Meier but the cast is superb.





Florestan said:


> Oh right, duh. She is about my age, and I was born in '57.


Indeed since Waltraud Meier was born in 1956........

The great 54 Lohengrin mentioned by Barbie is easy and cheap to get on ZYX Classics label $7 Amazon USA sellers


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Woodduck said:


> :lol: Two thumbs up. Christa Ludwig and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau are the greatest Ortrud and Telramund since Varnay and Uhde. Everyone else is really good too.


Second that. I love the Kempe recording too.


----------



## Woodduck

Florestan said:


> Barbebleu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh right, duh. She is about my age, and I was born in '57.
> 
> Anyways, I am just going to take it slow and easy, continue listening to Lohengrin. I did put the free Ring download on an alternate MP3 player, a 2GB unit (it took up 3/4s of the player :lol and will listen to a CD worth every weekend day while my main player recharges in the late afternoon.
> 
> Ha ha, but I was scoping out complete Wagner opera sets last night. Just for kicks though. But I never thought it would be cool to have a composer's complete operas before and somehow with Wagner is it. but some sets don't have the first three (before the Hollander), perhaps for good reason. I found this set for a decent price, but most of the performances are older and while the Ring is 1990s it appears to have obscure performers.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're hearing some of these operas for the first time, the rather elderly monaural versions in that 43-CD set may not be the best way to go. The price is great, some of the performances are fine, but some are mediocre and others don't look promising. Of the good ones, the _Lohengrin_ is an excellent Bayreuth recording and still one of the best, with the wonderful Eleanor Steber as Elsa and Varnay and Uhde as superb villains. The _Tristan_ is the classic Flagstad/Furtwangler which you'll have to hear eventually, the _Meistersinger_ is a fine old Bayreuth performance, and the _Parsifal_ is the first complete recording from Bayreuth under Knappertsbusch in 1951, a strong contender but slow and not to everyone's taste. The _Dutchman_ has a poor Senta, and the others I haven't heard, but many of the singers are obscure, especially in the _Ring _(where the heck did they dig _that_ up?). None of these recordings will have up-to-date sonics, and you do want to be able to hear the full glory of Wagner's orchestra. If I were you I'd consider this a possible supplement and go first to more modern recordings recommended by people here who have your best Wagnerian interests at heart.
> 
> My recommendations of good versions for first exposure, considering both performances and sound, are:
> 
> Dutchman: you seem to have enough of those already
> Tannhauser: Solti (Decca)
> Lohengrin: Kempe (EMI)
> Rheingold: Solti (Decca)
> Walkure: Leinsdorf (Decca)
> Siegfried: Solti (Decca)
> Gotterdammerung: Solti (Decca)
> Tristan und Isolde: Bohm/Bayreuth 1966 (DG)
> Meistersinger: Kubelik (Arts; also on Myto, but said to be poor-sounding)
> Parsifal: Knappertsbusch/Bayreuth 1962 (Philips)
> 
> Others may recommend other good versions, but these are all very strong representations of the operas.
Click to expand...


----------



## SixFootScowl

Woodduck said:


> Dutchman: you seem to have enough of those already


I am glad you said "seem to." I only have eight. :lol:

I appreciate the advice and am still tempted to buy the old mono set as it is dirt cheap, and as you say does have some good performances. It would be more like the Complete Beethoven set I purchased, more just to have it on hand, listen through and then perhaps get other recordings of some of the operas. (I don't use the Beethoven set much, but did listen through, and the real gem is it has Blomstedt's Leonore, the best recording of the early Fidelio opera.) Mono is actually good for me because I often listen on an earbud (right channel only) and so no loss of the other channel.

I am copying your recommendation list into a folder on my computer for future reference though. Thanks!


----------



## SixFootScowl

DarkAngel said:


>


Nice cover photo of Waltraud. I should look up that issue of Opera News.

I first saw Waltraud in a DVD of the opera Martha where she played Nancy at a fairly young age and a very different type of opera than she made here career on:


----------



## The Conte

Florestan, have you got all of Meier's complete Wagner operas on CD? They are very good recordings of the operas in any case and in good modern sound. If you decide that you like the operas beyond Dutchman and Lohengrin, you can then explore further recordings.

Woodduck's list has what are generally considered the classic choices for each recording, but as you like Waltraud that might be a good place for you to start as well.

Lohengrin: DG conducted by Abbado (see above)
Tannhauser: Teldec conducted by Barenboim / EMI conducted by Haitink
The Ring: Warner Classics conducted by Barenboim (She's Waltraute, but it's a great Ring)
Die Walkuere: EMI conducted by Haitink (for her Fricka)
Tristan: Teldec conducted by Barenboim
Parsifal: Teldec conducted by Barenboim

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Florestan, have you got all of Meier's complete Wagner operas on CD? They are very good recordings of the operas in any case and in good modern sound. If you decide that you like the operas beyond Dutchman and Lohengrin, you can then explore further recordings.
> 
> Woodduck's list has what are generally considered the classic choices for each recording, but as you like Waltraud that might be a good place for you to start as well.
> 
> Lohengrin: DG conducted by Abbado (see above)
> Tannhauser: Teldec conducted by Barenboim / EMI conducted by Haitink
> The Ring: Warner Classics conducted by Barenboim (She's Waltraute, but it's a great Ring)
> Die Walkuere: EMI conducted by Haitink (for her Fricka)
> Tristan: Teldec conducted by Barenboim
> Parsifal: Teldec conducted by Barenboim
> 
> N.


Thanks. Yes I do like Meier, and will see where it goes. Lohengrin opera on its way for a start. Thanks for the further recommendations. I already have two Meistersingers and several Hollanders but she does not (never has?) sing in those two operas.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Well, my Lohengrin disk was defective and so was returned for refund. Meanwhile I decided, against all better advice, to grab the budget set that I linked in an earlier post. It gives me nearly the same Lohengrin (one year off and a couple singers are different). Also an early and interesting Hollander. And it does not prevent me from buying some of the recommended sets if I so desire.

By the way, my plan to listen to one disk a day on weekends for the Ring cycle failed. I could not stop listening yesterday and today am wrapping it up. Wow, what an amazing work and it will only get better on further listenings.


----------



## Itullian

Best live version imho................


----------



## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> Best live version imho................


Well, I do like Meier, but Silja is wonderful also. Silja is the best Senta I have heard on the Hollander, and I have her in a Fidelio too. I'll add this one to my potential purchase list. Thanks.


----------



## daviddfreeman

1. Lohengrin
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Tannhäuser
4. Parsifal
5. Die Walküre
6. Das Rheingold
7. Götterdämmerung 
8. Die Meistersinger
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Siegfried

For me, nothing is more genius than Lohengrin. Hands down the greatest opera ever written.


----------



## Barbebleu

Nice to see this thread resurrected. Let the revels begin (again!).


----------



## amfortas

Did I contribute to this thread already? Can't remember. 

Oh well . . . as of today:

1. Walküre
2. Parsifal
3. Tristan
4. Meistersinger
5. Siegfried
6. Götterdämmerung
7. Lohengrin
8. Holländer
9. Rheingold
10. Tannhäuser


----------



## cheftimmyr

Such a tough one... As of right now:

1 Parsifal
2 Lohengrin
3 Walkure
4 Rheingold
5 Tristan
6 Meistersinger
7 Siegfried
8 Gotterdamerung
9 Tannhauser
10 Hollander


----------



## Pugg

daviddfreeman said:


> 1. Lohengrin
> 2. Tristan und Isolde
> 3. Tannhäuser
> 4. Parsifal
> 5. Die Walküre
> 6. Das Rheingold
> 7. Götterdämmerung
> 8. Die Meistersinger
> 9. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 10. Siegfried
> 
> For me, nothing is more genius than Lohengrin. Hands down the greatest opera ever written.


Welcome to this forum, enjoy your stay :tiphat:


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith

1. Lohengrin. Like without reservation.

2. Tannhaeuser. Probably the Wagner opera with the highest proportion of great bits - the hymn to the evening star, Elisabeth's prayer, the pilgrims' chorus, Dich teure Halle, the entry of the guests. Still essentially a number opera (sshhh!). The Venus scene and the song contest drag, but the former is redeemed by the charming scene with the shepherd and the latter by the Act II finale.

3. Meistersinger. Very long and, for a comedy, not very funny, but warm and human(e) in a way most of Wagner's operas aren't. The quintet is lovely, but I could do without the gibe at Tancredi, Sachs's speech at the end, or pretty much everything involving Beckmesser.

4. Der Ring. An impressive undertaking, but length doesn't necessarily mean greatness. Some truly sublime bits - but needs heavy editing.

5. Der fliegende Hollaender. Short, fast moving and tuneful.

6. Parsifal. Too much philosophy / introspection and not enough action, but some beautiful music: the prelude, the transformation music, the Grail chorus, Nur eine Waffe taugt.

7. Das Liebesverbot. Written under the influence of Auber and Herold. Rousing overture, lots of big ensembles, some delightful passages, noisy but FUN. Could go several places higher up.

8. Die Feen. Only heard it once; silly, German Romantic plot but charming music. Must listen again. 

9. Rienzi. Heavy, bombastic, monotonous and not remotely Meyerbeerian; if anything, it's third-rate German Spontini. (And I say this as someone who likes La vestale !) The overture, the Silbergroschen section of the Act III finale and the prayer are fine.

10. Tristan und Isolde. Very little here I like, either musically or as an opera. The hothouse atmosphere, the surging orchestra and the tunelessness pall. I originally wrote that parts of the Liebesnacht are lovely, but the libretto is bunkum; I'm listening to it now, and it's awful. The prelude, now that I've listened to it, isn't bad, though; didn't Bernard Herrmann lift it for Vertigo?


----------



## znapschatz

I'll play  .

My vote is for the *Der Ring*, which I consider one work rather than 4 separate operas. I very seldom listen to them as single pieces, but set aside time to listen to all, which means a major investment in time, usually a weekend every couple of years. The last I saw it was the "Live at the Met" production with Bryn Terfel, Stephanie Blythe, Eric Owens et al and loved the music, thrilled at the singing, HATED the damned mechanical stage, a colossal waste of resources for an inferior venue. Still angry about it  .

Next comes *Tristan und Isolde*, normally not an opera I like much, but it was the debut performance of Birgit Nielsen, my fave soprano at the time (late 1950s) temporarily eclipsing Renata Tebaldi, my favorite of all time. I heard it on radio in the squad room of my barracks during basic training at Fort Knox along with 5 others in my company, including one who was in civilian life an opera singer.

I like *Der Fliegende Hollander*, and that's about all I can comment on because I haven't heard more than excerpts from any of the others.


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## Meyerbeer Smith

And on listening, I would put Liebesverbot very high among Wagner's works. I like it more than Parsifal or Tristan, possibly better than Dutchman.


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## MAS

1. Lohengrin
2. Gotterdammerung
3. Die Walkure
4. Tannhauser 
5. Siegfried
6. Das Rheingold
7. Die Fliegende Hollander
I agree with Simon Templar that Wagner could have used heavy editing...but some of the music is sublime!


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## damianjb1

Using that formula, my list would be,

1. Parsifal - 10
2. Tristan und Isolde - 10
3. Meistersinger - 10

4. Die Walkure - 9
5. Lohengrin - 9

6. Tannhauser - 8
7. Das Rheingold - 8

8. Der Fliegende Hollander - 7

9. Gotterdamerung - 6

10. Siegfried - 5



Chi_townPhilly said:


> If I were to assign numbers according to my personal taste, it would be something like this:
> 
> (t) 1. *Die Walküre*- 10
> (t) 1. *Tristan und Isolde*- 10
> (t) 1. *Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg*- 10
> (t) 1. *Götterdämmerung*- 10
> (t) 1. *Parsifal*- 10
> 
> (t) 2. *Tannhäuser*- 9.95
> (t) 2. *Das Rheingold*- 9.95
> (t) 2. *Siegfried*- 9.95
> 
> 3. Der Fliegende Holländer- 9.8
> 4. Lohengrin- 9.75
> 
> In all earnestness, though, we could simply go to the '100 recommended operas' thread,
> and see where each Wagner work finished-
> 
> 1. _Der Ring des Nibelungen_
> 2. _Tristan und Isolde_
> 10. _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_
> 13. _Parsifal_
> 21. _Lohengrin_
> 28. _Tanhäuser_
> 42. _Der Fliegende Holländer_
> 
> If splitting the _Ring_ operas into their component parts,
> it then becomes an issue of where a person would place each one in relation to the other six...


----------



## mountmccabe

_Tristan und Isolde_ is trying to creep up my list. I've spent a good deal of time with it over the summer and I find it more and more moving and impressive and perfect.

I'm going to give a little bit of time, but I think I'm due for a revision to my rankings.


----------



## Sonata

1) Gotterdammerung
2) Das Rheingold
3) Lohengrin
4) Tannhauser
5) Flying Dutchman
6) Parsifal
7) Meistersinger
8) Walkure
9) Tristan und Isolde
10) Siegfried.


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## Sonata

Sonata said:


> 1) Gotterdammerung
> 2) Das Rheingold
> 3) Lohengrin
> 4) Tannhauser
> 5) Flying Dutchman
> 6) Parsifal
> 7) Meistersinger
> 8) Walkure
> 9) Tristan und Isolde
> 10) Siegfried.


This requires some retooling. Wagner's work is so dense, it may take a few years to settle on a "sure" ranking. If ever. The length of the operas make it hard because I think of "favorite excerpts" here and there versus whole operas.
Nevertheless, here we go:

1) Lohengrin.
2) Gotterdammerung
3) Parsifal
4) Meistersinger
5) Das Rheingold
6) Flying Dutchman
7) Tannhauser
8) Walkure
9) Tristan Und Isolde
10)Siegfried

My rankings changed for a couple reasons. I watched Lohengrin on a video which helped solidify my enoyment. It was the first opera of Wagner's that really clicked with me without extensive work to get there. It's consistently melodic which is important for me.

Parsifal never really had a full listen before. I finally got the Karajan I was wanting and I really liked it, more so than Boulez. Similarily while I like Meistersinger before, Karajan's Meister mesmerized me. I was less impatient with the middle section of the opera than I was with me other (also otherwise enjoyable) Eugene Jochum version. Karajan sadly wasn't able to compel me to new heights with Tristan Und Isolde. I don't outright dislike it. I might even like it....but there seems to still be quite a lot of effort involved in it.

The flipflop of Dutchman and Tannhauser: while the opening act music of Tannhauser blew me away last time I listened to it, I am more compelled by the story of Dutchman. These may easily flip back and forth through time


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## Morton

This is my first post, but Wagner is a bit of an obsession with me, so here goes.

I find it impossible to split the top four, so in chronological order;

1, Tristan und Isolde
2, Die Meistersinger Von Nurnburg.
3, Gotterdammerung
4, Parsifal 
A good performance of any of these is about as good as it gets for me.
Also they seem to inhabit such distinct and diverse sound worlds, it is hard to believe they were written by one man.

Then only a little way behind & again , I can't decide between these two.
5, Die Walkure
6, Siegfried (although I think the role of Siegfried is almost impossible to sing in a live performance).

7, Das Rheingold 
8, Lohengrin 
9, Dutchman (in the one act version)
10, Tannhauser

Basically I think that Wagner generally got better as he got older, but by the time he had got to Tristan he was operating at a level which, for me, defies criticism.


----------



## raycope

I have been a card-carrying Wagnerian since 1980 and have heard the Ring six times live end-to-end. Here's my personal favorites, but in my opinion they're all masterpieces:

1. Parsifal (Always buries me. I marvel at how moving it can be. Nothing quite like it in all of classical music).
2. Lohengrin (Great symphonic pieces and vocals, quintets, and quartets on a scale with Verdi. Wall-to-wall music, as my friend used to say).
3. Die Meistersinger (Fantastic musically throughout, and very funny and entertaining story-wise when performed right).
4. The Ring (must be taken as a whole IMHO. The highlights, e.g., Siegfried's Death, Valkyries, Magic Fire Scene, Brunhilda's Farewell, are .. (too many superlatives to express in English)). If you're into the motifs, I strongly recommend Deryck Cooke's Introduction to Wagner's Ring before listening to the whole opera).
5. Tristan and Isolde (Besides the obvious Liebestod and Overture, I really love the Night Music in Act II, the Act III Prelude, the Shepard's Lament, and King Mark's moving tribute to Tristan at the end of Act III).
6. Tannhauser (Very performance sensitive, saw one in SF that was unredeemable,. but when performed well, one of my favorites, music-wise and story-wise. I will never forget Gwyneth Jones' performance at Bayreuth shown on public television .ca 1980. It really got me into the Wagner operas.).
7. The Flying Dutchman (another one that has be staged well to fully appreciate.)
8. I love the Rienzi Overture but have never seen or heard the whole opera.


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## SiegendesLicht

A great big welcome to both obsessed and card-carrying Wagnerians upthread :tiphat:


----------



## raycope

Canceling my second post as it was just a dup of the first. Sorry about that (forgive newbie).


----------



## ma7730

1. _Tristan und Isolde_ Needs no introduction. Every single second is seems momentous.
2. _Parsifal_ So different from _Tristan_, but so beautiful in a different way. It's so subtle, but at the same time there's so much emotion. I really can't describe it other than that it's amazing.
3. _Lohengrin_ My introduction to Wagner. Of course, it's fairly "conservative" Wagner, but I still think it has some of the most beautiful music of any opera.
4. _The Ring_ Of course I appreciate his extensive use of leitmotivs, and there's lots of good music in it. On the other hand, it doesn't seem as "densely packed" with good music the way the aforementioned operas are, for me. For me, all of the individual operas within the Ring have roughly the same ranking, probably with Gotterdammerung on top, though. 
5. _Die Meistersinger_ Don't get me wrong there are certainly beautiful moments. The "prize song" is gorgeous, as is the quintet. However, a lot of it does not interest me very much. Also, it's so not funny. And really long.
6. _Tannhäuser_ Like _Die Meistersinger_, there are certainly good moments (pilgrims chorus, o du mein holder abenstern) but a lot of it sounds unformed compared to his later masterworks (and even Lohengrin). 
7. _Fliegender Holländer_ To be honest, I know very little about tit. Of course I've heard the overture (which I'm not as in love with as much as everyone seems to be) and I like Senta's ballad. Perhaps I'll give it more of a chance this weekend.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

I often find these kind of rankings invidious (I refuse to play the silly greatest composer game), but still I'll have a go.

1. _Parsifal._ Musical perfection; the only one of Wagner's works I wouldn't want to change a note of. If _Tristan_ inaugurated a harmonic revolution, then _Parsifal_ was equally far reaching for its innovations in texture and the use of musical space. The famously economical orchestration is full of subtlety, e.g. the trumpet doubled by all four oboes for the Grail Motive at the beginning. Without _Parsifal_, the music of Debussy and all that came after could hardly have existed.

2. _Tristan und Isolde._ Considering all the possible choices the new chromatic language opened up, what continually astonishes me is the absolute rightness of Wagner's harmony and voice leading.

3. _Die Walküre._ There are how many motives in the Ring? 178 by one count. Not one of them is a dud. To me, _Walküre_ is the part of the tetralogy whose musical inspiration is most consistent (with Wotan's monologue perhaps excepted).

4. _Götterdämmerung_ 
5. _Lohengrin_
6. _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_
7. _Siegfried_
8. _Das Rheingold_
9. _Der fliegende Holländer_
10._Tannhäuser_


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## hpowders

Not a fan anymore but I used to be:

1. Götterdämmerung

2. Die Meistersinger

3. Parsifal

4. Die Walküre

5. Tristan und Isolde

6. Siegfried

7. Das Rheingold

The rest never interested me when I was an avid listener of Wagner operas.


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## Morton

hpowders said:


> Not a fan anymore but I used to be:
> 
> Really, what happened?


----------



## mountmccabe

Revised!


Die Walküre
Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal
Götterdämmerung
Das Rheingold
Siegfried
Der fliegende Holländer
Lohengrin
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Tannhäuser

The top four are all but tied. _Siegfried_ has risen quite a bit in my estimation, Lohengrin has dropped the most since the last revision.


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## gellio

_Siegfried_ is THE best!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

ma7730 said:


> 5. _Die Meistersinger_ ...Also, it's so not funny. And really long.


Depending on the production, _Meistersinger_ really is a funny opera. I took my then 15-year-old nephew to a Welsh National Opera production in 2010, and he was frequently laughing out loud, especially in Acts II and III. He wasn't the only one; it was a joyous performance.


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## Pugg

gellio said:


> _Siegfried_ is THE best!


Really.......?


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

gellio said:


> _Siegfried_ is THE best!


I'm with you there. I know I'm in a minority, but it's always been my favourite single "episode" in the _Ring_. I love the whole _Ring_, of course, but _Siegfried_ holds a special place in my affections.


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## mountmccabe

I'm really being won over to its charms. Seeing that performance by a small company about a month ago really helped. As did listening to it just before and after.

It still strikes me as quite difficult to pull off right, but I find that of a lot of operas that lean towards comedy.


----------



## RichieWagon

Here goes... but all of Wagner's operas are divine, so a definitive ranking is absolutely impossible!

1. Götterdämmerung
2. Siegfried
3. Das Rheingold
4. Die Walküre
5. Tannhäuser
6. Tristan und Isolde
7. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
8. Parsifal
9. Lohengrin
10. Die Fliegende Holländer


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## bz3

Hmmm I don't believe I've posted in one of these yet so here goes. I'd say I'm only familiar enough with probably 4 or 5 of his operas to truly feel comfortable giving an opinion but I've heard them all at least once in a sitting, and more in parts.


Parsifal
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Tristan und Isolde
Siegfried
Das Rheingold
Lohengrin
Tannhäuser
Der fliegende Holländer


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## interestedin

Right now;

1. Parsifal
2. Tristan
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Meistersinger
5. Holländer
6. Walküre
7. Lohengrin
8. Tannhäuser
9. Siegfried
10. Rheingold


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## Azol

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Parsifal
3. Die Walküre

These are my Top 3 and I do not see any reason to try and classify all the rest. I can add that Tannhäuser would be pretty low on that list.


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## josquindesprez

1 Meistersinger
2 Tristan und Isolde
3 Siegfried
4 Götterdämmerung
5 Rheingold
6 Walküre
7 Parsifal
8 Lohengrin
9 Flying Dutchman
10 Tannhäuser


----------



## SixFootScowl

I now have eight of the top ten, all but Tristan und Isolde and Tannhäuser. It would be very difficult to try ranking them as they are all great.


----------



## Barbebleu

My new ranking order

1= Der Fliegende Holländer, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, Der Ring des Nibelüngen and Parsifal.:tiphat:


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## MAS

1. Lohengrin
2. Die Walkure 
3. Gotterdammerung
4. Siegfried
5. Das Rheingold
6. Tannhäuser 
7. Hollander
These three rank last: Tristan, Meistersinger, Parsifal, all GREAT BORES, interminable. No offense to anyone.

Sorry, no umlauts!


----------



## Barbebleu

MAS said:


> 1. Lohengrin
> 2. Die Walkure
> 3. Gotterdammerung
> 4. Siegfried
> 5. Das Rheingold
> 6. Tannhäuser
> 7. Hollander
> These three rank last: Tristan, Meistersinger, Parsifal, all GREAT BORES, interminable. No offense to anyone.
> 
> Sorry, no umlauts!


No offence taken but WE know where you live!! Keep looking over your shoulder for a duck made of wood, an angel in black and a man with a blue beard. :lol:


----------



## MAS

Barbebleu said:


> No offence taken but WE know where you live!! Keep looking over your shoulder for a duck made of wood, an angel in black and a man with a blue beard. :lol:


I've been warned !


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> No offence taken but WE know where you live!! Keep looking over your shoulder for a duck made of wood, an angel in black and a man with a blue beard. :lol:


Humble correction: a duck that lives in the woods. A duck made of wood is a fake duck. MAS has nothing to fear from decoys.


----------



## Barbebleu

If fake news wasn't bad enough I've introduced a fake duck into the mix!!


----------



## The Conte

Woodduck said:


> Humble correction: a duck that lives in the woods. A duck made of wood is a fake duck. MAS has nothing to fear from decoys.


You're all quackers!

N.


----------



## The Conte

I should have another go at ranking these and then compare with my previous list. So this is in order of my personal favourites, not how great I consider the operas per se.

1) Walkuere
2) Goetterdaemerung
3) Tannhaeuser
4) Parsifal
5) Rheingold
6) Tristan
7) Lohengrin
8) Siegfried
9) Meistersinger
10) Hollaender

Now to go back and check with what I posted previously.

N.


----------



## The Conte

Fascinating!

Parsifal has gone up (which is what I would have expected) and Meistersinger has gone down (I've started to get bored with it). I'm surprised by Tannhaeuser and Siegfried, but I grouped the ring operas all together as one last time.

1. Der Ring
a) Goetterdaemerung
b) Die Walkuere
c) Das Rheingold
d) Siegfried
5. Tristan und Isolde
6. Die Meistersinger
7. Parsifal
8. Tannhaeuser
9. Lohengrin
10. Der Fligende Hollander

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Do we need a Knockdown thread on Wagner Operas?

(or was I supposed to post this in Stupid Thread Ideas?)


----------



## interestedin

Florestan said:


> Do we need a Knockdown thread on Wagner Operas?
> 
> (or was I supposed to post this in Stupid Thread Ideas?)


No, we don't need one. But it would be fun to have one.


----------



## Barbebleu

interestedin said:


> No, we don't need one. But it would be fun to have one.


No it wouldn't. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


----------



## The Conte

Florestan said:


> Do we need a Knockdown thread on Wagner Operas?
> 
> (or was I supposed to post this in Stupid Thread Ideas?)


Sorry, but I just can't resist asking, what's a 'knockdown thread'?

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Sorry, but I just can't resist asking, what's a 'knockdown thread'?
> 
> N.


I was slightly off, it is knockout survival thread. Here is one of many that you can find in the Classical Music subform of polls (even though these are not polls, they sort of mimic polls in a reverse sort of way, i think):
The CEO of 20th Century Classical Music - A Knockout Survival Game (Round Four)


----------



## The Conte

Florestan said:


> I was slightly off, it is knockout survival thread. Here is one of many that you can find in the Classical Music subform of polls (even though these are not polls, they sort of mimic polls in a reverse sort of way, i think):
> The CEO of 20th Century Classical Music - A Knockout Survival Game (Round Four)


Sounds like a great idea! I must be some sort of degenerate!

:tiphat:
N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Sounds like a great idea! I must be some sort of degenerate!
> 
> :tiphat:
> N.


We have a lot of degenerates here loving those knockout survival polls. I am in a few of them too.


----------



## Wlelkins

My fave Wagner operas are as follows:
1. Meistersinger
2. Tristan
3. Parsifal
4. Gotterdammerung
5. Die Walkure
6. Dutchman
7. Tannhäuser 
8. Siegfried
9. Das Rheingold 
10.Lohengrin/Rienzi 

I find it exceedingly difficult to rank order these operas, but my top 3 consistently remain as such over time while the order of the bottom 7 fluctuate to some degree.


----------



## Itullian

Fritz Kobus said:


> Do we need a Knockdown thread on Wagner Operas?
> 
> (or was I supposed to post this in Stupid Thread Ideas?)


Great idea! ............


----------



## Pugg

Wlelkins said:


> My fave Wagner operas are as follows:
> 1. Meistersinger
> 2. Tristan
> 3. Parsifal
> 4. Gotterdammerung
> 5. Die Walkure
> 6. Dutchman
> 7. Tannhäuser
> 8. Siegfried
> 9. Das Rheingold
> 10.Lohengrin/Rienzi
> 
> I find it exceedingly difficult to rank order these operas, but my top 3 consistently remain as such over time while the order of the bottom 7 fluctuate to some degree.


Always good seeing a new member dig in right away, welcome to Talk Classical


----------



## daviddfreeman

daviddfreeman said:


> 1. Lohengrin
> 2. Tristan und Isolde
> 3. Tannhäuser
> 4. Parsifal
> 5. Die Walküre
> 6. Das Rheingold
> 7. Götterdämmerung
> 8. Die Meistersinger
> 9. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 10. Siegfried
> 
> For me, nothing is more genius than Lohengrin. Hands down the greatest opera ever written.


A little has changed since two years ago, so these are my current rankings:

1. Lohengrin
2. Parsifal
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Tristan und Isolde
5. Tannhäuser
6. Die Meistersinger
7. Die Walküre
8. Siegfried
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Das Rheingold

It's not that I don't like Das Rheingold... I just like the others better.


----------



## hpowders

1. Götterdämmerung
2. Die Meistersinger
3. Parsifal
4. Die Walküre
5. Das Rheingold
6. Tristan und Isolde
7. Lohengrin
8. Siegfried
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Tannhäuser

For what it's worth.


----------



## SixFootScowl

For me right now:

1. Der Fliegende Holländer

2-7. (no particular order--still have to sort these out)
Parsifal
Lohengrin
Die Walküre
Das Rheingold
Die Meistersinger
Götterdämmerung

8. Siegfried
9. Tristan und Isolde
10. Tannhäuser


----------



## wkasimer

1. Meistersinger
2. Siegfried
3. Rheingold
4. Parsifal
5. Gotterdammerung
6. Tristan und Isolde
7. Walkure
8. Tannhauser
9. Lohengrin
10. Der Fliegende Holländer


----------



## Barbebleu

1 - 8 = Götterdämmerung, Meistersinger, Parsifal, Tristan, Walküre, Lohengrin, Tannhäuser, Siegfried
9 - 10 = Rheingold, Holländer


----------



## Pugg

Wlelkins said:


> My fave Wagner operas are as follows:
> 1. Meistersinger
> 2. Tristan
> 3. Parsifal
> 4. Gotterdammerung
> 5. Die Walkure
> 6. Dutchman
> 7. Tannhäuser
> 8. Siegfried
> 9. Das Rheingold
> 10.Lohengrin/Rienzi
> 
> I find it exceedingly difficult to rank order these operas, but my top 3 consistently remain as such over time while the order of the bottom 7 fluctuate to some degree.





Pugg said:


> Always good seeing a new member dig in right away, welcome to Talk Classical


And never been seen again


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> And never been seen again


Maybe he read the Hitler and Wagner thread?


----------



## Seattleoperafan

brianwalker said:


> Comparing this thread to the Puccini one there seems to be more consensus that Tannhauser and Parsifal are Wagner's worst operas.


Parsifal is unique with me. Unlike most of The Ring, Tristan and Lohengrin I am not into listening to it from recordings endlessly, BUT they opened the new Seattle opera house with it and LIVE it was one of the greatest and most moving operatic experiences of my life. It works as live theater more than as recorded material in my opinion. It really is sort of a festival type of opera meant to be experienced as a unique event live. The music alone is not as moving as it is combined with the experience of seeing it live.


----------



## Woodduck

Seattleoperafan said:


> Parsifal is unique with me. Unlike most of The Ring, Tristan and Lohengrin I am not into listening to it from recordings endlessly, BUT they opened the new Seattle opera house with it and LIVE it was one of the greatest and most moving operatic experiences of my life. It works as live theater more than as recorded material in my opinion. It really is sort of a festival type of opera meant to be experienced as a unique event live. The music alone is not as moving as it is combined with the experience of seeing it live.


I find _Parsifal_ quite otherwise: the music is sheer magic, and evokes a world which no stage could ever duplicate. But everybody knows I'm a hopeless Parsifalian.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I find _Parsifal_ quite otherwise: the music is sheer magic, and evokes a world which no stage could ever duplicate. But everybody knows I'm a hopeless Parsifalian.


Are you listening to one over the weekend W. and if so, which one. I intend to listen to the Buenos Aires 1936 one I picked up recently but if you have something in mind I could be swayed!

Btw, Happy Easter.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Are you listening to one over the weekend W. and if so, which one. I intend to listen to the Buenos Aires 1936 one I picked up recently but if you have something in mind I could be swayed!
> 
> Btw, Happy Easter.


Thanks. I hadn't planned on it. That Buenos Aires performance looks interesting, even though the chorus, according to reviews, sings in Italian! Alexander Kipnis is reputed to have been the Gurnemanz to end all Gurnemanzes.


----------



## Barbebleu

I usually try to listen to Parsifal over Easter. I was watching it on t.v. on good Friday 1982 when a neighbour came to my door to tell me that my dad had collapsed and died so it has some resonance for me.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> I usually try to listen to Parsifal over Easter. I was watching it on t.v. on good Friday 1982 when a neighbour came to my door to tell me that my dad had collapsed and died so it has some resonance for me.


Yikes! What a coincidence.


----------



## Barbebleu

Yeah, not the best timing. It took me a few years to not associate Parsifal with that in a negative way. But hey, ho, life goes on and here I am 36 years on. As the song goes "I'm older than my old man now!" Are you giving Parsifal a run out over Easter Fritz? Apologies for going off-piste but I'm not about to start a new thread on the topic of incidents in one's life and unfortunate musical associations.


----------



## les24preludes

Three way tie for first - Meistersinger, Parsifal and Gotterdammerung. After that Siegfried, Rhinegold, Walkyre and Tristan, then the rest.

Parsifal is a great opera in the hands of Boulez, Solti, Thielemann and the other conductors who speed it up and play it as music, not some kind of quasi-religious melodrama. Kna and Karajan? Not for me.


----------



## Woodduck

les24preludes said:


> Parsifal is a great opera in the hands of Boulez, Solti, Thielemann and the other conductors who speed it up and play it as music, not some kind of quasi-religious melodrama. Kna and Karajan? Not for me.


The matter of tempo in _Parsifal_ is especially fascinating, in that the work has been subjected to a very wide range of tempo choices by the conductors you cite (and by many others). The following web site provides interesting information on the timings of performances at Bayreuth since 1882:

http://www.wagneropera.net/bayreuth/conductors-bayreuth-parsifal.htm

The performances of Knappertsbusch, it's interesting to note, show a tendency toward faster tempos through the years; the 1962 performance is 23 minutes faster than the 1951, and takes only a few minutes longer than the first performance by Hermann Levi under Wagner's direction in 1882. Karajan is hardly any slower, while Thielemann is only a few minutes faster than Levi. As I recall Solti's recording, his tempi are in the moderate range, not quick like Boulez's.

Boulez spoke about trying to avoid "false solemnity" or some such thing. I don't know what that means - how is it different from "true solemnity?" - but I do feel that his reading of the score skates over some expressive opportunities and loses too much of its poignancy and magic - the sense that "here time becomes space" - in its pursuit of that oddly negative goal. Wagner always advocated flexibility in tempo so as to give every moment its needed expression, and if that is done, and the sense of shape and momentum still preserved, there's no need to push the music along. I find Kna's 1962 performance entirely successful in this: always natural in feeling, deeply lyrical, and capturing fully the unique atmosphere of an opera which, really, is not very operatic for much of its length.

It's interesting to note that Wagner himself took 13:00 and 14:30 to conduct, on two occasions, the prelude to Act 1. Kna in 1962 took 11:57, while Boulez in 1970 zipped through it in 10:27. The only performance of the opera I've heard that's faster than Boulez's is Herbert Kegel's, wherein the sublime transformation music and procession of the knights skips smartly along like a holiday parade. I consider it a travesty, deserving a place beside Roger Norrington's imbecilically fast and shallow recording of the prelude to _Tristan._ I suppose he too is trying to "play it as music," not as if it actually means something.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

Not sure if this thread is still alive.. but here's my input

1) *Tristan* - for me, this is still Wagner's most perfect opera, and my favourite opera (thus far) by any composer in any age. This work had me completely and utterly obsessed in my youth for 6 mths, to the point where my friends, upon an invitation to come over to my place, would say "Sure we'll come but CAN WE PLEASE NOT LISTEN TO TRISTAN again???". From Brangane's "Einsam wachend in der Nacht" to King Mark's "Tatest du's wirklich".. 
2) *Die Walkure* - still getting to know this but each listening opens up more and more layers that changes my experience of the music. 
3) *Parsifal*- what a spiritual experience to listen to this. I certainly don't know Parsifal, the drama, as well as I know the music, and that's mainly because I found the subject matter a gating factor when I was first introduced to it. A friend of mine told me that in one's youth, it's Tristan, and as one gets older, Parsifal (with the Ring in between).. so I have waited until I "grew up" to understand Parsifal. The music however, is sublime - and I think Parsifal more than any other Wagner opera requires long uninterrupted listening to experience the long arcs and progressions across big time and space. 
4) *Gotterdammerung *- the culmination and the disintegration of the world as we know it. 
5) *Siegfried 
*6)* Das Rheingold

*... putting a break here for I don't know the rest as well 
7) Die Meistersinger
8) Lohengrin .. in fact this was my first Wagner opera I listened to. Came across it when I was 13, and liked it then. Needs revisiting at some point.

... and "don't knows" - Tannhauser and Der Fliegender Hollander.

p/s - how do I use umlauts in this forum?


----------



## Art Rock

GeorgeMcW said:


> p/s - how do I use umlauts in this forum?


For general use, apply alt codes (link).

For specific cases like this, go to wikipedia for Wagner and copy/paste the relevant titles.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

Art Rock said:


> For general use, apply alt codes (link).
> 
> For specific cases like this, go to wikipedia for Wagner and copy/paste the relevant titles.


Ah good trick! Thank you Art Rock


----------



## Sonata

1) Gotterdammerung
2) Flying Dutchman
3) Lohengrin
4) Das Rheingold
5) Walkure
6) Tannhauser
7) Parsifal
8) Meistersinger
9) Siegried
10) Tristan
11) Rienzi

The highlights of Parsifal exceed its sum total....surely would have a higher ranking if more compact. So here are


----------



## Guest

I've familiarised myself with a lot more Wagner since I ever thought about what my favourites are..........


Götterdämmerung
Tristan und Isolde
Die Walküre
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Parsifal
Lohengrin
Das Rheingold 
Siegfried
Tannhäuser
Der fliegende Holländer


----------



## Guest

Woodduck said:


> The matter of tempo in _Parsifal_ is especially fascinating, in that the work has been subjected to a very wide range of tempo choices by the conductors you cite (and by many others). The following web site provides interesting information on the timings of performances at Bayreuth since 1882:
> 
> http://www.wagneropera.net/bayreuth/conductors-bayreuth-parsifal.htm
> 
> The performances of Knappertsbusch, it's interesting to note, show a tendency toward faster tempos through the years; the 1962 performance is 23 minutes faster than the 1951, and takes only a few minutes longer than the first performance by Hermann Levi under Wagner's direction in 1882. Karajan is hardly any slower, while Thielemann is only a few minutes faster than Levi. As I recall Solti's recording, his tempi are in the moderate range, not quick like Boulez's.
> 
> Boulez spoke about trying to avoid "false solemnity" or some such thing. I don't know what that means - how is it different from "true solemnity?" - but I do feel that his reading of the score skates over some expressive opportunities and loses too much of its poignancy and magic - the sense that "here time becomes space" - in its pursuit of that oddly negative goal. Wagner always advocated flexibility in tempo so as to give every moment its needed expression, and if that is done, and the sense of shape and momentum still preserved, there's no need to push the music along. I find Kna's 1962 performance entirely successful in this: always natural in feeling, deeply lyrical, and capturing fully the unique atmosphere of an opera which, really, is not very operatic for much of its length.
> 
> It's interesting to note that Wagner himself took 13:00 and 14:30 to conduct, on two occasions, the prelude to Act 1. Kna in 1962 took 11:57, while Boulez in 1970 zipped through it in 10:27. The only performance of the opera I've heard that's faster than Boulez's is Herbert Kegel's, wherein the sublime transformation music and procession of the knights skips smartly along like a holiday parade. I consider it a travesty, deserving a place beside Roger Norrington's imbecilically fast and shallow recording of the prelude to _Tristan._ I suppose he too is trying to "play it as music," not as if it actually means something.


Boulez, from what I have listened to at least, is fast done _right_ and not Norrington's shallow travesty of orchestral music from _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_.

Actually, Boulez's 1966 _Parsifal_ was documented by his biographer as a 'brilliant success,' and 'more theatrical than religious, more dramatic than mystical.' Boulez mentioned in an interview in 1969 that other conductors of _Parisfal_ in his time tended to slow the music down and follow the singer (they were much older than him at the time and their ears were not what they used to be), whereas Boulez's tempi were more informed by his ideal to find a pacing suitable to tell the chain of events, the drama that _Parsifal_ really tells.

Boulez was mostly concerned in finding the drama, emotion, passion of Wagner's works. From what I gather, 'false solemnity' refers to his disdain for conductors who try to impose a kind of solemnity to the score that doesn't preserve the shape and momentum of what could potentially be there. He didn't speak of 'false solemnity' as something in opposition to 'true solemnity,' but rather a search for a different kind of truth that stripped _Parsifal_ back to its core and vital elements-something Wieland Wagner notably did visually in his productions.

I still think it's important to present _Parsifal_ not as some preachy, draggy religious melodrama, but as a critique of a distorted religion and its traditions. Boulez certainly has an element of that.

It's interesting to note that the 1966 Boulez _Parsifal_ was similar in duration to a performance directed by Richard Strauss; their performances of act 1 were only a minute different at 1 hour and 37 minutes and 1 hour and 38 minutes respectively. Boulez's speed wasn't unheard of in Bayreuth, but he brought a perspective to and understanding of Wagner's final masterpiece that it rightly deserved.


----------



## Guest

Oh and as for Norrington, he completely fails at making Wagner's music properly _sing_ as Boulez does.


----------



## Woodduck

shirime said:


> Boulez, from what I have listened to at least, is fast done _right_ and not Norrington's shallow travesty of orchestral music from _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_.
> 
> Actually, Boulez's 1966 _Parsifal_ was documented by his biographer as a 'brilliant success,' and '*more theatrical than religious, more dramatic than mystical*.' Boulez mentioned in an interview in 1969 that other conductors of _Parisfal_ in his time tended to slow the music down and *follow the singer (they were much older than him at the time and their ears were not what they used to be),* whereas Boulez's tempi were more informed by his ideal to find a pacing *suitable to tell the chain of events, **the drama that Parsifal really tells.
> *
> Boulez was mostly concerned in finding the *drama, emotion, passion *of Wagner's works. From what I gather, 'false solemnity' refers to his disdain for conductors who try to *impose a kind of solemnity to the score that doesn't preserve the shape and momentum* of what could potentially be there. He didn't speak of 'false solemnity' as something in opposition to 'true solemnity,' but rather a search for *a different kind of truth that stripped Parsifal back to its core and vital elements*-something Wieland Wagner notably did visually in his productions.
> 
> I still think it's important to present _Parsifal_ not as *some preachy, draggy religious melodrama,* but as *a critique of a distorted religion and its traditions. Boulez certainly has an element of that.*
> 
> It's interesting to note that the 1966 Boulez _Parsifal_ was similar in duration to a performance directed by Richard Strauss; their performances of act 1 were only a minute different at 1 hour and 37 minutes and 1 hour and 38 minutes respectively. Boulez's speed wasn't unheard of in Bayreuth, but *he brought a perspective to and understanding of Wagner's final masterpiece* that it rightly deserved.


This is a good try at justifying a certain view of what _Parsifal_ is about, using a monster truckload of heavily loaded language (which I've put in bold). Rather than try to load the language in the other direction, I'll begin with the purely empirical point that Boulez's ideas about the tempi are at considerable variance with Wagner's, as is shown by the timings of Wagner's two performances of the Act 1 prelude and of Levi's performances under Wagner's direction. There is no question that tempos for the opera got slower, on average, over time (see the performances by Karl Muck, Toscanini, and the younger Knappertsbusch), but that's a trend we observe in musical performance in general, as we can hear if we listen to recorded performances of Mahler by early 20th-century conductors such as Mengelberg and Walter, and to instrumental performers such as Heifetz and Rachmaninoff. all of whom tended toward tempi quicker than those we're accustomed to today. But guess what? At the final performance of _Parsifal_'s first run, Wagner stepped in for the final scene and conducted it himself, reportedly taking tempos slower than the ones in which he had presumably coached Levi. From that, and from Wagner's conducting of the prelude on two separate occasions (one of which was apparently quite slow), we might surmise that when he entered into an intimate performing relationship with his own work, he felt the need for a bit more time to bring out qualities of expression - whether we wish to call them "spiritual" or something else - that he knew the music contained and that he believed himself bound to try to communicate.

Given that Muck and Knappertsbusch were, each in his day, felt to "own" this work by countless hearers, and that Toscanini's Bayreuth performance, the slowest on record, was described in glowing terms by the prominent critic James Huneker, I think we ought not to be too quick to say what qualities should and should not be conveyed by what is in fact an incredibly rich, multilayered, suggestive, and even problematic work of art (much less to claim that these great musicians were subservient to singers, or that they were old and could no longer hear properly!). Boulez and you may have your views, and you're entitled to them. But no one interpretation of Parsifal is "right," and, as with any work of music, no one's choice of tempi is sacrosanct - not even Wagner's, as Hermann Levi's and his own performances make abundantly clear.

_Parsifal _has been, of all works of art, the most special to me over a fairly long lifetime of listening. For me the Boulez approach misses some essential qualities of it, and that isn't entirely a matter of tempo. In my judgment, Kna's last performances (recorded in 1962 and 1964) strike an ideal balance between the dramatic and meditative aspects of the opera; nothing is dragged, and nothing is rushed. But most importantly, nothing is pushed, forced, or imposed: the music breathes and unfolds with utter naturalness and inevitability, like a great song that must sing itself to the end. Other conductors may bring out certain details more strongly here and there, but probably only someone who knows, loves, and serves this music over a lifetime can so fully penetrate its secrets and approach the totality of Wagner's vision.


----------



## mountmccabe

Revised!


Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Das Rheingold
Siegfried
Der fliegende Holländer
Tannhäuser
Lohengrin
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg

The top three are all but tied. I rate _Tannhäuser_ very highly based on the music, but I am much less into the rest of it.

I should probably give _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ more of a chance, given how late it was composed. But then again, I don't really like operatic comedies.


----------



## Barbebleu

mountmccabe said:


> I should probably give _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ more of a chance, given how late it was composed. But then again, I don't really like operatic comedies.


You should be ok with Meistersinger then. As they say, German comedy is no laughing matter!


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> You should be ok with Meistersinger then. As they say, German comedy is no laughing matter!


Indeed. Notice that the occupation of barber is not represented in the mastersinger guild.


----------



## WildThing

mountmccabe said:


> I should probably give _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ more of a chance, given how late it was composed. But then again, I don't really like operatic comedies.


If you do decide to give it more of a chance, this would be an excellent companion for your journey:


----------



## Itullian

I love them all.
Right now I'm listening to Meistersinger. Kempe and Solti 1.
What a wonderful, rich, melodic journey it is.
Here's a little intro.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

Just got this...








Right now I'm at Act 2 of Gotterdammerung - still Krauss 53


----------



## mathisdermaler

Knowing only Parsifal very well:

1. Parsifal



2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Das Rheingold

4. Die Meistersinger
5. Gotterdammerung


6. Die Walkure


7. Tannhauser
8. Siegfried

9. Lohengrin
10. Der fliegende


----------



## SixFootScowl

mathisdermaler said:


> Knowing only Parsifal very well:
> 
> 1. Parsifal
> 
> 2. Tristan und Isolde
> 3. Das Rheingold
> 
> 4. Die Meistersinger
> 5. Gotterdammerung
> 
> 6. Die Walkure
> 
> 7. Tannhauser
> 8. Siegfried
> 
> 9. Lohengrin
> 10. Der fliegende


Of them all, Der fliegende is the easiest to get to know. (In case you have limited time to explore operas.)


----------



## Barbebleu

I love that we now refer to Holländer as Der Fliegende!!:lol: that would be The Flying? What? Fig, Cortes, Down to Rio? 

Incidentally my ranking list is now
Der Fliegende Holländer
Tannhäuser
Lohengrin
Das Rheingold
Die Walküre
Siegfried ( up until where Siegfried is sitting under a tree listening to the wood-bird)
Tristan und Isolde
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Siegfried (continued)
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I love that we now refer to Holländer as Der Fliegende!!:lol: that would be The Flying? What? Fig, Cortes, Down to Rio?
> 
> Incidentally my ranking list is now
> Der Fliegende Holländer
> Tannhäuser
> Lohengrin
> Das Rheingold
> Die Walküre
> Siegfried ( up until where Siegfried is sitting under a tree listening to the wood-bird)
> Tristan und Isolde
> Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> Siegfried (continued)
> Götterdämmerung
> Parsifal.


… I assume that's in reverse order?


----------



## GeorgeMcW

howlingfantods said:


> … I assume that's in reverse order?


I was going to say... A bit perplexed by the order.


----------



## Barbebleu

Why is anyone perplexed by the order? Am I not permitted to rank them as I see fit? 

I assume someone has spotted that this is the order of composition but perhaps not. Just my little joke to see who might pick up on it. Ah me, us Wagnerians do tend to be a bit po-faced, don't we.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> I love that we now refer to Holländer as Der Fliegende!!:lol: that would be The Flying? What? Fig, Cortes, Down to Rio?
> 
> Incidentally my ranking list is now
> Der Fliegende Holländer
> Tannhäuser
> Lohengrin
> Das Rheingold
> Die Walküre
> Siegfried ( up until where Siegfried is sitting under a tree listening to the wood-bird)
> Tristan und Isolde
> Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> Siegfried (continued)
> Götterdämmerung
> Parsifal.


Maybe Die fliegende Tochter. After all it's Senta (the daughter, "tochter") who "flies" off the cliff after the dutchman. 

Nice to see a seasoned Wagner listener putting Der Fliegende Holländer at the top of their list!


----------



## Woodduck

Fritz Kobus said:


> Nice to see a seasoned Wagner listener putting Der Fliegende Holländer at the top of their list!


Careful! The seasoning may look like nutmeg, but it's really cayenne pepper.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Why is anyone perplexed by the order? Am I not permitted to rank them as I see fit?
> 
> I assume someone has spotted that this is the order of composition but perhaps not. Just my little joke to see who might pick up on it. Ah me, us Wagnerians do tend to be a bit po-faced, don't we.


I was going to have to break you the bad news that you've probably needlessly overspent on gathering dozens of recordings of your last ranked opera.


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## mountmccabe

Thanks for the recs on _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_. I do plan to check them out.

But to clarify I have certainly given this opera quite a few chances. I have heard a number of recordings, seen a few on video, and even seen it live. I enjoyed it but the response was more "yep, that sure was opera" rather than finding it moving or exciting or funny. There's the prize song and it's repeated a few times, growing, but otherwise the music does not grab me that much.

Among the ten major Wagner operas this is the only one like that. Perhaps I will be drawn in the music by listening to it more and more. But I also don't choose to listen to it that much because I like all the other Wagner better (and there's a lot of Wagner, and there's a lot of other things, too).


----------



## Granate

It's hot and Bruckner No.9 repeated listening is driving me nuts, not to say I'm not very keen on doing a _Les Contes d'Hoffmann_ challenge now that I've watched the first two hours.

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walküre
3. Parsifal
4. Das Rheingold
5. Lohengrin
6. Tannhäuser
7. Götterdämmerung
8. Die Flegende Höllander
9. Siegfried
...
...
...










...
...

...

...

10. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


----------



## WildThing

Man, the lack of Meistersinger love is a little disconcerting. What a rich, engaging, joyful and multifaceted work it is, head and shoulders above his earliest operas both musically and in its characterizations.


----------



## Barbebleu

WildThing said:


> Man, the lack of Meistersinger love is a little disconcerting. What a rich, engaging, joyful and multifaceted work it is, head and shoulders above his earliest operas both musically and in its characterizations.


It certainly is all of these things. What it isn't, to me anyway, is a comedy. Too many dark elements for me but that's not to say that I don't love the opera. I find that the least likeable music in it is the Prize song! All the rest, including Kothner's monologue and David's monologue, is wonderful stuff.


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## WildThing

Barbebleu said:


> It certainly is all of these things. What it isn't, to me anyway, is a comedy. Too many dark elements for me but that's not to say that I don't love the opera. I find that the least likeable music in it is the Prize song! All the rest, including Kothner's monologue and David's monologue, is wonderful stuff.


I see those dark elements as augmenting the eventual triumph of the goodness of the human spirit. There's nothing in the story as ominous for me as the malice of a Hagen or the torment of a Klingsor; Beckmesser comes across to me as a misguided but highly amusing character. Comedy or not, I find there's a smile plastered on my face throughout the entire duration of the opera in a good performance, through all the witty banter and humorous predicaments.


----------



## Sonata

GeorgeMcW said:


> I was going to say... A bit perplexed by the order.


It IS allowed to prefer earlier Wagner is it not?


----------



## Barbebleu

I thought I had clarified that I was having a little fun by just listing them in the order that Wagner composed them! Sheesh! 

I'm now at a stage where I can't really play favourites with Wagner's operas. They all, in their own way, fulfil certain musical requirements for me.

Tannhäuser was the first one that I heard so it will always have a special resonance for me. I then kind of listened to them in chronological order with the exception of the Ring cycle which I listened to before Lohengrin. So basically the order of composition is as good a way to list them as any. You can really start at any point and that would be my favourite on that given day.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> I thought I had clarified that I was having a little fun by just listing them in the order that Wagner composed them! Sheesh!
> 
> I'm now at a stage where I can't really play favourites with Wagner's operas. They all, in their own way, fulfil certain musical requirements for me.
> 
> Tannhäuser was the first one that I heard so it will always have a special resonance for me. I then kind of listened to them in chronological order with the exception of the Ring cycle which I listened to before Lohengrin. So basically the order of composition is as good a way to list them as any. You can really start at any point and that would be my favourite on that given day.


I got it. ......................


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> It certainly is all of these things. What it isn't, to me anyway, is a comedy. Too many dark elements for me but that's not to say that I don't love the opera. I find that the least likeable music in it is the Prize song! All the rest, including Kothner's monologue and David's monologue, is wonderful stuff.


"Comedy" is a term of very broad meaning. At its broadest it's been stretched to mean any story that has a happy ending, but _Meistersinger_ doesn't stretch the meaning quite that far. It's a philosophical comedy full of imperfect characters entertaining or grappling with various illusions about life - "Wahn, Wahn, uberall Wahn!" and it looks at them with amusement, dismay, resignation, and an ambiguous blend of sympathy and sternness. Honestly, I never found it actually _funny_ to listen to, but then Verdi's _Falstaff_ and Strauss's _Der Rosenkavalier_ don't strike me as very funny either; for the most part I don't find music particularly good at communicating the sort of humor that induces laughter, and I think operatic comedy, unlike verbal comedy, really needs to be seen if laughter is what we want (Shakespeare's _Merry Wives_ is hilarious just to read). This is probably why _Meistersinger_, despite a wonderful score, is not one of my very favorite Wagner operas. The scores of his great myths and romances express things which hardly need the stage to flesh them out, and in certain moments no staging could ever do justice to their profound and visionary power.

With that (among other things) in mind, I'd rank my current preferences more or less this way:

1. Parsifal
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Die Walkure
4. Gotterdammerung (might be third on another day)
5. Die Meistersinger
6. Siegfried
7. Das Rheingold
8. Lohengrin
9. Der Fliegende Hollander
10. Tannhauser


----------



## Sonata

Barbebleu said:


> I thought I had clarified that I was having a little fun by just listing them in the order that Wagner composed them! Sheesh!
> 
> I'm now at a stage where I can't really play favourites with Wagner's operas. They all, in their own way, fulfil certain musical requirements for me.
> 
> Tannhäuser was the first one that I heard so it will always have a special resonance for me. I then kind of listened to them in chronological order with the exception of the Ring cycle which I listened to before Lohengrin. So basically the order of composition is as good a way to list them as any. You can really start at any point and that would be my favourite on that given day.


I got it too....I just found the comments annoying anyway. (not yours but the responses)Because some of us DO rate Dutchman higher than Tristan and there is nothing wrong with that, no need for the disdain in some of the responses.


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I got it. ......................


I wouldn't have expected anything less!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Sonata said:


> I got it too....I just found the comments annoying anyway. (not yours but the responses)Because some of us DO rate Dutchman higher than Tristan and there is nothing wrong with that, no need for the disdain in some of the responses.


Yes, There are days that I want to listen to a Holländer and days I want to listen to Parsifal. They both reach the parts other music doesn't, other than the rest of the Wagner canon, that is! Was that at all intelligible? I wrote it and I'm having a struggle.:lol:


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## Itullian

Sonata said:


> I got it too....I just found the comments annoying anyway. (not yours but the responses)Because some of us DO rate Dutchman higher than Tristan and there is nothing wrong with that, no need for the disdain in some of the responses.


And I understand that too.....


----------



## OperaChic

Woodduck said:


> "Comedy" is a term of very broad meaning. At its broadest it's been stretched to mean any story that has a happy ending, but _Meistersinger_ doesn't stretch the meaning quite that far. It's a philosophical comedy full of imperfect characters entertaining or grappling with various illusions about life - "Wahn, Wahn, uberall Wahn!" and it looks at them with amusement, dismay, resignation, and an ambiguous blend of sympathy and sternness. Honestly, I never found it actually _funny_ to listen to, but then Verdi's _Falstaff_ and Strauss's _Der Rosenkavalier_ don't strike me as very funny either; for the most part I don't find music particularly good at communicating the sort of humor that induces laughter, and I think operatic comedy, unlike verbal comedy, really needs to be seen if laughter is what we want (Shakespeare's _Merry Wives_ is hilarious just to read). This is probably why _Meistersinger_, despite a wonderful score, is not one of my very favorite Wagner operas. The scores of his great myths and romances express things which hardly need the stage to flesh them out, and in certain moments no staging could ever do justice to their profound and visionary power.
> 
> With that (among other things) in mind, I'd rank my current preferences more or less this way:
> 
> 1. Parsifal
> 2. Tristan und Isolde
> 3. Die Walkure
> 4. Gotterdammerung (might be third on another day)
> 5. Die Meistersinger
> 6. Siegfried
> 7. Das Rheingold
> 8. Lohengrin
> 9. Der Fliegende Hollander
> 10. Tannhauser


Some great observations here. Let me say however that while I agree with you that there are scenes in the opera that do need that visual element and good acting to really convey the humor, like Beckmesser's pantomime in Act 3 or the riot at the end of Act 2 (though there is something menacing in the music here as well isn't there?), at many other moments I think the score itself does a excellent job at adding extra touches of lightness and amusement to the proceedings. I'm thinking of things like the decorative ornaments at the end of Kothner's lines when he's laying out the rules for the singing trial which gives them a hilarious air of pomposity. Well, at least _I_ fine the opera funny to listen to, even on a recording. Nothing laugh out loud funny, per se, but the situational comedy definitely has me chuckling and grinning and the various hi-jinks. A lot of it is subtle of course, as in when Eva is coyly probing Hans Sachs on his potential interest in joining the contest and trying to get some information about Walther's performance at the trial, whiles Sachs, guessing her true intentions insults the knight to get a rise out of her and unwittingly exposes her true feelings for him. A thoroughly entertaining exchange.

I have a feeling that because it doesn't inhabit the same fantastical, mythic, timeless space of some of the others, Meistersinger is sometimes unjustly dismissed as a silly and superficial work in comparison. In fact I don't think anything could be farther from the truth, and as both you and Barbebleu point out there is plenty about human affairs that the opera deals with that is rather serious in tone. In fact I would say it tackles many of the same issues as his other dramas, but from a different angle. The window dressing may have changed, but it is just as perceptive and enlightening. And the music! God the music. The Quintet alone can send shivers up and down my spine like few other moments in his entire oeuvre. I love this video with Antonio Pappano, because he expresses the awe at the seemingly unending inspiration of the score that I feel every time I listen:






As far as personal favorites go, for me Wagner's last four complete operas of Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger, Gotterdammerung and Parsifal are where he reaches the pinnacle of his art and each are so exceptional and singular that I think it's pointless even trying to rank them.


----------



## howlingfantods

Sonata said:


> I got it too....I just found the comments annoying anyway. (not yours but the responses)Because some of us DO rate Dutchman higher than Tristan and there is nothing wrong with that, no need for the disdain in some of the responses.


I don't care how anyone ranks anything--I just thought it was funny that Barbe would rank Parsifal last since he's got the most insane collection I know of. I have around 35 or 40 recordings of the opera, and even I think his collection is hilarious overkill.


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## Woodduck

The critic Conrad L. Osborne once joked that if _Meistersinger_ is the Wagner opera for people who don't like Wagner, _Parsifal_ is the Wagner opera for Wagnerites only. _Meistersinger_ is entertaining, but I think you'd have to be deaf and blind to call it silly or superficial. As a "serious comedy" it can be enjoyed on more than one level: it has romance, satire, and history, and its philosophical contemplations embrace art, love, morality and social life. And of course, as always with Wagner, the magnificent tapestry of the music gives voice to all these things with endless resourcefulness and eloquence. It also has a damned clever libretto, which shows (among other things) that Wagner could adopt very different verbal styles for different works.


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> I don't care how anyone ranks anything--I just thought it was funny that Barbe would rank Parsifal last since he's got the most insane collection I know of. I have around 35 or 40 recordings of the opera, and even I think his collection is hilarious overkill.


Respectfully, I think you're both loonbats - and _Parsifal_ is my favorite opera.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

Sonata said:


> I got it too....I just found the comments annoying anyway. (not yours but the responses)Because some of us DO rate Dutchman higher than Tristan and there is nothing wrong with that, no need for the disdain in some of the responses.


It was Ritter in jest. I don't know why you read the comments as disdain. I just seem to remember that wasn't his previous ranking. And no I didn't spot that it was chronological. The Siegfried break should've given me a clue if I looked for more than a few seconds. And a low ranking doesn't mean we won't listen to the ones at the bottom of the list - I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most people here are Wagner fans.

Geeesh - note to self - attempt humour cautiously here


----------



## Sonata

howlingfantods said:


> I don't care how anyone ranks anything--I just thought it was funny that Barbe would rank Parsifal last since he's got the most insane collection I know of. I have around 35 or 40 recordings of the opera, and even I think his collection is hilarious overkill.


lol, I gotcha.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Respectfully, I think you're both loonbats - and _Parsifal_ is my favorite opera.


I reiterate, I did not rank Parsifal last. it was a blasted chronological list posted to see if anyone would get the joke, trivial as it was. It would appear that some of us Wagnerians seem to have had a humour by-pass.


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## Itullian

I think Woodduck was just joking about the size of the collections


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I think Woodduck was just joking about the size of the collections


Possibly, but as I said, we've got no sense of humour!!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

OperaChic said:


> I love this video with Antonio Pappano, because he expresses the awe at the seemingly unending inspiration of the score that I feel every time I listen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as personal favorites go, for me Wagner's last four complete operas of Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger, Gotterdammerung and Parsifal are where he reaches the pinnacle of his art and each are so exceptional and singular that I think it's pointless even trying to rank them.


The videos is fine up until Simon O'Neil squawks his way through Walther's music. Simply dreadful. Pappano's enthusiasm is wonderful to watch though.


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> I think Woodduck was just joking about the size of the collections


Precisely. :tiphat: I'm on to Bluebeard's other tricks.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Precisely. :tiphat: I'm on to Bluebeard's other tricks.


You give me too much credit methinks. I'm a simple man with no ulterior motives at all - unless of course there's something to be gained! Anyway, we are always being told that size doesn't matter!


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> I don't care how anyone ranks anything--I just thought it was funny that Barbe would rank Parsifal last since he's got the most insane collection I know of. I have around 35 or 40 recordings of the opera, and even I think his collection is hilarious overkill.


For goodness sake, how can 54 Parsifals be remotely over the top? Now 250+ Dylan albums, official and bootleg of course, now we're talking mental!!


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## les24preludes

Barbebleu said:


> how can 54 Parsifals be remotely over the top?


You could collect Bayreuth Parsifals forever and I might have started down that route if I hadn't heard Boulez. He changed everything for me, and I only listen to his version these days.


----------



## Barbebleu

les24preludes said:


> You could collect Bayreuth Parsifals forever and I might have started down that route if I hadn't heard Boulez. He changed everything for me, and I only listen to his version these days.


Ah, someone who likes his Parsifal with a bit of pace! Boulez DG Parsifal was my first Parsifal purchase and Dame Gwyneth aside I rather like it. But I do like my Knappertsbusches. Particularly 1964 with Vickers.


----------



## les24preludes

Barbebleu said:


> Ah, someone who likes his Parsifal with a bit of pace!


Definitely. After Boulez Kna and many others seemed not "deep and spiritual" but simply SLOW.....

Strangely one of the slowest is Toscanini. You could go on holiday, come back with a tan and go off to the Lake District for a week while he's still pondering over it.


----------



## OperaChic

les24preludes said:


> Definitely. After Boulez Kna and many others seemed not "deep and spiritual" but simply SLOW.....


Definitely not true for me. I've never had much taste for Boulez in Wagner, whose conducting lacks sentiment and seems more concerned with maintaining clean, precise lines in the musical texture than with being dramatically convincing. But to each their own.


----------



## les24preludes

OperaChic said:


> Definitely not true for me. I've never had much taste for Boulez in Wagner, whose conducting lacks sentiment and seems more concerned with maintaining clean, precise lines in the musical texture than with being dramatically convincing. But to each their own.


I think that's a pretty fair description. What I love about Boulez is the clear musical texture and clean, convincing melody lines, taken at a speed in which they make more sense to me. What you see as drama I do sometimes agree with - Boulez could have made a little more of Act 3, though the first 2 acts are superb. But what others like in Karajan I just see as hopelessly melodramatic to the point where it's hard to listen to. I listen to this opera for the music rather than anything else, as you correctly guessed. Not the only approach, and maybe not even the most common approach. But that's how Boulez saw it.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> For goodness sake, how can 54 Parsifals be remotely over the top? Now 250+ Dylan albums, official and bootleg of course, now we're talking mental!!


hilarious, hilarious overkill. I mean, 35 or 40 is pretty absurd overkill too, I doubt I regularly listen to more than like 15 of mine, there's some real duds in my collection.

and, I mean, cmon, no one needs more than like 60 Dylan recordings--the 36 studio recordings, the 13 volume bootleg series, plus a few compilations for alternate takes and non-album singles.


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## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> hilarious, hilarious overkill. I mean, 35 or 40 is pretty absurd overkill too, I doubt I regularly listen to more than like 15 of mine, there's some real duds in my collection.
> 
> and, I mean, cmon, no one needs more than like 60 Dylan recordings--the 36 studio recordings, the 13 volume bootleg series, plus a few compilations for alternate takes and non-album singles.


But then you might miss something like his Glasgow Barrowland set that he did as an unscheduled one-off in front of a small audience and he was superb. He even talked to the audience! Shock, horror.


----------



## mountmccabe

Itullian said:


> I love them all.
> Right now I'm listening to Meistersinger. Kempe and Solti 1.
> What a wonderful, rich, melodic journey it is.
> Here's a little intro.


He's not very good at the piano, is he. None of those musical excerpts were enlightening.

Have listened again and given it some thing, I think it is mostly that I am not very interested in a warm, light comedy-esque work? I mean, sure, there is a lot I like about the opera. Ranked last on the list of these ten is not bad.


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## hpowders

At this particular point in time, ranking solely as great music and ignoring ridiculousness of libretto:

1. Götterdämmerung

2. Parsifal

3. Die Meistersinger

4. Die Walküre

5. Siegfried

6. Tristan und Isolde

The rest I don't care about.


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## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> Ah, someone who likes his Parsifal with a bit of pace! Boulez DG Parsifal was my first Parsifal purchase and Dame Gwyneth aside I rather like it. But I do like my Knappertsbusches. Particularly 1964 with Vickers.


I'm with this as well. I would go with one of the Kna Parsifal's fi picking something off the shelf.

N.


----------



## sethmadsen

emiellucifuge said:


> Perhaps this could all be compiled into a defintive ranking?
> Or am i list-crazy?!


Did anyone end up doing this? I got a few pages in, but maybe the OP could have a link if so? If not this might be something I put some effort into. Probably assign weighted points (10 for #1 and 1 for #10, etc.) and then post the findings?


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## txtrnl341

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Parsifal
3. Gotterdammerung
4. Die Walkure
5. Siegfried
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
8. Tannhauser
9. Der Fliegende Hollander
I don't think I can include Die Meistersinger as I've yet to sit through the whole thing. I am familiar with parts but don't have the patience to sit through the whole for some reason (not enough angst?).


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

Last month, I used a combination of this forum's posts and Spotify to familiarize myself with notable recordings of the ten major Wagner operas and the ideas/discussion surrounding each one of them. I listened to Meistersinger, Tannhauser, Tristan, and Lohengrin all for the very first time. I am very familiar with the Ring operas and the Dutchman, so I did not do much re-listening of those operas. I listened to Parsifal a little more closely this time around and it was a lot better than how I remembered it when I saw it at the Met for the first time a few years back. With all of the operas fresh on my mind. I think that I can now make a ranking of the ten operas.

1. Die Walkure: This one was and remains my favorite of all of the Wagner operas. This opera always keeps my attention and it has my favorite selections from all of Wagner's music. Right from the prelude, I know that this opera is ready to fire on all cylinders. I like the story and I also really enjoy the characters (my favorites are Wotan and Hunding). It is both my favorite Wagner opera and my favorite opera in general. 

Favorite Part: Wotan's Farewell and Magic Fire Music

2. Tristan und Isolde: When I first watched an old Bayreuth performance of this opera on television, I was not sure what I thought about it. It did not have the action of the Ring and it was not as reflective/spiritual as Parsifal, but the key for me is in the music. The music in this opera, as I am sure many of you would agree, is incredible. The lietmotifs and themes of this opera are very memorable and are full of complexities. The story, while it is kind of basic in my opinion, is really intriguing when you think about how Wagner conveys the emotions Tristan and Isolde are feeling in music. They were enemies, but now because of the potion, they cannot stop themselves from lusting for the other. It is quite the dilemma and the music expresses this very effectively While it does not have the action of other Wagner operas, the music is more than enough to make you come back again and again.

Favorite parts: So Sterben Wir (Act II) and the Act II Prelude


3. Parsifal: Parsifal is the one that I was debating about concerning where I would rank it on my list. Like Tristan, this opera benefits from having incredible music brought to a story that I do not think is as impressive (at face value at least). I was not that impressed or moved by the story the first time I watched it; however, once I got familiar with the ideas/themes behind the story, I felt that the opera had a much greater impact on me personally than before. There are some heavy themes floating around this opera and the music succeeds in playing up the drama. Now that I have a better understanding of the opera, it shot up my top ten drastically (used to be one of my least favorites). It is definitely not the first Wagner opera I would recommend, especially for a newcomer, but I thoroughly enjoy it.

Favorite parts: Act I. Verwandlungmusik and Act II Prelude

4. Siegfried: This might be a surprising pick, but I really like Siegfried. I enjoy the characters (even Mime) and there is plenty of good music to go around. I particularly like the second act of this opera when Siegfried fights Fafner. It may be blasphemy to rank this over Gotterdamerung, but I find Siegfried to be a much easier re-listen than Gotterdamerung. I’ll occasionally listen to an act or two from Siegfried, but I really have to concentrate to listen to Gotterdamerung. I am also not a huge fan of Hagen because I do not like his music or singing as much as other villains in the Ring (Alberich, Hunding, Fafner). Overall, I find this opera to be a lot of fun with some strong moments. 

Favorite parts: Act I: Hoho, Hohei! Schmeide, Mein Hammer and Act III: Heil dir, Sonne. Heil dir, Licht 

5. Die Meistersingers von Nurnberg: This one was a very pleasant surprise for me. Up until last month, the only thing I knew about this opera was the famous overture. As I was listening to it, I could not believe that it was Wagner. There were no gods and giants and no one was dying; moreover, the music was light and sounded almost comical. The characters were entertaining and there are some very charming parts like Walther’s prize song. It is a long opera, but I enjoyed every second of it. Would love to see this one live.

Favorite part: Act II: Jerum! Jerum! 

6. Das Rhinegold: It was difficult deciding between whether or not I should rank Gotterdamerung above Rhinegold. When I considered to which opera I re-listen to the most and which one has more highlights for me, I had to admit that I listen to Rhinegold so much more. It is much shorter than the other Ring operas and as a result, the plot moves at a very quick pace. Characters pop in and out throughout the opera, but it is a testament to an opera when I can remember all of their themes (the Rhinemaidens, Alberich, the giants, Wotan, Loge, etc). You also can’t forget the prelude and Rhine theme, which sets up the entire saga and is brilliantly brought back at the end of this opera. There is a lot to love from this opera and I re-listen to it often.

Favorite parts: Act I: Shanft Schloss Schlaf Dein Aug, Verwandlungmusik Nibelheim, Act III: Heda, Heda, Hedo

7. Gotterdamerung: As I mentioned above, there are some things about Gotterdamerung that I am not the biggest fan of; in particular, Hagen and its re-playability for me. I understand that something like re-playability is very subjective. I agree that there are some incredible parts of this opera (Siegfried’s Rhine Journey, the Funeral Music, the ending), but I think that they are too far in between for me. I would be incorrect to say that it is not a satisfying conclusion to the Ring Cycle; I think that it does it in spectacular fashion. It just doesn’t get the same amount of listening for me as do the other six operas on this list.

Favorite part: Act III: Brunnhilde's Immolation Scene

8. Lohengrin: Ranking Lohengrin this low is by no means indicative of an issue I have with this opera. On the contrary, it is the opera that I have been going back to for re-listening to see if it will climb up the top ten. As indicated by its ranking, it is my current favorite opera of Wagner’s “earlier” works. This is due to some incredible arias by Elsa and Lohengrin and King Heinrich’s march, which is fast becoming one of my top 5 favorite moments in all of Wagner’s operas. I’ve heard some recordings of the march that get me hyped beyond belief. It sits at eighth for now, but I would not be surprised if Lohengrin climbs up the ranks in the future.

Favorite part: Act III: Heil, Konig Heinrich

9. Tannhuaser: First things first: the overture to Tannhauser is my favorite overture from all of Wagner’s operas. The theme of the pilgrims is one of my favorite bits from Wagner and in all of classical music. The opera itself has some great singing too such as Venus’ opening lines, the song contest in Act II, and the procession of the pilgrims in Act III. This one falls towards the bottom of the list because with the exception of Tannhauser and Venus, the other characters don’t quite catch my interest. There are some good hunting calls from the brass and other good moments throughout, but I think Wagner has more to offer in the previous eight works. In the end, I do find a lot of joy out of this opera.

Favorite part: Act III: Pilgrim’s Chorus

10. Die Fliegende Hollander: The earliest Wagner opera on this list suffers from being compared to the operas made later in Wagner’s career. I’ve listened to this one a couple of times and I have seen it live before as well, but it never quite hits my emotions the same as the other operas on this list. The Flying Dutchman has his famous song in Act I and Senta has her ballad in Act II, which are the two biggest highlights in the opera. Other memorable moments for me are the woman’s chorus at the beginning of Act II and the singing of the Dutchman’s ghostly crew in Act III. Not a bad opera by any means, but I prefer listening to the other nine on a more routine basis.

Favorite part: Act II: Senta’s Ballad

That is my personal ranking of the Wagner operas and my favorite parts from each one. I by no means dislike any of these operas and I am glad that Wagner was able to compose ten fantastic operas for people to discuss for generations. Wagner is my favorite opera composer and I am certain I will revisit these operas for years to come.


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## Itullian

^^^^Very nicely said! Thanks for your opinion.
Enjoy the operas!


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## Seattleoperafan

I'm late to the game:
1. Tristan
2 Gotterdammerung
3. Walkure
4. Lohengrin
5. Siegfried
6. Parsifal
7. Dutchman
I don't really listen to the rest.


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## zxxyxxz

As I love lists:

1. Tristan und Isolde
utter perfection, nothing more needs to be said.
Favourite recording: Sawallisch Bayereuth 1958

2. Siegfried 
with a swift pace, characterful male cast and Windgassen singing a fantastic opera that never lets up the excitement. Interestingly despite loving the plot this was the ring opera that took me the longest to warm up to. 
Favourite recording: Böhm Bayereuth 1965

3. Götterdämmerung
the third act is almost perfection, the orchestra at the very end is perfection moves me everytime.
Favourite recording: Maazel Bayereuth 1968

4. Die Walküre
Still very good, I find it can drag a little at times. However stellar moments for Wotan and Siegmund. I love the duet between Siegmund and Brunnhilde.
Favourite recording: Furtwangler Rome RAI 1953

5. Lohengrin
A consistently good, with stunning preludes. The Lohengrin/Elsa duet is lovely. In Fernem Land is for me one of the most powerful and gripping things ever written.
Favourite recording: Jochum Bayereuth 1954

6. Tannhäuser
I love the start of act 1 with Tannhäuser and Venus, the song contest and a lot of act 3. However I do find some parts less than stellar, I find the end of act 2 drags. 
Favourite recording: Cluytens Bayereuth 1955

7. Das Rheingold
A strong cast is needed and I think a good sense of pace. I often struggle with where to rank it as on a good day and being fired up to listen to the ring I think its immense.
Favourite recording: Böhm Bayereuth 1965

8. Rienzi
Leagues better than dutchman, perhaps as I prefer tenors. It can be a little inconsistent in places and I am glad my favourite version doesn't try to be complete. I love the prayer to rome, which transcends the rest of the opera.
Favourite recording: Von Matacic Stuttguart 1957

9. Die Meistersingers
I find it can be a touch slow but has a charming plot that's miles better than Parsifal. 
Favourite recording: Cluytens Bayereuth 1956

10. Parsifal
The plot irritates me no end. The music is sublime and moving. No other opera has ever made we want to pray.
Favourite recording: Knappertbusch Bayereuth 1952


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## Barbebleu

A fine idiosyncratic list zyyxyyz. I have them all apart from the Rienzi. As I have three versions already I may pass as it’s not one of my favourite Wagner operas. If you were to pick a Holländer which would it be?


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## zxxyxxz

I would have Fricsay 1953, the pacing is good and it has Windgassen. I just prefer the other 10.


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## annaw

How on earth I'm supposed to rank them...? I'm going to give it a try nevertheless.

*1. Parsifal*
I think it's the most mature and cohesive work. Although _Tristan_ is very focused as well, I find _Parsifal_ to be more "all-embracing" in philosophical sense. I think Wagner said straightforwardly very little in _Parsifal_, made very little evident. The deep meaning is something that one has to look for below the surface - a wonderful example of what Hemingway called the Iceberg theory.

*2. Die Walküre*
Wotan is my favourite Wagner character - that should explain it's high place in my ranking. One of the most moving Wagner operas and also the first one I ever heard.

*3. Tristan und Isolde*
This is just a mad opera!! How on earth a human-being can come up with something like this, I don't know. I think musically the most revolutionary and a great example of a happy ending in Wagner's style.

*4. Götterdämmerung*
Musically the most epic Ring opera but it doesn't have a glorious and majestic bass-baritone. BUT it has the Immolation scene and it's certainly the climax of Wagner's Ring.

*5. Die Meistersinger*
A wonderful mature comic opera. I started understanding the genius of its word play only after I had seen the Met production. Such a sunny work and I love Sachs!

*6. Siegfried*
It took me some time to warm up to but now that I have started to love Stolze and Windgassen and understand the importance of Siegfried's character, I've also become to appreciate this more highly. This might be even more comical than Die Meistersinger.

*7. Das Rheingold*
I have always liked Das Rheingold, it has the young brash Wotan and it's a wonderful depiction of the original myth.

*8. Lohengrin*
For me this has always been the outsider among the Wagner operas, thematically. It doesn't seem to have the usual redemption motif the same way as Ring, Parsifal and Tannhäuser do. I have found it difficult to understand what exactly Wagner wanted to say. (Ideas?)

*9.-10. Holländer & Tannhäuser*
I think Holländer is more character-focused and an early foreshadow of Wotan, Kundry and Amfortas. I think this is also the most youthful among Wagner's mature operas - the fun choruses and lots of plain rhythm. Tannhäuser has some utterly beautiful music but I think the plot is not as engaging although I find it to be more Wagnerian than Lohengrin.


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## Granate

Granate said:


> It's hot and Bruckner No.9 repeated listening is driving me nuts, not to say I'm not very keen on doing a _Les Contes d'Hoffmann_ challenge now that I've watched the first two hours.
> 
> 1. Tristan und Isolde
> 2. Die Walküre
> 3. Parsifal
> 4. Das Rheingold
> 5. Lohengrin
> 6. Tannhäuser
> 7. Götterdämmerung
> 8. Die Flegende Höllander
> 9. Siegfried
> ...
> ...
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> 10. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


:lol: I would rise Parsifal to the top now, and place Lohengrin above Rheingold. Just that. I still think this was my smartest top.


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## zxxyxxz

I do love seeing how other people rank and what they enjoy and what they like emphasised in a performance or opera in general.

I do feel rather alone in my Siegfried love. And a bit of an outsider in my parsifal rating.


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## Woodduck

annaw said:


> *8. Lohengrin*
> For me this has always been the outsider among the Wagner operas, thematically. It doesn't seem to have the usual redemption motif the same way as Ring, Parsifal and Tannhäuser do. I have found it difficult to understand what exactly Wagner wanted to say. (Ideas?)


_Lohengrin_ is more than a simple fairy tale in which a prince charming from a faraway land tries to rescue an innocent maiden from an evil sorceress. I think the stumbling block to understanding it is the impossible task Wagner set himself in trying to represent a moral/philosophical ideal in human form. Nevertheless, the tragedy which ensues when mankind is asked to intuit and assimilate the ideal is beautifully and poignantly expressed.


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> _Lohengrin_ is more than a simple fairy tale in which a prince charming from a faraway land tries to rescue an innocent maiden from an evil sorceress. I think the stumbling block to understanding it is the impossible task Wagner set himself in trying to represent a moral/philosophical ideal in human form. *Nevertheless, the tragedy which ensues when mankind is asked to intuit and assimilate the ideal is beautifully and poignantly expressed.*


Thanks! This makes a lot of sense - I haven't thought about that before. Now that I do, I also see that Lohengrin is probably the least human among Wagner characters.


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## SixFootScowl

Right now I have Der Fliegende Holländer at the top of my list. After that, the Ring. I just can't figure an order for the remaining five operas but the early three don't make my list.


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## Woodduck

annaw said:


> Thanks! This makes a lot of sense - I haven't thought about that before. Now that I do, I also see that Lohengrin is probably the least human among Wagner characters.


Think of Lohengrin as an idealized self-portrait of Wagner, who wrote of the desire of the artist to be understood through feeling. It's a romantic view of the artist as a vessel and revealer of truth whose superior vision makes him a lonely spirit yearning for love among humans who can't fully understand him.


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## annaw

Woodduck said:


> Think of Lohengrin as an idealized self-portrait of Wagner, who wrote of the desire of the artist to be understood through feeling. It's a romantic view of the artist as a vessel and revealer of truth whose superior vision makes him a lonely spirit yearning for love among humans who can't fully understand him.


I start getting a feeling that Wagner's works should really be analysed through himself - your interpretation is so logical that I don't know how I've managed to read the libretto without actually understanding much beyond what's evident from the surface of the story. I confused myself with some analyses early on when I first listened to _Lohengrin_ and haven't given it too much thought after that. Finally _Lohengrin_, too, strikes me as Wagnerian!


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## amfortas

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> Last month, I used a combination of this forum's posts and Spotify to familiarize myself with notable recordings of the ten major Wagner operas and the ideas/discussion surrounding each one of them. I listened to Meistersinger, Tannhauser, Tristan, and Lohengrin all for the very first time. I am very familiar with the Ring operas and the Dutchman, so I did not do much re-listening of those operas. I listened to Parsifal a little more closely this time around and it was a lot better than how I remembered it when I saw it at the Met for the first time a few years back. With all of the operas fresh on my mind. I think that I can now make a ranking of the ten operas.
> 
> 1. Die Walkure: This one was and remains my favorite of all of the Wagner operas. This opera always keeps my attention and it has my favorite selections from all of Wagner's music. Right from the prelude, I know that this opera is ready to fire on all cylinders. I like the story and I also really enjoy the characters (my favorites are Wotan and Hunding). It is both my favorite Wagner opera and my favorite opera in general.
> 
> Favorite Part: Wotan's Farewell and Magic Fire Music
> 
> 2. Tristan und Isolde: When I first watched an old Bayreuth performance of this opera on television, I was not sure what I thought about it. It did not have the action of the Ring and it was not as reflective/spiritual as Parsifal, but the key for me is in the music. The music in this opera, as I am sure many of you would agree, is incredible. The lietmotifs and themes of this opera are very memorable and are full of complexities. The story, while it is kind of basic in my opinion, is really intriguing when you think about how Wagner conveys the emotions Tristan and Isolde are feeling in music. They were enemies, but now because of the potion, they cannot stop themselves from lusting for the other. It is quite the dilemma and the music expresses this very effectively While it does not have the action of other Wagner operas, the music is more than enough to make you come back again and again.
> 
> Favorite parts: So Sterben Wir (Act II) and the Act II Prelude
> 
> 3. Parsifal: Parsifal is the one that I was debating about concerning where I would rank it on my list. Like Tristan, this opera benefits from having incredible music brought to a story that I do not think is as impressive (at face value at least). I was not that impressed or moved by the story the first time I watched it; however, once I got familiar with the ideas/themes behind the story, I felt that the opera had a much greater impact on me personally than before. There are some heavy themes floating around this opera and the music succeeds in playing up the drama. Now that I have a better understanding of the opera, it shot up my top ten drastically (used to be one of my least favorites). It is definitely not the first Wagner opera I would recommend, especially for a newcomer, but I thoroughly enjoy it.
> 
> Favorite parts: Act I. Verwandlungmusik and Act II Prelude
> 
> 4. Siegfried: This might be a surprising pick, but I really like Siegfried. I enjoy the characters (even Mime) and there is plenty of good music to go around. I particularly like the second act of this opera when Siegfried fights Fafner. It may be blasphemy to rank this over Gotterdamerung, but I find Siegfried to be a much easier re-listen than Gotterdamerung. I'll occasionally listen to an act or two from Siegfried, but I really have to concentrate to listen to Gotterdamerung. I am also not a huge fan of Hagen because I do not like his music or singing as much as other villains in the Ring (Alberich, Hunding, Fafner). Overall, I find this opera to be a lot of fun with some strong moments.
> 
> Favorite parts: Act I: Hoho, Hohei! Schmeide, Mein Hammer and Act III: Heil dir, Sonne. Heil dir, Licht
> 
> 5. Die Meistersingers von Nurnberg: This one was a very pleasant surprise for me. Up until last month, the only thing I knew about this opera was the famous overture. As I was listening to it, I could not believe that it was Wagner. There were no gods and giants and no one was dying; moreover, the music was light and sounded almost comical. The characters were entertaining and there are some very charming parts like Walther's prize song. It is a long opera, but I enjoyed every second of it. Would love to see this one live.
> 
> Favorite part: Act II: Jerum! Jerum!
> 
> 6. Das Rhinegold: It was difficult deciding between whether or not I should rank Gotterdamerung above Rhinegold. When I considered to which opera I re-listen to the most and which one has more highlights for me, I had to admit that I listen to Rhinegold so much more. It is much shorter than the other Ring operas and as a result, the plot moves at a very quick pace. Characters pop in and out throughout the opera, but it is a testament to an opera when I can remember all of their themes (the Rhinemaidens, Alberich, the giants, Wotan, Loge, etc). You also can't forget the prelude and Rhine theme, which sets up the entire saga and is brilliantly brought back at the end of this opera. There is a lot to love from this opera and I re-listen to it often.
> 
> Favorite parts: Act I: Shanft Schloss Schlaf Dein Aug, Verwandlungmusik Nibelheim, Act III: Heda, Heda, Hedo
> 
> 7. Gotterdamerung: As I mentioned above, there are some things about Gotterdamerung that I am not the biggest fan of; in particular, Hagen and its re-playability for me. I understand that something like re-playability is very subjective. I agree that there are some incredible parts of this opera (Siegfried's Rhine Journey, the Funeral Music, the ending), but I think that they are too far in between for me. I would be incorrect to say that it is not a satisfying conclusion to the Ring Cycle; I think that it does it in spectacular fashion. It just doesn't get the same amount of listening for me as do the other six operas on this list.
> 
> Favorite part: Act III: Brunnhilde's Immolation Scene
> 
> 8. Lohengrin: Ranking Lohengrin this low is by no means indicative of an issue I have with this opera. On the contrary, it is the opera that I have been going back to for re-listening to see if it will climb up the top ten. As indicated by its ranking, it is my current favorite opera of Wagner's "earlier" works. This is due to some incredible arias by Elsa and Lohengrin and King Heinrich's march, which is fast becoming one of my top 5 favorite moments in all of Wagner's operas. I've heard some recordings of the march that get me hyped beyond belief. It sits at eighth for now, but I would not be surprised if Lohengrin climbs up the ranks in the future.
> 
> Favorite part: Act III: Heil, Konig Heinrich
> 
> 9. Tannhuaser: First things first: the overture to Tannhauser is my favorite overture from all of Wagner's operas. The theme of the pilgrims is one of my favorite bits from Wagner and in all of classical music. The opera itself has some great singing too such as Venus' opening lines, the song contest in Act II, and the procession of the pilgrims in Act III. This one falls towards the bottom of the list because with the exception of Tannhauser and Venus, the other characters don't quite catch my interest. There are some good hunting calls from the brass and other good moments throughout, but I think Wagner has more to offer in the previous eight works. In the end, I do find a lot of joy out of this opera.
> 
> Favorite part: Act III: Pilgrim's Chorus
> 
> 10. Die Fliegende Hollander: The earliest Wagner opera on this list suffers from being compared to the operas made later in Wagner's career. I've listened to this one a couple of times and I have seen it live before as well, but it never quite hits my emotions the same as the other operas on this list. The Flying Dutchman has his famous song in Act I and Senta has her ballad in Act II, which are the two biggest highlights in the opera. Other memorable moments for me are the woman's chorus at the beginning of Act II and the singing of the Dutchman's ghostly crew in Act III. Not a bad opera by any means, but I prefer listening to the other nine on a more routine basis.
> 
> Favorite part: Act II: Senta's Ballad
> 
> That is my personal ranking of the Wagner operas and my favorite parts from each one. I by no means dislike any of these operas and I am glad that Wagner was able to compose ten fantastic operas for people to discuss for generations. Wagner is my favorite opera composer and I am certain I will revisit these operas for years to come.


An excellent list--mostly because it's not that far off from mine.

One thing, though: Tristan and Isolde love each other *before* they drink the potion. The potion just enables them to admit it, to themselves and to each other.


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## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I start getting a feeling that Wagner's works should really be analysed through himself - your interpretation is so logical that I don't know how I've managed to read the libretto without actually understanding much beyond what's evident from the surface of the story. I confused myself with some analyses early on when I first listened to _Lohengrin_ and haven't given it too much thought after that. Finally _Lohengrin_, too, strikes me as Wagnerian!


The struggles, aspirations and quests of Wagner's heroes are very much allegories of his own personal emotional and intellectual trials, and I think that's why they're so powerful. The Dutchman, condemned to wander the stormy seas until he can find love faithful unto death; Tannhauser, torn between ideals and instincts which he can't integrate; Lohengrin, inhabitant of a rarefied world of beauty, longing for humanity but forever doubted and misunderstood; Tristan, born to suffer in a loveless world of rigid caste and custom, dying for a vision of love; Walther, anarchic genius of music who must learn to pursue his art while respecting tradition and embracing civilization in all its folly; Siegmund, the lonely stranger who sees things differently from others, carries the weight of misunderstanding and rejection, and seeks his soulmate; Siegfried, who finds love but finds that it cannot defend him against the world; Parsifal, who learns that compassion is a greater good than passion and a salvation from the pain of eternally renewing desire...

Wagner's works are his waking dreams.


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> The struggles, aspirations and quests of Wagner's heroes are very much allegories of his own personal emotional and intellectual trials, and I think that's why they're so powerful. The Dutchman, condemned to wander the stormy seas until he can find love faithful unto death; Tannhauser, torn between ideals and instincts which he can't integrate; Lohengrin, inhabitant of a rarefied world of beauty, longing for humanity but forever doubted and misunderstood; Tristan, born to suffer in a loveless world of rigid caste and custom, dying for a vision of love; Walther, anarchic genius of music who must learn to pursue his art while respecting tradition and embracing civilization in all its folly; Siegmund, the lonely stranger who sees things differently from others, carries the weight of misunderstanding and rejection, and seeks his soulmate; Siegfried, who finds love but finds that it cannot defend him against the world; Parsifal, who learns that compassion is a greater good than passion and a salvation from the pain of eternally renewing desire...
> 
> Wagner's works are his waking dreams.


I suspect much the same could be said about your posts, Woodduck.

(And yes, I mean that in the nicest way).


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## DavidA

amfortas said:


> An excellent list--mostly because it's not that far off from mine.
> 
> One thing, though: Tristan and Isolde love each other *before* they drink the potion. The potion just enables them to admit it, to themselves and to each other.


Just where does the libretto say this?


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## annaw

Woodduck said:


> The struggles, aspirations and quests of Wagner's heroes are very much allegories of his own personal emotional and intellectual trials, and I think that's why they're so powerful. The Dutchman, condemned to wander the stormy seas until he can find love faithful unto death; Tannhauser, torn between ideals and instincts which he can't integrate; Lohengrin, inhabitant of a rarefied world of beauty, longing for humanity but forever doubted and misunderstood; Tristan, born to suffer in a loveless world of rigid caste and custom, dying for a vision of love; Walther, anarchic genius of music who must learn to pursue his art while respecting tradition and embracing civilization in all its folly; Siegmund, the lonely stranger who sees things differently from others, carries the weight of misunderstanding and rejection, and seeks his soulmate; Siegfried, who finds love but finds that it cannot defend him against the world; Parsifal, who learns that compassion is a greater good than passion and a salvation from the pain of eternally renewing desire...
> 
> Wagner's works are his waking dreams.


Absolutely agreed! This is what made him so unique as an artist. It all rose from his own inner necessity and at times it seemed to take an immense effort from him to write those things down. I sometimes wonder if it was a similar effort as that of making a deep confession and bringing into light something one wouldn't wish to live through again. I find the process how he wrote his operas extremely fascinating and unique. I don't think anyone else before or after him has written an opera the same way as Wagner did.


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## annaw

DavidA said:


> Just where does the libretto say this?


I think it doesn't need explaining that Isolde certainly loved Tristan considering the whole Act I. She also states that multiple times later on. In Act II Tristan expresses that Day and Light, the world and the conventional rules of humans and society, didn't let him love Isolde like he wished to.

_Day! Day!
Which shimmered round about you,
to there where she
seemed like the sun
in highest honour's
radiant glow,
Isolde withdrew from me!
That which so
delighted my eye
made my heart sink
to the depths of the earth:
in the bright light of Day
how could Isolde be mine?_

It feels as if Tristan's final decision to bring Isolde as a bride for King Marke was a way he tried to reassure his loyalty, to push down his real feelings he couldn't express. Considering what Tristan said to Isolde before, it seems to me that the envy awakened only after he had promised to bring Isolde as a bride for King Marke. It doesn't seem reasonable that he felt envy because of someone else than Isolde:

_I bade defiance to
the envy which
Day awakened in me,
to the zeal which
threatened my happiness,
to the jealousy which began to make
honour and fame a burden to me,
and firmly resolved
to uphold honour and glory,
to go to Ireland._

Wagner said he had never experienced true love - true love for him seemed to be an utmost expression of it without restraints by the human society. The potion freed Tristan from all those worries, so did it free Isolde who acted based on her patriotic pride. I find _Tristan_'s libretto extremely complex and thus feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting something.


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## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I think it doesn't need explaining that Isolde certainly loved Tristan considering the whole Act I. She also states that multiple times later on. In Act II Tristan expresses that Day and Light, the world and the conventional rules of humans and society, didn't let him love Isolde like he wished to.
> 
> _Day! Day!
> Which shimmered round about you,
> to there where she
> seemed like the sun
> in highest honour's
> radiant glow,
> Isolde withdrew from me!
> That which so
> delighted my eye
> made my heart sink
> to the depths of the earth:
> in the bright light of Day
> how could Isolde be mine?_
> 
> It feels as if Tristan's final decision to bring Isolde as a bride for King Marke was a way he tried to reassure his loyalty, to push down his real feelings he couldn't express. Considering what Tristan said to Isolde before, it seems to me that the envy awakened only after he had promised to bring Isolde as a bride for King Marke. It doesn't seem reasonable that he felt envy because of someone else than Isolde:
> 
> _I bade defiance to
> the envy which
> Day awakened in me,
> to the zeal which
> threatened my happiness,
> to the jealousy which began to make
> honour and fame a burden to me,
> and firmly resolved
> to uphold honour and glory,
> to go to Ireland._
> 
> Wagner said he had never experienced true love - true love for him seemed to be an utmost expression of it without restraints by the human society. The potion freed Tristan from all those worries, so did it free Isolde who acted based on her patriotic pride. I find _Tristan_'s libretto extremely complex and thus feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting something.


You've got it. It's perfectly clear. The fact that DavidA hasn't got it after so many years of listening to the opera and hanging around TC, where this has been discussed multiple times, is beyond comprehension. Some people seem not to want to learn, but only to provoke.

Isolde also makes her feelings perfectly clear as she muses, _Mir erkoren, mir verloren_ ("chosen for me, lost to me"), and _Er_ _sah mir in die Augen_ ("he looked into my eyes"). Her complex feelings are beautifully delineated in her words and music. Tristan's stilted, aloof behavior aboard ship, too, and the remarkably cryptic conversation he has with Isolde, can only be understood properly as his attempt to suppress his feelings. And, finally, the only explanation for their attempt to die together is the painful impossibility of their living together.

As always, Wagner is opera's greatest musical psychologist. :lol:


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## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> I suspect much the same could be said about your posts, Woodduck.
> 
> (And yes, I mean that in the nicest way).


Wagner's dreams were more epic than most of mine, but at least we can experience his vicariously through his art.

I did dream about Birgit Nilsson once. She was singing Brunnhilde's immolation scene against a wall of flames while a huge black snake was speeding down a railroad track.


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## Itullian

When Isolde holds the sword and is going to kill Tantris, who is really Tristan, instead of looking at the sword, Tantris looks into her eyes and the gaze pierces her heart and Isolde cannot kill him.
It's right there.

And i believe you hear the love/longing motif at that time.


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## annaw

Woodduck said:


> As always, Wagner is opera's greatest musical psychologist. :lol:


Totally!

Thanks to this thread I'm listening to _So starben wir_ at the moment (sung by Flagstad and Suthaus) - this is so amazing!!


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

I'm late to this party but happy to number meself among the few who number _Parisfal_ first and foremost. Wagner is among my Top Ten composers and _Parsifal_ still sends shivers, as does the 'runner-up.' I should say I'm biased in part because I've read the Wolfram von Eschenbach work on which it's more or less based several times and so am committed to both story and music. RE: the former it_ is_ admittedly something of a hurdle for first time listeners: a suspension of disbelief works wonders in it as, in fact, throughout most of Wagner's oeuvre. While the symbolism is complexly compelling and affords hours of contemplation and discovery, despite the mysticism, _Parsifal _is an extraordinarily human story. I favor Knappertsbusch's '62 Philips live recording with Karajan's 79/80 DG a close second.

1. Parsifal
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Die Walküre
4. Götterdämmerung
5. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
8. Der Fliegende Holländer
9. Siegfried
10.Tannhäuser


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> I did dream about Birgit Nilsson once. She was singing Brunnhilde's immolation scene against a wall of flames while a huge black snake was speeding down a railroad track.


I've had that exact dream. We must have seen the same production.


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## Ned Low

Is it too late to post here?
I. Parsifal( this opera means perfection to me 
II. Tristan und Isolde
III. Gotterdammerung
IV. Die Walküre 
V. Siegfried 
VI. Das Rheingold
VII. Lohengrin 
VIII. Der Fliegende Hollander 
IX. Tannhauser ( it's a mess really. How could he who wrote and composed Parzival and Lohengrin make such a mess?)
*I didn't write Die Meistersingers because unfortunately i haven't had the chance to listen to it.


----------



## Ulfilas

Ah, well, I missed this the first time! I know these operas quite well as I coach a certain Heldentenor.

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Götterdämmerung
3. Parsifal
4. Siegfried
5. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
6. Die Walküre
7. Lohengrin
8. Das Rheingold
9. Der Fliegende Holländer
10. Tannhäuser

A fair amount of consensus here!


----------



## Barbebleu

I’m pretty sure I already posted a list here back in the day but.....

1= Holländer, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Rheingold, Walküre, a bit of Siegfried, Tristan, Meistersinger, the rest of Siegfried, Götterdämmerung and Parsifal. That’s today. Tomorrow, who knows? :tiphat:

And I definitely wouldn’t have Tannhäuser last on any list!


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> I'm pretty sure I already posted a list here back in the day but.....
> 
> 1= Holländer, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Rheingold, Walküre, a bit of Siegfried, Tristan, Meistersinger, the rest of Siegfried, Götterdämmerung and Parsifal. That's today. Tomorrow, who knows? :tiphat:
> 
> And I definitely wouldn't have Tannhäuser last on any list!


Is your top "1" or "10" :lol: ? And what is "a bit of Siegfried"?


----------



## adriesba

I can't even decide what my favorite food is. Then how is ranking Wagner's operas even possible? :lol:


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> Is your top "1" or "10" :lol: ? And what is "a bit of Siegfried"?


"a bit of Siegfried" sounds like an entertainment put on by the inhabitants of Tilling in E. F. Benson's Mapp and Lucia!

N.


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## SixFootScowl

Hard to rank but the first six in my list are definitely favored over the last four for now:

1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
2. Der Fliegende Holländer
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Die Walküre
5. Siegfried
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
3. Parsifal
9. Tristan und Isolde
10. Tannhäuser


----------



## nina foresti

Parsifal
Gotterdammerung
Die Walkure
Lohengrin
Tristan und Isolde
Das Rheingold


----------



## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Is your top "1" or "10" :lol: ? And what is "a bit of Siegfried"?


Well they are all first equal and he stopped writing Siegfried to do Tristan and Meistersinger then resumed working on Siegfried. But you already knew that. I'm pretty sure my list was in compositional order! You can hear how more sophisticated his music was after Meistersinger. I like to think that if he'd lived a bit longer we would have had revised versions of his earlier works. Definitely Tannhäuser because he admitted that himself.


----------



## Barbebleu

SixFootScowl said:


> Hard to rank but the first six in my list are definitely favored over the last four for now:
> 
> 1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> 2. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 3. Götterdämmerung
> 4. Die Walküre
> 5. Siegfried
> 6. Das Rheingold
> 7. Lohengrin
> 3. Parsifal
> 9. Tristan und Isolde
> 10. Tannhäuser


Ah, provocative as ever Six! Parsifal at 8? Woodduck will be unhappy. :lol:


----------



## realdealblues

Never really thought about this. I guess I will list them in the order that I most frequently listen to them in.

1. Die Walkure
2. Das Rheingold
3. Siegfried
4. Gotterdammerung
5. Parsifal
6. Der Fliegende Hollander
7. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
8. Tristan und Isolde
9. Tannhauser
10. Lohengrin


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## OlgatheGreat

1. Parsifal
2. Lohengrin

I don't love Wagner, but I have learned to appreciate his originality after much study and careful listening. Parsifal and Lohengrin are the two that I enjoy listening to "voluntarily." Parsifal, it took me a long time to get into. I had to pay really close attention to the subtle variations, but once I did, it was rapturous. The music is transcendent. And it's the only opera where the subject matter seems to warrant Wagner's pretentiousness. Lohengrin, I simply enjoy. Particularly Act II, scene 1 (Ortrud!).

3. Die Walkure
4. Flying Dutchman
5. Gotterdamerung
6. Tristan and Isolde
7. Siegfried
8. Das Rheingold

With the Ring cycle, I find Dvorak's comment accurate: Wagner has some lovely moments, and some awful quarters of an hour. There are moments in it that I greatly enjoy. The scene where Siegmund turns to leave, lamenting that he brings misery wherever he goes, and Sieglinde interjected that misery can't come where it already exists. The first conversation between Brunhilde and Siegmund, where she invites him to Valhalla and the music rises consecutively with greater promises. Every conversation between Wotan and Erda. These scenes work both dramatically and musically. But they last only a few minutes and between them are long stretches of recitative that require great patience to sit through. 

I also don't love how the music does it own thing, using leitmotivs to comment on the action, with little care for the sung words or the coherence of the whole piece. 

Tristan and Isolde, I recognize its originality and can appreciate the unresolved tension, but just don't find it, you know, satisfying. But I'm spending more time with it now, so that may change. Flying Dutchman is pretty good. Conventional, but not in a bad way.

9. Tannhauser

The only work that I continue to have a visceral negative reaction to. I just want to turn it off every time it starts. To be fair, I had that reaction time few hours on this list, so maybe I just need to get over the hump. But the faux pious story makes it least appealing to do so.

(Left of Mister singer, since I haven't listened to it enough to have an opinion.)


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Ah, provocative as ever Six! Parsifal at 8? Woodduck will be unhappy. :lol:


These ended up last, sadly because they have so far been neglected by me.

7. Lohengrin
3. Parsifal
9. Tristan und Isolde
10. Tannhäuser

But the more I think about it, Tannhauser should move to position 7 or higher. Of the three that I think of as Wagner's Trinity, because of Christian theological/mythological themes, Tannhauser (let's see if I remember this one correctly) is the most relevant as I think Christians struggling against sin can, in many aspects, identify with Tannhauser.


----------



## Ulfilas

SixFootScowl said:


> These ended up last, sadly because they have so far been neglected by me.
> 
> 7. Lohengrin
> 3. Parsifal
> 9. Tristan und Isolde
> 10. Tannhäuser
> 
> But the more I think about it, Tannhauser should move to position 7 or higher. Of the three that I think of as Wagner's Trinity, because of Christian theological/mythological themes, Tannhauser (let's see if I remember this one correctly) is the most relevant as I think Christians struggling against sin can, in many aspects, identify with Tannhauser.


Interesting perspective. Wagner was hardly an orthodox Christian, but that was certainly the way his works were perceived by many in the nineteenth century (Parsifal was thought to be morally uplifting). It's worth having a read of Alex Ross's new book Wagnerism.

I'd have to have Tristan near or at the top of the list.


----------



## Itullian

1 Dutchman
1 Tannhauser
1 Lohengrin
1 Das Rheingold
1 Die Walkure
1 Siegfried
1 Gotterdammerung
1 Tristan
1 Meistersinger
1 Parsifal


----------



## annaw

Itullian said:


> 1 Dutchman
> 1 Tannhauser
> 1 Lohengrin
> 1 Das Rheingold
> 1 Die Walkure
> 1 Siegfried
> 1 Gotterdammerung
> 1 Tristan
> 1 Meistersinger
> 1 Parsifal


Ahh, what a beautiful list this is !!


----------



## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Ahh, what a beautiful list this is !!


But AnnaW, this is the same as my list!:lol:

Post #431


----------



## adriesba

Itullian said:


> 1 Dutchman
> 1 Tannhauser
> 1 Lohengrin
> 1 Das Rheingold
> 1 Die Walkure
> 1 Siegfried
> 1 Gotterdammerung
> 1 Tristan
> 1 Meistersinger
> 1 Parsifal


Yes! Same here!


----------



## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> 1 Dutchman
> 1 Tannhauser
> 1 Lohengrin
> 1 Das Rheingold
> 1 Die Walkure
> 1 Siegfried
> 1 Gotterdammerung
> 1 Tristan
> 1 Meistersinger
> 1 Parsifal


Probably the best way to put it as they are all great!


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> But AnnaW, this is the same as my list!:lol:


Hahaha, my apologies. I don't doubt your sworn Wagnerism :lol:!


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> 1 Dutchman
> 1 Tannhauser
> 1 Lohengrin
> 1 Das Rheingold
> 1 Die Walkure
> 1 Siegfried
> 1 Gotterdammerung
> 1 Tristan
> 1 Meistersinger
> 1 Parsifal


I knew ahead of time which opera itullian would rate 1st, and I was right! :lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> 1 Dutchman
> 1 Tannhauser
> 1 Lohengrin
> 1 Das Rheingold
> 1 Die Walkure
> 1 Siegfried
> 1 Gotterdammerung
> 1 Tristan
> 1 Meistersinger
> 1 Parsifal


But Itullian, if there was a gun at your head what would be your 'primus inter pares'?


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> But Itullian, if there was a gun at your head what would be your 'primus inter pares'?


I'd have to flip a coin


----------



## adriesba

Itullian said:


> I'd have to flip a coin


Or roll a ten-sided dice, do eeny, meeny, miny, moe, or just say whatever was the last one you remember listening to! :lol:


----------



## adriesba

The OP asks about Wagner's mature operas, but I wonder if those who have heard his three early operas could rank those since they are on a different level in a way. (?) I like all three, but those I could rank:

1. _Rienzi
_2._ Die Feen
_3._ Das Liebesverbot

_There! I did the impossible and ranked three Wagner operas! :trp: :clap:


----------



## SixFootScowl

adriesba said:


> The OP asks about Wagner's mature operas, but I wonder if those who have heard his three early operas could rank those since they are on a different level in a way. (?) I like all three, but those I could rank:
> 
> 1. _Rienzi
> _2._ Die Feen
> _3._ Das Liebesverbot
> 
> _There! I did the impossible and ranked three Wagner operas! :trp: :clap:


Not familiar with these. Have them but rarely listen. I wonder if there are even any very good recordings of any of these?

Couple of brief threads on the early Wagner operas:

Best recordings of Wagner's 3 early operas...

Have you heard Wagner's early operas?


----------



## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> Not familiar with these. Have them but rarely listen. I wonder if there are even any very good recordings of any of these?
> 
> Couple of brief threads on the early Wagner operas:
> 
> Best recordings of Wagner's 3 early operas...
> 
> Have you heard Wagner's early operas?


There are - the Downes recordings are good and the most complete; really the best options. They are becoming hard to find though, especially _Rienzi_.

_Die Feen _and _Das Liebesverbot _are in the DG Wagner Complete Operas box which is probably best downloaded instead of actually buying the discs at this point. Getting the libretti for these is difficult though since DG took them off their website. 

For _Rienzi_, there are a few options. There is Opera Depot, but their release has bad sound quality. There is the Ponto release from 2005, but I have only seen it for sale maybe twice in the past five or so years. This place called Oriel Music Trust also has it in their catalogue, but I have not ordered from them and can thus not recommend nor discourage getting it from them. It is also listed on a questionable website that I won't link.

Getting a complete libretto for _Rienzi _is also problematic. But if you Google Translate this: http://www.murashev.com/opera/Rienzi_libretto_German# and supplement it with the libretto from the Hollreiser recording, you will have most of it.


----------



## Lilam

1. Die Meistersinger
2. Parsifal
3. Die Walkure
4. Tristan and Isolde
5. Flying Dutchman

I enjoy some of the theme music from others but these 5 are the only full Wagner operas I really like.


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## damianjb1

OK - here goes.
1. Die Meistersinger
2. Tristan
3. Parsifal
4. Die Walkure
5. Gotterdamerung
6. Tannhauser
7. Lohengrin
8. Siegfried
9. Das Rheingold
10. Dutchman


----------



## SixFootScowl

Today:

1. Die Meistersinger
2. Tannhauser
3. Dutchman 
4. Die Walkure
5. Gotterdamerung
6. Siegfried
7. Das Rheingold

and I don't know the order here:
Tristan
Parsifal
Lohengrin


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## Richard di Calatrava

I agree with scytheavatar about Siegfried - it's probably my favourite Ring opera too and -yes- you (obviously) need a great (not just good) protagonist! About Windgassen, may I recommend Opera Depot's 1965 Bohm/Bayreuth Ring? Windgassen is MUCH FRESHER than either for Solti or (more relevant) in the COMMERCIAL release of the 1966/7 Bohm Ring with most of the same casting. I actually find the whole 1965 cycle superior; maybe it's because of the excitement of a first run for this production? Excellent sound.

And, by the way, Windgassen is also a fun Loge!


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## Richard di Calatrava

I respect your opinion but am surprised that you find the two acts of Siegfried the least interesting in the Ring because of their all-male structure. How are you with Billy Budd [smiley face]???


----------



## Richard di Calatrava

scytheavatar said:


> 1. Tristan und Isolde
> 1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (tie)
> 3. Siegfried
> 4. Die Walküre
> 5. Götterdämmerung
> 6. Das Rheingold
> 7. Lohengrin
> 8. Tannhäuser
> 9. Parsifal
> 10. Der Fliegende Holländer
> 
> I know that Die Walküre is the most popular of the 4 parts of Der Ring, but I always have Siegfried as my favorite..... provided a good Siegfried is singing in it, which admittedly is extremely rare. I have a feeling that those who rate Siegfried lowly hasn't heard a good Siegfried yet (i.e not Windgassen in Solti's recording). I agree that Parsifal has too little badass dramatic moments compared to his other operas (the only notable one is the awakening scene) but I am surprised by Almaviva's low rating of Die Meistersinger, which to me is easily his most consistent and complete opera with the least boring moments.


I agree with scytheavatar about Siegfried - it's probably my favourite Ring opera too and -yes- you (obviously) need a great (not just good) protagonist! About Windgassen, may I recommend Opera Depot's 1965 Bohm/Bayreuth Ring? Windgassen is MUCH FRESHER than either for Solti or (more relevant) in the COMMERCIAL release of the 1966/7 Bohm Ring with most of the same casting. I actually find the whole 1965 cycle superior; maybe it's because of the excitement of a first run for this production? Excellent sound.

And, by the way, Windgassen is also a fun Loge!


----------



## Richard di Calatrava

Almaviva said:


> But it's not a low rating for Die Meistersinger. I love it! It's one of my favorite operas, considering all other composers. It's just that I love the other five even more.
> Tristan und Isolde and Lohengrin get me to tears every time. And I just love the Ring so much that I don't mind the down moments in my three preferred segments. Siegfried on the other hand, I love for the third act, but I don't care as much for the first and second acts (which I consider to be the least interesting moments of the whole Ring with their male voice-only structure), thus its lower position - again, lower as compared to all these masterpieces, because as a matter of fact I love all ten major Wagner operas, it's just that I love Parsifal and Holländer less than I love the other eight. See, I really love Tannhäuser too, but I place Siegfried higher because of its third act.
> 
> Let's consider that my top 8 are almost a tie for first, and only Parsifal and Holländer are a little less highly regarded (but still pretty high as compared to operas of other composers).


I respect your opinion but am surprised that you find the two acts of Siegfried the least interesting in the Ring because of their all-male structure. How are you with Billy Budd [smiley face]???


----------



## OperaFans2002

This is my opinion, it's up to you. I've never seen Parsifal, Wagner's last Opera, maybe if I go back to Bayreuth I'll watch it.

1. Das Rheingold (My Favorite Wagner Opera, I like the creative storyline, especially when the Gods enter Valhala)
2. Tristan und Isolde (Who doesn't know this opera, I like Liebestod's scene the most)
3. Gotterdammerung (The duration is long but worth watching)
4. Tannhauser (The Overture is phenomenal and the groove is very emotional)
5. Meistersinger von Nurnberg (the first Wagner Opera I watched live, very, very long, but entertaining at the same time)
6. Der Fliegender (The most interesting story in my opinion)
7. Lohengrin (Unique and realistic story, because it tells about lies)
8. Rienzi
9. Siegfried
10. Die Walkure (This opera is a bit overrated in my opinion, maybe I haven't found a point where I really like this opera, I will definitely watch this opera again when I come back to Bayreuth and will update my list)


----------



## Dick Johnson

The order changes, but today I would say:

1. Meistersinger - For the great music and the wonderfully human characterization of Hans Sachs. This is the Wagner opera that I relate with the most, personally. Meistersinger is full of life!
2. Tannhauser - Love the 1861 Paris version - (incidentally, the 1861 Parisians apparently did not). 
3. Tristan - Perhaps the most "important" musically - but not the one that I listen to the most. I enjoy the music (if not always the ideas) of Liebstod as well as the Prelude. 
4. Der Fliegender Hollander 
t5. Rheingold - Hard for me to split the Ring for ranking purposes but get the most continuous enjoyment from Rheingold and... 
t5. Seigfried - 
7. Gotterdamerung - when it's good it's very, very good, but there are longeurs for me.
8. Walkure - the long Wotan and Fricka recit (and others) puts it this low. The good parts are obviously great.
9. Lohengrin - I have been told that this one should be my favorite as a fan of Italian opera - and yet it hasn't resonated as strongly as the ones higher on the list. 
10. Parsifal - Like Tristan, this one is usually judged to be "important" but I haven't been able to connect with it yet - personally just not a fan of some of Wagner's thought influences like Renan. Your miles may vary.


----------



## HenryPenfold

1.Die Walküre 
2.Götterdämmerung 
3.Das Rheingold
3.Parsifal
4.Siegfried
5.Tristan Und Isolde
6. Mastersingers

Oops! I missed Lohengrin - what time's the next swan?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

I'm not a big Wagner fan, though I do have recordings of all the operas from *Der fliegende Holländer* onwards. My favourtes are:-

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Der fliegende Holländer
3. Tannhäuser (Paris version)
4. Götterdämmerung
5. Die Walküre
6. Lohengrin
7. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
8. Das Rheingold
9. Parsifal
10. Siegfried


----------



## Barbebleu

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not a big Wagner fan, though I do have recordings of all the operas from *Der fliegende Holländer* onwards. My favourtes are:-
> 
> 1. Tristan und Isolde
> 2. Der fliegende Holländer
> 3. Tannhäuser (Paris version)
> 4. Götterdämmerung
> 5. Die Walküre
> 6. Lohengrin
> 7. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
> 8. Das Rheingold
> 9. Parsifal
> 10. Siegfried


Ooh, controversial Tsaras! Parsifal at 9? What were you thinking?:lol:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Barbebleu said:


> Ooh, controversial Tsaras! Parsifal at 9? What were you thinking?:lol:


Well these are my personal favourites. I'm afraid I haven't really got to grips with *Parsifal* yet. Most of Act I I just wish Gurnemanz would stop droning on (sorry sacrilege, I know). I prefer *Camelot*, which Noel Coward once described as "*Parsifal* without the laughs". :devil:


----------



## ThaNotoriousNIC

It is close to a year since I began my Wagner binge last Spring (will be one year in May). I still listen to Wagner at least once a week at some point, mostly either Tristan, Lohengrin, or Parsifal. I think that Tristan and Parsifal have both music and themes that are still grabbing my interest and I am growing my appreciation for the music of Lohengrin. My ranking of the operas from last summer in this thread has kept steady despite me having not listened to the Ring Cycle for a while. If any rankings change, it could be that of Lohengrin if it surpasses Gotterdamerung


----------



## Woodduck

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well these are my personal favourites. I'm afraid I haven't really got to grips with *Parsifal* yet. Most of Act I I just wish Gurnemanz would stop droning on (sorry sacrilege, I know). I prefer *Camelot*, which Noel Coward once described as "*Parsifal* without the laughs". :devil:


Hahahahahahahaha! The genius of Coward. Irreplaceable.

I think I recall hpowders saying on this forum that the Act 1 narrative of Gurnemanz was one of his favorite parts of the opera. I like it enough to find that comprehensible, if only just. But then what to say about the preludes, the interludes, the temple scene, the Good Friday music, the final scene?

_Parsifal_ is the dream that Dr. Freud can't analyze. Sometimes a spear is just a spear.


----------



## Xisten267

I love, love Wagner, he is by far my favorite opera composer, yet unfortunately I still have almost no experience with recordings of his operas though. So, here are my choices today, that are heavily influenced by only one or two recordings of each opera that I have (I'll put my "reference" recordings for each one here):

1. Tristan und Isolde (Furtwängler, 1952);
2. Parsifal (Sinopoli, 1998);
3. Die Walküre (Sinopoli, 2000);
4. Götterdämmerung (Sinopoli, 2000);
5. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (Karajan, 1970);
6. Das Rheingold (Sinopoli, 2000);
7. Lohengrin (Varviso, 1966);
8. Tannhäuser (Solti, 1971);
9. Der fliegende Holländer (Solti, 1976);
10. Siegfried (Sinopoli, 2000).


----------



## Sonata

I go back and forth. Right now:

1) Lohengrin 
2) Parsifal
3) Götterdämmerung
4) Walkure
5) Tannhauser
6) Flying Dutchman
7) Meistersinger
8) Siegfried
9) Rienzi
10) Tristan (Liebestod is incredible of course)


----------



## Itullian

Sonata said:


> I go back and forth. Right now:
> 
> 1) Lohengrin
> 2) Parsifal
> 3) Götterdämmerung
> 4) Walkure
> 5) Tannhauser
> 6) Flying Dutchman
> 7) Meistersinger
> 8) Siegfried
> 9) Rienzi
> 10) Tristan (Liebestod is incredible of course)


Good to see you sonata. Should be Das Rheingold instead of Rienzi.


----------



## Sonata

Itullian said:


> Good to see you sonata. Should be Das Rheingold instead of Rienzi.


Thanks ! Good to be back . I'd go ahead and directly swap out Rienzi for Rhinegold.


----------



## Littlephrase

1) Tristan und Isolde 
2) Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
3) Die Walküre 
4) Parsifal 
5) Götterdämerung 
6) Das Rheingold 
7) Siegfried 
8) Tannhäuser 
9) Lohengrin 
10) Der Fliegende Höllander


----------



## Sloe

Barbebleu said:


> Ooh, controversial Tsaras! Parsifal at 9? What were you thinking?:lol:


They are all great so at ninth place it is not that bad but I would put Tannhäusser last I just haven´t been able to make myself fond of that opera.


----------



## MDJ

1. Tristan und Isolde (Nothing else in all opera or drama compares to T&I)
2. Parsifal (Nobody knows what it's about, but everybody knows that it is a miracle)
3. Siegfried (because of Act 3)
5. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (If you're not patient then it falls to last place)
4. Die Walküre (You don't even need to like Wagner to like Walküre)
6. Das Rheingold (R. did what Weill couldn't- put the communist manifesto to music)
7. Götterdämmerung (B. Shaw was right, it's a reversion to grand opera)
8. Lohengrin (The music is never better than the prelude, the plot is packed with nonsense)
9. Tannhäuser (if we consider the Paris version, then it bumps ahead of Lohengrin. The orgy music is as good as Tristan. Too bad that what follows isn't)
10. Der fliegende Holländer (Senta's obsession is obscene)


----------



## hypotenuse74

1. Parsifal (a miracle)
2. Die Walküre (Wotan's farewell is, in my opinion, the greatest scene of all Wagner's
Operas)
3. Tannhäuser (without act 2, I'd rank it first)
4. Das Rheingold (the most entertaining and catching opera)
5. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (long but so many great arias : Sach's monologue, Morgenlich leuchtend, Verachtet mir die Meister nicht)
6. Lohengrin (From In fernem Land to final bars, it's brillant, otherwise it's a bit dull)
7. Der Fliegende Höllander (act 3 is great, but the story kinda sucks)
9. Götterdämmerung (long, sometimes boring, the stupidity of characters bothers me. But tue ending is fantastic.

10. Tristan und Isolde.

I've seen and listened entirely all ten operas many times, and yes I don't care much for Tristan. I enjoy the ending (from Kurnewal, hör! To the final bars), but I find the rest of the opera boring and not moving at all. I especially hate the love duet, I've seen this opera three times and everytime, I almost fell asleep...


----------



## MAS

Tsaraslondon said:


> Most of Act I I just wish Gurnemanz would stop droning on (sorry sacrilege, I know)


Yes, I remember that interminable Act!

1. *Lohengrin*
2. *Die Wälkure*
3. *Götterdämmerung*
4. *Tannhäuser*
5. *Siegfried *
6. *Das Rheingold*
7. *Der Fliegender Höllander*


----------



## MAS

hypotenuse74 said:


> …I don't care much for Tristan….I find the rest of the opera boring and not moving at all. I especially hate the love duet, I've seen this opera three times and everytime, I almost fell asleep...


I can understand that. I couldn't ever get to the last Act to hear the Liebestod however many times I tried to stay. The Love Duet wore me out! I wished Wagner had premature ejaculation!


----------



## LeoPiano

Haven't heard all ten yet, but here's a go:

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Parsifal (Tristan and Parsifal can switch depending on the day)
3. Die Walkure
4. Gotterdammerung
5. Lohengrin
6. Das Rheingold
7. Siegfried


----------



## Op.123

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walkure
3. Gotterdammerung 
4. Parsifal
5. Tannhauser
6. Lohengrin
7. Siegfried 
8. Rheingold 
9. Die Miestersinger von Nurnberg 
10. Die Fliegende Hollander


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## RobertJTh

1. Parsifal
2. Gotterdammerung
3. Die Walkure
4. Tristan und Isolde
5. Siegfried
6. Rheingold
7. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg

Don't care:
Tannhauser - Lohengrin - Fliegende Hollander


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## Kreisler jr

Die Walküre
Tristan und Isolde
Meistersinger
Götterdämmerung
Parsifal
Siegfried
Rheingold
Der fliegende Holländer
Lohengrin
Tannhäuser


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## ScottK

I'm ranking these in order of preference, not in order of quality.

1. Walkure
2. Meistersinger
3. Parsifal
4. Rheingold
5. Gotterdammerung
6. Lohengrin
7. Dutchman
8. Tristan
9. Tannhauser
10. Siegfried


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## Woodduck

ScottK said:


> *I'm ranking these in order of preference, not in order of quality.*
> 
> 1. Walkure
> 2. Meistersinger
> 3. Parsifal
> 4. Rheingold
> 5. Gotterdammerung
> 6. Lohengrin
> 7. Dutchman
> 8. Tristan
> 9. Tannhauser
> 10. Siegfried


That's the only sensible policy when dealing with great works. Who can say definitively that _Tristan und Isolde_ is "better" than _Parsifal_ or _Gotterdammerung?_


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## McCall3

Der Ring (I see the four operas as one work and couldn’t really rank them individually)
Tristan und Isolde
Parsifal
Meistersinger
Hollander
Lohengrin
Tannhauser


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## ScottK

Woodduck said:


> That's the only sensible policy when dealing with great works. Who can say definitively that _Tristan und Isolde_ is "better" than _Parsifal_ or _Gotterdammerung?_


I do find myself at times mulling over "where the line is?" after which, we have to acknowledge what you just said. 
Tristan > Aroldo.....we're pretty safe. Tristan - Parsifal....as you say, too close. Is there a way of defining that spot, where the difference is no longer universal enough for an individual to make a categorical statement?


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## Ludwig Schon

A+
Gotterdammerung
Meistersingers
Parsifal

A-
Das Rheingold
Siegfried 
Tristan
Walkurie

B
Hollander

C
Tannhauser

D
Lohengrin


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## hammeredklavier

Woodduck said:


> Who can say definitively that _Tristan und Isolde_ is "better" than _Parsifal_ or _Gotterdammerung?_


_"Few operas make us cry. Tristan is one of them."_ https://www.appreciateopera.org/post/ranking-richard-wagner-s-operas


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## hammeredklavier

Ludwig Schon said:


> DMT ("The Businessman's Lunch"), because it condenses what seems like days into a 30min psychotropic trip, in which you encounter little green goblins…


It looks like you have _a lot_ to tell.


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## Woodduck

ScottK said:


> I do find myself at times mulling over "where the line is?" after which, we have to acknowledge what you just said.
> Tristan > Aroldo.....we're pretty safe. Tristan - Parsifal....as you say, too close. Is there a way of *defining that spot*, where the difference is no longer universal enough for an individual to make a categorical statement?


I'd say there are many ways of defining things that make some works superior, but no "spot" by reference to which sharply bounded and invariable categories of overall excellence can be defined. Evaluating art has to involve both universal and personal values, and the two constantly limit and modify each other.

We certainly don't need to reach as far down as _Aroldo_ to find an operatic achievement less stupendous than _Tristan,_ but the distance anyone will reach needn't guide or bind anyone else's judgment._ Tristan_ is often held to be Wagner's greatest work, it's been called the greatest of all operas by not a few people, and the composer himself remarked that in some respects he would never equal it. I think we can state without prejudice that no opera since opera was new has represented as great a revolution in the art form, or has had as great an impact on music in general. But for all the impressiveness of Wagner's achievement in _Tristan_, and for all the work's power to impress, it's perfectly reasonable to feel that there are better operas out there, and worth exploring the ways in which they might be superior. Of course the value in that is not to rank, but to learn more about what makes opera work.


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## ScottK

Woodduck said:


> *Evaluating art has to involve both universal and personal values, and the two constantly limit and modify each other.*
> 
> I like that alot! (Now lets see if I can continue without creating a mess)
> 
> * I think we can state without prejudice that no opera since opera was new has represented as great a revolution in the art form, or has had as great an impact on music in general.*




Musicologically???......too many words written to waste another, and - if I could, and I can't - I wouldn't want to.

Did he impact the way music-drama is written? Did others follow? It seems to me, strangely, that his great impact was, as you say, on music in general. But did his way of creating music drama have a profound and LASTING impact on the way those that came after wrote music drama?

I want to say that this might be a well travelled question in music history books, and I have no doubt you have spent great time with it, but I have not. My question's challenge comes not because I've pondered and come to a different conclusion. It's that as I take a glance right now - 11:50 PM EST - it doesn't necessarily look like it.


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## Woodduck

ScottK said:


> [/B]
> 
> Musicologically???......too many words written to waste another, and - if I could, and I can't - I wouldn't want to.
> 
> Did he impact the way music-drama is written? Did others follow? It seems to me, strangely, that his great impact was, as you say, on music in general. But did his way of creating music drama have a profound and LASTING impact on the way those that came after wrote music drama?
> 
> I want to say that this might be a well travelled question in music history books, and I have no doubt you have spent great time with it, but I have not. My question's challenge comes not because I've pondered and come to a different conclusion. It's that as I take a glance right now - 11:50 PM EST - it doesn't necessarily look like it.


_Tristan_ is the extreme case of Wagner's more general type of "symphonic opera," which renounces the stop-start structure of "numbers" in favor of a continuous, developing musical texture, the temporal unfolding of which corresponds to the pace of both physical and psychological action and gives music the role of a parallel narrative, a "stream of consciousness" (which was directly influential in the literary phenomenon given that name). Few important operas of the late 19th and early 20th centuries are uninfluenced by Wagner's methods, including the works of (among others) Strauss, Berg, Schoenberg, Bartok, Debussy, Ravel, Charpentier, Dukas, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Verdi in his last several operas, and Puccini and the verismo school. Profound and lasting impact? I would say so.


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## lextune

The really interesting question is how would Wagner rank his 10 mature operas/dramas?


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## ScottK

Woodduck said:


> _Tristan_ is the extreme case of Wagner's more general type of "symphonic opera," which renounces the stop-start structure of "numbers" in favor of a continuous, developing musical texture, the temporal unfolding of which corresponds to the pace of both physical and psychological action and gives music the role of a parallel narrative, a "stream of consciousness" (which was directly influential in the literary phenomenon given that name). Few important operas of the late 19th and early 20th centuries are uninfluenced by Wagner's methods, including the works of (among others) Strauss, Berg, Schoenberg, Bartok, Debussy, Ravel, Charpentier, Dukas, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Verdi in his last several operas, and Puccini and the verismo school. Profound and lasting impact? I would say so.


Yeah I guess that qualifies!

So what was I thinking at 11:50?.....leitmotiv! Through vs numbers, as you've pointed out in other places, is an enormously important part of the journey of music drama and no one altered its course like Wagner. In other, and richer, words...everything you just said!

He must have envisioned something equally pervasive and influential as a result of his work on leitmotiv in drama, no? ( should I be taking this to another thread? I am curious for your answer.)


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## SanAntone

These three stand out

_*Der Ring des Nibelungen*_
*Tristan und Isolde*
_*Parsifal*_

I consider Wagner absolutely the greatest composer of opera; period.


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## hammeredklavier

SanAntone said:


> I consider Wagner absolutely the greatest composer of opera; period.


This was just an year ago (May 1, 2021), and look how much you changed. Can you believe it? (And you got your old avatar back.. How nostalgic.):


SanAntone said:


> I've tried to listen to Wagner's operas, several times I've invested hours in the effort. I managed to get through Das Rheingold, over several days, but couldn't continue with the other operas, although I've watched scenes form all of them. I've bought a number of books on The Ring, I must have at least three different translations of the libretto, including one as a graphic novel.
> 
> I did watch a DVD of Tristan und Isolde and got some enjoyment out of it, and almost watched Parsifal to the end.
> 
> Despite these attempts and good faith efforts I have never gotten over the hump that it is hard work for me. It is a combination of a number of things: the music, which I find heavy and overwrought; the libretti, which I find silly and dramatizations of myths that I don't find compelling or even interesting, especially when they deal with warped sexuality, like brothers falling in love with sisters and singing love duets about it.
> 
> I find Wagner to be excessively long-winded with themes and characters that try my patience, ending up with my opinion that watching/istening to his operas is not a worthwhile way to spend my time.
> 
> But who knows? I still have all those books; I'm retired; I might give it another go down the road.


Look at you.


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## SanAntone

hammeredklavier said:


> This was just an year ago (May 1, 2021), and look how much you changed. Can you believe it? (And you got your old avatar back.. How nostalgic.):
> 
> Look at you.


Yes, after spending a significant amount of time (several different DVDs and recordings) last year with the Ring (I'd already enjoyed Tristan and Parsifal) my appreciation of it has deepened. As my post evidences, I have invested many hours and resources into the work and finally it has paid dividends.

It has been a five decade long but wonderful journey.  I wish the same for everyone who is remotely interested in these great works, but who have struggled with them.

Prior to my awakening to Wagner Mozart had been my favorite, and his operas still rank very high for me. Also Verdi and Puccini. Britten is my next project.


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## Eva Yojimbo

I find it difficult to rank Der Ring's operas individually. While each has its own individuality they also are designed to work as parts of the whole, and much of how they work is dependent upon the motifs/themes that are established and developed over the course of the operas, culminating in the finale of Gotterdammerung. I don't know, eg, to rank Gotterdammerung without consideration of how much my enjoyment of is inextricably bound up in what came before it. 

Despite that caveat, I will try: 

1. Tristan
2. Parsifal
3. Gotterdammerung
4. Die Meistersinger*
5. Walkure
6. Siegfried
7. Lohengrin
8. Der Fliegende Hollander
9. Tannhauser
10. Rheingold

*Wanted to mention I recently gave another listen to Meistersinger, my first in a while, this time on video (the Jurowsky blu-ray) and it finally "clicked" with me. It may be Wagner's most impressive work from a purely musical perspective. Dramatically I found myself really appreciating what is essentially his "ars poetica" and how he finds ways to embed the themes into the musical language itself, and how there's a balance between the craftsmanship, the accessibility, and the artistry. 

I think back when I first encountered it I expected all Wagner to FEEL as deep, weighty, and profound as it was, but Meistersinger has something of a Mozartian nature to it in that its depth is, in large part, embedded in melodies and textures that are light, amiable, fun, entertaining, etc. I'm still not sure a comedy (even one with hints of existential anxiety and a rather complex character in Hans Sachs) can quite justify a 4.5 hour runtime, but there's such a wealth of great music it's impossible to complain too much.


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## Eva Yojimbo

SanAntone said:


> Yes, after spending a significant amount of time (several different DVDs and recordings) last year with the Ring (I'd already enjoyed Tristan and Parsifal) my appreciation of it has deepened. As my post evidences, I have invested many hours and resources into the work and finally it has paid dividends.
> 
> It has been a five decade long but wonderful journey.  I wish the same for everyone who is remotely interested in these great works, but who have struggled with them.
> 
> Prior to my awakening to Wagner Mozart had been my favorite, and his operas still rank very high for me. Also Verdi and Puccini. Britten is my next project.


Wagner and Mozart vie very closely for my favorite opera composer. Tristan is my favorite opera ever, but I rank Don G, Cosi, and Figaro very closely behind: all in my top 5 (joined by Verdi's Otello). Britten is a fine project to have: I'm particularly fond of his Peter Grimes and Billy Budd (I think Britten was at home in dramatic works involving outsiders... and the sea, for some reason). Any plans for exploring R. Strauss's operas? Or perhaps you've already tried them and aren't as much of a fan?


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## SanAntone

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Wagner and Mozart vie very closely for my favorite opera composer. Tristan is my favorite opera ever, but I rank Don G, Cosi, and Figaro very closely behind: all in my top 5 (joined by Verdi's Otello). Britten is a fine project to have: I'm particularly fond of his Peter Grimes and Billy Budd (I think Britten was at home in dramatic works involving outsiders... and the sea, for some reason). Any plans for exploring R. Strauss's operas? Or perhaps you've already tried them and aren't as much of a fan?


I have tried with Strauss a little, _Der Rosenkavalier_, but don't care for his style in general. But I never say never.


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## Eva Yojimbo

SanAntone said:


> I have tried with Strauss a little, _Der Rosenkavalier_, but don't care for his style in general. But I never say never.


You might give Die Frau ohne Schatten a listen if only because it's the most overtly Wagnerian of his operas. Der Rosenkavalier is more like Strauss trying to channel Mozart and the other Strauss, but with his more expressionistic orchestral textures and gestures.


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## MAS

SanAntone said:


> I have tried with Strauss a little, _Der Rosenkavalier_, but don't care for his style in general. But I never say never.


The opera is a mixture of the sublime and the ridiculous.


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## Kundry0013

1. Tristan und Isolde (my favorite opera. I couldn't be without it)
2. Parsifal (sublime music. It sometimes takes the #1 spot depending on my mood)
3. Die Walkure (act 2 is devastating)
4. Gotterdammerung (heavy but rewarding listening. Wagner's most complicated music)
5. Siegfried (This opera's music energizes me. I wish there was a complete recording with Max Lorenz as Siegfried. Windgassen is good though. )
6. Die Meistersinger (It took me a forever to actually sit down and listen to whole thing, but now I love it. It always puts me in a good mood)
7. Das Rheingold (Every scene with Alberich is gold)
8. Lohengrin (Ortrud is the best Disney villain)
9. Tannhauser (It has some great music but the plot is kinda meh)
10. Rienzi (when does the silbergroschen scene take place in Act III? I don't think my recording has it. )
11. Der Fliegende Holländer (I love the overture and Dutchman's Monologue but the rest hasn't grabbed my attention yet)

12. The other two early operas. 

Ps. When taken together as a whole, Der Ring is my #1


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## Trollcannon

Here’s my contribution for what it’s worth:

_Tristan und Isolde_ – By far the best opera I have ever listened to. The sheer visceral energy that this opera exudes leaves me dumbstruck every time I listen to it. At times, I am almost repulsed by the opera for what mind could have conceived of such a thing! Sure it may not be the most _perfect_ opera, but as an artistic monument, an unparalleled expression of musical genius, it is perhaps the greatest achievement of Western music, if not Western culture. And, well, with that said, does mere _perfection_ even matter anymore!? (This may sound a little superlative but, if ever there was an opera to which superlatives ought to be attached, _Tristan_ is it.)
_Parsifal_ – An opera that I would certainly have overlooked were it not for Woodduck’s faithful enthusiasm! It goes without saying that this is an enigmatic opera rich in symbolism so much so that one could be occupied for a lifetime trying to unpack it all. I think it certainly stands well as Wagner’s final testament for it, in many regards, represents the zenith of his artistic abilities. The music is almost trance-like and, at times, I think it goes beyond just music (if that makes any sense at all); it's like I’ve transcended into another dimension. I think this is one of those operas that is an ‘acquired taste’ and will definitely grow on me over time.
_Götterdämmerung_ – A fitting ending to the _Ring_ with all its doom and gloom culminating in complete catastrophe. The ring can never be unforged, as Adam can never un-eat the forbidden fruit: humankind is stripped of its innocence but is granted autonomy, independent of the unworldly doings of the gods, in return. I am always astounded by the Immolation scene – Wagner essentially recapitulates the whole tetralogy in but a few minutes. 
_Tannhäuser_ – The Overture to this opera was the first piece of Wagner my ears ever had the pleasure of listening to; I will always have soft spot for it. I find the (revised) music in the Bacchanale to probably be the most openly erotic that Wagner ever wrote. The Rome music of Act III also evocates the eponymous hero’s struggles very effectively (that is, only when done well!).
_Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ – Unbridled joy and deep humanity. What’s there not to love?
_Die Walküre _– A whirlwind of an opera; each movement is unique and effective. I must confess that I still find Wotan’s monologue in Act II to be almost soporific but am slowly warming to it over time. 
_Das Rheingold_ – If the Immolation scene is the fitting ending that the _Ring_ deserves, then that famous E flat major chord is an equally fitting beginning, from which the whole world seems to emerge.
_Siegfried _– Well-constructed characters to which I can empathise and… forest murmurs, of course!
_Lohengrin _– A well-written opera with some sublime moments.
_ Der fliegende Holländer _– The first of the canonical greats. A truly imaginative opera where the roots of Wagner’s genius are firmly present.


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## Couchie

Trollcannon said:


> Here’s my contribution for what it’s worth:
> 
> _Tristan und Isolde_ – By far the best opera I have ever listened to. The sheer visceral energy that this opera exudes leaves me dumbstruck every time I listen to it. At times, I am almost repulsed by the opera for what mind could have conceived of such a thing! Sure it may not be the most _perfect_ opera, but as an artistic monument, an unparalleled expression of musical genius, it is perhaps the greatest achievement of Western music, if not Western culture. And, well, with that said, does mere _perfection_ even matter anymore!? (This may sound a little superlative but, if ever there was an opera to which superlatives ought to be attached, _Tristan_ is it.)


You're not exaggerating, all who fully invite _Tristan_ into their soul walk away from the experience babbling superlatives like dumbstruck fool. I think Verdi said it best, when he said he "stood in wonder and terror" before _Tristan_. I feel listening to _Tristan_ is in some way dancing with the Devil high on a precipice above an endless abyss. One must exercise caution not to fall in. It contains within it incomparable ecstasies, but as Jung noted, no tree can grow to heaven without putting down roots to hell!


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## Woodduck

Couchie said:


> You're not exaggerating, all who fully invite _Tristan_ into their soul walk away from the experience babbling superlatives like dumbstruck fool. I think Verdi said it best, when he said he "stood in wonder and terror" before _Tristan_. I feel listening to _Tristan_ is in some way dancing with the Devil high on a precipice above an endless abyss. One must exercise caution not to fall in. It contains within it incomparable ecstasies, but as Jung noted, no tree can grow to heaven without putting down roots to hell!


Wagner himself stood in wonder and terror before _Tristan_, and spent the rest of his career backing away from the abyss. From _Meistersinger_ through _Gotterdammerung_ to _Parsifal_, we're warned about the dangers of falling in.


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## OffPitchNeb

I wish I could like Siegfried as many of you do. I find many parts of the score attractive and exciting, but the opera never works for me as a whole listening experience as Rheingold, Walkure or Gotterdammerung. Many I need a better recording or experience it in the theater. But given the current state of Wagnerian singing and Regietheater, the second option is out of the question.


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## Couchie

OffPitchNeb said:


> I wish I could like Siegfried as many of you do. I find many parts of the score attractive and exciting, but the opera never works for me as a whole listening experience as Rheingold, Walkure or Gotterdammerung. Many I need a better recording or experience it in the theater. But given the current state of Wagnerian singing and Regietheater, the second option is out of the question.


The essential problem is that the character Siegfried is based on teutonic ideals, which the modern viewer finds abhorrent. He's meant to be the Übermensch, but we view him as a jerk who went out of his way to slay a dragon who was frankly harmlessly minding his own business. And for what? To secure a wedding gift he offered listlessly to the first woman he ever encountered?


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## ColdGenius

I always thought that Siegfried and Götterdämmerung are about a harm of inbreeding.


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## OffPitchNeb

Couchie said:


> The essential problem is that the character Siegfried is based on teutonic ideals, which the modern viewer finds abhorrent. He's meant to be the Übermensch, but we view him as a jerk who went out of his way to slay a dragon who was frankly harmlessly minding his own business. And for what? To secure a wedding gift he offered listlessly to the first woman he ever encountered?


I am fine with the "Teutonic ideals" and Übermensch stuffs. I only have trouble with the music. As a whole, it never gripped me as the other three did. I can listen to Walkure and Gotterdammerung from the beginning to the end non-stop. For Siegfried, my attention begins to waver in the middle of Act 1, and then I feel like I just need to listen to it in bits and pieces. That's why I said I suspected this opera would work better for me in the theater.


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## Woodduck

OffPitchNeb said:


> I am fine with the "Teutonic ideals" and Übermensch stuffs. I only have trouble with the music. As a whole, it never gripped me as the other three did. I can listen to Walkure and Gotterdammerung from the beginning to the end non-stop. For Siegfried, my attention begins to waver in the middle of Act 1, and then I feel like I just need to listen to it in bits and pieces. That's why I said I suspected this opera would work better for me in the theater.


I tend to agree with you about _Siegfried_. Acts 1 and 2 can feel disjointed, with high and low points; act 3, written after _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger,_ hangs together better. _Siegfried_ also lacks the emotional complexity and depth of _Walkure_ and _Gotterdammerung. _Well-performed, though, it's still full of enchantments.


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## Couchie

OffPitchNeb said:


> I am fine with the "Teutonic ideals" and Übermensch stuffs. I only have trouble with the music. As a whole, it never gripped me as the other three did. I can listen to Walkure and Gotterdammerung from the beginning to the end non-stop. For Siegfried, my attention begins to waver in the middle of Act 1, and then I feel like I just need to listen to it in bits and pieces. That's why I said I suspected this opera would work better for me in the theater.


It does work better in the theatre than on CD. Although at Bayreuth your butt starts getting REALLY sore towards the end of Act 3 and you kind of wish Siegfried and Brunnhilde would just hurry up and get on with it. The Castorf Ring also set the scene in a subway station and from what I recall (I closed my eyes for much of it), spaghetti and crocodiles were also involved. It was booed very aggressively, as you might imagine.


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## Kreisler jr

Siegfried is supposed to be a bit of a "scherzo" and the contemporaries (or at least rather early commenters) realized already the similarity of Siegfried, not with some Übermensch but with the hero of a rather silly fairy tale (Of one who went out to learn to be afraid). It's the only one of the Ring I actually saw on stage and I was positively surprised how well it worked despite the length. Of course, the audience laughed at "Das ist kein Mann?!"; it's really a miscalculation, nobody can take this seriously.


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## Woodduck

Kreisler jr said:


> Siegfried is supposed to be a bit of a "scherzo" and the contemporaries (or at least rather early commenters) realized already the similarity of Siegfried, not with some Übermensch but with the hero of a rather silly fairy tale (Of one who went out to learn to be afraid)...Of course, the audience laughed at "Das ist kein Mann?!"; it's really a miscalculation, nobody can take this seriously.


I wonder how seriously we're supposed to take it. Wagner wasn't a humorless man, and I wouldn't be surprised if he himself laughed at Siegfried's naivete, not only at "Das ist kein Mann!" but at other moments. "Scherzo" does mean "joke," and the opera offers many opportunities for humor. Mime, Alberich, and Fafner are all amusing.


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## Yabetz

Kreisler jr said:


> Siegfried is supposed to be a bit of a "scherzo" and the contemporaries (or at least rather early commenters) realized already the similarity of Siegfried, not with some Übermensch but with the hero of a rather silly fairy tale (Of one who went out to learn to be afraid). It's the only one of the Ring I actually saw on stage and I was positively surprised how well it worked despite the length. Of course, the audience laughed at "Das ist kein Mann?!"; it's really a miscalculation, nobody can take this seriously.


The Ring as some mega-massive four-movement symphonic thing. I had never thought of it that way, but it kind of works.

I'm probably not enough of an expert to rank the Wagner works but from what I've heard:
The Ring (I won't separate the set...although Die Walküre is probably my favorite)
Tristan
Parsifal
Die Meistersinger
Tannhäuser

I haven't listened to the others yet.


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