# Wagner the plagiarist



## meltbanana (Aug 10, 2012)

Go to the 1 hour point in the video where Bernstein is discussing Tristan und Isolde by Wagner. To me this seems like blatant plagiarism on Wagner's part. He obviously knew the music to Berlioz's Romeo et Juliette, and this doesn't seem like a case of a Clementi piano concerto coincidentally containing the same notes as the intro to to The Magic Flute. Bernstein demonstrates that Wagner lifted entire motifs and IDEAS from a work about two star crossed lovers for HIS star crossed lovers.

Would you consider this a case of musical plagiarism? If not, what WOULD consist of musical plagiarism?


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

It was common practice to take ideas from other composers in part of entirely and incorproate into one's own work - from Baroque to today. Nothing unusual at all. So, calm down and sit back and ejoy Tristan for the GREAT WORK that it is, irrepsectve of where some taken ideas might be from.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

You could probably write a 200-page encyclopedia of themes stolen/borrowed/taken by composers from others.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

There is validity to this kind of opinion, it was even lampooned in a caricature I posted elsewhere on the forum. Link to the cartoon & my comments about it in my post here -
http://www.talkclassical.com/17079-great-caricatures-composers.html#post250302


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Of course Berlioz himself was not above borrowing or building upon the motifs of others... as in the famous Dies irae section of the Symphonie fantastique which is essentially a burlesque parody of a Gregorian Chant.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I believe 10 notes qualifies under "fair use".


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## WavesOfParadox (Aug 5, 2012)

I heard a quote somewhere...

"A good composer does not imitate; he steals."
-Igor Stravinsky


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

WavesOfParadox said:


> I heard a quote somewhere...
> 
> "A good composer does not imitate; he steals."
> -Igor Stravinsky


Yeah but Igor also called Orff's 'Carmina Burana' (a rehash of his 'Oedipus Rex') to be "neo-neanderthal." Doesn't necessarily contradict what you say, and maybe these are both just jokes or jibes. But looks like Igor did not like Carl rehashing his stuff, and then making a big hit - in 1936, in the middle of Nazi rule? - to boot.

Strange creatures these composers, they steal, contradict themselves and talk utter ********...a bit like us, maybe?


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Did Wagner intentionally plagiarize to steal from another work or just quote Berlioz? I see nothing wrong with quoting another composer because it is usually a nod or appreciation for another composer's work. Composers do this sort of thing all the time but many times in ways that are less obvious.

Kevin


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## WavesOfParadox (Aug 5, 2012)

Composers are weird and can be hypocrites. I certainly am.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner sent Berlioz a copy of the score with the inscription:

_To the dear and great author of Romeo and Juliet from the grateful author of Tristan und Isolde._

Bülow sent Berlioz a harsh letter after the latter failed to respond.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kevin Pearson said:


> Did Wagner intentionally plagiarize to steal from another work or just quote Berlioz?...


Seriously this one example doesn't really matter that much to me. But its good to know the influence Berlioz must have had on Wagner (whatever it was, I always felt this in terms of the bombast of 'La Damnation de Faust'), not to mention Liszt. It does not negate Wagner's innovations, it only adds to how he got to where he got as an innovator. Not necessarily stealing but it can be seen as a process of building/accretion like a coral reef. Its like a lot of art.



> ...
> I see nothing wrong with quoting another composer because it is usually a nod or appreciation for another composer's work. Composers do this sort of thing all the time but many times in ways that are less obvious.
> 
> ...


Well Bruckner's symphonies have many almost direct quotes of Wagner. Eg. in Sym.#7 is the best known one, of 'Das Rheingold.' Strongly reminiscent at least, and of course it was composed when Wagner died. It was a homage to Wagner who Bruckner called 'The Master' as do a lot of Wagnerites right to this day.



WavesOfParadox said:


> Composers are weird and can be hypocrites. I certainly am.


Just referring to holier than thou attitude, which I take every chance to send up, but seriously I'm on the fence and contradict myself all the time. I think of my opinions on art as changing all the time. So did those of many composers. You compare quotes from them at different times in their lives and it can change, they always change like chameleons. That's fine I think, its a healthy guard against any encroaching dogma.


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## Krisena (Jul 21, 2012)

I think no one should have the right to monopolize on a motif or melody. In my opinion, melodies and the like are things that are part of nature that are simply "found" by the composer, not "invented". Also, if another composer happens to create beautiful music out of a motif, regardless of whether it was used by someone before, everything is forgiven, and everyone gains from it.

tl;dr, Copyright sucks.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

One of my favourite quotes: "Composers shouldn't think too much - it interferes with their plagiarism."


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Wagner seems to me to have borrowed quite a bit from the finale of the Eroica. . .


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

"A good composer does not imitate; he steals."
-Igor Stravinsky

And a good composer steals his quotes from a great artist?

"Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal" (also quoted as "I don't borrow, I steal.")- Pablo Picasso

Or was it T.S. Eliot in his seminal essay, _Tradition and the Individual Talent:_

"Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest."


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

meltbanana said:


> Go to the 1 hour point in the video where Bernstein is discussing Tristan und Isolde by Wagner. To me this seems like blatant plagiarism on Wagner's part. He obviously knew the music to Berlioz's Romeo et Juliette, and this doesn't seem like a case of a Clementi piano concerto coincidentally containing the same notes as the intro to to The Magic Flute. Bernstein demonstrates that Wagner lifted entire motifs and IDEAS from a work about two star crossed lovers for HIS star crossed lovers.
> 
> Would you consider this a case of musical plagiarism? If not, what WOULD consist of musical plagiarism?


Yeah, musical quotation is an older than dirt compositional technique. You can find it almost as far back as we have recorded music (as in notated music). Wagner was obviously inspired by Berlioz (and other composers too). We could make the accusation of copying toward basically anybody if we really wanted to. Its kinda pointless.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Yeah but Igor also called Orff's 'Carmina Burana' (a rehash of his 'Oedipus Rex') to be "neo-neanderthal." Doesn't necessarily contradict what you say, and maybe these are both just jokes or jibes. But looks like Igor did not like Carl rehashing his stuff, and then making a big hit - in 1936, in the middle of Nazi rule? - to boot.
> 
> Strange creatures these composers, they steal, contradict themselves and talk utter ********...a bit like us, maybe?


Igor didn't really have a huge problem with the nazis, or at least not the _right_ problem. He was frustrated that Hitler didn't care much for his music and his music wasn't popular in Germany at that time.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

meltbanana is a great band, all their songs sound like the ring cycle compressed to 1½ minutes (~:


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm familiar with the Bernstein lecture comparing the two works by these composers , but I wouldn't call this "plagiarism". Any composer of stature has a distinctive voice of his own, and of course both Berlioz and Wagner had this quality in spades . Wagner sounds like Wagner, and Berlioz sounds like Berlioz .
And despite the superficial smilarities, Wagner's harmonic language is so vastly different from that of Berlioz that you can't call it plagiarism at all . The harmonies of Tristan are truly radical for that time , and Berlioz never went that far when it comes to chromaticism . 
And when Berlioz heard the prelude to Tristan for hte first time, he was completely baffled by it ! 
I remember a similar false accusation of plagiarism regardng Mahler's 1st symphony . In the scherzo, there is a passage which sounds suuperficially reminiscent of the waltz in the first act of Weber's "Der Freischutz", and this was once used as an excuse to accuse Mahler of being a "derivative" composer , even though nothing could be farther from the truth .


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

superhorn said:


> I'm familiar with the Bernstein lecture comparing the two works by these composers , but I wouldn't call this "plagiarism". Any composer of stature has a distinctive voice of his own, and of course both Berlioz and Wagner had this quality in spades . Wagner sounds like Wagner, and Berlioz sounds like Berlioz .
> And despite the superficial smilarities, Wagner's harmonic language is so vastly different from that of Berlioz that you can't call it plagiarism at all . The harmonies of Tristan are truly radical for that time , and Berlioz never went that far when it comes to chromaticism .
> And when Berlioz heard the prelude to Tristan for hte first time, he was completely baffled by it !
> ....


Yeah well the 'relationship' between Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner in terms of influence is a symbiotic one. It went back and forth. I think someone on this forum told me a while back that Liszt 'invented' what eventually became the 'Tristan chord.' Of course that would pop up all over the place later, eg. in 'The Golliwog's Cake-Walk' by Debussy (from his 'Children's Corner' piano pieces) and also in Berg's only piano sonata. Its hard to disentangle, just like Haydn influenced Mozart, and vice-versa, stuff like that.

But the other thing about Berlioz 'Damnation de Faust' is that the strong psychological aspect looks forward to Wagner's much later operas. It is very dark, esp. in comparison to Gounod's kind of 'Mills and Boon' version that came later. So I think its not only a technical influence, or cross-influence, but also a philosophical one (maybe not as easy to put down in words what it is?).

I can't comment on Berlioz's chromaticism, its over my head but what you say sounds reasonable to me in terms of the different sound worlds they have, and Wagner's operas are indeed a different kettle of fish (his concept of a unified work getting rid of the old 'number' operas format did go further than Berlioz, I know that).

But as for Liszt of course he did get into heavy chromaticism and near atonality but I think this is commonly known on this forum.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Well, it seems like the new member meltbanana has disappeared at least temporarily, still with only one post so far, despite being the OP of this thread. I wonder why.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Well, it seems like the new member meltbanana has disappeared at least temporarily, still with only one post so far, despite being the OP of this thread. I wonder why.


Maybe s/he's satisfied with our discussion?


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Well, it seems like the new member meltbanana has disappeared at least temporarily, still with only one post so far, despite being the OP of this thread. I wonder why.


It's only been one day. Maybe s/he doesn't check this forum very often. I certainly didn't when I first joined.


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## meltbanana (Aug 10, 2012)

What a lot of you have said makes sense. I'm familiar with the idea of musical quotation, and of one composer "paying homage" to another. Like the melody in the finale to Brahms 1st symphony related to the Ode to Joy.

However, when I watched the exposition by Bernstein this just seemed to go BEYOND that. Wagner basically derived several important themes that are integral to the work by taking passages from Berlioz and altering them slightly. And the fact that it was passages from Romeo et Juliette that were then put to use in Tristan und Isolde....

But, I guess the consensus is not plagiarism. What do I know. I'm curious if anything passes as plagiarism besides copying out long passages note for note. It seems composers have a lot of leeway when it comes to this sort of thing.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

meltbanana said:


> ...
> But, I guess the consensus is not plagiarism. What do I know. I'm curious if anything passes as plagiarism besides copying out long passages note for note. It seems composers have a lot of leeway when it comes to this sort of thing.


Wagner is pretty controversial everywhere, and this fourm is no exception. So I'm guessing that if you'd put another composer as an example doing this sort of thing, people might have had another opinion. Or one not so defensive of Wagner at least. There is a core of people on this forum who basically see Wagner as their musical idol. That's not a problem, but since you are new here, you most likely do not know this. There was a period a few months back, 3-6 months ago on this forum, where all I got in my face was if I didn't agree with something, what I call 'the Wagner card' was often drawn. The unsaid thing was if a person does not like him, that listener is a moron, basically. Maybe its putting it too hard, but it makes me bitter.

Now we're over that and 'the Mozart card' seems to be flavour of the month. I doubt it though that there will ever be a 'Berlioz card' though. He's too eccentric and left field for that, for one thing.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

meltbanana said:


> ...But, I guess the consensus is not plagiarism. What do I know. I'm curious if anything passes as plagiarism besides copying out long passages note for note. It seems composers have a lot of leeway when it comes to this sort of thing.


Leeway or common practice? Even my Avatar, the great George Frideric Handel (one of the greatest composers who ever walked this planet, period), took whole themes and movements from his own works and other contemporary composers of his. I don't have a problem with it. The music still pleases me. "_He takes another man's pebbles and polishes them into diamonds"_, with regards to Handel's borrowings/plagiarism/ as described by one of Handel's admirers.

I don't have a probem digesting the beautiful music. Others do.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm listening to Berlioz's Dramatic Symphony right now. So many of its aspects remind me of Tristan, from the orchestration to the melodic resonances throughout. The tenor and ambiance are identical, Wagner just did it way better. It's essentially an embryo of Tristan.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

:scold: I want all these 'plagiarist' threads to be locked down.. NOW! :scold:


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

I agree I like this thread very much. Wagner stole from Berlioz he hated the French I hate his music. Just listen at 2:05 in this video this is Tristan in a nutshell. Who needs Wagner just listen to Berlioz!!!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I found his wierd grunting quite disturbing


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Resurrexit said:


> I agree I like this thread very much. Wagner stole from Berlioz he hated the French I hate his music. Just listen at 2:05 in this video this is Tristan in a nutshell. Who needs Wagner just listen to Berlioz!!!


I'm sorry, Wagner may have been influenced by the Berlioz but I would say that it was not plagiarism.

This is plagiarism. Starts at 2:24.






Starts at :41


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Call it what you wish, but just listen to the beginning of these two clips:











All Wagner's best ideas for Tristan come directly from Berlioz!! He could have at least given him dual writing credits. :lol:


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Interestingly , when Berlioz first heaard the Tristan prelude in concert , he was utterly baffled by it .
There may be superficial melodic resemblences , but Wagner'smusic is still vastly different .


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I find it charming rather than alarming. Nothing wrong with borrowing a motif or two imo. 

Imitation is the highest form of flattery!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner's _Tristan_ and Berlioz's _Romeo_ share a few notes here and there. So what? You'll find a leitmotiv from Wagner's _Parsifal_ in Verdi's _Otello_. So what? If you want some authentic Wagnerian plagiarism, compare the "Rhine" motiv from the _Ring_ with Mendelssohn's _Die Schoene Melusine_ overture. Now there's an outright steal! But what Wagner did with a simple arpeggio, Mendelssohn couldn't have dreamed of on a midsummer night.

Isn't this a fun game to play?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

.................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> ... not to mention, Wagner's idea for a cheerful little Mendelssohnian wedding march!... I'm not usually bothered by a little theft between composers, but I thought it was tacky in the extreme for Wagner to attack Mendelssohn for being a Jew, on one hand, and then robbing him blind as a composer, on the other-the cheerful spirit that was characteristic of Mendelssohn. Wagner might never have had a source for his ideas without modeling some of his own after a composer whose reputation he was trying to destroy (along with Meyerbeer), and yet that was something he would probably never admit to except in his dreams. That's pretty low even for Wagner. I like him but I don't love him and, evidently, he had no idea that he might be permanently tainting his legacy because of all the people he obviously used and exploited to get himself to the top. Sorry, but it's even rather disgusting, in a way. Then later, of course, he ends up being exploited himself by a lunatic German dictator who set Europe on fire and looked like Charlie Chapin. Wagner's direct or indirect plagiarism wasn't his finest hour in building the empire of his musical Valhalla.


What are you talking about? Wagner "robbing Mendelssohn blind"? There's one leitmotif in the _Ring,_ which I mention in post #36, that Wagner probably found in Mendelssohn's "Fair Melusine" overture. Mendelssohn does essentially nothing with it, while Wagner spins it out into a virtual tone poem of nature's primal power. He builds the entire prelude to _Das Rheingold_ on it, he casts it darkly in the minor when the earth goddess Erda appears, he rolls it forth in majesty as Siegfried journeys down the Rhine, he turns it upside down to express the mortality of the gods and the end of all things... All Mendelssohn provided was a little arpeggio! Had he heard what could be done with it he would have thanked Wagner on his knees.

I don't know what "cheerful little wedding march" you think Wagner took from Mendelssohn. In fact there isn't one. The gentle wedding procession in _Lohengrin_ has no relation to the celebratory march in _A Midsummer Night's Dream._ Their only connection is that they're both used at weddings.

It looks to me as if resentment of Wagner's less attractive personal traits has led you to misunderstand and misrepresent his artistic achievements. Wagner borrowed no more from other music than most composers, and less than many - and what he did borrow he transformed into something unprecedented and entirely his own, like any first-rate genius. Your statement, "Wagner might never have had a source for his ideas without modeling some of his own after a composer whose reputation he was trying to destroy (along with Meyerbeer)" is just crackers! Wagner learned things from these and other composers. He was not interested in "plagiarizing" their music - which in the case of Meyerbeer he didn't for the most part like - but in creating music such as they could never have imagined. (I would also suggest that his rather bitter and disparaging comments about Meyerbeer, and his off-and-on attitude toward Mendelssohn - whom he acknowledged as a fine composer - was not a calculated attempt to destroy their reputations. But that's not what concerns me here.)

It's been fashionable to spit on Wagner since he was alive and turning the musical world on its ear. Thanks partly to his own difficult personality, partly to his extraordinary artistic vision, and partly to the unfortunate historical associations to which you allude, no composer has remained the object of more popular misunderstanding and prejudice. Being a "plagiarist" isn't the worst thing he's been accused of, but we might as well clear the matter up.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> What are you talking about? Wagner "robbing Mendelssohn blind"? There's one leitmotif in the _Ring,_ which I mention in post #36, that Wagner probably found in Mendelssohn's "Fair Melusine" overture. Mendelssohn does essentially nothing with it, while Wagner spins it out into a virtual tone poem of nature's primal power. He builds the entire prelude to _Das Rheingold_ on it, he casts it darkly in the minor when the earth goddess Erda appears, he rolls it forth in majesty as Siegfried journeys down the Rhine, he turns it upside down to express the mortality of the gods and the end of all things... All Mendelssohn provided was a little arpeggio! Had he heard what could be done with it he would have thanked Wagner on his knees.
> 
> I don't know what "cheerful little wedding march" you think Wagner took from Mendelssohn. In fact there isn't one. The gentle wedding procession in _Lohengrin_ has no relation to the celebratory march in _A Midsummer Night's Dream._ Their only connection is that they're both used at weddings.
> 
> ...


Woodduck, I'm sorry you saw that post. I had withdrawn it but obviously not in time. I felt it was a downer and didn't feel right after posting it. Apologies to you and all the faithful Wagnerians.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Woodduck, I'm sorry you saw that post. I had withdrawn it but obviously not in time. I felt it was a downer and I didn't feel right after posting it. Apologies to you and all the faithful Wagnerians.


Hey, my feelings aren't hurt. But old Richard might appreciate a little contrition. :angel:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

meltbanana said:


> Would you consider this a case of musical plagiarism?


there was no such notion as 'plagiarism' at the time and no copyright either.

it was one pool of ideas everyone is welcome to borrow from.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> there was no such notion as 'plagiarism' at the time and no copyright either.
> 
> it was one pool of ideas everyone is welcome to borrow from.


Notwithstanding this, pieces that sounds similar to other works are compromised.

Having listened to Berlioz's Love Theme I don't see any copying.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Of course Wagner borrowed from others - the Tristan chord was borrowed from his father-in-law. But then every composer borrows.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Of course Wagner borrowed from others - the Tristan chord was borrowed from his father-in-law.


Didn't Mozart, Beethoven and other earlier composers employ the Tristan chord? What was unique was how Wagner used it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Didn't Mozart, Beethoven and other earlier composers employ the Tristan chord? What was unique was how Wagner used it.


Exactly. Wagner introduces it without any preparation that would "explain" it; its harmonic function emerges only in its continuation. Most music up to then had begun by establishing a key, if not with the tonic chord then at least with its dominant, subdominant, or relative minor. Introducing a dissonance without preparation at the very beginning of a piece was daring though not unknown, but using this particular dissonance to start out was unprecedented. The so-called "half-diminished" chord had been used by plenty of composers in moments of harmonic flux, but it's so ambiguous - capable of resolving in several different ways - that when we hear it out of context we have no way of guessing which way the music will proceed. With _Tristan_ the chord, in its several inversions, became virtually a signature for Wagner; in all his subsequent operas it plays a prominent role in creating dramatic tension and moods of uncertainty, mystery, foreboding, and so on.

Because of its harmonically unprepared position at the beginning of the prelude to _Tristan,_ the Tristan chord still creates dissension among analysts; I believe there are five well-known "explanations" of what it's doing, in addition to the position that it can't be analyzed at all.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Exactly. Wagner introduces it without any preparation that would "explain" it; its harmonic function emerges only in its continuation. Most music up to then had begun by establishing a key, if not with the tonic chord then at least with its dominant, subdominant, or relative minor. Introducing a dissonance without preparation at the very beginning of a piece was daring though not unknown, but using this particular dissonance to start out was unprecedented. The so-called "half-diminished" chord had been used by plenty of composers in moments of harmonic flux, but it's so ambiguous - capable of resolving in several different ways - that when we hear it out of context we have no way of guessing which way the music will proceed. With _Tristan_ the chord, in its several inversions, became virtually a signature for Wagner; in all his subsequent operas it plays a prominent role in creating dramatic tension and moods of uncertainty, mystery, foreboding, and so on.
> 
> Because of its harmonically unprepared position at the beginning of the prelude to _Tristan,_ *the Tristan chord still creates dissension among analysts;* I believe there are five well-known "explanations" of what it's doing, in addition to the position that *it can't be analyzed at all*.


That's because Wagner's use of the half-diminished and its resolution to a dominant seventh *is not harmonic, but contrapuntal* in nature. It's an example of how chromaticism starts to achieve an impressive degree of autonomy. Loosening itself from functional tonality, it becomes an independent force with its own distinctive logic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You complain about people derailing _your_ threads? This is not the music theory forum. You've already posted these exact words (which aren't even all yours) here:

https://www.talkclassical.com/59971-decoding-beethoven-4.html#post1601431

If anyone's interested in debating the nature of Wagner's harmony, that's the forum for it. The Tristan chord comes up here only because someone suggested that Wagner may have stolen it from someone else and I had to explain that the novelty was not in the chord but in its use. But in passing I have to say that your statement that "Wagner's use of the half-diminished and its resolution to a dominant seventh is not harmonic" is a misuse of language and will enlighten nobody.


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## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

So he has been finally sussed


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> That's because Wagner's use of the half-diminished and its resolution to a dominant seventh *is not harmonic, but contrapuntal* in nature. It's an example of how chromaticism starts to achieve an impressive degree of autonomy. Loosening itself from functional tonality, it becomes an independent force with its own distinctive logic.


It would help if examples in sound would be presented so people could hear it for themselves. Sometimes people analyze chords and no one can tell if they're making it up or not. It helps if the analysis is illustrated at the piano or some other example can be found. I think sometimes people just make something up with regard to harmony in music theory, not necessarily in this case, but sometimes. Unless something is actually played at the piano, no one knows if the analysis might apply, then it can end in another argument. People can often tell by sound what words cannot exactly convey. Best wishes to all.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> You complain about people derailing _your_ threads? This is not the music theory forum. You've already posted these exact words...
> If anyone's interested in debating the nature of Wagner's harmony, that's the forum for it. The Tristan chord comes up here only because someone suggested that Wagner may have stolen it from someone else and I had to explain that the novelty was not in the chord but in its use. But in passing I have to say that your statement that "Wagner's use of the half-diminished and its resolution to a dominant seventh is not harmonic" is a misuse of language and will enlighten nobody.


You call that short post of mine derailing a thread? and that I have no right to make a statement about music theory in response to one that you just made? I'm afraid I disagree with your attitude.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> It would help if examples in sound would be presented so people could hear it for themselves. Sometimes people analyze chords and no one can tell if they're making it up or not. It helps if the analysis is illustrated at the piano or some other example can be found. I think sometimes people just make something up with regard to harmony in music theory, not necessarily in this case, but sometimes. Unless something is actually played at the piano, no one knows if the analysis might apply, then it can end in another argument. People can often tell by sound what words may not exactly convey. Best wishes to all.


You must be referring to this posting, not mine:
_
Wagner introduces it without any preparation that would "explain" it; its harmonic function emerges only in its continuation. Most music up to then had begun by establishing a key, if not with the tonic chord then at least with its dominant, subdominant, or relative minor. Introducing a dissonance without preparation at the very beginning of a piece was daring though not unknown, but using this particular dissonance to start out was unprecedented. The so-called "half-diminished" chord had been used by plenty of composers in moments of harmonic flux, but it's so ambiguous - capable of resolving in several different ways - that when we hear it out of context we have no way of guessing which way the music will proceed. With __Tristan the chord, in its several inversions, became virtually a signature for Wagner; in all his subsequent operas it plays a prominent role in creating dramatic tension and moods of uncertainty, mystery, foreboding, and so on.

Because of its harmonically unprepared position at the beginning of the prelude to Tristan, __the Tristan chord still creates dissension among analysts; I believe there are five well-known "explanations" of what it's doing, in addition to the position that it can't be analyzed at all.
_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> You call that short post of mine derailing a thread? and that I have no right to make a statement about music theory in response to one that you just made? I'm afraid I disagree with your attitude.


On how many threads do we have to debate this subject? And must you go back three weeks to find something to argue about?

Someone suggested that the "Tristan chord" was an example of plagiarism. All I did was explain that...

Never mind.


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## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

Not a plagiarism accusation, but seems a not entirely inappropriate thread. I heard Schubert's Death and the Maiden quartet recently on the radio and part of the scherzo really reminded me of the Nibelungen theme from the Ring. Anyone else find the same?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Kollwitz said:


> Not a plagiarism accusation, but seems a not entirely inappropriate thread. I heard Schubert's Death and the Maiden quartet recently on the radio and part of the scherzo really reminded me of the Nibelungen theme from the Ring. Anyone else find the same?


I noticed that the first time I heard the Schubert. Might be a steal, might not. In any case Schubert would be surprised to see dwarves hammering on anvils to his quartet.


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## solutio (2 mo ago)

The Holy Grail Theme in Lohengrin is based on a ingenous accord which sets up the whole romantic atmosphere of these great opera. Check the beginning of the soprano part in the "Et incarnatus est" of Mozarts C minor mass! Clash of epochs...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm convinced that Wagner "sampled" the beginning of Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony for his intro to Act II of Tannhäuser ("Dich, teurer Halle").


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Lifting a melodic fragment is not plagiarism. Even under modern copyright law, that would constitute fair use. This is plagiarism:


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