# in your hymnal



## david johnson

The hymnal in current use at our church has some arrangements using the music of Haydn. Mozart, and Bach.
Clearly though, nobody knows that "My Jesus, As Thou Will" is the horn quartet from Der Frieschutz 
Found any treasures in your hymn books?


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## Ingélou

There are lots of gorgeous tunes in the school hymnal I grew up with. The two I'm mentioning here I had always thought were written by major composers, but apparently not.

I love Charles Wesley's words '*Lo, He comes with clouds descending*' - oddly for one of the founders of Methodism, they're very 'Catholic'!  - and I love the usual tune, '*Helmsley*'. It is described as 'an English melody of the 18th century', but it definitely sounds like 'pukka art music'.

I also love Martin Luther's hymn, *Ein' Feste Burg*. The older translation always gives me goose-flesh:

*The ancient prince of Hell
Hath risen with purpose fell;
Strong mail of craft and power
He weareth in this hour.
On earth is not his fellow.*

Taggart & I always thought that the tune was written by Bach, but apparently it was Martin Luther himself, though possibly based on an earlier battle-hymn against the Ottomans.

I'll always remember, before I became a Catholic, I was a student volunteer at a Cheshire Home (for the disabled & chronically ill) and there were a lot of young White Fathers, a Catholic missionary order, also working as nurses. One young German priest was musical and we student nurses were getting him to sing & play the piano for us one evening, but there was a problem in that he didn't know the same songs as us. I cast around for any German songs that I knew, and remembered Ein' Feste Burg.

'Do you know Martin Luther's hymn?' I asked brightly.
He replied, 'Certainly *not*!' :lol:


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## Winterreisender

Once I remember the opening hymn for Wagner's Meistersinger ("Da zu dir der Heiland kam") came up as a hymn with the words "Holy ghost, we offer here."


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## Ukko

Interesting thread; I have heard several hymns that seemed unexplainably familiar (I'm not a churchgoer), but am notably weak in music identification. So my contribution here is to offer a link to pronunciation. It's a case of the silent 'n' speaking up - I was wondering.

http://www.forvo.com/word/hymnal/


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## Mahlerian

Ingenue said:


> Taggart & I always thought that the tune was written by Bach, but apparently it was Martin Luther himself, though possibly based on an earlier battle-hymn against the Ottomans.


Bach did a series of variations on a very similar hymn, also by Luther.


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## Ingélou

Mahlerian, thanks, these variations are fab!

The obvious 'Classical Music' hymn is 'I vow to thee my country' by *Sir Cecil Spring-Rice* (oh how we schoolgirls giggled!) to music from *Holst's Jupiter*. It was popular with us partly for the lovely tune & partly for the words, though even in those days, our RE teacher slated it. It gets panned today even more often, for its words:

'I vow to thee my country, *all earthly things above,*
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
*The love that asks no questions - the love that stands the test - 
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best*.'

I do think all the flak is a bit unfair. On *Star Trek*, the captain regularly threatens to let the aliens destroy him & his entire crew, rather than get access to bomb earth or whatever, and 'asking no questions' really only means _readily_, with _military discipline_ etc. And the second stanza of the hymn talks of the heavenly country which takes precedence over all earthly loyalties and which gains adherents year by year from the human world.

I still like the tune, but as Jupiter is 'the bringer of jollity' and the rest of Holst's piece is blithe and playful, the hymn somewhat spoils 'Jupiter' for me now - wrong associations.


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## Ingélou

Hilltroll72 said:


> Interesting thread; I have heard several hymns that seemed unexplainably familiar (I'm not a churchgoer), but am notably weak in music identification. So my contribution here is to offer a link to pronunciation. It's a case of the silent 'n' speaking up - I was wondering.
> 
> http://www.forvo.com/word/hymnal/


Good point, Hilltroll. It's also an answer to would-be spelling reformers. Those who'd write 'hym' for hymn would lose the connection with hym*n*al.


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## Winterreisender

In addition, I enjoy Vaughan Williams' contributions to the English Hymnal, e.g. "For All the Saints." Although really the whole book is his doing.

I also find it funny when Haydn's tune for the German national anthem comes up with the text "Praise the Lord, Ye Heavens Adore Him."


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## Taggart

Even more interesting is Vaughan William's tune Monk's Gate for "To be a pilgrim". It is name after Monk's Gate in Sussex where Vaughan Williams heard the folk song whose tune he adapted to fit it. Vaughan Williams's tune was adopted for the first edition of the English Hymnal in 1906. Three years later he heard the same tune being used by Ellen Powell, near Weobley, Herefordshire.

Here are versions of To be a Pilgrim and The Blacksmith both sung by Maddy Prior.


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## Celloman

For some years now, I have been fond of the "King's Weston" hymn tune. One of my school assignments was to arrange a hymn tune, and I picked this one and have enjoyed it ever since. It has a unique, folksy flavor all of its own. Unfortunately, we are not familiar with that hymn here in the States, so I have never had the opportunity to sing it in a congregational setting.


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## Rehydration

I adore the "Wondrous Love" tune, and even wrote a composition based on it. 
Here is the manuscript for the "ponderable", or so I named it:







The Trinity Hymnal is my church's hymnal, and it has a lot of great ones, like the Gustav Holst "Jupiter" hymn, Fairest Lord Jesus (performing that one at church with my sister sometime), and O Worship the King. I'm too lazy to get my copy from the basement right now, though, so I can't cite these tunes.


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## Mahlerian

Winterreisender said:


> Once I remember the opening hymn for Wagner's Meistersinger ("Da zu dir der Heiland kam") came up as a hymn with the words "Holy ghost, we offer here."


There's a hymn based on the overture to Weber's Der Freischütz as well, although I don't remember the name.


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## Ingélou

One fairly-recent arrival on the hymn scene (with us, anyway) is the chorus from Handel's *Judas Maccabaeus*, to which are sung the words 'Thine be the glory, risen conquering Son...'

At our church, this is usually an exit hymn after an 'important' Mass, say, Easter Sunday. And it really stirs the blood - the soul too, I hope!


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## Taggart

Just been looking at a battered old copy of Sankey's "Sacred Songs and Solos with Standard Hymns" - some gems - I know that my Redeemer lives - Handel; God Moves in a Mysterious Way - Tallis; Am I a Soldier of the Cross - Purcell. Plus there are a number of hymns that have passed (with alternative words) into folk tradition like The Sweet by and By (Pie in the Sky) or My God I have Found (Alleluia I'm a bum).

Interesting thought. There seems to be a greater divide between hymnals in terms of "standard" hymns and what I think of as "ditties" (*not *Taize though). Whereas Sankey could have the classic tunes as well as the belters like Amazing Grace, Shall we Gather at the River and so forth, we now seem to have a) dropped the standards (or if they are included the words are mangled) and b) got a lot more odd stuff.

Another difference is in the use of Latin. We regularly get K. 618 (Ave Verum Corpus) as a choir piece and use a lot of plainchant. Other churches locally don't. I remember being taught the Mozart Gloria at school but this sort of music is now reserved to only a few centres of excellence.


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## hreichgott

Ingenue said:


> Taggart & I always thought that the tune was written by Bach, but apparently it was Martin Luther himself, though possibly based on an earlier battle-hymn against the Ottomans.


I have heard that "Ein feste Burg" is based on a drinking song. Or maybe that is urban legend...



Ingenue said:


> 'I vow to thee my country'


We have these more Calvinist words in the Presbyterian Hymnal supplement -- so that we can still enjoy that gorgeous tune 

O God beyond all praising,
we worship you today
and sing the love amazing
that songs cannot repay;
for we can only wonder
at every gift you send,
at blessings without number
and mercies without end:
we lift our hearts before you
and wait upon your word,
we honor and adore you,
our great and mighty Lord.

Then hear, O gracious Savior,
accept the love we bring,
that we who know your favor
may serve you as our king;
and whether our tomorrows
be filled with good or ill,
we'll triumph through our sorrows
and rise to bless you still:
to marvel at your beauty
and glory in your ways,
and make a joyful duty
our sacrifice of praise.


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## drpraetorus

Although some classical melodies work well as hymns, one that to me emphatically doe not work, at least with the words written for it, is Beethovens Ode to Joy. It just sounds cheesy with the "Joyful, Joyful" words. My personal preference for hymns are the German chorals and Welsh songs. My favorite is the Welsh melody "Hyfrydol" [HUV-rid-ahl is a close pronunciation. And don't forget to roll that R] It is used by many churches with different words, but the most common English words are "Love divine, all loves excelling". 



Another melody that is used a lot is from the work "The Last Hope" by Louis Moreau Gottschalk.


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## hreichgott

^ Also with Ode to Joy you have the awkward moment at the beginning of the last line where half the congregation comes in before the beat and half on the beat.


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## Ukko

^ The combination of singing, accompaniment, and sentiments expressed makes the Ode To Joy the finest hymn I have ever heard.


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## Lunasong

We have a most lovely hymn which is sung to the tune of _Finlandia._ The lyrics are credited to Lloyd Stone and Georgia Harkness.

_This is my song, O God of all the nations,
A song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;
but other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine.
But other lands have sunlight too, and clover
and skies are ev'rywhere as blue as mine.
So hear my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for their land and for mine.

This is my prayer, O God of all earth's kingdoms,
your kingdom come; on earth your will be done.
O God, be lifted up till all shall serve you,
and hearts united learn to live as one.
So hear my prayer, O God of all the nations;
myself I give you; let your will be done._

I always look at the hymn tune, meter, and text/music source when singing. Our hymnal has a listing of "Sources of Service Music and Hymns" in the back so it's very easy to where they came from. A quick glance reveals Bach is credited with eight, Beethoven one (_Joy_ of course), Handel one, J Haydn one, M Haydn one, Holst three, Ireland two, Mendelssohn one, Nielsen one, Palestrina one, Purcell one, Schubert three, Schumann one, Sibelius two, Vaughn Williams ELEVEN. Could be more because this print is very small and I may not recognize all composers at name sight (I know John Ireland now only because I'm currently reading a bio of B. Britten).

Of note to Huilin is that eight are based on "Finnish folk tune."


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## Taggart

drpraetorus said:


> My personal preference for hymns are the German chorals and Welsh songs. My favorite is the Welsh melody "Hyfrydol" [HUV-rid-ahl is a close pronunciation. And don't forget to roll that R] It is used by many churches with different words,


A real Welsh belter is Ton Y Botel or Ebenezer usually sung with "Once to Every Man and Nation"


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## hreichgott

Hilltroll72 said:


> ^ The combination of singing, accompaniment, and sentiments expressed makes the Ode To Joy the finest hymn I have ever heard.


But surely you mean the Ode to Joy as sung during a performance of the actual Beethoven Ninth Symphony?


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## Ukko

hreichgott said:


> But surely you mean the Ode to Joy as sung during a performance of the actual Beethoven Ninth Symphony?


Absolutely. I am not a church-goer, and most hymns' lyrics blunt my enjoyment of the music. Amazing Grace is another exception.


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## drpraetorus

Taggart said:


> A real Welsh belter is Ton Y Botel or Ebenezer usually sung with "Once to Every Man and Nation"


I've never heard that. It is... well. I'm at a loss for words it is so powerful. That is definitely one I will be looking up and using. Diolch yn fawr iawn, iawn.


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## Lunasong

Why did this topic get moved? Is it because its not "potentially contentious?" It's quickly going to sink out of sight in the Classical Music forum, whilst we could discuss it for days in our new forum. I thought it was appropriate there.


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## Taggart

Lunasong said:


> Why did this topic get moved? Is it because its not "potentially contentious?" It's quickly going to sink out of sight in the Classical Music forum, whilst we could discuss it for days in our new forum. I thought it was appropriate there.


Yup that was mentioned - it's music not religion. Some thoughts - a) subscribe b) post or c) bookmark. That way you know where it is and can return to it on a regular basis. Posting is probably the best option because that way it stays up on the first page.


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## Lunasong

The header says, Discussion of religious topics in relation to classical music. Religious hymns adapted from classical music fits. I did see the mod's comment in the "Announcements" thread, so I'll throw in something contentious if I can think of it...



hreichgott said:


> Also with Ode to Joy you have the awkward moment at the beginning of the last line where half the congregation comes in before the beat and half on the beat.


Every hymnal I have (4) leaves this beat out. Thus, the piece has been "dumb-downed" for congregational singing. Contentious!


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## Guest

In my church (LDS/Mormon) we have a few hymns set to works of Classical composers.

"Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" is set to the same Haydn melody as the German national anthem, from the Emperor Quartet.

"A Mighty Fortress is Our God" although the music is originally attributed to Luther.

"Be Still, My Soul" is set to Sibelius' Finlandia

In our Children's Songbook, the song "I Pledge Myself to Love the Right" is set to Mozart's Ein Maedchen oder Weibchen from the Magic Flute. 

"O Savior, Thou Who Wearest a Crown" is set to Bach's O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden from the St. Matthew Passion.

There are several hymns set to Mendelssohn's works:
"Cast Thy Burden Upon the Lord"
"O God, The Eternal Father"
"Hark, the Herald Angels Sing"

"How Wondrous and Great" from Joseph Martin Kraus

Those are the ones I have found for now.


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## Taggart

We usually use Robert Bridges translation of the last part of Salve mundi salutare as "Oh Sacred Head Sore Wounded". The whole piece has a fascinating history. Bach basically arranged a German Lutheran hymn as part of his St Matthew Passion and it is that version that is now generally used.


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## science

Rehydration said:


> I adore the "Wondrous Love" tune, and even wrote a composition based on it.
> Here is the manuscript for the "ponderable", or so I named it:
> View attachment 25454
> 
> The Trinity Hymnal is my church's hymnal, and it has a lot of great ones, like the Gustav Holst "Jupiter" hymn, Fairest Lord Jesus (performing that one at church with my sister sometime), and O Worship the King. I'm too lazy to get my copy from the basement right now, though, so I can't cite these tunes.


I'm not sure this will work... and I'm even less sure that you'll like it, but my lil' bro produced it:

Edit: This one works: http://marshill.bandcamp.com/track/what-wondrous-love-is-this-2


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## mstar

At my church, all of the music is sung by voice - there are no instruments! The whole church sings, and we have a small "leading" choir (which I'm a part of) that helps the lay to do the harmonies. It's actually very beautiful!


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## Guest

We usually only have piano or organ accompaniment.


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## Taggart

mstar said:


> At my church, all of the music is sung by voice - there are no instruments! The whole church sings, and we have a small "leading" choir (which I'm a part of) that helps the lay to do the harmonies. It's actually very beautiful!


Very old tradition. Try this example of call and response from Lewis:


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## ccravens

mstar said:


> At my church, all of the music is sung by voice - there are no instruments! The whole church sings, and we have a small "leading" choir (which I'm a part of) that helps the lay to do the harmonies. It's actually very beautiful!


Sounds awesome.

I love hearing the Psalms sung.


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## rborganist

The tune "Canonbury" by Robert Schumann is one of my favorite gems; when I was a boy I went to a camp called Alpine which was on top of Lookout Mountain, and we sang our camp song to what turned out to be that tune. I also consider "St. Magnus" by Jeremiah Clarke to be a gem which should be sung more often. The tune "Dundee" has somewhat comical connotations for me, because my late father-in-law spent some time in Scotland, and they considered the words of the Psalms too sacred to be sung over and over as one would at choir rehearsal, so they gave them secular words for rehearsal purposes, and one, which was sung to "Dundee" was called "The Presbyterian Cat." It is a very nice tune and doesn't require a wide range. I also love "Grand Isle" ("I Sing a Song of the Saints of God"), but we tend to sing it only on or near all Saints Day.


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