# A new Sibelius cycle to add to the mix



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Decca has released a new cycle by the Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Klaus Mäkelä. It is available at a surprisingly inexpensive price on Presto Classical (I purchased the CD-quality FLAC for a mere $13). It can be sampled on YouTube using this playlist.









My observations:

I prefer hot-blooded Sibelius with strong percussion. This set mostly fits the bill. The sound is predictably excellent for modern Decca, and does a good job delivering a vibrating, bassy foundation to the tracks. If there is a standout portion of the orchestra, I would say it's the woodwinds - they come through with great detail and agility here. Tempo overall is middle of the road. There are some really nice crescendos, especially in the 5th and the 7th.

The 4th in this set is probably the best I've heard, with a real sense of forward momentum and narration, something that often disappears in a miasma of ethereal sound.

As a whole cycle, it's somewhere between the chilly, remote, almost bland Rattle/BPO and the effulgent, bombastic Karajan/BPO on EMI. I think it compares most closely to the Paavo Berglund/Helsinki set on Warner, but with better, more detailed sound, and stronger percussion. As a complete cycle, I give it a strong recommendation. It's not deficient in any symphony, very strong in the challenging 4th, and has great sound.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Decca has released a new cycle by the Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Klaus Mäkelä. It is available at a surprisingly inexpensive price on Presto Classical (I purchased the CD-quality FLAC for a mere $13). It can be sampled on YouTube using this playlist.
> 
> View attachment 165515
> 
> ...


That set is on my next month's to buy list, following a good review in this month's Gramophone - sadly, I can't resist Sibelius cycles!


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Just sampled the 4th. The recording is great, with each instrument so clear.

Oddly, I got halfway through the 4th's 4th movement before realsiing that the "glocks" were almost absent. I prefr it that way.

I think I might buy the set.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

No! Not another Sibelius set. I, too, collect them too often and despite being fully pleased with several older sets I'll get news ones. At least I feel like I'm doing my part to keep record companies in business!

After the disappointing one on RCA from Paavo Jarvi and the Paris orchestra, I'll look forward to this. And great sound is always a plus.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

So far I have listened to (most of) the 3rd & 6th. I agree that it is very well recorded.

#3 - ok, not exceptional but maybe worth a second listen.
#6 - awful, totally dragged out. I listened to all of the 1st movement, started on the 2nd but couldn't continue, sampled each of the other movements and found no difference.

More tonight...


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I'm a huge Sibelius fan, but this set that basically came out-of-nowhere isn't exactly drawing me into it's vortex _yet_. One of the reasons is I don't like the idea of a complete cycle being released right out out of the gate. Anyway, it's not tempting me at the moment and considering I own symphony cycles from Bernstein, Karajan, Segerstam, Blomstedt, Barbirolli, Vänskä, Berglund et. al., it is going to be incredibly difficult to sway a cynical Sibelian like me.  Also, the reviews haven't been exactly all 5-stars either with several of the ones I've read complaining about dragging tempi and general inconsistency.


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

I admit to a slight aversion to Mäkelä, because of the celebrity image making going on around him. He came to Reykjavik with the RCO and the marketing looked like something for a superhero movie.

I'll attach the main image from the concert poster and programme so you see what I mean. Great concert, though.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

There is something about a record cover like that: no way am I ever going to buy this! I have enough great Sibelius recordings to get by without Mäkelä´s face on my shelves.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Helgi said:


> I admit to a slight aversion to Mäkelä, because of the celebrity image making going on around him. He came to Reykjavik with the RCO and the marketing looked like something for a superhero movie.
> 
> I'll attach the main image from the concert poster and programme so you see what I mean. Great concert, though.
> 
> View attachment 165537


What a horrible concert poster. Is he Clark Kent? Is he Superman? Only _he_ knows the truth.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> There is something about a record cover like that: no way am I ever going to buy this! I have enough great Sibelius recordings to get by without Mäkelä´s face on my shelves.


Yeah, I won't be falling prey to marketing hype this time around. They got me before, but they won't get me again.


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

Neo Romanza said:


> What a horrible concert poster. Is he Clark Kent? Is he Superman? Only _he_ knows the truth.


The Concergewhat? I'm paying to see the wunderkind superstar


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Yet another young Finnish conductor, haven't we had enough already? Maybe it's a case of Mäkelä saying "Anything you [Salonen, Rouvali et.al.] can do, I can do better!" :lol:


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Helgi said:


> I admit to a slight aversion to Mäkelä, because of the celebrity image making going on around him. He came to Reykjavik with the RCO and the marketing looked like something for a superhero movie.
> 
> I'll attach the main image from the concert poster and programme so you see what I mean. Great concert, though.
> 
> View attachment 165537


I definitely dislike the cover, and am thinking about making my own to replace it 

But $13 is $13, and it's 2022 Decca sound.


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

too much orange... 

still huge amounts of other Sibelius for me to discover


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It has certainly been hyped. I was tempted but then read the review in the Guardian which found it quite weak apart from (I think) 2 and 4. I'll probably try to hear it some time but I have a lot of Sibelius recordings, including some exceptional ones.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Here is an alternate cover I made at 1500x1500.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I did succumb and buy it, tempted mainly by the reasonable price for the hi-res download, although I continue to wonder why I keep buying albums when I have access to them through subscriptions to three hi-res streaming services.

I have so far listened to Nos. 1, 2 and 5. Good performances and excellent recorded sound, but unlikely to replace my favorites (Lahti/Vanska, SFSO/Blomstedt, Helsinki/Berglund, Bournemouth/Berglund and Philadelphia/Ormandy, plus individual Barbirolli and Karajan releases).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

There are several video live performances of Mäkelä in Sibelius and other repertoire already out there. I found what I heard to be excellent (Sibelius First), easily sufficiently so that I'll probably get this cycle. I liked that live performance WAY better than Vänskä's with Minnesota, which I also recently heard for the first time.

One thing I'm also sure about from the videos: Mäkelä the musician is the real deal. Whatever the marketing, his actual conducting is direct, no hocus pocus. I'd play for him.

ETA: I'm very glad this release will be officially out in the U.S. later this summer (June 3): that gives the cycle a chance to be fairly auditioned and evaluated well before David "Blithering Idiot" Hurwitz inevitably savages it beyond all recognition.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

#5 - Ohh no, not again? Sloow. The 1st movement is annoying, the 2nd is just plain perverse, pulling and pushing the tempi. The 3rd is quite a bit better, rather a relief from what went before.

The others might be well done but I don't feel any desire to continue.

As to the sound quality, mostly very good but I do find it a bit 'in your face' at some points.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

the best angle



Knorf said:


> Mäkelä the musician is the real deal.


better than Furtwängler?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> Yet another young Finnish conductor, haven't we had enough already? Maybe it's a case of Mäkelä saying "Anything you [Salonen, Rouvali et.al.] can do, I can do better!" :lol:


Salonen is heavy duty, a front runner amongst living conductors.. this new guy has a long way to go to get even close...


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Salonen is heavy duty, a front runner amongst living conductors.. this new guy has a long way to go to get even close...


Based on what I've seen and heard, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he does rather better than "close" to Salonen.

I went ahead and ordered the set from Presto.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I'll listen some more today. Re Salonen, the videos of his posing are a bit of a turn off. As for Vanska, I'm not sure what the fuss is. Nothing wrong, but nothing mindblowing to my ears.

Maybe I need new ears, not a new cycle :lol:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Based on what I've seen and heard, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he does rather better than "close" to Salonen.


We'll see...I've heard Salonen conduct some great performances of some major reprrtoire - up in the "best I've ever heard" category - Le Sacre, Petrushka, Mahler 9, Sibelius 5 - for me, the bar is set pretty high to match or supersede for the new guy...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Forster said:


> . .. As for Vanska, I'm not sure what the fuss is. Nothing wrong, but nothing mindblowing to my ears.


Ditto, tho my experiences have been distinctly less than mindblowing...I don't see or hear what the fuss is...


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

the album cover and the age of the conductor would have ensured I never tried this out had I not come across this thread. So I tried a couple of torture tests where 95% of conductors do something disastrous -- the opening and closing minutes of 6 and the 7th in general. Nearly ten minutes into 7 and he hadn't mispaced anything to a significant degree. Even the climax wasn't that bad. Basically, I was quite pleasantly surprised -- not a bad sound as well -- but not riveted enough to spend more time on it. I think we have enough Sibelius cycles by now to match most tastes.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

dko22 said:


> I think we have enough Sibelius cycles by now to match most tastes.


So, what, no one should ever do one again?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Ditto, tho my experiences have been distinctly less than mindblowing...I don't see or hear what the fuss is...


Quite often with his recordings I hear concentrated magic. But his work has been mixed (some duds) and is never in your face, always subtle.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Not if they are doing it for the sake of doing it, i.e. mostly commercial reasons.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Becca said:


> ^^ Not if they are doing it for the sake of doing it, i.e. mostly commercial reasons.


People tend to make music for mostly commercial reasons, from Beethoven on down. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Knorf said:


> So, what, no one should ever do one again?


ok, ok -- you of course have a fair point there....


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Assuming that they have (a) something new worth saying, and (b) that something is something that I want to hear :lol:


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> ^^ Assuming that they have (a) something new worth saying, and (b) that something is something that I want to hear :lol:


I couldn't have put it better myself


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Becca said:


> ^^ Assuming that they have (a) something new worth saying, and (b) that something is something that I want to hear :lol:


I see. Becca and dko22 are the supreme arbiters of whether someone is allowed to make a new recording. Otherwise, it's heaps of opprobrium and invective on those evil doers!!!!!!!1 

I have not heard the new cycle. But I did order it from the UK. I'll give it a listen soon, and I will do so with open ears, and as much as I can, fairly without preconceptions or inherent misgivings. I'm genuinely curious, and I won't dismiss it _a priori_ nor assume it's good.

However, I will say that based on the excellent Sibelius 1 live video I listened to and watched, it seems to me that a full Sibelius cycle with Mäkelä makes perfect sense.

I understand to some extent the suspicions that accompany these "Wunderkinder." But let's be honest: first of all, a lot of them turn out to be really great, actually. There are many examples of conductors whose earliest recordings are among their most praised (e.g. Abbado.)

And, second of all, NO ONE IS GOING TO MAKE ANYTHING CLOSE TO A FORTUNE BY MAKING A CLASSICAL RECORDING! Fork's sake. There are almost NO classical recordings that really make any money, especially not a Sibelius symphony cycle from a largely unknown conductor. So give me a break with all this "it's just crass commercialism" rubbish. Klaus Mäkelä is not Shawn Mendes. And if you actually watch any videos, he's not at all flashy. If you imagined his arm movements on a old face you wouldn't find anything to complain about.

Of course whenever something is highly praised, there just has to be an inevitable pushback. I'm sure you'll all get a kick of out David "Donuts for Brains" Hurwitz's inevitable acrimony and demolition.

But I see no reason not to give this cycle a fair listen. Just because he's young doesn't mean he sucks.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Actually I agree about giving it a listen, which I did ... at least part of it, but didn't care for quite a bit of what I heard.

In all honesty, part of my reaction is an inherent distrust of the value of cycles as too often they are a very mixed bag for which low price doesn't make an average collection worthwhile. Having said that, it would be nice to encounter a consistently excellent cycle. If someone thinks that any given set is that one, then relax and enjoy it, meanwhile I will pick and choose individual works.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

From what I've sampled so far, I'm beginning to agree with the reviewer at the The Guardian, Andrew Clements, who writes that Mäkelä's cycle "veers between the outstanding and prosaic". He sees the set as "uneven". To my ears, some of Mäkelä's slowing down doesn't work well, & does indeed sound prosaic, & lacklustre. I don't always go for some of his unusual orchestral balances, either, where certain important musical lines that are normally quite prominent are strangely tempered & placed more into the middle ground. Yet, at other times, the music making is brilliant and the Oslo orchestra plays great, & I hear parts of the score that I've never noticed before. Which I found fascinating.

According to Clements, the performances of the 2nd and 4th are the highlights of the cycle. Which doesn't surprise me. How many 26 year old conductors have debuted their 5th, 6th, & 7th Symphonies well enough to join the pantheon of greatest Sibelius conductors on record? None that I can think of. Even many of the most seasoned Sibelius conductors don't successfully pull off these three difficult symphonies, all together, IMO. Rather, from my experience, the last three symphonies are where a more knowing & experienced conductor like Berglund clearly stands out.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...tapiola-review-klaus-makela-oslo-philharmonic

Will I buy this cycle? Maybe. I've certainly bought Sibelius cycles before that offered only two or three really outstanding performances (such as Kamu's BIS cycle, with it's incredible 4th). But I suspect that I'll continue to more enthusiastically collect conductor Owain Arwel Hughes' so far, superb 'in progress' live Sibelius cycle with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. My guess is that'll be the one to buy among recent cycles, when it's done (judging solely by Hughes' excellent Symphonies 1 & 3: 



. Sorry, but the order of the movements is annoyingly jumbled on Hughes YT page).

Speaking of which, I see Hughes' 2nd & 4th have recently been issued, as well, but I've not heard them yet. Here they are on You Tube (with the movements in their proper order, thankfully): 



. On a first very limited impression only, Mäkelä may actually be preferable to Hughes in these two symphonies. But not in the 1st & 3rd...


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

This Libelous cycle came out of the blue. Has anyone bought the physical CDs or is there a liner booklet that came with digital downloads. When were the recording sessions. Is there any mention of financial support for the cycle. Recording the entire cycle could be quite expensive. IMHO,I doubt Decca/UMG would pay 100% for the entire cycle. It is becoming much more common that there are financial supporters for recordings but not the labels themselves. The label becomes bought for marketing uses.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I like cycles. I like hearing one conductor and orchestra's take on the whole journey of Sibelius' 7.

I've been doing some spot comparisons, and I would say that the best complete "cycles" for my money (and tastes) are:

Sir Colin Davis/LSO 1997 (RCA)

Klaus Mäkelä/Oslo 2022

Paavo Berglund/Helsinki EMI 1980s 

Karajan/BPO EMI (sans 3 plus DG 7)

They each have their strengths. Mäkelä obviously has the best sound. It also has the best 4th. Karajan still nails the crescendos and has wonderfully miked percussion. Davis and Berglund are both very good all-rounders.

I find that Sibelius cycles, like Beethoven cycles, reward multiple interpretations and recordings, because the orchestration is so rich that small differences in recording can illuminate different parts entirely. If I want to just pop one in and get lost, I go with HVK. But these 4 are my tops.


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

Knorf said:


> ... I understand to some extent the suspicions that accompany these "Wunderkinder." But let's be honest: first of all, a lot of them turn out to be really great, actually. There are many examples of conductors whose earliest recordings are among their most praised (e.g. Abbado.)
> 
> And, second of all, NO ONE IS GOING TO MAKE ANYTHING CLOSE TO A FORTUNE BY MAKING A CLASSICAL RECORDING! Fork's sake. ...


Well, I think he must be doing _pretty good_ bank-wise, with all his conducting engagements and now an exclusive deal with Decca. Or I should think so!

And I have no doubt that he is very talented, he wouldn't get all these jobs otherwise.

But the marketing is just ridiculous. I mean, move over von Karajan. You see other young, talented conductors like Robin Ticciati with his face on album covers but the vibe is completely different.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I like what I've heard so far - 4th and 6th.

But does that mean I think the interpretations are 'right'? TBH, I don't even know what that is (not least because I couldn't tell you whether what is played is faithful to the score).

ADD: Presto say the UK supplier has sold out and you'll have to wait at least 6 weeks!

It is true that while I'm listening, I have in my head some expectation of what should be happening, but that expectation can only have come from an amalgam of all those versions I've previously listened to, mixed with some artificial, imagined ideal. There is no perfect performance against which each interpretation should be measured. Only a set of personal preferences.

What I most like about the tempi is that they err on the side of clarity: I can hear the instrumental detail better (most especially when listening on headphones) than on some other recordings.



FrankinUsa said:


> The label becomes bought for marketing uses.


https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/ar...finnish-conductor-joins-decca-classics-262361

The recording sessions were Feb-Jun 2021 (according to Presto).


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Helgi said:


> Well, I think he must be doing _pretty good_ bank-wise, with all his conducting engagements and now an exclusive deal with Decca. Or I should think so!
> 
> And I have no doubt that he is very talented, he wouldn't get all these jobs otherwise.
> 
> But the marketing is just ridiculous. I mean, move over von Karajan. You see other young, talented conductors like Robin Ticciati with his face on album covers but the vibe is completely different.


I just want to point out that even though I dislike the cover (and generally dislike the marketing aspects of basically anything), I am very happy and proud of musicians, composers, technicians, scholars and journalists who make their living making or processing music. If one wants to make a living out of it, marketing is a necessity. (Then again I can hardly think of more unpleasant aspect of music making that putting my own face on an album cover.)


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Here is an updated version of the alternate cover. I moved the "Oslo Philharmonic" up to make the gap between it and SIBELIUS match with the top gap.

I'm a bit of a stickler for graphic design...









By the way, the 7th on the Klaus Mäkelä set is pretty darned good.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I've started to listen and so far I like what I hear. But the CDs won't be available in the US until June. Price is in mid $20 so financial commitment is not so great. 
Omg,has anyone seen his .com page. He is conducting all the top orchestras with top notch soloists. 
I have not heard of this guy and he's all over the place. 
So far,what I hear of the Sibelius are full throated romantic performances. I'm not a big fan of the 1st. There is the Tchaikovsky complex. It seems that most have pulled back but Makela goes full out Tchaikovsky with no hold barred. I liked it.
Will be back in a few days with my thoughts on the complete set. 
I'm leaning towards ordering.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

FrankinUsa said:


> I've started to listen and so far I like what I hear. But the CDs won't be available in the US until June. Price is in mid $20 so financial commitment is not so great.
> Omg,has anyone seen his .com page. He is conducting all the top orchestras with top notch soloists.
> I have not heard of this guy and he's all over the place.
> So far,what I hear of the Sibelius are full throated romantic performances. I'm not a big fan of the 1st. There is the Tchaikovsky complex. It seems that most have pulled back but Makela goes full out Tchaikovsky with no hold barred. I liked it.
> ...


The rumours has it ( very strong) he's going be in charge at the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

My first impression after listening to Mäkelä's #2,3,4 &7 on streaming is that, he is _slow_, and he also tends to articulates a bit more to play tour guide at sightseeing spots. This is not the kind of performance that I would normally appreciate. He does maintain reasonable momentum in the last 2 movements in #2, and at most sightseeing spots in #7. I also think he tries very hard to shape the features in #4, and in a way I think he has succeeded, but it lacks intensity and dynamic range that the very best offers. Therefore I would say, these four performances are decent but they have not aroused my interest to investigate any further, let alone buying the set. Other people's milage may vary of course, as some of you are obviously a lot more positive about it than me. Also I do not like the cover. He is being sold as an idol. Unfortunately that is a common thing that record companies do.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Your comments also apply to #6 and most of #5


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> ^^ Your comments also apply to #6 and most of #5


My preference is for a slower 6th - probably because I first heard Berglund/BSO. Others, like Davis/LSO, seem too fast. I don't hear Makela's as being slower than Berglund.

I've yet to hear 5.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I've not listened to any of the recordings yet but if I may just put an alternative point of view regrading the cover and marketing of this set.
Without being disrespectful to anyone I reckon its fair to say that most of us who regularly post on here are of a certain age and may find the hype/marketing not to our liking but is it not conceivable that the marketing is being aimed at the next generation of CM listeners not us. Assuming the younger generation are streaming or buying downloads how important is the cover anyway other than to make an initial connection, it does after all mention the composer, orchestra and conductor, with the emphasis on the composer (largest type). 
I also don't hear too many people complain about box sets of conductors of yesteryear which has their faces all over the cover - so is the problem because he is young?


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Malx said:


> I've not listened to any of the recordings yet but if I may just put an alternative point of view regrading the cover and marketing of this set.
> Without being disrespectful to anyone I reckon its fair to say that most of us who regularly post on here are of a certain age and may find the hype/marketing not to our liking but is it not conceivable that the marketing is being aimed at the next generation of CM listeners not us. Assuming the younger generation are streaming or buying downloads how important is the cover anyway other than to make an initial connection, it does after all mention the composer, orchestra and conductor, with the emphasis on the composer (largest type).
> I also don't hear too many people complain about box sets of conductors of yesteryear which has their faces all over the cover - so is the problem because he is young?


I don't have a problem with the cover, although I don't like the background color too much. My problem is with it being "too much, too soon" meaning that a complete cycle at the beginning of his career is a bad move or, at least, on Decca's part. I mean here we have another symphony cycle that sits at the footsteps of what came before it. There are SO MANY incredible cycles of Sibelius symphonies that I often wonder what kind of interpretative insights could this young man bring to the podium that hasn't already been done before? What angle does he have on the music that no one else does? From the reviews I've read, it doesn't seem to be a promising start, but, again, I'm going to withhold an opinion until I actually hear _Symphonies Nos. 4-6_.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Well,Dave Hurwitz just reviewed Mandela's Sibelius cycle. Its not too positive.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ The most positive sign yet in favour of this set! The man has a gift for slating the excellent (and often praising the mundane).


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

FrankinUsa said:


> Well,Dave Hurwitz just reviewed Mandela's Sibelius cycle. Its not too positive.


Is that the cycle with the Robben Island SO


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Following Hurwitz' review, I sampled a couple of the symphonies on youtube.
And I noticed that most of the passages that Hurwitz finds problematic sound perfectly fine to me. While he doesn't mention many of the really big problems because he's too busy taking all those textures and balances apart. That's Hurwitz for you, obsessing over details and forgetting all about the stuff that really matters. It's telling that his favorite Sibelius cycle is Segerstam's - and that's all detail and no Big Picture. But hey, Segerstam has pretty details and textures and balances, and Makela has not. Meh.

Take the finale of the 5th. I don't care that the double bases are a bit loud when the swan theme is playing. Or that the timpani aren't loud enough at the end. What really bothers me is the music completely grinding to a halt in the second half of the movement, where there's a sense of tragedy, of dark clouds obscuring the sky, and where you need a very strong forward motion, otherwise there's no proper build-up to the glorious final climax. Makela loses himself revelling in those crunchy dissonances - I thought I was listening to the corresponing passage in the finale of the 4th instead...

In fact, he starts ruining the movement earlier on, detaching the flute solo from the introduction and making it sound like a alien being, not belonging to anything else in the symphony. It sounds like the flute solo from the finale of Mahler's 10th. Then some really weird passage with shimmery strings that resemble Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire... what was he thinking there? It's not in Sibelius' style, not in tempo, not in spirit.

Btw - nice to see the complete set available for listening at youtube, nicely divided in individual movements, so theoretically you could just download the whole batch, convert to mp3 and burn on a single disk. I mean, isn't this a case of letting the fox guard the hen house?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

RobertJTh said:


> Btw - nice to see the complete set available for listening at youtube, nicely divided in individual movements, so theoretically you could just download the whole batch, convert to mp3 and burn on a single disk. I mean, isn't this a case of letting the fox guard the hen house?


Given the relatively low data rate of typical YouTube videos (160K Opus), it is a rather lame, 3-legged fox :lol:


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

The recording itself is superb- Decca is always first-rate - But this needs to be heard a second time before judging the performance. Leaning towards "underwhelming" at this point but less than ideal listening conditions makes a preliminary judgement suspect.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Becca said:


> Given the relatively low data rate of typical YouTube videos (160K Opus), it is a rather lame, 3-legged fox :lol:


Well, I never cared much for High Fidelity, and for car use it would be perfectly ok, I guess.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

RobertJTh said:


> Well, I never cared much for High Fidelity, and for car use it would be perfectly ok, I guess.


Shucks, the download is only $10. Help this guy pay off his student loans!


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

FrankinUsa said:


> Well,Dave Hurwitz just reviewed Mandela's Sibelius cycle. Its not too positive.


I hear the woodwinds and brass perfectly well over the string "chugeda chugeda" in the 3rd. It's more pronounced than in my other cycles (e.g. Berglund, Davis, Rattle, with Rattle/BPO coming closest, leading me to wonder if it has to do with digital multi-miked recording), but not to an obnoxious degree. I think this should be firmly classified under "matters of taste."


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Manxfeeder said:


> Shucks, the download is only $10. Help this kid pay off his student loans!


No worries, I wouldn't want to see a tear running from those big blue eyes across those baby cheeks...
When I download something from youtube it's mostly old stuff, like refurbished mono recordings that you can't get anywhere else.

But on the other hand, call me a scrooge, but I'm not impressed enough by his endeavors in Sibelius to fork out those 10 bucks.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I hear the woodwinds and brass perfectly well over the string "chugeda chugeda" in the 3rd. It's more pronounced than in my other cycles (e.g. Berglund, Davis, Rattle, with Rattle/BPO coming closest, leading me to wonder if it has to do with digital multi-miked recording), but not to an obnoxious degree. I think this should be firmly classified under "matters of taste."


Shockingly, Hurwitz had a snarky reply for my comment to this effect on his review video. He says I'm "wrong."


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Shockingly, Hurwitz had a snarky reply for my comment to this effect on his review video. He says I'm "wrong."


And you're surprised by his response? I once suggested doing some videos on Kalevi Aho since I believe this composer needs more media coverage and he basically, in a nutshell, told me to "kiss his ***". He's already reviewed a lot of his recordings, and quite favorably, via ClassicsToday, so I figured this suggestion would be something he'd consider doing. After this exchange, I've stopped watching his videos and consider him nothing more than another ******* with a YouTube channel. His attitude and general demeanor are repugnant as are his clear biases for his "friends" that he supports like Leonard Slatkin who, in his eyes, can do no wrong.  He also continues to trash the British press and musicians who have adopted the HIP approach.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Shockingly, Hurwitz had a snarky reply for my comment to this effect on his review video. He says I'm "wrong."


It's a small miracle that your comment survived at all. He must have been in a good mood, usually he allows only boot lickers and yes men to stay.



Neo Romanza said:


> And you're surprised by his response? I once suggested doing some videos on Kalevi Aho since I believe this composer needs more media coverage and he basically, in a nutshell, told me to "kiss his ***". He's already reviewed a lot of his recordings, and quite favorably, via ClassicsToday, so I figured this suggestion would be something he'd consider doing. After this exchange, I've stopped watching his videos and consider him nothing more than another ******* with a YouTube channel. His attitude and general demeanor are repugnant as are his clear biases for his "friends" that he supports like Leonard Slatkin who, in his eyes, can do no wrong.  He also continues to trash the British press and musicians who have adopted the HIP approach.


I still watch his videos occasionally, when there's a subject that piques my interest (like yesterday's Van Beinum review). But the more you watch, the more his obvious bias becomes unbearable.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

I thought Knorf was Dave Hurwitz. Is this not so? :tiphat:


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

bias towards his friends or something like american orchestras?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Returning to the central question, did the world really need another Sibelius recording, let alone another cycle. Of course not, and Decca should be ashamed of themselves for handing over the reins of the Oslo Phil. to a glorified Calvin Klein model, who wouldn’t know a quaver from a moreish crisp of the same name. 

I suppose, as the Wu-Tang Clan once so accurately sang: “C.R.E.A.M. get the money. Dolla, dolla bills, yah!”


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

Ludwig Schon said:


> ... and Decca should be ashamed of themselves for handing over the reins of the Oslo Phil. to a glorified Calvin Klein model, who wouldn't know a quaver from a moreish crisp of the same name.


He's the Oslo Philharmonic's chief conductor.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

RobertJTh said:


> It's a small miracle that your comment survived at all. He must have been in a good mood, usually he allows only boot lickers and yes men to stay.
> 
> I still watch his videos occasionally, when there's a subject that piques my interest (like yesterday's Van Beinum review). But the more you watch, the more his obvious bias becomes unbearable.


Well, I replied as follows, and it's still up:

"One of the persistent issues I (and many others of my acquaintance) have with your reviews is that you comment on a subjective artistic medium full of varied interpretations, and declare things "right" and "wrong."

I don't particularly like HIP Beethoven, for instance. But it's not "wrong," and it would be asinine of me to claim it."


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Helgi said:


> He's the Oslo Philharmonic's chief conductor.


And high on the list for becoming chief conductor at the Royal Concertgegouw orchestra.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> I thought Knorf was Dave Hurwitz. Is this not so? :tiphat:


Ummm...nope. Knorf has clearly stated in several posts his dislike for all things David Hurwitz.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Returning to the central question, did the world really need another Sibelius recording, let alone another cycle. Of course not, and Decca should be ashamed of themselves for handing over the reins of the Oslo Phil. to a glorified Calvin Klein model, who wouldn't know a quaver from a moreish crisp of the same name.
> 
> I suppose, as the Wu-Tang Clan once so accurately sang: "C.R.E.A.M. get the money. Dolla, dolla bills, yah!"


I feel similarly as I thought the idea of a debut recording being a complete cycle of Sibelius' symphonies is just overkill. This youngster hasn't got the command over an orchestra yet and has little to no experience. I have a friend who is a conductor and of a similar age who is still working his *** off and honing his craft. He has as much talent (if not more) than Mäkelä. The friend I'm talking about is also a composer and started writing music in his early teens. I don't want to use the word prodigy, but this young man has genuine talent, but I think even he would admit that he's not quite ready for the big leagues yet.


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

I don't understand this talk about his lack of talent or command over an orchestra. Would he be considered for one of the world's top conductor jobs if he wasn't talented?



Rogerx said:


> And high on the list for becoming chief conductor at the Royal Concertgegouw orchestra.


I (really) dislike the image-building and showmanship, but he has clearly earned the respect of some of the world's top orchestras.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Helgi said:


> I don't understand this talk about his lack of talent or command over an orchestra. Would he be considered for one of the world's top conductor jobs if he wasn't talented?


For me, it boils down to experience of which Mäkelä has none. He's been active since 2017, but, honestly, I just think labels are looking for the next big superstar, but in Mäkelä's case, it just feels like it's too early, too soon. Perhaps when he reaches his 40s, I'll give him a serious listen. Until then, he's been reeled into the hype machine.


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

Well, he has some — certainly a lot of experience for his age. But I agree that it's a bit too much, too soon.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

What do you mean, he has no experience?

The important question is, is he a good conductor? He's not the first conductor to appear on the cover of albums/CDs, and can't necessarily be held responsible for the marketing by the label.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

For my part, I don't know what to make of woo statements by Hurwitz like "he does not know how to shape a passage." I think this is a very vague sort of statement which essentially boils down to "I don't like this for some reason and want to use more words than that to substitute for an explanation." At least when he points to one part being more forward than another part, it's something we can actually locate in the recording (as to whether it is "right" or "wrong" is another matter entirely).

I couldn't really care less how old or experienced a conductor is -- 24 or 124, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Sibelius is a vast enough musical universe to admit of multiple interpretations, and of emphasizing one instrument group or another. I like some recordings and performances more than others (I have heard 5 and 7 live, FWIW). But unless the instruments are literally out of tune, they're all fine and worthy of consideration.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I will have to withhold judgment on this new Sibelius set until I hear it , and. I very much want to do this . Young Klaus Makkela may very well. be promoted with slick publicity at the moment, be he is hardly the first young conductor to have gone through this . 
I haven't heard him conduct yet, but my guess is that he's a genuine and major talent . He's 26 years old , the same age when the young Zubin Mehta ,now a venerable old maestro in his 80s became music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic . But the L.A. Phil . was not one of the top orchestras in the US when he took over, and he built it onto a world class group which was in no way inferior to the so-called "big five " . The orchestra got a recording contract with Decca records and made acclaimed international tours etc under Mehta . 
But the Oslo Philharmonic is already a world class orchestra . I don't care what cynical music critics say . You are not going to be appointed music director of one of the world's top orchestras merely because you are an overhyped , handsome young guy . If the talent is not there, no amount of slick publicity and hype will enable you to make a major career as a conductor . 
Orchestral musicians are a tough , demanding. group of people . They would never allow themselves to be subject to a music director who is a total mediocrity or an incompetent one . 
The management of these orchestras would never be foolish enough to choose a mediocre or incompetent conductor . They would have as rebellion on their hands . 
Already, David Hurwitz has panned Makkela's new Sibelius cycle mercilessly on his Youtube channel ., which is a virtual recommendation for me . Let's give the new guy a chance to show his conducting chops .


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

I have not yet heard this cycle although it's had a cracking review from Gramophone magazine. I already own a bunch of Sibelius cycles and the reason I probably won't buy this is the godawful cover! I know one should not judge a book by its cover, but it does help in getting an overall impression of what's inside.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

See above


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Subutai said:


> I have not yet heard this cycle although it's had a cracking review from Gramophone magazine. I already own a bunch of Sibelius cycles and the reason I probably won't buy this is the godawful cover! I know one should not judge a book by its cover, but it does help in getting an overall impression of what's inside.


Sorry, but I beg to differ - how does a cover indicate the quality of the performances contained within the box.
I should point out my point is a general one not specific to this set as I haven't heard enough to judge as yet.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Malx said:


> Sorry, but I beg to differ - how does a cover indicate the quality of the performances contained within the box.
> I should point out my point is a general one not specific to this set as I haven't heard enough to judge as yet.


Well quite. Many of the CDs I have have quite indifferent covers, but inside is sheer beauty.

There are also plenty of maestros out there who get their fizzog on the cover - Chailly, Haitink, Karajan, Petrenko, Rattle...


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

Malx said:


> Sorry, but I beg to differ - how does a cover indicate the quality of the performances contained within the box.
> I should point out my point is a general one not specific to this set as I haven't heard enough to judge as yet.


I've always had an issue (my fault) with conductor egos. For me the star of the show is a) The composer b) the orchestra and finally c) the conductor. I prefer artistic covers where some thought has gone into the product instead of conductors looking all benign as if they're the second coming, and that includes their big heads.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Richter himself said of it: "It's a dreadful recording and I disown it utterly… Battle lines were drawn up with Karajan and Rostropovich on the one side and Oistrakh and me on the other… Suddenly Karajan decided that everything was fine and that the recording was finished. I demanded an extra take. 'No, no,' he replied, 'we haven't got time, we've still got to do the photographs.' To him, this was more important than the recording. And what a nauseating photograph it is, with him posing artfully and the rest of us grinning like idiots."


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Richter himself said of it: "It's a dreadful recording and I disown it utterly… Battle lines were drawn up with Karajan and Rostropovich on the one side and Oistrakh and me on the other… Suddenly Karajan decided that everything was fine and that the recording was finished. I demanded an extra take. 'No, no,' he replied, 'we haven't got time, we've still got to do the photographs.' To him, this was more important than the recording. And what a nauseating photograph it is, with him posing artfully and the rest of us grinning like idiots."
> View attachment 166917


I wonder if Karajan was just trying politely to shut Richter down and move on. The recording they ended up with is superlative.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

No doubt a few will have noticed that the Mäkelä was reviewed on Radio 3 "Record Review". It was utterly and uncritically gushing. What they played from symphonies 3 and 5 was like treacle although from what I investigated earlier, 7 was better than expected. Anyway, no doubt it will sell.....


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

dko22 said:


> No doubt a few will have noticed that the Mäkelä was reviewed on Radio 3 "Record Review". It was utterly and uncritically gushing. What they played from symphonies 3 and 5 was like treacle although from what I investigated earlier, 7 was better than expected. Anyway, no doubt it will sell.....


Question whatever the English CM press recommends and champions; they’re invariably wrong, and often with a xenophobic bias…


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Question whatever the English CM press recommends and champions; they’re invariably wrong, and often with a xenophobic bias…


don't worry, I do question (just like I question a certain American critic who hates all things British and loves a certain Mr Slatkin though I have to admit that my tastes more often correspond to his than the UK Establishment)


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

When it comes to critics of any nationality - read, ignore then listen for yourself ,works for me.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Question whatever the English CM press recommends and champions; they’re invariably wrong, and often with a xenophobic bias…


Hey, I even question what the Great Alex Ross has to say...I'm not xenophobic about whom I am sceptical.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Richter himself said of it: "It's a dreadful recording and I disown it utterly… Battle lines were drawn up with Karajan and Rostropovich on the one side and Oistrakh and me on the other… Suddenly Karajan decided that everything was fine and that the recording was finished. I demanded an extra take. 'No, no,' he replied, 'we haven't got time, we've still got to do the photographs.' To him, this was more important than the recording. And what a nauseating photograph it is, with him posing artfully and the rest of us grinning like idiots."
> View attachment 166917


What do you think of this recording. I haven’t heard but I think I will listen to it soon


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> What do you think of this recording. I haven’t heard but I think I will listen to it soon


It’s not really a work of LvB’s that I either rate or listen to very much. That said, it’s a perfectly fine recording though I much prefer the warmer surround sound of the Freiburger with Melnikov, Faust, et al.


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

Subutai said:


> I know one should not judge a book by its cover, but it does help in getting an overall impression of what's inside.


....And as we all know, the cover helps us to expect the quality of the recording, such as:









I remember seeing this cover when I was in my 20s (you know, back in the horse & buggy days) and thinking, "WTF?!" (or words to that effect). 

Actually, a discussion of covers, good and bad, might be interesting. This one (and the Salomé on RCA with Leinsdorf and Caballé) are fails.


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

Odd, but when I look into Mäkelä's piercing blue eyes long enough a voice appears in my head saying, "I need this set of Sibelius symphonies to add to my already too many recordings! I must have this set! I will only be happy if I buy this set! My life will be fulfilled if I buy this set! My life is worthless without this set!...."


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

After reading two glowing reviews, BBC Music Magazine and Gramophone, I decided to take the plunge and purchase the download from Amazon. With tax, it was $12.50. For that price, it was a no brainer. That was my reasoning for downloading Colin Davis' 2nd set from iTunes, it was $10! Ironically, I had finally decided last week to bite the bullet and download Bernstein's Columbia set. I've been wanting the Bernstein for years, but the price was a little too steep considering I have so many complete Sibelius symphonies, did I really need another? But I'm glad I did. BTW, I think Davis' mid-'90s recording of the 3rd symphony is about the best out there. I really think he got it right. Very nice.

So, to summarize, I now have added three complete Sibelius symphonies sets to my collection in less than a week!

Is there, per chance, a psychiatrist on this board? Cause I really need help!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Question whatever the English CM press recommends and champions; they’re invariably wrong, and often with a xenophobic bias…


This is ludicrously unfair.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Markbridge said:


> Odd, but when I look into Mäkelä's piercing blue eyes long enough a voice appears in my head saying, "I need this set of Sibelius symphonies to add to my already too many recordings! I must have this set! I will only be happy if I buy this set! My life will be fulfilled if I buy this set! My life is worthless without this set!...."


Yeah, they look so unreal; did he dye them?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Markbridge said:


> After reading two glowing reviews, BBC Music Magazine and Gramophone, I decided to take the plunge and purchase the download from Amazon. With tax, it was $12.50. For that price, it was a no brainer. That was my reasoning for downloading Colin Davis' 2nd set from iTunes, it was $10! Ironically, I had finally decided last week to bite the bullet and download Bernstein's Columbia set. I've been wanting the Bernstein for years, but the price was a little too steep considering I have so many complete Sibelius symphonies, did I really need another? But I'm glad I did. BTW, I think Davis' mid-'90s recording of the 3rd symphony is about the best out there. I really think he got it right. Very nice.
> 
> So, to summarize, I now have added three complete Sibelius symphonies sets to my collection in less than a week!
> 
> Is there, per chance, a psychiatrist on this board? Cause I really need help!


I'm not sure if I'm fully qualified to provide the help you are requesting - but I do suggest the aural equivalent of cold turkey may be the only solution, if it helps I can provide contact details that will enable you to offload the excess sets you have - I'll even do it pro bono


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I was listening recently to the Sibelius recordings made a few years ago by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales with Thomas Søndergård. Does anyone know these? I was struck that they seemed quite fresh to my ear. This is quite an achievement as I have been a little jaded with Sibelius, feeling that few performances of the symphonies seem to stand out from the many that have been made (perhaps the Minnesota Vanskas are the most recent cycle that really did say something new and yet still worked). 

I don't know if I was just in the mood or if the Søndergård recordings really are special in some way (critics were generally positive about them but not so strongly). Anyway, the point I want to make is that he seemed on track to record a cycle but this seems to have stalled after four symphonies and some tone poems. So, those arguing that we don't need any more Sibelius cycles might be pleased to hear that one cycle at least was abandoned.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Presumably abandoned due to Covid...delays the recordings, and Thomas has now moved on to RSNO?

A shame, as I liked his no 7 at the Proms back in 2017.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I was listening recently to the Sibelius recordings made a few years ago by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales with Thomas Søndergård. Does anyone know these? I was struck that they seemed quite fresh to my ear. This is quite an achievement as I have been a little jaded with Sibelius, feeling that few performances of the symphonies seem to stand out from the many that have been made (perhaps the Minnesota Vanskas are the most recent cycle that really did say something new and yet still worked).
> 
> I don't know if I was just in the mood or if the Søndergård recordings really are special in some way (critics were generally positive about them but not so strongly). Anyway, the point I want to make is that he seemed on track to record a cycle but this seems to have stalled after four symphonies and some tone poems. So, those arguing that we don't need any more Sibelius cycles might be pleased to hear that one cycle at least was abandoned.


If you are interested Enthusiast the BBC NOW and Søndergård also have a live recording from 2012 of Symphony No 5 which was a BBC MM cover disc.


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## erudite (Jul 23, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yeah, they look so unreal; did he dye them?


Photoshopped for the Instagram generation…


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

erudite said:


> Photoshopped for the Instagram generation…


And those meaningful poses by Karajan and Haitink on their album and CD covers...which generation were they for?


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