# Granate's Beethoven Symphony Challenge - Table 1 (Mono + HIP)



## Granate

*General introduction to the threads. Ignore if you have already seen it.*

This thread is one part of my Beethoven Symphonies Challenge. It will be divided in six episodes or "tables", and will compare a number of Symphony cycles in terms of performing quality and sound. The content of the six tables is closed, so please, don't ask for any cycle to be included (like Maazel Cleveland, Järvi Bremmen, Kobayashi or Asahina).

When each thread is opened, it means they offer my impressions of my favourite cycles and some remarks. You can ask me for my opinion of a lesser rated cycle inside the board and I'll try to reply whenever I can.

Each "table" (except T1) is divided according to the location of the orchestra.


*Table 1* joins mono and HIP cycles. It's the longest episode. 
*Table 2* challenges cycles made in the USA (plus the new Dudamel Venezuela cycle).
*Table 3* includes cycles made in the rest of Western Europe.
*Table 4* sets the competition between orchestras from Switzerland, Austria and the UK.
*Tables 5 & 6* finally challenges cycles from German orchestras.
Depending on the time, I may do further challenges between the winning sets from Tables 2-6. There is no cutting line in that case. It's possible that one table sends 2 runner-ups and others have 4. Luck can always be a drawback. A decent cycle in the results may not be a waste of time.

Please, take these threads as a recording recommendations and advice for potential buyers. I'm both taking notes of each symphony recording and filling an Excel board with all the cycles and their marks.

[HR][/HR]
The group that joins the Mono and HIP cycles offers for me some winning sets and a couple of runner-up. In comparative listen, some of them were tough to rate, but the purchase options for be became very clear.

*Part 1 - Mono recordings*


*Conductor**Orchestra**Release*Furtwängler, WilhelmWPO + BPO1950s, AndromedaFurtwängler, WilhelmWiener Philharmonker, etc.1953, WCKlemperer, OttoPhilharmonia Orchestra (Wiener Festwochen)1960, AndromedaScherchen, HermannWiener Staatsoper + RPO1958, BnFSchuricht, CarlO.S. des Concerts du Conservatoire1961, WCToscanini, ArturoNBC Symphony Orchestra1939, M&AToscanini, ArturoNBC Symphony Orchestra1953, SonyWeingartner, FelixRPO + WPO1938, Naxos


*Conductor**Symphonies**Orchestra**Release*Furtwängler, WilhelmNos.3,4,5,6,7,9BPO+WPO1944, M&A

The Mono Cycles, excluding Furtwängler recordings, often need a greater amount of contrast and intelligent conducting. The instruments never have as much detail as stereo recordings and dynamics and pace are the most relevant. Sets like Schuricht and Scherchen end up losing. Klemperer in concert does fine in some more than others (the sound is quite good) and Weingartner just cannot compete with a poor studio sound from the 30s and his "indifferent" conducting.

*Schuricht* and his French Orchestra set shows for me important issues with the sound and acoustics. While the orchestra plays clearly, the amount of reverb and the impersonality of the performances turn this down. His highlight is in the No.8 thanks to the work of the strings and the worst recording of the cycle is the No.6 mainly because of the sound and a lack of storytelling.

*Klemperer Live* in Vienna offers a cycle worth collecting for the curiosity of how he conducted when he had already finished his studio Beethoven recordings (except Fidelio & Missa Solemnis). The results for me were quite mixed, with better results in the odd symphonies. Not every performance was well-conducted and some lacked dynamics. The best performance was No.5, which I wish it was exactly like the studio recording.

*Wilhelm Furtwängler *

The reknowed German has conducted a great number of Beethoven performances that have been recorded and kept safe for decades. He is truly one of a kind, with a "messy" use of the baton that creates elastic performances like no one ever could. My problem with him is that he doesn't always sound inspired. He and Toscanini are very different, but some live and studio performances did no justice to his name. There are three sets, Wartime, Live recordings after the war and the Studio set with EMI and the Wiener Philharmoniker. The average of the three sets are very similar, and if you really like Furtwängler's Beethoven, you should buy the three compilations because then we can have a great mix.


*Studio Set:* the only reason it's disappointing is because of the performing difference between symphonies like No.1 and No.3. Both made in studio and rather different in liveliness. Not to mention the studio recordings that never happened (No.2, No.8 & No.9). The best recordings for me are No.5 and No.6, arranging sound quality, powerful strings and excellent pace.
*Wartime Set:* it's tricky because I find the performances to be ok, better in No.3, 4 & 7, and quite worse in No.5 (uneven) and No.6 (terrible pitch). The set is better assembled by Music & Arts, but maybe it's worth the money to purchase the Pristine Classical remasters. My favourite No.9, from 1942, has an excellent sound in Ambient stereo. It's the highlight. Hands-down perfect, apocalyptic in conducting. I wasn't as surprised as the first time.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_ Live recordings
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elsa Cavelti, Ernst Haefliger, Otto Edelmann
Berliner Philharmoniker (3,5,6,7,8)
Wiener Philharmoniker (1,2,4)
Festwochenchor Luzern (9)
Philharmonia Orchestra (9)
*Wilhelm Furtwängler
Andromeda (1950s/2011 Remastered Edition)*

*3rd:* Furtwängler Andromeda: for me, the fairest compilation of live recordings in the 50s and my first choice for this conductor. The results are usually better in odd symphonies, highlighting an incredible No.5 and very enjoyable symphonies No.3 and No.9 (Lucerne). Although the even symphonies are not brilliant, the Furtwängler factor is guaranteed so you may enjoy it as well. Great remastering.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_ Live recordings
Jarmila Novotna, Kerstin Thorborg, Jan Peerce, Nicola Moscona
The Westminster Choir
NBC Symphony Orchestra
*Arturo Toscanini
Music & Arts (1939/2013 Remastered Edition)*









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Eileen Farrell, Nan Merriman, Jan Peerce, Norman Scott
Robert Shaw Chorale
NBC Symphony Orchestra
*Arturo Toscanini
Sony Classical (1952/2003 Reissue Edition)*

*2nd & 1st:* Toscanini NBC: both sets are incredibly well conducted. I never heard a rush like the 39 set, which for me is better performed. My main issue with the 53 studio set is the sound quality that often disappoints and begs for a 24bit remaster. No.4 is the most damaged. The 39 set has harsher style in the strings and a continuous sense of thrill. 53 also has it but in less quantity. The worst sin of the 39 set is the car crash of Symphonies No.5 and No.6, where the style for some reason felt completely wrong, together with the sound quality. In the 53 set, they don't get much better either, though enjoyable. The 53 cycle didn't feel quite right in Symphonies No.1 and No.4, but suddenly began to escalate in solid symphonies No.7, 8 & No.9. These boxes are a great purchase for Beethoven, although M&A costs some money and Sony has the 53 studio set OOP and with average sound. We shall wait.

[HR][/HR]
*Part 2: Historically Informed Performances*


*Conductor**Orchestra**Release*Gardiner, John EliotOrchestre Révolutionaire et Romantique1994, Archiv-DGBrüggen, FransOrchestra of the 18th Century1994, PhilipsHarnoncourt, NikolausChamber Orchestra of Europe1991, WCHogwood, ChristopherThe Academy of Ancient Music1990, L'OiseauImmerseel, Jos vanAnima Eterna Brugge2008, AlphaWeil, BrunoTafelmusik Baroque Orchestra2017, Anakleta

There is no Norrington Cycle here. The excerpts didn't convince me.

Now we open the review for the Historically Informed Performances challenge, which has developed in a race of two great cycles and a bunch of positive comments for another. It wasn't a very level competition and from the beginning the Harnoncourt and Hogwood sets were discarded in the race.

*Harnoncourt* conducted the *Chamber Orchestra of Europe* for this cycle, which offers smooth strings and a cameristic sound that often downplays the strings in benefit of the winds. There are some recordings like No.3 and No.5 that can get a comfortable pass. It shares the bottom from time to time with Hogwood.

The *Hogwood* cycle with the *Academy of Ancient Music* is more or less a HIP orchestra that tries to sound modern (19th century) with very weak dynamics and too smooth strings. It's not that the instruments are not suitable: the strings are good enough for nice accounts of No.3, No.6 & No.8. The pace is usually fast but it barely shines. Gardiner murders this.

The *Bruno Weil* cycle for Anakleta, the second with a Baroque orchestra, proved surprising in Symphony No.1. Afterwards, it looked it was going to shine in the odd symphonies and then it slowly fade away for the dark dynamics of the recordings. The sound is really good in the first symphonies, and the highlights are of course, the excellent accounts of No.1 and No.3.

*Frans Brüggen, Orchestra of the 18th Century, 1993, Philips *

*3rd:* Frans Brüggen made one of the first HIP cycles in the 80s, with his Baroque orchestra (18th Century). His recordings are transparent but often rigid, with problems when the composition needs texture. The No.3 is the worst try of the cycle with a notable lack of grip. The rest of the recordings share a very similar mark. They are really enjoyable, and thrilling from time to time.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Luba Orgonasova, Anne Sophie von Otter, Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Gilles Cachemaille
The Monteverdi Choir
Orchestre Révolutionaire et Romantique
*John Eliot Gardiner
Archiv-DG (1994/2010 Reissue Edition)*

*2nd:* John Eliot Gardiner is the conductor of one of the referential Beethoven cycles in the discography. Released by Archiv Produktion and played by an early Romantic Orchestra, the conducting is fast and flexible, producing liquid symphonies. The playing is at times lightweight but the lack of power is usually fixed with a deep sound. The recording equipment is essential to the success of this cycle. The flexibility makes the cycle resemble to a modern orchestra effort but it only covers the gap between baroque and modern. All recordings are excellent for a cycle. Only No.8 lacked severely in dynamics and yet it won the other recordings of the same symphony. No.5, although great by itself, suffered from a darker soundscape compared to others in the cycle like No.7 or No.4. This fourth symphony, together with No.9, are the highlights of this cycle. I would buy it for that price, but after listening to the absolute winner, maybe not. This set was the only one to challenge seriously.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Anna-Kristina Kaappola, Marianne Beate Kielland, Markus Schäfer, Thomas Bauer
Anima Eterna Brugge
*Jos van Immerseel
Alpha (2008/2018 Reissue Edition)*

*1st:* Jos van Immerseel and the Anima Eterna Brugge command the HIP world collecting the best of each style: thrill and harshness of the Baroque orchestras, the Gardiner dynamics and the 2000s recording techniques. It's definitive, intense, and I feel it gives exactly what Beethoven wanted. Some remarks: in No.4 and No.8 the symphonies needed more softness and elasticity than this cycle could provide. Also No.3 is underwhelming in the first movement. The rest of the cycle is spotless, with no particular highlight.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Fantastic post and project!

But you're bound to upset someone somewhere along the line. I'll start with: Weingartner, indifferent conducting??? Jesus!!!!
I'll be honest and say I struggle with the older sets sound-wise, but I much prefer Felix over Wilhelm, and way way ahead of Toscanini.

I know those hip sets, except the Weil. My favourite, if it counts, is Krivine's. Then Immerseel.


----------



## merlinus

Excellent, Granate! I would expect no less. Look forward to the rest.


----------



## Granate

Robert Pickett said:


> But you're bound to upset someone somewhere along the line. I'll start with: Weingartner, indifferent conducting??? Jesus!!!!
> I'll be honest and say I struggle with the older sets sound-wise, but I much prefer Felix over Wilhelm, and way way ahead of Toscanini.


I can't say I'm a fan of Furtwängler, and many live and studio recordings have passed through my ears without any glory. His style is not always successful for me. However, I can never say the same about Weingartner. conducting-wise he was no worse than Schuricht or Scherchen, but he was pretty straightforward, and when that happens with such a poor sound like the one he had in his time, I have to punish it. Solti is a very straightforward conductor for me too and I often doubt about his musicianship, but the Decca team often produces a stereophonic sound I cannot reject. It happens to me in Bruckner.

And I'm all for Toscanini... the crispiness I ask for.


----------



## Merl

I've been eagerly awaiting this project since you messaged me, Granate. I hope others appreciate the time and effort you're putting into this project! Interestingly I agree with your comments on the whole. Personally I find the Toscanini sets hard to live with. The sound is pretty bad. It's a shame as I feel the same way about the Scherchen Vienna set. I really love Scherchen"s sprint thru the countryside in the Pastoral but the sound is poor to say the least. Totally agree about your comments on the Bruggen and the Weil cycles. Weil"s Pastoral is tedious, which is a shame as there are some cracking performances in there (wonderful Eroica, 7th and 1st). And yes Immerseel's cycle is my favourite HIP set too. Looking forward to the rest of this series, Granate. Great job.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Granate - it's that "crispness" in Toscanini's performances that I really don't like! On the other side of the coin Furtwangler's tendency to meander (waffle, even?) that bothers me.

I reckon I like the "straightforward" conductors, then! I don't believe Beethoven is anything other than the greatest composer, and undoubtedly these are the greatest symphonic set even composed. I don't think he needs too much augmenting with the charisma of the conductor. And yet that approach seems to encourage dullness? No, not if they get the balance right, you can hear all the voices and keep the pulse, and get the details right, it'll be great.

I look forward to further installments here, even if we seem to like our Beethoven different. I'll be interested to see what you make of my Beethoven conductor par excellence later on!


----------



## realdealblues

Well, much like your Bruckner listening experience I'm afraid I have to disagree with many of your comments and preferences. However, I will only make one comment...

Schuricht's cycle is one of the most characterful mono sets out there with some of the best mono sound around (assuming you listened to this release). I'm sure you probably streamed them, which changes the sound too much for me, but these CD's sound great for mono releases!







Schuricht's precise rhythms and orchestral clarity are astounding and the sound of the Paris Conservatory Orchestra at that time was simply out of this world. The strings were lean but full, the woodwinds were supple and the brass was piercing! From my understanding, violinist François Habeneck founded the Paris Conservatory in 1828 specifically to introduce Beethoven's symphonies to France. The traditions of the Paris Conservatory were very strict, and as the Professors trained students to replace them throughout the orchestras history, I believe the sound and performance style changed very little over the next hundred years and in my opinion is more representative to the sound of Beethoven's time than many who claim to be period correct. Regardless of my feelings on that issue, these performances are absolutely wonderful! There are NO weak links in this cycle, and along with Toscanini this is probably my favorite mono cycle (although the 9th is in early Stereo). These recordings are full of so much personality and charm and in my opinion are never given the credit they deserve. After listening to so many homogeneous and stale sounding recordings over so many years, every time I put on this cycle with that wonderful and distinct french sonority that is truly one of a kind, my ears are so thankful to hear it again.


----------



## Merl

realdealblues said:


> Well, much like your Bruckner listening experience I'm afraid I have to disagree with many of your comments and preferences.


I'm sure you won't be the last to disagree on LvB cycles......no doubt there will some heavy disagreement fron me further down the line (for now I generally agree with MOST of that OP.



realdealblues said:


> Schuricht's cycle is one of the most characterful mono sets out there with some of the best mono sound around (assuming you listened to this release). I'm sure you probably streamed them, which changes the sound too much for me, but these CD's sound great for mono releases!


Yep. Schuricht's cycle is one of my favourite mono sets too, RealdealBlues (apart from Scherchen's wacky traversals). Like you I love that brass (although I believe critics of that time hated it). Also, Schuricht is no slouch so that's a bonus for me too. I much prefer symphonies 5-9 than 1-4 though and find his Eroica a very hard listen (the sound is rough on that one and the account is problematic for me). However a great 5th, 7th and 9th make this set mandatory listening. Good shout, Mr. RDB!


----------



## Granate

realdealblues said:


> Well, much like your Bruckner listening experience I'm afraid I have to disagree with many of your comments and preferences. However, I will only make one comment...


For me Schurich fell in clear sound disadvantage compared to Furtwängler. I didn't like the acoustics at all. I wanted more contrast. I was hopeful for that set...but from Symphony No.1 and the tests I marked a certain criteria: a defined and distinctive conducting style and bold acoustics that make it up for the lack of orchestral detail (due to mono recording techniques).

It's a pity that I never published the report, but by the beginning of December 2017 I made a small Bruckner challenge with cycles that didn't do much for me. All I could say was that I had very good news for Becca and you. I just never found the time to open that discussion thread.


----------



## wkasimer

Robert Pickett said:


> I know those hip sets, except the Weil. My favourite, if it counts, is Krivine's. Then Immerseel.


I agree - the Krivine is my preferred HIP cycle, too.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granite, as far as HIP performances are concerned did you hear Monica Huggett and the Hanover Band set?


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Granite, as far as HIP performances are concerned did you hear Monica Huggett and the Hanover Band set?


No Krivine, no Norrington, no Hanover Band. Sorry


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

Robert Pickett said:


> I'll start with: Weingartner, indifferent conducting???...I'll be honest and say I struggle with the older sets sound-wise, but I much prefer Felix over Wilhelm...


For as long as I can remember, I've always preferred what I hear as Weingartner's less inflected style of music making to Furtwangler's.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> *Granite*, as far as HIP performances are concerned did you hear Monica Huggett and the Hanover Band set?












Oh no


----------



## Taplow

Also in the HIP realm: I have been very impressed with *Giovanni Antonini*'s recordings of the symphonies with the Kammerorchester Basel. At least the ones I've heard. Their recordings of 1-8 have been released separately (1 & 2 on Oehms Classics, SACD, 3-8 on Sony). Recording of the 9th was completed in November/December last year, but there is yet to be any word of a possible release, so the cycle is not complete yet. But there have been good reviews of the live performances of the 9th, so I'm looking out for it.

I was less impressed by Brüggen and Immerseel, but for both of these you mentioned weaknesses with the 3rd, and that is usually my go-to for a first impression. By contrast, I thoroughly enjoy Harnoncourt's reading of the 3rd with the COE (where a friend of mine is playing in the first violins).


----------



## Manxfeeder

realdealblues said:


> Schuricht's cycle is one of the most characterful mono sets out there with some of the best mono sound around (assuming you listened to this release). I'm sure you probably streamed them, which changes the sound too much for me, but these CD's sound great for mono releases!.


Thanks for your comments. I've just started sampling this on YouTube, and I wondered if the sound was better on the physical recordings. I'm also looking forward to hearing his Bruckner.


----------



## classfolkphile

Overall I am not a fan of the HIP performances. The thin, harsh string sound is intolerable for me and the speeds are just too hectic, driven. Makes Beethoven sound angry and yes, I know he was, but his music doesn't sound right to me played that way. I've heard the Hogwood, Harnoncourt (disappointing, as the natural horns and tympani are too die for), Gardener, Goodman, and Norrington (LCP). I do however actually like the Norrington 2, 3 and 8 as the tempi are not that fast and the strings only a bit thin on top.


Of the historical recordings I like the Weingartner 3rd but haven't heard the others in the set. Nor have I heard most of the other sets listed above.

I found both Toscanini sets too driven after some initial enjoyment of the excitement and precision conducting/playing. The sound qualities are also disqualifying.

I've heard the studio mono Klemperer set and found it plodding. 

The only Furtwangler set I've heard is the EMI one. This was before it was remastered though I don't think that would change my opinion of it as my objection is the pushing and pulling that he does with the phrasing of the music. And too slow, too fast, over and over. The exceptions are the 6th (even though it sounds as much like Bruckner as Beethoven) and the 9th. It seems Furtwangler was at his best in the 9th as I also have and love his monumental '42 and '54 recordings of it.


----------



## Varick

GRANATE: I don't get here to TC nearly as often as I'd like like I have this past week or so, but I just discovered these threads because I saw Merl's. So before I started with his, I wanted to see yours first. What a labor of love this must have been. Oh, to have the time to do something like this....

Great job, I look forward to reading the others. Thank you for all your hard work on such a project. 

V


----------



## Granate

Thank you! I need to find time to translate all the challenges I have finished.


----------



## Larkenfield

realdealblues said:


> Well, much like your Bruckner listening experience I'm afraid I have to disagree with many of your comments and preferences. However, I will only make one comment...
> 
> Schuricht's cycle is one of the most characterful mono sets out there with some of the best mono sound around (assuming you listened to this release). I'm sure you probably streamed them, which changes the sound too much for me, but these CD's sound great for mono releases!
> View attachment 102138
> 
> Schuricht's precise rhythms and orchestral clarity are astounding and the sound of the Paris Conservatory Orchestra at that time was simply out of this world. The strings were lean but full, the woodwinds were supple and the brass was piercing! From my understanding, violinist François Habeneck founded the Paris Conservatory in 1828 specifically to introduce Beethoven's symphonies to France. The traditions of the Paris Conservatory were very strict, and as the Professors trained students to replace them throughout the orchestras history, I believe the sound and performance style changed very little over the next hundred years and in my opinion is more representative to the sound of Beethoven's time than many who claim to be period correct. Regardless of my feelings on that issue, these performances are absolutely wonderful! There are NO weak links in this cycle, and along with Toscanini this is probably my favorite mono cycle (although the 9th is in early Stereo). These recordings are full of so much personality and charm and in my opinion are never given the credit they deserve. After listening to so many homogeneous and stale sounding recordings over so many years, every time I put on this cycle with that wonderful and distinct french sonority that is truly one of a kind, my ears are so thankful to hear it again.


Oh my. This is wonderful. This is a mono recording from 1949 but just listen to the wonderful ambience and presence of sound it has:






I consider his conducting just wow. I think one of the truly forgotten ages of recording took place after the second world war and before stereo came in. There were so many great recordings within that period. But they have mostly been forgotten because they were mono. I call these "the lost years of forgotten great recordings". Someone should do a thread on the lost and forgotten years - I'm just not the type - I would dig up some of these great performances that are neglected just because they are mono. After the war, there were great advancements in recorded sound even if it wasn't stereo. If it's a great recording in good sound I generally don't even notice whether it's mono or stereo because the ears will naturally adjust.


----------



## DavidA

Just to point out that Harnoncourt is not strictly HIP as modern instruments are used. Pretty good performances but he makes a complete mess of the ninth.
I always think it a tragedy that Toscanini's recordings were made in the notoriously dry Studio 8H which effectively removes a lot of the beauty and body from the playing.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I tried to understand Immerseel last night by sampling his set, and I still don't get it. It's just not Beethoven. It sounds more like Beethoven stuffed into an agenda. Was not moved at all.

I have a few comments on historical performances. I will save Furtwangler for last, whom I consider the ultimate Beethoven interpreter on record.

Weingartner was probably the most consistently impressive outside of Furtwangler even though his style was very different, much more classical and refined. His 5th is the one out of the cycle that lacks the necessary punch, but the others are among the best ever put on record. Weingartner's Brahms was perhaps even more impressive.

Toscanini made excellent versions of Nos. 3 (1939), 5 (1933) and especially 7 (1936). Gramophone Magazine included the 1936 7th on their list of 100 Greatest Recordings of All Time, and I can see why. It is truly remarkable and exciting. Unfortunately Toscanini's better recorded later versions show his propensity for being hard-driven and inflexible, not virtues in Romantic German repertoire.

Other individual historic recordings worthy of praise:

1 - Walter (live 1947)
2 - Beecham, E. Kleiber, Krauss
3 - Klemperer (live 1957), Pfitzner, Van Kempen, E. Kleiber
4 - Klemperer (live 1957), Beecham
5 - Jochum (1951 on Tahra - fantastic!), Klemperer (live 1957), Bohm (1953), De Sabata, Nikisch (1913!), E. Kleiber
6 - De Sabata, E. Kleiber, Pfitzner
7 - Klemperer (live 1957), Van Kempen
8 - Pfitzner, Van Kempen, Walter (1942)
9 - Klemperer (live 1957), Walter (1955), Toscanini (1938), Abendroth (1950 on Tahra), Schuricht (1959)

Now on to Furtwangler. I agree that the post-war Andromeda set is the best collection of Furtwangler recordings, but why get second-rate transfers when one can get them individually? The only reason is price.

A much better choice is this set, which I have seen available as a download from itunes. It contains the 12/8/52 3rd, 5/25/47 5th and 6th, and 1953 7th and 8th. All have fair claim to being the definitive Furtwangler versions (though I marginally prefer the 1944 3rd and 1954 6th).










I would then supplement this with the original transfer from Orfeo of the 1951 Bayreuth 9th:










Many will claim the 1954 Lucerne 9th is greater (best heard on Audite). It is certainly better recorded, but to my ear is less inspired and a bit tired sounding by comparison.

Of course both versions take a back seat to the great 1942 9th, which is a must. The most impressive wartime recordings are IMO the 3rd, 4th and 9th (as well as the shattering Coriolan Overture). These are best heard on Tahra or, in the case of the 4th, DG. But you certainly cannot go wrong collecting them all together on the Music & Arts set, which I think is better than the Andromeda wartime transfers.










So, to sum up on Furtwangler, my choice recordings for his Beethoven are the following. I have put in bold the versions that are included in my three recommended sets above.

1 - 11/29/52 (Orfeo, Tahra, Music & Arts, Andromeda)

2 - 1948 - the only one (EMI, Music & Arts, Andromeda)

3 - *1944* (Tahra, Orfeo, *Music & Arts*, Preiser, Andromeda) or *12/8/52* (*Tahra*, Audite, Music & Arts, Andromeda)

4 - *1943* (DG, *Music & Arts*, Andromeda)

5 - *5/25/1947* (*Tahra*, Music & Arts, Audite) or *1943* (Tahra, DG, Opus, *Music & Arts*, Andromeda) or 5/23/1954 (Tahra, Music & Arts, Audite, Andromeda) or 5/27/47 (DG)

6 - 5/23/1954 (Tahra, Music & Arts, Audite, Andromeda) or *5/25/1947* (*Tahra*, Music & Arts, Audite)

7 - *1953* (DG, *Tahra*, Music & Arts, Andromeda) or *1943* (*Music & Arts*, Tahra, DG, Andromeda)

8 - *1953* (DG, *Tahra*, Music & Arts, Andromeda)

9 - *3/22/42* (Tahra, *Music & Arts*, Archipel, Andromeda) or *7/29/1951* (Tahra, *Orfeo*, EMI) or 8/22/54 (Audite, Tahra, Music & Arts, Andromeda)

And don't forget the 1943 Coriolan Overture, one of the greatest Beethoven recordings in existence! (Tahra, Music & Arts, DG, Andromeda)


----------



## Merl

Brahmsianhorn said:


> :
> 
> 1 - Walter (live 1947)
> 2 - Beecham, E. Kleiber, Krauss
> 3 - Klemperer (live 1957), Pfitzner, Van Kempen, E. Kleiber
> 4 - Klemperer (live 1957), Beecham
> 5 - Jochum (1951 on Tahra - fantastic!), Klemperer (live 1957), Bohm (1953), De Sabata, Nikisch (1913!), E. Kleiber
> 6 - De Sabata, E. Kleiber, Pfitzner
> 7 - Klemperer (live 1957), Van Kempen
> 8 - Pfitzner, Van Kempen, Walter (1942)
> 9 - Klemperer (live 1957), Walter (1955), Toscanini (1938), Abendroth (1950 on Tahra), Schuricht (1959)
> 
> N


Although I'm not with you on some of these, Brahmsianhorn, I totally agree that Abendroth's 9th is absolutely glorious (it makes me smile whenever I hear it), Erich Kleiber's 3rd, 5th and 6th, Schuricht's 9th, and Klemperer's 3rd are great recordings. However Klemperer never came to terms with the 7th for me. His earlier attempts seem too forced and the music never dances (even at slightly brisker tempos) and his later efforts were practically comatose (don't get me wrong I like Klemperer's Beethoven but the 7th is one symphony he just never 'got' for me). I'm a great admirer of Schuricht's whole cycle, though. There's just something about it that feels 'right'. I don't see what people see in Van Kempen's Beethoven, though. It bores me rigid. Never heard Jochum's 1951 5th......will have to investigate that.


----------



## Larkenfield

“I'm a great admirer of Schuricht's whole cycle, though. There's just something about it that feels 'right'.” Merl

Bingo. That’s the exact impression I had when I first heard him—that there was something so ‘right’ about it and he seemed to understand Beethoven down to the ground because he plays him so vigorously and yet so relaxed at the same time. I think that only happens through familiarity. I think he’s one of the greatest Beethoven conductors I’ve ever heard with the rightness of his pacing and patience. These are mature interpretations that still sound fresh and alive. Just wow.
.


----------



## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> "I'm a great admirer of Schuricht's whole cycle, though. There's just something about it that feels 'right'." Merl
> 
> Bingo. That's the exact impression I had when I first heard him-that there was something so 'right' about it and he seemed to understand Beethoven down to the ground because he plays him so vigorously and yet so relaxed at the same time. I think that only happens through familiarity. I think he's one of the greatest Beethoven conductors I've ever heard with the rightness of his pacing and patience. These are mature interpretations that still sound fresh and alive. Just wow.


I'm glad that you like it so much, Larkenfield. I've always felt the same affection for Ansermet's Suisse Romande cycle too. For some it's relentless but for me it's just rivetting.


----------



## Larkenfield

Perhaps my biggest gripe about the mono recordings after the war and leading up to the stereo age, was the poor quality of so many of Toscanini’s recordings from Studio 8-H. He just seemed indifferent to good quality recorded sound and I feel that it greatly damaged his legacy that he would have put up with it for so long. But just listen to the quality of Schuricht's recordings during the same era as Toscanini’s. And both conductors could pace Beethoven amazingly well but Schuricht's rarely seem to sound forced or rushed, at least with what I’ve heard so far. It’s good that more of these excellent mono recordings in good quality sound are being presented. I think one of the more forgotten talented conductors of the ‘50s was Dimitri Mitropoulos, who preceded Bernstein as a conductor of the NYP. I’m sorry that I haven’t heard more of his recordings and he was excellent with Mahler before Bernstein ever was. But unfortunately, so many of his recordings took place during “the forgotten years” in mono preceding the stereo era.


----------



## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> Perhaps my biggest gripe about the mono recordings after the war and leading up to the stereo age, was the poor quality of so many of *Toscanini's recordings from Studio 8-H. He just seemed indifferent to good quality recorded sound and I feel that it greatly damaged his legacy that he would have put up with it for so long.* But just listen to the quality of Schuricht's recordings during the same era as Toscanini's. And both conductors could pace Beethoven amazingly well but Schuricht's rarely seem to sound forced or rushed, at least with what I've heard so far. It's good that more of these excellent mono recordings in good quality sound are being presented. I think one of the more forgotten talented conductors of the '50s was Dimitri Mitropoulos, who preceded Bernstein as a conductor of the NYP. I'm sorry that I haven't heard more of his recordings and he was excellent with Mahler before Bernstein ever was. But unfortunately, so many of his recordings took place during "the forgotten years" in mono preceding the stereo era.


I believe Toscanini did not only put up with it but rather requested his recordings be made in Studio 8H


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> I believe Toscanini did not only put up with it but rather requested his recordings be made in Studio 8H


Correct. Toscanini liked the dry sound. He was all about clarity and did not care for tonal opulence, the opposite of Karajan. As I stated above, Toscanini's style was simply not suited to German Romantic repertoire.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Correct. Toscanini liked the dry sound. He was all about clarity and did not care for tonal opulence, the opposite of Karajan. As I stated above, Toscanini's style was simply not suited to German Romantic repertoire.


Toscanini is brilliant. It is the recording that is the problem


----------



## DavidA

Merl said:


> Although I'm not with you on some of these, Brahmsianhorn, I totally agree that Abendroth's 9th is absolutely glorious (it makes me smile whenever I hear it), Erich Kleiber's 3rd, 5th and 6th, Schuricht's 9th, and *Klemperer's 3rd are great recordings. However Klemperer never came to terms with the 7th for me. His earlier attempts seem too forced and the music never dances (even at slightly brisker tempos) and his later efforts were practically comatose (don't get me wrong I *like Klemperer's Beethoven but the 7th is one symphony he just never 'got' for me). I'm a great admirer of Schuricht's whole cycle, though. There's just something about it that feels 'right'. I don't see what people see in Van Kempen's Beethoven, though. It bores me rigid. Never heard Jochum's 1951 5th......will have to investigate that.


Must confess I have never come to terms with the first movement of Klemperer's Eroica. The tempo is just too slow for Allegro con brio. The funeral march is another matter. I rather like his 1955 7th though which gas been described as 'magnificently truculent'


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

realdealblues said:


> Well, much like your Bruckner listening experience I'm afraid I have to disagree with many of your comments and preferences. However, I will only make one comment...
> 
> Schuricht's cycle is one of the most characterful mono sets out there with some of the best mono sound around (assuming you listened to this release). I'm sure you probably streamed them, which changes the sound too much for me, but these CD's sound great for mono releases!
> View attachment 102138
> 
> Schuricht's precise rhythms and orchestral clarity are astounding and the sound of the Paris Conservatory Orchestra at that time was simply out of this world. The strings were lean but full, the woodwinds were supple and the brass was piercing! From my understanding, violinist François Habeneck founded the Paris Conservatory in 1828 specifically to introduce Beethoven's symphonies to France. The traditions of the Paris Conservatory were very strict, and as the Professors trained students to replace them throughout the orchestras history, I believe the sound and performance style changed very little over the next hundred years and in my opinion is more representative to the sound of Beethoven's time than many who claim to be period correct. Regardless of my feelings on that issue, these performances are absolutely wonderful! There are NO weak links in this cycle, and along with Toscanini this is probably my favorite mono cycle (although the 9th is in early Stereo). These recordings are full of so much personality and charm and in my opinion are never given the credit they deserve. After listening to so many homogeneous and stale sounding recordings over so many years, every time I put on this cycle with that wonderful and distinct french sonority that is truly one of a kind, my ears are so thankful to hear it again.












This collection of Beethoven symphonies picked by conductors, Rattle, Gardiner, Zinman and others picked Schurict's 4th and 9th for this set.


----------



## Granate

Hello. I was a bit bored this afternoon. I had lots of inspiration yesterday but work today was rather odd. I've spent one year with the Schuricht Paris Cycle. I spent almost 30€ for all the recordings (it bugs me that I now see the set for 15€), and it became certainly a very interesting cycle that I sometimes revisit. It inspires me, but not all symphonies move me. I loved the way they played the first CD (1 & 3).

Toscanini again was another matter. The Memories Reverence series on sale have tempted me to buy performances by Koussewitzky, Beecham or Munch. But in the end I've purchased extra recordings and performances by Konwitschny, Klemperer and double Toscanini. I'm really eager to listen to them. The former is already here with me, but I took those rare chances to get the Amsterdam 1955-1956 Beethoven performances conducted by Klemperer and some Toscanini performances I had not listened to before, including a daunting Colón 9th. And today, as soon as I saw the offer (13€), I purchased the Memories edition of the 1939 Toscanini cycle that I had loved so much in this challenge. I would like to get from Sony the Toscanini, Szell and Bernstein too. But listening to samples from that Memories edition (a weird Japanese blogger had uploaded his rips), those performances by Toscanini were infectious. I needed to continue by Traviata listenings, but my brain pleaded me to continue listening to Beethoven.

I've streamed the whole Klemperer Amsterdam performances plus the extras from the Memories set. Very interesting style, but it wasn't too different from the Studio cycle. However, it felt way faster and unique. And you have Gustav Neidlinger as a bass on the 9th!

I hope I'm lucky and I get these sets by mid March. And that's it. Were you ever interested in Historical Beethoven apart from Furtwängler? His Andromeda set seems to be getting more expensive...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

These are fantastic reviews, Granate! Really enjoy reading them. I must say I don't get the Toscanini craze at all. His Beethoven lacks any semblance of musicality or roominess to my ears. Rush, rush, rush with no sense of occasion; even though you can hear every detail crystal-clear. But then again, I'm a Furty Fanatic (as you could probably tell from the photo personality I choose to project here...) Do you have any recommendations for a particular Toscanini Beethoven recording that showcases him at his finest?


----------



## Heck148

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ....Do you have any recommendations for a particular Toscanini Beethoven recording that showcases him at his finest?


I love Toscanini's Beethoven....he moves it along, but it's not rushed, always marvelously flexible with the tempo - some well known great ones:
Sym #3 "Eroica" - NBC/'49, '53 is good, too, but '49 is a classic
Sym #7 - NYPO/'36
Leonore Ov #3 - NBC '39


----------



## Granate

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Do you have any recommendations for a particular Toscanini Beethoven recording that showcases him at his finest?


Thank you AcB. I think you are really well served if you have enough Furtwängler Beethoven recordings. I've blindly purchased two sets of Brahms by him next to Knappertsbusch. Do you own the Andromeda Lily box?

It's been really long since I last listened to Toscanini Beethoven, but I've listened to the First Movement of the 9th he performed in Colón and it gave me the same vibes as the Furtwängler Berlin 1942. I imagine the former was way faster.


----------



## Duncan

Allegro Con Brio said:


> These are fantastic reviews, Granate! Really enjoy reading them. I must say I don't get the Toscanini craze at all. His Beethoven lacks any semblance of musicality or roominess to my ears. Rush, rush, rush with no sense of occasion; even though you can hear every detail crystal-clear. But then again, I'm a Furty Fanatic (as you could probably tell from the photo personality I choose to project here...) *Do you have any recommendations for a particular Toscanini Beethoven recording that showcases him at his finest?*


*Beethoven: Seventh Symphony; New York Philharmonic, Carnegie Hall, 1936*


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Granate said:


> Thank you AcB. I think you are really well served if you have enough Furtwängler Beethoven recordings. I've blindly purchased two sets of Brahms by him next to Knappertsbusch. Do you own the Andromeda Lily box?
> 
> It's been really long since I last listened to Toscanini Beethoven, but I've listened to the First Movement of the 9th he performed in Colón and it gave me the same vibes as the Furtwängler Berlin 1942. I imagine the former was way faster.


Streaming is my only method of listening, so I don't own any physical music. But that Andromeda set, if I remember right, is much better than the other available Warner set which mostly features VPO performances where he was a tad less inspired.

As for Toscanini, I think part of the reason why I struggle to enjoy him is the dry, non-resonant nature of his recordings. I know he wanted it this way so every detail could be heard, but it just sounds lifeless to me. No doubt, his conducting was extraordinary, balancing lyricism and power in perfect proportion. But either due to the limitations of the recording technology, the lack of elasticity or something else, it always leaves me cold.


----------



## Vicente

Hi all
Granate, very many thanks for all this hard work. I am enjoying a lot reading all your opinions on this superb theme.
I am taking my time to listen to the symphonies sets I own (Hogwood, Harnoncourt, Weil and Inmerseel). As you can see all are HIP performances, I am not a big fan of "ancient" recordings.
Even though I see there is a great knowledge level in this fórum, I will post my own humble aficionado opinions. Discard them as fast as you read them, but is a good way for me to improve my own knowledge.
Thanks again
Vicente Vida
PS. Hope I am not harming english alnguage too much, I am from Spain and my english knowledge is below average.


----------



## Granate

*Beethoven mono Bliss*

Hello again guys in quarantine. These days I'm having a rest from Verdi Operas (although with this dramatic Virus pace I may have time to review all Otello recordings before lockdown ends) and enjoying Beethoven cycles I recently purchased. I have some upcoming comments about the Toscanini recordings but today I would just mention two conductors I've listened thouroughly (I mean, by themselves, not against each other).


















I had previously praised the Konwitschny Leipzig Studio cycle (for the combination of brilliant playing, slow and measured conducting and great recording decisions), so I purchased this mono set with various Beethoven recordings by the same conductor (symphonies and a Missa Solemnis). To put it short, I could have saved those 12€. I got nothing else than more knowledge from these studio and live recordings, especially interesting to hear how Konwitschny and Leipzig perform No.6 and No.7 live, but no showstoppers. The Missa has good conducting although the singers are up to your taste. A bit dry in acoustics. Most notable were a very well-brought *Choral* despite the singing spoiling the event (just the conducting experience I was expecting) and especially I recommend listening to the Studio mono *No.3 "Eroica"* in Dresden, thick playing, heavy feel in the conducting, superb experience for me.


















This Klemperer compilation is a personal recommendation. I honestly listened to it without any order: first the No.9 from Amsterdam 1964 because I had not listened to it previously, and then the ousiders Torino No.1 (Studio) and Köln No.3 (Live). I was enraptured by the three of them, even dancing to the No.1 while I was in the kitchen. Amazing and joyful. The No.9, enjoying better SQ than the other Amsterdam recordings in this set, grabbed be from the first second. It all feels better with good headphones on. Every phrase is a world by itself. Slightly sad because the choral and soloist section wasn't as neat as the orchestral movements, so it's better to ignore them to keep enjoying the performance. Probably the No.3 from Köln, live performance, was the most successful in this compilation. I was especially moved by the Funeral March as well as the full symphony.

The rest of Amsterdam 55-56 performances did not meet those amazing standards for me, especially because of the SQ of the tapes used in these cds that I think they sounded better in the archiphon releases in Spotify. The performances, however, feature every bit of Klemperer you can expect, at a much faster pace than the studio cycle. Despite the SQ, very recommended No.2, No.4 and No.5, good No.6 and No.7, and very decent for No.8.

This compilation totally feels like Klemperer and why he was considered the top Beethoven conductor of the post-Furt pre-Karajan era. It was very easy for me to stay immersed. I've yet to get the Vienna 1960 cycle to see the complements, but I had the feeling that these Amsterdam performances were worth the listen and now they have proven me right.

You can get one of the last ebay copies searching the UPC (4562484885000) as the Amazon existences seem to be over.

It's very likely that my preferred Beethoven collection features the names of Schuricht, Toscanini, Konwitschny, Furtwängler and now Klemperer. Maybe Bernstein and Szell can join in the future if their cycles don't run OOP.


----------



## Granate

*New Finding*










Beethoven
_*Symphony No.9 in D minor "Choral"*_
Maria Stader, Grace Höffman, Waldemar Kmentt, Hans Hotter
Chor des Norddeutschen Rundfunks
Kölner Rundfunkchor
Kólner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester
*Otto Klemperer
Medici arts (1958/2009 Remastered Edition)*

Archiphon released a new edition of the Klemperer Cologne recordings and I found a performance, live or studio, but certainly without audience, that I didn't know. I even stayed late in the night to listen to it completely. The whole performance had surprises for me in all movements, it was feeling way different than the Amsterdam 1964 or even more thrilling than the Amsterdam 1956. Best think was that the performance had a crowning last movement (that the 1964 didn't offer) counting with a chorus on point, blissful. Maybe the singers were an odd choice but they felt way more relatable. Faster conducting than you may expect from Klemperer. Perfect to complete my collection of 1950s Klemperer Beethoven. A great discovery.

It turns out that Medici Arts had released a phisical copy from the original tapes as well as the Missa Solemnis in 1955. Very few sellers offer it today. But moviemars uk on ebay has now 9 units for a bargain price. Clean resonant mono sound.

UPC EAN is 0827565047321


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I second the choice of the 1936 NYPO 7th as showing Toscanini at his best.

My desert island historical choices for Beethoven symphonies:

3 - Furtwängler ‘44, Klemperer live ‘57, Toscanini ‘39

4 - Furtwängler ‘43, Klemperer live ‘57

5 - Furtwängler 5/25/47, ‘43, and 5/23/54, Jochum ‘51, Toscanini ‘33, Klemperer live ‘57

6 - Furtwängler 5/23/54 and 5/25/47

7 - Furtwängler ‘53 and ‘43, Klemperer live ‘57

8 - Furtwängler ‘53

9 - Furtwängler ‘42, ‘51 Bayreuth, and ‘54 Lucerne, Klemperer live ‘61 and live ‘57


----------



## Granate

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I second the choice of the 1936 NYPO 7th as showing Toscanini at his best.
> 
> My desert island historical choices for Beethoven symphonies:
> 
> 3 - Furtwängler '44, *Klemperer live '57 (Danish performance?)*, Toscanini '39
> 
> 4 - Furtwängler '43, Klemperer live '57
> 
> 5 - Furtwängler 5/25/47, '43, and 5/23/54, Jochum '51, Toscanini '33, Klemperer live '57
> 
> 6 - Furtwängler 5/23/54 and 5/25/47
> 
> 7 - Furtwängler '53 and '43, Klemperer live '57
> 
> 8 - Furtwängler '53
> 
> 9 - Furtwängler '42, '51 Bayreuth, and '54 Lucerne, Klemperer live '61 and live '57




















Hello. By the Klemperer live recordings do you mean these? All from the Royal Festival Hall? Because these are the only two ones I found on print. I'd like to preview them too. Do you find it ok to dm me the RIPs of the two cds with the four symphonies (I already know the 57 live 9th). Thank you very much.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Granate said:


> Hello. By the Klemperer live recordings do you mean these? All from the Royal Festival Hall? Because these are the only two ones I found on print. I'd like to preview them too. Do you find it ok to dm me the RIPs of the two cds with the four symphonies (I already know the 57 live 9th). Thank you very much.


Yes, those are the ones! Not sure what you mean by RIPs


----------



## Merl

I think Granate's after digital rips of them for a review, BHS.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Hello. By the Klemperer live recordings do you mean these? All from the Royal Festival Hall? Because these are the only two ones I found on print. I'd like to preview them too. Do you find it ok to dm me the RIPs of the two cds with the four symphonies (I already know the 57 live 9th). Thank you very much.


If anyone is interested, Berkshire Record Outlet has both of these in stock.

At least they did when I ordered them yesterday....


----------



## Granate

Merl said:


> I think Granate's after digital rips of them for a review, BHS.


Yeah, It's to find out if I should also purchase them. There's an Amazon Uk seller that only sells Testament recordings and has these on print among many others. I'm thinking about becoming a Klemperer completist :lol:

I could listen today by youtube to the Danish Eroica conducted by Klemperer. It's fast but I didn't like it. It lacked Klempererness. Disappointing.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Yes, I think Berkshire is where I acquired my copies as well.

Also, don’t forget his fantastic Danish Eroica, coupled on 2 CDs with Brahms’ 4th and Mozart’s 29th.


----------



## Merl

I giggled at 'Klempererness, Granate. Lol


----------



## Granate

Guys!

5 of my Protagonista UK orders (and already refunded) arrived by post 2 days before leaving my house and moving out forever. I can't be luckier, but I had ordered other things that I thought to be lost but now they could arrive and not be ever picked. That's not today's story.

I've not often been crazy about the widely available Musikverein Beethoven cycle that Klemperer conducted in 1960. I only wanted to own the two approaches that profit better from his slow pace: the 3rd and the 6th which are winners in my opinion. I did think that this is the style that Klemperer should have performed in the studio cycle.

I opened the Memories case and picked the No.9 to play on my cd player with my headphones. I was startled and confused: I didn't remember to listen to the Klemperer Vienna cycle with this kind of forward and closely miked sound quality. I'm not even sure if the "ambience" is compromised. I tested the same excerpt in the Andromeda, Music & Arts and IDIS release that were available on spotify (they are all different remasters, usually IDIS being the cleanest and loudest one). Neither of them came close to the forwardness of this Memories Reverence set.

So I am now listening to the No.9 like it was the first time, louder than any other listen before, almost with the quality of a mono studio recording. I was really busy during the second movement, and quite liked the 3rd. And the Finale is somehting to study. It starts with a different source recording so there is no crumpling or loudness distortion, then switches again to the close microphones and keeps combining the ambience with the closer instruments. There's another microphone for each singer although it's like the soprano Lipp does not get the best out of it. The microphone for the chorus is often distorted and lower but provides enough ambience. The performance is fantastic throughout it, not comparable to the Cologne 1958.

In the mean time, I recommend you to get this particular Memories set currently sold in Amazon UK for £6. I thought I was going to need to order it again, just to get the 3rd and 6th. Now I'm wondering myself how this listen will end.



Granate said:


> (Testament Beethoven Nos. 2, 4, 5 & 7 with Philharmonia, 1957 Live performances, Otto Klemperer)


As a side note, I've became bored by these four recordings. They sound clearer but les quirky than the Amsterdam performances. I just guess I was never going to know if I didn't buy them.

And... The Cologne Klemperer No.1 has grown on me enough to want the CD edition.

[HR][/HR]
The more I write, the less attention I pay for the Second movement of the No.9 lol




























Time and CDs have also hooked me to the Beethoven Furtwängler performances you can find in the Adromeda lily set. I've had my goes with it and wanted to combine it with particular performances: the Salzburg No.3 (1950) and No.7 & No.8 (1954) and the EMI Bayreuth (1951). I've been confused about the sound quality that the Adromeda set offered compared to the Music and Arts releases, to reach the conclusion that the were just too similar to purchase again the M&A versions. Especially confused with the Titania Palast 1954 No.5 with the BPO. Andromeda, M&A and Audite have three different remasters. M&A sounds much better on spotify than the Andromeda. But the Andromeda CD then gets great quality again.

Then I revisited both the Salzburg 1951 and Vienna 1953 performances of No.9... And I wasn't impressed. More bored with the Salzburg and just a bit disappointed with the Vienna. Maybe sometime in the future I will like again the Lucerne 1954.

I can't wait to meet friends in my hometown and stop researching about stupid things like this. I just feel pity for the people allergic to mono.


----------



## vincula

I've just orderer the Beethoven/Klemperer Memories Reverence set from Protagonista UK. I've owned Klemperer's/EMI complete set on vinyl for ages, but wasn't aware of these live performances at all. They do intrigue me. At 5.90 GBP no one's gonna cry or _launch a Granate_ against me... Even though I got some funny looks from the missus :lol:

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Granate

vincula said:


> At 5.90 GBP no one's gonna cry or _launch a Granate_ against me... Even though I got some funny looks from the missus


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Granate said:


> I just feel pity for the people allergic to mono.


Amen to that! Incredible riches abound for those willing to look beyond the surface (a motto for life in general, really).


----------



## Granate

Granate said:


>


Ok, I'm home and finally got to open this double disc case with the Salzburg Beethoven Symphonies Nos. 3, 7, 8 and the Grosse Fuge. I'm right now comparing the sound quality with the Orfeo official releases. This Archipel 8th sounds really loud, rough, very decent in sound quality, and the playing could be mistaken for a BPO for instance. The Orfeo release has a more even volume balance, cleaning all the edges and showing a more relatable sound to the WPO, although the symphony may lose impact with this remaster approach. Very clean picture in Orfeo. But Im glad that the Archipel 8th can still sound great to my ears.

Not particularly paying attention to the No.7. Slow, well-done, still prefer the Berlin 1953. Notice that in the Archipel edition, the symphony is split in two halves to continue on CD2. The Sound quality of the 1950 Salzburg No.3 is perfectly decent for the time. I don't remember Orfeo being much better at all. I still like that performance over any other Furtwängler Eroica.

And that was my review and check up of the Archipel release of these Beethoven performances. Recommended if you are a completist of Furt's Beethoven.


----------



## Granate

Granate said:


> I opened the Memories case and picked the No.9 to play on my cd player with my headphones. I was startled and confused: I didn't remember to listen to the Klemperer Vienna cycle with this kind of forward and closely miked sound quality. I'm not even sure if the "ambience" is compromised. I tested the same excerpt in the Andromeda, Music & Arts and IDIS release that were available on spotify (they are all different remasters, usually IDIS being the cleanest and loudest one). Neither of them came close to the forwardness of this Memories Reverence set.


I found a rip of the Vienna No.7 with the Memories release and found the other editions so you could compare the SQ between them all.


















If you have the Membran cheap edition marketed with the Kempe Brahms symphonies, you could tell if they sound like any of these editions.










But there is an edition I still don't know about, which is this Altus released in Japan in SACD. And if the Memories were a steal of these Altus, would it be the first time?


----------

