# What's in the modern orchestra?



## chee_zee

Is it the norm to have two flutes and a piccolo or would one of the flutists take up the piccolo in this case? same thing with english horn, is it 2 oboists plus a person on the english horn or is it one of the oboists takes up the english horn, 2 clarinets and a bass clarinet or a clarinetist and another person on the bass clarinet? 2 or 3 people per wind type?


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## soundandfury

For flutes, it rather depends on the piece. If there's not very much piccolo, typically the lead flautist would double on piccolo (or possibly another 1st flautist). However, a decent-sized orchestra will have several 1st flutes and several more 2nd flutes, so you can have piccolo and both flutes all playing at once (you don't have to 'channel-share', as chiptune writers would call it). If there's a large and/or important piccolo part (and the piccolist won't spend all his time counting rests), a separate piccolo section is a possibility.
Cor anglais is much more likely to have a dedicated player, and I've never seen a bass clarinettist doubling from clarinet (though Bb clarinets often double on A clarinet).
One that you didn't ask about (perhaps because it comes up more often in concert bands than orchestras) is trumpet/cornet; it's not unheard of for a trumpeter to double on cornet; piccolo trumpet is almost always doubled from trumpet.

As a composer, if you want to direct the musicians to either case you can do so (eg. a divisi, marked "opt. piccolo", on the 1st flute part). Note however that if you write, say, separate oboe and cor parts, and the orchestra doesn't have a cor, one of the oboists will probably play the cor part on oboe; you should facilitate this by cueing any important solos for the one part on the other.

Note that this is all based on my experience in fairly small, amateur orchestras; YMMV.


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## matsoljare

Bass/soprano clarinet double is fairly common in smaller ensembles, though. Bb and Eb clarinet is more common in large orchestras, i think. Another surprisingly common double is soprano clarinet and alto saxophone....


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## soundandfury

matsoljare said:


> Bass/soprano clarinet double is fairly common in smaller ensembles, though. Bb and Eb clarinet is more common in large orchestras, i think. Another surprisingly common double is soprano clarinet and alto saxophone....


Huh. I've not seen either of those doublings, but I have seen Bb clarinet double on _soprano_ saxophone, which works quite well.


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## Delicious Manager

I managed orchestras for nearly 30 years and this is what happens:

In most symphony orchestras you have 3 of each woodwind on call/staff (some pieces use fewer players of course - and some use more, in which case you draft-in 'extras'). When a piece demands 'triple woodwind' (ie three each in the flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon sections) there are two main scenarios:

Scenario 1) 2 flutes + piccolo, 2 oboes plus cor anglais, 2 Bb or A clarinets plus bass clarinet, 2 bassoons plus contrabassoon
In this scenario there may also be an additional sopranino clarinet in E flat, which might be a fourth plyer, doubled by the 2nd clarinet (most likely) or doubled by the bass clarinettist.
Scenario 2) 3 flutes (3rd [and sometimes 2nd as well] doubling piccolo, 3 oboes (3rd doubling cor anglais), 3 clarinets (3rd doubling bass clarinet [2nd possibly doubling Eb clarinet]), 3 bassoons (3rd doubling contrabassoon)

These scenarios (and other variants of them) are defined by the composer and the requirements of the musical score. Sometimes (but not often) composers can get things wrong and ask for extra players when doubling would do the trick without missing-out any notes). This happens most frequently in percussion sections where some composers might not understand exactly how many percussionists are needed to realise the needs of the music.

Other doublings (or perhaps extra players) that can happen:

Flute - alto flute (in G)
Flute - bass flute (very rare)
Oboe - oboe d'amore (quite rare)
Oboe - bass oboe or Heckelphone (very rare)
Clarinet - contrabass clarinet (very rare)
Horn - Wagner tuba (see Bruckner 7th, 8th & 9th symphonies!)
Trombone - tenor tuba/euphonium (very rare)(actually, what constitutes a 'tenor tuba' varies from country to country)
Trombone - bass trumpet
Bass trombone - contrabass trombone (very rare)


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## PostMinimalist

Contrabass trombone on a stick with valves is usually played by the Tuba player. 'Tosca' for example.
@DM +1
Nice post, extremely informative and clearly written.


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## Delicious Manager

PostMinimalist said:


> Contrabass trombone on a stick with valves is usually played by the Tuba player. 'Tosca' for example.
> @DM +1
> Nice post, extremely informative and clearly written.


This is the solution to the old 'cimbasso' chestnut for Verdi operas. You are correct that this valved contrabass trombone is usually played by the tuba player (who would otherwise be unoccupied), whereas the slide contrabass would be played by a bass trombonist.


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## chee_zee

actually since you've managed orchs for several decades now, I was kinda wondering about large brass sections.....piccolo trumpet, bass trumpet, contrabass tuba, wagner tuba, cimbasso, etc....do these kind of things 'take away' a player or is it like the winds where you can have 2 flutists and a separate piccoloist? I'd hate to write some huge brass section only to never be able to get the piece performed unless I had a zillion dollars.


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## Delicious Manager

By demanding large (and, therefore, EXPENSIVE) sections of the orchestra, you run the risk of pricing your work out of the reach of being performed by many orchestras (especially in these financially difficult times). A normal symphony orchestra will usually have three full-time trumpets (occasionally only two, very rarely four). One of these could be a piccolo player (although trumpeters will decide which instrument to use, depending on what best suits the music - Bb, C, D, Eb instruments). A proper Bb 'piccolo' trumpet an octave above the standard Bb trumpet is a bit specialist - not all trumpeters are equally (or at all) comfortable with playing picc.

Trombones: Symphony orchestras tend to have a section of three (2 tenors, 1 bass). This hardly ever varies unless the music demands it. The first trombonist will often expect to play alto trombone occasionally (eg some Mozart pieces, Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven 5, etc) and perhaps bass trumpet and 'tenor tuba' (the understanding and practice of this varies from country to country), while the bass player MIGHT (but not always) be happy to play contrabass. Only tuba players in opera orchestras will usually have sufficient experience on the cimbasso to be comfortable playing it (if they can find one - they're a rare animal indeed!). All professional tuba players will have several instrument of differing keys, bores and sizes (all written at concert pitch, however) and will choose the one which best suits the nature of the music. A 'contrabass' tuba is the huge one in C and is a standard low tuba which all players would own. This instrument can play off the bottom end of the piano keyboard (up to an octave lower, in fact, depending on how many valves it has and the skill/stamina of the player).

Horns: Most orchestras will have a section of four. Some countries (but not all) use 'bumper' horns (a 5th player who shares the 1st horn part to save the principal's lip if he/she has difficult exposed parts to play). Not all horn players have experience with Wagner tubas. Wagner tubas are only used in large horn sections of 6 to 8 horns, with players 5-8 taking-up Wagner tubas, leaving 1-4 on horn.

My advice would be to stick to a brass section of four horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones and 1 tuba.


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## Aksel

Delicious Manager said:


> Only tuba players in opera orchestras will usually have sufficient experience on the cimbasso to be comfortable playing it (if they can find one - they're a rare animal indeed!).


I can only think of one orchestra in the world that actually uses a cimbasso instead of a tuba, the Norwegian National Broadcasting Orchestra, or KORK. They might do it in some Italian orhcestras too, I guess, but I really haven't seen many around.


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## chee_zee

thanks for the help guys, like I said I'd hate to spend countless hours writing a monster work once I got good enough to do so, and price myself out of playability by doing that. guess the 'ultra mega extreme over the top supremely extravagantly large orchestra' work will have to wait til I win the lottery/get enough credibility to do so. I've just now begun to tinker with the full orchestra as it is, just been doing solo stuff thus far.


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