# Did Karajan conduct Rigoletto?



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The critic Norman Lebrecht, a serial Karajan hater, wrote in the Independent:

'Almost everything Karajan conducted came out super-smooth, like cotton undershirts from a washing conditioner. Whether it was Bach or Bruckner, Rigoletto or Rapsodie Espagnole, the music followed a seamless line of artificial beauty that owed less to the composer's invention than to the conductor's intent on manufacturing a recognisable product.'

Knowing this critic's propensity for using his prodigious imagination in his writing, I was wondering whether it is possible for Lebrecht, who is in his mid-60s, to ever have heard HvK conduct Rigoletto. The only performance I could find he conducted was in Ulm in 1929. As far as I know he never recorded it, which would be a surprise as he recorded most other things. 

So does Lebrecht know something I don't know? Anyone any thoughts?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Opinions like that don't have to be based on facts. I'm listening to the Karajan complete EMI orchestral box, and the typical bias doesn't apply. His Philharmonia recordings are vivid and spirited. Many desert island performances in here.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I suppose it's possible in theory that von Karajan conducted _Rigoletto_ at some point during the 1950s and '60s, when he was Intendant at the Vienna State Opera. But I'm also unaware of any recordings.


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## alfpianista (Feb 2, 2013)

I like this Forum!! Thank!!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I suppose it's possible in theory that von Karajan conducted _Rigoletto_ at some point during the 1950s and '60s, when he was Intendant at the Vienna State Opera. But I'm also unaware of any recordings.


I think the fore it is extremely unlikely Lebrecht has heard Karajan conduct Rigoletto. So much for his judgment, then. If a critic is to be taken seriously he should speak at last from knowledge and experience.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Opinions like that don't have to be based on facts. I'm listening to the Karajan complete EMI orchestral box, and the typical bias doesn't apply. His Philharmonia recordings are vivid and spirited. Many desert island performances in here.


"Kobbe bullocks they say are massaged daily so that their muscles ,when consumed ,may be of even consistency,flawless,without trace of fiber or gristle .Karajan has kneaded the sound of his players until it has a similar texture,firm yet succulent.the Berlin Philharmonic playing is like Kobbe beef,a luxury product.the metaphors customarily used of it are mechanical,not culinary,and even the Carnegie Hall program book praised the conductor as ' the artistic prototype of our technology -oriented century and its worship of perfection'. Karajan always gives the audience a smooth ride. in the two Brahms symphonies that made up his first program,all of the bumps were ironed out. the machine started at a touch and the cushioned serene program began--over hill,over dale ,now fast,now slow,all gradients effortlessly mounted,plentiful power in reserve,never a jarring gear shift ,smooth brakes,perfect road holding.And no direct feeling ,you might say, of the road traveled that's what was wrong. For Toscanini,,for Szell,the Fourth symphony was a struggle .so it is today for say Haitink. when Furtwaegler conducted it,it became a new adventure --for him,for his players and the audience. In Karajan's performance ,the music never took one by surprise ,astonishments were limited to to the nonesuch instrumental sound,the Berliners' playing was technically easy-osy ."

"Music Of Three Seasons"--Andrew Porter.
Andrew Porter was editor of the Musical Times,music critic for the London Times .the Financial times, the Daily Telegraph. He was invited over to New York to write for the New Yorker for a number of seasons.
He was not an enemy of Karajan as far as i know.
I would just add that I bought the Beethoven Symphony box of the 1960's and after two attempts gave up because of the type of thing noted above, this is not the way Beethoven should sound.
Having said that the Philharmonia recordings were a different kettle of fish .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> "Kobbe bullocks they say are massaged daily so that their muscles ,when consumed ,may be of even consistency,flawless,without trace of fiber or gristle .Karajan has kneaded the sound of his players until it has a similar texture,firm yet succulent.the Berlin Philharmonic playing is like Kobbe beef,a luxury product.the metaphors customarily used of it are mechanical,not culinary,and even the Carnegie Hall program book praised the conductor as ' the artistic prototype of our technology -oriented century and its worship of perfection'. Karajan always gives the audience a smooth ride. in the two Brahms symphonies that made up his first program,all of the bumps were ironed out. the machine started at a touch and the cushioned serene program began--over hill,over dale ,now fast,now slow,all gradients effortlessly mounted,plentiful power in reserve,never a jarring gear shift ,smooth brakes,perfect road holding.And no direct feeling ,you might say, of the road traveled that's what was wrong. For Toscanini,,for Szell,the Fourth symphony was a struggle .so it is today for say Haitink. when Furtwaegler conducted it,it became a new adventure --for him,for his players and the audience. In Karajan's performance ,the music never took one by surprise ,astonishments were limited to to the nonesuch instrumental sound,the Berliners' playing was technically easy-osy ."
> 
> "Music Of Three Seasons"--Andrew Porter.
> Andrew Porter was editor of the Musical Times,music critic for the London Times .the Financial times, the Daily Telegraph. He was invited over to New York to write for the New Yorker for a number of seasons.
> ...


Ah those critics. Like reading holy writ. Porter, was, of course, infallible in his opinions. Let's face it, critics often write such things because they want to make a name for themselves.

Interesting that I have the 62 set of Beethoven and I find just the opposite to what by say. So just how should Beethoven sound?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Opinions like that don't have to be based on facts. I'm listening to the Karajan complete EMI orchestral box, and the typical bias doesn't apply. His Philharmonia recordings are vivid and spirited. Many desert island performances in here.


I was flabbergasted by the ferocity and spontaneity of his 1952 Bayreuth Tristan recording. His decline was a great loss for the world of music. It's hard to recall another case of the sharp decline of a conductor at so young--in conductor years--an age, unmotivated by physical ailments and the encroachment of death.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Ah those critics. Like reading holy writ. Porter, was, of course, infallible in his opinions. Let's face it, critics often write such things because they want to make a name for themselves.
> 
> Interesting that I have the 62 set of Beethoven and I find just the opposite to what by say. So just how should Beethoven sound?


Andrew Porter was /is one of the most respected critics ever, so don't lower yourself by making ridiculous comments,he certainly didn't need to make a name for himself !! Did you bother reading his credentials ,It is not interesting that you would like Karajan---no bite and no character,just shiny chomium plate ,it impresses the inexperieced.
I prefer George Szell and Carl Schuricht among others, Beethoven shopuld be fairly rugged in my opinion.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> I was flabbergasted by the ferocity and spontaneity of his 1952 Bayreuth Tristan recording. His decline was a great loss for the world of music. It's hard to recall another case of the sharp decline of a conductor at so young--in conductor years--an age, unmotivated by physical ailments and the encroachment of death.


I'm glad to see you back, I was wondering where you were.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> I was flabbergasted by the ferocity and spontaneity of his 1952 Bayreuth Tristan recording. His decline was a great loss for the world of music. It's hard to recall another case of the sharp decline of a conductor at so young--in conductor years--an age, unmotivated by physical ailments and the encroachment of death.


A fierce imagination, this "decline".


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> A fierce imagination, this "decline".


Yes,I thought he had an all skiing all rushing about,jumping up and down life style. He developed some heart problem late and had a back operation but he was 81 when he died.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

DavidA said:


> So does Lebrecht know something I don't know? Anyone any thoughts?


To invoke the spirit of a quote from a prominent 20th century American statesman, it's not that Lebrecht _doesn't_ know so much, it's that he knows so much that _isn't so._


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> To invoke the spirit of a quote from a prominent 20th century American statesman, it's not that Lebrecht _doesn't_ know so much, it's that he knows so much that _isn't so._


I agree from what I've seen of him,but his remarks on Karajan are uncannily similar to Andrew Porter's who has no similarity to Lebrecht by any degree whatever.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

DavidA said:


> The critic Norman Lebrecht, a serial Karajan hater, wrote in the Independent:
> 
> 'Almost everything Karajan conducted came out super-smooth, like cotton undershirts from a washing conditioner. Whether it was Bach or Bruckner, Rigoletto or Rapsodie Espagnole, the music followed a seamless line of artificial beauty that owed less to the composer's invention than to the conductor's intent on manufacturing a recognisable product.'
> 
> ...


I read Lebrecht's bile filled article the other day; he's had it in for Karajan and many others for years so there was little new he was actually saying, but on the subject of Rigoletto, no, no trace of any recording (or a concert performance) except some extracts from that opera on a compilation CD.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Perhaps he was judging just by the prelude. It seems strange such forensic criticism is aimed at Lebrecht's remark when it simply means he thinks Karajan all sounds the same. Whether that is the case or not is another matter but treating it as some earnest truth that Lebrecht thinks an opera can sound like a rhapsody is an odd reading.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Andrew Porter was /is one of the most respected critics ever, so don't lower yourself by making ridiculous comments,he certainly didn't need to make a name for himself !! Did you bother reading his credentials ,It is not interesting that you would like Karajan---no bite and no character,just shiny chomium plate ,it impresses the inexperieced.
> I prefer George Szell and Carl Schuricht among others, Beethoven shopuld be fairly rugged in my opinion.


In case you hadn't realised, Karajan was one of the most celebrated and respected CONDUCTORS of the last century. He wasn't just a critic he was a practitioner. Your faith in the critics is touching. However, critics tend to say different things for different reasons. It is surely more ridiculous to make derogatory comments about a great conductor than to make comments about critics who often end up disagreeing among themselves anyway. Whereas Porter wrote about music Karajan actually was actually a expert practitioner.
So it is absolutely ridiculpous of you to comment like you do about Karajan's 62 Beethoven symphonies which was reckoned by the critics - yes, your beloved critics - to be one of the finest ever made.. 'It impresses the inexperienced' - what a plonker of a statement! By the time Karajan recorded those symphonies he was a highly experienced conductor who had learned his trade from the bottom up, so please don't make yourself look foolish by such pompous statements. It's all well and good quoting critics who suite your own opinion but you need to realise there are other critics who take the opposite point of view. If you read the reviews of the Karajan performance of the Brahms 1 which was recorded live at the RFH you find that other critics took a very different view from Porter.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> In case you hadn't realised, Karajan was one of the most celebrated and respected CONDUCTORS of the last century. He wasn't just a critic he was a practitioner. Your faith in the critics is touching. However, critics tend to say different things for different reasons. It is surely more ridiculous to make derogatory comments about a great conductor than to make comments about critics who often end up disagreeing among themselves anyway. Whereas Porter wrote about music Karajan actually was actually a expert practitioner.
> So it is absolutely ridiculpous of you to comment like you do about Karajan's 62 Beethoven symphonies which was reckoned by the critics - yes, your beloved critics - to be one of the finest ever made.. 'It impresses the inexperienced' - what a plonker of a statement! By the time Karajan recorded those symphonies he was a highly experienced conductor who had learned his trade from the bottom up, so please don't make yourself look foolish by such pompous statements. It's all well and good quoting critics who suite your own opinion but you need to realise there are other critics who take the opposite point of view. If you read the reviews of the Karajan performance of the Brahms 1 which was recorded live at the RFH you find that other critics took a very different view from Porter.


Karajan was certainly famous,notorious even,but among many others I was not impressed by him and I have seen the greatest.Don't you really know how much the musical world has always been divided about the man,if not you are very naive..
I had faith in certain critics and used to read the great ones but they've all gone now.
Your ridiculous choice of words such as derogatory is laughable,what do you think we are discussing here some sort of god ,
obviously to you he is .
if your comments are to be taken at face value all conductors must therefore be experts and right in what they do, how come they seem to disagree among themselve as to the way to perform composers?
You are of course wrong in your assessment of Karajan ,there are many critics ,musicians and other conductors who have no time for him.It was Gardiner who said there was something evil about him.
The Andrew Porter quotation was a follow-up to Lebrecht's comments and you might notice that there are many similarities --or would you ?
Now try to understand this ,I will say exactly what I wish as long as it's within the rules here whenever i wish to say it.

Well.while we are at it here's another critic for you : "At the moment there are still signs that he has not wholly abandoned the mistaken idea beloved by so many second-raters that an infusion of a dose of ginger into a fairly rapid movement constitutes ' a brilliant interpretation'. Nor does he seem to realise that the more sensitive listener deeply resents the breaking of the composer's spell by a conductor who wants to demostrate the fact that he enjoys complete domination over every man in the orchestra. So irritating does this become that one almost prefers the system sometimes used in former days of putting a man in front waving a stick while the orchestra plays as it wishes."Gallery Of Conductors by Henry Brook.

Perhaps you should read the poll Karajan--hero or hype. You will see what I mean.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Karajan was certainly famous,notorious even,but among many others I was not impressed by him and I have seen the greatest.Don't you really know how much the musical world has always been divided about the man,if not you are very naive..
> I had faith in certain critics and used to read the great ones but they've all gone now.
> Your ridiculous choice of words such as derogatory is laughable,what do you think we are discussing here some sort of god ,
> obviously to you he is .
> ...


You know, dear friend, here are we, both older men and lovers of music, arguing like a pair of kids, thinking our opinion matters.

I tell you what - why don't we just shake hands and agree to differ. And next time discuss something we agree on?

The best to you, dear sir!

Enjoy what you are listening to and I will do the same.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> You know, dear friend, here are we, both older men and lovers of music, arguing like a pair of kids, thinking our opinion matters.
> 
> I tell you what - why don't we just shake hands and agree to differ. And next time discuss something we agree on?
> 
> ...


Fair enough,but discussing something we both agree on would be terribly boring.
The secret is that people may well disagree, but should handle it in a civilized manner by trying to prove their points with evidence.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Fair enough,but discussing something we both agree on would be terribly boring.
> The secret is that people may well disagree, but should handle it in a civilized manner by trying to prove their points with evidence.


Ah now! That's something we agree on, at least!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

moody said:


> Karajan was certainly famous,notorious even,but among many others I was not impressed by him and I have seen the greatest.Don't you really know how much the musical world has always been divided about the man,if not you are very naive.


Of course the musical world was divided on Stokowski too.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> Of course the musical world was divided on Stokowski too.


Oh absolutely. I have read many critics who were vehement in their denunciation of dear old Stookey!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I love what Laurence Sterne (1713–1768) wrote: ‘Of all the cants which are canted in this canting world, though the cant of hypocrites may be the worst, the cant of criticism is the most tormenting!’


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Of course the musical world was divided on Stokowski too.


It was not long ago that we had to fight a fierce battle on his behalf.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

no record of him conducting Rigoletto.
Karajan was great in some things, some not. 
like most conductors.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Actually Karajan was pretty good at conducting a lot of things. One problem he had was that he was almost too successful which meant critics and others tended to set him higher standards. Added to which there are people who hate success, especially by a man like Karajan. John Culshaw summed him up as 'Ruthless and unpredictable' which was probably right. Not the man to get the wrong side of. Mind you, that's something he shared in common with an awful lot of conductors.


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