# Mahler Quoting Other Composers



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Mahler has dozens and dozens of quotes of other composers and himself in his music. What are some notable ones that I should listen for?

This thread was inspired by my recent listening to Brahms Symphony No. 2- I noticed that a certain minor motif in the middle of the fourth movement is the exact same as the "Dawn" Theme at the beginning of Mahler's 1rst symphony.

The link, beginning at around 4:30, in the woodwind theme above the string murmuring, appearing more obviously at around 5:13, is what I'm mainly noting.






Was this, and other quotes, on purpose?


----------



## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I couldn't say, but he famously quotes the first two notes of the Scherzo of Beethoven's Ninth as the last two notes of his First.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Two notes, a quote? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

I noticed many years ago the resemblance between the opening of the Mahler First Symphony and the Brahms Second. Sometimes it's hard to know whether a composer is consciously quoting another, but this is at least pretty close. There are some resemblances in Mahler to passages in Bruckner, and anyone interested in the genesis of Mahler's style should listen to the symphony of Hans Rott, Mahler's friend and classmate. If you know Mahler's symphonies, especially the earlier ones, listening to Rott's work will make your jaw drop a few times. Remember that Rott wrote those bits first, and died before he could sue for plagiarism!


----------



## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Quite true. Just imagine a universe with both Rott and Mahler working at the same time!


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Two notes, a quote? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?...


In light of the other references to Beethoven's Ninth that occur throughout Mahler's First, I think that it makes sense to refer to a two-note quotation. The structure of Mahler's First, particularly in the last movement, is indebted to the way in which Beethoven's finale recapitulates - and then rejects - the themes from the preceding movements. The beginning of the first movement resembles Beethoven's Ninth as well, with its ambiguous harmonies that gradually take tonal shape. Through his allusions to these aspects of the Ninth, Mahler primes the listener to be alert to any melodic allusions that might occur as well.


----------



## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Um...yeah. That. (See thread on Are You an Expert at Classical Music?, and watch me deflate).


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Totenfeier said:


> Um...yeah. That. (See thread on Are You an Expert at Classical Music?, and watch me deflate).


Thanks for your kind words, but please don't deflate! Your observation prompted me to think of Mahler's First in a new way, and that's how I was able to articulate the points that I made in my post. (Actually, though, I'm sure that someone will come along and disagree with everything that I said in my post :lol:...)

Edit: Yes, that did indeed happen!:lol: But that's one of the things that I love about TC: we encourage each other to explain, defend, and refine our ideas more clearly.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> In light of the other references to Beethoven's Ninth that occur throughout Mahler's First, I think that it makes sense to refer to a two-note quotation. The structure of Mahler's First, particularly in the last movement, is indebted to the way in which Beethoven's finale recapitulates - and then rejects - the themes from the preceding last movement. The beginning of the first movement resembles Beethoven's Ninth as well, with its ambiguous harmonies that gradually take tonal shape. Through his allusions to these aspects of the Ninth, Mahler primes the listener to be alert to any melodic allusions that might occur as well.


I hear no significant resemblances between these two works. Is there any documentary evidence for it? The opening of Beethoven's 9th is nothing but the materialization of the principal theme of the movement, and is really quite direct and brief. The opening of Mahler's 1st is an elaborate, programmatic portrait of nature awakening, and it goes on for four minutes before we hear the main theme of the movement, a theme which hasn't even been hinted at in the introduction beyond the interval of a fourth (a simple unifying device also heard in the theme of the second movement). And what in Mahler's 1st is "indebted" to Beethoven's device of recapitulating and rejecting his previous three movements? Mahler does nothing like that, does he (except for a passage in the last movement that's a reminiscence of "dawn")?

The distinctive features of Beethoven's scherzo are the octave drop, the snapping rhythm, and the repetition of it at the dominant. If Mahler had intended a quote, he would have had to include at least the rhythmic feature to distinguish it from, say, the octave drop of the "oath" leitmotif in _Gotterdammerung_, a work which actually contains an extended musical dawn sequence!

I'm very leery of "quotations" among composers consisting of generalized and minor resemblances. There are many to be found throughout the history of music, and I suspect most are either unintentional reminiscences or coincidences.

I'm curious where Tchaikov6 read that there are "dozens and dozens of quotes of other composers and himself" in Mahler's works. He does use some of his own songs in his symphonies. What else?


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Halévy's _Juive_ - of which Mahler said: "I am absolutely overwhelmed by this wonderful, majestic work. I regard it as one of the greatest operas ever created."



> He was almost certainly recalling the instrumental introduction to Éléazar's Act IV aria when he wrote a parodistic Jewish melody for a pair of oboes in his First Symphony. I also wonder whether the savage five-note up-and-down figure that recurs in several of the symphonies-notably, in the funereal brass melody at the beginning of the Third and in the stormy second movement of the Fifth-might be traced back to the music of Cardinal Brogni's "anathema," which the composer rehearsed so thoroughly in 1903. Finally, and most strangely, the choral exclamation "Bereite dich!"-"Prepare yourself! Prepare to live!"-in the Second Symphony is copied note for note from the chorus "Au pécheur, Dieu," in Act V, in which the Christians pray for the Jews to be pardoned for their sins.


Source: Alex Ross, "A Ray of Death", _New Yorker_, 24 Nov 2003 (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/11/24/a-ray-of-death)


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I noticed many years ago the resemblance between the opening of the Mahler First Symphony and the Brahms Second.


In this case, the Brahms came first by about ten years. The passages you're speaking of are just too similar to be coincidence, even though the Brahms is a passing episode and the Mahler seems more integral to the music. Very odd, that!


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I hear no significant resemblances between these two works. Is there any documentary evidence for it? The opening of Beethoven's 9th is nothing but the materialization of the principal theme of the movement, and is really quite direct and brief. The opening of Mahler's 1st is an elaborate, programmatic portrait of nature awakening, and it goes on for four minutes before we hear the main theme of the movement, a theme which hasn't even been hinted at in the introduction beyond the interval of a fourth (a simple unifying device also heard in the theme of the second movement). And what in Mahler's 1st is "indebted" to Beethoven's device of recapitulating and rejecting his previous three movements? Mahler does nothing like that, does he?
> 
> The distinctive features of Beethoven's scherzo are the octave drop, the snapping rhythm, and the repetition of it at the dominant. If Mahler had intended a quote, he would have had to include at least the rhythmic feature to distinguish it from, say, the octave drop of the "oath" leitmotif in _Gotterdammerung_, a work which actually contains an extended musical dawn sequence!
> 
> ...


I'm not aware of any documents, in the form of sketches or letters, which provide evidence for Mahler's allusions to Beethoven's Ninth. However, a number of musicologists have argued that these allusions do exist, and their evidence comes primarily from the music itself. For instance, on page 189 of this book, Julian Johnson (building on the work of Mark Evan Bonds) observes parallels between Mahler's Symphonies - including the First - and Beethoven's Ninth.https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...nepage&q=mahler first beethoven ninth&f=false Johnson argues that these parallels were intentional and should be heard as deliberate allusions.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> I'm not aware of any documents, in the form of sketches or letters, which provide evidence for Mahler's allusions to Beethoven's Ninth. However, a number of musicologists have argued that these allusions do exist, and their evidence comes primarily from the music itself. For instance, on page 189 of this book, Julian Johnson (building on the work of Mark Evan Bonds) observes parallels between Mahler's Symphonies - including the First - and Beethoven's Ninth.https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...nepage&q=mahler first beethoven ninth&f=false Johnson argues that these parallels were intentional and should be heard as deliberate allusions.


The "parallels" he mentions seem to me little more than wishful thinking by someone with a thesis to write. He actually thinks that Mahler's title for the fourth movement of his 1st, "From Hell to Heaven," has a precedent in Beethoven's 9th specifically? Really? Has he failed to notice that the dynamic of triumph after struggle runs through the entire Romantic movement? Mahler could just as well have been modeling his work on Tchaikovsky's 5th. And here's an obvious question: Why, if Mahler is quoting the 9th at the end of his 1st, would he pick the scherzo to quote?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

(Deleted) ......................................


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> The "parallels" he mentions seem to me little more than wishful thinking by someone with a thesis to write. He actually thinks that Mahler's title for the fourth movement of his 1st, "From Hell to Heaven," has a precedent in Beethoven's 9th specifically? Really? Has he failed to notice that the dynamic of triumph after struggle runs through the entire Romantic movement? Mahler could just as well have been modeling his work on Tchaikovsky's 5th. And here's an obvious question: Why, if Mahler is quoting the 9th at the end of his 1st, would he pick the scherzo to quote?


I found something that might count as (circumstantial) evidence: when discussing the first movement of his Symphony No. 1, Mahler said that his "boisterous ending" referred to Beethoven breaking into loud laughter and running away. See pg. 36: https://books.google.com/books?id=8...nepage&q=mahler beethoven " laughter"&f=false

To be sure, none of this proves that the last movement concludes with a reference to Beethoven's Scherzo. But Mahler's remarks do suggest that Beethoven's witty "scherzando" mode was on his mind as he composed Symphony No. 1, particularly with regard to the end of the first movement. It seems plausible that Mahler might similarly have evoked Beethovenian laughter at the end of the _last _movement.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> I found something that might count as (circumstantial) evidence: when discussing the first movement of his Symphony No. 1, Mahler said that his "boisterous ending" referred to Beethoven breaking into loud laughter and running away. See pg. 36: https://books.google.com/books?id=8...nepage&q=mahler beethoven " laughter"&f=false
> 
> To be sure, none of this proves that the last movement concludes with a reference to Beethoven's Scherzo. But Mahler's remarks do suggest that Beethoven's witty "scherzando" mode was on his mind as he composed Symphony No. 1, particularly with regard to the end of the first movement. It seems plausible that Mahler might similarly have evoked Beethovenian laughter at the end of the _last _movement.


Cleverly built case, though there isn't enough evidence to convict.

When do you begin law school?


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Cleverly built case, though there isn't enough evidence to convict.
> 
> When do you begin law school?


Thanks for the compliment!  So far my only clients are dead composers.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Two notes, a quote? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?


If memory serves, the first two notes of the scherzo to Beethoven's 9th are a falling octave. If that's a Beethoven "signature" then the whole composing world should be sued for copying him!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bettina said:


> Thanks for the compliment!  So far my only clients are dead composers.


Be sure to get your fee in advance.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> If memory serves, the first two notes of the scherzo to Beethoven's 9th are a falling octave. If that's a Beethoven "signature" then the whole composing world should be sued for copying him!


Much closer to Beethoven's 9th than Mahler's odd little ending is the scherzo of Dvorak's 9th. Now there's a reference I can believe in.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I remember reading a library score of Mahler 1 on which, in a particular part of the finale, someone had helpfully pencilled the words "And He shall reign for ever and ever".


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> *I hear no significant resemblances between these two works.* Is there any documentary evidence for it? The opening of Beethoven's 9th is nothing but the materialization of the principal theme of the movement, and is really quite direct and brief. The opening of Mahler's 1st is an elaborate, programmatic portrait of nature awakening, and it goes on for four minutes before we hear the main theme of the movement, a theme which hasn't even been hinted at in the introduction beyond the interval of a fourth (a simple unifying device also heard in the theme of the second movement). And what in Mahler's 1st is "indebted" to Beethoven's device of recapitulating and rejecting his previous three movements? Mahler does nothing like that, does he (except for a passage in the last movement that's a reminiscence of "dawn")?
> 
> The distinctive features of Beethoven's scherzo are the octave drop, the snapping rhythm, and the repetition of it at the dominant. If Mahler had intended a quote, he would have had to include at least the rhythmic feature to distinguish it from, say, the octave drop of the "oath" leitmotif in _Gotterdammerung_, a work which actually contains an extended musical dawn sequence!
> 
> ...


Me, neither.


----------



## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

The 4th movement of Mahler's 9th begins very much like the 3rd movement of Bruckner's 9th. I asked Mahlerian once if this was intentional, he being one of the big Mahler aficionados, and he said it's up in the air. I do wonder if Mahler ended his 9th with the slow movement instead of the rondo 3rd because of how powerfully Bruckner's 9th ends (unintentionally and in its truncated form, of course).

Here's a controversial opinion: I think Mahler should have ended his 9th with the rondo-burleske.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I hear no significant resemblances between these two works. Is there any documentary evidence for it? The opening of Beethoven's 9th is nothing but the materialization of the principal theme of the movement, and is really quite direct and brief. The opening of Mahler's 1st is an elaborate, programmatic portrait of nature awakening, and it goes on for four minutes before we hear the main theme of the movement, a theme which hasn't even been hinted at in the introduction beyond the interval of a fourth (a simple unifying device also heard in the theme of the second movement). And what in Mahler's 1st is "indebted" to Beethoven's device of recapitulating and rejecting his previous three movements? Mahler does nothing like that, does he (except for a passage in the last movement that's a reminiscence of "dawn")?
> 
> The distinctive features of Beethoven's scherzo are the octave drop, the snapping rhythm, and the repetition of it at the dominant. If Mahler had intended a quote, he would have had to include at least the rhythmic feature to distinguish it from, say, the octave drop of the "oath" leitmotif in _Gotterdammerung_, a work which actually contains an extended musical dawn sequence!
> 
> ...


Mostly they've mentioned in the one biography of Mahler I have- one of the Naxos Composers series. Each "walk-through" of the symphonies includes main themes, and the book notes that pieces such as Beethoven's _Fidelio_, Wagner's _Die Meistersinger_, and several Schubert Landler are quoted throughout Mahler's symphonies.

I guess I shouldn't make the assumption that all the quotations the book notes are used on purpose by Mahler- perhaps we are overthinking it and it is merely a coincidence.

As for the Beethoven 9, Mvt. 2 "Quote," I would have to agree that it must be a coincidence. As mentioned, Dvorak 9 Scherzo has obvious resemblance, but I don't think Mahler Titan was intended to imitate Beethoven's ninth...


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Mahler's 3rd opens with a modified version of the main theme from the finale of Brahms's 4th. Same rhythmic contour, but some altered notes.

I noticed this when I first heard the Mahler, many years ago, and was gratified just now to see that Wikipedia says I'm right.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

amfortas said:


> Mahler's 3rd opens with a modified version of the main theme from the finale of *Brahms's 4th*. Same rhythmic contour, but some altered notes.
> 
> I noticed this when I first heard the Mahler, many years ago, and was gratified just now to see that Wikipedia says I'm right.


Do you mean the first?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

bz3 said:


> The 4th movement of Mahler's 9th begins very much like the 3rd movement of Bruckner's 9th. I asked Mahlerian once if this was intentional, he being one of the big Mahler aficionados, and he said it's up in the air. I do wonder if Mahler ended his 9th with the slow movement instead of the rondo 3rd because of how powerfully Bruckner's 9th ends (unintentionally and in its truncated form, of course).


The upward-reaching string unison in both traces its ancestry back farther. Here's Wagner's _Faust Overture_ from 1840 (the motif is heard at 0:36): 




Like the Bruckner 9th's third movement, and obviously ancestral to it, the opening of the _Tristan _prelude is an ascending string unison followed by chromatic harmonies: 




Before Wagner came Weber's _Der Freischutz_: 




Mahler's 10th also begins with strings in unison, and its main melody starts with the upward reach of an octave.

Hard to say whether these composers were referring intentionally to each other, but all of them knew their predecessors' works intimately.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Do you mean the first?


Yes, I do, thank you. So NOW Wikipedia says I'm right.

Wish they would get their story straight.


----------



## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

I always thought there's a small quote of Ode to Joy in the 1st movement of the 1st symphony. Lingering here and there, not as bold as the quote in Brahms 1st., but still. I actually have a conspiracy theory that such quote exists in many many 1st symphonies. I'm working on proof, working on it!


----------



## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

I've always heard similarities between the opening of Brahms' 3rd symphony and the main theme of Mahler's 6th (1st movement). Am I alone in this?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

techniquest said:


> I've always heard similarities between the opening of Brahms' 3rd symphony and the main theme of Mahler's 6th (1st movement). Am I alone in this?


There is a melodic resemblance, but I doubt there was any influence. The spirit is quite different.


----------



## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

O.K., so I went back to the Rott symphony with a keener ear, and it seems Mahler did indeed do some plundering, at least of the scherzo, storing some of the booty in his 2nd and some in his 5th.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Re Rott and Mahler's 2nd: I'm not so sure of that. From what i remember reading, Mahler didn't study Rott's symphony until around the time he was writing his 5th


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Re Rott and Mahler's 2nd: I'm not so sure of that. From what i remember reading, Mahler didn't study Rott's symphony until around the time he was writing his 5th


Huh. Now you've got me curious. I haven't listened to the Rott in several years, but I do seem to remember distinct resemblances to symphonies before the 5th. A good excuse to hear it again.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Didn't Mahler quote Die Meistersinger somewhere (I think it was the 1st)?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Posting on the Bruckner vs. Mahler thread reminded me of an indisputable instance of Mahler quoting Wagner. He uses a bit from _Parsifal_ in _Das Lied von der Erde_: Gurnemanz's phrase in Act 3, "Der Lenz ist da," becomes the melody on which Mahler's tenor sings "Und Lenz ist da" in _Das Lied. _ I saw an interview with some conductor who said that Mahler had marked his personal copy of the score of _Parsifal_ where that phrase occurs.

I must say that I've also noticed, since I first heard _Das Lied_ back around 1970, a resemblance in both melodic material and mood between the mournful orchestral interlude in the last song of _Das Lied_ and the agonized and funereal orchestral interlude in _Parsifal_'s third act. When Mahler first saw Wagner's opera as a young man, he said, "I understood that the greatest and most painful revelation had just been made to me, and that I would carry it unspoiled for the rest of my life." That prediction seems borne out by _Das Lied von der Erde._


----------



## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Two notes, a quote? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?
> 
> I noticed many years ago the resemblance between the opening of the Mahler First Symphony and the Brahms Second. Sometimes it's hard to know whether a composer is consciously quoting another, but this is at least pretty close. There are some resemblances in Mahler to passages in Bruckner, and anyone interested in the genesis of Mahler's style should listen to the symphony of Hans Rott, Mahler's friend and classmate. If you know Mahler's symphonies, especially the earlier ones, listening to Rott's work will make your jaw drop a few times. Remember that Rott wrote those bits first, and died before he could sue for plagiarism!


Not sure I agree. I consider the 1st symphony of Rott one of the best symphonies ever written. But nothing in Mahlers' symphonies that would resemble plagiarism from Rott.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Nevum said:


> Not sure I agree. I consider the 1st symphony of Rott one of the best symphonies ever written. But nothing in Mahlers' symphonies that would resemble plagiarism from Rott.


It's been a while, but I remember being struck by a few pretty strong resemblances. I'll re-listen to the Rott and get back to you.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ Mission accomplished! Rott's symphony is full of unmistakable premonitions of Mahler, along with reminiscences of Bruckner and Wagner. But it's somehow very individual too. It's a bit unwieldy structurally - Rott was only 20 - but often extraordinarily fresh and beautiful. 

I'm sure that Mahler knew this work early on, as I hear hints of all the Mahler symphonies up to the Fifth, and the scherzo is virtually a study for the scherzo of Mahler's own First. Mahler had great personal affection as well as artistic admiration for Rott and wrote heartfelt tributes to him in his correspondence, but curiously never made an effort to conduct his symphony or get it performed; it had to wait until 1989 for its premiere. Could Mahler have been afraid to let the public in on the extent of his indebtedness to an unknown composer?


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

This is quoted, as by Mahler himself on Rott, on a website:

. . . a musician of genius ... who died unrecognized and in want on the very threshold of his career. ... What music has lost in him cannot be estimated. Such is the height to which his genius soars in ... [his] Symphony [in E major], which he wrote as 20-year-old youth and makes him ... the Founder of the New Symphony as I see it. To be sure, what he wanted is not quite what he achieved. … But I know where he aims. Indeed, he is so near to my inmost self that he and I seem to me like two fruits from the same tree which the same soil has produced and the same air nourished. He could have meant infinitely much to me and perhaps the two of us would have well-nigh exhausted the content of new time which was breaking out for music.

https://muswrite.blogspot.com/2013/12/rott-symphony-no-1-in-e-major.html

Various websites seem to quote at least part of this, without giving the original source.


----------



## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ Mission accomplished! Rott's symphony is full of unmistakable premonitions of Mahler, along with reminiscences of Bruckner and Wagner. But it's somehow very individual too. It's a bit unwieldy structurally - Rott was only 20 - but often extraordinarily fresh and beautiful.
> 
> I'm sure that Mahler knew this work early on, as I hear hints of all the Mahler symphonies up to the Fifth, and the scherzo is virtually a study for the scherzo of Mahler's own First. Mahler had great personal affection as well as artistic admiration for Rott and wrote heartfelt tributes to him in his correspondence, but curiously never made an effort to conduct his symphony or get it performed; it had to wait until 1989 for its premiere. Could Mahler have been afraid to let the public in on the extent of his indebtedness to an unknown composer?


This might in part be the response to your question, from Mahler himself:

"It is completely impossible to estimate what music has lost in him. His genius soars to such heights even in his first symphony, written at the age of twenty, and which makes him - without exaggeration - the founder of the new symphony as I understand it. *He, however, did not reach entirely what he wanted. It is as if someone swings back to throw as far as he can and, still clumsy, does not quite hit the goal.*" 
(Gustav Mahler in Nathalie Bauer-Lechner's reminiscences).


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jdec said:


> This might in part be the response to your question, from Mahler himself:
> 
> "It is completely impossible to estimate what music has lost in him. His genius soars to such heights even in his first symphony, written at the age of twenty, and which makes him - without exaggeration - the founder of the new symphony as I understand it. *He, however, did not reach entirely what he wanted. It is as if someone swings back to throw as far as he can and, still clumsy, does not quite hit the goal.*"
> (Gustav Mahler in Nathalie Bauer-Lechner's reminiscences).


Hmmm... That _could_ explain it.


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

jdec said:


> . . . (Gustav Mahler in Nathalie Bauer-Lechner's reminiscences).


That is presumably the original source for the larger block that I quoted. (It is mentioned in the booklet for Rott's Symphony, on Hyperion, but, again, not the source.)


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

It would have been interesting to know what would have happened if Rott had lived longer, and without the trouble of his final years. Would he and Mahler indeed have been collaborators, or rivals?


----------



## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

JAS said:


> It would have been interesting to know what would have happened if Rott had lived longer, and without the trouble of his final years. Would he and Mahler indeed have been collaborators, or rivals?


It is simple. Rott would have been as big as Mahler, Bruckner and, I dare to say, Wagner. He was undoubtedly a musical genius. His symphony is one of the top symphonies ever in the history of classical music, in my opinion.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> I remember reading a library score of Mahler 1 on which, in a particular part of the finale, someone had helpfully pencilled the words "And He shall reign for ever and ever".


That quote is much more obvious in the Agnua Dei of the Missa Solemnis.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Nevum said:


> It is simple. Rott would have been as big as Mahler, Bruckner and, I dare to say, Wagner. He was undoubtedly a musical genius. His symphony is one of the top symphonies ever in the history of classical music, in my opinion.


Whoa Nellie! A great, original talent, yes - but there's no way to predict how a composer will develop.


----------



## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Whoa Nellie! A great, original talent, yes - but there's no way to predict how a composer will develop.


This is not a prediction. It is a speculation.


----------



## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Nevum said:


> It is simple. Rott would have been as big as Mahler, Bruckner and, I dare to say, Wagner. He was undoubtedly a musical genius. His symphony is one of the top symphonies ever in the history of classical music, in my opinion.


One of the top 100-200 symphonies ever? yes, definitely I agree.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Nevum said:


> This is not a prediction. It is a speculation.


Hmmm. "Would have been" is prediction in hindsight. "Might have been" is speculation. Either way, we can't know how a composer will develop, or what his reputation eventually will be.

However, Wagner was 5'5', Mahler 5"4", and Bruckner somewhere in that area (little men, big works?), so Rott might indeed have been bigger than any of them.


----------



## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ Mission accomplished! Rott's symphony is full of unmistakable premonitions of Mahler, along with reminiscences of Bruckner and Wagner. But it's somehow very individual too. It's a bit unwieldy structurally - Rott was only 20 - but often extraordinarily fresh and beautiful.
> 
> I'm sure that Mahler knew this work early on, as I hear hints of all the Mahler symphonies up to the Fifth, and the scherzo is virtually a study for the scherzo of Mahler's own First. Mahler had great personal affection as well as artistic admiration for Rott and wrote heartfelt tributes to him in his correspondence, but curiously never made an effort to conduct his symphony or get it performed; it had to wait until 1989 for its premiere. Could Mahler have been afraid to let the public in on the extent of his indebtedness to an unknown composer?


For me it's obvous that Mahler studied Rott symphony (and also string quartet, check it out too!) with passion. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## KermitderFrosch (Dec 2, 2018)

*Totally agree*



Tchaikov6 said:


> Mahler has dozens and dozens of quotes of other composers and himself in his music. What are some notable ones that I should listen for?
> 
> This thread was inspired by my recent listening to Brahms Symphony No. 2- I noticed that a certain minor motif in the middle of the fourth movement is the exact same as the "Dawn" Theme at the beginning of Mahler's 1rst symphony.
> 
> ...


I've ever noticed the same. And there are not only two notes, but four, in the same sequence, the same intervals, played with same tempo. (Sorry about my bad english, it's not my mother tongue, but the resemblance is overwhelming IMO.)


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Totenfeier said:


> Quite true. Just imagine a universe with both Rott and Mahler working at the same time!


A dystopia for sure.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Compare the suspenseful opening of the Mahler First with the suspenseful opening of the Beethoven Fourth. I find the similarities unmistakable. I hear no similarity of opening with the Brahms Second... I do not go along with the idea that Mahler had “dozens and dozens of quotes” from other composers. But there are some references to others because he conducted them. And of course, he was deeply impressed by Hans Rott. It’s too bad that Rott went to the famously tactless Brahms for support & approval, which was not forthcoming. What a mistake that was and it contributed to Rott’s mental instability and depression. But I don’t consider Mahler a blatant plagiarist, and there was something natural about his references to others. I believe they were simply passages that he loved and it was primarily stream of conscious. He hardly had trouble coming up with his own material. I do believe that he would sometimes model after others. But he seemed to take everything to a much higher level.


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Totenfeier said:


> he famously quotes the first two notes of the Scherzo of Beethoven's Ninth as the last two notes of his First.


right on, but that "na-ah" motif had been first quoted by Wagner in Gottersdammerung, as Siegfried insists he did not touch Brunhilde and did deposit his sword between them instead in a knightly fashion.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> right on, but that "na-ah" motif had been first quoted by Wagner in Gottersdammerung, as Siegfried insists he did not touch Brunhilde and did deposit his sword between them instead in a knightly fashion.


And then of course there's the scherzo of Dvorak's "New World" Symphony conspicuously ripping off the scherzo of Beethoven's Ninth.

I'd say that that one is the only actual reference to Beethoven. The Wagner motif is just a typically incisive Wagnerian dramatic gesture, and the idea that an octave drop at the end of Mahler's First is a reference to anything at all is absurd. I think Mahler was just looking for a way out of a trite ending after all that bluster.


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> the idea that an octave drop at the end of Mahler's First is a reference to anything at all is absurd.


a reference to Eternal Return - absurd? Swastika is absurd? Beethoven, Wagner and Mahler were in it together, whats absurd about that?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> Compare the suspenseful opening of the Mahler First with the suspenseful opening of the Beethoven Fourth. I find the similarities unmistakable. I hear no similarity of opening with the Brahms Second...


The opening of Mahler's 1st closely reflects a passage in the _finale _of Brahms' 2nd, written IIRC a decade earlier. The passage is about 4:42 in the Chailly recording.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> a reference to Eternal Return - absurd? Swastika is absurd? Beethoven, Wagner and Mahler were in it together, whats absurd about that?


What eternal return? What swastika? In _what_ together? What are you talking about?


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> What eternal return?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return



Woodduck said:


> What swastika?


that which is in the music of part II from Beethoven 9th.



Woodduck said:


> What are you talking about?


of Mahler quoting others, obviously.


----------



## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I think Mahler was just looking for a way out of a trite ending after *all that bluster*.


"All that bluster"? hope this is not supposed to be pejorative (again with Mahler). Those final minutes sound heroically fine to my ears.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
> 
> that which is in the music of part II from Beethoven 9th.
> 
> of Mahler quoting others, obviously.


This is all just talk. There is no evidence that either Mahler or Wagner quoted Beethoven with a simple octave drop, and nothing about the works in question that would make doing so sensible.


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> This is all just talk.


no, this is an investigation.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jdec said:


> "All that bluster"? hope this is not supposed to be pejorative (again with Mahler). Those final minutes sound heroically fine to my ears.


Heroically fine they may be. Some people find that final gesture, a sort of "double downbeat," odd; I for one do, as it's a distinctive figure which has no precedent in the material of the movement. I suspect its oddity must account for the strange need some apparently have to see it as a quote from the scherzo of Beethoven's 9th. But Mahler's work doesn't resemble the Beethoven in any substantial way, and a reference to it is not meaningful.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> no, this is an investigation.


You're not investigating anything.


----------



## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Heroically fine they may be. Some people find that final gesture, a sort of "double downbeat," odd; I for one do, as it's a distinctive figure which has no precedent in the material of the movement. I suspect its oddity must account for the strange need some apparently have to see it as a quote from the scherzo of Beethoven's 9th. But Mahler's work doesn't resemble the Beethoven in any substantial way, and a reference to it is not meaningful.


I thought that with "_all that bluster_" you meant the previous music to those final 2 notes.


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Mahler's work doesn't resemble the Beethoven in any substantial way


the talk is not about resemblance but *quoting* in order to continue with imparting the initial message.


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I definitely think there's something fishy about them all using the same 12 tones of the musical scale. Very coincidental I don't think!

Zhdanov, get out your magnifying glass and investigate!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jdec said:


> I thought that with "_all that bluster_" you meant the previous music to those final 2 notes.


I did. It's quite a blustery movement. Pretty good bluster, on the whole. But the ending is strange.


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Zhdanov, get out your magnifying glass and investigate!


and i do, already have results, posted on here, one page back.


----------

