# Wagner vs Berlioz



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Two of the most intensely beautiful love-scene settings from two legendary dramas.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Berlioz. Wagner just copied him for the entire Opera. Strange that because one if french and the other is german we cannot say one borrowed pretty much everything and made it his own and bask in the glory when it should have been the other but he did not have a german name.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Well, Wagner sent Berlioz the score to Tristan in gratitude. And the greatness of Wagner is not in just coming up with nice themes a la Berlioz, but his ability to meditate on them, and tease them out into magnificence across a cohesive 4-hour work.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> And the greatness of Wagner is not in just coming up with nice themes a la Berlioz, but his ability to meditate on them


True, especially when you consider Berlioz frankly wasn't really that remarkable a harmonist compared to Wagner:
"Berlioz's compositional techniques have been strongly criticised and equally strongly defended. It is common ground for critics and defenders that his approach to harmony and musical structure conforms to no established rules; his detractors ascribe this to ignorance, and his proponents to independent-minded adventurousness." (wikipedia)
"It is perhaps not surprising that the music of Berlioz, that most atypical of Frenchmen, was held in low regard. While praising his innovative orchestral technique, Ravel often found his harmony clumsy, and once observed that Berlioz was "a genius who couldn't harmonize a waltz correctly."" (Ravel: Man and Musician, By Arbie Orenstein, Page 123)


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I group Berlioz with CPE Bach and Shostakovitch, people whose music I find just a tad "schizophrenic". Absolutely chalk-full of great creative ideas, but a touch disconnected and not always strung together in the most cohesive manner.


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## ZeR0 (Apr 7, 2020)

Absolutely the Wagner. I mean nothing negative to Berlioz either, as he was very good too. But some of the stuff in Wagner's operas just seems to be from another universe, it is so emotionally and intellectually affecting (to me at least). It touches my soul in a way so few other music can. Many moments (including the one in this poll) from Tristan und Isolde do this.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Definitely Berlioz here. The Scene d'amour from Romeo and Juliet my be my favourite piece of music by any composer. So achingly beautiful.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Machiavel said:


> Berlioz. Wagner just copied him for the entire Opera. Strange that because one if french and the other is german we cannot say one borrowed pretty much everything and made it his own and bask in the glory when it should have been the other but he did not have a german name.


Well, this is complete nonsense. A couple of thematic resemblances - call them tributes, as Wagner was an admirer - is just about the extent of it. Wagner sent Berlioz a copy of the prelude to _Tristan._ Berlioz found it baffling. Wagner basks in "the glory" because _Tristan_ is a monumental and groundbreaking achievement about which books can be, and have been, and will be, written. A German name wouldn't have transformed _Romeo,_ beautiful though it is, into something as significant. The two works have had more than enough time to make their respective marks.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Beautiful as the music of Faure/Debussy/Ravel/Satie et. al is, it is a little bit of a shame that Berlioz's countrymen did not pick up Berlioz's mantle the same way the Germans picked up Beethoven's. What could have been...


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Berlioz: Roméo et Juliette: Scène d’amour/ Wagner: Tristan und Isolde: Liebesnacht
I like them both equal :angel:


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## TalkingPie (May 15, 2020)

Wagner would be awesome if he wasn't such a megalomaniac and wanted to write his own librettos. Some of the platitudes the characters sing make me cringe. 

Also, I think his operas should be much succint, a lot of the dramatic action is unnecessary and a lot of the recitatives could be left out, Tristan's music is sublime, but the musical substance of the 4-hour opera could be reduced in 1 hour or even less.

His only standard only opera with "normal" proportions is IMO the Flying Dutchman. The story is hillariously naïve, but the action is on point, succint.

Just before he died he said he was planning to write symphonies, that'd have been a goldmine. Wish he had live more.

Also, grab your pitchforks wagnerites!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

TalkingPie said:


> Wagner would be awesome if he wasn't such a megalomaniac and wanted to write his own librettos. Some of the platitudes the characters sing make me cringe.
> 
> Also, I think his operas should be much succint, a lot of the dramatic action is unnecessary and a lot of the recitatives could be left out, Tristan's music is sublime, but the musical substance of the 4-hour opera could be reduced in 1 hour or even less.
> 
> ...


You experience something in a 1-hour long mediation that you don't get from a 10-minute one. Such is Wagner.

The Prelude-Love Duet-Liebestod is a popular reduction of Tristan, but a completely different experience from receiving the full opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> You experience something in a 1-hour long mediation that you don't get from a 10-minute one. Such is Wagner.
> 
> The Prelude-Love Duet-Liebestod is a popular reduction of Tristan, but a completely different experience from receiving the full opera.


Indeed. The size of Wagner's works is part of their essence. The scaling of Everest takes time. Those who prefer day hikes will always have Puccini.


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