# Your favorite classical music orchestra?



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Hello TC community,

As a less advanced classical music audience, I would like to ask you for your best classical orchestra. Sometimes I can't tell out the difference between orchestras very much, so please introduce me your best orchestras and explain why they are your favorite. For example, which era of classical music is your favorite orchestra best at? Which composer does that orchestra like to perform the most? What is the strongest part of that orchestra (such as strings, winds, brass, etc). I am looking forward to listening to your opinions!

KevinW


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and I have an enormous amount of hometown affection for the Cleveland Orchestra. The first concert of any kind that I ever attended was a Cleveland Orchestra concert in July 2008, and to date I've heard them live 40 times in all sorts of repertoire. So it's my favorite because it's the one I grew up with and the one I'm most familiar with. Sorry I can't be more analytical about it.

The Cleveland Orchestra became famous under its fourth music director George Szell, mainly for their recordings of the central European classics: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Dvořák, R. Strauss. Then they began a long association with Pierre Boulez, who is credited with "teaching" the orchestra more modern repertoire: Stravinsky, Debussy, Messiaen, the second Viennese school, etc. So there's a pretty long tradition of doing all of that stuff at a very high level.

An example of something that there's less of a tradition in is Mahler. They recorded a little with Szell, a little with Boulez, and a bit more with their seventh music director Christoph von Dohnányi (whose discography with the orchestra has been criminally mistreated by Decca), but I don't think any of those recordings appear near the top of anyone's lists. And in all my years of concert-going, Mahler featured relatively seldom.

Nowadays, a big claim to fame for the orchestra has been, oddly enough, opera. Under their current music director Franz Welser-Möst, they've done a lot of staged and semi-staged opera productions that have traveled and been very successful. Dvořák's _Rusalka_ and Janáček's _The Cunning Little Vixen_ have probably been the most notable.

Here is a baker's dozen of personal favorite recordings. These are by no means "the best" according to any critical consensus.


 Beethoven - Piano Concerto No. 4 (Fleisher, Szell; Sony)
 Brahms - Double Concerto (Oistrakh, Rostropovich, Szell; Warner)
 Debussy - La mer (Boulez; DG)
 Hindemith - Symphonic Metamorphosis (Szell; Sony)
 Kodály - Háry János Suite (Szell; Sony)
 Mussorgsky - Pictures at an Exhibition (Szell; Sony)
 Prokofiev - Cinderella (Ashkenazy; Decca)
 Rachmaninoff - Paganini Rhapsody (Fleisher, Szell; Sony)
 Rimsky-Korsakov - Capriccio Espagnol (Szell; Sony)
 Schoenberg - Piano Concerto (Uchida, Boulez; Decca)
 Schubert - Great C major symphony (Szell; Sony)
 R. Strauss - Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche (Dohnányi; Decca)
 Stravinsky - The Fairy's Kiss (Knussen; DG)

PS. I thought this was very enjoyable if you haven't already seen it:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Orchestras change over time. Some, like Vienna and Cleveland, manage to hold onto a special sound and style over the years. The Chicago Symphony of Reiner's era is long gone as is Solti's. Muti dismantled Ormandy's Philadelphia orchestra; they might be more flexible than before, but their unique sound is a distant memory. Same story with Berlin. The sounds we might cherish on recordings isn't what you hear live these days as personnel and conductors change rapidly. In the past decade though, the ones I've really enjoyed hearing are Pittsburgh and Dallas. The former has a horn section second to none, beautifully balanced winds with a full tone, gutsy strings and a powerful, rich sound top to bottom. As great as their recordings sound, hearing them live in Heinz Hall is something else! Dallas has a virtuosity and balance that I really appreciate and a clarity of tone I like. Needless to say, both play with a virtuosity that is amazing. I really like Detroit, too, America's greatest French orchestra.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Thanks － I will do more research on the orchestras like Cleveland, Philadelphia, Pittsburg and especially Dallas, which I not often hear of.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

KevinW said:


> Thanks － I will do more research on the orchestras like Cleveland, Philadelphia, Pittsburg and especially Dallas, which I not often hear of.


Once we are over the worst of the COVID pandemic (unfortunately it looks like it will be with us for many years) consider going to some live performances by the Chicago Symphony, if that is in fact where you currently live.

From a recording perspective I am partial to the Berlin Philharmonic and the London Symphony Orchestra, but that is due their recordings with conductors I like and a deep library of recordings made over the years. The Cleveland Orchestra, and the Boston Symphony (BSO) are also great. I do also consider the Boston Symphony to be one of my three "local bands" although I live at the other end of the state, the other two being regional orchestras. Pre-COVID I would attend some of the BSO's summer concerts in Tanglewood, with the occasional weekend ventures into Boston the rest of the year.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

The Cleveland Orchestra


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I prefer any HIP/PI orchestra instead of the big modern version, for all orchestral music.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

The Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, Concertgebouw of Amsterdam; the London Symphony; and London Philharmonic Orchestra are top of the line; Rolls Royce...

Here in America, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is pretty close to world class. I like the New York Philharmonic for the "swing" that the Leonard Bernstein of Broadway fame brought to them. The Boston Symphony is also very solid. The previous posters who talked about Eugene Ormandy's "Philadelphia sound" and George Szell's very clean and efficient Cleveland Orchestra make good points as the American orchestras from the Golden Age of Classical Recordings (1955?-1985?) featured conductors such as Koussevitzky, Munch, Bernstein, Riener, Toscanini, Ormandy, Szell, and Solti who were allowed to rule with a free hand, build, and mold the orchestra to their own musical vision; as opposed to now when the great conductors play musical chairs with orchestras. 

I also like routing for some lesser known orchestras that aren't as flawless as the big names. The Iceland Symphony Orchestras made some good Sibelius recordings for NAXOS. Poland's Warsaw Sinfonia founded by Sir Yehudi Menuhin is a nice little orchestra from a much oppressed and war-torn little country. The Beethoven and Schubert cycles that Menuhin recorded with the Warsaw Sinfonia are quite nice. Gustavo "The Dude" Dudemel's Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela can hold their own in Mahler and Beethoven even against he best of them. And Maurice Abravanel brought old Vienna to the heart of the American West and Mormon Country, with one of the first complete Mahler cycles that he recorded with the Utah Symphony Orchestra. The Utah Symphony also made a solid English translation of Brahms' "German Requiem" with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

haziz said:


> Once we are over the worst of the COVID pandemic (unfortunately it looks like it will be with us for many years) consider going to some live performances by the Chicago Symphony, if that is in fact where you currently live.
> 
> From a recording perspective I am partial to the Berlin Philharmonic and the London Symphony Orchestra, but that is due their recordings with conductors I like and a deep library of recordings made over the years. The Cleveland Orchestra, and the Boston Symphony (BSO) are also great. I do also consider the Boston Symphony to be one of my three "local bands" although I live at the other end of the state, the other two being regional orchestras. Pre-COVID I would attend some of the BSO's summer concerts in Tanglewood, with the occasional weekend ventures into Boston the rest of the year.


Yes, I live in the suburbs of Chicago and am able to travel to the CSO. However, I do not like listening to CSO concerts that much, because I like Baroque and Classical more. Berliner Philharmoniker will be better because it performs Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

KevinW said:


> Hello TC community,
> 
> As a less advanced classical music audience, I would like to ask you for your best classical orchestra. Sometimes I can't tell out the difference between orchestras very much, so please introduce me your best orchestras and explain why they are your favorite. For example, which era of classical music is your favorite orchestra best at? Which composer does that orchestra like to perform the most? What is the strongest part of that orchestra (such as strings, winds, brass, etc). I am looking forward to listening to your opinions!
> 
> KevinW


Academy of St Martin in the Fields because of their fresh sounding in their performances
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra because their performances sound so powerful


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm pretty happy with quality of my hometown orchestra, the LA Phil.

It has been one of the best in the world for decades. It always makes top 10 lists. And it always has among the best conductors. Zubin Mehta, Essa-Pekka Salonen, and now, Gustavo Dudamel.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

The Czech Philharmonic. Saw a lot of them when I lived out there. They're not bad!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

CnC Bartok said:


> The Czech Philharmonic. Saw a lot of them when I lived out there. They're not bad!


I love the CzechPO....some wonderful players....the woodwinds have a unique woody, "nutty" tone quality....they play so expressively.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Yeah and Czech PO is the orchestra that brought me the first live orchestra performance in my life. Back to that time in 2015 (or 2016, I can’t remember), they performed in a Chinese national new year’s concert in Beijing. I wasn’t a fan of classical and completely had no idea what they performed, though. I was only 10 at that time.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I am not familiar with every orchestra but two of my favorites are Philadelphia and Berlin.

One can find lists of the top orchestras by doing a search.

Links to some good lists:

https://ledgernote.com/blog/interesting/best-orchestras-in-the-world/

According to this list the National Symphony, which is the local orchestra for me, is #10. Under its current director, Gianandrea Noseda, the orchestra has dramatically improved. The problem is with the current board of the Kennedy Center. They want to turn it into a main street pop venue. They have already driven out the National Ballet. And this season, other than the National, there is no major symphony orchestra scheduled to perform there.

https://www.theinternationalman.com/symphony-orchestras.php

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-features/best-orchestras-worlds-greatest-top-10/

https://www.artsculturetheater.com/worlds-best-10-symphony-orchestras-in-classical-music/

https://www.classical-music.com/features/articles/worlds-best-orchestras/

https://bachtrack.com/world-top-20-orchestras

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/the-world-s-greatest-orchestras

The one aspect I have learned about the current state of orchestras are that the best ones are very international in make-up. For example, there are musicians from over twenty countries in Berlin. The principal bassoonist for the Royal Concertgebou is from Uraguay.

Also, there are many women in orchestras. I saw Chicago just before the pandemic and all of the percussionists were women.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I will stick up for the local folks in the Seattle Symphony here - and their own-label releases include top-of-the-heap quality recordings of Ives, Dutilleux, and Mahler.

Back in the day, they were also a popular orchestra for Naxos Records.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

fbjim said:


> Back in the day, they were also a popular orchestra for Naxos Records.


The Schwarz/Seattle survey of American symphonic works was very good..originally they were released on Denon, iirc...then re-released on Naxos..
Seattle got into trouble with the American Federation of Musicians, because these recordings were made under scale set by the union. I disagree with the union, they've priced American orchestras out of recording jobs...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Simon Moon said:


> I'm pretty happy with quality of my hometown orchestra, the LA Phil.


LAPO has been really fine for many years...Chicago and NYPO had traditionally been the highest paid orchestras...however, in recent years, it became Chicago, LAPO and SFSO that have the highest scales (pre-covid, that is, the pandemic made hash of existing contracts)


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

I like the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, but someone mentioned to me several weeks ago that it was light in the string section. I am a little confused about this statement. Maybe it was a post-pandemic thing, I forgot to ask him.

Does anyone here believe that to be true?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

It's hard to say...as someone already pointed out, the orchestra you heard and loved in a 50-year-old recording may be totally different now. I like the Berlin cello section.  The Chicago brass used to be awe-inspiring. In all honesty I don't that much about how those orchestras sound *now*. When I was a *lot* younger I used to listen to public radio broadcasts of the NYP, the Cleveland Orchestra and the Chicago Symphony, which was still at that time in the Solti era. I haven't listened to those orchestras in that way for a very long time now, unfortunately.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Obviously orchestras change over time based on conductors, musicians, community, etc.

I tend to find my favorites are Vienna, London, New York, Czech, and Royal Liverpool, but all the ensembles mentioned already are marvelous. It's a lot like choosing a wine, everyone's taste is slightly different and you have to sample a lot to find your favorites.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

As far as the number of great recordings in my collection go, Berlin Philharmonic and London Symphony Orchestra are in the lead. I've only heard one or two bad recordings/performances from each out of hundreds.

After that the next few best would be Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Vienna Philharmonic, The English Concert and Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

FrankinUsa said:


> The Cleveland Orchestra


tantalizing that the Cleveland Orchestra does not record more as of late. They are still in a good shape, despite all those decades since Szell's departure.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I'm certainly NOT going to choose between the Royal Concertgebouw, New York Philharmonic, Wiener Philharmoniker, Berliner Philharmoniker, London SO, London PO, The Philharmonia, Czech Philharmonic, Chicago SO, Budapest Festival Orchestra, Helsinki Philharmonic, Danish National SO, et. al. They have all turned in stellar work in repertoire that is special _to them_.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Without a doubt: The Portsmouth Sinfonia


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Budapest Festival Orchestra, as I'm a season ticket holder.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

John Zito said:


> I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and I have an enormous amount of hometown affection for the Cleveland Orchestra. The first concert of any kind that I ever attended was a Cleveland Orchestra concert in July 2008, and to date I've heard them live 40 times in all sorts of repertoire. So it's my favorite because it's the one I grew up with and the one I'm most familiar with. Sorry I can't be more analytical about it.
> 
> The Cleveland Orchestra became famous under its fourth music director George Szell, mainly for their recordings of the central European classics: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Dvořák, R. Strauss. Then they began a long association with Pierre Boulez, who is credited with "teaching" the orchestra more modern repertoire: Stravinsky, Debussy, Messiaen, the second Viennese school, etc. So there's a pretty long tradition of doing all of that stuff at a very high level.
> 
> ...


I bought the Szell mega-box, so I am obviously a big fan. But I would have included works by Mozart and Haydn Amon my favorites.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

perempe said:


> Budapest Festival Orchestra, as I'm a season ticket holder.


Lucky sod.

(did "sod" get past the mods?)


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

LPO. 

Simply because I've enjoyed their playing more than any other. 

I'm sure there are great American, German and possibly even French orchestras, but it means a late night, especially when you've got work the next day.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Philadelphia Orchestra. I grew up about 30-40 minutes away and they were the closest thing to being my hometown orchestra. Playing at The Academy of Music on Broad Street, I saw them during the Muti era in the '80's, but I knew about them as a child because Eugene Ormandy was a living legend in the area. The big, lush strings contributed to an intoxicating sound that pulled me in to a brand new world of artistic expression.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

perempe said:


> Budapest Festival Orchestra, as I'm a season ticket holder.


I've missed them on tour TWICE because of ice storms.

For recordings I have always liked Chicago and Cleveland. I zip back and forth between Montreal and Boston for concerts. I have heard plenty of other orchestras though. I really loved Pittsburgh. Amsterdam was awesome back when Jansons was there. The German orchestras of Berlin and Bavarian Radio are freaking HUGE. And my vote for best little city orchestra is Glens Falls NY.

My favorite locked out orchestra is Springfield MA. One of the top regional orchestras in NE. I hope they can get everything settled.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I am no longer interested in what is the greatest whatever lists. There are just too many greatest whatevers out there.

In an earlier post I mentioned several greatest orchestra lists.

Many have mentioned fine orchestras that do not appear on any of these lists.

Three fine American orchestras that have not been mentioned are Buffalo, Baltimore and Virginia Symphonies (I saw a live performance of the Mahler Eighth with Virginia).

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Montreal.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> I am no longer interested in what is the greatest whatever lists. There are just too many greatest whatevers out there.
> 
> In an earlier post I mentioned several greatest orchestra lists.
> 
> ...


I just mentioned Montreal. They made it back to the list of world's best orchestras by Gramophone. I haven''t been there since the pandemic because of the strict requirements to travel. It's a bummer!

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/featur...amophone-s-orchestra-of-the-year-2021-nominee


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

I guess Vienna Philharmoinc has been consistent over decades.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Besides BPO, VPO, RCO, LSO and ChicagoSO, I would say a lot of German Orchestras have some reference recordings, including Staatskapelle Dresden, MunchnerPO, NDR, Bayerischer Rundfunk etc. The best orchestra I've watched live is BPO.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Pyotr said:


> I like the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, but someone mentioned to me several weeks ago that it was light in the string section. I am a little confused about this statement. Maybe it was a post-pandemic thing, I forgot to ask him.
> 
> Does anyone here believe that to be true?


This does not make any sense to me. I am not a string player but their string section sounds OK to me.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Today it was definitely the Staatskapelle Dresden. Blown away by Schumann 3 Sawallisch.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

arpeggio said:


> This does not make any sense to me. I am not a string player but their string section sounds OK to me.


Vienna Philharmonic is probably best at strings.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Ned Low said:


> I guess Vienna Philharmoinc has been consistent over decades.


I think you are right, It would be my overall winner with the R.C.O Amsterdam right behind ,


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I always presume the old label Philips has gotten the best artists and I think it is still true.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

I've not yet developed a set of, "Favourite", orchestras but the ones I find myself enjoying listening to the most are:

- Chamber Orchestra of Europe
- Giardino Armonico
- Freiburger Barockorchester


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

An easy one for me---Amsterdam (Royal) Concertgebouw and Berlin Philharmonic


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I love these guys:


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I love these guys:


Classic vid. :lol:

‐-------


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

Coach G said:


> The previous posters who talked about Eugene Ormandy's "Philadelphia sound" and George Szell's very clean and efficient Cleveland Orchestra make good points as the American orchestras from the Golden Age of Classical Recordings (1955?-1985?) featured conductors such as Koussevitzky, Munch, Bernstein, Riener, Toscanini, Ormandy, Szell, and Solti who were allowed to rule with a free hand, build, and mold the orchestra to their own musical vision; as opposed to now when the great conductors play musical chairs with orchestras.


I am highlighting Coach G's point here because it's important to associate quality with specific linkages of orchestra + conductor/music director. Also in some cases, a conductor's particular approach to a given composer or even a specific work. Lots of room for variation in quality and desirability there.

Nevertheless, these days the level of quality worldwide is pleasantly amazing to me. Even if it's not the "perfect" rendition/recording, I'm finding that even previously obscure orchestras and emerging conductors can render quite competent performances. I've been pleased by works performed by "obscure" orchestras from New Zealand and Australia to the Balkans and Baltics, as well as previously insignificant or neglected U.S. and UK orchestras.


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Seattle got into trouble with the American Federation of Musicians, because these recordings were made under scale set by the union.


Hmmm ... Disturbing info. I haven't been aware of labor strife in the Seattle symphony. You'd think that with mega-billion-dollar corporations like Boeing, Amazon, and Costco in the region, Seattle could help adequately subsidize the city's world-class orchestra.


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## Nipper (Jun 5, 2020)

I've long been a fan of the sound of Staatskapelle Dresden, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and the London Symphony Orchestra. From recent recordings, I'm loving the sound in Pittsburgh under Honeck.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Nawdry said:


> Hmmm ... Disturbing info. I haven't been aware of labor strife in the Seattle symphony. You'd think that with mega-billion-dollar corporations like Boeing, Amazon, and Costco in the region, Seattle could help adequately subsidize the city's world-class orchestra.


This was some time ago...the issue was that the Seattle SO made the recordings below the recording scales set by the AF of M. These scales are very high, so the big recording companies stopped recording in America...the union priced its musicians out of the market.. it's great to have high pay scales, but if no one is willing to pay it, then you have everyone unemployed albeit at top scale!!
Schwarz and Seattle made a special deal at lower scale with Denon to make their excellent series of American music recordings...the union took action to stop them...
The conflict was between the Seattle musicians and the national union, not with the SSO management.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

The Cleveland Orchestra has been a victim of the meltdown of the classical recording industry that began in the 1990’s as the recording companies were recorded waaay too many orchestras and rereleasing the classic recordings of the past. There was such a huge over-saturation that the CD bins literally bucked under the weight of all the CD’s and the classical music industry/labels just crashed within a very short period of time Just recently,Cleveland started their own label as have many other orchestras. As for the classical labels,there was consolidation and they are still finding their way. It’s my opinion but you just don’t see the quantity of releases from all the BIG orchestras. It’s unbelievable how many releases of second-tier orchestras are being released. The saving grace is that the quality of players of second/third tier orchestras have increased so dramatically that there may not be such a loss of quality. Another problem is that many of the BIG orchestras just become too expensive to record and sort of shot themselves in the foot. There is also the question of the market-ability of the music directors. That’s why Philadelphia(Nezet-Seguin) and LAPO(Dudamel) still get a fair amount of major label recordings. Because their MD’s are highly marketable. I should add BSO with Andris Nelsons. In terms of Cleveland Franz Welser-Most is just not marketable and he is still living down his days at the London Philharmonic where he gained the moniker,Franz Slightly Worst Than Most although I think he had become a very fine conductor. Chicago and New York,once both powerhouses are rarely recorded. Then there is the question of who REALLY is financing recordings from the major labels. Today’s classical labels(UMG-Decca/DG,Warner(which bought EMI and promptly dumped a once illustrious name,SonyClassical(who knows what they are doing) are all pale imitations of the past. The classical recording industry/labels are just so completely different from the heyday of the labels.

This was an answer to a previously post inquiring why the Cleveland Orchestra is not releasing a lot of recordings. I thought I linked it to that comment but apparently I did something wrong.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

The current trend which I like is self-published recordings. It's nice since I know a good deal of my money is supporting my orchestra specifically, and not Deutsche Grammophon/Universal, Sony, or whatever, not that I specifically have anything against those companies. Modern orchestras sound fine enough that recordings from Seattle, or Chicago, or New York are going to be to an excellent standard.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It's true, many of the large orchestras are releasing recordings on their own labels...
The major labels have largely ceased activities, at least relative to past endeavors.
I remember Klaus Heymann (Naxos chief) said in an interview that he would love to record with great American orchestras, but the costs are too prohibitive...he simply couldn't make up the costs, so he went to Europe Russia, and the Pacific rim to record with cheaper orchestras...many of these ensembles are quite good, some are decidedly sub-standard...
For myself, i wish that the AF of M would cut their recording scales, and get American orchestras back on the recording market, but I'm afraid that won't happen.


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## HantsDave (5 mo ago)

Hello, I'm thinking that you will find this of interest. I haven't listened to the records yet, but they appear to be in good condition. Regards, David.


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