# The Bach Cantatas thread



## violadude

Bach's Cantatas are a huge and amazing body of works. I've been listening to a lot of them recently ever since I got this set: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Masterpieces-Cantatas-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B003647BUE

I mostly ordered this set for the bigger pieces in the box, Matthew and John Passion, the Mass and the Christmas Oratorio. I knew the Cantatas were going to be great, but even with my high expectations of them, they've been blowing my mind lately. So many outstanding gems in here and I don't think the Cantatas get enough attention, as so much time is allocated to talking about Bach's instrumental work.

So what are your favorite cantatas? What do you like about them? Ya know, all that rigmarole.

One of my favorites so far has been Cantata #94 Was Frag Ich Nach Der Weit: 




Cantata #83 has a great solo violin part running through the movements and so far I've found it to be one of the most rhythmically interesting of the cantatas:


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## schigolch

Well, I do think that the cantatas are indeed much talked about, and loved my many, many people. Myself included. 

There are so many wonderful passages, that is nearly impossible to choose a few among them. Just to mention one, I would select this splendid first movement from BWV 23, with the amazing doble duet between the two oboes and the two singers:


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## joen_cph

Yes, lots of great works. Am also exploring the series, but wonder if I´ll ever finish with them.

The secular cantatas must be mentioned; 
my favourite so far is the very theatrical *Coffee Cantata B211*.

Rilling´s recording and the Collegium Aureum/Ameling/Nimsgern recording are both good, whereas the Brilliant Classics one with Schreier is unusually devoid of humour.


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## violadude

schigolch said:


> Well, I do think that the cantatas are indeed much talked about, and loved my many, many people. Myself included.
> 
> There are so many wonderful passages, that is nearly impossible to choose a few among them. Just to mention one, I would select this splendid first movement from BWV 23, with the amazing doble duet between the two oboes and the two singers:


Great example! Loved it. Thanks! The set I got doesn't have that one, unfortunately.


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## jenspen

violadude said:


> Bach's Cantatas are a huge and amazing body of works. I've been listening to a lot of them recently ever since I got this set: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Masterpieces-Cantatas-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B003647BUE
> 
> I mostly ordered this set for the bigger pieces in the box, Matthew and John Passion, the Mass and the Christmas Oratorio. I knew the Cantatas were going to be great, but even with my high expectations of them, they've been blowing my mind lately. So many outstanding gems in here and I don't think the Cantatas get enough attention, as so much time is allocated to talking about Bach's instrumental work.


I couldn't agree more. A gold mine (with some less interesting ore here and there between the rich veins). I've got them all but haven't listened carefully to more than half of them so far. I've tried to tame the collections with a spreadsheet but the abundance of brilliance and beauty has defeated my best efforts. Things I love? The lyricism, the interweaving of instruments, the interweaving of voices, the dance rhythms, the dazzling solo playing (when Bach had a good soloist available), the thrills, the intensity of feeling, the charm, the freshness and, obviously, the variety. That's off the top of my head.

You inspired me to pick out and play a CD at random from my collection (thank you) and I think it contains good examples of Bach's art in this genre:

Erschallet ihr Lieder BWV 172
Also hat Gott die Welt Geliebt BWV 68
Wie Schön Leuchtet der Morgenstern BWV1

All the choral parts on the CD were sung by Bach's own (800+ year old choir), Der Thomanerchor. A less Historically Informed Performance than many - and that's another thing, he sounds good to my ears either way.


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## tdc

Good thread idea, some of my favorites are BWV 29, BWV 82, BWV 198, and BWV 199. I listened to most of them some time ago. I have all of them on the Brilliant Classics complete edition, plus alternate recordings of some of the others. Lately I've been spending so much time on other areas of Bach's vast oeuvre (and other composers) that unfortunately I've been neglecting getting to know more of these works in detail.

The only "problem" with these Cantatas is there are so many, and the works so rich and detailed it generally takes more than one listening to fully absorb one, never mind 200+! Truly an astonishing body of work.

Maybe someone should organize a weekly Cantata listening session, similar to the symphonies being done in the orchestral forum? (Unfortunately, I couldn't guarantee I'd be able to participate in every one).


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## Pugg

schigolch said:


> Well, I do think that the cantatas are indeed much talked about, and loved my many, many people. Myself included.
> 
> There are so many wonderful passages, that is nearly impossible to choose a few among them. Just to mention one, I would select this splendid first movement from BWV 23, with the amazing doble duet between the two oboes and the two singers:


I am surprised by the low numbers of posters, over here in my county we have whole site's dedicated to Bach cantatas.


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## Muse Wanderer

I have several sets of Bach's cantatas but have yet to listen to all the cantatas. I am taking my time as every single cantata is exceptional. I find it mind boggling that someone can enjoy JS Bach but omits the cantatas from his listening habit. The cantatas are the golden focal point of dear old Sebastian.

I highly recommend the Suzuki cantata cycle, It has perfect sound reproduction, outstanding orchestra, wonderful conductor with very good vocalists. Suzuki has a bright sound as he uses A=460Hz pitch. This enables his female sopranos to shine like no other. The details are further enhanced with a lot of treble energy. Suzuki also works his way chronologically, which works best for my OCD. It is addictive and I can't get enough of it.

Gardiner is another outstanding set to have. It is a bit warmer and more emotional at times than Suzuki. It is also based on the liturgical year which is nice

Rilling is not bad but the modern instrumentation is tiring and the vocalists are too operatic at times.

Leusink's Brilliant classic set is a no-go in my opinion. It is too anaemic lacking energy. Suzuki is my baseline and I always enjoy Gardiner's versions. Whenever I move to Leusink I feel the need to move on and listen to something else. YMMV of course

Richter set (incomplete) compliments the period instruments versions nicely.

I still have to give the Teldec 2000 Koopman/Harnoncourt cycle a listen.

Just yesterday I listened to BWV 138 and the bass aria was such a treat ...


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## Tsaraslondon

A favourite of mine is _Ich habe genug_, no 82. I have three versions of this (Janet Baker, David Daniels and Lorraine Hunt Lieberson), all wonderful in their own way, but I think the Hunt Lieberson has a special quality, even a valedictory quality, it having been recorded when she didn't have much time left.

I only wish I'd been one of those who saw her sing this, in a staged performance by Peter Sellars, at the Lincoln Centre, a performance that was, by all accounts, almost unbearably moving.



> In Cantata No. 82, "Ich Habe Genug" ("I Have Enough"), Ms. Hunt Lieberson, wearing a flimsy hospital gown and thick woolen socks, her face contorted with pain and yearning, portrayed a terminally ill patient who, no longer able to endure treatments, wants to let go and be comforted by Jesus. During one consoling aria, "Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen" ("Slumber now, weary eyes"), she yanked tubes from her arms and sang the spiraling melody with an uncanny blend of ennobling grace and unbearable sadness.


Anthony Tommasini writing in the New York Times.


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## EarthBoundRules

Cantata #54 is one of my favourites.


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## Manxfeeder

I can't list a favorite yet because I've only been through the complete cycle once. A while ago I listened to one a night for however long it took. It was a great experience, but I don't have the time to do all that again. And each piece is so daunting; there's so much going on in them, and each one requires more than one listen. Also, it didn't help that I have Gardiner's book on Bach, with very detailed comments on the cantatas, and all that information amounts to an overload. 

It's easier to get out Brahms' 1st and get it over with. I know; I'm a terrible person.


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## dieter

There are so many great recordings of Back Cantatas. I grew up with the Fritz Werner recordings, old fashioned but Werner had fantastic singers and instrumentalists. From this period I also likes Richer until he slowed right down towards the end. The quirky gem was Scherchen. I'd love to get hold of his 42, still the most stunning orchestral prelude I've heard.
Then along came Harnoncourt and Leonhardt. I heard an interview with Harnoncourt recently where he related his bitter experiences as an orchestral player with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. He hated Geoge Szell: he said there were times he wanted to kill him
I feel the same way about Harnoncourt and Leonhardt's insistence to use boys to sing some of the most sensual and beautiful music ever written. They mostly butcher it.
Gardiner is ok if you like that sexless British choral sound, Herrewghe is ok too. I like Koopman, Suzuki, and as a smokey, the Rotsch recorings made in East Germany.
Such great great music.


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## Bulldog

My favorite Bach cantata recordings come from the celebratory Gardiner, profound Herreweghe, balanced Suzuki and Rifkin on Decca.


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## Morimur

Is it just me or is the Suzuki box set only available as an import . . . for like $1,600.00


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## MrTortoise

Whew! I'm glad to hear that so many of you don't have 'favorites' because of the sheer amount of great music in Bach's monumental life's work, which is how I think of these works that had escaped my ears until I recently got the Koopman box. I'm not alone! I thought there would be people rattling off BWV this and that and I've made a concerted effort to give the cantatas a large portion of my listening time and given the amount of music and the high quality of it all I can really name no favorites. The Koopman set has 67 discs and I'm now up to number 22 and so far there has been only one cantata that was forgettable, and I believe it was one of questionable origin.

Thanks for creating this thread violoadude, this will give me a place to check in with any finds I have. I'd participate in a weekly cantata as well.


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## hpowders

My favorite Bach Cantata is "Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen". Only great coloratura sopranos need apply. Maria Stader's performance with Karl Richter conducting is the best I've ever heard.

I'm not into collecting all of the Bach Cantatas, though I know Gardiner and Suzuki performances rate very highly.


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## Muse Wanderer

Morimur said:


> Is it just me or is the Suzuki box set only available as an import . . . for like $1,600.00


It seems you are looking at the Japan Import SACD box.

The complete set in one box will be available in April for £191 (UK)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Cantatas-Collegiom-Blaikov%C3%A1-Nonoshita/dp/B01BXWH34E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1456574114&sr=8-2&keywords=suzuki+bach+cantata

http://www.mdt.co.uk/bach-the-complete-sacred-cantatas-bach-collegium-japan-masaaki-suzuki.html

It should be available to purchase in the States in the same period.


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## Guest

dieter said:


> I feel the same way about Harnoncourt and Leonhardt's insistence to use boys to sing some of the most sensual and beautiful music ever written. They mostly butcher it.
> 
> Such great great music.


I like this cantata very much and it is very well performed,in my opinion.I am still in favour of this recordings .


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## jenspen

traverso said:


> I like this cantata very much and it is very well performed,in my opinion.I am still in favour of this recordings .


I still listen to them too. Am immensely grateful to the friends Harnoncourt and Leonhardt for their brave and revolutionary collaboration. They invigorated and promoted performance of the Sacred Cantatas.

That kid was terrific and, to my ears, much better suited to the music than the more operatic female voices I hear in pre-HIP recordings. I see what a poster meant about boy soloists though. I think the soprano/bass duets in Wachtet Auf (BWV 140) for instance, don't work. Partly because of the lack of balance between the two voices and partly because the music is too seductive for that combination. My ideal of a Bach soprano is Barbara Schlick, who is now retired, though I could name other sopranos (mostly German or Japanese) whose work I love.

On the other hand, I enjoy the raw energy of some of the German language boys' choruses. I've seen videos of these amateurs and some of the kids are giving it all they've got! Listening to them, I can imagine JSB himself waving his arms around in front of the choir and terrorising them.


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## Pugg

​
This is one of my favourites :tiphat:


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## Guest

jenspen said:


> On the other hand, I enjoy the raw energy of some of the German language boys' choruses. I've seen videos of these amateurs and some of the kids are giving it all they've got! Very well put.:tiphat:


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## dieter

dieter said:


> There are so many great recordings of Back Cantatas. I grew up with the Fritz Werner recordings, old fashioned but Werner had fantastic singers and instrumentalists. From this period I also likes Richer until he slowed right down towards the end. The quirky gem was Scherchen. I'd love to get hold of his 42, still the most stunning orchestral prelude I've heard.
> Then along came Harnoncourt and Leonhardt. I heard an interview with Harnoncourt recently where he related his bitter experiences as an orchestral player with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. He hated Geoge Szell: he said there were times he wanted to kill him
> I feel the same way about Harnoncourt and Leonhardt's insistence to use boys to sing some of the most sensual and beautiful music ever written. They mostly butcher it.
> Gardiner is ok if you like that sexless British choral sound, Herrewghe is ok too. I like Koopman, Suzuki, and as a smokey, the Rotsch recorings made in East Germany.
> Such great great music.


Richer is of course meant to be Kart Richter.
There is also a supremely beautiful rendition of #170. The alto is Aafje Heynis and it's available on Australian Eloquence.


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## Manxfeeder

Muse Wanderer said:


> It seems you are looking at the Japan Import SACD box.
> 
> The complete set in one box will be available in April for £191 (UK)


Back in the '90s when Suzuki began his cycle, I was going to put $50 in the stock market and wait for it to grow so that when the box set came out, I could purchase it with my ill-gotten gains. Unfortunately, I haven't had the best luck with legalized gambling, so it looks like I'm to remain happy with the Brilliant set.


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## Muse Wanderer

Manxfeeder said:


> Back in the '90s when Suzuki began his cycle, I was going to put $50 in the stock market and wait for it to grow so that when the box set came out, I could purchase it with my ill-gotten gains. Unfortunately, I haven't had the best luck with legalized gambling, so it looks like I'm to remain happy with the Brilliant set.


Ahhh... you are better served listening to Suzuki pieces found at random on youtube.

The Brilliant cycle is the least engaging, most boring set of them all. The more I try to listen to it, the more I am repelled.

But then it could just be me addicted to the my precious Suzuki cantatas. I adore them all!


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## Manxfeeder

Muse Wanderer said:


> Ahhh... you are better served listening to Suzuki pieces found at random on youtube.
> 
> The Brilliant cycle is the least engaging, most boring set of them all. The more I try to listen to it, the more I am repelled.
> 
> But then it could just be me addicted to the my precious Suzuki cantatas. I adore them all!


I have a soft spot for the Brilliant set. They are probably the closest to being historically informed performances in that they probably sounded like Bach's choir; competent, at times maybe brilliant, but not having a lot of time tease out the details like the present choirs are able to. So Leusink's choir is Bach as it was and Suzuki is Bach as it should be.

Of course, I have several Koopman, Gardiner, Herreweghe, and Suzuki CDs to supplement it, so I at least have a nice mix.


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## KRoad

Manxfeeder said:


> I have a soft spot for the Brilliant set.


Yes, me too. In fact I prefer them in general to the Rilling set (which I also have). The Brilliant set is too often run-down IMO.

I recently bought the translations to all the Cantatas in paperback; one could I suppose view them as mini-operas. Not to be confused with the more theatrical oratorios of Handel though. Bach is pretty fire and brimstone, hell and damnation stuff. Still it provides an additional dimension to the aural pleasure.


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## Muse Wanderer

Manxfeeder said:


> I have a soft spot for the Brilliant set. They are probably the closest to being historically informed performances in that they probably sounded like Bach's choir; competent, at times maybe brilliant, but not having a lot of time tease out the details like the present choirs are able to. So Leusink's choir is Bach as it was and Suzuki is Bach as it should be.
> 
> Of course, I have several Koopman, Gardiner, Herreweghe, and Suzuki CDs to supplement it, so I at least have a nice mix.


You do have a point there. Suzuki did start his project in 1995 for goodness' sake! Leusinck had less than a year to record the entire set.

I just listened to a few cantatas from Leusinck's Set to see if I keep missing something. I also listened to BWV 147 from Suzuki, Gardiner and Leusinck.

Suzuki is excellent and the best in my opinion. BWV 147 is nicely balanced, with excellent instrumental music, vocals and timing. The recording quality and engineering is absolutely fantastic as always from BIS. Suzuki's rendition of the famous choral is stupefying!

Gardiner's BWV 147 is good but too fast with the choral! That choral is not what I was expecting. Voices are great but a bit too emotional at times. The intrumental music is excellent as is the recording and sound engineering.

Leusinck's BWV 147 instrumental music is fine with good tonality but sounds congested at times. The recording quality is not good. The main problem is the vocal performers. Whilst the bass is good and the tenor is fine, the soprano is mediocre and the alto is absolutely horrific! They spoil all the fun and it is such a shame. The cantatas I have heard from the Leusinck (Brilliant) set suffer from the same issues.

The problem with this is once I heard much better recorded cantatas, going back to 'ok' perfomance feels like listening to any random local orchestra / chorus.

Leusinck did record the cycle in less than a year and unlike Gardiner did not have great vocal performers and an excellent orchestra to support him. He does convey the essence of the music but unlike Suzuki or Gardiner's excellence, Leusinck can only be considered as mediocre / good quality.


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## MrTortoise

KRoad said:


> Yes, me too. In fact I prefer them in general to the Rilling set (which I also have). The Brilliant set is too often run-down IMO.
> 
> I recently bought the translations to all the Cantatas in paperback; one could I suppose view them as mini-operas. Not to be confused with the more theatrical oratorios of Handel though. Bach is pretty fire and brimstone, hell and damnation stuff. Still it provides an additional dimension to the aural pleasure.


I'm curious what translation your purchased. I'm currently using the Bach-Cantata website for translations of the texts:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/index.htm

Some seem less successful than others, however that is based on the consistency of the English of the translation, I know no German.

I'm currently making my way through the Koopman cantata cycle, nearly half-way through, so I'm looking for resources to supplement the experience and my knowledge. I used to listen to vocal music as absolute music, mostly ignoring the text, however over the last few years the importance of the text has grown on me.


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## Manxfeeder

Muse Wanderer said:


> Whilst the bass is good and the tenor is fine, the soprano is mediocre and the alto is absolutely horrific! They spoil all the fun and it is such a shame.


From my understanding, Ruth Holton was intentionally trying to sound like a boy soprano, so she doesn't get very expressive. So I give her some slack. But I agree, the alto is horrible. Someone described him as sounding like he just came from the dentist.


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## Bulldog

Muse Wanderer said:


> You do have a point there. Suzuki did start his project in 1995 for goodness' sake! Leusinck had less than a year to record the entire set.


The Leusinck set has many disadvantages; I had no idea he recorded all the cantatas in less than a year. That would explain the sub-par interpretations and execution. Of course, as a buyer, I don't give any slack for the small time period. It was a stupid way to go about it.


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## dieter

traverso said:


> jenspen said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, I enjoy the raw energy of some of the German language boys' choruses. I've seen videos of these amateurs and some of the kids are giving it all they've got! Very well put.:tiphat:
> 
> 
> 
> German boy choirs sound much more engaged and expressive than English boy choirs. From Ramin to Rotsch, the choirs from Leipzig sing joyfully.
Click to expand...


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## Muse Wanderer

Bulldog said:


> The Leusinck set has many disadvantages; I had no idea he recorded all the cantatas in less than a year. That would explain the sub-par interpretations and execution. Of course, as a buyer, I don't give any slack for the small time period. It was a stupid way to go about it.


I completely agree. The whole Leusinck project took 15 months to be precise. It was criticised at the time for rushing through these at mass market production. The results are there to be listened to and they are far from ideal.

Gardiner within the same time period managed to record a really fine set. His undertaking was miraculous.

Suzuki started in 1995 and finished in 2013! Now that is dedication! And his set in my opinion, is perfection incarnate (I am a biased fan ). He took his time until he got it right.

Prospective buyers should chose wisely and not be lured by cheaper sets. It is not worth the money or time it takes to listen. Every single cantata is a treasure to behold and having it ruined by amateur performance is a shame.

JS Bach's cantatas may well be the culmination of a journey into Bach's works and I think chosing a well performed set is crucial in fulfilling that aim.


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## KRoad

Muse Wanderer said:


> He took his time until he got it right.


...until he got it right - please explain.

Re: libretti:

Z. Philip Ambrose

ISBN-13 978-1-4134-4600-5

BTW: Gardiner really not something one should _over_-rate.


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## Enthusiast

Do others like the Suzuki recordings as much as I do? I find I often prefer them to Gardiner's outings because there is more heart in them. I have also greatly enjoyed the few cantata recordings of the Ricercar Consort with Pierre Pierlot.


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## jegreenwood

Happened on this thread this morning while exploring Sigiswald Kuijken's recordings (via Tidal) for the first time. Enjoying the one to a part aspect. A nice contrast to the Gardiner, Richter, Harnoncourt et al in my collection.


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## Bruckner Anton

Interesting topic. I dont have a complete cycle of all the cantatas, but I have gone though Richter's recording on Archiv for many times. The singers did an excellent job, and Ricther's unique reading of Bach really fits me.
From a non-technical point of view, here are some of my favorite sacred cantatas in this set:
BWV4,8,11,12,21,23,45,51,56,61,63,67,78,80,82,92,106,132,140,147,199.
Also I am looking for some well-known sacred cantatas that did not included in the set, like:
BWV29,42,54,110,119,161,131,143,170,172,198.


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## Asterix77

I own several complete sets, Leusink, Koopman, Rilling, Suzuki. A few Gardiner recordings and all Herreweghe recordings, but he does not record the complete cantata's unfortunately.

I prefer Herreweghe, but from the complete sets I prefer Koopman, Suzuki. 
I have a weak spot for Bach's early canata's, but there are lots of great ones, like 21, 70, 106, 78, 131, 35, 146, .......too many


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## ArtMusic

Suzuki's set is closest to the church spirit I think. Gardiner's set sounds more dramatic in interpretation.


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## Pugg

ArtMusic said:


> Suzuki's set is closest to the church spirit I think. Gardiner's set sounds more dramatic in interpretation.


Spot on :tiphat:


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## arnerich

This movement from Cantata 101 melts my soul


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## Fletcher

Forgive me, i posted a very similar reply in the other Cantata thread without having noticed this newer and more active one.

I started listening to the Cantata's of of J.S. Bach aged thirteen when I began listening to classical music. Several years later I think I've more or less heard all on disc, and have been fortunate to have performed a few (and counting) within recent years. They've become my favourite and most listened to works of music as well as serving me well in times of joy and despair.

As an atheist I find it difficult to find as much consolation in the libretti of many of the cantatas as others do. Though I find Bach's ability to tell stories and paint pictures using both words and music deeply fascinating:

One of the first i came to hear was BWV 63, _Christen, ätzet diesen Tag_, which is generally a good starting point in the treasure trove of Bach's Cantatas. The first Recitative, O selger Tag! takes the form of an operatic arioso. From the beginning, fitting with the text 'O blissful day', Bach paints a very tranquil picture. Ten bars in on mention of Satan's power, the tempo slows a little and the parts become busier featuring intrusive rising and falling arpeggios in the continuo plunging us into a minor tonality - perhaps these three bars depict the struggle to free from Satan's chains.

I also love how Bach wrote for instrument as he would for voice and in doing so found fitting combinations of instrumentation for his arias. The first aria from Cantata BWV 63, _Gott, du hast es wolh gefüget_ is a gorgeous duet between soprano and bass accompanied by a solo oboe. It is Bach's use of oboe - one of the most prominent of instruments in his cantatas - which led me to taking up the baroque oboe!





John Eliot Gardiner rehearsing Cantata BWV 63

--

When it comes to listening to the Cantatas I adore the power of the Monteverdi Choir for the big chorus' but find Gardiner's approach to the arias too mechanical. Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra convey a little more of the jazz in Bach's writing through use of tempo, as well as the inclusion of a lute/theorbo and Koopmans own organ obligatos. (I'm a little more biased to the Amsterdam lot as one of my teachers played with them for these Cantata cycles!)

There are some newer artists deserving attention: the J.S. Bach Stiftung, and as mentioned above, Philippe Pierlot / Ricercar Consort who have made some very pleasing recordings (including BWV 63).


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## Der Titan

I have read this thread, very interesting. I possess the Rilling, 25 CDs Leusink and 5 CDs Rotzsch. The Rilling I have bought a couple of weeks ago. It was a special offer of Amazon Germany, only 35 Euros for the whole big box, really next to nothing, so I couldn't resist. I must say that I like the Rilling, he has good singers and good orchestral forces. So in the moment I am listening to the whole box. And I must say that I am very impressed by all the good ideas Bach has to offer. There are of course favourite cantatas and of course there are special pieces in the cantatas which are especially fine, but I must say that of the 6 CDs I have started with, I have listened to nearly every CD with joy.


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## helenora

I'm into his cantatas at the moment, listening just on random without following any particular order, maybe I will llisten to them in order they where composed , but later...


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## SiegendesLicht

The Bach cantatas are my second favorite collection of works of a single genre (after Wagner operas). The only recording of them I have is the one made by Karl Richter and the Münchener Bach-Orchester. Does anybody else have it? I am not sure I even need any other ones so far, because this one is so good, especially since the bass parts are sung by my favorite Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. I listen to a few of the cantatas every once in a while. As for my favorites - I keep discovering ones that I really like after repeated listening. The last one is BWV158 "Der Friede sei mit dir". Dietrich singing "Der Friede sei mit dir, mit dir..." sounds so very, well, peaceful.


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## helenora

a little bit of a personal story about me and cantatas.
First I got acquainted with them when I was at the age of 13-14, we had a family friend an old gentleman who listened to classical music every single day and JS Bach was his favorite composer and he liked his cantatas a lot. It was my first exposure to cantatas , to say the truth I wasn't fascinated with them - no wonder at such age Beethoven is what youth needs  even though I liked Bach's Klavier music and even his Mass, but cantatas....I thought it was for older people and definitely not for my taste, but now rediscovering them again and I do love them 

it seems that some pieces of CM aren't for kids or it takes time and right time to appreciate them


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## hpowders

SiegendesLicht said:


> The Bach cantatas are my second favorite collection of works of a single genre (after Wagner operas). The only recording of them I have is the one made by Karl Richter and the Münchener Bach-Orchester. Does anybody else have it? I am not sure I even need any other ones so far, because this one is so good, especially since the bass parts are sung by my favorite Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. I listen to a few of the cantatas every once in a while. As for my favorites - I keep discovering ones that I really like after repeated listening. The last one is BWV158 "Der Friede sei mit dir". Dietrich singing "Der Friede sei mit dir, mit dir..." sounds so very, well, peaceful.


I have a few of the Richter Bach Cantata recordings plus the B minor Mass. They are terrific performances even though the HIP crowd would consider them a bit old fashioned at this time.

Their performance with Maria Stader of BWV 51, "Jauchzet Gott in allen landen" is the best I've ever heard. Magnificent!


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## Guest

I like to ask you to listen to the two videos.

I favor the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt and I like to illustate this with the cantate "Gott is unsere Zuversicht".
Suzuki is good but I miss something wich is present in the cantate directed by Gustav Leonhardt.
I hope you will give it your attention and response.











I hope that there wil be some forum members who are willing to listen and give there views.
It can't be serious that the Bach cantatas draw so little attention.
Maybe I am on the wrong forum?


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## helenora

I tell you that from the first minute there is such an obvious difference in tempos! in this music tempo is crucially important.
So, for me easy choice I go with Leonhardt. No need to hurry your horses Mr Suzuki!

as for the rest , more detailed view I have to listen to both interpretations completely.


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## Guest

helenora said:


> I tell you that from the first minute there is such an obvious difference in tempos! in this music tempo is crucially important.
> So, for me easy choice I go with Leonhardt. No need to hurry your horses Mr Suzuki!
> 
> as for the rest , more detailed view I have to listen to both interpretations completely.


I hope you do and I do look forward to your review.Please listen to the whole cantata and not just fragments.:tiphat:

It is very rewarding,I can asure you.:angel:


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## helenora

Traverso said:


> I hope you do and I do look forward to your review.Please listen to the whole cantata and not just fragments.:tiphat:
> 
> It is very rewarding,I can asure you.:angel:


no worries!  I'm experienced in that . I will. btw I never listen to fragments.....are there people who do so???? then I am very surprised.


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## helenora

well, I've finished listening to two of them and to have more understanding of the difference between Leonhardt and Suzuki I've decided to listen to other cantatas available in both above mentioned interpretations. 

But at first sight for me Suzuki sounds more romantic, he tries to make it more "flowing" I mean the sound while the concept of cantatas isn't to be flowing, but clear in every sound ... that's what Leonhardt's interpretation has , it's deutlich and it's not about pronunciation, it's about how orchestra plays and it's never playful, while in Suzuki's version we can hear this playfulness in "dialogues" , when there is a dialogue between this and that instrument ...

I'm for joy, but joy shouldn't be replaced by playfulness of interpreters.

let's see how it looks in other cantatas with Suzuki. I've heard some praising reviews about Suzuki's set, but now I wonder why there is such a praise.


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## Guest

I know exactly what you mean by "flowing",the Leonhardt is more incisive and rhythmically more convincing.Suzuki is more exterior and smoothly.I hope nobody feels offended.
The Harnoncourt/Leonhardt is much older and you can hear the difficulties specially the trumpets wich sometimes sound ugly in the first recordings.
The same goes for the boys sopranos,I wonder if it wil done again because voices are changing at a younger age.
I listened to all the sacred cantatas and it was certainly not a waste of time.


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## SiegendesLicht

I have just listened to the two interpretations as well and pretty much agree with Helenora's assessment.

And no, listening to all the cantatas is most certainly not a waste of time. In fact, the more I listen to them, the more rewarding and beautiful the experience becomes.


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## Guest

I go further with the Bach secular cantatas,its just so beautiful.....:angel:


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## Guest

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have just listened to the two interpretations as well and pretty much agree with Helenora's assessment.
> 
> And no, listening to all the cantatas is most certainly not a waste of time. In fact, the more I listen to them, the more rewarding and beautiful the experience becomes.


You are so right,many hours filled with exquisite music lies ahead.:tiphat:


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## helenora

Traverso said:


> I know exactly what you mean by "flowing",the Leonhardt is more incisive and rhythmically more convincing.Suzuki is more exterior and smoothly.I hope nobody feels offended.
> The Harnoncourt/Leonhardt is much older and you can hear the difficulties specially the trumpets wich sometimes sound ugly in the first recordings.
> The same goes for the boys sopranos,I wonder if it wil done again because voices are changing at a younger age.
> I listened to all the sacred cantatas and it was certainly not a waste of time.


I agree that older recordings sound imperfect in some ways especially boys sopranos, but Suzuki's fast interpretations ruin even positive aspects of his orchestra sound. That's a pity.


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## Bulldog

I find the Leonhardt more detailed, inherently dramatic and subtle. Both versions use a boy soprano, but the one for Leonhardt sounds like a little kid not ready for prime-time; since the soprano aria is not one of favorites, it's not a deal-breaker.
Overall, a strong advantage for Leonhardt.


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## Ariasexta

I recommended Gustav Leonhardt and Nikolaus Harnoncourts versions, because generally I feel highly satisfied with the overall presentation: instrumentation, recording accoustics, orchestration, very good bass voices or countertenors, also strangely I feel good with the boy soprano. However, I would still look for other versions with the true sopranos, because only by listening to true soprano version Bachs cantatas can be heard in their true harmonic characters. It is true that somehow, I can not dismiss the versions by Gustav and Nikolaus, their versions are still highly enjoyable and high quality. I am not sure if the boy soprano is more suitable but maybe there are other reasons I currently can not figure out yet. In fact boy soprano is being more frequently used in early music performances now, I have 2 recordings from Rondeau label of Andreas Hammerschmidts（1611-1674） and Hans Hasslers（1564-1612） choral works, both use boy sopranos, I do not think the boy sopranos really stand out from true sopranos in those two discs. 

As for Bachs cantatas, I also recommend recordings directed by Philippe Herreweghe, they are excellent too！but I have not heard from versions by Ton Koopman and Masaki Suzuki yet. They shall be excellent too, since they are so universally acclaimed as Gustav Leonhardt and Nikolaus Harnoncourt as conductors.


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## Guest

It is a pity that the contribution with boy sopranos is no longer possible.Voices are breaking too early and there is too little time.Also commercially is it a risk.I am willing to accept the imperfections of a young boy soprano,there are certainly very beautiful arias and if it is good it is beyond belief.The timbre of a young boy is something special and not replaceable by a soprano.


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## Ariasexta

Traverso said:


> It is a pity that the contribution with boy sopranos is no longer possible.Voices are breaking too early and there is too little time.Also commercially is it a risk.I am willing to accept the imperfections of a young boy soprano,there are certainly very beautiful arias and if it is good it is beyond belief.The timbre of a young boy is something special and not replaceable by a soprano.


It is true the Teldec version has brilliant boy sopranos and boys tenor voice suit many Bachs arias very well, giving a really ethereal and warm quality and clarity of the text.


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## helenora

Traverso said:


> It is a pity that the contribution with boy sopranos is no longer possible.Voices are breaking too early and there is too little time.Also commercially is it a risk.I am willing to accept the imperfections of a young boy soprano,there are certainly very beautiful arias and if it is good it is beyond belief.The timbre of a young boy is something special and not replaceable by a soprano.


but you know I´ve noticed these imperfections since long ago, they ´haven´t bothered me very much since then as I took them as something authentic, somewhat of innate beauty. I even began to think that it must be exactly like that how it was performed in Bach´s era. Back then they didn´t have time to rehearse a lot, they had to perform often and most probably under stress ( Bach composed lots of cantatas on every occasion ) since it was the only way how listeners could listen to music. Although a discipline in a choir was very strict and I have no doubts boys did their best under such conditions, but still life is life and it couldn´t escape imperfections of any live performances....

So is an explanation of my overall judgement of Leonhardt´s recordings, that´s why I put more attention on a concept of performance , on orchestra, tempos than on a choir.


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## Guest

I just found this and I think it is good even without boy sopranos.Is it the most beautiful music ever written? I am Always in absolute awe when I hear it.


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## Guest

helenora said:


> but you know I´ve noticed these imperfections since long ago, they ´haven´t bothered me very much since then as I took them as something authentic, somewhat of innate beauty. I even began to think that it must be exactly like that how it was performed in Bach´s era. Back then they didn´t have time to rehearse a lot, they had to perform often and most probably under stress ( Bach composed lots of cantatas on every occasion ) since it was the only way how listeners could listen to music. Although a discipline in a choir was very strict and I have no doubts boys did their best under such conditions, but still life is life and it couldn´t escape imperfections of any live performances....
> 
> So is an explanation of my overall judgement of Leonhardt´s recordings, that´s why I put more attention on a concept of performance , on orchestra, tempos than on a choir.


Using boys sopranos was surely part of the concept,the size of the choir and the use of rubato.
It is religious music and has to be approached as such.Meaning,to avoid glitter for the sake of the performers or to just entertain .
This is most certainly the case with Gustav Leonhardt.
The beauty is there but not in a theatrical manner.In a way less is more but some (performers) are pushing it too far.


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## jenspen

Traverso said:


> I just found this and I think it is good even without boy sopranos.Is it the most beautiful music ever written? I am Always in absolute awe when I hear it.


I guess you've read what Benjamin Britten said of it? That, with Winterreise, it is one of the twin peaks of Western civilisation.

I don't know whether I entirely agree, but who am I to argue with Britten?


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## Scott in PA

I've noticed that there have been several performances of Bach cantatas posted to YouTube by the Netherlands Bach Society as part of the "All of Bach" project. Today when I logged onto YouTube, the first recommended video was a new performance just posted today: _Sie werden aus Saba alle kommen_, the cantata for Epiphany (which is today):






These performances are quite good. These are different than the Bach Stiftung (Bach Foundation), which is also traversing through all the cantatas, some of which have been posted to YouTube. One difference is that the Stiftung wants you to subscribe to get complete performances, whereas All of Bach posts complete performances without having to subscribe. The Stiftung probably has an edge on virtuosity and soloists, but not by much.


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## starthrower

Ariasexta said:


> I recommended Gustav Leonhardt and Nikolaus Harnoncourts versions, because generally I feel highly satisfied with the overall presentation: instrumentation, recording accoustics, orchestration, very good bass voices or countertenors, also strangely I feel good with the boy soprano. However, I would still look for other versions with the true sopranos, because only by listening to true soprano version Bachs cantatas can be heard in their true harmonic characters. It is true that somehow, I can not dismiss the versions by Gustav and Nikolaus, their versions are still highly enjoyable and high quality. I am not sure if the boy soprano is more suitable but maybe there are other reasons I currently can not figure out yet. In fact boy soprano is being more frequently used in early music performances now, I have 2 recordings from Rondeau label of Andreas Hammerschmidts（1611-1674） and Hans Hasslers（1564-1612） choral works, both use boy sopranos, I do not think the boy sopranos really stand out from true sopranos in those two discs.
> 
> As for Bachs cantatas, I also recommend recordings directed by Philippe Herreweghe, they are excellent too！but I have not heard from versions by Ton Koopman and Masaki Suzuki yet. They shall be excellent too, since they are so universally acclaimed as Gustav Leonhardt and Nikolaus Harnoncourt as conductors.


Warner Classics has a new 7 CD Harnoncourt set for very cheap.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner+Classics/9029597513


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## Don Camillo

I have two complete box sets, Suzuki and Gardiner. I like them both, but Suzuki is my go to set. I love the crisp and clear BIS sound.

When I discover singers I really like, I always try to find if they have recorded any of the cantatas. I they have, I buy them. Magdalena Kozena's recordings are one example. They are absolutely beautiful, and I return to them time and time again.

A few years ago, I bought a cardboard box full of classical music, and at the bottom of the box I found the full Bach box set from the dutch label Brilliant. I find many of them to be absolutely fine, but I am not no impressed with their cantatas.


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## Handelian

Bulldog said:


> I find the Leonhardt more detailed, inherently dramatic and subtle. Both versions use a boy soprano, but the one for Leonhardt sounds like a little kid not ready for prime-time; since the soprano aria is not one of favorites, it's not a deal-breaker.
> Overall, a strong advantage for Leonhardt.


Just a point. Not sure whether you are referring to BWV 51, "Jauchzet Gott in allen landen" but Leonhardt uses Marjanne Kweksilber as the soprano soloist, not a boy.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Don’t know if anyone is interested, but I thought this might be of some help to anyone who wants to get into this incredible but admittedly daunting body of work. Throughout six months this year, I listened to all of the cantatas (sacred and secular), hearing most of them at least two or three times as I studied them, and made a three-tier system of what I consider to be the greatest cantatas, assigning them either 5, 4 1/2, or 4 stars. This does not include all the cantatas, only those that I think everyone absolutely needs to hear. There are certainly a few that are of lesser quality, but none that I would rank below 2 1/2 stars at the absolute minimum or would consider anything less than good. 

***** (the best of the best, my favorite group of musical works in any genre, of all time)
4, 8, 12, 21, 23, 27, 36, 38, 42, 49, 56, 77, 80, 101, 105, 106, 109, 125, 127, 140, 147, 161

**** 1/2 (astoundingly good)
1, 3, 6, 9, 13, 20, 22, 24, 25, 29, 31, 43, 46, 51, 54, 57, 58, 60, 61, 63, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 78, 82, 95, 115, 135, 137, 139, 157, 167, 170, 172, 180, 197, 198, 199

**** (superb)
2, 7, 10, 11, 14, 19, 26, 30, 33, 34, 39, 40, 41, 50, 52, 55, 64, 65, 67, 70, 73, 84, 88, 93, 96, 99, 103, 104, 110, 113, 123, 129, 132, 146, 155, 159, 171, 177, 178, 179, 186, 207, 211, 214, 215

I may write another post (maybe under the blogs) here some time with brief descriptions and further explanation of the top tier cantatas just because I am so fascinated by them. This pilgrimage through the world of Bach throughout the last half-year has been the most eye-opening artistic experience of my life so far.


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## Azol

Definitely interesting. Also it would be helpful to indicate which set you were listening to.
I noticed in the initial run from 1 to 14 you excluded 5 from your favorites. I'd instead swapped out the 3 which contains one hell of a sleep-inducing bass aria


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## tdc

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Don't know if anyone is interested, but I thought this might be of some help to anyone who wants to get into this incredible but admittedly daunting body of work. Throughout six months this year, I listened to all of the cantatas (sacred and secular), hearing most of them at least two or three times as I studied them, and made a three-tier system of what I consider to be the greatest cantatas, assigning them either 5, 4 1/2, or 4 stars. This does not include all the cantatas, only those that I think everyone absolutely needs to hear. There are certainly a few that are of lesser quality, but none that I would rank below 2 1/2 stars at the absolute minimum or would consider anything less than good.
> 
> ***** (the best of the best, my favorite group of musical works in any genre, of all time)
> 4, 8, 12, 21, 23, 27, 36, 38, 42, 49, 56, 77, 80, 101, 105, 106, 109, 125, 127, 140, 147, 161
> 
> **** 1/2 (astoundingly good)
> 1, 3, 6, 9, 13, 20, 22, 24, 25, 29, 31, 43, 46, 51, 54, 57, 58, 60, 61, 63, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 78, 82, 95, 115, 135, 137, 139, 157, 167, 170, 172, 180, 197, 198, 199
> 
> **** (superb)
> 2, 7, 10, 11, 14, 19, 26, 30, 33, 34, 39, 40, 41, 50, 52, 55, 64, 65, 67, 70, 73, 84, 88, 93, 96, 99, 103, 104, 110, 113, 123, 129, 132, 146, 155, 159, 171, 177, 178, 179, 186, 207, 211, 214, 215
> 
> I may write another post (maybe under the blogs) here some time with brief descriptions and further explanation of the top tier cantatas just because I am so fascinated by them. This pilgrimage through the world of Bach throughout the last half-year has been the most eye-opening artistic experience of my life so far.


^ 82 not in the best of the best, come on! 

140 is good but I find it a little over rated personally.

Ok that said I haven't done as in depth of listening to the cantatas as yourself, respect!


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## Handelian

I’m embarking on reading Gardiner’s ‘Music in the Castle of Heaven’ which gives special attention to the cantatas. But as Bach said: “I was forced to be industrious. Anyone who is similarly industrious will produce the same results!” As you do!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Azol said:


> Definitely interesting. Also it would be helpful to indicate which set you were listening to.
> I noticed in the initial run from 1 to 14 you excluded 5 from your favorites. I'd instead swapped out the 3 which contains one hell of a sleep-inducing bass aria


5 is definitely an omission; I would include it in the 4-star tier. The opening chorus and duet of 3 are two of my favorite such movements, but yes, that aria needs a really good performance to come off well. I listened to a variety of performers (I use streaming) - Suzuki, Gardiner, Rilling, Koopman for the most part with Suzuki probably taking precedence because I find his combination of singing/playing talent and sound quality irresistable. Harnoncourt/Leonhardt do some supreme versions of the solo cantatas (Esswood's 54, von Egmond/Equiluz's 157, Bonney's 199) but the boy soloists and the raggedy choral sound do me in with most of them.



tdc said:


> ^ 82 not in the best of the best, come on!


Yeah, a bit of a controversial opinion. It was more of a subconscious reaction to it being _soooo_ popular as to overshadow so many other cantata gems - it's magnificent but there are at least 25 I would rank above it as evidenced. I prefer 56 as the greatest single-soloist cantata (that chorale is one of the most heart-rendingly beautiful things I've ever heard).


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## HighDesertGaze

I don't know how many former posters are still around to see this, but I wanted to thank all of you for drawing my attention to this wonderful work, and then helping me decide which version to start with through your thoughtful critiquing of the various conductors, recording quality, choirs and soloists, etc.

Without reading anything, I probably would have gone for the Suzuki, having enjoyed his rendition of Bach's _Mass in B minor_, but I was swayed by Koopman's use of actual women to sing the parts written for them. To be fair, had I not read that, I would probably never have noticed a thing listening to the Suzuki. I expect that I would enjoy the Suzuki very much, and will probably pick it up someday.

Thanks again.


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## Eriks

“ Without reading anything, I probably would have gone for the Suzuki, having enjoyed his rendition of Bach's Mass in B minor, but I was swayed by Koopman's use of actual women to sing the parts written for them. To be fair, had I not read that, I would probably never have noticed a thing listening to the Suzuki.”

Suzuki/ Bach collegium Japan also employ female singers in the choir, right?

Regardless they are a great all around choice if one is interested in a complete cycle from one group. Their lowest level is very very high.


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