# Beethoven Piano Sonatas on Period Fortepiano



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I looked for a thread on this and couldn't find one so if I'm unknowingly duplicating an old thread I apologize.

I am looking for recordings of Beethoven Piano Sonatas on the fortepianos of the period in which the sonatas were written.

I have found this recording which has all five Piano Concerti but only a few of the sonatas:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical...nre=130&bcorder=195&name_id=21270&name_role=2

Any CD recommendations would be most welcome.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

There's a fine complete set played in Ronald Brautigam, on BIS. Another complete set in fortepiano, also excellent, is by Paul Badura-Skoda; it was issued on the Astree label, but I believe that it's OOP and the individual CD's are pretty pricey on the used CD market.

Two non-complete CD issues that I like are a single CD by Anthony Newman on the Newport label (Moonlight, Appassionata, Pathetique, and Waldstein, IIRC), and a double CD set of the last six sonatas by Peter Serkin (Musical Concepts).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Another vote for Brautigam's recordings. For me they are among the best on any instrument.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Olias said:


> I am looking for recordings of Beethoven Piano Sonatas on the fortepianos of the period in which the sonatas were written.


Others have given you some steers towards recordings, I'm going to complicate things.

Beethoven owned a Viennese piano and later replaced it with an English piano, they're different types of instrument. The later sonatas should be played on a Broadwood, and the music before the fugue of the hammerklaver should be played on a faster Viennese piano. Tom Beghin is illuminating on these issues here


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Brautigam performances are fine UP TO the Hammerklavier Sonata. From then on, Beethoven enters an otherwordly Romantic phase that puts a serious strain on fortepiano performances, whether it is due to physical limitations of the instrument, as in the Hammerklavier Sonata or poetic limitations of the instrument, as in the 32nd Piano Sonata.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Others have given you some steers towards recordings, I'm going to complicate things.






Mandryka; said:


> Beethoven owned a Viennese piano and later replaced it with an English piano, they're different types of instrument. The later sonatas should be played on a Broadwood, and the music before the fugue of the hammerklaver should be played on a faster Viennese piano. Tom Beghin is illuminating on these issues here


How can we know, what Beethoven intended? And how could Beethoven for that matter know? He could not hear the instruments in question.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I have a couple of CDs of Melvyn Tan playing Beethoven on a modern repro of a Broadwood fortepiano of the period. Can't say it's a revelation to me, though Waldstein works very well. But I suspect that B was always pushing at the limitations of contemporary instruments, hence the demands made by the late sonatas, which really do need the modern concert grand to realise their scale and depth of tone.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

This is very helpful everyone. Thanks. I sampled the Ronald Brautigam cycle and like it very much.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Brautigam also has a very impressive Diabelli Variations on the fortepiano. Schiff did this as well, but with (for me) less impressive results.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> How can we know, what Beethoven intended? And how could Beethoven for that matter know? He could not hear the instruments in question.


He was writing by improvising at a piano. He could feel the vibrations and the action.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

I cordially dislike Brautigam. His interpretations are almost invariably very fast, and I find his interpretations completely devoid of thought or feeling - just showmanship. Unfortunately, the only other complete set I'm aware of is Badura-Skoda's, whose musical thinking is miles beyond Brautigam, but whose fingers aren't quite as nimble, and so there are mistakes here and there, and botched passages, some of them really bad. It's a shame.

I like Lubimov's disc with the last three sonatas - the playing is very intelligent, the interpretations consistently interesting. He's playing a genuine 1828 instrument, an Alois Graff. There's also a disc with Lubimov playing Beethoven on a much earlier Erard piano, which features really nice interpretations, but I don't quite like the way the music was recorded.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

hpowders said:


> The Brautigam performances are fine UP TO the Hammerklavier Sonata. From then on, Beethoven enters an otherwordly Romantic phase that puts a serious strain on fortepiano performances, whether it is due to physical limitations of the instrument, as in the Hammerklavier Sonata or poetic limitations of the instrument, as in the 32nd Piano Sonata.


Well, we are all different but I can't agree. I wasn't expecting him to do these late sonatas well but found them excellent. I also do not find his playing showy (in response to a different post). I do wonder sometimes whether my opinions and tastes are determined partly by my mood on listening or some other incidental factor but with these performances ... I have heard them too often for this to be a factor.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_How can we know, what Beethoven intended? And how could Beethoven for that matter know? He could not hear the instruments in question._

Beethoven's hearing was in decline in the 1790s as a young man. He had tinnitus by 18i01 and said his deafness was "intolerable" by 1815; it worsened the last dozen years of his life.

He wrote the 9th symphony and Missa Solemnis, probably his two greatest and most powerful compositions, after he lost his hearing. Ditto the famous last 5 piano sonatas and final string quartet. He heard these compositions in his mind's eye, as we call it today, and after a lifetime of composing he knew what they would sound like.

These compositions expressed an emotional and mental state that transcended hearing. This is most acute in the final piano sonata's final movement, which to me is the closest any composition has come to straddling the barrier between earthly and some other form of existence.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I've heard a lot of the Brautigam sonatas. There is leonine quality and energy that are greater than most.

I agree he is often too virtuosic for my taste; I prefer an approach more like Richter or Schnabel, pianists who help me hear things in Beethoven I never previously knew existed.

Beethoven struggled with the limitations of keyboards of his day. He'd surely have approved of the modern pianoforte, with its improved hammering and pedaling capabilities, over them. This isn't to say I don't like the sound of period keyboards; I just don't think they are capable of exposing everything there is to hear in Beethoven.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

"After 1803 Beethoven used a French piano by Erard. He wanted a more robust-sounding instrument than the Viennese ones, he wanted the piano with the biggest range, and he liked the Erard's pedals. But by 1813 Beethoven had had it with the Erard: "My French piano is... quite useless." ...

What Beethoven wanted from his own instrument was a huge range of volume and a range of attack, from a flowing legato to incisive staccatos. On the page he used a profusion of performance indications: directions for both pedals including half-pedal effects, several kinds of staccato, a variety of volume and note-attack indications that often serve, in practice, to juxtapose tenderness and violence. He wanted comedy, tragedy, and everything between." - Jan Swafford

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2003/mar/15/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures

"Brautigam's attention to historical form is such that three separate fortepianos have been recalled from the subs' benches in order to trace the evolution of the instrumental hardware with which Beethoven himself necessarily wrestled. Paul McNulty's copy of an 1802 fortepiano serves Sonatas 1 through 18,"

https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/reviews/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-ronald-brautigam/

So Brautigam was using a copy of piano that Beethoven rejected for a French one that he also rejected! This is of historical interest, but should the average listener pay any attention to such experiments? Surely the biggest and best modern pianos get closer to producing the music Beethoven intended?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

larold said:


> He wrote the 9th symphony and Missa Solemnis, probably his two greatest and most powerful compositions, after he lost his hearing. Ditto the famous last 5 piano sonatas and final string quartet.
> 
> .


Is this true, or did he have some residual hearing and a hearing aid to help him? He certainly had pianos and sat at them and played them.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Is this true, or did he have some residual hearing and a hearing aid to help him? He certainly had pianos and sat at them and played them.


Those pianos were apparently in a horrible state of disrepair, which he didn't notice.

His hearing loss began quite early - around 1800, and by the 1820's, his hearing was impaired enough that he had to resort to "conversation books". So while he might not have been stone deaf, he was close to it.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Myriadi said:


> I like Lubimov's disc with the last three sonatas - the playing is very intelligent, the interpretations consistently interesting. He's playing a genuine 1828 instrument, an Alois Graff. There's also a disc with Lubimov playing Beethoven on a much earlier Erard piano, which features really nice interpretations, but I don't quite like the way the music was recorded.


Thanks for pointing this out - I wasn't aware of these recordings.

There's also an earlier Lubimov recording, on a Broadwood piano:









I haven't listened to it in years, though....


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Those pianos were apparently in a horrible state of disrepair, which he didn't notice.


Ah, I was somehow under the impression that he was always getting them fixed up. Thanks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven’s deafness varied somewhat from day to day but was always pretty severe. He had special sounding boards made for his piano(s) and sometimes held a pencil between his teeth and touched it to the piano to hear by bone conduction.

He still gave lessons, where he could do well enough by simply watching. In one bizarre story, he was giving a harmony lesson to the son of C.F. Hirsch, who was Albrechtsberger's grandson. The account is from Hirsch, who was an eyewitness. The boy made a mistake in voice leading. Beethoven, who was watching the boy’s hands carefully, was so angered that he bit the boy’s shoulder.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

larold said:


> _How can we know, what Beethoven intended? And how could Beethoven for that matter know? He could not hear the instruments in question._
> 
> Beethoven's hearing was in decline in the 1790s as a young man. He had tinnitus by 18i01 and said his deafness was "intolerable" by 1815; it worsened the last dozen years of his life.
> 
> ...


I agree with all this, but my point is, that Beethoven was unable to hear the difference between the fortepianos he had at his disposal in the last years of his life. So saying that this or that sonata was written with an Erard or a Graff or whatever in mind seems absurd to me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

There are now quite a variety of fortepiano performers doing the Mozart and Haydn Keyboard Sonatas, but Beethoven, not so much. There’s the complete Brautigam, but there should be more!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Even the wonderful replica fortepianos that Bilson, Brautigam, Lubimov and van Immerseel perform on are "tempermental" and are difficult to keep in tune, but when they are, for me, Mozart and Haydn Sonatas never sound better. They wrote for this instrument and it shows.

As for Beethoven, I don't find the fortepiano as convincing in his sonatas. I bet Beethoven had a more modern pianoforte sound in his head that he was writing for.

I definitely prefer a modern piano when listening to a Beethoven Sonata.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

To me the fortepiano is interesting but doesn't work for LvB. His conception was way beyond the puano he was writing for. A case of composing and waiting for the technology to catch up.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Oops, wrong thread. Sorry!


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## Vahe Sahakian (Mar 9, 2018)

Listening to Hammerklavier performed with a fortepiano is downright silly.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Vahe Sahakian said:


> Listening to Hammerklavier performed with a fortepiano is downright silly.


But why ????????


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hpowders said:


> As for Beethoven, I don't find the fortepiano as convincing in his sonatas. I bet Beethoven had *a more modern pianoforte sound* in his head that he was writing for.


Your use of the word "modern" sounds a bit too teleological in these ears.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

premont said:


> Your use of the word "modern" sounds a bit too teleological in these ears.


Beethoven seems to have always been looking for a greater volume of sound, more sustain, and a wider range. If that's accurate, then hpowders' comment seems pretty well-taken. All three of those things were in greater and greater evidence with the more "modern" pianos throughout Beethoven's life.​


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven seems to have always been looking for a greater volume of sound, more sustain, and a wider range. If that's accurate, then hpowders' comment seems pretty well-taken. All three of those things were in greater and greater evidence with the more "modern" pianos throughout Beethoven's life.​


I agree about the greater volume and the wider range, - I do not know about more sustain. But what about the other properties of the sound. Compared to a period fortepiano the modern grand has got a rather dull sound with few and weak partials. It is the partials which give the sound its specific character. What would Beethoven think about the sound of the modern grand? Nobody knows. Maybe he would dislike it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

A link for those who believe late Beethoven cannot be played on fortepiano.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Strangely, Brautigam's record of the last sonatas is today's half price download on eClassical.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Just to follow up on my OP, I purchased the Ronald Brautigam cycle on various period fortepianos and am enjoying it enormously. The sound quality is marvelous and I love the timbres of the various fortepianos. The book that comes with the CD set (and it is a very thick book) is filled with huge detail on each one of the sonatas as well as the evolving fortepiano technology of the period. Thanks for the suggestions. This was exactly what I was hoping for. :tiphat:


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Thank you (belated) Mai! I'm particularly interested in the Swafford passage you quoted. When I read about the extreme specification of articulations and pedaling, it reminds me of what I feel compelled to do using Sibelius notation software to get something approaching a sound ideal out of mediocre samples—trying to milk the best one can out of an inferior instrument. And that leads me to the same conclusion you reached: I imagine if Beethoven was around to hear the painstaking reproduction of his keyed nemeses and performances of same, he would likely pull his—or our—hair out!

Edit: Seems Ken and Powders lean that way too.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> ...Edit: Seems Ken and Powders lean that way too.


Beethoven puts a pinch of snuff on the back of his well-manicured hand. "My sonatas? On a piano of my period? Come come, my good man. I hardly think so. Modern instruments serve _so _much better, don't you think? Of course, that approach is rather charmingly authentic, one must admit." Lifts hand to nose, sniffs.

Well, that was actually a different Beethoven!


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> A link for those who believe late Beethoven cannot be played on fortepiano...


Using the largo is a bit of a cheat  Here's a modern piano from the outset:






In the first five minutes, anything to match that power, authority and variety on fortepiano?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mal said:


> In the first five minutes, anything to match that power, authority and variety on fortepiano?


Yes, of course the modern piano is louder and more powerful. But late Beethoven makes sense - can work well and be entirely satisfying and inspiring - on pianos of the type he had at his disposal. I like both and certainly most performances I enjoy are on modern pianos.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Another option besides Brautigam, which is excellent, is Malcolm Bilsen's set. There are some tuning issues (or maybe it's just being unused to non-well-tempered instruments) but it's a different perspective.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes, of course the modern piano is louder and more powerful. But late Beethoven makes sense - can work well and be entirely satisfying and inspiring - on pianos of the type he had at his disposal. I like both and *certainly most performances I enjoy are on modern pianos*.


Yes, I also enjoy most performances on modern piano, but that's because of the large number of pianists playing the modern piano and not because of the instruments.


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## shgclassical (Jan 27, 2019)

*Penelope Crawford plays opp.109-111 on Graf on Musica Omnia CD better than Lubimov.*



Myriadi said:


> I cordially dislike Brautigam. His interpretations are almost invariably very fast, and I find his interpretations completely devoid of thought or feeling - just showmanship. Unfortunately, the only other complete set I'm aware of is Badura-Skoda's, whose musical thinking is miles beyond Brautigam, but whose fingers aren't quite as nimble, and so there are mistakes here and there, and botched passages, some of them really bad. It's a shame.
> 
> I like Lubimov's disc with the last three sonatas - the playing is very intelligent, the interpretations consistently interesting. He's playing a genuine 1828 instrument, an Alois Graff. There's also a disc with Lubimov playing Beethoven on a much earlier Erard piano, which features really nice interpretations, but I don't quite like the way the music was recorded.


plays opp.109-11​


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## shgclassical (Jan 27, 2019)

I was recently comparing historical instrument recordings of late Beethoven sonatas after reading that the composer was constantly trying out new instruments at the time of the opp. 101-111. A pianist-colleague spoke very highly of Penelope Crawford's recording 
on Musica Omnia CD. It is quite exquisite, compared to Lubimov, who seems just a bit rough by comparison. I recommend it very highly


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's a recording of music on Beethoven's piano by Elly Ney.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

shgclassical said:


> I , who seems just a bit rough by comparison.


It is probably true that Crawford is smoother. I don't know why that should be a strength necessarily. And it's probably true that Lubimov is more ready to explore a disposition of the voices which creates more asperities. I don't know why that should be a weakness necessarily.

Listening to the Crawford I was interested in the sound of the piano. I can't see any note about its temperament, but I see that the recording was produced by Peter Watchorn, who knows about temperament.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I cordially dislike Brautigam. His interpretations are almost invariably very fast, and I find his interpretations completely devoid of thought or feeling - just showmanship._

I wouldn't go that far but I owned several of his selections and had similar feelings. His concept is highly virtuosic focused on prestidigitation and forward thrust. He was not as successful in my opinion when the music turned inward or required subtlety of expression.

One of my late cats once showed extreme interest in his playing; she once ran all over the house, then jumped up on the entertainment system when I played one of his sonatas, a cat that was otherwise quite old and staid, so there is evidence Brautigam's appeal goes across species.

I have no "favorite" fortepianist in this music. I enjoyed Malcolm Bilson from time to time; his approach was opposite Brautigam, sober and intellectual, more like Alfred Brendel or Paul Lewis. Way back in time a player named Anthony Newman did some of them on fortepiano to some acclaim as well.

I think, because of the possibilities of the modern piano, Beethoven's sonatas come across better on that instrument. I enjoy the sound of fortepianos though.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is what we do, isn't it? We feel our subjective preferences to be insights. Some people find Brautigam's Beethoven to be mere show but on what grounds? That he can play and tends towards slightly fast speeds, it seems. No "feeling" or "thought", they say, and I believe that that is what they find. There are so many second rate sets played on modern pianos that get praised and, for myself, I feel certain that Brautigam is better than any of them. He moves me and excites me as I might expect from Beethoven. I don't have time for sets of Beethoven sonatas that are not exceptional (for me that means like Kempff, Annie Fischer, Schnabel and Backhaus) but I do have time from Brautigam. Make of that what you will.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

larold said:


> Way back in time a player named Anthony Newman did some of them on fortepiano to some acclaim as well.


I assume that you mean this one:


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> A link for those who believe late Beethoven cannot be played on fortepiano.


Strange I like Fortepiano but I am sorry for my rudeness but it sounds like it is played in a cave. So harsh is the sound or is that just myself?


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> A link for those who believe late Beethoven cannot be played on fortepiano.


Extraordinary in every way.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

How about this one ?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

This set by Peter Serkin is very much worth hearing:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Zofia said:


> Strange I like Fortepiano but I am sorry for my rudeness but it sounds like it is played in a cave. So harsh is the sound or is that just myself?


No rudeness. I'm not so up on sound reproduction but the clip I linked to does sound a little thin compared with an MP3 on my iTunes (which is itself hardly perfect). BIS records are generally complimented for their sound and it seems to me that the instrument Brautigam used for that sonata has quite a big sound ... but perhaps not the most lovely/delicate?


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> How about this one ?


That's wild! I like it. Though he seems to focus largely on an apocalyptic aspect of the music, whereas Brautigam finds far more contrast and achieves a luminous transcendence, as well as a feverish intensity I think.


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