# Czech Orchestral Sound...



## otterhouse (Sep 6, 2007)

I love the sound of Czech orchestra's. Especially the very individual (vibrato!) wind players. 
Some people get nervous of it, but I'm glad most Czech orchestra's are so individual.
What is your opinion?

Some sound examples -> http://classicalspotify.blogspot.nl/2013/11/mas-rad-brahmse-czech-philharmonic-in.html

Greetings,

Rolf


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm not aware of any specific "Czech orchestral sound", but I liked the photo from your link:


----------



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I long felt that way about the wide vibrato employed by native Czech opera singers on some of the old Supraphon recordings from the Prague National Theatre etc.


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Yes, beautiful strings. I have a recording with Kletzki and the Czech Philharmonic performing Beethoven and it's otherworldly.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The Czech Philharmonic woodwinds are great. What most people don't realize is that Vienna isn't that far away. You can hear the same sort of sound in the Vienna Philharmonic too.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually, the Viena Philharmonic does not sound anything like the Czech Philharmonic , and their woodwinds have 
a totally different timbre , brass too . If you listen to the recordings of the Staatskapelle, Dresden made in the
Lucas church , it sounds somewhat more similar to the Czech PO, and Dresden is even closer to Czech border .
The Staatskapelle sounds somewhat different today in the recordings, mostly live , at the Semper Opera
when the stage is converted for orchestra concerts . The great horn player Peter Damm, principal horn in Dresden
for so long, is now retired . Unusual for a Germn horn player , he used a rather Czech style vibrato , which 
normally sounds out of place in Austro German repertoire, but he made it sound convincing .


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*To Valve Or Not To Valve*

superhorn,

I know that the trumpet players in many orchestras use valve instruments instead of pistons. I played with a German gentleman who played on a valve trumpet and it produced a slightly more mellow sound.

I know you are a horn player. Do you know what type of trumpets the Czech players use?

Note: I love your post and it was very insightful.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> Actually, the Viena Philharmonic does not sound anything like the Czech Philharmonic , and their woodwinds have
> a totally different timbre , brass too . If you listen to the recordings of the Staatskapelle, Dresden made in the
> Lucas church , it sounds somewhat more similar to the Czech PO, and Dresden is even closer to Czech border .
> The Staatskapelle sounds somewhat different today in the recordings, mostly live , at the Semper Opera
> ...


You are correct and we had an exchange on this subject once upon a time.
They used to all be different,just listen to recordings of French orchestras from sixty years ago.
But now they are mostly using German instruments so are becoming rather similar soundwise.
They will be all the same soon and like most things now you can only rue changes that loose individuality.
As for the wobbly eastern bloc type singers, thank the Lord that they are going !!


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm not sure which type the Czech brass players use, but the best known Czech maker of brass instruments
is Cerveny (CHER-ven-y .)


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

No, orchestral woodwind and brass sections do not sound alike at all. There have been changes in the way they 
sound over the years due to turnover in sections, but no internationalized sameness .
For example, german oboes have a much more pungent, reedy sound than American ones, which are much 
more blandly melifluous . 
It's a physical and acoustical impossibility for orchestras to sound alike, as they consist of different musicians
playing different makes of instruments in concert halls with different acoustical properties .
An orchestra sounds different when it plays in different concert halls . It will sound different when it plays in 
a warmly reverberant hall than in one with dry acoustics .
Today, the Chicago symphony sounds very different from the way it did when Solti was music director there ;
hardly any of the same musicians are left from those storied years under Solti . Ditto the New York Philharmonic 
today ; almost no musicians there are left from the Bernstein years .


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> No, orchestral woodwind and brass sections do not sound alike at all. There have been changes in the way they
> sound over the years due to turnover in sections, but no internationalized sameness .
> For example, german oboes have a much more pungent, reedy sound than American ones, which are much
> more blandly melifluous .
> ...


This is going to be the same discussion,or it would be.
You are mistaken in your beliefs and the best illustration is Denis Brain when he changed from a French to a German instrument. His comments are available for anyone to read and the sound changed completely.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

To add to the above,he changed to a British instrument not a German one.
On an interesting collection 0f recordings from 1944 to 1953 we can hear both the French instrument that Brain used during the earlier part of his career and the more flexible and robust-toned British instrument he changed to . This disc contains an earlier version of the Mozart K.417 concerto which allows a direct comparison between that and the famous later recording.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Years ago , a horn player friend of mine tried out my Conn 8d , and he still produced his own timbre ,completely 
different from mine, even though we both played Conn 8ds . 
This goes to show you that no two woodwind or brass players produce excatly the same timbre .
There are differences in embouchure and physioligy which mke it impossible for any two players to sound the same.
Ditto, entire orchestras . 
The claim that all or most orchestras today "sound the same " is a myth .


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> Years ago , a horn player friend of mine tried out my Conn 8d , and he still produced his own timbre ,completely
> different from mine, even though we both played Conn 8ds .
> This goes to show you that no two woodwind or brass players produce excatly the same timbre .
> There are differences in embouchure and physioligy which mke it impossible for any two players to sound the same.
> ...


You haven't answered my last post. Also I don't deal in myths only absolute proof which I gain through my ears.


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

moody said:


> You haven't answered my last post. Also I don't deal in myths only absolute proof which I gain through my ears.


Well, it's still translated and filtered through the biases of your personality... so, no that's not absolute proof. One's biggest illusions start right between their ears. When you can hear something detached from all personal inclinations... then your closer to absolute proof. This comment is based on the assumption that you're taking this personal, which I'm sure you are on some level, judging by the tone of your post.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Answered question*



moody said:


> You haven't answered my last post. Also I don't deal in myths only absolute proof which I gain through my ears.


I have read 'superhorns' post and it appears to me he did a great job of answering your question.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Well, it's still translated and filtered through the biases of your personality... so, no that's not absolute proof. One's biggest illusions start right between their ears. When you can hear something detached from all personal inclinations... then your closer to absolute proof. This comment is based on the assumption that you're taking this personal, which I'm sure you are on some level, judging by the tone of your post.


I need no comments about my tone thanks and suffer from no illusions.
Superhorn and I have had this none debate before,but to have a debate you have to have both parties involved and answering the points raised.
It doesn't help that one side talks about myths when the difference in sound in regard to different countries' orchestras was well documented and discussed ,although things are now changing to a standardised sound.The comments from members above say that they notice differences still.
You mention the Kletzki Beethoven recordings,they are old from the 60's I believe,are you telling me that you can hear no difference between the Czech Philharmonic and say the London Symphony ? There is a huge difference in sound and this is not governed as Superhorn seems to imagine by the players so much as the by the instruments they use.
Also I gave an easily checkable example in the case of the Dennis Brain recordings,now that you have listened to them and made the comparison what is your conclusion ?


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> I have read 'superhorns' post and it appears to me he did a great job of answering your question.


I brought up the example of Dennis Brain's change from a French to a British instrument and pointed out that this was a good example.
Everyone knows this artist and the difference is no myth,but so far Superhorn is not willing to comment.
As he is a horn player he must know the recording surely ,so it is strange that he can't acknowledge it.
By the way he's been embroiled in this very subject before apart from with me ,in 2010 and he used the myth post then.
But still you obviously must know the disc, what are your comments on the instruments ?


----------



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

The VPO play horns in F, which have a richer sound than the usual instruments in E-flat.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*I Must Be a Twit*

Interesting. Someone has listened to a recording and I am suppose to take their word over that of a professional horn player. I must be some sort of a "twit".


----------



## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

GGluek said:


> The VPO play horns in F, which have a richer sound than the usual instruments in E-flat.


I thought that the horn in F is the usual instrument nowadays.

Best regards, Dr


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

moody said:


> I need no comments about my tone thanks and suffer from no illusions.
> Superhorn and I have had this none debate before,but to have a debate you have to have both parties involved and answering the points raised.
> It doesn't help that one side talks about myths when the difference in sound in regard to different countries' orchestras was well documented and discussed ,although things are now changing to a standardised sound.The comments from members above say that they notice differences still.
> You mention the Kletzki Beethoven recordings,they are old from the 60's I believe,are you telling me that you can hear no difference between the Czech Philharmonic and say the London Symphony ? There is a huge difference in sound and this is not governed as Superhorn seems to imagine by the players so much as the by the instruments they use.
> Also I gave an easily checkable example in the case of the Dennis Brain recordings,now that you have listened to them and made the comparison what is your conclusion ?


I'm not saying there isn't a difference. My post was aimed at your comment of how you only deal in absolute proof....

You're moody, moody.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> Interesting. Someone has listened to a recording and I am suppose to take their word over that of a professional horn player. I must be some sort of a "twit".


Any twittiness would be attached to the sense of the "Someone has listened to *a*..." statement, which can be viewed as an attempt to minimize the value of experience. "Professional horn players" are famously arrogant folk; to be otherwise would preclude attempting the instrument.

Unfortunately (for me) I don't have the 'live' experience to judge orchestral wind sound. In recordings, the sound engineers - and recording technology - seem to have the dominant influence.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Trumpet Players*



Ukko said:


> Any twittiness would be attached to the sense of the "Someone has listened to *a*..." statement, which can be viewed as an attempt to minimize the value of experience. "Professional horn players" are famously arrogant folk; to be otherwise would preclude attempting the instrument.
> 
> Unfortunately (for me) I don't have the 'live' experience to judge orchestral wind sound. In recordings, the sound engineers - and recording technology - seem to have the dominant influence.


Actually it is the trumpet players who are the arrogant ones. Like the famous non-trumpet player story.

How many trumpet players does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Twenty-one. One to screw in the light bulb. Twenty to say, "Hey man, I could of done a better job than that." :trp:

We bassoon players do not call them brassholes for nothing.

Yeah, Yeah, I know there are also some nasty bassoon player stories.

Like why are bassoon players so wierd? Blowing through such a small reed for such a large instrument cuts off the flow of blood to the brain. 

Edit: I just thought of a wild incident I had with a trumpet player. I was at an orchestra rehearsal and we rehearsing the "Mars" movement from _The Planets_ (That may have had something to do with the incident). There are times when you are sitting in the back of the orchestra when your view of the conductor may be blocked. The polite thing to do is to ask this person to move slightly to the left or right. This sort of thing happens all the time during a rehearsal and musicians politely ask and comply all of the time. Well I was in front of a trumpet player and he got my attention by whacking me on my head with his trumpet. When I expressed my irritation with his actions, he threatened to beat me up in the parking lot after the rehearsal. We are still members of two groups. As a result we are no longer on speaking terms. I ignore him and he ignores me.


----------



## otterhouse (Sep 6, 2007)

superhorn said:


> The claim that all or most orchestras today "sound the same " is a myth .


Depends also on the freedom of the solo players in the orchestra...

R.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Interesting. Someone has listened to a recording and I am suppose to take their word over that of a professional horn player. I must be some sort of a "twit".


No,you are supposed to listen to the recording. It matters not whether the person is a horn player or an organist,a fact is a fact and until I discovered that Superhor4n has this argument annually with somebody I was quite aware from many articles and conversations that my claims were correct. Do you have no collection of recordings that cover the years from the 1940's ?
Whether you are a twit is I am sure open to conjecture,but I would say that the secret is to take nobody's word but to find out for yourself.
I am fortunate--maybe--to have been listening and attending concerts over that period and the change has been considerable.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> I'm not saying there isn't a difference. My post was aimed at your comment of how you only deal in absolute proof....
> 
> You're moody, moody.


In a debate proof is to be put forward or how to you win a debate for heavens sake ?
I most certainly get moody when corrected by someone who has no right to do so.
Incidentally there is a rule here about commenting on other peoples' posting style unless in a positive fashion.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

(never mind, posted by accident)


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> (never mind, posted by accident)


AHA! It's ad hominems like this that must be punished with firm severity!


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

"In a debate proof is to be put forward or how to you win a debate for heavens sake ?
I most certainly get moody when corrected by someone who has no right to do so.
Incidentally there is a rule here about commenting on other peoples' posting style unless in a positive fashion."

Okay, moody....


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Without question the easy availability of recording in recent decades has begun to affect considerably the stability of national styles.With the wide diffusion of radios and recordings since World War II musical culture has become remarkably homogenised ,
Instead of being principally influenced by the musicians of his native country a young player today is quite familiar with the biggest stars on the international circuit. As a result national distinctions of instrumental and vocal style are fast breaking down----another reason why the older recordings have become an irreplaceable repository of unique performances.

What we have ,all over the world in every aspect of music, is something that can be described as The New Eclecticism.
A few exceptions to the contrary ,it is hard to tell the difference between a young American and a young English or Hungarian conductor.....even symphony orchestras are beginning to sound alike no matter where their point of origin.

David Hamilton.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't recall hearing Brain's early recordings on a French instrument . But I have heard the famous
one of the Brahms horn trio with his father Aubrey , Adolf Busch and Rudlolf Serkin, where he uses one of those
old French models .
Possibly the antiquated recording may be to blame, but th e elder Brain's instrument sounds
very thin , completely lacking the round, dark timbre that we associate with the music of Brahms .
It's a narrow bore piston valve horn .


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> I don't recall hearing Brain's early recordings on a French instrument . But I have heard the famous
> one of the Brahms horn trio with his father Aubrey , Adolf Busch and Rudlolf Serkin, where he uses one of those
> old French models .
> Possibly the antiquated recording may be to blame, but th e elder Brain's instrument sounds
> ...


Exactly the point I was making,that's the reason he decided to change.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Most horn players today use a double horn in F and B flat . The Vienna horn is a single f instrument,
but it comes with a b flat crook which can be attached for greater accuracy in high-lying parts .
The most recent horn to come out is a triple horn in f, b flat and high f for the most difficult high-lying parts .
It has THREE separate layers of tubing nd two thumb valves to switch it to the other horns .
I totally disagree with the statement by critic David Hamilton, who passed away seveal months ago .
But I rarely agreed with him about anything .


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

superhorn said:


> Most horn players today use a double horn in F and B flat . The Vienna horn is a single f instrument,
> but it comes with a b flat crook which can be attached for greater accuracy in high-lying parts .
> The most recent horn to come out is a triple horn in f, b flat and high f for the most difficult high-lying parts .
> It has THREE separate layers of tubing nd two thumb valves to switch it to the other horns .
> ...


Me neither. The world has shrunken, but that doesn't mean culture and history has been forgotten. Of course the "mainstream" circuit is becoming more and more homogenous... not everyone chooses that path. Matter of fact, choices of diving into the many cultures of the world are much more available today than ever.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> Most horn players today use a double horn in F and B flat . The Vienna horn is a single f instrument,
> but it comes with a b flat crook which can be attached for greater accuracy in high-lying parts .
> The most recent horn to come out is a triple horn in f, b flat and high f for the most difficult high-lying parts .
> It has THREE separate layers of tubing nd two thumb valves to switch it to the other horns .
> ...


There's a big surprise all round. Nobody on TC ever agrees with anyone whose statements are different from theirs.
Also you are not quite correct in your comments on Mr. Hamilton.
He was co-producer of the Metropolitan Opera Historic Recordings. On the faculty of the Juillard School,NY, taught at the Aspen music School and various summer institutes of the Music Critics Association.
The second paragraph of my post was not in fact by Hamilton but by a conductor. No matter, the change in sound is a fact and no amount of disagreement will change that.
I'm bored with this and with entrenched attitudes that mislead people who might want to know the truth.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Me neither. The world has shrunken, but that doesn't mean culture and history has been forgotten. Of course the "mainstream" circuit is becoming more and more homogenous... not everyone chooses that path. Matter of fact, choices of diving into the many cultures of the world are much more available today than ever.


We were not discussing cultures but orchestral sound and it isn't even open to argument,but a fact..


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> We were not discussing cultures but orchestral sound and it isn't even open to argument,but a fact..


I'm not sure what _Vesuvius_ means by ""mainstream" circuit", but if he means that the major orchestras tend to have a sameness of sound, you two are actually in agreement. His last sentence is a non-sequitur, but could be a reference to 'regional/provincial' orchestras, whose musicians use obsolescent instruments?


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

moody said:


> We were not discussing cultures but orchestral sound and it isn't even open to argument,but a fact..


I'm done conversing with you. It's becoming a chore.



Ukko said:


> I'm not sure what _Vesuvius_ means by ""mainstream" circuit", but if he means that the major orchestras tend to have a sameness of sound, you two are actually in agreement. His last sentence is a non-sequitur, but could be a reference to 'regional/provincial' orchestras, whose musicians use obsolescent instruments?


Thanks you.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Welcome to the club*



Vesuvius said:


> I'm done conversing with you. It's becoming a chore.


Welcome to the club.

I now know the secret to his insights. He not only listens to recordings, he listens to old recordings. That is why he in an authority on playing the horn.

I better back off or he will start lecturing me on the types of bassoon reeds I should be using.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> Welcome to the club.
> 
> I now know the secret to his insights. He not only listens to recordings, he listens to old recordings. That is why he in an authority on playing the horn.
> 
> I better be careful or he will start lecturing me on the types of bassoon reeds I should be using.


Most of the recordings are younger than he is, and from the 50s on many are in 'good sound'. There is no other way to determine _for oneself_ whether or not orchestras used to sound different from each other. Newer recordings may inform as to whether that is still the case. It is only slightly more difficult to find recordings by 'provincial' orchestras, and compare their sound to both of those other samplings. Failing this research, we are reduced to accepting the opinions of others - who may be Lebrechtian in their judgements.

As long as you make your own reeds, _arpeggio_, our only criterion must be your results.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I remember reading David Hamilton's reviews of wide variety of repertoire all the way back when I was a
teenager in the long defunct High Fidelity magazine, and I almost alwys disagreed with him on everything.
He was always pooh-poohing recordings I loved and praising ones I thought overrated, dismissing some 
truly great orchestras as less than first rate ,and dismissing works I love .
Some years ago, when he was on the now defunct but very interesting WQXR program First Hearing, where
a panel of three critics or performing musicians would evaluate new recordings, or parts of them since it was only
a hour long show , without being told the identity of the performers on the recordings until they have commented,
by the moderator , Hamiltron commented on a performnce of a French chmber work I deon't recall the name of 
with a prominent oboe part . He angrily lamented that the oboist did not have the traditional French oboe sound and used this as
an example of how orchestras had now come to sound alike .
But it was an American chmber ensemble, and I could hear that the oboist had the traditional American oboe
sound, which lacks the reediness of European oboists . Pretty ironic, eh ?
He had the mindset that sees all orchestras and instrumentalists s sounding alike . I don't . 
The moderator , the late Lloyd Moss, a WQXR veteran who passed wy only recently , would just announce the work being
played , and then wait until the panel had made their comments to identify the performers .
In some cases , when an obscure work was being heard , Moss would ask the panel to guess the identity of the composer .
It was always a very interesting, if sometimes irritating program , and I miss it .


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> I'm done conversing with you. It's becoming a chore.
> 
> Thanks you.


Well I'm distraught and there I was expecting something good to come out.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Welcome to the club.
> 
> I now know the secret to his insights. He not only listens to recordings, he listens to old recordings. That is why he in an authority on playing the horn.
> 
> I better back off or he will start lecturing me on the types of bassoon reeds I should be using.


Is this what you are down to,because you apparently play the horn somewhere in a small way it certainly makes you no authority.
Your post above shows that you have lost the debate as you have descended to rudeness.
Working by your rules we can't comment unless we are masters of whatever instrument is involved.
You are arguing against a universally known fact,but apparently can't handle things.
Anymore rudeness and I shall complain about you,either back up your point of view with some evidence or drop it.
Say6ing that you think that your pointof view is right is not evidence.

This is for Superhorn in fact---pass it on to him wont you.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Welcome to the club.
> 
> I now know the secret to his insights. He not only listens to recordings, he listens to old recordings. That is why he in an authority on playing the horn.
> 
> I better back off or he will start lecturing me on the types of bassoon reeds I should be using.


I presume from what you've had to say that you listen to no recordings at all.
Your comment is childish and has no connection to anything.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Promotion to Childish Twit*

Oh goody. I have been promoted to a childish twit who never listens to recordings. (Apparently he forgot the time he sent me a PM where he accused me of being a twit.)


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Oh goody. I have been promoted to a childish twit who never listens to recordings. (Apparently he forgot the time he sent me a PM where he accused me of being a twit.)


Are you making things up as you go along ? I have no memory of any communication with you and can't imagine why I would bother, but no doubt you can produce this PM.
I am amused by the depths you have descended to, insults are the last resort of a desperate man.
"Twit" was not used by me ,neither was "childish", neither did I claim expertise on the horn.
The surprise to me was that Superhorn as a horn player didn't appear to possess all Dennis Brain's recordings. Dennis Brain was a famous horn player by the way.
This thread was about Czech orchestral sound we must remind ourselves. If you listened to some of the old recordings of the orchestra under Talich and compare them with their recent recordings you would hear a huge difference.
But to do this you would need to have access to some old recordings and some knowledge of the past--and to have attended concerts of course.


----------

