# Franz Schubert



## manueelster

In the threads I have read there are people complaining about Mozart's music, Beethoven's or even Bach's. However I have never seen a post of somebody that hates Schubert's music. Is it possible? Can you recommend something really awesome of his work? I haven´t found yet something that changes my life among his works.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Winterreise


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## Ukko

manueelster said:


> In the threads I have read there are people complaining about Mozart's music, Beethoven's or even Bach's. However I have never seen a post of somebody that hates Schubert's music. Is it possible? Can you recommend something really awesome of his work? I haven´t found yet something that changes my life among his works.


Any particular reason you expect listening to music will change your life? If the _String Quintet in C_ changes your life, I'd be interested in why.


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## manueelster

With "changing my life" I just meant, for example, that I can´t wait to get home and listen once and again the same piece or that I can't get it out of my head for several days. This kind of stuff changes my (daily) life. This systematically happens to me with other composers.


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## Ukko

manueelster said:


> With "changing my life" I just meant, for example, that I can´t wait to get home and listen once and again the same piece or that I can't get it out of my head for several days. This kind of stuff changes my (daily) life. This systematically happens to me with other composers.


OK, that makes sense. That quintet doesn't stick with you?


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## Ramako




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## DavidA

Schubert's music doesn't change my life but it certainly enriches it. 

The work I tend to play more than any other is the piano sonata D960. This really IS awesome music!


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## ptr

DavidA said:


> Schubert's music doesn't change my life but it certainly enriches it.


The first time I heard Fritz Wunderlich's singing "Die Schöne Müllerin" on a disc with Hubert Giesen (DG) my life changed, before that moment I did not care much for "Art Songs", but Wunderlich's lively voice just won me over! I'm still very selective in what I like and not in this genre, but everything I've heard sung by Wunderlich has made me a better person!

/ptr


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## moody

If you are expecting Mahlerian or Tchaikovsky type crescendos you won't find them in Schubert.
But he wrote a)very pleasant type music such as the ever present "Trout" Quintet. b) quite serious music such as "Gesang der Geister",the "Great" Symphony No.9,the D Minor String Quartet with the "Death and the Maiden" variations. the Mass In E Flat,the Tantum Ergo,etc. Also of course a great deal of very good piano music.
But the greatest thing about Schubert by far is the huge number of lieder that he produced.
He most certainly did not invent the German art song but he raised it to new and extraordinary heights.
He seemed to have the knack of choosing the right poets to set to music and the depth of of vision into the human mind is amazing.
From the comparative misery of "Der Winterreise" to the boy in love in "Die Schoene Muellerin".
If unfortunately you are not keen on vocal music there is a problem here. But like ptr above try to persuade yourself!
As a life long Schubert lover with rows and rows of lieder recordings that is where you find Schubertian crescendos, and you should hurry home to listen again and again.


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## DavidA

Schubert's late quartets are also remarkable. And the string quintet. Utterly sublime!


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## Kieran

Der Doppelganger. Play it! You'll feel like he's in the room...


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## manueelster

Great suggestions! Actually I enjoy so much vocal music. Thanks


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## Ukko

Kieran said:


> Der Doppelganger. Play it! You'll feel like he's in the room...


But he is; barely outside your vision, turning as you turn.


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## Alydon

manueelster said:


> With "changing my life" I just meant, for example, that I can´t wait to get home and listen once and again the same piece or that I can't get it out of my head for several days. This kind of stuff changes my (daily) life. This systematically happens to me with other composers.


When I began to listen to a huge amount of classical music I certainly felt the same as yourself in the life - long journey we all here seem set out on in the realms of classical music. Actually, Schubert wasn't at first one of the composers I had in my top five or so at first, but gradually his music seeped into my conciousness and one by one the piano music, lieder, chamber music etc all made their way into my daily listening. I for one found Schubert's music difficult at first and the paradox I find is that it is music written by a young man but for mature ears.

Some music can change your life, but I would prefer the phrase, 'life affirming,' and Schubert's music contains many things which will mirror your own emotions, fears and life experiences. Schubert isn't in my opinion an outward composer as say Beethoven maybe is in much of his work, but touches on things that can't be explained or easily put into words.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Schubert easily ranks among my favorite/top ten composers. I came to love his work almost immediately... beginning with the _Trout Quintet_, the _Death and the Maiden Quartet_, the _Impromptus_ (performed by Brendel), and _Symphonies 8 & 9_. Most of all, however, it was the lieder, as Moody has suggested, that brought his genius alive for me. _Die Schöne Müllerin_ sung by Fritz Wunderlich sealed my passion for lieder. Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Gerald Moore... as well as Thomas Quasthoff (among others) performing _Schwanengesang_ are as essential to me as any Beethoven symphony. Winterreise remains Schubert's masterwork IMO... a work that rivals the greatest works of music in any genre. I must have somewhere near 10 or 12 different recordings of this great cycle. And these are but the great cycles. There are any number of great collections of Schubert lieder:














































As I delved further into Schubert's music through the lieder, I also began to appreciate the genius of his other music as well. There are any number of marvelous chamber music works... look especially for Rostropovich' performance of the _Sonata for Arpeggione_. Then there are the piano sonatas... which are often grossly under-appreciated as they lack the virtuosity of Beethoven... but listen to the late ones especially. Give Symphony 5 a listen... a marvelous youthful work. Look for the music from Rosamunde... especially this recording:










Few composers have been more life-changing/life-affirming for me than Schubert.


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## SimonNZ

ptr said:


> The first time I heard Fritz Wunderlich's singing "Die Schöne Müllerin" on a disc with Hubert Giesen (DG) my life changed, before that moment I did not care much for "Art Songs", but Wunderlich's lively voice just won me over! I'm still very selective in what I like and not in this genre, but everything I've heard sung by Wunderlich has made me a better person!
> 
> /ptr


Have you heard the recording Wunderlich made with Kurt Heinz Stolze? Even better than his DG, imo.









Though my personal favorite Schone Mullerin is Ian Bostridge with Graham Johnson in the Hyperion edition:


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## peeyaj

Amen to all of the posts here. Schubert is my favorite composer bar none.

I just want to mention his undiscovered gems: the partsongs and the piano four hands. The partsongs are such sublime music that it reaches extraordinary heights of sublimity. Gesang der Geister über den Wassern is one of my favorite piece of music.






Schubert is the greatest composer for piano four hands. His Fantasy in F minor is the greatest ever written.


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## SimonNZ

Seconding StLuke's recommendations of great lieder recordings, and while there are dozens more that might be mentioned I'd like to draw attention to just a couple more:

The Ian Bostridge "25 Lieder" collection with Julius Drake on piano from 1998. I think this may well be the finest, most exciting one-disc sampler of Schubert from the last twenty years. I've purchased many copies to give as presents to people beginning with Schubert, with Bostridge or just with classical and its always been well recieved. Its also highly praised by the critics and was justly put into EMIs Great Artists Of The Century series.















And Elly Ameling, mentioned before, has made many wonderful Schubert albums, but one that gets neglected and is something quite special is one of the collections she made with Jorg Demus, this one with Demus playing a fortepiano. Its no mere gimmic, the change in approach brings a freshness to the recording and the interaction between voice and piano that has you hearing the songs as if for the first time. The current cd version (with added Schumann) looks like this:


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## Bradius

I never even knew about lieder until I heard Schubert. Now I'm addicted!


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## DavidA

The great leider cycle is Wintereisse which is guaranteed to wring the heart more than any other. Schubert told his friends he had composed some 'terrible songs' and when he sang them they were dismayed at the mood. They end in almost nothingness like Mahler's Song of the Earth. I have several recordings but the one which really catches the mood of the songs more than any other (for me) is the one Peter Schreier did live with Richter. The voice is drained to reflect the despair of the poet and there is an almost crazy hue cast over all the songs. Richter's accompaniments are wonderful, seeking the beauty of the piano writing to contrast with the madness of the singing voice. It catches the mood of the work better than any other for me. Of course, that is a highly subjective statement when there are so many distinguished versions in the catalogue. One problem is that this version was recoded live in front of an audience who seemed to be afflicted with the flu. You want to throttle the coughers!


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## peeyaj

DavidA said:


> The great leider cycle is Wintereisse which is guaranteed to wring the heart more than any other. Schubert told his friends he had composed some 'terrible songs' and when he sang them they were dismayed at the mood. They end in almost nothingness like Mahler's Song of the Earth. I have several recordings but the one which really catches the mood of the songs more than any other (for me) is the one Peter Schreier did live with Richter. The voice is drained to reflect the despair of the poet and there is an almost crazy hue cast over all the songs. Richter's accompaniments are wonderful, seeking the beauty of the piano writing to contrast with the madness of the singing voice. It catches the mood of the work better than any other for me. Of course, that is a highly subjective statement when there are so many distinguished versions in the catalogue. One problem is that this version was recoded live in front of an audience who seemed to be afflicted with the flu. You want to throttle the coughers!


As a great admirer of Winterriese, I never did know that Richter accompanied this cycle. I wonder how would he be compared to the more established accompanists: Moore and Demus?


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## ptr

SimonNZ said:


> Have you heard the recording Wunderlich made with Kurt Heinz Stolze? Even better than his DG, imo.


Unfortunatly not, I will have to look for it!



> Though my personal favorite Schone Mullerin is Ian Bostridge with Graham Johnson in the Hyperion edition:


I'm going to say something very stupid, Bostridge has a lovely voice but I really don't like it when He sings in German, feels detached some how. It is not as bad as when I heard a very high brow US tenor (That I'll let be unnamed) sing Schubert and Schumann at a recital, I had to get up and leave in the mid concert because his southern US accented German was to much to endure... I know that I'm a bit conservative in this matter, for me singing is not only about having a fine voice, no it is as much about conveying the language and content of the text in a convincing way ... this making me quite selective in my choice of singers to listen to!

/ptr


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## DavidA

peeyaj said:


> As a great admirer of Winterriese, I never did know that Richter accompanied this cycle. I wonder how would he be compared to the more established accompanists: Moore and Demus?


Richter is predictably different. The tempi are slower, for one thing except in 'The crow' which is faster. It is certainly a mesmeric performance, coughs and all!


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## StlukesguildOhio

I'm going to say something very stupid, Bostridge has a lovely voice but I really don't like it when He sings in German, feels detached some how. It is not as bad as when I heard a very high brow US tenor (That I'll let be unnamed) sing Schubert and Schumann at a recital, I had to get up and leave in the mid concert because his southern US accented German was to much to endure... I know that I'm a bit conservative in this matter, for me singing is not only about having a fine voice, no it is as much about conveying the language and content of the text in a convincing way ... this making me quite selective in my choice of singers to listen to!

That pretty much eliminates both Joan Sutherland and Maria Callas... as neither sang any Australian or Greek operas that I'm aware of. It also wipes out Kathleen Ferrier's stunning _Song of the Earth_, and a great deal more.


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## JCarmel

Brigitte Fassbaender has recorded the 'Wintereisse' and 'Schwangesang' cycles...both of which I personally think are very fine. 
And her cd recorded in the 'Hyperion Schubert Edition' is one of my favourite lieder discs. She excels as an interpreter of the text as well as singing with great feeling.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Hy...2ZF5/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1361985749&sr=8-6


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## Alydon

Listened to _Wintereisse_ today sung by Hans Hotter with Gerald Moore, a dark, searching performance recorded in 1954 and among the greatest versions.


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## ptr

StlukesguildOhio said:


> That pretty much eliminates both Joan Sutherland and Maria Callas... as neither sang any Australian or Greek operas that I'm aware of. It also wipes out Kathleen Ferrier's stunning _Song of the Earth_, and a great deal more.


Indeed, I do not care for either Sutherland or Callas, I can acknowledge the qualities of their voices but I do not care a tiniest bit for their performances (I don't care for Birgit "La" Nilsson either, which is a similar voice from closer to home!). 
Kathleen Ferrier might well be the grand exception to my "rule", I can actually more than stand her voice and diction, but that is surly only down to the fact that I was conditioned to her Voice from an early age.. 

/ptr


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## moody

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I'm going to say something very stupid, Bostridge has a lovely voice but I really don't like it when He sings in German, feels detached some how. It is not as bad as when I heard a very high brow US tenor (That I'll let be unnamed) sing Schubert and Schumann at a recital, I had to get up and leave in the mid concert because his southern US accented German was to much to endure... I know that I'm a bit conservative in this matter, for me singing is not only about having a fine voice, no it is as much about conveying the language and content of the text in a convincing way ... this making me quite selective in my choice of singers to listen to!
> 
> That pretty much eliminates both Joan Sutherland and Maria Callas... as neither sang any Australian or Greek operas that I'm aware of. It also wipes out Kathleen Ferrier's stunning _Song of the Earth_, and a great deal more.


But he's right,Peter Pears German is very poor and makes his highly praised lieder recordings beyond the pale to me.
Pity as Benjamin Britten is a wonderful accompanist.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> But he's right,Peter Pears German is very poor and makes his highly praised lieder recording beyond the pale to me.
> Pity as Benjamin Britten is a wonderful accompanist.


Interesting that Schreier's English is also abominable as in his recording of Britten's Serenade.

I am not a good linguist so things like Corelli's bastardised French in Carmen or Pears' poor German does not worry me. However, I have McCreesh's Haydn Creation in English which is spoilt by two foreign soloists whose English is not clear.


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## Vaneyes

I guess science and moderator(s) can get cracking on another Composer Guestbooks thread merge. 

http://www.talkclassical.com/2570-franz-schubert.html


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## SiegendesLicht

ptr said:


> I'm going to say something very stupid, Bostridge has a lovely voice but I really don't like it when He sings in German, feels detached some how. It is not as bad as when I heard a very high brow US tenor (That I'll let be unnamed) sing Schubert and Schumann at a recital, I had to get up and leave in the mid concert because his southern US accented German was to much to endure... I know that I'm a bit conservative in this matter, for me singing is not only about having a fine voice, no it is as much about conveying the language and content of the text in a convincing way ... this making me quite selective in my choice of singers to listen to!


I've heard Schubert interpretations by Bostridge and Fischer-Diskau, but I still enjoy the first one a tiny little bit more. That "25 Lieder" CD is a real gem. And well, of course I am not the ultimate expert on German phonetics, but personally I do not hear a slightest trace of accent in Bostridge's German.


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## Ukko

SiegendesLicht said:


> I've heard Schubert interpretations by Bostridge and Fischer-Diskau, but I still enjoy the first one a tiny little bit more. That "25 Lieder" CD is a real gem. And well, of course I am not the ultimate expert on German phonetics, but personally I do not hear a slightest trace of accent in Bostridge's German.


 He sounds like an East Anglian Brit to me.


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## SiegendesLicht

Hilltroll72 said:


> He sounds like an East Anglian Brit to me.


When he sings in English or when he sings in German? 

OK, I'll have to ask some better experts than me, what they think of his pronunciation.


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## ptr

SiegendesLicht said:


> I've heard Schubert interpretations by Bostridge and Fischer-Diskau, but I still enjoy the first one a tiny little bit more. That "25 Lieder" CD is a real gem. And well, of course I am not the ultimate expert on German phonetics, but personally I do not hear a slightest trace of accent in Bostridge's German.


I did not write that the problem (for me) was Bostridge's German pronunciation (like it actually was with the American I mentioned), but rather (I might have been unclear in my thought), that I fell that he is detached, like singing comes so easy to him that it becomes just another day at the office and not something that is worth committing murder for (I know stark polarities, exaggerations to make a clear point). When I listen to someone like Wunderlich or Schreier or Thomas Quasthoff for that I feel that their Voice's seduce me in to believe that every word is important in a way that I've yet to hear any non native German speaking singer convey. 
(There is a Jazz Album with Quasthoff on DG where he sings in English and it is awful! But anyone who has heard him sing Schubert Lieder or Mahler live know that he is a bloody miracle that brings tears in to your eyes and shivers down your spine! Bostridge singing in English gives me the same shivers, Britten's folks song arrangements or some Noel Coward is just a joy with him!  )

Singing Lieder is all about acting with Your voice and perhaps (my amateurish conclusion), acting convincingly in a non native language is not as simple as singing the song truly beautifully!?

/ptr


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> He sounds like an East Anglian Brit to me.


I can tell you're an expert when it comes to British accents---the man's a Londoner.


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## DavidA

ptr said:


> (There is a Jazz Album with Quasthoff on DG where he sings in English and it is awful! But anyone who has heard him sing Schubert Lieder or Mahler live know that he is a bloody miracle that brings tears in to your eyes and shivers down your spine! Bostridge singing in English gives me the same shivers, Britten's folks song arrangements or some Noel Coward is just a joy with him!  )
> 
> /ptr


There is a recording of Birget Nilsson singing I could have danced all night. And woe to anyone who refuses her, you think!


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## Ukko

moody said:


> I can tell you're an expert when it comes to British accents---the man's a Londoner.


 London is in the East Anglian Belt.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> I can tell you're an expert when it comes to British accents---the man's a Londoner.


Actually the London and East Anglian accent are quite similar.


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## Ukko

DavidA said:


> Actually the London and East Anglian accent are quite similar.


Back when East Anglian was only one of several sorts of 'English', Londoners spoke East Anglian. The Oxfordian Noonwitch could verify.


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> London is in the East Anglian Belt.


Ihere is no East AnglianBelt. East Anglia covers places like Norwich. Ipswicn,cambridge.
Is there any particular reason for this at all ?


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## moody

DavidA said:


> Actually the London and East Anglian accent are quite similar.


Oh yes, the singing postman sounds just like a Londoner doesn't he /


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> Back when East Anglian was only one of several sorts of 'English', Londoners spoke East Anglian. The Oxfordian Noonwitch could verify.


I don't think Mr.Bostridge was around in those days.


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## moody

The bleakest version that I know is the 1948 live broadcast recording from Cologne with Peter Anders and Guenther Weissenborn.
This was recorded on magnetic tape so sounds very fine.
Equally sad and weary is Josef Greindl and Hertha Klust (DGG 1957),the great bass seems to be gazing into an empty void. Unfortunately this in not available at present.
Third we have the Hotter/Moore ,1955 recording.
These are my choices although there are others with much to give.


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## peeyaj

What's a German accent?  Vagner, Volksvagon


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## hreichgott

The Trout quintet is a fantastic part of my life. My spouse and I make up 2/5 of a Trout quintet and someday I hope we will find 3 other people and perform it.

Two pieces of Schubert have seriously interrupted my life with their demands for attention.
I heard the Piano Sonata in A minor D. 845 and could not rest until I had found the score and read through it.
The "Unfinished" Symphony is not among my favorites at present, but for a couple of months while I was in high school, it rendered me unable to engage in any other activities.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> Oh yes, the singing postman sounds just like a Londoner doesn't he /


Having a father who came from London and family who lived there, I got quite well acquainted with the London accent. When I met folks from East Anglia I found their accents similar.

PS Are you an expert of everything, including accents?


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## moody

DavidA said:


> Having a father who came from London and family who lived there, I got quite well acquainted with the London accent. When I met folks from East Anglia I found their accents similar.
> 
> PS Are you an expert of everything, including accents?


Well of course I'm an expert ON everything, but accents are picked out by listening carefully---you know the same way you are supposed to listen to music .Also half the people living in East Anglia are from London anyway,
You claimed at one point i seem to remember to be not far off my age.In which case you must remember the singing postman---you didn't answer yesterday but are you seriously suggesting that he sounded like a Londoner?


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## DavidA

It so long since I heard him I cannot remember. It was on children's favourites, a junior classic FM of the day.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> Well of course I'm an expert ON everything,


Qualified or self-appointed expert?


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## moody

DavidA said:


> Qualified or self-appointed expert?


Not that old one please! The record store men and the concert hall men never asked me for my qualifications.


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## DavidA

DavidA said:


> Qualified or self-appointed expert?


Is that fortune smiling on you?


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## DavidA

moody said:


> Not that old one please! The record store men and the concert hall men never asked me for my qualifications.


Mind you, the record store men and concert hall men never asked me for my qualifications, either!


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## OboeKnight

Heard Schubert's 9th performed by the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra Saturday Night....excellent. love that symphony, although it gets extremely repetitive with the themes.


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## Avey

Glad we could get back on point


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## Mordred

If you have the time listen to the complete symphonies 1-9 with Zubin Mehta and the Israeli philharmonic. It's a great journey: 1-4 are simple, melodic and enjoyable then the 5th onward get more intense and of course ending with the unfinished and the awesome 9th.


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## Avey

Got Sir Georg Solti's recording of the 9th on vinyl yesterday. Vienna Philharmonic, 1981.

While I've only heard two other recordings of the 9th, I thought Solti's finale was rather subdued. 
The rest was terrific, but the ending - anticlimatic, IMO.

Anyone have thoughts/similar impressions?


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## KenOC

There is some issue with the final chord of the 9th. From Arkivmusic: "Note that Harnoncourt, and as I recall, Solti with the Vienna Philharmonic before him, ends the symphony with a diminuendo on the final chord. I have always found this a bit strange and underwhelming. Neither Karajan nor Abbado follow this practice and hold the final chord _forte_ to the end."

I've heard the ending done that way and it is, indeed, underwhelming.


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## Johnnie Burgess

KenOC said:


> There is some issue with the final chord of the 9th. From Arkivmusic: "Note that Harnoncourt, and as I recall, Solti with the Vienna Philharmonic before him, ends the symphony with a diminuendo on the final chord. I have always found this a bit strange and underwhelming. Neither Karajan nor Abbado follow this practice and hold the final chord _forte_ to the end."
> 
> I've heard the ending done that way and it is, indeed, underwhelming.


Harnoncourt wanted to be different, not allways right.


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> There is some issue with the final chord of the 9th. From Arkivmusic: "Note that Harnoncourt, and as I recall, Solti with the Vienna Philharmonic before him, ends the symphony with a diminuendo on the final chord. I have always found this a bit strange and underwhelming. Neither Karajan nor Abbado follow this practice and hold the final chord _forte_ to the end."
> 
> I've heard the ending done that way and it is, indeed, underwhelming.


Why do you think they did it?

They're clearly avoiding a sense of climax, in a movement which is full of swagger they introduce a bit of irony, ambiguity, uncertainty. To me GH makes that final chord sound like something in Beethoven, maybe the opening of Leonora 3. Probably silly.


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## Pugg

Mandryka said:


> Why do you think they did it?
> 
> They're clearly avoiding a sense of climax, in a movement which is full of swagger they introduce a bit of irony, ambiguity, uncertainty. To me GH makes that final chord sound like something in Beethoven, maybe the opening of Leonora 3. Probably silly.


Perhaps KenOC see this after three years or changed his views.


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## Genoveva

Mandryka said:


> Why do you think they did it?


I understand that the final note is marked with a ">" . This is normally seen as a diminuendo but it may also be seen as an accent. It's not clear what Schubert actually intended as the whole symphony blows hot and cold throughout, and he might well have wanted a slight anti-climax. Nobody seems to know for sure, and whilst some conductors have interpreted this mark as a diminuendo others have sustained the volume of the final chord until the very end. Either way it's no big deal in my opinion, and not all that noticeable, especially in live performance by which time audiences have usually started clapping and cheering over the last bars. There are more important differences than this between different performance, e.g. number of repeats taken.


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## Mandryka

Genoveva said:


> I understand that the final note is marked with a ">" . This is normally seen as a diminuendo but it may also be seen as an accent. It's not clear what Schubert actually intended as the whole symphony blows hot and cold throughout, and he might well have wanted a slight anti-climax. Nobody seems to know for sure, and whilst some conductors have interpreted this mark as a diminuendo others have sustained the volume of the final chord until the very end. Either way it's no big deal in my opinion, and not all that noticeable, especially in live performance by which time audiences have usually started clapping and cheering over the last bars. There are more important differences than this between different performance, e.g. number of repeats taken.


Possibly it's no big deal -- though it is the final note and that gives it a certain importance in listeners' perceptions I think. It would be nice to see the manuscript for that note, but I can't find it online.

I hate swagger, and so I'm quite keen on the diminuendo ending!


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