# Things you have noticed in mediocre works



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

This is for you to list what you think are bad traits that make a poor work. Some are more subjective than others.

These are some of mine:

- Anappealing motifs, or melody that doesn't work.
- Overly simplistic or complex harmony for the melody's implied harmonies and vicevesa. 
- Poor or lack of an active bassline.
- Modulations that are either insuficient or unrelated to the material. 
- Climax on trivial chords/progressions.
- Dissonance as an unrelated "spice" added over otherwise consonant music.
- Rhythms that don't string together.
- Lack of rhythmic and harmoic-rhythmic variety and contrast between succeeding sections.
- Repetition of an entire uninteresting section.
- Same density and orchestration all the way through.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Thing is weak/mediocre music include

- more philosophical in nature than musical in substance
- lack of harmonic development but a reliance on random sounds, excessive dissonance, atonal development of any apparent harmony
- lack of harmonic balance between the main melody/theme and supporting modulations
- excessive length with no substance 
- warrants only limited or once or even incomplete listening experiences
- repetitive of theme all the way through, with limited density and orchestration
- requirement of non-aural cognitive recognition that it is in fact composed music


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This is for you to list what you think are bad traits that make a poor work. Some are more subjective than others.
> 
> These are some of mine:
> 
> ...


You hit all the big ones and there's little to add except:

- saccharine sweetness. Cecile Chaminade, for example. Rebikov another. Elthelbert Nevin - sickening.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Taking a nice phrase and running it into the ground.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Thinking that repeating a phrase or a motif or a passage will add drama.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

consuono said:


> Taking a nice phrase and running it into the ground.


That's called "minimalism."

Bad poetry is when you can anticipate the next word or the next phrase from a mile away. It's the same with bad music, for me.

It is a personal judgment however, what's "good" and "bad."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Things you have noticed in mediocre works* - most of it was written by John Williams. :devil:


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Bad dramatic timing. 

Repetition isn't always bad - there are entire disciplines of music based on the power of sustained atmosphere via repetition over the forward thrust of a narrative. but in *almost* any form of music, timing is crucial. The climactic cadence which cuts off a nice passage way too soon- or comes far after the current section has worn out its interest, and loses all its impact. Bad timing will kill your work stone dead, and it is really hard to get right.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> Taking a nice phrase and running it into the ground.


Like this


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Like this


No, Beethoven develops that and it's not particularly "nice" in the sense of syrupy sweet. It's a theme, and often Beethoven's themes are not particularly "nice". It's characteristic of sonata form.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

consuono said:


> Taking a nice phrase and running it into the ground.


Spot on. My exact problem with Shostakovich's 8th string quartet, for instance


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mediocre composers aren't able to write good "theme and variations" works in that their variations are not sufficiently unique.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Spot on. My exact problem with Shostakovich's 8th string quartet, for instance


Shostakovich also does something like that in the B flat minor piano fugue. Now I love the overall effect of the piece but wow, it goes on a bit too long. There's also that theme from the seventh symphony that Bartok mercilessly satirized. :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

consuono said:


> Shostakovich also does something like that in the B flat minor piano fugue. Now I love the overall effect of the piece but wow, it goes on a bit too long. There's also that theme from the seventh symphony that Bartok mercilessly satirized. :lol:


So these two works by Shostakovich are, in your judgement, mediocre?

Asking for a friend.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> *Things you have noticed in mediocre works* - most of it was written by John Williams. :devil:


And the remainder by middle to late 20th century composers. :tiphat:


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Great Thread, Wrahms.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

fbjim said:


> Bad dramatic timing.
> 
> Repetition isn't always bad - there are entire disciplines of music based on the power of sustained atmosphere via repetition over the forward thrust of a narrative. but in *almost* any form of music, timing is crucial. The climactic cadence which cuts off a nice passage way too soon- or comes far after the current section has worn out its interest, and loses all its impact. Bad timing will kill your work stone dead, and it is really hard to get right.


This specific thing you brought up is something that frustrates a lot of people about Bruckner, including myself when I first became familiar with his music. It took me a lot of repeated listens and getting to know him to really get his flow and structure, and his internal rhythm (I don't mean 'rhythm' in the technical literal sense) that makes each piece tick.

As for the OP, I find it hard to respond to this prompt because almost all pieces in the canon are at a very baseline "good". Sure, there's varying degrees in quality, I mean of course, but I don't feel its my place to judge a piece as outright mediocre. I feel like I can definitely sense when a piece is less inventive or inspired, but even in those cases the piece itself is compositionally sound.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> No, Beethoven develops that and it's not particularly "nice" in the sense of syrupy sweet. It's a theme, and often Beethoven's themes are not particularly "nice". It's characteristic of sonata form.


He milks it, runs it into the ground.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> *Things you have noticed in mediocre works* - most of it was written by John Williams. :devil:


I didn't like John Williams' music on first hearing it years ago and noticed that many people on this forum, whose opinions I respect, like him very much. So I asked for a good place to start in his music and I've listened to a fair bit recently and I will say you are wrong to describe his music as 'mediocre'. It's much worse than that.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> So these two works by Shostakovich are, in your judgement, mediocre?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


Hmmm...that's kinda tough. I never liked the 7th symphony apart from the last 10 minutes or so and as for the fugue, it's not Bachian but effective in its way. It still could've been shorter.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> He milks it, runs it into the ground.


I don't hear it. It's only around for a few seconds at a time, like most themes. It's there for 45 seconds before the appearance of the second section of the exposition in E major.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

consuono said:


> Taking a nice phrase and running it into the ground.


Such as Bach's Art of the Fugue! :devil:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

ORigel said:


> Such as Bach's Art of the Fugue! :devil:


Maybe, which is why I don't think Bach intended for it to be all taken in at one sitting. Now do the Goldberg Variations. :devil: Handel's Chaconne and 62 Variations might be an illustration...not among his greatest works imo. The Goldbergs show how it's done.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> I don't hear it. It's only around for a few seconds at a time, like most themes. It's there for 45 seconds before the appearance of the second section of the exposition in E major.


It's throughout the movement, it keeps cropping up like a bad penny.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> It's throughout the movement, it keeps cropping up like a bad penny.


So your gripe is with sonata form.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> So your gripe is with sonata form.


Don't know anything about that sort of thing, I just know that that movement milks that tune to death.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Don't know anything about that sort of thing, I just know that that movement milks that tune to death.


Well any opening movement of a symphony by Haydn or Mozart does some similar milking. So do Mozart's piano concertos in a slightly modified way. So I guess it's back to Stockhausen for you. :lol:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> Well any opening movement of a symphony by Haydn or Mozart does some similar milking:


I never listen to that stuff, if it milks the tunes like that Beethoven then it can't be a good thing. Why was this music so repetitive? I mean, what's the point?


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

One thing that suggest mediocrity to me (especially in piano music) is the constant utilization of cadenzas and acrobatics instead of motivic musical content. 

It tells me that the composer was more concerned with showing off and tinkly displays over developing his work in what I consider to be a meaningful manner. 

This is generally why I prefer Schumann and Brahms over Liszt and Chopin, and Chopin's Etudes/Preludes over his Nocturnes/Waltzes/Concertos.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I never listen to that stuff. Why was this music so repetitive? I mean, what's the point?


Motivic unity. People didn't have recordings back then, so they likely didn't get to hear much of anything multiple times. The da capo ternary form of the aria is also an example of this. Composers wanted a work to be memorable, and a nice structure with multiple repeatable themes did just that.

This is also why Schumann was often criticized as being incomprehensible. His free-form suites had very little motivic unity.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Motivic unity. People didn't have recordings back then, so they likely didn't get to hear much of anything multiple times. The da capo ternary form of the aria is also an example of this. Composers wanted a work to be memorable, and a nice structure with multiple repeatable themes did just that.


Ah. Probably why I'm not so interested in c19 and c18 century music. It certainly doesn't seem a strength to me.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I never listen to that stuff, if it milks the tunes like that Beethoven then it can't be a good thing. Why was this music so repetitive? I mean, what's the point?


Order vs chaos, I guess. A fugue is built around a theme as well.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Ah. Probably why I'm not so interested in c19 and c18 century music. It certainly doesn't seem a strength to me.


Do you like Schumann?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Do you like Schumann?


I like Davidsbundlertanze and I like some of the songs.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

chu42 said:


> Motivic unity. People didn't have recordings back then, so they likely didn't get to hear much of anything multiple times. The da capo ternary form of the aria is also an example of this. Composers wanted a work to be memorable, and a nice structure with multiple repeatable themes did just that.
> 
> This is also why Schumann was often criticized as being incomprehensible. His free-form suites had very little motivic unity.


I wondered for a while why the last movement of the Trout Quintet was basically a lengthy A-B-A-B with very little variation and was more or less told this - since the quintet wouldn't have been expected to be re-performed except rarely, if ever, it made more sense to repeat the very lovely music again for everyone listening to enjoy.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> Order vs chaos.


You don't need quite so much repetition to avoid chaos!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Motivic unity. People didn't have recordings back then, so they likely didn't get to hear much of anything multiple times. The da capo ternary form of the aria is also an example of this. Composers wanted a work to be memorable, and a nice structure with multiple repeatable themes did just that.


I'm going to start a thread on this.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

re: sonata form, more specifically, since the "point" of it is to introduce themes and "play" with them further on in the piece, it made a lot of sense to have exposition repeats to really nail down the theme for listeners since they didn't have the benefit of being able to just repeat the piece so they get the themes down on a re-listen


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I like Davidsbundlertanze and I like some of the songs.


If you like Davidsbundlertanze you must listen to the Humoreske, Kreisleriana, and Carnaval. Out of these four Davidsbundlertanze actually took me the longest to appreciate, followed by Kreisleriana. I can 100% understand the audience confusion at the premiere of these works. Even Clara complained of their length, complexity, and difficulty to decipher.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

consuono said:


> Well any opening movement of a symphony by Haydn or Mozart does some similar milking. So do Mozart's piano concertos in a slightly modified way. So I guess it's back to Stockhausen for you. :lol:


Stockhausen is often highly repetitive. Or at least ambient.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

i mean, nothing wrong with repetition. sustained atmosphere can be just as valid a musical goal as drama. entire disciplines of music have started based on this principle!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Stockhausen is often highly repetitive. Or at least ambient.


The repetition in Stimmung, for example is hypnotic. Similarly for Alvin Lucier, another composer I like very much. It isn't in the first movement of the Waldstien.



chu42 said:


> Stockhausen is often highly repetitive. Or at least ambient.


There's a lot to discuss here. But this is not the place maybe.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Well, I like both the Waldstein and Stockhausen!

In fact, even though I have my complaints about Chopin/Liszt, I can essentially enjoy any work as long as it is performed well.

Case in point: This seems to me like awful stuff, rushed and turgid.






But this is natural-sounding, beautiful, and exciting.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Well, I like both the Waldstein and Stockhausen!
> 
> In fact, even though I have my complaints about Chopin/Liszt, I can essentially enjoy any work as long as it is performed well.
> 
> ...


I find the first movement of the Waldstein extremely challenging, and I've always put that down to the repetitions. Generally I am not a great fan of Beethoven.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Like this


I'm shocked - SHOCKED, I say - that anyone would propose this strong and original composition as an instance of mediocrity in music. I suspect that you're hearing the music superficially, in the literal sense of the word - hearing surface gestures, which do have a certain (though not unusual) amount of repetition, and not the deep structure of the movement, which is continually renewing the piece with fresh material, harmonic surprises and textural shifts. I hadn't heard the piece for a number of years, and am delighted to do so again. At certain moments I actually laughed out loud at Beethoven playfulness, the way he surprises in the moment but pulls it all together in a satisfying way. Especially wonderful is his typical "second development" in the recapitulation and coda. The inventiveness is continuous. There's just no stopping the guy.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Yes. Who determines what piece of music is mediocre? Certainly, no one on TC, I would have thought, would be qualified to make such a determination. Nothing I’ve seen mentioned so far would qualify imho.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

What determines if a piece of music is mediocre or 'bad' I believe is specific sets of characteristics (which also include the listener) that make the whole system not work. I think for a piece to be mediocre it has to be somehow fundamentally flawed in it's process, for it to be bad it has to have multiple flaws at many levels.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I'm shocked - SHOCKED, I say - that anyone would propose this strong and original composition as an instance of mediocrity in music. I suspect that you're hearing the music superficially, in the literal sense of the word - hearing surface gestures, which do have a certain (though not unusual) amount of repetition, and not the deep structure of the movement, which is continually renewing the piece with fresh material, harmonic surprises and textural shifts. I hadn't heard the piece for a number of years, and am delighted to do so again. At certain moments I actually laughed out loud at Beethoven playfulness, the way he surprises in the moment but pulls it all together in a satisfying way. Especially wonderful is his typical "second development" in the recapitulation and coda. The inventiveness is continuous. There's just no stopping the guy.


I must agree that the Waldstein is incredibly original and _would_ be a delight for me to listen to if everyone hadn't performed it ad nauseum in competition.

But there exist even more off-beat opinions; for example, Glenn Gould saying that the Appassionata was one of Beethoven's weakest works.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

chu42 said:


> I must agree that the Waldstein is incredibly original and _would_ be a delight for me to listen to if everyone hadn't performed it ad nauseum in competition.
> 
> But there exist even more off-beat opinions; for example, Glenn Gould saying that the Appassionata was one of Beethoven's weakest works.


Oh, Glenn! Glenn!


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

What was the quote, we should be thankful for every Beethoven sonata Gould didn't record?


(I do like his Moonlight, though)


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

fbjim said:


> What was the quote, we should be thankful for every Beethoven sonata Gould didn't record?
> 
> (I do like his Moonlight, though)


I kinda like his recording of the Hammerklavier too (almost typed hammeredklavier there :lol: )


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I'm shocked - SHOCKED, I say - that anyone would propose this strong and original composition as an instance of mediocrity in music. I suspect that you're hearing the music superficially, in the literal sense of the word - hearing surface gestures, which do have a certain (though not unusual) amount of repetition, and not the deep structure of the movement, which is continually renewing the piece with fresh material, harmonic surprises and textural shifts. I hadn't heard the piece for a number of years, and am delighted to do so again. At certain moments I actually laughed out loud at Beethoven playfulness, the way he surprises in the moment but pulls it all together in a satisfying way. Especially wonderful is his typical "second development" in the recapitulation and coda. The inventiveness is continuous. There's just no stopping the guy.


The last movement is a blast. One thing about Beethoven is he wasn't afraid to go all over the keyboard. :lol:


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This is for you to list what you think are bad traits that make a poor work. Some are more subjective than others.
> 
> These are some of mine:
> 
> ...


Thanks for this.

I don't suppose you could point to examples for some of these, particularly:

- Overly simplistic or complex harmony for the melody's implied harmonies and vicevesa. 
- Poor or lack of an active bassline.
- Modulations that are either insuficient or unrelated to the material. 
- Climax on trivial chords/progressions.
- Dissonance as an unrelated "spice" added over otherwise consonant music
- Lack of rhythmic and harmoic-rhythmic variety and contrast between succeeding sections

...asking for a 'friend'.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm shocked - SHOCKED, I say - that anyone would propose this strong and original composition as an instance of mediocrity in music.


I wasn't, I don't make value judgements. I was saying that he milks that tune incessantly. Indeed when I brought it up I was surprised that people who do make value judgements didn't see it as a reductio of the idea that repetition is a mark of mediocrity.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

chu42 said:


> Glenn Gould saying that the Appassionata was one of Beethoven's weakest works.






https://glenngould.com/music/glenn-gould-plays-beethoven-sonatas-nos-8-14-23/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> I wasn't, I don't make value judgements. I was saying that he milks that tune incessantly. Indeed when I brought it up I was surprised that people who do make value judgements didn't see it as a reductio of the idea that repetition is a mark of mediocrity.


Well that's a relief! Now I'll sleep tonight.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> https://glenngould.com/music/glenn-gould-plays-beethoven-sonatas-nos-8-14-23/


Yes, he had some disparaging thoughts on Beethoven, and even more on Mozart.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

chu42 said:


> Yes, he had some disparaging thoughts on Beethoven, and even more on Mozart.


"I personally think that a lot of of the fugues in the Well tempered clavier are better off without their attending preludes and vice-versa." 



"'a monstrosity,' the harmony 'wanders all over the lot'" (on Bach's chromatic fantasie)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> "I personally think that a lot of of the fugues in the Well tempered clavier are better off without their attending preludes and vice-versa."


I don't think there's much of a relation between prelude and fugue in WTC, other than key.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Yes, he had some disparaging thoughts on Beethoven, and even more on Mozart.


I didn't know he had negative things to say about Beethoven, I enjoyed quite a lot of his solo Beethoven in fact - apart from some of the very later sonatas - op 109 and op 110. I especially value his batailles and variations.

I quite enjoy his live recording of Mozart concerto 24. Also K475.


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