# Opera cuts.....What do you think?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Mostly done back in the day.
Thought it might be interesting to discuss them.

Which ones do you think are ok/good and which ones do you hate?
:tiphat:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I think cuts are still common now, though they are probably less frequent and less prominent.

_Elektra_ was recently performed at San Francisco Opera, and even in this short opera they did it with "the standard cuts" totaling around 10 minutes. There's no excuse for this case - unlike with some longer operas - about keeping the opera from being too long of a night.

I tend to prefer there to not be cuts, but I think they are more forgivable to completely understandable in older rep when performance practice was very different and cuts (and even interpolations!) were normal.

I don't want to see another cut _Lulu_ again, though. Or at least not one cut as drastically as the one I saw (down to 200 minutes plus one intermission, before the short film). That's a score that does not hold up to being pulled apart like that.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Rigoletto traditionally often had the Possente amor excised. Perfectly fine with that, I think it's kind of a silly and obvious cabaletta that sounds like it's in there just to give egotistic tenors more to sing and not complain about the size of their roles. (I remember once seeing an interview with Robert Merrill talking about how Bjorling referred to the quartet as his solo).

Rigoletto also often had the Veglia, o donna duet between Rigoletto and Gilda abridged to just a few phrases, I haaaate that. It's one of the most beautiful things Verdi wrote, and the relationship between Rigoletto and Gilda is key to the opera.

Basically I hate cuts that are intrusive that no longer flows (looking at you Karajan's Otello) or that excises extremely important or artistically significant music. Cuts that aren't intrusive, like you'd need to follow along on a score to notice, that don't eliminate extremely important or exceptionally beautiful music is ok with me. 

Or if it's something like Rienzi, which has an hour of good music spread across 5 hours of opera, I'm all in favor of extremely aggressive cutting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Numbers" operas are more easily and justifiably cut than "through-composed" ones. Up to the late 19th century, composers and producers had no problem adding or dropping arias for specific performances, often to accommodate the skills of specific singers, but also for other practical or artistic reasons. The idea that every number composed for an opera should be heard at every performance is a modern one, and Handel, Mozart, Rossini and Verdi would certainly not expect us to treat every note they wrote as sacrosanct.

Through-composed scores can be hard to cut without compromising them artistically. Most of the "traditional" cuts in Wagner may save singers' voices and audiences' derrieres, but they do disfigure the works. The most crippling one is in the third act of _Tristan,_ where the cycles of Tristan's mounting desperation constitute one of Wagner's most perfect architectonic creations. I attended a _Tristan_ at the Met where the cut was employed, to no avail: the tenor lost his voice before the end anyway.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> "Numbers" operas are more easily and justifiably cut than "through-composed" ones. Up to the late 19th century, composers and producers had no problem adding or dropping arias for specific performances, often to accommodate the skills of specific singers, but also for other practical or artistic reasons. The idea that every number composed for an opera should be heard at every performance is a modern one, and Handel, Mozart, Rossini and Verdi would certainly not expect us to treat every note they wrote as sacrosanct.
> 
> Through-composed scores can be hard to cut without compromising them artistically. Most of the "traditional" cuts in Wagner may save singers' voices and audiences' derrieres, but they do disfigure the works. The most crippling one is in the third act of _Tristan,_ where the cycles of Tristan's mounting desperation constitute one of Wagner's most perfect architectonic creations. I attended a _Tristan_ at the Met where the cut was employed, to no avail: the tenor lost his voice before the end anyway.


I don't like but I don't hate the cuts Furtwangler made to the Ring at his La Scala performance, but I do hate the Tristan Act 3 cuts. It's some of the best stuff in the opera! On the other hand, the standard cut to In fernem Land is so ingrained at this point, it strikes me as weird when they *don't* do it.


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## Johnmusic (Oct 4, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> Rigoletto traditionally often had the Possente amor excised. Perfectly fine with that, I think it's kind of a silly and obvious cabaletta that sounds like it's in there just to give egotistic tenors more to sing and not complain about the size of their roles. (I remember once seeing an interview with Robert Merrill talking about how Bjorling referred to the quartet as his solo).
> 
> Rigoletto also often had the Veglia, o donna duet between Rigoletto and Gilda abridged to just a few phrases, I haaaate that. It's one of the most beautiful things Verdi wrote, and the relationship between Rigoletto and Gilda is key to the opera.
> 
> ...


==================

While I like Possente amor especially when Alfredo Kraus sings it, I think your post makes sense,

I have a bug about some of Wagner. He could write some of the most glorious music of all time and then break it off into a long boring "CHAT" between the singers and the orchestra.

Regards-John


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Itullian said:


> Which ones do you think are ok/good and which ones do you hate?


I hate all cuts. Even Preziosilla in Forza - if they cut her out, what's left to complain about?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I hate all cuts. Even Preziosilla in Forza - if they cut her out, *what's left to complain about?*


Ask that question around here, and you deserve whatever you get.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Johnmusic said:


> ==================
> I have a bug about some of Wagner. He could write some of the most glorious music of all time and then break it off into a long boring "CHAT" between the singers and the orchestra.
> 
> Regards-John


One man's boring chat is another man's dramaturgy.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Can we please cut out the Norn scene in Gotterdammerung?! Think of it this way, Wagner wrote that in the first of the Ring librettos in order to tell everyone what had happened, but then he decided to add each of the prequels so we already know what happened!

<Slips out quickly before I get stoned for heresy!>


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I don't like but I don't hate the cuts Furtwangler made to the Ring at his La Scala performance, but I do hate the Tristan Act 3 cuts. It's some of the best stuff in the opera! On the other hand, the standard cut to In fernem Land is so ingrained at this point, it strikes me as weird when they *don't* do it.


I'm with you on the _Lohengrin_ cut. By 11:00 PM I've had enough 4/4 time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Can we please cut out the Norn scene in Gotterdammerung?! Think of it this way, Wagner wrote that in the first of the Ring librettos in order to tell everyone what had happened, but then he decided to add each of the prequels so we already know what happened!
> 
> <Slips out quickly before I get stoned for heresy!>


EEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I _LOVE_ NORNS!

In fact, the norns tell us some fascinating mythological stuff we didn't know. They explain the root of Wotan's downfall in the making of his spear from the World Ash, which caused the tree to die and the spring of life that flowed from it to dry up. The music is misty, dark, spooky and majestic, prefiguring Waltraute's account of Wotan awaiting his end, which in turn prefigures Brunnhilde's immolation scene.

(The story the norns tell is, by the way, marvelously paralleled in _Parsifal,_ where Amfortas tears the sacred spear away from the "spring of life" of the grail and is thus rendered unable to bestow the grail's life-giving blessing, resulting in the death of Titurel, Wotan's reincarnation in being the "god" of a moribund order. The parallels between the _Ring_ and _Parsifal_, as well as the critical difference which makes the latter work the fulfillment of the former, are fascinating.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> *Rigoletto traditionally often had the Possente amor excised. Perfectly fine with that, I think it's kind of a silly and obvious cabaletta that sounds like it's in there just to give egotistic tenors more to sing and not complain about the size of their roles.* (I remember once seeing an interview with Robert Merrill talking about how Bjorling referred to the quartet as his solo).
> 
> Rigoletto also often had the Veglia, o donna duet between Rigoletto and Gilda abridged to just a few phrases, I haaaate that. It's one of the most beautiful things Verdi wrote, and the relationship between Rigoletto and Gilda is key to the opera.
> 
> ...


Posente Amor is actually part of the drama. Like La Donne et Mobile (no-one would dare to cut that out!) it is an expression of the Duke's shallow character - hence pretty shallow stuff. But with it Verdi builds dramatically - and gives the tenor a chance to show off, of course. Interesting Ernest Newman says 'words that don't quite ring true'. Of course they don't any more than the Duke's shallow, fickle character rings true. Viva Verdi!


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

I remember being surprised hearing 'Giorno di pianto' from _I Vespri Siciliani_ with Placido Domingo/ James Levine in the studio recording for EMI (1973) highlighting the amount of material cut in previous versions:

Filippeschi/Serafin 1957





Domingo/Levine 1973





It turns out that Tullio Serafin made at least 3 cuts in this short selection - to chop the Levine version down you would lose ¼ of the track (!) including
03:06-03:43
06:20-07:41 and
08:21-08:44

Perhaps these cuts can be justified in part because Arrigo remains a hellish part to cast in a comparatively long night at the opera...

However, I'll admit I was less sympathetic listening to the DG studio Traviata with Scotto/ Raimondi/Bastianini recently when I think I noticed even more cuts than the live version recorded seven years earlier - with the same Germont and in the same theatre  - by Callas et al with Giulini


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> Can we please cut out the Norn scene in Gotterdammerung?! Think of it this way, Wagner wrote that in the first of the Ring librettos in order to tell everyone what had happened, but then he decided to add each of the prequels so we already know what happened!
> 
> <Slips out quickly before I get stoned for heresy!>


There's a lot in Goetterdaemerung that you already know if you have seen the preceding operas and some of it can get tedious in a less than wonderful performance. However, the music of the Norns scene is wonderful!

N.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Becca said:


> Think of it this way, Wagner wrote that in the first of the Ring librettos in order to tell everyone what had happened


If that was the only import of the scene, Wagner's decision to leave it in would definitely be quite strange. Perhaps it has a deeper significance, besides conveying backstory to the listener.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Short answer: I hate cuts. I want it all.
(Okay -- so I exaggerate. I could do without some dance and ballet scenes which interrupt the flow, and Eboli's "Veil song" in _Don Carlo_ can happily disappear.)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I can understand some cuts in live performances (although at the price of tickets I would feel short-changed) but I'm baffled as to why you would cut a studio one. You don't have to sit at home listening to a whole opera in one fell swoop. You can stop at any point and make a coffee or have a comfort break. Weird, plain weird.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Becca said:


> Can we please cut out the Norn scene in Gotterdammerung?! Think of it this way, Wagner wrote that in the first of the Ring librettos in order to tell everyone what had happened, but then he decided to add each of the prequels so we already know what happened!
> 
> <Slips out quickly before I get stoned for heresy!>


In addition to what others said, removing the Norns also messes up the various structure parallels Wagner built into the Ring. _Götterdämmerung_ is a model of the entire Ring (as are both _Das Rheingold_ and the third act of _Götterdämmerung_).

So _Götterdämmerung_ opening with the Norns is a variation on on the opening of the entire cycle with the Rhinemaidens.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> In addition to what others said, removing the Norns also messes up the various structure parallels Wagner built into the Ring. _Götterdämmerung_ is a model of the entire Ring (as are both _Das Rheingold_ and the third act of _Götterdämmerung_).
> 
> So _Götterdämmerung_ opening with the Norns is *a variation* on on the opening of the entire cycle with the Rhinemaidens.


A variation that represents an evolution. In _Rheingold,_ we have innocence, represented by three nubile young women who know nothing but play and pleasure, in a timeless watery world which time invades, breaking the balance of nature. In _Gotterdammerung,_ we have experience, represented by three old crones, bowed by time and weary of too much knowledge, who are spinning time's rope on a barren rock when it breaks and gives way to the dawn of an unpredictable new world in which a higher innocence may be achieved by love.

The norn scene was in fact frequently cut in years past, but doing so is quite a violation of the _Ring_'s meaning and structure.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Short answer: I hate cuts. I want it all.
> (Okay -- so I exaggerate. I could do without some dance and ballet scenes which interrupt the flow, and Eboli's "Veil song" in _Don Carlo_ can happily disappear.)


You can not be serious, I hope.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I suppose if you think about it the logical cut in the Ring would be to eliminate Rheingold, Walküre and Siegfried and go straight to Götterdämmerung. After all, the Norns do a really good 'story so far' exposition! Why waste time with the stuff before. Yeah, Wagner sweated years of his life just to see some philistine decide that certain bits can be disposed of wildly-nilly.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Becca said:


> Can we please cut out the Norn scene in Gotterdammerung?! Think of it this way, Wagner wrote that in the first of the Ring librettos in order to tell everyone what had happened, but then he decided to add each of the prequels so we already know what happened!
> 
> <Slips out quickly before I get stoned for heresy!>


Take cover!!! I enjoy the Norns, particularly the distinctive tunes and music of the section. And, besides, I like the word 'Norn' and when I observe lady friends knitting together I often think of the Norns.

I notice in live performance many people dashing to the opera from work take a power nap during the Norns which sets them up for the rest of the show. The Norns are necessary! However I'm not prepared to defend every part of the Ring.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> I suppose if you think about it the logical cut in the Ring would be to eliminate Rheingold, Walküre and Siegfried and go straight to Götterdämmerung. After all, the Norns do a really good 'story so far' exposition! Why waste time with the stuff before. Yeah, Wagner sweated years of his life just to see some philistine decide that certain bits can be disposed of wildly-nilly.


You've heard nothing yet...

I wouldn't exactly _cut_ the Ring, but I do sometimes think it would be greatly improved if Siegfried were replaced with Swan Lake. I think plot wise it would work (after all the hero of both is called Siegfried).

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Wagner's operas are too long imo. The guy just didn't know when to stop writing. Brevity was not his strong suit. He enjoyed hearing the sound of his own voice and in his operas made sure we did. Probably Shakespeare was the same only we don't know much about him. Of course to Wagner such a thing as cuts was unthinkable as his works were (to him at least) 'total works of art', to be revered. Shakespeare thought differently as he was out to entertain. So did Verdi.
Now if as I believe opera is an entertainment, not to be taken too seriously, then for an evening at the theatre, to not weary an audience, cuts might be made. Verdi himself did that with Don Carlos which became Don Carlo. Of course, it is generally back now to the five act version. 
I have seen many versions of what is generally reckoned to be one of the supreme masterpieces of the theatre - Shakespeare's Hamlet. I have, however, not seen one in the theatre that is uncut. Come on, the thing is masterly but just to long for an evening. And no-one appears to make a great song and dance about it. Then why should opera be any different, in that it is adapted to suit the needs of the paying public, most of whom desire to catch the last train home?
Of course, with a recording, cuts are to be avoided. Come the age of CD we can make our own cuts if desired.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

If you're a Wagner hater they're too long.
If you love his music they are not

Works can be entertainment but they can be much more as well.
So much thought went into Wagner's uperas that they are constantly 
being analyzed. Volumes are written about them.
Viva Wagner!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> If you're a Wagner hater they're too long.
> If you love his music they are not
> 
> Works can be entertainment but they can be much more as well.
> ...


Tell me, because a person thinks Hamlet is too long for an evening at the theatre, does that make him a Shakespeare hater? In that case most of the theatres I have seen Hamlet at are Shakespeare haters! So much thought went into Wagner? Yes! But it doesn't make them beyond criticism. So much thought went into Hamlet and it's still being analysed and doctorates written about it. But it doesn't mean we have to hear all of it in an evening. In fact most theatres don't perform it all in the evening. Because we think that a work is too long doesn't mean we hate it. Just that some of us wish it was shorter so our enjoyment was more concentrated. 
Many theatres cut a couple of arias from Figaro but that doesn't make them Figaro haters. It just means they want to make the evening more manageable


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Wagner's operas are too long imo. The guy just didn't know when to stop writing. Brevity was not his strong suit. He enjoyed hearing the sound of his own voice and in his operas made sure we did. Probably Shakespeare was the same only we don't know much about him. Of course to Wagner such a thing as cuts was unthinkable as his works were (to him at least) 'total works of art', to be revered. Shakespeare thought differently as he was out to entertain. So did Verdi.
> Now if as I believe opera is an entertainment, not to be taken too seriously, then for an evening at the theatre, to not weary an audience, cuts might be made. Verdi himself did that with Don Carlos which became Don Carlo. Of course, it is generally back now to the five act version.
> I have seen many versions of what is generally reckoned to be one of the supreme masterpieces of the theatre - Shakespeare's Hamlet. I have, however, not seen one in the theatre that is uncut. Come on, the thing is masterly but just to long for an evening. And no-one appears to make a great song and dance about it. Then why should opera be any different, in that it is adapted to suit the needs of the paying public, most of whom desire to catch the last train home?
> Of course, with a recording, cuts are to be avoided. Come the age of CD we can make our own cuts if desired.


The unabridged Branagh Hamlet is terrific (but I can see why directors might cut the sniping at boy actor troupes). That's the director's cut, though, which is a different proposition from a staged production.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

No cuts. Give me new critical editions with extra material.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NickFuller said:


> The *unabridged Branagh Hamlet is terrific * (but I can see why directors might cut the sniping at boy actor troupes). That's the director's cut, though, which is a different proposition from a staged production.


In places. Nice to have the whole of he gravedigger's scene. It was made as a film of course which is a very different proposition to a theatrical production.


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## Johnmusic (Oct 4, 2017)

Few people went cut crazy at Zefferelli's butchering of the film of Verdi's "Otello". I went nuts because of the missing music not deleted plot as I knew what was going on.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Wagner's operas are too long imo. The guy just didn't know when to stop writing. Brevity was not his strong suit. He enjoyed hearing the sound of his own voice and in his operas made sure we did. Probably Shakespeare was the same only we don't know much about him. Of course to Wagner such a thing as cuts was unthinkable as his works were (to him at least) 'total works of art', to be revered. Shakespeare thought differently as he was out to entertain. So did Verdi.
> Now if as I believe opera is an entertainment, not to be taken too seriously, then for an evening at the theatre, to not weary an audience, cuts might be made. Verdi himself did that with Don Carlos which became Don Carlo. Of course, it is generally back now to the five act version.
> I have seen many versions of what is generally reckoned to be one of the supreme masterpieces of the theatre - Shakespeare's Hamlet. I have, however, not seen one in the theatre that is uncut. Come on, the thing is masterly but just to long for an evening. And no-one appears to make a great song and dance about it. Then why should opera be any different, in that it is adapted to suit the needs of the paying public, most of whom desire to catch the last train home?
> Of course, with a recording, cuts are to be avoided. Come the age of CD we can make our own cuts if desired.


OK, if you have difficulty sitting through Wagner operas, what would you cut? Which bits don't you like? What's expendable? What can be removed without too much artistic compromise? Presumably we don't want to lose text crucial to the plot. But there's also the matter of musical structure, which some people are more sensitive to than others. If your musical perception is more moment-to-moment, this may not be a significant matter to you. In "numbers" operas composers themselves cut numbers, rearrange them, or replace them with different ones. Fiddling around with through-composed scores is more problematic.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Mount McCabe, the reason Elektra is usually done with cuts is because of the sheer difficulty of the title role . It's a real voice-shredder ! Elektra is on stage and singing throughout the entire length of the opera and has to compete with a gigantic orchestra which is constantly blasting away at full volume . 
Birgit Nilsson was accustomed to singing Elektra with the usual cuts anyway , but when she finally got to make her classic and still unsurpassed recording for Decca with Solti conducting back in the 1960s and Solti wanted to do it without cuts , she actually had to learn music she wasn't familiar with !
And so far, the only uncut recordings have been by Solti, Sawallisch , Gergiev and Semyon Bychkov as far as I know. Karl Bohm, who made the first studio recording, Barenboim, Mitropoulos, Thielemann and other conductors have all made the cuts .


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

I hate the Serafin cuts in Callas' Medea.Why would anyone omit "Tu Glauce piangi sol" ? I find the cuts in Macbeth's act 3 ( ballo and then coro e ballabile "Ondine e silfidi") convenient.
I can do without Alfredo and Germont's cabalettas. Most Leonoras would be better off without "tu vedrai che amor in terra".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> OK, if you have difficulty sitting through Wagner operas, what would you cut? Which bits don't you like? What's expendable? What can be removed without too much artistic compromise? Presumably we don't want to lose text crucial to the plot. But there's also the matter of musical structure, which some people are more sensitive to than others. If your musical perception is more moment-to-moment, this may not be a significant matter to you. In "numbers" operas composers themselves cut numbers, rearrange them, or replace them with different ones. Fiddling around with through-composed scores is more problematic.


Certainly most of Wagner's operas could lose something without interfering with the plot as the plots tend to move so slowly. As I've said before, what Wagner lacked, imo, is an editor who would tighten the libretti up for him. You only have to read of the relationship Verdi had with his librettists with much backward and forward of material to see how it might have worked. The problem was Wagner was a vastly more talented musician than a dramatist / poet and his poetry does not match up to his music. 
Interesting that Knappersbusch sometimes made cuts in his Ring cycles to accommodate the singers if not the audience! And Wieland Wagner was not adverse to making cuts in his grandfather's works.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Certainly most of Wagner's operas *could lose something* without interfering with the plot as the plots tend to move so slowly. As I've said before, what Wagner lacked, imo, is an editor who would tighten the libretti up for him. You only have to read of the relationship Verdi had with his librettists with much backward and forward of material to see how it might have worked. The problem was *Wagner was a vastly more talented musician than a dramatist / poet and his poetry does not match up to his music. *
> Interesting that Knappersbusch sometimes made cuts in his Ring cycles to accommodate the singers if not the audience! And *Wieland Wagner was not adverse to making cuts in his grandfather's works.*


Wieland Wagner, for reasons I've never heard explained, tried to cut the extraordinary little scene following Siegfried's funeral march in which Gutrune stands alone in the night, apprehensive and full of foreboding about the events that have transpired and about Siegfried's return. The response to that strange failure of judgment was, properly, outrage.

You didn't answer my question. What would you cut? This thread is about cuts - i.e. music we'd rather do without, or think an opera is better without - not about whether we feel operas are too long. We can legitimately wish that that an opera were shorter but still not think that cutting out pieces of it constitutes a viable solution to the "problem."

And who cares whether librettists are great poets? For Wagner's poetry to "match up" to his music, he'd have had to be Shakespeare.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> *Wieland Wagner, for reasons I've never heard explained, tried to cut the extraordinary little scene following Siegfried's funeral march* in which Gutrune stands alone in the night, apprehensive and full of foreboding about the events that have transpired and about Siegfried's return. The response to that strange failure of judgment was, properly, outrage.
> 
> You didn't answer my question. What would you cut? This thread is about cuts - i.e. music we'd rather do without, or think an opera is better without - not about whether we feel operas are too long. We can legitimately wish that that an opera were shorter but still not think that cutting out pieces of it constitutes a viable solution to the "problem."
> 
> And who cares whether librettists are great poets? For Wagner's poetry to "match up" to his music, he'd have had to be Shakespeare.


The reason he cut it is that he could see no point in it. With Wagner, of course, cuts are far more problematic than with most other composers because of the way the music flows throughout. Why I talked about him needing an editor in the first place to tighten things up. Interesting that many scripts that are handed back in publishing have the motto 'tighten up' on them. You really need someone else to read a script and analyse it because as authors we are our worst self-critics. You get to a stage in writing where you just don't see the fault lines as it is your creation. I always welcome editorial comment as it's better for it to be adjusted before it goes to print.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The reason he cut it is that he could see no point in it.


His mistake. That moment of time in fearful, hushed suspension is exactly what's needed between the catastrophe of Siegfried's death and the tumult that follows. Wagner's musical and dramatic instincts were spot on. When I first heard _Gotterdammerung_ in my teens I felt the brilliance of this little scene, and the way it magnifies the violence which surrounds it.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Wieland Wagner, for reasons I've never heard explained, tried to cut the extraordinary little scene following Siegfried's funeral march in which Gutrune stands alone in the night, apprehensive and full of foreboding about the events that have transpired and about Siegfried's return.


And unless I'm mistaken, that's the only time that Wieland every made a cut in any opera at Bayreuth.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> This thread is about cuts - i.e. music we'd rather do without, or think an opera is better without - not about whether we feel operas are too long. We can legitimately wish that that an opera were shorter but still not think that cutting out pieces of it constitutes a viable solution to the "problem."


When I made my comment about the Norns scene, the responses came as no surprise, nor anything that I could argue with. All I can say is that I find it quite tedious, but that isn't to say that it is unneeded. Parts of this thread prompted me to think about the rest of the Ring, is there anything that does seem superfluous, and I had a difficult time coming up with anything. Perhaps the Mime/Wanderer Q&A session, but that's about it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> When I made my comment about the Norns scene, the responses came as no surprise, nor anything that I could argue with. All I can say is that I find it quite tedious, but that isn't to say that it is unneeded. Parts of this thread prompted me to think about the rest of the Ring, is there anything that does seem superfluous, and I had a difficult time coming up with anything. Perhaps the Mime/Wanderer Q&A session, but that's about it.


That "20 questions" game (as Anna Russell called it) would be my sole nomination too. It's clearly left over from the original draft of the opera where, in the absence of _Das Rheingold_, the descriptions of Nibelungs, giants and gods served some purpose, though perhaps not a necessary one in any case. I think Wagner should have found another excuse to have the Wanderer pass through and give Mime a fright; I'd hate to lose the whirring and flickering music that accompanies Mime's terror at the end of the scene. If there were a way to shorten the scene without making nonsense of it, I wouldn't object, but I suspect there isn't.

Writing the _Ring_ Librettos in reverse order did create a certain amount of redundancy, but I find that most of the time Wagner was able to throw enough new light on old information and set it to fine enough music to justify retaining the retrospective passages. That he could bring as much coherence as he did to a project that grew and changed so much over so long a time, even while taking time out for _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_, is not the least amazing thing about it.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> That "20 questions" game (as Anna Russell called it) would be my sole nomination too. It's clearly left over from the original draft of the opera where, in the absence of _Das Rheingold_, the descriptions of Nibelungs, giants and gods served some purpose, though perhaps not a necessary one in any case. I think Wagner should have found another excuse to have the Wanderer pass through and give Mime a fright; I'd hate to lose the whirring and flickering music that accompanies Mime's terror at the end of the scene. If there were a way to shorten the scene without making nonsense of it, I wouldn't object, but I suspect there isn't.


I would hate to lose the Valhalla leitmotiv from that questioning scene. It is like a beam of sunlight every time it sounds in the operas - very, very beautiful. So I would not want to have that scene cut either.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That "20 questions" game (as Anna Russell called it) would be my sole nomination too. It's clearly left over from the original draft of the opera where, in the absence of _Das Rheingold_, the descriptions of Nibelungs, giants and gods served some purpose, though perhaps not a necessary one in any case. I think Wagner should have found another excuse to have the Wanderer pass through and give Mime a fright; I'd hate to lose the whirring and flickering music that accompanies Mime's terror at the end of the scene. If there were a way to shorten the scene without making nonsense of it, I wouldn't object, but I suspect there isn't.
> 
> Writing the _Ring_ Librettos in reverse order did create a certain amount of redundancy, but I find that most of the time Wagner was able to throw enough new light on old information and set it to fine enough music to justify retaining the retrospective passages. That he could bring as much coherence as he did to a project that grew and changed so much over so long a time, even while taking time out for _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_, is not the least amazing thing about it.


I groan inwardly when it comes to the '20 questions' segment and I don't perceive much value in the motives used in the majority of that section. However, is there not importance in the way that Wotan steers Mime towards the visit to Neidhoelle? One thing I find interesting with this scene is that Mime uses the question session to ask questions he thinks are difficult and therefore will give him the chance of 'winning'. Wotan points out that he could have used it to find out valuable information. Therefore here's another example of our folly and the disabling nature of pride and lust for power.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I groan inwardly when it comes to the '20 questions' segment and I don't perceive much value in the motives used in the majority of that section. However, is there not importance in the way that Wotan steers Mime towards the visit to Neidhoelle? One thing I find interesting with this scene is that Mime uses the question session to ask questions he thinks are difficult and therefore will give him the chance of 'winning'. Wotan points out that he could have used it to find out valuable information. Therefore here's another example of our folly and the disabling nature of pride and lust for power.
> 
> N.


Good point, Conte. A Mime who's a fine actor, and a Wanderer who projects the right air of knowingness, power and serenity, will certainly bring this out and make the most of the scene. Mime is a fantastic character, don't you think? He's fearful, vicious and comical at the same time, all of which is brilliantly expressed in his music. The singer's job is to strike the right balance, and this scene with Wotan, whatever other purpose it may serve, is a great opportunity for character delineation.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Good point, Conte. A Mime who's a fine actor, and a Wanderer who projects the right air of knowingness, power and serenity, will certainly bring this out and make the most of the scene. Mime is a fantastic character, don't you think? He's fearful, vicious and comical at the same time, all of which is brilliantly expressed in his music. The singer's job is to strike the right balance, and this scene with Wotan, whatever other purpose it may serve, is a great opportunity for character delineation.


Contrary to most people's opinions I love Gerhard Stolze's interpretation. I know he polarises people but I like him.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> Contrary to most people's opinions I love Gerhard Stolze's interpretation. I know he polarises people but I like him.


Stolze is much better on the Karajan recording. He's almost unlistenable on the Solti.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Stolze is much better on the Karajan recording. He's almost unlistenable on the Solti.


Not to me he's not!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> Stolze is much better on the Karajan recording. *He's almost unlistenable on the Solti.*


Desmond Shaw-Taylor called it 'one of the most tiresome and anti-musical performances I have heard.'


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Desmond Shaw-Taylor called it 'one of the most tiresome and anti-musical performances I have heard.'


People talk all sorts of nonsense don't they?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> People talk all sorts of nonsense don't they?


Especially when they disagree with my opinion! :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Stolze isn't the most musical Mime and I don't like his vocal tone; certainly it's a voice suited only to "character" roles. But he's intelligent and imaginative and certainly has character! We don't want Mine to sound cute or Disneyish; we aren't supposed to like him. On Solti's extroverted recording Stolze's broad approach fits in well, and perhaps makes the voice of the aging Windgassen sound more attractive by contrast. Nowadays the heldentenor situation is such that we can easily end up with Siegfrieds who sound less impressive than their Mimes.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Especially when they disagree with my opinion! :lol:


You're the one that always puts critics down my friend.
Especially when it's about Karajan.


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Stolze isn't the most musical Mime and I don't like his vocal tone; certainly it's a voice suited only to "character" roles. But he's intelligent and imaginative and certainly has character! We don't want Mine to sound cute or Disneyish; we aren't supposed to like him. On Solti's extroverted recording Stolze's broad approach fits in well, and perhaps makes the voice of the aging Windgassen sound more attractive by contrast. Nowadays the heldentenor situation is such that we can easily end up with Siegfrieds who sound less impressive than their Mimes.


This reminds me, I heard this unusual performance of the Forging Song in Russian with Nikandr Khanaev from 1938 (the Mime was Alexandr Peregudov) where the squillante, biting quality of both voices is exceptional - I thought the Mime could sing Siegfried if he had wanted  




Not 'pretty' but I like the tempo and I can't think of a more dramatic version...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> You're the one that always puts critics down my friend.
> Especially when it's about Karajan.


No I put critics down when they disagree with me! Funny, so do most other people here! :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

davidglasgow said:


> This reminds me, I heard this unusual performance of the Forging Song in Russian with Nikandr Khanaev from 1938 (the Mime was Alexandr Peregudov) where the squillante, biting quality of both voices is exceptional - I thought the Mime could sing Siegfried if he had wanted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW! Do you suppose Khanaev could keep that up all evening? In Russian it sounds almost like Mussorgsky. :lol:

1938. Pre-WW II. The Golden Age. It was real, people.


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> WOW! Do you suppose Khanaev could keep that up all evening? In Russian it sounds almost like Mussorgsky. :lol:
> 
> 1938. Pre-WW II. The Golden Age. It was real, people.


I can picture him being just fine - and I'd be needing oxygen watching from the stalls :lol:


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Regarding cuts in the Ring cycle, and particularly the Mime-Wanderer scene:

This scene is an homage on Wagner's part to the Icelandic "wisdom contest" that are found in the sources he used for the Ring. In the Eddas, this is a device by which one party triumphs over the other by revealing his rival's ignorance of some crucial matter that he needs to know. And in the world of the Old Norse hero, the person with knowledge did not have a superior store of facts, he had a superior range of _experience_, or an acquaintance with people, places, and skills whose working he understands firsthand. By displaying this knowledge, he warned that his acquaintance with the world gave him an advantage, and served as a warning to the other party to withdraw. So Mime's questions are cosmic questions, designed to show the dwarf is acquainted with places and powers that he knows intimately, by the kind of cunning he as acquired through his abilities as a smith that are demonstrated in his forging of the Tarnhelm. But this backfires, as he soon finds out the Wanderer knows the whole scheme of things, and revealing in his description of the gods that he belongs at the very top. On the other hand, Wotan's questions to Mime, go straight to the heart of what Mime is: a smith who has sought to make a free being into his own tool, much like Wotan in Die Walküre, and therefore has lost his only virtue which is the ability to make tools of his own.

This background helps make a little more sense of the scene, but it still doesn't seem to _propel_ the story forward in any meaningful way, or to be crucial to the action that follows, and it may be though of as disposable in that sense. Yet in their book Finding an Ending: Reflections on Wagner's Ring, Philip Kitcher and Richard Schacht make the astute observation that through his questions to the dwarf, the Wanderer plants in the scheme of things the information and the motivation that will lead to Siegfried's forging of the sword but without in any way helping Siegfried to this goal. In other words, the contest provides Wotan with the means to accomplish his will _for_ Siegfried while at the same time withdrawing his will _from_ Siegfried. He does not make the same mistake of planting the sword for him to find; he simply ensures that Mime, in his confusion, will point Siegfried in the right direction.


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