# Music and the future – what do you think?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Artists are sometimes considered the canaries of mankind -- they’re testing the air, as they used to do in mines -- and letting us know what our future holds.

It seems to me that, since Beethoven wrote his life-affirming and optimistic music, things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook. This is in spite of the fact that the world is largely wealthier, healthier, and more than in his day, with more people living in democracies and enjoying longer lives – all this can easily be checked.

So what’s up?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Artists are sometimes considered the canaries of mankind -- they're testing the air, as they used to do in mines -- and letting us know what our future holds.
> 
> It seems to me that, since Beethoven wrote his life-affirming and optimistic music, things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook. This is in spite of the fact that the world is largely wealthier, healthier, and more than in his day, with more people living in democracies and enjoying longer lives - all this can easily be checked.
> 
> So what's up?


Perhaps it is a matter of the higher you rise, the further you have to fall. ;-)


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

We had a thread like this recently, Can you hear the music of the future?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm not sure I agree that music became more pessimistic after Beethoven. It's certainly true that _some _ post-Beethoven composers wrote darker music (Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg). But lots of French music from around the same time period seems quite upbeat.

For example, many pieces by Saint-Saëns, Debussy and Ravel strike me as joyful and optimistic. And, moving a bit further into the 20th century, much of Poulenc and Milhaud seems positively euphoric!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Because while we may be standing atop a 5 story house, the house has loose bricks and everyone knows it.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I rather like what Western art has produced since the death of Beethoven, and quite a few things that is producing right now.

So, no, I think the future is bright, just as it was the past.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

violadude said:


> Because while we may be standing atop a 5 story house, the house has loose bricks and everyone knows it.


I believe this to be true. Leaving aside ideas about a vengeful deity suddenly destroying the earth, it was almost impossible for someone in Beethoven's time to contemplate a world coming to an end, or of things spiraling downward globally to engulf everyone and everything. But such ideas gained credibility with the ideas of Malthus, then the horrors of World War I, and then the more advanced horrors of WWII--including genocide on a vast and organized scale. And now we have the grim reality of exploding world populations coupled with vastly increased use of toxic and exotic materials overwhelming the biosphere's ability to cleanse itself, leading to mass extinctions of whole ecosystems and to irreversible climate change. Unless one has tunnel vision, it is difficult for an artist--or anyone conversant with the realities beyond living the good life, today, now--to produce an authentically affirmative art. But indeed that selfsame tunnel vision is, for many, the necessary tool or aid in keeping one's sanity from day to day.

I can recommend the poetry of my avatar, Robinson Jeffers, as a prime example of a modern, informed artist grappling with the realities of today's world.

Here is the ending of Jeffers' poem, The Purse-Seine.....

Lately I was looking from a night mountain-top
On a wide city, the colored splendor, galaxies of light: 
how could I help but recall the seine-net
Gathering the luminous fish? I cannot tell you how 
beautiful the city appeared, and a little terrible.
I thought, We have geared the machines and locked all together 
into inter-dependence; we have built the great cities; now
There is no escape. We have gathered vast populations incapable 
of free survival, insulated
From the strong earth, each person in himself helpless, on all 
dependent. The circle is closed, and the net
Is being hauled in. They hardly feel the cords drawing, yet 
they shine already. The inevitable mass-disasters
Will not come in our time nor in our children's, but we 
and our children
Must watch the net draw narrower, government take all 
powers--or revolution, and the new government
Take more than all, add to kept bodies kept souls--or anarchy, 
the mass-disasters.
These things are Progress;
Do you marvel our verse is troubled or frowning, while it keeps 
its reason? Or it lets go, lets the mood flow
In the manner of the recent young men into mere hysteria, 
splintered gleams, crackled laughter. But they are 
quite wrong.
There is no reason for amazement: surely one always knew 
that cultures decay, and life's end is death.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I'm not sure I agree that music became more pessimistic after Beethoven. It's certainly true that _some _ post-Beethoven composers wrote darker music (Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg). But lots of French music from around the same time period seems quite upbeat.
> 
> For example, many pieces by Saint-Saëns, Debussy and Ravel strike me as joyful and optimistic. And, moving a bit further into the 20th century, much of Poulenc and Milhaud seems positively euphoric!


Yes. Right after Beethoven came Berlioz. I don't hear the pessimism in his music.

Jumping into today's world, given the state of the world, with so much poverty, 2% of the world's population holding on to much of the world's wealth, incredible government corruption and the human urge not to be able to live in peace and instead governments spending their money on guns, planes and bombs to go to war and kill other humans, how can today's music not reflect this?

People have learned nothing from darkest history. They repeat the urge to hate, murder, destroy and ignore dreadful poverty.

Unfortunately we live in pessimistic times and music needs to reflect the anger, frustration and sadness of it all.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

After listening to some minimalism, all I'm expecting from the future is more of the same.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> It seems to me that, since Beethoven wrote his life-affirming and optimistic music, things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook. This is in spite of the fact that the world is largely wealthier, healthier, and more than in his day, with more people living in democracies and enjoying longer lives - all this can easily be checked.
> 
> So what's up?


I have a sinking feeling that the good times (for those fortunate enough to experience them) aren't going to last much longer. And for all the reasons Strange Magic mentioned. And there are large numbers of citizens of so called democracies that are living in poverty, and whose vital interests are ignored. And billions still living under tyrannical regimes. Reading about the projected population levels, environmental degradation, and scarcity of resources mankind with be dealing with by mid century is more than slightly alarming. And it's a recipe for disaster that is not being addressed vigorously enough by the leaders of the powerful nations. And my own country's new leadership? I won't even go there, but it doesn't look very encouraging.

All this aside, I don't normally make associations of these kinds with much of the music I listen to. I just listen to a piece as pure music, and enjoy the craft, artistry, musical elements, and emotions it brings to me as a conscious, warm blooded human being.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> the world is largely wealthier,


wealth can't buy anything but wealth.



KenOC said:


> healthier,


seems more sick these days then in Beethoven times.



KenOC said:


> with more people living in democracies


is that an ok thing ?



KenOC said:


> and enjoying longer lives


as old people and clients of pharmacies.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I think it will become highly personalized...Like everything else...Everyone will be able to produce his own style...But i dont think it will increase the quality, sadly, just quantity of meaningless, annoying noise...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

In Beethoven's time the Western civilization was on the rise and the art reflected that. Now it is on the slow way downward. But of course the change did not occur after Beethoven, but much, much later.


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## Zefiro Torna (Nov 17, 2016)

The further into the past we go, the more abstract and idealized it seems to us.
There's nothing like the Grosse Fuge in any of Beethoven's public music, because then he wouldn't get paid and people will definitively label him as a madman. His 9th starts with gloom and ends in a frenzy, listeners leave the concert hall with a smile. And I'm not saying Beethoven was a cynic - he clearly put his souls into the music - but that all art making his constrained by the social and cultural expectations of its time.

Before the mid 19th century most of the darkest or more idiosyncratic music is made for a private setting, and when that happened in public it was in some sort of storytelling scenario (opera, sacred works, descriptive music, etc). Then the creator would be more free to subvert around. 

After that it has been increasingly acceptable to churn sad, depressing, desperate, confrontational music into the unsuspected masses. Which can look like nobody is making optimist, life affirming music anymore, and that's totally not true.

On the other hand, we can't move along and make art like the horrors of the last century(ies) didn't happened. That would be just plain stupid.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Artists are sometimes considered the canaries of mankind -- they're testing the air, as they used to do in mines -- and letting us know what our future holds.
> 
> *It seems to me that, since Beethoven wrote his life-affirming and optimistic music, things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook*. This is in spite of the fact that the world is largely wealthier, healthier, and more than in his day, with more people living in democracies and enjoying longer lives - all this can easily be checked.
> 
> So what's up?


you are probably just depressed and sad and seeing the world through that lens. Trending downward since Beethoven? Really? C'mon man, pull yourself together.

there is a litany of great and uplifting music after Beethoven


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> you are probably just depressed and sad and seeing the world through that lens.


but that is a viable approach; at least way more viable than unfounded optimism of so-called 'progressives'.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2016)

KenOC said:


> things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook.
> 
> So what's up?


100% opinion, that's what's up.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Somehow, not talking about politics altho one might argue, that everything went south after the WW2...A real Twilight of Gods...And values.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Personally, I've always felt that music does an awful job of expressing anything more than the simplest emotions so I generally have no idea what a piece is meant to express, if anything, unless I read about the work. I have not noticed such a negative outlook in music, but perhaps those who do investigate musical meanings could be more specific about recent trends. Mostly I listen to modern/contemporary music and much of it seems roughly similar in outlook to past music mostly because I don't hear any particular outlook in the music.

Could those who both agree or disagree with the OP give specific examples of how music has "trended downward in attitude" or not?

Also this thread has a significant possibility of becoming more political. Could I remind people to focus on the music and not the politics. One can simply state that they agree or disagree with the path of the world since Beethoven and then move to music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Flamme said:


> Somehow, not talking about politics altho one might argue, that everything went south after the WW2...A real Twilight of Gods...And values.


That's not exactly true. 70 years of a mostly peaceful Europe (the Balkans tragedy notwithstanding) isn't a bad thing. Post WWII Germany, Japan, and Britain being much preferable to the first half of the 20th century. But we've outgrown the planet, and there's nowhere else to go at current technological standards.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Personally, I've always felt that music does an awful job of expressing anything more than the simplest emotions so I generally have no idea what a piece is meant to express, if anything, unless I read about the work.


My sentiments as well. And it kinda bugs me when classical music announcers and commentators spend minutes talking about supposed concrete meanings and emotions that a certain piece represents.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Flamme said:


> Somehow, not talking about politics altho one might argue, that everything went south after the WW2...A real Twilight of Gods...And values.


the best economic times we've seen here in America were the decades after the war up to the oil embargo in 1973.

Hell, we went to the moon, invented the computer, we Americans even gave you guys the Internet

and what about that "second renaissance" of the Internet? The first renaissance was the printing press that enabled us all to read, the internet lets us all publish...

lots of depressed folks that don't know how good they really have it is what it sounds like.

not me. I don't have time to be getting depressed, I have to play a bunch of gigs next month

I know its dark and cold out there, but c'mon boys, its only November. If you are going to give up this easy and this early you are going to be miserable in February


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

We've got to be careful and not make all this gloom and despondency a self-fulfilling prophecy. Be careful what you wish for! Or even just always look on the bright side of life. 

I imagine I'm more a glass half full kind of person. I'm sometimes too upbeat for my own good and frequently my wife gets to the point that she wants to throw a net over me or reach for the tranquillisers.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> We've got to be careful and not make all this gloom and despondency a self-fulfilling prophecy. Be careful what you wish for! Or even just always look on the bright side of life.
> 
> I imagine I'm more a glass half full kind of person. I'm sometimes too upbeat for my own good and frequently my wife gets to the point that she wants to throw a net over me or reach for the tranquillisers.


While I too am personally an optimist, leading a relatively pleasant and cheerful life, I am also a realist to the core. The key is to remain mentally healthy while gazing directly into What is To Come. How will you feel, how will I feel, when we learn that the last wild lion, or tiger, or orangutan or giraffe, is gone?

I think composers are also mostly optimists, in the sense that their work so fully absorbs them, and they are so sensitive to the beauty and power of music, that they remain capable of composing affirmative works throughout--look at Bela Bartok in his final, fatal years. But writers, poets, users and creators of words and visual images, are more exposed by the more concrete nature of their art and media to real-world tragedy--both close and far away, and their work reflects this more.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> While I too am personally an optimist, leading a relatively pleasant and cheerful life, I am also a realist to the core. The key is to remain mentally healthy while gazing directly into What is To Come. How will you feel, how will I feel, when we learn that the last wild lion, or tiger, or orangutan or giraffe, is gone?


Indeed,and that we at last rule this planet.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

The answer is the whole thing we've been doing since the 18th century - call it "modernity," "liberalism," whatever - has failed and was always doomed to fail. Everyone was wrong. Oops!


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I have to ask, if you learned that the last tiger was gone...

Have you ever seen a tiger in the wild yourself? I imagine you would read this information on your phone off the internet

so how would you feel? why would you feel? 

so what I'm getting at is that it seems to me that it is the urban people who never get out into the wilderness that are dead set on "preserving" the wilderness, even though they have no clue what wild natural land is all about

I live out in a rural area. I leave a lot of my property as habitat for wild animals. I share my land with all manner of animals, even animals that aren't cute or cuddly. They have a right to live, too, you know.

so while you are going on about extinctions, are you still using your PlayStation with its rare earth metals in it? do you use a cell phone? Do you promote wind turbines that decimate migratory birds, including our bald eagles?

...just asking


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> The answer is the whole thing we've been doing since the 18th century - call it "modernity," "liberalism," whatever - has failed and was always doomed to fail. Everyone was wrong. Oops!


on the skids since the 18th century???

my granddad said its when we gave women the vote that we chucked it all away :lol:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> I have to ask, if you learned that the last tiger was gone...
> 
> Have you ever seen a tiger in the wild yourself? I imagine you would read this information on your phone off the internet
> 
> ...


And what is your view? What Is To Be Done? What would be a better world? Will that better world come? Just asking


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Nate Miller said:


> the best economic times we've seen here in America were the decades after the war up to the oil embargo in 1973.
> 
> Hell, we went to the moon, invented the computer, we Americans even gave you guys the Internet
> 
> ...


Not me either - I am getting married soon. But that does not change the fact that my fiance's fellow countrymen once had Bach and Beethoven, and yet much later Wagner and Richard Strauss. And now - what? From the purely materialistic viewpoint we are all better off, sure. But spiritually - something is gone.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> I imagine I'm more a glass half full kind of person.


that positivist stance is a self delusion, as practice shows.

should learn to be creative while being pessimistic.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> that positivist stance is a self delusion, as practice shows.
> 
> should learn to be creative while being pessimistic.


Yes. I have tried to convince myself many times, that everything (as relating to the general destiny of mankind/civilization) is going to be just fine - and deep down I still know it's a lie.

And a dose of pessimism is also psychologically healthier than living with your head up in the clouds and being severely disappointed one day. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, as the saying goes.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Not me either - I am getting married soon. But that does not change the fact that my fiance's fellow countrymen once had Bach and Beethoven, and yet much later Wagner and Richard Strauss. And now - what? From the purely materialistic viewpoint we are all better off, sure. But spiritually - something is gone.


now this I can agree with. what do they have now? Kraftwerk? the Scorpions? I feel your pain

at least my country gave the world jazz. We have Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Bud Powel, Art Tatum...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Nate Miller said:


> now this I can agree with. what do they have now? Kraftwerk? the Scorpions? I feel your pain
> 
> at least my country gave the world jazz. We have Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Bud Powel, Art Tatum...


Scorpions are a decent band actually. They pretty much introduced me to music when I was a tiny kid and had zero idea of what events "Wind of Change" was about. But they still just do not compare. And jazz, in my humble opinion, does not compare either.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> And what is your view? What Is To Be Done? What would be a better world? Will that better world come? Just asking


to be honest, I understand that extinction happens. The history of the planet is the story of mass extinctions.

having a species wiped out because we want to use their tonsils for parts for our cell phones is complete ********, so I have no problem with protective status for certain species, but you have to also be reasonable

if you play certain instruments, it may have been common practice to use ivory 100 years ago for some parts of your instrument. These days, try going through customs with an ivory tipped bow and see what happens. that is a case of over-reach. People today cannot be accountable for what was done in the past.

so I support regulation within reason, and I understand that extinction is a part of the story of our Good Earth


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Scorpions are a decent band actually. They pretty much introduced me to music when I was a tiny kid and had zero idea of what events "Wind of Change" was about. But they still just do not compare.


I listened to them when I was a kid, too. And also UFO with Rudi's brother Michael


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> So what's up?


Two world wars. The failure of the USSR. The increase in global inequality. Guantanamo. Global Warming. Hiroshima. 9/11. Palestine. . .


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Nate Miller said:


> I listened to them when I was a kid, too. And also UFO with Rudi's brother Michael


I used to listen to a lot of German "power metal" bands as a teen: Helloween, Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian etc. Now they are all too globalist for me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> Personally, I've always felt that music does an awful job of expressing anything more than the simplest emotions so I generally have no idea what a piece is meant to express, if anything, unless I read about the work. I have not noticed such a negative outlook in music, but perhaps those who do investigate musical meanings could be more specific about recent trends. Mostly I listen to modern/contemporary music and much of it seems roughly similar in outlook to past music mostly because I don't hear any particular outlook in the music.
> 
> Could those who both agree or disagree with the OP give specific examples of how music has "trended downward in attitude" or not?
> 
> Also this thread has a significant possibility of becoming more political. Could I remind people to focus on the music and not the politics. One can simply state that they agree or disagree with the path of the world since Beethoven and then move to music.


Thanks to the Infraction Pre-Crimes Unit. The Majority Report will be issued soon.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I listen to Beethoven to protect myself from other music, not just because I like it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Personally, I've always felt that music does an awful job of expressing anything more than the simplest emotions


Or maybe the most complex emotions, those that are beyond verbal description, so cannot be explained nor summed up in a musical programme.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I disagree with the OP. Things are rough now, things were rough then. I don't think music in general is any more or less life affirming today than it was then. 

Did you know that Beethoven's music was the first to essentially take two themes and make them "fight" each other? So one could make the argument that the previous composers like Bach, Haydn and Mozart were making peaceful life affirming music, until Beethoven came along and incorporated violence and ugliness into his music and then became a musical figurehead of a violent and imperialistic society. 

Now I am not saying I believe the above paragraph to be an accurate depiction of reality, I am just showing how easy it is to make up nonsensical statements and put political spin on them (like the OP) based on our musical preferences.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Philip Glass said something interesting in the special features section of Koyaanisqatsi, that music not only can accompany music, but it can actually determine the mood and how an image is interpreted.

I think the future of music will be somehow associated with imagery or cinema, or some new kind of visual art language. Wagner was right.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Did the OP sleep through the 20th Century? Where mass slaughter became commonplace and human beings were wholesale murdered and melted down into soap? Who was that said after Aushwitz, it was immoral to write any thing else in C Major?. Not everybody lives in Sunny SoCal, O.P


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Everything will continue to be wondrous and horrifying as it always has been. Music will continue to have a central core of common language to which all the centrifugal movements will add their accumulated vocabulary.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Triplets said:


> Did the OP sleep through the 20th Century? Where mass slaughter became commonplace and human beings were wholesale murdered and melted down into soap? Who was that said after Aushwitz, it was immoral to write any thing else in C Major?. Not everybody lives in Sunny SoCal, O.P


A certain curative is this book: "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined." From the NY Times: "Believe it or not, today we may be living in the most peaceful moment in our species' existence. In his gripping and controversial new work, New York Times bestselling author Steven Pinker shows that despite the ceaseless news about war, crime, and terrorism, violence has actually been in decline over long stretches of history."

In most areas where violence occurs, the drops in per capita rates of violence have been, literally, by orders of magnitude. Pinker finds one exception, war, where the per capita death rate in the 20th century is similar to that in the 19th. But lately even wars have become far less bloody affairs, at least measured by death rates.

This book is a good read for people who get their world views from the nine-o'clock news. Read the Amazon reviews for more information.

https://www.amazon.com/Better-Angel...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1479521724&sr=1-1


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If north Korea blows us up, the future of music seems even more important, so the 3-4 survivors have something to listen to. Hopefully it won't be Lang Lang's clang.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Pinker's book is an excellent one, and his argument is sound. However, the perception of widespread chaos and violence is what colors much public attitude, not necessarily the reality. The situation seems reversed, though, in assessing the actual threats to a viable future: runaway population growth, degradation of the biosphere through rapid global warming, acidification of the ocean, deforestation, loss of coral reefs and rainforests, toxins in the environment, and the relentless erosion of biodiversity--these seem, in contrast, to be underreported and relatively unimportant in the general public's daily intake of news. The public perception among many is that things environmentally are getting better all the time--this site is cleaned up, these oiled birds are saved, there are now 500 pandas in the wild in China, etc. Yet informed people--scientists especially--know differently.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Artists are sometimes considered the canaries of mankind -- they're testing the air, as they used to do in mines -- and letting us know what our future holds.
> 
> It seems to me that, since Beethoven wrote his life-affirming and optimistic music, things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook. This is in spite of the fact that the world is largely wealthier, healthier, and more than in his day, with more people living in democracies and enjoying longer lives - all this can easily be checked.
> 
> So what's up?


I don't think many of the composers after Beethoven were any less optimistic. Some where, but that's because philosophy set up itself as believing that since you could not prove the existence of God then you couldn't write optimistic, idealistic philosophies. Some painting became anti-aesthetic. But there was also people like the romantics after Beethoven, Debussy and other Impressionists, Stravinsky, RV Williams, and many other optimistic composers of beautiful music. Many people have said that we will look at present times as an experiment in praising the mundane, and finding out that it didn't work.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Pinker's book is an excellent one, and his argument is sound. However, the perception of widespread chaos and violence is what colors much public attitude, not necessarily the reality. The situation seems reversed, though, in assessing the actual threats to a viable future: runaway population growth, degradation of the biosphere through rapid global warming, acidification of the ocean, deforestation, loss of coral reefs and rainforests, toxins in the environment, and the relentless erosion of biodiversity--these seem, in contrast, to be underreported and relatively unimportant in the general public's daily intake of news. The public perception among many is that things environmentally are getting better all the time--this site is cleaned up, these oiled birds are saved, there are now 500 pandas in the wild in China, etc. Yet informed people--scientists especially--know differently.


I think that's absolutely true. People are happy enough to think the worst of our current situation and the best of our future. You're probably correct that the perception ought to be the reverse. But nobody wants to face the underlying problem: Too many people. And in fact, some believe that even a dieback would do little good now.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> A certain curative is this book: "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined." From the NY Times: "Believe it or not, today we may be living in the most peaceful moment in our species' existence. In his gripping and controversial new work, New York Times bestselling author Steven Pinker shows that despite the ceaseless news about war, crime, and terrorism, violence has actually been in decline over long stretches of history."
> 
> In most areas where violence occurs, the drops in per capita rates of violence have been, literally, by orders of magnitude. Pinker finds one exception, war, where the per capita death rate in the 20th century is similar to that in the 19th. But lately even wars have become far less bloody affairs, at least measured by death rates.
> 
> ...


I have been thinking of this topic recently and am wondering how the facts are aligned. I can see it's true that we no longer have probably many crimes of passion, or barroom fights to the death, or as much vigilante justice, and that more people are cocooning in their homes and not assembling as much in public as when there were not TV's in every home. But surely the type of horrific crimes seems to have increased over the last 20 years. Sorry I'm off track.... music of the future...will probably be even more peaceful.....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

regenmusic said:


> But surely the type of horrific crimes seems to have increased over the last 20 years.


Not necessarily. In the US, for instance, the violent crime rate has declined by over half since the early 1990s. This includes gun crime.

In the longer view, for most of history it has been very dangerous just to travel through the woods to the next village, due to banditry. People mostly had to travel in well-armed groups. Think about that next time you hop in the car to go out of town.

Violence toward women, children, and animals, while still present, is much attenuated. Crimes, even against the state, are no long subject to barbaric, outlandish punishments in most places. And so on.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Not necessarily. In the US, for instance, the violent crime rate has declined by over half since the early 1970s. This includes gun crime.
> 
> In the longer view, for most of history it has been very dangerous just to travel through the woods to the next village, due to banditry. People mostly had to travel in well-armed groups. Think about that next time you hop in the car to go out of town.
> 
> Violence toward women, children, and animals, while still present, is much attenuated. Crimes, even against the state, are no long subject to barbaric, outlandish punishments in most places. And so on.


I've been around 53 years and I don't remember all these mass shootings, kids killing kids, and women being chained up by guys and then escaping. I think you should read the reviews people gave of Pinker's book that were one or two stars.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If you live in the US, when you turn on the news you'll hear only about the worst things that happened in a nation of 325 million people. In my view, looking at the actual numbers and rates of crimes is far more enlightening. The data are readily available on Wiki and, for instance, the DOJ and FBI web sites. Of course, this isn't "news" and you'll seldom hear about it.

Here's a quickie:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

IN a nutshell, it comes down to short-term and/or easily-perceived versus long-term or more obscure threats and the perception of those threats. Humans have evolved to react to and deal with the short-term, obvious danger--what should I be afraid of right now?: Personal attack, running out of food or water, or money, etc. Even wars are relatively short-term; even the Hundred Years War was actually a series of episodes and finally petered away. But it is the relentless yet quiet long-term, century-plus forces that are threatening our existence and that of our fellow creatures, starting and ending with runaway population growth coupled with the powerful multiplier of technology. Consider: in 1950 the world's population was some 2.4 billions and had been growing steadily to that number for quite some time. With the advent of new food production and disease-prevention technologies, the population has rapidly grown to over 7 billions and climbing, yet few are concerned let alone aware of this. The negative consequences of this became increasingly apparent to a few thoughtful people: in 1954 the geologist/physicist Harrison Brown published _The Challenge of Man's Future_, a clear-eyed assessment of where we were heading, praised by Albert Einstein. In the 1960s we had both Paul Ehrlich's _The Population Bomb_ and Garrett Hardin's shattering essay _The Tragedy of the Commons_, which brought home to some few what we were dealing with. Yet the long-term nature of these trends made them easily ignored and also overwhelmed by the ideology of the wonders and benefits of Endless Growth, both economic and population, that are strongly prevalent in much of the world today. The president of Turkey has just reminded the women of that country that they are unequal to men, that their primary function is motherhood, and that they should strive to have 3 children at a minimum.....

Composers, for the reasons I have stated, are likely to be mostly unaffected by these trends. But a case could be made that the other arts and artists are increasingly aware, perhaps even only unconsciously, of an growing sense of global malaise, and that this is reflected in their work. Meanwhile, the general population, also growingly aware that Something Is Wrong, seeks anaesthesia wherever and however it can be gotten....


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> If you live in the US, when you turn on the news you'll hear only about the worst things that happened in a nation of 325 million people. In my view, looking at the actual numbers and rates of crimes is far more enlightening. The data are readily available on Wiki and, for instance, the DOJ and FBI web sites. Of course, this isn't "news" and you'll seldom hear about it.
> 
> Here's a quickie:


While I don't doubt the overall veracity of the statistics, practices for evaluating violent crime have been corrupted in at least one major city in the U.S. For years, precincts in New York City had been under such pressure to demonstrate reductions in violent crime that they resorted to systematically downgrading crimes into non-violent categories. In Washington Heights a few years back, one offender committed seven violent sexual assaults, six of which were downgraded to things like breaking and entering. To make this happen the police browbeat victims into modifying their complaints. The result was that a serial sex offender was kept off the radar and allowed to offend repeatedly because, obviously, no one could recognize a pattern of crime that was intentionally covered up. Had he not finally been caught in the act there is no telling how long this might have continued. I hope this is an isolated situation but have no way of knowing.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

KenOC said:


> It seems to me that, since Beethoven wrote his life-affirming and optimistic music, things in Western art (and music) have largely trended downward in outlook.


It seems to me that Western art/music trended _*AWAY*_ from Beethoven - not downward.
My perspective is that 'optimism' and/or life-affirming aesthetics are not the high point (or apex or zenith) of humanity. Speaking for myself, I listen to music which possesses 'abrasive' qualities (which is much preferable to me over the tidiness of orderly tonal music).
Chromaticism and atonality are the foundations of music after WW I.

Beethoven's death in 1827 occurred during the middle of the Industrial Revolution (which has been categorized as staring in 1712 and ceasing by 1942).
In my opinion, as members of Western civilization enjoyed easier lives with respect to transportation, communication, labor, household chores, medicine, increased recreational time, etc. they've become increasingly more realistic and less spiritual - and yes - more fetishistic, more idiosyncratic & more perverse.

All human beings possess some sort of perversion in one way or another, and I daresay most of us no longer consider the human body as a vessel of a Deity.
I think the human race as grown away from the notions of our forefathers which presuppose that life is something sacred - and I think the people who like the music of Beethoven are people who are also attempting to carry the torch of Romanticism (or else resuscitate its remains) into a 21st century which no longer has much care or use for such lofty notions in art.

So ... you can flush yer Romantic optimism down da toilet [... and, yes, THAT is a trend downward ]


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Feminists don't like the idea of "genius" either, and they are especially put-off by "staggering" geniuses. They would call the cops immediately, no doubt.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> In the US, for instance, the violent crime rate has declined by over half since the early 1990s. This includes gun crime.


That's hard to believe, in light of all the mass shootings we've experienced in the past 20 years or so. It also makes me suspicious of statistics, and how they can distort things.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2016)

And because we are safe you see that the money spend for armoury is increasing to reinforce the armies.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Prodromides said:


> … I think the people who like the music of Beethoven are people who are also attempting to carry the torch of Romanticism (or else resuscitate its remains) into a 21st century which no longer has much care or use for such lofty notions in art.
> 
> So ... you can flush yer Romantic optimism down da toilet [... and, yes, THAT is a trend downward ]


Now that is an idea ripe for the flusher!  It is absurd to make generalizations about groups as diverse as "people who like the music of Beethoven."


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> Feminists don't like the idea of "genius" either, and they are especially put-off by "staggering" geniuses. They would call the cops immediately, no doubt.


This just reminds me of another discussion elsewhere. It certainly looks like some people refuse to recognize a phenomenon called "genius". Or give it the value some other people are doing, calling it a "problematic construct" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_art_criticism#Genius). This just fascinates me.. And makes me wonder if it is one of the reasons why Geat Masters are gone. Modern day refuses to recognize them, and instead is flattening everything, just to make nobody feel bad.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> That's hard to believe, in light of all the mass shootings we've experienced in the past 20 years or so. It also makes me suspicious of statistics, and how they can distort things.


If you look at lists of mass shootings in the US, in Wiki for instance, you'll find that the total fatalities each year are an absolutely insignificant portion of total violent deaths. Even school massacres, that seem so new and so big, are blips in the data and have been with us a long time. The largest loss of life in a school massacre in the US was 45 people, back in 1927 -- the Bath School Disaster.

I'm thinking our fears of violence are a product of reporting, certainly not a reflection of the way things are actually moving. Some time ago I read of a study that showed a close correlation between fear of walking the streets at night and hours of TV watched each day.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> If you look at lists of mass shootings in the US, in Wiki for instance, you'll find that the total fatalities each year are an absolutely insignificant portion of total violent deaths. Even school massacres, that seem so new and so big, are blips in the data and have been with us a long time. The largest loss of life in a school massacre in the US was 45 people, back in 1927 -- the Bath School Disaster.
> 
> I'm thinking our fears of violence are a product of reporting, certainly not a reflection of the way things are actually moving. Some time ago I read of a study that showed a close correlation between fear of walking the streets at night and hours of TV watched each day.


I think part of the reason for this phenomena you are describing is the fact that we have developed weapons of mass destruction so little wars and skirmishes are no longer as viable a solution for solving problems as they can quickly escalate into Armageddon type scenarios. Certainly not something that I think contributes to a general feeling of living in a peaceful society. We live in a world where the threat of total annihilation from war and from greed is constantly hanging over our heads.

Also I do think psychological and covert warfare is up, most likely also covert experimentation on societies of people, deceit and manipulation is rampant in virtually all areas of life. Mental illness rates are very high (probably higher than ever). Economic fears are about at the highest threshold and the majority of the population are poor debt slaves. I don't believe we are really living in better times, but very harsh times that are trying to masquerade as better times.

On a more optimistic note I think we are also living in a time where we actually have the ability to solve a lot of our problems. So we are also possibly on the verge of finally creating a better world. I think it comes down to whether enough people will demand the "powers that be" to release the technologies they have been suppressing for decades. Also to create new fair and transparent financial and government systems that aren't based on lies, greed and manipulation.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Is it still music, if thanks to North Korea, there is nobody left to hear it?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

tdc said:


> ...I don't believe we are really living in better times, but very harsh times that are trying to masquerade as better times.


How many times a week are you able to eat meat? How long, on average, do your friends and family live? Has anybody starved in your neighborhood in the time you've lived there? Been unable to find medical care?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> If you look at lists of mass shootings in the US, in Wiki for instance, you'll find that the total fatalities each year are an absolutely insignificant portion of total violent deaths. Even school massacres, that seem so new and so big, are blips in the data and have been with us a long time. The largest loss of life in a school massacre in the US was 45 people, back in 1927 -- the Bath School Disaster.
> 
> I'm thinking our fears of violence are a product of reporting, certainly not a reflection of the way things are actually moving. Some time ago I read of a study that showed a close correlation between fear of walking the streets at night and hours of TV watched each day.


Someone wasn´t shot every week in my city 20 years ago.
Nobody through hand granates at public buildings.
There were no riots.
No stones throw at buses and ambulances.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Our memory can play tricks sometimes. In the nearest big city to where I live:

“In 2013, Los Angeles reported 296 homicides in the city proper, which corresponds to a rate of 6.3 per 100,000 population—a notable decrease from 1980, when the all time homicide rate of 34.2 per 100,000 population was reported for the year.”

In other words, the rate of homicides in LA declined by about three-quarters over 33 years. Not something you’d expect from watching the news!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> How many times a week are you able to eat meat? How long, on average, do your friends and family live? Has anybody starved in your neighborhood in the time you've lived there? Been unable to find medical care?


Sure there are some great luxuries we have that folks in the past did not, we also have accumulated some problems they did not have. There are problems underlying all of those points you brought up. The amount of meat consumed in the western diet is not environmentally sustainable, we are brutalizing animals and the planet. Long life is great, but is a long tough life as a debt slave so great? Things could certainly be improved in terms of _quality_ of life.

I'm not saying everything is bad. Both then and now there is plenty to be grateful for. I am grateful for many things in my life and I acknowledge some things have gotten better.

Speaking of starvation there are still countless people starving in many places in the world needlessly. Medical care is nice but also brutalizes people financially, drugs up many needlessly (I'm not saying _all_ drugs are needless, but our system has created doctors that are drug pushers and patients that are often guinea pigs) this process has created health problems, massive addiction, and destroyed many lives. Literally hundreds of thousands of people are killed in medical care every year in the United States alone.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

You make it sound pretty grim. But tell me...which century would you prefer you, your family, and your friends to be living in? You might want to think what life was really like in those days...

Certainly we all have worries. I worry that my big-screen TV isn't affixed to the wall and will fall over in the next earthquake. The horror! 

But mostly (to appease the mods) I worry that so little CM I enjoy is being written any more.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

This is again an ideological matter. Was technology and urban life an advance of humanity? What about the sexual revolution of the 60s? Depends on who you ask.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> You make it sound pretty grim. But tell me...which century would you prefer you, your family, and your friends to be living in? You might want to think what life was really like in those days...


Fact is neither of us really know what life was like in those days. We often talk about outer circumstances but happiness is more of an inner condition.

Sure plenty of improvements have been made in our day to day lives, but Beethoven did not have to worry about the NSA or nuclear war either. I also think that history has been presented to us in a way to make it appear as though we are progressing in a straight line and things have never been better than now, but there are many things in earth's history that are difficult to explain based on the official story. History has been written by those who win wars and those who want to stay in power. Technology can be used to free humanity or enslave them, I'm just pointing out we have a long way to go still in terms of having real freedom.

It is like the metaphor in the first Matrix movie, we can choose to ignore all this bad stuff and just enjoy the (illusory) pleasures around us, but is that really virtuous?

I don't bring up these things because I enjoy making people think about dark and depressing things (I really don't and prefer to talk about music) but I think we should talk about these things sometimes. I also think we can still be grateful for the big picture, and have a positive outlook in the process. Only by acknowledging these issues can we start to fix these problems.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

I feel like the world has lost its nobleness in the past century. With the rise of industrialization, the decline of religion in the general population (not to be confused with the rise of extremism; they're two different concepts), the massive flood of humans from the country side to bigger and bigger cities, men became impersonal, more selfish (or less compassionate), more money driven, more anxious, more irritated and exhausted from the constant competition at school, at work, etc. Men has lost its purpose. Religion and nobility used to be his purpose. Men does have everything he wants now and yet he isn't satisfied, isn't fulfilled, isn't happy. How could you be happy when you live in a filthy and crowded city of millions of people where nobody knows your name, nobody says hello, nobody visits you in the evening or on the weekend, where your only interactions with others are via the Internet. Virtual relationships, that's all you get. And then you wonder why people are more and more sceptical about the future?


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## scott777 (Oct 9, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> Hell, we ... , invented the computer, we Americans even gave you guys the Internet


Us Brits played a pretty big part too in the invention of computers and the internet. In fact I suspect we invented computers (Alan Turing) and the Web (Berners-Lee).


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

scott777 said:


> Us Brits played a pretty big part too in the invention of computers and the internet. In fact I suspect we invented computers (Alan Turing) and the Web (Berners-Lee).


Too late. Leaving the EU completely ruined your reputation.  (Sorry, that was over the top. Just a litttle humor.)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Gouldanian said:


> I feel like the world has lost its nobleness in the past century. With the rise of industrialization, the decline of religion in the general population (not to be confused with the rise of extremism; they're two different concepts), the massive flood of humans from the country side to bigger and bigger cities, men became impersonal, more selfish (or less compassionate), more money driven, more anxious, more irritated and exhausted from the constant competition at school, at work, etc. Men has lost its purpose. Religion and nobility used to be his purpose. Men does have everything he wants now and yet he isn't satisfied, isn't fulfilled, isn't happy.


I can't identify with the above views. Most of the folks I know are quite satisfied and happy; I'm one of them.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> I can't identify with the above views. Most of the folks I know are quite satisfied and happy; I'm one of them.


Well I am too. But I wasn't talking about myself nor about the people that I know, which in general tend to be of similar background, lifestyle and preferences than mine. I was talking about the world in general from what I see on the news, what I see at work, what I read online, my conversations with others, etc. It doesn't seem to me that "most" people are happy and satisfied. Most recent proof of that is the U.S. presidential election. People are angry and frustrated for many reasons.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Gouldanian said:


> How could you be happy when you live in a filthy and crowded city of millions of people where nobody knows your name, nobody says hello, nobody visits you in the evening or on the weekend, where your only interactions with others are via the Internet. Virtual relationships, that's all you get. And then you wonder why people are more and more sceptical about the future?


Ehm.... maybe that is your situation, but it does not mean the same is true about everybody else. And pardon my uninvited advice, but if you are suffereing from a lack of real-life friendships, then get offline, go and find some.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Ehm.... maybe that is your situation, but it does not mean the same is true about everybody else. And pardon my uninvited advice, but if you are suffereing from a lack of real-life friendships, then get offline, go and find some.


I think that post was uncalled for.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Francis Poulenc said:


> I think that post was uncalled for.


Well, the issue of not having real-life relationships is, unlike the more global problems such as pollution, terrorism or disappearance of species, quite easy to change.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

KenOC said:


> A certain curative is this book: "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined." From the NY Times: "Believe it or not, today we may be living in the most peaceful moment in our species' existence. In his gripping and controversial new work, New York Times bestselling author Steven Pinker shows that despite the ceaseless news about war, crime, and terrorism, violence has actually been in decline over long stretches of history."
> 
> In most areas where violence occurs, the drops in per capita rates of violence have been, literally, by orders of magnitude. Pinker finds one exception, war, where the per capita death rate in the 20th century is similar to that in the 19th. But lately even wars have become far less bloody affairs, at least measured by death rates.
> 
> ...


An interesting coincidence, because I happen to be reading that book at the moment. I've had this same argument with my Brother in law, who then foisted the book upon me. I simply do not agree wth the Authors premise. He basically argues that because the population of the Planet is so much greater during the 20th Century, that the number of people killed as a percentage of the total population is less than in earlier times. For example, if the total homo sapien population of the world numbered 100 , and 25 of them died in a free for all, then that time according to him is a more violent time then the 20th Century, because a lesser percentage of the planet died.
What is the old saying? Lies, Damn Lies, and statistics? If education and enlightenment are supposedly to benefit us all, then we shouldn't have the kill all mentality that our hunter gather progenitors had. It took mass educatio, advances in science and industry that were heretofore unanticipated, to produce the mass slaughters of the 20 th Century. All the Industrial know how of I G Farben was used to produce gas chambers, poison gas and in general mechanize the German War Machine. Fritz Haber won the Nobel and probably saved the Planet from the predictions of Thomas Malthus, but he also invented poison gas and personally directed the first application. Look how many brilliant economists supported Marxism and tried to justify it's horrors in the name ideology and progress. Or how much great wisdom produced atomic bombs which can wipe us all off the planet? And yet you wonder why no smiley faces from Composers who witness this but don't live in a mindless bubble?


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

The problem in today's society is that while our material comfort has increased, our spiritual and social lives have been decimated. The conditions of modern society are extremely unfavourable to mental health.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Francis Poulenc said:


> The problem in today's society is that while our material comfort has increased, our spiritual and social lives have been decimated. The conditions of modern society are extremely unfavourable to mental health.


Material comfort is always good (although some people might argue that it always leads to mediocrity), right?

Sometimes I think it is the fast moving pace of technology and society that makes people numb, afraid of real "spiritual" (sorry for the word, it doesn't mean necessarily anything like religion) investment. I mean, if you do something anecdotal, like going to some "basement" for studing ancient musical scriptures (like they say Bruckner did) for years, the world is completely changed, and everything you learned is a waste. In the times of Bach or Beethoven, one could be pretty sure things work the same in 20-30 years. That is a kind of time view that encourages individual for great things. Of course, this is just one of the many, many angles.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think we are working toward societies where people get exactly what they want, all the time. Maybe we should ask, is that a good thing? And what are the alternatives?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Surely this thread is a joke. Classical music prior to Beethoven was a mere delicacy for an aristocracy, freaks of nature who if ever left their vaunted estates would have discovered they live in a world of abject misery where entire continents were enslaved and pillaged in service to maintaining their creature comforts. Classical music not a barometer on the general welfare of man whatsoever.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Nate Miller said:


> the best economic times we've seen here in America were the decades after the war up to the oil embargo in 1973.
> 
> Hell, we went to the moon, invented the computer, we Americans even gave you guys the Internet
> 
> ...


Yeah but the hangover of the "better living through chemistry" 50's and 60's era set in with the 70's with our enslavement to oil prices exposed, smoggy cities, lead everywhere, undrinkable water, depleted ozone, a nation addicted to cigarettes, painkillers, and antidepressants. It seems the hangover from the internet boom is starting to become apparent, tweeting 140 characters to each other doesn't cultivate the highest levels of human thought, staring into screens is not the most fulfilling of human experiences, an online media competing for daily ad impressions doesn't take the time to produce thoughtful and accurate content...

Technology has really just moved us up the hierarchy of needs a notch. With our basic physical needs largely not needing day-to-day worry, we have the comfort to be neurotic over the insanity of our culture.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Richard8655 said:


> Too late. Leaving the EU completely ruined your reputation.  (Sorry, that was over the top. Just a litttle humor.)


*WE HAVEN'T LEFT YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *

(Sorry - sore point.... I'm all right now, just need a nice cup of tea....)


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

KenOC said:


> But nobody wants to face the underlying problem: Too many people. And in fact, some believe that even a dieback would do little good now.


buddy, I am saying this to you in the sincerest interest of trying to help you, but you are so FOS, you really need to get away from the Internet and learn some actual science.

in your despair, you are talking about genocide being the only solution. Listen, to the east of your California, is a vast wilderness. you should see it from the air. Mountain after mountain and there is absolutely nothing out there.

no, this good Earth can manage us humans, and if it couldn't, it would shake us off like a dog shakes off fleas.

go learn some real science. it will help your peace of mind


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> buddy, I am saying this to you in the sincerest interest of trying to help you, but you are so FOS, you really need to get away from the Internet and learn some actual science.
> 
> in your despair, you are talking about genocide being the only solution. Listen, to the east of your California, is a vast wilderness. you should see it from the air. Mountain after mountain and there is absolutely nothing out there.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, I inquire as to your assessment of an upper limit to earth's human population. Let's stipulate that everyone will have access, should they choose, to all material aids and comforts of the average middle-class American. Give us some of your version of real science; I look forward to your instruction.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Out of curiosity, I inquire as to your assessment of an upper limit to earth's human population. Let's stipulate that everyone will have access, should they choose, to all material aids and comforts of the average middle-class American. Give us some of your version of real science; I look forward to your instruction.


I think the technologies are there to deal with the population issues. I think it is possible to build cities on the ocean for example but more importantly to explore out into the universe. I suspect we have the technology right now to transform our world into a Star Trek type society.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Francis Poulenc said:


> This is again an ideological matter. Was technology and urban life an advance of humanity? What about the sexual revolution of the 60s? Depends on who you ask.


So you prefer the hunting and gathering days before the great cities of Ur and the chaos wrought by the invention of the wheel?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

tdc said:


> I think the technologies are there to deal with the population issues. I think it is possible to build cities on the ocean for example but more importantly to explore out into the universe. I suspect we have the technology right now to transform our world into a Star Trek type society.


I will regard your YouTube reference and your espousal of cities on the ocean and exploration out "into the universe" as a bit of leg-pulling--how else is one to explain your post? Anyone seriously interested in the issue of upper limits to Earth's population is encouraged to google that topic; there is a wealth of information, studies, etc. I note one exhaustive metadata study of studies which, in its closing paragraphs, suggests a figure of 650 million, not billion, as a long-term sustainable population, given what is being learned about anthropogenic climate change, loss of biodiversity, and the massive input of novel chemicals/molecules into the environment. The more, the merrier? Maybe not.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I think we are working toward societies where people get exactly what they want, all the time. Maybe we should ask, is that a good thing? And what are the alternatives?


Well, kids are taught at school that winning is not important. You get a certificate for simply participating. So one never learns the bitter pill of losing; picking oneself up; getting tough and trying again.

Look what's happening at the universities. Students are given crying rooms; chocolate; exemption from midterm exams and why? Because their candidate didn't win the election. They never learned how to ever "lose".

How are these college grads ever going to survive in the business world where they will have to deal with rejection and possibly getting fired? There are no crying rooms out there in the cold, cruel world.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Well, kids are taught at school that winning is not important. You get a certificate for simply participating. So one never learns the bitter pill of losing; picking oneself up; getting tough and trying again.
> 
> Look what's happening at the universities. Students are given crying rooms; chocolate; exemption from midterm exams and why? Because their candidate didn't win the election. They never learned how to ever "lose".
> 
> How are these college grads ever going to survive in the business world where they will have to deal with rejection and possibly getting fired? There are no crying rooms out there in the cold, cruel world.


Yes, I agree. Participation awards are often handed out like candy.

I've noticed this with piano competitions for young students. Many so-called "piano competitions" for kids aren't actually competitive at all. There are no prizes for first place, second place, and so on. Instead, every student gets some kind of certificate or ribbon or even a trophy. It makes me angry when a student plays badly and then receives a trophy!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Surely this thread is a joke. Classical music prior to Beethoven was a mere delicacy for an aristocracy, freaks of nature who if ever left their vaunted estates would have discovered they live in a world of abject misery where entire continents were enslaved and pillaged in service to maintaining their creature comforts. Classical music not a barometer on the general welfare of man whatsoever.


I don't think that's totally correct. Much of Bach's music, for example, was prepared for his urban congregation, consisting pretty much of all classes of people in the cities where he lived. Other music, more abstract, was composed for publication and consumption by musical enthusiasts in general.

Moving forward, music in the classical period, pre-Beethoven, had a substantial middle-class audience, both for informal home performance and, for symphonic music, concerts. Even music composed for the court of Haydn's "beloved prince" was famous throughout most of Europe and was widely performed for non-aristocratic audiences.

BTW for tdc, re "discovering other planets": For fun, do a bit of googling and find out how many people we would have to export to other planets each day just to keep Earth's population from growing larger. Hint: It's about 187,000 per day!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Yes, I agree. Participation awards are often handed out like candy.
> 
> I've noticed this with piano competitions for young students. Many so-called "piano competitions" for kids aren't actually competitive at all. There are no prizes for first place, second place, and so on. Instead, every student gets some kind of certificate or ribbon or even a trophy. It makes me angry when a student plays badly and then receives a trophy!


Yeah and the obligatory SUV bumper sticker. " My child is an honor roll child!" Who isn't?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> I will regard your YouTube reference and your espousal of cities on the ocean and exploration out "into the universe" as a bit of leg-pulling--how else is one to explain your post? Anyone seriously interested in the issue of upper limits to Earth's population is encouraged to google that topic; there is a wealth of information, studies, etc. I note one exhaustive metadata study of studies which, in its closing paragraphs, suggests a figure of 650 million, not billion, as a long-term sustainable population, given what is being learned about anthropogenic climate change, loss of biodiversity, and the massive input of novel chemicals/molecules into the environment. The more, the merrier? Maybe not.


No, not joking, I choose to believe different things I guess. I'm ok with people thinking I'm a little crazy as long as I can express myself on these issues from time to time. Personally I think a lot of science is created simply to reinforce the status quo, like the whole notion of Darwinism for example and "survival of the fittest". I think one could do similar studies showing how species are able to survive and adapt through cooperation - not just conflict. I'm certain I read about such studies having been done actually but I cannot remember much more about it at the moment...

Think about how scientific studies can affect perceptions on world issues... do you think maybe certain studies get lots of dollars pumped into them and others get suppressed depending on whether the results are found agreeable by certain influential members of society? For example why didn't we learn more about Nikola Tesla in school? Funny I remember learning a lot about Edison, but not Nikola Tesla. I've read his notes and manuscripts mysteriously disappeared after his death too.

The numbers found on that study you mention sound eerily similar to the figures on the Georgia guide stones regarding an ideal earth population.

I'm reminded of the old Thomas Dolby song "She *Blinded me With Science*."


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

tdc, thank you for your reply. I now understand your position with great clarity.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Out of curiosity, I inquire as to your assessment of an upper limit to earth's human population. Let's stipulate that everyone will have access, should they choose, to all material aids and comforts of the average middle-class American. Give us some of your version of real science; I look forward to your instruction.


when I say real science, I mean learn about chemistry, physics, mathematics

that way you have the tools to think for yourself

clearly, you are not asking about science, but rather you want me to comment on public policy.

if you can tell me the significance of Boyle's Law to your car's engine, then I'll rant on public policy,,,,(now no Googling kiddies!:lol


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nate Miller, thank you for your reply. I now understand your position with great clarity.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Well, kids are taught at school that winning is not important. You get a certificate for simply participating. So one never learns the bitter pill of losing; picking oneself up; getting tough and trying again.
> 
> Look what's happening at the universities. Students are given crying rooms; chocolate; exemption from midterm exams and why? Because their candidate didn't win the election. They never learned how to ever "lose".
> 
> How are these college grads ever going to survive in the business world where they will have to deal with rejection and possibly getting fired? There are no crying rooms out there in the cold, cruel world.


Which Universities are these? Certainly not the one from which I recently retired. Our students quickly learned that there are no prizes for turning up. As for chocolate, I cannot recall ever providing that for students, though various Finals groups of mine got into the habit of bringing in a cake to make seminars go well. 
And why should surviving in 'the business world' have to be specified? In my experience, there are just as many inept time-servers in supposedly cut-throat, lean and mean businesses as in any other field of employment. One of the big differences between academia and business (again, only from my own experience) is that it is much more difficult to B***S*** your way to the top in academia. Would-be Trumps get found out very quickly!

What was the OP again? Oh yes, music and the future. Music of lasting quality and interest will continue to be written and appreciated, though the cloud of auditory bubble-gum will expand as far as the spending power of the young will continue to fund it.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Which Universities are these? Certainly not the one from which I recently retired. Our students quickly learned that there are no prizes for turning up. As for chocolate, I cannot recall ever providing that for students, though various Finals groups of mine got into the habit of bringing in a cake to make seminars go well.


I think hpowders was referring to a series of extremely recent developments at many universities in the US. Within the past two weeks or so, ever since Trump got elected, numerous universities have been providing students with "safe spaces" for protests and crying.

Because you are now retired, you probably haven't witnessed most of these recent developments firsthand. As for which universities we are talking about, here's some information about anti-Trump activities at UC Irvine: http://www.insidesources.com/uc-irvine/

And here's an article that mentions a Yale professor who decided to make his midterm optional: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/1...ore-college-campuses-reel-from-trump-win.html


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I think hpowders was referring to a series of extremely recent developments at many universities in the US. Within the past two weeks or so, ever since Trump got elected, numerous universities have been providing students with "safe spaces" for protests and crying.
> 
> Because you are now retired, you probably haven't witnessed most of these recent developments firsthand. As for which universities we are talking about, here's some information about anti-Trump activities at UC Irvine: http://www.insidesources.com/uc-irvine/
> 
> And here's an article that mentions a Yale professor who decided to make his midterm optional: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/1...ore-college-campuses-reel-from-trump-win.html


Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Brandeis, Cornell, Michigan, etc;

Cry ins, safe zones, teddy bears, dolls, skipping midterms due to "distress"?

These are supposed to be "young adults"? We are talking about 18-22 year old people throwing temper tantrums because they can't get their way. This is 5 year old behavior. Scary stuff!

God help the future of the USA.

Brings me to tears....however I'm chopping onions at the present time.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

hpowders said:


> God help the future of the USA.


my concern is that they will be too incompetent to run an old folks home when I'm a geezer


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> my concern is that they will be too incompetent to run an old folks home when I'm a geezer


Don't worry. Trump Care will employ Robo-Vac Roombas to see to your every need....as long as their batteries hold up.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Nate Miller said:


> my concern is that they will be too incompetent to run an old folks home when I'm a geezer


Not to worry. With Trump in charge, old folks homes won't be needed. His rational business-like approach will suggest another fate for unproductive and expensive old people. "Trump brand gourmet body part fillets. SafeT packed for your protection. Not a bone in a boatload!"


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I don't think that's totally correct. Much of Bach's music, for example, was prepared for his urban congregation, consisting pretty much of all classes of people in the cities where he lived. Other music, more abstract, was composed for publication and consumption by musical enthusiasts in general.
> 
> Moving forward, music in the classical period, pre-Beethoven, had a substantial middle-class audience, both for informal home performance and, for symphonic music, concerts. Even music composed for the court of Haydn's "beloved prince" was famous throughout most of Europe and was widely performed for non-aristocratic audiences.
> 
> BTW for tdc, re "discovering other planets": For fun, do a bit of googling and find out how many people we would have to export to other planets each day just to keep Earth's population from growing larger. Hint: It's about 187,000 per day!


Still, the well-heeled aristocratic and sacerdotal classes more or less "owned" musicians and commissioned the works. Beethoven was arguably the first to really be an independent enough artist to speak to the ethos of the common man and at this point music takes a decidedly more depressing tone reflecting the struggle of life alien to the upper classes. These sorts of discussions necessitate speaking in broad strokes of course.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Still, the well-heeled aristocratic and sacerdotal classes more or less "owned" musicians and commissioned the works. Beethoven was arguably the first to really be an independent enough artist to speak to the ethos of the common man and at this point music takes a decidedly more depressing tone reflecting the struggle of life alien to the upper classes. These sorts of discussions necessitate speaking in broad strokes of course.


I wonder about that. For instance, one reason Telemann was so prolific was that he was trying to avoid bankruptcy due to his wife's gambling debts. His works were written "for publication," not on commission, meaning that the publisher was counting on music sales - preferably a lot of them. So it was written in a style popular at the time, meaning that it appealed to a broad range of people. Fortunately for Mr. T, nobody wanted the "old" music of last year!

Anyway, I wonder how that squares with your view.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Couchie said:


> Beethoven was arguably the first to really be an independent enough artist to speak to the ethos of the common man and at this point music takes a decidedly more depressing tone reflecting the struggle of life alien to the upper classes.


Funny thing; I for some reason find romantic music much more uplifting, happy, adventureous, etc. compared to baroque and older music in general, which sounds like a one huge friggin funeral. So depressing, so static, so heavy and melancholic. Just perfect, if you ask me!


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