# Round Two: Hore mit Sinn. Gotterdammerung. Meier and Fassbaender.



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

*WAGNER - 'Götterdämmerung' - Höre mit Sinn was ich dir sage (Waltraud Meier)*




*Götterdämmerung, WWV 86D: Gotterdammerung (Twilight of the Gods) , Act I: Hore mit Sinn


*


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Uhhhhh... I’m seeing Fassbaender and Meier but also Norena singing Handel, Martha Modl, Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, Thomas Hampson... Am I the only one?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Meier was no doubt impressive in the theater, but as a singer she was a bit problematic. Is she a high mezzo or a low soprano? A singer might do both soprano and mezzo roles, as she did, and that isn't a problem if she can do them justice. Waltraute, though, is not a sopranoish-mezzoish part. Meier sounds like a soprano out of her depth; the low notes go for nothing, and she doesn't make up for it with any special interpretive insight.

Fassbaender, though still a high mezzo, makes a better vocal effect down where much of the role lies, and far outdoes Meier interpretively as well. In fact she brings us the drama of this passage as well as anyone I've ever heard, including Christa Ludwig. It'll be interesting to compare them when they are both finalists, which they seem likely to be.

These are both studio recordings, and it's fascinating, sort of, to hear the odd musical expedients - "concert endings" - resorted to in order to end the scene. The effect of the chord at the end of the Meier, unrelated to the music's tonality, is like being awakened from a dream by a bucket of ice water. The Fassbaender winds down more gradually, using Wagner's motifs but wandering harmonically in a way he wouldn't have done and still ending vaguely. Who _writes_ this stuff?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> Uhhhhh... I’m seeing Fassbaender and Meier but also Norena singing Handel, Martha Modl, Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, Thomas Hampson... Am I the only one?


 You are not alone. Maybe Seattle can clean that up, but if not we can ignore it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Uhhhhh... I’m seeing Fassbaender and Meier but also Norena singing Handel, Martha Modl, Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, Thomas Hampson... Am I the only one?


Sorry. When I copied and pasted it did so with a lot of stuff below my screen and looking at the first two it looked ok.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I like Meier a LOT in Isolde when you can see her act ( she is great) and you can see what an attractive woman she was. Her voice is fine but it is not a voice I like in recordings. She never sounds like a mezzo at all to me. I have been very impressed with the acting of Fassbinder, who made a pass at my sister when they sang together. This did not please my sister!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You are not alone. Maybe Seattle can clean that up, but if not we can ignore it.


Thanks for overlooking. I copied and pasted stuff I didn't see on my screen. Ooops.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I like Meier a LOT in Isolde when you can see her act ( she is great) and you can see what an attractive woman she was. Her voice is fine but it is not a voice I like in recordings. She never sounds like a mezzo at all to me. I have been very impressed with the acting of Fassbinder, who made a pass at my sister when they sang together. This did not please my sister!


When someone makes a pass, you can always take a pass.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I like Meier a LOT in Isolde when you can see her act ( she is great) and you can see what an attractive woman she was. Her voice is fine but it is not a voice I like in recordings. She never sounds like a mezzo at all to me. I have been very impressed with the acting of Fassbinder, who made a pass at my sister when they sang together. This did not please my sister!


I completely agree. The only role she sings where the vocal aspect is as mesmerising as the physical was Kundy. I could watch her Isolde all day - but I couldn't listen to it all day. The same with Ortrud. She acted the pants off it but vocally it's little lacking.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> I completely agree. The only role she sings where the vocal aspect is as mesmerising as the physical was Kundy. I could watch her Isolde all day - but I couldn't listen to it all day. The same with Ortrud. She acted the pants off it but vocally it's little lacking.


I wish I could have a Kundry contest but the scene is just too long. In everything else Wagnerian Flagstad was supreme but she wasn't right for Kundry.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wish I could have a Kundry contest but the scene is just too long. In everything else Wagnerian Flagstad was supreme but she wasn't right for Kundry.


"Ich sah das Kind" from act 2 is frequently excerpted, and there must be plenty of them on YT. It's where we discover whether our Kundry of the evening can really sing as well as moan, grunt and scream.

And then there's "Dienen! Dienen!" from act 3...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

As others have pointed out, Meier sounds more like a soprano. Like Ludwig, Fassbaender was an accomplished Lieder singer and it shows here in her intelligent treatment of the text. Indeed I found her performance quite thrilling. The voice also has a tangy individuality that I rather like. An easy win for her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As others have pointed out, Meier sounds more like a soprano. Like Ludwig, Fassbaender was an accomplished Lieder singer and it shows here in her intelligent treatment of the text. Indeed I found her performance quite thrilling. The voice also has a tangy individuality that I rather like. An easy win for her.


The term "tangy individuality" might be applied by some people to my personality  I love the Brahms Liebeslieder Waltzes and I had a copy with her in it and she was splendid.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The term "tangy individuality" might be applied by some people to my personality  I love the Brahms Liebeslieder Waltzes and I had a copy with her in it and she was splendid. She was the film director's daughter.


Wrong. Brigitte Fassb*ae*nder is *not* at all related to the late German film director Rainer Werner Fassb*i*nder. 
Rather, she is the daughter of former actress Sabine Peters and of former baritone Willi Domgraf-Fassbaender.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

And, as I pointed out, you misspelled her last name in the subject heading.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ALT said:


> And, as I pointed out, you misspelled her last name in the subject heading.


I am persistently a bad speller of foreign names and aria titles. I changed it but I am not allowed to change the spelling in the poll but people will get the idea. Back of the class for me again. I took out the erroneous parentage. I don't know how I got that idea. Thanks for correcting my mistake.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wish I could have a Kundry contest but the scene is just too long. In everything else Wagnerian Flagstad was supreme but she wasn't right for Kundry.


Do you think so? There's a live Met Parsifal and Flagstad is fantastic. Not only vocally but dramatically. The way she sings Parsifal's name in Act 2 is how you've probably dreamed of hearing it. Jessye Norman is fabulous in that short passage as well. Unfortunately, not so great in the rest of the role.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> Do you think so? There's a live Met Parsifal and Flagstad is fantastic. Not only vocally but dramatically. The way she sings Parsifal's name in Act 2 is how you've probably dreamed of hearing it. Jessye Norman is fabulous in that short passage as well. Unfortunately, not so great in the rest of the role.


You could be right. I have not heard that . I think you need to use chest to fully express Kundry and in the version I heard Flagstad did not. You also need to be a little wild and I have a hard time seeing Flagstad pull that off BUT I have not heard the version you speak of but just the studio version. I will try to check it out. Norman was fine in the studio version but when I heard her live in the role after her dramatic weight loss the top was not strong enough to be effective anymore.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

damianjb1 said:


> Do you think so? There's a live Met Parsifal and Flagstad is fantastic. Not only vocally but dramatically. The way she sings Parsifal's name in Act 2 is how you've probably dreamed of hearing it. Jessye Norman is fabulous in that short passage as well. Unfortunately, not so great in the rest of the role.


I've heard Flagstad's live Kundry and was surprised at how dramatically effective it was. Flagstad's live recordings are really necessary to a full appreciation of her. I do think the ideal Kundry needs a little more madness in her than came naturally to the placid Norwegian who sat knitting backstage between the acts, and I agree with Seattle about the value of a strong chest voice, but Kundry must also seduce Parsifal with a warm beauty of tone and sinuous legato that not all singers can supply. Sopranos such as Gwyneth Jones and Dunja Vejzovic (sp?) have vocal problems that mar the recordings in which they participate, and I may be one of a minority who feel the same about Martha Modl. Not enough sheer beauty from any of them. My favorites on record remain mezzos Christa Ludwig and Irene Dalis (a first-class, underrecorded singer), who capture both of Kundry's personas and sing superbly the whole time.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I've heard Flagstad's live Kundry and was surprised at how dramatically effective it was. Flagstad's live recordings are really necessary to a full appreciation of her. I do think the ideal Kundry needs a little more madness in her than came naturally to the placid Norwegian who sat knitting backstage between the acts, and I agree with Seattle about the value of a strong chest voice, but Kundry must also seduce Parsifal with a warm beauty of tone and sinuous legato that not all singers can supply. Sopranos such as Gwyneth Jones and Dunja Vejzovic (sp?) have vocal problems that mar the recordings in which they participate, and I may be one of a minority who feel the same about Martha Modl. Not enough sheer beauty from any of them. My favorites on record remain mezzos Christa Ludwig and Irene Dalis (a first-class, underrecorded singer), who capture both of Kundry's personas and sing superbly the whole time.


How do you feel about the studio Tristan with Furtwangler and her, sir?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> How do you feel about the studio Tristan with Furtwangler and her, sir?


Even in 1952 Flagstad's Isolde is indispensable, a mature, beautiful portrayal and often vocally awesome, but not equal to the fresher, more energetic Isoldes from her prime years. The top shows some effort, but when that isn't present the rest of the voice is magnificent, and there are passages in which she surpasses all other singers, with a deep inwardness and impeccable legato. If only she had recorded it five years earler, and with Melchior, who was still in superb voice! I find Suthaus dramatically strong and vocally solid but but unexciting. The rest of the cast is fine, but Furtwangler is sublime. His second act, deep and unhurried, is a timeless, cosmic dream, with Wagner's nature painting - the distant horns, the murmuring brook, the flickering fireflies and the scent of roses - surpassing every other interpretation I've heard.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Even in 1952 Flagstad's Isolde is indispensable, a mature, beautiful portrayal and often vocally awesome, but not equal to the fresher, more energetic Isoldes from her prime years. The top shows some effort, but when that isn't present the rest of the voice is magnificent, and there are passages in which she surpasses all other singers, with a deep inwardness and impeccable legato. If only she had recorded it five years earler, and with Melchior, who was still in superb voice! I find Suthaus dramatically strong and vocally solid but but unexciting. The rest of the cast is fine, but Furtwangler is sublime. His second act, deep and unhurried, is a timeless, cosmic dream, with Wagner's nature painting - the distant horns, the murmuring brook, the flickering fireflies and the scent of roses - surpassing every other interpretation I've heard.


I got a great vinyl version and it is so incredibly beautiful! Thanks for your beautiful take on it. Her curse is still jaw dropping in power! BTW why can't jawdropping be one word like it would be in German??? Such a complicated language but they can string together 4 words and it works!


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I've heard Flagstad's live Kundry and was surprised at how dramatically effective it was. Flagstad's live recordings are really necessary to a full appreciation of her. I do think the ideal Kundry needs a little more madness in her than came naturally to the placid Norwegian who sat knitting backstage between the acts, and I agree with Seattle about the value of a strong chest voice, but Kundry must also seduce Parsifal with a warm beauty of tone and sinuous legato that not all singers can supply. Sopranos such as Gwyneth Jones and Dunja Vejzovic (sp?) have vocal problems that mar the recordings in which they participate, and I may be one of a minority who feel the same about Martha Modl. Not enough sheer beauty from any of them. My favorites on record remain mezzos Christa Ludwig and Irene Dalis (a first-class, underrecorded singer), who capture both of Kundry's personas and sing superbly the whole time.


Ludwig is probably my overall favourite Kundry on record. I haven't heard Gwyneth Jones as her singing doesn't give me any pleasure. It's an opera that has been very lucky with recording. I'm very fond of the Karajan recording. Not particularly for Vejzovic but I love how dramatic the recording is as a whole. In particular the big choral scenes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

damianjb1 said:


> Ludwig is probably my overall favourite Kundry on record. I haven't heard Gwyneth Jones as her singing doesn't give me any pleasure. It's an opera that has been very lucky with recording. I'm very fond of the Karajan recording. Not particularly for Vejzovic but I love how dramatic the recording is as a whole. In particular the big choral scenes.


The sheer number of recorded_ Parsifal_s blows my mind, considering that when I first heard the opera there was only one, the 1951 Knappertsbusch from Bayreuth, with the 1962 Bayreuth recording about to be issued. Then came Solti and Karajan in the '60s and Boulez around 1970. Others followed slowly at first, but in recent years there's been a flood of live performances from Bayreuth and elsewhere. Now there's one, or several, for every taste. Amazing for such an "esoteric" work.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't think we need a second round as I think Ludwig will sweep this one away. Thanks for participating so much on this contest everybody.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't think we need a second round as I think Ludwig will sweep this one away. Thanks for participating so much on this contest everybody.


I was looking forward to hearing Ludwig and Fassbaender side by side. They're both superb performances.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I was looking forward to hearing Ludwig and Fassbaender side by side. They're both superb performances.


Done. That is why I mentioned it so people could request it. Thanks. Glad you liked both rounds.


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