# Haydn



## Christi

What did he write ? A string trio ?


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## SPR

I love Haydn. Supposedly called 'papa haydn' in his day,

from : http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/haydnj_works.html

Joseph Haydn composed over 750 works and arranged over 330 songs. Between 1934 and 1971 Anthony von Hoboken compiled a directory of Haydn's works according to musical forms. His results were published by the company Schott under the title "Joseph Haydn - Thematisch-bibliographisches Werkverzeichnis" (Eng. "J. Haydn - Thematic-bibliographic Listing of his Works"). Hoboken assigned a number to each work, and this idea was so helpful, that most of Haydn's works are now known not only through their title but also through their Hoboken (H) number. 
In the event that you want more detailed information about Haydn's works, please consult a copy of Hoboken's work in a local library. Even though it is in German it is not too difficult to understand. Obviously we cannot offer all of the information contained in its 3 volumes.

In order to prevent this page from becoming too long, it has been split into parts according to musical forms and their related Hoboken numbers.
For example, Symphony 104 is assigned H (Hoboken) I (Work category) 104 (Work number).

Symphonies H I 1-108 
Overtures H Ia 1-16 
Divertimenti in 4 and more Parts H II 1-47 
String Quartets H III 1-83b 
Divertimenti in 3 Parts H IV 1-11 
String Trios H V 1-21 
Various Duos H VI 1-6 
Concerti for Various Instruments H VII 
Marches H VIII 1-7 
Dances H IX 1-29 
Various Works for Baryton H X 1-12 
Trios for Baryton, Violin or Viola, Cello 1-126 
Duos with Baryton H XII 1-25 
Divertimenti with Piano H XIV 1-13 
Trios with Piano, Violin or Flute, Cello H XV 1-40 
Piano Duos H XVa 
Piano Sonatas H XVI 1-52 
Piano Pieces H XVII 1-12 
Piano 4 Hands H XVIIa 1-2 
Piano Concerti H XVIII 1-11 
Pieces for Mechanical Clock (Flötenuhr) H XIX 1-32 
Instrumental Works about The Seven Last Words H XX 
Choral Version of The Seven Last Words H XX/2 
Oratorios H XXI 1-3 
Masses H XXII 1-14 
Other Sacred Works H XXIII 
Cantatas and Arias with Orchestra H XXIV 
2, 3, and 4 Part Songs H XXV 
Songs and Cantatas with Piano H XXVI 
Canons H XXVII Sacred 1-10 Secular 1-47 
Operas H XXVIII 1-13 
Marionette Operas H XXIX 
Incidental Music H XXX 
Arrangements of (273) Scottish and (60) Welsh Folksongs H XXXI


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## Christi

[QUOTEString Trios H V 1-21 [/QUOTE] Have you heard them ?


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## SPR

I have not. I will soon though. I think I'll be getting a full Haydn set very shortly.  That should fill in those annoying little gaps.


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## Christi

SPR said:


> I have not.**** I will soon though.* I think I'll be getting a full Haydn set very shortly.* * That should fill in those annoying little gaps.


Are they good ???????


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## BuddhaBandit

SPR said:


> I think I'll be getting a full Haydn set very shortly.


I've heard some of the discs in that (I assume you're referring to the Brilliant Classics set) and they're pretty good. I have both the Bach and Mozart editions, which are stellar, but both are weaker on the vocal works than the orchestral/chamber/solo instrument works.

If you do buy it, make sure to tell us (the TC members) about it!


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## SPR

yes indeed. I have the Mozart set.... so between you and I - we will have 'all 4' perhaps we can form an opinion!


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## Sid James

I recently started to rediscover some of Haydn's _London symphonies_. I think my favourite has to be No. 101 _'The Clock_.' Haydn was a master of big contrasts, for example that symphony opens up with a slow, dark theme, but then Haydn makes a 180 degree turn around and floods the movement with light and wit. I think he is an underrated genius, so much so that Beethoven would not have become as great as he was, without Haydn's influence.

It was also the 200th anniversary of Haydn's death recently, on 31st May. Well, despite the passing of all that time, the works of 'the father of the symphony' and 'the father of the string quartet' remain as fresh as ever...


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## starry

Andre said:


> I think he is an underrated genius


Others also think that of course. But it's for the very reason you give, people say he is the 'father of' whatever meaning they think he is just a precursor to others rather than good in himself. I was also thinking of bumping up this thread as it obviously hasn't had much interest.

The last three London symphonies are often seen as the pinnacle, but others such as 97 (which I bet Beethoven liked) are definitely underrated, as well as some much earlier ones.


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## bdelykleon

Haydn is my favorite composer. His music is so exciting with their surprises, all that wit and verve,, it's hard to me to express what I like in his music, pretty much everything I would say. And I don't think he is underrated, he is considered one of the greatest composers by pretty much anyone who studies music seriously, the problem is that he is not popular, mostly because audiences these days are at odds to grasp Haydn's brilliant music invention, what makes sucess are a large orchestra playing overblown late-romantic pieces, and they will never find this Haydn, he can be as dramatic as Mahler, but in a more suble way.

OBs: this complete edition is not very much complete, lacks some masses, some operas.

Obs1: I will make a succint Haydn must have:

















































This is what I think a basic discography of Haydn is, from there you can explore other works or other interpretations, but I chose not a historic or traditional approach but the best renditions of each work. It's well more expensive than the brilliant set, but it is worth the price.


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## jhar26

bdelykleon said:


>


I have these too. All wonderful.


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## starry

bdelykleon said:


> And I don't think he is underrated, he is considered one of the greatest composers by pretty much anyone who studies music seriously, the problem is that he is not popular


But how can someone be considered great but also not be popular? It's like saying that people will list him as a great composer because they feel they have to (as they have been told he is the father of whatever) not because they like him. The only real understanding and sincere rating of a composer is imo on actually liking enough of the work and therefore considering someone great. Surely someone must be considered great on an understanding of the work not just on theories of influence or some history of music.


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## bdelykleon

starry said:


> But how can someone be considered great but also not be popular? It's like saying that people will list him as a great composer because they feel they have to (as they have been told he is the father of whatever) not because they like him. The only real understanding and sincere rating of a composer is imo on actually liking enough of the work and therefore considering someone great. Surely someone must be considered great on an understanding of the work not just on theories of influence or some history of music.


Simply: Haydn, like Brahms was not long ago, became a musician's musician.


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## jhar26

I think he's popular. Not mega-popular perhaps, but I imagine that most classical music lovers have some Haydn recordings in their collection.


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## starry

bdelykleon said:


> Simply: Haydn, like Brahms was not long ago, became a musician's musician.


You're saying that Haydn is far away from our time (in attitude/style or whatever) and therefore harder to understand for people now?


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## bdelykleon

starry said:


> You're saying that Haydn is far away from our time (in attitude/style or whatever) and therefore harder to understand for people now?


Yes ,this is what I was trying to say in my poor English.


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## Efraim

Andre said:


> ...No. 101 _'The Clock_.' Haydn was a master of big contrasts


Absolutely true.


Andre said:


> ... for example that symphony opens up with a slow, dark theme, but then Haydn makes a 180 degree turn around and floods the movement with light and wit.


All but one (the less buoyant C Minor) of the London symphonies open with a momentous and abstruse short introduction, which seems to have nothing to do with what follows. This kind of introduction appeared earlier: seven of the preceding 11 symphonies have such a slow introduction, as well as a few earlier. No symphony in a minor key is introduced this way. I have the weird idea that Haydn felt the coming of a masochistic century fond of Weltschmerz, universal suffering, identifying profundity with darkness, and wanted to show to this romantic posterity that he also would be able to write deadly serious Bruckner-like symphonies if he wanted, but he simply didn't want because he had a fundamentally joyful character…

He didn't manage to achieve that, since he was not taken seriously by the whole 19th century, and even not enough by the 20th. This situation changed very slowly. Robbins Landon, who did more than anybody else to make Haydn famous again (discovering lost works, publishing records), could still write as late as in the 90s that Haydn remained a composer for connoisseurs. In our days it is not so any more.


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## Efraim

starry said:


> ... people say he is the 'father of' whatever meaning they think he is just a precursor to others rather than good in himself.


Exactly so. People write: This or that sonata/quartet etc. is Beethoven-like. This is absurd: logically, it must be said that Beethoven is Haydn-like.



starry said:


> The last three London symphonies are often seen as the pinnacle,


not only the last three but all twelve


starry said:


> but others such as 97 (which I bet Beethoven liked) are definitely underrated, as well as some much earlier ones.


Earlier the situation was worse.

I have a bent for _overrating_ Haydn. He is my favorite composer, exactly like Bdelykleon's. But it was not always so. As I wrote in another thread, I went completely mad about Haydn - so that I have hardly listened to anything else for some six or more years - but earlier this was impossible for scarcity of recordings and for an almost complete lack of good performances. As for concerts, I never saw a single work of Haydn on concert and radio programs for decades. '"_Papa Haydn" has become one of the worst clichés in classical music. It degrades one of history's most innovative composers into a lovable but minor figure. Among his symphonies … conductors prefer to programme one of the "London" set… [only]_', wrote András Schiff 12 years ago, in the booklet of his box of 9 sonatas - which he chose exactly like the conductors he criticizes… Seven of them are among the very last ones and two others figure on nearly every other record of Haydn because of their minor key… I suspect he simply didn't bother about looking into the earlier sonatas. I think the greatest are all but G Minor from No 20 - if not from No 17 - to 47 or 48 plus No 53 (new numbering, not Hoboken's) but even some of the earliest and simplest have a surprisingly lyrical and fascinating slow movement, eg Nos 11 and 13, thirty or forty years before Beethoven's Pathetic Sonata. Similarly I feel the London Symphonies are the summit mainly in some technical sense, ie as examples of an astonishing easiness in invention and virtuosity of composition. Apart of that there is here a way of thinking in stereotypes: the latest is automatically thought to be the most evolved, no need to look after… Those 12 are of course great but less exciting than a lot of earlier, less monumental, less ambitious, less elaborated, but more original, symphonies. Listen for example to the 2d movement of Nos 54 and 64. Even Brahms has no such breathtaking, subtle and sustained slow movements. That of No 76 is nothing less than baffling: in the middle of a movement that flows for long minutes in a completely insignificant and banal mood you are suddenly hit on the head by a middle section (called 'trio section') more bloodcurdling than any of Schubert's, then you are led back to the initial insignificance, then comes a _second (!) _middle section - a completely new one, having nothing to do with the first and even more ghastly -, to end up with the innocent and careless doodling… What does all that mean? Is this the famous classical equipoised calmness?


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## StlukesguildOhio

I do think that outside of those with a truly abiding passion for classical music, Haydn is somewhat underrated... or simply forgotten. His obvious liability was the fact that he seems, by many, to have been dwarfed by Mozart... perhaps not unlike Handel in relation to Bach. On the other hand... he is an incredibly innovative and fabulous composer. Being deeply passionate about vocal music I have been more than enamored of his music for some time... if only for the magnificent _Creation_. Of course there are numerous other marvelous vocal compositions (_Lord Nelson Mass, Mass for St. Cecilia_, etc...) and his operas are being somewhat rediscovered. I would not be surprised if there were some marvelous work to be found there... equaling the operatic work of Salieri and even Gluck if not Mozart. But then there are the lovely piano sonatas, the endless symphonies which often reveal the most fascinating elements... and the string quartets!!! Such a wealth of marvelous music there... and I say this as someone not overly enthralled with chamber music.


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## Artemis

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I do think that outside of those with a truly abiding passion for classical music, Haydn is somewhat underrated... or simply forgotten.


Haydn somewhat underrated? In most lists of "greatest" or "favourite" composers that I have seen on various classical music Boards, Haydn is usually placed well inside the top 10, albeit with Mozart always in the top 3. For example, the last time I looked at the recent T-C poll on favourite composers, Haydn appeared to be generally well regarded and inside the top 10.

Thus, I wouldn't agree that Haydn is any way underrated, as the top 10 is obviously a highly contested arena in which only the very best composers exist. To merit the dubious honour of being properly described as an "underrated composer", I would have thought that a much lower ranking would have been a pre-requisite for such consideration.

I should say that I don't like the concept of "underrated" and never use it myself except on occasions like this when commenting upon others' use of it. To me it seems to be a meaningless concept when applied to greatest composers, as it assumes both the existence of some kind of widely agreed definitive list of composers by ranks exists (which is not true) and the concomitant existence of an overrated composer(s).

Incidentally, I wonder whether "Christi", who originated this thread, has been keeping tabs on developments here. The last time I spotted Christi in action was in a delightful offer to befriend the much beleagured Robert Newman who was facing almost excruciatingly painful difficulties on another Board several weeks ago. Its exquisite timeliness, poignancy and simplicity made it one of the funniest contributions I have ever seen on any Board.


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## Efraim

Artemis said:


> I wouldn't agree that Haydn is any way underrated.


Once he was, and until not very long ago. Berlioz walked out of the concert hall when they started to play Haydn, Schumann didn't walk out but wrote condescendingly about his music. His quartets used to be played by amateurs, but the scores of his symphonies were unavailable, some of them completely forgotten. He started to be appreciated, indeed discovered again in the 40s, but it was a very slow process. I don't remember a single concert program in the 60s, 70s and 80s with a single work of Haydn, except for the Farewell symphony played by the pupils' orchestra of my High School.


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## jurianbai

*Haydn's Violin Concerto*

I'm not familiar with Haydn Violin Concertos. Can talk about it? I like to listen to it now before it's too late (as I am on 20th century repertoire now). In wikipedia it says Haydn got 4 concertos for violin.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> I'm not familiar with Haydn Violin Concertos. Can talk about it? I like to listen to it now before it's too late (as I am on 20th century repertoire now). In wikipedia it says Haydn got 4 concertos for violin.


I'm curious what do you mean by before it is too late for Haydn's violin concertos? Just give them a listen. Haydn's orchestral/instrumental passion was not the concerto, for he was much more interested in the symphony, string quartet (your favourite) and the piano trio.


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## jurianbai

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I'm curious what do you mean by before it is too late for Haydn's violin concertos? Just give them a listen. Haydn's orchestral/instrumental passion was not the concerto, for he was much more interested in the symphony, string quartet (your favourite) and the piano trio.


Well, since I rarely heard people talking Haydn's VC I thought it might be a works that not stand out (as you mentioned). I mean I like to listen to it FIRST before moving too modern (into the kind of Sibelius etc). A strange way yes.

I like to listen to the "missing link" between Bach to Mozart Violin + Orchestra works, somehow Haydn looks in between these two names. According to wiki there are 4. What special about them?

and this video, in C, note the present of Harpsichord there.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> Well, since I rarely heard people talking Haydn's VC I thought it might be a works that not stand out (as you mentioned). I mean I like to listen to it FIRST before moving too modern (into the kind of Sibelius etc). A strange way yes.
> 
> I like to listen to the "missing link" between Bach to Mozart Violin + Orchestra works, somehow Haydn looks in between these two names. According to wiki there are 4. What special about them?
> 
> and this video, in C, note the present of Harpsichord there.


I guess that's becasue when people talk about Haydn, they simply go straight to his symphonies, string quartets, large scale vocal works etc.

I have the 1st, 3rd and 4th concerto on recording (The English Concert/Trevor Pinnock, Simon Standage violin, on period isntruments). Concerto no.2 appears to have disappeared with time. They are fine works, which I enjoy, though one should not necessarily listen to them from the point of view of a Romantic violin concerto. Like his symphonies before Paris, they were composed for his employer's entertainment behind closed private doors.


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## Rasa

Haha, those conducting movements during his continuo playing...


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## Weston

jurianbai said:


> I like to listen to the "missing link" between Bach to Mozart Violin + Orchestra works, somehow Haydn looks in between these two names. According to wiki there are 4. What special about them?
> 
> and this video, in C, note the present of Harpsichord there.


I have some of Haydn's Cello concertos in my collection and find them similar in feeling to this piece. I wonder if seeing it as a missing link between Bach and Mozart is only because of the harpsichord used as continuo. In form, the cello concertos are far closer to middle classical era to my ears, in spite of the use of continuo. I suppose it depends on when they were composed in Haydn's long productive career.

I enjoyed the link. Thank you.


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## Handel

He is my favorite composer, with Handel. I will provide some CDs and maybe samples in time.... can't write much longer.


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## nefigah

Handel said:


> He is my favorite composer, with Handel. I will provide some CDs and maybe samples in time.... can't write much longer.


Whoa, you're back


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## Handel

Yup  

I got the warning most of discussions are about contemporary music. So I intend to open a new Theatre of operation


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Handel said:


> Yup
> 
> I got the warning most of discussions are about contemporary music. So I intend to open a new Theatre of operation


Hi there! It seems we have used portraits of Handel as our Avatars.

I am a big admirer of Handel's music. And Haydn's too.

Good to see.


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## Il Seraglio

Every time I revisit Haydn, I find myself continually amazed by the depth of his music. His minor key symphonies in particular are sheer genius.


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## Sid James

I've just acquired two of Haydn's string quartets on the one (Naxos) disc, played by the Kodaly Quartet. It's been years since I've listened to any of his string quartets.

The _*String Quartet Op. 51 'The Seven Last Words of Jesus Christ'*_ was originally a work for chamber orchestra, later arranged for string quartet. It was commissioned by a religious order in Cadiz, Spain, as music to accompany the liturgy where Christ's seven last sentences on the cross were announced. There is an introduction, seven movements (one each based on a sentence spoken by Christ), and a finale. All of the movements, except the finale, are slow. The quick and fast finale represents the time when Christ died, and the veil of the temple was torn.

I've only listened to a C20th work on this theme, Sofia Gubaidulina's _Seven Words _(a work for Russian button accordion and strings). It's a bit silly to compare the two, but one inevitably does. The Haydn is far lighter, and perhaps more meditative (music for contemplation), whereas Gubaidulina is far darker, and kind of dramatically highlights the action of the "story." Recently, I listened to a friend's cd which had Ravel's _Sonata for violin & cello_, which had this dissonant edge, and lead me to somewhat change my stereotype of the composer as just "Impressionist" or later "jazzy" or whatever. Haydn's Op. 51 kind of leads me to a similar conclusion. It is music that is quite far and removed from his witty & humorous creations in the genre, it is something far more profound.

The other work on the disc is the short _*String Quartet Op. 103*_, the last one that Haydn wrote. It was not finished (it's in two movements), even though he had about 6 years to live, and was actually published during his lifetime. Here we are back in "classic" Haydn territory, there's an element of wit and verve, as one of the above posters has observed.

I really enjoy this disc, will be getting into it more in the next few weeks, and recommend it to anyone interested in music that's more meditative and for reflection, rather than his works that have more varied contrasts. It's pretty enjoyable, but on another level to what you might usually expect from Haydn...


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## Earthling

I've been eyeing this album lately and I'm planning to get this sometime soon:










Just listen to the samples! *drool*


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## Argus

Earthling said:


> I've been eyeing this album lately and I'm planning to get this sometime soon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just listen to the samples! *drool*


Why is there a dog on a stool in that painting?


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## Guest

Argus said:


> Why is there a dog on a stool in that painting?


Maybe there is a bonus hidden track from a quintet?

In all seriousness, though, Haydn has truly been impressing me as of late. After a long spell of exploring Renaissance choral works, I find lately that I have been quite intrigued by Haydn. His Creation and Seasons oratorios are wonderful - I've been listening to them quite heavily. And I have also been exploring some of his early symphonies. I expect that next I'll have to delve into his string quartets.


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## Edward Elgar

The introduction to Haydn's Creation is almost atonal! Way ahead of its time.

A piece for string quartet and dog. Mmm. Interesting. I can think of a few composers who would consider!


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## David58117

Just wanted to point out that the Haydn edition mentioned earlier is not intended to be a complete works issue, like the other brilliant classics sets.


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## Vaneyes

Haydn's SQs are well represented. I have the dog on the stool (pre-Nipper), plus various Opp. with Mosaiques, Lindsay, Endellion, Coull, and Tokyo. I could reach for half a dozen other groups and not be too disappointed...but I won't.


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## Earthling

Argus said:


> Why is there a dog on a stool in that painting?


Oh, I forgot to mention, the disc also includes a string quartet transcription of Satie's "Flabby preludes for a Dog" (Préludes flasques pour un chien)!


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## Elgarian

This was the only thread devoted to Haydn that I could find after a few minutes of searching, so I thought I'd use it. (I wonder where Christi is now?...)

I've never made any headway with Haydn's music until recently, but I'm now making real progress, so I thought an interim report might be worth making. It all started when I bought the Naxos box of Haydn Masses, which shocked me with their expressions of joy and delight - far more light-hearted than I expected - and so I thought I'd tackle the symphonies. I started here:

















These are of course acclaimed performances, but they resurrected what for me is an old problem in their use of a big modern orchestra with its lush, romantic sound. That always used to create a barrier between me and Mozart - and me and Beethoven - and really, I should have expected that. At any rate, no sparks were ignited for me, so I decided to try some HIP period instrument recordings instead:

















The impact was immediate - like a window opening in a dark and stuffy room. Listening to his symphonies played with this kind of verve and lightness is like eating chocolates - each one a delight in its unique way, and encouraging 'just one more'. I'm particularly amazed by the Pinnock recordings. I was always disappointed with his Mozart symphonies, which seem too tame and polite; but these Haydn performances are bursting with thrills and spills, while remaining delicate and sure in touch. The Kuijken Paris symphonies are lovely too - and that reminds me to mention how much extra-musical influences can affect the way I enjoy these things. I've found myself listening to no. 85 ('La Reine') in the first instance purely because legend tells that it was the favourite of Marie Antoinette, asking myself 'why would this be special for her?' I've read that it may have something to do with the variations on a folk tune that occur in the second movement - but anyway, what I found was that this slight historical flavour added something to the appeal of the symphony - to the extent that it's already become a favourite of mine.

Something is going on here that's very similar to what happened when I first heard Immerseel's HIP Beethoven symphonies - hearing them as if it were for the very first time, blowing the lid off everything I thought about Beethoven. It happened again, with Mozart, when I heard Viviana Sofronitzki play his piano concertos on fortepiano accompanied by period orchestra. It's happening now, again, with Haydn. Time and again some new delight flashes out with brilliance. Who could resist smiling when the 3rd movement of the 38th symphony begins, with Pinnock and his chums strutting their stuff as if they had big grins on their faces?

What's so surprising is that in these period performances the symphonies sound as fresh as if they were made yesterday. It's the big _modern_ orchestra productions that sound dated, to my ears. Perhaps that's because it's what I heard (and was discouraged by) when I was but a lad in the 60s. But make no mistake: in these period performances, Haydn rocks, people.

I've just ordered some of Roy Goodman's recordings of the symphonies, now re-released by Hyperion, and currently on offer for under £5 each at PrestoClassical, see here.


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## starry

Same for me last year, hear period instruments in the earlier symphonies and they suddenly sound much better. People really underrated earlier Haydn (and earlier Mozart really). From the Paris set - as I said elsewhere - no.84 I think is underrated, no nickname so no story but so what?


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## Elgarian

starry said:


> Same for me last year, hear period instruments in the earlier symphonies and they suddenly sound much better.


We ought to make it clear that it's not the period instruments alone, of course, that generate the magic. Immerseel's HIP Mozart piano concertos don't do it for me, for instance. Or at least, they're beautifully played, but the overall effect is just too _polite_. But all else being equal, the HIP performances seem to have the effect (among other things) of removing a thick foggy blanket between me and the music. Some of this of course must be due to the smaller forces that Pinnock uses, as well as the instruments themselves, and the period practice; it's a fairly complex equation we're considering, I guess.


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## starry

Well normally if they use period instruments they use period practice too I suppose. The important thing is not to smooth over Haydn's quirkiness. He wasn't simpy the respected old man who did grand old symphonies, he did youthful enterprising works. That's probably the best approach to this whole musical period, full of enlightenment optimism, vigour and discovery.


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## myaskovsky2002

*I prefer*

I prefer Pinocchio...

Martin

:lol:


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## Elgarian

starry said:


> That's probably the best approach to this whole musical period, full of enlightenment optimism, vigour and discovery.


That's a lovely and apt description of the kind of response the music invites. And the need to 'not smooth over' - yes again.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I have those two sets praised by member Elgarian, which I agree with. I have been lucky I guess, in that my experience with Haydn's symphonies in my CD collection are HIP - various recordings by Hogwood (an incomplete project up to the first 75 symphonies, with a few London symphonies), the Pinnock _Sturm und Drang_ set, and various other collections, such as Roger Norrington's). I have all, except two of his symphonies (#79 and #81 appear unrecorded by HIP artists yet).

The other very fine set, currently in progress, is that by Thomas Fey (Hanssler label). His band plays on modern strings and modern wind instruments, but uses period trumpet, horn and timpani when needed; but more importantly, the style of playing is HIP as is the orchestral pitch.

There is nothing egotistical about Haydn's symphonies. He takes you and gives you a tour of his Classical world of the Enlightenment. He doesn't share with you his private emotions but he tells you a lot about his world.


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## starry

I've liked Hogwood in them for a while, but I think he might be superceeded in *some* of them now by others like Pinnock, Bruggen, Harnoncourt and maybe Fey.

How much a symphony is either a private expression or a more public show is an interesting subject, but one we can only guess over in most instances. Chamber music is a more intimate field of expression often, orchestral works can sometimes be written as a more public statement. I suppose all music is intended as a public statement though, assuming it is meant to be heard by an audience.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

True about the symphony, although historical context must be considered without overtly generalising. In Haydn's case, the vast bulk of his symphonies before the Paris and London symphonies were performed behind private close doors for his employer, where the audience size was easily outnumbered by the number of performers. He would not have necessarily indugled himself with expression without fully aware of Esterhazy's taste and requirements.

Paris and London, different story.


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## Elgarian

Is anyone familiar with the Roy Goodman recordings with the Hanover Band on Helios (Hyperion) that I've ordered in PrestoClassical's sale, and whose arrival I'm presently awaiting? I may be mistaken, but they seem to have been out of circulation for a while. He recorded not _quite_ a complete cycle, but they're certainly HIP.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Elgarian said:


> Is anyone familiar with the Roy Goodman recordings with the Hanover Band on Helios (Hyperion) that I've ordered in PrestoClassical's sale, and whose arrival I'm presently awaiting? I may be mistaken, but they seem to have been out of circulation for a while. He recorded not _quite_ a complete cycle, but they're certainly HIP.


I have a few of them. Consistency in interpretation. On the budget Helios label, why the hell not?! Did you buy all of them or a few?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I'm thinking of getting at some stage the London symphonies performed by Les Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble, Marc Minkowski, on the Naive label, released recently.


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## Elgarian

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I have a few of them. Consistency in interpretation. On the budget Helios label, why the hell not?! Did you buy all of them or a few?


I've started with a substantial batch of 6 CDs covering symphonies 1 to 25 (which I don't have in any versions at all). If I like those (as I expect to), I'll probably get more while the Presto sale is on - it ends late in March. At under £5 per disc, the saving on the already low Helios price is worth taking advantage of, and if you buy several at a time, the postage cost per disc diminishes significantly.

Nice point you made earlier about most of these symphonies being written with private performance in mind: with these smaller HIP bands, that intimacy seems to come through very well, feeling entirely _appropriate_ - much as it does (in its own way) with Handel's early Italian cantatas. Almost perfectly honed to the 'private' way we listen to recordings, in fact.


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## Elgarian

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I'm thinking of getting at some stage the London symphonies performed by Les Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble, Marc Minkowski, on the Naive label, released recently.


I may join you in that enterprise, eventually. At present the only London symphonies I have are the ones in the Colin Davis set, and I can see I'm going to need a HIP set of them.


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## jhar26

I'm a big Haydn fan myself. Faves include the string quartets as recorded by the Quatuor Mosaiques on authentic instruments. Sometimes authentic instruments can sound a bit cratchy - especially when used in this format, but this isn't the case here. These discs are outstanding in every way. Quatuor Mosaiques do an equally great job on the mature Mozart Quartets.

The old Karajan recording of The Creation. One wouldn't expect Karajan to do great in music from this period perhaps, but it's a classic deserving of it's status. I also like The Seasons from Rene Jacobs.

From the symphonies I love the Pinnock set for the "sturm und Drang" symphonies. Harnoncourt was for me a disaster in the few Mozart symphonies I've heard from him, but his set of the Paris symphonies is impressive (and he plays all the repeats!). Davis is usually referred to as the first recommendation for the London Symphonies, but Franz Bruggen and the orchestra of the 18th century is a great alternative for those who insist on authentic instruments. A 10/10 is what Hogwood gets from me for his cd of recordings of Nos.94 & 96. The much acclaimed complete set of symphonies from Antal Dorati does nothing for me. It was probably good for it's time, but to me it sounds far too heavy and devoid of charm.

The complete set of piano sonatas (14 cd's) from little known pianist Christine Schornsheim is worth buying if you can find it. It was very cheap when I bought it a few years ago. All sonatas are played on authentic instruments - harpsichord, clavichord and piano forte. And for the Piano Trios I love the set (9 cd's) from the Beaux Arts Trio - modern instruments of course, but very good.


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> Faves include the string quartets as recorded by the Quatuor Mosaiques on authentic instruments. Sometimes authentic instruments can sound a bit cratchy - especially when used in this format, but this isn't the case here. These discs are outstanding in every way.
> ...
> The complete set of piano sonatas (14 cd's) from little known pianist Christine Schornsheim is worth buying if you can find it. It was very cheap when I bought it a few years ago. All sonatas are played on authentic instruments - harpsichord, clavichord and piano forte.


Aha! I was hoping you'd join in this chat, Gaston. I'm pleased to say that (it may have been on your advice, actually) I already have the Quatuor Mosaiques quartets, and the Schornsheim sonatas, but I think I wasn't ready for them at the time I bought them, and they didn't quite take off for me. But I think now I've found my way into the symphonies and the penny has dropped, as it were, it might be a very different story; so I'm glad to have them sitting there waiting for me to get back to them.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I have the complete music for solo piano performed by Ronald Brautigam, fortepiano. This includes the sonatas and all other works.

The Christine Schornsheim set seems out of print?


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## jurianbai

and still less people mentioned the three violin concerti of Haydn, chemistry of violin + harpshichord is actually nicer than piano, imo....


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## Elgarian

Speaking of harpsichords: does anyone have anything enlightening to say about whether or not he intended there to be a harpsichord continuo in the symphonies? I seem to read conflicting statements about this (I'm not even sure whether they're informed statements or merely guesses). I don't care much one way or the other - one hears it tinkling away quite noticeably in the Goodman performances (which arrived today) and it sounds as if it belongs there - but I gather opinion may have changed since 1990-ish.

Incidentally, I listened to a couple of the Helios/Goodman recordings today (symphonies 1 and 2) and they seemed delightful. I can't make comparisons with other versions because the works themselves are completely new to me, but I can tell we're going to get along just fine.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Elgarian said:


> Speaking of harpsichords: does anyone have anything enlightening to say about whether or not he intended there to be a harpsichord continuo in the symphonies? I seem to read conflicting statements about this (I'm not even sure whether they're informed statements or merely guesses). I don't care much one way or the other - one hears it tinkling away quite noticeably in the Goodman performances (which arrived today) and it sounds as if it belongs there - but I gather opinion may have changed since 1990-ish.
> 
> Incidentally, I listened to a couple of the Helios/Goodman recordings today (symphonies 1 and 2) and they seemed delightful. I can't make comparisons with other versions because the works themselves are completely new to me, but I can tell we're going to get along just fine.


An interesting one. Roy Goodman has the old harpsichord in the background in his Hyperion/Helio recordings, which appears contrary to what actually happened during the evenings of Esterhazy's exclusive entertainment. (Like you, I'm not really bothered by whether the direction came from the keyboard or not).

The arguments against its use are as follows, recalling them from the Decca sleeve notes from the Academy of Ancient Music/Hogwood recordings (written by a Haydn scholar/musicologist James Webster, Cornell professor of music at the time of recordings):-

- Unlike the other large scale instrumental works performed at Esterhazy, such as the concerti and operas, keyboard notation/figured bass exist in abundance in the score, but no indication exist in the symphonies

- Scholarship has a very good idea of how many players made up the Esterhazy chamber orchestra, and who they most likely were (records from salary/employment etc.) and no keyboard player other than Haydn himself were employed. Unless Haydn himself was directing from the keyboard, no other keyboard player was there to do so, but as scholars argue, Haydn directed from the violin (see next point).

- Haydn himself appeared to have directed the symphonies from the violin. The _Farewell_ symphony's ending, where each player makes its own exit, shows two violin lines before the symphony concludes, presumably Haydn himself and one other.

"Public" symphonies, different story.


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## Elgarian

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> - Scholarship has a very good idea of how many players made up the Esterhazy chamber orchestra, and who they most likely were (records from salary/employment etc.) and no keyboard player other than Haydn himself were employed. Unless Haydn himself was directing from the keyboard, no other keyboard player was there to do so, but as scholars argue, Haydn directed from the violin (see next point).
> 
> - Haydn himself appeared to have directed the symphonies from the violin. The _Farewell_ symphony's ending, where each player makes its own exit, shows two violin lines before the symphony concludes, presumably Haydn himself and one other.


Many thanks for this, which makes a persuasive case. If the results of scholarship you mention here are post 1990s, then I presume Goodman's statement in his booklet notes is outdated, namely: 'since I firmly believe that Haydn either played or expected a keyboard continuo instrument, I direct symphonies 1 to 92 from the harpsichord, and symphonies 93 to 104 from a Broadwood fortepiano, with the violins divided on opposite sides.'

Unfortunately he doesn't say _why_ he believes this.


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## Nix

I've been exploring more Haydn recently. His London Symphonies, Cello Concertos and 11th Piano Concerto are among my favorites. The piano concerto I find to be underplayed- it's every bit as good as some of the Mozart Vienna ones. 

Still have to listen to The Creation, Nelson Mass and string quartets though.


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## Elgarian

Just a short update on the Goodman symphonies on Hyperion/Helios. I've listened to the first few CDs in the series now (up to no. 14) and I must say I find them delightful in every way.

Being unfamiliar with these early-number symphonies, and having no other performances to compare them with, I can't make any_ relative_ observations. But perhaps it's enough to say that just as I think Pinnock's 'Sturm und Drang' box provides me with the only performances of those symphonies that I'm likely to want or need, so I think these Goodman recordings will probably do the same job for the earlier symphonies. They're spirited, period performances, thoroughly satisfying and full of delights.

The Presto Classical sale is still on well into March, so I shall certainly buy more from this series next month to fill up as many remaining gaps as I can in the Haydn symphony series.

Samples & info available here.

Presto Classical sale here.


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## Amon Ra

Haydn. His sinfonia concertante not well known like Mozart but just as good. Abbado DG. 
2 CDs piano sonatas svatoslav Richter: very good!


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## haydnfan

Amon Ra said:


> Haydn. His sinfonia concertante not well known like Mozart but just as good. Abbado DG.
> 2 CDs piano sonatas svatoslav Richter: very good!


I love the sinfonia concertante! Even though Haydn's concertos are not as well received as Mozart, I really enjoy some of them for instance the cello concertos.


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## clavichorder

Try symphony number 51 in b flat. I can't believe how outstanding that one is. My email is [email protected] if anyone would like to be emailed a free recording.


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## Moscow-Mahler

My collection of Haydn is very narrow yet. I have some *Thomas Fey* recordings of 40xx-60xx symphonies and like them. And "Paris" with Dorati.

Have anyone heard LPO and Vladimir Jurowski' recordingof Seven Last Words? Or any other recording of this work? I want to try some recording of this work.


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## Guest

Moscow-Mahler said:


> My collection of Haydn is very narrow yet. I have some *Thomas Fey* recordings of 40xx-60xx symphonies and like them. And "Paris" with Dorati.
> 
> Have anyone heard LPO and Vladimir Jurowski' recordingof Seven Last Words? Or any other recording of this work? I want to try some recording of this work.


Get Jordi Savall's. Very good recording.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Thank you very much for the advice. I'll try it! I have Water Music with him and it's great/


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## jurianbai

come across this interesting note in Festetics Strin quartet wikipedia:


> Haydn's original manuscript scores (notation), bear systematic marks which have no apparent musical meaning. The Festetics Quartet claim that the composer made those marks to have specific meaning, that they have tried to understand them and play Haydn's works accordingly.
> 
> The Festetics Quartet has recorded all of the Haydn string quartets, available on CD.


any one know more info on this???


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> come across this interesting note in Festetics Strin quartet wikipedia:
> 
> any one know more info on this???


Reads like marketing promotion. Many composers had their own idiosyncractic notation and there will no doubt be some element of interpretation involved. Dots and dashes used by composer X from a particular period did not necessarily mean the same thing by another composer of the same period. All interesting stuff.


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## Argus

Haydn is top class background music when you are concentrating on something other than the music. It never becomes intriguing enough to divert your attention from the task at hand.


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## jurianbai

Argus said:


> It never becomes intriguing enough to divert your attention from the task at hand.


haha...not really


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## neoshredder

Great composer. Love his Trumpet concerto and Cello Concerto.


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## Vaneyes

Well, his name's in the title.

Variations on a Theme by Haydn for Orchestra Op. 56a.


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## SPR

I have this sort of romantic notion in my head that Haydn was one of THE most influential and important composers of all time. I mean top 5 type importance. I sort of base it on his influence on Beethoven and Mozart, and all of Austria and Vienna in that period - which I think is considerable.

am I crazy? I admittedly only have a casual, though enthusiastic interest in classical music for more than a few years now - so I suppose the notion could be pure fantasy. Also - outside of his string quartets (In my mind, some of the finest music ever written) - I have not been entirely drawn to his music - which I cant quite reconcile with my admiration of 'Papa Haydn'.


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## Vaneyes

You're dead-on. Huge impact, and one of the nice guys.


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## Lunasong

From a letter written near the end of Haydn's life:

_Often, as I struggled with obstacles of every kind opposed to my works--often, as my physical and mental powers sank and I had difficulty in keeping to my chosen course--an inner voice whispered to me: "There are so few happy and contented men here below--on every hand care and sorrow pursue them--perhaps your work may someday be a source from which men laden with anxieties and burdened with affairs may derive a few moments of rest and refreshment." This, then, was a powerful motive to persevere, this the reason why I can even now look back with profound satisfaction on what I have accomplished._

Amen.


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## CVM

Vaneyes said:


> Well, his name's in the title.
> 
> Variations on a Theme by Haydn for Orchestra Op. 56a.


But unfortunately the theme (part of a divertimento for winds) was written by someone else, probably Ignaz Pleyel.


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## Romantic Geek

I think Haydn's piano sonatas are vastly underrated on a whole. Well, at least the ones that are played the most are more of his mediocre ones. Some of his early ones are really quite fascinating on their own right.

I've found this one particularly fun to play. This recording is kind of bleh (maybe because it's on a period instrument). But it's really fun!


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## Operadowney

I very recently embarked on a three month course on the Music of the First Viennese School. In that time I wrote a paper on the vocal output of Haydn. Through this paper I got to listen to some exquisite music and really developed a liking for the music of Joseph Haydn - particularly his operatic output. Quite good I must say.


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## Sonata

haydnfan said:


> I love the sinfonia concertante! Even though Haydn's concertos are not as well received as Mozart, I really enjoy some of them for instance the cello concertos.


The cello concertos are wonderful. They were my introduction to Haydn, and probably still my favorite pieces of the relatively small Haydn output I've listened to so far.


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## science

Could be merged: http://www.talkclassical.com/19655-so-ive-got-little.html


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## Ripvanwinkle

My involvement with Haydn is through his symphonies. I don't believe I have heard the string quartets. It is high time I did so I will be exploring them shortly. I agree that he had a tremendous influence on music that has carried on to this day.


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## Cheyenne

Now that I have trouble not spending more money on his works, and have been devouring his works with a swiftness of listening I've rarely exhibited before, I think it is time for met to bring new life to this thread. Let me ask you a general question, and thank you profusely for answering beforehand: what are your favorite Haydn recordings? The Bernstein and Szell symphony recordings and the Hakan Hardenberger trumpet concerto with Marriner are the favorites of the limited ones I own, and I need some recommendations, so that I can ponder even longer how I'm going to spend all my money again.


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## Kleinzeit

Cheyenne said:


> Now that I have trouble not spending more money on his works, and have been devouring his works with a swiftness of listening I've rarely exhibited before, I think it is time for met to bring new life to this thread. Let me ask you a general question, and thank you profusely for answering beforehand: what are your favorite Haydn recordings? The Bernstein and Szell symphony recordings and the Hakan Hardenberger trumpet concerto with Marriner are the favorites of the limited ones I own, and I need some recommendations, so that I can ponder even longer how I'm going to spend all my money again.


I have various symphonies by Bernstein and Sigiswald Kuijken & La Petite Bande, as well as a fine box of the masses & The Creation with Weil & Tafelmusik et al. 
Also great sounding string quartets by Quatuor Mosaïques. These seem to be top choice, but costly.
Got all kinds of Haydn from pickup sources over the years. I think it's easy to make him sound good.

Here's my thing: I've been eyeing the 150 disc Brilliant box. How I'd like to eventually hear all the Baryton trios, for instance, without paying out crazy money. You don't need exquisite versions of baryton trios. All the piano trios! The concertos! All the string quartets. Not to mention all the symphonies.

I'm happy with the Brilliant Bach box. But when I bought it @$145 Cdn., the whimsical Amazon pricing logarithms immediately dropped the price down to $100. One-third! Insult!

So now I sit like cat at mousehole waiting for the one day the Haydn box dips. It stays at the ridiculously low price for no more than a day. 
What I'm saying is that with Haydn I'm holding out for the complete-ish edition, and enjoying what I've got in the meantime. Enjoying a lot. But real Haydn-heads can give you the lowdown on the most exqviss recordings.


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## Guest

Ahh, Haydn. A wealth of gems out there. My first suggestion is that quality Haydn recordings need not be expensive. For the string quartets, the Naxos recordings with the Kodaly Quartet are quite good. Are they as good as Quatuor Mosaiques? No. But that doesn't mean they are crap. Naxos also has an excellent box set of Haydn's masses - a genre for which I believe he has been highly overlooked. Many of those recordings have received rave reviews. And, in addition, the recording of his Creation on Naxos, conducted by Andreas Spering, is my personal favorite.

After that, some of the gems in my collection are:
The recording of his "7 Last Words of Christ on the Cross" by Jordi Savall.
The Nelson Mass conducted by Trevor Pinnock.
The 3 volume set of his piano sonatas recorded by Marc-Andre Hamelin.

For his symphonies, I am quite fond of the recordings by Rene Jacobs on Harmonia Mundi, as well as Mackerras' recordings on Telarc.

Ronald Brautigam also has done a series of Haydn's solo keyboard works, recorded using a fortepiano on the BIS label, that is very good. I have the 10th volume of that set, and really enjoy it.


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## KenOC

A well-recorded set of all the Haydn piano sonatas, played by Ekaterina Derzhavina, is recently available as a download for $9.49! I have this and recommend it. You can listen to the extracts first to see if you like her style.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-The-Pia..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369944486&sr=301-1


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## Vaneyes

Cheyenne said:


> Now that I have trouble not spending more money on his works, and have been devouring his works with a swiftness of listening I've rarely exhibited before, I think it is time for met to bring new life to this thread. Let me ask you a general question, and thank you profusely for answering beforehand: what are your favorite Haydn recordings? The Bernstein and Szell symphony recordings and the Hakan Hardenberger trumpet concerto with Marriner are the favorites of the limited ones I own, and I need some recommendations, so that I can ponder even longer how I'm going to spend all my money again.


String Quartets: Op. 20 w. Mosaiques Qt.; Opp. 50, 64, 76 w. Lindsay, or Auryn, or Tokyo.
Piano Trios: Beaux Arts Trio.
Piano Sonatas: Ts'ong, Sudbin, Xiao-Mei, Gould, Hamelin, Bavouzet.


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## DavidA

I've just been listening to the creation in the car as I go back and forth to work. It really is a most fantastic work, so full of joy.


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## violadude

Just listened to his "Bear" symphony last night. Not being a hardcore Haydn connoisseur (yet), I was very impressed. The beginning sounds like an action-adventure movie haha. A wealth of invention in this one (like I'm sure there is in most of them, at least regarding the mature ones). Haydn is a great composer for those who say that all classical era music sounds the same, he was clearly quite versatile. I'm assuming the "bear" refers to the heavy handedness of the last movement. Had it not been for the nickname it would have made me think more of peasant music (which is probably more what Haydn had in mind) but oh well.


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## KenOC

violadude said:


> A wealth of invention in this one (like I'm sure there is in most of them, at least regarding the mature ones).


I'm not sure Haydn wrote any "immature" symphonies (unlike Mozart). Somebody may want to comment on this, yea or nay...

Anyway, you made me run for Wiki: "As with the nicknames of all Haydn's symphonies, it did not originate with the composer. Instead, the name derives from a recurring feature from the last movement (including its famous opening), in which Haydn intimates the tonality of a bagpipes or Dudelsack: a low sustained drone, accentuated by a grace-note on the downbeat. This curious tonality prompted an 1829 piano arrangement of the symphony to be entitled 'Danse de l'Ours,' the earliest known printed appearance of the nickname. This is a reference to the music used to accompany dancing bears - a popular form of street entertainment."


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## violadude

KenOC said:


> I'm not sure Haydn wrote any "immature" symphonies (unlike Mozart). Somebody may want to comment on this, yea or nay...


Surely, a good handful of the earlier symphonies are not quite as full or developed as the later ones, no?


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## KenOC

violadude said:


> Surely, a good handful of the earlier symphonies are not quite as full or developed as the later ones, no?


I think that's true, but most are full of interest. Also, the earlier symphonies tend to have lots of great solo passages, something that disappears in the later ones. Give some a listen! Nos. 6, 7, and 8 (Morning, Noon, and Night) have always been popular.


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## Cheyenne

Kleinzeit said:


> Here's my thing: I've been eyeing the 150 disc Brilliant box. How I'd like to eventually hear all the Baryton trios, for instance, without paying out crazy money. You don't need exquisite versions of baryton trios. All the piano trios! The concertos! All the string quartets. Not to mention all the symphonies.


Yes, but I have almost all the symphonies and many of the concertos already, and prefer better recordings of the string quartets. Despite the fact that I can obtain it rather cheap, I think I can make significantly better purchases.



DrMike said:


> After that, some of the gems in my collection are:
> The recording of his "7 Last Words of Christ on the Cross" by Jordi Savall.
> The Nelson Mass conducted by Trevor Pinnock.
> The 3 volume set of his piano sonatas recorded by Marc-Andre Hamelin.
> 
> For his symphonies, I am quite fond of the recordings by Rene Jacobs on Harmonia Mundi, as well as Mackerras' recordings on Telarc.
> 
> Ronald Brautigam also has done a series of Haydn's solo keyboard works, recorded using a fortepiano on the BIS label, that is very good. I have the 10th volume of that set, and really enjoy it.


I'll look into those, I've head my eyes on the Savall and Pinnock before. I have one of Rene Jacob's recordings of Haydn and, while not disliking it intensely, must state in all honesty that it is not among my favorites.



KenOC said:


> A well-recorded set of all the Haydn piano sonatas, played by Ekaterina Derzhavina, is recently available as a download for $9.49! I have this and recommend it. You can listen to the extracts first to see if you like her style.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-The-Pia..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369944486&sr=301-1


It's too bad I miss many deals on amazon, but unfortunately there is no easy way for met to get those, and I don't like MP3 downloads anyway.



Vaneyes said:


> String Quartets: Op. 20 w. Mosaiques Qt.; Opp. 50, 64, 76 w. Lindsay, or Auryn, or Tokyo.
> Piano Trios: Beaux Arts Trio.
> Piano Sonatas: Ts'ong, Sudbin, Xiao-Mei, Gould, Hamelin, Bavouzet.


I'll definitely look out for all of those. First I have to decide on a favorite for the piano works.. I have some by Alain Planès that seem fine.

The String Quartets seem to be the thing I really have to look for right now, since I only own 1, and the piano trios seem like a great deal too, as they're available cheaply, and then when I have some more money I can consider more piano music and vocal music. Thanks a lot for the recommendations!


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## Novelette

KenOC said:


> I think that's true, but most are full of interest. Also, the earlier symphonies tend to have lots of great solo passages, something that disappears in the later ones. Give some a listen! Nos. 6, 7, and 8 (Morning, Noon, and Night) have always been popular.


I agree that the early symphonies are also full of interest. In truth, there's really nothing that issued from Haydn's pen that I dislike. The late symphonies are an archetype of symphonic monumentalism, so to speak: larger ensemble, and longer, more expansive musical structures to boot. They're absolutely breathtaking, but still, the early symphonies have a charm all of their own--for me, at least.


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## Ravndal

Beautiful. Second movement as well.


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## Guest

Novelette said:


> I agree that the early symphonies are also full of interest. *In truth, there's really nothing that issued from Haydn's pen that I dislike.* The late symphonies are an archetype of symphonic monumentalism, so to speak: larger ensemble, and longer, more expansive musical structures to boot. They're absolutely breathtaking, but still, the early symphonies have a charm all of their own--for me, at least.


In general I agree, but with one major exception - opera. Haydn wasn't much of an operatic composer. I am not a huge opera fan in the first place, so I don't consider that much of a strike against him, but there it is. I own one opera of his - Philemon und Baucis (if I remember correctly, it was a marionette Singspiel) - and while the recording is very pleasant, I could really take or leave the work.


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## Novelette

DrMike said:


> In general I agree, but with one major exception - opera. Haydn wasn't much of an operatic composer. I am not a huge opera fan in the first place, so I don't consider that much of a strike against him, but there it is. I own one opera of his - Philemon und Baucis (if I remember correctly, it was a marionette Singspiel) - and while the recording is very pleasant, I could really take or leave the work.


I've listened to a good number of his operas, and I too find them generally less than extraordinary. Still, his Orfeo is a gem, especially with Bartoli. I like these works, although I find Mozart's operas more impressive on the whole.


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## Novelette

Ravndal said:


> ::videos removed so as not to slow the loading speed of this thread::
> 
> Beautiful. Second movement as well.


Ravndal, you really love Horowitz's playing, don't you?


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## Guest

*All piano trios' period performance*



Cheyenne said:


> Yes, but I have almost all the symphonies and many of the concertos already, and prefer better recordings of the string quartets. Despite the fact that I can obtain it rather cheap, I think I can make significantly better purchases.
> 
> I'll look into those, I've head my eyes on the Savall and Pinnock before. I have one of Rene Jacob's recordings of Haydn and, while not disliking it intensely, must state in all honesty that it is not among my favorites.
> 
> It's too bad I miss many deals on amazon, but unfortunately there is no easy way for met to get those, and I don't like MP3 downloads anyway.
> 
> I'll definitely look out for all of those. First I have to decide on a favorite for the piano works.. I have some by Alain Planès that seem fine.
> 
> The String Quartets seem to be the thing I really have to look for right now, since I only own 1, and the piano trios seem like a great deal too, as they're available cheaply, and then when I have some more money I can consider more piano music and vocal music. Thanks a lot for the recommendations!


Here are the his piano trio's period performances under Van Swieten Trio: 






























I think ALL of the piano trios are covered here.

Masterly performances of masterpieces. Enjoy!


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## Ravndal

Novelette said:


> Ravndal, you really love Horowitz's playing, don't you?


One of my go-to pianist at 'new' pieces


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## Sonata

KenOC said:


> A well-recorded set of all the Haydn piano sonatas, played by Ekaterina Derzhavina, is recently available as a download for $9.49! I have this and recommend it. You can listen to the extracts first to see if you like her style.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-The-Pia..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369944486&sr=301-1


My that IS tempting. *pondering*


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## Ravndal

Very tempting, indeed. Hmm.


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## Sonata

yep, I ordered it and am listening now


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## Sonata

So, there are 9 discs in that collection (well, MP3 download, but it's still divided the same way).
I have decided to listen to 1 disc per work day. Pretty good plan, I'll listen tomorrow, all of next week and finish middle of the following 

After this I plan to move on to Karajan's recommended YouTube videos of the piano trios, not to mention continuing to work through my Big Haydn Box.

I love his trumpet concerto, it's just wonderful.


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## Cheyenne

Sonata said:


> I love his trumpet concerto, it's just wonderful.


I love it too; I have Bennett/Pinnock and Hardenberg/Marriner, but want to explore other recordings too. 
In any case, I'm starting a big London symphony project, in order that I can finally settle on my favorite recordings of them all - it started because I wanted to order some Haydn London sets and released many of them were limited editions that would be difficult to get soon, and figured that, since I wanted so many already, I might as well get most of the acclaimed ones. My current list is Szell, Bernstein, Jochum, Davis, Beecham, Scherchen, Harnoncourt, Klemperer and Solti, as well as scattered recordings of individual ones by Rosbaud, Jacobs, Hogwood and Furtwängler. Any other recommendations for the London Symphonies?


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## Karabiner

Cheyenne said:


> I love it too; I have Bennett/Pinnock and Hardenberg/Marriner, but want to explore other recordings too.
> In any case, I'm starting a big London symphony project, in order that I can finally settle on my favorite recordings of them all - it started because I wanted to order some Haydn London sets and released many of them were limited editions that would be difficult to get soon, and figured that, since I wanted so many already, I might as well get most of the acclaimed ones. My current list is Szell, Bernstein, Jochum, Davis, Beecham, Scherchen, Harnoncourt, Klemperer and Solti, as well as scattered recordings of individual ones by Rosbaud, Jacobs, Hogwood and Furtwängler. Any other recommendations for the London Symphonies?


Kuijken's interpretations of the London Symphonies are worth a listen, although I've only got through a couple so far - I'll listen to the rest and then try and compare them to the Davis set which I also have.


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## Novelette

Karabiner said:


> Kuijken's interpretations of the London Symphonies are worth a listen, although I've only got through a couple so far - I'll listen to the rest and then try and compare them to the Davis set which I also have.


Wow! I had not listened to Kuijken's Haydn recordings. I am listening to his recording of Haydn's 86th Symphony [in D], and I'm very much enjoying it. I might have to order some new CD's right away. Thank you for the suggestion!


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## Vaneyes

Novelette said:


> Wow! I had not listened to Kuijken's Haydn recordings. I am listening to his recording of Haydn's 86th Symphony [in D], and I'm very much enjoying it. I might have to order some new CD's right away. Thank you for the suggestion!


I think K's "Paris" are the ones to go for. Re "London", I prefer Harnoncourt, Beecham, Tate. :tiphat:


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## Cheyenne

"_When we talk of classical music we mean Haydn's. He created the thing, and it ended with him. He has sanity, lucidity, pointedness, sometimes epigrammatic piquancy of expression, dignity without pompousness or grandiloquence, feeling without hysteria. His variety seems endless, his energy never flags, and often he has more than a touch of the divine quality. He did not attempt to compose tragedies of life, for his temperament forbade it; but in his finest music he is never commonplace, because he had a strongly marked temperament and was poetically inspired. By dint of a sincerity that was perfect he made music which, though it is shaped in outline by the classical spirit, will be for ever interesting. To listen to him immediately after Tschaikowsky is hard, sometimes impossible, yet to me it seems anything but impossible that our descendants will be listening to him when students are turning to the biographical dictionaries to find out who Tschaikowsky was. A century ago Haydn was as fresh and novel as Tschaikowsky is now, and as overwhelming a personality in the world of music as the mighty Wagner. But time equalizes and evens things, and in another hundred years all that is merely up-to-date in musical speech and phraseology will have lost its flavour and seductiveness; but the voice that is sincere, whether the word is spoken to-day or was spoken a century ago, will sound as clear as ever, and the one voice shall not be clearer nor more convincing than the other._"
- John F. Runciman

I'm very busy with collecting and researching recordings of Haydn's London Symphonies right now. School is distracting me but I will continue again soon. The Haydn House has rereleased some forgotten classics, such as Munch's 104 and Leslie Jones' recordings, if anyone is interested. I unfortunately can't afford any of them, but I will do the best I can with Youtube.


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## Geo Dude

Novelette said:


> Wow! I had not listened to Kuijken's Haydn recordings. I am listening to his recording of Haydn's 86th Symphony [in D], and I'm very much enjoying it. I might have to order some new CD's right away. Thank you for the suggestion!


Kuijken's London symphonies are great. I've also heard good things about Weil's new recordings and Minkowski's recording (the infamous silliness in the Surprise symphony aside), and Fischer's London (and the rest of his Haydn for that matter).


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## Novelette

Geo Dude said:


> Kuijken's London symphonies are great. I've also heard good things about Weil's new recordings and Minkowski's recording (the infamous silliness in the Surprise symphony aside), and Fischer's London (and the rest of his Haydn for that matter).


I have Fischer's and Dorati's Complete Haydn Symphonies. Great sets, both of them. I might have to add Kuijken's recordings to my set. There are few things as joyous and consistently astonishing as Haydn's magisterial symphonies.


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## starry

I suppose Fischer isn't bad, but I definitely prefer Dorati and also some later HIP recordings which can add more energy and character to the performances.


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## Cheyenne

I certainly find Fischer a little tame in the London Symphonies at the very least.


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## KenOC

Cheyenne said:


> I certainly find Fischer a little tame in the London Symphonies at the very least.


I also find Fischer a bit bloodless. Overall I prefer Davies' set, and Dorati's to that in many cases. Of course there are many fine recordings of the later symphonies by other conductors.


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## Cheyenne

KenOC said:


> I also find Fischer a bit bloodless. Overall I prefer Davies' set, and Dorati's to that in many cases. Of course there are many fine recordings of the later symphonies by other conductors.


Glad to hear I'm not the only one! And yes, there are many fine London sets out there, as well as several good Paris symphonies, but Dorati is honestly really good, whereas Fischer's late ones are among his worst (and the first few recorded, with rather clumsy recording techniques that make the sound feel very distant).


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## Ramako

Cheyenne said:


> Glad to hear I'm not the only one! And yes, there are many fine London sets out there, as well as several good Paris symphonies, but Dorati is honestly really good, whereas Fischer's late ones are among his worst (and the first few recorded, with rather clumsy recording techniques that make the sound feel very distant).


Agreed, Fischer is not great on the late symphonies in general.

Got to love the early ones though:


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## Guest

Cheyenne said:


> "_When we talk of classical music we mean Haydn's. He created the thing, and it ended with him. He has sanity, lucidity, pointedness, sometimes epigrammatic piquancy of expression, *dignity without pompousness or grandiloquence*, feeling without hysteria. His variety seems endless, his energy never flags, and often he has more than a touch of the divine quality._


 (my bold).

I really like Haydn, and like to read where he is praised.

But can the author really have written this without any sense of irony?


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## KenOC

MacLeod said:


> But can the author really have written this without any sense of irony?


Runciman was (usually) a wise critic. His quote seems on target to me.


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## Novelette

Ramako said:


> Agreed, Fischer is not great on the late symphonies in general.
> 
> *Got to love the early ones though*:
> 
> [removed video of Haydn's 39th Symphony to keep the thread from becoming too slow to load]


Ramako, I was thinking the exact same symphony as I read your words.

The funny thing is, a few years ago, there were only two videos on YouTube containing this music:

One video contained a dreadfully bland recording, the other contained a decent recording but wasn't the focus of the video: it was some weird guy making his poor, obviously unamused cat _dance to the music_.


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## hreichgott

MacLeod said:


> can the author really have written this without any sense of irony?


Of course, and I wholeheartedly agree with those sentiments, except I think Mozart and Beethoven and Schubert continued the excellence of the classical period of course. I might add, "joy without cheesy cheerleading," which is what I most love about Haydn.


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## Guest

hreichgott said:


> Of course, and I wholeheartedly agree with those sentiments, except I think Mozart and Beethoven and Schubert continued the excellence of the classical period of course. I might add, "joy without cheesy cheerleading," which is what I most love about Haydn.


Disagreeing with Runciman is not what my post was about. I was just amused by the thought that he was being pompous and grandiloquent in saying that Haydn's music is not pompous and grandiloquent.

As for whether this is an accurate description of Haydn's music.



> He has sanity, lucidity, pointedness, sometimes epigrammatic piquancy of expression, dignity without pompousness or grandiloquence, feeling without hysteria.


I find it hard to agree with such a description. Whilst I get the overall thrust - Haydn might be civilised where (some other composer) is barbaric - I'm not sure that I can see 'sanity' and 'lucidity' in any piece of music by any composer, because I don't see how such attributes might be derived except by association.


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## Sid James

A great quote I read by a certain famous contemporary of Haydn about his music:

"He alone has the secret of making me smile and touching me at the bottom of my soul…There is no one who can do it all - to joke and terrify, to evoke laughter and profound sentiment - and all equally well: except Joseph Haydn."

- W.A. Mozart.

[I agree with this 100 per cent!].


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## Cheyenne

Sid James said:


> A great quote I read by a certain famous contemporary of Haydn about his music:
> 
> "He alone has the secret of making me smile and touching me at the bottom of my soul…There is no one who can do it all - to joke and terrify, to evoke laughter and profound sentiment - and all equally well: except Joseph Haydn."
> 
> - W.A. Mozart.
> 
> [I agree with this 100 per cent!].


I don't agree 100 percent, for there are other composers who can do that to me, among them Mozart!

Here is the tempi table for the first bunch of the symphony no. 104 recordings I listened to, the others (Kuijken, Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Tate, Norrington, Celibidache, Furtwängler and Jones) did not get saved properly, and since there are variations in repeats taken and so forth it doesn't really matter anyway.










The only few recordings I would definitely abstain from are Solti's with the LSO, Scherchen with the VSO, Celibidache with the MSO, Norrington with the SWGRO or LCP and Fischer with the AHHO. That of Solti is perfectly executed and recorded but so tight it becomes characterless, and for once it loses all its power because of the large orchestra - not to mention the dreadfully dull andante, that he seemed to want to get on with quickly. It pains me to dissuade people from buying any Scherchen Haydn recording, but his 104 is just too slow - one of the few unimpressive one in his set (get the DG set if you can find it, it's amazing). Celibidache appears to think Haydn is Bruckner. He's not. Norrington takes the period-instrument approach as far as Jacobs, but with less success - I find it sounds messy and uncoordinated. His recording with the London Classical Players is better but now instead of being strange, it is simply a little dull. Fischer, like with most of the later symphonies, has little going for him; unexciting performances that have neither the grandeur of the big orchestras nor the refinement of the period instrument ones.

Bernstein's finale is great, and among the best I have heard - some may find it overbearing, but I absolutely love the raw power of it. Unfortunately he suffers from another dull andante and the rest of the symphony isn't particularly outstanding, and those used to faster tempos will despise his slow and grand minuet. Szell, one I originally judged the lesser of Bernstein, has grown on me tremendously after several hearings, and I now judge it as among the most solid of all I've heard. Jochum, bless the man, takes the minuet at period instrument speed, and his recording sound is among the best of the large orchestras, together with Bernstein; and his andante is perfectly touching. Unfortunately, I find his final movement a little too robust and restrained, but perhaps that's just me - it's one to check out yourself. Davis, long seen as a hallmark in the London Symphonies for the generally great quality of his set, does another solid job here, but with nothing outstanding: I don't find myself returning to it often. The playing is excellent though. Beecham I find too gentle for the no. 104, his grace will be more useful in the earlier London Symphonies. Klemperer is very masculine, and though he takes slow tempi too, I find them quite satisfying with him, far more so than with Scherchen. His first movement I especially like. Dorati, like Davis, is very solid, and has a very characteristic sound that makes him stand out, but he remains middle-of-the-road. Rosbaud is uniformly excellent - what a shame he did not record more Haydn! The sound is not the best though, and he's also on the slower side. Though the praise he gets is very understandable, he actually is not among my favorites. Woldike's recording is great fun, and very cheaply available in mp3 format from amazong (the 'Big Haydn Box').

Kiujken is a very worthy peroid-instrument conductor, and one to add to the collection for that alone; Brüggen is good but not as good as Kiujken, and he suffers from some sound issues because it is an oddly recorded live performance. Harnoncourt's concergebouw orchestra version finds a comfortable middle-ground, and I was delighted to find another fast minuet. The sound and playing are amazing, and his andante lovely. Regarding Tate, I dislike his phrasing, he has a tendency to bring out certain details in a way that I dislike, and his minuet is as slow as the large orchestra ones without much of the grandeur. Furtwängler is great at points but not always so, and the sound is so atrocious most will be dissuaded immediately anyway. Jones is neat but also chooses this strange middle-grounds (including a harpsichord) that I do not at all like.

There are some I was not able to obtain, because the CDs were unavailable and not Spotify or Youtube - including Munch with the BSO, though the CD is now for sale at the Haydn House. You can find most on Spotify, so don't take my word for everything! My favorites are now Szell, Jochum, Kiujken and Harnoncourt, and I will perhaps play Furtwängler, Bernstein and Klemperer once in a while too. On to the next one! I think I'll do one of the earlier ones.


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## Guest

My current favorite for the 104 is Nicholas McGegan with the Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra. Very nice sound, great interpretation.

I wouldn't imagine Celibidache would be very good for Haydn. For Bruckner, yes - Haydn, not so much.


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## Cheyenne

DrMike said:


> My current favorite for the 104 is Nicholas McGegan with the Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra. Very nice sound, great interpretation.
> 
> I wouldn't imagine Celibidache would be very good for Haydn. For Bruckner, yes - Haydn, not so much.


I listened to it just now, but found it far less vivacious than the Kiujken one. Are his other London Symphonies good? 
As for Celibidache, he's such a fine Bruckner conductor that people sometimes forget he can be good in other material as well, such as Brahms, but when I state he treats Haydn as Bruckner I mean it: slow and grand without a trace of humor. You can hear it in the andante especially, it sounds like a failed Bruckner adagio.


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## Novelette

hreichgott said:


> Of course, and I wholeheartedly agree with those sentiments, except I think Mozart and Beethoven and Schubert continued the excellence of the classical period of course. I might add, "*joy without cheesy cheerleading*," which is what I most love about Haydn.


Which is more than I can often say about Dittersdorf. Sometimes his chipper works are joyful to the point of nausea.  I still like his music, though.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn is a very sane, calculating composer, who is a master of many styles. He could sound like baroque or he could sound like Beethoven, his musical range is terrific because of the length of his career and his consistency. Also, his humour is entirely original, it sounds like no other composer. I love waiting for that 'moment' when the quirky winds come in, waiting for the 'fart' in the 93rd symphony or hearing the lion roar in the Creation - it's primal fun, just delicious.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Efraim said:


> Once he was, and until not very long ago. Berlioz walked out of the concert hall when they started to play Haydn, Schumann didn't walk out but wrote condescendingly about his music. His quartets used to be played by amateurs, but the scores of his symphonies were unavailable, some of them completely forgotten. He started to be appreciated, indeed discovered again in the 40s, but it was a very slow process. I don't remember a single concert program in the 60s, 70s and 80s with a single work of Haydn, except for the Farewell symphony played by the pupils' orchestra of my High School.


I guess Berlioz and Schumann were missing out big time.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I also really like that one! The adagio has such a nice horn solo in it and the outer movements are fast, detailed and lively.


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## Cheyenne

Surprisingly, Karajan's symphony 104 is actually rather good. I am no Karajan supporter, and his set of paris symphonies is frankly terrible (it doesn't 'dance'!), but that he loved this symphony and programmed it often is evident. The playing of the orchestra is, of course, immaculate, but besides that he has the respect that Solti lacked. Not a bad performance at all.


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## Guest

Listening closely to Symphony 99, trying to work out what happens at the climax of the adagio, where the theme is repeated for the third time - either an instrument comes in (is it a second flute or a piccolo?), or the counterpoint is amazing (or both), but it brings a lump to my throat.

In this version, it occurs around 15:55






Can anyone explain what is going on (in the music, that is, not my throat!)?


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## starry

Cheyenne said:


> I don't agree 100 percent, for there are other composers who can do that to me, among them Mozart!


Others can probably do it I expect. Haydn does go to some extremes from very rustic to deeply intense if you look at different works. Mozart can obviously do intense but he probably didn't get quite as rustic. That doesn't obviously make him better than others but it's just something to consider concerning the characteristics of his music.



Lunasong said:


> From a letter written near the end of Haydn's life:
> 
> _Often, as I struggled with obstacles of every kind opposed to my works--often, as my physical and mental powers sank and I had difficulty in keeping to my chosen course--an inner voice whispered to me: "There are so few happy and contented men here below--on every hand care and sorrow pursue them--perhaps your work may someday be a source from which men laden with anxieties and burdened with affairs may derive a few moments of rest and refreshment." This, then, was a powerful motive to persevere, this the reason why I can even now look back with profound satisfaction on what I have accomplished._
> 
> Amen.


Maybe we can say this is a characteristic of the classical period more than any other with its more populist leanings, and others like Mozart would probably have agreed with this too.


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## Ramako

@Macleod

That is one of my favourite adagios of Haydn's output!

Contextually, the theme is a 'trying again'. The previous playing of the theme did not end 'satisfactorily' (the way it was set out the first time it was played in the exposition). Instead of the cadence, it veers off into an expansion of the dotted idea (about 14:55 on that recording) which ends on an elaborate expansion of a dominant chord which creates a significant expectation (15:10), the more so because it ends in first inversion and because of the inflections of the minor mode, and also the long, winding melodic line of the violins over the top (15:30) typical of Haydn.

So much for the way the theme is prepared. The theme is particularly beautiful for its texture and orchestration. This playing (beginning at 15:40) is arranged differently, with the chords being played by repeated semiquavers rather than held notes. I think this allows the high upper pedal note in the flutes to stand out more (although the performance will have something to do with that too), though this pedal point has been in all previous playings of the theme.

At 15:55 what happens is that the flutes (I think both of them) stop playing this held note and join in with the melodic line, which is a strong effect because it is different to what has happened on all the previous playings of the theme. It emphasises that particular movement of the melody, putting a new light on it and allowing the poignancy of the dissonant ornament to shine out all the more. The harmony has a great deal to do with it too. The following up, and resolving, with a tutti playing of the cadence is a particularly ingenious stroke, suggestive of a heroic 'second time round' which however does not lose the character of the previous time but rather overcomes, or transcends, it.

Words are somewhat deficient, but the crucial point is that the flutes abandon the counterpoint they had been playing on all previous playings of the theme at 15:55 and join in the melody.


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## Guest

Ramako said:


> Words are somewhat deficient


Not at all. I think you've explained very well, although there is one precise note where the flutes separate which is, I think, the clincher. The melody rises to a high held note, before descending back down, and its the first off the peak where the flutes resume a harmony? It's that exact moment that seems to set off a chemical reaction in the brain! I wish I had the means to explain it better myself.


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## Ramako

MacLeod said:


> Not at all. I think you've explained very well, although there is one precise note where the flutes separate which is, I think, the clincher. The melody rises to a high held note, before descending back down, and its the first off the peak where the flutes resume a harmony? It's that exact moment that seems to set off a chemical reaction in the brain! I wish I had the means to explain it better myself.


Sorry, I had meant to reply to this before but forgot.

Having recourse to the score, I see that it is not just the flutes but the oboes as well: both go to the high note (a D) and then, coming off it, the oboes are in thirds (below) with the flutes (the clarinet joins the oboes an octave below to prevent the sound being too piercing). That's also the note of the dissonant ornament I mentioned before. It's a wonderful moment... But music is it's own language, if it may be termed as such (which I usually reject), and ultimately one can only describe what is there.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Ramako said:


> @Macleod
> 
> That is one of my favourite adagios of Haydn's output!
> 
> Contextually, the theme is a 'trying again'. The previous playing of the theme did not end 'satisfactorily' (the way it was set out the first time it was played in the exposition). Instead of the cadence, it veers off into an expansion of the dotted idea (about 14:55 on that recording) which ends on an elaborate expansion of a dominant chord which creates a significant expectation (15:10), the more so because it ends in first inversion and because of the inflections of the minor mode, and also the long, winding melodic line of the violins over the top (15:30) typical of Haydn.
> 
> So much for the way the theme is prepared. The theme is particularly beautiful for its texture and orchestration. This playing (beginning at 15:40) is arranged differently, with the chords being played by repeated semiquavers rather than held notes. I think this allows the high upper pedal note in the flutes to stand out more (although the performance will have something to do with that too), though this pedal point has been in all previous playings of the theme.
> 
> At 15:55 what happens is that the flutes (I think both of them) stop playing this held note and join in with the melodic line, which is a strong effect because it is different to what has happened on all the previous playings of the theme. It emphasises that particular movement of the melody, putting a new light on it and allowing the poignancy of the dissonant ornament to shine out all the more. The harmony has a great deal to do with it too. The following up, and resolving, with a tutti playing of the cadence is a particularly ingenious stroke, suggestive of a heroic 'second time round' which however does not lose the character of the previous time but rather overcomes, or transcends, it.
> 
> Words are somewhat deficient, but the crucial point is that the flutes abandon the counterpoint they had been playing on all previous playings of the theme at 15:55 and join in the melody.


excellent post! (and now to get to 25 characters).


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Ramako said:


> Sorry, I had meant to reply to this before but forgot.
> 
> Having recourse to the score, I see that it is not just the flutes but the oboes as well: both go to the high note (a D) and then, coming off it, the oboes are in thirds (below) with the flutes (the clarinet joins the oboes an octave below to prevent the sound being too piercing). That's also the note of the dissonant ornament I mentioned before. It's a wonderful moment... But music is it's own language, if it may be termed as such (which I usually reject), and ultimately one can only describe what is there.


Isn't it thought that Haydn wrote this adagio in memory of Marianne von Genzinger, when he heard that she passed away?


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## Ramako

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Isn't it thought that Haydn wrote this adagio in memory of Marianne von Genzinger, when he heard that she passed away?


It has been speculated. I doubt it is a direct _homage_, but the mood does seem to be one of desolation, which seems reasonable in its wake.

A more convincing direct musical reaction to her death is possibly found in the coda beautiful F minor variations, a section of astonishingly powerful and yet simple and therefore apparently genuine grief an extent to which I confess I have not found in more famously 'moody' composers (perhaps it is simply because I like Haydn).


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Ramako said:


> It has been speculated. I doubt it is a direct _homage_, but the mood does seem to be one of desolation, which seems reasonable in its wake.
> 
> A more convincing direct musical reaction to her death is possibly found in the coda beautiful F minor variations, a section of astonishingly powerful and yet simple and therefore apparently genuine grief an extent to which I confess I have not found in more famously 'moody' composers (perhaps it is simply because I like Haydn).


Thanks for the link, Ramako - I haven't listened to the variations in F minor in a while. This sort of reminds me of the Moonlight sonata, who knows, maybe Beethoven drew inspiration here .


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## Guest

Ramako said:


> the mood does seem to be one of desolation


I'm reminded again of the umpteen threads (including the current Mozart v Beethoven where I posted about 'wheedily deedily' music) where some comments have attempted to explore/extol/debunk the notion that music carries emotion that the composer consciously put there, or that are 'intrinsically' in certain harmonies/melodies/keys. It seems to me to be the most important debate about music and should not be so lightly treated (I know, I'm as guilty as the next poster!)

Certainly, there are some passages in the adagio which seem _to this listener_ to carry a degree of melancholy, and the final part has a bittersweet flavour. Would I say that there is a mood of desolation? Probably not, though I don't mean to quibble semantically, so I went back and listened again and paused again at the part where the horns go staccato at 15:12. I asked myself what JH was trying to achieve here...just a novel transition? creating tension? a deliberate attempt at conveying anything in particular or a mere technical exercise?

Any thoughts?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

MacLeod said:


> I'm reminded again of the umpteen threads (including the current Mozart v Beethoven where I posted about 'wheedily deedily' music) where some comments have attempted to explore/extol/debunk the notion that music carries emotion that the composer consciously put there, or that are 'intrinsically' in certain harmonies/melodies/keys. It seems to me to be the most important debate about music and should not be so lightly treated (I know, I'm as guilty as the next poster!)
> 
> Certainly, there are some passages in the adagio which seem _to this listener_ to carry a degree of melancholy, and the final part has a bittersweet flavour. Would I say that there is a mood of desolation? Probably not, though I don't mean to quibble semantically, so I went back and listened again and paused again at the part where the horns go staccato at 15:12. I asked myself what JH was trying to achieve here...just a novel transition? creating tension? a deliberate attempt at conveying anything in particular or a mere technical exercise?
> 
> Any thoughts?


Maybe a novel transition which creates tension? Haydn was always concerned with both being innovative and also with affecting his listeners. Maybe it was the novelty itself which was affecting? Ah, but it's music, it's hard to say. But this 'unknown' aspect makes listening to music even more fascinating since it makes the listener think about the creative process the composer went through.


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## Ramako

MacLeod said:


> I'm reminded again of the umpteen threads (including the current Mozart v Beethoven where I posted about 'wheedily deedily' music) where some comments have attempted to explore/extol/debunk the notion that music carries emotion that the composer consciously put there, or that are 'intrinsically' in certain harmonies/melodies/keys. It seems to me to be the most important debate about music and should not be so lightly treated (I know, I'm as guilty as the next poster!)
> 
> Certainly, there are some passages in the adagio which seem _to this listener_ to carry a degree of melancholy, and the final part has a bittersweet flavour. Would I say that there is a mood of desolation? Probably not, though I don't mean to quibble semantically, so I went back and listened again and paused again at the part where the horns go staccato at 15:12. I asked myself what JH was trying to achieve here...just a novel transition? creating tension? a deliberate attempt at conveying anything in particular or a mere technical exercise?
> 
> Any thoughts?


It is an essential question...

Desolation is a word I used carelessly, being lucky enough to have never lost anyone close to me. Perhaps consolation in desolation? I don't know, and yes we do get lost in semantics (I believe far more than we have different reactions to the music).

I think there is a grain of the music everyone perceives in the same way - some people tend to forget the notes are the same after all. And music does arouse feelings, which apparently slips others' memory.

What Haydn was trying to achieve is something we cannot know, though we can speculate, and we do know what he did achieve. He was often looking for different effects (he did not always succeed, but did manage to capture quite an impressive range), but novelty for its own sake is a doubtful value, and one considered more so then. Novelty does not last, and the idea that something was new once makes it valuable does not make sense for an artform. What does tension even mean? I use it often enough, but it has such a wide meaning that mainly I know it as the antithesis of relaxation, which rapidly begs the question.

The exciting thing about music is that it is impossible to separate the technical from the emotional... Thus a technical exercise is an emotional one... and vice-versa. I would say that Haydn was aiming at a particular emotional an technical effect (they are the same) which he felt was suitable for that place in the piece. Whether his aim was communicating his feelings or simply trying to make a good piece of music we cannot know, though I personally lean heavily towards the latter (it is less clear in other composers).


----------



## Cheyenne

Basic rundown of my preferred 86 recordings:

The Great: Bernstein, Walter, Schuricht
The Good: Fischer, Hugo Wolff, Fey, Kuijken
The Okay: Marriner, Menuhin
The Bad: Dorati, Barenboim, Rattle, Bour
The Ugly: Karajan

Schuricht was a delightful surprise.. Bernstein has the most energy, but Schuricht is swifter - Walter is more gentle. The next four are all solid period-instrument performances (or 'period-style' in Fischer's case), but none matched the first three for me. Marinner and Menuhin are nothing special, and from there on it just goes downhill. I have no idea what Dorati was thinking, Barenboim is dull and sounds horrible, Rattle is too slow, Bour is not at all compelling. As for Karajan, it's a shame he wasted such a great orchestra on such a lackluster performance.


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## Guest

You didn't mention The Davis?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I own the Kuijken and Bruno Weil performances of 86 - hard to say which one I like better, I'll have to listen to the Weil version again. My favourite movement is definitely the finale though  - rhythmic, humourous and joyful.


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## Cheyenne

MacLeod said:


> You didn't mention The Davis?


Out of print, can't find a copy, and it isn't on Youtube or Spotify  Same goes for Harnoncourt and some other generally acclaimed ones. It's probably quite good though, Davis has a flair for Haydn.


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## Mandryka

I've got a lot of pleasure and stimulation from Harnoncourt in 86, just because of the way you can hear all the different lines of music interrelating. That matters more to me than energy or fizz or forward drive or stuff like that. 

Other ones to think about are Leslie Jones and Bruggen.


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## Cheyenne

Mandryka said:


> I've got a lot of pleasure and stimulation from Harnoncourt in 86, just because of the way you can hear all the different lines of music interrelating. That matters more to me than energy or fizz or forward drive or stuff like that.
> 
> Other ones to think about are Leslie Jones and Bruggen.


I was simplifying their approach a lot, of course; clarity is important to me too. Do you have Leslie Jones on LP or did you get the CDs from the Haydn House?


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## Ukko

Ramako said:


> It has been speculated. I doubt it is a direct _homage_, but the mood does seem to be one of desolation, which seems reasonable in its wake.
> 
> A more convincing direct musical reaction to her death is possibly found in the coda beautiful F minor variations, a section of astonishingly powerful and yet simple and therefore apparently genuine grief an extent to which I confess I have not found in more famously 'moody' composers (perhaps it is simply because I like Haydn).


Yet another example of the imprecision of music as 'language'. I don't hear grief there.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Let's bring back Haydn - I ordered this recently:









Waiting (very patiently) for it to arrive in the mail. Very, very patiently .


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## niv

How do you tackle Haydn? I've been listening to various random pieces (I'm particulary in love with the string quartets, they're a joy to listen to), but the guy wrote TOO much, and it seems it's all pretty darn good.

(an hypothesis: I think he is underrepresented in polls because there are way too many pieces by his compared to most composers, so votes tend to be spread up over many compositions)


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## shangoyal

Haydn was Beethovenian before Beethoven.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

niv said:


> How do you tackle Haydn? I've been listening to various random pieces (I'm particulary in love with the string quartets, they're a joy to listen to), but the guy wrote TOO much, and it seems it's all pretty darn good.
> 
> (an hypothesis: I think he is underrepresented in polls because there are way too many pieces by his compared to most composers, so votes tend to be spread up over many compositions)


The best thing might be to start with the London symphonies and his Op. 76 quartets, these are all excellent. Then I'd go for the Sturm und Drang symphonies (26, 49, 45, 52, 46, etc.), the sonatas (the ones in minor keys, the famous D major with the baroque-sounding largo, numbers 59-62) and of course to The Creation, The Seasons and the late masses.

But just start with the London symphonies, I guess that would be my first suggestion.


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## Winterreisender

My favourite early Haydn symphony is #27 (primarily on the strength of the glorious first movement). I think this is one of his finest melodies, it's just so cheerful. I have not heard all of his symphonies yet; I am still working through the Adam Fischer complete box set. And I have scarcely scratched the surface on his Piano Trios and Piano Sonatas, but I like what I've heard. So I agree that no other composer (except perhaps Bach) wrote so much consistently top quality music.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Winterreisender, do you have other versions of the London symphonies? Adam Fischer's set doesn't contain the best renditions of the London symphonies, which are actually Haydn's greatest. Of course, there is some subjectivity involved but I would definitely, for these symphonies, hear a few samples from other conductors to see which sound you like most for them.


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## Winterreisender

Fischer is the only set I own, although I have listened to Harnoncourt do some of the later ones and I find his versions to be excellent.


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## Ramako

Colin Davis' set is very good (I have seen it labelled 'definitive', but don't want to use that word)


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## Cheyenne

Jochum, Bernstein, Kuijken, Davis, Szell (incomplete), Dorati and Beecham will all do fine as introductions to the London Symphonies.


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## Roi N

Not all people are musicians. It is the task for the musicians (those who study music and truly understand it) to decide if someone was a great composer. However, given the fact that musicians aren't the majority of the people, he can still be unpopular. People, from my experience, just don't understand Haydn. Listen to Symphony No. 70, the fugue in the finale is great and very original. Listen to Op. 20 String Quartets. AMAZING. L'ours Symphony (82). UNBELIEVABLE. Cello concerto in C and Trumpet concerto in E Flat. Best concerti by far. Yet still people prefer Beethoven and Mozart (who are also great, just not as Haydn). Go figure.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Roi N said:


> Not all people are musicians. It is the task for the musicians (those who study music and truly understand it) to decide if someone was a great composer. However, given the fact that musicians aren't the majority of the people, he can still be unpopular. People, from my experience, just don't understand Haydn. Listen to Symphony No. 70, the fugue in the finale is great and very original. Listen to Op. 20 String Quartets. AMAZING. L'ours Symphony (82). UNBELIEVABLE. Cello concerto in C and Trumpet concerto in E Flat. Best concerti by far. Yet still people prefer Beethoven and Mozart (who are also great, just not as Haydn). Go figure.


Well, I think this might be because in Haydn's music, it's not necessarily always the 'content', or the melody (or 'hook') that plays the most important role. A lot of the time it's the intricacy of the structure, elements of surprise, instrumental question-and-answer segments, which make his pieces so interesting. Maybe that's the reason he doesn't seem to be as popular as Beethoven or Mozart, but on the other hand, J. Haydn is reasonably popular nowadays and his works are played regularly by orchestras, which can't be said about his brother Michael Haydn, who was also an excellent composer.


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## Vaneyes

Linked, Tom Service's exploration of Le Matin. My favorite recording isn't mentioned, w. St. Luke's Chamber Ensemble (Arabesque, rec. 2000). :tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/oct/15/symphony-guide-haydn-sixth-tom-service


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## Weston

I'm confused. I'm looking into The Creation and some of the best recordings seem to be in English. Is this proper? I know Handel wrote his oratorios in English, but he lived in England. I don't know which version to get, or if it matters. Hearing that opening fortissimo -- surely music's prediction of the Big Bang Theory, I'm really wanting this.


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## KenOC

Weston said:


> I'm confused. I'm looking into The Creation and some of the best recordings seem to be in English. Is this proper? I know Handel wrote his oratorios in English, but he lived in England. I don't know which version to get, or if it matters. Hearing that opening fortissimo -- surely music's prediction of the Big Bang Theory, I'm really wanting this.


The original libretto of The Creation was written in English. Haydn gave Baron van Swieten the job of fitting it to the music and preparing a parallel German version. The Baron's English wasn't the best, and the resulting English version has been criticized but is still the usual version used in English-speaking countries. Haydn himself preferred that version for performances in England.


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## Weston

Thank you -- thank you! I couldn't find any info on this on the web and it is seldom that I get this driven at my age.


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## KenOC

Weston said:


> Thank you -- thank you! I couldn't find any info on this on the web and it is seldom that I get this driven at my age.


Actually that's all from the Wiki entry on the Creation... :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn_Creation


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## Muddy

Just finished listening to all of the quartets of op.76. Superb! To me, Haydn is Mozart's equal here. Hell, maybe greater. Fabulous music!


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## trazom

Muddy said:


> Just finished listening to all of the quartets of op.76. Superb! To me, Haydn is Mozart's equal here. Hell, maybe greater. Fabulous music!


Equal to or greater in what respect? Their quartets are so utterly different in style: Haydn's strength in rhythmic and motivic unity, Mozart's 6 "Haydn" quartets in varying textures, melody, and counterpoint.


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## KenOC

trazom said:


> Equal to or greater in what respect?


Good question (if I may butt in). Haydn's are "greater" at least in the respect that I enjoy listening to them more. No disrespect to Herr M!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Muddy said:


> Just finished listening to all of the quartets of op.76. Superb! To me, Haydn is Mozart's equal here. Hell, maybe greater. Fabulous music!


Which set did you listen to? Just curious.


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## Muddy

I listened to the Kodaly set. I confess that after imbibing fine ales from Unibroue, I am prone to hyperbole. Such was the case last night.  Hadyn's quartets sound elegant and flawless to me, much like Mozart's. I am not an expert, but I don't hear the huge difference in styles suggested by trazom. Doesn't mean there aren't, but to me the similarities are more striking than the differences. That may change with greater exposure.


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## Vaneyes

Haydn and Mozart had a mutual admiration society, so there's no need to go to who's best wherever. Remember, there are no betters or bests, only preferences. :tiphat:


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## Guest

Haydn is another of my top 10 composers. I just love his works, and always have done. I think that I have just about acquired everything of any significance that he wrote. I reckon that my favorite Haydn genre is the string quartet. But there again I love his piano trios, keyboard sonatas, and of course not forgetting many of his truly wonderful symphonies, major choral works, masses etc. There isn't anything about Haydn's music writing that I find disagreeable. It's different in style to Mozart in a way that I've always found quite easy to identify. If truth be told I rather prefer Mozart, who at his very best I think surpassed Haydn's best, but that's nit-picking as I'm still very highly impressed with what Haydn achieved overall. He stands head and shoulders above many others.


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## Muddy

Vaneyes said:


> Haydn and Mozart had a mutual admiration society, so there's no need to go to who's best wherever. Remember, there are no betters or bests, only preferences. :tiphat:


I agree, but I have always ranked things in my mind. Literature, Movies, etc I just can't help placing my favorites in a certain order. It's how I am wired and I have fun doing it.


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## shangoyal

A composer who can make you smile, cry, think deeply, be carefree all in one movement of 5 minute length. He had a gift for invention, and he developed the Classical style. Perhaps I like him more because he is relatively obscure - and I want to come back again and again to praise him.


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## Vaneyes

"Miracle" is picked for the 50 best. And rightly so, ACO/Harnoncourt recording gets a nod.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/dec/09/symphony-guide-haydn-102-miracle


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## Blake

His piano sonatas are pulling on my heart-strings right now.


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## Funny

shangoyal said:


> Haydn was Beethovenian before Beethoven.


Not to take anything away from Beethoven - I still recognize the quantum leap he made to found the Romantic era - BUT there are more than a few passages, gestures and tone colors that I had always thought of Beethoven as introducing into the symphonic literature... until I started listening to all of Haydn's symphonies and finding them there.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

shangoyal said:


> A composer who can make you smile, cry, think deeply, be carefree all in one movement of 5 minute length. He had a gift for invention, and he developed the Classical style. Perhaps I like him more because he is relatively obscure - and I want to come back again and again to praise him.


Very well put, shangoyal - Haydn was very versatile for sure. He also composed in a different fashion than the 'modern' ear is used to hearing, which makes him intriguing to discover, imo. Although he could also write some pretty catchy tunes when he needed to, like in the Creation, for example. Structure is a very important aspect of his work. Also, in a lot of his pieces there's that spontaneous element of the unexpected which grabs my attention every time.


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## neoshredder

He's got some catchy tunes. But I prefer Mozart and Beethoven more. And if you consider Schubert Classical, him as well. But Haydn was the first big Composer of the classical era. If it wasn't for him, history would be different.


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## Vesteralen

I have the Haydn symphonies in both sets of my regular disc rotation - one for the car, one for work. I don't know if I can explain why, but I never seem to tire of them and I never get the feeling when one of those discs comes up for play again that I'd rather it were something else instead.

That no doubt says more about me than it does about Haydn, but, anyway, he gets my vote.


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## Blake

Vesteralen said:


> I have the Haydn symphonies in both sets of my regular disc rotation - one for the car, one for work. I don't know if I can explain why, but I never seem to tire of them and I never get the feeling when one of those discs comes up for play again that I'd rather it were something else instead.
> 
> That no doubt says more about me than it does about Haydn, but, anyway, he gets my vote.


Yup, you're a looney-tune with exquisite taste. :tiphat:


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## neoshredder

I guess I prefer more intensity to my music. Haydn is too laid back for my taste. I'm not saying all his music is this way. I tend to prefer his first movement in the symphony. The second movement puts me to sleep though.


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## Blake

Life is change. Maybe over time your taste will settle out and you'll see Haydn in a different light. I used to be more attracted to aggressive music before I started having a craving for the subtle.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Vesteralen said:


> I have the Haydn symphonies in both sets of my regular disc rotation - one for the car, one for work. I don't know if I can explain why, but I never seem to tire of them and I never get the feeling when one of those discs comes up for play again that I'd rather it were something else instead.
> 
> That no doubt says more about me than it does about Haydn, but, anyway, he gets my vote.


Which symphony sets do you own, Vesteralen? I was thinking of getting another set of the Sturm und Drang symphonies - Bruno Weil's set has a very crisp sound, but somehow he doesn't always get the depth of the pieces imo.


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## Vesteralen

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Which symphony sets do you own, Vesteralen? I was thinking of getting another set of the Sturm und Drang symphonies - Bruno Weil's set has a very crisp sound, but somehow he doesn't always get the depth of the pieces imo.


Adam Fischer. I'd never give up my Szells for the London's that he recorded, but I've been more than satisfied with Fischer for the rest.


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## neoshredder

So which do you prefer? London Symphonies or Sturm und Drang Symphonies?


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## Vesteralen

neoshredder said:


> So which do you prefer? London Symphonies or Sturm und Drang Symphonies?


I'm not sure if you meant me, but I wouldn't like to be without either. If I were forced to choose between one set and the other, I'd probably pick the London symphonies.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Vesteralen said:


> Adam Fischer. I'd never give up my Szells for the London's that he recorded, but I've been more than satisfied with Fischer for the rest.


Thanks for the tip on Szell - I was thinking of getting another London symphonies set eventually. I have Günther Herbig's set, which is good, but it would be nice to have some more readings.


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## Vesteralen

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Thanks for the tip on Szell - I was thinking of getting another London symphonies set eventually. I have Günther Herbig's set, which is good, but it would be nice to have some more readings.


When I was first getting into classical music in the early 1970s my parents wanted to get me a present. I had recently seen some kind of TV show on PBS with Bernstein conducting Haydn's 102nd symphony. So, when they asked me what I wanted I asked them for a recording of that work. They bought me Klemperer's version on Angel which also had #100 (which was surprisingly good, though very full-blown orchestrally by today's standards).

This just fed my desire for more Haydn. A year or so later, as a going away present, they bought me the 3LP set of Szell doing #93-98. I absolutely fell in love with Szell's Haydn. One word that was often used to describe the Szell sound was "lean". He was kind of HIP before HIP was hip. But, reputation as a martinet aside, his Haydn had tremendous humor, too.

When I got rid of most of my LPs about fifteen years ago, I just could not part with these early Haydn LPs. I still have them today.

Fortunately, I also finally found Szell's Haydn on Sony. It has my old #93-98, but also includes #88, 92, 99 and 104.

I've heard more "authentic" versions of these works in the CD era, but I've never heard any I liked as well as these.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Vesteralen said:


> When I was first getting into classical music in the early 1970s my parents wanted to get me a present. I had recently seen some kind of TV show on PBS with Bernstein conducting Haydn's 102nd symphony. So, when they asked me what I wanted I asked them for a recording of that work. They bought me Klemperer's version on Angel which also had #100 (which was surprisingly good, though very full-blown orchestrally by today's standards).
> 
> This just fed my desire for more Haydn. A year or so later, as a going away present, they bought me the 3LP set of Szell doing #93-98. I absolutely fell in love with Szell's Haydn. One word that was often used to describe the Szell sound was "lean". He was kind of HIP before HIP was hip. But, reputation as a martinet aside, his Haydn had tremendous humor, too.
> 
> When I got rid of most of my LPs about fifteen years ago, I just could not part with these early Haydn LPs. I still have them today.
> 
> Fortunately, I also finally found Szell's Haydn on Sony. It has my old #93-98, but also includes #88, 92, 99 and 104.
> 
> I've heard more "authentic" versions of these works in the CD era, but I've never heard any I liked as well as these.


Thanks, Vesteralen, I'll definitely be considering the set if I decide to get more London symphony recordings.


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## joen_cph

Does anyone know the conductor of this magnificently broad, romantically coloured and old-school version of symphony no. 49 "La Passione"?
It isn´t Scherchen, Marriner or Dorati - the sound indicates a relatively new recording ...


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## Blake

joen_cph said:


> Does anyone know the conductor of this magnificently broad, romantically coloured and old-school version of symphony no. 49 "La Passione"?
> It isn´t Scherchen, Marriner or Dorati - the sound indicates a relatively new recording ...


Could be Thomas Fey, but I haven't had the chance to compare yet.


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## joen_cph

It isn´t Thomas Fey´s Hännsler recording; the timings are given in a comment below the video, and they don´t correspond to Fey http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=8227


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## Blake

The other names I've come across were Solomons, Orpheus CO, Ward, Brown, Koopman, Janigro, and Cooper. 
Good Luck. :tiphat:


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## joen_cph

Vesuvius said:


> The other names I've come across were Solomons, Orpheus CO, Ward, Brown, Koopman, Janigro, and Cooper.
> Good Luck. :tiphat:


I´d expect more "slender" versions from those (don´t know a conductor Cooper, though) ... 
Well, maybe a result comes up.


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## Vaneyes

It's *Adam Fischer* (Nimbus, Brilliant Classics). :tiphat:


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## joen_cph

Holy Cow, I have that one, but didn´t think of him at all - thank you !!!


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## Blake

Haha, sometimes what you're looking for is right under your nose.

I might pick up that set, as well. Thanks, Vaneyes.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

They should make a movie about Haydn. That would be awesome. Wait, actually, there is one - Haydns Nacht, a German film. It's done using puppets though, but it seems to be quite philosophical and well thought-out, judging from the trailer:


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## hpowders

My favorite Haydn work is "The Creation". That really is most impressive!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> My favorite Haydn work is "The Creation". That really is most impressive!


Recently heard some samples of this interpretation and was very impressed:

http://www.amazon.de/Die-Schöpfung-...qid=1388688041&sr=8-1&keywords=Haydn+Christie

The beauty of Haydn is that anything you hear by him is bound to have some excellent ideas in it, imo.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Favourite The Seasons recordings? I've recently listened to Sawallisch's interpretation, and it's awesome - Ruth Ziesak is also a great soloist.









The piece is played on modern instruments in this recording.


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Recently heard some samples of this interpretation and was very impressed:
> 
> http://www.amazon.de/Die-Schöpfung-...qid=1388688041&sr=8-1&keywords=Haydn+Christie
> 
> The beauty of Haydn is that anything you hear by him is bound to have some excellent ideas in it, imo.


Thanks! I wish it would be performed live somewhere near me!!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Thanks! I wish it would be performed live somewhere near me!!


Are performances of The Creation really that rare in the U.S.?


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Are performances of The Creation really that rare in the U.S.?


Yes! Rare even in NYC, Boston and Chicago where the arts are liveliest; and in Florida where I live, non existent!


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## StlukesguildOhio

Are performances of The Creation really that rare in the U.S.?

I heard it live twice in Cleveland. Once at the dress rehearsal (I used to get free passes from a co-worker who sang in the chorus)... and I was so blown away that I bought tickets to hear it again with the wife. As an added plus... the performance featured Thomas Quasthoff!


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## bharbeke

Haydn just passed Beethoven as my #2 classical composer, based on number of pieces that blow me away. Actually, they have the same number of those right now (10), so I use the secondary criterion of number of pieces that I want to hear again (40 vs. 26). There's still lots to hear from each, though, so this could go either way.

The piece that tipped the scale today was Haydn's Piano Sonata No. 1 (using the Hoboken numbers).


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## HaydnBearstheClock

What was the real Haydn like? I've posted some thoughts on this on the 'Do nice composers ever finish first' thread, but maybe it would also be fun to discuss this here.

Haydn: religious vs. Don Juan?
Chauvinistic vs. tolerant?
Academic vs. creatively free?
Barely literate, non-intellectual in other fields vs. Doctor of music, guide to other composers in terms of style and content
Nice, fatherly and servile vs. proud and greedy?

This is extremely ambivalent, and yet all of these attributes can be found in literature about Haydn. So what was he really like? Does anyone know another composer whose descriptions in literature are equally ambivalent? Mozart seems to be up there, but still.


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## Mahlerian

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Barely literate, non-intellectual in other fields vs. Doctor of music, guide to other composers in terms of style and content


This one is particularly true of Bruckner as well; a provincial in temperament and manners, with little interest in philosophy or literature. Next to intellectuals like Wagner and Brahms, he must have appeared positively foolish.

Of course, and this is true of Haydn as well, their lack of interest in other disciplines was amply compensated for by innate musicality and interest in questions of musical significance.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Mahlerian said:


> This one is particularly true of Bruckner as well; a provincial in temperament and manners, with little interest in philosophy or literature. Next to intellectuals like Wagner and Brahms, he must have appeared positively foolish.
> 
> Of course, and this is true of Haydn as well, their lack of interest in other disciplines was amply compensated for by innate musicality and interest in questions of musical significance.


That's very true - just listening to the first movement of Symphony No. 49, 'La Passione', tells me how much Haydn thought about his craft, how to advance it and imbue it with lasting energy. Strangely, some of the most thought-provoking music comes from him, imo. The Representation of Chaos, for example, can make you imagine the expanding cosmos; hard to believe that such depths of musical insight can be combined with a limited knowledge of other significant intellectual fields.

The way Haydn 'develops' his themes, is, I think, very intellectual in that it is both logical and musically effective.


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## Guest

Here's a fun question. Because I have been listening to Op. 76 like crazy, I must know: what is your favorite Haydn quartet set BESIDES Op. 76? Or perhaps, what is generally accepted as second best considering Op. 76 is *generally* considered the best?

And please, save your fun but counterproductive "Op. 76 isn't even in my top 3!" posts


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## KenOC

For me, any set from Op. 20 on. I don't think there's *any* difference in quality, though the style changes somewhat as time goes on. I wouldn't place Op. 76 above (or below) the other sets. In this game, there's no second-place -- IMO!


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## Guest

Good answer. You have not offended any of the mature quartets. 

I'll probably just go with whatever set from Op. 20 on that has the neatest nicknames and key signatures then, lol.


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## KenOC

Of course I'm still working through the Segerstam quartets...will Haydn be put into the shade?


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## Guest

I see what you did there.

I think I'll try the Sun quartets, after seeing that their composition date sits around the time of some of my favorite Sturm Und Drang symphonies.


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## KenOC

arcaneholocaust said:


> I think I'll try the Sun quartets, after seeing that their composition date sits around the time of some of my favorite Sturm Und Drang symphonies.


You may find the Sun Quartets a bit different from the Op. 76. More nervous, shorter themes and motives, little of the "broadness" found in Haydn when he was composing for performance as much as private playing.


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## Guest

Well I was hoping they wouldn't sound the exact same.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

The Op. 9 and Op. 17 sets should not be underestimated either - some excellent music there. Haydn's D minor quartet from Op. 9 is a famous one and is very good. But every quartet in Op. 9 is of high quality and is fun to listen to.


----------



## Funny

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> That's very true - just listening to the first movement of Symphony No. 49, 'La Passione', tells me how much Haydn thought about his craft, how to advance it and imbue it with lasting energy. ... The way Haydn 'develops' his themes, is, I think, very intellectual in that it is both logical and musically effective.


It's funny you should mention that - I've just been listening and re-listening to #49 and it's become one of my all-time favorites of his. The ideas he puts forward in the first movement are developed in fascinating ways into catchy tunes within striking textures, which is no surprise, but it seems to me that in this one he really wanted you to hear what was going on, so all the movements share the same key and you can hear the actual pitches carrying these motives over from one to the next. Similar to Symphony #80, another all-time favorite, which has an "odd" movement-by-movement key structure.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Funny said:


> It's funny you should mention that - I've just been listening and re-listening to #49 and it's become one of my all-time favorites of his. The ideas he puts forward in the first movement are developed in fascinating ways into catchy tunes within striking textures, which is no surprise, but it seems to me that in this one he really wanted you to hear what was going on, so all the movements share the same key and you can hear the actual pitches carrying these motives over from one to the next. Similar to Symphony #80, another all-time favorite, which has an "odd" movement-by-movement key structure.


The first movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 34 in D minor has a similar feel to the Adagio of No. 49; I need to hear that one again.


----------



## hpowders

Well, Franz Joseph, they are arguing again over your merits as a composer vs. Mozart. As your humble servant, I told them there's plenty of room for both, but you can imagine who I am dealing with!


----------



## KenOC

Haydn certainly had his own view of Mozart: "...scarcely any man can brook comparison with the great Mozart... If I could only impress on the soul of every friend of music, and on high personages in particular, how inimitable are Mozart's works, how profound, how musically intelligent, how extraordinarily sensitive! (for this is how I understand them, how I feel them) -- why then the nations would vie with each other to possess such a jewel within their frontiers."


----------



## Funny

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> The first movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 34 in D minor has a similar feel to the Adagio of No. 49; I need to hear that one again.


Went back and listened to 34 with 49 in mind. Good observation, thanks! As similar as their first movements are, even more striking are their second movements. The octave-jumping theme that is so striking in 49 is like an upside-down, stretched-out version of the one in 34. Also both of these works have a great movitic integrity that makes for fun repeated listens.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Funny said:


> Went back and listened to 34 with 49 in mind. Good observation, thanks! As similar as their first movements are, even more striking are their second movements. The octave-jumping theme that is so striking in 49 is like an upside-down, stretched-out version of the one in 34. Also both of these works have a great movitic integrity that makes for fun repeated listens.


The more I listen to Haydn's works, the more I like all of them, hehe.


----------



## senza sordino

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of Haydn's music. I only own one CD of his music, Op 76 strings quartets, and not the complete set, just #3, #2, #4. 

I'd like to get a CD of Haydn's violin concerti. How many did he write? Any recommendations? 

I have the sheet music for the G major concerto, I've muddled through playing the first movement. It's the G major Hob VIIa :4 

I also have no idea what that catalogue number means. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank-you.


----------



## Vaneyes

senza sordino said:


> You'll have to excuse my ignorance of Haydn's music. I only own one CD of his music, Op 76 strings quartets, and not the complete set, just #3, #2, #4.
> 
> I'd like to get a CD of Haydn's violin concerti. How many did he write? Any recommendations?
> 
> I have the sheet music for the G major concerto, I've muddled through playing the first movement. It's the G major Hob VIIa :4
> 
> I also have no idea what that catalogue number means.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank-you.


Haydn catalogue -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoboken-Verzeichnis

Haydn String Quartets -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_string_quartets_by_Joseph_Haydn

Suggested recordings:

String Quartets -

Op. 20 - Mosaiques Qt.
Op. 33 - Coull Qt.
Op. 50 - Lindsay Qt.
Op. 54 & 74 - Endellion Qt.
Op. 64 - Auryn Qt.
Op. 71 - Lindsay Qt.
Op. 76 - Tokyo Qt.
Last Three String Quartets - L'Archibudelli

Concerti: Grumiaux, violin; Ma, Du Pre, Rostropovich, cello; Argerich, piano.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Vaneyes said:


> Haydn catalogue -
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoboken-Verzeichnis
> 
> Haydn String Quartets -
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_string_quartets_by_Joseph_Haydn
> 
> Suggested recordings:
> 
> String Quartets -
> 
> Op. 20 - Mosaiques Qt.
> Op. 33 - Coull Qt.
> Op. 50 - Lindsay Qt.
> Op. 54 & 74 - Endellion Qt.
> Op. 64 - Auryn Qt.
> Op. 71 - Lindsay Qt.
> Op. 76 - Tokyo Qt.
> Last Three String Quartets - L'Archibudelli
> 
> Concerti: Grumiaux, violin; Ma, Du Pre, Rostropovich, cello; Argerich, piano.


I'll throw in some quartet suggestions as well:

Op. 9: Buchberger Quartet. 
Op. 20: London Haydn Quartet.
Op. 33: Buchberger Quartet, Apponyi sounds great as well.
Op. 50: Nomos-Quartett.
Op. 64: Quatuor-Festetics.
Op. 71: Kodály quartet.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

senza sordino said:


> You'll have to excuse my ignorance of Haydn's music. I only own one CD of his music, Op 76 strings quartets, and not the complete set, just #3, #2, #4.
> 
> I'd like to get a CD of Haydn's violin concerti. How many did he write? Any recommendations?
> 
> I have the sheet music for the G major concerto, I've muddled through playing the first movement. It's the G major Hob VIIa :4
> 
> I also have no idea what that catalogue number means.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank-you.


Which Op. 76 CD do you own? Is it the Kodály one?


----------



## senza sordino

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Which Op. 76 CD do you own? Is it the Kodály one?


Yes, the Naxos recording

Snooping around amazon I found this.
View attachment 36383

There are three violin concerti, two cello and one for violin and harpsichord. I haven't bought it yet, it looks pretty good.

(I'm on a small quest to collect many different violin concerti, I'm less inclined to collect a lot of Haydn)

Thank-you for your help everyone


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

senza sordino said:


> Yes, the Naxos recording
> 
> Snooping around amazon I found this.
> View attachment 36383
> 
> There are three violin concerti, two cello and one for violin and harpsichord. I haven't bought it yet, it looks pretty good.
> 
> (I'm on a small quest to collect many different violin concerti, I'm less inclined to collect a lot of Haydn)
> 
> Thank-you for your help everyone


I don't think you can go wrong with Haydn CDs, although I must say that his symphonies, quartets, oratorios, masses, piano trios and a number of piano sonatas are probably more impressive than his violin concertos. I of course enjoy these too, but these aren't really Haydn's greatest works.


----------



## hpowders

Mozart has Haydn beat in the violin concerto department. Can't win them all!


----------



## Haydn man

hpowders said:


> Mozart has Haydn beat in the violin concerto department. Can't win them all!


I would agree with you
My love of Haydn is largely based on the symphonies and string quartets so I shall explore the violin works in more detail


----------



## shangoyal

Yes, I would be tempted to say Mozart is as good as Bach in the violin concerto genre.


----------



## hpowders

Yeah. They were both good, but for violin concertos, I prefer Romantic and 20th century composers.


----------



## MagneticGhost

I can't speak for the violin concertos cos I've yet to hear them. The cello concertos on the other hand are absolutely amazing. Joyous and melodic and just grrrreat.


----------



## hpowders

Especially the C Major cello concerto.


----------



## Itullian

Haydn man said:


> I would agree with you
> My love of Haydn is largely based on the symphonies and string quartets so I shall explore the violin works in more detail


Don't forget the piano trios. awesome


----------



## hpowders

To celebrate this particular guestbook, I will play my two performances of Haydn's Creation today.

Hope I don't wear out my needle! Oh yeah...they are CD's.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> To celebrate this particular guestbook, I will play my two performances of Haydn's Creation today.
> 
> Hope I don't wear out my needle! Oh yeah...they are CD's.


And which ones would those be? 

Let me guess: one of them is Bernstein.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> And which ones would those be?
> 
> Let me guess: one of them is Bernstein.


No. I've never heard the Bernstein.

The two I have are:

1. Andreas Spering on Naxos. Original instruments, excellent singing by folks I've never heard of. Very stylish.

2. Joel Revzen on Albany with Lynne Dawson, Neil Rosenshein and John Cheek, St Paul Chamber Orchestra, Minnesota Chorale.

I prefer choice one.

Which performance or performances do you have?


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I have your first choice - also really like it. Been thinking of getting Christie's version, the samples sound awesome.


----------



## hpowders

You know, whenever I have a satisfying performance of anything, I always ruin it by going out and purchasing one or more other performances and they never measure up to the original. Perhaps, I'm just unlucky.


----------



## hpowders

For anyone interested, I am recommending the Haydn Creation CD's on Naxos with Andreas Spering. Original instruments and tonalities. The South Korean soprano Sunhae Im will absolutely knock your socks off!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> View attachment 36738
> 
> 
> For anyone interested, I am recommending the Haydn Creation CD's on Naxos with Andreas Spering. Original instruments and tonalities. The South Korean soprano Sunhae Im will absolutely knock your socks off!


Yes, she's great here, I agree.


----------



## hpowders

After spending a few days reacquainting myself with my old friends the great Haydn London Symphonies, there is no doubt that the absolute gems are 97 and 98. These two symphonies can stand up to the best from Mozart and Beethoven.

I bow before you FJ Haydn! :tiphat:

PS: I'm not crying. I ain't no wimp!!


----------



## Woodduck

Lunasong said:


> From a letter written near the end of Haydn's life:
> 
> _Often, as I struggled with obstacles of every kind opposed to my works--often, as my physical and mental powers sank and I had difficulty in keeping to my chosen course--an inner voice whispered to me: "There are so few happy and contented men here below--on every hand care and sorrow pursue them--perhaps your work may someday be a source from which men laden with anxieties and burdened with affairs may derive a few moments of rest and refreshment." This, then, was a powerful motive to persevere, this the reason why I can even now look back with profound satisfaction on what I have accomplished._
> 
> Amen.


I'm actually crying.


----------



## Itullian

Lunasong said:


> From a letter written near the end of Haydn's life:
> 
> _Often, as I struggled with obstacles of every kind opposed to my works--often, as my physical and mental powers sank and I had difficulty in keeping to my chosen course--an inner voice whispered to me: "There are so few happy and contented men here below--on every hand care and sorrow pursue them--perhaps your work may someday be a source from which men laden with anxieties and burdened with affairs may derive a few moments of rest and refreshment." This, then, was a powerful motive to persevere, this the reason why I can even now look back with profound satisfaction on what I have accomplished._
> 
> Amen.


So touching.....:angel:


----------



## hreichgott

Thanks Haydn! You were right.

(by the way, the OP on this thread still makes me chuckle.)


----------



## Woodduck

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> What was the real Haydn like? I've posted some thoughts on this on the 'Do nice composers ever finish first' thread, but maybe it would also be fun to discuss this here.
> 
> Haydn: religious vs. Don Juan?
> Chauvinistic vs. tolerant?
> Academic vs. creatively free?
> Barely literate, non-intellectual in other fields vs. Doctor of music, guide to other composers in terms of style and content
> Nice, fatherly and servile vs. proud and greedy?
> 
> This is extremely ambivalent, and yet all of these attributes can be found in literature about Haydn. So what was he really like? Does anyone know another composer whose descriptions in literature are equally ambivalent? Mozart seems to be up there, but still.


Can't answer this specifically about Haydn, but it occurs to me that most people have a lot of opposite, if not contradictory qualities - maybe creative people especially (maybe), and that our job isn't to eliminate or suppress any of our dichotomous tendencies but to keep them in balance and draw on them as needed. It's just easier to think we understand people, including ourselves, by simplifying them, and it makes easier the annoying business of dealing with them. I can believe Haydn was all of those things. Other great examples of complexity would be hypersensitive/gruff Brahms and proud/self-critical Tchaikovsky. To this artist (me) they all just sound like normal, complex artists!


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> So touching.....:angel:


The angel is entirely too cute.:devil:


----------



## hpowders

Christi said:


> What did he write ? A string trio ?


A couple of piano trios, a dabbling of string quartets, a gaggle of symphonies.
Hope he makes it. It's tough out there for composers.


----------



## hpowders

Time to play Bernstein's London Symphony set again.

Finished the Szell Haydn Symphony box. Szell's terrific in #97, 98 and 104. Unfortunately he never recorded #101 and #103.

Also to give Szell his proper due, nobody did the incredibly funny bassoon joke at the end of the Largo cantabile second movement of Haydn's 93rd symphony as well as Szell did. Brilliant!


----------



## Sonata

Lots of Haydn goodies ahead for me to listen to:

-An album of his horn, trumpet, and organ concertos
-Jacobs' recording of The Seasons
-Dorati's Haydn Operas collection
-Fischer's recording of symphonies 4-6

With the exception of the trumpet concerto and the opera Armida (different recording) these are all new to me Haydn works. Can't wait!


----------



## hpowders

I think I'm going insane. About to order the Colin Davis Haydn London Symphony boxed set after just purchasing Szell and Bernstein.

This is beginning to get compulsive; a mania!!

FJ Haydn: What are you doing to me???? :lol:


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> I think I'm going insane. About to order the Colin Davis Haydn London Symphony boxed set after just purchasing Szell and Bernstein.
> 
> This is beginning to get compulsive; a mania!!
> 
> FJ Haydn: What are you doing to me???? :lol:


I think I have you beat. I don't even wanna count my Haydn symphony sets.


----------



## hpowders

Itullian said:


> I think I have you beat. I don't even wanna count my Haydn symphony sets.


Plus I have some on period instruments.

Oh, the humanity!!!! :clap:


----------



## Woodduck

hpowders said:


> PS: I'm not crying. I ain't no wimp!!


Well I'm a wimp and I'm damn proud of it.


----------



## hpowders

Woodduck said:


> Well I'm a wimp and I'm damn proud of it.


Period or modern tissues?


----------



## Woodduck

hpowders said:


> Period or modern tissues?


Well, period, of course! Late 18th century.They're made of hemp and they're a bit rough on the nostrils, but I'm not as wimpy as all that.


----------



## Vaneyes

Woodduck said:


> Well, period, of course! Late 18th century.They're made of hemp and they're a bit rough on the nostrils, but I'm not as wimpy as all that.


That'd go perfect with a single malt from Islay.


----------



## hpowders

Very stylish handkerchief for Haydn!!!


----------



## Woodduck

Woodduck said:


> Well, period, of course! Late 18th century.They're made of hemp and they're a bit rough on the nostrils, but I'm not as wimpy as all that.


Two "likes" on this in two minutes? Hey, what about my serious stuff?!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Sonata said:


> Lots of Haydn goodies ahead for me to listen to:
> 
> -An album of his horn, trumpet, and organ concertos
> -Jacobs' recording of The Seasons
> -Dorati's Haydn Operas collection
> -Fischer's recording of symphonies 4-6
> 
> With the exception of the trumpet concerto and the opera Armida (different recording) these are all new to me Haydn works. Can't wait!


Ah, the joy of discovering new Haydn works. Have fun .


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Dear Herr Haydn, wishing you a happy birthday! May your music live on eternally.


----------



## hpowders

In Haydn's honor today, I just ordered the Sir Colin Davis set of the 12 London Symphonies!!

Happy Birthday!!! :tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

You da man, FJH.


----------



## hpowders

^^^George Washington never looked better!!!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> ^^^George Washington never looked better!!!


It's Haydn with the musical constitution, hehe.


----------



## hpowders

Put him on the American $ bill and its value immediately goes up to $1.35 from $1.00.


----------



## hpowders

Anxiously awaiting the arrival of Colin Davis' Haydn London Symphonies.
What I've already sampled (3 of the 12) I like.


----------



## hpowders

Better than I expected. The playing of the Concertgebouw around 1980 was truly awesome.

Only half the set arrived with great performances of #102 and 104.

I already know that #93, 94 and 96 are very fine from my single CD from 20 years ago.

Tomorrow I will get the other half of the London Symphonies with Davis/ Concertgebouw.


----------



## Weston

So if I want to test the waters with Haydn string quartets, where would be a good place to begin? I do not like recordings featuring too much sniffing or bow scraping (in other words miked too closely?) and I also don't want to hear a trill resolved to the tonic too often. Granted at my age I might benefit from tonic.

So should I begin with later Haydn? Say the Op. 76? I don't think I want to leap into a complete set of 68 or 70 or whatever.


----------



## Vaneyes

Weston said:


> So if I want to test the waters with Haydn string quartets, where would be a good place to begin? I do not like recordings featuring too much sniffing or bow scraping (in other words miked too closely?) and I also don't want to hear a trill resolved to the tonic too often. Granted at my age I might benefit from tonic.
> 
> So should I begin with later Haydn? Say the Op. 76? I don't think I want to leap into a complete set of 68 or 70 or whatever.


As I usually recommend with any composer/genre, begin chronologically.

For Haydn SQs, these specific recs...

Mosaiques Qt., Op. 20, Coull Qt., Op.33, Lindsay Qt., Op. 50.

If that goes well, there'll be more for you. :tiphat:


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Weston said:


> So if I want to test the waters with Haydn string quartets, where would be a good place to begin? I do not like recordings featuring too much sniffing or bow scraping (in other words miked too closely?) and I also don't want to hear a trill resolved to the tonic too often. Granted at my age I might benefit from tonic.
> 
> So should I begin with later Haydn? Say the Op. 76? I don't think I want to leap into a complete set of 68 or 70 or whatever.


Op. 76 is a great place to start. The 'Fifths' and 'Emperor' quartets would be the starting points, but all the quartets are excellent in the set. In fact, I think there are no Haydn quartets which are not excellent. You can then go back to Op. 50-54 or to Op. 33, then go back further to Op. 20 through to Op. 9, and then back up again to Op. 71, 74 and 77, 103. That way you'll have the different periods interchanging and see how Haydn's sound developed. The two strongest sets are probably Op. 20 and 76, but as said before, each set has a lot to offer.

I have the Op. 76 recording by the Buchberger Quartet, but I think there are better recordings. I'd ask around the boards. Have fun exploring .


----------



## hpowders

My favorite of Opus 76 is #5 in D Major. Just a personal preference.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> My favorite of Opus 76 is #5 in D Major. Just a personal preference.


The Largo is awesome. If I had to, I'd rank them as follows:
1. Fifths
2. No. 1
3. Sunrise
4. Emperor
5. No. 5
6. No. 6

But I don't have to, so they're all equally excellent .


----------



## hpowders

I love the "Sunrise" too.

I just sent away for the Emerson Quartet playing a sample of 7 of Haydn's best quartets composed throughout his career: Opus 20, #5; Opus 33, #2; Opus 76, #2; Opus 74, #3; Opus 64, #5; Opus 54, #1; Opus 77 #1.

It's called the "Haydn Project". I heard excerpts and it's superb.


----------



## Alypius

hpowders said:


> I love the "Sunrise" too.
> 
> I just sent away for the Emerson Quartet playing a sample of 7 of Haydn's best quartets composed throughout his career: Opus 20, #5; Opus 33, #2; Opus 76, #2; Opus 74, #3; Opus 64, #5; Opus 54, #1; Opus 77 #1.
> 
> It's called the "Haydn Project". I heard excerpts and it's superb.


hdpowders, If you get hooked on Haydn's SQs from the Emerson, be sure and try the Quatuor Mosaiques. It's a somewhat different sound. It's original instruments. It's the richest and warmest performances I've heard and, for me, is simply unmatched. The Quatuor Mosaiques' Haydn sets of the individual opuses had largely gone out of print. Last year, Naive boxed them up and reissued the whole set. Get them while you can. Much recommended!










Here's a good sampling on YouTube:


----------



## hpowders

Alypius said:


> hdpowders, If you get hooked on Haydn's SQs from the Emerson, be sure and try the Quatuor Mosaiques. It's a somewhat different sound. It's original instruments. The richest and warmest is, for me, simply unmatched. The Quatuor Mosaiques' Haydn sets of the individual opuses had largely gone out of print. Last year, Naive boxed them up and reissued the whole set. Get them while you can. Much recommended!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a good sampling on YouTube:


Yes. Thanks! I already have the QM doing the opus 76 quartets. Once you get used to the wiry sound of the gut strings, the performances are good.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Yes. Thanks! I already have the QM doing the opus 76 quartets. Once you get used to the wiry sound of the gut strings, the performances are good.


If I'm not mistaken, The London Haydn Quartet's sound is even more 'wiry' than that of the QM, but I find their recording of Op. 20 to be excellent. They pay very fine attention to the detail in these great works.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> If I'm not mistaken, The London Haydn Quartet's sound is even more 'wiry' than that of the QM, but I find their recording of Op. 20 to be excellent. They pay very fine attention to the detail in these great works.


Ever since I've joined TC, I find it difficult to come up with the funds to pay my monthly mortgage. Never had trouble before that.

Meanwhile, what I like about QM is their spare use of vibrato. The Tokyo Quartet uses too much vibrato and it spoils what otherwise are some fine performances of the Opus 76.

Vibrato is great for Brahms and Mendelssohn, but should be used sparingly, IMO, in Haydn and Mozart.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Well, I guess a balance is important. Overdoing it might not quite fit with the conception of the music, but some vibrato is ok, imo. I've ordered the Amadeus Quartet recordings of Op. 76 recently and they do use some vibrato. But they're a very good ensemble and from the samples, their interpretations sounded very good.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, I guess a balance is important. Overdoing it might not quite fit with the conception of the music, but some vibrato is ok, imo. I've ordered the Amadeus Quartet recordings of Op. 76 recently and they do use some vibrato. But they're a very good ensemble and from the samples, their interpretations sounded very good.


Well then, have you heard the Tokyo op.76? You may like it.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Well then, have you heard the Tokyo op.76? You may like it.


No, not yet. Will have to listen to it sometime .


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> No, not yet. Will have to listen to it sometime .


I'm sure you have room for one more thick double CD jewel case.


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> I'm sure you have room for one more thick double CD jewel case.


Slimline, or Clumsyline?


----------



## KenOC

Haydn was a very practical guy, always with an eye toward sales. He wrote almost all of his major instrumental works to fit on a single side of an LP.


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Slimline, or Clumsyline?


It's an old set, so inconvenient-line.


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> Well then, have you heard the Tokyo op.76? You may like it.


Legendary, and rightly so. This beloved set was recorded in beautiful autumnal analogue (1978/9), in CBS 30th St. Studios NYC.:tiphat:


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

KenOC said:


> Haydn was a very practical guy, always with an eye toward sales. He wrote almost all of his major instrumental works to fit on a single side of an LP.


One of the few composers who could combine practicality with genius .


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Legendary, and rightly so. This beloved set was recorded in beautiful autumnal analogue (1978/9), in CBS 30th St. Studios NYC.:tiphat:


I find many analogues to have better sound than the current sterile digital norm.

Listen to the old Brahms First Symphony with Charles Munch conducting the Boston Symphony from the late 1950's. The sound is glorious.


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> I find many analogues to have better sound than the current sterile digital norm.
> 
> Listen to the old Brahms First Symphony with Charles Munch conducting the Boston Symphony from the late 1950's. The sound is glorious.


YUP, It's the engineering, not DDD or ADD that's the thing.


----------



## hpowders

Itullian said:


> YUP, It's the engineering, not DDD or ADD that's the thing.


I bet the old Charles Munch/ Boston Symphony recording of Saint-Saens Organ Symphony would put to shame any recent recording of it.


----------



## Vaneyes

Itullian said:


> YUP, It's the engineering, not DDD or ADD that's the thing.


Lotsa LP to CD transfers in the 80's seemed to get screwed up, for whatever reasons. Penguin Classics commented regularly on what made it over from LP in relatively good shape.

New DDD recordings at about 1991 started sounding much better to me.

Pardon the off-topic blurb. :tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> I bet the old Charles Munch/ Boston Symphony recording of Saint-Saens Organ Symphony would put to shame any recent recording of it.


The hybrid recs did a good job on some of his things. :tiphat:


----------



## shangoyal

Just listened to the Op. 20 quartets again and I am in awe of the great man.


----------



## hpowders

Yes. He was awesome. One of the pithiest of the great composers.
He could say in four minutes, what some composers couldn't do in seventy five.


----------



## Jos

hpowders said:


> Ever since I've joined TC, I find it difficult to come up with the funds to pay my monthly mortgage. Never had trouble before that.
> 
> Meanwhile, what I like about QM is their spare use of vibrato. The Tokyo Quartet uses too much vibrato and it spoils what otherwise are some fine performances of the Opus 76.
> 
> Vibrato is great for Brahms and Mendelssohn, but should be used sparingly, IMO, in Haydn and Mozart.


On the vinyl-edition you get both Haydn and Brahms. And given the costs of 2nd hand vinyl there is little chance of getting evicted from your house due to missed payments 
From the wonderful "debut" series from DGG.

View attachment 41521


Cheers,
Jos


----------



## hpowders

Jos said:


> On the vinyl-edition you get both Haydn and Brahms. And given the costs of 2nd hand vinyl there is little chance of getting evicted from your house due to missed payments
> From the wonderful "debut" series from DGG.
> 
> View attachment 41521
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Jos


I sadly no longer have the capacity to play vinyl. I gave away TONS of LP's at one time. I was moving out and they were sooooo heavy!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> View attachment 41517
> 
> 
> Yes. He was awesome. One of the pithiest of the great composers.
> He could say in four minutes, what some composers couldn't do in seventy five.


Indeed - Haydn's music is a constantly shifting universe. An amazing composer.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> I sadly no longer have the capacity to play vinyl. I gave away TONS of LP's at one time. I was moving out and they were sooooo heavy!


Serves you right for saving money by not paying for a removal firm and doing just one trip in your Porsche. Get some money spent, Pal - what are you doing? Papering the walls in 100 dollar bills? :lol:


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

shangoyal said:


> Just listened to the Op. 20 quartets again and I am in awe of the great man.


Which ensemble was interpreting?


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> Serves you right for saving money by not paying for a removal firm and doing just one trip in your Porsche. Get some money spent, Pal - what are you doing? Papering the walls in 100 dollar bills? :lol:


I've spent more in CD's than the Porsche cost me.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

hpowders said:


> I've spent more in CD's than the Porsche cost me.


Then you need a better Porsche.


----------



## Morimur

Vinyl is so damn inconvenient; it takes up way too much space and it decays rather easily. Besides, CD/digital does a more accurate job of reproducing the original musical signal.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Vinyl is so damn inconvenient; it takes up way too much space and it decays rather easily. Besides, CD/digital does a more accurate job of reproducing the original musical signal.


It depends on the quality and precision balancing of the toning arm, the cartridge, and the turn table. The best sound I've ever heard has actually been on records with the amp, pre-amp, D/A converter, cables, connects, and the room _set up the right way_. . .

And I've heard analogue CD's that blow away digital ones; the mid-seventies Decca re-recording of _Ben Hur _with Miklos Rosza and the Royal Philharmonic being a perfect case in point.

-- So fundamentally, it isn't a question of analogue versus digital; or even records versus cd's; but rather the talents of the sound engineer in setting up the initial recording setting and of course how you set up your equipment at home when you listen to music.


----------



## shangoyal

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Which ensemble was interpreting?


The Aeolian Quartet.


----------



## Jos

hpowders said:


> I've spent more in CD's than the Porsche cost me.


sell the Porsche and get one of those : http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/ . Should be possible with closed wallets (is that an expression in America?) 

The law of diminishing returns in optima forma. For the turntable I mean !!

Cheers,
Jos


----------



## Blake

I'm looking on scooping up a complete set of his symphonies. Does anyone know of a better set than Dorati's? Or is that still the preferred choice?


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> I'm looking on scooping up a complete set of his symphonies. Does anyone know of a better set than Dorati's? Or is that still the preferred choice?


There are others, usually period performances though, Adam Fischer comes to mind, but Dorati is probably the safest mainstream bet.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> There are others, usually period performances though, Adam Fischer comes to mind, but Dorati is probably the safest mainstream bet.


Thanks, hp. From the examples I've heard it sounds great. I pulled the trigger. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> Thanks, hp. From the examples I've heard it sounds great. I pulled the trigger. :tiphat:


As you probably already know, Vesuvius (why anyone would name their kid Vesuvius, I'll never know), not all these symphonies are masterpieces.

It is fun though to work one's way up to the ones that are.

Enjoy!


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

hpowders said:


> As you probably already know, Vesuvius (why anyone would name their kid Vesuvius, I'll never know), not all these symphonies are masterpieces.
> 
> It is fun though to work one's way up to the ones that are.
> 
> Enjoy!


Ah that's easy peasy as an eruption led to Vesuvius


----------



## hpowders

He may be the first Pompeiian we've had on TC.


----------



## Blake

I certainly never got picked on... anywhere, anytime. I'd utter my name and people would run to the hills. Consequently, not very many friends...


----------



## hpowders

....could be due to your lava-iscious appetite.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> ....could be due to your lava-iscious appetite.


I'll need one now that I'm going to try and make it through Haydn's complete symphony cycle with Dorati. Starting with the London Symphonies and it's superb thus far.


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> I'll need one now that I'm going to try and make it through Haydn's complete symphony cycle with Dorati. Starting with the London Symphonies and it's superb thus far.


Oh. So you are working yourself backwards. It's definitely a bargain, these days.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> Oh. So you are working yourself backwards. It's definitely a bargain, these days.


I'll be going back to the beginning after. I just had an urge to hear the London. And yea, it's a great bargain.


----------



## hpowders

I would have probably done the same thing. First the London, then #88, then #82-87 (Paris Symphonies).


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> I would have probably done the same thing. First the London, then #88, then #82-87 (Paris Symphonies).


For sure. I was also jamming Pinnock's take on 'Sturm und Drang' and it was rather amazing. Check it out if you haven't.


----------



## Blake

Pretty cool documentary about Haydn from Harmonia Mundi:


----------



## KenOC

Vesuvius said:


> Pretty cool documentary about Haydn from Harmonia Mundi:


Thanks Vesuvius! Watching this now. It seems to be a very high-class and interesting production.


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> For sure. I was also jamming Pinnock's take on 'Sturm und Drang' and it was rather amazing. Check it out if you haven't.


Yes. I have the Pinnock. Thanks.


----------



## scratchgolf

I'm currently downloading the Complete Haydn Symphonies/Dorati. I'm not sure what's going to take longer. Downloading the 33 discs or listening to them.

For good measure, I'm also downloading a Complete Mozart Symphony set which was advertised at the bottom of the Haydn page for a mere $5.99 . I figure, if my computer is going to be busy downloading Haydn for the next 7 years, what's 3 more years gonna hurt?


----------



## Blake

scratchgolf said:


> I'm currently downloading the Complete Haydn Symphonies/Dorati. I'm not sure what's going to take longer. Downloading the 33 discs or listening to them.
> 
> For good measure, I'm also downloading a Complete Mozart Symphony set which was advertised at the bottom of the Haydn page for a mere $5.99 . I figure, if my computer is going to be busy downloading Haydn for the next 7 years, what's 3 more years gonna hurt?


Haha, it took me several hours for the Dorati download, but what I have listened to so far has been excellent. I don't think you'll regret the effort.


----------



## scratchgolf

I finally completed my Haydn download, TODAY!!!! Geez, thing froze my Mac like 15 times and started giving me "some files did not download" errors. Then I ended up with triplicates of certain movements while missing others. I finally had to check the source files and mix and match until all 33 discs were complete and accounted for. Thankfully, nobody else wrote 12,349 symphonies so I think I'm good moving forward.

(Insert "It's Haydn. Who's gonna notice a few missing movements?" joke here)


----------



## Blake

Now you can deservingly enjoy. Hah!

I'm on disc 11 and it's been a great ride so far.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

On this day, 205 years ago, F. J. Haydn passed away. Honour be to him and to the great gifts he left for us to value and enjoy.


----------



## hpowders

I played the Theresienmesse a few hours ago to honor His memory.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> On this day, 205 years ago, F. J. Haydn passed away. Honour be to him and to the great gifts he left for us to value and enjoy.


His music today, 250 years later, is just as fresh and delightful today as it must have been back then.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> I played the Theresienmesse a few hours ago to honor His memory.


What an awesome mass. A great way to preserve Haydn's memory! Maybe I'll listen to he Heiligmesse today, it's so tuneful, joyous and rhythmatic.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> His music today, 250 years later, is just as fresh and delightful today as it must have been back then.


For sure, and that's the secret of his impeccable craftsmanship. It's pure quality, it can never be beat.

Here a few interesting videos with famous interpreters of Haydn:

John McCabe:
on Haydn's piano sonatas:




on Haydn:





Christopher Hogwood (on Peter Salomon's transcription of Haydn's symphony 104 for Flute Quintet and Pianoforte):


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> What an awesome mass. A great way to preserve Haydn's memory! Maybe I'll listen to he Heiligmesse today, it's so tuneful, joyous and rhythmatic.


I just played the Heiligmesse with Rilling. Another joyous masterpiece!


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> For sure, and that's the secret of his impeccable craftsmanship. It's pure quality, it can never be beat.
> 
> Here a few interesting videos with famous interpreters of Haydn:
> 
> John McCabe:
> on Haydn's piano sonatas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on Haydn:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christopher Hogwood (on Peter Salomon's transcription of Haydn's symphony 104 for Flute Quintet and Pianoforte):


Thanks for all this!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Thanks for all this!


always welcome!


----------



## Vaneyes

How Haydn lost his head, and two heads are better than one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn's_head


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Vaneyes said:


> How Haydn lost his head, and two heads are better than one.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn's_head


---------------------------------------


----------



## hpowders

He seemed to be very well-adjusted.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> He seemed to be very well-adjusted.


That he was. However, I would not call Haydn a conformist - if he would've been only that, his music wouldn't have been as interesting. I think he achieved a perfect balance of innovation and meeting the audience's expectations.


----------



## hpowders

He was innovative, sure, but within an acceptable, conformable framework.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> He was innovative, sure, but within an acceptable, conformable framework.


Innovation means stepping outside the framework.


----------



## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> Innovation means stepping outside the framework.


Not necessarily. Haydn did plenty of innovating within sonata form.
Listen to the slow movement of Symphony #97 in C Major. In a section of that movement, he has the violins playing practically on the necks of their instruments, creating a uniquely nasal sound, all within the framework of sonata form. Believe me, such a thing must have caused a sensation on first hearing, yet all within the confines of conservative sonata form.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> Not necessarily. Haydn did plenty of innovating within sonata form.
> Listen to the slow movement of Symphony #97 in C Major. In a section of that movement, he has the violins playing practically on the necks of their instruments, creating a uniquely nasal sound, all within the framework of sonata form. Believe me, such a thing must have caused a sensation on first hearing, yet all within the confines of conservative sonata form.


Hmm, I suppose. But then it wouldn't be in the framework that it was... because it has been innovated. But I digress. I don't want to play semantics here. I see what you're saying.


----------



## satoru

Sonata form itself, started by CPE Bach, was established by Haydn (and Mozart). A quote from the Wiki page on the history of sonata form: "He[Haydn] can also be thought of as the father of the sonata form as a means of structuring works". I think Haydn exploited sonata form extensively for efficient use of motifs to fulfill requests from his employer in short time frame. The Wiki page farther goes as follows, on regard of some components of sonata form:

"It is predominantly Haydn who created the transition to the development and the transition to the recapitulation, as moments of supreme tension and dramatic interest. It is also Haydn who enabled a more expansive contour for works, by making every aspect of the harmony of a work implicit in its main theme. This is no small innovation, in that it creates a homophonic analog to the polyphonic fugue - a seed of potential from which the composer could later germinate a range of different effects."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sonata_form

As you can see, it is after Haydn where the sonata form became conservative, as so many composers followed his route, just another display of Haydn's genius. Haydn casts a long shadow over the composers after him in many aspects and sonata form is just one of them.


----------



## hpowders

Each movement of Haydn's London symphonies follows a set formula of sonata form. Given the opening theme of each movement, I can simply follow the formula as if it were a recipe and complete each movement; except I can't; I simply don't have Haydn's genius. But he can't post like I can, so we're even.


----------



## shangoyal

The sonata form is definitely one of the most exciting inventions in all of music - maybe even the most exciting. Kudos to Papa Haydn!


----------



## Blake

I don't think it would be out of line to say that he was the most profoundly innovative composer of all time.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Art and the Seven Last Words (Navarra Quartet):


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn - Op. 17 No. 4 in C minor (very good performance, imo):






I think these guys should record the whole set.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

--------------------------


----------



## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> --------------------------


Sigh...what might have been.


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Sigh...what might have been.


-------------------------------------------------
The final bars of the "Farewell" Symphony?


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Haha, the post was about the Larghetto movement of Sonata Hob. 16/47:






What other interpretations do you like?

This Adagio is very good too, quite experimental:


----------



## joen_cph

*Your 5 favourite Haydn works*, anyone?


----------



## Alypius

joen_cph said:


> *Your 5 favourite Haydn works*, anyone?


Very difficult since I enjoy many of his symphonies and string quartets and piano sonatas.

1. The Creation (_Die Schöpfung_) (1796-1798)
2. Symphony #104 in D (1791) 
(if one has to single out only one of the whole "London" symphonies, #93-104)
3. String Quartets (6), op. 20 (1772) (esp. no. 2 and 4) 
(I list 6 because he published these as a group).
4. String Quartets (6), op. 76 (1797) (esp. no. 2 'Quinten' and 4 'Sunrise')
5. Piano Sonata in B minor, Hob. XVI:32 
(but that's but one of dozen or so great ones)


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Alypius said:


> Very difficult since I enjoy many of his symphonies and string quartets and piano sonatas.
> 
> 1. The Creation (_Die Schöpfung_) (1796-1798)
> 2. Symphony #104 in D (1791)
> (if one has to single out only one of the whole "London" symphonies, #93-104)
> 3. String Quartets (6), op. 20 (1772) (esp. no. 2 and 4)
> (I list 6 because he published these as a group).
> 4. String Quartets (6), op. 76 (1797) (esp. no. 2 'Quinten' and 4 'Sunrise')
> 5. Piano Sonata in B minor, Hob. XVI:32
> (but that's but one of dozen or so great ones)


I like your list, Alypius. My list:

1) The Creation
2) St. Theresia Mass
3) String Quartets Op. 77 (but it's hard to decide, there are so many good ones)
4) The Seasons
5) Symphony No. 104

Then again, I could also have put Symphony 104 way at the top. Decisions are hard with Haydn, I love all of these works.

Honourable mentions: Piano Sonata No. 59 in E-Flat Major, Piano Trio No. 24 in D Major.


----------



## joen_cph

I´m interested in these answers and inputs, since - in spite of having most of Haydn´s works - I have so far only really connected quite rarely with his music, but I´ll be giving the mentioned pieces an extra hearing. I´d like to get a clearer picture myself. Besides, it is interesting to see people´s taste in this regard. So far, I´m pretty sure I´d include the Nelson Mass and probably The Creation.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

joen_cph said:


> I´m interested in these answers and inputs, since - in spite of having most of Haydn´s works - I have so far only really connected quite rarely with his music, but I´ll be giving the mentioned pieces an extra hearing. I´d like to get a clearer picture myself. Besides, it is interesting to see people´s taste in this regard. So far, I´m pretty sure I´d include the Nelson Mass and probably The Creation.


Well, it's subjective - one shouldn't have to 'force' oneself to like something. Haydn has different strengths as a composer - dynamic shifts, unpredictable twists, conversational elements, humour, experimentation with texture and strucutre, accessible melodies - those would probably be his strengths. His music has a warm, calming and optimistic sound - it can also pump you up quite a bit because of its sturdy and sometimes driving rhythms.


----------



## hpowders

I grew into Haydn. Always thought he was a second-rate Mozart when I was a kid. Shows how dumb I was as a kid.


----------



## Cheyenne

hpowders said:


> I grew into Haydn. Always thought he was a second-rate Mozart when I was a kid. Shows how dumb I was as a kid.


That's a very common way of thinking. I'd say their temperaments are very different, which results in very different music: Mozart has more of serenity, whereas Haydn has more of a joyous drive. That's what always separated them from each other for me, in terms of non-musical elements.


----------



## hpowders

One can see the Haydn-Beethoven link-boisterous, peasant-like humorous music. I don't see any Mozart-Beethoven link.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Well, I can see the Mozart-Beethoven link, but in terms of how Beethoven composed, I think he was a bit closer to Haydn-style composition.


----------



## satoru

joen_cph said:


> *Your 5 favourite Haydn works*, anyone?


String Quartets, Op 20 (can I list these as one??)
London Symphonies, all 12 of them
String Quartets, Op 76
The Creation
The Seasons

Oops, I hit 5 already... No room for Paris symphonies, String quartets op 75, piano concerto in D, piano sonatas, piano trios, early symphonies? Among those, Op 20 is especially dear to me. Oh, those fugues! I collected 10 different performance of Op 20 and I like all of them. Somehow, I never get bored with any...


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

satoru said:


> String Quartets, Op 20 (can I list these as one??)
> London Symphonies, all 12 of them
> String Quartets, Op 76
> The Creation
> The Seasons
> 
> Oops, I hit 5 already... No room for Paris symphonies, String quartets op 75, piano concerto in D, piano sonatas, piano trios, early symphonies? Among those, Op 20 is especially dear to me. Oh, those fugues! I collected 10 different performance of Op 20 and I like all of them. Somehow, I never get bored with any...


Good to see someone listing the Seasons. Truly a masterpiece and one of Haydn's best works, imo. I've been listening to John Eliot Gardiner's rendition of late and he truly makes it sparkle and blaze. The details in the orchestration come through with period performance, although performances with modern instruments can stress the more romantic leanings of some of the overtures to the respective Seasons.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Good to see someone listing the Seasons. Truly a masterpiece and one of Haydn's best works, imo. I've been listening to John Eliot Gardiner's rendition of late and he truly makes it sparkle and blaze. The details in the orchestration come through with period performance, although performances with modern instruments can stress the more romantic leanings of some of the overtures to the respective Seasons.


I have the Colin Davis performance and was disappointed with The Seasons after immersing myself in The Creation.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> I have the Colin Davis performance and was disappointed with The Seasons after immersing myself in The Creation.


I actually like some aspects of the Seasons more than the Creation. The Seasons seems a bit more varied and has more atmospheric variety. If you love the Creation, I'm surprised that the Seasons doesn't appeal to you. Can you describe why? Imo, the Sunrise in the Seasons is more impressive than the one in the Creation - with glorious choral work following it.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I actually like some aspects of the Seasons more than the Creation. The Seasons seems a bit more varied and has more atmospheric variety. If you love the Creation, I'm surprised that the Seasons doesn't appeal to you. Can you describe why? Imo, the Sunrise in the Seasons is more impressive than the one in the Creation - with glorious choral work following it.


Maybe it's the Davis performance?


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Maybe it's the Davis performance?


Maybe that's it - try the René Jacobs one, so far the reviews have been very good. The piece is awesome - filled with Haydn's signature wit, his genius for describing nature using the orchestra and containing some of his more emotional and profound sides - I really enjoy the overture to Winter, for example. It reminds me of the great Intermezzo for winds Haydn later added to the Seven Last Words.


----------



## joen_cph

satoru said:


> String Quartets, Op 20 (can I list these as one??)
> London Symphonies, all 12 of them
> String Quartets, Op 76
> The Creation
> The Seasons
> 
> Oops, I hit 5 already... No room for Paris symphonies, String quartets op 75, piano concerto in D, piano sonatas, piano trios, early symphonies? Among those, Op 20 is especially dear to me. Oh, those fugues! I collected 10 different performance of Op 20 and I like all of them. Somehow, I never get bored with any...


I´ll be taking a listen to the op.20 set this weekend. Overall, I tend to like Haydn when he is in a somewhat "wild" mood ;-); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op._20_(Haydn)


----------



## Guest

I agree - try Jacobs' recording of the Seasons. I enjoy it greatly, but still prefer the Creation. Gardiner's recording introduced me to that masterpiece, but of late I much prefer the Spering recording on Naxos. These oratorios are among Haydn's greatest works, along with his masses. So many talk of his symphonies and string quartets, and rightly so, but part of Haydn's greatness was the breadth of his works, not just the depth. Yes, he wrote over 100 symphonies, with even some of his earliest being incredibly good, but he could also write an incredible oratorio and mass.


----------



## hpowders

DrMike said:


> I agree - try Jacobs' recording of the Seasons. I enjoy it greatly, but still prefer the Creation. Gardiner's recording introduced me to that masterpiece, but of late I much prefer the Spering recording on Naxos. These oratorios are among Haydn's greatest works, along with his masses. So many talk of his symphonies and string quartets, and rightly so, but part of Haydn's greatness was the breadth of his works, not just the depth. Yes, he wrote over 100 symphonies, with even some of his earliest being incredibly good, but he could also write an incredible oratorio and mass.





HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Maybe that's it - try the René Jacobs one, so far the reviews have been very good. The piece is awesome - filled with Haydn's signature wit, his genius for describing nature using the orchestra and containing some of his more emotional and profound sides - I really enjoy the overture to Winter, for example. It reminds me of the great Intermezzo for winds Haydn later added to the Seven Last Words.


Okay. Thanks, guys! I will!


----------



## Vaneyes

5 favorite Haydn recs. is tough, but today I'll go with these.:tiphat:

1. String Quartets, Op. 20 w. Mosaiques (naive, rec.1990 - '92)
2. PC 11, w. Argerich/London Sinfonietta (EMI, rec.1983)
3. Piano Trios 28 - 31, w. BAT (Philips, rec.1971)
4. Late Piano Sonatas, w. GG (Sony, rec.1980/1)
5. Piano Sonatas, w. Ts'ong (Meridian, rec.2009)


----------



## LarryShone

Thank you Haydn for these. This is the disk that got me 'into' Haydn. One of my oldest CDs, it is superb!


----------



## hpowders

LarryShone said:


> Thank you Haydn for these. This is the disk that got me 'into' Haydn. One of my oldest CDs, it is superb!
> 
> View attachment 50020


Next, of you haven't already done so, get the Pinnock Sturm & Drang Symphonie-a terrific 6 CD set!!!


----------



## LarryShone

hpowders said:


> Next, of you haven't already done so, get the Pinnock Sturm & Drang Symphonie-a terrific 6 CD set!!!


What number symphonies are those? I have quite a few haydn symphonies, mostly the later ones. 
For me he us the genius of the symphony!


----------



## LarryShone

Ah perchance you mean this set:

http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-the-sturm-und-drang-symphonies-mw0001418467


----------



## LarryShone

I quite fancy this recent disk. It got a good review in International Piano Magazine


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

LarryShone said:


> I quite fancy this recent disk. It got a good review in International Piano Magazine


Emanuel Ax's Haydn piano concertos are also very good. Here's the set, also containing a good number and variety of Haydn's piano sonatas:









Ax is a very good Haydn interpreter, imo.


----------



## satoru

LarryShone said:


> I quite fancy this recent disk. It got a good review in International Piano Magazine]


Hamelin's Piano Sonatas are good, too. Worth getting it. To my own opinion, Hamelin is the one of the best living pianist.









Michelangeli has a nice recording of Haydn, couple with Rachmaninov's No. 4 (your favorite!) and Ravel's. His Rachmaninov is rated as one of the best.


----------



## LarryShone

satoru said:


> Hamelin's Piano Sonatas are good, too. Worth getting it. To my own opinion, Hamelin is the one of the best living pianist.
> 
> View attachment 50034
> 
> 
> Michelangeli has a nice recording of Haydn, couple with Rachmaninov's No. 4 (your favorite!) and Ravel's. His Rachmaninov is rated as one of the best.
> 
> View attachment 50036


It might seem funny but I dont like to mix different eras like that on a disk-Haydn and Rachmaninov, Vivaldi and Schumann etc.


----------



## satoru

LarryShone said:


> It might seem funny but I dont like to mix different eras like that on a disk-Haydn and Rachmaninov, Vivaldi and Schumann etc.


I see your point. Well, maybe I should have noted that the transition from Rachmaninov to Haydn is quite brutal. I separate those two pieces in different playlist in iTunes to avoid it. Regardless, Michelangeli's Rachmaninov is worth a moment to listen to.


----------



## LarryShone

I doubt I could tell one pianist from another. Its not that Im a beginner to classical (hardly!) Its just that I've had to make do with whatever disk I can get over the years.


----------



## joen_cph

I´m doing a good deal of regular Haydn listening these days. Admitting that a Top-5 list of hist works is too restricted (cf. earlier request of mine), a Top-10 seems more reasonable.

Currently, I´m pretty sure that these works would be on my list:

- _Nelson Mass_
- _String Quartets op.77_ /Borodin4 (I tried the op.22 ones, but I´ve got the Buchberger set, which is a bit distant in sound and seems slightly phlegmatic at times)
- _Piano Sonata no.62_ (Hob.HVII-52)/Kissin (a superb recording, accentuating the Beethoven traits of the piece)
- _Symphony no.22_,_ The Philosopher_. Especially due to the early Marriner recording, more fitting for the "Wagnerian" broadness of the first movement ;-).


----------



## LarryShone

I need more Haydn exposure. Ive only really heard his symphonies (I have about 8 disks of his Symphonies!)


----------



## hpowders

The Haydn piano trios are nice too. Then there are the string quartets...


----------



## satoru

hpowders said:


> The Haydn piano trios are nice too. Then there are the string quartets...


In his piano trios, violin and piano often play in unison, to reinforce was-not-so-loud-then pianoforte. For this reason, I find recordings by historical instruments make more sense. Of course, there are tons superb performances on modern instruments, but I find following recordings particularly fun to listen to. Quatuor Mosaiques violin (Höbarth) and cello (Coin) is joined by a pianist (Cohen). Lively performances.


----------



## Alypius

satoru said:


> In his piano trios, violin and piano often play in unison, to reinforce was-not-so-loud-then pianoforte. For this reason, I find recordings by historical instruments make more sense. Of course, there are tons superb performances on modern instruments, but I find following recordings particularly fun to listen to. Quatuor Mosaiques violin (Höbarth) and cello (Coin) is joined by a pianist (Cohen). Lively performances.
> 
> View attachment 50556
> View attachment 50557
> View attachment 50559
> View attachment 50558


satoru, I don't have those, and I thoroughly enjoy the Quatuor Mosaiques. You list what looks like four volumes. However, the cover on the first one looks a little different (a later date?). It also matches a two-disc set (according to Amazon), which has:
*Keyboard Trio in A major, H. 15/18
*Keyboard Trio in G minor, H. 15/19
*Keyboard Trio in B flat major, H. 15/20
*Keyboard Trio in C major, H. 15/21
*Keyboard Trio in E flat major, H. 15/22
*Keyboard Trio in D minor, H. 15/23
Is the first one a "best of"? Or is it a two-disc vol. 1? The other volumes like they are out of print. Can you fill in what is listed for the contents of those volumes 2, 3 and 4? Thanks.


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## hpowders

I on the other hand find the Quatuor Mosaiques too wiry. Their blended sound to these ears is "unattractive".


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> I on the other hand find the Quatuor Mosaiques too wiry. Their blended sound to these ears is "unattractive".


I'm not that fond of HIP quartets in Haydn either. Modern instruments are better for me. But I prefer HIP performances of the early Beethoven quartets. Go figure!


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## LarryShone

There's that acronym again HIP! What is HIP?


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## psu

Historically informed performance. What used to be called original or authentic instruments.


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## LarryShone

psu said:


> Historically informed performance. What used to be called original or authentic instruments.


Ah. Well its HIP to be Square I suppose...
I do have a couple of mozart disks on mozart's own instruments. It certainly sounds different!


----------



## hpowders

LarryShone said:


> There's that acronym again HIP! What is HIP?


*H*istorically *I*nformed *P*erformance.


----------



## hpowders

Whenever I use HIP, it means fortepiano or harpsichord instead of a Steinway grand, natural horn vs modern French horn, gut strings vs modern steel strings.

I prefer HIP over modern performances of Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.


----------



## LarryShone

hpowders said:


> Whenever I use HIP, it means fortepiano or harpsichord instead of a Steinway grand, natural horn vs modern French horn, gut strings vs modern steel strings.
> 
> I prefer HIP over modern performances of Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.


My Haydn post earlier, the 3 early symphonies, are recorded with original instruments. I like the sound actually. Depends on the work and composer I suppose. I like to hear Beethoven piano sonatas on a modern grand, but for early pieces such as the said symphonies, or early keyboard works, Bach , Vivaldi etc, it seems right to have them performed on original instruments.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

joen_cph said:


> I´m doing a good deal of regular Haydn listening these days. Admitting that a Top-5 list of hist works is too restricted (cf. earlier request of mine), a Top-10 seems more reasonable.
> 
> Currently, I´m pretty sure that these works would be on my list:
> 
> - _Nelson Mass_
> - _String Quartets op.77_ /Borodin4 (I tried the op.22 ones, but I´ve got the Buchberger set, which is a bit distant in sound and seems slightly phlegmatic at times)
> - _Piano Sonata no.62_ (Hob.HVII-52)/Kissin (a superb recording, accentuating the Beethoven traits of the piece)
> - _Symphony no.22_,_ The Philosopher_. Especially due to the early Marriner recording, more fitting for the "Wagnerian" broadness of the first movement ;-).


Do you mean Op. 33 by the Buchberger Quartet? I actually find their recording to pack a nice punch, they bring out the liveliness and energy of the pieces, imo. Even though the expanded structure of Sonata 62 points towards Beethoven, I think it might be misleading to view it as a 'Beethoven' piece - the humour in the 1st movement, with the sudden 'hitting over the head' of the forte or the musical-clock type melody, is typical Haydnesque wit. I think Haydn should be listened to for his own, unique voice - his way of greatness was different than Beethoven's.


----------



## hpowders

LarryShone said:


> My Haydn post earlier, the 3 early symphonies, are recorded with original instruments. I like the sound actually. Depends on the work and composer I suppose. I like to hear Beethoven piano sonatas on a modern grand, but for early pieces such as the said symphonies, or early keyboard works, Bach , Vivaldi etc, it seems right to have them performed on original instruments.


I like fortepiano and harpsichord over piano-HIP all the way.
However for Haydn string quartets, I find the gut strings in HIP too wiry and unpleasant to listen to. So there I prefer the Emerson and Tokyo Quartet performances.
I also prefer the modern French horn over the HIP natural horn. The former makes a smoother more pleasant sound and is in tune most of the time-easier to listen to.


----------



## joen_cph

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Do you mean Op. 33 by the Buchberger Quartet? I actually find their recording to pack a nice punch, they bring out the liveliness and energy of the pieces, imo. Even though the expanded structure of Sonata 62 points towards Beethoven, I think it might be misleading to view it as a 'Beethoven' piece - the humour in the 1st movement, with the sudden 'hitting over the head' of the forte or the musical-clock type melody, is typical Haydnesque wit. I think Haydn should be listened to for his own, unique voice - his way of greatness was different than Beethoven's.


I like the Borodin4´s way with op.77, but sorry, I meant Buchberger in op.20. Still have to listen to op.33.

My associations with Beethoven and Wagner are of course superficial, but I prefer Haydn with a "romantic" and dramatic touch. No HIP for me. Kissin plays the piece in a very masculine way, and I was thinking more of early Beethoven sonatas.


----------



## satoru

Alypius said:


> satoru, I don't have those, and I thoroughly enjoy the Quatuor Mosaiques. You list what looks like four volumes. However, the cover on the first one looks a little different (a later date?). It also matches a two-disc set (according to Amazon), which has:
> *Keyboard Trio in A major, H. 15/18
> *Keyboard Trio in G minor, H. 15/19
> *Keyboard Trio in B flat major, H. 15/20
> *Keyboard Trio in C major, H. 15/21
> *Keyboard Trio in E flat major, H. 15/22
> *Keyboard Trio in D minor, H. 15/23
> Is the first one a "best of"? Or is it a two-disc vol. 1? The other volumes like they are out of print. Can you fill in what is listed for the contents of those volumes 2, 3 and 4? Thanks.


I couldn't simply find an image for the vol 1 (and I don't own it, so I cannot scan). 
The First w/o vol #: Nos. 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37
Vol 2: Nos. 32, 33, 34 (discontinued, not on DHM site)
Vol 3: Nos. 35, 36, 37
Vol 4: Nos. 38, 39, 40

According to DHM site, others available are "Nos. 25-27" and "Nos. 43-45", strangely they are without any volume numbers. Sorry for the confusion!

Best,


----------



## Alypius

satoru said:


> I couldn't simply find an image for the vol 1 (and I don't own it, so I cannot scan).
> The First w/o vol #: Nos. 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37
> Vol 2: Nos. 32, 33, 34 (discontinued, not on DHM site)
> Vol 3: Nos. 35, 36, 37
> Vol 4: Nos. 38, 39, 40
> 
> According to DHM site, others available are "Nos. 25-27" and "Nos. 43-45", strangely they are without any volume numbers. Sorry for the confusion!
> 
> Best,


satoru, Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Wanted to get into the Haydn masses I haven't heard as of yet, and found this rendition of the Great Organ Mass:






So far, there's some excellent music in there, as always!


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## hpowders

Haven't heard that one yet.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Haven't heard that one yet.


I'm 'saving up' my Haydn - that's why I would never get a full symphony set - I want to collect those puppies bit by bit .


----------



## hpowders

Sad day. Christopher Hogwood died.


----------



## Haydn man

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I'm 'saving up' my Haydn - that's why I would never get a full symphony set - I want to collect those puppies bit by bit .


That will take you quite some time and was my original plan. Then I saw how cheap the landmark Dorati set now is and just couldn't resist


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## hpowders

If you want the best performances available, you will have to buy individual recordings.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn man said:


> That will take you quite some time and was my original plan. Then I saw how cheap the landmark Dorati set now is and just couldn't resist


So you went for it? And how would you rate the set?


----------



## clavichorder

Recently I listened to symphony 58. It has the quirkiest finale!


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## hpowders

You want quirky. Listen to some of the Scarlatti sonatas, one in particular is the most insane thing I have ever heard!!


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## clavichorder

hpowders said:


> You want quirky. Listen to some of the Scarlatti sonatas, one in particular is the most insane thing I have ever heard!!


I listen to plenty of Scarlatti and am well aware that Haydn quirky and Scarlatti quirky are not the same thing. Sebastian de Albero is probably quirkier than Scarlatti yet, though not as smoothly constructed.

Symphony 58's finale is really weird though, I recommend it.

What is this sonata you speak of? I've heard many but there is a fair chance I don't know it.


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## hpowders

K.175, A minor. Totally nuts in the contrast between dissonance and tonic resolution.


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## clavichorder

hpowders said:


> K.175, A minor. Totally nuts in the contrast between dissonance and tonic resolution.


Oh yeah, I've heard that one, with those fat strange chords. Sounds great on a harpsichord.


----------



## hpowders

clavichorder said:


> Oh yeah, I've heard that one, with those fat strange chords. Sounds great on a harpsichord.


Knocks me out every time I hear it. Yes! Harpsichord is a must, preferably by a knockout virtuoso like Pierre Hantaï.


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## hpowders

Here it is in all its quirky glory. The Scarlatti Sonata in a minor k.175 performed by Pierre Hantaï.

Sorry Haydn. This is as quirkily brilliant as it gets!!!


----------



## Ingélou

hpowders said:


> Here it is in all its quirky glory. The Scarlatti Sonata in a minor k.175 performed by Pierre Hantaï.
> 
> Sorry Haydn. This is as quirkily brilliant as it gets!!!


Wow - what an inspired tantrum of a piece!


----------



## Rhombic

Since I will be playing Papa Haydn's 31st Symphony in the near future, I thought that I should pay him a visit in the composer guestbooks.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Here it is in all its quirky glory. The Scarlatti Sonata in a minor k.175 performed by Pierre Hantaï.
> 
> Sorry Haydn. This is as quirkily brilliant as it gets!!!


Well, it's not bad, but this is nowhere near Haydn's logical structuring and cohesion. Sorry, this is not on Haydn's level, imo.

Haydn's Sonata No. 47 in B minor:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Domenico Scarlatti is very good, but this is Haydn's guestbook after all .


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## hpowders

Ingélou said:


> Wow - what an inspired tantrum of a piece!


Have you ever? Scarlatti must have been drunk when he wrote that! Absolutely brilliant!!


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Domenico Scarlatti is very good, but this is Haydn's guestbook after all .


Haydn who?


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## hpowders

It's a witty pithy sonata. It's not meant to be anything more.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> It's a witty pithy sonata. It's not meant to be anything more.


Well, I know, no offence to Domenico, also a great composer. But I've still yet to listen to all of Haydn's sonatas - as I've said before, I'm 'saving up' my Haydn.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, I know, no offence to Domenico, also a great composer. But I've still yet to listen to all of Haydn's sonatas - as I've said before, I'm 'saving up' my Haydn.


Whenever a composer does more with less in a delightful way, I sit up and take notice.
Scarlatti's Sonatas are quite pithy and delightful. I don't listen to them often, but when I do, I can't seem to stop after just one.

Of course, Haydn was a more substantial and greater composer than Domenico.
However, it's nice to have both of them around.


----------



## Polyphemus

Delighted with this Haydn thread and a hearty welcome to Domenico both of whom I expect would delight in Vivaldi's Lute and Mandolin Concerti :lol::devil::tiphat:


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## hpowders

A lot of delightful music out there.


----------



## Funny

hpowders said:


> Have you ever? Scarlatti must have been drunk when he wrote that! Absolutely brilliant!!


Jesus! That thing's so dissonant I heard Charles Ives went back and inserted his name on it so he could've done it first!

Seriously, thanks for the tip on that - insanely head-banging quirkiness!


----------



## hpowders

Funny said:


> Jesus! That thing's so dissonant I heard Charles Ives went back and inserted his name on it so he could've done it first!
> 
> Seriously, thanks for the tip on that - insanely head-banging quirkiness!


Scarlatti must have been on something when he penned that sonata. Absolute madness!!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I'd praise his experimentation but, once again, criticize the lack of structure and cohesion in this piece. There's no sense of continuity in it. It seems like a bunch of random, jumbled ideas. Or maybe it's the performance? 

This is exactly the kind of criticism Haydn directed at many contemporaries - they jump from one idea to the next, without focusing on one main idea. A brilliant way to play with dissonance is shown in Haydn's symphony 104 - the way each movement has those slower, more thoughtful passages that contrast strongly with the rest of movements' music. I would classify Scarlatti's music, in this sonata, as a nice experiment in dissonance, but I think he lacked the kind of genius Haydn had for 'controlling' the listener's reaction and attention, which is so important for the aspect of 'wit' or 'quirkiness'. 

Scarlatti does a bit of runs in the major, then plows through some dissonances, then gets back to the major scales, etc. But where's the link, the progression - how does one thing lead on to the next? That's what I think is missing in the Scarlatti piece.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I'd praise his experimentation but, once again, criticize the lack of structure and cohesion in this piece. There's no sense of continuity in it. It seems like a bunch of random, jumbled ideas. Or maybe it's the performance?
> 
> This is exactly the kind of criticism Haydn directed at many contemporaries - they jump from one idea to the next, without focusing on one main idea. A brilliant way to play with dissonance is shown in Haydn's symphony 104 - the way each movement has those slower, more thoughtful passages that contrast strongly with the rest of movements' music. I would classify Scarlatti's music, in this sonata, as a nice experiment in dissonance, but I think he lacked the kind of genius Haydn had for 'controlling' the listener's reaction and attention, which is so important for the aspect of 'wit' or 'quirkiness'.
> 
> Scarlatti does a bit of runs in the major, then plows through some dissonances, then gets back to the major scales, etc. But where's the link, the progression - how does one thing lead on to the next? That's what I think is missing in the Scarlatti piece.


It's probably the performance. I chose it because it is the most aggressive one I know.
I have a terrific, less aggressive performance of it, but it's not on UTube so I can't share it.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> It's probably the performance. I chose it because it is the most aggressive one I know.
> I have a terrific, less aggressive performance of it, but it's not on UTube so I can't share it.


I see, well I'll try find another performance, maybe I'll warm a bit more to the piece.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Lecture on Haydn's wit:


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## hpowders

Lecture on Scarlatti's wit:

I couldn't find any.


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## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> Lecture on Scarlatti's wit:
> 
> I couldn't find any.


In the absence of Scarlatti wit how goes the the voyage of the good ship Boulez on the ocean of Mahler.

I've launched my own canoe to traverse the waters of Haitink's Vienna recordings of Bruckner symphonies 3, 4, 5 & 8. It was supposed to be a complete cycle but Philips disgracefully cut it short.


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> In the absence of Scarlatti wit how goes the the voyage of the good ship Boulez on the ocean of Mahler.
> 
> I've launched my own canoe to traverse the waters of Haitink's Vienna recordings of Bruckner symphonies 3, 4, 5 & 8. It was supposed to be a complete cycle but Philips disgracefully cut it short.


Thanks for asking! 

I am doing one symphony a day. Yesterday was Mahler 1. Today will be Mahler 2.

Unfortunately I am also having a new roof put over my head and all that banging makes it a bit hard to listen, but I will give it my best shot!


----------



## Polyphemus

Polyphemus said:


> In the absence of Scarlatti wit how goes the the voyage of the good ship Boulez on the ocean of Mahler.
> 
> I've launched my own canoe to traverse the waters of Haitink's Vienna recordings of Bruckner symphonies 3, 4, 5 & 8. It was supposed to be a complete cycle but Philips disgracefully cut it short.


Well the heavens do open (ducks as riposte of corny joke is hurled back across the pond). Good luck with the work and thanks for the welcome message.


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## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> Well the heavens do open (ducks as riposte of corny joke is hurled back across the pond). Good luck with the work and thanks for the welcome message.


Sure!

I just hate playing it extra loud to compete with the workers.


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## Polyphemus

The danger in that is that they may all be Mahlerians and stop work to listen. So have something really awful in reserve, just in case. i wont suggest anything as or definitions of awfulness may differ. (minimalism[ly])


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## Funny

In fairness, the Scarlatti is from an earlier era than Haydn, so we wouldn't expect it to hang together in a "classical" way. That said, it doesn't hang together like Bach either (J.S., anyway - C.P.E. could certainly be quirkily peripatetic). But having listened to it a dozen times or so and checked out different performances, it does have some motivic cohesion that isn't immediately apparent through all the attention-grabbing fireworks.

Speaking of Haydn and dissonance and looking back at the baroque, I'm reminded of the 2nd movement of Symphony 38, where Haydn plays with the baroque "echo" almost to the point of outright mockery. Then suddenly, in the middle of the movement, he throws in a gratuitous suspension chain of exquisitely elongated dissonances, again seeming to caricature baroque excesses. It's both transporting and funny, because thematically it seems to have nothing to do with anything else in the movement - unlike everything else, which is repeated and echoed over and over, it just suddenly appears and then disappears. So we're left to ask: Where's the link, the progression - how does one thing lead on to the next?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Funny said:


> In fairness, the Scarlatti is from an earlier era than Haydn, so we wouldn't expect it to hang together in a "classical" way. That said, it doesn't hang together like Bach either (J.S., anyway - C.P.E. could certainly be quirkily peripatetic). But having listened to it a dozen times or so and checked out different performances, it does have some motivic cohesion that isn't immediately apparent through all the attention-grabbing fireworks.
> 
> Speaking of Haydn and dissonance and looking back at the baroque, I'm reminded of the 2nd movement of Symphony 38, where Haydn plays with the baroque "echo" almost to the point of outright mockery. Then suddenly, in the middle of the movement, he throws in a gratuitous suspension chain of exquisitely elongated dissonances, again seeming to caricature baroque excesses. It's both transporting and funny, because thematically it seems to have nothing to do with anything else in the movement - unlike everything else, which is repeated and echoed over and over, it just suddenly appears and then disappears. So we're left to ask: Where's the link, the progression - how does one thing lead on to the next?


Yes, but that's part of Haydn's wit - 'setting up' normality, and then undermining it on purpose. When listening to Scarlatti's piece, there's no 'set up' - there are jumps from one idea to the next, without getting the listener as involved as in Haydn. Granted, Scarlatti was brilliant in his own way, but we were talking 'wit' here, and I think Haydn is quite difficult to 'beat' in that department.


----------



## hpowders

Funny said:


> In fairness, the Scarlatti is from an earlier era than Haydn, so we wouldn't expect it to hang together in a "classical" way. That said, it doesn't hang together like Bach either (J.S., anyway - C.P.E. could certainly be quirkily peripatetic). But having listened to it a dozen times or so and checked out different performances, it does have some motivic cohesion that isn't immediately apparent through all the attention-grabbing fireworks.
> 
> Speaking of Haydn and dissonance and looking back at the baroque, I'm reminded of the 2nd movement of Symphony 38, where Haydn plays with the baroque "echo" almost to the point of outright mockery. Then suddenly, in the middle of the movement, he throws in a gratuitous suspension chain of exquisitely elongated dissonances, again seeming to caricature baroque excesses. It's both transporting and funny, because thematically it seems to have nothing to do with anything else in the movement - unlike everything else, which is repeated and echoed over and over, it just suddenly appears and then disappears. So we're left to ask: Where's the link, the progression - how does one thing lead on to the next?


Corrrrrrect, of course! :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> The danger in that is that they may all be Mahlerians and stop work to listen. So have something really awful in reserve, just in case. i wont suggest anything as or definitions of awfulness may differ. (minimalism[ly])


Yeah. Just like I may win the $500 million Powerball drawing tonight.


----------



## senza sordino

I'm currently listening to the Haydn violin concerti, C major #1, A major #3, & G major (#4). I've played the G major myself, hacked my way through is more accurate. I might learn to play the C major in the future. I really like the A major, there are some nice themes. But I can't seem to find the sheet music for it, a good edition. It's not part of the conservatory curriculum here in Canada. The A major concerto is simply more difficult to track down. 

(#2 doesn't exist at all that I know of). 

Any ideas? Anyone know the history of these violin concerti by Haydn?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Lazar Berman plays Haydn:






He has an excellent touch, imo.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I was recently watching the documentary 'In Search of Haydn' on Youtube and Emanuel Ax made some interesting comments on Haydn's music. He's an excellent Haydn interpreter, imo, however I was very surprised that in the interview, he said he does not understand the humour aspect in Haydn. Instead, he referred to the element of surprise. I find it very strange that an interpreter at this level could overlook the aspect of humour in Haydn, which has been extensively researched by musicologists. I mean, just the opening 'How do you do?' phrase from Op. 33 No. 5, how is that not humour?


----------



## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I was recently watching the documentary 'In Search of Haydn' on Youtube and Emanuel Ax made some interesting comments on Haydn's music. He's an excellent Haydn interpreter, imo, however I was very surprised that in the interview, he said he does not understand the humour aspect in Haydn. Instead, he referred to the element of surprise. I find it very strange that an interpreter at this level could overlook the aspect of humour in Haydn, which has been extensively researched by musicologists. I mean, just the opening 'How do you do?' phrase from Op. 33 No. 5, how is that not humour?


Maybe Ax just chooses not to accentuate it in his interpretations (I had one or two of his Haydn long ago, so I don't recall much if any of them--he was replaced by quite a few.). Of the ones I have, the norm may be to not emphasize. Hamelin seems to be the most outgoing amongst my collective. Which may surprise those who often consider him to be a cold technician.:tiphat:


----------



## hreichgott

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I was recently watching the documentary 'In Search of Haydn' on Youtube and Emanuel Ax made some interesting comments on Haydn's music. He's an excellent Haydn interpreter, imo, however I was very surprised that in the interview, he said he does not understand the humour aspect in Haydn. Instead, he referred to the element of surprise. I find it very strange that an interpreter at this level could overlook the aspect of humour in Haydn, which has been extensively researched by musicologists. I mean, just the opening 'How do you do?' phrase from Op. 33 No. 5, how is that not humour?


Op 33 no 5 isn't that a Beethoven bagatelle?
Haydn's works are usually referred to by Hoboken number.
(Beethoven Op 33 does have some great humor in it.)

Also: I've seen other interviews with Ax and he is a very, very self-effacing man. He never owns up to how brilliant he is. Don't believe a word he says about not understanding something 

Also also: Here is Brendel playing Hob. XVI:49 with lovely humor.


----------



## KenOC

hreichgott said:


> Op 33 no 5 isn't that a Beethoven bagatelle?
> Haydn's works are usually referred to by Hoboken number.
> (Beethoven Op 33 does have some great humor in it.)


Haydn's quartets are usually referred to by opus number. Op. 33 No. 5 is, indeed, the "How do you do?" quartet, in G major.


----------



## hreichgott

Oh, the quartets, of course.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hreichgott said:


> Op 33 no 5 isn't that a Beethoven bagatelle?
> Haydn's works are usually referred to by Hoboken number.
> (Beethoven Op 33 does have some great humor in it.)
> 
> Also: I've seen other interviews with Ax and he is a very, very self-effacing man. He never owns up to how brilliant he is. Don't believe a word he says about not understanding something
> 
> Also also: Here is Brendel playing Hob. XVI:49 with lovely humor.


Well, I do like Emanuel Ax and his playing. It's just that I think he was in a responsible position when he was commenting, and in my opinion you can't simply just ignore this aspect of Haydn's music. I also don't think that the comment had anything to do with trying to me modest, I think it was his honest opinion. But what about the Finale of Sonata No. 60 with its weird stops, as if the player doesn't know how to continue? To me, it's sort of obvious that humour was important to Haydn. Just listen to the bassoon fart in Symphony 93, how can one deny this aspect?


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Vaneyes said:


> Maybe Ax just chooses not to accentuate it in his interpretations (I had one or two of his Haydn long ago, so I don't recall much if any of them--he was replaced by quite a few.). Of the ones I have, the norm may be to not emphasize. Hamelin seems to be the most outgoing amongst my collective. Which may surprise those who often consider him to be a cold technician.:tiphat:


Yes, Ax does have a very sober approach to the sonatas, but I do think that he's great at the lyrical parts - for eg. his Sonata No. 33 in C minor is one of the best I've heard. Maybe he looks at Haydn through a 'romantic' lens, that's a possibility.


----------



## hpowders

Get that man Ax a fortepiano. Then he would be forced to look at Haydn in a more appropriate way.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Get that man Ax a fortepiano. Then he would be forced to look at Haydn in a more appropriate way.


He does have one! He's sitting right in front of it and ignoring the humour. But his interpretation of the C minor Sonata makes up for it, hehe.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

This is excellent!






A 'song' made out of Haydn's Symphony No. 26.


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## hpowders

^^^ Funny!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> ^^^ Funny!


Yes, it's very well done. You can also tell this guy (or these guys?) love their Haydn.

I like the part where they sing 'heelp us, define the key' - almost the same music is part of Haydn's Storm scene in The Seasons, with the choir singing 'Hilf uns' (which is the same thing).


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## echo

this is cool in that fuguey way


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## HaydnBearstheClock

An excellent performance, imo:






I really like the 2nd movement - that moving contrapuntal bass-line is great and the movement doesn't lose any emotional content despite the 'learned' composition style.


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## starthrower

I heard Haydn's Violin Concerto No. 1 on the radio tonight. I thought it was great, and the violinist Christian Tetzlaff sounded fantastic!

Any opinions on this set? Lots of music here for 15 dollars.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner+Classics/2564695627


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## Blancrocher

I highly recommend this "Haydn Big Box" to anyone who does downloads. I've been getting acquainted with this set very slowly, but I've been pleased by the high quality of many of the performances. Mogens Woldike's performances of the London symphonies, for example, are becoming fast favorites.

It's currently priced at 99 cents.


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## hpowders

^^^Wow! What a Surprise!!!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

That's sick ... 99 cents for some of the greatest music on earth.


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## hpowders

Yeah. It's worth at least 2 euros!


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## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> Yeah. It's worth at least 2 euros!


I thought he wanted a discount, in which case he should become an Amazon Prime member.


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## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> I thought he wanted a discount, in which case he should become an Amazon Prime member.


I'm Po'ed at Amazon for raising their minimum to get free delivery. Damn greedy ********!!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Yeah. It's worth at least 2 euros!


It's worth the world man. His music is here to stay for a long time.


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## hpowders

So you say.......


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Blancrocher said:


> I thought he wanted a discount, in which case he should become an Amazon Prime member.


Amazon prime ... those guys recently tried stealing 49 Euros from me for nothing - they took them away, until I demanded they pay it back. What trickery.


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## hpowders

Spent the afternoon comparing HIP of Haydn's London Symphonies. Liked Ton Koopman and Amsterdam Baroque, except that they use 12 strings all together. I'm sure Haydn expected at least 50 for these grand efforts composed to be performed in London. Anyhow, they sounded fine, regardless, really highlighting the winds.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I've been delving into Haydn's sonatas - Vol. 3 & 4 by Rudolf Buchbinder. Highly recommended - his slow movements are very lyrical and he has an excellent sense for incorporating pauses. In the faster movements, he's rhythmical but doesn't lose the humourous sparkle.


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## Haydn man

hpowders said:


> Spent the afternoon comparing HIP of Haydn's London Symphonies. Liked Ton Koopman and Amsterdam Baroque, except that they use 12 strings all together. I'm sure Haydn expected at least 50 for these grand efforts composed to be performed in London. Anyhow, they sounded fine, regardless, really highlighting the winds.


I too have been doing similar as this HIP thing is new to me
I must say I was impressed by Mark Minkovski versions of the London Symphonies. Also tried Frans Bruggen but did not find them quite as fresh


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn man said:


> I too have been doing similar as this HIP thing is new to me
> I must say I was impressed by Mark Minkovski versions of the London Symphonies. Also tried Frans Bruggen but did not find them quite as fresh


I like Frans Brüggen's Haydn - he has good tempi imo, and makes the winds blaze .


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Haydn man said:


> I too have been doing similar as this HIP thing is new to me
> I must say I was impressed by Mark Minkovski versions of the London Symphonies. Also tried Frans Bruggen but did not find them quite as fresh


Pinnock has an excellent Sturn und Drang box set!


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## clavichorder

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I like Frans Brüggen's Haydn - he has good tempi imo, and makes the winds blaze .


Franz Bruggen is the best Haydn! I don't know how he does it.

I also think Hogwood's bad rep is undeserved, I find him quite nice to listen to. And Goodman does well too.


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## hpowders

Haydn man said:


> I too have been doing similar as this HIP thing is new to me
> I must say I was impressed by Mark Minkovski versions of the London Symphonies. Also tried Frans Bruggen but did not find them quite as fresh


I haven't heard Minkovski yet. I think I only have half a doubloon left after Christmas raping....uh....shopping, to spend.

HIP can become addictive once one gets used to the different sound of gut strings, replica winds and brass, and brisker tempos. Hard to turn back.


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## hreichgott

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've been delving into Haydn's sonatas - Vol. 3 & 4 by Rudolf Buchbinder. Highly recommended - his slow movements are very lyrical and he has an excellent sense for incorporating pauses. In the faster movements, he's rhythmical but doesn't lose the humourous sparkle.


I have been playing a few of the early sonatas lately and I think the slow movements are the best part, for exactly these reasons.
I particularly love two slow movements in G minor, the lyrical andante from Hob. XVI:11 (probably composed by Haydn as a separate piece) and the mournful largo from XVI:2. The ingredients are so simple, particularly in that largo, but so very effective.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hreichgott said:


> I have been playing a few of the early sonatas lately and I think the slow movements are the best part, for exactly these reasons.
> I particularly love two slow movements in G minor, the lyrical andante from Hob. XVI:11 (probably composed by Haydn as a separate piece) and the mournful largo from XVI:2. The ingredients are so simple, particularly in that largo, but so very effective.


Dear hreichgott, thanks for the listening tips - I'm going to have to check out the aforementioned pieces, if I haven't heard them yet. Yes, the slow movements are excellent - especially when Haydn does them in a 'learned' style, this brings the entire baroque dimension into these pieces. The D Major Sonata, Hob. 16/37 is a great example. But I like all the movements. They all have Haydn's inventiveness and wit and his mastery in manipulating musical fragments into intriguing and striking wholes.


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## Haydn man

hpowders said:


> I haven't heard Minkovski yet. I think I only have half a doubloon left after Christmas raping....uh....shopping, to spend.
> 
> HIP can become addictive once one gets used to the different sound of gut strings, replica winds and brass, and brisker tempos. Hard to turn back.


Yes I think you may be right HIP is doing the same for me


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## hpowders

Haydn man said:


> Yes I think you may be right HIP is doing the same for me


It's still refreshing to go back and listen to Leonard Bernstein and Sir Colin Davis in this music, once in a while, but I find myself more and more, when it comes to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, it's the HIP route I wish to follow.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

try Günther Herbig's Haydn - he plays with modern instruments, but makes it sound pretty light and 'hip' - his orchestral sound has a nice 'sparkle' to it. He has a set of the entire London Symphonies - it's very good, imo.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Can't resist posting this: 









'Haydn Seek'


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## hpowders

Yeah. That's a good one. 

I should have known Haydn would be playful, from his music!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Very interesting lecture on the 'Emperor' quartet.


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## hpowders

Very nice. Thanks!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

The 'Emperor' Quartet (1st mvt.) by the Engegård Quartet - these guys are good!






Plus, excellent recording quality.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Favourite Haydn piano trio? Been really enjoying Hob. 15/18 and 15/20 lately, very fun to listen to. What are your favourite Haydn piano trio recordings?


----------



## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Favourite Haydn piano trio? Been really enjoying Hob. 15/18 and 15/20 lately, very fun to listen to. What are your favourite Haydn piano trio recordings?


Bat (Philips) w. 28 - 31, and KLR Trio (Dorian) w. 12, 25, 27, 28.:tiphat:


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## Haydn man

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> The 'Emperor' Quartet (1st mvt.) by the Engegård Quartet - these guys are good!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, excellent recording quality.


They certainly are


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Vaneyes said:


> Bat (Philips) w. 28 - 31, and KLR Trio (Dorian) w. 12, 25, 27, 28.:tiphat:


Did you have a chance to check out the Trio Fontenay Haydn?

http://www.amazon.de/Klaviertrios-T...qid=1421925612&sr=1-1&keywords=haydn+fontenay

Sounds very good from the samples.

And also the Bartolozzi trio:

http://www.amazon.de/Klaviertrios-V...1925689&sr=1-3&keywords=haydn+bartolozzi+trio

The Trio Viennarte also sounds very good, from these samples:

http://www.amazon.de/Die-Bartolozzi...1925689&sr=1-1&keywords=haydn+bartolozzi+trio


----------



## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Did you have a chance to check out the Trio Fontenay Haydn?
> 
> http://www.amazon.de/Klaviertrios-T...qid=1421925612&sr=1-1&keywords=haydn+fontenay
> 
> Sounds very good from the samples.
> 
> And also the Bartolozzi trio:
> 
> http://www.amazon.de/Klaviertrios-V...1925689&sr=1-3&keywords=haydn+bartolozzi+trio
> 
> The Trio Viennarte also sounds very good, from these samples:
> 
> http://www.amazon.de/Die-Bartolozzi...1925689&sr=1-1&keywords=haydn+bartolozzi+trio


Thanks for those, HBC. Of the three, I easily preferred Trio Viennarte. Trio Fontenay is my go-to for Brahms, but I think their Haydn isn't spry enough--slow tempi and a carefulness in spots. Bartolozzi Trio, I didn't care for...a bright acoustic, with too dominant piano in many spots detracts from the outing for me. A lesser point is I have less interest in the earlier Piano Trios.:tiphat:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Vaneyes said:


> Thanks for those, HBC. Of the three, I easily preferred Trio Viennarte. Trio Fontenay is my go-to for Brahms, but I think their Haydn isn't spry enough--slow tempi and a carefulness in spots. Bartolozzi Trio, I didn't care for...a bright acoustic, with too dominant piano in many spots detracts from the outing for me. A lesser point is I have less interest in the earlier Piano Trios.:tiphat:


Hm, well the ones in the Bartolozzi CD aren't really 'early' - they're from the 1780s, so I'd say they're already written in the mature style. I like them a lot as well, they're almost as good as 24-30, imo. The Bartolozzi performance, to me, sounds terrific. All of these sounded very good to me - different takes on these great works, I think each has its own strengths.


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## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Hm, well the ones in the Bartolozzi CD aren't really 'early' - they're from the 1780s, so I'd say they're already written in the mature style. I like them a lot as well, they're almost as good as 24-30, imo. The Bartolozzi performance, to me, sounds terrific. All of these sounded very good to me - different takes on these great works, I think each has its own strengths.


You asked me for my opinions. Imagine my chagrin at a pissing match erupting. Respectfully.:tiphat:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

But they're still not early piano trios, though. I do agree, however, that this is largely a matter of taste.


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## Haydn man

Recently I have been listening to the Op 33 quartets done by the Lindsay's on ASV
I had forgotten just how good they are with the typical Haydn humour and changes in mood.
The recordings sound good and the playing is engaging and thoughtful.
I would certainly recommend them as a great introduction to Haydn SQ


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I almost bought their Op. 71, but at one point none were available at amazon.de so I opted for the Kodály set instead. Always thought their 1st violin sounds a bit 'squeaky', although the playing of the ensemble is very good.


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## Haydn man

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I almost bought their Op. 71, but at one point none were available at amazon.de so I opted for the Kodály set instead. Always thought their 1st violin sounds a bit 'squeaky', although the playing of the ensemble is very good.


That's an interesting observation and not something I had noticed, but I do agree the ensemble is very good. I shall consider trying to find some of their other Haydn SQ on Spotify


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## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> But they're still not early piano trios, though. I do agree, however, that this is largely a matter of taste.


You may not like it, but they (Nos. 8 - 12) are referred to as early Piano Trios. Though I merely said earlier, you don't differentiate.

And furthermore, they're also considered minor works. Maybe you're too close to the composer?

Related:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_piano_trios_by_Joseph_Haydn

"Haydn's early trios are considered minor works and are seldom played except in the context of complete editions. In contrast, the later trios, starting in the mid-1780s, reflect the composer's full musical maturity and are greatly admired by critics."


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Dear Vaneyes, the piano trios played by the Bartolozzi Trio are ones from the mid- to late 1780s - look at the Hoboken numbers - these are nos. Hob. 15/8-12, which are clearly listed under 'later trios':

Later trios[edit]
No. 18 in G major, Hoboken 15/5 (1784)
No. 19 in F major, Hoboken 15/6 (1784)
No. 20 in D major, Hoboken 15/7 (1784)
No. 21 in B flat major, Hoboken 15/8 (1784)
No. 22 in A major, Hoboken 15/9 (1785)
No. 23 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/10 (1785)
No. 24 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/11 (1788)
No. 25 in E minor, Hoboken 15/12 (1788)
No. 26 in C minor, Hoboken 15/13 (1789)
No. 27 in A flat major, Hoboken 15/14 (1790)
No. 28 in D major, Hoboken 15/16 (1790)
No. 29 in G major, Hoboken 15/15 (1790)
No. 30 in F major, Hoboken 15/17 (1790)
No. 31 in G major, Hoboken 15/32 (1792)

The numbering used on the cover is misleading. And yes, I am very close to Haydn - he is my favourite composer.


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## Vaneyes

Right you are, the convoluted extra numbering can strike at any time. Though it doesn't affect my original statement--"A lesser point is I have less interest in the earlier Piano Trios." Using the Later list's non-Hoboken 18 to 45, the Naxos CD uses 21 - 25. The area of my interest is between 39 and 45. It's noted that the corresponding composing dates are 1784 - '88 and 1795 - '97.:tiphat:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

well, I also prefer the later ones, but not just 39 to 45. Haydn's last trios got me into the genre, but all the ones from 1784 and up are great, imo. I also like the earlier trios in general, they may not be as ornate as the later ones, but they're still fun to listen to and are very well crafted, imo.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Just stumbled across this one:


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## Haydn man

A little late join your discussion here but I have only recently become familiar with the piano trios
I am enjoying the late trios No 39, 43-45 by Trio Wanderer whilst posting this.
Very intimate works but typical Haydn wit and subtlety


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Yes, the trios are wonderful - witty, humorous, masterfully strucutred but also with their fair share of lyricism. The Kungsbacka Trio are also very good - they have 3 records of Haydn out so far. The Van Swieten Trio has a full set on period instruments which is also recommended.


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## Haydn man

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Yes, the trios are wonderful - witty, humorous, masterfully strucutred but also with their fair share of lyricism. The Kungsbacka Trio are also very good - they have 3 records of Haydn out so far. The Van Swieten Trio has a full set on period instruments which is also recommended.


I shall start looking on Spotify for these
Many thanks


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## Albert7

Haydn, you are so awesome. I relished your Paris Symphonies this morning when the bear wasn't around.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

albertfallickwang said:


> Haydn, you are so awesome. I relished your Paris Symphonies this morning when the bear wasn't around.


And what did you do when the Bear came back?


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## Albert7

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> And what did you do when the Bear came back?


He took care of the Bear and sent him back to India.

And one of the guys from Turkey is doing an all-month Haydn listening fest and it's great!

I get Feldman and Haydn all month long on my radio station.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

'Rolling in foaming billows' from The Creation - I really like this somewhat 'academic' but also very warm and heartfelt interpretation:






Also, his 'Be fruitful, all' is excellent, imo:


----------



## DebussyDoesDallas

My first time dropping in on this Haydn love fest. Beethoven was the one who got me into classical four years ago at the age of 40, but Haydn has become my undisputed 2nd favorite. 

Piano trios from the Haydn Edition playing as I type. Must say renditions these grab me more than the Beaux Arts Trio, as fine as they are. Also have a superb disc by the Florestan Trio. Nonetheless, still contemplating a further complete set, despite the fact I already have years worth of Haydn discs are already piled next to all the other years worth of other composers and other genres, not to mention the stacks of books. 

If anybody is so inclined, I'd gladly accept recommendations of "If you buy only one more disc of Haydn piano trios, but this one."
HIP or modern doesn't matter--just looking for energy and pizazz.


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## hpowders

There's definitely a connection between Haydn and Beethoven. Folks who love Beethoven usually love Haydn too.

No two composers were so adept at using clever, humorous touches in their music. They both shared a certain rustic brusqueness too in their music.


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## DebussyDoesDallas

Amen to that. Haydn's a daily bread.

Ludwig has an edginess that cuts through like a sharp light. But what's surprising about Haydn, who seemed tame to me at first listen, is that his freshness, drive, and creative energy can make his music relatively wild in many ways--in some ways wilder than the ostensibly wild and crazy Romantics. His may be the only instrumental music that's ever made me grin.

Not to mention that if you choose to follow his musical grammar and compositional syntax--though never a requirement to enjoy the ride---you can be entertained without having your patience taxed.


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## DebussyDoesDallas

And I'll add one more thing about Haydn's personality that comes across through his music: a refreshing lack of ego problems.

Amidst a human condition marked by solipsism, narcissism, trolling, hubris--what a balm.


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## hpowders

Yes. Haydn seemed to be unusually well-adjusted; reflected in his music.


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## Albert7

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> And I'll add one more thing about Haydn's personality that comes across through his music: a refreshing lack of ego problems.
> 
> Amidst a human condition marked by solipsism, narcissism, trolling, hubris--what a balm.


Indeed... Haydn's self-effacing playfulness is what drives the main appeal to me towards his great music in fact.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Funny that this is the aspect that usually decides if people get into his music - they may either be fascinated by his wit and humour, or make the (in my opinion) wrong decision of turning from him because of this. DebussyDoesDallas, very nice comments about Haydn - the 'wildness' aspect is a very good observation - take, for example, the 'kick-off' of the 1st movement of the 'Sunrise' quartet - the relentless rhythmic drive and the layered detail are certainly very original and do sound almost 'out of control', though of course, Haydn was careful as ever .


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## Vaneyes

For those interested (I have no familiarity with these performances), a review by Anthony Hodgson of Haydn Symphonies (45 Symphonies, 3 Overtures), w. VSOO/Max Goberman (Sony 14CDs, rec. 1960 - '62, newly remastered).

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_features.php?id=12731

Chronological placement. Mostly early Symphonies, then sporadic inclusions thereafter. The project stopped in 1962, when Goberman died of a heart attack.

Good descriptions of performance and sound by Mr. Hodgson. Though newly remastered, there are some "buyer bewares", so be vigil before considering ordering this incomplete set.

Earlier piecemeal offerings are available at Haydn House. :tiphat:

Related CD retail:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Sony/88843073942

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Max-Goberman-The-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA

http://www.haydnhouse.com/max_goberman.htm


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## HaydnBearstheClock

This recording of The Seven Last Words did not fare too well with the critics, but I have to disagree:









The orchestral sound is a great example of how effective the hip performance style can be - despite the fact that the orchestra does not use much vibrato in the string section, the melodies still sparkle and come through very well. The transparency is also excellent here - all the winds stand out clearly from the strings, creating a multi-layered sound. The tempi are brisk, quicker than in most performances, but this does not reduce the music's effect at all. The soloists sing with passion and communicate the music's message with conviction. Overall, highly recommended.


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## Cheyenne

I was never too fond of Goberman's performances of the symphonies. It was a good project but there are better alternatives in every way.


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## hpowders

Vox Box Sux.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

String Quartet Op. 77 No. 1 in G Major, turned into a Flute Sonata:


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## Funny

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> His may be the only instrumental music that's ever made me grin.


Outside of P.D.Q. Bach, Haydn's is the only instrumental music that has made me laugh out loud, and on more than one occasion. The wrong-footing minuets of #65 and #77 spring to mind, though as with all Haydn, they also have something interesting to say once the joke is processed.


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## hpowders

Have you listened to the 32 Beethoven Piano Sonatas? A treasure chest of outrageous humor there too!

The two greatest composers for musical humor were Beethoven and Haydn.

The Haydn London Symphonies are saturated with musical jokes as are many of the string quartets.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Hm, I haven't heard all of Beethoven's sonatas yet, but did notice quirky parts in them that were probably meant to be humourous. Personally, I don't think that this was one of Beethoven's strengths - his lyricism and the drama were what made his sonatas famous, imo. I also think that the way Beethoven employed humour owes quite a bit to Haydn. In addition, Haydn's humour is also there in every genre and is not limited to a single one. Haydn therefore takes the cake in my books, as far as humour is concerned.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Hm, I haven't heard all of Beethoven's sonatas yet, but did notice quirky parts in them that were probably meant to be humourous. Personally, *I don't think that this was one of Beethoven's strengths *- his lyricism and the drama were what made his sonatas famous, imo. I also think that the way Beethoven employed humour owes quite a bit to Haydn. In addition, Haydn's humour is also there in every genre and is not limited to a single one. Haydn therefore takes the cake in my books, as far as humour is concerned.


Humor pervades many of the piano sonatas-a soft note followed by a banging note, phrases that can only be described as "musical sarcasm".

Also check out the second movement of Symphony No. 8 and the final movement of Symphony No. 2. Also the musical "fart" leading up to the tenor solo in the finale of the Ninth Symphony.

Beethoven's Diabelli Variations may be the greatest example of musical humor ever composed.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Humor pervades many of the piano sonatas-a soft note followed by a banging note, phrases that can only be described as "musical sarcasm".
> 
> Also check out the second movement of Symphony No. 8 and the final movement of Symphony No. 2. Also the musical "fart" leading up to the tenor solo in the finale of the Ninth Symphony.
> 
> Beethoven's Diabelli Variations may be the greatest example of musical humor ever composed.


Well yes, but 'sarcasm' is not a positive feeling - Haydn's humour, on the other hand, was meant for pure enjoyment - for himself, as well as listeners. Granted, Beethoven knew how to 'startle' the listener by doing the unexpected, but imo, a lot of what he did in this category was already done by Haydn in a better way. The Finale of the 2nd symphony is a good example - Beethoven uses the beginning phrase as a 'signal' - then plays around with listeners' expectations by slightly changing it in unexpected ways and in different parts of the movement. A good example of this in Haydn is the 1st movement of Sonata 62 where Haydn plays around with that loud Forte. Also, Op. 33 No. 5 starts with a 'signal' generally used at the end of movements and is meant to confuse the listener. There is a large quantity of examples. Beethoven's humour sometimes sounds like a sarcastic parody of Haydn's, but this is a gesture I can't respect since I really enjoy Haydn's humour. Also, in that final movement of the 2nd symphony, for example, Beethoven 'drowns out' the humour with incessant dissonance and Fortes in the orchestra, and the result is more grotesque than humourous, imo.


----------



## Funny

I have to go with HaydnBearstheClock on this one. I also haven't heard every Beethoven piano sonata, but I have heard most of them, and I love at least a handful of them, but not for their humor. Like HBtC, I also tend to hear in Beethoven's examples more often a kind of sarcastic mockery or grotequerie where others point to Beethoven "humor," and admit it may be that I've been spoiled by too many good-humored Haydn instances to see these as anything but somewhat lesser claimants to the musical-humor standard set by Haydn.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I agree with Funny. At any rate, Beethoven was great in his own way, but this is a Haydn guestbook so it's better to stay on-topic, imo.


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## hpowders

Beethoven's humor was brusque, even ugly at times. One either gets it or one doesn't.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Well, I get it, since it 'works' in a very similar way to Haydn's - it involves highlighting the 'unexpected'. Beethoven's humour is more exaggerated, however, to the point of becoming grotesque. Perhaps Beethoven composed the 'gags' more for himself, whereas Haydn composed them with more view for the public (not to say that he didn't enjoy a prank himself). Haydn, as is well-known, was a sociable man and loved good company; he was also devout and believed in a benevolent god - he said of The Creation that with the music, he wished to console those who are in constant worry and cannot find rest. His musical humour probably stems from this same source.


----------



## Guest

Went on a CD-buying binge today. It's been a while. So, among several others, I bought the following CD:










I was thinking that I did not have a lot of Haydn. As it turned out, I had rather more than I thought and I was worried that perhaps I had duplicated what I already had. Fortunately, this turned out not to be the case. I had some string quartets by Takacs but not these. I also have some cello concertos, some trumpet and orchestra concertos and the stuff he wrote for Prince Esterhazy to perform on the baryton. So now I have expanded my Haydn collection. And this Salomon stuff is quite nice. I let it play while I was ripping it onto my portable drive and I just let it play all the way through because it just sounded so nice. Can't go wrong with Haydn.


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## Albert7

I really could use a lot more of your music in my collection. I need to add the complete symphonies and string quartets to my list at some point.


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## hreichgott

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well yes, but 'sarcasm' is not a positive feeling - Haydn's humour, on the other hand, was meant for pure enjoyment - for himself, as well as listeners. Granted, Beethoven knew how to 'startle' the listener by doing the unexpected, but imo, a lot of what he did in this category was already done by Haydn in a better way. The Finale of the 2nd symphony is a good example - Beethoven uses the beginning phrase as a 'signal' - then plays around with listeners' expectations by slightly changing it in unexpected ways and in different parts of the movement. A good example of this in Haydn is the 1st movement of Sonata 62 where Haydn plays around with that loud Forte. Also, Op. 33 No. 5 starts with a 'signal' generally used at the end of movements and is meant to confuse the listener. There is a large quantity of examples. Beethoven's humour sometimes sounds like a sarcastic parody of Haydn's, but this is a gesture I can't respect since I really enjoy Haydn's humour. Also, in that final movement of the 2nd symphony, for example, Beethoven 'drowns out' the humour with incessant dissonance and Fortes in the orchestra, and the result is more grotesque than humourous, imo.


Maybe try the Rondo (last movement) of Op. 10 no. 3. That is some very ebullient, joyful humor from Beethoven.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn would have approved:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hreichgott said:


> Maybe try the Rondo (last movement) of Op. 10 no. 3. That is some very ebullient, joyful humor from Beethoven.


I'll need to listen to all of Beethoven's sonatas more extensively. I plan to get a full set in the future.


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## leroy

Currently enjoying Haydn's piano sonata's


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## hpowders

No offense to Haydn, but among Beethoven's 32 keyboard sonatas, is the greatest display of musical wit on this planet.


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## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> No offense to Haydn, but among Beethoven's 32 keyboard sonatas, is the greatest display of musical wit on this planet.


Beethoven's piano sonatas are great and I enjoy them very much. I *also* enjoy the piano sonatas of Haydn very much (and his quartets, and trios, and symphonies, and oratorios, and masses, and .... etc)


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> No offense to Haydn, but among Beethoven's 32 keyboard sonatas, is the greatest display of musical wit on this planet.


I think The Creation has more wit and humour than all of Beethoven's work put together. However, I do not state this as some sort of maxim - this is my subjective view of things. Hpowders, you keep coming back to Beethoven on this thread - what's up with that? The Beethoven composer guestbook is open.


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## Guest

Thank you, HaydnBearstheclock, I was going to post a plea asking if it was okay if we got back to discussing Haydn on a Haydn thread.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

well, I appreciate the fact that hpowders wants to discuss Haydn in relation to Beethoven, and that's fine. It's just that I dislike when anyone makes 'overriding' comments such as 'Beethoven's sonatas are the greatest in terms of wit', and also in a Haydn guestbook. 

Whoever said anything bad about Beethoven's sonatas? They're excellent pieces of music, quite different from Haydn's, yet often quite similar. Once again, Beethoven and Haydn had very different temperaments and things they wanted to achieve with their music. They both did so in their own masterful fashion. It's silly to argue about which sonatas are better - I personally prefer Haydn's because I love his humourous style, but I also really enjoy Beethoven's.


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## Albert7

I finally got a CD copy of "The Creation" at the local library sale for $2.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Albert7 said:


> I finally got a CD copy of "The Creation" at the local library sale for $2.


interpreters?


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## Albert7

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> interpreters?












No clue how well I made out yet. Next month I will listen but Solti is pretty good in general.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Albert7 said:


> No clue how well I made out yet. Next month I will listen but Solti is pretty good in general.


Oh, Ruth Ziesak is very good. Never heard Solti's version, will check out some samples.


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## Pimlicopiano

I have justed completed my LP set of Haydn String Quartets recorded by the Aeolian String Quartet. Thanks to ebay. (To go with the mint copy of the Dorati Symphonies etc on LP which I found on Bethnal Green market a few years ago and got for the princely sum of £5 ). The recordings I know best only because they were the first I bought when I had my Haydn epiphany about 15 years ago are the Amadeus on DG, so it's interesting hearing new/old interpretations. Seems to me as if it is good reference set certainly for some of the less recorded early quartets. I need to start my quest for some more modern historically informed versions.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Pimlicopiano said:


> I have justed completed my LP set of Haydn String Quartets recorded by the Aeolian String Quartet. Thanks to ebay. (To go with the mint copy of the Dorati Symphonies etc on LP which I found on Bethnal Green market a few years ago and got for the princely sum of £5 ). The recordings I know best only because they were the first I bought when I had my Haydn epiphany about 15 years ago are the Amadeus on DG, so it's interesting hearing new/old interpretations. Seems to me as if it is good reference set certainly for some of the less recorded early quartets. I need to start my quest for some more modern historically informed versions.


Try the Buchberger Quartet or the London Haydn Quartet - the Buchberger is very witty and Haydnesque, with extremely well-oiled and controlled play. They usually choose pretty quick tempi. The London Haydn Quartet chooses slower tempi but focuses more on the period sound as such, which creates interesting textures.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

An interesting resource on Haydn:

https://books.google.de/books?id=om...g#v=onepage&q=haydn formal perfection&f=false


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## HaydnBearstheClock

András Schiff performs Sonata No. 33 in C minor:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn Sonatas on clavichord:






Excellent performances, imo.


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## Sonata

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, I get it, since it 'works' in a very similar way to Haydn's - it involves highlighting the 'unexpected'. Beethoven's humour is more exaggerated, however, to the point of becoming grotesque. Perhaps Beethoven composed the 'gags' more for himself, whereas Haydn composed them with more view for the public (not to say that he didn't enjoy a prank himself). Haydn, as is well-known, was a sociable man and loved good company; he was also devout and believed in a benevolent god - he said of The Creation that with the music, he wished to console those who are in constant worry and cannot find rest. His musical humour probably stems from this same source.


I really enjoyed reading about the goals in his music. A worrier describes me very well and I've recently found Haydn to be great for my work commute.


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## DebussyDoesDallas

This Saturday I saw Brooklyn Rider perform the "Rider" quartet. What a great piece, especially the outer movements, and the quartet nailed it. My companion, not a classical buff, remarked how fresh and contemporary it sounded.

There was a great moment near the end of the finale when the group, upon completing a dramatic developmental passage, paused before re-entering with the jaunty 2nd theme. As they prolonged the pause to an almost absurd length, the first violinist and cellist (who happen to be brothers) grinned ear-to-ear, exchanging amused glances, and then... slipped into the bouncy little tune with an almost audible chuckle. A neat moment.

I hadn't been familiar with Brooklyn Rider but went because they had Haydn programmed. It was my first time experiencing Haydn live (I don't get out to concerts much these days). What a blast.

The rest of the program consisted of short commissioned works by contemporary artists in jazz, Latin, folk, and indie rock. Really entertaining.


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## Albert7

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Oh, Ruth Ziesak is very good. Never heard Solti's version, will check out some samples.


Yeah I have to rip those discs onto my HP desktop station and then load those onto my iPod touch to hear it in a few weeks.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Sonata said:


> I really enjoyed reading about the goals in his music. A worrier describes me very well and I've recently found Haydn to be great for my work commute.


Hehe, well don't take my views so literally - I've read some things about Haydn, and there seems to be some agreement with regards to his character and to his views about music. But of course, we cannot unfortunately know exactly what was going through Haydn's mind when he wrote his masterpieces.


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## KenOC

Sonata said:


> I really enjoyed reading about the goals in his music. A worrier describes me very well and I've recently found Haydn to be great for my work commute.


Haydn is a total non-worrier in his music! But who knows what he was like in real life? I prefer to think he was just as we might imagine from his music, but still...it wasn't necessarily so.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> This Saturday I saw Brooklyn Rider perform the "Rider" quartet. What a great piece, especially the outer movements, and the quartet nailed it. My companion, not a classical buff, remarked how fresh and contemporary it sounded.
> 
> There was a great moment near the end of the finale when the group, upon completing a dramatic developmental passage, paused before re-entering with the jaunty 2nd theme. As they prolonged the pause to an almost absurd length, the first violinist and cellist (who happen to be brothers) grinned ear-to-ear, exchanging amused glances, and then... slipped into the bouncy little tune with an almost audible chuckle. A neat moment.
> 
> I hadn't been familiar with Brooklyn Rider but went because they had Haydn programmed. It was my first time experiencing Haydn live (I don't get out to concerts much these days). What a blast.
> 
> The rest of the program consisted of short commissioned works by contemporary artists in jazz, Latin, folk, and indie rock. Really entertaining.


Sounds like you had an excellent time and that the ensemble were very aware of Haydn's inexhaustible wit. I've been to concerts featuring Haydn - so far, I've heard symphonies 6-8, symphonies 88, 104, the Trumpet Concerto, the 'Lark' Quartet and The Creation live. All very memorable performances .


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## hpowders

It's not that easy to hear "live" Haydn anymore.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> It's not that easy to hear "live" Haydn anymore.


I was actually surprised at the relatively large amount of Haydn that the philharmonic orchestra in my city has played (I live in Germany, though). I've heard quite a few Haydn pieces already - all excellent performances .


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I was actually surprised at the relatively large amount of Haydn that the philharmonic orchestra in my city has played (I live in Germany, though). I've heard quite a few Haydn pieces already - all excellent performances .


Well then you are lucky. Go try and find Haydn on any typical US orchestral concert.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Well then you are lucky. Go try and find Haydn on any typical US orchestral concert.


Haydn was apparently quite popular in the US (in the 18th century) .


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Haydn was apparently quite popular in the US (in the 18th century) .


I was just reading today that Die Schöpfung was performed there during his lifetime!


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Haydn was apparently quite popular in the US (in the 18th century) .


Yes. His CD's topped the charts!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Most 'mysterious' Haydn movement ever? I'd go for the Adagio from the Sunrise Quartet - it has a very ambiguous feel to it - it's not sad nor happy - it's more of a painting, a description. It also sounds very thoughtful and contemplative. I find a lot of Haydn has that thoughtful, rhetorical feel to it. The way he focuses on a single aspect and exploits it fully is just masterful.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

An excellent performance of Op. 20 No. 4 in D Major, imo:


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## KenOC

For true devotees of Cheapism: The complete string quartets of Haydn for $2.99! Dekany and Fine Arts quartets share the honors. The performances are well-recorded and very fine. The set is more complete than more recent sets, including the early serenades and the spurious Op. 3 set, plus some other stuff. I'm not making this up!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YRDOGKQ/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I'd recommend the Takács Op. 76 - recently acquired it, it's excellent!


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## leroy

KenOC said:


> For true devotees of Cheapism: The complete string quartets of Haydn for $2.99! Dekany and Fine Arts quartets share the honors. The performances are well-recorded and very fine. The set is more complete than more recent sets, including the early serenades and the spurious Op. 3 set, plus some other stuff. I'm not making this up!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YRDOGKQ/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk


kinda hard to resist that isn't it, and I'm only an aspiring cheapist atm


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## HaydnBearstheClock

How can Haydn's music be resisted?


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## Haydn man

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I'd recommend the Takács Op. 76 - recently acquired it, it's excellent!


I am with you all the way with this set


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Currently enjoying Op. 17 by the Buchberger Quartet. More excellent quartet writing here.


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## clavichorder

For some reason, I haven't focused on the later symphonies in a long time. So I am listening to 99 in E flat and 102 in B flat again. They are both wonderful. A lot of weight to these later works. I also listened to the much leaner 80 in D minor for the first time.


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## Albert7

We need more Haydn box sets on iTunes particularly the string quartets. For example the cycle of the Angeles Quartet would be a good start.


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## Arie

Haydn is one of my composers who take me by my collar, ask me to sit and listen, prevent my mind from racing in different directions. His Oxford symphony (92nd) is one of my evergreen favourites.


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## clavichorder

Sorry, duplicate.


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## clavichorder

The "Mercury" Symphony(43) might be my favorite from the middle period. Each movement is altogether excellent; even the minuet with its jaunty and basic contrapuntal lines and the high note at the peak of its phrase, and the brief touch of darkness with the augmented chord in the trio. The finale is one of his very best; very fun and with a monophonic string line that solos for a moment in what almost sounds like a hoedown type phrase.

The middle period is my favorite of FJ Haydn's. Symphonies from that period of his would feature in any desert island listening collection of mine, as I can spend so much time on them and not get tired of hearing them. There is something exceptionally concise and lean about those works that includes the Farewell Symphony, the B major symphony, and some other noteworthy ones.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

clavichorder said:


> The "Mercury" Symphony(43) might be my favorite from the middle period. Each movement is altogether excellent; even the minuet with its jaunty and basic contrapuntal lines and the high note at the peak of its phrase, and the brief touch of darkness with the augmented chord in the trio. The finale is one of his very best; very fun and with a monophonic string line that solos for a moment in what almost sounds like a hoedown type phrase.
> 
> The middle period is my favorite of FJ Haydn's. Symphonies from that period of his would feature in any desert island listening collection of mine, as I can spend so much time on them and not get tired of hearing them. There is something exceptionally concise and lean about those works that includes the Farewell Symphony, the B major symphony, and some other noteworthy ones.


It might be the perfect, logical construction and wonderful elements of cohesion that Haydn subtly integrates into his writing. Timeless stuff.


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## carlito

Would you consider Haydn as one of the most underrated composers in history? I sometimes look at these comparison articles about greatest composers like the NY Times had one a while back about the top 10 greatest composers in the history of classical music. To my surprise, Haydn didn't even make the top 10 list.


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## Blake

carlito said:


> Would you consider Haydn as one of the most underrated composers in history? I sometimes look at these comparison articles about greatest composers like the NY Times had one a while back about the top 10 greatest composers in the history of classical music. To my surprise, Haydn didn't even make the top 10 list.


That's pretty ridiculous, actually. He's the goddamn father of the symphony and string quartet.


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## DebussyDoesDallas

I think Haydn will always be unfairly overshadowed by Mozart and Beethoven, because--as the party line goes--the former perfected his innovations and the latter revolutionized them. And Haydn's life is cinematically unexciting and his personality boringly balanced.

But I'm forever a fanboy.


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## Haydn man

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> I think Haydn will always be unfairly overshadowed by Mozart and Beethoven, because--as the party line goes--the former perfected his innovations and the latter revolutionized them. And Haydn's life is cinematically unexciting and his personality boringly balanced.
> 
> But I'm forever a fanboy.


Yes, I agree with you
Haydn appeals to me with his innovation and humour, and I feel he is more subtle than Mozart or Beethoven.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn is possibly the greatest composer of all time. Just got his symphonies 99-104 conducted by Norrington - just amazing! How did that man create these heavens of music?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> I think Haydn will always be unfairly overshadowed by Mozart and Beethoven, because--as the party line goes--the former perfected his innovations and the latter revolutionized them. And Haydn's life is cinematically unexciting and his personality boringly balanced.
> 
> But I'm forever a fanboy.


I'd have to disagree - I think Haydn's life was quite interesting, especially how he achieved fame and his great successes in London. His personality is also quite ambivalent - on the one hand, the stern, formal genius, on the other, the humorist and constructor of timeless, eternal wit. Some of his personal relations were also interesting.


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## KenOC

Albert7 said:


> We need more Haydn box sets on iTunes particularly the string quartets. For example the cycle of the Angeles Quartet would be a good start.


There are currently two very good sets of the complete Haydn quartets as downloads, each under ten bucks. You won't find either on iTunes.

Festetics Quartet on original instruments, $9.99
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9400582

Dekany and Fine Arts Quartets, modern instruments, $2.99 (!)
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete...haydn+quartets

The 170-page Festetics booklet is available for free download here:
http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=RN 0378


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## KenOC

Dupe... ......................................


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## Haydn man

One


KenOC said:


> There are currently two very good sets of the complete Haydn quartets as downloads, each under ten bucks. You won't find either on iTunes.
> 
> Festetics Quartet on original instruments, $9.99
> http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9400582
> 
> Dekany and Fine Arts Quartets, modern instruments, $2.99 (!)
> http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete...haydn+quartets
> 
> The 170-page Festetics booklet is available for free download here:
> http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=RN 0378


Alas not here in the UK I am afraid to say


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## Blake

Haydn man said:


> Yes, I agree with you
> Haydn appeals to me with his innovation and humour, and I feel he is more subtle than Mozart or Beethoven.


Haydn just has this balanced atmosphere to whatever he does, as if nothing really bothers him. Almost like he sees the world as a play.

But in subtlety, it's hard to get more delicate than Mozart.


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## Funny

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think Haydn's life was quite interesting, especially how he achieved fame and his great successes in London. His personality is also quite ambivalent - on the one hand, the stern, formal genius, on the other, the humorist and constructor of timeless, eternal wit. Some of his personal relations were also interesting.


I agree that in the right hands a Life of Haydn could make for a Hollywood-friendly story. For me his life, at least his compositional life, is dominated by the deal-with-the-devil of royal patronage. Not that this was an unusual relationship at the time, but there were others who eschewed it and tried to make their way strictliy via public institutions.

For Haydn, it worked out splendidly UNTIL he really got excited by the prospect of pushing various envelopes to extend what music (especially the symphony) might be and might do, to explore how far each element of musical expression might be pushed, and was smacked down by the prince (to whatever degree, depending on what version of the story is truest) and had to re-couch his innovative yearnings in pieces that didn't aggressively challenge any listeners.

By the time of his Paris and London symphonies he was free of the heavy hand of the prince in reality - but now might he have internalized it to the point he could never really get back to that level of eccentric envelope-pushing? More tragically, might he have internalized it to the point he didn't care anymore about pushing the limits and now only strived for greater and greater public acclaim? Pass the popcorn.


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## DebussyDoesDallas

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I'd have to disagree - I think Haydn's life was quite interesting, especially how he achieved fame and his great successes in London. His personality is also quite ambivalent - on the one hand, the stern, formal genius, on the other, the humorist and constructor of timeless, eternal wit. Some of his personal relations were also interesting.


Good point and well put. I've personally found reading his biographies interesting for a few reasons: the whole patronage system is fascinating, as are his rags to riches arc, his work ethic, his tireless creativity, his importance in developing my favorite genres, and that he's so damn likable and somehow more subtly subversive than he gets credit for. Still, I have a hard time seeing his life translate into hot mass entertainment. I'd love to be proven to wrong! Especially if a skilled film maker could dramatize his relatively cerebral, devout, and workaholic life without resorting to sensationalist invention.


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## Blake

I'll tell ya... the deeper I dive into Haydn's output, the more intrigued I become. So fresh and playful, but at the same time there's this underlying poise. So very nice.


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## Polyphemus

Without Uncle Joe's genius would music have developed as it did. Personally I believe he was the inspiration for all that followed.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Polyphemus said:


> Without Uncle Joe's genius would music have developed as it did. Personally I believe he was the inspiration for all that followed.


Definitely one of the major inspirations, of course not the only one. But for 'setting up' all the major genres that other composers would work on, of course this was an immense contribution to music.


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## DebussyDoesDallas

Blake said:


> I'll tell ya... the deeper I dive into Haydn's output, the more intrigued I become. So fresh and playful, but at the same time there's this underlying poise. So very nice.


Once you get bitten by the bug, you'll never go back.

And there's so much. Truly a lifetime's worth to enjoy, study, and enjoy again.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Blake said:


> I'll tell ya... the deeper I dive into Haydn's output, the more intrigued I become. So fresh and playful, but at the same time there's this underlying poise. So very nice.


Ah, but it's more than just nice. It's a universe of creativity.


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## GioCar

One of my recent purchases:










Complete music for solo keyboard - here a magnificent fortepiano played by Ronald Brautigam.

I'm already familiar with some of the sonatas, but I'm also discovering little gems I've never heard before, such as the splendid Largo from the youth Sonata No.11 in B flat major.


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## haydnfan

I've heard multiple sets both MI and PI as well as incomplete sets and individual recordings of Haydn's keyboard works. And I'm telling Brautigam takes the cake. Phenomenal playing! Some day I will also buy his Mozart and Beethoven sets.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Been on a Trio rage as of late - wonderful recordings:









Performed on period instruments - very lively, witty, rhythmatic and sharp.









Played on modern instruments - very smooth piano sound, a joyous and very clean-sounding recording.

Both recordings are extremely enjoyable. I keep on noticing parallels between the late Piano Trios and The Creation - take, for eg., the development of the 1st movement in Trio 27 in C Major - the baroque part reminds me of the more 'learned' and contrapuntal bits in the Creation, as does the dark 2nd movement in Trio 28 - the walking, contrpuntal bass line in the minor reminds me of 'Und Gott schuf große Walfische'. The late Piano Trios as 'mini'-Creations?


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## haydnfan

I feel inspired to listen to some Haydn piano trios this evening.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

haydnfan said:


> I feel inspired to listen to some Haydn piano trios this evening.


Who's cooking?  By the way, does pretty much everyone here own the Beaux Arts Trio full set?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Favourite Haydn symphonies disc on Naxos? I have the following:

























I'd say a tie between the 1st and 3rd discs - Müller-Brühl's performance for symphonies 54, 56 and 57 seems more lively and 'edgy' than that in symphonies 74, 75 and 76. Ward's disc is stellar, though the versions of symphonies 26 and 49 on it are probably not the all-round best versions available.


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## Steatopygous

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Who's cooking?  By the way, does pretty much everyone here own the Beaux Arts Trio full set?


I do now. I refer you to the thread on that trio under chamber.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

To all fans of Haydn's great The Seasons oratorio - there's an excellent DVD with Enoch zu Guttenberg conducting - wasn't aware of this excellent conductor before! But I was fully convinced that he knows exactly what he's doing after hearing and seeing this DVD. Wonderful orchestrational detail, very well chosen soloists, beautiful filming location (Markgräfliches Theater Bayreuth) - plus commentaries (albeit in German) for each season. Highly recommended.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn Flute Trio in D Major, Hob. 15:16 - with very talented and pretty interpreters: 






I really dig the period cello, wonderful sound.


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## Funny

I've just recently been really getting into Symphony #28. The second movement alone is very intriguing, and I agree with someone on the Internet whose page I can't find now) that suggested it was this slow movement, and not the first of "The Philosopher," that depicts a conversation between God and a sinner. But the first movement is especially noteworthy for its immersive hemiola. Throughout, it seems to be in 6/8, with cadential 3/4 flourishes, but by the end those become the most prominent, and it turns out the whole thing was in 3/4 the whole time. I have to wonder if there was a bit of divine comedy intended there, that things have an essence that we humans may have opinions about based on surfaces, without being able to discern their underlying truth. Hey, with Haydn, it could happen!


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## Sonata

I'm falling hard for his string quartets right now:










This beauty is on Amazon Prime. Yay!! This along with Dorati's complete sympony set, The Creation with Sir Colin Davis, and perhaps more goodies to be found.

I ask you this: Is it really possible for someone to NOT like Haydn?


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## Sonata

haydnfan said:


> I feel inspired to listen to some Haydn piano trios this evening.


Oh excellent choice!!!


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## Funny

Funny said:


> I agree with someone on the Internet whose page I can't find now) that suggested it was this slow movement, and not the first of "The Philosopher," that depicts a conversation between God and a sinner.


Finally went and found that reference - it's Peter Naur. And it's a PDF.

http://www.naur.com/Haydn-symph2.pdf

In truth, I find most of this "revelations" about Haydn's meanings to be facile and unconvincing. But this one about Symphony #28 I think is spot-on.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Sonata said:


> I'm falling hard for his string quartets right now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This beauty is on Amazon Prime. Yay!! This along with Dorati's complete sympony set, The Creation with Sir Colin Davis, and perhaps more goodies to be found.
> 
> I ask you this: Is it really possible for someone to NOT like Haydn?


I've already heard some people who deem themselves experts say that Mozart did everything better.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Anyone listening to Papa Haydn these days?  Any new/recommended recordings/finds?

I heartily recommend the following: The Seasons by Gönnewein - with Helen Donath, Dalbert Kraus, Kurt Widmer as soloists, as well as the Süddeutscher Madrigalchor and the Orchester der Ludwigsburger Schlossfestspiele.









The orchestral work is very transparent, has a certain 'kick' to it - the winds come through very well and are played with purpose. The soloists are also very solid. So far my favourite overall version of The Seasons.

Symphonies 48-50 by Roy Goodman and The Hanover Band.









Sprightly, quick, yet with glistening winds and very-well coordinated dynamics. An excellent hip performance, imo.


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## Haydn man

This set arrived for Christmas and have started to explore it
Much to listen to and so far so good
The playing seems just right for Haydn and my only criticism is that the recording is just a little bit too forward with th microphones perhaps too close to the piano
Will post back updates later


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## Chronochromie

What do the Haydn lovers here think of Haydn's operas? I heard that they aren't that good but wanted to check them out. Best one to start with?


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## MagneticGhost

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've already heard some people who deem themselves experts say that Mozart did everything better.


Ah - but that's not to say that they don't Haydn


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## HaydnBearstheClock

MagneticGhost said:


> Ah - but that's not to say that they don't Haydn


It's their loss . Here's what Haydn has to say about all of this:









And a group of interesting memes:

http://memegenerator.net/Josef-Haydn


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## MagneticGhost

^^^^

Oops - meant to say - it doesn't mean they don't *like* Haydn.
In your response to your comment about people preferring Mozart which was your response to a comment about people hating Haydn.

Hope that's all clear


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## KenOC

"I compose music so that the weary and worn, or the man burdened with affairs, may enjoy a few moments of solace and refreshment. I know that God has bestowed a talent upon me, and I thank Him for it. I think I have done my duty and been of use in my generation by my works. Let others do the same." --Joseph Haydn


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> "I compose music so that the weary and worn, or the man burdened with affairs, may enjoy a few moments of solace and refreshment. I know that God has bestowed a talent upon me, and I thank Him for it. I think I have done my duty and been of use in my generation by my works. Let others do the same." --Joseph Haydn


Where on earth did that quote come from? I bet it wasn't Haydn! It's a bit like "When strangers do meet in far off lands they should ere long see each other again?"


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## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> Where on earth did that quote come from? I bet it wasn't Haydn! It's a bit like "When strangers do meet in far off lands they should ere long see each other again?"


The quote is attributed to Haydn at quite a few classical music sites on the Internet. None that I looked at gave a source, but a further search on your part might uncover that. Good luck!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Mandryka said:


> Where on earth did that quote come from? I bet it wasn't Haydn! It's a bit like "When strangers do meet in far off lands they should ere long see each other again?"


Personally, I think the quote fits well into Haydn's general religious views as well as with his knack for humour and enjoyment in music. And, in addition, I think Haydn delivered exactly what he had hoped for .


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## Cosmos

And a Happy Birthday to Papa Haydn! :trp::guitar::tiphat::cheers:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Great Father Haydn, Happy Birthday to you from all my heart!!! Your music always makes me feel great joy. May you live eternally.


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## hpowders

I didn't realize. Have a good one, Maestro Haydn.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Sturm und Drang symphonies vs. Paris symphonies - who takes the cake in Haydn's realm?


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## Haydn man

I think that is a very hard choice
The Paris symphonies cover a shorter time period in Haydn's output and make a more cohesive group to me. The Sturm und Drang range over a greater period and just writing this makes it impossible for me to decide which I prefer.
I will therefore chose both for my cake


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## KenOC

The Paris symphonies? Ah, a tale that must be told!

Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-George, was an Afro-European conductor, composer, expert swordsman, and other things as well - the first non-white classical musician in Europe SFAIK. It was Saint-George who commissioned Haydn to write six symphonies for the Le Concert Olympique in Paris, which he conducted.

The oddity: Saint-George had a fencing match with Mademoiselle La chevalière d'Éon de Beaumont at Carlton House on 9 April 1787. The Chevalière d'Éon was actually a man, who dressed for many years as a woman. The reasons escape me right now, but I'm sure they're fascinating. Here's a picture!


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## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Sturm und Drang symphonies vs. Paris symphonies - who takes the cake in Haydn's realm?


Both fine, of course, but I prefer S&D foundation over PS powdered sugar.


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## jburde

Was listening to Mahler earlier and then wanted something that made me smile... Haydn came to mind. In my search I discovered this wonderful early symphony. Absolutely love the horn sound in the first movement. So much joy and vibrancy in this piece. Anyone familiar with this one?


----------



## Haydn man

jburde said:


> Was listening to Mahler earlier and then wanted something that made me smile... Haydn came to mind. In my search I discovered this wonderful early symphony. Absolutely love the horn sound in the first movement. So much joy and vibrancy in this piece. Anyone familiar with this one?


This is the beauty of Haydn, there is so much to discover in his symphonic output. Gems abound round every corner.


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## Pugg

jburde said:


> Was listening to Mahler earlier and then wanted something that made me smile... Haydn came to mind. In my search I discovered this wonderful early symphony. Absolutely love the horn sound in the first movement. So much joy and vibrancy in this piece. Anyone familiar with this one?


Lovely nice firts post jburde, welcome to Talk Classical .


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## jburde

Pugg said:


> Lovely nice firts post jburde, welcome to Talk Classical .


Thank you! I've been lurking for such a long time I thought it might be a good idea to actually participate in the community. :tiphat:


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## Johnnie Burgess

Haydn man said:


> This is the beauty of Haydn, there is so much to discover in his symphonic output. Gems abound round every corner.


104 numbered symphonies. All of them are good. Not that all of them are the greatest symphony ever written but they provide hours of enjoyment.


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## Poodle

Johnnie Burgess said:


> 104 numbered symphonies. All of them are good. Not that all of them are the greatest symphony ever written but they provide hours of enjoyment.


I +1 this :tiphat:


----------



## Pugg

jburde said:


> Thank you! I've been lurking for such a long time I thought it might be a good idea to actually participate in the community. :tiphat:


Come on, give us more of your favourites .


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Today I am listening to his Op. 54 string quartets. They are all 3 very good. He was an excellent composer of string quartets.


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## Pugg

Op.76 - 2-3- and 4 are my favourites.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Op.76 - 2-3- and 4 are my favourites.


They are great also.:tiphat:


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## Pugg

Johnnie Burgess said:


> They are great also.:tiphat:


Specially by Alban Berg Quartet .


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## Johnnie Burgess

Finished up my music for tonight listening to Haydn symphonies 51 & 52 by Bruno Weil and Tafelmusik.


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## Funny

Johnnie Burgess said:


> 104 numbered symphonies. All of them are good. Not that all of them are the greatest symphony ever written but they provide hours of enjoyment.


True, not all of them are, but at least a third of them are.


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## Funny

I've been listening to the first movement of Symphony #28 a lot recently and finally realized the incredible feat that Haydn pulled off. As it opens, it's obviously in 6/8 - there's no doubt possible. As he gets to the end of the exposition there are hemiola accents that make it sound briefly as though it's in 3/4. Nothing too out of the ordinary there.

Except that as the movement progresses, especially in the recapitulation, the 3/4 accents start adding up and briefly making the listener hear things as possibly proceeding in THAT meter instead of 6/8. Easy to shake off, but still notable.

Thing is, the whole movement is NOTATED IN 3/4. In other words, the REAL meter is 3/4. Everything you're hearing in 6/8 is essentially an ILLUSION. Now, this could be merely an affectation, but over dozens of listenings I've found that, increasingly, I can hear larger and larger portions of the movement as really, truly being in 3/4!

Of the versions online, I've found Hogwood's (though I consider his tempo too fast) best captures the delicious ambiguity if you want to listen for it. 




This is something I've never heard of anyone doing, though it is something I've conceived of doing myself - writing a whole piece that can be validly heard in TWO different meters simultaneously. Much as I've been wondering how to pull this off, Haydn already accomplished it back in 1765. An absolutely transcendent exercise in visionary musicianship, wrapped, as usual, in tuneful, catchy music that pleases the ear from start to finish.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Funny said:


> I've been listening to the first movement of Symphony #28 a lot recently and finally realized the incredible feat that Haydn pulled off. As it opens, it's obviously in 6/8 - there's no doubt possible. As he gets to the end of the exposition there are hemiola accents that make it sound briefly as though it's in 3/4. Nothing too out of the ordinary there.
> 
> Except that as the movement progresses, especially in the recapitulation, the 3/4 accents start adding up and briefly making the listener hear things as possibly proceeding in THAT meter instead of 6/8. Easy to shake off, but still notable.
> 
> Thing is, the whole movement is NOTATED IN 3/4. In other words, the REAL meter is 3/4. Everything you're hearing in 6/8 is essentially an ILLUSION. Now, this could be merely an affectation, but over dozens of listenings I've found that, increasingly, I can hear larger and larger portions of the movement as really, truly being in 3/4!
> 
> Of the versions online, I've found Hogwood's (though I consider his tempo too fast) best captures the delicious ambiguity if you want to listen for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I've never heard of anyone doing, though it is something I've conceived of doing myself - writing a whole piece that can be validly heard in TWO different meters simultaneously. Much as I've been wondering how to pull this off, Haydn already accomplished it back in 1765. An absolutely transcendent exercise in visionary musicianship, wrapped, as usual, in tuneful, catchy music that pleases the ear from start to finish.


Haydn knew how to hide the fun . I would understand those who would not be able to pardon this pun .


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## Barbebleu

Poodle said:


> I +1 this :tiphat:


I am working my way through the Adam Fischer set of the symphonies. Now up to #89. Not many to go now!


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## KenOC

On today’s date in 1773, the Empress Maria Theresa visited Esterhazy.

“We do know that Haydn and his orchestra did perform for the Empress - and that they were all dressed up in Chinese costumes for one performance during her visit! Among other "duties as assigned," Haydn had shot three wild hens that were cooked up for the Empress's dinner. Ah, the life of a court musician in the 18th century!

“It's also reported that Haydn told the Empress an amusing story from his childhood in Vienna. Apparently some repair work was being done on St. Stephens Cathedral when Haydn was a boy soprano in the Cathedral Choir. The Empress was annoyed at the racket made by choirboys playing on the scaffolding, and ordered that the next one caught playing up there would get a thrashing. 

“The following day Haydn climbed the scaffold, was caught, and received the promised punishment. Apparently neither Haydn nor the Empress bore a grudge, since it's said they both got a good laugh out of recalling the story.”


----------



## James Mann

Barbebleu said:


> I am working my way through the Adam Fischer set of the symphonies. Now up to #89. Not many to go now!


Big task, did you finish it?


----------



## Funny

Barbebleu said:


> I am working my way through the Adam Fischer set of the symphonies. Now up to #89. Not many to go now!


I also just got the Adam Fischer set a little while back and am going through in order, taking notes on things that interest me. Learning a lot, even though I've heard most of these a half-dozen times (not by Fischer, though, my other copies of his start in the sixties). Don't worry, when I get all the way through - likely early next year - I will issue a full report. (You were worried, weren't you?)


----------



## millionrainbows

What are your favorite Haydn String Quartets? Which nicknames, which opuses? What good recordings?


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## Vaneyes

millionrainbows said:


> What are your favorite Haydn String Quartets? Which nicknames, which opuses? What good recordings?


Thanks for asking. *Op. 20* - Mosaiques Qt.; *Op. 33* - Coull Qt.; *Op. 50* - The Lindsays; *Opp. 54 & 74* - Endellion Qt.; *Op. 64* - Auren Qt.; *Op. 71* - The Lindsays; *Op. 76* - Tokyo Qt.; *"Last Three Quartets"*- L-Archibudelli Qt. :tiphat:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

millionrainbows said:


> What are your favorite Haydn String Quartets? Which nicknames, which opuses? What good recordings?


The Takács Quartet recordings of Op. 76 are very good imo. For Op. 74, the Kodály Quartet is quite solid. For Op. 20, I like the The London Haydn Quartet recording - Nos. 2, 4 and 6 are my favourites for that set. For the Op. 50 set, the Nomos Quartet recording is very good. The 'Frog', No. 6, is probably the best, though they're all very good. For Op. 71 - very solid throughout, hard to name a favourite. Kodály is likewise very good for that set. For Op. 9, 17, 33, 51 (Seven Last Words) and 77/103 I own the Buchberger Quartet interpretations and they're very 'hip'-styled and lively, but perhaps less 'romantic', even though their Seven Last Words is emotionally fitting. You can't really go wrong with Haydn quartets imo .
Op. 64 - I own the Quatuor Festetics (hip, but with a full sound) and the Berliner Streichquartett versions - both very strong in their own ways. The Berliner Streichquartett is a bit more 'humourous' and 'juicy'.


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## Barbebleu

James Mann said:


> Big task, did you finish it?


Nope. Not yet. Having a break but I expect to get back to them soon. I shall keep anyone who is interested informed of my progress.


----------



## beetzart

I have been listening to some of Haydn's rarer works and I must say they are very impressive. His Violin concertos are interesting. I think there is more to Haydn then what I imagine of him. Even his piano sonatas are extremely well written with regards to sonata form which he pulls off immaculately each time. Underrated, most definitely!


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## KenOC

Got this e-mail just now
----------------------------------------
If you were a member of the European nobility, the summer of 1798 was a very anxious time. A rampaging French general named Napoleon Bonaparte had crushed your armies on land and now word had it his fleet had escaped a British blockade. The possibility that Napoleon would control both land and sea struck terror in many a nobleman's breast. To them, Napoleon was a revolutionary Boogeyman who would send them all to the guillotine. 

During this anxious time for Prince Nicholas Esterhazy the Second, his favorite composer Joseph Haydn was at work composing a Latin mass he titled " Missa in angustiis" or "Mass in Time of Fear." It opens in the key of d minor, the same key employed by Mozart for the spookiest scenes in "Don Giovanni," an opera that had made a big impression on Haydn at its premiere in Vienna ten years earlier. As Haydn scholar H. C. Robbins Landon puts it, in 'Don Giovanni,' 18th century listeners were presented with "the presence of real fear - nay terror."

So, when word reached the rattled princes of Europe that the British Admiral Nelson had cornered and destroyed the French fleet, everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief, and, coincidentally, Haydn ends his Mass in the more optimistic key of D Major. 

First performed on today's date in 1798, Haydn's Mass soon came to be known as the "Lord Nelson Mass," and in H. C. Robbins Landon's view stands as "arguably Haydn's greatest single composition."


----------



## Haydn man

KenOC said:


> Got this e-mail just now
> ----------------------------------------
> If you were a member of the European nobility, the summer of 1798 was a very anxious time. A rampaging French general named Napoleon Bonaparte had crushed your armies on land and now word had it his fleet had escaped a British blockade. The possibility that Napoleon would control both land and sea struck terror in many a nobleman's breast. To them, Napoleon was a revolutionary Boogeyman who would send them all to the guillotine.
> 
> During this anxious time for Prince Nicholas Esterhazy the Second, his favorite composer Joseph Haydn was at work composing a Latin mass he titled " Missa in angustiis" or "Mass in Time of Fear." It opens in the key of d minor, the same key employed by Mozart for the spookiest scenes in "Don Giovanni," an opera that had made a big impression on Haydn at its premiere in Vienna ten years earlier. As Haydn scholar H. C. Robbins Landon puts it, in 'Don Giovanni,' 18th century listeners were presented with "the presence of real fear - nay terror."
> 
> So, when word reached the rattled princes of Europe that the British Admiral Nelson had cornered and destroyed the French fleet, everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief, and, coincidentally, Haydn ends his Mass in the more optimistic key of D Major.
> 
> First performed on today's date in 1798, Haydn's Mass soon came to be known as the "Lord Nelson Mass," and in H. C. Robbins Landon's view stands as "arguably Haydn's greatest single composition."


Ken, your email service is even slower than mine


----------



## Vinyl

I just heard the Baryton Trios for the first time. 
Totally blown away. What I love about Haydn is that he was seemingly so bound by (and great at) structure and traditions, but he wrote the most beautiful melodies! The first movement, adagio, of the first trio is absolutely perfect!
Add to that the haunting sounds of the Baryton, played by a true master, skillfully recorded and produced, and you have a pretty top shelf record. 

Esterhazy Baryton Trio.


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## hpowders

The Tokyo Op. 76 are quite good, but they use a touch too much vibrato at times, IMHO.


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## Barbebleu

Four symphonies to go, then that's me finished the Haydn symphonies!!


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## Funny

Vinyl said:


> Totally blown away. What I love about Haydn is that he was seemingly so bound by (and great at) structure and traditions, but he wrote the most beautiful melodies!


Even in such a restricted idiom, Haydn also played with structure and tradition, honoring the letter of the law while violating the spirit. Two examples that come to mind, which Gretchen Wheelock mentions in her Haydn book, are the end of the "Joke" quartet, op. 33 no. 2, where he surprises the listener by ending on an opening phrase, which would seemingly not be kosher, except upon closer examination that lightning-quick phrase actually contains a Perfect Authentic Cadence, which is required for the end of a piece; and the part of the last movement of Symphony #60 where the strings stop the whole movement to tune their instruments - the normal process for doing so involves playing fifths across the strings from low to high, which replicates the circle of fifths movement that was required, so this "interruption" officially follows the rules harmonically, even though dramatically it totally breaks the fourth wall.


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## ArtMusics Dad

Barbebleu said:


> Four symphonies to go, then that's me finished the Haydn symphonies!!


Wow, that's a large feat! Was it all at once?


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## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Four symphonies to go, then that's me finished the Haydn symphonies!!


Well done Barbebleu :tiphat:


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## Barbebleu

ArtMusics Dad said:


> Wow, that's a large feat! Was it all at once?


Oh my goodness no. It's taken me about three years, off and on. Too much other stuff to listen to as well. I have thoroughly enjoyed it though. Some lovely stuff and although prolific he is remarkably consistent. Even the early symphonies have a lot of charm. And before anyone mentions the string quartets, I've already listened to them.:tiphat:


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## Der Titan

Haydn is a composer who has composed remarkably lot wonderfull music. I like his piano sonatas who are I think underrated, I like his string quartetts of course, who are rightly famous, I think some of his piano trios are nice, and I like his late symphonies. I think with Haydn you come never to an end because he has written so much really fine music.


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## Janspe

My listening habits don't serve Haydn too well - I'm very fond of going through complete sets of works and it's kinda difficult with Haydn, given that he wrote so much. I do love Haydn's music a lot, and I'm trying to make a conscious decision to listen to it more.

It helps when artists that I like have recordings of his music in their catalogues - right now I'm listening to Glenn Gould performing the piano sonatas in D, C and E-flat, Hob. XVI 42, 48 and 49. Marvelous music!


----------



## hpowders

Janspe said:


> My listening habits don't serve Haydn too well - I'm very fond of going through complete sets of works and it's kinda difficult with Haydn, given that he wrote so much. I do love Haydn's music a lot, and I'm trying to make a conscious decision to listen to it more.
> 
> It helps when artists that I like have recordings of his music in their catalogues - right now I'm listening to Glenn Gould performing the piano sonatas in D, C and E-flat, Hob. XVI 42, 48 and 49. Marvelous music!


For great Haydn, check out the 12 London Symphonies 93-104.


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## Pugg

Janspe said:


> My listening habits don't serve Haydn too well - I'm very fond of going through complete sets of works and it's kinda difficult with Haydn, given that he wrote so much. I do love Haydn's music a lot, and I'm trying to make a conscious decision to listen to it more.
> 
> It helps when artists that I like have recordings of his music in their catalogues - right now I'm listening to Glenn Gould performing the piano sonatas in D, C and E-flat, Hob. XVI 42, 48 and 49. Marvelous music!


Do not forget his very fine Piano trios, preferably recorded by Beaus Arts Trio.


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## KenOC

Pugg said:


> Do not forget his very fine Piano trios, preferably recorded by Beaus Arts Trio.


Also the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. Sadly, no longer as cheap as they were at one time.


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## Pugg

KenOC said:


> Also the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. Sadly, no longer as cheap as they were at one time.


I found a box for €13.95, included shipping, should I go for it?


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## Serenus

Hydn, Mozart, Beethoven, these three composers are considered classics,
those before were polyphonic, and those after modern. 
I really love f Haydn string quartet, where it is clear the development of a new form, the sonata.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Check out Fazil Say's take on Haydn's Sonata Hob. XVI/35 in C Major . This guy knows his Haydn.


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## KenOC

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Check out Fazil Say's take on Haydn's Sonata Hob. XVI/35 in C Major . This guy knows his Haydn.


Fazil Say also recorded what is now my favorite set of Mozart piano sonatas!


----------



## hpowders

hpowders said:


> For great Haydn, check out the 12 London Symphonies 93-104.


I was about to "like" this brilliant post, completely in sync with my own musical tastes....until I realized I posted it way Bach on January 16th. Embarrassing...


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

KenOC said:


> Fazil Say also recorded what is now my favorite set of Mozart piano sonatas!


The guy has some immense talent, especially his control of dynamics is astounding. Just the right skill set for Haydn .


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> I was about to "like" this brilliant post, completely in sync with my own musical tastes....until I realized I posted it way Bach on January 16th. Embarrassing...


I just 'liked' your post about wanting to like your own post. 

Other Haydn exploits: recently acquired a cassette of Böhm conducting The Seasons. Gooooood stuff , although a cassette can't even fit half of the oratorio and much of the excellent material ends up being left out.


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I just 'liked' your post about wanting to like your own post.
> 
> Other Haydn exploits: recently acquired a cassette of Böhm conducting The Seasons. Gooooood stuff .


Where have you been Haydn? I was thinking of you!!!


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I just 'liked' your post about wanting to like your own post.
> 
> Other Haydn exploits: recently acquired a cassette of Böhm conducting The Seasons. Gooooood stuff , although a cassette can't even fit half of the oratorio and much of the excellent material ends up being left out.


Shoudn't the egocentrics among us be able to "like" our own posts? Sometimes, those are the only "likes" we can ever hope to get!!! :lol:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Where have you been Haydn? I was thinking of you!!!


Just haven't gotten around to posting too much as of late, unfortunately. Haydn probably still remains my most loved classical music figure, although the circle of composers I listen to has been expanding.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> Shoudn't the egocentrics among us be able to "like" our own posts? Sometimes, those are the only "likes" we can ever hope to get!!! :lol:


I'm watching you hpowders, better not catch you 'liking' your posts, nevermind your own 'likes' :lol:.


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I'm watching you hpowders, better not catch you 'liking' your posts, nevermind your own 'likes' :lol:.


They won't let me. I need someone else's computer.


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## Pugg

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Check out Fazil Say's take on Haydn's Sonata Hob. XVI/35 in C Major . This guy knows his Haydn.


Stunning is the right word.


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## Pugg

KenOC said:


> Also the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. Sadly, no longer as cheap as they were at one time.


I forgot to thank you for tour recommendation, highly appreciated.


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## danj

So, Haydn has basically becoming someone I admire for many reasons. One of the reasons: Farewell Symphony. That level of empathy, acute awareness and wit was noticable and showed Haydn what kind of man he was.

One of the works I always come back listening to (apart from his many others) is his Organ Concerto No. 1 in C Major. The 2nd movement is especially sublime.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I've been on a Quartet streak with Haydn, somehow his quartets have been dominating Haydn listening. Are they truly his greatest genre? They're just so joyful, playful and quirky, and yet at the same time sturdy, robust and expressive. Opinions .


----------



## danj

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've been on a Quartet streak with Haydn, somehow his quartets have been dominating Haydn listening. Are they truly his greatest genre? They're just so joyful, playful and quirky, and yet at the same time sturdy, robust and expressive. Opinions .


I think they are, but the thing about Haydn is that even his lesser-known works are good listening. Concertos (organo, harpsichord, etc.), piano trios, solos, masses, symphonies, etc.

I am a huge Haydn fan so this may be slightly biased but at the same time there is a reason why Haydn was so revered.


----------



## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've been on a Quartet streak with Haydn, somehow* his quartets have been dominating Haydn listening. Are they truly his greatest genre?* They're just so joyful, playful and quirky, and yet at the same time sturdy, robust and expressive. Opinions .


I think so, followed not too far behind by symphonies, piano sonatas, piano trios. :tiphat:


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## Animal the Drummer

I'd put the symphonies at least on a par with the string quartets.


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## Funny

I've been wading into the quartets somewhat gingerly, mostly because my upbringing in the symphony and concerto literature has biased me against the more homophonic texture of string quartets. Haydn's symphonies speak to me instantly and immediately, the quartets seem to take longer to get used to. But I always liked Dvorak's American Quartet for whatever reason, and now having started with Haydn's op. 33 no. 2, which is extremely humorous, I've started to overcome this liability in listening, extending to most of op. 33 and all of op. 76. Will try to keep expanding. Wish me luck!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Funny said:


> I've been wading into the quartets somewhat gingerly, mostly because my upbringing in the symphony and concerto literature has biased me against the more homophonic texture of string quartets. Haydn's symphonies speak to me instantly and immediately, the quartets seem to take longer to get used to. But I always liked Dvorak's American Quartet for whatever reason, and now having started with Haydn's op. 33 no. 2, which is extremely humorous, I've started to overcome this liability in listening, extending to most of op. 33 and all of op. 76. Will try to keep expanding. Wish me luck!


The quartet genre has some advantages over the symphonic one - for example, in the quartet, one can hear the detailed sound of each instrument. As Goethe put it, it's like listening to four intelligent people converse.

Speaking of Haydn's quartets - from listening to the samples of the Doric Quartet's Op. 76, released 2016, I can conclude that this must be one of the better recorded versions available:

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String...499959000&sr=8-3&keywords=haydn+doric+quartet


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## LarryShone

Dear Haydn, I need to acquire your piano sonatas on CD, but how many did you write, and who is your finest interpreter?


----------



## hpowders

Post deleted due to lack of feed-Bach.


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## Animal the Drummer

Hallo Larry. Always happy to meet my fans.

If one includes a number of slighter works from my younger days, I can claim to have written just over 60 sonatas. As far as interpreters go, I like the large-scale performances of my sonatas from Alfred Brendel, but I don't think he recorded that many of them. In terms of complete sets you won't go far wrong with Jenö Jandö on Naxos. One set I would avoid is that of Marc-André Hamelin, whose technique is staggering but who uses my sonatas as display vehicles too often for my taste.

It is possible you may hear a joke about me practising on a spinster in the attic (a supposed typo for "spinet", haha, not). Please ignore this scurrilous rumour. I never needed practice with *that*, I can assure you. Suggestions to the contrary are on a Haydn to nothing.

Yours sincerely,
Franz Josef Haydn


----------



## LarryShone

Animal the Drummer said:


> Hallo Larry. Always happy to meet my fans.
> 
> If one includes a number of slighter works from my younger days, I can claim to have written just over 60 sonatas. As far as interpreters go, I like the large-scale performances of my sonatas from Alfred Brendel, but I don't think he recorded that many of them. In terms of complete sets you won't go far wrong with Jenö Jandö on Naxos. One set I would avoid is that of Marc-André Hamelin, whose technique is staggering but who uses my sonatas as display vehicles too often for my taste.
> 
> It is possible you may hear a joke about me practising on a spinster in the attic (a supposed typo for "spinet", haha, not). Please ignore this scurrilous rumour. I never needed practice with *that*, I can assure you. Suggestions to the contrary are on a Haydn to nothing.
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> Franz Josef Haydn


I have spotted that Naxos set on Amazon, under Jendo. (I have some other Naxos disks of other composer's works with Jendo) But I'm confused by the numbering. It seems to begin with number 59 and there are 7 disks!


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## LarryShone

The Naxos set on Amazon. Where is number 1?


----------



## Vaneyes

LarryShone said:


> I have spotted that Naxos set on Amazon, under Jendo. (I have some other Naxos disks of other composer's works with Jendo) But I'm confused by the numbering. It seems to begin with number 59 and there are 7 disks!


Single issues don't always correspond with chronological order.

10 CDs in this set...

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=207526

http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/n/nxs01042a.php

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Comple...TF8&qid=1499985218&sr=1-1&keywords=B001GVA7DM

Related:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/May01/Haydn_sonatas.htm


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## LarryShone

10 CDs, wow! If only I could afford it.


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## Larkenfield

Christi said:


> What did he write ? A string trio ?


At least. And probably a few immortal symphonies and string quartets. But he couldn't fly like an airplane and probably wasn't as good as Mozart in playing a friendly game of billiards.


----------



## newyorkconversation

Hello Maestro! 

I have listened to all your major string quartet works this year: Op. 20, Op. 33, Op. 50, Op. 76, and Op. 77, with extraordinary pleasure. I have also been lucky enough to see five of them performed live in the same period ("Fifths" twice!). 

This winter I will see your "Seasons" live. I'll also be looking for more opportunities to see your quartets. At some point I'm sure I will begin to learn the symphonies as well. 

Thank you dear Papa Haydn!

(love this (somewhat odd?) "Guestbook" feature of TC!)


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## LarryShone

I am getting a box set of your piano sonatas for Christmas and look forward to spending time with them!


----------



## Haydn man

LarryShone said:


> I am getting a box set of your piano sonatas for Christmas and look forward to spending time with them!


Which set are you getting?


----------



## LarryShone

Haydn man said:


> Which set are you getting?


Not 100% certain but pretty sure its a Decca set with Brendel.


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## Larkenfield

Christi said:


> What did he write ?


It was a surprise! :tiphat:


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## Haydn man

I have this set of the piano sonatas and can highly recommend it. 
Glorious playing admittedly with a modern piano and first class recording


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## Jacob Brooks

Haydn man said:


> View attachment 100099
> 
> I have this set of the piano sonatas and can highly recommend it.
> Glorious playing admittedly with a modern piano and first class recording


The playing is skillful and precise but I find it a little emotionally stiff. I prefer Brendel.


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## Pugg

Remembering* Mr. Haydn's* birthday, March 31h 1732​Joseph Haydn was an Austrian composer of the Classical period. He was instrumental in the development of chamber music such as the piano trio and his contributions to musical form have earned him the epithets "Father of the Symphony" and "Father of the String Quartet


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## HaydnBearstheClock

newyorkconversation said:


> Hello Maestro!
> 
> I have listened to all your major string quartet works this year: Op. 20, Op. 33, Op. 50, Op. 76, and Op. 77, with extraordinary pleasure. I have also been lucky enough to see five of them performed live in the same period ("Fifths" twice!).
> 
> This winter I will see your "Seasons" live. I'll also be looking for more opportunities to see your quartets. At some point I'm sure I will begin to learn the symphonies as well.
> 
> Thank you dear Papa Haydn!
> 
> (love this (somewhat odd?) "Guestbook" feature of TC!)


Don't forget Op. 9 and Op. 17, they're also very solid!


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## Guest

There's never too much you can say about this extraordinary composer, Haydn. I've been to his house in Eisenstadt (and in Gumpendorf, Vienna) and it's a stone's throw from the Esterhazy Schloss where he worked virtually for much of his adult life. Just down the road from this Schloss, and around to the left:

https://www.austria.info/uk/things-...vels-through-austria/vienna-haydn-for-experts


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## Gallus

Just listened to this absolutely remarkable string quartet which completely upturns everything I thought I knew about Haydn the composer. Such a daring, haunting piece, and the playing by the Quatour Mosaiques is a joy. Simply amazing!


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## JRI

I listen to Haydn more than I do other composers.


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## Jacob Brooks

Dear J. Haydn,

Thank-you again for all of the hard work you out in to all this amazing music you composed! I have listened this past year and a half to probably not even a third of your works yet it has taken probably half or more of my daily listening! Recently I have been visiting your earlier masses, including the early Missa brevis in F major which is your first and last composition. 

I wanted to salute you, however, for another absolute masterpiece: the "cantata mass" Hob. XXV:5, aka "Missa Cellensis in honorem Beatissimae Virginis Mariae." When we listen to your earlier symphonies, sometimes we are mistaken into believing that this was all you could write, when really that restraint and more subtle invention than later is built upon the foundations of a mature composer even then, capable of such a masterpiece and form and invention as this mass. O Haydn of 1766, did I cruelly lowball you!

Jacob Brooks


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## Jacob Brooks

Just turned 21, listening to the 21st symphony! Equally inventive and beautiful as its more famous counterpart The Philosopher!


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## Funny

Jacob Brooks said:


> Just turned 21, listening to the 21st symphony! Equally inventive and beautiful as its more famous counterpart The Philosopher!


Love the 21st. The first movement has some almost eerie passages of prolonged chromatic tension. And note how the 2nd and 4th mvts are connected by his repeated prominent use of the dot-dot-dot-dash rhythm (yeah, the same rhythmic motif that, much later, one of his students would make extensive use of).


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## James Mann

Funny said:


> Love the 21st. The first movement has some almost eerie passages of prolonged chromatic tension. And note how the 2nd and 4th mvts are connected by his repeated prominent use of the dot-dot-dot-dash rhythm (yeah, the same rhythmic motif that, much later, one of his students would make extensive use of).


I'm fond of this too


----------



## danj

Funny said:


> Love the 21st. The first movement has some almost eerie passages of prolonged chromatic tension. And note how the 2nd and 4th mvts are connected by his repeated prominent use of the dot-dot-dot-dash rhythm (yeah, the same rhythmic motif that, much later, one of his students would make extensive use of).


Listening to this now for the first time and how different this symphony feels than most I've heard.

I see you're foreshadowing Beethoven...


----------



## Blancrocher

I'd heard years ago about the piano sonatas attributed to Haydn in 1993, but which turned out to be clever forgeries by Winfried Michel. I'd never heard them, however; I've been enjoying my first exposure to them now. There are recordings of them by Paul Badura-Skoda, who apparently loved the pieces, at least at one time. They may interest or appall Haydn lovers as well as anyone who likes a good musical forgery scandal.

This recent essay by Frederick Reece reflects on the implications of such forgeries:

http://musicologynow.ams-net.org/2015/11/why-you-really-can-forge-musical-work.html


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## flamencosketches

Bump for a great composer. Been enjoying his symphonies and string quartets lately. Obviously, he was the first major composer in either genre, but he really did excel in both even compared to later composers.






The whole op.76 quartets are great, but I love "Fifths" and "Sunrise".

Can't find any good Youtube links, but I've been enjoying Colin Davis' account of the "London" symphonies, especially No.95, No.102, No.104, and No.98. There's a surprising amount of depth to these.

I have a question, though. Everyone knows Haydn was a big influence on Mozart. However, most of these works of his I've been enjoying were written after Mozart's death. What are some earlier Haydn works that are worth investigating? Did he, like Mozart, not really hit his stride in terms of musical depth until later in life?


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> . What are some earlier Haydn works that are worth investigating?


The Op 20 string quartets, and maybe op 33.



flamencosketches said:


> Did he not really hit his stride in terms of musical depth until later in life?


I would say exactly the opposite



flamencosketches said:


> . . . Mozart, not really hit his stride in terms of musical depth until later in life?


With Mozart it's complicated not least because he never really had a "later life" but also because the naivety of some of the last music could well indicate a wrong turning, a falling off in inspiration (think The Magic Flute, the last violin sonatas this doesn't seem a high point to me





) .


----------



## flamencosketches

Interesting thought, but I can't say I agree that those works represent a huge dip in quality. 

So re: Haydn, you think the London symphonies, the late quartets, etc. represent a decline in quality/inspiration compared to the earlier works? I will look into the op.20 quartets. Do you know if the Takács Quartet ever recorded them? I love their sound in Haydn.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Interesting thought, but I can't say I agree that those works represent a huge dip in quality.
> 
> So re: Haydn, you think the London symphonies, the late quartets, etc. represent a decline in quality/inspiration compared to the earlier works? I will look into the op.20 quartets. Do you know if the Takács Quartet ever recorded them? I love their sound in Haydn.


I just sense that op 76 and op 77, though very agreeable and popular and tuneful and simple, are on the whole less bold and imaginative than op 20 and op 33, especially from a contrapuntal point of view. I can't comment on the symphonies with any confidence, except to say that I've never much enjoyed The London Symphonies, though clearly many people say they like them, and they're often performed and recorded.

The London symphonies have a sort of weight of sound, a heft, which brings them closer to Beethoven, and so that may be part of the reason they appeal to people who listen to symphonies.



flamencosketches said:


> Do you know if the Takács Quartet ever recorded them? I love their sound in Haydn.


Your wish is my command


----------



## flamencosketches

Excellent, thank you. I'll listen after work.


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## Janspe

Just listened to the 46th symphony in B major. An absolutely stunning work, and I've never heard it before! What a wonderful privilege it is, being able to just swim in the wonderful musical ocean that this man's legacy is. One keeps discovering interesting, touching and highly intelligent music as on walks further along this path. I'm so happy!


----------



## bharbeke

Janspe said:


> Just listened to the 46th symphony in B major. An absolutely stunning work, and I've never heard it before! What a wonderful privilege it is, being able to just swim in the wonderful musical ocean that this man's legacy is. One keeps discovering interesting, touching and highly intelligent music as on walks further along this path. I'm so happy!


Which version did you hear?


----------



## Janspe

bharbeke said:


> Which version did you hear?


I've been listening to the Doráti set on Decca recently, so I went for that one. I'm aware that it's perhaps not the most highly-praised complete Haydn symphonies recording on the market, but so far I've been quite happy listening to it.

Do you have any recommendations?


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## flamencosketches

I am interested in the Doráti set. He's a great conductor. Unfortunately, it is extremely highly priced on the used market. 

I've become a big fan of Frans Brüggen's Haydn after being introduced to his recordings of the late symphonies by a few members of these boards. I would love to get more. But again, somewhat highly priced and mostly out of print recordings on Phillips. Decca needs to release a budget priced big box with all of Brüggen's Haydn symphonies  (a boy can dream).

Anyway, is anyone familiar with Haydn's piano concertos? I would like to look into them if they're worthwhile, but I don't know which ones are worth the listen.


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## KenOC

Dorati's Haydn cycle on Decca is free to stream in its entirety if you're an Amazon Prime member.


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## bharbeke

I don't have any complete set recommendations, but I've heard some great Haydn symphonies from Fischer, Bernstein, Norrington, Dorati, Jochum, Szell, Harnoncourt, Klemperer, Slatkin, Haitink, Tate, and Apollo Ensemble.


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## Ras

From another thread on which I was putting in a word for what I heard of *Thomas Fey's/The Heidelberger Symphony Orchestr*a "wannabe" complete Haydn symphony-cycle: *("wannabe" means is not finisihed, but what I have heard from the cycle is the best Haydn orchestral playing on modern instruments.): *

[QUOTE]


Ras said:


> *Conductor Thomas Fey was making a complete Haydn symphony recording for the Hanssler label with the Heidelberger Symphony Orchestra,* but unfortunately in 2014 Fey suffered a "severe traumatic brain injury" and hasn't returned to the podium. The orchestra has continued recording without him. *Fey studied period performance practice with Harnoncourt in Salzburg, but the Heidelberg orchestra plays modern instruments. I can't say if all of the Heidelberger cycle "holds up" (and the cycle isn't finished yet) - but these have become some of my favorite Haydn symphony recordings:
> *
> View attachment 116804
> 
> 
> View attachment 116805


----------



## Ras

*Haydn's piano concertos*



flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, is anyone familiar with Haydn's piano concertos? I would like to look into them if they're worthwhile, but I don't know which ones are worth the listen.


*There are only 3 concertos by Haydn actually written for fortepiano the rest are organ concertos and then there is a concerto for harpsichord and violin. The three concertos for fortepiano are numbered: 3, 4 and 11. Sometimes other keyboard concertos are included on cds and of course often Haydn's keyboard concertos are played on modern piano. 
*

These are my favorite recordings:

*Period recordings on fortepiano:

Staier:








Brautigam:*








*Modern instruments:

Sebastian Knauer:








Emmanual Ax is a good bargain because it also includes a few cds with piano sonatas by Haydn:*


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, is anyone familiar with Haydn's piano concertos? I would like to look into them if they're worthwhile, but I don't know which ones are worth the listen.


Pletnev recorded a couple of them very well I thought, though I'm not a great Haydnist, so you have been warned.


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## Josquin13

To add to the above suggestions, I'd recommend that you look into the following recordings, as well:

1. My favorite older, 'classic' piano recordings:

A. Alicia de Larrocha--playing Haydn's Piano Concerto in D major, with the London Sinfonietta, conducted by David Zinman. This is, by the way, a fantastic box set, & one to be treasured: https://www.amazon.de/Piano-Sonatas...arrocha+haydn&qid=1557253666&s=gateway&sr=8-1. Suffice it say, it goes with me to my desert island for her 'Decca' Mozart recordings alone... and the Haydn concerto is played to perfection, too:






B. Ingrid Haebler--Haydn PC no. 11, with the Netherlands Chamber Orchestra, conducted by Szymon Goldberg: https://www.amazon.de/Haydn-Klavier...haebler+haydn&qid=1557253466&s=gateway&sr=8-6

C. Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, with the Züricher Kammerorchester, conducted by Edmond de Stoutz (& I see there are various other 'live' ABM Haydn performances posted on You Tube, as well...):

Piano Concerto in D major: 



Piano Concerto in G major: 




https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Concertos-Nos-11/dp/B000005GIF. Note that ABM's EMI recording has been reissued at least twice since the 1993 release here (including by Warner in 2017, I believe), but I can't find the other issues on Amazon at the moment, sorry.

1967: Piano Concerto in D major: 



1959: Piano Concerto in D major: 




D. Mariana Mdivani's recordings of PCs nos. 2, 3, 4, 11, with the Moscow State Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Valentin Zhuk are very good, too, although the Russian sound isn't ideal (even on Denon, it sounds like she was recorded at a distance): https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07JB2PH91/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp














2. My period choice: It's a close call, since I've liked three recordings: Andreas Staier's HM recording with the Freiburger Barockorchester is fantastic and very recommendable, while Ronald Brautigam's Concerto Copenhagen is excellent, too, but! you get 8 of the keyboard concerti in Christine Schornsheim's 2 CD set at a discount price, in very fine performances, and she plays on the various keyboard instruments that Haydn actually wrote the concerti for: "8 Concerti, for harpsichord, piano (i.e., fortepiano), and organ", with the Neue Düsseldorfer Hofmusik, conducted by Mary Utiger:

1. 



2. 




https://www.amazon.com/8-Concerti-H...oncerti&qid=1557250001&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr

Andreas Staier: 









Ronald Brautigam, with Concerto Copenhagen, conducted by Lars Ulrik Mortensen, performing PCs nos. 2, 3, 4, & 11. Classics today gave this recording a 10/10 rating: https://bis.se/performers/brautigam-ronald/ronald-brautigam-plays-joseph-haydn-concertos

3. My audiophile piano choice: Piano Concertos 2, 9, 11, and the Divertimento in E flat major for piano, strings, and horns, Hob. 14/1--played by pianist Caspar Frantz and Solistenensemble Kaleidoskop, on a Ars Produktion hybrid SACD (a label known for their spectacular sound quality, even when heard on a conventional CD player). The performances are played on modern instruments and a modern piano, but the Berlin based orchestra & pianist are HIP (if Caspar Frantz's name sounds familiar, he is the nephew of pianist, Justus Frantz):

https://www.amazon.de/Joseph-Haydn-...z+haydn&qid=1557254222&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spell

Among those I've not heard, pianist Philippe Entremont has recorded 10 of the concerti in a 2 CD for Teldec with the Wiener Kammerorchester (although I'd be a little surprised if this set is worthy of a strong recommendation...):





https://www.amazon.de/Klavierkonzer...tremont+haydn&qid=1557254488&s=gateway&sr=8-2
https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-...RGH0CDPCM7Y&psc=1&refRID=T4F4VC288RGH0CDPCM7Y

Nor have I heard Paul Badura-Skoda's recording of the PCs nos. 3, 4, and 11, with the Wiener Concertverein, on the Geniun label, but the playing sounds great, on the sampling links:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BQJR2I/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp
https://www.amazon.de/Haydn-Klavier...7VK68M0W6CB&psc=1&refRID=G6ZKZ585T7VK68M0W6CB

I've not heard Sebastian Knauer's Haydn, either; nor Emmanuel Ax, but his recordings of the Piano Sonatas are excellent (as good Brahms pianists tend to make good Haydn pianists). Nor have I heard Leif Ove Andsnes in this music.

It's too bad that neither Glenn Gould, Alfred Brendel, or Ivo Pogorelich ever recorded the PCs, as they were great in the piano sonatas. EDIT: Actually, I was wrong--Brendel did make an early recording of the D major: 




While looking further on YT, I found two excellent Haydn PC performances, from pianist Homero Francesch (whose Schumann I've recently enjoyed, and yes, I've heard his excellent Haydn PC before), and the ever reliable Christian Zacharias, who's a superb pianist, with the excellent Gothenburg S.O.:

Francesch: 



Zacharias: 




There's also Martha Argerich on DG: 




Among the recordings that I didn't overly care for: I realize that Mikhail Pletnev's Haydn is well regarded, but personally, I find him cold, and rather mechanical in the PCs (while the Bremen orchestra sounds both mechanical and grim), especially when compared to the genuine warmth of De Larrocha & Zinman. I just don't find much humanity in Pletnev's performances of the PCs. It's sounds like a white walker playing Haydn.






I'm pleased to hear that you're enjoying Bruggen's Haydn.

My 2 cents.


----------



## Janspe

Listening to the Symphony No. 102 in B-flat major with Jeffrey Tate and the English Chamber Orchestra and thoroughly enjoying the performance. I know Tate's work mostly through his Mozart concerto cycle with Uchida - a stunning achievement, but he's done so much more in addition to that, including the composer's complete symphonies. Decided to take his Haydn for a stroll and I'm very pleased that I did! I'll probably check out the rest of his work regarding this composer later.

And the music? No words needed...


----------



## Brazealnut

Perhaps I'm committing classical music sacrilege to admit this, but I quite prefer Haydn to Mozart. To me, Haydn's music is more organic, less rigid than Mozart's. I especially love his (Haydn's) cello concerti.


----------



## Janspe

Brazealnut said:


> Perhaps I'm committing classical music sacrilege to admit this, but I quite prefer Haydn to Mozart. To me, Haydn's music is more organic, less rigid than Mozart's. I especially love his (Haydn's) cello concerti.


There are certainly many genres in which Haydn - in my humble opinion at least - reigns supreme: the symphony, the string quartet, the piano trio, the piano sonata...

But then again, Mozart is the god of opera and the piano concerto, and he wrote brilliantly for the string quintet and the duo of piano and violin - and I'm only mentioning a few, of course.

And at the end of the day, both composers wrote wonderfully in each of the genres I mentioned, an comparing the two is pretty irrelevant. I do find it annoying, though, how Haydn is often not as appreciated as Mozart. For me, the two are equals.


----------



## Janspe

While waiting in a long-ish queue in order to see a doctor, I cheered myself up by listening to Haydn's A-flat major piano trio (Hob. XV/14). What a _stunning_ work it is! An absolute joy from beginning to end. I really love Haydn's trios, they're so full of top-notch music. In this case I went for Trio Wanderer's interpretation, but will definitely listen to others soon... This A-flat trio has jumped onto a very high position in my list of favourire chamber works!


----------



## Rogerx

Not to be missed.


----------



## bharbeke

Janspe, I liked the set of trios from the Van Swieten Trio a lot. I'll be sure to check out some of the Trio Wanderer playing.


----------



## tortkis

Haydn man said:


> View attachment 100099
> 
> I have this set of the piano sonatas and can highly recommend it.
> Glorious playing admittedly with a modern piano and first class recording


That is very good. I also like this another recording of Haydn's piano pieces by Derzhavina. Notes are played clearly and the time feel is very nice.

Haydn: Variations & Pieces for Piano - Ekaterina Derzhavina (Profil Medien)


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## flamencosketches

I've been listening through George Szell's Haydn recordings with the Cleveland Orchestra. Really excellent.









A member here was kind enough to sell me his copy for dirt cheap. (If you're reading this, thanks again!) I've been really enjoying what I've heard, so far it's mostly been London symphonies. I am definitely not a period-instruments purist when it comes to Haydn. While I like some HIP approaches to Haydn like Brüggen, Kujiken, and Pinnock (to an extent) well enough, I think the music really shines just as brightly when played in an "old fashioned", modern instruments, big band approach. That being said, I'm not so sure I'd ever want to hear someone like Karajan, or even Böhm, whose Mozart I love so much, conducting Haydn.


----------



## Janspe

I have now officially heard all of Haydn's piano trios! It definitely took quite a long time but I'm very glad to finally have done it. The trios contain some of the most wonderful chamber music I've ever heard, and so many of the works (even of the generally more admired later ones!) are still criminally unknown. After each trio I found myself saying: woah, that was great! There isn't a single piece in the set that I wouldn't gladly revisit - which I'm going to do soon.

Whatever next ... maybe the string quartets?


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> I have now officially heard all of Haydn's piano trios! It definitely took quite a long time but I'm very glad to finally have done it. The trios contain some of the most wonderful chamber music I've ever heard, and so many of the works (even of the generally more admired later ones!) are still criminally unknown. After each trio I found myself saying: woah, that was great! There isn't a single piece in the set that I wouldn't gladly revisit - which I'm going to do soon.
> 
> Whatever next ... maybe the string quartets?


I have been listening to a lot of the Haydn string quartets lately, op.33 and op.20 mostly, often first thing in the morning. I find they're a great way to start the day. They're all so great, rich textures and melodies. I especially enjoy this disc:










It can be had really cheap. Of course, if you're into full sets, you can always go for the full Kodály Quartet traversal. I haven't heard it all, but I can all but guarantee that it'd be a worthwhile investment.

Anyway, I'm sure I will go through this obsession with the piano trios at some point too. Who do you like for them?


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I've been listening through George Szell's Haydn recordings with the Cleveland Orchestra. Really excellent.
> 
> View attachment 123597
> 
> 
> A member here was kind enough to sell me his copy for dirt cheap. (If you're reading this, thanks again!) I've been really enjoying what I've heard, so far it's mostly been London symphonies. I am definitely not a period-instruments purist when it comes to Haydn. While I like some HIP approaches to Haydn like Brüggen, Kujiken, and Pinnock (to an extent) well enough, I think the music really shines just as brightly when played in an "old fashioned", modern instruments, big band approach. That being said, I'm not so sure I'd ever want to hear someone like Karajan, or even Böhm, whose Mozart I love so much, conducting Haydn.


Karajan's Haydn symphonies are well worth hearing. They must be on YouTube somewhere.

The other one of the same ilk worth checking out but is Bernstein.


----------



## Ras

Janspe said:


> I have now officially heard all of Haydn's piano trios! It definitely took quite a long time but I'm very glad to finally have done it. The trios contain some of the most wonderful chamber music I've ever heard, and so many of the works (even of the generally more admired later ones!) are still criminally unknown. After each trio I found myself saying: woah, that was great! There isn't a single piece in the set that I wouldn't gladly revisit - which I'm going to do soon.
> 
> Whatever next ... maybe the string quartets?


I wanted to recommend the *Mosaiques quartet's Haydn recording*s, but they are out of print, you can hear them on www.spotify.com though.

*Thomas Fey's recording of the London symphonies* is also a good place to start - and likewise *Harnoncourt's Paris Symphonies on DHM*.

The *piano concertos* are also nice. I have posted recommendations earlier on this thread - see post #723 above.

*Fey London:








Harnoncourt - Paris:








...oh, Fey's Paris Symphonies are also very good:*


----------



## Ras

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, I'm sure I will go through this obsession with the piano trios at some point too. Who do you like for them?


A good complete set on modern instruments is *Beaux Arts Trio's Philips recording:
*


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Karajan's Haydn symphonies are well worth hearing. They must be on YouTube somewhere.
> 
> The other one of the same ilk worth checking out but is Bernstein.


An unexpected recommendation from you, but I'll have to give both a shot. Oddly, I can see Bernstein's Haydn being really good, but I struggle to picture Karajan in the same light as a Haydn interpreter.


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## Mandryka

Personally I’d take Karajan over Bernstein here, which sounds too American for me. But I know many people like his Haydn.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Personally I'd take Karajan over Bernstein here, which sounds too American for me. But I know many people like his Haydn.


I hear his Schöpfung is supposed to be good (Karajan's I mean). I'm listening to his recording of the 104th with the VPO. It's interesting, certainly. Very Beethovenian.


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## Janspe

I heard a stunning rendition of the D major symphony (No. 101) live yesterday, paired with the overture from _L'isola disabitata_. This put me into a right Haydn state, and yesterday I listened to _L'anima del filosofo_ in its entirety. I'm really enjoying exploring Haydn's operas, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and they're completely new and fresh to my ears.

This season I've already been lucky enough to hear three of his symphonies in a live setting. I love that my local orchestras perform Haydn with such regularity - the only thing I'd like to add is a widening of the repertoire; namely, performing not just the late symphonies but the full range of his symphonic mastery.


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## Guest

Brazealnut said:


> Perhaps I'm committing classical music sacrilege to admit this, but I quite prefer Haydn to Mozart. To me, Haydn's music is more organic, less rigid than Mozart's. I especially love his (Haydn's) cello concerti.


There's more than one of us committing "sacrilege": I much prefer Haydn's symphonies.


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> I heard a stunning rendition of the D major symphony (No. 101) live yesterday, paired with the overture from _L'isola disabitata_. This put me into a right Haydn state, and yesterday I listened to _L'anima del filosofo_ in its entirety. I'm really enjoying exploring Haydn's operas, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and they're completely new and fresh to my ears.
> 
> This season I've already been lucky enough to hear three of his symphonies in a live setting. I love that my local orchestras perform Haydn with such regularity - the only thing I'd like to add is a widening of the repertoire; namely, performing not just the late symphonies but the full range of his symphonic mastery.


I've been curious about Haydn's operas for some time now, after hearing this great aria:






Definitely on par with some of the arias of Mozart, I think, though I'm no opera connoisseur.

Aside from opera, Haydn is one of the great masters of all music. His symphonies, string quartets, masses, oratorios, piano trios, piano sonatas, concerti, etc... his works in these genres forms an immense wealth of cultural value. One could spend years and years listening to Haydn and seldom hear the same piece twice, and never grow bored. He wrote over 100 symphonies and almost every one of them is on the same level (in quality if not necessarily subversiveness) as Beethoven's 9. Haydn constantly blows my mind when I think about what he has really achieved...


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## philoctetes

For me the Beaux Arts Haydn set has aged well. I rejected it when period groups finally released some alternatives, in the 80-90s, but lately period performance has been too much about speed and thin textures for me. 

I like the current series of string quartet recordings by the London Haydn Quartet, perhaps not dynamic enough for some critics but the composer's evolution is revealed by clarity and consistency, and they are rather affordable.

For big-band Haydn I always kinda like the Jochum set of London symphonies and Dorati even with the club-foot minuets... when that charm wears off I reach for the Bruggen and Kuijken...


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## flamencosketches

philoctetes said:


> For me the Beaux Arts Haydn set has aged well. I rejected it when period groups finally released some alternatives, in the 80-90s, but lately period performance has been too much about speed and thin textures for me.
> 
> I like the current series of string quartet recordings by the London Haydn Quartet, perhaps not dynamic enough for some critics but the composer's evolution is revealed by clarity and consistency, and they are rather affordable.
> 
> For big-band Haydn I always kinda like the Jochum set of London symphonies and Dorati even with the club-foot minuets... when that charm wears off I reach for the Bruggen and Kuijken...


I love Brüggen's Haydn, but everything aside from the Paris symphonies is super expensive now, so that's all I've heard. Need to get my hands on some of Kuijken's Haydn CDs. I'm sure he is great with them too.

I got the newest London Haydn Quartet CD last week. (Shout out to Presto for making right by me following a customer service miscommunication, and shipping it to me fast.) It's excellent! I will be likely getting more of them. Outside of that, I love the Naxos Kodály Quartet Haydn CDs, especially the op.33.

Still need to explore the piano trios in depth, when the time comes I suspect Beaux Arts will be the way to go. I recently got their Brahms 2CD on Philips, very good stuff there.


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## wkasimer

flamencosketches said:


> I love Brüggen's Haydn, but everything aside from the Paris symphonies is super expensive now, so that's all I've heard.


I am mystified as to why Philips, Universal, and now Decca have always done such a terrible job of keeping Bruggen's Haydn in print and available. I've managed to collect them all over the years, but it took a while and was not inexpensive. I was shocked at how quickly the complete HIP symphony set, which included most (all?) of Bruggen's symphony recordings, went OOP.

Bits and pieces do show up on eBay now and then, though.


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## philoctetes

wkasimer said:


> I am mystified as to why Philips, Universal, and now Decca have always done such a terrible job of keeping Bruggen's Haydn in print and available. I've managed to collect them all over the years, but it took a while and was not inexpensive. I was shocked at how quickly the complete HIP symphony set, which included most (all?) of Bruggen's symphony recordings, went OOP.
> 
> Bits and pieces do show up on eBay now and then, though.


Yep, Bruggen has always been scarce elusive and expensive. I suspect something about his contracting terms. His excellent Rameau for Philips got merged into the Glossa collection which should be currently available.

I got the Strum und Drang set when it was released and paid nearly $100 for it at Bay and Columbia Tower (the old days)...


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## flamencosketches

I have nothing but praise for this great set from the aforementioned London Haydn Quartet...:










I was not really familiar with the opp. 71 & 74 quartets but they are very good. I'm listening to op.71 no.3 right now and it's blowing me away. I am hearing pre-echoes of middle Beethoven in the music. As for the performance, it's great, as is the sound, lush and rich with lot's of low end. Yes, I'll be getting more of these LHQ CDs...

What Haydn did with the genre of String Quartet is an amazing thing. If he'd never written a symphony in his life, he would still be known forever as one of the greats just off the strength of his revolutionary quartets.

@Philoctetes, I am curious what you mean by "not dynamic enough for some critics". Moreover, I'm curious which are the volumes of the series that you find strongest. I am wondering which one to go for next.


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## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> @Philoctetes, I am curious what you mean by "not dynamic enough for some critics". Moreover, I'm curious which are the volumes of the series that you find strongest. I am wondering which one to go for next.


The LHQ is unusually easy on the ears and often sounds like a baroque group to me.. This works well with the early quartets, Op.9 and 17, where there may not be any competition at all. They also fill in gaps left by Quatuor Mosaiques with their Op50, 71 and 74 sets. So those are the ones I have. I'm listening to Op 50 right now.


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## flamencosketches

philoctetes said:


> The LHQ is unusually easy on the ears and often sounds like a baroque group to me.. This works well with the early quartets, Op.9 and 17, where there may not be any competition at all. They also fill in gaps left by Quatuor Mosaiques with their Op50, 71 and 74 sets. So those are the ones I have. I'm listening to Op 50 right now.


I see. Well, I see no harm in it. Frankly, I wasn't impressed with what I heard of the Mosaïques recordings on Naïve. I think the LHQ has an overall better sound, to my ears, in terms of recording and performance. It took hearing the Kodály Quartet recordings for me to really understand what was going on with the op.20 "Sun" quartets after having spent time with the Mosaïques recordings of same, mystified. Of course, completely different styles of performance practice, different instruments, etc. Maybe not a fair comparison to make.


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## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> I see. Well, I see no harm in it. Frankly, I wasn't impressed with what I heard of the Mosaïques recordings on Naïve. I think the LHQ has an overall better sound, to my ears, in terms of recording and performance. It took hearing the Kodály Quartet recordings for me to really understand what was going on with the op.20 "Sun" quartets after having spent time with the Mosaïques recordings of same, mystified. Of course, completely different styles of performance practice, different instruments, etc. Maybe not a fair comparison to make.


I had the opposite reaction and for me the Mosaiques were the ground-breakers when I bought the original releases of Op20 and 33, but their sound is a bit harsh and top-heavy. Hyperion sound is better. The LHQ series is concurrent with the Chiarascuro and I recall some forum members expressed a preference for that but the price diff is huge.

If you sample the Chairascuro you may hear what I mean about dynamics. It's partly about tuning I think and the LHQ has a more blended "ensemble" sound.


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## flamencosketches

philoctetes said:


> I had the opposite reaction and for me the Mosaiques were the ground-breakers when I bought the original releases of Op20 and 33, but their sound is a bit harsh and top-heavy. Hyperion sound is better. The LHQ series is concurrent with the Chiarascuro and I recall some forum members expressed a preference for that but the price diff is huge.
> 
> If you sample the Chairascuro you may hear what I mean about dynamics. It's partly about tuning I think and the LHQ has a more blended "ensemble" sound.


I'll have to check out that Chiaroscuro and see what you mean. Maybe I am wrong here but I thought a blended ensemble sound was a good thing in chamber music, as long as we can still hear the voices distinctly.


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## Rogerx

*Franz Joseph Haydn Born 31 March 1732 - 31 May 1809*



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Haydn


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## Janspe

I'm trying to comply a list (for my own use) of Haydn's piano sonatas (or whichever name they carried) and trodding in the minefield of anything pre-C minor sonata Hob. XVI #20 is a nightmare. Finding consistent information regarding the authenticity of the works is so difficult. And then there's the A-flat Hob. XVI #43 that seems to be a bit of a mystery as well. How many clearly, _uncontestably_ authentic sonatas are there? Is there any clear consesus about this? It doesn't help that many pianists have decided to record some of the spurious works as well, even if there's clear evidence that they're not by Haydn.

My brain feeds on clear and easy catalogues and this project is having no mercy on me. I might need to have a drink later on...


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## Johnnie Burgess

Surprising this thread is not had a lot of activity.


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## Kreisler jr

According to my catalogue (from an older publication by Feder and Larsen, so more like ca. 1980 stage of scholarship but I am not aware of major upheavals)
Hob. XVI: 3, 4, 5a, 6, 14, 18-42 are authentic. So are 43, 44, 45, 46. 47 has two different versions (key and order of movement different). 48-52 are again unproblematic. 43 was also known in an inauthentic version for violin/piano but the piano version in A flat major seems not in doubt (despite lack of autograph)

dubious:

Hob. XVI: 1,2,5,7-12,13,16, Es2, Es3, G1

inauthentic

Hob. XVI: 15,17, C1, C2, D1, B1

I have two complete recordings (Schornsheim and Derzhavina) who include some of the dubious pieces, you can probably find that online.


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## cheregi

Those LHQ recordings are truly phenomenal. It seems like they are completely unafraid to get certain sounds out of their instruments which other groups studiously avoid. Would that every classical or romantic quartet composer were given similar treatment.

I've been reading Raymond Knapp's "Making Light: Haydn, Musical Camp, and the Long Shadow of German Idealism", which is making a compelling case for the extraordinarily well-crafted humor and wittiness of Haydn as no less artistically valuable, no less a mark of 'brilliance' or whatever, than the Romantic 'absolute music' favored by later critics... I am thinking about this in the context of the Michael vs. Joseph conversation so ever-present on this forum, for example: what if it doesn't really matter that Michael used more chromatic harmony or counterpoint, that's just not even the field Joseph is playing on, and anyway there's no real reason to associate those things automatically with profundity...


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## Forster

Can I ask those who have a positive interest in Franz Joseph Haydn, does his reputation as "Papa" have a long tradition, or is it a recent revision of 'historiography' which has given him an undeserved place in CM history?


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## Kreisler jr

I have seen the claim that "Papa Haydn" was a honorary title when used by Mozart or other contemporaries. Only in the generation after Beethoven did it gradually acquire the connotation of harmless, old-fashioned bewigged Grandaddy who is of little relevance. But the 19th century had far less interest in music history than we might think if we look at the few composers (like Brahms) who were exceptions. Beethoven pretty much screened off Haydn and Mozart (with the exception of a few works, especially Haydns oratorios and the three most famous Mozart operas) and the rediscovery of Bach (as well as the presence of some Handel and Gluck) should not be exaggerated. It was only a few works that were publicly performed and they were heavily edited. 

But Haydn is not implausibly seen as a predecessor to the gold standard of later 19th century music, Beethoven, whereas Bach is just too different and historically more distant, so therefore more interesting to some composers (again there are obviously lots of composers like Berlioz or most of the Italians and Russians with zero interest in Bach or other old music). 

I don't have statistics for the early 19th century (and they would be not very reliable with public concerts in their infancy) but we know that a lot of Beethoven was still considered very difficult fare even in the 1830s, so I assume that Haydn's symphonies and quartets were still commonly played in the two decades after his death. We know that the classicist romantics (like Mendelssohn and Brahms) knew Haydn's music well, especially the quartets were seen as standard exemplars of the genre. Although the theme from Brahms's variations has turned out not to be by Haydn, Brahms alludes to Haydn both in his first serenade and probably also in the last two movements of his 2nd symphony, so Haydn was clearly seen as a central part of the Austro-German tradition in which Brahms puts himself with these works.

I have not intentionally researched this but the first instance of "Haydn underrated" I can point to are the essays by the British composer and conductor Donald Francis Tovey from the early 1900s. He deplores that the editions of Haydn's works are comparably bad and generally seems to love Haydn and estimates him highly. 
Of course, during the 20th century better scholarly editions of the music were made and since the 1960s most of Haydn's work was recorded.

In my experience in the last 25 years or so, the (supposedly) "underrated Haydn" has almost become as tired a cliché as the "old fashioned, stuffy Papa" trope (therefore I reject this, I don't think that Haydn is generally underrated). But while I have of course encountered people not much caring for Haydn's music, I never before this forum encountered the idea that Haydn was systematically overrated or "pushed" by some historians or musicologists. I have seen similar ideas (rarely and in different shades of crankiness) wrt to Bach (in disfavor of French baroque or Telemann or...), Mozart, Beethoven, but never Haydn.


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## Forster

^ Thanks. I know that some composers explicitly wrote pieces in the style of Haydn. Prokofiev's Sym 1 is the one I know best, but there are surely others, indicating that whatever musicologists might have thought, composers regarded Haydn as a worthy model.

Meanwhile, one of my favourite enthusiasts about CM, Tom Service, included 2 of Haydn's symphonies in his guide to the top 50.

Haydn Symphony No 6

Haydn Symphony No 102

Apologies if someone already posted these. The articles are worth a look because they combine an examination of the symphony itself and give some context for their writing, and a bit about Haydn himself. They are, of course, newspaper articles, not treatises or books.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Although the theme from Brahms's variations has turned out not to be by Haydn, Brahms alludes to Haydn both in his first serenade and probably also in the last two movements of his 2nd symphony, so Haydn was clearly seen as a central part of the Austro-German tradition in which Brahms puts himself with these works.


I wouldn't particularly object to anything you say here, but revival of 18th century music in Brahms' time was minimal, and so his knowledge was the composers (aside from the few famous ones) was limited, compared to ours. Brahms particularly admired Bach and Mozart's fluent style of dissonant part-writing, (which you clearly do not rate highly, as you've opined on many occasions). So if there was another 18th century composer capable of expressions like that (but was forgotten for reasons including "he didn't want his music printed in his lifetime", etc) and his music had chance to be exposed to Brahms, we can make an educated guess that Brahms would have admired him too. This is not to diminish Haydn's greatness, but this is just one fact I'd like to point out about Brahms and his apprecation of 18th century music, (since you seem to be fond of discussing possible Haydn-Brahms connections regularly on the forum).


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## Chatellerault

Forster said:


> Can I ask those who have a positive interest in Franz Joseph Haydn, does his reputation as "Papa" have a long tradition, or is it a recent revision of 'historiography' which has given him an undeserved place in CM history?


His reputation as the greatest living composer was well established in his late years (especially since the death of Mozart in 1791).
His Oratorio The Creation (1798) was performed in Vienna, Budapest, Paris, Amsterdam, St Petersburg, London and the USA during his lifetime. Napoleon was eager to see the Paris premiere.
"Perhaps no other piece of great music has ever enjoyed such immediate and universal acceptance"

So his influence was quite strong in the 1790s-1800s when he was in his 60s-70s. A revered, elder figure of his time. Unlike Bach whose fame would rise mostly after his death.

On the other hand, Haydn's role as "Beethoven's teacher" has been overestimated. While his influence over L.vB. was certainly stronger than the actual teaching role.


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## CnC Bartok

A recent discovery for me - coming late to them, and wishing I hadn't - or maybe I'm in need of calm soothing music these days:

The Baryton Trios. They're beautiful!!


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## thejewk

I've been listening to the Op 50 string quartets this morning, from the dirt cheap download by the Dekany and Fine Arts quartets, and No 4 is an exquisite piece. The second movement really exploits the minor to major changes, with some really beautiful melancholy shifts, and the fugal finale is a perfect little passage. I should listen to more Haydn next year.


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## hammeredklavier

I find Brahms' obsession with Mozart and Haydn (which became so excessive in his late years he even disparaged Beethoven for being merely a weak composer of harmony and dissonance compared to Bach and Mozart, and not being able to write masterpieces from commission compared to Mozart and Haydn) to be slightly "misguided" and "deluded" at times. (Not any less "eccentric" than Berlioz's case). It is as if, with his level of imagination and creativity, there was only one way Brahms himself could match Berlioz and Wagner in achievement and he had to prove that it (what he stood for) was a valid way, or he had an internal urge to want to rid himself of the burden of Beethoven on his shoulders (by comparing Beethoven's achievements unfavorably with Beethoven's predecessors'). Btw, I also find it amusing the person who obsesses over "what was outdated or not" with certain composers on this forum proudly and loudly discusses stuff like Brahms serenades as if there's absolutely nothing wrong with them.


Kreisler jr said:


> I find it kind of odd to even consider an excentric egomaniac like Berlioz who obviously wanted to make something really new and out-Beethoven Beethoven as arbiter of music that was mor than 50 or even 100 years old at his time. His comments are useless except for learning something about this particular excentric composer.


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## ando

_In the lead-up to the 300th anniversary of Joseph Haydn's birth in 2032, the Joseph Haydn Foundation in Basel is organising, producing and financing the performance and recording of all 107 of the composer's symphonies by Il Giardino Armonico and Basel Chamber Orchestra under the artistic direction of Giovanni Antonini, one of the most highly-respected specialists in baroque, early classical and classical music, with its project Haydn2032._

Here's their presentation of *Symphony No. 6 in D major "Le Matin"*, Hob. I:6 (1761). I found the sonics on this particular live recording (uploaded a few days ago) impressive.


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## EdwardBast

ando said:


> _In the lead-up to the 300th anniversary of Joseph Haydn's birth in 2032, the Joseph Haydn Foundation in Basel is organising, producing and financing the performance and recording of all 107 of the composer's symphonies by Il Giardino Armonico and Basel Chamber Orchestra under the artistic direction of Giovanni Antonini, one of the most highly-respected specialists in baroque, early classical and classical music, with its project Haydn2032._
> 
> Here's their presentation of *Symphony No. 6 in D major "Le Matin"*, Hob. I:6 (1761). I found the sonics on this particular live recording (uploaded a few days ago) impressive.


I've heard some of these performances and have been impressed as well. Their take on 47, one of my favorites, is magnificent.


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## hammeredklavier

ando said:


> In the lead-up to the 300th anniversary of Joseph Haydn's birth in 2032, the Joseph Haydn Foundation in Basel is organising, producing and financing the performance and recording of all...


As I was reading this part, I was expecting something more ambitious, daring for a project, like "recording all of Haydn's baryton trios." Look at this guy talk:




_"I couldn't find anyone who could play the instrument. And I couldn't find the instrument."_

Instead it's the 107 symphonies all over again, how disappointing..


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## LarryShone

I have the 3 early Haydn symphonies on Arkiv (le matin, le midi et le soir). Its a fantastic set!


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## SanAntone

hammeredklavier said:


> As I was reading this part, I was expecting something more ambitious, daring for a project, like "recording all of Haydn's baryton trios." Look at this guy talk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"I couldn't find anyone who could play the instrument. And I couldn't find the instrument."_
> 
> Instead it's the 107 symphonies all over again, how disappointing..


There are a number of recordings of the baryton trios and octets. Brilliant released all of them and several others have done a number of them. Haydn wrote over 120 trios for his employer Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy who was an aficionado of the instrument. However they are generally considered minor works and not very distinguished, often sounding similar to each other.





































And a number of others.


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## Wigmar

SPR said:


> I have not. I will soon though. I think I'll be getting a full Haydn set very shortly.  That should fill in those annoying little gaps.


His string quartets are very fine. I cherish listening to op 64, 76, 77 🎼


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## Rogerx

Wigmar said:


> His string quartets are very fine. I cherish listening to op 64, 76, 77 🎼



II love them, specially played by the Doric quartet , outstanding.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Brahms alludes to Haydn both in his first serenade and probably also in the last two movements of his 2nd symphony, so Haydn was clearly seen as a central part of the Austro-German tradition in which Brahms puts himself with these works.


In 1896 Richard Heuberger recorded Brahms speaking in the company of Mandyczewski:
"People today understand practically nothing about Haydn any more. No one really considers that we now live in a time where—exactly 100 years ago—Haydn created all our music, where he gave one symphony after another to the world. I myself have for years celebrated these events. In a few years, when The Creation and The Seasons are 100 years old, a festival should be organized—no one will think about other events [anniversaries]. And Haydn, when he was about my age, after he had seen something of the world and had already composed so much, developed yet further and to immense greatness. That was a man! Beside him we are just wretches."

As continuation of my post #794, I would like to add that, aside from surface quotations of themes and techniques like string bariolage (Haydn Op.50 No.6/iv , Brahms string quartet No.1) similarities of their music are rather superficial, even with the difference of time period and idiom taken into consideration. (Brahms is about expressing pain through harmony and counterpoint, while Haydn is about wacky inventiveness and light-hearted intellectualism.)
It's much like how not every fugue (or style of writing reminiscent of the Baroque) after 1750 isn't a result of Bachian influence (as you said).
Btw, Brahms and other famous composers at the time were under the influence of writers like Carl Ferdinand Pohl, who wrote books to portray (as if) "there were only Haydn and Mozart in the late 18th century music scene". To me, it's more like Brahms felt a sense of "obligation" to support this Neoclassical/ist cause. But again, I'm not suggesting any artist is overrated in any way. I'm just saying many of these figures had limited knowledge/view of the late 18th century (mostly limited to Haydn and Mozart) and what they said in these matters (by often exaggerating things out of proportion) shouldn't be taken as objective truth, and what they did as absolute significance. Were Berlioz, Liszt, Adolf Bernhard Marx prejudiced? Was Brahms misguided? It depends on how we interpret.


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