# Which music genre is closest to classical?



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

I'm a bit close minded with my music - only really listen to classical. But which genre would you say is the most similar and can reach similar levels of enjoyment with?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

BenG said:


> I'm a bit close minded with my music - only really listen to classical. But which genre would you say is the most similar and can reach similar levels of enjoyment with?


Progressive rock.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

BenG said:


> I'm a bit close minded with my music - only really listen to classical. But which genre would you say is the most similar and can reach similar levels of enjoyment with?


Folk...........................


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## Cristian Lee (Aug 13, 2017)

Film music, for sure.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

janxharris said:


> Progressive rock.


I'll elaborate: progressive rock (especially sympho prog) posseses many facets of classical music: long suites with recurring themes, lots of exciting tonal, timbral and rhythmic changes, complex polyphonic vocal arrangements. Listening to such a piece requires some concentration and brings enjoyment on many different levels, leaving a very good "aftertaste".


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Jazz lads and lasses


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Azol said:


> I'll elaborate: progressive rock (especially sympho prog) posseses many facets of classical music: long suites with recurring themes, lots of exciting tonal, timbral and rhythmic changes, complex polyphonic vocal arrangements. Listening to such a piece requires some concentration and brings enjoyment on many different levels, leaving a very good "aftertaste".


Can you give an example of a performance that demonstrates this (a YT link would suffice)


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

If it is sufficiently similar, it _is_ classical. With that assumption in mind, I cannot think of anything that fits the question posed in the OP.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Cristian Lee said:


> Film music, for sure.


Classical in its superficial surface. Limited in scope, derivative of mediocre classical composers.



Azol said:


> I'll elaborate: progressive rock (especially sympho prog) posseses many facets of classical music: long suites with recurring themes, lots of exciting tonal, timbral and rhythmic changes, complex polyphonic vocal arrangements. Listening to such a piece requires some concentration and brings enjoyment on many different levels, leaving a very good "aftertaste".


Classical in an attempt at complexity, but ultimately, a trite adolescent form of expression.



Fabulin said:


> Jazz lads and lasses


Nothing much to do with European classical music. Two very different traditions.

I agree with this:



> If it is sufficiently similar, it is classical. With that assumption in mind, I cannot think of anything that fits the question posed in the OP.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Cristian Lee said:


> Film music, for sure.


I consider music that is written in a classical style to be classical, without regard for the context of its creation. (Not all film music fits, but much of it does, and most of the film music that I like does.) Whether or not it is _good_ classical music is a matter of opinion.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Classical in its superficial surface. Limited in scope, derivative of mediocre classical composers. . . .


I have listened to enough of what you have posted as being classical to read this comment about film music, and simply laugh at the absurdity of this idea as a general statement. (It is clearly self-serving and/or totally uninformed.)


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

The Beatles seemed to incorporate a lot of classical elements: the string quartet on _Eleanor Rigby_ and _Yesterday_; the string section with prominent cellos and brass section on _All You Need is Love_; the horn solo in _Penny Lane_ (featuring the talented and respected, Alan Civil); the full orchestra on _A Day in the Life_ and _Goodnight_; the use of John Cage's "chance" operations on _I am the Walrus_ (again with prominent cellos); and the avant-garde "musical collage" influence on _Revolution 9_. For all the Beatles' use of electronic elements, there were classical composers such as Varese, Davidovsky, and others, already delving into electronics in music starting in the early 1950s.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JAS said:


> I have listened to enough of what you have posted as being classical to read this comment about film music, and simply laugh at the absurdity of this idea as a general statement. (It is clearly self-serving and/or totally uninformed.)


Okay. I fail to see any validity in your attack on me personally as a refutation of what I wrote about film music _vis a vis_ classical music. Maybe you consider John Williams equal to Gustav Holst (a mediocre classical composer), or some other film composer writing music of the caliber of Shostakovich (an excellent classical composer) but I see Williams and the others merely creating pastiches of classical composers as their style is useful for film work.

If someone who likes classical music can be satisfied with that kind of thing - well, then of course, recommend away.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

The NEO classical.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> Okay. I fail to see any validity in your attack on me personally as a refutation of what I wrote about film music _vis a vis_ classical music. Maybe you consider John Williams equal to Gustav Holst (a mediocre classical composer), or some other film composer writing music of the caliber of Shostakovich (an excellent classical composer) but I see Williams and the others merely creating pastiches of classical composers as their style is useful for film work.
> 
> If someone who likes classical music can be satisfied with that kind of thing - well, then of course, recommend away.


1. John Williams far surpasses Gustav Holst, that much is obvious to anyone well aquainted with the repertoire of both.

2. Why do you say jazz is "completely different" from classical?

3. As for the "mediocre classical composers", you mean the likes of R. Strauss, Prokofiev, Korngold, Elgar, Bartok, or Vaughan Williams?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Dan Ante said:


> Can you give an example of a performance that demonstrates this (a YT link would suffice)


Most every prog rock fan will recommend this one in an instant:






I'll risk to quote another one here, which is an amazing work that's usually overlooked:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Coach G said:


> The Beatles seemed to incorporate a lot of classical elements: the string quartet on _Eleanor Rigby_ and _Yesterday_; the string section with prominent cellos and brass section on _All You Need is Love_; the horn solo in _Penny Lane_ (featuring the talented and respected, Alan Civil); the full orchestra on _A Day in the Life_ and _Goodnight_; the use of John Cage's "chance" operations on _I am the Walrus_ (again with prominent cellos); and the avant-garde "musical collage" influence on _Revolution 9_. For all the Beatles' use of electronic elements, there were classical composers such as Varese, Davidovsky, and others, already delving into electronics in music starting in the
> early 1950s.


Just a quick question: I always thought that late Beatles was musically interesting, but I have never bothered to ask: How much of the examples you have given was the work of the original composer (Lennon/McCartney/whomever) and how much was that of an inspired producer/arranger either with or without the group's input? (I never knew the horn in Penny Lane was Alan Civil!)


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Classical in an attempt at complexity, but ultimately, a trite adolescent form of expression.


Trite = banal, commonplace.

I'd use these adjectives to describe most modern pop music but not progressive rock.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

...........................duplicate..........................


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fabulin said:


> 1. John Williams far surpasses Gustav Holst, that much is obvious to anyone well aquainted with the repertoire of both.................................


Personally, I'd take Holst's Choral Symphony, the Ode to Death and the Hymn of Jesus over lots of J.Williams work and that's from a fan of both composers (your subjectivity may vary of course). I'd hate to be without some JW though, especially the concertos and some film cues.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Can't help but echo old San Antone's opinions here. I don't think there are any other musical genres that have much to do with classical music. I suspect the closest thing would be the classical traditions of other cultures, ie. Hindustani and Carnatic music of India, which of course is completely different in its own ways. I love many, many other forms of music besides classical, but I listen to all of it for totally different reasons.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

There's no doubt that jazz incorporates classical elements. Classical forms such as rondos (Dave Brubeck's _Blue Rondo a la Turk_), fugues (The Modern Jazz Quartet's _Blues on Bach_), suites (Duke Ellington's _Latin Suite_ and _Afro-Eurasion Suite_), and religious forms (again, Duke Ellington's _Second Sacred Concert_). Duke Ellington also recorded jazz adaptations of Grieg and Tchaikovsky. Stan Kenton did a whole album of Wagner. And Miles Davis and Gil Evans did a famous rendition of _Concierto de Aranjuez_ by Rodrigo on the jazz classic, _Sketches of Spain_. While composers such as Ravel, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Copland, Gershwin, and Bernstein had already been incorporating jazz influences into classical music; during the been 1950s there was a "Third Stream" movement that was supported by Gunther Schuller, Leonard Bernstein, and jazz pianist, John Lewis; that was supposed to meld classical and jazz into a distinct genre, that didn't work out so well. Claude Bolling did much better at it in the 1980s with his Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Piano (the Angel Romero/George Shearing recording is one of my favorite records bar none!).

Generally speaking, though, I think that jazz and classical are very distinct genres because while the spirit of classical is rooted in tradition, and is, therefore, essentially hierarchical; the essence of jazz is improvisation, freedom of expression, populism, and congregationalism. While classical music flowed top down starting with Gregorian chant, from the leaders of the church; and then with composers trying to please their wealthy royal or noble patrons; jazz was born out of the African-American church, Gospel music that took a free hand with traditional hymns; or Blues where some guy is playing a saxophone with sweat pouring down his back, playing for the likes of boozers and cigarette smokers, pimps, prostitutes and gamblers.

I went through a very pronounced jazz phase during my college years in the 1980s, and somewhat beyond. I was glad that I was able to catch the tail end of some of the last remaining jazz giants in concert from the Golden Age: Dizzy Gillespie, David Brubeck, Ray Charles, The Modern Jazz Quartet, Clark Terry, Sun Ra, Lionel Hampton, and Ernestine Anderson.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

MarkW said:


> Just a quick question: I always thought that late Beatles was musically interesting, but I have never bothered to ask: How much of the examples you have given was the work of the original composer (Lennon/McCartney/whomever) and how much was that of an inspired producer/arranger either with or without the group's input? (I never knew the horn in Penny Lane was Alan Civil!)


I think the Beatles' producer, George Martin, had a lot to do with it. Although, _Revolution 9_ (so I've read) was pretty much the child of John Lennon and Yoko Ono. As an avant-garde artist in her own rite, I also read that Ono, at one time, fell in with conceptual artists such as John Cage; and Lennon and Ono were also doing such conceptual albums on their own around the same time.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> Personally, I'd take Holst's Choral Symphony, the Ode to Death and the Hymn of Jesus over lots of J.Williams work and that's from a fan of both (your subjectivity may vary of course). I'd hate to be without some JW though, especially the concertos.


I am not saying that Holst was a bad composer, as I am a fan of his works as well, such as Egdon Heath and Beni Mora, but the scope of Williams' work is just far broader. Close Encounters, Raiders, The Phantom Menace, The Rise of Skywalker, E.T., Prisoner of the Azkaban, Hook, all the jazz scores he has written... And then the concerti! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

This will not be directed at you, but I know many people are shocked when they discover that Williams has composed over 200 hours of music, including 20 hours of Star Wars scores alone. There is a lot of hearsay involved, and not much study. To those who are serious and know their music theory, I recommend a drinking game with taking a shot every time one is surprised by yet another thing Williams apparently can do. It gets Russian very quickly.

The one field where he has not written much is choral music. He seems not to like it too much, and ventures into it very sporadically, not unlike Ludwig van B. I find it a bit unfortunate as far as composer comparisons are concerned, because choral music has a great leverage in making people think a composer is profound or more skilled than he/she really is. Some rather uncomplicated vocal music of Ennio Morricone or Howard Shore impresses people much more than more complex orchestral music. Go figure


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

As long as the music stay true to the musical nature, any genre will be just fine. What is the nature of music? a kind of recreation or artistic decoration? Most people consider music as merely a way of recreation. But nothing is so recreational and creative at the same time.What is music for people decides what kind of music they choose. Modern music is indispensable in many senses, but never has anything to do with the obligation of being in common with the fashion or majority, just there are many good musicians who should not be neglected. I just discovery good music from all fields, I follow some rules of exploration and found many good classical and modern musicians. It is too difficult to describe the rules and the process, live with music and try to discover, personal listening experience can be as inimitable as the best works.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> 2. Why do you say jazz is "completely different" from classical?


Jazz came from a completely different tradition from Western European classical music. Jazz is an outgrowth of blues music, which is the musical expression of the Negro experience in America. European classical music comes from an entirely separate historical tradition. To the extent people find something in jazz which they think of as reflective of classical music they are looking for the wrong things in jazz.

The unique aspects of jazz (swing and blues) do not naturally occur in classical music and those isolated characteristics of classical music (harmonic development and instrumental technique) which have been taken up by some jazz musicians are not central to the music.

I enjoy both classical music and jazz, but consider the hybrids found in both genres to be weak and compromised examples of what the best of either offer.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Okay. I fail to see any validity in your attack on me personally as a refutation of what I wrote about film music _vis a vis_ classical music. Maybe you consider John Williams equal to Gustav Holst (a mediocre classical composer), or some other film composer writing music of the caliber of Shostakovich (an excellent classical composer) but I see Williams and the others merely creating pastiches of classical composers as their style is useful for film work.
> 
> If someone who likes classical music can be satisfied with that kind of thing - well, then of course, recommend away.


It is not an attack on you personally. It is an attack, if you must see it as such, on the opinions you have expressed. The validity is to establish the context in which your casual dismissal of film music exists. You think Rebecca Saunders composes what is properly classical music, but Miklos Rozsa, E. W. Korngold, Bernard Herrmann, and John Williams do not. It is all subjective, of course, but I think such a position is absurd on its face.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JAS said:


> It is not an attack on you personally. It is an attack, if you must see it as such, on the opinions you have expressed. The validity is to establish the context in which your casual dismissal of film music exists. You think Rebecca Saunders composes what is properly classical music, but Miklos Rozsa, E. W. Korngold, Bernard Herrmann, and John Williams do not. It is all subjective, of course, but I think such a position is absurd on its face.


The OP asked for other genres most like classical music. I am not very interested in the music Rebecca Saunders writes nor do I concern myself whether you or someone else considers it "classical music" or not. Others have made that determination and her music is usually found under that classification. (Let's not get into that here.)

I think I made clear why I did not think someone who listens primarily to classical music would find much satisfaction with film scores. In fact, I think it is a crapshoot as to exactly what music, if any, can be reliably recommended within the context created by the question, "if I like classical music, what other genre(s) may I also enjoy."

Here's an idea, why don't you do both of us a favor and put me on your Ignore list. That way you needn't see my laughable and uninformed posts, and I want have to be treated to your ad homs.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> 1. John Williams far surpasses Gustav Holst, that much is obvious to anyone well aquainted with the repertoire of both.


It's not obvious to me. There is not any music by Williams that I would want to hear again.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

New Age





















Appassionato - Yuhki Kuramoto


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> 1. John Williams far surpasses Gustav Holst, that much is obvious to anyone well aquainted with the repertoire of both. . . .


I would not go so far as to say that Williams "far surpasses Gustav Holst," although I probably have more Williams CDs in my collection that Holst (partly because Williams has written so much, and so much of that has been released, sometimes in more than one presentation, which means near-duplicates). I would say that they are certainly roughly comparable, and the evidence is clear to anyone willing to listen to it.

For my previous statement, the reverse is also true: If it is not sufficiently similar to classical music, it isn't classical. (I think that covers an awful lot of works that have been posted at TC under the guise of being classical.) Williams mostly gets derided by modernist snobs (who don't want a modern alternative to what they are peddling). And that is okay since everyone needs a laugh from time to time.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Country & Western


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

In my listening experience, none comes even close to classical music. That's not to say I don't enjoy occasional excursions into non-classical but they are short-lived and less rewarding.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

JAS said:


> I would not go so far as to say that Williams "far surpasses Gustav Holst," although I probably have more Williams CDs in my collection that Holst (partly because Williams has written so much, and so much of that has been released, sometimes in more than one presentation, which means near-duplicates). I would say that they are certainly roughly comparable, and the evidence is clear to anyone willing to listen to it.
> 
> For my previous statement, the reverse is also true: If it is not sufficiently similar to classical music, it isn't classical. (I think that covers an awful lot of works that have been posted at TC under the guise of being classical.) Williams mostly gets derided by modernist snobs (who don't want a modern alternative to what they are peddling). And that is okay since everyone needs a laugh from time to time.


Neither Holst nor Williams are part of my regular listening and honesty if these two were all the classical music, I would not be a classical music fan.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Why would I want something similar to classical when I want to listen to something else? Genre doesn't matter to me.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

I have enjoyed much of John Williams music but some (big) similarities do exist...


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

My japanese idol Hyde once criticized that the japanese pop industry is manipulated by the anime themes, and to the best music people just will not pay attention. Have you noticed even in rock and roll field, there are barely any good musicians left, since when? probably around 2008. Though there are a few good musicians still, but generally I feel current cultural world is pretty in ruin. I find rock music with critical philosophy could sound very good, like striving to find redemption, salvation, to compensate for certain regrets in life. Bourgeousie is equal to vulgarity, I once tried to follow Patrick Batemans(American Psycho) music and found several his mentioned musicians, but actually none really mattered to me. Elton Johns "Like a Candle in the Wind" was a bomb, it is an immortal song, it was the reason I follow some of his albums and still find his songs much better than 90% of modern musicians. Grammy award is really a garbage, it just panders to musicians to sell its name, good music does not need more awards than its own dedicated audiences, worstly it panders to the worst musicians too and some political agendas.

I do find myself still vulnerable to temporary vulgarities even though listening to classical music so inensely. I have been listening to some rock from time to time, because disappointment with rock is much less traumatizing than modern "classical", and so far I have easily forgotten many rocksters without much troubles. And everything is just all right. But extremely few rocksters songs remain in my mind along with classical and they are becoming modern mythical figures, I can satisfy myself with a few songs of them for the whole modern era. A few of my favorite modern songs: Like a Candle in the Wind, Weight Of The World. L`Arc en Ciel: Shout at the Devil


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Why would I want something similar to classical when I want to listen to something else? Genre doesn't matter to me.


Categorization has merits, and limitations. The general merits are probably why it is so widely practiced, in almost any field.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

BenG said:


> I'm a bit close minded with my music - only really listen to classical.


good for you.



BenG said:


> But which genre would you say is the most similar


there's no such except classical literature maybe.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

JAS said:


> Categorization has merits, and limitations. The general merits are probably why it is so widely practiced, in almost any field.


What does this have to do with listening to music? It's useful for marketing, but now that people shop from home they don't have to search in a particular section of a record store to find something.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> What does this have to do with listening to music? It's useful for marketing, but now that people shop from home they don't have to search in a particular section of a record store to find something.


I'm with you. I divide music into two kinds 1) the kind I like and 2) the rest.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

starthrower said:


> What does this have to do with listening to music? It's useful for marketing, but now that people shop from home they don't have to search in a particular section of a record store to find something.


Grouping things by related elements (composer, time period, style, instruments, culture, or whatever categories one sets) is always a useful way of exploring and finding related things, and avoiding things. Life is short, and there isn't enough time to actually try everything, and trying everything inherently also would mean a lot of wasted time. (Indeed, disappointment is almost certain to overwhelm satisfaction.) If you try a couple of compositions by Rebecca Saunders, and you really hate them, she is probably not a good candidate for further exploration. And if someone recommends something on the grounds that it is substantively similar to such music, you might want to sample a bit just to see if you agree, but probably not spend a lot of time on it. If you listen to a Borodin symphony and really like it, then another symphony by Borodin is probably worth trying. If you like Borodin's symphonies, you might try other works by that composer. If you like that composer, you might also like works by composers he associated with, like Rimksy-Korsakov. That is how categorization works. (Of course, even categories might include things you like and don't like. You might like some choral music, and not other choral music. Often it is a marriage of sub-categories that establishes a pattern of value.) It is also a convenient short-hand for discussion. What is the alternative?


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Nothing to see here.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> Jazz came from a completely different tradition from Western European classical music. Jazz is an outgrowth of blues music, which is the musical expression of the Negro experience in America. European classical music comes from an entirely separate historical tradition.


Well, come on... not ENTIRELY separate. They're still relatively linked, all things considered.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well, come on... not ENTIRELY separate. They're still relatively linked, all things considered.


Jazz is Classicized Blues, or Bluesy Classical


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well, come on... not ENTIRELY separate. They're still relatively linked, all things considered.


Yes, because jazz utilizes European harmony. Jazz players improvise on the American Songbook repertoire written by Jewish songwriters in addition the blues and swing rhythms.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

The only genre that escapes Classical enough to be considered another genre are the sub-genres within Classical.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well, come on... not ENTIRELY separate. They're still relatively linked, all things considered.


I didn't say "entirely separate" as styles of music - but they developed entirely differently. Blues musicians were somewhat influenced by white musicians. White hillbiilly music was played by black string bands, and then later blacks, even back when slaves, heard whites playing classical music and learned the same hymns.

But the influence went both ways.

In an ironic twist, the banjo was originally an instrument only played by blacks, there is considerable research that it is a based on an instrument played in Africa. The modern banjo was created with materials at hand black slaves found in America, trying to replicate the instrument they knew from their homeland. Then it was taken up by white mountain musicians and dropped by blacks. It is now considered the quintessential instrument of a bluegrass line-up. However, in the last twenty years or so blacks have begin to reacquaint themselves with some of this roots history. Bands like the Carolina Chocolate Drops and others have focused on black old-time music once again.

But how blacks assimilated these strands of white music was very different from how they have been used in western classical music.

I think it is far easier for whites to exaggerate the influence of European classical or any kind of white music on jazz than to acknowledge that jazz is almost entirely the product of black musicians.

But for the purposes of this thread - there is absolutely no guarantee that someone whose primary musical love is classical music would find anything in jazz to enjoy.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Azol said:


> Most every prog rock fan will recommend this one in an instant:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting but it is as near to classical as is ragtime.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> Can't help but echo old San Antone's opinions here. I don't think there are any other musical genres that have much to do with classical music. I suspect the closest thing would be the classical traditions of other cultures, ie. Hindustani and Carnatic music of India, which of course is completely different in its own ways. I love many, many other forms of music besides classical, but I listen to all of it for totally different reasons.


Yes, in general I am with you and San Antone, over the years many people with a greater knowledge of music than most of us have classified the various types of music that are around and IMO they are spot on.


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

I wonder what instruments Beethoven would have used and his type of music had he been born in, say 1957, rather than 1827.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

musichal said:


> I wonder what instruments Beethoven would have used and his type of music had he been born in, say 1957, rather than 1827.


You might just as well ask if he would even be a composer if he had been born in 1957. You cannot take someone entirely out of their context and plop them down in another context and assume that everything else will be the same.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I will have to reiterate that prog-rock is quite close, but not the usual bands listed so far (YES, King Crimson, etc), but the avant-garde bands of the avant-prog subgenre. But they are closer to post 1950 classical music, as opposed to earlier eras.

I would guess that the vast majority of bands have members that graduated from top conservatories (I actually did a quick survey on about a dozen avant-prog bands and found this to be the case).

Here is how the Progarchives site describes this subgenre:

*Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.

Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons.
*

Here are a couple of examples:

Aranis from Belgium. The leader (concert bassist), the flautist, the violinist, and the keyboardist all graduated from conservatories such as, Royal Flemish Conservatoire and Music Academy of Lier, and others.






Art Zoyd, from France.






Motor Totemist Guild from USA.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Simon Moon said:


> - Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
> - Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
> - Free or experimental improvisation.
> - Fusion of disparate musical genres.
> - Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.


You forgot "very instrumental, plays violins and pianos." As such features in your video choices, this seems a very superficial feature if you ask me.

It's not the first time above I've seen something alien from the Classical era fit Classical more than a lot of popular orchestra music does.

There were people last week comparing the magnificence of the Pet Sounds album to Schubert's song cycles. We might as well define Classical as any music intriguingly complex enough to warrant many listens.

If Classical is comprised of most good music and disfavors bad music, you might as well define the genre as any good music.

I'd like to see where Pet Sounds places in our TC's Most Highly Recommended Classical List. Forget there being The 3 Bs, there are 5 more.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> I didn't say "entirely separate" as styles of music - but they developed entirely differently. Blues musicians were somewhat influenced by white musicians. White hillbiilly music was played by black string bands, and then later blacks, even back when slaves, heard whites playing classical music and learned the same hymns.
> 
> But the influence went both ways.
> 
> ...


Why so black and white??


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Dan Ante said:


> Interesting but it is as near to classical as is ragtime.


Well, classical music is very close to ragtime sometimes - ask Gershwin!


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> But for the purposes of this thread - there is absolutely no guarantee that someone whose primary musical love is classical music would find anything in jazz to enjoy.


I have found exactly the opposite in real life, our music group has only one member that has not followed Jazz and one who is now exploring it, I know I am talking of only about twelve - fourteen people and would be interested to hear from others that mix with friends to listen to classical music


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I came to progressive rock music much later in life, as I started to listen (and play) mostly exclusively classical music at young age. So it definitely helps to see common facets between the two genres you enjoy and listen with an open mind than a hero of hundreds of memes: "Classical and rock music have nothing in common. Change my mind".

By the way, some rock musicians actually notated their compositions (scores). Zappa, anyone? This is very classical approach in my book.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Azol said:


> Well, classical music is very close to ragtime sometimes - ask Gershwin!


I thought George had passed away but if you consider that ragtime is classical fair enough.. how about boogie woogie ?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Dan Ante said:


> I thought George had passed away but if you consider that ragtime is classical fair enough.. how about boogie woogie ?


If modern composer decides to include one into his work - why not? If you insist on drawing lines then more power to you, but you have to accept these imaginary lines do not exist for others.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Jazz came from a completely different tradition from Western European classical music. Jazz is an outgrowth of blues music, which is the musical expression of the Negro experience in America. European classical music comes from an entirely separate historical tradition. To the extent people find something in jazz which they think of as reflective of classical music they are looking for the wrong things in jazz.


Actually jazz, for the last century or so, has been deeply influenced by European art music in its harmonic and melodic language. It's pretty much a perfect fusion of European, African American, and other traditions.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

There is no music genre that's close to or anything like classical music. ***

*** To be added to "Unpopular Opinion" thread in 4, 3, 2 ...


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

The album Abbey Road is another example of similar classical elements.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

EdwardBast said:


> Actually jazz, for the last century or so, has been deeply influenced by European art music in its harmonic and melodic language. It's pretty much a perfect fusion of European, African American, and other traditions.


This is my understanding (and in turn jazz has been greatly influential on classical music over the past few decades). To treat them as coming from "completely different traditions" is a bit absurd. Besides, a substantial part of American culture (yes, even of the so-called "African American experience") is derived / assimilated from European tradition.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

if jazz is "far from classical", then Telemann was a jazzman


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## Christine (Sep 29, 2020)

There is a very peculiar phenomenon re: John Williams. Some people say he stole or "took" elements of his Star Wars music from Holst's Planets. But then there's another camp who thinks he took the SAME themes from a DIFFERENT composer such as Korngold. A third group thinks he took his Star Wars themes from yet a THIRD composer. Other people think Williams stole the SAME themes from ... yet ANOTHER composer. And so on and on. According to this premise, many classical composers copied Star Wars-sounding music from each other!! 

People think Williams stole the shark theme from Rite of Spring. But if you listen to Dvorak 9, the shark theme is smack in there at the beginning of one of the movements. So does this mean Stravinsky stole from Dvorak? As a matter of fact...there's a part in Shosty #11 that sounds eerily like the heavy strings of one of the shark theme variations. 

As for those two notes over and over in the Tatooine desert, is it not possible for two composers to come up with the same two notes, all on their own? Even if they're arranged very similarly? It's only two notes!

Bottom line: Composing has a finite element, in that more than one composer is capable of coming up with similar melodies and arrangements. Of course, the longer and more complex the segment of music, the less likely it was independently conceived by two composers, whereas one would likely have borrowed. But more basic, rudimentary compositions such as Darth Vader's theme...apparently, Williams copied this from at least FIVE DIFFERENT classical composers!!!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Christine said:


> People think Williams stole the shark theme from Rite of Spring. But if you listen to Dvorak 9, the shark theme is smack in there at the beginning of one of the movements. So does this mean Stravinsky stole from Dvorak? As a matter of fact...there's a part in Shosty #11 that sounds eerily like the heavy strings of one of the shark theme variations.


Prokofiev, _Alexander Nevsky_, Battle on the Ice. Case closed.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Dan Ante said:


> I thought George had passed away but if you consider that ragtime is classical fair enough.. how about boogie woogie ?


Well, there's that syncopated variation in the Arietta movement of Beethoven's final piano sonata . . .


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Interesting that no one has mentioned the American musical theatre, which had its roots in operetta, which stems from opera. Occasionally the categories blur: _Porgy and Bess_ has been staged as a musical, even though it's an opera, and _Sweeney Todd_ has been staged as an opera, even though it's a musical.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I'm a bit close minded with my music - only really listen to classical. But which genre would you say is the most similar and can reach similar levels of enjoyment with?_

Film scores though most contemporary scores are heavily influenced by minimalism which may or may not still be a style. Band music, meaning concert band or military band, is also similar. A lot of classical music is written or re-written for band.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Fabulin said:


> if jazz is "far from classical", then Telemann was a jazzman


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cl...en/was-black-twitter-debates-african-heritage
Was Beethoven black? Twitter debates German composer's true heritage
22 June 2020


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Azol said:


> If modern composer decides to include one into his work - why not? If you insist on drawing lines then more power to you, but you have to accept these imaginary lines do not exist for others.


Well Azol, we move in different circles.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

MarkW said:


> Just a quick question: I always thought that late Beatles was musically interesting, but I have never bothered to ask: How much of the examples you have given was the work of the original composer (Lennon/McCartney/whomever) and how much was that of an inspired producer/arranger either with or without the group's input? (I never knew the horn in Penny Lane was Alan Civil!)


Alan Civil played the very high French horn solo in For No One on the Revolver album (the one before Sergeant Pepper's; I didn't know about Penny Lane.) Didn't he become the top British horn player after the death of Dennis Brain?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cl...en/was-black-twitter-debates-african-heritage
> Was Beethoven black? Twitter debates German composer's true heritage
> 22 June 2020


Hilarious! It really brightened up my evening 

And reminded me of this:








Finally someone more controversial than Furtwängler!


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

re: John Williams, _Star Wars_

Huge _Star Wars_ fan here. The original _SW_ trilogy was part of my coming age, and I'm still caught up in the _Star Wars_ message, mythology, and the classically-inspired score. According to an interview that came with my old VHS set of the original _SW_ trilogy; Williams composed the score using "tempt tracts" so Lucas would tell Williams that I want the music for this scene to sound like Wagner's _Miestersinger Overture_; I want the music scene to sound like Debussy's _Afternoon of a Faun_; I want the Cantina Band to sound like Benny Goodman; etc. Whether or not Lucas made references to Holst's _Planets_, I don't know, but there are enough parallels to support the assumption. In any case, Lucas made no bones about he and Williams drawing directly and quite unabashedly from the well of what the classical masters had already done.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

amfortas said:


> Well, there's that syncopated variation in the Arietta movement of Beethoven's final piano sonata . . .


Are you saying that one of the variations is boogie woogie


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

There is nothing that distinguishes free form experimental jazz with modern/contemporary classical music. The only difference is that one is written down and one is more improvisatory.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Dan Ante said:


> Are you saying that one of the variations is boogie woogie


He's not the first to have come to that conclusion:


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Fabulin said:


> Hilarious! It really brightened up my evening
> 
> And reminded me of this:
> View attachment 144986
> ...


Loox like a POC 2 me...Idk


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

flamencosketches said:


> He's not the first to have come to that conclusion:


"So ecstasy, yes; boogie woogie, no." --Andras Schiff

You know you want them *both*, Andras.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

To be a bit redundant, I am still having a hard time understanding how one could not notice the similarities between avant-prog, and later 20th century classical music, as I previously stated in post #53.

I would say the line between many of the bands that fit the avant-prog subgenre, and contemporary classical music ensembles, is pretty thin. Yet, there is enough to differentiate them. Electric guitars, electric basses, drum kits, electronic keys, are some of the differences (instruments more typical of rock music), yet the avant-prog bands tend to use many instruments more typical to classical, also: cello, violin, oboes, bassoons, flutes, horns. They also tend to be large ensembles, where 8-10 members is not unusual. Maybe another difference is that these bands perform all their own music, where classical ensembles perform other composers' music?

The similarities these bands exhibit to classical, seem to me, to be much more organic in their: makeup, composition, musicianship, instrumentation, etc. It's not like the Beatles, tacking on (very successfully, mind you), classical strings or a harpsichord onto a pop song.

Now, I am not saying that anyone here will like these bands (considering how the majority of members feel about post 1950's classical music), but I think their closeness to classical, is pretty unmistakable. Much more obvious than a lot of what is being mentioned by others.

Here are some more examples:

Aranis






Univers Zero


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> He's not the first to have come to that conclusion:





amfortas said:


> "So ecstasy, yes; boogie woogie, no." --Andras Schiff
> 
> You know you want them *both*, Andras.


 You class that as Boogie ?? Even Schiff said it was not boogie.
Listen to a master of boogie "Winifred Atwell" in particular the left hand, now that's boogie!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> I think it is far easier for whites to exaggerate the influence of European classical or any kind of white music on jazz than to acknowledge that jazz is almost entirely the product of black musicians.
> 
> But for the purposes of this thread - there is absolutely no guarantee that someone whose primary musical love is classical music would find anything in jazz to enjoy.


In the 1920s and 30s American jazz players in Paris were exposed to the work of Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Debussy, Les Six and others, most of whom were working in France during that time and several of whom frequented clubs in which jazz was performed. The rise of extended tertian harmony in jazz neatly correlates with this exposure, don't you think? Is this a coincidence?


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> In the 1920s and 30s American jazz players in Paris were exposed to the work of Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Debussy, Les Six and others, most of whom were working in France during that time and several of whom frequented clubs in which jazz was performed. The rise of extended tertian harmony in jazz neatly correlates with this exposure, don't you think? Is this a coincidence?


Yes, the influence went both ways. Of course Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis etc. were all classically trained. Charlie Parker, the inventor of bebop, was obsessed with Stravinsky. Bill Evans got his signature sound from the influence of Debussy in his piano playing. The influence of classical on jazz musicians turning the genre into "serious" music was enormous.


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## Christine (Sep 29, 2020)

Coach G said:


> re: John Williams, _Star Wars_
> 
> Huge _Star Wars_ fan here. The original _SW_ trilogy was part of my coming age, and I'm still caught up in the _Star Wars_ message, mythology, and the classically-inspired score. According to an interview that came with my old VHS set of the original _SW_ trilogy; Williams composed the score using "tempt tracts" so Lucas would tell Williams that I want the music for this scene to sound like Wagner's _Miestersinger Overture_; I want the music scene to sound like Debussy's _Afternoon of a Faun_; I want the Cantina Band to sound like Benny Goodman; etc. Whether or not Lucas made references to Holst's _Planets_, I don't know, but there are enough parallels to support the assumption. In any case, Lucas made no bones about he and Williams drawing directly and quite unabashedly from the well of what the classical masters had already done.


But that's only for Star Wars, and perhaps he borrowed the shark themes (there are several) from Rite of Spring, or was it Dvorak 9? Or was it Shostakovich 11?

Don't forget that Williams scored many other films. When people want to point out he borrowed, copied or "stole," they always use Star Wars as an example. The music he composed for the scene in JAWS 2, where two people are scuba diving, is enthralling, led by a harp. This is before the divers get attacked. There is no classical music (and I've listened to a LOT) that this scuba diver music resembles. The same for his music in many other films including Raiders, and even much of the music during various Star Wars scenes like the "Asteroid Field." Now THAT is great music, and sounds nothing like any classical I've listened to. If Williams based some of the Star Wars music on the classics (and I'll admit, the "City in the Clouds" music resembles the Neptune movement in "Planets," ) we can still definitely say that nearly all of his other music is his very own. If he were born in the 19th century, he'd be considered one of the great classical composers. Composers create what their era has a demand for. If Mahler were born -- in the U.S. -- the year Korngold was born, the possibilities can only be imagined.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Christine said:


> But that's only for Star Wars, and perhaps he borrowed the shark themes (there are several) from Rite of Spring, or was it Dvorak 9? Or was it Shostakovich 11?


More likely an old film music code for a monster or its shadow creeping closer and closer, such as in Franz Waxman's music. In fact, Steven Spielberg reacted at the E-F motif initially with a laughter, because when played at the piano it made him think of some sort of mickeymousing in cartoons, without realizing how terrifying this can be when done more seriously.

As for orchestration, it's a simple idea in the bassline that couldn't be played by brass, because brass is already playing other ideas, such as a virtuosic high tuba reference to Bernard Herrmann's '"Moby Dick" incoming' trumpet motif rescued from his rather unknown 1938 cantata of the same name. Strings are numerous and harder to identify as a single source of sound than a pair or group of wind instruments would be, which is very unsettling.

Really effective music is a bit like equations, and when equations tell you the strings need to, at some point, play Stravinsky-style, you can either write less effective music for the sake of some humdrum purity of "one combination, one composition", or pay a homage to Stravinsky...

Stravinsky didn't care either when he did the same with music of other Russians. His music needed these particular sounds, so he took them over. The result likewise was very effective.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Gallus said:


> Yes, the influence went both ways. Of course Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis etc. were all classically trained. Charlie Parker, the inventor of bebop, was obsessed with Stravinsky. Bill Evans got his signature sound from the influence of Debussy in his piano playing. The influence of classical on jazz musicians turning the genre into "serious" music was enormous.


Charlie Parker also loved Hank Williams and country music. Was that an influence too? He was just curious about all kinds of music, but his style, like all jazz, came out of the blues primarily, and his method of soloing over changes instead of off the melody. Oh, and Duke Ellington (nor Monk) was not "classically trained." He had a few weeks of piano lessons as a small child but quit and was almost entirely self-taught. Miles was at Juilliard for a few months (it got him to New York which is where Charlie Parker was), but quit because, as he said, "what they were teaching me was white and I wasn't interested in that."


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

J Williams is better than a lot of Classical composers. I wouldn't say the best ones.

Compare his horizontal form with Bach. Bach sometimes reaches about 3 or 4 minutes with his pieces, one track progressing into the other, and each time it's kind of like hearing a story scene with a variation each time. So I'm only saying, it's acceptable to write short works.

I don't really know what originality has to do with being a Classical composer; I guess it's some maker, but not a primary one. One reason people say Williams isn't original is because he was 'born too late' to make great music or something. How about in 200 years. Are people going to be listening to Varese instead of Williams? I think Williams more occasionally.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> Williams is better than a lot of Classical composers. I wouldn't say the best ones.
> 
> Compare his horizontal form with Bach. Bach sometimes reaches about 3 or 4 minutes with his pieces, one track progressing into the other, and each time it's kind of like hearing a story scene with a variation each time.
> 
> I don't really know what originality has to do with being a Classical composer; I guess it's some maker, but not a primary one. One reason people say Williams isn't original is because he was 'born too late' to make great music or something. How about in 200 years. Are people going to be listening to Varese instead of Williams? I think Williams more occasionally.


How many people listen to John Williams music other than as they watch a movie? Which I guess would relate to how long his music will last, i.e. how long will the movies last?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Although, does great film necessarily equate to great music? I think Mulholland Dr. is a much better film than anything Williams worked on, and people like that music too. It's just not my cup of tea.

Are a lot of classical composers really unique and inventive? Moreso, it's their good craft that made them outlast the creative types before them. For example, Bach and Brahms didn't use to be so highly regarded because their music resembled the style of those before them that was going out of style. It wasn't until all these composers finally went out of style that people realized, "hey but Bach / Brahms were pretty great."

Some may come along and do much better than Williams' and Uematsu's symphonic work. Some have in various ways.

But more likely, once the film era dies and is replaced with say, virtual reality programs, people will warm into these symphonic works more, because they will sound more unique and classical and others won't want to compose in that route.

In another light, Classical composers with their brilliant form seem easier to tamper and play around with to evolve the music in creative ways. Maybe that's where the listening appeal comes from subconsciously, it hits a perfect and continuous medium. With Williams' and Uematsu's symphonic work it sounds more like you have to start from scratch because the form is more simple and final to be able to work with more.


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## Christine (Sep 29, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> How many people listen to John Williams music other than as they watch a movie? Which I guess would relate to how long his music will last, i.e. how long will the movies last?


I have listened to several Williams' soundtracks tons of times -- long after I saw the movie. I saw "Raiders" only once, but subsequent to that, listened to the track many times. Same with the first three "Star Wars" films. This doesn't mean I love every single music scene. For instance, I hate the cantina band music and always skipped that part on the vinyl record. The music in "Jaws" that accompanies the scene showing all the tourists arriving to Amity Island, I've always skipped that too. But over and over I'd listen to most of the other scenes. The heck with viewing the movie. I also have the track for "Superman" and "Jaws II." I wasn't impressed enough with "Jurassic Park," "Close Encounters" or "ET" to buy those. His older works include "Poseidon Adventure," "Earthquake" and the TV show "Lost in Space." For any music he borrowed or copied, this is only half a percent of all he's composed.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_There is a very peculiar phenomenon re: John Williams. Some people say he stole or "took" elements of his Star Wars music from Holst's Planets. But then there's another camp who thinks he took the SAME themes from a DIFFERENT composer such as Korngold._

I just read something that said Bruckner's 6th symphony was the thematic source for the Star Wars theme.

I like film music but have never found anything by Williams very good or very satisfying. It tends to be loud and abrasive to me, not to mention superficial. I realize superficial is a characterization that can be applied to almost any film music but it seems more so to me with Williams than others.

This is especially true when he is compared to the better (in my opinion) well-known composer of his time, Jerry Goldsmith. He composed more effectively in far more realms of music from film noor-ish (City of Fear 1959) to 12 tone (Planet of the Apes 1971) to American expressionism (Alien 1979) to Williams-like high arc-march-military-horns blazing (Patton 1970) to traditional adventures scores (The Wind and The Lion 1976). He also wrote classical music, won 18 Oscars and many other awards for his wide-ranging scores.

I think Williams get mentioned a lot because he wrote Star Wars and a lot of other popular music people have seen in films, many with catchy tunes. If you listen to five of his scores non-stop, as I have, you'll hear how much they all sound alike. Compared to Goldsmith he is one-dimensional.


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## Christine (Sep 29, 2020)

larold said:


> _There is a very peculiar phenomenon re: John Williams. Some people say he stole or "took" elements of his Star Wars music from Holst's Planets. But then there's another camp who thinks he took the SAME themes from a DIFFERENT composer such as Korngold._
> 
> I just read something that said Bruckner's 6th symphony was the thematic source for the Star Wars theme.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I actually have the soundtrack to Alien (1979), and was dismayed that Goldsmith did not score its sequel. Williams DOES have a signature sound, but can still be quite variegated. Our brains all interpret what we hear differently.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

larold said:


> This is especially true when he is compared to the better (in my opinion) well-known composer of his time, Jerry Goldsmith. He composed more effectively in far more realms of music from film noor-ish (City of Fear 1959) to 12 tone (Planet of the Apes 1971) to American expressionism (Alien 1979) to Williams-like high arc-march-military-horns blazing (Patton 1970) to traditional adventures scores (The Wind and The Lion 1976). He also wrote classical music, won 18 Oscars and many other awards for his wide-ranging scores.
> 
> I think Williams get mentioned a lot because he wrote Star Wars and a lot of other popular music people have seen in films, many with catchy tunes. If you listen to five of his scores non-stop, as I have, you'll hear how much they all sound alike. Compared to Goldsmith he is one-dimensional.


He also did the music for Chinatown. A bluesy jazz score (jazz being my answer to the question posed in this thread). To me, Williams music is derivative. Goldsmith is incredibly original.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes, I agree. Goldsmith was in a class of his own, above all others. Then I would put Williams and Herrmann next, then everyone else below that.

Williams to me seems to always have that polished sound with a bright “sheen” to it, not only from the brightness in orchestration, but the frequent use of major seventh chords with the seventh and root next to each other in the voicings as well as the “bright” lydian mode, etc. He orchestrates with a lot of the same techniques over and over again. Like the preference of octave doublings over unisons, especially 3 and 4 octaves in the strings and winds. And incessant scalar runs using the same scales over and over, like modes, harmonic minor, and octatonic. There’s a lot of Ravelian triadic planing in the harmonies and ostinatos and various figures. One could go on and on with a lot of his stock cliches, even in his atonal writing. He maybe has about a dozen of them that he tends to reuse.

One thing I get tired of hearing in Hollywood orchestral writing is the scoring of orchestral or choir tutti chords (always triads) voiced in superposition, generally following score order and the harmonic series. Even Williams does this most of the time (although one example of inventive scoring is the opening chord to Star Wars). I think it is because of the lack of time to come up with something more interesting and colorful. In classical music scores of the masters (even in Mozart), but especially the Romantics, you see much more inventive ways of scoring chords depending on context, such as overlapping, interlocking, and enclosing.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Anyway, Goldsmith was a genius. Especially when it came to spotting a film. But yes, unlike any other composer, he used every technique available in a composer’s arsenal to find the right music for a scene. He is one of the only a very few composers I am aware of who wrote cues using strict 12-tone technique. Not only in Planet of the Apes, but he used the technique in The Illustrated Man, The Omen (the entire cue “The Demise of Mrs. Baylock”), Freud, and Escape from Planet of the Apes. He also had the guts to use quartal and quintal harmony quite regularly, something practically no one else including Williams ever did. To me, his atonal music has more structure, depth, and cohesion than most others who write more randomly. His scores often had a rhythmic complexity that no others would dare imitate. He often used odd and mixed meters favoring 5/8 and 7/8 and 3/8 meters changing almost every bar. He could write very simple music too with some of the best melodies and chords ever written for film. I like his melodies much more than Williams’. They seem more natural and not as formulaic. Star Trek was brilliant in that he was told to come up with a theme that suggested Star Wars but couldn’t sound anything like it. That’s a very difficult task, but he did it wonderfully.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

larold said:


> . . . I think Williams get mentioned a lot because he wrote Star Wars and a lot of other popular music people have seen in films, many with catchy tunes. If you listen to five of his scores non-stop, as I have, you'll hear how much they all sound alike. Compared to Goldsmith he is one-dimensional.


Having listened to a lot of Williams and Goldsmith scores, I do not agree with this statement. While I admit that there is a kind of signature Williams "sound" (or a series of sounds), I don't think it is fair to say that any five of his scores really sound all that much alike. (His marches may tend to share certain characteristics.) It may be suggested that Goldsmith tended to be more experimental, but he also was often faced with less expensive instrumental forces.



Christine said:


> For what it's worth, I actually have the soundtrack to Alien (1979), and was dismayed that Goldsmith did not score its sequel. Williams DOES have a signature sound, but can still be quite variegated. Our brains all interpret what we hear differently.


I recall that, at least early on, Horner was considered the poor man's substitute for Goldsmith. That may or may not have been fair, but he was probably cheaper at the time, and sequels usually had smaller budgets.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Whether or not John Williams ripped off too much from what others had already done is immaterial to me. The man does his job well as a composer for movies, and has made my cinema-graphic experience the better for it. I can't imagine the _Star Wars_ message and mythology without Williams' score being integral to the fabric of it.

I have one CD of Williams' works as a straight-up classical composer with some pieces for cello and orchestra that he wrote for Yo-Yo Ma. It's solid, well-crafted, and mildly entertaining. But why not just celebrate Williams for what he does best?


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

And Goldsmith, too, like any composer had his certain sounds he reused as well throughout his career. Such as the signature Goldsmith unison Violin I and II souring melodic line at the top of the treble clef staff. Very common. And those little unison hits and figures in the upper winds and xylophone were also very common.

One great contribution I think he made to orchestration was making the synthesizer/multiple synths a regular section of the orchestra, equal to all other choirs. He treated them as if they were a regular part of the orchestra and not as some kind of effects afterthought.

The only downside to that, however, was that I think he shoehorned it in to some scores when it was not completely appropriate. Like in the film Hoosiers. To me, the synths were prevalent and were a distraction because they did not fit the time period of the film (America in the 1950s). I get that he was going for dramatic effect alone (it was taking a nostalgic, almost fantasy-like approach), but to me, destroyed some of the realism. He was nominated for an Oscar for it, so what do I know? Oh heck, I would of nominated him anyway too, the score was so good


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Dan Ante said:


> You class that as Boogie ?? Even Schiff said it was not boogie.
> Listen to a master of boogie "Winifred Atwell" in particular the left hand, now that's boogie!


No, I don't. It's Beethoven. The point is that enough people have made that comparison for András to discuss it in the video, and that I can see where they are coming from.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> No, I don't. It's Beethoven. The point is that enough people have made that comparison for András to discuss it in the video, and that I can see where they are coming from.


What are you on about? What is close to or classed as classical ?


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