# Brahms and Wagner... What if ?



## arikauf67 (Jan 24, 2021)

Consider for a moment. If Brahms and Wagner were the same composer (i.e., if all of the compositions by Brahms and Wagner were actually composed by one person), where would that composer rank among the all time greats? Would this composer WagnerBrahms be considered greater than Bach, Mozart or Beethoven?


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Not greater than Beethoven.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

OMG. I teach 5th and 6th graders. All I ever hear is "What If...":lol:

edit: Welcome to the forum!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

It would call for a new order:

1. Bach
2. Wagner/Brahms
3. Mozart
4. Beethoven

That looks about right.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Well, you made me go *and buy this*.

I mean, it's all just good clean fun. But it's also really just a bit silly. In music, doubly so.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

I'm with arikauf on this one. You'd have to be a couple of sandwiches short of a pinic not to put a Brahms/ Wagner disco mix above everything other than Beethoven....
..... but what about a Puccini/Bartok love child.... that's gotta be top 5 surely


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

The new ranking would be:

1. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Richaness Wrahms
2...
3...
4...

Yes, the Holy Trinity would now become "The Holy Quaternity".


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

No. 4 + No. 10-12 > No. 3?

I don't think so... even if "His Richardness, Johan Brahmwagner" sounds kind of great.

But that sparked a more interesting question in my mind. Can I see _any _pair of composers, who combined could have made it onto the podium?

I think that combining Berlioz with someone like Chopin or Tchaikovsky could have made for a great composite composer.

Or Debussy and Stravinsky in one person... <shivers>


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Imagine if in the future we can reactivate the DNA of dead composers and mix them together. We could create a Composer Park on some island in the pacific.... What could go wrong... I'm phoning Jeff Goldblum and Dicky Attenberg leider tommorrow


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Since Brahms is my no. 1, the question becomes whether him also composing Wagner's works could somehow make him substantially worse.

I think the answer is no.

Now a more interesting question is what the music of a composer who combined Brahms's sense of craftsmanship with Wagner's drawn out sense of drama would sound like... kind of like Bruckner maybe?

Would it work? Or would it be overly saturated?


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

jdec said:


> ...Richaness Wrahms...


I wonder what happened to this fella. His polls were not too shabby.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Yes, the hypothetical composer would rank #1 in my book of musical preferences today, followed by Beethoven, Bach and Mozart.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

1. Beethoven
2. WagnerBrahms
3. Bach
4. Mozart


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

If he composed music of Brahms and Wagner, he would certainly be a Bragger. Or a Brogner.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Now a more interesting question is what the music of a composer who combined Brahms's sense of craftsmanship with Wagner's drawn out sense of drama would sound like... kind of like Bruckner maybe?


Sorry, if that's the case, I'll have both as separate entities any day. :lol:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The holy trinity is not valid for me (my top 3 is Bach/Mahler/Brahms). Adding Wagner to Brahms would definitely move him to the #2 spot and quite possibly to #1.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Brahms and Wagner were two of the greatest composers of all time, and maybe the two greatest composers of their own times; so of course, of they were the same composer they'd be a musical powerhouse in every genre (Brahms did not compose operas, and Wagner did not compose symphonies unless you count the early symphony that nobody ever listens to). 

On the other hand, Arnold Schoenberg saw himself as a synthesis between Wagner and Brahms. His twelve tone system was supposed represent the finest German craftsmanship, as with Brahms; and retain the expressive power of Wagner. Though he is seen by most as Ultra-Modern, Schoenberg saw himself as a traditionalist, the synthesis of Brahms and Wagner and the next logical step in the German musical tradition. 

So if Brahms and Wagner were Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and composed unaware of the other persona, they'd be the greatest composer sans maybe Bach, Mozart or Beethoven; but if they're personalities were integrated and they were composing at the same time, it might have become something completely different from either one of them.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

The combined composer would get kicked lower down the scale. Brahms was a very good composer (although not an all time great), Wagner was not. The combined composer would sink lower down in the rankings.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

A silly speculation. Those two musics could not come from the same person --unless he was profoundly schizophrenic.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

MarkW said:


> A silly speculation. Those two musics could not come from the same person --unless he was profoundly schizophrenic.


It would be a case of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formally Multiple Personality Disorder); albeit DID is still a controversial diagnosis. Schizophrenia is a severe psychotic disorder that typically involves auditory hallucinations, disorganized thinking, paranoia, ideas of reference, social withdrawal, poor hygiene, etc.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Coach G said:


> It would be a case of Dissociative Identity Disorder (formally Multiple Personality Disorder); albeit DID is still a controversial diagnosis. Schizophrenia is a severe psychotic disorder that typically involves auditory hallucinations, disorganized thinking, paranoia, ideas of reference, social withdrawal, poor hygiene, etc.


And your point is?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Would this composer WagnerBrahms be considered greater than Bach, Mozart or Beethoven?


No. They/it would just occupy one slot in my lower top 10 or so rather than two.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

This would be:

1. Liszt
2. R. Strauss
3. Beethoven
4. Brawag. :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's hard to imagine a fusion of two composers who differ so fundamentally in their approach to musical form. The nearest music actually came to such a fusion might be the work of Mahler, whose symphonic movements often have the aspect of dramatic musical narratives. Wagner himself was very conscious that symphonic thinking was different from dramatic thinking, and actually cautioned composers against trying to duplicate his drama-driven effects in the context of absolute music. He did express a desire to compose symphonies after his final opera _Parsifal;_ he wrote to Liszt about a new kind of symphonic form involving some notion of thematic metamorphosis, but death prevented him from showing us what he had in mind.

Brahms admired and studied Wagner's music, but showed no inclination to go down the road of musical drama. I really can't imagine what a Brahms opera would be like, and apparently neither could he.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

MarkW said:


> unless he was profoundly schizophrenic.


Just by looking at his face 








you can tell he's profoundly schizophrenic


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

Hard to say what would have happened, but perhaps we would have ended with more music like Brahms's cantata _Rinaldo _- not his finest work.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


>


The background is blurry of course, but still... her hands look so much older than the rest of her.


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

just below Einaudi


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

cybernaut said:


> just below Einaudi


That could be interesting to hear then, because I`ve never heard anything below Einaudi.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wouldn't work . This would be like combining matter and anti matter . Complete and utter destruction !


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

superhorn said:


> Wouldn't work . This would be like combining matter and anti matter . Complete and utter destruction !


So what would happen if I played Wagner's _Ring_ in one ear and Brahms' symphonies in the other? Would it create a black hole in my brain?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What if Wagner and Mahler were the same composer?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

SixFootScowl said:


> What if Wagner and Mahler were the same composer?


This hypothetical composer would still be my #1.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Coach G said:


> So what would happen if I played Wagner's _Ring_ in one ear and Brahms' symphonies in the other? Would it create a black hole in my brain?


It would create a black hole in one ear and a white hole in the other, and a wormhole tunnel connecting between them straight through your brain, causing instant death. Don't try this at home.



superhorn said:


> Complete and utter destruction !


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner alone is already #1. Defiling Wagner's oeuvre by adding Brahms' music would drop him down into the lower 'teens. WagnerBrahms would merely be "Wagner with uninspired, bad days".


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Not really . I just meant to say that their musical styles are so vastly different as well as well as their esthetic views it would be impossible to combine them .


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Wagner could perk up Brahms with a bit of excitement. But Brahms would make Wagner so thick the music would never get off the ground.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Wagner alone is already #1. Defiling Wagner's oeuvre by adding Brahms' music would drop him down into the lower 'teens. WagnerBrahms would merely be "Wagner with uninspired, bad days".











ewww


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Brahms and Wagner, that would be advantageous to Brahms increasing his greatness.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I have come to think that green slug-like creatures favour Wagner over Brahms.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

deleted.....................


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