# How rampant is discrimination (sexism, racism, ageism) in the Classical Music?



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*How rampant is discrimination (sexism, racism, ageism) in Classical Music?*

Hello Everyone,

I came across this revealing yet disquieting article of a woman player for the Boston Symphony Orchestra (Elizabeth Rowe, the principal flutist) who's been receiving roughly $64,000 less than her male counterpart (John Ferrillo, the principal oboist). Seniority appears to be one of a number of factors: Ms. Rowe (age 44) has been with the orchestra for 14 years while Mr. Ferrillo (age 63) was there since 2001.

But as I read the article further, sexism _in particular_ is for real in the music making business, whether in regards to an orchestra (recall the Vienna Philharmonic), or opera houses, or in regards to record dealings. How bad it is in the classical music making industry that for long is known for being cutthroat? Do you think things are improving, and if so, to what extent. Solo performers may have greater bargaining power than those vying to be part of an ensemble or an opera or ballet company. Here's the article courtesy of the Washington Post.

-->https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...nder-pay-gap/?utm_term=.846c1627ef8d#comments


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is just about everywhere else, so I feel sure it will be in the CM industry. When other industries have addressed this discrimination then maybe CM will slowly begin to catch up.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

The isms are typically more prevalent in older, larger, eastern institutions, no matter how progressive they claim they are, so the BSO is no surprise. 

Seniority will always justify higher pay, unless we eliminate pay raises. Loyalty, dedication, and experience also add value. 

To avoid these issues, women form their own ensembles in other formats, early music, chamber music, modern music, etc... or pursue the excruciating path of the soloist or singer... where age and organizational bias can have less impact on earnings...


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Cases of horrifying discrimination, both current and historical, multiply just as fast as we continue to invent bad "isms." Lot of that going around these days!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

philoctetes said:


> The isms are typically more prevalent in older, larger, eastern institutions, no matter how progressive they claim they are, so the BSO is no surprise.
> 
> Seniority will always justify higher pay, unless we eliminate pay raises. Loyalty, dedication, and experience also add value.
> 
> *To avoid these issues, women form their own ensembles in other formats,* early music, chamber music, modern music, etc... or pursue the excruciating path of the soloist or singer... where age and organizational bias can have less impact on earnings...


If the men do this it's discrimination.


----------



## nobilmente (Dec 18, 2018)

"Blind" auditions are increasingly common, which should help in the longer term.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

If there was any real injustice done, then I wish it to be rectified. On the other hand, a 40 year old women files a lawsuit that her 60 years old collegue has a bigger pay and she claims that it is sexism. What evidence does she have that it indeed is sexism and she is being discriminated because of her gender? Why does she not compare her salary with other people of equal age?
The so called pay gap is largely a myth. As a scientist who works regularly with data, I am appalled at the way that the feminists arrive at their claims. They are either incredibly naive (I made a real effort to be polite here  or they consiously manipulate the data 
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> If the men do this it's discrimination.


Yeah, it's so unfair! We men can't have anything to ourselves any more! We actually have to meet in secret in basements and forest glens at midnight to keep women from spoiling everything. And will we ever crack that glass ceiling? The matriarchy is so oppressive!


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm just glad the symphony orchestra concert halls I frequent do not discriminate against the elderly. (Of course, if they did, they'd likely have very small audiences.)


----------



## nobilmente (Dec 18, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> I'm just glad the symphony orchestra concert halls I frequent do not discriminate against the elderly. (Of course, if they did, they'd likely have very small audiences.)


Hmm, well in some places political correctness and mandates for "diversity" is specifically doing that. White/pale/male/stale is specifically seen as something to be suppressed in favour of "relevant reaching out to [fill in the latest minority here]".

Some like rap, some like opera, some like snails, and some like steak. _De gustibus non est disputandum_.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Music and sports are about the last two institutions where skill and ability are the only things that _should_ matter in who gets hired or promoted. Add to that Capitalism 101: the scarcer the commodity, the higher the price. The oboist is right: there are many fine flute players available compared to the number of oboists. Playing oboe is much harder and the pool of talent shallower.

Is sexism rampant in the classical arena? No. In a lot of orchestras, especially those smaller ones in fly-over country, the majority of string players are women. Yes, the low brass is still male-dominated, but it's also changing. 50 years ago a female conductor was exceptionally rare; not so today.

If there is one area where discrimination is still rampant, it's the music director of large orchestras (and some smaller ones). For reasons good and bad, justified and not, symphony boards still prefer to hire male conductors from Europe, Russia, or even South America. The Big 5 (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland) are all headed by white men who aren't Americans. That's discrimination!


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Cases of horrifying discrimination, both current and historical, multiply just as fast as we continue to invent bad "isms." Lot of that going around these days!


Except for the word "horrifying" (which may refer _only_ to the case _description_, not _your feelings_), a rather non-committal observation.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah, it's so unfair! We men can't have anything to ourselves any more! We actually have to meet in secret in basements and forest glens at midnight to keep women from spoiling everything. And will we ever crack that glass ceiling? The matriarchy is so oppressive!


...and if you're going to smoke a cigar, please stay outside, 100 feet away from all basement and forest glen entrances.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jacck said:


> ...As a scientist who works regularly with data, I am appalled at the way that the feminists arrive at their claims. They are either incredibly naive (I made a real effort to be polite here  or they consciously manipulate the data


Feminists are also fond of re-writing history (now called herstory). They like to "de-genius" the famous "geniuses" of history, such as:
Einstein's first wife is the one who actually came up with relativity, not him.
Henry David Thoreau did not "rough it" at Walden Pond because his wife brought him pies and did his laundry while he was there.
Picasso was a great artist, but he treated women poorly.
Etc, etc.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, comparing principals with principals should provide for a leveler playing field than fourth row violinists with the concertmaster. I do think the gap at the BSO is significant, but remember that for decades the BSO's Doriot Anthony Dwyer (flute) was the only female principal in a major orchestra in the country. Things getting better, but too slowly. 40 years ago a suit like this would never have been considered. That it can go forward and be debated seriously is progress, whatever the outcome.

With blind auditions, racism hardly exists (except maybe in the Green Room). And agism works the other way with senior members whose skills have eroded being more difficult to dismiss than in the past -- when Toscanini could hold up two fingers ("two-week's notice") in the middle of a concert.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think feminism made more inroads back in the 60s-70s-80s. 

The resurgence of old-school femininity and more overt sexuality seems to have taken over the collective psyches of young girls: fly girls, corsets, super-tight "jeans" which are ubiquitous now, skimpy running gear, the Kardashians, social media "selfies" which are too sexy.

Women now manifest a contradiction: they want the "me too" movement, and political power, and equal wages, yet they still want to retain the old "in your face" sexualized attire and heavy makeup of the past. 

I frequently look at women on TV, as newscasters and such, and observe how absurd it would be if men "sexualized" their attire and wore makeup. Maybe that's what will equalize everything: men wearing makeup and acting fey.


----------



## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Whining about feminism when 3 billion women have to battle systemic inequity is pretty warped. I've known pegboxes with more empathy.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I have no knowledge of who gets paid what but it seems that there are plenty of female musician s in CM. Lacking is female composers and conductors. Racism, I don't know what to think about. There are many Asian performers but not many of any other races. But is that availability? 

Ageism I definitely don t see in CM. And that is one I always notice if there.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> There are many Asian performers but not many of any other races.


If there is a country that is going to be the salvation of Classical Music, it's China. I've played two concert tours there, going to cities people have never heard of. They have fabulous, huge concert halls. The audiences are enthusiastic and large. I toured a violin maker in China who said that China has more students learning violin than America has students. The big concert hall in Beijing has a wonderful classical record store that would be a welcome asset in any American or European city. In Japan, CM is held in very high esteem and again crowds are large. It's no wonder that many major European and American orchestras love to go to Asia: they're the rock stars.

I've also played tours in Mexico and Brazil - and those countries have terrific CM traditions, too. Many fine orchestras, enthusiastic audiences. Some fine conductors, singers and instrumentalists - and composers! - have come from Latin America. It's hard to reconcile having classical concerts when there's so much grinding poverty in Mexico and Brazil and does seem to be entertainment for the elite. The middle east and Africa seem to have not taken to CM, although in some wealthy Arab countries things are changing. But will they ever produce their own performers? I don't know. That part of the world is so unstable that CM is probably the least important consideration.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_ The resurgence of old-school femininity and more overt sexuality seems to have taken over the collective psyches of young girls: fly girls, corsets, super-tight "jeans" which are ubiquitous now, skimpy running gear, the Kardashians, social media "selfies" which are too sexy.

Women now manifest a contradiction: they want the "me too" movement, and political power, and equal wages, yet they still want to retain the old "in your face" sexualized attire and heavy makeup of the past.

I frequently look at women on TV, as newscasters and such, and observe how absurd it would be if men "sexualized" their attire and wore makeup. Maybe that's what will equalize everything: men wearing makeup and acting fey. _

I guess someone had to say these things if for no other reason than to ensure the cave man philosophy of women still exists and is with us right here in this forum.

I doubt the person in question dressed in a way described here; I've never seen any woman in classical music dressed this way other than on the cover of some old LPs from the 1970s.

I hope this person isn't too shocked to learn that male television newscasters, broadcasters and actors *do *wear makeup and dress to sexualize themselves.


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2018)

As rampant in classical music and at Talk Classical as everywhere else, apparently.

Recent media coverage about racism in football (in the UK) would lead one to conclude that because the powers that be had launched a campaign to Kick Out Racism, it had been eliminated, until some jerks at one game were caught on TV making racist remarks, and now it's all back again!

We can do our best to eradicate its worst impacts - but to eradicate it entirely? That's somewhat over-optimistic.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

larold said:


> _ The resurgence of old-school femininity and more overt sexuality seems to have taken over the collective psyches of young girls: fly girls, corsets, super-tight "jeans" which are ubiquitous now, skimpy running gear, the Kardashians, social media "selfies" which are too sexy.
> 
> Women now manifest a contradiction: they want the "me too" movement, and political power, and equal wages, yet they still want to retain the old "in your face" sexualized attire and heavy makeup of the past.
> 
> ...


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

nobilmente said:


> "Blind" auditions are increasingly common, which should help in the longer term.


In the U.S. now pretty much all major orchestras have blind auditions.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

DavidA said:


> If the men do this it's discrimination.


Well, at least you didn't say "the same women who do that will complain if men do it".

Given a choice between young women forming their own groups, and having some say in their own careers, suits me better than having young women target their senior male colleagues over salary grievances.

I've been kicked for thinking like this so many times... but every time someone wants to hijack an institution's policies for their personal gain, there is often an alternative solution... one that would lead to real independence, strength, diversity... but political conquest, attacking the old, rather than starting up something new and vital, is often the mentality of those who can't see more than one month ahead in their lives... all it takes is enough money and insulation from opposition... usually, in the arts, the more the merrier...

I mean, if one would really rather hear men perform Hildegard, they could form their own Sequentia or Anonymous Four with men... and I wish them great success in their endeavors...


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

philoctetes said:


> Well, at least you didn't say "the same women who do that will complain if men do it".
> 
> Given a choice between young women forming their own groups, and having some say in their own careers, suits me better than having young women target their senior male colleagues over salary grievances.
> 
> ...


I think education in the US should be gender-separate, and in uniforms. That would stop all of the provoking and fighting.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

No discrimination on this site. You stupid 'people'! :lol:


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

There go millions... saying what we're not supposed to say, or even think!

Honestly, it's impossible to watch a TV commercial without getting crotch fatigue anymore. It's the guys crotches too, and we can blame cameramen who chop off the heads half the time. My video teacher in college would shame us if we centered on the body at all, but that was almost 50 years ago... 

I've gone numb to it. Anybody who hasn't seen that every Hollywood actress has to pass a "butt shot" standard, usually in the opening scene, or be doomed, must be absolutely blind. It was artful irony when it was Angie Dickenson heading for the bloody elevator, but usually it looks like nothing more than cheap thrills for the benefit of schoolboys.

I'm not sure who to blame for this. As long as women find success by following or repeating traditionally male-dictated patterns of entertainment, I think it's a toss-up. Sex sells, as they say.

As long as talent comes with a nice butt though, I won't complain. It's having to see every hack model in every TV commercial thrusting a groin that I can do without.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

They’re letting women play in orchestras!
My god they will be wanting to play golf next, crazy mixed up world.

:devil:


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Haydn man said:


> They're letting women play in orchestras!
> My god they will be wanting to play golf next, crazy mixed up world.
> 
> :devil:


the evil started when state started to force gender/race etc quotas on private employers, thus restricting their freedom to employ whom they want, under what circumstances they want and for whatever pay they want. If I don't want to employ women or blacks, because I had some bad experiences with them, why should the state force me to do so? I should have the freedom to emply whom I want, and anyone else should have the freedom to start his own business and employ whom he wants. In the US, the situation has gotten completely out of control with the identity politics.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The problem with "Me Too" is that it pretends that sex should be totally suppressed. The fact is, thee is an element of aggression in sex. Men should be allowed to "make a move," then be rebuffed without it destroying their career. Don't you think so, Philocetes?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

philoctetes said:


> I've been kicked for thinking like this so many times... but every time someone wants to hijack an institution's policies for their personal gain, there is often an alternative solution... one that would lead to real independence, strength, diversity... but political conquest, attacking the old, rather than starting up something new and vital, is often the mentality of those who can't see more than one month ahead in their lives... all it takes is enough money and insulation from opposition... usually, in the arts, the more the merrier...


In other words, it's all a power-grab. Nietzsche was right.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Merl said:


> No discrimination on this site. You stupid 'people'! :lol:
> 
> View attachment 110808


I think you'll find he was referring to his own MP for Peterborough....


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Haydn man said:


> They're letting women play in orchestras!
> My god they will be wanting to play golf next, crazy mixed up world.
> 
> :devil:


And after all that, they'll be expecting the right to vote. Good grief! What is the world coming to??? :devil::devil::devil: to the power of three


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> The problem with "Me Too" is that it pretends that sex should be totally suppressed. The fact is, thee is an element of aggression in sex. Men should be allowed to "make a move," then be rebuffed without it destroying their career. Don't you think so, Philocetes?


Make a Move is a pretty good Henry Threadgill album.


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

No, millions, you are a bit old-fashioned I'm afraid. The first move you make should not be physical if you're not sure. Ask first, get the approval, and THEN make a move. Men who don't are what "me too" should be about. One woman I know calls em "mashers".

I was half-joking about the crotch stuff, but it IS a real trend. I remember ten years ago reading about teenage girls obsessing over crotch gap, something that is not that common. So now we see crotch gap highlighted at every opportunity in today's fashion designs, image factories, and entertainment outlets. Men's clothing designs are becoming more like women's, to accentuate body outlines rather than versatility, and I find it harder to find clothes that fit the way I like. 

But if you're old enough to remember halter tops and hiphuggers, or tight designer jeans and extremely short shorts (even mens)... then none of this should seem all that new... the benefit of showing off is basically for young people and disapproving is for older people who don't show off any more.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I think feminism made more inroads back in the 60s-70s-80s.
> 
> The resurgence of old-school femininity and more overt sexuality seems to have taken over the collective psyches of young girls: fly girls, corsets, super-tight "jeans" which are ubiquitous now, skimpy running gear, the Kardashians, social media "selfies" which are too sexy.
> 
> ...


These recurring discussions of women in the music business are useful mainly in showing up the excruciating ignorance and prejudices of men. The above post is an extreme example of the cluelessness which keeps the issue current and confronting it necessary.

The idea that choosing to wear lipstick and tight jeans should disqualify a human being from aspiring to equal respect and an equal voice in society is not only completely illogical - the one thing has nothing to do with the other - but shows an astonishing incomprehension of the persistence of social roles and the power imbalances that lead to the casting couch and "me too." Having power enables you not to be caught in "contradictions," but if you do get caught you can just pretend they don't exist and be elected president (if you're a man).

By the way, male cosmetic surgery and body-building are huge industries, and growing. The pressure to be young and beautiful apparently weighs heavily on men now too. Our culture may be deranged in many ways, but being blindly and stubbornly reactionary will only increase the need for "political correctness."


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

"I frequently look at women on TV, as newscasters and such, and observe how absurd it would be if men "sexualized" their attire and wore makeup. Maybe that's what will equalize everything: men wearing makeup and acting fey."

Again, I have to wonder, MR, are you living in the same time period I am?


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I think education in the US should be gender-separate, and in uniforms. That would stop all of the provoking and fighting.


I went to an isolated all-male college back when such things were relatively more common -- and not only was it the most sexually challenged atmosphere society used to allow (excepting, maybe, a monastary), but a remarkable percentage of graduates were clueless about, and had a completely warped view of women.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I went to an isolated all-male college back when such things were relatively more common -- and not only was it the most sexually challenged atmosphere society used to allow (excepting, maybe, a monastary), but a remarkable percentage of graduates were clueless about, and had a completely warped view of women.


Yep, I went to a male only school and so I didn't get an education in how to socialise with women. That's not a healthy thing. It took me years of working with women in the education sector to finally properly appreciate women.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Those who think that men and women are better kept apart are no doubt speaking from experience. I believe the expression is "sour grapes."


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2018)

DavidA said:


> If the men do this it's discrimination.


Except men don't do this, do they? They don't need to avoid discrimination against them.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacck said:


> the evil started when state started to force gender/race etc quotas on private employers, thus restricting their freedom to employ whom they want, under what circumstances they want and for whatever pay they want. If I don't want to employ women or blacks, because I had some bad experiences with them, why should the state force me to do so? I should have the freedom to emply whom I want, and anyone else should have the freedom to start his own business and employ whom he wants. In the US, the situation has gotten completely out of control with the identity politics.


The perfect definition of "prae judicium", surely? One black employee wasn't very good, therefore ALL potential black employees will be rubbish? Oh dear....


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Robert Pickett said:


> The perfect definition of "prae judicium", surely? One black employee wasn't very good, therefore ALL potential black employees will be rubbish? Oh dear....


I personally have absolutely nothing against blacks or women and would have no problem employing them. I am questioning this whole approach to this issue, ie antidiscrimination laws, quotas etc. You are forcing companies to employ people of certain race, gender etc just to fill quotas, and not because of there instrinsic value. This approach is also damaging to the minorities themselves. Now if you meet a black person with a degree from Ivy League university, you will think that he got it because of quotas and not because of his abilities. You meet a female manager and will think she got the position because of quotas. This approach does not solve racism, sexism and intolerance. It covers it, but underneath the resentment gets even stronger, because the people were forced to employ these employees. I agree that there should be no discrimination in state institutions, but the state should not force these things on private companies, imho.


----------



## nobilmente (Dec 18, 2018)

philoctetes said:


> No, millions, you are a bit old-fashioned I'm afraid. The first move you make should not be physical if you're not sure. Ask first, get the approval, and THEN make a move. Men who don't are what "me too" should be about.


The essence of the harassment issue is the typical power imbalance between those involved. This applies across all areas of working life it appears. Young people at the start of their careers may feel unable to challenge those effectively in authority, and may well feel they would get little support. Here's a recent example from the UK: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-figure-SEX-PESTS-Citys-new-dirty-secret.html . The use of secrecy clauses in any legal settlement is a further obstacle to resolving the issue in the long term.

In a sense, it's not good even for the senior people involved as they can become trapped in a cycle of increasingly disfunctional behaviour.


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2018)

Jacck said:


> I agree that there should be no discrimination in state institutions, but the state should not force these things on private companies, imho.


Why must "the state" be expected to have different standards than everyone else?


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

nobilmente said:


> The essence of the harassment issue is the typical power imbalance between those involved. This applies across all areas of working life it appears. Young people at the start of their careers may feel unable to challenge those effectively in authority, and may well feel they would get little support. Here's a recent example from the UK: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-figure-SEX-PESTS-Citys-new-dirty-secret.html . The use of secrecy clauses in any legal settlement is a further obstacle to resolving the issue in the long term.
> 
> In a sense, it's not good even for the senior people involved as they can become trapped in a cycle of increasingly disfunctional behaviour.


this is the other side of the story
https://nypost.com/2018/07/31/famed-opera-singer-blames-husbands-suicide-on-metoo-movement/
https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/17/seneca-valley-mean-girls-false-sexual
there is a huge power imbalance between the accuser and the accused. Once accused and once your public image is damaged, there is no way to defend yourself. I could google dozens of suicides linked to false rape accusations


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_there is a huge power imbalance between the accuser and the accused. Once accused and once your public image is damaged, there is no way to defend yourself. I could google dozens of suicides linked to false rape accusations _

Don't people ever tire of this nonsense?

There are two men on the United States Supreme Court that a slew of people were ready to testify about their sexual misdeeds. Both went through the highest visibility, most public scrutiny.

Yet here both are making laws that affect everyone in USA for the next 30-40 years.

This was the defense that entitled men for years: I'll be ruined by these false charges.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way anymore -- especially for Supreme Court justices.

I don't have to Google anything; I've known people that were falsely accused of sexual misconduct. None of them did any time anywhere, none of them had their lives ruined. It may have taken time but the truth willed out.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Suits and ties for men "sexualizes" men only by gender. There's nothing sexual or revealing about it. In fact, standard dress for men has been "de-sexualized" in many ways. That's why Ellen Degeneres wears those suit-jackets and pants. It "de-sexualizes" her so she can do her job. On the other hand, those super-tight "leggings" or dance tights that almost all women are wearing, which pass for jeans, emphasize the buttocks and even the crotch area. There are definite, obvious sexual implications to that kind of attire. _

This is a person with no concept of a woman's perspective which is typically the precursor to discrimination. Anyone that thinks a celebrity like Ellen DeGeneres has any meaning in classical music doesn't seem to be able to effectively filter ideas, either. It helps explain how someone can think this way.

This thread seems to bring out several people who want to justify discrimination on the basis of the way women dress -- or the way they think they dress. In other words if it turns me on I should be able to discriminate against it.

In other words, if I sexualize it -- the person -- I should be able to dismiss the person and everything else the person stands for.

This has been the way men have treated and discriminated against women in the workplace forever. And it didn't matter how they dressed. It still doesn't but it makes a convenient excuse to do it for some people.

I recently read some data on this. In a poll by Ipsos, a company that does a lot of polling worldwide, they asked a representative group of American men what percent of women they thought were subjected to sexual discrimination at some point in their lives.

The answer was ridiculously low, something like 20 percent. The real answer was about 90 percent.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

larold said:


> There are two men on the United States Supreme Court that a slew of people were ready to testify about their sexual misdeeds. Both went through the highest visibility, most public scrutiny..


do you believe testimonies against politicians/judges made during election campaigns? During elections, a woman (or several women) suddently remember that a given politician behaved in some inappropriate manner 30 years ago in high school. Of course, they have no proof and cannot even remember it. Sorry, I do not take this seriously and would rather task the secret services to investigate the relationship of the women to the opposing political party. This kind of political fight should be a no go.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Jacck said:


> this is the other side of the story
> https://nypost.com/2018/07/31/famed-opera-singer-blames-husbands-suicide-on-metoo-movement/
> https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/17/seneca-valley-mean-girls-false-sexual
> there is a huge power imbalance between the accuser and the accused. Once accused and once your public image is damaged, there is no way to defend yourself. I could google dozens of suicides linked to false rape accusations


Thank you Jacck for these articles and for broadening our perspective. Sexism (and abuse of power) remains a serious problem, for sure, but then again, the (falsely) accused can become victims also, and often so.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Orfeo said:


> Thank you Jacck for these articles and for broadening our perspective. Sexism (and abuse of power) remains a serious problem, for sure, but then again, the (falsely) accused can become victims also, and often so.


I personally think that the both victims of sexual abuse and victims of accusations of sexual misbehavior etc. should be protected by law. For example in Czech Republic there are laws that forbid journalists to report any names of children and adolescents involved in any crime. Those accused of rape/sexual harrasment should be similarly protected, at least until proven guilty by court.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_There are two men on the United States Supreme Court that a slew of people were ready to testify about their sexual misdeeds. Both went through the highest visibility, most public scrutiny..do you believe testimonies against politicians/judges made during election campaigns? During elections, a woman (or several women) suddently remember that a given politician behaved in some inappropriate manner 30 years ago in high school. Of course, they have no proof and cannot even remember it. Sorry, I do not take this seriously and would rather task the secret services to investigate the relationship of the women to the opposing political party. This kind of political fight should be a no go. _

It's clear you didn't read what I wrote so I will repeat it. TWO MEN NOMINATED TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES … IN BOTH CASES PEOPLE WERE LINED UP TO GIVE CORROBORATING TESTIMONY BUT WERE REFUSED THE CHANCE.

I said nothing about anyone in any election. You said that.


----------

