# Identity Crisis: Cello, Upright Bass, or Fretless Bass Guitar



## Bassist

Please forgive the long post, I'm a musician in a bit of an identity crisis, and I don't know what instrument I should learn/play next, and I'm hoping someone can help me see a clear path...

I'm a 32 year old male that lives in Toronto, Ontario, Canada that has been playing the electric bass guitar since I was 23. I mostly played a fretted bass guitar, but did have a fretless bass guitar for a couple of years that I absolutely loved, and preferred, until I had to sell it.

A few months ago, I got sick of playing the fretted bass guitar and all of the rock based music (classic, modern, prog, and metal) I was playing and even listening to... I kind of stopped listening to music altogether as nothing was doing it for me anymore. Then I started falling in love with classical music, and mainly the bowed sound of a cello or an upright bass.

I kind of got obsessed with the idea of learning to play a cello, and while I couldn't afford one (or lessons) at the time, I tuned my bass guitar to 5th's in CGDA and started learning cello pieces on the fretted bass guitar. However, I quickly realized the lack of expression on a fretted guitar type instrument was a hinderance. I thought of getting a 5-string fretless bass guitar, tuned to CGDAE, and it would help give me the expression I was missing. However, there's no control of the volume of the note after you pluck the string, so after some debating, I realized I could get a volume pedal, reverb, and a light fuzz pedal to help approximate the volume swells and tone of the cello.

Case closed right? Not quite... I realized it seemed odd to invest in all of this stuff to play music that was written for, and sounds better on, a different instrument.

I'm getting out my financial hump, so in a short time, I will be able to invest in a cello or an upright bass, and get weekly lessons... If I tune the upright bass in 5th's (like Joel Quarrington), I'll be able to get the same range as a cello, but an octave lower. To be honest, I love this idea. I would rather have an octave lower than have the cello's highest octave. The problem is if I went this route, I would be limiting myself. If I ever got good enough to join a bass section, I would have to tune in 4th's. If I stuck in 5th's tuning, I feel like I'd be stuck as a soloist with little room to play with others. Also, I feel like if I just got a cello, I wouldn't be playing in any radical tuning, and I could join in string quartets or orchestras, if ?I ever got good enough...

Then reality hits... I'm 32 years old, work roughly 40-60 hours a week, have a non-musician wife (makes practicing a bit harder), and we may be trying to start a family in a few months. With how busy I currently am, I am lucky to practice 10 hours a week. With these things in mind, it will probably take at least a year to get a decent bow sound (I've heard bass is easier than cello in this regard), and by then, I may become a parent and will certainly lose the ability to practice for the next several (or longer) years...

I know I could pick up a fretless bass guitar tomorrow and be good on it right away... Though, it may take a few weeks to learn how to use a volume pedal to do swells to my satisfaction. However, I knw as good as I got, my heart wouldn't be in it as much as if I learned an upright bass or cello.

Regarding upright bass and tuning in 5th's, I mentioned ?I would be limiting myself from joining any orchestras... With my older age and limited practice availability, should this even be a concern? Could ?I even get good enough (or have the credentials) to join an orchestra? Are there amateur (or smaller) orchestras/ensembles that only have one upright bass?

Thanks in advance.


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## senza sordino

I can tell you with some certainty that there are amateur orchestras that are in desperate need of bass players. Here on the other side of the country we have amateur groups working at different levels of ability, I'm sure that would be the case in an even bigger city where you are. 

I don't really know how to comment on tuning your bass in fifths.


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## Bassist

I should add that I do love the cello and its range. It is probably the most beautiful sounding instrument, and is, in my opinion, the best instrument for a soloist to play (and I'll likely stay as a soloist).

I do wish that the standard body size of a cello was larger though, to give it a bigger, deeper tone. The upper end of a cello's range is a little nasally for my tastes, and even the lowest end of the range, isn't as full sounding as I would prefer... Unfortunately, I'm in no position to get a custom cello.



senza sordino said:


> I can tell you with some certainty that there are amateur orchestras that are in desperate need of bass players. Here on the other side of the country we have amateur groups working at different levels of ability, I'm sure that would be the case in an even bigger city where you are.
> 
> I don't really know how to comment on tuning your bass in fifths.


Thanks Senza. That is encouraging.

I do realize tuning in 5th's is much more challenging, but from what I read, it seems that you can modify your technique to make it much easier. from reading posts on TalkBass.com, it seems like most people who switch to 5th's, and took the time to really adapt to it, has preferred it for playing classical music... Jazz walking basslines not so much.


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## Nate Miller

I have spent my life among upright bass players. 

I doubt that tuning your bass in 5ths is a good idea. The pressure is going to be enormous, and the instrument is only made out of wood.


I have personally towed a car using the old low "E" off an upright bass. Granted, it was a VW bug, but still, that's a beefy string.

The bass is tuned like it is for a reason.

They do, however, TRANSCRIBE cello music for bass. So you can actually take a piece of cello music and play it on a bass. I do that on guitar all the time. In fact, I'm performing some selections from the Bach Cell Suites next weekend.

So transcribe the music, don't retune. The pressure isn't going to be good for your axe. An electric bass doesn't have the same problems because its a smaller scale. but if you insist on retuning, at least figure out the string gauges you are going to need. That low C makes a very slack low string, and winding that top G up to an E is probably going to break something


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## Guest

It used to be a standard to tune bass in fifths in the 16th through the 19th centuries . It's very tough to bow on which is why they changed over to EADG fourths in the 19th century. The CGDA fifths tuning opens up the bass sound nicely and some jazz guys did it like Red Mitchell but the fingerings in fifths is awkward as hell. Even those orchestras that resisted the 4ths tuning eventually went over to it so that tells you why it's not a good idea to use fifths.

As for transcribing cello sheet music to bass, I find it unnecessary. I play bass off cello sheet music all the time and don't have any real problems.


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## Nate Miller

Victor Redseal said:


> It used to be a standard to tune bass in fifths in the 16th through the 19th centuries . It's very tough to bow on which is why they changed over to EADG fourths in the 19th century. The CGDA fifths tuning opens up the bass sound nicely and some jazz guys did it like Red Mitchell but the fingerings in fifths is awkward as hell. Even those orchestras that resisted the 4ths tuning eventually went over to it so that tells you why it's not a good idea to use fifths.
> 
> As for transcribing cello sheet music to bass, I find it unnecessary.* I play bass off cello sheet music *all the time and don't have any real problems.


that's really what I meant, but the main idea is that you can play cello music on the bass without retuning into 5ths.

I didn't know that they used to tune the double bass in 5ths back in the old days. I can imagine, though, the stretches if you tuned in 5ths. I didn't think about that, but it takes from my index finger to my pinky to make a single whole step down in the lower positions.


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## Guest

Nate Miller said:


> that's really what I meant, but the main idea is that you can play cello music on the bass without retuning into 5ths.
> 
> I didn't know that they used to tune the double bass in 5ths back in the old days. I can imagine, though, the stretches if you tuned in 5ths. I didn't think about that, but it takes from my index finger to my pinky to make a single whole step down in the lower positions.


On bass, the fingering is tough in 4ths much less 5ths but some fast-paced passages in 5ths would have been impossible for all but the best bassists. It was a guy named Wenzel Hause who taught in Prague in the early half of the 19th century to get bassists to tune in 4ths as well as get back to 4-string basses (for ensemble playing) rather than 3-stringers. This didn't happen overnight. Three-string basses lasted into the 1920s but 5ths tuning lasted into the late 19th century at least. Some orchestras strongly resisted it because the sound wasn't as open but as they encountered more and more bassists who used 4ths it became useless to fight it. The writing was on the wall.

But, yes, you can play cello sheet music on bass. The reason that the tuning makes no difference is because when you bow on bass, you are generally restricted to the D and G strings. You rarely use the A and almost never use the E (that's why so many bassists used 3-stringers). So you're not going to play the bass the way the cello is played. The notes the bassists play are located differently than on the cello. The bassists only need to know the notes not the tuning. Really, bass soloists are really playing a one-string instrument.


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## Nate Miller

interesting stuff, Victor. thanks for posting that. I always like to hear other players talk about the particulars of playing their instrument


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## Bassist

Thanks for your posts everyone.

If I do get an upright bass, then I will tune it in 4th's. I realized that if I tuned in 5th's, I would pretty much be forced to stay as a soloist or playing in small ensembles only. No orchestra will want a bass tuned to a radical different tuning that the other basses in the section, and if I'm stuck as a soloist, then it's easier for me to transpose the notes to a different key to fit my range anyway. So I might as well tune it in 4th's, keep the possibility of playing in orchestras open (likely amateur orchestras), and make the stretches easier on my left hand. Plus, I have learned by tuning my bass guitar to 5th's that playing jazz and rock is much harder in 5th's.

Still, I'm not sure if it is an upright bass I want to learn. I also realized there's less people to play with as an upright bassist, than as a cellist... Cellists are very common in string quartets and piano trios, basses are not. Both instruments require a lot of time to learn, which is something I struggle with, so maybe getting a fretless bass guitar with a volume ideal and maybe the right effect pedals (and maybe an eBow) is the way to go...

I wish I started younger. I had a lot more time to dedicate learning new instruments than I do these days.


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## Grayum

I'm in a similar boat, Toronto, mid-thirties and trying to decide which of the three mentioned Instruments I should go for?

I've been playing various instruments for years, Saxophone, Violin, Piano, even some Drums/Percussion for a while.

I'm looking at getting into playing more Bass/Baritone music as I love rhythm but dragging a full drum kit around is too much and I'm moving into smaller city digs soon so they will be staying out in the country cottage.

I'm trying to pick between a Bass Guitar or a Cello/Double Bass; I have some thoughts but beyond me guess I thought I would ask here. Note: for instrument specifics I'm looking at NS Design Electrical Instruments as comparisons due to the electric component and size reduction.

1. (Electric) Cello
The off choice simply because I would require a pitch pedal to drop an octave. But this would allow for me to also bow in addition to strumming and I can fit in a few more niche bands. Likely looking at a 5 string version to get that extra drop in pitch.

2. Bass Guitar
Easiest of the three to learn, simply because it's so common and there is a million YouTube videos and unlike guitars, no chords. Finding a teacher would also be easy.

3. (Electric) Double Bass
I really love the sound and travel of a bass, but it's generally quite big (unless I get a NS Omni Bass) and you can't play as complex rifts without a lot of practise muting which means I suspect this will be the longest to learn as I'd likely have to do most on my own.

I'm interested in eventually joining a band for fun; maybe the occasional gig if we are good enough. I enjoy crossover classical, folk rock, classic rock (Queen/Who/AC/DC) etc. Not big on Heavy Metal.

So the question really comes down to, each instrument has its own unique traits but for learning quickly to get proficient enough to join an amateur band what are people's best guesses. I really enjoy playing with others as a social thing as much as a musical enjoyment.


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## Sonata

I'm really interested to hear which way you went with your instrument. And how about the family, did you guys have a baby?


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## fluteman

Bassist said:


> Please forgive the long post, I'm a musician in a bit of an identity crisis, and I don't know what instrument I should learn/play next, and I'm hoping someone can help me see a clear path...
> 
> I'm a 32 year old male that lives in Toronto, Ontario, Canada that has been playing the electric bass guitar since I was 23. I mostly played a fretted bass guitar, but did have a fretless bass guitar for a couple of years that I absolutely loved, and preferred, until I had to sell it.
> 
> A few months ago, I got sick of playing the fretted bass guitar and all of the rock based music (classic, modern, prog, and metal) I was playing and even listening to... I kind of stopped listening to music altogether as nothing was doing it for me anymore. Then I started falling in love with classical music, and mainly the bowed sound of a cello or an upright bass.
> 
> I kind of got obsessed with the idea of learning to play a cello, and while I couldn't afford one (or lessons) at the time, I tuned my bass guitar to 5th's in CGDA and started learning cello pieces on the fretted bass guitar. However, I quickly realized the lack of expression on a fretted guitar type instrument was a hinderance. I thought of getting a 5-string fretless bass guitar, tuned to CGDAE, and it would help give me the expression I was missing. However, there's no control of the volume of the note after you pluck the string, so after some debating, I realized I could get a volume pedal, reverb, and a light fuzz pedal to help approximate the volume swells and tone of the cello.
> 
> Case closed right? Not quite... I realized it seemed odd to invest in all of this stuff to play music that was written for, and sounds better on, a different instrument.
> 
> I'm getting out my financial hump, so in a short time, I will be able to invest in a cello or an upright bass, and get weekly lessons... If I tune the upright bass in 5th's (like Joel Quarrington), I'll be able to get the same range as a cello, but an octave lower. To be honest, I love this idea. I would rather have an octave lower than have the cello's highest octave. The problem is if I went this route, I would be limiting myself. If I ever got good enough to join a bass section, I would have to tune in 4th's. If I stuck in 5th's tuning, I feel like I'd be stuck as a soloist with little room to play with others. Also, I feel like if I just got a cello, I wouldn't be playing in any radical tuning, and I could join in string quartets or orchestras, if ?I ever got good enough...
> 
> Then reality hits... I'm 32 years old, work roughly 40-60 hours a week, have a non-musician wife (makes practicing a bit harder), and we may be trying to start a family in a few months. With how busy I currently am, I am lucky to practice 10 hours a week. With these things in mind, it will probably take at least a year to get a decent bow sound (I've heard bass is easier than cello in this regard), and by then, I may become a parent and will certainly lose the ability to practice for the next several (or longer) years...
> 
> I know I could pick up a fretless bass guitar tomorrow and be good on it right away... Though, it may take a few weeks to learn how to use a volume pedal to do swells to my satisfaction. However, I knw as good as I got, my heart wouldn't be in it as much as if I learned an upright bass or cello.
> 
> Regarding upright bass and tuning in 5th's, I mentioned ?I would be limiting myself from joining any orchestras... With my older age and limited practice availability, should this even be a concern? Could ?I even get good enough (or have the credentials) to join an orchestra? Are there amateur (or smaller) orchestras/ensembles that only have one upright bass?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


My advice: You are in one of the world's major cities. Go to a university or music conservatory and ask at the office how to locate a student to hire as your teacher. Then, maybe with a bit of advice from your teacher (who may be a teenager but wait until you hear how great a cellist he or she is!) get the cheapest Chinese-made student cello you can find that actually works from a real string instrument dealer, not a department store (no knock on China, they also make high quality expensive string instruments there these days as well). Your teacher will probably recommend you spend a bit more for better strings. But your money should mainly go to private lessons. One lesson every two weeks if every week is too much money.
As you already are a musician, I'm betting you will be playing pretty well within a year. Maybe I'll look you up next time I'm in Toronto to play some chamber music! Good luck.


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## fluteman

Sorry, duplicate post.


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## fluteman

Sorry duplicate post.


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## fluteman

My advice: You are in one of the world's major cities. Go to a university or music conservatory and ask at the office how to locate a student to hire as your teacher. Then, maybe with a bit of advice from your teacher (who may be a teenager but wait until you hear how great a cellist he or she is!) get the cheapest Chinese-made student cello you can find that actually works from a real string instrument dealer, not a department store (no knock on China, they also make high quality expensive string instruments there these days as well). Your teacher will probably recommend you spend a bit more for better strings. But your money should mainly go to private lessons. One lesson every two weeks if every week is too much money.
As you already are a musician, I'm betting you will be playing pretty well within a year. Maybe I'll look you up next time I'm in Toronto to play some chamber music! Good luck.


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