# George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra



## flamencosketches

The late maestro Szell and his Clevelanders together formed one of the most iconic conductor/orchestra pairing in history. The notorious hardass & his ultra-precise band left behind a huge recorded legacy, and it seems folks either love the detail and incisiveness of the performances, or hate them for supposed unflexibility. 

As for me, I'm still making up my mind, but I do find Szell & the Clevelanders to be absolutely phenomenal in certain repertoire: Mozart, for instance; there are very few recordings I prefer to Szell's of the last two symphonies. I have had a disc called Wagner Without Words by Szell/Cleveland since childhood, with great orchestral Wagner (though I have a feeling more serious Wagnerites might hate it—is there any Wagnerian among us who wants to confirm or deny that for me?)—and I am also quite fond of his Mahler 4th with Judith Raskin. 

What are some essential Szell/Cleveland recordings in your eyes? Where do they shine, where do they fall flat?


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## Manxfeeder

Haydn, Symphony No 93, for the razzberry heard 'round the world.


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## Ulfilas

His Beethoven symphonies are still among the best, especially the Eroica.

Also his Brahms symphonies, and the concertos with Leon Fleisher, as well as Schumann and Dvorak.

In the central Germanic repertoire, he was pretty much unsurpassed I think. In fact I find it hard to think of any repertoire where they "fall flat"!


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Highlights:
The Beethoven Symphony Cycle - particularly the 3rd
The Brahms Double Conerto
The Brahms Violin Concerto with Oistrakh
Brahms Symphony No. 4
Beethoven and Brahms Piano Concertos with Fleisher
Schubert's 8th and 9th Symphonies
Schumann Symphonies
I also have that Wagner Without Words - really enjoy it!


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## DaddyGeorge

I'm not entirely a fan of Szell, but I agree with what I read somewhere, that his recording of Schubert's 9th Symphony is one of the best recordings of this work ever made.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Manxfeeder said:


> Haydn, Symphony No 93, for the razzberry heard 'round the world.


This. A stroke of pure genius. Sends me into fits of guffawing every time. The old autocrat had a sense of humor after all.

There's no denying from me the near-perfection of the Szell/Cleveland machine - and it really was a well-oiled machine. The clarity and purity of tone, precision of rhythm, transparency of texture, fullness of dynamic range...all extremely impressive, the pinnacle of orchestral playing. The Cleveland ensemble is one of my favorite orchestral sounds in the world, especially due to the gorgeous, sparkling woodwinds. But yet, like Karajan and Reiner who had very similar models of success with their orchestras, I always feel like something is missing - humanity. Perfection for the sake of perfection is boring, and I never turn to Szell for the most profound interpretations. There is always a sort of tightly-controlled stiffness and lack of freedom. That being said, he is a consistent go-to for me when I just want to hear something good done very well indeed. Some particular favorites of mine:

Schubert 9. This is probably my favorite Szell recording. It's not a symphony I'm always in the mood for, and when I am it needs to be a darned good performance to keep my interest. This is a darned good performance, you're just swept away by the brilliance and effervescence of the playing.

Mozart and Haydn. Szell converted me to Mozart's symphonies after previously hearing nothing but anemic HIP versions. The thrust, drama, and weight he puts into every phrase is just amazing; though overall Bruno Walter is my king of Mozart conductors, Szell is not far behind. And his Haydn recordings are tied with Jochum/LSO and Davis/RCO for my favorites.

Dvorak 9. A true classic for this symphony even if others get deeper into the rhapsodic soul of Dvorak.

For me his most overrated include the Mahler 4; impeccable as it is it just lacks a little bit of that expressive freedom that Mahler demands, even if the Adagio is amazingly prayerful and uplifting. I actually think it's quite a lovely recording, but so often overshadows so many of the other fantastic M4s out there. Same with his Sibelius 2 - very nice but too reined-in. His Beethoven doesn't really connect with me either, though I haven't spent a lot of time with it. I guess the more I think of it the more I realize I really like lots of his recordings. The guy and his band sure were consistent, and though he is never all that challenging or revelatory for me I am very happy with a great deal of what he did.


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## flamencosketches

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Highlights:
> 
> I also have that Wagner Without Words - really enjoy it!


Must be standard issue for Ohioan music lovers. I got mine from my uncle who studied music at Bowling Green State; my whole family is from Toledo. 

@ACB, I would wholeheartedly disagree that there's any humanity missing from Szell's and ESPECIALLY Reiner's music making (I'll give you Karajan) but I guess I can see where you're coming from. But I would agree that Szell is second only to Walter on the Mozart pantheon. His Haydn I'm less fond of, though it is nice. I prefer Colin Davis/RCO for the London symphonies, and I actually like the HIP guys in Haydn (unlike Mozart), Brüggen and Kuijken (not big on Pinnock's Haydn).


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## Heck148

Posters seem to be zooming into the best-known Szell/Cleveland efforts...
a couple of favorites -

Walton - Sym #2....really great, Szell lets the orchestra rip....some spectacular section work esp in the finale - check out the variations for the bassoons, and then the trombones....

Beethoven - Leonore Ov #3 - great performance of a major orchestral tour de force....Szell gets the big eruption after the Allegro - a veritable damn burst of sound and energy which persists all the way to the first trumpet call...the very demanding String section work is played with stunning precision.

The story on the big bassoon f*rt in Haydn #93/II - [from a student of one of the oboists, quotes are not exact]  - at the first rehearsal - orchestra came to that spot - the fine principal bassoonist - George Goslee- played the low C loud, as marked...
Szell stops - <<No, no, no...much more, much more>>...
Goslee plays it louder,
Sz: <<No, no, needs more>> - 
he tries a different reed, still no-go - he's blasting it out at pretty much the max, still no good...
G:<<OK, let me work on something for tomorrow>>

Goslee goes home, puts together a raw blank, right off the profiler/shaper - no adjustments, no fine tuning, just unrefined, raw, unfinished cane...
next day - comes to the spot - the raucous, loud, flatulent blast erupts from his bassoon - :lol:
Sz: <<Yes, that's it!! Perfect!!>>
recording history is made!! :lol:


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## Bigbang

DaddyGeorge said:


> I'm not entirely a fan of Szell, but I agree with what I read somewhere, that his recording of Schubert's 9th Symphony is one of the best recordings of this work ever made.


I was not a fan of the Schubert 9th (still not) but Szell version is very listenable. Probably my favorite.


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## jegreenwood

Let me put it this way - I waited for years for a Sony megabox. Pre-ordered it the day it was first listed.

I also own Japanese SACDs of his Beethoven cycle as well as early SACDs of his Schumann, Mendelssohn, Strauss and Dvorak, and Japanese releases of his Mozart and Brahms. (These may be in the big box too.)

Szell was not always my imprint for Germanic repertoire (although he was for Mozart and Schumann) but his recordings of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann and Brahms have been a mainstay in my collection since my earliest days of classical listening (on crummy Columbia LPs).


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## Bigbang

And let us not forget Strauss Four Last songs with Elizabeth Schwarzkopf. Let's be blunt here: George Szell picked his stuff he wanted to record and was very intelligent in music (was stated to be child prodigy). Like Reiner he had a way of getting the best out of the orchestra-period. I cannot recall anything he did less than worthy to listen to or collect (of course sound is another issue). Comments I hear about his style (mostly just being passed around like a ball) are subjective (that is, you, and me) and not the truth in and of itself. I cannot think of any criticism toward George Szell of him being sloppy, or lacking something but mostly more about approaches to music. Nuff said for me.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Well, thanks to my diminished willpower due to my cabin fever, and the high praise for Szell in here, I just made several impulse bus on iTunes.
The Sony Jacket edition of Szell conducting Mozart
The Haydn London Symphonies 
Tchaikovsky 5th symphony 
The Strauss recording (Great Performances)
Grieg and Schumann piano concertos with Fleisher

Gotta have something new to listen to in case this shutdown lasts much longer.


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## Bigbang

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Well, thanks to my diminished willpower due to my cabin fever, and the high praise for Szell in here, I just made several impulse bus on iTunes.
> The Sony Jacket edition of Szell conducting Mozart
> The Haydn London Symphonies
> Tchaikovsky 5th symphony
> The Strauss recording (Great Performances)
> Grieg and Schumann piano concertos with Fleisher
> 
> Gotta have something new to listen to in case this shutdown lasts much longer.


I keep bringing this up : If you want to hear it for free, try freegal through your local library if they subscribe to it. All the Szell music you brought up is available for free. I use it when I I want to check out something I do not own on CD.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Bigbang said:


> I keep bringing this up : If you want to hear it for free, try freegal through your local library if they subscribe to it. All the Szell music you brought up is available for free. I use it when I I want to check out something I do not own on CD.


I don't mind buying music.


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## The3Bs

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Highlights:
> The Beethoven Symphony Cycle - particularly the 3rd
> The Brahms Double Conerto
> The Brahms Violin Concerto with Oistrakh
> Brahms Symphony No. 4
> Beethoven and Brahms Piano Concertos with Fleisher
> Schubert's 8th and 9th Symphonies
> Schumann Symphonies
> I also have that Wagner Without Words - really enjoy it!


You took the words out of my mouth......

Beethoven - taut and dynamic (be it symphonies or the concertos with Fleisher (amongst my favorites))
Brahms - tragic/romantic (same as above)
Schubert classic with a zip

and would add Haydn to this list ... The early London Symphonies - old way with a hint of HIP


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## jegreenwood

My only caveat about the Haydn London symphonies is that the original two CD Odyssey set sounds just awful. Sony had a slimline no-frills four disc set that includes several other Haydn recordings. The sound was greatly improved.

https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=haydn+szell&ref=nb_sb_noss_1


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## flamencosketches

jegreenwood said:


> My only caveat about the Haydn London symphonies is that the original two CD Odyssey set sounds just awful. Sony had a slimline no-frills four disc set that includes several other Haydn recordings. The sound was greatly improved.
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=haydn+szell&ref=nb_sb_noss_1


I bought my copy of that set from you.  Damn good Haydn.


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## Merl

A lot of Szell's recordings were strong. His Brahms, Beethoven and Dvorak 7-9 recordings are particularly special. I like his Schumann too although some dont like its driven style. I do.


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## wkasimer

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I don't mind buying music.


Me neither. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.


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## flamencosketches

I ordered his Schubert 8 & 9. Excited to hear it.


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## Knorf

Favorites for Szell/Cleveland for me include most of what folks posted above. But there wasn't much mention of his Mendelssohn, which I think was terrific, especially the Italian Symphony and the Midsummer Night's Dream suite. The Overture from the latter, in particular, is some of the most perfect music-making ever achieved in recording. I am not exaggerating. 

I also like Szell's Richard Strauss, although it doesn't satisfy me quite to the degree Karajan does. Very much worth hearing, regardless!


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

wkasimer said:


> Me neither. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.


If it helps keep companies in business so they can continue to make music for me to buy, I'm happy to do my part.


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## Bigbang

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> If it helps keep companies in business so they can continue to make music for me to buy, I'm happy to do my part.


For sure but when I am facing two options of putting out money (streaming) and getting it free (streaming) of the same music, to pay for it, I know Warren Buffett would be looking at me like I am an idiot. Plus I buy CDs and even here I am buying the carnage, the leftover from those who are dumping them. My Mama didn't raise no dummy!

Might add too that support of local library helps as well as they buy the music for patrons to use and need to see their money is well spent. If new people cannot afford to listen to classical music by purchasing (well, guess that point is not valid with streaming anyway.)


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## Manxfeeder

Knorf said:


> Favorites for Szell/Cleveland for me include most of what folks posted above. But there wasn't much mention of his Mendelssohn, which I think was terrific, especially the Italian Symphony and the Midsummer Night's Dream suite.


Thanks for bringing that up. I need to listen to that again.


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## jegreenwood

flamencosketches said:


> I ordered his Schubert 8 & 9. Excited to hear it.


My imprint versions of those two works are Toscanini (on LP with the Philadelphia Orchestra for the 9th and the NBC Orchestra for the 8th) I heard a number of other recordings over the years, but it wasn't until I heard Szell that I found a stereo version that offered the same thrill. (Kleiber's 8th ain't bad though.)


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## flamencosketches

Thoughts on Szell's Mahler 6? I'm considering getting it while it's so cheap (under $4 with shipping included right now on ebay). I think I'm still trying to find the right Mahler 6 for me... or, more likely, maybe there is no "right" one and there are different interpretations for different moods.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Bigbang said:


> For sure but when I am facing two options of putting out money (streaming) and getting it free (streaming) of the same music, to pay for it, I know Warren Buffett would be looking at me like I am an idiot. Plus I buy CDs and even here I am buying the carnage, the leftover from those who are dumping them. My Mama didn't raise no dummy!
> 
> Might add too that support of local library helps as well as they buy the music for patrons to use and need to see their money is well spent. If new people cannot afford to listen to classical music by purchasing (well, guess that point is not valid with streaming anyway.)


I actually pay for a subscription to Apple Music, so I find that much easier. It isn't perfect - sometimes the metadata for the albums is flawed, so just typing in "George Szell" doesn't bring up everything. If you know of a specific album, you have to try all kinds of permutations to find it. But I find quite a bit.

But some I just like to purchase, mainly if it is from a conductor or performer with which I already have a good track record. And I don't always like the online services that libraries use. I've tried things like Hoopla before, and I dislike how I have to use a separate app for listening. I don't know how the one you mentioned works, and don't even know if my library system uses it. But I listen to everything through iTunes - synced across my computer, iPad, iPhone, and iPod.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

flamencosketches said:


> Thoughts on Szell's Mahler 6? I'm considering getting it while it's so cheap (under $4 with shipping included right now on ebay). I think I'm still trying to find the right Mahler 6 for me... or, more likely, maybe there is no "right" one and there are different interpretations for different moods.


I actually haven't heard any of his Mahler other than his Wunderhorn recording - it isn't my favorite, and I rarely go back to it. But I don't really think you can go wrong with a $4 purchase. That was honestly how I discovered his Beethoven symphonies - those dirt cheap Sony Essentials recordings - solid cover with a tiny picture in the middle. I thought they would be crap, like those ubiquitous Laserlight "Best Of" albums out there. I was more than pleasantly surprised.


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## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> Thoughts on Szell's Mahler 6? I'm considering getting it while it's so cheap (under $4 with shipping included right now on ebay). I think I'm still trying to find the right Mahler 6 for me... or, more likely, maybe there is no "right" one and there are different interpretations for different moods.


I had it but thought it a bit airless. The no 4 is tremendous and the Wunderhorn.
]
Thinking of Szell, the Decca recordings of Beethoven's Egmont with the VPO was terrific and also his conducting of the LSO for Curzon's brahms 1


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## flamencosketches

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I actually haven't heard any of his Mahler other than his Wunderhorn recording - it isn't my favorite, and I rarely go back to it. But I don't really think you can go wrong with a $4 purchase. That was honestly how I discovered his Beethoven symphonies - those dirt cheap Sony Essentials recordings - solid cover with a tiny picture in the middle. I thought they would be crap, like those ubiquitous Laserlight "Best Of" albums out there. I was more than pleasantly surprised.


Probably right you are. It's only that I've been making a lot of $4 purchases lately, they add up faster than one might think... :lol: All of these "Essential Classics" discs that I have are excellent. A lot of Szell, Ormandy etc, soloists like Philippe Entremont, etc.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

flamencosketches said:


> Probably right you are. It's only that I've been making a lot of $4 purchases lately, they add up faster than one might think... :lol: All of these "Essential Classics" discs that I have are excellent. A lot of Szell, Ormandy etc, soloists like Philippe Entremont, etc.


Yeah, I quickly discovered that and but any of those I happen to find. But I get your point about the costs accumulating.


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## jegreenwood

flamencosketches said:


> Probably right you are. It's only that I've been making a lot of $4 purchases lately, they add up faster than one might think... :lol: All of these "Essential Classics" discs that I have are excellent. A lot of Szell, Ormandy etc, soloists like Philippe Entremont, etc.


When I started buying classical LPs in the early 70s, Columbia had put a number of Szell recordings on its Odyssey budget label, and offered discount prices on many others. (The Beethoven cycle was 7 discs for the price of 4, and there were twofers priced only 50 cents higher than single Columbia LPs - and for that matter at the same price as DG and other imports.) Bernstein was not available at the same price, although Walter often was. As I was just learning about classical, I tended to buy what was cheapest. To this day, I own far more Szell and Walter than Bernstein.


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## flamencosketches

jegreenwood said:


> When I started buying classical LPs in the early 70s, Columbia had put a number of Szell recordings on its Odyssey budget label, and offered discount prices on many others. (The Beethoven cycle was 7 discs for the price of 4, and there were twofers priced only 50 cents higher than single Columbia LPs - and for that matter at the same price as DG and other imports.) Bernstein was not available at the same price, although Walter often was. As I was just learning about classical, I tended to buy what was cheapest. To this day, I own far more Szell and Walter than Bernstein.


The Columbia catalog from the '50s and '60s was something special... So many great recordings, and I really love the trademark, somewhat dry sound of their engineers.


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## Knorf

I tend to prefer drier recordings myself, which is why LSO recordings in the Barbican rarely bother me. It seems obligatory for certain reviewers to mention the "unflattering dry Barbican acoustic," but if anything I often like it. Some of my favorite recordings in recent years are on the LSO Live label!

Sony released a few of Szell's recordings on SACD outside Japan at a decent price, and they are superb. I use several for audiophile demonstrations, especially Smetana's Overture to _The Bartered Bride_, which is jaw-dropping for orchestral execution, conducting, and recorded sound.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

I just listened to the Grieg and Schumann piano concertos with Fleisher and Szell last night - wonderful recording. I may go to Szell's Strauss recordings next.


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## Knorf

Oh my gosh! I almost forgot! I love, love, love the Fleischer and Szell Brahms piano concertos. Those are among the best ever performances of those masterpieces.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Knorf said:


> Oh my gosh! I almost forgot! I love, love, love the Fleischer and Szell Brahms piano concertos. Those are among the best ever performances of those masterpieces.


Sony released a wonderful box set that contained all of these - I snatched it up immediately. Still my reference recording for Beethoven's 5th piano concerto.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Right now listening to Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony in E Minor. See how I like it compared to my Mravinsky recording. That will be a hard one to beat, although the 4th is the best symphony on that recording.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yes, Szell was a superb concerto accompanist. The Brahms 1st concerto with Curzon was mentioned, and that's a whopper of a performance (though quite a bit longer than average). A fascinating historical performance (in not half-bad sound, either) is Szell conducting the LSO accompanying Bronislaw Huberman in the Beethoven violin concerto. The solo playing is uniquely special, and it's interesting to hear Szell earlier in his career with other ensembles besides the one that his name is inevitably attached to.


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## The3Bs

Knorf said:


> Favorites for Szell/Cleveland for me include most of what folks posted above. But there wasn't much mention of his Mendelssohn, which I think was terrific, especially the Italian Symphony and the Midsummer Night's Dream suite. The Overture from the latter, in particular, is some of the most perfect music-making ever achieved in recording. I am not exaggerating.
> 
> I also like Szell's Richard Strauss, although it doesn't satisfy me quite to the degree Karajan does. Very much worth hearing, regardless!


Oh Yes!! On the Midsummer Night's Dream suite...
I know the thread is on Szell and Cleveland.. but is Midsummer Night's Dream suite with the Concertgebow is also terrific (an understatement).


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## The3Bs

jegreenwood said:


> My imprint versions of those two works are Toscanini (on LP with the Philadelphia Orchestra for the 9th and the NBC Orchestra for the 8th) I heard a number of other recordings over the years, but it wasn't until I heard Szell that I found a stereo version that offered the same thrill. (Kleiber's 8th ain't bad though.)


Concur... on the Szell.. specially the 9th I love the dynamics... 
In what regards the 8th, it is good but does not dethrone Sinopoli as my top favorite for this work so far.

(Gunther Wand ain't bad also)


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## The3Bs

Knorf said:


> Oh my gosh! I almost forgot! I love, love, love the Fleischer and Szell Brahms piano concertos. Those are among the best ever performances of those masterpieces.


How could you!!! 
They are indeed.. the Brahms 1st is a blast...


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## jegreenwood

Knorf said:


> I tend to prefer drier recordings myself, which is why LSO recordings in the Barbican rarely bother me. It seems obligatory for certain reviewers to mention the "unflattering dry Barbican acoustic," but if anything I often like it. Some of my favorite recordings in recent years are on the LSO Live label!
> 
> Sony released a few of Szell's recordings on SACD outside Japan at a decent price, and they are superb. I use several for audiophile demonstrations, especially Smetana's Overture to _The Bartered Bride_, which is jaw-dropping for orchestral execution, conducting, and recorded sound.


I have a few of those early SACDs mentioned above two-channel single-layer (so not playable on a regular CD player). Included among them was a Mendelssohn disc with the Italian Symphony and Dream excerpts.


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## Knorf

jegreenwood said:


> I have a few of those early SACDs mentioned above two-channel single-layer (so not playable on a regular CD player). Included among them was a Mendelssohn disc with the Italian Symphony and Dream excerpts.


Yep, I have that one. Love It!


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## flamencosketches

Man, I have my favorites in the Brahms concertos, but I suppose there is always room for more... and these sound great. Thanks for the tip, Knorf. I listened to a good bit of his Mahler 6 too and really thought it was something special. I wonder why Szell didn't record more Mahler. He had a great feel for it.


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## sstucky

As to concertos, the Prokofiev 1st and 3rd Piano Concertos with Graffman are stunning.


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## flamencosketches

I can wholeheartedly recommend his Schubert 8 & 9. The 9th is as fast as I've ever heard it. He zips through it, especially the inner movements, but it's extremely effective in this symphony that in my opinion requires a unique approach to really bring it home.

I got another disc of his Wagner preludes & overtures at one point:









I normally really like Ormandy & the Philadelphia Orchestra but they don't compare favorably with the Szell contributions on this disc.


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## starthrower

I picked up a used set cheap. The fidelity on these 60 year old recordings is phenomenal. And from what I've read the Sony Japan edition sounds even better. No.2 is the performance that really sends me!


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I picked up a used set cheap. The fidelity on these 60 year old recordings is phenomenal. And from what I've read the Sony Japan edition sounds even better. No.2 is the performance that really sends me!


Looks like a must-have. Thanks. I want to get the Fleisher Brahms concertos as well that people had been talking about. The sound on these Masterworks Heritage reissues is pretty good in my experience.


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## Knorf

I just wish Szell hadn't retouched Schumann's orchestration. His retouches were _never_ better, and furthermore were totally unnecessary. I reject the canard that these symphonies are poorly orchestrated and need help.

Plenty of conductors have played them as they are, with great success.


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> I just wish Szell hadn't retouched Schumann's orchestration. His retouches were _never_ better, and furthermore were totally unnecessary. I reject the canard that these symphonies are poorly orchestrated and need help.
> 
> Plenty of conductors have played them as they are, with great success.


Ah, I'd heard that there were recordings around with altered orchestration. I, too, reject that canard. Perfectly good symphonies as-is.


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## starthrower

I haven't listened to them enough to know the difference. I do have two other cycles by Klemperer, and Sawallisch both on EMI.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I haven't listened to them enough to know the difference. I do have two other cycles by Klemperer, and Sawallisch both on EMI.


The Sawallisch/Dresden is my favorite I think. That being said, while Schumann is one of my favorite composers, his symphonies are not a peak of his output to me.


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## The3Bs

flamencosketches said:


> I can wholeheartedly recommend his Schubert 8 & 9. The 9th is as fast as I've ever heard it. He zips through it, especially the inner movements, but it's extremely effective in this symphony that in my opinion requires a unique approach to really bring it home.
> 
> I got another disc of his Wagner preludes & overtures at one point:
> 
> View attachment 135171
> 
> 
> I normally really like Ormandy & the Philadelphia Orchestra but they don't compare favorably with the Szell contributions on this disc.


Concur on Szell Schubert... specially the 9th... It is a blast... dynamic and fun...


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## The3Bs

flamencosketches said:


> Looks like a must-have. Thanks. I want to get the Fleisher Brahms concertos as well that people had been talking about. The sound on these Masterworks Heritage reissues is pretty good in my experience.


Even though some of the critics have disparaged Fleisher's approach on Brahms concertos... I find his Brahms 1st one of the most virile and exciting on record (with Szell's help).


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## The3Bs

flamencosketches said:


> The Sawallisch/Dresden is my favorite I think. That being said, while Schumann is one of my favorite composers, his symphonies are not a peak of his output to me.


I am with you here... I love Schumann's music... but mostly his piano solo output...


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## Bigbang

Knorf said:


> I just wish Szell hadn't retouched Schumann's orchestration. His retouches were _never_ better, and furthermore were totally unnecessary. I reject the canard that these symphonies are poorly orchestrated and need help.
> 
> Plenty of conductors have played them as they are, with great success.


As they are? As in notes just telling the conductor what to do? What about in the studio when they use whatever engineering tricks to smooth out any rough spots in orchestrations? So Mahler was delusional too as he also did his retouches as well. What about all the 19th/20th century speculations on why Schumann had problems in keeping balance with orchestral forces?

And both Mahler and Szell apparently loved Schumann, with Szell conducting him often.

Unless one is an expert (I know I am not) it is best not to toss around ideas that others put out there on why Szell did what he did. And any claims that Schumann did not have any problems in orchestrations.

BTW, I have read theories that Schumann mental illness caused him to have issue writing his symphonies. So, for me, I put my trust in Szell judgement and go with the flow.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> The Sawallisch/Dresden is my favorite I think. That being said, while Schumann is one of my favorite composers, his symphonies are not a peak of his output to me.


So far No.2 is the only one that has made an impact on me. I don't really know any of his other music. I haven't listened much to the early romantics. A bit of Berlioz, Mendelssohn, and Schubert.


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## flamencosketches

Bigbang said:


> BTW, I have read theories that Schumann mental illness caused him to have issue writing his symphonies. So, for me, I put my trust in Szell judgement and go with the flow.


Hmm, sounds like a stretch to me. I don't buy it.


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## Knorf

Bigbang said:


> As they are? As in notes just telling the conductor what to do?


Yes. It's called an orchestra score.



> Unless one is an expert (I know I am not) it is best not to toss around ideas that others put out there on why Szell did what he did. And any claims that Schumann did not have any problems in orchestrations.


I _am_ an expert.



> I have read theories that Schumann mental illness caused him to have issue writing his symphonies. So, for me, I put my trust in Szell judgement and go with the flow.


Now, I've heard it all.


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## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> Hmm, sounds like a stretch to me. I don't buy it.


What part of the two points you do not buy. First I read about this theory. I did not say I believe it one way or another. But no doubt there has been much discussion about Schumann symphonies and it is above my pay grade to say one way or another BUT that fact that very intelligent people bring it up does raise the question of why. They are actually doing the "interpretation" of his score.

If I thought you or anyone on the TC could discuss with George Szell about his tendency to mess around with the holy scores and actually hold your own I might listen. But, so far I am going with Szell. Aside from free country to buy and listen it is really not worth getting worked up over it. Some one else called him a dictator. Nuff said


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## Bigbang

Knorf said:


> Yes. It's called an orchestra score.
> 
> Hmm. If this is so then I guess it is the talents of the performers that make the difference in recordings? And all the conductors see the same score? Hmm.
> 
> I _am_ an expert.
> 
> Well, I was being a little facetious because I did not know that conductors and highly trained performers are hanging out in TC. I am sure there might be some lurking (Hey Hilary big fan of your Bach sonatas!) but if you are able to explain to George Szell/Mahler where they err....I am impressed. Really. Of course we and they are a product of their time and period.
> 
> Now, I've heard it all.


Well, I did get around in my younger days reading little factoids. Does not matter what I think but that many experts from the past have brought up issues about Schumann dense orchestrations. Also Szell thought Schumann the best of the romantic composers (if I remember correctly) so regardless, if George Szell thinks it was worth his time to do it and I have yet to see any expert in print and say Szell was out of his mind to do it. Nuff said.


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## Heck148

The3Bs said:


> Concur on Szell Schubert... specially the 9th... It is a blast... dynamic and fun...


Szell recorded Schubert #9 twice with Cleveland - in 1957 (Epic/CBS/Sony), then again in 1970 (his last recording??) for EMI...both very fine...the EMI was only available in a big multi-disc set...may be NA at present.


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## Bigbang

Also I thought I read someone praising Chailly Schumann symphonies. Well, he did do a Mahler makeover of Schumann symphonies edition but I have not heard it. Anyone?


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## Knorf

Bigbang said:


> And all the conductors see the same score? Hmm.


In terms of which instruments play which notes in Schumann symphonies, yes, they damn well do.

I'm a fan of Szell, as I've said before. But his attempts to "improve" Schumann's orchestration were misguided failures, based on a fallacious narrative. Many narratives and myths exist abound in music, from Beethoven's deafness, to Mozart's supposed lack of drafts, to Schumann's supposedly poor orchestration, and beyond. Some have a kernel of truth. Some are nonsense, the opinion of some critic with an axe to grind, that lived on. Some are 100% fiction.

Exhibit A that Schumann's orchestration is fine: the numerous great and highly successful performances and recordings, by top shelf conductors and orchestras, who play the symphonies just as Schumann wrote them, _without_ fussing and tinkering.

Yes, Mahler fussed with orchestrating older music, too, including Schumann. So what? He re-orchestrated _Mozart _, for crying out loud. Sure, it's a curiosity, but I for one see no reason to champion Mahler's fussing over Mozart's original. I'll take the original, please, and thank you.


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## Common Listener

starthrower said:


> So far No.2 is the only one that has made an impact on me. I don't really know any of his other music. I haven't listened much to the early romantics. A bit of Berlioz, Mendelssohn, and Schubert.


Probably my favorite "symphony" (close enough) of his is the Overture-Scherzo-Finale. If you haven't heard it, it might be worth a try.


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## Bigbang

Knorf said:


> In terms of which instruments play which notes in Schumann symphonies, yes, they damn well do.
> 
> I'm a fan of Szell, as I've said before. But his attempts to "improve" Schumann's orchestration were misguided failures, based on a fallacious narrative. Many narratives and myths exist abound in music, from Beethoven's deafness, to Mozart's supposed lack of drafts, to Schumann's supposedly poor orchestration, and beyond. Some have a kernel of truth. Some are nonsense, the opinion of some critic with an axe to grind, that lived on. Some are 100% fiction.
> 
> Exhibit A that Schumann's orchestration is fine: the numerous great and highly successful performances and recordings, by top shelf conductors and orchestras, who play the symphonies just as Schumann wrote them, _without_ fussing and tinkering.
> 
> Yes, Mahler fussed with orchestrating older music, too, including Schumann. So what? He re-orchestrated _Mozart _, for crying out loud. Sure, it's a curiosity, but I for one see no reason to champion Mahler's fussing over Mozart's original. I'll take the original, please, and thank you.


Well saying it is so does not make it so. And I am not privy to every conductor performances so it is hard to know what they did. As I stated before---evidence exists that scholars are on record that something was not right in how Schumann did some aspects of orchestrations in his symphonies (apparently not so in his piano concerto) and that his approach to his lyricism part of the score and making it work correctly in orchestrations was a problem. And apparently today they cheat! Using modern technology they can make his music sound less problematic by engineering and fine tuning aspects of it. What about that!


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## Knorf

Bigbang said:


> Well saying it is so does not make it so.


Indeed. The music, unaltered in orchestration, speaks for itself



> And apparently today they cheat! Using modern technology they can make his music sound less problematic by engineering and fine tuning aspects of it. What about that!


Wow, you're really clutching at straws. Why? If you like Szell's adulterated Schumann, don't let me dissuade you.

But did you not see I said _"performances and recordings"_?

I've played Schumann's symphonies live, with professional orchestras as the principal bassoonist, playing what Schumann wrote, no special adjustments or unusual performance practice required. At all.

The truth is, "magic" available to knob-fiddling is less convincing by far than is commonly thought. My favorite recordings, audiophile wise, tend to be simple microphone setups, even just a stereo pair or something like the Decca tree. The kind of nasty, artificial instrument spotlighting you hear in Melodiya recordings, for example, becomes obvious if it's not kept very subtle.

In any case, there are very fine Schumann symphony recordings, of the original orchestration, that use a simple microphone setup. No knob fiddling. And Schumann's original orchestration is perfectly convincing.


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## Knorf

Apropos this discussion: the following is in Leonard Bernstein's handwriting.

(Which reminds me, Bernstein's Schumann Symphonies with Vienna is a terrific performance and recording.)


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## The3Bs

Heck148 said:


> Szell recorded Schubert #9 twice with Cleveland - in 1957 (Epic/CBS/Sony), then again in 1970 (his last recording??) for EMI...both very fine...the EMI was only available in a big multi-disc set...may be NA at present.


Thanks for pointing that out.. I thought I had that on my future purchases queue... now it is....


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## jegreenwood

Curious as to whether there is any discussion of Szell's Schumann in his biography. It was my imprint version, so I may not be a good judge. 

I did, however, pick up HIP versions of two symphonies in the Herreweghe box set. I've only listened to them once, but there certainly was a difference.


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## Simplicissimus

I like Szell/Cleveland across the board without reservations. However, I don’t have him in my collection representing the standard German repertoire because there are other conductors and orchestras that edge him out. Where Szell fits into my collection beautifully is with some of the less played material, where I think he shows his and Cleveland’s flexibility and sensitivity. My favorites, all on Sony (remastered from RCA stereo tapes):

- Barber Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, Op. 38, John Browning, 1964
- Janáček Sinfonietta, 1965
- Ravel Daphne et Chloé Suite No. 2, 1963
- Walton Variations on a Theme by Hindemith, 1964


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## Manxfeeder

Bigbang said:


> Many experts from the past have brought up issues about Schumann dense orchestrations.


I remember an old Peter Schikele skit:
Hello. You have reached Dial a Composer. Select the piece you would like to hear.
Beep.
You have selected Schumann's Symphony No. 1. Is that correct?
Beep.
If you would like to hear Schumann's first symphony, press 1.
If you would like to hear Schumann's first symphony if he knew how to orchestrate, press 2.
If you would like to hear Schumann's first symphony if he knew Brahms had the hots for his wife, press 3.


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## jegreenwood

I recall when I was just getting into classical music (early 70s) I had a book, which disparaged Schumann's talent for orchestration. Of course it also criticized Schubert and Beethoven for the same thing.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I learned quickly not to completely trust what books had to say about the supposed abilities or deficiencies of certain composers. It’s amusing how all these CM myths are propagated and believed. One of the first music books I read asserted that “Brahms could not write a good melody.” Too lazy to listen for myself at the time, I simply parroted that thought into the paper I was supposed to be writing on composers of the Romantic Period. The first time I heard the first piano trio I thought, “this is the guy who was supposed to be nothing but an old-fashioned harmonist with no melodic gifting?” Re:Schumann, his symphonies are among my most hated works in all music, but it’s not necessarily the orchestration, it’s the unbelievably bland and unmemorable melodies and their lack of true development. Whenever I decide to give them another shot it’s either Sawallisch or Bernstein/NY, both of which I find very palatable.


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## Knorf

For that matter, I've read before that Brahms was a lousy orchestrator, everything being overwritten. The author wrote this as if it were established fact. I had to laugh.

Someone should write a version of _Everything My Teacher Told Me Was A Lie_, but for Classical music.


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## sstucky

Walton Symphony 2 and Hindemith Variations. Prokofiev Piano Concertos 1and 3 (Graffman.)


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## Bigbang

-------------------------------------------------


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## Bigbang

Knorf said:


> Indeed. The music, unaltered in orchestration, speaks for itself
> 
> Wow, you're really clutching at straws. Why? If you like Szell's adulterated Schumann, don't let me dissuade you.
> 
> But did you not see I said _"performances and recordings"_?
> 
> I've played Schumann's symphonies live, with professional orchestras as the principal bassoonist, playing what Schumann wrote, no special adjustments or unusual performance practice required. At all.
> 
> The truth is, "magic" available to knob-fiddling is less convincing by far than is commonly thought. My favorite recordings, audiophile wise, tend to be simple microphone setups, even just a stereo pair or something like the Decca tree. The kind of nasty, artificial instrument spotlighting you hear in Melodiya recordings, for example, becomes obvious if it's not kept very subtle.
> 
> In any case, there are very fine Schumann symphony recordings, of the original orchestration, that use a simple microphone setup. No knob fiddling. And Schumann's original orchestration is perfectly convincing.


Hardly. I merely brought up that some posters were making comments about Szell (and I brought this up before on another thread but no one followed up) and I thought it rather humorous they could criticized Szell as if they were an expert. Perhaps it would be better to actually get right into what Szell did and why? But if one cannot best to keep quiet maybe as one should only focus on the points and not attack the messenger. I do not even own Szell Schumann but I can stream whenever.

I guess but really does not matter if a conductor decides to what he or she wants. George Szell recorded Schumann symphonies 60 years ago. He knew what he was striving for in the music and have it come out in the way he envisioned. Today, he may do it different but he would still have his own opinions about the scores.

I have Dohnanyi Cleveland. Supposed to be what Schumann wrote. I own Giulini Rhenish symphony, Solti (early) and Kubelick. It will be a matter of opinion on what these symphonies do for a listener. But your opinion is yours and Szells is his, not too mention all the conductors who have conducted the music. So your beef is with those who hold an opinion that is different from yours.

So duly noted, a principal bassoonist has disagreements with George Szell and others on record regarding Schumann symphonies.

I tried to line my reply to each section but too late now and I have not time to redo.


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## perdido34

jegreenwood said:


> Let me put it this way - I waited for years for a Sony megabox. Pre-ordered it the day it was first listed.


So did I, and I'm still working my way through it.

In addition to the commonly recommended Beethoven symphonies and concertos (Fleisher), Brahms symphonies and concertos (Fleisher), Haydn symphonies, Mahler 4, Dvorak symphonies, Schumann symphonies, and Mozart concertos (Casadesus) and symphonies, the box includes outstanding recordings of repertoire not commonly associated with Szell that I want to recommend:

Prokofiev: Lt Kije Suite, Symphony #5, piano concertos 1 and 3 (Graffman)
Stravinsky: Firebird Suite
Debussy: La Mer
Ravel: Daphnis & Chloe Suite 2
Kodaly: Hary Janos Suite
Hindemith: Symphonic Metamorphosis
Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto 1 (Horowitz)
Rachmaninov: Variations on a Theme by Paganini (Fleisher)

Among the EMI recordings, I like the Des Knaben Wunderhorn.

Worth searching for are live performances of Mahler 9 and Das Lied von der Erde, Tchaikovsky 6, Prokofiev Symphony 1, Sibelius 4 and 7, Ravel Tombeau de Couperin, Mozart Requiem, and the best Verdi Requiem I've ever heard (Tucci, Baker, Duval, Talvela).


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## Knorf

Szell's _Des Knaben Wunderhorn_ is an underrated gem of recorded music, in my opinion.


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## Mathias Broucek

Amongst the non-Cleveland material, I don’t think anyone has mentioned his LSO Tchaikovsky 4

When he arrived for the session some players were different from the concert which wound him up. The producer then made the first playback sound a little dull. That was enough to put 
Szell into a complete rage and the results are truly spectacular. Highly, highly recommended.

Amongst the Vienna material, there’s a fantastic Mozart PC23 with Curzon.

Finally, his Tokyo Sibelius 2 (Cleveland) is outstanding although not the best Japanese sound for the early 1970s


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## Brahmsian Colors

Szell favorites:

Beethoven: "Eroica" Symphony (No. 3), Fifth Symphony, The Piano Concertos with Leon Fleisher
Brahms: Symphonies 1 and 3, Piano Concertos 1 and 2 with Rudolf Serkin
Dvorak: Symphony No. 7
Schubert: Symphony No. 9 "Great C Major" (His late 1950s performance on Epic/Sony)
Schumann: "Spring" (No. 1) and "Rhenish" (No. 3) Symphonies
Mendelssohn: "Italian" Symphony" (No. 4)
Tchaikovsky" Symphony No. 5
Mozart: Sinfonia Concertante, Symphonies, Piano Concertos with Robert Casadesus
Haydn: Symphonies

London Symphony: Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 1 with Clifford Curzon


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Mathias Broucek said:


> *Amongst the non-Cleveland material, I don't think anyone has mentioned his LSO Tchaikovsky 4*
> 
> When he arrived for the session some players were different from the concert which wound him up. The producer then made the first playback sound a little dull. That was enough to put
> Szell into a complete rage and the results are truly spectacular. Highly, highly recommended.
> 
> Amongst the Vienna material, there's a fantastic Mozart PC23 with Curzon.
> 
> Finally, his Tokyo Sibelius 2 (Cleveland) is outstanding although not the best Japanese sound for the early 1970s


I think that is primarily because the thread is "George Szell Cleveland Orchestra"


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## Mathias Broucek

[deleted post with apologies]


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## flamencosketches

. .


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## Mathias Broucek

flamencosketches said:


> Huh? That was totally uncalled for.


You're right. I tried to delete but couldn't find a way to. Will edit.


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## flamencosketches

. .


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## staxomega

Two of my musical heroes, would have loved to hear what they talked about


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## bluto32

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Sony released a wonderful box set that contained all of these - I snatched it up immediately. Still my reference recording for Beethoven's 5th piano concerto.


The fabulous box below was released in 2012 but went out of print within a few years. It seems to have just resurfaced again in the last week or so at most of the big online stores:









(You may need to search for "fleisher" rather than "szell" depending where you look.)


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## sstucky

A terrific recording of Szell’s orchestra without Szell is the Boulez Rite of Spring from 1969 on Columbia. It is cold, polished to the nth degree, and jaw-droppingly played. Stravinsky is supposed to have hated it.


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## flamencosketches

sstucky said:


> A terrific recording of Szell's orchestra without Szell is the Boulez Rite of Spring from 1969 on Columbia. It is cold, polished to the nth degree, and jaw-droppingly played. Stravinsky is supposed to have hated it.


That is an awesome recording. Did Stravinsky really hate it? I don't really find it worlds away from his own recording with the Columbia SO from a few years earlier.


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## Heck148

sstucky said:


> A terrific recording of Szell's orchestra without Szell is the Boulez Rite of Spring from 1969 on Columbia. It is cold, polished to the nth degree, and jaw-droppingly played. Stravinsky is supposed to have hated it.


That Boulez/Cleveland. "Le Sacre" is one of the best...excellent in every regard.


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## vincula

wkasimer said:


> Me neither. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.


So true 

Thrilling reading of these famous symphonies. SQ's mesmerizing. The artwork's great too. A beautiful edition. If you spot this album out there, snap it up.









Regards,

Vincula


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## jegreenwood

vincula said:


> So true
> 
> Thrilling reading of these famous symphonies. SQ's mesmerizing. The artwork's great too. A beautiful edition. If you spot this album out there, snap it up.
> 
> View attachment 140711
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


I actually have 8 and 9 on SACD. (Plus the big Szell box. )


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## Heck148

flamencosketches said:


> That is an awesome recording. Did Stravinsky really hate it? I don't really find it worlds away from his own recording with the Columbia SO from a few years earlier.


The Boulez/Cleveland "Le Sacre" is really excellent, great playing, conducting...the main quibble (only one really) I have with it is the opening bassoon solo...it is very well played by the great principal bassoonist, George Goslee - but it's very straight, not very expressive sounding...but, I believe he played it exactly as Boulez wanted it...very simple, elemental, a primeval consciousness awakening .
I've always thought it more of an invocation of sorts, a summoning of the spirits to the titual celebration, needs some "espressivo"...but that's a totally subjective issue- Boulez obviously had a solid concept in mind, and it was executed most expertly.


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## perempe

Interested in proper pronunciation? It's not <zel>, it's <seɪl>.
https://en.glosbe.com/hu/en/szél


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## JB Henson

Heck148 said:


> The Boulez/Cleveland "Le Sacre" is really excellent, great playing, conducting...the main quibble (only one really) I have with it is the opening bassoon solo...it is very well played by the great principal bassoonist, George Goslee - but it's very straight, not very expressive sounding...but, I believe he played it exactly as Boulez wanted it...very simple, elemental, a primeval consciousness awakening .
> I've always thought it more of an invocation of sorts, a summoning of the spirits to the titual celebration, needs some "espressivo"...but that's a totally subjective issue- Boulez obviously had a solid concept in mind, and it was executed most expertly.


Boulez also plays Sacrificial Dance slow, which is always a deal breaker for me.


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