# Do you recklessly elevate one composer above all others?



## Couchie

I suspect some people as being as mono-obsessed with certain composers as I am with Wagner. This is your chance to come clean.


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## Kevin Pearson

I don't hide the fact that I am a fan of several composers but I don't promote them obsessively or recklessly. I honestly do not have any "one" composer I feel that way about. I only have composers that I return to often because they give me great pleasure. It kind of creeps me out when people become obsessive about any composer. Being a Star Trek enthusiast has helped me with the concept of "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" (IDIC). I like diversity. I also really enjoy a good steak but I wouldn't want to have one every day or that be my steady diet. I think that's not healthy.

Kevin


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## Couchie

Kevin Pearson said:


> I don't hide the fact that I am a fan of several composers but I don't promote them obsessively or recklessly. I honestly do not have any "one" composer I feel that way about. I only have composers that I return to often because they give me great pleasure. It kind of creeps me out when people become obsessive about any composer. Being a Star Trek enthusiast has helped me with the concept of "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" (IDIC). I like diversity. I also really enjoy a good steak but I wouldn't want to have one every day or that be my steady diet. I think that's not healthy.
> 
> Kevin


And yet with the infinite diversity of great women men will commit to sleeping with just _one _for the rest of his life... we call this _love_, _[insult removed]_


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## Kevin Pearson

Couchie said:


> And yet with the infinite diversity of great women men will commit to sleeping with just _one _for the rest of his life... we call this _love_, _[insult removed]_.


And I feel that this kind of response is exactly what I was referring to in another thread this evening. I think it was disrespectful, unkind and inconsiderate. I would never post something as cruel about you no matter what I might personally think of you.

Kevin


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## Couchie

Kevin Pearson said:


> And I feel that this kind of response is exactly what I was referring to in another thread this evening. I think it was disrespectful, unkind and inconsiderate. I would never post something as cruel about you no matter what I might personally think of you.
> 
> Kevin


Cruelty is the insincerest form of flattery.


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## Ramako

Beethoven and Haydn


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## Guest

Ramako said:


> Beethoven and Haydn


Recklessly? Surely not?

In my case, I'd say Debussy. I've heard much less of his work, and so cannot really 'reck' his worth. I've not listened to everything by Beethoven, but I think I'm on safer ground elevating him.:lol:

(Just goes to show...when I thought it was safe, along comes someone...)


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## Ramako

MacLeod said:


> (Just goes to show...when I thought it was safe, along comes someone...)


Yeah, me too


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## Renaissance

I guess Beethoven and Bach. But I try not to be a fanatic.


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## jani

Me? I don't do it


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I recklessly elevate Elgar.


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## MaestroViolinist

Wieniawski. :devil: Except I'm not really reckless, I should be though, then maybe more people would listen to him (or not).


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## science

The composers I have lately advocated/enjoyed more than most here seem to are Fauré, Enescu, Janáček, and Honegger.


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## PlaySalieri

Not recklessly.
I tend to put the masters together - Bach Mozart Beethoven Schubert Brahms - they are the kings as far as I am concerned and I rarely make statements to the effect that one is better than the other. I will, being a Mozart fan, be more likely to acknowledge one of the other 4 - and say for example - Schubert's great quintet in C is at least as good as any M chamber music and maybe better.
I would not hesitate to put down a minor master - CPE Bach for example - if someone starts to suggest they are better, or under-rated or anything like that as it has become quite a fad to pluck a composer out of obscurity and start championing him to the detriment of the masters. I can't, for example accept a statement like: "You should hear Salieri's requiem - it's better than Mozart's" - I think such a remark should really be responded to as there is nothing - except the hearers own opinion - which back ups that claim - no reason to believe it or even put it to the test.


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## poconoron

Yes, I tend to elevate Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Schubert and Haydn above all others. I admit it.


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## perduto

Guess my only "reckless elevation" is Luigi Nono (but I'm not dangerous)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

perduto said:


> Guess my only "reckless elevation" is Luigi Nono (but I'm not dangerous)


Luigi Nono definitley deserves more reckless elevation than he has been getting.


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## Mephistopheles

I can understand obsessions, I have my own, but sometimes I worry for your sanity, Couchie.


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## science

perduto said:


> Guess my only "reckless elevation" is Luigi Nono (but I'm not dangerous)


Excellent choice.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Do I "recklessly elevate" Russian composers when I am obsessed with them (i.e. are they synonymous)? I obviously know their weaknesses compared to other composers of other countries, that they aren't for everyone, etc. so isn't my elevation of them nonetheless done reasonably? I consider being obsessive over a composer meaning *you love 99% of their music*, but is that wrong? I won't idolize my favorite composers, but I can't help saying they mean more to me than other composers, that's just the way it is. I'm just recklessly passionate about sharing them with others.


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## starthrower

I thought reckless elevation was strictly a male problem!


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## neoshredder

What I prefer and what are considered the best are obviously different. But I don't think my opinion trumps everyone elses. I'm especially not too fond of Brahms.


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## jani

I elevate Beethoven above others because i can relate to the emotions/feelings in his music and his life.


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## Manxfeeder

I really like Bruckner and Beethoven. When I first started with classical music, I recklessly promoted Beethoven, but I've wrapped my car around so many trees, now I stay pretty much between the lines.


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## clavichorder

Sure. I'm personally pretty devoted to the music of Nikolai Medtner.


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## Klavierspieler

No.

Schumann is the greatest composer who ever lived. Nobody can ever surpass his genius.


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## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I recklessly elevate Elgar.


We all know that---but you spell his name Ligeti,and that's pretty reckless!


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## neoshredder

Better than spelling his name Ligetti. lol And it is hard not to elevate Ligeti.


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## moody

neoshredder said:


> Better than spelling his name Ligetti. lol And it is hard not to elevate Ligeti.


It is spelled Ligeti on COAG's posts or is his spelling incorrect?


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## Rapide

Couchie said:


> I suspect some people as being as mono-obsessed with certain composers as I am with Wagner. This is your chance to come clean.


Many people do. But the key is - many people will not admit to it. I elevante Boulez above all others. 

Why is the OP banned?


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## Cnote11

No, I don't. I do not have time for such silliness.


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## campy

I most certainly do not recklessly elevate one composer above all others. 

I devoted a great deal of thought to the matter before I decided which one to elevate above all others.


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## peeyaj

I don't recklessly elevate a one composer to another with the exception of a certain composer whose initial is F.S.


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## BurningDesire

peeyaj said:


> I don't recklessly elevate a one composer to another with the exception of a certain composer whose initial is F.S.


....Frederic Shopin? Fohann Sebastian Bach? Frank Sappa? Farnold Schoenberg? Figor Stravinsky? Franz Siszt?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Fomposer of Savant-garde?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

BurningDesire said:


> ....Frederic Shopin? Fohann Sebastian Bach? Frank Sappa? Farnold Schoenberg? Figor Stravinsky? Franz Siszt?


Actually it's Fryderyk Szopen.


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## Xaltotun

I would like to recklessly elevate one composer above all the others... I understand this, it's like _l'amour fou_, obsession, religion, fanaticism... I'd like to be like that, but I can't. It seems I'm a dirty polytheist and worship at at least three or maybe seven altars!


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## BurningDesire

Dude, John Dunstaple was teh graetest composer evar. Music ain't been near as good since him.


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## Klavierspieler

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Actually it's Fryderyk Szopen.


Actually it's Фредери́к Франсуа́ Шопе́н.


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## BurningDesire

Klavierspieler said:


> Actually it's Фредери́к Франсуа́ Шопе́н.


I love his music


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## IBMchicago

Mozart, JS Bach and Schubert - I admit.


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## neoshredder

IBMchicago said:


> Mozart, JS Bach and Schubert - I admit.


No Beethoven? AH


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## trazom

IBMchicago said:


> Mozart, JS Bach and Schubert - I admit.


Those composers make up my Holy Trinity as well.


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## Sid James

My honest response to the title of this thread is that I never 'recklessly elevated' any composer above others. But I have done the reverse, 'recklessly put down' other composers (guess who it is, mainly?). Basically as a backlash against such composers being thrown in my face in online discussions of classical music. But before discussing music online, I had no big time hatred for any composer.

So there you go. Elevate at your peril (maybe?). It might end up putting people off your 'idol' rather than attracting them to it. The way I try to 'promote' music I like is just say what I know or think about it, not make the composer into a god.


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## BurningDesire

Sid James said:


> My honest response to the title of this thread is that I never 'recklessly elevated' any composer above others. But I have done the reverse, 'recklessly put down' other composers (guess who it is, mainly?). Basically as a backlash against such composers being thrown in my face in online discussions of classical music. But before discussing music online, I had no big time hatred for any composer.
> 
> So there you go. Elevate at your peril (maybe?). It might end up putting people off your 'idol' rather than attracting them to it. The way I try to 'promote' music I like is just say what I know or think about it, not make the composer into a god.


I do that with Mozart  but not quite recklessly~


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## brianwalker

I recklessly elevate conductors..


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## Sonata

Yes and no. What I mean, is I get in the mood for a certain composer, and at that time I am obsessed with them. I listen to their music almost every day for a few days or even weeks. It's usually temporary. Once that phase passes then I have a broader scope, though I still have my favorites. I've been through Mahler, Mendelssohn, and Mozart phases. I've been through a Ravel phase, a Strauss phase, Chopin, and I am currently in a Brahms phase.


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## etkearne

I was essentially solo-obsessed with Bela Bartok for the first five years of my classical journey (starting around 10 years ago). I liked other composers, especially Ligeti, but none took the stage with Bela!

Now I feel otherwise. I let Bartok share the top tier with a handful of other composers like Ravel, Ligeti, and Schoenberg.


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## Flamme

Mussorgsky...


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## Novelette

I can't supply such a normative term as "reckless" to it, but I'm inclined to become fascinated and singularly devoted to a single composer's music for an indefinite period of time. I will obtain every recording I can find and "consume" them. When I'm in that state, I tend to talk about them repeatedly.

I've cycled my obsessions through Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Cherubini, Rameau, Palestrina, Tallis, Corelli, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Rachmaninov, etc. I am currently in a fit over Schumann. 

It's actually useful for me to become so well acquainted not only with the music of a specific composer, but with the life and context of that composer. It gives the music a new character, a new animation, a new depth for me. I don't think that this is reckless; perhaps a bit single-minded when I'm in such a fit, and I'm sure my fellow TC associates can become annoyed by my constant mention of Schumann, but we all enjoy music differently. I certainly don't restrict myself only to the composer of obsession at all. Currently, I'm listening a lot to Schumann, but I'm also listening to Haydn and to Couperin. 

But I try my best to disclaim that my laudations are based on opinion, I would hesitate to exclaim that one composer is objectively "better" than another.


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## Ondine

My favourite is Mozart, but I do not elevate him. That is absolute non sense; he is already elevated.


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## PetrB

Naw... that is just your personal projection to help rationalize it is not a serious disorder. Find others, surround yourself, and within that context you can pretend it is a completely average mind-set instead of a serious clinical disorder: -)


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## arpeggio

*Debase*

Actually there have been three composers that on a few occasions I have excessively debased:

Cage
Xenakis
And um...Let's see...It is...It's this 19th century guy. Ok Its is...No it is not him...OK, it iiissss, nooo not him...Let me think, let me think...Hmmmmm...I'VE GOT!!! I NOW REMEMBER!!!! It's...No it is not him either.

I will have to get back to you guys on this one.


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## neoshredder

Yes. I elevate CPE Bach above other Classical Era Composers.


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## davinci

Novelette said:


> I can't supply such a normative term as "reckless" to it, but I'm inclined to become fascinated and singularly devoted to a single composer's music for an indefinite period of time. I will obtain every recording I can find and "consume" them. When I'm in that state, I tend to talk about them repeatedly.
> 
> I've cycled my obsessions through Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Cherubini, Rameau, Palestrina, Tallis, Corelli, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Rachmaninov, etc. I am currently in a fit over Schumann.
> 
> It's actually useful for me to become so well acquainted not only with the music of a specific composer, but with the life and context of that composer. It gives the music a new character, a new animation, a new depth for me. I don't think that this is reckless; perhaps a bit single-minded when I'm in such a fit, and I'm sure my fellow TC associates can become annoyed by my constant mention of Schumann, but we all enjoy music differently. I certainly don't restrict myself only to the composer of obsession at all. Currently, I'm listening a lot to Schumann, but I'm also listening to Haydn and to Couperin.
> 
> But I try my best to disclaim that my laudations are based on opinion, I would hesitate to exclaim that one composer is objectively "better" than another.


I understand as it describes myself as well. I will become obsessed with a certain composer and buy every recording available to find the "best" version. It's been Bruckner for about 2 years now; it may qualify as an addiction. But it has also been Beethoven and Haydn in the past.


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## KenOC

Well, I suppose it's Beethoven. But I'm not really "elevating" him. After all, who else is there?


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## DeepR

I usually end up elevating them all for their individual masterpieces.


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## Renaissance

Not anymore. I elevate more than one composer now :lol:


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## Arsakes

(Too-)late Romantic Composers!


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## Tristan

I'm Tchaikovsky-obsessed. I will admit to that. I will admit to buying music I'd never heard, only because it was by Tchaikovsky, and for no other reason.


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## samurai

Tristan said:


> I'm Tchaikovsky-obsessed. I will admit to that. I will admit to buying music I'd never heard, only because it was by Tchaikovsky, and for no other reason.



Hi, Tristan. Have you heard his first three symphonies yet? They have been a real eye--oops, I mean, ear--opener for me!


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## Tristan

Yep. I love the first three symphonies; particularly the 1st. It's too bad they get far less performance than the latter three!


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## samurai

@ Tristan, I absolutely agree with you about the relative lack of attention seemingly paid to these first three works as compared to that given to his later works, which are--of course--fine as well in their own right.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Tristan said:


> Yep. I love the first three symphonies; particularly the 1st. It's too bad they get far less performance than the latter three!


I love the first symphony too, probably my favourite of all six (seven if you include Manfred)


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## DeepR

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I love the first symphony too, probably my favourite of all six (seven if you include Manfred)


The third movement was one of the first classical pieces I fell in love with.


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## Ravndal

I need variation.. Only listening to one composer bores me to death. It has happened one time, and that was when i discovered Bach WTC book 1 (played by Mr GG). Listened to it a couple hours every day for 2 or 3 weeks. It wasn't an obsession though.. Its just incredibly good music.


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## Mahlerian

I hope not, but I may tend to put in a good word for Schoenberg and Mahler more often than I ought. But I put Bach, Debussy, and Stravinsky (all periods) on the same level, so whether it comes out or not in my posts, I try not to elevate one composer above all others.


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## SiegendesLicht

I do. The same one as the original poster.


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## Flamme

Mahlerian said:


> I hope not, but I may tend to put in a good word for Schoenberg and Mahler more often than I ought. But I put Bach, Debussy, and Stravinsky (all periods) on the same level, so whether it comes out or not in my posts, I try not to elevate one composer above all others.


Who would thunk???


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## tgtr0660

Constantly. Bach above all the rest. Recklesly. 

Though not really reckless. So many years of classical music love make me sure of my choices


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## stevenski

Paderewski, Medtner and Moszkowski


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## clavichorder

samurai said:


> @ Tristan, I absolutely agree with you about the relative lack of attention seemingly paid to these first three works as compared to that given to his later works, which are--of course--fine as well in their own right.


I also agree with him in specifying the 1st over the 2nd or 3rd. The latter two are great, but the 1st is a work of genius in my opinion. Does anything kick more butt than that finale?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I go for more modern in my classical taste - and I'd have to pump for Varese - it goes without saying for me -as he led on to people like Pierre Boulez. And influenced many others like Luigi Dallapiccola, John Cage, Olivier Messiaen, Luigi Nono, Krzysztof Penderecki, Alfred Schnittke, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, and Frank Zappa.......


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## BurningDesire

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I go for more modern in my classical taste - and I'd have to pump for Varese - it goes without saying for me -as he led on to people like Pierre Boulez. And influenced many others like Luigi Dallapiccola, John Cage, Olivier Messiaen, Luigi Nono, Krzysztof Penderecki, Alfred Schnittke, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, and Frank Zappa.......


what do you think of Varese's one surviving early work?


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## Rapide

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I go for more modern in my classical taste - and I'd have to pump for Varese - it goes without saying for me -as he led on to people like Pierre Boulez. And influenced many others like Luigi Dallapiccola, John Cage, Olivier Messiaen, Luigi Nono, Krzysztof Penderecki, Alfred Schnittke, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, and Frank Zappa.......


That's a hilarious avatar and location name!!


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## Flamme

Nice EARS too


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Rapide said:


> That's a hilarious avatar and location name!!


Just seen your reply- thanks ive just changed heads - but big ears will be back .......


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

yea bummer about losing all those works I wrote in Europe in the Berlin warehouse fire damn. you mean the Belgium thing mmmmm let me think - yes I remember quite a pretty thing very different from my later stuff much more classical than mdoern.

Think I lost it a bit with Bourgogne, bugga cant remember it now....

but at least I used to come up with stuff like - "The present day composers refuse to die. They have realised the necessity of banding together and fighting for the right of each individual to secure a fair and free presentation of his work"


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## ArtMusic

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> yea bummer about losing all those works I wrote in Europe in the Berlin warehouse fire damn. you mean the Belgium thing mmmmm let me think - yes I remember quite a pretty thing very different from my later stuff much more classical than mdoern.
> 
> Think I lost it a bit with Bourgogne, bugga cant remember it now....
> 
> but at least I used to come up with stuff like - "The present day composers refuse to die. They have realised the necessity of banding together and fighting for the right of each individual to secure a fair and free presentation of his work"


Say what, mister?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

ArtMusic said:


> Say what, mister?


Excuse me - I should have included the quote from BurningDesire I was responding to - hope this helps makes some sense of this. Refer to post #74

Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese

I go for more modern in my classical taste - and I'd have to pump for Varese - it goes without saying for me -as he led on to people like Pierre Boulez. And influenced many others like Luigi Dallapiccola, John Cage, Olivier Messiaen, Luigi Nono, Krzysztof Penderecki, Alfred Schnittke, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, and Frank Zappa.......

what do you think of Varese's one surviving early work?


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## Rapide

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I go for more modern in my classical taste - and I'd have to pump for Varese - it goes without saying for me -as he led on to people like Pierre Boulez. And influenced many others like Luigi Dallapiccola, John Cage, Olivier Messiaen, Luigi Nono, Krzysztof Penderecki, Alfred Schnittke, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, and Frank Zappa.......


Who's that crab-head featured in your Avatar?! Ha!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Rapide said:


> Who's that crab-head featured in your Avatar?! Ha!


sorry for being so slow to respond- don't know exactly strange pic I just found and thought it made good Avatar - I have swapped again since...


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## BeverlyAnne

Kevin Pearson said:


> I don't hide the fact that I am a fan of several composers but I don't promote them obsessively or recklessly. I honestly do not have any "one" composer I feel that way about. I only have composers that I return to often because they give me great pleasure. It kind of creeps me out when people become obsessive about any composer. Being a Star Trek enthusiast has helped me with the concept of "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" (IDIC). I like diversity. I also really enjoy a good steak but I wouldn't want to have one every day or that be my steady diet. I think that's not healthy.
> 
> Kevin


I like the way you think and the way you express yourself good sir. :tiphat:

I have a fondness for Vivaldi that dates back to my University days when I worked on a group project involving matching up poetry with The Four Seasons. And I return always to Mozart-I think Wolfgang was my "first love" when I first started listening to classical. :kiss: Chopin & Liszt & their piano perfection is forever dreamy and romantic and soothing to the soul. And last but not least Tchaikovsky's ballets can be listened to again and again.

I feel like I've just given a True Hearts confession. Talk about baring your soul! LOL

BeverlyAnne


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## lovesbeethoven

hey guys i'm new on here but i thought i might post. 
i elevate beethoven waaay too much. an unhealthy amount. but i know that will change so i am not too worried about it. i suppose next it will be clementi, and then haydn, mozart, liszt etc.


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## KRoad

Couchie said:


> I suspect some people as being as mono-obsessed with certain composers as I am with Wagner. This is your chance to come clean.


I do not in the least favour one composer over another, as all in their own way contribute to that vast body of music that we as consumers are privileged to enjoy.

But _why_ Couchie are you obsessed with Wagner? Is it the music? Is it the man? Because you live in Canada, perhaps? Do you like Jews? Are you a fan of Nordic mythology? Do you harbour extreme rightwing tendencies? Does the Wagner Tuba do it for you? Do you like uniforms? Or, again, is it the music? If the music, can you be more specific as to which qualities set it apart in your self-confessed mono mind?

Couchie please - Come clean! You have so much to share.


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## SiegendesLicht

KRoad said:


> But _why_ Couchie are you obsessed with Wagner?


I am afraid Couchie is not here anymore to answer that question, but since I am just as much a fan of Wagner as he, may I answer those questions in his stead?



> Is it the music?


Yes, it is first and foremost the music.



> Is it the man?


Yes, I think certain qualities of the man: his genius and his patriotism and devotion to his native German literary heritage are worthy of respect as well.



> Because you live in Canada, perhaps?


Does the fact that you live in Germany influence your opinion of Wagner?



> Do you like Jews?


I find the tenacity with which they hold to their land and their culture worthy of admiration.



> Are you a fan of Nordic mythology?


Yes, and also of "sword and sorcery" literature (which largely draws its inspiration from this mythology) and of the German language. One of the reasons I put Wagner above all other composers is that he wrote his own libretti and did it exclusively in German.



> Do you harbour extreme rightwing tendencies?


Rightwing yes, but they are in no way extreme.



> Does the Wagner Tuba do it for you?


Wind instruments "do it for me" generally.



> Do you like uniforms?


And what in the world does that have to do with Wagner?



> Or, again, is it the music? If the music, can you be more specific as to which qualities set it apart in your self-confessed mono mind?


Since I know zero about musical theory (it's a shame, I know) I can only express these qualities in terms like beautiful, powerful, full of energy, expressive (especially in parts that evoke images of nature, like the Forest Murmurs and Siegfried's Rhine-journey where you can almost see the water glittering in the sunlight), sometimes very lyrical (Tristan und Isolde) and sometimes downright barbaric (prelude to act II of "Die Walküre"). Generally it is the combination of the music, the stories and the German-language singing that does it for me.


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## KRoad

SL: convincingly answered and thank you for sharing so candidly. 

If I may summarise then: you are rightwing, love the German language, admire the German patriotism imbedded in W's libretti and are moved by the powerful (sometimes barbaric) visual imagery generated in your mind by his music. Presumably you think Couchie (based on your knowledge of him/her) would explain his mono-tendency with a similar rationale? 

Concerning your two questions. Yes, the fact that I live in Berlin, Germany influences how I perceive Wagner and also how I perceive a great deal else in the world - especially in association with how "outsiders" perceive the Germans, Germany and Wagner.

I threw the "uniform" bit in to add a bit of salt & pepper. 

Would you like to be a German S.L.? I'm curious since your screen name and responses to the above Q's suggest a certain admiration for this country.


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## SiegendesLicht

KRoad said:


> If I may summarise then: you are rightwing, love the German language, admire the German patriotism imbedded in W's libretti and are moved by the powerful (sometimes barbaric) visual imagery generated in your mind by his music.


I know, this is an extremely suspicious combination  But I don't really care for any kind of _radicalism_, whether left, right, red, green, brown or other.

Concerning libretti, there are not all that many openly pro-German, patriotic statements in them. I can think only of Hans Sachs' final address in "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg" and some of King Heinrich's speeches in "Lohengrin". The patriotism is more evident in the fact that Wagner drew on German legends and German literary traditions for his texts. Wagner's literary style itself, the alliteration that he used in the Ring instead of conventional rhyme comes from early medieval poetry of Germanic nations, but had hardly been used for at least six centuries, and it was Wagner who made a revival of it (later the same style was used by Tolkien who also seemed to be greatly devoted to exploring his nation's oldest literary legacy). Wagner admired Weber's "Freischütz" as the very first opera that was made of purely German material in German language, but he himself went much farther on the same path.



> Yes, the fact that I live in Berlin, Germany influences how I perceive Wagner and also how I perceive a great deal else in the world - especially in association with how "outsiders" perceive the Germans, Germany and Wagner


Now if I may ask, how do you yourself perceive Wagner?



> Would you like to be a German S.L.? I'm curious since your screen name and responses to the above Q's suggest a certain admiration for this country. .


Maybe this will sound like so much whining, since I have already said many times in various topics that I am dissatisfied with my current place of residence (Belarus) and would like to change it, but yes, I would.


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## KRoad

SiegendesLicht said:


> Now if I may ask, how do you yourself perceive Wagner?


Okay, Belarus. I was unaware. The country's modern history and Lukashenko, together with his style of politics, can explain a lot...

Wagner to me remains at this point in time a relatively unknown quality and quantity. I realize that Wagner is unavoidable for anyone interested in the development of 19thC classical music and I am set to tackle him in a methodical and systematic fashion - when time and capacity allows. I have a "recommended" Ring Cycle on DVD, his complete works on CD and a second version of the Ring Cycle - just for the heck of it. In addition I have a recently published libretto to the cycle and a good biography of the man himself and his music - so you see, I'm all set to go. However, over and above constraints of time, what has given me second thoughts about throwing myself with total abandonment into Wagner's undoubted artistic triumphs is his unsavoury reputation - both as a man and thinker.

I realize one must separate the man himself from the product of his labour, but in the case of W. his reputation goes before him. He seems by all accounts to have been a decidedly most unpleasant man and though his anti-semistism was certainly not anything out of the ordinary for the day and age he lived in, can one listen to his music unmoved by the fact that it found a certain resonance among the Nazi elite? Okay, we've been here before (to the point of extreme tedium) so I won't labour the issue. Suffice to say I will (when time allows) approach my Wagner moments with an open mind and then, perhaps I too will share your (and C's enthusiasm) for W. In the meantime, I think it only fair for anyone who claims to rate any one composer above another to be prepared to say, in meaningful terms, why. Couchie, (bless him) has not and in so doing has compromised his credibilty. You S.L., on the other hand, have, Thank you.


----------



## mmsbls

KRoad said:


> Is it the music? Is it the man? Because you live in Canada, perhaps? Do you like Jews? Are you a fan of Nordic mythology? Do you harbour extreme rightwing tendencies? Does the Wagner Tuba do it for you? Do you like uniforms? Or, again, is it the music? If the music, can you be more specific as to which qualities set it apart in your self-confessed mono mind?


I do not elevate Wagner above all others although I would rate only a select few above him. My daughter would place even fewer above Wagner. Our answers:

_The music_

Yes, yes, yes, yes! The music is magnificent, beautiful, awe inspiring, etc.

_The man_

Couldn't care less with regard to his operas.

_Do you like Jews?_

We generally like almost all individuals and don't care about their race, creed, nationality, etc. (we are part Jewish).

_Are you a fan of Nordic mythology?_

My daughter more than I.

_Do you harbour extreme rightwing tendencies?_

Decidedly not.

_Does the Wagner Tuba do it for you?_

Not especially fans of the tuba, but we love Wagner's brass.

_The music_

Like SiegendesLicht I do not have music theory training so my response revolves around the overall beauty of his music. My daughter, however, is a music student who has taken a course in Wagner's Ring Cycle along with many music theory courses. She gushes about Wagner's ability to weave his lietmotifs seemlessly throughout his operas, his ability to modulate quickly and beautifully, his overall control of both the orchestral and voice score. Above all, she finds his music expertly written _and_ immensely beautiful.

No question, Wagner is great, but neither of us elevate him above all others.


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## kv466

I don't do this with any composers but I sure do with a couple of pianists


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## Ingélou

Jean-Baptiste Lully. 2 months ago, I hadn't heard of him. Now I'm obsessed. I read about his tragic demise - death by conducting - & that made me want to sample him. And at once, I was mesmerised...


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## Ravndal

I read that he died because he got gangrene in his toe, and refused to amputate (which would most likely save his life).


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## KenOC

Ravndal said:


> I read that he died because he got gangrene in his toe, and refused to amputate (which would most likely save his life).


It seems that in those days you conducted by banging your staff on the floor. Now it might seem difficult to miss the floor, but Lully did...


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## Couchie

KRoad said:


> I do not in the least favour one composer over another, as all in their own way contribute to that vast body of music that we as consumers are privileged to enjoy.
> 
> But _why_ Couchie are you obsessed with Wagner? Is it the music? Is it the man? Because you live in Canada, perhaps? Do you like Jews? Are you a fan of Nordic mythology? Do you harbour extreme rightwing tendencies? Does the Wagner Tuba do it for you? Do you like uniforms? Or, again, is it the music? If the music, can you be more specific as to which qualities set it apart in your self-confessed mono mind?
> 
> Couchie please - Come clean! You have so much to share.


I return from the grave to tell you that all of these irrelevant questions are daylight's blinding deception, my friend.

It is important to not try and listen to Wagner's music - *drink of it*.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

What guise has Couchie returned in now....?


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## Couchie

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What guise has Couchie returned in now....?


A third life! Unfortunately I have lost the email and password to my original beloved Couchie account. A moderator could perhaps return them to me?

I thought I would be shoving Messiaen down your fine folk's throats by now, but Wagner remains insurmountably sticky as ever... am I doomed to this obsession forever?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ Do we need to hide the Valkyries.................


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## Couchie

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ Do we need to hide the Valkyries.................


Alas, presumably they were all consumed in the burning of Valhalla at the end of Götterdämerung....


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## Sid James

& here I was relieved that whenever I get on this forum, I don't have to be reminded of the composer I love to hate.

EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Oh well back to normal (or abnormal?).

****.


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## Couchie

Sid James said:


> & here I was relieved that whenever I get on this forum, I don't have to be reminded of the composer I love to hate.
> 
> EVERY SINGLE DAY.
> 
> Oh well back to normal (or abnormal?).
> 
> ****.


Ah Sid, I missed you the most of all!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

CouchiePotato said:


> A third life! Unfortunately I have lost the email and password to my original beloved Couchie account. A moderator could perhaps return them to me?
> 
> I thought I would be shoving Messiaen down your fine folk's throats by now, but Wagner remains insurmountably sticky as ever... am I doomed to this obsession forever?


Have you noticed my new obsession yet?


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## SiegendesLicht

Sid James said:


> & here I was relieved that whenever I get on this forum, I don't have to be reminded of the composer I love to hate.


*Psychologist mode* But you need to let go of your hate. Hate is counterproductive, you know?


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## Couchie

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Have you noticed my new obsession yet?


I would guess your male organ. You're that age.


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## Sid James

CouchiePotato said:


> Ah Sid, I missed you the most of all!


Well thanks but no more rants from me against your hero. I actually am more balanced about him now. Acknowledge his greatness in some ways at least. But still don't like him.



SiegendesLicht said:


> *Psychologist mode* But you need to let go of your hate. Hate is counterproductive, you know?


Yeah I know but when a thread is about a topic that's got completely nothing to do with Wagner, then we get the Wagner card being raised, I think "not again." Seriously, I mean this is not a Wagner forum, its a classical music forum - which includes Wagner but also other things. Many other things. He's just one composer of many.


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## Couchie

Sid James said:


> Well thanks but no more rants from me against your hero. I actually am more balanced about him now. Acknowledge his greatness in some ways at least. But still don't like him.


Well you may be more of a Wagnerite than I in some respects as in some respects I find his "greatness" quite ingenuine. And yet such a genius! And greater than Bach!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

CouchiePotato said:


> I would guess your male organ. You're that age.


Please refrain from your indecency, Couchie. It is *Mendelssohn.*


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## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Please refrain from your indecency, Couchie. It is *Mendelssohn.*


Same here but also Corelli for me.  Both are better than Wagner.


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## Couchie

neoshredder said:


> Both are better than Wagner.


I thought we were refraining from indecency?


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## neoshredder

CouchiePotato said:


> I thought we were refraining from indecency?


lol 10 charactors


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## KenOC

neoshredder said:


> Same here but also Corelli for me.  Both are better than Wagner.


I, too, once thought Wagner a great composer. Then I heard Raff...

Just kidding folks! :lol:


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## Sid James

CouchiePotato said:


> Well you may be more of a Wagnerite than I...


I don't think so.



> ...in some respects as in some respects I find his "greatness" quite ingenuine.


What exactly do you mean?



> ...And yet such a genius!


I can accept that he's a genius, at least to some extent (eg. innovation & influence).



> ...And greater than Bach!


If you say so.

But honestly, during the time you've been away, my impression is the forum 'culture' has changed. Its more relaxed and open now, I think people are more comfortable to just say what they think, cut the bull****. A few weeks ago I put on my ignore list [name removed] and [name removed], who I see as the last remnants of the 'old ways' of this forum, the ways of treating people with lack of basic respect and even attacking them (often indirectly - the gutless way) for saying their honest opinion. & since that time, I never looked back, I can do things without getting emotional and saying things I regret.

Face it Couchie, the writing is on the wall. The kind of idolisation is fine, but shoving down people's throats Wagner, or Mozart, or Bach, or whatever sacred cow - even John Cage - its over now. & I hope its over for good. Same goes with ideology, of any extreme - conservative or radical. Most people are not of those extremes. So why need we be forced to play games with people of these extreme views? Waste of time is what I say.


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## Rapide

CouchiePotato is back! Is that the green monster from previously?!


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## Ingélou

Eek!  What kind of a forum have I joined?!?


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## Aries

I elevate Anton Bruckner about all other composers.


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## violadude

Ingenue said:


> Eek!  What kind of a forum have I joined?!?


??????????????


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## jani

Ingenue said:


> Eek!  What kind of a forum have I joined?!?


You should have seen our Beethoven vs Mozart thread


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## Ingélou

Wish I had! Go to it, gladiators...


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## MaestroViolinist

jani said:


> You should have seen our Beethoven vs Mozart thread


Don't forget "a thread for people who don't like Mozart"


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## KenOC

And other topics as well.

I read a little posting
That put me in a rage!
I hope the rat is roasting,
He wrote about John...


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## MaestroViolinist

Ingenue said:


> Eek!  What kind of a forum have I joined?!?


The best classical music forum on the internet. You know why? Because we're all nice to each other.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

And we don't ever mention John Cage..............................

or discuss Mozart and Wagner

Plus we all love Modern compositions, especially those from 1900 on and do go much for stuff earlier than that!


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## neoshredder

MaestroViolinist said:


> Don't forget "a thread for people who don't like Mozart"


I regret the comments I made in that thread. lol


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## Sid James

I would add to what I've said on this thread that the issue is not reckless elevation of one composer over others. The issue is more a member elevating themselves over us other idiots (in their distorted view) who don't value what they value. Or don't value it like a God or fetish or religion. As I said, can be any composer. That's the problem, that's what has caused conflicts in the past. How sad that they need to do this, resort to these games. Anyway I will not say anything else for fear of being censured and censored.



MaestroViolinist said:


> The best classical music forum on the internet. You know why? Because we're all nice to each other.


Well, I think the forum is definitely better than before, people are way better at communication here now than before (from what I can gather, I don't read that many posts here, but my overall view is that it is better, much more so than last year).

But I'm not putting myself forward as the communication guru of this forum. I'm always learning how to communicate better, not only here but in the real world. Sometimes we are all tested, sometimes we fail, but what I try is to learn from these experiences. Trust me its hard for me, I can be very impulsive but as I get older I realise that restraint and addressing the issue at hand, not shooting the messenger, is what works most of the times. Plus I don't walk away regretting what I said or how I acted in these difficult situations.


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## realdealblues

I would say I elevate all the composers I feel strongly about. Mozart, Mahler, Beethoven, Bach, Schubert, Brahms, Chopin, Dvorak, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Haydn, Mendelssohn, Wagner, Schumann, Vivaldi, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams and the Strauss Family all come to mind off the top of my head.

At the same time though I realize those are my personal preferences and I don't go around on here telling others their taste in music sucks. 

Kind of hitting on what Sid James just posted about. There's a lot of guys on here who like the Atonal stuff. I personally don't, but I don't go on to a post where people are talking about Carter or Cage or Bartok and say, they suck. Some people do that and I don't understand it. If you hate Mozart why do you go onto a post about Mozart and spout off about how terrible he is?

I don't know that I'm as optimistic as Sid James is but I've seen that time and time again on this forum over the years and I still don't understand why so many folks do that. You don't need to express your opinion on everything. Let the people who like Mozart talk about Mozart and the people who like Bartok talk about Bartok. Why post on something just to stir things up and make people angry?


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## KRoad

realdealblues said:


> Why post on something just to stir things up and make people angry?


Well, from polemic comes stimulating debate for one thing. If we're all going to scratch each others backs in an obliging manner, that's hardly likely to drive forward our understanding of music, let alone our ability to argue and challenge each other is it? I mean, who wants the aural equivalent to elevator music in a forum devoted to classical (or any other genre of) musical debate?


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## realdealblues

KRoad said:


> Well, from polemic comes stimulating debate for one thing. If we're all going to scratch each others backs in an obliging manner, that's hardly likely to drive forward our understanding of music, let alone our ability to argue and challenge each other is it? I mean, who wants the aural equivalent to elevator music in a forum devoted to classical (or any other genre of) musical debate?


Not everyone wants to debate. When did this forum become, Musical Debate 101? Some folks come here just looking for recommendations.

If someone says, "Hey I like Mozart's Piano Concerto #20, could you recommend me some other recordings I might like?" So, your response would be "Mozart sucks, why are you bothering listening to that childish crap. Listen to Bartok's 3rd Piano Concerto and then we'll talk".

How is that a debate?

Or if someone starts a Thread for "People Who Love Bach". How is going in there and saying "Baroque sucks and he's rubbish" stimulating a debate?

If a Thread is for "People Who Love Bach" I want to talk to other people about that composer or the works they wrote and which ones we enjoy. Not have a debate on whether or not the composer is any good because someone doesn't like them.

It's one thing when you're discussing a philosophical issue, but I find nothing "stimulating" about someone coming into a thread that is about someone they don't listen to or like and just saying "so and so" sucks just because I don't like them. That's not a debate. It's more along the lines of "you must be a lesser person than me because you don't like what I like".


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## Sid James

KRoad said:


> Well, from polemic comes stimulating debate for one thing. If we're all going to scratch each others backs in an obliging manner, that's hardly likely to drive forward our understanding of music, let alone our ability to argue and challenge each other is it? I mean, who wants the aural equivalent to elevator music in a forum devoted to classical (or any other genre of) musical debate?


Its not necessarily what you say, its the way you say it. Knowledge is one thing, and disagreeing with someone is fine, but doesn't mean we throw out basic respect and manners. Rudeness and arrogance kind of sours the mood, cancels out anything good in a message anyway. I just try to put things as straight as possible. & people then tend to be more understanding and forgiving if I make a mistake. They know you're not playing games like in the school yard. I mean we're adults, aren't we?



realdealblues said:


> At the same time though I realize those are my personal preferences and I don't go around on here telling others their taste in music sucks.


That's what I'm saying, I agree with that.



> Kind of hitting on what Sid James just posted about. There's a lot of guys on here who like the Atonal stuff. I personally don't, but I don't go on to a post where people are talking about Carter or Cage or Bartok and say, they suck. Some people do that and I don't understand it. If you hate Mozart why do you go onto a post about Mozart and spout off about how terrible he is?


Same here, I now avoid threads on say Wagner, whose music I dislike (not to speak of his rassenkunde ideology). But if I go there, I am out of my depth anyway, I am not a Wagner expert by any means, so there is no point in me trolling a Wagner thread.


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## Ravndal

I must admit that i have given Ravel far more chances than any other composer.


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## KRoad

Sid James said:


> Its not necessarily what you say, its the way you say it. Knowledge is one thing, and disagreeing with someone is fine, but doesn't mean we throw out basic respect and manners. I am out of my depth anyway, I am not a Wagner expert by any means, so there is no point in me trolling a Wagner thread.


I might include this as an addendum to my "polemic" comment above...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> I regret the comments I made in that thread. lol


Sacrilege!!! Blasphemy!!! Mozart *sucks!!!!!* :lol:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^The Ayes have it - motion past -it now to be moved into law, LAW law........... *Mozart sucks!!!!!*


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## KenOC

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^The Ayes have it - motion past -it now to be moved into law, LAW law........... *Mozart sucks!!!!!*


 Oh dear. The behavior this time of night is somewhat...unrestrained.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Note in the House of Lords (Eddie version), its only 4pm local time...........


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## KenOC

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Note in the House of Lords (Eddie version), its only 4pm local time...........


Well of course some of us start earlier than others. :lol::lol::lol:


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## DavidA

For me there are certain composers I go to more than others - Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, Bach.
But I believe that in music variety is the spice of life and there is a richness in listening to many different kinds of music.
I can find something to like and stimulate in a lot of music from Tallis to Stravinsky. 
I must confess these avant-garde types which write music that appears to me to resemble a piano falling down a flight of stairs don't do anything for me apart from give me an urgent desire to turn the radio off or switch to Classic FM. But that is maybe my failing. 
I think for the good of our own artistic souls (such as they are) we must not become mono-maniacs!
BTW while I reverence the composers' talents I do NOT admire many of them as men. Often as men they were pretty awful. Hence one has to separate the music from the man.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DavidA said:


> I must confess these avant-garde types which write music that appears to me to resemble a piano falling down a flight of stairs don't do anything for me apart from give me an urgent desire to turn the radio off or switch to Classic FM. But that is maybe my failing.


You're right, but it does sound awesome!!!


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## Ingélou

Sounds a lot like the symphonies I used to perform with my sister when we were eight and four respectively ... missed our vocation!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

me why would I do that ........


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## Guest

Scriabin. Of course.


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## DeepR

dogen said:


> Scriabin. Of course.


You're in good company as he did so himself.
I am over this phase, for now....


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## Guest

DeepR said:


> You're in good company as he did so himself.
> I am over this phase, for now....


You're just in denial of the truth.


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## Eva Yojimbo

The closest I come is with Mozart, whom I listen to and am moved by so frequently that it becomes easy for me to find all others lacking by comparison. Though I've admittedly gone through similar phases with other composers--Beethoven, Mahler, Wagner, Handel--Mozart has persisted in his dominance.


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## Razumovskymas

I certainly do!


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## Merl

As most people on here know, if anything I elevate orchestral music above many others and of these Beethoven symphonies are my 'thang', however I'd say I'm open to anything. If I like it I like it.... For example I really enjoy Arvo Part's orchestral music but don't much care for his largely choral catalogue.


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## Tallisman

Yeah, I'm fairly mono-obsessed with Bruckner. He's just my guy.


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## dillonp2020

I see Bach and Beethoven as gods, the rest are of less concern.


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## Manxfeeder

Tallisman said:


> Yeah, I'm fairly mono-obsessed with Bruckner. He's just my guy.


Of course, the OP said, who do you_ recklessly_ elevate? There's nothing reckless about elevating Bruckner.


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## agoukass

Chopin. I have more than 700 pieces by him in my collection. However, I don't mind this at all. He is one of my favorite composers and as someone who plays the piano, who can blame me?


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## Woodduck

agoukass said:


> Chopin. I have more than 700 pieces by him in my collection.


You've _counted_ them? I trust you have a good filing system.


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## goatygoatygoatgoat

No, I don't recklessly elevate one composer above others. I used to stupidly elevate Bach (I focus mainly on Baroque), but then I heard amazing works from many other Baroque composers and realized it's about as dumb as saying "who's your favourite director" or "what's your favourite movie". There's no way to say that one is greater than another - especially since many works have been lost over time. Who knows what amazing music was permanently lost in the wars in Europe.


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## agoukass

Yes, I use Microsoft Excel. It's around 700 and change because I tend to group the Etudes and Preludes together. I don't listen them individually unless they are individual tracks on the recordings that I'm entering.


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## Joe B

*Do you recklessly elevate one composer above all others?*

Of course, but it changes almost as fast as I change discs. Unlike many at TC who have solid opinions about composers and performers, I am more often than not in complete awe at the compositions and performances I listen to. Sure I play some composers more often than others, but it's simply because of the experience I have when listening to their music. Because a composer "does it for me" doesn't mean I think he's better than another composer. Hell, I wish it were that simple. For me music is a completely subjective venture. Others can debate their views of composers and musical works. Me? I'll just keep enjoying all this fine music.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Would using an old fashioned record changer record player be considered recklessly elevating one composer above others?


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## KenOC

Using those old 78 RPM record changers was certainly reckless. As often as not, when one record completed, the tone arm would cycle back but no record would fall. The tone arm would set back down on the record just played, and then...only then...the next record in the stack would come crashing down right on top of the tone arm.

Does anybody else recall the shock and awe of those moments? :lol:


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I did it to old Jazz records so I guess its ok


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## Capeditiea

i did once... which ended up being madness, the world of composers decided it was a great idea to bombard me with various things... which then their ghosts collectively decided to visit me... and play "come to your owner, little doggy." thing, which then the one who was silently just chilling ended up being my favourite... Sorabji. 

but since then... i calmly gravitate towards them now


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## Merl

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Would using an old fashioned record changer record player be considered recklessly elevating one composer above others?


Only if you pile them up at the top of the centre spindle with the arm across, so they play one after the other. Ah, how I remember how the 3rd LP you played in this way would slip and run slow. And then we played 33rpm albums on 78rpm just for fun (and 45s on 16).


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## KenOC

Merl said:


> Only if you pile them up at the top of the centre spindle with the arm across, so they play one after the other. Ah, how I remember how the 3rd LP you played in this way would slip and run slow. And then we played 33rpm albums on 78rpm just for fun (and 45s on 16).


I was given an old windup Victrola that I used to play my fathers precious LPs when he was at work. If I pushed down on the needle, spirals of vinyl would come up off the record surface.

I told my father about this in later years. He just looked at me and said, "I always wondered why those records wore out so fast."


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## 20centrfuge

I put Prokofiev a bit higher than everyone else. I can't justify it much more than to say that I like his music a bit more than everyone else's.


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## Peenut

I have a _very_ unhealthy obsession over Shostakovich's late music. I'll defend him to the grave if need be.


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## Überstürzter Neumann

I elevate Bruckner, but not recklessly so. 
Reckless I save for my love affairs...


----------

