# Mozart Early Symphonies



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Maybe I listened to the wrong performances - but until now I never could really get into the early Mozart symphonies (1-23). I listened to Mackerras and Bohm mainly - but in my Brilliant Classics complete Mozart I have the period instrument performances by Jaap Ter Linden - listening in the car today to the disc of symphonies 14-17 I was really amazed - the pacing seems just perfect - and the period instruments sound fresh and lively. Going through each movement I could not find any music I did not think was well worth listening too - it is much better than I thought and I look forward to going through the whole set and finally discovering the early Mozart symphonies.

So my question for TC members - which performances do you like and why. Period? Small band? Modern? And which symphonies stand out for you in the early works?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Finding Böhm, Leinsdorf, etc. rather undistinguished, the symphonies only clicked with me, when I heard Harnoncourt - he brings a lot of temper, variation and different sounds to them. It's very different from Linden though.

He also recorded the late symphonies twice, there's an early, massive- and Beethoven-sounding set with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, which I prefer.

BTW, there's at least one earlier thread on the subject somewhere.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Harnoncourt recorded some symphonies twice, some thrice, but only a few.

He recorded 25, 26, 28-41 with the Concertgebouw in the 1980s. They were very unusual at the time: tempo choices (some slowish fast movements, some rather fast andante and menuet movements, rubati etc.), "HIP" phrasings and stark contrasts but with a large modern orchestra. The sound is also sometimes a bit harsh (like other early digital).
A few years later he made a bunch of live recordings (I think 38-41) with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe and also during the 1990s began recording the remaining early symphonies with the Concentus musicus, a few appeared on Teldec/Das Alte Werk but the whole of the early ones eventually on harmonia mundi/RCA. He re-recorded at least 25 and 26. (Finally, at the end of his live there appeared another live recording of 39-41).
Harnoncourt's early Mozart is quite "heavy", he takes them totally seriously and this might be "too much" for some listeners who might miss "elegance" and similar properties.
If you like Ter Linden, there is nothing wrong with them. 
There are surprisingly many recordings of Mozart's early symphonies. Leinsdorf, Böhm, Marriner, Tate, Pinnock, Levine, Graf, Ter Linden, Harnoncourt, one with an italian conductor on some supercheap label, so about 10 complete recordings, and probably a lot more of some numbers in the 20s such as 25-29.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I also have the brilliant classics as part of the complete Mozart series which I got for next to nothing. They are good performances which were looked down on by the critics because they were on a cheap label. But there’s nothing wrong with them. It must be remembered that Mozart’s early symphonies are the products of youth and not the sublime masterworks he later produced. But of course they are still better than most other people could write


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I got, heard parts of, and sold the super-cheap Italian recording (Arigoni) - can't recommend them, they seemed very bland.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The Graf/Mozarteum (Capriccio/Delta Music) from the late 1980s is also often found very cheap (also the single issues, if one wants to fill in gaps) and it is surprisingly good. It is not HIP but very good modern chamber orchestra, a bit more mellow than Marriner. I prefer Harnoncourt but overall I don't care enough about pre-25 to get more recordings of that music and I rarely listen to them.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I bought the Ter Linden on Brilliant cycle as a standalone set of SACDs! In surround sound!! - except they really weren’t. They’d been upsampled and electronically futzed with. And the one of the SACDs had a noisy click (apparently from the master). Much later, I picked up Pinnock. I listen to Ter Linden maybe once a year.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Pinnock's box set on period instruments is my go to for the early ones. Mackerras for the later ones.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

For Mozart's early symphonies, on period instruments, I listen mostly to Pinnock, Hogwood, & parts of Koopman's incomplete Erato cycle. I'll also occasionally play Harnoncourt's recordings, when I want to hear a different but interesting take on these works. However, I wouldn't quite recommend Harnoncourt's recordings as strongly as the others, or at least not as a first or second choice.

Pinnock:









Hogwood:





Koopman;





Harnoncourt:





While on modern instruments, I agree with Kreisler jr. about Hans Graf & the Camerata Salzburg--it's a good cycle, & especially in the early symphonies. But I also like & would recommend Emmanuel Krivine's incomplete cycle on Denon, with the Philharmonia Orchestra and Sinfonia Varsovia, as well as Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields on three Pentatone hybrid SACDS (or in the Eloquence AMSI remastered box set of the whole cycle: https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...riner+mozart+symphonies&qid=1634533756&sr=8-1). In addition, I own a couple of issues from Adam Fischer's cycle in Copenhagen, as well. All good, but I tend to prefer the period recordings.

Graf:





Krivine:





Marriner:












etc.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I totally forgot Hogwood that was in fact the pioneering original instrument Mozart cycle, accordingly with some roughness but maybe also a spirit of discovery... and also Adam Fischer although I have not heard anything of the latter.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Needless to say perhaps, I'm one of those who's not into HIP Mozart - but Harnoncourt does indeed strike a chord there.

I agree also about Levine as being good, and for the late symphonies, also Karajan/emi, Bruno Walter, and some others.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Of "historic" recordings, I think Klemperer is interesting for the "little g minor" and also the A major K 201. Fricsay recorded the latter twice but I don't think either is among his best, unfortunately. The earlier recording has him in his most abrasive, lean quasi-Toscanini mode and the later recording is a bit too soft and too slow.
I first got to know these two pieces on a Philips LP with Colin Davis but I don't think these recordings were ever on a single CD, maybe in some collection of Davis' 1960s-70s recordings. (I didn't have the single LP either but it was in some box with selected Mozart symphonies, by odd chance, early Mozart symphonies were among the first classical pieces I got to know because my father had apparently found this box cheaply.)

https://www.discogs.com/de/release/...ies-No29-No25-No32/image/SW1hZ2U6MzU4MTY4NDA=


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Yes, the 50s Klemperer RIAS no.25 is feverish, and certainly not in the style that one would associate the later Klemperer with:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> listening in the car today to the disc of symphonies 14-17 I was really amazed - the pacing seems just perfect - and the period instruments sound fresh and lively.


I listen to these things whenever I drive through old streets of my city and see all the antique buildings and fully-grown trees around me; then I feel a deep sense of "nostalgia" listening to them. I know it's silly, but they have an effect on me this way.








But it sometimes feels as though someone is telling me: "Wow.. HK.. you like this stuff? You poor thing!" 
"It's as if Mozart felt he had to reassure his audience that he would not lose them in a Gothic labyrinth in which their enlightened sensibilities would be darkened for all eternity. The poor things." -Woodduck


















PlaySalieri said:


> And which symphonies stand out for you in the early works?


21, 23, 26.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Love the symphonies in the K100s (12-27), only works for me w/ period instruments and HIP sensibility, the Brilliant collection does the job here

Forget about the fact he was 15 when he wrote this


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> 0:27


Btw, the slow movement from this (composed in 1785) sounds to me a bit like a more mature/elaborate version, despite the concertante style; note the similarities of expression: -5:05~11:17


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I've long gotten a kick from Mozart's juvenile (pre-teen) Symphony No. 1 (in E♭ major, K. 16). In fact, I used to play it for students every Mozart birthday, when I talked about Mozart and his role in the age of "Classicism". It's a brief and delightful work which amazes when one considers the age of the composer, however derivative the piece may be. I mean, when I was eight years old I couldn't even tie my shoes. Hearing this piece proves a humbling experience.

Though I have a couple sets of the complete Mozart symphonies, I greatly enjoy No.1 in the Leinsdorf performance.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> Btw, the slow movement from this (composed in 1785) sounds to me a bit like a more mature/elaborate version, despite the concertante style; note the similarities of expression: -5:05~11:17


that andante from no 15 was one of the movements that made me sit up and pay a bit more attention to the early symphonies.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Just stopped in my tracks by this lovely movement from Symphony No 6 - 2nd mvt - andante. K43.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

0:30 - this and Missa brevis in D minor K.65 contain some of Mozart's earliest chromatic passages


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

the slow movement of the 20th reminds me of this bit by C.P.E. Bach









Isn't the bit at 1:00, for instance, nostalgic? - something Tchaikovsky might have meant by "caressing properties".


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Well - still listening to them one after the other. Many of the movements are sticking in my mind. I have the Mackerras set too on Telarc. Having listened to many of Mozarts orchestral cassations divertimenti etc - it does seem to me that the first 24 symphonies are a notch above those. It seems that even from an early age Mozart had a high regard for the form and put in his best work. I have the Bohm set on LP but no record player sadly.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

So Mozart composed 50 symphonies or more. Things are getting complicated. Many doubtful works? Symphonies 2, 3 and 11 not by Mozart. K75 - an attractive piece with the minuet and trio as 2nd mvt - credited to Mozart but doesn't really fit in with Mozart's style at the time he was supposed to have composed it.

Glad I have got into these works.

Need to listen to some JC Bach symphonies to see if Mozart as a teen composer really was special, as I think he was - or whether he was just copying the best bits from other composers' works.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> Need to listen to some JC Bach symphonies


















(reminds me of Mozart K.385/i, thematically)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> Need to listen to some JC Bach symphonies to see if Mozart as a teen composer really was special, as I think he was - or whether he was just copying the best bits from other composers' works.


But the one Mozart really tried to surpass _strictly_ in his own _native_ idiom (and he succeeded) was the Salzburg master, and I certainly think he composed more exemplary symphonies (eg. No.8 in D (1764)) in Mozart's native idiom than the young Mozart, in terms of the style of mercurial passagework, dissonance treatment, especially in the developments --
No.22 in D (the numbering in the video title is wrong):




 (reminds me idiomatically of the Le Nozze di Figaro overture and K.465/i, in the development)




 (reminds me of K.551/ii)




, 19:39 (reminds me, in its themes [17:55], of Mozart K.200, which was composed 5 years earlier and also has certain C.P.E. Bach-like qualities.)
No. 20 in C (listen to the harmonies):




No.18 in C (I think the whole work is a masterpiece, even in the minuet, in using suspensions to build tension. Btw, you can tell by his stylish use of pedal points, he was a true organist, like Mozart ):




No.23 in F (the numbering in the video title is wrong):












No. 16 in A:




 (the writing for the woodwinds is reminiscent of K.251)




 (reminds me of Mozart's K.203; listen to the harmonies of the subsequent passages)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> Need to listen to some JC Bach symphonies to see if Mozart as a teen composer really was special


also look at













 (reminds me of Mozart K.550/iv)


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> So Mozart composed 50 symphonies or more. Things are getting complicated. Many doubtful works? Symphonies 2, 3 and 11 not by Mozart. K75 - an attractive piece with the minuet and trio as 2nd mvt - credited to Mozart but doesn't really fit in with Mozart's style at the time he was supposed to have composed it.
> 
> Glad I have got into these works.
> 
> Need to listen to some JC Bach symphonies to see if Mozart as a teen composer really was special, as I think he was - or whether he was just copying the best bits from other composers' works.


Originality is an anachronism in 18th century music -all composers copied extensively and JC Bach was a generation earlier, so you cant really compare the two


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Originality is an anachronism in 18th century music -all composers copied extensively and JC Bach was a generation earlier, so you cant really compare the two


But there were "regional dialects"; you'll get what I'm saying if you listen to the stuff I posted in #25 (eg. No.22 in D or No.23 in F)


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> But there were "regional dialects"; you'll get what I'm saying if you listen to the stuff I posted in #25 (eg. No.22 in D or No.23 in F)


Yes, and fashion trends - Gjerdingen talks about certain schema being popular in particular decades, the Meyer (1-2-7-1 in bass and 1-7-4-3 in soprano), for example was popular in the 1750s and 60s


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Symphony no 28 K200 - last movement presto

any comments?

best performance recommendations?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Yes, #28 is a bit underrated compared with K 183 g minor and 201 A major

Harnoncourt has "large scale" interpretations that take all these works very seriously.


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## Shea82821 (Nov 19, 2021)

PlaySalieri said:


> So Mozart composed 50 symphonies or more. Things are getting complicated. Many doubtful works? Symphonies 2, 3 and 11 not by Mozart. K75 - an attractive piece with the minuet and trio as 2nd mvt - credited to Mozart but doesn't really fit in with Mozart's style at the time he was supposed to have composed it.
> 
> Glad I have got into these works.
> 
> Need to listen to some JC Bach symphonies to see if Mozart as a teen composer really was special, as I think he was - or whether he was just copying the best bits from other composers' works.


Same thing with a personal favourite of mine: the symphony in A minor K16a. At best a middle-period work which got miscataloged, but I wouldn't doubt also it's just a contemporary piece of anonymous origin, that had the Mozart brand stuck onto it. I can't say either way, except in that it's a fine piece.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>


Listen to the harmonies in this movement written in 1773, in the "masonic" key of C minor




 [1:50~2:20].
Doesn't it anticipate 




(1785),
and the development of K.421/i


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

It has been on my to-do list, but finally got around to listening to the Mozart symphonies via the complete box set conducted by Marriner and Krips. None of the early Mozart symphonies really peaked my interest beyond some fairly straightforward and pleasant listening (the Haffner is really where it gets interesting for me). The early symphonies that I did enjoy from beginning to end are the following:

#5, #9, #16, #18, #21

After that, it is the usual suspects like #25, #31, and the late symphonies.


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