# The two types of chamber music.



## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

I feel that there are two types of chamber music..

In the very early classical period, chamber music was warm and delightful meant for the amusent of the guests and you know... giving them pleasant time, but in the late string quartets of Beethoven, the music was wild, experimental and filled with new ideas. The music is not meant for the public but its meant for the elite.

For me the first type of chamber music is to create a cozy atmosphere, and the second type is experimental and meant for the elit (for the lack of better term)


What do you think???


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I don't think elite is quite correct, or fair. But some people do hold the opinion that most chamber music is best served in a private setting and is not best served in large halls. Franz Schmidt was quite clear that his two string quartets were written for the performers and not an audience. Some conductors, eg Mahler, have had the opinion that if you want to play a chamber work in a large hall then the music needs to be adapted for it; hence his enlarged orchestrations of Beethoven and Schubert. He got a lot of flack for it. 

Of course chamber music evolved and became wild and experimental as you put it. But doesn't all music evolve and change over time? I frequently get together with fellow musicians and all we do is play wind quintets or whatever. Just for the thrill and fun of it. And thank God we don't have an audience; that could be humiliating!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"In its original sense, “chamber music” simply meant music which belonged to the nobility at court as opposed to music of the church or theater. This is confirmed in the contemporary writings of Johann Walter (Musicalisches Lexikon, 1732), Meinrado Spiess (Tractatus Musicus Compositorio-Practicus, 1745), and Heinrich Koch (Musikalisches Lexikon, 1802). By the mid-eighteenth century, it also was heard in the common household and served as a form of relatively inexpensive private entertainment. Although our current convention is to use the term to designate a medium which requires but one person to a part, during the 1700s, “chamber music” denoted something different. Eighteenth-century musicians and theorists recognized three functions of music: to enhance worship in church (ecclesiasticus), to heighten the drama in the theater (itheatralis), and to provide entertainment in the court or chamber (cubicularis). This distinction was maintained well into the last quarter of the eighteenth-century, not only amongst theorists but by the general public as well."
(The _String Quartet_, 1750-1797 : _Four Types_ of Musical Conversation by Parker, _Mara)_


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## feierlich (3 mo ago)

If you think about it it's kind of true for various kinds of classical music no? Especially concertos, which developed from "amusing" material to serious music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There’s plenty of serious17th century chamber music, think of Sainte Colombe’s duos, and William Tye’s consort pieces. Even in the 18th century chamber music was not as described in the OP - Haydn op 20 contains plenty of serious music. And of course we have all sorts of 18th and 17th century music for solo instrument too - lute keyboard and string instruments.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

feierlich said:


> If you think about it it's kind of true for various kinds of classical music no? Especially concertos, which developed from "amusing" material to serious music.


I must say, I think that some Baroque concertos are very serious - Georg Muffat’s for example.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> "Eighteenth-century musicians and theorists recognized* three* functions of music: to enhance worship in church (ecclesiasticus), to heighten the drama in the theater (itheatralis), and to provide entertainment in the court or chamber (cubicularis). This distinction was maintained well into the last quarter of the eighteenth-century, not only amongst theorists but by the general public as well."
> (The _String Quartet_, 1750-1797 : _*Four *Types_ of Musical Conversation by Parker, _Mara)_


What was or became the fourth type then?


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Franz Schmidt was quite clear that his two string quartets were written for the performers and not an audience


curious considering how attractive the first quartet in particular is -- indeed it's possibly my favourite quartet by any composer.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Tarneem said:


> I feel that there are two types of chamber music..
> 
> In the very early classical period, chamber music was warm and delightful meant for the amusent of the guests and you know... giving them pleasant time, but in the late string quartets of Beethoven, the music was wild, experimental and filled with new ideas. The music is not meant for the public but its meant for the elite.


There are several dimension that are often orthogonal to each other (as proper dimensions should be )
"chamber music" was not public in the same sense as later public concerts. It need not be literally chamber scale intimate with only players and a few friends but could be semi-public. As hammeredklavier said there was no clear stylistic difference between "chamber" music and e.g. a violin concerto in the 18th century although the latter would be "large scale" for us.
And in fact, around Beethoven's time chamber music became *more public *with e.g. the Kreutzer sonata "written in a "molto concertante" style" and there arose professional string quartets because the music became often too difficult for amateurs. (Nevertheless, 18th & 19th century amateurs were often very competent musicians, IIRC some Brahms chamber premieres were played with amateurs.)

I'd also say that most chamber music is/was in between late Beethoven on the one hand and a ~1760s mixed woodwind/strings divertimento (like JC Bach's) on the other hand. In the late 17th century there is mannered "edgy" stuff (but sometimes also entertaining and picturesque) like Biber's but also Corelli's that became exemplary for form and balance.

There was also lots of "pleasant" chamber music at the time of late Beethoven, e.g. Hummel or stuff that is mostly forgotten now, such as arrangements of famous opera pieces.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I suppose a lot of chamber music was written to be played at home. Much of it was genial. But some geniuses (of any era) just couldn't help themselves producing music that went deeper and said more. As for the big sub-genres, quartets and piano (or harpsichord) sonatas, it seems to me that great composers have long used them to produce works of profundity.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

3 kinds. Classical, Romantic, and Modern.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tarneem said:


> I feel that there are two types of chamber music..


Yep, I agree. Chamber music that you you like and chamber music that you don't.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Merl said:


> Yep, I agree. Chamber music that you you like and chamber music that you don't.


I beg to differ, four kinds - chamber music you like, chamber music you don't like, chamber music you have yet to make up your mind about and of course chamber music you haven't heard yet


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Malx said:


> I beg to differ, four kinds - chamber music you like, chamber music you don't like, chamber music you have yet to make up your mind about and of course chamber music you haven't heard yet


Stop being pedantic Malx! OK, I'll take your 4 and raise it to 5 by adding 'chamber music that hasn't been written yet to the list. Ner ner! 
🤭


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Merl said:


> Stop being pedantic Malx! OK, I'll take your 4 and raise it to 5 by adding 'chamber music that hasn't been written yet to the list. Ner ner!
> 🤭


I think that may be covered under my fourth option


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Malx said:


> I think that may be covered under my fourth option


I beg to differ, Two completely different things. 😝


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

How about chamber music as a way into the private and intimate thoughts of the composer?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Isn't it 52 types of chamber music? ...like different kind of duos, trios, quartets and quintets...oh...sextets, septets, octets, nonets...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> There was also lots of "pleasant" chamber music at the time of late Beethoven, e.g. Hummel or stuff that is mostly forgotten now


The Schumanns, Schubert, Liszt, Chopin preferred on various occasions to play Hummel Septet in D minor, and Schumann, Chopin liked to use words like "immortal" to describe works of Hummel. So there we have- "judgement by 'renowned musicians' in history".


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Reading comprehension: "Hummel OR stuff that is mostly forgotten..." I did neither write nor claim that pieces like the Hummel septet or e flat minor quintet are forgotten, I explicitly set Hummel *apart* from the "mostly forgotten" . Neither are they as "arcane" as late Beethoven, insofar it was not very daring to contrast the more virtuoso and brilliant Hummel pieces with difficult late Beethoven. (Again, I cannot avoid pointing out that most of my opinions are boring "received wisdom", not in any way provocative.)


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