# Concertgebouw disturbance



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

My parents attended a concert last week of the RCO.

A man came in and released a balloon up to the ceiling. Attached to the balloon was a 'rape-alarm' or a siren of some sort which made a huge racket. Eventually they popped it through a whole in the ceiling. Unknown reasons!


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> My parents attended a concert last week of the RCO.
> 
> A man came in and released a balloon up to the ceiling. Attached to the balloon was a 'rape-alarm' or a siren of some sort which made a huge racket. Eventually they popped it through a whole in the ceiling. Unknown reasons!


The 'reasons'? Disturbed and confused. Should be captured and shipped to New Guinea, to be placed in the care of a remote indigenous tribe.


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well I havent been able to find anything, but the 'word-of-mouth' is that he was an american student of the famous dutch composer Cornelis de Bondt. A protest against government art-policies. The student has been arrested.

Even more amusing is the rumour that the composer was invited to do something scandalous on the night; 'scandal' was the theme of the concert (_Le Sacre _was performed), but the organisers are saying it should not have occured during the actual concert.


----------



## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

What a silly protestor. Policalisation of music in a concert hall or anywhere (including internet sites) are totally absurd.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Idiot!


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I find this funny, but then I don't attend concerts.


----------



## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Concertgebouw Orchestra finally coming to Australia in November.
The best orchestra in the world never to have visited here.
This makes me very happy, although the programmes aren't fantastic.
We'll take what we can get.
GG


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Perhaps you are unaware of the earlier somewhat similar notorious episode which took place in the Concertgebouw, perpetrated by a Young Louis Andriessen and colleagues? They called their group the "Notenkrakers" (after the ballet by Tchaikovsky) and disrupted a concert by using party noise-makers, whistles, etc. in protest of the orchestra's highly conservative programming of almost exclusively older works by deceased composers! Their protest did have effect on the Concertgebouw's programming, though I find the means of the "Notenkrakers" a bit childish (though also funny, and the composers were all very young at that time.)

Here is a reverent / irreverent (and clever) piece by Andriessen: "The nine symphonies of Beethoven for orchestra and ice cream bell."


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> The 'reasons'? Disturbed and confused. Should be captured and shipped to New Guinea, to be placed in the care of a remote indigenous tribe.


I love your methods of treatment. They are always highly original.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I would be furious as a concertgoer.

Why doesn't this stuff happen at Britney concerts, anyway?


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Novelette said:


> Why doesn't this stuff happen at Britney concerts, anyway?


I don't know if you've ever been to a pop concert (or concert of any kind of electric/amplified music) but they're very loud, I doubt it would cause enough of a disturbance to have the kind of effect it had at the Concertgebouw.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> I don't know if you've ever been to a pop concert (or concert of any kind of electric/amplified music) but they're very loud, I doubt it would cause enough of a disturbance to have the kind of effect it had at the Concertgebouw.


Something very high pitched and very loud could penetrate the mid-range and heavy bass. At any rate, I haven't been to a pop concert. My ears are very sensitive to loudness, I don't think I could enjoy a pop concert. =\


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Novelette said:


> Something very high pitched and very loud could penetrate the mid-range and heavy bass. At any rate, I haven't been to a pop concert. My ears are very sensitive to loudness, I don't think I could enjoy a pop concert. =\


It could, but your average <insert arena-playing pop star here> concert tends to carry on unless there's a fire in the arena or something.

I don't enjoy going to concerts much either. Last time I went to a heavy metal concert I got my face mashed in to the back of a fat sweaty guy and a crowd surfer kicked me in the head with his giant boots. I don't think that goes on at a Britney concert, but then there's the music...


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Should be captured and shipped to New Guinea, to be placed in the care of a remote indigenous tribe.


Then he could have those sharp sticks stuck through his...no, can't even think about it.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> It could, but your average <insert arena-playing pop star here> concert tends to carry on unless there's a fire in the arena or something.
> 
> I don't enjoy going to concerts much either. Last time I went to a heavy metal concert I got my face mashed in to the back of a fat sweaty guy and a crowd surfer kicked me in the head with his giant boots. I don't think that goes on at a Britney concert, but then there's the music...


Yeah, that doesn't sound fun to me either. Sorry to hear about your bad experience; that's just the kind of thing that I imagine happening to me, too.


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Someone causes a minor scandal at a concert devoted to scandal and people are surprised? Apparently scandals must be booked in advance and conform to a set criteria of scandalousness, just a tiny bit less scandalous than something that was scandalous 100 years ago. It should make people say "oh my how scandalous" but shouldn't actually upset people.

I bet the orchestra wish they regularly got the same kind of rapt attention that the balloon got.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

quack said:


> ... just a tiny bit less scandalous than something that was scandalous 100 years ago.....


A tiny bit?

They call this a scandal? Or even a disturbance? No, that's definitely not a scandal, the (ballet) premiere of the _Rite of Spring_, THAT was a scandal. Something like 30 broken arms resulted. A real riot. What about the one of works by Schoenberg and his students in Vienna. They had to stop the concert. Not to speak of in rock, techno and all that. There was a techno gig a couple of years back (in Germany, I think?) where people got trampled to death.

This by comparison is no big deal honestly. . .


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sid James said:


> No, that's definitely not a scandal, the (ballet) premiere of the _Rite of Spring_, THAT was a scandal. Something like 30 broken arms resulted.


Reference, I call for a reference!


----------



## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> Well I havent been able to find anything, but the 'word-of-mouth' is that he was an american student of the famous dutch composer Cornelis de Bondt. A protest against government art-policies. The student has been arrested.
> 
> Even more amusing is the rumour that the composer was invited to do something scandalous on the night; 'scandal' was the theme of the concert (_Le Sacre _was performed), but the organisers are saying it should not have occured during the actual concert.


Just read a newspaper article on the "scandal". It was indeed a plan hatched by De Bondt and two other composers - Jeremiah Runnels, the American student who let up the balloon and Yedo Gibson ("Atelier-Ballon"). They were asked to organise the afterparty of the concert, but the whole thing was cancelled a the last moment. One of the coordinators of the Concertgebouw insinuated that the group create a small scandal instead and so they did. In the Concertgebouw wasn't that amused by the whole thing, though.

Incidentally De Bondt was on the radio yesterday as well, during a registration of a retrospective of his works. He's retracting all of his music from public performance. For reasons I'm not sure I understand or rather find a bit too theoretical. De Bondt only wants his music to be performed in ways that are somehow innovative and shed new light on his music. 
The composer is a vocal critic of the anti-intellectual tendencies that dominate the Dutch view on culture at the moment, so his actions could be related to this.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Reference, I call for a reference!


I read that 'statistic' re broken arms at Rite of Spring premiere in a cd liner note of a performance by the conductor Monteux, who conducted that fiasco. Of course, the performance of the same work as a purely concert work went the other way. It was not long after (months after?). It went down a dream in the concert hall, Igor was carried outside the theatre on the shoulders of the audience. But the ballet was poorly rehearsed and Igor was no fan of the choreography but was persuaded to go ahead with it. So it was a scandal as a ballet but as a concert work it was a phenomenal success. Soon it was performed all over Europe and beyond and its place in the repertoire has been secure since. But as for Australia, it was only performed here for the first time in the 1950's, and as far as I know, in Russia/USSR in the early 1960's when Igor went there for his 80th birthday.

Anyway, adding to all that, I think the real scandal in classical music is this kind of resistance to certain things, esp. new or unknown/lesser known things. It tells me something - that I think is a let down - if this thing that occured in Amsterdam is a big deal. Its not really. Classical, or a good deal of it, is becoming like museum piece now basically. I wish it where not so. In Australia, its a mixed thing, some groups with interesting programming are thriving, others bit the dust with the GFC. The flagships continue down the warhorseville path which to me = death. But these are wider issues than this thread is meant to allow for. Just venting a bit here.

Now, the ***** Riot (girl's punk rock group) performance/protest against Putin in a church and their incarceration, that's a scandal!

http://www.talkclassical.com/20713-censorship-banning-non-classical.html

In terms of classical, the thing I detailed on this thread is scandalous imo, people leaving a concert during Mahler in like 2011!

http://www.talkclassical.com/15004-concertgoers-who-leave-during.html

But not negating emiel doing this thread, its yet another interesting bit of news/gossip on the classical music scene.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Not only is this the 100th anniversary of the Rite riot, but also that of the Skandalkonzert that rocked Vienna featuring works by Schoenberg and his friends. Contrary to popular belief, not all of the works were atonal; the Maeterlinck songs, Op. 13 by Schoenberg's erstwhile teacher Zemlinsky were played, as well as Schoenberg's own Chamber Symphony No. 1 in E major. These works are longer than the Webern Six Pieces and Berg Five Songs, a ppp 12-note chord in the latter of which apparently sparked the riot itself. A selection from Mahler's Kindertotenlieder was to be played afterwards, but the concert had long since stopped.

Operetta composer Oscar Straus said at the trial that the most harmonious sound heard the entire evening had been the smack of the first punch thrown. These composers and their works have survived. The operettas of Oscar Straus have become a novelty.

I'm going to commemorate the occasion by listening to the whole program.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Incidences like this are growing each day around the world. They may be a part of some anarchist front, or they may be the actions of a sick individual, armed or unarmed. No matter, each one is serious enough stuff. Be aware...each time you are in any crowded gathering.

For classical concerts, maybe a seat near an emergency exit is wiser than one which enjoys the best acoustic.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks Sid. I had never heard this! In fact, I have read claims that the whole "riot" was plotted by two or three people, including Igor, for PR purposes. Also that much of the objection was to the choreography, not the music.

Yes, I agree with you on the rest. Today, who cares enough to riot?


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Not only is this the 100th anniversary of the Rite riot, but also that of the Skandalkonzert that rocked Vienna featuring works by Schoenberg and his friends. Contrary to popular belief, not all of the works were atonal; the Maeterlinck songs, Op. 13 by Schoenberg's erstwhile teacher Zemlinsky were played, as well as Schoenberg's own Chamber Symphony No. 1 in E major. These works are longer than the Webern Six Pieces and Berg Five Songs, a ppp 12-note chord in the latter of which apparently sparked the riot itself. A selection from Mahler's Kindertotenlieder was to be played afterwards, but the concert had long since stopped.
> 
> Operetta composer Oscar Straus said at the trial that the most harmonious sound heard the entire evening had been the smack of the first punch thrown. These composers and their works have survived. The operettas of Oscar Straus have become a novelty.
> 
> I'm going to commemorate the occasion by listening to the whole program.


Might you have a recording recommendation for those Zemlinsky songs? I'm not hugely familiar with his work.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Crudblud said:


> Might you have a recording recommendation for those Zemlinsky songs? I'm not hugely familiar with his work.


The 2 cd set on EMI has them as well as his other songs with orchestra and also his choral works. Dunno if its in print anymore though. I esp. like his songs, incl. the Maeterlinck songs and the 'Orchestral Songs for baritone & orch.' based on German translations of poems by Afro-American poets of the Harlem Renaissance in between the wars. Its got this gritty and jazzy feel which is a kind of darker side to 'the roaring 20's.'


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Sid James said:


> The 2 cd set on EMI has them as well as his other songs with orchestra and also his choral works. Dunno if its in print anymore though. I esp. like his songs, incl. the Maeterlinck songs and the 'Orchestral Songs for baritone & orch.' based on German translations of poems by Afro-American poets of the Harlem Renaissance in between the wars. Its got this gritty and jazzy feel which is a kind of darker side to 'the roaring 20's.'


Much appreciated, Sid.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> The 'reasons'? Disturbed and confused. Should be captured and shipped to New Guinea, to be placed in the care of a remote indigenous tribe.


They could bring it to my place in Oz, is close to New Guinea, in a relative kind of way ....... Disturbed and confused is sometimes of interest - note only sometimes


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Might you have a recording recommendation for those Zemlinsky songs? I'm not hugely familiar with his work.


I actually only heard them for the first time recently myself. The only Zemlinsky I really know well is the Lyric Symphony.


----------



## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

GraemeG said:


> Concertgebouw Orchestra finally coming to Australia in November.
> The best orchestra in the world never to have visited here.
> This makes me very happy, although the programmes aren't fantastic.
> We'll take what we can get.
> GG


I would very much question your epithet "the best orchestra in the world". I heard the Concertgebouw in Vienna (The Musikverein) in 2011 when I was living there. I also heard the majority of the world's great orchestras at the same venue, in the same year. The Concertgebouw was not the standout - the Berliner Philharmoniker, Chicago Symphony and Wiener Philharmoniker were the standouts. There isn't much space between the great orchestras in terms of their musicianship, but those first three were extraordinary. The others - Royal Phil Orch, Dresdener and Berliner Staatskapelle, LAPO. Budapest, Paris, NYPO - all were absolutely fabulous.

I'm very pleased to hear the Concertgebouw is coming to Sydney. As a postlude to these comments, when I was in Amsterdam I heard some rather unflattering comments about the orchestra from some locals there!

Also, regarding the disturbance in the Concertgebouw. One night when I was attending the Musikverein a rock band was settling in across the road at Ressel Park. It appalled me that this kind of amplified noise could penetrate the Musikverein, which it did during the slow passages of the music. I wondered what would happen if the situation was reversed!!


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm very pleased to hear the Concertgebouw is coming to Sydney. As a postlude to these comments, when I was in Amsterdam I heard some rather unflattering comments about the orchestra from some locals there!


Oh please do tell! As a local I never heard anything negative from any music-lovers... maybe right-wingers spiteful about the meager subsidy 

I think there is very little difference between the orchestras you've mentioned, but ill throw in my personal experience. In the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I saw in one year; the Concertgebouw orchestra, the Berliner Philharmonic, The New York Philharmonic, The Mariinsky orchestra, the Budapest Festival orchestra etc.... And I strongly disagree with you!


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> I actually only heard them for the first time recently myself. The only Zemlinsky I really know well is the Lyric Symphony.


Ah, not to worry! In any case, I thank you for getting me interested in trying his lieder. I couldn't find the disc Sid recommended, but I did happen upon a two disc lieder set on Deutsche Grammophon (simply titled _Lieder_) while trawling the library. So I shall be hearing his Op. 13 pretty soon.


----------



## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

emiellucifuge said:


> Oh please do tell! As a local I never heard anything negative from any music-lovers... maybe right-wingers spiteful about the meager subsidy
> 
> I think there is very little difference between the orchestras you've mentioned, but ill throw in my personal experience. In the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I saw in one year; the Concertgebouw orchestra, the Berliner Philharmonic, The New York Philharmonic, The Mariinsky orchestra, the Budapest Festival orchestra etc.... And I strongly disagree with you!


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. The persons who made the negative comments about the Concertgebouw were tour operators who are also music-lovers and they expressed the opinion that the 'sound' of the orchestra had changed for the worse over the years - and that it certainly wasn't the orchestra it once was, much to their regret.


----------



## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I would very much question your epithet "the best orchestra in the world". I heard the Concertgebouw in Vienna (The Musikverein) in 2011 when I was living there. I also heard the majority of the world's great orchestras at the same venue, in the same year.


Ah, but you've misquoted me. You left out "never to have visited Australia". The Vienna Phil made their first visit here in 2006 (and returned in 2011), the Berlin Phil in 2010. And I attended the Sydney concerts of those orchestras, and I'd be surprised if the RCO could match them. Chicago came here in 1988, and I heard Solti conduct Brahms 4 in one concert, and Mahler 9 in the other...

My best chance of comparing all the orchestras was the 9 months or so I lived in London in early 1990. I reckon I averaged nearly three concerts a week, plus sundry plays, exhibitions, museums etc.
Back then, the BPO and VPO were still the kings (I heard them under Barenboim and Previn respectively), I reckoned the Philharmonia were on average the pick of the London bands, although it depended whether Tennstedt was conducting the LPO... The RCO did tour London then too, but I have a much greater memory of a fantastic Sawallish concert in Amsterdam with Schumann symphonies sounding clear and bright.

Even back then, I knew these would be amongst the great musical memories of my life, especially when I think of those I heard then who've since passed on: Giulini, Sinopoli, Tennstedt, Michelangeli, Rostropovich, Popp, Fischer-Dieskau...
cheers,
Graeme


----------



## Guest (Jan 27, 2013)

GraemeG said:


> Ah, but you've misquoted me. You left out "never to have visited Australia". The Vienna Phil made their first visit here in 2006 (and returned in 2011), the Berlin Phil in 2010. And I attended the Sydney concerts of those orchestras, and I'd be surprised if the RCO could match them. Chicago came here in 1988, and I heard Solti conduct Brahms 4 in one concert, and Mahler 9 in the other...
> 
> My best chance of comparing all the orchestras was the 9 months or so I lived in London in early 1990. I reckon I averaged nearly three concerts a week, plus sundry plays, exhibitions, museums etc.
> Back then, the BPO and VPO were still the kings (I heard them under Barenboim and Previn respectively), I reckoned the Philharmonia were on average the pick of the London bands, although it depended whether Tennstedt was conducting the LPO... The RCO did tour London then too, but I have a much greater memory of a fantastic Sawallish concert in Amsterdam with Schumann symphonies sounding clear and bright.
> ...


It's quite possible I misquoted or misunderstood you and I invoke a 'seniors' moment' in doing so!! I'm glad you had all those musical opportunities, and they sound absolutely extraordinary. I, too, had the same when we lived in Vienna for the whole of 2011 and I went to the Musikverein for dozens of concerts. It was a highpoint of my life, and we are going again this year on another long visa. I was at the 2010 concert of the BPO/Rattle in Sydney, sitting right behind the percussion/timp section, in the choir. Joy.

Cheers!


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

So is this concert pronounced Concert-"gebow" or "geboo"?


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Arsakes said:


> So is this concert pronounced Concert-"gebow" or "geboo"?


http://www.forvo.com/word/concertgebouw/


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> http://www.forvo.com/word/concertgebouw/


Login to hear it?

Bushwah!


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Login to hear it?
> 
> Bushwah!


 I dont have to, did you press the play triangle?

EDIT: maybe you pressed 'download mp3'?


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont have to, did you press the play triangle?
> 
> EDIT: maybe you pressed 'download mp3'?


Closest I get is to click on 'Scoub', which brings up a loooong list.


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Just for you hilly:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Kznh0CQuTC


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> Just for you hilly:
> http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Kznh0CQuTC


Thanks, guy. I hear a soft 'k' sound after 'concert' rather than a hard 'g' sound. Interesting.


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

That's right, and in the south of NL - Brabant/Vlanders it would be even softer:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1EhXKxRxScN

But I digress...


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

That guy was the best troll ever. :lol: It was still wrong, and didn't give a clear message to the audience, except that it was annoying and funny.

Maybe I should do (better) protests against European and American orchestras that don't perform enough Russian composers.  :tiphat:


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> The 'reasons'? Disturbed and confused. Should be captured and shipped to New Guinea, to be placed in the care of a remote indigenous tribe.


...shades of Evelyn Waugh's "A Handful of Dust" !!!!!


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I thought it's Scottish, but I realized the "*g*" which is pronounced like German "Ba*ch*" so It must be Dutch and the ending is indeed "Bow"!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Bow" like the one you shoot arrows with, or "bow" like to "bow deeply"?


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well you can listen to me pronouncing on the previous page, but its bow as in to bow deeply or as in the German Bau


----------

