# Was Beethoven a nationalist?



## Perotin (May 29, 2012)

I incidentally came across this on youtube:






Wikipedia sais, Germania was composed to celebrate the victory against Napoleon. So, was Beethoven a nationalist?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Perotin said:


> I incidentally came across this on youtube:
> 
> 
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> ...


It was composed to be included in a work by someone else. Beethoven was keen on Napoleon at one time but changed his views when it became obvious that the Emperor was a dictator.
Remember that there was no place named Germany at that time, Germania referred to a certain area.
The statue on your clip is Hermann's Denkmal that commemorates his victory over the Romans.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2013)

Perotin said:


> Wikipedia sais, Germania was composed to celebrate the victory against Napoleon. So, was Beethoven a nationalist?


Presumably no more than any other 'German' who would want to celebrate the victory against Napoleon. It might depend what you mean by 'nationalist'.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

He certainly was nationalist as an artist. He pioneered the usage of German instead of customary Italian in music notation, surely not because he was too lazy to learn foreign words, eh? Then there is the anecdote about Beethoven praising Weber's _Freischutz_ in the context of the work moving towards German national opera, largely independent from Italian fashion - I've read it in publication about Weber and I'm not sure how authentic the story is, but it seems as very natural thing for Beethoven to say, given what we know about him.

The _Germania_ piece, though, is very poor. Well, as glorious as the German victory it commemorates.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

He must have had some nationalistic/patriotic sentiment (which is surely not a bad thing, is it?), but certainly not on the scale of Wagner or Sibelius. Apart from this piece, there is hardly anything in his music that screams "I am German!" the way the music of the former does.

And the more fitting picture to that piece would have been this one:









The _Völkerschlachtdenkmal_ in Leipzig, commemorating the German victory over Napoleon at Leipzig in 1813.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I would have thought that the prospect of Napoleonus Caesar larging it over most of Europe would have made nationalists out of most people?


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## Perotin (May 29, 2012)

But Napoleon spreaded values of enlightenment and did away with feudalism, why such hard feelings against him? :lol: Anyway, this thread is about Beethoven and his nationalistic sentiments. Habsburg monarchy, where he lived and worked, was a multiethnic state, did he look down upon all those numerous nations of austrian empire?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Perotin said:


> But Napoleon spreaded values of enlightenment and did away with feudalism, why such hard feelings against him? :lol: Anyway, this thread is about Beethoven and his nationalistic sentiments. Habsburg monarchy, where he lived and worked, was a multiethnic state, did he looked down upon all those numerous nations of austrian empire?


Sorry if I appeared flippant there. Beethoven's home city of Bonn was under French control from between the 1790s and Napoleon's eventual defeat - even if Beethoven admired Napoleon's original pre-Imperial ideals I can't imagine him relishing the prospect of the Electorate of Cologne remaining in French hands for ever as Napoleon's territorial ambitions grew. I imagine the bombardment and siege of his adopted home of Vienna in 1809 exacerbated his resentment of Napoleon even if it didn't manifest itself into out-and-out nationalism.

My guess is that he became anti-Bonaparte rather than anti-French or excessively pro-German, especially as he was cordial towards admiring French visitors during the 1809 occupation.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm not sure if he personally was very nationalist. He was republican and anti-aristocracy, however. Also, his music has been used for nationalistic goals, i.e. Hitler felt that the music by Beethoven, Wagner, and Bruckner fully incapsulated the German spirit.


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