# National instruments...old & new...



## Sid James

A fun thread, guys (me hopes?).

Okay, well there's some stereotypical "national instruments" that we all know, esp. in terms of a country's folk music. But also other things.

You can make your own up, list an instrument or a few to a country or region. From old times and also today. What instruments do you associate with these places? Do your own contrasts.

SOme obvious ones:

West Africa - drums, percussions - now they combine their own musics with Western (eg. rock band)

Russia - in old times, the balalaika - what about now? DJ turntable, maybe? (I know that there's a big club scene there)

USA - in old times, the banjo - today it's more like the electric guitar (or maybe saxophone as well)

...there's many others but I'll leave it for you all. Everyone's will be different, of course. 

& as a "bonus question," do you have any music that instantly reminds you or makes you think of a place? Especially with these combinations you made up?


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## Dodecaplex

From China comes the beautiful Erhu. Though, to be honest, whenever I hear it I associate it with Japan rather than China, mainly because it reminds me of the soundtracks of an old Japanese video game that I used to play.

A truly gorgeous instrument, this Erhu.


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## violadude

Erhu for China.

Edit: Dodecaplex beat me to it! >.<


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## Art Rock

Shakuhachi and biwa for Japan.

In my blog I once posted about a concerto for tuned clogs and orchestra by a Dutch composer. The posting date was 1 April though....


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## SiegendesLicht

Sid James said:


> Russia - in old times, the balalaika - what about now?


And garmoshka.

The bagpipes for Scotland. Awesome instrument!

The vuvuzela for Africa.


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## TxllxT

Nothing can compare the clumping music coming out of the Dutch Wooden Shoe :lol:


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## HarpsichordConcerto

An obvious one from Australia. The Aboriginal Indigenous Australians play this instrument, the digeridoo.


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## Lunasong

SiegendesLicht said:


> The vuvuzela for Africa.


Africa is not a country...


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## Chrythes

Kanklės for Lithuania, and now, well - it's still played by ethnic ensembles, but like everywhere else it's been replaced by modern instruments.






But it can also be used to play "modern rock" -


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## kv466

From Peru: El Cajon










Made of cedar with an unmistakable sound.


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## Ukko

And of course there is the jewsharp. Don't know about Israel, but it was big in the Appalachians back in the day, along with the 'mountain' zither. The banjo, BTW, is a relatively recent development. I think the standard operating procedure was 'frailing' for a long time.


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## elgar's ghost

France, at least for the last century or so, has been associated with the accordion. The time I was there I never saw a single person playing one, so maybe it's an English-derived cliche/stereotype to compliment the preconception that every Frenchman must wear a beret and a stripy shirt, smoke Gauloises and say things like 'Sacre Bleu!' or 'zut alors!'.


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## Ukko

elgars ghost said:


> France, at least for the last century or so, has been associated with the accordion. The time I was there I never saw a single person playing one, so maybe it's an English-derived cliche/stereotype to compliment the preconception that every Frenchman must wear a beret and a stripy shirt, smoke Gauloises and say things like 'Sacre Bleu!' or 'zut alors!'.


I think 'Sacre Bleu!' has been replaced with 'merde'.


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## TxllxT

elgars ghost said:


> France, at least for the last century or so, has been associated with the accordion. The time I was there I never saw a single person playing one, so maybe it's an English-derived cliche/stereotype to compliment the preconception that every Frenchman must wear a beret and a stripy shirt, smoke Gauloises and say things like 'Sacre Bleu!' or 'zut alors!'.


Last year we were in Avignon. Lots of accordeon playing, but we saw only Russians & Rumenians holding the grips. Nice anyhow...


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## sah

From some countries in Africa: mbira or kalimba (and probably more names):


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## PetrB

elgars ghost said:


> France, at least for the last century or so, has been associated with the accordion. The time I was there I never saw a single person playing one, so maybe it's an English-derived cliche/stereotype to compliment the preconception that every Frenchman must wear a beret and a stripy shirt, smoke Gauloises and say things like 'Sacre Bleu!' or 'zut alors!'.


This is quite alive and well, and has always been almost exclusively a 'Parisian' phenomena - not 'French.'
The 'Valse Musette' is its most archtypical music.

Performers were, until recently, mostly working class men who were autodidact, sometimes their sons picking up the instrument and the tradition. Only lately women have been 'allowed' (or accepted).

In the less homogenous mix of what is a Parisian these days, you can hear quite a 'fusion' going on with newer pop elements, Arabic and African instruments, maybe some Asian / Vietnamese, going into the mix.


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## Norse

Norway has the _hardingfele_ (usually translated Hardanger fiddle). It's basically a version of the violin, but in addition to being more decorated, it has 4 extra so-called sympathethic strings that simply resonate with the upper strings. It's also often tuned differently, there are more than 20 different tunings being used.










There are other 'exotic' folk instruments here, but this is considered the national instrument, although I don't think that is 'official'.


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## Ukko

Norse said:


> Norway has the _hardingfele_ (usually translated Hardanger fiddle). It's basically a version of the violin, but in addition to being more decorated, it has 4 extra so-called sympathethic strings that simply resonate with the upper strings. It's also often tuned differently, there are more than 20 different tunings being used.
> 
> 
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> 
> There are other 'exotic' folk instruments here, but this is considered the national instrument, although I don't think that is 'official'.


I see the eight knobs, but can't see the sympathetic strings; where are they run?


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## Lunasong

They run under the fingerboard (There's a hollow channel grooved into the neck underneath the fingerboard). The bridge is flatter than a typical violin so it is not unusual to play two or even 3 strings at a time. As you can see by Norse's picture, the body is a bit narrower as well. The black decorations are called "rosings" and are on the back and sides of the instrument as well. The scroll head (which is cut off in pic) is carved in the shape of a lion or dragon or woman, much like a legendary Viking ship bow.
I have a _Hardingfele_ (my grandfather's) on display in my home.


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## Norse

They go below the fingerboard and are thinner. It's hard to see in the first picture, these are easier.

Edit: Guess I was too slow.


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## Lunasong

Well at least we agree. Beautiful instrument, the _hardingfele._


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## Ukko

Ah, excellent. Do you (or _Lunasong_) know of available recordings?


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## Norse

Lunasong said:


> Well at least we agree. Beautiful instrument, the _hardingfele._


I think you know more about it than I do. 

If I'm not mistaken they actually used it for the Rohan theme in the second LoTR film. It's supposed to give a Nordic viking-esque sound, I guess. The tune or playing isn't very hardingfele-like, though.

Its most well-known use in a more 'classical' setting is probably Geirr Tveitt's second concerto for hardingfele and orchestra, "Three Fjords".



Hilltroll72 said:


> Ah, excellent. Do you (or _Lunasong_) know of available recordings?


I don't really know that much about folk music. One well known Norwegian folk musician is Annbjørg Lien. This is a more song like tune from one of her albums. If you've seen Fargo you'll probably recognize it. I didn't even know the theme from Fargo was originally from her before I searched her on youtube just now..






Here she is with a more straightforward dance tune. I'm guessing this is a fairly modern tune, not one of those super traditional ones. But I don't really know.


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## Sid James

Thanks all for your contributions. Yes, that Norwegian fiddle does have a beautiful look.

Re. *accordions*, I also associate them with *French music*, esp. their popular song - eg. Edith Piaf and Charles Trenet often had the instrument accompany them - and there were virtuoso accordionists around in early to mid 20th century. One I have on disc was Gus Viseur, who did start as a busker and worked the cafes of Paris, then got really big there. He was originally Belgian. So, as suggested above, the accordion (or types of it) are use all over Europe, eg. the *Russians* have the* bayan, the button accordion*, harder to play than the piano accordion (the bayan gives out a different note depending on whether it's pushed in or out, the piano accordion gives the same note no matter which way it's pushed).

Re. the *Australian Aboriginal didgeridoo*, I think it's traditionally only played by tribes of Central Australia, that desert country. Of course that was way back, now over 200 years of white colonisation/settlement, it's as close enough as we have to our national instrument, whether you're in the central deserts or our big cities or in-between.

Yes, the *erhu *is what I think of when I think* China's tradtional music.* Their other instruments I have heard but they are more distant in my mind - eg. the pipa and zheng.

Others I would mention are -

*Spain* - the *guitar*

*North Africa/Middle East region *- the *oud*, a plucked string instrument, which made it's way to Europe and became the similar sounding lute

& talking of instruments that look good, the* Swiss alphorn *fits into that category, and this impressive thing was used to call the cows and communicate across the Alpine valleys -










I don't think I've heard one though. More info on that website HERE.

The alphorn is also claimed by the *Austrians *as one of their national instruments, but I associate with them the* zither*. That theme from Orson Welles' film_ The Third Man_, with Anton Karas playing zither, is so haunting in that context. Mr. Karas was also discovered in a Vienna cafe playing away, heard by Carol Reed, the director of that fim when he visited that city.


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## Ukko

Norse said:


> I think you know more about it than I do.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken they actually used it for the Rohan theme in the second LoTR film. It's supposed to give a Nordic viking-esque sound, I guess. The tune or playing isn't very hardingfele-like, though.
> 
> Its most well-known use in a more 'classical' setting is probably Geirr Tveitt's second concerto for hardingfele and orchestra, "Three Fjords".
> 
> I don't really know that much about folk music. One well known Norwegian folk musician is Annbjørg Lien. This is a more song like tune from one of her albums. If you've seen Fargo you'll probably recognize it. I didn't even know the theme from Fargo was originally from her before I searched her on youtube just now..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here she is with a more straightforward dance tune. I'm guessing this is a fairly modern tune, not one of those super tradional ones. But I don't really know.


Thanks much. I now have that music on tape (the cassette isn't _quite_ dead yet), and will check out Tveitt's works


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## Norse

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks much. I now have that music on tape (the cassette isn't _quite_ dead yet), and will check out Tveitt's works


Let me know if you want me to find more. It's probably easier for me.. 

The Koto should be mentioned, the national instrument of Japan.


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## Sid James

Norse said:


> ...
> The Koto should be mentioned, the national instrument of Japan...


Yes, & the *shakuhachi *as well, the Japanese bamboo flute. We have a master of it right here in Australia, Riley Lee. He has recorded his own albums and major composers here have composed for him too.


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## hawk

In the northwest Arnhem Land the didgeridoo ( name given the instrument in the early 1900's by British military officer) is called Mago. In the Northeast Arnhemland it is called Yidaki. There are many many "traditional names for it depending on geographical location, culture/people and purpose. Also as you said Sid it is found in north central areas as well...


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## Sid James

^^Yeah, I suppose that the didgeridoo is traditionally part of Aboriginal cultures all across the present-day Northern Territory, which includes those other places you mention.

& for fun, Rolf Harris' _wobbleboard _from his acts in the 1960's also kind of was seen as very Aussie, but I think the ancient didge has kind of withstood the test of time more than that (& maybe less cringeworthy?)...


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## Norse

Sid James said:


> Yes, & the *shakuhachi *as well, the Japanese bamboo flute. We have a master of it right here in Australia, Riley Lee. He has recorded his own albums and major composers here have composed for him too.


There's also the Shamisen, a sort of three stringed 'banjo'. It has a dry and 'thin' tone.


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## hawk

View attachment 3776


This instrument is, in recent times, a "national" instrument of the Nations of North America...By Nation's I am refering to the Indigenous peoples of this continent.

View attachment 3776


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## hawk

Ha!! Guess I wanted you all to see the flute twice!!! 

Don't know how this happened but I'll blame it on the solar storms....


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## Ukko

Does getting here before the Europeans did make the Amerinds 'indigenous'? Not being contentious, just want to get the terminology down.

[edit: BTW, that attachment didn't work.]


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## hawk

According to many of our histories we did not arrive on this land by way of a land bridge or by boat~
Many of our (hi)stories tell of being created here on this land...so indigenous works in this sense.
Not sure what is happening with the attachments?? They were there a minute ago but now I don't see them either??? Solar flares again 
Did it open when you clicked it??


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## Ukko

hawk said:


> According to many of our histories we did not arrive on this land by way of a land bridge or by boat~
> Many of our (hi)stories tell of being created here on this land...so indigenous works in this sense.
> Not sure what is happening with the attachments?? They were there a minute ago but now I don't see them either??? Solar flares again
> Did it open when you clicked it??


I get this message: "Invalid Attachment specified."

I have read about the Navaho creation story - in a popular mystery/detective book series. It is at least as plausible as the Hebrew/Christian/Islam story, and more entertaining.


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## hawk

Maybe this will work~


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## PetrB

Hilltroll72 said:


> And of course there is the jewsharp. Don't know about Israel, but it was big in the Appalachians back in the day, along with the 'mountain' zither. The banjo, BTW, is a relatively recent development. I think the standard operating procedure was 'frailing' for a long time.


Juice harp, actually, (homonyms and all that


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## PetrB

Hilltroll72 said:


> Does getting here before the Europeans did make the Amerinds 'indigenous'? Not being contentious, just want to get the terminology down.
> 
> [edit: BTW, that attachment didn't work.]


Indigenous peoples are the ones who were there first and for a very long time. The Europeans, anywhere else but in Europe, are johnny-come-lately. Think of them as transported / transplanted animal life.


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## PetrB

What about those two distinctly American-invented instruments?

Benjamin Franklin's Glass Armonica








and Robert Moog's Synthesizer








Then there is always Harry Partch...


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## kv466

Anyone mention the spoons, yet?


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## Ukko

PetrB said:


> Indigenous peoples are the ones who were there first and for a very long time. The Europeans, anywhere else but in Europe, are johnny-come-lately. Think of them as transported / transplanted animal life.


If you discard the 'there first' (_Hawk_'s people were probably not there first, nor were the Navaho in New Mexico), I'll buy your definition. No point in quibbling about what 'a very long time' signifies. My people settled in a part of interior Vermont where no Amerinds had lived in recoverable history, but got there less than 400 years ago; not indigenous then.


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## science

Hilltroll72 said:


> If you discard the 'there first' (_Hawk_'s people were probably not there first, nor were the Navaho in New Mexico), I'll buy your definition. No point in quibbling about what 'a very long time' signifies. My people settled in a part of interior Vermont where no Amerinds had lived in recoverable history, but got there less than 400 years ago; not indigenous then.


My people (the Celts) stole land by force from whoever lived in Britain and Europe before the Celts, probably enslaving and certainly raping many of them along the way; and then we (Romans) did so in Italy; and then we (Romans) did that to the Celts in Britain and the Germans in Germany; and then we (Germans) did that to whoever lived in northern Germany before the Angles and Saxons, and whoever lived in Scandinavia before the Scandinavians; and then we (Angles and Saxons) did that to the Roman-British in Britain; and then we (Vikings) did it to the Roman-British in Britain and to whoever lived in Normandy before we arrived; then we (Normans) did it to the English; and after 500 more years of doing it to the Irish, trying to do it to the French, doing it repeatedly to ourselves, we broke out and did it to the North Americans, and much of the rest of the world.

We English (Celtic-Roman-Anglo-Saxon-Viking-Normans) have a lot to be proud of, and that's not counting literature or capitalism or science....

(Actually, a fair bit of my ancestry is Huguenot, another bit is Dutch, there's some Welsh and German... it's better just to keep it as simple as possible.)


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## Ukko

/\ Hah. the 'my people' I referred to bore my family name. On the very limited data available from Europe, my ancestors were probably serfs in Flanders, who were fortunate enough to be given to William Rufus to populate a couple new towns in 'The Marches' (between England and Wales) as a buffer. Thus they became something more socially elevated than serfs under feudalism. My point, if I have one, is that my ancestors were way more often killees than killers, and without options either way.


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## hawk

No the Dine are not indigenous to NM~their history, as I understand it, point's to their Athabascan roots. Further they speak about a migratory journey across what we now refer to as Asia....
The Hopi on the other hand have always, according to *their* history, lived on the same land. Many Native peoples story (history) make reference to being created on this land. My own peoples history is no different...

I find your last statement interesting~Abenaki, Haudenosonee (sp?) were just some of the peoples who lived in the area now called Vermont. What evidence suggests their arrival only 400 years ago? Whose history are you citing?


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## Ukko

hawk said:


> No the Dine are not indigenous to NM~their history, as I understand it, point's to their Athabascan roots. Further they speak about a migratory journey across what we now refer to as Asia....
> The Hopi on the other hand have always, according to *their* history, lived on the same land. Many Native peoples story (history) make reference to being created on this land. My own peoples history is no different...
> 
> I find your last statement interesting~Abenaki, Haudenosonee (sp?) were just some of the peoples who lived in the area now called Vermont. What evidence suggests their arrival only 400 years ago? Whose history are you citing?


The less than 400 years ago reference is to _my_ ancestors. I specified _interior_ Vermont because what I have read indicates that no tribes lived there. only passed through it along the river valleys. Speculation is that it was regarded as a buffer zone between tribes. The Connecticut River Valley on the eastern side, and the Champlain valley on the western side, were the populated areas. I _think_ I have read that the Abenaki were/are Algonquins, so needed separation from the Mohawks (Iroquois). I haven't looked at the data for 40 years or so; my version could be hopelessly wrong. But there it is.

Regarding the Navaho, I haven't figured out how their migration jibes with several Creation landmarks within the present reservation. I am obviously missing several somethings there.


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## Sid James

Note that I meant this thread to include any national instruments, doesn't matter if they are indigineous/native or from settlers/colonisers. They all make up part of the history of USA, as they do places like Australia. A lot of these things are hybrids anyway. I read on the wikipedia page that the banjo came from Africa - and another member just posted here a Japanese type banjo - but this is thought of by many as the national instrument of USA. Esp. their types of banjos, and in the old days when it was played by many people there.

Re the *spoons*, that's a good one. Then there's the *washboard*. I think these types of home-made instruments where/are played in *skiffle bands*, which had a kind of revival in English speaking countries in the decades after 1945. It's a mix of folk, country and jazz, I think, but I don't know it greatly. Anybody know this style, _skiffle_?

Re things from the native peoples of the *Americas*, some Latin American composers incorporate these into classical, that's how I know them. Eg. Villa-Lobos, in his choros pieces used many native percussions, eg. a dried out *gourd* (like a pumpkin?) with the seeds rattling inside it. HERE is a* guiro gourd*, which is similar but scraped. It kind of sounds like many things, eg. rain. Then there's Ariel Ramirez's_ Misa Criolla_, which uses a kind of *small guitar with tortoiseshell back*. & then there's the *pan pipes*, which were played across the Americas.

& as for* Harry Partch*, he built instruments again after thousands of years of them not existing/being played. One was the Ancient Greek _kythera_, a bit like a harp, but his had more strings. I like his music, very modern but it has this ancient time worn feel, & his seeking out long dead sounds is a reason for that. So what he did kind of fits into this thread, maybe the moog synthesiser as well, I want to include modern instruments as well.


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## Ukko

hawk said:


> No the Dine are not indigenous to NM~their history, as I understand it, point's to their Athabascan roots. Further they speak about a migratory journey across what we now refer to as Asia....
> The Hopi on the other hand have always, according to *their* history, lived on the same land. Many Native peoples story (history) make reference to being created on this land. My own peoples history is no different...


I have read (somewhere) that the Comanche also were wanderers (being related to the Shoshone), who left the Northwest and ended up in West Texas. In the eastern US, the Shawnee drifted from (Louisiana?) up along the Appalachians to settle in western Pennsylvania/Ohio, where the Europeans found them.

Do we white-eyes consider the Hopi to be remnants of the Anasazi?

_sid_,_ Hawk_ and I have managed to create a byway from your thread, but at least it seems to a minor tributary.


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## Sid James

Hilltroll72 said:


> ...
> _sid_,_ Hawk_ and I have managed to create a byway from your thread, but at least it seems to a minor tributary.


It's fine in a way, some interesting aspects of history unknown to me, as long as it's kept civil & not nasty, (on topic in some way?), I'm not too fussed.


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## moody

Hungary the Cymbalon. Italy the Mandolin. Greece the Bouzouki.
Also, I think the accordian is probably more popular in Germany than in France.


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## Ukko

Sid James said:


> It's fine in a way, some interesting aspects of history unknown to me, as long as it's kept civil & not nasty, (on topic in some way?), I'm not too fussed.


_Hawk_ offered a flute. I'm the drifty party. I wonder if the willow whistle counts as regional rural symbol. Or the penny whistle in the UK.


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## Ukko

Has anyone mentioned the psalter? Maybe it's use was too wide-spread.

Edit: I'm guessing that the autoharp is too regional to be considered. If you've heard Carter Family recordings, you have probably heard the instrument.


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## ksargent

Well - when you said "National instruments" this is what came to mind:


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## asiago12

National instruments of Italy..

Piano forte










Violino










Violoncello


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## Strange Magic

The _sitar_ of India, and also the _been_ (snake-charmer's instrument). Love the sound of both, especially the sinuous, nasal sound of the _been._

Have bagpipes been [sic] mentioned? Many cultures have their variants.


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## philoctetes

As I recall Partch had a huge bottle collection from drinking out in the Mojave and created microtuned instruments from them.

Lately I've been listening to the sarod almost every day. It rivals the sitar for popularity outside the US. Where the sitar had Ravi Shankar as advocate, the sarod had Ali Akbar Khan. In construction and tone it is like the oud or the lute.

From some liner notes:
"It was an old practice in India to group most stringed instruments under the name of veena, the mother of all Indian instruments. The sarod is supposed to have existed as one of the fifteen or more varieties of the veena. However it can be said with certainty that the contemporary sarod was modeled on the 16trh century rabab, a shorter but like-sounding instrument in Afghanistan."


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## philoctetes

Wheezy drone-ish instruments are one of my weak spots. So I submit the harmonium and musette to accompany the pipes...

I'm not sure I'd want to be a tambur player... tampur? timbre? whatever the Indian stringed drones are called... seems there are many varieties... but I would not want the music to be without them


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## Tikoo Tuba

The American wash tub bass ! 

metal wash tub + broom handle + clothes line

I've made several , and using an old cello string makes one elegant .


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