# Hear rare double reeds



## Enthalpy

Hello nice people!

I propose that we put in this thread *links, samples and pictures of unusual double reed instruments*.

A separate thread exists for unusual single reeds, others are planned for unusual flutes, brass, strings, percussions.

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To start the thread, here is the *French bassoon* compared with the German system. The French system has a narrower bore, its tone holes are narrower at the bass joint and bell, its fingerings differ.

French system
Wnz1t7rYKhk (Buffet-Crampon), Marie Boichard (wow, wish more!)
qWA_VZ0q-ug and more (Buffet-Crampon), Jean-Michel Alhaits

German system
Ziry7HpmbXw - ezV5uf_X3gI (luthier unknown), Bálint Mohai
kbDcFWTPfjk - HOkOYSekLBE - OJtZ0aF71N8 (Moosman), KyuSun Pyo
xhh5d1l-wYs - cH0dWWIyK1k at 0:18 - h4uB0Q3Z7lw (Heckel 1937), Judith LeClair
WVQk5qDeEFM - XRXys1vQzvI at 0:38 (Püchner), Sophie Dervaux and Fábio Cury


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## Enthalpy

The *sarrusophone* is a double reed woodwind with conical metal body developed very shortly after the saxophone and sharing its initial fingerings. It lived shortly (enough for museums to have a few pieces) except for the C contrabass which was preferred in France to the contrabassoon for being louder.
Wikipedia

A few (well over 100) copies still exist, and at least Benedikt Eppelsheim and Orsi produce them on request. Few musicians play it, and with no tradition for reeds, no professors, the results vary.

Beware the "baritone sarrusophone" on Uriel Rodriguez' website is a baritone saxophones. The other "sarrusophones" there are probably a scam too.

Here's a real sarrusophone, better played than usual, could be an Eb contrabass
DZFf_j80tX8


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## Enthalpy

Enthalpy said:


> Marie Boichard (wow, wish more!)


She did it!  Here are *more records of French bassoons:*
MXHwvFqc3Tc (Buffet-Crampon), Marie Boichard
j3DtZkUToxY (Yannick Ducasse, a rarity), Louise Lapierre
20th century is too recent for some listeners, but the second movement of Jolivet's concert is easier, jump here:
j3DtZkUToxY at 07:22


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## Enthalpy

*Jazz on a bassoon* is uncommon, not least because bassoonist are scarce.

These axamples on Youtube from Alexandre Silverio, here in usual small formations
Invitation - Chorinho pra ele - Alone together​that's a duet with himself
Vou vivendo​and here the Camaleon bassoons
My favourite things - Take five - In a sentimental mood​they are the bassoonists of São Paulo state symphonic orchestra.

An other group plays jazz on bassoons:
NNcmn5ovkJE​Kudos to the arranger! And nicely played too.


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## Enthalpy

The contrabassoon is the usual contrabass in the woodwind section of a symphonic orchestra. Alas, it's not very loud, and most often a single one shall make the contrabass line for all woodwinds. The contrabass sarrusophone replaced it in the 19th century, mostly in France, but has disappeared. Other attempts were less known. And the excellent contrabass clarinet has a completely different sound.

But presently, a loud alternative exists: the *contraforte*, by Guntram Wolf and Benedikt Eppelsheim
guntramwolf.de and eppelsheim.com​whose wider bore and wider tone holes give the expected louder sound. Fingerings differ, I ignore by how much. It can use a contrabassoon reed or a special one. The range is reportedly wide, but I trust the contrabassoon too for that.

Here's a *direct sound comparison*. Lewis Lipnick plays both professionally and demonstrates Erwin Schulhoff's _Bass Nightingale_ on both
voices.washingtonpost.com​More samples are available on Youtube (ymmv) and at Eppelsheim's linked page. The significant timbre difference is what you would expect. I feel replacing one by the other in a solo would need approval by the composer, but for the contrabass line among the woodwinds, you won't hear the timbre difference, and at least the contraforte is audible.


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## Enthalpy

It's not a bassoon, but an ancestor: the *rackett, ranckett or cervelas* had a double reed on a conical bore, and the long bass tube was folded many times to fit in a single compact cylinder.
wikipedia​
The original instruments belong in museums. Those played today are often very approximate copies whose users had no professor and usually spent little time learning the instrument, just to play a few notes of ancient music re-enactment.

Though, this record has a decent sound, proving that the instrument isn't to blame:
JIy86HTy9oc​The musician hopes to improve the sound after practising.


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## Enthalpy

The *oboe da caccia*, a curved low oboe, was common at Bach's time, it had completely disappeared in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century and was resurrected as a historical reconstitution half a century ago.

Explanations and some sounds
cPvpyI-bmEM​
Without waffle, here's the *sonata for oboe da caccia and harpsichord*
9s6qlnhueNE - sqTrDYTrRN0 - XvMXlAnhVRk - Bwzn9TB-jWg​The nice sound, very different from the English horn, not available presently in a symphonic orchestra, would be a useful addition. It must be possible to modernize its production and fingerings.


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## Enthalpy

The *piccolo oboe* is also called oboe musette. Marigaux doesn't mention it any more in its production, so I've seen it only at
loree-paris.com and patricola.com​and while the Lorée model transposes in F a fourth higher and starts at written Bb, the Patricola transposes in Eb a minor third higher and starts at written B, how convenient.

Sound
H1XlT9tU7nQ at t=53 - 4ZAiqt_TZ38 - fzta9zlUe-M​
It should logically be worse than a soprano oboe for the necessary pressure, the lip pain, the intonation.


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## Enthalpy

The *oboe d'amore* sounds three semitones lower than the usual soprano, transcribing in A. It was more common at the time of Bach or Telemann, but for instance Ravel wrote for its distinctive sound, and many luthiers propose it. The bulb smaller than at the English horn gives it a less heavy resonance, and depending on the musician, the sound may become a bit grainy, but typically less so than on the English horn, or not at all.

0UM0IJ9H360 at 1:05
wruqhsb_12M at 0:38 and -Ts3N9BndA4 at 0:17
also tDMWNfYuWrs at 1:36
1P9iEpOhCnQ at t=15​
Elegant, isn't it?


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## Enthalpy

The *baritone oboe*, also called bass oboe, is a tenor, playing an octave lower the oboe's written range - I suppose it could extend more the upper register.
wikipedia​While the instrument is rather common in museums, and several luthiers announce it in their catalogue, recent instruments and records are rare. One example here
oboequartet.com​search for _CD 1_, click on _Probehören_, listen the solo from 0:05 to 0:13. Miriam Moser plays a tenor with bulb bell developed by Fossati and Rainer Egger.
One other example
4rU_RiT-OXw at t=1:49 to 1:54 and t=2:33 to 2:46​and elsewhere. Andreas Mendel plays a tenor with flare bell from Mönnig.
One more record:
jwu8WS5MAvA at 5:25 to 6:28​
The *Heckelphone* has some changes at the bulb bell and a broader bore, which here too, makes the sound deeper but not softer.
wikipedia​one record has a nicer sound, by Katrin Stüble
Gxj0OLftfFk at 0:30-1:05, 2:29-3:02, 4:34-4:51 and 5:24-6:00​I wish to hear Katrin Stüble on a baritone oboe.

The most recent *Lupophone*, by Guntram Wolf and Benedikt Eppelsheim
guntramwolf.de​has allegedly a narrower bore, nearer to the baritone oboe, but its tone holes look wide
wikipedia (wouldn't a final "e" fit naturally in English?)​and it reaches the low F written by R. Strauss in his Alpensinfonie, by mistake I suppose. Big bulb bell. Record:
-6gVdShhltg​


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## Enthalpy

Here are two records of *oboes made of Pmma* (polymethyl methacrylate, like Plexiglas, Altuglas and more)
wikipedia​by a known luthier
NrJy8tNlBuQ at 1:26​check especially the low notes at 1:55. That same musician played other instruments on the same day with the same reed, the trials are available on the same site - so only the instrument is to blame.

Other musician
8AJnQk3ECYE at 0:38​The low notes are again the worst.

Two different musicians obtain the same sound, which is also how you expect a plastic to sound. It strikes even through computer loudspeakers. In short: inadequate material.

Now I believe more easily that the material makes the difference between grenadilla and cocobolo oboes. And while an oboe must be more sensitive to the walls' behaviour, I believe more easily the clarinettists' comments against plastic.

One more comparison between grenadilla and Pmma oboes, both from Marigaux and played by the same musician, in the same bad room full of echo:
rBEysvPiYPY at 0:34 and 1:38​and I hear exactly the same difference as with the other oboist: Pmma sounds like a piece of plastic, especially at the low notes. Simply the wrong material for a woodwind.

It's even surprising that the difference is so strong and repeatable. Possibly the oboe depends more on the walls materials than other woodwinds.


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## Enthalpy

The *Wiener oboe* is still played, but essentially at the Wiener Philharmoniker, so it is uncommon
wikipedia​its fingerings differ from the usual conservatoire oboe and its bore is wider, producing a different sound. Hear it there
JG86-Tm1ddY at 00:56​and hear the *Wiener cor anglais* there
v=JG86-Tm1ddY at 01:25​
The sound of the usual *conservatoire oboe* varies a lot among the instruments and oboists, nice example there
6m5zE9Eue9A​softer because it's narrower. An oboe is not a cornet.

More sounds by the *conservatoire oboe family* there
yQ0ziInWbF4​jump there to the oboe
1:58 - 5:46 - 6:33 - 7:22​oboe d'amore
4:06​and cor anglais
5:02​If you wonder, the language is Portuguese. From Portugal, with a rhythm very different from Brazil.


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## Enthalpy

More nice *records of the baritone oboe* have appeared on Youtube:
hwD0Dh2DaPc - MDKs4TRSJio - eqFpB9QIRSs
D09HnL7UYxc - hxSiyk3X4TU - zRcBDx3MOys​


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## Enthalpy

An other record of a *rackett or cervelas*, only 12s long but decent sound:
4I7IcNZHQSY at126s


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## Enthalpy

The *Wiener oboe* records linked on Jul 9, 2020 vanished from Youtube, but here is a fresh one:
jhwm49ItsCc at 0:00 to 0:22 - 4:04 to 4:39
Three records here, and three more pieces there
mdw.ac.at - hz4BqrtSxk4
The sound differs indeed from the Conservatoire system. Broader bore, different fingerings.


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## Enthalpy

Records of Bernard Andrès' magnificent _Chants d'arrière-saison_ on harp plus *French or German system bassoon*.

Luc Loubry on a *Buffet-Crampon French* bassoon
1:Andantino - 2:Allegro - 3:Larghetto - 4:Adagio - 5:Andante - 6:Allegretto - 7:Moderato
Luc Loubry and Rachel Talitman recorded several CD, they are present on Youtube too, enjoy!

Judith Leclair on an old *Heckel German* bassoon
1:Andantino - 2:Allegro - 3:Larghetto - 4:Adagio - 5:Andante - 6:Allegretto - 7:Moderato
Gretchen van Hosen and Judith Leclair recorded at least one CD and have pieces on Youtube, don't miss them!

Dana Brink on a (I believe Fox) *German* bassoon, more velvety than Heckel, wonderful low register
1234567:Chants d'arrière-saison
Anna Elsworth and Dana Brink too have more records, just browse.

I wish to hear the _Chants d'arrière-saison_ on a Püchner German bassoon.
Hey Sophie Dervaux, Vahan Khourdoyan and the others!


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