# Beethoven's Missa Solemnis Questions



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Hi, I am new here, first post:

I recently bought a copy of the Missa Solemnis and absolutely love it. Does anyone know if there is a CD available of the Missa Solemnis that is sung in English? I don't have a problem with the Latin, but it would be nice to also have it in English.

Also, I believe this work was based on the Catholic Church service, but it suprisingly look very much like it could have been taken right out of the Lutheran Church, even as recent at the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal of the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. 

A little background about me: I grew up on Rock music and in my 20s took to listening to Classical for a number of years, then was away from it until just a few months ago, when it suddenly took my by storm and I can't get enough of it. Oh, and I don't listen to Rock much at all, mainly Blues when I am driving, but classical the rest of the time.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I share your love for the Missa Solemnis; it's one of the most "human" statements of the Mass. 

I'm not aware of any English versions. I would encourage you instead, if possible, to become familiar with the Latin text of the ordinary of the Mass (it's not really that hard to do), because then you'll automatically know the words to a whole world of Mass settings, from 300 to the present. And there are some tremendous pieces in this genre just waiting for you.


----------



## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

The ordinary of the mass:
http://www.sspx.co.uk/mass/text/index.htm

The typical mass sections rendered in music are _Kyrie _(God have mercy), _Gloria _(Glory to God...), _Credo _(The byzantine Creed), _Sanctus _(Holy, Holy Holy), _Benedictus _(Blessed is he...) and _Agnus Dei _(Lamb of God...).

I am not familiar with the Luteran mass, but these six elements are the essenial prayers held within the Catholic rite, and well-known and recited every Sunday. The _Requiem _masses add other prayers... The latin text adds a dimension to the texts (I probably am "Old School" in that regard) that the English prayers don't bring. I agree with Manxfeeder on that point: get familiar with the words, and try out other masses... Here's a site with a few you can sample:

http://www.stagnes.net/music-recordings.html


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks. That is a splendid idea. There is not that much Latin to become familiar with. I will do that. I have never heard of Lutherans calling it a mass, as that term is more specifically reserved for the Roman Catholic celebration of the Eucharist, of which the Lutherans differ significantly on. Anyway, it was the words that brought me to in and I decided that if I was going to buy a copy of a mass, I wanted Beethoven's even though in some ways having it by a composer who was clearly a Christian would be nice, it's just that I do love the works of Beethoven. I will have to explore the other masses. Thanks!


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

itywltmt said:


> The ordinary of the mass:
> http://www.sspx.co.uk/mass/text/index.htm


Thanks, that is very detailed and interesting. For comparison here is a good outline of the Lutheran service:
http://www.goodshepherd.nb.ca/liturgy/


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

TallPaul said:


> TI wanted Beethoven's even though in some ways having it by a composer who was clearly a Christian would be nice, it's just that I do love the works of Beethoven. I will have to explore the other masses. Thanks!


I know what you mean. Beethoven wasn't a dogmatic Catholic. However, personally, I hear in much of his music a Christian mindset. One writer noted that the Missa Solemnis reflects what was known as fideism, which stressed the personal and subjective character of religious practice as opposed to mechanical observance or scholasticism.

However, if you want to compare it to a clear Christian, your next step will be Bach's B Minor Mass. It's full of symbolism and word painting.


----------



## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

As I understand it the Lutheran Mass as used in the time of Bach and probably Beethoven was usually sung in Latin and I believe was identical with the Roman Catholic Mass with the exception of the Credo (I think). I am not certain of the religious mindset of Beethoven or even if he had one. Brahms for example was baptized in the Lutheran church but did not consider himself a believer. Perhaps there is someone who can supply more information.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

It makes sense that the Lutheran service would be very similar to the Catholic. Luther's intent was not to change the church, but only to get rid of what he saw as abuses. In contrast, the Reformed went hog wild and threw out just about anything in the service that reminded them of the Catholic Church including destroying images and organs.

I belive Bach was a Lutheran, and he definintely seems like the one I should look into for my next Mass recording. I am listening to clips online of Bach's Mass in B Minor. It is wonderful and very different from Beethoven's mass. I may have to get a copy of this one. Thanks.


----------



## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Manxfeeder is right: get comfortable with the text in Latin and you will find doors open to a vast range of music.
If you recoil against the hellfire and incense of dyed-in-the-wool Catholics like Berlioz or Messiaen (though the latter never wrote any sort of mass), how about this for something which, if I understand the Lutheral ethos correctly, you might find rewarding:


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> If you recoil against the hellfire and incense of dyed-in-the-wool Catholics like Berlioz or Messiaen (though the latter never wrote any sort of mass), how about this for something which, if I understand the Lutheral ethos correctly, you might find rewarding:


This is lovely. I'm glad you put up the full-choir version; the smaller version doesn't have quite the same ethereal ambience.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Berliner Messe - Kyrie is very well done, but it is not fitting my needs at this time. Reason is that, well, I would have to confess I am not very refined as a classical listener. Vocal was not my first love and choir is something that largely I have avoided. I do like the violin part very much. I had attended a number of operas in the 1980s and my favorite vocal work was the 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th--that essentially was my first introduction to vocal in classical music. Beause of the opera experience, I recently picked up a copy of Boris Godunov and like it very much, and now have Fidelio on order. I am going to Dearborn Music tomorrow and will scour the used CDs for the Bach Mass and other works. My bias towards Lutheran is purely the Scriptural basis, not the formal procedures, in fact the Lutheran Mission I attend uses a guitar for the singing parts of the service and that suits me fine. And thanks for posting the video clip.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Now I have amassed a collection of five Missa Solemnis: Ormandy, Giulini, Rilling (2005), Gardiner, and Neviges (2001). Ormandy was my first and I still like it better than all the rest.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Jeremy: Giving it another listen, the Berliner Messe does sound very nice, quite different from Beethoven's mass, perhaps more towards Gregorian chant. I am much more into vocal music now than I was last year when I first responded.


----------

