# You need a subwoofer



## JEC (Mar 11, 2015)

Hi folks,

I understand if you have sensitive neighbors or budgetary concerns, but by all means, GET A SUBWOOFER to listen to classical music. It provides the deep, low end that you feel in your body, much like in the concert hall. If you are listening on small speakers, you are missing a great deal of the music. I added a 10" subwoofer to my 8" speakers and fell in love with my music collection all over again. Everything (orchestral, chamber) is greatly enhanced. One note: popular music is mixed with lots of bass, so your subwoofer volume should be higher for classical music. After you acquire your subwoofer, may I recommend Respighi's "Church Windows" to break it in. The low frequencies may even inspire you to dance. My favorite disc for this is Serebrier's Verdi ballet music on Naxos. Happy listening!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Just get some decent speakers and you don't need a sub


----------



## JEC (Mar 11, 2015)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Just get some decent speakers and you don't need a sub


If that was true, movie theaters wouldn't have subs.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

JEC said:


> If that was true, movie theaters wouldn't have subs.


really I don't think so, a theatre is a very different environment to a residential dwelling and hopefully has a more refined sound than a theatre. I use AR93's and Wharfedale Dovedale SP's at home - no need for subs (used to use subs with less bassy speakers but have no need now)


----------



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I enjoy a nice bass sound as much as the next person, but when it comes to classical, I place a high priority on balance. If the composer wanted me to pay attention to the lower voices, it will come through in the recording if my setup is of good quality and the performer(s) are reproducing the work faithfully. Blaring the bass makes me feel like I'm obscuring the composer's intentions where balance is concerned; highs and mids are usually where the important material is anyway. (never hurts to have just a bit of a thump in the bass, though)
But that is just my own puritan pontificating. If lots of bass does it for you, then you do you, my friend!


----------



## JEC (Mar 11, 2015)

Understood. Just trying to share my excitement. Not trying to force anyone into a sub. Might be a good way to get the kids into classical music, though


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Yeah, good I idea I might just have to try Ionisation with a sub


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Just get some decent speakers and you don't need a sub


Absolutely Eddie, the last thing I want is a sub. For classical the mid range is the most important, I am running old KEF 104 reference speakers had em since the early 90s a good tweeter and a double acting coupled bass.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I love the physical sensation of the sound - but be careful. I played around with loud music too much as a young person and I'm paying for it now.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have one, which I have turned very low to subtly enhance the low end, but I don't overdo it. I remember going to a BSO Young People's concert many years ago in Symphony Hall. They played the Romeo and Juliet Suite that begins with the Knight's Dance, and in a resonant hall the sawing basses and tubas make it an almost visceral experience. But I was 12!


----------



## stejo (Dec 8, 2016)

I completely agree, a sub is necessary to get the right "concert feeling" , I use it also sometimes when playing vinyl but 
it can be a bit noisy on some records.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

In most concert halls with most orchestras and most orchestral music, the bass isn't that strong. There were composers who always wanted a deep, powerful bass, like Brahms. But others, like Dvorak and Tchaikovsky, wanted a lighter, brighter sound and rarely used things like the contrabassoon which Brahms loved. The power of a sub pumps the bass up abnormally high. With music for organ though it's essential as far as I'm concerned. The Bach, Vierne, Widor should rattle the windows. And with Mahler it helps, too. It comes down to personal taste: do you want a realistic representation (as far as possible) or a false one with pumped up bass like a rock concert or something? And it depends on your neighbors.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have a sub on my cheapo Logitek computer speaker system, but for a room stereo I would not be inclined to get a sub. Good speakers will pump out all the bass you need. I used to run a 65 watt per channel Yahama amp through New Advent speakers in my bedroom at my mother's house (1980s) and I could get Bach pipe organ really booming in that 12x11 room!


----------



## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

science said:


> I love the physical sensation of the sound - but be careful. I played around with loud music too much as a young person and I'm paying for it now
> 
> .


I know what you mean. 
Funny videos to stave off the misery


----------



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Whether or not you need a subwoofer depends on a variety of factors including your room, your speakers, your amp, how loud you listen, and what you listen to. The bigger the room, the smaller your speakers, the weaker your amp, the louder you listen, and the more you listen to music that actually has a lot of bass, the more you need a subwoofer. That said, in most cases I'd be inclined to argue for multiple small subwoofers rather than one big one, as multiple subs help even out room modes/nodes; but for that you also need a quality AVR to EQ and time everything, so the cost starts going up.

Thing is, most classical music doesn't have deep bass. There are exceptions like a some organ music (really depends on the organ being recorded), and every now and then you'll come across a recording that has a huge drum/timpani in the 20-40Hz range, but these exceptions are pretty rare. I actually have a collection of organ CDs primarily to show off my subwoofer. Some of them contain a lot of great music and fabulous playing to boot. Two that come to mind immediately are: Saint Saens Organ Symphony with Jean Guillou and Felix Hell Organ Sensation


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Just get some decent speakers and you don't need a sub


Typically, I agree, but used wisely and for some, a good subwoofer can fit the bill.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

JEC said:


> If that was true, movie theaters wouldn't have subs.


The volume level in movie theaters is insane, and so are the road nuts whose pounding car woofers call attention to their ego driven inconsiderateness.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Dan Ante said:


> I know what you mean.
> Funny videos to stave off the misery


In my case, I struggle to hear what a person is saying to me if the background is noisy. It's comical how little background noise is needed to prevent me from understanding what anyone is saying.


----------



## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

IMO, a sub (or subs) is absolutely necessary for most hi-fi systems. True full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) are rare. If you got 'em then more power to you but most speakers, including floorstanders begin rolling off at around 80-50 Hz and to accurately reproduce an orchestral bass drum you really need to get down to 25Hz or lower. And I mean a high quality sub here, not the kind of sub used for theater effects. Accurate bass, well integrated with your main speakers should never sound boomy or draw attention to itself.


----------



## GrotesqueFugue (May 18, 2018)

Subs can be quite counterproductive in the average domestic listening environment unless you put in a lot of work. I'd love a true full-range system but don't have the space/cash to make it viable. 
Three things to consider ref. the comparison to theatres and home cinemas:
1) A large part of the purpose of subbass frequencies in films is big booming explody sound effects, not nice controlled low-end reproduction of orchestral parts. In this respect it doesn't matter too much if the sound is a bit flabby and the time-domain reproduction isn't particularly crisp as it's just a car blowing up or similar;
2) Good cinemas use systems like Dolby Atmos with a well-defined specifications for audio reproduction (even if not always perfectly implemented, and all to frequently turned up unpleasantly loud  ) ;
3) Space is not a significant constraint, and this is perhaps the biggest difference compared to all but the best domestic listening environments.

The main challenge with lower frequencies in smaller spaces is that you're likely to be generating audio with wavelengths close to the dimensions of the room.
Consider a typical room of say 20'x15' with a 10' high ceiling. In such a setting, you'll experience so-called room modes at about 28Hz and 37.5Hz (roughly A0 and D1). This can be mitigated to an a degree by using various types of acoustic treatment and that's usually the approach taken in recording studios, but this is costly and complex to do well. Without this, any sub or large speaker putting out a significant amount of acoustic energy in this frequency range is going to end up causing all sorts of constructive and destructive interference, so you'll potentially find that in some parts of the room the bass sounds very uneven, with areas having noticeably louder sound at certain frequencies and others having far less - broadly, by extending the frequency range you're probably going to have an overall poorer quality of sound.

IMO for a domestic environment there isn't much to be gained from speakers that cover a range beyond about 50Hz-20kHz, unless you're lucky enough to have a room that can truly take more.

Obviously it's all about personal preference, and classical isn't like a lot of modern music where there is an almost intentional bias towards bass so the effect will be mitigated to some extent, but I'd rather have clean reproduction and lose a bit at the bottom end.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

JEC said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> ... by all means, GET A SUBWOOFER to listen to classical music.


Of course, classical music is more than big symphonic music featuring tubas and double basses, or organ chorales! In fact, I enjoy solo guitar music, and that music features sound strongly in the mid-range. A good pair of mid-range speakers is all that is needed to fully enjoy the sound of a classical guitar. In fact, sub-woofers, if connected (especially) to low quality equipment, may simply foul up the sound with low level noise. A quality system will playback just the material in the recording, and if that recording has no lower frequency matter, a sub is quite unnecessary.

But of course I have a sub wired into my tubed amplifier to enhance my rather good midrange speakers (from Triangle). And it works well when I _do_ play those huge tuba and double bass heavy symphonies, or organ chorales! Still, if the bass is overcompensated (as it is in many of the kids' automobiles I hear thumping down the road in front of my home) then one is doing only a disservice to the music as recorded. And with classical music, one should probably seek as true a sound (true to what was recorded) as possible. Big bass may miss the point completely!

All things in proper perspective.


----------



## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I also think a sub greatly enhances the listening experience. Even some big speakers, like my Cerwin Vega D15EE drop off very fast under 60 hz.

My Grundig Box 5600 (my daily speakers) drop off at 80 hz. With my 12" DIY sub and a Mini DSP as a crossover, it sounds sublime to my ears


----------



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

GrotesqueFugue said:


> The main challenge with lower frequencies in smaller spaces is that you're likely to be generating audio with wavelengths close to the dimensions of the room.
> Consider a typical room of say 20'x15' with a 10' high ceiling. In such a setting, you'll experience so-called room modes at about 28Hz and 37.5Hz (roughly A0 and D1). This can be mitigated to an a degree by using various types of acoustic treatment and that's usually the approach taken in recording studios, but this is costly and complex to do well. Without this, any sub or large speaker putting out a significant amount of acoustic energy in this frequency range is going to end up causing all sorts of constructive and destructive interference, so you'll potentially find that in some parts of the room the bass sounds very uneven, with areas having noticeably louder sound at certain frequencies and others having far less - broadly, by extending the frequency range you're probably going to have an overall poorer quality of sound.
> 
> IMO for a domestic environment there isn't much to be gained from speakers that cover a range beyond about 50Hz-20kHz, unless you're lucky enough to have a room that can truly take more.


While I agree with what you say about the challenge of lower frequencies and the differences between cinemas and home theaters, I can't agree with your conclusion that no sub-bass is better than bad sub-bass. In fact, most all modern AVRs come with bass management that help to alleviate the problem of room modes/nodes, and there are plenty of other options for further alleviating these issues such as room treatment, multiple subs, or just careful consideration of placement. Audio science has confirmed that deep, extended bass is pretty crucial to the enjoyment of sound systems: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97zTRsdcJTfY2U4ODhiZmUtNDEyNC00ZDcyLWEzZTAtMGJiODQ1ZTUxMGQ4/view?ddrp=1&hl=en#


----------



## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

mbhaub said:


> In most concert halls with most orchestras and most orchestral music, the bass isn't that strong.


+1



mbhaub said:


> [...] The power of a sub pumps the bass up abnormally high.


+1



mbhaub said:


> With music for organ though it's essential as far as I'm concerned. The Bach, Vierne, Widor should rattle the windows.


I'm not sure about Bach (and many other baroque organ composers, either).
I have attended loads of (Bach/baroque) organ concerts and a good balance between the voices/parts is a necessity IMO. And most of Bach's works (even the grand free works for plenum) fare very well on organs with 'only' 16ft pedals.



mbhaub said:


> It comes down to personal taste: do you want a realistic representation (as far as possible) or a false one with pumped up bass like a rock concert or something? And it depends on your neighbors.


+1 (especially i.c. the neighbours )


----------



## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I have to disagree with there not being a lot of bass in a live performance.

I have only been to one live Symphonie; it was at Die Glocke in Bremen, Germany. They played the Overture to Coriolan from Beethoven and his 5th Symphonie.

I was very surprised at how prominent the bass was. Prior to that, I thought maybe I had too much bass in my system (for the audiophile purists  ). It turns out I have it dialed in pretty good


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

Marc said:


> +1
> I'm not sure about Bach (and many other baroque organ composers, either).
> I have attended loads of (Bach/baroque) organ concerts and a good balance between the voices/parts is a necessity IMO. And most of Bach's works (even the grand free works for plenum) fare very well on organs with 'only' 16ft pedals.


Yes, I agree with that.

A good subwoofer is rather expensive, and ones money are better spent by using them for well balanced speakers, which do not "need" assistance from a subwoofer.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

premont said:


> Yes, I agree with that.
> 
> A good subwoofer is rather expensive, and ones money are better spent by using them for well balanced speakers, which do not "need" assistance from a subwoofer.


This is really a myth. Any speakers with big enough woofers to cover sub-frequencies are going to be large and expensive anyway, and the problem with using speakers for subs is that you're stuck with them in that location, which will rarely be the ideal location for good bass. You'd be better off buying small bookshelf speakers and then several smaller subs that you can place in the ideal locations. The only problem then would be getting them to work together, but most modern AVRs make that relatively easy.


----------



## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Judas Priest Fan said:


> I have to disagree with there not being a lot of bass in a live performance.
> 
> I have only been to one live Symphonie; it was at Die Glocke in Bremen, Germany. They played the Overture to Coriolan from Beethoven and his 5th Symphonie.
> 
> I was very surprised at how prominent the bass was. Prior to that, I thought maybe I had too much bass in my system (for the audiophile purists  ). It turns out I have it dialed in pretty good


Funny to read this.
I have been to hundreds of concerts (including quite a few with symphony orchestras) in various concert halls and I never experienced a prominent bass when the full orchestra was expected to play. I guess that your experience could be caused by either the conductor's choice (and mistake?) of balance (letting the bass sections play louder or opting for an orchestral strength/partition that benefits the bass sections) or by the hall's acoustics. But since Die Glocke is known for its splendid acoustics, I think that the last possibility is out of the question.


----------



## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Andolink said:


> IMO, a sub (or subs) is absolutely necessary for most hi-fi systems. True full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) are rare. If you got 'em then more power to you but most speakers, including floorstanders begin rolling off at around 80-50 Hz and to accurately reproduce an orchestral bass drum you really need to get down to 25Hz or lower. And I mean a high quality sub here, not the kind of sub used for theater effects. Accurate bass, well integrated with your main speakers should never sound boomy or draw attention to itself.





Judas Priest Fan said:


> I also think a sub greatly enhances the listening experience. Even some big speakers, like my Cerwin Vega D15EE drop off very fast under 60 hz.
> 
> My Grundig Box 5600 (my daily speakers) drop off at 80 hz. With my 12" DIY sub and a Mini DSP as a crossover, it sounds sublime to my ears


I think both of these posts are on target.

The object of a sub woofer is to give you the full 20-20KHz experience. A subwoofer, specifically a powered subwoofer, is using a dedicated amp and driver for just the low end. 2 and 3 way speaker systems can not compete at being able to reproduce these low end sounds.....at least not at my budget. And as stated by Andolink, the subwoofer should not draw attention to itself. With room treatment and/or room correction software, the sub can be dialed in so as not to be even noticed....except for the excellent low end sound.

My main speakers are Paradigm Prestige 75F's along with a Paradigm subwoofer. The system has been set up using Anthem's ARC software, and I must say it works. The bass is dialed in. What I mean is that I am hearing the recording as intended. If there is a lot of bass I can her it all. Not over done, but what was intended by the recording engineer. When listening to music, you can not tell there is a sub in the room. All sound appears to come from the 2 main speakers. When I first set it up (and it is close to one of the mains) I could not even tell it was working until I took off the speaker grill and saw the driver moving.
Having the sub does nothing for listening to recordings which have no low frequencies. But when listening to a choral work with organ accompaniment, double basses playing loud, or a bass drum the low end is staggering. Again, not over done, but what was intended.

For most of us who can not afford to pay huge sums of money for main speakers capable of producing accurately 20-20kHz sound and the high power required to drive them, a sub is an excellent addition to a fine set of stereo speakers. Why not hear what was originally recorded?


----------



## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I guess I won´t know if it´s always that way until I go to another concert at Die Glocke.

It´s not that easy to find something that I really like, played on a weekend at the same time when I have to money to pay for it


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

True full range speakers do not need a sub, as long as the speaker is not compromising some other aspects of reproduction in order to get the low bass and the ability to pressurise the room. But these types of speakers are very expensive. 

There also seems to be added ambient information in the extreme lows. The lower bass frequencies on some recordings contain ambient information that gives spatial cues that let you perceive the size and volume of the recording venue. This is especially true with classical, orchestral recordings.

A few months ago, I replaced my subs, and during the time I was without subs, I noticed the width and depth of my perceived soundstage, collapsed noticeably. With the subs, it extended about 4-6 feet (1-2 meters) beyond the outer edge of my speakers. Without the subs, it ended at the outer edge of my speakers. It was as if I moved 10 rows further back in the concert hall. I was not expecting this.

So, even if you feel you don't need any lower frequencies, you are probably missing soundstage and imaging information.


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Gordontrek said:


> I enjoy a nice bass sound as much as the next person, but when it comes to classical, I place a high priority on balance. If the composer wanted me to pay attention to the lower voices, it will come through in the recording if my setup is of good quality and the performer(s) are reproducing the work faithfully. Blaring the bass makes me feel like I'm obscuring the composer's intentions where balance is concerned; highs and mids are usually where the important material is anyway. (never hurts to have just a bit of a thump in the bass, though)
> But that is just my own puritan pontificating. If lots of bass does it for you, then you do you, my friend!


You seem to be implying that by adding subs, you are adding excessive bass.

This is absolutely not true. Unless of course one chooses to crank up the sub louder than the main speakers.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Subwoofer properly placed playing the_ Verdi Requiem_:










Two tweeters and a mid-range:


----------



## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

Joe B said:


> I think both of these posts are on target.
> 
> The object of a sub woofer is to give you the full 20-20KHz experience. A subwoofer, specifically a powered subwoofer, is using a dedicated amp and driver for just the low end. 2 and 3 way speaker systems can not compete at being able to reproduce these low end sounds.....at least not at my budget. And as stated by Andolink, the subwoofer should not draw attention to itself. With room treatment and/or room correction software, the sub can be dialed in so as not to be even noticed....except for the excellent low end sound.
> 
> ...


You nailed right in the head Joe B - is all about extension and of course calibration as you mentioned ( I think you called it "Dialed-in" ) - Yes, is all about smooth reproduction at the right level and it can be made to work



Simon Moon said:


> You seem to be implying that by adding subs, you are adding excessive bass.
> 
> This is absolutely not true. Unless of course one chooses to crank up the sub louder than the main speakers.


Another great comment - Simon also hit it right in the head - people seem to be confusing proer hi-fi use of subwoofers with home theatre application . Indeed, in home theatres, the subwoofer's job seems to be to shake the ground. If that is all you know, indeed you will think that subwoofers have no place in music reproduction

That is not the case in hi-fi - as Joe said, properly calibrated ( and I have done so to mine rig, using both software and SPL level dedicated measuring devices) subwoofers do nothing more than they should.

And yes in mos CM recordings that means it will have not to much to do, compared to pop and jazz. I think in all these years, other than organ recordings and the timpani thack in Verdi's Dies Irae from the requiem, haven't heard my subwoofer be too noticeable in CM... on the other hand, you can notice the support it gives to the low strings, for example...

v


----------

