# "Greatest Genius of 20th Century Opera"



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

The American opera composer Robert Ashley passed away last Sunday. The musicologist (and his biographer) Kyle Gann wrote:

_"And let it be set down, Robert Ashley was one of the most amazing composers of the 20th century, and the greatest genius of 20th-century opera. I don't know how long it's going to take the world to recognize that. And it hardly matters. He knew it. That the world was too stupid to keep up was not his problem"_

http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/2014/03/robert-ashley-1930-2014.html#comments

"Greatest genius of 20th-century opera"

Really?



And here are several quotes by Robert Ashley:

_"I am too old and tired to attack the way things are. The Metropolitan Opera can keep on playing Italian opera until, when they are hit by a car, they bleed spaghetti sauce. Orchestras in strange places where the palaces are the triangular Hyatt Hotel with external elevators can keep on playing Beethoven until they go broke. That's okay with me. All of this is nostalgia on a gigantic psychopathic scale"_

[....]

_"Opera. What is it? And who cares? And who cares, because what it is has not a chance in the world of being altered in my lifetime. It is strange to use the word "poverty" in this audience, where almost certainly everybody owns a car (if not a parking space), a closet full of nice clothes, a kitchen full of food and a mind full of big plans for the future. But, in fact, there is an unacknowledged poverty, and it is probably more important to us than the car, the clothes, the food and the big plans"_

[....]

_"There is nothing remotely Italian about the Metropolitan Opera. But there it is. Planted in the middle of New York City, once catering to the left-over nostalgia of a huge number of Italian immigrants who then "controlled" the city, and catering now to the unfocussed nostalgia of its current audience. It continues in its reenactment of Italy becoming a nation, arming itself, drawing borders, trying pathetically to conquer Ethiopia, collapsing into economic chaos and black and white movies. The Metropolitan Opera, were it an individual, would be hospitalized. Such is the power of nostalgia"_

http://anecessarymusic.org/text/Robert Ashley_The Future of Music_1.pdf

----------------

It sounds to me like Mr. Ashley was an overlooked, bitter and envious man.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm not particualrly enamoured of what little of Ashley's music I know, but he certainly seemed to be a unique voice. Vale, Robert!

However, I'd have to largely agree with him about the state of opera and classical music in general (and his perspective on it's relative importance). Orchestras and operas are struggling and dying all over the place in a world where government and private largesse is increasingly prioritised away from the arts - and however much you like the music of Verdi or Beethoven it's not exactly packing in the punters, is it. Not that I think more programming of Mr Ashleys's music would have solved anything - it's a tricky problem tho and, if you devote your life to music, one you have every right to voice some strong views about from time to time


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Best American 20th century opera composer? Philip Glass. Although Porgy & Bess is an incredible composition, as well. And you may as well know it, I find Britten unlistenable.

I've heard some of Ashley's music and think it's, mmm, interesting. Not as stunning as Glass however.

His diatribes against the Met probably were written during the, er, reign of Rudolf Bing. He was imperious and did indeed favor Italian opera almost to the exclusion of others, except for an occasional Ring. Mozart, for example, was practically unheard during Bing's time.

Lemme sidebar a second... What a great and significant advance we're seen at the Met with Levine's control. Politics and favoritism has essentially disappeared, the quality of the Met orchestra has increased exponentially, and the operas performed cross most all boundaries, giving newcomers a voice as well as preserving the traditional fare.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Xavier said:


> The American opera composer Robert Ashley passed away last Sunday. The musicologist (and his biographer) Kyle Gann wrote:
> 
> _"And let it be set down, Robert Ashley was one of the most amazing composers of the 20th century, and the greatest genius of 20th-century opera. I don't know how long it's going to take the world to recognize that. And it hardly matters. He knew it. That the world was too stupid to keep up was not his problem"_
> 
> ...


Don't know about 'greatest' but the man was no lightweight. Just listened to some of his work and he was extremely talented.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Just as he dies, I belatedly discover this man's excellent work.*

RIP, Robert Ashley


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Thanks Lope - outside my usual box (as is the other Ashley I've heard) but I must have been in just the right mood because I found it really lovely!


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

dgee said:


> Thanks Lope - outside my usual box (as is the other Ashley I've heard) but I must have been in just the right mood because I found it really lovely!


Glad you like it! Cheers.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> RIP, Robert Ashley


Excellent work? You think so?

I can't say I found it compelling...


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Standard stuff here I see


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Must say this is the first time I have ever heard of the gentleman.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I like Ashley's approach to Opera. Yes, it's a different way to write Opera. For some people, will be even outside the frontiers of the genre (though not of musical theater). But he always had a personal voice.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

that's cool but I like The Doors better.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

deggial said:


> that's cool but I like The Doors better.


Most people would share your preference for The Doors. After all, there's no work involved in listening to such music; it's all predictably laid out for you, like a Hollywood production with a patented storyline.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Most people would share your preference for The Doors. After all, there's no work involved in listening to such music; it's all predictably laid out for you, like a Hollywood production with a patented storyline.


Whereas obviously listening to someone talking in a soft monotone over a static musical backdrop is impossible for anyone without a conservatoire education to comprehend.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Xavier said:


> Excellent work? You think so?
> 
> I can't say I found it compelling...


Sophisticated music isn't often deciphered on a few listens. My love of Stockhausen's work did not come quickly but once my brain adapted, I acquired a ravenous appetite for 'difficult' music. All this to say: give it a chance.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Yardrax said:


> Whereas obviously listening to someone talking in a soft monotone over a static musical backdrop is impossible for anyone without a conservatoire education to comprehend.


Don't know what 'conservatoire education' has anything to do with my reply. If Ashley's work is as pretentious and simple minded as you paint it out to be, then we should all be quite capable of creating music of such depth and sophistication that it would put all the masters to shame. Let's get started then, shall we? While we're at it, let's also set about to prove that the artist, Pablo Picasso was a hack whose work could easily be bested by the scribbles of a five year old.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Excuse me, but are we speaking of the "Greatest Genius of the 20th-Century Opera"?
Or of the "Greatest *American* Genius of the 20th-Century Opera"?

I have just listened to piece provided by Lope (thank you! He was completely unknown to me) and, although I found it interesting, IMO there are many other more qualified competitors for the first title...


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> If Ashley's work is as pretentious and simple minded as you paint it out to be, then we should all be quite capable of creating music of such depth and sophistication that it would put all the masters to shame.


How come? How did you get that from what Yardrax wrote?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> If Ashley's work is as pretentious and simple minded as you paint it out to be, then we should all be quite capable of creating music of such depth and sophistication that it would put all the masters to shame.


By this logic + your posts, I expect a new Doors album on my desk by Monday.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Don't know what 'conservatoire education' has anything to do with my reply. If Ashley's work is as pretentious and simple minded as you paint it out to be, then we should all be quite capable of creating music of such depth and sophistication that it would put all the masters to shame. Let's get started then, shall we? While we're at it, let's also set about to prove that the artist, Pablo Picasso was a hack whose work could easily be bested by the scribbles of a five year old.


Your claim was that understanding the piece you posted took a great deal of work, I picked a listener with a particular extreme of technical aptitude for rhetorical purposes.

Your argument in this post amounts to little more than, "If it's so bad, why don't you do it?" which doesn't warrant a reply.

Your total argument so far seems to amount to that this music is sophisticated, and that anyone who doesn't understand it obviously hasn't put the effort in to understand it. If I were a cynic, I would presume that for you the signifier that a listener had put the requisite amount of effort would be that they liked the piece. Since I'm not I'm left wondering how much listening work is required before the listener is allowed to say they don't like it. For me personally, one listen was more than enough to get the general idea and to know that it is not something I would ever listen to again.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Yardrax said:


> Your claim was that understanding the piece you posted took a great deal of work, I picked a listener with a particular extreme of technical aptitude for rhetorical purposes.
> 
> Your argument in this post amounts to little more than, "If it's so bad, why don't you do it?" which doesn't warrant a reply.
> 
> Your total argument so far seems to amount to that this music is sophisticated, and that anyone who doesn't understand it obviously hasn't put the effort in to understand it. If I were a cynic, I would presume that for you the signifier that a listener had put the requisite amount of effort would be that they liked the piece. Since I'm not I'm left wondering how much listening work is required before the listener is allowed to say they don't like it. For me personally, one listen was more than enough to get the general idea and to know that it is not something I would ever listen to again.


I am not a fan of Mozart's and yet I respect his work because personal taste aside, his work was genius. I wouldn't dare dismiss it based on personal preference alone. I have respect for creativity I could never hope to match. Fin.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

schigolch said:


> I like Ashley's approach to Opera. Yes, it's a different way to write Opera. For some people, will be even outside the frontiers of the genre (though not of musical theater). But he always had a personal voice.


Why do so many people today stress the importance of.... 'personal voice'? So what?

Isn't there more to the appeal of music or an opera than its being striking and original?

What about the experience of being overwhelmed by its beauty or by its truthfulness in the representation of emotion?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I would not care too much about the title of "greatest opera composer". I read Kyle Gann often with pleasure and I've discovered Ashley thanks to him but I don't see the problem, it's just his opinion. Probably he wants to emphasize the fact that Ashley created something very original (and to me the hypnotic quality of his voice in a piece like "The Park" is incredibly fascinating). But I don't even see the need to say that his work should be considered opera (even if I understand perfectly the connection), especially if this would be taken as an argument to say that he's not the greatest in the genre, who cares. His work should be judged for its own merits.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I am not a fan of Mozart's and yet I respect his work because personal taste aside, his work was genius. I wouldn't dare dismiss it based on personal preference alone. I have respect for creativity I could never hope to match. Fin.


I don't actually believe that it is possible to put aside one's personal judgement when making an aesthetic evaluation. I could of course say, for example, that Ashley was a genius, but it wouldn't mean anything, because I don't actually value his work, except perhaps that I care about my social standing on a classical music form and am therefore willing to lie openly about what I think so that people won't dislike me.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Yardrax said:


> I don't actually believe that it is possible to put aside one's personal judgement when making an aesthetic evaluation. I could of course say, for example, that Ashley was a genius, but it wouldn't mean anything, because I don't actually value his work, accept perhaps that I care about my social standing on a classical music form and am therefore willing to lie openly about what I think so that people won't dislike me.


Your 'beliefs' are yours, sir. And don't call people 'liars' on a forum unless you're willing and able to do so face to face. For the record, I think I'll get along quite well without your approval. What monstrous ego. Pitiful.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I would not care too much about the title of "greatest opera composer". I read Kyle Gann often with pleasure and I've discovered Ashley thanks to him but I don't see the problem, it's just his opinion.


Fine, it's just his opinion. But does he have to call us 'stupid' for not being able to 'keep up' and love Ashley's work?

I still remember something Gann wrote back in 2005:



> _The Mozart myth, I've always felt, was
> 
> 1. a condescending image created by his father, and
> 
> ...


It seems to me that Mr. Gann himself also sounds like an overlooked, bitter and envious individual.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xavier said:


> Why do so many people today stress the importance of.... 'personal voice'? So what?


Every great work you hold as great, or good, even, is from a composer with a distinct personal voice. The ones which are 'bad' or 'forgettable' are by those who did not have a distinct personal voice -- their works sound blandly generic.
That is why 'personal voice' is so highly valued and esteemed in art in general.

Some would exaggerate that 'personal voice' to mean something striving for an individuality which brings only attention without any other merits attached -- that is the Andy Warhol "15 minutes" idea, taken to extremes by MTV's _Real world,_ where people of a generation began to think that being well-known for anything was of such importance to them, that they were indeed holding title to being well known: that led to people thinking that even acting like a notable jerk, if it got them the 'fame,' validated the means.

While there are phenomena in the arts of a person gaining 'fame' (or notoriety) for next to nothing more than shee moxie, the majority who dedicate their time to art, having opted for a much less practical and difficult way to make a living, are actually quite sincere in what they make.



Xavier said:


> Isn't there more to the appeal of music or an opera than its being striking and original?


Again, just about every work you love and admire was originally, in one way or another, striking and original.



Xavier said:


> What about the experience of being overwhelmed by its beauty or by its truthfulness in the representation of emotion?


I believe those who generally have strikingly strong conservative taste are likely unable to recognize "beauty and truthfulness in the representation of emotion" in works which are in vocabulary and form outside the boundaries of that staunch conservatism, and that means they will not be overwhelmed or deeply moved by those. There is something, then, in that post about the "near psychotic nostalgia" factor which accompanies a good deal of that certain sort of conservatism.

... music portraying the emotions of a walk on a lovely summer's eve does not automatically qualify the music as having to be in a harmonic style of the 19th century or earlier, does not require the music be "tonal," etc. !


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Xavier said:


> Why do so many people today stress the importance of.... 'personal voice'? So what?
> 
> Isn't there more to the appeal of music or an opera than its being striking and original?
> 
> What about the experience of being overwhelmed by its beauty or by its truthfulness in the representation of emotion?


They are not incompatible!.

For sure there are more things to an opera that being striking and original. Though I'm not as easily overwhelmed by beauty or emotion as you apparently does (I'm usually more attracted to the analytical pleasures to be found when listening or reading an operatic score ), indeed some pieces with little or no claim to 'originality' are also among my favorites.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Xavier said:


> It seems to me that Mr. Gann himself also sounds like an overlooked, bitter and envious individual.


To me this means just that he doesn't like Mozart. And he knows enough about music to has the right to his opinion. 
If we have to consider envious any person who don't like a certain important composer we should should say the same of many of those great composers too.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

PetrB said:


> I believe those who generally have strikingly strong conservative taste are likely unable to recognize "beauty and truthfulness in the representation of emotion" in works which are in vocabulary and form outside the boundaries of that staunch conservatism, and that means they will not be overwhelmed or deeply moved by those. There is something, then, in that post about the "near psychotic nostalgia" factor which accompanies a good deal of that certain sort of conservatism.
> 
> [....]music portraying the emotions of a walk on a lovely summer's eve does not automatically qualify the music as having to be in a harmonic style of the 19th century or earlier, does not require the music be "tonal," etc. !


You know little about me. This has nothing to do with 'conservatism' or 'tonal language'

_Moses and Aron_, _Saint Francis of Assisi_ and _The Mask of Orpheus_ are just a few of my favorite operas.

As a new listening experience, Robert Ashley is a discovery; as for the substance, I think he'll receive no more than a footnote in the history of Opera / Classical Music.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Most people would share your preference for The Doors. After all, there's no work involved in listening to such music; it's all predictably laid out for you, like a Hollywood production with a patented storyline.


Ha.ha.ha. Dude, that piece is Riders in the Storm or The End or Horse Latitudes or whathaveyou with less stream of consciousness lyrics. Done 10 years later.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

schigolch said:


> Though I'm not as easily overwhelmed by beauty or emotion as you apparently does (I'm usually more attracted to the analytical pleasures to be found when listening or reading an operatic score )


These things are *not* mutually exclusive.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Xavier said:


> You know little about me. This has nothing to do with 'conservatism' or 'tonal language'
> 
> _Moses and Aron_, _Saint Francis of Assisi_ and _The Mask of Orpheus_ are just a few of my favorite operas.
> 
> As a new listening experience, Robert Ashley is a discovery; as for the substance, I think he'll receive no more than a footnote in the history of Opera / Classical Music.


While I don't agree with your assesment of Robert Ashley's work, I do think that you have excellent taste. Moses und Aron, Saint Francis of Assisi and The Mask of Orpheus are some of my favorites as well.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

deggial said:


> Ha.ha.ha. Dude, that piece is Riders in the Storm or The End or Horse Latitudes or whathaveyou with less stream of consciousness lyrics. Done 10 years later.


that's true and we can also find previous examples of a person talking over the music, the tradition of the talking blues, George Russell's Manhattan, Schoenberg and his A survivor from Warsaw, certain works of Maurice Ohana... and I'm sure that there are others, however I think that still the effect of the voice of Ashley is pretty unique.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Yardrax said:


> Whereas obviously listening to someone talking in a soft monotone over a static musical backdrop is impossible for anyone without a conservatoire education to comprehend.


_"That's right buddy! And it's not just this stuff that you can't comprehend, we people with conservatoire educations even know more comprehensively the stuff you know and love (that we so frequently disdain!). You'll just never, NEVER, understand music as deeply as us. Hahahahahahaha"_

I'm joking of course - but wasn't that exciting for someone to play along with your fantasies about what other people are thinking?


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

dgee said:


> _"That's right buddy! And it's not just this stuff that you can't comprehend, we people with conservatoire educations even know more comprehensively the stuff you know and love (that we so frequently disdain!). You'll just never, NEVER, understand music as deeply as us. Hahahahahahaha"_
> 
> I'm joking of course - but wasn't that exciting for someone to play along with your fantasies about what other people are thinking?


I don't get this post. Are you taking what Yardrax said literally or not? He was being sarcastic about Robert Ashley's work, not people with conservatoire education.


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

Anyway, what's so great and original about his music?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Leonard Cohen - (1967) Songs of Leonard Cohen*

Let's give Robert Ashley a break and listen to something we can all agree is great...


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Leonard Cohen? There's no work involved in listening to such music; it's all predictably laid out for you, like a Hollywood production with a patented storyline.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Leonard Cohen? There's no work involved in listening to such music; it's all predictably laid out for you, like a Hollywood production with a patented storyline.


LOL! Like Puccini isn't?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

deggial said:


> that's cool but I like The Doors better.


I always turn to The Doors whenever Wagner or Puccini are being played, because The Doors are the handiest way to leave the room or the concert hall.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Leonard Cohen? There's no work involved in listening to such music; it's all predictably laid out for you, like a Hollywood production with a patented storyline.


No. You're wrong. Which is why no one has been able to successfully replicate Cohen's art. This is true of the music and especially the lyrics. Morrison was a great actor but he was not a poet and that's painfully evident in his lyrics. Cheers.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> No. You're wrong. Which is why no one has been able to successfully replicate Cohen's art. This is true of the music and especially the lyrics.


Anyway, I think that Mark Kozelek has learnt a lot from him.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

FleshRobot said:


> Anyway, what's so great and original about his music?


For me, the fact the he sounds like he's between consciousness and unconsciousness. In "Automatic writing" he even used his mild tourette's syndrome to make unintentional noises during the recording.
Alex Ross made a great comparison, saying that "In some ways, Ashley is the musical counterpart of David Lynch, a detective of weird secrets amid everyday life, but he's a gentler, more compassionate spirit."


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> No. You're wrong. Which is why no one has been able to successfully replicate Cohen's art. This is true of the music and especially the lyrics. Morrison was a great actor but he was not a poet and that's painfully evident in his lyrics. Cheers.


No. You're wrong. I expect that new Doors album on my desk by Friday, now.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> I always turn to The Doors whenever Wagner or Puccini are being played, because The Doors are the handiest way to leave the room or the concert hall.


you can do so much better than that. Or were you looking for a pity laugh?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

norman bates said:


> however I think that still the effect of the voice of Ashley is pretty unique.


yes and so was the effect of Jim Morrison's voice. We're really talking about liking this thing over that thing so it's pretty moot, don't you think? I actually listened to other bits of Private Parts beside the clip in this thread and The Doors immediately came to mind as opposed to other pieces done in a similar tehcnique, hence why I mentioned it had been done ten years earlier.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> No. You're wrong. I expect that new Doors album on my desk by Friday, now.


Anything you say, 'arcaneholocaust'. Anything you say. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

deggial said:


> yes and so was the effect of Jim Morrison's voice. We're really talking about liking this thing over that thing so it's pretty moot, don't you think? I actually listened to other bits of Private Parts beside the clip in this thread and The Doors immediately came to mind as opposed to other pieces done in a similar tehcnique, hence why I mentioned it had been done ten years earlier.


Yes, but I've tried to explain what's unique in Ashley's work in the previous post even compared to similar experiments made by Harry Partch or Schoenberg etc, so I wasn't just talking of my tastes. And by the way, he did it before Morrison (and I like Horse latitude!) and he did other different things.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*The lyrical / poetic genius of Jim Morrison*

"End of the night"

Take the highway to the
end of the night
End of the night
End of the night
Take a journey to the bright midnight
End of the night
End of the night

Realms of bliss
Realms of light
Some are born to sweet delight
Some are born to sweet delight
Some are born to the endless night

End of the night
End of the night
End of the night
End of the night

_It's probably best that we end it here since he just continues to repeat himself ad nauseam. _


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

I enjoy Leonard Cohen from time to time, but your random off-topic link was dubious considered you'd just expressed a distaste for simple, accessible music a page or two earlier. But I'll entertain you.

The notion that Leonard Cohen's art has never been successfully replicated is laughable. I take it you meant one of two things:

1) No one has ever successfully created music in Cohen's _exact style_ that could achieve a similar level of critical acclaim. Now, this interpretation would be true, but it's strange that you would bring it up because it's more of a universal law of art that art cannot be "successfully replicated". Because most artists that bring nothing new to the table but merely strive for exact replication do not achieve any sort of success (beyond commercial) or acclaim, "successfully replicated" is a bit of an oxymoron. See people's arguments against neo-romanticism, but at least there's *something* new there.

2) Or perhaps you just meant that no one has ever made great music/lyrics in the setting of the standard duet for poet and guitar. This would just be flat out wrong, of course, as Cohen was not even the first poet to pick up a guitar and put some really hard-hitting tunes to paper.

The comparison to The Doors is also arbitrary, as Cohen could only be deemed objectively better than The Doors in a world where lyrics are the sole emphasis of music. At least Jim Morrison found his calling. Cohen? Who knows, maybe he would've been better as simply a pure poet.

You seem to enjoy your objective stance on music, and of course I'm not the best person to speak on this given my posts in various metal threads, but I assure you I only get so assertive in THOSE threads because I'm quite sure I have more actual experience with metal music than 99.9% of the posters here.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I like Louie, Louie. Driving search for existential escape, mystery-imbued lyrics, unfulfillable longing... Me gotta go.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

I've spent the day exploring more Ashley and finished with his opera _That Morning Thing_ (1968)

Here:






Honestly folks, I don't think I've ever been more bored from a first hearing of an opera. I can find nothing here.... zero attraction.

And then I came across these two quotes today:



> _"I imagine some more advanced civilization, hundreds of years from now, coming back to Ashley's operas and finally realizing them in their intended form, the way we revive Baroque opera in detailed technological splendor now.
> 
> "When the 21st Century glances back to see where the future of opera came from, Ashley, like *Monteverdi* before him, is going to look like a radical new beginning" *-- Kyle Gann*_


Ok, Mr. Gann, whatever... 

I'll think I'll stick with _The Tempest_ (Ades) and _Written on Skin_ (Benjamin) to name just two operas from the past 10 years that I greatly admire.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Xavier said:


> I've spent the day exploring more Ashley and finished with his opera _That Morning Thing_ (1968)
> 
> Here:
> 
> ...


Well, you looked into it and it's not your cup of tea. Can't fault you for that. Written on Skin is great though. Benjamin is a favorite.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

PetrB said:


> I always turn to The Doors whenever Wagner or Puccini are being played, because The Doors are the handiest way to leave the room or the concert hall.


The Doors... of Perception, the Aldous Huxley book?. That's certainly a very interesting way of "leaving" the room, if you know what I mean...


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

aleazk said:


> The Doors... of Perception, the Aldous Huxley book?. That's certainly a very interesting way of "leaving" the room, if you know what I mean...


The Doors of Perception and an earlier quotation about "Some are born to sweet delight/Some are born to endless night" are both from William Blake.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Revenant said:


> The Doors of Perception and an earlier quotation about "Some are born to sweet delight/Some are born to endless night" are both from William Blake.


Not to get too far OT, but Wm Blake's poetry and art inspired a VERY substantial and excellent work by Bolcom. The 3-CD set can be had for $4 used right now.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Revenant said:


> The Doors of Perception and an earlier quotation about "Some are born to sweet delight/Some are born to endless night" are both from William Blake.


Yes, Huxley took it from Blake, and Morrison from Huxley.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> No. You're wrong. I expect that new Doors album on my desk by Friday, now.


We expect it from you, since you seem to think you have a full grasp of what was necessary to create a (successful) Doors album.

But hey, it seems some folks think it 'just a snap' to replicate either Jim Morrison's powerful charisma as a communicator, or Leonard Cohen's poetic lyric writing capacity.

I expect one of each, a Morrison album and a Cohen album, from you by the end of the this following seven days


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

aleazk said:


> The Doors... of Perception, the Aldous Huxley book?. That's certainly a very interesting way of "leaving" the room, if you know what I mean...


Huxley's _Doors of perception_ is a compact and elegant work.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xavier said:


> I'll think I'll stick with _The Tempest_ (Ades) and _Written on Skin_ (Benjamin) to name just two operas from the past 10 years that I greatly admire.


Okeedoh, you're a traditionalist, and there is nothing wrong with that -- until you make the perpetuation of a rant against all which is not traditionalist a sort of mini hobby / career.

With so much to love, I have to wonder why the lover instead concentrates upon that which they don't love, i.e. giving that so much time and attention.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Huxley's _Doors of perception_ is a compact and elegant work.


For acidheads, at least.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> For acidheads, at least.


... or anyone who recognizes high end literary writing, though I'll admit that is probably an acquired sensibility; the qualifications / quantitative experiences needed to acquire the ability to recognize great writing do not include taking hallucinogens


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> ... or anyone who recognizes high end literary writing, though I'll admit that is probably an acquired sensibility; the qualifications / quantitative experiences needed to acquire the ability to recognize great writing do not include taking hallucinogens


Well, I admit to being a nekulturny hillbilly, but I do know my Owsley from my Sandoz.

BTW "Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World, became a user of psychedelics after moving to Hollywood. He was at the forefront of the counterculture's experimentation with psychedelic drugs, which led to his 1954 work The Doors of Perception." (Wiki)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Well, I admit to being a nekulturny hillbilly, but I do know my Owsley from my Sandoz.
> 
> BTW "Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World, became a user of psychedelics after moving to Hollywood. He was at the forefront of the counterculture's experimentation with psychedelic drugs, which led to his 1954 work The Doors of Perception." (Wiki)


Grace Slick had two medicine cabinets in her bathroom, one for the recreational, the other for normal medications: she did that after mistaking, I suppose, a tab of LSD or some such for an aspirin tablet one time too many.

I suppose that sort of mistake could be terribly inconvenient if, say, you just wanted an aspirin and were about to head off to work


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Well, I admit to being a nekulturny hillbilly, but I do know my Owsley from my Sandoz.
> 
> BTW "Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World, became a user of psychedelics after moving to Hollywood. He was at the forefront of the counterculture's experimentation with psychedelic drugs, which led to his 1954 work The Doors of Perception." (Wiki)


Hey, lets not forget about the Beatles too - regular users of psychedelics. If I recall correctly you were a fan of them, does that mean you are an 'acidhead'?

edit - On another note sorry I'm not too familiar with the composer in the OP, but that won't stop me from adding my 2 cents on The Doors and Leonard Cohen, I think they're both fantastic!


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Back in the 60s when I was a foolish young man, I remember one afternoon (speaking of acid) when I decided to play some music. So I went to the shelves where I had all my LPs, and as is best, they were all on the shelf side by side, vertical.

And as I was browsing the titles, utter panic swept over me! My gosh, I'm going insane! I cannot read the LP titles -- it's all gibberish, my mind is gone!

Yes, while trying to read the LP labels, the edge text, all I got was "G...K...M...E...P...R...etc" Totally jumbled.

It was only a couple hours later that I realized that I'd been trying to read the LP labels ACROSS! Yes, I was trying to read the LPs one letter at a time per each LP, reading across the stacked discs instead of reading DOWN!

This is a true story and evidence of what problems a "head" sometimes faced, most of his own making.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

katdad said:


> Back in the 60s when I was a foolish young man, I remember one afternoon (speaking of acid) when I decided to play some music. So I went to the shelves where I had all my LPs, and as is best, they were all on the shelf side by side, vertical.
> 
> And as I was browsing the titles, utter panic swept over me! My gosh, I'm going insane! I cannot read the LP titles -- it's all gibberish, my mind is gone!
> 
> ...


"Oh, wow, man!"

So... did any new revelatory textual meaning come from reading those Lp texts horizontally?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Speaking of the 60s, did anyone ever get into the 'beat' writers? The only one I found worthwhile was Burroughs. Naked Lunch gave me nightmares.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> "Oh, wow, man!"
> 
> So... did any new revelatory textual meaning come from reading those Lp texts horizontally?


Not a lot. The principal assessment was essentially 1) Never go outside during these times -- stay home where it's safe, 2) Learn to laugh at yourself, and 3) Wow! That was great stuff!

** recommendations while taking LSD: 1) Don't try to fix a TV dinner -- you have to TIME it and time becomes flexible, and 2) Never try to defrost the fridge -- I tried that once and all the frozen food ended up sitting on bookshelves in the living room, neatly labeled. And thawed.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Speaking of the 60s, did anyone ever get into the 'beat' writers? The only one I found worthwhile was Burroughs. Naked Lunch gave me nightmares.


I got to know Bill Burroughs slightly. I was, during that era, very connected with the poetic and musical people and during my time in San Francisco, met many of them**. Burroughs was an incredibly bright man with a checkered past -- he shot his wife, you know. Most writers of what might be termed "oddball" works nearly always seem very ordinary when you actually meet them, nothing like the stories they string out.

Which makes sense... I write pretty intense supernatural short stories and my mystery novels are quite graphic, but I am in fact just a regular guy who happens to be kinda bright and have a good education. All the turmoil and grit in my stories has no connection to my real life. I'm just now sitting on my recliner, typing on my laptop (and soon to get back to my new novel, in progress) while my girlfriend is lounging on the sofa, reading a book on Kant.

**(I had the "distinction" to have been hit upon by Allen Ginsberg at a party. I told him, thanks no, I don't go that way, and he said okay, no offense, I replied no offense taken. Ginsberg was pretty drunk at the time, as his partner Peter Olorfsky was just in the next room playing guitar)


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

katdad said:


> I got to know Bill Burroughs slightly. I was, during that era, very connected with the poetic and musical people and during my time in San Francisco, met many of them**. Burroughs was an incredibly bright man with a checkered past -- he shot his wife, you know. Most writers of what might be termed "oddball" works nearly always seem very ordinary when you actually meet them, nothing like the stories they string out.
> 
> Which makes sense... I write pretty intense supernatural short stories and my mystery novels are quite graphic, but I am in fact just a regular guy who happens to be kinda bright and have a good education. All the turmoil and grit in my stories has no connection to my real life. I'm just now sitting on my recliner, typing on my laptop (and soon to get back to my new novel, in progress) while my girlfriend is lounging on the sofa, reading a book on Kant.
> 
> **(I had the "distinction" to have been hit upon by Allen Ginsberg at a party. I told him, thanks no, I don't go that way, and he said okay, no offense, I replied no offense taken. Ginsberg was pretty drunk at the time, as his partner Peter Olorfsky was just in the next room playing guitar)


You're quite fortunate to have a literary gift. The written word and music are extremely powerful mediums with the potential to change minds. Thanks for sharing your experience, it was a fascinating read.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> You're quite fortunate to have a literary gift. The written word and music are extremely powerful mediums with the potential to change minds. Thanks for sharing your experience, it was a fascinating read.


Thanks. I actually spent my "productive" years in chemistry, biology, and engineering. Started out w. pre-med and migrated to research chemistry & biochem, and also took a 2nd major in English lit, my focus on James Joyce. So I've worked in both science and literary (as a reporter). Weird to have both hemispheres of the ol' brain running full speed, but fun. Most recently before I retired from "regular" work I was an engineering consultant for firms doing extreme deepwater exploration (greater than 10k feet) and at the same time, studying voice and singing semi-pro operatic baritone in numerous operas as well as in choral societies.

Although I've written most of my life (a city desk reporter, book & movie reviews, articles, short stories, etc) I began to focus on writing private detective novels. So although I'm "retired" I have written (and sold for publication) 2 novels and I'm working on the 3rd. Several years ago I had a serious heart attack and although I survived bypass surgery nicely, my breath is only about a third of what it was, and some very creepy arthritis, so I don't perform in operas any longer and just sing occasionally for friends' birthdays and such.

I do however keep writing, and my publisher keeps asking "when?" and I say "summer" but it's more likely to be fall before I'm finished with the 3rd private detective novel in the series. Hey, 90,000 words don't come easy! Whew! I sometimes think I'm more busy in "retirement" than when I worked 8-5.

btw, anyone who's intrigued, you can find both my mystery novels (modern day private detective but far more literate than what you might expect) at Amazon, available both hardcopy and Kindle. The 1st is "Blood Spiral" and the 2nd (and better) is "Blood Storm". Both books are not fantasy private detective, instead very realistic. They're written for adults, with some graphic violence at times, although the principal story line is quite literate, not at all the stereotypical "Mike Hammer" genre.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

katdad said:


> Thanks. I actually spent my "productive" years in chemistry, biology, and engineering. Started out w. pre-med and migrated to research chemistry & biochem, and also took a 2nd major in English lit, my focus on James Joyce. So I've worked in both science and literary (as a reporter). Weird to have both hemispheres of the ol' brain running full speed, but fun. Most recently before I retired from "regular" work I was an engineering consultant for firms doing extreme deepwater exploration (greater than 10k feet) and at the same time, studying voice and singing semi-pro operatic baritone in numerous operas as well as in choral societies.
> 
> Although I've written most of my life (a city desk reporter, book & movie reviews, articles, short stories, etc) I began to focus on writing private detective novels. So although I'm "retired" I have written (and sold for publication) 2 novels and I'm working on the 3rd. Several years ago I had a serious heart attack and although I survived bypass surgery nicely, my breath is only about a third of what it was, and some very creepy arthritis, so I don't perform in operas any longer and just sing occasionally for friends' birthdays and such.
> 
> I do however keep writing, and my publisher keeps asking "when?" and I say "summer" but it's more likely to be fall before I'm finished with the 3rd private detective novel in the series. Hey, 90,000 words don't come easy! Whew! I sometimes think I'm more busy in "retirement" than when I worked 8-5.


You certainly sound busy. May I inquire as to the titles of your two published works?

Joyce - I tried to like his work numerous times but to no avail. I am certainly not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination but for me, Beckett was easier to love. I've mostly given up on fiction though. As I get older I gravitate more towards history. "Kolyma Tales" by Varlam Shalamov was the last book I read. It's not a historical document but more of a 'historical fiction' hybrid. Either way, it's a powerful work. Have you read it?


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> You certainly sound busy. May I inquire as to the titles of your two published works?


The 2 detective novels are "Blood Spiral" and "Blood Storm" and can be found on Amazon, among other venues. Of the two, I'd recommend Storm as the better, since you learn by doing and it's my 2nd book. I've also got a bunch of book reviews, articles, and short stories scattered around, but they are all out of print, understandably.

You can also find some of my mystery book reviews on the website "OverMyDeadBody.com", a mystery fansite.


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