# what genre is this old song closest to?



## johnfkingmatrix

i really like this song, and am really curious about what makes "it" what it is.

is it la pompe/ gypsy jazz?

i feel this one is similar genre, but could be wrong











im guessing its some sub-genre of jazz, but whenever i search jazz its not like this at all. this is more lively, yet darker.. to my ears.. and very nostalgic /old sounding. 
what am i hearing, and what are the defining technical characteristics?

i looked at sheet music and i get a quick cut time beat , with usage of sharp 7th accidental. is there anything else im missing, if i were to try to recreate this genre?

thanks a ton, guys !


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## EdwardBast

If you don't get an answer here, you might try the Non-classical forum. Jazz enthusiasts probably more likely to visit there?


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## Bwv 1080

Sounds to me like Louis is the primary influence here (but with Jazz that kind of goes without saying for Swing)


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## fluteman

johnfkingmatrix said:


> i really like this song, and am really curious about what makes "it" what it is.
> 
> is it la pompe/ gypsy jazz?
> 
> i feel this one is similar genre, but could be wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> im guessing its some sub-genre of jazz, but whenever i search jazz its not like this at all. this is more lively, yet darker.. to my ears.. and very nostalgic /old sounding.
> what am i hearing, and what are the defining technical characteristics?
> 
> i looked at sheet music and i get a quick cut time beat , with usage of sharp 7th accidental. is there anything else im missing, if i were to try to recreate this genre?
> 
> thanks a ton, guys !


Never mind genre, which is classic 1920s swing, this classic Sherman brothers song has a more than passing resemblance to this very famous dance tune:


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## SanAntone

Bwv 1080 said:


> Sounds to me like Louis is the primary influence here (but with Jazz that kind of goes without saying for Swing)]


I agree. Basically a Traditional Jazz style, with a little of that "Spanish tinge" Jelly Roll talked about, and especially with the trumpet solo it links it to Satchmo.


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## johnfkingmatrix

fluteman said:


> Never mind genre, which is classic 1920s swing, this classic Sherman brothers song has a more than passing resemblance to this very famous dance tune:


OMG that's the bear song, no question !~ !

the monkey song is distinctly "minor" to my ears.. is that all there is to it?
" 20s swing " with a few #7 accidentals for "Spanish flair" and the right instrumentation?

whenever i search for "minor swing" i get a django song, which is no doubt similar. .. was hoping to delve more into this genre but cant find much that sounds dark, like the monkey song.

thanks for the on going help guys, its fun finding new stuff


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## johnfkingmatrix

SanAntone said:


> I agree. Basically a Traditional Jazz style, with a little of that "Spanish tinge" Jelly Roll talked about, and especially with the trumpet solo it links it to Satchmo.


trumpet solo? ..the orangutan is playing it by blowing into his hands, you can see it if you look at the 2:33 mark


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## SanAntone

johnfkingmatrix said:


> trumpet solo? ..the orangutan is playing it by blowing into his hands, you can see it if you look at the 2:33 mark


I didn't watch the cartoon and it sounded like a trumpet. Yeah, you're welcome.


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## fluteman

johnfkingmatrix said:


> OMG that's the bear song, no question !~ !
> 
> the monkey song is distinctly "minor" to my ears.. is that all there is to it?
> " 20s swing " with a few #7 accidentals for "Spanish flair" and the right instrumentation?
> 
> whenever i search for "minor swing" i get a django song, which is no doubt similar. .. was hoping to delve more into this genre but cant find much that sounds dark, like the monkey song.
> 
> thanks for the on going help guys, its fun finding new stuff


The Sherman brothers were masters at adopting all sorts of popular styles so that the songs in their shows didn't all sound the same. Here, I'm wondering if The Charleston wasn't in the public domain by the time they used it in The Jungle Book, as their song comes very close to being a full on copy of the original.

As for the Aristocats song, you might notice the similarity to this swing classic:






But I don't hear anything in a minor key in what you have linked. All just typical swing.


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## johnfkingmatrix

SanAntone said:


> I didn't watch the cartoon and it sounded like a trumpet. Yeah, you're welcome.


lol, sorry bruh was just kidding. thanks for the input


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## johnfkingmatrix

thanks all. so , in conclusion : it's standard swing, and i need to just research swing composition. and nothing about the monkey song distinguishes it as anything different?


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## fluteman

johnfkingmatrix said:


> thanks all. so , in conclusion : it's standard swing, and i need to just research swing composition. and nothing about the monkey song distinguishes it as anything different?


If you really care about the Sherman brothers, there's a biography called Walt Disney's Melody Makers.

And actually, The Charleston, a song dating back to 1923, comes from the era of "stride piano" as exemplified by the great Fats Waller, and derived from Ragtime, and so a very early form of Jazz. The monkey song is in that stride style too. Sing, Sing, Sing is a little later, from 1936, and the big 'swing band' era of the 30s and 40s.


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## SanAntone

James P. Johnson, sometimes called the "Father of Stride Piano," wrote the song "Charleston." But he also composed one symphony, and I believe, an opera.


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## johnfkingmatrix

fluteman said:


> If you really care about the Sherman brothers, there's a biography called Walt Disney's Melody Makers.
> 
> And actually, The Charleston, a song dating back to 1923, comes from the era of "stride piano" as exemplified by the great Fats Waller, and derived from Ragtime, and so a very early form of Jazz. The monkey song is in that stride style too. Sing, Sing, Sing is a little later, from 1936, and the big 'swing band' era of the 30s and 40s.


louise prima who did sing sing sing, was cast as the monkey's voice in junglebook (1967) so that would definitely explain the connection. i had no idea who he was


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## fluteman

SanAntone said:


> James P. Johnson, sometimes called the "Father of Stride Piano," wrote the song "Chaleston." But he also composed one symphony, and I believe, an opera.


Yes, that's the name I was thinking of.



johnfkingmatrix said:


> louise prima who did sing sing sing, was cast as the monkey's voice in junglebook (1967) so that would definitely explain the connection. i had no idea who he was


Louis Prima was a huge star of the swing era, and still would have been known to audiences listening to the Jungle Book soundtrack in 1967. I don't think making monkeys scat-singing jazzers would go over so well today, though I doubt the Shermans intended anything racist. What they intended was to use an established American music tradition for comic theatrical effect. They just as well could have made the monkeys into a bluegrass band. Lin-Manuel Miranda does the same thing when he makes Alexander Hamilton a rapper.


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## SanAntone

I think *Louis Jordan* is more interesting than Louis Prima, at least from a Jazz perspective.






"Jump Blues" is a style typified by Louis Jordan and others - great stuff.


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## johnfkingmatrix

fluteman said:


> Yes, that's the name I was thinking of.
> 
> I don't think making monkeys scat-singing jazzers would go over so well today


LOL !

i like it, though. its more in line with how i see the world


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## fluteman

SanAntone said:


> I think *Louis Jordan* is more interesting than Louis Prima, at least from a Jazz perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Jump Blues" is a style typified by Louis Jordan and others - great stuff.


I love Louis Jordan. There was a Broadway musical based on his music called "Five Guys Named Moe" -- the name of one of his songs -- that I was lucky enough to get to. It didn't get the rave reviews it deserved.


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## EdwardBast

fluteman said:


> Yes, that's the name I was thinking of.
> 
> Louis Prima was a huge star of the swing era, and still would have been known to audiences listening to the Jungle Book soundtrack in 1967. *I don't think making monkeys scat-singing jazzers would go over so well today, though I doubt the Shermans intended anything racist.* What they intended was to use an established American music tradition for comic theatrical effect. They just as well could have made the monkeys into a bluegrass band. Lin-Manuel Miranda does the same thing when he makes Alexander Hamilton a rapper.


Intention's got nothing to do with it. In fact, given our collective history, doing it without even having to form an intention is worse.


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## johnfkingmatrix

EdwardBast said:


> Intention's got nothing to do with it. In fact, given our collective history, doing it without even having to form an intention is worse.


that assumes being a monkey worse than being a bear / elephant/ boa , though


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## SanAntone

*********** duplicate post ***********


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## SanAntone

johnfkingmatrix said:


> that assumes being a monkey worse than being a bear / elephant/ boa , though


All it assumes is the history of racism in the US, where African Americans were routinely called and caricatured as monkeys.


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## johnfkingmatrix

SanAntone said:


> All it assumes is the history of racism in the US, where African Americans were routinely called and caricatured as monkeys.


louis prima is anglo, though.


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## SanAntone

johnfkingmatrix said:


> louis prima is anglo, though.


That is beside the point which was:



> I don't think making monkeys scat-singing jazzers would go over so well today, though I doubt the Shermans intended anything racist.


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## johnfkingmatrix

ah that's true. times have changed : /


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## fluteman

EdwardBast said:


> Intention's got nothing to do with it. In fact, given our collective history, doing it without even having to form an intention is worse.


The problem I have with your post is that it makes it seem like I was defending one of the many racially insensitive Disney movies of years past, when in fact I was doing exactly the opposite. Of course the intent of the writers, or lack thereof, or the different standards of those times, does not make those old movies any more acceptable. I didn't wish to discuss this clip without mentioning this aspect of it, which certainly is offensive to me.

I notice none of the other posters in this thread, including you, acknowledged the obviously racist aspect of this clip, until I raised it. While I don't believe in self-censorship or not discussing old songs for this reason, I do believe the responsible thing to do, if such songs are to be discussed, is to note that this discussion should not be taken as an acceptance of racist slurs and stereotypes. And that is what I tried to say, in a polite, non-confrontational manner.


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## SanAntone

fluteman said:


> The problem I have with your post is that it makes it seem like I was defending one of the many racially insensitive Disney movies of years past, when in fact I was doing exactly the opposite. Of course the intent of the writers, or lack thereof, or the different standards of those times, does not make those old movies any more acceptable. I didn't wish to discuss this clip without mentioning this aspect of it, which certainly is offensive to me.
> 
> I notice none of the other posters in this thread, including you, acknowledged the obviously racist aspect of this clip, until I raised it. While I don't believe in self-censorship or not discussing old songs for this reason, I do believe the responsible thing to do, if such songs are to be discussed, is to note that this discussion should not be taken as an acceptance of racist slurs and stereotypes. And that is what I tried to say, in a polite, non-confrontational manner.


I agree with you, but don't think EdwardBast was being critical of your post. I think he was agreeing with you by pointing out something in addition to what you posted in order to underscore your point.


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## fluteman

SanAntone said:


> I agree with you, but don't think EdwardBast was being critical of your post. I think he was agreeing with you by pointing out something in addition to what you posted in order to underscore your point.


OK, if so, I apologize to him. Nobody wants to get into a long discussion about racism in old Disney movies, not to mention numerous old American songs, newspaper comic strips, etc., etc., but I'm going to mention it, however briefly, every time and every place it comes up. It can't be accepted as normal and OK. End of pompous sermon.


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## johnfkingmatrix

fluteman said:


> but I'm going to mention it, however briefly, every time and every place it comes up.


**********
good citizen


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## fluteman

johnfkingmatrix said:


> **********
> good citizen


The last thing I want is to get into debates about things like this, but the problem is, if you discuss material like this and ignore the racist element, it can look like tacit acceptance and others might attack you for that. So I mention it and move on. The Disney company itself has acknowledged the problems with some of its old movies, no need for a sermon from me.


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## jegreenwood

So how much have things changed? This from the 2016 remake.


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## johnfkingmatrix

Patrick Hasselbank said:


> It is more like dixieland, time of Louis Armstrong (https://musescore.com/sheetmusic?text=louis armstrong )and of course Benny Goodman (https://musescore.com/user/28203240/scores/5040076).


omg nailed it. i looked at bennygoodmans greatest hits, its basically the old disney sound tracks. so that's called "dixieland" which is traditional jazz? and all i have to do now is research what makes dixieland dixiland, any spark notes ( :?

is it fair to say, the king louie monkey song is just these elements with some harmonic minor or something? 
thanks for help

all of the bennygoodman songs ive heard so far seem to be in a major tonality (except maybe sing sing sing ). can you point me to a few songs like this that are kind of up tempo but minor?


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