# Bruckner Symphony 7 - Artistic freedom or obscure versions?



## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

Hi everyone! New member here, but I've been reading your great forum for some time.

I've been wondering for quite some time about the climax in the Adagio of Bruckner's seventh symphony, since it seems that the timpani part seems to vary quite a bit. I have enclosed an image showing the three most distinct versions. The first one is how it is written in Nowak's score, and how it is played by most orchestras (for example Karajan with BPO or Wiener Philharmoniker). The second version is how it is played by Rattle and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, and the third is the version found on the box set with Celibidache and Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart.

Regarding versions 2 and 3, are these variations on the timpani part artistic freedom, "erronous" playing, or simply yet another version of the seventh? I have been searching for this for quite some time, but couldn't find an answer. Does anyone of you know, or have any thoughts?









Spotify links in case you want to hear it for yourself: 
Karajan & Wiener Philharmoniker (climax at 18:15)





Rattle & City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra (climax at 19:18)





Celibidache & Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart (climax at 18:06)


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I believe the Haas edition removed the Timpani altogether.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

DaveM said:


> I believe the Haas edition removed the Timpani altogether.


He did. The timpani part was not in the original version (which can be seen in manuscript on IMSLP). The timpani part was an afterthought - it's taped onto the page where it was added. The first example above is what Bruckner wrote. And that's what Nowak and Redlich used. So...how could professional orchestra players goof up? Happens all the time. You don't play those symphonies all that much, so they're a bit unfamiliar and they sure don't play themselves. To some conductors and producers it just doesn't matter; they can live with small errors like this which few listeners would ever notice. Although, Rattle is a percussionist you think he'd be more careful. But the recorded legacy is filled with orchestral flubs. Early, late, non-existent entrances, wrong rhythms, wrong notes: quite common. Musicians are only human.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Bruckner was terribly insecure and obsessively edited even his published work and then re-published it with various changes. The result of all this is that his symphonies have ended up with a number of different versions, most of which originate from the composer himself, with no version being the 'definitive' one (since Bruckner, after all, wrote them all). To add to this, Bruckner frequently gave in to other, lesser composers, suggestions for his symphonies (likely due to his insecurities) that are often of debatable musical merit. Some scholars try to determine what constitutes actual changes by Bruckner and what was probably a well-intentioned, but ultimately misguided, suggestion by one of his lesser contemporaries. All of this, as you may have guessed, leaves a royal mess when it comes to conductors deciding what version of Bruckner symphonies to play and, as a result, most Bruckner symphonies have several commonly played versions with various differences between them.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

abruckner.com lists 4 orchestral versions of the 1885 music (original Version edited by Robert Haas [1944], 1885 Version edited by Leopold Nowak [1954], 1885 Version with some Modifications by Bruckner edited by Albert Gutmann, 1885 Original Version edited by Takanobu Kawasaki) [2012]. Since someone comes along every 30-50 years and rewrites the score the cymbal crash has probably come and gone over the years.


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

In case anyone was wondering, after a little digging I've come to the conclusion that Rattle did this on purpose. All recordings I've heard of Rattle conducting Bruckner's 7th has this timpani part, and while watching different interpretations on the Berlin Philharmonics digital concert hall, the same timpanist that plays the original timpani part with Haitink plays the variation written above when Rattle is conducting. I really honour Rattle for doing that - I think it really adds to the climax of the movement.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

For me, it sounds more like Wagner and less like Bruckner with the percussion added. I prefer the more understated climax.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Bruckner's "edition problem" affects most of his symphonies. Only No. 5 is relatively free from changes due to editions.

There is a new edition of some about every 30 or 40 years: Hass in the 1930s, Nowak in the 1950s, William Carragan and others in the 2000s. Everyone likes to get into the act.

Some of them, such as the Gutmann edition 1889 of No. 4, change entire movements making it "new" music.

The cymbal crash in the adagio of No. 7 has always reminded me of the finale of Mahler Symphony No. 6 and whether there are 2 or 3 crashes the fell the hero.


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