# Japanese composers



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

As many of you may already know, I am very interested in western-style classical music from Japan.

Western "classical" music became popular in Japan in the early part of the last century. The great grandfather of popularizing classical music in Japan was the composer/conductor Kosaku Yamada (1886-1965). As a conductor, he premiered many well known works in Japan, and as a composer, he created music of very high quality and ambition.

Today, classical music is (relatively) popular in Japan, with many great composers, conductors and performers who hail from this Asain nation.

Does anyone else enjoy/find interest in the composers and "classical scene" in Japan?


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Does anyone else enjoy/find interest in the composers and "classical scene" in Japan?


Not really, but you've got to love a good piece of Kobe beef. Forget the composers, let's talk about the Wagyu cow instead!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm a vegetarian, Jtech...


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I'm a vegetarian, Jtech...


A vegetarian eh? Okay...well let's talk about Japanese composers then! 

I'll be the first to admit I know NOTHING about Japanese classical composers. I just haven't made it over that far yet.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Indeed...!

Japan is a very musical country, as it turns out. A great survey of Japanese composers in on Naxos's "Japanese Classics" series. I wonder if anyone else has sampled from this fascinating series of discs...?


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Indeed...!
> 
> Japan is a very musical country, as it turns out. A great survey of Japanese composers in on Naxos's "Japanese Classics" series. I wonder if anyone else has sampled from this fascinating series of discs...?


I haven't, but I have heard of this series. I intend on getting around to it one day, but right now Mahler's got a grapple hold on me.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

JTech82 said:


> I haven't, but I have heard of this series. I intend on getting around to it one day, but right now Mahler's got a grapple hold on me.


I cannot recommend this series enough. There is so much "new" music to discover in this series. And I must admit, I own every disc in it. (Not that there is that many to begin with.)

Mahler does tend to grab and not let go, I know...


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Indeed...!
> 
> Japan is a very musical country, as it turns out. A great survey of Japanese composers in on Naxos's "Japanese Classics" series. I wonder if anyone else has sampled from this fascinating series of discs...?


I've been looking at this label for some time, as well as the "American Classics" series of the same label (which, incidentally, Jtech, you might well be interested in; much of the "New England School" composers are very amply represented there). You've recommended a disc or two to me, I just need to get around to buying them...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I think you would enjoy most of the entries into the Japanese Classics series, Violist. Mind you, I am not extatic about all of the discs...some don't impress me too much, but for the most part, it's true musical exploration into a musical terra incognita.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> I think you would enjoy most of the entries into the Japanese Classics series, Violist. Mind you, I am not extatic about all of the discs...some don't impress me too much, but for the most part, it's true musical exploration into a musical terra incognita.


Which ones do you like he most?


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Violinist I'm well aware of the "American Classics" series on Naxos, I own several of them. I need to get some more of Alsop's Barber on Naxos.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Which ones do you like he most?


That's a very good question.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Which ones? Well, the Ifukube disc is very good, but I'm partial to that composer anyway, as he's one of my favorites!

Fumio Hayasaka's disc is excellent. His two-movement piano concerto is amazing. The first movement is dark and heavy like Rachmaninov but the second movement is light and rhythmic like something out of Roussel or Ibert. Such contrast, but the music as a whole is so good.

Also Saburo Moroi. He doesn't sound very Japanese, actually quite European. His 3rd Symphony is a great late-romantic work with great tunes and it's very well orchestrated. At times it reminds me of Mahler.

Isotaro Sugata. Quirky but genius. Also a great orchestrator.

Kosaku Yamada. The Nagauta Symphony. A true blend of east meets west. He takes a complete and intact nagauta pice and writes music "on top" of it for a western orchestra. The contrasts are so impressive, yet it melds together seamlessly.

I like quite a bit of the rest of the series too, but these ones stick out the most for me.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Well I have to extend my thanks for Tapkaara for introducing me to many composers I've never even heard of. The only one I heard of is IFukube and that's just because you talk about him a lot! 

Now if I can just expose the mad world of Langgaard to the world.


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

*I like Japanese Classics*

Yes, I also like Japanese Classics as you. My favorite composer is Ryuichi Sakamoto. May be, you know his composition score of "The Last Emperor". Espeacilly main theme. I also Joe Hisaishi. 

Also jazz music is very popular in Japan. They've got own feature of Jazz. 
By the way: Do you speak Japanese?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Enkhbat said:


> Yes, I also like Japanese Classics as you. My favorite composer is Ryuichi Sakamoto. May be, you know his composition score of "The Last Emperor". Espeacilly main theme. I also Joe Hisaishi.
> 
> Also jazz music is very popular in Japan. They've got own feature of Jazz.
> By the way: Do you speak Japanese?


I cannot say I am familiar with Sakamoto. He wrote the score for The Last Emporer? I'll have to look into that.

No, no, no...I do not speak Japanese. I took 2 semesters of it in college, but that is the extent of it. I find its grammar to be much easier than the writing!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Which ones? Well, the Ifukube disc is very good, but I'm partial to that composer anyway, as he's one of my favorites!
> 
> Fumio Hayasaka's disc is excellent. His two-movement piano concerto is amazing. The first movement is dark and heavy like Rachmaninov but the second movement is light and rhythmic like something out of Roussel or Ibert. Such contrast, but the music as a whole is so good.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks. I will include one or two of them with my next order.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I've just ordered the Ifukube and Yamada discs you recommended plus one of Hashimoto that sounds judging from the extracts on Amazon quite attractive and very easy to digest.


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

I adore Takemitsu.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> No, no, no...I do not speak Japanese. I took 2 semesters of it in college, but that is the extent of it. I find its grammar to be much easier than the writing!


I tried to learn Japanese some time ago; I think I was doing quite well overall learning the syllabaries and such... the kanji on the other hand were horrifying to me--there were just so MANY of them! I mean, they all have pictorial significance, but still. Daunting as all get out.

I haven't heard much of any Takemitsu, but I know he wrote quite the famous piece for viola, A Bird Came Down the Walk.


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

I am majored in Japanese and English. 
I agree with World Violist. Kanjis are difficult. As for me, Grammar, Listening, Speaking is OK. But reading...?! Cause, it's full with kanjis. If somebody study systematically, Kanji is not so hard. 

I've heard about composers names many times which you mentioned . Unfortunately, i haven't listened their pieces. When i listened their pieces. I'll post in here what i feel.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

jhar26 said:


> I've just ordered the Ifukube and Yamada discs you recommended plus one of Hashimoto that sounds judging from the extracts on Amazon quite attractive and very easy to digest.


I'll look forward to your thoughts on these composers!

Hashimoto is good, too. In fact, I revisted that disc just yesterday. Very attractive music, indeed!


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## EarlyCuyler (Mar 28, 2009)

I really love the music of Akira Ifukube. I've been searching for a recording of his Ballet score _Salome_ but have no luck, even online. Any ideas where I could find it?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Salome is one of my favorite scores...it features some of the most shattering/bombastic music in the repertoire, I think! It's sort of like Rimsky-Korsakov meets Shostakovich.

I believe the Hirokami/Japan Philharmonic recording is available at HMV Japan...


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## Margaret (Mar 16, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Which ones? Well, the Ifukube disc is very good, but I'm partial to that composer anyway, as he's one of my favorites!
> 
> Fumio Hayasaka's disc is excellent. His two-movement piano concerto is amazing. The first movement is dark and heavy like Rachmaninov but the second movement is light and rhythmic like something out of Roussel or Ibert. Such contrast, but the music as a whole is so good.
> 
> ...


Having -- more or less -- grown up with Japanese music I've avoided anything that combined the words Japanese + music like the plague since then. (Post-minimalist wrote a post recently which put into terms just what it is I don't like about the music. All I knew was I didn't like it.)

But your post intrigues me -- mainly with the concept that what they are NOT doing is writing Japanese music. As amazon.com sells them I'll have to check out their samples. Any full performances loaded on youtube?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Plenty of Ifukube is available on YouTube...as for the other composers, not really much at all.

No these composers are not writing "Japanese music" per se. In other words, these are not kotos and shakuhachis. They are writing for western style orchestras, though the influence of their native music does often seep in.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I have a few CD's of Takemitsu and admire them quite a bit. They are modern yet very accessible.
Now if you were to ask about Chinese composers, I would mention Tan Dun and Bright Sheng, both of whom I really like.

Jim


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I have a love/hate relationship with Takemitsu. I'm not usually one for the musical avant-garde, but every now and again, if I am in just the right mood, Takemitsu can be very enjoyable. I would agree that he is among the more accessible avant-gardists.

I saw Bright Sheng in person a few months ago. The San Diego symphony premiered a new work by him and we has in attendance for the event. It was mentioned that the San Diego Symphony will be recording a new disc of his works.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

handlebar said:


> I have a few CD's of Takemitsu and admire them quite a bit. They are modern yet very accessible.
> Now if you were to ask about Chinese composers, I would mention Tan Dun and Bright Sheng, both of whom I really like.
> 
> Jim


When I ordered those Japanese cd's Tapkaara had recommended I decided to check out some Chinese music also and ended up including three of those with my order. You can listen to some bits at Amazon










http://www.amazon.com/Chen-Yi-Momentum/dp/B0000D9PK3










http://www.amazon.co.uk/Butterfly-Lovers-Concerto-Peter-Breiner/dp/B000260QCO










http://www.amazon.com/Gu-Guanren-Sp...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240252261&sr=1-1


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Nice stuff, Jhar. I really hope this thread will raise awarnes for music from this part of the world!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Nice stuff, Jhar. I really hope this thread will raise awarnes for music from this part of the world!


Yeah, that would be awesome.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Then I think I know what my next country of interest will be. I was going for something Slavic, but with all the names and cd recommendations on this thread I think I'll skip on to this.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

JoeGreen said:


> Then I think I know what my next country of interest will be. I was going for something Slavic, but with all the names and cd recommendations on this thread I think I'll skip on to this.


In this case, Joe, get the best of both worlds (Japan and the Slavic countries) and go with Ifukube.

His music is very "slavic" sounding, sometimes "soviet" as well. After all, he studied Rimsky-Korsakov's book on orchestration as a youth.

By the way, I am the webmaster of Akira Ifukube's English website. For those who have not yet seen it: www.akiraifukube.org.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> In this case, Joe, get the best of both worlds (Japan and the Slavic countries) and go with Ifukube.
> 
> His music is very "slavic" sounding, sometimes "soviet" as well. After all, he studied Rimsky-Korsakov's book on orchestration as a youth.
> 
> By the way, I am the webmaster of Akira Ifukube's English website. For those who have not yet seen it: www.akiraifukube.org.


Alright, thanks I'll definitley check out that site.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

You know what? Out of all my years of listening and buying classical, I hadn't even thought of checking out Japanese composers... not even when I was learning Japanese. O_O; Very odd. 

WELL!~ I am going to check them out and take all of your recommendations to heart.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Edmond-Dantes said:


> You know what? Out of all my years of listening and buying classical, I hadn't even thought of checking out Japanese composers... not even when I was learning Japanese. O_O; Very odd.
> 
> WELL!~ I am going to check them out and take all of your recommendations to heart.


Japan is a surprisingly musical country...I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the amount of QUALITY music that comes from there...!

And yet another person who has leanred some Japanese...popular language, it seems!


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Hai. =D Watashi wa sukoshi wakarimasu, demo made jonzu jarimasen...

Did you guys know that the CEO(can't remember his name) of Nintendo is in a bluegrass band. lol


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, you already got me beat!

Watashi wa Ifukube Akira no ongaku ga daisuki desu yo!


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Ah, arigatou gozaimasu. ^^ Boku wa konomashii ongaku suki desu.  (I think I said that right. VERY rusty....)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think *Takametsu* is a composer who I wouldn't mind getting to know better. I've enjoyed what I've heard on the radio of his blend of East and West.

I'm not familiar with the other Japanese composers mentioned, but maybe not really interested if they simply sound like rehashes of past or current Western composers/styles. I'm more interested in composers like Takametsu or the Chinese Tan Dun, who do not simply regurgitate Western styles but actually integrate some of their indiginous culture into their music.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Ifukube is perhaps the most "ethnic" fo the composers we've mentioned. His use of pentatonic and hexagonic scales permeates his oeuvre. He has also written works from traditional instruments like the koto.

He is very much like "The Mighty Handful" Russian composers that used the western orchestra to play folk-tinged music. Ifukube is very much like this.


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## Drowning_by_numbers (May 30, 2006)

I wholeheartedly recommend any of the solo flute pieces written by Takemitsu, absolutely beautiful. Or perhaps Rain Tree Sketches II, also very beautiful. A very talented composer.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Does anybody know of any free, legal-downloading sources that I could go to to sample some of Ifukube Akira and Takemitsu's work? (I'm pretty well broke at the moment.)


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

YouTube has plenty of Ifukube. I believe Takemitsu as well.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> By the way, I am the webmaster of Akira Ifukube's English website. For those who have not yet seen it: www.akiraifukube.org.


Great job, mate. Well done!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Thanks Jhar. I am by no means a web design wiz...as you can probably gather from my site. Its layout is rather basic, but I hope the amount of rare and accurate content makes up for that.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

That's quite all right Takaara. ^^ It definitely makes up for any design short comings.

If you ever would like some help with the site or some advise on web design/hosting, feel free to ask me.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I'll keep that in mind, Edmond. Thank you!


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

No problem, thank you for the website in the first place. =D Truly informative.


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

Wow, Are you the webmaster of www.akiraifukube.com? I googled about Ifukube sama. Then I found it. It's very informative. We can find more detailed info on there.

　失礼します。
これ から　お世話になります。
クラシク　音楽が　大好きから　こちらに　意見を 共有しようと思います。


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Enkhbat said:


> Wow, Are you the webmaster of www.akiraifukube.com? I googled about Ifukube sama. Then I found it. It's very informative. We can find more detailed info on there.
> 
> 失礼します。
> これ から　お世話になります。
> クラシク　音楽が　大好きから　こちらに　意見を 共有しようと思います。


Yes, I am the webmaster of that site. ^_^


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

済みません、タプカアラわ日本語がわりますか。


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

OK, now I'm lost...!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara, you're the webmaster to this site?

http://www.akiraifukube.org/home.htm


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Tapkaara, you're the webmaster to this site?
> 
> http://www.akiraifukube.org/home.htm


Yes, I am the webmaster of AKIRAIFUKUBE.ORG.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Yes, I am the webmaster of AKIRAIFUKUBE.ORG.


I've been to that site before. That's a pretty cool site, Tapkaara! I'm looking forward to the discography page.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> I've been to that site before. That's a pretty cool site, Tapkaara! I'm looking forward to the discography page.


Th discography is a work in progress...I actually think that I'll have time to work on it this week.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

AH! Sorry, I said, "Excuse me, do you speak Japanese Tapkaara-san?"

Now, as for Enkbet, I THINK he asked whether or not you loved kurashiku's music, but I'm not sure.. I am really rusty...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

My Japanese is VERY rusty. I'd like to learn to speak it with some level of fluency one day, but we'll see.

I am otherwise pretty fascinated by Japan in general. The tea ceremony, Japan's military history, and, of course, its music.

I'm a fan of vegetarian sushi, too!


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

I adore japan. =D As a photographer, I would sell a kidney to go to japan. lol The culture is so fascinating, both historically and present day. Also, I've quite fond of (yes, and don't laugh. ^^;; ) japanese anime. 

*I can just feel me drop in the respect ladder.*


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I've just listened to Hashimoto's first symphony. It would be too much to call this a masterpiece (as the booklet claims it is), but it's nevertheless melodic, well orchestrated, very accessible and enjoyable music. I like the first two movements especially. The last movement - a theme and variations is't that impressive because those variations aren't anything special and it lasts too long. The mind wanders from time to time during this movement. The fugue that closes the work is good though. But overall this introduction to Japanese music is a positive experience and I look forward to hearing more Asian music. So - thanks Tapkaara for making us aware of this music.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Jhar, I'll look forward to your comments on the Ifukube disc.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Ah, I love "Triptyque Aborigene: I. Payses" from Ifukube. =D Very interesting. Really, the only think I can think of to describe it is "Uplifting Darkness." lol It's so... lively, and yet almost dark in a way. Like something bad is happening, but you're happy about it. ^^;;;


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I would not describe the "Payses" movement from Triptyche as "dark" at all..it's vigorous, playful music. The second movement, "Timbe" is rather dark...it describes the composer's mood after some Japanese killed a group of Ainu, who are the indigenous people of Hokkaido, Ifukube's home island.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

AH! That's right, I kind of messed up on the name. I was talking about Timbre. ^^;;

I had just listened to them both for the first time and apparently got a bit confused on the titles.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Triptyche aborigène was written in 1937 for a chamber orchestra. It is in three movements, each depicting a facet of life of Hokkaido.

Payses describes Ainu and Japanese women working vigorously during the day.

Timbe (not timbre) is the name of a cape where Japanese forces killed a group of Ainu. It is a sad, almost-dirge like movement.

Pakkai is a bubbly and fun movement, based on an Ainu drinking song.

The work is delicately but brilliantly scored. It brims with color and a few catchy tunes to boot. Very richly orchestrated for a chamber work, to be sure.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

LOL. I even spelled the movement wrong. ^^;;; Sorry. Anyways, very nice..


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

No problem Edmond, as long as you liked it!


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

I DEFINITELY like it; not only do I like Timbe(not timbre  ) , but I also like Payses.

Who would have thought that japan would have such amazing classical. LOL Not that the japanese are any different than the rest of the people in the world, just that I think of Shamisen and Jpop when I think of japanese music..


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Edmond-Dantes said:


> I DEFINITELY like it; not only do I like Timbe(not timbre  ) , but I also like Payses.
> 
> Who would have thought that japan would have such amazing classical. LOL Not that the japanese are any different than the rest of the people in the world, just that I think of Shamisen and Jpop when I think of japanese music..


Well, yeah, I think when most people think of Japanese music, they think of koto, shamisen, etc...or perhaps JPop. Again, that is the point of this thread. Japan is, all too often, overlooked as a "classical country," but truth be told, there are any number of composers, conductors and musicians of international repute who hail from this country, but it seems like people only know Toru Takemitsu and Seiji Ozawa. There is so much more to the Japanese music scene than these two talents.


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Just like in Mexico.  I didn't have a clue how many good Mexican composers there are out there..


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I am only REALLY familair with Revueltas, but damn...what a composer...! And from Mexico..who knew?


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

Edmond-Dantes said:


> AH! Sorry, I said, "Excuse me, do you speak Japanese Tapkaara-san?"
> 
> Now, as for Enkbet, I THINK he asked whether or not you loved kurashiku's music, but I'm not sure.. I am really rusty...


I mean, I really Claasical music.
Kurashiku is Classical.

I also really like Samurai character and Bushido's law. 
Especially their honesty and durability.

I'm a huge fan of Nitobe Inazo who's photo is in 5000yen of Japanese currency. He wrote a book which is called Bushido *Soul of the Japan*


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

Edmond-Dantes said:


> I adore japan. =D As a photographer, I would sell a kidney to go to japan. lol The culture is so fascinating, both historically and present day. Also, I've quite fond of (yes, and don't laugh. ^^;; ) japanese anime.
> 
> *I can just feel me drop in the respect ladder.*


Wow, sounds so cool. I also like Japanese Anime. Do you like to read or watch?

I really like Naruto, Cowboy bebop, and Samurai Champloo


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

Triptyque Aborigene is awesome. Sometimes, it sounds like Mongolian Classical Pieces.

I agree wuth you. Timbe is the darkest part of Triptyque Aborigene. When i was senior student, I studied about Japanese history at my Uni. According to the Ryugakuseino tame nihon rekishi/textbook/,Ainujins are grandparents of all Japanese. First, there was no person in Japan. Ainujins entered to Japan by its north side. 

As for me, I really like Pakkai!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I've just listened to the Ifukube disc for the first time and I like it very much. Especially that _Sinfonia Tapkaara_ is very good. If given a chance I can easily imagine it finding a substantial audience. On first hearing it seems to me that there's a certain influence of Stravinsky and minimalism in Ifukube's music but he intigrates it into his own music in interesting ways and the guy has a voice of his own. Yep - I think I like this composer. I can imagine that a truly world class orchestra and conductor could do wonders with _Sinfonia Tapkaara_ (and the _Symphonic Fantasia_ for that matter) - but his music already sounds pretty impressive on this disc as it is. _Ritmica Ostinata_ is ok, but made less of an impression on me than the two other works.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Thank you for your comments Jhar. I know that they are sincere, and I apreciate it. Sinfonia Tapkaara is universally popular; I don;t think I have ever encountered someone who did not like it. And the Symphonic Fantasia is just too much fun.

As for Ritmica, admittedly, the performance of it on this particular Naxos disc is probably the blandest on ever done. I do not like that many people here THIS recording of it for the first time, and then their opinion becomes clouded.

A much better recording of Ritmica is available on this disc, which I advertise on my site:

http://akiraifukube.org/cd_information.htm

It's also available stateside from a online shop called CD Baby.

Anyway, I am heartened that your opinion is positive...!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, he's a composer I can imagine myself buying more from in the future.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've just listened to a Naxos Cd I bought (contents below) of the orchestral works of *Takemitsu*.

My first impression is that this composer does have a unique style, although traces of Western influences (particularly Debussy & Messiaen) are discernible. However, I find that the works are very repetitive & similar. They share in common washes of orchestral colour, louder dissonant passages & a free rhapsodic form. There seems to be little motivic devolopment, and this has not been a problem for me in the music of, say, Messiaen or Varese, in Takemitsu, it seems to be a major drawback. There seems to be a lack of general coherence that would hold these works together. Unlike those other two composers, where lack of structure is an asset & quite interesting, leading to different paths & ideas, in Takemitsu it's a liability & it leads nowhere but repetition.

The only works that the above criticism does not apply to are the _3 Film Scores_, which (obviously) were written within the constraints of writing for films, so they are more concise, to the point, and the last one is (for once) in a traditional form, it's a waltz.

I will give it time, but whereas the CD's I have of Varese immediately struck me has having alot of variety, Takemitsu's music, by comparison, seems pretty bland. This doesn't really encourage me to go out and explore other Japanese composers though, I can tell you! But views of anyone who has a different insight into Takemitsu's music are welcome. Maybe I have a Euor-centric view of it all, and am missing the broad Eastern philosophical underpinnings of his music. But, generally, they just don't grab me.

These are the works on the CD (Bournemouth SO/Alsop):
_Spirit Garden 
Solitude Sonore 
3 Film Scores 
No. 1. Jose Torres: Music of Training and Rest 
No. 2. Black Rain: Funeral Music 
No. 3. Face of Another: Waltz
Dreamtime 
A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden_


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre, I agree...Takemitsu is rather repetitive. I have a love/hate relationship with him, but I don;t listen to much for reasons you aptly described in your last post.

But please, DO NOT let one bad experience prevent you from future exploration.

Ifukube, for example, sounds NOTHING like Takemitsu. Ifukube is more of a Khachaturan/Orff/Rimsky-Korskov hybrid.

Hayasaka has hints or Rachmaninov and Roussel.

Moroi has Mahler and Samuel Barber in him...perhaps some Sibelius, too.

So, Takemitsu is just one piece of the puzzle.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Andre, I agree...Takemitsu is rather repetitive....But please, DO NOT let one bad experience prevent you from future exploration...Ifukube, for example, sounds NOTHING like Takemitsu.


I am pretty flexible & I don't think I will give up with Japanese composers. The Naxos series seems to be interesting. A few months ago, I saw the Ifukube CD on sale for only $5 and regret not buying it. I kind of thought Takemitsu would be more worth checking out, since he was more mainstream & popular. I'm always willing to stretch myself a bit when listening & maybe it's an idea not to listen to the whole Takemitsu CD right through, but only listen to one or two works.

However, I think the _3 Film Scores _on the disc made it worth buying. I like works for strings (even Mantovani!) and a work for that medium has to be very bad not to appeal to me. So there has been a positive side to purchasing that CD. & I will probably search out Ifukube, to listen to the _Tapkaara Symphony _(your namesake) & finally find out what all the fuss is about. So I'm still open...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Listen to Ifukube on YouTube..there is TONS to be heard there. You can get an idea for his sound.

By the way, Takemitsu and Ifukube had sort of rivalry going. They rarely expressed admiration for each others msuic. They really are oppoosite ends of the Japanese spectrum.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

YouTube video of Tetsuji Honna conducting the final movement of Sinfonia Tapkaara. This is the Japan Philharmonic:


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## Edmond-Dantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Enkhbat said:


> Wow, sounds so cool. I also like Japanese Anime. Do you like to read or watch?
> 
> I really like Naruto, Cowboy bebop, and Samurai Champloo


I love to do both. ^^ Cowboy Bebop is probably my favorite anime/manga. ^_^ You'd REALLY like Michiko to Hatchin, as it feels a bit like a combonation of Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think that I was quick to judge *Takemitsu*. I've listened to that Naxos cd, but not all in one sitting. I think it is interesting how he seemed to have a distinct style, right from the beginning. The earliest work on the cd is _Solitude Sonore _composed in 1958, and that piece already bears hallmarks of his unique style. I think he is a bit like Varese in that he doesn't 'spoonfeed' you, he doesn't give you easily digestible tunes & melodies. In a way, you have to put the jigsaw he presents together, the listeners have to figure it out themselves.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre said:


> I think that I was quick to judge *Takemitsu*. I've listened to that Naxos cd, but not all in one sitting. I think it is interesting how he seemed to have a distinct style, right from the beginning. The earliest work on the cd is _Solitude Sonore _composed in 1958, and that piece already bears hallmarks of his unique style. I think he is a bit like Varese in that he doesn't 'spoonfeed' you, he doesn't give you easily digestible tunes & melodies. In a way, you have to put the jigsaw he presents together, the listeners have to figure it out themselves.


I completely agree with this description of Takemitsu. His style is not easy, but really should be taken in smaller chunks.

Listening to that Naxos CD in one sitting is perhaps too difficult. One probably gets more listening to the pieces individually.

By the way, Andre, a few posts up, I added a link to a video on YouTube of the final movement of Sinfonia Tapkaara. Check it out...


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Andre said:


> I think that I was quick to judge *Takemitsu*. I've listened to that Naxos cd, but not all in one sitting.


Try and get your hands on the Takemitsu's piece _All in Twilight_, for solo guitar - preferably Julian Bream's version (for whom it was written and to whom it is dedicated). It's a wonderful piece - in my opinion the greatest twentieth-century solo guitar piece.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've just listened to the *Ifukube Naxos CD*. I think it's pretty good, Ifukube had an interesting was of combining European modernist influences with Japanese folklore. I especially like _Ritmica Ostinata_, because it sounds more Japanese than the other works on the disc. Of course, Bartok had done a similar things with Hungarian folklore in his piano concertos, but Ifukube goes beyond such influences, employing quite oriental orchestral and pianistic techniques. I can understand that this performance is probably not the most idiomatic, I can imagine it being performed with perhaps a little bit more verve than on this disc.

I like _Sinfonia Tapkaara _less, as Ifukube seems to have borrowed alot from seminal modernist works like Prokofiev's _Scythian Suite (Alla & Lolly). _The orchestration and rhythms of this work sounds a little too familiar to me, alot like some of the staples of the European modernist repertoire. It is, nonetheless an enjoyable work, which will stand up to repeated listening, I am sure.

& I like film music generally, so the _Symphonic Fantasia _is pretty good, in my opinion (as it's an arrangment of material from Ifukube's film scores). Perhaps again, there are alot of repetitive rhythms, a la Carl Orff, but this seems to be a signature of Ifukube's style, for good or bad.

I've now listened to orchestral works by Takamitsu & Ifukube. I think both take a little bit getting used to, as their works seems to embody the oriental 'less is more' philosophy. I think Takamitsu's style sounds more modern than Ifukube's, though. If Ifukube was a modernist, Takamitsu was more of a post-modernist, if you like. The former seems to be more interested in rhythm, the latter more in texture.

I am generally quite happy with my purchases & this thread has informed me about these composers & encouraged me to seek them out & buy these 2 cd's. It's been worthwhile, as I like most things that go beyond the standard repertoire. I'm now thinking of getting some Chinese classical, such as the famous 'Butterfly Lovers' concerto...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Thanks for your comments on the Naxos Ifukube disc, Andre.

Takemitsu and Ifukube were very much polar opposites. They even had a mild rivalry, each thinking the other's music was not all that great.

You had a very interesting comment on the "less is more" aesthetic in their idioms. This is a fascinating comment. I agree with it completely. One would have to think that this has some sort of root in the Japanese way of thinking. In other words, is this sort of a representation on a sort of "zen simplicity" in both of their idioms?

You will notice the use of ostinato in Ifukube's music. He once explained his penchant for this technique (and I paraphrase): "I entered into a Buddhist temple where, instead of one large Buddha statue to overwhelm you with its size, there were several, smaller statues throughout. The experience of being overpowered by many smaller statues that surrounded you instead of one large one was irresistible. This is the same effect that can be had from ostinato."

Anyway, I hope that you will continue to explore the composers of Japan, Andre. And may I say to anyone in this thread who has done a little exploring into the world of Japanese composers, I hope that you have discovered and will continue to discover music that means something to you!


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## Enkhbat (Jan 28, 2009)

Edmond-Dantes said:


> I love to do both. ^^ Cowboy Bebop is probably my favorite anime/manga. ^_^ You'd REALLY like Michiko to Hatchin, as it feels a bit like a combonation of Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop.


WoW !!!!!!!!!!! \(^_^)/ [Asian Stylish] 
Sounds so cool. 
I've just known Michiko to Hatchin. Shinichirō Watanabe is great. All those are his animes. 
Can you put download link?

btw: I was very busy on these days, so that i responsed quite late. 
Sorry ma tomodachi. 
I think, it's better to open a new thread which is called "Japanese animes" in Members Chat. 
We should remember this thread. It's "Japanese Composers"

Gomen Kudasai, Tapkaara sama


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## EarlyCuyler (Mar 28, 2009)

I just bought this CD of the music of Yasushi Akutagawa,

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=73271&name_role1=1&bcorder=1&comp_id=187591

WOW Just pure unadulterated orchestral vulgarity and violence. I LOVE IT!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Oh, that is a great recording. I epecially like the Trinita sinfonica. Ellora Symphony has some brutal climaxes, too...!

It's quite rare on disc, but if you can find it, check out Akutagawa's 1st Symphony. It's a blockbuster!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tapkaara - please post your, say, top 10 cd's of Japanese classical music. I've bought a few you recommended in the past and I like them quite a bit. I could use your list for future reference.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

jhar26 said:


> Tapkaara - please post your, say, top 10 cd's of Japanese classical music. I've bought a few you recommended in the past and I like them quite a bit. I could use your list for future reference.


Hmm, this could be a little hard to do. I generally do not like list exercises in general (can there only be 10?) and some of the discs I personally have and could add to the list are expensive/rare Japanese imports, which would make them hard to get for anyone wanting to expand their Japanese music collection. Probably the most practical thing to do is recommend certain disc in the Japanese Classics series on Naxos that may tickle you. I can include one from BIS, too.

1. Ifukube - Sinfonia Tapkaara
2. Hayasaka - Piano Concerto
3. Akutagawa - Ellora Symphony
4. Moroi - Symphony no. 3
5. Oguri - Violin Concerto
6. Yamada - Nagauta Symphony
7. Sugata - Symphonic Overture
8. Takemitsu - Piano Music
9. Japanese Orchestral Favorites (Naxos compilation disc)
10. Japanese Orchestral Music (on BIS)

Titled 1 - 9 are on Naxos. ach should be easy (and cheap) to find. The BIS offering has a more modern selection of composers like Wada and Toyama. Ifukube's 1943 masterpiece Ballata Sinfonica is also on the BIS disc; this is certainly one of my favorite works by Ifukube and it's the earliest work on the disc. It is fairly easy to find online (including Amazon) and should be about mid-price.

There are composers in the Japanese Classics series on Naxos I am not impressed with. One is Ozawa (Hisato, not Seiji...Seiji was a conductor, anyway!) He writes in a very French neo-classical style, but his musical argument is so meandering and without concision I usually cannot get through a work in one listen. And Nxos has already devoted 2 discs to his works. The other is Masao Oki's dreadful Hiroshima Symphony. Monochromatic orchestration, sluggish melodies and a general lack of any drama or power. It's a boring work that just doesn't rile me.

Hope that helps!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks a lot. I already have nos.1 and 6 on your list and I like them both.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Oh, that is a great recording. I epecially like the Trinita sinfonica. Ellora Symphony has some brutal climaxes, too...!


I bought that CD about three months ago, and still haven't listened to it. I'll give it a try tonight and let you know my opinion.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Fsharpmajor said:


> I bought that CD about three months ago, and still haven't listened to it. I'll give it a try tonight and let you know my opinion.


Akutagawa was an interesting guy. He was the son of Ryonosuke Akutagawa who wrote the famous story Rashomon. Rashomon was later turned into a film by Kurosawa.

He studied with Ifukube and and developed a style that sort of combined facets of the "Soviet Sound" (ie Shostakovich and Khachaturian) and well as the rhythmic audacity of Ifukube.

He was a member of "Thee Three" which included the other composers Ikuma Dan and Toshiro Mayuzumi.

He was a proponent of making music accessible to everyone and founded the New Symphony Orchestra, a semi-professional ensemble that often sounded world class. He mad several recordings of Japanese orchestral music with this outfit a s a conductor.

He also hosted a tv show about music, again, in an effort to bring people and music closer.

Even at his most experimental, Akutagawa was fairly conservative. He often has the cheekiness of Prokofiev, the brutality of Shostakovich and the exotic lyricism of Khachaturian all rolled into one neat package.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hey Tapkaara, can you tell us about some Japanese composers, maybe on the Naxos series, who experimented with avant-garde & serial techniques. I'd be interested in this as I like those type of composers from Europe & the USA...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre said:


> Hey Tapkaara, can you tell us about some Japanese composers, maybe on the Naxos series, who experimented with avant-garde & serial techniques. I'd be interested in this as I like those type of composers from Europe & the USA...


Well Takemitus is perhaps the grand daddy of the Japanese avant-garde. You've heard the Naxos Takemitsu disc...it speaks for itself.

Hayasaka started out as a conservative nationalist like Ifukube. In fact they were close childhood friends and grew up together. As Hayasaka progressed in his short career, his music became increasingly more avant-garde. Movement in Metamorphosis for Orchestra by Hayasaka certainly sounds modernist but it is essentially a tonal with moments of ambiguity. His forchestral suite Yuukara is a flat-out serialist work, and a difficult one. This was his last composition before he died. (Hayasaka mentored Takemitsu, so no doubt Hayasaka's modernist proclivities influenced Takemitsu.)

Yoritsune Matsudaira was certainly a modernist composer but I have only heard a few works by him.

Kunihiko Hashimoto composed works in a an avant-garde vein later in his career as well, but alas, I have not heard them. I only know his earlier, more conservative works on Naxos.

Mayuzumi as did some avant-garde experimentation, but never went the way of serialism as far as I know.

I guess the long story short is most Japanese composer after WWII looked to Europe for models on what to compose. Musical nationalism was looked down upon as a relic of Japanese militarism. (Ifukube never gave up his "nationalist leanings.") Takemitsu really became the torch bearer of Japanese art music and gained the most international fame, I think, because it was he who was the most avant-garde of the lot. The weirder and more out there you could sound at the time was equal to your creativity as an artist. Or so they say.

So, many of the composers from Japan post WWII dabbled with avant-garde experiments, but no major composers did quite to the extreme levels of Takemitsu. At least as far as I know.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Looks like I'll get some more Takemitsu, as I've only heard the Naxos orchestral works cd. I'm interested in his chamber music and maybe piano music as well. If he's the most experimental, then I will explore him more. I am also interested in exploring your list above later of the "top 10," I've only heard Takemitsu & Ifukube. I'm always eager to explore other musical traditions than Europe. Living in Australia, with our many (particularly trade) connections with Asia, you'd expect that culturally we would lean towards the region as well. It's true that many Australian composers have studied the music of Asia (Meale, Sculthorpe, Conyngham) and you can hear some of that influence in some of their works, but (unfortunately) this engagement is not reflected much in concert programs, which are still predominantly Euro-centric. I'd love to hear some Ifukube or Takemitsu live but unfortunately that's not likely to happen here. Is it any different in other parts of the world? I remember reading some information Tapkaara put on this site about a concert in USA where they played Ifukube...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre said:


> Looks like I'll get some more Takemitsu, as I've only heard the Naxos orchestral works cd. I'm interested in his chamber music and maybe piano music as well. If he's the most experimental, then I will explore him more. I am also interested in exploring your list above later of the "top 10," I've only heard Takemitsu & Ifukube. I'm always eager to explore other musical traditions than Europe. Living in Australia, with our many (particularly trade) connections with Asia, you'd expect that culturally we would lean towards the region as well. It's true that many Australian composers have studied the music of Asia (Meale, Sculthorpe, Conyngham) and you can hear some of that influence in some of their works, but (unfortunately) this engagement is not reflected much in concert programs, which are still predominantly Euro-centric. I'd love to hear some Ifukube or Takemitsu live but unfortunately that's not likely to happen here. Is it any different in other parts of the world? I remember reading some information Tapkaara put on this site about a concert in USA where they played Ifukube...


Ifukube was performed in the US twice last year that I know of: the US premiere of Ritmica Ostinata was held in Kalamazoo (of all places!!) Michigan. Raymond Harvey conducted the Kalamazoo Symphony with Reiko Yamada as the soloist. Yes, I was there! You can see some photos of the performance at my Ifukube site. Look toward the bottom of this page:

http://akiraifukube.org/yamada_interview.htm

You can read a review of the concert here:

http://topics.mlive.com/tag/Akira Ifukube/index.html

I also know that Ballata Sinfonica was peformed in Lexington, Kentucky but did not attend this performance, unfortunately. A review of that performance is here:

http://copiousnotes.bloginky.com/tag/akira-ifukube/


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I remember reading those before, your interview is quite interesting & it's always good when a performer knows the composer. Well at least Takemitsu & Ifukube are getting played a bit in the USA, but it seems that elsewhere outside of Japan, they're still yet to be discovered by the majority of classical concert-goers. I also haven't heard them on the radio here lately. Despite claims of the world becoming more globalised, you would hardly know it in the world of classical, because most classical listeners are only interested in (or just aware of?) the meat and potatoes repertoire. Hopefully this will change, but it's going to take a long time, I think...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Andre... if you are looking into further works from Takemitsu I would definitely recommend these two:



















Elements of Impressionism (which certainly ties in with the Japanese tradition... in the visual arts as well as music), Modernist experimentation, and traditional Japanese music... and definitely pick up the Naxos piano works disc.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Does anyone else have this Naxos recording by Isang Yun?

*http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9860*

He's actually Korean, not Japanese. The review describes the CD quite accurately. I think people who like Japanese classical music might enjoy it.


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## ScriabinMahler (Sep 27, 2009)

Just thought id let you all know my fave japanese composers -

Somei Satoh 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Satoh-Towar...r_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261330897&sr=1-10

The 3 works on the above CD are very beatifully scored for strings with Toward the night for strings and solo cello and the hauntingly beautiful Homa for strings and wordless solo soprano. There are a few more CD's of his music but the above CD is a great introduction.

Yoshimatsu is very much a fave of mine - 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yoshimatsu-...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261331535&sr=1-3

The above CD includes the 2nd Symphony which i would say is his best symphony the 2nd movement being particularly moving and expertly scored. Yoshimatsu for me is great at orchestration, being able to bring out this twilight sky sounding music.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yoshimatsu-...=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261331535&sr=1-7

The above CD is a very good introduction to his sound world, these 2 composers should be better known, hope ive managed to persuade some people to investigate.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

ScriabinMahler said:


> Just thought id let you all know my fave japanese composers -
> 
> Somei Satoh
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Satoh-Towar...r_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261330897&sr=1-10
> ...


I'll admit I did not previously know the name Somei Sato. I sampled that Amazon snippets and it sounds nice. Sort of Barber-esque. Subdued and dreamlike. Looks like he was born in 1947 and is still living. Very interesting. His music sounds like (as much as I can glean from the clips) like it has a conservative quality that eschews the ugly/wacky sounds other wanna-be modernist Japanese composers of his generation usually would have striven for. I like him already.

Yoshimatsu is more difficult but the clips from the 2nd Symphony sound very good. His Threnody to Toki is his most famous work and I am not a big fan of it.

Glad we have yet another member who has more than dipped his toes into the art music scene in Japan. As far as the west is concerned, Japan is still very much an untapped resource.


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## ScriabinMahler (Sep 27, 2009)

Glad you like Somei Satoh, although i wouldnt say his music is conservative, as i dont believe that just because it doesnt have ugly/wacky sounds the music should be labelled as conservative. But I think i know what you were meaning. I actually find Yoshimatsu a far more melodic composer than Satoh. Satoh has a very broad body of work, almost like he wanted to try everything once. Its a pity there isnt much on youtube.


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