# Brahms or Dvorak?



## dsosin (Nov 23, 2018)

A good friend of mine insists that Brahms is nowhere near as good a composer as Dvorak; what's more he ripped Anton's ideas off. Your thoughts? Me, I'm Brahms all the way. The B major trio, the two sextets (just really got into the G major this year after decades of devotion to the Bb, the Piano Quintet and the G minor quartet in particular, also the 1st and 3rd violin sonatas. Your favorites?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have a special affinity for Brahms so I'd probably say I prefer him, but I adore both composers' works. 

You mentioned several of Brahms' works all of which are chamber pieces. I'm interested in whether you prefer the chamber works to his orchestral works. A number of TC members have mentioned, somewhat off-handedly, that Brahms' chamber works are superior to his orchestral works. I believe he excelled in both areas, but I always assumed people who like Brahms would find his orchestral works (e.g. piano and violin concertos, symphonies, serenades) to be truly first rate.

And welcome to TalkClassical.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Brahms for sure. Dvorak is a composer I generally avoid...perhaps his music is a bit of a blind spot for me. Brahms had already established himself as a first rate composer before he had listened to Dvorak's music, so your friend's point is incorrect. Was he perhaps influenced? Its possible. It is quite common for composers to take influences and use ideas from various places.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

both Brahms and Dvorak equally.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Dvorak by far. Brahms is more of a chore to listen to for me. Brahms Clarinet Quintet is my favourite work by Brahms. But even that has lost my interest in it over time.


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Brahms may very well have been a more talented composer, but my style preferences more closely align with Dvorak.

Besides the _Hungarian Dances_ (from which Dvorak actually took ideas for his _Slavonic Dances_) - to me, Dvorak's music is just more _fun_. I could listen to his symphonies, tone poems, and concertos all day. Not to mention a set of very nice string quartets.

That's not to say Brahms is worse. There are great moments in pretty much all of works, and I particularly enjoy his piano music. Solid music all around, but for me, it's just sometimes hard to stay engaged in his music than with Dvorak.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dsosin said:


> A good friend of mine insists that Brahms is nowhere near as good a composer as Dvorak; what's more he ripped Anton's ideas off.


The influence went mostly in the other direction, although Brahms was delighted with Dvorak's work and said that if he'd ever imagined a cello concerto could be as good as Dvorak's he'd have written one himself (the Double Concerto was as close as he got). Dvorak's debt to both Brahms and Wagner is easy to hear in his orchestral works and operas, but his own ebulliant spirit transcends the influence of these weighty Germans. I love both Brahms and Dvorak. They appeal to different sides of me.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

they are both great and I like both, but I probably slightly prefer Brahms


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Jacck said:


> they are both great and I like both, but I probably slightly prefer Brahms


Same here. I give Brahms a slight edge because of the solo piano works.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Same here. I give Brahms a slight edge because of the solo piano works.


About the same too, but I'd give Dvorak the edge. There are some areas where both are a bit too stodgy for my tastes - compare the German Requiem with any of Dvorak's big choral works, and both need me to be in the right frame of mind. Orchestral works, they're equal; chamber works, equal; piano works, probably Brahms; Songs, Dvorak; And I haven't heard a single Brahms opera that I have enjoyed.....


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

In what regard _isn't_ Brahms the greater of the two? Rhythm? Melody? Harmony? Form? Counterpoint?


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Improbus said:


> In what regard _isn't_ Brahms the greater of the two? Rhythm? Melody? Harmony? Form? Counterpoint?


orchestration haha 
also i would be inclined to say melody by a decent margin...
But that is just my opinion.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Improbus said:


> In what regard _isn't_ Brahms the greater of the two? Rhythm? Melody? Harmony? Form? Counterpoint?


He has a better cello concerto.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Anankasmo said:


> orchestration haha
> also i would be inclined to say melody by a decent margin...
> But that is just my opinion.


You might just be underestimating Brahms as a melodist. Here are a few compelling examples demonstrating Brahms' worth as a melodist, beyond the more obvious ones, that will perhaps change your mind:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Of course (!), Brahms is by far the greater composer. Dvorak revered him, too. I like Dvorak - mostly for his work after the age of 35 - a lot. But, really, Brahms vs Dvorak is no contest.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Symphonies:
Brahms

Concertos:
Brahms

Chamber Pieces:
Brahms

Solo Piano:
Brahms

The only area Dvorak really beat out Brahms was opera, but that's not very fair anyways...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Symphonies:
> Brahms
> 
> Concertos:
> ...


string quartet probablly too. And possibly church music, Dvořák's mass and requiem against Brahms requiem. In chamber music it is a tie, both were very strong with chamber music. Brahms wins at piano. And tone poems: Dvořák, I am not even aware of any Brahms tone poems


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Symphonies:
> Brahms
> 
> Concertos:
> ...


Generally I agree with you (not so much for the symphonies I give the Czech 1 point advantage) but you must know that Piotr and Johann were fierce enemies. (I say this assuming that you are Tchaikovsky's fan...)


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Dimace said:


> Generally I agree with you (not so much for the symphonies I give the Czech 1 point advantage) but you must know that Piotr and Johann were fierce enemies. (I say this assuming that you are Tchaikovsky's fan...)


Well, yes I am a Tchaikovsky fan (he was my favorite composer, not so much anymore though I still love him). Tchaikovsky called Brahms "a giftless *******" which is pretty harsh, not sure I agree with him.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Jacck said:


> And possibly church music, Dvořák's mass and requiem against Brahms requiem. In chamber music it is a tie.


Comparing the two, I think the addition of Brahms' motets, to me, puts him over Dvorak. Dvorak is good, but Brahms' sacred works have a depth of insight which have had more effect on me personally. And that's strange, considering Dvorak was the believer. But I get a sense from Brahms that he was reaching for something deep in his spirit, even if he didn't obtain it.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Well, yes I am a Tchaikovsky fan (he was my favorite composer, not so much anymore though I still love him). Tchaikovsky called Brahms "a giftless *******" which is pretty harsh, not sure I agree with him.


Mahler said Brahms was a mannequin. Britten also hated Brahms, calling his 1st symphony ugly and pretentious. Personally I find his orchestral music unconvincing, and feel he really was more at home with chamber music. Nietzsche also seemed to be an astute music critic, and had interesting things to say about Brahms and Wagner.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ Yes, some eminent people didn't like Brahms at all. Dvorak did not attract the same level of attention.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> Comparing the two, I think the addition of Brahms' motets, to me, puts him over Dvorak. Dvorak is good, but Brahms' sacred works have a depth of insight which have had more effect on me personally. And that's strange, considering Dvorak was the believer. But I get a sense from Brahms that he was reaching for something deep in his spirit, even if he didn't obtain it.


You're thinking of op 110?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> You're thinking of op 110?


or possibly op 74 ?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> In what regard _isn't_ Brahms the greater of the two? Rhythm? Melody? Harmony? Form? Counterpoint?


Tunefulness, freshness, fluency, spontaneity, color, _joie de vivre._

The man who envied Mozart and J. Strauss knew his own limitations.

But he's still greater than Dvorak.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> You're thinking of op 110?


Good call, both you and Jacck, both Opus 100, No. 1, and Opus 74, No. 1.

Op. 110, No. 1 had a great impact on me when I was in a personal crisis, the way that he draws assurance from the words of God to Moses in Sinai describing himself, "Merciful and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in goodness and truth."

Op. 74, No. 1 is his take on Bach's Actus Tragicus, and he goes from darkness to light, which also had an impact on me at that time.

Though not as probing, the other motets are worth hearing also.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

*Favorite Brahms*
Violin concerto 
Piano concerto #2
Symphonies 1,2 & 4

*Favorite Dvorak*
String Quartet Op96
American Suite Op. 98a
Symphonies 7,8 & 9
Czech Suite Op39
Cello Concerto

Mmmmmhhh.
It's closer than I thought it would be. I live in Florida, so in these situations, the constitution requires a complete recount with a Special Counsel overseeing the whole process. Could take a while. Stay tuned.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

For me Brahms seems to be more profound than Dvorák, and I prefer him because of this, although I love the music of both.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Tunefulness, freshness, fluency, spontaneity, color, _joie de vivre._
> 
> The man who envied Mozart and J. Strauss knew his own limitations.
> 
> But he's still greater than Dvorak.


Those limitations, to the extent they existed, were probably in the main (if not entirely) self-imposed. Listening to his Liebeslieder-Walzer, a perfect amalgamation of light and serious music, I have no idea where they are (though perhaps someone else does).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Those limitations, to the extent they existed, were probably in the main (if not entirely) self-imposed. Listening to his Liebeslieder-Walzer, a perfect amalgamation of light and serious music, I have no idea where they are (though perhaps someone else does).


Brahms did manage to write some charming light music. Since he and Strauss were friends, I can well imagine Johannes showing Johann the Liebeslieder Waltzes and hoping for a pat on the head or a scratch under the chin:

"Not bad, huh Schani?"

"Ja, ja, very pretty, Hedgehog. They make me hungry for Sachertorte and coffee with whipped cream."

"None for me. I need to lose weight."

"So does that string quintet you showed me last week."


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Considering how close of friends Brahms and Dvorak were, I imagine they both loved each other's music as much as each other. My guess is they would never have wanted to have been competitive with each other. The reverent Dvorak would probably say Brahms was better, and the self-deprecating Brahms would probably say Dvorak was better.

Personally, in general I think Brahms' music is probably more profound but Dvorak's music is more fun. I also find Dvorak's music more accessible and find myself listening to Dvorak more often. That's my preference though rather than an indication of superior works.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Olias said:


> Personally, in general I think Brahms' music is probably more profound but Dvorak's music is more fun. I also find Dvorak's music more accessible and find myself listening to Dvorak more often.


Yeah, Brahms is kind of dense and serious. I've got two symphony sets, and the concertos but I rarely listen to them. I do like the Requiem and Alto Rhapsody.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I've been listening to more Brahms in the past few months than I did in the previous few years. His symphonies and piano concertos have really been getting to me lately; I have no idea why it took so long. 

Starthrower mentioned "dense and serious". For some reason, the density is becoming more transparent for me. I can see clearly now (that's from some pop song).


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I like both a lot, especially their symphonies but I have a slight preference for Dvorak in chamber music and symphonies. However, there's very little in it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I think I'm going to buy the Neumann Dvorak set. Sounds the best to my ears. The newer cycle.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I like both now, but when I was younger I kind of hated Ein Deutsches Requiem by Brahms and the cello concerto by Dvorak (Oh...I don't listen to those.), so I didn't love them at first sight. I like the chamber music by both and Brahms 1st symphony and Dvorak's piano concerto a lot. I have several CD's by both composers.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Symphonies: I prefer Dvorak. I like all his symphonies. As for Brahms, the only symphony that completely doesn't engage me is the 2nd.

Orchestral music: Dvorak by far (tone poems, overtures, suites, etc.)

Concertos: Possibly a tie.

Chamber music: Hard, very hard. I think there is another tie.

Piano music: Brahms undoubtedly.

Vocal music: I don't know their outputs about this musical form, so I don't give any opinion.

Choral music: In this case I've listened to more works by Brahms in this form, so I choose Brahms.

All in all, I enjoy both composers. I can't live without any of them. Both belong to my pantheon of the top 10 of my all-time favorite composers.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I would say that dvorak is better than brahms .DVORAK has nine great symphonies unlike brahmes 4 symphonies.DVORAK 3 concertos i like more than brames CONCERTOS.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Woodduck is correct that the influence went the other way (from Brahms to Dvorak) -- compare the finales to their D
major symphonies -- Brahms' being the earlier. 

With the specific exception of their string quartets, I much prefer Brahms. But I like Dvorak when I'm in a Slavonic mood.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Brahms makes my top 5 composers list. Dvorak would be in the top 15. I especially like Brahms' 24 chamber works - even the gnarly string quartets.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I need to pick up a recording of the Brahms quartets. And I haven't heard any if his piano music. I have no idea what it sounds like. If it's anything like Liszt, I don't want to hear it. I don't care for the flashy grandiose style. If there's some more meditative, introspective type music I'd be interested in exploring.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I need to pick up a recording of the Brahms quartets. And I haven't heard any if his piano music. I have no idea what it sounds like. If it's anything like Liszt, I don't want to hear it. I don't care for the flashy grandiose style. If there's some more meditative, introspective type music I'd be interested in exploring.


Then it may very well appeal to you. Here's his most popular piece for the piano:


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

starthrower said:


> I need to pick up a recording of the Brahms quartets. And I haven't heard any if his piano music. I have no idea what it sounds like. If it's anything like Liszt, I don't want to hear it. I don't care for the flashy grandiose style. If there's some more meditative, introspective type music I'd be interested in exploring.


Brahms was consciously quite different from Liszt in his piano music. Brahms did not really enjoy Liszt's approach and part of the reason the Schumann's and many others in Brahms circle championed Brahms so strongly was because it was essentially considered to be music going in the opposite direction of Liszt.

In my view a good recording of the late piano pieces Op. 116-119 are more essential to have than the String Quartets. They are some of his best works, meditative and introspective are good descriptors of many of these pieces. Personally I would also take Op. 10, Op.76 and Op.79 over the String Quartets. Brahms doesn't have weak pieces but his SQs are some of his least popular works.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks for steering me in the right direction. I haven't found that much romantic piano that I enjoy. I tend to jump from Beethoven right up to Scriabin and Debussy. I've tried some Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Grieg but nothing really grabs me despite all it's romance and beauty. And I have one disc of Borodin on Brilliant Classics that is pretty decent. And like everybody I've got a few Chopin discs.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

You might like this:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I think a more "interesting" comparison for Dvorak might be with Saint-Saens or Mendelssohn or perhaps even Tchaikovsky. (Dvorak wins for the first two of those for my money and the last is very close). I'm not sure I can think of a contemporary comparison for Brahms that Brahms doesn't win easily ... except of course Wagner where the comparison is between opposites.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I think a more "interesting" comparison for Dvorak might be with Saint-Saens or Mendelssohn or perhaps even Tchaikovsky. (Dvorak wins for the first two of those for my money and the last is very close). I'm not sure I can think of a contemporary comparison for Brahms that Brahms doesn't win easily ... except of course Wagner where the comparison is between opposites.


the comparison with Brahms is the most fitting, because the two composers are VERY similar. Tchaikovsky comparision could be OK to, they are also a little similar. Mendelssohn is stylistically completely different, he is much closer to Mozart and meaningless to compare him to Dvořák. 
And these comparison are not that interesting anyway. Nothing usefull is obtained in this manner. I can waste my time arguing if plums taste better than pine-apple, but what for?


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Both Brahms and Dvořák are great, but Brahms still greater for sure. I really love both.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> You might like this:


Nice stuff, Magic! I just as soon listen to Murray as anybody else these days. Schiff is great too, but a tad too polite. Murray has a bit more muscle.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Jacck said:


> the comparison with Brahms is the most fitting, because the two composers are VERY similar. Tchaikovsky comparision could be OK to, they are also a little similar. Mendelssohn is stylistically completely different, he is much closer to Mozart and meaningless to compare him to Dvořák.
> And these comparison are not that interesting anyway. Nothing usefull is obtained in this manner. I can waste my time arguing if plums taste better than pine-apple, but what for?


OK. No problem. My feeling was that Brahms towers above Dvorak (much as I love a lot of Dvorak) so the comparison seemed a little meaningless (in the way you use the term). For me a comparison for Brahms would really have to be with the likes of Beethoven (a comparison that Brahms was conscious - and slightly in fear - of).


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Though Brahms has been consistently my favorite composer since the late 1950s, Dvorak's music has for nearly as long been a source of great fulfillment as well. With both, I have always sensed an intense love of nature linked to inspiring and noble flights of melodic expression. My two favorite works among all symphonies include one from each of them: the Brahms Third and the Dvorak Eighth. The Brahms Violin and Double Concertos and the Dvorak Cello Concerto comprise top all time choices of the concerto literature. Most enjoyable chamber compositions are three by Brahms: Piano Quartet No. 2, op. 26, String Quintet No. 1, op. 88 and Clarinet Quintet, op. 115.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The one genre in which, for me, Brahms goes right to the top of the heap - and even Beethoven is in that heap - is chamber music for piano and strings. In his violin sonatas, piano trios, piano quartets and piano quintet we have a glorious body of work in which Brahms can utter all his thoughts both intimate and heroic, and in which piano and strings seem made to play together. When the piano is missing, as in the string quartets, quintets and sextets, a degree of both splendor of sound and freedom of spirit is lost, and Brahms the earnest Teutonic workman takes over. Of course he never does less than an admirable job, whatever the assignment, but in the works for piano and strings you don't notice the labor.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Speaking of Brahms' chamber music: my favorite chamber work of his by a fair margin is the G major string sextet (sometimes called the "Agathe sextet"), one of his most inspired, perfect and personal works. It is also at the same time some of his most romantic and baroque-sounding music.

My favorite renderings are by the ensemble L'Archibudelli (period instruments) and by the Members of the Berlin Philharmonic Octet (modern instruments).


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

starthrower said:


> I need to pick up a recording of the Brahms quartets. And I haven't heard any if his piano music. I have no idea what it sounds like. If it's anything like Liszt, I don't want to hear it. I don't care for the flashy grandiose style. If there's some more meditative, introspective type music I'd be interested in exploring.





tdc said:


> Brahms was consciously quite different from Liszt in his piano music. Brahms did not really enjoy Liszt's approach and part of the reason the Schumann's and many others in Brahms circle championed Brahms so strongly was because it was essentially considered to be music going in the opposite direction of Liszt.
> 
> In my view a good recording of the late piano pieces Op. 116-119 are more essential to have than the String Quartets. They are some of his best works, meditative and introspective are good descriptors of many of these pieces. Personally I would also take Op. 10, Op.76 and Op.79 over the String Quartets. Brahms doesn't have weak pieces but his SQs are some of his least popular works.





Woodduck said:


> The one genre in which, for me, Brahms goes right to the top of the heap - and even Beethoven is in that heap - is chamber music for piano and strings. In his violin sonatas, piano trios, piano quartets and piano quintet we have a glorious body of work in which Brahms can utter all his thoughts both intimate and heroic, and in which piano and strings seem made to play together. When the piano is missing, as in the string quartets, quintets and sextets, a degree of both splendor of sound and freedom of spirit is lost, and Brahms the earnest Teutonic workman takes over. Of course he never does less than an admirable job, whatever the assignment, but in the works for piano and strings you don't notice the labor.


Agreed, Brahms was at his core a pianist, so I'd skip the string quartets (which as a form frustratingly monopolize discussions of chamber music), and go for the late piano pieces (I recommend op. 116 by Gilels and opp. 117-119 by Lupu) and the piano chamber music, a realm where he is peerless having written 16 masterpieces (1 Piano Quintet, 3 Piano Quartets, 3 Piano Trios, 1 Clarinet Trio, 1 Horn Trio, 2 Clarinet Sonatas, 2 Cello Sonatas, 3 Violin Sonatas), all 16 of which are part of the central performing repertoire -- a feat unmatched by any other composer in that arena.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pjang23 said:


> Agreed, Brahms was at his core a pianist, so I'd skip the string quartets (which as a form frustratingly monopolize discussions of chamber music), and go for the late piano pieces (I recommend op. 116 by Gilels and opp. 117-119 by Lupu) and the piano chamber music, a realm where he is peerless having written 16 masterpieces (1 Piano Quintet, 3 Piano Quartets, 3 Piano Trios, 1 Clarinet Trio, 1 Horn Trio, 2 Clarinet Sonatas, 2 Cello Sonatas, 3 Violin Sonatas), all 16 of which are part of the central performing repertoire -- a feat unmatched by any other composer in that arena.


How do you rank the clarinet quintet?


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

jegreenwood said:


> How do you rank the clarinet quintet?


One of his very best compositions altogether, and generally considered his best chamber work. As Brahms often switched up his instrumentations, it's pretty hard to group his chamber works together in a quantity comparable to say Beethoven's 16 string quartets (whereas many other composers' outputs are dominated by string quartets).

However the description "piano chamber music" forms a cohesive grouping of 16 out of 24 works with no weak points. Unfortunately such a grouping cannot include the clarinet quintet, string sextets, or string quintets, but I think it's easier than saying "everything but the string quartets".


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Brahms would be my choice though I find neither as compelling as Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Bruckner or a host of other composers. To me Dvorak is like Tchaikovsky -- a late Romantic with stories to tell. These were exciting at first but wore out their welcome over time.

Brahms is more classical, a bit less overtly late Romantic, and pays more attention to structure than emotions. I find that has longer lasting value.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> I think a more "interesting" comparison for Dvorak might be with Saint-Saens or Mendelssohn or perhaps even Tchaikovsky. (Dvorak wins for the first two of those for my money and the last is very close). I'm not sure I can think of a contemporary comparison for Brahms that Brahms doesn't win easily ... except of course Wagner where the comparison is between opposites.


I think the comparison(s) above are especially apt if we consider the long-term constancy and intensity of Brahms' musical gift. He started out with the Big Bang of his Opus #1 piano sonata and just kept going, producing, except for opera, a huge body of distinguished work in all sorts of genres, including many acknowledged masterpieces but also many of my personal favorites. The other composers that Enthusiast notes all produced many fine works but, in my opinion, cannot match Brahms' output in either quality or quantity. I am fond of many pieces by Dvořák--the Violin Concerto is world-class, and a few of the symphonies, several of the chamber works, and some of the shorter orchestral pieces are very fine. But Dvořák himself was fortunate to have Brahms as a key mentor, and likely regarded Brahms' gift as greater than his own. I also agree that Dvořák eases ahead of Saint-Saens and Mendelssohn, and that Tchaikovsky gives him a run for the money.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> I think the comparison(s) above are especially apt if we consider the long-term constancy and intensity of Brahms' musical gift. He started out with the Big Bang of his Opus #1 piano sonata and just kept going, producing, except for opera, a huge body of distinguished work in all sorts of genres, including many acknowledged masterpieces but also many of my personal favorites. The other composers that Enthusiast notes all produced many fine works but, in my opinion, cannot match Brahms' output in either quality or quantity. *I am fond of many pieces by Dvořák--the Violin Concerto is world-class*, and a few of the symphonies, several of the chamber works, and some of the shorter orchestral pieces are very fine. But Dvořák himself was fortunate to have Brahms as a key mentor, and likely regarded Brahms' gift as greater than his own. I also agree that Dvořák eases ahead of Saint-Saens and Mendelssohn, and that Tchaikovsky gives him a run for the money.


YES! A very underrated concerto.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Brahms simply has the greater output. Few compare with him in the category of chamber music. Not to mention his orchestral and vocal works. 

Everything of Dvorak's that I've heard is melodically beautiful and rich, though. Especially the Piano Quintet and Cello Concerto. He's not a composer to be overlooked.


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## APL (Oct 27, 2018)

I think they are equal. But I like much more Brahms because of his chamber music.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Yes, it IS underrated, and seldom performed. There's even one by Glazounov, in the same class. To be honest, even the Brahms' Violin Concerto can almost be a bit tedious, in certain hands (or bow arms). Szigeti and a few others excelled in the latter, but I still think there are TENDENCIES towards a certain capriciousness of tempos, from certain conductors.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> The influence went mostly in the other direction, although Brahms was delighted with Dvorak's work and said that if he'd ever imagined a cello concerto could be as good as Dvorak's he'd have written one himself (the Double Concerto was as close as he got). Dvorak's debt to both Brahms and Wagner is easy to hear in his orchestral works and operas, but his own ebulliant spirit transcends the influence of these weighty Germans. I love both Brahms and Dvorak. They appeal to different sides of me.


Which sides?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I'll go through this by genre:

Symphonies: Slight edge to Dvorak for quantity
Concertos: Significant advantage to Brahms
Overtures: Slight Edge to Brahms for quality
Serenades: Significant advantage to Brahms
Tone poems: Dvorak uncontested
Orchestrated dances: Slight edge to Brahms
Overall, dead heat in orchestral category

String Quartets: Overwhelming advantage to Dvorak
String Quintets: Slight edge to Brahms
String Sextets: Significant advantage to Brahms
Piano Trios: Slight edge to Brahms
Piano Quintet: Significant advantage to Brahms
(I don't know the rest of Dvorak's chamber music to comment on it)

Choral music: Brahms for composing the masterpiece (A German Requiem)

Operas: Dvorak uncontested

Piano works and lieder: do not know Dvorak's output enough to comment


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Red Terror said:


> Which sides?


Dvorak composed his "Czech Brahmsian" fifth symphony before Brahms even finished his First.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I haven’t heard nearly enough of both composers to compare them. But I will say that I love the fact that Dvorak’s music is so fun


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> Which sides?


The Teutonic and Slavic sides, of course. 

Ask a silly question...


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

As a staunch Brahmsian I might actually acknowledge Dvořák as the more "rounded" composer between the two. The problem I have with Dvořák is that he is too benign most of the time. There is not enough _angst_ or _sehnsucht _in his music.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> The Teutonic and Slavic sides, of course.
> 
> Ask a silly question...


I thought you might have been referring to specific qualities in each composer's work that appealed to different sides of your personality.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

To me, Dvorak's work seems more fully and naturally realized than Brahm's, which can sometimes sound a bit labored and overwrought. In relation to the latter, I am quite sure Dvorak's slightly dimer star has nothing to do with the quality of his work but his nationality. Anyway, they’re both two of greatest composers ever, so whatever ‘flaws’ one may perceive are quite inconsequential.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> The Teutonic and Slavic sides, of course.
> 
> Ask a silly question...


Well, pardon me Herr Woodduck.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

It's Brahms *and *Dvorak for me. Thankfully, I don't have to choose one or the other.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> Well, pardon me Herr Woodduck.


But of course, Sir Terror.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> I thought you might have been referring to specific qualities in each composer's work that appealed to different sides of your personality.


Ah... When I'm feeling less old and tired I'll think about that.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> It's Brahms *and *Dvorak for me. Thankfully, I don't have to choose one or the other.


I am always glad seeing an answer like this in al the discussions, I also love both,


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Red Terror said:


> To me, Dvorak's work seems more fully and naturally realized than Brahm's, which can sometimes sound a bit labored and overwrought. In relation to the latter, I am quite sure Dvorak's slightly dimer star has nothing to do with the quality of his work but his nationality.


That's wrong in several kinds of ways. If anything, Dvorak's nationality should make him more famous as preeminent composer of his country who in his time only had his contemporary Smetana as competition, not a parade of giants since Schütz and Bach.
Dvorak was also "beyond" the factions within German musical culture with the "Neudeutsche" hating on Brahms, and maybe Brahms being in fact slightly inhibited by accepting and conforming to the rôle of conservative upholder of tradition. (His early piano sonatas and the first piano concerto are more unruly and for the 1850s also more obviously daring than many of his later works.)


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I like them both for different reasons...


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Banana.


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## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

Both are big favorites, with slight edge to Brahms.

Symphony: Dvorak
Concerto: Brahms
Other Orchestral: Tie
Sextet: Brahms
Piano Quintet: Tie
String Quintet: Dvorak
Piano Quartet: Brahms
String Quartet: Dvorak
Piano Trio: Dvorak
Violin Sonata: Brahms
Cello Sonata: Brahms
Other Chamber: Tie
Solo Piano: Brahms


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I have to give Brahms the advantage. IMHO, the two composers are fairly equal for chamber/orchestral/vocal music, but Brahms easily surpasses Dvorak in solo piano music.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is no significant solo piano music by Dvorak, so this is not really a contest, not quite as easy to decide as with their operas (one could treat "Rinaldo" as quasi-opera ) but almost...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

In my subjective view, there's too much a fuss in classical music about how many genres a composer wrote for. It's really not that big a deal if you think "I would trade the output of composer A (in the genres X and Y) for that of composer B (in the genre X) and composer C (in the genre Y) any day, there's so much music to listen to other than A anyway." Or "why would I even need to listen to both genres anyway? Works of different genres from the same composer don't always necessarily lead to greater variety for me."
For example, in the 18th century, different genres can employ similar techniques. In a lot of cases, the instrumental solo/chamber sonata just has a more intimate setting than the symphony, the approach the composition can be quite similar in terms of part-writing. I think it was BWV1080 who said that the facility at improvisation enabled the composers to churn out so much music in genres like them; I have to agree.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Dvorak is in my top 10, but Brahms is in my top 5. While I’ll give Dvorak the nod in string quartets, I think Brahms sweeps all other chamber music categories. And the clarinet works 😍


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Both.


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## Snowfall (7 mo ago)

dsosin said:


> A good friend of mine insists that Brahms is nowhere near as good a composer as Dvorak; what's more he ripped Anton's ideas off. Your thoughts? Me, I'm Brahms all the way. The B major trio, the two sextets (just really got into the G major this year after decades of devotion to the Bb, the Piano Quintet and the G minor quartet in particular, also the 1st and 3rd violin sonatas. Your favorites?


I would have to pick Brahms over Dvorak, yet I can’t say I’m well versed in either composer - mostly familiar with their extremely famous symphonies and concertos. I enjoy variety of themes and harmony Brahms can methodically switch between in his symphonies (1 and 4 come to mind) , but Dvorak can create better soundscapes (cello concerto and Mvt 2 of new world).


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