# Bruckner v Brahms (symphonies)



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry if this had been done before, I did a search and couldn't find anything. So, who's symphonies do you prefer? Personally, I find this very difficult as they are both ruddy good at writing symphonies, but if I had to choose it would be Bruckner, by a slither.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

It depends on what opioid I have been taking.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

arpeggio said:


> It depends on what opioid I have been taking.


How about codeine?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Brahms being Brahms he doesn't waste a note especially as he was well into his creative maturity when he first tackled the form but I've always preferred the monumentalism of Bruckner's symphonies from no.2 onwards however wayward and rambling he may seem to have been in places.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For consistency in extremely high quality, the Brahms symphonies are impossible to beat (only Sibelius comes close to my taste).

On the other hand, I prefer Bruckner's 9th (3 movement version) over any Brahms symphony. Bruckner 8 is on the same level as Brahms 1-4, and Bruckner 4 comes close. Throw in 6-8 more Bruckner symphonies (several quite worthwhile) and the scale tips in his favour.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I quite like the powerful ending to Bruckner's 6th 1st movement. 7-9 are almost dream like symphonies and all seem to merge into one, which I find is a good thing. That wonderful climax in the 9th 3rd movement always reminds me of someone heading to a cliff edge and jumping into an abyss. The movement then tails off (similar to Tchaikovsky's 6th) as if the jumper is slowly dying from their injuries. I don't think a 4th movement is really necessary after all that.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Brahms for me, by a country mile. Bruckner's symphonies interest me but Brahms' symphonies delight me.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, Brahms is great, and I can't seem to collect enough of his symphony cycles, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd have to tell Brahms buh-bye.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Brahms for me, without the slightest doubt.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'm completely baffled by the preferences for Bruckner. As the other thread showed though there's no arguing about tastes. I find Bruckner's music so unutterably boring, stiff and just a wall of noise that I can't imagine anyone sitting down to listen deliberately.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Brahms by far. The second and fourth symphonies alone I would actually trade for all the Bruckner symphonies. Now add 1 and 3- and it's not contest. Sorry Bruckner...


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'm completely baffled by the preferences for Bruckner. As the other thread showed though there's no arguing about tastes. I find Bruckner's music so unutterably boring, stiff and just a wall of noise that I can't imagine anyone sitting down to listen deliberately.


I do sit and listen to it deliberately. some people of different way of thinking find me boring. I think it's due to Bruckner, his music influenced me


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

The only Brahms symphony that I consider nearly as good as Bruckner's best is the 4th.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

eugeneonagain said:


> [...] just a wall of noise [...]


Just... curious.
Which recordings/performances do you know/have?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Brahms is my favorite composer, but I know Bruckner's far better (I started in with Brahms via his chamber music, Requiem, and concertos. I have only recently become acquainted with his symphonies. I love Bruckner's 8 and 9 and enjoy many others. So even though I'd vote for Brahms in a composer battle, for now I would take Bruckner symphonies over Brahms


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Marc said:


> Just... curious.
> Which recordings/performances do you know/have?


I don't think it makes a difference. I can tell you now that I no longer have any physical recordings of Bruckner. I tried, more than once, but life is too short. Years back I inherited a pile of CDs and also some vinyl with Bruckner's music (some dedicated, some compilations), but they went to the charity shops ages ago.

To be honest, I'm not a great Brahms fan either, but I like some of his music and I still have CD's of it: his late piano music is one of my best CDs.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

eugeneonagain said:


> I don't think it makes a difference. I can tell you now that I no longer have any physical recordings of Bruckner. I tried, more than once, but life is too short. Years back I inherited a pile of CDs and also some vinyl with Bruckner's music (some dedicated, some compilations), but they went to the charity shops ages ago.
> 
> To be honest, I'm not a great Brahms fan either, but I like some of his music and I still have CD's of it: his late piano music is one of my best CDs.


I was only curious, because I do not know of any Bruckner symphony that is 'just a wall of noise'.
Right now I'm listening to his 2nd symphony (a couple of minutes into the 2nd movement), and it's just utterly beautiful, no wall of noise noticeable whatsoever.
IMO, Bruckner kinda 'treated' the orchestra as a large organ, but even large organs can sound very soft and lyrical.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'm completely baffled by the preferences for Bruckner. As the other thread showed though there's no arguing about tastes. I find Bruckner's music so unutterably boring, stiff and just a wall of noise that I can't imagine anyone sitting down to listen deliberately.


You are correct. All of us who listen to Bruckner sit down to listen to his music inadvertently. For example, I meant to put in some Dubussy the other day but accidentally picked up Bruckner's 6th symphony. Well, being lazy I didn't feel like getting up from my chair to change the CD so I ended up listening to the whole symphony.

By the way, I believe Bruckner's "wall" of sound influenced Pink Floyd in the naming of their album The Wall. If you listen to Another Brick in the Wall backwards, you'll hear Bruckner.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Brahms for me but it's really close.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You are correct. All of us who listen to Bruckner sit down to listen to his music inadvertently. For example, I meant to put in some Dubussy the other day but accidentally picked up Bruckner's 6th symphony. Well, being lazy I didn't feel like getting up from my chair to change the CD so I ended up listening to the whole symphony.
> 
> By the way, I believe Bruckner's "wall" of sound influenced Pink Floyd in the naming of their album The Wall. If you listen to Another Brick in the Wall backwards, you'll hear Bruckner.


Very amusing. Though I'm sure that way you described is the only way Bruckner would ever end up in my CD player.

I thought you were going to relate 'Wall of Sound' to Phil Spector's production technique, but you said Pink Floyd instead. It actually wouldn't surprise me if Bruckner's music really could be heard in Pink Floyd played backwards. They are also overrated. Best that they are both contained in one album so I can avoid them in one fell swoop.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You are correct. All of us who listen to Bruckner sit down to listen to his music inadvertently. For example, I meant to put in some Dubussy the other day but accidentally picked up Bruckner's 6th symphony. Well, being lazy I didn't feel like getting up from my chair to change the CD so I ended up listening to the whole symphony.
> 
> By the way, I believe Bruckner's "wall" of sound influenced Pink Floyd in the naming of their album The Wall. If you listen to *Another Brick in the Wall *backwards, you'll hear Bruckner.


You know, of course, that the original title for that song was Another Bruck in the Wall.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> [...] If you listen to Another Brick in the Wall backwards, you'll hear Bruckner.


And you'll also hear Another Proof that Paul McCartney already died in 1966.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Brahms for me, by a country mile. Bruckner's symphonies interest me but Brahms' symphonies delight me.


Though I love all of Brahms' Symphonies, there are three of Bruckner I do like: 7, 8 and 5.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would usually reach for a Brahms symphony over one by Bruckner.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Brahms. All four are masterpieces. 

Though with just over twice as many symphonies as Brahms, and with 7, 8, 9 and 4 all at or near the same quality -- well ... maybe Bruckner then? Tougher choice then I realized before I started typing that last sentence.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

All of Brahms, some of Bruckner. That's it for me.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I love Bruckner's 1st symphony. It was the symphony I listened to after the 4th and it blew me away at the time and still does but to a slightly lesser degree. I enjoy the bombastic finale especially the final 2 or 3 minutes. I know the 1st doesn't get much attention but I would put it in a top 40 list of great symphonies. There is a passage in the 1st movement that sounds like the music to Star Wars, well it does for me anyway.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Brahms without the slightest hesitation. It's not that I don't like Bruckner's music, I am physically repulsed by it.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bruckner for me easily. Brahms' symphonies may be better constructed, but lack the musical catharsis that Bruckner's offer. I've heard Brahms plays it 'safe', and would tend to agree.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> For consistency in extremely high quality, the Brahms symphonies are impossible to beat (only Sibelius comes close to my taste).
> 
> On the other hand, I prefer Bruckner's 9th (3 movement version) over any Brahms symphony. Bruckner 8 is on the same level as Brahms 1-4, and Bruckner 4 comes close. Throw in 6-8 more Bruckner symphonies (several quite worthwhile) and the scale tips in his favour.


For me, it also depends on which Bruckner symphonies are being played. I might pick Bruckner's 8th and 5th over Brahms (maybe Bruckner's 4th too, but that's more debatable), but otherwise I would go with Brahms. I'd also say that my appreciation for Bruckner is more performer dependent than it is for most composers. Wand's Bruckner sounds great to me, but many performances by others just sound so mediocre to me.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Overall, I prefer Brahms, but for just the symphonies I'll go with Bruckner. The Brahms symphonies have never appealed much to me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I find the four Brahms symphonies more inspiring then the whole Bruckner cycle, but that's just my 2 cents.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Brahms is one of my favourite composers in the highest tier, but I'm lukewarm on his symphonies... and I'm a Bruckner maniac. I'll take any Bruckner symphony over any Brahms symphony.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I say brahms symphonies are the best today.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bruckner his symphonies are the most beautiful I know of.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I would have to go with Brahms, I do like Bruckner but they seem to be extended crescendos.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I must have both. Brahms is certainly more accessible and popular worldwide, due to the economical and developmental writing style he pursued, the genres in which he prominent, and the attractive melodies he created. Obviously, he will be the winner in the post or any where else.

While Bruckner's influence is largely confined in Austro-German regions (accroding to Furtwangler), and is not well accepted in countries like the U.S. and Britain. Despite all the blames on Bruckner's writing, his music has its own merits to be appreciated. Although with a heavy influence of Wagner, his music gives a special sense of purity, profundity and dignity that we can find no where else in the repertoire. But one has to really dive into his spiritual world and put everything else aside to taste and accept it. The complexity, stability and ambiguity (or redundancy to some critics) of his musical language probably result from his social experience, and over-modest characteristic. Sadly, these are largely misunderstood and being attacked. Nowadays, the natures of his music are more or less against the trend of modern cultures and arts, making his music to get more criticism than appreciation. 

After the Wagner vs Brahms, Bruckner's music is likely to suffer another cultural conflict. This time, he himself has nothing to lose. Only we are burying the treasures he left.


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

Wand’s Bruckner > Brahms > Bruckner.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Bruckner 4 & 6 > Brahms ~ rest of Bruckner


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Personal opinion: Brahms' symphonies move crisply; Bruckner's barely move at all.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

My feeling is that in his symphonies Brahms wrote 4 masterpieces.

Bruckner was seeking to write 1 masterpiece, and each symphony was part of that attempt, never quite succeeding. In that sense it is no surprise that number 9 was unfinished, as he was still pursuing that goal.

I very much enjoy 6-9, but each one of them contains elements which I find less persuasive then the rest, and a masterpiece should not really have a low point within it.

Hence, Brahms for me by a long way.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

This question is easy for me because I don't think Bruckner was a good composer. I find each of Brahms' symphonies better than any of Bruckner's.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

"In the strife between the Brahms and Bruckner factions in Vienna I was once asked my opinion of the two men. I replied that I wished that nature had given us one master in whom the characteristics of both composers were united, - the monstrous imagination of Bruckner with the possibilities of Brahms. That would have given once more a great artist".

---Felix Weingartner, _Die Symphonie nach Beethoven_ (1898)


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I love both but I love Brahms more. In fact, I can't think of any other composer's best 4 symphonies that I like more than the Brahms 4. My top 3 symphony composers are Brahms, Beethoven and Sibelius, in no particular order.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Of the two, I think Bruckner gets the edge. I get more spiritually from Bruckner. Brahms speaks more to my head; I constantly walk away from hearing his symphonies with earworms.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I like the Bruckner 8th more than any Brahms symphony, but I like all four Brahms symphonies more than any Bruckner symphony except the 8th. 

So my conclusion is that Brahms was more consistent, but Bruckner was more inspired. And in the case of the 8th he hit a home run. My favorite all time symphony alongside the equally monumental Beethoven and Mahler 9ths.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Brahms by galaxies over Bruckner. I love Bruckner's 7th and 9th Symphonies, but Brahms is arguably the second greatest composer of symphonic music. I would take Brahms 4th over all Bruckner's symphonies combined, and Brahms' 1st-3rd symphonies aren't far behind. I'm not bashing Bruckner; I like him and respect your opinions, but I just think Brahms is on another level or tier.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Bruckner. Three of his symphonies (7, 8, 9) are in my top ten symphonies. Only one of Brahms barely makes it in my top ten-- Symphony No. 4 (which also works well in a two-piano arrangement).

Favorite recordings:
Brahms 4: Abbado, Klemperer, Kleiber
Bruckner 7: Karajan
Bruckner 8: Karajan
Bruckner 9: Celibidache


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I am still slightly with Brahms but...


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Comparing two geats has always been problematic. Anyway Brahms's chamber music is second to none and you just need to listen to his second piano concerto to fall in love with hismusic. On the other hand, Bruckner is the greatest symphonist after Ludwig van.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

It's hard for me to compare the two. Bruckner is lush, bombastic, long-winded, super-religious, even fanatical, and really over-the top. The only two symphonies I listen to anymore by Bruckner are 8 and 9, and I like them a lot. Brahms, on the hand (and others here have already indicated as much) has the better symphonic cycle. He's Romantic and all, and very heart-felt underneath all the layers of thickness, but despite the layers and the thickness Brahms has a sense of order in the Classical sense. I think of Brahms' music as a fine old and sturdy German clock, with beautiful intricate wood-working. Brahms' has a wonderful sense of craftsmanship. 

It's not really an answer to the question, but I'm sure it answers something.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Coach G said:


> It's hard for me to compare the two. Bruckner is lush, bombastic, long-winded, *super-religious, even fanatical,* and really over-the top. The only two symphonies I listen to anymore by Bruckner are 8 and 9, and I like them a lot. Brahms, on the hand (and others here have already indicated as much) has the better symphonic cycle. He's Romantic and all, and very heart-felt underneath all the layers of thickness, but despite the layers and the thickness Brahms has a sense of order in the Classical sense. I think of Brahms' music as a fine old and sturdy German clock, with beautiful intricate wood-working. Brahms' has a wonderful sense of craftsmanship.
> 
> It's not really an answer to the question, but I'm sure it answers something.


Oper religious? Even fanatical? We are talking of orchestral music here. How on earth can that be fanatical?


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Brahms is a great symphonist, no doubt. I like his Symphonies (although I prefer his Chamber music instead) but I could live without them if I had to chose between his and Bruckner's.
Bruckner is a great symphonist too and I absolutely couldn't live without his Symphonies (from 4 and above), especially *4*, *7*, *8* and maybe *9*.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

All the Brahms symphonies are equal in my estimation and are probably my favorite symphonic body of work in the literature. Bruckner 7,8,9 is possibly, on the other hand, my favorite symphonic trifecta of all but I run hot and cold on 1-6 (though I love 4 and 6). The prospect of choosing between those four delectable Brahms symphonies and three epic Bruckner masterpieces is too much to bear. Thank goodness desert islands are but hypothetical conjectures, and these TC polls are but amusing thought experiments.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

While my enjoyment of the Brahms Symphonies has never waned since my initial posting over three years ago, I've reached a greater level of satisfaction with Bruckner's 7th, 8th and 9th Symphonies in their own right, especially the composer's last.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

I'm going to have to listen to some Bruckner symphonies again, to remind myself why my first thought was: *Brahms*; but if I'm sent to Hell to suffer in the afterlife, then a desert island and any of Bruckner's symphonies will do.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I love all four of Brahms' symphonies. I don't want to live without any one of them.
My four favourite Bruckner symphonies are 4, 6, 7 and 9. I would take Brahms' four over these four Bruckner ones. When you add the rest of Bruckner's symphonies, it gets close, very close, but I'd still choose Brahms.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Re: Bruckner



DavidA said:


> Oper religious? Even fanatical? We are talking of orchestral music here. How on earth can that be fanatical?


While it's difficult enough to describe feeling in general, it's even more difficult to describe feelings that we might ascribe to orchestral and abstract sounds. Sometimes we read too much of what we want to read into the music because of context. Did Sibelius really mean to depict the icy north, clear lakes, powerful trees and mountains, in his symphonies, or am I assuming based upon what I see on the album cover? Was Shostakovich really being ironic and sarcastic in his symphonies, or is it all just Soviet propaganda plain and simple? Is Mahler's music neurotic in the symphonies or does he just sound that way because he rambles on so much, and has so many emotional ups and downs throughout, almost like a free-association that Sigmund Freud was talking about during the same time when both he and Mahler lived and worked in Vienna?

When I listen to one of Bruckner's symphonies, I see the composer trying to recreate heavenly bliss in the long, long, slow movements. In the bombastic ramblings, I see him trying to create a massive cathedral of sound. In the 8th which along with the 9th, is my favorite Bruckner symphony, I see the composer building a symphony of heavenly length...

...or maybe I'm just reading what I want to read into the music.


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