# Fastest Liszt Sonata?



## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

How's it going, fellas?

I've been wondering, what's the fastest recording of the Sonata? Now, if the word 'fast' is too vague, I hope this gives you some perspective:

If *THIS* is the normal tempo that a composer has chosen for (what I'd considered to be) a boring piece, I would want it to be played like *THIS*.

Also, I wish pianists didn't get so sentimental as soon as they get the chance to do so. Perhaps, then, the bigger picture of what I'm looking for is not just a fast recording, but rather an indifferent one, played as humorously and irreverently as possible.

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Dodecaplex said:


> How's it going, fellas?
> 
> I've been wondering, what's the fastest recording of the Sonata? Now, if the word 'fast' is too vague, I hope this gives you some perspective:
> 
> ...


You wait til Lisztian reads this!


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

moody said:


> You wait til Lisztian reads this!


Yes, I am waiting for Lisztian. I'm pretty certain he would know the fastest recording.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I have 35 recordings of it, Leslie Howard's is the fastest clocking in somewhere between 23 and 24 minutes if I remember correctly


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> I have 35 recordings of it, Leslie Howard's is the fastest clocking in somewhere between 23 and 24 minutes if I remember correctly


Yes, what he said. Pretty...telling? That the pre-eminant Liszt pianist/scholar has the fastest recording, and one that is around 6-7 minutes faster than the norm. I personally am not too fond of it - I prefer the more romantic, 'sentimentalized' recordings myself  But Leslie would be one to look into for you, I think. Personally, Zimerman is my preferred recording.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> I have 35 recordings of it, Leslie Howard's is the fastest clocking in somewhere between 23 and 24 minutes if I remember correctly


Very nice. Thank you.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Yes, what he said. Pretty...telling? That the pre-eminant Liszt pianist/scholar has the fastest recording, and one that is around 6-7 minutes faster than the norm. I personally am not too fond of it - I prefer the more romantic, 'sentimentalized' recordings myself  But Leslie would be one to look into for you, I think. Personally, Zimerman is my preferred recording.


It seems Howard has the perfect understanding of music, like a sage who has encountered too many children and who is now re-educating us melomanes. A true genius, if you ask me.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Dodecaplex said:


> It seems Howard has the perfect understanding of music, like a sage who has encountered too many children and who is now re-educating us melomanes. A true genius, if you ask me.


I would agree he has an unsurpassed understanding of the music...I don't think he is always able to transfer that understanding into the best playing, however. There are some exceptions though.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> I would agree he has an unsurpassed understanding of the music...I don't think he is always able to transfer that understanding into the best playing, however. There are some exceptions though.


There was a film that came out in 1960, a biopic about Liszt, it's title was "Song Without End ". Jorge Bolet played the soundtrack , at the same time he recorded the sonata for Everest., It's been disappeared for ages but now it is available on Alto with hje Mephisto Waltz and the two Concerti , these are Vox recordings with the Rochester Orch./Zinman. The Mephisto is also Everest.The sonata performance is terrific and not too fast!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> There was a film that came out in 1960, a biopic about Liszt, it's title was "Song Without End ". Jorge Bolet played the soundtrack , at the same time he recorded the sonata for Everest., It's been disappeared for ages but now it is available on Alto with hje Mephisto Waltz and the two Concerti , these are Vox recordings with the Rochester Orch./Zinman. The Mephisto is also Everest.The sonata performance is terrific and not too fast!


Around that time Bolet was at the top of his game. Alto, eh?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

moody said:


> There was a film that came out in 1960, a biopic about Liszt, it's title was "Song Without End ". Jorge Bolet played the soundtrack , at the same time he recorded the sonata for Everest., It's been disappeared for ages but now it is available on Alto with hje Mephisto Waltz and the two Concerti , these are Vox recordings with the Rochester Orch./Zinman. The Mephisto is also Everest.The sonata performance is terrific and not too fast!


Interesting. I had one of his recordings of the Sonata and it was VERY good...I think it was a later one though than the one you mentioned. I should look into it. Bolet is one of my favorites with Liszt. I believe I read in a pianist book however that he got criticized a lot for his playing on that film? Maybe i'm wrong, I can't remember.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Interesting. I had one of his recordings of the Sonata and it was VERY good...I think it was a later one though than the one you mentioned. I should look into it. Bolet is one of my favorites with Liszt. I believe I read in a pianist book however that he got criticized a lot for his playing on that film? Maybe i'm wrong, I can't remember.


No, as our friend above has said he was at his peak at this time. You should also look out for the recordings he made for Ensayo, they are available now. His last recordings for British Decca showed health problems but not the stuff I'm speaking of hear. By the way the fastest performance of the sonata was by the Russian pianist Simon Barere ,but then he was a virtuoso that has never before been seen and probably never will be again. I have him doing it live ,in fact most of his few recordings are live because the record companies shamefully hardly recorded him. He collapsed and died when giving a concert with the Phladelphia Orchestra in Carnegie hall--he was just 55.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

moody said:


> No, as our friend above has said he was at his peak at this time. You should also look out for the recordings he made for Ensayo, they are available now. His last recordings for British Decca showed health problems but not the stuff I'm speaking of hear. By the way the fastest performance of the sonata was by the Russian pianist Simon Barere ,but then he was a virtuoso that has never before been seen and probably never will be again. I have him doing it live ,in fact most of his few recordings are live because the record companies shamefully hardly recorded him. He collapsed and died when giving a concert with the Phladelphia Orchestra in Carnegie hall--he was just 55.


Oh wow, I hadn't heard of him. What time did he clock in at? I'll look into him, too. He died while giving a concert? Wow, that would have been quite the scene.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Oh wow, I hadn't heard of him. What time did he clock in at? I'll look into him, too. He died while giving a concert? Wow, that would have been quite the scene.


Does clock in mean timing of the piece--if so it says 27 mins, if somebody does it in 23 I would say that's pretty ridiculous. The Bolet Everest version is 27.3, good heavens Cortot does it in 23! But you must remember that Dodecaplex was being facetious in his opening statement, what you want is the fast bits fast and the slow bits slow--which is a monumental simplification. Harold C. Schonberg said of Barere; "Barere was a virtuoso plus ..startling for speed accuracy and disregard of difficulties .The harder the piece the more he revelled in it and the faster he played it ".


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

moody said:


> Does clock in mean timing of the piece--if so it says 27 mins, if somebody does it in 23 I would say that's pretty ridiculous. The Bolet Everest version is 27.3, good heavens Cortot does it in 23! But you must remember that Dodecaplex was being facetious in his opening statement, what you want is the fast bits fast and the slow bits slow--which is a monumental simplification. Harold C. Schonberg said of Barere; "Barere was a virtuoso plus ..startling for speed accuracy and disregard of difficulties .The harder the piece the more he revelled in it and the faster he played it ".


Cortot at 23 is mind boggling. My favourite recording (as I mentioned, Zimerman) does it in almost 31 minutes. I do however remember reading somewhere a quote that any good performance of the Liszt sonata should be under 28 minutes or something to that effect. Have you heard that too?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Cortot at 23 is mind boggling. My favourite recording (as I mentioned, Zimerman) does it in almost 31 minutes. I do however remember reading somewhere a quote that any good performance of the Liszt sonata should be under 28 minutes or something to that effect. Have you heard that too?


No, but it's really up to the individual artist and then we can judge the affect it has on us.I think from recent listening that this Bolet performsnce was a pretty good tempo. But you read music don't you ?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

moody said:


> No, but it's really up to the individual artist and then we can judge the affect it has on us.I think from recent listening that this Bolet performsnce was a pretty good tempo. But you read music don't you ?


Oh yes, I know that, I just thought it was an interesting quote when I read it, because most of my favourite performances tended to be around or above that time. This is a very interesting thread actually because there does seem to be quite a debate about the tempo of this piece. Yeah I do read music.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

moody said:


> Does clock in mean timing of the piece--if so it says 27 mins, if somebody does it in 23 I would say that's pretty ridiculous. The Bolet Everest version is 27.3, good heavens Cortot does it in 23! But you must remember that Dodecaplex was being facetious in his opening statement, what you want is the fast bits fast and the slow bits slow--which is a monumental simplification. Harold C. Schonberg said of Barere; "Barere was a virtuoso plus ..startling for speed accuracy and disregard of difficulties .The harder the piece the more he revelled in it and the faster he played it ".


I'll definitely look into Cortot's recording as well then. By the way, I wanted a facetious recording, yes, but I wasn't being facetious myself. Or perhaps I was. I don't know. But thanks!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> No, as our friend above has said he was at his peak at this time. You should also look out for the recordings he made for Ensayo, they are available now. His last recordings for British Decca showed health problems but not the stuff I'm speaking of hear. By the way the fastest performance of the sonata was by the Russian pianist Simon Barere ,but then he was a virtuoso that has never before been seen and probably never will be again. I have him doing it live ,in fact most of his few recordings are live because the record companies shamefully hardly recorded him. He collapsed and died when giving a concert with the Phladelphia Orchestra in Carnegie hall--he was just 55.


<< Simon Barere was a super artist and loved the [Schumann] Toccata. He played it faster than anyone has ever played it. At least part of the reason may have been to fit in on one side of the records of the day. Still, Dubal told of speaking to Horowitz about the Toccata. He complimented Horowitz on his two, very different recordings of the work, then mentioned Barere. Horowitz said he had gone back stage after hearing Barere perform the Toccata and asked him, "don't you think that was a little...uh..fast?" Barere exclaimed, "What do you mean fast?! I can play it faster!!!"

There's a recording of Barere playing the Toccata on APR records. It is hard to believe anyone could play it faster. It is unbelievable. >>


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Lisztian said:


> Oh yes, I know that, I just thought it was an interesting quote when I read it, because most of my favourite performances tended to be around or above that time. This is a very interesting thread actually because there does seem to be quite a debate about the tempo of this piece. Yeah I do read music.


I think we've gone up a sidetrail here, it doesn't matter so much exactly what speed it goes at but what the effect on the listener might be. When I asked whether you read music it was because surely there must be some indication of what Schlitz actually wanted? I went to a Bolet recital at Goldsmiths' Hall in London arranged by a club I belonged to at the time. Yiou can imagine the surroundings I'm sure, anyway we were half way though the sonata when suddenly I thought ;" He's going round in circles here! " Bolet stopped stood up, apologised and started over again. So you see, even the best can go wrong, it gives us all hope in life does it not?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

moody said:


> So you see, even the best can go wrong, it gives us all hope in life does it not?


Amen to that!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Richter plays some sections briskly, and he is tops when it comes to musicality, as expected from him and his school.


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