# The Two Luigis



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Luigi Cherubini and Luigi Boccherini! They've both continued to grow on me more and more lately and some of their music is brilliant. Other than them sharing their first name, they always go together in my mind because they're from the same era and overlooked a lot. Tell me what you think of them and if you want, which one you prefer?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Maybe 3? Beethoven sometimes signed his letters "Luigi."


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know as much Cherubini. I think of him more as a writer for vocalists which is usually not as interesting to me. His Requiem has been on my want list for some time though. 

But Boccherini! His guitar quintets rival any chamber music I've heard from Mozart as far as I'm concerned. They are superb. I have some cello concertos in my collection that are very nice too. I do not recall much about his symphonies at the moment, but then Italians did not seem to embrace the symphony as a genre, even though Boccherini wrote quite a few of them.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Nono and Dallapiccola?


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

What Weston said . . .


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Weston said:


> I don't know as much Cherubini.


I don't know a lot about Cherubini either. Beethoven said Cherubini was the best among his contemporaries (although he had to think a bit). His Requiem in C minor was and is esteemed. Some people around here like his string quartets quite well. And he wrote a memorial piece on the death of Haydn that's quite nice ("Chant sur la morte de Joseph Haydn"). Happily, Haydn had not in fact died; just a mistaken notice in the local paper. Shades of Mark Twain!


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Cherubini is indeed one of the finest composers of the classical era after Mozart and Haydn. He is especially known for his operas... especially _Medea_ brilliantly performed here:










... as well as his choral music... which I picked up at a ridiculously inexpensive price a year or so ago when this was first released:










Boccherini is another favorite from the era... and I cannot recommend this recording highly enough:










(although comparisons with the finest of Mozart's chamber works seem hyperbolic)


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

While much of Boccherini's finest work might be found in his chamber works... especially the quintets for cello and guitar... I wouldn't overlook his _Stabat Mater_.










The _Stabat Mater_ is especially striking in its intimacy... scored for a string quartet and soprano soloist... the work is quite moving.


----------



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I don't know a lot about Cherubini either. Beethoven said Cherubini was the best among his contemporaries (although he had to think a bit). His Requiem in C minor was and is esteemed. Some people around here like his string quartets quite well. And he wrote a memorial piece on the death of Haydn that's quite nice ("Chant sur la morte de Joseph Haydn"). Happily, Haydn had not in fact died; just a mistaken notice in the local paper. Shades of Mark Twain!


I'm only familiar with his six string quartets myself and that's what I base my high opinion of him on. They're excellent. I've yet to explore the others.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Cherubini is indeed one of the finest composers of the classical era after Mozart and Haydn. He is especially known for his operas... especially _Medea_ brilliantly performed here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with the Fandango album!! Really is a great listen. As for the Medea album, I have a hard time getting past the horrendously atrocious sound on that particular album. But then again, there's not a huge selection for the piece.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have loved Boccherini since I first heard him. I especially enjoy his cello quintets, and some of his cello concertos are wonderful. His symphonies don't quite seem to excite me as much although I have heard a few that I quite enjoy - Symphony No. 15 op. 37 No. 3 and Symphony No. 17 Op. 41. I still have yet to hear much of his music , and I look forward to exploring it more. 

Cherubini has grown on me significantly over time. His quartets are wonderful, and I adore his Requiem along with some other choral works.


----------



## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I second StlukesguildOhio's recommendation of Riccardo Muti doing Cherubini's choral works (which includes both Requiems), as well as the Boccherini Stabat Mater on Harmonia Mundi.

I was initially reluctant to listen to Cherubini... I was perhaps influenced by the memoires of Berlioz, who is constantly ridiculung Cherubini (who was head of the Conservatoire where Berlioz studied) as a pedantic old bore and an enemy of artistic progress! Whilst some of his music does sound a little academic, I think he writes some wonderful melodies and handles counterpoint rather well.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Fabulous thread! I love Boccherini and now I've been inspired to find out about Cherubini. 

(Edit: I'm listening to his Requiem right now and .... :angel:*Luigi*, where have you _been_ all my life?)


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Maybe 3? Beethoven sometimes signed his letters "Luigi."


Yes but that would be Luigi da Barbabietola Fattoria...


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Cherubini's masses and other sacred music could be some of the greatest works in the genre if only he wouldn't come up with that absurd, cockamamy, derisive, derisory, farcical, laughable, ludicrous, preposterous, risible, silly, asinine, brainless, dumb, fatuous, foolish, half-baked, half-witted, harebrained, idiotic, imbecile, inane, moronic, nonsensical, stupid, weak-minded, witless, balmy, cockeyed, cuckoo, daffy, daft, dotty, kooky, loony, lunatic, mad, nutty, screwball, senseless, wacky and inconceivable idea of his to discard solists. 

I don't think Boccherini ever came up with similiarly absurd, cockamamy, derisive, derisory, farcical, laughable, ludicrous, preposterous, risible, silly, asinine, brainless, dumb, fatuous, foolish, half-baked, half-witted, harebrained, idiotic, imbecile, inane, moronic, nonsensical, stupid, weak-minded, witless, balmy, cockeyed, cuckoo, daffy, daft, dotty, kooky, loony, lunatic, mad, nutty, screwball, senseless, wacky and inconceivable idea. 

But I like them both anyway.


----------



## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Medea is fantastic.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

As for the Medea album, I have a hard time getting past the horrendously atrocious sound on that particular album. But then again, there's not a huge selection for the piece.

Yes. There are few recordings of Medea beyond those of Callas...who truly owned the role... and there are several recordings:










This recording was made (live) in 1958 in Dallas only hours after Callas had been fired by Rudolf Bing and the Metropolitan Opera. Callas being the great diva she was called a press conference in which she viciously denounced Bing. Her fierce anger carried over into this performance in which one can palpably sense the poison in her voice.










This recording was made in La Scala in 1953 following her brilliant revival performance in Florence where she had learned and mastered the role in a single week. This particular performance was conducted by Leonard Bernstein who stepped in for an ailing Victor de Sabata.










This recording was made in 1957 also at La Scala with Tuilio Serafin.

The role is so central to Callas that many opera fanatics... certainly most Callas fanatics... own all three of these recordings.

The stage noises and the recording quality of the orchestra is as good as one could expect from 1950s recordings of live performances... but Callas makes up for all of it. I suspect that one of the primary reasons there are so few alternative versions of this opera is that it is recognized just how much Callas owned the role... and how much any singer who takes on this very challenging role will be immediately compared with her.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Boccherini is easy listening much like Vivaldi. Nothing extraordinary. Cherubini's music have an inflated sense of genius, I only admire his string quartets.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Boccherini is easy listening much like Vivaldi.


What a strange claim. His music is as light and graceful as most of classical period composers - in what way is he more "easy listening" than, for example, Haydn or C. P. E Bach?

And if you think Vivaldi is easy lisening, try to sit through his longer operas AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA


----------



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Ok just found a good sounding version of Medea by Callas!! The 1957 version on Spotify sounds worlds better than any of the others by Callas. Night and Day difference. Not sure if it was remastered or maybe just recorded better.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Boccherini is easy listening much like Vivaldi. Nothing extraordinary.

Absolute bunk. Music... art as a whole... need not be laden with density and complexity or overwrought with pathos and tragedy. I would take the elegance and transparency of Vivaldi, Boccherini... and the Italianate Handel over a great many more leaden composers.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I went to a concert a number of years ago, the main work featured was Cherubini's Requeim in C. It was my first and so far only time hearing this work. I heard it whilst following the text and boy did he have an interesting way of conveying the text in this piece! I remember that in the program notes, it was said that Beethoven thought it was a finer requiem than Mozart's.

I think Boccherini gets to play third fiddle after Mozart and Haydn in the Classical Era but in many ways its unfair. He did do a good number of quintets in particular, about 125 or something like that. Like Mozart with his serenades, Boccherini varied the number of movements in these, they can have anything from two to six movements. The emphasis here is on melody rather than counterpoint, so that explains that lightness which people are talking about. Its also part of the Italian tradition, that instrumental writing which has a freely flowing melodic and therefore vocal quality.

Also prolific in cello concertos, as noted (around a dozen or so?). Ironically his most famous cello concerto isn't really (or fully) his, another guy basically cobbled it together from bits by Luigi. I think its the 9th concerto, and I know it well.

In terms of innovations, Boccherini did things like add the cello as the extra instrument to his quintets (not an extra viola as was convention). This may have influenced Schubert when he wrote his Quintet in C. The other thing is those guitar quintets which are amazing. You look at how he integrated Spanish music into them, not only the famous "Fandango" which has influenced contemporary composers in terms of its minimalism, but also the "Ritirata de Madrid" - the final movement's theme and variations have this almost Webernian concision of about a dozen variations packed into 6 minutes.

In terms of writing for guitar too, Boccherini was influential, for example neo-classicist Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco revered him and modelled works on his.



Winterreisender said:


> I second StlukesguildOhio's recommendation of Riccardo Muti doing Cherubini's choral works (which includes both Requiems), as well as the Boccherini Stabat Mater on Harmonia Mundi.
> 
> I was initially reluctant to listen to Cherubini... I was perhaps influenced by the memoires of Berlioz, who is constantly ridiculung Cherubini (who was head of the Conservatoire where Berlioz studied) as a pedantic old bore and an enemy of artistic progress! Whilst some of his music does sound a little academic, I think he writes some wonderful melodies and handles counterpoint rather well.


WEll there was a lot of sour grapes about Cherubini from the progressives at that time. This is not unusual with people who are in charge of music schools - him being head of Paris Conservatoire as you say. I think Cherubini blocked Liszt from studying there, although I think the rules said that you had to be a French citizen (or born in France?) to be enrolled. Maybe they expected Cherubini to apply discretion and bend the rules a bit - a thing which wasn't unknown. Probably did Liszt more good than bad at the end - I have a feeling his tendency towards experimentation and pushing boundaries would have made him a bit like Debussy was to be later in the century - seen with a good deal of suspicion, as a rebel, by his professors.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Among all the composers alive Cherubini is the most worthy of respect. I am in complete agreement, too, with his conception of the 'Requiem,' and if ever I come to write one I shall take note of many things." (Beethoven's remark reported by Seyfried)


----------



## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Cherubini: meh.

Boccherini: hell yeah!

Boccherini is, in my opinion, the third best composer of the classical era.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Dustin said:


> Luigi Cherubini and Luigi Boccherini! They've both continued to grow on me more and more lately and some of their music is brilliant. Other than them sharing their first name, they always go together in my mind because they're from the same era and overlooked a lot. Tell me what you think of them and if you want, which one you prefer?


C.H.E.R.U.B.I.N.I.

Always.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2013)

To be frank with you Novelette, the charms of Cherubini are somewhat hidden to me for the moment (lack of exposure / pretty much total ignorance except for two works). Still, Beethoven held him in good esteem, so he must warrant further examination. Any pointers for me?


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Sid James said:


> WEll there was a lot of sour grapes about Cherubini from the progressives at that time. This is not unusual with people who are in charge of music schools - him being head of Paris Conservatoire as you say. *I think Cherubini blocked Liszt from studying there, although I think the rules said that you had to be a French citizen (or born in France?) to be enrolled*. Maybe they expected Cherubini to apply discretion and bend the rules a bit - a thing which wasn't unknown. Probably did Liszt more good than bad at the end - I have a feeling his tendency towards experimentation and pushing boundaries would have made him a bit like Debussy was to be later in the century - seen with a good deal of suspicion, as a rebel, by his professors.


That rule was part of the school charter, and while could surely have been overruled by Cherubini--who had met Adam Liszt when the former visited Vienna in the 1800's [and didn't remember him!]--it was a Conservatoire policy that non-French citizens are banned from enrolling into Piano Studies only, as all manner of piano virtuoso descended upon Paris and especially the conservatoire that had no ability to serve them all. Liszt could have enrolled in any other program, such as composition, etc. Let me not deny, however, that Cherubini was an extraordinarily austere and rigid man. Yet, from all that I have read, Cherubini treated the Liszt's respectfully and paid the young Liszt tribute in voting favorably for his [Liszt's] only opera, Don Sanche, when it was being considered [and approved!] for staging.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

TalkingHead said:


> To be frank with you Novelette, the charms of Cherubini are somewhat hidden to me for the moment (lack of exposure / pretty much total ignorance except for two works). Still, Beethoven held him in good esteem, so he must warrant further examination. Any pointers for me?


Les Abencerages is a lovely opera, a great contrast from the unyielding tragedy of Medea. You may also like Lodoiska.

His output isn't vast, but I think his music is an acquired taste. My first exposure to him was, predictably, the C Minor Requiem. But his music doesn't ever seem to have had particularly broad appeal.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2013)

Sorry, I've just checked, I've only got his _Missa solemnis_ in E. The second work I thought I had is in fact Salieri's piano concerto in C (and C; and C; and C ... if you C what I mean!)


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Novelette said:


> That rule was part of the school charter, and while could surely have been overruled by Cherubini--who had met Adam Liszt when the former visited Vienna in the 1800's [and didn't remember him!]--it was a Conservatoire policy that non-French citizens are banned from enrolling into Piano Studies only, as all manner of piano virtuoso descended upon Paris and especially the conservatoire that had no ability to serve them all. Liszt could have enrolled in any other program, such as composition, etc. Let me not deny, however, that Cherubini was an extraordinarily austere and rigid man. Yet, from all that I have read, Cherubini treated the Liszt's respectfully and paid the young Liszt tribute in voting favorably for his [Liszt's] only opera, Don Sanche, when it was being considered [and approved!] for staging.


I read up a bit on Offenbach and like Liszt he was a foreigner who applied to study at the conservatoire. Cherubini initially rejected his application but when he heard him play piano with amazing fluidity and grace, he felt he had no choice but to bend the rules and admit the young Jacques. However, Offenbach didn't stay there long. He left within the space of a year to commence private study under Halevy (a minor composer now but big at the time and up to the early 20th century, composer of _La Juive_). Looks like formal study didn't suit Offenbach, but it didn't stop him from conquering Paris with his new artfrom, the operetta. He ended up earning French citizenship, a Legion of Honour and amassing great wealth after his initial big hit with _Orpheus in the Underworld _in the late 1850's. His story has parallels with that of Meyerbeer (but I digress!).


----------



## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

Cherubini all the way baby. Straight up.


----------



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Anyone know if this excellent series of albums by La Magnifica Comunita playing Boccherini's complete string quintets ever finished or is it still in progress? This 9th edition is the last one I found on Amazon but I don't think this covers them all. I just found out recently what a massive quantity of chamber works Boccherini composed, including his 100+ string quintets. I'm a huge fan of Boccherini and would appreciate any tips for other complete sets if this one is incomplete. You would think Naxos might have this covered but maybe not.


----------

