# What is the academic description of the music of Arabs??



## Tarneem

Hi guys. hope that everyone is doing AWESOME!

In this thread there are to pieces made by Egyptian composers, the first one is called "Longa Riad" the 2nd is called "Kadeyet Am Ahmed". 

when you look at these two pieces from the perspective of music theory, would you consider them as (basic) because the music lacks harmony? does the scale seems foreign to you? does the repetitive nature of the music encourage the performer to improvise???


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## Bwv 1080

Egyptians are not Arabs


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## Tarneem

Bwv 1080 said:


> Egyptians are not Arabs



well,,,, yes in terms of ethnicity yeah Egyptians are not Arabs... but being an Arab is not a matter of race, it's a matter of of the language you speak. 

A Syrian, a Sudanese and a Moroccan, each one of them has a totally different ethnicity and different culture. But they are all considered Arabs because they do speak Arabic. 

This is why pope shenouda iii of alexandria is nicknamed as "Pope of the Arab", his religion is Christianity and his race is Coptic , but he is considered as an Arab because he speaks Arabic. 

honestly I don't want to further discuss this subject here. If you want to discuss this topic feel free to message me in private

All the best


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## Bwv 1080

The point is you can’t just broadly categorize Middle Eastern music as the music of the Arabs. 

the whole region was ruled by Arabs for only a brief period from the Islamic conquests in the 700s until the Mongol conquest in the 1200s, after which the whole region was ruled by Turks. I doubt the actual Arabs who brought Islam added much to already existing musical traditions.

You do see commonalities in terms of monodic texture, 7-note modal systems and additive rhythms from Morocco through Persia and into India


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## bagpipers

Bwv 1080 said:


> The point is you can’t just broadly categorize Middle Eastern music as the music of the Arabs.
> 
> the whole region was ruled by Arabs for only a brief period from the Islamic conquests in the 700s until the Mongol conquest in the 1200s, after which the whole region was ruled by Turks. I doubt the actual Arabs who brought Islam added much to already existing musical traditions.
> 
> You do see commonalities in terms of monodic texture, 7-note modal systems and additive rhythms from Morocco through Persia and into India


The Mongols even under Chengis never had North Africa,they had Iraq and a sliver of the Arabian peninsula.The Turks maybe a different story ,but it's sort of like saying the English are not a west Germanic people,you could but the Irish would have something to say on that.


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## Bwv 1080

bagpipers said:


> The Mongols even under Chengis never had North Africa,they had Iraq and a sliver of the Arabian peninsula.The Turks maybe a different story ,but it's sort of like saying the English are not a west Germanic people,you could but the Irish would have something to say on that.


right, the Middle East had, what, 4000+ years of culture before the Arab conquests?


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## Tarneem

Bwv 1080 said:


> The point is you can’t just broadly categorize Middle Eastern music as the music of the Arabs.
> 
> the whole region was ruled by Arabs for only a brief period from the Islamic conquests in the 700s until the Mongol conquest in the 1200s, after which the whole region was ruled by Turks. I doubt the actual Arabs who brought Islam added much to already existing musical traditions.
> 
> You do see commonalities in terms of monodic texture, 7-note modal systems and additive rhythms from Morocco through Persia and into India


you got a lot of things wrong. but as I said I won't reply here....


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## bagpipers

Bwv 1080 said:


> right, the Middle East had, what, 4000+ years of culture before the Arab conquests?





Bwv 1080 said:


> right, the Middle East had, what, 4000+ years of culture before the Arab conquests?


Most of the middle east would consider themselves Arab,not sure what your trying to get at.85% of Iraqi's are considered Arab and Iraq is where Sumarians,Akkadians and Chaldeans all came from.
Arabic is a part of the same Semetic Afro-Asiatic language families other middle eastern languages are from.All rooted in proto-Sinaitic and Aramaic.


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## mmsbls

The OP clarified that the thread is about music from countries which speak Arabic. Maybe everyone can move on to consider the music of Arabic speaking people.


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## Merl

OT: Arabicana?


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## Bwv 1080

As I mentioned above, the court music of the region is characterized by seven note modes, including Maqam in Arabic speaking countries, Dastgah in Persia and Thaat in India. The traditional Greek modes all appear in these systems - which gives an indication how these systems likely have roots in antiquity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dastgah



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_maqam#Maqam_families





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaat



the lack of harmony does not make the music less sophisticated, its just different - harmony and counterpoint dont work well with the microtonal inflections that characterize this music


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## bagpipers

Bwv 1080 said:


> As I mentioned above, the court music of the region is characterized by seven note modes, including Maqam in Arabic speaking countries, Dastgah in Persia and Thaat in India. The traditional Greek modes all appear in these systems - which gives an indication how these systems likely have roots in antiquity
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dastgah
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_maqam#Maqam_families
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaat
> 
> 
> 
> the lack of harmony does not make the music less sophisticated, its just different - harmony and counterpoint dont work well with the microtonal inflections that characterize this music


I'm going to try some of those scales in my works.Very interesting!


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## BBSVK

I am somewhat interested in the opera Samson et Dalila by Saint Saëns. Saint Saëns liked to travel, especially to Morocco, and the music fascinated him. He was trying to imitate the "Arabic" music in that opera, but also in his other orchestral works, and he used the existing Western notation to write it. The famous ballet section, Danse Bacchanale from Samson et Dalila imitates the Arabic maqam scale. (but it has a completely western Waltz inserted in the middle). I have a pitch hearing impairment and almost zero musical literacy, but that music sounds vaguely exotic. I wonder how people from Arabic-speaking countries perceive it:


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## BBSVK

Temporarily deleted


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## BBSVK

This photo can stay here for fun.

I deleted the reasons for posting it, because I was unsure about something.


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## BBSVK

I have a question:

Both western scales and maqams have, by tradition, assigned some emotional significance to them (pious, joyful, innocent, feminine etc).

It seems to me, that a lot of musical numbers in Samson et Dalila by Saint Saens follow the western tradition of choosing the scale according to what the aria, chorus, etc are about. However, Bacchanale section does not fit. It is predominantly in D minor (if I believe the internet), and by western tradition, that would mean "melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humorous brood". That is a nonsense, because Bacchanale is essentially a sexual orgy. The enemies of Samson celebrate here, that he is captive. They (the Phillistines) consider it a victory of their god Dagon above Jehovah, the god of Israel. Does Bacchanale fit the emotional characteristic of any of the tradition in Arabic-speaking countries ? Does it even follow any existing scale ? Some sources say it is completely made up, but to me it looks like Shahnaz from this picture.










However, wikipedia describes Shahnaz differently. What is correct ? Does it have any emotional characteristic assigned by tradition ?


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## Bwv 1080

BBSVK said:


> This photo can stay here for fun.
> 
> I deleted the reasons for posting it, because I was unsure about something.
> 
> View attachment 177230


This is the same scale as the Bacchanale in Indian music



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhairav_(raga)



Bhairav is held to be the oldest raag in Indian music with mythological origins

Wonder if, like algebra and 'arabic' numerals, the origin of these scale systems was India?

Here is a S Indian perf


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## BBSVK

Bwv 1080 said:


> This is the same scale as the Bacchanale in Indian music
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhairav_(raga)
> 
> 
> 
> Bhairav is held to be the oldest raag in Indian music with mythological origins
> 
> Wonder if, like algebra and 'arabic' numerals, the origin of these scale systems was India?
> 
> Here is a S Indian perf


Thanx ! Probably it answers my question. Still, would You read the edited text of my previous post ?


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## BBSVK

Bwv 1080 said:


> This is the same scale as the Bacchanale in Indian music


What do you mean by Bacchanale ? From the description on Wikipedia, it doesn't seem too be a sexual orgy.


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## Bwv 1080

BBSVK said:


> What do you mean by Bacchanale ? From the description on wikipedia, it doesn't seem too be a sexual orgy.


The Saint Saëns piece


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## BBSVK

Bwv 1080 said:


> The Saint Saëns piece


I see. I am creating chaos here with editing my previous comments, but would you see the comment #16 ? Just scroll above a little.


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## Bwv 1080

BBSVK said:


> I have a question:
> 
> Both western scales and maqams have, by tradition, assigned some emotional significance to them (pious, joyful, innocent, feminine etc).
> 
> It seems to me, that a lot of musical numbers in Samson et Dalila by Saint Saens follow the western of tradition of choosing the scale according to what the aria, chorus, etc are about. However, Bacchanale section does not fit. It is predominantly in D minor (if I believe the internet), and by western tradition, that would mean "melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humorous brood". That is a nonsense, because Bacchanale is essentially a sexual orgy. The enemies of Samson celebrate here, that he is captive. They (the Phillistines) consider it a victory of their god Dagon above Jehovah, the god of Israel. Does Bacchanale fit the emotional characteristic of any of the tradition in Arabic-speaking countries ? Does it even follow any existing scale ? Some sources say it is completely made up, but to me it looks like Shahnaz from this picture.
> 
> 
> However, wikipedia describes Shahnaz differently. What is correct ? Does it have any emotional characteristic assigned by tradition ?


Cannot take the stuff about keys in western music seriously. There is some lore, but its dubious (more so because actual pitches have varied over time by as much as a whole step - D on an early 19th century piano could have been C on a modern grand)
It may have been made up by Saint Saens, or he could have found it in Maqam.


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## BBSVK

Bwv 1080 said:


> Cannot take the stuff about keys in western music seriously. There is some lore, but its dubious (more so because actual pitches have varied over time by as much as a whole step - D on an early 19th century piano could have been C on a modern grand)
> It may have been made up by Saint Saens, or he could have found it in Maqam.


I do not believe, that the keys really induce those emotions, or that the authors followed them strictly. (I tried to fit the system to the opera Norma by Bellini and that didn't work at all  ) However, my image of Saint Saens the composer is, that he is exactly the type of person, who would buy the book about emotional characteristics of the keys and write his opera accordingly. But Bacchanale doesn't fit


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## Bwv 1080

BBSVK said:


> I do not believe, that the keys really induce those emotions, or that the authors followed them strictly. (I tried to fit the system to the opera Norma by Bellini and that didn't work at all  ) However, my image of Saint Saens the composer is, that he is exactly the type of person, who would buy the book about emotional characteristics of the keys and write his opera accordingly. But Bacchanale doesn't fit


So which key did Bach write in when he wanted to evoke an orgy?


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## BBSVK

Bwv 1080 said:


> So which key did Bach write in when he wanted to evoke an orgy?


I don't know 

Haendel wrote an oratorio Samson and wikipedia writes about "the solemn gravity of the Israelites' music sharply contrasted with the hedonistic carefree choruses with added horns for the Philistines." So I should find out, in what key are those hedonistic choruses.

From the selection of keys and emotions here  I would choose D major (The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing - but not Hallelujahs obviously), or B♭ minor
(Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key. - but not suicide, LOL !)

I could possibly use some tritones as well.

If I continue this "project", I should probably move to opera, vocal or sacral music forum.


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## Bwv 1080

BBSVK said:


> I don't know
> 
> Haendel wrote an oratorio Samson and wikipedia writes about "the solemn gravity of the Israelites' music sharply contrasted with the hedonistic carefree choruses with added horns for the Philistines." So I should find out, in what key are those hedonistic choruses.
> 
> From the selection of keys and emotions here  I would choose D major (The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing - but not Hallelujahs obviously), or B♭ minor
> (Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key. - but not suicide, LOL !)


Judging from my extensive research, composers in the 20th century tended to chose the key of A to evoke wild hedonism


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