# Mahler on Beethoven



## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

Hey guys!
So I've been a huge admirer of both Beethoven and Mahler for several years now. One of the things that interests me immensely is how Beethoven's vision for what a symphony could be finds its fullest and most complete expression in Mahler's nine works in the same area. I realize that the two composers were different in several ways and that's quite understandable of course. I actually wanted to know what Mahler thought about Beethoven though. I've tried finding essays on the subject and haven't found any yet (this could be because I'm from Pakistan where classical music and literature about it is difficult, though not impossible, to find). So here's my question: what was Mahler's attitude towards Beethoven? Did he admire Beethoven? Did he have anything specific or interesting to say about Beethoven's place in music history? And so on. Looking forward to learning from you guys.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I am pretty sure that he greatly admired how Beethoven had expanded the scope and power of the Symphony, but I don't have a specific source at the moment.
I agree with your assessment of of the two Composers
He conducted a lot of Beethoven while he was leading the New York Philharmonic


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Its an interesting question. 

I think composers like Beethoven, Wagner, Verdi and Bruckner were probably Mahler's biggest influences, so I would assume he admired Beethoven, yet he did attempt to re-orchestrate one of his works, so perhaps there were some mixed feelings though perhaps he just felt the instruments in use differed enough from Beethoven's time to justify it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahler's re-orchestration of Beethoven's 9th is available on CD. My understanding is that he was trying to change things to better fit the much-changed balance between strings and wind instruments in his day. That he was only partially successful may remind us that Beethoven was, in fact, a pretty darned good orchestrator! (Because Mahler wasn't exactly chopped liver in that department himself.)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Mahler re-touched several Beethoven symphonies and even told his wife to publish them since he believed they were worth a lot of money. I have recordings of the 5 & 7 as well as the ninth, and while Mahler's intent was noble, it's like a modern artist retouching the Mona Lisa or something. There were many conductors who touched up Beethoven. Weingartner wrote the book (literally) on it. 

Mahler was quite enamored of Beethoven and it was Mahler who introduced the tradition of inserting the Lenore Overture No. 3 into the opera Fidelio. He honored Beethoven as a man who was, like himself, deeply concerned about human rights and liberty.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> Mahler re-touched several Beethoven symphonies and even told his wife to publish them since he believed they were worth a lot of money. I have recordings of the 5 & 7 as well as the ninth, and while Mahler's intent was noble, it's like a modern artist retouching the Mona Lisa or something. There were many conductors who touched up Beethoven. Weingartner wrote the book (literally) on it.
> 
> Mahler was quite enamored of Beethoven and *it was Mahler who introduced the tradition of inserting the Lenore Overture No. 3 into the opera Fidelio*. He honored Beethoven as a man who was, like himself, deeply concerned about human rights and liberty.


I have heard that too, but hope it wasn't Mahler. I can't stand when the Leonore overture is inserted before the finale. I read that Beethoven wanted no more than several seconds of silence to separate the duet ending the dungeon scene and the finale. I always remove the Leonore overture from my recordings and, if possible, from my DVDs of Fidelio


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Mahler was of the opinion that most of Beethoven's symphonies needed "reinterpretation and reworking" for live performance. Whilst he admired the man and his music he was not adverse to editing his scores as he saw fit. Mahler's alterations were pretty big for the time (it wasn't just a case of doubling winds - he doubled practically everything). He went as far as rescoring whole sections to "reinforce the melodic line and clarify distinctions between primary and secondary musical material". However, from what I can ascertain, he did this to enhance live performance only as he felt that certain sections of the score "lacked clarity and a balance between brass and strings". Listening to the changes they're not that obvious, these days. We're used to big-band Beethoven. If you want an older version of Mahler's performing version of the Ninth grab the Steinberg / Pittsburgh cycle. Steinberg used Mahler's re-orchestrated Ninth for that performance (and for most of his live performances).


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Sorry for the double-post but I didn't want to put all I know into one massive post.

In 1900, Mahler wrote, ''Owing to an ear complaint that ultimately left him totally deaf, Beethoven lost his indispensable and intimate contact with reality and the world of physical sound.'' 

Mahler often discussed the changes that were occurring in his day in instruments and in the size of the orchestra and explained that ,even in Beethoven's time, these changes were constantly occurring but Beethoven could not react to them. During Beethoven's lifetime, the string section might have had 6/8 first violins and perhaps a single double bass. Mahler would have 20 or more first violins and 10 to 12 basses. That would have drowned out the woodwinds. So Mahler doubled instruments or added others (or occasionally had an offstage band) to make sure that a particular sound was audible to the audience. For example, In the ''Eroica'' Symphony Mahler added a second flute and a clarinet.

Changes in the instruments also necessitated changes, he argued (especially in regard to valveless horns) so Mahler simply added a few notes.

Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how Mahler performed the pieces, live, as reports vary and Mahler was a a 'mood' conductor so performances varied hugely dependimng on his mood. We do know that opinion was mixed and performances were very noisy affairs - one German paper called a concert ''Erroneous'' and ''barbaric.'' The Wiener Abendpost were much kinder, ''Each note is lighted up, the darkest pathways are illuminated, nothing is lost; the voices that murmur in the shadows are exposed to the glare of the sun, airy lines are weighed down, every nervous fiber of the melody is detached and isolated from the sound fabric as if with a scalpel.''
The New York Times reported on a performance of the Ninth Symphony: ''He uses for some passages two pairs of kettledrums, which make a noise that passes beyond the bounds of musical effect. Elsewhere he accentuates the stroke of the drums with nerve-racking results, as in the scherzo, especially at the very beginning, where the rhythm is marked as by the shots of a rifle.''

We know Mahler didn't change any melodic lines, harmonies or choral parts and we know that Mahler didn't follow Beethoven's metronome markings, by this time, as Mahler had abandoned metronome markings so didn't consider them important. From what I can glean, tempi were of the mid-paced European tradition of the time but these were bombastic performances. I'd love to have seen one! I'll leave you with the words of Leonard Slatkin, when interviewed about his performances of Mahler's retouched Beethoven,

"Mahler never goes so far as to destroy the intent of Beethoven. The music is never overwhelmed. You can't really hear many of the changes. But a lot of what he did makes sense. What I do, and what most of my colleagues do, when a musical line can't come through clearly is to downgrade the dynamic level of a group of instruments. Mahler would reinforce the line by adding instruments. he wasn't trying to improve on Beethoven. Mahler rejected that word. He felt that you can't make the music better, but you certainly can make it worse. When you look at his scores, you don't suddenly come across a bit of blood and Band-Aids. There are no abrupt changes. Mahler very carefully adds and subtracts, bar by bar, to achieve an increase of clarity.""


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Mahler was quite enamored of Beethoven and it was Mahler who introduced the tradition of inserting the Lenore Overture No. 3 into the opera Fidelio.


Mahler introduced the overture to cover the scene change for the Act II Finale. He tried it out in Hamburg but more famously in Vienna. In Vienna it was needed to allow Alfred Roller's monumental sets to be moved around.

I don't like the idea either but fortunately I have only heard it in Bernstein's DG recording, a version I no longer have access to.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Biffo said:


> Mahler introduced the overture to cover the scene change for the Act II Finale. He tried it out in Hamburg but more famously in Vienna. In Vienna it was needed to allow Alfred Roller's monumental sets to be moved around.
> 
> I don't like the idea either but fortunately I have only heard it in Bernstein's DG recording, a version I no longer have access to.


It is handy for the scene change, but I have one DVD where the scene change is handled by a curtain rising and the whole finale scene is already there, so they don't need time and therefore don't have the added overture.


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