# music and architecture



## norman bates

A strange topic probably, but often when I listen to some music I can't help but think to a possible architectonic equivalent (I do similar things with music and paintings). And after all in the history of art one could see similar sensibilities in different arts. 
I'd like to try this here: post a piece of music and a picture of a house, church, bridge or any other building that you think has something... "similar". It doesn't have to be necessarily classical music.

For instance: Greene & Greene and Alec Wilder












Bruce Goff and Sun ra













Frank Lloyd Wright and Wayne Shorter












So: who do you think are in music the equivalent or Gaudi, Palladio or Le Corbusier? Who are the Brahms or the Weberns in architecture?


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## brianvds

I think it was Goethe who referred to architecture as "petrified music." One could also see it the other way round: music is liquid architecture. I understand the sentiment, but I don't make direct analogies between architectural and musical styles.


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## norman bates

brianvds said:


> I think it was Goethe who referred to architecture as "petrified music." One could also see it the other way round: music is liquid architecture. I understand the sentiment, but I don't make direct analogies between architectural and musical styles.


It's clear that there are differences, but there are also great analogies between different arts. Maybe for music is less apparent, but I could explain the examples above. Anyway just to have a immediate visual idea that is easier to understand we could use paintings, look at this:

Mondrian








Eames house








Schroder house


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## ahammel

I've heard Mondrian and Webern compared, actually.

Xenakis was a musician/architect, who composed music for particular spaces and vice-versa. He famously designed the Phillips Pavilion at Expo '58:









He and Varèse collaborated on music to be played in it.

He also helped design the Sainte Marie de La Tourette priory which is, not to put too fine a point on it, hideous:









But perhaps I don't understand architecture. Or perhaps the friars are above such worldly considerations as not wanting to live in giant concrete boxes.


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## norman bates

ahammel said:


> He also helped design the Sainte Marie de La Tourette priory which is, not to put to fine a point on it, hideous:
> 
> View attachment 32347
> 
> 
> But perhaps I don't understand architecture. Or perhaps the friars are above such worldly considerations as not wanting to live in giant concrete boxes.


Personally I consider Le Corbusier like a criminal (and I despise also Loos and in part also Mies Van Der Rohe, but Mies at least did some beautiful things like the Farnsworth house, even if I think it's nearly unlivable). He did also some interesting things (the Rochamp chapel for instance), but he did also the infamous unitè d'habitation and things like the project you've posted that are quite horrible.


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## ahammel

norman bates said:


> Personally I consider Le Corbusier like a criminal[...]


Oh come now! Worse things happen in war. (For instance, the decrepit, black-mould-and-asbestos-ridden, semi-abandoned hotel which is currently spoiling the view from my apartment :scold

The Ronchamp chapel is indeed very beautiful:


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## clara s

interesting thread

I would not compare or connect architectural and musical styles, but:

i would love to admire Gaudi's Sagrada Familia listening to Amadeus

or seeing the palladian villas with the music of Wagner

or visiting Le Corbusier's architectures listening to Debussy or Vivaldi

As for Brahms, I would connect him with Leonardo da Vinci

and Anton Webern with Lloyd Wright or Mies van der Rohe


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## hpowders

Ahhhh.....Barcelona. Me gusta!


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## Cheyenne

brianvds said:


> I think it was Goethe who referred to architecture as "petrified music." One could also see it the other way round: music is liquid architecture. I understand the sentiment, but I don't make direct analogies between architectural and musical styles.


He said in his conversations with Eckermann that he found a paper of his were he had called it such, but apparently he got the sentiment from Schelling's Philosophie der Künst: "Architecture is music in space, as it were a frozen music."


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## norman bates

I hoped a bit more success for this discussion. I suspect that many feel that there's too much subjectivity.
Anyway, there's this piece of Luigi Nono dedicated to the great italian architect Carlo Scarpa that I didn't know:





I've discovered it thinking for a possible parallel between Webern (and Nono was actually influenced by Webern) and Scarpa maybe because I was listening to the two last cantatas of Webern and their austerity make me thought of the beautiful Brion tomb. 








and then I've discovered an interesting parallel between Webern's music and enclosed spaces like gardens or cemeteries.
http://books.google.it/books?id=F8jM_fWN2k0C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=webern+cemetery&source=bl&ots=Sh42taU98r&sig=xj5jgN3LDC0vkcUyKEAsPOGDc4c&hl=it&sa=X&ei=8wDUUq6UFsPnywPV1ICwCQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=webern%20cemetery&f=false

"the notion of enclosed space joins the garden to the cemetery, a link which is explored at some lenght in chapter 3. Both were central sites in Weberns' construction of Heimat. The cemetery is of course cultivated like a garden, since both spaces, in their different ways, produce metaphors of rebirth. In both cases, the spatial separation from the outside world also creates a temporal separation. The normal passage of time is suspended here. Time in the garden moves very slowly, in a cyclical turning over within a bounded space. Time in the cemetery has the effect of obliterating the oppositions of present and past necessary to 'lived life', such that spatial presence dominates over temporal direction. This is an idea that goes to the heart of Webern's later music."

Anyway, talking about differences:


clara s said:


> interesting thread
> 
> I would not compare or connect architectural and musical styles, but:
> 
> i would love to admire Gaudi's Sagrada Familia listening to Amadeus


Why Mozart? I'm not sure who I would compare to Gaudi. If I was considering painters, I would certainly say Mirò or someone similar for their free and childish playfulness. But musically I don't know.





or seeing the palladian villas with the music of Wagner[/QUOTE]

Here, altough it's maybe for obvious reasons I'd see something more classical. Haydn, maybe for his serenity. After all in the work of Palladio I see the classical idea of perfect proportion, while in Wagner there's that titanism that I would probably associate with something bigger and powerful.



clara s said:


> or visiting Le Corbusier's


I can't help but thinking that Boulez is a good match for Le corbusier. Maybe I have some bias because I have not great symphaty for both of them and because they were the two modernists in a position of power (actually the power of Le Corbusier was far more great and harmful). But there's something else in their approach that I think it's similar. But I'm not sure.
About Debussy, at this moment I can't think of anything in the world of architecture that I would consider similar.



clara s said:


> and Anton Webern with Lloyd Wright or Mies van der Rohe


For Wright I disagree: there's a lot of decorativism in his style (well, there's also in Scarpa but maybe it's of a different and more austere nature) and his architecture has always a feeling of relax. Mies Van der Rohe is a parallel I understand more. Like in his beautiful pavillion (like I've said, it's not an architect I like but he did some beautiful works) there's more austerity and an attention to the essentiality and clarity of form and very few decorations.


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## Winterreisender

One often hears the metaphor "cathedrals of sound" attached to the complex polyphonic works of the Medieval period. An obvious example would be to compare Perotin with the Notre Dame Cathedral, given the geographical connection.

But whilst many of the great cathedrals are Gothic (and therefore slightly grotesque... in a good way), one of my favourite buildings in the world is Duham Catherdral, which situates itself with one foot in the Gothic tradition and the other in Romanesque tradition of classical beauty and balance.










compare Romanesque nave with Gothic high altar















A composer with whom I could attempt to make a meaningful comparison might be Walter Lambe of Eton Choirbook fame. In pieces such as his Magnificat (



) he captures that Gothic sense of the Huge and Imposing" with his extensive melodic structures (in the same way that the Cathedral dominates the skyline), but these moments are buttressed by smaller and more intimate moments, with clear harmony always brining us back to familiar territory.

This struggle between classical beauty/proportion and the Gothic/grotesque is one of those dichotomies which seems to re-surface endlessly throughout the history of art, but there are of course times when the two aesthetics can harmoniously balance each other out.


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## norman bates

Winterreisender said:


> One often hears the metaphor "cathedrals of sound" attached to the complex polyphonic works of the Medieval period. An obvious example would be to compare Perotin with the Notre Dame Cathedral, given the geographical connection.
> 
> But whilst many of the great cathedrals are Gothic (and therefore slightly grotesque... in a good way), one of my favourite buildings in the world is Duham Catherdral, which situates itself with one foot in the Gothic tradition and the other in Romanesque tradition of classical beauty and balance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> compare Romanesque nave with Gothic high altar
> 
> View attachment 32601
> View attachment 32600
> 
> 
> A composer with whom I could attempt to make a meaningful comparison might be Walter Lambe of Eton Choirbook fame. In pieces such as his Magnificat (
> 
> 
> 
> ) he captures that Gothic sense of the Huge and Imposing" with his extensive melodic structures (in the same way that the Cathedral dominates the skyline), but these moments are buttressed by smaller and more intimate moments, with clear harmony always brining us back to familiar territory.
> 
> This struggle between classical beauty/proportion and the Gothic/grotesque is one of those dichotomies which seems to re-surface endlessly throughout the history of art, but there are of course times when the two aesthetics can harmoniously balance each other out.


Thanks, great post. I think that romanticism even more than the gothic period is probably the one I associate more with the idea of a Cathedral. And about this, I'm not sure if he was him, but I think Grieg said something like that he preferred to build houses while other composers were building cathedrals. It's an idea that I've always liked, and maybe it's because of this that I often tend to prefer the more intimate world of chamber music. And in both cases, music and architecture I think that there's a lot of rethoric in the fact that the the works that are usually considered the most important are the big, large ones.


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## Winterreisender

norman bates said:


> Thanks, great post. I think that romanticism even more than the gothic period is probably the one I associate more with the idea of a Cathedral. And about this, I'm not sure if he was him, but I think Grieg said something like that he preferred to build houses while other composers were building cathedrals. It's an idea that I've always liked, and maybe it's because of this that I often tend to prefer the more intimate world of chamber music. And in both cases, music and architecture I think that there's a lot of rethoric in the fact that the the works that are usually considered the most important are the big, large ones.


Well of course Romanticism sometimes favours the large and monumental, but sometimes favours small and refined, and Grieg is certainly one of my favourite composers of miniatures. Maybe the Romantic in me would associate something like this with his music:









(Iceland turf houses)

...something very modest, not really drawing attention to itself, but also very comfortable and reassuring


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## tdc

I don't often associate music with architecture, I seem to have certain general (these are very general) associations (sometimes) based roughly on periods/style:

*Medieval* - chanting and associated imagery, robes, candles, religious ritualistic imagery
*Renaissance* - similar to medieval, but now with an element of pastoral
*Baroque* - pastoral again but more utopian, garden of Eden type stuff, the insides of churches, organs
*Classical* - finely manicured lawns and estates, rich people dancing in ballrooms
*Romantic* - here I do think of some grand architecture, especially with Bruckner. I agree with Norman Bates that the grand cathedrals are for me more associated with this period than any other. Anything over the top and/or very "rich" (like in "rich" chocolate)
*Modern* - hyper realistic colors that are only occasionally glimpsed in very vivid dreams (especially with Ravel and neo-classicism in general), a dream-like surreal atmosphere generally 
*Post-Modern* - the machinations of modern society, sometimes super clear crystalline type imagery, sometimes nightmarish scenes


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## TxllxT

I do not understand the association of 'Gothic' and 'Grotesque'. It doesn't illuminate me. Both are labels that have been centuries later invented by people who were looking at those 'dark ages' with highbrow disdain and rationalist contempt. From architectural point of view however the great 'Gothic' cathedrals happen to excel over the church edifices that have been build in more recent times by making the most economic use of material. For example a typical Classicist building (like St Paul's Cathedral, London) is *not* the best example of using building materials in a technically elegant & economic manner. We have to wait until the genius of Antoni Gaudí, to find an architect who surpassing the 'Gothic' cathedrals with his Modernismo buildings, that may seem at first bizarre & exotic in outlook, but internally happen to possess an even better economy & technical elegance in using building materials than the 'Gothic' cathedrals of the past. Gaudí took his inspiration from looking at nature, how things are build in nature.
OK, where does this lead us in the comparison of music and architecture? In music every excess of musical notes is immediately noticed. Does music have to sound natural? Or is some unnaturalness allowed? Personally I prefer 'Art Nouveau' composers like Mahler & Bruckner over the prodigies of Classicism (Beethoven).


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## Winterreisender

TxllxT said:


> I do not understand the association of 'Gothic' and 'Grotesque'. It doesn't illuminate me. Both are labels that have been centuries later invented by people who were looking at those 'dark ages' with highbrow disdain and rationalist contempt. From architectural point of view however the great 'Gothic' cathedrals happen to excel over the church edifices that have been build in more recent times by making the most economic use of material. For example a typical Classicist building (like St Paul's Cathedral, London) is *not* the best example of using building materials in a technically elegant & economic manner. We have to wait until the genius of Antoni Gaudí, to find an architect who surpassing the 'Gothic' cathedrals with his Modernismo buildings, that may seem at first bizarre & exotic in outlook, but internally happen to possess an even better economy & technical elegance in using building materials than the 'Gothic' cathedrals of the past. Gaudí took his inspiration from looking at nature, how things are build in nature.
> OK, where does this lead us in the comparison of music and architecture? In music every excess of musical notes is immediately noticed. Does music have to sound natural? Or is some unnaturalness allowed? Personally I prefer 'Art Nouveau' composers like Mahler & Bruckner over the prodigies of Classicism (Beethoven).


I would associate the terms "Gothic" and "Grotesque" with the Medieval period for the following reasons. The way I see it, art before the Medieval period was heavily influenced by the Graeco-Roman tradition, which emphasised proportion and balance, the so-called 'golden ratio.' As a result the arches are geometric, the spires never too high, and so on. But Christian artists of the Medieval period gradually seemed to reject these aesthetics, perhaps unable to detach them from the pagan background, and instead favoured a new sort of unruliness, with jagged arches and an emphasis on verticality.

"Grotesque" might seem an unfortunate term, as it sounds rather pejorative, but I think the art of this period was meant to be a bit ugly, reflecting the fallen state of man. There is not supposed to be perfect beauty here on this material world, due to the inherently wicked nature of mankind, so there is no point striving for it as the Greeks had done. This is apparent in depictions of the human body. Whereas the Greeks wanted an anatomically perfect depiction of it, the Christian artists of the Medieval period wanted to emphasise man for all his imperfections. I think the same can be more or less said for other art forms as well. It was only at the time of the Renaissance when the Grotesque fell out of fashion and Classical ideas of beauty were once again embraced.


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## Sid James

I often think of the visual arts as well as architecture and how they relate to music. Here are a few correspondences that come immediately to mind.

*Adolf Loos' *architecture, that Vienna Successionist style, to me resembles the pared down style of *Webern.* There was a story of how Kaiser Franz Josef I hated one of Loos' buildings that stared him right in the face when he exited his palace grounds via one of its gates. He called it the house without eyebrows. Years ago I read Loos' treatise on architecture "Ornament and Crime." The name says it all - this was minimalism before minimalism.










Going back from that the *Gabrieli brothers *- Andrea and Giovanni - composed thier music for choir and brass (also called Sacred Symphonies) with the acoustic of *St. Mark's *and St. Rocco churches in Venice in mind. It was like the world's first stereo system. Later on Stravinsky would also compose works to be premiered at St. Mark's. The cavernous quality of the interior makes me think of the majestic music echoing through the church:










Finally for now, an obvious one (on some cd covers) is the *Chrysler Building in New York*. Who else does it bring to mind but *Gershwin*? Its got a bit of decoration - and maybe a hint of frivolity, which would perhaps make Loos balk?! - at the same time its clearly from the Modern age of mass production and innovations in engineering etc.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I would associate the terms "Gothic" and "Grotesque" with the Medieval period for the following reasons. The way I see it, art before the Medieval period was heavily influenced by the Graeco-Roman tradition...

Well... essentially, the vast majority of the architecture and art of Europe that has survived from prior to the Middle Ages WAS Greek and Roman or of their empire.

...which emphasised proportion and balance, the so-called 'golden ratio.'

The "golden ratio" was important in the construction of the Parthenon and the establishment of canons of proportion during that period... but the Greek and the Roman empires lasted a long time and underwent many stylistic changes. Mycenaean, Minoan, early archaic Greek, and later Hellenistic art did not always fit this same mold. The later so-called "Hellenistic Baroque" could be outrageous, unruly, and far from suggesting classical order and proportion. The same could be true of a great deal of later Roman art:



















As a result the arches are geometric, the spires never too high, and so on.

There are few spires among European architecture prior to the establishment of Christianity as the official religion.

But Christian artists of the Medieval period gradually seemed to reject these aesthetics, perhaps unable to detach them from the pagan background...

This is part of the reason for the stylistic shift. There is also a loss of the knowledge of anatomy and physiology and various building techniques developed by the Greeks and Romans. With the loss of a powerful central government, there was much pillaging and looting by various "Barbaric" tribes, by the Vikings, and later by bands of mercenaries. The architecture of the churches and dwellings of the aristocracy became increasingly fortified. As Europe grew increasingly "civilized" once again, there was a move away from heavy fortress-like architecture and small windows toward the Gothic era stressing light and height as expressive God and man's spiritual longing.

...and instead favoured a new sort of unruliness, with jagged arches and an emphasis on verticality.

Actually, Medieval art was often every bit as highly ordered as that of the Greeks or Romans. It was merely ordered in a different manner. Looking at architecture, the Byzantine, Ottonian, and Carolingian periods saw the developments of the cruciform and central plan. Charlemagne's Palatine Chapel at Aachen was structured upon the Byzantine Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna as well as the great church (now a mosque) in Constantinople/Istanbul: Hagia Sophia.


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## StlukesguildOhio

There was an incredible degree of mathematics and geometry employed in Medieval Architecture as a result of the belief that the universe was built upon mathematical/geometric structures and the desire to mimic this architecture of the universe in the cathedrals built to the glory of God. Personally, I have long thought of Bach's work... especially something like his magnificent *Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor...*






... as echoing the repetitive... hypnotic structures of Gothic Architecture:










"Grotesque" might seem an unfortunate term, as it sounds rather pejorative, but I think the art of this period was meant to be a bit ugly, reflecting the fallen state of man.There is not supposed to be perfect beauty here on this material world, due to the inherently wicked nature of mankind, so there is no point striving for it as the Greeks had done. This is apparent in depictions of the human body.

Moreso it was simply that mankind's earthly physical body was seen as unimportant... rather it was the spiritual being that mattered. The beauty of the human body was seen as something seductive... and dangerous.

Whereas the Greeks wanted an anatomically perfect depiction of it, the Christian artists of the Medieval period wanted to emphasise man for all his imperfections.

Mankind as a physical being was unimportant... as as such, within a generation or two of the fall of the Roman Empire and the establishment of the Church, artists lost all abilities to render the illusion of the human body in a manner that showed an understanding of anatomy and physiology... and no reason to do so.

I think the same can be more or less said for other art forms as well. It was only at the time of the Renaissance when the Grotesque fell out of fashion and Classical ideas of beauty were once again embraced.

The idea that the Middle Ages represented some artistic "grotesque" was actually promoted during the Renaissance... especially by the art historian, Giorgio Vasari. The very terms "Romanesque" and "Gothic" were employed as pejoratives. The Renaissance, after all, strove toward a rebirth of classical knowledge (as well as the power of the Roman Empire) merged with Christian values. The rejection of the "barbaric" art of the Gothic ("goth-like") and earlier medieval periods was based upon a lack of understanding an appreciation of this period. In actuality, the art and culture of the Byzantine Empire, the period of Islamic rule in Spain, Gothic Paris (and the surrounding Isle de France), Aquitania, and many other medieval cultures were among the most influential and sophisticated in European history.


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## StlukesguildOhio

There was a story of how Kaiser Franz Josef I hated one of Loos' buildings that stared him right in the face when he exited his palace grounds via one of its gates. He called it the house without eyebrows. Years ago I read Loos' treatise on architecture "Ornament and Crime." The name says it all - this was minimalism before minimalism.

I never liked Loos. He was the father of the aesthetic that "Less is More" and I am of the belief that "Less is a Bore". In Loos' book Gustav Klimt... the master of ornament and decoration... represented the Anti-Christ. Considering that this is now the single most reproduced painting in the world:










... and this was briefly the single most expensive painting sold at auction:










... it would seem that Loos opinions aren't worth a hill of beans.










I also agree that San Marco, Venice is one of the most spectacular works of architecture... however, I've always thought of Monteverdi's _Vespers_... written specifically for the great Byzantine church...


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## Sid James

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I never liked Loos. He was the father of the aesthetic that "Less is More" and I am of the belief that "Less is a Bore". In Loos' book Gustav Klimt... the master of ornament and decoration... represented the Anti-Christ. Considering that this is now the single most reproduced painting in the world:
> ... and this was briefly the single most expensive painting sold at auction:
> 
> ... it would seem that Loos opinions aren't worth a hill of beans.


I am basically neutral on Loos, I suppose I don't mind the Vienna Succession, there is some diversity there (esp. if you look at what was going on in Prague and Budapest with that aesthetic at the time). But its kind of a reaction against the overblown late Victorian/Eclectic style of architecture. I don't mind some of that either but I suppose it got to the point of being cliched and too academic.

Speaking to the 'outposts' of the Habsburg Empire, you had Hungary's version of the Succession which I think was less dry. The Czifra Palace in Kodaly's home town of Kecskemet - where he set up a music academy that bears his name and is still going - can be thought of as an equivalent to his music. That blend of folk elements and Modernity, and that aesthetic quality of being highly crafted, polished, elegant also perhaps, and definitely more organic than the Viennese equivalent.












> I also agree that San Marco, Venice is one of the most spectacular works of architecture... however, I've always thought of Monteverdi's _Vespers_... written specifically for the great Byzantine church...


I thought of that too, but I think its unclear whether he was thinking of St Mark's in mind for the Vespers (I think its a bit like Bach's Mass in B minor, a work done as a job application, and I think Monteverdi wanted to get a job in Rome, but the style was too flamboyant for them, and the Vespers became a hit at Venice which was quite apt). So it was eventually performed there. In any case, this thread is for personal takes on the matter, whether or not linked to actual history, so its just as fitting to link Monteverdi to St. Mark's, or say Stravinsky.


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## Winterreisender

Great post, StlukesguildOhio, you raise some very interesting points, and you are of course perfectly right to say that, when dealing with artistic eras which lasted hundreds of years and covered such huge geographical expanses, blanket terms like "Gothic" or "Graeco-Roman" cannot reflect the extent of the artistic diversity.



> the Greek and the Roman empires lasted a long time and underwent many stylistic changes. Mycenaean, Minoan, early archaic Greek, and later Hellenistic art did not always fit this same mold. The later so-called "Hellenistic Baroque" could be outrageous, unruly, and far from suggesting classical order and proportion. The same could be true of a great deal of later Roman art:


Your two Roman examples are indeed somewhat unruly and chaotic, but this sort of imperial art cannot be fully detached from its political purpose, in my opinion. The Commodus-Hercules statue is certainly an anomaly within imperial portraiture and for this reason adds to the speculation about Commodus being a "madman" or whatever, but it nevertheless relies on the age-old strategy of associating the emperor with well-known godly imagery (e.g. holding the apples of Hesperides) as a means of legitimating his rule. As for the Ludovisi Battle sarcophagus, this was produced during the height of the "Crisis of the 3rd Century," where Rome was at constant war on every frontier, but in the depicted battle between Roman and Barbarian, it is still the Roman who is on top, reflecting the correct order of things. Order emerging from chaos... that is a theme which one finds in a lot of Roman battle depictions of this period, e.g. the Column of Marcus Aurelius, where the emperor is assissted in battle by his famous "rain miracle," which disperses the enemy troops:










As for the Hellenistic Baroque, I imagine that has a lot to do with Greece's increased dealing with the Persian and Egyptian East following Alexander's conquests, where Eastern tendencies towards excess, decadence and heightened emotion infiltrated Classical standards. Unsurprisingly, images reflecting the cult of Dionysus are also pretty "extreme," such as this Sleeping Satyr:










As for the lack of realism in later depictions of the human body...



> Mankind as a physical being was unimportant... as as such, within a generation or two of the fall of the Roman Empire and the establishment of the Church, artists lost all abilities to render the illusion of the human body in a manner that showed an understanding of anatomy and physiology... and no reason to do so.


What I would also say is that the move away from idealistic and anatomically perfect renderings of the human body predates the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Take this "Tetrarchs Statue" from Byzantium, which pre-dates the rise of Christianity.










Whether the non-distinctive portrayal of the emperors reflects a decline in artistic standards, or a deliberate attempt to deflect attention away from emperors as individuals, I don't know. It's just another interesting example, illustrating that the divide between Graeco-Roman and Medieval isn't always clear.

So you're main point I don't disagree with. The Gothic cathedrals are mightily impressive and do have their own type of structure and order. I nevertheless think the divide between the Classical and the Grotesque are useful terms to describe two opposing aesthetics which I outlined in my earlier post, even if they need not be exclusively attached to a single period in art history. I would say, for example, that ideas of Gothicism and the Grotesque re-emerged as Romanticism developed out of the Neo-Classicism of the 18th century for example. But that's a topic for another day!


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## norman bates

Sid James said:


> I often think of the visual arts as well as architecture and how they relate to music. Here are a few correspondences that come immediately to mind.
> 
> *Adolf Loos' *architecture, that Vienna Successionist style, to me resembles the pared down style of *Webern.* There was a story of how Kaiser Franz Josef I hated one of Loos' buildings that stared him right in the face when he exited his palace grounds via one of its gates. He called it the house without eyebrows. Years ago I read Loos' treatise on architecture "Ornament and Crime." The name says it all - this was minimalism before minimalism.


It's a parallel I understand, but while I'm fascinated by Webern, there isn't a single work I know of Loos that I appreciate. For me he didn't understand that a building ism't just a space made in order to survive but it should also be beautiful, and we often perceive beautiful something that has richness of detail. I don't know, Webern to me suggest a complex austerity and a timeless quality (like the rothko chapel, that is a work where we have a parallel between architecture, paintings and there's also that Feldman's composition) while usually when I look at a Loos building it looks just... poor.
So it's absolutely true that Loos (or Mondrian) and his work predated minimalism, but for me it lacks that spiritual aspect that I find in the music of many minimalist composers and in the architecture of the Rothko Chapel (or in certain works of James Turrell to say another name).


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## TxllxT

Winterreisender said:


> I would associate the terms "Gothic" and "Grotesque" with the Medieval period for the following reasons. The way I see it, art before the Medieval period was heavily influenced by the Graeco-Roman tradition, which emphasised proportion and balance, the so-called 'golden ratio.' As a result the arches are geometric, the spires never too high, and so on. But Christian artists of the Medieval period gradually seemed to reject these aesthetics, perhaps unable to detach them from the pagan background, and instead favoured a new sort of unruliness, with jagged arches and an emphasis on verticality.
> 
> "Grotesque" might seem an unfortunate term, as it sounds rather pejorative, but I think the art of this period was meant to be a bit ugly, reflecting the fallen state of man. There is not supposed to be perfect beauty here on this material world, due to the inherently wicked nature of mankind, so there is no point striving for it as the Greeks had done. This is apparent in depictions of the human body. Whereas the Greeks wanted an anatomically perfect depiction of it, the Christian artists of the Medieval period wanted to emphasise man for all his imperfections. I think the same can be more or less said for other art forms as well. It was only at the time of the Renaissance when the Grotesque fell out of fashion and Classical ideas of beauty were once again embraced.


The Romanesque way of building is clearly a continuation of the Roman tradition, but in the "Gothic" way of building there is a free genius of engineering present, that must have been 'a shock of the new' to the contemporaries. The elegant way how the mechanical laws are being obeyed in defiance with the laws of gravity has hardly been surpassed by the architects of Renaissance & Classicism, who were in fact reintroducing the ancient examples of the Graeco-Roman Classics. This 'shock of the new' has returned in the Art Nouveau / Liberty Style: from engineering point of view Gaudí 's creations are just as sensational as from aesthetical judgment. Personally I do not see "Gothic" architecture related to being "Christian": "Gothic" architecture is a celebration of the free engineering spirit. Just try for yourself to build up an arch with bricks and you've got the task to make this arch as wide & as high as possible: the result will be something very similar to - surprise, surprise - "Gothic".


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## Sid James

norman bates said:


> It's a parallel I understand, but while I'm fascinated by Webern, there isn't a single work I know of Loos that I appreciate. For me he didn't understand that a building ism't just a space made in order to survive but it should also be beautiful, and we often perceive beautiful something that has richness of detail. I don't know, Webern to me suggest a complex austerity and a timeless quality...


I agree that Webern and Loos don't exactly fit. When I hear Webern's music I think of these layers, some things coming into focus, other receding into the distance. Some ideas lit up and clear, others in the dimness. I can't think of a building that does exactly that! But Loos is close enough, for the reasons I gave of having an austere "no thrills" quality, and one tangible connection is that Webern dedicated a piece to him (_Quartet for violin, clarinet, tenor saxophone, and piano, Op. 22 _of 1930). Do you know this piece? I haven't heard it, I am familiar though with his orchestral works and a few other pieces.


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## whiteroses

Great to find this interesting thread....Thanks fo rstarting it and for the many who have shared such interesting information. observations and creative thinking.

I suppose one of the most direct way to link music to architecture is to think about where memorable concerts have been performed or that house the great orchestras in the world.

I have just started a sabbatical year and will therefore have some free time to do things that I have always wanted to do but did not have the time nor the means to do so. One of those is to attend at least one concert in as many of the iconic music halls as I can afford to visit....I am hoping I get a chance togo to the La Scala, the Musikverein and the Berlin Philharmonie in the next few months.

In the meantime, I will post photos of the significant music halls that I have already had the pleasure to visit...I trust they qualify for this thread,...

For today, I will post photos of the musical halls that I go to regularly - some iconic, others not but still have some significance...

As a former Sydney-sider, I have have had the pleasure of attending many concerts at the Sydney Opera House. I don't think there is much question about the icon-status of this building?

Location: Sydney
Construction started: 1957
Opened: 1973
Main Concert hall: 2,679 seats (Total complex: 6,738)
Home to Sydney Symphony Orchestra
Declared UNESCO World Heritage Site 2007

Attachment 32738

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I now live and work in The Netherlands so the great Concertebouw is the iconic music hall within very easy reach

Location: Amsterdam
Construction started: 1883
Opened: 1888
Main Concert hall: 1,974 seats (It looks smaller than that!)
Home to Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Generally considered as one of the finest music halls with excellent, if not the best, acoustics

Attachment 32739

....and my local music hall is the Dr Anton Phillipszall in The Hague which is the home of the Residentie Orkest and includes the Lucent Dans Theater. May not be a musical icon, but is pretty cool nevertheless

Attachment 32740

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And down the road is Paris where, unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of attending a musical event in the great architectural masterpieces except that we regularly attend at the Salle Pleyel...not sure if this is considered an icon.

Location: Paris
First Opened:1839
Extension and refurbishment re-opened: 1927 and then again in 2007
Main Concert hall: 1,913 seats
Home to Orchestre de Paris and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France
Important works premiered here such as those of Saint-Saëns, and Ravel. Major conductors performed here including Ravel and Stravinsky



*******

And then just across the pond is the Barbican Centre...many will probably argue its iconic standing so will refrain from describing it as such...but it is certainly an imposing and expansive complex that dominates a section of the City...so I will include it in this photographic collection...

First Opened:1982
Extension and refurbishment re-opened: 1927 and then again in 2007
Main Concert hall: 1,949 seats
Home to London Symphony Orchestra and BBC Symphony Orchestra
Wikipedia says it is the largest complex of its kind in Europe



Maybe sometime soon I will get a chance to see some concerts at the Royal Festival Hall and the Proms at the Royal Albert Hall so I can add the photos here too.

*******

Of course, there are also the major Music Festivals that use many historic and iconic buildings as venues or backdrops to their music events. Salzburg etc comes to mind...but I will leave these for next posts....

In the meantime, whatever you are doing and wherever you are....Ihope you are having a musically excellent time. Au revoir...:tiphat:


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## Sid James

Ok some more composer-architecture similes.

I think *Xenakis*, with those contrasts in dynamics in his music, which bring to mind curves (parabolas) I think *Frank Gehry* is a good fit (not Le Corbusier, I don't think they correspond, even though I know there is a tangible connection between him and Xenakis, the brutalism stuff, and them working together).

The variability and structure of *Gehry's Bilbao building *is a better match to Xenakis' sense of freedom and contrast within that aspect of mathematical control.










Another Gehry one, the so-called *"Ginger and Fred" (aka Dancing House) in Prague *goes well I think with the whimsy and absurdity of *Satie*:










*Sony Tower in New York *fits well with *John Adams*, that whole Postmodern era/aesthetic of the 1980's, doing things that Modernism said was a no-no (the building looks like a Grandfather Clock for one thing!).


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## ahammel

Gehry, you nut! Get out of town!


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## norman bates

I'm not a great fan of minimalism in architecture, but Barragan is probably the biggest exception. His work is truly poetic, ascetic, there's silence and a deep sense of loneliness.










But I'm not sure I know something like that in music. If I had to consider painting, I would probably say something of De Chirico or some other painter in the metaphysical genre. 
Considering music, For obvious reasons I would think of minimalist music, maybe some holy minimalist composer. Meredith Monk maybe but I don't know, I can't think of a particular piece. Suggestions?


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## TxllxT

norman bates said:


> I'm not a great fan of minimalism in architecture, but Barragan is probably the biggest exception. His work is truly poetic, ascetic, there's silence and a deep sense of loneliness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm not sure I know something like that in music. If I had to consider painting, I would probably say something of De Chirico or some other painter in the metaphysical genre.
> Considering music, For obvious reasons I would think of minimalist music, maybe some holy minimalist composer. Meredith Monk maybe but I don't know, I can't think of a particular piece. Suggestions?


Deep sense of loneliness: 




24 Preludes & Fugues by Dimitri Shostakovich


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## jurianbai

no love for deconstructism and futuristic architecture?

I;m thinking Xenakis and Elliot carter... maybe Phillip Glass, Cage also










futuristic city









Oriental theme archictecture, Tan Dun


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## TxllxT

The yellow building is the Bachhaus in Eisenach, since 1907 the first museum dedicated to Johann Sebastian Bach.
The greyish building next to the Bachhaus is a new museum building (2007), designed by Prof. Berthold Penkhues (former student of Frank O.Gehry).

My question: does this construction reflect any music? Does it reflect Bach's music  ?


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