# British and German music



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Could one say, with any justification at all, that the fugue is to German music what the rhapsody is to British music?


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

No....................


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Only if you ignore a few hundred years of musical history.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I can't that's for sure.


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm not sure I'm following you here...I never thought of the Rhapsody as a particularly British genre. I can think of many Rhapsodies by non-British composers (Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, Brahms's Piano Rhapsodies, Ravel's Rapsodie espagnole, to name only a few).

As for the fugue, it's true that many of the most famous fugues were written by German composers such as Bach, Beethoven and Mendelssohn. But there are plenty of non-German fugues too!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It is rare that A is to B as X is to Z.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It is rare that A is to B as X is to Z.


Perhaps we need a poll to determine the facts.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Perhaps we need a poll to determine the facts.


Goddess forbid. .............


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Please, in the name of fortune, let sleeping polls lie.:lol:


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bruce said:


> Could one say, with any justification at all, that the fugue is to German music what the rhapsody is to British music?


The fugue is to German music as the Pavan and Galliard is to British.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bruce said:


> Could one say, with any justification at all, that the fugue is to German music what the rhapsody is to British music?


I dunno. Have you considered turning this interesting querie into a poll, to get a more comprehensive, statistically correlatable, anecdotal response from the active members?

At least through a poll, we will all know if there is any justification to your querie.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

A "rhapsody" can be just about anything, no?


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I'm not sure I'm following you here...I never thought of the Rhapsody as a particularly British genre. I can think of many Rhapsodies by non-British composers (Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, Brahms's Piano Rhapsodies, Ravel's Rapsodie espagnole, to name only a few).
> 
> As for the fugue, it's true that many of the most famous fugues were written by German composers such as Bach, Beethoven and Mendelssohn. But there are plenty of non-German fugues too!


This was just a thought I had, initiated by my own response to so much of British music. And I wondered if others had the same response, though it seems obviously not.

When I listen to music by Bax, Arnold, Parry, Ireland, Elgar, Delius, and Walton, I'm kind of baffled. It seems to me--and I emphasize that this is completely subjective--that the works of these composers are rather rhapsodic in character. They don't follow precise melodic formulations as I often hear in German works. (Though I'm aware that Delius was born in Germany.) German works seem to have more melodic structure to me. They're easier to follow, and the melodies find a place in my head a bit easier. For instance, I have no trouble remembering the main themes of all four Brahms symphonies, but I'd be at a loss to remember any of the themes Bax uses. When I listen to Elgar, so many of his themes just seem to meander off without the feeling of completeness.

So it seemed to me that much of the best known symphonic works by British composers were rhapsodic in nature, while many of the works I'm familiar with by German composers were less so. At any rate, the opinions of others expressed here will give me some food for thought as I continue to listen to works from both countries.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I dunno. Have you considered turning this interesting querie into a poll, to get a more comprehensive, statistically correlatable, anecdotal response from the active members?
> 
> At least through a poll, we will all know if there is any justification to your querie.


It's not a bad idea, but I was more interested in the reasoning behind the opinions than I was in a quick yes or no answer.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> A "rhapsody" can be just about anything, no?


Yes, I reply, with a bit of hesitation. But a fugue can't, and that is a little bit of what I was trying to get at. Sometimes, British music seems to wander around to me, without settling, as a fugue must. There's more melodic freedom in the British music I'm familiar with, which would quickly unravel any fugal treatment.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> A "rhapsody" can be just about anything, no?


Do you rally care.........


----------



## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Fugue is a musical form, while rhapsody is a musical genre. We may not parallel these two different ideas.


----------



## Melinda (May 9, 2017)

hmmm... I am not sure.. a poll would help. yeah


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bruckner Anton said:


> Fugue is a musical form, while rhapsody is a musical genre. We may not parallel these two different ideas.


Many who study such things hesitate to call fugue a form because there aren't enough definite architectural features governing a fugue's layout. Fugues have an exposition and usually a final tonic statement of the subject, with an exploration of other key areas in between, but that isn't as precise a description as those one finds in the case of, for example, sonata or rondo forms. Some therefore think fugue is better described as a general procedure for the treatment of a musical subject rather than a definite form.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

shame - I clicked on this thread thinking it was going to be a discussion of german vs uk music


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

stomanek said:


> shame - I clicked on this thread thinking it was going to be a discussion of german vs uk music


Actually, that's exactly what this is - at least, I think that's what the OP intended to do. He's suggesting that German music is more structured, while music from the UK tends to be freer in form. Whether or not we agree with his claim (and I don't!), it might provide a useful starting point for comparing the two national traditions.


----------



## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Many who study such things hesitate to call fugue a form because there aren't enough definite architectural features governing a fugue's layout. Fugues have an exposition and usually a final tonic statement of the subject, with an exploration of other key areas in between, but that isn't as precise a description as those one finds in the case of, for example, sonata or rondo forms. Some therefore think fugue is better described as a general procedure for the treatment of a musical subject rather than a definite form.


Thanks for your reply. So, maybe it is more proper to call it a "technique" or "procedure"...


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Melinda said:


> hmmm... I am not sure.. a poll would help. yeah


You get the game very quick.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Actually, that's exactly what this is - at least, I think that's what the OP intended to do. He's suggesting that German music is more structured, while music from the UK tends to be freer in form. Whether or not we agree with his claim (and I don't!), it might provide a useful starting point for comparing the two national traditions.


Yes, thanks Bettina, I've been very interested in the various responses to this question. While I realize it's a gross overgeneralization, I still think British music is a bit more free in form--at least what I'm familiar with, which is kind of limited to the Romantic era. At least the various responses have given me a lot to think about as I listen to composers from both Germany and the British Isles.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bruce said:


> This was just a thought I had, initiated by my own response to so much of British music. And I wondered if others had the same response, though it seems obviously not.
> 
> When I listen to music by Bax, Arnold, Parry, Ireland, Elgar, Delius, and Walton, I'm kind of baffled. It seems to me--and I emphasize that this is completely subjective--that the works of these composers are rather rhapsodic in character. They don't follow precise melodic formulations as I often hear in German works. (Though I'm aware that Delius was born in Germany.) German works seem to have more melodic structure to me. They're easier to follow, and the melodies find a place in my head a bit easier. For instance, I have no trouble remembering the main themes of all four Brahms symphonies, but I'd be at a loss to remember any of the themes Bax uses. When I listen to Elgar, so many of his themes just seem to meander off without the feeling of completeness.
> 
> So it seemed to me that much of the best known symphonic works by British composers were rhapsodic in nature, while many of the works I'm familiar with by German composers were less so. At any rate, the opinions of others expressed here will give me some food for thought as I continue to listen to works from both countries.


While you don't state what German composers you are meaning, I get the impression that you are comparing 20th century British music to 19th century German, which is hardly a reasonable comparison. What is interesting are the British composers who you don't mention. Incidentally, just what is a "precise melodic formulation"?


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Becca said:


> While you don't state what German composers you are meaning, I get the impression that you are comparing 20th century British music to 19th century German, which is hardly a reasonable comparison. What is interesting are the British composers who you don't mention. Incidentally, just what is a "precise melodic formulation"?


Yes, now that you mention it, I fear my comparisons might be a bit unfair. If I include Germanic composers like Schoenberg, Stockhausen and Reger, the comparison I was making really falls apart. Schoenberg and Reger remind me very much of the British composers I mentioned in the initial post. So does Wagner for that matter.

By precise melodic formulation, I was thinking of a melody that follows certain rules, similar to the way a literary work would follow the Aristotelian rules of unity of action, time and place. Translating this to music, I think of a precise melodic formulation as something that pretty much begins and ends on a tonic, or has a kind of arc of development through a prescribed series of tonal variants. I realize that this is something composers have struggled to overcome, making music much more interesting in the process. An example of what I mean could be found in Elgar's First Symphony. The main theme of the first movement just seems to quit in the middle to me without being resolved. On the other hand, his Pomp and Circumstance Marches seem to follow a rather more symmetrical plan. Many hymn tunes by various composers are also written in a simple, symmetrical fashion (which I understand Peter Maxwell-Davies really loathed.)

I don't mean to imply by this that such asymmetrical melodies are a bad thing. They make music much more interesting. But they seem to derive, at least to my ears, from a more rhapsodic treatment of melody, rather than a fugal treatment. Based on some of the historical writings I've read, I got the impression that the development of a system was more important in German culture than in British culture, and this made me wonder if a fugue, as a system of musical, melodic development, might have been more important for German composers than it was for British composers, who might have relied less on a systematic development of melody than German composers.

To revisit the idea that comparing 19th century German composers to 20th century British composers is unfair, or unrealistic, I still have to wonder if there were differences between the two countries which led British composers to write in a more rhapsodic style, while German composers wrote in a style which relied on a more systematic development. Certainly, however, as you make me realize, there were plenty of German composers who wrote in styles more similar to those of British composers in the 20th century. I'll have to start looking more closely at British composers in the 19th century for a more valid comparison.


----------



## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

No 'form' really belongs to certain countries . The fugue was also greatly improved by Shostakovich and the Russians. Rhapsodies are as much British as they are Scandinavian. Everything is relative .


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

*Uncle*

After reading the responses to this question, I'm forced to cry uncle. I give up. I have been backed into a corner. The prejudicial flaws in my thinking have been exposed, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a welcome gift. I'll certainly be listening to some British composers, especially from the 19th century, to re-evaluate my thoughts on this music.


----------



## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Stanford is one of my favorite British composers, regardless of era. Give him (another) try!


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

*Stanford (not the college)*



i like music said:


> Stanford is one of my favorite British composers, regardless of era. Give him (another) try!


I have heard Stanford's 3rd piano concerto, which I really liked, but this was a work completed by another composer. The only other works I've heard of Stanford were some of his organ sonatas, but I could not follow them at all. This was quite a few years ago, however, and since my listening skills have improved over the years, I'll certainly return to Stanford again soon. Thanks for the recommendation, and recalling this composer to mind! :tiphat: Whenever I hear that someone enjoys a particular composer, I'm always eager to give them a try, especially if I've not been particularly attracted to their work before. Makes me wonder what I missed.


----------



## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Speaking of Stanford, Hyperion is releasing a double-CD of his preludes for piano (opp. 163 & 179). These pieces are modeled after Bach (whom Stanford greatly admired) but are completely original and enhanced with the learning of the British "music renaissance" that took place in the late 19th to early 20th century.

I have already pre-ordered through Presto Classical. Here's the link: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA68183


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Bruce said:


> This was just a thought I had, initiated by my own response to so much of British music. And I wondered if others had the same response, though it seems obviously not.
> 
> When I listen to music by Bax, Arnold, Parry, Ireland, Elgar, Delius, and Walton, I'm kind of baffled. It seems to me--and I emphasize that this is completely subjective--that the works of these composers are rather rhapsodic in character. They don't follow precise melodic formulations as I often hear in German works. (Though I'm aware that Delius was born in Germany.) German works seem to have more melodic structure to me. They're easier to follow, and the melodies find a place in my head a bit easier. For instance, I have no trouble remembering the main themes of all four Brahms symphonies, but I'd be at a loss to remember any of the themes Bax uses. When I listen to Elgar, so many of his themes just seem to meander off without the feeling of completeness.
> 
> So it seemed to me that much of the best known symphonic works by British composers were rhapsodic in nature, while many of the works I'm familiar with by German composers were less so. At any rate, the opinions of others expressed here will give me some food for thought as I continue to listen to works from both countries.


Delius was from a German family, but he was born in Bradford, Yorkshire.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Delius was from a German family, but he was born in Bradford, Yorkshire.


Yes, so he was. He studied in Germany for a brief time; apparently I got a bit mixed up on the events of his life.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

For a rather diverse mix, try Granville Bantock, Edmund Rubbra and Michael Tippett


----------



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

British music (of the period mentioned by the OP) is more characterised by descriptions like 'pastoral' than anything else. A lot of the composers following or concurrent with Vaughan Williams (and Holst who didn't always compose in the vein of The Planets) pursued typically nostalgic material. Britten and some others dallied with 12-tone composition, but it never really produced a uniquely British sound that you can point to. Michael Tippet may have been a favourite of the avant-garde classical crowd (after Britten passed on), but his is not a name on the lips of people if you ask them to name a British composer.

The other side of a lot of British music is that of so-called 'Light Music' which was a typically British genre feeding off more serious work like that of Elgar mixed with safe 19th century music. I rather like it because it produced such gems as Eric Coates's _Dambusters March_ and Charles Williams's _Devil's Gallop_. The forms are fairly traditional though even though the pieces are often self-contained. I suppose some of them might be rhapsodies, but I couldn't name them off-hand.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

*Bantock, Rubbra and Tippett*



Becca said:


> For a rather diverse mix, try Granville Bantock, Edmund Rubbra and Michael Tippett


Yes, I find these all very interesting composers. Tippett especially--he reminds me a bit of Martinu with his rather diffuse harmonic structures. I've been working on his piano sonatas lately, and find them more fascinating with each audition. Rubbra's reminds me a lot of Bax, and I'm finally beginning to make some sense of his symphonic works; as I recall, his 5th symphony I found to be especially beautiful. Haven't had much chance to hear works by Bantock yet, but he's at least on my radar. So to speak. Thank you for the recommendations. Recommendations always tend to give a little kick to certain works and composers, moving them a bit farther up the list.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

*Coates, usw.*



eugeneonagain said:


> British music (of the period mentioned by the OP) is more characterised by descriptions like 'pastoral' than anything else. A lot of the composers following or concurrent with Vaughan Williams (and Holst who didn't always compose in the vein of The Planets) pursued typically nostalgic material. Britten and some others dallied with 12-tone composition, but it never really produced a uniquely British sound that you can point to. Michael Tippet may have been a favourite of the avant-garde classical crowd (after Britten passed on), but his is not a name on the lips of people if you ask them to name a British composer.
> 
> The other side of a lot of British music is that of so-called 'Light Music' which was a typically British genre feeding off more serious work like that of Elgar mixed with safe 19th century music. I rather like it because it produced such gems as Eric Coates's _Dambusters March_ and Charles Williams's _Devil's Gallop_. The forms are fairly traditional though even though the pieces are often self-contained. I suppose some of them might be rhapsodies, but I couldn't name them off-hand.


Eric Coates has written some very pleasant music; I'm most familiar with his London Every Day suite. Haven't run across Charles Williams, though. He sounds like an interesting name to investigate. Recently heard Holst's Symphony in F, which was a very pleasant surprise. Thanks!


----------

