# Ranking classical period: the brilliant, the fine/solid, the mediocre, the clumsy



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

This is a topic that has been puzzling me for some time so I'd like to raise a discussion about it. Of the works you've heard of from the classical period, what pieces would you call brilliant? What pieces would you call fine or very fine or perhaps merely solid/competent? What piece might be considered mediocre? What are just downright clumsy? So far I don't think I have heard any real stinkers, although some pieces don't get justice due to crappy recordings. This may be because the really boring stuff is simply ignored. There must be something though that's fallen through the cracks and someone had some delusion about(to put it cynically). I've heard some rather simple minded Salieri(some of his least interesting instrumental music) in comparison to Haydn or Mozart, but its still stuff that people would have to work hard to imitate, it takes good music theory knowledge, and its a light enjoyable listen.

Then again, there are plenty of people who have very high standards in harmonic variety due to the romantic period and Bach, for whom even a large portion of Haydn's works are boring and early Mozart is trivial. It may be that it takes more talent to compose in the limited classical idiom than they are giving it credit. So think within the classical terms.

Back to the original topic, to add interest to this discussion, lets review pieces and see what the consensus is.

First piece:





It has a rather uncompelling theme, but nice succinct development, no sequences are carried on too long, very proportional, and its pleasant. That's the start of a joint review.

Feel free to submit pieces and see what we all think, including what you think.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Sorry for so many links, you may ignore them and discuss the topic if you wish, but I thought they'd be an interesting aid.

Edit, I cut down to just one link, that might be best for this thread.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Just to bump this thread to the top, I want to let you all know, all those who checked it out, that I cut down to one link. I was tired last night and got carried away. Perhaps the discussion can be more focused now.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I listened twice to this clip, albeit during working hours, so not with the kind of attention I'd like to bring to it.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I enjoyed the first movement. I thought the crescendos in the three to four minute section were a bit unusual, and overall, I thought the orchestration was often distinctive.

There was one passage in the Larghetto that was almost romantic in feel, but I only noticed it one time and can't specify where it was (was in the midst of something at the time).

Sorry for the incomplete response.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

That's more comment than I gave it Vesteralen, thanks. Salieri was a good orchestrator due to his operatic roots. His opera overtures are probably a better representative. 

This perhaps adds new dimension, we can focus on different elements of music in ranking these pieces. I have plenty more composers/works that I'm curious to have reviews to.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I've looked at this thread a few times today, wondering whether or not to respond. I'm all for reviewing individual pieces you suggest, but asking me to tell you what I think is great/fine/crap is a bit of a minefield! So, anyway, here's my response to your Salieri video:

From the outset, the orchestration sounds promising, but I agree entirely that the theme is totally uncompelling (what theme?!). The development is succinct, but I don't think it's interesting. It sounded more like a sequence of sketches for accompaniments to themes. Then the section with the flute solo gave a promising theme, but utterly bland accompaniment!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I've looked at this thread a few times today, wondering whether or not to respond. I'm all for reviewing individual pieces you suggest, but asking me to tell you what I think is great/fine/crap is a bit of a minefield!
> 
> From the outset, the orchestration sounds promising, but I agree entirely that the theme is totally uncompelling (what theme?!). The development is succinct, but I don't think it's interesting. It sounded more like a sequence of sketches for accompaniments to themes. Then the section with the flute solo gave a promising theme, but utterly bland accompaniment!


Thanks for your feedback. I hope we can find a way to make this topic work, I'm not feeling coherent enough at the moment to figure out how. My teacher when he first heard this Salieri piece, found it intolerably dull. I personally find it enjoyable and pleasant enough for what its worth, as Vesteralen said. I'll give this piece some more time if anyone else wants to respond, and then we might perhaps move onto another piece. It may be a minefield, but I want to wing it.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Joseph Martin Kraus, nicknamed " The Swedish Mozart", composed a number of pieces that I really enjoy. Here's his Symphony in C sharp minor (unusual key for a classical composer, I think). The orchestration is pretty much flawless and the development is gripping and suspenseful. There's also a beautiful use of counterpoint throughout the entire piece.






What do you guys think?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

@Dodecaplex

Kraus's C Sharp Minor symphony, in my books is one of THE finest examples of the classical symphony, as is his C Minor symphony. They are both very similar works, in fact they seem to quote each other at times. Some of Kraus's symphonies, in a unique and non imitative way are as fine as the best of Haydn an Mozart's.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

And I'd like to introduce a work that I consider top notch, by Czech composer Leopold Kozeluch, it has incredible grace and a lot of excitement. Check out that modulation from A major to A minor to F major, and then right back to the second theme's key(a major). I also love the rhythm in this piece's main theme.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Very "Sturm und Drang". Personally, I have a weakness for this type of symphony, so I liked it a lot. It sounded a lot more assured than the Salieri and certainly required a lot less from the listener. Everything was kind of out there.

(Aacchhh... the examples are coming fast and furious now. My comment was referring to the Kraus piece.)


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> (Aacchhh... the examples are coming fast and furious now. My comment was referring to the Kraus piece.)


Alright, although it was selfish of me to post an example of my own, lets stick to one at a time. We are on Kraus right now. Save Kozeluch for next.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Dodecaplex said:


> Joseph Martin Kraus, nicknamed " The Swedish Mozart", composed a number of pieces that I really enjoy. Here's his Symphony in C sharp minor (unusual key for a classical composer, I think). The orchestration is pretty much flawless and the development is gripping and suspenseful. There's also a beautiful use of counterpoint throughout the entire piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rang a bell for The Black Mozart...

http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/page1.html


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