# Name the 5 most progressive composers of the 19th century



## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Or think of it this way.......name the 5 composers who had the most original ideas and went against the norm or fashion at the time. I can't even name my five yet until I do some serious thinking, but i know I will include Wagner, Beethoven, and Debussy. OK - there is three at least so far!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

To your three, chalkpie, I would add Liszt. In terms of being more known as a pianist and a composer of transcriptions in his time than as the great composer of some very original works that we know him for today. I'm talking about how the general public/listeners saw him at the time. His innovations began to make bigger impacts at the end of his long life.

Dunno about the 5th. I have to think, there's stiff competition for that spot. Could be Schubert (like Beethoven, writing his late quartets, piano sonatas & the 9th 'Great C Major' symphony not for his time but beyond it). Or maybe Tchaikovsky (for his innovations in many fields, esp. the symphony) or Bizet (for largely bringing about verismo opera with 'Carmen'). Perhaps Berlioz, but he did not directly influence the next generation of French composers (but he did influence Wagner). & even Brahms went against the "norm or fashion" of his time, in terms of turning his back on Wagner and all that. But Brahms is not a high octane innovator like Wagner, so it probably cancels him out from this type of 'club.' There's also Satie, who was already making an impact (on eg. Debussy) in the 1890's. . .


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

1. Berlioz.
2. Liszt.
3. Beethoven.
4. Wagner. 
5. Chopin.

My only partially educated opinion.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Sid - nice call on the Satie, and yes, I view Brahms as a conservative, almost an anti-Wagner, even though they hailed from the same place. Interesting to see Berlioz here - why was he progressive? Did he push the enelope in terms of harmonic structure or was it the idea of programmatic music?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Perhaps Berlioz, but he did not directly influence the next generation of French composers


I put Berlioz first because the question was not who was the most influential but rather the most progressive, original, against the grain, etc.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

chalkpie said:


> Sid - nice call on the Satie, and yes, I view Brahms as a conservative, almost an anti-Wagner, even though they hailed from the same place. Interesting to see Berlioz here - why was he progressive? Did he push the enelope in terms of harmonic structure or was it the idea of programmatic music?


Programmatic music, the idee fixe, probably the most original orchestrator _ever_, the sheer, unprecedented 'bigness' of some of his works, the imagination, the creativity... He practially opened up a whole new world of expression, one that was essential for the flowering of Romanticism in music.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

OK, in no order, here are my official five:

Beethoven
Wagner
Debussy
Sibelius
Satie

Ives just missed the boat, as his truly original music blossomed after 1900, and I'm afraid I personally cannot include Berlioz, largely due to my own unfamiliarity with his tunes, but this thread and his name being mentioned will have me step back and really check him out. Even though I am still in my exploratory phase with Sibelius, I think he needs to be included here - a true original and nothing sounds remotely close to the pieces he wrote prior to 1900.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Wagner
Beethoven
Debussy / Ravel
Tchaikovsky (for orchestration and ballet music)
Schubert (for lieder)


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

chalkpie said:


> OK, in no order, here are my official five:
> 
> Beethoven
> Wagner
> ...


Listen to this - one of very many examples - written 3 years after the death of Beethoven, 2 years after the death of Schubert and when the most active composers were (early) Mendelssohn, Bellini, (early) Chopin, etc. Something like this had simply never been written before, I don't believe.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Surely Bruckner belongs on a list of the most progressive composers of the 19th century . His symphonies are without a doubt the most original of his time ; the most structurally unconventional , the most harmonically daring . In particular, his unfinished (or was it?) 9th anticipates 20th century harmony to an amazing degree , even forshadowing Schoenberg and his school .


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I was very close to adding Bruckner to my list, but ultimately I decided that the art song was more important. Tough call.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

superhorn said:


> His symphonies are without a doubt the most original of his time ; the most structurally unconventional , the most harmonically daring.


I would say Liszt for the most harmonically daring, Berlioz for the most structurally unconventional and most original overall.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

in no particular order:

Debussy
Satie
Tchaikovsky
Liszt
Chopin


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

My choices... in no particular order:

L.v. Beethoven
Richard Wagner
Hector Berlioz
Franz Liszt
Claude Debussy

Programmatic music, the idee fixe, probably the most original orchestrator ever, the sheer, unprecedented 'bigness' of some of his works, the creativity... He practially opened up a whole new world of expression, one that was essential for the flowering of Romanticism in music.

He also clearly builds on Beethoven's 9th and pushes further the blurring of the symphony with vocal forms, messes about with the traditional concept of what constitutes an "opera", originates the orchestral song cycle with _Les Nuits d'été_, etc...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Beethoven, Wagner, Liszt, Berlioz, maybe Tchaikovsky. I agree the French e.g. Debussy and Ravel were but a significant part of their works crossed into the 20th century.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

My opinion on the order of how extreme they were:

1. Beethoven(where he began to where he ended off was quite a distance and he singlehandedly changed so much of what composers were allowed to do)
2. Wagner(the second edgiest work of the 19th century, Tristan und Isolde, broughtforth widespread expansion of tonality and scope in music)
3. Liszt(constantly on the edge throughout his long and prolific career, the late works are off the 19h century map completely, more revolutionary than anything Debusssy did in that century, I daresay, though less influential)
4. Berlioz(the single edgiest work of the 19th century(opinion of course), Symphonie Fantastique, pushing it further with others like Damnation of Faust)
5. Mussorgsky(though not prolific and altogether a sucess, his harmonic language is so strikingly original, especially in the original Night on Bald Mountain(criticized by all his colleagues) and his opera)

Bruckner and Debussy in at 6th.

Honorable mentions to Richard Strauss, and Mahler, who came out right at the end of the century with crazy things in different ways, as well as Brahms who almost anticipated neoclassicism. 

Also, I see the Mussorgsky has not yet been mentioned and anyone who has heard the original Night on Bald Mountain or his opera would concede that he was possibly one of the most o


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I would make a case for von Weber based on the impact Der Freischutz had on future composers but presumably his output in general didn't have enough 'strength in depth' for him to be a firm consideration.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Y'all are forgetting Carl Maria von Weber. His opera Der Freischutz is considered to be one of, if not the first truly Romantic operas. It's heavey emphasis on the supernatural and folk setting influenced many later composers, not the least of which was Big Dick Wagner. It is instructive to compare Freischutz with the Bel Canto operas that were all the rage at the time (1821) or with Beethovens Fidelio. Freischutz is part of the same artistic impulse that spawned Frankenstein in 1818 and in 1830 Mendelssohns Fingals Cave and Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. It is interesting to note that Mozart was pointing in that direction with the last act of Don Giovani.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Freischutz overture




Wolfs Glen scene beginning. Please ignore the bunny




Wolfs Glen scene end




Hunstmans chorus


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2012)

chalkpie said:


> my own unfamiliarity


You have just encapsulated the principal quality of online threads.

Oh well. So long as the goal is to overcome unfamiliarity!!


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

In time order...

1. Beethoven (Putting emotional element)
2. Berlioz (Advancing Beethoven's path to a new degree)
3. Wagner (Improving Opera and some orchestral aspects)
4. Liszt (New themes and darker compositions)
5. Dvorak (His late works and Encouraging American music)

Honorable mentions:

Bruckner, Mahler, Mussorgsky


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

1. Wagner


2. Liszt
3. Beethoven
4. Bruckner
5. Berlioz

I think that Beethoven is too Classically grounded to get the top place (just in terms of progressiveness of course). Wagner just sat down and invented new stuff, new stuff which works to this day. Liszt and Berlioz it seems to me invented more, but many of their ideas didn't really catch on.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Debussy, Wagner, Liszt, Beethoven... but what about Smetana?

1859 if i'm correct





or Fanelli?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Fanelli


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

I don't think that Bruckner was 'progressive' at all (and I'm no Bruckner-basher!). He was a devotee and follower of the great Wagnerian tradition, but certainly no 'progressive'. 'Progressive' composers tend to induce many followers and imitators - not too many composers who 'followed' Bruckner.

The top two 'progressive' composers of the 19th century HAVE to be Beethoven and Wagner - without either or both of these composers, 19th-century music would have developed far differently. Does Liszt really say anything Wagner didn't? He made a lot more noise, certainly, but I don't think that, if you took Liszt away from 19th-century music, you'd miss him (take away Wagner, on the other hand...).

Debussy has to be on the list - 'modern' music began with his _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_, after all and his harmonic innovation paved the way for other composers such as Messiaen, Stravinsky and Varèse.

Berlioz also has to be on the list. He was the first great Romantic (well Weber was really, but he wasn't the revolutionary Berlioz was) and when you consider that Beethoven had only been dead for three years when _Symphonie fantastique_ was first performed, one gets a feel for Berlioz's importance in context.

So, who gets the fifth spot? Sibelius, I'd say. Even his early works were starting to stretch and redefine formal parameters. So, there you have mine (in alphabetical order only):

Beethoven
Berlioz
Debussy
Sibelius
Wagner


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Delicious Manager said:


> Does Liszt really say anything Wagner didn't? He made a lot more noise, certainly, but I don't think that, if you took Liszt away from 19th-century music, you'd miss him (take away Wagner, on the other hand...).


Really? Wagner's music is full of Lisztian harmony. He admitted himself that his treatment of harmony had changed after spending time with Liszt's music. Liszt was probably THE most harmonically advanced composer of the 19th century, and even though it was Wagner who got all the 'credit,' many of the ideas he had were influenced by Liszt - to the extent where I think that, as far as harmony goes, Liszt deserves to be mentioned as the more progressive composer (not to mention his later works, that foreshadow impressionism and come close to atonality). "Does Liszt even say anything Wagner didn't?" Obviously, he did, seeing as the majority of Liszt's compositions are piano works (where his influence and level of 'progression' is enormous), his tone poems were among the most progressive and important compositions of the 19th century and the influence they had on the next generation was huge. Did Wagner write any tone poems? No. And as for Liszt making more 'noise,' well that isn't even true.

To say that 19th century music wouldn't have developed far differently without Liszt is just plain false. The tone poems of Strauss, Sibelius, and others who excelled in the genre, would have been unthinkable without Liszt's example. They were epoch making works, and both Strauss and Mahler, let alone the Russian composers, studied them extensively. The world of piano composition would have been far different - he was probably the most significant force in extending the possibilities of the piano. His art songs were also very important and progessive, influencing later composers in the genre, as were his organ works. It was Bartok who said that Liszt was the first modernist in music.

Then later on you say "Even his early works were starting to stretch and redefine formal parameters" about Sibelius...Liszt was exactly the same, hell probably more radical in his use of cyclical and double function form.

We would miss Liszt a great deal in this way, and for me it's for his great music more than any innovation.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

My only partially educated opinion agrees with Lisztian's list:



Lisztian said:


> 1. Berlioz.
> 2. Liszt.
> 3. Beethoven.
> 4. Wagner.
> ...


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think Bruckner paved the way for Mahler. That is progressive to me.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

Nielsen. Though some works fell into 1900s.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2012)

Tero said:


> Nielsen. Though some works fell into 1900s.


Some? And some of Bartok's works fell into the 1900s. And some of Stravinsky's. And some of Ives'.

Nielsen was a twentieth century composer. Most of his works, practically all of his major ones, fell into the 1900s.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I just realized that Also Sprach Zarathrusta came out in 1896. Strauss certainly ranks in with his 1890s innovations, and yes, Mahler and Sibelius too, though I don't think they were as crazy as Strauss.

John Field and Hummel made solid advancements in piano writing that were capitolized upon and furthered by Chopin. Chopin's etudes were quite revolutionary. Weber was certainly among Field and Hummel in the piano writing as well, but going further with orchestral works.

I feel bad about not putting Berlioz as no. 1 initially. I just placed priority on those composers who made more widespread and influential advancements, even though Berlioz was sometimes outright experimental compared to them all, only to be matched by the likes of Mahler and Strauss in the late 19th.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I also think the influence of Schumann's symponies in the first half of the 19th century on composers like Brahms and even Wagner, is underestimated. His piano music, though more original, did not influence contemporaries or successive composers as much, though Russian piano composers and Impressionism owes something to Schumann.

In terms of influence alone, Mendlessohn managed to hold his own with solid writing to influence later composers like Tchaikovsky, who fed into the Russian tradition and here we are.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

From our perspective and based on the different criteria each one of us may rely upon, any composer who lived even for awhile in the 19th century could be baptized as "progressive". The point is who was _then_ properly and widely recognized as such and he has established a name for his "innovative" works. Most probably Wagner, possibly Beethoven...maybe Liszt or Berlioz. In any case, we need enough evidence from the sources of that time...mostly.

Principe


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

principe said:


> The point is who was _then_ properly and widely recognized as such and he has established a name for his "innovative" works.


Well, straight out of Berlioz's Memoirs, on his reflections of himself as a young man he cites Beethoven, Rossini, and Weber as who he percieved to be the "modernists." Of course, its Berlioz and he's more interested in the orchestra, opera, and big choruses and less in piano, chamber, and non operatic style vocal music.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Building on what others have said, I'll select - 

Weber - tied for fifth 
Beethoven
Liszt
Wagner
Satie - tied for fifth 
Debussy 

Berlioz.... I have to learn more about that guy. But one that I'll throw out there is Mussorgsky. Seems that his originality is a bit overlooked.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2012)

Beethoven - added passion to classical forms
Berlioz - ignored classical forms and just made stuff up (especially S. Fant. and Harold in Italy)
Chopin - greatly expanded the range emotional expression
Wagner - added megalomania to the mix !!!
Borodin - a pioneer of musical nationalism and exoticism

and honorable mention:
Alkan - funeral march for a dead parrot - anticipated Monty Python by more than 100 years


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

BPS said:


> and honorable mention:
> Alkan - funeral march for a dead parrot - anticipated Monty Python by more than 100 years


That Alkan guy...


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## GenField (8 mo ago)

Lisztian said:


> 1. Berlioz.
> 2. Liszt





Lisztian said:


> 1. Berlioz.
> 2. Liszt.
> 3. Beethoven.
> 4. Wagner.
> ...


Beethoven after Liszt? Dont be silly


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

In my view: Beethoven, Berlioz, Liszt, Wagner and Debussy (in chronological order).


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Beethoven
Berlioz
Wagner
Mahler (first three symphonies)
Debussy


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Beethoven
Wagner
Chopin
Brahms
Liszt


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

No Schoenberg? If you're going by where their main body of work falls chronologically, then you're giving chronology a more important role in determining your choices than to other criteria, such as the early emergence of originality.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

Beethoven: OF COURSE!

Wagner: Dah!

Brahms: Sometimes progression means sticking to the roots without losing your distinct fingerprint. 

Schubert: His 15th string quartet is something like nothing else. Alas, Why did Schubert die too soon!

Bruckner: freed the form of symphony from the grips of Beethoven.


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Liszt
Wagner
Chopin
Debussy
Berlioz


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Too many. One of CM's chief characteristics is innovation.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

1. Liszt
2. Wagner
3. Beethoven
4. Debussy
5. Chopin

Berlioz gets an HM.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

the whole problem here is how you define 19th century. I would class as 20th century those whose most important works are 20th century which would include Sibelius, Nielsen, Debussy, Mahler etc. 
Beethoven and Wagner are the two big names for the 19th who can't possibly be ignored. The others you can quibble over.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

*Liszt* ... influenced Bruckner, Wagner and many others. Extended the development section of sonata format beyond any realm ever known in both orchestral and piano music. His choral symphonies were models for Mahler. Invented the symphonic poem. Visionary as well as influential and revolutionary.

*Wagner* ... took Liszt's expansions and created music-scene-drama, the modern forerunner of what we know today as theatrical film music.

*Beethoven* though he belonged more to the 18th century. His late works, especially the piano sonatas and string quartets, challenged the limits of instruments and his _Missa Solemnis_ challenged the limits of singers. Invented the choral symphony successfully copied by Liszt, Mendelssohn, Mahler and many others. May have invented the first song cycle.

*Schubert* for what he did to song, poetry, literature and story-telling in music. He may have invented the song cycle though Beethoven's _An die ferne Geliebte_ is generally credited as the first. But his lied and song cycles became a combination of Grimm's Fairy Tales and operatic story-telling.

Vying for No. 5 ... *Weber* the first romantic, *Johann Nepomuk Hummel *who invented "greatest hits" music a century before it came to popular music, *Debussy* for what he did to chromaticism and musical line, *Berlioz* whose _Fantastic Symphony _and behemoth compositions outsized anything ever known to the time. Without _Les Troyens_ there could never have been Wagner's _Ring_. *Cherubini *who made his name in opera but is remembered for dramatic religious music. He influenced Beethoven whose _Missa Solemnis _is modeled after his _Requiem_ and _In Paradisum_.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Giacomo Meyerbeer deserves at least a thought. Not only was he the father of grand opera, but he's known for his theatrical innovations, which Wagner in particular learned a good deal from.
Offenbach, with his satirical, parodical, and witty musical observations/commentaries in his operettas (in its nascent form, no less), is also worth a thought.


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