# Was Händel a German or English composer?



## Hunt Stromberg (Sep 6, 2021)

I watched a film about him last night, all about his triumphs in England and how he was conferred English citizenship. His music has "Englishness" to me, with some definite influences from Purcell, but it was also Italianate and German. Was he really "English" and should he be included in the pantheon with other "English" composers like Purcell (whom I regard as the greatest English composer)?


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, was Joseph Conrad English or Polish?

Is Tom Stoppard English or Czech?

Was Stravinsky Russian, French or American?

Handel was a German-born Italianate English composer.


----------



## 1846 (Sep 1, 2021)

MarkW said:


> Handel was a German-born Italianate English composer.


That is the correct answer.


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Yes............


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think its hard to answer that question, but that is explained by Handel's uniqueness. Its normal for people to go where the work is today, but back then it was far less common. He spent most of his life in England, became a citizen and was buried at Westminster. At the same time, his early life in what's now called Germany - which back then wasn't yet a nation but a bunch of independent kingdoms - and even the few years he spent in Italy made big marks on his musical style. He was a fully formed as an artist by the time he reached London. In his adopted country, he left a strong legacy in the choral realm, and his impact on the continent was by no means negligible.


----------



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Handel - a German born, Italian trained composer who began his English Oratorio, Messiah, with a French Overture.


Also, he's buried in Westminster Abbey so he's a German who became English.....but then so was his boss. George I (English) was originally the Elector of Hannover (German/HRE).

Its horses for courses, (BTW, that's an English saying).


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

MarkW said:


> Handel was a German-born Italianate English composer.


Indeed. ..........................


----------



## Hunt Stromberg (Sep 6, 2021)

A bit like Brahms and Beethoven, then. Both lived in Vienna for 30 years or so but both still regarded as German composers. There's quite a lot of Hungarian gypsy music in Brahms, probably because he was friendly with a Hungarian and also because he lived in the imperial city of the Habsburg empire which, of course, included Hungary.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Was Händel a German or English composer?*



Hunt Stromberg said:


> ... Was he really "English" and should he be included in the pantheon with other "English" composers like Purcell (whom I regard as the greatest English composer)?





MarkW said:


> Well, ...
> Handel was a German-born Italianate English composer.





Sid James said:


> I think its hard to answer that question, but that is explained by Handel's uniqueness. ...





Olias said:


> Handel - a German born, Italian trained composer who began his English Oratorio, Messiah, with a French Overture.
> 
> Also, he's buried in Westminster Abbey so he's a German who became English.....but then so was his boss. George I (English) was originally the Elector of Hannover (German/HRE).
> 
> Its horses for courses, (BTW, that's an English saying).


So ... did we get a _handle_ on this issue, or not?


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Sid James said:


> I think its hard to answer that question, but that is explained by Handel's uniqueness. Its normal for people to go where the work is today, but back then it was far less common.


For composers/musicians it was actually not that uncommon. Joh. Chr. Bach had a similar trajectory (Germany, Italy, Britain) a few decades later. Or Boccherini, from Italy to Spain to France. Also D. Scarlatti, Clementi,...
Many composers in the 17th and 18th century went to Italy for study or work for some years and many Italians had lucrative positions at central European courts (or in the most important cities, Paris, London and at the end of the 18th century also Vienna).
The main difference between Handel and countless similar careers is how high he rose in Britain and how important he remained after his death. And that such an important part of his oeuvre is in the English language.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Handel had a typically trenchant answer for those (and there were a number) who cast doubt on his Englishness during his lifetime: "Gentlemen, you were born English, but I am English by choice." I feel sure he would have acknowledged all the influences referred to above, but he himself was in no doubt about where he stood.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Händel was an English composer who was German.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Are we talking nationality as in whether he gets chalked up as a great English composer or not? Or are we talking which musical traditions he drew from? Or perhaps which traditions he contributed to?

The mature Handel (most of the works we know) had settled in England and significantly developed new English forms, particularly with the Messiah and his many dramatic oratorios (all set in English). Before that his great operas were written and premiered in England but were in Italian as was the London fashion at the time. He abandoned (Italianate) operas for dramatic oratorios in response to changing English fashions and rules. He could have moved on and continued writing Italian operas somewhere else but he stayed and developed something new. 

Before going to England he had written great music during his Italian phase. There is not much that is Germanic in his musical makeup although he was born a German and I suppose his concertos and sonatas have German foundations. 

Let's chalk him up as a European!


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Handel spent most of his life in England - he was 27 when he permanently moved here and had Queen Anne lived longer (she died in 1714) it's probable that she would have lobbied the House of Lords to grant him British citizenship far earlier than when the act was passed enabling him to take it (1727). Handel had already provided music for the Court of St. James's and Anne had awarded Handel a yearly retainer. It was also probably fortuitous for Handel that he had served as _kapellmeister_ to George of Hanover before the latter was lined up to succeed the increasingly infirm Queen Anne to the British throne after the death of his aged mother, Sophia. If Handel considered himself British even before he became officially British then that's good enough for me, but I don't know what his thoughts were on the subject.


----------



## Symphonic (Apr 27, 2015)

Handel was certainly German.
Though, he can also be considered to be German-British.

However, he is certainly not English alone.

So,
German : Yes. 
German-British : Yes.
English :No.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Symphonic said:


> Handel was certainly German.
> Though, he can also be considered to be German-British.
> 
> However, he is certainly not English alone.
> ...


He created and developed English music (even the operas which are in Italian) which is what matters. I don't think it is worthwhile looking into his nationality as such. Not without a lot of research into what nationality meant back then.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> Before going to England he had written great music during his Italian phase. There is not much that is Germanic in his musical makeup although he was born a German and I suppose his concertos and sonatas have German foundations.


His musical education was German/Protestant church music and his first real job was at the Hamburg opera before he went to Italy. There was a bunch of trios sonatas ascribed to the teenaged Handel, but they are almost certainly not by him and also were composed much later than ca. 1700. Like everyone else's at the time his later sonatas and concertos are more influenced by Corelli and Vivaldi than by any German. Besides the Brockes-Passion, the harpsichord music is probably the most "German" although there are also some rather "italian" pieces, e.g. the F major suite (that is in the form a church sonata).


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Fair enough and I know about the influence of Corelli (and perhaps Vivaldi) but they influenced Bach and other Germans, too. What I hear when I listen to the Op. 4, Op. 6 or Op. 7, for example, is more German than Italian. But this is not scholarship on my part (that would be beyond me): it is the impression I get.


----------



## Hunt Stromberg (Sep 6, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> He created and developed English music (even the operas which are in Italian) which is what matters. I don't think it is worthwhile looking into his nationality as such. Not without a lot of research into what nationality meant back then.


It meant that Bach was German even though Germany was at that time a collection of confederated princedoms until the Unification.


----------



## Symphonic (Apr 27, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> He created and developed English music (even the operas which are in Italian) which is what matters. I don't think it is worthwhile looking into his nationality as such. Not without a lot of research into what nationality meant back then.


Rather, I would attribute those professions towards Henry Purcell - who came before Handel


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Is this important?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Is this important?


Well, if you ask an Englishman with "traditional musical values" yes. Ask me and I'll tell you people are seriously deluded.


----------



## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Georg Friedrich Händel was a german composer.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Fair enough and I know about the influence of Corelli (and perhaps Vivaldi) but they influenced Bach and other Germans, too. What I hear when I listen to the Op. 4, Op. 6 or Op. 7, for example, is more German than Italian. But this is not scholarship on my part (that would be beyond me): it is the impression I get.


I think the late baroque German composers Bach, Handel, Telemann all wrote most of their chamber/orchestral music in a "mixed style" with Italian, French and "German" elements. There is an anecdote that the young Handel in Italy took over the conducting when Corelli led an ouverture of Handel's that was in the French Style and the Italian master did it wrong.

But outside church and organ music it's not so easy to tell what the (north/central, i.e. Lutheran) "German" style is supposed to be. The closest connections are probably in other keyboard music. I have nor researched this further but there is a very common feature in most Bach and Handel keyboard suites to start the second part of a gigue with the inversion of the theme; apparently this occurs in Buxtehude already and seems a bit of a German tradition.
But their chamber music is rather different from mid-late 17th century stylus phantasticus (like Buxtehude). I think for Bach's concerti it is easier because they are basically contrapunctally beefed up Vivaldi style whereas Handel's (and Telemann's) are more mixed (Bach's suites and ouvertures are also more "mixed" than his concerti, I think)

In older literature one finds the idea that Handel's op.6 emulated Corelli because the latters music was very popular in Britain (supposedly even in the second half of the 18th century) but a few years ago I read an essay by Siegbert Rampe (harpsichordist and musicologist) who claimed that they were far more modern than Corelli and points out to some similarities with more contemporary (1730s) and even later (such as Bach sons) music.

The real achievement of Handel seems to me the fusion of English and German vocal/representational/church music with the drama from Italian opera. This is the style of the oratorios (and maybe already of the Chandos and other Anthems).


----------



## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

I always think of his as German (though I'm not sure 'Germany' is an accurate historical place name for that time) who became a British national. 
Moreover, I just think of him as Händel.


----------



## Musicaterina (Apr 5, 2020)

I think he was both. He was born in Germany and made his first compositions there but spent a long time of his life in England. And his years in Italy (where he composed the "Dixit Dominus") also should not be forgotten. His operas were mainly written in Italian. Perhaps he was simply a European composer.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> The real achievement of Handel seems to me the fusion of English and German vocal/representational/church music with the drama from Italian opera. This is the style of the oratorios (and maybe already of the Chandos and other Anthems).


Saying that Handel was "German in style" cause he was good at counterpoint is like saying Giovanni Battista Martini was German cause he was good at counterpoint. And if we were to define "18th century, Germanic" by this:


hammeredklavier said:


> "On the other hand, for the French, Mozart was certainly not 'one of us' from a national point of view. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, before Berlioz's time, some influential critics - for instance, Julien-Louis Geoffroy - rejected Mozart as a foreigner, considering his music 'scholastic', stressing his use of harmony over melody, and the dominance of the orchestra over singing in the operas - all these were considered negative features of 'Germanic' music."
> -an excerpt from 'Mozartian Undercurrents in Berlioz' (Benjamin Pearl)


one could argue Handel isn't even a good representative of the Germanic style; cause he's very lightweight in terms of use of harmony compared to Bach, for instance.

-----



Kreisler jr said:


> I think the late baroque German composers Bach, Handel, Telemann all wrote most of their chamber/orchestral music in a "mixed style" with Italian, French and "German" elements. There is an anecdote that the young Handel in Italy took over the conducting when Corelli led an ouverture of Handel's that was in the French Style and the Italian master did it wrong... (bla bla)


Actually, I'm baffled why you're trying to make such a big issue out of this particular topic with all those long paragraphs. The differences in their supposed "national styles" (in all their "samey-sounding" instrumental suites and concertos) were really not that remarkable compared to that of:



Kreisler jr said:


> The main point is not Mozart but that the whole classical period should not be conceived with national styles, like one might claim in the late 19th century.


-----



Kreisler jr said:


> In older literature one finds the idea that Handel's op.6 emulated Corelli because the latters music was very popular in Britain (supposedly even in the second half of the 18th century) but a few years ago I read an essay by Siegbert Rampe (harpsichordist and musicologist) who claimed that they were far more modern than Corelli and points out to some similarities with more contemporary (1730s) and *even later (such as Bach sons) music.*


Handel was just not "modern" enough to be "compatible" with the Bach sons; he's very much "stuck" in the Doctrine of the Affections. 
What exactly are the "similarities" of his idiom with the Bach sons'?
Listen to this persistent continuity of rhythm, this is a practice you can find _anywhere_ in the old Baroque idiom:





There's nothing compatible about Handel's style with the Bach sons in this regard.



hammeredklavier said:


> *Wilhelm Friedemann Bach Sinfonia for strings in F major "Dissonant", F. 67 (circa. 1735-1740)*
> "The symphonic form as it is now known was nascent. W.F. Bach already begins to break away from the Baroque tendency to keep a continuous flow of the same tempo and mood within a given movement in this sinfonia, which is sometimes listed as his Symphony No. 1. (It is the first published in a collection of the five symphonies left from the Dresden years.) The opening movement is marked Vivace. It starts in a straightforward manner in longer note values that make the music seem marked and heavy. The tonal bottom falls out when the unison string melody unexpectedly drops to a note that is not in the main key and the tempo holds for a second or two. Then the perceived tempo suddenly increases to a vivace. Such odd shifts of key and tempo occur irregularly throughout the movement, surprising the listener. Many in Bach's audience would have thought these effects bizarre. The slow movement, an Andante, has the quality of a tender operatic love aria and is fairly expansive in proportions. Its mood is calm and ardent and it could be a serenade. The next movement, Allegro, is a fast romp that would be taken as a concluding movement, but the true last movement are two graceful minuets."
> https://www.allmusic.com/compositio...-in-f-major-dissonant-f-67-br-c2-mc0002658701















Remember, in the second half of the 18th century, 


hammeredklavier said:


> Even the British themselves called Handel's music "ancient" (as did Mozart), played his music very sparingly, and did it only in "Concerts of Antient Music".


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Saying that Handel was "German in style" cause he was good at counterpoint is like saying Giovanni Battista Martini was German cause he was good at counterpoint. And if we were to define "18th century, Germanic" by this:


You might be saying this. I didn't say any of this but was far more specific. I wrote that Handel had the *central German Lutheran church music education* (with Zachow in Halle), basically the same as the teenaged Bach received as well as Telemann and many other of their contemporaries. This is just the historical fact.
It is not "nationalist" but regional. As I wrote above, I doubt that it is easy to show this influence except maybe in organ/keyboard music (because Handel wrote basically only one German choral piece, the Brockes passion, and this was after he had been in Italy and England already, ""Esther" and the Passion borrow from each other). Although Handel wrote very little for organ, except the later concerti, he was famous in Italy for organ playing and wrote maybe the first short piece with concertante organ, namely a sinfonia in the early oratorio "Il trionfo..." but except for the use of the organ this seems stylistically Italian. I also do not know if the Hamburg opera and Keiser can be ascribed a particular style or slight differences from Italian opera.

As for the other rather unimportant point about the late concerti grossi, I am certainly not reading up and summarizing Rampe's essay for you, it's in here if anyone is interested:
"Georg Friedrich Händel und seine Zeit"
ed. Siegbert Rampe
ISBN 978-3-921518-93-9


----------



## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

................................................................


----------



## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> You might be saying this. I didn't say any of this but was far more specific. I wrote that Handel had the *central German Lutheran church music education* (with Zachow in Halle), basically the same as the teenaged Bach received as well as Telemann and many other of their contemporaries. This is just the historical fact.


Does this mean that Bach, Handel and all the composers that followed them are fruits of the reformation?


----------

