# Schumann, Schumann



## lostid (Aug 13, 2012)

I haven't found anything from Schumann sound bad. His cello and piano concertos are among my top favorites. His chamber music is ear-pleasing. 

I must admit I have not listened to his symphonies. Which one of his symphonies to begin?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

There's only four. Just pick one and start listening. :tiphat:


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Schumann's music took me a very long time to appreciate. Though I always liked Carnaval, I couldn't stomach much else.

The symphonies were my latter-day gateway into Schumann mania. As TC'ers well know, I'm more than a little bonkers over him, it's an obsession.  Pick any of them and let the music set in.

I hope you enjoy!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Vesuvius said:


> There's only four. Just pick one and start listening. :tiphat:


What about the unfinished "Zwickau" Symhoiny in G Minor? I don't listen to it much, myself. Can never go wrong with Schumann in general, though.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I'm particularly fond of the C major Second, myself, but that's an odd opinion for sure.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm starting to get into Schumann as well. Listening to him now actually. For his Symphonies, try Gardiner's performance. I like his 1st Symphony. But he is amazingly consistent. They all are enjoyable.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

lostid said:


> I haven't found anything from Schumann sound bad. His cello and piano concertos are among my top favorites. His chamber music is ear-pleasing.
> 
> I must admit I have not listened to his symphonies. Which one of his symphonies to begin?


All his symphonies are unbelievable. My personal favorite is the 3rd.... Here is a taste of it:


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I like all 4 of his symphonies, and I think experts/critics agree. The 4th is overplayed at the expense of the other three, so make sure you listen to all 4.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah I guess his 4th is the most popular one.


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

Most everyone has the Spring Symphony or the 4th Symphony as their favorite. Personally, the Rhenish is mine.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I'm particularly fond of the C major Second, myself, but that's an odd opinion for sure.


Why odd? It's my favorite too and nobody does the triumphal ending of movement four like Karajan!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I'm starting to get into Schumann as well. Listening to him now actually. For his Symphonies, try Gardiner's performance. I like his 1st Symphony. But he is amazingly consistent. They all are enjoyable.


I am an equal opportunity liker of Schumann's symphonies, and also prefer Gardiner's recordings. His set also has the original version of the 4th, which I prefer to the more usual 1851 version. Brahms had to fight Clara to include this in his complete edition!


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## lostid (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks guys I will start listening to his symphonies soon. These days I listen too much chamber music not just Schumann's.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I certainly share your appreciation of Schumann's music - I've been listening to his solo piano and his chamber music a lot over the past 3 or 4 years. I find it is worth going 'off piste' into his less well known works - I have several 'ear worms' as a result of my 'discoveries'.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I have yet to find the Schumann symphonies as rewarding as his piano works, songs and chamber works. I will keep listening. 

Coincidentally, I am the opposite of Novellete. Once I got into Schumann, I took to all his piano works EXCEPT Carnaval. I don't know what it is about that piece but I'm not too fond of it. It sounds...frivolous?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like the Rhenish symphony best of the four (five).


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I've started with the 3rd and it is my favorite, but I like the others too. The 1st movement of the 3rd is right up there with the "Meistersinger" prelude in my list of "energy drinks for the soul".


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2014)

lostid said:


> I haven't found anything from Schumann sound bad. His cello and piano concertos are among my top favorites. His chamber music is ear-pleasing.
> 
> I must admit I have not listened to his symphonies. Which one of his symphonies to begin?


I have adored Schumann for many years. In fact there's not another composer who appears in most of the "top 20" composer lists one sees bandied about that I have spent more time listening to, with the possible exception of Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert.

No list of Schumann's works is remotely complete without his symphonies. They are delightful and definitely worth adding to any decent collection if they are not already included. There are several very good sets of Schumann's symphonies. I have six complete sets altogether with several one-offs of individual symphonies. For starters, I would be tempted to go for the Sawallish/Dresden Staatskapelle set. This set is generally held in high esteem, and you will not go far wrong with it. If later you might want a more "period" flavour then the John Eliot Gardiner/ORR set is excellent. Zinman with the Zurich Tonhalle is also very good, as too is Karajan/BPO.

Be warned that there seems to be one or two characters on this forum who come out now and then to assert that that they either don't like Schumann (even on threads like this one) or that Schumann's orchestration ability was poor, and that this shows up especially in his symphonies. However, that view is "old hat" and just shows how misinformed some folk are on this topic. In this context it is sometimes cited that Gustav Mahler, many years later, tinkered about with Schumann's symphonies in an attempt to improve what was perceived by some to be his poor orchestration, as it was fashionable at that time to view Schumann's ability in this area as being somewhat dicey. Mahler liked Schumann's work but thought it needed a bit of tinkering to bring it out a its best.

Riccardo Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra has recorded this "Mahler" set. These are a bit brighter and clearer in places, more "sparkly" if you like. Some people prefer this re-working, but for me I find that I prefer the pure "unadulterated" original Schumann. In fact, modern scholarship is that there is little if anything "wrong" or "bad" about Schumann's orchestration. It is not the best by any means but is perfectly good enough once due allowance is made for the kind of orchestra size and composition that Schumann was familiar with in his own times. Several modern renditions of his symphonies try to make allowances where appropriate by adjusting the number and positioning of instruments to get better colors and less thick textures than might otherwise be the case, and they generally manage to do so very well as I doubt that you would find anything obviously poor about them. Once you get into this subject more deeply you might find that you prefer Schumann's own first version of his Symphony No 4, which he first wrote in 1841 but later revised following some criticism of it. Among others, JEG has recorded this earlier version it, and it sounds very good indeed.

Just sticking with orchestral music, and leaving aside the Piano and Cello Concertos, there is loads of other extremely good material by Schumann that you should aim to acquire as soon as you can. I would mention the following main ones:

Op 52 - Overture, Scherzo, Finale
Op 73 - Fantasiestucke
Op 81 - Overture to Genoveva
Op 100 - Overture to Schiller's Braut von Messina
Op 115 - Overture to Byron's Manfred
Op 128 - Overture to Shakespeare's Julius Caeser
Op 86 - Konzertstück for four horns and orchestra
Op 92 - Konzertstück (Introduction & Allegro Appassionato)
Op 131 - Fantasy for Violin and Orchestra in C major
Op 134 - Introduction and allegro for piano and orchestra
Op 136 - Overture to Goethe's Hermann und Dorothea
WoO 23 - Violin Concerto

Regards the last of these works, the Violin Concerto, it doesn't have an "opus number" but a WoO, i.e. "work without opus number" label. It was written very late in Schumann's life, and was hidden for many years because it was considered by Clara (his wife) and Brahms and Joachim to be a "tainted" work caused by Schumann's mental problems ("bipolar disorder" probably) that led to his early death in an Institution some two years following a suicide attempt. Ignore all that as it's a very good work. It may sound rather strange at first or second hearing to a newcomer, as its style is rather out of the ordinary and most unlike most other 19th C Romantic violin concertos. Nevertheless, after giving it a fair chance you will probably find it is utterly mesmerising. I have six versions altogether, so much do like it. Among these I would suggest going for the Gidon Kremer/Chamber Orchestra of Europe version, as it's as good as any.

Quite apart from these various orchestral works, Schumann wrote some equally very impressive chamber works. I won't go into any further detail on this, except to suggest that you make haste and get hold of is Op 44, Piano Quintet. It's quite a wonderful work and one of the best versions to get is by Martha Argerich et al, or alternatively the version by Leif Ove Andnes with the Artemis Quartet which is equally very fine.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Partita said:


> Regards the last of these works, the Violin Concerto, it doesn't have an "opus number" but a WoO, i.e. "work without opus number" label. It was written very late in Schumann's life, and was hidden for many years because it was considered by Clara (his wife) and Brahms and Joachim to be a "tainted" work caused by Schumann's mental problems ("bipolar disorder" probably) that led to his early death in an Institution some two years following a suicide attempt. Ignore all that as it's a very good work. It may sound rather strange at first or second hearing to a newcomer, as its style is rather out of the ordinary and most unlike most other 19th C Romantic violin concertos. Nevertheless, after giving it a fair chance you will probably find it is utterly mesmerising. I have six versions altogether, so much do like it. Among these I would suggest going for the Gidon Kremer/Chamber Orchestra of Europe version, as it's as good as any.


YES! The Violin Concerto is actually one of my favourite concertos! It's definitely a strange (most Schumann is) unwieldy piece, especially the 3rd mov. The first mov is so dark, the second mov so lyrically divine! To me it sounds as though it's written right on the borderline of his madness kicking in once and for all. (It was certainly near the time)

As for the Symphonies, it's a conductors job to handle the so called bad orchestration so forget about that and enjoy the music. The slow mov to the second symphony is one of the most heart wrenching movts evert composed!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

violadude said:


> I have yet to find the Schumann symphonies as rewarding as his piano works, songs and chamber works. I will keep listening.
> 
> Coincidentally, I am the opposite of Novellete. Once I got into Schumann, I took to all his piano works EXCEPT Carnaval. I don't know what it is about that piece but I'm not too fond of it. It sounds...frivolous?


I agree. Schumann at his greatest and most romantic are in the song cycles and solo piano music.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

> ...caused by Schumann's mental problems ("bipolar disorder" probably) that led to his early death in an Institution some two years following a suicide attempt.


I'd prefer to exercise caution in making a diagnosis of Schumann's psychiatric illness from today's standpoint. The term 'Bipolar Disorder' is a very recent one (1980s) and many conditions common in the mid-19th century could (and still can) mimic its symptom pattern: neurosyphilis in particular is notorious for this.



> G. P. Lehany in the British Jounal of Psychiatry, 2010):
> 
> "The nature of his (Schumann's) final illness and early death is not sufficiently well described to allow certainty in diagnosing functional mental illness, and indeed in the context of Schumann's personality and lifestyle there are many reasonable hypotheses that can be made."


Schumann may have feen suffering from 'Circular Insanity' or 'Folie à double forme,' (contemporary terms) or indeed Dementia Praecox (what is now called Schizophenia) but Schumann's doctor for his final illness "seemed clear in his view that Schumann suffered from General Paralysis, which would later be understood to be a manifestation of Syphilis". (ibid).

Sorry, off topic I know.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

violadude said:


> Coincidentally, I am the opposite of Novellete. Once I got into Schumann, I took to all his piano works EXCEPT Carnaval. I don't know what it is about that piece but I'm not too fond of it. It sounds...frivolous?


I thinks it's kinda supposed to; sort of a satire. It's hard to know just what he was thinking, though.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I'd prefer to exercise caution in making a diagnosis of Schumann's psychiatric illness from today's standpoint. The term 'Bipolar Disorder' is a very recent one (1980s) and many conditions common in the mid-19th century could (and still can) mimic its symptom pattern: neurosyphilis in particular is notorious for this.
> 
> Schumann may have feen suffering from 'Circular Insanity' or 'Folie à double forme,' (contemporary terms) or indeed Dementia Praecox (what is now called Schizophenia) but Schumann's doctor for his final illness "seemed clear in his view that Schumann suffered from General Paralysis, which would later be understood to be a manifestation of Syphilis". (ibid).
> 
> Sorry, off topic I know.


Thank you. I am well aware of the medical uncertainties you refer to. I wasn't writing an essay on the causes of Schumann's death. I simply wanted a short-hand way of referring to the broad nature of the mental problem that Schumann suffered from that I could stick inside a short bracket without breaking the main flow of that sentence. For my purposes it matters not one jot what was the exact illness, which we will probably never discover, but it is well known that he suffered very severe mental ups and downs in his life, with symptoms akin to bipolar disorder as we know it today.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Partita - no offence meant, I'm sorry it was taken. 

Retrospective psychiatric diagnosis of famous people is a particular bugbear of mine, is all. My problem, my idiosyncracy. 

T-Vox


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Glad you don't do that with the posters!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Whenever I see statements akin to "of course it is fashionable/typical to make this criticism of X composer but while it may be superficially true it's not really properly true" I always wonder if it's just not possible to accept that your fav guy has some shortcomings. Schumann's orchestration is pretty rough and ready for the most part (although there are some lovely exceptions to the "all-in" style with every line doubled and tripled and quadrupled that is being criticised). It's a pro orchestra's job to manage that liability (but it's not always easy - number 3 in particualr is an absolute dog to play in places!) if you hear an amateur or student band play it they will struggle. 

But, y'know, it's still lovable music and plenty popular. It doesn't have to be perfect


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## csacks (Dec 5, 2013)

I love Schumann, and his most famous composition are exposed up here, but it seems to be that his late compositions are not that good neither that popular. Some of them are not available, and it seems to be that they are a clear example of his cognitive declination, which is not that infrequent considering his manic-depressive disorder, his suicidal attempts and so on. Compositions like "Der Rose Pilgerfhart", Op 112 and later, including most of his compositions published after his death are examples of his cognitive impairment. To be honest, some of them are pieces that I have never ever listened, and I just writing what I have read about them. Anyway, lets we enjoy his good music, the one from the good times. There is a lot to listen in between them. The forth symphony, so as the first one are amazing


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## Aecio (Jul 27, 2012)

Both the Violin Concerto and the string quartets deserve to be much better known. I suppose they are both "strange" works, in a certain way they don't sound as you could have expected. You may bet that Schumann Violin Concerto should sound as something between Mendelssohn and Brahms, but no, it's totally different. The first movement specially is something totally apart, you get such a feeling of doomed unhappiness... And the string quartets are funny also. You could expect something romantic, a kind of stronger Schubert and you hear instead something that sounds like a hazy and misty Beethoven last quartets...


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

violadude said:


> I have yet to find the Schumann symphonies as rewarding as his piano works, songs and chamber works. I will keep listening.
> 
> Coincidentally, I am the opposite of Novellete. Once I got into Schumann, I took to all his piano works EXCEPT Carnaval. I don't know what it is about that piece but I'm not too fond of it. It sounds...frivolous?


My comment received two likes, and yours received four? Can't have that!

...

There, now I've added my own like to the imbalance.  How do you like the Abegg Variations, or Papillions? I always thought of these works as charming works played for intimate settings. As it stands, it was the "Estrella" movement that I first knew. The first strike was enough to inform my impression of the general tenor of his works. It was definitely misleading sometimes. At any rate, it's a fair point!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Novelette said:


> My comment received two likes, and yours received four? Can't have that!
> 
> ...
> 
> There, now I've added my own like to the imbalance.  How do you like the Abegg Variations, or Papillions? I always thought of these works as charming works played for intimate settings. As it stands, it was the "Estrella" movement that I first knew. The first strike was enough to inform my impression of the general tenor of his works. It was definitely misleading sometimes. At any rate, it's a fair point!


Hm I haven't heard the Abegg variations but I do like Papillions. I don't know what, but there's just something about Carnaval I don't really like...

Maybe it's the performances too. A lot of pianists try to play Schumann at breakneck speed and I find it to be annoying.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

violadude said:


> Hm I haven't heard the Abegg variations but I do like Papillions. I don't know what, but there's just something about Carnaval I don't really like...
> 
> Maybe it's the performances too. A lot of pianists try to play Schumann at breakneck speed and I find it to be annoying.


That's interesting... I tend to think of Papillons as a sort of mini-Carnaval.

Which performances have you heard?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

1810 Robert Schumann, German composer


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> 1810 Robert Schumann, German composer


Isn't this Brahms?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Brahms it is. Rogerx must be punking us.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Happy Birthday to Robert Schumann, Romantic era composer 1810-1856


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

> Isn't this Brahms?


Yes sir, sorry, problem solved.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Brahms already has 60 other threads active right now.



Rachmanijohn said:


> Most everyone has the Spring Symphony or the 4th Symphony as their favorite. Personally, the Rhenish is mine.


I agree. Rhenish is one of the best.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Damn, I realized too late to have a proper celebration (for some reason I was thinking his birthday was on the 9th)-tomorrow will be an all-Schumann day. It's been too long since I've had one of those.

Happy birthday to one of the greatest of all time...


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

My first pic don't go away, sorry.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

1) Third Symphony is my favorite, even though the beginning threatens to turn into the (later) Brahms Third.  Just so long as the ostensible scherzo is taken at a measured pace (the smoothly flowing Rhine as opposed to an eight-man scull. Gardiner's ORR recording is good.)

2) Schumann is one of the few composers whose first thoughts are invariably better than any revisions. He tended to muddy up his original orchestration with excessive doubling because neither the Dusseldorf orchestra nor his conducting were top drawer, and his "solution" wasn't the best.

3) For me, a real favorite is the Rubinstein/Giulini/CSO piano concerto.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Happy birthday Robert!

I think the Schumann symphonies can easily be overplayed, overindulged in, and in turn become passe'. I like Schumann but not as much as Mendelssohn. After listening for half a century only the "Spring" Symphony remains in my collection. I generally more enjoy his oddball orchestral works like the Concert Piece for 4 Horns or violin concerto better than the symphonies. I don't doubt their greatness, just their staying power over decades. His piano concerto is certainly one of the greatest.


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