# Mozart, Bruckner, Brahms, Boring?



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

First things first. I hope people read the OP before judging the title, if this thread ever reaches multiple pages. 

I've listened to countless hours of music which didn't interest me enough to truly explore. For something to really be classified as boring, I feel one must first invest the time to come to such a conclusion. Many people find golf and baseball to be boring yet this label shouldn't be applied after a single trip to the driving range or batting cage. Still, there's a difference in calling a musical work boring versus calling the vast majority of a composer's output boring, and I've found Mozart, Bruckner, and Brahms the three most likely candidates to be saddled with this title (basing this on composers many consider to be absolute greats). So why? What is it about the works of these three which causes people to declare them "boring"? Could it be the quality of their music, across the board, which lead people to declare it boring or are there other things at play here? 

Anyone who's spent a fair enough time here has seen one or all three of these composer's music described as boring. My question is why.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

For people to say Mozart is boring is because they do not understand nor enjoy Classical music in general. Pure and simple.

It's like if I declared Elvis is boring when it comes to rock n roll music. Almost "oxymoronic".


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

ArtMusic said:


> For people to say Mozart is boring is because they do not understand nor enjoy Classical music in general. Pure and simple.
> 
> It's like if I declared Elvis is boring when it comes to rock n roll music. Almost "oxymoronic".


Again making this argumnent.... nothing oxymoronic about either of those cases, but you probably know that.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

They just think it is boring. People have different tastes and like different music. I don´t think most people can answer why they think it is boring it is just a reaction that comes.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe I misunderstood the thread. I was commenting about people who say they love classical music in general but find Mozart boring. So it's like me saying I love rock n roll but find Elvis Presley a dud. This is different to saying classical music as a whole is boring.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Maybe I misunderstood the thread. I was commenting about people who say they love classical music in general but find Mozart boring. So it's like me saying I love rock n roll but find Elvis Presley a dud. This is different to saying classical music as a whole is boring.


I personally find Elvis more uninteresting than boring. As for Mozart, I've seen his name tossed around plenty with the word "boring" attached. One assumption I've made, and I'm going out on a limb here, is that almost everyone who's joined this site and participated loves Classical Music. Of course, there's always the potential for trolls and pot stirrers, desperate to make their point at all costs. While I disagree that you HAVE to love Mozart to love Classical Music, this still doesn't explain why those who do find him boring. As I said before, the documented cases are everywhere on this site. My question remains why.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Composers are boring to those who find them boring. That's an absolute truth that I can state without fear of contradiction.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not sure I've noticed that those three in particular get singled out as boring more so than other composers.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

scratchgolf said:


> Anyone who's spent a fair enough time here has seen one or all three of these composer's music described as boring. My question is why.


For these three, I think it's a matter of taste and the desire to put in the work to understand it. They have a lot going on which doesn't lay on the surface, and their real rewards come from concentration and study.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

scratchgolf said:


> I personally find Elvis more uninteresting than boring. As for Mozart, I've seen his name tossed around plenty with the word "boring" attached. One assumption I've made, and I'm going out on a limb here, is that almost everyone who's joined this site and participated loves Classical Music. Of course, there's always the potential for trolls and pot stirrers, desperate to make their point at all costs. While I disagree that you HAVE to love Mozart to love Classical Music, this still doesn't explain why those who do find him boring. As I said before, the documented cases are everywhere on this site. My question remains why.












I thought Mozart was boring, stilted salon affectation when I was a teenager- then one day it just hit me with Anne Sophie Mutter's treatment of the _Piano Trios_ where it just 'clicked' (I can't explain 'how')- I just started to hear so much of his music as unbelievably subtle, sunny, and beautiful. If someone told me in my teens that I'd one day love Mozart I'd think they were crazy- but now I can't get enough of his music. At one time his music elicited boredom and even irritation- now it just cascades with sunshine and infectious bonhomie.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

scratchgolf said:


> First things first. I hope people read the OP before judging the title, if this thread ever reaches multiple pages.
> 
> I've listened to countless hours of music which didn't interest me enough to truly explore. For something to really be classified as boring, I feel one must first invest the time to come to such a conclusion. Many people find golf and baseball to be boring yet this label shouldn't be applied after a single trip to the driving range or batting cage. Still, there's a difference in calling a musical work boring versus calling the vast majority of a composer's output boring, and I've found Mozart, Bruckner, and Brahms the three most likely candidates to be saddled with this title (basing this on composers many consider to be absolute greats). So why? *What is it about the works of these three which causes people to declare them "boring"?* Could it be the quality of their music, across the board, which lead people to declare it boring or are there other things at play here?
> 
> Anyone who's spent a fair enough time here has seen one or all three of these composer's music described as boring. My question is why.


People who find them boring simply do not have the ear for them. It doesn't appeal to them. I know for a fact that I really enjoy listening to these composers, and do not find them boring.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Composers are boring to those who find them boring. That's an absolute truth that I can state without fear of contradiction.


I used to find the 2nd movement of Schubert's 9th and the 3rd movement of Beethoven's 9th boring. Absolute truth doesn't seem so absolute when a work of music has grown on you. I realize I'm toeing a line between boring and lack of exposure here but something has to give. I was exposed to both, plenty, and later found my boredom had changed to love. Do these composers take more time? Are they judged on output or length? Honestly, I don't think there are any absolute truths when it comes to music.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I like rock, but think Elvis is a dud. 

But to the OPs point, I think some find Mozart boring because they don't like the era. They want more heart in your sleeves emotion, or drama, or more orchestral colors. I don't agree, but that's my guess.

I hadn't noticed that people call Brahms boring. Bruckner probably has more detractors than Mozart and Brahms. I don't think his reputation is quite as high. Also, he doesn't have the same variety of the others. If you don't like his symphonies, you don't like him.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

tdc said:


> I'm not sure I've noticed that those three in particular get singled out as boring more so than other composers.


For example Bach, Debussy, Wagner, Mahler, Schubert and all the minimalists are also composers I've seen people often refer to as boring on here.

I think sometimes these things have to do with issues of the length of the music, sometimes repetition, sometimes the types of rhythm or harmonies used. With Bach its usually "too mechanical", Debussy too soft or feminine, Wagner the length and libretto, Mahler the length and cohesion, Schubert the length of repeated sections, and with the minimalist composers the repetition.

As far as Brahms - usually because his music is layered, complex and purposely not overly flashy, some might find it dry or dull. Mozart's music on the surface can seem maybe too pretty or not overly dramatic enough, I guess? I think most people's issue with Bruckner has to do with the length and structural issues.

So I think the reasons are different for different composers.


----------



## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

There is no boring music, there is boring musicians/performers (concepts, approaches, etc.) 
And not ready listeners.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

On the flipside, what composers or kinds of music would comparatively rarely be called boring, even from the haters? I guess some intense/dissonant/abrasive modern music maybe. Basically though I think all music that the listener doesn't like will either become likeable to him or boring, after the initial shock.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> On the flipside, what composers or kinds of music would comparatively rarely be called boring, even from the haters? I guess some intense/dissonant/abrasive modern music maybe. Basically though I think all music that the listener doesn't like will either become likeable to him or boring, after the initial shock.


I would have said that people who don't like "intense/dissonant/abrasive modern music" would, if they had to listen extensively, ultimately find it boring - just one unlikable thing after another until it mercifully finishes.

Anything can be boring if your mind's not attuned to it.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Nereffid said:


> I would have said that people who don't like "intense/dissonant/abrasive modern music" would, if they had to listen extensively, ultimately find it boring - just one unlikable thing after another until it mercifully finishes.
> 
> Anything can be boring if your mind's not attuned to it.


That's basically what I was saying.


----------



## Guest (May 29, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> That's basically what I was saying.


But you said it in a really boring way.

You need to up your game. :tiphat:


----------



## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Brahms and Bruckner...Boring? Hmmm, I beg to differ...


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

dogen said:


> But you said it in a really boring way.
> 
> You need to up your game. :tiphat:


You expect make to make an interesting post about boredom?


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Ilarion said:


> Brahms and Bruckner...Boring? Hmmm, I beg to differ...


BTW, I won't tell you whether I like or dislike your avatar, but most certainly it is not boring!


----------



## Guest (May 29, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> You expect make to make an interesting post about boredom?


I don't post when I'm drunk!!


----------



## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

And I dig your "avatar" - Drats, I studied Chinese for three years and I can't for the life of me remember what it means...


----------



## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

dogen said:


> I don't post when I'm drunk!!


Oh my gosh: Was it Jack Daniels, Absinthe, or 151 Rum?


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Ilarion said:


> And I dig your "avatar" - Drats, I studied Chinese for three years and I can't for the life of me remember what it means...


Hint nro. 1: It contains the character 知
Hint nro. 2: The stuff around it is the same as in characters 病 痛 
Hint nro. 3: My username is sort of accidentally related to its meaning.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

scratchgolf said:


> Anyone who's spent a fair enough time here has seen one or all three of these composer's music described as boring. My question is why.


Its a very good question, scratchgolf.

However, I cannot give you an explanation as to why - I guess it will have links with the affective domain and its interaction with experiences and self-beliefs, but .... this is a level of psychology that is beyond my expertise. At one time, I didn't 'get' Brahms, but I could not articulate why now because I have 'moved on' past that stage of thinking.

As for the music that I find tedious now, well, I would find it very difficult to articulate why that is so and I don't bother to think about it much - I just enjoy my listening as much as I can


----------



## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Hint nro. 1: It contains the character 知
> Hint nro. 2: The stuff around it is the same as in characters 病 痛
> Hint nro. 3: My username is sort of accidentally related to its meaning.


Thank you for letting me know :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> That's basically what I was saying.


 I missed the rhetorical nature of your original question!


----------



## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

I find Bruckner kind of boring because his symphonies are almost always structured like verse - chorus - verse etc. His choruses are great, powerful and immersing but his verses are quite boring. Not much developing there. It just seems to be very repetitive. I don't find Mozart boring, I just don't like the classical period. Brahms on the other hand is one of my favorite composers and I would never call him boring.


----------



## Kathrin (May 29, 2015)

I think "boring" is a lable made from a specific perspective that does not look to understand the deeper meaning. It's a judgement.... and if many people think "the same" it just reveals a broader lack of education... or simply different tastes. Nothing is boring if you truly understand or like it. Personally I find Mozart and Brahms two of the most fascinating classical composers ever. That's my two cents...


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Mozart Brahms Bruckner, boring!!. 
Is someone trying to initiate one of those interminable threads which make no sense. If you don't like Mozart, Brahms or Bruckner don't listen to them, but to describe them as boring is inane and ridiculous. The three mentioned composers have produced some of the most wonderful music known to man.
So forgive me if I dismiss this thread and give you 6 out of 10 for trying to provoke a controversial thread.

:tiphat: :tiphat:


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Polyphemus, I _know_ that scratchgolf did _not_ create this thread to be intentionally controversial. His precedent was that he found these composers to be saddled with "boring" before. I take him at his word and assume that he's not lying for the sake of lying.



scratchgolf said:


> I've found Mozart, Bruckner, and Brahms the three most likely candidates to be saddled with this title [boring]


Similar to how I've read before that Beethoven wasn't a great melodist. The idea is absurd, just as many think the idea of Mozart, Bruckner, and Brahms as boring is absurd. Nevertheless, it's still something I've read on multiple occasions (about Beethoven, that is).

:tiphat:


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Polyphemus, I _know_ that scratchgolf did _not_ create this thread to be intentionally controversial. His precedent was that he found these composers to be saddled with "boring" before. I take him at his word and assume that he's not lying for the sake of lying.
> 
> Similar to how I've read before that Beethoven wasn't a great melodist. The idea is absurd, just as many think the idea of Mozart, Bruckner, and Brahms as boring is absurd. Nevertheless, it's still something I've read on multiple occasions (about Beethoven, that is).
> 
> :tiphat:


I was not for a second suggesting that Scratchgolf was lying. The simple premise of my response was to, suggest, that Scratchgolf was pulling our collective legs.


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Polyphemus said:


> I was not for a second suggesting that Scratchgolf was lying. The simple premise of my response was to, suggest, that Scratchgolf was pulling our collective legs.


OK, but if he is pulling our collective legs, that would mean that the entire premise is malarkey and therefore a lie, no?. Either way, we'll let Mr. scratchgolf speak for himself.


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> OK, but if he is pulling our collective legs, that would mean that the entire premise is malarkey and therefore a lie, no?. Either way, we'll let Mr. scratchgolf speak for himself.


Rather a black and white view of malarkey but however we will agree to let Mr. scratchgolf speak on his own behalf.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I tried Brahms symphonies 1-4 and Bruckner symphonies 2 and 4. None of them were that exciting for me. Probably preferred Brahms over the two. Mozart's symphonies as I recall were better, but I have no desire to listen to them, or even Haydn. It is very hard for me to go anywhere beyond Beethoven symphonically. I do like Mendelssohn's symphonies quite a bit but they get played only 1-5% as much as I listen to Beethoven's symphonies. Maybe I am a stick in the mud but I am very content to stay with Beethoven and have occasional excursions with Mendelssohn.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Well, I shot a 78 today. The reason behind this nightmare was in fact pulling my own leg. My right foot kept sliding due to these new spikeless shoes. I hope this clarifies things.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^ Hey, pal - some people will need that explaining to them. A diagram might be helpful, perhaps :devil:


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Excuse me for my ignorance
I have heard loads by Mozart, Bruckner and Brahms but I have never heard anything by Boring. I assume he's one of these new fangled modern composers that keep getting plugged on here, but got no joy on Spotify when I searched
Anyone recommend me anything by him, as I don't want to dismiss Boring too quickly
Yours puzzled


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Haydn man said:


> Excuse me for my ignorance
> I have heard loads by Mozart, Bruckner and Brahms but I have never heard anything by Boring. I assume he's one of these new fangled modern composers that keep getting plugged on here, but got no joy on Spotify when I searched
> Anyone recommend me anything by him, as I don't want to dismiss Boring too quickly
> Yours puzzled


Good point.... I missed the capital 'B' in Boring. He's not on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boring_(surname) (none of those Borings are composers), so he must be pretty obscure. It would be common sense to introduce him in the OP at least, wouldn't it?


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

scratchgolf said:


> First things first. I hope people read the OP before judging the title, if this thread ever reaches multiple pages.
> 
> I've listened to countless hours of music which didn't interest me enough to truly explore. For something to really be classified as boring, I feel one must first invest the time to come to such a conclusion. Many people find golf and baseball to be boring yet this label shouldn't be applied after a single trip to the driving range or batting cage. Still, there's a difference in calling a musical work boring versus calling the vast majority of a composer's output boring, and I've found Mozart, Bruckner, and Brahms the three most likely candidates to be saddled with this title (basing this on composers many consider to be absolute greats). So why? What is it about the works of these three which causes people to declare them "boring"? Could it be the quality of their music, across the board, which lead people to declare it boring or are there other things at play here?
> 
> Anyone who's spent a fair enough time here has seen one or all three of these composer's music described as boring. My question is why.


Hah. The first item of business is the full, Oxfordian if you will, definition of BORING. That's for the benefit of the thread and all those persnicketty* members out there; I choose to call it 'failure to generate interest given a reasonable time to get it going'.

All three of the named composers have met that definition for me, for one or more of their works. Still, it probably ain't the music that's intrinsically boring; it's poor old Ukko can't get it. It's 'Cain't ride that hoss' not 'That dog don't hunt'.


----------



## Le Peel (May 15, 2015)

I might call them inexperienced (not implying I'm experienced). I thought Mozart and Brahms were boring the first few years of this hobby. Over time you learn to appreciate different styles.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I suspect many modern listeners find Mozart boring at first because his late 18th century sensibility is quite far from our own. We need quite a bit of exposure before we can enter into that world and hear it on its own terms. That's how it was for me.

Now with the Romantics, we are already reaching modernity - the primacy of individuality and self-expression. Most modern people relate to that much more easily. Some may find Brahms boring because he was a self-conscious classicist, i.e., for more or less the same reason they find Mozart boring.

With Bruckner, I can confidently say it's because he is boring.


----------



## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

To answer this thread, I tried to get into the mindset of one who would find Mozart, Brahms or Bruckner boring, and failed utterly. This is too absurd, I don't have the empathy skills to do this.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I like boring music.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Mozart - predictable 

Brahms - not exciting enough. Dry. Ain't no Beethoven 

Bruckner - too long, complex or even religious 

That's in a nutshell some of the reasons maybe. I feel like these might be the very first impressions of inexperienced listeners, rather then any studied conclusion. And if it is, so what? We all find some things boring.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> Bruckner - too long, complex or even religious .


I think the usual complaint that it is too long & too repetitive, not that it is too complex.


----------



## Guest (Jun 1, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I think the usual complaint that it is too long & too repetitive, not that it is too complex.


If Bruckner is boring then it isn't loud enough. My neighbour agrees.


----------



## Itzik111 (Jun 1, 2015)

Really Love Mozart Music


----------



## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

It depends MOZART music is not all boring much of his later works before his death are great to hear.
BRAHMS music is not all boring to me also his string sextets,dances,Symphonies 1-4 & piano concertos are great to me.
View attachment 70533


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> Mozart - predictable
> 
> Brahms - not exciting enough. Dry. Ain't no Beethoven
> 
> ...


There are some who will argue that uninformed opinion is worthwhile. They argue in vain.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, as others have said, it's completely subjective. I like a lot, but not all of Mozart. I like most Brahms. I have trouble with most Bruckner because I don't find the harmonic events interesting enough to make up for the time period they are spread out across.


----------

