# Popular Music



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I have been on a huge Classical kick for about a month now and just went back and listened to some popular music I used to listen to and found it laughably horrendous. It was so trite and lacking in depth, beauty, and complexity (which I use the term quite generally).

Just thought I'd share, I'm not a snob or anything and respect anyone's taste that is genuine, but I am very proud of my taste in Classical music and am happy it is my choice of listening for the majority!



:tippet:

Edit: A post of mine from below that I feel needs to be in the OP:

I seek to answer the question of why I have posted similar thread topics repeatedly.

Kind of, it's all coming from different perspectives on the same issue. If I think about it, I'm testing my thoughts against what others say. I've been going through a major shift in life, not just musically. I also have dropped all my old friends, for personal reasons (they weren't good company in more ways than one), I've come back to my family, I have just got a new job that I think I'm going to love, and I'm just making huge positive changes that I'm just very excited about, listening to and delving into the world of classical music being one of them.

Sorry for the redundancy, I'm used to being on message boards (from the rock world) where the folks aren't as picky about thread topics. This kind of thing, posting on the same issue from different perspectives, would fly on those boards. I'm used to just posting whatever comes to mind. I may not expect big discussions from every thread I post, it may just be a funny thought or something that occurred to me about classical music that I just want to share. Spur of the moment, inspired thoughts/feelings are the source from within of my thread topics.

I'm still becoming accustomed to how things work here.

I'll try to be more mindful in the future!

I think it fits fine here, I'm mostly talking about my new developments musically into the world of classical music, away from popular music than as the deceptive thread title suggests.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Movies with the scenario where a hero goes back to the deep past somehwere to renessaince or medieval times jumps to mind. Right now, I can recall only 'Black Knight'. He goes back to medieval times, starts rapping there with jazzed up musical accomponiment and that's when medieval people start grooving to contemporary music, in other words begin liking what they hear, it does look a bit ridiculous. Earlier music had different complexity maybe to classical music works, but I thought it unlikely they'd drop their standards so quickly so low, as to enjoy second rate rap, or whatever contemporary music they would've heard, since they were not conditioned to its sound from birth. I find it funny, that it was always easier for me to accept time travel concept, than the idea of people in the past liking contemporary pop, or rap or metal.

A little off topic maybe, or maybe on it only in a round about way..


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Marinera said:


> Movies with the scenario where a hero goes back to the deep past somehwere to renessaince or medieval times jumps to mind. Right now, I can recall only 'Black Knight'. He goes back to medieval times, starts rapping there with jazzed up musical accomponiment and that's when medieval people start grooving to contemporary music, in other words begin liking what they hear, it does look a bit ridiculous. Earlier music had different complexity maybe to classical music works, but I thought it unlikely they'd drop their standards so quickly so low, as to enjoy second rate rap, or whatever contemporary music they would've heard, since they were not conditioned to its sound from birth. I find it funny, that it was always easier for me to accept time travel concept, than the idea of people in the past liking contemporary pop, or rap or metal.
> 
> A little off topic maybe, or maybe on it only in a round about way..


I get resonating with the notion of time travel over persons of said century accepting and enjoying works you deem to be mediocre (and I'd agree).

However, I could see it going either way depending on the person, popular music has a way of catching your interest right away, but fading from one's interest just as quickly.

The beat could be enough to pique the ears and feet of the inner dancers within us all, but the lyrics and simplicity could turn someone else off right from the start as well.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

When I discovered classical music, I stopped listening to pop/rock for a decade or so.

I'm very glad that I now listen to both.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> When I discovered classical music, I stopped listening to pop/rock for a decade or so.
> 
> I'm very glad that I now listen to both.


Maybe I'll come back around, but as of now, I find popular music to be unrefined and lacking in sophistication. Though, I fully comprehend that achieving such concepts is not the point of popular music. But what it is meant for, doesn't truly fit into my chosen path in life, as of now.


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## Ziggabea (Apr 5, 2017)

I don't mean to be rude but isn't this like the fourth thread you've made on this topic? 


p.s. it's in the wrong subforum


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Ziggabea said:


> I don't mean to be rude but isn't this like the fourth thread you've made on this topic?
> 
> p.s. it's in the wrong subforum


Kind of, it's all coming from different perspectives on the same issue. If I think about it, I'm testing my thoughts against what others say. I've been going through a major shift in life, not just musically. I also have dropped all my old friends, for personal reasons (they weren't good company in more ways than one), I've come back to my family, I have just got a new job that I think I'm going to love, and I'm just making huge positive changes that I'm just very excited about, listening to and delving into the world of classical music being one of them.

Sorry for the redundancy, I'm used to being on message boards (from the rock world) where the folks aren't as picky about thread topics. This kind of thing, posting on the same issue from different perspectives, would fly on those boards. I'm used to just posting whatever comes to mind. I may not expect big discussions from every thread I post, it may just be a funny thought or something that occurred to me about classical music that I just want to share. Spur of the moment, inspired thoughts/feelings are the source from within of my thread topics.

I'm still becoming accustomed to how things work here.

I'll try to be more mindful in the future!

I think it fits fine here, I'm mostly talking about my new developments musically into the world of classical music, away from popular music than as the deceptive thread title suggests.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

It's my 8th year of listening to classical music and also my 8th year of not listening to non-classical music. Don't worry Captainnumber36, for some of us the love of classical music manifests like this.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Classical, Pop, Rock, Jazz, Folk and World. There's good stuff there.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have been on a huge Classical kick for about a month now and just went back and listened to some popular music I used to listen to and found it laughably horrendous. It was so trite and lacking in depth, beauty, and complexity (which I use the term quite generally).


As you say you want to compare experiences... this is one I can't relate to. I can understand slowly going off something... there's a lot of music that I've liked in the past where I've eventually come to say 'OK, I've heard that enough for one lifetime' - but suddenly going from liking something to finding it horrendous makes it seem like you've undergone some dramatic personality shift.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I've been listening to classical/art music for over 30 years, but I still like pop music of which there are some fantastic examples. I feel that both the best of pop music and the best of classical do pretty much the same thing and press the same buttons.

I certainly don't exalt my classical listening above listening to e.g. jazz. And I still love 70s disco and synthpop. Why listen to just one thing when I can listen to everything I like?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> As you say you want to compare experiences... this is one I can't relate to. I can understand slowly going off something... there's a lot of music that I've liked in the past where I've eventually come to say 'OK, I've heard that enough for one lifetime' - but suddenly going from liking something to finding it horrendous makes it seem like you've undergone some dramatic personality shift.


My personality has undergone a major shift and my family has even noted on the change. It's really more of me becoming what was always inside, and really becoming my adult self.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> My personality has undergone a major shift and my family has even noted on the change. It's really more of me becoming what was always inside, *and really becoming my adult self.*


I'm 35 and I'm still waiting for that to happen to me!! :lol:


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> My personality has undergone a major shift and my family has even noted on the change. It's really more of me becoming what was always inside, and really becoming my adult self.


Sounds interesting, and a bit scary!

I think every bit of real 'growing up' I've done has happened very gradually - and has been a question of adding layers and dimensions, rather than 'out with the old, in with the new', or anything that has happened suddenly.

Perhaps you have more caterpillar in your family tree!



Bettina said:


> I'm 35 and I'm still waiting for that to happen to me!! :lol:


I'm 37, and hoping it never does!
EDIT - actually 38. Old enough to forget anyway!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm 33 and still know how to have fun, it's more like really becoming the individual I've always wanted to be.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Most pop music is crap to me it sounds not good,to loud,to negative






& unnatural .Most of the music is just rehashing.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mtmailey said:


> Most pop music is crap to me it sounds not good,to loud,to negative
> View attachment 94457
> & unnatural .Most of the music is just rehashing.


I actually felt disgusted listening to some of the stuff I used to listen to after about a month of listening to nothing but classical.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have been on a huge Classical kick for about a month now and just went back and listened to some popular music I used to listen to and found it laughably horrendous. It was so trite and lacking in depth, beauty, and complexity (which I use the term quite generally).


We have no idea what to make of this unless you tell us what you were listening to. Otherwise we might just think you had particularly bad taste in pop music.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

mtmailey said:


> Most pop music is crap to me it sounds not good,to loud,to negative
> View attachment 94457
> & unnatural .Most of the music is just rehashing.


Murphy the Wise tells us that, on a good day, 95% of everything is crap. But it is important for members to continuously remind us of this obvious truth .


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I actually felt disgusted listening to some of the stuff I used to listen to after about a month of listening to nothing but classical.


This needs to be a new thread : "Music you are disgusted that you once liked".


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

All kinds of music have limitations, and no one kind can replace another. I'm suspicious when people put one kind over another enthusiastically, because I used to do that myself, which i found out is actually some kind of musical immaturity, of wanting to get as quickly as possible to the bottom of it all. When you can see all the pros and cons of each kind of music, you get a better appreciation of all the diversity in music, and stop superficial comparisons. Music is an Art form, that should be treated with respect, and not used as a tool for your own agenda, and fuel your perceptions. No form of music should be rejected (hip hop, pop, country, etc.). If you don't like a certain type, you are not being open enough (there is something inside you resisting). If you can find the obstacle between you and the music, then you can remove it. I rediscovered a lot of other musical genres along with classical, and believe there you can only move forward by being open.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

I don't blame you Captain! The vast majority of popular music is not worth wasting your time with, especially considering what else there is to listen to. Fortunately (as I've mentioned before) there are many extraordinary albums of Rock/Jazz that are as incredible as many of the greatest Classical works. Infact, collectively, Rock and Jazz probably has as many astonishing masterpieces as Classical does (rough estimate). You just have to know where to look, who to listen to, who _not_ to listen to (save you lots of time), and (most importantly) have enough interest and persistence in assimilating them.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> I don't blame you Captain! The vast majority of popular music is not worth wasting your time with.


True, but of course the vast majority of _any_ category of thing is not worth bothering with - _unless _ you have low standards when it comes to that particular thing!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

topo morto said:


> True, but of course the vast majority of _any_ category of thing is not worth bothering with - _unless _ you have low standards when it comes to that particular thing!


I agree to an extent. However, popular music (meaning hit radio, Billboard charts, mainstream/media-promoted, and the like) has a far lower quality ratio than any other "culture" of art.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

My life would be less satisfying if I could not enjoy the kinetic energy of the J. Geils Band, the sophisticated blending of music and lyric by Cole Porter and Stephen Sondheim, the chordal and post-chordal explorations of Miles Davis among other artists and genres.

Classical music makes up about half of my listening overall. But both halves offer me great pleasure.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

AfterHours said:


> I agree to an extent. However, popular music (meaning hit radio, Billboard charts, mainstream/media-promoted, and the like) has a far lower quality ratio than any other "culture" of art.


Depends what qualities you are after. If you're looking for 18th-19th century counterpoint or motivic development, barring a few exceptions, you're going to be disappointed!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> We have no idea what to make of this unless you tell us what you were listening to. Otherwise we might just think you had particularly bad taste in pop music.


Yes indeed. Is this thread only referring to music currently in the charts and on the radio? Even then... I haven't followed popular music trends for ages, but every now and then I hear something on the radio or on TV. I confess to having liked at least two Rihanna songs from only hearing them on the radio (so no video to sway my judgement).

On the whole though, I admit I couldn't just listen to current pop music, but then who has to?


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> I agree to an extent. However, popular music (meaning hit radio, Billboard charts, mainstream/media-promoted, and the like) has a far lower quality ratio than any other "culture" of art.


Subjectively, and as a big pop music fan, I completely agree. Chart music is mostly what the companies are trying to push now - it hasn't been filtered through the rich peats of time, nor is it refined in the way required to capture a more specialised audience.

Additionally, there haven't been many big shifts in pop music in general in the last 20 years or so.

Add those two things together, and I totally (subjectively) agree that the current charts would be an inefficient place to look for worthwhile music...

But there's still an enormous body of pop music to explore which contains a universe of stimuli not commonly found in a refined form in classical music - if you have an ear for those particular stimuli, of course.


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## MissKittysMom (Mar 2, 2017)

I grew up in classical - 12 years piano, 10 years cello, 2 years in a university orchestra. But I decided before college not to go into music as any kind of career, and since that point I've picked up tastes for a number of additional genres. And I've drifted back and forth between these and classical; right now, starting piano again in my 60s, I'm back into classical in a big way.

I've always had eclectic tastes in music, and that has been somewhat constant. I like complexity and large forms. I admire virtuosity in both writing and performance. I also want to hear originality; I think it's an old Mae West quote that having to choose between two evils, I'll take the one I haven't tried before.

With that in mind, things like pop and country are out; I never could stand those. I love progressive rock, in virtually all of its variety. I'm still learning a lot about jazz, but my entry into jazz was through the fusion-era bands in both rock and jazz. And I'm fine with many other genres, such as bluegrass, Indian classical, gamelan - in short, any evils that I haven't tried yet!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Getting more into classical music certainly changed my perspective on other music but the best (my favorite) non-classical music remains as enjoyable as before on its own merits and without the need to compare to classical music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I can't seem to get to the second page of this thread. If someone could be so kind as to click like for this message to see if I can get there from the notifications link, that would be wonderful.

Thanks


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Just my luck that the post I make is the first of the third page. :lol:

Any interesting comments from the second page that are noteworthy?


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Just my luck that the post I make is the first of the third page. :lol:
> 
> Any interesting comments from the second page that are noteworthy?


Well, I clicked like for your comment on the second page... or did you already try that as well? (someone else had liked it as well).


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> All kinds of music have limitations, and no one kind can replace another. I'm suspicious when people put one kind over another enthusiastically, because I used to do that myself, which i found out is actually some kind of musical immaturity, of wanting to get as quickly as possible to the bottom of it all. When you can see all the pros and cons of each kind of music, you get a better appreciation of all the diversity in music, and stop superficial comparisons. Music is an Art form, that should be treated with respect, and not used as a tool for your own agenda, and fuel your perceptions. No form of music should be rejected (hip hop, pop, country, etc.). If you don't like a certain type, you are not being open enough (there is something inside you resisting). If you can find the obstacle between you and the music, then you can remove it. I rediscovered a lot of other musical genres along with classical, and believe there you can only move forward by being open.


"No form of music should be rejected" is silly. I'm much more in the route of listening to what makes you happy and letting others do the same.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Well, I clicked like for your comment on the second page... or did you already try that as well? (someone else had liked it as well).


It worked! Thanks.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> "No form of music should be rejected" is silly. I'm much more in the route of listening to what makes you happy and letting others do the same.


The two ideas aren't incompatible. It's possible to be drawn towards something you like without feeling you have to reject, write off, or rule out something else that isn't that thing!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> The two ideas aren't incompatible. It's possible to be drawn towards something you like without feeling you have to reject, write off, or rule out something else that isn't that thing!


I can engage in a conversation on the pros and cons on music I don't really love, easily, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to it for any purpose other than to study it and become aware of it as a scholar of music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

For those interested in my previous tastes here is a short rundown:

Dave Matthews Band, Phish, Grateful Dead, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, Fiona Apple, Radiohead, etc.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I can engage in a conversation on the pros and cons on music I don't really love, easily, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to it for any purpose other than to study it and become aware of it as a scholar of music.


Of course. It's crossing the line from that to spending energy _actively _rejecting large swathes of music that seems a bit over-wrought. But it sounds like there are lots of emotional things going on for you ATM, so if that's where you're at and it feels good to you, great! (It does probably rather colour one's perspective as a scholar though!)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> Of course. It's crossing the line from that to spending energy _actively _rejecting large swathes of music that seems a bit over-wrought. But it sounds like there are lots of emotional things going on for you ATM, so if that's where you're at and it feels good to you, great! (It does probably rather colour one's perspective as a scholar though!)


Remaining objective is important to me.


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## Reukeboom (Dec 3, 2011)

*I went through the same thing...*

I went through the same thing, and haven't looked back. I think it really depends on what you want out of your music, and that can change as we get older. Some people never look for more in their music, which is what you have to do if you want to actually grow musically, past common, highly commercialized music. I think a lot of people are simply so busy that music isn't as important to them, they just need their fix and they're good. This can apply to other things too. At least that's my opinion.

Maybe the best analogy is fast food vs dining at a fancy restaurant? (Cost not part of my analogy)

In any case, good for you for making some big changes, especially in the friends department. That can be tough, but crucial in moving in a positive direction.

I did get to sample some of my old music this weekend, and although I keep the iTunes files of my old music archived away, I haven't listened to any of it since 2009. It's classic to me, brings back memories, but I have no desire to listen to it like I used to. I'd rather be exploring my extensive classical library than listening to these old classics. Basically, I've listened to my old tastes enough to last for a lifetime.

Just my experience and opinion. Good luck to you, there's so much great classical stuff out there to find!


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## Reukeboom (Dec 3, 2011)

Agreed. I think your statement could be expanded upon quite a bit, but you summed it up well!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> For those interested in my previous tastes here is a short rundown:
> 
> Dave Matthews Band, Phish, Grateful Dead, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, Fiona Apple, Radiohead, etc.


Aside from certain works by Pink Floyd and Grateful Dead, none of those artists have works that are substantial enough to hang with any of the great works of Classical, so I'm not surprised you lost interest in Rock when comparing them. I would've (and have before) too if I were in the same shoes.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I can't help it, I'm an omnivore! I like all sorts of music, as long as it is good.

More importantly, I am not hindered or biased in my tastes: I have an education in fine art, and I have seen how art can be effective, as long as it is not removed from its human context. That's all we need, is a little bit of soul!

This multi-faceted perspective allows me to make these kinds of declarations:

Blind Willie Johnson's "Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground" is just as profoundly meaningful and effective as art as Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, and deserves our utmost respect.

Also, in my art world, we do not speak in vague generalities out of convenience. The only artistic "truth" is the expression of one man's experience, and how that communicates to our experience.


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## dillonp2020 (May 6, 2017)

I listen to "popular music" everyday. At the gym for example, classical music just doesn't have the loudness and kick to motivate me to run faster, or lift more. I need music that is new and typically only hard, not good. In my free time, I listen to primarily classical, but also Jazz, Rock, Pop, etc. I think limiting myself to classical would not be fair considering, in my opinion, every genre has something to offer, even Bluegrass.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I never get tired of popular music. I listen to a lot of indie music, and some of it is quite interesting. From it I get the sense that the artists are actually putting in effort and really care about the music. Not saying I never like pop hits, but let's face it, most of today's Top 40 pop hits are written by the same handful of Swedish producers (it's true, look it up!) and there's very little individuality or originality in it. I can't say the same for the indie music I like. It never fails to impress me


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Tristan said:


> I never get tired of popular music. I listen to a lot of indie music, and some of it is quite interesting. From it I get the sense that the artists are actually putting in effort and really care about the music. Not saying I never like pop hits, but let's face it, most of today's Top 40 pop hits are written by the same handful of Swedish producers (it's true, look it up!) and there's very little individuality or originality in it. I can't say the same for the indie music I like. It never fails to impress me


Good for you for knowing what you want. I have grown even more distant from popular music since I created this thread and my desire for exploration of Classical Music is only increasing. It feels like destiny, in my honest opinion. I've never been happier listening to music each day!


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

If I had never heard Sting, the Moody Blues - Tuesday Afternoon, Bill Withers - Ain't No Sunshine, the Beatles - Eleanor Rigby (or many others), the new wave music of the 80's (when I was a teenager), etc, I would have missed out on a lot. 

Pop music can't recreate what classical music can in terms of spiritual depth, power, and sophistication, but I still like popular music to some extent.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Captain, given your long drawn-out and very public withdrawal from the grip of popular music, will we be reading any more posts from you on the subject? Have you broken free? No chance of relapse?


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Captain, given your long drawn-out and very public withdrawal from the grip of popular music, will we be reading any more posts from you on the subject? Have you broken free? No chance of relapse?


I had been wondering if some kind of hypnotherapy or even minor brain surgery could potentially elevate one to the state of being totally unaware of the existence of pop music- and if so, if the Captain might be served by seeking out such a treatment...


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I like some pop/indie/rock music but to me none of it is in the same class as classical music. There are some bands I like who seem to utilise some classical ideas into their music such as The Divine Comedy, Muse, Radiohead, Blur, Supergrass, The Beatles, and Pulp but they are still not fit to lick Beethoven's boots. For starters these groups only bring out a 12 track album every two or three years so they are hardly prolific like classical musicians were, and many classical composers were prolific and consistently good composers.

Edit: I mean 'classical' here as music covering periods from 1600-1950 say, ish, circa!


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

beetzart said:


> I like some pop/indie/rock music but to me none of it is in the same class as classical music. There are some bands I like who seem to utilise some classical ideas into their music such as The Divine Comedy, Muse, Radiohead, Blur, Supergrass, The Beatles, and Pulp but they are still not fit to lick Beethoven's boots. For starters these groups only bring out a 12 track album every two or three years so they are hardly prolific like classical musicians were, and many classical composers were prolific and consistently good composers.
> 
> Edit: I mean 'classical' here as music covering periods from 1600-1950 say, ish, circa!


Beethoven, Mozart and other classical composers also wrote and arranged pop, folk and dance tunes (for the money)... And they were so generic that they are almost forgotten these days.
Even the easy music can be hard.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Good for you for knowing what you want. I have grown even more distant from popular music since I created this thread and my desire for exploration of Classical Music is only increasing. It feels like destiny, in my honest opinion. I've never been happier listening to music each day!


That's great, glad to hear it. Go for what you like, and what satisfies and fulfills you. If you do, you will soon be so happy that you will find comparisons to be irrelevant, and you will be so centered that you will see no need to engage in conflict or put-downs of other music genres.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Captain, given your long drawn-out and very public withdrawal from the grip of popular music, will we be reading any more posts from you on the subject? Have you broken free? No chance of relapse?


doesn't look like it!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

To a great extent popular music involves the blending of text and music. I find that the artists who are best at blending these two (e.g. Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, Joni Mitchell, Stephen Sondheim) can produce songs that move me deeply.

This is different from opera (less so Sondheim) where the music and lyrics are presented in the context of a drama. It is more comparable to lieder. And frankly, Leonard Cohen's lyrics are better than quite a few poems that the great composers have set to music.

One final comment, I was listening recently to a recording of Sondheim's "I Remember." This was written for a television drama in the 1960's, which I have never seen (although I know the premise), so it is divorced from it's dramatic context for me. It occurred to me that it was the equal of most lieder I could think of.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I refuse to listen to music that allows itself to be played in my presence--I always hold out for something better.


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## danj (Jun 1, 2017)

I love, love, love classical music but at the end of the day, whether you listen to other types of music doesn't matter -- really. You like what you like. I love sound-tracks (Inception, Intersteller, Unreal Tournament 3, etc), pop music (when I find an actual song I actually like -- rare). 

But mostly, I usually find myself reverting back to classical anyway.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Hey, what's this thread still doing here? A chance for the Capt'n to bash other forms of music than classical? There is value in all forms, you just might not like it. But honestly, there very few works quite as profound or greater in scope than the good works in classical


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> Hey, what's this thread still doing here? A chance for the Capt'n to bash other forms of music than classical? There is value in all forms, you just might not like it. But honestly, there very few works quite as profound or greater in scope than the good works in classical


Entirely true. But it depends on the personal goal at any given time: is profundity or largeness of scope necessarily one's goal at all or any particular time? That question underlies the problem establishing hierarchies of Goodness and Badness in the Arts--we are then compelled to either Race to the Top and experience only the Best of the Best, or to go slumming and make do, by deliberate choice, with the lesser, the mediocre, the unworthy. But in reality, Art, like similar preferences in color, flavor, etc., knows no such distinctions. It only knows personal preference. _De gustibus non disputandum est._


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> But honestly, there very few works quite as profound or greater in scope than the good works in classical


If you added the scale, harmonic exploration, and narrative of classical to the rhythmic precision, timbral versatility and range of expression of pop - would you get anywhere good? (Or am I describing Prog?)


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

topo morto said:


> If you added the scale, harmonic exploration, and narrative of classical to the rhythmic precision, timbral versatility and range of expression of pop - would you get anywhere good? (Or am I describing Prog?)


Sure there is a lot of good stuff in pop, but like Strange Music said the purpose may not be trying to have some metaphysical meaning, or to encompass a wider range of feeling, but there is stuff in pop and every genre, including rap, that other music can't totally replace. When I say it should all be accepted, that is what I meant, even if there are some that have higher goals, but there is no musical genre I know of that has no goals or can be replaced completely by another. As I said before I think, there is something in classic blues (to me the most obvious and probably polar opposites) that classical music can't begin to match.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Sure there is a lot of good stuff in pop, but like Strange Music said the purpose may not be trying to have some metaphysical meaning, or to encompass a wider range of feeling, but there is stuff in pop and every genre, including rap, that other music can't totally replace. When I say it should all be accepted, that is what I meant, even if there are some that have higher goals, but there is no musical genre I know of that has no goals or can be replaced completely by another. As I said before I think, there is something in classic blues (to me the most obvious and probably polar opposites) that classical music can't begin to match.


I agree with you. Every genre offers something that can't be replaced by another, and we can discuss those attributes. However, I like having limits on what I prefer, I can see the good in all music, but what is it I'm really searching for in my listening pleasure. If I answer that question honestly, I'm looking to be moved deeply. What moves me deeply is the next question...I like class, sophistication, emotional intricacy, and the sound of instruments utilized in classical music.

I do think I find some music to be beneath me in the sense that it enforces values that I find to be quite unsophisticated. Take pop Rap for instance, a lot of it is about smoking marijuana, treating women poorly, & gangster life. I know this isn't all of it, but the music is quite basic and uninteresting.

I don't really like the spirit of jazz to be free and lack strong structure and this is considered to be a highly sophisticated form of art but it doesn't do for me what Classical does. Jazz kind of bores me, it goes on too long typically, and lacks good development.

These are just a couple of examples of why I don't prefer those genres mentioned.

I used to be open to everything and took pride in my sense of musical openness and diversity, but at what cost was I being open? I was losing my own sense of musical identity which is something I feel I re-learned from my mother. She is so frank about when she likes or dislikes something and doesn't give it much thought! I saw a beauty and sense of realness in her judgments, she knows what she is about.

I'll still listen to anything when I'm around different people that aren't into Classical and won't put it down if someone is genuinely enjoying it, and may even engage in a discussion about the music if I feel the person is about it, but I like that I seem to have come into my own with my musical preferences with Classical. I don't love it all equally, and that is fine!


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I like having limits on what I prefer,


Do you mean you derive some sense of security from a self-imposed boundary on what you listen to, or on what you decide you like?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Do you mean you derive some sense of security from a self-imposed boundary on what you listen to, or on what you decide you like?


Yes, and identity.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I agree with you. Every genre offers something that can't be replaced by another, and we can discuss those attributes. However, I like having limits on what I prefer, I can see the good in all music, but what is it I'm really searching for in my listening pleasure. If I answer that question honestly, I'm looking to be moved deeply. What moves me deeply is the next question...I like class, sophistication, emotional intricacy, and the sound of instruments utilized in classical music.
> 
> I do think I find some music to be beneath me in the sense that it enforces values that I find to be quite unsophisticated. Take pop Rap for instance, a lot of it is about smoking marijuana, treating women poorly, & gangster life. I know this isn't all of it, but the music is quite basic and uninteresting.
> 
> ...


As long as respect is given to each genre (I'm totally against rap is short for crap saying), then I'm with you that there is more substance in the actual music in Classical than in ANY other genre generally. That is a fact. Like what Cimirro was saying. I wouldn't want to use the word class or sophistication, because it gives an impression of superficiality. Call it depth of musical content.

The musical content itself in rap is definitely on the slighter side, but it can have great thrust and momentum, and sound collages.

Most jazz is way too conventional, I find, and use much of the same phrases, so much of the improvisations are not actually original music, but blending together stuff heard elsewhere. There are some that are more carefully constructed. Black Saint is for me the most by far.

Blues have very basic chords, and use only so many combinations, so the music doesn't need much analysis at all. But it has a lot of raw emotion, and is very efficient in the use of musical material for effect.

Actually almost all popular music is minimalistic to a certain degree. There are exceptions like Jazz and prog rock.

With Classical from Haydn to Stravinsky, there is the most thematic development by far, and most content and substance in harmony, rhythm, and drama. The music before focussed on harmony, with kess rhythmic variations and interest. The music afterwards focussed on the opposite, but there are exceptions. I like all musical genres, but I can only say I only truly love classical, hence my handle.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> As long as respect is given to each genre (I'm totally against rap is short for crap saying), then I'm with you that there is more substance in the actual music in Classical than in ANY other genre generally. That is a fact. Like what Cimirro was saying. I wouldn't want to use the word class or sophistication, because it gives an impression of superficiality. Call it depth of musical content.
> 
> The musical content itself in rap is definitely on the slighter side, but it can have great thrust and momentum, and sound collages.
> 
> ...


I think we are close to saying similar things now. I can discuss the positive or negative attributes I hear in any music without pleading a love or extreme hate for it which is something I think we can agree on, and think is a positive thing to do.

I think something that is important to remember, is separating the facts from the opinions when engaging in these discussions. Someone may find the lyrics positive where I find the message to be negative, but typically, in rap for example, the message is decently clear and that can be taken as positive or negative depending the listener, but the message is what it is.

The opinion would be if it's a positive or negative message, and the fact would be what the message is. Rap lyrics in pop Rap aren't the most poetic, and are fairly blunt in the message.

But no genre really does it for me like Classical, as you were saying, I love the high level of precision in the performances, and the attention to detail.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Sure there is a lot of good stuff in pop, but like Strange Music said the purpose may not be trying to have some metaphysical meaning, or to encompass a wider range of feeling, but there is stuff in pop and every genre, including rap, that other music can't totally replace. When I say it should all be accepted, that is what I meant, even if there are some that have higher goals, but there is no musical genre I know of that has no goals or can be replaced completely by another. As I said before I think, there is something in classic blues (to me the most obvious and probably polar opposites) that classical music can't begin to match.


I was more talking about the possibility of creating new genres with the best elements of existing genres. Possible, or does having certain characteristics preclude having certain other characteristics?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Yes, and identity.


Yeah, I used to date girls and get turned off by those that say "I love everyhing I hear", because it is either a catch-all statement or just a general lack of musical sensitivity (same can happen to guys, so it is not a gender thing ). Having a certain mix, by liking certain artists more than others, and certain works than others defines a character more. We are all different. I don't quite buy those that only like the higher regarded stuff, and rank what they like by amount of general acclaim though. That is highly suspect, and likely the listener has not really gone out and searched other stuff.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> I was more talking about the possibility of creating new genres with the best elements of existing genres. Possible, or does having certain characteristics preclude having certain other characteristics?


 Can you please elucidate the meaning of this sentence?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Yeah, I used to date girls and get turned off by those that say "I love everyhing I hear", because it is either a catch-all statement or just a general lack of musical sensitivity (same can happen to guys, so it is not a gender thing ). Having a certain mix, by liking certain artists more than others, and certain works than others defines a character more. We are all different. I don't quite buy those that only like the higher regarded stuff, and rank what they like by amount of general acclaim though. That is highly suspect, and likely the listener has not really gone out and searched other stuff.


Definitely. Although I have this problem of wanting to rate everything in my collection on the same level of greatness, and it all just depends on what my mood calls for. I think there is truth in that, but certainly folks who claim all the standards as their favorites are suspect.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

topo morto said:


> I was more talking about the possibility of creating new genres with the best elements of existing genres. Possible, or does having certain characteristics preclude having certain other characteristics?


I don't think anyone can answer that question until we hear a new genre with the best qualities of existing. I heard some successful blends of certain genres, like classical and folk rock, or classical and jazz, etc.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> I was more talking about the possibility of creating new genres with the best elements of existing genres. Possible, or does having certain characteristics preclude having certain other characteristics?


If I'm understanding you correctly, I think the options are fairly limitless, the trick is to do it in a genuine & artistic way.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I wouldn't want to use the word class or sophistication, because it gives an impression of superficiality. Call it depth of musical content.


I think it's ok to use the word sophisticated. It means appealing to a classier, more intellectual crowd. There are certainly other genres that are sophisticated, but I really do love the sounds of orchestras, pianos, organs, harpsichords and etc.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I do think I find some music to be beneath me in the sense that it enforces values that I find to be quite unsophisticated. Take pop Rap for instance, a lot of it is about smoking marijuana, treating women poorly, & gangster life. I know this isn't all of it, but the music is quite basic and uninteresting.


A lot of Opera is about people treating each other poorly.

A lot of Shakespeare is about 'people who live in big houses and castles', just as a lot of rap is about themes of the street.

Hip-hop backing tracks are often basic in terms of their development - often having very little development at all - but there's still an art in creating good hip-hop loops. Unless it's something you've repeatedly done successfully yourself, writing it off as basic even from that point of view isn't very meaningful. And of lyrically - both in terms of imagery and delivery - I'd say it's one of the most complex musical forms.

I'm not at all saying you have to like it - but you've said you're interested in objectivity, and there's little objectivity in these reasons you've stated for seeing a certain art form as 'beneath you'.

Stick to saying you don't like it. Have the confidence to allow your musical identity to come from what your heart tells you.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think it's ok to use the word sophisticated. It means appealing to a *classier, more intellectual crowd*. There are certainly other genres that are sophisticated, but I really do love the sounds of orchestras, pianos, organs, harpsichords and etc.


 More intellectual doesn't make someone classier, although Society may place them on a higher class scale. I know intellectual people that have low morals, and don't consider them classy, and vice versa. There was one philosopher who defined which qualities and virtues to show off, and which are not fit to show off. Forgot the name of the guy.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think it's ok to use the word sophisticated. It means appealing to a classier, more intellectual crowd. There are certainly other genres that are sophisticated, but I really do love the sounds of orchestras, pianos, organs, harpsichords and etc.


Honest reaction - that sounds like a 7-year old speaking. Sorry, just sayin'!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> A lot of Opera is about people treating each other poorly.
> 
> A lot of Shakespeare is about 'people who live in big houses and castles', just as a lot of rap is about themes of the street.
> 
> ...


Shakespeare and Opera are typically not endorsing these negative behaviors. In Don Giovanni, he get's taken to hell for his poor treatment of women. In Romeo and Juliet, the trivial rivalry of the families doesn't stop the lovers from staying together, even if it means their death.

Lots of pop rap endorses poor treatment of women, doing drugs, and glorifies gangster life. As I said above, not all rap reflects that, but I do find the loops boring to my ears. I didn't say it's easy or hard to create the beats, just that I find them boring and they are basic when compared to classical music in terms of having development.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> More intellectual doesn't make someone classier, although Society may place them on a higher class scale. I know intellectual people that have low morals, and don't consider them classy, and vice versa. There was one philosopher who defined which qualities and virtues to show off, and which are not fit to show off. Forgot the name of the guy.


Not all who attend Classical concerts are classy. Not all who attend Classical concerts are intellectual. Some are one or the other & some are both.

At least on some level, all who attend a Classical concert attempt to mind their manners, and behave civilly and you are more likely to engage in an intellectual conversation about the music at a Classical show than others.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Shakespeare and Opera are typically not endorsing these negative behaviors. In Don Giovanni, he get's taken to hell for his poor treatment of women. In Romeo and Juliet, the trivial rivalry of the families doesn't stop the lovers from staying together, even if it means their death.
> 
> Lots of pop rap endorses poor treatment of women, and doing drugs, and glorifies gangster life. As I said above, not all rap reflects that, but I do find the loops boring to my ears. I didn't say it's easy or hard to create the beats, just that I find them boring and they are basic when compared to classical music in terms of having development.


 There is a Britten Opera that endorses pedophilia (was it Peter Grimes?). Shakespeare is typically geared towards the rich and influential. There is racism in a lot of classic movies. There are certain sins that are underplayed and overlooked in even some of the "greatest works of art".


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> There is a Britten Opera that endorses pedophilia (was it Peter Grimes?). Shakespeare is typically geared towards the rich and influential. There is racism in a lot of classic movies. There are certain sins that are underplayed and overlooked in even some of the "greatest works of art".


There are always the counter-examples, but can we agree that as a whole, Opera does not condone improper behavior?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

At least in all the Shakespeare plays I've read and Opera's I've seen, negative behaviors are not condoned. Macbeth is beheaded, Figaro marries his girl, Don Giovanni is sent to hell, etc.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Shakespeare and Opera are typically not endorsing these negative behaviors. In Don Giovanni, he get's taken to hell for his poor treatment of women. In Romeo and Juliet, the trivial rivalry of the families doesn't stop the lovers from staying together, even if it means their death.
> 
> Lots of pop rap endorses poor treatment of women, and doing drugs, and glorifies gangster life. As I said above, not all rap reflects that,


Many characters in rap songs that do deal with violence get their comeuppance at the end, descend into madness, or lose people they love. The theme of reaping what you sow is strong. There's also a lot of commentary on the nature of social traps, and people falling into acting a certain way despite their misgivings due to social realities. There are some big 'bragging' tracks of course, but typically the artists who don't reflect a more rounded reality are those at the 'comedy' end of the market. And of course a lot of rap and hip hop talks about other themes of life. To characterise rap as solely about bragging I think shows a lack of familiarity with the material. Of course, if you don't like it, that's completely understandable.



Captainnumber36 said:


> but I do find the loops boring to my ears. I didn't say it's easy or hard to create the beats, just that I find them boring and they are basic when compared to classical music in terms of having development.


Sure. But someone could just as easily and reasonably say that they don't find classical composers interesting because they don't understand the concept of settling into a captivating groove, and so they resort to the cheap trick of throwing the harmonic centre around to maintain interest.

It all comes back to this:

Liking or not liking something, for whatever reason you want, is fine.

Trying to codify those reasons to inform your own listening is also fine, though puts you at the risk of writing things off prejudicially.

Taking any codification of those reasons and starting to believe that they can lead you to objective quality judgements is wrong.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> Many characters in rap songs that do deal with violence get their comeuppance at the end, descend into madness, or lose people they love. The theme of reaping what you sow is strong. There's also a lot of commentary on the nature of social traps, and people falling into acting a certain way despite their misgivings due to social realities. There are some big 'bragging' tracks of course, but typically the artists who don't reflect a more rounded reality are those at the 'comedy' end of the market. And of course a lot of rap and hip hop talks about other themes of life. To characterise rap as solely about bragging I think shows a lack of familiarity with the material. Of course, if you don't like it, that's completely understandable.
> 
> Sure. But someone could just as easily and reasonably say that they don't find classical composers interesting because they don't understand the concept of settling into a captivating groove, and so they resort to the cheap trick of throwing the harmonic centre around to maintain interest.
> 
> ...


I agree someone could just as easily say they don't like Classical for that reason, and that is fine. I did say SOME rap reflect what you termed "bragging tracks" and acknowledged that it isn't all. I didn't even qualify or say what the majority of the themes are in Rap.

I did say I didn't like it, musically, and I acknowledge with this post that someone could dislike Classical for the very reason I love it.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> More intellectual doesn't make someone classier, although Society may place them on a higher class scale. I know intellectual people that have low morals, and don't consider them classy, and vice versa. There was one philosopher who defined which qualities and virtues to show off, and which are not fit to show off. Forgot the name of the guy.


"Classy" is one of those words that's never used by the people to whom it truly applies.


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