# Stravinsky Sym in 3 Mvts



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I've been doing a lot of comparative listening recently, hearing different recordings of the same works...
a latest project is Stravinsky's Symphony in 3 Mvts....

I've listened to:

Stravinsky's own with East Coast ColSO - '61 [CBS]
Solti/CSO - 11/93 [London]
Boulez/CSO - 2/09 [CSO Resound]

all 3 are fine recordings, but there are some significant differences, esp between IS' own and the others.
Stravinsky's is well-played and recorded...very, very metric!! absolute straight tick-tock-tick-tock...virtually no tempo fluctuation, even within the individual beat. Also - the orchestra does not play with a large dynamic range - everything is mezzo-forte or louder - different sections or voices enter strongly, right in tempo...but it's never soft....

Solti is certainly metric, but not as extreme as Stravinsky, there is considerable expressive flexibility with the beat, the overall pulse remains very constant, but we hear phrases - leaning into, backing off of notes...of the 3, Solti provides the most rhythmic flexibility...esp in the 2nd mvt. recording quality is excellent, plenty of detail...

Boulez is in the middle, and, imo, is most successful - there is certainly metric precision, very steady, but also, some expressive nuance as well, maybe not as much as Solti, but much more than Stravinsky...like Solti, Boulez gets a nice lyrical flow, over the machine-like metric underlying rhythm...this one is also beautifully recorded [live], with excellent detail...

I've never been a huge fan of Stravinsky's conducting of his own works - and this recording of Sym in 3 mvts illustrates some of my misgivings....there is great rhythmic accuracy and precision, which is certainly good, but I think IS shortchanges the lyrical, expressive qualities of his own music. There is simply no room given for expressive nuance or flexibility of phrasing...apparently he wanted to downplay that aspect, or just simply didn't hear it as part of his own composition??

He came to Eastman the year before I arrived, and one of the frequently heard comments in retrospect was that he allowed little or no room for "espressivo", even in works like the "Firebird"...the student musicians found him tough to follow in that regard - very clear beat, but he wasn't giving any leeway in the tempo....it was strict. I think Stravinsky understated, or undersold the lyrical and expressive properties of his music when he conducted it. that's the way he heard it/wanted it, I guess...but those aspects are certainly in his music, and other conductors bring them out effectively....


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Great read, there. Some people swear by Stravinsky's own conducting, but I've never been sold. He was not a great podium virtuoso and it shows

Lorin Glickman told me about the recording of Firebird and asked Igor if that famous single note in Berceuse should be a D or D-flat and the composer said to play whatever you want!

My favorite Symphony in 3 Movements is Michael Tilson Thomas on Sony, but Solti is very fine, too. Haven't heard the Boulez.


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I have a soft spot for Bernstein's (Israel PO) as well, despite its waywardness, and Robert Craft's with the Philharmonia is fantastic. And Boulez/Berliner is very good. But I agree with Heck on this one: Boulez/CSO on the CSO Resound label set a gold standard. 

Boulez respected Stravinsky's abundantly clear desire for very minimal, "expressive" tempo distortions, but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The result is very impressive! Rhythmic accuracy, clarity of texture, but without losing a lyric sense of musical line and connection. And the CSO sounds really, really good.

Not many recordings of Stravinsky's conducting of his own music are my favorite, but I always have learned critical lessons from them.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> ...Boulez respected Stravinsky's abundantly clear desire for very minimal, "expressive" tempo distortions, but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The result is very impressive! Rhythmic accuracy, clarity of texture, but without losing a lyric sense of musical line and connection. And the CSO sounds really, really good.


Right....the metric tick-tocking is certainly there, but there is some elasticity within the beats...



> Not many recordings of Stravinsky's conducting of his own music are my favorite, but I always have learned critical lessons from them.


Yes, agreed....IS' recordings are always rhythmically accurate....one of his best is the Octet from early 60s - phenomenal group!! Glickman and Weisberg are just all over it!! Variation A really rips along!!

mbhaub says


> Lorin Glickman told me about the recording of Firebird and asked Igor if that famous single note in Berceuse should be a D or D-flat and the composer said to play whatever you want!


Yes, the great Db/D-ebate!! Supposedly, Stravinsky told NYPO principal in early 40s [Kohon, I assume] that he should play Db...later on, he supposedly told Fred Moritz [LAPO] that he wanted a Db also....Boulez is, of course, vehement that it must be a "D", and he provides his harmonic analysis to support his contention....whatever....
I've played it both ways, no real preference...


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, agreed....IS' recordings are always rhythmically accurate....one of his best is the Octet from early 60s - phenomenal group!! Glickman and Weisberg are just all over it!! Variation A really rips along!!


No kidding! It's astounding playing.



> Yes, the great Db/D-ebate!! Supposedly, Stravinsky told NYPO principal in early 40s [Kohon, I assume] that he should play Db...later on, he supposedly told Fred Moritz [LAPO] that he wanted a Db also....Boulez is, of course, vehement that it must be a "D", and he provides his harmonic analysis to support his contention....whatever....
> I've played it both ways, no real preference...


Ugh, this argument. There were times when I'd swear Herzberg and Grossman were near blows over this.

I just play what's in front of me, unless the conductor asks for something else.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> I just play what's in front of me, unless the conductor asks for something else.


Yup!! I finally decided that for repeat concerts, I'd play a D on one concert, then Db on the next!! most of the time the conductors never noticed!! one did, asked me about it....I ran the "controversy" down to him...he was cool, he liked my solution!!
:angel:


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I love that symphony, my favourite by him together with the _Psalm ~Symphony,_ and I have

CD Stravinsky,ColSO/ sony 22cd 8869 710 3112
LP Stravinsky,ColSO/cbs 81 79242

CD Ashkenazy,BerlRSO/decca 7cd 478 3028
LP Rozhdestvensky,MosRSO/mel st 33c 0347-48

LP Gibson,ScotNatO/chand 2lp dbrd 2004
LP Ansermet,SuissRomO/decca st sdd238

Haven't done much comparison, but Gibson has always been among the preferred ones.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm in a minority here in often preferring Stravinsky's interpretations of his neoclassical works. I guess he was not the world's finest conductor, though. But, however it is, for a long time I found it hard to find any alternatives that I liked. I do enjoy the varieties on offer these days, though (but can't go so far as to enjoy Bernstein in this repertoire - he seems to me like someone who doesn't like Stravinsky and has decided to give us something different). The Colin Davis Symphony in 3 Movements is a good one - you can hear the composer of The Rite in there while still getting the neoclassical - Gielen is also good. I often enjoy Ancerl's Stravinsky (and did even before my ear was ready to accept a wider range of approaches) but I don't think he did this symphony.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have not listened to them recently and because of the couplings (symphony in C and/or symphony of psalms) the reason for keeping might have been one of the coupled pieces but last time I compared them several years ago, I also liked the disc with three symphonies conducted by the composer a lot, also Davis on a Philips twofer, more than his later Bavarian Radio recording. I got rid of Tilson Thomas although this was in no way bad, I just didn't need another recording. There is also Klemperer (coupled with Hindemith and Weill), a bit slow but interesting, as far as I remember.


----------

