# So I just finished the Ring cycle for the first time..



## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Wow. Utterly brilliant. One of the greatest artistic experiences of my life. I'd only seen Tannhauser before but I've been converted by this into a proper Wagnerian. :tiphat: By Gotterdammerung I was thinking yeah, I recognise this phrase or that where Elgar got his symphonic material from, as well has half a dozen other late Romantic composers, and John Williams. Actually the way Wagner is able to sustain the same musical line for 10, 20 minutes at a time without it ever losing interest is an incredible triumph of structure. 

Highlights: Scene 2 of Rheingold with the gods council, Siegmund and Sieglinde (so lovely I shed tears), all of Act 3 of Siegfried (IMO the peak of the cycle, just sustained brilliance), Siegfried and Brunhilde's duet at the start of Gotterdammerung, Hagen's solo (some of the evilest music ever written), and of course Brunhilde's immolation. Awesome stuff. 

My one complaint: perhaps Wagner did this because he was in the 1870s writing operas which were going to be produced years apart and weren't about to be binge watched over a few weekends on someone's laptop at home, but if I have a criticism it's that I would have preferred each opera to be less self-contained and there be more of a continuity through each episode, e.g. the only characters shared between Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung are Brunhilde and Waltraute. Where does Wotan go in the final part? He's the greatest character I've ever seen in opera, utterly spellbinding every time he appears on stage, and for the entire final drama is put offstage in Valhalla awaiting his doom? I couldn't believe it. Siegfried by contrast is a terrible non-hero, OK I got that he's supposed to be Jesus but he is so naive and childish that it strains credulity that Brunhilde could fall in love with him (yes I know it's ordained by Fate). 

Like if I compare the Ring cycle to the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars, two of the great epic cycles of our time, they are self-contained hero journeys following a single set of characters through several episodes of ordeals ending in a transformation of who they are. The Ring in contrast feels like a series of relatively disconnected episodes where the main continuity linking the operas is the journey of the Ring itself. Now maybe the Ring is the hero of the cycle, but that seems less satisfying in a dramatic humanistic sense. Feel free to tell me I'm missing something. 

Anyway, I don't want this post to sound negative at all because I loved almost (Mime, ugh) every minute of all four operas. The music was of course as good as or better than anything I've ever heard, I can't praise it highly enough for its dramatic sense and pure beauty. And the drama was continuous and often gripping. 9/10.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Did you watch it on DVD? Or listen to it on CD? 
If so which recording?
Glad you loved it. You'll never tire of it. Ever.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Gallus said:


> My one complaint: perhaps Wagner did this because he was in the 1870s writing operas which were going to be produced years apart and weren't about to be binge watched over a few weekends on someone's laptop at home, but if I have a criticism it's that I would have preferred each opera to be less self-contained and there be more of a continuity through each episode, e.g. the only characters shared between Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung are Brunhilde and Waltraute. Where does Wotan go in the final part? He's the greatest character I've ever seen in opera, utterly spellbinding every time he appears on stage, and for the entire final drama is put offstage in Valhalla awaiting his doom? I couldn't believe it. Siegfried by contrast is a terrible non-hero, OK I got that he's supposed to be Jesus but he is so naive and childish that it strains credulity that Brunhilde could fall in love with him (yes I know it's ordained by Fate).
> 
> Like if I compare the Ring cycle to the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars, two of the great epic cycles of our time, they are self-contained hero journeys following a single set of characters through several episodes of ordeals ending in a transformation of who they are. The Ring in contrast feels like a series of relatively disconnected episodes where the main continuity linking the operas is the journey of the Ring itself. Now maybe the Ring is the hero of the cycle, but that seems less satisfying in a dramatic humanistic sense. Feel free to tell me I'm missing something.


I don't know Lord of the Rings as well, so I'll skip that (for now). But if you want to compare the Ring to Star Wars, Wagner's scope was closer to the entire 9-film cycle, not just the original trilogy.

Looking at the core nine Star Wars films (one of which just had tickets go on sale, but there are a few trailers so we have some information) the only characters that are involved throughout are droids. Obi-wan only makes it through four films, Darth Vader manages six. Chewbacca and Leia also manage six, though both have reduced roles in the most recent films.

Characters also come and go. Emperor Palpatine seems to be back for Ep 9, but he was off-stage for the last two, and was similarly off-stage (actually just not yet written/developed) for Ep 4 that kicked off the cycle. Lando Calrissian was new in Ep 5, came back for 6, then was off-stage for 7 and 8, but will be back for 9.

Generational epics can be wonderful, and have the opportunity to show a broader swath of life than stories tied to a couple characters. Again, I'm not focusing on Lord of the Rings, but one can take into account _The Silmarillion_ and _The Hobbit_ you get a broader, deeper story (presumably). For literature one might think of _One Hundred Years of Solitude_, _Roots_, or perhaps stories about Greek gods and heroes. How much more interesting are the tales of Orestes and Electra, knowing the family history. It's one thing to tell a story and then say "happily ever after!", it's another to show the effects of actions on additional generations.

What best links generational epics like the Star Wars series is the themes (similar conflicts, character choices, and so on), and family ties (the grandson of the boy we meet in Ep 1 is a key character in Ep 9 (probably)), and the world all of this happens in (the galaxy is quite rich in interest).

Wagner's Ring is a generational epic, as were the sources he drew from. The operas are linked by themes (I mean literary here, but Wagner adds musical themes as well!), family ties (the grandson of the lead of the first opera is a key character in the final opera), and the world all of this happens within.

I tend to like the rich character, as we see in the Ring. I'd rather have characters that I yearn to know even more about than characters that I'm sick of by the end.

I find that with how interesting Wotan was in the first three operas, I can, with the few mentions of him, completely understand what he's doing during _Götterdämmerung_, which means I feel his presence even if he's not heard. This of course may not be as obvious on the first go through, but you're asking the right questions! I find, with Wagner, there are often good answers.

I find having him described a better choice than having him on stage, stewing. Seeing him powerless and defeated during _Siegfried_ is enough to drive things home for me, I think. And not having him on stage really brings home that this opera (and this cycle) is specifically about change, about the falling away of the old guard, passing of the old order. The focus is on Wotan's child and grandchild, and the main villain is Alberich's child.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Gallus said:


> Wow. Utterly brilliant. One of the greatest artistic experiences of my life. I'd only seen Tannhauser before but I've been converted by this into a proper Wagnerian. :tiphat: By Gotterdammerung I was thinking yeah, I recognise this phrase or that where Elgar got his symphonic material from, as well has half a dozen other late Romantic composers, and John Williams. Actually the way Wagner is able to sustain the same musical line for 10, 20 minutes at a time without it ever losing interest is an incredible triumph of structure.
> 
> Highlights: Scene 2 of Rheingold with the gods council, Siegmund and Sieglinde (so lovely I shed tears), all of Act 3 of Siegfried (IMO the peak of the cycle, just sustained brilliance), Siegfried and Brunhilde's duet at the start of Gotterdammerung, Hagen's solo (some of the evilest music ever written), and of course Brunhilde's immolation. Awesome stuff.
> 
> ...


Lucky you to be hearing it for the first time. It had a similar effect on me and like you my only previous Wagner experience was the Solti Tannhäuser which kickstarted my odyssey. Nearly forty years on and an inordinate amount of listening later my love for Wagner's music has not diminished and I don't suppose it ever will. Enjoy the trip!:tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Congratulations, Gallus. You've gone through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole. Things will look different to you now. :tiphat:

The _Ring_ was virtually a lifetime's project for Wagner, and his concept changed greatly over time. Originally it was to be a single opera, corresponding roughly to the present _Gotterdammerung. _Wagner found the story too complex for one opera and kept writing "prequels" (librettos, not music, which was composed in the proper order) until he ended up with four. But, as you've no doubt noticed, there was still a lot that couldn't be put on stage and had to be explained in the dialogue. If he'd wanted to set everything out before us he might have found a couple more operas necessary and would certainly have needed to live longer to write them! As it turned out, it took him about 25 years, with the work interrupted by the composition of two very different operas, _Tristan und Isolde_ and _Die Meistersinger,_ which explains why the music of the _Ring_ becomes richer and more complex as the cycle proceeds.

About Wotan's disappearance after _Siegfried,_ it was the destiny of the gods to withdraw and to leave the world to humanity to make of it what they could. Wotan consciously bequeathed it to Siegfried and Brunnhilde, but, as Waltraute reveals to Brunnhilde in Act 1 of _Gotterdammerung_, not without sorrow. I've always found Waltraute's description of Wotan sitting on his throne, awaiting his fate and thinking of Brunnhilde, deeply moving with its musical reminiscence of his farewell to her, and in her immolation scene his favorite daughter bids him farewell in turn and wishes him eternal rest. You'll also note that Wagner tells us more about Wotan's past in the Norn scene, and asks in his stage directions that at the end we see the gods gathered together in the great hall of Asgaard as Walhall is consumed by fire. Given all that, I think Wotan remains present in spirit even when he is no longer on stage.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Great thread! Stimulated some thoughts:



> My one complaint: perhaps Wagner did this because he was in the 1870s writing operas which were going to be produced years apart and weren't about to be binge watched over a few weekends on someone's laptop at home, but if I have a criticism it's that I would have preferred each opera to be less self-contained and there be more of a continuity through each episode, e.g. the only characters shared between Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung are Brunhilde and Waltraute.


This is a good thing in that we already have recordings with different singers for the same character in different operas of the Ring. Having more character overlap would worsen that situation.



> Where does Wotan go in the final part? He's the greatest character I've ever seen in opera, utterly spellbinding every time he appears on stage, and for the entire final drama is put offstage in Valhalla awaiting his doom? I couldn't believe it.


I might not remember this correctly but did not Wotan send the ravens in the latter part of Gotterdammerung, and near the end they took a message back to him from Brunnhilde?



> Siegfried by contrast is a terrible non-hero, OK I got that he's supposed to be Jesus but he is so naive and childish that it strains credulity that Brunhilde could fall in love with him (yes I know it's ordained by Fate).


I would have never likened him to Jesus. Rather, the one who most typifies Siegfried to me is Jethro of the Beverly Hillbillies. Tongue in cheek, but really there are a lot of similarities between the two boys.



> It's one thing to tell a story and then say "happily ever after!", it's another to show the effects of actions on additional generations.


Take the opera, Siegfried, alone and you have a happily ever after story.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> If he'd wanted to set everything out before us *he might have found a couple more operas necessary* and would certainly have needed to live longer to write them!


Oh that would have been awesome! Imagine that, a Ring that runs about 23 hours!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Oh that would have been awesome! Imagine that, a Ring that runs about 23 hours!


Just wait for Maximianno Cobra to record the current Ring - that would easily be a 24h+ version.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Just wait for Maximianno Cobra to record the current Ring - that would easily be a 24h+ version.


Is that the guy who has the two-hour-long Beethoven's Ninth? That would be an atrocity!

A shame there are not more multi-opera cycles out there. The closest I can think of is Donizetti's Three Queens and the linkage is pretty loose on them--nothing to compel me to listen to all three as a unit.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> Just wait for Maximianno Cobra to record the current Ring - that would easily be a 24h+ version.


Reginald Goodall comes close enough.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Reginald Goodall comes close enough.


Particularly in Das Rheingold... or "The Rhine Gold", in this specific case.


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