# Operas you'd rather not hear or see again?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Mine

La Boheme
Mdm Btrfly
Tosca
Carmen
La Traviata
Aida
Otello
Lulu
Eugene Onegin

that'll do for now:devil:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

That La Boheme thing is disgusting.


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## Dins (Jun 21, 2011)

So far only two:
Moses und Aron - Schoenberg
Lulu - Berg

Maybe I chose a bad day to listen to them, or maybe chose a bad recording. The strange thing is that I liked Wozzeck. So at least its not the composer.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Lulu just seemed to grate on me after awhile. I'll try again later.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I shouldn't prejudge but I have a feeling that I might lose the will to live if I had to sit through the whole of Einstein on the Beach (even though there's a proviso by Glass himself that one doesn't have to). On the other hand, even allowing for its length and complexity Lulu seems to make sense to me.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Cappriccio


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Rigoletto is coming next year to New Zealand Opera, with a local cast largely unknown to me. I've seen it so many times that I'm not really sure I can summon up the willpower to go again, however much I want to support the local company. The only thing that will drag me there is if my 16 year old wants to go.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Rigoletto is coming next year to New Zealand Opera, with a local cast largely unknown to me. I've seen it so many times that I'm not really sure I can summon up the willpower to go again, however much I want to support the local company. The only thing that will drag me there is if my 16 year old wants to go.


go, Sparafucile awaits.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Itullian said:


> go, Sparafucile awaits.


There's a thought, low basses are very sexy.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

be thankful it's not La B.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Itullian said:


> be thankful it's not La B.


It will be, it will be. All "Bums-on-seats" productions here as there is little interest in opera in NZ.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Really?

I find it hard to imagine not wanting to hear Otello, or Lulu, or Eugene Onegin again.

Maybe some of you are just real hardcore fans and suffering from burnout.

Anyway, I hope that's it.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I wouldn't regret if I never heard or Gounod's Faust and Romeo & Juliette again .
Gounod's music is bland,insipid and uninteresting . Musical pablum . 
Nice melodies, but who cares ? Opera is a lot more than pretty melodies .
The Met is about to do a new Faust in a weird futuristic science fiction
production, so I might give it a try just for this .


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm not all that wild about _La Boheme_, but I can't think of any operas I've seen that I disliked so much I'd never want to hear them again.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Many years ago, before I knew better, I went to a performance of Philip Glass's _The Making of the Representative for Planet 8_. To call it boring and devoid of drama would be a generous statement. I had to leave at the interval and retire to a nearby pub as otherwise I might have committed suicide right there in the opera house.

I now give most Glass a nice, wide berth.


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

Why all the hate for La Boheme?
Not that I like that particular opera (sounds bland), but never hearing it again sounds a bit harsh, no?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

eorrific said:


> Why all the hate for La Boheme?
> Not that I like that particular opera (sounds bland), but never hearing it again sounds a bit harsh, no?


Why all the hate? Perhaps there'd have been less had Verdi written it instead. :devil:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't hate La Boheme or Rigoletto either - I just think I've been over-exposed to them. I suppose in a way I'm venting frustration at the incredibly limited programming that poor old NZ opera has to do to get enough of my compatriots through the damn doors. So far they have never put on an opera I haven't already seen live.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I don't hate La Boheme or Rigoletto either - I just think I've been over-exposed to them. I suppose in a way I'm venting frustration at the incredibly limited programming that poor old NZ opera has to do to get enough of my compatriots through the damn doors. So far they have never put on an opera I haven't already seen live.


NZ opera isn't alone though. ROH are putting on La bohème, Rigoletto & hundreds (well feels like it) of La Traviata. Even Salzburg are doing La bohème.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think the difference is that is ALL we get. To be fair, they have commissioned a new opera, but it will be only shown in Wellington.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Itullian said:


> Mine
> 
> La Boheme
> Mdm Btrfly
> ...


Where do you think they would get the money to put on stuff you might like to see if they drop your list. Carmen, Butterfly and Traviata are probably the most popular operas in existance. Get rid of your list and others similar and you will have no opera houses.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> That La Boheme thing is disgusting.


Thought you kept away from opera stuff?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Anything by Donizetti or Bellini. 
Yeah I went there.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Anything written by Meyerbeer.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> Many years ago, before I knew better, I went to a performance of Philip Glass's _The Making of the Representative for Planet 8_. To call it boring and devoid of drama would be a generous statement. ... I now give most Glass a nice, wide berth.


The problem with this work is that the orginal novella by Doris Lessing contains a wonderful conceit - on the very last page - and the strength of her writing style sustains the build up to that last page which the book essentially is. However, the book doesn't offer a lot of incident, drama or spectacle for any composer to get his teeth into. Glass is better at spectacle - try _Satyagraha _or his contribution to Robert Wilson's epic _the CIVIL warS. _

That said, I can understand it if the very idea of Glass turns you off. The trick with him is to find the very small number of really successful works he has written (eg _Koyaanisqaatsi_) and to resist the temptation to explore the others.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Leoncavallo Zaza, not sure how it can be in your list while L'amico Fritz isn't even cited.

Also I've found Lucia di Lammermoor quite boring, so much that I wrote off Donizetti however I tried recently L'elisir d'amore and that change my stance against the composer.

Rota's Il cappello di paglia di Firenze is quite shallow IMO.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Mathis der Maler is definitely *not* for me.

And I cannot _stand_ Hermann's "Wuthering Heights"


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> Anything written by Meyerbeer.


Oh, and Tannhäuser.


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

Don Pasquale

I like other Donizetti, but this is one of the few operas I don't really like at all. 

Also any opera translated into English, except for children's operas.


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Eugene Onegin


Could you please explain, why do you hate Eugene Onegin? Some famous Russians also did not like that opera.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Richard Strauss all operas except Salome and Elektra 

Alban Berg Wozzek and Lulu 

Shostakovich Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District


from later opera composers :

Penderecki The Devils of Loudun, Paradise Lost 

Adams Nixon in China 

and still more post-modern or avant-garde operas ...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^You are very conservative. I love those operas.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^You are very conservative. I love those operas.


Why ? Conservative ? :lol: I never thought of this ...


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Does Einstein on the Beach count? That's one of the most infuriating things I ever endured.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Does Einstein on the Beach count? That's one of the most infuriating things I ever endured.


 How could you hate those four and a half hours of nonstop ... stuff?


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I couldn't tell any. I'm not fond of Pagliacci but since I love Cavalleria, I'd sit it through.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Since hearing a bit of WOZZECK on a Met radio broadcast last year, I have _very_ little desire to hear the whole opera.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Since hearing a bit of WOZZECK on a Met radio broadcast last year, I have _very_ little desire to hear the whole opera.


I have to admit that I'm not a fan of _Wozzeck_ either. But I saw it _staged_ a couple of years ago at San Diego Opera and I thought it was absolutely fantastic.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I can't think of any whole opera in particular, but if I have to listen to another wimpy *** lyric tenor sing *Nessun-*******-Dorma*, I'm going to blow my ears out :scold:


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## jdcbr (Jul 21, 2014)

Rusalka - at least the Met production. That gamekeeper scene is ENDLESS.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

"Merry Widow" (ugh!)

As for "Wozzeck" two opera friends tried hard to get me to like it by sending me CDs.
I was faithful, listening not only once (and hating it) and twice (and still hating it) but even gave it a 3rd chance (and STILL hated it).
Then it came to the Met and friends persuaded me to go see it. What an epiphany!!
It proves that in many cases the bloom of the rose comes alive when seen live instead of just heard.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Since hearing a bit of WOZZECK on a Met radio broadcast last year, I have _very_ little desire to hear the whole opera.


I can say I have a similar experience of Wozzeck. I heard it on radio and thought this is nothing I want to listen to. The same with The Cunning Little Vixen.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

(Mozart) operas with recitative parts.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

perempe said:


> (Mozart) operas with recitative parts.


imo, Mozart's vocal music is overrated in general. it lacks the fluidity and sensuality of Italian and French opera (almost mechanical, as if he's writing a flute or piccolo solo rather than a vocal line).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Among my criteria for operas, I only watch operas with happy endings, such as Rossini's La Cenerentola.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Among my criteria for operas, I only watch operas with happy endings, such as Rossini's La Cenerentola.


Meistersinger and Parsifal.
William Tell.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> "Merry Widow" (ugh!)
> 
> As for "Wozzeck" two opera friends tried hard to get me to like it by sending me CDs.
> I was faithful, listening not only once (and hating it) and twice (and still hating it) but even gave it a 3rd chance (and STILL hated it).
> ...


I saw it and disliked it even more.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Schnittke's Life With An Idiot. Please don't let me ever have to sit through it again.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Meistersinger and Parsifal.
> William Tell.


we have two Parsifal performance in the season (on Good Friday & Easter Monday), and attended both last season, have tickets for next year's Good Friday. I have to confess that it wasn't as good for the 2nd time. no Meistersinger here.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Among my criteria for operas, I only watch operas with happy endings, such as Rossini's La Cenerentola.


that's like saying "I love Hungarians, but I won't date them unless they have naturally blonde hair"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> that's like saying "I love Hungarians, but I won't date them unless they have naturally blonde hair"


My mother dated a blond Hungarian and ended up with me.

That opera had a happy ending.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Besides La Cenerentola, I have discovered 4 other blond Hungarians: Beethoven's Fidelio, Bellini's La Sonnambula, Flotow's Martha, and Pergolesi's La Serva Padrona. Of course a wrong-headed opera company and/or an avant-garde production could, I suppose, turn any one of these into a bad ending, or more properly a bad production.

I had considered William Tell and passed, but will revisit the synopsis in the big opera guide (synopses of 376 operas and musicals) I borrowed from the library, and will also look up Parsifal and Meistersinger.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Having been very regular at London's two main opera houses from 1988-2003 I happened to see a great number of modern operas. Thankfully the question of seeing them again won't arise as the vast majority have rightly disappeared without trace. Them were some grim evenings!

Seriously, is anyone sitting at home right now, settling down to a cosy night in with a Harrison Birtwistle opera?

I'd rather not see any Britten opera again, save for Peter Grimes.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

From what I've heard or seen and do not wish to again: La Traviata, Rigoletto, Aida, probably some other Verdi I've forgotten, Flying Dutchman, Bartered Bride, Lucia de Lammermoor, L'elisir d'amore, Norma and Montagues and Capulets (or whatever it's called), Pearl Fishers, Eugene Onegin, Orfeo et Euridice, that Offenbach thing, Serse


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Besides La Cenerentola, I have discovered 4 other blond Hungarians: Beethoven's Fidelio, Bellini's La Sonnambula, Flotow's Martha, and Pergolesi's La Serva Padrona. Of course a wrong-headed opera company and/or an avant-garde production could, I suppose, turn any one of these into a bad ending, or more properly a bad production.
> 
> I had considered William Tell and passed, but will revisit the synopsis in the big opera guide (synopses of 376 operas and musicals) I borrowed from the library, and will also look up Parsifal and Meistersinger.


Since you enjoy both _"Fidelio"_ and _"Martha"_, why not try Weber's _"Der Freischütz"_? There is a very enjoyable film version of it on YouTube:


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

There's some seriously jaded opera listeners here!

I think in many of these examples the opera is waiting for its moment to bite you again.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Alexander said:


> Having been very regular at London's two main opera houses from 1988-2003 I happened to see a great number of modern operas. Thankfully the question of seeing them again won't arise as the vast majority have rightly disappeared without trace. Them were some grim evenings!
> 
> Seriously, is anyone sitting at home right now, settling down to a cosy night in with a Harrison Birtwistle opera?


Funnily enough, I did listen to Birtwistle's Punch & Judy for the first time in a while not so long ago and really enjoyed it!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> Meistersinger and Parsifal.
> William Tell.


Of these Meistersinger looks very interesting and William Tell is a possibility. Don't care for the story on Parsifal.



OperaGeek said:


> Since you enjoy both _"Fidelio"_ and _"Martha"_, why not try Weber's _"Der Freischütz"_? There is a very enjoyable film version of it on YouTube...


Ah, the singing is wonderful, but the story line does not appeal to me.

Appreciate all the recommendations, though. My Martha CD just arrived today and I am loving it. The DVD arrived the other day and I have not had a chance to watch it yet.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Of these Meistersinger looks very interesting .


Meistersingers is a very good opera and a great joy to listen to.
It is not an opera I would rather not listen to again.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

dgee said:


> From what I've heard or seen and do not wish to again: La Traviata, Rigoletto, Aida, probably some other Verdi I've forgotten, Flying Dutchman, Bartered Bride, Lucia de Lammermoor, L'elisir d'amore, Norma and Montagues and Capulets (or whatever it's called), Pearl Fishers, Eugene Onegin, Orfeo et Euridice, that Offenbach thing, Serse


All of which I've either seen more than once or would be glad to see again. Funny how tastes vary!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Alexander said:


> Having been very regular at London's two main opera houses from 1988-2003 I happened to see a great number of modern operas. Thankfully the question of seeing them again won't arise as the vast majority have rightly disappeared without trace. Them were some grim evenings!
> 
> Seriously, is anyone sitting at home right now, settling down to a cosy night in with a Harrison Birtwistle opera?
> 
> I'd rather not see any Britten opera again, save for Peter Grimes.


I know what you mean, though not when it comes to Britten. I love most of his operas; many I've seen more than once and enjoy listening to at home.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> I know what you mean, though there are plenty of Britten operas apart from Grimes that I've seen more than once and enjoy listening to at home.


Maybe I should try harder. Which one for audio only?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

perempe said:


> (Mozart) operas with recitative parts.


 I agree with that. I am currently struggling through The Marriage of Figaro. Not an opera I will listen to or see again.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Meistersingers is a very good opera and a great joy to listen to.


I will have to give this one much more thought. I like the story, with the possible exception of the guy getting clubbed over the head, but that can be done less violently in some productions. There is a good assortment of productions, a couple traditional looking, which is my preference. Not sure I am into or ready for the Wagnerian style. Oh, and the length. Four and a half hours is pretty extreme. Somehow I think this could be my next purchase though.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I will have to give this one much more thought. I like the story, with the possible exception of the guy getting clubbed over the head, but that can be done less violently in some productions. There is a good assortment of productions, a couple traditional looking, which is my preference. Not sure I am into or ready for the Wagnerian style. Oh, and the length. Four and a half hours is pretty extreme. Somehow I think this could be my next purchase though.


For me Wagners operas are good when I give them a chance and I think it is like that for most people.
I don´t know what the Wagnerian style is I think Wagners operas have lots of variations. Meistersingers is a comic opera with pleasant music for the beginning to the end so don´t think of it as a Wagner opera. Four and a half hours means only that there are more to enjoy than usual in operas. I have a problem with all short operas. I like long operas that I can spend a whole day listening to.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Alexander said:


> Maybe I should try harder. Which one for audio only?


 I resisted *Billy Budd* for ages, thinking I wouldn't like an opera with no female voices. Boy was I wrong. The range of colour Britten achieves with his male chorus is fantastic. It's now one of my favourite operas and I've seen it a few times now.

*The Turn of the Screw* was the first Britten opera I ever saw, and I've seen it staged quite a few times. I think it's one of his very best works, and he achieves miracles with his chamber orchestra.

Give them a try.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> I resisted *Billy Budd* for ages, thinking I wouldn't like an opera with no female voices. Boy was I wrong. The range of colour Britten achieves with his male chorus is fantastic. It's now one of my favourite operas and I've seen it a few times now.
> 
> *The Turn of the Screw* was the first Britten opera I ever saw, and I've seen it staged quite a few times. I think it's one of his very best works, and he achieves miracles with his chamber orchestra.
> 
> Give them a try.


Yesyesyes! Both brilliant.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I will have to give this one much more thought. I like the story, with the possible exception of the guy getting clubbed over the head, but that can be done less violently in some productions. There is a good assortment of productions, a couple traditional looking, which is my preference. Not sure I am into or ready for the Wagnerian style. Oh, and the length. Four and a half hours is pretty extreme. Somehow I think this could be my next purchase though.


Don't worry about the length. Take one Act at a time (although once you start listening, you may find it difficult to stop - "Meistersinger" is that good!). As for getting into Wagner in general, I would suggest starting with "Meistersinger", "Holländer", "Tannhäuser" and "Lohengrin". The "Ring", "Tristan" and "Parsifal" were, for me at least, less approachable at first, but when they get under your skin, they stay there, and provide the kind of listening pleasure that makes life worth living!

If you want to wait a little before getting into Wagner, and Weber's "Freischütz" is not an option cry, I would suggest trying Humperdinck's "Hansel und Gretel". It may sound silly, but Humperdinck's opera is actually quite a bit closer to Wagner than one might initially think. It's also a really charming opera, with just the right amount of darkness in it to provide some tension (and some very effective musical contrast). Jeffrey Tate/EMI (a personal favourite) and Donald Runnicles/Teldec are among several recommendable recordings.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Meistersinger is the one to get. I just have to take my time about it, find the best recording and DVD. No hurry, still haven't watched the Martha DVD I got last week.

I did attend Hansel and Gretel at the Michigan Opera Theater back about 30 years ago. I recall it was a rather enjoyable opera, but is not what I am looking for now.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I can recommend this DVD of _Die Meistersinger_:










This is a very traditional staging from an early '80s Bayreuth Festival with an excellent cast, including a Walther (Jerusalem) who sounds and looks like a young nobleman who could win Eva's heart.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MAuer said:


> I can recommend this DVD of _Die Meistersinger_:
> This is a very traditional staging from an early '80s Bayreuth Festival with an excellent cast, including a Walther (Jerusalem) who sounds and looks like a young nobleman who could win Eva's heart.


I like it! It was already in my scope from very preliminary search on Amazon. But your confirmation of the quality and traditionalness of it is very helpful. By the way, I ordered a CD set (4 disc of course) of it, Solti and the CSO. I know it is not a recording of the opera acted out but a live stage performance, but it is highly rated and I very much enjoyed the clips on Amazon and Allmusic. Thanks!

Also thanks to Itullian for recommending this opera in the first place!

Now I better let this thread get back to the original topic.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> I like it! It was already in my scope from very preliminary search on Amazon. But your confirmation of the quality and traditionalness of it is very helpful. By the way, I ordered a CD set (4 disc of course) of it, Solti and the CSO. I know it is not a recording of the opera acted out but a live stage performance, but it is highly rated and I very much enjoyed the clips on Amazon and Allmusic. Thanks!
> 
> Also thanks to Itullian for recommending this opera in the first place!
> 
> Now I better let this thread get back to the original topic.


That Solti is my favorite recording of it. The sound blows me away and the chorus and orchestra are fantastic.

I like the above DVD, but I think I like the Levine even more. Morris is a great Sachs. The sets and chorus are better too. And so is the production.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> That Solti is my favorite recording of it. The sound blows me away and the chorus and orchestra are fantastic.
> 
> I like the above DVD, but I think I like the Levine even more. Morris is a great Sachs. The sets and chorus are better too. And so is the production.


Thanks, I like that one also, and it seems to be available at a lower price than the other.

However, this one also looks interesting:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Thanks, I like that one also, and it seems to be available at a lower price than the other.
> 
> However, this one also looks interesting:


Not familiar, but for sight and sound you cant beat the Levine. mho


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Puccini, pretty much all of it. 

I've heard Turandot and La Boheme in performance, but for any number of reasons, this composer's music and his choice of libretti is just not my cuppa. Even a free ticket to hear a top-notch performance with a stellar cast would be wasted on me -- better gifted to another.

The same applies with equal vehemence to Wagner. 

Both undisputed master composers, but there is no accounting for taste, theirs or mine


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Rodolfo's drama was probably a masterpiece. Unfortunately, the score for La bohème survives.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I once saw Sweeny Todd at the Michigan Opera Theatre. Don't care to ever see that one again.


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## Gizmo (Mar 28, 2013)

Verdi: Un Giorno di Regno and Thomas Ades: The Tempest


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Gizmo said:


> Verdi: Un Giorno di Regno and Thomas Ades: The Tempest


Un Giorno di Regno is one of my all time favorites.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> Rodolfo's drama was probably a masterpiece. Unfortunately, the score for La bohème survives.


La Boheme is an uneven opera. I like most of it except for the jolly parts and I agree the burning of Rodolfos play is stupid.
I am not so fond of comic operas anyway.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Massanet's Cendrillon. Ugh, it is horrible and that is only from the CD, but I did watch a brief part on You Tube. I plan to take the CD to Dearborn music and get salvage value, probably $2 for it. The CD was an impulse purchase and a bad one. But I have enough impulse purchase that were worthwhile to make up for it, like last nights impulse purchase of both CD and DVD for Die Meistersinger!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Massanet's Cendrillon. Ugh, it is horrible and that is only from the CD, but I did watch a brief part on You Tube. I plan to take the CD to Dearborn music and get salvage value, probably $2 for it. The CD was an impulse purchase and a bad one. But I have enough impulse purchase that were worthwhile to make up for it, like last nights impulse purchase of both CD and DVD for Die Meistersinger!


Love *Cendrillon*. Love the recording with Von Stade, though Gedda is miscast in a role that was written for a mezzo. Still it's an absolutely delightful work, and Von Stade is perfectly cast as the heroine.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sloe said:


> I agree with that. I am currently struggling through The Marriage of Figaro. Not an opera I will listen to or see again.


Poor you! I'm sorry!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> Love *Cendrillon*. Love the recording with Von Stade, though Gedda is miscast in a role that was written for a mezzo. Still it's an absolutely delightful work, and Von Stade is perfectly cast as the heroine.


Whole opera just seemed too dark and dreary to me. I much, much prefer von Stade in the Abbado Cenerentola DVD (every character perfect in that DVD) and Berganza in the Abbado CD.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Poor you! I'm sorry!


:lol:

Don´t feel sorry for me it was my own decision.
No I will not listen to or see The Marriage of Figaro again.

I would rather listen to a contemporary opera.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Whole opera just seemed too dark and dreary to me. I much, much prefer von Stade in the Abbado Cenerentola DVD (every character perfect in that DVD) and Berganza in the Abbado CD.


But you can't criticise *Cendrillon* for not being *La Cenerentola*. Though the stories are similar, these are two completely different operas written at completely different times by two completely different composers in completely different circumstances. You may prefer Rossini to Massenet, which is fair enough, but really, the two operas have absolutely nothing in common, except maybe the story and the fact that Von Stade had both roles in her repertoire.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Whole opera just seemed too dark and dreary to me. I much, much prefer von Stade in the Abbado Cenerentola DVD (every character perfect in that DVD) and Berganza in the Abbado CD.


I agree. Dark and dreary is how I heard it too. Culled.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> Rodolfo's drama was probably a masterpiece. Unfortunately, the score for La bohème survives.



How?...why would you?...What?!
SACRILEGE!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> But you can't criticise *Cendrillon* for not being *La Cenerentola*. Though the stories are similar, these are two completely different operas written at completely different times by two completely different composers in completely different circumstances. You may prefer Rossini to Massenet, which is fair enough, but really, the two operas have absolutely nothing in common, except maybe the story and the fact that Von Stade had both roles in her repertoire.


Agree. It is a well produced opera, similar, but different, and not to my personal liking--that is, I much prefer the way Rossini and his librettist treated the Cinderella story than the way it was done by Massenet.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm on the fence about A Midsummer Night's Dream. I want to give it another chance, but... meh.


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## Pimlicopiano (Oct 23, 2014)

Bellini I Puritani - only made it through part of the first act whilst standing many years ago at Covent Garden. In fact, pretty much all Bellini and Donizetti can be cast aside.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

View attachment Fernando_de_Lucia__A_te__o_cara.mp3


Pimlicopiano said:


> In fact, pretty much all Bellini and Donizetti can be cast aside.


As far as live performances go, I'd probably agree- and even add the rest of the opera and song repertoire to things that can be cast aside! But, as ever, old recordings show us that there is another way, in which the metronome can be ignored and the music allowed to go where it will, ornamented, the sound swelled and diminished etc. Have a listen to de Lucia's A te o cara and Patti's Ah non credea mirarti to see a glimpse of how things were and maybe could be again, if only audiences would not just uncritically accept whatever is put in front of them!






Sticking with I Puritani, here is Francesco Marconi with Maria Galvany in Vieni fra queste braccia:






On the whole I don't know if Bellini is that well served by early recordings. I just posted the first few that spring readily to mind. Donizetti fared better, with plenty of recordings to choose from. Sticking with just the Italians, here is Francesco Marconi phrasing magnificently in Di pescator ignobile:






and in Lucia:






All these records are of course well known well known to people who know about old records. But I can't help feeling that if they were as well known to those who dutifully sit through modern performances as if they were the aural equivalent of a dose of cod liver oil, there would be much clamouring for this music to be sung this way again.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Figleaf:* What I hear in the kind of very old recordings you refer to is that the singers were encouraged to have "mastery" over the music they sang, hence the rubato, ornamenting, etc. From reading THE GRAND TRADITION by John Steane I learned that this all changed with the advent of Toscannini, with whom opera became not a singers' concert but a musical _opus_, like the symphony. Toscannini wasn't one to wait while a singer stretched this or that phrase or gave an encore.

On the whole, I'm not as enamored of the pre-78 and pre-LP era as you are; most of my favorite singers and recordings are from the 1960's to the present day. I do agree that bel canto music won't "play itself" the way, say, verismo will; it needs imaginative singers and conductors to bring it to life. Years ago in an "Opera News" interview the tenor Ramon Vargas said that in Puccini/verismo, the orchestral writing is so vivid that it engages your voice, whereas in bel canto you have to engage your voice with the music. There are certain bel canto ornaments I always get a little disappointed when I don't hear, such as that series of ascending trills in "Vien diletto" from I PURITANI (Joan Sutherland does them in her second complete recording, made in the early 1970's). And it's not just Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti; Verdi too can sound "square" when the phrasing is unimaginative and those "optional" high notes are omitted. Frankly, I think the idea that we can return to the time of de Lucia and Galli-Curci if there's enough audience demand for it very unrealistic and probably not even desirable, but then I tend to view opera as music drama in the Toscannini sense because -- my love of the singing voice notwithstanding -- I'm a theatre person and not a musician.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> View attachment 54534
> 
> 
> As far as live performances go, I'd probably agree- and even add the rest of the opera and song repertoire to things that can be cast aside! But, as ever, old recordings show us that* there is another way, in which the metronome can be ignored and the music allowed to go where it will, ornamented, the sound swelled and diminished etc.* Have a listen to de Lucia's A te o cara and Patti's Ah non credea mirarti to see a glimpse of how things were and maybe could be again, if only audiences would not just uncritically accept whatever is put in front of them!
> ...


I would love to think that if people were exposed to the kind of expressive freedom we hear in recordings of this vintage they would demand that singers burst out of their rhythmic and dynamic straightjackets and start doing something more interesting and original with the notes on the page. Personally, I'm not holding my breath. For one thing, it would require understanding and cooperation from conductors, who are used to being in command, and from the players in the pit, who would inevitably have to sacrifice a certain amount of well-drilled precision in the process of following a conductor who is now having to follow the tenor. But even more crucially, the freedom to execute the vocal graces of messa di voce, portamento, trills, grupetti and the rest at will requires first of all the ability to do so.

I have to admit that I am often uncertain whether singers today don't do more with their voices because they lack imagination or simply lack technique, but I think it's probably a little of both: if we've lost a feel for these elements of style and no longer sense their value in musical interpretation, we're less likely to spend the necessary time in refining the capabilities of our vocal instrument. Interpretive freedom requires physical freedom, and the confidence to forget technique and let the voice respond spontaneously to the expressive impulse of the moment. This sense of freedom and spontaneity is, I think, what some of us treasure in these old recordings, even in the the 63-year-old Patti who, though old in voice, still just lets it fly and sings her heart out. We are more careful now, more strict about note values and keeping things moving, and that isn't necessarily bad in itself. But I think we long ago suffered a collapse of imagination and the loss of much of that expressive intuition which tells a musician when he must be strict and when he can profitably indulge his fancy.

It's a little sad for me to realize that we are now quite distant in time from when these romantic operas were written, and that the recordings we have of aging artists from that era are all we will ever have to give us a hint of how it all sounded and, I'm pretty sure, will never sound again.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck: early recordings are like the Sibylline books- what survives is a tiny fragment of what once existed, but that makes them more precious, not less. (I don't think you were disagreeing with that but I just wanted to make myself quite clear!) I don't think it would be at all impossible to bring back certain elements of nineteenth century style and technique which can be reconstructed from early recordings as well as from vocal treatises and contemporary accounts of performances. The trouble is, it would be a revival rather than part of a living tradition, and as such might fall into self consciousness and affectation. Like all utopian schemes, it's theoretically possible if only the collective will was there... but we humans are unimaginative creatures on the whole, and would rather tolerate dismal standards than do something about it!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Figleaf:* What I hear in the kind of very old recordings you refer to is that the singers were encouraged to have "mastery" over the music they sang, hence the rubato, ornamenting, etc. From reading THE GRAND TRADITION by John Steane I learned that this all changed with the advent of Toscannini, with whom opera became not a singers' concert but a musical _opus_, like the symphony. Toscannini wasn't one to wait while a singer stretched this or that phrase or gave an encore.
> 
> On the whole, I'm not as enamored of the pre-78 and pre-LP era as you are; most of my favorite singers and recordings are from the 1960's to the present day. I do agree that bel canto music won't "play itself" the way, say, verismo will; it needs imaginative singers and conductors to bring it to life. Years ago in an "Opera News" interview the tenor Ramon Vargas said that in Puccini/verismo, the orchestral writing is so vivid that it engages your voice, whereas in bel canto you have to engage your voice with the music. There are certain bel canto ornaments I always get a little disappointed when I don't hear, such as that series of ascending trills in "Vien diletto" from I PURITANI (Joan Sutherland does them in her second complete recording, made in the early 1970's). And it's not just Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti; Verdi too can sound "square" when the phrasing is unimaginative and those "optional" high notes are omitted. Frankly, I think the idea that we can return to the time of de Lucia and Galli-Curci if there's enough audience demand for it very unrealistic and probably not even desirable, but then I tend to view opera as music drama in the Toscannini sense because -- my love of the singing voice notwithstanding -- I'm a theatre person and not a musician.


I don't think you have to choose (in principle anyway) between high musical standards and opera-as-theatre. There are always trade offs, as with anything in life- but the idea of singers being vocally beautiful but dramatically staid or else vocally flawed but dramatically brilliant is a false dichotomy and probably always has been. I suppose the reason why I picked de Lucia as a paragon of style in the music we were discussing is because his ornamentations and his messa di voce, his rubato, are not simply there for their own sake, but always serve both musical and dramatic expression- and the fact that we can't draw an exact dividing line between the musical and the dramatic is a tribute to his art- his performances just sounds so inevitable and 'right'.

You can keep Galli Curci, as talented as she certainly was: that coloratura soprano sound is not my thing at all!

Verdi sounding 'square' in the wrong hands- absolutely! 'Di Provenza' can sound like the squarest thing ever written or it can sound sublime and moving. Battistini shows us the way to do it.

I wonder what Ramon Vargas meant in that quote? I'm not a musician either, so I need things spelled out patiently in plain English!

Verismo might 'play itself' to a greater extent than earlier music does, but I don't think that has been a very promising approach. The verismo repertoire always sounds better to me sung by singers of the old school. I'm allergic to sobs, gulps, unnecessary parlando etc. The intrusive aspirate should be a hanging offence. I don't want to sound like I'm all obsessed with Fernando de Lucia (well maybe a little!) but he's nearly the only tenor I want to hear singing Puccini. Proof that dramatic feeling and knowing how to sing aren't mutually exclusive!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Figleaf:* Actually, I meant to type Patti rather than Galli-Curci; I tend to get them mixed up. I think what Vargas meant was that in the post-Verdi Italian operas the orchestra is a more prominent, vivid presence (as it is in Wagner and Strauss), and so accomplishes a greater amount of what in bel canto is accomplished by the singing voice. Also, the essence of bel canto opera as I understand it is that the _individual timbre_ of the singer's voice plays a bigger role in the creation of the character than it does in other, later types of opera -- to take a small example, in the LUCIA Mad Scene Callas' Lucia comes across as morbid while Sutherland's comes across as dreamy, due to their very different vocal colors (dark vs. bright). All of this is played against a relatively spare (when compared to Puccini, etc.) orchestration.

I agree with you about the way verismo should be sung; one of my biggest pet peeves, in fact, is "vocal acting" that doesn't sound musical.

Speaking of false dichotomies, I've realized that the idea that before the 1950's with Callas and Gobbi no one in opera cared about _physical acting_ is false -- because if you read performance reviews from the earlier days of opera (even going back to the 1890's!), you'll find that the critics quite often commented on how good or bad the acting was, and whether or not the singer "looked the part." Gobbi, Callas, etc. probably just brought acting to a new level of importance.

Edited to add: When all is said and done, opera for me has to be something in the here and now; even if the here and now is not up to the lofty standards of the past, I can't deny that I've gotten great enjoyment from it. The fact that we have all of these old, recorded performances means that a person can listen exclusively to those if he/she so desires; personally, I could never do that.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Figleaf:* Actually, I meant to type Patti rather than Galli-Curci; I tend to get them mixed up.


Aaaaargh! Get on to YouTube now and don't come back until you can tell the difference!

Seriously though, this highlights just how little appreciated, relative to their historical importance, early recordings actually are. If you'd gone onto a jazz forum and said, 'Actually, I meant to type Billie Holliday rather than Claire Martin; I tend to get them mixed up', you would have got absolutely crucified, and not just by curmudgeons like me! And yet with early operatic records you are far more knowledgeable than most people, who probably think that Patti is one of Marge Simpson's sisters.

Acting: I tend to assume that the acting, while important, may have been more stylised and less naturalistic in the 19th C than it became later, probably under the influence of film ('theatre's flickering bogey', as David Belasco amusingly called it). I could be right or wrong: photographs provide a clue, though the show shutter speeds (is that what I mean? I'm ignorant of photography) may militate against spontaneous acting, and encourage statue-like poses. There are early silent or synchronised films of opera singers, many presumed lost, but that could be because nobody in a position to find them is actually looking for them- if early recordings are a minority interest, silent movies featuring 19thC opera singers are still more so. Should a representative number show up, we'll be able to start drawing conclusions about operatic acting.

I do envy anyone who can derive enjoyment from modern performances while retaining some historical awareness. Many can and do, but I always find myself mentally making comparisons with the best recordings from the last 120 years, which tends to obliterate any pleasure in the physically here and now. I do consider, though, that recordings belong in a sort of eternal present, and happen anew each time they are played (sorry if that sounds platitudinous, New Agey, or otherwise strange- it's a hard thing to express!)

Thanks for clarifying the Vargas quote. He's probably right.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Aaaaargh! Get on to YouTube now and don't come back until you can tell the difference!
> 
> Seriously though, this highlights just how little appreciated, relative to their historical importance, early recordings actually are. If you'd gone onto a jazz forum and said, 'Actually, I meant to type Billie Holliday rather than Claire Martin; I tend to get them mixed up', you would have got absolutely crucified, and not just by curmudgeons like me! And yet with early operatic records you are far more knowledgeable than most people, who probably think that Patti is one of Marge Simpson's sisters.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your remarks on acting. We can get some idea of the change in acting styles just from watching movies of various vintages. Actors became more "naturalistic" as the 20th century wore on, until in our time we have seen an endless procession of screen "actors" who stand around stupidly and mutter unintelligibly because that's the way people behave and talk in "real life" (the fact that some of us do _not_ behave and talk that way presumably proves that some of us don't live in the "real" world - for which some of us are grateful every day). Unfortunately, every time period thinks that its way is best and tends to see older styles - in musical performance too, though less so - as artificial or "quaint." As relieved as we may be to be spared the quivering vocalizations and forehead-gripping of some old-time Shakespeareans (though I suspect this is more a caricature than a reality), I think there's plenty to be learned from watching early film actors about how to make the voice and body expressive. I've long been a fan of Greta Garbo, who began acting in silent films as a teenager and who, when the talkies came in, carried into the new medium a powerful feel for "plastique," the sense of how physical movement can express a full range of emotion. I don't know much about how acting was taught in those days, but "naturalism" as we know it was certainly not the ideal. Maria Callas, in another context, made a distinction between "realism' and "truth" in art, and what we can see of her own acting in photos and on film reveals a style of acting in which the emotions expressed are virtually choreographed by her body, yet never seem artificial but rather the natural, inevitable expression of the music and character. This is true even in such a "naturalistic" work as _Tosca_, where, in the film of her performance, we can see a brilliant synthesis of realism and stylization, flawlessly calibrated to the expressive requirements of every moment of music and drama. She always argued that everything a singer or actor must do in opera is to be found in the music, and although this obviously is not true in a literal sense, it points to the fact that in opera music is the primary medium of expression - the locus of what the work ultimately _means_ - and should govern all the artistic choices of its interpreters. When I watch Callas, what impresses me is not just the excellence of her acting but the _kind_ of acting it is, a kind that I see little of today but recognize as the sort of total-body expression of a fundamentally musical ideal which quite transcends the "real life" approach of naturalism. We often speak of Callas as having brought something new to operatic performance; but when I watch Garbo's almost uncanny illumination of human emotions in _Camille_ (and Callas said that Garbo had inspired her own Lady of the Camellias, Violetta), I have to wonder whether the greatest operatic artist of modern times may have been one of the last exemplars of an older artistic ideal.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I appreciate your remarks on acting. We can get some idea of the change in acting styles just from watching movies of various vintages. Actors became more "naturalistic" as the 20th century wore on, until in our time we have seen an endless procession of screen "actors" who stand around stupidly and mutter unintelligibly because that's the way people behave and talk in "real life" (the fact that some of us do _not_ behave and talk that way presumably proves that some of us don't live in the "real" world - for which some of us are grateful every day). Unfortunately, every time period thinks that its way is best and tends to see older styles - in musical performance too, though less so - as artificial or "quaint." As relieved as we may be to be spared the quivering vocalizations and forehead-gripping of some old-time Shakespeareans (though I suspect this is more a caricature than a reality), I think there's plenty to be learned from watching early film actors about how to make the voice and body expressive. I've long been a fan of Greta Garbo, who began acting in silent films as a teenager and who, when the talkies came in, carried into the new medium a powerful feel for "plastique," the sense of how physical movement can express a full range of emotion. I don't know much about how acting was taught in those days, but "naturalism" as we know it was certainly not the ideal. Maria Callas, in another context, made a distinction between "realism' and "truth" in art, and what we can see of her own acting in photos and on film reveals a style of acting in which the emotions expressed are virtually choreographed by her body, yet never seem artificial but rather the natural, inevitable expression of the music and character. This is true even in such a "naturalistic" work as _Tosca_, where, in the film of her performance, we can see a brilliant synthesis of realism and stylization, flawlessly calibrated to the expressive requirements of every moment of music and drama. She always argued that everything a singer or actor must do in opera is to be found in the music, and although this obviously is not true in a literal sense, it points to the fact that in opera music is the primary medium of expression - the locus of what the work ultimately _means_ - and should govern all the artistic choices of its interpreters. When I watch Callas, what impresses me is not just the excellence of her acting but the _kind_ of acting it is, a kind that I see little of today but recognize as the sort of total-body expression of a fundamentally musical ideal which quite transcends the "real life" approach of naturalism. We often speak of Callas as having brought something new to operatic performance; but when I watch Garbo's almost uncanny illumination of human emotions in _Camille_ (and Callas said that Garbo had inspired her own Lady of the Camellias, Violetta), I have to wonder whether the greatest operatic artist of modern times may have been one of the last exemplars of an older artistic ideal.


An excellent post.

If I might add something Zeffirelli said about Callas's acting. He was talking specifically about *Lucia di Lammermoor*, which he directed for Sutherland in Covent Garden, a production which transferred to Dallas where Callas sang the role. He said he gave Sutherland all sorts of things to do in the Mad Scene, like running round trying to catch her shadow and business like that, none of which, he said, would be right for Callas. He remembered seeing her in the role in Karajan's production , and how he just dimmed all the lights on stage and placed a follow spot on her. He said Callas's movements were her own, every gesture, every lift of the arm a perfect reflection of the musical phrase, stylised but perfectly at one with the music. "With a Callas, that's all you had to do," he said. "Her whole body just breathed music."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> An excellent post.
> 
> If I might add something Zeffirelli said about Callas's acting. He was talking specifically about *Lucia di Lammermoor*, which he directed for Sutherland in Covent Garden, a production which transferred to Dallas where Callas sang the role. He said he gave Sutherland all sorts of things to do in the Mad Scene, like running round trying to catch her shadow and business like that, none of which, he said, would be right for Callas. He remembered seeing her in the role in Karajan's production , and how he just dimmed all the lights on stage and placed a follow spot on her. He said Callas's movements were her own, every gesture, every lift of the arm a perfect reflection of the musical phrase, stylised but perfectly at one with the music. "With a Callas, that's all you had to do," he said. "Her whole body just breathed music."


I'm inclined to think that opera and ballet, in both of which music establishes the rhythm in which the action proceeds, are the forms of theater that allow, and even require, the performing artist to find physical forms for emotional expression which in earlier times informed "straight" acting as well. Similarly, verse drama such as Shakespeare allows for a more "musical" kind of vocal articulation than prose drama, and this was generally recognized and expected. Obviously stylization, physical or vocal, can be crude, conventionalized, and "hammy," which may be one reason it has fallen out of fashion in our more controlled, calculating, and guarded age. It takes an intuitive genius at the level of Garbo's or Callas's to show the validity and power of a style which reaches beyond the "normal" and reveals how pallid and cramped is the naturalistic ideal. "Verismo" notwithstanding, opera is not and never can be, thank goodness, a naturalistic art form!


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