# Two melodies at the same time in free counterpoint (post Renaissance)



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I think it's rather rare to find whole movements where there are actually two distinct melodies interacting at the same time, non-canonic, non-fugal. Sure, there are short passages like that here and there, and there is tons of counterpoint everywhere from Baroque to a lot of contemporary music, but actual flowing free-form polyphony that could be said to consist of two melodies above the bass/accompaniment and that lasts for most of the movement seems to be rare outside of Bach cantatas and some Baroque trio sonatas.

Any nice examples? The more the merrier.


----------



## OwenK (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm curious why you made the question so specific. Why exclude fugues? 

Would the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony count? I'm referring to the two melodies in A Minor that start out the movement.


----------



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Oh, I'm just interested in finding more music like what I described. I particularly enjoy sections like this from the symphonies of William Schuman, but I guess in such long works the composer is more interested in variety than in keeping the texture and style uniform. The only movement of his where I remember something kind of like this sort of thing dominating would be the slow movement from his 10th symphony if I recall right (haven't listened to the 8th symphony at all yet though). Bach's arias from his cantatas can be only three to four minutes long, so they're more suitable for this than ten minute movements from symphonies.

Anyway, fugues can be awesome, but they're rather different - with a lot of repetition of the subject, which tends to be short, and the texture is usually quite thick. They're also easier to find than the kind of thing that I'm looking for.

The first section of the Beethoven symphony movement is an OK suggestion in the absence of better ones. I hadn't listened to it in a long time. Thanks for mentioning it.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Vaughan Williams' Fantasia on Greensleeves also comes to mind, perhaps?


----------



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Those strings seem almost more like an accompaniment that has some melodic function at times. Anyway, I'd classify the piece as having "some" polyphony but not to a great extent.


----------



## Guest (Nov 25, 2014)

It's late, I'm tired, but I'm thinking Tippet Double Concerto?


----------



## binkley (Feb 2, 2013)

How about pretty much anything by Charles Ives? Holidays Symphony, for a specific example.


----------



## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

How about this? There are two interacting melodies around 8'50".


----------



## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

George Gershwin: Two Waltzes in C (discovered in a closet in Ira Gershwin's home ~1971)
Waltz I
Waltz II
Waltzes I & II


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Holst did this a couple of times in the final movements of his suites. A commonly-heard occurrence is in Kreisler's cadenza to the first movement of Beethoven's violin concerto, which is the cadenza most often heard. In the last part, he combines the main and subsidiary themes of the movement very nicely -- on a single violin!

Bizet also does this in the closing Farandole from his L'Arlesienne Suite No. 2, where he combines two apparently incompatible tunes. Everybody's heard this! "Order in the court, the judge is eating beans..."


----------



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks all.

I've been listening to Ives. The piano in the violin sonatas can be kind of independent, much like the piano in Schubert's Winterreise. Listened to parts of symphonies as well. More a borderline case I'd say than what I'm looking for.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Chordalrock said:


> Oh, I'm just interested in finding more music like what I described. I particularly enjoy sections like this from the symphonies of William Schuman, but I guess in such long works the composer is more interested in variety than in keeping the texture and style uniform. The only movement of his where I remember something kind of like this sort of thing dominating would be the slow movement from his 10th symphony if I recall right (haven't listened to the 8th symphony at all yet though). Bach's arias from his cantatas can be only three to four minutes long, so they're more suitable for this than ten minute movements from symphonies.
> 
> Anyway, fugues can be awesome, but they're rather different - with a lot of repetition of the subject, which tends to be short, and the texture is usually quite thick. They're also easier to find than the kind of thing that I'm looking for.
> 
> The first section of the Beethoven symphony movement is an OK suggestion in the absence of better ones. I hadn't listened to it in a long time. Thanks for mentioning it.


Try the Finale of Haydn's Symphony No. 44, not sure if that's exactly 'free counterpoint', but it's very contrapuntal. Or the Finale to his symphonies 13, 40 and 70.


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Bartok's 44 Duets for 2 Violins


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Chordalrock said:


> I think it's rather rare to find whole movements where there are actually two distinct melodies interacting at the same time, non-canonic, non-fugal. Sure, there are short passages like that here and there, and there is tons of counterpoint everywhere from Baroque to a lot of contemporary music, but actual flowing free-form polyphony that could be said to consist of two melodies above the bass/accompaniment and that lasts for most of the movement seems to be rare outside of Bach cantatas and some Baroque trio sonatas.
> 
> Any nice examples? The more the merrier.


Christian Wolff's 8th prelude
Stockhausen's Himmelfahrt
Carter's Penthode, Syringa
Shapey's Concertante 1

There are performances in JS Bach's music too, try to hear how Harnoncourt plays Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ from BWV 6. Also I think the way Bradley Brookshire plays Art of Fugue would interest you, even though the counterpoint is imitative.


----------

