# Does listening to classical music "improve" you?



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is not so often heard these days but there used to be a common view that listening to classical music (in the broadest sense) is in some way improving - that you will become a better person if you get to know Beethoven and Bartok. The same was said of the other arts and I suppose is most easily defended for literature as novels can show us how certain behaviours look and where they might lead to. But music? Really? And if you think music cannot be improving, can it be actually damaging?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I don't think it makes me become a better person but it can enhance my mood and lift my spirits. It is a form of escapism as well. Finding comfort and refuge in a world that is greater than every day life. A kind of spirituality, but nothing supernatural, just music.
Damaging? Maybe only to those already damaged.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Until the idea of streaming it certainly couldn't have improved anyone's bank balance.

More seriously, I doubt listening to classical music makes anyone a better person. Maybe listeners already have some developed sensitivities that got them there in the first place. It's very easy to assume causation.

What are we 'improving' in any case? Morals (the usual assumption)? Taste (a tricky area)? Knowledge (maybe)? I think we have enough examples from history to show that classical fans can be morally ambiguous, have questionable taste and also be not particularly knowledgable in a useful (or even useless) way.

I say that when you listen to classical music, you probably improve your ability to sit still and listen to longer pieces of music. You train your ear. Not much more.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hannibal Lecter and Ernst Stavro Blofeld vote "yes."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Alex of "A Clockwork Orange" votes "yes."


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

1. Who’s going to judge if I’m improved?
2. In what way? 
3. What criteria are applied? 
4. I’ve been listening to classical music since I was a tiny child, at what level would any improvement begin to be measured?
5. Who cares?


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## ClassicalListener (Oct 17, 2014)

Absolutely yes. It cultivates your aesthetic sense and in turn your capacity to evaluate and judge.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Such considerations go way back, but that was before MTV. They musta been outta their ever lovin’ minds! 

“Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, a charm to sadness, gaiety and life to everything; It is the essence of order and lends to all that is good, just, and beautiful.”

– Plato

“Music directly imitates the passions or states of the soul…when one listens to music that imitates a certain passion, he becomes imbued with the same passion; and if over a long time he habitually listens to music that rouses ignoble passions, his whole character will be shaped to an ignoble form.”

– Aristotle

Musical training is a more potent instrument than any other, because rhythm and harmony find their way into the inward places of the soul, on which they mightily fasten, imparting grace, and making the soul of him who is rightly educated graceful, or of him who is ill-educated ungraceful.

– Socrates

”Music takes us out of the actual and whispers to us dim secrets that startles our wonder as to who we are, and for what, whence, and whereto.”

- Ralph Waldo Emerson


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

LezLee said:


> 1. Who's going to judge if I'm improved?


I'm willing to take the assignment. It will take 3 weeks of observation, and I don't come cheap. However, a discount is applicable if you feed and house me for the 21 days. If you are agreeable, I'll send you a recommended menu. Overall, this is an offer you can't refuse. Of course, you will have to pay my travel costs. By the end of the 3 weeks, you'll feel like a million bucks except that you will be broke.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> I'm willing to take the assignment. It will take 3 weeks of observation, and I don't come cheap. However, a discount is applicable if you feed and house me for the 21 days. If you are agreeable, I'll send you a recommended menu. Overall, this is an offer you can't refuse. Of course, you will have to pay my travel costs. By the end of the 3 weeks, you'll feel like a million bucks except that you will be broke.


Do we have to put your dog up as well?


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

I am very skeptical of the premise.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Before I started listening to classical music, I had little hair, was weak and ungainly, usually incontinent, couldn't sleep through the night, and often cried for no good reason. I'm better now.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

It makes me a better performer but other than that, no...…...


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

It’s actually an interesting question (OP), albeit unanswerable, as the previous posters have indicated. I do know that I enjoy hanging out in this virtual space with like minded people who seem to have a grip on what matters in Life. Are the people here interesting because Classical Music makes them that way, or do interesting people tend to gravitate towards challenging, interesting art forms? 
My wife in a Chemotherapy Nurse at a busy Chemo Center at a Teaching Hospital. Patients and staff are very stressed. She swears that when they switched to Classical Music in the waiting area everyone’s mood improved. Of course she has a bias, as that is her favorite genre, but I do think it makes a difference


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Before I started listening to classical music, I had little hair, was weak and ungainly, usually incontinent, couldn't sleep through the night, and often cried for no good reason. I'm better now.


I am glad that your hair situation has improved


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

San Antone said:


> I am very skeptical of the premise.


I'm not. The only spirituality I have comes from music. Take it away, and I'd be a nasty predator.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hitler enjoyed Lehar, Bruckner, and Wagner. Stalin was a Mozart fan. Chairman Mao, though, was more given to poetry, including writing some fine verses.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Last week I only listened to Beethovens 15th quartet, mainly just to get to know it better...I'm still just the same. No improvement or anything, but I like the piece more now


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> I'm willing to take the assignment. It will take 3 weeks of observation, and I don't come cheap. However, a discount is applicable if you feed and house me for the 21 days. If you are agreeable, I'll send you a recommended menu. Overall, this is an offer you can't refuse. Of course, you will have to pay my travel costs. By the end of the 3 weeks, you'll feel like a million bucks except that you will be broke.


That sounds reasonable, I fancy some company. I'll think about it.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

I've definitely improved - though some might say my standard of posting is as high quality as it ever was! :devil:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Back in the '70s, LA's classical station, KFAC, ran a magazine ad with a before-and-after picture of an overweight, t-shirted man in a sofa who turned into a well-dressed, sunglassed, and trim man of distinction sitting on a Mercedes. After introducing himself as leaving a dead-end job to pursue a promising career in foreign currency manipulation, he accredited it all to listening to KFAC. The quality of music spurred him to leave evening TV for a good book instead, like Aquinas' Summa Theologica, and soon he was hanging out with Middle Eastern oil barons who would ask him, "What made you so thin, so rich, so sexy?" 

He closed with the line, "Next time you reach under your couch and start to pop that stale crumb in your mouth, ask yourself, 'Would a KFAC listener do that?"


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Everyone has been deeply affected by the music and "improved." They may just not understand exactly how because they've never given it much thought. If music is a reflection of life, then it's brought some new experience or understanding of life. At the very least, it may have expanded one's emotional depth or range. It does have the power to do more than just entertain and can stimulate thoughtfulness or reflection. Some have called it "the mirror to the self." But of course, not to those who weren't looking.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I'm pretty sure that no form of art would universally make everyone a better person. Artistry and morality don't seem to be linked, which seems to be what you're asking about. I would define improvement in a different way. I would say that appreciating and learning about as many ideas and things as possible, artistic or otherwise, "improves" a person. Along that line, I would think that someone who only listens to the most popular Baroque and Classical composers and shunning anything else causes stagnation, similar to how someone who bases their lives on age-old traditions and what older people tell them to do is stagnating.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Fredx2098 said:


> Along that line, I would think that someone who only listens to the most popular Baroque and Classical composers and shunning anything else causes stagnation, similar to how someone who bases their lives on age-old traditions and what older people tell them to do is stagnating.


That's my problem; I should be listening to younger people. Are you one of them? I could start paying attention to what you say.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> That's my problem; I should be listening to younger people. Are you one of them? I could start paying attention to what you say.


I must be on to a good thing then, I don't know anyone older than me!


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> That's my problem; I should be listening to younger people. Are you one of them? I could start paying attention to what you say.


It's probable that I'm a younger-than-average person on this site. My problem isn't with old people; it's how people presume that all older people are more wise and should be obeyed as role models without forming ideas yourself, and that a younger person couldn't have a more valid opinion than an older person. It's a pretty fundamental aspect of society.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

I'd say no.
...........


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

It often makes me feel better. Does that count?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

JAS said:


> It often makes me feel better. Does that count?


It should count. Let's say the improvement is temporary; that's enough for me. Makes me go back for more.

I must be an addict...:tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Allen Forte thinks so.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

Oh my god an Allen Forte documentary!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Hitler enjoyed Lehar, Bruckner, and Wagner. Stalin was a Mozart fan. Chairman Mao, though, was more given to poetry, including writing some fine verses.


I'm sure that whatever good was in these men, music enhanced it and made them better than if they'd never heard music. The rest is history...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

There's that quote attributed to Lenin about Beethoven's Appassionata Sonata: "I cannot listen to music too often. It affects my nerves and makes me want to say sweet nothings and stroke the heads of men who live in a dirty hell and can still create such beauty. But these days you can't go around stroking people's heads lest your hand be bitten off. You have to
smash them over the head—smash them without mercy—even though in theory we are against every form of oppression of mankind . . . ours is a hellish task."

History may have been different if someone would have just snuck an iPod with some earbuds into his waistcoat.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Fredx2098 said:


> It's probable that I'm a younger-than-average person on this site. My problem isn't with old people; it's how people presume that all older people are more wise and should be obeyed as role models without forming ideas yourself, and that a younger person couldn't have a more valid opinion than an older person. It's a pretty fundamental aspect of society.


That's not how I see it. It's amazing how different the perspectives are of a young person vs. a senior person. There's a lot of age discrimination lurking about, and goes in both directions.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> That's not how I see it. It's amazing how different the perspectives are of a young person vs. a senior person. There's a lot of age discrimination lurking about, and goes in both directions.


Haven't you heard the adage "obey your elders"? As a child I was always told "obey/respect your elders" and "do what you're told". I'm not going to respect and obey someone just because they're older than I am. I give everyone a base amount of respect until they prove that they're worthy or not worthy of respect. If someone looks down upon me because I'm younger, then I won't respect that person. The common mindset of a parent is that they are owed respect while they treat their children with no respect. If you don't discriminate by age, that's great, neither do I, but I'm not making stuff up.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> The common mindset of a parent is that they are owed respect while they treat their children with no respect.


Common mindset? There are, of course, people, not just parents, who demand respect without earning it, but you make it sound as though it's an inevitable part of being a parent.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> Common mindset? There are, of course, people, not just parents, who demand respect without earning it, but you make it sound as though it's an inevitable part of being a parent.


I'm sure there are good parents out there, but 100% of parents I've encountered have bad personalities like that. It's very socially acceptable and seems to be the norm in my experience. A parent acting like that is worse than a non-parent acting like that, and it's made worse because it's socially acceptable and expected.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> I'm sure there are good parents out there, but 100% of parents I've encountered have bad personalities like that. It's very socially acceptable and seems to be the norm in my experience. A parent acting like that is worse than a non-parent acting like that, and it's made worse because it's socially acceptable and expected.


I'm sorry that your experience has so jaded you. Perhaps when you're a parent...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I started listening to classical about a year ago and I doubt it has made me a better person. If anything, it has consumed a lot of my time. Many mass murderers of history liked classical music - most of the Nazi criminals or comrade generalissimo Stalin.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> I'm sorry that your experience has so jaded you. Perhaps when you're a parent...


I'm never going to have children, not just because I dislike small children, but because I think humans are absurdly overpopulated and it's helping to ruin the earth and society, and also because I know how horrible it can be to simply be born. My life is incessant physical and mental anguish. I'm unable to even enjoy sitting or lying down, and sleeping or rather trying to sleep is extremely intense daily torture. I go to sleep feeling horrible, I wake up feeling worse, and I'm in misery all day. All I look forward to is my death.

Sorry for the tangent.


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## sed1 (Jul 18, 2018)

I just feel different since i started making my own music and listening to classical or film pieces.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The only way that listening to any music improves me is when I find out something I didn't know (eg the song / piece is about a specific event or time in history). Then I go away and find out about it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It enriches me and effects my mood. Classical sharpens my mind and ignites my soul, not all Classical, but the Classical I love, does do this!


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## James Mann (Sep 6, 2016)

Not any more than any other genre of music but yes it does


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

DeepR said:


> I don't think it makes me become a better person but it can enhance my mood and lift my spirits. It is a form of escapism as well. Finding comfort and refuge in a world that is greater than every day life. A kind of spirituality, but nothing supernatural, just music.
> Damaging? Maybe only to those already damaged.


On an average day I go to work by train and there's all sorts of things going through my mind. I may be stressed out by the amount of work I have to do, or bothered by the way some things are going. Then I put on Bruckner's 9th symphony and I'm completely blown away. Cleansed. What was I even worried about?
Great music makes me realize the insignificance of the little things that bother me in daily life. There is a far greater world out there, in music. This changes my perspective and makes life a little easier. So in that way I guess it does improve me.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Fredx2098 said:


> I'm never going to have children, not just because I dislike small children, but because I think humans are absurdly overpopulated and it's helping to ruin the earth and society, and also because I know how horrible it can be to simply be born. My life is incessant physical and mental anguish. I'm unable to even enjoy sitting or lying down, and sleeping or rather trying to sleep is extremely intense daily torture. I go to sleep feeling horrible, I wake up feeling worse, and I'm in misery all day. All I look forward to is my death.
> 
> Sorry for the tangent.


I'm really sorry to hear that life is so grim for you at the moment. But I also know you from your posts here as someone who has enthusiasm, love and, perhaps, even peak experiences from some music. I'm not saying that should make things better but I am saying that it does seem that there are flashes of light in your darkness.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm really sorry to hear that life is so grim for you at the moment. But I also know you from your posts here as someone who has enthusiasm, love and, perhaps, even peak experiences from some music. I'm not saying that should make things better but I am saying that it does seem that there are flashes of light in your darkness.


Art, and music specifically, is my favorite part of life. It's the best thing that can be done in physical reality I think, to express and share metaphysical ideas. Sometimes music causes physical euphoria that takes the pain away, like when I jam with a full band or see an awesome concert. It's pretty interesting how that happens. There are probably some people who listen to classical music in a pretentious way, but if someone listens to music and experiences art with an open mind and pure intentions, I think it can definitely improve a person's mindset and outlook, and maybe even cause an "enlightened" feeling or euphoria like I've experienced. But to refer to your original post, I don't think that just listening to what others say you should be listening to would cause improvement. That seems more likely to foster a pretentious attitude. But if someone has a real, pure desire to experience art and music, then I think they would be improving.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Fredx2098 said:


> I'm never going to have children, not just because I dislike small children, but because I think humans are absurdly overpopulated and it's helping to ruin the earth and society, and also because I know how horrible it can be to simply be born. My life is incessant physical and mental anguish. I'm unable to even enjoy sitting or lying down, and sleeping or rather trying to sleep is extremely intense daily torture. I go to sleep feeling horrible, I wake up feeling worse, and I'm in misery all day. All I look forward to is my death.
> 
> Sorry for the tangent.


I wish you well. And I hope you find a way to cope with all this dross you're going through.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I wish you well. And I hope you find a way to cope with all this dross you're going through.


Thank you. I guess music is my coping mechanism, Feldman is like a nice massage! Then I guess metal is like some nice exercise.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_effect


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Does listening to classical music improve me? Dunno. I can honestly say that CM gives me time to step aside from the everyday, to focus on something external, to recognise and appreciate the shapes and patterns that it makes. All of that probably allows me to be slightly less of an anxiety-ridden depressive wreck than I might otherwise be. However, I cannot rule out the possibility that some other creative focus would have had the same effect had I, for example, become equally enthusiastic about Flemish art or Japanese poetry. It's an uncontrolled experiment with no clear criteria for failure, and the scientist in me just can't be doing with that.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

larold said:


> Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_effect


Actually, that's a "No".


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

larold said:


> Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_effect


 Absolutely.  Great to study or work to.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Absolutely. Great to study or work to.


You did read the article, didn't you?

(Why do I suspect you've got me on 'ignore'?)


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> I'm never going to have children, not just because I dislike small children, but because I think humans are absurdly overpopulated and it's helping to ruin the earth and society, and also because I know how horrible it can be to simply be born. My life is incessant physical and mental anguish. I'm unable to even enjoy sitting or lying down, and sleeping or rather trying to sleep is extremely intense daily torture. I go to sleep feeling horrible, I wake up feeling worse, and I'm in misery all day. All I look forward to is my death.
> 
> Sorry for the tangent.


Sorry to hear of your troubles. Is this the result of a treatable medical condition? (Feel free to inform me it is none of my business.)


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## derin684 (Feb 14, 2018)

My opinion is, nothing can help you if you don't want to be a better person. But on the other hand if you want to be a better person, you can achieve your goal without music, but music will surely help you on the process.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Although I have said that listening to classical music improves me, the statement does not apply to all types of classical music. There is classical music that irritates me - very syrupy works and Italian opera.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Sorry to hear of your troubles. Is this the result of a treatable medical condition? (Feel free to inform me it is none of my business.)


I know about as much as I've shared in that post and a couple others. I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which seems to mean pain without an apparent cause (though somehow there's a new test for it now for which I tested positive). I've tried all the common treatments like anti-depressants and nothing does anything, except opioids and benzodiazepines which do about as much or more harm than good. It's been getting progressively worse for 7-8 years since I was 12 or so, starting in my neck and spreading to all of my joints and then the intensity exponentially increasing.

I didn't mean to derail things, but I guess it doesn't hurt (lolz) to talk about a tangent a little bit.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> I know about as much as I've shared in that post and a couple others. I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which seems to mean pain without an apparent cause (though somehow there's a new test for it now for which I tested positive). I've tried all the common treatments like anti-depressants and nothing does anything, except opioids and benzodiazepines which do about as much or more harm than good. It's been getting progressively worse for 7-8 years since I was 12 or so, starting in my neck and spreading to all of my joints and then the intensity exponentially increasing.
> 
> I didn't mean to derail things, but I guess it doesn't hurt (lolz) to talk about a tangent a little bit.


 Sorry to hear about this, Fredx. May you somehow be led to the people who can help you.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Sorry to hear about this, Fredx. May you somehow be led to the people who can help you.


My next swing at it is a treatment with ketamine that's supposed to "shut off" and "reset" my nerves. It seems promising, at least more promising than trying a bunch of different pills. But of course in the medical world it takes a few weeks to take a baby step.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> My next swing at it is a treatment with ketamine that's supposed to "shut off" and "reset" my nerves. It seems promising, at least more promising than trying a bunch of different pills. But of course in the medical world it takes a few weeks to take a baby step.


Sounds promising. You have a good spirit and sound like a fine young man. May you feel better soon. Without mentioning the details, I've dealt with chronic health problems from a very early age, gone through a number of surgeries, and been greatly helped by alternative medicine, the neurosciences (meditation and biofeedback), acupuncture, massage, and other such natural measures. I didn't want to be numbed with pharmaceuticals and pain killers, and I have largely been able to avoid them. Don't give up. Glad you have the music you love. Wishing you well!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> I know about as much as I've shared in that post and a couple others. I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which seems to mean pain without an apparent cause (though somehow there's a new test for it now for which I tested positive). I've tried all the common treatments like anti-depressants and nothing does anything, except opioids and benzodiazepines which do about as much or more harm than good. It's been getting progressively worse for 7-8 years since I was 12 or so, starting in my neck and spreading to all of my joints and then the intensity exponentially increasing.
> 
> I didn't mean to derail things, but I guess it doesn't hurt (lolz) to talk about a tangent a little bit.


Very sorry to hear that. I can imagine that it is frustrating to be diagnosed with a condition which does not have a know cause or an effective treatment. My only advice is to steer clear of the opioids, if possible. They can be very effective for short term relief, but then your nervous system habituates to them and you end up with the same pain level and an opioid addiction.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> I know about as much as I've shared in that post and a couple others. I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which seems to mean pain without an apparent cause (though somehow there's a new test for it now for which I tested positive). I've tried all the common treatments like anti-depressants and nothing does anything, except opioids and benzodiazepines which do about as much or more harm than good. It's been getting progressively worse for 7-8 years since I was 12 or so, starting in my neck and spreading to all of my joints and then the intensity exponentially increasing.
> 
> I didn't mean to derail things, but I guess it doesn't hurt (lolz) to talk about a tangent a little bit.


Any help here (or via the links?). I know it's a UK site, but is a trusted one (the National Health Service):

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fibromyalgia/treatment/


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Very sorry to hear that. I can imagine that it is frustrating to be diagnosed with a condition which does not have a know cause or an effective treatment. My only advice is to steer clear of the opioids, if possible. They can be very effective for short term relief, but then your nervous system habituates to them and you end up with the same pain level and an opioid addiction.


It's quite frustrating. It's funny, I've had a bunch of tests, and the doctors always seem happy to say that everything came back negative. It's not such a happy result in this situation. I wish I could steer clear of opioids. I'm definitely addicted, and I don't know which is worse: the addiction or the withdrawal. I'm terrified of the withdrawal, but that's just my visceral reaction. I've had a less horrible experience with an "herbal remedy" that was legal in Illinois, but I'm in Indiana now. It seems like America's reaction to the opioid crisis is to limit people's access to it and not allow the use of other safer methods of pain relief.


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

For the little that it's worth, I think that if by 'improve' is meant, bringing something beneficial into a person's outlook, then I feel it's the way one listens to anything, rather what one listens to, that affects how improving it might be.

Clearly it's the person that does the 'improving', the classical music (or whatever) is just the raw material they work with, so listening in an engaged way, rather than passively, seems more likely to give your brain its vitamins, or so my inner Matron is telling me. 

There's an old quote along the lines of, 'A book is like a mirror, if an idiot looks in, don't expect a genius to look out', and as a frequently idiotic person, I can confirm the truth of that, certainly round here.


And my sympathies to you also, Fredx2098, that sounds really tough. I very much hope things improve soon.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2018

I can relate. My Mom was addicted to prescribed opioids at the age of 84 due to a "pain specialist" treating her for a spinal stenosis which was causing chronic pain. She almost overdosed on at least one occasion on the prescribed opioid regime. This "pain specialist" must have been under some sort of legal scrutiny, and cut her off cold turkey. She ended up in the emergency room multiple times for high blood pressure, then in methadone rehab, then had other complications. She seems to be coming to equilibrium finally.

I see a very fine distinction between the U.S. health care system and an organized crime syndicate.

I'd advise you to get off opioids ASAP, it may be making your condition worse. The best guess is the fibromyalgia is an imbalance in the pain response of the central nervous system, then you want to layer habituation to opioids on top of that?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

dogen said:


> Any help here (or via the links?). I know it's a UK site, but is a trusted one (the National Health Service):
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fibromyalgia/treatment/


I've tried just about every drug and method listed there unfortunately. It seems like fibromyalgia is usually light/moderate pain in response to pressure, so treating it with tylenol and light exercise is more feasible, but my pain is more on the extremely intense non-stop side. The ketamine treatment seems like a fair bet. Unfortunately, I went there a week or so ago, and apparently some drugs I was on conflicted with it, so I have to wait a few more weeks.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Fredx2018
> 
> I can relate. My Mom was addicted to prescribed opioids at the age of 84 due to a "pain specialist" treating her for a spinal stenosis which was causing chronic pain. She almost overdosed on at least one occasion on the prescribed opioid regime. This "pain specialist" must have been under some sort of legal scrutiny, and cut her off cold turkey. She ended up in the emergency room multiple times for high blood pressure, then in methadone rehab, then had other complications. She seems to be coming to equilibrium finally.
> 
> ...


That sounds horrible. Isn't stopping cold-turkey harmful? Did that happen in the US? The healthcare system here seems like a ridiculous convoluted joke. Obviously universal healthcare is less important than military spending. I'm lucky to be part of a well-off family so I don't have to worry about the financial side. If I had to worry about that it would be about 100 times worse than it already is.

Not to put any medical dependence on you, but do you think benzodiazepines are less harmful than opioids? I'm addicted to both, but they're the only things that have ever had an effect.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> That sounds horrible. Isn't stopping cold-turkey harmful? Did that happen in the US? The healthcare system here seems like a ridiculous convoluted joke. Obviously universal healthcare is less important than military spending. I'm lucky to be part of a well-off family so I don't have to worry about the financial side. If I had to worry about that it would be about 100 times worse than it already is.
> 
> Not to put any medical dependence on you, but do you think benzodiazepines are less harmful than opioids? I'm addicted to both, but they're the only things that have ever had an effect.


Fred, I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles. I take Ativan (a Benzo) for Anxiety attacks, PRN. I haven't had any issues with addiction though.

I hope you find comfort, and fast.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> That sounds horrible. Isn't stopping cold-turkey harmful? Did that happen in the US? The healthcare system here seems like a ridiculous convoluted joke. Obviously universal healthcare is less important than military spending. I'm lucky to be part of a well-off family so I don't have to worry about the financial side. If I had to worry about that it would be about 100 times worse than it already is.
> 
> Not to put any medical dependence on you, but do you think benzodiazepines are less harmful than opioids? I'm addicted to both, but they're the only things that have ever had an effect.


Yes, in the U.S.

My Mom's primary care physician also though it was irresponsible and dangerous to cut the opioids off without tapering. There was nothing he could do. You have to have a special license to prescribe them.

Comparing opioids to benzodiazepines, I haven't taken either (except three oxy pills when I had a root canal procedure). I think my father used to take Valium for anxiety, which is a benzodiazepine. It seemed pretty benign compared with the opioids.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Fred, I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles. I take Ativan (a Benzo) for Anxiety attacks, PRN. I haven't had any issues with addiction though.
> 
> I hope you find comfort, and fast.


Has it helped you? I used to have anxiety attacks but now it has developed into generalized anxiety. I've had GAD for so long now that I'm numb to it, and I no longer have fluctuations of anxiety, but I also don't care about anxiety, even when anxiety would be an appropriate response, because it's the norm for me. Benzos definitely help me relax, if they don't necessarily help the pain directly.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Yes, in the U.S.
> 
> My Mom's primary care physician also though it was irresponsible and dangerous to cut the opioids off without tapering. There was nothing he could do. You have to have a special license to prescribe them.
> 
> Comparing opioids to benzodiazepines, I haven't taken either (except three oxy pills when I had a root canal procedure). I think my father used to take Valium for anxiety, which is a benzodiazepine. It seemed pretty benign compared with the opioids.


America's response to the "opioid crisis" seems like it will cause more of a crisis that the opioids. Everything about the healthcare here seems backwards and absurd.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> Has it helped you? I used to have anxiety attacks but now it has developed into generalized anxiety. I've had GAD for so long now that I'm numb to it, and I no longer have fluctuations of anxiety, but I also don't care about anxiety, even when anxiety would be an appropriate response, because it's the norm for me. Benzos definitely help me relax, if they don't necessarily help the pain directly.


Yes, Benzos are a miracle for anxiety, though they must be taken with extreme caution and care.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think Classical helps me with memory, attention span and concentration skills since it takes all this for me to engage with it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Fredx2098 said:


> It's quite frustrating. It's funny, I've had a bunch of tests, and the doctors always seem happy to say that everything came back negative. It's not such a happy result in this situation. I wish I could steer clear of opioids. I'm definitely addicted, and I don't know which is worse: the addiction or the withdrawal. I'm terrified of the withdrawal, but that's just my visceral reaction. I've had a less horrible experience with an "herbal remedy" that was legal in Illinois, but I'm in Indiana now. It seems like America's reaction to the opioid crisis is to limit people's access to it and not allow the use of other safer methods of pain relief.


Your situation sounds awful. What can I or anyone say? I guess you are left with finding a balance between the sustainable plus sides and the downsides of various medical options. That herbal remedy may be a good bet if it works for you. I know people who get it in capsule form for pain management and who think it is their best option. But ketamine must be worth trying as there seem to be research coming in at the moment that is finding interesting new benefits from it.

I hope it is not in bad taste to mention music that was influenced or even "inspired" by the experience of acute pain. Allan Pettersson spent most of his life with extreme pain (from rheumatoid arthritis). His music is intense but not (IMO!!!) ugly. I'm not sure if he would be your thing. Also, two (live) albums by Miles Davis - Agharta and Pangaea - were made when he was reportedly in pretty bad shape. They are quite unlike anything else he did and I think you can certainly hear the pain. I enjoyed them most during the period that my father was dying and I was driving 300 mile round trips to visit him quite often. Sometimes art that reflects what is going on inside you can lift you even when your situation is grim and the art depicts grimness.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Your situation sounds awful. What can I or anyone say? I guess you are left with finding a balance between the sustainable plus sides and the downsides of various medical options. That herbal remedy may be a good bet if it works for you. I know people who get it in capsule form for pain management and who think it is their best option. But ketamine must be worth trying as there seem to be research coming in at the moment that is finding interesting new benefits from it.
> 
> I hope it is not in bad taste to mention music that was influenced or even "inspired" by the experience of acute pain. Allan Pettersson spent most of his life with extreme pain (from rheumatoid arthritis). His music is intense but not (IMO!!!) ugly. I'm not sure if he would be your thing. Also, two (live) albums by Miles Davis - Agharta and Pangaea - were made when he was reportedly in pretty bad shape. They are quite unlike anything else he did and I think you can certainly hear the pain. I enjoyed them most during the period that my father was dying and I was driving 300 mile round trips to visit him quite often. Sometimes art that reflects what is going on inside you can lift you even when your situation is grim and the art depicts grimness.


I'm grateful for the the sympathy, but I hope I'm not bumming people out. It's hard to say if the medicine I'm taking has plus sides or if I'm just staving off withdrawal. It's really sad and infuriating that a plant that is perfect for long-term treatment of pain and a myriad of other health problems without physical addiction is illegal on the same level as heroin.

I don't think that's in bad taste. I think music that expresses mental/physical anguish can be wonderfully cathartic. I'm not of the mindset that only happy emotions can be beautiful. Heck, Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello is my favorite Feldman piece and favorite piece in general because I feel like I can hear him slipping away.... It's a totally heartbreaking piece in my opinion.

I'll check out Petterson! I like my fair share of intense music. Most things are my thing, but not everything is as much of my thing as other things (that's a mouthful).

I'll check out those Miles Davis albums. What kind of bad shape? I'd probably guess drug addiction for a jazz cat. Are you familiar with the tragic story of Bill Evans? It seems like he just gave up on life after his brother killed himself, and he drank and used heroin and cocaine until he died. His last albums are pretty sad.

I think that listening to sad music when you're sad is nice or even pleasant in a way, because I feel like you can form an empathetic link with the music and it could help you feel like you're not alone.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Fredx2098 said:


> I'm grateful for the the sympathy, but I hope I'm not bumming people out. It's hard to say if the medicine I'm taking has plus sides or if I'm just staving off withdrawal. It's really sad and infuriating that a plant that is perfect for long-term treatment of pain and a myriad of other health problems without physical addiction is illegal on the same level as heroin.
> 
> I'll check out those Miles Davis albums. What kind of bad shape? I'd probably guess drug addiction for a jazz cat. Are you familiar with the tragic story of Bill Evans? It seems like he just gave up on life after his brother killed himself, and he drank and used heroin and cocaine until he died. His last albums are pretty sad.


We have the same thing in Britain: all sorts of drugs (including those with terrible downsides) can be prescribed for you by doctors but medical cannabis has only just become a possibility here and only in a very limited way. If it was a profitable synthesised drug it would be available on prescription (the evidence for its efficacy is probably sufficiently strong now) but as a medicine it is still governed by the Home Ministry (law and order, etc) rather than the Health ministry. I don't know why. It matters to me because my wife has some chronic pain problems and takes a lot of medicine that she would rather not take. I don't think you are bumming people out, by the way. I guess hearing of difficulties like yours makes our own problems seem less.

I think in the mid-70s Miles had arthritic problems - he eventually had a hip replacement (quite a new thing then) - as well as the inevitable drug problems. It also seems that he had lip troubles and his playing on those albums is like a cry of pain rather than music! I do know Bill Evans but hadn't picked up on what you say about his late output. I look it out.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

@Fredx2098, if you have fibromyalgia and GAD, try experimenting with vitamins and minerals. Painkillers usually do not help with fibromyalgia, so it makes little sense to eat NSAIDs or opioids and benzos are outright harmful for long term treatment (addiction potential with worsening of the anxiety)

try the following minerals and vitamins - vitamin D, vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin K2, magnesium, selenium, iodine, boron

selenium
http://www.fibromyalgiatreating.com/selenium-deficiency/
the best selenium source are brazil nuts

vitamin D
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-vitamin-d-helps-ms-fibromyalgia-sufferers-012214
sunbathing or drop supplements (at least 5000 IU daily)

iodine
https://www.nutrientinsider.com/New...Vitamins-Completely-Reverse-Fibromyalgia-.htm
iodine can be absorbed through skin, so just buy Betadine (iodine povidon) and apply it to your skin

magnesium is an important cofactor that needs to be taken with vitamin D, it is calming and reduces anxiety. Just buy some tablets and eat like 400mg daily

vitamin K2
https://www.westonaprice.org/health...-a-sixty-two-year-old-mystery-finally-solved/

this treatment will probably be more effective than all psychopharmaka and painkillers


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Returning to the thread, it seems most do not expect music to improve _them_ (or others!) but that some feel it improves the quality of their lives. I wonder, if we consider the more literal arts - fiction, literary essays, and perhaps figurative painting - whether there is more belief that art can improve us? It certainly ought to be the case for fiction that shows us bad behaviour and its consequences and morally dubious behaviour more generally! And it would seem that the "types" gently satirised by, say, Jane Austen might also act as warnings to us when seen through her lens. But I am not at all sure that even here there is any real evidence that we are improved by art.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

Cannabis is treated in an irrational way because it became popular as a "recreational" drug and attracted law enforcement interest. But you can go too far in the other direction, as well. It is not clear to me that it really is the harmless panacea that some people assume it is. Any consciousness altering substance is likely to alter brain chemistry if used continuously and there are reports that Cannabis can induce psychotic episodes in people who have a susceptibility to them. 

The sad fact is that the nervous system is self-regulating and a neurological condition often means that the regulation mechanism is unbalanced. Taking a medication that alters the brain by boosting or suppressing a neurotransmitter may work temporarily, until he brain notices what is going on and restores itself to the same unbalanced state. It's like lighting the fireplace with the air conditioner running. It will get warm at first, until the thermostat kicks in and you are back to the same temperature, with the fireplace and AC canceling each other out.

When opioids were first developed it was immediately recognized that the are rapidly habituated. They were strictly limited to short term use. Then in the 1990's the pharma companies "discovered" that opioids can be used for long term use, despite the fact that there was absolutely no research demonstrating their utility beyond a 6 month period. What they really discovered is that they could make huge sums of money by addicting a substantial part of the population to opioids by giving doctors kickbacks for prescribing opioids. This is a far worse situation than the knee-jerk opposition to cannabis.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Cannabis is treated in an irrational way because it became popular as a "recreational" drug and attracted law enforcement interest. But you can go too far in the other direction, as well. It is not clear to me that it really is the harmless panacea that some people assume it is. Any consciousness altering substance is likely to alter brain chemistry if used continuously and there are reports that Cannabis can induce psychotic episodes in people who have a susceptibility to them.
> 
> The sad fact is that the nervous system is self-regulating and a neurological condition often means that the regulation mechanism is unbalanced. Taking a medication that alters the brain by boosting or suppressing a neurotransmitter may work temporarily, until he brain notices what is going on and restores itself to the same unbalanced state. It's like lighting the fireplace with the air conditioner running. It will get warm at first, until the thermostat kicks in and you are back to the same temperature, with the fireplace and AC canceling each other out.
> 
> When opioids were first developed it was immediately recognized that the are rapidly habituated. They were strictly limited to short term use. Then in the 1990's the pharma companies "discovered" that opioids can be used for long term use, despite the fact that there was absolutely no research demonstrating their utility beyond a 6 month period. What they really discovered is that they could make huge sums of money by addicting a substantial part of the population to opioids by giving doctors kickbacks for prescribing opioids. This is a far worse situation than the knee-jerk opposition to cannabis.


I think quite a few people - I seem to know a good number - cannot get a "normal" quality of life. It is for them a question of balancing "mind altering" (these effects can be very varied and some choice is possible) and pain reducing effects to arrive at a balance that is tolerable. I am not sure about the universality of tolerance effects across different substances as people I know who need to manage pain suggest that these vary greatly between medicines. I also know many people who will cut out one or other medicine for a while (perhaps boosting one of their other meds to compensate) to help it regain its effectiveness and to keep the extent of their addiction in check. Opioids are used to render pain less distressing and abused to render life less distressing. Most addicts can and do manage their physical dependencies but it is the mental ones - life seems empty without the drug - that make opioids so difficult to kick.

As for the finding that cannabis can lead to psychotic breakdowns in some people, there are many who believe that only some of the various active ingredients in cultivated cannabis are responsible for these effects. A legal medical strain that avoided these could be developed but when people rely on the black market they don't get to choose.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yes, I think music and art will make you a better person, because art is a "religion" of sorts; it functions like a good religion should; it is a spiritual tool, a technology, that gets us in touch with the 'higher' aspects of our being. 
Even atheists are improved by it, for example, by listening to, say, Wagner. 
Even scientific materialists benefit from music. 
It is a 'given' that music affects our being, and connects us to forces which are greater than ourselves, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, I think music and art will make you a better person, because art is a "religion" of sorts; it functions like a good religion should; it is a spiritual tool, a technology, that gets us in touch with the 'higher' aspects of our being.
> Even atheists are improved by it, for example, by listening to, say, Wagner.
> Even scientific materialists benefit from music.
> It is a 'given' that music affects our being, and connects us to forces which are greater than ourselves, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.


Are you in earnest? What do you mean "atheists are improved by it"? Improved how? In what way are scientific materialists lacking in a way that music can 'cure' them?

Music is no religion and it's a bit tiresome reading you foisting this dimension of your own onto it and claiming it as some sort of universal truth. If you want to be religious do it in your own time.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

It occurs to me that some people like to think that "Man created Man" and that Man is an isolated self-contained crature who is not "tuned in" to any sort of universal knowledge or awareness. This is certainly not the view of most composers, like Beethoven, Messiaen, Cage or any number of the "greats." They all had some awareness of 'the sacred' and 'spiritual' dimension of music.

What, then is the meaning of music which does not include the human elements of "resonance" and empathy? It seems that it would be on the verge of being emblematic or simply an agreed-upon term, with no real connection to human psychology or the fact that "God gave us brains."

In my view, "psychological/spiritual phenomena" can be linked to music and to spirituality, or a sacred sense of being.

How can music work by itself apart from any connection to our psychology as humans? How could that be?


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I think quite a few people - I seem to know a good number - cannot get a "normal" quality of life. It is for them a question of balancing "mind altering" (these effects can be very varied and some choice is possible) and pain reducing effects to arrive at a balance that is tolerable. I am not sure about the universality of tolerance effects across different substances as people I know who need to manage pain suggest that these vary greatly between medicines. I also know many people who will cut out one or other medicine for a while (perhaps boosting one of their other meds to compensate) to help it regain its effectiveness and to keep the extent of their addiction in check. Opioids are used to render pain less distressing and abused to render life less distressing. Most addicts can and do manage their physical dependencies but it is the mental ones - life seems empty without the drug - that make opioids so difficult to kick.


The problem with opioids and pain is that after you are habituated you will get a huge spike in pain if you discontinue them. This leads to the thought that "oh my god, if not for opioids I would have this huge pain all the time." That is an illusion. What data there is indicates that after habituation people experience the same level of pain that the would have had if they had never taken opioids. The extreme pain they experience upon discontinuation represents at best a withdrawal symptom, and at worst permanent damage to their nervous symptoms. It is a level of pain that they would never have experience if they had stayed away from opioids.

It is wishful thinking to believe that opioids are difficult to kick just for those whose life seems empty without it. For those who are addicted at a sufficiently high dosage withdrawing opioids can cause death in short order.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> or the fact that "God gave us brains."


That's not a fact, it's your opinion. If it were a fact I'd have urged you to make an appeal to him.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> It occurs to me that some people like to think that "Man created Man" and that Man is an isolated self-contained crature who is not "tuned in" to any sort of universal knowledge or awareness.


I don't think there are many people on this planet that think man is an isolated self-contained creature. Even the most anti-spiritual materialist will recognize that man is an intensely social animal that derives satisfaction through social relationships with his or her community. Music at its most superficial is an entertainment, and at its most profound is a social activity that can also evoke "spiritual" feelings of meaning and belonging. And so, of course, the apparent power of music comes form its ability to couple to human psychology. I don't see that "universal knowledge or awareness" (whatever you mean by that) is necessary.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

In reference to my earlier post,"So to speak." I have no private hot line to the transcendental.
But, hey, we are part of something we did not create. Aren't we? And isn't music part of that?
_(exits stage left, levitated and floating, suspended in air by his own bootstraps)_


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> For those who are addicted at a sufficiently high dosage withdrawing opioids can cause death in short order.


contrary to popular belief, opioid (and amphetamines) withdrawal is not dangerous or life-threatening. Yes, the junkies get terrible muscle pains, feel really bad, get runny nose, tearing, anxiety etc but the risk of death is low. Benzos and alcohol are much more dangerous because of the risk of developing delirium or epileptic seisures. If I should chose between a benzo or opioid addiction, I would chose the opioid. The benzos are more difficult to overcome and the withdrawal symptoms can last years. 

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/3etvnk


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

Jacck said:


> contrary to popular belief, opioid (and amphetamines) withdrawal is not dangerous or life-threatening.


It was dangerous to my relative, who ended up in the E.R. with life threatening blood pressure and elevated temperature 48 hours after withdrawal of opioids by her "pain specialist." That is not to say that withdrawal from other medications can be just as bad or worse.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Hannibal Lecter and Ernst Stavro Blofeld vote "yes."


Add to that Josef Stalin

he was a big Mozart fan

I ran a classical music shop for some years an I saw all sorts of people.

Most were nice - some were unbearably over sensitive - and many were friendly - like an old guy that used to come in - a Tchaik fan - he was there one day when a young man came in asking for rap music. After he had left this old customer exposed all his racist nature - I was shocked.

I doubt if a love of classical music makes a nasty character a better person - it probably makes no difference.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

It's made me a better person. After listening to all nine Beethoven symphonies, I now support unlimited immigration into the US, and want to abolish ICE.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Cannabis is treated in an irrational way because it became popular as a "recreational" drug and attracted law enforcement interest. But you can go too far in the other direction, as well. It is not clear to me that it really is the harmless panacea that some people assume it is. Any consciousness altering substance is likely to alter brain chemistry if used continuously and there are reports that Cannabis can induce psychotic episodes in people who have a susceptibility to them.


No, cannabis is treated in an irrational way because one power-hungry racist scumbag named Harry J. Ainslinger didn't want to lose the power he had accrued enforcing alcohol prohibition once alcohol became legal again. He needed something new to demonize and new victims to terrorize, and since he hated black people and jazz, he found a drug he thought was disproportionately enjoyed at the time by this demographic. When he became head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics he launched a campaign against the drug, funding bogus research to prove its harmful effects. He jailed black jazz players singers and artists who used it, making sure they lost their cabaret licenses and livelihood in the process. Since his reign marijuana has been a Schedule 1 drug for no valid medical reason.

Oh, I almost forgot: Classical music can be a route to self-improvement for those inclined to improve themselves and will do nothing for those who are not so inclined.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

duplicate ---------------------


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I listen to Classical music, and now I smoke cannabis and love people of all races and colors.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> No, cannabis is treated in an irrational way because one power-hungry racist scumbag named Harry J. Ainslinger didn't want to lose the power he had accrued enforcing alcohol prohibition once alcohol became legal again. He needed something new to demonize and new victims to terrorize, and since he hated black people and jazz, he found a drug he thought was disproportionately enjoyed at the time by this demographic. When he became head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics he launched a campaign against the drug, funding bogus research to prove its harmful effects. He jailed black jazz players singers and artists who used it, making sure they lost their cabaret licenses and livelihood in the process. Since his reign marijuana has been a Schedule 1 drug for no valid medical reason.
> 
> Oh, I almost forgot: Classical music can be a route to self-improvement for those inclined to improve themselves and will do nothing for those who are not so inclined.


It's so ridiculous, isn't it? We know exactly why it was made illegal, and we know how well alcohol prohibition worked, yet it's somehow still illegal and still a political debate. It seems that Anslinger, Nixon, et al. have achieved exactly what they wanted: to condition America (and the rest of the world by proxy) to despise cannbis by use of racist propaganda and scare tactics. But be sure to partake in any number of wonderful alcohol and tobacco products, and have some opium pills if you don't feel well!


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## Armanvd (Jan 17, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I say that when you listen to classical music, you probably improve your ability to sit still and listen to longer pieces of music. You train your ear. Not much more.


True that.
Because in this era a lot of things (Including Social Media) is shortening people's attention time span.
It is a useful capability to be able to sit and do something with something (like work,study or more importantly listening to music)

Although I never look at "Listening to music" as a way to improve my attention time span


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## ClassicalListener (Oct 17, 2014)

Modern society is a mistake. It has lost the concept of hierarchy, the ability to recognize beauty, and the capacity for subjective judgment. That classical music makes listeners better human beings is an immediate and indisputable truth.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Fredx2098 said:


> It's so ridiculous, isn't it? We know exactly why it was made illegal, and we know how well alcohol prohibition worked, yet it's somehow still illegal and still a political debate. It seems that Anslinger, Nixon, et al. have achieved exactly what they wanted: to condition America (and the rest of the world by proxy) to despise cannbis by use of racist propaganda and scare tactics. But be sure to partake in any number of wonderful alcohol and tobacco products, and have some opium pills if you don't feel well!


I certainly would not like to undergo eye surgery by a doctor who smokes cannabis. And after some of the really strong stuff I've smoked in the past, I wouldn't want to see people driving around on the stuff at one o'clock Saturday nights on the freeway.

Face it, cannabis is a drug just like all the rest, and it impairs you to some degree, otherwise people wouldn't use it. It gets them high! All mind-altering recreational drugs are bad, including cannabis.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, I think music and art will make you a better person, because art is a "religion" of sorts; it functions like a good religion should; it is a spiritual tool, a technology, that gets us in touch with the 'higher' aspects of our being.
> Even atheists are improved by it, for example, by listening to, say, Wagner.
> Even scientific materialists benefit from music.
> It is a 'given' that music affects our being, and connects us to forces which are greater than ourselves, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.


"Even atheists ... Even scientific materialists..." 
Why should we unbelievers be somehow less susceptible to the psychological effects of music? And how is it OK to generalise in that way? Perhaps I should suggest that, for example, "Even Christians might be improved by listening to Bartok's string quartets". Anyone find that a little bit offensive?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I certainly would not like to undergo eye surgery by a doctor who smokes cannabis. And after some of the really strong stuff I've smoked in the past, I wouldn't want to see people driving around on the stuff at one o'clock Saturday nights on the freeway.
> 
> Face it, cannabis is a drug just like all the rest, and it impairs you to some degree, otherwise people wouldn't use it. It gets them high! All mind-altering recreational drugs are bad, including cannabis.


You really are talking out of ignorance. I know plenty of folks who have been daily smokers for decades - they are healthy, have high paying jobs done with excellence, raised fine children and are totally responsible adults.

Folks like you put the worst face on the subject, assuming that users are addictive fools who take great risks with the lives of others.

If you're going to make definitive statements, it's best that you leave your bias at the door and look at the real situation.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> I certainly would not like to undergo eye surgery by a doctor who smokes cannabis. And after some of the really strong stuff I've smoked in the past, I wouldn't want to see people driving around on the stuff at one o'clock Saturday nights on the freeway.
> 
> Face it, cannabis is a drug just like all the rest, and it impairs you to some degree, otherwise people wouldn't use it. It gets them high! All mind-altering recreational drugs are bad, including cannabis.


I can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek or not.

I would not like someone who's drunk to perform surgery or drive either. I also wouldn't like someone who isn't a doctor to perform surgery or for someone who doesn't know how to drive to drive. That's not a valid argument.

Do you think alcohol should still be prohibited then? That didn't work. People are always going to get drunk and high on whatever they want, and the substances being illegal just makes it more dangerous for everyone involved.

Why do you care what someone puts in their body in the safety of their own home? Being high doesn't always cause catastrophe, and being sober doesn't always make one immune to catastrophe. A sober doctor can botch a surgery just as well as one who's high. A sober person can get into a car accident just as well as someone who's high.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Let's get something straight here. A responsible surgeon is *not* going to perform a procedure while high.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Recreational use of Cannabis should be simultaneously legal and its use discouraged, similar to tobacco.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2018)

Pat Fairlea said:


> "Even atheists ... Even scientific materialists..."
> Why should we unbelievers be somehow less susceptible to the psychological effects of music? And how is it OK to generalise in that way? Perhaps I should suggest that, for example, "Even Christians might be improved by listening to Bartok's string quartets". Anyone find that a little bit offensive?


Well, a bit, I suppose, but it's in keeping with MR's habit of generalising about atheists. The Forum is littered with such posts; here's a whole thread from the discussion groups:

https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/religious-discussion-group-d1219-atheism.html


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Let's get something straight here. A responsible surgeon is *not* going to perform a procedure while high.


I remember an episode from the Simpsons where the Dr. Hibbert was goiong to perform a surgery and commented something like "with this injection, the operation is going to turn into a nice dream" and he shot the injection to himself  Unfortunately, I was not able to find out which episode it was.


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## Forss (May 12, 2017)

I find Matthew Arnold's thesis about recommending culture (fine arts) as "the great help out of our present difficulties" quite interesting, in which man, by studying the best which has been thought and said in the world, can turn "a stream of fresh and free thought upon his stock notions and habits" so as to transcend his (poor) lot and enter into that heightened sense of life (where dignity, wealth and true happiness _alone_ is to be found). It must in principle be possible for _all_ men, regardless of their social background, to rise above themselves and rejoice in disinterested pleasure, in that heightened state of being where one starts to regard wealth and outward grandeur as but machinery, as but vainglory. Just imagine what miracles a _Ninth_, a _Tristan_ or a _Faust_ could do to humanity - _if it were given access to it_!

_Nothing_ is as edifying as classical music, I think, and it _could_ (really) bring salvation to humanity: it could, as it were, be the great help out of our present difficulties.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> I certainly would not like to undergo eye surgery by a doctor who smokes cannabis. And after some of the really strong stuff I've smoked in the past, I wouldn't want to see people driving around on the stuff at one o'clock Saturday nights on the freeway.
> 
> Face it, cannabis is a drug just like all the rest, and it impairs you to some degree, otherwise people wouldn't use it. It gets them high! All mind-altering recreational drugs are bad, including cannabis.


Bad for driving or bad? Bad for pain relief?


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Well, a bit, I suppose, but it's in keeping with MR's habit of generalising about atheists. The Forum is littered with such posts; here's a whole thread from the discussion groups:
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/religious-discussion-group-d1219-atheism.html


Thanks for the link, which has reminded me why I usually keep well away from debates about religious or other beliefs! I just cannot see any credible reason why a materialist, monist unbeliever such as meself should be regarded as being at one end of the scale of "People moved +/or inspired +/or improved by music". 
In so far as I 'believe' in anything (apart, of course, from the superiority of cats), it is in Occam's Razor: entities are not to be assumed without necessity. I have yet to encounter anything in life that has necessitated assuming the existence of a Deity. Similarly with music we have the music itself and such biographical etc asociations that we may know. For me, that's enough to explain the potential of music to lift us up, to monopolise our attention, to recalibrate our mood. There is no need to posit anything else: no music of the spheres, no angelic inspiration, no vox dei. To appreciate music does not require belief in anything mystical or spiritual.

There. And I usually avoid religious debates, dammit!


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I don't know how anyone could look at the history of
20th century Europe and believe that music morally improves. Did those performances of Beethoven's Ninth for Hitler's birthday inspire in the Nazi leadership love for the brotherhood of man?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Enthusiast said:


> It is not so often heard these days but there used to be a common view that listening to classical music (in the broadest sense) is in some way improving - that you will become a better person if you get to know Beethoven and Bartok. The same was said of the other arts and I suppose is most easily defended for literature as novels can show us how certain behaviours look and where they might lead to. But music? Really? And if you think music cannot be improving, can it be actually damaging?


Ultimately music expresses all aspects of humanity, both "my shadow and my light" (a line from Michael Tippett's A Child of Our Time) and everything in between. It is a reflection of humanity in all its diversity, not only in terms of emotion but also of culture through the ages.

On the personal level, although a music can improve a person's life, it cannot improve a person as such. If that was the case a good number of musicians themselves would not qualify as_ improved people_ although they create music! The difference between liking people for what they like or what they _are_ like was at the centre of Nick Hornby's novel "High Fidelity" (the movie starred John Cusack and Jack Black as the hilarious music snob Barry). The conclusion there was that often we can be so caught up with what a person likes that we fail to notice - or perhaps willfully ignore - the less positive aspects of them.


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## Forss (May 12, 2017)

This is precisely _it_: the edifying workings of classical music. I saw a wonderful documentary yesterday, Om de wereld in 50 concerten (2014), that follows the Concertgebouw Orchestra around the world for fifty concerts, and in one scene they're interviewing a taxi driver in Buenos Aires, who happens to be a serious listener of classical music. "To be a taxi driver is a very _banal_ profession", he says, "and I spend a lot of time - nearly twelve hours a day - on the street… I don't want to be better than others, but merely not to sink to a lower level. Classical music helps me not to go backwards in my development." Nay, he needs classical music in order ro rise above the vulgarity of his profession, and this is, in my opinion, its most glorious workings and its ever-lasting gift to mankind, one that is always within one's reach, as it were, regardless of one's riches.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Tomorrow I will die. Today I'm learning Spanish.

These were the words of a professor of mine in the University.

Personally I don't listen classical music to be improved or to be better. I'm doing this because I like it and for the knowledge which makes me feel happy. Learning new things, or sharpen existing knowledge I may have is a challenge I can not resist. Don't forget: Many classical composers, conductors, interpreters etc. weren't the best characters or men...


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