# Schubert D 845 in A minor



## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Another piece that makes me want to bring up the question: Why is it not performed more often? What do you guys think about this piece by Schubert? It seems to me to be one of his most underrated and neglected pieces. I can't see why it shouldn't be regarded as high as some of his other masterpieces, like the Impromptus and the last three sonatas... Or is it just me?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

My favorite Schubert sonata next to No. 19 in C minor. It's melancholy, moody, subtle, and the slow movement is a blissful lullaby. I also agree that it should be regarded as a masterpiece.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

A couple of weeks ago I got a new recording of this, this one









and it made me think of something about the first movement. How much tempo change do you need? You could

1. Play the dreamy opening theme and the following dancing theme at (almost) the same slow dreamy tempo
2. Play the dreamy opening theme and the following dancing theme at (almost) the same fast dancing tempo
3. Play the dreamy opening theme slow and dreamily and play the dancing second theme faster and dancingly.

Managing these tempo changes seems to me to be the essential thing about playing the music.

I don't know if the score says anything explicitly about tempo changes.

Takahashi is close to 1, and that makes Schubert speak with his own distinctive voice (rather than a sub-Beethoven voice.)


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I listened to Schiff's Decca recording of the work this morning. I found it rather challenging, but quite beautiful. I ought to return to it again soon w/ score in hand. 

^I should hear that, Mandryka. I like Aki Takahashi.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> I listened to Schiff's Decca recording of the work this morning. I found it rather challenging, but quite beautiful. I ought to return to it again soon w/ score in hand.
> 
> ^I should hear that, Mandryka. I like Aki Takahashi.


The first movement has a wonderful climax, contrapuntal climax. The Takahashi is impossible to get out of Japan I'm afraid.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> The first movement has a wonderful climax, contrapuntal climax. The Takahashi is impossible to get out of Japan I'm afraid.


I found it on ebay for about 30 bucks, I'll pass for now.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

It's a great sonata but I like D784 even better, especially the 1st movement, which is also in A minor. That 1st movement is really radical.

D894 in G major is my favorite Schub.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

clavichorder said:


> It's a great sonata but I like D784 even better, especially the 1st movement, which is also in A minor. That 1st movement is really radical.
> 
> D894 in G major is my favorite Schub.


I just listened to D784, too. A beautiful work. Very direct, very dark. Almost skeletal, with all its open octaves and minor key harmonies. But then the end of the development has some of the most beautiful harmonies. Plus, there is something about it that one can't say about every Schubert sonata, and certainly not D894: it's very concise, economical, even.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Am I the only one here who never listens to the last two movements of Schubert’s piano music - or indeed his quartets?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Am I the only one here who never listens to the last two movements of Schubert's piano music - or indeed his quartets?


He wrote a symphony just for you.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Am I the only one here who never listens to the last two movements of Schubert's piano music - or indeed his quartets?


That's why the C Minor sonata is my favorite of his because it has the most convincing finale. Most times I think he needed to place the scherzo before the slow movement to prevent things from getting too top-heavy.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I think the G major and the B flat sonata have very lovely finales, and the little A major sonata also has a nice one.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

No more thoughts about this piece?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The trio in the third movement has the potential to be interesting, at least that’s what I thought when I listened to Takahashi


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> The trio in the third movement has the potential to be interesting, at least that's what I thought when I listened to Takahashi


Haha... In other words not a particularly interesting piece?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Beebert said:


> Haha... In other words not a particularly interesting piece?


No, that's not what I meant, though I can see why you took it like that.

It's just that normally I don't enjoy the last two movements of Schubert sonatas, but in that Takahashi performance, he plays the trio very statically. And that made me prick up my ears.

I like Schubert played still, played like music which doesn't move forward with a strong intention, music which is not dramatic.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

I really like this Sonata and I think it's a charming and satisfactory piece, but I maybe don't consider it so exceptional. I think that only the first movement is is at such a high level (compared to the late sonatas that I love). Not very interesting reaction, I know. But the main reason for my answer to this thread is an interesting dissertation devoted largely to this sonata. If you are interested (from p. 196):
https://orca.cf.ac.uk/54278/1/U584082.pdf


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

DaddyGeorge said:


> I really like this Sonata and I think it's a charming and satisfactory piece, but I maybe don't consider it so exceptional. I think that only the first movement is is at such a high level (compared to the late sonatas that I love). Not very interesting reaction, I know. But the main reason for my answer to this thread is an interesting dissertation devoted largely to this sonata. If you are interested (from p. 196):
> https://orca.cf.ac.uk/54278/1/U584082.pdf


Wow, very good and interesting dissertation. I liked to read it a lot!
How come you only find the first movement exceptional? I find the second movement for example to be one of the finest set of Variations that Schubert ever wrote. Certainly more interesting than the Impromptu in B-flat for example, and not at all any less interesting than the exceptional variation movement from the Trout Quintet.
And the Scherzo is harmonically interesting and inventive, with a very moving trio. And the finale... If played like Richter plays it for example, it is one of the greater finales in all of the sonatas I think. There is something scary about it.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

^^^^^
It's a brilliant Sonata, I absolutely agree. I just appreciate the late sonatas a little more. Variations are really beautiful (I'm listening to them right now with Seymour Lipkin) but slow movements from late sonatas (especially D. 960) maybe have more depth... at least it seems to me that way. Perhaps I'm partly influenced by the story of their origin. 
D. 845 is a beautiful work, no doubt! I'm sorry to say, for me it's still number 5 among Schubert's Piano Sonatas (because I also love D. 784).


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

DaddyGeorge said:


> ^^^^^
> It's a brilliant Sonata, I absolutely agree. I just appreciate the late sonatas a little more. Variations are really beautiful (I'm listening to them right now with Seymour Lipkin) but slow movements from late sonatas (especially D. 960) maybe have more depth... at least it seems to me that way. Perhaps I'm partly influenced by the story of their origin.
> D. 845 is a beautiful work, no doubt! I'm sorry to say, for me it's still number 5 among Schubert's Piano Sonatas (because I also love D. 784).


Yes I certainly agree with you, D 960 is on a planet of its own for me... Almost nothing that I know of in the whole piano literature reaches the same emotional depth as that second movement.
I do prefer D 845 to D 958 though, I find it a more succesful work, and I know Schubert regarded it highly himself. I place it number 3 or 4 among the sonatas, after D 960, D 959 and PERHAPS D 894.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Probably, but at times Schubert's 'heavenly length' does run away with him. There are often too many repetitions. Probably the 'Great C Major' is the worst offender. But the themes are so interesting!


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Beebert said:


> Yes I certainly agree with you, D 960 is on a planet of its own for me... Almost nothing that I know of in the whole piano literature reaches the same emotional depth as that second movement.
> I do prefer D 845 to D 958 though, I find it a more succesful work, and I know Schubert regarded it highly himself. I place it number 3 or 4 among the sonatas, after D 960, D 959 and PERHAPS D 894.


The Bb is truly a peak of piano literature, comparable with late Beethoven. D845 though, as you say, is also a very special work. I consider it his 2nd greatest sonata (which is saying a lot). It is probably his most enjoyable to play. The first movement really works itself up to a stupendous climax, and the slow movement is pure song (except when it breaks into a couple of highly agitated variations). Something in the slow movement recalls the feel of Mozart's piano sonata in the same key. The last two movements are not as grand as the first two, but not negligible. The scherzo is pure syncopation.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Eusebius12 said:


> The Bb is truly a peak of piano literature, comparable with late Beethoven. D845 though, as you say, is also a very special work. I consider it his 2nd greatest sonata (which is saying a lot). It is probably his most enjoyable to play. The first movement really works itself up to a stupendous climax, and the slow movement is pure song (except when it breaks into a couple of highly agitated variations). Something in the slow movement recalls the feel of Mozart's piano sonata in the same key. The last two movements are not as grand as the first two, but not negligible. The scherzo is pure syncopation.


It truly is. It makes me happy to see someone who sees the greatness of this work and gives it the recognition it deserves. Funny you mention the slow movements as recalling Mozars´s a minor sonata. I actually find many similarities between the finales of Mozart's K 310 and Schubert´s D 845.


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