# Beethoven's 9th Symphony



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm starting to think this might be my favorite symphony by Beethoven, and it is the only Symphony I have in my collection.

This implies it might be my favorite symphony of all time, nothing comes even close based on what I've listened to.

It's god the human element of drama (that was prominent for the Romantic era and lacking in the Classical/Baroque eras) but is matched with divine feelings during the popular melodic motif that is sung in the final movement.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Fine with me. It's not my absolute favorite, but on the symphonic spectrum, it rates pretty highly.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The umpteenth Beethoven 9 thread. There's only so many times I can tell how much I dislike it.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't think I've heard it since before the millennium. I can't remember if I like it or not.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I think it's the bee's knees.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tremendous work. Although my favourite Lud symphony is no 6


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

There's more to it than meets the eye at first listening. The transitional sections, which fly by quickly, are easy to overlook. Harmonically, it's very adventurous and forward-looking, with root movement by thirds. I'm sure that's why Art Rock doesn't like it; it's too modern-sounding for him.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Not one of my favorites, and it's grossly over-played. There are some orchestras that play it every year - some new tradition. It's importance in music is beyond dispute, but give it a rest! There's a lot of other great music to play. I've played it quite a few times and just dread it.

You say it's the only symphony you have in your collection? Just wait until you get to Mahler and Bruckner - that's inspirational music!


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Saying it's your favorite symphony of all time seems a bit broad if all you care about is Beethoven. I'll avoid mentioning my thoughts on Beethoven, but I don't think any symphonies come to mind as a piece I love in particular, except perhaps Turangalîla-Symphonie if that counts. I wouldn't recommend that here though, certainly.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> Saying it's your favorite symphony of all time seems a bit broad if all you care about is Beethoven. I'll avoid mentioning my thoughts on Beethoven, but I don't think any symphonies come to mind as a piece I love in particular, except perhaps Turangalîla-Symphonie if that counts. I wouldn't recommend that here though, certainly.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "broad" here, and no, I don't only care about Beethoven. It just happens to be a very engaging Symphony for me, it's all very magical. I also love his string quartet cycles and piano sonatas.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Fact: Beethoven's Ninth is recognized as one of the greatest artistic achievements of humanity. It's only when we get on the internet that things like this are questioned.

The internet lets people think they have individual importance, and that their opinion matters, even when it flies in the face of the entire history of Humanity. Also, people like to announce that they are atheists.

Why is it that some people don't like the Ninth? Is is because in Schiller's Ode to Joy, we find the words:

You millions, be embraced.
This kiss is for all the world!
Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Do you fall in worship, you millions?
World, do you know your creator?
Seek him in the heavens
Above the stars must He dwell.

That's an out-and-out profession of faith. No wonder it irks all the non-believers. "Brotherhood" and love for your fellow man seem to be too idealistic for all the cynics out there in internet land. 

Now they'll respond by saying that they helped a little old lady across the street.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Fact: Beethoven's Ninth is recognized as one of the greatest artistic achievements of humanity. It's only when we get on the internet that things like this are questioned.
> 
> The internet lets people think they have individual importance, and that their opinion matters, even when it flies in the face of the entire history of Humanity. Also, people like to announce that they are atheists.


I consider myself agnostic, and I have nothing wrong with unpopular opinions, all I care about is helping ppl find and express genuine opinions.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Fact: Beethoven's Ninth is recognized as one of the greatest artistic achievements of humanity. It's only when we get on the internet that things like this are questioned.
> 
> The internet lets people think they have individual importance, and that their opinion matters, even when it flies in the face of the entire history of Humanity. Also, people like to announce that they are atheists.
> 
> ...


You've got to be joking. If someone likes the piece, that's their opinion, regardless of whether most people the same way. If someone dislikes it, that's their opinion. They're not "questioning" anything. If the whole world except me loved the piece, that wouldn't change my opinion of it. The popular opinion shouldn't dictate anyone's personal opinions and ideas.

How would the internet make someone feel important? The opposite seems more likely. I'm sure that someone living in a small town before the internet felt more important than someone using the internet, acutely aware that they're one of billions on the earth.

Who's announcing they're an atheist? It seems that you like to announce that you're religious. That's entirely irrelevant to this thread. I'm sure there are plenty of religious and non-religious people who enjoy the piece, and most of them are probably unaware of the piece's religious themes. That is certainly not the reason I dislike it. I like most religious music that I've heard.

If you're so confident in following the popular opinion, why bother or worry about we few silly people who are "wrong"? It's definitely not the most popular opinion anymore, either. It's well-known, but go around and ask people if Beethoven's 9th is one of their favorite pieces of music and see what kind of answers you get.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I just turned on Berstein's rendition of this, I love it very much.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

There are parts of the 9th that I like very much. But the work could do with a bit of careful pruning, certainly for length, though I would definitely not be the person to explain how. It could be refashioned into something quite as good--maybe better--than the Eroica. I'd keep the Schiller ode--it was Schiller who said "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergebens.". He deserves immortality for that alone.

This post submitted by a rationalist and freethinker.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I certainly have a lot respect for this symphony both for its structure and for the idea it symbolizes. But I wouldn't say it is one of my favourite symphonies or even one of my favourite B. symphonies. I have two reasons for it; I have grown a nasty dislike for the choral movement for some years and I consider the work too bombastic and less individualistic which makes the work harder to connect with. I'm under an impression of this work resembling a pompous, condescending, highbrowed French Renaissance prince acting with a sanctimonious manner. Of course such an incarnation wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing because such a person would be a powerful and influential figure but certainly he wouldn't be the most sympathetic guy in all France...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Highwayman said:


> I certainly have a lot respect for this symphony both for its structure and for the idea it symbolizes. But I wouldn't say it is one of my favourite symphonies or even one of my favourite B. symphonies. I have two reasons for it; I have grown a nasty dislike for the choral movement for some years and I consider the work too bombastic and less individualistic which makes the work harder to connect with. I'm under an impression of this work resembling a pompous, condescending, highbrowed French Renaissance prince acting with a sanctimonious manner. Of course such an incarnation wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing because such a person would be a powerful and influential figure but certainly he wouldn't be the most sympathetic guy in all France...


All the associations we have with Art certainly do have significant impact in how we view it. I try my very hardest to avoid such things, but it's impossible. Having association is at the very heart of what subjective taste is.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I went nuts over Beethoven's Ninth, listened to it incessantly, amassed a collection of some 50 CDs of it, then discovered other music and moved on. Still love the Ninth, but burned out on it and rarely listen to it anymore.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I went nuts over Beethoven's Ninth, listened to it incessantly, amassed a collection of some 50 CDs of it, then discovered other music and moved on. Still love the Ninth, but burned out on it and rarely listen to it anymore.


Burn out is a very real thing. That's the worst part about mainstream Radio.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> There are parts of the 9th that I like very much. But the work could do with a bit of careful pruning, certainly for length, though I would definitely not be the person to explain how. It could be refashioned into something quite as good--maybe better--than the Eroica. I'd keep the Schiller ode--it was Schiller who said "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergebens.". He deserves immortality for that alone.
> 
> This post submitted by a rationalist and freethinker.


I agree with you that it could do with some pruning. Who knows, maybe Beethoven himself on reflection might think the same? Even so, I think the piece is pretty magnificent - especially the first movement - a soulful, impassioned expression of human struggle and suffering.

I find the finale troublesome but the choral tutti climax is great imho.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Fact: Beethoven's Ninth is recognized as one of the greatest artistic achievements of humanity. It's only when we get on the internet that things like this are questioned.
> 
> The internet lets people think they have individual importance, and that their opinion matters, even when it flies in the face of the entire history of Humanity. Also, people like to announce that they are atheists.
> 
> ...


What could possibly be wrong with anyone expressing their atheism?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> What could possibly be wrong about anyone expressing their atheism?


There's nothing wrong with it, if it doesn't try to make fools out of people of faith, and there's a long list of them as composers, such as Bach (devoted Lutherian), Mozart (also a Mason), and Beethoven (staunch Catholic). There's nothing wrong with it at all... but for god sake, show some capacity for ecstasy and bliss and not just for glorifying the human intellect. The human intellect created the Atom bomb.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> but for god sake, show some capacity for ecstasy and bliss and not just for glorifying the human intellect.


If one is a materialist then what's the issue?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> There's nothing wrong with it, if it doesn't try to make fools out of people of faith, and there's a long list of them as composers, such as Bach (devoted Lutherian), Mozart (also a Mason), and Beethoven (staunch Catholic). There's nothing wrong with it at all... but for god sake, show some capacity for ecstasy and bliss and not just for glorifying the human intellect. The human intellect created the Atom bomb.


No one is trying to make fools out of people except for one person trying to make fools out of atheists.

Also, ecstasy and bliss are not only experienced by religious people, you know? Though religious people may feel some kind of placebo effect from believing that a deity had some input on creating the art/music. Feeling something you can't explain from art isn't proof or a suggestion of the existence of god. It just means it's good art. I can usually explain the way any music makes me feel. I could literally be unable to appreciate Beethoven because I don't believe in a god that exists who is punishing me, but no one can say one way or another.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> There's nothing wrong with it, if it doesn't try to make fools out of people of faith, and there's a long list of them as composers, such as Bach (devoted Lutherian), Mozart (also a Mason), and Beethoven (staunch Catholic). There's nothing wrong with it at all... but for god sake, show some capacity for ecstasy and bliss and not just for glorifying the human intellect. The human intellect created the Atom bomb.


My favorite ecstasy and bliss was Europe in 1349. Or maybe it was Indonesia December 26, 2004. Or maybe it was Bangladesh, November 12, 1970. Or maybe it was Santorini in 1632 BC.

So many choices!


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> The human intellect created the Atom bomb.


...and the idea of gods.

Thread duty. I love the Ninth, and Schiller's words do not put off this atheist. It's interesting to find out more about Schiller, who can hardly be described as anti-intellectual, or a devout theist. If you think his Ode to Joy is just about "God", you've misunderstood it.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> ...Beethoven (staunch Catholic)....


Beethoven was also a child of the enlightenment.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

janxharris said:


> Beethoven was also a child of the enlightenment.


Swafford's recent and very thick biography agrees, and goes into this in some detail.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Swafford's recent and very thick biography agrees, and goes into this in some detail.


Must read that when I get a chance. Maynard Solomon argues the same.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Beethoven was also a child of the enlightenment.


Good point, and his ideal of the Brotherhood of Man was not presented in a religious but secular context because he undoubtedly wanted to reach everybody regardless of their religious beliefs. Nevertheless, his _Missa Solemnis_ (Solemn Mass) was premiered only a mere three years before his death and that certainly could be viewed as an expression of his religious Catholic sentiments.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Swafford's recent and very thick biography agrees, and goes into this in some detail.


Yes but anyone suggesting that Beethoven was in any way what we would call atheist is just stupid and ignorant, whether that is Swafford or anyone else. He was also not a conventional Catholic by any means. He may have had a streak of deism in his makeup. Christian deism. Is that what Swafford says in 300 odd pages? At least she isn't Splifford, Ken Ham's monkey


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Beethoven's 9th is one of the great experiences of art and I hope it shall always remain thus


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

Eusebius12 said:


> Yes but anyone suggesting that Beethoven was in any way what we would call atheist is just stupid and ignorant, whether that is Swafford or anyone else. He was also not a conventional Catholic by any means. he may have had a streak of deism in his makeup. Christian deism. Is that what Swafford says in 300 odd pages? At least she isn't Splifford, Ken Ham's monkey


I don't think any member here is claiming either Schiller or Beethoven are atheists.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> I don't think any member here is claiming either Schiller or Beethoven are atheists.


It has been known though. I just raise this because in some minds, The Enlightenment=atheism, that is far too simplistic. Especially in musical terms. The most freethinking composer of the period might have been Rameau, but he was hardly Voltaire in his deism, let alone an agnostic 'deist'.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Fredx2098 said:


> You've got to be joking. If someone likes the piece, that's their opinion, regardless of whether most people the same way. If someone dislikes it, that's their opinion. They're not "questioning" anything. If the whole world except me loved the piece, that wouldn't change my opinion of it. The popular opinion shouldn't dictate anyone's personal opinions and ideas.


I don't question your right to an opinion; I'm simply pointing out "the elephant in the room," which is that many listeners, in the past, on this forum, have expressed their dislike of the Ninth, particularly the ending choral movement, and I'm saying the reason why they don't like it is a reflection of their belief system, or non-belief system.



Fredx2098 said:


> How would the internet make someone feel important? The opposite seems more likely. I'm sure that someone living in a small town before the internet felt more important than someone using the internet, acutely aware that they're one of billions on the earth.


Then why is it that I've heard people argue with experts on the accepted facts? They act as if their opinion is the ultimate authority.



Fredx2098 said:


> Who's announcing they're an atheist?


 They're more subtle than that, usually.



Fredx2098 said:


> It seems that you like to announce that you're religious.


No, I never said I was religious in the traditional sense; only that I "believe" that Man has an innate spirituality, manifest in his sacred being, which preceded all organized religions.



Fredx2098 said:


> ...That's entirely irrelevant to this thread. I'm sure there are plenty of religious and non-religious people who enjoy the piece, and most of them are probably unaware of the piece's religious themes. That is certainly not the reason I dislike it. I like most religious music that I've heard.


In light of Beethoven's use of Schiller's Ode to Joy, and use of a chorus, I think the matter of religion in the Ninth is very relevant.



Fredx2098 said:


> If you're so confident in following the popular opinion, why bother or worry about we few silly people who are "wrong"? It's definitely not the most popular opinion anymore, either. It's well-known, but go around and ask people if Beethoven's 9th is one of their favorite pieces of music and see what kind of answers you get.


_Are you questioning the fact that Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is one of the greatest artistic achievements of Mankind?_


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

janxharris said:


> What could possibly be wrong with anyone expressing their atheism?


It's not wrong, but I think it's ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict; and is ultimately a meaningless term for a "non-philosophy."


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I'm glad millionrainbows can't be referring to me. I've already stated that I like the 9th, though with some editing it could have been better. I'm on record as wishing to retain the Ode. I so don't want to be anywhere within range when millionrainbows periodically discharges his blunderbuss against those who might like the 9th in some unapproved way, or not like it at all (definitely unapproved!).


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't question your right to an opinion; I'm simply pointing out "the elephant in the room," which is that many listeners, in the past, on this forum, have expressed their dislike of the Ninth, particularly the ending choral movement, and I'm saying the reason why they don't like it is a reflection of their belief system, or non-belief system.


The ninth is among my least favorite Beethoven, and it has nothing to do with my _belief system_. I was initially attracted to it, largely because I had some interest in the text. But eventually it began to grate on me because I like instrumental music and don't welcome the intrusion of a chorus in a symphony.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

janxharris said:


> If one is a materialist then what's the issue?


Okay, cut in to your skull; you will see that there is no soul in there.

The fact is, even simple human experience is unprovable. You can't prove to me that you exist.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't question your right to an opinion; I'm simply pointing out "the elephant in the room," which is that many listeners, in the past, on this forum, have expressed their dislike of the Ninth, particularly the ending choral movement, and I'm saying the reason why they don't like it is a reflection of their belief system, or non-belief system.


I don't think the dislike has anything to do with belief systems. You always get hung-up on religion and beliefs.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> It's not wrong, but I think it's ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict; and is ultimately a meaningless term for a "non-philosophy."


Is it morally not wrong? Or just legally not wrong? I agree that atheism is not a philosophy, just like disinterest in astrology is not a philosophy, just exercise of our ability for rational thought.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Fredx2098 said:


> No one is trying to make fools out of people except for one person trying to make fools out of atheists.


Then why don't you report this to the Anti-Defamation League of Atheists?


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> It's not wrong, but I think it's ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict; and is ultimately a meaningless term for a "non-philosophy."


It is not a meaningless term. It means a person believes that there is no supernatural being that is responsible for the universe.

If anything is "ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict" it is telling people who consider themselves atheists that their attitude is somehow invalid.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> Good point, and his ideal of the Brotherhood of Man was not presented in a religious but secular context because he undoubtedly wanted to reach everybody regardless of their religious beliefs. Nevertheless, his _Missa Solemnis_ (Solemn Mass) was premiered only a mere three years before his death and that certainly could be viewed as an expression of his religious Catholic sentiments.


So, Beethoven, like me, felt that Man's innate spiritual nature preceded and transcended organized religion.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Eusebius12 said:


> Yes but anyone suggesting that Beethoven was in any way what we would call atheist is just stupid and ignorant, whether that is Swafford or anyone else. He was also not a conventional Catholic by any means. He may have had a streak of deism in his makeup. Christian deism. Is that what Swafford says in 300 odd pages? At least she isn't Splifford, Ken Ham's monkey


Yes, I think Beethoven was a spiritually aware man, and did not need religion to express the love within. This certainly doesn't make him an "atheist," whatever that means.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Eusebius12 said:


> It has been known though. I just raise this because in some minds, The Enlightenment=atheism, that is far too simplistic. Especially in musical terms. The most freethinking composer of the period might have been Rameau, but he was hardly Voltaire in his deism, let alone an agnostic 'deist'.


Yes, it seems like The Enlightenment is something that atheists use to hide behind. Let us not confuse the two.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I don't think the dislike has anything to do with belief systems. You always get hung-up on religion and beliefs.


I _do_ think a lot of the dislike of the Ninth, esp. the choral finale, is an unspoken expression of anti-religious sentiment.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> I _do_ think a lot of the dislike of the Ninth, esp. the choral finale, is an unspoken expression of anti-religious sentiment.


And somehow you know why people dislike the ninth?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Baron Scarpia said:


> ...it is not a meaningless term. It means a person believes that there is no supernatural being that is responsible for the universe.


What about infants? They would have to be called "implicit atheists," because they are not able to articulate an explicit rejection of a deity.



Baron Scarpia said:


> ...If anything is "ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict" it is telling people who consider themselves atheists that their attitude is somehow invalid.


Well, isn't that what atheists are doing? Telling people that they think all deistic belief is invalid?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Baron Scarpia said:


> And somehow you know why people dislike the ninth?


Why else would they dislike, specifically, the choral finale of the Ninth? I think it's painfully obvious, especially on the internet, where these things seem to congeal.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Well I'm an atheist and I love the Ninth, and find the Ode to Joy incredibly moving...so _there_! :lol:


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> It's not wrong, but I think it's ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict; and is ultimately a meaningless term for a "non-philosophy."


Well it would depend on the context I guess. You seem quite vehement; I'm a little puzzled as to why.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Why else would they dislike, specifically, the choral finale of the Ninth? I think it's painfully obvious, especially on the internet, where these things seem to congeal.


You think everyone _has_ to like the ninth finale unless they have anti-religious sentiment. Really, that strikes me as one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Okay, cut in to your skull; you will see that there is no soul in there.
> 
> The fact is, even simple human experience is unprovable. You can't prove to me that you exist.


I have no idea where you are going with this millionrainbows.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't question your right to an opinion; I'm simply pointing out "the elephant in the room," which is that many listeners, in the past, on this forum, have expressed their dislike of the Ninth, particularly the ending choral movement, and I'm saying the reason why they don't like it is a reflection of their belief system, or non-belief system.
> 
> I never said I was religious in the traditional sense; only that I "believe" that Man has an innate spirituality, manifest in his sacred being, which preceded all organized religions.


Your tiresome infatuation with your own "spirituality" and your equally tiresome obsession with denigrating "atheists" seem to have led you to overlook the fact that some people simply don't find the finale of the 9th musically successful.

I do find it successful, for both musical and "spiritual" reasons.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Baron Scarpia said:


> You think everyone _has_ to like the ninth finale unless they have anti-religious sentiment. Really, that strikes me as one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet.


No, that's not what I think; that would be ridiculous, as you said. I'm just pointing out that anti-religious sentiment is behind a lot of the dislike of the Ninth, which invariably focusses on the choral finale.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Your tiresome infatuation with your own "spirituality" and your equally tiresome obsession with denigrating "atheists" seem to have led you to overlook the fact that some people simply don't find the finale of the 9th musically successful. I do find it successful, for both musical and "spiritual" reasons.


I don't believe that I have denigrated atheists; I've simply said that the term itself is meaningless, because of the wide range of possible adherents it tries to cover, as well as its meaningless function as a "viral" term, which, like a virus, depends on a "host" in order to have its own "half-life" as a pseudo-entity. Atheism is a pseudo-philosophy which cannot define itself except in terms of denying belief systems which it opposes.

I'm not denying that there are valid opinions to dislike the Ninth; but _funny_ that the Ninth is always the symphony that is questioned, and _always_ the choral finale!


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> No, that's not what I think; that would be ridiculous, as you said. I'm just pointing out that anti-religious sentiment is behind a lot of the dislike of the Ninth, which invariably focusses on the choral finale.


Did it ever occur to you that if people don't like the choral finale it is because it is the only movement from a Beethoven symphony that has a _chorus_?


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> It's not wrong, but I think it's ridiculous, pompous, arrogant, and causes conflict; and is ultimately a meaningless term for a "non-philosophy."


And this is not "denigrating" atheism? My dear chap, please refrain from your incessant non-denigrating or I will feel compelled to not report your posts for off-topic posting. Thank you.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

In millionrainbow's world, "I think" means much more than "It has been shown...". One must like the 9th, or dislike it in only a certain way, or else one not only is--but must be--an atheist. It's quite simple, really.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't believe that I have denigrated atheists; I've simply said that the term itself is meaningless, because of the wide range of possible adherents it tries to cover, as well as its meaningless function as a "viral" term, which, like a virus, depends on a "host" in order to have its own "half-life" as a pseudo-entity. Atheism is a pseudo-philosophy which cannot define itself except in terms of denying belief systems which it opposes.
> 
> I'm not denying that there are valid opinions to dislike the Ninth; but _funny_ that the Ninth is always the symphony that is questioned, and _always_ the choral finale!


Not funny at all. It's a damned weird (and wonderful) piece of music, like a lot of late Beethoven. I think it's wrong to generalize about who "gets" it and who doesn't. Spare us the woo-woo.

You're being disingenuous about your years-long preoccupation with atheism and the ridiculous - and yes, denigrating - things you've said about people who may have little in common besides the simple fact of being non-theistic. The term is not meaningless and it isn't a philosophy, pseudo or otherwise. You want to make it one, find it defective as such, and go off on rants about what "spiritual" things atheists supposedly don't understand. I've drawn the ignorance and offensiveness of this to your attention, but your continued harping on it in thread after thread is apparently ego-reinforcing for you.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Then why is it that I've heard people argue with experts on the accepted facts?
> 
> _Are you questioning the fact that Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is one of the greatest artistic achievements of Mankind?_


I guess I'm questioning the accepted ""facts"". I just don't hear it. It's just fine if others like it though. I have no interest in what "experts" have to say when I'm forming an opinion of art. I certainly agree with the actual fact that it's a well-known piece, but that doesn't mean anything to me.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

This thread concerns Beethoven's 9th symphony. It is not about atheism, and it is absolutely not about atheism unconnected to Beethoven's 9th. Please refrain from further discussion of atheism.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, I think Beethoven was a spiritually aware man, and did not need religion to express the love within. This certainly doesn't make him an "atheist," whatever that means.


He was also conventionally religious as well as being unconventionally spiritual though. Anyone who prays to God must be.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

According to Swafford's recent biography, Beethoven (as is well known) was interested in Far Eastern religions, Hinduism, and Egyptian mystery cults around the time he was 45. These interests were quite common then. But starting just short of his 50th year, he seemed to move toward a more traditional and orthodox Catholicism, possibly having to do with his concern for the "moral" aspects of his nephew's education. Or perhaps it was due to his theological and musicological research during his early work on the Missa Solemnis. Or maybe he was just getting older.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

The 9th is a titanic work, that goes beyond music into universal art and deep ontological sensation. It isn't that I (and others) merely 'like' it. I like going for walks. The 9th is an immersive experience that means a great deal to those who respond to it. For those who don't, well I empathize.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Eusebius12 said:


> The 9th is a titanic work, that goes beyond music into universal art and deep ontological sensation. It isn't that I (and others) merely 'like' it. I like going for walks. The 9th is an immersive experience that means a great deal to those who respond to it. For those who don't, well I empathize.


Good way to put it, I find that sensation with all the music, and Art, I love!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I remember somebody saying that it was impossible to evaluate the 9th aside from its reputation. A performance was not a concert at all but a public event.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm starting to think this might be my favorite symphony by Beethoven, and it is the only Symphony I have in my collection.
> 
> This implies it might be my favorite symphony of all time, nothing comes even close based on what I've listened to.
> 
> It's *god *the human element of drama (that was prominent for the Romantic era and lacking in the Classical/Baroque eras) but is matched with divine feelings during the popular melodic motif that is sung in the final movement.


Perhaps if the glaring typo in the OP could be fixed, the discussion wouldn't keep sticking on an inappropriate subject! 

The 'popular melodic motif' is what first attracted me to the symphony. I can remember being surprised that it wasn't the ode that concluded the work, but a further rambling chorale with that utterly absurd gallop to the end. Whilst I now understand why, and have come to love the symphony overall, it's the ode chorus that gives me chills - I tolerate the rest of the singing rather than enjoy it.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Eusebius12 said:


> The 9th is a titanic work, that goes beyond music into universal art and deep ontological sensation. It isn't that I (and others) merely 'like' it. I like going for walks. The 9th is an immersive experience that means a great deal to those who respond to it. For those who don't, well I empathize.


That's how I feel about Feldman's works. Not everyone always feels the same way though.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Thank god the atheism argument has stopped. :devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Eusebius12 said:


> He was also conventionally religious as well as being unconventionally spiritual though. Anyone who prays to God must be.


When Beethoven had his picture painted with the score of the Missa Solemnis in his hand, he was asked which movement he wanted painting in. He replied 'Credo'!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Every one of Beethoven's symphonies is a unique experience. I don't think there is any other composer who did so many different things with the form and he did it while always being distinctively Beethoven. It is understandable if people have favourites among them but if you relegate any to a significant degree you are missing out on a part of what Beethoven was. The 9th is especially unique so it is hardly surprising that views for and against are extreme. 

But the trouble with Beethoven's symphonies is that most of them are, for us, iconic. And this can make it hard to hear the music instead of the reputation, the position the work has in our cultural identity. This also will tend to lead to strong views for and against. And, again, the 9th is by far the most iconic of Beethoven's symphonies so views on it will be more extreme. There is no need to invoke or to guess at listeners' beliefs or spirituality to explain either extreme.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Perhaps if the glaring typo in the OP could be fixed, the discussion wouldn't keep sticking on an inappropriate subject!
> 
> The 'popular melodic motif' is what first attracted me to the symphony. I can remember being surprised that it wasn't the ode that concluded the work, but a further rambling chorale with that utterly absurd gallop to the end. Whilst I now understand why, and have come to love the symphony overall, it's the ode chorus that gives me chills - I tolerate the rest of the singing rather than enjoy it.


"It's god" sums up the ninth quite well! :lol:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> "It's god" sums up the ninth quite well! :lol:


I get a much more humane message from it. God was a bit of a despot.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Beethoven's 9th is like a form from Plato. It's great, but I can't access it... not anymore at least. Much of its brilliance is expressed in the works that take their cue from it. Not a big fan of the slow movement at all, too. I'm at a point now where I'd much rather sit down with the 2nd, 4th or 7th.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Fact: Beethoven's Ninth is recognized as one of the greatest artistic achievements of humanity. It's only when we get on the internet that things like this are questioned.
> 
> The internet lets people think they have individual importance, and that their opinion matters, even when it flies in the face of the entire history of Humanity. Also, people like to announce that they are atheists.
> 
> ...


It seems someone's struck a nerve, but I can't find it anywhere in the thread. Is this what comes out when you electrically stimulate the brain of a dogmatist?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Why is it that some people don't like the Ninth? Is is because in Schiller's Ode to Joy, we find the words:
> 
> You millions, be embraced.
> This kiss is for all the world!
> ...


Is that why the Ode to Joy has been used as a kind of anthem for places and periods as diverse as Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, and that bastion of cold, materialist bureaucracy the *EU*? It's just an empty vessel for whoever takes it up, so don't flatter it too much. The verse is just bad, as well.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> This thread concerns Beethoven's 9th symphony. It is not about atheism


Sorry, sir, but the manifest content of the thread seems to indicate otherwise.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Beethoven was "new age" way before his time, as KenOC pointed out; he was a Mason, was interested in Eastern religion, and felt "at one with everything," apparently, when he wrote the Ninth.
He was just oozing with "new age love and spirituality" and expressing brotherhood and love for all of Humanity: maybe that's why some people don't like it.

It's hard to talk about this symphony without mentioning something about religion, have you noticed?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Tallisman said:


> Is that why the Ode to Joy has been used as a kind of anthem for places and periods as diverse as Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, and that bastion of cold, materialist bureaucracy the *EU*? It's just an empty vessel for whoever takes it up, so don't flatter it too much. The verse is just bad, as well.


So, Beethoven was just a puppet of The State. Bad poetry goes with bad music, right?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Beethoven's Ninth: The Movie


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> It's hard to talk about this symphony without mentioning something about religion, have you noticed?


Your statement should more accurately read:



> It's hard *for me* to talk about this symphony--or anything, really--without mentioning something about religion, have you noticed?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> It's hard to talk about this symphony without mentioning something about religion, have you noticed?


Not at all. I have discussed it at length over the years and this thread is my first exposure to the idea that religion is the key to - or even an important aspect of - it. To me it is an intrusion.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Not at all. I have discussed it at length over the years and this thread is my first exposure to the idea that religion is the key to - or even an important aspect of - it. To me it is an intrusion.


The words Beethoven chose explicitly make the ninth religious. That isn't an intrusion.

Oh friends, not these sounds!
Let us instead strike up more pleasing
and more joyful ones!

Joy!
Joy!
Joy, beautiful spark of divinity,
Daughter from Elysium,
We enter, burning with fervour,
heavenly being, your sanctuary!
Your magic brings together
what custom has sternly divided.
All men shall become brothers,
wherever your gentle wings hover.

Whoever has been lucky enough
to become a friend to a friend,
Whoever has found a beloved wife,
let him join our songs of praise!
Yes, and anyone who can call one soul
his own on this earth!
Any who cannot, let them slink away
from this gathering in tears!

Every creature drinks in joy
at nature's breast;
Good and Evil alike
follow her trail of roses.
She gives us kisses and wine,
a true friend, even in death;
Even the worm was given desire,
and the cherub stands before God.

Gladly, just as His suns hurtle
through the glorious universe,
So you, brothers, should run your course,
joyfully, like a conquering hero.

Be embraced, you millions!
This kiss is for the whole world!
Brothers, above the canopy of stars
must dwell a loving father.

Do you bow down before Him, you millions?
Do you sense your Creator, O world?
Seek Him above the canopy of stars!
He must dwell beyond the stars.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> So, Beethoven was just a puppet of The State. Bad poetry goes with bad music, right?


No, in this case, bad poetry went with great music. Beethoven ennobled Schiller's worst excesses into something much greater.

Also, I object to you equating Romanticism/curiosity about the beauty of the world with some positive belief in the spirit-world. I also find esotericism and aspects of Eastern thought very interesting, but I maintain a certain distance from expressing absolute belief in its most literal aspects.

One can recognise the beauty, profundity and nobility etc of the world and the human experience without then jumping to sincere belief in some immaterial (and yet somehow an object of positive knowledge?) 'res spiritualis'.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> No, in this case, bad poetry went with great music. Beethoven ennobled Schiller's worst excesses into something much greater.
> 
> Also, I object to you equating Romanticism/curiosity about the beauty of the world with some positive belief in the spirit-world. I also find esotericism and aspects of Eastern thought very interesting, but I maintain a certain distance from expressing absolute belief in its most literal aspects.
> 
> One can recognise the beauty, profundity and nobility etc of the world and the human experience without then jumping to sincere belief in some immaterial (and yet somehow an object of positive knowledge?) 'res spiritualis'.


Indeed. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

Schiller, like countless artists before and since, found in certain religious images poetic and metaphoric expressions of human feeling on which religion has no monopoly. Did he believe in cherubs? Does it matter?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Indeed. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?
> 
> Schiller, like countless artists before and since, found in certain religious images poetic and metaphoric expressions of human feeling on which religion has no monopoly. Did he believe in cherubs? Does it matter?


Precisely. Millionrainbows and so many others like him take any art that on the surface implies religious/spiritual references as an actual, ontologically sincere expression of positive belief in its literal content. The whole point is that it is ambiguous, abstract, a process of _searching_. That distance is absolutely _constitutive_ of the romantic era, or at least of all intelligent Romantics (early Schiller and Beethoven included)


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Yes, one might suppose that Schiller, Beethoven and the would have been much better off holding up the ideal of the smugness and the superiority of man or some other negative ideal to please the critics and the guardians of reality. It's hardly a bad poem, one that Beethoven held dear for years upon years, and there are no excesses in it other than referencing something Higher in life as an inspiration, and Joy, in case that's of any interest to anyone, references that have been celebrated for centuries. For some, the ideal of the Brotherhood of Man is still something to aspire to, no matter how Homo sapiens continue to fall short. Schiller's poem was a genuine inspiration to Beethoven or he obviously wouldn't have included it in the symphony that inspired & influenced most of the 19th century.

https://www.schillerinstitute.org/transl/schiller_poem/ode_to_joy.pdf


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> Precisely. Millionrainbows and so many others like him take any art that on the surface implies religious/spiritual references as an actual, ontologically sincere expression of positive belief in its literal content. The whole point is that it is ambiguous, abstract, a process of _searching_. That distance is absolutely _constitutive_ of the romantic era, or at least of all intelligent Romantics (early Schiller and Beethoven included)


Are you suggesting Beethoven was insincere in citing Schiller with the words:

_Be embraced, you millions!
This kiss is for the whole world!
Brothers, above the canopy of stars
must dwell a loving father.

Do you bow down before Him, you millions?
Do you sense your Creator, O world?
Seek Him above the canopy of stars!
He must dwell beyond the stars._


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Are you suggesting Beethoven was insincere in citing Schiller with the words:
> 
> _Be embraced, you millions!
> This kiss is for the whole world!
> ...


Those words sound like someone searching for proof that God exists rather than an expression of faith.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Those words sound like someone searching for proof that God exists rather than an expression of faith.


I don't agree. You don't include _*Seek Him above the canopy of stars!*_ if you aren't sure such a 'Him' is there or not. Otherwise, we may say that Beethoven was insincere.

Why do you feel the need to resist the fact that Beethoven is expressing in this work (at least) his faith and that others should do likewise?

Is Beethoven's belief in the Christian God incompatible with your view of his genius?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

janxharris said:


> I don't agree. You don't include _*Seek Him above the canopy of stars!*_ if you aren't sure such a 'Him' is there or not. Otherwise, we may say that Beethoven was insincere.
> 
> Why do you feel the need to resist the fact that Beethoven is expressing in this work (at least) his faith and that others should do likewise?
> 
> Is Beethoven's belief in the Christian God incompatible with your view of his genius?


I'm sorry but the words (including those you requoted) sound very similar to my ear to the arguments that religious people started to use to "prove" the existence of God as atheism was rising. The language is quite different to earlier and more certain devotional material. There is a strong "surely ..": surely he dwells above the canopy of the stars? He must dwell there!

I barely have an interest (let alone a need) to resist the idea that Beethoven was expressing faith and conviction! No doubt he was. What I wish to resist is the idea that the 9th Symphony is in some way imbued with some sort of magical hocus pocus as a result of it. I am not even convinced (far from it, in fact) that Beethoven's faith and beliefs are in some way important to us in understanding the work. I think he was aiming at something more terrestrial.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm sorry but the words (including those you requoted) sound very similar to my ear to the arguments that religious people started to use to "prove" the existence of God as atheism was rising. The language is quite different to earlier and more certain devotional material. There is a strong "surely ..": surely he dwells above the canopy of the stars? He must dwell there!


Well, clearly, expressing words such as these proves nothing so I am a little confused by this.



> I barely have an interest (let alone a need) to resist the idea that Beethoven was expressing faith and conviction! No doubt he was.


Okay, I agree - he was at this point in his life.



> What I wish to resist is the idea that the 9th Symphony is in some way imbued with some sort of magical hocus pocus as a result of it.


Not sure anyone is are they?



> I am not even convinced (far from it, in fact) that Beethoven's faith and beliefs are in some way important to us in understanding the work. I think he was aiming at something more terrestrial.


The text is explicit:

Your magic brings together
what custom has sternly divided.
All men shall become brothers,
wherever your gentle wings hover.

Beethoven is explicitly appealing to faith in God in order to end humanity's division.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm with Enthusiast on this one. Try reading the Schiller and researching the meaning of the poem and Schiller' s beliefs (which I was suggesting folk did before the atheism interlude).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

janxharris said:


> I don't agree. You don't include _*Seek Him above the canopy of stars!*_ if you aren't sure such a 'Him' is there or not. Otherwise, we may say that Beethoven was insincere.
> 
> Why do you feel the need to resist the fact that Beethoven is expressing in this work (at least) his faith and that others should do likewise?


Sure that a _what_ is _where?_

Do you really think that Schiller is referring to a supernatural being who lives in outer space, and is urging people to go there and check him out? What is "God" to Schiller, and what is the "canopy of stars," and how do we seek and find this "Him"?

This is poetry, not theology.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm pretty sure this is meant to be a religious work, that's how I've always seen it. I'm not religious, but still love it!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> I'm with Enthusiast on this one. Try reading the Schiller and researching the meaning of the poem and Schiller' s beliefs (which I was suggesting folk did before the atheism interlude).


Not sure we need do that. Beethoven chose these words (with some modification of the original) and they are pretty explicit.

Why is this even up for debate? At the time of composition (ie 1824) Beethoven was calling on humanity to faith in God in order to end man's divisions. He was not appealing to humanity to heal themselves.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Sure that a _what_ is _where?_
> 
> Do you really think that Schiller is referring a supernatural being who lives in outer space, and is urging people to go there and check him out? What is "God" to Schiller, and what is the "canopy of stars," and how do we seek and find this "Him"?
> 
> This is poetry, not theology.


It is obviously theology - Beethoven was raised as a Catholic. What else can _Father, worship, creator and Heavens_ refer to? If your right then we may charge Beethoven with being disingenuous.

You millions, be embraced.
This kiss is for all the world!
Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Do you fall in worship, you millions?
World, do you know your creator?
Seek him in the heavens
Above the stars must He dwell.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

janxharris said:


> It is obviously theology - Beethoven was raised as a Catholic. What else can _Father, worship, creator and Heavens_ refer to? If your right then we may charge Beethoven with being disingenuous.
> 
> You millions, be embraced.
> This kiss is for all the world!
> ...


Ya, he's being quite explicit.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

janxharris said:


> It is obviously theology - Beethoven was raised as a Catholic. What else can _Father, worship, creator and Heavens_ refer to? If your right then we may charge Beethoven with being disingenuous.
> 
> You millions, be embraced.
> This kiss is for all the world!
> ...


So if a composer sets a text that contains religious imagery and doesn't personally subscribe to the conventional theological interpretation of every word of it, he's hypocritical?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> So if a composer sets a text that contains religious imagery and doesn't personally subscribe to the conventional theological interpretation of every word of it, he's hypocritical?


I'm fine with having a personal interpretation, and even acknowledging that perhaps Beethoven didn't even interpret it as being fully religious, but to state there are no religious references in the work is a bit silly, I think, it obviously has them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm fine with having a personal interpretation, and even acknowledging that perhaps Beethoven didn't even interpret it as being fully religious, but *to state there are no religious references in the work is a bit silly*, I think, it obviously has them.


But no one has said that. We just can't presume to know what Schiller or Beethoven meant by them, absent some explanation from the gentlemen themselves.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> This is poetry, not theology.


I believe it's poetry expressing a theological idea. I don't believe they are mutually exclusive in this example.

Let me take issue with Millionrainbows on his first post in this thread. I don't disagree that "some" people may have an issue with the religiosity/theological expression apparent in the Ode of the 9th. But I would argue (not provable of course) that many people's dislike of the 9th has more to do with the popularity of the piece.

There is a cynicism in many people that compels them to resist anything that is or becomes popular or mainstream. I know and have met many people with this trait. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I know it's there. I am friends with a man who loved the band U2 until Joshua Tree came out. He "can't stand" them anymore. Reason: They "Sold out" and "became too mainstream." He feels the same way about Peter Gabriel and many others, just to give one example (I'm still a fan of both).

Another example is a thread a few years back here in TC were I professed my admiration for the movie "Saving Private Ryan." Many came down on me and offered another WWII movie to check out which wasn't nearly as popular or budgeted. I did, and it was good. But to me, it wasn't as good with the power, production, and story of SPR. They even spoke about how SPR was too big budget and too Hollywood (not sure those were their exact words, but it was certainly their spirit).

So, that's my 2 cents on why many (of course not all) people do not like B's 9th. At least I think it has more to do with that than any anti-religiosity/theology reasons. I know plenty of atheists and agnostics who love sacred music.

V


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

And FWIW, I still love the 9th. Is it overplayed? Yes, probably, and I understand that can cause burnout. So I try to limit my exposure to the piece because I want to enjoy such a magnificent work of art for the rest of my days.

V


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> But no one has said that. We just can't presume to know what Schiller or Beethoven meant by them, absent some explanation from the gentlemen themselves.


I think it's safe to say they meant something theological, it's too obvious and explicit to avoid that, but we can't know _exactly_ how they interpreted it on a personal level.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Varick said:


> And FWIW, I still love the 9th. Is it overplayed? Yes, probably, and I understand that can cause burnout. So I try to limit my exposure to the piece because I want to enjoy such a magnificent work of art for the rest of my days.
> 
> V


Yep. Remember the Blockbuster, movie rental chain, commercial that utilized the main motif in this piece? "Movies Movies Movies Movies" :lol: I think that was my first exposure to this work as a young child.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Why is it that some people don't like the Ninth? Is is because in Schiller's Ode to Joy, we find the words:
> 
> You millions, be embraced.
> This kiss is for all the world!
> ...


From Post 11. I went back and reviewed this entire thread. The above is only one of several places where a well-known passenger--not the original engineer--sent the thread-train off the tracks by again instituting his now-patented diatribe against non-believers. In another post, we are told that one must love the 9th whole-heartedly, but especially the Ode, as there are none but dishonorable grounds for not caring for it. Believers, have a care that if you also do not particularly like the Ode, you had better keep that news to yourself. Others are invited to go back over the thread themselves and find the several other instances. But there is definitely not a "hidden" agenda--it's there with bells on, for all to see.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> From Post 11. I went back and reviewed this entire thread. The above is only one of several places where a well-known passenger--not the original engineer--sent the thread-train off the tracks by again instituting his now-patented diatribe against non-believers. In another post, we are told that one must love the 9th whole-heartedly, but especially the Ode, as there are none but dishonorable grounds for not caring for it. Believers, have a care that if you also do not particularly care for the Ode, you had better keep that news to yourself. Others are invited to go back over the thread themselves and find the several other instances. But there is definitely not a "hidden" agenda--it's there with bells on, for all to see.


Ya, there is no such thing has "MUST ENJOY" in my world, at least. Art and taste of it is 100% subjective. What I love about the ninth so much is how it feels like one of the most expressive works Beethoven ever noted throughout all the movements; it's at least his most expressive symphony IMO, it speaks to me the most.

It also has a certain level of being abstract; it's probably his least straightforward symphony and that appeals to me.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Reading back, it was post #11 that initiated all the talk about religion in the 9th symphony and started taking jabs at some other TC members. That was unfortunate, because it tilted the discussion from being one of a work of music to a work of religious belief.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Not sure we need do that. Beethoven chose these words (with some modification of the original) and they are pretty explicit.
> 
> Why is this even up for debate? At the time of composition (ie 1824) Beethoven was calling on humanity to faith in God in order to end man's divisions. He was not appealing to humanity to heal themselves.
> 
> Is it the case that atheists find it incomprehensible and uncomfortable to even consider that a musical genius could stoop to this?


I'm _quite _sure we need to do that.

[Edited]The words are "explicit", but the meaning of the sentences are not; and they are not Beethoven's; we must assume that in choosing them, he was interpreting them in some way that may or may not have been what Schiller intended. The words actually pose a number of questions; they are not emphatic statements of faith. For example:



> Brothers, above the starry canopy
> There must dwell a loving Father.


There is more than one way to read this statement. It seems reasonable to me that we make some effort to consider its meaning. To do so does not entail dismissing the obvious religious content, but it does offer a chance to consider what Beethoven's beliefs were.

[Your last question is a needless swipe. Please withdraw.]


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> I'm _quite _sure we need to do that. The words are not "explicit" and they are not Beethoven's; we must assume that in choosing them, he was interpreting them in some way that may or may not have been what Schiller intended. The words actually pose a number of questions; they are not emphatic statements of faith. It seems reasonable to me that we make some effort to consider their meaning. To do so does not entail dismissing the obvious religious content, but it does offer a chance to consider what Beethoven's beliefs were.
> 
> [Your last question is a needless swipe. Please withdraw.]


Divine, heaven, father in the sky? That's pretty explicitly religious.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Varick said:


> I believe it's poetry expressing a theological idea. I don't believe they are mutually exclusive in this example.


No, certainly not. But we need to be careful in thinking we know what the theological idea is, and in drawing conclusions about Schiller's theology. The poem begins with the line, _Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium_ ("Joy, beautiful spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium"). This is a reference to Greek mythology. Isn't that a theological idea too? Is Schiller identifying the Greek gods and the afterlife of heroes with the Christian God and heaven? What are his personal beliefs about either? Does it matter?


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Divine, heaven, father in the sky? That's pretty explicitly religious.


You're right - I've edited the post to more accurately reflect what I mean.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> [Your last question is a needless swipe. Please withdraw.]


It isn't a swipe. I was wondering if it were true.

In respect, I have removed it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

janxharris said:


> It isn't a swipe. I was wondering if it were true.
> 
> In respect, I have removed it.


And it was a very plausible assertion/question.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

janxharris said:


> It isn't a swipe. I was wondering if it were true.
> 
> In respect, I have removed it.


Thank you .


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> You're right - I've edited the post to more accurately reflect what I mean.


I like and agree with your edit.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> I'd keep the Schiller ode--it was Schiller who said "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.". He deserves immortality for that alone.


Woodduck reminds us of Schiller's reference to "Daughter of Elysium" and other examples of his less-than-100% adherence to pure Christian purity of belief. We have in his above remark absolute proof that Schiller was a hardened polytheist! . My tongue is somewhat in my cheek, knowing something of the context in which the remark was made, but nevertheless it shows we need some care in the statements we make about what Beethoven (who only borrowed the Ode) meant by it, and what Schiller meant, as Woodduck asserts.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It has been said* that Schiller himself regarded the whole poem as a failure later in his life, going so far as to call it "detached from reality" and "of value maybe for us two, but not for the world, nor for the art of poetry" in an 1800 letter to his long-time friend and patron Christian Gottfried Körner (whose friendship had originally inspired him to write the ode).

* Wikipedia, reference therin has gone the way of the dodo unfortunately.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> No, certainly not. But we need to be careful in thinking we know what the theological idea is, and in drawing conclusions about Schiller's theology. The poem begins with the line, _Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium_ ("Joy, beautiful spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium"). This is a reference to Greek mythology. Isn't that a theological idea too? Is Schiller identifying the Greek gods and the afterlife of heroes with the Christian God and heaven? What are his personal beliefs about either? Does it matter?


Your point is well received (as usual), however, it may matter in this discussion. Given the knowledge of LVB's religious belief's, I don't think its a stretch to assume his theological idea in the Ode was Christian based. I'm an Ethical Monotheist who believes in the Judeo/Christian ethic. If I were to write a Christian poem and inserted a reference to Valhalla, I don't think it would be wise to disregard the fact that my poem was a "Christian" poem and argue for a Nordic meaning.

As for Schiller, I plead total ignorance albeit his augmented poem in LBV's 9th. I know nothing more about the man.

V


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Obviously the true meaning of the "Ode to Joy" _within Beethoven's 9th _ may be very hard to ascertain. Harvey Sachs views the work mostly as a "declaration in favor of universal Brotherhood." Beethoven modified a line in Ode to Joy from "What custom's sword divide , Beggars are a prince's brother" to "What did custom stern divide, Every man becomes a brother."

I really have no idea what Beethoven intended. I can see an Ode to brotherhood or something mostly religious. Personally, I never think of the words in the 4th movement. I only view the entire work as one of the most powerful pieces of music I've ever heard. I have often said it's my favorite work, and it would remain that way independent of the interpretation of the Ode.


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## HelpMeUnderstand (Aug 5, 2018)

Old Ludwig Van was taken from my brother i find myself in much strack now when i sloosh the 9th. OH the blub the boohoo i horn so loud now to old Ludwig Van.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> Obviously the true meaning of the "Ode to Joy" _within Beethoven's 9th _ may be very hard to ascertain. Harvey Sachs views the work mostly as a "declaration in favor of universal Brotherhood." Beethoven modified a line in Ode to Joy from "What custom's sword divide , Beggars are a prince's brother" to "What did custom stern divide, Every man becomes a brother."
> 
> I really have no idea what Beethoven intended. I can see an Ode to brotherhood or something mostly religious. Personally, I never think of the words in the 4th movement. I only view the entire work as one of the most powerful pieces of music I've ever heard. I have often said it's my favorite work, and it would remain that way independent of the interpretation of the Ode.


Good post, I agree with you 100%.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Varick said:


> But I would argue (not provable of course) that many people's dislike of the 9th has more to do with the popularity of the piece.
> 
> There is a cynicism in many people that compels them to resist anything that is or becomes popular or mainstream.


This isn't my reason for disliking it, but I think my reasons may be part of why it's so popular. I find it sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic, in more or less the same way as his other pieces that are extremely popular. Those must be commonly desired traits of music/art, but it's just not what floats my boat. As a musician and one who studies music theory, and someone who knows what they like and accepts what others like, I feel like I can make my assessment of art without a bias like that. I'm sure there are plenty of people with that kind of bias, but if all someone can say is "I don't like it because it's overplayed" (or, to make an analogy with modern music, "I don't like it because it's pretentious"), then I don't consider that a valid criticism.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> This isn't my reason for disliking it, but I think my reasons may be part of why it's so popular. I find it sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic, in more or less the same way as his other pieces that are extremely popular. Those must be commonly desired traits of music/art, but it's just not what floats my boat. As a musician and one who studies music theory, and someone who knows what they like and accepts what others like, I feel like I can make my assessment of art without a bias like that. I'm sure there are plenty of people with that kind of bias, but if all someone can say is "I don't like it because it's overplayed" (or, to make an analogy with modern music, "I don't like it because it's pretentious"), then I don't consider that a valid criticism.


It's valid, it's just not criteria you support as assessment of Art.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's valid, it's just not criteria you support as assessment of Art.


I suppose it's a valid thing to say, but at that point they aren't talking about the art anymore but about the cultural phenomena around it. Saying that something is overplayed would be a useful observation, but I wouldn't use that as "the" reason that I dislike something.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Coming 10 years after the Napoleonic Wars, the use of Schiller's poem always seemed to me like carrying coal to Newcastle. It's the least interesting thing about the 4th movement. I find the music so interesting that the words and their meaning are secondary. What is this beast? A cantata of variations? A modified sonata form? A symphony within a symphony? It's a fever dream of a composition that defies clear analysis....a mystery wrapped up in an engima. That's the genius.

As for the words.....if I may weigh in with my best Captain Renault impersonation.... "I'm shocked, shocked to find out that a composer with chronic money issues would write a symphony for 1000 florins using a populist sentiment!"


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> I suppose it's a valid thing to say, but at that point they aren't talking about the art anymore but about the cultural phenomena around it. Saying that something is overplayed would be a useful observation, but I wouldn't use that as "the" reason that I dislike something.


You wouldn't, but perhaps appreciating only underground, lesser known Art, is important to someone's identity as a man or woman. Art does help define and express the lives we want to lead.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

One view I’ve seen is that Beethoven was writing in reaction to the rather grim reinforcement of aristocratic political power in Europe since the Congress of Vienna. Many places had taken on the trappings of a police state. Perhaps Ludwig’s essay can be seen as something of a non-political protest.

In any event, the movement is certainly not religious in the sense then understood. God and his angels are merely looking down on Schiller’s sentiments with benign approval. The “stink of the church” associated by many with Bach’s choral music is nowhere to be found in this very humanist work.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You wouldn't, but perhaps appreciating only underground, lesser known Art, is important to someone's identity as a man or woman. Art does help define and express the lives we want to lead.


That would strike me as a pretentious snobby (or perhaps "hipstery") attitude if someone defines their taste in art by only allowing themselves to enjoy lesser known art and automatically saying they dislike something if it's popular (or the other way around). If someone just happens to only enjoy lesser known art and dislikes popular art, then that would be a different story, but I don't think they would say that they like or dislike the art "because" it's popular or unpopular.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> That would strike me as a pretentious snobby (or perhaps "hipstery") attitude if someone defines their taste in art by only allowing themselves to enjoy lesser known art and automatically saying they dislike something if it's popular (or the other way around). If someone just happens to only enjoy lesser known art and dislikes popular art, then that would be a different story, but I don't think they would say that they like or dislike the art "because" it's popular or unpopular.


Some ppl certainly do, and it's valid, even if you don't support or agree with it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> That would strike me as a pretentious snobby (or perhaps "hipstery") attitude if someone defines their taste in art by only allowing themselves to enjoy lesser known art and automatically saying they dislike something if it's popular (or the other way around). If someone just happens to only enjoy lesser known art and dislikes popular art, then that would be a different story, but I don't think they would say that they like or dislike the art "because" it's popular or unpopular.


You can't escape associations in Art, taste is based on criteria and criteria can either be explicit or implicit, depending on the individual. There is no such thing as a right or wrong way to appreciate Art, and no way is more genuine or honest than another. The only thing that matters is being respectful of others ppl's method of appreciating Art.

For instance, my criteria for Art Appreciation is if I love something or not, I find the reasons that make me enjoy something or not. While I like some straightforward stuff, the majority of what I like tends to be more obscure compared to what mainstream America enjoys.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fredx2098 said:


> This isn't my reason for disliking it, but *I think my reasons may be part of why it's so popular. I find it sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic, in more or less the same way as his other pieces that are extremely popular. Those must be commonly desired traits of music/art, but it's just not what floats my boat. *As a musician and one who studies music theory, and someone who knows what they like and accepts what others like, I feel like I can make my assessment of art without a bias like that. I'm sure there are plenty of people with that kind of bias, but if all someone can say is "I don't like it because it's overplayed" (or, to make an analogy with modern music, "I don't like it because it's pretentious"), then I don't consider that a valid criticism.


Why do you suggest that Beethoven's 9th - and his other most popular works - owe their popularity to their being "sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic"? I've heard plenty of sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic music, and definitely do not include the 9th, or most of Beethoven's works, in any of those categories.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Why do you suggest that Beethoven's 9th - and his other most popular works - owe their popularity to their being "sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic"? I've heard plenty of sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic music, and definitely do not include the 9th, or most of Beethoven's works, in any of those categories.


Agreed, it's anything but those adjectives utilized by Fred.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Why do you suggest that Beethoven's 9th - and his other most popular works - owe their popularity to their being "sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic"? I've heard plenty of sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic music, and definitely do not include the 9th, or most of Beethoven's works, in any of those categories.


Nor have I heard the 9th described that way in the criticisms about it. Not in a million years, especially the use of the word "sterile," which I find a breathtaking and disappointing mischaracterization. And as far as "bombastic" is concerned, I wouldn't consider the 9th any more bombastic than his other symphonies. Such explosiveness can be found in different ones and was characteristic of his essential temperament. I can only wonder at which specific "sterile" recording one has heard to form such conclusions, which are rarely mentioned if at all, keeping in mind that no one is obligated to like the composer in the first place if the characterizations of the music makes sense and have some type of historic precedence to back them up. Otherwise, it sounds like the criticism of a novice and, sorry, not to be taken seriously. though everyone has the right to their informed or uninformed opinion.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Why do you suggest that Beethoven's 9th - and his other most popular works - owe their popularity to their being "sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic"? I've heard plenty of sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic music, and definitely do not include the 9th, or most of Beethoven's works, in any of those categories.





Larkenfield said:


> Nor have I heard the 9th described that way in the criticisms about it. Not in a million years, especially the use of the word "sterile," which I find a breathtaking and disappointing mischaracterization. And as far as "bombastic" is concerned, I wouldn't consider the 9th any more bombastic than his other symphonies. Such explosiveness can be found in different ones and was characteristic of his essential temperament. I can only wonder at which specific "sterile" recording one has heard to form such conclusions, which are rarely mentioned if at all, keeping in mind that no one is obligated to like the composer in the first place if the characterizations of the music makes sense and have some type of historic precedence to back them up. Otherwise, it sounds like the criticism of a novice and, sorry, not to be taken seriously though everyone has the right to their informed or uninformed opinion.


It sounds tangibly "common practice" to me, along with his other works. He has a couple of ideas that he repeats over and over, sometimes with slight modification perhaps in dynamics, speed, or the instruments playing, and the ideas themselves aren't interesting to me. I don't think that the average listener wants music to surprise them. They want something that fulfills their expectations, which is what Beethoven does, I believe. Nothing in his music comes as a surprise to me (except perhaps in the Missa Solemnis and Große Fuge), and not because I've been over-exposed, which I haven't.

What negative things do critics say about it then? I can hear bland ideas being repeated in a typical way. I don't judge music based on recordings, ever. I might actually enjoy the 9th more than his other symphonies, but that means practically nothing coming from me. Any music that follows a common practice formula in a predictable (or, to put it in a way perhaps less likely to cause offense, "intuitive") bombastic way sounds sterile to me. That style of music is way too abundant in my opinion, but it must be abundant because that's what's popular. I feel that Mozart already did that style better and more creatively. Beethoven strikes me as a more simplistic and superficially bombastic version of Mozart. I don't intend for my criticism to sway or convince anyone of anything, though now I shall expect it to not be taken seriously, thank you. Criticism is only valid if someone else has said the same thing before?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Fredx2098 said:


> What negative things do critics say about it then? I can hear bland ideas being repeated in a typical way. I don't judge music based on recordings, ever. I might actually enjoy the 9th more than his other symphonies, but that means practically nothing coming from me. Any music that follows a common practice formula in a predictable (or, to put it in a way perhaps less likely to cause offense, "intuitive") bombastic way sounds sterile to me. That style of music is way too abundant in my opinion, but it must be abundant because that's what's popular. I feel that Mozart already did that style better and more creatively. Beethoven strikes me as a more simplistic and superficially bombastic version of Mozart. I don't intend for my criticism to sway or convince anyone of anything, though now I shall expect it to not be taken seriously, thank you. Criticism is only valid if someone else has said the same thing before?


I get the picture. You don't think well of Beethoven's music, and you love Feldman's. What else is new?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> I get the picture. You don't think well of Beethoven's music, and you love Feldman's. What else is new?


I don't think I've mentioned Feldman in this whole thread, have I? It's a feat. I said I like Mozart more. I'm not just fancifully obsessed with Feldman. I love many composers from every era of music. I didn't just hear Feldman and think "alright, nothing else matters now."


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Fredx2098 said:


> Criticism is only valid if someone else has said the same thing before?


It could at least be perceptive and insightful, rather than full of generalizations and a lack of comprehension.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Resurrexit said:


> It could at least be perceptive and insightful, rather than full of generalizations and a lack of comprehension.


I believe I've done that as well as stating my personal opinion. Maybe I could get an insightful explanation of where I spoke incorrectly aside from having never heard such criticism before. The music lacks interesting complexity to my ears. I'm not just a music listener saying that I don't like something and pretending to back it up.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> This isn't my reason for disliking it, but I think my reasons may be part of why it's so popular. I find it sterile, repetitive, predictable, and bombastic, in more or less the same way as his other pieces that are extremely popular. Those must be commonly desired traits of music/art, but it's just not what floats my boat. As a musician and one who studies music theory, and someone who knows what they like and accepts what others like, I feel like I can make my assessment of art without a bias like that. I'm sure there are plenty of people with that kind of bias, but if all someone can say is "I don't like it because it's overplayed" (or, to make an analogy with modern music, "I don't like it because it's pretentious"), then I don't consider that a valid criticism.


Are there any works of similar popularity and stature to Beethoven's ninth that you would not describe in this way?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Are there any works of similar popularity and stature to Beethoven's ninth that you would not describe in this way?


I love Bach's Mass in B minor which is at the top of the list for the favorite works game.

Unless you mean works that are popular and recognized by the general population. In that case, I love The Nutcracker and Swan Lake, perhaps others, but those are what come to mind.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> I love Bach's Mass in B minor which is at the top of the list for the favorite works game.
> 
> Unless you mean works that are popular and recognized by the general population. In that case, I love The Nutcracker and Swan Lake, perhaps others, but those are what come to mind.


Thanks. May I also ask how many times you have heard the ninth?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Perhaps it might be worthwhile asking if there is anyone here who enjoys both Morton Feldman and Beethoven?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Plenty I would expect. I like Feldman, I like Beethoven better though.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Thanks. May I also ask how many times you have heard the ninth?


Only a few times. I've listened to the 5th and 9th because they seem to be the most praised, and I'm just not a fan of his style. Every aspect of his music is like the opposite of what I enjoy. I enjoy a few of his pieces though, and I don't think anyone is "wrong" for liking him or that I'm "right" for disliking him.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I wonder if there is anyone who likes Beethoven and dislikes Feldman but appreciates his talent and creativity and doesn't think his music is meaningless and pointless.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm sure Mr. Feldman is a fine person and doesn't kick his dog more than necessary. But for listening, I prefer music. Beethoven is pretty good at that.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

So that was a no?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> Only a few times. I've listened to the 5th and 9th because they seem to be the most praised, and I'm just not a fan of his style. Every aspect of his music is like the opposite of what I enjoy. I enjoy a few of his pieces though, and I don't think anyone is "wrong" for liking him or that I'm "right" for disliking him.


I agree - nobody is 'wrong'.

Have you listened to Sibelius's seventh symphony?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> I wonder if there is anyone who likes Beethoven and dislikes Feldman but appreciates his talent and creativity and doesn't think his music is meaningless and pointless.


Feldman is on my ...long...to-do list.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> I agree - nobody is 'wrong'.
> 
> Have you listened to Sibelius's seventh symphony?


I haven't heard any of his music, but I've been meaning to give it a shot. Is that one you think I'd like in particular?



janxharris said:


> Feldman is on my ...long...to-do list.


Only one of his works is longer than any "normal" work that I know. Are you not a fan of Der Ring des Nibelungen or Tristan und Isolde? That would be questioning the accepted facts, wouldn't it? In this thread about an hour-long symphony, I wouldn't think length would be a problem. I don't think you should try to force yourself to like anything. Or do you plan to listen so you can come back and talk about how boring it is?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> I haven't heard any of his music, but I've been meaning to give it a shot. Is that one you think I'd like in particular?


I have no idea if you will like it. I put it above the Beethoven.



> Only one of his works is longer than any "normal" work that I know. Are you not a fan of Der Ring des Nibelungen or Tristan und Isolde? That would be questioning the accepted facts, wouldn't it? In this thread about an hour-long symphony, I wouldn't think length would be a problem. I don't think you should try to force yourself to like anything.


It's my to-do list that's long 

I love Wagner - though I still haven't listened to entire works. I love the Tristan prelude and have enjoyed much of the first hour of the rest - need to get round to more of it.



> Or do you plan to listen so you can come back and talk about how boring it is?


I don't have an agenda.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> I have no idea if you will like it. I put it above the Beethoven.
> 
> It's my to-do list that's long
> 
> ...


Sorry, just preparing for the worst. I thought it was a jab at the length of some of his works, but yes, the classical to-do list is always very long, such as my list of chamber works that I have to go through. I love the Mahler symphonies that I've heard (the first two or three maybe). Are the composers comparable?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> Sorry, just preparing for the worst. I love the Mahler symphonies that I've heard (the first two or three maybe). Are the composers comparable?


Hmmm - I love some Mahler movements but, for me, he overdoes and over-explains things. Sibelius is more succinct...imho.

When they met in 1907 Mahler said the symphony should _be like the world - it should embrace everything_. Sibelius, though, valued _severity of form and a profound logic that connected all the motifs_.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> No, certainly not. But we need to be careful in thinking we know what the theological idea is, and in drawing conclusions about Schiller's theology. The poem begins with the line, _Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium_ ("Joy, beautiful spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium"). This is a reference to Greek mythology. Isn't that a theological idea too? Is Schiller identifying the Greek gods and the afterlife of heroes with the Christian God and heaven? What are his personal beliefs about either? Does it matter?


Elysium is a synonym for heaven in this context. Schiller's early thought might have incorporated a hint of skepticism coloured by pantheism, and he certainly wasn't lost for a mythological reference (Die Goetter Griechenlands), but this reference:
https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1888&context=ocj (from the section, Schiller's religion) 
makes a very good case for Schiller's Christianity from any reasonable understanding of this term.

Beethoven's views however are more important when it comes to the musical effects and affects of his work. He severely massaged Schiller's words in places but he never changed the specifically Christian connotation (associated as it was with notions of brotherhood, and therefore perhaps freemasonry (and therefore Die Zauberfloete, strangely)) which he knew would be understood. This would not at all conflict with what is known with Beethoven's own beliefs.

Had Beethoven chosen Goethe, a known pantheist (e.g. Talismane of Schumann, which rejects specific religious truths for a statement of universal religious truths) I feel the effect and implication would be quite different.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Surely, if Schiller and Beethoven's use of the Ode to Joy was a religious statement it would have represented the Brotherhood of all Catholics or all Christians. Is there any evidence of that other than Schiller referring to a Supreme Being, in so many words, the planets, all of Creation, in a sense, and humanity as a whole rather than a segment of it? It seems evident that humanity as a whole was being represented, irrespective of any preaching and religious dogma. I believe that's why it's viewed as such a universal human statement. No one is being excluded. No one. That's the true Brotherhood of Man and why those from just about any country in the world have embraced it, such as the 10,000 people in Japan feeling comfortable enough to perform it. The hope for a better world is still alive, and I think Beethoven would be pleased by such a thrilling event that unites rather than divides when different religions and cultures have been known to divide humanity as a whole.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eusebius12 said:


> Elysium is a synonym for heaven in this context. Schiller's early thought might have incorporated a hint of skepticism coloured by pantheism, and he certainly wasn't lost for a mythological reference (Die Goetter Griechenlands), but this reference:
> https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1888&context=ocj (from the section, Schiller's religion)
> makes a very good case for Schiller's Christianity from *any reasonable understanding of this term*.
> 
> ...


In Schiller's poem I see a generic theism of some sort associated with the idea of the brotherhood of man. I don't see Christ or any of the theology associated with him. This doesn't seem to exemplify a "reasonable" (or at least a usual) understanding of Christianity. Unitarian Universalism, maybe.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> In Schiller's poem I see a generic theism of some sort associated with the idea of the brotherhood of man. I don't see Christ or any of the theology associated with him. This doesn't seem to exemplify a "reasonable" (or at least a usual) understanding of Christianity. Unitarian Universalism, maybe.


It isn't a theological tract. Maybe "An Die Freiheit" really was referring to LGBT rights, it doesn't specifically say it doesn't.

If it makes you more comfortable to divorce the setting from its context, then go right ahead. People can take anything they want from music. No doubt this music speaks on many levels.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> In Schiller's poem I see a generic theism of some sort associated with the idea of the brotherhood of man. I don't see Christ or any of the theology associated with him. This doesn't seem to exemplify a "reasonable" (or at least a usual) understanding of Christianity. Unitarian Universalism, maybe.


Beethoven did alter the credo in his Missa Solemnis in a way that more accords with Unitarian beliefs


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Eusebius12 said:


> Beethoven did alter the credo in his Missa Solemnis in a way that more accords with Unitarian beliefs


I would greatly appreciate more details of this alteration. Is there a source?

BTW I have a suspicion that the phrase "Unitarian beliefs" is an oxymoron.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eusebius12 said:


> It isn't a theological tract. Maybe "An Die Freiheit" really was referring to LGBT rights, it doesn't specifically say it doesn't.
> 
> If it makes you more comfortable to divorce the setting from its context, then go right ahead. People can take anything they want from music. No doubt this music speaks on many levels.


I'm not divorcing anything from any context. I'm just rejecting a narrowly Christian interpretation of Schiller's poem. Christianity is too fond of trying to monopolize ethics (not hard to do if you think all non-Christians are destined for you-know-what), and I hardly think that either Schiller or Beethoven had a parochial view of the God of "Alle Menschen."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I would greatly appreciate more details of this alteration. Is there a source?
> 
> BTW I have a suspicion that the phrase "Unitarian beliefs' is an oxymoron.


I once attended a Unitarian meeting where an old guy sat down next to me and within five minutes told me he was an atheist. It's the Unitarian way of breaking the ice.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I once attended a Unitarian meeting where an old guy sat down next to me and within five minutes told me he was an atheist. It's the Unitarian way of breaking the ice.


It's the old joke: "A Unitarian is an agnostic, but not a devout one."


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I once attended a Unitarian meeting where an old guy sat down next to me and within five minutes told me he was an atheist. It's the Unitarian way of breaking the ice.





KenOC said:


> It's the old joke: "A Unitarian is an agnostic, but not a devout one."


Two posts right after each other: You guys just knocked it out of the park!!! Lol! Well played!!!

V


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The agnostic's prayer: "Dear God--if there is a god, save my soul--if I have a soul!"


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> Surely, if Schiller and Beethoven's use of the Ode to Joy was a religious statement it would have represented the Brotherhood of all Catholics or all Christians. Is there any evidence of that other than Schiller referring to a Supreme Being, in so many words, the planets, all of Creation, in a sense, and humanity as a whole rather than a segment of it? It seems evident that humanity as a whole was being represented, irrespective of any preaching and religious dogma. I believe that's why it's viewed as such a universal human statement. No one is being excluded. No one. That's the true Brotherhood of Man and why those from just about any country in the world have embraced it, such as the 10,000 people in Japan feeling comfortable enough to perform it. The hope for a better world is still alive, and I think Beethoven would be pleased by such a thrilling event that unites rather than divides when different religions and cultures have been known to divide humanity as a whole.


Or Beethoven was mindful of the great commission of Christ to go out and preach to all the nations. Beethoven explicit calls on all men to seek their creator father. Whether there is truth in such belief I know not, but that is what Beethoven expresses.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> In Schiller's poem I see a generic theism of some sort associated with the idea of the brotherhood of man.


Careful, you'll be arguing he was socialist next. I wonder if Schiller/Beethoven actually meant, literally, all human kind, or whether they just had men in mind?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Are you suggesting Beethoven was insincere in citing Schiller with the words:
> 
> _Be embraced, you millions!
> This kiss is for the whole world!
> ...


Read my post again.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Whether there is truth in such belief I know not, but that is what Beethoven expresses.


Did he tell you that when you came across him during one of his walks in the forest? What a privilege it must have been to meet the man himself!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Careful, you'll be arguing he was socialist next. I wonder if Schiller/Beethoven actually meant, literally, all human kind, or whether they just had men in mind?


Clever post. I agree with it's sentiment that ppl are trying to take away from what is obviously meant in the words.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Careful, you'll be arguing he was socialist next.


You may scoff but I believe Symphony 10 was going to be Ludwig's 'Socialist Symphony'. The 4th movement was allegedly an hour long speech on worker's ownership of the means of production, which Beethoven planned to do himself. If's true - I read it in the Daily Mail.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Merl said:


> You may scoff but I believe Symphony 10 was going to be Ludwig's 'Socialist Symphony'. The 4th movement was allegedly an hour long speech on worker's ownership of the means of production, which Beethoven planned to do himself. If's true - I read it in the Daily Mail.


Not at all unthinkable.

"There should be a single Art Exchange in the world, to which the artist would simply send his works and be given in return as much as he needs." -Ludwig van Beethoven

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." --Karl Marx


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> Did he tell you that when you came across him during one of his walks in the forest? What a privilege it must have been to meet the man himself!


Perhaps you might like to offer a plausible alternative interpretation of 'father' and 'your Creator' as they appear in the text from a man brought up as a Catholic?


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## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

My favorite recording of it is Furtwangler's 1954 version at the Lucerne festival. It's on youtube. He makes the first movement last 18 minutes, and the third 20 minutes. Listening to it felt like listening to the symphony for the first time.

Beethoven is my absolute favorite composer. In his book _The Ninth: Beethoven and the world in 1824_ Harvey Sachs at the end of the book, in an emotional section, says that Beethoven is his "alpha and omega." That might be true of me as well.

That said I'm considering taking a break from Beethoven's music for some years so that (perhaps) I might forget it and rediscover it again. I've pretty much explored everything, even obscurities like his late period song _Opferlied_ for voice and orchestra (it's good.)


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Perhaps you might like to offer a plausible alternative interpretation of 'father' and 'your Creator' as they appear in the text from a man brought up as a Catholic?


Have you ever considered that words function as metaphors? Depending on the context of its use, 'God' can have different senses, and can signify something the user might not be conscious of. In the latter case, we probably shouldn't judge. I might use the word 'God' because I want to ruminate upon it as a concept. 'God' and 'creator' are religious images/concepts. _This does not mean that their use necessarily derives from a wish to spell out absolute ontological commitments concerning spiritual entities, nor does it necessarily derive from a wish to clearly express personal commitments to a belief system._ In fact they are so abstract as to be able to take on multiple senses. Because of their unusual breadth as concepts, they can even be used to express things beyond what almost all other people before have meant by it. 'God' can mean something different to a romantic composer than what it might for an everyday churchgoer or priest, or for a dogmatic atheist for that matter.

I have to say, I deem your injunction to 'offer a plausible alternative interpretation' in this case as strange as if someone came up to me and demanded an alternative interpretation to Wordsworth's floral imagery than that he 'must have been a botanist'.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I've just been listening to this Wagner guy and quite a lot of his work seems to mention old Norse gods. I simply have to conclude that he really believed in the unqualified, entirely non-metaphorical ontic actuality of Odin and Wotan! He even read books about them throughout his life... further evidence!


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Always amuses me how atheists rail against a god they don't believe in! :lol:


That's literally my father, but he had to cope with more Catholic domination in his education and family when he was young. I'm more chilled-out. Both of us atheist.  Dear entity, I'm sure I did things wrong. Send me to Hell anyway. I'm dead LOL.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> Surely, if Schiller and Beethoven's use of the Ode to Joy was a religious statement it would have represented the Brotherhood of all Catholics or all Christians. Is there any evidence of that other than Schiller referring to a Supreme Being, in so many words, the planets, all of Creation, in a sense, and humanity as a whole rather than a segment of it? It seems evident that humanity as a whole was being represented, irrespective of any preaching and religious dogma. I believe that's why it's viewed as such a universal human statement. No one is being excluded. No one. That's the true Brotherhood of Man and why those from just about any country in the world have embraced it, such as the 10,000 people in Japan feeling comfortable enough to perform it. The hope for a better world is still alive, and I think Beethoven would be pleased by such a thrilling event that unites rather than divides when different religions and cultures have been known to divide humanity as a whole.


This is a musical travesty (in recording technology terms too) and I have watched Mahler's No.8 actually played by a thousand people in Venezuela by Dudamel. :lol:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I am not, and have never been, conventionally religious. Since being first exposed to it sometime in grammar school, I have taken Beethoven's setting of the Ode to be a call to feelings of joyfulness (as opposed to whatever the opposite may be), and using that to inspire universal brotherhood -- which can be taken to be a desired thing. And that is what it does for me. (In the same way, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in school inspired in me a feeling of patriotism whether or not I mouthed the words "under God" -- which were inserted to please a subset of the voting populace.) I believe it does so for many people: Christian, Jew, Islam, atheist, most of Japan, etc. Schiller's words -- other than the plea for Universal Brotherhood -- just came along for the ride. 
The Missa Solemnis, on the other hand, was intended to inspire (in B's words) "religious feelings" in the listener. And that it certainly does, whether or not the intention was specifically the Catholic catecysm.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm starting to think this might be my favorite symphony by Beethoven, and it is the only Symphony I have in my collection.
> 
> *This implies it might be my favorite symphony of all time, nothing comes even close based on what I've listened to.
> *
> It's god the human element of drama (that was prominent for the Romantic era and lacking in the Classical/Baroque eras) but is matched with divine feelings during the popular melodic motif that is sung in the final movement.


I hear ya, I used to think the same some 25 years ago. There was no greater thing for me than Beethoven's 9th then, and thought it was going to be like that forever.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I went nuts over Beethoven's Ninth, listened to it incessantly, amassed a collection of some 50 CDs of it, then discovered other music and moved on. Still love the Ninth, but burned out on it and rarely listen to it anymore.


Ditto - Although in comparison I only posses some 20 versions on it on CD.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> I've just been listening to this Wagner guy and quite a lot of his work seems to mention old Norse gods. I simply have to conclude that he really believed in the unqualified, entirely non-metaphorical ontic actuality of Odin and Wotan! He even read books about them throughout his life... further evidence!


I'm not aware of Wagner ever asserting that he believed in such. Beethoven, however (as I said) was brought up as a Catholic and wrote a Mass or two (I accept, though, that LvB was rather ambivalent through his life).

It would be a fair assumption to believe that in 1824 he was more of a believer than not - or do we charge LvB with gross disingenuity?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Granate said:


> This is a musical travesty (in recording technology terms too) and I have watched Mahler's No.8 actually played by a thousand people in Venezuela by Dudamel. :lol:


How generous and culturally sensitive, just wow. This performance has nothing whatsoever to do, either technically or sonically, with competing with Dudamel's Mahler 8th. This is 10,000 people celebrating Beethoven'a Ode to Joy in Japan for entirely different reasons. It has transcended virtually every culture and religion. That's what he was trying to do, wasn't it? He invited everybody to the party, even you. It was a momentous event in a country that has gone through a Hiroshima and Nagasaki. "Musical travesty"? More like a musical miracle.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Is it just me or are the religious of our world becoming a little desperate? There is considerable understanding among people who know far more if the history of ideas or of German literature and music that Beethoven's intention was essentially humanist. Why are so many so desperate to shoehorn in the suggestion that the work is essentially religious? There is surely enough very great music that clearly has been inspired by religious feelings and experiences. I guess faith these days makes you despise all rationality and scholarship.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Is it just me or are the religious of our world becoming a little desperate? There is considerable understanding among people who know far more if the history of ideas or of German literature and music that Beethoven's intention was essentially humanist. Why are so many so desperate to shoehorn in the suggestion that the work is essentially religious? There is surely enough very great music that clearly has been inspired by religious feelings and experiences. I guess faith these days makes you despise all rationality and scholarship.


'Father' and 'your Creator' (in their context) make his intentions 'essentially humanist'?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I'm not aware of Wagner ever asserting that he believed in such. Beethoven, however (as I said) was brought up as a Catholic and wrote a Mass or two (I accept, though, that LvB was rather ambivalent through his life).
> 
> It would be a fair assumption to believe that in 1824 he was more of a believer than not - or do we charge LvB with gross disingenuity?


Why would we charge him with gross disingenuity? Because he may have used a word somewhat metaphorically? In that case, hang me next time I compare thee to a summer's day.



janxharris said:


> (I accept, though, that LvB was rather ambivalent through his life)


Well there you go.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> 'Father' and 'your Creator' (in their context) make his intentions 'essentially humanist'?


They don't make his intentions 'essentially' anything.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> Why would we charge him with gross disingenuity? Because he may have used a word somewhat metaphorically? In that case, hang me next time I compare thee to a summer's day.
> 
> Well there you go.


Are you an atheist Tallisman?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I'm not aware of Wagner ever asserting that he believed in such. Beethoven, however (as I said) was brought up as a Catholic and wrote a Mass or two (I accept, though, that LvB was rather ambivalent through his life).
> 
> It would be a fair assumption to believe that in 1824 he was more of a believer than not - or do we charge LvB with gross disingenuity?


Again, drawing those dichotomies that simply don't fit a man like Beethoven: 'believer or not'. Beethoven wasn't so simple, nor are many other people, I'm afraid. How do you know he wouldn't reject your very terms?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Are you an atheist Tallisman?


Let's say I generally refrain from positing things whose validation necessarily lies out of the realm of experience. This doesn't mean I just go by some cheap new atheist mantra like 'seeing is believing', but I'm happy with the profundity of nature, art, philosophy and music that for me need no supernatural surplus.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> Again, drawing those dichotomies that simply don't fit a man like Beethoven: 'believer or not'. Beethoven wasn't so simple, nor are many other people, I'm afraid. How do you know he wouldn't reject your very terms?


Oh come on stop being so retroactive and trying to impose 21st century thought on a man brought up in the 18th. Do men who pray to God believe in Him? I would say, yes very probably.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2018)

DavidA said:


> Always amuses me how atheists rail against a god they don't believe in! :lol:


What has this to do with the topic of Beethoven's 9th?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

"Beethoven's letters and notebooks give testimony to his strong belief in a personal God. One of his favorite books was a work by a Lutheran pastor called _Reflections on the Works of God and His Providence Throughout All Nature_, an example of the early-Romantic love of the natural world (often incorrectly labeled "pantheism") which fed into such Beethoven works as the Pastoral Symphony. Other Beethoven quotations about God-particularly those written during the agonizing onset of his deafness-emphasize his nearness and his understanding of suffering, in language that often recalls the Psalms. Christ is invoked as a suffering fellow-man (if not as Son of God). Beethoven also frequently wrote religious inscriptions and titles on his compositions: "Grateful thanks to the Almighty after the storm," "Holy song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Deity."
--
Nevertheless, there was no dogma or the preaching of religion in his Ninth Symphony, but there were references to a Deity. The sidetracking into everyone's personal beliefs has nothing to do with it. It was his symphony to write and not anyone else's.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> They don't make his intentions 'essentially' anything.


It was Beethoven 's choice to use 'father' and 'your Creator'; no valid reason for not accepting their import at face value has been proffered.

Are you suggesting that Beethoven in imploring us with:

'Oh friends, not these sounds!
Let us instead strike up more pleasing
and more joyful ones!'

is actually presenting his fellow men with essentially nothing? Empty words?


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## IpadComposer (Aug 12, 2018)

Good that Beet was deaf so he wouldn't have to hear this. A couple more tries and I am heading back to the Gaza border. More peaceful there.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

IpadComposer said:


> Good that Beet was deaf so he wouldn't have to hear this. A couple more tries and I am heading back to the Gaza border. More peaceful there.


Don't be disheartened. As Sung Tzu said, "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." Sometimes it's just better to sit in the background and watch, look for your opportunity, and then say something so outlandish that everyone just has to take a breath.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

This thread is in some danger of being derailed into arguments about the merits and demerits of theists and atheists, and not necessarily enlightening arguments.

Some off topic posts have been unapproved (not deleted at this point) and their appropriateness to the thread, or otherwise, will be deliberated collectively.

Please try to keep to the thread topic, viz., a discussion of Beethoven's 9th symphony.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> "Beethoven's letters and notebooks give testimony to his strong belief in a personal God.[...]


Thanks for this quote, but you give no source. Was it here?

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2016/beethoven-catholic-church

You might expect a Catholic magazine to claim LvB for their own!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Swafford in his new biography says that Beethoven became more of a traditional Catholic in his last decade of life. One indication (from my viewpoint anyway) is the detailed treatment he gave the heart of the Credo in the Missa Solemnis – other masses of the time tended to give the words shorter shrift, but Beethoven made quite a drama out of them.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Swafford in his new biography says that Beethoven became more of a traditional Catholic in his last decade of life. One indication (from my viewpoint anyway) is the detailed treatment he gave the heart of the Credo in the Missa Solemnis - other masses of the time tended to give the words shorter shrift, but Beethoven made quite a drama out of them.


There's none of the famous pictures of Beethoven which was painted with the score of the Missa in his hand. When the artist asked what movement he wanted painted in Beethoven said 'Credo'!


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Swafford in his new biography says that Beethoven became more of a traditional Catholic in his last decade of life. One indication (from my viewpoint anyway) is the detailed treatment he gave the heart of the Credo in the Missa Solemnis - other masses of the time tended to give the words shorter shrift, but Beethoven made quite a drama out of them.


Also, he refers to prayer on the score of the Missa Solemnis and copiously in his personal papers. On one note he writes:

"Therefore, calmly will I submit myself to all inconstancy and will place all my trust in your unchangeable goodness, O God! My soul shall rejoice in you, immutable Being. Be my rock, my light, my trust for ever!" (a quote from Christoph Christian Sturm). There is also the 'Holy song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Deity' in his A minor string quartet. A religious work amongst his instrumental works. But the same mood of spiritual exaltation and heavenly aspiration can be seen in numerous of his late works, such as the finales of op.109,110 and 111, and the slow movement of op.106.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Eusebius12 said:


> Also, he refers to prayer on the score of the Missa Solemnis and copiously in his personal papers. On one note he writes:
> 
> "Therefore, calmly will I submit myself to all inconstancy and will place all my trust in your unchangeable goodness, O God! My soul shall rejoice in you, immutable Being. Be my rock, my light, my trust for ever!" (a quote from Christoph Christian Sturm). There is also the 'Holy song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Deity' in his A minor string quartet. A religious work amongst his instrumental works. But the same mood of spiritual exaltation and heavenly aspiration can be seen in numerous of his late works, such as the finales of op.109,110 and 111, and the slow movement of op.106.


Of course he also wrote on the title page: "It comes from the heart. May it go to the heart." An indication Beethoven appeared to believe the words he had set.


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