# Beethoven



## Doron

Is the best


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## Judith

Love most of his works.

My favourite being 7th symphony especially second movement!

Just love it!!


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## Jacred

Welcome to TC, Doron! Yes, Beethoven wrote many great pieces; I agree with Judith on the 7th symphony. I would also add the 3rd, 5th and 9th symphonies.

(If I recall correctly, there was another Beethoven guestbook where several forum members were just talking about their top 25 favourite Beethoven works... )


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## Art Rock

Jacred said:


> (If I recall correctly, there was another Beethoven guestbook where several forum members were just talking about their top 25 favourite Beethoven works... )


Link. 
.......................


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## millionrainbows

Beethoven created "his own world" in a way, and to an extent, that had never been done before, and with consummate craftsmanship. With such a combination, it could not lose.


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## Tchaikov6

Jacred said:


> Welcome to TC, Doron! Yes, Beethoven wrote many great pieces; I agree with Judith on the 7th symphony. I would also add the 3rd, 5th and 9th symphonies.


I would also add the first, second, fourth, sixth, and eighth symphonies, and all the piano concertos, and the violin concerto and the string quartets and the piano trios and piano sonatas and violin sonatas and... well... pretty much everything he wrote. :lol:


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## Pugg

Doron said:


> Is the best


Welcome to TalkClassical Doran, see Art Rocks link, more Beethoven there.


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## Merl

Judith said:


> Love most of his works.
> 
> My favourite being 7th symphony especially second movement!
> 
> Just love it!!


The first symphony I sample from any new Beethoven cycle is the 7th. If it's average then it usually follows that the rest of the set is too (there are a few exceptions but very few). I usually use the first and second movements as my yardstick.


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## Jacred

Tchaikov6 said:


> I would also add the first, second, fourth, sixth, and eighth symphonies, and all the piano concertos, and the violin concerto and the string quartets and the piano trios and piano sonatas and violin sonatas and... well... pretty much everything he wrote. :lol:


Hahaha, I was going to go for that too, the everything part. :lol:


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## Vaneyes

millionrainbows said:


> Beethoven created "his own world" in a way, and to an extent, that had never been done before, and with consummate craftsmanship. With such a combination, it could not lose.


Rameau, JSBach, Handel, Haydn????


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## Pugg

Vaneyes said:


> Rameau, JSBach, Handel, Haydn????


I do think O.P has clearly Beethoven as favourite Vaneyes. 
( Why else open a new thread)


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## millionrainbows

Vaneyes said:


> Rameau, JSBach, Handel, Haydn????


No, they did not create their "own world" in the way, or to the extent, that Beethoven did.

Bach: His OWN world, not the Church's, or God's, or a private, interior monologue

Rameau: His OWN world, not an elite upper class or royalty

Handel: His OWN world, not the Church's

Haydn: His OWN world, not the Church or an elite upper class

So what is left? US! WE are the ones Beethoven was communicating with! WE the common people! All men are equal!


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Beethoven created "his own world" in a way, and to an extent, that had never been done before, and with consummate craftsmanship. With such a combination, it could not lose.


I think you make a very interesting claim there, but I'd say you go too far, think Cage, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, Feldman, Chopin, Wagner.

And is it really his own world he creates, rather than Schiller's and the world of the revolution in France? And the world of some sort of religious stuff, Hinduism maybe, that he got into in the final phase.


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## Bettina

Mandryka said:


> I think you make a very interesting claim there, but I'd say you go too far, think Cage, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, Feldman, Chopin, Wagner.
> 
> And is it really his own world he creates, rather than Schiller's and the world of the revolution in France? And the world of some sort of religious stuff, Hinduism maybe, that he got into in the final phase.


Perhaps Beethoven didn't create his own world out of nothing, but he certainly created an innovative synthesis of pre-existing worlds: German Romanticism, Enlightenment philosophy, French revolutionary politics, religious mysticism, etc. He was the only composer who engaged with that particular combination of worlds - and he was the first composer to translate those worlds into music.


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## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Rameau, JSBach, Handel, Haydn????


Careful. You can be Rameau-ved!


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## Chronochromie

millionrainbows said:


> Rameau: His OWN world, not an elite upper class or royalty


He was hardly a loved establishment composer when he started writing operas - as seen by the reception of Hippolyte et Aricie and his subsequent early operas. Lully's ghost was still present at court.


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## Vaneyes

Chronochromie said:


> He was hardly a loved establishment composer when he started writing operas - as seen by the reception of Hippolyte et Aricie and his subsequent early operas. Lully's ghost was still present at court.


Gosh, we've entered the Spin Zone. Neither you or I lived then, so let's try to keep it in the Now, shall we. The Now at Archiv Music (one example) says Lully has 131 available recs., and Rameau 365.

Maybe we have a "It's not how you start, it's how you finish" haymaker here. Cheers!


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## Vaneyes

millionrainbows said:


> No, they did not create their "own world" in the way, or to the extent, that Beethoven did.
> 
> Bach: His OWN world, not the Church's, or God's, or a private, interior monologue
> 
> Rameau: His OWN world, not an elite upper class or royalty
> 
> Handel: His OWN world, not the Church's
> 
> Haydn: His OWN world, not the Church or an elite upper class
> 
> So what is left? US! WE are the ones Beethoven was communicating with! WE the common people! All men are equal!


Own world. Huh? Say no more.


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## hpowders

Sorry! I thought this was the Beethoven thread.


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## premont

hpowders said:


> Sorry! I thought this was the Beethoven thread.


Yes. once it was.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> I think you make a very interesting claim there, but I'd say you go too far, think Cage, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, Feldman, Chopin, Wagner.
> 
> And is it really his own world he creates, rather than Schiller's and the world of the revolution in France? And the world of some sort of religious stuff, Hinduism maybe, that he got into in the final phase.


I see Beethoven as the first truly great "institution-free" composer.

All that you mention as contradiction reinforces my point: democracy, all men are one.

Also, it's common knowledge that Beethoven was the first "independent" composer, free from royalty and church.

Why don't you critics try to see the point, instead of all this exceptionalism…you know it's true.


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## millionrainbows

hpowders said:


> Sorry! I thought this was the Beethoven thread.





premont said:


> Yes. once it was.


Yes, before Vaneyes mentioned all those other composers. Mandryka must be considered guilty as well.


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## millionrainbows

Bettina said:


> Perhaps Beethoven didn't create his own world out of nothing, but he certainly created an innovative synthesis of pre-existing worlds: German Romanticism, Enlightenment philosophy, French revolutionary politics, religious mysticism, etc. He was the only composer who engaged with that particular combination of worlds - and he was the first composer to translate those worlds into music.


Wow, everybody is so specifically literal! Of course, not out of nothing; he was a product of his times: the individual with rights! This was a radical concept back then, called "democracy." That's all I meant. Everybody wants to bite my head off now.
 poor me...


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## millionrainbows

premont said:


> Yes. once it was.


…but now it's a whining thread. :lol:


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## Bettina

millionrainbows said:


> Wow, everybody is so specifically literal! Of course, not out of nothing; he was a product of his times: the individual with rights! This was a radical concept back then, called "democracy." That's all I meant. Everybody wants to bite my head off now.
> poor me...


I'm sorry - I didn't mean to nitpick on your post! I wasn't disagreeing with what you said. I was just adding my own thoughts about how Beethoven's own world was a combination of various worlds that he drew together. Your thought-provoking post has sparked a lively discussion, and I think you should take that as a compliment. :tiphat:


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## hpowders

premont said:


> Yes. once it was.


I thought I took a right when I shoulda taken a left somewhere....


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## Chronochromie

Vaneyes said:


> Gosh, we've entered the Spin Zone. Neither you or I lived then, so let's try to keep it in the Now, shall we. The Now at Archiv Music (one example) says Lully has 131 available recs., and Rameau 365.
> 
> Maybe we have a "It's not how you start, it's how you finish" haymaker here. Cheers!


(Re-)Read the post to which I responded. I'm a huge Rameau fan although I do like Lully.


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## millionrainbows

Bettina said:


> I'm sorry - I didn't mean to nitpick on your post! I wasn't disagreeing with what you said. I was just adding my own thoughts about how Beethoven's own world was a combination of various worlds that he drew together. Your thought-provoking post has sparked a lively discussion, and I think you should take that as a compliment. :tiphat:


I'm too sensitive for this world.

I see that powders is still bitter about the Rameau etc. references _made by vaneyes…_I'm bitter, too.


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## millionrainbows

I see Beethoven as the first truly great "gluten-free" composer.


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## hpowders

Thanks to Beethoven, soap and dentistry were invented.


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## hpowders

millionrainbows said:


> I'm too sensitive for this world.
> 
> I see that powders is still bitter about the Rameau etc. references _made by vaneyes…_I'm bitter, too.


Rameau-ve this post. I am not bitter. Simply sour.


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## hpowders

Beethoven was deaf, but his music wasn't.

Cage could hear, but 4'33" was deaf-defying.


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## premont

hpowders said:


> beethoven was deaf, but his music wasn't.


hear, hear, hear !!!


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## hpowders

premont said:


> hear, hear, hear !!!


Beethoven placed this ad in the 1803, June 15th Vienna Gazette:

"Friends, Austrians, Countrymen, lend me your ears!!!"

It was located next to the opinion poll: Bach & Handel: Godz or Godzillas?


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## Pugg

Doron said:


> Is the best


Can you still follow what the #@[email protected] this is all about O.P


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## millionrainbows

Beethoven is one of the greatest artists in human history, along with Michelangelo and the invention and development of refrigeration.

Just last night, as I ate my from-frozen turnip greens (with diced turnips), I pondered this. Flash-freezing is surely as great an achievement as the Ninth Symphony, and probably more universally appreciated, judging from some of the criticisms of the Ninth I've seen on this forum.


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## SixFootScowl

........................................................................................


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## Merl

Fritz Kobus said:


> This is interesting


That sawing the legs off his pianos story has been mostly debunked yet it still does the rounds. It's a bit like that message that gets passed round Facebook, every year or so, that says FB is gonna have to be paid for unless you cut and paste some statement on your FB wall. Utter rubbish. If LvB was missing any piano legs it was only as a result of transportation. Its a bit like saying Jimmy Page used to play his guitar with the guitar on the floor a few feet away from him.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> That sawing the legs off his pianos story has been mostly debunked yet it still does the rounds. It's a bit like that message that gets passed round Facebook, every year or so, that says FB is gonna have to be paid for unless you cut and paste some statement on your FB wall. Utter rubbish. If LvB was missing any piano legs it was only as a result of transportation. Its a bit like saying Jimmy Page used to play his guitar with the guitar on the floor a few feet away from him.


Thanks for the clarification! I deleted my posting of the video so that if anyone here chooses to watch it, they have to go from your post and see the commentary.


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## gellio

Listening to the Third Symphony. I just love this man so much. His music was for the people, and he bared his soul in his music - he let’s us into his life. THE ORIGINAL ROCK STAR!


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## Itullian

Today is the day the great Beethoven died.
God bless you Maestro.
And thank you for your eternal, magnificent music.
:tiphat: :angel:


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Beethoven is one of the greatest artists in human history, along with Michelangelo and the invention and development of refrigeration.
> 
> Just last night, as I ate my from-frozen turnip greens (with diced turnips), I pondered this. Flash-freezing is surely as great an achievement as the Ninth Symphony, and probably more universally appreciated, judging from some of the criticisms of the Ninth I've seen on this forum.


About Beethoven and refrigeration: back in the day they had already worked that out; they shipped in (via horse cart) blocks of ice which the Vienese placed in their cellars and used it to make ice-cream. Not sure they had frozen turnip greens, but who knows.


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## millionrainbows

I've got just four words for you: Da-da-da-daaah!


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## flamencosketches

Rest in peace, Beethoven. Fitting that I listened to like 5 of his piano sonatas yesterday and 2 quartets yesterday. I didn't even know it was the day.


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