# Black Sabbath discussion



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I'm listening to all their albums right now. So I want to know what TC generally thinks about their music? What's your favorite? Least favorite? Whatever else comes up?

I'm on "Never Say Die" right now. I don't think it sounds as bad as a lot of people say, but it sounds like a debut album sort of and really sub-par especially considering it came after "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" and "Sabotage", which are probably my two favorites atm.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

I like them quite a bit althought I haven't heard them very much since my last phase. My fav album is Paranoid, boring answer, I know , probably Master of Reality comes after.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2013)

The first 6 and Heaven And Hell are all you'll ever need.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Yeah, they lost it at the end of the 70s, but got it back for a while with Dio (assuming you can appreciate cheesy 80s metal). New album is sterile and unnecessary to my ears. Everything from s/t to Sabotage is a stone cold classic though.

There isn't a stoner rock or doom metal album out there that isn't just a variation on Master of Reality.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Some rock critics would have us believe that back in the 70s Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple were for the more cultured heavy rock fans and the likes of Grand Funk and Black Sabbath were for blue-collar oiks who liked things kept simple. Whether that's true or not it's of little consequence - Black Sabbath have arguably been the most influential of them all.

On the whole, I agree with arcaneholocaust when it comes to their best albums - but I would add Mob Rules which I think was fairly good. Sabbath tried to slightly modernise - if that's the right word - their style for Technical Ecstacy and Never Say Die but the results were mixed: at a push you might just about get a good album by taking the best tracks from both. By then the band were jaded - I saw Sabbath on the Never Say Die tour in their back yard of Birmingham and they were pretty awful. You could tell something was wrong. It was like witnessing the ending of one era and the ushering in of another in a way as the young, hungry and semi-unknown group who supported them pretty much blew them off stage (take a bow, Van Halen...). 

Not long after that Ozzy was out. When I saw them in Bristol two years later with Dio they seemed reinvigorated and played much better. I was lucky enough to meet three of the band after as they came onto our coach afterwards to say hello (sadly Geezer declined). Poor Dio spent most of his time fielding questions about him leaving Rainbow and what was Ritchie Blackmore like but he handled it with good grace. Also I never knew how imposing Tony Iommi looked until I stood next to him - about 6'5" in his cuban heels, I'd say. Dio, in similar footwear, was nearly a foot shorter.

After Dio and Appice left for the first time the 'revolving door' band member policy got embarrassing and the albums I heard from then on had little of the inspiration which earmarked much of the material up until then. I'm not denying Iommi the right to earn a living but often it was Sabbath as a brand name only, especially when Geezer wasn't involved. The rot set in when they got Ian Gillan to replace Dio - big name but the WRONG big name (and the resulting Born Again album was lame), and after that things just got worse.

As regards the latest reunion, it's a pity Bill Ward isn't involved but I'm not convinced that with his heart trouble he'd be up to playing much anyway. I haven't heard the album but the level of its success (especially in the UK) has took me by surprise. 

And finally, I hope Tony Iommi makes a full recovery from his illness.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Can someone tell me what they like about "Heaven and Hell"? I listened to it for the first time about an hour ago but I didn't like it that much overall :/ It had good moments but I couldn't get into it for some reason. I always benefit from hearing what others like about certain music


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> Some rock critics would have us believe that back in the 70s Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple were for the more cultured heavy rock fans and the likes of Grand Funk and Black Sabbath were for blue-collar oiks who liked things kept simple. Whether that's true or not it's of little consequence - Black Sabbath have arguably been the most influential of them all.


I don't agree with that. I've gone through all of Led Zepplein's albums (haven't heard any Deep Purple besides "Smoke on the Water" of course) and I think they were both equally good at what they did pretty much from what I've heard. Sure, Led Zeppelin were probably a little more diverse at the high point of their career than Black Sabbath, but Black Sabbath definitely was far from being a one trick pony band and they experimented with lots of different styles and were (for the most part) pretty successful in my opinion. Robert Plant was for sure the better vocalist on the technical side, but Ozzy's voice just had tons of personality even though it could be pretty ****** technically sometimes. Since it's Rock though, out of tune vocals can be forgiven much easier than Opera or something like that. Also, Black Sabbath had much better lyrics from the very beginning in my opinion. LZ's lyrics took a while to get good, in the beginning they were mostly just about relationships and ****ing girls and stuff like that. Black Sabbath hardly ever wrote lyrics that were quite that mundane (although they did write a lot about drug abuse, still more interesting than songs about ****ing in my opinion).


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

violadude said:


> I don't agree with that. I've gone through all of Led Zepplein's albums (haven't heard any Deep Purple besides "Smoke on the Water" of course) and I think they were both equally good at what they did pretty much from what I've heard. Sure, Led Zeppelin were probably a little more diverse at the high point of their career than Black Sabbath, but Black Sabbath definitely was far from being a one trick pony band and they experimented with lots of different styles and were (for the most part) pretty successful in my opinion. Robert Plant was for sure the better vocalist on the technical side, but Ozzy's voice just had tons of personality even though it could be pretty ****** technically sometimes. Since it's Rock though, out of tune vocals can be forgiven much easier than Opera or something like that. Also, Black Sabbath had much better lyrics from the very beginning in my opinion. LZ's lyrics took a while to get good, in the beginning they were mostly just about relationships and ****ing girls and stuff like that. Black Sabbath hardly ever wrote lyrics that were quite that mundane (although they did write a lot about drug abuse, still more interesting than songs about ****ing in my opinion).


I don't agree with it either, but that was indicative of the mindset of much of the early 70s press - they may like heavy music but they also wanted it to have a degree of sophistication but the raw sledgehammer style of (early) Grand Funk and Sabbath got far more critical brickbats. Conversely, Uriah Heep were a group who aspired to be sophisticated but they were slagged off mercilessly as being a watered-down Deep Purple. Essentially it was the fans that counted and the likelihood was that most heavy rock fans liked all of the 1st division groups in equal measure.

As regards Heaven & Hell, I remember thinking that with Ozzy gone Sabbath had two choices - get an Ozzy clone in and continue going down the cul-de-sac or get someone experienced who could bring in some fresh input and hopefully rejuvenate the band as well.

Dio basically brought his sword and sorcery lyric notebook from Rainbow and although Iommi still hammered out the trademark riffs the group, in response to Dio's more theatrical singing and lyrical style, collectively sounded more melodic than before, thanks also in no small part to an increased keyboard presence on some tracks. From the Dio era I think Neon Knights, Children of the Sea, The Sign of the Southern Cross, Heaven & Hell and Die Young can stand comfortably alongside the Ozzy-era material - it just sounds different.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've been hearing Black Sabbath for decades, but never really warmed to them. I remember Heaven & Hell when it was released back in 1980. Although I've never been much of a metal fan, I've always admired Dio's talent. Normally I don't like over the top, theatrical vocalists, but there was just something about Ronnie I liked. He's from a small town just 30 miles south of here that is basically known for nothing, except well... being known for producing metal's greatest vocalist.

I used to listen to Deep Purple's Made In Japan back in the day, but I never cared much for the vocalist. But the band was killing! And of course everybody listened to Led Zeppelin.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

Master of Reality, was the first album I ever bought
Still have it now nearly 40 years later
I only like the "Ozzy" years, think they lost it after that
Tony Iommi is a guitar legend


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Zeppelin did more pretentious mystic stuff and rambling/heartache blues lyrics than anything about drugs and banging groupies, didn't they? They struck me as one of those cartoon bands whose music is a whole lot more harmless than their real personalities.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I agree Sabbath is a legendary band, but I don't often listen to them, as I'm not much into metal. Now Zeppelin and Sabbath are two totally different styles of bands, but if one was going to compare them I think Zeppelin would inevitably come out on top, because they were much more diverse. They could rock hard, or play folk music or pure blues. If comparing across genres I don't think the greatest bands are generally considered metal bands for this reason. The style is too one dimensional. The best bands out there (imo) are the bands like Zeppelin that can do a wide range of styles well. The Beatles and Stones also do a wide range of styles well. I think musically The Smiths are up there with the greatest bands, but I find Morrissey's lyrics, while good, are always sarcastic and cynical. Aside from 'This Charming Man' they really don't have any actual happy songs. I think this lack of diversity in the lyrics are the one fault in The Smiths. 

I like artists that can cover a wide spectrum of human experience, from joy to pain to sadness, happiness, contentment, anger etc. I don't hear this wide range of feeling in Sabbath, (or any metal band for that matter). 

I do still occasionally like listening to some harder music like Sabbath and Megadeth, but for me a little goes a long way.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

But you can get your dosis of wide spectrum simply by listening to more than one artist... I'm not disputing your tastes but I don't think it really counts as a "fault".


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Swans are the worst offender ever.

They have one mode: suicidal


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Something must be wrong with me...so far I'm liking "Mob Rules" a lot more than "Heaven & Hell". I'll probably go back and listen to H&H again after this just to see if I appreciate it more since liking "Mob Rules".


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I liked Ozzy better in the 80's in his solo career. Blizzard of Ozz is one of the great albums imo. But Paranoid is pretty good for his Black Sabbath days.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Except for several classic hits, (Paranoid etc.) I generally not a fans of Black Sabbath. I respect them as 'pioneer' in heavy metal / doom though. I more favor their vocalist's solos, especially DIO, I like Holy Diver very much.

The '90s era of Black Sabbath album I like is Dehumanizer. And I think their latest album '13' is an okay album.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

War Pigs
very powerful message, only watch the video if you can accept the reality and futility of war


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> I'm listening to all their albums right now. So I want to know what TC generally thinks about their music? What's your favorite? Least favorite? Whatever else comes up?


I bought the 2016 remasters of the first five albums. All but Vol.4 sound great to my ears. That album is hit and miss on the sound. Some of the tracks feel like they have too much of a bass boost. Ozzy is my least favorite element of this group. But I dig the trio of guitar, bass, and drums. I love the old school hard rock recorded on analog equipment. These remasters don't sound overly bright or compressed so I give them a thumbs up. Very good clarity and detail too.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

elgar's ghost said:


> ... the likes of Grand Funk and Black Sabbath were for blue-collar oiks who liked things kept simple.


This was my view at the time (and pretty much still is). GFR's success was baffling, though in retrospect I suppose it shouldn't have been. No one I knew would've been caught dead with a GFR or BS album (and nothing of Deep Purple's after the first three). Yeah, we were hipper-than-thou snobs!


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Always like Volume IV Album


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Black Sabbath is in my heart forever, kind of like Mozart. I can cry to War Pigs and Lacrimosa...


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Sabotage has long been my favorite album. Ironic considering the spirit and intent of the album was disparaging their management at the time.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

violadude said:


> Can someone tell me what they like about "Heaven and Hell"? I listened to it for the first time about an hour ago but I didn't like it that much overall :/ It had good moments but I couldn't get into it for some reason. I always benefit from hearing what others like about certain music


Ive never seen it either. I don't view any non-Ozzy album as Sabbath. Heaven And Hell has two fine heavy Rainbow tracks on it (H&H, Neon Knights) but the rest is tired, clichéd, predictable pish. Dio, to me, was possibly the most overrated rock vocalist ever. Saw him twice (once with Sabbath and once on his own) and he was just a decent rock vocalist but no more. His stage presence was pathetic. Having seen Sabath on the Never Say Die tour in Manchester (with VH supporting) , Dio and Sabbath on the H&H tour and Ozzy twice on the first Blizzard tour I can tell you that Dio and Sabbath on the H&H tour were by far the worst. Dio was so bitter about that tour and I did laugh at him getting really ratty with the fans in Manc cos they were shouting "Ozzy, Ozzy" all through the gig. Yeah, I know I love Ozzy era Sabbath but I love Ozzus voice. He's not a great singer but his voice is distinctive. They were my first love and I still play those first 6 albums regularly to this day. As far as Technical Ecstacy is concerned I still like that album too ( but obviously not as much as the first 6} and half of Never Say Die (Juniors Eyes is a great track). As a comeback album 13 was a decent album too (but rather safe). Even so it was still way better than the dreck Iommi and his cohorts churned out in the 80s and 90s. For me the lowest points were that dire album they did with Gillan, the Reading performance I endured with Gillan in 83 (their crapness nearly reduced me to tears) or that diabolical embarrassment 'Forbidden'.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I just listened to Mob Rules and Iommi's playing is great throughout. But a whole album of Dio's singing is a bit much. I can take him for about two numbers but then I need a break. But mostly with this band I like the musicians.


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