# Beethoven - The Tempest Sonata - Adagio



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I was just listening to the Adagio of Beethoven's The Tempest sonata






and it reminded me of two other pieces of music:

1. 



 (Flinstones theme music) - similar to the melody heard from 1:59 to 2:27 in the Adagio.

2. 



 (Haydn's Sonata 58 - the beginning phrase is similar, especially the chord change at 0:04-0:05, and also the way it recurs throughout)


----------



## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Yeah, so basically Beethoven ripped off Flintstones theme music? 

Best regards, Dr


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

It's hilarious how all of modern music can be found 'somewhere' among the great composers of the past .


----------



## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Actually, the Wikipedia page of The Flintstones says that the theme music used the melody from Beethoven's Sonata. 

Best regards, Dr


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

DrKilroy said:


> Actually, the Wikipedia page of The Flintstones says that the theme music used the melody from Beethoven's Sonata.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Hehe, excellent. It's all a conspiracy - the greats want us to link all the musical puzzle pieces together .


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DrKilroy said:


> Actually, the Wikipedia page of The Flintstones says that the theme music used the melody from Beethoven's Sonata.


I liked your first explanation better. Plagiarism in advance! Even the gentle Mendelssohn could stoop to this, as when, for the opening of his overture to Elijah, he totally ripped off the "Jaws" theme.


----------



## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I think Beethoven would be amused by the knowledge it had been used in The Flintstones. The Haydn has several sequences where the harmonics are similar, but that I think considering Beethoven's genius is a pure coincidence or had somehow had that etched into his memory from playing Haydn's sonatas at sometime.
Was listening to an old recording of this particular movement the other day (Wilhelm Kempff) was so overwhelmed by its mystery and in awe of this pianist who almost managed to penetrate it: but rest assured it remains all Beethoven!


----------



## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

Beethoven must have stolen the theme from the Flintstones. The stone age predates Beethoven by thousands of years.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Alydon said:


> I think Beethoven would be amused by the knowledge it had been used in The Flintstones. The Haydn has several sequences where the harmonics are similar, but that I think considering Beethoven's genius is a pure coincidence or had somehow had that etched into his memory from playing Haydn's sonatas at sometime.
> Was listening to an old recording of this particular movement the other day (Wilhelm Kempff) was so overwhelmed by its mystery and in awe of this pianist who almost managed to penetrate it: but rest assured it remains all Beethoven!


Hehe, well, don't underestimate the virtue in 'starting with a good template' - composers constantly borrowed ideas from one another, that's a normal process.


----------



## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

All composers learnt from all that was before them, but just going back to the 'Tempest's' slow movement, having just listened again this has a magisterial quality which stands alone - Haydn's was great music but Beethoven's is art.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Alydon said:


> All composers learnt from all that was before them, but just going back to the 'Tempest's' slow movement, having just listened again this has a magisterial quality which stands alone - Haydn's was great music but Beethoven's is art.


Well, Haydn's music is also art. They have a different focus. Haydn's is more cheerful, the Beethoven more melancholic and profound, it depends on what you want from the piece. Some of my favourite slow movements in Haydn sonatas are the adagio of sonata no. 60, the largo from sonata no. 37, the adagio from sonata no. 38 and the one from sonata no. 47:










 (at 6:16)





 (at 07:00)






I think these are masterpieces.


----------



## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Agreed, Haydn's music is genius as well and hold him as high esteem as LVB & without Haydn Beethoven could not have moved the art of music forward - ever get depressed put on the London Symphonies and all is resolved.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Alydon said:


> Agreed, Haydn's music is genius as well and hold him as high esteem as LVB & without Haydn Beethoven could not have moved the art of music forward - ever get depressed put on the London Symphonies and all is resolved.


Indeed, the London symphonies are what got me into classical music. Beethoven's excellent too, of course. It's all a matter of taste in the end, hehe.


----------



## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

Somehow great music like this seems to me at once to be entirely sure-footed, yet completely spontaneous and improvised.

How do they _do_ that?

Thanks for posting this. I will pay more attention to this sonata now.

- Bill


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BillT said:


> How do they _do_ that?


That's the great Beethoven question all right. If you ever figure out the answer, be sure to let us know!


----------



## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

KenOC said:


> That's the great Beethoven question all right. If you ever figure out the answer, be sure to let us know!


Is it really? Others have noticed this and commented upon it? -- Specific to LVB?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

BillT said:


> Somehow great music like this seems to me at once to be entirely sure-footed, yet completely spontaneous and improvised.
> 
> How do they _do_ that?


A combination of the unexpected and expected, usually mixed together, and always in unpredictable ways.

Remember that Beethoven was, like a number of other great composers, also excellent at improvisation.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Well that's just great. Now I'll never hear this sonata the same way again.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BillT said:


> Is it really? Others have noticed this and commented upon it? -- Specific to LVB?


Well, it's *my* great Beethoven question! Though I'm sure others must have asked it (as you did). About the only time I ask this question is in a lot of Beethoven and almost all of Bach.


----------



## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

Yes, I was noticing it in the Bach cello sonatas as well. And, as you say, even more so, if that's possible.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> A combination of the unexpected and expected, usually mixed together, and always in unpredictable ways.
> 
> Remember that Beethoven was, like a number of other great composers, also excellent at improvisation.


I think it depends on the compositional method of the composer. Haydn, for example, composed by improvising until he found an idea he liked, and then he went on to develop it. I sense that Beethoven might also have composed like this, since his compositions often remind me of how Haydn composed. He definitely focused on 'developing themes', much like Haydn did.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From a published 1799 review of Beethoven's improvisation: "He shows himself to best advantage in free improvisation. And here the lightness and at the same time firmness in the sequence of his ideas is really quite extraordinary. B. instantly varies every theme, and not only in its figures. Since the death of Mozart who will always remain the non plus ultra in this, I have never found this kind of pleasure to the degree with which B. provides it."


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> From a published 1799 review of Beethoven's improvisation: "He shows himself to best advantage in free improvisation. And here the lightness and at the same time firmness in the sequence of his ideas is really quite extraordinary. B. instantly varies every theme, and not only in its figures. Since the death of Mozart who will always remain the non plus ultra in this, I have never found this kind of pleasure to the degree with which B. provides it."


Ah, interesting. I think Bach, Händel and Scarlatti were also improvisational gurus .


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2013)

I wish Kempff would just get on and play the blessed piece!


----------

