# Good modern singer???



## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Thoughts on this guy? I'd especially love to hear thoughts from people who primarily listen to very old, very dead singers.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Brushing past your sarcasm I would say I’ve heard worse. He has a tendency to go slightly flat when he pushes the top notes but apart from that he’s not too shabby. IMHO of course!😎


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

PaulFranz said:


> Thoughts on this guy? I'd especially love to hear thoughts from people who primarily listen to very old, very dead singers.


They cease to be old when my turntable brings them alive for me LOL.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

It took a while for my ears to adjust to the acoustic, but once past that, yes, there are some good things here.

His Italian is somewhat good and clear (but there's something not quite right about where the vowels sit and I'm not sure what is going on there). The voice seems large (but he can also sing quietly well too). 

I feel he could give a bit more (it has the air of 'rehearsal' about it rather than being a performance, not sure whether it was or not of course).

As Barbebleu has pointed out a couple of the high notes are off. (There's one that is far too bright in my opinion and more chest voice is needed in the mix.)

I would certainly like to hear more from him, but this performance alone doesn't really sell him to me.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I saw him as Posi in Don Carlos and discovered a new and superb baritone. And yes, he can hold his own admirably in my book with the old and gold clan. He's here to stay and we are the winners.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Here to stay as long as his voice holds out. The danger, as for all current singers is early burnout by plying their trade hither and thither cashing in while they can. Who can blame them though.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I am not one of the "old is gold" crew - although I DO love and admire the old greats!!! When I listened and heard that this voice had a call for me I decided not to watch and just listen.On one hearing, I think this is a bonafide GREAT Il Balen!

To my ear, his voice is gorgeous and his production is even. Just enough burr on the voice and legato for days. In contests I never read other opinions first but I was wandering around and in this case read a few. I heard about flat notes but I think for me they fall into the "continuing to achieve the pitch" category that comes more often with singers who sing with lots of legato....Carlo Bergonzi falls into this category at times.

But interpretively I found that he sailed that fine line in which others have succumbed to precious line readings. I felt he did not by insisting on staying on the musical line. The beautiful softening into one of the "...l'amore ond'ardo" 's was something I don't remember hearing, was gorgeously executed and perfect for the character!

I am going to listen one more time before posting my rave.... ok I'm guessing the pitchiness was more about some lower lying phrases but nothing really subtracted for me and the guy acts it beautifully.

I'd go hear him tomorrow! Great post.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I'm curious to hear Bonetan and Balalaika Boy's take on this voice!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

How about Alan Clayton? I have seen good things about his performances but not that much about his singing technique.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I am not one of the "old is gold" crew - although I DO love and admire the old greats!!! When I listened and heard that this voice had a call for me I decided not to watch and just listen.On one hearing, I think this is a bonafide GREAT Il Balen!
> 
> To my ear, his voice is gorgeous and his production is even. Just enough burr on the voice and legato for days. In contests I never read other opinions first but I was wandering around and in this case read a few. I heard about flat notes but I think for me they fall into the "continuing to achieve the pitch" category that comes more often with singers who sing with lots of legato....Carlo Bergonzi falls into this category at times.
> 
> ...


This post reminds me of early Sondra Radvanovsky (now admittedly by many "The Queen of Sopranos" at the Met) because she had intonation problems and was excoriated more than once for her less than beautiful sound. Well, she worked and studied and came up a true winner. I have the same feelings for Etienne Dupius.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

His artistry is unrefined but his voice is of a much higher standard than the usual these days. Its far from perfect but it does open up with real squillo. The top notes have a slower vibrato, some coordination issues and intonation issues but the middle voice is well vocused and projected. It's not a voice to rival such great past baritones as Batistinni, Ruffo, Galeffi, Basiola, Taddei, Bastianini etc. but its not a voice I would actively avoid hearing and imagine he could be quite effective in theatre. Definitely plenty of potential.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

I must say that I do not hear the intonation issues or any problems at all with the top, and I am a full-time Master Hater of modern singing. Would anyone be so kind as to point out exactly where they hear such technical flaws?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Not really. That would require me listening to it again and taking notes. Those days are long gone. 😏


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

PaulFranz said:


> I must say that I do not hear the intonation issues or any problems at all with the top, and I am a full-time Master Hater of modern singing. Would anyone be so kind as to point out exactly where they hear such technical flaws?


The first top F has a slow vibrato, as does the top G which also seems just a little flat to me. The top of the voice in general (above a D) seems to expend more effort than would be ideal. But these are not major sins and he is undoubtedly one of the best baritones I have heard in recent years.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Compare to my favourite modern baritone who is much more refined.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> I must say that I do not hear the intonation issues or any problems at all with the top, and I am a full-time Master Hater of modern singing. Would anyone be so kind as to point out exactly where they hear such technical flaws?


I'd already written what I wrote before my second hearing so I didn't go back and edit. In the upper register there is nothing I'd call an intonation problem to me. He's on it. My college years of hearing about my flat singing left me with a penchant to doubt my ear on pitch.

Didn't want to start a new post but I have to say I don't get the "unrefined" "rehearsal" observations. To me this guy is bringing it with artistry!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Becca said:


> How about Alan Clayton? I have seen good things about his performances but not that much about his singing technique.


I have observations but don't want to pull this away from Dupuis. Start a thread Becca!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Compare to my favourite modern baritone who is much more refined.


They are both making a pretty poor argument for how bad the modern singer is! 

I'm taken with how similar they are to each other. I agree Petti is artistic and also that he has a gorgeous voice. I don't hear him being artistically in a different league from Dupuis. Both place great emphasis on legato and make their points within the flow of the musical line. 

Are either of these guys at the Met? I don't recognize either name.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It sounds as if he's singing in an enormous bathroom, so it's tempting to withhold judgment. There are things I think I'm hearing but can't be sure, and often God is in the details. But, right off, I hear him giving notes individual emphasis rather than sustaining a legato line: "il...ba ...len..." There are discontinuities of volume that have no musical purpose. Resonance seems to disappear at low volume. I hear him making a vocal adjustment at the top, and I doubt that he could sing softly up there. Some of his phrase ends make me wonder if he's short of breath. The performance as a whole feels hectoring rather than lyrical.

A good instrument, I'd guess, but unfinished technically and musically, the latter depending greatly on the former.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It sounds as if he's singing in an enormous bathroom, so it's tempting to withhold judgment. There are things I think I'm hearing but can't be sure, and often God is in the details. But, right off, I hear him giving notes individual emphasis rather than sustaining a legato line: "il...ba ...len..." There are discontinuities of volume that have no musical purpose. Resonance seems to disappear at low volume. I hear him making a vocal adjustment at the top, and I doubt that he could sing softly up there. Some of his phrase ends make me wonder if he's short of breath. The performance as a whole feels hectoring rather than lyrical.
> 
> A good instrument, I'd guess, but unfinished technically and musically, the latter depending greatly on the former.


Agreed with all of this. His vibrato is not always consistent too. A better voice than most modern performers but an unfinished artist.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Op.123 said:


> Compare to my favourite modern baritone who is much more refined.


Ok, now here I do hear intonation problems ("coraggio"), and the whole upper range sounds throaty and squeezed. I hear him touted quite often as the best the moderns have to offer, and I don't buy it. It sounds manufactured. He has wonderful talent and a wonderful instrument, but I don't buy that technique at all.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

PaulFranz said:


> Ok, now here I do hear intonation problems ("coraggio"), and the whole upper range sounds throaty and squeezed. I hear him touted quite often as the best the moderns have to offer, and I don't buy it. It sounds manufactured. He has wonderful talent and a wonderful instrument, but I don't buy that technique at all.


The basic instrument is maybe not as free and ringing, and can be a little throaty especially at lower volumes, but the voice is a good one, if not a perfect one, and I find his voice more consistent, his legato far better, vibrato more regular, breath more controlled etc. Both are good but I prefer Petti. Dupuis has the potential to outdo him with sheer voice if he improves musically. Admittedly there are clips of Petti where I don’t find him nearly as persuasive.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> They are both making a pretty poor argument for how bad the modern singer is!
> 
> I'm taken with how similar they are to each other. I agree Petti is artistic and also that he has a gorgeous voice. I don't hear him being artistically in a different league from Dupuis. Both place great emphasis on legato and make their points within the flow of the musical line.
> 
> Are either of these guys at the Met? I don't recognize either name.


We can't hear this guy very well. He sounds effortful to me. But most baritones do in this apparently simple aria. Verdi asks everything of a singer and exposes his every flaw.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

If we compare his rendition to the exceptional openness and naturalness of this one you can see where his technical failings are, although it is nice to here a baritone with some of the same ring to his sound. Unfortunately even good singers these days don't seem to have the technique to last. I listened to a recent excerpt of Saioa Hernandez in Tosca and it was horrible. A real shame.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I just listened to Tagliabue and these are to my ears just three fantastic Il Balens. By the time I've listened to the various comments I'm having trouble knowing who is being referred to with which comment.

My takeaways, without any going back to re-listen. I find them all very much in the same league IF these sounds are representative. I hear alot of conjecture about will they last, and of course its a real concern, but that is not for this discussion. I hear talk about effort in the upper register but to put it in perspective....over on SFO's contest Fabiano, to me, truly has difficulty with his upper register. I heard nothing like that here. The one intonation problem I definitely heard was not up high....Petti, in some early phrase had a definite flat note. Tagliabue's production was probably the most perfect but I cannot agree that the other two sounded like developing singers. I thought they were invested and beautiful. I know Woodduck's observations are on the money, either by remembering hearing it or trusting him. But the overall strongest impression made on me was by Depuis who,I felt, was more invested phrase by phrase than Tagliabue and had a more consistent production of his gorgeous voice - after the first phrases - than Petti. But all are great!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It sounds as if he's singing in an enormous bathroom, so it's tempting to withhold judgment. There are things I think I'm hearing but can't be sure, and often God is in the details. But, right off, I hear him giving notes individual emphasis rather than sustaining a legato line: "il...ba ...len..." There are discontinuities of volume that have no musical purpose. Resonance seems to disappear at low volume. I hear him making a vocal adjustment at the top, and I doubt that he could sing softly up there. Some of his phrase ends make me wonder if he's short of breath. The performance as a whole feels hectoring rather than lyrical.
> 
> A good instrument, I'd guess, but unfinished technically and musically, the latter depending greatly on the former.


More or less my thoughts. There is some good potential. Reasonably open, nice top, but he uses the modern "come off of support and core the moment he sings below mezzo forte" school of singing. He would be better off just singing the whole thing at the same dynamic, as dynamics are secondary to base level voice production.

Reminds me of a similar comment where I said "sounds a bit like if Jerry Hadley only half way developed his voice", but replace Jerry Hadley with, say, Tito Gobbi. Where most singers today have _zero_ core, he has maybe 25% of what would be optimal.


Edit: I have heard _maybe_ a dozen male singers who could sing softly near the top of their range. Even with female singers, that's extra gravy for me, not something I consider part of the fundamentals (not you specifically, but some people listen to too much Nilsson and Caballe and think this is normal haha).


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

ScottK said:


> I'm curious to hear Bonetan and Balalaika Boy's take on this voice!


Better get the headphones...

I keep typing a bunch of nonsense when all I really want to say is listen to Tagliabue. This is just not that. However this is top tier for what we have in 2022. I think it's a relatively well-used voice, but that it's not a special one.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> If we compare his rendition to the exceptional openness and naturalness of this one you can see where his technical failings are, although it is nice to here a baritone with some of the same ring to his sound. Unfortunately even good singers these days don't seem to have the technique to last. I listened to a recent excerpt of Saioa Hernandez in Tosca and it was horrible. A real shame.


That was is easy to explain: when you're the only soprano on the block with solid technique, the temptation is to sing all the soprano rep under the sun and burn yourself out. I think it's a combination of being over-booked and stretching the voice in too many directions too quickly.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

That's long been the only Tagliabue recording I enjoy. Otherwise I find him wobbly and uneven. That aria just makes everyone sound good. It's a beaut. I have over 30 examples in my collection. Still waiting for Battistini's corpse to sit up and bang one out.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

PaulFranz said:


> That's long been the only Tagliabue recording I enjoy. Otherwise I find him wobbly and uneven. That aria just makes everyone sound good. It's a beaut. I have over 30 examples in my collection. Still waiting for Battistini's corpse to sit up and bang one out.


Tagliabue was an exceptional baritone. He made a lot of recordings in the early 50s when he was past his prime, I can still enjoy them but they dont represent him at his best. In his prime he was wonderful.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Bonetan said:


> Better get the headphones...
> 
> I keep typing a bunch of nonsense when all I really want to say is listen to Tagliabue. This is just not that. However this is top tier for what we have in 2022. I think it's a relatively well-used voice, but that it's not a special one.


Wouldn't have minded hearing some of that nonsense but I know where you are. I've taken the garden shears to a few of my entries in the past!!!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Reminds me of a similar comment where I said "sounds a bit like if Jerry Hadley only half way developed his voice", but replace Jerry Hadley with, say, Tito Gobbi. Where most singers today have _zero_ core, he has maybe 25% of what would be optimal.
[/QUOTE]

That was the take I wanted to hear your opinion on . Can't say I expected Gobbi as your "core" reference but I am glad you find Dupuis veering in the right direction. I think he sounds beautiful.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

and so it doesn't sound like I'm giving the moderns a free pass I tracked down Kelseys Il Balen. The production of the sound was not in the class with anything played here.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> and so it doesn't sound like I'm giving the moderns a free pass I tracked down Kelseys Il Balen. The production of the sound was not in the class with anything played here.


So the likes of Hvorostovsky and Merrill are chopped liver?
I'm glad I don't know very much about singers and their flaws. I sure get much more enjoyment that way. Lucky me.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> So the likes of Hvorostovsky and Merrill are chopped liver?
> I'm glad I don't know very much about singers and their flaws. I sure get much more enjoyment that way. Lucky me.


I'm a BIG fan of both Hvorostovsky and Merrill!!! And I think you are indeed on to something Ms. Nina!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> So the likes of Hvorostovsky and Merrill are chopped liver?
> I'm glad I don't know very much about singers and their flaws. I sure get much more enjoyment that way. Lucky me.


Hvorostovsky may still qualify as "modern," but Merrill? If Merrill is a modern singer I'm going to feel a lot more modern when I look in the mirror.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Hvorostovsky may still qualify as "modern," but Merrill? If Merrill is a modern singer I'm going to feel a lot more modern when I look in the mirror.


You'll always be a young Tito Schipa to most of us!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> You'll always be a young Tito Schipa to most of us!!!


I wish I had his voice. Failing that, I'll settle for the eyes and the hair.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Hvorostovsky in the second half of his career produced some of the worst singing I've ever heard from a principal baritone.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> Hvorostovsky in the second half of his career produced some of the worst singing I've ever heard from a principal baritone.


Play one, not being facetious...want to hear what you consider terrible.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PaulFranz said:


> Hvorostovsky in the second half of his career produced some of the worst singing I've ever heard from a principal baritone.


I presume then that you've missed almost every well-known baritone since his death.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I presume then that you've missed almost every well-known baritone since his death.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

ScottK said:


> Play one, not being facetious...want to hear what you consider terrible.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

okay not good. Interpretively, all laid on top and decidedly unmoving. Tight tone, wobbly tone in different places. Not sounding particularly resonant.
BUTTTT.....its pretty much what Woodduck said....the Met has featured Lucic and Gagnidze as their star Verdi baritones and they have so much less god given voice. Kelsey has less voice.

I know, Bonetan thinks he's in the Kaufman style of production and therefore, forever damned. That part does not bother me, it's just different. The thing for me that keeps him from that bottom shelf you put him on is that so much of the time he is still delivering, what I would call a star sound.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PaulFranz said:


>


The worse for wear, but still better than Lucic, Kelsey, Terfel...


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The worse for wear, but still better than Lucic, Kelsey, Terfel...


by the time you get to singers like that it’s best for your sanity to pretend they don’t exist


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

ScottK said:


> That was the take I wanted to hear your opinion on . Can't say I expected Gobbi as your "core" reference but I am glad you find Dupuis veering in the right direction. I think he sounds beautiful.


Looking back on it, maybe more like "if Ettore Bastianini only halfway developed his voice", as both are on the higher end of baritone. Bastianini has points that make me thing "hmm, maybe he could have been a good tenor"...and then he goes down to the bottom third of his range, leaving me like "nah, definitely baritone". Gobbi, by contrast, sounds baritonal from bottom to top.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The worse for wear, but still better than Lucic, Kelsey, Terfel...


Indeed, Hvorostovsky is vastly preferable to all of these.
I know we don't tend to agree on just how much to use the fach system, but Bryn Terfel has no power in the bottom half of his range. He is supposed to be a "bass-baritone", but every famous baritone on record from 1970 and before has a bigger, darker voice than him with much easier sounding low notes. That would be like a woman saying "I'm a soprano with 20 years performance experience, but I struggle with any notes above F#4". 

We can set aside hyper-specific debates about whether someone singing Lady Macbeth is a Wagnerian soprano vs a falcon vs a dramatic coloratura soprano, etc, but, to be blunt, a lot of modern singers need to hear "Why the hell are you singing that? That is not *remotely *right for your voice and it's obvious in like 5 seconds". Terfel is one such example.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I know we don't tend to agree on just how much to use the fach system, but Bryn Terfel has no power in the bottom half of his range. He is supposed to be a "bass-baritone", but every famous baritone on record from 1970 and before has a bigger, darker voice than him with much easier sounding low notes. That would be like a woman saying "I'm a soprano with 20 years performance experience, but I struggle with any notes above F#4".
> 
> a lot of modern singers need to hear "Why the hell are you singing that? That is not *remotely *right for your voice and it's obvious in like 5 seconds". Terfel is one such example.


Terfel is just one of many singers who got tired of working within the natural limits of a very attractive voice. He was never a bass-baritone. I have and enjoy some of his early recordings.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> I saw him as Posi in Don Carlos and discovered a new and superb baritone. And yes, he can hold his own admirably in my book with the old and gold clan. He's here to stay and we are the winners.


Was that at the Met in the 5 act French Don Carlo? Where he was Carlo's boyfriend?


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Amber Wagner is definitely hearing if you get the chance. I heard her as Aida and Turandot. The Aida was amazing. Huge voice that's gorgeous and warm. She got great reviews for a Sieglinde she sang a few years back. Also, she recently sang Brangaine and sang the Isolde off the stage.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Terfel is just one of many singers who got tired of working within the natural limits of a very attractive voice. He was never a bass-baritone. I have and enjoy some of his early recordings.


I’ve been set to hear him a number of times - Scarpia, Dutchman- that he didn’t make. Rheingold Wotan was my one and disappointing... sounded small. Wish I’d heard his Figaro early on.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Terfel. A good Verdi voice wrecked by tackling Wagner rôles for which he didn’t have the voice.😏


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Terfel. A good Verdi voice wrecked by tackling Wagner rôles for which he didn’t have the voice.😏


He never had a good Verdi voice. If he did, Wagner wouldn’t be too much of a problem, both composers require a very solid technique.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I know we don't tend to agree on just how much to use the fach system, but Bryn Terfel has no power in the bottom half of his range. He is supposed to be a "bass-baritone", but every famous baritone on record from 1970 and before has a bigger, darker voice than him with much easier sounding low notes. That would be like a woman saying "I'm a soprano with 20 years performance experience, but I struggle with any notes above F#4".
> 
> We can set aside hyper-specific debates about whether someone singing Lady Macbeth is a Wagnerian soprano vs a falcon vs a dramatic coloratura soprano, etc, but, to be blunt, a lot of modern singers need to hear "Why the hell are you singing that? That is not *remotely *right for your voice and it's obvious in like 5 seconds". Terfel is one such example.





Woodduck said:


> Terfel is just one of many singers who got tired of working within the natural limits of a very attractive voice. He was never a bass-baritone. I have and enjoy some of his early recordings.





I find that people in the online circles that are very disappointed in modern singing tend to exaggerate their criticisms of repertoire choice. Every tenor is a leggero, every baritone is a lyric tenor, and every bass is a high lyric crossover baritenor.

I don't usually agree. Professional singers usually have a good idea of where their voice lies most comfortably--what their top limit is, what kind of tessitura they can navigate, where their registration points are, etc. Yes, these things change with training, but not after a couple of years. These aren't untrained yokels wandering onto the stage. They're just singing badly.

Singing badly gives the impression of smallness, of tightness, of whiteness. Compared to a baritone, a tenor is _relatively _small, tight, and white, so when these people hear bad baritones, they think "tenor!" I just think "bad baritone."

When I hear young Terfel, I hear a slightly modern style that means it's missing some _metallo_, but it's still clearly rich and firm enough in the lower parts to tell me that he isn't cut out for high-lying Italian and French mainstream baritone rep. There have always been baritones like this (lots of crossover in French and Russian rep)...so what do they sing? They sing a mixture of high-bass rep and low-baritone rep, and nowadays are called "bass-baritones," a term I absolutely DESPISE (because it's mostly applied to basses, who before the modern period were known as "basses"). It's especially deleterious for them because it's become more and more common for basses to sing anything they can reach, so these lower baritones are compared to them.

So unless they build up a wicked high extension (Charles Cambon, Giuseppe Bellantoni, Vincenzo Guicciardi), they're stuck singing Mozart-Figaro, Don Giovanni, Wagner _hoher Bass/Heldenbariton _roles, Golaud, Rachmaninov-Sal'jeri, Prince Igor', etc. And they get told they're not real bass-baritones.

Some high-lying "low baritones": Cambon, Bellantoni, Bacquier, Nissen, Stamler, Maurel, Lassalle, Formichi, Santley, Bispham, maybe Albers, and probably Nelson Eddy too, despite the timbre.

Some high-as-**** baritones that are still baritones: Battistini, Crabbé, Galeffi, Endrèze, Weede, Schlusnus


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> He never had a good Verdi voice. If he did, Wagner wouldn’t be too much of a problem, both composers require a very solid technique.


So what was his repertoire , in your opinion?🤔


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> So what was his repertoire , in your opinion?🤔


I’d have to hear his voice properly trained first in order to tell


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Not too shabby a career for an ‘untrained’ voice. But give me your best guess.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Looking back on it, maybe more like "if Ettore Bastianini only halfway developed his voice", as both are on the higher end of baritone. Bastianini has points that make me thing "hmm, maybe he could have been a good tenor"...and then he goes down to the bottom third of his range, leaving me like "nah, definitely baritone". Gobbi, by contrast, sounds baritonal from bottom to top.


That’s fun because I think Bastianini started as a bass!!


Op.123 said:


> I’d have to hear his voice properly trained first in order to tell





Op.123 said:


> I’d have to hear his voice properly trained first in order to tell


I think about voice a lot but not in as much detail as a number of you do . And agree or disagree I do like hearing what you have to say very very much. For Terfel, the Verdi role I always thought he’d be right for, since it’s not extremely high, It’s quite lyrical and he has the right presence for it, is Bocanegra. Maybe he sang it for you Englishsters???


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> I find that people in the online circles that are very disappointed in modern singing tend to exaggerate their criticisms of repertoire choice. Professional singers usually have a good idea of where their voice lies most comfortably.......These aren't untrained yokels wandering onto the stage. They're just singing badly.


I think the professional demands of making a career and of agents come into play in a major way. In an opera news article a ways back some Singer I thought was quite considerable made the statement of how very few in the business get to the point of making the kind of income you’d want to have. I was surprised to hear it coming from her… Can’t remember who she was. So, often they may just be thinking it’s Necessary if I want to have a career.

When I got to The University of Connecticut Jerry Hadley was a teacher and had a gorgeous and extremely lyric voice. The next time I heard him was on TV on a Pavarotti and friends thing and I couldn’t believe how the voice had thickened. Now I liked the earlier sound much much more but I’m sure that thickening had a good deal to do with him becoming Jerry Hadley, poor guy, God rest his soul.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> okay not good. Interpretively, all laid on top and decidedly unmoving. Tight tone, wobbly tone in different places. Not sounding particularly resonant.
> BUTTTT.....its pretty much what Woodduck said....the Met has featured Lucic and Gagnidze as their star Verdi baritones and they have so much less god given voice. Kelsey has less voice.
> 
> I know, Bonetan thinks he's in the Kaufman style of production and therefore, forever damned. That part does not bother me, it's just different. The thing for me that keeps him from that bottom shelf you put him on is that so much of the time he is still delivering, what I would call a star sound.


I just KNEW he would have picked that one. That was like asking a Callas disser to show an example of her singing and they come up with the very last aria she ever sang.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

damianjb1 said:


> Was that at the Met in the 5 act French Don Carlo? Where he was Carlo's boyfriend?


Why is that so important to you? Does it change anything? And it's Don Carlos (not Carlo)


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Not too shabby a career for an ‘untrained’ voice. But give me your best guess.


If he trained his voice properly he might well have been a good baritone, I don't think he'd have been a particularly low baritone nor a particularly high one.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

nina foresti said:


> I just KNEW he would have picked that one. That was like asking a Callas disser to show an example of her singing and they come up with the very last aria she ever sang.







There's another absolute 0 for ya.

Or I guess I could pick one from earlier in his career...






Hate it. Terrible. Sounds (and looks!) like he's singing through a down pillow.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

*UGH!*


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Terfel is just one of many singers who got tired of working within the natural limits of a very attractive voice. He was never a bass-baritone. I have and enjoy some of his early recordings.


Speaking of early Bryn Terfel, it would be one of the biggest vocal transformations in operatic history if this sweet little voice somehow dropped down into bass-baritone territory (he is about 18 here).







Sure, he did go through a period from the mid 90s where he sounded a bit more baritonal for about a decade or so, but the most I would grant him would be the type of voice to sing the title role in Barbiere, in additional to he already very light Mozart rep he started with. Trying to go after roles like Wotan, Mephistopheles or Boris Godunov?....utterly ridiculous choice of rep.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Speaking of early Bryn Terfel, it would be one of the biggest vocal transformations in operatic history if this sweet little voice somehow dropped down into bass-baritone territory (he is about 18 here).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good grief! I wouldn't know him in that video. The young - but slightly older - Terfel made at least one wonderful collection of English song. That's the authentic Bryn.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> There's another absolute 0 for ya.
> 
> Or I guess I could pick one from earlier in his career...
> 
> ...


I listened to the earlier one. No wobble, nothing tight sounding, resonant and the interpretation is in the music. I think you just despise that method of voice production. Fair enough. Tibbet's richness is direct and this comes out of that distracting position. I prefer the Tibbet approach. And I'll add that I heard Hvorostovsky's DiLuna sitting upstairs and it did not have nearly as much impact as his Posa downstairs and I'm sure that speaks to what you prefer. But mic'd close like this, I think that Il Balen is gorgeous!!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

PaulFranz said:


> There's another absolute 0 for ya.
> 
> Or I guess I could pick one from earlier in his career...
> 
> ...


It's an unnatural sound, artificially dark, effortful, and detrimental to vocal longevity. We praise singers who produce sound in this way and as a result we get young baritones thinking this is the example to follow. The sorry state of low voices is no surprise. If we want great singing we have to call bad singing what it is. We can't complain about the state of things if we applaud this.

I was talking to a young baritone this weekend and I asked him who his favorite baritone of all time was. He said Hvorostovsky. Guess who he tries to sing like...


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> We can't hear this guy very well. He sounds effortful to me. But most baritones do in this apparently simple aria. Verdi asks everything of a singer and exposes his every flaw.


In all of these singers defense I just want to add that this is probably the most difficult Verdi baritone aria. Towards the end especially.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I want to prove that there _are_ still people around who sing like this, so I will use a more modern recording this time.  

There are times when the singer in the OP comes off overly delicate in a way that feels off to me. He needs a little more _umph, _a little more of _this _in the voice. It's supposed to be a romantic piece, so not _quite _that much, but need less "sensitive lover boy" and more "bold, smooth and sexy". 

(note: this isn't an opera singer, or even an operatic piece but his technique would more than pass for operatic compared to most modern opera houses. It's a good illustration of more of what this guy needs).


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> It's an unnatural sound, artificially dark, effortful, and detrimental to vocal longevity. We praise singers who produce sound in this way and as a result we get young baritones thinking this is the example to follow. The sorry state of low voices is no surprise. If we want great singing we have to call bad singing what it is. We can't complain about the state of things if we applaud this.
> 
> I was talking to a young baritone this weekend and I asked him who his favorite baritone of all time was. He said Hvorostovsky. Guess who he tries to sing like...


The way I hear it is that Hvorotovsky has resonance in the larynx that people pick up on, but no resonance in the pharynx which is just as important and amplifies a voice far more.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Op.123 said:


> The way I hear it is that Hvorotovsky has resonance in the larynx that people pick up on, but no resonance in the pharynx which is just as important and amplifies a voice far more.


If you've ever watched someone screaming as they are beheaded, then you have observed the phenomenon of laryngeal sound production without pharyngeal resonance. Otherwise, you have not. Dima's head appears to be intact, so I am very confident that the sound produced in his larynx resonated within his pharynx.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

PaulFranz said:


> If you've ever watched someone screaming as they are beheaded, then you have observed the phenomenon of laryngeal sound production without pharyngeal resonance. Otherwise, you have not. Dima's head appears to be intact, so I am very confident that the sound produced in his larynx resonated within his pharynx.


Well there's a difference between unavoidable resonance and proper resonance. He isn't using the pharynx as a resonator in the way a singer with proper squillo would.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Op.123 said:


> Well there's a difference between unavoidable resonance and proper resonance. He isn't using the pharynx as a resonator in the way a singer with proper squillo would.


It seems that you're thinking of narrowing of the epiglottic funnel, which is a laryngeal phenomenon. If you are and just got your terminology backwards, I definitely agree. Either way, he definitely isn't creating the necessary conditions for ring.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

PaulFranz said:


> It seems that you're thinking of narrowing of the epiglottic funnel, which is a laryngeal phenomenon. If you are and just got your terminology backwards, I definitely agree. Either way, he definitely isn't creating the necessary conditions for ring.


Im not sure of the specific terminology, just that his pharyngeal space doesn't sound fully opened.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm beginning to feel as if I got lost on my way to the music building and ended up in the school of medicine.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

To change the topic --- I just witnessed a truly spectacular performance of singing as performed by Nadine Sierra -- whose voice, actions, acting, beauty, and spirit are lighting up the Met with a Violetta to be reckoned with.
Too bad that the gawdy, glitzy staging by Michael Mayer had to disrupt her stunning sound. Also, she deserved a better than secondary cast (save for a fine Flora performance). Aside from some overdone interpolations (IMO) in Sempre libera, her voice calmly reached spectacular awe inspiring heights. Her last act was done to perfection. Even the letter from Germont was executed without that typical unnatural sounding, "E ta-a-a-a-ardi" at the end.
Too bad, though she tried, there was a lack of chemistry between her and Steven Costello who seems to always have a deer-in-the-headlights expression. He has a nice voice but lacks vigor onstage -- save for a few moments at Flora's party scene.
Luca Salsi as Germont seemed more like a mafia chief than a concerned father. He'd be great as a Rigoletto, but this part was a miscast.
I await a decent cast and staging surrounding Sierra soon. She deserves it.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> To change the topic --- I just witnessed a truly spectacular performance of singing as performed by Nadine Sierra -- whose voice, actions, acting, beauty, and spirit are lighting up the Met with a Violetta to be reckoned with.
> Too bad that the gawdy, glitzy staging by Michael Mayer had to disrupt her stunning sound. Also, she deserved a better than secondary cast (save for a fine Flora performance). Aside from some overdone interpolations (IMO) in Sempre libera, her voice calmly reached spectacular awe inspiring heights. Her last act was done to perfection. Even the letter from Germont was executed without that typical unnatural sounding, "E ta-a-a-a-ardi" at the end.
> Too bad, though she tried, there was a lack of chemistry between her and Steven Costello who seems to always have a deer-in-the-headlights expression. He has a nice voice but lacks vigor onstage -- save for a few moments at Flora's party scene.
> Luca Salsi as Germont seemed more like a mafia chief than a concerned father. He'd be great as a Rigoletto, but this part was a miscast.
> I await a decent cast and staging surrounding Sierra soon. She deserves it.


I'm not sure if this belongs here. She's a decent singer no doubt but I think the maker of this thread is more intent in finding those who sing with the old-school techniques and she is decidedly not one of them.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I'm not sure if this belongs here. She's a decent singer no doubt but I think the maker of this thread is more intent in finding those who sing with the old-school techniques and she is decidedly not one of them.


The heading clearly says "*GOOD MODERN SINGER???" *That seems good enough for me.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> The heading clearly says "*GOOD MODERN SINGER???" *That seems good enough for me.


Well, if considering current standards a lot of singers can be considered good. This thread was more about finding modern singers who could be comparable to past generations in terms of technique.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> Well, if considering current standards a lot of singers can be considered good. This thread was more about finding modern singers who could be comparable to past generations in terms of technique.


Actually it isn't, the thread is about one specific baritone...



PaulFranz said:


> Thoughts on this guy? I'd especially love to hear thoughts from people who primarily listen to very old, very dead singers.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Becca said:


> Actually it isn't, the thread is about one specific baritone...


Since he wants the opinions of those who mainly listen to older singers I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that this is primarily about those who sing with a well-formed, traditional technique.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

So which one is the baritone?? And where is the tenor?




And then there is this comparison of tenors:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Aah! The incomparable Björling and Merrill. Quite the best ever version of this duet, ever!!😎 And it’s 70 years old!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> Aah! The incomparable Björling and Merrill. Quite the best ever version of this duet, ever!!😎 And it’s 70 years old!


If you said “I want a duet which shows the male voice at its most glorious”, I’m not sure that I would have a number two!!! I come back to this and go wow, all the time!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Since he wants the opinions of those who mainly listen to older singers I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that this is primarily about those who sing with a well-formed, traditional technique.


And as much as I probably could never resist throwing in my rave for Bjoerling and Merril in that duet, I do have to admit that your point is well taken… It sounded familiar and I went back and looked at the heading. Compared to the very old and very dead you all enjoy, those two are not quite dead😉😆!!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Looks lik there is a discrepancy on what's considered old and what is not. Some say Merrill is old school but he was singing in the '50s. So where does "old" really start in your opinions?
I thought "old" meant anything from the "40's" on down.Perhaps it would help in establishing what belongs on this thread and what doesn't.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> Looks lik there is a discrepancy on what's considered old and what is not. Some say Merrill is old school but he was singing in the '50s. So where does "old" really start in your opinions?
> I thought "old" meant anything from the "40's" on down.Perhaps it would help in establishing what belongs on this thread and what doesn't.


I've never really considered this, but here's how I see it. If a singer sang in the 1930s or before I consider them old school. If they sang in the 2000s I consider them modern. I need something to call the singers between 1940 & 1999 who in my opinion are far superior to what we have now, but not on the level of what came before.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Guys, I was just asking about that one guy. I intended to broach no other topic. So if anyone cares what the thread creator originally intended, there it is.

That said, I do not mind in the slightest if this eventually degenerates into a discussion of fashion trends in the Crimean War. Nobody is paying me to moderate. You're all more than welcome to write whatever you feel like.

Also, personally, I tend to apply the term "old" to anyone who was singing before WWII. In my mind, the main old-school generation was born 1875-1885, and the "very old-school" (my favorite style, but tired voices and bad recording quality) was born 1830-1865.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Looks lik there is a discrepancy on what's considered old and what is not. Some say Merrill is old school but he was singing in the '50s. So where does "old" really start in your opinions?
> I thought "old" meant anything from the "40's" on down.Perhaps it would help in establishing what belongs on this thread and what doesn't.


You're not understanding. Merrill is old school, not because he sung in the 50s, but because of the technique he uses. If Netrebko, for instance, had been around in the 30s we wouldn't have called her old-school, Florence Foster Jenkins just wouldn't have been so unique any more. I exclusively use 'old-school' to indicate whether they use traditional methods of vocal production of not, not wether or not they grew up in the 1800s.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> You're not understanding. Merrill is old school, not because he sung in the 50s, but because of the technique he uses. If Netrebko, for instance, had been around in the 30s we wouldn't have called her old-school, Florence Foster Jenkins just wouldn't have been so unique any more. I exclusively use 'old-school' to indicate whether they use traditional methods of vocal production of not, not wether or not they grew up in the 1800s.


Well if that is what the OP is going for and nothing else seems appropriate for this thread then I am stuck with having to prove a voice (or voices) of today that uses the old school techniques, right?
There are some. For one, Joseph Calleja is a typical example of what you seem to believe is appropriate for this thread.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Well if that is what the OP is going for and nothing else seems appropriate for this thread then I am stuck with having to prove a voice (or voices) of today that uses the old school techniques, right?
> There are some. For one, Joseph Calleja is a typical example of what you seem to believe is appropriate for this thread.


Calleja isn't an example of old-school technique either, really. Saioa Hernandez is a good example although lately I've not been too impressed. Martin Muehle is another one. There really aren't many around though which is why there is this thread because they can be a b***h to find.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I have been involved in the classical music scene for decades. My opinion is that in North America at least advanced training and professional practice have been flawed structurally for quite a long time. I can't evaluate vocal technique but believe that for singers especially there are impediments to smooth paths of development. Five years ago, I read the following: Lanfranco Responi, _The Last Prima Donnas_ (Knopf, 1982) and John Steane, _Voices, Singers, and Critics _(Duckworth, 1992). In the first one especially, the superiority of old-school technique and training (going back at least 100 years now) came through in one interview after another of sopranos from Italy and elsewhere. We won't re-create the old conditions but having occasionally had a peak from the inside I know we could do better than we are doing now.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Indeed, Hvorostovsky is vastly preferable to all of these.
> I know we don't tend to agree on just how much to use the fach system, but Bryn Terfel has no power in the bottom half of his range. He is supposed to be a "bass-baritone", but every famous baritone on record from 1970 and before has a bigger, darker voice than him with much easier sounding low notes. That would be like a woman saying "I'm a soprano with 20 years performance experience, but I struggle with any notes above F#4".
> 
> We can set aside hyper-specific debates about whether someone singing Lady Macbeth is a Wagnerian soprano vs a falcon vs a dramatic coloratura soprano, etc, but, to be blunt, a lot of modern singers need to hear "Why the hell are you singing that? That is not *remotely *right for your voice and it's obvious in like 5 seconds". Terfel is one such example.



For comparison, this is not a bass-baritone 







*This *is a bass-baritone


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Op.123 said:


> If we compare his rendition to the exceptional openness and naturalness of this one you can see where his technical failings are, although it is nice to here a baritone with some of the same ring to his sound. Unfortunately even good singers these days don't seem to have the technique to last. I listened to a recent excerpt of Saioa Hernandez in Tosca and it was horrible. A real shame.


To keep things clear for me, I'm focusing only on this Tagliabue rendition of "Il Balen." Op. 123, I support your comment on his "exceptional openness and naturalness." It's a song not an etude. He just "goes for" the high notes and tricky passages, keeping it simple. Maintains the line and rhythm; towards the end there is a natural lilt in the repeated chorus that has me swaying a bit. Breath support, legato, tone quality -- tick. Dubois and Petti are good but less engaging to me.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> For comparison, this is not a bass-baritone
> 
> 
> 
> *This *is a bass-baritone


I can't hear it! No problem with Bing but I hear nothing like your old comparison of Merrill to Hampson on Largo al Factotum. Terfel's low note is weak but the singing in the middle and lower middle are sounds I have no trouble buying as bass-baritone. Doesn't sound like a bass of course .But it's a sound I wouldn't expect most Verdi baritones to be making in that range.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I can't hear it! No problem with Bing but I hear nothing like your old comparison of Merrill to Hampson on Largo al Factotum.


He isn't an opera singer, so it's probably not the best comparison, but even....just listen to those low notes. 





Not only does he not lose any of his power, he slows down and crescendos to the bottom. Terfel looses his color and resonance on anything below low C. Meanwhile, the low in that clip is only a low A, but Bing has several pieces with over a dozen low Gs, and plenty where he sings well below that (his lowest resonant note is probably E2, but he's got halfway decent low Ebs and low Ds).



> Terfel's low note is weak but the singing in the middle and lower middle are sounds I have no trouble buying as bass-baritone. Doesn't sound like a bass of course .But it's a sound I wouldn't expect most Verdi baritones to be making in that range.


This is a perfect example of why opera is dying as an arform. "He's a bass-baritone, he just doesn't have good low notes"....what? Imagine what would happen if we cast women for soprano parts who had not good notes above A5? Basses and bass-baritones are supposed to be big, dark, cavernous, _menacing._ We hear none of that from Bryn. 

Since Bing isn't an opera singer, perhaps another comparison would better illustrate my point. Listen to Bryn Terfel...and then listen to this. Night and day. Not even remotely similar.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If they were "big, dark, cavernous" then they would be a bass not a bass-baritone.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Becca said:


> If they were "big, dark, cavernous" then they would be a bass not a bass-baritone.


I didn't get a chance to listen to the other welsh bb yet, but Becca's observation definitely has gone through my mind. And not every Bass has formidable low notes. 

Bass-Baritone brings Wotan and Hans Sachs to my mind. My one experience with Terfel live was as Rheingold Wotan. He definitely felt a bit small (but I was literally in the last row of the Met) but I thought the timbre was right. I might have thought that Wotan at the Met was too big a role for his voice, but I wouldn't have thought he was entirely in the wrong fach.

Baritones remind me of tenors in that their voices gain their most expressive and attractive qualities as they climb. I think basses and bass-baritones need a more even vocal presence throughout the range. The Mefistofeles piece seems to have that.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Over the years I've become a part of the 'there's no such thing as a bass baritone' camp. I think there are lower lying baritones and higher lying basses and that the rep they sing generally tells you who is who, but that the bb category is unnecessary.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> He isn't an opera singer, so it's probably not the best comparison, but even....just listen to those low notes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, Problem here is, to my ear, the clearest sense of enhanced resonance through the recording process. We know it is done and this feels to me like a textbook case. The guy’s sound has definitely the kind of Core that I know you love down in the central part of these voices. But it’s not an important sound unless it’s quite resonant and we can’t tell that from this recording because his sound definitely sounds juiced up!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Over the years I've become a part of the 'there's no such thing as a bass baritone' camp. I think there are lower lying baritones and higher lying basses and that the rep they sing generally tells you who is who, but that the bb category is unnecessary.


I can get behind that, but if you're going that route....what low baritone/high bass would Bryn Terfel sound good in?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> Over the years I've become a part of the 'there's no such thing as a bass baritone' camp. I think there are lower lying baritones and higher lying basses and that the rep they sing generally tells you who is who, but that the bb category is unnecessary.


A bass-baritone is no different conceptually from the female Falcon type (somewhere betwixt mezzo and soprano.)


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I can get behind that, but if you're going that route....what low baritone/high bass would Bryn Terfel sound good in?


He should have stuck to Mozart.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Becca said:


> A bass-baritone is no different conceptually from the female Falcon type (somewhere betwixt mezzo and soprano.)


... except one notch down. An exact female equivalent to bass-baritone would be a mezzo-contralto or something. There is an exact French male equivalent of "falcon"--"martin", or "baryton-martin", like sometimes Pelléas.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

ewilkros said:


> ... except one notch down. An exact female equivalent to bass-baritone would be a mezzo-contralto or something. There is an exact French male equivalent of "falcon"--"martin", or "baryton-martin", like sometimes Pelléas.


Yes, I had figured that out, I did say 'conceptually'.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> A bass-baritone is no different conceptually from the female Falcon type (somewhere betwixt mezzo and soprano.)


I don't believe in the 'Falcon' either!

What's that you say?

"Oh! For fach's sake, Conte!"

N.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I can get behind that, but if you're going that route....what low baritone/high bass would Bryn Terfel sound good in?


His early Mozart always sounded good to me. I don’t know if he still sings it but Figaro, Leporello, the Don, Don Alfonso all sound like things he’d be good in. I’ve heard Falstaff once, a long time ago, and don’t really know it but wouldn’t he be right for it? And I’ve mentioned that I think he’d be right for Boccanegra which is not difficult vocally and he’s got the right gravitas for it dramatically.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> His early Mozart always sounded good to me. I don’t know if he still sings it but Figaro, Leporello, the Don, Don Alfonso all sound like things he’d be good in. I’ve heard Falstaff once, a long time ago, and don’t really know it but wouldn’t he be right for it? And I’ve mentioned that I think he’d be right for Boccanegra which is not difficult vocally and he’s got the right gravitas for it dramatically.


Verdi's music requires big voices and Falstaff and Boccanegra are no exceptions regardless of the difficulty of getting the notes out.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Verdi's music requires big voices and Falstaff and Boccanegra are no exceptions regardless of the difficulty of getting the notes out.


I agree. I’ve come so close to hearing him live a number of times when he didn’t show up and Wotan in the last row of the house sounds like a tough way to judge him. The voice may not sound huge but it doesn’t sound small to me either. After writing that last bit I wondered if Walter Berry might not be a template for Terfel.....Mozart, Strauss’ less dramatic roles, Barak, Ochs - Berry got away with the low notes but they weren’t much. Still not certain he’d come up short in those two Verdi roles. In both of them, his dramatic chops would count heavily.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I agree. I’ve come so close to hearing him live a number of times when he didn’t show up and Wotan in the last row of the house sounds like a tough way to judge him. The voice may not sound huge but it doesn’t sound small to me either. After writing that last bit I wondered if Walter Berry might not be a template for Terfel.....Mozart, Strauss’ less dramatic roles, Barak, Ochs - Berry got away with the low notes but they weren’t much. Still not certain he’d come up short in those two Verdi roles. In both of them, his dramatic chops would count heavily.


So many voices today are so small that I think when people hear anyone with even a little bit of resonance they go "oooh dark powerful voice perfect for Verdi or Wagner" etc. without any idea how large the human voice can be. I went to a local concert and there was a countertenor singing in some choral piece. The voice was pinched and tiny with next to no resonance and the lady next to me was saying to us "it's amazing how he can project his voice over the entire choir"... I thought I must have been listening to an entirely different concert. At that same concert we had a tenor who looked like he was trying to push something out the other end whenever he went above the stave, and probably creating less resonance than if he was, as well as a baritone who exhibited a phenomenon I can only describe as anti-resonance. A voice so devoid of resonance that it seemed as if he was trying to swallow the sound before it left his body. I felt like I could put an ear to his mouth and still feel like I was five rows back. Worst of all is nobody seemed to think anything of it, they applauded and left clearly thinking that that was what classically trained voice are supposed to sound like. This was in a fairly small town, albeit one with a well-renowned concert hall, but I can't imagine even small town concerts having vocalists even a tenth as poor as those 60 years ago. I feel like if they were presented with a Flagstad, Callas, Tebaldi or Del Monaco they'd probably assume witchcraft or have a minor heartattack. That's if they didn't walk out due to a certain lack of 'subtle elegance'...


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I also think it's instructive when thinking about projection and volume to think about the sounds you hear in the natural world. How far the sounds of birds can carry, how loud your little dog can yap at the postman. The size of a lion's roar. Sperm whales can be as loud as an atomic bomb, something like 210db, enough to vibrate you to death if you're in the water with them or something ridiculous. Just because you haven't got an amp doesn't mean you can't create volume, most mammals have built in noise-making organs.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> So many voices today are so small that I think when people hear anyone with even a little bit of resonance they go "oooh dark powerful voice perfect for Verdi or Wagner" etc. without any idea how large the human voice can be. I went to a local concert and there was a countertenor singing in some choral piece. The voice was pinched and tiny with next to no resonance and the lady next to me was saying to us "it's amazing how he can project his voice over the entire choir"... I thought I must have been listening to an entirely different concert. At that same concert we had a tenor who looked like he was trying to push something out the other end whenever he went above the stave, and probably creating less resonance than if he was, as well as a baritone who exhibited a phenomenon I can only describe as anti-resonance. A voice so devoid of resonance that it seemed as if he was trying to swallow the sound before it left his body. I felt like I could put an ear to his mouth and still feel like I was five rows back. Worst of all is nobody seemed to think anything of it, they applauded and left clearly thinking that that was what classically trained voice are supposed to sound like. This was in a fairly small town, albeit one with a well-renowned concert hall, but I can't imagine even small town concerts having vocalists even a tenth as poor as those 60 years ago. I feel like if they were presented with a Flagstad, Callas, Tebaldi or Del Monaco they'd probably assume witchcraft or have a minor heartattack. That's if they didn't walk out due to a certain lack of 'subtle elegance'...


Without doing any sort of patting ourselves on the back, you do have to acknowledge that you listening to those voices and “some lady” listening is not the same thing! Forever, the muggles have amazed me with the ease with which they can be impressed by a voice simply because it makes a legit sound, good, bad or indifferent! Similarly, but on a higher plane, I saw Robert Merrill on an interview saying that it has happened to him a number of times that someone tells him of a promising Young dramatic tenor and when Merrill hears the singer, it’s a healthy lyric tenor! He said people have no idea of how much sound a lyric tenor makes up close. But those things don’t have to affect our reckoning of a singer like Terfel. Like him or not, he’s established a major career on international stages. A person may think his acclaim is out of proportion to his talent - Personally, I may have some doubts about him but I’m not in that group- and that he represents the decline in singing. I don’t really compare eras the way some of you guys do because my ear just doesn’t hear it. I think in the right music he has a star lower baritone voice with charisma and acting ability.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Does a normal audience include more opera experts (or those who believe they are opera experts), or is it just more often made up of the "average joe" who is enthusiastically applauding all the things the "experts" believe is trash?
And who is having the more fun? One buddy of mine answered, "why the opera expert of course, who doesn't enjoy most of anyone's voices today and delights much more on elitist criticism."
Say now, there's some food for thought!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Does a normal audience include more opera experts (or those who believe they are opera experts), or is it just more often made up of the "average joe" who is enthusiastically applauding all the things the "experts" believe is trash?
> And who is having the more fun? One buddy of mine answered, "why the opera expert of course, who doesn't enjoy most of anyone's voices today and delights much more on elitist criticism."
> Say now, there's some food for thought!


I think the elitist posturing of, 'these don't sound like voices that sing pop music so they must be good' is more problematic than enjoying the artform with a good grasp of how voices should sound. I'm honestly not at all concerned with the current audiences in opera houses and heavily relate to the majority of the population who now see operatic singing as forced warbling. I love the music but the whole spectacle now just seems pompous and silly. How many people would have thought operatic voices sounded horrible 100 years ago? It was the most popular artform at the turn of the twentieth century. Being critical doesn't mean being elitist. Catering to the select few and an ideology of superiority does.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The reaction to a singer in the opera house can be very different from hearing them on recordings, even for the afficionados, i.e. it's similar to a typical reaction to a recording of 'I would have been happy to hear it in the concert hall but not as something to keep.'


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

One thing I don’t hear very often on this forum is the “sheer relish in the putdown” that we all are familiar with. That’s not unimportant in a discussion in which groups disagree as much as we can. So I do agree that being critical is not the same thing as Being elitist.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Becca said:


> The reaction to a singer in the opera house can be very different from hearing them on recordings, even for the afficionados, i.e. it's similar to a typical reaction to a recording of 'I would have been happy to hear it in the concert hall but not as something to keep.'


This is true to an extent but you can usually tell how a voice is going to sound. Many voices sound different to how they do on record but none have surprised me yet.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> This is true to an extent but you can usually tell how a voice is going to sound. Many voices sound different to how they do on record but none have surprised me yet.


They can surprise me with impact. Such major names as Kollo, Leontyne Price and Aragall wowed me live. The voices sounded similar on records but without anything approaching the wow!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> The reaction to a singer in the opera house can be very different from hearing them on recordings, even for the afficionados, i.e. it's similar to a typical reaction to a recording of 'I would have been happy to hear it in the concert hall but not as something to keep.'


I think Olivero comes under this category. The harshness of her voice was brought to the fore in her studio Fedora, whereas her voice blends into the orchestra more on her live recordings. A large part of the appeal are her vocal melodramatics and what works in performance can be hammy when listening without the visuals at home. (Although I can take the ham when it's very good ham!)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> This is true to an extent but you can usually tell how a voice is going to sound. Many voices sound different to how they do on record but none have surprised me yet.


It's not necessarily that the voice sounds different on recordings to live, but rather the balance between orchestra and singer is different (as is the experience of being in the same room as the singer at the same time as the performance vs listening to a past event at home).

N.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> Over the years I've become a part of the 'there's no such thing as a bass baritone' camp. I think there are lower lying baritones and higher lying basses and that the rep they sing generally tells you who is who, but that the bb category is unnecessary.


I'm the president of that camp. Why did none of the composers who wrote these roles ever mention bass-baritones, but nowadays every other male singer claims to be one? It feels like every time I read about a historical bass, he's described as a "bass-baritone" for some reason, despite very clearly specializing in bass roles. Some roles can be sung by either voice type, but that doesn't allow for an entire vocal category. Any normal bass AND any normal baritone can sing Don Giovanni, Mozart's Figaro, Korsakov's Salieri, Berlioz's Méphistophélès, Escamillo, etc. Heavier baritones and higher basses can sing the Wagner hoher Bass parts. Baritones used to sing Gounod's Méphistophélès and Boris Godunov, but those are pretty firmly bass territory today, and I understand why--Verdi wasn't quite core rep for baritones back when that happened, and it has been (or at least was) since the end of the 19th century, so baritones tend to be higher now.

Baritones and basses have always shared more rep than baritones and tenors, considering that the baritone grew out of the bass category. Sort of like how women cross over a lot: there are many borderline mezzo-soprano/soprano roles, and the distinction between contraltos and mezzos today is effectively dead, not that it was ever particularly robust.

But nobody, and I mean nobody, is singing both Tonio and Sparafucile. Or Riccardo and Marcel. Or even Iago and Mefistofele. Nobody takes "baritenor" seriously as an actual category because nobody can sing both (without retraining--plz no mentions of Vinay and Zanelli). Why accept bass-baritone, a completely modern invention applied retroactively to earlier works?

Heck, I don't even buy the cantante-profondo distinction anymore, as I don't think it describes a meaningful distinction in repertoire, Wagner excluded. Every German bass sings Sarastro, and every French bass sings Gounod's Méphistophélès. Without a meaningful repertoire distinction, I don't see the utility in subdividing voices. What would an Italian profondo even do for a career? What Italian roles are truly meant only for profondi? Don Carlos (written for French singers), probably La forza del destino...and I'm out. Maybe I'm forgetting stuff.

So for me, here are the categories I value:

Lyric tenor: Can sing everything from Rossini to Cavaradossi. Björling.

Spinto tenor: Can sing any tenor role ever written since Duprez invented the full-voice high C. Campagnola.

Dramatic tenor: Specializes in heavy stuff. Ponderous and strained in anything as light as Rodolfo. MDM.

Baritone: Can sing any baritone role. Maybe Heldenbariton stuff is too much. Wagner always challenges how I classify voices. Stracciari.

Bass: Can sing any bass role. Maybe Wagnerian Schwarzer Bass is too much for many of them. Sibiryakov.

Maybe Wagner can have his own classifications. My point is that the endless subdividing is not useful when it serves merely to describe an individual voice. The point of the classification is to find suitable rep.

As for women, I imagine it would look the same as for men, though maybe I'd stick contraltos and mezzos in the same basket. Not sure, as I don't know female rep very well.


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