# Requiem Masses



## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I've only started getting into these, and the ones I've listened to so far (Verdi, Mozart, Faure) are incredible. I've looked a bit at which other composers have written one (listened to a few samples from Dvorak, Bruckner, St-Saens, Salieri, and Brahms). Which are the ones you really enjoy? Which other ones are out there that I haven't listed?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

My absolute favourite - as every regular member here would guess - is Brahms's _Deutsches Requiem_. For me, even for Brahms's constantly high standard, I find this work to be particularly other-worldly. I think it is his single best composition, with a kind of beauty that has remained unmatched. My favourite recording is Simon Rattle:










Of course, as you mentioned, the Verdi is fantastic, and it is another of my favourites, though it's not a work I can listen to all that often because it's so heavy. I and many others would probably recommend the Georg Solti recording for that one. The Dvorak Requiem is a work that I think you should really stick with. I started by listening to extracts from it, not really getting into it, but on one occasion I made the effort to sit and listen to it properly, and I was absolutely bowled over. It's one of Dvorak's earliest works from his mature period - it's not his best piece, but it's certainly beautiful, and you can really feel his craftsmanship come out. Luckily, there's a wonderful recent recording by Neeme Jarvi.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Hector Berlioz' Requiem (also called le grand messe des morts) is another excellent Mass for the Dead. It's most famous moment is the Tuba Mirum, where Berlioz amasses an unbelievable amount of power from brass, tympani, and the choirs. It also has some more introspective sections as the liturgy expects.

Maurice Durufflé's Requiem is set for a much smaller orchestra, and it has the tenderness and intimacy of Fauré's Requiem. It's another Requiem of the type that doesn't assume that 99% of us are going straight to Hell.

The only other Requiem other than those already listed that I'm familiar with is Cherubini's Requiem. I last heard it many years ago, but I do remember that I liked what I heard.

Benjamin Britten's _War Requiem_ is an entirely different idea. Interspersed with the liturgical movements are sections written to some poems of Wilfred Owen, a British poet who was killed in World War I. It's one of those magnificent pieces that manages to be uplifting despite its bleak subject matter.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I concur with member *Waldvogel* in the opinion of* Cherubini's *_Requiem in C_ (if that's the one you mean, he wrote two). I recently experienced it live, had never heard it before, and was completely absorbed by it & blown away. They provided the text in the program notes, and my God could this guy express and colour the text in a totally unique and refreshing way (even now, over 200 years after it was penned!). The concluding _Lux Aeterna (Eternal Light)_ was not what you'd think, it was like eternal darkness to me, or at least a lot of ambiguity. No wonder Beethoven himself preferred this work over Mozart's _Requiem_.

I've not heard either the Brahms, Berlioz or Dvorak mentioned above, but they are on my backburner (I've recently acquired a recording of the Brahms).

The Faure & Durufle get my thumbs up, big time, their popularity is well-deserved, imo.

I've got Verdi's one, only listened to it once (Maestro Reiner's classic account), but I found it too long & kind of complex. I'll have to get back to in when I'm in the right frame of mind.

Others I'll mention that I think are great -

*Ligeti* - Used in the Stanley Kubrick film_ 2001: A Space Odyessy _to great effect, this is a work that speaks to being in a kind of netherworld or purgatory. It's hard to explain properly, you'll just have to hear it for yourself.

*Stanford* - This has made me cry so many times. Like Brahms, Stanford was not a high voltage innovator, his aim was not really to move music forward, just do things in a unique way, and do them darn good. The choral harmonies in this work are unique, the soloist singers do have a fair bit of Italian warmth (Verdi esp. comes to mind), and the orchestration is not full-on top heavy as was the fashion of the late c19th, it harks back to the restraint and economy of guys like Mendelssohn. A very emotionally engaging work for me, there's only one recording of it available (on the Naxos label, done in Ireland), & it's a pity that this is not better known, because it ticks all the boxes as an excellent requiem, imo.

*Peter Sculthorpe* - A more recent work by the now octegenarian Aussie composer, this is more pared down than some of his earlier stuff, and incl. the use of the Aboriginal wind instrument, the didgeridoo...


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## dmg (Sep 13, 2009)

Blast. Outquicknessed by the above.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Not mentioned yet, and well worth listening to is Hindemith's When lilacs last in the dooryard bloomed (Requiem for the ones we loved).
And I agree with several others mentioned, most notably Mozart, Faure, Brahms, Britten, Verdi, Durufle and Dvorak. I need to check on Stanford and Sculthorpe, two composers I like very mucg, but I have not heard their requiems.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Brahms is my favorite too, and I recommend you make that one a priority.

A friend of mine wrote a requiem last year for small unaccompanied choir. It uses standard Latin requiem texts (with a 20th century poem in English as the last movement), but is relatively short. It's spare and beautiful and sometimes heartbreaking, and now I'm thinking of asking her if I can share it--I think folks here may like it.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'd have to agree with Sid James, on just how well Cherubini express the lyrics of the pieces in his Requiem. Not only does he express them thematically in the structure, the motifs, and instrumentation, but he shapes each phrase according to the lyrics that are being sung at that moment, and I mean *really well*.

From Sanctus:
Sanctus Dominus Deus Sabaoth (Holy is the Lord God of Hosts)
Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua (Heaven and earth are full of thy glory)

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9d/IMSLP62947-PMLP59513-Cherubini-RequiemCmFS.pdf


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Ah, I just noticed that there is an even better example of the lyrics shaping the music in the Agnus Dei.

Agnus Dei qui tollis peccata mundi (Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world)
Dona eis requiem (Grant them rest)

Pretty stark expression there in the music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Lukecash12 said:


> ...Pretty stark expression there in the music.


Yes, "stark" is the word for Cherubini's _Requiem in C_, & I'd also add pared down and lean. Not much (or even no hint of) bombast here. It's very direct and that's why it had such visceral impact on me upon the first listen at that concert. I like how he used the small orchestra to produce maximum effect. Less is more, as they say...


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sid James said:


> Yes, "stark" is the word for Cherubini's _Requiem in C_, & I'd also add pared down and lean. Not much (or even no hint of) bombast here. It's very direct and that's why it had such visceral impact on me upon the first listen at that concert. I like how he used the small orchestra to produce maximum effect. Less is more, as they say...


I've always found small orchestras a little more appropriate, when it comes to most music of the classical period, because their orchestration and voice arrangement was a little more lean (as you say). There are many niceties to be had in the dynamic balance between the voices, so it's always seemed best to me to use a smaller orchestra and cater to a setting better for that type of orchestra, in order that those listeners there can hear the "blood and thunder" too, hehe.

Am I a snob because I prefer scaled orchestra sizes and period instruments? Naw, I just have sensitive ears that can't stand it when the horns and strings are bashing each others brains out in order to be heard, still failing to be all that distinguishable.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

There is a Requiem by the English composer Wilfred Josephs which is somewhat out of the ordinary. I have it on an 33 rpm LP disk whic to the best of my knowledge has never made it to CD. It was composed in commemoration of the Holocaust with the sections pertaining to the Requiem Mass being played by a string quartet while the orchestra, chorus and soloists are given a setting of the Kaddish. It is a very eloquent and meaningful composition which deserves to be better known.

Then there is also the Requiem by Andrew Lloyd Weber which, with the possible exception of the Pie Jesu, is a piece of garbage in my not very humble opinion. I played the recording once and that was enough to consign it to the dumpster.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Probably my favourite Requiem Mass is the famous one by the late Spanish Renaissance composer *Tomás Luis de Victoria:* *Officium defunctorum (Requiem Mass) of 1605* written for the funeral of the Dowager Empress María.

This is considered to be among the top works written by Victoria. The version I have is contained as one item among several on a 3-CD set by the Tallis Scholars. There are several other versions, but this is the only I have heard in full.

Victoria is among the greats of classical music, but relatively is heard about him on T-C. It has become fashionable lately to investigate the works of Victoria because it's his 400th anniversary (1548-1611). But that's not how I first became familiar with his works. Various of them (e.g. lamentations and other short pieces) used to be sung at Westminster Cathedral (and still are, of course) when I was a lot younger and taken there by my parents at Easter time.

Victoria's compositional style appeals to me greatly. It's not absolutely certain but he may well have studied under Palestrina whilst he was in Rome, training for holy orders and developing his compositional skills. He was in Rome for several years and became quite famous in his own day. Victoria's style is generally simpler than Palestrina's, but equally majestic.

I used to like several much later Requiems from the Classical and Romantic periods, but I now find them mostly quite tedious and OTT in comparison with the more elegant, down-to-earth, and more dignified work by Victoria. Much as I'm reluctant to criticise famous works by later masters, I have to confess that I have gone off quite a few later Requiems that I once used to enjoy. The Berlioz, Verdi efforts are now quite ghastly affairs to me now, and the Faure I find way too chocolate-box.


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

My favorite Requiem is Brahms's. I have a recording with Abbado and love it - esp. the baritone's work in "Herr, lehre doch mich". I have only two recordings of Verdi's Requiem - by Bernstein (great soloists, but the chorus is distant - the sound engineering problem mostly - and maybe too "nervous") and Giulini (his late version on DG). Still, I can't get accustomed to it - for me it is not a religious music. I esp. don't like Tuba mirum part in Verdi Requiem - for me it's not serious, just bombastic. 

Brahms Requiem for me is an inner dialogue between God and a man.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Moscow-Mahler said:


> My favorite Requiem is Brahms's. I have a recording with Abbado and love it - esp. the baritone's work in "Herr, lehre doch mich". I have only two recordings of Verdi's Requiem - by Bernstein (great soloists, but the chorus is distant - the sound engineering problem mostly - and maybe too "nervous") and Giulini (his late version on DG). Still, I can't get accustomed to it - for me it is not a religious music. I esp. don't like Tuba mirum part in Verdi Requiem - for me it's not serious, just bombastic.
> 
> Brahms Requiem for me is an inner dialogue between God and a man.


Personally, I'm a fan of Verdi's precisely _because_ it doesn't feel like serious sacred music. Brahms's is my favourite because, though it uses a religious text, its essential humanism makes God superfluous to the music.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

My vote goes to Verdi as well, though I like some of the other ones mentioned, notably Cherubini, Brahms and Britten's 

I own the Abbado and Toscanini versions, recorded to commemorate the hundredth and fiftieth anniversaries of Verdi's passing. They are both great performances and fine documents in "differing style".


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

Mozart then Brahms then Faure. Don't like the Verdi really.

Also Britten's if that counts.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

The only (ever so slight) reservation I have with the Brahms is the text - I am not fluent in German, and not familiar with the slelections Brahms made. I am more at home with the latin text. The music (and orchestration) are inventiive, which well makes up for this.

As for the Mozart, how dare I NOT mention it before...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like the blood and thunder and all-round heft of the likes of Verdi and Berlioz but Durufle's gentler, almost otherworldly textures seem to convey the essence of private rather than communal devotion - what a beautiful work.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Artemis said:


> Probably my favourite Requiem Mass is the famous one by the late Spanish Renaissance composer *Tomás Luis de Victoria:* *Officium defunctorum (Requiem Mass) of 1605* written for the funeral of the Dowager Empress María.


Indeed, it is a very elegant and pristine piece. This is my version of it.










There are really just two types of Requiem mass: one that was truely intended for the church service (for example the Victoria piece), and the other that was written more like a concert piece (for example Cherubini's, which has many bombastic parts to it that might even wake the dead for a concert listening experience :lol.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

...or a "third" type of requiem, that was meant for BOTH church services & concert performance - eg. Faure's. He originally wrote it smaller scale, that version was resurrected in the late 1980's by two French scholars (a hundred years after it was last performed) & is now quite regularly performed in concert (saw it last year). Faure also did a larger version on the behest of his publisher.

I agree the de Victoria requiem is excellent, I have it on disc myself, quite a lyrical work it is. But at the time, de Victoria was seen as more flamboyant than the Italians (esp. the Romans, eg. Palestrina or Allegri).

Funny how you think that the Cherubini "has many bombastic parts," I disagree with that greatly. I didn't notice much or any in that live performance recently, and it's in live performance that "bombast" (or unwanted/unneeded bombast) would really be noticeable. & in any case, Cherubini's requiem was written in memory of Louis XIV, for a memorial service to him which was put on in a church or cathedral or whatever, so it was a kind of church service, but it happened more than 20 years after the death of the king...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Requiem music is not just any mass. There should be a subtlety with it that's moving and appropriate for the service. I find pre-Romantic requiems most apt in this regard, without the unnecessary grandeur in a church service for the dead person that mourning relatives do not really seek (unless it was a "show-funeral"). Cherubini's sounded more like a grand memorial service for the dead emperor, and very effective for that nationalistic service, which was probably why they kept using it for that purpose. As for Fauré's, which I have both versions from 1892 and the expanded one from 1901 (well directed by Philippe Herreweghe), it was unclear what he really intended it for as far as an actual church service was concerned, (probably the death of his parents). I much prefer the earlier 1892 version (the expanded "orchestral" version seemed to have more than one author's involvement). A good example of this grandeur at the extreme is Verdi's. I enjoy all the pieces, include Cherubini's, but was trying to draw that distinction. Of all the Romantic period requiems, I probably would pick Brahms and Fauré. The Berlioz piece is not bad either.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> There are really just two types of Requiem mass: *one that was truely intended for the church service (f*or example the Victoria piece), and the other that was written more like a concert piece (for example Cherubini's, which has many bombastic parts to it that might even wake the dead for a concert listening experience :lol.


 Regards requiems for church services, in the RC church, where of course all these types of works originated, there are 3 main types of requiem mass:


A requiem mass which may be offered as soon as the news of the death is received*: *mass_ post acceptum mortis nuncium_
A requiem mass that is celebrated on the occasion of the obsequies (_exequiæ_) of a person, before the burial.
A votive requiem Mass is a mass celebrated after someone's (the _votum_) deaths, perhaps on their anniversaries etc.
 For each of these, there are "low" and "high" versions, varying according to the amount of liturgy that is sung/read.

Regards, Brahms German Requiem, it's a peculiar thing all round. It was designed for a concert hall, not a church. It's not a liturgical piece in any sense of the word. There's no Christian dogma in it, per se, just a few selections from the OT. It's not even a commemoration for the dead, but for the living.

I'm not saying that's it's not suitable for a funeral service. Some people may like it. Nor am I saying I don't like it. On the contrary, I still do quite like it as a big choral piece, which is excellently written, but that kind of material doesn't hold as much interest for me these days as it once used to. I mainly find it difficult to reconcile with my concept of a "classical music quality" requiem mass, as normally understood, for which the mass by Victoria that I referred to earlier is a good example at the top end of the quality spectrum.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Artemis said:


> Regards requiems for church services, in the RC church, where of course all these types of works originated, there are 3 main types of requiem mass:
> 
> 
> A requiem mass which may be offered as soon as the news of the death is received*: *mass_ post acceptum mortis nuncium_
> ...


Yes, I'm aware of that. I didn't go into that detail but loosely categorised the requiems for service versus a concert piece, or at least pieces that felt like a concert piece even though it may have been intended for a service (which is not to say I don't enjoy either).



Artemis said:


> It's not even a commemoration for the dead, but for the living.


:lol: I read that twice, the first was perhaps the incorrect (humourous) way, followed by your intention I guess. The Brahms and Verdi pieces definitely come across to me as concert feel (enjoyable concert feel). I have John Eliot Gardiner doing his usual standards.

Other requiems I can recommend include (all on period instruments):-

*Michael Haydn*









*Joseph Eybler* (friend of the Mozarts and whom Constanze first approached to request for completing Wolfgang's, instead of approaching Süssmayr first. Had Eybler took up the completion, we would most probably be listening to a higher quality completion than to Süssmayr's cobble).









*Johann A. Hasse* (speaking of concert feel, take a listen to this. Hasse was, like Handel, an opera composer by vocation)









*Benedetto Marcello*









*H. Schütz* (a subtle masterpiece)


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> :lol: I read that twice, the first was perhaps the incorrect (humourous) way, followed by your intention I guess.


Oh I don't know about that. It could be that it's a hot favourite among the dead thinking about their former days when they were alive. Could be that there may be some among us .... ("_Real Spooky_", as Dame Edna might say).


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

It is interesting that three of the most popular Requiems seem to be Berlioz, Verdi and Faure. All three composers are reputed to be Agnostics.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Süssmayr's cobble


To be fair I don't think it's _that_ bad overall; much of it I would describe as pedestrian, even a few nice moments. What is annoying is that it does have some truly awful moments as well - the one which springs to mind is the section of the Benedictus beginning at 1:27:






Those crass forte chords, followed by a clarinet duet which almost ends the phrase beautifully until it is rudely interrupted by, to quote something I once saw written about it, 'a stupid chromatic wobble' followed by a deeply uncomfortable drop and return in the bass. An apt description for a passage which displays quite the opposite of Mozart's elegance.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> ...As for Fauré's, which I have both versions from 1892 and the expanded one from 1901 (well directed by Philippe Herreweghe), it was unclear what he really intended it for as far as an actual church service was concerned, (probably the death of his parents). I much prefer the earlier 1892 version (the expanded "orchestral" version seemed to have more than one author's involvement)...


As far as I know, Faure was asked to write his _Requiem_ for a parishioner in the church where he was organist in Paris. Faure did not know the man, but the composer's father did die not long before, although he denied he wrote it in memory of his father. In the notes of the recording I have, it says that it may be likely that Faure wrote it because he felt like it, it was on a kind of whim. We don't know exactly why. I agree with the gist of what you say in terms of he didn't want to rearrange it for larger forces, his publisher was kind of behind that move. But as I suggested, in this case it's not clear what type of requiem this is, it was meant for both the funeral service of that parishioner, and also purely as music, because Faure felt like that. He was a very natural guy in that way.



> ...A good example of this grandeur at the extreme is Verdi's. I enjoy all the pieces, include Cherubini's, but was trying to draw that distinction. Of all the Romantic period requiems, I probably would pick Brahms and Fauré. The Berlioz piece is not bad either.


Fair enough, however when I think of "bombast," I think of it as something being overblown. Maybe some of the requiems from the second half of the c19th do fit that description (eg. Verdi's or Berlioz's). But the earlier ones like Cherubini's don't, imo. If you say the Cherubini _Requiem in C _has too much bombast, you may as well say the same thing for large scale choral things by Handel. I think I remember reading in the program notes to the effect that Cherubini also was also not thought of highly by some in the conservative church establishment for writing a work for mixed choir. So his next requiem was for male voices only, it was more traditional (I haven't heard that one, have you HC or anybody else here?).

But in terms of later requiems, the ones that move me most are the more lyrical and intimate ones, using the orchestra as an underpinning support for the vocal parts, not as a main protagonist in itself (eg. in Faure, and in the Stanford I talked about above, he uses a large orchestra, but uses it economically and with much subtlety, eg. I can count on maybe one hand the number of times he draws on the cymbals in that, he doesn't over do bombast at all). But keep in mind, as I said, that I haven't yet heard the Dvorak & Brahms...


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## unpocoscherzando (Sep 24, 2011)

For something very different, try the unusual _Requiem_ of Sir John Tavener from 2008.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I'd recommend Delius' requiem. I believe it's one of the first requiems written by an atheist... the beginning goes someone along the lines of: 'you think you're ascending into heaven, and then you realize there's no god' (not exactly those words, but you get the gist). 

Anyways, it's a great piece... the ending is sickeningly beautiful.


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## doctorGwiz (Sep 25, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I think I remember reading in the program notes to the effect that Cherubini also was also not thought of highly by some in the conservative church establishment for writing a work for mixed choir. So his next requiem was for male voices only, it was more traditional (I haven't heard that one, have you HC or anybody else here?).


I've read that on wikipedia, and the site requiemsurvey.org (which allegedly has details on 4947 composed requiems) confirms it. I have a recording of it with Muti and the Philharmonia, definitely worth a listen.

To add, Josef Rheinberger wrote 4 requiem masses, but the only one I'm familiar with is the D minor (1900).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Is Brahm's German Requiem the only one that is not a mass? Or are there other non-mass requiems?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Is Brahm's German Requiem the only one that is not a mass? Or are there other non-mass requiems?


Henze, Takemitsu (just to start you off). Henze's actually used the titles for the sections of the mass, but there are no voices to sing the words. Takemitsu's is a piece for string orchestra.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Henze, Takemitsu (just to start you off). Henze's actually used the titles for the sections of the mass, but there are no voices to sing the words. Takemitsu's is a piece for string orchestra.


The wordless one sounds interesting, but the names are foreign to me. What about familiar composers of the classical era?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Florestan said:


> The wordless one sounds interesting, but the names are foreign to me. What about familiar composers of the classical era?


Brahms is basically it. I believe someone (an esoteric British composer) once composed a "world requiem" after WWI utilising texts from a large number of cultures from around the world, might be another one to look into.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2014)

Britten's War Requiem, which uses heavily poems written by a soldier in WWI, is not a true requiem mass.


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## Forkisking (Jul 3, 2014)

The really powerful stuff are Mozart's, Verdi's, and Britten's War Requiem. But other beautiful ones are Faure's and Duruflé's.
Other great requiems are John Rutters Requiem.
There's this one that not a lot of people know about written by Carl Rütti. It's a double choir requiem, really powerful orchestra, Soprano and Baritone soloists. Really fantastic work.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Sid James said:


> If you say the Cherubini _Requiem in C _has too much bombast, you may as well say the same thing for large scale choral things by Handel. I think I remember reading in the program notes to the effect that Cherubini also was also not thought of highly by some in the conservative church establishment for writing a work for mixed choir. So his next requiem was for male voices only, it was more traditional (I haven't heard that one, have you HC or anybody else here?)


I also don't believe that Cherubini's requiems exhibit the "bombast" implied above, at least not in the manner that I understand the word. I'd like to point out that when Lesueur introduced the "full" orchestra into the mass, he was also opposed by the more conservative sort. A personal opinion, I admit, but I cannot help but characterize his sacred music as transcendental and inspired. The F Major Mass' opening movement, an astonishing work by any measure, is solidly set in sonata form--a form not contemporaneously associated with the "genre" of sacred music.

I suspect that when Berlioz's witticisms that composers who composed massive fugues simply on the word "amen" were exercising their musical self-importance were targeted specifically at Cherubini, although Berlioz's feud with other Conservatoire institutionalists like Boieldieu are equally valid examples. Yet still, Cherubini's famed stinginess for rules and precision does not translate into a contrived pedantry in his sacred music. Far from it, his sacred music exhibits a certain naturalness common to the greatest masters of the art.

Or so it seems to me.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Is Brahm's German Requiem the only one that is not a mass? Or are there other non-mass requiems?





Nix said:


> I'd recommend Delius' requiem. I believe it's one of the first requiems written by an atheist... the beginning goes someone along the lines of: 'you think you're ascending into heaven, and then you realize there's no god' (not exactly those words, but you get the gist).
> 
> Anyways, it's a great piece... the ending is sickeningly beautiful.


;
I prefers Cherubini's second requiem to the highly acclaimed first one, which I find to be rather bland in comparison.


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