# Franck's Symphony in D minor



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

This symphony has been considered old-fashioned and backwards by some. I simply cannot agree - it's melodies seem to me as very modern and advanced. It's also in my opinion a beautiful work. Have you heard the symphony and did you like it?


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

I have only a few works by Cesar Franck:


Symphony in D Minor (Pierre Monteux/Chicago Symphony Orchestra)
Symphonic Variations for Piano & Orchestra (Rubinstein)
Cello & Piano Sonata in A Major (Emil Klein on cello, Sorin Melinte on piano)
Chorale No. 2 in B Minor (organ piece, John Scott on organ)

All very good. Some consider Franck a little boring, but I don't agree. His symphony is excellent for harmonic richness and use of the technique of recurring theme in each movement. He is perhaps more famous for his works for organ. The organ work mentioned above is from a compilation CD of organ music by various composers, as it's not my favourite instrument. I like his cello and piano sonata.

Topaz


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

I agree as for his organ works. I've heard a few (I have his 'Prélude, fugue et variation' at home) and I think they're very good. I haven't heard a lot of him, but then again, he wasn't a very prolific composer, was he?


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

His only SQ is IMHO one of the greatest composed in the 19th.century. So it is his magnificent
violin sonata (transcribed to viola,cello,even flute!)


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Franck's D minor may be considered "old-fashioned" because of its "organ-like" qualities and use of counterpoint. It may not necessarily be "progressive", but I wouldn't call it old fashioned either. It is a unique piece in the symphonic repertoire, "bridging" the styles of Bruckner, Tchaikovsky and Saint-Saens.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

To me, it has a most urban flavour. If someone asked me to name it, I'd say it's ''A New York Symphony''. Don't know why and I never have been to New York, but the themes are so Broadway-ish and 5th Avenue-ish. And that of New York in early 30s.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Topaz said:


> [*]Cello & Piano Sonata in A Major (Emil Klein on cello, Sorin Melinte on piano)


It's originally a sonata for piano and violin (violin obligato we could say  ). I suggest the Oistrakh-Richter live recording. But there are many more as interesting as this one: Ferras, Thibaud...

The piano transcriptions of his organ works are also enchanting. Nowadays I'm making a lot of publicity to Paul Crossley's cds with piano works by Franck.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Lisztfreak said:


> I'd say it's ''A New York Symphony'' ... the themes are so Broadway-ish and 5th Avenue-ish.


Certainly the snappy little (big) tune in the last movement qualifies. That tune is actually what spoils the symphony for me, because the first movement's dark broody nature makes me hope for a little less glitz and glamour at the end.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Yeah, it does change the image of the work. But it sounds nice when taken separately.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Certainly the snappy little (big) tune in the last movement qualifies. That tune is actually what spoils the symphony for me, because the first movement's dark broody nature makes me hope for a little less glitz and glamour at the end.


It's the romantic trend.  
The light makes its way through the end (the same happens in his violin sonata).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

A great symphony that has fallen off the radar screen.

When I was a kid I couldn't get enough of the performance conducted by Pierre Monteux leading the San Francisco Symphony and later, also loved that of Charles Munch directing the Boston Symphony.

Should be revived!!!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

A bunch of years ago a second string critic for the Boston Globe called it "a symphony only a mother could love." i always enoyed that description. 


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Franck: Symphony in D Minor
Riccardo Muti conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra , who else.


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## WaterRat (May 19, 2015)

I've always liked it. 

My fav recording: Riccardo Chailly conducting the Concertgebouw.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The opening of the symphony is one of the greatest moments in all of music-deeply dark and "misterioso"....like nothing else I've ever heard!!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Liked it from when I first heard it (which admittedly wasn't all that long ago). I have Monteux/CSO on a Living Stereo SACD. I also have HvK from a mega-box EMI put out a few years back.

I have quite a few recordings of the sonata, both on violin and cello. My favorite may be Perlman/Ashkenazy paired quite nicely with the Brahms Horn Trio (with Tuckwell).

As for the "Symphonic Variations," they go best with Ashton's choreography.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Cheers OP for this thread. I only had the symphony and symphonic variations, but now I have all his chamber music too, for under £8.00!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

In the right hands, this symphony comes off very well - 
for me -
Monteux/ChicagoSO - non-pareil - great recording - one of the few recordings I would call "definitive" [never liked that term]- they get it all right...


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

It appears to get very little attention these days, and seemed more popular eons ago when I was in junior high school. A very nice piece nonetheless.

I agree with Heck, Monteux's performance sits at the top. Other favorites of mine are Klemperer/New Phiharmonia and Munch/Boston.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

beetzart said:


> Cheers OP for this thread. I only had the symphony and symphonic variations, but now I have all his chamber music too, for under £8.00!


OP not been seen since 2009


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

No need to start a new thread. 

This is an outstanding symphony that has apparently fallen out of favor with music directors. I am not sure my local orchestra has ever performed it since I have been attending. Too bad, I put this symphony right there with Saint-Saens organ symphony, Berlioz Fantastique, Bizet's symphony. You know, certainly not Beethoven's 9th, but they are excellent works in themselves.

As far as version, there are a number of good ones. I like good sound with this one, so if it is dated sounding it is probably not for me. I currently have Maazels recording and Stokowski. Both different, but good.


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## licorice stick (Nov 24, 2014)

A unique and interesting piece. Where I've lived, it has been programmed at a frequency consistent with its stature in the repertoire. I agree that it is level with Saint-Saens 3, Symphonie Fantastique and Bizet's Symphony in C -- although the average quality of the pieces is the same, I think that the variance in quality is higher in the Franck and Berlioz than the Saint-Saens and Bizet. I used to find it somewhat boring and predictable, but further encounters have raised it in my esteem. My main criticisms are sluggish, meandering chromaticism and overblown melodrama in parts, but this is counterbalanced by a slew of ingenious moments and an unparalleled, brooding atmosphere. In particular, I love how the strings flit around the insidious woodwind melody of the second movement.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Great little symphony. Stirring themes in the first movement, Wagnerian crescendos, organ-like weight. His string quartet is very fine, and I think the reputation of the marvellous violin sonata is secure by now (one would hope at least).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is a work I love. I'm not sure it is well served by being grouped together with Bizet's early Symphony in C (a charming work but not remotely similar to Franck's symphony) and the Symphonie Fantastique (aesthetically almost the exact opposite. Fair enough, I suppose to link it to Saint-Saens 3 but it (the Franck) is a much stronger work IMO. There are actually a number of excellent versions out there (as well as some turgid ones). The Monteux is famous (justly) but Munch and van Otterloo both recorded excellent accounts. All three play the work at white heat and yet are quite different to each other (so you could have all three!). Of the more recent ones I really like Herreweghe's lovely take on it and Janowski's is a reliable modern recommendation. I'm sure there are others that I haven't heard (Bychkov? Bernstein?).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

One of my first loves, musically speaking. Is there any more joyous, life-affirming ending to a symphony? Franck rarely gets the credit he deserves - it was Franck, not Liszt, who invented the symphonic poem (Ce qu’on entend sur la montagne ). It was Franck who demonstrated how a 3-movement symphony can work by combining the slow movement with the scherzo - a model that would be followed by many composers after him. I can't remember the last time I heard a live performance of the symphony, it's been that long. Current favorite recordings: Bernstein (DG), Arming, and Paray.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> It is a work I love. I'm not sure it is well served by being grouped together with Bizet's early Symphony in C (a charming work but not remotely similar to Franck's symphony) and the Symphonie Fantastique (aesthetically almost the exact opposite. Fair enough, I suppose to link it to Saint-Saens 3 but it (the Franck) is a much stronger work IMO. There are actually a number of excellent versions out there (as well as some turgid ones). The Monteux is famous (justly) but Munch and van Otterloo both recorded excellent accounts. All three play the work at white heat and yet are quite different to each other (so you could have all three!). Of the more recent ones I really like Herreweghe's lovely take on it and Janowski's is a reliable modern recommendation. I'm sure there are others that I haven't heard (Bychkov? Bernstein?).


I didn't intend to link the works according to musical quality, I am not that knowledgeable. They fall together only in terms of popularity as far as music directors frequency to choose them for performance. Of course I only know what happens in this area of the US. Chicago symphony orchestra did have Fantastique 5 years ago, but the others?


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Love this symphony. Very haunting at beginning and a beautiful melodious final movement. 

Mine is performed by 

Philadelphia Orchestra
Conducted by Riccardo Muti

He never lets me down


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

It is a powerful work, the snootiness of the critics is more about them and their hivemind nature. If there is a bandwagon, critics (rarely the most perceptive of listeners or people or in any way knowledgeable) will jump on it. The Franck is at times a little overblown, a little 'comic book' in my view, but it is effective all the same. Just like Richard Strauss can be a little overblown (let alone Mahler), yet he rarely seems to gather opprobrium for that these days. The symphony is well constructed, wears its cyclic visage without too much strain. It is consistently interesting.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Eusebius12 said:


> It is a powerful work, the snootiness of the critics is more about them and their hivemind nature. If there is a bandwagon, critics (rarely the most perceptive of listeners or people or in any way knowledgeable) will jump on it. The Franck is at times a little overblown, a little 'comic book' in my view, but it is effective all the same. Just like Richard Strauss can be a little overblown (let alone Mahler), yet he rarely seems to gather opprobrium for that these days. The symphony is well constructed, wears its cyclic visage without too much strain. It is consistently interesting.


Agreed. I like Mahler, but overblown can fit him. I find he almost tries too hard to be unique. I mean, nursery rhyme, giant croquet mallet, calypso band? Not that any of this spoils the music for me, I smile when those things happen.

Back to Franck, is it "Commoners" music? So it gets ignored.?


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Franck also has the excellent Piano Concerto No. 2 that doesn't get played. Around here they are all obsessed with performing Tchaikovsky's excellent PC over and over.


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## Rmathuln (Mar 21, 2018)

Along with Monteux, Martinon, and Herreweghe I find a 1970 Kondrashin recording in the Concertgebouw Anthology quite satisfying.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I've always liked this symphony. I especially admire the way Franck managed to imbue the principal themes of its three movements with wildly contrasting personalities while yet constructing them from the same material, from the symphony's grim opening statement — Diametric contrast within a fundamental unity, a timeless aesthetic ideal. To put the symphony in historical context, I don't think anything is more instructive than listening to it right after hearing Brahms's Third, which was premiered and heard by Franck two years before he composed the D Minor (if memory serves). You know that cloudy passage in the finale of the Franck with the harps and horns quoting the symphony's opening?; as though looking back over the years into a misty past? That echoes exactly the same device used by Brahms at the end of his Third Symphony; Except that Brahms uses string tremolo rather than harps to create the dream-sequence effect. Brahms too quotes his symphony's opening idea in a disembodied, retrospective haze.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Franck also has the excellent Piano Concerto No. 2 that doesn't get played. Around here they are all obsessed with performing Tchaikovsky's excellent PC over and over.


It is an attractive work but it is a juvenile one that Franck withdrew and certainly doesn't have the composer's distinctive voice.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

I really do like this symphony. It has a great opening and a great mood which places it in the same sonic landscape as lord of the rings i think. For me it is a work which starts off incredibly well, has a great and unique feeling to it and boasts great themes. But imo after the 1st movement it gets worse... I dont like the second movement and the third while possessing a really catchy theme and great recurring themes in the style of Francks cyclical form is imo overblown and stodgy. Quite the same with Sibelius Violin Concerto and Elgars Cello concerto.... Also the orchestration is actually really bad which doesnt help keeping attention to the work. I dont understand why people here consider it a better work than Saint-Saens or Berlioz? Probably because it sounds far more German (aka Brahms, Bruckner) than those two other very French symphonies.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^ I haven't seen anyone claiming it is better than Berlioz (presumably Symphonie Fantastique) - I must have missed that. But I certainly do feel that there it has far more in the Franck than in SS3 (Organ) - which, much as I enjoy it on its own terms, is rather thin and overblown to my ear. I am not with you in hearing the Franck work as particularly Germanic, except perhaps in tone.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Hmm. A divided camp. This may be why it isn't performed often.

Maybe it is a very Presidential work. Has faults some people can't abide, but popular nonetheless.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of the first classical recordings I had ever heard was when I was 5-6 years old. It was an LP lying on the living room carpet next to a primitive Victrola. It was the Franck Symphony in D minor with the San Francisco Symphony led by Pierre Monteux. I was transfixed. My music listening path had just been chosen!


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> It is an attractive work but it is a juvenile one that Franck withdrew and certainly doesn't have the composer's distinctive voice.


Juvenile? I share common ground, hence the attraction.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^ I like the work, too. But I do think we can discriminate between things we like and can recognise that some things achieve so much more than others.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

You should try his early Piano Trios. You wouldn't think they were written by a teenager.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Again, attractive. A fine piece of music. The boy had talent. But it doesn't sound like Franck. It doesn't have his distinctive voice and, IMO, it doesn't have the emotional depth we associate with his mature music. That doesn't mean it should be thrown in the bin - it is just a comparison.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Again, attractive. A fine piece of music. The boy had talent. But it doesn't sound like Franck. It doesn't have his distinctive voice and, IMO, it doesn't have the emotional depth we associate with his mature music. That doesn't mean it should be thrown in the bin - it is just a comparison.


Fully understand what you mean yet I try to rationalise everything. He was one is 500 million. The percentage of people who could write music to that standard is miniscule throughout history. He was a very special person indeed.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The least known of the great composers.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm a Franckophile, so yes I like Symphony in D. As much as I enjoy listening to records, I think the proof of the pudding with any work is in live performance. I've seen it twice. One time it was thrilling (in the small Teatru Manuel in Malta) and another time it was rather mundane in a large hall (MUPA in Budapest).

The latter performance, and the evening of it, provided me with two trusty anecdotes. One involves nudity so I'll just give you the concert-related one. After the first movement finished, one person in the stalls side boxes, thought it worthy of a few claps. The conductor Zoltán Cocsis slowly turned to face the man and gave a stone-faced deep and gracious bow to him. It's not often you hear laughter during movements of a symphony. Needless to say there was plenty of applause after the second movement, but it ruined the focus of the work.

Franck's major underrated piece in my opinion is actually his longest work(? not sure), the symphonic poem Psyche, which features a choir and big orchestra. I adore it. It sounds a lot like Rachmaninov, but of course it's the other way round as this predates the Russian by 50 years!

If anyone ever says to you "I love Rachmaninov, what else should I listen to?" the answer is surely Franck.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Psyche and also The Beatitudes! Most everything from Franck is underrated, unfortunately. I know many music lovers who only know the Symphony and nothing else. I played in a performance of The Accursed Huntsman last month; that was a real treat. Great fun to play.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Franck's melodic style is peculiar. His tunes tend to circle sequentially around a few notes and don't want to break free of them. They seem penned in, bound, pinioned - and this is true both of motifs intended for development and of more extended melodies. The way his oddly constrained, diatonic melodies contrast with his chromatic developments is characteristic. I have to say I find the basic material a little thin, and don't exactly look forward to repeated statements of it. Interestingly, I seem not to have this problem with his Violin Sonata or a number of other works, but they aren't trying for such a grand effect; the fat, brassy plushness of the symphony's orchestration also signals a "big statement," and the somewhat monotonous sound picture is another reason I find the work as a whole a bit bombastic and unmoving despite many lovely things in it. 

Why, by the way, does Franck cut off the allegro exposition when it's barely under way and return to the slow introductory material? Can you think of another symphony with such a "false start"? It seems illogical to me, but maybe I need to listen again.


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## arkadinho (Mar 21, 2016)

Monteux + Chicago sound is 'the' combination made in heaven but also check Kondrashin & Bavarian RSO. Me like mucho.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

arkadinho said:


> Monteux + Chicago sound is 'the' combination made in heaven...


Indeed, great recording, wonderful performance...everything goes right....Toscsnini/NBC is good too, but Monteux takes the prize....Ormandy/Phila was my first exposure...not bad as I remember it..


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Monteux is the classic version, but the sound? I have the original CD and then the later SACD and both sadly are really overloaded in the loudest sections. A shame, because RCA got much better sound for Reiner. Paray on Mercury is quite good, too.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Took me a long time to get into this piece as I tend to share Brahms' reaction to French music overall, but this symphony has become an exception. The version which clicked for me was Beecham's with the French National Radio Orchestra.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Monteux, yes, but also Van Otterloo, Stokowski, Beecham and Munch. And then there is Herreweghe - a recording that I love but that is rarely noticed and isn't even mentioned on the sleeve cover:


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> Monteux, yes, but also Van Otterloo, Stokowski, Beecham and Munch. And then there is Herreweghe - a recording that I love but that is rarely noticed and isn't even mentioned on the sleeve cover:


I bought that recently for the Requiem. A bonus that it also has Symphony in D. Haven't listened yet but will get to it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ It's a good Requiem as well. I found the Franck a very pleasant and rather fresh surprise as I wasn't expecting much from it.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I had no idea that there was a recording by Herreweghe. It seems to me that the piece was more popular until the 1970s but recorded far less in the last few decades. Whereas everyone recorded it in the 50s and 60s.


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