# Brahms and Clara Schumann detested the music of Liszt, Why?



## ScipioAfricanus

I understand the old, Brahms vs Wagner debate. But even Brahms admired Wagner's Die Meistersinger. But both Brahms and Clara Schumann heavily detested the music of Liszt. They couldn't find anything remotely nice to say, not of his Hungarian Rhapsodies, his piano sonata, his etudes, his song transcriptions, his symphonic poems etc. And we know for a fact that Liszt's tone poems with new harmonies greatly influenced Wagner.
Can we attribute this to jealousy? I think so. I know for a fact that Clara Schumann was very jealous of both Liszt and Wagner. Heck one time Wagner invited her to a staging of Das Rheingold out of professional courtesy to her and her dead husband. Clara after the performance wrote a letter to Brahms ripping into the music of poor Wagner. She wrote "How posterity will marvel at an aberration like this spreading all over the world!"


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## Huilunsoittaja

The Music philosophy battles of the 19th century!!!

Basically, Brahms believed in abstract music (only write symphonies, overtures). Liszt and Wagner believed in programmatic music (only write tone poems, operas). Those two philosophies clashed very much, each side bitterly criticizing the other.


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## ScipioAfricanus

But Brahms called himself the best Wagnerite there is. It wasn't a matter of Brahms vs Wagner, but Brahms vs Liszt, and Hanslick vs Wagner.


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## Webernite

Could it be because... Liszt's music isn't as good as Wagner's?


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## toucan

Instead of speculating, post the letters by the Schumann's. Then we can discuss their opinion of Liszt...


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## Guest

No, no, toucan! Discussion forums like this aren't places for facts or knowledge. This is the place for idle speculation and baseless opinions.

You should know that!!

Otherwise, lots of people detest lots of things for lots of reasons. Sometimes those people are composers. Sometimes the things are pieces of music. Nothing particularly noteworthy (as it were!) about that, surely.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Are you guys saying that the letter doesn't exist or didn't exist? The excerpt I wrote came from Brahms biograpy written by Swafford. Ok, I'm speculating, the letter is not real, hence the excerpt is not real. All I did was speculate.


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## ScipioAfricanus

http://books.google.com/books?id=BK...=onepage&q=brahms, the best wagnerite&f=false

The above is Brahms calling himself the best Wagnerite. Oops, its speculation.


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## ScipioAfricanus

more speculation. This time by Wikipedia

*She was initially interested in the works of Liszt, but later developed an outright hostility to him. She ceased to play any of his works; she suppressed her husband's dedication to Liszt of his Fantasie in C major when she published Schumann's complete works; and she refused to attend a Beethoven centenary festival in Vienna in 1870 when she heard that Liszt and Richard Wagner would be participating.[2]

She was particularly scathing of Wagner. Of Tannhäuser, she said that he "wears himself out in atrocities"; she described Lohengrin as "horrible"; and she wrote that Tristan und Isolde was "the most repugnant thing I have ever seen or heard in all my life".[2]*

In 1878 she was appointed teacher of the piano at the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt am Main, a post she held until 1892, and in which she contributed greatly to the improvement of modern piano playing technique.

*She held Anton Bruckner, whose 7th Symphony she heard in 1885, in very low esteem. She wrote to Brahms, describing it as "a horrible piece"*. But she was more impressed with Richard Strauss's early Symphony in F minor in 1887.[2]

Clara Schumann played her last public concert in Frankfurt on March 12, 1891. The last work she played was Brahms's Variations on a Theme by Haydn, in the piano-duet version.

She suffered a stroke on March 26, 1896, dying on May 20, at age 77. She is buried at Bonn's Alter Friedhof (Old Cemetery) with her husband.

She was portrayed onscreen by Katharine Hepburn in the 1947 film Song of Love, in which Paul Henreid played Robert Schumann and Robert Walker starred as a young Johannes Brahms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Schumann


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## ScipioAfricanus

Hopefully I have proved that
1. Brahms considered himself a wagnerite.
2. Clara Schumann hated the music of Liszt, Wagner and Bruckner.


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## World Violist

Why can't it just be a matter of personal taste? I don't like the music of Mozart, and I don't feel the need to explain why. Why does Boulez hate Shostakovich? He's given many reasons, but the point is that he just doesn't, and there's no point in arguing.

Anyway, yeah, the Schumanns didn't like Liszt because his music was a lot of show. Brahms even fell asleep on first hearing of the B minor sonata played by the composer (yes, I've read Swafford's biography too).


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## ScipioAfricanus

Who determines what showy is from what is musical? Liszt opened up the possibilities of the piano in terms of playing and composition to that which is beyond the scope of what the Schumanns' thought possible. Heck I listened to Liszt's Pilgrimmage suite, and is blown away by his insight and sensitivities, eventhough Schumann was the supposedly sensitive romantic. Check out Liszt's Au Lac de Wallenstadt and his Le Jeux D'eaux A' La Villa D'este from the same suite.

I deem the Schumanns to be conventional bores bent up on petty jealousy which prevented them from seeing other people as composing good music without their influence. Heck, look how Clara commented about Bruckner's Symphony no 7. The Herzogenberg's commented similarly. It was like they had to protect their petty dukedom from Bruckner and Liszt, least Bruckner and Liszt swallowed them whole.


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## ScipioAfricanus

World Violist said:


> Brahms even fell asleep on first hearing of the B minor sonata played by the composer (yes, I've read Swafford's biography too).


I thought it was because he was tired from the long journey that he endured on his way to Liszt.


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## World Violist

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I thought it was because he was tired from the long journey that he endured on his way to Liszt.


Might have been. But I'd imagine that if he'd thought at all well about the sonata he would have stayed awake the extra 20 or whatever minutes just to hear it and then sleep... I think the whole journey thing was just an excuse:devil:


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## ScipioAfricanus

World Violist said:


> Might have been. But I'd imagine that if he'd thought at all well about the sonata he would have stayed awake the extra 20 or whatever minutes just to hear it and then sleep... I think the whole journey thing was just an excuse:devil:


Since in his youth the poor chap was irrascible. Its a good thing Liszt was very gracious unlike Wagner, or else Brahms' career would have been severely impeded.


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## Webernite

What makes you think Brahms had even heard these obscure showpieces by Liszt? He met Liszt a few times, and some of his students, but I reckon the only works of Liszt's that Brahms was really familiar with were the tone poems, and we all know why he disliked _those_ - he was against programme music. Many of Liszt's other works weren't even published until the twentieth century, and even now most of his output is unkown except to his fanclub.


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## World Violist

Webernite said:


> What makes you think Brahms had even heard these obscure showpieces by Liszt? He met Liszt a few times, and some of his students, but I reckon the only works of Liszt's that Brahms was really familiar with were the tone poems, and we all know why he disliked _those_ - he was against programme music. Many of Liszt's other works weren't even published until the twentieth century, and even now most of his output is unkown except to his fanclub.


Because Joachim was there when Brahms fell asleep to the B minor sonata. Obviously there has to be a source to make it into a biography. So yes, Brahms did hear the sonata; I'm not sure about the other obscure showpieces though.


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## Webernite

Oh, I know he heard the sonata - or slept through it, in any case. But that seems likely to be the exception to the rule. I faintly remember a story of Wagner saying to Liszt, "You know, I stole one of my melodies from your music," to which Liszt replied, "At least now someone will hear it."


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## ScipioAfricanus

Webernite said:


> only works of Liszt's that Brahms was really familiar with were the tone poems, .


and even in that he wasn't sincere. I believe when Brahms looked deeper, and I believe he did look deeper, he found that music couldn't help but represent the external environment of life, otherwise he wouldn't have given directions such as Allegro Maestoso, poco mesto, adante etc, neither would have used the fate motive for his 1st symphony.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Webernite said:


> Oh, I know he heard the sonata - or slept through it, in any case. But that seems likely to be the exception to the rule. I faintly remember a story of Wagner saying to Liszt, "You know, I stole one of my melodies from your music," to which Liszt replied, "At least now someone will hear it."


Liszt was too deep for the superficial shallow moronic music fans of the 19th century :tiphat:


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## Ravellian

I don't think it makes a great deal whether or not one composer cares for another's music... however, C. Schumann's comment about _Tristan_ makes it hard for me to take her seriously anymore.


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## Huilunsoittaja

ScipioAfricanus said:


> But Brahms called himself the best Wagnerite there is. It wasn't a matter of Brahms vs Wagner, but Brahms vs Liszt, and Hanslick vs Wagner.


Yes, that's true. The Critics were always in the center of the fights.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Ravellian said:


> I don't think it makes a great deal whether or not one composer cares for another's music... however, C. Schumann's comment about _Tristan_ makes it hard for me to take her seriously anymore.


same here. I think her opinions were motivated by her attempt to protect the status of Brahms as being Beethoven's true heir and her late husband's significance.

What did it for me, is her opinion of Bruckner's 7th.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Yes, that's true. The Critics were always in the center of the fights.


and this is why no monument is ever built to a critic  they are all sour individuals.


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## Webernite

ScipioAfricanus said:


> same here. I think her opinions were motivated by her attempt to protect the status of Brahms as being Beethoven's true heir and her late husband's significance.
> 
> What did it for me, is her opinion of Bruckner's 7th.


I think it's more likely that she was motivated by how shocking Wagnerian chromaticism was in those days.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Webernite said:


> I think it's more likely that she was motivated by how shocking Wagnerian chromaticism was in those days.


But Wagner always put his Chromaticism within the context of music. It wasn't Chromaticism for the sake of Chromaticism. Even King Ludwig of Bavaria understood this, and many other Wagnerites.
I think the jealousy of Clara cannot be escaped.


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## AmateurComposer

Please let me quote from the following book.


Johannes Brahms, Life and Letters
by
Styra Avins
ISBN 0-19-924773-0

Appendix A: Johannes Brahms and Clara Schumann


"Clara's idealism was matched by Joachim and Brahms. Rubinstein once referred to the pair as 'High Priests of Virtue.' All three of them broke with Franz Liszt on matters essentially philosophical and aesthetics, with detrimental effects especially for Brahms. It was not the only time their idealism triumphed over their self interest. Clara refused to attend or to participate in any concert which Wagner's music was being played. She and Joachim consistently refused to play popular virtuoso pieces merely to please audiences, and Joachim gave up a lucrative concert in England so as not to prostitute his art, Brahms voicing his approval. And they all refused to co-operate in a festival of the music of Robert Schumann, because the wrong people were organizing it."

Brahms and Liszt appreciated, but did not perform, each other's music.

It is my understanding that Brahms, Clara, and Joachim did not approve the moral behaviour of Liszt and Wagner. Hence the break.

By the way, the purpose of this Appendix is to demonstrate why the author believes that the relationship between Johannes Brahms and Clara Schumann was strictly and purely platonic and that no romantic relationship whatsoever took place between them.


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## Webernite

ScipioAfricanus said:


> But Wagner always put his Chromaticism within the context of music. It wasn't Chromaticism for the sake of Chromaticism. Even King Ludwig of Bavaria understood this, and many other Wagnerites.
> I think the jealousy of Clara cannot be escaped.


Putting chromaticism "within the context of music" doesn't mean anything. You don't seem to understand how shocking _Tristan_ was when it was first performed. It was at least as shocking as the music of Schoenberg. People fainted. Nearly all the reviews were hysterical. This may seem strange, but that is only because your own ears as so used to chromaticism. If you are going to say that Clara Schumann was "jealous" of Wagner, you might as well say that anyone who doesn't like _Pierrot Lunaire_ must be jealous of Schoenberg. It's just not true. They simply don't like the music.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Ludwig of Bavaria understood Tristan. Bruckner understood Tristan, Tchaikovsky understood Tristan, and Liszt understood Tristan. Clara Schumann wasn't a layman. She was a very capable musician, hence being able to appreciate music on a higher level than the local. And I think you are pushing the point too much by referencing Schoenberg. Wagner's Tristan is more like Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata to the new ears of the early 19th century or Mozart's Dissonant String Quartet.


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## Webernite

Tschaikovsky said, "The work does not give me any pleasure." Strauss only came to terms with it later in life. Debussy clearly had mixed feelings. But, in any case, if you read the rest of what Clara Schumann wrote, it is obvious she objects to _Tristan_ more on moral grounds than on musical grounds. When she wrote, for instance, that "every feeling of decency is violated" by it, she is referring to the plot, not the music.

And I do think the comparison with Schoenberg is apt. Consider that even _Verklärte Nacht_ was highly controversial, and its premiere was more than two decades after _Tristan_'s.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Brahms and Clara Schumann detested the music of Liszt, Why?

Because every time Brahms and Clara were trying to do the nasty behind a window curtain Schumann began playing Liszt's _Mephisto Waltz_! 
The lovers found it v e r y disconcerting...


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## superhorn

Boulez hates or at least sneers at the music of many composers, especially contemporary composers who have remained tonal. He described the John Adams opera The Death of Klinghoffer as "bad movie music",for example. 
Remember the arrogant statement he made many years ago saying that any composer who did not adhere to rigorous serialism was "useless" ,thus dismissing the music of such great composers as Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Copland, Britten, Barber, and others as worthless? 
But whose music gets played more often? He even dismissed the music of his great teacher Messiaen as "brothel music" !


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## ScipioAfricanus

AmateurComposer said:


> It is my understanding that Brahms, Clara, and Joachim did not approve the moral behaviour of Liszt and Wagner. Hence the break.
> 
> .


Brahms, Clara and Joachim weren't paragon's of virtue either. That being said, I could understand disagreement based on aesthetics and philosophy, but at the end of the day, music is music, and good music always wins out.
But to snub a Schumann festival because the "wrong" people were organizing it shows arrogance. What is more important? The person being honored or the person honoring?


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## ScipioAfricanus

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Brahms and Clara Schumann detested the music of Liszt, Why?
> 
> Because every time Brahms and Clara were trying to do the nasty behind a window curtain Schumann began playing Liszt's _Mephisto Waltz_!
> The lovers found it v e r y disconcerting...


 I would agree with their sentiments on the Mephisto Waltz.


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## Webernite

ScipioAfricanus said:


> But to snub a Schumann festival because the "wrong" people were organizing it shows arrogance. What is more important? The person being honored or the person honoring?


Even that doesn't sound very convincing, given that it was Schumann's wife and Schumann's protege who were doing the snubbing.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Webernite said:


> Even that doesn't sound very convincing, given that it was Schumann's wife and Schumann's protege who were doing the snubbing.


snottish jerks they were. Schumann's wife and his protege sound like they would do well to make cameo appearances on Real Housewives and Desperate Housewives.


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## AmateurComposer

AmateurComposer said:


> "Clara's idealism was matched by Joachim and Brahms. Rubinstein once referred to the pair as 'High Priests of Virtue.'"





ScipioAfricanus said:


> Brahms, Clara and Joachim weren't paragon's of virtue either.


The author of the book which I quoted provides a reference in her bibliography to the statement of Rubinstein regarding the characters of Johannes Brahms and Clara Schumann. Since your statement is in disagreement with the one by Rubinstein, can you provide evidence to support your argument?



ScipioAfricanus said:


> But to snub a Schumann festival because the "wrong" people were organizing it shows arrogance. What is more important? The person being honored or the person honoring?


Hypocrisy is a factor in "honouring" ceremonies. In response to your question, comes to my mind the revulsion of the public to the news that a murderer, before he was caught, "expressed" sympathy and consolations to the families of his victims. While admittedly this is an extreme case, the same applies on smaller scales.


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## scytheavatar

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Brahms, Clara and Joachim weren't paragon's of virtue either.


What non-virtuous acts were these 3 guilty of? I hope you are not going to repeat those unsubstantiated claims about Brahms and Clara having an affair, cause it amounts to character assassination.


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## Toccata

I have just completed reading through this thread and I can't find anything of interest in it which I didn't already know about the Schumanns, Brahms, Liszt, Wagner. The suggestion that Clara's dislike of Liszt's works was based on "jealousy" is a complete fabrication. She simply didn't like the man and his music. That's all there is to it.


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## ScipioAfricanus

scytheavatar said:


> What non-virtuous acts were these 3 guilty of? I hope you are not going to repeat those unsubstantiated claims about Brahms and Clara having an affair, cause it amounts to character assassination.


Clara carried on a relationship with another man, whilst hiding it from Brahms. She then dumped the poor guy when she realized that he wasn't of any great talent
Brahms despised getting attached with women for marriage and as a result slept with prostitutes..
I will stop here.


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## Toccata

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Clara carried on a relationship with another man, whilst hiding it from Brahms. She then dumped the poor guy when she realized that he wasn't of any great talent
> Brahms despised getting attached with women for marriage and as a result slept with prostitutes..
> I will stop here.


I shouldn't think anyone is remotely interested in these grubby little stories. I'm most certainly not. So why not pack it up now before you get a bad reputation?


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## ScipioAfricanus

Toccata said:


> I shouldn't think anyone is remotely interested in these grubby little stories. I'm most certainly not. So why not pack it up now before you get a bad reputation?


You asked what non virtuous acts the 3 were guilty of? You should have not asked and I would not have answered.


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## Toccata

ScipioAfricanus said:


> You asked what non virtuous acts the 3 were guilty of? You should have not asked and I would not have answered.


It wasn't me. Look again.

It has become clearer each time you make a contribution that your primary aim in this thread is to muddy the names of Brahms and Clara Schumann. People who don't know or care much about this aspect of classical music history probably won't care in the least about your smutty allegations. People who do know about this part of history (like me) will simply find your stories to be pathetic. So, if I may, I'd like to suggest you find something else to waste your time on, because you aren't making any progress on this one.


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## Rasa

Toccata said:


> I shouldn't think anyone is remotely interested in these grubby little stories. I'm most certainly not. So why not pack it up now before you get a bad reputation?


What are you talking about? It's the best bits of musical history, instead of this constant deification of the great composers, intellectual paradigmes we should all aspire to.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Toccata said:


> So, if I may, I'd like to suggest you find something else to waste your time on, because you aren't making any progress on this one.


I wouldn't find anything else to waste my time on. On the contrary I suggest you find something else to waste your time on and not me.


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## AmateurComposer

Toccata and ScipioAfricanus, I agree with both of you - there is no point in wasting time. Until I see evidence to the contrary I prefer to accept the word of Ms. Styra Avins who thoroughly researched the subject and published her opinion with rich bibliography of references in her book, the one I quoted from in my earlier post.


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## superhorn

Clara and Brahms also disliked the music of Liszt because they found it cheap and tawdry,all flash and no substance,as well as lacking in academically correct form.
Of course, Liszt's music is not all surface glitz, and some of his music has genuine substance,such as the Faust symphony,among other things.


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## brianwalker

Webernite said:


> Putting chromaticism "within the context of music" doesn't mean anything. You don't seem to understand how shocking _Tristan_ was when it was first performed. It was at least as shocking as the music of Schoenberg._ People fainted. Nearly all the reviews were hysterical._ *This may seem strange, but that is only because your own ears as so used to chromaticism. I*f you are going to say that Clara Schumann was "jealous" of Wagner, you might as well say that anyone who doesn't like _Pierrot Lunaire_ must be jealous of Schoenberg. It's just not true. They simply don't like the music.


Webernite, are you implying that an ear inured to chromaticism will find the music less powerful? Were the reviews of hysterical praise?

One of the cliches of musical history is that a work, when first introduced, is not understood and not appreciated, and that its force and power is only felt on the audiences gradually.


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## micro

That was a nice peaceful thread


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## Pugg

micro said:


> That was a nice peaceful thread


Not being used for four years


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## DeepR

They probably heard only a few of his works and didn't/couldn't explore his music beyond that. 
It's still the same today. 99% of the time Liszt gets trashed it's because of superficial judgements based on hearing a few of his bravura/showy pieces.


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## Nevum

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Hopefully I have proved that
> 1. Brahms considered himself a wagnerite.
> 2. Clara Schumann hated the music of Liszt, Wagner and Bruckner.


Yes, you did. And I think thats fascinating info.


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## gardibolt

I'm reading Alan Walker's massive biography of Liszt currently, and he makes the point that while Liszt was generous of his time, prestige and yes money to other composers and musicians (including Berlioz, Chopin, the Schumanns and many others), they all turned on him, sometimes virulently. Walker suggests that it may be that in their egoism they couldn't stand to see him helping others beside themselves.


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## micro

gardibolt said:


> I'm reading Alan Walker's massive biography of Liszt currently, and he makes the point that while Liszt was generous of his time, prestige and yes money to other composers and musicians (including Berlioz, Chopin, the Schumanns and many others), they all turned on him, sometimes virulently. Walker suggests that it may be that in their egoism they couldn't stand to see him helping others beside themselves.


Brahms was wealthy and could have been much wealthier if he did some operas.


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## Couchie

Clara was a standoffish conservative prude, considerably moreso than her husband, and interpreted the New German School as being a direct affront to the legacy of her insane and then dead husband.

Brahms was a rube, a "giftless ba$tard", who had no understanding whatsoever of the piano (immediately evident to any pianist playing his works, obviously written by a drunk), and infinitely jealous of Liszt's superior craft in both writing and playing piano music.

Clara and Brahms were obviously in love, but unable to act on it without bringing shame to Robert, they took out their frustrations on the more talented.

None of this is speculation.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Couchie said:


> Clara was a standoffish conservative prude, considerably moreso than her husband, and interpreted the New German School as being a direct affront to the legacy of her insane and then dead husband.
> 
> Brahms was a rube, a "giftless ba$tard", who had no understanding whatsoever of the piano (immediately evident to any pianist playing his works, obviously written by a drunk), and infinitely jealous of Liszt's superior craft in both writing and playing piano music.
> 
> Clara and Brahms were obviously in love, but unable to act on it without bringing shame to Robert, they took out their frustrations on the more talented.
> 
> None of this is speculation.


No Spectulation at all - like I said in my very informative "Stupid Thread Idea's"

Brahms was Brahms & Liszt, say no more...............


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## brianvds

micro said:


> Brahms was wealthy and could have been much wealthier if he did some operas.


It's difficult to conceive of an opera by Brahms. But I'm biased - one of the reasons I am a Brahms fan is precisely that he didn't waste time with opera.


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## KenOC

Brahms considered writing a musical comedy, ending with a can-can spectacular. Unfortunately, he thought the better of it. His surviving correspondence with George Gershwin and Busby Berkeley is revealing.


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## BoggyB

Clara Schumann. Husband Robert to the left of her, Lizst to the right... After years of listening to those gentlemen's compositions, no wonder she became so deranged as to dislike Bruckner 7.


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## brianvds

KenOC said:


> Brahms considered writing a musical comedy, ending with a can-can spectacular. Unfortunately, he thought the better of it. His surviving correspondence with George Gershwin and Busby Berkeley is revealing.


*Fortunately*, he thought the better of it.

There, fixed it for you. :tiphat:


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## micro

Couchie said:


> Brahms was a rube, a "giftless ba$tard", who had no understanding whatsoever of the piano


......................


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## brianvds

micro said:


> ......................
> View attachment 88711


That was sort of my reaction too. 



> "Wagner is a meme." -- Johannes Brahms in 1869.


"The problem with quotes on the internet is that they are often misattributed."

--Abraham Lincoln


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## EdwardBast

Maybe they heard the symphonic poems?


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