# Does anyone else remaster their classical recordings (as I do?)



## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

I find that a lot of classical releases are very anemic, so I often remaster them to give them more "oomph".
Here's an example:

Before










After










And this wasn't even an especially egregious example of anemic mastering on a release. I've come across far worse IMO.

Everyone has different tastes, but to my ears, when I remaster, the recordings come out sounding a lot better. Not just louder, but more body and more presence.

Does anyone else do this?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Sometimes, but I mostly add more instrument sections I enjoy / reorchestrate.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm not sure that I'd say 'remastering', mostly boosting volume. What I do see is some clipping which is definitely not good.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

cybernaut said:


> I find that a lot of classical releases are very anemic, so I often remaster them to give them more "oomph".
> Here's an example:
> 
> Before
> ...


Do you use compression or are you just gain changing? It looks like there's some compression in the re-worked wave.
Tweaking pro recordings is not something I would consider doing even though I have the tools to do it. I've always been wary of compression in my own music's mixing because if it is done badly as I'm sure you'll know, it can squeeze the dynamic life out a piece and bring the noise floor up to unacceptable levels imv.

,,,ahh yes, it does look as though there's some clipping too. Good spot @Becca


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I just turn it up if it need more "oomph."

Dynamic range is your friend.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I'm not sure about remastering, but I use a little EQ. I leave the mids pretty much flat, but have a little boost to the highs and lows. Not much, but just enough to fill out the overall soundstage.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

All you're doing with remastering is reducing the peak dynamic range, which means transient peaks will lose all of their punch. This is more noticeable in rock and jazz or any genre with heavy percussion, but it's certainly noticeable in classical as well. This practice can be acceptable if you're wanting to listen on a device without proper amplification (like most mobile devices) or perhaps even on a system with very inefficient speakers/headphones, but I'd much rather simply invest in a proper amplifiers and speakers/headphones that are sensitive enough to get as loud as I need them.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I edit every audio track downloaded from places like Presto Music and Hyperion using Sound Forge, mainly to raise the volume because some tracks are not loud enough when played on a iPhone with earbuds. In doing so, I always play back the louder passages to make sure I haven’t created clipping/distortion indicated by an obvious blunting of the peaks and a moving scale provided by Sound Forge that shows peaks turning red when clipping occurs.

Also, due to trying to protect my aging ears, I actually reduce the volume of some peaks (essentially reducing dynamic range) so that they don’t blast all of a sudden through the earbuds.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Also, due to trying to protect my aging ears, I actually reduce the volume of some peaks (essentially reducing dynamic range) so that they don’t blast all of a sudden through the earbuds.


I don't think you have to worry much about protecting your hearing with classical music. The peaks don't last long enough to cause hearing loss. It's not like you're ever going to get the volume loud enough as if you were in the pit next to the brass section!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I don't think you have to worry much about protecting your hearing with classical music. The peaks don't last long enough to cause hearing loss. It's not like you're ever going to get the volume loud enough as if you were in the pit next to the brass section!


The dynamic range of uncompressed classical music tends to be high. When loud crescendos are directed at close range into the ear by modern-day earbuds at sound levels that are known to cause hearing damage, capillaries providing circulation to the hair cells in the cochlea constrict and over time the hair cells will begin to fail. Sometimes, the first symptoms of damage is tinnitus which can precede eventual permanent hearing loss.

The first movement of Beethoven’s 5th played at loud volume is an example. Younger ears will initially withstand the assault better than older ears, but over time, everyone listening to music at loud volumes with levels periodic and/or sustained somewhere above 85db will develop hearing loss eventually. It can start in one’s 40s, 50s, 60s etc. The human ears and brain try to compensate for awhile, but finally, give out, sometimes unexpectedly suddenly.

Btw, modern stereo systems, over-the-ear headphones and in-ear earbuds played at high volume can reach db levels comparable to being in the pit next to the brass section or in the middle of a rock band for that matter.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

How on gods green earth does one remaster a CD or Record album without 10's of thousands of dollars of equipment.And even so wouldn't need the master tapes in order to remaster even with the equipment.How does it work to remaster a store bought CD.
No I don't remaster my old recordings


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

bagpipers said:


> How on gods green earth does one remaster a CD or Record album without 10's of thousands of dollars of equipment.And even so wouldn't need the master tapes in order to remaster even with the equipment.How does it work to remaster a store bought CD.
> No I don't remaster my old recordings


Mastering doesn't need master tapes (as in individual composite tracks) as such. They are used at the mixing stage to create a mix. A full mix i.e. one file is all that is required for the next stage, that of mastering. To master well requires a lot of know-how, experience, instinct and good ears and is quite a subjective process. If one wants to re-master what has already been mastered as with the OP then there are many software options available, ranging from really quite cheap to the most expensive pro-level.
All you do is import the mix you wish to remaster into the software and go from there. Check out the Hoffa app.....all of that functionality for €72. 






These plug-ins are more pro-orientated....

The 17 Best Mastering Plugins in 2023 (For Any Genre!)


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

I would consider remastering my CD's, if the pay were higher and affordable health insurance offered. I would consider sub-contracting to the needy or my retired mother who is need of varied activities to insulate her from the tedium of streamed films and games on her digital devices.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I have remastered CDs many times on a burner by re-recording them at higher output. It generally helps. The instructions say to re-record at plus-3 decibels; I have done it as high as plus-6. Many commercially produced CDs have such low output I do this. This famous recording is an example; it sounds like it was recorded in a valley and the recording equipment was at the top of a hill a mile away.


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## relm1 (29 d ago)

I do as well. I've done a remaster/edit of Holst Planets and Ralph Vaughan Williams/Previn No. 9.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I don't do that, but I do think using some kind of equalizer is very important to get your speakers working well in a given room.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> The dynamic range of uncompressed classical music tends to be high. When loud crescendos are directed at close range into the ear by modern-day earbuds at sound levels that are known to cause hearing damage, capillaries providing circulation to the hair cells in the cochlea constrict and over time the hair cells will begin to fail. Sometimes, the first symptoms of damage is tinnitus which can precede eventual permanent hearing loss.
> 
> The first movement of Beethoven’s 5th played at loud volume is an example. Younger ears will initially withstand the assault better than older ears, but over time, everyone listening to music at loud volumes with levels periodic and/or sustained somewhere above 85db will develop hearing loss eventually. It can start in one’s 40s, 50s, 60s etc. The human ears and brain try to compensate for awhile, but finally, give out, sometimes unexpectedly suddenly.


Yes, the dynamic range is high but that actually reduces the chance of hearing damage as the average volume must be lower to make room for those dynamic peaks, which won't last very long. NIOSH and OSHA established the guidelines for the safe levels of occupational noise exposure, starting at 85dB for 8 hours with each 3dB cutting that time in half. It's much easier to reach those limits with music that plays at a relatively consistent level and that's mastered at a much higher volume (and less dynamic range) like rock or pop than with a genre like classical that maintains a much lower average level and that is more sparing with its loud climaxes. I've actually spent days with a calibrated mic and decibel meter measuring the volume of different genres as I've always listened to music all day at work and wanted to protect my hearing; classical never came close to crossing those guidelines; rock and other pop music did. 



DaveM said:


> Btw, modern stereo systems, over-the-ear headphones and in-ear earbuds played at high volume can reach db level comparable to being in the pit next to the brass section or in the middle of a rock band for that matter.


The vast majority cannot. It's really difficult and usually expensive to build a home audio system capable of 120+dB peaks; you need sensitive, low-ish impedance speakers/headphones/earbuds and a beefy amp. My old system was all these things and the most I ever measured was 117db on a millisecond climax of a 7.1 surround recording of a Shostakovich symphony; it was rare to ever see anything over 110db, and never for anything more than a few seconds.


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## ganchan2019 (Oct 14, 2021)

Not remastering, but I once had to remix a live Il Trovatore that suffered from a channel imbalance. I had to remix it into dual-channel mono, but at least it re-centered the audio image. I also once had a copy of the Herbert Kegel recording of Wozzeck that was mastered a half-step above concert pitch for some reason, so I used Audacity to pitch it down.


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## ganchan2019 (Oct 14, 2021)

oops, double-post


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Yes, the dynamic range is high but that actually reduces the chance of hearing damage as the average volume must be lower to make room for those dynamic peaks, which won't last very long. NIOSH and OSHA established the guidelines for the safe levels of occupational noise exposure, starting at 85dB for 8 hours with each 3dB cutting that time in half. It's much easier to reach those limits with music that plays at a relatively consistent level and that's mastered at a much higher volume (and less dynamic range) like rock or pop than with a genre like classical that maintains a much lower average level and that is more sparing with its loud climaxes. I've actually spent days with a calibrated mic and decibel meter measuring the volume of different genres as I've always listened to music all day at work and wanted to protect my hearing; classical never came close to crossing those guidelines; rock and other pop music did.
> 
> The vast majority cannot. It's really difficult and usually expensive to build a home audio system capable of 120+dB peaks; you need sensitive, low-ish impedance speakers/headphones/earbuds and a beefy amp. My old system was all these things and the most I ever measured was 117db on a millisecond climax of a 7.1 surround recording of a Shostakovich symphony; it was rare to ever see anything over 110db, and never for anything more than a few seconds.


Okay, since you’re arguing against nearly every point, I’ll assume that your position is that a classical listener, whether listening to a speaker system, over-ear headphones or in-ear buds, no matter what the work or what the volume, does not need to worry about any effect on their hearing.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Okay, since you’re arguing against nearly every point, I’ll assume that your position is that a classical listener, whether listening to a speaker system, over-ear headphones or in-ear buds, no matter what the work or what the volume, does not need to worry about any effect on their hearing.


I wouldn't say don't worry about it all, as in don't think it's always safe to crank it at max volume and leave it there; but as long as you're being reasonable there's much less cause for concern than with pop and rock. If you are really concerned it's not difficult to set up a calibrated mic and decibel meter and use it to measure the music. There are even programs designed to measure it over the course of hours precisely to tell if it's meeting/exceeding NIOSH/OSHA guidelines.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I wouldn't say don't worry about it all, as in don't think it's always safe to crank it at max volume and leave it there; but as long as you're being reasonable there's much less cause for concern than with pop and rock. If you are really concerned it's not difficult to set up a calibrated mic and decibel meter and use it to measure the music. There are even programs designed to measure it over the course of hours precisely to tell if it's meeting/exceeding NIOSH/OSHA guidelines.


That isn’t practical to measure potentially dangerous levels of sound being fed directly into people’s ears with the latest high-end wireless earbuds that can put out music at high volumes and frequencies. I think this is all off the top of your head and doesn’t relate to the realities of modern earphone listening. Not to mention that you may be young enough that you have not yet experienced the consequences of listening to music, classical or otherwise, at too high volumes.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> That isn’t practical to measure potentially dangerous levels of sound being fed directly into people’s ears with the latest high-end wireless earbuds that can put out music at high volumes and frequencies. I think this is all off the top of your head and doesn’t relate to the realities of modern earphone listening. Not to mention that you may be young enough that you have not yet experienced the consequences of listening to music, classical or otherwise, at too high volumes.


True, you can't measure earbuds this way (at least not easily), but you very much can with headphones and speakers. I've done so with both so I don't know why you think this is "all off the top of my head." If you want some disclaimer, then here: if you have a low impedance transducer (earphones, headphones, or speakers) and an amp that puts out a lot of wattage at those low impedances, then it can probably cause hearing damage with any music you put on if you turn it up loud enough. I doubt very seriously many people listen to classical music that loudly; the climaxes would be nearly unbearable. 

Back in the actual real world though, classical music is usually mastered at an average of -20dB to -30dB, which about 16-128x lower in terms of sound power than most rock/pop that's mastered at about -10dB (16-128x because every 3dB is a doubling of sound power). Every 3dB requires a doubling of amplifier watts to reach the same volume. This might be easily doable with low impedance transducers and high power amps, but not everyone has the former and the vast majority of people do not have the latter. In fact, such loud mastering of pop/rock music became standard BECAUSE portable devices didn't have the requisite power to reproduce older masterings of rock/pop at listenable levels. That's one reason why we have the Loudness Wars.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> *True, you can't measure earbuds this way* (at least not easily), but you very much can with headphones and speakers. I've done so with both so I don't know why you think this is "all off the top of my head."


My post that you originally responded to with a ‘not to worry‘ involved earbuds.



> If you want some disclaimer, then here: if you have a low impedance transducer (earphones, headphones, or speakers) and an amp that puts out a lot of wattage at those low impedances, then it can probably cause hearing damage with any music you put on if you turn it up loud enough. I doubt very seriously many people listen to classical music that loudly; the climaxes would be nearly unbearable.


Impedance is not ordinarily a parameter that limits the ability to raise volumes these days, whether earphones, headphones or speakers, to potentially dangerous levels. The climaxes of classical music at high volumes does not have to be unbearable to cause hearing damage over time.


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

ganchan2019 said:


> Not remastering, but I once had to remix a live Il Trovatore that suffered from a channel imbalance. I had to remix it into dual-channel mono, but at least it re-centered the audio image. I also once had a copy of the Herbert Kegel recording of Wozzeck that was mastered a half-step above concert pitch for some reason, so I used Audacity to pitch it down.


I listen to music on headphones a lot of the time and I've come across some releases that have extreme stereo separation, to the point where it is annoying on headphones. For those releases I decrease the stereo imaging/separation.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> My post that you originally responded to with a ‘not to worry‘ involved earbuds.


Yes, in the very same post where you said you were editing tracks: "to raise the volume because some tracks are not loud enough when played on a iPhone with earbuds." Q.E.D. 



DaveM said:


> Impedance is not ordinarily a parameter that limits the ability to raise volumes these days, whether earphones, headphones or speakers, to potentially dangerous levels. The climaxes of classical music at high volumes does not have to be unbearable to cause hearing damage over time.


Impedance is a parameter that affects how much power an amp can deliver to headphones, which directly affects how loud the volume can get. Last I checked, the physics of Ohm's law hasn't stopped working with modern technology. 

How loud (in decibels) do you think classical climaxes must be for how long to affect hearing? I'd stake a sizable amount of money that no classical listeners are reaching anywhere near the NIOSH or OSHA limits for safe noise exposure.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Impedance is a parameter that affects how much power an amp can deliver to headphones, which directly affects how loud the volume can get. Last I checked, the physics of Ohm's law hasn't stopped working with modern technology.


My guess is that I was dealing with high impedance in headphones long before you. It has nothing to do with the fact that people can and will listen to music at a volume that can damage hearing. If high impedance is interfering with the volume people want, they’ll find a way to deal with it.

But it seems that in your world, if a person has high impedance headphones which are not delivering a high enough volume because amplification is lacking, the person will say, ‘Oh well, at least my hearing won’t suffer. Or maybe you think a person who has the wherewithal to get high-end headphones with high impedance doesn‘t know that one needs sufficient amplification to deal with it. Anyway, impedance is not an issue for people listening to today’s wireless earbuds.



> How loud (in decibels) do you think classical climaxes must be for how long to affect hearing? I'd stake a sizable amount of money that no classical listeners are reaching anywhere near the NIOSH or OSHA limits for safe noise exposure.


Since you don’t think there’s a problem, feel free to jack up the volume of those symphonies in your earbuds. I hope people with a little more concern for their hearing, especially as they get older, won’t.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> My guess is that I was dealing with high impedance in headphones long before you. It has nothing to do with the fact that people can and will listen to music at a volume that can damage hearing. If high impedance is interfering with the volume people want, they’ll find a way to deal with it. But it seems that in your world, if a person has high impedance headphones which are not delivering a high enough volume because amplification is lacking, the person will say, ‘Oh well, at least my hearing won’t suffer. Or maybe you think a person who has the wherewithal to get high-end headphones with high impedance doesn‘t know that one needs sufficient amplification to deal with it.


Good grief. Impedance affects the amount of current that can be delivered to a transducer, which directly affects how loud that transducer can get. You ever actually tried using high impedance headphones with a mobile phone? Hell, you say you edit tracks to make them loud enough with low impedance earbuds, and you think increasing that impedance by sometimes 3x-4x the typical earbud has "nothing to do with" whether or not people can listen loud enough to damage their hearing? 

They'll find a way to deal with it if they know how. Your way of dealing with it was to edit the music tracks; how many people do you think do this? Most people don't have to worry because most listen to modern pop/rock that's mastered loudly enough to play at adequate volumes on modern mobile devices and earbuds. Classical isn't like that, hence your "editing the files" and hence my inability to make classical come close to crossing NIOSH and OSHA's limits even with headphones/speakers with powerful amplifiers. Maybe if you're plugging low impedance/high sensitivity earbuds into powerful amps there might be a problem, but, again, the amount of people doing that is low.



DaveM said:


> Since you don’t think there’s a problem, feel free to jack up the volume of those symphonies in your earbuds. I hope people with a little more concern for their hearing, especially as they get older, won’t.


I get my hearing tested every year (free with my insurance) and it's always been fine; can still hear up to 17kHz despite being near 40. I hope people with concern for their hearing actually test their music and not just have blind "concern," as if that's worth anything.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Good grief. Impedance affects the amount of current that can be delivered to a transducer, which directly affects how loud that transducer can get. You ever actually tried using high impedance headphones with a mobile phone? Hell, you say you edit tracks to make them loud enough with low impedance earbuds, and you think increasing that impedance by sometimes 3x-4x the typical earbud has "nothing to do with" whether or not people can listen loud enough to damage their hearing?
> 
> They'll find a way to deal with it if they know how. Your way of dealing with it was to edit the music tracks; how many people do you think do this? Most people don't have to worry because most listen to modern pop/rock that's mastered loudly enough to play at adequate volumes on modern mobile devices and earbuds. Classical isn't like that, hence your "editing the files" and hence my inability to make classical come close to crossing NIOSH and OSHA's limits even with headphones/speakers with powerful amplifiers. Maybe if you're plugging low impedance/high sensitivity earbuds into powerful amps there might be a problem, but, again, the amount of people doing that is low.


You really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Music files downloaded from classical websites can vary markedly in volume. If one intends to listen with wireless earbuds from an iPhone, the tracks may be too low in volume when quiet passages occur. So you edit the files to increase the volume. But due to the dynamic range of classical music, you may have now increased the sound levels of the peaks so if you are concerned about sudden loud levels, you can decrease the sound levels of the peaks. This is somewhat comparable to gain-riding back in the days of vinyl.

I’ve been doing this for years. You obviously don’t have any idea what I’m talking about. Your ignorance also extends to what damages hearing over time, not to mention not having any idea how capable a good set of speakers driven by a good amplifier is at raising the volume of certain types of classical music to levels dangerous to hearing over time. And who said anything about using high impedance headphones with a mobile phone? You’re the one that thought impedance had anything to do with the subject. Geez!


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> You really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Music files downloaded from classical websites can vary markedly in volume. If one intends to listen with wireless earbuds from an iPhone, the tracks may be too low in volume when quiet passages occur. So you edit the files to increase the volume. But due to the dynamic range of classical music, you may have now increased the sound levels of the peaks so if you are concerned about sudden loud levels, you can decrease the sound levels of the peaks. This is somewhat comparable to gain-riding back in the days of vinyl.
> 
> I’ve been doing this for years. You obviously don’t have any idea what I’m talking about. Your ignorance also extends to what damages hearing over time, not to mention not having any idea how capable a good set of speakers driven by a good amplifier is at raising the volume of certain types of classical music to levels dangerous to hearing over time. And who said anything about using high impedance headphones with a mobile phone? You’re the one that thought impedance had anything to do with the subject. Geez!


I have thousands of classical music files downloaded from an immense variety of sources.I also run these files through JRiver's analyzer that measures (among other things) average volume and dynamic range. When I play these files back (daily, mind you) I have an analyzer going that's telling me the RMS volume as it's playing at any given moment. In all that time, I think I've only come across two classical albums that were mastered anywhere near as loud as contemporary pop music. Have you done any of this? Have you set up a calibrated microphone on a decibel meter to measure whether your system can play tracks back loud enough to harm your hearing according to NIOSH/OSHA's guidelines? I'd guess not, so until you have please don't tell me what I do and don't have a clue about, especially when you're editing files to make them louder so they can playback at an acceptable volume on your mobile devices. 

Yes, I've been doing what I have for years too and you haven't given any indication you really know how any of this works when it comes to impedance/sensitivity of transducers, how that affects current from amps, how high dynamic range music (like classical) must necessarily play back at lower volumes to accommodate that range, how this requires even more current from amps to reach louder volumes; what all of this means for average volume over time and how that compares to safe noise exposure guidelines from OSHA or NIOSH. If you want people to be "concerned" for their hearing then give them the knowledge of what is dangerous for how long and then the means of measuring whether the music they listen to is. Saying "be concerned about your hearing" is utterly useless advice. 

You're also (still) dead wrong that impedance has nothing to do with this and I explained precisely the significance in my last post. High impedance -> less current -> less volume. Simple as that.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> …When I play these files back (daily, mind you) I have an analyzer going that's telling me the RMS volume as it's playing at any given moment. In all that time, I think I've only come across two classical albums that were mastered anywhere near as loud as contemporary pop music. Have you done any of this? Have you set up a calibrated microphone on a decibel meter to measure whether your system can play tracks back loud enough to harm your hearing according to NIOSH/OSHA's guidelines? I'd guess not, so until you have please don't tell me what I do and don't have a clue about, especially when you're editing files to make them louder so they can playback at an acceptable volume on your mobile devices.
> 
> Yes, I've been doing what I have for years too and you haven't given any indication you really know how any of this works when it comes to impedance/sensitivity of transducers, how that affects current from amps, how high dynamic range music (like classical) must necessarily play back at lower volumes to accommodate that range, how this requires even more current from amps to reach louder volumes; what all of this means for average volume over time and how that compares to safe noise exposure guidelines from OSHA or NIOSH. If you want people to be "concerned" for their hearing then give them the knowledge of what is dangerous for how long and then the means of measuring whether the music they listen to is. Saying "be concerned about your hearing" is utterly useless advice.
> 
> You're also (still) dead wrong that impedance has nothing to do with this and I explained precisely the significance in my last post. High impedance -> less current -> less volume. Simple as that.


Let‘s return to my original post:


DaveM said:


> I edit every audio track downloaded from places like Presto Music and Hyperion using Sound Forge, mainly to raise the volume because some tracks are not loud enough *when played on a iPhone with earbuds*. In doing so, I always play back the louder passages to make sure I haven’t created clipping/distortion indicated by an obvious blunting of the peaks and a moving scale provided by Sound Forge that shows peaks turning red when clipping occurs.
> *Also, due to trying to protect my aging ears, I actually reduce the volume of some peaks…so that they don’t blast all of a sudden through the earbuds.*


Earbuds use either very small dynamic drivers or balanced armature drivers. At this size, the dynamic drivers will be low-impedance and balanced armature drivers are always both small and low-impedance.

While I’m sure the fact that you ‘_have an analyzer going that's telling you the RMS volume as it's playing at any given moment.’ _and all the rest of your commentary since responding to my post may be impressive to some audience somewhere, it and your preoccupation with impedance is irrelevant to the subject of listening to music on a smartphone with wireless earbuds. Your being dismissive about the risk to one’s hearing of listening to any kind of music regularly at high volumes from smartphones through earbuds is contrary to the warnings from hearing specialists everywhere.


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

DaveM said:


> Let‘s return to my original post:


I agree with you and do the same thing.
As I stated in my original post, my listening experience can sometimes be improved by remastering classical recordings. Again, for my tastes. Both to boost the overall sound levels, but also to sometimes decrease peaks that, to my ears, are excessively loud and jarring.

I totally understand that this is not standard practice, but I've always been a rebel and a rule-breaker. And if my remasters sound better to me...that's all that matters.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Is this a good thread to talk about listening to classical music LPs that I get from the thrift store


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

fbjim said:


> Is this a good thread to talk about listening to classical music LPs that I get from the thrift store


Probably not.
This thread is better IMO:








Current Listening Vol IX [2023]


Sergei Lyapunov (1859-1924): Rêverie du soir, op.3 (1890), as recorded in 1993 by Dorothy Elliott Schechter (piano). Last evening I was moved by this incredibly beautiful piano piece by Lyapunov. There are so many hidden gems out there that often remain unnoticed in all the clamor of the 'big...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Earbuds use either very small dynamic drivers or balanced armature drivers. At this size, the dynamic drivers will be low-impedance and balanced armature drivers are always both small and low-impedance.
> 
> While I’m sure the fact that you ‘_have an analyzer going that's telling you the RMS volume as it's playing at any given moment.’ _and all the rest of your commentary since responding to my post may be impressive to some audience somewhere, it and your preoccupation with impedance is irrelevant to the subject of listening to music on a smartphone with wireless earbuds. Your being dismissive about the risk to one’s hearing of listening to any kind of music regularly at high volumes from smartphones through earbuds is contrary to the warnings from hearing specialists everywhere.


Yes, I'm aware earbuds are typically low impedance, and they are because mobile devices have very weak amps and can only provide decent amplification for low impedance transducers. This is why you have to edit files to raise the volume of some tracks to play them back on mobile devices. 

What I'm saying isn't meant to sound "impressive," it's meant to explain why damaging your hearing is not a concern for the vast majority of people listening to classical music. It's not easy (or cheap) to build a system capable of playing back such high dynamic music at a loud enough volume consistently to damage hearing. Unless you're reaching over 120dB on dynamic peaks (not impossible, but very unlikely), those peaks don't last long enough to damage hearing. Pop and Rock are entirely different; they're mastered at a much higher average volume level and it's very easy to play them at consistently high volumes over long periods of time. 

At this point, I think it's pointless to continue this discussion. I've done these tests myself. I encourage anyone who's genuinely concerned about their hearing to do the same. It's not difficult, and even with earbuds there's probably a way to test them.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Yes, I'm aware earbuds are typically low impedance, and they are because mobile devices have very weak amps and can only provide decent amplification for low impedance transducers. This is why you have to edit files to raise the volume of some tracks to play them back on mobile devices.
> 
> What I'm saying isn't meant to sound "impressive," it's meant to explain why damaging your hearing is not a concern for the vast majority of people listening to classical music. It's not easy (or cheap) to build a system capable of playing back such high dynamic music at a loud enough volume consistently to damage hearing. Unless you're reaching over 120dB on dynamic peaks (not impossible, but very unlikely), those peaks don't last long enough to damage hearing. Pop and Rock are entirely different; they're mastered at a much higher average volume level and it's very easy to play them at consistently high volumes over long periods of time.
> 
> At this point, I think it's pointless to continue this discussion. I've done these tests myself. I encourage anyone who's genuinely concerned about their hearing to do the same. It's not difficult, and even with earbuds there's probably a way to test them.


A volume of 100db over 15 minutes can be detrimental to hearing. If you don’t think that’s possible from a classical symphony then you must be listening to nothing but the adagios and/or have a very limited sound system. The very fact that you’re relying on 120db for short peaks as what listeners have to worry about without warning about prolonged levels at less than that level indicates that some of your sources are quick google searches.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> A volume of 100db over 15 minutes can be detrimental to hearing. If you don’t think that’s possible from a classical symphony then you must be listening to nothing but the adagios and/or have a very limited sound system.


"Possible" isn't the issue; "Probable" is. The only time a symphony should be getting over 100dB is during climaxes. Climaxes don't last for 15 minutes, and most climaxes don't sustain their peaks throughout the entire climax either. Again, I've measured this; you have not. Go measure it yourself and get back to me as I'm tired of arguing about hypotheticals.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

fbjim said:


> Is this a good thread to talk about listening to classical music LPs that I get from the thrift store


I was going to discuss my audio engineering technique of going to listen to music live, or even playing it myself. But I really can't make such smug comments any longer. The latest earphones I bought for my Sony Walkman clearly were not designed for classical or other acoustic music. The sound was agonizingly artificial and bad. Fiddling with the equalization settings (for the first time), I came across an option for "analog amplifier" DC phase linearizer. I switched that on and the problem disappeared completely. Maybe it did the opposite of what the OP does. Either way, I now give this thread back to the technical experts.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> "Possible" isn't the issue; "Probable" is. The only time a symphony should be getting over 100dB is during climaxes. Climaxes don't last for 15 minutes, and most climaxes don't sustain their peaks throughout the entire climax either. Again, I've measured this; you have not. Go measure it yourself and get back to me as I'm tired of arguing about hypotheticals.


You keep saying you measured it and I didn’t. Measured what? There are so many parameters you would have to disclose for this to have any meaning. Otherwise, this could simply mean that either you don’t listen to classical music at high volumes, don’t listen to works that can put ears at risk if played at high volume or your system simply isn’t very powerful. With the 4 channel systems I’ve had, I could blast someone’s ears off playing the opening minutes of the Emperor concerto and that would amount to more than just the opening peak. The fact that you measured something is purely anecdotal.

Btw, why are you measuring classical music sound levels at all if there’s little or no risk to your hearing?


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> You keep saying you measured it and I didn’t. Measured what? There are so many parameters you would have to disclose for this to have any meaning. Otherwise, this could simply mean that either you don’t listen to classical music at high volumes, don’t listen to works that can put ears at risk if played at high volume or your system simply isn’t very powerful. With the 4 channel systems I’ve had, I could blast someone’s ears off playing the opening minutes of the Emperor concerto and that would amount to more than just the opening peak. The fact that you measured something is purely anecdotal.
> 
> Btw, why are you measuring classical music sound levels at all if there’s little or no risk to your hearing?


I measured the volume over 8+ hour periods to see if it met or exceeded OSHA's/NIOSH's guidelines. No matter what classical music I put on it never came close at reasonable listening levels. I absolutely measured peaks at 100dB plus (very rarely over 110db; again the highest I ever measured was 117dB on a brief transient peak). My system is plenty powerful: For speakers I had Legacy Whispers + Funk 21.0 subwoofer and an ATI 1807 (350 watts into the 4Ohm Whispers). My headphone systems have been more various; these days I'm mostly listening to ZMFs (300Ohms) with a Violectric V281 (~3 watts into 300Ohms). 

Of course what I've measured is anecdotal, but what you're suggesting is even worse; it's pure speculation. I concluded classical wasn't risking my hearing AFTER I measured it, not before. I didn't know before I measured it.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I measured the volume over 8+ hour periods to see if it met or exceeded OSHA's/NIOSH's guidelines. No matter what classical music I put on it never came close at reasonable listening levels. I absolutely measured peaks at 100dB plus (very rarely over 110db; again the highest I ever measured was 117dB on a brief transient peak). My system is plenty powerful: For speakers I had Legacy Whispers + Funk 21.0 subwoofer and an ATI 1807 (350 watts into the 4Ohm Whispers). My headphone systems have been more various; these days I'm mostly listening to ZMFs (300Ohms) with a Violectric V281 (~3 watts into 300Ohms).
> 
> Of course what I've measured is anecdotal, but what you're suggesting is even worse; it's pure speculation. I concluded classical wasn't risking my hearing AFTER I measured it, not before. I didn't know before I measured it.


I’ll take your word for it that you are listening at reasonable listening levels. The problem with amplifier/speaker systems when it comes to damaging hearing has alway been when the volume is repeatedly over time raised to higher than what a reasonable person would call a reasonable listening level. That has always been the primary problem.

But the issue I raised is potentially even more hazardous because the sound is being fed at close range into the ears by efficient earbuds that can achieve high volumes at high frequencies using simple smartphones. More people are using these on a regular basis than amplifier/speaker systems. The volume can be jacked up because it is found to be pleasurable or simply for reasons having to do with noisy environments. None of this is my speculation or something I made up. Just do a little research. If you find something that suggests something to the contrary, be sure to let me know..


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> I’ll take your word for it that you are listening at reasonable listening levels. The problem with amplifier/speaker systems when it comes to damaging hearing has alway been when the volume is repeatedly over time raised to higher than what a reasonable person would call a reasonable listening level. That has always been the primary problem.
> 
> But the issue I raised is potentially even more hazardous because the sound is being fed at close range into the ears by efficient earbuds that can achieve high volumes at high frequencies using simple smartphones. More people are using these on a regular basis than amplifier/speaker systems. The volume can be jacked up because it is found to be pleasurable or simply for reasons having to do with noisy environments. None of this is my speculation or something I made up. Just do a little research. If you find something that suggests something to the contrary, be sure to let me know..


Volumes get raised over time because ears adjust to continuous volumes; this doesn't happen with high-dynamic range music like classical because there is no continuous volume level. It's similar to watching a film where you'll get periods of "quiet" dialogue and (usually shorter) periods of loud music and sound effects. 

Thing is, earbuds being "closer to the ear" is mostly irrelevant as this is already taken into account by the fact that drivers on earbuds are much smaller than those of over-the-ear headphones. Drivers being much smaller also means they handle less wattage, so they're not capable of getting as loud as other transducers. They are efficient for their size, but they have to be because mobile devices have very weak amps. Again, this is why most pop/rock music started being mastered so loudly and why you have to remaster classical tracks to make them louder. 

I'm guessing any research about people damaging hearing with earbuds and mobile devices would not be with classical music, for all the reasons I've been giving. I think your mistake is not taking into account the fact that the higher dynamic range of classical necessitates quieter mastering, which means much quieter average volume on any audio system that doesn't have efficient tranducers and powerful amps.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Thing is, earbuds being "closer to the ear" is mostly irrelevant as this is already taken into account by the fact that drivers on earbuds are much smaller than those of over-the-ear headphones. Drivers being much smaller also means they handle less wattage, so they're not capable of getting as loud as other transducers. They are efficient for their size, but they have to be because mobile devices have very weak amps.


This is contrary to warnings everywhere. Do a little research instead of repeatedly giving out misleading information.



> I'm guessing any research about people damaging hearing with earbuds and mobile devices would not be with classical music, for all the reasons I've been giving. I think your mistake is not taking into account the fact that the higher dynamic range of classical necessitates quieter mastering, which means much quieter average volume on any audio system that doesn't have efficient tranducers and powerful amps.


You are still effectively stating as a fact that hearing can‘t be damaged by listening to classical music at high volumes through earbuds. You keep talking about quieter mastering. Any sound system is capable of putting out high volume regardless of initial mastering level. Besides, I guess you‘re not familiar with downloading flac music files from sites such as Presto: Some of them require raising the volume level; on the other hand, some require lowering the volume level. In fact, some arrive at surprisingly high sound levels. One can see it right away from the sound editor waveform and it is a warning to lower the volume when listening with headphones one is using to edit the files. Mastering of the original recording does not necessarily correlate with the sound levels of music files made available on websites.

The most important parameters when it comes to damaging hearing are the volume level one is frequently setting their music devices at and the db level reaching the ears. If the sound level is frequently in the range of 85-100 or above, then over time one‘s hearing will be at risk. You don’t think this is possible with classical music using earbuds. What you think is wrong.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveM said:


> This is contrary to warnings everywhere. Do a little research instead of repeatedly giving out misleading information.


"Warnings everywhere" are made because almost all popular music, which is what the vast majority of people listen to, is mastered much more loudly--often 15-20dB higher--than classical and jazz. It's very easy to get THAT music loud enough to damage your hearing with earbuds or anything else. Again, the fact that you have admitted you have to remaster classical tracks to make them louder to play on mobile devices with earbuds is a testament to that. 



DaveM said:


> You are still effectively stating as a fact that hearing can‘t be damaged by listening to classical music at high volumes through earbuds. You keep talking about quieter mastering. Any sound system is capable of putting out high volume regardless of initial mastering level. Besides, I guess you‘re not familiar with downloading flac music files from sites such as Presto: Some of them require raising the volume level; on the other hand, some require lowering the volume level. In fact, some arrive at surprisingly high sound levels. One can see it right away from the sound editor waveform and it is a warning to lower the volume when listening with headphones one is using to edit the files. Mastering of the original recording does not necessarily correlate with the sound levels of music files made available on websites.
> 
> The most important parameters when it comes to damaging hearing are the volume level one is frequently setting their music devices at and the db level reaching the ears. If the sound level is frequently in the range of 85-100 or above, then over time one‘s hearing will be at risk. You don’t think this is possible with classical music using earbuds. What you think is wrong.


I'm stating no such thing. You're just (as is typical) misunderstanding me. You are completely dead wrong that "any sound system is capable of putting out high volume regardless of initial mastering level." The fact that you're stating such a thing should tell anyone you don't have a clue what you're talking about. How in the world do you go from "I remaster classical tracks because they're not loud enough through earbuds/mobile devices" to "any sound system is capable of putting out high volumes regardless of initial mastering level?" You've already disproved that statement yourself! 

Also, please stop telling me what I do and don't have experience with; I've downloaded a ton of FLAC files from Presto, Hyperion, private trackers (lossless copies of CDs) and my own CDs. I'm sure there are exceptions where some tracks have been mastered more loudly for digital releases but the vast majority are just copies of the original masters/CDs. Again, I run all these files through JRiver's analyzer which actually tells you the dynamic range and volume of a track/album numerically. I can probably count on one hand the amount of classical FLAC files I've come across that were mastered anywhere near as loudly as rock/pop music. 

Finally, I'll reiterate (since I seem to have to say everything at least twice, often more, for you to get what I'm saying): I'm not talking about possibility but probability. Is there a possibility of damaging your hearing with classical? Sure. Is it probable? No. I don't think it's probable for all the reasons I've given including my own actual tests. You've done no tests, you're just speculating based on nothing.


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