# Round Three: Brahms Die Mainacht. Kipnis, Norman, Onegin



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

We are, I think, going out with a bang. You can pick more than one if you are torn.




Die Mainacht · Gerald Moore · Alexander Kipnis Alexander Kipnis sings Brahms & Wolf 




Brahms: 4 Lieder, Op. 43 - 2. Die Mainacht - Wann der silberne Mond · Jessye Norman · Geoffrey Parsons 




4 Songs, Op. 43: No. 2, Die Mainacht (Recorded 1919) · Sigrid Onegin · Johannes Brahms Sigrid Onegin Vol. 1


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Alexander Kipnis looks cute on the photo and had a deep voice which I like, but a just a few seconds of Jessie Norman felt like a different level, so I forgot about him. Sigrid Onegin was a serious competition, but, I just like Jessie Norman best. She gets the most out of this song and with her I finally really like it.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I am not fond of listening to lower male voices excessively, so _lieder _with Kipnis is out. Onegin has a lovely voice, but Norman seems more interesting vocally.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

*Die Mainacht*
Ludwig Christoph Heinrich Hölty
_Wann der silberne Mond durch die Gesträuche blinkt,
Und sein schlummerndes Licht über den Rasen streut,
Und die Nachtigall flötet,
Wandl’ ich traurig von Busch zu Busch.
Überhüllet vom Laub, girret ein Taubenpaar
Sein Entzücken mir vor; aber ich wende mich,
Suche dunklere Schatten,
Und die einsame Träne rinnt.
Wann, o lächelndes Bild, welches wie Morgenrot
Durch die Seele mir strahlt, find’ ich auf Erden dich?
Und die einsame Träne
Bebt mir heißer die Wang’ herab._
*May Night*
English Translation © Richard Stokes
*When the silvery moon gleams through the bushes,
And sheds its slumbering light on the grass,
And the nightingale is fluting,
I wander sadly from bush to bush.
Covered by leaves, a pair of doves
Coo to me their ecstasy; but I turn away,
Seek darker shadows,
And the lonely tear flows down.
When, O smiling vision, that shines through my soul
Like the red of dawn, shall I find you here on earth?
And the lonely tear
Quivers more ardently down my cheek.*

I'm doubtful that it's really a good idea, on musical grounds, for basses to sing songs written by master composers for treble voices, even if they're Alexander Kipnis, one of the greatest of basses. It's a distortion of the harmonic voicing, and also, potentially, of the mood of the piece. Nevertheless, Kipnis employs his superb instrument with sensitivity and finesse, disappointing only in a touch of pitch insecurity in the final phrase. I had to listen twice to adjust to the bass voice, and I'm glad I did. Whether his is the right voice for it or not, I think he presents the song beautifully. 

Sigrid Onegin's steady, rich, smooth, warm, liquid, legato vocalism is always a great pleasure to hear. She's virtually a human incarnation of the viola, that favorite instrument of Brahms. She's restrained in her interpretation of the poem, though not insensitive to it. Her way is perhaps at the opposite pole from the more "literary," word-centered approach to Lieder singing, effective in projecting more of an overall mood through the sheer beauty of the sung tone (which doesn't necessarily imply blandness or dullness).

Jessye Norman pursues a more detailed approach to the text, employing a wide dynamic range to dramatic effect. Hearing her after the other singers, I found her vocal production as such a bit disappointing, lacking the firmness and clarity exhibited at all pitches and dynamic levels by both Kipnis and Onegin.

The three have different virtues, and I'd rather not hear them as competing. I'll sit this out.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

- - -


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Three rather different performances, all with their inidivual attractions. They are all winners I suppose, but the one I liked the most was Jessye Norman's, despite finding it a little too dramatic, a little too outgoing when I prefer something more inward, such as in the singing of Baker, Wunderlich and Fischer-Dieskau.

Kipnis's voice is absolutely splendid, his diction perfect and his interpretation well considered, but I question the bass voice here, however splendid and firm it is. 

I liked Onegin's the least, but that might have something to do with the recording. She sounded a little matronly, which isn't necessarily wrong, but it's not a quality I enjoy in singers. I note that Jessye sounds more soprano-ish here than she often did.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

I listened to them in order. I love Kipnis in lieder and find his performance here to be without faults. The voice is beautiful, firm and full throughout all of its range and he acts the song well with his voice; the passage _aber ich wende mich_ is well done and so is the one that follows (_Suche dunklere Schatten). _The voice and interpretation fit the words. 

I have never really warmed to Norman, often finding her vocal production laboured and her interpretations uninteresting. It is the case here, even though her production sounds more natural than usual. It is maybe the reason why she sounds more soprano-ish, as Tsaras pointed out. There are moments of great insight, but I wouldn't listen to her performance for my own pleasure. She takes third place. 

Onegin gives a beautiful performance, but the recording reduces its impact. She does everything well, but Kipnis, in my view, does it all better. 

I have to say, I do not really understand the idea that basses should not sing this lied. I cannot find anywhere within the text words or sentences that would point towards deep male voices being inadequate to sing it. Same thing within the music. As long as the interpretation is felt and the voice serves the music and text well, I believe all fachs can sing this lied. Maybe there is something I have missed or do not know.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Three rather different performances, all with their inidivual attractions. They are all winners I suppose, but the one I liked the most was Jessye Norman's, despite finding it a little too dramatic, a little too outgoing when I prefer something more inward, such as in the singing of Baker, Wunderlich and Fischer-Dieskau.
> 
> Kipnis's voice is absolutely splendid, his diction perfect and his interpretation well considered, but I question the bass voice here, however splendid and firm it is.
> 
> I liked Onegin's the least, but that might have something to do with the recording. She sounded a little matronly, which isn't necessarily wrong, but it's not a quality I enjoy in singers. I note that Jessye sounds more soprano-ish here than she often did.





Parsifal98 said:


> I listened to them in order. I love Kipnis in lieder and find his performance here to be without faults. The voice is beautiful, firm and full throughout all of its range and he acts the song well with his voice; the passage _aber ich wende mich_ is well done and so is the one that follows (_Suche dunklere Schatten). _The voice and interpretation fit the words.
> 
> I have never really warmed to Norman, often finding her vocal production laboured and her interpretations uninteresting. It is the case here, even though her production sounds more natural than usual. It is maybe the reason why she sounds more soprano-ish, as Tsaras pointed out. There are moments of great insight, but I wouldn't listen to her performance for my own pleasure. She takes third place.
> 
> ...


You are correct on the male bit. I think some folk just prefer women singers. I long had a bias for female singers but this group and these contests have broadened my horizons. Unlike you I am a huge Norman fan but I also really enjoyed Kipnis' performance tremendously.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I would also like to know, why male or bass voice feels inappropriate here for some.

Actually, by the poetry alone, I would more likely guess the narrator to be male rather than female. Maybe it is just my bubble, that I would expect from men to express such melancholy, rather than from women ?

I would also like to know how people interpret this poetry. To me, it sounds like it is spring, everybody is mating, except of the singer. Or is he looking for God, enlightement, or some other goal, which is difficult to attain ?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> I listened to them in order. I love Kipnis in lieder and find his performance here to be without faults. The voice is beautiful, firm and full throughout all of its range and he acts the song well with his voice; the passage _aber ich wende mich_ is well done and so is the one that follows (_Suche dunklere Schatten). _The voice and interpretation fit the words.
> 
> I have never really warmed to Norman, often finding her vocal production laboured and her interpretations uninteresting. It is the case here, even though her production sounds more natural than usual. It is maybe the reason why she sounds more soprano-ish, as Tsaras pointed out. There are moments of great insight, but I wouldn't listen to her performance for my own pleasure. She takes third place.
> 
> ...


Well actually I do prefer a male singer in the song, but (and this is just a personal preference) I think it goes better in a slightly higher key, such as adpoted by Wunderlich and Fischer-Dieskau and I really liked Wunderlich's honeyed _mezza voce. _

In any case, I did actually say that I thought all three performances were worthy of note. It was hard to choose, but I just liked Jessye's best.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I have _never_ heard a bass sing with that much head voice. That was truly interesting. He gets my vote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am pleased when the votes are divided up well like this. That means they are all strong candidates.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I have _never_ heard a bass sing with that much head voice. That was truly interesting. [Kipnis] gets my vote.


Check out his 78 of Osmin's song from _Entführung aus dem Serail _(good transfer!), then check out Steane's entry for Kipnis in _The Grand Tradition:





_


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> I would also like to know, why male or bass voice feels inappropriate here for some.
> 
> Actually, by the poetry alone, I would more likely guess the narrator to be male rather than female. Maybe it is just my bubble, that I would expect from men to express such melancholy, rather than from women ?
> 
> I would also like to know how people interpret this poetry. To me, it sounds like it is spring, everybody is mating, except of the singer. Or is he looking for God, enlightement, or some other goal, which is difficult to attain ?


I'm agree that these lyrics could be sung by a singer of any sex (or gender? Who knows). There are invariably male or female Lieder, but not this one. Kipnis is amazing here, as well as Onegin and Norman. It's wonderful we can enjoy all three.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> I'm agree that these lyrics could be sung by a singer of any sex (or gender? Who knows). There are invariably male or female Lieder, but not this one. Kipnis is amazing here, as well as Onegin and Norman. It's wonderful we can enjoy all three.


Are we really in agreement ? Sure, both genders _can_ sing it and it might sound great. Just like Maria Callas sounds great singing the bits of male arias.


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