# The Agony of Modern (German) Music; Theodor Adorno and Formal Fascism



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Here is an essay entitled "The Agony of Modern (German) Music" by the late composer Jeffery Cotton regarding what he considered the pernicious influence of Theodor Adorno on contemporary German art music.

The first paragraph:

"German composers reject the dictatorship of history in favor of the dictatorship of Theodor W. Adorno. Will they ever get free of "formless expression"?"

Here is the link:

https://www.jefferycotton.com/essays/agony


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

_To this day the German musical establishment feels no such desire to move on to the next thing, whatever that might be, having settled into an aesthetic that is atonal, indeed, aharmonic, and utterly lacking line and form. The irony is that they have been doing this for a hundred years and still believe their work to be avant-garde (and still believe that being avant garde is an end in itself). _

:lol: very true.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Germany has had the pressure of real 'fascist' colonial imperialist empire building states such as the USA, Britian and France accusing it of all the crimes that Britain and France committed post 1939 and the USA committed internationally post 1945 but internally since its formation. Germany has at least confronted its past politically. Musically it has a golden past, a past that Britain, the USA and France can only grovel at the feet of. Stop attacking Germany. It is a beautiful nation. Attack the dross poured out by France, Britain and particularily the USA.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

John Lenin said:


> Germany has had the pressure of real 'fascist' colonial imperialist empire building states such as the USA, Britian and France accusing it of all the crimes that Britain and France committed post 1939 and the USA committed internationally post 1945 but internally since its formation. Germany has at least confronted its past politically. Musically it has a golden past, a past that Britain, the USA and France can only grovel at the feet of. Stop attacking Germany. It is a beautiful nation. Attack the dross poured out by France, Britain and particularily the USA.


I agree, for the record, I am not attacking Germany. I love the country, its art and people but I don't think the German musical establishment writing new music today is on the right path. (The German musical establishment research and performing old classical music however, is top shelf.)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

John Lenin said:


> ... the USA and France can only grovel at the feet of.


It's hard to admit, but the USA's contribution to classical music composition has been lackluster. It's done spectacularly well for training musicians, creating great orchestras, building a vast recorded legacy. But as far as composing goes...not so much, unless we want to consider music for wind band.

BUT - I would not dismiss France so quickly. The French school wasn't beholden to the German symphonic forms and styles, but when it comes to opera, ballet, chamber music, choral music, piano and organ music...they're pretty good! Think how much poorer we'd be without Bizet, Chabrier, Dukas, Massenet, Saint-Saens, Schmitt, Vierne, Messiaen, Widor, Franck, Debussy, Ravel, Roussel, Faure, Gounod, and maybe most of all, Berlioz.

The French gave us a school of wind playing that is still the envy of the world. (And they gave us the French Basson, but we'll forgive them that. And the saxophone.) The French school of conducting brought us some the finest, most revered in the 20th c: Charles Munch, Paul Paray, Pierre Monteux, Andre Cluytens, George Pretre, Jean Martinon. The libraries are full of great performances by French violinists (Francescatti!), pianists, and vocalists.

Nope, the French need to grovel to anyone.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Apart from Debussy.... they are 2nd rate.... but they can always talk the talk.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> The French gave us a school of wind playing that is still the envy of the world. (And they gave us the French Basson, but we'll forgive them that. And the saxophone.)


Agree with your comments about French composers (more could be added) and conductors. Also I don't quite understand why the French Basson persisted in the face of the superior German instrument. The bassoon is a dream to compose for because of its wide range and many colours, yet even now it's underrated by some people. I still do like the alto saxophone played in the classical manner. Several works on the current Works for Saxophone thread under Classical Music Discussion Polls I find to be real ear-openers.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

John Lenin said:


> Germany has had the pressure of real 'fascist' colonial imperialist empire building states such as the USA, Britian and France accusing it of all the crimes that Britain and France committed post 1939 and the USA committed internationally post 1945 but internally since its formation. Germany has at least confronted its past politically. Musically it has a golden past, a past that Britain, the USA and France can only grovel at the feet of. Stop attacking Germany. It is a beautiful nation. Attack the dross poured out by France, Britain and particularily the USA.


That seems like an unnecessary conflation of art and politics, which is a huge part of the problem.


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

I agree with the article and find ideology in music always to be harmful. The most deadly idea a composer can get is that music history is teleological, i.e. it is "progressing." It is for this reason people think Gesualdo was great and "ahead of his time" for all his chromaticism. In reality stylistic paradigms come and go, and while they certainly form in the context of the past, they are not "more advanced." German's golden past seems to have ended in the 19th century, but perhaps the 21st century will allow greater pluralism.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> (...)
> The French gave us (...) the saxophone.


The saxophone was invented by belgian inventor Adolphe Sax. 
wiki =>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolphe_Sax

Before the introduction of the euro Adolphe Sax and his invention were featured on the belgian 200 francs banknote =>


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> The saxophone was invented by belgian inventor Adolphe Sax.


Chalk one more accomplishment to the Belgians. And the key violinist-composers of the Franco-Belgian school of violin playing were mostly Belgians: De Beriot, Vieuxtemps, Ysaÿe.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

EmperorOfIceCream said:


> I agree with the article and find ideology in music always to be harmful. The most deadly idea a composer can get is that music history is teleological, i.e. it is "progressing." It is for this reason people think Gesualdo was great and "ahead of his time" for all his chromaticism. In reality stylistic paradigms come and go, and while they certainly form in the context of the past, they are not "more advanced." German's golden past seems to have ended in the 19th century, but perhaps the 21st century will allow greater pluralism.


It has been argued on this forum that after Gesualdo, tonal music of the 18th-19th centuries "progressed" up until Wagner, and that Wagner was the apotheosis of the tonal system. They argue that this was not "stylistic" but consisted of the elaboration and refinement of harmony and the tonal system itself as a language.

The same thing can be applied to 12-tone and serial music. It has progressed from Schoenberg to Boulez, Carter, Babbitt's use of all-interval symmetries, and George Perle's "Twelve-Tone Tonality," Charles Wuorinen and Theo Verbey's fractal compositions, computer music..


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> It's hard to admit, but the USA's contribution to classical music composition has been lackluster.


I stopped reading the rest of the post after the first sentence because all I wanted to say was Dr. John Williams, one of the greatest living composers today.


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