# fortepiano. can i make up my own scales?



## DenisAfanasyev (Jul 10, 2021)

or i will take wrong patterns and i gotta stay with famous scales?


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

You can definately make up your own scales, several composers did it. A famous example are Olivier Messiaen's Modes of limited transposition.

However, I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong patterns". Music with made-up scales will certainly sound exotic compared to music based on famous scales.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

You can even make up your own one clusters!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm guessing our colleague means playing scales on the piano, in which case the answer is no - do not try and make up your own ways of doing that. The patterns have been tested over centuries and it is important to keep playing them in a disciplined way.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The *fortepiano* was a precursor to the modern piano (shortened from pianoforte).

If your question is as a piano student, then you should stick to the 24 major and minor scales.

If your question is as a composer, you can experiment with scales of your own creation, many composers have, plus there are a number of recognized scales outside of the standard major/minor ones. Stravinsky used one often, the octatonic scale.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

MarkW said:


> You can even make up your own one clusters!


Alexander Scriabin invented what became known as the "Mystic Chord."


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Unless you have a way of changing the tuning you're pretty much stuck with the traditional major and minor scales, the modes, and scales that have been done over and over - like pentatonic, blues, octatonic, etc. There have been composers who tinkered with alternate tuning, some even inventing new mechanisms to allow for pitches not in the well-tempered system.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

....as Animal the Drummer and San Antone say, you'll reap the benefits of doing so after a while.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Unless you have a way of changing the tuning you're pretty much stuck with the traditional major and minor scales, the modes, and scales that have been done over and over - like pentatonic, blues, octatonic, etc. There have been composers who tinkered with alternate tuning, some even inventing new mechanisms to allow for pitches not in the well-tempered system.


The 12 tones of the Western scale is pretty limiting. The Arabic scale has 4 quarter tones between each of our 12 tones. The Persian scale goes even further.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

You might be interested in the Norwegian composer Eivind Groven who was very interested in alternative tuning systems and went so far as to invent and build a special organ which divided the octave into 36 intervals.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> You might be interested in the Norwegian composer Eivind Groven who was very interested in alternative tuning systems and went so far as to invent and build a special organ which divided the octave into 36 intervals.


I'm Already a fan.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'm guessing our colleague means playing scales on the piano, in which case the answer is no - do not try and make up your own ways of doing that. The patterns have been tested over centuries and it is important to keep playing them in a disciplined way.


While it's true that scales used today "have been tested over centuries", that doesn't preclude trying to invent new ones.



SanAntone said:


> The *fortepiano* was a precursor to the modern piano (shortened from pianoforte).
> 
> If your question is as a piano student, then you should stick to the 24 major and minor scales.
> 
> If your question is as a composer, you can experiment with scales of your own creation, many composers have, plus there are a number of recognized scales outside of the standard major/minor ones. Stravinsky used one often, the octatonic scale.


Octatonic? I'll have to look that one up. Never too late to learn something new about music.

But I was going to chime in here in regards to your comment that only the "24 major and minor scales" are "standard".

There are also the modal scales. In addition to the Major (ionian) and Minor (aolian) scales in every key, there's also Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and Locrian.

And in addition to the "natural" minor scales, there's also the melodic minor, and harmonic minor scales.

. . . And . . . there are some rather unusual (read "rare") modal scales already named and available for a composer's use.

Cappadocian (Phrygian #6)
Asgardian (Lydian augmented)
Pontikonisian (Lydian dominant)
Olympian (Aolian dominant)
Sisyphean (Half diminished: 1 2 ♭3 4 ♭5 ♭6 ♭7)
Palamidian (Altered dominant: 1 ♭2 ♭3 ♭4 ♭5 ♭6 ♭7)
Ukrainian Dorian (1 2 ♭3 ♯4 5 6 ♭7)
Hungarian minor (1 2 ♭3 ♯4 5 ♭6 7)

In fact, I think every possible Well Tempered scale has been thought of, although the rest don't have distinct names, just descriptions, such as *"Phrygian double flat7 ♭4"* (1 ♭2 ♭3 ♭4 5 ♭6 double flat7), or *"Ionian ♯5"* (1 2 3 4 ♯5 6 7).

If you're looking for even more diversity, you can always delve into different musical traditions, such as *Echos* (Byzantine music), *Dastgah* (Persian traditional music), *Maqam* (Arabic music), and several others.

There's also the damned *Pentatonic* (5-note) scale, and the *Whole Tone* scale (hexatonic) scale

Oh, there are many, many more scales just a Google away. Today I just discovered the *Vietnamese scale of harmonics*, although it's not even playable on a piano that is tuned to a standard scale; this one is 1- 'three quarter flat3' -♭3 -♮3 - 5 - 7.

There's also alternate tunings, mostly antiquated tunings used prior to the consensus in Western Music to use the the Modern "*equal temperament*" (twelve-tone equal temperament, or _*12-TET*_) tuning. There's *Just* Tuning (or *Ptolemaic* tuning), *Mean* Tuning, and *Pythagorean* tuning.

I'm the "Music Specialist" (fancy name for accompanist) for a couple of choirs, and one of the choir directors is always pointing out that choirs tune _*differently*_ than a piano.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

DenisAfanasyev said:


> *fortepiano. can i make up my own scales?*
> 
> or ... gotta stay with famous scales?


You can certainly make your own. But the one I recommend, and which I give as Christmas gifts to all my friends who have an interest in weighing pianos, is the Czerny Piano Scale.









You might say it's famous. Who doesn't think of scales when they hear the name Czerny? And off hand, I can't think of another scale that does the job as well.

(It is a bit of work, though, to load those pianos into the scale. I generally avoid my piano-weighing loving friends on those days when they feel an urge to practice their hobby. You might want to look into picking up a piano raiser jack.















I know I would -- but I confine my hobby _lifting_ to the placing of vinyl records onto my turntable platter and _weighing_ to setting up of proper vertical tracking force for the cartridge, for which I use a stylus pressure gauge. But hey! To each his own.)

Hope that helps.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

pianozach said:


> While it's true that scales used today "have been tested over centuries", that doesn't preclude trying to invent new ones.


You're missing my point. Unlike most other folks who've replied, my reading of the OP is that what it was referring to was playing scales on the piano, and I stand by the view that trying to invent new ways of doing _that_ is a foolish errand.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I make up scales all the time but for learning purposes the 24 maj/min are essential to improve playing and musicianship. I too read the OP as trying to find an alternative to the tried, tested and best way to learn. When a player is more advanced, then I'd be all for recommending the learning of new scales and for that matter playing the usual suspects in many different ways, but not to start with.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Animal the Drummer said:


> You're missing my point. Unlike most other folks who've replied, my reading of the OP is that what it was referring to was playing scales on the piano, and I stand by the view that trying to invent new ways of doing _that_ is a foolish errand.


I think that the OP is too vague to make assumptions either way:

_"fortepiano. can i make up my own scales?
or i will take wrong patterns and i gotta stay with famous scales?"_

. . . but, yeah, using the word _"patterns"_ _*IS*_ more indicative of _playing_ scales, rather than possibly using the word to indicate of step patterns to create a scale (Such as _"whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, half step"_ to indicate a Mixolydian scale).


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