# Tales of Hoffmann Q



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Is there a more broken opera - well, a more broken popular opera - than Tales of Hoffmann? To me it's a complete mystery how such a damaged piece of goods could ever have become as popular as it is. And yet it's wonderful.

The four villains, which supposedly come together as one in the prologue and the epilogue. There's no dramatic resolution to this idea. I can't see that the idea works at all. But it's integral to the piece. Without the four villains, it wouldn't be Tales of Hoffmann, would it? 

The four heroines, that like the four villains, come together in the epilogue as psychological avatars of Stella. I hope no one actually buys this naif-artiste-wh*re theory as a serious idea of what women are and what they want. But that seems to be what Offenbach meant by it.

The recurring weirdnesses - the disappearing reflection and shadow, the robot with the perfect eyes, the musician who's going to put his daughter's voice "into" a violin (well, that's what they did in San Francisco). WTF? What has all this weirdness got to do with anything? If someone were to ask me, well, does it work? The answer would be a pretty quick no. But the opera has to have it.

The music is good, in places, but it's not the quality one expects from Mozart or Verdi. I think "uneven" would probably be a polite way of putting it. The good parts aren't great, although there aren't any really bad parts.

So, with all this wrong - assuming you all agree with me mostly on the above - how does it work?

I have ideas of my own (about why the opera seems to be popular in spite of its evidently crippling flaws), but they're not very well formed and I'd like to hear what you think first.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Drugs, my friend, drugs! Offenbach was deep in it! hehehheeh I've always felt that The tales captured the essence of Paris in its golden era in 19th century. The music is wonderful, very melodic and joyfull. It's an opera that i have much enjoyed. Unfortunatelly, as being Offenbach's only opera, one can only pity the fact that this man did not compose more of them.

The plot is, at least, very refreshing as a 19th century opera. Different from Hamlet or I Pagliacci, where a play is in another play, this is like cinema when several stories are put together. And one attends to 3 mini-operas in one night and the ticket is totally worth it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dionisio said:


> Drugs, my friend, drugs! Offenbach was deep in it! hehehheeh I've always felt that The tales captured the essence of Paris in its golden era in 19th century. The music is wonderful, very melodic and joyfull. It's an opera that i have much enjoyed. Unfortunatelly, as being Offenbach's only opera, one can only pity the fact that this man did not compose more of them.
> 
> The plot is, at least, very refreshing as a 19th century opera. Different from Hamlet or I Pagliacci, where a play is in another play, this is like cinema when several stories are put together. And one attends to 3 mini-operas in one night and the ticket is totally worth it.


Hamlet and Pagliacci, what a strange pairing! I suppose you do mean the Hamlet of Thomas not seen in the US for well over 100 years until recently.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Drugs, my friend, drugs! Offenbach was deep in it! hehehheeh I've always felt that The tales captured the essence of Paris in its golden era in 19th century. The music is wonderful, very melodic and joyfull. It's an opera that i have much enjoyed. Unfortunatelly, as being Offenbach's only opera, one can only pity the fact that this man did not compose more of them.
> 
> The plot is, at least, very refreshing as a 19th century opera. Different from Hamlet or I Pagliacci, where a play is in another play, this is like cinema when several stories are put together. And one attends to 3 mini-operas in one night and the ticket is totally worth it.


Good answer! Drugs indeed. I myself wonder: if Offenbach had finished it, would it have fallen out of the repertory? Would his final work have ruined it? All too possible, unfortunately. I think we can be very glad he stopped where he did.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

The only thing that can be said with certainty about "Hoffmann" is that there is little that can be said about what Offenbach's own final conception would have been.
He normally revised and altered in performance ,but of course he died before that was possible.
Who was responsible for the musical setting of the greater part of the recitative as we know it today ?
Guiraud as has been assumed or Offenbach himself,how much did he complete and how much was the work of other hands ?
In the forefront of reconstruction have been people such as Antonio de Almeida,Hugh Macdonald and Alexander Faris.
But most recordings ignored all this and carried on as before, I am not up in the most recent examples.
I find the whole thing fascinating and gripping and the music is wonderful.
The Antonia scene is magnificent and fairly exhausting.

I note the remark above about Offenbach having written only one opera,this was his
attempt at Grand Opera but no doubt he picked up a tiny bit of experience with his operettas---don't you think ?


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Hoffmann has its flaws but nevertheless it's a very entertaining opera with plenty of good music, perhaps slightly inconsistent but generally fine.

As to the plot devices, drugs or not, it's a fantasy anyway, so go for it.

I had a blast performing Hoffmann, one of the most elaborate productions that our small company essayed. My role was Luther the tavernkeeper and I was also a super in the group scenes (Olympia's coming out party, the Venice scene). And oh yeah, I was also "recruited" for a very special role...

I told our director "I've got Luther but my stuff is all sung mostly at the beginning. Do you want me to sing with the other chorus men during the tavern scenes, like the Kleinsach sequence?" And she said, "Er, no, Sam. We want you to BE Kleinsach!" So when our tenor sang the elf song (and he was this huge footballer size guy) I got pummeled around stage by him, playfully swinging and spinning me around, my hat and apron and other things going whizzing off, me getting pushed and shoved by the other chorus men. Naturally it was all fake but just like pro wrestling, it was still pretty rough treatment. Six performances plus rehearsals and I had sore spots all over!

We all had great fun performing in this opera and it's a lot of hard work (plenty of complex stagecraft) but very satisfying.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

wow - what a great time YOU had! You know, I should have been a singer - then maybe I could have experiences like that to remember!


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> wow - what a great time YOU had! You know, I should have been a singer - then maybe I could have experiences like that to remember!


Well, I sure wasn't doing much singing while being slung around the stage! ha ha

Truthfully, my semi-pro opera "career" of 4+ years was one of the greatest times of my life, memories to cherish. My recommendation to opera fans is to find a way to volunteer or work for some small local company, even as a super or whatever. Those who have been involved in any type of theatrical work, opera or not, can attest that backstage is incredible fun.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

I've told this story - and this is the Cliff Notes version, many times, but Tales of Hoffmann was my first opera. I was in college and not very enthusiastic, but went after my professor sort of made me an offer I couldn't refuse and assured me that I would never regret it. He was right. It was a particularly good production and a wonderful evening. 

The individual stories are surreal and magical. Logic doesn't really enter into the action. When everything is working in this opera (first class singing, production, orchestra, etc) the effect is like sitting on a cloud.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> Logic doesn't really enter into the action....


You got that EXACTLY right. Logic has nothing to do with it. Your stories, as always, are the best. Well, perhaps up there with katdad's! :lol:


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

You're right, Hoff, regarding the stories needing to "make sense" because it's unnecessary.

That being said, there's a sort of "internal consistency" required of any story, whether fantasy or science fiction or just plain ol' fiction. Things have to make sense within the universe of the story or the author's "world" created in that work.

I work with this all the time, being a writer myself. I'm the author of 2 (3rd in progress) modern-day realistic private detective novels, and I am constantly asking myself "could this really happen?" because my stories are intentionally not "Mike Hammer thuggish" but instead as realistic as possible. Still, of course, the adventures my private eye has are not typical for a real-world PI -- if they were, it would consist mostly of hours of internet research and a couple hours taking long distance videos of some guy on disability playing golf or some woman cheating on her hubby. Boring.

But within my novels, I still maintain factual accuracy as much as possible, after first allowing for the rather fanciful cases that my PI works on. For example, he is constantly using the internet and his smart phone and all the normal modern tools. He drives a real car (a Toyota 4Runner), lives in a small home with his office in the front, pays his electric bill, and so on. Weapons are precisely and accurately described (myself being a pistol enthusiast) and there are in fact no huge fights, gun battles, car chases, or anything similar. Crimes are also described in somewhat lurid detail but accurately per police reports I've access to (I've got pals).

Anyway, I wandered there... any opera story line has to make internal sense or it becomes laughable. Especially the verisimo [sp?] operas. So yes, you can have magic flutes and witches and talking statues, but there still has to be an internal consistency.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

I'll say this in defense of Hoffmann, however.

In addition to performing in the opera, I've seen 2 different productions, plus that very good Met PBS broadcast of about 5 years ago. And I have to say that I really enjoyed the opera. All the productions were "traditional" and they were nicely staged. Singing was fine, too. All were entertaining.


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