# I hath found Heaven.



## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Now as a composer & classical music listener & self-proclaimed hater of modern music, Mahler's music never appealed to me, not out of hate, just dis-interest in the direction he takes with his music.

Until I heared his 10th symphony. Almschi.

The very final page of the [4th?] movement is orchestration in a short condensed score of just 4 staves, and in just a few chords I felt more moved than by listening to the Grandiouse finale of his 2nd symphony, and almost as much as Wagner's Tristan and Isolde, a feeling I have only encountered once before.

From now on I will study Mahler and his musique much more, for the feeling of great, painful solitude and melanchonly that his 10th gave me. I owe him this much.

.... Does anyone else feel the same? The final page begins at 1.16.06 in the following video.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

It is good that you found Mahler in a rather odd way.His so called thenth is not a real Mahler symphony in my opinion.Nevertheless it is good that you are curious and that it now has your attention and that is a good thing.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Traverso said:


> It is good that you found Mahler in a rather odd way.His so called thenth is not a real Mahler symphony in my opinion.Nevertheless it is good that you are curious and that it now has your attention and that is a good thing.


I agree. What boggles me the most is that out of all the variety and depth of his music, which I must credit him for regardless of my like or distaste of his music - I only found pleasure, not that, but something entirely else in just a few chords from his last symphony? Truly he must have been inspired from a higher celestial place to create such beauty.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Good. Now listen to symphonies 1-9 in which Mahler composed every note; not a reconstruction.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> I agree. What boggles me the most is that out of all the variety and depth of his music, which I must credit him for regardless of my like or distaste of his music - I only found pleasure, not that, but something entirely else in just a few chords from his last symphony? Truly he must have been inspired from a higher celestial place to create such beauty.


If you found "such beauty" in just that single passage, it suggests to me not celestial inspiration, but just that Mahler got lucky in finally producing a group of sounds that appeal to you. A stopped clock is right twice a day, after all. (I say this as someone for whom Mahler always tells the right time with great accuracy)


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> If you found "such beauty" in just that single passage, it suggests to me not celestial inspiration, but just that Mahler got lucky in finally producing a *group of sounds that appeal to you.* A stopped clock is right twice a day, after all. (I say this as someone for whom Mahler always tells the right time with great accuracy)


You could say that for any music with harmony, but take into consideration the struggle Mahler was going through near the end of his life with his wife & his diagnosed deadly heart condition, on top of the fact he is a Cathlolic / Jew I just feel in the last phrase of his 10th symphony, of which he knew was his last, he was trying to express something more than just "music".

Just my opinion..


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

JamieHoldham said:


> You could say that for any music with harmony, but take into consideration the struggle Mahler was going through near the end of his life with his wife & his diagnosed deadly heart condition, on top of the fact he is a Cathlolic / Jew I just feel in the last phrase of his 10th symphony, of which he knew was his last, he was trying to express something more than just "music".
> 
> Just my opinion..


He certainly was.:tiphat:


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

But the basic melodic 'line' is Mahler's throughout: someone really on his wave length (eg Cooke) can add the rest (and has done so, successfully, in my view).


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

manyene said:


> But the basic melodic 'line' is Mahler's throughout: someone really on his wave length (eg Cooke) can add the rest (and has done so, successfully, in my view).


I would agree, that goes without saying that the core music is there; the melody. I can't say overall how well the recreation is but for the final few chords... its out of this world.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> You could say that for any music with harmony, but take into consideration the struggle Mahler was going through near the end of his life with his wife & his diagnosed deadly heart condition, on top of the fact he is a Cathlolic / Jew I just feel in the last phrase of his 10th symphony, of which he knew was his last, he was trying to express something more than just "music".


But a Mahler fan will counter with the argument that he was trying to express a whole range of "something more"s in _all_ his works (and, in fact, succeeded). I don't think you need to use Mahler himself to rationalise why you like this one tiny bit of Mahler and not the rest. It's not him: it's you! I'm glad you love that little bit; and the fact that you love it is enough for me.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

It is not him,it is you,what is the difference? The pain from Mahler,his despair is the same as my pain so to speak we are not that unique.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Its more than just the melody..the harmonic strucutre and form of the piece is also his. The only thing that isnt is the orchestration basically. I like to think of it as a 2 piano piece he wrote that someone orchestrated (thats basocally what we're hearing)


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## MadMusicist (Jan 14, 2017)

Mahler 10 is a somewhat unusual place to start, but there is no right or wrong. It is an overwhelming work. Now go and find yourself the other 9 heavens!


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## Vox Gabrieli (Jan 9, 2017)

*Make peace everyone!*

It seems like most of the posters here just like to bash Mahler. I've neglected studying him for a while, but i've enjoyed a few of his pieces, like the organ concertos, and this little piece:




Now, I understand not everybody has to agree with everything someone says, but I think some people should be a little open-minded about a subject like the 10th Symph.

I may be over-exaggerating a bit here..


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks for recommending this piece. I hadn't been able to enjoy Mahler much before but this piece does it for me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Who care in what way Jamie starts, as long as he's enjoying himself.
My 2 cents dear Jamie, try 6 and 9 or just 5.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

MadMusicist said:


> Mahler 10 is a somewhat unusual place to start, but there is no right or wrong. It is an overwhelming work. Now go and find yourself the other 9 heavens!


Apart from the first movement, I find the 10th is the most widely debated of his symphonies because of the situation around the orchestration. It is really odd for a place to start, really weird..


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Yes, the tenth is a beautiful symphony. But so is everything else. Mahler usually requires 10+ listens of any given piece to truly enjoy, it's just one it's quirks.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Who care in what way Jamie starts, as long as he's enjoying himself.
> My 2 cents dear Jamie, try 6 and 9 or just 5.


Yes, get yourself some of No.5


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

^
Try all, probably listening to Bernstein or the Mahler Complete Works Released by Warner/EMI (which includes the complete No.10 that blew your mind).

















I would shout out for the No.8


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## pokeefe0001 (Jan 15, 2017)

If you like the Cooke reconstruction of the 10th, you might find it interesting to listen to some of the other attempts. While Mahler fully orchestrated the 1st and 3rd movements, parts of the others were left in 4 staff form (with some comments relating to orchestration). That results in some very different sounds among the various reconstructors. And apparently Mahler did not always include intended accidentals in his sketches so even the tonality is in question. Cooke made decisions, some of the reconstructions used his decisions as starting points. Others did not. It makes for some interesting listening.

I find the Rudolf Barshai version particular interesting. It starts with the Cooke version has some very subtle but significant changes to orchestration ... even in the supposedly complete movement 3. Parts of the 4th movement differ so much from Cooke that they seem, briefly, to be a different composition altogether.

A version by Clinton Carpenter, dating from before Cooke even started on the 10th, is more of a recomposition than a performing version. It really _is_ a different composition - one based on Mahler and using Mahler's techniques (and sometimes quotes from other symphonies).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> ^
> Try all, probably listening to Bernstein or the Mahler Complete Works Released by Warner/EMI (which includes the complete No.10 that blew your mind.
> 
> 
> ...


Jamie is getting there, he needs his own time, do not rush Jamie, think about yourself.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

The 9th was my gateway to Mahler's art. Then was the 10th the one that caught my attention. And I must confess that it's one of my favorites symphonies ever. I love The classic Rattle/BPO and the one Hardling recorded with VPO, Ormandy (the first recorded using the first Cooke reconstruction) and Barshai's own completion offers nice alternatives too. 
It's difficult to hear this work and not thinkin' on Mahler as someone who is far from this earth and near from heaven.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Every Mahler symphony (including the 10th) has moments in it that I find jaw dropping and downright amazing. There are sharp contrasts there though... the way Mahler's symphonies are constructed on the whole isn't quite to my tastes (though I acknowledge he was a great master). The exception is _Das Lied Von Der Erde_ which I find to be a masterpiece from start to finish.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

I just started exploring the 5th, and I do quite enjoy the heroism of the piece overall, and most interestlingly is that Mahler has quite a few unique composing techniques that I would never have thought of, and might use in some of my own compositions, such as trilling Bassons in the lower octaves, gives a very eerie effect.

Will continue my search of Mahler but for now I bid farewell to go to the Jobcentre, hell on earth.


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