# Has Postmodern Classical gone too far or still going anywhere?



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm a fan of progressive music. But I feel it has been making some serious sacrifices of expressiveness over form. And even the expressiveness is not really so original or full of impact anymore. I can't think of any substantial piece that is still original and progressive past Lutoslawski's Symphony 4 completed in 1992. The old avant gardists still observed form. I have no interest in Thomas Ade's music, who may be the forerunner now, even though it is not too bad. I'm interested in hearing thoughts from modern music fans.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

I still enjoy Michael Daugherty's music. His _Tales of Hemingway_, written in 2015, is remarkably tonal (for this day and age) and I really like it. _American Gothic_ is quite interesting as well.

Other than him, I really don't like "postmodern" music that much. But I do think it's getting more tonal and more "acceptable."


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Try Magnus Lindberg. I always like what he makes  There are many more too!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Wait, which one is postmodern music again?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Everybody, who else...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I listened to a Ferneyhough string quartet, and it did not deal with discreet, sustained pitch, but seemed more concerned with percussive noises and scraping, plucking, etc.

I'm a "classical modernist" in this regard; I like it when music deals with hand-on instruments, dealing with pitch.

Boulez' piano sonatas are like this; no scraping or plucking, just fingers on keys.

The downfall of music, in my opinion, is when it emphasizes one aspect too much, such as timbre. There has to be a balance.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Try Magnus Lindberg. I always like what he makes  There are many more too!


Thanks for the recommendation, i'll give him a spin.


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## Guest (May 9, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm a fan of progressive music. But I feel it has been making some serious sacrifices of expressiveness over form. And even the expressiveness is not really so original or full of impact anymore. I can't think of any substantial piece that is still original and progressive past Lutoslawski's Symphony 4 completed in 1992. The old avant gardists still observed form. I have no interest in Thomas Ade's music, who may be the forerunner now, even though it is not too bad. I'm interested in hearing thoughts from modern music fans.


If you have actually listened to the wealth of what-I-see-as brilliant music post-1992, and found it all wanting, then we are better off agreeing to disagree.

If you haven't, then you posted this whole thing a bit rashly and prematurely, so we are better off agreeing to disagree.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Personally I love Ades' music. There are many contemporary composers whose music I find compelling. I have little sense of what postmodern music is, but the 21st century music I enjoy seems as expressive as past music. I don't know if it's progressive, but I've never been interested in that. Some music changes a lot from the past. Other music changes less or perhaps not at all. Both can be wonderful.

The thread 21st Century Classical contains links to works, websites, radio stations, newsletters, etc. that focus on new music. There are many composers and works that many of us are thrilled to explore.

Many on TC love to hear works by:

Hans Abrahamsen
Georg Friedrich Haas
Steve Reich
Unsuk Chin
Per Norgard
Sofia Gubaidulina

and many other contemporary composers. Your taste may differ, or perhaps you have specific requirements in the music you listen to. There are so many new composers to explore that sometimes I'm overwhelmed with the numbers and variety.

One critical distinction between new music and older music is that new music has passed few filters. Only a small amount will remain for future generations to sample. Almost all music we hear from before, say, 1950 has already passed the test of people's interest. A significant number of people must enjoy music to make it last. So, much new music will perhaps not be quite up to the same standards. Still much of it is fresh and enjoyable even if it's not upper level Mozart or Lutoslawski.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> Personally I love Ades' music. There are many contemporary composers whose music I find compelling. I have little sense of what postmodern music is, but the 21st century music I enjoy seems as expressive as past music. I don't know if it's progressive, but I've never been interested in that. Some music changes a lot from the past. Other music changes less or perhaps not at all. Both can be wonderful.
> 
> The thread 21st Century Classical contains links to works, websites, radio stations, newsletters, etc. that focus on new music. There are many composers and works that many of us are thrilled to explore.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your straight forward reply. Sorry if I offended anyone. Was not my intent.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> Wait, which one is postmodern music again?


The ironic one.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Is "progressive" here supposed to exclude minimalism, post-minimalism, totalism? Because I'm sorry (not sorry), but at some point even the most unreconstructed Modernists have to admit that they need to come to terms with La Monte Young's experiments with overtones, if nothing else (and probably not nothing else).

Even if we set that aside, though, "progressive" music didn't stop with the generation that came of age in the '50s and '60s. In the late 20th century you had spectral music in France - Gérard Grisey, Tristan Murail - and extended techniques in Germany - Helmut Lachenmann - and now those have evolved into the music of relatively young current stars like Georg Friedrich Haas, Kaija Saariaho, and Sofia Gubaidulina.

Have you listened to this? Listen to this if you haven't listened to this (1997): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9wnX-fT2pdWFN8rvyrojiU47PypLTyj0


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

What i hear in more current music is expression with little form, or form with little expression, even by some of the greats still around, as if they already are well past their creative peaks (I listened to Lindberg's works all this afternoon and evening, in addition to many other works I could find). In terms of originality, I don't hear anything that is really a significant departure from previous music, although it seems they do strive for it. I've listened to a lot, and I'm just getting the feeling maybe there isn't much else to explore, or that it just hasn't come yet.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> The ironic one.


The funny one


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think of John Harbison as a composer who is well aware of his immersion in the post-modernist era, yet still chooses to compose in familiar, traditional forms: chamber music, concertos, and string quartets.

I think "post-modern classical music" is somewhat of a misnomer, because by its very nature, postmodernism is a varied area, with pockets of concentration in all sorts of areas.

Marcus Lindberg or Ferneyhough are no more representative of "post-modern music," whatever that means, than Harbison or Joseph Schwantner.


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

For me postmodernism breaks with modernism in the sense that it doesn't pretends to be Truth and avantgardistic like modernist movements did: instead of putting forward a new metaphysical doctrine (The Truth), it reflects on the history of musical movements (thus on art/music itself) and plays with it. Therefore it is 'ironic' and integrates older, e.g. tonal, forms; therefore it is often far more accesible than modernist music. I think Gorecki and Pärt are postmodern composers and their popularity proves my point.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think minimalism owes a lot of its 'success' to the idea of postmodernism; otherwise, it would be seen as too simplistic for the avant garde.

Postmodern music needs to be progressive, though, or it will wind up being banal imitations of what has gone before. We'd better dress it up really nice.

I want to see more postmodern music which uses "modern" music as its starting point, and it starts being used in commercials and movies. :lol:

I think rap music should start sampling more avant grade stuff, like Schoenberg and Stockhausen. Then it would _really _be post modern.


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