# Trombone part playability



## janxharris

I suspect that only professional trombonists would be able to cope with this part - would it be easier if the 4 bars of 32nd notes (bars 49-52) were shared among two players to assist with breathing - a bar each perhaps?

Any ideas? Thanks.

Tempo: crotchet = circa 76 bpm.


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## Larkenfield

32nd notes per beat at this rapid tempo? Even if the part was divided up it's still expecting a lot. Why this passage for trombones when it doesn't look idiomatic for the instrument? 76 bpm seems fast for a phrase such as this on a slide instrument.


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## janxharris

Larkenfield said:


> 32nd notes per beat at this rapid tempo? Even if the part was divided it's still expecting a lot. Why this passage for trombones when it doesn't look idiomatic for the instrument?


Thanks - it's during a busy section so alternatives are a little difficult. It might work better for French Horn...


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## mikeh375

Janx, this is not really appropriate for trombones. As Larkenfield says, it is not orchestrally idiomatic in a standard way for a trombone section and it would also need to be divided up between anything that could play it for practical reasons as you suggest unless strings are allocated. I would suggest dividing it between 2 bassoons and perhaps doubling with violas if it is an orchestral setting, or perhaps bassoons and clarinets in some combination. I can't really be specific as I don't know the context, is it meant to be foreground or background and what is the rest of the scoring? 
Depending on what plays it, one way to divide (and a simpler practical one from the players pov) would be to give 2 beats to each player with an overlapping demisemiq at the end of each run. Although violas could play the whole lot, it might be a good idea for better ensemble to likewise split it between them and cellos if resources are available, again with overlaps.

French horns don't really feel appropriate neither but they could possibly handle it between them if they are top, top players, the horn is not as responsive to fast music as say trumpets because of the mouthpiece and bore. Take it up an octave onto trumpets (divided again) and it would dazzle.


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## janxharris

mikeh375 said:


> Janx, this is not really appropriate for trombones. As Larkenfield says, it is not orchestrally idiomatic in a standard way for a trombone section and it would also need to be divided up between anything that could play it for practical reasons as you suggest unless strings are allocated. I would suggest dividing it between 2 bassoons and perhaps doubling with violas if it is an orchestral setting, or perhaps bassoons and clarinets in some combination. I can't really be specific as I don't know the context, is it meant to be foreground or background and what is the rest of the scoring?
> Depending on what plays it, one way to divide (and a simpler practical one from the players pov) would be to give 2 beats to each player with an overlapping demisemiq at the end of each run. Although violas could play the whole lot, it might be a good idea for better ensemble to likewise split it between them and cellos if resources are available, again with overlaps.
> 
> French horns don't really feel appropriate neither but they could possibly handle it between them if they are top, top players, the horn is not as responsive to fast music as say trumpets because of the mouthpiece and bore. Take it up an octave onto trumpets (divided again) and it would dazzle.


Thanks - all good suggestions mikeh375.

The piece is orchestral but all the instruments you suggest are already busy. I think a possible solution would be to have the two trumpets play it (albeit with bottom note lift because of range).

They do repeat the phrase up an octave immediately afterwards anyway.


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## mikeh375

Janx, instinct tells me you should should re-score. You didn't say what sort of part it was though so I can't be of any help.


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## janxharris

mikeh375 said:


> Janx, instinct tells me you should should re-score. You didn't say what sort of part it was though so I can't be of any help.


Sorry - it's a background part. The piece is for full orchestra 2,2,2,2,4,2,3,0,timp(3perc.),strings.

The violas play the same line as the part in question.


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## mikeh375

Then I'd advise a re-score using less brilliant instruments, trumpets might detract. Best bet are the clarinets, bassoons and violas in some guise/combination at that octave. Make sure the texture is thin enough for the runs to be heard though.


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## janxharris

mikeh375 said:


> Then I'd advise a re-score using less brilliant instruments, trumpets might detract. Best bet are the clarinets, bassoons and violas in some guise/combination at that octave. Make sure the texture is thin enough for the runs to be heard though.


As it is a loud section then the trumpet's brightness might be required.


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## Heck148

bassoons, celli, viola, bass clarinet, clarinet....for trombones or horns it will come out as a smeary mess...


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## TMHeimer

I recall hearing Alastair Kay play Flight of the Bumble Bee on (slide) Trombone (in Toronto, I think). It can be done!


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## Heck148

TMHeimer said:


> I recall hearing Alastair Kay play Flight of the Bumble Bee on (slide) Trombone (in Toronto, I think). It can be done!


Have you ever heard the Fennell/Eastman Wind Ensemble "Screamers" disc?? A lot of notes, very fast...Trombones are playing clarinet parts!! lol!!


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## TMHeimer

Heck148 said:


> Have you ever heard the Fennell/Eastman Wind Ensemble "Screamers" disc?? A lot of notes, very fast...Trombones are playing clarinet parts!! lol!!


Haven't heard it, but yeah some of those T-Boners can really fly. You can kinda understand it when you hear stuff like that on Tuba, but they have valves. Makes us woodwinders really think.


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## mbhaub

Just saw this. No, it's not idiomatic for t-bone and it's not even written correctly. Those slurs: each note should have a line or dot to indicate articulation. Unless those slurs are really phrase markings, in which case they should be removed. Then there's the problem of playability. There's a reason those screamers written by people like Karl King work so well: he was a trombonist and understood the really serious problem of position changes. Just looking at the first 8 notes, 1 beat the position changes would go something like: 
2 1 3 4
4 3 4 5
3 4 2 4
4 2 4 5

Given the tempo, the rapid position changes and the distances involved makes this extremely taxing. It gets worse. A valve trombone would stand a chance!

When I was learning to orchestrate one of the best bits of advice I ever got was "never write a part that you don't know how to play". So true. And yes, in college marching band I was a proficient trombonist - taking after a relation on my dad's side: great-uncle Karl King.


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## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> Just saw this. No, it's not idiomatic for t-bone and it's not even written correctly. Those slurs: each note should have a line or dot to indicate articulation. Unless those slurs are really phrase markings, in which case they should be removed. Then there's the problem of playability. There's a reason those screamers written by people like Karl King work so well: he was a trombonist and understood the really serious problem of position changes. Just looking at the first 8 notes, 1 beat the position changes would go something like:
> 2 1 3 4
> 4 3 4 5
> 3 4 2 4
> 4 2 4 5
> 
> Given the tempo, the rapid position changes and the distances involved makes this extremely taxing. It gets worse. A valve trombone would stand a chance!
> 
> When I was learning to orchestrate one of the best bits of advice I ever got was "never write a part that you don't know how to play". So true. And yes, in college marching band I was a proficient trombonist - taking after a relation on my dad's side: great-uncle Karl King.


Right, Karl King, Henry Fillmore, Getty Huffine, etc wrote some really athletic trombone parts...there's a part in Mahler Sym #7/V that seems unplayable for the trombones...the tempo is fast, it comes out as a schmear, rather than clearly separate notes, as written...I don't have the score handy, but it occurs near the beginning, underneath the parts where the 3 trumpets have their consecutive high D passage...


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