# Round One: Carmen-: La fleur que tu m'avais jetée. Cortis and Thill



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)




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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The aria is sung in two different languages in this contest and it’s interesting to compare and contrast them. My boy Franco Corelli sang half of his many performances of Don Jose in Italian, especially in the beginning of his career in Italy, so I’m fairly familiar with the aria in that language, but I vastly prefer it in French. 

I am slightly disappointed with Georges Thill’s singing of the aria in his version. He seems to internalize most of the emotions in the aria, and there is hardly any overtly expressed. There’s a very subtle _messa di voce _in “_je t’aime,” _but that’s it for the niceties. Not that he does anything wrong! 

In contrast, Antonio Cortis, whom at first I thought was just singing, delivers the more emotive performance, without gilding the lilly.

As much as I adore Georges, I must go to Cortis.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Cortis is simply stunning. The voice itself is a superb one, and he gives us singing of such technical perfection, such ease, musicality and unforced feeling, that from almost the first note I listened with my mouth hanging open. Among other felicities, his portamenti are gorgeously judged and executed. Very few tenors I've heard have ever sung like this. Everyone who cares about singing would do well to hear it. That he sings in Italian seems completely unimportant.

That said, I have to say that Thill, too, is a paragon among tenors. I agree with MAS that he is emotionally restrained; I've noted this about him in other music too, and in general I'd characterize my feelings about him as more respectful than affectionate. Of course his style and diction are as impeccable as his vocalism, and it's mainly his relative coolness that places his Don Jose a notch below that of Cortis.

Seattle has started us off with two Golden Age tenors who are going to be hard to beat. It'll be fascinating to see who he comes up with next. Did Astrid Varnay ever sing this? (Don't hit me, John. I'm old and frail. )


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Two very fine singers give us two wonderful performances. Is it churlish of me to mention that neither of them attempts the pp top Bb Bizet asks for? Probably. Very few can do it, but I do like it when I hear it. In all other respects, Thill is exemplary, but I agree he comes across as slightly cool, where there is a bit more passion to Cortis's singing, though, thankfully, even though singing in Italian, he doesn't resort to any tasteless sobbing and his singing is still wonderfully stylish. Cortis just pips Thill to the post, but they are both marvellous.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

French wins !


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm not familiar with Cortis, so his clear and dulcet tone was a welcome discovery for me. I prefer the opera in French, but this is nicely done (apart from the nasal bit at the end). Nice.

I've never really got into Thill, not being that interested in lighter tenors and French rep, but I expected this one to be the winner. This is something else when heard just after Cortis' charming, but plain version. We have warmth, passion and ardour as well as a strong voice and perfect French. Thill easily wins.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I've never really got into Thill, not being that interested in _lighter tenors_ and French rep,
> 
> N.


I'd hardly categorise Thill as a lighter tenor. His repertoire included Samson, Aeneas, Tannhäuser and Parsifal.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'd hardly categorise Thill as a lighter tenor. His repertoire included Samson, Aeneas, Tannhäuser and Parsifal.


Very fair point. In fact he wasn't quite what I was expecting, so I've obviously had an idea in my head based on a false impression.

N.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Cortis for me... Interesting disc - well worth a listen - Here's a link to the label authorized complete recording - 23 selections -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nFithy0aQVjymBtnipdI9barZzYbXIUB8













This next link may be of interest to some as it covers a wide array of performers with their backstory and a critique of featured arias -

History of the Tenor - 100 Years of Music Compiled Into One Unique History Lesson - Sydney R. Barker

This is the page for Cortis -









Antonio Cortis - History of The Tenor


He was born Antonio Tomás Montón Corts to Spanish parents, on board a ship sailing between Oran (Algeria) and Altea (Spain).The small family (his father had died a week previously) moved to Valencia, later to Madrid.




historyofthetenor.com





The right side of the page lists the tenors who are featured...

Would have preferred - greatly preferred - that the narration be done with an Irish accent rather than a Scots though...


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Thill is it. Customarily elegant and in French, to boot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I'm not familiar with Cortis, so his clear and dulcet tone was a welcome discovery for me. I prefer the opera in French, but this is nicely done (apart from the nasal bit at the end). Nice.
> 
> I've never really got into Thill, not being that interested in lighter tenors and French rep, but I expected this one to be the winner. This is something else when heard just after Cortis' charming, but plain version. We have warmth, passion and ardour as well as a strong voice and perfect French. Thill easily wins.
> 
> N.


Cortis, plain? Are we listening to the same recording? His rendition is wonderfully shaped, replete with delicately controlled inflections, shadings, portamenti, and it keeps me listening, eager to hear what he'll do next. Even language aside, it isn't quite like anyone else's I've heard, in addition to being vocally superior to any in memory. Thill is exemplary and I wouldn't question anyone's preference, but as an interpretation it's pretty generic. Give them another spin!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Cortis, plain? Are we listening to the same recording? His rendition is wonderfully shaped, replete with delicately controlled inflections, shadings, portamenti, and it keeps me listening, eager to hear what he'll do next. Even language aside, it isn't quite like anyone else's I've heard, in addition to being vocally superior to any in memory. Thill is exemplary and I wouldn't question anyone's preference, but as an interpretation it's pretty generic. Give them another spin!


Exactly my thoughts too. I wasn't familiar with him before but after this went and listened to a selection of arias sung by him and it appears he was an exceptional artist. Thill's version is well sung but more what I'd call "plain" than Cortis' more emotive reading.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaughnessy said:


> Cortis for me... Interesting disc - well worth a listen
> 
> This is the page for Cortis -
> 
> ...


Could a Spaniard really have been born with the name "Corts"? Is that a typo for "Cortis" or "Cortes"?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Two very fine singers give us two wonderful performances. Is it churlish of me to mention that neither of them attempts the pp top Bb Bizet asks for? Probably. Very few can do it, but I do like it when I hear it. In all other respects, Thill is exemplary, but I agree he comes across as slightly cool, where there is a bit more passion to Cortis's singing, though, thankfully, even though singing in Italian, he doesn't resort to any tasteless sobbing and his singing is still wonderfully stylish. Cortis just pips Thill to the post, but they are both marvellous.


I had to look up "pip to the post," which to a Yank sounds charmingly Dickensian. I came up with "_To defeat or succeed over someone by a very narrow margin or at the final, crucial moment_, _especially in a race, competition, or athletic event."_

I've been educated. Thanks!


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Folks here are disregarding, intentionally or out of ignorance, that the (long lost) French operatic singing style is not one of wearing hearts on sleeves or one of showmanship or one of can belto bravado. Anyone with this in mind will naturally select Thill as the obvious choice of the two, for what is being defined as “plain” is hardly that but, rather, subtle or more subtle. Thus elegant. Words matter.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> Folks here are disregarding, intentionally or out of ignorance, that the (long lost) French operatic singing style is not one of wearing hearts on sleeves or one of showmanship or one of can belto bravado. Anyone with this in mind will naturally select Thill as the obvious choice of the two, for what is being defined as “plain” is hardly that but, rather, subtle or more subtle. Thus elegant. Words matter.


Folks are not necessarily ignorant of stereotypical "Frenchness," nor are they mischievous or merely contrarian. They may simply prefer a more original and creative musician to a more conventional, "correct" one.

Implicit in your criticism of others' tastes is a presumption that you know best what Bizet might have wanted in the interpretation of his music, stylistically and dramatically. You know no such thing. None of us do. 

"Wearing hearts on sleeves," "showmanship" and "can belto bravado" are completely inapplicable to either of these singers. You're arguing with a strawman. Why? Just looking for an opportunity to call others ignorant?


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ALT said:


> Folks here are disregarding, intentionally or out of ignorance, that the (long lost) French operatic singing style is not one of wearing hearts on sleeves or one of showmanship or one of can belto bravado. Anyone with this in mind will naturally select Thill as the obvious choice of the two, for what is being defined as “plain” is hardly that but, rather, subtle or more subtle. Thus elegant. Words matter.


Well Thill certainly sounds a lot more involved on other records. In those records is he less a paragon of the old French school? Is Emmy Calvé guilty of over-emoting too and her Carmen less authentically French? I don't think Cortis displays anything which goes against the basic character of the music, so I don't care if it's sung in Italian or more clearly emoted, it's simply excellent music making.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Could a Spaniard really have been born with the name "Corts"? Is that a typo for "Cortis" or "Cortes"?


Not a typo - It really is "Corts" -



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Cortis



Cortis was born at sea but his birthplace is often given as Dénia, in which city he spent his infancy. (*His name was originally Antonio Monton Corts* but he changed it for theatrical purposes.)


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Il mito dell'opera: Georges Thill (Recorded 1928-1933)

Link to label authorized complete recording - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n6RcMHhYy8scHhgFmROyfbxCjn0oTP8wc


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> Not a typo - It really is "Corts" -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's most likely to be of catalan or valencian origin.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> It's most likely to be of catalan or valencian origin.


That makes sense.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I think Giovanni Martinelli would have acquitted himself with distinction in this competition - 






SOF, if you ever want to use him in any other competitions, here are two links you can use - 

*Giovanni Martinelli Volume 1 1915-1928*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ll4tuSEpQabwGCtaP0vYdiO0IwIIXO98Q



*Giovanni Martinelli Volume 2 1913-1923*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kcBdQQfX8q6NlAbLfnHWT47e1Cig2Xlv8


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Carmen is not my first choice when I'm going to the opera and it's not an oeuvre to travel for (I imagine how many people have produced an indignant squeak reading this). I even didn't hear all the interesting mezzos of my theater in the role, and Borodina didn't sing it in Russia since I had begun attending the theater. As for tenors I'm unlikely to hear something like we heard here in near future. 
Both performances are excellent, and a wrong language didn't hinder in Cortis' case. Thill, on the other hand, has an advantage of singing in his native language (but his family name is not French!), which is often unaffordable for foreigners. I chose him, but another moment it could be Cortis.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Again, John, more backups for future competitions -

*Jussi Björling The First Ten Years 1930-1939*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lMVeR-ZrENh7BpWYq5RP8h0q5afoaVQIA




*Jussi Björling Volume 2 1936-1941*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nt_i-6qmTIrYZ09khH_llxwRHo5fjfz0M


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Personal favorites that I'll just post the links to - Add them to your warehouse of competitors for future contests...

*Giacomo Lauri-Volpi 1922-1942*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m5OljyZowWwEWQg5o-j3S4oB69DLkjZQ8




*Beniamino Gigli Volume 1 1918-1924*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lxdlvz63AfRxdnFSqiNLHo6dEny3LtgGY



*Beniamino Gigli Volume 2 1925-1939*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_krZtw2jmiwKwd1xmm4UHavisGq3k29QHA




*Tito Schipa 1913-1937*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ldhb9OsUddZdmoJdk1jbZMwSPinhXMnrc


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Perhaps most fascinating of all:

*Carl Martin Oehmann 1887-1967*


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Get my little corner ready. I know Thill will be top dog but I cannot escape the way Cortis elicits those last notes of "Carmen je t'aime (io t'amo") despite the fact that it was not done in French.
Normally, I find it difficult to choose a singer who does not sing the language in which it was written but Cortis made me change my mind.


Oops! looks like it's getting mighty crowded in my little corner. Perhaps I should serve some tea and crumpets to my guests.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Get my little corner ready. I know Thill will be top dog but I cannot escape the way Cortis elicits those last notes of "Carmen je t'aime (io t'amo") despite the fact that it was not done in French.
> Normally, I find it difficult to choose a singer who does not sing the language in which it was written but Cortis made me change my mind.
> 
> 
> Oops! looks like it's getting mighty crowded in my little corner. Perhaps I should serve some tea and crumpets to my guests.


Earl Gray for me. But is "Earl" his first name or his title? I'll not drink 'im 'til I know!


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I hope Oehmann makes it into a future round. We already had him in one of the teacher vs. student rounds, but I'd be interested to see how he does in a broader playing field. It's one of my very favorite opera recordings.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> As would this guy -
> 
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> 
> ...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I hope Oehmann makes it into a future round. We already had him in one of the teacher vs. student rounds, but I'd be interested to see how he does in a broader playing field. It's one of my very favorite opera recordings.


I put him in for you. Be sure to vote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Get my little corner ready. I know Thill will be top dog but I cannot escape the way Cortis elicits those last notes of "Carmen je t'aime (io t'amo") despite the fact that it was not done in French.
> Normally, I find it difficult to choose a singer who does not sing the language in which it was written but Cortis made me change my mind.
> 
> 
> Oops! looks like it's getting mighty crowded in my little corner. Perhaps I should serve some tea and crumpets to my guests.


It is a good thing Cortis didn't sing with a piano 😜


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is a good thing Cortis didn't sing with a piano 😜


This is true blasphemy when my very own beloved mate was a pianist trained at Curtis Institute in Philadelphia by none other than Rudolf Serkin. (for shame)


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You're getting ahead of me!!!!!!!!!!!


I just saw the "Round One" - I pulled it - Edit your reply post and only the links to the complete recordings will exist - My apologies - At the airport - Bored and, as per usual modus operandi, wasn't paying attention.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> This is true blasphemy when my very own beloved mate was a pianist trained at Curtis Institute in Philadelphia by none other than Rudolf Serkin. (for shame)


Sorry. I thought you didn't like contestants who performed operatic arias with piano and so I pulled them all. I was just joking with you on this. Oops. How lucky you must be to hear your husband play.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> I think Giovanni Martinelli would have acquitted himself with distinction in this competition -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a greatly expanded roster of contestants now. If you get tired of this aria it is not my fault


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have a greatly expanded roster of contestants now. If you get tired of this aria it is not my fault


It's OK. Long, complex melodies that draw you onward are less likely to become earworms than short, catchy ones that hammer out the same snippets over and over. La donna may be mobile, but her little ditty gets your brain stuck in park and makes you want to jump off a bridge.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> I think Giovanni Martinelli would have acquitted himself with distinction in this competition -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whilst I greatly appreciate all the help that Shaughnessy provides behind the scenes in finding many clips for these contests on YouTube I can't stop myself pointing out that these Nimbus releases are usually the ones with some of the worst sound. They suffer from echo and the voices often sound recessed to my ear. I don't know if the Romophone sets are on YouTube or Naxos or Marston records, but almost any other version is likely to be better.

N.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Whilst I greatly appreciate all the help that Shaughnessy provides behind the scenes in finding many clips for these contests on YouTube I can't stop myself pointing out that these Nimbus releases are usually the ones with some of the worst sound. They suffer from echo and the voices often sound recessed to my ear. I don't know if the Romophone sets are on YouTube or Naxos or Marston records, but almost any other version is likely to be better.
> 
> N.


I only worked with John for about a week and spent most of the time trying to show him a variety of techniques that would allow him to broaden his searches. He gets - and deserves - all of the credit for selecting the arias and curating the performers and performances which appear in these contests - my active involvement ended weeks ago.

The Nimbus selections that I have been providing as recommendations lately are nothing more than suggestions. I know that these releases can be somewhat divisive but before posting them, I always read the Gramophone review and if it's favorable - which they almost uniformly are - I then go ahead and post it. Most of the "Prima Voce" selections that have been released are available for use and have been authorized by Nimbus.

Authorized Naxos releases are notoriously difficult, if not actually impossible, to find except as "fan recordings" which tend to emphasize visual effects at the expense of audio quality. Smaller labels jealously guard - rightly so because of legitimate copyright infringement issues - their catalogs and if their recordings are uploaded to YouTube, the label will request and succeed in having them removed - Some of the uploads that I've seen for other artists can last less than 24 hours before being pulled.

I can almost always find label authorized recordings of most everything that might be available but I'm only as good as that which is actually out there but you have my sincere thanks for both the kind words and the suggestions, which I know were offered in good faith.


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