# Did Leonard Bernstein and von Karajan ever meet?



## Oldhoosierdude

Just wondering.


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## mbhaub

Yes, they did. In fact, at one point Karajan invited Bernstein to his home in Bavaria. Bernstein referred to HvK as "My first Nazi". The two were alike in many ways: short, enjoyed wealth and adulation. Both were legendary heroes in Vienna, especially at the opera. When DG took Bernstein into its fold, there was a great deal of anger from Karajan; Bernstein didn't conduct in Berlin until Karajan died. Karajan must have been quite jealous of the American's success in some works that he thought he was the superior conductor of: Carmen, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff in particular. But Lenny beat him handily in that repertoire as well as Schumann, Mahler, even (arguably) Beethoven.


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## BiscuityBoyle

You can ask this question about any two famous classical performers operating contemporaneously and the answer will be yes 99% of the time. It's a very small world.


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## Heliogabo

Somewhere relaxing in a party:


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## rodrigaj

In a letter dated 7 January 1954 to his wife Felicia, from St Moritz, Switzerland:

_"And I became real good friends with von Karajan, whom you would (and wil) adore. My first Nazi."_


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## Granate

I would buy the jealousy plot taking into account this old thread about Karajan's visit to the US.



SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I don't know if it counts as news, as some of you may have already read this, or knew about it.
> 
> As it was news to me, I thought I would share this interesting article.
> 
> Why did Karajan have such an aversion to Bernstein
> 
> It seems as though they could have been friends if the cards weren't dealt so poorly.


I put the new link because the tumblr blog had changed the username. It's the same chapter from the distinguished Karajan hater Brünnisolde Nilsson.


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## mbhaub

BiscuityBoyle said:


> You can ask this question about any two famous classical performers operating contemporaneously and the answer will be yes 99% of the time. It's a very small world.


It's also a world of extreme pettiness and jealousy. There are many big name conductors who refused to meet or listen to anything by the competition. Read the biography of Arthur Fiedler written by his late daughter to get a feel for how bad things could be. Andre Kostelanetz faired no better in New York.


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## Dimace

mbhaub said:


> Yes, they did. In fact, at one point Karajan invited Bernstein to his home in Bavaria. Bernstein referred to HvK as "My first Nazi". The two were alike in many ways: short, enjoyed wealth and adulation. Both were legendary heroes in Vienna, especially at the opera. When DG took Bernstein into its fold, there was a great deal of anger from Karajan; Bernstein didn't conduct in Berlin until Karajan died. Karajan must have been quite jealous of the American's success in some works that he thought he was the superior conductor of: Carmen, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff in particular. But Lenny beat him handily in that repertoire as well as Schumann, Mahler, even (arguably) Beethoven.


Karajan wasn't a Nazi. He was a German aristocrat, who, like the whole German aristocracy, was mentally quite near to Hitler's ideas but sentimentally too far away from them. Hitler was for them nothing more than a WW1 corporal, who was hatting their noble ideas and he was surrounded with savages, with no respect for their titles. Of course, during the Nazi regime, everyone from them remained silent and they looked to do jobs with him instead to fight without hope against a brutal tyranny. Hitler, himself, because of his humble origin, was against the aristocrats and for this reason, almost everyone of his associates was from humble German families. Men totally unsuccessful in their lives. Many of them they were unemployed or they had sentenced in German Prisons, like Hitler himself, etc... So, Karajan and Nazi are two things they are not relevant to each other.

Yes! Lenny was better conductor than our Herby! For me almost a no comparison. I respect Karajan, but Lenny is a big love for me, because he is also a great teacher and SUPER composer.


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## mbhaub

Dimace said:


> Karajan wasn't a Nazi.


He joined twice. He may have joined up for career advancement reasons, but yes, he was a card-carrying member.


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## amfortas

mbhaub said:


> Karajan must have been quite jealous of the American's success in some works that he thought he was the superior conductor of: Carmen, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff in particular. But Lenny beat him handily in that repertoire . . .


Beat him in what sense? I wouldn't say he made better recordings of those works.


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## Dimace

mbhaub said:


> He joined twice. He may have joined up *for career advancement* reasons, but yes, he was a card-carrying member.


...to save his life and the life of his family, for the beginning. I must remind you that any disobey against the regime was fatal for the whole family of whom had made it. Other artists and prominent resisted the tyranny, is the truth. You can see their names, written in thousand metal bars built inside into Berlins sidewalks, as small signs on the facades of numerus buildings, etc. The worse is that seldom these names are only for the victim. Together, are the names of their wives, children etc. Dark ages...


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## KenOC

Karajan was indeed a member of the Nazi party, just like a certain hero of my youth who was a primary player in putting our astronauts on the moon. Here's a nice song about him!


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## Pharmagician

In fact Bernstein did conduct the Berlin Philharmonic before HvK died - in 1979:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...75332&sr=1-2&keywords=bernstein+mahler+berlin


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## DavidA

mbhaub said:


> Yes, they did. In fact, at one point Karajan invited Bernstein to his home in Bavaria. Bernstein referred to HvK as "My first Nazi". The two were alike in many ways: short, enjoyed wealth and adulation. Both were legendary heroes in Vienna, especially at the opera. When DG took Bernstein into its fold, there was a great deal of anger from Karajan; Bernstein didn't conduct in Berlin until Karajan died. Karajan must have been quite jealous of the American's success in some works that he thought he was the superior conductor of: Carmen, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff in particular. *But Lenny beat him handily in that repertoire as well as Schumann, Mahler, even (arguably) Beethoven.*


Frankly to say 'lennie' beat Karajan in the repertory you describe is highly contentious, let alone beat him 'handily'. Lennie's Carmen is so eccentric as to be unbelievable in spite of the sales. I love his conducting of Falstaff but not sure his set matches the Karajan / Legge version, which must rank as one of the greatest opera recordings ever. Ditto the Rosenkavelier. Beethoven? Just listen to Karajan in 63.


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## DavidA

This is an interesting article by an insider to help clear up the myths.

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/titelgeschichten/20182019/bernstein/

Note: "Neither of the two regarded the other as a friend, but they respected each other and there was no animosity. Although he had long been considered a world star, the fact that Bernstein had never previously appeared as guest conductor of "his" (Karajan's) Berliner Philharmoniker was by no means the result of any decision taken on the part of Karajan."


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## mbhaub

Don't just go by recordings. Bernstein's Carmen, Falstaff, and Rosenkav are still legendary in Vienna - people still talk about those performances. Older members of the Philharmonic who played with him in those days talked about how thrilling it was - he swept away the cobwebs and brought life to music that had become routine. His Vienna Fidelio was something incredible from all reports. Sometimes (often?) recordings just cannot capture the musical qualities and that's why when Bernstein went to DG he insisted more and more on live recording, as well as having things filmed. 

I like some HvK - some of it is great, and sometimes I think his recordings are superior to Bernstein. But not always. Bernstein's Schumann is hard to beat and it's not just me - a lot of critics and record reviewers agree. Karajan was a great Sibelius conductor, but Bernstein is no slouch either. They both turned out terrific Falstaffs to be sure, but Lenny brought a rhythmic vitality to the show. HvK's Beethoven was great - early on. I still prefer his mono EMI set to the 64 DG. His later sets, esp. the digital ones were not so good. Bernstein's early Beethoven on Columbia wasn't fully formed and not particularly outstanding. But his Vienna recordings on DVD are just wonderful.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I truly didn't know and wondered if there was a rift between them. Plus I am evil and want to start an argument. 

Did karajan ever conduct in Israel I wonder?

I don't have a huge problem with HVK. Anymore than I do with Russian composers who had to bow to the Soviets. I may be blind in thinking they did what they had to do. To my knowledge HVK never said anything anti Semitic.


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## KenOC

Von Karajan may have been a Nazi but Hitler was no fan. In the late 1930s, Hitler was attending a performance of Parsifal in Bayreuth accompanied by Winifred Wagner. Herbie was conducting without a score. He lost his place and had to start the segment again. Hitler was irritated and said, “This man will never again conduct in Bayreuth so long as I’m alive.”

And he didn’t.


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## Dimace

KenOC said:


> Von Karajan may have been a Nazi but Hitler was no fan. In the late 1930s, Hitler was attending a performance of Parsifal in Bayreuth accompanied by Winifred Wagner. Herbie was conducting without a score. He lost his place and had to start the segment again. Hitler was irritated and said, "This man will never again conduct in Bayreuth so long as I'm alive."
> 
> And he didn't.


Was it ever possible, any aristocrat, any man of arts and spirit, to be with the pigs? Is the same as someone tells me that the Pr. Trump sleeps under the bridges with the homeless.


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## Merl

It's pointless trying to compare the two. Like any conductors of a certain age they made some excellent recordings. I am no fanboy of either conductor but admire Bernstein's Schumann and Idiomatic Mahler, Karajan's first BPO Beethoven cycle and Tchaikovsky. I'm not gonna focus on the negatives. Both men had those.


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## CnC Bartok

Last week I visited the Jewish Museum on Judenplatz in Vienna, mainly archaeological remains of the old synagogue. However, the top two rooms were dedicated to an exhibit on Bernstein in Vienna, including lots of photos and even LP records one could actually play! Gave me an opportunity to demonstrate correct handling of vinyl to my two girls! And the exhibit was pretty well put together too.

A small section on Bernstein and other conductors had photos of Lenny with - among others - Herbie, as well as correspondence between the two, which was clearly warm and at worst cordial. Obviously there to debunk the "they hate each other" myth. Unless both were the most two-faced gits who ever lived.....?


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## Itullian

I can't think of anything that they both recorded where I like Karajan better,


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## elgar's ghost

I'd have paid £100 to see the two of them sing _We're a Couple of Swells_ or _I Got You, Babe_ together.


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## rodrigaj

For those who have seen Karajan live, I have wondered about this:

Did Karajan actually conduct with eyes closed, looking down, not making eye contact with the orchestra players?

Digital Concert Hall, the subscription service of live BPO performances, has all of these videos of Karajan, but they are all edited with lighting effects and camera angles and silhouettes of audience members. Obviously not actual live performances.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> Von Karajan may have been a Nazi but Hitler was no fan. In the late 1930s, Hitler was attending a performance of Parsifal in Bayreuth accompanied by Winifred Wagner. Herbie was conducting without a score. He lost his place and had to start the segment again. Hitler was irritated and said, "This man will never again conduct in Bayreuth so long as I'm alive."
> 
> And he didn't.


Actually I believe it was a performance of Mastersingers. It was the bass who lost his place and as he was without a score, Karajan couldn't fix it.


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## DavidA

rodrigaj said:


> For those who have seen Karajan live, I have wondered about this:
> 
> *Did Karajan actually conduct with eyes closed, looking down, not making eye contact with the orchestra players?
> *
> Digital Concert Hall, the subscription service of live BPO performances, has all of these videos of Karajan, but they are all edited with lighting effects and camera angles and silhouettes of audience members. Obviously not actual live performances.


Yes according to his players he did in orchestral concerts. Not in opera though


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## DavidA

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I truly didn't know and wondered if there was a rift between them. Plus I am evil and want to start an argument.
> 
> *Did karajan ever conduct in Israel I wonder?
> *
> I don't have a huge problem with HVK. *Anymore than I do with Russian composers who had to bow to the Soviets.* I may be blind in thinking they did what they had to do. To my knowledge HVK never said anything anti Semitic.


Karajan never conducted in Israel and certain Jewish musicians refused to work with him - Stern, Perlmann, Tucker among them - because of his Nazi past. Of course, Karajan's concert master, Schwalbe, was a Jew.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/oct/29/michel-schwalbe


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> Actually I believe it was a performance of Mastersingers. It was the bass who lost his place and as he was without a score, Karajan couldn't fix it.


Here's my source. I was working from memory and it seems you were right, it was Die Meistersinger.

'Hitler singled out the upcoming violinist David Oistrakh, a Jew, as a particular talent for the future, but Winifred told me that "Wolf" (Hitler) had only scorn for the famed conductor Herbert von Karajan after he fumbled at one point in a gala performance of Die Meistersinger for the King and Queen of Yugoslavia in June 1939. Conducting without a score, Karajan lost his way, the singers halted, the curtain was rung down in confusion. Furious, Hitler directed Winifred: "Herr von Karajan will never conduct at Bayreuth in my lifetime" -- and he did not.'

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/Wagner/Hamann1.html


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## Triplets

Dimace said:


> ...to save his life and the life of his family, for the beginning. I must remind you that any disobey against the regime was fatal for the whole family of whom had made it. Other artists and prominent resisted the tyranny, is the truth. You can see their names, written in thousand metal bars built inside into Berlins sidewalks, as small signs on the facades of numerus buildings, etc. The worse is that seldom these names are only for the victim. Together, are the names of their wives, children etc. Dark ages...


First of all, Karajan was Austrian, not a "German" Aristocrat. Secondly, Karajan's two Nazi Party cards were not explainable by any imminent danger to his Family, but more by opportunism on his part


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## science

Dimace said:


> ...to save his life and the life of his family, for the beginning. I must remind you that any disobey against the regime was fatal for the whole family of whom had made it. Other artists and prominent resisted the tyranny, is the truth. You can see their names, written in thousand metal bars built inside into Berlins sidewalks, as small signs on the facades of numerus buildings, etc. The worse is that seldom these names are only for the victim. Together, are the names of their wives, children etc. Dark ages...


We need to resolve to be braver than that when we face the same trials.


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## Dimace

Triplets said:


> First of all, Karajan was Austrian, not a "German" Aristocrat. Secondly, Karajan's two Nazi Party cards were not explainable by any imminent danger to his Family, but more by opportunism on his part


Karagiannis, was his ancestors name. From northern Greek. Ritter was his title. Von = from the Karagiannis family. Not a very special aristocratic ruts after all.

*The German, Austrian and Czech composers in the years of deportation is something I know very well as a German. You can also, if you want, find recordings with them, included their tragical end. There is no excuse certainly for someone to be a Nazi. But the life is sweet and not all of us are heroes. Thanks for the chance you gave me to write something more.


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## Granate

I am reading the same debate as ever, but why don't we talk about the two maestro's opposite personalities?


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## Oldhoosierdude

Granate said:


> I am reading the same debate as ever, but why don't we talk about the two maestro's opposite personalities?


From what I have pieced together Bernstein was generous and affectionate with those he liked but a bit of an elitist to others. HVK is always portrayed as a prima Donna. Don't know how accurate any of that is.

As conductors, both of them have recordings I like . Bernstein has more than HVK.


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## DavidA

Triplets said:


> First of all, Karajan was Austrian, not a "German" Aristocrat. Secondly, Karajan's two Nazi Party cards were not explainable by any imminent danger to his Family, but more by opportunism on his part


He wanted the job and Aachen and felt membership of the party was a necessity to get it. We must also remember than in 1933 that many considered Hitler some sort of saviour of Germany - including some politicians in the West.


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## DavidA

Oldhoosierdude said:


> From what I have pieced together Bernstein was generous and affectionate with those he liked but a bit of an elitist to others. HVK is always portrayed as a prima Donna. Don't know how accurate any of that is.
> 
> As conductors, both of them have recordings I like . Bernstein has more than HVK.


Both were prima donnas in their way. However, Bernstein was an extrovert who loved being around people. He was of the 'let it all hang out' variety. Karajan was an introvert who kept himself to himself. He could be generous when he chose, expecially to young artists. At the height of his powers he went to teach at a young people's music retreat, ate with them, talked personally to them about their careers and paid his own expenses. Of course he could afford to but many glossy maestros insisted on a fee which put them beyond reach of such things. Apparently the only Karajanism came when he asked the authorities if the local airport runway could be extended to accommodate his jet! When this request was politely refused he hired an alternative plane to fly himself in.


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## Enthusiast

I like many of Karajan's recordings and some are just amazing (much of his Sibelius!). But I very rarely think of them as definitive or even as "capturing well" the work in question. They can be essential must-haves but never as an only recording of a work. 

By contrast, Bernstein's recordings - even some of the apparently really over-the-top ones - do often somehow seem to my ears to capture a credible version of a work's essence. This sounds counter-intuitive and even contradictory but it is how I experience it even when Bernstein is apparently perverse (I love his much hated Enigma Variations, for example!). But Bernstein could sometimes be really indulgent - by which I mean, not just apparently perverse, but also destroying the flow and therefore just plain boring (some of his later Mahler recordings do this for me while others are just amazing). 

It is surely no surprise that the two conductors respected each other's work.


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## Dimace

Granate said:


> I am reading the same debate as ever, but why don't we talk about the two maestro's opposite personalities?


Because is in the human nature to debate for the most unimportant and to ignore what really matters…


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## Barbebleu

Surely this thread has no purpose now. The OP asked if Bernstein and Karajan ever met? They did. End of story!, 
If we want a discussion (i.e. acrimonious debate) on their relative merits then someone should start a new thread posing such a question.


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## 1996D

mbhaub said:


> Yes, they did. In fact, at one point Karajan invited Bernstein to his home in Bavaria. Bernstein referred to HvK as "My first Nazi". The two were alike in many ways: short, enjoyed wealth and adulation. Both were legendary heroes in Vienna, especially at the opera. When DG took Bernstein into its fold, there was a great deal of anger from Karajan; Bernstein didn't conduct in Berlin until Karajan died. Karajan must have been quite jealous of the American's success in some works that he thought he was the superior conductor of: Carmen, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff in particular. But Lenny beat him handily in that repertoire as well as Schumann, Mahler, even (arguably) Beethoven.


Karajan's Mahler and Schumann is on par with Bernstein's and he plays Mahler's 9th much better--takes it to new levels. His Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Bruckner is even better and when it comes to Beethoven he runs away with it.

Bernstein takes Brahms, Sibelius, Haydn, Mozart and the Mahler Karajan never conducted.


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## Brahmsianhorn

For me Karajan was better at more modern repertoire - Debussy, Ravel, Sibelius, Strauss, Grieg, the Second Viennese School, Honegger, even his Stravinsky that got lambasted by the composer. I think these composers fit Karajan’s aesthetic better that the German Romantics. As Bruno Walter once said, you have to have felt and lived the emotions to adequately conduct these works. Lenny could be undisciplined at times, but the heart and soul were always there.


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## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> For me Karajan was better at more modern repertoire - Debussy, Ravel, Sibelius, Strauss, Grieg, the Second Viennese School, Honegger, even his Stravinsky that got lambasted by the composer. I think these composers fit Karajan's aesthetic better that the German Romantics. As Bruno Walter once said, you have to have felt and lived the emotions to adequately conduct these works. Lenny could be undisciplined at times, but the heart and soul were always there.


On the other hand, Karajan's Bruckner, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Tchaikovsky are all quite creditable.

I think Karajan tends to emphasize the austere beauty, forward drive, and sonic power of some works, while Bersntein meanders in beauteous passages. Either is probably fine and ends up being a matter of taste.


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> I think Karajan tends to emphasize the austere beauty, forward drive, and sonic power of some works, while Bersntein meanders in beauteous passages. Either is probably fine and ends up being a matter of taste.


It's about what we value most. Karajan's austere beauty and sonic power are to my ear more suited to Richard Strauss. Beethoven's music is more about lofty ideals, and Bernstein understood that better than Karajan IMO.


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## tonguc

If you check his Telemondial recordings i.e. video recordings made between 1982-1989 (which are recently got available on Medici.Tv with updated sound and video quality, even with better editing) you will see that it was not the case, at least during his last years and with orchestral pieces.

Anyway, as far as I know, he never closed his eyes during opera and choral music performances. Pre 1980's his eyes seems closed at orchestral music performances.


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## superhorn

mbhaub said:


> Yes, they did. In fact, at one point Karajan invited Bernstein to his home in Bavaria. Bernstein referred to HvK as "My first Nazi". The two were alike in many ways: short, enjoyed wealth and adulation. Both were legendary heroes in Vienna, especially at the opera. When DG took Bernstein into its fold, there was a great deal of anger from Karajan; Bernstein didn't conduct in Berlin until Karajan died. Karajan must have been quite jealous of the American's success in some works that he thought he was the superior conductor of: Carmen, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff in particular. But Lenny beat him handily in that repertoire as well as Schumann, Mahler, even (arguably) Beethoven.


 Actually , Bernstein made his only appearances with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1979 , ten years before the death of Karajan , with a legendary Mahler 9th which was preserved on DG . Apparently, Karajan wasn't all THAT envious of Bernstein .


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## fluteman

Triplets said:


> First of all, Karajan was Austrian, not a "German" Aristocrat. Secondly, Karajan's two Nazi Party cards were not explainable by any imminent danger to his Family, but more by opportunism on his part


Right. He was a poor anonymous nobody who did what he had to do to get his career going -- at the expense of a Jewish conductor in Aschen who was fired, iirc. After the war, he again did whatever he had to do to keep his career going, working for Walter Legge and EMI. His focus was always on his own career, regardless of who may have suffered for it, and certainly not on the greater good of mankind. He was no Nazi war criminal, but the Nazis would never have succeeded without people like him being willing to focus narrowly on themselves and ignore the greater evil before them. On the other hand, it is always easier for those born into financially comfortable circumstances to take the high ground and refuse to dance with the devil. That wasn't Karajan.

Ironically, Bernstein was on the other end of the spectrum, arguably trying too hard to promote the greater good of mankind, even when his efforts brought him away from music into areas where he was much more naive and less competent. Even well-meaning friends and hangers-on constantly looked to him for help that he had difficulty refusing. Towards the end he became bitter and depressed, in part because he apparently felt that he had spent too much time and effort promoting the work of other contemporary composers rather than on his own music.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Barbebleu said:


> Surely this thread has no purpose now. The OP asked if Bernstein and Karajan ever met? They did. End of story!,
> If we want a discussion (i.e. acrimonious debate) on their relative merits then someone should start a new thread posing such a question.


Right (I am OP). I was curious. Karajan always implied that he did what he had to do. But generally, post war, Nazi's were criticized. Crap, there is even the story that Barenboim was not allowed to conduct Wagner at a concert in Israel, and Wagner was only liked by Nazi's.


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## flamencosketches

Oldhoosierdude said:


> generally, post war, Nazi's were criticized.


:lol: Understatement of the century.


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## fluteman

Barbebleu said:


> Surely this thread has no purpose now. The OP asked if Bernstein and Karajan ever met? They did. End of story!,
> If we want a discussion (i.e. acrimonious debate) on their relative merits then someone should start a new thread posing such a question.


In that case, I must ask you: How do you feel about the music of John Cage, and in particular, 4'33"? If it's just 4'33" of silence, should it really be considered music at all? And is atonal music just one big mistake? Is modern music? Aren't they the same thing? Why can't today's composers go back to writing the kind of music written in the 18th and 19th centuries? You know, the kind with good melodies? How can you appreciate great music if you don't believe in God?
And finally, why was Wagner such a Jew hater?
And so forth, for 1,000+ posts. There, now we've covered it.


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## MatthewWeflen

fluteman said:


> In that case, I must ask you: How do you feel about the music of John Cage, and in particular, 4'33"? If it's just 4'33" of silence, should it really be considered music at all? And is atonal music just one big mistake? Is modern music? Aren't they the same thing? Why can't today's composers go back to writing the kind of music written in the 18th and 19th centuries? You know, the kind with good melodies? How can you appreciate great music if you don't believe in God?
> And finally, why was Wagner such a Jew hater?
> And so forth, for 1,000+ posts. There, now we've covered it.


I really like this idea for a thread!

I'll start.

I think modern composers have all been corrupted by the liberals (or possibly the conservatives) to hate beauty, which is why they've rejected melody and structure. It's all part of the general downfall of the human race.


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## Merl

I'd forgotten about this thread but I've been doing a lot of reading about Bernstein, Karajan and Furtwangler recently. All very interesting and different individuals. By common consensus it's accepted that the two first met in Milan in 1954 (both were conducting at La Scala). Although they were very different personalities they did get on as they both respected each other greatly and after that concert they met up (by accident they were in the same place). Bernstein was apparently a bit miffed after Karajan stole the show but the two men chatted and to try and change the subject Lenny asked Herbie how he relaxed in his spare time. Herbie mentioned he was a keen skier but Lenny said he'd never skied. Lenny left for his hotel bed shortly after, only to be awoken by Karajan, stood at the hotel door with a full set of skiing clobber and gear and offered to take him skiing. Lenny declined the offer politely but aparrently the two men sat in Lenny's hotel room all night, laughing and talking about music. Lukas Foss, the conductor and lifelong friend of Bernstein, explained what happened later, revealing that the two men kept in touch over the proceeding years and Berstein invited HvK to lead the NYPO. All went well and Karajan (who was initially reluctant to go due to anti-German feeling since the war) was invited over again. Foss said that their next meeting was catastrophic and led to years of a acrimony. In November Bernstein invited Karajan to conduct the New York Philharmonic. Karajan was unsure, feeling that there may be a bad reaction to a former Nazi party member, conducting to avery Jewish New York audience. Bernstein assured him that all would be fine and pulled strings to get him over again. According to Foss, Bernstein said that although Von Karajan's performance in Carnegie Hall was excellent and the majority of the audience loved it (the concert was sold out too) and it all ended with "Some frenzied booing against Karajan by a few members of the audience." Bernstein hurried inmediately to Karajan’s dressing room to give him some consolation. There was already a throng of autographs seekers and Bernstein waited politely in the group until his turn came to speak with Karajan. Just as he reached the door, Karajan's aide, Von Mattoni, coldly slammed the door, with the explanation that the maestro was too exhausted to receive any more admirers.

"He later tried to get in touch with Karajan in Salzburg and Vienna but to not avail. Karajan believed that he (Bernstein) was responsible for the small demonstration against him in New York. He regretted that he was powerless to rectify this great misunderstanding.”.
Karajan 's widow explained that her husband was "extremely upset about the incident" and it took a decade or more before the men were back on speaking terms after a chance encounter in Vienna where allegedly Bernstein went out of his way to apologise. Foss said that after that the pair occasionally met up infrequently when in the same city in Europe, but neither invited the other to conduct, explaining that by then it was less about 'failure' and had become more of a bit of professional one-upmanship from both men. "From what he said (Bernstein) I think they also sold more records as a result of this 'rivalry - it certainly never hurt their record sales". It may also have been due to engagements their chance to meet was limited. However, many witnesses to their few public meetings often attested to the fact that when in each others' vicinity they "made a beeline for each other". More (secret) meetings did continue right up to HvK's death. Allegedly, according to an unnamed friend of Bernstein, Karajan told Bernstein just (before he died) that he wanted him to succeed him as leader of the BPO, saying "They want you. ". As there are no other attestations to this claim this may just be a myth..but it's still a good story.


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## Rmathuln

I have often wondered if Karajan was in attendance at the 10/1979 Mahler 9th with BPO under Bernstein.


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## Merl

............................


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## Phil in Magnolia

Heliogabo said:


> Somewhere relaxing in a party:
> 
> View attachment 109575


That is a great photo!


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## Oldhoosierdude

Interesting stuff. I originally asked the question because 1. I didn't know and thought them to be an odd pairing. 2. I was too lazy to look it up for myself and knew people here would have the answer. I truly had no other motive and didn't intend for a few to go off the rails, although not surprised they did.


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## Rogerx

Heliogabo said:


> Somewhere relaxing in a party:
> 
> View attachment 109575





Phil in Magnolia said:


> That is a great photo!


I agree with Phil, great picture


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## Phil in Magnolia

Rogerx said:


> I agree with Phil, great picture


(I wanted to come up with something clever about what they might be talking about, decided that since they are obviously at a cocktail party or something along those lines and would have simply been making amicable small talk; I really like the atmosphere the photo captures, the elegance of the two conductors with smiles on their faces and in their tuxes, a beautiful woman with her fur draped across her shoulders giving them her rapt attention)


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## Brahmsianhorn

I don’t know if this is really true, but I once heard they each said about the other after meeting, “I had no idea he was so short”


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## Rogerx

Phil in Magnolia said:


> (I wanted to come up with something clever about what they might be talking about, decided that since they are obviously at a cocktail party or something along those lines and would have simply been making amicable small talk; I really like the atmosphere the photo captures, the elegance of the two conductors with smiles on their faces and in their tuxes, a beautiful woman with her fur draped across her shoulders giving them her rapt attention)


Believe it or not, I thought the same. :lol:


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## Merl

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I don't know if this is really true, but I once heard they each said about the other after meeting, "I had no idea he was so short"


Sounds legit. It was comment many people made on meeting Karajan. "A little man with big hands".


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I don't know if this is really true, but I once heard they each said about the other after meeting, "I had no idea he was so short"


Karajan was a small man. He once annoyed the Vienna Philharmonic (I think) by telling them they need to stand up for him when he walked into the lounge. They knew it wasn't a matter of respect but because he was smaller than all of them!


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## DavidA

The other guy in the photo is Mitroupolis who acted as a mentor to both and who acted as a peacemaker when their relationship cooled. I think we can say the relationship was cordial but never close. Bernstein referred to Karajan as ‘My first Nazi’ and Karajan to Bernstein as ‘Mr Music’. There appears to have been a lot of admiration (sometimes grudging) on both sides for their musicianship


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