# I Don't Care for Mozart's Operas



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.

The only Opera I've watched and loved is Pelleas et Melissande. I love it's subdued nature musically, and the Libretto is fantastic! I love the unhappy ending.

His great Mass in C Minor I do love, though!


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

To answer the inevitable question, i've watched Figaro, The Magic Flute & Don Giovanni (Live).


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.
> 
> The only Opera I've watched and loved is Pelleas et Melissande. I love it's subdued nature musically, and the Libretto is fantastic! I love the unhappy ending.
> 
> His great Mass in C Minor I do love, though!


How many operas by any composer have you seen (or heard)? Have you heard any Wagner, Strauss, or Verdi? If the only opera you like is Pelleas et Melissande, perhaps there's something about the operatic sound that you simply find unpleasant.

I assume you know that the Mozart operas you've seen are considered not only among the greatest operas ever written but also some of the greatest music ever written. The descriptions screechy, repetitive, and harsh probably don't often come to mind by those who love opera. Since you love Mozart, do you have any sense of why his voices would turn wonderful music into such unpleasant sounds?


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

That's a shame. Don't know what else to tell you, but you're missing out. Maybe, try them again in 5 years. 

I'm not much for opera myself, but Mozart's Holy Trinity (the same 3 you mentioned) are some of the few full operas that I have watched/listened to and enjoyed. I still have yet to see any opera live. Maybe that will push me over the fence.

Side note: if you liked Pelléas, maybe try Bluebeard's Castle, by Bartók. That opera left a huge impression on me. A good deal of truly beautiful music there. Truth be told, I still have yet to see or hear Pelléas et Mélisande in full. I know I'm going to love it, just haven't decided on a recording.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> How many operas by any composer have you seen (or heard)? Have you heard any Wagner, Strauss, or Verdi? If the only opera you like is Pelleas et Melissande, perhaps there's something about the operatic sound that you simply find unpleasant.
> 
> I assume you know that the Mozart operas you've seen are considered not only among the greatest operas ever written but also some of the greatest music ever written. The descriptions screechy, repetitive, and harsh probably don't often come to mind by those who love opera. Since you love Mozart, do you have any sense of why his voices would turn wonderful music into such unpleasant sounds?


It could be the renditions I've heard, but overall I just don't enjoy them. I love almost everything else I've heard by Mozart though; Divertimentos, SQs, Masses, Piano Sonatas and Piano Concertos (esp. the 2nd mvt. of no 21).

Also, what does it matter what is "considered to be great" if you don't like it?


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> That's a shame. Don't know what else to tell you, but you're missing out. Maybe, try them again in 5 years.
> 
> I'm not much for opera myself, but Mozart's Holy Trinity (the same 3 you mentioned) are some of the few full operas that I have watched/listened to and enjoyed. I still have yet to see any opera live. Maybe that will push me over the fence.
> 
> Side note: if you liked Pelléas, maybe try Bluebeard's Castle, by Bartók. That opera left a huge impression on me. A good deal of truly beautiful music there. Truth be told, I still have yet to see or hear Pelléas et Mélisande in full. I know I'm going to love it, just haven't decided on a recording.


Maybe I'll watch Bluebeard's Castle tonight!


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Also, what does it matter what is "considered to be great" if you don't like it?


Because you just might give it additional hearings if the consensus is that it's great?


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I've also seen Beethoven's Opera, Fidelio, fwiw.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.


I agree! Not of fan of Mozart in general to be honest, but I really cannot tolerate opera this early. Give me Wagner, Strauss, Puccini or Korngold any day. The first time I attended the Vienna Opera they did Magic Flute. I was so terribly bored I left after Act I. Friends were mortified. Didn't care. The next evening's Elektra was terrific!


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Because you just might give it additional hearings if the consensus is that it's great?


Do you condone that behavior?


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe opera was Mozart’s true love because he loved the voice as much as instruments and it combined so many elements, despite his being great in so many other forms. It might be worthwhile to keep that in mind to understand another aspect of his genius in the coming years. The operas spring from inside the same man but don’t necessarily reveal themselves to the listeners in the same way.


----------



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Interesting what some like and don't like. I go the other way it seems. LOVE Mozart's Figaro, Cosi, and Rossini's BOS the most. All three of these are comic operas with the battle of the sexes as a plot element. That really appeals to me (like the plays of Oscar Wilde).

On the other hand I can't listen to Wagner, Verdi, Strauss, etc. I acknowledge the genius of the music, I'm just not into it. Life is short and Der Ring des Nibelungen isn't.


----------



## Guest (May 27, 2019)

Oh well, to each their own. To be honest, Mozart's are about the only operas I actually enjoy - especially the Magic Flute. But in general, I am no big opera fan, so my opinion is tainted.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm watching Bluebeard's Castle now, this is great so far! Dark, .


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It could be the renditions I've heard, but overall I just don't enjoy them. I love almost everything else I've heard by Mozart though; Divertimentos, SQs, Masses, Piano Sonatas and Piano Concertos (esp. the 2nd mvt. of no 21).
> 
> Also, what does it matter what is "considered to be great" if you don't like it?





Bulldog said:


> Because you just might give it additional hearings if the consensus is that it's great?





Captainnumber36 said:


> Do you condone that behavior?


Obviously there's no requirement to explore what you're missing or to like music that others love, but I'm curious. Why start a thread simply to tell people you don't like certain music? Did you have some expectation from the thread? Normally when I don't like something that the vast majority of other classical music listeners like, I assume I could like it by listening more or perhaps understanding why I'm hearing it differently from others.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Maybe I'll watch Bluebeard's Castle tonight!


Yeess! I'm listening to it right now. It's a short opera, and it's on youtube with English subtitles.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Do you condone that behavior?


Being a reasonable person, I recommend it.:tiphat:


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Yeess! I'm listening to it right now. It's a short opera, and it's on youtube with English subtitles.


Well, that was great! Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Well, that was great! Thanks for the recommendation.


Glad you liked it. It blew my mind the first time I heard it. Plus, it's about the polar opposite of a Mozart opera.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Glad you liked it. It blew my mind the first time I heard it. Plus, it's about the polar opposite of a Mozart opera.


Why do you think he collects his wives like that?


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Why do you think he collects his wives like that?


Frankly, I didn't understand the end. Why does he, yes, but also why are they going along with it? What is he doing to them to make them subservient enough to where they'll happily live out their lives in his closet? Up until that point, though, I found it a relatable story. Trouble with intimacy and revealing oneself to one's lover on account of trauma in the past, and the more comfortable one becomes with opening up, the more the other is pushed away. It's a story I know well and could relate to.

By the end though I was wondering just what kinda guy he is, maybe he really is a bad guy. Kind of twisted the whole meaning of the story. I suppose there's a deep psychological meaning behind it all but I still don't quite understand.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Frankly, I didn't understand the end. Why does he, yes, but also why are they going along with it? What is he doing to them to make them subservient enough to where they'll happily live out their lives in his closet? Up until that point, though, I found it a relatable story. Trouble with intimacy and revealing oneself to one's lover on account of trauma in the past, and the more comfortable one becomes with opening up, the more the other is pushed away. It's a story I know well and could relate to.
> 
> By the end though I was wondering just what kinda guy he is, maybe he really is a bad guy. Kind of twisted the whole meaning of the story. I suppose there's a deep psychological meaning behind it all but I still don't quite understand.


You are spot on in your analysis on a very literal level, but I was more taken away by the mood and mystery of it all. He keeps resisting giving the keys, but I think he very much wants her to open all the doors and to slowly learn of her fate. I was curious throughout the film, what was he hiding, what was it all building up to? And in the end we find out; he wants to keep them locked up in his dungeon for lifelong darkness.

The why, we can only guess. I like to think of sadistic ideas concerning his psychology, it's more fun that way, and it was done tastefully if that is indeed the purpose.

We can imagine that he is some kind of womanizer, and that Judith realizes if she doesn't comply, things will be much worse for her (the torture chamber).


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Why do you think he collects his wives like that?


Woodduck gave me a good clarification on Bluebeard's Castle in another thread that I think you will find useful. I posted,


Fritz Kobus said:


> Perhaps I don't understand Bluebeard's Castle, but it seems he reigns over this dark and foreboding edifice and shuts up his wives in a room. Though apparently he has not murdered them, yet blood is found in parts of his castle.


*Woodduck replied*,


Woodduck said:


> It's all symbolism. His rooms are the contents of his subconscious containing the memories of his past, which Judith tries to probe. His wives are his memories of love for other women who came too close for comfort. I think he's tragic rather than evil.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Woodduck gave me a good clarification on Bluebeard's Castle in another thread that I think you will find useful. I posted,
> 
> *Woodduck replied*,


Lot's of ways to interpret it! Of course, I, with my psychology background, make him out to be a hideous monster that needs much therapy.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

You don't have to like it. one day you will, if not, I eat my hat.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.
> 
> The only Opera I've watched and loved is Pelleas et Melissande. I love it's subdued nature musically, and the Libretto is fantastic! I love the unhappy ending.
> 
> His great Mass in C Minor I do love, though!


It took me a long time to appreciate the Mozart / Da Ponte operas. I remember above all being irritated by the way the action, the drama, seemed to stop so that we can have an aria. I enjoy them now, at least, I enjoy Figaro and Don Giovanni. The second half of Cosi fan Tutti is still a big problem for me.

There's nothing I can think of closer to Peleas than Tristan. Tristan is very very good, I'd be very surprised if you didn't get something out of it.

An off the wall suggestion, but I have a strong intuition that you'll like it, is Britten's Curlew River. The music is subdued, to use your word for Peleas, and it's slightly enigmatic.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

In one's journey through classical music, opera sometimes takes a little longer to get used to. Give it time.

The great Sull'aria from Mozart's Figaro had an effect even on the prison population in The Shawshank Redemption. 






One of the great moments in Amadeus is the Mozart Figaro 'Contessa Perdona' scene:


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

There is an elegance to Sull’aria that always sounds very special.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's someone in my family who can't see the whole, she can only see the parts. So for example, when walking round a garden she'll spot how beautiful an individual plant is, but somehow is unable to make a judgement about how they all work together to make a whole. 

I think the same is true of some opera people. They like the arias, and when they listen, what they experience is a sequence of purple passages with some intervening stuff which is ignored and forgotten about. So when they think about Figaro for example, they say to themselves " “O O O O that Sull'aria, it's so elegant, it's so intelligent."


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> There's someone in my family who can't see the whole, she can only see the parts. So for example, when walking round a garden she'll spot how beautiful an individual plant is, but somehow is unable to make a judgement about how they all work together to make a whole.
> 
> I think the same is true of some opera people. They like the arias, and when they listen, what they experience is a sequence of purple passages with some intervening stuff which is ignored and forgotten about. So when they think about Figaro for example, they say to themselves " "O O O O that Sull'aria, it's so elegant, it's so intelligent."


Unable to make a judgement?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.
> 
> The only Opera I've watched and loved is Pelleas et Melissande. I love it's subdued nature musically, and the Libretto is fantastic! I love the unhappy ending.
> 
> His great Mass in C Minor I do love, though!


You don't have to care about anything, just follow your own muse. If you care about not caring, that's another matter.

I don't have any qualms about not liking Mozart's operas because I don't like any operas. I don't mind recitals such as the three tenors, although true opera fans will scoff at that sort of thing anyway.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> You don't have to care about anything, just follow your own muse. If you care about not caring, that's another matter.
> 
> I don't have any qualms about not liking Mozart's operas because I don't like any operas. I don't mind recitals such as the three tenors, although true opera fans will scoff at that sort of thing anyway.


You've checked out Tristan and Isolde I assume?


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it is a delusion that we as classical music lovers are supposed to love all the acknowledged masterpieces. Yes, try, try again later, but realize that if it does not work for you, there's nothing wrong with you (or the piece for that matter).


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

janxharris said:


> Unable to make a judgement?


Exactly that, it's as if she is unable to take in the whole, she can only see the parts. And she has a capacity to be very selective about which parts she sees.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I always think of Mozart's operas (and not just the da Ponte 3) as being the most Mozartian of all his works! I first approached them as pure music (as a child who had never seen an opera) although I followed the action from the libretto. I found the recitative tiresome so it was the German opera, Zauberflote, that came first for me (I was lucky to have the Klemperer recording which excludes the spoken dialogue) but discovering the wonderful way that Mozart writes for several voices at once - he somehow creates space for different characters to each sing different things and yet the whole thing comes together into the most astounding music! - in the da Ponte operas was irresistible. I think your "problem" is with opera, really.



> I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.
> 
> The only Opera I've watched and loved is Pelleas et Melissande. I love it's subdued nature musically, and the Libretto is fantastic! I love the unhappy ending.


Maybe your way into opera is the way you are going: via the Debussy - another opera that is pure heaven - and more modern (and less apparently formulaic) drama. Or is it about the language? But, given your love of Mozart, I do feel that you have a treat in store for you one day (in the music if not in the whole dramatic experience).

BTW the Currentzis recordings of the da Ponte operas may work better for you. They displeased a lot of people who know and love the great recordings of the past but they have an irresistible sweep for me. As with Jacobs, the recitative is given at more length than is the norm but somehow - because it is more "real" and less "ritualised"/"convention-led" - I find that it doesn't impede the flow even though I can't follow the Italian. I also enjoy the improvised piano part that Currentzis uses to accompany the recitative (but some people hated it) and I don't object to the use of lighter voices than the greats of the past.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Exactly that, it's as if she is unable to take in the whole, she can only see the parts. And she has a capacity to be very selective about which parts she sees.


Well it would apply to all music but appears to assume a failing on the one who only loves in part. Presumably, all of us love some works only in part.


----------



## Guest (May 28, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love Mozart, but am not the biggest fan of his Operas. I find them too screechy, repetitive and harsh to be enjoyable to my ears.
> 
> The only Opera I've watched and loved is Pelleas et Melissande. I love it's subdued nature musically, and the Libretto is fantastic! I love the unhappy ending.
> 
> His great Mass in C Minor I do love, though!


 As others have said, I wouldn't worry about it, but before you give up completely with Mozart's operas here's a suggestion ...

Among diehard Mozart opera fans, it may seem like a sacrilegious butchering of some of his most important works, but you might think about excising those bits of the various operas you do not care for and just leave the rest.

In the context of a parallel discussion on how best to get into Wagner's operas currently going on in another thread, it has been suggested by some members that the taking of "highlight" CDs may be the best way to proceed initially. In that thread, you will see that there is a difference of opinion about the merits of doing this kind of thing.

For my part I cannot see anything even remotely dubious about selecting only the bits of operas one likes, and leaving the rest for the buffs to enjoy. In the case of all of Mozart's operas I don't like any of the recitative, and some of the singing gets on my nerves too. For Wagner, I think there are some very good bits indeed but there are some long sections that I find very boring and very much sub-par compared with the best parts.

Returning to Mozart's operas, I started out with a well-regarded version of each opera and went through them all, making notes of the most enjoyable bits. The entire process took me some time to complete, but the effort was worth it. Frankly, it was not that difficult because I recognised the best bits immediately from their frequent playing on radio stations.

To give an example, I took version of _Le Nozze di Figaro_ by Rene Jacobs/Collegium Vocale Gent and finished up with 58 minutes of music. This contains the overture and all of the most well-known arias and duets. For _Don Giovanni_ I took the version was Yannick Nézet-Séguin/Mahler Chamber Orchestra, and finished up with 54 minutes. For _Cosi Fan Tutte_ I took Teodor Currentzis/MusicAeterna and finished uo with 38 minutes.

I covered all of Mozart's operas in this way. Across the entire board, I finished up with a total length of just over 5 hours, which is enough for me.

Before anyone tells me again that this sort of distillation of a great composer's operatic works is indicative that I don't really like opera, I'll take this opportunity to protest in advance at any such suggestion. It suits my purposes and I do enjoy opera. Possibly unlike them, I have thousands of hours of other classical music that I am interested in, apart from opera.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

janxharris said:


> You've checked out Tristan and Isolde I assume?


Not all of it, although I've heard other operas by Wagner in full. Why anyway? Is this the holy grail in music?


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Not all of it, although I've heard other operas by Wagner in full. Why anyway? Is this the holy grail in music?


Just that I don't care much for opera either but I have enjoyed Tristan in part (it's on my (long) to-do list to listen to all of it I should admit).

I consider the prelude an incredible masterpiece and the way Wagner transition from there to the first act is really impressive (ie he appears to bring off what should surely be a let down after those first 12 minutes).


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Life is short; listen to what you like. That may eventually lead you to explore and appreciate other styles, composers, and works, and more after that. Who knows where you may end up?


----------



## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> *
> His great Mass in C Minor I do love, though!*


Ha! I recommended this same Mass to you months ago (when you asked for Mozart recommendations), and you responded it was not your cup of tea then.

So I'll not be surprised if you come back loving Mozart's operas later on. You seem to be still relatively new in the classical music world.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> You don't have to like it. one day you will, if not, I eat my hat.


Better buy a tasty hat then!


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

There are no right or wrong answers when it comes to matters of taste ... but this is _wrong_ :lol: Re-listen, one aria at a time!

And don't forget La Clemenza di Tito.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

jdec said:


> Ha! I recommended this same Mass to you months ago (when you asked for Mozart recommendations), and you responded it was not your cup of tea then.
> 
> So I'll not be surprised if you come back loving Mozart's operas later on. You seem to be still relatively new in the classical music world.


It seems strange to like the mass but not the operas. They have similar beauties.

Mozart's operas are my favorite operas. The composers one immediately thinks of when one hears the word, "opera", Puccini and Verdi, I have a problem with much of their work. I much prefer Mozart and other composers who wrote maybe one or two operas to operatic specialists Puccini and Verdi.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Open Book said:


> ...I much prefer Mozart and other composers who wrote maybe one or two operas to operatic specialists Puccini and Verdi.


Mozart wrote 22 operas, 10 of which are fairly to very popular.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

DaveM said:


> Mozart wrote 22 operas, 10 of which are fairly to very popular.


Yes, I misspoke. I meant I like the operas of composers who weren't known for primarily opera, some of whom wrote only one of two operas.

I prefer the operatic output of Beethoven, Gluck, Weber, Dvorak, Bartok, Richard Strauss, others, to those of Verdi and Puccini. Except for "Rigoletto", which I adore and on whose every note I dwell.

Mozart's mature operas were the greatest operas ever.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

You may come around to them. I find Mozart's operas contain some of the best music ever composed myself. Although I love Debussy I actually didn't enjoy his opera _Pelléas et Mélisande_ the first time I listened to it. I recently listened to it again after reading about the work in a Debussy bio, and the second listening was revelatory. It is now one of my favorite operas.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

janxharris said:


> Just that I don't care much for opera either but I have enjoyed Tristan in part (it's on my (long) to-do list to listen to all of it I should admit).
> 
> I consider the prelude an incredible masterpiece and the way Wagner transition from there to the first act is really impressive (ie he appears to bring off what should surely be a let down after those first 12 minutes).


Since you have an immediate connection with it, makes sense to listen to the whole opera. That's more the case with Wagner compared to others since his operas are through written. As for me, there might be a handful of exceptions to the rule that I don't like opera, but Wagner is certainly not among them.


----------



## Guest (May 29, 2019)

Sid James said:


> Since you have an immediate connection with it, makes sense to listen to the whole opera. That's more the case with Wagner compared to others since his operas are through written. As for me, there might be a handful of exceptions to the rule that I don't like opera, but Wagner is certainly not among them.


If you haven't already done so, you might find the current thread on making a start with Wagner of some interest. I'm by no means as sceptical as you about opera generally, but I'm not hugely enthusaistic either. I'm somewhere in the middle, and have, over the years, grown fond of Wagner. I cannot sit through any of the entire operas, but I'm further on than merely listening to the odd 5 minutes or so of the most well known sections. I have found some so-called "highlight" CDs that provide a happy compromise. These give the best bits and are roughly only about a third of the full works. I've done the same for Mozart. I'm very happy with the results, as it enables me to enjoy a whole genre of classical music without becoming too immersed in the nitty griity of it all, which doesn't interest me at all.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I’ve done that with opera also. It’s a good way to get a taste of a variety of operas. I also enjoyed some operas in full on DVD (including Wagner’s).I also had a chance to attend a few live performances. As a one off experience they where quite good. In contrast to my broadening of interest in instrumental music, opera has at best been a minor interest. Now it’s virtually non existent.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> I've done that with opera also. It's a good way to get a taste of a variety of operas. I also enjoyed some operas in full on DVD (including Wagner's).I also had a chance to attend a few live performances. As a one off experience they where quite good. In contrast to my broadening of interest in instrumental music, opera has at best been a minor interest. Now it's virtually non existent.


Is it the singing style that is problematic? Vibrato?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Could be related to that sort of thing but I’m not at all bothered by the whys and wherefores of my taste in music. I’ve come to accept myself as a listener.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Could be related to that sort of thing but I'm not at all bothered by the whys and wherefores of my taste in music. I've come to accept myself as a listener.


I often wish singers wouldn't use vibrato - or at least only occasionally. The trumpet is also a no-no in this respect for me - I find it incredibly irritating.

We're all different I guess.


----------



## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

May I respectfully suggest that the only way of appreciating opera is by going to the opera. Opera is a living art form, it needs to be lived out in front of you, in real time, to be appreciated. Everything else is a tinned substitute. Like tuna and tinned tuna, or mash potatoes and potato powder. Preferably, pick performances with singers, actors, conductors who have the bit of je-ne-sais-quoi.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Opera live can be an incredible experience but a lot of opera - and certainly Mozart, Handel, Wagner and Britten - works well as pure music.


----------



## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Yes, and I sometimes put a tin of tuna in my salad. But I do appreciate that it’s not IT.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some people don’t like seafood at all, no matter whether its fresh or canned.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DaveM said:


> In one's journey through classical music, opera sometimes takes a little longer to get used to. Give it time.
> 
> The great Sull'aria from Mozart's Figaro had an effect even on the prison population in The Shawshank Redemption.


One of the movies everyone goes wild about but I can't stand is the Shawshank Redemption


----------



## Guest (May 30, 2019)

DavidA said:


> One of the movies everyone goes wild about but I can't stand is the Shawshank Redemption


It just shows how different we all are. I like Shawshank Redemption a great deal. It's one of my favourite films of all time. I think the plot is very good, the acting superb throughout, and I've never felt so cheered as near the end when the prison bosses get their come-uppance with the arrival of the local sheriff. The Mozart aria was one of the most inspired musical insertions that I can think of, with no other piece that would have fitted the bill quite so well.


----------



## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Sid James. But it’s meaningless to say that you like seafood if you’ve only ever tested the tinned variety. You don’t actually know.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Opera live can be an incredible experience but a lot of opera - and certainly Mozart, Handel, Wagner and Britten - works well as pure music.


I agree. I have even introduced myself to some operas by playing them in my car, where I'm not able to follow the libretto. I got to know the wonderful music of "Fille du Regiment" very well before I had much of an idea of what was going on in the story. _All_ music should work as pure music.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> It just shows how different we all are. I like Shawshank Redemption a great deal. It's one of my favourite films of all time. I think the plot is very good, the acting superb throughout, and I've never felt so cheered as near the end when the prison bosses get their come-uppance with the arrival of the local sheriff. The Mozart aria was one of the most inspired musical insertions that I can think of, with no other piece that would have fitted the bill quite so well.


I love the Mozart scene in shawshank - particularly the fact that when they are trying to break into the office where the music is playing and screaming at him to turn it he refuses and they just barge in and knock the LP off the turntable.

that aside - the escape is far fetched since nobody ever looks behind the poster in his cell where he has been hacking away for 17 years. Cells are cleaned out yearly and searched - a sachet of cocaine could be put behind the poster - they would have looked.

Apart from that - not a bad film.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Open Book said:


> I agree. I have even introduced myself to some operas by playing them in my car, where I'm not able to follow the libretto. I got to know the wonderful music of "Fille du Regiment" very well before I had much of an idea what was going on in the story. _All_ music should work as pure music.


Me too - I marvelled at the music first - then read up on the libretto etc later. Have done the same with verdi and puccini. If I dont like the music of an opera - I dont bother with it any further.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Sid James. But it's meaningless to say that you like seafood if you've only ever tested the tinned variety. You don't actually know.


I've tasted both fresh and tinned. As I said earlier, I've attended live performances of opera, so I do know. I also think that your argument lacks logic. Would people who largely dislike a type of music - say pop - be converted by attending pop concerts?

I see this as being a matter of taste. It would be a bit lame if I didn't know my own taste in music, wouldn't it? I'm comfortable with myself as a listener enough to not waste time and effort trying to like something which I simply don't, or at best hardly do.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

stomanek said:


> Me too - I marvelled at the music first - then read up on the libretto etc later. Have done the same with verdi and puccini. If I dont like the music of an opera - I dont bother with it any further.


Yes, some passages of operatic music concentrate more on dramatic effect or atmosphere than on being really good music.


----------



## Guest (May 30, 2019)

Apart from the music, I think that both the plots and text/libretto of operas are important, which is part of the explanation of why many of Mozart's operas are so highly regarded. 

When Schubert tried his luck with opera and other stage works, he did not achieve anything like the same success with the librettos, and in consequence they were all mostly flops, despite containing some high quality music in some of them. I don't think it's widely appreciated just how much importance, time and effort Schubert poured into these endeavours, only to find much disappointment. It's a great pity that he wasn't able to find a better set of librettists, as I'm sure that he could have pulled some major successes here, adding yet further feathers to his cap.

Beethoven's one and only opera, Fidelio, caused him so much grief that he never tried another. The libretto is good, and worth following. I do happen to liked this work, and is one of the very few where I can (if I'm in the right mood) listen through the whole thing. But again, if I don't happen to fancy the entire work, I have programmed into my "foobar" a playlist that selects only the "best bits", according to me.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

stomanek said:


> I love the Mozart scene in shawshank - particularly the fact that when they are trying to break into the office where the music is playing and screaming at him to turn it he refuses and they just barge in and knock the LP off the turntable.
> 
> that aside - the escape is far fetched since nobody ever looks behind the poster in his cell where he has been hacking away for 17 years. Cells are cleaned out yearly and searched - a sachet of cocaine could be put behind the poster - they would have looked.
> 
> Apart from that - not a bad film.


Not bad at all. Actually, it's my favorite movie of all-time.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

stomanek said:


> Me too - I marvelled at the music first - then read up on the libretto etc later. Have done the same with verdi and puccini. If I dont like the music of an opera - I dont bother with it any further.


It was amazing how much of the story of "Fille Du Regiment" I was able to guess just from having watched short excerpts in which showed a tomboyish woman as part of an army regiment. And from the music itself and the emotions that were conveyed. There had to be a marriage involved given the time it was written and it had to involve the option of marrying a soldier vs. someone else and giving up military life.

I, too, won't attempt to watch an opera if the music doesn't lure me in. But I try to give music multiple listens before I decide that it's not for me. That's what the car is good for.


----------



## Guest (May 31, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Not bad at all. Actually, it's my favorite movie of all-time.


I said earlier that the _Shawshank Redemption_ is among my favourite films. On reflection, it's my overall favourite too. It's a pity I know the plot inside out, but even so I still enjoy re-watching it every so often, as little nuances come out that I hadn't spotted before.

The scripting and character portrayal are brilliant. The hypocritical prison governor, the sadistic chief guard, the regretful past of "Red" and his resignation to a life inside, all get top marks in my book.

The way "Andy", who was intellectually superior to most or all around him, befriended some of his fellow inmates, was hated by some, and how he worked the system to his advantage, even though he got beaten up and punished hard a few times, and his clever long term plan both to escape and seek revenge, all added to the superb nature of the film.

The short Mozart opera piece added considerable poignancy to the film, just at the right moment.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> I said earlier that the _Shawshank Redemption_ is among my favourite films. On reflection, it's my overall favourite too. It's a pity I know the plot inside out, but even so I still enjoy re-watching it every so often, as little nuances come out that I hadn't spotted before.
> 
> The scripting and character portrayal are brilliant. The hypocritical prison governor, the sadistic chief guard, the regretful past of "Red" and his resignation to a life inside, all get top marks in my book.
> 
> ...


I enjoy the film too - certainly wouldn't call it my favourite film of all time though - come one - when there are people like Fellini, Kubrik, Lean etc

It is far fetched - as King's work obviously always is - though it seems to me that a crooked prison governor would not trust one of his inmates, albeit a savvy accountant - with knowledge of all the finances behind his dirty deals. But hey - let's pretend he is that dumb.


----------



## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

stomanek said:


> I enjoy the film too - certainly wouldn't call it my favourite film of all time though - come one - when there are people like Fellini, Kubrik, Lean etc
> 
> It is far fetched - as King's work obviously always is - though it seems to me that a crooked prison governor would not trust one of his inmates, albeit a savvy accountant - with knowledge of all the finances behind his dirty deals. But hey - let's pretend he is that dumb.


I must admit that I'm not a great enthusiast about films in general, and have no in-depth expertise on the subject. Those films I really like are few in number, and mainly box office favourites of some 20+ years ago.

In Shawshank, I think that the point you make about a crooked prison governor not likely to trust an inmate about his dodgy deals was dealt with in two ways: (i) there was no-one else under his control clever enough on tax affairs who could possibly have arranged the deals, (ii) the prison governor went to great lengths to make sure that Andy never got out, e.g. he arranged to have shot the "escaping" prisoner who could have given evidence that Andy was not the murderer of his wife.

That film apart, I like most of Scorsese's films, in particular "Casino". I'd rate that as among the best I've seen. Everything about it suited my tastes ideally. The music in it is superb, as there's a wide selection, including a haunting piece from Bach's St Mathew Passion.

I also like all of the "Dirty Harry" films with Clint Eastwood. Others include Godfather Pt 1, Butch Cassidy, Casablanca. Favourite comedy, without any doubt: Life of Brian.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I have my collection of favorite tunes from the operas, but I never took to them the way I hoped I would either. Between the big tentpole arias everyone loves it often sounds like Mozart on autopilot to me, at least compared to his great stuff in the other genres. I tend to come away with a few pleasant, even brilliant, tunes that entertain me for a couple weeks, and then I feel finished with them for several years.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It sounds like listening to opera favourites has damaged your ears. :lol:


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> I must admit that I'm not a great enthusiast about films in general, and have no in-depth expertise on the subject. Those films I really like are few in number, and mainly box office favourites of some 20+ years ago.
> 
> In Shawshank, I think that the point you make about a crooked prison governor not likely to trust an inmate about his dodgy deals was dealt with in two ways: (i) there was no-one else under his control clever enough on tax affairs who could possibly have arranged the deals, (ii) the prison governor went to great lengths to make sure that Andy never got out, e.g. he arranged to have shot the "escaping" prisoner who could have given evidence that Andy was not the murderer of his wife.
> 
> ...


Well - still seems pretty dumb to me as he could still pass information on to other prisoners who are going to be released - and thus blackmail him for release since it would be possible to get information to the IRS by that route.

There's also the question of how Andy managed to conceal the hole he was hacking into the wall over 17 years. Im afraid the poster over the hole is laughable. He even manages to replace the poster somehow after he has escaped. Prison cells are spot checked and I can assure you - everything is ripped off the wall.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Well - still seems pretty dumb to me as he could still pass information on to other prisoners who are going to be released - and thus blackmail him for release since it would be possible to get information to the IRS by that route.
> 
> There's also the question of how Andy managed to conceal the hole he was hacking into the wall over 17 years. Im afraid the poster over the hole is laughable. He even manages to replace the poster somehow after he has escaped. Prison cells are spot checked and I can assure you - everything is ripped off the wall.


It's a fictional movie, and movies are magic. If you want reality, go outside to the world or watch a documentary.


----------



## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

stomanek said:


> Well - still seems pretty dumb to me as he could still pass information on to other prisoners who are going to be released - and thus blackmail him for release since it would be possible to get information to the IRS by that route.
> 
> There's also the question of how Andy managed to conceal the hole he was hacking into the wall over 17 years. Im afraid the poster over the hole is laughable. He even manages to replace the poster somehow after he has escaped. Prison cells are spot checked and I can assure you - everything is ripped off the wall.


Easy on all issues.

On the matter of possible blackmail, the Prison Governor probably fixed the Parole Board to allow exits only for prisoners who had become blithering idiots after serving very long sentences, Such people wouldn't have the "nous" to spill the beans to the Fuzz, or if any tried to do so they would have been bumped off off by goons working for the Governor on the outside.

On the matter of the hole in the wall, that's even simpler. If you recall, prisoners used "Red" to acquire all sorts of contraband from outside. That's how "Andy" acquired his small chisel device to do the stone removal. He could easily have asked for some slow-acting joint filler compound, and retained some of the stones that he had chipped out, just enough to put back a temporary stone facade to re-cover the hole whenever an inspection was likely. The guards in that prison aren't that bright.

As for putting back the poster after his final escape, that's easy too. He could have used double-side sticky tape to re-secure it.

He was obviously very a very smart and resourceful guy. It's how he survived the journey down the long sewers, and the subsequent dogs chasing him, that had me slightly baffled, but he probably had breathing gear, and dog-repellant powder.

Anything else? just ask.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> Easy on all issues.
> 
> On the matter of possible blackmail, the Prison Governor probably fixed the Parole Board to allow exits only for prisoners who had become blithering idiots after serving very long sentences, Such people wouldn't have the "nous" to spill the beans to the Fuzz, or if any tried to do so they would have been bumped off off by goons working for the Governor on the outside.
> 
> ...


You really are prepared to speculate and invent implausible possibilities to shore up your belief in this film.

You speculate that the governor "probably" fixed the parole board etc. Criminals receive sentences and many lesser criminals with short terms could not be prevented from being released. Andy could quite easily have passed incriminating information to any one of them to be released should he give the signal - or if anything happens to him.

As for the wall - the kind of damage he was doing to the wall could not so easily be filled up with putty or whatever without it being obvious that serious work was going on. As i say - that poster would have come off at some point and it would have been endgame for poor Andy. We dont see Andy replacing the poster - something I find odd. I think the filmmakers probably tried it a few times and he made such a mess of it they decided to leave it out. The audience could reasonably expect these details to be revealed in the escape scene. Add to this the improbability that prisoners keep their own cell for 20 years - they tend to me moved around, and share cells - the whole thing is so implausible - but remember this is Stephen King not John Steinbeck.

I should also say it is incredibly fortunate for Andy that the wall did not face fresh air - as prisons tend to be designed in such a way that hole in the wall count of monte cristo type attempts cannot succeed. But I can let that go.

Remember the tax free spousal gift that Andy advises to the prison guard? Totally false. That provision in the tax code doesn't exist. In fact, there has never been a federal inheritance tax, nor has there ever been a limit on what one spouse can give to another

The killing of that boy was also implausible. I find highly unlikely that a prison guard would commit murder at the behest of the governor unless he was exceptionally stupid.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Ok maybe its time to take the Shawshank talk to another thread please, maybe in the movie section of the forum.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

tdc said:


> Ok maybe its time to take the Shawshank talk to another thread please, maybe in the movie section of the forum.


I doubt if either one of us will care enough about it to do that.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

stomanek said:


> In fact, there has never been a federal inheritance tax,


Well, there is a federal estate tax which is often thought of and talked about as an inheritance tax (however semantically inaccurate that might be) so it's not beyond belief that that is the term that would be used with an uneducated prison population.


----------



## Guest (Jun 2, 2019)

DaveM said:


> Well, there is a federal estate tax which is often thought of and talked about as an inheritance tax (however semantically inaccurate that might be) so it's not beyond belief that that is the term that would be used with an uneducated prison population.


Ok maybe its time to take the Shawshank talk to another thread please, maybe in the movie section of the forum. :lol:


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Partita said:


> Ok maybe its time to take the Shawshank talk to another thread please, maybe in the movie section of the forum. :lol:


Couldnt find the movie section


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

And there was I trying to find out more about Mozart's opera, Shawshank. I hoped there would be a recording on Spotify.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I've been listening stupefied to Mozart's _Idomeneo_ all evening and there's never a dull moment. He's composing on all 12 cylinders and this was a tremendous success for him at the age of 25... It's intense, dramatic, tragic, brilliant, virtuosic... dazzling... glorious-






I think this is a great opera for young and up-and-coming singers, maybe for some young listeners too, and this intense and brilliant production is full of them... This is the opera that Brahms said had "true dissonance" that Beethoven didn't have. I'm ducking for cover after saying that. I've been listening for that and it's not what I think most listeners expect, but is far more subtle. Mozart underscores the dramatic intensity and emotional dissonance of the libretto in about 1001 different ways without strident harmonic dissonances. It's dazzling and there's a well-deserved standing ovation at the end.


----------

