# Free improvisation



## danae

I know that free improvisation and improvisation in general doesn't exactly constitute composition, but it's very close to it. It's a kind of instant composition.

So here's a sample of a free improvisation I'm playing, part of the song "Alone together" by Themos Skandamis.

I'd love to hear instructive comments.


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## SenorTearduct

Are you on piano or are you on guitar? I would assume piano in which I love it, a very good job on keeping atonal aspects but also matching the singers, a seemless preformance and almost rapsodhy like because it is so good.

I enjoyed very much how in sync you band is with each other on what you need to do...


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## SenorTearduct

If you were the singer, I loved how well again you could match the pianist.. and I loved the experimental almost Indian half tones.


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## danae

Thanks for your comments. I'm on the piano (sorry, I forgot to specify before).


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## SenorTearduct

Ya that is what I assumed, the improvision is quite good I enjoyed it as you are very very talented...


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## danae

I listened to the "Finite Terra". You'll find my comments on the related thread.


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## World Violist

I had to do some free improv over the summer. Nothing really much, although there was a scenario (to start out we had to try to express a given scenario--we were preparing to improvise short movie soundtracks) my group excelled in. We had to simulate a storm brewing, and we had everything for it and used everything to pretty great effect: a grand piano, viola, flute, and tuba. Great fun.


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## danae

Yeah, it's fun isn't it? It's also quite difficult. This August I participated in a free improv workshop along with 4 other performers (saxophone, clarinet, vibraphone and durms). We worked a lot together and finally something came out of it. It's really hard to play and listen to the others at the same time, to synchronize the feelings etc, in other words to communicate.

What did you think of my short sample?


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## Scott Good

danae said:


> What did you think of my short sample?


Groovy! Nice piano especially.

I've been performing and composing free improv stuff for about 15 years. I love it.

In fact, I would be so bold as to say it is the new folk music. I am drawn to this idea because free improvised music is very inclusive - it transcends all cultural and skill boundaries. It does take some practice, but is open to anyone who can make sounds.

I wanted to share a certain performance with you - I just got this recording from a concert almost 2 years ago - I think it turned out quite well!

Background - this song, Called "2 ways on a 1 way", and is the 7th movement of a 10 part show I co-composed with a friend. The show is a tribute to Kurt Vonnegut, and each song is a reflection of one of his books. The show transverses many stylistic boundaries - classical, rock, swing, afro-cuban,country, soundtrack...and free improv.

The "score" for this movement (inspired from Sirens of Titan) was a set of instructions discussed at the intermission of the concert (0 rehearsal). It went something like this:

For the 1st 2/3rds of this piece (about 4min), there is a tape part playing a steadily irregular backdrop - quiet pulsing sounds - very sci-fi. 3 groups of 2 are formed (predetermined), and each group of two have to try and communicate with each other, but with sounds that are very unusual, as if trying to create a new language. The rest of the musicians (about 18 in total), can join in at any time, trying to cut in with the new languages that have formed.

When the tape part ends, the last third of the piece starts. It is a phrase repeated - spoken - in several different languages (this was all written out). Musicians are asked to with each repetition, distorting even more the phrase, emphasizing it's "uniqueness" through grossly exaggerating musical aspects of the language.

And, this is what happened.

View attachment 680


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## danae

Scott I sent you a PM.


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## Mirror Image

First of all, the audio quality is horrendous. Second of all, I don't hear anything remotely melodic coming from your improvisation. Lastly, get rid of the singer!

Sorry to be so harsh, but I don't hear anything of musical substance here. I've been an improviser for around 18 years, so I don't think I was out-of-line in any of my comments.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> First of all, the audio quality is horrendous. Second of all, I don't hear anything remotely melodic coming from your improvisation. Lastly, get rid of the singer!
> 
> Sorry to be so harsh, but I don't hear anything of musical substance here. I've been an improviser for around 18 years, so I don't think I was out-of-line in any of my comments.


Yeah, the sound quality is indeed horrendous. It's an amateur video!

As for the improv, there was no melody intended. It's not jazz, it's not folk. It's free improv, but on a preexisting base / ground, which is the song. Of course I could have done a lot better, but melody would still be out of the question for this specific improv.

As for the singer, you're right. He's the songwriter and singing is not one of his strong points.


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## danae

Oh and by the way, I have another thread with composed pieces in the same sub-forum. Tell me what you think.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> Yeah, the sound quality is indeed horrendous. It's an amateur video!
> 
> As for the improv, there was no melody intended. It's not jazz, it's not folk. It's free improv, but on a preexisting base / ground, which is the song. Of course I could have done a lot better, but melody would still be out of the question for this specific improv.
> 
> As for the singer, you're right. He's the songwriter and singing is not one of his strong points.


That's my main problem with free improvisation. There's no melody or really any kind of melodic content. It's just all "up in the air" so to speak. I like improvising within a composition and I also like improvising off the main melody, which gives me ideas and makes the piece of music much more cohesive.

In a jazz context, which most of the music I play is in, I like to keep things lyrical while concentrating on more adventurous harmonic ideas. I tend to favor more of an Impressionistic sound. I like chords that don't resolve themselves, because in my opinion that's the melody's job not the harmony's. I view harmony as a way of accompanying the melody and the rhythm is, of course, what drives it all.

If I can't be melodic, tuneful, and emotional, then I don't play, but that's just my style.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> That's my main problem with free improvisation. There's no melody or really any kind of melodic content. It's just all "up in the air" so to speak. I like improvising within a composition and I also like improvising off the main melody, which gives me ideas and makes the piece of music much more cohesive.
> 
> In a jazz context, which most of the music I play is in, I like to keep things lyrical while concentrating on more adventurous harmonic ideas. I tend to favor more of an Impressionistic sound. I like chords that don't resolve themselves, because in my opinion that's the melody's job not the harmony's. I view harmony as a way of accompanying the melody and the rhythm is, of course, what drives it all.


Well it's a matter of personal taste then. You should judge my improv based on my intentions. So if you don't like free improvisation in general because of the lack of melody, then it's quite certain you couldn't possibly like this one. 
As for melody and harmony, I love both. And in the world of melodic improvisation I have two favourites: Esbjorn Svenson and Brad Meldau.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> Well it's a matter of personal taste then. You should judge my improv based on my intentions. So if you don't like free improvisation in general because of the lack of melody, then it's quite certain you couldn't possibly like this one.
> As for melody and harmony, I love both. And in the world of melodic improvisation I have two favourites: Esbjorn Svenson and Brad Meldau.


I judge based on what I see to be music not what musician's intentions were and from what you were playing I'm afraid doesn't qualify as music to me. Sorry, but I can play three chords and build an entire improvisation around those chords and it'll sound much more cohesive than what you were doing. What you were playing sounded too random. Improvisation isn't a means onto itself. It's about keeping things flowing and all the best improvisers will tell you that it's more important to tell a story, then to tell 20 different ones.


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## danae

Again, you're not talking about free improvisation. You're talking about something else. Oh, and let's not get inot the question of what is and what's not music...


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> Again, you're not talking about free improvisation. You're talking about something else. Oh, and let's not get inot the question of what is and what's not music...


 Whatever you say. I gave you my opinion. Take it or leave it. I don't really care.


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## danae

There you go again. You can't stay civil for long, can you? 
I'm just asking a very simple thing: are you dismissing free improvisation in general or this specific one?


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## danae

Oh, I almost forgot: did you listen to the pieces from my other thread?


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## SenorTearduct

where is your other thread


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## danae

In the sub-forum "Today's composers"


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> There you go again. You can't stay civil for long, can you?
> I'm just asking a very simple thing: are you dismissing free improvisation in general or this specific one?


You asked me to give you my opinion and I gave it to you. What more do you want me to say?


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> You asked me to give you my opinion and I gave it to you. What more do you want me to say?


Well, you could answer this specific question if you wanted to. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> Well, you could answer this specific question if you wanted to. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.


What you were playing WASN'T music in my opinion. It sounded like uninformed noise. Is that more of the answer you're looking for?


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> What you were playing WASN'T music in my opinion. It sounded like uninformed noise. Is that more of the answer you're looking for?


Of course not. But it's clear that there can be no constructive criticism, if you don't even think it's music.

I just want an answer to this *specific* question: do you feel this way about free improv in general or just this one? I know I'm repeating myself but you never answered the question.

Also, do you have any comments on my other stuff?


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> Of course not. But it's clear that there can be no constructive criticism, if you don't even think it's music.
> 
> I just want an answer to this *specific* question: do you feel this way about free improv in general or just this one? I know I'm repeating myself but you never answered the question.
> 
> Also, do you have any comments on my other stuff?


My opinion of free improvisation is it's musical nonsense. Nothing is truly "free" not even music. If you don't have a clear direction like a melody, a group of chords, or something to build upon then what you're playing is just unmusical drivel. When I improvise it's always within a structure. Even Debussy had structure to his music. It's within structure that you will be able to find what it is you want to say musically. Sometimes just playing a melody by itself will help you build on your improvisations. But improvisation is not a collective experience, it is a sole experience. To put it another way, if you and I sat down and I played what I wanted to and you played what you wanted to, we're not really making music together, we're making noise, because both of us aren't listening to each other. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

As for the other pieces you submitted, I haven't listened to them yet. I'm kind of busy listening to something else at the moment. Maybe some other time.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> As for the other pieces you submitted, I haven't listened to them yet. I'm kind of busy listening to something else at the moment. Maybe some other time.


You haven't? Well, that didn't stop you from commenting on the thread though. 
And by the way, these were what I wanted you to hear and not the free improvisation. The improv isn't a piece.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> You haven't? Well, that didn't stop you from commenting on the thread though.
> And by the way, these were what I wanted you to hear and not the free improvisation. The improv isn't a piece.


Well, I'll listen to them at my convenience. Not when you think I should listen to them.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> To put it another way, if you and I sat down and I played what I wanted to and you played what you wanted to, we're not really making music together, we're making noise, because both of us aren't listening to each other. Do you understand what I'm saying here?


Sorry, this is not what free improvisation is. Free improv requires quite a lot of listening from everyone. In fact that's mostly the idea: communication with each other.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> Sorry, this is not what free improvisation is.


According to what you're playing it is.


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## danae

What I'm playing is just one of the aspects of free improv. Here are other examples that better illustrate what free improv is.


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## danae

Here's another one:


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> What I'm playing is just one of the aspects of free improv. Here are other examples that better illustrate what free improv is.


LOL...you don't have to tell me what free improvisation is, danae. I already know all about it. I'm a jazz guitarist, so I'm quite familiar with what it is. I just think it's nonsense.

You're not going to change my mind about it, so there's really nothing you can say or do that will change my opinion of it. When I play with musicians, I have a program of ideas I've been working on that I share with them. If the ideas are worth keeping then we build a composition from it, then I start working on building that idea from the ground up. I don't go into any session without a clear idea of what I want to do musically. It's in my practice time that I work on ideas for a composition.

I didn't even bother looking at those clips, because I don't have time to listen to junk.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> LOL...you don't have to tell me what free improvisation is, danae. I already know all about it. I'm a jazz guitarist, so I'm quite familiar with what it is. I just think it's nonsense.
> 
> You're not going to change my mind about it, so there's really nothing you can say or do that will change my opinion of it. When I play with musicians, I have a program of ideas I've been working on that I share with them. If the ideas are worth keeping then we build a composition from it, then I start working on building that idea from the ground up. I don't go into any session without a clear idea of what I want to do musically. It's in my practice time that I work on ideas for a composition.
> 
> I didn't even bother looking at those clips, because I don't have time to listen to junk.


OK, so your answer to the question is: "I feel this way about free improvisation in general and not about your improvisation" correct?

Oh, and I'm so sorry to have indicated to you, the conoisseur, what free improv is or might be.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> OK, so your answer to the question is: "I feel this way about free improvisation in general and not about your improvisation" correct?
> 
> Oh, and I'm so sorry to have indicated to you, the conoisseur, what free improv is or might be.


I don't like any free improvisation, including yours. It has no artistic merit. I'm quite knowledgable about free improvisation, so yeah you're just preaching to the choir. I'm awesome get used to it.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> I'm awesome get used to it.


Finally, an answer.

You're awesome, I get it. You should come live in Greece. Here, you are what you say you are. No need to prove it


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> You should come live in Greece.


Why should I? What would be a good reason for me to live there?


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## danae

The reason is the following two sentences you didn't quote. You 've made your point and I have my answer. End of discussion. It's half past 4 in the morning and I gotta go to bed. Over and out.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> The reason is the following two sentences you didn't quote. You 've made your point and I have my answer. End of discussion. It's half past 4 in the morning and I gotta go to bed. Over and out.


Whatever you say.


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## Gangsta Tweety Bird

well i liked it and cant see how anyone could call it non-music


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## chillowack

This conversation between danae and MI is most entertaining!

I hope it continues....


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## SenorTearduct

Oh Chillowack, you must see all has it's end as has its beginning as is its end.


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## chillowack

SenorTearduct said:


> Oh Chillowack, you must see all has it's end as has its beginning as is its end.


Run that by me again?


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## SenorTearduct

I was making an allusion to Hamlet..

about how everything has an end, and referring to this conversation, in that if it did not end, there would be maybe some extreme verbal throat slashing...


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## Mirror Image

chillowack said:


> This conversation between danae and MI is most entertaining!
> 
> I hope it continues....


It won't. I made my point and she made hers. Case closed.


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## SenorTearduct

MI could you look at my newest thread?


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## Mirror Image

SenorTearduct said:


> MI could you look at my newest thread?


No offense to you, but why do people want my opinion of a piece of music? Okay, my problem with your music is it's immature. Age is just a number in classical, Rued Langgaard composed his first symphony when he was 16 yrs. old. My other problem is you're not writing for an orchestra, which what I love more than chamber, solo instrumental works, opera...I'm a fan of the orchestra. I want to hear what you can do with a large orchestra. When you compose something for a large orchestra, let me know, then I'll give you my critique, but until then, let somebody who enjoys chamber works evaluate your music.


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## SenorTearduct

Ok, then I'll let you know


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## Mirror Image

SenorTearduct said:


> Ok, then I'll let you know


Yes, for me, the true talent in a composer is what they can do with a large orchestra. String quartets, octets, trios, etc. are nice, but I want to hear what you can do with an orchestra and better yet how you orchestrate it.


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## Gangsta Tweety Bird

well thats just your opinion


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## Mirror Image

Gangsta Tweety-Bird said:


> well thats just your opinion


Do you have an opinion to offer? All you seem to do is show up where I do and make a comment about something I have already commented on.


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## Gangsta Tweety Bird

its hard not to


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## chillowack

Mirror Image said:


> No offense to you, but why do people want my opinion of a piece of music?


This is _exactly_ what I've been wondering!

Can we all agree to stop asking MI for critiques? I think it would make the composing forum a much more pleasant place for everyone.


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