# The Symphonies of Ludwig Van Beethoven



## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

I want to start a discourse today on the symphonic output of the Master. During the course of the next few days, I will cover a brief summary of his symphonies and definitive performances.
The symphonies of Ludwig Van Beethoven are representative of the European spirit in the same way as are the historical plays of Shakespeare. The magnitude is the same or maybe more. H. Stuckenschmidt, a Beethoven historian, says that in their own special language, these symphonies speak of man, of his relationship to nature, to his own pulse and heartbeat, to heroism and love, to the firmament and above all to the Creator. 
With Beethoven, music moved out of the confines of the Classical and entered the domain of the subjective. This Master genius epitomised the trends of a whole century in his creative work with which he morally and spiritually conquered the world. This, he did in a highly individualistic manner with bold innovations in tonal effects and orchestration which seemed to cut his music completely off from everything traditional.
Another Beethoven historian, Anton Schindler, whose Paris diaries' translation I have read,
describes the Beethoven cult of the nineteenth century very well and says that it is centred around his symphonies. For all the objectivity of the technical modern age, Beethoven's orchestral works have not been dethroned.
We will talk about Beethoven's First Symphony in C Major tomorrow.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2009)

Looking forward to it tahnak, btw I like your Cat what do you feed it on??


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Hello Andante*

Greetings to you Andante.
The cat that you see is not one that I have raised as a pet. Despite my wish to hold such a cat and feed it every day, alas! not to be. The cat is raised by Buddhist monks at a monastery that I visited in Kanchanaburi, Thailand ( a few hundred miles away from Bangkok). Believe me, the cat is brought up by them and is so human friendly and non violent. After all, taming and bringing up such cats is a piece of cake for these monks. I took the picture with the cat's head in my lap and it coolly feigned to sleep. Very lovable.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*My site*

If you ever have time on your hand and would like to visit my site, Andante, where I invite all those interested in good music, films and books to share their views with me; you are most welcome to www.tahseennakavi.blogspot.com.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Beethoven's First Symphony*

Beethoven wrote his first symphony at the age of 29. The symphony is in C Major. Opus 21. He ushered the musical nineteenth century with this symphony. He completed the symphony in 1799. It was first performed in public on 2nd April 1800.
The orchestration is similar to that of Mozart's late symphonies except for doubling of the woodwinds which subsequently became the rule. The slow introduction was already familiar from Haydn and the French Overture style. Beethoven later followed this custom in his second, fourth and seventh symphonies. To Beethoven's contemporaries, the twelve introductory bars came as something of a shock for the young composer had begun with a chord of the seventh. A similar quasi dissonant opening was already to be found in Haydn's C Major String Quartet and even in Johann Sebastian Bach's Cantata, "Widerstehe Doch Der Sunde." Beethoven used the same opening style in his Prometheus Overture which was written in 1801.
The theme of the first movement has often been compared to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony ( No. 41, also in C Major). There is influence from the music of the French Revolution in Eroica, Fifth, Seventh Symphonies and Fidelio.
The Andante is admirable. The Minuet is praised by Berlioz as the "first-born of the family of those most delightful scherzi whose form was invented by Beethoven." The symphony concludes with a cheerful, majestic finale. The aura and the sound is absolutely royal.
It is not surprising then that the two most definitive performances of this symphony have been given by the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra. The first definitive performance is lead by Sir Charles Groves and the second by Sir Thomas Beecham. Other noteworthy performances are by Otto Klemperer with the Philharmonia Orchestra of London and Herbert Von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*Humble suggestion for alternate idea...*



tahnak said:


> ...Herbert Von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker.


I take it you're referring to the '62-'63 set(?)


Andante said:


> Looking forward to it tahnak...


I, too, would look forward to some organized Beethoven discussion- but before we continue, let me propose an alternate idea.

How would you feel about using our (relatively) new "Social Group" function to start a group for Beethoven discussion? Then (if Administration/Moderation is willing), we could make the Social Group a sub-forum in "Composer Guestbooks." Thereafter, we could maintain a thread for each work (or group of works). That way, any newcomer who has something to add would not have to backtrack to an earlier portion of a single thread after most others have moved on. Between you and me, I can think of no other composer who deserves the honor of 'first composer-specific social group' more. Tenative title for Social Group- *Beethoven- Master of Masters*. I'll form the group, if you'd like- not because I consider myself any kind of authority, but because I'd look forward to participating as an enthusiastic fan.

I don't mean to step on anyones toes, here. If you'd prefer to continue conversing using this thread instead, feel free to disregard my suggestion. Just an idea...


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> I take it you're referring to the '62-'63 set(?)I, too, would look forward to some organized Beethoven discussion- but before we continue, let me propose an alternate idea.
> 
> How would you feel about using our (relatively) new "Social Group" function to start a group for Beethoven discussion? ..


Hi Chi town,
Your quote showed Rondo how on earth did that happen, I am curious about groups, what are the differences between an open discussion and a Group discussion, is it closed to those not in the group?? And how does it show in "forums" ??


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

Andante said:


> Hi Chi town,
> Your quote showed Rondo how on earth did that happen,


I was wondering the same thing.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

1) Not too late to edit! I pulled the "tahnak" quote over, and typed the other one, with the misattribution. 

2) Whether or not a Social Group shows in forums (as opposed, I guess, to visitor messages) is probably at the discretion of Administration/Moderation. Perhaps someone on the Administration team can give us further clarification on this one.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Hi Tahnak, This is a good idea but you need to beef it up a bit (not so popular with the Buddhist monks though) with more detailed and dare I say accurate descriptions of B's music. I'm afraid there are several 'inaccuracies' in your post about the 1st symphony. The term French Overture is a bit stretched in describing the from of anything that has a slow introduction. Although related to the idea this movement doesn't really qualify. The rythmic dotted and double dotted chararcteristic of the French overture is a 'sine qua non' and a regal air is nearly always expected.

The orchestral forces are _exactly_ the same as Mozart 35, so no ground breaking stuff there.

I don't know what you mean by 'the music of the French Revolution' but capturing the spirit of the revolutionary age and being influenced by it's music are two different things. Beethoven was hedging his bets from an employment point of view by dedicating works to Napoleon and then retracting them when he was recognised as a tyrrant. Not that he never 'used' topical or traditional tunes in his works, it's just not as apparent as you suggest and definitiely not in the works which you mention except for a short burst in 'Fideleo' which although capturing the spirit of the age, do not make use or show influences of the music connected with the French revolution. 'Quoting' is not the same as 'being influenced by'.

You say the Andante is Admirable. While true it is hardly an in depth discussion. One could draw thematic and orchestrational links between this and the 'Andante Cantaible' in Mozart 40. A mention of the cross rythm sforzandi and independent cello and bass parts are also note-worthy.

something about the musette style of wind writing in the Trio and again the use of off-beat sforzandi before the Da Capo make for an exciting return to the string crescendo.

The fourth Mvt. also starts with an Adagio (something peculiar to Beethoven) but no mention of French overture even with the dots. No this a searching passage rather like an embyonic version of the intro to the last mvt. of the 9th. Looking for the way by trial and error first 3 notes then 4 etc. Very indicative of how Beehoven worked. (may be we're seeing him at work 'in the lab' so to speak.)
I could hardly agree that it is majestic. It's a spritely, playful, folk song like rummy! The first theme sounding almost like a nursery rhyme. The thematic material in the bassoons, celli and basses at the dominant preparation which then picked up in the high woodwind too is also a characteristic off-beat sforzando which gives Beethovens music the drive sometimes lacking in his contemoraries.

I like the early Bernstein recordings with the New York Phil. but that's a personal choice. The drive and youthful energy which Bernstein manages to inspire is collosal! I can never turn these off in the middle. Some thing I can do with Karajan ( what a shameful admission!)

FC


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Now this is going to be interesting when we make it to the 3rd Symphony. Not that it isn't already interesting -- I just don't have the themes from the 1st and 2nd memorized. Wish I could learn to subscribe to a thread. As it is I am emailing myself the link to my home address from work so I can find it again.

I'm all for in depth discussion of ANY Beethoven work -- well, maybe not _Wellington's Victory_


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I always liked Walter/Columbia for the early Beethoven symphonies in particular. It's just my first impression bias. 

Much like the first symphony of Shostakovich or Sibelius, Beethoven's first symphony often get overshadowed by the subsequent symphonies. Unfortunately, the No. 1's don't have the legacy shared by the 5's and 9's.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Weston said:


> Wish I could learn to subscribe to a thread.


http://www.talkclassical.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_user_profile#faq_vb3_subscriptions


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Karajan*

Chi - Yes I am referring to the 1963 set and not the 1977.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Beefing it a bit*

Hello Post Minimalist -
Thanks for your valuable interaction. The French Revolution mis-association has been noted. The French Overture Style comments have also been noted.
Thanks for expanding the synopsis on all the movements.
When we enter the D Major Second, I will keep in mind your suggestions and proceed accordingly.
Cheers!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Glad to be of service! I might drop in some detailed analysis of certain features of these works as this thread progresses.
FC


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Beethoven 1!
Experimental, sprightly, well crafted, concise, prophetic but not a masterpiece..


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Hi Dave. Sorry to get sticky on this, but can you point out the experimantal aspects of B's No1.
F


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

post-minimalist said:


> Hi Dave. Sorry to get sticky on this, but can you point out the experimantal aspects of B's No1.
> F


Even I can point out one: he doesn't start on the tonic. Practically every other symphony before that one started on the tonic.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Beethoven's Second Symphony*

The D Major Symphony was completed in the summer of 1802. It was written during his stay at Heiligenstadt. The first public performance was given at Theater An Der Wien on Fifth April 1803. At its first performance, it was described as being full of new, original ideas and very powerful. It was near the time that he began to realise that he was becoming deaf. It is one of the last works of Beethoven's 'early period.'
The symphony is scored for strings, two flutes, two oboes, two clarinets in A major, two bassoons, two french horns in D and E, two trumpets in D Major and timpani. The composer also made a transcription for piano trio in 1805 and maintained the same opus number 36.
The symphony consists of four movements:
Adagio Molto - Allegro Con Brio
Larghetto
Scherzo - Allegro
Allegro Molto
Adagio Molto begins in D Major and briefly modulates to A Major. The exposition takes the A Major theme with a transition to B Flat major. The development uses this material with a codetta going through several modulations. The A major theme returns in the recapitulation and takes us to the coda and conclusion of the movement.
Larghetto is in A Major and is one of Beethoven's beautiful symphonic slow movements. There are clear indications of the influence of folk and pastoral music.
After the symphony's premiere, it was observed that Beethoven had replaced the traditional minuet with the Scherzo. Scherzo - Allegro evolves around a melodious oboe and bassoon quartet with typical sounding Austrian side-slapping dance.
Allegro Molto is comprised of very rapid string passages. It is of great depth with harmonic and musical complexity. A critic in Wien described this movement as " a dragon ran through by a spear, not wanting to die; drained of blood and wagging its tail."
Noteworthy performances of this symphony are by Herbert Von Karajan and the Berliner Philharmoniker (1963), Otto Klemperer and the Philharmonia Orchestra ( 1957) and Sir Thomas Beecham with the London Philharmonic (1958).


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

World Violist said:


> Even I can point out one: he doesn't start on the tonic. Practically every other symphony before that one started on the tonic.


That could be construed as experimental. It certainly isn't the first symphony to start lie this though.

I wasn't saying that it isn't experimental. I was asking for examles to back up that description.

More experimental is the actual nature of the thematic material from which the first movement is constructed. In general Beethoven works with smaller thematic units than was popular at the time and the 3 note figure which forms the first unit of the pricipal theme in the 1st subject is one such unit. A compaction of musical expression and the exhaustion of it as a immutable unit is something that we see for the first time in a symphonic 1st mvt. here. The ultimate conclusion of this method was to come in the 5th Symphony. There are other features that could be considered experimental here but I feel the word does not 'characterize' the work as a whole where as the other adjectives Dave uses certainly do, with the exception of maybe 'prophetic' by That one is open to freer interpretation anyway.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

post-minimalist said:


> Hi Dave. Sorry to get sticky on this, but can you point out the experimantal aspects of B's No1.
> F


Well, how about the first use of a Scherzo type movement, (even though he didn't call it a scherzo). And starting the finale with a short slow intro. (Ok this may have been done before but it's typical of LVB to do such things in his compositions)..


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Yes. That's exactly the stuff! The Scherzo thing is a tempo issue and also there's a feeling of one in a bar rather than 3. These make the 3rd mvts in B's symphonies very hard to play well sepecially for 'heavy' insrtruments like Bassoons and Basses.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

tahnak said:


> The D Major Symphony was completed in the summer of 1802. It was written during his stay at Heiligenstadt. The first public performance was given at Theater An Der Wien on Fifth April 1803. At its first performance, it was described as being full of new, original ideas and very powerful. It was near the time that he began to realise that he was becoming deaf. It is one of the last works of Beethoven's 'early period.'
> The symphony is scored for strings, two flutes, two oboes, two clarinets in A major, two bassoons, two french horns in D and E, two trumpets in D Major and timpani. The composer also made a transcription for piano trio in 1805 and maintained the same opus number 36.
> The symphony consists of four movements:
> Adagio Molto - Allegro Con Brio
> ...


It is indeed a very powerful and substantial work. Much more so than Sym. 1. Like you say it has a glorious slow movement. (How so many of B's slow movements were beautiful!!)
Again very forward thinking (especially a very similar quotation is found in the 1st movements Intro. to the main outburst in the 9th Sym. 1st movement - I'm not sure whether this was B's intentions or not or just co-incidence).


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Eroica*

Symphony No. 3 in E Flat Major. Op.55. Ludwig Van Beethoven. (1803/1804).
It was influenced by Napoleon's achievements. Among history's many examples, Eroica stands high. It interrupted the evolution of the symphonic development and appeared without a precedent or a prototype. It marked the end of classicism and turned the pages of Romanticism. Yes, it is this symphony that is the bridge to both the periods. It was moulded in a fiery new style. Its impact and influence would be heard for generations to come. It symbolises Napoleon, heroism, death, apotheosis and revolution. At first, Beethoven thought extremely highly of Napoleon and compared him to the greatest Roman Consuls. When Napoleon declared himself emperor, Beethoven decided that Napoleon was nothing but an ordinary mortal and tore the dedication page to the symphony; later dedicating it to Prince Lobkowitz. The public that was used to the opening of Haydn and Mozart symphonies was in for a brute shock when the first two opening chords shattered the expectations of the bourgeoisie and brought the curtain down on the Classical Age. This was about twice the size of normal Haydn or Mozart symphonies. In his preceding D Major Symphony, Beethoven had begun to move beyond the traditional concept of the classical symphony. This symphony brought about change. The change it brought involves more than the issues of harmony, counterpoint or an addition of a french horn to the ensemble. Post Eroica, appreciation of a symphony involves not only attention to compositional technique but includes the added dimension of meaning and interpretation. The symphony was started in 1803 and completed by early 1804 but the first performance was given at the Theater An Der Wien with Beethoven himself conducting on 7th April 1805. 
The symphony is scored for 56 strings, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets (in B Flat Major), 2 bassoons, 3 french horns (in E Flat Major and C Major), 2 trumpets and timpani.
After the two earth shattering E Flat Major chords, the opening movement, Allegro Con Brio, gives out a number of characteristic themes. As per Leonard Bernstein, "this was a battle cry .. the clarion call to a new understanding of music." At the time of its premiere, a third of the crowd appreciated the revolutionary opening, a third did not understand it at all and the remainder were shell shocked hoping that the entire proceedings were not taking place at all. The main theme is given out at the very beginning by the cellos in a quiet manner. The violins then enter with repeated high notes resolving to the second subject brought about by the clarinets and oboes and after few measures we come across the syncopations that play an important part in this great picture of strife. The linking of the development to the recapitulation is a special moment. The violins are still preparing the way by a tender episode for the winds, then repeated by the strings and the entry of the french horn that interrupts the turmoil; but after a short breather a rapid crescendo leads again to the clashing syncopations with seven chords. This gives rise to the second part with a glorious theme on the oboe. The coda is one of the most remarkable pieces of orchestral writing ever accomplished. In this movement, Beethoven indicates that the exposition is to be repeated. This repeat is generally omitted in performances or rather neglected. Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic has honoured it among a very select rare few.
Beethoven replaced the slow movement with a funeral march. The sombre and tragic mood of this movement reflects a universal emotion with its sad melody in C Minor and its heartfelt tones of melancholy. It was marked as Marcia Funebre - Adagio Assai. The movement is in rondo form. Its principal section is a solemn dirge in C Minor and is contrasted with a brighter episode in C Major and the massive fugato in F Minor. The outer sections are intense and heavily funereal but the central part is more mobile and brings a balance and contrast. Throughout this movement, the instrumental colours emphasise the solemnity. This movement is occasionally performed on memorial occasions. Serge Koussevitzky performed it with the Boston Symphony to commemorate the death of President Roosevelt. Bruno Walter did it for Arturo Toscanini. This remains as the first broad, spacious and towering Adagio in the Romantic Symphonies of Beethoven that is dwarfed only by the heavenly Adagio Molto of the Choral Ninth.
The Scherzo - Allegro Vivace is highly individualistic. It begins with a pianissimo staccato that has something mysterious in its character on the lower notes of the violins. The melody then rises into a higher octave in a short group of connected descending notes. In the trio, Beethoven uses a special sound effect - the unusual seventh in the french horns with an additional horn coming into play for the first time in an orchestral esemble. It breaks forth into a sudden fortissimo with a reminder of the syncopations of the Allegro Con Brio, climaxing with sinister drumbeats of the coda.
The Finale - Allegro Molto begins with a dominant seventh chord in the form of a cadenza and is a large scale series of variations on an impressive theme in the bass. In the third variation, a melody in the first oboe and clarinet is added to this theme and thereafter always appears with it. Beethoven was particularly fascinated by both these tunes as he had already used them in his 'Creatures of Prometheus' as well as in his Piano Variations opus 35. The movement now proceeds on to a fugue that ends with a grand climax bringing the symphony to its blazing conclusion.
Franz Liszt later transcribed this entire symphony to the pianoforte.
Hector Berlioz always mentioned this symphony in his "Treatise on Orchestration.'
The definitive performance of this symphony is by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic. Bernstein is in his element and is one of the first in the annals of recorded music to take the repeat in the first movement. I even have his lecture on " How a Great Symphony was Written" where he sits at the paino and plays out important themes from this revolutionary symphony as he goes on expanding each movement and its themes and how this work evolved. 
Other noteworthy performances are by Herbert Von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic; Otto Klemperer and the Philharmonia Orchestra. The Berlin acoustics are superb especially the oboes and the french horns particularly in the Scherzo. Klemperer's reading of the Marcia Funebre is superb.
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Georg Solti and Zubin Mehta have disappointed . Their readings do not have spine. I am referring to the Furtwangler / Vienna recording. I still have to hear the Furtwangler/Berlin performance of 1952. Even Toscanini has rushed through this symphony and failed to impress. 
Coming back to the definitive performance, Leonard Bernstein stands out on Sony/CBS.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Well, tahnak, thanks for your comprehensive description of one of the most important compositions ever written..


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## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

I have two particular problems with tahnak's assessment of Beethoven's 'Eroica' Symphony. The first is with his assertion that it was influenced by Napoleon's achievements. Is this true? I know it originally carried a dedication to the man whose eventual pronouncement of himself as Emperor drove Beethoven to scratch Bonaparte's name from the front of the manuscript, but I'm not aware of any evidence which proves that anything Napoleon actually _achieved_ directly influenced this symphony's writing.

My second problem is with the recommendation of Bernstein's recording as 'definitive'. How many recordings has tahnak heard in order to declare this one the greatest? Of the 20 or so in my collection, I'd be more inclined to award the laurels to John Eliot Gardiner for his revelatory reading on Archiv. If you want the revolutionary zeal that Beethoven surely intended his 'Heroic' symphony to convey, this recording will give it to you in spades.

FK


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Slow down the posts! I want to have a good look at Bethoven's No2. (Ooh er!) you say about the first movement:

Adagio Molto begins in D Major and briefly modulates to A Major. The exposition takes the A Major theme with a transition to B Flat major. The development uses this material with a codetta going through several modulations. The A major theme returns in the recapitulation and takes us to the coda and conclusion of the movement.

Once again the idea of discussing Beethoven's symphonies is to discuss them in particular. Your 'description' could apply to almost any classical sonata form movement, if it wasn't for the words transition to B flat major! Surely this is not all that defines this piece!

The Adagio Molto introduction to the 2nd symphony should be compared to the inrto of the 1st symphony. It's extended legth and harmonic complexity show B's developing maturity as a symphonist. The use of the woodwind opposing the full orchestral chords show his increasing fondness for these instruments. These opening bars alone make more use of a cappela woodwind colour than the alomst the whole of the 1st symphony. Another fearure of the slow intro is it's developement of the 'trill' theme used in the final movement. THe compact themic continuity of the opening dotted rythm chord is enough for Beethoven scholars to identify the dotted pick up in the last movement too. Though this may be a bit far fetched it does fall in with B's style of thinking concerning thematic units which I talked about discussing the 1st Symphony. Harmonically the inroduction does much more that just prepare the dominant as in the 1st. sym. Here the sustained B flat passage (and he really modulates to B flat! this is not just a flat sixth chord borrowed from the tonic minor) unsettles the tonality of the piece very early on. Then through a series of marvelous chords he manages to bring the music round to a Dominant pedal. I'd like to have a look at these chords to see where he is going:

At Bar 9 we are swung round to the relative minor by the 1st inversion F#7, the resolution comes in the woodwind which reflect the introductory passage in a compact version. In bar 10 the bass B now becomes the third of another dominant seventh, which now modulates to C major. Bar 11 sequentially modulates to Dminor before being wrenched into B flat by a ff second inversion dominant in that key. The E flat is totally unprepared! 
These few bars alone show how B was prepared, now, to write in a new more exploratory harmonic style from the word go. From the second symphony onwards there is a reactionary tendancy to foresquare harmony to support melodic exposition. I think here, in this introduction, we can see the foundations of the massive discursions into the Flat VI region we see in Bruckner and Mahler (the end of the slow movement of symphony no.4 being a paticulary beautiful example).

Anyone willing to continue from here?


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## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

I'm certainly willing, but I'm technically unable. 

FK


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Eroica readings*



Kuhlau said:


> I have two particular problems with tahnak's assessment of Beethoven's 'Eroica' Symphony. The first is with his assertion that it was influenced by Napoleon's achievements. Is this true? I know it originally carried a dedication to the man whose eventual pronouncement of himself as Emperor drove Beethoven to scratch Bonaparte's name from the front of the manuscript, but I'm not aware of any evidence which proves that anything Napoleon actually _achieved_ directly influenced this symphony's writing.
> 
> My second problem is with the recommendation of Bernstein's recording as 'definitive'. How many recordings has tahnak heard in order to declare this one the greatest? Of the 20 or so in my collection, I'd be more inclined to award the laurels to John Eliot Gardiner for his revelatory reading on Archiv. If you want the revolutionary zeal that Beethoven surely intended his 'Heroic' symphony to convey, this recording will give it to you in spades.
> 
> FK


1.When Beethoven started composing the E Flat major, he had Napoleon as the icon and hence the title 'Eroica' (heroism) and he meant the advents of Napoleon . The dedication did not happen to be a lottery. Two historians validate that, H.H. Stuckenschmidt and Anton Schindler.
2. Why do you assume that I have not heard any other recording of Eroica?
I have already mentioned Bernstein, Karajan, Klemperer, Solti, Zubin Mehta,Furtwangler, Toscanini. You may add to that the following: Karl Bohm with Vienna, Dohnanyi with Cleveland, Carlo Maria Giulini with Los Angeles, Bruno Walter with Columbia.
I have not heard Gardiner with the Orchestra Revolutionnaire et Romantique. I am sure it is a significant reading (considering that Gardiner has done a superb job with Beethoven's touched up Tenth, Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique and Messe Solennelle ( A World premiere recording) on Philips. When I get an opportunity, I will definitely listen to this version. Without hurting your sentiments, I once again state that among the eleven readings that I have heard, Bernstein stands out. It may come as a surprise to most but there it is! Do enlighten me with conductors who have taken the allegro con brio repeat and at the tempo that Bernstein takes it surely makes this early 60s reading a cracker!


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Add On ..*



post-minimalist said:


> Slow down the posts! I want to have a good look at Bethoven's No2. (Ooh er!) you say about the first movement:
> 
> Adagio Molto begins in D Major and briefly modulates to A Major. The exposition takes the A Major theme with a transition to B Flat major. The development uses this material with a codetta going through several modulations. The A major theme returns in the recapitulation and takes us to the coda and conclusion of the movement.
> 
> ...


The idea is to have a discourse and you are fulfilling that. I am not an authority nor the last word on the Master. You are most welcome to expand whenever you get the time and the spirit and if any one is keen to take on the interaction, we will benefit by the unending learning process of these sublime masterpieces.


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## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

tahnak said:


> 1.When Beethoven started composing the E Flat major, he had Napoleon as the icon and hence the title 'Eroica' (heroism) and he meant the advents of Napoleon . The dedication did not happen to be a lottery. Two historians validate that, H.H. Stuckenschmidt and Anton Schindler.


That's an interesting fact that was unknown to me previously. I'd always had it that Beethoven was influenced by the revolutionary spirit that was sweeping Europe at that time, and that his dedication came as an after-thought.



tahnak said:


> 2. Why do you assume that I have not heard any other recording of Eroica?


My apologies. What I meant to ask was how many recordings of this work have you heard which don't rely on older critical editions? I imagine none of the conductors you mention would've performed Beethoven's symphonies the way these are approached today. It's for this reason that I was shocked by your assertion about Bernstein - a man notorious for slow tempi, and one who almost certainly wouldn't have taken the Third Symphony at an appropriately spirited pace. Although, I could well be wrong - I've not heard that particular recording. 

FK


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## Gorm Less (Dec 11, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> Slow down the posts! I want to have a good look at Bethoven's No2. (Ooh er!) you say about the first movement:
> 
> blah blah blah
> 
> ...


Thank god for that. I reckon poor old Tahnak must be feeling terribly upstaged by all this technical stuff. I must say I don't find any of it remotely interesting. It looks like a bunch of arid notes handed out by a university prof to someone taking advanced conducting lessons, which is hardly likely to be of any practical use to anyone here.

I must say that I found all I need to know about the technicalities of Beethoven symphonies HERE. But the same consideration applies to much of the material I've seen all over this Board which is mostly a load of infantile waffle, stupid arguments and disagrrements, pathetic polls, mindless repetition of the same old guff, and the occasional mind-bogglingly complex piece (where someone is clearly trying to show off) such as that quoted above.

I mean, does anyone really learn anything from all this apparent "activity"? If they do, it's very sad as one can surely learn far more from spending the time picking one's way through various Wiki articles. Apart from all that, it's a jolly good site. Keep up the good work.


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## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Gorm Less

I thank you for the link to the Beethoven site. The rest of your post I can happily do without. 

FK


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Gorm Less said:


> Thank god for that. I reckon poor old Tahnak must be feeling terribly upstaged by all this technical stuff. I must say I don't find any of it remotely interesting. It looks like a bunch of arid notes handed out by a university prof to someone taking advanced conducting lessons, which is hardly likely to be of any practical use to anyone here.
> 
> I must say that I found all I need to know about the technicalities of Beethoven symphonies HERE. But the same consideration applies to much of the material I've seen all over this Board which is mostly a load of infantile waffle, stupid arguments and disagrrements, pathetic polls, mindless repetition of the same old guff, and the occasional mind-bogglingly complex piece (where someone is clearly trying to show off) such as that quoted above.
> 
> I mean, does anyone really learn anything from all this apparent "activity"? If they do, it's very sad as one can surely learn far more from spending the time picking one's way through various Wiki articles. Apart from all that, it's a jolly good site. Keep up the good work.


Thank you for your input! So glad you like the site!


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

tahnak said:


> The idea is to have a discourse and you are fulfilling that. I am not an authority nor the last word on the Master. You are most welcome to expand whenever you get the time and the spirit and if any one is keen to take on the interaction, we will benefit by the unending learning process of these sublime masterpieces.


Well said sir I quite agree


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

OK I get it. It's not enough to say that it starts and finishes in the same key but It's too much to say where it goes. (or something like that.) I do actually like music.
I could say how elecrtic shivers go up and down my spine when I listen to the intro of Beethoven 7 and how I spontaneously burst into tears on hearing the slow movement from the 4th ( the bit with the loud trumpets and the descending bass.) I could also explain why this happens and still not reduce my enjoyment because of it. Is that a crime gentlemen?:angry:
FC


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Gorm Less said:


> I must say that I found all I need to know about the technicalities of Beethoven symphonies HERE.


You don't_ need_ to know anything so the whole question is irrelevant. If you _want_ to know then how much should be up to the individual. Hey, get it where you find it!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

After that delightful interlude I'm going to continue with more dry, boring analysis.

Carrying on from where I left off (bar 12 - 15 B flat pedal), after establishing this remote region of the flat VI we are shunted by the use of a Augmented sixth chord to the dominant Cminor. The final 8th note of bar 16 where the leading F - F# - G in the top voice and Bb - Ab - G in the bass (contrary chromatic motion) gives the impression 'expanding outward'. Here we see a tendancy towards 'Romantic' harmony. Even though these chords are not new here, the fact that within 20 bars we have taken a roller-coaster ride through remote regions must have come as a tremendous shock to listeners at the time who have been 'trained' to expect the beginning of a symphony to establish the tonic and lay out in some simple way a 'tonal' foundation for the work. Beethoven reaches into the tonic minor in this introduction borrowing, not from Mozart, but from Haydn who had begun in this way in some of his later Symphonies (101 and even more notably 104, both in D major but with Dminor introductions). Beethoven takes this idea a step or two further by 'wandering' in search of the 'way out'. This is to become something of a trade mark in his works (see the finale to the 9th for the ultimate example of this). Back to the nuts and bolts, while the dominant of Cminor might take us there Beethoven decides to lose sight of land and go into free fall through a cycle of dominant sevenths G7 - C7 - F7 all the time developing sequentially fast rising scales in the strings contrasted with slow falling arpeggios (broken chords) in the woodwind. At bar 20 come the 'crunch'. The cycle of 5ths is broken and the first inversion D7 (dominant of G minor) gives us a 'new bearing'. This is a very important point aurally. This is the place where Schenker would say that 'we start our conscious return to Ithaka'. Indeed there is suddenly a huge magnetic force which will drag us to some conclusion whether we want it or not... we feel it coming. But where are we going? Beethoven has now 'brainwashed us into hearing Dminor and not major as a logical conclusion. So the unison ff Dminor arpeggio seems to sound quite normal and is not a shock at all. Here it could be said that the idea comes from Haydn 104 which start with a very similar declaration of Dminor. 

Skipping forward I could mention the trills at bar 29 being the germ of the thematic unit in the 4th movement. That D major actually comes as a surprise at bar 31 is one of Beethovens specialities. He is very good at making tonic root position chords sound like they need resolution or some how odd and surprising! ( there is a whole bar of root position G major in the 1st mvt. of the 4th piano concerto which just begs resolution.) 

OK enough waffle. The upshot of all this is that when you listen to this, you are unsettled and 'drawn' into the plot of 'How do we get out of this?' That's one of the reasons B's Symphonies are so rivveting - they have an, albeit unwritten, narrative upon which we are carried to the last chord.

Allegro con Brio next.


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## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Nice to see that you remain undaunted by (the appropriately named, IMO) Gorm Less's recent attempt at rubbishing serious musical discussion.

FK


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Expression*



post-minimalist said:


> OK I get it. It's not enough to say that it starts and finishes in the same key but It's too much to say where it goes. (or something like that.) I do actually like music.
> I could say how elecrtic shivers go up and down my spine when I listen to the intro of Beethoven 7 and how I spontaneously burst into tears on hearing the slow movement from the 4th ( the bit with the loud trumpets and the descending bass.) I could also explain why this happens and still not reduce my enjoyment because of it. Is that a crime gentlemen?:angry:
> FC


No it is not at all a crime. Yet in this forum, you will have to take all kinds of reactions and in the right spirit.
But it is very forthright of you to come out with emotional supplications like the one describing your feelings on the opening of the seventh and the adagio of the fourth. More often than not, it is the heartfelt simple emotions that are deeper than the technical inputs of knowledge.
This is not to detract you from the excellent outpouring on the first movement of the Eroica that you should continue to expand at your next convenience.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

Gorm Less said:


> Thank god for that. I reckon poor old Tahnak must be feeling terribly upstaged by all this technical stuff. I must say I don't find any of it remotely interesting. It looks like a bunch of arid notes handed out by a university prof to someone taking advanced conducting lessons, which is hardly likely to be of any practical use to anyone here.
> 
> No Sir, Iam not feeling upstaged. I have seen, heard and absorbed much in life that has given me tolerance and patience. I respect your views as those of FC. I feel , at first sight, yes, anyone would feel that he is trying to show off with an air of pomp but that is his enthusiasm in expressing the machinations that have worked their way in the Master's mind. He has taken the pain to elaborate on that and we dare not discourage him.
> 
> Keep on ahead, FC.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Cheers, tahnak!

Sometimes poeple feel that they will lose something or it will somehow detract from their enjoyment if they analyse the technicalites of music. I don't believe this at all and, for me, knowing that there is (as I mentioned above) a point where you 'feel like you're starting to head for home' is a marvelous discovery. I feel it more deeply because I am aware it's happening and can live the experience. Most listeners have just a vague notion that this is going on and get a thrill from not knowing what's happening to them. Music is like a dense jungle; if you are prepared to deal with what you meet there you will get along much better. 

For me, being able to listen through the first blinding flash to the inner workings and thought process of the composer gives me the opportunity to enjoy a Beethoven symphony, say the same way an art lover might re-examine over and over again a Rembrandt looking at the brush strokes, the handling of light and shade, the contrast and compsition of form etc. I am trying to share this with whoever wants to join in.
In no way am I trying to 'show off'. As you rightly said; It's my way of expressing my enthusiasm.
Beethoven is my cosmic journey. I did my post-grad on B's symphonies so they mean a lot to me. I think I have a right to analyse them in depth, both thechnically and emotionally so I thank you for the motivation to do so again after so many years. 
FC


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 in B Flat Major*

It has been about more than sixty days since I shared notes on Eroica. Have been travelling much to Thailand and Indonesia. Returned back recently and am now able to get time to move on to the Fourth Symphony.

Robert Schumann described the fourth symphony as a ' slender Greek maiden between two Norse giants like Fasolt and Fafner'. This is the struggling Titan between 'Eroica' and 'Fate'. In his Fourth Symphony in B Flat Major, Op. 60, written in 1806, Beethoven returns to a cheerful mood as if enjoying a period of recreation after the storm and struggle of his intense and reflective 'Eroica'. In its joyous spirit, it reflects back on Mozart again like the Second Symphony. Having said that, it is mature and musically more significant than the symphonies of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

The Fourth Symphony is written for 38 strings, one flute, two oboes, two clarinets, two bassoons, two french horns(B flat and E flat), two trumpets (B flat and E flat) and two pairs of timpani.

Beethoven wrote the piece during a late summer stay in Upper Silesia at the Palace of Count Franz Von Oppersdorff to whom the work eventually was dedicated. The work premiered at a private concert at the Prince Franz Joseph Von Lobkowitz Palace in Wien along with the first performance of the G Major Fourth Piano Concerto on 15th March 1807 with the composer at the keyboard. This concert also featured the Coriolan Overture.

THe Fourth Symphony is happy in mood in the first movement. Beethoven reverts in this symphony to the tradition of the slow introduction in simple earnestness. The subordinate theme is emphasized by the bassoon and oboe. The first codetta is repeated in eight measures. The final sections of the development return to the beginning of the passages leading us into the recapitulation in an efficient manner. The harmony is led into the chord of F Sharp Major as dominant seventh of B Major and sustains there in pianissimo mode for twenty eight measures. The A Sharp or B Flat is murmured by the timpani when the harmony shifts into the tonic of B Flat Major (the original key), the drums continuing their roll upon the same tone and increasing their volume with the remainder of the ensemble until the recapitulation opens with a glorious sound where the pivotal tone is entrusted to the timpani. This movement melts in your mouth like a Snickers bar.
The Adagio expresses a tenderness unique in Beethoven's symphonies. It is of a lyric quality and appealing beauty. It is somewhat a rondo in E Flat Major designed in a short and concise form. The main theme is preceded by a measure in marked rhythm. The subordinate theme and the codetta are easily identifiable. Again, the rhythmic introductory measure is given repeatedly to the pairs of timpani, once with the french horns before the recapitulation and another time as a solo just two measures before the end. This ia gem of a slow movement that never looks like an adagio or an adagietto but moves at a brisker pace. The conclusion of the movement is full of punch. The Adagio is similar to some of Haydn's slow movements, particularly the 102nd symphony that also happens to be in the same key.
The Menuetto is bustling with a figurate theme. It is also marked Allegro Vivace. Actually, it is a scherzo with trio. The trio section is played twice which creates a five-part structure instead of the usual three-part form. It is a delightful scherzo. This movement played by the Berliners in the superb Philharmoniker Halle under Andre Cluytens resonates so well that other orchestras sound insipid while playing this movement.
The finale is dismembered and slowed down as if in slow motion after which the rapid ending has the effect of a burst of laughter from the good humoured master at his bewildered listeners. It is a 'humoresque' with contrasting themes. It is another example of Beethoven's return to the earlier manner of Haydn and Mozart with a style that they held appropriate for a final movement of a symphony. It would have met consent of both Haydn and Mozart. It is in the Sonata-Allegro form. The structure is perfectly regular and easy to follow. The principal phrase is humorously extended eleven measures before the end after a stupendous climax in the full orchestra; the violin, the bassoon, the viola and the cello softly express the thematic melody in slower rhythm pausing comically on the last eighth note in each of the three last measures. The symphony heads towards a conclusion with a dazzling perpetual motion ( Allegro Ma Non Troppo) that nods again to Haydn. It is this movement that hints that the fourth symphony is filled with musical jokes, mostly jokes aimed at other musical insiders. The frenzy and fervour that characterises much of the final movement is abruptly derailed in the final page; sudden tempi changes force the conductor to stay on his toes and a final brief bassoon solo sounds like a parting chuckle.
Beethoven's Fourth has suffered obscurity in comparison with the performances of Eroica and Fate. However, it blends the gracious classicism of his early years with the hearty orchestrations of his later works. Beethoven was enjoying a rare period of happiness while composing this symphony. Though this work was not so well received as the Coriolan Overture and the Fourth Piano Concerto in its premiere performance, it remains a gem , a 'slender Greek maiden' indeed between 'two Norse giants'.
There are five performances of note for this symphony. The definitive is Andre Cluytens with the Berliners; Pablo Casals with the Barcelona Symphony on 1939 (78s); Otto Klemperer with the Philharmonia; Herbert Von Karajan with the Berliners and Yevgeny Mravinsky with the Leningrad Philharmonic.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Now, my freind, this is more like it!!
FC


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm starting to come around to Beethoven more and more. I just got in the mail today these two great sets:


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> ....I spontaneously burst into tears on hearing the slow movement from the 4th ( the bit with the loud trumpets and the descending bass.)....
> FC


Now here is the bit I'm talking about: In the slow movement the recapitulation come in bar 42. It is preceeded by a whole bar of just the second violins playing the accompaniment figure. The opening melody is now decorated with florid triplets and it leads 8 bars later to a mighty crescendo which culminates in one of the most spectacular harmonic devices in the whole of Beethoven. The device is called a inner-voice pedal note. I know this doesn't sound like much but it works like this. One of the inner voices holds the same note throughout a series of chords despite the fact that the note deosnot belong to all the chords. This has a super psychologcal effect of creating forward motion and tension as the harmoies go past. In the section following the crescendo the trumpets play an E flat throughout the first of the sfz bars ( there are four bars of sforzandi, 12 loud chords in all). The second chord however is a Dflat major in first inversion so the E flat in the trumpets in a 'foreign' note. The effect is stunning if you concentrtate on the trumpets. The same thing happens a bar latter (on the 7th chord) where the trumpet Bflat is sunk into an Aflat major chord. The tempo is slow enough here for each chord to take on a kind of seperate identity where the 'foreign' note seems to fit it. This process is quite rare and occurs in very few places in the Classical repertoire (there is another incident in the Mendelssohn Octet) but in late romantic work, and certianly in 20th century composition, it is is common place. However, at the time Beethoven was writing these bars must have seemed like an orchestrational mistake to many listeners. How often we take this passage for granted with our 'modern' ears! May I suggest another listen to that passage?

FC


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Beethoven's IV (II)*

it. This process is quite rare and occurs in very few places in the Classical repertoire (there is another incident in the Mendelssohn Octet) but in late romantic work, and certianly in 20th century composition, it is is common place. However, at the time Beethoven was writing these bars must have seemed like an orchestrational mistake to many listeners. How often we take this passage for granted with our 'modern' ears! May I suggest another listen to that passage?

FC[/QUOTE]

Yes. I heard it and understood what you are trying to say. Andre Cluytens has done wonders with this movement in the late sixties' version with the Berlin.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Here's Herbie doing the honours. The passage I mentioned starts at exactly 14:40. These are the 12 sfz chords.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

There has been a long break between the Fourth B Flat Major and the C Minor Fifth... I shall arrive tomorrow, God Willing, with the latter...


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Symphony No. 5 . C Minor. Op. 67*

Work had already begun on the C Minor Fifth by April 1804. It was completed by the beginning of 1808. The first performance took place in the Theater An Der Wien on 22nd December 1808.
This symphony is one of the most popular and well known compositions in all of European classical music. This is one of the most frequently played symphonies of all. It is in four movements: an opening sonata allegro con brio followed by an andante, a scherzo with trio and attaca to the finale.
This symphony has become popular due to the terse nature of the themes and because of the artistic unity of the work; also due to the fact to a large degree of Anton Schindler's oft-quoted story much after Beethoven's death that Beethoven described the opening of the first movement as "Thus Fate knocks at the door!". Ever since, this symphony has been supposed to portray the struggle with fate on both personal and universal terms.
While composing this symphony, Beethoven continuously interrupted this work to prepare others like Fidelio, Appassionata sonata, the Razumovsky string quartets, the violin concerto and the Fourth Piano Concerto.
Beethoven was in his mid thirties during this time and his personal life was troubled by increasing deafness. Even the world was troubled by the Napoleonic wars, political turmoil in Austria and the occupation of Vienna by Napoleon's troops in 1805.
The Fifth Symphony is scored for 23 first violins, 14 second violins, 6 violas, 6 cellos, 4 double basses, piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets (B flat and C major), 2 bassoons, contrabassoon, 2 french horns (in E flat and C major), 2 trumpets, 3 trombones (alto, tenor and bass) and two pairs of timpani (tuned in G and C). A performance dictated by the tempi markings should last a minimum of thirty three minutes if the repeats are ignored in the first and last movements.
The Allegro Con Brio is ferocious. It begins by a distinctive four-note motif twice, allegorical to "fate knocking at the door". Hence I too call this symphony , "FATE". This motif appears frequently in popular culture too from disco to rock and roll; to appearance in films and TV. During the second world war, BBC used the four-note motif to inroduce its radio news broadcasts because the rhythm it denotes is the morse code letter 'V'.
Some conductors take this motif 'molto ritardando' with the fermata over the fourth note justifying this. Following the first bars, Beethoven uses imitations to expand the fate theme; these imitations forming a single, flowing melody. A very short fortissimo bridge is played by the french horns that takes place before a second theme is introduced. This second theme is in E Flat Major, the relative major to the home key and is lyrical. the codetta is again based on the four-note motif. The development section follows using modulation sequences and imitation including the short fortissimo bridge. During the recapitulation, there is a brief solo beautiful passage for the oboe in improvisatory style and the movement ends in a massive coda.
The Andante is delicate. It is in A Flat Major. It is lyrical in double variation form. Two themes are presented and varied in alternation. After these variations, there is a long coda. The first theme is a melody in unison by the violas and cellos with accompaniment by the double basses. The second theme is harmonic with support by clarinets, bassoons, first and second violins with a triplet arpeggio in the violas and double bass. This is followed up by a third theme with thirty-second notes in the violas and cellos with a counterphrase running in the flute, oboe and bassoon. Then, there is an interlude where the whole orchestra joins in a fortissimo leading to a series of crescendoes and a coda to close the movement.
When the scherzo arrives, we understand that the unity extends through the entire work. The second subject of the scherzo again beats out the hammering opening rhythm of the symphony in its first bars, this time on a single note. Such inner unity which enables a work of art to live must spring ultimately from the creative mind with a constant interplay between intuition and hard grinding work. This movement is in ternary form consisting of a scherzo and trio. It follows the traditional mould of classic symphonic third movements but breaks out of the minuet-trio hemisphere. Even with Beethoven's early works, the scherzo is followed by a contrasting trio section, a return of the scherzo and a coda. But this is so different that it towers over all scherzo-trios written before, with especially the strings pizzicato touch, an effect that was brilliantly mirrored again by Tchaikovsky in his F Minor Fourth. The usual classical symphonies as I told earlier employed the minuet and trio as the third movement; but Beethoven chose to use a new scherzo and trio form. The movement returns to the opening key of C Minor played by the cellos and double basses. It is reminiscent of the opening theme of the final movement of Mozart's G Minor Fortieth, though in a different key and range. This was discovered by Gustav Nottebohm when he examined Beethoven's sketchbook of the Fifth where 29 measures of Mozart's finale appear copied out by Beethoven at the side. Th opening theme is answered by a theme played by the clarinets, oboes and bassoons. The french horns loudly announce the main theme. The trio section is in C Major and is written contrapuntally. When the scherzo returns for the final time, it is performed by the strings pizzicato and marked 'piano'. The scherzo then contrasts this figure with the famous motif (3+1) from the first movement which takes command of the whole movement in transition... accelerando... attacca... to the Allegro
which begins triumphantly and exhilaratingly without interruption. This movement is in C Major and is significantly interspersed by a return to the hammering motif of the scherzo. The orchestra is here enriched with a piccolo, contrabassoon and three trombones. This is the transition from darkness to light. It is an unusual variant of sonata; at the end of the development section, the music halts on a dominant cadence played fortissimo. Then the music continues after a pause with a quiet reprise of the horn theme of the scherzo movement. The recapitulation is then introduced by a crescendo coming out of the last bars of the interpolated scherzo section just as the same music was introduced at the opening of the movement. Haydn, in his own style, had done this in his Forty Sixth Symphony in B Major. Maybe, Beethoven had kept that at the back of his mind. Peer influence does speak somewhere. Haydn had tutored Beethoven for a short while. This finale includes a long coda in which the main themes of the movement are played in temporally compressed form. As the crescendo builds, the tempo is increased to 'presto'. The symphony ends in a magnificent style with 29 bars of C Major chords played fortissimo.
Many noteworthy conductors have disappointed while recording this symphony - a long list includes Toscanini, Furtwangler, Solti, Zubin Mehta, Andre Previn,Otto Klemperer and Riccardo Muti to name a few. Two performances among many have made the grade - Herbert Von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic and it is the latter which is the definitive performance because Bernstein respects and honours the repeats in both the opening movement and the finale taking the symphony to a respectable thirty eight minutes in his 1961 performance.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

*Beethoven 5 III -> IV*

Probably the most famous bridge between two movements in all music.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

I seem to remember that this was the first time Beethoven used the Clarinet in a symphony or am I floundering ?


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Andante said:


> I seem to remember that this was the first time Beethoven used the Clarinet in a symphony or am I floundering ?


I don't know who was the first composer to use clarinets in the symphony orchestra but it's definately not Beethoven. Mozart's "great" g minor symphony K.550 (#40), written in 1788 exists in 2 versions: one with and one without clarinets.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Andante said:


> I seem to remember that this was the first time Beethoven used the Clarinet in a symphony or am I floundering ?


Oops, I'm sorry, I misread your post: I thought you were saying that it was Beethoven who first used the clarinet in the symphony orchestra.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

I have checked out the clarinet question that I raised and see that I had got it wrong, I knew it was something to do with the clarinet and it appears that it was the way he used it that was interesting, his reliance on 2 Oboes and 2 horns was basic to 18th century classical orch but he now began to use Clarinet and Bassoon and that transformed the woodwind in the orch,


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Kuhlau said:


> I have two particular problems with tahnak's assessment of Beethoven's 'Eroica' Symphony. The first is with his assertion that it was influenced by Napoleon's achievements. Is this true? I know it originally carried a dedication to the man whose eventual pronouncement of himself as Emperor drove Beethoven to scratch Bonaparte's name from the front of the manuscript, but I'm not aware of any evidence which proves that anything Napoleon actually _achieved_ directly influenced this symphony's writing.


As a rank amateur, I hesitate to contribute to a thread such as this. However, according to my reading, your doubts as to the possible influence of Napoleon on the writing of the Eroica are entirely justified, in spite of tahnak's subsequent remarks.

There seems to be no doubt that Napoleon was considered, first in respect of a dedication, then in respect of a 'title'. However, I am aware of no evidence at all, either musical or otherwise, that Napoleon's exploits influenced the writing of the music. Here are some thoughts which those of you more knowledgeable than myself may care to comment on or amend.

First, Beethoven, along with many composers, was rather pragmatic when it came to earning his bread. Around the time the Eroica was composed, he is known to have been contemplating a move from Wien (where he never really felt comfortable) to Paris. Naturally, the dedication of a Grande Symphonie to Napoleon would very much have smoothed this transition, had it come to pass. When it did not, however, and Beethoven remained in Wien, such a dedication would hardly have been appropriate, given that Napoleon's name was anathema to the Austrian aristocracy (for very good reason!). So, whatever Ferdinand Ries may have written about Beethoven's motive for his emotional tearing up of the title page, it is possible that this was merely an excuse for a decision that Beethoven had taken on rather more practical grounds. Ries was Beethoven's student, not his confidante.

Second, as regards the music itself, there is to my mind a much more compelling source of inspiration than the exploits of a soldier. Beethoven was not an awfully modest person. He was aware of his powers and of his place in the world of music. Just prior to the writing of the Eroica he penned the Heiligenstadt Testament. This is written as a will, granting credence to his assertion that he was contemplating suicide. He described as best he could in words his internal turmoil at the prospect of deafness and asserted that his only motivation for continuing to live was his art. (In case anyone does not know this, Beethoven showed the Testament to no-one. But he kept it and it was found after his death.)

Would there be a more important hero in Beethoven's imagination than one who's inner turmoil drove him to death, but who resolved to remain alive in spite of certain adversity -- for the sake of his art?

It makes sense to me, in human and in musical terms, that the turmoil, death and triumphant resurrection in the Eroica was inspired by the descent into crisis and its ultimate overcoming of the composer himself.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

tahnak said:


> Many noteworthy conductors have disappointed while recording this symphony - a long list includes Toscanini, Furtwangler, Solti, Zubin Mehta, Andre Previn,Otto Klemperer and Riccardo Muti to name a few. Two performances among many have made the grade - Herbert Von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic...


Herbert von Karajan & his Berlin forces have taken this one to the studio at least three times- which of that trio of renditions do you consider holds pride of place??

(Heaven help me), I actually _like_ Solti's digital 5th! I recognize this is a minority opinion. Among reviewers, the only other positive comments I've heard concerning this offering came from Bill Parker.

The 'usual suspects' review tomes tend to rate Carlos Kleiber's Vienna Phil. 5th at the top of their respective tables. I have this disc- I suppose most Beethoven fans (except for HIP purists) are familiar with this recording.

For a real "Old Style" performance, I also have a mono account, dating from November 1931, by Stokowski & The Philadelphia Orchestra.

Really, I'm not unhappy with any of my quintet of '5th' recordings.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

My pride of place goes to Carlos Kleiber with the VPO a 1975 recording, the playing is top notch but the audio is a wee bit thin, there has been a remastered re-issue but I am nostalgically sticking to the original


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

Andante said:


> I seem to remember that this was the first time Beethoven used the Clarinet in a symphony or am I floundering ?


Not the clarinet but the contrabassoon and the three trombones and piccolo


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Herbert von Karajan & his Berlin forces have taken this one to the studio at least three times- which of that trio of renditions do you consider holds pride of place??
> 
> The last 1978 recording . This has better acoustics; otherwise the readings are more or less on same spiritual levels whether it is 1961 or 1969.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm going to conduct the 1st symphony in february (first time conducting a major oeuvre) any reference books to read? (analysis, historical, biographical about that period...)


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