# Do you like old "classic" recordings of CM?



## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

The question is in the title of the thread. Do you like Josef Hofmann's records? How about Michelangeli's or Gieseking's famed Debussy recordings, which were the standard for many years? Horowitz? Menuhin's two legendary recordings of Bach's violin sonatas and partitas? Arrau? Fischer? Casals? Marcelle Meyer? Beethoven quartets by the Busch String Quartet? These are just examples, of course, but hopefully they explain what I'm trying to ask.

I'd like to know because many such records are very dear to me, but it seems to me that they are not very frequently recommended on TC or elsewhere. Gould and Richter are maybe two pianists of the comparatively old guard who still get mentioned, but most of the time I see Schiff, Perahia, Hewitt, Pollini, et al. recommended, Rostropovich and Bylsma rather than Casals, and so on. I don't mean to knock modern performers at all, and indeed in some repertoire I can't listen to the old classics (e.g. Walcha in Bach - completely unbearable to me). But I wonder if styles and preferences have changed over time, or if record labels have to push older recordings out of the market to make new CDs more saleable. Or perhaps recording quality is an issue and younger people who grew up with far better audio can't stand the noise and the hiss of the older records?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I like anything that's good. Like Landowska's Scarlatti, Toscanini's Eroica from 1939, Furtwangler's Beethoven 9 from 1942, Gieseking's Debussy Preludes, Schnabel's and Fischer's Beethoven, and Beecham's Delius. After a while, I forget the sound quality and get caught up in the artistry. And if I'm lucky, some engineer will fiddle with them and make the sound even better (like the Great Conductors of the 20th Century series.)

The older recordings do get mentioned around here; you just have to keep your eyes peeled.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

As an introduction to a certain piece, I can't get into many pre-40's recordings which lack presence in sound, but once I know certain pieces well, I get into some old pre-war classics for a different perspective. I usually go for more interpretative detail and effect over sound quality, there is a balance point though, when the sound just sucks too bad.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

On the contrary, I have noticed many of the old great recordings mentioned quite a bit on here.

I came of age when the CD was coming into its own, and the clarity of recorded music was really becoming very good. So it initially took me some time to come to appreciate an old mono recording of anything. But a lot of it started with my love of jazz and swing, and to hear many of the old great big band conductors, you had to be willing to listen to old mono recordings with lots of hiss and imperfect recorded sound. And I found it wasn't that hard to get past.

My old recordings collection is not extensive, but I have some old mono Klemperer recordings, some Busch Quartet recordings, Menuchin, Furtwängler - can't remember them all. I don't shy away from them at all.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Especially with pianists, I rather dislike most modern recordings. I feel they are hallow, even if they implement certain effects. For me the most modern pianist I really like is Kovacevich. I really hated the Grammaphone Good CD Guide for recommending more modern recordings as "top" recommendations with how many dots (their version of stars) and leave out the dots and give a recommendation of an old recording at the end of their recommended list, more for historical importance. 

In the definitive versions thread I gave Talich's Dvorak's New World Symphony the word definitive. it blows the competition away in terms of the amount interpretive detail (yes, this can be objective), while keeping a broader view of the structure of the piece (more subjective). The Grammaphone guide gave it no dots, historical importance only, behind many other versions with clearly less detail, and in my opnion much inferior. The sound wasn't even that bad either.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

It depends. I have a few CDs where they digitized the music from a record. These usually sound bad. Either they left the pops and clicks on there or they ran them through aggressive "no noise" filters which saps the recordings from any sense of space. There's some occasions where they sound okay if the record was in very good condition, but this isn't always the case.

I do have a few Ansermet mono recordings on CD. The performances and music are good so I don't really worry too much about the less than stellar audio fidelity. I don't mind tape hiss that much (I'm used to listening to cassettes without noise reduction so it's not new to me) and it's only really a problem if the music is so dynamic to have music lost in the noise floor. This isn't a problem with most music though. Some of these recordings could have been recorded better even using the technology of the times. I can hear analog distortion in parts of Ansermet's recording of Liszt's _Battle of the Huns_ in parts where the music gets loud. The engineer probably should have backed off the levels a little bit, but oh well. It's not enough to ruin the listening experience.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> It depends. I have a few CDs where they digitized the music from a record. These usually sound bad. Either they left the pops and clicks on there or they ran them through aggressive "no noise" filters which saps the recordings from any sense of space. There's some occasions where they sound okay if the record was in very good condition, but this isn't always the case.
> 
> I do have a few Ansermet mono recordings on CD. The performances and music are good so I don't really worry too much about the less than stellar audio fidelity. I don't mind tape hiss that much (I'm used to listening to cassettes without noise reduction so it's not new to me) and it's only really a problem if the music is so dynamic to have music lost in the noise floor. This isn't a problem with most music though. Some of these recordings could have been recorded better even using the technology of the times. I can hear analog distortion in parts of Ansermet's recording of Liszt's _Battle of the Huns_ in parts where the music gets loud. The engineer probably should have backed off the levels a little bit, but oh well. It's not enough to ruin the listening experience.


Ansermet was an amazing conductor. There is a remastered version of his Dukas Sorcerer's Apprentice in one of the cheap Universal discs, which is in really good sound, and the performance blew me off my chair. I liked the old Dutton recordings. No wanting from me in terms of sound.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> The question is in the title of the thread. Do you like Josef Hofmann's records? How about Michelangeli's or Gieseking's famed Debussy recordings, which were the standard for many years? Horowitz? *Menuchin's* two legendary recordings of Bach's violin sonatas and partitas? Arrau? Fischer? Casals? Marcelle Meyer? Beethoven quartets by the Busch String Quartet? These are just examples, of course, but hopefully they explain what I'm trying to ask.
> 
> I'd like to know because many such records are very dear to me, but it seems to me that they are not very frequently recommended on TC or elsewhere. Gould and Richter are maybe two pianists of the comparatively old guard who still get mentioned, but most of the time I see Schiff, Perahia, Hewitt, Pollini, et al. recommended, Rostropovich and Bylsma rather than Casals, and so on. I don't mean to knock modern performers at all, and indeed in some repertoire I can't listen to the old classics (e.g. Walcha in Bach - completely unbearable to me). But I wonder if styles and preferences have changed over time, or if record labels have to push older recordings out of the market to make new CDs more saleable. Or perhaps recording quality is an issue and younger people who grew up with far better audio can't stand the noise and the hiss of the older records?


I'm sure you are referring to Yehudi Menuhin's Bach. Unfortunately, the great violinists of the past including Menuhin, Szeryng and Grumiaux used excessive anachronistic mannerisms, such as heavy vibrato, sliding into notes and extending a final note of a segment or even worse, extending a final note of a segment with a crescendo. I cannot listen to Bach played that way.

No such problems occur with Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. As a matter of fact, a great pianist of the past, Annie Fischer, is my favorite pianist for consistency throughout the complete set.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I'm sure you are referring to Yehudi Menuhin's Bach. Unfortunately, the great violinists of the past including Menuhin, Szeryng and Grumiaux used excessive anachronistic mannerisms, such as heavy vibrato, sliding into notes and extending a final note of a segment or even worse, extending a final note of a segment with a crescendo.


I have the same problem. Also, Mischa Elman bothers me because he jumps in before the beat. I hate to admit, I haven't gotten more deeply into the Busch Quartet because of the portamento. It's probably a personal prejudice, but I have to live with my ears.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I'm sure you are referring to Yehudi Menuhin's Bach. Unfortunately, the great violinists of the past including Menuhin, Szeryng and Grumiaux used excessive anachronistic mannerisms, such as heavy vibrato, sliding into notes and extending a final note of a segment or even worse, extending a final note of a segment with a crescendo. I cannot listen to Bach played that way.


Oops, my English and my memory got the best of me. I know precisely what you mean, but for me it depends on both the performer and my mood.



hpowders said:


> No such problems occur with Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. As a matter of fact, a great pianist of the past, Annie Fischer, is my favorite pianist for consistency throughout the complete set.


Fischer is one of my favorites, too. Interestingly, and maybe not with her but with earlier pianists, I know a few people who'd put _them_ down for using anachronistic mannerisms - like Hofmann's rubato here: 



 - but I love it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> Oops, my English and my memory got the best of me. I know precisely what you mean, but for me it depends on both the performer and my mood.
> 
> Fischer is one of my favorites, too. Interestingly, and maybe not with her but with earlier pianists, I know a few people who'd put _them_ down for using anachronistic mannerisms - like Hofmann's rubato here:
> 
> ...


I bought Grumiaux and Szeryng's Bach and while they play with conviction, the vibrato really bothers me. It never stops.

I recently bought Kyung Wha Chung's recent Bach recording, and while she plays a modern violin at modern pitch, she at least has absorbed HIP style by keeping vibrato toned down and ending a segment of a partita or sonata without extraneous drama.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

When I first got into Classical music, I sought after good sound quality over good performance. Now I seek good performance on top of all else! So yes, I certainly enjoy some older recordings simply because of the playing.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Sound quality is very important to me and is a factor while considering some purchase or listening, nevertheles there are some magnificent recordings that I just can't resist and that are dear jewels to me, no mattering if sound quality is not perfect or not even good. Is the case only for chamber and solo pieces recordings. Some of they are:

Casals recordings, Casals musicianship has no equal, aside his historic Bach recording I love his "Encore" renditions
Fritz Kreissler, his "encores" as well
Cortot, his Chopin recordings
Meyer, her Rameau recordings
Heifetz, everything he plays is on fire
Sofronitsky, for Scriabin of course
Now I'm loving a Vegh quartet boxset, Beethoven, Bartok and Brahms played magnificently


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

The performance is more important than the sound for me and I love that warm analogue ambience. To tell the truth, very few of my classical recordings come from later than the 1970s and the majority are from the 20s through to the 60s. Many of my favourites are from the 30s, 40s and 50s. I think in those days classical music was far more popular than it is now (less competition from modern genres) and received more attention and more funding leading to exceptionally high performance standards among the larger more famous orchestras. 

It's true that live recordings are rarer, due to the difficulty of making these with the technology of the time but I think I have at least some from the early 1930s. Some of the German recordings made in the last years of the war using experimental tape technology are quite astonishing, particularly the very small number of stereo recordings that have survived. It is a tragedy that something like 98% of the stereo recordings made at that time are believed lost or destroyed although there have been rumours for decades that some survived in archives in Russia and, more recently, in private archives in the West.

In short, I'm a confirmed member of the historical recordings school. However, it is amazing what modern computer remastering carried out by someone who knows what they're doing can achieve.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Rachmaninov own recordings of his PCs are imo indispensable. There are many passages in these works that even with the best of performances can sound like pointless repetition but in his recordings every phrase makes sense, like a picture that suddenly snaps into focus. I do enjoy Hoffman and Cortot in Chopin, and Schnabel Beethoven is on my phone. I have May mono recordings by Horowitz and Rubinstein


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I recently bought Kyung Wha Chung's recent Bach recording, and while she plays a modern violin at modern pitch, she at least has absorbed HIP style by keeping vibrato toned down and ending a segment of a partita or sonata without extraneous drama.


I've never heard of that one, will keep in mind. My personal favorite recording of Bach's solo violin pieces is the one by Holloway (HIP, period instrument), although like I said, on some days I just need some of that older style of playing in my life.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Rachmaninov own recordings of his PCs are imo indispensable. There are many passages in these works that even with the best of performances can sound like pointless repetition but in his recordings every phrase makes sense, like a picture that suddenly snaps into focus. I do enjoy Hoffman and Cortot in Chopin, and Schnabel Beethoven is on my phone. I have May mono recordings by Horowitz and Rubinstein


Agreed, Horowitz's 30s performances are unbelievable even if the sound is less than perfect. Schnabel is still my favourite Beethoven cycle. As I've said elsewhere, the Nuova Era version sounds natural and detailed although there may be more recent remasters that I haven't heard that sound even better. However, any recording from that era will never match a modern digital recording in terms of sound quality however good the remastering job.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Klassik said:


> It depends. I have a few CDs where they digitized the music from a record. These usually sound bad. Either they left the pops and clicks on there or they ran them through aggressive "no noise" filters which saps the recordings from any sense of space. There's some occasions where they sound okay if the record was in very good condition, but this isn't always the case.


I have purchased a number of recordings from FORGOTTEN RECORDS, which offers well remastered releases of recordings taken from LPs older then 50 years, since long unavailable. They are able to reduce the surface noise of the LP without filtering the music signal too much. Their releases are CDR, but if you are nervous about the durability, you may rip them to a harddrive.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

This may sound very silly, but I actually have a full-sized cabinet Victrola from the late 1920s. (I use the lower part, which originally provided space to store records, for my stereo equipment. The upper part is still a fully-functioning Victrola, with two small doors that essentially act as volume control.) When we lose power, a not uncommon event during a bad storm, I sometimes play a few of my 78 rpm records (which I picked up specifically for the Victrola). I have a small pile of rather generic foxtrots and popular items (such as Gershwin's "I'll Build A Stairway To Paradise" from "Geo. White Scandals" with Max Terr and His Orchestra and a set of George M. Cohen songs sung by his son, George M. Cohen, Jr.) but also some classical music. The most unusual item might be "Lohengrin Selection" played by "Sousa's Band." (The record only shows patent dates, for 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1908.) The sound, as one might imagine, is pretty terrible as the Victrola is a rather crude device. (The stylus, such as it is, looks like the end of an awl, and it is hard to conceive how it produces any musical sounds at all.)

I will list some of the other records:

- Beethoven, Romance in F, with Jacques Thibaud on violin, accompanied by Harold Craxton on piano. (That takes both sides of one record. It specifically notes "recorded in Europe")

- Brahms, Symphony No. 4, with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Hermann Abendroth (that runs for 6 records)

- Several records that don't even list the orchestra, but all of which include a printed "Appreciation by Samuel Chotzinoff," who I suppose was considered more important than all participants other than the composers) (These include preludes to Die Meistersinger and Parsifal, Mozart's Syphony No. 40 in G Minor, and "A condensed version of Lohengrin." It is funny that the last one is noted as "Recorded by world-famous operatic artists and conductors," none of whom, apparently, were worth mentioning by name.) 

- Wagner-Stokowski, Das Rheingold: Excerpts performed by Leopold Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra. (In the notes, this is described as "The concert version of the music of 'Das Rheingold' as Dr. Stokowski has arranged it begins . . . ") (This runs for 3 records)

- Franck, Symphony in D Minor, Leopold Stokowski and the Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra (This one begins with a single-sided record of "outline of themes with piano" crediting only Stokowski) (The symphony itself runs for 5 records)

Oh, what our ancestors had to endure to listen to music in the home.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

JAS said:


> This may sound very silly, but I actually have a full-sized cabinet Victrola from the late 1920s. (I use the lower part, which originally provided space to store records, for my stereo equipment. The upper part is still a fully-functioning Victrola, with two small doors that essentially act as volume control.) When we lose power, a not uncommon event during a bad storm, I sometimes play a few of my 78 rpm records (which I picked up specifically for the Victrola). I have a small pile of rather generic foxtrots and popular items (such as Gershwin's "I'll Build A Stairway To Paradise" from "Geo. White Scandals" with Max Terr and His Orchestra and a set of George M. Cohen songs sung by his son, George M. Cohen, Jr.) but also some classical music. The most unusual item might be "Lohengrin Selection" played by "Sousa's Band." (The record only shows patent dates, for 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1908.) The sound, as one might imagine, is pretty terrible as the Victrola is a rather crude device. (The stylus, such as it is, looks like the end of an awl, and it is hard to conceive how it produces any musical sounds at all.)
> 
> I will list some of the other records:
> 
> ...


So it sounds like the music stop starts and stops arbitrarily on most sides of the records because of the length of he piece? Whoa, makes me appreciate what we have now. Goes to show how far people would go to enjoy music even with bad sound. This is one thing why I like recordings, I feel it is a sacred document. Live performances come and go, but contrary to what was said in another thread, I believe performers need to pour more energy into a recording, as I think the listeners are less forgiving than at a Live performance.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

JAS said:


> This may sound very silly, but I actually have a full-sized cabinet Victrola from the late 1920s. (I use the lower part, which originally provided space to store records, for my stereo equipment. The upper part is still a fully-functioning Victrola, with two small doors that essentially act as volume control.) When we lose power, a not uncommon event during a bad storm, I sometimes play a few of my 78 rpm records (which I picked up specifically for the Victrola). I have a small pile of rather generic foxtrots and popular items (such as Gershwin's "I'll Build A Stairway To Paradise" from "Geo. White Scandals" with Max Terr and His Orchestra and a set of George M. Cohen songs sung by his son, George M. Cohen, Jr.) but also some classical music. The most unusual item might be "Lohengrin Selection" played by "Sousa's Band." (The record only shows patent dates, for 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1908.) The sound, as one might imagine, is pretty terrible as the Victrola is a rather crude device. (The stylus, such as it is, looks like the end of an awl, and it is hard to conceive how it produces any musical sounds at all.)


I know these record players can be really loud so do you get complaints from your neighbours?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I know these record players can be really loud so do you get complaints from your neighbours?


We live in individual houses, with a bit of distance between us. I doubt anyone could even hear my Victrola if I wanted them to do so.

It also turns out that Samuel Chotzinoff was pretty well known as a critic in his day: http://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/11/samuel-chotzinoff-dead-at-74.html?_r=0 (Those records, then, probably date from the mid-1930s.)


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> So it sounds like the music stop starts and stops arbitrarily on most sides of the records because of the length of he piece? Whoa, makes me appreciate what we have now. Goes to show how far people would go to enjoy music even with bad sound. This is one thing why I like recordings, I feel it is a sacred document. Live performances come and go, but contrary to what was said in another thread, I believe performers need to pour more energy into a recording, as I think the listeners are less forgiving than at a Live performance.


You are applying our standards to then. In the early days of recorded music, this was state of the art. We look back and laugh at old Walkman cassette players, now that we can store a vast library of music on an instrument not much bigger than an old cassette tape. And yet, at the time, that was THE thing. That you could take music around with you wherever you wanted.

Think of what the Victrola brought to people back then - recorded music. You didn't have to live close to the great Orchestras to hear a great concert. You didn't have to be able to play a musical instrument to appreciate a work. You could actually listen to it, sitting in the comfort of your own home. That was amazing to them. And all from a sharp point touching a round disc.


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## Chatellerault (Apr 4, 2017)

I can't appreciate recordings from before the late 1940s. I'll listen just for historical curiosity.
But from about 1950 on there is a whole lot of recordings I wouldn't want to live without: Chopin by Dinu Lipatti and Guiomar Novaes; Debussy by Gieseking and Samson François; Beethoven by Furtwangler, Jochum, Richter-Haaser and Arrau; Berlioz by Bernstein; Liszt by Horowitz...

At least to my ears, from the early days of stereo until today, the changes in recorded sound quality aren't nearly as big as those from about 1930 to 1950. And what we gain in sound quality we lose in spontaneity, in an age when musicians know they're being recorded nearly 24/7, meaning they can't take risks.

French pianist Samson François (1924-1970) used to say "leave the mistakes [on record], it sounds good"


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Not really. I am a stickler for sound quality; can't stand white noise.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

For music before Haydn, I usually prefer newer recordings and performance practice. For Haydn, Wolfie and later I find much to like either old or new. Chamber groups are especially good nowadays. 

Sound quality matters of course, especially spectral range and clarity. Good remasters of old stuff can get that.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

At a very young age I was listening only to 78 rpm and mono 33 rpm vinyl. The first serious work that really hooked me was Szigeti's Brahms Violin Concerto on the 78s. But I can barely listen to mono anything these days.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

There is a certain minimum sound quality I demand for repeated listening -- but it's not excessive. For instance, two of my most played recordings are the Schnabel/Stock/CSO Beethoven Fourth Concerto, and the 1950 Toscannini Eroica. I once got an LP remastering of works performed by the Flonzaly Quartet to get a sense of performing styles earlier in the century. It was fascinating -- but two listenings were enough.


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## agoukass (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes, I have been listening to classic recordings since I was a child. Many of my favorite pianists are people like Moiseiwitsch, Hofmann, Ignaz Friedman, Rachmaninoff, Schnabel, and Cortot. While the sound may not be perfect and while some of their performances may leave something to be desired, there is a presence and a personality that I feel is lacking from many modern recordings. However, that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy Krystian Zimmerman's Ravel or Horowitz's traversal of Mozart with Giulini. I do. 

Apart from Baroque music, I haven't listened to anything after Bach or Vivaldi on period instruments. I do have a Haydn piano sonata set that was recorded on the fortepiano. It is interesting as a document, but it leaves me cold in places. If push comes to shove, I prefer my modern recordings by Hamelin, Gould, and Richter any day. 

At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to personal taste. Different people like different things. I may not care for period instruments or modern recordings, but other people do and there's really nothing more to it than that.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

I enjoy some old recordings. Mono DGG and Decca can sound great


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