# On the cusp of 'mainstream classical repertoire'



## Guest (Oct 11, 2018)

I feel like there are some composers going around today whose works I tend to associate more with the totally New Music world of groups like Ensemble InterContemporain, Ensemble MusikFabrik, Klangforum Wien, International Contemporary Ensemble etc. However, some composers who are so firmly rooted in this world seem to win over the more 'mainstream' world of radio and symphony orchestras. Unsuk Chin is an example of one of these composers.....I just thought about this a bit recently.....she seems to be a composer whose music is embraced by a more 'mainstream' group of musicians as well as the die-hard New Music groups. Over the last few years she has had a number of performances with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra (that's my local one, down here in Australia) as well as more internationally renowned orchestras like New York Philharmonic. In fact, I just saw this article today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/arts/music/unsuk-chin-new-york-philharmonic-kravis-prize.html

I wonder, do you think that it would be nice to have more composers like her in the more 'mainstream' world, sitting happily alongside giants like Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven et al? I don't think the symphony orchestra is ever the _best place_ for New Music to thrive, as concert halls and symphony orchestras have their own ritualistic performance etiquette, programming style, marketing and audience. But, to me it seems like a worthwhile thing for orchestras to programme repertoire like this to give greater awareness to audiences of the amazing music they might not get to hear all the time and potentially creating new fans.

It seems to bring the more 'experimental' 'contemporary' 'New Music' stuff to a wider audience, seemingly placing it on the cusp of the mainstream classical repertoire. What do you think?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

shirime said:


> It seems to bring the more 'experimental' 'contemporary' 'New Music' stuff to a wider audience, seemingly placing it on the cusp of the mainstream classical repertoire. What do you think?


I think you should avoid driving in your present condition.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

shirime said:


> ...Unsuk Chin is an example of one of these composers.....I just thought about this a bit recently.....she seems to be a composer whose music is embraced by a more 'mainstream' group of musicians as well as the die-hard New Music groups. Over the last few years she has had a number of performances with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra (that's my local one, down here in Australia) as well as more internationally renowned orchestras like New York Philharmonic. In fact, I just saw this article today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/arts/music/unsuk-chin-new-york-philharmonic-kravis-prize.html


This is a bit surprising. My data show zero performances of Ms. Chin's music at concerts of any of the 40+ larger American orchestras in the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons. Those orchestra include the NY Phil, where she is mentioned in the referenced article as a "favorite" of Alan Gilbert, the orchestra's last music director.

Not that I'm complaining.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2018)

KenOC said:


> This is a bit surprising. My data show zero performances of Ms. Chin's music at concerts of any of the 40+ larger American orchestras in the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons. Those orchestra include the NY Phil, where she is mentioned in the referenced article as a "favorite" of Alan Gilbert, the orchestra's last music director.
> 
> Not that I'm complaining.


There was apparently one in 2016 and also performances of her music in 2013 and 2014. Those years are what I still consider 'recent' as they are of this decade.



New York Times said:


> The bold, inventive composer Unsuk Chin has been a favorite in recent years with the New York Philharmonic, which presented the United States premiere of her "Gougalōn: Scenes From a Street Theater" in 2013, opened its 2014-15 season with her ethereal Clarinet Concerto and programmed her "Fantaisie Mécanique" at the 2016 NY Phil Biennial.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2018)

JAS said:


> I think you should avoid driving in your present condition.


What makes you say this?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

shirime said:


> There was apparently one in 2016 and also performances of her music in 2013 and 2014. Those years are what I still consider 'recent' as they are of this decade.


Mystery solved! "The Philharmonic co-presented her Fantaisie mécanique at the 2016 NY PHIL BIENNIAL, when it was performed by the Ensemble of the Lucerne Festival Alumni led by David Fulmer." So it was not performed by an American orchestra and thus not in my database.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwcl...Wins-2018-Kravis-Prize-For-New-Music-20181011


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm not sure how this could work. The experimental category or contemporary music that is on the cusp of experimental music is just too different. My guess is that the listening adjustment necessary is beyond the patience of 99% of the concert-going public. For instance, this violin concerto by Unsuk Chin: The violin is an instrument that can be pleasant to the ears or grate on the nerves depending on the circumstances. In this case, the violin spends a fair amount of time on the hi-pitched E-string which wears thin awfully quickly. I will say that it is a challenging work for the violinist. You have to be a Paganini to play it. 






Compare that to this:


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Mystery solved! "The Philharmonic co-presented her Fantaisie mécanique at the 2016 NY PHIL BIENNIAL, when it was performed by the Ensemble of the Lucerne Festival Alumni led by David Fulmer." So it was not performed by an American orchestra and thus not in my database.
> 
> https://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwcl...Wins-2018-Kravis-Prize-For-New-Music-20181011


Aha, makes sense!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveM said:


> I'm not sure how this could work. The experimental category or contemporary music that is on the cusp of experimental music is just too different. My guess is that the listening adjustment necessary is beyond the patience of 99% of the concert-going public. For instance, this violin concerto by Unsuk Chin: The violin is an instrument that can be pleasant to the ears or grate on the nerves depending on the circumstances. In this case, the violin spends a fair amount of time on the hi-pitched E-string which wears thin awfully quickly. I will say that it is a challenging work for the violinist. You have to be a Paganini to play it.


I have to differ with your estimate of the patience, or sophistication, of concert audiences. Why shouldn't an orchestra program Chin's violin concerto? Do you think it isn't any good? Or that it represents some extreme of modern music weirdness? Well, it definitely doesn't. Niggling criticisms aside, I think it fills out its 27 minutes pretty nicely with inventive textures and sonorities, subtle harmonies, delicate moods, and ample, if self-effacing, virtuosity for listeners who might need that sort of thing to keep them entertained. I can't imagine why you'd want to compare it with the Mendelssohn concerto, with which it has nothing in common except the instrument it's played on. Sure, we can always haul out acknowledged masterworks against which most new music will be found wanting in some respect or other. Personally, I've never found Mendelssohn's perfect concerto very interesting and I probably wouldn't attend a performance of it (which is also neither here nor there). Chin seems to me an exceptional contemporary composer who's worthy of the attention she receives.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

shirime said:


> What makes you say this?


I wonder too. It seems like a very stupid comment


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I have to differ with your estimate of the patience, or sophistication, of concert audiences. Why shouldn't an orchestra program Chin's violin concerto? Do you think it isn't any good? Or that it represents some extreme of modern music weirdness? Well, it definitely doesn't. Niggling criticisms aside, I think it fills out its 27 minutes pretty nicely with inventive textures and sonorities, subtle harmonies, delicate moods, and ample, if self-effacing, virtuosity for listeners who might need that sort of thing to keep them entertained. I can't imagine why you'd want to compare it with the Mendelssohn concerto, with which it has nothing in common except the instrument it's played on. Sure, we can always haul out acknowledged masterworks against which most new music will be found wanting in some respect or other. Personally, I've never found Mendelssohn's perfect concerto very interesting and I probably wouldn't attend a performance of it (which is also neither here nor there). Chin seems to me an exceptional contemporary composer who's worthy of the attention she receives.


I refer you to the OP:



shirime said:


> *
> I wonder, do you think that it would be nice to have more composers like her in the more 'mainstream' world, sitting happily alongside giants like Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven et al?* I don't think the symphony orchestra is ever the _best place_ for New Music to thrive, as concert halls and symphony orchestras have their own ritualistic performance etiquette, programming style, marketing and audience. *But, to me it seems like a worthwhile thing for orchestras to programme repertoire like this to give greater awareness to audiences of the amazing music they might not get to hear all the time and potentially creating new fans.*
> 
> It seems to bring the more 'experimental' 'contemporary' 'New Music' stuff to a wider audience, seemingly placing it on the cusp of the mainstream classical repertoire. What do you think?


My post starts off by suggesting that I don't think it would work. I simply don't think the concert-going public will accept this music side-by-side with Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven. You apparently disagree, but no need to make my post out to be something it wasn't. Btw, I'm not sure why you raised some value judgement about the Mendelssohn Concerto. I only used it as an example of how the two would sound side-by-side to the public. I could have just as easily presented the Beethoven or Brahms concertos.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2018)

DaveM, I tend to consider Boulez's much admired Rug Concerts with NYPO as an example of successful, adventurous and highly contrasting programming of old and new works. I do admit, however, that the Rug Concerts were also not typical 'concert hall' concerts with famous soloists and repertoire due to the type of venue and seating arrangements used.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

shirime said:


> What makes you say this?


The only explanation that occurs to me for your post is severe intoxication under the influence of drugs or alcohol. (I am, perhaps, unfairly ignoring the possibility of more chronic mental issues.) I am, of course, being somewhat flip, intentionally adopting a humorous tone, but, really, the idea that Chin's music is "mainstream" in any meaningful sense is sheer madness, or extremely subtle satire.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2018)

JAS said:


> The only explanation that occurs to me for your post is severe intoxication under the influence of drugs or alcohol. (I am, perhaps, unfairly ignoring the possibility of more chronic mental issues.) I am, of course, being somewhat flip, intentionally adopting a humorous tone, but, really, the idea that Chin's music is "mainstream" in any meaningful sense is sheer madness, or extremely subtle satire.


No, I mentioned that Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven are 'mainstream' in the orchestral repertoire. Programming Chin alongside those composes places her music in a more mainstream context. As I put it in the OP, it's _seemingly placing it on the cusp of mainstream classical repertoire._

I haven't consumed alcohol since February and I certainly don't abuse any substances in the way you are joking about. However, it's nice to read your thoughts on the topic of thread. Sorry that I'm not really a 'humorous' kind of person on the forum, I understand that others might totally love jokes and banter, but probably not the punching-down sort in your initial comment. Apologies for not getting it.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

shirime said:


> No, I mentioned that Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven are 'mainstream' in the orchestral repertoire. Programming Chin alongside those composes places her music in a more mainstream context. As I put it in the OP, it's _seemingly placing it on the cusp of mainstream classical repertoire._


A certain concert killer. It is precisely the opposite of what should happen. If this modern music is to find an audience, it needs to do so on its own. Putting it next to actual mainstream works just draws attentions to its flaws, and irritates what audience remains for more traditional works.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Yes, I think Chin could easily win a wider audience if programmed alongside the standard repertoire. Another one is Saariaho. The Met did _L'Amour de Loin_ in 2016, which I unfortunately missed, but I think it was reasonably well received.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Programming a work such as Chin's along with more traditional offerings is the way to proceed; I'd recommend that the Chin be first on the program.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> Programming a work such as Chin's along with more traditional offerings is the way to proceed; I'd recommend that the Chin be first on the program.


Me too, so I can leave before the Tchaikovsky!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> Me too, so I can leave before the Tchaikovsky!


Interesting. Sounds like you also agree that the these works can't coincide in the same program, but for the reasoning on the opposite side.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I would love to see some new music alongside the famous old composers! I checked out some orchestras programs (Oslo, Berlin, Amsterdam, Hamburg) and was a bit surprised and a bit disappointed that it's not very usual. There was only really famous modernists this occurred with, Lutoslawski, Schnittke, Gubaidulina (++) and they are old (or dead). What was a bit usual were some early 20th century composers alongside the classics (Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Respighi, Martinu). I don't often go to orchestra concerts, but when I do, I want something new and will pick something I find interesting.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

DaveM said:


> Interesting. Sounds like you also agree that the these works can't coincide in the same program, but for the reasoning on the opposite side.


No, I just don't like Tchaikovsky.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> No, I just don't like Tchaikovsky.


I have no doubt that he would return the sentiment, in spades (Queen of Spades).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> Programming a work such as Chin's along with more traditional offerings is the way to proceed; I'd recommend that the Chin be first on the program.


If they programmed the Chin first, the audience might think it was just the orchestra tuning up.

Humor aside, I think we need to consider the formal elements of the music, instead of characterizing it vaguely as "less difficult" or "more accessible" than other modernist works.

After listening to the first few minutes of it, it seems to be harmonically-oriented music, the way it is almost monotone, and people can always relate to that, because it is similar to a drone, and "centers" them. It is not excessively chromatic, and seems to evoke feelings of introspection rather than "restless modernist anxiety." Maybe this is due to oriental influence.

At the end, it even seems to return to the "home key" that it was in at the beginning. There seems to be a kind of "scherzo" later on. The whole approach seems to me to be in terms of "sympathetic forms" which classical listeners can relate to in terms of evocative moods; after all, it is a violin concerto, and sounds like one. There are recognizably tonal chord structures, some of which could even be "named" in traditional jazz terms.

If the piece is not tonal in the old sense, it does seem very tone-centric. The orchestration is flattering to everything, as well as the forms and contrasts.

In fact, what is so "modern" about this? It seems pretty tame to me, although interesting. I'm surprised to hear any criticism of it, after what critics say about hard-core serialism. This seems like "left-brain" music for unwinding after a stressful day's work, or even something to be enjoyed in the evenings with a glass of wine.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

DaveM said:


> Compare that to this:


Sorry. Can't hear any difference.

I'll listen again, later ... give it another go.

Meanwhile, I just today in the mail received the 2018-19 Concert Season flier from the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. I looked for contemporary music, and there isn't a lot.

Of the 17 concerts catalogued, one features "Wu Xing" or "The Five Elements" by Qigang Chen (from 1999) on a program that presents also Dvorak's Ninth Symphony and Rachmaninoff's First Piano Concerto.






Near the end of the season a world premier PSO commission by Jonathan Leshnoff, his Double Concerto for Clarinet & Bassoon is programed with the Beethoven Ninth, but I don't expect the Leshnoff piece to "shock". Leshnoff is described by one source as "a leader of contemporary American lyricism".

Two less familiar "modern" pieces are scheduled: one by Raitio ("Moonlight on Jupiter"), a composer of the 1920's, on the season's opening program along with a Mozart Horn Concerto and Holst's "The Planets"; and the other is Boris Blacher's Orchestra Variations on a Theme by Paganini, on a program coupling Brahms Haydn Variations and Tchaikovsky's Fifth. Not much action for contemporary music fans in Pittsburgh this year. (Other 20th century pieces features include concerti by Rachmaninoff, Korngold, and Prokofiev, but this is hardly "contemporary" or "experimental" anymore.)

Fortunately, the Donaueschinger Musiktage is set to open October 18 and continue till the 21st, 2018, and it promises to provide composers who "explore social, technical and social developments" and that "robots and filter bubbles, media archaeology and public violence all play a role here." Unfortunately, we all can't make it out to the German town this year. Alas ....

https://www.swr.de/donaueschingen

You'll find a program listing at the above link. Enjoy.

Meanwhile, I'll dig out my collection of col legno and NEOS Donaueschinger Musiktage discs and listen to them again.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DaveM said:


> I'm not sure how this could work. The experimental category or contemporary music that is on the cusp of experimental music is just too different. My guess is that the listening adjustment necessary is beyond the patience of 99% of the concert-going public. For instance, this violin concerto by Unsuk Chin: The violin is an instrument that can be pleasant to the ears or grate on the nerves depending on the circumstances. In this case, the violin spends a fair amount of time on the hi-pitched E-string which wears thin awfully quickly. I will say that it is a challenging work for the violinist. You have to be a Paganini to play it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chin has the advantage. I never want to listen to the Mendelssohn.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> Sorry. Can't hear any difference. I'll listen again, later ... give it another go.





Woodduck said:


> ...I can't imagine why you'd want to compare it [Unsuk Chin] with the Mendelssohn concerto, with which it has nothing in common except the instrument it's played on.


Who to believe?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Who to believe?


I believe Woodduck - don't you?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> I believe Woodduck - don't you?


I believe Woodduck 93.728% of the time.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DaveM said:


> I believe Woodduck 93.728% of the time.


I have to admire precision.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Having just listened to the Chin concerto (slow afternoon at work), I'll say in all sincerity that I think it would be a bigger hit with an average classical music audience than the Mendelssohn.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveM said:


> I believe Woodduck 93.728% of the time.


Flattery will get you a free birthday coupon for dinner at the Hometown Buffet in Medford, Oregon. I just got one in my email and don't plan to use it, so I'd be happy to forward it. If you can up that percentage a little, there may be other treats in store.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

94
.....................................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

janxharris said:


> 94
> .....................................


:kiss: .....................


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2018)

You guys......... :lol: :lol::lol:


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2018)

I have another question, related to the thread, about music which could be 'on the cusp of mainstream classical repertoire' but probably not so famous enough to gets bums on seats. The question is: what about the more obscure composers of the 18th and 19th centuries? Programming a symphony by Arriaga or a symphonic poem by Holmès won't really be something that attracts audiences like a Beethoven symphony or a Strauss tone poem would, despite both composers being contemporary with each of them respectively, and basically composing in the same idiom. These works would fit the mould of an orchestral concert hall experience for sure, they'd be easily programmable and within a familiar musical language, but would they have the same kind of impact that the 'mainstream' repertoire would? Would it be a good idea to programme them to shed more light on other composers from those eras?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

shirime said:


> I have another question, related to the thread, about music which could be 'on the cusp of mainstream classical repertoire' but probably not so famous enough to gets bums on seats. The question is: what about the more obscure composers of the 18th and 19th centuries? Programming a symphony by Arriaga or a symphonic poem by Holmès won't really be something that attracts audiences like a Beethoven symphony or a Strauss tone poem would, despite both composers being contemporary with each of them respectively, and basically composing in the same idiom. These works would fit the mould of an orchestral concert hall experience for sure, they'd be easily programmable and within a familiar musical language, but would they have the same kind of impact that the 'mainstream' repertoire would? Would it be a good idea to programme them to shed more light on other composers from those eras?


An interesting question. Speaking only for myself, my bum gets onto that seat only if the performance is of something I want to hear or am intensely interested in hearing/seeing live. I'm not anxious to be educated at concerts when I can do plenty of that on my own time, and I imagine many other concertgoers feel the same.

Arriaga's sole symphony wouldn't attract me because it's really only "pretty good" and I'm happy to hear it on the stereo. It wouldn't repel me either, unlike certain other works that might get my bum off of that seat pretty quickly. Holmes I might be curious about since the only other fellow of that name I know of is the Brit with the funny hat. But I'd check YouTube first!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> Having just listened to the Chin concerto (slow afternoon at work), I'll say in all sincerity that I think it would be a bigger hit with an average classical music audience than the Mendelssohn.


No, no . . . just NO.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2018)

JAS said:


> No, no . . . just NO.


Nono?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

shirime said:


> I have another question, related to the thread, about music which could be 'on the cusp of mainstream classical repertoire' but probably not so famous enough to gets bums on seats. . . .


While I think that including more obscure works along with the "big" pieces is a good idea, as long as they are compatible, I don't think it would really help much in getting people to buy tickets. Many of the pieces that aren't warhorses are perfectly decent works, pleasant and diverting, perhaps even moving, but there is often a reason that they never made warhorse status. (There is no reason that an audience would not really enjoy a spirited performance of one of Kalinnikov's symphonies, but there probably needs to be a well-known Tchaikovsky symphony on the same bill.) I would think that shorter works would probably be safer than programming a much longer work, unless one has stumbled across a real missing treasure. Like KenOC, I think CDs are the better option for advocating more obscure works or composers.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

JAS said:


> ...I think CDs are the better option for advocating more obscure works or composers.


I think there are some people who want "their" music programmed at concerts because there's a captive audience that really can't escape easily. And certainly, when those people hear the glories of that music, they'll be converted and see the light, and they'll fall on their knees shouting _Hallelujah_!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> . . . . and they'll fall on their knees shouting _Hallelujah_!


or beg to be let out. (I do often wonder how many of the people actively advocating stuffing more modern works on concerts are composers desperately hoping for some audience. I suppose I am a little sympathetic, but I know that I resented having to sit through a Christopher Rouse symphony to hear one or two pieces that I actually enjoyed, precisely because they shared no characteristics with the Rouse, which was hardly rousing.)


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I think that it could be successful with some innovative programming. For instance, set up one of the season schedules to include perhaps on two occasions a 'rare rediscovered symphony' from the period of Brahms (or whatever), then consider something like the Schmidt #1, the Rott or Svenden symphonies. I think general classical music audiences would love it. IMO, there are at least a dozen symphonies from that period, not too mention a fair number of piano & violin concertos that are of the highest quality.

Who could leave a concert without warm fuzzies after hearing this:






Or this:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

shirime said:


> Nono?


No, no Luigi either.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2018)

JAS said:


> No, no Luigi either.


What about Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

shirime said:


> What about Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco?


What is the question?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2018)

JAS said:


> What is the question?


Just a joke referencing characters from that Nintendo game.

But more seriously, Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco is a composer whose music I personally enjoy a lot and probably would be nice to see in live orchestral concerts. Typically his [guitar] music seems to be performed more in guitar recitals. He seems to be someone whose name is at least vaguely known by many classical fans, but not performed so much.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't mind the lyricism of the Chin piece, but into it 8 minutes, I fear this is a piece where I don't like how it resolves. Compare it to Bolcom's Violin Concerto which does have a fairly mainstream acceptance and you can see he has both the modern lyricism and the tried and true sense of resolution, of the piece going somewhere. I will have to listen to the Chin piece a few times to figure out if I like it or not. Otherwise, it's a bunch of beautiful things threaded together but no real story.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is an interesting example of concert programming juxtaposition, and one that I think works quite well...


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