# Chromatacism



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

What composer or composers incorporated chromaticism into their works with much ingenuity? It can be all to easy to sling a chromatic flourish into a piece to make is showy but when chromaticism is done well it can be a very effective tool for the composer or discoverer. Chopin's Nocturnes spring to mind where he uses is not just melodically buy harmonically, too. Also, that short passage in Beethoven's piano sonata op 2 no 2 in A major 4th movement where he uses chromaticism to great effect. And of course JS Bach's Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Wagner. Rather gloriously too. His chromatic harmony is layers deep.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Whatever works. The Eroica was derided for being too chromatic.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MarkW said:


> Whatever works. The Eroica was derided for being too chromatic.


It was? Can't say I recall that, but if you remember the source I'd be interested in checking it out.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Max Reger, who died in 1916, was constantly modulating and sometimes considered highly avant garde at the time. In my opinion, he was the consummate chromaticist and Schoenberg was well familiar with him. After his chromaticism there was no place to go but to the dissolution of tonality. He was also highly influenced by Bach, Schubert, and Brahms, and rarely played today but important in early 20th-century music. I find him hard to listen to because he meanders chromatically so much, always modulating, always moving in so many of his works. I get a little seasick not knowing where Home is, and his meandering modulations can sometimes sound formless. Nevertheless, he was an accomplished musician and had big ideas. He loved writing fugues, and Paul Hindemith thought highly of him.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Inspired by Vicentino's and Cipriano de Rore's chromatic works, Orlando de Lasso's approach to chromaticism, unlike Vicentino's and Gesualdo's, set the standard for succeeding generations, including the Gabrielis and Monteverdi. Very expressive examples are found in Lasso's motets, 'Prophetiae Sibyllarum' (written between 1555 and 1560). Though the chromaticism reaches the density of Gesualdo's at times, it serves a different purpose: to highlight the ancient, secret, unusual, and mysterious effect of the poetic texts. It has been suggested that by rendering the Sibylline prophecies in chromatic style, Lasso was implying that chromaticism was the music of the future. It is, however, clearly a product of its time.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Spohr is so rich in dissonances; pleasure in his music is marred by his chromatic melody." --Beethoven

What did he mean by that? Maybe nobody knows.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Ken, this is Charles Rosen’s informed take on Beethoven’s “crushing verdict on Spohr”:

“What was ‘dissonant’ in Spohr to Beethoven’s ear was evidently a new chromaticism, left insufficiently integrated within a diatonic framework; and it was just this kind of chromaticism which became so essential a part of the music of the 1830s. There are moments when Beethoven is as chromatic as any composer before late Wagner, including Chopin, but the chromaticism is always resolved and blended into a background which ends by leaving the tonic triad absolute master.”


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks Rick! ......................................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

beetzart said:


> What composer or composers incorporated chromaticism into their works with much ingenuity? It can be all to easy to sling a chromatic flourish into a piece to make is showy but when chromaticism is done well it can be a very effective tool for the composer or discoverer. Chopin's Nocturnes spring to mind where he uses is not just melodically buy harmonically, too. Also, that short passage in Beethoven's piano sonata op 2 no 2 in A major 4th movement where he uses chromaticism to great effect. And of course JS Bach's Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue.


Up to the mid-19th century we can think of composers "incorporating" chromaticism into what was basically diatonic harmony. The Italian madrigalists, Monteverdi, Purcell, Bach, Mozart, Schubert, Weber, Chopin, Berlioz - all did striking, poignant things with the ambiguities and surprises chromaticism made possible. Chromaticism was an expressive device, the more effective when it was used in a clear diatonic context as an excursion away from, and back to, a clear tonal foundation.

Wagner, driven by the imperative of expressing unprecedented states of mind and emotion in his stage works, was the first to show that the proportion between diatonicism and chromaticism could be flipped. In the harmony of _Tristan und isolde,_ it could almost be said that he was incorporating diatonicism into a harmonic style that had become predominantly chromatic. Diatonic progressions still marked his big structural junctures, though, showing that chromaticism was still functioning as a specific expressive language and not as a baseline or norm, and Wagner's chromaticism is to be felt in the context of tonal tensions familiar from earlier music even when carried to extremes of suspension and ambiguity. I like to think that Wagner's chromaticism proves (in both senses of the word) the strength of tonality. He maintained a balance, however tense at times; the harmonic storms always passed, and the ship was always righted in the end.

In Wagner's successors the balance was often more precarious, and composers who wanted to push chromaticism to the limit no longer concerned themselves with righting the ship of tonality. I think it's debatable whether "chromaticism" is a concept that even applies at that point. If all is chromatic, then perhaps nothing is.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Arnold Bax and Franz Schmidt both pushed chromaticism to the extremes. In Bax's case, it becomes disorienting; you almost feel seasick. Wilhelm Furtwangler displays a remarkable ability to color his music with highly chromatic writing, but the results are sometimes less than memorable. Scriabin was the first Russian to really push the envelope.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

it became quite commonplace in 20th Century, but Bartok was a leading innovator.

Despite the weird timbres this was just one of many examples by Schnittke


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

KenOC said:


> It was? Can't say I recall that, but if you remember the source I'd be interested in checking it out.


The C# in m. 7 of the first movement is one of the most infamous harmonic feints in music. It's a fleeting moment, but the fact that it appears in an intro that is otherwise almost comically tame in its harmony, does make it a bit of a shock. It's like a foreshadowing of the extremely strange harmonic territory that the movement will wind up going.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2018)

Eschbeg said:


> The C# in m. 7 of the first movement is one of the most infamous harmonic feints in music. It's a fleeting moment, but the fact that it appears in an intro that is otherwise almost comically tame in its harmony, does make it a bit of a shock. It's like a foreshadowing of the extremely strange harmonic territory that the movement will wind up going.


...and to these (conservative) ears, sounds no more startling or strange than the song of the blackbird. Whatever might have upset the tender ears of Beethoven's contemporary critics, it's not noticeable now except to the musical intelligentsia.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Probably. It's a shame, really. A sketchbook of Beethoven's that was discovered only in the 1960s shows how much of the symphony, not just the first movement, was built around that C#. The sketchbook shows some basic harmonic outlines of all four movements, starting with the last one and moving backwards, which suggests that Beethoven conceived of the finale first and then conceived of the prior movements as a build-up to the finale. All of these sketches prominently use the C#, which itself suggests that the C# in the opening measures of the first movement was part of some serious long-range scheme on Beethoven's part.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Eschbeg said:


> Probably. It's a shame, really. A sketchbook of Beethoven's that was discovered only in the 1960s shows how much of the symphony, not just the first movement, was built around that C#. The sketchbook shows some basic harmonic outlines of all four movements, starting with the last one and moving backwards, which suggests that Beethoven conceived of the finale first and then conceived of the prior movements as a build-up to the finale. All of these sketches prominently use the C#, which itself suggests that the C# in the opening measures of the first movement was part of some serious long-range scheme on Beethoven's part.


I think the arguments about the C# are overblown and insubstantial. They were fastened on by theorists with the standard harmonocentric bias of that age and they overshadow what was actually interesting about the Eroica's opening theme.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Perhaps. Large-scale harmonic schemes tend not to be my preferred way of listening to Beethoven either, but there is the odd work where I do find it compelling, and this is one of them. (The Ninth and the _Missa solemnis_ are also on this list.) So I don't mind giving theorists a pass on this one. My favorite moment in this symphony is the passage in E-minor in the first movement development, and the harmonocentric view is as a good a way as any I've seen to get at it.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Phil loves classical said:


> it became quite commonplace in 20th Century, but Bartok was a leading innovator.
> 
> Despite the weird timbres this was just one of many examples by Schnittke


That is an incredible piece of music, thank you for posting it. Can you recommend any more pieces by Schnittke, please?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Eschbeg said:


> Perhaps. Large-scale harmonic schemes tend not to be my preferred way of listening to Beethoven either, but there is the odd work where I do find it compelling, and this is one of them. (The Ninth and the _Missa solemnis_ are also on this list.) So I don't mind giving theorists a pass on this one. My favorite moment in this symphony is the passage in E-minor in the first movement development, and the harmonocentric view is as a good a way as any I've seen to get at it.


I prefer to get at the E minor passage by thematic processes, as the culmination of playing out the opposition in the principal theme between the opening phrases (P) and the contrasting section on the dominant with duple accents (X). Before the "new theme," X rages for many measures, moving through a circle of fifths to that harrowing N6/5 of E minor. The consequence of X's ascendancy is the E minor theme, interpreted by many as a negative image of P. But however one gets there it is a remarkable passage!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> That is an incredible piece of music, thank you for posting it. Can you recommend any more pieces by Schnittke, please?


The only pieces I like by Schnittke are the Piano Quintet and Concerto for Piano and Strings.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

beetzart said:


> That is an incredible piece of music, thank you for posting it. Can you recommend any more pieces by Schnittke, please?


All six of the Concerto Grossos are marvelous, as is the Viola Concerto.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> I prefer to get at the E minor passage by thematic processes, as the culmination of playing out the opposition in the principal theme between the opening phrases (P) and the contrasting section on the dominant with duple accents (X). Before the "new theme," X rages for many measures, moving through a circle of fifths to that harrowing N6/5 of E minor. The consequence of X's ascendancy is the E minor theme, interpreted by many as a negative image of P. But however one gets there it is a remarkable passage!


Ah, so there is some merit in Zjovicic's forumula for calculating merit after all!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Ah, so there is some merit in Zjovicic's forumula for calculating merit after all!


Huh? I read Z's method but don't see the connection.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Huh? I read Z's method but don't see the connection.


Don't fret Edward...just an (E) minor quip in response to your use of P and X in your analysis.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

WIK: As tonality began to expand during the last half of the nineteenth century, with new combinations of chords, keys and harmonies being tried, the chromatic scale and chromaticism became more widely used. Increased chromaticism is often cited as one of the main causes or signs of the "break down" of tonality. As tonal harmony continued to widen and even break down, the chromatic scale became the basis of modern music written using the twelve-tone technique, a tone row being a specific ordering or series of the chromatic scale, and later serialism.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Wagner definitely comes to mind. I'm no huge fan of his, but Tristan und Isolde is one of the great masterpieces of the art of chromaticism. So much tension and release. Outside of him, I've been greatly enjoying Bach's chromatic fantasy and fugue. As for later composers, Bartók's string quartets are beautifully and heavily chromatic.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

In response to whether Richard Wagner's music was really "chromatic" or not:

I find Walter Piston's view of (in C major) the seventh degree as either melodic (VII-I) or harmonic (V-I) as very revealing;

"The seventh degree, leading-tone, for all its importance a an indicator of the tonic through its melodic tendency, _has not been treated as a basic structural factor in tonality._ It remains a significant _melodic _tone, common to both modes. _It is seldom regarded as a generator of harmony, but is usually absorbed into the dominant chord._ The progression, leading-tone to tonic, may be described as melodically VII-I and harmonically V-I."

"It follows that _the tonal structure of music consists mainly of harmonies with tonal degrees as roots (I,IV,V, and II), with the modal degree chords (III and VI) used for variety."_ -Walter Piston, Harmony, p. 33-34

So if VII can't be used as a tonic root, as a generator of harmony, it reinforces the view of B-D-F-A as in incomplete dominant ninth with its (assumed) root on G.

For me, this brings in to question whether _any _diminished seventh chord can be considered as a tonic-root generator of tonality, unless it is assumed to be an incomplete V7 or dominant ninth chord.

This idea brings into question any notion of Wagner being "chromatic" in any real sense of the word.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I think this is what finally won me over about Strauss. Chromaticism makes Salome seem like Rossini overdosing on Red Bull.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> In response to whether Richard Wagner's music was really "chromatic" or not:
> 
> I find Walter Piston's view of (in C major) the seventh degree as either melodic (VII-I) or harmonic (V-I) as very revealing;
> 
> ...


The idea of questioning whether Wagner's music is "chromatic in any real sense of the word" (as opposed to some unreal sense?) sounds like complete nonsense. Why isn't it? What "real sense" do you have in mind?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

As Piston said above, the vii degree can only be considered as a leading tone (VII-I) or as a harmonic component of V-I. This makes the analysis of the Tristan chord as either the result of counterpoint (voice movement) or as a simple V-I. In either case, the diminished seventh note in question would have to be interpreted harmonically as a vii of some key, which means an incomplete dominant ninth (V) of that key. That's diatonic modulation, not chromaticism, since no real tonic can be generated from any note of a diminished seventh "chord." Otherwise, it's just counterpoint.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> As Piston said above, the vii degree can only be considered as a leading tone (VII-I) or as a harmonic component of V-I. This makes the analysis of the Tristan chord as either the result of counterpoint (voice movement) or as a simple V-I. In either case, the diminished seventh note in question would have to be interpreted harmonically as a vii of some key, which means an incomplete dominant ninth (V) of that key. That's diatonic modulation, not chromaticism, since no real tonic can be generated from any note of a diminished seventh "chord." Otherwise, it's just counterpoint.


So you're pitting your idea of Walter Piston's idea against the world, which hears Wagner as a master of chromaticism? You're lost in the weeds of theory. I think you need to get your head out of the books and listen.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Oh, I'm sure that all roads in Wagner lead back to diatonic tonality. Haven't you been saying that same thing? A "chromaticism" which only exists in the context of diatonic tonality is not "true chromaticism" for me, even if that is the dictionary definition.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

These conflicts between diatonicism and chromaticism and extended diatonicism etc seem somewhat artificial to me and defined more by pedagogy than musical relationships. Until Schoenberg restored symmetry to all 12 tones composers were trying to "extend" from diatonicism. They are still unable to avoid it completely IMO without resorting to exotic math techniques. Just my idiot opinion.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, I'm sure that all roads in Wagner lead back to diatonic tonality. Haven't you been saying that same thing? A "chromaticism" which only exists in the context of diatonic tonality is not "true chromaticism" for me, even if that is the dictionary definition.


Wagner's ultimately diatonic structure hardly negates the chromatic features of Tristan.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Wagner's ultimately diatonic structure hardly negates the chromatic features of Tristan.


Precisely. In fact, chromaticism is the the most obvious "feature" of Tristan. Millionrainbows knows this. God only know what he's up to.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, I'm sure that all roads in Wagner lead back to diatonic tonality. Haven't you been saying that same thing? A "chromaticism" which only exists in the context of diatonic tonality is not "true chromaticism" for me, even if that is the dictionary definition.


Who cares what "true chromaticism" is _for you?_ All sorts of things are undoubtedly true _for you._ I'm sure Walter Piston would prefer not to know what they are.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

"lost in the weeds of theory" seems better than exploring no theory at all. But I could be wrong about that too.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

philoctetes said:


> "lost in the weeds of theory" seems better than exploring no theory at all. But I could be wrong about that too.


Wouldn't it be best to get "unlost" with a better theory?

Chromaticism was originally defined, in the context of diatonic harmony, as the use of the pitches between the notes of the scale for either melodic or harmonic purposes. Outside the context of a scale-based tonality, there's no such thing as a pitch between scale notes. Therefore, if we're going to talk about what's "true" and what isn't, it really makes more sense to say that music that eschews diatonic relationships altogether - so-called "total chromaticism" of the Schoenberg sort - is not "true chromaticism." I won't insist on that, since I don't object to the term being relaxed a little to accommodate a later development, but trying to cut it off from its original meaning is certainly gratuitous and confusing.

I don't know why million wants to turn things upside down. So far he ain't a-sayin.'


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Wik: In music theory, a scale is any set of musical notes *ordered by fundamental frequency or pitch.* A scale ordered by increasing pitch is an ascending scale, and a scale ordered by decreasing pitch is a descending scale.

A specific scale is defined by its characteristic interval pattern *and by a special note, known as its first degree (or tonic). The tonic of a scale is the note selected as the beginning of the octave,* and therefore as the beginning of the adopted interval pattern. Typically, the name of the scale specifies both its tonic and its interval pattern. For example, C major indicates a major scale with a C tonic.

Well, how do you derive a scale? How is a scale made? 
If you begin with the Pythagoran method, to whom we owe the 12-division of the octave, and begin on a note, say F, and start generating fifths, or almost perfect fifths, we get F-C-G-D-A-E-B. That creates all 7 notes of our diatonic scale. If you keep going, you eventually get all 12 notes: F-C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#-G#-D#-A#. That's true chromaticism; stacked fifths, because there's a "harmonic truth" to it.

Anything other than this is flawed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Wik: In music theory, a scale is any set of musical notes *ordered by fundamental frequency or pitch.* A scale ordered by increasing pitch is an ascending scale, and a scale ordered by decreasing pitch is a descending scale.
> 
> A specific scale is defined by its characteristic interval pattern *and by a special note, known as its first degree (or tonic). The tonic of a scale is the note selected as the beginning of the octave,* and therefore as the beginning of the adopted interval pattern. Typically, the name of the scale specifies both its tonic and its interval pattern. For example, C major indicates a major scale with a C tonic.
> 
> ...


Ugh.

Cite some "truly chromatic" music, please.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Has anyone mentioned the cunning mysteries of the tritone yet?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

You cite a "truly tonal scale" first. Then we can proceed to chromatic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> You cite a "truly tonal scale" first. Then we can proceed to chromatic.


"Truly tonal scale" is your little conceit. Don't ask me to defend it.

Can you come up anything that makes more sense than your bizarre de-definition of chromaticism above?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Has anyone mentioned the cunning mysteries of the tritone yet?


All we know is that if you give the tritone so much as the time of day, it will take down all of Western music before you can say "Arnie Prettyhill."


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'll be honest with you, I fear the tritones. All the dark secrets of music reside there waiting to swallow up tonality and vomit out a chromatic evil such as the world has never seen.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Chromaticism

Sounds cool, especially if you want to sound like a real connaisseur of classical music AND undoubtedly it's subject of many music-theorists. 

But

Do we really think any composer gave any thought about how much chromaticism he should flavor his music with??

Did Liszt think: hmmm, I think I should sprinkle some more chromaticism over that Faust Symphony...

Did Debussy think: AH!! let's spice this chanson up with some more chromaticism.....

maybe they did...... :lol:


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

It's funny because I was listening to some music today (I wont mention the composer) and I was thinking WELL: any note that is just incorporated as a well thought chromatic note is just as boring as any other NON chromatic note that replaces it. 

SO

No true music without true geniuses where no music theorist ever will get any grip upon :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'll be honest with you, I fear the tritones. All the dark secrets of music reside there waiting to swallow up tonality and vomit out a chromatic evil such as the world has never seen.


Indeed. It will be destruction on a major scale.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An odd comment from Beethoven, 1824: "Spohr is so rich in dissonances; pleasure in his music is marred by his chromatic melody."


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Indeed. It will be destruction on a major scale.


Or a minor mishap?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> An odd comment from Beethoven, 1824: "Spohr is so rich in dissonances; pleasure in his music is marred by his chromatic melody."


Perhaps because chromaticism has been known to create tonal uncertainty or ambiguity and the listener may never exactly know where it's going to lead or return to home base. I think the variety of Spohr's chromaticism is more easily understood today than during Beethoven's era. Most composers, even Beethoven, think their way is the only way and they're rarely complimentary of other composers.






The composer perhaps the most chromatic has to be Max Reger, who seemed to meander in it until the point was lost. I get seasick just thinking about it.  I don't think Beethoven would have cared for him at all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> An odd comment from Beethoven, 1824: "Spohr is so rich in dissonances; pleasure in his music is marred by his chromatic melody."


I'd speculate that it was his severe sense of formal clarity - an abhorrence of the unintegrated, the unbalanced and the unreconciled - that made Beethoven leery of the new trend toward sprinkling harmonic complexities and ambiguities over the surface of music in what he felt was a structurally pointless manner. For him chromaticism was an effect to keep in reserve for moments that required it, moments where the expressive trajectory of the musical narrative had to deviate from the straight or expected path. Harmonically, Beethoven plows the field; he doesn't stop to smell the roses.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Perhaps because chromaticism has been known to create tonal uncertainty or ambiguity because the listener may never exactly know where it's going to lead or return to home base.


Spohr's Classic/Romantic style is pretty tame in that respect, but I think Beethoven sensed the dangers. I wonder if he made any comparable remarks about Weber?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Spohr's Classic/Romantic style is pretty tame in that respect, but I think Beethoven sensed the dangers. I wonder if he made any comparable remarks about Weber?


Here are some remarks about Weber, from Beethoven.

"The little man, otherwise so gentle -- I never would have credited him with such a thing. Now Weber must write operas in earnest, one after the other, without caring too much for refinement! Kaspar, the monster, looms up like a house; wherever the devil sticks in his claw we feel it." (1823, on Der Freischütz)

"K. M. Weber began to learn too late; art did not have a chance to develop naturally in him, and his single and obvious striving is to appear brilliant." (About the same time)

"_Euryanthe_ is an accumulation of diminished seventh chords -- all little backdoors!" (Remarked to Schindler)


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

A diminished seventh chord is never defined harmonically until it resolves.

I think "chromaticism" is being mistaken with diminished seventh chords. Chromatic notes outside the scale, which create roots of chords, help establish tonality, albeit in a different key perhaps. In other words, chromaticism is seen in the context of tonality, and must contribute to this sense.

But diminished sevenths cannot create a root station. Therefore, they must be considered as non-harmonic elements which are the result of melodic movement, or as incomplete V chords.

The elements of chromaticism are:


mode mixture
leading tones
tonicization of each chromatic step and other secondary key areas
modulatory space
the use of non-tonal chords as tonic "keys"/"scales"/"areas" such as the Tristan chord

...but these latter "keys"/"scales"/"areas" are non-tonal; they do not create a tonal station. They are just "areas of sound" which do not contribute a sense of tonality or rootedness, because they are incapable of it. Only by creating a context, by resolving, can they have any tonal meaning. So diminished sevenths are like a "virus;" they are not "alive" tonally, but require a "host."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Here are some remarks about Weber, from Beethoven.
> 
> "The little man, otherwise so gentle -- I never would have credited him with such a thing. Now Weber must write operas in earnest, one after the other, without caring too much for refinement! Kaspar, the monster, looms up like a house; wherever the devil sticks in his claw we feel it." (1823)
> 
> ...


I love that last one. What if Beethoven had lived to hear Wagner? Revolving doors, maybe?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> A diminished seventh chord is never defined harmonically until it resolves.


My inner ear suggests that an unresolved dim7 may be definable by what precedes it (in other words, I have no examples at hand, but I can imagine some).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"My inner ear suggests that an unresolved dim7 may be definable by what precedes it (in other words, I have no examples at hand, but I can imagine some)."

And then, right after that, it could be defined differently.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> "My inner ear suggests that an unresolved dim7 may be definable by what precedes it (in other words, I have no examples at hand, but I can imagine some)."
> 
> And then, right after that, it could be defined differently.


Agreed. Context is the essential thing, and that may involve what comes before, what comes after, or both.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Here are some remarks about Weber, from Beethoven.
> 
> "The little man, otherwise so gentle -- I never would have credited him with such a thing. Now Weber must write operas in earnest, one after the other, without caring too much for refinement! Kaspar, the monster, looms up like a house; wherever the devil sticks in his claw we feel it." (1823, on Der Freischütz)
> 
> ...


Where did you find these remarks?


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