# Warhorse guilt



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

The eternal problem that affects all classical listeners, no matter their tastes, listening habits, or background is simple: There are not enough hours in the day, and too much music to listen to. 

Because of this, I've sometimes felt legitimately guilty about putting on a piece I know I love, like Berlioz or Reich, rather than explore. This is especially the case when I've found composers off the beaten warhorse path that I legitimately treasure from exploring - Saygun, Rzewski, Schnittke, Feldman.

Does anyone else ever feel "guilt" about putting on Beethoven 7 again rather than looking elsewhere? If so, how do you deal with it? Do you simply say that music is for pleasure, and putting on a piece that deeply affects you is a worthy use of time? 

Personally I've sometimes split my time between exploring and "pleasurable" listening, but this can have the unfortunate effect of making exploration seem like homework - the old cliché about music (especially modern music) being vegetables that you listen to because they're good for you.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I marked _never_, as I don't feel guilty about listening to any work I enjoy; I would feel guilty about not listening to what gives me pleasure just because that may not be fashionable. Besides, I'm not always in the mood to explore new works - at some moments, listening to some well-known masterpiece is all I need.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Hey! When the battle finally reaches your stable door, which ride will you choose to meet it on? Right! And you'll be thankful for that ol' warhorse, with his full throttle of experienced reliability and comfortable familiarity.

Just hope the fellow you're facing selected the newbie pony ride. If so, you'll sit reassured in a well-worn saddle on a fine quad of hooves.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I never feel guilty; can't imagine why I would feel that way. I listen to what I want to listen to at any point in time.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> Hey! When the war finally comes to your stable door, which ride will you choose to meet it on? Right! And you'll be thankful for that ol' warhorse, with his full throttle of experienced reliability and comfortable familiarity.
> 
> Just hope the fellow you're facing selected the newbie pony ride. If so, you'll sit reassured in a well-worn saddle on a fine quad of hooves.


Is this about classical music, horses, or a 1998 Ford Taurus?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I spend a lot of my listening time exploring the fringes of the repertoire. But sometimes I get a deep yearning to put on some old warhorse - and when I do it is always a very satisfying listen. The thought goes through my head that this work is a beloved warhorse for good reason! It's GREAT! Most of the orchestras I play with program only those warhorses; that's what brings an audience in, and despite my complaining about always playing the same old repertoire, playing things like Brahms 1st, Beethoven 5th, Tchaikovsky 5th, Schumann 4th reminds me of why I was so attracted to classical music in the first place. No guilt, just frustration that there's so much music and so little time.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For a couple of years already over 95% of my listening to classical music has been determined by going systematically through my CD collection (alphabetical per composer) to physically store them in cabinets so I know where they are and to make a masterlist in the computer. That includes all my CD's, from 1986 until now. Some I've listened to dozens of times, some just a few times and there are a good many that I had not even listened to once (cheap or free downloads, thrift store finds I could not resist). As a result my daily listening is usually a blend of the familiar, less familiar and new anyway. And I never get tired of the warhorses (who made up most of my CD's in the early years). When I finally come to the V, I will even enjoy the four seasons again.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

fbjim said:


> Is this about classical music, horses, or a 1998 Ford Taurus?


Hey! Don't you listen to classical music when you're ridin' your horse, or drivin' in your Ford Taurus, or whatever vehicle of whatever year?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> I spend a lot of my listening time exploring the fringes of the repertoire. But sometimes I get a deep yearning to put on some old warhorse - and when I do it is always a very satisfying listen. The thought goes through my head that this work is a beloved warhorse for good reason! It's GREAT! ...


This is exactly my view. The vast majority of my listening is to works I've never heard before or might have heard once but likely don't remember. When I do hear what others call warhorses, I'm stunned by how beautiful, engaging, and interesting they are.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Voted "Never" - I always hear something different - something unique - something revelatory - despite however many times I may hear a composition...
Granted, it's mostly because I just wasn't paying any attention the first couple of times that I heard it...


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I get what you mean. I have so much new music to listen to, but when I put on a Beethoven symphony I feel slightly guilty that I don’t listen to a Sibelius symphony for the first time. I still have to listen to Finlandia and I even started a whole thread on it. So when I put up something I know I’ll enjoy I feel like I should listen to something new that I know I’ll probably like anyway


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have no qualms about *listening* following my pleasure whatsoever. 
However, since several years I do tend to avoid *buying* new recordings of works already well represented in my collection. So if for some reason I nevertheless get another disc with a Beethoven symphony or Goldbergs or Mozart piano concerto etc. I sometimes feel a bit guilty, or at least think that I need a pretty good reason adding a 5th, 10th or 20th recording.
Sometimes I do things like ArtRock described but on a much smaller scale, i.e. I decide to systematically listen to a certain "neglected" section of my collection or so.


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## sAmUiLc (9 mo ago)

I know musicians who performed almost anything when they were young, but in the later phase of their performing career concentrated on a few important composers, like Klemperer, Arrau.. I am not saying I, purely a listener, can be compared to these great musicians (but listeners are indispensable still) but as I know I have not many years left I do not want to waste (?) my time in exploring marginal repertoire. To be honest, I never like those stuff, as my long-departed friend used to call them 'alien droppings.' 😚😛


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I tend to fall in love with a piece and listen to it over and over. I am actually sad, when the spell finally breaks and I need to find a new love...


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't feel guilt I just listen to what I like


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

My listening habit is usually driven with the output of a particular composer in mind rather than a bunch of miscellaneous works by various composers, so if there happens to be any usual suspects in whatever I have by whoever then they don't get played any more or any less than anything else. In a nutshell this means I don't get to favour better-known works by playing them in isolation, so I suppose one advantage is that there's less chance of my getting bored with them.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

As music is to be enjoyed it I cannot see why one should feel guilty about enjoying it


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

elgar's ghost said:


> My listening habit is usually driven with the output of a particular composer in mind rather than a bunch of miscellaneous works by various composers, so if there happens to be any usual suspects in whatever I have by whoever then they don't get played any more or any less than anything else. In a nutshell this means I don't get to favour better-known works by playing them in isolation, so I suppose one advantage is that there's less chance of my getting bored with them.


Amazing diligence in crafting the playlists for your ongoing projects as seen in "Current Listening" - My compliments - For the past two weeks, my "listening project" has literally consisted of playing my way through the stack of discs that I knocked off of a shelf and have been picking up off the floor because I'm too lazy to re-stack them.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

For me it's fear of missing out in a sense. The suspicion that something out there is something I'd love but I haven't discovered yet.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Shaughnessy said:


> Amazing diligence in crafting the playlists for your ongoing projects as seen in "Current Listening" - My compliments - For the past two weeks, my "listening project" has literally consisted of playing my way through the stack of discs that I knocked off of a shelf and have been picking up off the floor because I'm too lazy to re-stack them.


Thank you. Decades ago with my rock stuff I had a tendancy to play some albums far more than others, which led to a kind of "warhorse" situation. My listening these days - at least where classical is concerned - is far more democratic, I think. 🙂


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I have done so for a number of years. Found some artists I like and some I didn't. Now it's fun to go back and spend more time with my favorites.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The fun part about warhorses is, there are so many interpretations of them out there, the fun is hearing the same piece interpreted different ways. 

In contrast, I have several one-off recordings that I know will never be re-recorded, and I've wondered if what I'm hearing is the ultimate interpretation. I'll probably never know.


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## LennyR (Apr 10, 2013)

I'm deliciously without guilt listening to any and all 'warhorses'. They're 'warhorses' for a reason; most of the time they're ahead of the pack and have stood the test of time. Ergo, zero guilt.


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## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

For decades, my modus operandi was to repeatedly traverse through my CD collection, which includes lots of warhorses. Now, having a Spotify account, I am exploring a lot more and have come to appreciate composers with whom I previously had no familiarity, such as Weinberg, Myaskovsky, Villa-Lobos, Milhaud, Schmidt...Listening to new works does sometimes feel like homework, as I typically have to listen to something several times before it clicks. Having done my homework, I reward myself with a warhorse. My guilt-free playlist tonight is Myaskovsky Sym 5, Weinberg String Quartet 5, and Bruckner Sym 2 (warhorse!).


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

bagpipers said:


> I don't feel guilt I just listen to what I like



So am I, why all the complication just do as you like.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

No, never.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

The phrase "Warhorse Guilt" is amusing. I know exactly what it refers to, and it's usually caused by those academics and critics whose mission in life is to eradicate kitsch, or something. I trust that it is not recognized as a mental health disorder in the DSM 5!


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

fbjim said:


> The eternal problem that affects all classical listeners, no matter their tastes, listening habits, or background is simple: There are not enough hours in the day, and too much music to listen to.
> 
> Because of this, I've sometimes felt legitimately guilty about putting on a piece I know I love, like Berlioz or Reich, rather than explore. This is especially the case when I've found composers off the beaten warhorse path that I legitimately treasure from exploring - Saygun, Rzewski, Schnittke, Feldman.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do feel a slight pang of guilt...almost every time I put on something familiar rather than fulfil the promise I made to myself that I would make a start on the Bruckner or Brahms or Mendelssohn that others rave about.

There's nothing to do about it. It's an instinctive response which I guess some of us have and some of us haven't.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

fbjim said:


> For me it's fear of missing out in a sense. The suspicion that something out there is something I'd love but I haven't discovered yet.


Yea but the searching and repeated listening can be hard so you have to have a break and listen to what you already love. Don't need to feel guilty about it lol.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

fbjim said:


> For me it's fear of missing out in a sense. The suspicion that something out there is something I'd love but I haven't discovered yet.


I think one should use common sense and not overthink it. One always misses out on something. One needs and usually does develop a sense over time that helps deciding fairly reliably what to explore and when not to bother. I expanded (bought) too much to really keep up with between ca. 2005 and 2013. This included both multiplying recordings of the same repertoire, getting to know other standard repertoire I hadn't known before and getting all kinds of lesser known stuff someone liked on the internet. There is obvious a marginal utility gain reached quickly, especially with recordings of the same music. I reduced this but also "new to me" music considerably in the last years and go more for revisiting stuff I bought, sometimes long ago, but barely know.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Forster said:


> Yes, I do feel a slight pang of guilt...almost every time I put on something familiar rather than fulfil the promise I made to myself that I would make a start on the Bruckner or Brahms or Mendelssohn that others rave about.
> 
> There's nothing to do about it. It's an instinctive response which I guess some of us have and some of us haven't.


that’s exactly how I feel about it too. But then I listen to said warhorse and then it’s all good again


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Since I don't listen to any of the music most commonly associated with being a 'warhorse', I feel no guilt at all. Unless, at this point, The Rite of Spring, or Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta are considered warhorses.

One of my greatest joys in music, is discovering a new piece, composer, musician, or band. Getting blown away all over again.

The vast majority of my collection, is made up of incredible music, that would certainly not be considered a warhorse.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Simon Moon said:


> Since I don't listen to any of the music most commonly associated with being a 'warhorse', I feel no guilt at all. Unless, at this point, The Rite of Spring, or Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta are considered warhorses.


They are, I'd say. Of course, it's a relative term. But compared to almost anything by e.g. Ligeti or Rihm or even compared to late Stravinsky like Movements (or how this dodecaphonic piano+orchestra is called) these two are "warhorses". But nobody should feel guilty for listening to them


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I think one should use common sense and not overthink it. One always misses out on something. One needs and usually does develop a sense over time that helps deciding fairly reliably what to explore and when not to bother. I expanded (bought) too much to really keep up with between ca. 2005 and 2013. This included both multiplying recordings of the same repertoire, getting to know other standard repertoire I hadn't known before and getting all kinds of lesser known stuff someone liked on the internet. There is obvious a marginal utility gain reached quickly, especially with recordings of the same music. I reduced this but also "new to me" music considerably in the last years and go more for revisiting stuff I bought, sometimes long ago, but barely know.


If there's an answer I think it's that someone needs to find the act of seeking out new music to be enjoyable in itself, rather than something one does because it's edifying or "good for you".

There's nothing wrong with it being edifying of course, but it runs the risk of making exploration seem less like exploration and more like homework.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

music is a big ocean and we dont live long enough to explore it all. That's the human condition

think about this....my physicist friends tell me that all matter is really energy at a particular kind of resonance. (e = mc^2 and all that)

so the universe we live in is really made up of energy at different frequencies unfolding in time. 

sounds alot like something else we know, doesn't it?

so when I finally lay my burdens down, my hope is that I'll get to play in the great symphony of the universe. Now my mom's people are Irish, and my grandma told me that in Heaven you only get to play on the tunes you learned here on earth, so who knows....

but there's more music in this world than I will ever play or be able to listen to, so I think have more guilt over the time I spent watching Gilligan's Island.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Don't overthink it. The music exists for you, not you for the music.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Roger Knox said:


> The phrase "Warhorse Guilt" is amusing. ...


There's a sense in which this "warhorse" expression is _not _amusing. What happens to old warhorses? Put out to pasture, at best ... . "Warhorse" is a loaded term; adding works to the repertoire means subtracting others. Some "unheralded" works were once popular then rejected as warhorses. This has all been a long way of saying I don't like the term.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Warhorse? Shouldn't it be workhorse? Anyway, I never felt guilty for listening to a piece of music unless it was by Philip Glass.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Neo Romanza said:


> Warhorse? Shouldn't it be workhorse? Anyway, I never felt guilty for listening to a piece of music unless it was by Philip Glass.



Even that can be very interesting, the CD ; Philip Glass: Piano Works
Víkingur Ólafsson (piano)-Siggi String Quartet is a very good example. 
Try it, if you have time left


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> Even that can be very interesting, the CD ; Philip Glass: Piano Works
> Víkingur Ólafsson (piano)-Siggi String Quartet is a very good example.
> Try it, if you have time left


I'll respectfully pass. Life's too short to listen to a composer's music you can't stand.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Neo Romanza said:


> I'll respectfully pass. Life's too short to listen to a composer's music you can't stand.


Fair enough 👍


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

What's with the advice not to "overthink it"? I don't see any overthinking going on, just a member asking if anyone else has the same _feelings _as they do. Thinking doesn't come into it.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Are you talking about listening to your significant other?


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

There’s nothing to feel guilty about. I listen to music that I enjoy for myself - whether it be a “Warhorse” or something more unusual. Life is too short to worry about other peoples opinions.

I will say that listening to different music and varying my listening has heightened my appreciation of some of the more “standard” and it’s allowed me to listen with fresher ears or from a different perspective.

I don’t feel guilty for listening to Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, Brahms, Puccini, Verdi et al. Then again I don’t feel any different listening to Bantock, Sullivan, Bowen, Stenhammer or Raff (for example) either. 

Whether it’s standard or obscure is irrelevant - it’s all music. If you enjoy it, that is all that matters - be it a Composer, a work or a performer/performance.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Strange, strange question. What would be the source of my guilt? Neglecting lesser known pieces? Why would that make me feel guilty? it makes no sense. Am I wronging the lesser known pieces by neglecting them? Am I hurting the composers' (many of them dead) feelings? I don't get why anyone would feel guilty.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Strange, strange question. What would be the source of my guilt? Neglecting lesser known pieces? Why would that make me feel guilty? it makes no sense. Am I wronging the lesser known pieces by neglecting them? Am I hurting the composers' (many of them dead) feelings? I don't get why anyone would feel guilty.


The dogmatic certainty with some post here is as disappointing as the surprise expressed by some at the guilt confessed by the OP.

Don't feel guilty; I don't feel guilty; you're overthinking; what is there to feel guilty about; stop it; why on earth...?

Why not just accept the OPs question at face value? This is how they feel; this is why; does anyone else ever feel the same?

The responses show an extraordinary lack of empathy.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Unless it's going to land me in one of the 9 Circles of Hell as described in Dante's Inferno, my conscience tends to be troubled by little...

1. Limbo
2. Lust
3. Gluttony
4. Greed
5. Anger
6. Heresy
7. Violence
8. Fraud
9. Treachery

Nothing about "listening to classical music warhorses" - so everyone who voted "Yes" can probably relax...

Even some of the punishments within the circles aren't enough to have any effect on my behavior

Second Circle - Lust - "punished by being blown violently back and forth by strong winds, preventing them from finding peace and rest" - Sounds like Ireland to me...

Third Circle - Gluttony - "punished by being forced to lie in a vile slush that is produced by never-ending icy rain." - Again, sounds like Ireland to me.

Fifth Circle - Anger - "the furious fighting each other on the surface of the river Styx and the sullen gurgling beneath the surface of the water " - And yet again, sounds just like Ireland to me.

And so, if you choose your sins wisely, apparently the worst that you have to fear is spending all of eternity in Ireland...

It could be worse... At least we speak English (kind of...)


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Forster said:


> The dogmatic certainty with some post here is as disappointing as the surprise expressed by some at the guilt confessed by the OP.
> 
> Don't feel guilty; I don't feel guilty; you're overthinking; what is there to feel guilty about; stop it; why on earth...?
> 
> ...


Well sorry to disappoint you - empathy is overrated. I prefer conscious, deliberative reasoning in everyday life, using our heads rather than our hearts.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> I'll respectfully pass. Life's too short to listen to a composer's music you can't stand.


Totally agree. The musical ‘bed of nails’ is to be avoided.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Well sorry to disappoint you - empathy is overrated. I prefer conscious, deliberative reasoning in everyday life, using our heads rather than our hearts.


Are you a ben Shapiro fan by any chance?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Forster said:


> Why not just accept the OPs question at face value? This is how they feel; this is why; does anyone else ever feel the same?
> 
> The responses show an extraordinary lack of empathy.


Empathy: "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

Some of us do not share nor understand the OP, nor feel the same. Do you expect us to fake an empathetic response?


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I made this thread because I was curious about what others felt, not to see if others agreed with me. 

For me, the "guilt" is for two reasons - 1) I sometimes think I owe it to myself to expand my horizons (but this has the risk of making music seem like an obligation, rather than a leisure activity), and 2) The idea that somewhere out there is a work I will treasure if I only listened to more music (though this will always be the case, since it's impossible to listen to everything).


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Forster said:


> What's with the advice not to "overthink it"? I don't see any overthinking going on, just a member asking if anyone else has the same _feelings _as they do. Thinking doesn't come into it.


To be fair I overthink things a lot. Whenever I take one of those personality quizzes, any time a question says "always" or "never", I get hung up on those words and tend to end up disagreeing with them.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Empathy: "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."
> 
> Some of us do not share nor understand the OP, nor feel the same. Do you expect us to fake an empathetic response?


No, I expect responses to show some tolerance and understanding of what is, obviously for some, an alien feeling.

fbjim doesn't seem to be overly _troubled _by 'guilt' - I don't suppose their failings will be disclosed next time they go to confession - but it's a convenient term to describe the twinge of conscience felt at not listening to what they think they should be listening to. As someone who does empathise with fbjim, I dislike the tone adopted by some in dismissing such feelings.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I appreciate the sentiment but I'm a big boy, I can take it, hah. 

Like I said, I'm looking less for like-minded souls and more - well, I just like to see the mindsets others take when listening to music, and deciding what to listen to.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

EvaBaron said:


> Are you a ben Shapiro fan by any chance?


No.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

fbjim said:


> I appreciate the sentiment but I'm a big boy, I can take it, hah.
> 
> Like I said, I'm looking less for like-minded souls and more - well, I just like to see the mindsets others take when listening to music, and deciding what to listen to.


I listen to what I want without giving any thought to if I _should_ want to listen to it.


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## scott.stucky48 (7 mo ago)

My favorite warhorse is probably the Rimsky version of Boris, which I far prefer to its competitors.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

(other than 'disrespecting each other for having different opinions'), the only real "misdeed" we can commit from being too immersed in the famous composers is 'distorting history based on the favoritism'.


hammeredklavier said:


> "One critic shaped how we look at a half-century of painting. If Pollock was overrated, Clement Greenberg was the one doing it. We just followed his lead. So what is the correction here? It's not to discount Jackson Pollock. It's to give more attention to those other abstract expressionists as well. And to know the critic who decided which names we'd learn."
> 
> I'm necessarily saying the same thing happened in classical music, but the power of "influencers" (critics such as Donald Tovey, Charlatan Rosen, Landon) shouldn't be underestimated.





hammeredklavier said:


> For instance, have a look at the article <I Believe in Mozart: Symphony No. 41 in C Major> 2013/03/18/i-believe-in-mozart-symphony-41-in-c-major/
> 
> 
> 
> ...





hammeredklavier said:


> If you have a copy of Charles Rosen's <The Classical Style>, have a look at page 281, where he discusses Mozart's K.174 quintet; _"The immediate model for this work is not at all Michael Haydn, as has been thought, much less Boccherini, but ..."_
> In this manner, he goes onto discuss Mozart's other quintets, how they were homage to a certain composer (other than Michael Haydn).
> The closeness of chromatic language and stuff Mozart has with Michael, —Rosen does not mention.
> MH287: watch?v=qIPffGnkaKU&t=3m33s (compare with K.515/i)
> ...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It's more a matter of potential burnout rather than guilt. At one point I reached saturation point, so I stopped collecting, culled my classical collection (its now one third of its former size). I still have many warhorses, but no longer have copies of ones which I didn't want to listen to regularly. That's got advantages, for example the other week Beethoven's 5th came up on the radio, and I was all ears because I hadn't heard it in ages.

In terms of my collection, I listen to it less, and am able to spread out my listening more. In the past two months for example, I've mainly just repeatedly listened to a handful of works by Schoenberg. I've also been able to devote a bit more time to reading about musicians who I like. 

Other strategies included developing other hobbies and, especially after a hard day, simply doing nothing (or what amounts to it). John Cage was onto something when he said that he was against listening to canned music, what he called "ego music." The constant stream of music everywhere, from our earbuds to shopping centres and places of recreation like bars, can numb us from what's happening around us. Even nothing is better than something that just fills the void for little or no purpose.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Well sorry to disappoint you - empathy is overrated. I prefer conscious, deliberative reasoning in everyday life, using our heads rather than our hearts.


But empathy makes the world go round and "deliberative reasoning" has led different thinkers to very very different places (and so seems very unreliable, I would reason). It is often used to justify wars that came later to be seen as unjust and, anyway, seems to rely on having reliable data to commit our reasoning upon. Given this failure of reasoning to deliver us to truth and value, it seems that empathy is a good value to live by. It's a bit like trying to argue that good taste can be arrived at objectively.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

fbjim said:


> I appreciate the sentiment but I'm a big boy, I can take it, hah.
> 
> Like I said, I'm looking less for like-minded souls and more - well, I just like to see the mindsets others take when listening to music, and deciding what to listen to.


as a player I see where you are coming from with this. Its like I said earlier, music is a big ocean and we dont live long enough to explore it all

for me, it is a question of working on pieces that I have played and performed for years versus learning new pieces. Sometimes learning a new pieces comes at the cost of other pieces going to crap while I work on the new stuff. Then I have to consider what I'm "on the hook for" in terms of commitments I've made and what there is realistically time for

I think all performers go through something similar

although guilt only enters into it if you are working on easy stuff when you know you are actually procrastinating and need to get to the real work


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## Saggy Shelves (Dec 10, 2014)

'The eternal problem that affects all classical listeners, no matter their tastes, listening habits, or background is simple: There are not enough hours in the day, and too much music to listen to.'

Are you really intimately familiar with every 'warhorse' in the repertoire- seems unlikely, somehow. 

Regarding the old problem of 'so much to listen to, what to choose' one effective approach for me has been to pick a certain composer (they will often suggest themselves to) and do a deep dive on that composer. Though they may have written a few of the so-called 'warhorses' there will be much else of interest if they are worth their salt, never mind comparing alternate recordings of some of the pieces that appeal to you the most.

A couple of years ago I realized that I had never wrapped my head around Mahler (other than say his First and Fourth Symphonies) and so I decided to do a deep dive on him and I now appreciate most of the rest of his Symphonies greatly, though it took patience and time, and a lot of research on the best recordings, etc. (some background reading was also helpful) though these are certainly well known works generally speaking. One problem with 'warhorse' recordings is that they have been recorded so many times (including many sub-par contract-satisfaction or tax write-off recordings) one must really make an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. With a really topnotch recording one may feel as if one really hadn't heard or appreciated the work properly before, no matter how familiar you might have assumed it to be. 

Recently, by contrast, a box set of the music of Erwin Schulhoff, with whom I was completely unfamiliar, was recommended to me and I've had it on repeat for a week or two. There is so much great music that is not well enough known largely due to unimaginative concert programming and tyhe demise of classical radio programming. Thank goodness for streaming music services as one can sample things without having to spend large sums 'on spec' as it were. I recommend Dave Hurwitz' channel for discovering lesser known works, and suggestions about the best recordings of well-known pieces also. He can be a little opinionated and I don't always agree with his suggestions, but it is a good place to start (when it comes to older recordings he has more tolerance for mono and sub-par analog recordings than I, but, again, thank goodness for being able to sample music via streaming services...)


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## Saggy Shelves (Dec 10, 2014)

Saggy Shelves said:


> 'The eternal problem that affects all classical listeners, no matter their tastes, listening habits, or background is simple: There are not enough hours in the day, and too much music to listen to.'
> 
> 
> Try Hurwitz' recent video: 'Repertoire: 10 Stunning Recordings of Non-Standard Repertoire (3) on BIS'


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I suffer no guilt about what I choose to listen to (Ravel's Bolero); I'm just careful to not admit to it in public.

Oops; I just did... .


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Saggy Shelves, I like your pseudonym and your deep dive approach! It looks like you joined TC quite a while ago.

Incidentally (this is not directed only at you) if you bring up any more pearls like the Schulhoff or even the odd edible oyster, please share them with us. Because, although some people may act like they know the repertoire inside out, it likely is you'll have listened to the pieces more recently. Perhaps the recordings will be newer, even better in some way. I would gladly read anyone's response to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony who conveys their experience thoughtfully and with conviction.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Enthusiast said:


> But empathy makes the world go round and "deliberative reasoning" has led different thinkers to very very different places (and so seems very unreliable, I would reason). It is often used to justify wars that came later to be seen as unjust and, anyway, seems to rely on having reliable data to commit our reasoning upon. Given this failure of reasoning to deliver us to truth and value, it seems that empathy is a good value to live by. It's a bit like trying to argue that good taste can be arrived at objectively.


I am not with you on this one at all. Rational thought beats emotional reaction most times in my books. And no, rational thought is not used to justify wars - quite the contrary, most justifications for war have been done with authorities playing on people's emotions by bombarding them with lies and misrepresentations. Only reasoning can deliver us truth; blind appeal to emotions is a fool's world.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I never feel bad listening to anything I enjoy. I often feel like I wasted my time on other stuff, however. I find about 95 percent of what critics rave about to be far less enjoyable for me. Ergo I don't pay much attention to people that jump for joy over something that in sound bytes, on YouTube or elsewhere, sounds mediocre to me.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

What we're talking about here is what's called _opportunity cost_ in economics. If you spend time and money doing one thing, it obviously cancels out other things. Guilt is related in terms of feeling regret in hindsight for taking one option over another. Choices are the stuff of life because time and money are precious resources, they are finite.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I am not with you on this one at all. Rational thought beats emotional reaction most times in my books. And no, rational thought is not used to justify wars - quite the contrary, most justifications for war have been done with authorities playing on people's emotions by bombarding them with lies and misrepresentations. Only reasoning can deliver us truth; blind appeal to emotions is a fool's world.


No one said anything about "blind" emotion, and most would agree that rational thought has an important function. However, irrational thought, not just emotion, has negative consequences.

Of all the arts, music consists of a balancing of head and heart, with some composers leaning - it appears - more one way than another, though there's no guaranteeing that you can accurately read a particular composer's emotions or thoughts just from the music, since audience responses to it can be so varied.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Roger Knox said:


> Saggy Shelves, I like your pseudonym and your deep dive approach! It looks like you joined TC quite a while ago.
> 
> Incidentally (this is not directed only at you) if you bring up any more pearls like the Schulhoff or even the odd edible oyster, please share them with us. Because, although some people may act like they know the repertoire inside out, it likely is you'll have listened to the pieces more recently. Perhaps the recordings will be newer, even better in some way. I would gladly read anyone's response to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony who conveys their experience thoughtfully and with conviction.


Roger Knox - Hmm, Beethoven's 5th, eh? Well, it came at a certain point (about midway) in his Symphonic career, while the most-forceful of the preceding Symphonies was the 3rd/Eroica. He was already (to me) shedding some of the Haydn influence, into a more-emphatic, "less-rounded" (let's say) approach ... but WITHIN the usual framework of the time/period. The originality of ALL NINE Symphonies should be unquestioned, but with the 5th ... I think there's a more-concise resolution of the themes/developments, and the sense of his "Heaven-storming" bent is maybe the strongest, here. ... Also, it doesn't "hurt" that some of the greatest conductors (Toscanini, Szell, Reiner, etc.) have very-much encompassed that, very vehemence and resolution (IMO), in recordings/performances that are virtually unsurpassed. Finally, I mention RECORDINGS, because maybe (probably? or certainly?) the YouTube doesn't have the BEST examples of certain classical works. What do you and the others think? ... and thanks.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Sid James said:


> What we're talking about here is what's called _opportunity cost_ in economics. If you spend time and money doing one thing, it obviously cancels out other things. Guilt is related in terms of feeling regret in hindsight for taking one option over another. Choices are the stuff of life because time and money are precious resources, they are finite.


Looking into myself it's both this and a popular topic-of-discussion/psychological-flavor-of-the-week that gets brought up known as "choice paralysis". 

It is so easy now to access just about everything that's ever been recorded by even a small classical label that it can be overwhelming. _The Paradox of Choice _brought this into the mainstream - and though this is not particularly rational, sometimes the reaction to having every single work of music at one's fingertips is to get overwhelmed and stick to what one knows. 

To an extent this can tie in with FOMO/opportunity cost - when there's more choices to be made, there's more fear that one isn't making the "correct" one to maximize one's own satisfaction. 

I do know that some of my best exploration happened because I purchased some interesting looking CDs/records at a store - having more of an "investment" to really getting into them versus the ephemeral nature of streaming.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

fbjim said:


> The eternal problem that affects all classical listeners, no matter their tastes, listening habits, or background is simple: There are not enough hours in the day, and too much music to listen to.
> 
> Because of this, I've sometimes felt legitimately guilty about putting on a piece I know I love, like Berlioz or Reich, rather than explore. This is especially the case when I've found composers off the beaten warhorse path that I legitimately treasure from exploring - Saygun, Rzewski, Schnittke, Feldman.
> 
> ...


I can help you here. The music you feel too guilty to listen to because it is too well-known is actually completely unknown to most people. So there is no need to feel guilty about listening to it, or to anything else that happens to interest you.

You're welcome.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

fbjim said:


> Looking into myself it's both this and a popular topic-of-discussion/psychological-flavor-of-the-week that gets brought up known as "choice paralysis".
> 
> It is so easy now to access just about everything that's ever been recorded by even a small classical label that it can be overwhelming. _The Paradox of Choice _brought this into the mainstream - and though this is not particularly rational, sometimes the reaction to having every single work of music at one's fingertips is to get overwhelmed and stick to what one knows.


I think that, as always, there's a point where many stop exploring and settle down to what they're comfortable with. It might be a wide array of things, but its still limited compared to every single option available.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Keep in mind, limiting time or money spent in one area (say, music) can open up room for participation in others. There's only so many months in a year, days in a week, hours in a day to keep a few hobbies going. Most people's recreation time is already limited compared to work and family obligations.

There's also something to be said for having fallow periods which allow room for rest and perhaps consolidation of what you already know.



> To an extent this can tie in with FOMO/opportunity cost - when there's more choices to be made, there's more fear that one isn't making the "correct" one to maximize one's own satisfaction.


I think FOMO takes opportunity cost to a whole new level. Its about comparing our lives to the highlights reels of others on social media, for example. Keeping up with the Joneses, but they're not even real Joneses. So inevitably, we construct a fake version of ourselves to compete. I think that the most obvious way to deal with it is to tune out of social media as much as possible.



> I do know that some of my best exploration happened because I purchased some interesting looking CDs/records at a store - having more of an "investment" to really getting into them versus the ephemeral nature of streaming.


I agree, although I've also made discoveries by listening to radio and borrowing from libraries. Serendipity is rare, but its nice when it happens.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Sid James said:


> I think that, as always, there's a point where many stop exploring and settle down to what they're comfortable with. It might be a wide array of things, but its still limited compared to every single option available.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Keep in mind, limiting time or money spent in one area (say, music) can open up room for participation in others. There's only so many months in a year, days in a week, hours in a day to keep a few hobbies going. Most people's recreation time is already limited compared to work and family obligations.
> 
> ...


What can we learn from this; (from wiki)

The seminal research on delayed gratification – the now-famous "marshmallow experiment" – was conducted by Walter Mischel in the 1960s and 1970s at Stanford University. Mischel and his colleagues were interested in strategies that preschool children used to resist temptation. They presented four-year-olds with a marshmallow and told the children that they had two options: (1) ring a bell at any point to summon the experimenter and eat the marshmallow, or (2) wait until the experimenter returned (about 15 minutes later), and earn two marshmallows. The message was: "small reward now, bigger reward later." Some children broke down and ate the marshmallow, whereas others were able to delay gratification and earn the coveted two marshmallows.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

i try to listen to the whole spectrum from kassia to today's composers and i never forget that the old warhorses were discoveries at one time and that i still dearly love them; on the other discoveries are the spice of life and are more challenging; so the discoveries require more intense listening while well-known works are more relaxing and can be played while you are busy with other activities; anyway a healthy mix of both is what i try to achieve


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

justekaia said:


> i try to listen to the whole spectrum from kassia to today's composers and i never forget that the old warhorses were discoveries at one time and that i still dearly love them; on the other discoveries are the spice of life and are more challenging; so the discoveries require more intense listening while well-known works are more relaxing and can be played while you are busy with other activities; anyway a healthy mix of both is what i try to achieve


Yes, imagine if every person did this. We would have a healthy CM industry, and more children would be exposed (for their appreciation in the future).


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

yeah and I do exactly the same for the visual arts, movies and literature, geopolitics and economy so you can imagine the more harmonious world we could have.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

And if they leave it on consistently as background music they will probably come to appreciate some/much of it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Luchesi said:


> What can we learn from this; (from wiki)
> 
> The seminal research on delayed gratification – the now-famous "marshmallow experiment" – was conducted by Walter Mischel in the 1960s and 1970s at Stanford University. Mischel and his colleagues were interested in strategies that preschool children used to resist temptation. They presented four-year-olds with a marshmallow and told the children that they had two options: (1) ring a bell at any point to summon the experimenter and eat the marshmallow, or (2) wait until the experimenter returned (about 15 minutes later), and earn two marshmallows. The message was: "small reward now, bigger reward later." Some children broke down and ate the marshmallow, whereas others were able to delay gratification and earn the coveted two marshmallows.


I think that our discomfort with voids and a sense of urgently needing to fill them is related to instant gratification. Before smartphones and portable devices, when we where waiting for an appointment, at a bus stop or in a long queue for some reason, most of us would do something like read a newspaper, chat or stare idly into the distance. Today, with any such gap to fill, its common to feel unease and then take out the device.

Its gotten to the point that people pay to go on retreats to have a break from their devices. These offer opportunities for meditation and you leave all devices at the door when you enter. An acquaintance of mine went and found that memories of all sorts arose which he'd completely forgotten about. I've done what's called a digital detox on some weekends, which is similar although all my other regular activities where as normal.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Wasn't it John Cage that talked about the perception of music, especially recorded music, as something to fill voids? Not in a positive way, mind you, he was speaking of stuff like background music in department stores.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Sid James said:


> I think that our discomfort with voids and a sense of urgently needing to fill them is related to instant gratification. Before smartphones and portable devices, when we where waiting for an appointment, at a bus stop or in a long queue for some reason, most of us would do something like read a newspaper, chat or stare idly into the distance. Today, with any such gap to fill, its common to feel unease and then take out the device.
> 
> Its gotten to the point that people pay to go on retreats to have a break from their devices. These offer opportunities for meditation and you leave all devices at the door when you enter. An acquaintance of mine went and found that memories of all sorts arose which he'd completely forgotten about. I've done what's called a digital detox on some weekends, which is similar although all my other regular activities where as normal.


For best results, take everything in moderation. Including the many substances, and some music theory lessons.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

fbjim said:


> Wasn't it John Cage that talked about the perception of music, especially recorded music, as something to fill voids? Not in a positive way, mind you, he was speaking of stuff like background music in department stores.


I got the impression that Cage was offering an idea similar to mine below;

You mount your camcorder out the window (your choice of window). Then turn on some CM, quite loud (for the recording). Find a nice road with some traffic, not too much. Start recording.
When you get to view the video it might appear to be an interesting 'composition'.

I've done it, more than once, and I've some successes. If you change the music at the right time, it should improve the clips. Take a copilot along.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

fbjim said:


> Wasn't it John Cage that talked about the perception of music, especially recorded music, as something to fill voids? Not in a positive way, mind you, he was speaking of stuff like background music in department stores.


Correct. He didn't own any sound recordings, and only wanted his own music to be available in small runs. He also had a network through which he distributed tapes of it, which wasn't on any commerical basis. I've found his ideas about recorded music and mindfulness useful in terms of dealing with information overload, which is even more relevant now than it was in his time. I went into a bit of detail on that here:









The irony about John Cage


The irony about John Cage is that he composed a good deal of music that his detractors would really enjoy. And by detractors I mean the people who think he was just an experimenter rather than a real artist. Case in point:




www.talkclassical.com







Luchesi said:


> For best results, take everything in moderation. Including the many substances, and some music theory lessons.


Agreed, although I've never had music theory lessons.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Agreed, although I've never had music theory lessons.


It's the same as giving up or forgetting some helpful concept(s) you currently have about music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Luchesi said:


> It's the same as giving up or forgetting some helpful concept(s) you currently have about music.


I don't know where you're coming from because I didn't talk about music theory. I also don't understand why I should be forgetting concepts (whichever ones you mean) that I find useful.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I only feel anything self-conscious (guilt, regret) when I realize I've been ignoring a piece of music or musician unjustly. That rarely happens with anything I'm familiar with. One great thing about classical music is that I keep finding new discoveries to keep me interested, but I have to sort through the duds to find them.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Sid James said:


> I don't know where you're coming from because I didn't talk about music theory. I also don't understand why I should be forgetting concepts (whichever ones you mean) that I find useful.


I mean, it's the same as missing a big piece. But you would only notice if you miss it.

Walk us through how you learn to appreciate a work that's new to you. A work that you believe is highly recommended.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

philoctetes said:


> I only feel anything self-conscious (guilt, regret) when I realize I've been ignoring a piece of music or musician unjustly. That rarely happens with anything I'm familiar with. One great thing about classical music is that I keep finding new discoveries to keep me interested, but I have to sort through the duds to find them.


Good to see you, VO.

Yes, for me CM is a large world of music. It doesn't have the annoyances of pop and some jazz, but it has its own annoyances (personally to be avoided).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Luchesi said:


> I mean, it's the same as missing a big piece. But you would only notice if you miss it.


I still don't understand, this is too cryptic for me. What am I missing, exactly? Just say what you're thinking.



> Walk us through how you learn to appreciate a work that's new to you. A work that you believe is highly recommended.


Following up a cryptic comment with a direct question shows that you can communicate directly. I would be willing to answer your question, but I see little use of doing that. Why ask me questions if you can't even give me a clear answer? I'm here to talk, not to trade questions with more questions.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I don't have warhorse guilt but occasionally someone has tried to inflict it on me:

one of my music theory professors -- an avant-gardist -- after I had performed the Grieg Piano Concerto: (_dismissively) _What do you think about it as a piece of music? Me: (_defensively_) Er, yeah, well I think the second movement is quite beautiful ... Him: Hrmff (_and strode off_).
I actually do like the Grieg Concerto still, but more to the point is that from a pianist's perspective it's usually a good idea to have some solo "warhorses" ready no matter what the cognoscenti think -- pieces like Bach's chorale prelude Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, Debussy's Claire de lune, Rachmaninoff's C# Minor Prelude, Chopin's Minute Waltz, Schumann's Traumerei, Brahms's Waltz No. 15 in Ab Major, Gerschwin's Prelude No. 2. And yet if you do, someone will be on your case for playing "warhorses."


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