# How do classical musicians afford their instruments?



## souio (Dec 31, 2019)

To play in good orchestras and things, it appears you need instruments that range in the $100,000/€75,000, especially if you're a solo violinist, who may even need an instrument in the millions. Yet, when I look at salaries of classical musicians, unless they're classical "rockstars" like Agarich/Hahn/etc, they do not seem to make much more than $50,000/€35,000 a year, which is around equal to a general manager at a retail store. It's a good living wage and one can live comfortably, but with that salary and living expenses, it would quite literally take a lifetime to pay off what they play - their instruments are worth many times their own net worth.

Unless their parents have to be quite weathy/businesspeople/lawyers/doctors (Then again, even 2 combined Doctors' salaries could take years to pay off a top quality Violin!) etc, I'm unsure how one would afford such expensive instruments. 

There definitely must be other ways. Any insights would be much appreciated, thanks!


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

The really expensive and historical instruments are usually bought by wealthy investors/philanthropists who are music lovers but who do not play professionally, and they will then allow an orchestra to use the instrument while the investor still retains ownership. The orchestra will use these instruments to attract high caliber musicians to audition for open principal positions within the orchestra. The benefit to the philanthropist is that he or she not only is supporting the arts, but it also ensures that the people get to hear the instrument and that the instruments are properly cared for and maintained by qualified professionals. Of course, this also helps the instrument to continue to appreciate in value, so it isn't an entirely selfless act on the part of the philanthropist. The investor's name will usually appear on the program notes for any concert in which the instrument is used along with some historical information about the instrument.

As far as the more mundane, yet still quite expensive, instruments that the rest of the orchestra members play, unless they are independently wealthy they will most likely need to take out a loan to pay for them. But since professional quality instruments almost always appreciate in value as long as they are properly maintained, orchestral musicians can generally trade up to more expensive instruments as their career progresses without having to carry crushing amounts of debt. 

At least this was the way it was explained to me by my cello teacher when I was in college 25 years ago. Maybe there are active professional musicians here who can provide more insight.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

$50,000 would be a very low salary for a professional, full-time gig in the US. The big orchestras pay well into the six figures. Not uncommon for a concert master to make $250k or higher. I read somewhere that the principal bassoonist of the LA Phil makes $300k. I know a couple of players in Kansas City who are paid $90,000 a year. Good money. The competition for those jobs is fierce and players have to stay on top of their game. Of course there are groups that pay a lot, lot less and would be happy to get $50k. 

And yes, those instruments are expensive. A Heckel bassoon starts around $40,000 these days, and with all the bells and whistles can probably double that. Extremely well-made trombones can fetch $25,000 and up. That's one justification for the salaries I've heard. But then explain please why percussionists are also paid the same, and usually don't buy their own instruments, at least for concert use. In most orchestras the timpani, bass drum, cymbals, glockenspiel, celesta, etc belong to the orchestra. Most drummers invest in a lot of sticks, but their cost is nothing compared to a great oboe. Harps are another thing. They are huge, heavy, awkward. Sometimes the player brings her own, sometimes the orchestra has one. A good concert harp is pricier than a nice car. 

There is another method to finance these instruments: be a representative/dealer for the manufacturer. I know several players who do just that. One for an Asian violin maker, and one who represents some Canadian brass instrument maker. They get good instruments, nice trips, and other benefits too, like being one of the first to try out some new model. Nothing compared to endorsing an athletic shoe, but it's something.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

When I started violin as a kid, my father bought me a $35 violin. It said ‘Stradivari’ inside.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

This article/podcast has some really interesting insights into the creation, repair, and cost of world class antique instruments, and mentions how one orchestra did a fundraiser to help a musician purchase one.

https://www.themagazineantiques.com/article/making-music-conversation-luthier-paul-becker/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveM said:


> When I started violin as a kid, my father bought me a $35 violin. It said 'Stradivari' inside.


I have a suspicion that a lot of $35 violins say "Stradivari" inside.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I have a suspicion that a lot of $35 violins say "Stradivari" inside.


I played in the 4th violin section of the student orchestra -a sign of my great talent- and was surprised to find that all the other violins in that section also said Stradivari inside.  (fwiw, later on I was also surprised to find that the orchestras on my recordings didn't have 4th violin sections.)


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

My violin was a real find, I think. I paid several thousands for it five years ago. It was made 122 years ago by the apprentice of the younger brother of Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, who owned and made copies of Stradivari. I think my violin was a really good find. I think it sounds great. And I'm not a professional.

Professionals also find some great violins that are not Stradivari, many better than mine. Some are lucky finds, many professionals pay tens of thousands. A few professionals pay hundreds of thousands, very few professionals would pay more than a million, though Joshua Bell did for his Gibson ex-Huberman Stradivarius.

Gibson ex Huberman Stradivarius wikipedia article

Strad Magazine story of the theft of the Gibson ex Huberman

BTW, I think my violin might also serve as an investment. When I'm old and feeble and unable to continue playing I can sell my violin to help pay for my old age. It should appreciate in value. Unlike a car that depreciates in value, this is a toy I can play with as it gains in value.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The last time I looked, almost a decade ago, at least eight US orchestras had “base” salaries over $100,000. Most players were probably paid more, many much more. One or two orchestras paid their concertmasters more than their conductors. The lowest base salary among my list of top-20 US orchestras was about $40,000 – hardly a living wage.

During the labor unrest a couple of years ago, other issues came up, including:

How many permanent positions would there be, versus on-call players?
How many concerts in a season, and how long the season?
Should players have a fixed salary or be paid by the performance/rehearsal?
Scope of health care coverage?
Who pays for instrument insurance?

The last item is important because, as you can imagine, instrument insurance is not cheap. I understand that orchestras have usually covered this in the past, but it was definitely on the table as a bargaining chip at the very least.

On another topic: Many rare and valuable instruments are owned by institutions and collectors. The owners will often lend these instruments out, usually to top-flight younger performers, so that they can be heard and get the “exercise” thought beneficial to their constitution and tone.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

A better question is how do students get hold of 20,000 dollar bassoons and bass clarinets so they can learn to play them? I don't remember my high school having these expensive instruments. We did have clarinets, cheap violins, brass, and percussion.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Most schools nowadays, at least in my part of the world, buy student models of things like bassoons, bass clarinets, contralto clarinets, etc. Even the cheapest plastic bassoon runs close to $5000. Bass clarinets less. But bari saxes - even student models - are quite expensive. So many schools hang on to old, worn out instruments and hope that repairs can keep them viable. In many large city schools there are booster clubs that raise money to acquire instruments. I know many band and orchestra directors who are so frustrated with budgeting. Their requests are usually at the bottom of the list and quickly get scratched out, but of course anything the athletic departments need are at the top of the heap and given priority.


There is one nearby high school that actually owns a contrabassoon. Those things are really expensive. My contra cost as much as a small import car and that was 20 years ago. When the school was being built a wealthy resident made an enormous donation to the music department and one of the first things the orchestra director bought was a contra. There are no student model contras, either. There's hardly anything a high school orchestra of this caliber can play that needs a contra; the conductor just thought it sounded cool.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

The government pays for or loans instruments, that's why orchestras have to submit to their whims.

There are also some foundations that loan instruments who also might have their agendas.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

1996D said:


> The government pays for or loans instruments, that's why orchestras have to submit to their whims.
> 
> There are also some foundations that loan instruments who also might have their agendas.


Could you give details on this government loan program and what the orchestra's submission entails?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The current government (USA) has a special loan program for orchestras that agree to program Haydn’s TRUMPet Concerto at least twice a year. The program ends after the 2020 election.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

At the end of Berlin Philharmonic performances, instrumental guest soloists are presented with a bouquet of flowers. I'm always worried they will drop their expensive instruments as they juggle both.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Then there's always really inexpensive instruments. Plastic trombones and trumpets!

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*https://pbone.co.uk/*


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Could you give details on this government loan program and what the orchestra's submission entails?


It depends on the country and sometimes the region you're in. You have to do your research.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Maybe this is how.


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