# Wagner: Where Do I Start?



## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

After a dozen years I'm finally thinking about "tackling" Wagner. The reason I phrase it that way is that I know it's going to take some time to go through his repertoire and truly appreciate it. 

Are there any recordings/pieces that would be a good place to get my feet wet with Wagner?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Solti's Ring
Parsifal conducted by Herbert Kegel on Brilliant Classics is a fine recording for a bargain price.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Wagner's delicate, poignant birthday gift to his wife performed here in the original staircase scoring for two violins, one viola, one cello, one double bass, one flute, one oboe, two clarinets, two horns, one trumpet, and one bassoon:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Highlight discs.
Preludes and overture discs.
The Ring without words discs.

Fliegender Hollander, Sinopoli or Klemperer
Lohengrin, Kempe, EMI/Warner is where I started.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

My opinion: first, get several of the many available recordings of the "bleeding chunks" - the orchestral excerpts from the operas. Szell, Boult, Stokowski -- many others. Get a few.

Then there are some fun orchestral recordings of the operas without words. Lorin Maazel's The Ring without Words is really good. He also made one of Tannhauser. If you find you like these, then try to locate three RCA cds that Edo de Waart made of Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde, and again the Ring.

If you're hooked on the sound, the luscious harmony, the brilliant orchestral writing then you have to take up the operas. Opera was meant to be seen and I really encourage newbies to get DVDs of the operas - you can turn on the subtitles and it will make a lot more sense. Boy, I wish that was an option when I was learning the opera repertoire. Every Wagner opera is available on DVD/Blu Ray. Read the reviews and look for a close to traditional performance. I am not a snob when it comes to singers. Yes, many of the past were great, and some of the newer aren't as good - but they're good enough for me.

If DVD is not to your liking then you have to do this: get Newman's book The Wagner Operas as a companion to explain and enlighten what you're going to listen to. Then get a good set, like the Warner. Still not exactly cheap, but heck, it's 36 disks. I really enjoy the Philips collection from Bayreuth. DG made a set of complete Wagner operas several years ago that has the three early operas.

However you do it, you might find yourself hopelessly addicted. Then you'll have to go see The Ring live, go to Bayreuth and do all the other Wagner-ite stuff. I love it, but it's so hard to find 5 open hours sometime to listen to Meistersinger or Tristan.

Enjoy!


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks to everyone. I will read everyone's posts carefully. I usually spend a lot of time doing these kind of things especially as someone as major as Wagner. You should be see me posting in the listening thread in the not-too-distant future.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

mbhaub said:


> My opinion: first, get several of the many available recordings of the "bleeding chunks" - the orchestral excerpts from the operas. Szell, Boult, Stokowski -- many others. Get a few.
> 
> Then there are some fun orchestral recordings of the operas without words. Lorin Maazel's The Ring without Words is really good. He also made one of Tannhauser. If you find you like these, then try to locate three RCA cds that Edo de Waart made of Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde, and again the Ring.
> 
> ...


I do like DVD's in opera and I have several. I will probably get a couple but I also want to listen without the visual element.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

I think that it depends on your background. If you're coming to Wagner from a mostly non-vocal background, some "bleeding hunks" recordings would be a good start. But if you're coming at him from other operatic repertoire, I'd go with a complete recording of one of the operas. The Karajan Rheingold worked for me.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Good luck! Wagner is still something of a big enigmatic monolith to me. His music is fascinating, but seemingly impenetrable. So far, the only thing I have really enjoyed is George Szell's Wagner Without Words CD with the Cleveland Orchestra, recommended earlier in this thread. It's a phenomenal performance of orchestral bits from several of his "mature/Bayreuth" operas, mostly the Ring. 

I would like to get into Wagner, but when everyone's first suggestion for where to begin is Solti's huge, 18-disc box set of the complete Ring Cycle, I will typically balk and move on to something else–typically, I'll go back to Berg or Webern when I can get through their entire works in a few hours :lol: But one day I'll probably get into it.

I recently bought Böhm's Tristan und Isolde at Bayreuth (on DG), and I've been listening here and there. It's a beautiful performance, but I know nothing of the plot. That one may be worth checking out, though from what I understand it's not exactly his most accessible opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

haydnguy said:


> After a dozen years I'm finally thinking about "tackling" Wagner. The reason I phrase it that way is that I know it's going to take some time to go through his repertoire and truly appreciate it.
> 
> Are there any recordings/pieces that would be a good place to get my feet wet with Wagner?


I'll second the Solti _Ring_ for a newbie. Some great singing, and spectacular sonics.

_Parsifal_ deters some and captivates others. If you're ready to leave the world behind and go into an altered state for 4 1/4 hours, go for the masterly 1962 Knappertsbusch from Bayreuth - a true classic, live from Wagner's own theater, in fine sound (moderately priced) - or, for state of the art studio sonics, the Kubelik (expensive).


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> I would like to get into Wagner, but when everyone's first suggestion for where to begin is Solti's huge, 18-disc box set of the complete Ring Cycle, I will typically balk and move on to something else-typically, I'll go back to Berg or Webern when I can get through their entire works in a few hours :lol: But one day I'll probably get into it.


Unless you decide you really don't like Wagner or opera, I can't imagine anyone will regret buying the Solti box for 30 dollars. It's such a great set of music beautifully recorded. The first opera Das Rheingold is just two discs. Enjoy that one until you've absorbed it and then move onto the next one. The music is on 14 discs, and it comes with the libretto on a CD-Rom, and two discs of narration by Deryck Cooke.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I'll second the Solti _Ring_ for a newbie. Some great singing, and spectacular sonics.
> 
> _Parsifal_ deters some and captivates others. If you're ready to leave the world behind and go into an altered state for 4 1/4 hours, go for the masterly 1962 Knappertsbusch from Bayreuth - a true classic, live from Wagner's own theater, in fine sound (moderately priced) - or, for state of the art studio sonics, the Kubelik (expensive).


_Tristan_ is essential listening, at least eventually. There's much disagreement about recordings, but the strongly dramatic Bohm bayreuth performance from 1966 is as good an introduction as any. The classic Furtwangler will always be there waiting for you.

Some may do best beginning with the early operas, _The Flying Dutchman, Tannhauser_ and _Lohengrin_, which are more conventionally melodious, though less deep and disturbing.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

starthrower said:


> Unless you decide you really don't like Wagner or opera, I can't imagine anyone will regret buying the Solti box for 30 dollars. It's such a great set of music beautifully recorded. The first opera Das Rheingold is just two discs. Enjoy that one until you've absorbed it and then move onto the next one. The music is on 14 discs, and it comes with the libretto on a CD-Rom, and two discs of narration by Deryck Cooke.


Don't get me wrong, I want to get it. I love Solti, and I expect nothing but greatness out of this. I just don't see myself getting through the full cycle any time soon, and thus can't really justify buying it at this point in my life when there is other music a lot more pertinent to my current interests that I'd rather not cast aside to make room for Wagner. My attention span will only stretch so far


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If you want to have a go at the Ring, start with Rheingold, the shortest of the 4 and the one which I think is the easiest to grasp. While the Solti Rheingold was my entree to the full Ring with its great sound (& sound effects) and some exceptional singing, it isn't any longer.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> Don't get me wrong, I want to get it. I love Solti, and I expect nothing but greatness out of this. I just don't see myself getting through the full cycle any time soon, and thus can't really justify buying it at this point in my life when there is other music a lot more pertinent to my current interests that I'd rather not cast aside to make room for Wagner. My attention span will only stretch so far


I was listening to classical music for 35 years before I bought a Wagner opera, so I can understand wanting to listen to other stuff first. Who knows what kind of listening technology will exist 30 years from now?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Start at Parsifal and work your way backwards.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I got my start with Wagner by the more conventional opera, Der fliegende Holländer. Then went to to Meistersinger and Lohengrin. I have spent a fair amount of time with nine of the big ten and like them all a lot. Just haven't really gotten into Tannhauser yet. The Ring is awesome, but I have a compulsion to listen to the whole ring so find it hard to do only a single opera of the Ring by itself. So one of the Ring's greatest features becomes, for me, it's main drawback--its great length. No matter, I have 4 or 5 Rings on DVD all but one in the not-yet-watched pile. One of these days I'll give it a go.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Although the Ring or Tristan were often blasting through our house (so I was unavoidably acquainted with them), I started (as a teenager) with Die Meistersinger. Mature Wagner but a more conventional opera story.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> *However you do it, you might find yourself hopelessly addicted.* Then you'll have to go see The Ring live, go to Bayreuth and do all the other Wagner-ite stuff. I love it, but it's so hard to find 5 open hours sometime to listen to Meistersinger or Tristan.


That's a serious thing :lol: I think I've listened at least some bit of the Ring almost everyday for over a month. I've started worrying, if it's possible to 'overlisten' the Ring...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^I recommend an act at a time.
Better to absorb everything going on.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> Start at Parsifal and work your way backwards.


Ooh, you are awful, but I like you!


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## Guest (May 27, 2019)

I would like to echo the suggestions made by several others that the best way to proceed for a newcomer is by way of "highlight" discs. I first tried it the "hard" way by listening through the entire operas, but got fed up very quickly. 

I recently revamped my entire Wagner "highlights" material, and have acquired what I consider to be a decent collection in terms of length and quality. In total it amounts to some 10 hrs 40 mins playing time:

1. Rienzi: Overture plus 'Allmacht'ger Vater', (Rienzi's Prayer) (from Act 5) - Sawallisch/Chor der Bayerischen Staatsoper, Bayerisches Staatsorchester
2. Der Fliegende Holländer (highlights) - Levine/Metropolitan Opera
3. Tannhäuser (highlights) - Sinopoli/ Royal Opera House Covent Garden
4. Lohengrin - Abbado/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
*5. Tristan und Isolde - Pappano/Royal Opera House Covent Garden
6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (highlights) - Jochum/Orchester der Deutschen Oper Berlin 
7-10. The Ring (separate highlight CDs for each of the 4 operas) - Janowski/Staatskapelle Dresden
11. Parsifal - Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra

What I like especially is that these versions are well recorded with little if any background noise of any sort.

* In the case of Tristan, I think what I did was to select tracks 1, 5, 9, 10, 12, 19, 27, 33 from the whole CD set as I couldn't find a suitable highlights disc that matched the quality of the Pappano recording.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'd recommend The Ring on DVD (Boulez is my favorite, but you might sample the competition on Youtube before buying)...it'll help you get the story in your head before turning to recordings, and by viewing the whole "epic" cycle you won't miss out on the amazing immersive quality of Wagner's music.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

The time and commitment one needs to give in order to come to enjoy Wagner's immense ouvere scares many people off I imagine. I would simply say: do not be intimidated by Wagner. Before even starting the undertaking you should know that its going to take an investment on your part. But luckily Wagner is an artist who will repay your investement tenfold. 

Sure, you can start by listening to the overtures and orchestral excerpts, and they contain very appealing music that is easy to like. But you aren't really engaging with Wagner's art or realzing its full potential anymore than you would be with Beethoven's if you simply listened to a 10 minute "highlight" disc of his 9th symphony. The key to approaching Wagner is to realize that he is a man of the theater, and his imagination thrived on being able to translate powerful visuals and the essence of a dramatic situation into music. This was his greatest genius, so unless you are totally opposed to engaging with drama by way of music, or get very little out of musical theater, there's no reason why you shouldn't jump right in and experience the operas in their entirety.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> Start at Parsifal and work your way backwards.


I'm still a newbie, but I took to Parsifal immediately from a purely musical aspect. I bought the cheap Kegel live recording re-issued on Brilliant Classics and I love it. It's a high quality recording made in 1975. For under ten dollars it's a steal.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

haydnguy said:


> After a dozen years I'm finally thinking about "tackling" Wagner. The reason I phrase it that way is that I know it's going to take some time to go through his repertoire and truly appreciate it.
> 
> Are there any recordings/pieces that would be a good place to get my feet wet with Wagner?


Don't start by just buying a Ring and working your way through, because the first opera in the Ring isn't so special, it could put you off exploring the rest! Siegfried could be a great place to start, because it's an opera in two halves. Acts 1 and 2 have excellent music in the "middle" Wagner style, and in Act 3 Wagner starts to write in his last, greatest, most cosmic style and it's very special, it's what makes Wagner a great great composer. Also Siegfried is very entertaining, and funny even, it's like an operatic fairy tale.

Siegfried, that's the best place to start.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Don't start by just buying a Ring and working your way through, because the first opera in the Ring isn't so special, it could put you off exploring the rest! Siegfried could be a great place to start, because it's an opera in two halves. Acts 1 and 2 have excellent music in the "middle" Wagner style, and in Act 3 Wagner starts to write in his last, greatest, most cosmic style and it's very special, it's what makes Wagner a great great composer. Also Siegfried is very entertaining, and funny even, it's like an operatic fairy tale.
> 
> Siegfried, that's the best place to start.


Well, hold on. A newcomer to the Ring should understand that the cycle is one continuous narrative, and that there are very good reasons for starting at the beginnig with Das Rheingold. The resonance of Wagner's musical score throughout the four operas builds as he is able to transform musical motifs from the beginning of the cycle all the way through the end. As he recalls key moments musically, we as the audience recall those moments dramatically, and in this way he is able to trancend time and make the past present in our minds.

Everyone has their favorite opera from the Ring -- mine is the finale, Gotterdammerung -- but Rheingold is extraordinary in its own right. From the very opening that is a potent realization in sound of emergence and becoming as a process, the opera surges with a special vitality and harnessed energy.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

But the whole story so far is recapped in Siegfried! 

I agree with you that the overture of Rheingold is nice, shame about the rest.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> But the whole story so far is recapped in Siegfried!


That's a crude overstatement. When The Wanderer and Mime engage in their wisdom contest they recap some basic plot points, but the scene serves a purpose that is removed from "summarizing" the story for the audience. In other words the dialogue is not meant to get the audience caught up with the action, and leaves out so much of what has transpired in the two previous operas that a person would have no real idea about any of the implications of the drama contained in Siegfried and what he represents in the cycle moving forward.



> I agree with you that the overture of Rheingold is nice, shame about the rest.


There's nothing shameful about the rest of the opera. I've talked to many who claim it is their favorite, and it does have a quicksilver quality and ironic bite about it that is absolutely unique among Wagner's operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Start at Parsifal and work your way backwards.


If you want to dive into _Parsifal_ - an adventure that'll be right for some and wrong for others - DO NOT begin by watching this or any other video. Two reasons:

1.) Most stage directors today are obsessed with presenting their own commentaries on Wagner rather than presenting his stories as he instructed, and the results are always in some way contrary to the spirit and meaning of the work.

2.) Wagner's music is so evocative that the images it will summon for an imaginative listener surpass any possible staging.

After you've experienced the music sufficiently, you can look at various productions and judge for yourself how well they represent the opera.

As for recordings, the ones which I find best capture the mystery and profundity of the work are the live Bayreuth performances under Knappertsbusch, recorded between 1951 and 1964. Just march right out and buy the only one recorded in stereo, the 1962 performance on Philips, for the full _Parsifal_ experience. https://www.amazon.com/Parsifal-Ric...47&s=music&sprefix=parsifal+kn,aps,218&sr=1-1 If you're allergic to live recordings (you'll have to tolerate a few audience noises as they settle in during the Knappertsbusch), the best version is probably the Kubelik, with honorable mention going to Barenboim, Solti and Karajan. I can't recommend the Boulez or the inexpensive Kegel; both have casting weaknesses and both indulge in some overly fast tempos. If you're in a hurry, _Parsifal_ is not for you.


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## infracave (May 14, 2019)

Might be a stupid question but how can non-german speakers best enjoy wagner ?

Do you have some kind of double subtitles, one in german and one in english ?
I mean, the libretto ought to be important, as Wagner himself wrote it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

infracave said:


> Might be a stupid question but how can non-german speakers best enjoy wagner ?
> 
> Do you have some kind of double subtitles, one in german and one in english ?
> I mean, the libretto ought to be important, as Wagner himself wrote it.


Recordings generally come with side-by-side German/English librettos, you can find these online as well, and some videos have subtitles.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Recordings generally come with side-by-side German/English librettos, you can find these online as well, and some videos have subtitles.


In addition, what really helped me to understand the Ring was Boulez with English subtitles (though I had listened to the Ring already before so I had an understanding of the music in general). Really helps to make connections between the libretto and the music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

infracave said:


> Might be a stupid question but how can non-german speakers best enjoy wagner ?
> 
> Do you have some kind of double subtitles, one in german and one in english ?
> I mean, the libretto ought to be important, as Wagner himself wrote it.


You follow the libretto as it's being sung. It's very easy to do. The second time you listen you need to follow much less because so much of the story is in your head, you know what they're singing about more or less. Subsequent times even less so.

Following the libretto the first time may appear daunting if you've never done it, all I can say is that, in my case, it was absolutely fine, a pleasure in fact.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

OperaChic said:


> That's a crude overstatement. When The Wanderer and Mime engage in their wisdom contest they recap some basic plot points, but the scene serves a purpose that is removed from "summarizing" the story for the audience. In other words the dialogue is *not meant to get the audience caught up with the action,* and leaves out so much of what has transpired in the two previous operas that a person would have no real idea about any of the implications of the drama contained in Siegfried and what he represents in the cycle moving forward.
> 
> There's nothing shameful about the rest of the opera. I've talked to many who claim it is their favorite, and it does have a quicksilver quality and ironic bite about it that is absolutely unique among Wagner's operas.


Action? What action? The scene between Mime and the Wanderer is an absolute pain and should have been removed. The whole of the first two acts of Siegfried is male (wood bird apart) and the squawking Mime and the Wanderer's bass tones set the teeth of edge much of the time in their scene together. Pity as the prelude is absolutely superb but what follows is Siegfried's bullying of Mime (pretty repugnant even if the dwarf is repugnant) and then the Wasnderer scene which holds up the action. Go straight into the forging scene for a bit of excitement for goodness sake! Someone is asking where to start not how to be put off!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Action? What action? The scene between Mime and the Wanderer is an absolute pain and should have been removed. The whole of the first two acts of Siegfried is male (wood bird apart) and the squawking Mime and the Wanderer's bass tones set the teeth of edge much of the time in their scene together. Pity as the prelude is absolutely superb but what follows is Siegfried's bullying of Mime (pretty repugnant even if the dwarf is repugnant) and then the Wasnderer scene which holds up the action. Go straight into the forging scene for a bit of excitement for goodness sake!


Personal preferences I suppose... I love the Wanderer/Mime 'wisdom contest'!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Action? What action? The scene between Mime and the Wanderer is an absolute pain and should have been removed. The whole of the first two acts of Siegfried is male (wood bird apart) and the squawking Mime and the Wanderer's bass tones set the teeth of edge much of the time in their scene together. Pity as the prelude is absolutely superb but what follows is Siegfried's bullying of Mime (pretty repugnant even if the dwarf is repugnant) and then the Wasnderer scene which holds up the action. Go straight into the forging scene for a bit of excitement for goodness sake! Someone is asking where to start not how to be put off!


This person wants to know how to get into Wagner, and your idea of helping him is to disparage Wagner's work and prove your inability either to appreciate it or to respect those who can.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Action? What action? The scene between Mime and the Wanderer is an absolute pain and should have been removed. The whole of the first two acts of Siegfried is male (wood bird apart) and the squawking Mime and the Wanderer's bass tones set the teeth of edge much of the time in their scene together. Pity as the prelude is absolutely superb but what follows is Siegfried's bullying of Mime (pretty repugnant even if the dwarf is repugnant) and then the Wasnderer scene which holds up the action. Go straight into the forging scene for a bit of excitement for goodness sake! Someone is asking where to start not how to be put off!


You completely misread my comment. I was not claiming the Mime/Wanderer scene was full of action, but was referring to the action (the dramatic occurences seen and heard) during the previous two operas. But I'm pretty sure you just wanted an excuse to jump in with one of your notorious anti-Wagner diatribes. Mission accomplished.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

infracave said:


> Might be a stupid question but how can non-german speakers best enjoy wagner ?
> 
> Do you have some kind of double subtitles, one in german and one in english ?
> I mean, the libretto ought to be important, as Wagner himself wrote it.


Purists will hate this, but Sir Reginald Goodall made quite a career of conducting the operas in English. His Ring is excellent musically and nothing to be ashamed of. There are two catches: sometimes the singers' diction isn't as good as you would hope and it's hard to understand. The other is that you can understand it and sometimes English translations of German seem silly, trite and odd. 








Then there's the only way to really, truly absorb the music - not pay any attention to the words in a printed libretto or in subtitles. When you get to know an opera well enough, you no longer need those crutches. Reading, and that means eyes are active, uses a lot of brain power, and the timesharing with the ears means you can't really just listen. Granted, knowing something like the Ring so well is no small task, but give it time.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I love Siegfried. It's the Ring opera I listen to the most.
The music is magnificent.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Purists will hate this, but Sir Reginald Goodall made quite a career of conducting the operas in English. His Ring is excellent musically and nothing to be ashamed of. There are two catches: sometimes the singers' diction isn't as good as you would hope and it's hard to understand. The other is that you can understand it and sometimes English translations of German seem silly, trite and odd.
> View attachment 119089
> 
> 
> Then there's the only way to really, truly absorb the music - not pay any attention to the words in a printed libretto or in subtitles. When you get to know an opera well enough, you no longer need those crutches. Reading, and that means eyes are active, uses a lot of brain power, and the timesharing with the ears means you can't really just listen. Granted, knowing something like the Ring so well is no small task, but give it time.


I doubt many purists hate it because it is sung in English -- its actually an excellent way to get to know the Ring more intimately. Most of the divided opinion on this set seems to revolve around the snaillike tempos. Not that I'm one to be so rigid on matters of tempo, but this interpretation is leisurely to put it mildly.

I've lived with and experienced all of Wagner's operas for years, and still read along with the libretto as I listen. I don't view it as a crutch at all. It only enhnaces my enjoyment; the words and music compliment each other at every level.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

OperaChic said:


> You completely misread my comment. I was not claiming the Mime/Wanderer scene was full of action, but was referring to the action (the dramatic occurences seen and heard) during the previous two operas. But I'm pretty sure you just wanted an excuse to jump in with one of your notorious anti-Wagner diatribes. Mission accomplished.


I'm sorry to misread your comment but you did use the word 'action' which is not present in Mime / Siegfried. I am giving my opinion which I thought one was allowed to do here without being called 'notorious'. Just looking at the OP who is asking about where to start, I think the Mime / Wanderer is not a good place to start. You might think it wonderful but surely even you could see it's not a good starting point.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> Personal preferences I suppose... I love the Wanderer/Mime 'wisdom contest'!!


Most opinions given here are personal preference. I thought that was taken for granted.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Richard Wagner ✠ PARSIFAL ✠


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

infracave said:


> Might be a stupid question but how can non-german speakers best enjoy wagner ?
> 
> Do you have some kind of double subtitles, one in german and one in english ?
> I mean, the libretto ought to be important, as Wagner himself wrote it.


Learn German! And Germanic mythology.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> Richard Wagner ✠ PARSIFAL ✠


Syberberg's film is interesting to watch but is an eccentric takeoff on _Parsifal._ It is NOT the place to start with this opera. Save it for when you know the work well.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Syberberg's film is interesting to watch but is an eccentric takeoff on _Parsifal._ It is NOT the place to start with this opera. Save it for when you know the work well.


Why do you think he has a sex change half way through?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Why do you think he has a sex change half way through?


:lol::lol::lol:

I can speculate that it's because Wagner wore silk underwear.

As Kundry says to Gurnemanz, "Fragt nicht weiter! Ich bin müde." (Ask no further. I am weary)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> If you want to dive into _Parsifal_ - an adventure that'll be right for some and wrong for others - DO NOT begin by watching this or any other video. Two reasons:
> 
> 1.) Most stage directors today are obsessed with presenting their own commentaries on Wagner rather than presenting his stories as he instructed, and the results are always in some way contrary to the spirit and meaning of the work.
> 
> ...


I'll get the stereo Knapp, as everyone seems to recommend it. Since the Kegel is the only one I have, I've nothing to compare it to, so for now it sounds fine.


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## Guest (May 27, 2019)

I hope that the OP is able to make sense of all the advice that has been offered so far in this thread on how best to proceed with becoming familiar with Wagner's music. I trust he/she will take note of the general view that highlight CDs are the best way to proceed.

In my case, when researching a new composer, I usually go to a classical music web site like Arkiv or Presto where they list all of the works of each composer in a rough order of popularity. I next decide which works to acquire based on the kind of music I am looking for, whether solo instrument, chamber, orchestral, choral etc. Finally, I select a recording based on recommendations given by the likes of Gramophone, Penguin, and the BBC. Over quite a few years, I have found this process to be both reliable and very simple.

I suspect that the OP, who is evidently no novice having been into classical music for 12 years, knows this kind of procedure already but just fancied creating a thread on the topic of Wagner. That, of course, is fine because it gives other members who have less experience and knowledge on the composer in question the opportunity to pick up a few tips. Further, it is always nice to hear other people’s opinions on good recordings etc, as there is monopoly of good advice on things like this. The problem is that such discussions can, after a while, sometimes become rather argumentative and sterile, with very little further useful information to be gained.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Partita said:


> I hope that the OP is able to make sense of all the advice that has been offered so far in this thread on how best to proceed with becoming familiar with Wagner's music. I trust he/she will take note of the general view that highlight CDs are the best way to proceed.


I'm not sure if there is a general consensus, on this thread or otherwise. Highlight CDs aren't necessarily the best way to start with Wagner any more than they are with other composers, especially if the person enjoys opera. It all comes down to the individual: what they are looking to get out of the experience and the kind of music and art forms they are predisposed to. Personally, the prospect of bleeding chunks held very little appeal for me. I started with The Flying Dutchman and worked my way through the operas chronologically. I was hooked and never looked back.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

WildThing said:


> I'm not sure if there is a general consensus, on this thread or otherwise. Highlight CDs aren't necessarily the best way to start with Wagner any more than they are with other composers, especially if the person enjoys opera. It all comes down to the individual: what they are looking to get out of the experience and the kind of music and art forms they are predisposed to. Personally, the prospect of bleeding chunks held very little appeal for me. I started with The Flying Dutchman and worked my way through the operas chronologically. I was hooked and never looked back.


I agree completely. Don't fiddle-faddle with this leviathan! Although the first Wagner I heard in my teen years was a variety of overtures, interludes, etc., and though I was enchanted and continued to enjoy them, I was fascinated by the mythological content of his stories and dove into the complete operas very quickly. Nothing in my life since has been more spellbinding than that early immersion in Wagner's vast, magical worlds, and the longer I know them the more they reveal to me. Get an early start.


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## Guest (May 27, 2019)

WildThing said:


> I'm not sure if there is a general consensus, on this thread or otherwise. Highlight CDs aren't necessarily the best way to start with Wagner any more than they are with other composers, especially if the person enjoys opera. It all comes down to the individual: what they are looking to get out of the experience and the kind of music and art forms they are predisposed to. Personally, the prospect of bleeding chunks held very little appeal for me. I started with The Flying Dutchman and worked my way through the operas chronologically. I was hooked and never looked back.


I rather thought that there was more of a consensus than you appear to concede. Consensus or not, I still believe that recommending the full operas to an opera newbie is risky, and could involve a lot of disappointment.

If one is already an opera addict but not familiar with the work of one particular opera composer, then I guess what you say might be a better procedure. However, I assume that the OP is not an opera addict, otherwise he would very likely have become familiar with Wagner well before now.

Given that he/she has been interested in classical music for 12 years, and is seeking advice advice on how to start with WagnerIn fact, it's rather more likely that he/she is somewhat nervous about delving too deeply into this area without some initial testing of the waters.

A common criticism of Wagner's operas is that many are too long. This has been the case almost from the time they were first written. For me personally, I found all of the full operas to be too long for comfort. In fact, I would say that there are large chunks that are downright boring. The "highlight" CDs that I referred to earlier amount to nearly 11 hours of music, so they do involve quite a substantial amount of the various operas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

With CDs so cheap I'd recommend a Ring highlights. One example for less than a quid second hand:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Rin...g+solti&qid=1558984008&s=gateway&sr=8-9-spell

There are stacks of other highlights but this is one of the best. Gives you a feel for what RW is all about. Don't for goodness sake go for complete operas as it is like a non-swimmer jumping in at the deep end.


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## Guest (May 27, 2019)

DavidA said:


> With CDs so cheap I'd recommend a Ring highlights. One example for less than a quid second hand:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Rin...g+solti&qid=1558984008&s=gateway&sr=8-9-spell
> 
> There are stacks of other highlights but this is one of the best. Gives you a feel for what RW is all about. *Don't for goodness sake go for complete operas as it is like a non-swimmer jumping in at the deep end*.


That's exactly what I and several others have said, so I agree entirely.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Partita said:


> I rather thought that there was more of a consensus than you appear to concede. Consensus or not, I still believe that recommending the full operas to an opera newbie is risky, and could involve a lot of disappointment.
> 
> If one is already an opera addict but not familiar with the work of one particular opera composer, then I guess what you say might be a better procedure. However, I assume that the OP is not an opera addict, otherwise he would very likely have become familiar with Wagner well before now.
> 
> ...


If someone is new to opera and wants to find out if they could enjoy Wagner or any other opera, there's only one way to find out: experience it yourself! I'm with OperaChic and Woodduck; all this hand holding and wading in slowly for fear of scaring someone off is a little silly. Wagner was an opera composer, no need to try to hide that fact. If one tries out an opera and is bored by the experience, the extracts and overtures will always be there and can be enjoyed in their own right.

Critics of Wagner's works are disposed to say that they are too long, but this is the consequence of dislike, not its ground. Naturally those who dislike them are going to find them too long. Some passages can be recognized even by enthusiasts as unneccessary (though it is not easy to get agreement on which they are), but none of the mature works is seriously too long for what it is trying to do. Given your remarks in a thread regarding Verdi that storylines in opera are unimportant to you and you are primarily interested in the music and voices, its no surprise Wagner doesn't hold a lot of appeal to you. But it's very possible that someone can take to opera immediately, even if they have no prior experience of it. I know from experience.

When I wanted to experience an opera for the first time, some 15 years ago, I bought the tickets and got a recording of the opera I was about to attend from the library to prep myself for the performance. I was mesmerized and got caught up in the soaring emotions and interplay of words, music and drama from the opening notes.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

starthrower said:


> I'll get the stereo Knapp, as everyone seems to recommend it. Since the Kegel is the only one I have, I've nothing to compare it to, so for now it sounds fine.


There are a couple of very good DVDs of Parsifal.
The Stein is a traditional approach.
The Levine is a beautiful production with a good cast.

Stein's conducting is very good, moves along, and so is the cast.
The production is beautiful.
Levine's is a gorgeous production. Great cast. Moves at a slower pace then Stein.

Both very nice.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Not all "bleeding chunks" are the same, or even instrumental, so cherry-picking them can be fruitful ha...




























you can't judge a CD by the cover...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Four pages of responses and no one thinks that the best way in to Wagner is Maestersinger.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> ... because the first opera in the Ring isn't so special, it could put you off exploring the rest!


I couldn't disagree more, I believe Rheingold is an excellent place to start. It is less intimidating for the newbie than many parts of any of the rest of the opera partly because it was Wagner's first step in composing the Ring. Also at 1.5 to 2 hours less than any of the others but with many fascinating sections, is easier to digest.


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## Guest (May 27, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Four pages of responses and no one thinks that the best way in to Wagner is Maestersinger.


If I had to choose one it would be Lohengrin.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Four pages of responses and no one thinks that the best way in to Wagner is Maestersinger.


Perhaps his most thorougly melodious work, though somewhat of an outlier in many respects. I mean I think its very possible that someone who hates Parsifal could love Die Meistersinger, and vice versa. I think Enthusiast said some pages back that this is the first opera of Wagner's he really came to know. But the idea of "best" is a bit of a red herring here.


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## Guest (May 27, 2019)

WildThing said:


> If someone is new to opera and wants to find out if they could enjoy Wagner or any other opera, there's only one way to find out: experience it yourself! I'm with OperaChic and Woodduck; all this hand holding and wading in slowly for fear of scaring someone off is a little silly. Wagner was an opera composer, no need to try to hide that fact. If one tries out an opera and is bored by the experience, the extracts and overtures will always be there and can be enjoyed in their own right.
> 
> Critics of Wagner's works are disposed to say that they are too long, but this is the consequence of dislike, not its ground. Naturally those who dislike them are going to find them too long. Some passages can be recognized even by enthusiasts as unneccessary (though it is not easy to get agreement on which they are), but none of the mature works is seriously too long for what it is trying to do. Given your remarks in a thread regarding Verdi that storylines in opera are unimportant to you and you are primarily interested in the music and voices, its no surprise Wagner doesn't hold a lot of appeal to you. But it's very possible that someone can take to opera immediately, even if they have no prior experience of it. I know from experience.
> 
> When I wanted to experience an opera for the first time, some 15 years ago, I bought the tickets and got a recording of the opera I was about to attend from the library to prep myself for the performance. I was mesmerized and got caught up in the soaring emotions and interplay of words, music and drama from the opening notes.


I disagree. If someone who had never experienced it before asks for advice on a possible sea cruise, I assume that one wouldn't suggest a round the world trip for 3 months on the Queen Mary. A week in the Caribbean or the Med or the Baltic would be enough for most people to enable them to decide if they like it.

I don't believe that my attitude towards opera is much different from that of a typical person who frequents this Forum, or others like it. Opera isn't for everyone and I would guess it's one of the less popular sub-genres of classical music.

But that doesn't mean they people either love opera or hate it completely, as you appear to assume. There are clearly several intermediate positions. I'm somewhere in the middle, in that I enjoy opera in moderation. As I have said, I find it difficult to sit through hours of the same work when they are very long. My main interest is the music itself, not the details of the plots.

In the case of Wagner, I do like his work but only in the manner I have described. Opera buffs like yourself should perhaps take a less fanatical approach and stop criticising those, like me, who do not share your passion to the same degree, by suggesting that they are basically "dislikers" of opera who are mainly out simply to make negative comments. This is simply untrue.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Becca said:


> I couldn't disagree more, I believe Rheingold is an excellent place to start. It is less intimidating for the newbie than many parts of any of the rest of the opera partly because it was Wagner's first step in composing the Ring. Also at 1.5 to 2 hours less than any of the others but with many fascinating sections, is easier to digest.


I totally agree! Das Rheingold isn't as heavy as Götterdämmerung for example, but it's still very 'Wagnerian' opera. Also, Die Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung don't make any sense if you haven't listened to Das Rheingold.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Partita said:


> I disagree. If someone who had never experienced it before asks for advice on a possible sea cruise, I assume that one wouldn't suggest a round the world trip for 3 months on the Queen Mary. A week in the Caribbean or the Med or the Baltic would be enough for most people to enable them to decide if they like it.
> 
> I don't believe that my attitude towards opera is much different from that of a typical person who frequents this Forum, or others like it. Opera isn't for everyone and I would guess it's one of the less popular sub-genres of classical music.
> 
> ...


I'm not criticizing you at all. You are taking offense where none was meant and you are putting words into my mouth. I simply made an observation that every indivdual is going to have a different journey, and there is no one size fits all approach. Throughout this thread, just as many if not more users suggested beginning with an opera or operas as those who suggested starting with highlights. In the end it depends on the OP: only they know what the best approach is for them.

But enjoying various orchestral passages, segments of the works and arias as abstract music in not going to be much of an indicator as to whether someone is going to enjoy the operas in their entirety. You yourself are proof of that. And that's ok, there's nothing wrong with enjoying extracts but not whole works. However the point is that the idea of "prepping" oneself doesn't really work: listening to chunks and listening to whole operas are very different experiences, and sooner or later you gotta find out how you feel about opera by watching or listening to the operas themselves.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

annaw said:


> I totally agree! Das Rheingold isn't as heavy as Götterdämmerung for example, but it's still very 'Wagnerian' opera. Also, Die Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung don't make any sense if you haven't listened to Das Rheingold.


One of the reasons I feel so negatively about it is Scene 2, which seems to go on for such a long time and doesn't seem to contain much interesting music. Also, just when you think it's all over, when they cross the rainbow bridge, you find you've still got another good 20 minutes to sit through. Oh misery me!

The last time I saw it was about 15 years ago (time flies, it's scary!) a concert performance, Rattle conducting, with an amazing Alberich who stole the show, Oleg Bryjak.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I "learned" (google translated in cooperation with english/german libretto to more precisely know each individual word) the german in a few favorite scenes, and it enhanced my enjoyment significantly. Like at least by twice as much. The greatest music ever is probably worth just learning the language - just wanted to throw in my support for that sentiment. It makes the speech-like singing a lot more palatable, and it's just so much more fun to roar along with lines like _"Nicht send' ich dich mehr aus WAAAAAALHAAL!!!_" when you know what it means.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I'll second the Solti _Ring_ for a newbie. Some great singing, and spectacular sonics.
> 
> _Parsifal_ deters some and captivates others. If you're ready to leave the world behind and go into an altered state for 4 1/4 hours, go for the masterly 1962 Knappertsbusch from Bayreuth - a true classic, live from Wagner's own theater, in fine sound (moderately priced) - or, for state of the art studio sonics, the Kubelik (expensive).


This is very good to hear. My teacher recently, very generously, began passing on to me a massive volume of his personal CDs, including his box set of Solti's Ring with Vienna, the really nice set with the black covers. I wondered if this was considered one of the "great" recordings of the Ring, or at least if it got your seal of approval, though maybe I should suppose those are congruent things. 

I've also been interested in starting my Wagner exploration lately. Hope it doesn't all go over my head. My exposure is essentially limited to the overtures I've played - _The Flying Dutchman_, and _The Meistersingers,_ one of the most, if not the most integral orchestral excerpt I have on tuba. I've also played the first act of _Die Walkure_ as a ringer at what will be my college, which was dreadfully scarce as my part went - it really became olympic bar-counting, not that I wasn't sitting in the back in the dark during my _tacits_ feeling entranced by the singers. I did get to help out with that one very menacing leitmotiv - for a character named Hunding, maybe? I digress. My exposure is patchy and partial, is my point.

My teacher also gave me Solti's _Tristan_, and Barenboim's _Lohengrin._ I'll have to double check whether he gave me a _Parsifal_, I doubt one was not mixed in there.

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I haven't even checked out the rest of the thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Minor Sixthist said:


> I've also been interested in starting my Wagner exploration lately. Hope it doesn't all go over my head. My exposure is essentially limited to the overtures I've played - _The Flying Dutchman_, and _The Meistersingers,_ one of the most, if not the most integral orchestral excerpt I have on tuba. I've also played the first act of _Die Walkure_ as a ringer at what will be my college, which was dreadfully scarce as my part went - it really became olympic bar-counting, not that I wasn't sitting in the back in the dark during my _tacits_ feeling entranced by the singers. I did get to help out with that one very menacing leitmotiv - for a character named Hunding, maybe? I digress. My exposure is patchy and partial, is my point.
> 
> Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I haven't even checked out the rest of the thread.


A tubist! Yes, in _Walkure_ you get to play a brutal barbarian who forces a fair maiden into marriage. I guess you've recently learned from the "Misogyny on the Podium" thread that Hunding's behavior is the inevitable product of genetic evolution. I'm not sure what her desire to elope with her brother is the product of. Maybe Viking feminist ideology.

See? Wagner isn't so difficult.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Wagner is really hot these days here on TC.

My only warning is that Wagner still to this day has his community of 'religious' followers, who will overly kindly invite you to his church and give you all kinds of guidance for listening and are most willingly giving an exegesis of each individual note and word. But it is no free ride. If for some reason you would not follow and convert into a religious (uncritical) Wagnerite yourself, which is for them to decide, some of these disciples are ready to stone you or bury you alive. Wagner luckily is the only composer who had this weird effect on some people as Karajan is the only conductor. Historically proven fact: Wagner=War.

Having said this, Wagners music alone can sure be loved and listened to without this fanatic religious connection. If you are ready to dive into a fairy tale world, Wagner offers you the best ride. It requires seat meat and patience, but if you can stand it, you will be rewarded.

For starters, I would suggest 'Die Meistersinger', as the story is quite joyful and light and the music is absolutely beautiful.

If you like it, a next move could be Tristan & Isolde, a tragic love story where (spoiler alert!) both lovers die in the end. But the famous 'Liebestod' of Isolde is a highlight of classical music, a Mount Everest for any soprano.

My next recommendation would be Parsifal, as it offers Wagners twisted take on religion. However, you now enter dangerous waters, as Wagner and religion are both controversial, so a combination of the two is.....:devil:

The Ring would only come next, as this is the Harry Potter of Wagner, a twisted take on German mythology, with a lot of deep dark forests and everything you could fantasize if you would walk there alone at night. As Harry Potter or the Lord of the Rings, also Wagners Ring is a veeery long ride. It reduces the already 3-4 hours each of my earlier recommendations into a prelude. Personally, I prefer a walk through a real dark forest over the aimless megalomaniac mazelike storylines of Wagner, Rawling or Tolkien.

As to recordings, if you want an affordable and high quality start, I would go for Daniel Barenboims full Wagner (34 CD!) set







Everything is there, the quality of music and sonics is really great.

Once you digged all of this and want some diversification, you will end up with older (even mono!) recordings and in hotheaded freakish discussions which never stop. My takes at this are:
Meistersinger/Karajan (Schwarzkopf)
Parsifal/Knappertsbusch 1962
Tristan&Isolde/ Carlos Kleiber (1976 bootleg opera depot or 1980 studio DG)
Ring/Solti (or Boulez on DVD)

Good luck on your Wagner safari, just don't take it too seriously:cheers:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> Wagner is really hot these days here on TC.
> 
> My only warning is that Wagner still has his community of 'religious' followers, who will overly kindly invite you to his church and give you all kinds of guidance for listening and are ready to do an exegesis of each individual note and word. But if for some reason you would not follow and convert into a religious (uncritical) Wagnerite yourself, which is for them to decide, some of the disciples are ready to stone you or bury you alive. Wagner luckily is the only composer who had this weird effect on some people and *Karajan the only conductor.*
> 
> ...


Agree with most of this however I would say that most of the disciples of Wagner of the true faith don't appear to like Karajan as he represented something of a radical shift from the old school Wagner conducting as exemplified by Knappersbusch and others. (It is also desirable to listen to singers of previous generations through the crackle of 78s!)

I would also echo the last phrase - enjoy the Wagner safari but don't take it too seriously. This is opera not some sort of religion, even if Wagner wanted to make it one! :lol:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Agree with most of this however I would say that most of the disciples of Wagner of the true faith don't appear to like Karajan as he represented something of a radical shift from the old school Wagner conducting as exemplified by Knappertsbusch and others.


Huh? Who on earth are these "disciples of Wagner of the true faith"? And I know dozens of ardent Wagnerians who think that Knappertsbusch was a sloppy, lazy hack. Have you ever read, for example, any of William Youngren's reviews (he has written Wagner reviews for Fanfare for years) of Knappertsbusch's live Wagner recordings?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

NLAdriaan said:


> As to recordings, if you want an affordable and high quality start, I would go for Daniel Barenboims full Wagner (34 CD!) set
> View attachment 119852


This, I expect, would have a lot of *Waltraud Meier*, one of my favorite Wagner singers!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

NLAdriaan said:


> Wagner is really hot these days here on TC.
> 
> My only warning is that Wagner still to this day has his community of 'religious' followers, who will overly kindly invite you to his church and give you all kinds of guidance for listening and are most willingly giving an exegesis of each individual note and word. But it is no free ride. If for some reason you would not follow and convert into a religious (uncritical) Wagnerite yourself, which is for them to decide, some of these disciples are ready to stone you or bury you alive. Wagner luckily is the only composer who had this weird effect on some people as Karajan is the only conductor. Historically proven fact: Wagner=War.
> 
> Good luck on your Wagner safari, just don't take it too seriously:cheers:


Wagner is "really hot" on TC - but WATCH OUT! Don't take him "too seriously"!

Um...How's that again?

"Advice" like this will do more to put people off Wagner than any supposedly "excessive" enthusiasm expressed by those who love his work. _Of course_ Wagner is really hot on TC! He's really hot, period. He is, by any relevant standard, one of a handful of major movers and shakers in the history of music, as well as a figure whose influence on the culture, uniquely for a composer, extended to fields beyond music and opera. So who's got a problem with that?

But - OK, this is an issue. Contrary to what's being suggested here, people who know and love Wagner's works understand the difficulties they can present to the newcomer. They're complex musically, dramatically, and philosophically, and there is meaning to be discovered in them that won't reveal itself right away. Unfortunately, one of the things that most intimidates people new to Wagner is not the operas themselves but the cultural baggage that encrusts them like barnacles, slowing down what could otherwise be a smooth sail. A lot of nonsense has been, and is still, spoken and written about Wagner, most of it not by his admirers but by people who think the crazy little genius is somehow a threat to the body politic, or at least to their mental or emotional equilibrium. It's amusing that a composer who's been gone for 135 years, and whose work is central to our musical tradition and immensely popular, can still make people so nervous that they have to warn us against him and his "religious followers," as if Wagner lovers were hoping to lead the uninitiated like lemmings over the precipice.

Well, I have some advice too: forget silly warnings about "religious" Wagner fans! If you listen and find that Wagner's rich, sensuous music appeals to you, that his mythological stories excite your imagination, and that you want to dig deeper into his work, come on over to the opera forum at TC and look into some of the many Wagner threads, where people who know the operas well will be happy to discuss any aspect of them to the limits of their knowledge and beyond. The great, and almost unique, thing about Wagner's operas is that you can investigate them as far as you want and still feel, after years of unfolding pleasure, that there's more to discover. Wagner rewards both the beginner and the veteran; I still find, after more than half a century of knowing the operas and thinking about them, that there are things Wagner is doing musically and dramatically which I've never before heard or considered in quite the same way.

Really, what does anyone hope to achieve by advising us not to take a love of art "too seriously"? Is it a concern for the fate of our immortal souls? I say that mortal flesh has no time to waste! Take your musical passion as seriously as you like - make it a lifetime's study if you're so moved - and have a glorious good time doing it.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I'd suggest a disc like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000E3SJ

Well stocked hour of highlights from various operas that you can buy used for a buck or two. I wouldn't go with a purely instrumental compilation, you aren't really experiencing Wagner if you're not listening to singing.

As a next step, I'd get a Ring highlights disc, specifically this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000041EJ/

Again, can be bought used for a couple of bucks, and the nice thing about the Bohm Ring highlights is that it's two very well filled cd's of around 2.5 hours instead of just one cd like the Solti or Karajan highlights discs--that extra length really helps to give you a better feel for the whole cycle.

I'd also suggest not engaging with online posters who repeat the same things over and over, and seem to be purely motivated to elicit particular types of responses.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Really, the simplest way to get into Wagner is read synopses of each opera then pick the one that interests you most. Get a DVD with subtitles and watch it. My path was the more conventional Flying Dutchman, followed by Meistersinger, then Lohengrin. I think it was Parsifal next, then the Ring. Tristan was the last one, and I have yet to really get into Tannhäuser, but have a DVD in my unwatched pile.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner is "really hot" on TC - but WATCH OUT! Don't take him "too seriously"!
> 
> Um...How's that again?
> 
> ...


Hello everyone: Wagner just re-wrote/twisted some old stories and composed some music with it. A bit megalomaniac, helped financially by the the weirdest of Kings, Ludwig II, who was declared insane afterwards. Without Ludwig II, there would likely be no Ring or Parsifal and no Bayreuth. The Ring, in all its supposed grandeur, hosts all kinds of abusive sexual relationships like incest and pedophilia. And Parsifal is just a twist on religious stories, anyone with a little knowledge of the Bible could have written. It sure takes a nerve to rewrite religion to your own liking, but it is of all times. L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon gave it a go and got a lot of vulnerable followers.

So, do I want to spoil the party for Wagner-newbies? Not at all, I just want to say what I think about this composer.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> Hello everyone: Wagner just re-wrote/twisted some old stories and composed some music with it.


Count me among those who appreciate Wagner's music, but who have not the slightest interest in his religious, philosophical or social views, and whether or not any of these features can be identified in his operas.

That's not to say that I haven't looked into any of these wider aspects. On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with the subject, having been around music boards like this one for many years, and having seen dozens of threads on Wagner, covering different angles of his work. From all of this, I have never felt the slightest inclination to adjust my opinion of his work, either for the better or the worse.

The more hard-core fans of Wagner will probably say that it's rewarding to explore these wider aspects, in order to obtain a deeper appreciation of his work. That's fine for them if that's what they believe, but I doubt that the average individual who likes classical music needs to treat Wagner any differently from any other great composer they happen to admire.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Partita said:


> *Count me among those who appreciate Wagner's music, but who have not the slightest interest in his religious, philosophical or social views, and whether or not any of these features can be identified in his operas.
> *
> That's not to say that I haven't looked into any of these wider aspects. On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with the subject, having been around music boards like this one for many years, and having seen dozens of threads on Wagner, covering different angles of his work. From all of this, I have never felt the slightest inclination to adjust my opinion of his work, either for the better or the worse.
> 
> The more hard-more fans of Wagner will probably say that it's rewarding to explore these wider aspects, in order to obtain a deeper appreciation of his work. That's fine for them if that's what they believe, but I doubt that the average individual who likes classical music needs to treat Wagner any differently from any other great composer they happen to admire.


I fully agree, I also truly like Wagners music, period.

As the man also wrote the words and like no other composer was obsessive about every detail of his 'Gesamtkunstwerk', it is hard to ignore that the words say something about his worldviews, of which he obviously had many, including some pretty weird ones. Therefore, I tend to just enjoy the music and expressly stay away from the 'quicksand of deeper thoughts'. Does it for me!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I would say Lohengrin. It is Wagner's last Romantic opera and an effective bridge between his younger years as a composer when he was influenced by people like Meyerbeer and the composer with a vision that would yield works that shook the foundation of Western music after the mid-19th Century beginning with Das Rheingold. In many ways, Lohengrin contains fingerprints of the mature, visionary Wagner who composed the Ring Cycle and other operas that follow.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It's not that difficult. Pick an opera (there's only 10 to worry about, 7 by some counts), and then listen to the beginning. Then the middle, and finally the end.

If you're not "getting it" you're hanging onto this little thing and it's preventing you from enjoying it. Let it go. "It" being reality. Let _reality _go, and just get into the music. Nobody is impressed by Wagner when they hold him out at arms length. Moderation is the enemy here, give yourself to _obsession_. You need to get up all inside it and let it take hold of you, let the music become you. Wagner is total art. An all-encompassing experience! Ride on the wave of the world's breath!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Couchie, I love your profile pic.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Couchie, I love your profile pic.


Thank you. It underlines the seriousness of my posts.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Paedophilia in the Ring? Eh?

Where?

Overactive imagination I fear.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> Paedophilia in the Ring? Eh?
> 
> Where?
> 
> Overactive imagination I fear.


The ideas in Wagner's operas aren't half as weird as the ideas others project onto them I've noticed.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

MaxKellerman said:


> The ideas in Wagner's operas aren't half as weird as the ideas others project onto them I've noticed.


Sorry guys, its only adultery and incest, my mistake.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> Sorry guys, its only adultery and incest, my mistake.


Over-enthusiastic lost in quicksand?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

NLAdriaan said:


> Sorry guys, its only adultery and incest, my mistake.


Not a "mistake," just another gleeful attempt to disparage and trivialize.

In mythology, marriage between siblings is a common theme. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_folklore_and_mythology


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> Sorry guys, its only adultery and incest, my mistake.


You forgot grand larceny and murder.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

NLAdriaan said:


> Sorry guys, its only adultery and incest, my mistake.


And don't forget the forced marriage. That can't be good.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It's OK to listen to Wagner, but if you actually _enjoy _him, head on down to the opera forum where we hold Wagnerholics Anonymous meetings and refrain from judgement. Too much anti-Wagner claptrap up here in the general section.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2019)

Couchie said:


> It's not that difficult. Pick an opera (there's only 10 to worry about, 7 by some counts), and then listen to the beginning. Then the middle, and finally the end.


I like this recommendation best - plus those who've suggested specific recordings. It points out the obvious - a good story usually needs to be told in the right order and in its entirety. It _may _have helped me to have heard snippets of Ode To Joy by incidental means, but eventually, I had to listen to the whole of the 9th, from the beginning, appreciate the complete work, and recognise that the Ode is not the sole climax!

The notion of listening to anything called "bleeding chunks" is quite off-putting, so I'll skip that, thanks


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2019)

MacLeod said:


> I like this recommendation best - plus those who've suggested specific recordings. It points out the obvious - a good story usually needs to be told in the right order and in its entirety. It _may _have helped me to have heard snippets of Ode To Joy by incidental means, but eventually, I had to listen to the whole of the 9th, from the beginning, appreciate the complete work, and recognise that the Ode is not the sole climax!
> 
> The notion of listening to anything called "bleeding chunks" is quite off-putting, so I'll skip that, thanks


I'd be interested to see your honest assessment after listening through a Wagner opera in its entirety. I hope you'll enjoy it all, but if you find that it's too long there is an alternative to merely listening to "bleeding chunks" which I agree is not very sensible. As I mentioned before in this thread, there are "highlight" CDs of each of the main operas which give a reasonably decent cross-section of the opera, that are enough for some people, including me. These might be a better "spring-board" into full-on Wagner for complete novices or sceptics rather than tackling the whole opera.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Couchie said:


> It's OK to listen to Wagner, but if you actually _enjoy _him, head on down to the opera forum where we hold Wagnerholics Anonymous meetings and refrain from judgement. Too much anti-Wagner claptrap up here in the general section.


Are those meetings actually meant to cure chronic Wagneritis or merely a source of infection? Are there side effects or immune deficiencies reportedly known? 
I luckily found myself to be absolutely immune for this condition, despite being confronted with plenty of germ attacks and I still find myself occasionally enjoying the music. So, there must be an antidote out there


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2019)

Partita said:


> I'd be interested to see your honest assessment after listening through a Wagner opera in its entirety. I hope you'll enjoy it all, but if you find that it's too long there is an alternative to merely listening to "*bleeding chunks*" which I agree is not very sensible. As I mentioned before in this thread, there are "highlight" CDs of each of the main operas which give a reasonably decent cross-section of the opera, that are enough for some people, including me. These might be a better "spring-board" into full-on Wagner for complete novices or sceptics rather than tackling the whole opera.


I just objected to the expression itself, not the idea.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2019)

I would start with the Ring. Rheingold has more actual action than most Wagner, not as much emphasis on long monologues. If that goes well one can carry on to Walkure, Siegfried, Gotterdamerung.

If possible, I'd suggest starting with a DVD or BluRay. Reading subtitles is more compatible with appreciating the music than having your nose buried in a booklet. Just listening with no comprehension of what is happening isn't satisfactory either. And a lot of Wagner's orchestral interludes or preludes make more sense when you understand the context.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Baron Scarpia said:


> If possible, I'd suggest starting with a DVD or BluRay. Reading subtitles is more compatible with appreciating the music than having your nose buried in a booklet. Just listening with no comprehension of what is happening isn't satisfactory either. And a lot of Wagner's orchestral interludes or preludes make more sense when you understand the context.


The only trouble with videos of productions is that Wagner is rarely staged nowadays in accordance with his intentions. I'm glad I began with sound recordings and librettos (although in those days libretto booklets were 12"x12" and easier to hold and read). The music evoked its own visuals in my imagination, and I could "see" Wagner as he intended. It gave me a measuring stick by which to judge some of the weirdness to which he's often subjected in today's opera houses.

That was my experience, but you may find starting with a DVD helpful.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> The only trouble with videos of productions is that Wagner is rarely staged nowadays in accordance with his intentions. I'm glad I began with sound recordings and librettos (although in those days libretto booklets were 12"x12" and easier to hold and read). The music evoked its own visuals in my imagination, and I could "see" Wagner as he intended. It gave me a measuring stick by which to judge some of the weirdness to which he's often subjected in today's opera houses.
> 
> That was my experience, but you may find starting with a DVD helpful.


I have found myself sometimes almost afraid of going to see Wagner live, because you never know what exactly will you get - you rarely see any traditional Wagner. With some operas I've started with a DVD and with some others with a libretto and a good recording. I agree with Woodduck that starting with a recording is good, because it lets you develop your own understanding of the opera and Wagner's possible intentions. The only problem I've encountered when starting with a recording and a libretto is that I sometimes find myself more focused on the libretto than the music itself, but I suppose it's very individual. It's interesting, the first time I listened to any Wagner 'properly' was when I listened to a recording of Die Walküre without a libretto and without understanding anything that was going on, but I still loved it!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

annaw said:


> I have found myself sometimes almost afraid of going to see Wagner live, because you never know what exactly will you get - you rarely see any traditional Wagner. With some operas I've started with a DVD and with some others with a libretto and a good recording. I agree with Woodduck that starting with a recording is good, because it lets you develop your own understanding of the opera and Wagner's possible intentions. *The only problem I've encountered when starting with a recording and a libretto is that I sometimes find myself more focused on the libretto than the music itself,* but I suppose it's very individual. It's interesting, the first time I listened to any Wagner 'properly' was when I listened to a recording of Die Walküre without a libretto and without understanding anything that was going on, but I still loved it!


It's always good to read the libretto before listening to an opera. That frees you to take in the music without distraction.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

When looking at almost any opera, especially when the staging is 'traditional', I find myself distracted by the terrible acting and the pompous costumes, necessary for the big voices to fit. Before you know it, it becomes a hilarious experience. 

I once went to Tristan & Isolde in a concert hall with a video artist (Bill Viola) offering the moving images. Much better artistic experience. Modern ballet and music go hand in hand on stage, as the dancers move totally refined. It however rarely happens that the quality of live music is of the same level as the dancing, also because the dancers need to work with fixed tempi and no variations in speed. Live opera for the acting and live modern dance for the music both are a somewhat compromised artform. The rare occasions where I really liked live opera, was on modern, non-traditional staging.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> The only trouble with videos of productions is that Wagner is rarely staged nowadays in accordance with his intentions. I'm glad I began with sound recordings and librettos (although in those days libretto booklets were 12"x12" and easier to hold and read). The music evoked its own visuals in my imagination, and I could "see" Wagner as he intended. It gave me a measuring stick by which to judge some of the weirdness to which he's often subjected in today's opera houses.
> 
> That was my experience, but you may find starting with a DVD helpful.


What do you mean by that? Are directors taking liberties with the staging, etc. à la Pierre Boulez with the Hundred Year Ring? Just curious about specifics, in any case I don't know what Wagner's intentions were for these works, staging wise.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> When looking at almost any opera, especially when the staging is 'traditional', I find myself distracted by the terrible acting and the pompous costumes, necessary for the big voices to fit. Before you know it, it becomes a hilarious experience.
> 
> I once went to Tristan & Isolde in a concert hall with a video artist (Bill Viola) offering the moving images. Much better artistic experience. Modern ballet and music go hand in hand on stage, as the dancers move totally refined. It however rarely happens that the quality of live music is of the same level as the dancing, also because the dancers need to work with fixed tempi and no variations in speed. Live opera for the acting and live modern dance for the music both are a somewhat compromised artform. The rare occasions where I really liked live opera, was on modern, non-traditional staging.


Yeah, I think it's fully personal. The Ring is a great example. As it's based on a myth, the traditional staging feels more logical to me, but then again I really enjoy Boulez ring where the staging becomes Das Rheingold --> Götterdämmerung more and more modern. I'm also a huge fan of Tolkien and that might be one of the reasons why I prefer that a knight also looks like a knight.

The opera can also become radically different when the staging is non-traditional but that's definitely not always so. I think that's not too great when the composer's original ideas are lost or, even worse, changed thanks to the staging. This applies to any opera composer - Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet, etc.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> What do you mean by that? Are directors taking liberties with the staging, etc. à la Pierre Boulez with the Hundred Year Ring? Just curious about specifics, in any case I don't know what Wagner's intentions were for these works, staging wise.


Boulez is okay I think, but this is what sometimes happens (btw, this is a Bayreuth production) :lol::






We can be quite sure that this wasn't Wagner's original intention for Lohengrin. Sometimes the costumes are just modernised (like Boulez's Ring or even Barenboim's Lohengrin with Kaufmann) and that's not such a huge problem, but in some cases the whole plot is turned upside down and that's where it becomes disturbing. We know that Wagner wanted to convey different philosophical ideas through his operas (clear Schopenhauer's philosophy in Tristan is a very good example of that), but these ideas are often diminished or lost if the plot is totally different from what Wagner originally intended or if you have to focus more on the staging than the music and the libretto.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

annaw said:


> Yeah, I think it's fully personal. The Ring is a great example. As it's based on a myth, the traditional staging feels more logical to me, but then again I really enjoy Boulez ring where the staging becomes Das Rheingold --> Götterdämmerung more and more modern. I'm also a huge fan of Tolkien and that might be one of the reasons why I prefer that a knight also looks like a knight.
> 
> The opera can also become radically different when the staging is non-traditional. I think that's not too great when the composer's original ideas are lost or, even worse, changed thanks to the staging. This applies to any opera composer - Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet, etc.


I think that any good story has a first sight and also more timeless messages. Personally, I think it is an art in itself to connect the timeless messages to a proper modern staging. This way, we are not looking at a historic tale, but at history repeating itself. The video images of Bill Viola that were used in Tristan, communicated far better the story and enhanced the music. No limits as to what you can do on a stage and no forced B-acting.

A staged example of modern/urgent opera direction is the Fidelio that was staged in Dresden in the last days of the GDR:




I never saw this one, but 30 years ago, this must have been very daring and spectacular to watch in Dresden in that time.

But as you say, it is all very personal. And any opera house will always have to face the dilemma of a mixed audience, those who swear by existing images in their head or those who prefer surprises, confrontations and inconveniences.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> What do you mean by that? Are directors taking liberties with the staging, etc. à la Pierre Boulez with the Hundred Year Ring? Just curious about specifics, in any case I don't know what Wagner's intentions were for these works, staging wise.


The Boulez/Chéreau Ring isn't the most radical example, and in fact nowadays is seen as rather quite tame. You can watch the production and still more or less follow and understand the basic plot. But the production still took plenty of liberties with the staging and with the characters to subtly change or contradict Wagner's musical and dramatic effects. So the prehistoric, mythical world that the Ring is supposed to take place in has been traded in for a late 19th century industrial setting. The Rhine River has been changed to a hydro-electric dam. The Rhine-daughters, mythical creatures representing the innocence and lack of awareness of nature have been turned into prostitutes, creating an incongruity between what the characters do and say and what they are. Wagner's Gods, which in his conception were thoroughly thought out characters conceived both as believable people and symbols of universal powers whereby the audience would follow their fate and be led by sympathy towards redemption, were turned by Chéreau into corrupt and unsympathetic businessmen. These are just a few of many examples. So it is less Wagner's Ring than an adaptation or even satire of The Ring.

I've never been as fond of DVD videos as others, even with productions that more or less portray the operas as created. First of all, although they contain subtitles, they are not word for word translations but abridged and approximate translations. In operas as dramatically and psychologically complex as Wagner's, changing or leaving out a few words can severely alter the understanding and the implications of what is taking place. Much like when listening to lieder, there's nothing better than following the music with the text and see the cohesion between every line being sung and every note being heard. But more than that, the ideal way to watch an opera is live in an opera house; all the close-ups you get on DVD are weird and unnatural. I find that when listening to CDs with a libretto, my imagination is liberated at being able to conjure up the drama in my mind, while DVDs usually constrict my imagination and are often disappointing next to the potency of Wagner's music.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

WildThing said:


> The Boulez/Chéreau Ring isn't the most radical example, and in fact nowadays is seen as rather quite tame. You can watch the production and still more or less follow and understand the basic plot. But the production still took plenty of liberties with the staging and with the characters to subtly change or contradict Wagner's musical and dramtic effects. So the prehistoric, mythical world that the Ring is supposed to take place in has been traded in for a late 19th century industrial setting. The Rhine River has been changed to a hydro-electric dam. The Rhine-daughters, mythical creatures representing the innocence and lack of awareness of nature have been turned into prostitutes, creating an incongruity between what the characters do and say and what they are. Wagner's Gods, which in his conception were thoroughly thought out characters conceived both as believable people and symbols of universal powers whereby the audience would follow their fate and be led by sympathy towards redemption, were turned by Chéreau into corrupt and unsympathetic businessmen. So it is less Wagner's Ring than an adaptation or even satirization of The Ring.
> 
> I've never been as fond of DVD videos as others, even with productions that more or less portray the operas as created. First of all, although they contain subtitles, they are not word for word translations but abridged and approximate translations. In operas as dramatically and psychologically complex as Wagner's, changing or leaving out a few words can severely alter the understanding and the implications of what is taking place. Much like when listening to lieder, there's nothing better than following the music with the text and see the cohesion between every line being sung and every note being heard. But more than that, the ideal way to watch an opera is live in an opera house; all the close-ups you get on DVD are weird and unnatural. I find that when listening to CDs with a libretto, my imagination is liberated at being able to conjure up the drama in my mind, while DVDs usually constrict my imagination and are often disappointing next to the potency of Wagner's music.


Yep, I've somehow managed to overlook (knowingly?) many details of Boulez/Chéreau Ring production so it hasn't become distracting me from the music and the original story.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

NLAdriaan said:


> When looking at almost any opera, especially when the staging is 'traditional', I find myself distracted by the terrible acting and the pompous costumes, necessary for the big voices to fit. Before you know it, it becomes a hilarious experience.
> 
> I once went to Tristan & Isolde in a concert hall with a video artist (Bill Viola) offering the moving images. Much better artistic experience. Modern ballet and music go hand in hand on stage, as the dancers move totally refined. It however rarely happens that the quality of live music is of the same level as the dancing, also because the dancers need to work with fixed tempi and no variations in speed. Live opera for the acting and live modern dance for the music both are a somewhat compromised artform. The rare occasions where I really liked live opera, was on modern, non-traditional staging.


As you say, pompous costumes and hammy overacting are not exclusive to "traditional" stagings. I'm not even sure traditional is the right word here -- no one is calling to see operas staged exactly like they were at their first premiere, with all the sets and stage machinery that would no doubt look cheap and ridiculous to us now. It is just that for most people, taking in an opera is like watching a movie or listening to music: it is enjoyed on a visceral, emotional level first because of the impact it has. There are some films that are more challenging than others, just as there are some operas that are truly challenging and others that are effective light entertainment, and everything in between. Ingmar Bergman's Persona is a challenging film. But it is an overwhelming experience because of the coherence of its vision, even if it's difficult for the viewer to put their finger on what it means. The same goes for an opera like Parsifal. But when directors ignore Wagner's vision and replace it with their own, while pairing it with Wagner's words and music, they create some kind of strange intellecual mess in which all the dramatic and emotional power is gone.

I suppose if someone generally does not like opera as an artform and get very little emotional impact from them, seeing them deconstructed can offer a sort of novelty, and they at least find it stimulating in that sense. But for those who love opera, it's like those who love Bergman's films and having their soundtracks be matched with another directors visuals: incoherent and pretentious. And its unfortunate because the great thing about theatrical arts as opppsed to movies is a director can offer a fresh take and something new while still staying faithful to the vision of the original artist.

Concert stagings can in fact be quite satisfying though. My most intimate and moving experiences with Tristan und Isolde have all been at home by way of audio recording. The music and the text go far in conveying the essence of the story, to the point where visuals are almost superfluous.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

My best Wagner staging was while driving with some friends (in a smooth 1965 Cadillac V8) through the hilly forests of the Belgian Ardennes in twilight with Parsifal by Barenboim on my car stereo with hi quality speakers and the volume right up. No one said a word, my friends never heard Parsifal before. Just a lucky moment and I will never forget it. 

I am now just looking at a youtube of Parsifal with Barenboim and staging by Harry Kupfer, it starts in a bank safe. It just takes away all magic from the music. Not all modern staging works


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