# The Development of the Symphony



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

....A sorta sequel to Makis's very cool thread of Beethoven

A magazine editor comes to you and says:

"I'd like you to write an article on the development of the symphony. Choose *10* symphonic works that you feel demonstrate the symphony as a developing form. You must represent the symphony from its roots to its near-present day. And each work must be included not only for its quality, but for its ability to demonstrate the symphony's development as a form."
Which 10 symphonies do you choose?


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2012)

My response would be "Make it 50 symphonies, and maybe I'll do the article for ya."


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> My response would be "Make it 50 symphonies, and maybe I'll do the article for ya."


Don't let your ambition stop you. Just write down the 50. Would the _Frankenstein Symphony_ you suggested yesterday make that list (the one with traffic sounds and a duck quacking in the third movement I posted)?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

DavidMahler said:


> ....Choose *10* symphonic works that you feel demonstrate the symphony as a developing form. You must represent the symphony from its roots to its near-present day. And each work must be included not only for its quality, but for its ability to demonstrate the symphony's development as a form."
> Which 10 symphonies do you choose?


I'll just do it off top of my head, getting more and more specific as we get closer to our own time (my area being after 1800).

_Renaissance_ -

1. *Giovanni Gabrieli's *_*Sacrae Symphoniae *_for voices and brass. The church sonata here being a related thing, possibly, many composers writing those from this time through to the Classical era & incorporating it into the developing symphonic form.

_Baroque _-

2. Maybe one of *Handel's overtures*, which are like the Italian sinfonia, three part pieces - fast-slow-fast - without a break that foreshadow the symphony. Englishman William Boyce's 8 symphonies are examples of a further development of this type of thing.

_Classical era_ -

3 & 4. - Sammartini kicked off the symphony formally but he's more of historical interest than anything. So over to Haydn and Mozart. Hard to choose which one of theirs to answer the OP's question. For the sake of it, I choose *Haydn's* _*Sym.#103 'Drumroll,*'_ and *Mozart's* _*Sym.#41 'Jupiter*_.' The former for being the first to bring something back from the beginning - the drumroll! - at the end of a symphony, the latter for that amazing fugue in the final movement.

_Beethoven_ -

5. *Beethoven*, straddling Classical and Romantic eras, is an era unto himself. I choose his _*Sym.#3 'Eroica'*_ for reason of it being the first to use a much expanded orchestra, having the element of political commentary on current events and cos it's my favourite!

_Romantic era_ -

6. With the strong autobiographical & storytelling element, and these visions of the macabre and heightened emotions, *Berlioz's* _*Symphonie Fantastique *_takes the cake for Romantic symphony par excellence. I could have chosen Liszt's equally great_ A Faust Symphony_, but thought that the Berlioz probably made more impact in it's time and is better known, etc. The_ idee fixe_, or recurring motif/theme, is an important concept in part bought to it's fruition by Berlioz.

7. I think one of the most innovative later Romantic symphonists was *Tchaikovsky*. He really did a lot to rework the symphony and was quite influential in his day and beyond, & not only in his native Russia. Eg. two I can think of is making the _Sym.#5_ a theme and variations type work, and ending the _*Sym.#6 'Pathetique' *_on a slow movement rather than a Rondo-Allegro or fugal/contrapuntal movement as was still the custom back then. So I chose the latter work for this list of 10. Sorry to Brahms and Bruckner who got edged out by old Pyotr Ilych.

_Early Modern era_ -

8. With it's 9 note clusters, dissonance and near-atonality, I nominate *Mahler's* _*Sym.#10*_, at least the opening _*Adagio*_, which is my understanding that he fully scored. This symphony marked the end of one era and marked the beginning of another new one.

_Post-1945 era_ -

9. For the way it reflects it's times and seems to sum up all that went before it, I chose *Shostakovich's Sym.#10*. Especially the opening movement which is virtually a requiem for the suffering of the Stalin era, which had just passed. Also, this work kind of reflecting the doubts and questions of the post-1945 era, not holding back on asking difficult questions, even though on the surface the ending is cheerful.

10. The element of post-modern collage and referencing is strongly present in *Berio's Sinfonia*, which contains references to many things, including Mahler, Debussy and jazz. I could have also chosen a symphony by Schnittke or maybe even a minimalist like Philip Glass to illustrate this important trend post-1945, of classical music blending with other non-classical traditions and referencing itself.

What did I learn from this exercise?
a. Bloody hard
b. Had to work against instinct, eg. not simply do a list of my favourites - had to be "objective" as I can. In fact, missed some of my favourite symphonists, eg. Mendelssohn, Brahms, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Messiaen, all of the Americans, even an Australian or two!
c. Have to be ruthless and cull, cull, cull...


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I think Sid James has wrapped it up very well. 
The first concert symphonies do seem to have originated from opera overtures in their 3 movement fast\ slow\ fast Italian form rather than the older “French” overture.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

10 would be too few for me too, but I'm not sure which ones I would choose. 

I'd want a few pre-Haydn, maybe Abel, Gluck, CPE Bach, and Stamitz. 

Then maybe Haydn #6, #45, #83, Mozart 40 and 41, and Haydn 104. 
Beethoven 3, 5, and 9. 
Schubert 9. 
Berlioz Symphony-Fantasique. 
Brahms 1, 4. 
Bruckner 8. 
Tchaikovsky 6. 
Saint-Saens 3. 
Mahler, perhaps 2 and 8. 
Sibelius, perhaps 2. 
Rachmaninoff 2.
Shostakovich 5, 10. 
I don't know what to choose by Henze, Martinu, Hovhaness. Maybe Lutoslawski 3 and/or 4. 

That'd just about do it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Agreeable summary above by SJ.

I was wondering who wrote the first/amongst the first 12-tone symphony. Schoenberg's symphonic poem _Pelleas und Melisande_ sounded tonal to me. But his chamber symphonies #1 and #2 sounded 12-tone, as did his _Five Pieces for Orchestra_, op.16. It's been a little while since I last listened to these, so I might well be wrong. Anyone know?


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2012)

Anyone care?

They're all really fine pieces. Enjoyable to listen to.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> Anyone care?


Yes, I do. My question was regarding early/first examples of 12-tone symphonies. I suggested Schoenberg. I care - out of historical interest.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Yes, I do. My question was regarding early/first examples of 12-tone symphonies. I suggested Schoenberg. I care - out of historical interest.


I think the first 12 tone piece that is actually labeled as a symphony is Webern's Symphony.

Schoenberg's chamber symphonies are tonal still, but with extremely stretched out tonality. His 5 pieces for orchestra are atonal but not 12 tone. They use free atonality.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Some Monteverdi orchestral sinfonia thingy
Then some later baroque sinfonia thingy
Then some symphony by JC Bach or composer of similar period
Then a Haydn sturm und drang
Then a later symphony of Mozart or Haydn
Then Beethoven 6
Then Beethoven 9
Then Berlioz symphony fantastique
Then some symphony by Schumann or Brahms
Then something by Bruckner
Then something by Mahler
Then Webern op. 21
Then something by Copland or Bernstein
Then Schnittke's 1st
Then something by Zwilich
Then something by Glass
Then Segerstam's 212th
Then ComposerOfAvantGade's 6th

I did an epic eight part report on the evolution of the symphony (and similar symphonic forms) when I was twelve. I wish I could remember everything I wrote.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Yes, I do. My question was regarding early/first examples of 12-tone symphonies. I suggested Schoenberg. I care - out of historical interest.


Also, the first symphony to use free atonality is probably Ive's 4th.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Sid's post made great reading, whatever reservations anyone has about any of the examples he used. I might have been tempted to augment the later part of his list with Sibelius' 7th and Webern's as their originality and concision seemed to represent a kind of 'closing of the chapter' in the evolution of the symphony whereas the previous ones were more like stepping-stones leading up to them.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> ...out of historical interest.


Oops. I misspoke. Sorry!


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

I thought about this vaguely, but haven't enough in-depth experience at both ends of the scale.
For the 'middle' section, I went:
*Haydn 49*; peak of the _sturm und drang_, and a pointer of things to come
*Jupiter*; for a level of complexity not seen previously in symphonic writing (about to be trumped, perhaps, by...)
*Eroica*; what's the quote "the single greatest step forward in the history of music, indeed in arts & literature..." or something like that
*Fantastique*; the most extraordinary development in the use of the orchestra(& programme) so soon after Beethoven
*Bruckner 8*; the ultimate summary - in scale and scope and ambition - of the whole German symphonic tradition. There was nowhere left to go after this.
*Sibelius 7*; almost the opposite of Bruckner; the distillation of the symphonic form to a terse, concentrated state; an epic black hole of a work the lasts barely 20 minutes.

Maybe there's a case for something like Turangalila, which I don't know well enough to make; have there been any great leaps forward in symphonic form since WW2? (not that there haven't been good symphonies - I'm trying to stick with the OPs guidelines...)
cheers,
GG


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> ...I might have been tempted to augment the later part of his list with Sibelius' 7th and Webern's as their originality and concision seemed to represent a kind of 'closing of the chapter' in the evolution of the symphony whereas the previous ones were more like stepping-stones leading up to them...


Yes I think, definitely given more spots than 10, Sibelius would have made it on my list. I didn't think of WEbern, but his symphony is a significant one of it's time, so good point there as well...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I think that something many people are missing are the very early classical/rococo symphonies of the early 1750s and even going back the 1740s. I was looking at a score of a symphony (mid to late 1740s) by a composer that I have forgotten the name of and I could clearly see an early version of sonata form in the opening presto movement, so I think that virtually unknown early symphonies such as these are historically important enough to be mentioned as one of the ten symphonies in the development of the symphony.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I feel bad that I left off Webern. Should not have happened.... 

Also, I notice that my list was almost all German or Russian. I know it's not just me, it's the classical music narrative, but I'd like to put up a smidgeon of resistance - Messiaen is not a bad choice, perhaps Franck or Chausson (I know I'm supposed to choose Franck but I want to choose Chausson); perhaps Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony; perhaps something by Chavez or Tan Dun....


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Who are your favorite rococo symphony composers? I'm kind of interested in that style.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> Who are your favorite rococo symphony composers? I'm kind of interested in that style.


I don't know. I hardly listen to those symphonies.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I'll just assume CPE Bach and William Boyce are the main rococo composers.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I'll just assume CPE Bach and William Boyce are the main rococo composers.


You should check out all the Bach sons. And Stamiz.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Perhaps Stravinsky's Symphony in C could be included if there was a 'back to to the future' sub-category?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> You should check out all the Bach sons. And Stamiz.


I remember JC Bach has written some pretty good symphonies. Some more Classical than Rococo.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> I'll just assume CPE Bach and William Boyce are the main rococo composers.


I was trying to think of Boyce when I wrote my original post and his name was slipping my mind. I've only heard of him, never heard his music. Have to fix that...


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