# Your favorite moment in DER RING?



## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey there, I'm calling out to the Wagnerites (Wagnerians?) to share their favorite moments in Der Ring and which version they prefer. Love to know what truly stands out for you guys.

For me it's probably *Wotan's Farewell* at the end of Die Walkure. Although Brunnhilde's Immolation is a very close second!  I've been listening over and over to the Hans Hotter/Solti version. I LOVE that supercharged orchestral sound Solti conjures up right after: *"Denn Einer nur freie die Braut, der freier als ich, der Gott!"* (For one alone winneth the bride; one freer than I, the god!)

Though I understand Hans Hotter was past his prime in this recording (he could've fooled me!).

Just today I got a chance to hear a more "youthful" Wotan as sung by Rene Pape. HOLY COW! This guy is AWESOME:






Anyways...

So what's your single favorite stand-out moment?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

The finales of Das Rheingold and Götterdämmerung are up there, but my favourite is probably the music for Wotan and Loge's journey to Nibelheim.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

in Walkure when Brunnhilde tells Sieglinde that she is pregnant with the best hero ever, Sieglinde replies "Magnificent Victory!" with a really phenomenal short piece of melody... it's that same line that is repeated at the end of Gotterdammerung when valhalla is burning. magnificent victory


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)




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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


>


I like the way ComposerOfAvantGarde replies to threads, sometimes really AvantGarde like herself ! 

***

My favorite is Die Zauberfeuermusik (Die Walküre)


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> Wotan and Loge's journey to Nibelheim.


Yep this for me. Das Rheingold was my first foray into Wagner and after an opera education that had consisted of numbers pieces filled with da capo arias, my jaw hit the floor. "*This* is opera?!"


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

The last 10"


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Il_Penseroso said:


> I like the way ComposerOfAvantGarde replies to threads, sometimes really AvantGarde like *herself* !
> 
> ***
> 
> My favorite is Die Zauberfeuermusik (Die Walküre)


Hehe. _Him_self.  Thanks anyway. Refer to me as a female if you want. I kind of like it actually.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Hehe. _Him_self.  Thanks anyway. Refer to me as a female if you want. I kind of like it actually.


Ooops ! Sorry ! :lol:

But if you got to be an AvantGarde, it's naturally excpected for you !


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Ooops ! Sorry ! :lol:
> 
> But if you got to be an AvantGarde, it's naturally excpected for you !


Please use "she" and "her" etc. when referring to me.  Use "it" if you really feel the need to. :lol:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

rgz said:


> Yep this for me. Das Rheingold was my first foray into Wagner and after an opera education that had consisted of numbers pieces filled with da capo arias, my jaw hit the floor. "*This* is opera?!"


What, you learnt of nothing but Handel then?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

When it all ends.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

The rhinemaidens, particularly their screams and lament


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

From each opera:

Rheingold: Prelude






Walküre: O hehrstes Wunder!






Siegfried: Heil dir, Sonne!






Götterdämmerung: Brünnhilde's Immolation


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Couchie -- 

OH MY GOODNESS! Jessye Norman must be the greatest Sieglinde ever! Simply PHENOMENAL! 

Thanks for those vids!


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## rsmithor (Jun 30, 2011)

*The beginning of Götterdämmerung Introduction and 1st Scene*






After sitting and hearing the first 13 hours of the "Ring Cycle" I revel in the music and endless chatter of the three "Norns"... Spinning the past, the present, the future... The rope snaps, and then there's nothing. No future... "down... down to mother". The end of the Gods is near... I find the Norn scene very moving...


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Siegfried's Rhine Journey


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

The start of Act 1 of Rheingold - love the Walhal leitmotif


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

GrosseFugue said:


> Hey there, I'm calling out to the Wagnerites (Wagnerians?) to share their favorite moments in Der Ring and which version they prefer. Love to know what truly stands out for you guys.
> 
> For me it's probably *Wotan's Farewell* at the end of Die Walkure. Although Brunnhilde's Immolation is a very close second!  I've been listening over and over to the Hans Hotter/Solti version. I LOVE that supercharged orchestral sound Solti conjures up right after: *"Denn Einer nur freie die Braut, der freier als ich, der Gott!"* (For one alone winneth the bride; one freer than I, the god!)
> 
> ...


Ooh, yes! So excited for Pape's Wotan in March 2012!

Here's one of my favourite moments that hasn't been mentioned already.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

eorrific said:


> Here's one of my favourite moments that hasn't been mentioned already.


That's it! 
_Umfängt Siegmund Sieglinde dort?_


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

The Ring is in my top 3, so it's hard to choose. There are so many epic moments. 

Judging from what I listen to the most (while walking or ironing or just having a random "NEED SOME WAGNER NOW" moment and going to Youtube):

Brünnhilde's Immolation (guilty of singing along)
Hagen's Watch
Hagen's Call
The "let's kill Siegfried" trio
"Helle Wehr! Heilige Waffe!"
Wotan's Farewell
Rheingold's finale from "Schwüles Gedünst" on
"Siegmund heiss ich! Und Siegmund bin ich!"
Walküre Act II finale 
Wotan banishing Brünnhilde
The Riddle Scene
Enter the Giants (I just LOVE their motif, wish it was longer)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Loge's sarcastic stuff at the very end of Rheingold. especially in the Boulez ring. love that ending.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Itullian said:


> Loge's sarcastic stuff at the very end of Rheingold. especially in the Boulez ring. love that ending.


Loge gets all the best music.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

EXACTLY! A stupendously dramatic moment in Die Walkure, and then so sublime in Die Götterdämmerung! C.......BCD.........CBC..D(the last D an octave lower) - I transposed it to all white keys to make it easier to type 



AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> in Walkure when Brunnhilde tells Sieglinde that she is pregnant with the best hero ever, Sieglinde replies "Magnificent Victory!" with a really phenomenal short piece of melody... it's that same line that is repeated at the end of Gotterdammerung when valhalla is burning. magnificent victory


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## tannhaeuser (Nov 7, 2011)

Siegfried's funeral march, anyone?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tannhaeuser said:


> Siegfried's funeral march, anyone?


I'm up for that.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Along with many of the scenes already mentioned, I'll add the Walküre Act II dialogue between Siegmund and Brünnhilde, where his love for Sieglinde convinces her to disobey Wotan and try to help him. The long, slow orchestral harmonies underpinning the scene are lovely and convey his nobility. 

How about the Forging Song in Siegfried?


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## tebw (Feb 25, 2012)

My total favourite bit. At the Royal Opera House they give this to the double basses as sight reading. Marvellous!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

This is much like trying to figure out, which part of a physical ring is the highest!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> This is much like trying to figure out, which part of a physical ring is the highest!


Yes! I can rather name my least favorite moments - some of that dialogue between Wotan and Brünhilde in "Die Walküre". The rest of it is all awesome. Here's one I love a lot:






It seemes to me very sad though. There is so much love and passion here but it turns to bitterness and revenge very soon.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Siegfried's forest murmurs, as sung by Wolfgang Windgassen. Sorry, didn't find a video.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Loge gets all the best music.


This is true.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Siegfried Finale (especially with Evans and Jerusalem!!!), absolutely. This one made me really crazy to Wagner, and this last two minutes of Siegfried is IMO the best music ever composed...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

My favorite moment in DER RING? When the chicken wings arrive!!! :lol:


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Tough call, but I'd have to say the first five minutes and the last five minutes - the only times when the gold is resting in its rightful place under the Rhine and all is right with the world.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> in Walkure when Brunnhilde tells Sieglinde that she is pregnant with the best hero ever, Sieglinde replies "Magnificent Victory!" with a really phenomenal short piece of melody... it's that same line that is repeated at the end of Gotterdammerung when valhalla is burning. magnificent victory


I think that's the leitmotif of Redemption. Definitely my favourite moment and leitmotif in the Ring Cycle also.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I love all of Rheingold....but have now got lessened enthusiasm for Der Walkure and Siegfried...but my favourite moments come from Gotterdamerung, especially the Trio that ends Act 3, when Gunther, Hagen and Brunnhilde plot to kill Siegried. That is thrilling....
Then, the whole of the Prologue...with the 3 Norns fiddling-about with their rope and then the ecstatic Brunnhilde and Siegfried after their night of Bliss...before Sigs is off down the Rhine.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Just after the final curtain, before the applause (if any).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Just after the final curtain, before the applause (if any).


Trolly, you are very naughty.

But I must admit that when I watched the old Met Ring on Met player I was very glad when Hildegard Behrens rode off into the flames.:devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> Siegfried Finale (especially with Evans and Jerusalem!!!), absolutely. This one made me really crazy to Wagner, and this last two minutes of Siegfried is IMO the best music ever composed...


If I was his dad I'd be saying to him: "She's too old for you lad. After all, she is your auntie!"


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

DavidA said:


> If I was his dad I'd be saying to him: "She's too old for you lad. After all, she is your auntie!"


Considering who his mom was, I'm not sure his dad is in any position to be giving out warnings about inappropriate romantic liaisons. :devil:


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

And it's not so good to think about it like that... Siegfried and Brünnhilde are in lead in my love stories-list!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

It's all Anna Russell's fault.


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## Gizmo (Mar 28, 2013)

Siegfried's Funeral March and Brunnhilde's Immolation are my favorites.


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

Tough call. I can't say I have a true favorite, but I found "Abendlich strahlt der Sonne Auge" from Rheingold quite brilliant!


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

The very beginning  Rheingold) under the baton of Von Karajan.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Forest murmurs reflects the mystic past so perfectly. Listening to it, one can enter into the naive simplicity of primal man and feel with him the wonder and mystery of the world around him.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

If you have been following the story and music for 14 hours, the Finale to Gotterdammerung is one of the most amazing and cathartic experinces life has to offer.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Logos said:


> Forest murmurs reflects the mystic past so perfectly. Listening to it, one can enter into the naive simplicity of primal man and feel with him the wonder and mystery of the world around him.


Both "Rhine-moments" in the Ring: the prelude to _Das Rheingold_ and Siegfried's Rhine Journey from _Götterdämmerung _ do the same to me. When I hear the latter one, I can almost see the great river in front of me, water glittering in the sunlight and the young hero next to the horse Grane in his boat, strong and proud, effortlessly steering it against the current. And Siegfried and Brünnhilde's passionate duet right before it is definitely one of my favorite moments:

Hail you, Brünnhilde, a shining star!
Hail you, Siegfried, victorious light*
Hail you, resplendent love! 
Hail you, resplendent life!..

*In the original German it is "Heil dir, Siegfried, siegendes Licht..." and that is where my own screen name comes from.


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## Oliver (Feb 14, 2012)




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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

No question! Ho-jo-to-ho-OH! With eight screaming sopranos and soprano wannabes.

PS This is great music for a severe thunderstorm. Open the windows, let in the wind and rain, jack up the volume, and let out the bloodcurdling shrillness! Your neighbors will ... (fill in the blank)!


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## WAWilson (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't think anyone has mentioned this one yet:

The sunrise and love duet between Siegfried and Brunnhilde - Gotterdammerung prologue.
Such intensely passionate love music


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

EEEEEEEEEEEEEVERYTHIIIIIIIING! No, but seriously, both Wotan's and Brunnhilde's farwell at the end of Die Walküre. And also the very beggining of the opera's first act. And Siegmund's and Sieglind's love duet. I can't pick only one moment


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

Das Rheingold: The end (with the rainbow  )
Die WalKüre: Siegmund-Siegliend duet (from the middle of the act I to the end)
Siegried: Forging scene (with a powerful tenor)
Götterdämmerung: Siegfried's death and funeral march.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

If I had to narrow it down to one section that I would want with me on a desert island, it would be from Siegfried, from Brünnhilde's awakening to the end.


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

The Stormhammer and Erda's warning in Das Rheingold (Solti).


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## Celesta (May 4, 2013)

The Forging music from Act I of Siegfried
The Storm music that starts the final act of Siegfried
The Sunrise orchestral interlude from Act I of Gotterdammerung. Stunningly rapturous music!
Magic Fire music from Die Walkure
All the Rhinemaiden singing


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

When Siegmund rejects Brunhilde's invitation in Act 2 of Walkure, especially when sung by Vickers.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Rangstrom said:


> When Siegmund rejects Brunhilde's invitation in Act 2 of Walkure,


I love this part too - but I'll take Kaufmann and Stemme on the recent CD.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I love this part too - but I'll take Kaufmann and Stemme on the recent CD.


I've read mixed reviews on the new Gergiev, but I am very tempted.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

There is another little treasure I have come across during my last listen: the beginning of Scene II or the second act of _Götterdämmerung_ between Hagen's parting with Alberich and Siegfried's coming from his journey to Brünnhilde's rock. There is a short (around 1.5 minute) orchestral interlude and a remark in the text: "_The Rhine glows ever brighter with the red light of dawn"_ . This reminds me of one glorious morning I have spent on the mountain of Drachenfels in the region of Siebengebirge, near the Rhine, when my man and I walked up the steep mountain path in the darkness to greet the sun rising far away over the mighty river, and did, indeed see the Rhine light up with the first light of dawn. That was one Wagnerian moment!









Now, according to the local legends, it was on that very mountain Drachenfels ("Dragon Rock") that Siegfried fought the dragon Fafner, and therefore at least part of the events of the Ring must have happened in that area. There is a little museum called Nibelungenhalle with paintings on Wagnerian themes halfway up the mountain, and a plaque in honor of the _Meister_ who had given this and other legends of his homeland a new life and immortality.

I don't know whether Wagner has ever visited that spot, but I like to think that he did, once, stand on that mountaintop and look with the same admiration and awe at the mighty river and the vast expanses beyond.


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## AndreasFink (Feb 11, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> There is another little treasure I have come across during my last listen: the beginning of Scene II or the second act of _Götterdämmerung_ between Hagen's parting with Alberich and Siegfried's coming from his journey to Brünnhilde's rock. There is a short (around 1.5 minute) orchestral interlude and a remark in the text: "_The Rhine glows ever brighter with the red light of dawn"_ . This reminds me of one glorious morning I have spent on the mountain of Drachenfels in the region of Siebengebirge, near the Rhine, when my man and I walked up the steep mountain path in the darkness to greet the sun rising far away over the mighty river, and did, indeed see the Rhine light up with the first light of dawn. That was one Wagnerian moment!\
> 
> View attachment 17799


One of the best places in the neighborhood of Bonn, much more interesting than the museum of Beethoven in the city. Such a sight from more than 300 meters!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

The "Ring" has so many moments, on so many levels.

But hey, I'm the drama guy. The scene between Brünnhilde and Waltraute in "Götterdämmerung": Nothing really _happens_; they both make their point about their situations, their loyalties and expectations; they love each other dearly, they _clash_, and they get nowhere. Emotionally, I think it's my favorite moment in the "Ring". (And, notably, I think this scene makes performers often rise to the best of their abilities.)


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## Soliantu (Jun 4, 2013)

You know I must say a personal favorite of mine is Loge's first appearance in Das Rheingold, both him and Mime are favorites of mine. It's especially great when the singers portraying Loge and Wotan have a good dynamic
Together. I really enjoy the Bayreuth production on DVD with Graham Clark. Unfortunately wasn't too crazy about the DVD of the Met production with 'The Machine', only because I wasn't thrilled with some of the casting. The production itself is interesting however.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1478858280/help-dan-dive-into-russian-opera-and-record-a-demo


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The best scene by far is Brunnhilde's announcement of death to Seigmund. Especially with Karajan and Vickers.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Being so new to the Ring, I have to say Ride of the Valkyries is my favorite part.


:lol: Dragged up another old Ring thread. :lol:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Dawn, duet and Rhine Journey from act 1 of Gotterdammerung.
Probably a second choice would be all of act 3 of Gotterdammerung.
Maybe even all of Gotterdammerung except the Nornsense at the start


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Peter Hofmann Winterstürme wichen dem Wonnemond .


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Ride of the Valkyries.
When listening to the ring it is really a highpoint.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

One for each opera:

_Das Rheingold_: The Entry of the Gods into Valhalla

_Die Walküre_: Wotan's Farewell & the Magic Fire Music

_Siegfried_: The Forging of the Sword

_Götterdämmerung_: Siegfried's Funeral March


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Becca said:


> Dawn, duet and Rhine Journey from act 1 of Gotterdammerung.
> Probably a second choice would be all of act 3 of Gotterdammerung.
> Maybe even all of Gotterdammerung except the Nornsense at the start


I like the nornsense.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I like the nornsense.


I do as well. I find it to be a highly poetic and arresting scene, both haunting and shrouded in mystery, setting the action in its mythical context.

If I had to choose one favorite moment from the entire cycle, it would probably be the magnificent and harrowing _Todesverkündigung_, when Brünnhilde appears to Siegmund towards the end of Act II of Die Walküre.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Being so new to the Ring, I have to say Ride of the Valkyries is my favorite part.


Allow me to digress for a moment, but will come back to the Valkyries at the end:

A few years back my wife was playing baseball. First she joined a team called the Detroit Danger, but the team fell apart and sadly never had any more games, but she played for a South Bend (IN) team in a tournament (she was also one of the first women to play in the Mens Senior Baseball League, but dizziness from a prior sports injury prevented her from staying with it more than one season).

At the South Bend tournament was a womens' team from Australia that included members from several other countries. These ladies were very good but I forgot their name. But these awesome female baseball players come to mind whenever I think of the Valkyries, and I think that would be a great name for a womens' baseball team: the Valkyries! What a perfect fit: 9 Valkyries; 9 players on a baseball team.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

It's awfully hard to pick just one favorite snippet. Maybe when Brunnhilde tells Sieglinde about her pregnancy (Nicht sehre dich Sorge um mich... O Hehrstes Wunder) (fav version Bohm with Rysanek and Nilsson -- this is maybe the nadir of Solti's Ring by the way, where he wrecks the sudden daylight effect of this scene by drowning it in martial brasses) or the Todesverkundigung (aka "announcement of death") (excellent versions from Bohm, Karajan, Furtwangler 1950). Or Act 3 Scene 2 of Gotterdammerung, Siegfried remembering his past, remembering Brunnhilde and the Funeral March (Lorenz with Furtwangler 1950 is untouchable--unbelievably intense -- another low point of Solti's Ring, where he plays the Funeral March as a jaunty victory march).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Gotterdammerung Act 2. Scene with Alberich talking to his sleeping son. Schläfst du, Hagen, mein Sohn? So sinister and so emotional.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The best scene by far is Brunnhilde's announcement of death to Seigmund. Especially with Karajan and Vickers.


I could go with this. Love Crespin on this recording.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Die Walkure Act 3 - "War es so schmahlich" until the end. But the final 10 minutes is the BEST. Unbelievable and genius composing.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Hagen's assemblage of the Vassals in Götterdämmerung. Done right, it's downright terrifying (see e.g. Keilberth's 1955 Bayreuth rendition, with Josef Greindl).


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

There are too many highlights, but I'll name one favourite in _Siegfried's_ "Forest Murmurs" scene. There's something supremely touching about it; Siegfried alone with Nature, remembering the mother he never knew, and showing a side of his personality that we rarely - if ever - glimpse in the entire _Ring_.


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm listening the cycle right now. Just finished 'Das Rheingold'. This is probably an odd pick, but I love the moment leading up to the 'arrogance' motif in the third scene of the first opera. 15:24 - 15:42 in this video:






Actually, every scene in the first opera has wonderful moments.

I might update with more clips when I'm finished the cycle again.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Eileen Farrell "Brünnhilde`s Immolation" Götterdämmerung


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

"Das ist kein Mann!!" exclaimed by Siegfried upon gazing on the sleeping Brünnhilde toward the end of Siegfried.

Cracks me up every time!!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> "Das ist kein Mann!!" exclaimed by Siegfried upon gazing on the sleeping Brünnhilde toward the end of Siegfried.
> 
> Cracks me up every time!!


In the 1989 Levine DVD he discovers this right after removing the shield and discovering two large bumps that men don't have. So he must have been puzzled by the physique as well as new feelings he was experiencing. Not sure if Siegfried ever even met a woman before that, living in the wood that the dragon lived in I doubt women frequented the area.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> In the 1989 Levine DVD he discovers this right after removing the shield and discovering two large bumps that men don't have. So he must have been puzzled by the physique as well as new feelings he was experiencing. Not sure if Siegfried ever even met a woman before that, living in the wood that the dragon lived in I doubt women frequented the area.


Yes. Brünnhilde was the first woman Siegfried ever saw. Reminds me of my first visit to a single's bar when I was 16.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Florestan said:


> In the 1989 Levine DVD he discovers this right after removing the shield and discovering two large bumps that men don't have


I remember Jeffrey Lawton in Welsh National Opera's 1980s production of _Siegfried_ doing the same. He really played up the humorous aspect of Siegfried's new discovery, throwing his arms apart as if to invite the audience to laugh. Oddly enough, it really worked and did not detract from the moment at all. On the contrary, it was a charming shot of catharsis.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yes. Brünnhilde was the first woman Siegfried ever saw. Reminds me of my first visit to a single's bar when I was 16.


So, you never saw a woman until you were 16 years old? Wow, we ought to change your username to Seigfried! :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> So, you never saw a woman until you were 16 years old? Wow, we ought to change your username to Seigfried! :lol:


I didn't consider my mom to be a woman. She was simply the arbiter of pain.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I didn't consider my mom to be a woman. She was simply the arbiter of pain.


Ah, so that is it. I had thought maybe you were a foundling in the care of a hermit.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Ah, so that is it. I had thought maybe you were a foundling in the care of a hermit.


I was a late bloomin' onion.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> "Das ist kein Mann!!" exclaimed by Siegfried upon gazing on the sleeping Brünnhilde toward the end of Siegfried.
> 
> Cracks me up every time!!


A great callback to Helmwige's line in Die Walküre upon noticing Sieglinde: "Das ist kein Held!"



Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I remember Jeffrey Lawton in Welsh National Opera's 1980s production of _Siegfried_ doing the same. He really played up the humorous aspect of Siegfried's new discovery, throwing his arms apart as if to invite the audience to laugh. Oddly enough, it really worked and did not detract from the moment at all. On the contrary, it was a charming shot of catharsis.


That makes a lot of sense. I think _Siegfried_ works best when treating it all - and him, especially - as more than a little ridiculous.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Everytime I've seen Siegfried at the Met, there was always laughter at "Das ist kein Mann!" 

If anything, it proved not everyone in the subscription audience was asleep.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Eileen Farrell & James King sing Die Walküre excerpts - LIVE!


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

I think my favourite motif in the whole cycle is the 'Hero' motif, appearing in _Gotterdammerung_. So powerful!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have to say anything with Hildegard Behrens as Brunhilde really rocks my boat and the Immolation Scene is perhaps the greatest. She is the hero of the Ring because she returned the ring to the Rhinemaidens--albeit too late.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I have to say anything with Hildegard Behrens as Brunhilde really rocks my boat and the Immolation Scene is perhaps the greatest. She is the hero of the Ring because she returned the ring to the Rhinemaidens--albeit too late.


Behrens was a fine artist, but not an ideal Brunnhilde imho. She was small of voice for the role, as she was for Elektra & Isolde. In that relative time period give me Gwyneth Jones with her massive voice, who looked the part even more so than Behrens. A true hochdramatischer soprano & Brunnhilde in every sense.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Looking through my shelves, I find that I have a book published in 1939 by Crown Publishers called _The Authentic Librettos of the Wagner Operas_. (They apparently also did similar books for French/German Operas, Italian Operas and even Gilbert and Sullivan operas.) It is nice that it gives what seems to be a good summary and the text side by side in the original language and the English translation. (It even gives a few bars of main motives in musical notation, although I really haven't been able to read musical notation very effectively since I stopped playing clarinet in high-school.) Are others familiar with these books, and are there any thoughts on the quality of the translations?

(Of course, many of the better CD presentations give similar librettos, and I am sure that one can find them online these days as well, but I do like the convenience and feel of a book. Using the English subtitles on DVDs is also nice, and probably the easiest way to follow the text, but only if I have acquired that particular opera on DVD.)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> Behrens was a fine artist, but not an ideal Brunnhilde imho. She was small of voice for the role, as she was for Elektra & Isolde. In that relative time period give me Gwyneth Jones with her massive voice, who looked the part even more so than Behrens. A true hochdramatischer soprano & Brunnhilde in every sense.


Be that as it may, my first Brunhilde was Brehens and that has left a lasting impression. As I am fairly new to the ring (2 months now), the others will come along in time.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Be that as it may, my first Brunhilde was Brehens and that has left a lasting impression. As I am fairly new to the ring (2 months now), the others will come along in time.


I can identify 100%. I imprinted on the Levine DVD as well & for a time Morris, Behrens, Norman, etc were my Wotan, Brunnhilde, & Sieglinde, but after doing a lot of listening & asking a lot of questions I realized that these singers left a lot to be desired. That said I still love that DVD, especially the traditional staging as an introduction to the ring, & watch it semi-regularly...some Brunnhildes of the past will pin your ears back & send chills down your spine! You know the names of the usual suspects already lol


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> I can identify 100%. I imprinted on the Levine DVD as well & for a time Morris, Behrens, Norman, etc were my Wotan, Brunnhilde, & Sieglinde, but after doing a lot of listening & asking a lot of questions I realized that these singers left a lot to be desired. That said I still love that DVD, especially the traditional staging as an introduction to the ring, & watch it semi-regularly...some Brunnhildes of the past will pin your ears back & send chills down your spine! You know the names of the usual suspects already lol


One Brunhilde that caught my attention recently is Jessye Norman, who normally plays Seiglind, but there is a recording of the Immolation scene with her as Brunhilde.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Florestan said:


> One Brunhilde that caught my attention recently is Jessye Norman, who normally plays Seiglind, but there is a recording of the Immolation scene with her as Brunhilde.


Is that the one with Tennstedt conducting?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JAS said:


> Is that the one with Tennstedt conducting?


Yes, but I only saw it on a Norman /Tennstedt disk with Johohoe from the Hollander and other Wagner opera parts.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I can identify 100%. I imprinted on the Levine DVD as well & for a time Morris, Behrens, Norman, etc were my Wotan, Brunnhilde, & Sieglinde, but after doing a lot of listening & asking a lot of questions I realized that these singers left a lot to be desired. That said I still love that DVD, especially the traditional staging as an introduction to the ring, & watch it semi-regularly...some Brunnhildes of the past will pin your ears back & send chills down your spine! You know the names of the usual suspects already lol


My imprint Ring was Solti....you can do a lot worse than imprint on Nilsson, Windgassen and Hotter.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

My answer to the original question:
When it ends.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm tickled by the idea that we are 'imprinted' by our first Brunnhilde. Although I've seen a few live and more on video, there's something about Behrens that works for me, but even more Gwyneth Jones. Seen both live but neither as Brunnhilde.

As this thread is titled favorite moment of Der Ring, and just in case I haven't mentioned it earlier, I'll respond again....

Gotterdammerung Act I Siegfried/Brunnhilde duet and into Seigfried's Rhine Journey, arguably the most thrilling side of vinyl (25 mins) in the history of all music. If it doesn't leave you breathless you don't know what music is.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

While I think there is often some truth to the idea that the first version we hear of something is the one we tend to prefer, I can only hope that no one's first Brunnehilde is the equivalent of Florence Foster Jenkins. (Did she record any Wagner?)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> My answer to the original question:
> When it ends.


All at once?................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> I'm tickled by the idea that we are 'imprinted' by our first Brunnhilde. Although I've seen a few live and more on video, there's something about Behrens that works for me, but even more Gwyneth Jones. Seen both live but neither as Brunnhilde.
> 
> As this thread is titled favorite moment of Der Ring, and just in case I haven't mentioned it earlier, I'll respond again....
> 
> Gotterdammerung Act I Siegfried/Brunnhilde duet and into Seigfried's Rhine Journey, arguably the most thrilling side of vinyl (25 mins) in the history of all music. *If it doesn't leave you breathless you don't know what music is.*


I can't resist noting that Edwin MacArthur, conducting the recording of that duet with Flagstad and Melchior in 1939, sounds literally breathless at the end, where we hear what is presumably his audible gasp of satisfaction. The recording is classic; singing of this splendor defies belief:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

. . . and apparently Florence Foster Jenkins did not spare Wagner from her attempts at singing. I am not brave enough to search youtube for any of them.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I can't resist noting that Edwin MacArthur, conducting the recording of that duet with Flagstad and Melchior in 1939, sounds literally breathless at the end, where we hear what is presumably his audible gasp of satisfaction. The recording is classic; singing of this splendor defies belief:


After that one played, this wonderful historic Lauritz Melchior -"Notung! Notung!" came up:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JAS said:


> . . . and apparently Florence Foster Jenkins did not spare Wagner from her attempts at singing. I am not brave enough to search youtube for any of them.


I did a quick search, can't find it also.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> I did a quick search, can't find it also.


Thank goodness for small mercies.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Thank goodness for small mercies.


Naughty........


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Pugg said:


> All at once?................


Not sure what you mean hear - I've never tried to listen to them all simultaneously, but then I would probably want it to end sooner. But while there are certainly some highlights, like most of Wagner, I find he has a genetic inability of conciseness. It's almost as if someone were paying him for each and every measure. And who knows - maybe that was the arrangement he had with the Mad King.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> After that one played, this wonderful historic Lauritz Melchior -"Notung! Notung!" came up:


If only Wagner could have heard this...


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Am I straining too much, or making too trite an observation, to say that Alberich steals the gold from the Rhinemaidens, and throws away the promise of love and, in so doing, effectively creates the power of the ring while Brunnehilde returns the gold to the Rhinemaidens, and effectively destroys the promise of power embodied by the ring by throwing it away for the sake of love? 

(Of course, there is a bit of a weakness here in that Brunnehilde never really craved the power of the ring, but, likewise, Alberich was really throwing away nothing since there wasn't much chance of him obtaining any love in the first place.)

(I am sure that the statement has long and repeatedly been made that the story, essentially ending at a point somewhat like where it began, itself forms a circle, and thus a ring.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't think you're straining. I think the ring has power only for those who choose power over love, and that it derives its power fromthat choice - which may explain why Brunnhilde couldn't use it against Siegfried in _Gotterdammerung._ She has never desired power, and at the end she explicitly says that in returning the gold to the waters it will be cleansed of its curse.

Don't downplay he seriousness of Alberich's renunciation of love. He seriously wants it, with the naive and single-minded seriousness of an infantile consciousness. His pain and fury at being rebuffed is the primal tantrum, the child-mind's egoistic "NO!," the basic act of defiance which launches the soul on its rocky journey of individuation. It's wonderful how, immediately after Alberich's triumphant laugh echoes up from the depths, we hear the circular motif of the ring float upward and transform itself into the noble motif of Walhall, and the first word we hear is "Wotan" - "Licht-Alberich,"ashe later calls himself. We are thus prepared for the next stage of the souls evolution, the emergence - painful and stumbling though it will be - of a moral conscience.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Everyone who gets the ring is given a chance to give it up, each of them refuses, and each of them dies as a result. Everyone who carries the ring does not really know love (see below), until it is gifted, transformed into a symbol of love. This does not change the way the ring works, though, since the bearers are unwilling to give up the ring, even thinking of it just as a symbol of love (or, rather, marriage).



Alberich steals the gold and makes the ring. Wotan, after capturing him, demands the ring. Alberich refuses, but Wotan takes it anyway.

I would not say Wotan is without love, but his relationship with Fricka is certainly fraught, and he spends much of the time between Rheingold and Walkure siring children with both Erda and a human woman. Loge says that Wotan will return the ring to the Rhinemaidens, but he scoffs at the idea. He doesn't even want to give it to the giants, and only relents when Erda grabs his attention. Wotan could almost be said to have given up the ring for his love for Erda. Or at least lust for Erda.

Fasolt, who had fallen for Freia, is the one to pick up the ring. Fafner objects, and kills Fasolt to get it. So the giant that gave up love for the ring, does not get it. The one who never knew love and was just scheming for power is the one to take control. Fafner is also asked to give up the ring, by Alberich, but the dragon ignores the dwarf.

Siegfried kills Fafner and gets the ring. He does not know romantic love at all. He also doesn't know platonic love, or even friendship, and that is what he is searching for.

He meets Brünnhilde, and gets more than he bargained for. Eventually, he gives her the ring as a love-pledge; something no-one else has done before. He wasn't asked to give it up, he just does.

Brünnhilde is asked to give up the ring, by Waltraute, but she refuses. Interestingly, it is not because she craves power, but because of her love for Siegfried. Right after this, he arrives, on a quest to win Gutrune, and steals the ring back.

Siegfried is asked to give the ring up by the Rhinemaidens themselves. He refuses, like Brünnhilde, because if he did his wife would be mad at him (though he is thinking of Gurtune, not Brünnhilde). Of course Siegfried is then murdered. 

The ring is collected by Brünnhilde, and she purifies everything with fire, ending her life (and instructing Loge to bring the flames to Valhalla, killing Wotan) finally returning the ring to the Rhinemaidens.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> Everyone who gets the ring is given a chance to give it up, each of them refuses, and each of them dies as a result. Everyone who carries the ring does not really know love (see below), until it is gifted, transformed into a symbol of love. This does not change the way the ring works, though, since the bearers are unwilling to give up the ring, even thinking of it just as a symbol of love (or, rather, marriage).
> 
> I would not say Wotan is without love, but his relationship with Fricka is certainly fraught, and he spends much of the time between Rheingold and Walkure siring children with both Erda and a human woman. Loge says that Wotan will return the ring to the Rhinemaidens, but he scoffs at the idea. He doesn't even want to give it to the giants, and only relents when Erda grabs his attention. Wotan could almost be said to have given up the ring for his love for Erda. Or at least lust for Erda.


It's true that every character who possesses the ring dies, but then all the major characters in the _Ring_ die! Nither desiring the ring nor possessing it causes the death of the whole race of the gods - of whom only Wotan ever desires or touches the ring - or of Wotan's progeny, the Walsungs or the valkyries. Siegfried and Brunnhilde never cared for the ring's power; their deaths were necessary for other reasons.

I don't view the ring and its curse as the fundamental cause of what happens to the characters in the _Ring_. Causality operates on a deeper level, characters die because the logic of their natures and of the progress of the story makes their deaths necessary, and the theft of the Rhine gold, its fashioning into a ring, the curse Alberich places on it, and the outworking of that curse, are symbols, more than causes, of the gathering catastrophe. Fundamentally, characters in Wagner's modern, psychological myth die because they represent aspects of consciousness, or stages in the evolution of consciousness, which must necessarily be outgrown and left behind if progress is to occur: progress toward a world both human and humane, with both the crude egoism of infancy (the Nibelungs) and the higher egoism of law-based morality (the gods) supplanted by a morality of empathy.

Wotan glimpses this moral dimension only clearly enough to be conflicted by it, and is able to hope for its ascendance even knowing that he himself can't achieve it and has to die; his attempt to place his spear in Siegfried's path is a last pathetic assertion of the morality of law which he is doomed to represent and which has to result in his death. Siegfried represents the freer side of Wotan's nature, but his death expresses the inevitable tragedy of a spontaneous, loving spirit who places too much trust in his basically childish impulses, which stand him in good stead only until he encounters the corrupt society of men. Only Brunnhilde, loving by nature and willing to defy the morality of law, can reach the threshold of a new order of being and, at the end, express the fullness of love, love not only for Siegfried but for Wotan and the whole inheritance of her godhood-become-humanity. Far from dying from the ring's curse, Brunnhilde dies by choice, as the ultimate act of love and the ultimate repudiation of power-lust, not succumbing to the curse of the ring but cleansing the world of it.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

That is a good point, that pretty much everyone in the Ring dies, so perhaps that isn't a very meaningful conclusion to draw.

But I'm not convinced that I'm wrong here. I think we should interpret the ring's curse as real. The music seems to make a big deal about it, though maybe I need to specifically look for instances of the appropriate family of leitmotifs.

Yes, Wotan's death, like Brünnhilde's, is by choice. They choose to no longer live because the world has moved beyond them and their ways, which was revealed by the ring. This is not as direct as, Fasolt, and Siegfried, who are each killed specifically to get the ring. But even Fafner does not die directly because of the ring (though he also does not seem to care or know how to go about gathering power), Siegfried kills him defending himself; the boy doesn't even know about the ring.

Alberich also doesn't die directly due to the curse, though I suppose it is his curse. I am pretty convinced that he does die shortly after we see him in _Siegfried_, but his death isn't important enough for us to see on stage.

I agree that the psychological base is vital to understanding what is going on. I'm going to think more on this.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> But even Fafner does not die directly because of the ring (though he also does not seem to care or know how to go about gathering power), ....


It seems to me that Fafner was too small minded to go for the absolute power. He was happy to simply guard his little horde, eat and sleep.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> It seems to me that Fafner was too small minded to go for the absolute power. He was happy to simply guard his little horde, eat and sleep.


The giants seem to embody base appetites, lack of imagination, and limited horizons, undisturbed by any comprehension of or aspiration to anything, either good or evil. They're like that group of Trump voters who just want to keep their jobs in the steel mills and would rather not think about what might happen to the country otherwise.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> They're like that group of Trump voters who just want to keep their jobs in the steel mills and would rather not think about what might happen to the country otherwise.


Downright deplorable! :lol:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Dragons, at least in Western lore, have always been ideal symbols for unbridled, mindless greed, seeking to horde gold and virgins when they have no real use for either. (In the East, dragons are more complicated.)


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

But Fafner's being a dragon is due to the Tarnhelm, not the Ring. It gets a little muddled there.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> But Fafner's being a dragon is due to the Tarnhelm, not the Ring. It gets a little muddled there.


That's okay, a little muddling is just fine so long as the music and singing is great!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> But Fafner's being a dragon is due to the Tarnhelm, not the Ring. It gets a little muddled there.


He uses the tarnhelm to become a dragon, to protect the ring (and his horde of gold). Where is the muddle? (On the other hand, is the magic of the tarnhelm somehow connected to The Ring? Alberich had the tarnhelm made, but apparently cannot make another one without the ring.)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JAS said:


> He uses the tarnhelm to become a dragon, to protect the ring (and his horde of gold). Where is the muddle? (On the other hand, is the magic of the tarnhelm somehow connected to The Ring? Alberich had the tarnhelm made, but apparently cannot make another one without the ring.)


Or the magic of the tarnhelm was initiated by the ring and now is self sustaining. Recall that Siegfried used the Tarnhelm to fool Brunhilde when she had possession of the ring.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Or the magic of the tarnhelm was initiated by the ring and now is self sustaining. Recall that Siegfried used the Tarnhelm to fool Brunhilde when she had possession of the ring.


My question would be that there was a connection in its creation. Presumably, after that, it would need to be self-sustaining. And that is an interesting question. What happened to the tarnhelm?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

JAS said:


> He uses the tarnhelm to become a dragon, to protect the ring (and his horde of gold). Where is the muddle? (On the other hand, is the magic of the tarnhelm somehow connected to The Ring? Alberich had the tarnhelm made, but apparently cannot make another one without the ring.)


Alberich used the power of the ring to force others (especially those that were weak-willed) to do his bidding. For the tarhelm, he forced Mime to make it for him. Without the ring, Alberich can't influence Mime, or any other great smith.

And Mime is entirely focused on raising Siegfried and Nothung. He is not that bright (even though he is a great smith), and not much of a planner. It makes sense that he doesn't think of making another tarnhelm. But also, the exacting specifications for making for the tarnhelm came from Alberich, possibly via the ring. It again makes sense that Mime does not remember everything. It is also possible that he would need the gold that Alberich had gathered and/or that extra push of Alberich to work up the motivation to make it in the first place.



JAS said:


> My question would be that there was a connection in its creation. Presumably, after that, it would need to be self-sustaining. And that is an interesting question. What happened to the tarnhelm?


In the original ending of _Siegfried's Tod_ it is specifically mentioned as being swept away by the Rhinemaidens:



> At the same time as the cloud lifts, the waves along the Rhine's bank swell up to the hall and the three waterwomen, lighted by the brightest moonlight, carry away the ring and the Tarnhelm: Hagen throws himself at them like a madman in an attempt to wrest the ring from them: The women seize him and drag him into the depths. Alberich sits down with a lamenting gesture.


But even here, the ring is primary. Hagen dives after both of them, but it is "an attempt to wrest the ring from them." Of course, this was discarded (as was having Alberich present) but I think a specific mention of the tarnhelm was discarded because the tarnhelm is not that important, and takes away from the focus on the ring. Similarly, earlier Alberich was upset about giving up the tarnhelm, but the ring proved his curse. Wotan was fine with throwing the tarnhelm on the pile of gold to ransom Freia, but he balked at giving up the ring.

At any rate, Siegfried had the tarnhelm. He was killed, carried on a bier, and burned in the ritualistic flames set by Brünnhilde. I think it is safe to assume that the tarnhelm was on him, and was consumed by the flames. Or, more importantly, it makes sense with the story that he had the tarnhelm and that it is gone.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> At any rate, Siegfried had the tarnhelm. He was killed, carried on a bier, and burned in the ritualistic flames set by Brünnhilde. I think it is safe to assume that the tarnhelm was on him, and was consumed by the flames. Or, more importantly, it makes sense with the story that he had the tarnhelm and that it is gone.


It is good to know that it is not just lying out there somewhere waiting to create more trouble. (We have quite enough of that these days.)


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Similarly, in my understanding of the Ring, it makes sense that Nothung is gone, too.

The magic and the gods are gone. The children of the gods are dead. The giants are gone. The Niebelungs are gone. 

The demi-gods/elementals are around, but they are in their own world. Erda sleeps, but she never bothered with anybody buy Wotan anyway. The Rheintöchteren play, and Loge still burns and confounds, but their personifications are typically not visible.

Siegfried and Brünnhilde died because they were tied to the gods; like the gods they were concerned more with the rules and rituals than morality.

I think the ridiculousness of Siegfried (especially up through meeting Brünnhilde; meeting her changed him) shows us that rules and rituals are not entirely bankrupt, but when they are followed without thinking, without compassion or empathy, they are ruinous.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Maybe it's the influence of Lord of the Rings on me, but I always kind of assumed that since the power of the Ring allowed Alberich to make the Tarnhelm, the Tarnhelm would lose its power once the Ring was back in the hands of the Rhinemaidens, and presumably unmade back into Rheingold. But I see now that I'm reading quite a lot into it that's not in Wagner's text.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> Maybe it's the influence of Lord of the Rings on me, but I always kind of assumed that since the power of the Ring allowed Alberich to make the Tarnhelm, the Tarnhelm would lose its power once the Ring was back in the hands of the Rhinemaidens, and presumably unmade back into Rheingold. But I see now that I'm reading quite a lot into it that's not in Wagner's text.


Well, the precise fate of the ring once it is back in the hands of the Rhinemaidens is also subject to conjecture. Do they guard it in its new form, or do they have a means of converting it back to a lump of gold? (It must be mighty hard to get a good fire going underwater. Perhaps we are to presume that it melted in the heat of the Siegfried's pyre.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> Well, the precise fate of the ring once it is back in the hands of the Rhinemaidens is also subject to conjecture. Do they guard it in its new form, or do they have a means of converting it back to a lump of gold? (It must be mighty hard to get a good fire going underwater. Perhaps we are to presume that it melted in the heat of the Siegfried's pyre.)


Wagner's fatal drama shows us that whatever happens there's no turning back: evolution can't be reversed. The gold has to be stolen and the ring forged, the apple has to be picked and eaten, the knowledge of good and evil must be gained, the Garden of Eden must be lost forever, and the sky gods, Jehovah and Allah and Wotan and their cousins, must perish in the fire of their own self-contradictions. Whether we humans will go on acting as if they are real and coveting the ring of power is up to us. Unfortunately the knowledge of good and evil must be gained in every human soul, and our education will always be incomplete.

The ring is still the gold, but now shaped by mind; unforged, it represented inchoate, preconscious life, to which we cannot return. I think the ring will remain a ring, that the Rhinemaidens, no longer naive, will guard it carefully, and that those who seek power will have to make do without the hope of world dominion. But temptation will always live in the dark waters at the bottom of the soul, and the dead gods will be invoked to wage war.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

*A First-Time Listener's Impressions of the Ring*

I'm resurrecting this thread to offer some of my thoughts on this great masterpiece...

I only started listening to opera about a month ago, so it was probably a foolish endeavor to try and listen to the Ring with only three other operas under my belt. But, having spent the last roughly 2 1/2 weeks with the cycle (taking 2-day breaks in between each opera to refresh myself with some Bach and Mozart), it feels like there is so much to discuss. There have been much better dramas, but no more effective music dramas. How does Wagner portray such an amazing palette of emotions and ideas through his brilliantly-scored music, from ecstatic love, betrayal, diabolical passion, creation, destruction, and ambition? There is much philosophical weight in the Ring that has left me pondering deeply since I finished it, but here I just wanted to adhere to the purpose of this thread and point out my favorite moments from the cycle.

- Both the first and last scenes of Das Rheingold. It starts with the awakening of a primordial force, and ends with a momentary blast of triumph.
- Magic Fire Music at the end of Die Walkure. This was my least favorite installment of the cycle because it seemed to drag so often. But the culmination of the final scene is incredibly poignant.
- Siegfried's alone time in the forest before his fight with Fafner. I wish there were more extended monologues like this throughout the Ring. This is probably the closest Wagner comes to a real aria in the cycle.
- The final scene of Siegfried where he resurrects Brunnhilde. This was by far my favorite music in the cycle. Just ravishing. Almost unbearably beautiful. 
- The entire Prologue of Gotterdammerung. Probably the most dramatically effective portion of the cycle for me.
- The Rhinemaiden scene in Gotterdammerung, and Siegfried's Funeral Music.

To sum it up, I now totally understand why Wagner is considered such an influential composer. But I can't imagine listening to him every day. It's music that has an intake limit. Too much of it, for me, would drive me off the wall. Sometimes his innovative form missed the mark for me, but when it works, it's incredibly special. Though I love the recurring leitmotifs, I do think it could have gone without the retellings of events in previous operas, which stopped up the flow of the plot IMO. The Ring is a gargantuan artistic achievement that is guaranteed to provide you with ideas to chew on. But as pure music and pure drama, it is almost unbeaten in the canon of Western art music.

Oh, and I listened to the Solti cycle. Obviously this is quite polarizing, and I definitely had mixed reactions to it. On one hand, his casting was almost impeccable with the luxury of employing such big names. I enjoyed immensely Nilsson's Brunnhilde, Windgassen's Siegfried, Frick's Hagen, Stolze's Mime (what a peculiar yet effective voice!), and many others. Only choice I would question is Hotter as Wotan; I found his singing slightly turgid. I really like whoever portrayed Wotan in Rheingold better (forgot his name right now). Solti's conducting is, of course, dynamic and often overwhelming, but very unnuanced. It sounds like he tried to put the signature incandescent sound of the VPO on overdrive and it lacks delicacy. I didn't feel like he strove to tell a story, it just came off sounding like orchestral showoffiness (for lack of a better term). But the sound was amazing, and I think it was a good choice for a first Ring experience simply because you could hear every detail clearly. I've heard great things about Bohm, Furtwangler, and Barenboim; so maybe I will check out some individual operas from them down the road.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The end, everything collapsed, all those hours watching and nothing in the end.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> The end, everything collapsed, all those hours watching and nothing in the end.


No, there's the 'redemption' motiv. There's redemption/compassion or whatever that musical theme means to you.

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rogerx said:


> The end, everything collapsed, *all those hours watching and nothing in the end*.


Ah yes, kind of like Strauss' Capriccio. At least with the Ring there is a ton of exciting action leading up to the nothing ending.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Rogerx said:


> The end, everything collapsed, all those hours watching and nothing in the end.


That's exactly what I thought!:lol: That's where the main philosophical point rests. The final appearance of the "redemption" motif is definitely poignant. But how can there be redemption if everyone in the story is destroyed? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single major character in all four of the operas (except the Rhinemaidens) survives until the end. To me, that kind of makes the idea of redemption moot, especially since Valhalla is also destroyed; therefore there's no hope after death. Even as pure music, I did find the ending just a tad disappointing- in a blink, it's all over, and my first thought once it was finished was, "What happened during those 15 hours again?"


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> That's exactly what I thought!:lol: That's where the main philosophical point rests. The final appearance of the "redemption" motif is definitely poignant. But how can there be redemption if everyone in the story is destroyed? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single major character in all four of the operas (except the Rhinemaidens) survives until the end. To me, that kind of makes the idea of redemption moot, especially since Valhalla is also destroyed; therefore there's no hope after death. Even as pure music, I did find the ending just a tad disappointing- in a blink, it's all over, and my first thought once it was finished was, "What happened during those 15 hours again?"


The names of the motifs weren't chosen by Wagner and I'm not sure, but I believe he never referred to it as the redemption motif. It's the same music as when Sieglinde praises Brunhilde for saving her life (and therefore Siegfried) in act three of Die Walkure. It's a statement of Brunhilde's selfless sacrifice.

The point for me at the end of the Ring is that it isn't a _literal_ end to the world, but the end of the old order and the start of a new way of doing things. Whilst all the characters we know (except the Rhinemaidens) are no more when the curtains come down, I don't think everyone in the world dies and so there are people waiting in the wings ready to try a new way of doing things.

I'm a cynic, so I doubt a new group of humans would behave any differently and so we also end up right where we started. However, for a brief, beautiful moment there's hope. Perhaps it would be more aptly named the hope motif.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> The names of the motifs weren't chosen by Wagner and I'm not sure, but I believe *he never referred to it as the redemption motif.* It's the same music as when Sieglinde praises Brunhilde for saving her life (and therefore Siegfried) in act three of Die Walkure. _It's a statement of Brunhilde's selfless sacrifice._
> 
> The point for me at the end of the Ring is that it isn't a _literal_ end to the world, but the end of the old order and the start of a new way of doing things. Whilst all the characters we know (except the Rhinemaidens) are no more when the curtains come down, I don't think everyone in the world dies and so there are people waiting in the wings ready to try a new way of doing things.
> 
> ...


Asked about it, I believe Wagner called it the "glorification of Brunnhilde." He may just have been momentarily acceding to someone demanding a name. As you say, he wasn't into limiting the significance of his motifs by giving them names, and he wasn't delighted by some of the names that got attached to them.


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## txtrnl341 (Jan 21, 2020)

Wow. That's hard! To pick out a favorite moment from 17 hours filled with favorite scenes, acts, or opera is, as a (yeah, I don't know which term is correct either) Wagnerian of 50+ years I guess I'd have to say the immolation scene. I agree about the Solti Ring as nothing new will, or could be, better than that one. When you have those singers and all the time to record to perfection 
I don't think we'll hear it's like again.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Ah yes, kind of like Strauss' Capriccio.


Can't agree with you here Fritz. I hear a glorious piece of music making with its central debate on the relative importance of the libretto versus the music in opera. Worth listening to with the score in hand to see how clever, and I mean that in the nicest sense, not pejoratively like most critics, Strauss's writing is. :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Can't agree with you here Fritz. I hear a glorious piece of music making with its central debate on the relative importance of the libretto versus the music in opera. Worth listening to with the score in hand to see how clever, and I mean that in the nicest sense, not pejoratively like most critics, Strauss's writing is. :tiphat:


I suppose the problem for me is that I watched a DVD and there is little action. Also the music was not all that exciting.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

The end of Act 2 with the Revenge trio. It sounds really dark and menacing.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

So many. As Die Walküre is my favourite opera, it's obvious I'd choose something from it.

Leb Wohl

But not just any-old Leb Wohl!

George London unrivalled in this scene, and no-one can ever match Knappertsbusch in this type of flowing, wave over wave mellifluous Wagnering!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The _Todesverkündigung_ scene from *Die Walküre*, the first thing I ever heard from the tetralogy.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I like the scene when Siegfried dies and Wotan cradles his head.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I like the scene when Siegfried dies and Wotan cradles his head.


Siegmund? I don't recall Wotan being around when Siegfried died.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I think Wotan's farewell is one of the most moving scenes in all opera. Who said that Wagner is not relatable because the characters happen to include gods? I think that Wotan's whole character is human in an extreme sense (definitely one of my favourite characters in Wagner's operas, if not the very favourite).

And then the instrumental ending of the _Götterdämmerung_ - gives me a similar feeling as finishing the last page of a _very_ good novel.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

SixFootScowl said:


> Siegmund? I don't recall Wotan being around when Siegfried died.


Oh, you're right. I got it mixed up with the scene when Gunter kills Sigmund and Wotan holds his dead body - and then sends Gunter to his death with the single word.

The scene when Hagen kills Siegfried is also pretty good.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> Oh, you're right. I got it mixed up with the scene when Gunter kills Sigmund and Wotan holds his dead body - and then sends Gunter to his death with the single word.


Hunding kills Siegmund.....


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

End of Act one of Walkure when Siegmund pulls Northung from the tree.
Music aside, i like to see the visual as well for just how badly it can be staged.
After much heroic singing, Northung can be revealed to be no bigger than a bread and butter knife. You wonder what the fuss was about.
The other is Siegmund's heroic effort to pull it from the tree,
Some remove it with much muscular and heroic effort and deserve Sieglinde's orgasmic response.
Others take it out like getting the mail from the letter box. Again Sieglinde's response reads funny at his lame effort.
We'll always have the music, though.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The Conte said:


> The point for me at the end of the Ring is that it isn't a _literal_ end to the world, but the end of the old order and the start of a new way of doing things. Whilst all the characters we know (except the Rhinemaidens) are no more when the curtains come down, I don't think everyone in the world dies and so there are people waiting in the wings ready to try a new way of doing things.


This is not only implicit in the libretto; the world that ends, is only the world of the Gods and all the cabals and problems of the whole story. Now the age for "liberated (from greed and enslaving contracts) humanity" begins.

"Aus den Trümmern der zusammengestürzten Halle sehen die Männer und Frauen, in höchster Ergriffenheit, dem wachsenden Feuerscheine am Himmel zu."
From the ruins of the collapsed hall the men and women watch the growing fiery glow in the sky with deep emotion.
(from the last text block of stage instructions in the last scene)

That means for me, that these people both survive the cataclysm of the Gods and also grasp at least a hint of its significance and their future roles and tasks in that new world.

FWIW, I don't think I have a favorite beyond the usual suspects. I love Sieglinde's narration of Wotan as Wälse putting the sword into the tree very much, probably more than the following Winterstürme, recognition, love scene etc.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The scene in Act 3 of Siegfried where Wotan confronts Siegfried.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Hunding kills Siegmund.....


 Yep. I get these people mixed up.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

The usual suspects:
1) Wotan's Farewell / Fire music
2) Immolation Scene

The not-so-usual suspects:
1) Alberich's Curse
2) Scene where Brunhilde announces herself to Siegmund
3) Hagen's Watch
4) Donner Summons the Mists

The unusual suspects:
1) Mime / Siegfried interaction in Act I as pure comic relief (each time Mime's "love and care" leitmotif is heard how it infuriates Siegfried)
2) Distant hunting horns just before the final scene of Act II of Die Walkure. The atmosphere!!!
3) Most every Loge bit in Scenes 2 and 4 of Das Rheingold. Again, the comic relief and the irony.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> The scene in Act 3 of Siegfried where Wotan confronts Siegfried.


Yes,, I like that part too....in Walkure, Wotan's staff shatters the sword, and Siegmund is killed....this time, the brash Siegfried [he's too stupid. or innocent, to be scared] blows right thru him. smashes Wotan's staff...<<Get out of my way, you old geezer!!>>


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The plaintive cries of Freia as the giants haul her away.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Yes,, I like that part too....in Walkure, Wotan's staff shatters the sword, and Siegmund is killed....this time, the brash Siegfried [he's too stupid. or innocent, to be scared] blows right thru him. smashes Wotan's staff...<<Get out of my way, you old geezer!!>>


That's a pivotal moment. The re-forged sword of the most free hero (freer than I, the God, says Wotan earlier) shatters the world of deceptive contracts (the spear). Whereas in Walküre Wotan had to kill Siegmund against his will (Brünnhilde represents his "split off wish" to give Siegmund victory) because Fricka could force him to punish Siegmund for abusing hospitality, adultery and eloping with Sieglinde.

There is a double disc as companion for the Solti Ring with all the leitmotifs and examples of their combination and the prelude to Siegfried Act III is used as one of the larger examples of their transformation and combination.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> There is a double disc as companion for the Solti Ring with all the leitmotifs and examples of their combination and the prelude to Siegfried Act III is used as one of the larger examples of their transformation and combination.


It is well worth listening, particularly for neophytes.

















No extra charge for the shadow effect on the second photo! :lol:


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

I would say that my favorite moment in the Ring Cycle is Wotan's Farewell and the Fire Music of the finale of Die Walkure. That entire ending is one of the most musically moving moments in all of opera for me. Honorable mentions include the following scenes from each opera:

1) Das Rheingold: The Entry of the Giants, The Descent into Nibelheim, Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla

2) Die Walkure: Entry of Hunding

3) Siegfried: Siegfried Forging Nothung, Wotan Warning Fafner, Brunhilde's Awakening 

4) Gotterdammerung: Siegfried's Funeral, Immolation Scene


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Yes, I like the forging section as well - Siegfried's _Hoho! Hoho! Hohei!_ exclamations seem like a young ruck's equivalent of the Valkyries' _Hojotoho! Heiaha!_ greeting call.


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