# A Bizarre And Foolish Claim in Opera Magazine



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

in the online August edition of _Opera_ magazine I came across a truly bizarre and foolish comment. It's a review by Max Loppert of Dukas' _Ariane et Barbe-bleue_ (DVD) and appears on page 1075:



> Ariane et Barbe-bleue embodies one of the three bold music-theatre paths taken by major French composers in the wake of Pelleas et Melisande (1903) [sic] (Nos 2 and 3 are of course Faure's Penelope, 1913, and Roussel's Padmavati, 1923.) As the years pass, and the later three become ever more clearly revealed as key 20th-century operatic masterpieces *on a par* with Pelleas, it is the unrepeatable originality of Ariane, for all its apparent debts to Wagner and Mussorgsky and superficial ties to conventional grand opera, that elicits astonished and impassioned enthusiasm every time.



Did you see that? He says that _Ariane et Barbe-bleue_, _Padmavati_ and _Penelope_ (Faure's _Penelope_ ??!!) are _key_ operatic masterpieces on a par with Pelleas.

I'm speechless.

Seriously, *how* can these lines get printed in the world's premier opera magazine in the year 2013?!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Well, can you prove that they aren't operatic masterpieces on a par with Pelleas? I mean, it's all good and well ridiculing someone you disagree with, but can you prove that they deserve to be ridiculed?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Intrigued to hear those 3 now if anything...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm intrigued as well! I have never heard any negative criticism of these operas and if they get this much praise then they must be good and much underappreciated. Fauré is a brilliant composer, I know that much, Roussel Iand Dukas 'm not so familiar with but I'm looking forward to hearing more of their music now. 

This is one reason why I love TC: new discoveries, introductions to little known works. We can thank Xavier here for this! 

Does anyone know any recordings?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

On a slightly different note, I'm more inclined to agree with the person who has more credibility. I do not wish to be offensive and correct me if I am wrong, but in this case I think that a reviewer from the world's best opera magazine who has studied music, it's history, performance, theory and composition etc. for many years would have a tad more credibility on the matter at hand than you, Xavier. You don't seem to hold these operas in high regard, why so? You've attacked your opponent and now it would be interesting to read your opinion and reason for doing so.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, arguing that those three operas are as fundamental to French Opera like Pelléas is certainly far-fetched. Because, in terms of personal taste, anything is fine, but it's now almost 100 years since the last of those four operas were written, and it's pretty clear the impact of them has been very less than Pelléas, indeed. Even in the opera sub-forum, I bet quite a few members are not familiar with anyone of them except, possibly, Ariane.

Of course, we don't know what future will bring, but I think is unlikely that it will get a lot of agreement to Mr. Loppert's claim. With the same grounds, I could pretend that Hahn's _Le Marchand de Venise_, that I happen to like a lot, is a centerpiece of French repertoire, but I'm afraid many people would disagree.

Ariane is also based on a Maeterlinck's play. This is a nice, even a very nice, opera, though it could be a little bit on the monotonous's side for some people. I think the best introduction could be the recent DVD from Barcelona's Liceu:










I like a lot _Padmavati_. Some years ago (well, this was about 18 years ago, I'm growing old), I was in the ruins of the Fort of Chittor myself, and remembered, in that remote era without the iPod or the iPhone, Roussel's opera.

Funny enough, he was inspired by French and Indian sources, and get it wrong, because the legend of Padmâvati is about the first siege of Chittor, in early 14th century, during a war with the sultan of Delhi, who was in fact not a Mongol, but one of his fiercest enemies, and defeated them at that time. The Mongols were not succesful in India until the times of Timur Lane, almost one hundred years later, and the real conquest of India was performed by some of his descendents, already in the 16th century.

But, musically, the way Indian's music inspired Roussel is quite interesting, moreover if one likes that music in the first place. There are a couple of recordings, this is my favorite:










I'm not that fond of _Pénélope_, and I have only heard the CD with Vanzo, Van Dam, Norman,...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Debussy: Pelleas was 1902.
Faure: Penelope 1913
Roussel: Padmavati 1923
Dukas: Ariane et Barbe-bleue 1906

_Dukas' Ariane et Barbe-bleue (1906) has often been compared to Debussy's opera Pelléas et Mélisande (1902), also based on a Maeterlinck play. It was conducted by Alexander von Zemlinsky at the Vienna Volksoper on 2 April 1908. Arnold Schoenberg and his pupils Alban Berg and Anton Webern were in the audience and expressed their admiration for the music._

This explains everything; because Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern liked it. An oblique jab at modernism by an operatic conservative.

You might want to know about the threads "Is modern opera rubbish?," "Is Elliott Carter A Great Composer?", and "Will Modern Music Ever Become Accepted?".


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

schigolch said:


> Well, arguing that those three operas are as fundamental to French Opera like Pelléas is certainly far-fetched. Because, in terms of personal taste, anything is fine, but it's now almost 100 years since the last of those four operas were written, and it's pretty clear the impact of them has been very less than Pelléas, indeed. Even in the opera sub-forum, I bet quite a few members are not familiar with anyone of them except, possibly, Ariane.
> 
> Of course, we don't know what future will bring, but I think is unlikely that it will get a lot of agreement to Mr. Loppert's claim. With the same grounds, I could pretend that Hahn's _Le Marchand de Venise_, that I happen to like a lot, is a centerpiece of French repertoire, but I'm afraid many people would disagree.
> 
> ...


That's hell of a cast in "Padmavati".


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Of these French operas, only Pelleas is well known to the opera going public , and it has a lot more recordings than the others, too . I think they're all masterpieces, each great in its own way .
Pelleas has been recorded by such eminent conductors as Boulez, Ansermet, Dutoit, Abbado ,
Karajan , Cluytens and others , but the others have only one or two each . 
Padmavati is without a doubt one of the most original and striking operas of the 20th century .


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I haven't heard them but the three operas that have been cited seem to have been admired down the years, even if they haven't been staged as often as P & M. As with countless other works, comparative neglect is not necessarily an indication of lack of quality.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

What's so great about Debussy's Pelleas? I've got it, and it seems to just wander around in a state of harmonic suspension. I mean, was opera really suited for Debussy, and vice-versa? Seems like an ill-fitting suit to me.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

moody said:


> That's hell of a cast in "Padmavati".


The alternative is not bad, either:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> What's so great about Debussy's Pelleas? I've got it, and it seems to just wander around...


"In opera, there is always too much singing." --Claude Debussy


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## Downbeat (Jul 10, 2013)

I haven't heard of any of them, I have to admit. It is true that magazines tend to be a bit sensationalist...even the serious ones. Perhaps getting this sort of reaction from readers could be one of their objectives?


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Coming to Xavier's defense, I don't think he was really slamming the operas but the absolutism of the author, for deciding that 3 French operas from many were essentially the finest. The comments Xavier made were, I think, that he disagreed with the "final decision" about these 3 operas without any equivocation.

Maybe I'm wrong. Often am.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The so-called Moghuls of India were not actually Mongols but central asian Turks who claimed descent from Ghenghis Khan, who was in fact half Turk himself on his mother's side . The modern day Uzbek languge of central asia is very similar to the Turkic dialect they spoke . Timur was of the same origin . 
They were Muslims and did not speak Mongolian . They were bilingual in Turkic and Persian .


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> What's so great about Debussy's Pelleas? I've got it, and it seems to just wander around in a state of harmonic suspension. I mean, was opera really suited for Debussy, and vice-versa? Seems like an ill-fitting suit to me.


There's nothing about 'Pelleas' that isn't already in 'Parsifal.' If you can appreciate 'Parsifal,' you're halfway to an appreciation of 'Pelleas,' which is a more diffuse version of the shape-shifting spiritual magic that is Act 1 of 'Parsifal.' Debussy takes that "wandering around in a state of harmonic suspension" and crystallizes it into moments of pure musical beauty. The key to entering this garden of secrets is to hear it as continuous music. It all sounds disconnected at first but gradually it begins to coagulate into shapes that follow their own internal logic.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Glissando said:


> There's nothing about 'Pelleas' that isn't already in 'Parsifal.' If you can appreciate 'Parsifal,' you're halfway to an appreciation of 'Pelleas,' which is a more diffuse version of the shape-shifting spiritual magic that is Act 1 of 'Parsifal.' Debussy takes that "wandering around in a state of harmonic suspension" and crystallizes it into moments of pure musical beauty. The key to entering this garden of secrets is to hear it as continuous music. It all sounds disconnected at first but gradually it begins to coagulate into shapes that follow their own internal logic.


Wow - great review, thanks! I'll have to give it another try ...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ P&M is more accessible than any Wagner. P&M just go on conversing at a mellow pace for the length of it. And then you read the libretto and find out there was a big drama going on!  it's pretty music to be sure.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd like to understand what's happening dramatically tho. I mean, Wikipedia says the play was very popular. What was the attraction? I can't imagine it myself. It seems like a key to a different world.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> What was the attraction? I can't imagine it myself. It seems like a key to a different world.


I suspect they were all high on absinthe


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