# What is Beethoven's most overrated work?



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Inspired by the RogerWater's Brahms thread
I think Brahms doesn't have overrated works, but I am sure that Beethoven does!

Oops! Forgot to make poll multiple choice. And I see a typo; I mean Symphony no. 6 "Pastoral"!


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

It depends from whose perspective is considered overrated.
For the occasional classical music listener, *Fur Elise* or* mov.1 of Piano Sonata no.14 "Moonlight''*, are Beethoven's masterpieces but for the serious listener they aren't.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I don't know any work by LvB that is over rated,,


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I picked the violin concerto, listening to it less and less over the years to the point where I don't bother with it now.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Wellington's Victory

The one that made him the most money anyway!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Handelian said:


> Wellington's Victory
> 
> The one that made him the most money anyway!


I understand it was his most popular piece when he was alive.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I don't seem to get the same kind of enjoyment out of his symphonies that many others seem to get and listen to them only very occasionally. His best works are imho piano sonatas and the string quartets and the mass, I also like his opera more than others seem to like it.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2020)

I think "Missa Solemnis" qualifies here. Yes, I'd go so far as to say it's over-rated. Why? The orchestration and choir are dense and muddy and rather leaden and one-dimensional. And it's loaded to the brim with ponderous, loud chords and cadences which I feel are disappointing for a composer of the imagination of Beethoven. I've always had the feeling he was half-hearted about the work, judging by the finished product, though I cannot recall for the moment exactly whether it was a commission and for whom.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Christabel said:


> I think "Missa Solemnis" qualifies here. Yes, I'd go so far as to say it's over-rated. Why? The orchestration and choir are dense and muddy and rather leaden and one-dimensional. And it's loaded to the brim with ponderous, loud chords and cadences which I feel are disappointing for a composer of the imagination of Beethoven. I've always had the feeling he was half-hearted about the work, judging by the finished product, though I cannot recall for the moment exactly whether it was a commission and for whom.


Beethoven considered the Missa Solemnis his best work and felt he gave the most to it. 
What did Beethoven consider to be his greatest work?

my personal choice for the most overrated Beethoven work would be Symphony 9. Yes, it is a great symphony, but far less great than it is made out to be.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

janxharris said:


> I understand it was his most popular piece when he was alive.


Quite right! Beethoven's opinion of it was unprintable!


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Can’t find any!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

There's a lot of late Beethoven stuff I appreciate, but I don't think the C minor, Op.111 really deserves the praise it gets compared to his other masterpieces (I think the A major, Op.101 is underrated in comparison). 
I don't think it's structurally "original" as people make it out to be- the first movement reminds me of Beethoven's own Pathetique and Appassionata (also Mozart's K.475 and K.546, as I mentioned before -"stile Patetico"). I still think it's "original", it just doesn't deserve the the kind of "image" people usually attribute to general late Beethoven stuff. (I mean how people always talk as if it's something that was "never done previously").
And yet, the first movement is fine,
but with the second movement, I can't help but think of his own Fantasie Op.77. Particularly this part:




, which I also don't find particularly interesting compared to his other masterpieces.
The ending (the last 2 minutes or so) is "dreamy" though.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

When will these people learn that the fifth symphony has nothing to do with fate...

As for the most overrated: _Egmont_.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> When will these people learn that the fifth symphony has nothing to do with fate...


Just like the so called "Moonlight" Sonata, "Emperor" Piano Concerto.
I hate these nicknames...


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Violin concerto. a bit boring.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

A toss-up between the ninth symphony and Grosse Fuge.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> When will these people learn that the fifth symphony has nothing to do with fate...





Skakner said:


> Just like the so called "Moonlight" Sonata, "Emperor" Piano Concerto.
> I hate these nicknames...


Virtually no one uses "Fate" as a nickname for the Fifth Symphony and, in any case, the application of the term to the Symphony's opening motive is attributed to Beethoven himself, albeit by an unreliable source. According to Anton Schindler, Beethoven said of the four note motive: "Thus Fate knocks upon the door." This attribution was given legs by A. B. Marx, who used it as the basis of a famous interpretation of the work in his Beethoven _Leben und Schaffen_ (1859). It's therefore, on three counts, quite different from the famous nicknames ascribed to other works. As a nickname, I find it much more annoying than the others.

As for the question in the OP: I could do what everyone else is doing and just list a work I don't like as much as the others but I'll wait til someone actually asks for that.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Agamenon said:


> Violin concerto. a bit boring.


Did he write another one then? The Op 61 is sublime, the greatest violin concerto ever.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> ...
> As for the question in the OP: I could do what everyone else is doing and just list a work I don't like as much as the others but I'll wait til someone actually asks for that.


Isn't that what we always do with such questions anyway though? There are also Beethoven works that I think are underrated or maybe underplayed, like the cello sonatas or the C major Mass. The thing about Beethoven is that he was such a demigod to so many in the 19th and well into the 20th centuries that I think a lot of his music is/was overplayed rather than "overrated"...especially the symphonies.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Handelian said:


> Did he write another one then? The one I know is sublime, the greatest violin concerto ever.


It's great, but I prefer the Sibelius.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

I like the Violin Concerto a lot. I also like the piano version of it.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I think his Gross Fuge is way ahead of its time, but retains some elements within the time, which still doesn't make it a great piece.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I really can't stand the Missa Solemnis. Maybe I just haven't found the right recording, but it sounds like an hour and a half of bombastic, over-the-top shouting and vocalists that sound severely strained, and I find the famous Benedictus to be boring. Ditto with the 7th symphony, which I just find to be bland and tedious.

As far as _underrated_, I would go with the Diabelli Variations.


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## Isaac Blackburn (Feb 26, 2020)

I don't know that the Ninth is overrated. Its true depth and genius is beyond the ability of most to even comprehend. 
That being said, sometimes it is treated as the be-all and end-all of music, the "greatest achievement of humanity", which has never been topped and never will be. It has attained (along with the Fifth) a morass of cultural and musical superlatives that sometimes obscure a more objective appreciation.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Considering the current positions of the works at the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works, I would say that here at TC the most overrated Beethoven work is the _Waldstein_ piano sonata. Of the Beethoven sonatas, it's below only the _Hammerklavier_ in that list, and above some masterpieces such as the Op. 127, Op. 132 and Op. 135 string quartets, the _Diabelli_ variations, the _Emperor_ and the violin concertos, the opera _Fidelio_, the Mass in C and the _Missa Solemnis_.

Contrary to what the results of the poll so far suggest, the _Missa Solemnis_ is actually an underrated and underplayed masterpiece, a work that Beethoven himself considered his greatest but that many people around here seem to not "get", perhaps because it's so difficult to find a reasonable performance of this awesome work.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I picked the violin concerto, listening to it less and less over the years to the point where I don't bother with it now.


Agree entirely


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Calipso said:


> The most overrated composer in history is Beethoven. I always laugh when people take him in same category with Mozart and Bach. I cant believe. Jesus, are you crazy! Mozart and Bach are class above him.


I don't understand how anyone can say that Beethoven is _overrated_. They might as well have never been able to hear.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I sang in the Missa Solemnis a couple of years ago. Other than some nice moments in the Kyrie, I think it is overrated. And my vocal chords are still recovering from all that screaming.

Otherwise I cannot think of a work from Beethoven that gets undeserved praise.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Beethoven's _Piano Concerto #2_ is not memorable. Even though Beethoven is my favorite composer, I never gravitated to _Fidelio_, and there a couple dozen operas I'd probably rather listen to. There's nothing wrong with _Wellington's Victory_ and it can't be overrated because no music critic or classical music establishment organization ever said it was a masterpiece.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Beethoven's most overrated work?*

This bit of tripe.






I can't think of anything else that qualifies.


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

I find the concept of _over-rated_, over-rated.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I find that comment lacking any truth.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I sang in the Missa Solemnis a couple of years ago. Other than some nice moments in the Kyrie, I think it is overrated. And my vocal chords are still recovering from all that screaming.
> 
> Otherwise I cannot think of a work from Beethoven that gets undeserved praise.


Haven't you heard? Beethoven didn't write for singers!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

I don't get all the dislike for _Missa Solemnis_. I was just listening to it yesterday (Klemperer's recording) and was enraptured; I think it can be a bit deceptively erudite for all its supposed bombast and this might be where some people are coming from.

I voted for the other for the _Pastoral_. I like it, and get its originality, but don't get why it is grouped with his "great" symphonies of 3,5,7,9.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BachIsBest said:


> I voted for the other for the _Pastoral_. I like it, and get its originality, but don't get why it is grouped with his "great" symphonies of 3,5,7,9.


I think the 3rd and 9th are more interesting in terms of originality as well.



hammeredklavier said:


> Aside from Pavel Wranitzky's Grand Symphony for the Peace with French Republic Op.31 (1797),
> J.H. Knecht's "Le portrait musical de la nature (1784)" is another good example of 18th century musical programme. ( the smooth transition between the 4th and 5th movements, and thematic linking of the 1st and 4th movements are also interesting. I think Wranitzky also has these elements, in the 1st, 3rd, final movements of his Grand symphony. )
> I think J.H. Knecht was to Beethoven in a similar way the Salzburg post-baroque master J.E. Eberlin was to Mozart. Expressions like this -[ 0:27 ] remind me of Beethoven's 9th -[ 3:27 ]. Both Knecht and Beethoven sound more "pastoral" in feel to me than Mozart.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> I don't get all the dislike for _Missa Solemnis_. I was just listening to it yesterday (Klemperer's recording) and was enraptured; I think it can be a bit deceptively erudite for all its supposed bombast and this might be where some people are coming from.
> 
> I voted for the other for the _Pastoral_. I like it, and get its originality, but don't get why it is grouped with his "great" symphonies of 3,5,7,9.


I view the Missa Solemnis as one of the greatest religious works of all time, yet a bit sloppy. Out of the three recordings I've heard, Klemperer's is the best.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I didn’t know Fur Elise was rated all that highly to begin with.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I didn't know Fur Elise was rated all that highly to begin with.


"Why Beethoven's 'Für Elise' is an unexpectedly sophisticated piece of music"
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/beethoven-fur-elise-sophisticated-masterpiece/


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> I don't get all the dislike for _Missa Solemnis_. I was just listening to it yesterday (Klemperer's recording) and was enraptured; I think it can be a bit deceptively erudite for all its supposed bombast and this might be where some people are coming from.
> 
> I voted for the other for the _Pastoral_. I like it, and get its originality, but don't get why it is grouped with his "great" symphonies of 3,5,7,9.


I'd say the consensus ranking is:

9
5
3
7
6
4
8
1
2

So I don't agree the 6th is overrated.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'd say the consensus ranking is:
> 
> 9
> 5
> ...


I'd agree with something like that (the order of 9, 5, and 3 would depend on my mood) but the general impression I got was that the 6th was generally in the mix with 5, 3, and 7.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

On Talk Classical's Favorite Works its 9 > 5 > 6 > 3 > 7.

For me, it's his best symphony and one of the greatest works ever written.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'd say the consensus ranking is:
> 
> 9
> 5
> ...


The ranking is more like:
9
5
.
3
7
.
6
.
.
.
.
.
.
4
.
8
.
.
1
2


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

ORigel said:


> The ranking is more like:
> 9
> 5
> .
> ...


Bingo. Except I'd put a couple of spaces between 3 and 7.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I didn't know Fur Elise was rated all that highly to begin with.


Just happens to be easy to play.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Would say opening movement of his Symphony no 5 but love the rest of it. Wouldn't say any of the other works are overrated!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I feel Beethoven overrated his own Missa Solemnis.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Wellington's Victory
> 
> The one that made him the most money anyway!





janxharris said:


> I understand it was his most popular piece when he was alive.


OMG, it was such a cash grab. A successful cash grab.

Everyone, at the time, loved *Wellington's Victory*.

So it _*was*_ overrated. It's now not rated very highly at all. Probably at the bottom nowadays.

And, at the bottom, it's still overrated. :lol:


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Handelian said:


> Did he write another one then? The Op 61 is sublime, the greatest violin concerto ever.


Yes, when I look at the score and the simplicity and the mundane/unremarkable ideas, I am humbled because of what he acheived as the whole. No element was too obvious/'elementary' for him to build on? He wasn't overly concerned about this, but he did write about it.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

ORigel said:


> Inspired by the RogerWater's Brahms thread
> I think Brahms doesn't have overrated works, but I am sure that Beethoven does!


I disagree. When Beethoven flopped, which wasn't often, he flopped in a big way, and most people nowadays would agree. IMHO, it's not that any particular Beethoven work is overrated, it's that his work in general is vastly over-performed and over-recorded, most if not all of the works on your list included. I'd point especially to the symphonies -- all of them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ORigel said:


> I think Brahms doesn't have overrated works, but I am sure that Beethoven does!


Brahms destroyed his works that would potentially become overrated


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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

Choosing from the given options, I picked the _Kreutzer _Sonata. It's a fine work, but doesn't merit the legendary status it has acquired thanks to Tolstoy. The last movement was not even newly composed.

Fur Elise is one of the best bagatelles.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I feel Beethoven overrated his own Missa Solemnis.


I feel Mozart overrated his own E flat quintet K.452, btw


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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I feel Mozart overrated his own E flat quintet K.452, btw


No way. The interplay of voices in that quintet is _amazing_.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> I feel Mozart overrated his own E flat quintet K.452, btw


Interesting. What do you think he wrote up to that time that was better?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I feel Mozart overrated his own E flat quintet K.452, btw


Thanks for bringing that up.

""The best thing I have ever written," is how Mozart exuberantly characterized his E-flat Quintet, K. 452, to his father Leopold, a few days after its premiere on April 1, 1784, in Vienna's Burgtheater. "How I wish you could have heard it, and how beautifully it was performed! The audience was enthusiastic." We might question the composer's evaluation of this ingratiating charmer, but another vote of confidence came from no less than Ludwig van Beethoven, who modeled his own Op. 16 Quintet upon the work in 1797.
Mozart was in the middle of a great period of piano concertos - six in 1784 alone - and the keyboard part in the quintet reveals many signs of this preoccupation. Yet the work is also a deftly scored partnership of true chamber intimacy and responsive give-and-take. Mozart was developing a fresh style for obbligato wind parts in his concertos of this period, which this quintet allowed him to expand."

https://www.laphil.com/musicdb/pieces/3019/quintet-for-in-e-flat-major-k-452


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## etipou (Dec 4, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Interesting. What do you think he wrote up to that time that was better?


I love the Eb quintet hyperbolically. But it's a startling assessment considering it was written after the 9th piano concerto, the sinfonia concertante for violin & viola, and the great quartets in G, D minor and Eb (not to mention Idomeneo & Die Entfuhrung, though I doubt he meant the comparison to apply to those). To me, it stands easily in the company of these works but I cannot hear that it is superior to them...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> I feel Mozart overrated his own E flat quintet K.452, btw


No Way...that's a wonderful work...one my favorite Mozart works...


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Caryatid said:


> Choosing from the given options, I picked the _Kreutzer _Sonata. It's a fine work, but doesn't merit the legendary status it has acquired thanks to Tolstoy. The last movement was not even newly composed.
> 
> Fur Elise is one of the best bagatelles.


One could go further and say the violin sonatas on the whole are not on the same level as the piano sonatas or string quartets. But imo this isn't because they aren't as well written, but rather, because Beethoven chose the piano sonatas and string quartets (and the symphonies, of course) to express many of his most radical, original ideas, and these, in the fullness of time, are what most firmly cement Beethoven's first place standing in the composer's league (for those of you who remember Peter Schickele's hilarious spoof). Beethoven's main concept of the solo violin was one of spare, noble classicism so perfectly executed in the violin concerto. His was the violin of Kreutzer (who ironically had little interest in the sonata that bore his name) and Rode (for whom the final sonata was written), before the instrument was changed profoundly and permanently by Paganini.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Interesting. What do you think he wrote up to that time that was better?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I sang in the Missa Solemnis a couple of years ago. Other than some nice moments in the Kyrie, I think it is overrated. And my vocal chords are still recovering from all that screaming.


That's interesting. I also sang in the _Missa_ many years ago, and hearing it "from the inside" heightened my appreciation of it. I do feel, in most performances, that Beethoven may have tried for slightly more than he achieved, but it might be more accurate to say that he tried for more than we hardworking musicians can achieve in meeting his demands. I've enjoyed HIP-ish performances like Gardiner's that present a somewhat more slender and transparent sound picture, counteracting the temptation to heaviness that can make the work seem overwrought and tiring.

Overrated? No, I don't think so. Just under-realized in performance.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> That's interesting. I also sang in the _Missa_ many years ago, and hearing it "from the inside" heightened my appreciation of it. I do feel, in most performances, that Beethoven may have tried for slightly more than he achieved, but it might be more accurate to say that he tried for more than we hardworking musicians can achieve in meeting his demands. I've enjoyed HIP-ish performances like Gardiner's that present a somewhat more slender and transparent sound picture, counteracting the temptation to heaviness that can make the work seem overwrought and tiring.
> 
> Overrated? No, I don't think so. Just under-realized in performance.


Interesting: I'm not a huge fan of Gardiner performance yet still hold the work in high regards. What do you think of the famous Klemperer recording (i.e. do you think it makes it sound overwrought and tiring)?


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Triple Concerto


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I feel Beethoven overrated his own Missa Solemnis.


No he didn't over-rate it but certainly over-wrote it for the musicians of the day. As Swafford points out in his biography, it is only relatively recently in the age of professional conductors and cracks choirs and orchestras that the Missa is able to be performed anything like Beethoven intended. I know the first Gardiner recording was regarded as a revelation as it was recorded with a professional choir which could actually sing the notes as Beethoven wrote them. Of course the same was true of the strong quartets but all Beethoven wold say to the protests was 'What is your ******* fiddle to me when my God speaks to me!"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BachIsBest said:


> Interesting: I'm not a huge fan of Gardiner performance yet still hold the work in high regards. What do you think of the famous Klemperer recording (i.e. do you think it makes it sound overwrought and tiring)?


I respect and enjoy the Klemperer, especially his superb soloists, though I prefer a less monumental approach. To be honest, I haven't heard many versions, so there may well be recordings I'd like better than Gardiner's. But between these two I prefer Gardiner's slightly.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

(I placed this on the wrong thread. There are so many "overrated" threads going, that I accidentally misplaced my thoughts in the wrong one. I'll copy and past it in the right venue.)


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Handelian said:


> No he didn't over-rate it but certainly over-wrote it for the musicians of the day. As Swafford points out in his biography, it is only relatively recently in the age of professional conductors and cracks choirs and orchestras that the Missa is able to be performed anything like Beethoven intended. I know the first Gardiner recording was regarded as a revelation as it was recorded with a professional choir which could actually sing the notes as Beethoven wrote them. Of course the same was true of the strong quartets but all Beethoven wold say to the protests was 'What is your ******* fiddle to me when my God speaks to me!"


I hardly think the Gardiner recording was the first where the choir could sing the notes as they were written.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> I hardly think the Gardiner recording was the first where the choir could sing the notes as they were written.


Just going by how it was received at the time.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Just going by how it was received at the time.


A new recording being well received does not mean that in every previous recording the musicians could not physically perform the written notes. That's an absurd position to take.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> A new recording being well received does not mean that in every previous recording the musicians could not physically perform the written notes. That's an absurd position to take.


As I say that is how it was received at the time by critical opinion. It was one of the first times that a professional choir had recorded it.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> Interesting: I'm not a huge fan of Gardiner performance yet still hold the work in high regards. What do you think of the famous Klemperer recording (i.e. do you think it makes it sound overwrought and tiring)?


Klemperer lumbers in the fugues. His soloists are an ill matched bunch too.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BachIsBest said:


> A new recording being well received does not mean that in every previous recording the musicians could not physically perform the written notes. That's an absurd position to take.


I can assure the anonymous critics referenced above that the _Missa Solemnis_ is vocally taxing but far from unsingable. The performance I sang in was in Washington, D.C. under Antal Dorati, and the choir consisted mainly of university students. We were carefully drilled and, so far as I could tell, sang all the notes as written.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Klemperer lumbers in the fugues. His soloists are an ill matched bunch too.


As far as I can tell, however, they do sing the notes as written. I would also have to disagree about the fugues, I believe Klemperer is actually a bit faster than most recordings of the era.


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## MisterSolemnis (Dec 22, 2020)

Christabel said:


> I think "Missa Solemnis" qualifies here. Yes, I'd go so far as to say it's over-rated. Why? The orchestration and choir are dense and muddy and rather leaden and one-dimensional. And it's loaded to the brim with ponderous, loud chords and cadences which I feel are disappointing for a composer of the imagination of Beethoven. I've always had the feeling he was half-hearted about the work, judging by the finished product, though I cannot recall for the moment exactly whether it was a commission and for whom.


  MisterSolemnis obviously disagrees with you. 

I might say, knowing that Heaven and Earth will rain down upon me, that I haven't warmed yet as much as I should to the Grosse Fugue. I watched that whole Richard Atkinson Demystifying ... piece, but it seems that it is heralded as much for its technical complexity and uniqueness as it is for its ear-pleasing qualities. I'm not a musician to speak of, so I have only my ears. Where am I wrong?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

MisterSolemnis said:


> MisterSolemnis obviously disagrees with you.
> 
> I might say, knowing that Heaven and Earth will rain down upon me, that I haven't warmed yet as much as I should to the Grosse Fugue. I watched that whole Richard Atkinson Demystifying ... piece, but it seems that it is heralded as much for its technical complexity and uniqueness as it is for its ear-pleasing qualities. I'm not a musician to speak of, so I have only my ears. Where am I wrong?


Not an expert here, but I don't think there is a definite right or wrong. It's a unique piece in his output. There is no forcing to appreciate something, but has to come naturally. There are some relatively unpleasant sounding parts, with more autonomy in the different instruments. Yet they still interact with each other. It can sound magical or it can sound confusing like it did to the audience and critics of its time.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

By 1815 LvB was mostly deaf, he was no longer able to talk to people normally.

He started his Solemn Mass in 1819.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Luchesi said:


> By 1815 LvB was mostly deaf, he was no longer able to talk to people normally.
> 
> He started his Solemn Mass in 1819.


Yes but I think his deafness is exploited too much to create the character and his greatness.

His only pupil said he had extensive sketches ^maybe up to his ninth symphony^, ideas, sketches, a blueprint of where the work would go. he had perfect pitch and was one of the great genius in music history. I think he could still manage it quite well.

Its not like he started from square one and was suddenly uneducated in music theory and craftmanship.

Just my two cents...


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> As far as I can tell, however, they do sing the notes as written. I would also have to disagree about the fugues, I believe Klemperer is actually a bit faster than most recordings of the era.


Of course, Klemperer had the Pitz-trained Philarmonia choir at the time which was one of the best choirs in the world. Of course whether he is faster than most recordings of the era is a moot point as most recordings were not made of it in that era. The comparison was with Karajan who was faster. Of course Klemperer was in fashion those days as the way of doing Beethoven. The main problem I find with his mass is the four soloists who all seem to be having a bad hair day together.
What Gardiner brought was a completely new aspect of performance with a crack choir. Whether you like it or not it is there


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Handelian said:


> Of course, Klemperer had the Pitz-trained Philarmonia choir at the time which was one of the best choirs in the world. Of course whether he is faster than most recordings of the era is a moot point as most recordings were not made of it in that era. The comparison was with Karajan who was faster. Of course Klemperer was in fashion those days as the way of doing Beethoven. The main problem I find with his mass is the four soloists who all seem to be having a bad hair day together.
> What Gardiner brought was a completely new aspect of performance with a crack choir. Whether you like it or not it is there


Look, we evidently prefer different recordings and that's okay.

As a point of factual correctness, Klemperer was a bit fast when it came out. It was faster than the 50s Karajan and Karajan's tempos remained approximately identical in his 70s remake. He was also faster than both Bohm and Jean Martinon (other recordings from around the same time). The only faster recordings I could find from around that time were Toscanini and other Klemperer recordings. Now, of course, average tempos in Beethoven have notched up so Klemperer is pretty middle of the road even edging on the slow side.

As a side note, I think the soloists do a fine job in the Klemperer although I think the best cast of soloists probably belongs to Karajan.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> Look, we evidently prefer different recordings and that's okay.
> 
> As a point of factual correctness, Klemperer was a bit fast when it came out. It was faster than the 50s Karajan and Karajan's tempos remained approximately identical in his 70s remake. He was also faster than both Bohm and Jean Martinon (other recordings from around the same time). The only faster recordings I could find from around that time were Toscanini and other Klemperer recordings. Now, of course, average tempos in Beethoven have notched up so Klemperer is pretty middle of the road even edging on the slow side.
> 
> As a side note, I think the soloists do a fine job in the Klemperer although I think the best cast of soloists probably belongs to Karajan.


I said in the fugues where Karajan is faster. I know some of Karajan's tempi are slow but not in the fugues. If you listen to Toscanini I was surprised at how slow his intro is. The soloists in the Klemperer are the big problem. They certainly are not in their best form. Karajan's 1960s performance is not perfect but it has a spiritual intensity that puts it above the rest. And the superb soloists. Guilin I has excellent soloists but for me tends to be too slow.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Is fur elise even rated highly? I would have though most people know it’s a little ditty as opposed to one of Ludvig’s masterpieces!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

^ Fur Elise is a bagatelle, which is supposed to be a lighter piece. For its type, it does its job. It's more popular than great.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> Is fur elise even rated highly? I would have though most people know it's a little ditty as opposed to one of Ludvig's masterpieces!


As Swafford says, Beethoven would probably not be pleased if he knew his little courting piece was one of his most popular.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Handelian said:


> As Swafford says, Beethoven would probably not be pleased if he knew his little courting piece was one of his most popular.


Or he might've said, "Then show me an equally clever piece from before it."


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> Or he might've said, "Then show me an equally clever piece from before it."


Or as he said once, "My sh** is better than the best they can do!"


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Handelian said:


> Or as he said once, "My sh** is better than the best they can do!"


I watched the movie Copying Beethoven and it gave me the feeling of how he was as a man and as a struggling composer. Of course they had a pretty girl in his life in the movie and that's all entertaining too.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> I watched the movie Copying Beethoven and it gave me the feeling of how he was as a man and as a struggling composer. Of course they had a pretty girl in his life in the movie and that's all entertaining too.


I think the cutest portrayal of Beethoven in film is this: 



Ever since I watched this scene, the "Ven!tu!ri! Ven!tu!ri!" in the missa solemnis have always sounded to me like "Bee!tho!ven! Bee!tho!ven!" I think this moment of the piece is quite ecstatic too.



Handelian said:


> Or as he said once, "My sh** is better than the best they can do!"


"Can't hear, can't drink, can't sh**, thank god poor Beethoven can compose!"


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think the cutest portrayal of Beethoven in film is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you imagine JsB or WaM behaving like that?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> By 1815 LvB was mostly deaf, he was no longer able to talk to people normally.
> He started his Solemn Mass in 1819.





Luchesi said:


> Can you imagine JsB or WaM behaving like that?


Bach only sounds grindy, Mozart only sounds witty (due to the "tyranny of good taste" and "obsolete idioms"), Beethoven was "handicapped" by his deafness - So Chopin "surpassed" them in expression? I've known you long enough on this forum to know how to interpret when you talk like that, lol.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Bach only sounds grindy, Mozart only sounds witty (due to the "tyranny of good taste" and "obsolete idioms"), Beethoven was "handicapped" by his deafness - So Chopin "surpassed" them in expression? I've known you long enough on this forum to know how to interpret when you talk like that, lol.


People would admire your informative posts more if you would avoid the word "you". Bach is grindy? Mozart only sounds witty? I said that?

I think the deaf LvB was unable to experience and hold on to long phrases of interconnected elements. He used music theory. This has advantages and disadvantages, but it surely made him a unique composer. His music doesn't look harsh on paper because of the music theory skeleton.

Yes, in expressiveness Chopin surpassed the guys of decades earlier with his innovations in form and harmony. At the time he sounded harsh but today we don't hear it like that. Today he has become the gateway for new CM enthusiasts, because he has the popular sound that new listeners already know from their familiar songs.


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## JakeWebster (Dec 26, 2020)

I'm not a big fan of his 6th symphony.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> Yes, in expressiveness Chopin surpassed the guys of decades earlier with his innovations in form and harmony. At the time he sounded harsh but today we don't hear it like that. Today he has become the gateway for new CM enthusiasts, because he has the popular sound that new listeners already know from their familiar songs.


I have no idea if Chopin is the gateway. Do you have any numbers to back up your claim?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I have no idea if Chopin is the gateway. Do you have any numbers to back up your claim?


Maybe it's just the younger age group who come in by way of Chopin and then Mozart and then Beethoven. Older people might seek out and might appreciate Beethoven more?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> I watched the movie Copying Beethoven and it gave me the feeling of how he was as a man and as a struggling composer. Of course they had a pretty girl in his life in the movie and that's all entertaining too.


I hope you didn't think there was anything remotely factual in that movie?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Handelian said:


> I hope you didn't think there was anything remotely factual in that movie?


No, just like Immortal Beloved those movies are for the feelings that we can experience, if we have sufficient background.

I did talk to a Beethoven scholar about Immortal Beloved back when it came out and she was livid!! Talk about feelings! she was over-the-top about that story! I thought it was an interesting story but I'm not afraid that people will believe it. Maybe she was..

I remember seeing it in the theater and I came home and played the 30th variation of the Diabellis over and over and over.


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