# Do you think you made the right career choice? (For non-professionals)



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I've heard there is no future in the Arts. I'm an Engineer by profession, it's a steady income. I can say I'm pretty well-off. But I find my job boring. Some people like problem solving, but for me it's easy to arrive at what is most feasible, and here is no real creativity, not like in the Arts. In my post-secondary school days (that's what they University or College here), I told someone who asked, that my dream would be to be a conductor, but that there was little chance it would happen, and didn't bother investing. I did find I enjoyed poetry a lot, and wrote some in my spare time.

Are you satisfied with your day job, or would you have done something differently with your love of music or other art form?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm a retired secondary school chemistry teacher. Got a nice pension. No debt. Can't complain. 

Yeah. To make it in music these days is very difficult-so competitive!

I played clarinet for a while, but my day job took up most of my time.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I am lucky that I have two passions in life, music and therapy. I consider myself a professional musician, in that I play out for humble pay and that keeps me happy. 

I have a friend I played in a band with in high school that is in a very popular American band now called "Walk the Moon". You probably have heard their hit single, "Shut up and Dance with Me". My friend is the guitarist for the band, and he went to school for Jazz studies; he sold out big time.

I wouldn't be happy doing my art anyway than my way, so I'm very satisfied.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I guess this thread can apply to pro's too. Do they feel well compensated for the effort they put in, etc.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

A positive way to look at it, is a lot of the greats from the past didn't make much money. If you are continuing to produce your art, while working a higher income job simultaneously, you are making more money than the greats, and still putting your art out there!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I am lucky that I have two passions in life, music and therapy. I consider myself a professional musician, in that I play out for humble pay and that keeps me happy.
> 
> I have a friend I played in a band with in high school that is in a very popular American band now called "Walk the Moon". You probably have heard their hit single, "Shut up and Dance with Me". My friend is the guitarist for the band, and he went to school for Jazz studies; he sold out big time.
> 
> I wouldn't be happy doing my art anyway than my way, so I'm very satisfied.


I wouldn't blame him though. Make music nobody will pay you for, or make trivial music and make loads of $$.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

A great quote I heard once went roughly like this: "Sometimes the job is the means of supporting the career"!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I wouldn't blame him though. Make music nobody will pay you for, or make trivial music and make loads of $$.


It would eat at me on the inside, and I would not be happy.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> A great quote I heard once went roughly like this: "Sometimes the job is the means of supporting the career"!


Huh? Which is the one that involves what you like? It sounds interchangeable


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Huh? Which is the one that involves what you like? It sounds interchangeable


lol! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> A great quote I heard once went roughly like this: "Sometimes the job is the means of supporting the career"!


I say, Shut up, and Dance with me!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I say, Shut up, and Dance with me!


You're quite the comedian there, Phil!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The short answer, yes.

The longer answer: When I was in college trying to play the saxophone/flute/clarinet/piano, I knew some monster players. They went on to a career in music. Playing next to them, I figured out I wasn't monster material, so I transferred my manual dexterity and symbol interpretation into court reporting school. I finished six months early and scored the highest on the incredibly difficult California licensing test, then jumped into a career in the courts and now freelance. The career is very stressful and deadline-driven, but after watching others try it and fail, it seems like I have more talent in this profession than any other. 

I still play saxophones in my church band, and they actually think I'm good. I'm still not a monster, but I enjoy playing and I like the sounds that come out of my horns. 

Of course, next week when I'm in a room full of mumblers talking about esoteric medical procedures who want the entire day's proceedings the next day, I'll probably give a different answer.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> The short answer, yes.
> 
> The longer answer: When I was in college trying to play the saxophone/flute/clarinet/piano, I knew some monster players. They went on to a career in music. Playing next to them, I figured out I wasn't monster material, so I transferred my manual dexterity and symbol interpretation into court reporting school. I finished six months early and scored the highest on the incredibly difficult California licensing test, then jumped into a career in the courts and now freelance. The career is very stressful and deadline-driven, but after watching others try it and fail, it seems like I have more talent in this profession than any other.
> 
> ...


Very enlightening. My bro in law feels people should go into what they like, not necessarily what they're good at. I wasn't sure if he was being naive, or I was being cynical.


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## Vox Gabrieli (Jan 9, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I'm a retired secondary school chemistry teacher. Got a nice pension. No debt. Can't complain.
> 
> Yeah. To make it in music these days is very difficult-so competitive!
> 
> I played clarinet for a while, but my day job took up most of my time.


No wonder you post so damn often.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

I probably would do things differently if I had to do them again. It's not that I dislike my career, but I've come across some other things that I might have enjoyed more if I had known about them at the time. One thing I absolutely would not want to do is become a professional musician even if I had elite musical talent. Hopefully this does not offend anyone who I wish not to offend, but it seems like a cesspool of shallow people. I have an older cousin who was an up-and-coming young violinist who got a taste of it before he decided to take a completely different path. Fortunately, I can say that the people I work with are generally honest people with good intentions and good work ethic.

It just seems to me that the happiest people are those who have jobs (even if they are boring ones) with lots of leave time and good pay. This allows them to pursue their passions as hobbies. You might say "duh" that well paying jobs with lots of time off are great jobs, but I see lots of young people who try to pursue some dead end career path that they think they are passionate about only to end up becoming disgruntled with that career path. Sometimes then they struggle to get back on track with a different career path.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Richard Macduff said:


> No wonder you post so damn often.


Being retired is definitely the best job to support a career posting on internet forums.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Very enlightening. My bro in law feels people should go into what they like, not necessarily what they're good at. I wasn't sure if he was being naive, or I was being cynical.


Not everyone can do this, but sometimes the best option is a little bit of both. Find a job that combines what you like to do with what you are good at. People who have good technology skills can take advantage of this if they don't enjoy pure IT work. People who are good at other things may struggle to come up with a combination, but a search of job listings can yield some interesting results.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Civil Engineer Eddie here 30 years on the job, which I like doing but our politians in Oz I think are the worst in the world- even our tax Dept is stuffed refer below..................
http://www.smh.com.au/national/ato-...e-charged-over-tax-fraud-20170517-gw7gf2.html

Net result is all our Engineering Gov departments have been sold off/ raped/ pillaged by corupt incompetent pollies building this we dont need and getting us ripped off in the process. So while a good job Ive seen too much bad stuff and a rapid decline in standards over the last 30 years............ Is it the same elsewhere I hope not.....


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Civil Engineer Eddie here 30 years on the job, which I like doing but our politians in Oz I think are the worst in the world- even our tax Dept is stuffed refer below..................
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/ato-...e-charged-over-tax-fraud-20170517-gw7gf2.html
> 
> Net result is all our Engineering Gov departments have been sold off/ raped/ pillaged by corupt incompetent pollies building this we dont need and getting us ripped off in the process. So while a good job Ive seen too much bad stuff and a rapid decline in standards over the last 30 years............ Is it the same elsewhere I hope not.....


Yeah, same here in Canada. I heard stories, and been through a project myself, with gov't projects getting cancelled, when millions of our tax $ have already been spent. Poor planning, and partially some kind of internal politics games.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> I probably would do things differently if I had to do them again. It's not that I dislike my career, but I've come across some other things that I might have enjoyed more if I had known about them at the time. One thing I absolutely would not want to do is become a professional musician even if I had elite musical talent. Hopefully this does not offend anyone who I wish not to offend, but it seems like a cesspool of shallow people. I have an older cousin who was an up-and-coming young violinist who got a taste of it before he decided to take a completely different path. Fortunately, I can say that the people I work with are generally honest people with good intentions and good work ethic.
> 
> It just seems to me that the happiest people are those who have jobs (even if they are boring ones) with lots of leave time and good pay. This allows them to pursue their passions as hobbies. You might say "duh" that well paying jobs with lots of time off are great jobs, but I see lots of young people who try to pursue some dead end career path that they think they are passionate about only to end up becoming disgruntled with that career path. Sometimes then they struggle to get back on track with a different career path.


Unfortunately I hear a lot of "follow your dreams" preached to young people.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Unfortunately I hear a lot of "follow your dreams" preached to young people.


It's good to give your dreams a fair shot. It's also good to be realistic and critical of yourself. It's also smart to know when it's time to move on.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

A friend of mine is a professional musician, both conducting small orchestras and playing the clarinet. Her main job is working with an organization which promotes classical music to elementary (primary) school children through concerts and classroom outreach. Here is something she had to say earlier this week...

_Some days you feel a need to remind yourself why you are grateful beyond words to do your job. Here's my list:
1. I consider my work in music to be outreach, every time I have a chance to perform.
2. I believe the arts are an antidote to conflict, hate, exclusion, fear, and cruelty.
3. Beyond teaching facts about composer's lives, or the names of the instruments in an orchestra, concerts can illuminate something about the human experience. Maybe when people learn that Beethoven was deaf when he created some of his most important pieces of music, it helps them think how they too can overcome life's challenges. When people learn that Vivaldi wrote over 500 works for his orchestra of orphaned girls, maybe people see that they too could be worthy of something beautiful. And when we share that music can be inspired by anything - even the death of a friend, maybe we can see that there can constructive ways to deal with life.
4. Because really the arts remind us to be resilient. To seek the better route, to question the lines, to create beauty where it has been lost, it reminds us that we are unique in the now but we as humans have been here before.
5. The arts teach us again and again and again and again how to live more open and understanding lives.

I am grateful today to have a small part in achieving these things through the arts._


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I'm a soon-to-be-retired secondary school English teacher who is now pretty sure he would have been a significant bit happier as a college English professor.

Outside of my career, the greatest joy I have ever known is playing music with other people. I wish I had continued to look for opportunities to do so after college.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

A) Engineers and artisits are probably the two most creative professions extent. I would be happy to be either,

B) No, I made many wrong choices, and would live my life again far differently.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Unfortunately I hear a lot of "follow your dreams" preached to young people.





Captainnumber36 said:


> It's good to give your dreams a fair shot. It's also good to be realistic and critical of yourself. It's also smart to know when it's time to move on.


Some of the most successful people are those who followed their dreams, but the list of failures is much, much longer! I would say the "Follow your dreams" mantra is absolutely foolish though unless someone is surrounded by insightful people and is willing to take their advice. They also have to possess some skill in determining who is insightful and who is a fraud. Also, like Captainnumber36 alludes to, they have to know when to "hold them or fold them."



Totenfeier said:


> I'm a soon-to-be-retired secondary school English teacher who is now pretty sure he would have been a significant bit happier as a college English professor.


Maybe the academia vs. K-12 education situation was different when you were coming out of college, but I certainly would not recommend that a young person try to become an English professor today versus becoming a K-12 English teacher. Here in Texas, a starting teacher can get ~$50k a year with yearly raises and summers off. That's not a bad salary for most places in Texas. Someone trying to get an academic position in English would likely have to endure years of teaching adjunct classes (~$3,000 per semester per class without benefits) before they _may_ get a full-time position. The full-time position may pay less than the K-12 job anyway. But, hey, qualified people are willing to work for that so why should the colleges pay any better?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Klassik said:


> Some of the most successful people are those who followed their dreams, but the list of failures is much, much longer! I would say the "Follow your dreams" mantra is absolutely foolish though unless someone is surrounded by insightful people and is willing to take their advice. They also have to possess some skill in determining who is insightful and who is a fraud. Also, like Captainnumber36 alludes to, they have to know when to "hold them or fold them."
> 
> Maybe the academia vs. K-12 education situation was different when you were coming out of college, but I certainly would not recommend that a young person try to become an English professor today versus becoming a K-12 English teacher. Here in Texas, a starting teacher can get ~$50k a year with yearly raises and summers off. That's not a bad salary for most places in Texas. Someone trying to get an academic position in English would likely have to endure years of teaching adjunct classes (~$3,000 per semester per class without benefits) before they _may_ get a full-time position. The full-time position may pay less than the K-12 job anyway. But, hey, qualified people are willing to work for that so why should the colleges pay any better?


'll also add to the knowing when to move on, is you have to re-evaluate things and what will support you and your loved ones financially, and how to keep your passions alive in your life in a way that satisfies you.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm very happy with my career choice. I'm a piano teacher, with a secondary career as a piano accompanist. I've been doing these jobs for over 20 years; I started at the ridiculously young age of 14! At that point, most of my students were tiny little kids - I would have felt weird teaching adults. :lol: Since then, I've gotten music degrees, expanded my studio to include many advanced students, and (hopefully) improved my teaching significantly from my humble beginnings!


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Klassik said:


> Some of the most successful people are those who followed their dreams, but the list of failures is much, much longer! I would say the "Follow your dreams" mantra is absolutely foolish though unless someone is surrounded by insightful people and is willing to take their advice. They also have to possess some skill in determining who is insightful and who is a fraud. Also, like Captainnumber36 alludes to, they have to know when to "hold them or fold them."
> 
> Maybe the academia vs. K-12 education situation was different when you were coming out of college, but I certainly would not recommend that a young person try to become an English professor today versus becoming a K-12 English teacher. Here in Texas, a starting teacher can get ~$50k a year with yearly raises and summers off. That's not a bad salary for most places in Texas. Someone trying to get an academic position in English would likely have to endure years of teaching adjunct classes (~$3,000 per semester per class without benefits) before they _may_ get a full-time position. The full-time position may pay less than the K-12 job anyway. But, hey, qualified people are willing to work for that so why should the colleges pay any better?


Well, here in the good "Old North State," the home of the infamous HB2, 50K is just around what I make at the TOP of the pay scale after 31 years. AND our rabid, rarin' Republican General Assembly voted a couple years back to eliminate tenure (which the State Supreme Court subsequently ruled was unconstitutional) and continuing contracts for teachers. As far as our legislature is concerned, folks such as myself are actually nothing but a bunch of liberal leeches sucking on the public tit, and the more easily we can be scraped off, the better life will be (in addition to freeing up money for private and/or religious and/or charter schools).

You know, I was once a believer in the principle of "an educated and informed citizenry in a free democratic republic," but since we have NONE of those things anymore, why even bother?

(Sorry. I got myself started, there.)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am sure that, had I finished my science PhD, I would have been just as happy as a college professor/researcher as I have been in a very different field (computer science). However, after finishing my qualifying exams, I spent a lot of time considering what it would take to get and stay there, not least being the issue of getting research grants, and decided to take the opportunity to work in the university medical center's computer research group. The funny part about it all is that while I was still working in the university, instead of teaching in my academic field, I found myself teaching computer science & programming!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

To me, "follow your dreams" is not just good advice, it is the only advice. It's what I have been doing for decades now. It dumped me into near poverty. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that I would have it no other way. 

It is advice that must be accompanied though by the warning that following your dreams is financially a risky proposal. You cannot follow your dreams and at the same time expect the whole thing to be risk free. 

Another issue is that dreams can change. My early dream was to be a biologist, so I studied zoology. By the time I completed my B degree I realized that as interesting as the subject is, I don't really want to be a professional researcher. In the local job market, a B degree in biology is worse on your CV than a criminal record, so I never found a very good job in that line of work. 

But I also wanted to be an artist, so over many decades I worked on that on a part time basis. Not that I have much talent for it, mind you. But what can I say? You want what you want. 

Anyway, I am now finally in the position where I make most of my living out of art, albeit not in the way I may have wanted: I give drawing lessons to kids and seldom sell any paintings. I also do a bit of tutoring in math and science on the side. And I'm dirt poor, as I noted before. And, it sometimes seems to me, happier than anyone I know.

Leaving the rat race was the correct choice for me, I think. But then, I don't have any dependents and that makes a big difference - if you want kids, you give up the luxury of a career choice and do what you have to do.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Totenfeier said:


> You know, I was once a believer in the principle of "an educated and informed citizenry in a free democratic republic," but since we have NONE of those things anymore, why even bother?
> 
> (Sorry. I got myself started, there.)


The problem is that an 'educated and informed citizenry' knows how to think for themselves and will not follow ... (best to not go any further!)


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Becca said:


> The problem is that an 'educated and informed citizenry' knows how to think for themselves and will not follow ... (best to not go any further!)


All over the western world we have been willing to sell our souls for the sake of having security. Then we sit and wonder why we have no souls. As it turns out, the security was largely illusory too.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Becca said:


> The problem is that an 'educated and informed citizenry' knows how to think for themselves and will not follow ... (best to not go any further!)


"Panem et reality show circenses, baby!"


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

brianvds said:


> To me, "follow your dreams" is not just good advice, it is the only advice. It's what I have been doing for decades now. It dumped me into near poverty. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that I would have it no other way.
> 
> It is advice that must be accompanied though by the warning that following your dreams is financially a risky proposal. You cannot follow your dreams and at the same time expect the whole thing to be risk free.
> 
> ...


Good for you. I'm glad that philosophy worked for you. Maybe there just aren't any hard and fast rules. Or there is a huge luck factor between success and failure.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Good for you. I'm glad that philosophy worked for you. Maybe there just aren't any hard and fast rules. Or there is a huge luck factor between success and failure.


The underlying principal is to sit down, talk a lot to bounce ideas off with others (such as you are doing here) and really find a solution that works for you.

For me, it's not the fame I'm really after with my music, it's making money (no matter how little) off my original music to a crowd that appreciates it. That is what constitutes professional in my eyes!

I have found performing at nursing homes to be a great fit for my music, small coffee shops works too. Whenever I get a chance to perform, I take it.

I think I may actually prefer to be my own boss of my art rather than being part of a label, it works better for me.

Might I also add, it took me a long time to find the guts to give up on being in a band, while I always enjoyed playing solo, I didn't think people would be as interested in it as being in a band. It's been quite the contrary, I have had much more success playing solo than any band I've been in, and it is ever so rewarding!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Thanks for the advice Cap'n. I'm going to hand in my resignation next week and start my own band playing 60's music.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Totenfeier said:


> Well, here in the good "Old North State," the home of the infamous HB2, 50K is just around what I make at the TOP of the pay scale after 31 years. AND our rabid, rarin' Republican General Assembly voted a couple years back to eliminate tenure (which the State Supreme Court subsequently ruled was unconstitutional) and continuing contracts for teachers. As far as our legislature is concerned, folks such as myself are actually nothing but a bunch of liberal leeches sucking on the public tit, and the more easily we can be scraped off, the better life will be (in addition to freeing up money for private and/or religious and/or charter schools).
> 
> You know, I was once a believer in the principle of "an educated and informed citizenry in a free democratic republic," but since we have NONE of those things anymore, why even bother?
> 
> (Sorry. I got myself started, there.)


I feel your pain. It's not like Texas has the brightest leadership either!  But, anyway, the situation in higher education is not very good at the moment. A two-year college English full-time instructor with a Ph.D. here will likely start out making slightly less than a new K-12 teacher with a bachelor's degree. It'll be a 9-month contract, but new instructors will be forced to teach summer classes at near adjunct pay rates. Oh, and tenure is being removed for full-time instructors as well. The funny thing is that a two-year college English instructor will likely have to teach some dual credit classes here in Texas. These people will be teaching high schoolers even though the regular high school teachers with lesser qualifications make more! Anyway, the four year colleges don't pay much better than the two year colleges. The "publish or perish" mentality will exist there though even at colleges that have no business pretending to be research colleges.



Becca said:


> The problem is that an 'educated and informed citizenry' knows how to think for themselves and will not follow ... (best to not go any further!)


Our greatest colleges have some wonderful faculty. Ones like Rice, Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, and so forth actually have their faculty teaching undergraduate classes with small roster sizes. Many, if not most, faculty at these schools take undergraduate teaching somewhat seriously even if they'd rather be doing research. Even with this, look at how foolish and/or destructive many of their graduates end up being when they leave the college. Forget about the average and mediocre people, even educating the best and brightest with all the institutional resources in the world is an uphill battle.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Thanks for the advice Cap'n. I'm going to hand in my resignation next week and start my own band playing 60's music.


In all reality, cover bands are where it's at if you want to make a lot of money playing live music.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Thanks for the advice Cap'n. I'm going to hand in my resignation next week and start my own band playing 60's music.





Captainnumber36 said:


> In all reality, cover bands are where it's at if you want to make a lot of money playing live music.


Have you ever seen an unhappy Elvis impersonator? I think we're all missing out on the best opportunity!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Many years ago a tall blonde woman walked into the Motown offices and insisted on having an audition as she really loved singing that type of music. She sat there for quite some time before anyone took her seriously, but finally someone did. She never got a top 10 recording but some of her records are still being re-released. After a while she moved into other parts of the business, got herself an Oscar nomination and ended up as a Motown VP. Dreams and persistence can work.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Becca said:


> Many years ago a tall blonde woman walked into the Motown offices and insisted on having an audition as she really loved singing that type of music. She sat there for quite some time before anyone took her seriously, but finally someone did. She never got a top 10 recording but some of her records are still being re-released. After a while she moved into other parts of the business, got herself an Oscar nomination and ended up as a Motown VP. Dreams and persistence can work.


Sounds like Renee Geyer


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Chris Clark ... Her Oscar nomination was for the screenplay to _Lady Sings the Blues_


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Are you satisfied with your day job, or would you have done something differently with your love of music or other art form?


 I've tried piano and my teachers said.... keep doing studying law you never will be the next Van Cliburn.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

There is a future in the arts.Today that make to much crap,lacking in quality .To be honest i am glad that i did not attend college because of the student loan debts & costs so much for college.It is to me a gamble after you complete it.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

That's a very difficult question. I'm a professional programmer but there's a lot of research involved in what I do. I go to conferences and also do something I consider basic research in our field. I'm a very creative person, and while there's a lot of room for creativity here, most of the time I find it not appreciated. It's all about means to an end. Faster, better, more efficient. Sometimes I feel what I do is in direct conflict with my basic values.

But it is also clear that the career is a good match for my skills and character. I seem to excel in doing this stuff.

So in short: I have no idea


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm the most artistic of all the people in my circle, so I wondered what was out there. It's sounding like the grass is always greener elsewhere.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm a legal counsel/company lawyer and I can't complain. But in the end it will never be my passion. No office job will ever be. It's simply a "necessary evil". I'm pretty sure I've made the right choices from an economic perspective. Of course I would've liked to make a living from something related to music, but it just wasn't realistic.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I've already let one career collapse because I thought I'd made the wrong choice. Sometimes I wouldn't mind going back to that now I know better. If I'd had my head screwed on I would have realised that having a steady income that isn't exhausted before the end of the month means you can pursue your other passions in your free time.

The grass is always greener though... the jobs I had paid better, but the surrounding ethos was inauthentic and even corrupt at times. Decent people can't work in a job like that without suppressing an important part of themselves. You end justifying yourself to yourself all the time.

Most people who have been around the block know that even hard work and talent isn't enough sometimes. I know dozens of great musicians who don't make a proper living from music after having devoted their lives to it. Everyone sees the ones at the top and assumes they represent the cream and that the ones not there must be somehow not as talented or hard-working. That's naive.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I've already let one career collapse because I thought I'd made the wrong choice. Sometimes I wouldn't mind going back to that now I know better. If I'd had my head screwed on I would have realised that having a steady income that isn't exhausted before the end of the month means you can pursue your other passions in your free time.
> 
> The grass is always greener though... the jobs I had paid better, but the surrounding ethos was inauthentic and even corrupt at times. Decent people can't work in a job like that without suppressing an important part of themselves. You end justifying yourself to yourself all the time.
> 
> Most people who have been around the block know that even hard work and talent isn't enough sometimes. I know dozens of great musicians who don't make a proper living from music after having devoted their lives to it. Everyone sees the ones at the top and assumes they represent the cream and that the ones not there must be somehow not as talented or hard-working. That's naive.


I would give you 3 likes for that post if I could.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

... the situation in higher education is not very good at the moment. A two-year college English full-time instructor with a Ph.D. here will likely start out making slightly less than a new K-12 teacher with a bachelor's degree. It'll be a 9-month contract, but new instructors will be forced to teach summer classes at near adjunct pay rates. Oh, and tenure is being removed for full-time instructors as well.

The situation with higher education is the result of our obsession with the idea that everything should run like a business. As a result, college presidents tend to be MBAs with little or no education background hell-bent on turning a profit... not education. My own alma-mater now has 3 or 4 times as many administrators as it had when I graduated... not all that long ago. I hear similar stories from a number of college friends who went on and got their Masters in Art with the idea of teaching at the university level. Most now make a good deal less than I do teaching at the K-12 level. There is also a pressure to conform to what is the admired art of the time. I'm free to create as a want, because really, they don't care about my artistic ability or what I do in my free time.

The funny thing is that a two-year college English instructor will likely have to teach some dual credit classes here in Texas. These people will be teaching high schoolers even though the regular high school teachers with lesser qualifications make more!

How is a PhD. "more qualified" to teach children than a K-12 teacher? Someone with a Masters or even a PhD. in Art may know more about Art History, Art Theory, etc... than I do (although I actually doubt this)... but how "qualified" and how experienced are they with actually teaching children? There is a huge difference between knowing a lot about a subject and being able to teach it to a class of 18, 24, 33... maybe even 48 antsy children who aren't really interested in what you have to say... to say nothing of children with learning disabilities, behavioral disabilities, communicating with hostile parents, etc... Of course the same slash and burn mentality is being applied to the public schools. Of course you can always work in the private and religious schools... but you'd probably be better off with a manager's post at McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

Honestly, teaching at the K-12 level was a good gig when I started... but with continual government intervention, its only gotten progressively more stressful and demanding. The pay still isn't bad... and there are moments when a child suddenly "gets it" that make it all worth while. And in 4 days I'll be off for the summer and able to focus on my own artistic endeavors.

I have read up on any number of artists, writers, musicians. I recognize that a good majority of artists in every field have to work at a day job that they may not love in order to keep making the sort of art that they do belive in. For this reason, most of the artists I know have an ncredible work ethic and drive and can work the average person under the table.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The situation with higher education is the result of our obsession with the idea that everything should run like a business. As a result, college presidents tend to be MBAs with little or no education background hell-bent on turning a profit... not education. My own alma-mater now has 3 or 4 times as many administrators as it had when I graduated... not all that long ago. I hear similar stories from a number of college friends who went on and got their Masters in Art with the idea of teaching at the university level. Most now make a good deal less than I do teaching at the K-12 level. There is also a pressure to conform to what is the admired art of the time. I'm free to create as a want, because really, they don't care about my artistic ability or what I do in my free time.


Administrative bloat is an issue. Sometimes the problems with universities and colleges (it's more of a 4-year college issue than a 2-year college issue) is that they don't understand their mission. Too many universities are trying to become top research universities when they have no shot at ever being the next Harvard or MIT (we won't even get into the whole thing about colleges as professional athletic leagues). This comes at a cost - usually undergraduate education. They're too busy trying to chase prestige instead of focusing on education. The reality is that universities are asked to do a lot sometimes, some of which is in conflict with other missions especially given limited resources, and the students are the ones who get the worst of it since they'll still show up with money in hand regardless of the quality. The students may even view the lack of rigorous educational standards to be a good thing. Why bother getting "edumacated" when they can put forth minimal academic effort and graduate with a 3.0 GPA or higher from colleges with a decent or better reputation?



> How is a PhD. "more qualified" to teach children than a K-12 teacher? Someone with a Masters or even a PhD. in Art may know more about Art History, Art Theory, etc... than I do (although I actually doubt this)... but how "qualified" and how experienced are they with actually teaching children? There is a huge difference between knowing a lot about a subject and being able to teach it to a class of 18, 24, 33... maybe even 48 antsy children who aren't really interested in what you have to say... to say nothing of children with learning disabilities, behavioral disabilities, communicating with hostile parents, etc... Of course the same slash and burn mentality is being applied to the public schools. Of course you can always work in the private and religious schools... but you'd probably be better off with a manager's post at McDonald's or Wal-Mart.


No argument there. The Ph.D. is a research degree only relevant for training for university research positions. A student can, and usually does, go through an entire Ph.D. program and not be given any mentorship on how to teach even though they will have to do some of that if they land an academic job (in fact, they probably will teach some as a graduate student, but they're usually just thrown to the wolves there).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I've made two career choices in my life, and am satisfied with both.

After I got my PhD in chemical technology (1984), I aimed to work for one of the largest multinational oil companies of the world, and was hired. I had nine different jobs in three countries for this company, starting as researcher, and spending the last 10+ years in management positions (research and development departments and director of a chemicals factory). It supplied us with a steady high income for challenging work (if at times rather stressful).

This company gives their employees the choice to retire anywhere between age 55 and 65 - although obviously with a lower retirement package for the earlier retirement age choices. After long discussions with my wife and some close colleagues, I decided to retire at 55, and fulfill my wife's dream of starting our own art gallery (she is a professional artist). That was 5 years ago, and I've not regretted it for a single moment. We open the gallery on Friday and Saturday afternoons - leaving us plenty of time to pursue other interests, such as in my case music and photography.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I was a real estate appraiser and manager; it well suited my strengths and preferences. Now I'm retired, and it's even more fun than appraising.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

As a child I wanted to be an artist....I drew all the time and casually felt like one day I would be an artist. Then as an 11 year old, I was convinced to pick up the trumpet and play in the school band. I fell in love with the instrument and from then on I wanted to be a professional trumpeter. I studied trumpet in college and my professors felt like I had talent and a great sound, but I came to realize that the physical nature of my lips left me with relatively poor endurance on the instrument and limited my ability to compete for a job as an orchestral trumpeter. I struggled with it for years. 

Finally I decided that there was no way I could make a career as a trumpeter work.. I then looked into teaching and conducting. To make a long story less long...I found that my introverted nature didn't fit well with the executive/extrovert/dynamism required of a good conductor or school teacher.

So....fast forward and now I'm a registered nurse. I like it quite a lot. But, I sometimes realize if I had it all to do over again I would probably have followed my original child-like love of art. It would have worked with my introverted side but still have let me be creative.

It's always easy to look back. But now I choose to look forward - to teach trumpet on the side, to purchase art, to create art as an amateur, to listen to music, and to support music and the arts as much as I can.

Thanks to the OP for the thread. Always therapeutic and good to talk through this stuff.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

StlukesguildOhio, Klassik - your points are well taken. I didn't mean to hijack the thread into a discussion of the problems with education in America, but there are plenty - and yes, the almighty "best practices business model" is a significant factor in them (I love what Scott Adams said - "If everybody adopts 'best practices' - don't they automatically become _average_ practices?")


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Totenfeier said:


> StlukesguildOhio, Klassik - your points are well taken. I didn't mean to hijack the thread into a discussion of the problems with education in America, but there are plenty - and yes, the almighty "best practices business model" is a significant factor in them (I love what Scott Adams said - "If everybody adopts 'best practices' - don't they automatically become _average_ practices?")


I think you will find there are problems with education everywhere


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I think you will find there are problems with education everywhere


Oh, indeed - in particular, striking the right balance between the "humanities" and the "technologies" - between the arts and sciences. Yes, we need scientists, engineers and "problem-solvers" for our physical needs - but who anymore is providing adequate support for our spiritual and aesthetic needs? Where is the urgency, not just about crumbling infrastructure and energy supply needs, but also about disintegrated souls and the desperate need for truth and beauty?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Totenfeier said:


> Oh, indeed - in particular, striking the right balance between the "humanities" and the "technologies" - between the arts and sciences. Yes, we need scientists, engineers and "problem-solvers" for our physical needs - but who anymore is providing adequate support for our spiritual and aesthetic needs?


You're on your own; it's a lonely world. By the way, my brother lives in New Bern.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Totenfeier said:


> Oh, indeed - in particular, striking the right balance between the "humanities" and the "technologies" - between the arts and sciences. Yes, we need scientists, engineers and "problem-solvers" for our physical needs - but who anymore is providing adequate support for our spiritual and aesthetic needs? Where is the urgency, not just about crumbling infrastructure and energy supply needs, but also about disintegrated souls and the desperate need for truth and beauty?


Here in Oz its a fight between privately funded schools and "public schools" all funded to some degree by the Government.

The university sector is on the skids totally reliant on income from foreign students.................


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> You're on your own; it's a lonely world. By the way, my brother lives in New Bern.


Well! If he's ever up my way, or I'm down his, I'll be sure to say hey!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Totenfeier said:


> StlukesguildOhio, Klassik - your points are well taken. I didn't mean to hijack the thread into a discussion of the problems with education in America, but there are plenty - and yes, the almighty "best practices business model" is a significant factor in them (I love what Scott Adams said - "If everybody adopts 'best practices' - don't they automatically become _average_ practices?")


If you think public education in America is bad, you should see South Africa... 

Always a silver lining, mind you: as I mentioned before, I tutor various subjects to keep the pots cooking. In effect, I run my own small business, and there would not have been much for me to do if our education system was functional. But here, people send their kids to school for ten years, after which they are practically innumerate, and then they send them to me to see if I can salvage whatever remains of their school-addled brains.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Dreams of pianistic virtuosity has occured on occasion but its best its merely a fantasy. The amount of stress, endless practice sessions just to attain concert status is staggering, and then the true labour begins. 

The choice between long rehearsals knowing a few consecutive poor performances is all it takes for people to loose interest vs calmly riding the bicycle to the quiet little cafe by the woods where i work is straightforward :lol: I love music, my miracle of life but is it worth sacrificing summer evenings in the hammock? I think not.


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## Armanvd (Jan 17, 2017)

My Dream Job Is Being The Conductor of An Orchestra Too But I Will Never Become One  Long Story Short I'm a Undergraduate of IT at University Of Tehran.
I Can't Say That I Hate It But If I Make A List Of The Things That I Like As A Profession, It Would Be In The 10th Place.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As noted in an earlier post, I spent my entire career in what is now called IT, but wasn't back then. Actually back then there weren't many computer/software related academic programs, people just kinda slid into it having done something quite different, as did I. It has been intriguing to watch the evolution of the field since then but would I do it again ... I really don't know.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I didn't make a career choice, I just ended up doing what I do through a series of accidents and coincidences. I can't complain though, I'd probably do it the same way if I had the chance again. Actually, if I had the chance again, maybe I would have practised piano harder when I was young. Or then again, maybe not, I never really had the talent to do it professionally, as much as I would have liked to. :lol:


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## Guest (May 22, 2017)

I'm a retired high school English teacher. While I wish I had taught music history and/or guitar, I have no regrets about my career. Helping students to read with a deeper understanding and write more clearly was extremely satisfying. I did manage to work in some classical music, though. For instance, when we read Shakespeare, we listened to some John Dowland lute works, and while reading _Crime and Punishment_, I played some Tchaikovsky. So, while teaching music in a high school conservatory or performing arts school would have been a dream job, knowing that I helped prepare young people for the future (and I hope, be more productive, informed citizens) was and is very rewarding.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I taught my kids that when it came to education and career decisions, emphasize what you are good at. If you end up financially secure, you will have opportunities to follow some, if not all, of your dreams. I understand that occasionally, those who follow their dreams are successful and happy that they did, but as others have said or inferred, it is a gamble that often doesn't pay off and can result in a life of struggle, financially and otherwise.

One thing about following one's dreams is that you have to be wise and realistic about your skills: Remember the American Idol preliminaries that always had totally tone-deaf singers who thought they would be sure winners.  As well, you need to be realistic about making it in your chosen dream vocation. 

I have two nieces from different families, each of which wanted to be pop singers. One went on to get her teaching credential and now has a tenured job with benefits. On the side, she now has a band that has done some recording and makes some money from small gigs. The other niece quit college after a year and is now in her mid twenties still trying to make an income from singing, but essentially continues to live off her father.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

DaveM said:


> I taught my kids that when it came to education and career decisions, emphasize what you are good at. If you end up financially secure, you will have opportunities to follow some, if not all, of your dreams. I understand that occasionally, those who follow their dreams are successful and happy that they did, but as others have said or inferred, it is a gamble that often doesn't pay off and can result in a life of struggle, financially and otherwise.
> 
> One thing about following one's dreams is that you have to be wise and realistic about your skills: Remember the American Idol preliminaries that always had totally tone-deaf singers who thought they would be sure winners.  As well, you need to be realistic about making it in your chosen dream vocation. I have two nieces from different families, each of which wanted to be pop singers.
> 
> One went on to get her teaching credential and now has a tenured job with benefits. On the side, she now has a band that has done some recording and makes some money from small gigs. The other niece quit college after a year and is now in her mid twenties still trying to make an income from singing, but is essentially continues to live off her father.


Good post. Sometimes dream opportunities end up becoming nightmares even if they come true. It's always relative, but I was given a chance to do some unpaid writing about a subject I loved at the time in my early 20s. I made some contacts through that so perhaps I could have parlayed that experience into something that paid. I'm so glad that I decided not to pursue that route as I totally lost interest in it and became a bit disgruntled at the thing that I had loved throughout my childhood and college years. I would have been really stuck if I had pursued that opportunity instead of something more general. I might have been stuck pretending to love something that I clearly didn't anymore.

As for your niece who became a teacher, the story kind of reminds me of my brother. He, like myself, was always interested in cars growing up. He certainly could have gotten some sort of nice automotive job as a career, but instead he decided to get a nice IT job with a Fortune 500 company even though it's probably less interesting. He started a website reviewing and photographing new cars in his free time. The site garners a lot of visitors and manufacturers send him new cars to review for the site (cars dropped off in his driveway include a Lamborghini, several Corvettes, BMWs, Audis, and Vipers among several other much more regular cars). He even gets paid to photograph car launches at various international car shows.

His company gives him lots of leave time so he's able to do all of this in addition to receiving a very nice and stable paycheck. The great thing about the hobby is that he can do it as much or as little as he wants since it's not a job. He got married a couple years back and has scaled back the car reviewing, but he still does it every now and then.



Becca said:


> As noted in an earlier post, I spent my entire career in what is now called IT, but wasn't back then. Actually back then there weren't many computer/software related academic programs, people just kinda slid into it having done something quite different, as did I. It has been intriguing to watch the evolution of the field since then but would I do it again ... I really don't know.


I was too young to work in what would become IT at the time, but I really enjoyed tinkering around with XT, 286, 386, and 486 PCs back in the day. It was a real adventure. There was no Google back then to help you with things so you had to figure out how to get your hardware and software configured correctly on your own. It was frustrating at times, but very rewarding when I would figure something out on my own. I learned a lot through that. I suppose I wouldn't want to go back to the old days now that everyone has a powerful computer in their pockets, but I still look back at that era as the glory days. You were really on top of the world if you understood even basic computing back in the era where people couldn't figure out how to program a VCR. Maybe it's because I was young then. I don't know. I still have interest in "IT," but it's not what it used to be.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Klassik said:


> I was too young to work in what would become IT at the time, but I really enjoyed tinkering around with XT, 286, 386, and 486 PCs back in the day.


Ohh, one of the young-uns ... let's just say I remember the world before the 8080 came out  I can tell you about disk drives the size of big washing machine which held all of 29MB !!


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Becca said:


> Ohh, one of the young-uns ... let's just say I remember the world before the 8080 came out  I can tell you about disk drives the size of big washing machine which held all of 29MB !!


My father had a "portable" 1970s scientific calculator that was about the size and weight of a washing machine. Does that count? :lol:

Yeah, my 8088 XT had a whopping 20mb full-height hard drive. I was one of the fortunate ones. That was huge capacity for the time. It beat loading software off a 360kb floppy diskette (5.25", never used an 8" disk) and it certainly beat loading software off a cassette on the Commodore 64. I did have a little mini piano keyboard which snapped onto the C64's keyboard though for playing very rudimentary computer music. My best musical compositions were written on that thing!


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Klassik said:


> My father had a "portable" 1970s scientific calculator that was about the size and weight of a washing machine. Does that count? :lol:
> 
> Yeah, my 8088 XT had a whopping 20mb full-height hard drive. I was one of the fortunate ones. That was huge capacity for the time. It beat loading software off a 360kb floppy diskette (5.25", never used an 8" disk) and it certainly beat loading software off a cassette on the Commodore 64. I did have a little mini piano keyboard which snapped onto the C64's keyboard though for playing very rudimentary computer music. My best musical compositions were written on that thing!


Calculators? I was taught to use a slide-rule, and still can!
As to career choices, it was either scientific research, from which I recently retired, or pianist, for which I was never anything like good enough.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Calculators? I was taught to use a slide-rule, and still can!
> As to career choices, it was either scientific research, from which I recently retired, or pianist, for which I was never anything like good enough.


Ihad to learn programming on punch cards at university- just think how many cards you would need to load up world of warcraft....................


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