# Singing voice "lacking the tip"



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Moving this here from another thread:

I once attended a lecture on Norma. The teacher showed us Angela Meade singing "Bello a me ritorna" and complained, that you cannot hear the individual notes in the coloratura as written in the score. He hears them as incorrectly smeared together. Then he showed us Joan Sutherland on the same aria as somebody who does it right. He would tell Angela Meade to go and sing Tosca instead. We did not perceive it as very unpleasant, though. The teacher called it "lacking the tip", in Slovak. Is it also the English terminology ? Or how do you call it ?


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> Moving this here from another thread:
> 
> I once attended a lecture on Norma. The teacher showed us Angela Meade singing "Bello a me ritorna" and complained, that you cannot hear the individual notes in the coloratura as written in the score. He hears them as incorrectly smeared together. Then he showed us Joan Sutherland on the same aria as somebody who does it right. He would tell Angela Meade to go and sing Tosca instead. We did not perceive it as very unpleasant, though. The teacher called it "lacking the tip", in Slovak. Is it also the English terminology ? Or how do you call it ?


The English equivalent for "lacking the tip" would be "circumcised"...


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> The English equivalent for "lacking the tip" would be "circumcised"...


OK, I will use it in my next musicological paper


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Let me be serious now.

1. Circumcision is not about the tip.

2. What do you call the thing I described ? A smeared coloratura ? Or something else ?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> Let me be serious now.
> 
> 1. Circumcision is not about the tip.
> 
> 2. What do you call the thing I described ? A smeared coloratura ? Or something else ?


Smeared will do.

The tip of what?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

These days we tend to hear either a lot of slithering around the notes (smearing) or a surfeit of intrusive aitches. All sorts of singers seem to attempt the _bel canto _repertoire, but few of them have the technique. It should be possible to cleanly articulate fast moving music and fioriture with legato but without an intrusive aitch.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> These days we tend to hear either a lot of slithering around the notes (smearing) or a surfeit of intrusive aitches. All sorts of singers seem to attempt the _bel canto _repertoire, but few of them have the technique. It should be possible to cleanly articulate fast moving music and fioriture with legato but without an intrusive aitch.


Perhaps it means articulation. Articulating each note in the sequence like they are connected points on a line.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

BBSVK said:


> Moving this here from another thread:
> 
> I once attended a lecture on Norma. The teacher showed us Angela Meade singing "Bello a me ritorna" and complained, that you cannot hear the individual notes in the coloratura as written in the score. He hears them as incorrectly smeared together. Then he showed us Joan Sutherland on the same aria as somebody who does it right. He would tell Angela Meade to go and sing Tosca instead. We did not perceive it as very unpleasant, though. The teacher called it "lacking the tip", in Slovak. Is it also the English terminology ? Or how do you call it ?


I do run into this "_smearing_" or "_sirening_" of cadenza note runs from my diva sopranos occasionally. I usually refer to it simply as *"lack of pitch definition"*, followed by a demonstration of the note run without definition, then with definition (in a lower octave of course).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I heard Meade doing Spirits of the Air from Esclarmonde on TV. I was just pleased someone today could more or less do it. Sutherland was a freak. She is one of the few huge voices that can sing comfortably above high C and I LOVE high notes. Call me declassee. I saw Meade as Sieglinde here and it is a plush beautiful voice. Her coloratura is okay ( for today LOL) but isn't exact. She isn't Sutherland, Callas or Gruberova, but is as good as Dimitrova who was a very good Norma even if she wasn't Callas. It is nice to hear a Verdi size voice do roles like Norma and Semiramide today. My main issue with her coloratura is she doesn't have a distinct trill.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I heard Meade doing Spirits of the Air from Esclarmonde on TV. I was just pleased someone today could more or less do it. Sutherland was a freak. She is one of the few huge voices that can sing comfortably above high C and I LOVE high notes. Call me declassee. I saw Meade as Sieglinde here and it is a plush beautiful voice. Her coloratura is okay ( for today LOL) but isn't exact. She isn't Sutherland, Callas or Gruberova, but is as good as Dimitrova who was a very good Norma even if she wasn't Callas. It is nice to hear a Verdi size voice do roles like Norma and Semiramide today. My main issue with her coloratura is she doesn't have a distinct trill.


When I first heard her she kind of reminded me of a Caterina Mancini type of voice with a freer and higher upper extension. Definitely an Italian dramatic dagilita though her coloratura is not as brilliant as that of Sutherland or as dramatically engaged as Callas.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> My main issue with her coloratura is she doesn't have a distinct trill.


Oh, well... I feel like starting another thread, about what the "distinct trill" is. It is difficult to be a molecular biologist on an opera forum...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Oh, well... I feel like starting another thread, about what the "distinct trill" is. It is difficult to be a molecular biologist on an opera forum...


Do NOT feel bad about asking a question!!!! We all love to share our knowledge and that is how I have learned over the years on this forum. I STILL have trouble distinguishing a portamento which everyone else seems to hear like a siren whenever they occur LOL. I have lots of introductory talks on Youtube about opera I did for my Toastmaster club who are ignorant of opera but they enjoyed. 
Meade's voice has a fast vibrato and when she attempts to trill most of the time you can't tell the difference between it and her regular tone. Every once in a while she pulls it off. Sills could do spectacular trills but only on certain notes. Caballe does a poor imitation of a trill for the most part but very rarely does she pull one off. Sutherland, Callas, Tetrazinni, Ponselle, Farrell had the best trills in my opinion. Sutherland could do whole tone and half tone trills anywhere in her range and I'd be very surprised if Callas couldn't do the same. T-london or Mas would know. There were even times when Sutherland, Sills and Galli Curci ( I believe it was her) could trill over what sounded like a third instead of just adjacent notes. Ponselle in the Blue Danube Waltz does a Wagnerian trill that almost drowned out the orchestra. It was jawdropping. Sutherland, Pavarotti and Horne do a great intro to Bel Canto video where they discuss trills.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oka12FxmRBg&t=376s


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Do NOT feel bad about asking a question!!!! We all love to share our knowledge and that is how I have learned over the years on this forum. I STILL have trouble distinguishing a portamento which everyone else seems to hear like a siren whenever they occur LOL. I have lots of introductory talks on Youtube about opera I did for my Toastmaster club who are ignorant of opera but they enjoyed.
> Meade's voice has a fast vibrato and when she attempts to trill most of the time you can't tell the difference between it and her regular tone. Every once in a while she pulls it off. Sills could do spectacular trills but only on certain notes. Caballe does a poor imitation of a trill for the most part but very rarely does she pull one off. Sutherland, Callas, Tetrazinni, Ponselle, Farrell had the best trills in my opinion. Sutherland could do whole tone and half tone trills anywhere in her range and I'd be very surprised if Callas couldn't do the same. T-london or Mas would know. There were even times when Sutherland, Sills and Galli Curci ( I believe it was her) could trill over what sounded like a third instead of just adjacent notes. Ponselle in the Blue Danube Waltz does a Wagnerian trill that almost drowned out the orchestra. It was jawdropping. Sutherland, Pavarotti and Horne do a great intro to Bel Canto video where they discuss trills.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oka12FxmRBg&t=376s


Flagstad and believe it or not Caniglia displayrd good trills. I could always trill and perfected it by attacking the note from above.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sutherland could do whole tone and half tone trills anywhere in her range and I'd be very surprised if Callas couldn't do the same. T-london or Mas would know.


Here is Callas teaching trills in one of her masterclasses.




Her trills were pretty amazing, whether short or long and she could even crescendo or diminuendo on them and vary the speed.

And here is a very good example of her superb trills. I don't know if you read music but, if you do, you will see that she practices what she preaches, and you'd go a long way to hear a trill as perfect as hers on the last note.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> *The tip of what ?!?!*


Said the newborn upon seeing the _mohel _and suddenly realizing that a_ bris _was a lot more than just a party with free booze and catered food.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> Said the newborn upon seeing the _mohel _and suddenly realizing that a_ bris _was a lot more than just a party with free booze and catered food.


Thank you, Shaughnessy, you are not only a tesaurus of musicology, but nurishes my knowledge of foreign languages!


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

BBSVK said:


> Moving this here from another thread:
> 
> I once attended a lecture on Norma. The teacher showed us Angela Meade singing "Bello a me ritorna" and complained, that you cannot hear the individual notes in the coloratura as written in the score. He hears them as incorrectly smeared together. Then he showed us Joan Sutherland on the same aria as somebody who does it right. He would tell Angela Meade to go and sing Tosca instead. We did not perceive it as very unpleasant, though. The teacher called it "lacking the tip", in Slovak. Is it also the English terminology ? Or how do you call it ?


Actually, you can sing all the notes "correct" and still sound very weird, just like how Deutekom handled bel canto:


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Actually, you can sing all the notes "correct" and still sound very weird, just like how Deutekom handled bel canto:


Horrible. I have heard it before and feel no inclination to play it now. The memory is enough. It was like gargling. So what did she do "differently" ?


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