# Carmen



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Does anyone here love Carmen? (The opera, I mean, not the character. Duh.)

I mean, does anyone here LOVE Carmen. I don't want to run it down, and of course the music is wonderful, or some of it is, but I'd just like to know: for you, what's the emotional hook? What's the dramatic impact?

Is it this poor girl gets mixed up with the wrong guy and gets killed and it's tragic?

Is it this poor misunderstood soldier gets seduced into throwing away his career, his dear old mom and his girl next door pining away for him back home by foolishly murdering the floozy?

Is it something else? I looked on the list of top 5 operas that people posted, and quite a few posters had it in their top 5, or at least in their 2nd 5. So I know SOMEBODY here treasures it. What's great about it?


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

She's not a poor girl, she's a force of nature. She doesn't develop as a character, admittedly. but I admire her independence. Don Jose on the other hand does have a journey, from murderer trying to go straight, to poor love-sick sook, to murderer again.

But actually, Greg, it's all about the tunes!:lol:


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

don't care for it myself. 

like his Pearl Fishers though.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> But actually, Greg, it's all about the tunes!:lol:


I was afraid of that ... I can enjoy it on the radio, but on the stage, I just don't get it. Haven't since I was a kid.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Itullian said:


> like his Pearl Fishers though.


Have to try that ... thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Doesn't really do much for me. If someone gave me a ticket I'd go. I've got a couple of DVDs but I only got them out of curiosity & after I'd watched the Kaufmann/Antonacci I gave it away.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Faust and Tales of Hoffman are 2 of my favs for French opera.

i love Gluck's operas too.

i like Don Carlos and William Tell in French too.

Tell is awesome under Gardelli on EMI


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Tell is awesome under Gardelli on EMI


Gardelli is awesome.full stop. If I could get a Carmen by him, I'd buy it.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

It is masterful in its invention, its exciting, tuneful, colouful, but it all hinges on who is singing Carmen.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Yes, I like Carmen very much and bearing in mind how long it is I think it fairly tears along. I've got the de los Angeles/Gedda/Beecham recording and it sounds very good for its age. And I like the naughty 'priming-pin' double entendre (typical Halevy/Meilhac) as Carmen asks what Don Jose is doing while he's cleaning his rifle.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Doesn't really do much for me. If someone gave me a ticket I'd go. I've got a couple of DVDs but I only got them out of curiosity & after I'd watched the Kaufmann/Antonacci I gave it away.


Yeah I think for some reason parents drag their kids to it because the music is great, and then when it turns out to be this incomprehensible "love" story (non-love story?) the kids get turned off opera forever! Honestly I think this one opera has done more damage to opera ...


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Faust and Tales of Hoffman are 2 of my favs for French opera.
> 
> i love Gluck's operas too.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah Tales of Hoffmann is great. And Don Carlo too, French or Italian, either way. I've never tried William Tell though, I'm sure I will at some point. My faves for French opera though are Tales of Hoffmann (which actually seems more culturally German to me, but what do I know), Comte Ory (very French in style) and Fille du Regiment.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Gardelli is awesome.full stop. If I could get a Carmen by him, I'd buy it.


What's the best thing Gardelli has done, that you know of?


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> What's the best thing Gardelli has done, that you know of?


William Tell


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Yeah I think for some reason parents drag their kids to it because the music is great, and then when it turns out to be this incomprehensible "love" story (non-love story?) the kids get turned off opera forever! Honestly I think this one opera has done more damage to opera ...


It's not very incomprehensible now is it ? Young man falls in love with slaggy bird who teases him silly. He breaks the army rules and gets nicked. Eventually he realises what's going on and that she fancies the glamorous toreador so he bumps her off.
How many times have we seen that story ?
My daughter saw it when she was eleven and thought it was a knockout,


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Oh yeah Tales of Hoffmann is great. And Don Carlo too, French or Italian, either way. I've never tried William Tell though, I'm sure I will at some point. My faves for French opera though are Tales of Hoffmann (which actually seems more culturally German to me, but what do I know), Comte Ory (very French in style) and Fille du Regiment.


Offenbach was German born (Cologne) which might explain that. This was his big effort to produce a grand opera and it is produced and recorded in Germany often.
As a complete production the Beecham/Los Angeles recording is best, Beecham was unsurpassed in French music. The drawback to me is the lady herself as much as I love her, she is too nice not "dirty" enough. But ,all in all it is the best from reasonably recent times.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> What's the best thing Gardelli has done, that you know of?


I would hate to recommend the 'best', I'm a passionate Verdi fan & love his early work which Gardelli did very well.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Wagner for one admired 'Carmen' greatly, he said it was the most intelligent opera to come out of France in years.

I think the plot is similar to many of those sorts of things. I think this was the first - or among the first - 'verismo' operas. Mixture of sex and kind of 'in your face' emotion. More were to follow - eg. by PUccini, Mascagni, Leoncavallo, and even Verdi got into it with 'TRaviata.' But it was a relatively short lived trend.

Its funny as when I was studying Shakespeare's 'Romeo and Juliet,' one of the students said a similar thing to some criticisms of 'Carmen's' plot above. Eg. this person said it's not a tragedy (compared to eg. 'Hamlet'), not very profound, its just a big stuff up basically. Just a plan that went wrong, in other words.

But anyway. 'Carmen' is one of the most popular operas for a good reason. As mamascarlatti pointed out, its very tuneful for one thing.

His other works are also amazing, not only the more lyrical type opera 'The Pearl Fishers' which uses recurring themes (similar a bit to Wagner) in a quite sophisticated way, but also things like his early 'Symphony in C' (I see it as a work foreseeing neo-classicism) and also his music to the play 'L'Arlesienne.'

I can go on, Bizet was a legend, admired by many at the time (incl. Saint-Saens and later Mahler). I actually hear some parallel between the 'Adagietto' from one of the L'Arlesienne suites and Mahler's own 'Adagietto' from Sym.#5. Bizet was an innovator and a great composer but his premature death robbed us of so much more great music that could have come.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> Offenbach was German born (Cologne) which might explain that. This was his big effort to produce a grand opera and it is produced and recorded in Germany often.
> As a complete production the Beecham/Los Angeles recording is best, Beecham was unsurpassed in French music. The drawback to me is the lady herself as much as I love her, she is too nice not "dirty" enough. But ,all in all it is the best from reasonably recent times.


I listened to the Los Angeles recording and I believe it had some music in it I liked, that I didn't remember from other productions. My fave to listen to is the Peters/Tucker/Stevens/Singher CD set, and my fave to watch is the Shicoff/Terfel DVD (although Terfel was a pretty weak villain, I thought).


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I would hate to recommend the 'best', I'm a passionate Verdi fan & love his early work which Gardelli did very well.


Oh Gawd, two of my least favorite Verdi operas! Well, I did ask. Ernani is fun though. I'll give it a try, and if it's good I'll move on and give Attila another chance (shudder). lol


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I think this was the first - or among the first - 'verismo' operas. Mixture of sex and kind of 'in your face' emotion. More were to follow - eg. by PUccini, Mascagni, Leoncavallo, and even Verdi got into it with 'TRaviata.' But it was a relatively short lived trend.


Well, so I could approach it in the same vein as Macbeth or Pagliacci - no heroes, no one to root for, just a growing awfulness that gradually hits bottom. I should try that.



> Its funny as when I was studying Shakespeare's 'Romeo and Juliet,' one of the students said a similar thing to some criticisms of 'Carmen's' plot above. Eg. this person said it's not a tragedy (compared to eg. 'Hamlet'), not very profound, its just a big stuff up basically. Just a plan that went wrong, in other words.


Yeah, R&J has never been my fave either. But in the Zeffirelli film it's clear how adorable the two protes are. What a classic that was. But the emotional hook was their adorableness and how awful it is when their families' screwups bring them down. There's nothing like that in Carmen, that I can see.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Oh Gawd, two of my least favorite Verdi operas! Well, I did ask. Ernani is fun though. I'll give it a try, and if it's good I'll move on and give Attila another chance (shudder). lol


:lol:

You don't _have_ to buy them!

















I can list them all if you like :devil:


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> You don't _have_ to buy them!


Well, I meant I would try them at the library. NYC performing arts library has mm, not everything but LOTS.



> I can list them all if you like :devil:


I'm sure you can.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I meant I would try them at the library. NYC performing arts library has mm, not everything but LOTS.


Phew!



guythegreg said:


> I'm sure you can.


----------



## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

moody said:


> It's not very incomprehensible now is it ? Young man falls in love with slaggy bird who teases him silly. He breaks the army rules and gets nicked. Eventually he realises what's going on and that she fancies the glamorous toreador so he bumps her off.
> How many times have we seen that story ?
> My daughter saw it when she was eleven and thought it was a knockout,


You know what i think ? the carmen suites are better than the opera!!To me it was depressing the opera.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

I quite like Carmen both as an opera/story and the great dramatic music and insightful evocative tonal musical renderings of Bizet.

The story is not complicated the free spirited temptress Carmen who is true to her nature even facing death refusing to be controlled by anyone. Don Jose develops a fatal attraction and destroys himself trying to have the one thing that will never be his (Carmen)......It is "not" a traditional love story like Romeo & Juliet with good guys to root for, but why should it be?

Just because an opera is very popular and music is immediately appealing does not mean it is shallow or without merit for the "serious" opera fan


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> I quite like Carmen both as an opera/story and the great dramatic music and insightful evocative tonal musical renderings of Bizet. ... Just because an opera is very popular and music is immediately appealing does not mean it is shallow or without merit for the "serious" opera fan.


Well, I wasn't trying to run it down; I was just trying to find out why people enjoy it dramatically. Musically, I get that; dramatically, well, we've had a few responses here that claim the opera is wonderful without actually answering the question. This happens to me in real life, too. I ask a question and people instead of answering it sidestep it or claim I'm attacking someone or some thing. It's hard for me to understand.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Great opera. One of my favorites.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I wasn't trying to run it down; *I was just trying to find out why people enjoy it dramatically*. Musically, I get that; dramatically, well, we've had a few responses here that claim the opera is wonderful without actually answering the question. This happens to me in real life, too. I ask a question and people instead of answering it sidestep it or claim I'm attacking someone or some thing. It's hard for me to understand.


*I have to admire Carmen's tremendous spirit and independence*.....at end when Don Jose begs her to reconsider and return to him even under threat of death she defiantly stands her ground and will not be controlled, she goes down swinging not grovelling for mercy


----------



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I am fond of Carmen for one reason - it helped me connect with my grandfather many years ago. He was no hignbrow, but he loved certain things he'd heard during his life in the way of both operatic (Caruso) and choral (Robert Shaw Chorale) music. I know he didn't fully understand my sudden fascination for serious classical music, but when I played Micaela's aria from Carmen for him, he was amazed. I actually bought a Mirella Freni concert album as a present for him that had that aria on it, and he played and played it over and over. Fond memories.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Vesteralen said:


> I am fond of Carmen for one reason - it helped me connect with my grandfather many years ago. He was no hignbrow, but he loved certain things he'd heard during his life in the way of both operatic (Caruso) and choral (Robert Shaw Chorale) music. I know he didn't fully understand my sudden fascination for serious classical music, but when I played Micaela's aria from Carmen for him, he was amazed. I actually bought a Mirella Freni concert album as a present for him that had that aria on it, and he played and played it over and over. Fond memories.


What a lovely story, Vesteralen. Thank you for sharing it with us.


----------



## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I'll cop to some Carmen love - but will readily admit, drama-wise, it’s at least 20 minutes too long. As I recall, it was the theater management at the Opera Comique who prevailed upon Bizet and his librettists to water down the verismo-esque story with some grand opera touches. Certainly the Act 1 children’s march does nothing for the plot, and the Act 2 opening gypsy dance and Act 4 toreadors’ parade are fine bits of scene-setting but that’s about it. 

People harp on the Carmen, but I think for the drama to come off, Don Jose is key. He’s the one that ostensively undergoes the transformation. For me, the final confrontation scene makes or breaks the drama. This is where the true ugliness of the story plays out, and it’s got to be played ugly. I don't know that I've seen the ideal Don Jose yet, but Roberto Alagna pulled it off well in the Met HD broadcast a few years ago.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Cavaradossi said:


> People harp on the Carmen, but I think for the drama to come off, Don Jose is key. He's the one that ostensively undergoes the transformation. For me, the final confrontation scene makes or breaks the drama. This is where the true ugliness of the story plays out, and it's got to be played ugly. *I don't know that I've seen the ideal Don Jose yet, but Roberto Alagna pulled it off well in the Met HD broadcast a few years ago*.


I noticed some unique details in the final confrontation/death of Carmen in this version......Alagna uses large crucifix to see if Carmen is a vampire before killing her (2:45-3:00) and after killing Carmen Alagna puts ring back on the finger of lifeless Carmen (kinda a nice demented detail, sentimental muderer))....like how we go all red after murder and rotate stage to killing of bull in the ring


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Cavaradossi said:


> I'll cop to some Carmen love - but will readily admit, drama-wise, it's at least 20 minutes too long. As I recall, it was the theater management at the Opera Comique who prevailed upon Bizet and his librettists to water down the verismo-esque story with some grand opera touches. Certainly the Act 1 children's march does nothing for the plot, and the Act 2 opening gypsy dance and Act 4 toreadors' parade are fine bits of scene-setting but that's about it.
> 
> People harp on the Carmen, but I think for the drama to come off, Don Jose is key. He's the one that ostensively undergoes the transformation. For me, the final confrontation scene makes or breaks the drama. This is where the true ugliness of the story plays out, and it's got to be played ugly. I don't know that I've seen the ideal Don Jose yet, but Roberto Alagna pulled it off well in the Met HD broadcast a few years ago.


I certainly agree about Don José , he's the only one that can be played in a number of ways. Do we start off with him already simmering with rage (don't forget, he had to flee his village for murdering another man) or is he ostensibly reformed, what does he really think of Micaela, do you play him a as weak and easily led or strong and passionate. My favourite Don José is the little known Luis Lima, I think he captured the essence of the man perfectly (see the whole production here), but Jonas Kaufmann is pretty good too. Alagna just seems too "hail fellow well met", I don't buy him as a knife-wielding murderer.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I wasn't trying to run it down; I was just trying to find out why people enjoy it dramatically. Musically, I get that; dramatically, well, we've had a few responses here that claim the opera is wonderful without actually answering the question. This happens to me in real life, too. I ask a question and people instead of answering it sidestep it or claim I'm attacking someone or some thing. It's hard for me to understand.


I think you should look again, you've had a number of people telling you all that is really necessary. You also mention two " faves" that you listen to and one that you watch. What more can anybody say ?


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> *I have to admire Carmen's tremendous spirit and independence*.....at end when Don Jose begs her to reconsider and return to him even under threat of death she defiantly stands her ground and will not be controlled, she goes down swinging not grovelling for mercy


Oh, OK. So you really see Carmen as a great character.

Sorry if I made you feel bad. That wasn't the intent, I hope you know.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> I am fond of Carmen for one reason - it helped me connect with my grandfather many years ago. He was no hignbrow, but he loved certain things he'd heard during his life in the way of both operatic (Caruso) and choral (Robert Shaw Chorale) music. I know he didn't fully understand my sudden fascination for serious classical music, but when I played Micaela's aria from Carmen for him, he was amazed. I actually bought a Mirella Freni concert album as a present for him that had that aria on it, and he played and played it over and over. Fond memories.


GREAT story. Thanks.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I think you should look again, you've had a number of people telling you all that is really necessary. You also mention two " faves" that you listen to and one that you watch. What more can anybody say ?


Well, when I mentioned two faves that I listen to and one that I watch, I wasn't talking about Carmen. Sorry if what I said was confusing.

I don't really want to go back over the posts and start pointing fingers - for what? to make people feel bad? - but since you've asked the question, let's look at your answer:

"It is masterful in its invention, its exciting, tuneful, colouful, but it all hinges on who is singing Carmen. "

My original question asked about dramatic impact and emotional hook. I don't see anything in your response about either of those things.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> I think for the drama to come off, Don Jose is key. He's the one that ostensively undergoes the transformation. For me, the final confrontation scene makes or breaks the drama. This is where the true ugliness of the story plays out, and it's got to be played ugly. I don't know that I've seen the ideal Don Jose yet, but Roberto Alagna pulled it off well in the Met HD broadcast a few years ago.


Wow - good answer! Thanks.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I certainly agree about Don José , he's the only one that can be played in a number of ways. Do we start off with him already simmering with rage (don't forget, he had to flee his village for murdering another man) or is he ostensibly reformed, what does he really think of Micaela, do you play him a as weak and easily led or strong and passionate. My favourite Don José is the little known Luis Lima, I think he captured the essence of the man perfectly (see the whole production here), but Jonas Kaufmann is pretty good too. Alagna just seems too "hail fellow well met", I don't buy him as a knife-wielding murderer.


You know, I can see it as a double bill - Pagliacci followed by Carmen - with the same guy as Canio and Don Jose. That'd set the stage appropriately, don't you think?


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> I listened to the Los Angeles recording and I believe it had some music in it I liked, that I didn't remember from other productions. My fave to listen to is the Peters/Tucker/Stevens/Singher CD set, and my fave to watch is the Shicoff/Terfel DVD (although Terfel was a pretty weak villain, I thought).


I think that the three above are most certainly all "Carmen".

I fail to understand what you mean by" going back over the posts and pointing fingers to make people feel bad-"---rather strange remarks. I think that everyone has struggled manfully to answer your original query.
I don't think I've got much interest to carrying on with this ,but as you seem to feel that that it has not been covered, I'll just point out that in seven posts from Mama Scarlatti, Dark Angel and me every possible angle has been covered. So just lump them all together and Bob's your uncle !


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

One of the key aspects of Carmen dramatically is that the protagonists are flawed and behave clearly in character. There is no extremely unlikely "noble" action (like Ernani kiling himslef for no really good reason) - even Micaela flollowing Jose into the wilderness is driven by love and probably despair that she is losing her only link to the man she loves. And also nobody dies for no good reason as happens in so many operas. SO I'd say dramatically that it is a lot stronger because more believeable, with a strong and magnetic but flawed central character, and a lover we can all recognise (weak, clingy and violent)


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Yeah, R&J has never been my fave either. But in the Zeffirelli film it's clear how adorable the two protes are. What a classic that was. But the emotional hook was their adorableness and how awful it is when their families' screwups bring them down. There's nothing like that in Carmen, that I can see.


Agreed, regarding Romeo and Juliet. I didn't care for most of the Zeffirelli production. However, the Romeo and Juliet were done very well. As an aside though, I think Prokofiev's ballet R&J is excellent.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> One of the key aspects of Carmen dramatically is that the protagonists are flawed and behave clearly in character. There is no extremely unlikely "noble" action (like Ernani kiling himslef for no really good reason) - even Micaela flollowing Jose into the wilderness is driven by love and probably despair that she is losing her only link to the man she loves. And also nobody dies for no good reason as happens in so many operas. SO I'd say dramatically that it is a lot stronger because more believeable, with a strong and magnetic but flawed central character, and a lover we can all recognise (weak, clingy and violent)


 Carmen is much like admiring the skill and cunning of a leopard hunting its prey, at first Carmen just flirts with Don Jose slowly and skillfully she breaks him down to where he has no control and sacrifices everything to have her.....and that is where she has no interest and moves on to next love conquest.

Also like a powerful leopard when cornered and facing death will not back down and surrender


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Another thing I'd add that the role of Carmen in this opera is hard to do as well. Eg. you have to dance well, and in the 'trad' production, dance on a table! You have to look the part too and I think act to convince people you are a women who likes to go with a lot of men. Well to put it more crudely, a wh*re. I think its hard to act that actually. Some of these types of roles in opera are hard, as if you underdo the 'femme fatale' thing (or whatever), you come off as a blushing flower which I think kind of deflates the whole thing.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Why do you call her that name? Seems to be some serious double standards here. She's serially monogamous,and there is no evidence she sells herself for money - in fact she refuses a lucrative smuggling deal because she's in love. She's just a free spirit who is not going to let herslef be constrained by some Victorian moral straightjacket of the virtuous (read non-sexual) woman.


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I certainly wouldn't call her a member of the world's oldest profession, but neither do I see Carmen as an admirable character. The entire plot is all about what Carmen wants: she wants José, then she decides she wants Escamillo, but in any case, she wants her freedom (though, of course, there's nothing objectionable in the last-named). If she doesn't do something -- i.e., the smuggling deal -- it's because she doesn't want to . . . Initially, she only wants José because of wounded vanity; he has the temerity to ignore her obvious charms. Unfortunately for her, she doesn't know that she's playing with fire when she goes after this guy, and she ends up getting burned. I don't find her a sympathetic character, but that's probably part of this opera's strength. It's given us two protagonists who are not especially admirable, who have some serious character flaws -- and are real, three-dimensional characters because of it.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Velvet Underground's glorious song 'Femme Fatale' could have been written for the man-eating Carmen.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I think that the three above are most certainly all "Carmen".


Ah, no. Those were all Tales of Hoffmann. I don't know if de los Angeles ever did a Carmen but I'm pretty sure Peters, Tucker, Stevens and Singher never got together on one, and Shicoff and Terfel I'm pretty sure never did.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> One of the key aspects of Carmen dramatically is that the protagonists are flawed and behave clearly in character. There is no extremely unlikely "noble" action (like Ernani kiling himslef for no really good reason) - even Micaela flollowing Jose into the wilderness is driven by love and probably despair that she is losing her only link to the man she loves. And also nobody dies for no good reason as happens in so many operas. SO I'd say dramatically that it is a lot stronger because more believeable, with a strong and magnetic but flawed central character, and a lover we can all recognise (weak, clingy and violent)


Ah, jeez, I don't think so. I think improbability is pretty important to opera in general. I think if it wasn't it would be far less frequent. It may be that the key trick in opera is to provide the viewer with just enough of a hurdle that they can get over. No hurdle = no opera. Too much hurdle = can't get there.

That said, the idea of Carmen as a great character, or the idea of Don Jose as kind of a sequel to Pagliacci, either one of those ideas might make it easier for me to attach myself to it. We'll see. I'll have to find a good performance. So often, a really good performance will make all the difference in terms of cluing me in to an opera's dramatic core.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sonata said:


> Agreed, regarding Romeo and Juliet. I didn't care for most of the Zeffirelli production. However, the Romeo and Juliet were done very well. As an aside though, I think Prokofiev's ballet R&J is excellent.


Oh, absolutely. I've loved Prokofiev's music to that since I was a kid. Had the chance to see American Ballet Theater's interpretation earlier this spring and was blown away. Kicking myself, actually, for getting a ticket to the very last performance - when if I'd got one to the first performance I would have given myself the chance to get more if it was good! Which of course it was.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> Carmen is much like admiring the skill and cunning of a leopard hunting its prey, at first Carmen just flirts with Don Jose slowly and skillfully she breaks him down to where he has no control and sacrifices everything to have her.....and that is where she has no interest and moves on to next love conquest.
> 
> Also like a powerful leopard when cornered and facing death will not back down and surrender


I'd forgotten that, but you're right, Carmen takes a very active role in getting Don Jose into her camp!


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Another thing I'd add that the role of Carmen in this opera is hard to do as well. Eg. you have to dance well, and in the 'trad' production, dance on a table! You have to look the part too and I think act to convince people you are a women who likes to go with a lot of men. Well to put it more crudely, a wh*re. I think its hard to act that actually. Some of these types of roles in opera are hard, as if you underdo the 'femme fatale' thing (or whatever), you come off as a blushing flower which I think kind of deflates the whole thing.


Well, a "blushing bride" Carmen certainly sounds inappropriate. Seems to me though, that the ideal of Carmen as a great character doesn't require her to go with a lot of men, just to be someone who likes men a lot. Someone who isn't afraid to step up and let a guy know she's interested. Perhaps someone who gets bored easily - a tigress who is looking for a companion tiger, and who unfortunately is fooled by Don Jose, discovers he's more of a pussycat than a tiger, and decides to move on.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I certainly wouldn't call her a member of the world's oldest profession, but neither do I see Carmen as an admirable character. . . . Initially, she only wants José because of wounded vanity; he has the temerity to ignore her obvious charms.


Is it wounded vanity, or does his ability to resist her charms advertise a strength he doesn't ultimately possess? She goes for him because he looks more mature than he turns out to be, I'm thinking. Ultimately, if that idea holds water, she's really looking for a mature guy. That seems like an admirable thing to want.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Is it wounded vanity, or does his ability to resist her charms advertise a strength he doesn't ultimately possess? She goes for him because he looks more mature than he turns out to be, I'm thinking. Ultimately, if that idea holds water, she's really looking for a mature guy. That seems like an admirable thing to want.


Maybe not so much that he is immature, as that he is horribly clingy and jealous.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Ah, no. Those were all Tales of Hoffmann. I don't know if de los Angeles ever did a Carmen but I'm pretty sure Peters, Tucker, Stevens and Singher never got together on one, and Shicoff and Terfel I'm pretty sure never did.


Things certainly managed to veer off track didn't they !
In a way it was partly my fault as I answered your point about about "Hoffmann" seeming Germanic and then went straight on back to "Carmen" in the next sentence. (post 16).
The Beecham, de los Angeles/Gedda, "Carmen" had been mentioned earlier by Elgars Ghost
Beecham made the film of "Hoffmann", he was good ,the cast not so good, it is available usually.Nobody else seemed to notice that things had gone considerably awry, not surprising with all the crazy leaping around.
For the record Shicoff recorded it with Jessye Norman /Ozawa.
Bryn Terfel with Marina Domashenko / Myung-Whun Chung.
Rise Stevens with Mario del Monaco/Rudolf.
" " " /Mitropoulos. Live.
" " " Jan Peerce/Reiner
" " " Richard Tucker /Papi (1937).


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Is it wounded vanity, or does his ability to resist her charms advertise a strength he doesn't ultimately possess? She goes for him because he looks more mature than he turns out to be, I'm thinking. Ultimately, if that idea holds water, she's really looking for a mature guy. That seems like an admirable thing to want.


Perhaps I'm influenced by the productions I've seen, but Carmen's reaction to José still strikes me as annoyance at his indifference toward her. She finally throws the flower at him in contemptuous frustration. Alas for her, she finally gets his attention . . .


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Look guys, the fact that we are able to argue about motivation points to a fairly convincing drama. Try and argue about motivation in a lot of bel canto and early Verdi and you'll see the difference


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> Why do you call her that name? Seems to be some serious double standards here. She's serially monogamous,and there is no evidence she sells herself for money - in fact she refuses a lucrative smuggling deal because she's in love. She's just a free spirit who is not going to let herslef be constrained by some Victorian moral straightjacket of the virtuous (read non-sexual) woman.


Well I was thinking of her compared to other operas where the woman is not hot blooded and well, not so open in expressing her sexuality. In terms of the word 'wh*re' its more like how some people saw the opera back then in the 1870's, as vulgar and not the subject of 'real' opera. I mean you compare it to a major French opera of roughly that era, Gounod's 'Faust,' and that comes across as quite sanitised and 'Mills and Boon' in comparison. That's what I mean.

But speaking personally I like everything I've heard from Bizet, 'Carmen' included, and generally I'm not a fan of opera (but do listen to get away from my usual 'fare' now and then, in other words for more variety). But I also like Gounod, so I'm not setting up a dichotomy, just comparing to make clearer what I'm saying.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sid James said:


> Well I was thinking of her compared to other operas where the woman is not hot blooded and well, not so open in expressing her sexuality. In terms of the word 'wh*re' its more like how some people saw the opera back then in the 1870's, as vulgar and not the subject of 'real' opera. I mean you compare it to a major French opera of roughly that era, Gounod's 'Faust,' and that comes across as quite sanitised and 'Mills and Boon' in comparison. That's what I mean.
> 
> But speaking personally I like everything I've heard from Bizet, 'Carmen' included, and generally I'm not a fan of opera (but do listen to get away from my usual 'fare' now and then, in other words for more variety). But I also like Gounod, so I'm not setting up a dichotomy, just comparing to make clearer what I'm saying.


You are right in that sense, Sid, from a contemporary point of view she would have been quite shocking.

Another Bizet opera I enjoyed was Djamileh:


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Look guys, the fact that we are able to argue about motivation points to a fairly convincing drama. Try and argue about motivation in a lot of bel canto and early Verdi and you'll see the difference


You mean like in Norma? Sonnambula? I Puritani? l'Elisir d'Amore? Lucia di Lammermoor? The presence or absence of questions about motivation doesn't make a drama more or less compelling, does it? It can make an ARGUMENT more or less compelling ... :lol:

That said, I haven't given up on Carmen - if I had I wouldn't have asked the question. Maybe I'm just looking for the right performance, the right performer. Sometimes that's all it takes.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

When I first heard Carmen it was a revelation to me. It came at a time when I had discovered what I thought were the core works of opera - Mozart, Verdi, Puccini mainly - but also Weber. I don't think I have ever taken to an opera so much from the first hearing. I don't think the Pearl Fishers is in the same league as Carmen - it has one great duet and apart from that i find it quite ordinary. The real miracle is how Bizet made that leap of genius and wrote Carmen as nothing before could suggest he was capable of it. I love the opera - from start to finish - there is not a moment that is anything but wonderful and ravishing to hear. In the character of Carmen he created a voice that is recognisable and unique. In Spain they revere this work - and yet Bizet was a frenchman setting an opera in Spain - in French! I could forgive the french anything for giving Carmen to the world. Bizet died not long after writing it - I think he was 36. A terrible loss for France and music.


----------



## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I am relatively a new listener to opera but a long time listener of classical music. Opera I have been getting into only in the last year and have yet to see many of the classic repertoire yet. I have been purchasing Blu-Rays a few at a time and one of my most recent was the Met version with Elina Garanca as Carmen and Roberto Alagna as Don Jose. Now forgive me that as I stated I am new to watching operas and also I have only seen this opera once. So before I get anyone angry with me bear that in mind when I say that the music for the most part was wonderful and Elina Garanca is quite convincing as a seductress. Alagna was fine also and both can sing wonderfully. That said though I found the plot rather lame. Someone above said that characters are "flawed" but what I would say is that the libretto and story plot are flawed. I get Carmen as a strong woman and Garanca pulls that off well and she is very seductive. The Don Jose character throwing away his career and honor for her to me was a stretch that kept me from enjoying the opera. I think that there could have been a more satisfying reason for Carmen's death than just clingy, obsessive, jealousy. Also Carmen's willingness to go to her death at his hands knowing he would kill her was another stretch for me. I think it goes beyond human nature. Don Jose's pining love for his mother also bordered on unhealthy in my opinion but that may be because I am not real close to my own mother and cannot imagine it as a modern man.

Anyway, I did find the music wonderful and the Blu-Ray picture was stunning. One of the best I have seen visually.

Kevin


----------



## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

You are not alone in finding Carmen a trial to get through. There are many operas where the plot doesn't make much sense- Il Trovatore and La Forza del Destino are just two i could mention!

They make for a long evening! And if the cast is not upto scratch then they are even worse!


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Have you guys seen this documentary? It's really about the new recording of Carmen with Magdalena Kozena and Jonas Kaufmann, conducted by Sir Simon Rattle. They have some really interesting things to say about the opera. Especially the ages of the characters, which, I must admit, I've never thought about.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> Have you guys seen this documentary? It's really about the new recording of Carmen with Magdalena Kozena and Jonas Kaufmann, conducted by Sir Simon Rattle. They have some really interesting things to say about the opera. Especially the ages of the characters, which, I must admit, I've never thought about.


Dammit Aksel, I wasn't going to buy this, and now I'm going to have to, and it's ALL your fault.


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Dammit Aksel, I wasn't going to buy this, and now I'm going to have to, and it's ALL your fault.


MWAHAHAHA! That's what you get for alerting me to Presto Classical's sales!


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

And I just found out from Amazon that the release date for the recording on this side of the pond has been delayed, and I'll have to wait another 1-2 weeks before it arrives.


----------



## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Read a review of this new recording from the wonderful http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Aug12/Bizet_Carmen_4402852.htm which is my favourite opera site apart from this of course!


----------



## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Just wanted to point out to those in the US that the Met summer encore performance of Bizet's _Carmen_ with Elīna Garanča is tonight at 7pm in select theaters:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Read a review of this new recording from the wonderful http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Aug12/Bizet_Carmen_4402852.htm which is my favourite opera site apart from this of course!


Interesting how the two reviews differ as to the Carmen. Just shows how subjective the business of criticism is.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I was afraid of that ... I can enjoy it on the radio, but on the stage, I just don't get it. Haven't since I was a kid.


how can you say no to this production???:


----------



## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Just wanted to point out to those in the US that the Met summer encore performance of Bizet's _Carmen_ with Elīna Garanča is tonight at 7pm in select theaters:


I was blown away by the original broadcast in 2010 and went again last night and was blown away again. Vocally, Garanca might not be the Carmen of the ages, but she was more than adequate, and dramatically she owned the stage from the Habanera to her last gasp. Alagna, well he seemed to be exorcising some personal demons in the final scene. Rollicking good time.

Has anyone else noticed how Met HD seems to have changed its digitial filming format in the last few years? Both in video and sound quality, this Carmen from 2010 had a live, immediate feel to it, while the Live in HD events I have attended in the last few years seemed more glossy and canned.


----------



## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Has anyone else noticed how Met HD seems to have changed its digitial filming format in the last few years? Both in video and sound quality, this Carmen from 2010 had a live, immediate feel to it, while the Live in HD events I have attended in the last few years seemed more glossy and canned.


See the last third of:
Lecture on Met broadcasts (and other opera & media topics)


----------



## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Have you guys seen this documentary? It's really about the new recording of Carmen with Magdalena Kozena and Jonas Kaufmann, conducted by Sir Simon Rattle. They have some really interesting things to say about the opera. Especially the ages of the characters, which, I must admit, I've never thought about.


Hi Aksel,

What do they say about the ages of the characters? Or could you or someone please direct me to what time in the video they start discussing this?

I enjoyed the Met Encore production on Wednesday a lot. I'd only seen Carmen once before, almost 10 years ago on DVD (it was for a college course, actually; this was long before I got into opera), but I wouldn't be able to tell you what version it was. I really appreciated this Met version. Great acting by the leads, and I loved the sets and the choreography.


----------



## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I usually disassociate with the characters in order to enjoy the music. The only one that gives me trouble is Madame Butterfly. I swear I can't listen to it without name-calling at Pinkerton.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Carmen has to be one of the most overrated and tiresome classical pieces ever.

[Edit: OK, I suppose that is unfairly harsh. I've just never been fond of it as it seems like 'pop' classical to me.]


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

brotagonist said:


> Carmen has to be one of the most overrated and tiresome classical pieces ever.
> 
> [Edit: OK, I suppose that is unfairly harsh. I've just never been fond of it as it seems like 'pop' classical to me.]


I know exactly what you mean. I got fed up with it & hadn't listened to it for ages. Then I saw that Anna Caterina Antonacci was singing it (replacing Elīna Garanča was became pregnant) & I'm hopefully seeing it in January.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

'Carmen' is the one opera that everyone will see & usually like. *Sex Appeal *is what it has - in very truth.

When we went to see it at our local theatre, it was *packed*, mostly with *men*, who didn't look like the usual respectable crowd. The man right next to me was wearing a coat that needed washing (he did too). I swapped with Taggart, whose sense of smell isn't as keen as mine, and found myself next to a man who kept la-la-ing all the songs sotto voce - but not *sotto* enough - with occasional ineffectual sallies from his wife to get him to pipe down. It kept me *bubbling *with irritation all night. 

I *still* enjoyed the opera. The music remains beautiful. For me, it's not the sex appeal, though it *is* tremendously sexy, yes, and very nice too.  It's the sense of *destiny* - the moment when Carmen reads her death in the cards, for instance. The musical motif 'of fate' never fails to ripple through my nervous system. Carmen just grabs me by the hair.

She must just *not have fancied* brotagonist!


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I love _Carmen_. Both the dialogues and the recitatives versions, though given the choice of an ideal version to perform, and provided I could enlist the right singers for it, I would prefer the premiere's version, with spoken dialogues.

The role of Carmen is my favorite. Among the many beautiful (and catchy) tunes that are present in _Carmen_, perhaps the more famous is the Habanera, sung by Carmen herself in the First Act.

Well, this was not the original intention of Bizet. In the first version of the opera, a standard aria was there in place of the Habanera. This was the original "L'amour est enfant de bohème":






However, Bizet was not very happy about the result and, even worse, neither was Célestine Galli-Marié. Searching for an alternative, Bizet heard a haunting melody contained in a collection of songs published in France under the title of "Fleurs d'Espagne". Considering that it was a kind of folklore song, Bizet proceed to use it as the basis for the Habanera.

And what's exactly an "Habanera"?. As suggested by its name, it's music coming from Cuba. Originally, a dance music style that was created around the beginning of the 19th century. In the 1860s, a Spanish composer, Sebastián Iradier, was visiting Cuba when he fell in love with that music, and wrote several "Habanera" songs.

One of them was soon very, very famous in Spain (and Cuba, too) as well as Mexico, and from there it gained a big popularity all across the world. It's, of course, 'La Paloma'. Another one, more obscure at first, was also going to be known everywhere, but in this case thanks to Georges Bizet. This is "El Arreglito":






And it was the basis for the new "L'amour est enfant de bohème", that was going to please the composer, and also the star singer. Incidentally, also enhanced the drama, adding what was then an exotic element to Carmen, an alien presence to the patrons of the Opéra-Comique. Bizet also enhanced the hypnotic aspect of all Habaneras with a splendid choice of instruments for the orchestration. Using almost the same melodic line, without any modulation, with a drone on D and three chords. Simplicity itself.

This was indeed something of a shock for the Parisian audiences in the 1870s, but has remained equally effective since then. A rather trivial song, turned by the genius of Bizet into the basis of Carmen's characterization. This is Teresa Berganza singing Carmen's Habanera:


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> Carmen has to be one of the most overrated and tiresome classical pieces ever.
> 
> [Edit: OK, I suppose that is unfairly harsh. I've just never been fond of it as it seems like 'pop' classical to me.]


What might "pop classical" be exactly ?
Does it include "Traviata ", "Boheme," "Butterfly", "Fledermaus" "L'Elisir ", "Barber of Seville", etc.etc.
That certainly cancels out a lot ,how are the opera houses going to make some money ?
But still,I've got one just for you :Haydn's "The World On the Moon", but please don't tell them out there or they'll just turn it into a "pop classic".


----------



## starlightexp (Sep 3, 2013)

I didn't get Carmen till I saw the right person play it. The show is my mom's #1 all time favorite yet it didn't rub off on me. Yes the score is tuneful, but it was one that I just listen to in the car or while working. There was no need to sit down and watch the thing. It takes a person with that whole 'x-factor' thing about them to play Carmen. She's not a very likable person on paper. She starts fights, seduces men etc etc. She is all about herself and making sure she is happy. She's not the typical operatic martyr heroin so it's hard to really like her when you think she is getting what she deserves. That being said, get the right woman in the part and it is delicious to watch. Elina Garanca, for me, was the one that changed my view on the opera. There was something about her portrayal that made it all click and once it clicked I could listen to others play the role and still get it. But I will admit I could do without the children singing … kids on stage…urg.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

schigolch said:


> I love _Carmen_. Both the dialogues and the recitatives versions, though given the choice of an ideal version to perform, and provided I could enlist the right singers for it, I would prefer the premiere's version, with spoken dialogues.
> 
> The role of Carmen is my favorite. Among the many beautiful (and catchy) tunes that are present in _Carmen_, perhaps the more famous is the Habanera, sung by Carmen herself in the First Act.
> 
> This was indeed something of a shock for the Parisian audiences in the 1870s, but has remained equally effective since then. A rather trivial song, turned by the genius of Bizet into the basis of Carmen's characterization. This is Teresa Berganza singing Carmen's Habanera:


*The Habanera is a great credo* sung by Carmen as she swaggers amongst her male admirers, it explains everything that will happen later in the opera, why Carmen will never compromise or be forced to submit.....it is not her "nature"


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I hate it. ............


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

schigolch said:


> I love _Carmen_. Both the dialogues and the recitatives versions, though given the choice of an ideal version to perform, and provided I could enlist the right singers for it, I would prefer the premiere's version, with spoken dialogues.
> 
> The role of Carmen is my favorite. Among the many beautiful (and catchy) tunes that are present in _Carmen_, perhaps the more famous is the Habanera, sung by Carmen herself in the First Act.
> 
> ...


Glad to see this production has Carmen singing the song at the one man not paying attention to her - Jose - many productions miss this simple point.

Berganza sings and acts well. But oh the merciless camera. In close-up she could almost be Jose's mum!


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I like CARMEN, but it's not my favorite French opera. Someone up-thread wrote "pop classical" as if it were a bad thing, but I actually prefer CARMEN when it's more like a musical -- that is to say, in its opera comique, spoken-dialogue version. I will admit that Act III (where Don Jose is with the gypsies at their mountain hideout) can seem very long.


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, Ms. Berganza was a peerless vocalist.

She was also Spanish, of course, as the character and some of the background music included by Bizet. Another of the Spanish based melodies used in _Carmen_, is the famous seguidilla in the First Act, when Carmen is left alone with Don José, that is watching over her.

The seguidilla is a dance originated in Castille, in the 17th century. It's a ternary rhythm, with the usual theme being about love ups and downs, and played with castanets, bandurrias, dulzainas and home-made percussion. We can listen to seguidillas below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SfY-0ZUDtEE#t=0

As Carmen was from Seville, is good to know that the Castillian's seguidillas evolved there to what we know as sevillanas, during the 18th century.

Bizet was just using this Spanish dance as a basis to provide what he wanted to present as a Spanish flavour. The flute playing low notes is intended to provide the other key of the number, Carmen's sensuality. Presented here again by Teresa Berganza:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

schigolch said:


> Well, Ms. Berganza was a peerless vocalist.
> 
> She was also Spanish, of course, as the character and some of the background music included by Bizet. Another of the Spanish based melodies used in _Carmen_, is the famous seguidilla in the First Act, when Carmen is left alone with Don José, that is watching over her.
> 
> ...


I love Carmen but we must realise that it was written by a Frenchman who, I believe, had never been to Spain.


----------

