# What does a conductor actually do...



## Guest (Aug 1, 2020)

...at a performance?

My wife asked this question while watching a Prom concert where the members of the orchestra were mostly not even looking at the conductor. If they already know, and have practised what the conductor wants, does she even need to be there?


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

My wife recently asked the same question, and I found this video which proved informative:


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2020)

WildThing said:


> My wife recently asked the same question, and I found this video which proved informative:


Thanks. Some useful pointers, most of which were familiar to me - and made sense. The idea of some conveying physicall to the orchestra hadn't occurred to me before - perhaps because some conductors offer so little in that regard. He didn't quite deal with the question about why the orchestra often seems to be 'behind' the conductor. I assume that's because the conductor has to be 'in front' - how else is he to communicate what he wants in time for each bar's arrival?


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

One does not have to look at the conductor to see the person...conductors provide downbeats, cutoffs, tempo changes, etc., but mostly work the rehearsals that prepare the program for performance.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> ...at a performance?
> 
> My wife asked this question while watching a Prom concert where the members of the orchestra were mostly not even looking at the conductor. If they already know, and have practised what the conductor wants, does she even need to be there?


Some ritardandos / accelerandos can be quite marked and will need the conductor to guide everyone - even if it has been rehearsed. I think it's true that most of the work is done in rehearsal.

A good musician will have his/her eye on the conductor as well as the sheet music.

I understand that beating in advance is quite a German thing. I don't quite get it myself. A lot of orchestras seem to stumble with Beethoven's 9th...even Karajan...at least to my sense of rhythm he and the Berlin Philharmonic lose it here:


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> ...at a performance?
> 
> My wife asked this question while watching a Prom concert where the members of the orchestra were mostly not even looking at the conductor. If they already know, and have practised what the conductor wants, does she even need to be there?


Conducting began as a self taught activity by the composer and gradually grew in prestige. To do it at the highest level has to be talent more than anything else because great conductors excelled from a young age and were immediately seen as special.

I don't think there is much you can learn, you either understand music or you don't, you can either keep time or you can't, and the passion you bring is also a love that can't be taught.


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## Shosty (Mar 16, 2020)

I personally found this episodes of Joshua Weilerstein's podcast helpful on the subject:

Conductors roundtable

There was another episode where he explained what a conductor does but I can't seem to find it. You might find it on Itunes or apple podcasts. It's called "What does a conductor really do".


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

No, I really don’t think “she” needs to be there.  :lol:


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2020)

1996D said:


> Conducting began as a self taught activity by the composer and gradually grew in prestige. To do it at the highest level has to be talent more than anything else because great conductors excelled from a young age and were immediately seen as special.
> 
> I don't think there is much you can learn, you either understand music or you don't, you can either keep time or you can't, and the passion you bring is also a love that can't be taught.


I'm sorry, but I'm not sure who you are addressing when you say "you" or how your post answers the question I asked.



Waldesnacht said:


> No, I really don't think "she" needs to be there.  :lol:


Why is 'she' in scare quotes? Why the rolleyes? And do you really think that there is no need for the presence of a conductor?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Why is 'she' in scare quotes? Why the rolleyes? And do you really think that there is no need for the presence of a conductor?


I may be wrong but I think Waldesnacht was citing your OP rather than using scare quotes.

_"If they already know, and have practised what the conductor wants, does *she* even need to be there?"_


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm not sure who you are addressing when you say "you" or how your post answers the question I asked.


You didn't get it? The conductor brings his understanding of music, his sense of tempo, and the love for music in the form of vigour that pieces need to be performed correctly.

The most successful conductors are handsome and charismatic, they lead the orchestra and present it to the public in its best light. All things that are inherent and/or self-taught.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Why is 'she' in scare quotes? Why the rolleyes? And do you really think that there is no need for the presence of a conductor?


A conductor? I thought you were referring to your wife.  :lol:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Waldesnacht said:


> A conductor? I thought you were referring to your wife.  :lol:


Whatever they want to do in the privacy of their own home is their business.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2020)

Waldesnacht said:


> A conductor? I thought you were referring to your wife.  :lol:


Ah, I see. No, I was just trying to avoid defaulting to the masculine when referring to the conductor.



1996D said:


> The conductor brings his understanding of music, his sense of tempo, and the love for music in the form of vigour that pieces need to be performed correctly.


OK. But this presumably is all worked out in rehearsal.



1996D said:


> The most successful conductors are handsome and charismatic, they lead the orchestra and present it to the public in its best light. All things that are inherent and/or self-taught.


I'm not sure what to say to this bit, except that I'm inclined to disagree. It may be the case - though a matter of opinion nonetheless - that the 'most successful' (by what criteria I wonder) happen to be handsome (assuming the word is applicable to male and female - but again, who's judging?), but the idea that handsomeness and charisma can be taught is...shall we say, doubtful


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

There used to be a video on youtube (about 10 years ago) of Victor Borge explaining this. Now it's gone.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

A good conductor holds the group together, clearly indicates tempo and manages to get everyone to start and end together. Then there's the interpretation - that takes a conductor from being a Kapellmeister to something more elevated. A really good conductor can get everyone to play rubato together. To be a great conductor takes more than baton skills. You need a high degree of charisma - an electrifying personality. 

Several people have mentioned this playing behind the beat. It is more prominent in German orchestras; the Berlin Philharmonic does it to frightening degree and more than one substitute player has been caught off guard. On some of their videos every now and then a player who is used to played "on the beat" does so. Every orchestra should play slightly behind and it throws inexperienced conductors who expect the sound exactly on the beat. When they don't get it, they freeze and fail to move on. It's called 2nd-beat-itis. Tempos begin to drag, tension vanishes and it becomes deadly dull. The bane of my conducting career such as it is are really bad, untrained percussionists who usually had their musical experience in a band. There's a guy I have to deal with every now and then who is determined to play exactly on the beat. So here comes my down beat and he's a fraction of a beat ahead - so we have a cymbal or bass drum solo because he's anticipating. He never learned, and never will, to wait for the "ictus", that quick flick at the beat. 

Conducting looks so easy from the audience standpoint, but it's a very difficult thing to do, and do well. You're constantly "on". There's no down time, no breaks. If you mess up by missing a meter change, incorrectly cuing an entrance, beating 4 instead of 2 like you rehearsed it, you can really damage the performance. The musicians know whose fault it is, but the audience always blames the orchestra. The scariest moment of my life was opening night of The Nutcracker years ago. Standing there with baton in hand and realizing that the moment I give the upbeat there's no going back, no starting over - for the next 45 minutes I have to manage all of the continual tempo and meter changes, keep my eye on the stage to help the dancers, and still take control of the orchestra. It's terrifying. But when it's done and if everything went well it's a high like nothing else in the world.


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## PierreN (Aug 4, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> There used to be a video on youtube (about 10 years ago) of Victor Borge explaining this. Now it's gone.


That may not be what you are referring to but in the following video Victor Borge demonstrates how it's done:






(On edit Or maybe it was this one?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> A good conductor holds the group together, clearly indicates tempo and manages to get everyone to start and end together. Then there's the interpretation - that takes a conductor from being a Kapellmeister to something more elevated. A really good conductor can get everyone to play rubato together. To be a great conductor takes more than baton skills. You need a high degree of charisma - an electrifying personality.
> 
> Several people have mentioned this playing behind the beat. It is more prominent in German orchestras; the Berlin Philharmonic does it to frightening degree and more than one substitute player has been caught off guard. On some of their videos every now and then a player who is used to played "on the beat" does so. Every orchestra should play slightly behind and it throws inexperienced conductors who expect the sound exactly on the beat. When they don't get it, they freeze and fail to move on. It's called 2nd-beat-itis. Tempos begin to drag, tension vanishes and it becomes deadly dull. The bane of my conducting career such as it is are really bad, untrained percussionists who usually had their musical experience in a band. There's a guy I have to deal with every now and then who is determined to play exactly on the beat. So here comes my down beat and he's a fraction of a beat ahead - so we have a cymbal or bass drum solo because he's anticipating. He never learned, and never will, to wait for the "ictus", that quick flick at the beat.
> 
> Conducting looks so easy from the audience standpoint, but it's a very difficult thing to do, and do well. You're constantly "on". There's no down time, no breaks. If you mess up by missing a meter change, incorrectly cuing an entrance, beating 4 instead of 2 like you rehearsed it, you can really damage the performance. The musicians know whose fault it is, but the audience always blames the orchestra. The scariest moment of my life was opening night of The Nutcracker years ago. Standing there with baton in hand and realizing that the moment I give the upbeat there's no going back, no starting over - for the next 45 minutes I have to manage all of the continual tempo and meter changes, keep my eye on the stage to help the dancers, and still take control of the orchestra. It's terrifying. But when it's done and if everything went well it's a high like nothing else in the world.


Nice post mbhaub. I'm still curious about this playing behind the beat...you say that, 'Every orchestra should play slightly behind...' - could you explain why?

During a long tempo transition wouldn't this cause issues?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Several people have mentioned this playing behind the beat. It is more prominent in German orchestras; the Berlin Philharmonic does it to frightening degree and more than one substitute player has been caught off guard.


It's true - I remember hearing Abbado/BPO performing Mahler 9 in Boston Symphony Hall....amazing delayed beat!! it sounded like they were almost playing on the upbeat!! It was together....

One of my former teachers told a funny story about Leinsdorf, when he conducted the Rochester Philharmonic...the orchestra, esp the woodwinds, played with a big delay, "behind the beat" style due to Leinsdorf's baton technique...
The orchestra was going on tour, stopping first in Cleveland, with Mozart #41 on the program...
just before they left, Leinsdorf calls all the principals into his office....<<No more delayed beat stuff!! when the stick comes down, you play!!>>

My teacher said they indeed played that way in Cleveland - worst mess he'd ever heard!! nobody knew when to enter, everyone guessing....terrible ensemble.....
post-concert - Leinsdorf, angry, calls all principals into his dressing room: <Forget about what I said, go back to the way you were doing it!!> :lol:

Another time, I heard a program at Chautauqua Festival - Steinberg conducting - this was a summer venue, mostly Pittsburgh SO personnel....the program consisted of "Don Juan" and Beethoven Sym #5....these are notable in that they start with a very strong, yet silent downbeat [nobody plays on the downbeat, but the tempo must be firmly, instantly established]
With both pieces - huge delayed beat!! Steinberg wound up, the baton lancing down strongly for the downbeat - and _nothing happened_ for it seemed like 5 seconds!! Actually, it was probably about a full second or so - but after a seemingly huge delay, the orchestra all came in together, very strongly, in tempo!! it was quite remarkable to witness.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Nice post mbhaub. I'm still curious about this playing behind the beat...you say that, 'Every orchestra should play slightly behind...' - could you explain why?
> During a long tempo transition wouldn't this cause issues?


There is a definite chemistry, a "6th sense" regarding ensemble playing, whether in chamber music or orchestra work.
Each musician must sense when the ensemble is actually going to commence making sound...this is a combination of breathing, body English, timing - knowing when you must start producing sound to be in perfect unity with the others...
this will naturally result in a slight delay - the conductor's beat is the general cue - but the musicians themselves must sense within the ensemble exactly when to start...it's rather complex, overall...
_the stick comes down and you play_ is a very gross oversimplification of the process.

A soft entrance, at slow tempo, after a long rest interval is the trickiest...even on recordings, you will often hear a slight error in ensemble in such places.

also - among string players, there is a strong dictum that says, "don't stick out" - don't be first to jump in....this naturally results in some hesitation, which taken cumulatively, can cause a certain delay...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

1996D said:


> The most successful conductors are *handsome *and charismatic, they lead the orchestra and present it to the public in its best light. All things that are inherent and/or self-taught.


Really? Check out these stunners!


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2020)

Merl said:


> Really? Check out these stunners!
> 
> View attachment 140664
> 
> ...


All the very definition of handsome and charismatic!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> All the very definition of handsome and charismatic!


I bolded the word 'handsome' not 'charismatic'. They are/were all charismatic but boy what an ugly bunch. Szell always looked 80 yrs old even in his 40s.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Handsome is an adjective that can be applied to women as well as men but it is not so common to do so. So if the men have to be handsome what physical quality do we expect for a woman conductor to be effective?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It always amazes me how great conductors get different sounds out of an orchestra with just a few tweaks of the wrist. Apparently van Kempan was conducting the BPO and warming them up for Karajan. Then Karajan took over and without a word being said the BPO played completely differently. It is quite astonishing. I remember dear old Adrian Boult conducting a Prom in his dotage when he could hardly get to the platform it seemed but when he waved that stick, what sounds came out of the orchestra. So there is far more than time beating. It's as if the conductor puts his soul into the orchestra.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> Handsome is an adjective that can be applied to women as well as men but it is not so common to do so.


And generally for women it is not quite so much a compliment as a substitute for not being "pretty" (though also not usually "ugly").


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> It always amazes me how great conductors get different sounds out of an orchestra with just a few tweaks of the wrist. Apparently van Kempan was conducting the BPO and warming them up for Karajan. Then Karajan took over and without a word being said the BPO played completely differently. It is quite astonishing. I remember dear old Adrian Boult conducting a Prom in his dotage when he could hardly get to the platform it seemed but when he waved that stick, what sounds came out of the orchestra. So there is far more than time beating. It's as if the conductor puts his soul into the orchestra.


It might be that a conductor is also a set of expectations that are known by the musicians.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I do a fair amount of conducting, but have very little formal training.

The on-the-beat / behind-the-beat / ahead of the beat thing seems a bit weird. I've always thought of it as the conductor being slightly ahead because of reaction time from the orchestra. Most of my conducting is done from the piano, and with smaller ensembles, and I expect strict adherence to the beat - that's what "prep" is for; reaction time is unnecessary because everyone is "with" me prior to the beat - I'm "predictable" - my players and/or singers can sense accurately when the beats will be.

As a from-the-piano conductor my conducting style has evolved to include a good deal of non-hand cueing (as my hands are usually busy) - head, shoulder, leans, body rolls, etc. This continues even when conducting "regular" (not from the keyboard).

I also regularly employ a "double prep", as I often cannot actually give a downbeat, as I'm also playing. (So, if we're in 4, and everyone is coming in on beat 1, they get a 3 - 4, and we all know where the downbeat WILL BE, even though I can't actually give it)

I'm an effective conductor, and rarely need to explain to the players/singers, although I do encourage input from the players - It's great when they have some needs or suggestions - I will usually change my plan of cueing to incorporate suggestions. It's not about making them bend to my conducting, it's finding the best way to communicate with the musicians, and they know what they need.

I've worked with amateur conductors that were awful . . . can't keep a steady tempo, can't anticipate (most of my playing is for theatrical or operetta performances), no-prep-downbeats, etc.

I've worked with 2nd year conducting students who *"know everything"*, and I've watched different conductors conduct the same music with the same orchestra.

And THAT is how I learned the value of a good conductor.

Years ago I was in the orchestra (playing string patches on keyboard) for a production of *West Side Story*, a very difficult work to conduct. Our orchestra contractor doubled as the conductor, and he just couldn't swing it. The orchestra was sloppy, and the players would get lost. His style wasn't distinct enough, he'd lose his place rhythmically, and two days before the Friday night opening he was replaced. I'd worked with him many times, and everyone liked him, but *West Side Story* was beyond him.

The Musical Director stepped in on Wednesday night, stood on the dais, stared us all down, lifted his arms slightly, waited a moment, then cued us all in. We were crisp, dynamic, and accurate. He knew the score up, down, and sideways, and we sounded like a different orchestra. It was inspiring, and gave us all confidence in ourselves.

The next night, the final dress rehearsal, the 'replacement' conductor was brought in, and he was quite good. Not quite as great as the Musical Director, not as charismatic, but he could certainly do the job.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

My wife asked me the same question too. I told her the conductor is the dude who wrote the music. It seems to shut her up. Then I told her, I don't know who you are, I don't have a wife.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Merl said:


> Really? Check out these stunners!
> 
> View attachment 140664


Don't forget the loveable Stokowski in the prime of his life


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A trenchant answer from violinist Nigel Kennedy: “I think conductors are completely over-rated anyway, because if you love music, why not play it? Why wave around and get off on some ego ****? I don't think the audience give a **** about the conductor. Not unless they've been pumped full of propaganda from classical music writing or something. I mean, no one normal understands what the conductor does. No one knows what they do! They just wave their arms out of time."

Pianist Steven Kovacevich sagely adds, “Conducting is the last bastion of quackery outside the medical profession."


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Re: behind the beat. Use this analogy. You're stopped at a red light. It changes to green. You don't instantly go - there's small delay as the green signal is sent to your brain and interpreted, then the brain sends the signal to the foot to hit the gas. There is a small, but undeniable delay. And there is in many things. So - your eye sees the down beat, but it takes a split second for all the mechanics in your body and instrument to produce the sound. That short delay is always going to be there. In ensembles that play together regularly with the same conductor they can really stretch the delay - and believe it or not, it creates a much tighter ensemble than. But it takes skill and a conductor with the body language and baton technique to do it. American orchestras by and large play on the beat. German orchestras behind.

Re: conductor's appearances. Look at cd covers of late. Conductors, violinists, cellists, pianists, one particular guitarist. Notice how they're dressed and made up. You'd think they're selling clothing or makeup or something other than music. Sex sells. Look at the pros out there conducting. I'm not saying they're all movie-star handsome or pretty, but you don't see ugly fatsos anymore. It's an image thing. Once they get to a certain age, who cares if they've proven their ability. I remember seeing Sarah Caldwell conduct and the promoter was so distressed by her serious girth that he put a curtain up behind the podium to hide her enormity (she conducted sitting down). And don't kid yourselves, more than one classical performer has gotten to where he/she is because of their looks, not necessarily because they were any good. I could tell a horrific tale told be by the late Ken Schermerhorn that shocked me - and he told me this 45 years ago. It was a #metoo long before #metoo became a thing.

Another thing conductors do: charge WAY too much for their work. James Levine was making $30,000 per performance before he was sacked. I've read Dutoit will charge $100,000 to do rehearsals and a concert. Insane.


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> Re: behind the beat. Use this analogy. You're stopped at a red light. It changes to green. You don't instantly go - there's small delay as the green signal is sent to your brain and interpreted, then the brain sends the signal to the foot to hit the gas. There is a small, but undeniable delay. And there is in many things. So - your eye sees the down beat, but it takes a split second for all the mechanics in your body and instrument to produce the sound. That short delay is always going to be there. In ensembles that play together regularly with the same conductor they can really stretch the delay - and believe it or not, it creates a much tighter ensemble than. But it takes skill and a conductor with the body language and baton technique to do it. American orchestras by and large play on the beat. German orchestras behind.
> 
> Re: conductor's appearances. Look at cd covers of late. Conductors, violinists, cellists, pianists, one particular guitarist. Notice how they're dressed and made up. You'd think they're selling clothing or makeup or something other than music. Sex sells. Look at the pros out there conducting. I'm not saying they're all movie-star handsome or pretty, but you don't see ugly fatsos anymore. It's an image thing. Once they get to a certain age, who cares if they've proven their ability. I remember seeing Sarah Caldwell conduct and the promoter was so distressed by her serious girth that he put a curtain up behind the podium to hide her enormity (she conducted sitting down). And don't kid yourselves, more than one classical performer has gotten to where he/she is because of their looks, not necessarily because they were any good. I could tell a horrific tale told be by the late Ken Schermerhorn that shocked me - and he told me this 45 years ago. It was a #metoo long before #metoo became a thing.
> 
> Another thing conductors do: charge WAY too much for their work. James Levine was making $30,000 per performance before he was sacked. I've read Dutoit will charge $100,000 to do rehearsals and a concert. Insane.


Sex and money, that's how the world work. But every now and then there are great artists that transcend the system, freeing everyone through great art, for a brief moment. Mediocrity and politics are the necessary prices we pay for occasional greatness.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ethereality said:


> Don't forget the loveable Stokowski in the prime of his life


Stoki was quite a striking figure, esp in his early/middle years....like many conductors, quite the womanizer as well....


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

An analogy that made sense to me was to a movie director. Scorsese [for example] generally doesn't write the script, but he hires the players, tells them what style and emphasis he would like to convey, runs them through rehearsals, and when the day comes to commit it to film, he gets the actors to play it a certain way, gets the lighting director to light it a certain way, gets the cinematographer to shoot it a certain way, and declares when it's "done."

So the director didn't "do" any of what you see when you watch the movie. But a Scorsese film is vastly different than a Kubrick film or a PT Anderson film.

Just like a Karajan concert is vastly different than a Gardiner concert or a Bernstein concert or a Dudamel concert etc. etc.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> An analogy that made sense to me was to a movie director. Scorsese [for example] generally doesn't write the script, but he hires the players, tells them what style and emphasis he would like to convey, runs them through rehearsals, and when the day comes to commit it to film, he gets the actors to play it a certain way, gets the lighting director to light it a certain way, gets the cinematographer to shoot it a certain way, and declares when it's "done."
> 
> So the director didn't "do" any of what you see when you watch the movie. But a Scorsese film is vastly different than a Kubrick film or a PT Anderson film.
> 
> Just like a Karajan concert is vastly different than a Gardiner concert or a Bernstein concert or a Dudamel concert etc. etc.


It's not a good analogy, movie directors have complete power and a script can be easily changed by an actor with improvisation or even rewritten completely like Brando used to do, it's (the script) not really important to the movie; the director is everything after the superstar actor that usually carries the movie.

In music the superstar is the composer and the conductor must seek to understand the intention , because it's complex, then lead the orchestra to perform it correctly. A good conductor must remember that he's not the composer.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

1996D said:


> It's not a good analogy, movie directors have complete power and a script can be easily changed by an actor with improvisation or even rewritten completely like Brando used to do, it's (the script) not really important to the movie; the director is everything after the superstar actor that usually carries the movie.
> 
> In music the superstar is the composer and the conductor must seek to understand the intention , because it's complex, then lead the orchestra to perform it correctly. A good conductor must remember that he's not the composer.


By that reasoning, every single conductor but (perhaps) one is by definition bad at their job, because each performance sounds different, while only one can (possibly) be "correct."

I am apparently more promiscuous in my tastes. I can listen to Gardiner's Beethoven, Karajan's Beethoven, Furtwangler's Beethoven, Chailly's Beethoven, etc. and find something illuminating and novel in each. I have my favorites to be sure, but I try not to denigrate a rendition I dislike as being useless or "wrong."

I never claimed the analogy was perfect. I find it useful. Your mileage may vary.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2020)

Some very useful comments. Thanks. Can I just point out that my OP question was not meant to sound facetious, though I have no complaint that some took it that way. And it was not just "What does a conductor actually do..." but "What does a conductor actually do *at a performance*?"

In one sense, there's an obvious answer, since you can see what the conductor is actually physically doing: waving their arms about a lot or not very much, depending on personal preference. And moving their bodies too to a greater or lesser degree.

So, perhaps there are two questions - both of which have been answered to some extent, but some might have more to say.

What does all that arm waving and body swaying mean - and if there's not much going on, why do some conductors think it necessary and others not?

And if the arm waving and body swaying is, in fact, optional, is there something else going on that is essential to a live performance that means the conductor must be there?


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> By that reasoning, every single conductor but (perhaps) one is by definition bad at their job, because each performance sounds different, while only one can (possibly) be "correct."
> 
> I am apparently more promiscuous in my tastes. I can listen to Gardiner's Beethoven, Karajan's Beethoven, Furtwangler's Beethoven, Chailly's Beethoven, etc. and find something illuminating and novel in each. I have my favorites to be sure, but I try not to denigrate a rendition I dislike as being useless or "wrong."
> 
> I never claimed the analogy was perfect. I find it useful. Your mileage may vary.


The difference between say Karajan and Bernstein is not comparable to the difference between Kubrick and Scorsese because conductors don't create anything, they recreate something that already exists. The conductor projects his understanding of something that was created independently and thus creates nothing, he simply interprets.

It's the same thing with the musician, he is not creating he is recreating, and of course with people being different no performance will be the same.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

To continue with the movie analogy, it’s like every conductor is doing a shot-for-shot remake.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes. I understand what makes movies and symphonies different. I understand that conductors usually do not write the music being played (though some times they do). I understand that the analogy is imperfect (as all analogies must be). 

With that said, there have been shot by shot remakes of movies. So the analogy between movies and orchestral performances becomes even more apt if one were to consider Hitchcock's Psycho and Gus Van Santa's remake.

You could analogously compare Copland conducting "Appalachian Spring" to Bernstein conducting it. One created the original "script," while the other did not. They are quite different, and the difference springs precisely from "what the conductor does" (I prefer Copland's interpretation, for what it's worth, as I find Bernstein's variable tempii distract me from the music).

Also, there are conductors who add and remove things from written compositions, much like film directors do. I'm not saying this is a good thing (or a bad thing) but it further shows the aptness of the analogy.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Yes. I understand what makes movies and symphonies different. I understand that conductors usually do not write the music being played (though some times they do). I understand that the analogy is imperfect (as all analogies must be).
> 
> With that said, there have been shot by shot remakes of movies. So the analogy between movies and orchestral performances becomes even more apt if one were to consider Hitchcock's Psycho and Gus Van Santa's remake.
> 
> ...


Well I'm watching a movie right now and it couldn't be more different than what composing is. Women immediately relate to the characters' feelings (you can feel it) and the actors I believe are the stars of the movie. We can look at some technical and artistic things, and I certainly enjoy Kubrick's art, but movies are really voyeuristic experiences and an almost human experience like having a conversation. A sort of social thing you do with someone, where they care if you're watching with them or not.

Music is pure art, it doesn't matter who you're with or what you're doing, and it's abstract and deep. You can relate conducting to film making, but not composing, that's another realm.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> An analogy that made sense to me was to a movie director. Scorsese [for example] generally doesn't write the script, but he hires the players, tells them what style and emphasis he would like to convey, runs them through rehearsals, and when the day comes to commit it to film, he gets the actors to play it a certain way, gets the lighting director to light it a certain way, gets the cinematographer to shoot it a certain way, and declares when it's "done."
> 
> So the director didn't "do" any of what you see when you watch the movie. But a Scorsese film is vastly different than a Kubrick film or a PT Anderson film.
> 
> Just like a Karajan concert is vastly different than a Gardiner concert or a Bernstein concert or a Dudamel concert etc. etc.


Yes, I can see some parallels. The notion of a coherent creative vision, for example, as well as the technical ability to nudge the 'performance' of the assembled team to achieve that vision. Thanks.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2020)

1996D said:


> Well I'm watching a movie right now and it couldn't be more different than what composing is. *Women immediately relate to the characters' feelings *(you can feel it) [etc]


Ouch !


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> Some very useful comments. Thanks. Can I just point out that my OP question was not meant to sound facetious, though I have no complaint that some took it that way. And it was not just "What does a conductor actually do..." but "What does a conductor actually do *at a performance*?"
> 
> In one sense, there's an obvious answer, since you can see what the conductor is actually physically doing: waving their arms about a lot or not very much, depending on personal preference. And moving their bodies too to a greater or lesser degree.
> 
> ...


At a performance the conductor conducts.

The arm waving differences between conductors is a matter of choice and style, just as there is a difference between the styles of guitarists or violinist. There is no "one way". It's an "in the moment" kind of thing. And I wouldn't really expect a conductor to conduct the same piece the same way on different performances.

What facets of the piece the conductor choose to emphasize depends on many things, the skill level of the players, their familiarity with the work they're performing, even the audience reaction. He/She may need to beat time in some sections, and may feel inspired to have the woodwind players bring out a counterpoint line more today.

So, while you may see performances of baroque pieces (and maybe some earlier classical) that have no conductor, as music evolved, it becomes more and more difficult for an orchestra to drive itself.

Let's look at an exception . . . *Leonard Bernstein* playing AND conducting from the piano *Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue*.

While it's not as complex as a *Brahms* symphony, or *The Rite of Spring*, *Bernstein* is STILL CONDUCTING even while he plays . . . body language, facial expressions, movements, head bobs (with prep beats), not to mention that he's keeping the orchestra together WITH HIS PLAYING as well.

I think that while players CAN sound just fine without a dedicated conductor for some pieces, they will play much better than "just fine" WITH a decent conductor at the helm. She/He can bring out nuances, inspire more passionate playing, and also increases the audiences enjoyment of the work.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Bernstein, when asked why he dances, prances and gesticulates so much, said that for him the conductor's job was to "act out" what he wanted to hear. And he was right. If you want a huge sforzando you physically do it. You want a long, smooth line - you conduct it with your arm movements and your body. For some conductors it becomes comical- they act so spastic but don't get the results you'd expect. Then there were the Reiner's and Boult's who stood still, rarely did anything dramatic and still got stunning results.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bernstein does entertain, and act as an emotional barometer for the audience in what would be an otherwise depersonalized experience.

The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra doesn't use a conductor.

The orchestra is an hierarchy, not a self-sustaining unit. The conductor symbolizes the head of the hierarchy, and reminds us that we are all just cogs in a big machine.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Bernstein, when asked why he dances, prances and gesticulates so much, said that for him the conductor's job was to "act out" what he wanted to hear.


Lenny was certainly demonstrative, esp in his earlier years, at live concert or on TV...the musicians didn't mind, they knew a lot of it was show for the audience....as long as he gave clear cues to the orchestra, the histrionics were not an issue. Interesting to see him work in the studio, tho - much more reserved - his video of "West Side Story" [Te Kanawa, Carreras] is most interesting - very straight and to the point....[no audience] - Of course then there is his video with VPO of Haydn 88/IV - where he stops beating, completely...conducts with just his eyes, hunches of shoulder, glances...very Reiner-like [He studied with Reiner, of course]



> For some conductors it becomes comical- they act so spastic but don't get the results you'd expect.


Those clowns are hopeless....they just get in the way...the orchestra has to ignore them.



> Then there were the Reiner's and Boult's who stood still, rarely did anything dramatic and still got stunning results.


Monteux, also - these guys are giving constant cues and signals, but they are very subtle, virtually invisible to the audience - but glaringly bright to the musicians. Two of the best conductors I played for were Walter Hendl and Boris Goldovsky - both Reiner students - knew exactly what they needed to hear, knew what went wrong, and knew how to fix it. Both would, at times, just stop beating time - no arm motion, no hand or stick motion - but, the eyes were always alert, on the lookout, giving cues, little nods - they'd let the orchestra play, but their hand was always on the tiller for instant correction, if necessary.

Some interesting quotes:

"The best conducting technique is that which achieves the maximum musical result with the minimum effort. The only general rule is to infuse all gestures with precision, clarity, and vitality." - *Fritz Reiner*

*Reiner on Leonard Bernstein, 1944:* "Wait until you see that kid conduct tonight. _Mit einem Schmiss_ [with fiery verve]! Watch out for him. He's going to make a real career."

*Leonard Bernstein on Reiner, 1989:* "He was a genius, apart from all other conductors I've ever known. He was tyrannical, he was cruel, he was bitter, he was ruthless in his treatment of us if we didn't know what was happening. His standards were incredibly high, and I bless him for it."


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There's also the amazing Kaleidoscope orchestra in Los Angeles: conductorless, they play superbly well, and they stand up to play. Hearing them play the Shostakovich 5th like this is quite special.

Check out the website: https://www.kco.la/


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> ...at a performance?
> 
> My wife asked this question while watching a Prom concert where the members of the orchestra were mostly not even looking at the conductor. If they already know, and have practised what the conductor wants, does she even need to be there?


Kleiber always complained that the orchestra wasn't looking at him!! The work had been done beforehand, but Kleiber did shape the melody with his hands and baton. See the comments of Manfred Honeck in "Traces to Nowhere", the documentary about Carlos Kleiber.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Monteux, also - these guys are giving constant cues and signals, but they are very subtle, virtually invisible to the audience - but glaringly bright to the musicians.


Yet as I observed before, often, the musicians are not looking at the conductor. At least, that's how it seems from TV coverage.

At any rate, it's clear to me that while most of the work is done in rehearsal, all members of the orchestra need feedback on how things are sounding as a whole at the time of performance, and that's what the conductor can provide.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The most important thing for me is the conductor's role in overseeing and shaping the whole. I am perhaps particularly aware of this when a conductor does something that surprises me - or, perhaps, that I don't like - and then makes sense of it by using it to deliver something special later on (of fails to do that!). It is the way a work feels and tastes when you've heard it all - made up of details and the conductor's sound but also of their skill in building climaxes and shaping the whole thing - that is important to me.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

" "Oops we forgot to press record" "

" Bro what if this guy is just conducting a recording with no orchestra for 14 hours :lol::lol::lol: "

" Doctor: you only have 15 hours to live.
Me: "

" 10:10:50 Did he seriously throws his stick "


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Bernstein, when asked why he dances, prances and gesticulates so much, said that for him the conductor's job was to "act out" what he wanted to hear. And he was right. If you want a huge sforzando you physically do it. You want a long, smooth line - you conduct it with your arm movements and your body. For some conductors it becomes comical- they act so spastic but don't get the results you'd expect. Then there were the Reiner's and Boult's who stood still, rarely did anything dramatic and still got stunning results.


Bernstein never looked like a clown, he had beautiful movement. It does get annoying seeing some of the more robotic conductors that make it seem like they planned and practised every movement.

Like in everything you have talent and then systematic people that try to copy talent.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

According to Georg Solti:

“ The miracle of conducting is that the body, eyes and soul of a conductor transfer something, intangible and unique, to an orchestra. If an orchestra plays the same 16 bars of music under different conductors, those bars will sound different on each occasion.”


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

1996D said:


> *Bernstein never looked like a clown*, he had beautiful movement. It does get annoying seeing some of the more robotic conductors that make it seem like they planned and practised every movement.
> 
> Like in everything you have talent and then systematic people that try to copy talent.


I didn't mean to imply him - although he was called "one of the sweaty ones" by Boult. Every person I've talked to who played with him and my own experience seeing him live confirms this: he lived the music he was conducting. It took over his whole body, mind, soul - everything. No one I know ever had anything but the highest praise for his conducting. The way he spoke to a chauffeur I know is a different matter!


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> I didn't mean to imply him - although he was called "one of the sweaty ones" by Boult. Every person I've talked to who played with him and my own experience seeing him live confirms this: he lived the music he was conducting. It took over his whole body, mind, soul - everything. No one I know ever had anything but the highest praise for his conducting. The way he spoke to a chauffeur I know is a different matter!


That's probably the most important quality a conductor can have, a player too. It's the love for music.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

KenOC said:


> A trenchant answer from violinist Nigel Kennedy: "I think conductors are completely over-rated anyway, because if you love music, why not play it? Why wave around and get off on some ego ****? I don't think the audience give a **** about the conductor. Not unless they've been pumped full of propaganda from classical music writing or something. I mean, no one normal understands what the conductor does. No one knows what they do! They just wave their arms out of time."
> 
> Pianist Steven Kovacevich sagely adds, "Conducting is the last bastion of quackery outside the medical profession."


Well, for all his 'quackery' Carlos Kleiber earned a great deal of money and international fame. Those comments from Nigel Kennedy are typical of the misanthropy that characterizes that head-case.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

Merl said:


> I bolded the word 'handsome' not 'charismatic'. They are/were all charismatic but boy what an ugly bunch. Szell always looked 80 yrs old even in his 40s.


I loved Frans Bruggen so all bets are off!! Who will ever forget this moving experience?






Bruggen achieved great things with his Orchestra of the 18th Century.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Christabel said:


> Well, for all his 'quackery' Carlos Kleiber earned a great deal of money and international fame. Those comments from Nigel Kennedy are typical of the misanthropy that characterizes that head-case.


Asked if he had any conductor friends, Kennedy responded, "I wouldn't hang with conductors, man. I've got standards!"


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

1996D said:


> Bernstein never looked like a clown, he had beautiful movement. It does get annoying seeing some of the more robotic conductors that make it seem like they planned and practised every movement.
> 
> Like in everything you have talent and then systematic people that try to copy talent.


Look mummy, no hands!!!






*Stunning music*, and Bernstein loved the "professors" of the Vienna Philharmonic - as do I.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

KenOC said:


> Asked if he had any conductor friends, Kennedy responded, "I wouldn't hang with conductors, man. I've got standards!"


It's the nature of those 'standards' which is the problem!! The Andre Rieu of the East End.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2020)

This conductor was anything but ugly, especially in his earlier years:

https://whro.org/radio/181-carlos-kleiber-a-conductor-unlike-any-other

And this is part of that conductor's work in action!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Deleted...domestic peace and all that.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> What does a conductor actually do...


I can think of a number of things:

1. Planning the programming, which works to perform
2. Inspire the orchestra musicians to play their best and to accept his interpretation of the work(s)
3. Attract audiences to the concerts, 
4. Show up for fund-raising events and generally help with encouraging support for the orchestra
5. Rehearse the orchestra in an effective manner, i.e. gaining their respect and trust in order to elicit the performance he wants of the music
6. To have a clear idea of the performance he wants, and be able to communicate that idea
7. Finally to bring all this to fruition at the concert: Knowing when enough rehearsal has occurred but not too much so that the concert is the peak of the orchestra's interest in the work and his relationship with the orchestra and the work.


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

An orchestra is not a MIDI file player: the notation only approximates the music, and so a thousand decisions about dynamics, phrasing, intonation, and voicing must be made. The main role of the conductor is to provide a unified interpretation of the music. Watch Pierre Boulez rehearsing the Lulu Suite—he just hears one note and knows the orchestra has to adjust the dynamics in each section to make the polyphony clear. Imagine the failure if each musician just had their own interpretation, no matter how good their musical intuition.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I can think of a number of things:
> 
> 1. Planning the programming, which works to perform
> 2. Inspire the orchestra musicians to play their best and to accept his interpretation of the work(s)
> ...


Do you think this conductor fulfills at least some of those 7 requirements?


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I can think of a number of things:
> 
> 1. Planning the programming, which works to perform
> 2. Inspire the orchestra musicians to play their best and to accept his interpretation of the work(s)
> ...


Thanks for the list...

...but it was not quite the question I asked. Only 2. really applies.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2020)

I'm very glad we have conductors, especially 'celebrity conductors' like those we all know so well, because they help brand recognition and have doubtless created a greater demand for recorded music and live performances. People respond to name brands which are synonymous with quality. I know I do.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> A trenchant answer from violinist Nigel Kennedy: "I think conductors are completely over-rated anyway, because if you love music, why not play it? Why wave around and get off on some ego ****? I don't think the audience give a **** about the conductor. Not unless they've been pumped full of propaganda from classical music writing or something. I mean, no one normal understands what the conductor does. No one knows what they do! They just wave their arms out of time."
> 
> Pianist Steven Kovacevich sagely adds, "Conducting is the last bastion of quackery outside the medical profession."


Does anyone ever take anything Nigel Kennedy says seriously? I find it very difficult to take seriously a middle class fella who puts on a phoney working-class accent and thinks he makes it sound convincing by swearing!

Interesting that Kovacevich himself has done his share of conducting so he himself is indulgent in quackery


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

If we are to believe some on this site all modern conductors do nothing, they're just "podium prissies". :lol:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

What? Well magic of course..


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Merl said:


> If we are to believe some on this site all modern conductors do nothing, they're just "podium prissies". :lol:


And we have pages and pages of posts discussing their art! :lol:


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

DavidA said:


> And we have pages and pages of posts discussing their art! :lol:


The thing is the old greats already set the template for them to follow - all pieces in the repertoire have been performed by someone who set the bar - all the new ones have to do is listen and copy to the best of their ability.

Once we have new great tonal pieces then there can be another superstar conductor, only then.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2020)

Klaus Tennstedt was a highly respected and much-loved conductor who was one of the very few admired by Carlos Kleiber. Tennstedt was a highly strung man; a chain smoker filled with doubts. The London Philharmonic loved him. This is quite beautiful and it's a joy to watch that modest man on the podium:






I was researching Tennstedt for a community music program two years ago and I learned that as a 18 year old living in Dresden during the war he was drafted into the fire department and had to pull charred bodies out of buildings after the fire-bombing of that city. That's a life-changing experience which explained a lot about Tennstedt's nervous nature. He was very dear to me, just like Kleiber.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

pianozach said:


> I do a fair amount of conducting, but have very little formal training.
> 
> The on-the-beat / behind-the-beat / ahead of the beat thing seems a bit weird. I've always thought of it as the conductor being slightly ahead because of reaction time from the orchestra. [...]


It seems weird to me, too. The performers/musicians react to the conductor, he/she is the guide, so a conductor should never 'conduct' behind the beat. If he/she is, then he/she has got a problem. One can't guide by running behind.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Not having read all the posts, I think the conductor did most of his work before he even sees the musicians and during rehearsal. If a conductor has to do a lot of work during the concert, he somehow didn't invest enough in rehearsing. 

Gergiev is a good example of a conductor who is too busy (?!) to rehearse and who has to work very hard during the performance. Gergiev also is a typical example of a charismatic conductor. If you ever watch a masterclass by Gergiev, you can feel the enormous charisma the man has, compared to his students. Someone like Karjan was a very thorough rehearsal man, who would train a piece of music to his orchestra in detail and so he only had to work on details during performance 

In general, I think there are many ways leading to Rome when it is about conductors style and efficiency, just as there are numerous types of leadership. We discussed them a lot in this forum, it goes from dictators to storytellers and from very strict to more rubato kind of approaches. 

I also think there is a big difference between conducting an opera or a symphonic work. A symphony is like a walk in the park for a conductor, compared to conducting an opera.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

NLAdriaan said:


> Not having read all the posts, I think the conductor did most of his work before he even sees the musicians and during rehearsal. If a conductor has to do a lot of work during the concert, he somehow didn't invest enough in rehearsing. [...]


Well, of course the title and the first post are very important to take notice of... this goes for every thread/topic.

*What does a conductor actually do...*



MacLeod said:


> ...at a performance?
> 
> My wife asked this question while watching a Prom concert where the members of the orchestra were mostly not even looking at the conductor. If they already know, and have practised what the conductor wants, does she even need to be there?


So, we may presume that the preparation and rehearsal stuff was already clear for MacLeod's wife.



But yeah, what you said about Gergiev is most likely true. Some fast and furious travelling conductors have more work to do during concerts, and probably the musicians will take more notice of him/her.

It also happens that a conductor might change his ideas during or shortly before the concert. I recall reading once about a story in which Bernstein, on the day of the concert, admitted to some orchestra members that he felt depressed because it was the x-th anniversary of JFK's death. And because of his changed mood, he conducted the piece (I forget which one, maybe a Mahler symphony) in a completely different way than he had done during the rehearsals. Which meant that the orchestra had to be razor sharp and very alert to follow him.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Christabel said:


> Klaus Tennstedt was a highly respected and much-loved conductor who was one of the very few admired by Carlos Kleiber. Tennstedt was a highly strung man; a chain smoker filled with doubts. The London Philharmonic loved him. This is quite beautiful and it's a joy to watch that modest man on the podium:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A Chain Smoker - that's the Tennstedt I remember. I sneaked back stage to get his autograph. He was in a t-shirt, sweating profusely, a cigarette in the mouth and a Heineken in one hand. He invited me in and offered my a Heine - I wish I'd kept that bottle! And offered a cig, but I declined that. Great guy.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2020)

Marc said:


> So, we may presume that the preparation and rehearsal stuff was already clear for MacLeod's wife.


Indeed. Mrs MacLeod is very happy about the pre-performance stuff!


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Sometimes the conductor doesn't do anything.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Waldesnacht said:


> Sometimes the conductor doesn't do anything.


But he is doing something - watch his eyes, his facial expressions, nods, glances, etc...he's totally wired in with the or orchestra


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> But he is doing something - watch his eyes, his facial expressions, nods, glances, etc...he's totally wired in with the or orchestra


I'm doing that now.

I'm conducting my ten principals live, and ten ensemble via video, as they sing along to backing tracks. We "open" tonight.

I don't always have to be helping; they're pretty capable on their own. Mostly I'm giving cues, but I do a lot of expressions and other whatnot.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2020)

The Brahms Symphony No. 3 posted in #82 without conductor must have been Valery Gergeiv who phones in his rehearsals and performances. The start of the movement there falls rather flat, but they do gather up a head of steam as they proceed. Somebody would have been making executive decisions about this performance. The movement is too fast for my taste, especially the ending. What's the hurry; plane to catch?

What a superb symphony in any case, despite the lack of balance between the sections of the orchestra!! The concertmaster sure looks self-satisfied!!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> A Chain Smoker - that's the Tennstedt I remember. I sneaked back stage to get his autograph. He was in a t-shirt, sweating profusely, a cigarette in the mouth and a Heineken in one hand. He invited me in and offered my a Heine - I wish I'd kept that bottle! And offered a cig, but I declined that. Great guy.


Wow, thank you for sharing that, mbhaub. Do you remember what was on the program that night? I have great respect for Tennstedt and it has grown a bit after reading that. Sounds like he was a great guy in addition to being a great musician (they don't always go hand in hand! )


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