# Angriest Composers



## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Thought this would be an interesting topic. The composers that best express their pieces in anger. Tbh, I kinda like the emotion these composers bring. Yeah I wouldn't listen to them all the time but anger is a gift sometimes.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Schoenberg's 'Variations for Orchestra' Op. 31...


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Gotta put Schnittke in there as well. I do think he has an enjoyable side as welll. But the older he got, the more miserable he got.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Is the musical "anger" a reflection of what the composer was actually feeling and experiencing at the time of stringing the notes and harmonies together, or more YOUR interpretation of the music? I suspect the latter...


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

You can feel the anger through the composers notes. That kind of anger.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't care whether the composer intended to express anger or not; if i feel it in the music I will probably like it very much. 

Unfortunately, I don't hear much anger in classical music. I look forward to this discussion. Great topic!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*Vaughan Williams* - _Sym.#4_ (hard not to feel the composer's anger, or at least concern, at world events in the 1930's, but he denied any program)

*Walton* - _Sym.#1_, esp. the second movement, _presto con malizia_ (anger at a relationship that went sour - I guess Mr. Walton had been 'dumped' by his girl?)

*Elgar* - _String Quartet in E minor _(after WW1, a reflection on feeling impotent - and maybe old & numbed - at what had happened when those 'Worcester lads' he knew never came home, they where lying buried in the fields of France)

*Kodaly *- _Psalmus Hungaricus _(after losing his job at the Academy of Music in Budapest due to him being against the conservative government post-WW1)

*Lutoslawski* - _Cello Concerto _(again, he denied any connection, but at the time he wrote it, Poland was going through some very bad industrial unrest and his mother had just died, the cello playing one note at the start and end of this work, and in turn 'battling' with outbursts from the brass section, has been said by some to symbolise the individual against authoritarian rule...it's certainly no walk in the park, but my connection with it upon the first listen was immediate, despite never hearing anything by Lutoslawski before)

*Schoenberg* - _Ode to Napoleon Bonaparte for baritone reciter, piano and strings _(using the words of Lord Byron, Schoenberg makes an angry protest against tyranny of any kind - this work being composed at the height of WW2).


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Penderecki, I hear a little anger in some of his works, for example _St. Luke Passion_, a brilliant work though.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Sid James said:


> *Vaughan Williams* - _Sym.#4_ (hard not to feel the composer's anger, or at least concern, at world events in the 1930's, but he denied any program)
> 
> *Walton* - _Sym.#1_, esp. the second movement, _presto con malizia_ (anger at a relationship that went sour - I guess Mr. Walton had been 'dumped' by his girl?)
> 
> ...


But I think this is contextual interpretation, brought about through your reading of the composers emotional reaction to the historical, personal, political (etc) circumstances, in which he/she was writing... . By way of illustration, thunder when used metaphorically is often, across cultural boudaries, interpreted to signify anger yet depending on the story it can (and does) signify an orgasm - hence turning angry into a fructifying thunder. Your hearing "anger" is pretty well dependent on what you interpreted was in the composers heart and head. I don't think this in anyway diminishes the emotional legitimacy of the music though. Further, given the changing nature of tonal and harmonic aesthetics, what was once considered dissonant becomes dissonant (e.g. maj 7th chords) adding the confusing element of historical context into whether we interpret a peice as "angry" or not.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

This masterpiece is an enormous outpouring of grief and despair, with a heavy dose of anger apparent for much of it too. The work builds to an absolutely tremendous climax of rage and questioning of God (at 13:25) before the optimistic, reverent miracle of a conclusion.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KRoad said:


> But I think this is contextual interpretation, brought about through your reading of the composers emotional reaction to the historical, personal, political (etc) circumstances, in which he/she was writing...


Well you can say that for the purely instrumental works, but in terms of the Kodaly and Schoenberg, the texts of those works do speak to anger. In terms of Kodaly, it's the prophet who is a voice in the wilderness, crying out against injustice & in terms of the Schoenberg work, Lord Byron's text leaves no doubt as to what his view of Napoleon was, eg. that he was a tyrant and cruel dictator. Both composers illustrate the texts with music that I'd call in parts 'angry,' but of course their own 'historical, personal, political' circumstances (as you say) plays a big part in this.

As for the instrumental works, whether or not the listener hears emotions like anger will ultimately be up to him and subjective to a good degree. However, I think the marking in Walton's _Symphony #1_ 'con malizia' (with malice) had never been used before, he made it up. I think he used this because basically he was p*ssed off, he was angry at his breakup. Whenever I hear a performance of this work, it hinges on how aggressive that movement is played. If it's not aggro enough, I feel the performance isn't successful.

But I am interested in history, it is my area, so I will connect what's going on in the composer's life with the work. However, these works do speak to a type of anger and emotions like that, and writers on music have made similar connections, there is a consensus in interpretation/analysis of these works to a good degree.


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## FSM (May 18, 2012)

Beethoven, of course. He had damned good reason to be angry.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Sid James said:


> However, these works do speak to a type of anger and emotions like that, and writers on music have made similar connections, there is a consensus in interpretation/analysis of these works to a good degree.


Yes, but what counts as a _valid_ interpretation? That which we connect with the composers emotional state of being at the time of writing or that which we respond to as a result of out own cultural presuppositions and historical circumstances. To use the worn-out Wagner as an example - we respond in significantly different ways to his music depending on how we deal with its connection to Hitler and Nazi Germany - and in this example we are dealing with libretto and not simply instrumental music. So I think a lot hinges on what we choose to judge valid. The one, however, should not take precedence over the other.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

FSM said:


> Beethoven, of course. He had damned good reason to be angry.


B. went through three distinct periods. Anger must have given way to resignation which in turn gave way perhaps to acceptance - all of which can be interpreted as being reflected in his music - if we wish to hear it that way.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Liszt (many works)
Beethoven (Symphony No. 5)
Dvorak (Symphony No. 7)

If these are not angry, I don't know what it might be.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Arsakes said:


> Liszt (many works)
> Beethoven (Symphony No. 5)
> Dvorak (Symphony No. 7)
> 
> If these are not angry, I don't know what it might be.


I would say Beethoven's fifth is more triumphant than angry.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

FSM said:


> Beethoven, of course. He had damned good reason to be angry.


:lol: Beethoven was a Sagittarius.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KRoad said:


> Yes, but what counts as a _valid_ interpretation? That which we connect with the composers emotional state of being at the time of writing or that which we respond to as a result of out own cultural presuppositions and historical circumstances. ...


I don't necessarily think there's one valid interpretation, there can be several. Different writers on music, as well as performers and listeners, will have different experiences, emphasise different things. However, if there is some sort of consensus around certain things - like the works I gave as examples of 'angry' music - then one is on safer territory to make certain conclusions. Or it can be like a smorgasbord, you take what you want from the different opinions and form your own.



KRoad said:


> ... To use the worn-out Wagner as an example - we respond in significantly different ways to his music depending on how we deal with its connection to Hitler and Nazi Germany - and in this example we are dealing with libretto and not simply instrumental music. So I think a lot hinges on what we choose to judge valid. The one, however, should not take precedence over the other.


I don't think Wagner, who you mentioned, is a very good example. He is still controversial, he tends to attract quite polarised opinion. I'm talking about the 'real world,' not online places like this forum, which have more Wagnerites than I'd meet in real life in half a dozen lifetimes. He is far from being universally - or near that - loved, unlike say J.S. Bach, the three B's, Mozart, & even some composers of 20th century like PUccini and Rachmaninov would be more popular and broadly accepted than Wagner.

But I don't want to derail this thread, just saying he's too controversial, so of course its difficult to get consensus with regards to him.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

science said:


> Unfortunately, I don't hear much anger in classical music.


the same for me, if i have to think to angry music i think of rock music.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Beethoven's got a lot of _something_ in his music. Quite a lot of anger I would say.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

MaestroViolinist said:


> Beethoven's got a lot of _something_ in his music. Quite a lot of anger I would say.


Beethoven's music is famous for being angry just as Beethoven himself was famous for being angry, but I think from just some of these "angry' pieces by Beethoven people are getting the wrong idea of his music. I have always thought that a lot of Beethoven's music was full of joy and triumph and that was what his music should be remembered as. He only wrote angry music when he needed to.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

I doubt it is possible to write angry music. Anger is too transient an emotion. You read letters in newspapers written by people saying they are enraged or incandescent about something or other, and I always find it hard to believe. How can you write a letter while you are incandescent with rage? The pen in your hand would spontaneously combust. More so with the complicated business of music composition.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Chris said:


> I doubt it is possible to write angry music. Anger is too transient an emotion. You read letters in newspapers written by people saying they are enraged or incandescent about something or other, and I always find it hard to believe. How can you write a letter while you are incandescent with rage? The pen in your hand would spontaneously combust. More so with the complicated business of music composition.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Chris said:


> I doubt it is possible to write angry music. Anger is too transient an emotion. You read letters in newspapers written by people saying they are enraged or incandescent about something or other, and I always find it hard to believe. How can you write a letter while you are incandescent with rage? The pen in your hand would spontaneously combust. More so with the complicated business of music composition.


You're right actually. To me, music is completely devoid of emotion but can cause emotion in people. People also may hear certain techniques used in the music that can cause them to imagine such emotions. Music itself isn't "angry," but because of the elements that are used in it, it might cause people think of it as "angry music."


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You're right actually. To me, music is completely devoid of emotion but can cause emotion in people. People also may hear certain techniques used in the music that can cause them to imagine such emotions. Music itself isn't "angry," but because of the elements that are used in it, it might cause people think of it as "angry music."


this is like say tha actually sugar isn't really sweet, but your brain elaborate it as sweet. Where's the difference?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

norman bates said:


> this is like say tha actually sugar isn't really sweet, but your brain elaborate it as sweet. Where's the difference?


This sugar tastes overly sweet
Beethoven's fifth symphony got angry at me the other day


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## Merve (Jun 7, 2012)

I don't think Beethoven's music is usually angry, but the man himself certainly was


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

*Allan Pettersson*


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You're right actually. To me, music is completely devoid of emotion but can cause emotion in people. People also may hear certain techniques used in the music that can cause them to imagine such emotions. Music itself isn't "angry," but because of the elements that are used in it, it might cause people think of it as "angry music."


Well it is subjective, ultimately. But any opinion is worth just as much as another, if informed by experiencing the actual music. & also, for me, reading about the inspiration and history of the work, etc. That's why I put that list, which I think are 'angry' works, and I gave reasons. Note that I did not put the likes of Shostakovich, Penderecki, Mahler, Xenakis, and so on, as on the whole they don't give me what I call 'anger.' They may give me things like pathos, or irony, horror, a visceral 'gut' feeling, and so on, but not anger. But of course, it's just my reaction/opinion.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Talk about angry , I think Prokofiev's rarely played 2nd symphony is possibly the most ferociously dissonant work I can think of. So savage and dissonant it makes Stravinsky's Rite of Spring sound like Mendelssohn !
It's beyond angry. It's brain- hemmoragingly , foaming at the mouth furious . It sounds like the Mongols invading medieval Russia . Like being eaten alive by piranhas in an Amazonian river or being attacked by starving wolves in a dark forest .
When it was played by the New York Philharmonic several years ago under Valery Gergiev, the New York Times critic who reviewed the concert said that the audienced seemed "flummoxed " by the symphony , and I can understand why .


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Beethoven's music is famous for being angry just as Beethoven himself was famous for being angry, but I think from just some of these "angry' pieces by Beethoven people are getting the wrong idea of his music. I have always thought that a lot of Beethoven's music was full of joy and triumph and that was what his music should be remembered as. He only wrote angry music when he needed to.


True, definitely.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

the one that wrote o for tuna. shes a looney.


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