# Stockhausen, a real composer or a put on?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't know. What do you folks say?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

He was a "real" composer, and one of the innovators of his time. Esp. in terms of things like musical notation, eg. inventing new dynamic markings in his_ Klavierstucke _pieces for piano.

My favourite work by him is his _Tierkreis_, a very theatrical work (which is a common thread through a large part of his output), and best seen/heard live. I had the privelege to see and hear it live, it has lots of whimsy and spontenaiety.

That work is on THIS two cd set, which also has some kind of chill-out vibed electronic pieces, and also _Zyklus_, which was an important work for solo percussion in the mid 20th century.

I am not a fan of his extemely avant-garde pieces such as the _Helicopter Quartet_, but I am one for judging a composer on the basis of his more mainstream works, or ones with potential for broader appeal.

_Gruppen_ and _Stimmung _are excellent works, the former orchestral and the latter choral.

THIS recent article on Stockhausen from the Telegraph in the UK is quite interesting...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

what about that massive opera cycle, licht something. good?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Itullian said:


> what about that massive opera cycle, licht something. good?


An earlier thread on_ Licht _is HERE, Jeremy Marchant's posts on this and other works by Stockhausen are quite informative and based on a good deal of experience of his music...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Sid James said:


> An earlier thread on_ Licht _is HERE, Jeremy Marchant's posts on this and other works by Stockhausen are quite informative and based on a good deal of experience of his music...


thanks, great link. interesting stuff


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Shouldn't this thread have a poll? 
I mean, dichotomous titles are usually followed by a poll.
I want a poll.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Composers are people who create music, Stockhausen created music. I'm sorry, but that's just a stupid question.

If you're asking for recommendations, mine are as follows:

Tierkreis (2003 version)
Dienstag aus Licht
Gruppen / Carré
Luzifers Zorn
Lichter Wasser


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Stockhausen was a remarkable alien. My favourite work would probably be either Gruppen or Donnerstag aus Licht.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

How could he not be a "real" composer? Was he a mirage or what? Maybe an alien?


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

My gut feeling is that hes a bit of a charlatan - that being said I do have a disc of his "music" and quite enjoy it


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> How could he not be a "real" composer? Was he a mirage or what? *Maybe an alien?*


Yes he was indeed. Born on a planet orbiting Sirius. He came to Earth to save music and did a bloody good job at it! :clap:


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Karlheinz Stockhausen was a composer, no alien. Calm down folks.

Most of the stuff of his that I have heard are not my cup of tea. But I came across this piece, which was relatively interesting using the piccolo trumpet. _Oberlippentanz_ (1983)






But then you also get noisy stuff like this, which is simply nonsense.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^Stockhausen _was_ an alien. Get your facts right. He said so himself!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

did he really say he was an alien?


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I particularly like Freude, 40 minutes of ethereal plinking and harmonious harpists, really sounds otherworldly, he must be an alien!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

very interesting, so far i like this stuff ok.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Itullian said:


> did he really say he was an alien?


Yes he did. He never denied being an alien either.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Yes he did. He never denied being an alien either.


then he was a nut, i guess. maybe he was kidding, or hyping himself.
was he a nut in other ways?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Itullian said:


> then he was a nut, i guess. maybe he was kidding, or hyping himself.
> was he a nut in other ways?


No no no. He _was_ an alien. He liked the term "star child."


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> did he really say he was an alien?


No.

You have to understand that even composers - even _German _composers - have a Sense Of Humour.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

To really assess the quality of today's composers one must listen to their music live. I listened to some excerpts of his _Licht _in a concert (he himself was conducting) and it was an unforgettable experience, as it was when I listened to Boulez's _Répons_


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Stockhausen, a real composer or a put on?


As I said in an earlier post, which Sid James has referenced here, Stockhausen decided in the seventies to devote 25 years of his life to _Licht_. I suggest, if you want to answer the question, you go no further than 1977 and pick some of the works on the list below (which start in 1950). Stockhausen had a rule, in this period, that every composition was, axiomatically, structurally unique. It was like inventing the piano concerto, writing the perfect piano concerto and then never writing another one. _Inori _is so different from _Gruppen _it is almost impossible to believe they are the work of the same man. Likewise _Klavierstück X_ and _Tierkreis_; _Trans _and _Kreuzspiel _and so on. The trouble is that, if by some amazing chance one could come up with a convincing argument that _Kreuzspiel_, say, was a "put on", that would have no bearing on any of the other works since they are all, axiomatically, unique.

And, if the list below is rather long for you, I would make my case for KS being a great composer on the thirty or so works up to and including _Momente _(1964).

Stockhausen's genius is that he is able to create fiercely intellectual masterpieces which also appeal to, and appease, the emotions and the senses. The list below includes some juvenilia and some lighter pieces - and why not? - which widen further Stockhausen's range. But the "big" works, _Gruppen_, _Momente_, _Kontra-punkte_, the _Klavierstucke_, and so on, reveal someone who had the capacity to write groundbreaking music which is innovative and compelling.

It is often said that composers have three "periods" (Beethoven is the _locus classicus_). Sometimes composers' music is forced unconvincingly into these periods. Stockhausen might be said to have three periods (pre-_Licht_, _Licht_, post-_Licht_), but, in truth, the first of these contains at least nine distinct "periods" far more diverse than Beethoven's (or any other composer I can think of). It is a mark of his greatness that he can be writing cerebral post-Webern serialism in 1957 (_Gruppen_), a piece combining aleatoricism with Japanese Noh theatre (_Refrain_) in 1959, and a piece which invented, and defined the ground rules for, the interplay between electronic music and live performers in 1960 (_Kontakte_). It is this huge breadth of imagination - and ability - which pissed off so many (envious) commentators who chose to deride him as a "put on".

_Chöre für Doris _ Choruses for Doris
_Drei Lieder_ Three songs
_Choral _Chorale
_Sonatine _Sonatina
_Kreuzspiel _Cross-play
_Formel _Formula
_Etude _Study
_Spiel _Play
_Schlagtrio _Percussion trio
_Punkte _Points
_Kontra-punkte_ Counter-points
_Klavierstücke I-IV _ Piano pieces I-IV
_Studie I_ Study I
Studie II Study II
_Klavierstücke V-X_ Piano pieces V-X
_Zeitmaße _Time measures
_Gruppen _Groups
_Klavierstück XI_ Piano piece XI 
Gesang der Junglinge Song of the youths
_Zyklus _Cycle
_Carré_
_Refrain_
_Kontakte _Contacts
_Momente _Moments
_Mixtur _Mixture
_Telemusik _
_Adieu_
_Hymnen _Anthems
_Stimmung _Tuning
_Mantra_
_Trans_
_Am Himmel wandre ich…_ In the sky I am walking...
_Ylem_
_Inori _(_Adorations_)
_Atmen gibst das Leben_ Breathing gives life
_Herbstmusik _Autumn music
_Tierkreis _Zodiac
_Harlekin _Harlequin
_Sirius_
_Amour_
_Jubiläum _Jubilee
_In Freundschaft _ In friendship

[I've excluded the intuitive pieces which rely so much on the performers, but they constitute a further "period"]


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

For those of you who are interested, all his works have been recorded and can be obtained from here:

http://www.stockhausencds.com/

I think that these recordings are not available elsewhere. I got my _Montag aus Licht_ from there.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Stockhausen is a composer, of course he is. He writes music, it gets played, he's influenced other musicians, etc etc. The whole notion of "real" as an adjective is nonsensical and "real" is just another code name for "good".

He's a terrible composer, but a composer nonetheless. If I were to make up a video game, and it bears enough family resemblance to various, even if it's a terrible video game, if it gets played and people know about it and you hear about it it's a real video game, even if it's a really bad video game.

There is no "line" between composer and non-composer; it's a continuum, arbitrarily drawn. "half an hour" doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't use the phrase "half an hour". *There are no real circles in nature, that doesn't mean everything is a circle or that nothing is a circle. *

If you write a bunch of pieces but no one listens to them and they don't play it, it's safe to *reckon* that you're a scribbler and don't deserve to esteemed with the title "composer", even if you're called one colloquially.

The question is a pseudo-problem, the result of force of the original meaning of the words having been levelled off into unintelligiblity.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Only one problem with that brianwalker, Stockhausen is a genius! Even better than *Ligeti*


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Only one problem with that brianwalker, Stockhausen is a genius! Even better than *Ligeti*


Nietzsche was a genius too; he wrote really awful music.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I don't think ComposerofAvantGarde would appreciate you insulting *Ligeti*.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Stockhausen is a composer, of course he is. He writes music, it gets played, he's influenced other musicians, etc etc. The whole notion of "real" as an adjective is nonsensical and "real" is just another code name for "good".
> 
> He's a terrible composer, but a composer nonetheless. If I were to make up a video game, and it bears enough family resemblance to various, even if it's a terrible video game, if it gets played and people know about it and you hear about it it's a real video game, even if it's a really bad video game.
> 
> ...


I wonder why Stockhausen was so influential if he was a "terrible composer."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brianwalker said:


> Shouldn't this thread have a poll?
> I mean, dichotomous titles are usually followed by a poll.
> I want a poll.


This is Soooo apt, canny, spot on!. Lol, oh lol. xox


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^Stockhausen _was_ an alien. Get your facts right. He said so himself!


Salvador Dali was a helluva showman, but he could really paint. Simile = Stockhausen.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I wonder if anyone here that would bash Stockhausen has heard Gruppen. That entire piece is one humongous amazing eargasm.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

One would have to be seriously 'put on' to go into the electronics lab, week after week and month after month, for easily one year, like a job, to produce this masterly and lyric Musique concrète / electronic masterpiece:

Gesang der Jünglinge




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesang_der_J%C3%BCnglinge

Almost no one going that far in pursuit of a project is out to 'put you on.' I would let go of that notion, perhaps opening further your mind and ears to the possibility this is completely legitimate music, evidently of some worth


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> I wonder if anyone here that would bash Stockhausen has heard Gruppen. That entire piece is one humongous amazing eargasm.


Jonahthan Harvey's excellent book on KS incudes a comprehensible description of the jaw dropping structure of _Gruppen_. I see there's a s/h copy on sale at amazon.uk - well worth the £12 being asked for it, even if, because it so old, it stops before _Licht_.

And PetrB makes a completely valid point. That said, one has to admit that there are tracts of _Licht _(eg in _Sonntag_) which stretch one's patience - and I have always had reservations about the completely 'intuitive' music (if only because KS was so demanding about what the results of that intuition should be) notwithstanding the beautiful improvisation Caskel, Boje and Eotvos produced of _Japan_.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> I wonder if anyone here that would bash Stockhausen has heard Gruppen. That entire piece is one humongous amazing eargasm.


You can say that again.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Someone once asked Sir Thomas Beecham, the English conductor, "Have you heard any Stockhausen?" Beecham replied, "No but I've trodden in some"

Ok calm down, it's just a funny (true) story.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

violadude said:


> I wonder why Stockhausen was so influential if he was a "terrible composer."


Marx was pretty influential.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Marx was pretty influential.


There's a lot of truth to what Marx said though, even though there hasn't been a practical application of his ideas that have worked yet (so far as I know).

My point was, do you think everyone who was or is influenced by Stockhausen or think Stockhausens music is valid is just a bumbling idiot that doesn't know what they are doing?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

violadude said:


> There's a lot of truth to what Marx said though, even though there hasn't been a practical application of his ideas that have worked yet (so far as I know).
> 
> My point was, do you think everyone who was or is influenced by Stockhausen or think Stockhausens music is valid is just a bumbling idiot that doesn't know what they are doing?


False dichotomies. They're not bumbling idiots, but their music isn't valid either. Talented men can make catastrophic mistakes.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> False dichotomies. They're not bumbling idiots, but their music isn't valid either. Talented men can make catastrophic mistakes.


Why would lots and lots of composers and musicians (who probably know more about music than most people on this forum by the way, including me) think Stockhausen's music was any good if they weren't somehow stupid?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

violadude said:


> Why would lots and lots of composers and musicians (who probably know more about music than most people on this forum by the way, including me) think Stockhausen's music was any good if they weren't somehow stupid?


Sartre was a Stalinist.

People make mistakes, smart, talented, kind hearted people make mistakes.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Sartre was a Stalinist.
> 
> People make mistakes, smart, talented, kind hearted people make mistakes.


Serialism doesn't kill people...


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

violadude said:


> Serialism doesn't kill people...


I said Stockhausen was a terrible composer, not a terrible person.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> I said Stockhausen was a terrible composer, not a terrible person.


My point was it is a silly comparison. People were fooled by Stalin because the USSR lied to everyone about what they were doing, and then everyone found out he likely killed more people than Hitler.

Stockhausen didn't lie to anyone. He made his methods of composition very clear and they are the same today as they were in the 60s. We didn't find out anything new about them, as if he had lied to us. But composers and musicians continue to claim him as a great composer. Do you think you know more than those composers and musicians?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Petwhac said:


> Someone once asked Sir Thomas Beecham, the English conductor, "Have you heard any Stockhausen?" Beecham replied, "No but I've trodden in some"
> 
> Ok calm down, it's just a funny (true) story.


Well I'd guess when he said that, Beecham was at the end of his career, cos that's when Stockhausen was making a name for himself.

Beecham was not a simpleton by any means - although Adrian Boult privately thought that such pronouncements were not very smart on Beecham's behalf, he said Beecham was acting like a clown.

Anyway, Beecham in the early 20th century championed Delius, who was considered by some of the UK establishment as being too modern or whatever. He also resurrected Bizet's _Symphony in C_, one of my favourite symphonies. & he also did things on television to educate people about classical music.

Anyway, back to the topic. I really don't like when people give a quote and not say what they mean, not what eg. Beecham means. I personally find Wagner abhorrent, at least the pseudo science and racialist theories - gross distortions of Enlightenment thinking - that his operas where based on, well at least _Parsifal_, masterpiece of megalomania that it was, can be said to be that. But if I said something like Beecham and replaced Stockhausen with Wagner, all heaven would fall on me here from the Wagner brigade.

Double standards? AGain, again, ad nauseum. _The Neverending Story_ of TC (but the movie was more entertaining). Get real.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I am enjoying some Stockhausen now as I write this reply - my thoughts: It's hard to take Stockhausen seriously. I like Stockhausen the same way I like a Jackson Pollock painting - its beautiful but not crafted with any apparent great skill.
If I am being honest I dont think skill is that important in making beautiful things I can appreciate but I am perhaps old-fashioned enough to think it is something to admire and be respected.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Conor71 said:


> I am enjoying some Stockhausen now as I write this reply - my thoughts: It's hard to take Stockhausen seriously. I like Stockhausen the same way I like a Jackson Pollock painting - its beautiful but *not crafted with any apparent great skill.*
> If I am being honest I dont think skill is that important in making beautiful things I can appreciate but I am perhaps old-fashioned enough to think it is something to admire and be respected.


Are you kidding me?!?!


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Are you kidding me?!?!


He kids you not.

As for Stockhausen being influential, yes he influenced many composers and so what? 
The Sex Pistols were hugely influential in pop music but it doesn't mean you have to like or respect their music. They certainly had no musical skill, in fact that was their main selling point.

As for KS, yes he was an original thinker, yes he tried new things, all very laudable but frankly if I had to sit through that piece for two harps that was posted a couple of pages back, I'd be climbing the walls in no time.

Joking aside.

However he _is_ a proper composer of course and an important one in the history of 20C experimental music. Unfortunately the so called 'avant garde' (which always dates very quickly) is too often a convenient banner for the dilettante and charlatan to march behind.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Are you kidding me?!?!


No mate, I'm not kidding - I'm not saying I think Stockhausen is a bad composer or that he was'nt creative, just saying that he think he perhaps was'nt very skilled at his craft.
I was reading a bit about Gruppen yesterday and I just ordered it tonight so perhaps this piece might change my mind on Stockhausen


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah, because you're honestly flat out wrong!


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Cnote11 said:


> Yeah, because you're honestly flat out wrong!


Yes, it would'nt be the first time! - anyways I will see if Gruppen can convince me, from what I have been reading on it this piece is one of Stockhausens best


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Some people take tonality way too seriously :lol:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

@Conor, I see that you just ordered Gruppen! Before you listen to it, maybe you want to check this out. This is the 6th episode of Sir Simon Rattles great documentary "Leaving Home: Orchestral Music of the 20th century." There is a section about "Gruppen" starting at the 23:26 mark. I urge everyone to watch it actually. Might give some insight


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

View attachment 4542

Have just been listening to Stimmung, my first Stockhausen experience. Liked it.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Petwhac said:


> The Sex Pistols were hugely influential in pop music but it doesn't mean you have to like or respect their music. They certainly had no musical skill, in fact that was their main selling point.


I think it takes some musical skill to write songs like Anarchy in the UK and God Save the Queen that have stood the test of time like they have.



Conor71 said:


> No mate, I'm not kidding - I'm not saying I think Stockhausen is a bad composer or that he was'nt creative, just saying that he think he perhaps was'nt very skilled at his craft.
> I was reading a bit about Gruppen yesterday and I just ordered it tonight so perhaps this piece might change my mind on Stockhausen


Stockhausen was very skilled at his craft, he just chose to write some weird-*** stuff that made it appear that he wasn't skilled at his craft.

Anyway, skill isn't really all that important.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Argus said:


> Stockhausen was very skilled at his craft, he just chose to write some weird-*** stuff that made it appear that he wasn't skilled at his craft.


That's a...good way to put it I suppose.. lol


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

violadude said:


> @Conor, I see that you just ordered Gruppen! Before you listen to it, maybe you want to check this out. This is the 6th episode of Sir Simon Rattles great documentary "Leaving Home: Orchestral Music of the 20th century." There is a section about "Gruppen" starting at the 23:26 mark. I urge everyone to watch it actually. Might give some insight


Thanks mate, I will check it out


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Argus said:


> I think it takes some musical skill to write songs like Anarchy in the UK and God Save the Queen that have stood the test of time like they have.


Good lyrics for the time. Musically not much going on there but that wasn't what it was about huh? Those two songs have entered the annals of pop history for sure, but artists aren't exactly queuing up to cover them.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm sure it's all ingeniously composed somehow, but it's simply too ugly for my ears to be worth my time.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Sid James said:


> But if I said something like Beecham and replaced Stockhausen with Wagner, all heaven would fall on me here from the Wagner brigade.


This quote presumes that Stockhausen is somehow an equal to Wagner.

Stockhausen isn't fit to do Wagner's dirty laundry.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Stockhausen *is* Wagner's dirty laundry.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

By the way Beecham didn't like Bach either. "Too much counterpoint, and what's worse, Protestant counterpoint"


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Stockhausen *is* Wagner's dirty laundry.


Schoenberg is Wagner's dirty laundry.

Stockhausen is the smegma encrusted on the underwear.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Wagner was one healthy man to have such copious and efficient smegma.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Wagner was one healthy man to have such copious and efficient smegma.


He was indeed.

Look at "literary criticism" - the smegma of of great artists.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v21/n24/frank-kermode/writing-about-shakespeare

I'll begin by trying to answer that question. It obviously cannot be that there is a shortage of books about Shakespeare. I pick up a recent volume of Shakespeare Quarterly and find that the bibliography for 1997 contains 4780 items, 342 of which are about Hamlet: almost one a day. What sort of thing do the authors of these items find to say? SQ is a respectable trade paper. Inclusion in its refereed pages is of importance to the careers of the authors; so the contents of a recent issue (Spring 1999) should give a rough idea of what the institution currently approves of. Open it and the first article you find is called 'Mamillius and Gender Polarisation in The Winter's Tale', and the second 'The Bankruptcy of Homoerotic Amity in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice'. This latter was a reduced version of a paper given at the Folger Shakespeare Library, an important centre of Shakespearian studies and the publisher of the Quarterly, as part of a year-long seminar on 'Sexuality, Subjectivity and Representation in Early Modern Literature'. No seminar could have borne that title even twenty years ago; nothing wrong in that, except that one can tell straight away that it appeals to a new cliquish interest; there is a spin on every word in it. Even the innocent-sounding 'amity' acquires one in the course of the paper.


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## martijn (May 4, 2011)

I hope I will never read the word smegma on this forum again.


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Sartre was a Stalinist.


Not a fan of Satre, but he was very anti-Soviet, and regarded the regime as a form of "capitalism"!


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Sator said:


> Not a fan of Satre, but he was very anti-Soviet, and regarded the regime as a form of "capitalism"!


The same perspective of privilege led Simone and Sartre to develop a flawed affinity for the Soviet Union. When questioned by fellow existentialist Albert Camus on how he could possibly reconcile the murder of millions in Soviet gulags, Sartre responded that the camps are no more inadmissible than French colonialism in Africa or the state violence towards French workers. Sartre claimed that "the Iron Curtain is only a mirror, in which half of the world reflects the other. Each turn of the screw here corresponds with a twist there, and finally, both here and there, we are both the screwers and the screwed."

http://ofheartandmind.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/simone-de-beauvoir-talks-the-talk/


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

brianwalker said:


> Schoenberg is Wagner's dirty laundry.
> 
> Stockhausen is the smegma encrusted on the underwear.


Funny how while Wagner's descendants where having dinner with Hitler, Stockhausen's mother was being euthanised by the Nazis (as many psychologically ill people were, they were considered an uneccessary burden for society). & I think his father was killed whilst fighting for Germany in the war.

A number of Schoenberg's relatives died in the Holocaust for the simple fact they were Jewish.

Let's play fun and games and make jokes of these things. This is why many people hate your idol and his music. I am livid at facts like this. I cannot restrain my anger at you now so I will shut up, otherwise I could get banned.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Funny how while Wagner's descendants where having dinner with Hitler, Stockhausen's mother was being euthanised by the Nazis (as many psychologically ill people were, they were considered an uneccessary burden for society). & I think his father was killed whilst fighting for Germany in the war.


How is that funny? HOW IS THE HOLOCAUST FUNNY? How can you find people being euthanized by Nazis humorous? I find it extraordinarily tragic. Maybe Stockhausen's trauma made him write bad music, probably the sublimation of his angst and sorrow.



> A number of Schoenberg's relatives died in the Holocaust for the simple fact they were Jewish.





> Let's play fun and games and make jokes of these things.


I don't think it's funny to joke about the Holocaust.



> This is why many people hate your idol and his music.


No, I'm pretty sure Wagner hates hate Wagner because they have small souls and can't handle his greatness, then they make up excuses.



> I am livid at facts like this. I cannot restrain my anger at you now so I will shut up, otherwise I could get banned.


And I am livid that you deign to joke about the Holocaust.


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

The really great writers on the Holocaust from Hannah Arendt on have always made it their first principle that it should be approached with fairness and justice, not out of an emotionally driven desire for vengeance. Otherwise, you end up sinking to the same level as the National Socialists themselves. To make Wagner the scapegoat of an event that occurred over a half century after his death is hardly justice. Nor is condemning a man because of the stupidity of his family ever justice. I am not saying any more, since I have already spent a huge amount of time putting together lots of expert testimony with endless carefully documented references on this explosive subject on my blog. It is far too emotional an issue to be suitable matter for discussion on an internet discussion forum. You might as well be discussing sex and religion.

As for Stockhausen, I admire him greatly. And, yes, he was a "real" composer. I know because I met him once and heard him direct his own music.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sator said:


> As for Stockhausen, I admire him greatly. And, yes, he was a "real" composer. I know because I met him once and heard him direct his own music.


Did he tell you that he was in fact an alien born on a planet orbiting Sirius and was brought to Earth to save music?


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Did he tell you that he was in fact an alien born on a planet orbiting Sirius and was brought to Earth to save music?


No, but I did tell _him_ that I really admired his music. That was while back now though. Cologne, 1994 to be exact. He was at the controls of his electronic console. I was sitting next to him during the performance and I plucked up the courage to chat to him during the intermission. I got his signature too:










I seriously need to have this thing framed rather than have it sit around gathering dust.

As for some of the comments around Stockhausen and Schoenberg I have read, it really reminds my of why I have largely stopped posting on internet discussion fora. Once upon a time I too was wide eyed with enthusiasm and posted away like crazy.

If you want to see everything you love defiled and spat on, post on internet fora.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sator said:


> No, but I did tell _him_ that I really admired his music. That was while back now though. Cologne, 1994 to be exact. He was at the controls of his electronic console. I was sitting next to him during the performance and I plucked up the courage to chat to him during the intermission. I got his signature too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you manage to see him around again (records say he died in 2007, but he's an alien so you never really know) tell him I said thank you for all of his wonderful music! He has greatly inspired me and is one of the reasons I started composing.


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

Sometimes I curse myself for not saying more. I often think back to that chance meeting with Stockhausen that day all those years ago. I wished I had thanked him for all the wonderful music he has given us, and had sworn to fight for his music and his memory till the day I die. It brings tears to my eyes to think I will sadly never get that chance again. But in my heart I thank him always – a hundred fold, a thousand fold . . .


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> ...And I am livid that you deign to joke about the Holocaust.


I think you'll find that Sid James was being ironic.
Or are you being ironic, too?


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