# Random thoughts and discoveries that don't deserve a whole thread to themselves.



## MagneticGhost

Grieg wrote a cello concerto!!!!
Who knew?


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## Op.123

I didn't..............


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## MagneticGhost

Burroughs said:


> I didn't..............


I know! It's lovely though.
This is as exciting as discovering Saint-Saens Requiem last month


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## ptr

Well, that is a truth with some modification, Grieg wrote a Cello Sonata that someone arranged and orchestrated... Am I a spoiler or what!  

/ptr


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## moody

MagneticGhost said:


> I know! It's lovely though.
> This is as exciting as discovering Saint-Saens Requiem last month


It is ,unfortunately, a beefed-up version of the Op.36 cello sonata.
Sorry---where did that post suddenly spring from !!??


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## Kieran

ptr said:


> Well, that is a truth with some modification, Grieg wrote a Cello Sonata that someone arranged and orchestrated... Am I a spoiler or what!
> 
> /ptr


That deserves a thread of its own!


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## MagneticGhost

Oh. Ta for info. Who beefed it up? It's still very pretty though.


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## ptr

MagneticGhost said:


> Oh. Ta for info. Who beefed it up? It's still very pretty though.


Joseph Horovitz and Benjamin Wallfisch, according to this *CD*










/ptr


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## bigshot

ptr said:


> Well, that is a truth with some modification, Grieg wrote a Cello Sonata that someone arranged and orchestrated...


I don't know why he didn't orchestrate more of his music. The second Peer Gynt suite that Grieg himself orchestrated is much better than the stuff he jobbed out.


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## brianvds

I didn't even know he wrote a cello sonata. Not too clued up about Grieg.

Anyway, I akm still waiting for the discovery of the Mahler guitar concerto, and the Brahms recorder concerto...


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## chrisco97

On another subject...I showed a friend "Rage Over a Lost Penny" by Beethoven...they got so mad at it it was unbelievable. They were jittery all day after that. I did tell them you could feel Beethoven's emotions when you listen to his music though... :lol:


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## joen_cph

A classic among the unknowns: Mahler´s violin concerto

http://inkpot.com/classical/mahvncon.html

premiered back in April 1999 ...


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## Sonata

MagneticGhost said:


> I know! It's lovely though.
> This is as exciting as discovering Saint-Saens Requiem last month


I was very heavy into Requiems two years ago when I started really seriously listening to classical music (still like them, just don't listen as much). I do have and like the Saint-Saens myself.


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## Mahlerian

joen_cph said:


> A classic among the unknowns: Mahler´s violin concerto
> 
> http://inkpot.com/classical/mahvncon.html
> 
> premiered back in April 1999 ...


Yep, and just as authentic as that wonderful Schmidt concerto it's paired with!

(I love the imitation of Mahler's performance directions, though: "zögernd, wie im Winterschnee".)


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## ahammel

Random discovery: Franz Welser-Möst is a stage name. He added the 'Welser-'.


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## Op.123

http://composersarehilarious.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/mahler-violin-concerto/


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## joen_cph

But it´s probably less known that* Debussy* wrote a charming, early piano trio (for real), which people have only recently begun to take up:


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## Ravndal

A week ago i discovered that Scarlatti has composed 550 sonatas for keyboard. It blew me away. 550!

Fun thread btw! Hope it stays alive


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## brianvds

Ravndal said:


> A week ago i discovered that Scarlatti has composed 550 sonatas for keyboard. It blew me away. 550!


Yup, he really turned them out at a rate of a new one every few days, and they are mostly of very high quality too.



> Fun thread btw! Hope it stays alive


Let's see if we can get it up to 550 posts.


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## Op.123

Rimsky-Korsakov and Dvorak wrote piano concertos


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## chrisco97

I recently listened to Beethoven's Symphony No. 6 conducted by Leonard Bernstein and performed by the New York Philharmonic, and discovered I did not enjoy it near as much as the recording I have by the Philharmonic Promenade Orchestra, which I got in the Big Beethoven Box for .99...I found it kind of weird.

Is Leonard Bernstein a good conductor when it comes to Beethoven's symphonies?


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## Mahlerian

He's an idiosyncratic conductor when it comes to anyone's works, Beethoven included. I enjoy his renditions, but wouldn't, perhaps, use them as reference.


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## joen_cph

Is the Beethoven Box conductor Boult, or mentioned at all ? If yes, it´s early Boult, and he was a fine but more conventional conductor too (and the rare orchestra an ensemble of selected London musicians for recording sessions).


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## chrisco97

It is Boult. Thanks for the answers guys. I just thought it was funny considering how much people praise Bernstein that I did not like his near as much as Boult's.


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## Avey

Was Mahler vegetarian?


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## Sonata

My personal discovery: There's a lot of really beautiful music scattered throughout Mozart's minor operas. :clap:


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Was Mahler vegetarian?


On and off. During his college years, he joined the Wagner society, the members of which were pretty fanatical, and followed a lot of his more minor writings (he also joined a socialist group at this point, and had liberal leanings throughout his life). He moved away from the society when the group took an anti-Semitic turn.

Sometimes he would go on a vegetarian diet, but for the majority of his adult life he was not.


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## dstring

Until a week ago I didn't know / remember Schumann wrote a violin concerto. The surpricing part is I'm a violinist.


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## Ravndal

God, I love french music.

Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Chabrier, Faure, Dutilleux, Satie, Francaix etc. 

give me more!!  hehe


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## chrisco97

Found out tonight that at his first public performance, *Saint-Saëns* offered to do an encore of any of Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas from memory...at age ten. Very impressive indeed.


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## starry

chrisco97 said:


> Found out tonight that at his first public performance, *Saint-Saëns* offered to do an encore of any of Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas from memory...at age ten. Very impressive indeed.


Memory is almost like a circus act though isn't it, the kind of thing the child Mozart might do for his audience on his travels before he settled down becoming a composer rather than part of his father's sideshow?


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## Mika

Boy this dude wrote cantatas : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Graupner


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## Selby

MagneticGhost said:


> I know! It's lovely though.
> This is as exciting as discovering Saint-Saens Requiem last month


Lovely isn't it?


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## MagneticGhost

Mitchell said:


> Lovely isn't it?
> 
> View attachment 19695


Yes! Very Lovely indeed.

My discovery of this week is Dyson's Canterbury Pilgrims.









Don't know how he found the time to both compose and invent revolutionary cleaning implements for the home!!


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## MagneticGhost

Schubert wrote more than 8 Impromptus ---- Who Knew.

Actually I can be excused this one. They are more commonly referred to as Klaverstucke D. 946. Still I was mightily excited when I picked up a CD containing 3 Unknown Impromptus. 

It was said when Brahms published them 40 years after they were written that 'these pieces are so intimate one should place them under one's pillow'
Listening Now and they're lovely.


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## chrisco97

Saw this on DeviantART a few days ago and thought it was absolutely brilliant. Could not help but laugh a little. http://fav.me/d55fqud


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## chrisco97

I do not know if this fits this thread or not, but I do not think it needs a whole thread for itself. Anyways, I was curious...are the recordings of Rhapsody in Blue and An American in Paris on this album the same ones found on the Bernstein Century album released by Sony later with Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite? The only differences I notice is the length of the Rhapsody in Blue recording.

*EDIT:* I read on Amazon they are the same recordings, just re-released with the Grand Canyon Suite on _The Bernstein Century_. Thanks anyway.


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## science

My random discovery recently was that Ferde Grofé was once considered in some circles a genuinely legitimate jazz musician. He played with Paul Whiteman.

It just goes to show ya. Just absolutely goes to show ya.


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## Guest

Here's one:

The song "Ebben?...Ne andrò lontana" from Catalani's opera "La Wally" is featured prominently in both the movies "Diva" and "Philadelphia".

That's like New Order or something.


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## jtbell

To cycle around towards the beginning of this thread, who knew Grieg wrote three, count 'em, three violin concertos? 

Actually, they're beefed-up versions of the violin sonatas, arranged by Henning Kraggerud, who has recorded them for Naxos:

http://www.naxos.com/feature/Griegs_Brand_New_Violin_Concertos.asp

I've enjoyed his other recordings of Norwegian music on Naxos, so this one has gone onto my short list for downloading when I finish my current batch of new acquisitions.


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## DavidH

I was quite fascinated to learn this week that the opening of Pergelosi's Stabat Mater strongly reminds me of Bach's b minor Prelude, from the Well Tempered Clavier, Book 1.

Bach's work predates Pergolesi's by 14 years, so I'm pretty sure it's an homage of some kind. Both are such great works.


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## Joris

I was listening to Tristan Und Isolde with Karl Böhm, and my favorite part of the opera 'Tristan! Isolde! Treulose holder!' was played with a lot of vibrato in the singing and the 'Heil! Konig Marke' part was played very fast (in my perception)..I didn't really like it because I'm used to a different recording
Usually I listen to the Barenboim (highlights) recording, where the singing is more 'self-possessed' and in my experience the stately and (for me ecstatic) Heil Konig Marke part is better articulated with the slower tempo. 
The thought (for me discovery) was that I can like a piece just by the performance of it, and not necessarily the composition. Or better formulated: the performance can make something stand out, at least for the subjective listener. 

This is not new, but tonight this idea occured to me for the first time brightly


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## Cosmos

I didn't even know that Wagner wrote two symphonies until yesterday!

Though they aren't amazing. In fact, they're kinda over-the-top. Sounds like he tried to put as much bombastic operatic flare into a 40 minute work (I'm referring to the C Major symphony)


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## Weston

That awkward moment when you get all excited about the nice thick booklet that comes with a new CD, only to discover it's the same two and half pages printed in twelve languages.


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## elgar's ghost

Weston said:


> That awkward moment when you get all excited about the nice thick booklet that comes with a new CD, only to discover it's the same two and half pages printed in twelve languages.


Or that exasperating moment when you wade through a nice booklet of an opera or vocal recording only to discover that the libretto/texts aren't in your language...


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## MagneticGhost

That disappointing moment when you change your Avatar from an attractive Woman Composer to a long dead Man Composer and all your "likes" dry up.


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## science

MagneticGhost said:


> That disappointing moment when you change your Avatar from an attractive Woman Composer to a long dead Man Composer and all your "likes" dry up.


We think they're you.

I should probably make my avatar Bryn Terfel and mack on all the hotties here....


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MagneticGhost said:


> That disappointing moment when you change your Avatar from an attractive Woman Composer to a long dead Man Composer and all your "likes" dry up.


Since I left Che for Cumberbatch I've been getting ~80 (or more) likes a day.


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## Kieran

MagneticGhost said:


> That disappointing moment when you change your Avatar from an attractive Woman Composer to a long dead Man Composer and all your "likes" dry up.


Sorry, but I still haven't forgiven you!


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## Mahlerian

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Since I left Che for Cumberbatch I've been getting ~80 (or more) likes a day.


Well, you don't have any photos of Che brooding. Just that same ol' picture everyone sees on College campus T-shirts.


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## Weston

science said:


> We think they're you.
> 
> I should probably make my avatar Bryn Terfel and mack on all the hotties here....


This is completely true. I catch myself treating crudblud as if he really were Frank Zappa and often take every word as brilliant even though I know consciously that may not always be the case. There were also experiments with Sid James' / Andre's avatars a few years back when he was treated very differently after using a comedian's image. I used to read his posts in a slightly grouchy mental voice (though never annoying) simply because the cat avatar appeared to be having a trying day. Our avatars are important evidently.


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## Weston

Weston said:


> That awkward moment when you get all excited about the nice thick booklet that comes with a new CD, only to discover it's the same two and half pages printed in twelve languages.


While I was trying to be clever and appreciate the "likes," I've actually grown weary of this cliched phrasing "That awkward moment . . . " It's one of those memes that few remember the origin of but everyone copies ad nauseam. From now on I'll try to be just be my own voice and not spew whatever I read on the internet.


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## chrisco97

When you realize how many times you have edited some of your posts to fix little things that would not have mattered...


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## arpeggio

*Alex North 2001*

I recently discovered that great recording of the cues that Alex North composed for _2001_.

There is no way one can top Strauss and Strauss, but some of North's cues were as good as those employed by Kubrick. I particularly enjoy the various Dawn of Man cues.

Unfortunately the excellant Goldsmith recording is out of print. One can still secure a copy throught Amazon. They also have recordings of the acual takes that North conducted.


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## brianvds

Weston said:


> This is completely true. I catch myself treating crudblud as if he really were Frank Zappa and often take every word as brilliant even though I know consciously that may not always be the case. There were also experiments with Sid James' / Andre's avatars a few years back when he was treated very differently after using a comedian's image. I used to read his posts in a slightly grouchy mental voice (though never annoying) simply because the cat avatar appeared to be having a trying day. Our avatars are important evidently.


This is it! I'm changing my avatar to Carl Sagan. I'll get billions and billions of likes.


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## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> This is completely true. I catch myself treating crudblud as if he really were Frank Zappa and often take every word as brilliant even though I know consciously that may not always be the case. There were also experiments with Sid James' / Andre's avatars a few years back when he was treated very differently after using a comedian's image. I used to read his posts in a slightly grouchy mental voice (though never annoying) simply because the cat avatar appeared to be having a trying day. Our avatars are important evidently.


It's true. You've suddenly become a lot more humorous and fun-loving in the past few days!


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## DrKilroy

This is an interesting fact, well, perhaps only for Poles, but you might like that, too.  Stravinsky's great-great-grandfather, Stanisław Strawiński, was an officer of the Bar Confederation (in short: a confederation against Russian influence on Polish politics and Polish king) and he actually kidnapped Polish king Stanisław August Poniatowski!  

Best regards, Dr


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## Guest

Bardzo ciekawy, pan Kilroy!


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## DrKilroy

Dziękuję.  

Polish history is quite interesting a subject, I believe, especially from the 16th century onwards, when kings were being elected by nobility. The period after partitions (mainly 19th century) is also absorbing, though rather complicated. 

If you can find the books by Paweł Jasienica about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, definitely get them! They are a fascinating read.

Best regards, Dr


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## Guest

Ja mieszkawem cztery lata w Gdansku, od 93 do 97 roku. Skad pan jest?


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## DrKilroy

Mieszkam obecnie w Ostrowcu Świętokrzyskim. To niedaleko Kielc, w Małopolsce. 

Pozdrawiam, Dr


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## jim prideaux

DrKilroy said:


> Dziękuję.
> 
> Polish history is quite interesting a subject, I believe, especially from the 16th century onwards, when kings were being elected by nobility. The period after partitions (mainly 19th century) is also absorbing, though rather complicated.
> 
> If you can find the books by Paweł Jasienica about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, definitely get them! They are a fascinating read.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


I know this does not necessarily concern music but felt need to comment. As a graduate in, and until very recently a teacher of History my two lifelong interests funnily enough have been music and History. I can only support your observation regarding the history of Poland and as well, Lithuania. I have a particular interest in 2oth century Poland and regard Norman Davies as one of my favourite historians-I have additionally read anything that can be obtained in the English language that directly concerns Pilsudski. My interest in the history of this area has resulted in countless visits to Warsaw and Cracow and one of my favourite destinations is Vilnius (Wilno)-now that I have given up full time teaching I will no doubt dedicate more time to this interest-the last thing I did in my career which ended last week was to take a party of kids to the fair city of Cracow.


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## Guest

http://theelectricdoomsynthesis.blogspot.com/

Finally getting back into the ole blog and this time it was about something classical related! (ignore old lists, I was a classical noob when I wrote them...and still am!). What do you think?


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## Huilunsoittaja

I discovered today that in Karelia (use to be Finnish territory) there is a little conservatory named after Glazunov! The main reason being, besides his obvious importance in the Russian music world, he wrote Karelian-inspired pieces, so he is their representative. Actually, it's not that little, it's about the same size as my own University's School of Music.

And there's a statue of him there! :O









I want to go to this Glazunov Conservatory, and get my picture on that bench now. :lol:


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## chrisco97

I am not decided yet if this is funny or sad, but I will share it anyways.

As I was playing piano earlier, I decided to play the theme (not the actual piece, just the basic sound of the theme) to _Toccata and Fugue_ by *Bach*. My dog, Pepper, started to whine excessively. I stopped playing, he stopped whining. I started playing again, he started whining excessively again. It was interesting to say the least. I guess he does not like Bach either. :lol:

--
*Here is a picture of Pepper when he was a bit younger than he is now, for those interested:*


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## Op.123

chrisco97 said:


> I am not decided yet if this is funny or sad, but I will share it anyways.
> 
> As I was playing piano earlier, I decided to play the theme (not the actual piece, just the basic sound of the theme) to _Toccata and Fugue_ by *Bach*. My dog, Pepper, started to whine excessively. I stopped playing, he stopped whining. I started playing again, he started whining excessively again. It was interesting to say the least. I guess he does not like Bach either. :lol:
> 
> --
> *Here is a picture of Pepper when he was a bit younger than he is now, for those interested:*


Awwww... how sweet. You have the most adorable puppy, except from mine when she was a puppy, but I would say that, wouldn't I.


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## Weston

chrisco97 said:


> As I was playing piano earlier, I decided to play the theme (not the actual piece, just the basic sound of the theme) to _Toccata and Fugue_ by *Bach*. My dog, Pepper, started to whine excessively. I stopped playing, he stopped whining. I started playing again, he started whining excessively again. It was interesting to say the least. I guess he does not like Bach either. :lol:


He was probably performing a duet with you - the wolf bonding ritual, or whatever it is that makes them howl. In spite of my avatar, I suppose only they know.


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## Feathers

Chrisco97, your dog is so cute! Maybe he's just singing along, or even better, adding in another melodic line. I guess sometimes dogs get tired of just monophonic barking. ^_^


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## isridgewell

I've been listening to some Svetlanov recordings and recently purchased a unique disc.

Elgar Symphony No 2 plus the Sea Pictures (sung in Russian)!

It is a live recording from the 1970s, a bold move to programe these works as there is no obvious British link in the audience or circumstances.

The gem is definitely the Sea Pictures that sound incredible sung in Russian! They are so well received that the encore of the last movement is is included!

Sadly the Symphony No 2 is a wee bit "raw" in places.


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## elgar's ghost

Weston said:


> He was probably performing a duet with you - the wolf bonding ritual, or whatever it is that makes them howl. In spite of my avatar, I suppose only they know.


Ha! reminds me of this:


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## Avey

I was a pre-performance discussion (group setting) with the conductor re *Brahms'* Third Symphony the other day. As he was speaking about the whole Joachim, F-A-E, F-A-F, Schumann situation, he would consistently mention that Johannes was a _bachelor_ and _enjoyed his freedom_, sort of a _young, hip player_, if you will. The comments suggested Johannes liked to throw himself around, sleeping here and there, not caring for any individual person -- an effervescent, night-life bachelor.

But from what I read about him, I don't characterize him like that at all. In fact, I see him drastically different. I get the impression he was a cheery lad in his younger years, but not necessarily sensual and hedonistic. And he remained joyful in his later years, but just internalized it; hence his reputation for a _brusque_ attitude. Anyone have thoughts?


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## stevederekson

joen_cph said:


> A classic among the unknowns: Mahler´s violin concerto
> 
> http://inkpot.com/classical/mahvncon.html
> 
> premiered back in April 1999 ...


I heard this was an April Fool's joke.


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## hpowders

Avey said:


> I was a pre-performance discussion (group setting) with the conductor re *Brahms'* Third Symphony the other day. As he was speaking about the whole Joachim, F-A-E, F-A-F, Schumann situation, he would consistently mention that Johannes was a _bachelor_ and _enjoyed his freedom_, sort of a _young, hip player_, if you will. The comments suggested Johannes liked to throw himself around, sleeping here and there, not caring for any individual person -- an effervescent, night-life bachelor.
> 
> But from what I read about him, I don't characterize him like that at all. In fact, I see him drastically different. I get the impression he was a cheery lad in his younger years, but not necessarily sensual and hedonistic. And he remained joyful in his later years, but just internalized it; hence his reputation for a _brusque_ attitude. Anyone have thoughts?


I read that Brahms frequented prostitutes. Joyful? Listen to his late piano pieces and 4th symphony. Anything but joyful. Brahms seemed to be a lonely, unhappy man in his last years.


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## Ingélou

I always thought that Brahms didn't marry & had lots of 'lighter' girlfriends because he met Clara Schumann at a young & impressionable age, and nobody could really replace her. It's the romantic in me, I suppose.


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## PetrB

Ingélou said:


> I always thought that Brahms didn't marry & had lots of 'lighter' girlfriends because he met Clara Schumann at a young & impressionable age, and nobody could really replace her. It's the romantic in me, I suppose.


Spot on. He never really 'got over her,' though I think I recall she even wrote him to find another someone (other than Clara) for himself....
I'm sure Ziggy would have something to say about his not, i.e. keeping Clara in his heart and mind as a means for avoidance of having any real relationships at all. Now that _is_ truly 'romantic' in tune with the sentiments of the era ~ an unrequited love you carry with you for a lifetime


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## Lunasong

I'm still thinking about what I missed last weekend. I bought a ticket to hear Gandolfi's _Garden of Cosmic Speculation_ (2009), but bad weather the previous week had canceled some orchestra rehearsals and the program substituted Beethoven Sym No. 1.

I was really looking forward to hearing the new piece.

This week's program: a Rockin' Orchestra concert backing a tribute band on Rolling Stones music tonight and Haydn/Mozart tomorrow. *sigh*


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## Weston

The CD of that Gandolfi piece ^ is good, but I'm finding his _Q.E.D.: Engaging Richard Feynman_ more interesting. I understand _Garden of Cosmic Speculation_ could be a different version each time it is played.


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## Lunasong

Yes, the program lists 13 movements of which the music director's program notes states he had selected seven. The composer Gandolfi invites performers to choose their own way through the piece. One can pick the movements to play, and play them in any order desired. A bit of a difference from composers who want the performers to play every single note exactly as written!


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## spradlig

I didn't. Is it good?



MagneticGhost said:


> Grieg wrote a cello concerto!!!!
> Who knew?


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## spradlig

Dvorak's is fairly well-known but I had never heard of Rimsky-Korsakov's. Thanks.



Burroughs said:


> Rimsky-Korsakov and Dvorak wrote piano concertos


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## KenOC

spradlig said:


> I didn't. Is it good?


I believe Grieg's "Cello Concerto" is an orchestral arrangement of his Cello Sonata. Somebody can correct me if this is wrong...


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## Richannes Wrahms

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I discovered today that in Karelia (use to be Finnish territory) there is a little conservatory named after Glazunov! The main reason being, besides his obvious importance in the Russian music world, he wrote Karelian-inspired pieces, so he is their representative.


Obvious importance: creating the composing machine known as 1906-Shostakovich with automatic harmony and imitation.
Sibelius did a better job with Karelia for obvious reasons. I have no idea about the political mess but as the public image of Russia goes downhill...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

My favourite recording of Smetana's Má Vlast is by Inbal and the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra.


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## ptr

KenOC said:


> I believe Grieg's "Cello Concerto" is an orchestral arrangement of his Cello Sonata. Somebody can correct me if this is wrong...


You are correct Sir! Think I wrote this earlier in this thread or in a similar one!

/ptr


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## ptr

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My favourite recording of Smetana's Má Vlast is by Inbal and the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra.


Then Young Padawan, You really need to explore further recordings, Kubelik (Supraphon live from his return to Prague 1990 since more or less WWII), Talich, Dorati & Ančerl are all vastly better masters then that amateur Inbal! For me, I don't think that any recording betters the live Kubelik on pure emotion! 

/ptr


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## spradlig

The middle movement (Adagio?) of Ravel's Concerto in G begins with the piano playing alone, notes in groups of 3 in the left hand. This seems to establish triple meter. When the right hand enters with the melody, most of the notes in the right hand are twice as long as those in the left, so the melody sounds "syncopated", if that is the right word. For a long time, I thought the entire movement was in the triple meter established by the left hand in the beginning.

When I got the sheet music, I discovered that the movement is in 3/4 time, and the beginning notes played by the left hand are eighth notes (in groups of three). However, no matter how many times I hear the movement, or play a piano reduction on the piano (which begins with a lengthy piano solo taken verbatim from the concerto), it still sounds to me like the groups of three eighth notes are the "real" beats, and the movement is "really" in 3/8 time.

My question is, is it possible to hear the movement so that the 3/4 meter makes sense and one is not "fooled" by the left hand, or is Ravel's 3/4 time notation just a trick?


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## GiulioCesare

Festival of modern classical music in my town these two weeks. Gotta love Germany.


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## hpowders

The Lucerne Festival will never be the same without Claudio Abbado's presence.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ptr said:


> Then Young Padawan, You really need to explore further recordings, Kubelik (Supraphon live from his return to Prague 1990 since more or less WWII), Talich, Dorati & Ančerl are all vastly better masters then that amateur Inbal! For me, I don't think that any recording betters the live Kubelik on pure emotion!
> 
> /ptr


Ha, I've heard that Kubelik one. Inbal is underrated.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Random thought: Boulez's music is just improvised Webern under french titles and "exotic" instruments (nothing wrong with that), yet he still has the "innovation" bias towards many composers.

Discoveries: the music of Jean Françaix, another one who enters the category "too nice to be great but certainly worth listening"


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## DrKilroy

Notice how long it is. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Taggart

DrKilroy said:


> Benny Hiil Theme
> 
> Notice how long it is.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


To quote wiki



> The most common running gag in Benny Hill's shows was the closing sequence, The "run-off", which was literally a running gag in that it featured various members of the cast chasing Hill as part of the chase, along with other stock comedy characters, such as policemen, vicars, old ladies, and so on. This was commonly filmed using 'under-cranking' camera techniques, and included other comic devices such as characters running off one side of the screen and reappearing running on from the other. The tune used in all the chases, Boots Randolph's "Yakety Sax", is so strongly associated to the show that it is commonly referred to as "The Benny Hill Theme".


A version without the chase is like fish without the chips!


----------



## maestro267

I discovered recently that Elgar's 2nd Symphony is occasionally (rarely) performed with an organ part, in the finale. I haven't heard it done like this, but I imagine I'd quite like it. I love when composers include organ in their orchestral works, even if it's just the pedals. It adds extra power to important moments.


----------



## kangxi

THere's a photo floating around the web of a very early photograph of some elderly people. One of them said to be Mozart's wife.

Another oddity: there's a very early recording (cylinder I suppose) capturing the voice of Brahms. He says (in English, with a rather high-pitched voice) "My name is Brahms. Doctor Johannes Brahms."

Unless they're out & out modern frauds I don't suppose we'll ever be sure they're genuine.


----------



## Weston

I've heard the Brahms cylinder or one like it. Actually I recall one I thought was in German, but it's next to impossible to make out what is said either way. It's an eerie feeling to hear a voice from history, but on the other hand it was nothing like the way I imagined Brahms would have sounded based on his -- physical presence, let's say.

I remember a similar let down when seeing a film of H. G. Wells give a speech. Growing up I thought of Wells as being this Victorian gentleman forever lost in the mythic mists of time, forgetting that he lived until only a decade before I was born. In the film he has a meek mousy voice and seems very uncomfortable with himself. Though he comes across as a very likeable fellow, it's quite icon shattering.


----------



## Ingélou

Yes, there are wax cylinders of Tennyson reading his own poetry - obviously as a very doddery old man of ninety or so. It is interesting that he 'chants' the verse - a fascinating insight into Victorian habits - but it sounds really weird, and I remember being similarly disappointed.


----------



## moody

KenOC said:


> I believe Grieg's "Cello Concerto" is an orchestral arrangement of his Cello Sonata. Somebody can correct me if this is wrong...


No,you're quite right.


----------



## moody

Ingélou said:


> Yes, there are wax cylinders of Tennyson reading his own poetry - obviously as a very doddery old man of ninety or so. It is interesting that he 'chants' the verse - a fascinating insight into Victorian habits - but it sounds really weird, and I remember being similarly disappointed.


You should go along to the Mechanical Music Museum and Bygones,Cotton nr. Stowmarket.


----------



## Ingélou

moody said:


> You should go along to the Mechanical Music Museum and Bygones,Cotton nr. Stowmarket.


That sounds interesting - Taggart & I must try it in the better weather. Thanks, moody! :tiphat:


----------



## Weston

After listening to classical music for over four decades I'm finding bits and pieces of themes floating around in my head I can't place. Not the beginnings of pieces, just random stuff lifted out of the middle of something I know I've heard several times, but the context is missing. These are not exactly earworms. I can shut them off. I just get curious where they are from. It's kind of fun to try finding the pieces, but I could surely waste a lot of time with that!

It's not so bad with non-classical or rock music when each group has its own distinctive sound, but for some reason the difference in classical timbres is a lot more subtle, so I don't have that to go on.

Currently I_ think_ the bit I'm hearing in my head is something lifted out of the middle of Respighi's Ancient Airs and Dances, but I could be wrong. I'll resist trying to find out.


----------



## maestro267

Lately, a lot of my discoveries have revolved around spotting recurring themes in multi-movement works. Like right now, I'm listening to Gliére's 3rd Symphony, and a theme heard in the first movt. of this massive work pops up again in all 3 subsequent movements. In fact, there are several ideas shared between at least two movements. It's a remarkable work (in the great tradition of Tchaikovsky's Manfred, with which it shares the same key), that should be heard more often.


----------



## DrKilroy

What's up with this version of the Cuban Overture? It is much better than the usually recorded score.






Best regards, Dr


----------



## Weston

maestro267 said:


> Lately, a lot of my discoveries have revolved around spotting recurring themes in multi-movement works. Like right now, I'm listening to Gliére's 3rd Symphony, and a theme heard in the first movt. of this massive work pops up again in all 3 subsequent movements. . . .


For some reason that sort of thing thrills me more than anything else in music. I think of it as musical acrobatics. When it's hard to spot, that makes it all the more wonderful. Sometimes there are pieces I've listened to for years, then all of a sudden notice this recurrence of a theme or phrase or even a motif.


----------



## quack

Random thought or discovery #834:

Carlos Kleiber thought of himself as the reincarnation of Emily Dickinson's dog named Carlo.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&q=carlos kleiber emily dickinson dog&f=false


----------



## maestro267

Weston said:


> For some reason that sort of thing thrills me more than anything else in music. I think of it as musical acrobatics. When it's hard to spot, that makes it all the more wonderful. Sometimes there are pieces I've listened to for years, then all of a sudden notice this recurrence of a theme or phrase or even a motif.


I'm exactly the same. Tchaikovsky's 5th was the first symphony I ever heard, but it wasn't until about 5 years later (maybe 2 years ago now), that I realised the trumpet fanfare near the end of the finale is a major-key version of the first movement's main Allegro theme. Just, wow!

Another recent "recurring theme" discovery for me (thanks to a poster on this forum, in its Saturday Symphonies thread) was the chorale near the end of the scherzo of Rachmaninov 2 coming back to crown the symphony's final bars.


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## Cosmos

Sibelius wrote a piano sonata! And it's not very interesting IMO! But it's got some pretty moments!


----------



## hpowders

So does my grandmother.


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## senza sordino

I like to take lots of photos when I travel. And when I return, I like to make movies by setting my still photos to music as a slide show burned to a DVD. 

So now whenever I hear these pieces I always think of images from

Pomp and Circumstance #4 and London
Ravel's Piano Concerto in G and Paris
Pines of Rome and Rome
Mahler Symphony #4 and Switzerland
Beethoven's final of Symphony #5 and Berlin
Pictures at an Exhibition and Moscow
Swan Lake and St Petersburg
Holberg Suite and Norway
Rhapsody in Blue and New York


----------



## hpowders

I would add Charles Ives Concord piano sonata and Massachusetts, USA.


----------



## Weston

Do we have a pronunciation thread? Maybe there should be one, though I'm sure it could stir up some divisive opinions. Wikipedia and other web sources often don't offer help with pronunciation except by the little sound file icon, but that's not always present.

I'd like to know the real pronunciation of Poulenc. 

And Berwald. And Zdenek (or Zedenko) Fibich. And Gottschalk. And Gérard Grisey. And Charles Koechlin. And -- lots of stuff. Not listening to classical radio for several years has it's drawbacks, not that many of these would be played on the radio very often.


----------



## hpowders

I have a French neighbor. No matter how I would pronounce Poulenc, she would be rolling on the floor laughing.

I used to date a Swedish gal. Her name was Agnetta. I could never pronounce her name to her satisfaction.


----------



## Rhythm

Weston said:


> ... I'd like to know the real pronunciation of Poulenc. ...


Oh, I love to look up stuff online, sometimes just to see what I can't find! Which is a lot, really.

The wish was my command-here's a pronunciation of Poulenc. Hope the wmp mp3 is to your liking


----------



## Ingélou

hpowders said:


> I have a French neighbor. No matter how I would pronounce Poulenc, she would be rolling on the floor laughing.
> 
> I used to date a Swedish gal. Her name was Agnetta. I could never pronounce her name to her satisfaction.


Reminds me of a game I used to play with my Chinese friends at university. One of them would leave the room, while another wrote a Chinese character on the steamed up window. I copied it. Then we called in again the one who'd gone out, and asked her to identify which character was mine. Cue collapse of Chinese girls onto floor, laughing like drains. 

A propos of which, there doesn't seem to be enough 'serious' Chinese music on YouTube. When you google Chinese traditional music, there are lots of links with cutesy Oriental girls singing, or jaunty stringed instruments playing fortune-cookie tunes. It would be nice to be able to find something properly 'art' or 'classical'...


----------



## Piwikiwi

Rhythm said:


> Oh, I love to look up stuff online, sometimes just to see what I can't find! Which is a lot, really.
> 
> The wish was my command-here's a pronunciation of Poulenc. Hope the wmp mp3 is to your liking


Wohoo I pronounce it correctly


----------



## hpowders

Ingélou said:


> Reminds me of a game I used to play with my Chinese friends at university. One of them would leave the room, while another wrote a Chinese character on the steamed up window. I copied it. Then we called in again the one who'd gone out, and asked her to identify which character was mine. Cue collapse of Chinese girls onto floor, laughing like drains.
> 
> A propos of which, there doesn't seem to be enough 'serious' Chinese music on YouTube. When you google Chinese traditional music, there are lots of links with cutesy Oriental girls singing, or jaunty stringed instruments playing fortune-cookie tunes. It would be nice to be able to find something properly 'art' or 'classical'...


Those characters can be really difficult. You would swear you wrote it correctly and I would swear I pronounced my ex's name correctly. You know, she would say her name and I would repeat the exact same thing, yet according to her I wasn't even close. It's the accent.


----------



## quack

Ingélou said:


> A propos of which, there doesn't seem to be enough 'serious' Chinese music on YouTube. When you google Chinese traditional music, there are lots of links with cutesy Oriental girls singing, or jaunty stringed instruments playing fortune-cookie tunes. It would be nice to be able to find something properly 'art' or 'classical'...


Hmm not sure what you regard as fortune cookie music but I think the music is there, just pop acts are usually the ones thrown out in searches. A good tip is to search for individual instruments, ehru, guzheng, pipa, dizi, etc and many of the variants of spelling and form.

Here is a channel of erhu music






Some others:









Here is a set of Chinese opera CDs originally on Marco Polo that I have been listening to recently:


----------



## Ingélou

Thank you, quack - good advice, and the links look very interesting (I love Chinese opera). :tiphat:


----------



## Mahlerian

Ingélou said:


> Reminds me of a game I used to play with my Chinese friends at university. One of them would leave the room, while another wrote a Chinese character on the steamed up window. I copied it. Then we called in again the one who'd gone out, and asked her to identify which character was mine. Cue collapse of Chinese girls onto floor, laughing like drains.


There's a specific order in which to write the individual strokes of a character, and if you don't follow it, it's relatively obvious from the way you compose it.


----------



## Eschbeg

Weston said:


> Charles Koechlin


By standard French pronunciation, "Koechlin" would be pronounced _something_ like "KUHKH-lan," with the "-lan" approximately rhyming with "man." But Koechlin is said to have pronounced his name idiosyncratically (sort of the same way some Tamaras are "tuh-MAR-uh" while others are "TAM-er-uh") as "CAYKH-lan."


----------



## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> There's a specific order in which to write the individual strokes of a character, and if you don't follow it, it's relatively obvious from the way you compose it.


And you'd better not be left-handed! Traditionally, there are no left-handers in China. It's not allowed. Things may be different today (or not).


----------



## hpowders

Ingélou said:


> Thank you, quack - good advice, and the links look very interesting (I love Chinese opera). :tiphat:


Sorry, but I can't seem to stop laughing.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I just discovered a new past time. Typing in _Глазунов _into the Google search instead of _Glazunov_.

!!!

I stumbled across a few Russian websites dedicated to his family! Translating the information, I learned a ton about his family, the Glazunov book publishing firm. I even found pictures of his other relatives (they even look like him haha)! Also cute things about himself. He had a favorite secret spot in the Gatchina (Palace) District that he would escape to for much of his life (even during the USSR years), renting a small apartment-cottage there to compose and what-not (). He had a beloved cat named Miguzanom who he held in his arms while walking around a certain small pond there. Yes... I can totally imagine Glazunov being a cat person... I now have a new tourist spot for me to go and see when I go to St. Petersburg...

I also found this picture:










Now a new mystery! Who is she?? She's not Elena Gavrilova (his later adopted daughter) because the age of this photograph is way before that. Perhaps a niece? Or just a favorite student? lol


----------



## Taggart

The name I'm getting from this is: Irene Alexeevna Goriainoff or Irene Eneri (her stage name). Hopefully, the biography in the link may help you decide if the attribution is correct.

Here's another picture which is labelled as her with the same top knot \ ribbon:


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Taggart said:


> The name I'm getting from this is: Irene Alexeevna Goriainoff or Irene Eneri (her stage name). Hopefully, the biography in the link may help you decide if the attribution is correct.


Aha! This makes perfect sense now! I was trying to think up what Glazunov's acquaintance could have come from, and reading her biography had the clues. He never taught piano, however, he did something else very important for the St. Petersburg Conservatory. My guess is that picture was taken just after he had become the Director, perhaps 1906-07, when she would be 9 or 10 years old. Although he didn't teach her, he did something just as important: _he admitted her._ His was responsible for the admission of every single musician who walked through the Conservatory's doors, and he had a knack for finding prodigies. Glazunov "discovered" and admitted many young prodigies, besides the famous ones Prokofiev and Shostakovich. No doubt the picture was taken in honor of him, and I can even imagine what could have been the pithy message within the picture (if I may indulge ):
"Irene Goriainoff the young piano prodigy grew by leaps and bounds under the _watchful_ eye of the magnanimous Conservatory Director who monitored her progress, yada yada yada..."

Literally.  :lol:


----------



## senza sordino

Is it me or does anyone else have this problem? I can never remove a cd from its jewel case without difficultly. Particularly bad are the double sided double decker 2 cd cases. I pull and pull but I'm always afraid I'll bend or shatter the cd. I've even resorted to breaking the teeth with pliers. 

On purpose, I once did shatter an old used cd. It does take some effort, and it shattered in spectacular fashion all over the carpet.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

senza sordino said:


> Is it me or does anyone else have this problem? I can never remove a cd from its jewel case without difficultly. Particularly bad are the double sided double decker 2 cd cases. I pull and pull but I'm always afraid I'll bend or shatter the cd. I've even resorted to breaking the teeth with pliers.
> 
> On purpose, I once did shatter an old used cd. It does take some effort, and it shattered in spectacular fashion all over the carpet.


You know what causes that? When the CDs are being created too quickly in the factory, and the plastic is still very hot from the molding, it will stick together. Not much you can do about it, unfortunately.


----------



## KenOC

You can usually remove the CD easily if, while prying up on one edge as normal, you use your thumb to push the locking tabs in the center hole, the ones on the same side you're prying, in toward the middle.


----------



## Itullian

senza sordino said:


> Is it me or does anyone else have this problem? I can never remove a cd from its jewel case without difficultly. Particularly bad are the double sided double decker 2 cd cases. I pull and pull but I'm always afraid I'll bend or shatter the cd. I've even resorted to breaking the teeth with pliers.
> 
> On purpose, I once did shatter an old used cd. It does take some effort, and it shattered in spectacular fashion all over the carpet.


I haven't had a problem with that so far.
Do you press down on the middle of the teeth circle?
That usually helps me.


----------



## hpowders

At least you know nobody else could have played it before you, and you just know what a rush there would be from the general public to hurry up and get that Bartok CD case open if they got their hands on it!!! That's why the company keeps it so tightly shut.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Oh dear! I feel like such a fan girl right now!!  I'm finding all this stuff I've never known about Glazunov! People are posting more and more things on the internet too, I guess. I found one particularly intriguing quote on a website...

_Once biased to strong drinks, Glazunov conducted the First Symphony young Sergei Rachmaninoff being very tipsy (which, however, no one in the audience did not notice). The Symphony, however, failed miserably, because it was too unusual and difficult for the public.
Learning that the young composer is extremely distressed by failure and even willing to lose faith in their talent, Glazunov said:
- "Oh, my God, what a youth gone shaky! Well, tell him it's all due to me. Nothing is worse than when the conductor is drunk and cheerful, and the audience sober and serious ... It would be better the other way around."_

Interesting, no? He did not criticize Rachmaninoff's talent at all actually, contrary to popular belief.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I don't know how much of this is from Debussy's own hand, yet I wonder if it would have surpassed Pelléas et Mélisande.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Jean Baptiste Lully - the poster boy of French baroque was born to Italian parents in Florence and named Giovanni Battista Lulli, before moving to France at a young age.

Well it was news to me!!


----------



## Taggart

MagneticGhost said:


> Jean Baptiste Lully - the poster boy of French baroque was born to Italian parents in Florence and named Giovanni Battista Lulli, before moving to France at a young age.
> 
> Well it was news to me!!


We watched 'Le Roi Danse' last night - all about Lully - and noted that he was asked to avoid any "Italian behaviour". The film made it clear that Lully longed for French citizenship.


----------



## Ingélou

And quite right too!  The Wiki article on Lully begins - 
*Jean-Baptiste Lully... born Giovanni Battista Lulli; 28 November 1632 - 22 March 1687) was a Florentine-born French composer who spent most of his life working in the court of Louis XIV of France. He is considered the chief master of the French baroque style. Lully disavowed any Italian influence in French music of the period. He became a French subject in 1661.*

So it isn't just a political choice on Lully's part but a stylistic one as well. If it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Lully belongs in our poll of French composers, and he *is* in our poll.


----------



## quack

I feel obliged to point out that the so called "duck test" was a formula that was primarily used to falsely accuse people of being communists. It seems to be deliberately wrong because, not only ducks but also geese, and to a certain extent swans, share similar habits, morphology and communication strategies as any precocious 8-year-old could probably tell you.


----------



## Selby

senza sordino said:


> Is it me or does anyone else have this problem? I can never remove a cd from its jewel case without difficultly. Particularly bad are the double sided double decker 2 cd cases. I pull and pull but I'm always afraid I'll bend or shatter the cd. I've even resorted to breaking the teeth with pliers.
> 
> On purpose, I once did shatter an old used cd. It does take some effort, and it shattered in spectacular fashion all over the carpet.


What's a cd? Is that like an old iPod?


----------



## senza sordino

Mitchell said:


> What's a cd? Is that like an old iPod?


It's an iPod for old people. An LP is a CD for even older people.


----------



## senza sordino

I'm listening to Bach's Orchestral Suites right now. In the liner notes each suite is for strings, flute, oboe, bassoon etc and b.c. What is b.c.? I don't think it's a province, or the time before Christ. I think it's an instrument, but what?


----------



## KenOC

senza sordino said:


> I'm listening to Bach's Orchestral Suites right now. In the liner notes each suite is for strings, flute, oboe, bassoon etc and b.c. What is b.c.? I don't think it's a province, or the time before Christ. I think it's an instrument, but what?


Believe that's basso continuo. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basso_continuo#Basso_continuo


----------



## senza sordino

KenOC said:


> Believe that's basso continuo. See:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basso_continuo#Basso_continuo


Thank-you, that's what I thought but each suite has a different sound, the harpsichord isn't always there, or audible. That is what confused me. So according to Wikipedia, it's at the discretion of the performers. So it might be double bass, harpsichord, cello etc.


----------



## Weston

It just occurred to me my collection is missing many of the most famous pieces because they only appear in _The Universe's Most Relaxing Classical Hits_ and _LaserLight's 900 Must Have Classical Melodies for Smoking Cessation (A Subliminal Journey)_.

How does one obtain a credible copy of:

Borodin - Polovetsian Dances; In the Steppes of Central Asia
Debussy - Claire de Lune; Reverie; Syrinx
Dukas - The Sorcerer's Apprentice
Faure - Apres Un Reve
Massenet - Meditation from Thais 
Offenbach - Tales of Hoffman: Barcarolle 
Puccini - Chrysanthemums; Madame Butterfly Humming Chorus 
Rossini - William Tell Overture
Tchaikovsky - Andante Cantabile
?


----------



## senza sordino

I have a nice version without the singing of Polovetsian Danses. And on the same disk In the Steppes of Central Asia
My cover is different, but this is my CD
View attachment 39655

And I recently bought Bernstein NY Phil Strings, with Tchaikovsky Andante Cantabile
View attachment 39656


My Nigel Kennedy disk has the Meditation from Thais. The disk is called "Classic Kennedy"
I have a two disk set of Bizet orchestra, Chabrier, and the Dukas. It's a DG mix of conductors and orchestras.


----------



## senza sordino

I am missing Brahms Tragic Overture from my collection. This is tragic indeed.


----------



## Weston

I suppose I could invest in another Borodin Symphony 2 to get the filler pieces, but I don't recall it making that big an impression. That's one minor issue with classical as a genre. With pop or rock from the late 60s onward the album itself was a self contained work and not until the digital age did we require multiple versions of single work.


----------



## hpowders

I'm working my way through Schoenberg's Piano Concerto and find it haunting in parts, especially the first movement.


----------



## Emrys

Hello! I'm not brave enough to start a new thread about such a nuisance, but I thought I could ask here? A colleague of mine, who seems to exceedingly like operas where female lead kills herself, yesterday said Schubert's "Ave Maria" (you know, that Storck's translation of part of Sir Walter Scott's poem) is a gregorian chant. That made me feel a little uneasy, and I found I really don't know what those gregorian chant characteristics are and do they apply to that fine little example of german Lied, as I previously believed that song to be? Can you clarify these things a little for stupid uneducated me?

Also the thing that reminded me of "Ave Maria" was that cute "Casta Diva" aria we were listening to at work that day. And again my colleage said I'm insane and no, the beginning of that aria and that song have nothing resembling each other(( Are my ears deceiving me in this, or what?((

Any answer would be much appreciated.


----------



## Weston

Emrys said:


> Hello! I'm not brave enough to start a new thread about such a nuisance, but I thought I could ask here? A colleague of mine, who seems to exceedingly like operas where female lead kills herself, yesterday said Schubert's "Ave Maria" (you know, that Storck's translation of part of Sir Walter Scott's poem) is a gregorian chant. That made me feel a little uneasy, and I found I really don't know what those gregorian chant characteristics are and do they apply to that fine little example of german Lied, as I previously believed that song to be? Can you clarify these things a little for stupid uneducated me?
> 
> Also the thing that reminded me of "Ave Maria" was that cute "Casta Diva" aria we were listening to at work that day. And again my colleage said I'm insane and no, the beginning of that aria and that song have nothing resembling each other(( Are my ears deceiving me in this, or what?((
> 
> Any answer would be much appreciated.


I don't know the answer but I love it when I discover similarities as you describe. Bumping the thread as a way of welcome.


----------



## Emrys

Weston said:


> I don't know the answer but I love it when I discover similarities as you describe. Bumping the thread as a way of welcome.


Now you'd probably rejoice in knowing we listened today to the beautiful but disquieting "Romance" from Sviridov's The Blizzard. And i've found that those violins inexplicably remind me of "The rains of Castamere" (version where someone on youtube has arranged that for a string quartet). Dunno how my ears work, i just have no idea))


----------



## senza sordino

I am wondering about the following: Can you get a degree in music from a university that isn't for performance, composition, or teaching? Is there enough to study in music to make a degree without performance, composition or teaching? 

I am only wondering. I am not interested in persuing a second degree this late in life. Who knows once I retire, but for now I am just curious.


----------



## Taggart

Sounds a bit like Art History.

Trouble is, although you can do the history, you need a lot more theory to make any sense of it. How can you study Bach without studying counterpoint as well? How do you compare Bach to Buxtehude as organists and composers without an understanding of the (different) tunings they used and the limitations that imposed and that goes into all sorts of theories about harmonics and mean tunings.

Having said that, the Open University does offer some music courses as part of a general Arts degree - although not a full degree in itself. The link points out that they are developing a new module (course) "which will introduce students to ways of investigating what music says and does through study of a range of musical genres and practices. This module will explore how music expresses meanings, on the one hand, and how it shapes and is shaped by its social contexts, on the other." Looks like it could be just what you want.


----------



## Varick

Weston said:


> Do we have a pronunciation thread?


This post reminded me of one of my biggest pet peaves. There is no such thing as a "flautist." It is spelled and pronounced FLUTIST. One does not play a flaut, they play a flute.

I don't know where this comes from other than a guess. In Italian the word flute is flauta (sp?). But in English, it is only flutist.

The "National Flute Association's" motto is _"Inspiring *Flutists*, Enriching Lives."_ Notice how they do not inspire "Flautists."

Thank you, I feel better now that's off my chest. Carry on.

V


----------



## Selby

Can anyone clarify how Arvo Pärt's last name should be pronounced?


----------



## KenOC

Selby said:


> Can anyone clarify how Arvo Pärt's last name should be pronounced?


Per Wiki, "ˈpært". I'm not sure that helps a lot!

Perhaps he's a real pærty animal?


----------



## Weston

This link might help:

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2013/03/music-to-my-ears-5-composers-and-how-to-pronounce-them/

But how can you pronounce the "ä" like the "a" in cat and then follow it with an "r.?" Maybe if I were from Maine it would come more naturally. Sorry, I'm too lazy for that. I'll stick with "part."


----------



## Cosmos

Two recent things:
First, a rendition of Bach's famous Chaconne for violin and..._chorus?!?!_




Makes it much more funerally if you ask me

Second, while picking up some random CD's at the library, I found a Mozart opera I've never heard of nor seen anyone on this forum bring up: Il Re Pastore (the Shepherd King[?])









From what I've listened to so far, it's a very delightful work


----------



## hreichgott

Weston said:


> This link might help:
> 
> http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2013/03/music-to-my-ears-5-composers-and-how-to-pronounce-them/
> 
> But how can you pronounce the "ä" like the "a" in cat and then follow it with an "r.?" Maybe if I were from Maine it would come more naturally. Sorry, I'm too lazy for that. I'll stick with "part."


Surely you have pears in Tennessee? 
(If you serve two of them to people who don't like the skin, you'd have to pare a pair of pears)

Edit: Sorry Weston, completely misunderstood your post, but I'm leaving my stupid pear joke...


----------



## Piwikiwi

senza sordino said:


> I am wondering about the following: Can you get a degree in music from a university that isn't for performance, composition, or teaching? Is there enough to study in music to make a degree without performance, composition or teaching?
> 
> I am only wondering. I am not interested in persuing a second degree this late in life. Who knows once I retire, but for now I am just curious.


Yes, you can study musicology. You will need to study a lot of music theory if you plan to day that.


----------



## senza sordino

I was in London Drugs today and I bought razors and cookies. I mean this store has everything! Anyway.......

They have a new collection of LPs, new releases. But they only sold turntables with a USB port. So I got to thinking, how are people listening to these LPs? Are people playing the LP and recording the music onto their iPod, or playing through their computer? In both cases the analogue music is now converted to digital and then reconverted to analogue for the speakers. What's the point of that? 

If you buy an LP wouldn't you want to just play it on a decent analogue stereo?


----------



## GioCar

senza sordino said:


> I was in London Drugs today and I bought razors and cookies. I mean this store has everything! Anyway.......
> 
> They have a new collection of LPs, new releases. But they only sold turntables with a USB port. So I got to thinking, how are people listening to these LPs? Are people playing the LP and recording the music onto their iPod, or playing through their computer? In both cases the analogue music is now converted to digital and then reconverted to analogue for the speakers. What's the point of that?
> 
> If you buy an LP wouldn't you want to just play it on a decent analogue stereo?


Turntables with USB ports are for storing. Should you have a wide collection of LPs and you want to "save" it / make a digital copy of it, this is the way. But afaik they have an analog output (pre-phono) as well...I have never heard of turntables with USB port only.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Mendelssohn wrote a Cello Concerto? No? close enough:


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Varick said:


> This post reminded me of one of my biggest pet peaves. There is no such thing as a "flautist." It is spelled and pronounced FLUTIST. One does not play a flaut, they play a flute.
> 
> I don't know where this comes from other than a guess. In Italian the word flute is flauta (sp?). But in English, it is only flutist.
> 
> The "National Flute Association's" motto is _"Inspiring *Flutists*, Enriching Lives."_ Notice how they do not inspire "Flautists."
> 
> Thank you, I feel better now that's off my chest. Carry on.
> 
> V


In America it is Flutist, but in the UK they say Flautist. I guess they like to (ahem ) _flaut _their closeness to European tradition.


----------



## Le Beau Serge

Just a random question but does anyone know of any good books on 20th century composers 1940s onwards? I've really gotten into "contemporary/modern" classical but I'm but I know nothing about them, their music or their movement(s) etc.

I find reading from the computer hard and would prefer a book. Feel free to send me a PM if you like thank you.

Serge.


----------



## Mahlerian

Le Beau Serge said:


> Just a random question but does anyone know of any good books on 20th century composers 1940s onwards? I've really gotten into "contemporary/modern" classical but I'm but I know nothing about them, their music or their movement(s) etc.
> 
> I find reading from the computer hard and would prefer a book. Feel free to send me a PM if you like thank you.
> 
> Serge.


I haven't read it, but Paul Griffths' _Modern Music and After_ is very highly regarded, although it is weaker on some of the newest trends and of course focuses on the avant-garde.


----------



## Varick

Huilunsoittaja said:


> In America it is Flutist, but in the UK they say Flautist. I guess they like to (ahem ) _flaut _their closeness to European tradition.


Well, what the hell do those people in the UK know about the English Language????

V


----------



## Piwikiwi

Huilunsoittaja said:


> In America it is Flutist, but in the UK they say Flautist. I guess they like to (ahem ) _flaut _their closeness to European tradition.


The American spelling of English is simply barbaric. ^^


----------



## DeepR

I was listening to Rachmaninoff's Ave Maria and then read this youtube comment:

"Sergei Rachmaninoff- rearrange letters and you get "Reach fine orgasm in F"
The Ave Maria is written in the key of F. Coincidence? I think not...﻿"

Well that's some discovery. ;D


----------



## Blancrocher

I was reading about Maria Schneider and her recent grammy-winning "Winter Morning Walks," and learned that the album it appears on is "fan-funded through ArtistShare" and "is surely one of the first, if not the first album by major American orchestras to be fan-funded."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Schneider_(musician)


----------



## Weston

Does anyone know the methodology for choosing the order of works appearing on CDs these days? I find some track listings puzzling. For example this CD of Arensky orchestral suites from Naxos has the following track listing:

Suite for orchestra No. 2 ("Silhouettes"), Op. 23
Suite for orchestra No. 1 in G major, Op. 7
Suite for orchestra No. 3 ("Variations in C major"), Op. 33

I see this a lot. Why place No. 2 before No. 1? I can understand this back in vinyl days when works had to fit wherever they fit, but there are no such limitations on a CD.

Did the producer decide the No. 2 sounds a little more interesting than No. 1 and wants to draw the listener in to the rest of the album -- assuming the listener is going to play it beginning to end? (I seldom listen that way any more.)


----------



## science

Weston said:


> Does anyone know the methodology for choosing the order of works appearing on CDs these days? I find some track listings puzzling. For example this CD of Arensky orchestral suites from Naxos has the following track listing:
> 
> Suite for orchestra No. 2 ("Silhouettes"), Op. 23
> Suite for orchestra No. 1 in G major, Op. 7
> Suite for orchestra No. 3 ("Variations in C major"), Op. 33
> 
> I see this a lot. Why place No. 2 before No. 1? I can understand this back in vinyl days when works had to fit wherever they fit, but there are no such limitations on a CD.
> 
> Did the producer decide the No. 2 sounds a little more interesting than No. 1 and wants to draw the listener in to the rest of the album -- assuming the listener is going to play it beginning to end? (I seldom listen that way any more.)


This is a great question. I've seen it a lot too.


----------



## maestro267

Weston said:


> Does anyone know the methodology for choosing the order of works appearing on CDs these days? I find some track listings puzzling. For example this CD of Arensky orchestral suites from Naxos has the following track listing:
> 
> Suite for orchestra No. 2 ("Silhouettes"), Op. 23
> Suite for orchestra No. 1 in G major, Op. 7
> Suite for orchestra No. 3 ("Variations in C major"), Op. 33
> 
> I see this a lot. Why place No. 2 before No. 1? I can understand this back in vinyl days when works had to fit wherever they fit, but there are no such limitations on a CD.
> 
> Did the producer decide the No. 2 sounds a little more interesting than No. 1 and wants to draw the listener in to the rest of the album -- assuming the listener is going to play it beginning to end? (I seldom listen that way any more.)


Naxos do this quite a lot. I've got a disc of Stenhammar's piano concertos that puts No. 2 before No. 1. And I also know they do the same with the Ginastera Cello Concertos. Why?! And, like you, the only time I ever listen to a whole disc of classical is if it only contains one work.


----------



## science

Varick said:


> Well, what the hell do those people in the UK know about the English Language????
> 
> V


We didn't make the English language; we made it better.


----------



## Morimur

science said:


> We didn't make the English language; we made it better.


Have you heard kids in America speak English nowadays?


----------



## Janspe

I have a (perhaps silly) question that has been bothering me for some time now. Is there a piano concerto in which there is a piano in the orchestral part, in addition to the solo piano? I don't mean a double concerto, but something like the Barber violin concerto or, say, the Shostakovich first symphony, where the piano is part of the orchestra. I don't know if it makes any sense to have a piano in the orchestra when the solo piano is in the spotlight and can take care of all the keyboardy goodness, but I'd still be interested to know if such a work exists. Cheers!


----------



## hpowders

I've made a study of William Schuman's symphonies 3-10 and now there is absolutely no doubt in my opinion, that his sixth symphony is his finest.

Also, I submit his name proudly as a 20th century composer better than Telemann was.


----------



## Weston

Janspe said:


> I have a (perhaps silly) question that has been bothering me for some time now. Is there a piano concerto in which there is a piano in the orchestral part, in addition to the solo piano? I don't mean a double concerto, but something like the Barber violin concerto or, say, the Shostakovich first symphony, where the piano is part of the orchestra. I don't know if it makes any sense to have a piano in the orchestra when the solo piano is in the spotlight and can take care of all the keyboardy goodness, but I'd still be interested to know if such a work exists. Cheers!


If anyone has done this it would be Bohuslav Martinu who often used the piano as an orchestral instrument. This quote from the Wikipedia article on Martinu is as close as I can find to what you are seeking:

"A characteristic feature of his orchestral writing is the near-omnipresent piano; many of his orchestral works include a prominent part for piano, including his small concerto for harpsichord and chamber orchestra."

I think it's quite a cool idea to include piano as an orchestral instrument. I don't know why more composers have not used its unique color in this way.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Janspe said:


> I have a (perhaps silly) question that has been bothering me for some time now.


Have a look for the version of Cage's 3'23" for piano and piano-supplemented orchestra


----------



## MagneticGhost

hpowders said:


> Also, I submit his name proudly as a 20th century composer better than Telemann was.


Everyone composing between 1900-2000 was a better 20th Century composer than Telemann


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

MagneticGhost said:


> Everyone composing between 1900-2000 was a better 20th Century composer than Telemann


Really?


----------



## MagneticGhost

http://http://entertainment.ca.msn.com/celebs/news/beyonce-a-cousin-of-composer-gustav-mahler

Beyoncé is a cousin of Gustav Mahler's - 4 times removed 
Who Knew?


----------



## spradlig

Many twentieth-century composers have used the piano as an orchestral instrument, including familiar composers in popular compositions. Off the top of my head: Prokofiev, Ives, Mahler, Shostakovich, Respighi, R. Strauss, Barber, Bartok, Rachmaninoff,... TC members who know more they I can flood you with more names if they choose.

In fact, in twentieth-century music, it is harder to think of composers who never used the piano in an orchestra than composers who did.

A good question would be to find good early (say, pre-20th century) usages of the piano in this manner.



Weston said:


> If anyone has done this it would be Bohuslav Martinu who often used the piano as an orchestral instrument. This quote from the Wikipedia article on Martinu is as close as I can find to what you are seeking:
> 
> "A characteristic feature of his orchestral writing is the near-omnipresent piano; many of his orchestral works include a prominent part for piano, including his small concerto for harpsichord and chamber orchestra."
> 
> I think it's quite a cool idea to include piano as an orchestral instrument. I don't know why more composers have not used its unique color in this way.


----------



## Mahlerian

spradlig said:


> Many twentieth-century composers have used the piano as an orchestral instrument, including familiar composers in popular compositions. Off the top of my head: Prokofiev, Ives, Mahler, Shostakovich, Respighi, R. Strauss, Barber, Bartok, Rachmaninoff,... TC members who know more they I can flood you with more names if they choose.
> 
> In fact, in twentieth-century music, it is harder to think of composers who never used the piano in an orchestra than composers who did.


Schoenberg and Berg as well, in their operas. The score of Lulu is colored by piano as well as vibraphone and saxophone, and Moses und Aron by piano as well as mandolin and an array of unusual percussion.

Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in Three Movements, as well as Agon, also use piano in their scores.



spraldig said:


> A good question would be to find good early (say, pre-20th century) usages of the piano in this manner.


Saint-Saens' Symphony No. 3 has a piano in its orchestration...that's about all I can think of. Even the one Mahler example (two if you count his Ruckert Lieder) dates from the 20th century.


----------



## musicrom

On Pandora, Emil Reesen's _Gaucho, Suite for Orchestra_ came up and it contained a melody that I've heard a billion times (sometimes played by Mariachi bands on TV, I think). I somehow doubt it, but does anyone know if Reesen was the original composer of that melody, or did he just borrow it for his piece? I can't find any information about it anywhere online.

Here's the music on SoundCloud:

__
https://soundcloud.com/danish-composers%2Femil-reesen-gaucho-suite-iii


----------



## senza sordino

Is the music of Beethoven or Mozart always being played somewhere on Earth? 

What about Brahms? What about Chausson?

I picked on Chausson because I played today some of his music for the first time in a couple of months.


----------



## Vaneyes

BBC's ten pieces of CM to inspire a generation. 

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_news.php?id=2839


----------



## spradlig

Thanks, Mahlerian. After I posted I thought of the Saint-Saens work.

It seems to me that Beethoven's unclassifiable _Choral Fantasy_ almost qualifies. If I recall correctly, it begins like a piano concerto with an extremely long piano solo. Toward the end of the piece, the piano behaves like a member of the orchestra.

I was surprised to find that Stravinsky's "percussive" ballet _The Rite of Spring_ has no piano in its score (thanks, Wikipedia). His _Petrouchka_ has a prominent piano part.



Mahlerian said:


> Schoenberg and Berg as well, in their operas. The score of Lulu is colored by piano as well as vibraphone and saxophone, and Moses und Aron by piano as well as mandolin and an array of unusual percussion.
> 
> Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in Three Movements, as well as Agon, also use piano in their scores.
> 
> Saint-Saens' Symphony No. 3 has a piano in its orchestration...that's about all I can think of. Even the one Mahler example (two if you count his Ruckert Lieder) dates from the 20th century.


----------



## Antiquarian

That Jerry Goldsmith's Klingon Battle theme from "Star Trek the Motion Picture" owes not a little debt of inspiration to Prokofiev's Battle on the Ice April 5, 1242 from "Alexander Nevsky".


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> Antiquarian: That Jerry Goldsmith's Klingon Battle theme from "Star Trek the Motion Picture" owes not a little debt of inspiration to Prokofiev's Battle on the Ice April 5, 1242 from "Alexander Nevsky".


. . . and not a little debt to Bartok either a couple of scenes later where the young Spock is having a mind-meld with his parents.

I love how mysterious that music is; in fact, its one of my favorite cues in the movie.


----------



## Antiquarian

M Blair "not a little debt to Bartok either a couple of scenes later"

I'm curious about this. Which Bartok work? Listening to the cue you mentioned it DOES sound familiar...


----------



## spradlig

Can anyone explain why the piano sounds weird in parts of Camille Saint-Saens's Fifth Piano Concerto? Most of you who are familiar with the work will know what I mean.

I read somewhere that it's because of the use of parallel tenths, but I doubt that can account for the unusual tone color I heard in a performance by Jean-Yves Thibaudet (sorry, I forgot the orchestra). Perhaps crafty use of the sostenuto pedal?

This phenomenon is not unique to this performance; I read an article about how the secret was to place a comb inside the piano. I believed it for a moment, but then I checked the date to see if it was an April Fool's joke, and the date was April 1.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Antiquarian said:


> M Blair "not a little debt to Bartok either a couple of scenes later"
> 
> I'm curious about this. Which Bartok work? Listening to the cue you mentioned it DOES sound familiar...


I'm thinking Bartok's _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta._


----------



## KenOC

spradlig said:


> Can anyone explain why the piano sounds weird in parts of Camille Saint-Saens's Fifth Piano Concerto? Most of you who are familiar with the work will know what I mean.


Generally speaking, Saint-Saens was trying to imitate what he considered "oriental" (or Middle Eastern anyway) tonalities in his "Egyptian" concerto. Don't know the technical details, but I don't think he succeeded very well.

Johann Strauss II tried something similar in his "Egyptian March," written in anticipation of the opening of the Suez Canal.


----------



## dgee

spradlig said:


> Can anyone explain why the piano sounds weird in parts of Camille Saint-Saens's Fifth Piano Concerto? Most of you who are familiar with the work will know what I mean.
> 
> I read somewhere that it's because of the use of parallel tenths, but I doubt that can account for the unusual tone color I heard in a performance by Jean-Yves Thibaudet (sorry, I forgot the orchestra). Perhaps crafty use of the sostenuto pedal?
> 
> This phenomenon is not unique to this performance; I read an article about how the secret was to place a comb inside the piano. I believed it for a moment, but then I checked the date to see if it was an April Fool's joke, and the date was April 1.


Is the bit you are thinking of on the second system of p65 (by the score numbering not the pdf numbering) in the score here?

http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im...1533-PMLP08467-Piano_Concerto_No_5_Op_103.pdf

If so, the parralel intervals and the high tessitura will sound quite different. Not sure about any further piano technique issues, but would be interested to know


----------



## GodNickSatan

Listening to _that_ candenza in Prokofiev's second Piano Concerto is the equivalent of listening to the most epic guitar solo ever.


----------



## Dustin

Random thought of the moment: Why and how long is PetrB banned for?!?! I need my daily dose of musical schooling!


----------



## KenOC

Dustin said:


> Random thought of the moment: Why and how long is PetrB banned for?!?! I need my daily dose of musical schooling!


What? Banned? How do you know?

PetrB really needs some kind of special dispensation so that he can keep enraging me. I need that!


----------



## Dustin

KenOC said:


> What? Banned? How do you know?
> 
> PetrB really needs some kind of special dispensation so that he can keep enraging me. I need that!


When you look at his posts, it says by his name "Banned(Temporarily)"


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

...................................


----------



## KenOC

Dustin said:


> When you look at his posts, it says by his name "Banned(Temporarily)"


In honor of PetrB, during his absence, a cartoon of some insight that he recently posted:


----------



## Chronochromie

Grieg wrote a symphony!


----------



## dgee

Richannes Wrahms said:


> ...................................


Salad Fingers! And is that Hubert Cumberdale and Marjory Stewart-Baxter there too? Love it - will have to rewatch


----------



## Weston

Is there a TC Recommended Top 10,000 Ensembles / Conductors / Performers thread/stickie? 

I've pretty much got the entire history of western music in my collection now. (Just kidding, but sometimes it seems that way). Now it seems time for me to focus on the best performances I can find. I suppose this would be an impossible list, more so even than other lists, because each performer might specialize in one composer and even then there may not be close to a consensus.

But some kind of guidance toward consistent quality of interpretation and record engineering in the form of a list where one wouldn't have to wade through pages and pages of threads could be useful. 

Am I just missing this if it exists?


----------



## Chronochromie

Weston said:


> Is there a TC Recommended Top 10,000 Ensembles / Conductors / Performers thread/stickie?
> 
> I've pretty much got the entire history of western music in my collection now. (Just kidding, but sometimes it seems that way). Now it seems time for me to focus on the best performances I can find. I suppose this would be an impossible list, more so even than other lists, because each performer might specialize in one composer and even then there may not be close to a consensus.
> 
> But some kind of guidance toward consistent quality of interpretation and record engineering in the form of a list where one wouldn't have to wade through pages and pages of threads could be useful.
> 
> Am I just missing this if it exists?


For symphonies there`s The Guardian. At the end of each article you can find some of of the best perfomances of each symphony. http://www.theguardian.com/music/series/50-greatest-symphonies Hope it helps.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I've been interested in Mozart's violin sonatas for a while. I came to discover them for myself when reading about the Köchel catalogue and downloading scores of his early works to see his progression as a young composer. What baffles me is that I have only found ONE box set of his complete sonatas for violin and keyboard....can anyone find more than one? His early violin sonatas fascinate me in the same way Mendelssohn's string symphonies do.


----------



## SimonNZ

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What baffles me is that I have only found ONE box set of his complete sonatas for violin and keyboard....can anyone find more than one? .


Presto list ten complete boxes in print at the moment:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/78848

Edit: actually, looking closer at those "complete" sets none seem to have the K6-K31 sonatas. I seems they're distinct as "Sonatas for the keyboard, which may be played with violin accompaniment"


----------



## musicrom

Does anyone know why he was banned or how long he's banned?


----------



## Op.123

Brilliant and absolutely haunting performance!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I might be becoming addicted to Mahler's 6th, first time I'm addicted to anything of his but his 7th!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Verdi's Ave Maria is built from a synthetic scale called 'Enigmatic scale'. I wonder what he could have achieved if he had really gotten into that kind of technique.


----------



## Crudblud

The first 20 minutes of _Einstein on the Beach_ is actually pretty enjoyable.


----------



## dgee

Crudblud said:


> The first 20 minutes of _Einstein on the Beach_ is actually pretty enjoyable.


Courageous of you to try it! Are each of the 20 minutes the same or do they differ in an appreciable way?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Crudblud said:


> The first 20 minutes of _Einstein on the Beach_ is actually pretty enjoyable.


Spaceship is pretty good....especially the violin version which appears somewhere.


----------



## violadude

I came upon a realization whilst talking with Clavichorder the other day that was kind of interesting.

The opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony should, in theory, be tonally ambiguous. 
It opens with 3 Gs and an E-flat (all unison) and then 3 Fs and a D. Neither of those opening statements provide enough information to establish c minor, which is only established on the third entrance when the piece "actually" starts. 

The piece is so well ingrained into all of our minds that most of us hear the opening as retroactively being firmly in c minor when it's actually not.


----------



## Dustin

musicrom said:


> Does anyone know why he was banned or how long he's banned?


And can we vote to re-instate him? I'm not sure what he did but whatever it was, I don't see how it can be deserving of denying the site one of it's most active, experienced and knowledgable participants. It says he is still "temporarily" banned. PetrB! PetrB! PetrB!


----------



## violadude

Dustin said:


> And can we vote to re-instate him? I'm not sure what he did but whatever it was, I don't see how it can be deserving of denying the site one of it's most active, experienced and knowledgable participants. It says he is still "temporarily" banned. PetrB! PetrB! PetrB!


He's unbanned now.


----------



## Dustin

violadude said:


> He's unbanned now.


Wow didn't know it would be that easy. All I had to do was ask. Thanks!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> I came upon a realization whilst talking with Clavichorder the other day that was kind of interesting.
> 
> The opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony should, in theory, be tonally ambiguous.
> It opens with 3 Gs and an E-flat (all unison) and then 3 Fs and a D. Neither of those opening statements provide enough information to establish c minor, which is only established on the third entrance when the piece "actually" starts.
> 
> The piece is so well ingrained into all of our minds that most of us hear the opening as retroactively being firmly in c minor when it's actually not.


I think an even more successful tonally ambiguous opening is in his 9th symphony.


----------



## KenOC

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think an even more successful tonally ambiguous opening is in his 9th symphony.


Or go all the way with the opening of the String Quartet Op. 59 No. 3, the third Razumovsky. Now that's radical!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> Or go all the way with the opening of the String Quartet Op. 59 No. 3, the third Razumovsky. Now that's radical!


Well, yes, but the ambiguity comes from the developmental emancipation of dissonance through chords that function as different dominants, it's a step up from the opening of his first symphony. The ambiguity to which is being referred to in the 5th and 9th symphonies is a result of single intervals which can _imply_ several harmonic functions or tonalities at once. That is the surprise factor.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

My Beethoven and Mahler scores arrived in the mail today


----------



## Forte

Did Scriabin really plan on writing a week worth of music in Mysterium? Not sure the acoustics at the bottom of the Himalayas are ideal for all that work...


----------



## musicrom

My knowledge of music theory is very limited, so I'm sorry if any or all of my questions are stupid. I'm working on a viola concerto (might demote it to concertino though), and I was wondering: is it okay to change the key between movements? If so, is there a good way to choose the keys? Should the last movement be in the same key as the first movement?

I currently have 1.5 movements, with 1 in E minor and .5 in G minor (still working on it), and as I'm approaching the last movement, I'm wondering what to do with it in terms of character. Would it be uninteresting if the entire piece was in a minor key?


----------



## Mahlerian

musicrom said:


> My knowledge of music theory is very limited, so I'm sorry if any or all of my questions are stupid. I'm working on a viola concerto (might demote it to concertino though), and I was wondering: is it okay to change the key between movements? If so, is there a good way to choose the keys? Should the last movement be in the same key as the first movement?


In Classical-era music, a sonata would normally be:

1st movement: Tonic (I)
2nd movement: Subdominant (IV), the relative minor (VI) or, when in a minor key, the relative major (III)
3rd movement: Tonic (I)
4th movement: Tonic (I)

(for a concerto, you just omit the third movement minuet)

Since then, and especially in modern music, all sorts of key schemes can be found, including those where the first and last movements are in different tonalities altogether (so not simply the major mode of the same minor tonality).

Mahler's Fifth:
1st movement: C# minor (vii)
2nd movement: A minor (v)
3rd movement: D major (I)
4th movement: F major (fl-III)
5th movement: D major (I)



musicrom said:


> I currently have 1.5 movements, with 1 in E minor and .5 in G minor (still working on it), and as I'm approaching the last movement, I'm wondering what to do with it in terms of character.


Contrast. Whatever you've done with the other movements, you want to do something different but related to them with the finale.



musicrom said:


> Would it be uninteresting if the entire piece was in a minor key?


If it were in a single minor key? It would probably get monotonous. Each movement would need to make excursions into major-key areas as well. I'm sure you can find modern works somewhere where every movement is in the minor, but too much emphasis on the minor mode tends to make the music sound heavy and turgid.


----------



## hpowders

Dustin said:


> Wow didn't know it would be that easy. All I had to do was ask. Thanks!


In Germany, one can self-ban; simple press Autobahn.


----------



## senza sordino

Back in the olden days, you might sometimes see a classical musician on TV, a late night talk show, or a variety show. This was the golden age of television. I don't think you do see classical musicians on TV anymore. (Outside of PBS here in North America so you do see them on TV, I really mean mainstream higher ratings TV) 

I saw Hilary Hahn interviewed by Tavis Smiley on PBS a few months ago, but she didn't play, just talked about her new album of commissioned encores.


----------



## Weston

I'm old enough to just barely remember Leonard Bernstein's televised Young People's Concerts. A Golden Age indeed!


----------



## Weston

Why doesn't classical have a phenomenon similar to the modern day song writing team (Lennon and McCartney, Carol King and Gerry Goffin, or any of a number of bands whose members contribute to a composition)? Sometimes these committee efforts can create a gestalt, greater than the individuals. Why did classical composers work more in a vacuum? 

Or did they?


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> Why doesn't classical have a phenomenon similar to the modern day song writing team (Lennon and McCartney, Carol King and Gerry Goffin, or any of a number of bands whose members contribute to a composition)? Sometimes these committee efforts can create a gestalt, greater than the individuals. Why did classical composers work more in a vacuum?
> 
> Or did they?


There have been examples of collaboratively composed works (usually individual movements being contributed by different composers), and examples where a partially completed work has been filled in by another (some of Mussorgsky's and Borodin's works and Rimsky-Korsakov/Glazunov), or even examples where a ground plan for a work was laid out for another to compose (such as Balakirev for Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Overture), but really it's because another person can't hear what you're looking for in a piece of music better than you can.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Today I decided to give Saint-Saëns an other chance by listening to 'Samson et Dalila'. 

Total failure. I can't stand it. As soon as a melodic sequence ends another one equally dull begins or repeats. People complain about Bruckner's use of repetitions but this is ridiculous.


----------



## Guest

Perhaps this deserves its own thread, perhaps not. 

But within a few pithy posts, hpowders will revolutionize this forum by becoming by far the "youngest" poster to achieve top 10 poster post-count status! The Kennedy of classical?


----------



## Mesenkomaha

I'm listening to the Haydn symphonies in order 1 to the end and I'm starting to tell which key is being played in and if it is major or minor. This is remarkable for a (classical) music noob like myself I think. 

Haydn is almost certainly my go-to composer when I want to listen to CM or when I can't make a decision of what to listen to.


----------



## violadude

Mesenkomaha said:


> I'm listening to the Haydn symphonies in order 1 to the end and I'm starting to tell which key is being played in and if it is major or minor. This is remarkable for a (classical) music noob like myself I think.
> 
> Haydn is almost certainly my go-to composer when I want to listen to CM or when I can't make a decision of what to listen to.


Are you listening to HIP recordings? Trying to tell what keys sound like based on HIP recordings might mess you up a little when it comes to later pieces and non-HIP performances.


----------



## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> Are you listening to HIP recordings? Trying to tell what keys sound like based on HIP recordings might mess you up a little when it comes to later pieces and non-HIP performances.


I can't be the only one at least a little bothered by the fact that HIP Classical-era music is tuned "between" the modern keys, right? Baroque music is just a half-step lower, so that's no problem.


----------



## science

I organize my iTunes by making a playlist for each album and then storing them in various folders. In each folder the playlists automatically sort in alphabetical order. In one playlist I noticed: 

Byrd: ... 
Cage: ... 

Well, I thought, the great Maya Angelou knows why it sings....


----------



## Brad

Just a quick question, would this music classify as atonal?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I often imagine how many amazing recordings Carlos Kleiber would have made had he not been such a reclusive enigmatic type of guy. I mean, it actually kinda bothers sometimes. What if he had recorded Beethoven's "Eroica" or "Choral" symphony, or gasp, an entire symphony cycle, or ANY Mahler symphony, or any Tchaikovsky... You get the point. 

Perhaps in another universe, he was the most prolific conductor of all time.


----------



## Mahlerian

Brad said:


> Just a quick question, would this music classify as atonal?


It's not in the chromatic style associated with the term. It's not traditionally tonal, of course, in the common practice sense.

I don't even believe that atonal really means anything, though, so maybe you shouldn't ask me.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I'd like to go to the symphony the next time a chance arises because I haven't been since the first or second grade, but I always think about how much I would hate the awkward bits. Sitting next to a stranger, people clapping at the wrong times, not knowing whether or not you should clap at all, those silences between movements, and the unenthusiastic claps that make it seem like no one really enjoyed the piece, feeling like you can't move a single muscle in your body for fear of making a noise, etc. For some reason these fears always beat away my ambitions...


----------



## brianvds

Weston said:


> Why doesn't classical have a phenomenon similar to the modern day song writing team (Lennon and McCartney, Carol King and Gerry Goffin, or any of a number of bands whose members contribute to a composition)? Sometimes these committee efforts can create a gestalt, greater than the individuals. Why did classical composers work more in a vacuum?
> 
> Or did they?


There are contemporary works created by committee, such as the "Butterfly Lovers" violin concerto, by, erm, some Chinese guys whose names I can't remember. I would also guess that with a lot of film music, the work might be orchestrated by people other than the composer.

Still, it is true that classical composers tend to work alone. It seems to have worked well for centuries. But it is a good question why.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've always wondered why it is that composers seem to improve or at least remain consistent the older they get whereas with bands it's almost a universally accepted rule that they decrease in quality over time.


----------



## SottoVoce

I'm sure that this can be found by scouring through a biography, but why didn't Mahler have an involved interest in composing chamber music? We know of that fragment of the Piano Quartet. We also know that he is extremely competent in the chamber idiom through the chamber-like passages in the Symphonies. I'm assuming that it was 1.) time constraints due to his conducting or 2.) a 'philosophical' idea that the symphony can encompass everything, including song and chamber music.


----------



## Guest

I am a bit tipsy right now and would like to point out that PetrB is simultaneously a turd and a hero. THAT IS ALL.


----------



## Guest

Very random discovery.

Until a few months ago, the name Arvo Part meant little to me, never having listened to his music. Penderecki meant even less as in I'd never even heard of him. But since then, my voyage of discovery has made them two of my "favourites."

Last night I was listening to one of my Secret Chiefs 3 albums (an experimental rock band). And what do I read in the liner notes? That one piece contains three "samples" - two of Penderecki and one of Arvo Part!

Synchronicity...


----------



## Morimur

gog said:


> Very random discovery.
> 
> Until a few months ago, the name Arvo Part meant little to me, never having listened to his music. Penderecki meant even less as in I'd never even heard of him. But since then, my voyage of discovery has made them two of my "favourites."
> 
> Last night I was listening to one of my Secret Chiefs 3 albums (an experimental rock band). And what do I read in the liner notes? That one piece contains three "samples" - two of Penderecki and one of Arvo Part!
> 
> Synchronicity...


I dislike both but, congratulations!


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Forte said:


> Did Scriabin really plan on writing a week worth of music in Mysterium? Not sure the acoustics at the bottom of the Himalayas are ideal for all that work...


Yes, but Scriabin had an ever greater logical fallacy hit him in the midst of its composition. If Mysterium was going to be music of the people, he couldn't be the sole author, and so he gave up after writing a number of pages of it. The Prelude to Mysterium was "finished" by a Russian musicologist, who you could say was doing the right thing (it should be a collaborative composition), but even more people could build upon it as they please.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I got 2 musicological goals for this next school year to find at my school's music library:

1. Find the LP of Glazunov playing about 45-ish minutes of his own music (and hopefully record it with my digital recorder)
2. Find a certain biography (in German) of Glazunov that I didn't know was there before and try to get what I can translated of it on my spare time. Also find the pictures of his cat!!

You'd be glad if I found them because then I'd have new things to add to his Guestbook here on TC


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Has there been a recent surge in the number of people giving 'likes' on the 'Current Listening' thread? I got 24 likes for Kleiber's Beethoven and have had a number of 15+ in recent weeks - I used to think I had done well to get into double figures


----------



## Bruce

Headphone Hermit said:


> Has there been a recent surge in the number of people giving 'likes' on the 'Current Listening' thread? I got 24 likes for Kleiber's Beethoven and have had a number of 15+ in recent weeks - I used to think I had done well to get into double figures


Maybe more people are following it now that the days are drawing shorter. I only recently started following the thread, and have often voted for those contributions I find intriguing. But I can't say I noticed a trend.


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> Has there been a recent surge in the number of people giving 'likes' on the 'Current Listening' thread? I got 24 likes for Kleiber's Beethoven and have had a number of 15+ in recent weeks - I used to think I had done well to get into double figures


It's very simple, really. Everybody on TC "likes" you.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> It's very simple, really. Everybody on TC "likes" you.


That's twice in two days you've paid me a compliment - is it your birthday soon or something? :lol:


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> It's very simple, really. Everybody on TC "likes" you.


Actually, I think it's simple because everybody likes THAT RECORDING.


----------



## Weston

It might be an indelicate subject, but lately I have been curious about Claude Debussy's unusual features.









He's a suave cool looking guy, but the shape of his head is a little unusual, exaggerated a bit by his choice of hair style. I don't want to get into phrenology or any similar hokum, but I wonder what could be responsible for this morphology. I have found no references to it on line - no mention anywhere.


----------



## ribonucleic

Cast of the right hand of Anton Rubinstein:










Look at the mitts on that guy!


----------



## Figleaf

Weston said:


> It might be an indelicate subject, but lately I have been curious about Claude Debussy's unusual features.
> 
> View attachment 50189
> 
> 
> He's a suave cool looking guy, but the shape of his head is a little unusual, exaggerated a bit by his choice of hair style. I don't want to get into phrenology or any similar hokum, but I wonder what could be responsible for this morphology. I have found no references to it on line - no mention anywhere.


I think that's because composers are allowed to be a bit funny looking, not that Debussy necessarily was of course. If he'd been a performer, the beauty police would have gone for him and there would be no end of anecdotes about his weirdly shaped head! Personally if I like a performer I'm OK with whatever he/she looks like, conventionally pretty or not. If I don't like them, any physical peculiarities they may have start to really bug me.

Is the shape of his head a French thing maybe? Head shape can be a racial characteristic- although that's probably fertile ground for even dodgier theories than phrenology!


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> I have found no references to it on line - no mention anywhere.


There's a nasty review in the Lexicon of Musical Invective that makes lengthy and disparaging reference to Debussy's features and compares it to his (supposedly) similarly ugly music.


----------



## Figleaf

Mahlerian said:


> There's a nasty review in the Lexicon of Musical Invective that makes lengthy and disparaging reference to Debussy's features and compares it to his (supposedly) similarly ugly music.


There is a LEXICON of Musical Invective?! I'd better not read that- it would be bad for my blood pressure! Great quote though. It blows my composer versus performer theory out of the water.

What made me so interested was this:







It's the tenor Agustarello Affre, who got plenty of flak for his unconventional looks. Whether it's the angle or the hair, I see a resemblance in head shape. Coincidence? Who can say? Personally I don't find either of them displeasing, but I've never had the most conventional views in such matters...


----------



## Figleaf

Mary Garden wrote about rejecting Debussy's advances, supposedly out of friendship for Mme. Debussy. But I think it's fair to surmise that she wasn't really into guys at all.


----------



## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> There's a nasty review in the Lexicon of Musical Invective that makes lengthy and disparaging reference to Debussy's features and compares it to his (supposedly) similarly ugly music.


Fits right into a thread we had-correlation of great music to looks of the composers. Where was this reviewer when we needed him?


----------



## EdwardBast

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I got 2 musicological goals for this next school year to find at my school's music library:
> 
> 1. Find the LP of Glazunov playing about 45-ish minutes of his own music (and hopefully record it with my digital recorder)
> 2. Find a certain biography (in German) of Glazunov that I didn't know was there before and try to get what I can translated of it on my spare time. Also find the pictures of his cat!!
> 
> You'd be glad if I found them because then I'd have new things to add to his Guestbook here on TC


There is a copy of that German biography of Glazunov in the NYC Public Library, the division at Lincoln Center. I used it in writing program notes for his Idyll for horn and strings and his Serenade no. 2 for horn and string orchestra. I would have preferred English. ;-)


----------



## Figleaf

Figleaf said:


> There is a LEXICON of Musical Invective?! I'd better not read that- it would be bad for my blood pressure! Great quote though. It blows my composer versus performer theory out of the water.
> 
> What made me so interested was this:
> View attachment 50190
> 
> It's the tenor Agustarello Affre, who got plenty of flak for his unconventional looks. Whether it's the angle or the hair, I see a resemblance in head shape. Coincidence? Who can say? Personally I don't find either of them displeasing, but I've never had the most conventional views in such matters...


From 'Les prestigieux tenors de l' Opéra' by Gourret and Giraudeau:

'Si son physique était ingrat, [Affre] son timbre de voix, lui, était d'une grande beauté. Ne raconte-t-on pas qu'on le faisait chanter, caché derrière un rideau, dans les grandes réceptions mondaines à Paris?'

If that's true, Debussy got off lightly!













looks fine to me.


----------



## Figleaf

Idea for a writing project: musicians, phrenology and body fascism in fin de siecle Paris.

Yes, I probably do have more important things to do...


----------



## Guest

Random thought: I would really like to be able to rate a poster.


----------



## Weston

I have been unable to find a music theory sub-forum, but I could have sworn there is one. Moderators might want to move this question although it's pretty random.

In the following John Dowland score, I'm assuming the "3" shape means 3/2. That's what the time appears to be. But what are the little diamond shapes, and what in the world is a diamond sharp in the Bassus line. Also this doesn't appear to be figured bass, or is it?


----------



## senza sordino

Weston said:


> I have been unable to find a music theory sub-forum, but I could have sworn there is one. Moderators might want to move this question although it's pretty random.
> 
> In the following John Dowland score, I'm assuming the "3" shape means 3/2. That's what the time appears to be. But what are the little diamond shapes, and what in the world is a diamond sharp in the Bassus line. Also this doesn't appear to be figured bass, or is it?
> 
> View attachment 50517


I agree that the three means three beats to the bar. The diamond shapes I've never seen, but I have a guess, a total guess. It's the top and bottom note for the singer in this piece, to let the singer know what to expect. You've only supplied a fragment of the entire piece, so I can't check to be sure.


----------



## Weston

An educated guess, I would say. That has got to be it!


----------



## ribonucleic




----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

You know that Robin Williams guy, who's a pop artist? Well, he had a song once, 'Millenium', and the melody is definitely taken from the last movement of Grieg's Piano Concerto.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

arcaneholocaust said:


> Random thought: I would really like to be able to rate a poster.


That could lead to massive conflicts on this forum .


----------



## Headphone Hermit

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> That could lead to massive conflicts on this forum .


.... and there could be relegation for the lowest-rated posters .... don't know where to, but somewhere where no-one reads the previous posts to a thread ... or where unsubstantiated assertion based on a few minutes knowledge is commonplace :lol:


----------



## Blancrocher

Headphone Hermit said:


> .... and there could be relegation for the lowest-rated posters .... don't know where to, but somewhere where no-one reads the previous posts to a thread ... or where unsunstantiated assertion based on a few minutes knowledge is commonplace :lol:


You know how to figure out who's the sucker at the poker table, HH? I'm afraid we're _in_ the relegation zone. All the elites post in the opera section!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Blancrocher said:


> You know how to figure out who's the sucker at the poker table, HH? I'm afraid we're _in_ the relegation zone. All the elites post in the opera section!


I suppose that I get double-bad points for continuing to post all my opera listening in the 'Current Listening' thread?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Any recommendations for a HIP recording of Mozart's 40th? (Full-fledged HIP, not just tempi, orchestra size, but also period instruments. The whole shebang.).


----------



## ptr

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Any recommendations for a HIP recording of Mozart's 40th? (Full-fledged HIP, not just tempi, orchestra size, but also period instruments. The whole shebang.).


Brüggen on Philips!






/ptr


----------



## Headphone Hermit

ptr said:


> Brüggen on Philips!
> 
> /ptr


Agreed wholeheartedly!


----------



## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> That could lead to massive conflicts on this forum .


So what else is new??? :lol:


----------



## Headphone Hermit

I know it is possible to 'ignore' a fellow TC-er completely, but is it possible to 'ignore' a thread as well so that it doesn't appear in the list of unread threads?


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I love baroque music, but I wonder sometimes how much more I would enjoy it if I didn't dislike the oboe d'amore. It's not unlike my issue with the harpsichord in that the sound is just too nasally for me to interpret it as graceful or beautiful when the music asks me to, particularly during slow movements or in dainty melodies. Granted it becomes less of a problem if the music is kinetic and high energy; the harpsichord's sort of ugly oomph is better at making me feel that vigorously gallant atmosphere, but the more the music tends toward charm rather than sprightliness, the more I start to feel like something just isn't right.

The harpsichord at least has the advantage of sounding perfectly moody and dark for minor key and religious works, but the oboe d'amore in similar pieces always sounds like a parody instrument to me. Something about that whinging and whiny quality of the sound is just melodramatic, and it never really tugs at me the way other wind instruments do.


----------



## MagneticGhost

I think clapping between movements is a good idea. Climactic endings deserve applause whether mid work or at the end.
In operas, the audience don't wait till the end do they!


----------



## ribonucleic

MagneticGhost said:


> In operas, the audience don't wait till the end do they!


And it's vulgar there too, IMHO.

Or if I'm wrong, why the current half measures? After the big aria, when everyone interrupts the work to express their unrestrainable enthusiasm, since the proceedings are at a halt anyway, why not have the soprano step out of character and face the audience to accept her well-earned ovation? Why must she freeze in place and pretend deafness to the applause?

Because it would be disrespectful to the composer and/or rupture the suspension of disbelief? Well, too late for that, I'm afraid.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I didn't know Beethoven wrote a horn sonata...
He should have written a cello concerto. And I had no idea that Bartok wrote a viola concerto.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

...doublepost oops


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

The more I explore Bach the more I realize that the only barrier to my liking his pieces is the fact that my working memory is probably not even a fifth of what his was. That's not to say I don't love a lot of his music because I do; I've just realized that I rarely ever think to blame my dislike of, let's say the cantatas, on the fact that while I'm listening to them I can barely perceive the melodies and developments that are happening. It's probably no coincidence that 54 is my favorite because it's straightforward on a surface level, to a layman like me anyway.

I guess the only thing keeping me from loving the other 208 is repeated listens. Dozens and dozens of repeated listens... to each one.


----------



## violadude

MoonlightSonata said:


> I didn't know Beethoven wrote a horn sonata...
> He should have written a cello concerto. And I had no idea that Bartok wrote a viola concerto.


His viola concerto is awesome.


----------



## hpowders

Yes, a viola concerto and TWO violin concertos. Seems to have been Hungary for string writing.


----------



## violadude

Just so no one gets too confused, it appears that Lope has transformed into Spongebob Squarepants.


----------



## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> Just so no one gets too confused, it appears that Lope has transformed into Spongebob Squarepants.


I didn't imagine that he could choose a _more_ disturbing avatar...


----------



## Guest

Avant-bob Serial-pants


----------



## Morimur

Yes, I've undergone a transformation, but I can assure you, my soul is still black as death itself.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

Morimur said:


> Yes, I've undergone a transformation, but I can assure you my soul is still as black as death itself.


You mean like this little fellow?


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> The more I explore Bach the more I realize that the only barrier to my liking his pieces is the fact that my working memory is probably not even a fifth of what his was.


Do you need a good memory to enjoy Bach?

I'm listening to one of the 24 preludes and fugues in Book 1 of the Well-tempered clavier at the moment. I'm thoroughly enjoying it, but could't tell you which number it was without looking at the track listing. I couldn't tell you off-hand which is my favourite, or which cantata I like best, or ..... lots of things, but I can remember that I love listening to his music


----------



## omega

Classical music in Scotland - how might a yes vote change things? (The Guardian)


----------



## violadude

I started a new wish list on Amazon today. I'm already up to 4 pages.

Ya I'm greedy as hell when it comes to music, but that's a good thing right...Better than being greedy for some other things.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/13K50QUQ0B2OY/ref=cm_wl_sortbar_o_page_1

If anyone wants to check it out.

Also my birthday is coming up soon

just sayin...

(P.S. that was a joke, I don't expect anyone to get me anything lol)


----------



## Weston

^I don't do their wish lists because I think it's none of their business.* But I do bookmark the things I want to purchase and I'm embarrassed to tell anyone how many bookmarks are in that folder!

*When Amazon was a lot newer, I once bought a friend some Zydeco music she wanted, and for me I also bought a new Jethro Tull album that was just out at the time. Amazon somehow put these two very diverse genres together and decided I _must_ like Jimmy Buffet. (I don't.) I got ads for Jimmy Buffet for a couple of years. It drove me crazy.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Headphone Hermit said:


> .... and there could be relegation for the lowest-rated posters .... don't know where to, but somewhere where no-one reads the previous posts to a thread ... or where unsubstantiated assertion based on a few minutes knowledge is commonplace :lol:


Yes, we should take 'our' classical 'elitism' to the next level.


----------



## Mahlerian

Headphone Hermit said:


> somewhere where no-one reads the previous posts to a thread ... or where unsubstantiated assertion based on a few minutes knowledge is commonplace :lol:


Youtube comment sections?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Mahlerian said:


> Youtube comment sections?


:lol: This couldn't be truer. I've actively avoided the YouTube comment section for months. Only go there if you want to lose some brain cells.


----------



## Guest

My listening habits have changed quite a bit. Whilst listening to Lutoslawski and musing about the universe and PetrB's least favorite thing (favorites, lists, rankings, etc), I realized that, were I pressed to list my top 50 or 100 composers right now, I would actually have trouble ranking a lot of the big romantics. Perhaps I need to round out my habits a little better, because right now it's big standards (Monteverdi, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, Berlioz, Wagner, a spot of Mahler/Bruckner) and a wide array of modern/contemporary composers. Strange to think for once that, were it not for the New World symphony and the American quartet, I might not even think to put Dvorak in the top 50 at all. 

TL;DR: I need to watch it, or I'll wake up one morning to find that I've transformed into Lope. Not that I take issue with Lope, but I like to be my own man, and I don't care for denying things once important to me. Unless said thing is called "Opeth" and releases a couple of revolting turds in the guise of "albums".


----------



## ribonucleic

Leopold!


----------



## Blancrocher

I just learned about the "sticky end" of Frantisek Kotzwara:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantisek_Kotzwara


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I thought this was interesting, Dr. Cornel West on Beethoven. I just found out today he's a big fan, especially of the Late Quartets which he brings up in his discussion of philosophy.


----------



## hpowders

Herr Beethoven, you have been maligned on another thread. I'm here to apologize in deference to Your greatness. :tiphat:


----------



## Weston

Are any of you familiar with Paul Dresher? I have just acquired this mp3 album. You may think it is irrelevant, but I need an idea how to categorize it. I have two catalogs of my collection, "classical" and non-classical, but this seems to fall somewhere between the two.

Because I first saw him touring with Terry Riley premiering Riley's piano concerto and his own experimental microtonal works I'm inclined to place him firmly in the classical camp. But much of this album sounds like experimental jam music, maybe avant garde RIO (rock in opposition) a la Univers Zero or 5uus.

Opinions? If you categorized things, where would you place him?





Note: this piece sounds like (gasp!) new age until near the very end. Then it gets really interesting.


----------



## violadude

Weston said:


> Are any of you familiar with Paul Dresher? I have just acquired this mp3 album. You may think it is irrelevant, but I need an idea how to categorize it. I have two catalogs of my collection, "classical" and non-classical, but this seems to fall somewhere between the two.
> 
> Because I first saw him touring with Terry Riley premiering Riley's piano concerto and his own experimental microtonal works I'm inclined to place him firmly in the classical camp. But much of this album sounds like experimental jam music, maybe avant garde RIO (rock in opposition) a la Univers Zero or 5uus.
> 
> Opinions? If you categorized things, where would you place him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: this piece sounds like (gasp!) new age until near the very end. Then it gets really interesting.


The name Paul Dresher sounded extremely familiar to me. So I looked him up on google images and his face looks extremely familiar to me too, but I can't remember what part of my life he is from!! >.< Grrrr


----------



## Weston

violadude said:


> The name Paul Dresher sounded extremely familiar to me. So I looked him up on google images and his face looks extremely familiar to me too, but I can't remember what part of my life he is from!! >.< Grrrr


Sorry, 'dude. Didn't mean to get you haunted by a memory glitch. I hate those.


----------



## violadude

Weston said:


> Sorry, 'dude. Didn't mean to get you haunted by a memory glitch. I hate those.


Still thinking about it haha.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I can get more fun than I'd expect out of just saying the names of composers to myself. Beyond just being cool, it's also neat that the names seem to fit the character of the composer's music. 

Ludwig Van Beethoven is a pretty rocky journey, and I can see myself laughing at how overly brusque the name is were I to be told who it belonged to after witnessing Beethoven chastise some poor violinist or something.

Johann Sebastian Bach is a looming and intimidating one, but I do think the first two names have a sort of formal beauty that fits the meticulous structure of his music, and 'Bach' sounds like an authoritative assertion to me.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart seems to fit too. Every name has an even number of syllables, and I really like the elegance of the flowing vowels in 'deus,' and how 'Ama' reminds me of babytalk and is just fun to say. As for the last name, the letter Z is always neat; it's mystical and mysterious but also vivid and striking.

Franz Joseph Haydn is a welcoming name to my ears. Joseph seems colloquial and names beginning with 'Fr' always sound funny to me for some reason. Franklin, Frederic, Francis, etc, all sound like the everyman in a TV show, maybe even the straight man side character who is a nice guy but always gets blamed for the hijinks of the eccentric personalities around him. And Haydn is just too easy to have pun with, and Haydn is often praised for the wit and humor of his music. A very earthy name I think.

All that said I know this is one of those chicken or the egg things.


----------



## Blancrocher

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-29333741

I just discovered that I would really like to make music in something called a "brain quartet."


----------



## senza sordino

Should we be playing music that a composer has withdrawn? I read in the liner notes that Samuel Barber withdrew his second symphony, destroyed the original manuscript and many copies. And I know that Philip Glass has withdrawn music. Should we be performing, recording and listening to this music against the composers wishes?


----------



## Weston

I'd bet sometimes the composer is too close to the work and doesn't know what is good about it. I've seen this happen in the visual arts frequently. However if we too find fault with the work, we shouldn't be dragging it out into the open.

Then there are works that composers have not withdrawn, but we should do it for them.


----------



## PetrB

senza sordino said:


> Should we be playing music that a composer has withdrawn? I read in the liner notes that Samuel Barber withdrew his second symphony, destroyed the original manuscript and many copies. And I know that Philip Glass has withdrawn music. Should we be performing, recording and listening to this music against the composers wishes?


Generally, I would say, resoundingly, *NO!* Their reasons are that a piece no longer represents that which they believe in, and they do not want what they consider a past work which is terribly weak, or a mis-step, to be in circulation as any part of their overall body of work.

If you think about it, all their works _we_ think good are more often than not due to their highly selective and discerning sensibility, being usually highly demanding about the quality of what they do compose and complete. I'd take their word for it, too, if they said, "that old work is not what I consider good."

I'm not only for respecting those wishes, but for not even considering sketches from their past or relatively incomplete works to see the light of day, where another composer who knows both the craft and is deeply familiar with their work does a completion.

Philip Glass, from what I know, destroyed a number of works before he found the direction and style we now have from him. His prerogative, and I think he was right 'to deprive humanity' of those early student or post-student works.

Ditto for Alan Hovhannes, who likewise had either already found his 'voice,' or possibly before finding his style, destroyed a fair number of early works. Again, I completely agree with the composers action.

Brahms destroyed pieces, and his self-critical faculty was great: I still don't think we're missing anything that Brahms did not want us to hear, and I very much trust Brahms' judgment there as well!

These above-named composers cited are quite sane, i.e. even in the case of Brahms' notorious demand of perfection, I think that same sense is why what we have of Brahms is so nearly uniformly good. _There have been a few notable exceptions_ where it is thought composers have withdrawn and destroyed much of their work which most others, including other musicians and composers, would evaluate as excellent.

These were instances of those composers having an exceptional and truly extreme psychological tic, or a real neurological (and detrimental) condition: Two composers I know of have destroyed the vast majority of what they had already written.

1.) Paul Dukas, composer of _The Sourcerer's Apprentice,_ the opera _Ariadne et Barbbleu,_, the ballet, _La Peri_, wrote much more, songs, symphonic works, "one of the longest piano sonatas on record, running about 45 minutes"* and many other works. _His "tic" was an extreme perfectionism_, (and I think in modern terms we would guess he had very low "self-esteem," too  He nearly also destroyed his full-length ballet _La Peri,_ for which he later wrote the famous extracted introductory _Fanfare._ Of the volume of music he wrote, there are but 15 surviving works, the rest, not completed or fully destroyed.
*http://www.sinfinimusic.com/uk/learn/composers/paul-dukas

2.) Henri Duparc (b. 1848): best known for his fine 17 mélodies, (art songs), those very highly regarded. He is another who destroyed a great amount of his work. He had some sort of true mental illness, though, not 'just a severe neurosis, like Dukas'. Duparc stopped composing completely at the age of 37, destroyed a full-length opera and many other works, but lived to the age of eighty-five (1933.) There are less than forty works left from what seems like a prolific composer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Duparc_%28composer%29

So the answer in those cases I would suppose depends upon their undergoing a psychiatric evaluation, and being legally declared incompetent in order to preserve those works they instead destroyed


----------



## PetrB

Weston said:


> Are any of you familiar with Paul Dresher?
> I need an idea how to categorize it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: this piece sounds like (gasp!) new age until near the very end. Then it gets really interesting.


Yeah. I heard / saw a vid of a musical theater piece which was oddly inflected way in the direction of 'American musical theater, and it was enough like Broooaad waaay (add tons of vibrato, think a kinda sorta baseline cheap sentiment) and that is exactly the sort of thing which completely puts my teeth on edge. It had an air of 'alternative' to it, while sounding really near mainstream Broadway show.

I just found this: 
Dresher ~ _Glimpse from afar_, which puts him in the 'I invent, design, and make my own instruments' category. _Nice piece._




He 'hangs around' with Terry Riley, John Adams knows him and claims to like some of what he makes. Point is, in a way, he's all over the map and does what interests him, has a 'classical' background which is less than slight:
"Received his B.A. in music from the University of California, Berkeley and his M.A. in composition from the University of California, San Diego, where he studied with Robert Erickson, *Roger Reynolds*, *Pauline Oliveros*, and Bernard Rands.

He also studied Ghanaian drumming with C. K. and Kobla Ladzekpo, Hindustani classical music with *Nikhil Banerjee*, and Balinese and Javanese music." ~ Wikipedia [names in bold are 'the big boys and girls of contemporary classical" I know of, and the late Nikhil Banerjee was a supreme musician, a virtuoso sitarist.]

When Steve Reich's _Music for Eighteen Instruments_ first came out on record, it was a musician acquaintance who wrote the liner notes for that piece. He said that it arrived in the store (remember brick 'n' mortar CD stores?) and that he put it on, and customers and staff all stopped where they were standing and everyone was completely captivated. He then said, "Then we had to wonder which bin to put it in." That was in 1978.





Ergo, this dilemma, friend, _is old_ 

Graham Fitkin (generally tagged 'a minimalist') studied under Louis Andriessen, has composed a two piano concerto, other works in a more 'classical' format, 




but more lately, has formed a band, including several Guatemalan and /or Celtic harps, Saxophones, piano, etc. and is writing what sounds like a fusion of classical, minimalist, folk, dance, and big band music.




This has played in 'dressed up concert halls,' and the band played the introductory vamp for the Salisbury music Festival one year.

So, this is the time you are living in!

For any of these guys and ladies, re: your personal tic of 'keeping things separate,' and your CD filing system, _I would file Dresher under *"D,"* Fitkin's music under *"F"*_... and sorta give up on what I think of as a very First-World Problem...

Seriously, there is a little test you can run this music by:
Would I ever, even on the most alternative rock / pop FM or Jazz station, be likely to hear this music aired? // If NO, then your classical collection, dude, under D, someplace in between John Dowland and Jacob Druckman 

Best regards.

P.s. David Lang's piano piece, Wed




Sounds near to new-age-ish, while it is not at all. (Lang won the Pulitzer prize for classical music a few years ago.)


----------



## brianvds

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I can get more fun than I'd expect out of just saying the names of composers to myself. Beyond just being cool, it's also neat that the names seem to fit the character of the composer's music.


You left out the really fun one: Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf. As Stephen Fry humourously pointed out, he is the composer whose name is most often followed by the expression "Gezundheit!"



senza sordino said:


> Should we be playing music that a composer has withdrawn? I read in the liner notes that Samuel Barber withdrew his second symphony, destroyed the original manuscript and many copies. And I know that Philip Glass has withdrawn music. Should we be performing, recording and listening to this music against the composers wishes?


Too bad for the composers: you can't re-bottle a genie. If a composer really wants to withdraw a work he should follow the example of Brahms, and do it properly: in the fireplace.

I wonder if any composer ever wrote a piece called "Genie in a bottle," or "Pandora's box", and then tried to withdraw it...


----------



## ArgumentativeOldGit

senza sordino said:


> Should we be playing music that a composer has withdrawn? I read in the liner notes that Samuel Barber withdrew his second symphony, destroyed the original manuscript and many copies. And I know that Philip Glass has withdrawn music. Should we be performing, recording and listening to this music against the composers wishes?


I'd say "yes". If the composer didn't want the music to be heard, he/she should have thought about that before publishing it. Once it's in out in the open - it's too late: what's done cannot be undone. This applies as much to publication as it does to anything else.

Tolstoy in his old age repudiated _War and Peace_ and _Anna Karenina_. Tough, Leo! - we've got 'em now!

More doubtful morally is the publication of Kafka's _The Trial _and _The Castle_: he never published these, and wanted the manuscripts destroyed. Max Brod, who took the decision to publish them, said that he had made it absolutely clear to Kafka that he had no intention of destroying them - that Kafka knew that if Brod were to be his executor, those manuscripts would be published. Nonetheless, it remains a grey area morally - but I, for one, am glad these books have been published.

But it's not so grey a moral area, I think, if the composer (or the writer) has himself published the work. Once it's out in the public, it cannot be recalled.


----------



## Weston

PetrB said:


> Ergo, this dilemma, friend, _is old_


So am I.



PetrB said:


> So, this is the time you are living in!


Pretty darned exciting times too. I can't complain.



PetrB said:


> Seriously, there is a little test you can run this music by:
> Would I ever, even on the most alternative rock / pop FM or Jazz station, be likely to hear this music aired? // If NO, then your classical collection, dude, under D, someplace in between John Dowland and Jacob Druckman


LOL! That describes about 90% of my collection. So much for breaking it into two unwieldy lists. But classical it is for Dresher then.

Thanks for the thoughtful and labor intensive advice.


----------



## PetrB

Weston said:


> So am I.
> 
> Pretty darned exciting times too. I can't complain.
> 
> LOL! That describes about 90% of my collection. So much for breaking it into two unwieldy lists. But classical it is for Dresher then.
> 
> Thanks for the thoughtful and labor intensive advice.


So, do you have early Laurie Anderson in Alternative Classical, and, after she flat-out annouced "I'm going commercial," then that latter half went into the pop / Jazz half of your filing system? [LOL, II]


----------



## violadude

Not really a thought, but I have "La Dona e Mobile" severely stuck in my head right now.


----------



## dgee

violadude said:


> Not really a thought, but I have "La Dona e Mobile" severely stuck in my head right now.


Ouch - reminds me of the time I played in La Trav and then got a fever and as I tossed and turned in my bed that psychotically jaunty piccollo lick from the beginning was on loop. Nearly worse than the headache and back pain

Another thought - I recently enjoyed a randomly appearing social media thread in which a whole bunch of contemporary composers and contemporary-focused performers (including some fairly well known ones) had rapturous back-and-forth about their favourite Mozart arias and the heights of ecstacy reached thereby. Nice to see people being enthusiastic about music they love!


----------



## violadude

dgee said:


> Ouch - reminds me of the time I played in La Trav and then got a fever and as I tossed and turned in my bed that psychotically jaunty piccollo lick from the beginning was on loop. Nearly worse than the headache and back pain


Oh blech, I hate getting stuck in a "fever obsession".


----------



## TJD

Neither a thought nor a discovery, but an inquiry: I've been scouring the internet for hours trying to find a piece that I heard weeks ago and am having no luck in finding it again.

I would describe it as such: a very light, ephemeral acoustic guitar starts the piece and it gives off a sense of tranquility. Around three minutes in, a soprano vocalist and small string section is added, which transforms the piece into something a bit more sinister and eerie. It's sort of like listening to a good dream turn into a slow-burning nightmare.

As far as I can remember, it was recorded in the 70's by a Spanish or South American composer who, if I saw the picture on YouTube correctly, had dreadlocks.

Any info that points me in the right direction would be great!


----------



## stevens

senza sordino said:


> Should we be playing music that a composer has withdrawn? I read in the liner notes that Samuel Barber withdrew his second symphony, destroyed the original manuscript and many copies. And I know that Philip Glass has withdrawn music. Should we be performing, recording and listening to this music against the composers wishes?


If we didnt, we could not even enjoy reading Kafka and lots of other litterature and music.


----------



## trazom

Not that this truly random, because none of posts here are random by the strictest definition, but I sometimes wonder if people/posters adopt the mannerisms or writing styles of other posters. I've noticed some use very specific phrases they weren't using _before_ interacting with me. At least, not on this website.


----------



## Woodduck

senza sordino said:


> Should we be playing music that a composer has withdrawn? I read in the liner notes that Samuel Barber withdrew his second symphony, destroyed the original manuscript and many copies. And I know that Philip Glass has withdrawn music. Should we be performing, recording and listening to this music against the composers wishes?


We certainly should not want to perform it if the composer is still living (assuming, of course, that we could even do so without his approval). After his death, when he cannot be embarrassed or otherwise harmed by its being brought to light, I think it would be acceptable to present it with the program notation that the work was rejected by the composer, accompanied by a discussion of what is known, or can be deduced, to be the reasons for this. Valuable insights into the creative processes of the composer might be gained, and fine music (as in the case of the Barber symphony) might be saved (of course there would be little reason to play music which is actually of poor quality). As brianvds points out, a composer who is really worried about what people do with his work after his death has the option of not merely "withdrawing" a work (which may be impossible once it is published) but of literally destroying it before the world sees or hears it.

There are cases of composers revising their works and leaving behind both the original and revised versions. Mendelssohn revised his _Violin Concerto_ and his _"Italian" Symphony_, and it's fascinating to hear his first and second thoughts; the revised concerto is the one we normally hear, but the revised symphony is actually considered inferior and is never played (but has been recorded by Jon Eliot Gardiner). Wagner revised the ending of _Der Fliegende Hollander_ and the first act of _Tannhauser_, and in both cases the revisions are superior and were clearly considered so by the composer, but we still sometimes perform the original versions. I don't know how Mendelssohn and Wagner would feel about our listening in on what they clearly considered unsatisfactory works, but my point is that they feel nothing about it now while we benefit from both the music and what it tells us about two great composers.

As for sketches of incomplete works being "completed" by others, I see nothing wrong with programming a work by "Mozart/Sussmayr," "Mahler/Cooke," or "Elgar/Payne." I find the latter work - Anthony Payne's "completion" of Elgar's _Third Symphony_ - an invaluable glimpse of new directions in Elgar's style and a very moving experience. I'm grateful that Elgar and his heirs did not destroy the sketches.


----------



## Figleaf

violadude said:


> Not really a thought, but I have "La Dona e Mobile" severely stuck in my head right now.


Me too- my CD player is dying and if I try to skip a track it seizes up and refuses to play the CD. So if a favourite recital disc has that aria, there's no avoiding it! Here's the performance in question- the piano accompaniment and the French translation that doesn't quite fit the music help to give it character


----------



## Figleaf

stevens said:


> If we didnt, we could not even enjoy reading Kafka and lots of other litterature and music.


Virgil's famous last words were supposedly 'Burn the Aeneid!' which, to the annoyance of schoolchildren for the last two millennia, was not respected... personally, if I'd been his secretary I'd have kept Book 4 ( the Dido and Aeneas bit) and incinerated most of the rest.:devil:


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Is there anything more annoying in ordering things online than receiving the correct CD-Case but the CD itself is completely different?! Argh!

I "received" my Beethoven Piano Concertos Nos. 4 & 5 yesterday in the mail (Wilhelm Kempff, Berliner Philharmoniker) only to open it up and see that the actual CD was Bernstein's NYPO Beethoven 5th Symphony and Schubert 8th Symphony (CBS Records: Masterworks)!


----------



## Woodduck

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Is there anything more annoying in ordering things online than receiving the correct CD-Case but the CD itself is completely different?! Argh!
> 
> I "received" my Beethoven Piano Concertos Nos. 4 & 5 yesterday in the mail (Wilhelm Kempff, Berliner Philharmoniker) only to open it up and see that the actual CD was Bernstein's NYPO Beethoven 5th Symphony and Schubert 8th Symphony (CBS Records: Masterworks)!
> 
> View attachment 53351


In buying online, maybe not. But try picking up a CD at a thrift store, being in a hurry, forgetting to look at the disc, driving 30 miles to your home, opening the case eagerly, and finding it empty.

I did it once.

Once.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Woodduck said:


> In buying online, maybe not. But try picking up a CD at a thrift store, being in a hurry, forgetting to look at the disc, driving 30 miles to your home, opening the case eagerly, and finding it empty.
> 
> I did it once.
> 
> Once.


Used to happen to me all the time at boot sales. I've got wise and always check now.


----------



## musicrom

----------- sorry this was just a stupid question, i was more thinking to myself --------------


----------



## Chronochromie

I dislike when on a CD the name of the performer is bigger than that of the composer.


----------



## Woodduck

MagneticGhost said:


> Used to happen to me all the time at boot sales. I've got wise and always check now.


Is a boot sale what we colonists call a yard or garage sale?


----------



## Woodduck

Der Leiermann said:


> I dislike when on a CD the name of the performer is bigger than that of the composer.


God yes. It degrades classical music to the level of pop, which insults not only the composer but my personal sense of elitism.


----------



## Mahlerian

Woodduck said:


> God yes. It degrades classical music to the level of pop, which insults not only the composer but my personal sense of elitism.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Woodduck said:


> Is a boot sale what we colonists call a yard or garage sale?


Pretty much. Except we all gather in a field with our car *boots** open, selling our rubbish. 

*That's the Trunk to you guys.


----------



## hpowders

Fascinating comparing recordings of the same work, even the same work conducted several times by the same conductor.
In comparing the two Leonard Bernstein performances of the Mahler 6, the latter Vienna Philharmonic performances packs a much more intense emotional wallop in toto than his first recording with the NY Philharmonic.


----------



## Woodduck

Mahlerian said:


>


I caught on radio Lang Lang's performance of the Horowitz version of Liszt's _2nd Hungarian Rhapsody_. It was the most insensitive, unidiomatic, noisy, godawful assault on a keyboard I hope never to hear the like of again.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> I caught on radio Lang Lang's performance of the Horowitz version of Liszt's _2nd Hungarian Rhapsody_. It was the most insensitive, unidiomatic, noisy, godawful assault on a keyboard I hope never to hear the like of again.


I read a review of one of his Beethoven Piano Concertos with the New York Philharmonic a couple of years ago in the _New Criterion_. The reviewer said that Lang Lang was giggling and at times conducting into the thin air with the conductor-- who was the real conductor, of course.


----------



## Woodduck

To be fair, I think I've heard him play well, but I can't remember what. Growth is always possible.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> To be fair, I think I've heard him play well, but I can't remember what. Growth is always possible.


I was merely analyzing and describing. _;D_


----------



## Skilmarilion

Re: Lang Lang, I think it's always best to just accept him for what he is -- a crowd-pleasing eccentric with an unimaginable talent level. No, he will not be remembered for his refined technique and interpretations, and nor should he be. 

He's one of the better things going for classical music today, imo.


----------



## hpowders

It must be so depressing, composing contemporary classical music for a living.

Last century we had an acknowledged American great, William Schuman, composing the impressive third through tenth symphonies, and one wonders, why he even bothered! Nobody plays them anymore in concert halls. Dead music!
And this was an acknowledged GREAT composer!!

So what do today's contemporary classical composers have to look forward to? More dead music?


----------



## brotagonist

^ There are people right here on TC who have discovered him. I had never heard of him until 10 months ago, more or less, and he is now a composer that rings a bell, so to speak, saying that I need to listen some more... and I will, too! I liked what I heard and might even buy some of it one day.

Dead music? How does one make people want to listen to it? The vast majority are not interested in 'serious' music, just the passing fads... but there are a few of us around who like what contemporary composers are writing


----------



## hpowders

brotagonist said:


> ^ There are people right here on TC who have discovered him. I had never heard of him until 10 months ago, more or less, and he is now a composer that rings a bell, so to speak, saying that I need to listen some more... and I will, too! I liked what I heard and might even buy some of it one day.
> 
> Dead music? How does one make people want to listen to it? The vast majority are not interested in 'serious' music, just the passing fads... but there are a few of us around who like what contemporary composers are writing


For me music that is acknowledged to be worthy but is no longer ever played in concert halls or on the radio is practically dead music. The fact that I just played Schuman's Fourth Symphony which I did and wrote about in Current Listening hardly provides it with a discernible pulse.

This is why my contempt is barely disguised when I see another Beethoven Poll on TC.

Are we really THAT conservative???


----------



## Figleaf

Der Leiermann said:


> I dislike when on a CD the name of the performer is bigger than that of the composer.


Doesn't bother me, assuming I even notice the font sizes used! I don't get the cult of composers anyway- they are just a bunch of dead white men. (As are 99% of the singers I revere- but they have left us their glorious voices, which makes them real, living presences, not just names in a history book!)


----------



## Janspe

I heard Ginastera's harp concerto live tonight and it was a mesmerizing experience - I have never realized that the harp can be such a versatile, imaginative and colorful solo instrument. The music kept me attentive from the beginning to the end, and in addition to that, I had a very good place in the hall, allowing me to see the harpist's flying hands very clearly. Yes, virtuosity is cool. 

Sometimes I hate myself for listening to such a narrow repertoire - obviously there's _so much more_ to be discovered...


----------



## brotagonist

hpowders said:


> For me music that is acknowledged to be worthy but is no longer ever played in concert halls or on the radio is practically dead music. ...Listening hardly provides it with a discernible pulse.
> 
> This is why my contempt is barely disguised when I see another Beethoven Poll on TC.
> 
> Are we really THAT conservative???


I guess I know what you mean; however, I think it is also true that vastly more CM is consumed as recordings than is performed live. In my own case, I haven't been to a live concert in about 25 years (and have only ever attended perhaps a dozen classical concerts). I listen on the average 4 hours or more a day. There is no way I could afford to attend even one concert a month. For about $10, I have a 'concert' on CD that I can reattend as often as I wish whenever I wish. I think the problem is that the major labels/orchestras are not recording William Schuman's works. I wonder if we here on TC are a big enough force, collectively, to get those that could make it happen to listen to our wants?

I never thought of Beethoven as conservative  I enjoy his music immensely, but I also listen to dozens of other composers on an equally regular basis, as well as hearing unfamiliar composers, too. Still, you would likely find my interests limited to the rather famous  I'm still exploring, but I am also wanting to hear the music I know I love. My free time is limited. I think you need to expect the preoccupation with the most well-known names on a forum such as this one. Novices just discovering CM want to share and expand on their exuberance. Beethoven's music is a common starting point for many. But I think this forum offers the opportunity to share and discuss more than just the well-known.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I think we need TC member, science, to make another one of those comprehensive anti-snob posts again, as well as another blog post. Only this time he should add a special section for *condescension*, *belittling*, and *dismissal*.

From science's blog post


> In the past I'd aspired to participate in discussions of classical music as an equal among equals, and to see all other participants treated the same way.
> 
> As a result of this desire, I suffered. I saw people who didn't know the right way to talk about classical music treated with condescension, and it angered me...


Sincerely,


----------



## scratchgolf

The most awarded Grammy winners in history are as follows..

1. Sir Georg Solti (31)
2. Quincy Jones/Allison Krauss (27)
4. Pierre Boulez (26)
5. Vladimir Horowitz (25)
6. Stevie Wonder/U2 (22)
8. John Williams/Kanye West (21)

Where the Hell are the Gatlin Brothers?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Basses are written Es without alternative notes? Cruel composers.
Edit: Es above Middle C, that is. Isn't the range suppose to be a fifth below tenor? Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## maestro267

I'm discovering a few 100-minute works lately, divided into two parts, where the first part is less than 40 minutes, and the second part is around or over an hour. The Dream of Gerontius (38+59), A Mass of Life (33+66) and La Transfiguration de Notre Seigneur Jesus Christ (35+64).


----------



## maestro267

I've never come across a work called "Cello Concerto No. *3*" before. 2 always seems to be the standard number for those who even bother to write them. Also, five seems to be the standard number for piano concertos. Of course, as with the Curse of the Ninth, there are exceptions to this, but there aren't many works called Piano Concerto No. 6.


----------



## hpowders

Random thought: Is there any composer who did tender nostalgia better than Aaron Copland?


----------



## Skilmarilion

hpowders said:


> Random thought: Is there any composer who did tender nostalgia better than *Aaron Copland*?


That's an odd way of spelling Sergei Rachmaninov. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Skilmarilion said:


> That's an odd way of spelling Sergei Rachmaninov. :tiphat:


Different accents!


----------



## Cheyenne

hpowders said:


> Random thought: Is there any composer who did tender nostalgia better than Aaron Copland?


The answer is no.

...
Not Rachmaninov for me.


----------



## MagneticGhost

maestro267 said:


> I've never come across a work called "Cello Concerto No. *3*" before. 2 always seems to be the standard number for those who even bother to write them. Also, five seems to be the standard number for piano concertos. Of course, as with the Curse of the Ninth, there are exceptions to this, but there aren't many works called Piano Concerto No. 6.


Same goes for Tuba Concerto No.2


----------



## worov

What about this one ?


----------



## hpowders

Cheyenne said:


> The answer is no.
> 
> ...
> Not Rachmaninov for me.


Of course I agree. Schmalz (Rachmaninov) is NOT tender nostalgia!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

hpowders said:


> Random thought: Is there any composer who did tender nostalgia better than Aaron Copland?


Sir Edward Elgar, maybe?


----------



## maestro267

Thought #1: Moeran's Cello Concerto is in B minor, my favourite key.

Thought #2: Strauss' Don Quixote can be said to be in three different forms simultaneously. It's a cello concerto, a tone poem and a theme & variations work.


----------



## muzik

maestro267 said:


> Of course, as with the Curse of the Ninth, there are exceptions to this, but there aren't many works called Piano Concerto No. 6.


What is the curse of the ninth? has it got anything to do with Mahler's ninth?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

maestro267 said:


> Thought #1: Moeran's Cello Concerto is in B minor, my favourite key.
> 
> Thought #2: Strauss' Don Quixote can be said to be in three different forms simultaneously. It's a cello concerto, a tone poem and a theme & variations work.


That beats Rachmaninov's _Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini_, then. That's only two forms.


----------



## DavidA

muzik said:


> What is the curse of the ninth? has it got anything to do with Mahler's ninth?


People tended to be suspicious of the ninth as not many people post-LvB got beyond it. Schubert, Mahler and Bruckner all died after writing nine.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

DavidA said:


> People tended to be suspicious of the ninth as not many people post-LvB got beyond it. Schubert, Mahler and Bruckner all died after writing nine.


It's scaaaaaary...


----------



## omega

I'm sure I'm not the first one here who has heard of this:
Documentary: Some of Bach's great masterpieces were composed by his wife (Washington Post)

?!


----------



## tdc

omega said:


> I'm sure I'm not the first one here who has heard of this:
> Documentary: Some of Bach's great masterpieces were composed by his wife (Washington Post)
> 
> ?!


Yes, this theory has been around for a while. As far as I can tell its certainly possible, but seems unlikely. I think it is more likely that she influenced some compositions and perhaps came up with some of the thematic material, as opposed to full-out composing them. The evidence is just not enough to say for sure though. Having played some of the material from the Cello Suites (on guitar) myself I can't say I agree with the individual in that article who feels that the music is so different from Bach's other works. It still seems like Bach to me - but again elements of the composition certainly could've been influenced a lot by her. Its really just speculation, as there is not enough evidence to make a definite conclusion here.


----------



## Figleaf

'Behind every great man, there is a woman'. I bet that sort of unofficial collaboration happened a lot, even if it's difficult to prove now.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

- In the past month, I've come to favor chamber music (especially String Ensembles) heavily over symphonic/orchestral music (I'm not really sure why), so my next project is to go down this list and listen to every single work I've yet to hear. Thanks TC for a great list! 

I'm starting with Brahms' String Quintet, Op. 111


----------



## SeptimalTritone

DiesIraeVIX said:


> - In the past month, I've come to favor chamber music (especially String Ensembles) heavily over symphonic/orchestral music (I'm not really sure why), so my next project is to go down this list and listen to every single work I've yet to hear. Thanks TC for a great list!
> 
> I'm starting with Brahms' String Quintet, Op. 111


That list sucks, for two reasons:

a) Beethoven op 130+133 is number 2.
b) The great bogeyman has only one work on there.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

SeptimalTritone said:


> That list sucks, for two reasons:
> 
> a) Beethoven op 130+133 is number 2.
> b) The great bogeyman has only one work on there.


Haha, perhaps it should be No. 1 on account of the _Grosse Fuge_, but the Schubert _Quintet_ is absolutely deserving as well. Personally, my No. 1 would be Beethoven SQ #14 or #15 (Op. 131 and Op. 132).

Yes, I'm right there with you, I would have liked to have seen more Schoenberg on there, perhaps the SQ in D Major (1897). And how is _Verklärte Nacht_ not on the list? Oh well.


----------



## senza sordino

DiesIraeVIX said:


> - In the past month, I've come to favor chamber music (especially String Ensembles) heavily over symphonic/orchestral music (I'm not really sure why), so my next project is to go down this list and listen to every single work I've yet to hear. Thanks TC for a great list!
> 
> I'm starting with Brahms' String Quintet, Op. 111


I once read a letter in either BBC music magazine or Gramophone by a listener who said something similar. He was tired of listening to big symphonic works because there were too many notes. It's not the duration, but too many notes at the same time. Interesting I thought.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

senza sordino said:


> I once read a letter in either BBC music magazine or Gramophone by a listener who said something similar. He was tired of listening to big symphonic works because there were too many notes. It's not the duration, but too many notes at the same time. Interesting I thought.


Perhaps it's what you say, sometimes it's just a bit much to listen to symphony after symphony, too many notes! There is an intimacy in chamber music that I'm really connecting with right now. Another possible factor, I've been listening to orchestral works non-stop for over a year and only fairly recently have I come to discover great chamber music. It might just be a breath of fresh air.


----------



## trazom

Figleaf said:


> 'Behind every great man, there is a woman'.


And behind her is his wife.

Have there been any theories about Albert Einstein's wife coming up with all of his equations yet?


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

About a year ago I tried really hard to like Mozart's piano concertos and they just didn't click. It was really frustrating because I love Mozart's operas and late symphonies and I couldn't figure out how this same style of music that I loved could acquire banality just by jumping into another genre.

Recently I decided to try again and I did everything I could to give the music a chance. I discovered HIPs and I thought that was the secret, after all Gardiner's recording of 20 was the only concerto I liked, but they were still boring. Then I discovered that I really like Mozart's string quartets and soon after I assumed that I would probably like the piano concertos arranged for string quartet; after all, the grace of Mozart is definitely better suited to chamber music anyway right? That blaring orchestra is just overbearing and annoying what was Mozart thinking!? Then I found some string quartet arrangements and those were boring too. Then I found some _even more_ historically accurate performances of them, and it was still boring.

Then I just hummed the melodies to myself throughout the day to get a feel for them, to no avail. I danced to the music even though it didn't inspire me to, hoping that it would force a connection between my mind and the music's kinetic energy, but I just made myself tired doing that.

Then I cleared everything from my ipod except the concertos and listened to them on repeat at every opportunity for a few days, and just as an experiment I continued to listen well beyond the numbness of boredom just to see what would happen and unsurprisingly more boredom followed, and then revulsion. Then I used a program to slow down the tempos by 60 percent and then I listened to those for awhile, hoping that the inevitable relief I would feel upon returning to the regular versions would somehow translate to fancy for the pieces in general, but they were still boring. Then I sped up the tempos for the same experiment and that didn't work either. Then I just listened as intently as I could, with more focus than I probably ever have, and it was still boring.

Then I read this beautiful quote from Einstein about how the 27th concerto stands at the gates of eternity, how it sounds like peaceful resignation and the coming of the last spring, and how it complements the despair of the 40th symphony with quiet dignity in the face of death, and other stuff. But then I listened to it again and it was still boring.

I surrendered again and just revisited Don Giovanni and Marriage of Figaro so I could finally get the Mozart fix I'd been craving and after that I figured hey, why not try the concertos again while my brain is in the mood for Wolfie, and it actually worked! How strange. Just yesterday I found them unbearably dull but priming my ears with the opera unlocked the magic for some reason; I found them bursting with that same dramatic energy that I feel listening to the overtures. Taste is a strange thing. I remember a time when I used to bemoan all the singing in Mozart's operas because I felt it was the only thing keeping me from loving all that beautiful music in the background.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Anyone noticed that some of the pictures posted on 'Current listening' are getting to be so big that you'll need a wide-screen TV (or a cinema screen) to view them?

I thought there was a 160x160 pixel recommendation for posting pictures


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> Anyone noticed that some of the pictures posted on 'Current listening' are getting to be so big that you'll need a wide-screen TV (or a cinema screen) to view them?
> 
> I thought there was a 160x160 pixel recommendation for posting pictures


Not mine. I always have the pictures tastefully sized. :angel:


----------



## MagneticGhost

I just nick mine from Amazon. Sometimes they come out big, sometimes small. All from seemingly the same source material. 

Don't mind big pretty pics though


----------



## hpowders

Figleaf said:


> 'Behind every great man, there is a woman'. I bet that sort of unofficial collaboration happened a lot, even if it's difficult to prove now.


Hold on, I'm writing this down...
"Behind every great man


----------



## maestro267

Bartók is an absolute master of orchestation! Listening to Bluebeard's Castle for the first time yesterday and there are some wonderful touches of orchestration in that work. The celesta arpeggios when the third door is opened, revealing the Duke's treasure chamber. And then the huge chords of full orchestra, organ and offstage brass when the fifth door is opened.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Headphone Hermit said:


> Anyone noticed that some of the pictures posted on 'Current listening' are getting to be so big that you'll need a wide-screen TV (or a cinema screen) to view them?


I agree that this may be problematic, unless of course they are album covers of Janine Jansen, Julia Fischer, Alice Sara Ott, Alison Balsam ... and any other variations on such a theme. :tiphat:


----------



## MagneticGhost

I think Bruckner's 7th symphony has just reclaimed the top spot off of No.8 after 20 years in my favourite Bruckner symphony head-chart. 
That Adagio is so all encompassing. I'm getting goosebumps on my goosebumps!!!


----------



## Figleaf

Enrico Caruso's love letters just went under the hammer:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/...etters-reveal-passionate-complicated-affairs/

He had a pretty bizarre love life- fiancées all over the place, none of whom he married (I wouldn't class Dorothy among the 'fiancées' since that was such a whirlwind romance).

Anyone with roughly £250,000 to spare (not me sadly!) could have picked themselves up some pretty interesting reading matter...


----------



## Figleaf

Figleaf said:


> Enrico Caruso's love letters just went under the hammer:
> 
> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/...etters-reveal-passionate-complicated-affairs/
> 
> He had a pretty bizarre love life- fiancées all over the place, none of whom he married (I wouldn't class Dorothy among the 'fiancées' since that was such a whirlwind romance).
> 
> Anyone with roughly £250,000 to spare (not me sadly!) could have picked themselves up some pretty interesting reading matter...


Correction: the sale is on the 19th November, so plenty of time to put in your bids 

Also, it sounds like there is more to this collection than love letters. Bank statements and bills (dull but invaluable to future biographers) and a letter from a girl I'd never heard of addressing Caruso as 'Papa'. Just goes to show that even with such a well documented life as Caruso's, there is always the possibility that more evidence will show up.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...2a48-ad45-4fbc-9769-942b45028ace&page=1&lid=1


----------



## senza sordino

The pictures of albums and CDs on the currently listening thread can also be quite small or difficult to read. I read everything here on my iPad mini. When people only post pictures with no explanatory text and I can't always read the words on the picture, I don't always know what you're listening to.


----------



## tdc

maestro267 said:


> Bartók is an absolute master of orchestation! Listening to Bluebeard's Castle for the first time yesterday and there are some wonderful touches of orchestration in that work. The celesta arpeggios when the third door is opened, revealing the Duke's treasure chamber. And then the huge chords of full orchestra, organ and offstage brass when the fifth door is opened.


This was exactly my impression when I first listened to it - also during the _Lake of Tears_ movement, the way the orchestra is used to project those intricate shimmering effects - that work really broadened my conception of what an orchestra can do.


----------



## Weston

senza sordino said:


> The pictures of albums and CDs on the currently listening thread can also be quite small or difficult to read. I read everything here on my iPad mini. When people only post pictures with no explanatory text and I can't always read the words on the picture, I don't always know what you're listening to.


Yes. I have to just skip over those posts. I won't bother to click and enlarge only to find out it's Gilbert and Sullivan or some such. But no harm done either way I suppose.


----------



## JACE

MagneticGhost said:


> I think Bruckner's 7th symphony has just reclaimed the top spot off of No.8 after 20 years in my favourite Bruckner symphony head-chart.
> That Adagio is so all encompassing. I'm getting goosebumps on my goosebumps!!!


Bruckner's Seventh is my favorite too.


----------



## hpowders

Yes. I would say the Bruckner 7th is his best. Nothing beats the sweep of the theme opening the first movement.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Hpowders has just clicked 'like' to my post of Britten's Cello Suites on 'Current Listening' - but I'm sure he did so *before* I posted it! :lol:

The man must be supernatural


----------



## Weston

Whither the baton?

And why it's knitting needle shape? Why not something more visible, like a flag or a laser pointer or sonic screwdriver or something? 

Boulez conducts without one. Does it really have a musical purpose, or is it merely an emblem of intimidation? A captain's ceremonial cutlass?


----------



## KenOC

The baton is obviously a mini-phallic symbol. Nothing to do with conductors' endowments, I hope. In any event, conductors have read of Lully's death and naturally want to avoid that sort of thing. 

I read here recently of a famous conductor who was noted for poking himself with his baton, at one point sticking it through his arm and requiring medical treatment. Does this suggest a market for safety batons with rounded rubber tips? Another marketing idea: Stun batons, with batteries in the thick end, that can double as cattle prods for inattentive players. Toscanini would have loved it!


----------



## hpowders

I'm not much for Bach on the piano, but I have to admit I enjoyed WTC Book One performed by both Keith Jarrett and the young András Schiff.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I'm going to take a break from classical music for as long as I can to see if I can revitalize my excitement for it. These damn earphones have me listening to music pretty much every free hour of my day and I think it desensitizes me at least a little bit. I always love those instances where you return to music after even a week of deprivation and everything, even the stuff you don't really like, sounds amazing. I've always wanted to limit my listening to just a few sessions every month for this reason.

Come to think of it, the last time I really experienced that was several years ago after a hospital stay and the song I spent my harvested appetite on was Outkast's The Way You Move...


----------



## hpowders

The woman whom I am currently shacked up with and who is oblivious to all things classical came upon me in my music listening room where I was engaged with WTC as recorded by Kenneth Weiss on harpsichord and she says to me, "sounds like it was recorded in a closet".

Anyone remember where I put the cyanide capsule?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Occasionally Bartók sounds exactly like Vaughan Williams.


----------



## senza sordino

My parents are coming over for lunch today. I always struggle to find some music to play on the stereo. My mother knows her classical music, she is responsible for my musical appreciation. But we don't really have the same taste in music. She prefers lighter music, no heavy symphonic music, but she doesn't like string quartets. And no German music and no singing, she prefers English, French or American, and some Russian music. Preferably early 20th Century. 

Lots to choose from, I know. But she is fickle. la Donne e mobile is a perfect description. 

I have music to play, but I spend a lot of time thinking about what to play, more time than their actual visit, it seems.  Why do I worry when they haven't come to listen to music but only for a simple visit?

But a few years ago, she heard some music on my stereo, "oh that's lovely" she said. It was Mahler's Fourth Symphony, fourth movement. Singing and Austrian music. Slap my head.


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> The woman whom I am currently shacked up with and who is oblivious to all things classical came upon me in my music listening room where I was engaged with WTC as recorded by Kenneth Weiss on harpsichord and she says to me, "sounds like it was recorded in a closet".
> 
> Anyone remember where I put the cyanide capsule?


Oooooouuuuuccccchhhh. That's like a kick in the...


----------



## JACE

senza sordino said:


> But a few years ago, she heard some music on my stereo, "oh that's lovely" she said. It was Mahler's Fourth Symphony, fourth movement. Singing and Austrian music. Slap my head.


It's nice to connect over music. I bet that's why you're thinking about it. 

I have some musical "overlap" with my parents -- mostly my father. But it's not classical; instead it's jazz. When he comes over, I think about what I might play that he'll enjoy. None of the "out there" stuff.


----------



## Centropolis

Do I need a math or music degree to enjoy Bach's music? I tried and tried......the only thing I can enjoy are the cello suites.


----------



## JACE

Centropolis said:


> Do I need a math or music degree to enjoy Bach's music? I tried and tried......the only thing I can enjoy are the cello suites.


Maybe Bach isn't for you. As Stuart Smalley would say, "That's... O.K."

(Apologies if you don't know who Stuart Smalley is!)


----------



## senza sordino

JACE said:


> Maybe Bach isn't for you. As Stuart Smalley would say, "That's... O.K."
> 
> (Apologies if you don't know who Stuart Smalley is!)


He's a US Senator isn't he?


----------



## Mahlerian

Centropolis said:


> Do I need a math or music degree to enjoy Bach's music? I tried and tried......the only thing I can enjoy are the cello suites.


I'm not aware of any music that requires a degree in either math or music for enjoyment. Why don't you leave Bach aside for a while and come back to him later?


----------



## clavichorder

Centropolis said:


> Do I need a math or music degree to enjoy Bach's music? I tried and tried......the only thing I can enjoy are the cello suites.


Berlioz didn't like Bach either. You are in good company. Try Berlioz.


----------



## JACE

senza sordino said:


> He's a US Senator isn't he?


Yep.

Al Franken, senator.










Al Franken, as _Saturday Night Live_ character Stuart Smalley (from the early 1990s).


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Centropolis said:


> Do I need a math or music degree to enjoy Bach's music? I tried and tried......the only thing I can enjoy are the cello suites.


Perhaps if you first pay attention to the individuals lines rather than the texture you'll discover plenty of 'cello suites' in any given Bach. Maybe some of the less congested sections of his pieces, this one being quite popular:


----------



## dgee

I'm too lazy to do it but we should probs have a Bernhard Gander composer guestbook - clever chap from Germany with an interest in eccentricity and pop stylings. Speaking of wacky guys are we all over H K Gruber too? Something for those interested in new music


----------



## cbrian

Richannes Wrahms said:


>


I've always found it baffling that people are able to read C clefs just like that.


----------



## omega

ESA published the sound of comet Churyumov-Gerasimenko (aka Chury) (frequence multiplied by approx. 10.000 times)
"A Singing Comet - ESA"


----------



## Weston

cbrian said:


> I've always found it baffling that people are able to read C clefs just like that.


Yes, I'm uncomfortable with C clefs, but not as uncomfortable as I am with those weird Bb or Eb brass and woodwind instruments. Now, those are just -- evil.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> Yes, I'm uncomfortable with C clefs, but not as uncomfortable as I am with those weird Bb or Eb brass and woodwind instruments. Now, those are just -- evil.


Did you know that you can actually read some transposing instruments as if they were C clefs? A B-flat instrument puts C where D is on the treble clef, which is the same position as for a tenor clef, and an F instrument puts C where G is on the treble clef, like a soprano clef.


----------



## Piwikiwi

Weston said:


> Yes, I'm uncomfortable with C clefs, but not as uncomfortable as I am with those weird Bb or Eb brass and woodwind instruments. Now, those are just -- evil.


I can still sight transpose concert key parts into Bb parts because I used to play tenor saxophone:')


----------



## cbrian

Weston said:


> Yes, I'm uncomfortable with C clefs, but not as uncomfortable as I am with those weird Bb or Eb brass and woodwind instruments. Now, those are just -- evil.


I just can't transpose... I'm just as good as tenor clef as I am with bass and treble though. I can read comfortably up to three ledger lines. I'm currently learning the alto clef, and it's not as hard as I thought it would be. You just have to force yourself to read it.



Mahlerian said:


> Did you know that you can actually read some transposing instruments as if they were C clefs? A B-flat instrument puts C where D is on the treble clef, which is the same position as for a tenor clef, and an F instrument puts C where G is on the treble clef, like a soprano clef.


Right, but harder done than said (in my opinion)


----------



## hpowders

In this highly competitive field of Mahler Symphony performances, why do them with a youth orchestra? 
I just listened to the Mahler 5 with a youth orchestra conducted by Rudolf Barshai, supposedly the best one of its kind in the world, but it is obviously way, way, way below the Concertgebouw, Vienna and Berlin Philharmonics.

What's the point? I listened once and I give it a 6 out of 10.

I'll stay with Pierre Boulez and the Vienna Philharmonic.

Why?

Because I can!!!


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> In this highly competitive field of Mahler Symphony performances, why do them with a youth orchestra?
> I just listened to the Mahler 5 with a youth orchestra conducted by Rudolf Barshai, supposedly the best one of its kind in the world, but it is obviously way, way, way below the Concertgebouw, Vienna and Berlin Philharmonics.
> 
> What's the point? I listened once and I give it a 6 out of 10.
> 
> I'll stay with Pierre Boulez and the Vienna Philharmonic.


hp, I read all those positive reviews too -- but I was skeptical.

You've now confirmed that my skepticism was on the mark!


----------



## fjf

Centropolis said:


> Do I need a math or music degree to enjoy Bach's music? I tried and tried......the only thing I can enjoy are the cello suites.


Give Bach time. I could never stand Beethoven string quartets (found them strident) until very recently, and now I am enjoying the late ones a lot. Sometimes you need to mature, or age...like good wine...When the time is right, you'll discover that Bach is a miracle...


----------



## Mahlerian

cbrian said:


> Right, but harder done than said (in my opinion)


True enough; even knowing that "trick" I still have to think of transposing lines in terms of "A - sixth degree - of B-flat is G..."


----------



## MoonlightSonata

fjf said:


> Give Bach time. I could never stand Beethoven string quartets (found them strident) until very recently, and now I am enjoying the late ones a lot. Sometimes you need to mature, or age...like good wine...When the time is right, you'll discover that Bach is a miracle...


I remember playing Bach in my exams and thinking "This is boring, it's just arpeggios." In time I realised that, as you say, Bach is a miracle.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Britten's music is essentially a distilled, more refined version of Bax's.


----------



## hpowders

MoonlightSonata said:


> I remember playing Bach in my exams and thinking "This is boring, it's just arpeggios." In time I realised that, as you say, Bach is a miracle.


Yeah, like the Prelude No. 1 in C, WTC Book One. So simple. So beautiful. So "genius".


----------



## MagneticGhost

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Britten's music is essentially a distilled, more refined version of Bax's.


Does that mean that Bax's music is essentially a more raucous, wider ranging version of Britten's. Cos if that's the case - I need to go and listen to some


----------



## mirepoix

Madam doesn't enjoy the music that I do. And she's not obliged to. However she's just come in from work and is almost _flustered_ -

"You listen to string quartets don't you?"
Yes, sometimes.
"Did you know Barber's adagio for strings was originally a string quartet?"
Yes.
"And do we (I loved the 'we') have this CD?"
No. 
*semi-pout with furrowed brow* then -
"A makeup artist let me hear it and I really, really, really, *really liked it. We should get it."

I'm now wondering if I'm witnessing the birth of an interest or simply a passing whim.

(*I think I might have omitted a 'really' there.)


----------



## maestro267

I bought a disc of choral works by Herbert Howells today, which includes a Te Deum, sung in English. This setting is only 9 minutes long. Havergal Brian set the same text (albeit in Latin) as Part 2 of his Symphony No. 1, and his takes over an hour to perform. Amazing, the difference between these two.


----------



## Cosmos

Schnittke's Suite in the Old Style for piano and violin! I didn't expect such an accessible work from him!


----------



## clavichorder

We are so obsessed with ranking symphonies. The same sort of attention could be paid to the baroque concerto grosso and we might have interesting results. Granted, there isn't the same apparent diversity as there are with symphonies of the romantic and modern, but there is still individuality of composers styles that varies even within their own body of work. Its nice that we have those on the forum interested in Muffat, Locatelli, Corelli, Geminiani, Handel, A. Scarlatti, and others who worked with the form. But it would be really interesting to look into all the individual pieces, and figure out what the standouts are. The problem is, many are coming from an angle of romantic era preference and the outputs may seem very even. They are, but some are probably better than others, and it'd be neat to see if any consensus forms on that upon careful inspection. 

Right now, I'm listening to Georg Muffat's Concerto Grosso number 7 in E major. I really like it, but I am unable to decide if its a standout or not.


----------



## tdc

Still been listening to a lot of Jean Langlais organ music. I find this music very tasteful and for lack of a better word "magical". His use of harmony and the way he structures his pieces just really works for me. I find much of his work inspires a sense of serenity and reflection, yet there is something simultaneously very intense, lively and spontaneous in his music.


----------



## hpowders

Last night I was dragged to a benefit church concert for organ, several vocal soloists and a violin soloist.

The church was half filled-more than I expected.

Bach, Albinoni, as well as some contemporary composers, were on the program.

The violinist was painfully out of tune. The vocal soloists were wobbly. The organ was ear-splittingly too loud.

At the end the priest talked about all the "wonderful music" we had the opportunity to hear.

My thought was if this is the typical exposure of average folks to classical music, no wonder they hate it and want nothing to do with it. The performances were strictly amateurish, in the worst sense of the word.

I felt really bad. A real shame!

Those folks deserved to hear great music played wonderfully-in tune and with gusto!!


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I discovered that Karajan played the harpsichord.
I also discovered that Louis Armstrong played St. Louis Blues with New York Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

First, the good. I just got home from my very first live symphony performance. Beethoven's 5th. Performed by Andres Orozco-Estrada and the Houston Symphony.
http://www.houstonsymphony.org/tickets/production/detail?id=5671

- *Gabriela Lena Frank*: _Three Latin American Dances_ 
- *Édouard Lalo*: _Symphonie espagnole_ (it's considered a Violin Concerto) - *Soloist - Frank Huang*
- *Beethoven*: _Symphony No. 5_

The bad news is that while the performance of Beethoven's 5th was pretty good, the acoustics were sorely lacking. The volume was underwhelming, certain instruments just did not carry their full power. It was especially noticeable in some parts more than others. The harmonies and contrapuntal sections suffered the most, as well as the _power_ of the main motif, short-short-short-long. I'm disappointed but I still greatly enjoyed the experience, as well as the first pieces by Gabriela Lena Frank (who was there in the audience) and Lalo.


----------



## GioCar

^^^

Sorry to hear you have been disappointed.

Anyway, this is possibly the most striking differences between a live performance and an "at home" listening.
At home you can raise the volume as much as you want, wear headphones, etc. but the final outcome is somehow unnatural. 
It takes time to get used to a live symphony performance but the experience is much more rewarding than listening to a CD.
Not always, but very often.


----------



## Weston

clavichorder said:


> We are so obsessed with ranking symphonies. The same sort of attention could be paid to the baroque concerto grosso and we might have interesting results. Granted, there isn't the same apparent diversity as there are with symphonies of the romantic and modern, but there is still individuality of composers styles that varies even within their own body of work. Its nice that we have those on the forum interested in Muffat, Locatelli, Corelli, Geminiani, Handel, A. Scarlatti, and others who worked with the form. But it would be really interesting to look into all the individual pieces, and figure out what the standouts are. The problem is, many are coming from an angle of romantic era preference and the outputs may seem very even. They are, but some are probably better than others, and it'd be neat to see if any consensus forms on that upon careful inspection.
> 
> Right now, I'm listening to Georg Muffat's Concerto Grosso number 7 in E major. I really like it, but I am unable to decide if its a standout or not.


It's unfortunate that so much baroque gets lumped in with "chamber music" or "concertos." It's really a whole different animal altogether isn't it?

Has anyone started a baroque top 100? I'd be all over that.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

GioCar said:


> ^^^
> 
> Sorry to hear you have been disappointed.
> 
> Anyway, this is possibly the most striking differences between a live performance and an "at home" listening.
> At home you can raise the volume as much as you want, wear headphones, etc. but the final outcome is somehow unnatural.
> It takes time to get used to a live symphony performance but the experience is much more rewarding than listening to a CD.
> Not always, but very often.


Thank you GioCar, so I'm guessing this is a fairly normal thing? I do feel that this particular venue ("Jones Hall" in Houston) perhaps isn't best suited to the instrument's sound carrying well. For instance, I can't imagine how faint it sounded to the people in the balcony way behind me. That said, I do think it was a good performance, I really have no complaints on Orozco-Estrada's conducting or the Orchestra's playing, it still was an _amazing_ experience despite the venue acoustics. I'm still thinking about it.


----------



## musicrom

William Walton's music is so strange. He's one of those composers who you can pretty easily identify, even when listening to a piece of his for the first time. It's incredibly written, but there always seems to be something off or perhaps missing in his music; I don't know what... 

His concertos for viola, cello, and violin, as well as his first symphony are mainly the pieces I'm talking about - those are the only pieces of his I recall listening to. Anyways, whenever I start listening to his music, I can't leave until it's over for some reason!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Random thought: Bassoons and horns are very useful instruments to write for - they blend well with the rest of the orchestra.


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## hpowders

Nobody wrote better for the integrated orchestral bassoon than Haydn.

Listening for it in any of the Paris or London symphonies is a real delight!


----------



## GioCar

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Thank you GioCar, so I'm guessing this is a fairly normal thing? I do feel that this particular venue ("Jones Hall" in Houston) perhaps isn't best suited to the instrument's sound carrying well. For instance, I can't imagine how faint it sounded to the people in the balcony way behind me. That said, I do think it was a good performance, I really have no complaints on Orozco-Estrada's conducting or the Orchestra's playing, it still was an _amazing_ experience despite the venue acoustics. I'm still thinking about it.


Ciao DiesIraeVIX, yes, I believe its quite usual. Your post reminds me what happened to some friends of mine some time ago. I personally took them to a symphonic concert at La Scala, and they had never gone to a live CM event before.
Well, the acoustics possibly aren't the best in the world (although improved a lot after the recent renovation) but anyway very good. My friends came out from the concert saying just what you said about the sound volume.
I'm not an expert on concert hall acoustics, but the Jones Hall in Houston looks like a good concert hall (at least from the pics in their website).

For the time being, you should definitely avoid the Arena in Verona...


----------



## Headphone Hermit

GioCar said:


> For the time being, you should definitely avoid the Arena in Verona...


at least for the next six months or so - of else take warm clothing :lol:


----------



## hpowders

I wonder why Bach felt he needed to compose a 2 hour mass when he demonstrated over and over that he could express the same religious fervor in a two to five minute fugue?


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## Ingélou

Why do people go to an art gallery, when they can reach the same level of interest by looking at a catalogue?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Ingélou said:


> Why do people go to an art gallery, when they can reach the same level of interest by looking at a catalogue?


I go to gaze for at least half an hour at each artwork and take them in as superhuman creations made by real human geniuses revered across the globe. I am completely wrapped up in the awesome power of the physical presence of art. I once sat and looked at "Blue Poles" by Jackson Pollock for two hours when I was in Canberra. It is my favourite painting. What's your point?


----------



## science

DiesIraeVIX said:


> First, the good. I just got home from my very first live symphony performance.


Wow! Congratulations! That's awesome. We are the future of classical music, and we are looking good!



DiesIraeVIX said:


> The bad news is that... the acoustics were sorely lacking.


IMO, there is nothing like the sound of a live orchestra. So powerful, so sweet, so precise, so subtle.... I can hardly imagine recording technology ever matching it.

But you do have to be in an appropriately sized place. I'd rather hear a less elite or even amateur orchestra in a smaller hall (or at least closer) than a famous one in the back rows of a place too large for the sound to fill. This has affected my choice in ticket purchases for sure - fewer of them (trade-offs, after all), but better seats, smaller venues.


----------



## science

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I go to gaze for at least half an hour at each artwork and take them in as superhuman creations made by real human geniuses revered across the globe. I am completely wrapped up in the awesome power of the physical presence of art. I once sat and looked at "Blue Poles" by Jackson Pollock for two hours when I was in Canberra. It is my favourite painting. What's your point?


_My_ point is that if you're serious, you were probably trying too hard, but good for you anyway!

I'm personally not sure how much people are supposed to get out of a trip to a typical art museum. Do we just go to see pretty things? Hopefully not. But... how many of us have read even half a dozen substantial books on art history? But... do we need to? Isn't it enough just to look at pretty things from history?

I have an emotional attachment to certain periods of history and certain ideas about history, and I love a museum that tickles me there. One of my favorite museums is the "Silla Museum" in Gyeongju, South Korea. I could mention a few criticisms - worst of all, it treats Tangun (a mythological figure popular with Korean nationalists) as a historical guy. That's utter nationalistic BS, every bit as bad as Adam and Eve riding dinosaurs or whatever. However, I forgive that, because you can probably not find a museum in Korea free of that sin. (And, hey, after all, Columbus proved the world is round, right? So I'd better not cast the first stone. It's getting better here.) But the thing is, that museum is laid out chronologically, and it illustrates with amazing drama the transition from Silla's culture with the acceptance of Buddhism. It shows so powerfully what a great ideology can do for a state's ruling elite. That was not the museum's intention, I'm sure, but that's what they accomplished, and I love them for it. Every time I walk from the room immediately prior to the acceptance of Buddhism to the room immediately after it, I feel like I'm walking through an incarnation of the opening of Strauss's _Also sprach Zarathustra_. Wonderful experience.

To anyone new to this issue, wanting to think about the significance of museums, and what we're supposed to do in them, I recommend the first chapter of Malraux's _The Voices of Silence_. That is what set me on my own path. So that never fail to think about what we are supposed to get out of a museum - nationalistic pride? class status? historical education? new interests? religious doctrine? - as I explore its contents. What is the implicit ideology? If I can ever dig to a deeper level of cynicism, I will!


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## Headphone Hermit

Ingélou said:


> Why do people go to an art gallery, when they can reach the same level of interest by looking at a catalogue?


I go to the gallery for the same reason as I would prefer to hear a live concert by a top-clas performer over listening to the same piece on the radio whilst driving my car. One is an intense, living experience that can lead to an epithany moment, and the other is a sometimes satisfactory reproduction that gives me a clue what the artist wanted to convey


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## CharlieCello

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I go to gaze for at least half an hour at each artwork and take them in as superhuman creations made by real human geniuses revered across the globe. I am completely wrapped up in the awesome power of the physical presence of art. I once sat and looked at "Blue Poles" by Jackson Pollock for two hours when I was in Canberra. It is my favourite painting. What's your point?


Sounds like the right way to do it! I think I shall adopt this approach when I visit the National Gallery in London for the first time.


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## hpowders

Ingélou said:


> Why do people go to an art gallery, when they can reach the same level of interest by looking at a catalogue?


You jest, of course!!!


----------



## maestro267

The 1930s really was a fertile period for the British symphony. Walton's 1st is probably the most successful example, but there are many fine works from that decade, including Bax Nos. 4-7, EJ Moeran's G minor, George Dyson's G major, Havergal Brian's Nos. 2-5, and the new voice of George Lloyd emerging with his first three contributions to the symphonic canon of this nation.


----------



## Janspe

I just came back from a concert. It began rather conventionally: Debussy's La Mer and Prokofiev's C major concerto, with a rather good performance of the former and quite an odd one of the latter.

But then...

_Amériques_ by Edgard Varèse. I'm still quite shaken.

Now don't get me wrong, I've heard the piece a few times before (Boulez certainly has introduced a lot of music to me...) but _nothing_ could prepare me for the sheer amount of volume created by the orchestra in a live performance. In the final climax I seriously tought that I'm gonna go deaf, or die or something. And I sat right behind the gazillion percussion players... But what a piece it was! I'd like to say that I loved it but it think the experience was waaay beyond words like love or hate. Geez.

Listening to some Mozart now to get my mind back on track.


----------



## hpowders

I have concluded that my search for the perfect WTC Book Two perfomance is a fruitless one.
The music is simply greater than any performance can hope to achieve.


----------



## tdc

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I go to gaze for at least half an hour at each artwork and take them in as superhuman creations made by real human geniuses revered across the globe. I am completely wrapped up in the awesome power of the physical presence of art. I once sat and looked at "Blue Poles" by Jackson Pollock for two hours when I was in Canberra. It is my favourite painting. What's your point?


I think that post was a joke good sir - in response to hpowders previous post. But at any rate great to see another passionate art lover on the forums!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

science said:


> (And, hey, after all, Columbus proved the world is round, right? So I'd better not cast the first stone. It's getting better here.)


As far as I know (from what I was taught in school) Columbus theorised that the world was round, tried to prove it and ultimately didn't when he landed in "India," but Ferdinand Magellan and co. were the first to truly prove it when they sailed around the world in the 16th century.


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## KenOC

That the earth was round (or more or less spherical) was known since the times of the ancients. In about 240 BCE Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the earth using widely-spaced posts, their shadows, and some fancy trig. He came within about 10%. More, from Wiki:

"He was also the first to calculate the tilt of the Earth's axis (again with remarkable accuracy). Additionally, he may have accurately calculated the distance from the Earth to the Sun and invented the leap day. He created the first map of the world incorporating parallels and meridians, based on the available geographical knowledge of the era.

Eratosthenes was the founder of scientific chronology; he endeavored to revise the dates of the chief literary and political events from the conquest of Troy. In number theory, he introduced the sieve of Eratosthenes, an efficient method of identifying prime numbers."

And then, soon after he became eight years old... :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Weston

Janspe said:


> I just came back from a concert. It began rather conventionally: Debussy's La Mer and Prokofiev's C major concerto, with a rather good performance of the former and quite an odd one of the latter.
> 
> But then...
> 
> _Amériques_ by Edgard Varèse. I'm still quite shaken.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I've heard the piece a few times before (Boulez certainly has introduced a lot of music to me...) but _nothing_ could prepare me for the sheer amount of volume created by the orchestra in a live performance. In the final climax I seriously tought that I'm gonna go deaf, or die or something. And I sat right behind the gazillion percussion players... But what a piece it was! I'd like to say that I loved it but it think the experience was waaay beyond words like love or hate. Geez.
> 
> Listening to some Mozart now to get my mind back on track.


I have never in my life been to an orchestral concert I would think of as even remotely loud. You folks are lucky!


----------



## KenOC

More: Even in Columbus's time, the idea of a flat earth was more a popular superstition than the view of knowledgeable people. The idea survives to this day at the Flat Earth Society. From Wiki:

"...when satellite images showed Earth as a sphere, the society was undaunted; Shenton remarked: 'It's easy to see how a photograph like that could fool the untrained eye.'

...The Flat Earth Society's most recent world model is that humanity lives on a disc, with the North Pole at its center and a 150-foot high wall of ice at the outer edge... In this model, the sun and moon are each 32 miles in diameter."

The Flat Earth Society believes that the Apollo lunar landings were staged by Hollywood. That idea was used in the 1978 movie _Capricorn One_, about a staged landing on Mars.


----------



## violadude

Ingélou said:


> Why do people go to an art gallery, when they can reach the same level of interest by looking at a catalogue?


I know, right? I was planning to visit Paris to see the Notre Dame Cathedral but then I realized I could just look it up on google images!


----------



## maestro267

While listening to The Apostles last night, I had a realisation. One that has probably been there for a while, but one that I now feel it is time to acknowledge. Elgar is my favourite composer. For many years, Tchaikovsky has held that place in my affections, and I will continue to love his music. But I've heard enough Elgar in different forms. I have fallen in love with everything I've heard of his music. The symphonies, the concerti, and now the choral works. His music has a longing that really gets me.


----------



## hpowders

violadude said:


> I know, right? I was planning to visit Paris to see the Notre Dame Cathedral but then I realized I could just look it up on google images!


You jest of course! I was at Notre Dame and it was mouth-openingly awesome. 

No image could do it justice.

A nice place to do the Mahler 8.


----------



## hpowders

Why do provincial orchestras charge so much for tickets and then cry they are going under due to low attendance?

My local orchestra charges $40 minimum. All they have to do is lower it to $20-$25 and I'm sure many more folks will come.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

hpowders said:


> Why do provincial orchestras charge so much for tickets and then cry they are going under due to low attendance?
> 
> My local orchestra charges $40 minimum. All they have to do is lower it to $20-$25 and I'm sure many more folks will come.


I know the LA phil charges like 60 dollars for the balcony...


----------



## SeptimalTritone

I just want to say that John11inch is by far the greatest channel on youtube. I listen to like half my music from this channel.


----------



## Dustin

Sorry for the quick plug of my other post but I just posted a question about cost of violins over in the strings section part of the forum in case anyone knows much about that. I noticed it doesn't get much traffic over there. Violadude maybe you could offer a piece of advice?


----------



## Chris

This morning Radio 3 played a short extract from Arthur Sullivan's cantata The Golden Legend. I'd never heard of it. The announcer said the work was so popular in Sullivan's time that the composer suggested a ten year moratorium on performances as he feared it was being played to death; it was only slightly less frequently performed than Handel's Messiah. How tastes and reputations change.


----------



## MagneticGhost

violadude said:


> I know, right? I was planning to visit Paris to see the Notre Dame Cathedral but then I realized I could just look it up on google images!


I was going to listen to Beethoven's Pathetique sonata and realised I could save a lot of time by just listening to Billy Joel's This Night :lol:


----------



## hpowders

SeptimalTritone said:


> I know the LA phil charges like 60 dollars for the balcony...


Outrageous, but at least the LA Philharmonic has serious street cred. Where I live, the orchestra is typically provincial-players wearing different outfits, some players arrive late after the music already started, etc; for this they charge $40 minimum?


----------



## Weston

We can put a man on the moon but can't design a CD case that 1. you can get out of the wrapper and 2. doesn't shatter the hinges rendering it forever useless after dropping it from trying to open said wrapper.


----------



## Figleaf

violadude said:


> I know, right? I was planning to visit Paris to see the Notre Dame Cathedral but then I realized I could just look it up on google images!


That's the second best way to see it (at least if you include Streetview.) The best way is to see it from the river. The worst way to see it is from the inside- it's pitch black in there!


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## hpowders

Alien spacemen tuning into TC over the last several days would be under the impression that the Myaskovsky Symphony No. 6 is the greatest thing since interstellar space travel.


----------



## hpowders

Weston said:


> We can put a man on the moon but can't design a CD case that 1. you can get out of the wrapper and 2. doesn't shatter the hinges rendering it forever useless after dropping it from trying to open said wrapper.


I usually order used CDs so I don't have the shrink wrap removal nightmare.


----------



## Chris

There was a piece on Radio 3 today discussing a new film about Herbert von Karajan. It revealed he so disliked baldness that he made hairless men in his orchestra wear wigs.


----------



## senza sordino

It's too bad we can't trade CDs with each other. Or borrow from each other, as if we all lived in the same block of flats, and just wander over to a fellow TC member and browse through their collection.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I want ArtMusic to make another poll.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I want ArtMusic to make another poll.


:lol:

I'm gonna go ahead and second this. Why? Because you never know where the topic is going end up!


----------



## trazom

I have a CDs of Beethoven's Emperor Concerto and the 9th symphony, as well as cheap recordings of Vivaldi's flute and violin concertos. Originally, I was just going to give them away to people here who wanted them but then I realized...it would be against my conscience to do something like that. Why expose them to this when I can introduce them to even greater music more in line with my tastes? I want to do what's right and help people even if they protest at first. The most logical thing I can do is...destroy this music before anyone else can listen to it. They'll thank me for it later.

Edit: This was actually a joke. I was going to send them to anyone who wanted them because I have other performances i like better.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

trazom said:


> I have a CDs of Beethoven's Emperor Concerto and the 9th symphony, as well as cheap recordings of Vivaldi's flute and violin concertos. Originally, I was just going to give them away to people here who wanted them but then I realized...it would be against my conscience to do something like that. Why expose them to this when I can introduce them to even greater music more in line with my tastes? I want to do what's right and help people even if they protest at first. The most logical thing I can do is...destroy this music before anyone else can listen to it. They'll thank me for it later.


This post speaks volumes (although I'm not surprised by it).

I say you burn those CDs in a nice fire, then roast some marshmallows on that fire. Yes?


----------



## trazom

DiesIraeVIX said:


> This post speaks volumes (although I'm not surprised by it).


It says that even when I'm to make it as obvious as possible that I'm being sarcastic, you _still_ don't get it.:lol: Which also doesn't surprise me.

I'll ignore the not-so-subtle implication in your last post that could get you banned.


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## DiesIraeCX

I've conclusively decided that I'm going to learn the piano. I've been thinking about it for months now. Then for thanksgiving, at my aunt's house, I started messing around on her piano, learning some notes on the keys and how to read the sheet music. It was a great feeling just to play the opening from "When the Saints Come Marching in". Lol.

First step. Buy a cheap starter piano or keyboard and a couple of "Piano for dummies" books. I don't have enough time for lessons right now!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

trazom said:


> It says that even when I'm to make it as obvious as possible that I'm being sarcastic, you _still_ don't get it.:lol: Which also doesn't surprise me.
> 
> I'll ignore the not-so-subtle implication in your last post that could get you banned.


Haha, so you think me suggesting that you burn the CDs in a fire is a serious post? There was no implication. Unless roasting marshmallows over a fire with some trash in it more serious than I realize. (I've done that before. lol)

By the way, sarcasm isn't always detectable in text. But I did pick up on it not being completely serious, at least! ;-)


----------



## aleazk

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I've conclusively decided that I'm going to learn the piano. I've been thinking about it for months now. Then for thanksgiving, at my aunt's house, I started messing around on her piano, learning some notes on the keys and how to read the sheet music. It was a great feeling just to play the opening from "When the Saints Come Marching in". Lol.
> 
> First step. Buy a cheap starter piano or keyboard and a couple of "Piano for dummies" books. I don't have enough time for lessons right now!


I really, really, _really_ recommend a piano teacher.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

aleazk said:


> I really, really, _really_ recommend a piano teacher.


Yeah, that's what my aunt told me. I will take your recommendation, it's just gonna have to be once a week for now, then. Lately, with work and family, it's been busy, but I'll find time.

Thanks aleazk, I appreciate the advice!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Boulez has composed some frighteningly fast music!


----------



## aleazk

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Yeah, that's what my aunt told me. I will take your recommendation, it's just gonna have to be once a week for now, then. Lately, with work and family, it's been busy, but I'll find time.
> 
> Thanks aleazk, I appreciate the advice!


The problem with learning by yourself is that: i) you will catch a lot of bad habits (in technique, posture, etc.) that later will take you time to 'unlearn', very likely having to go back and play elementary pieces again (which would be a bore); ii) you will spend eons discovering things by yourself which a teacher can tell you in two clases; iii) very likely, you will apply techniques and learn pieces in very inefficient ways and the activity becomes quite more complicated and tiring than it should.

Really, piano teachers do marvels. You will need to find the adequate teacher. Some teachers indeed understand if you want to go slow, one class per week. It's possible.


----------



## hpowders

I just bought Medtner's piano concertos two and three. I find the second so appealing; the third, rambling.

Similarly I bought Pettersson's seventh and eleventh symphonies. The 7th is terrific; the 11th draws a blank.

Amazing how composers can hit the bullseye with certain listeners and apparently miss the mark quite badly too.

Of course I am only speaking from the point of view of my own perception!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Would someone be kind enough to explain how Debussy was so innovative into laymen's terms? (if at all possible, I understand if it's not) I would just like to be more musically informed while listening to my new Debussy recording. 

I know it has something to do with harmonic language and tonality, but I have trouble understanding what exactly that entails. In what ways were the harmonies new, and tonality, well, I'm just completely lost when it comes to anything with the word "tonal" in it.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Would someone be kind enough to explain how Debussy was so innovative into laymen's terms? (if at all possible, I understand if it's not) I would just like to be more musically informed while listening to my new Debussy recording.


He dropped tonal and structural systems for his own compositional intentions.

By that, he avoided following harmony the way composers like Mozart would, and the "coherent" nature of his works is from his own way of developing melodic material rather than sticking to things like "sonata form" or "rondo form" etc.

He also drew inspiration from East and South East Asian art and music, something which only began to be picked up more by other composers later into the 20th century.


----------



## Mahlerian

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Would someone be kind enough to explain how Debussy was so innovative into laymen's terms? (if at all possible, I understand if it's not) I would just like to be more musically informed while listening to my new Debussy recording.


From the mid-17th century, music was written in the style that is now called "Common Practice Tonality" or "Functional Tonality," which is based on using the normal major and minor scales in a specific way, emphasizing particular chords and their "function" in affirming or denying the tonality of the piece.

Debussy's music is, especially for its time, quite radical in breaking away from common practice by submerging or doing away with functionality, whether by using triads in non-functional ways, emphasizing non-triadic harmonies, and/or relying more on non-diatonic collections (ie not major or minor scales) than diatonic ones.

On top of that, his conception of timbre as a way of structuring music in addition to or even in lieu of pitch was unlike what had come before.

Formally, his music eschews the developmental processes that had characterized music since the Classical era, and emotionally he casts everything at an objective distance in contrast to the Romantics.


----------



## Guest

I have never fully understood Debussy in that way either, DiesIrae, but I have vague theoretical ideas based on what little theory I know in these regards. 

However, I'm really posting this reply because it's a coincidence that you should ask now. Less than a week ago, when I was half-asleep (often my best listening experiences), I was listening to the sonata for flute, viola and harp, and, although I couldn't express it fully in technical terminology, the truth about Debussy hit me like a ten-ton truck. Always loved his music, always had vague understandings about whole tone scales and various harmonic conventions, but the sheer weight of the innovation has finally come in full force.

EDIT: For the record, this was my first listen to the new ECM recording of that great sonata. I had been sticking to the Franck/Ravel/Debussy disc on (I think) Decca, but ECM always delivers so I opted to check it out (and it comes with a great Takemitsu work AND a Gubaidulina work I've never heard!).


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Thank you! You guys are awesome, _this_ is why I love this forum.


----------



## Mahlerian

Perhaps a comparison between the conventional early Debussy and the mature, radical Debussy will help here:

Danse Bohemienne - 1880
Ondine - 1913


----------



## DiesIraeCX

arcaneholocaust said:


> Less than a week ago, when I was half-asleep (often my best listening experiences).


I seriously thought I was weird for this exact same thing, I'm glad there are others, haha. I had an amazing experience listening to Bruckner's 9th while half-asleep!


----------



## Guest

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I seriously thought I was weird for this exact same thing, I'm glad there are others, haha. I had an amazing experience listening to Bruckner's 9th while half-asleep!


We're totes on the same wave-length, brah. I was playing Bruckner 9 in my car on Wednesday and pulled over to look for something on the floor. Well I had the volume a little louder than I would've liked (for the quiet parts) and the big brass theme came in for the first time while I was fiddling around and it was just about the most immense thing I'd ever heard.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

arcaneholocaust said:


> We're totes on the same wave-length, brah. I was playing Bruckner 9 in my car on Wednesday and pulled over to look for something on the floor. Well I had the volume a little louder than I would've liked (for the quiet parts) and the big brass theme came in for the first time while I was fiddling around and it was just about the most immense thing I'd ever heard.


Dude, we're definitely on the same wavelength. In addition to that half-asleep Bruckner 9 experience, just about a month ago, I was listening to Bruckner 9 in my car with the volume almost maxed out (because of the quiet parts) and the loud parts were just unreal. The 1st Mvt is one of those pieces that makes me think it's the best thing in the world while listening.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Dude, we're definitely on the same wavelength. In addition to that half-asleep Bruckner 9 experience, just about a month ago, I was listening to Bruckner 9 in my car with the volume almost maxed out (because of the quiet parts) and the loud parts were just unreal. The 1st Mvt is one of those pieces that makes me think it's the best thing in the world while listening.


. . . _and_ the second movement as well: with the full-frontal panzer attack. . . _and_ of course the third movement too: with its Mahlerian-type poignancy._ ;D_


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . _and_ the second movement as well: with the full-frontal panzer attack. . . _and_ of course the third movement too: with its Mahlerian-type poignancy._ ;D_


Agreed, the 2nd Mvt is like nothing I've ever heard in classical. The 3rd Mvt is, well, I wouldn't want the 9th to have been finished. The 3rd Mvt *IS* the perfect finale to his finest symphony, in my opinion.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Agreed, the 2nd Mvt is like nothing I've ever heard in classical. The 3rd Mvt is, well, I wouldn't want the 9th to have been finished. The 3rd Mvt *IS* the perfect finale to his finest symphony, in my opinion.


The symphony is just epic and gorgeous beyond belief. I remember when I got the Karajan/BPO I was in my early twenties and on a road trip to Arizona. I just kept playing, or rather trying to play it, over and over again. People kept taking it out of the cd player-- but I couldn't get enough of it: The tremendous build-up at the beginning, the monumental ending of the first movement, the drop-hammer, full-tilt attack of the second movement. . . and just those sublime, soaring strings of the last movement. Yeah, the Bruckner Nine really sunk its hook into me. . . and then of course I heard Furtwangler's war-time BPO performance-- and I just had that open-mouth-of-ignorant-wonder effect listening to it the whole way through. Quite possibly the greatest Bruckner performance ever.










(Awesome re-engineer job and greatest_ Liebestod __EV-A!_)


----------



## xpangaeax

Random thought: the utter nuisance that is trying to listen to, say, Eugene Onegin in the office, and people start congregating around your desk, say at a peak moment, and you need to remove an earbud and divert attention to the conversation around you so as not to be rude if you are addressed. Actually, this makes me so agitated maybe it does deserve its own thread! :lol:


----------



## hpowders

It's depressing when I go to order something on Amazon and every one of the 23 possible choices comes from Japan with a month's waiting time.

Second time I've been forced to do this and it truly sucks! Are they delivering the CD on foot??


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Just came across this cool video. I wanted to mention it on Talk Classical somewhere, so here would be a good spot probably


----------



## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Just came across this cool video. I wanted to mention it on Talk Classical somewhere, so here would be a good spot probably


That video comes from a 7 part documentary called "Leaving Home: Orchestral Music in the 20th Century".

If you liked that clip, you can find the whole thing on youtube. Or you can support your fellow musicians and buy it here:

http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Home-Orchestral-Music-Century/dp/B000CQJXFU


----------



## Weston

To the person in my neighborhood who sits in a driveway somewhere running a motorcycle engine that goes "BLEB-duluh-BLEB-duluh-BLEB-duh-CHOKE-bleb-Bleb-BLEB-duluh-BLEB-duh . . ." while I'm trying to listen to Schubert:

You are about to get hit with _Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima_ on setting 11 at 4:00 am.

If I were only less mature I might actually do that.


----------



## hpowders

I don't know how many more outages I can take. I may have to go back to my more reliable watch and car forums.


----------



## Weston

The Allmusic site has become all but unusable as a resource. The intrusive commercials seem to lock up every activity I'm involved in until they are done, and then they start again at random intervals. I understand that a site needs to support itself, but my life is not a TV show to be interrupted this way.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

Guys and girls, I like the trio of the scherzo of the Beethoven 16th quartet way too much.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

SeptimalTritone said:


> Guys and girls, I like the trio of the scherzo of the Beethoven 16th quartet way too much.


Are you high?


----------



## SeptimalTritone

WOW. I've only smoked pot once in my life.

Or did you mean that figuratively?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

SeptimalTritone said:


> WOW. I've only smoked pot once in my life.
> 
> Or did you mean that figuratively?


You can interpret anything I write any way you wish.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

I love you too :kiss:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

SeptimalTritone said:


> I love you too :kiss:


I _tolerate_ you.


----------



## Johannes V

I just now discovered this wonderful piano concerto by Andre Mathieu, a composer whom I also just discovered. One can see there is an obvious influence of Rachmaninoff, but it is still quite good.






It is a shame he died so young; he could have gone on to compose some truly first-rate stuff.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

SeptimalTritone said:


> Guys and girls, I like the trio of the scherzo of the Beethoven 16th quartet way too much.


This post pleases me. :kiss: You deserve that.

#16 is the "weirdest" of the late quartets and ultimately very satisfying. What a way to go out.

*Muß es sein? Es muß sein!*


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DiesIraeVIX said:


> This post pleases me. :kiss: You deserve that.
> 
> #16 is the "weirdest" of the late quartets and ultimately very satisfying. What a way to go out.
> 
> *Muß es sein? Es muß sein!*


16 is really a wonderful quartet, really a nice way to finish his amazing series of string quartets. Much better than his 9th symphony.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I wonder sometimes how long it will take for my brain to admit my musical discoveries of these last couple years into that same chrysalis which contains the turkish march, mountain king, four seasons, etc.

I've come to understand why some of these famous works are considered only minor masterpieces in comparison to the rest of their composers oeuvre, and yet it is still these alone that truly become something more than music to me when I hear them. I remember how astonished I was when I first heard the 39th symphony, but the honest truth is that eine kleine nachtmusik, however thin it may be in comparison, still glitters with an almost scriptural magic that supersedes the millions of goosebumps I am gifted by Mozart's other more substantial works, and so it is with all of the other famous hits of classical.

I'm sure it is just the nostalgia talking, but I've read that we are destined to love the music we heard early in our lives more than any music we hear after. It sounds a bit preposterous unless I assume they were referring to that fondness I described, but I am dismayed by the thought that all of this great, superior even, music that I neglected for so long will never quite be topped with one of those intangible cherries that sweeten its lessers, from eine kleine to the theme of the owl in Zelda Ocarina of Time.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

_Mozart is undoubtedly one of the greatest of original geniuses, and I have never known any other composer to possess such an amazing wealth of ideas. I wish he were not so spendthrift with them. He does not give the listener time to catch his breath, for no sooner is one inclined to reflect upon a beautiful inspiration than another appears, even more splendid, which drives away the first, and this continues on and on, so that in the end one is unable to retain any of these beauties in the memory. _

Speaking of Mozart I've always loved this quote, but it also terrifies me. I'm sure we've all entertained the fantasy of having lived alongside all of these great geniuses of music, but man, it must have sucked to know as you take in the glory of a masterwork that you will be lucky to hear it a few more times the rest of your life, and that once these are expended you will be left with whatever whistles you managed to salvage. And knowing my memory that wouldn't be very many.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Why do so few string quartets have two violas instead? Then we could have an alto part and a tenor part instead of two soprano, tenor and bass.


----------



## hpowders

The problem with these damn forums is non-native speakers so easily misinterpret things. Happened to me today.


----------



## ptr

hpowders said:


> The problem with these damn forums is non-native speakers so easily misinterpret things. Happened to me today.


Yea, should be compulsory to learn Swedish for all You non native speakers!

/ptr


----------



## hpowders

ptr said:


> Yea, should be compulsory to learn Swedish for all You non native speakers!
> 
> /ptr


or German.........

By the way, would you trade Pettersson's.........:lol::lol:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ptr said:


> Yea, should be compulsory to learn Swedish for all You non native speakers!
> 
> /ptr


At least I tried! And you know that...I think.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MoonlightSonata said:


> Why do so few string quartets have two violas instead? Then we could have an alto part and a tenor part instead of two soprano, tenor and bass.


Tell me what you think of this lineup:

Viola on soprano, viola on alto, viola on tenor, viola on bass.


----------



## Albert7

M & M's = Mahler & Mendelssohn's .


----------



## hpowders

I had a Swedish girlfriend. Her name's Agneta. I could never, ever pronounce her name correctly according to her.

I think I pronounced "Get the _____ out of my house!!!" to her satisfaction since with that phrase I am a native English speaker and had no trouble.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Tell me what you think of this lineup:
> 
> Viola on soprano, viola on alto, viola on tenor, viola on bass.


What an unusual piece that would be.


----------



## violadude

MoonlightSonata said:


> What an unusual piece that would be.


What about viola on soprano, viola on alto, viola on tenor, viola on bass and viola on super bass?

I wrote a piece like that.






Although, it's more like the 5th viola is on super soprano rather than super bass, but you can't reveal your punchline at the very beginning! That's just bad comedic timing.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> What about viola on soprano, viola on alto, viola on tenor, viola on bass and viola on super bass?
> 
> I wrote a piece like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although, it's more like the 5th viola is on super soprano rather than super bass, but you can't reveal your punchline at the very beginning! That's just bad comedic timing.


Hey when did you go to Sydney!


----------



## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Hey when did you go to Sydney!


I've been to Sydney 4 times to visit my girlfriend. Once in winter of 2011, once in summer of 2011, once in winter of 2013 and once in summer of 2014.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> I've been to Sydney 4 times to visit my girlfriend. Once in winter of 2011, once in summer of 2011, once in winter of 2013 and once in summer of 2014.


Oh wow! Would that be my summer (and which end of the year? Do you mean January/February?) or your summer?

See if you can come down under in September next year, and see if you can make your way down to Melbourne to hear a performance of my Sinfonia Concertante. 

I really like your piece btw, listening to it right now.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

violadude said:


> What about viola on soprano, viola on alto, viola on tenor, viola on bass and viola on super bass?
> 
> I wrote a piece like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although, it's more like the 5th viola is on super soprano rather than super bass, but you can't reveal your punchline at the very beginning! That's just bad comedic timing.


That's very nice! I shall have a look at some of your other videos.


----------



## violadude

MoonlightSonata said:


> That's very nice! I shall have a look at some of your other videos.


Cool, as long as you don't find the embarrassing ones.


----------



## violadude

Why is it that when Tchaikovsky calls Brahms a giftless ******* everyone be like "Oooohhh Tchaikovsky  He had his opinions but we shouldn't let that interfere with our enjoyment of his music."

But when Boulez calls Shostakovich a third pressing of Mahler, everyone be like OMG what a total *****bag.  He ruined music forever!"


----------



## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Oh wow! Would that be my summer (and which end of the year? Do you mean January/February?) or your summer?
> 
> See if you can come down under in September next year, and see if you can make your way down to Melbourne to hear a performance of my Sinfonia Concertante.
> 
> I really like your piece btw, listening to it right now.


I would love to, but unfortunately my girlfriend is back in Thailand and I'm trying to get her a visa here... so I probably wont be back for a while despite my love of that place.


----------



## KenOC

violadude said:


> Why is it that when Tchaikovsky calls Brahms a giftless ******* everyone be like "Oooohhh Tchaikovsky  He had his opinions but we shouldn't let that interfere with our enjoyment of his music."
> 
> But when Boulez calls Shostakovich a third pressing of Mahler, everyone be like OMG what a total *****bag.  He ruined music forever!"


I'm not sure that's "everyone's" reaction in either case. A lot of people probably think, "Hey, those idiots are just like us cretins here on Talk Classical!" And of course, they are!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> Why is it that when Tchaikovsky calls Brahms a giftless ******* everyone be like "Oooohhh Tchaikovsky  He had his opinions but we shouldn't let that interfere with our enjoyment of his music."
> 
> But when Boulez calls Shostakovich a third pressing of Mahler, everyone be like OMG what a total *****bag.  He ruined music forever!"


Because Boulez had a reputation at one time for being a bit of a douchebag.


----------



## Blancrocher

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Because Boulez had a reputation at one time for being a bit of a douchebag.


That's what initially attracted me to his writing (in addition to his music), in fact. Quite the b****rd! Not Ned Rorem level, but not bad either--he's given me lots of laughs over the years.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Do have any Bruno Maderna fans here? I would like to know generally what people think of him as a composer.


----------



## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Do have any Bruno Maderna fans here? I would like to know generally what people think of him as a composer.


I've heard three of his pieces (Quadrivium, Aura and Biogramma) which isn't enough to make a final judgement.

I liked what I heard, but it didn't pop out at me as being particularly great or original.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Great composer with a capital G.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> I've heard three of his pieces (Quadrivium, Aura and Biogramma) which isn't enough to make a final judgement.
> 
> I liked what I heard, but it didn't pop out at me as being particularly great or original.


Quadrivium has been mentioned a couple of times to me now, I migh have to check it out soon.


----------



## hpowders

Still waiting for WTC Book Two with Gustav Leonhardt to arrive from Japan. Two weeks now. Depressing there were no local options for purchase.


----------



## Albert7

I had a dream that I ate sushi with my wife and daughter and Schubert and we held a musical salon at a Japanese restaurant.


----------



## The nose

albertfallickwang said:


> I had a dream that I ate sushi with my wife and daughter and Schubert and we held a musical salon at a Japanese restaurant.


Cool, was he a nice guy?


----------



## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Do have any Bruno Maderna fans here? I would like to know generally what people think of him as a composer.


I love Maderna. Not quite as radical as Berio/Nono in my opinion, but a fantastic serialist nonetheless. My favorite works include: the string quartet, the concerto for two pianos, quadrivium, satyricon, three oboe concerti, and his tape music. Some of his other chamber pieces are really nice too...

Edit: Satyricon is sort of one of those wacky pastiche-filled operas, if you're into that sort of thing.


----------



## aleazk

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Do have any Bruno Maderna fans here? I would like to know generally what people think of him as a composer.


I know and like the Oboe Concertos, for example: No.1, No.2, No.3.


----------



## hpowders

I had a dream that TC went a whole week without breaking down.

I know! I know! Schubert eating sushi in a Japanese restaurant is a thousand times more likely to occur!!


----------



## MagneticGhost

^^^^ Except every man and his dog knows that Schubert wouldn't be seen dead eating Sushi. He hates the stuff


----------



## hpowders

MagneticGhost said:


> ^^^^ Except every man and his dog knows that Schubert wouldn't be seen dead eating Sushi. He hates the stuff


Would cause him to frown (or worse) as if he heard something by Boulez for the first time.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Would cause him to frown (or worse) as if he heard something by Boulez for the first time.


Or as if hpowders heard Schubert or Liszt for the first time?


----------



## Albert7

Stressed out about starting this pizza job tomorrow (who knows whether I will stick to it) so listening to Steve Reich to alleviate all this.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

albertfallickwang said:


> Stressed out about starting this pizza job tomorrow (who knows whether I will stick to it) so listening to Steve Reich to alleviate all this.


Steve Reich's music can often help, but it really depends on what music exactly. Variations for Winds, Strings and Keyboards is one if the best for this.


----------



## Guest

I find Feldman's repetitions in chamber works more conducive to relaxation than Reich's 

Note: No, not strict repetitions. But if I *really* need to sleep, I put some Feldman on and count the little variations like sheep...


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

arcaneholocaust said:


> I find Feldman's repetitions in chamber works more conducive to relaxation than Reich's
> 
> Note: No, not strict repetitions. But if I *really* need to sleep, I put some Feldman on and count the little variations like sheep...


I certainly agree! But on nights where I get only four and a half hours sleep I sometimes find that the music is still going once I wake up.


----------



## Dustin

Found an interesting little snippet here about Schubert and Beethoven's interactions. There was no source so this could be all made up, but I liked it anyway.

"Even Beethoven, living in Vienna at the same time with Schubert, had not heard of him until Schubert was twenty-five years old and had already composed hundreds of his immortal songs, symphonies, concertos and operas. Not till 1822 did Schubert think of presenting in person to the master he honored so highly his Variations on a French Song. Beethoven, then in his fifty-second year and suffering from deafness, expressed the wish that Schubert should write the answer to his questions. But Schubert, out of sheer nervousness, felt as if his hands were tied and fettered. Some remarks of Beethoven uttered on an inaccuracy in the harmonies of his variations disconcerted Schubert the more, and the result was that never, until Beethoven lay dying, did Schubert see him again, as he had not the courage to repeat what had been a nerve-racking experience. Beethoven, on the contrary, after the interview, was most favorably impressed with Schubert, and commenced to study the young composer's works with keen interest. Especially, as Schindler states, Iphigenie, Gransen der Menschheit, Allmacht, Junge Nonne, Viola and the Mullerlieder impressed him deeply"


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Dustin said:


> Found an interesting little snippet here about Schubert and Beethoven's interactions. There was no source so this could be all made up, but I liked it anyway.
> 
> "Even Beethoven, living in Vienna at the same time with Schubert, had not heard of him until Schubert was twenty-five years old and had already composed hundreds of his immortal songs, symphonies, concertos and operas. Not till 1822 did Schubert think of presenting in person to the master he honored so highly his Variations on a French Song. Beethoven, then in his fifty-second year and suffering from deafness, expressed the wish that Schubert should write the answer to his questions. But Schubert, out of sheer nervousness, felt as if his hands were tied and fettered. Some remarks of Beethoven uttered on an inaccuracy in the harmonies of his variations disconcerted Schubert the more, and the result was that never, until Beethoven lay dying, did Schubert see him again, as he had not the courage to repeat what had been a nerve-racking experience. Beethoven, on the contrary, after the interview, was most favorably impressed with Schubert, and commenced to study the young composer's works with keen interest. Especially, as Schindler states, Iphigenie, Gransen der Menschheit, Allmacht, Junge Nonne, Viola and the Mullerlieder impressed him deeply"


Schubert didn't have much longer to go either once Beethoven was on his deathbed!


----------



## KenOC

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Schubert didn't have much longer to go either once Beethoven was on his deathbed!


True. 1828 was the end of that era of music. Then everything was different.


----------



## hpowders

Can I redeem my likes for a free round trip coach ticket to Europe?


----------



## Dustin

hpowders said:


> Can I redeem my likes for a free round trip coach ticket to Europe?


Now that "thanks" have been introduced, "likes" are no longer valuable. Darn! Maybe by next year.


----------



## Albert7

I embedded all missing album covers into my iTunes albums this morning. Headed to work now. Proud that all those pesky files now display cute artwork.


----------



## hpowders

Dustin said:


> Now that "thanks" have been introduced, "likes" are no longer valuable. Darn! Maybe by next year.


Since I made the request, I seem to have psyched out the TC board of directors and they removed my "likes" so I can no longer redeem them for a free flight.


----------



## hpowders

Just checking the emoticons before they take those away from me too.


----------



## MagneticGhost

hpowders said:


> Just checking the emoticons before they take those away from me too.


Appar ntly th y ar thinking of taking away the vow ls n xt!


----------



## hpowders

Wanted: Expert mechanic to restore fluent, user friendly "likes" system to minority interest website.


----------



## Dustin

hpowders said:


> Wanted: Expert mechanic to restore fluent, user friendly "likes" system to minority interest website.


I think this is funny but I don't know how to show it.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Dustin said:


> I think this is funny but I don't know how to show it.


----------



## hpowders

Sooooo glorious to be "like-free" for a few hours and not have that damn annoying "notifications" light up with numbers.

So wish I could disable this juvenile "like" function. It should be optional.

I don't need constant stroking to know I'm good.


----------



## hpowders

Dustin said:


> I think this is funny but I don't know how to show it.


I will give you my home address. Contributions of $5.00 per joke sounds fair.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> I will give you my home address. Contributions of $5.00 per joke sounds fair.


I don't think you'll be making very much money, well not from me anyway.


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I don't think you'll be making very much money, well not from me anyway.


You and I both know this statement is a ploy. You will be one of the first in line.

Consider it a gift to the "hpowders atonal music society of Florida". We feed starving active atonalists with no talent.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> You and I both know this statement is a ploy. You will be one of the first in line.


It's just that I'm yet to see you post a joke.


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It's just that I'm yet to see you post a joke.


And that's because you disappeared for 5763 of my posts. Is that my fault?

Go to classical music jokes. I posted two really good ones on that thread within the last week or so.

Got many, many, many "likes".


----------



## Dustin

hpowders said:


> I will give you my home address. Contributions of $5.00 per joke sounds fair.


Hahaha not bad. I may even send you a few bucks here and there for some that haven't made their debut yet and I'll pass them off as mine.

By the way, the forum just told me I had to wait 45 seconds between posts... Never have seen that before. All these changes... Instead of the Jordan rules, we have the Hpowders rules...


----------



## Dustin

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


>


That's one way to make sure they know! Haha


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> And that's because you disappeared for 5763 of my posts. Is that my fault?
> 
> Go to classical music jokes. I posted two really good ones on that thread within the last week or so.
> 
> Got many, many, many "likes".


Those were jokes? I thought you were being serious.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> And that's because you disappeared for 5763 of my posts.


What's that, a couple weeks?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Found a nice little interview, not sure were to put it.


----------



## Albert7

Beethoven is a pepperoni pizza with some basil and sausage; Mozart is a cheese pizza with no toppings.


----------



## DonAlfonso

albertfallickwang said:


> Beethoven is a pepperoni pizza with some basil and sausage; Mozart is a cheese pizza with no toppings.


Pepperoni AND sausage - sounds disgusting


----------



## DiesIraeCX

albertfallickwang said:


> Beethoven is a pepperoni pizza with some basil and sausage; Mozart is a cheese pizza with no toppings.


Haha, speaking from experience, the average Italian would prefer the Mozart pizza over the Beethoven pizza. Italian cuisine, including pizza, generally favors simplicity over risking too many ingredients.

In 2009, I was in Sicily visiting my family. They took us to a pizzeria, my dad, the American that he is, tried to order a pizza with too many ingredients. The waiter flat out refused to take the order, he said it would taste terrible. He strongly recommended he get something else, preferably something already on the menu. :lol:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

albertfallickwang said:


> Beethoven is a pepperoni pizza with some basil and sausage; Mozart is a cheese pizza with no toppings.


I'm a vegetarian! Don't deprive me of Beethoven by putting meat on him!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Oh look! I've been really wishing that there was a recording somewhere of Boulez's Bruckner 9, and, well, it looks like I wished hard enough because here it is.


----------



## hpowders

^^^Do you know which orchestra he's conducting? LA Philharmonic?


----------



## hpowders

Enjoying the "likes"-free TC, though I realize it's only temporary.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'm a vegetarian! Don't deprive me of Beethoven by putting meat on him!


Me too: I've been so for 5 years.

Let's get naked.


----------



## hpowders

I converted from Vegetarian to Episcopalian.


----------



## omega

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Oh look! I've been really wishing that there was a recording somewhere of Boulez's Bruckner 9, and, well, it looks like I wished hard enough because here it is.


I want more Boulez & Bruckner!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## trazom

SeptimalTritone said:


> Me too: I've been so for 5 years.
> 
> *Let's get naked.*


I don't see how that follows.  It doesn't matter, though: I'm sure there's a TC rule that forbids posting while naked, anyways.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?


----------



## MagneticGhost

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?











You just have to look in the right places. I think Harp playing is on the national curriculum in Wales


----------



## Vaneyes

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cCvkLi2PWkg#t=47


----------



## MagneticGhost

There you go! You wait years and years for a Male Harpist and then 2 come along at the same time!!


----------



## Albert7

Just another day here at the pizza place. Listening to Steve Reich again to avoid having to think about work.

And did another round of job hunting. Applied to a zillion software companies and haven't heard back yet .


----------



## MagneticGhost

albertfallickwang said:


> Just another day here at the pizza place. Listening to Steve Reich again to avoid having to think about work.
> 
> And did another round of job hunting. Applied to a zillion software companies and haven't heard back yet .


Hang in there my friend. Hope something comes up for you soon.


----------



## JACE

MagneticGhost said:


> Hang in there my friend. Hope something comes up for you soon.


*LIKE. *

And seconded.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?


In Australia we have Marshall Maguire who is an excellent musician.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

SeptimalTritone said:


> Let's get naked.


Ok 

..............


----------



## Xaltotun

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?


I saw one in a performance of Gliere's harp concerto. Don't remember the name... think he was French? Anyway, he had an awesome stage charisma, a total dandy, flinging his perfect hair about like Liszt! Just what a male harpist is supposed to be!


----------



## hpowders

Completely addicted to Bach's WTC Book One. Five different performances over the last few days.
The most awesome music I have ever experienced!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

SeptimalTritone said:


> Me too: I've been so for 5 years.
> 
> Let's get naked.


Good news everyone: www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex


----------



## KenOC

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Good news everyone: www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex


Good news indeed. Young people should definitely not have sex and should leave it for us oldsters. :tiphat:


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

KenOC said:


> Good news indeed. Young people should definitely not have sex and should leave it for us oldsters. :tiphat:


It's Freud's greatest horror. You say infantile sexuality and suddenly you're a perverted non-human.


----------



## KenOC

Richannes Wrahms said:


> It's Freud's greatest horror. You say infantile sexuality and suddenly you're a perverted non-human.


I'm with Jack Handey here. "I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex."


----------



## MoonlightSonata

MagneticGhost said:


> View attachment 58335
> 
> 
> You just have to look in the right places. I think Harp playing is on the national curriculum in Wales





Vaneyes said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cCvkLi2PWkg#t=47





MagneticGhost said:


> There you go! You wait years and years for a Male Harpist and then 2 come along at the same time!!


Thank you for all these. Isn't it always the way, you look for something and then find several?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Does anyone else here think that Karajan's interpretations are kinda pedestrian? And is his "sound" really just something like 2nd rate "Furtwangler sound?" Watching a documentary from a while ago I remember they said something about Karajan wanting to conduct the Berlin Phil just because he liked this "Furtwangler sound" they had.......


----------



## Chris

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?


King David in the Old Testament.


----------



## Chris

and.......


----------



## ptr

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random thought: I have never heard of a male harpist. Why is this?


Maybe You don't dig deep enough? Everybody should have heard of Nicanor Zabaleta or Lily Laskine, both harp legends in their own time!

/ptr


----------



## hpowders

Well the new "likes" system is up and running. Seems easy enough to use. Just hope there are no more major interruptions.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Does anyone else here think that Karajan's interpretations are kinda pedestrian? And is his "sound" really just something like 2nd rate "Furtwangler sound?" Watching a documentary from a while ago I remember they said something about Karajan wanting to conduct the Berlin Phil just because he liked this "Furtwangler sound" they had.......


I don't know about that, what I do know is that his 'sound' gave us one of the best Sibelius' Symphony No.4 and Tapiola. Nice Bruckner too.


----------



## hpowders

I have 6 performances of the Bach Cello Suites and not one of them completely satisfies me.

Is it the cello as a solo instrument? Is it Bach's music, not as inspired as the music for solo violin, the partitas and sonatas?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> I have 6 performances of the Bach Cello Suites and not one of them completely satisfies me.
> 
> Is it the cello as a solo instrument? Is it Bach's music, not as inspired as the music for solo violin, the partitas and sonatas?


Do you have Wispelwey's version? That completely satisfies me.


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Do you have Wispelwey's version? That completely satisfies me.


Yes. I have it somewhere, but I can't find it. I'll look tomorrow.


----------



## cbrian

I just discovered the composer Ferneyhough and his orchestral piece called La Terre est un Homme.

What are your thoughts on that piece?


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Do you have Wispelwey's version? That completely satisfies me.


I found it and now realize why I had trouble finding it. His recording was made too close-you hear every clickity-clack from the physical act of producing the music.

Also, as far as performance goes, one of my favorite movements, the final movement of the C Major is played in a square, careful manor which I found disappointing.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

cbrian said:


> I just discovered the composer Ferneyhough and his orchestral piece called La Terre est un Homme.
> 
> What are your thoughts on that piece?


I haven't heard it, but I will soon hopefully. Check out "Terrain" for violin and ensemble.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> I found it and now realize why I had trouble finding it. His recording was made too close-you hear every clickity-clack from the physical act of producing the music.
> 
> Also, as far as performance goes, one of my favorite movements, the final movement of the C Major is played in a square, careful manor which I found disappointing.


Oh well. 

How about the first recording made by Anner Bylsma?


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Oh well.
> 
> How about the first recording made by Anner Bylsma?


A shame the Wispelway was recorded so close.

I haven't heard the first Bylsma yet.

My current favorite is Jean-Guihen Queyras. The most musical performance I have ever heard.
His intonation at soft levels is breathtaking. A true virtuoso. Note perfect to these ears.
Plays a wonderful Gioffredo Coppa from 1696. (His friends called him Fredo).
Minimal extraneous noise.

I was wrong. I have 9 sets of Bach's Cello Suites, not 6!! Unreal.


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Do you have Wispelwey's version? That completely satisfies me.


Curious. You don't find Wispelwey's playing of the last movement of the C Major rather stolid? I wish he let loose a bit more. I mean this is noble, extroverted music.


----------



## Albert7

Finally snowing here in SLC... so that means some Archie Shepp and Marilyn Horne.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Could Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima be set as an effective Anti-theft alarm?


----------



## Albert7

Drinking beer and listening to some Richard Strauss.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Could Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima be set as an effective Anti-theft alarm?


Yes! It would be ideal if you cut out some of the quieter bits! Maybe just put the start and end on repeat :devil:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Italy has more great music than I thought! Listening to some Berio at the moment. I also got into Sciarrino recently! This stuff is so cool.


----------



## hpowders

Listening to Wispelwey's 1998 recording of Bach's Cello Suites With Bongo Obbligato. Cool!!!


----------



## hpowders

Spent the afternoon comparing HIP of Haydn's London Symphonies. Fascinating and a lot of fun!

However Ton Koopman/Amsterdam Baroque: 12 strings altogether?

Haydn wrote these to be performed in London and I'm sure expected at least 50 strings.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Why is it so annoying when people comment on a classical piece on youtube that they're listening the piece because it was in a movie. If I think it rationally - is it really possible to think anything rationally? That would be a topic for another thread - well, anyway, I guess I should be happy about the fact that people find good classical pieces, no matter what way they've found them. And, in the end, is it more "truer" to find good pieces by listening to some afternoon classical show on radio? Or accidentally because the piece just happened to be on this CD I got for this other piece?


----------



## ahammel

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> Why is it so annoying when people comment on a classical piece on youtube that they're listening the piece because it was in a movie. If I think it rationally - is it really possible to think anything rationally? That would be a topic for another thread - well, anyway, I guess I should be happy about the fact that people find good classical pieces, no matter what way they've found them. And, in the end, is it more "truer" to find good pieces by listening to some afternoon classical show on radio? Or accidentally because the piece just happened to be on this CD I got for this other piece?


That is very far indeed from the most annoying thing you'll find in a YouTube comment.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

ahammel said:


> That is very far indeed from the most annoying thing you'll find in a YouTube comment.


You are quite possible right. What would be the most annoying comment?


----------



## ahammel

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> You are quite possible right. What would be the most annoying comment?


Go look below any Wagner opera video.

I dare you.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

ahammel said:


> Go look below any Wagner opera video.
> 
> I dare you.


Oh, I see what you mean. That's very good point.


----------



## Mahlerian

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> You are quite possible right. What would be the most annoying comment?


I find the following exchange (go to the first result for modernist composer of your choice to see one just like it) pernicious:

Person A: This is noise!
Person B: You're an uncultured idiot!
Person A/C: You're just saying that to make yourself look good. It's still noise!
Person B/D: You're still an uncultured idiot!

It just reinforces the idea that whatever the music is, it's for elitist jerks.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Mahlerian said:


> I find the following exchange (go to the first result for modernist composer of your choice to see one just like it) pernicious:
> 
> Person A: This is noise!
> Person B: You're an uncultured idiot!
> Person A/C: You're just saying that to make yourself look good. It's still noise!
> Person B/D: You're still an uncultured idiot!
> 
> It just reinforces the idea that whatever the music is, it's for elitist jerks.


Well, that indeed is very obnoxious also.

I was wrong on my initial assumption that people who have just found a classical piece interesting due to a movie are annoying - but the the original question was that: why is that so annoying. Or is it? As I said: it should not be. Both of you have said good points.

edit: I just kind of contradicted myself. That's no surprise


----------



## Mahlerian

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> Well, that indeed is very obnoxious also.
> 
> I was wrong on my initial assumption that people who have just found a classical piece interesting due to a movie are annoying - but the the original question was that: why is that so annoying. Or is it? As I said: it should not be. Both of you have said good points.
> 
> edit: I just kind of contradicted myself. That's no surprise


I suppose there might be a level at which you think they're listening to the music only because of their associations with the movie, or that they're not going to branch out to other classical music. I would say you never know, and if they enjoy the music, that's a good thing, no matter what the reason.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Mahlerian said:


> I suppose there might be a level at which you think they're listening to the music only because of their associations with the movie, or that they're not going to branch out to other classical music. I would say you never know, and if they enjoy the music, that's a good thing, no matter what the reason.


That's my point excatly. Do any anyone of us really enjoy the music out of all those kind of supermusical things. What is our enjoynment. Is there anything _to it_. Is it all just noise that we give significance to.


----------



## Weston

For the record, I got into classical largely because of a movie -- 46 years ago. So try not to worry.

Having said that I probably would have gotten into it anyway. It feels inevitable.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Weston said:


> For the record, I got into classical largely because of a movie -- 46 years ago. So try not to worry.
> 
> Having said that I probably would have gotten into it anyway. It feels inevitable.


And it is completely OK. Maybe more OK than anything else. Or maybe someting else could be more OK. But it is quite OK still.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I cringe a little every time I read or hear things like 'ascending melodic minor'.


----------



## Albert7

More Mozart for Christmas please. Thank you.


----------



## tdc

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I cringe a little every time I read or hear things like 'ascending melodic minor'.


Why? Do you prefer the term 'jazz minor'? Or perhaps 'major scale with a flat 3rd'?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

tdc said:


> Why? Do you prefer the term 'jazz minor'? Or perhaps 'major scale with a flat 3rd'?


In Classical there is no such thing as 'ascending melodic minor', no composer has ever thought on those terms, it's just an intuitive occasional modification of the minor scale born out of the use of accidentals in the modal era that preceded tonality.

Jazz can do whatever.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I cringe a little every time I read or hear things like 'ascending melodic minor'.


I cringe more at *half diminished chords,* a stressed importance of *four part harmony,* and any *counterpoint which is not learnt according to "species counterpoint."*


----------



## Piwikiwi

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I cringe more at *half diminished chords,* a stressed importance of *four part harmony,* and any *counterpoint which is not learnt according to "species counterpoint."*


What like Baroque counterpoint?:'D

What is wrong with half diminished chords anyway? It is a perfectly logical way to describe the chord in the way it is used in jazz harmony.



tdc said:


> Why? Do you prefer the term 'jazz minor'? Or perhaps 'major scale with a flat 3rd'?


As if any jazz musician will care what a classical musician/theorist etc thinks.:')


----------



## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> As if any jazz musician will care what a classical musician/theorist etc thinks.:')


Well, personally I like to combine theoretical approaches, or at least learn as much as I can of both. In that sense I do care what they think (at least in terms of theory), but I don't care if they don't care what I think.


----------



## Piwikiwi

tdc said:


> Well, personally I like to combine theoretical approaches, or at least learn as much as I can of both. In that sense I do care what they think (at least in terms of theory), but I don't care if they don't care what I think.


I come from a jazz background and I agree that it is best to combine the two approaches. I think that jazz theory books often neglect melody over harmony but I do strongly feel that the way chords, especially seventh chords, are named is way superior and clear in jazz.

The jazz musicians I know all had the ability to instantly play a solo from just looking at a lead sheet. Jazz theory is based on practical everyday use and that might make it simplistic in some ways but like my piano teacher said:"I still need to be able to understand the sheet music when I've had a few beers."

People here might disagree that jazz musicians call this: C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B a melodic minor scale but every jazz musicians will know what it means, and that is ultimately what matters.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Piwikiwi said:


> What like Baroque counterpoint?:'D
> 
> What is wrong with half diminished chords anyway? It is a perfectly logical way to describe the chord in the way it is used in jazz harmony.
> 
> As if any jazz musician will care what a classical musician/theorist etc thinks.:')


Perhaps I should rephrase that as *counterpoint which is not being taught with species method.*

"Half diminished" chords, when seen in context would be much better off as being described as minor 7 flat 5, or dominant 9th without the root.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Perhaps I should rephrase that as *counterpoint which is not being taught with species method.*
> 
> "Half diminished" chords, when seen in context would be much better off as being described as minor 7 flat 5, or dominant 9th without the root.


Why is that?

I do, actually, feel the same way, but I think it is only because the chord symbol Xm7b5 is somewhat easier to read / or that I m more familiar with that. I would be happy to hear if there are any deeper reasons. Music theory, to me, is a practical tool, not a scientific fact. Some music theoretical ideas have been tested empirically, I know, but that's a completely different story. Very interesting story, indeed, but it doesn't probably bring any insight into this.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Chord symbols bring to my mind a funniesque story. I had gotten a job to play the guitar at a local theater in one of their productions. I didn't know in what key the singers would be the most comfortable singing in, so I used roman numerals to make my notes, so I wouldn't be tied to any particular key. Then, at the first rehearsal, the bassist was happy to see that someone actually had notes and came near me to play from my notes. After the first song he looked at me and said: "they're just gibberish".


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Species method is probably the simplest and most straightforward and undoubtedly a *linear* approach to learn counterpoint and not only does it explain two part writing in a step by step fashion but it also gives the necessary knowldge to relate to multiple voice/part writing (more than 2 parts). In theory books I have seen other ways of teaching counterpoint which take its approach from a vertical or harmonic perspective. This makes it more difficult to get a grasp of writing "flowing" lines with an understanding of contour and motion that is taught in the species method.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Species method is probably the simplest and most straightforward and undoubtedly a *linear* approach to learn counterpoint and not only does it explain two part writing in a step by step fashion but it also gives the necessary knowldge to relate to multiple voice/part writing (more than 2 parts). In theory books I have seen other ways of teaching counterpoint which take its approach from a vertical or harmonic perspective. This makes it more difficult to get a grasp of writing "flowing" lines with an understanding of contour and notion that is taught in the species method.


I agree on that. Species counterpoint is, obviously, crucial in understanding reductionist analyses, especially schenkerian. I was referring to the half diminished/minor 7th with a flattened 5th thing you mentioned. I could have quoted your message more clearly.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> I agree on that. Species counterpoint is, obviously, crucial in understanding reductionist analyses, especially schenkerian. I was referring to the half diminished/minor 7th with a flattened 5th thing you mentioned. I could have quoted your message more clearly.


Oh I see! Misunderstood your query.

I feel that the term "half diminshed" is less accurate (half what?) than either describing its function or its intervallic structure.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Oh I see! Misunderstood your query.
> 
> I feel that the term "half diminshed" is less accurate (half what?) than either describing its function or its intervallic structure.


Okay, right. That's completely reasonable. I was just thinking if had more theoretical reasons than just a gut feeling, but I do think feelings are important and as a reason feelings are as good as anything else.

In terms of describing intervallic structure, maybe set theoretical prime forms would be the most accurate way. Half diminished chord would be called <0 2 5 8>. I drew a "modulo 12 circle" (I have no idea what those are actually called but I guess anyone who knows music theory and has calculated prime forms knows what I'm talking about) to determine that. Haven't done that in years. That brought back memories. And it also brought the realization that maybe it is not so intuitive way to describe intervallic structure.


----------



## Piwikiwi

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> "Half diminished" chords, when seen in context would be much better off as being described as minor 7 flat 5, or dominant 9th without the root.


In jazz it is seen used to be seen as a minor 6th chord with the 6th as the root and m7b5 is often used as a symbol for half diminished chords actually. I still want to defend the half diminished chord. The naming convention might be theoretically not entirely correct but nobody cares about that. Jazz is about being creative with music together and therefore the conventions that are already in place are the ones that everybody uses because it avoids confusion. This is not terminology that is only used in analyses but is used by jazz musicians on a daily basis.

Everyone who has some experience with playing jazz knows that a half diminished has a sub dominant function and not a dominant function.


----------



## hpowders

I love Miles Davis. I don't give a flying fruck technically about why. Doesn't make me a bad person.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Piwikiwi said:


> In jazz it is seen used to be seen as a minor 6th chord with the 6th as the root and m7b5 is often used as a symbol for half diminished chords actually. I still want to defend the half diminished chord.


What do you mean? If we have a chord consisting of the notes C - Eb - Gb - Bb the Bb (7th, enharmonically sharp 6th) would be the root - like in the set theoretical description (<0 2 5 8>)? Or a chord consisting of the notes C - Eb - Gb - Bbb (flattened 7th) the Bbb (or enharmonically A, literally the 6th) would be the root?


----------



## Piwikiwi

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> What do you mean? If we have a chord consisting of the notes C - Eb - Gb - Bb the Bb (7th, enharmonically sharp 6th) would be the root - like in the set theoretical description (<0 2 5 8>)? Or a chord consisting of the notes C - Eb - Gb - Bbb (flattened 7th) the Bbb (or enharmonically A, literally the 6th) would be the root?


It's like this Cm7b5 = C Eb Gb Bb. Ebm6 = Eb Gb Bb C. Sixth as root is C. You have the correct reasoning but applied it to the wrong chord. ^^

I must admit that I still have the jazz method of using accidentals, just use what is easiest to read and get angry if someone writes double sharps or double flats. A lot of altered dominant chords can only be written down as a mix of sharps and flats anyway.


----------



## hpowders

I opened the mailbox and there was a CD sized package inside. I was excited because I've been waiting three weeks for the WTC Book 2 with Leonhardt to arrive from Japan.

I opened it up and it was a bracelet from Venice for my wife, quite beautiful, but not what I expected.


----------



## PetrB

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> What do you mean? If we have a chord consisting of the notes C - Eb - Gb - Bb the Bb (7th, enharmonically sharp 6th) would be the root - like in the set theoretical description (<0 2 5 8>)? Or a chord consisting of the notes C - Eb - Gb - Bbb (flattened 7th) the Bbb (or enharmonically A, literally the 6th) would be the root?


Classical common practice has _any_ chord _as spelled in thirds,_ and however those are stacked the chord gets unshuffled to that every other letter sequence, i.e. the Bb you mention is still the 7th, no matter where it sits, because the only way to spell those pitches out in thirds "in the right order and by the book" is ascending -- C E G B, regardless of the inversion or any present accidentals: ergo, it is a C chord (accidentals further altering its disposition of major, minor, etc) with the 7th 'in the bass,' i.e. an inversion, and not a B chord of any sort.

As in key signatures, so in chords / harmony: This right order rule is also the reason / explanation for the 'proper' notational grammar of double-flats or double sharps

Enharmonic spelling just for the sake of naming a harmony something else _if that chord / harmony does not have a harmonic function as that something else_ is a no-no. One never labels a vertical in a classical analysis _unless it is a functioning chord!_

Jazz and pop theory terminology tossed all that rigor and formality out the window (as should be by harmonic usage and how it is thought about) because in both arenas chord function has pretty much been tossed out in favor of harmony as color vs. function (Debussy being the start of all that


----------



## Albert7

Watching The Americans with my stepdad and loving the "chamber music" background for the show.


----------



## DeepR

When I'm under the spell of music, I can get a little carried away. Just recently I thought of music as the ultimate manifestation of the universe. Intelligent life expressing itself through music is the final, greatest thing that can emerge when - against all odds - a miraculous, tiny little spot in an otherwise extremely inhospitable universe has reached its full potential after eons of relative order and stability.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

PetrB said:


> Classical common practice has _any_ chord _as spelled in thirds,_ and however those are stacked the chord gets unshuffled to that every other letter sequence, i.e. the Bb you mention is still the 7th, no matter where it sits, because the only way to spell those pitches out in thirds "in the right order and by the book" is ascending -- C E G B, regardless of the inversion or any present accidentals: ergo, it is a C chord (accidentals further altering its disposition of major, minor, etc) with the 7th 'in the bass,' i.e. an inversion, and not a B chord of any sort.
> 
> As in key signatures, so in chords / harmony: This right order rule is also the reason / explanation for the 'proper' notational grammar of double-flats or double sharps


I'm not sure what is your point here. I thought it was quite obvious that I was trying to understand Piwikiwi's point with those enharmonic interpretations; I wasn't suggesting that they would be reasonable analyses. Apprarently I should have made that clearer. I apologize for my oversight.



> Enharmonic spelling just for the sake of naming a harmony something else _if that chord / harmony does not have a harmonic function as that something else_ is a no-no. One never labels a vertical in a classical analysis _unless it is a functioning chord!_
> 
> Jazz and pop theory terminology tossed all that rigor and formality out the window (as should be by harmonic usage and how it is thought about) because in both arenas chord function has pretty much been tossed out in favor of harmony as color vs. function (Debussy being the start of all that


Well, I think this might be a question of in what function the theory in itself is. Especially jazz musicians usually use music theory /terminology as a tool to aid navigating through complex harmonies, not as an analytic tool per se.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Why do we have to put fleshy hatches over eyes to sleep but not over ears.

I'll read an exerpt from a poem by Eira Stenberg (it's originally in finnish, the terrible translation is mine):

"Ears can not be closed, they are an alarm system
a cochlea in the inner ear and a hammer and an anvil, terrifying organ"

When I was looking for the poem, I realized how inconvenient it is not to have a search option in paper books. I'm glad that they're slowly being replaced with e-books!


----------



## hpowders

It took me a long time but now I can finally say I'm familiar with the score of the Schoenberg Piano Concerto.
A hauntingly beautiful score and a work of incredible genius.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

hpowders said:


> It took me a long time but now I can finally say I'm familiar with the score of the Schoenberg Piano Concerto.
> A hauntingly beautiful score and a work of incredible genius.


Nothing is more boring than having to hear about other people's dreams so I'll tell about mine: Mitsuko Uchida was playing Schönberg's piano concerto in some sort of a sports hall, there were no seats so we were sitting on the floor like a bunch of hippies. The strange part was that I was very attracted to her hands. That's strange because I have never considered myself to be a hands man.

A famous finnish music critic, Seppo Heikinheimo, called Mitsuko's playing syrupy, but I do like the CD with Schönberg's concerto. Her version of Webern's variations - which is on the same CD - is fantastic!


----------



## Cosmos

Discovered Elgar's symphonic Violin Concerto the other day. Blew me away!


----------



## Weston

I just had the excruciating experience of trying to buy mp3 music from Amazon. It has changed very much since the last time. 

First I had invalid card data because I had purchased fuel at a store whose database had become compromised, and the bank has issued a new card. I spent about an hour updating that data and getting Amazon to recognize it, each time I would enter that data the site would empty my cart and I'd have to start over. 

Then once I finally made the purchase, I'm told I am now "permitted" to download music from my on line music library I didn't ask for and didn't know I had. 

So I go to the library and discover everything I've bought from Amazon since cave man days is there ready for me to download -- thousands of files! 

Well I only needed my two recent purchases, so I find them by sorting most recent first. However since my purchase was a nearly complete set of Grieg piano music and one other normal sized album, that is still several hundred files I'd have to individually click and then download. What a giant load of ruminant excrement. Eventually I found how to view this new music library by albums and then download entire albums with one click -- but then I'm told the best way to do it is through a new app that works directly with my phone or other device. Curse it! I don't want to use a phone, don't have one that plays music, and I want these files to play the same way all the other files I already have play, uploaded to my iPod only when I want them. Why, oh why must things that are not broken be changed? 

I think software writers and professional web site designers may surpass lawyers and accountants as the most hated professions on the planet.


----------



## Albert7

Weston said:


> I just had the excruciating experience of trying to buy mp3 music from Amazon. It has changed very much since the last time.
> 
> First I had invalid card data because I had purchased fuel at a store whose database had become compromised, and the bank has issued a new card. I spent about an hour updating that data and getting Amazon to recognize it, each time I would enter that data the site would empty my cart and I'd have to start over.
> 
> Then once I finally made the purchase, I'm told I am now "permitted" to download music from my on line music library I didn't ask for and didn't know I had.
> 
> So I go to the library and discover everything I've bought from Amazon since cave man days is there ready for me to download -- thousands of files!
> 
> Well I only needed my two recent purchases, so I find them by sorting most recent first. However since my purchase was a nearly complete set of Grieg piano music and one other normal sized album, that is still several hundred files I'd have to individually click and then download. What a giant load of ruminant excrement. Eventually I found how to view this new music library by albums and then download entire albums with one click -- but then I'm told the best way to do it is through a new app that works directly with my phone or other device. Curse it! I don't want to use a phone, don't have one that plays music, and I want these files to play the same way all the other files I already have play, uploaded to my iPod only when I want them. Why, oh why must things that are not broken be changed?
> 
> I think software writers and professional web site designers may surpass lawyers and accountants as the most hated professions on the planet.


Sorry to hear about your experience. iTunes so far has been kinder to me than Amazon so I switched.

My thought of the day: music to brighten up on a rainy day is worth a good spiritual thought on Sunday.


----------



## PetrB

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> Why do we have to put fleshy hatches over eyes to sleep but not over ears.
> 
> I'll read an exerpt from a poem by Eira Stenberg (it's originally in finnish, the terrible translation is mine):
> 
> "Ears can not be closed, they are an alarm system
> a cochlea in the inner ear and a hammer and an anvil, terrifying organ"
> 
> When I was looking for the poem, I realized how inconvenient it is not to have a search option in paper books. I'm glad that they're slowly being replaced with e-books!


Without the hearing still in semi-dormant operation, many an infant would go untended or die -- a safety / recognize some sounds / signals of alarm for self-preservation is not a bad thing.

Anyway, if it is your wont, there are earplugs


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

PetrB said:


> Without the hearing still in semi-dormant operation, many an infant would go untended or die -- a safety / recognize some sounds / signals of alarm for self-preservation is not a bad thing.
> 
> Anyway, if it is your wont, there are earplugs


Well, indeed, it is completely true that an alarm system that is functioning all the time is very useful.

It is perplexing how every modality is so different from another, in a very deep sence. Why ears? Why eyes? It would seem that describing different modalities just as different transducing systems for different kinds of energies doesn't capture the overwhelming phenomenological differentness of different modalities. At the same time time there's this deep existential anxiety about the fact that one can never stop perceiving things. Well, death will make it stop in the end.


----------



## hpowders

Cosmos said:


> Discovered Elgar's symphonic Violin Concerto the other day. Blew me away!


Yes. It is my favorite Elgar work; not that there are that many.

Yehudi Menuhin had a very special relationship with the composer and his recordings of it are special.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I have discovered recently that I adore Sibelius. Hooray!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MoonlightSonata said:


> I have discovered recently that I adore Sibelius. Hooray!


Now go listen to Sakari Oramo and the Vienna Philharmonic on YouTube and you'll adore Sibelius even more!


----------



## hpowders

Listening to the Vänskä Beethoven symphony set, there seems to be a haze around the sound, unlike the Chailly set which sounds terrific. Don't know if I can continue. Listened to symphonies 1-3, but the sound really fatigues me.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> Listening to the Vänskä Beethoven symphony set, there seems to be a haze around the sound, unlike the Chailly set which sounds terrific. Don't know if I can continue. Listened to symphonies 1-3, but the sound really fatigues me.


But you've still got 4 and 6 and the rest! Might I stress, *FOUR* and *SIX.* I do very much like Vänskä's Beethoven.


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> But you've still got 4 and 6 and the rest! Might I stress, *FOUR* and *SIX.* I do very much like Vänskä's Beethoven.


I just listened to Vänskä 4 vs Chailly 4, the former with conservative tempos, the latter HIP fast. I prefer the Chailly simply for the sound.

Have you heard the Chailly cycle? Since you prefer HIP, I think you would probably like it.

I'm up to No. 5 in the Vänskä cycle. I will force myself to listen. It's like a tiring haze around the music. Soft passages are so soft, one can barely hear them. I've never heard anything quite like this from a modern recording.

In contrast the Chailly recordings practically jump out of the speakers at you!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> I just listened to Vänskä 4 vs Chailly 4, the former with conservative tempos, the latter HIP fast. I prefer the Chailly simply for the sound.
> 
> Have you heard the Chailly cycle? Since you prefer HIP, I think you would probably like it.
> 
> I'm up to No. 5 in the Vänskä cycle. I will force myself to listen. It's like a tiring haze around the music. Soft passages are so soft, one can barely hear them. I've never heard anything quite like this from a modern recording.
> 
> In contrast the Chailly recordings practically jump out of the speakers at you!


I don't mind Chailly but I prefer Zinman.


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I don't mind Chailly but I prefer Zinman.


Haven't heard Zinman.

Listening to Chailly's B 4...so fast...is it even possible that an orchestra in Beethoven's day could even approach that virtuosic speed...metronome or no metronome?


----------



## StephenTC

I can't believe chicks loved this guy...


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I only just found out that Schnittke was Russian. I thought he was German, for some reason. I probably should have known better, I love his music


----------



## Chronochromie

MoonlightSonata said:


> I only just found out that Schnittke was Russian. I thought he was German, for some reason. I probably should have known better, I love his music


To be fair his name isn't Russian sounding at all.
I was disappointed recently when I found out that Gershwin didn't orchestrate Rhapsody in Blue himself.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Der Leiermann said:


> To be fair his name isn't Russian sounding at all.
> I was disappointed recently when I found out that Gershwin didn't orchestrate Rhapsody in Blue himself.


I remember that disappointment too.


----------



## KenOC

MoonlightSonata said:


> I only just found out that Schnittke was Russian. I thought he was German, for some reason. I probably should have known better, I love his music


All in definition. From Wiki: "Schnittke's father, Harry Viktorovich Schnittke, was Jewish and born in Frankfurt. He moved to the USSR in 1927 and worked as a journalist and translator from the Russian language into German. His mother, Maria Iosifovna Schnittke, was a Volga German born in Russia."


----------



## MoonlightSonata

KenOC said:


> All in definition. From Wiki: ""Schnittke's father, Harry Viktorovich Schnittke, was Jewish and born in Frankfurt. He moved to the USSR in 1927 and worked as a journalist and translator from the Russian language into German. His mother, Maria Iosifovna Schnittke, was a Volga German born in Russia."


Ah, a German name. (relieved face) Now I feel better about myself.


----------



## Chronochromie

KenOC said:


> All in definition. From Wiki: ""Schnittke's father, Harry Viktorovich Schnittke, was Jewish and born in Frankfurt. He moved to the USSR in 1927 and worked as a journalist and translator from the Russian language into German. His mother, Maria Iosifovna Schnittke, was a Volga German born in Russia."


So he was Russian by chance. Nobody needs more great German composers anyway


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

StephenTC said:


> I can't believe chicks loved this guy...
> View attachment 59221


They liked him in women's clothing


----------



## Piwikiwi

I like to promote this album some more because I'm blown away by how awesome it is:


----------



## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> I like to promote this album some more because I'm blown away by how awesome it is:


1. It does sound like good music
2. It doesn't sound to my ears even remotely close to classical music
3. I think the Danny Elfman you posted in the guilty listening thread (!) - non-classical section - is closer to being classical music than this, and probably a little better than this
4. I don't understand how you can claim rock and pop music is crap in some threads and then post things like this and claim they are so great - it is pop music (admittedly creative and well written pop)


----------



## Piwikiwi

tdc said:


> 1. It does sound like good music
> 2. It doesn't sound to my ears even remotely close to classical music


I know


> 3. I think the Danny Elfman you posted in the guilty listening thread (!) - non-classical section - is closer to being classical music than this, and probably a little better than this


 I agree with your first point and disagree with the second.


> 4. I don't understand how you can claim rock and pop music is crap in some threads and then post things like this and claim they are so great - it is pop music (admittedly creative and well written pop)


I will gladly take it back if I said that all pop and rock is crap because that is obviously not the case.


----------



## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> I will gladly take it back if I said that all pop and rock is crap because that is obviously not the case.


Well, I seem to recall you saying something along the lines of - you have no interest in rock because it is boring compared to jazz, so I ask, what makes this so much more musically interesting to you than say The Beatles or Frank Zappa's rock music? The R&B beat? I also remember you saying that Pink Floyd's _Dark Side of the Moon _, was obviously not classical and that you had no interest in it, and that rock fans should just be fine with calling it rock - not classical. So it then just seems a little odd to me that you would post this in the classical section as a great album (which to me suggests you are calling it classical music).


----------



## Piwikiwi

tdc said:


> Well, I seem to recall you saying something along the lines of - you have no interest in rock because it is boring compared to jazz, so I ask, what makes this so much more musically interesting to you than say The Beatles or Frank Zappa's rock music? The R&B beat? I also remember you saying that Pink Floyd's _Dark Side of the Moon _, was obviously not classical and that you had no interest in it, and that rock fans should just be fine with calling it rock - not classical. So it then just seems a little odd to me that you would post this in the classical section as a great album (which to me suggests you are calling it classical music).


I'm obviously not calling it classical music, now you are just being a bit pedantic. I still think most rock is boring and I don't care about the Beatles and I'm not familiar with Zappa's music. Saying that most pop and rock is boring is not the same as saying that all pop and rock is boring. What is your point exactly?


----------



## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> I'm obviously not calling it classical music, now you are just being a bit pedantic. I still think most rock is boring and I don't care about the Beatles and I'm not familiar with Zappa's music. Saying that most pop and rock is boring is not the same as saying that all pop and rock is boring. What is your point exactly?


Its obvious that you aren't calling it classical now because you are saying you aren't - that wasn't previously obvious, hence my initial post and further explanation. I think my other point still stands - based on your previous comments about certain non-classical music it just seems to me posting this in the classical forum is being a tad hypocritical, but perhaps I am also being a bit pedantic - a series of your comments I've recently read regarding rock, hip hop, putting the Elfman in the "guilty pleasure" thread and now posting this here just ruffled my feathers a tad - I'm over it. Its not a big deal.

It seems like good non-classical music, thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Piwikiwi

tdc said:


> Its obvious that you aren't calling it classical now because you are saying you aren't - that wasn't previously obvious, hence my initial post and further explanation. I think my other point still stands - based on your previous comments about certain non-classical music it just seems to me posting this in the classical forum is being a tad hypocritical, but perhaps I am also being a bit pedantic - a series of your comments I've recently read regarding rock, hip hop, putting the Elfman in the "guilty pleasure" thread and now posting this here just ruffled my feathers a tad - I'm over it. Its not a big deal.
> 
> It seems like good non-classical music, thanks for the suggestion.


I like hiphop a lot so I'm sure you are confusing me with someone else when it comes to that. I posted the Danny Elfman video in the guilty pleasure thread because it is a song from a movie aimed at kids.

I don't like generic music and there is a lot of generic rock and pop music but that doesn't mean that the entire genre is terrible.


----------



## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> I like hiphop a lot so I'm sure you are confusing me with someone else when it comes to that. I posted the Danny Elfman video in the guilty pleasure thread because it is a song from a movie aimed at kids.
> 
> I don't like generic music and there is a lot of generic rock and pop music but that doesn't mean that the entire genre is terrible.


I know you like hip hop a lot. We have basically opposite views regarding hip hop and rock. But I do acknowledge there is some good hip hop. But thanks for further explaining, in general I actually respect your views a lot and agree with your posts. Its just a misunderstanding.


----------



## Piwikiwi

tdc said:


> I know you like hip hop a lot. We have basically opposite views regarding hip hop and rock. But I do acknowledge there is some good hip hop. But thanks for further explaining, in general I actually respect your views a lot and agree with your posts. Its just a misunderstanding.


I'm sorry. I misinterpreted your tone of your first post.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

I was looking through my bookshelf for someting light to read. There, hidden between bigger books, was a Garfield comic-strip collection. I used to love some of the jokes when I was a kid, but, unsurprisingly, as an adult they lost all their funniness. Well, I took a look at the book. There was this one strip that was very odd. Logically. In it Garfield has been once again put on a diet and thus has just a carrot to eat. He tries to make it tastier by seasoning it with pepper. He covers the whole carrot and in the end there's just a pile of pepper and under that is the carrot. John then takes a taste of the pile of pepper and comments: "tastes like chocolate cake". I would have anticipated a pile of pepper to taste like a pile of pepper. Am I missing some clever transsubstantiation reference here?


----------



## hpowders

I was quite complimented by a new TC member asking me almost immediately to be a TC friend.
When I looked at this new member's friends' list, I was quite touched to see I was the only one there!

Wow! Either this new member is quite discerning or....well, I won't even go there.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

hpowders said:


> I was quite complimented by a new TC member asking me almost immediately to be a TC friend.
> When I looked at this new member's friends' list, I was quite touched to see I was the only one there!
> 
> Wow! Either this new member is quite discerning or....well, I won't even go there.


I'm not sure if it's the onions I just chopped for a sweet & sour sauce or your message that makes my eyes watery.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> I was looking through my bookshelf for someting light to read. There, hidden between bigger books, was a Garfield comic-strip collection. I used to love some of the jokes when I was a kid, but, unsurprisingly, as an adult they lost all their funniness. Well, I took a look at the book. There was this one strip that was very odd. Logically. In it Garfield has been once again put on a diet and thus has just a carrot to eat. He tries to make it tastier by seasoning it with pepper. He covers the whole carrot and in the end there's just a pile of pepper and under that is the carrot. John then takes a taste of the pile of pepper and comments: "tastes like chocolate cake". I would have anticipated a pile of pepper to taste like a pile of pepper. Am I missing some clever transsubstantiation reference here?


I _think_ (but am not certain) that the implication is that Garfield swapped the carrot for a chocolate cake at some point. Even so, it would still probably taste like pepper, but I can't think of a better explanation, unless the pepper was really cocoa or something.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

hpowders said:


> I was quite complimented by a new TC member asking me almost immediately to be a TC friend.
> When I looked at this new member's friends' list, I was quite touched to see I was the only one there!
> 
> Wow! Either this new member is quite discerning or....well, I won't even go there.


How lovely!
As it happens, I recieved today a friend request from a new member whose only other friend was hpowders. 
Clearly, they have a good taste in friends


----------



## hpowders

MoonlightSonata said:


> How lovely!
> As it happens, I recieved today a friend request from a new member whose only other friend was hpowders.
> Clearly, they have a good taste in friends


Ha! Ha! I just checked! That's too funny! That should now be all the friends list one would ever need!! :lol::lol:


----------



## StephenTC

In the movie "Amadeus", Salieri is looking at Mozart's score and essentially hears what he is looking at: 

I was wondering how common, or not, this sort of ability is?

Do we know if Beethoven had it?


----------



## Blancrocher

I'd always wondered about the free albums on Amazon Prime, and finally decided to learn about them. You can't download them to itunes, but only to a special Prime player. So it's basically allowing free streaming of selected albums for the duration of your Prime subscription rather than free ownership. Basically that part of the service is like Spotify etc. 

Just in case anyone else was curious.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

StephenTC said:


> In the movie "Amadeus", Salieri is looking at Mozart's score and essentially hears what he is looking at:
> 
> I was wondering how common, or not, this sort of ability is?
> 
> Do we know if Beethoven had it?


Good question. Some of those who say Beethoven's deafness had no negative effect on him whatsoever and that his deafness is played up and romanticized rolleyes:, that's absurd to me, of course it had an effect), maintain that he could "hear" or imagine the sounds in his head. Either way, it's impressive and puts me in awe.

There have been accounts of Beethoven laying his head against the piano to feel the vibrations. Other accounts say he sawed the legs off his piano and put his head to the floor... The piano was his instrument, where he felt most comfortable, where he could devise his musical ideas. Not being able to hear what you're playing, well, you can't tell me that had no impeding effects.

I'm sure KenOC has some thoughts on this, he's better versed in Beethoven's biography than I am, he always some great information.


----------



## Albert7

FINALLY got a new set of headphones the ESKUCHE CONTROL V2 for half price at Best Buy today. So awesome with sound and better than my Samsung earbuds.

And less bulky than my Sennheiser or Grado's to bring out.

A must recommend set of headphones for classical listening with iPhone or iPod or Whatever mp3 player you have.


----------



## Weston

Has there ever been a study done on the effects, good or ill, of soft music during sleep? 

By soft I mean low volume. Lately I've been letting Pierre Boulez and other contemporaries play softly in the background while I doubtless accompany them with disturbing rhythmic breathing noises.


----------



## ahammel

StephenTC said:


> In the movie "Amadeus", Salieri is looking at Mozart's score and essentially hears what he is looking at:
> 
> I was wondering how common, or not, this sort of ability is?
> 
> Do we know if Beethoven had it?


I imagine anybody who is accustomed to reading and transcribing music can do that to some degree.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

StephenTC said:


> In the movie "Amadeus", Salieri is looking at Mozart's score and essentially hears what he is looking at:
> 
> I was wondering how common, or not, this sort of ability is?
> 
> Do we know if Beethoven had it?


I think it's safe to assume that people who are accustomed to seeing and studying scores/composing them and who have had the kind of practise of that sort of thing for years would be able to do it.


----------



## hpowders

As was discussed on another thread, it will be 25 years soon that we lost both Aaron Copland and Leonard Bernstein in 1990.

Seemed like only yesterday. I still feel the hurt.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Recommend me your favorite recording of Bartok's _Concerto for Orchestra_! I'm thinking Fritz Reiner/ChicagoSO


----------



## ptr

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Recommend me your favorite recording of Bartok's _Concerto for Orchestra_! I'm thinking Fritz Reiner/ChicagoSO


Rafael Kubelik conducting the Bavarian Radio Orchestra on Orfeo d'Or is amazingly powerful!










/ptr


----------



## Piwikiwi

StephenTC said:


> In the movie "Amadeus", Salieri is looking at Mozart's score and essentially hears what he is looking at:
> 
> I was wondering how common, or not, this sort of ability is?
> 
> Do we know if Beethoven had it?


Very common. It takes a while but I think that the vast majority of composers/conductors can do that. It is the reason why you have solfège/ear training if you study music.

My inner ear is pretty bad but even I can do it with a simple melody and I didn't spend time reading scores everyday for years.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

New conspiracy theory!!

Compare these 2 pieces of music at the selected times:











Anything familiar?

The Gliere symphonic poem was written 15 years before, and it's about an uprising of Cossacks against the ruling power Poland of that time and area. I don't know about you, but Shostakovich definitely knew about Gliere, and if he was trying to have some hidden message of rebellion behind it, I wouldn't be surprised (many think the 5th Symphony is already chock-full of subversive themes).


----------



## Albert7

Got a third round job interview on Wednesday. So excited!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Huilunsoittaja said:


> New conspiracy theory!!
> 
> Compare these 2 pieces of music at the selected times:
> 
> 3:47 - 4:30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Beginning theme in first few minutes)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anything familiar?
> 
> The Gliere symphonic poem was written 15 years before, and it's about an uprising of Cossacks against the ruling power Poland of that time and area. I don't know about you, but Shostakovich definitely knew about Gliere, and if he was trying to have some hidden allusion of rebellion behind it, I wouldn't be surprised (many think the 5th Symphony is already chock-full of subversive themes).


From my experience of Shostakovich symphonies, you don't have to look far for a reference of some sort.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

If somebody told me that Vaughan Williams wrote Bartok's second violin concerto I would believe it.


----------



## tdc

Richannes Wrahms said:


> If somebody told me that Vaughan Williams wrote Bartok's second violin concerto I would believe it.


This would be believable only if it became apparent that Vaughan Williams had another lost body of works that were inspired by psychedelics.


----------



## trazom

:scold:

I'd write more, but I don't want to get put on time-out from the mods...

Hey, I already feel a little bit better.


----------



## maestro267

As it's 2015 here, happy 150th anniversary to Jean Sibelius, Carl Nielsen and Alexander Glazunov!


----------



## Weston

I have an inexpensive guitar just to plunk around on as a mental exercise, but for some reason in the winter time I cannot play it. The strings buzz against the neck. This does not happen in the summer and fall, only in the winter and spring, and has nothing to do with the temperature in the house or how I tune the strings.

Could the wood just not have been seasoned and it's stretching or growing somehow seasonally? It makes no sense to me why it should do this.


----------



## ahammel

Weston said:


> I have an inexpensive guitar just to plunk around on as a mental exercise, but for some reason in the winter time I cannot play it. The strings buzz against the neck. This does not happen in the summer and fall, only in the winter and spring, and has nothing to do with the temperature in the house or how I tune the strings.
> 
> Could the wood just not have been seasoned and it's stretching or growing somehow seasonally? It makes no sense to me why it should do this.


Differences in humidity, maybe?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Weston said:


> I have an inexpensive guitar just to plunk around on as a mental exercise, but for some reason in the winter time I cannot play it. The strings buzz against the neck. This does not happen in the summer and fall, only in the winter and spring, and has nothing to do with the temperature in the house or how I tune the strings.
> 
> Could the wood just not have been seasoned and it's stretching or growing somehow seasonally? It makes no sense to me why it should do this.


Humidity, maybe? I've never observed this on mine.


----------



## tdc

^^ ahammel is correct, changes in humidity can cause all sorts of problems for guitars, which is why you'll find most places that sell them (at least around where I live) keep running humidifiers by the guitars all year around. You can also purchase small portable humidifiers designed for guitars.


----------



## hpowders

I wonder....did God design heaven and hell with the intent of segregating tonal composers from atonal?


----------



## hpowders

Where the hell would I be without the emotional and spiritual sustenance of the solo harpsichord music of J.S. Bach?

Bach is the only composer I can listen to 24/7 without ever getting bored and needing a break.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

hpowders said:


> I wonder....did God design heaven and hell with the intent of segregating tonal composers from atonal?


Yes. The atonal composers get 72 virgins in heaven.


----------



## hpowders

SeptimalTritone said:


> Yes. The atonal composers get 72 virgins in heaven.


Good to know. I'm bringing my CD of Schoenberg's Piano Concerto with me when the time comes.
I'm not the greedy type-I just need 3-5 virgins max.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

1. Music is incomplete.

2. Music will never be complex enough.


----------



## Piwikiwi

hpowders said:


> Where the hell would I be without the emotional and spiritual sustenance of the solo harpsichord music of J.S. Bach?
> 
> Bach is the only composer I can listen to 24/7 without ever getting bored and needing a break.


I noticed that if I listen to too many fugues my head starts to hurt.


----------



## Dim7

Why impressionist piano pieces are cool but orchestral ones sound like bland muzak? You'd think that more instruments = better, but no, not in this case.


----------



## Piwikiwi

Dim7 said:


> Why impressionist piano pieces are cool but orchestral ones sound like bland muzak? You'd think that more instruments = better, but no, not in this case.


I agree when it comes to most debussy but I quite like Ravel's orchestral music like Daphnis et Chloe, his piano concertos, La valse and his two operas.


----------



## Mahlerian

Piwikiwi said:


> I agree when it comes to most debussy but I quite like Ravel's orchestral music like Daphnis et Chloe, his piano concertos, La valse and his two operas.


Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, La Mer, Images, and Jeux are muzak???

Must be bad performances.


----------



## Piwikiwi

Mahlerian said:


> Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, La Mer, Images, and Jeux are muzak???
> 
> Must be bad performances.


Of course not, but I often feel that, aside from jeux, they feel more safe than his piano or chamber works


----------



## ahammel

Is there a word for the process of fitting words to music? E.g., whoever set The Star Spangled Banner screwed this thing up when putting the nice long vowel in 'broad' on a sixteenth note


----------



## Piwikiwi

ahammel said:


> Is there a word for the process of fitting words to music? E.g., whoever set The Star Spangled Banner screwed this thing up when putting the nice long vowel in 'broad' on a sixteenth note


In jazz it is called vocalese but I don't know if that is the correct term in classical music


----------



## StephenTC

If Scriabin had called his Poem of Ecstasy "La Mer" he would have received compliments on his musical evocation of the sea in its many moods.


----------



## StephenTC

Try listening to a favourite piece of music at a much lower volume level than you usually do - you may well notice some textures of the piece you have not noticed before.


----------



## Chronochromie

I was not blown away by Tristan und Isolde as I thought I would be. Still loved it though.


----------



## DeepR

I would rather have a big house and grand piano, but if there's one thing I like about my lowly digital piano it's the transpose button. When my ears get tired from practicing the same piece I just transpose one semitone up and the whole thing sounds fresh again, for a while, that is.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

DeepR said:


> I would rather have a big house and grand piano, but if there's one thing I like about my lowly digital piano it's the transpose button. When my ears get tired from practicing the same piece I just transpose one semitone up and the whole thing sounds fresh again, for a while, that is.


I wish grand/upright pianos came with this... it would make it much easier to play in weird keys.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

DeepR said:


> I would rather have a big house and grand piano, but if there's one thing I like about my lowly digital piano it's the transpose button. When my ears get tired from practicing the same piece I just transpose one semitone up and the whole thing sounds fresh again, for a while, that is.


That's very cunning indeed!


----------



## hpowders

I waited 6 weeks for the arrival of Bach's WTC Book Two to arrive from Japan.

I just wonder, why does that take so long? Second time I ordered a CD from Japan. Last time took 4 weeks.


----------



## PetrB

ahammel said:


> Is there a word for the process of fitting words to music? E.g., whoever set The Star Spangled Banner screwed this thing up when putting the nice long vowel in 'broad' on a sixteenth note


Prosody:
In linguistics, prosody (from Ancient Greek προσῳδία prosōidía [prosɔː(i)díaː], "song sung to music; tone or accent of a syllable") is the rhythm, stress, and intonation of speech.

You're welcome ;-)

P.s. That ^ is what you get when you crib an existing Scottish drinking song and try to fit new words to the same tune with its unchanged rhythm as 'generated' by its original text! (i.e. _bad prosody_ and one of the 'least singable' of national anthems in this world.)

P.p.s. You were ...missed. Very nice to see you back on T.C.


----------



## PetrB

MoonlightSonata said:


> I wish grand/upright pianos came with this... it would make it much easier to play in weird keys.


My Dear MoSo:

Young man! There are no 'weird keys' but only keys you have not practiced the scales of, or pieces written in, enough to have them as familiar.

_Any musician worth their salt, *especially pianists,* must work until they are completely fluent in sight reading and playing in any key signature._

(But you knew that already, didn't you? 

Best regards.


----------



## PetrB

hpowders said:


> I waited 6 weeks for the arrival of Bach's WTC Book Two to arrive from Japan.
> 
> I just wonder, why does that take so long? Second time I ordered a CD from Japan. Last time took 4 weeks.


If I could have found mine, I would have sent it to you. A number of the pages are rather worn, one or two taped at the corners where they gave way while I was playing through and had turned a page a little too vigorously, and of course a good number of them have my markings and fingerings in them.

Oh... wait. I get it.

Sorry, have no idea why that took six weeks.

Frank Loesser told me he thinks it must have been "A slow boat from China."


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

PetrB said:


> My Dear MoSo:
> 
> Young man! There are no 'weird keys' but only keys you have not practiced the scales of, or pieces written in, enough to have them as familiar.
> 
> _Any musician worth their salt, *especially pianists,* must work until they are completely fluent in sight reading and playing in any key signature._
> 
> (But you knew that already, didn't you?
> 
> Best regards.


Yes! Indeed, young man, there is no need to feel down!


----------



## Piwikiwi

PetrB said:


> My Dear MoSo:
> 
> Young man! There are no 'weird keys' but only keys you have not practiced the scales of, or pieces written in, enough to have them as familiar.
> 
> _Any musician worth their salt, *especially pianists,* must work until they are completely fluent in sight reading and playing in any key signature._
> 
> (But you knew that already, didn't you?
> 
> Best regards.


Amen, I mean it is not even that hard.


----------



## DeepR

Fortunately I'm just a hobbyist, I only focus on playing a piano piece to the best of my ability regardless of my barely-existing ability to sight read. When I'm "done" I can play it from muscle memory anyway and I accept the risks of not having it memorized. Yep I'm lazy but it works, especially for shorter pieces.


----------



## PetrB

StephenTC said:


> Try listening to a favourite piece of music at a much lower volume level than you usually do - you may well notice some textures of the piece you have not noticed before.


Good one, and thank you.

Ditto for practicing a piece on an instrument (pianists, _not the una corda, but soft, and or with the lid down)_ or playback of something you're working on with midi -- you hear _everything,_ lol.


----------



## PetrB

PetrB said:


> My Dear MoSo:
> 
> Young man! There are no 'weird keys' but only keys you have not practiced the scales of, or pieces written in, enough to have them as familiar.
> 
> _Any musician worth their salt, *especially pianists,* must work until they are completely fluent in sight reading and playing in any key signature._
> 
> (But you knew that already, didn't you?
> 
> Best regards.





Piwikiwi said:


> Amen, I mean it is not even that hard.


There is really only 'one key,' the others are the same transposed, the various common practice variants are that one key but with a few alterations.

There is but one scale fingering, Variants just start and end on a different finger somewhere within that same pattern.

The rest is really learning more about alphabet spellings and not so much '24 different things in major, natural - melodic and harmonic minors -- reduces that 'laundry list' memorization - "learning" exponentially.

Free for the use and taking.


----------



## scratchgolf

In an effort to bolster my posting numbers, I'll take nearly identical posts and place them in Current Listening, Recent Purchases, Pieces That Have Blown Me Away, Composer Guestbooks, and maybe 3 or 4 other locations. Replace a few select words and nobody will notice. Watch out 1,025 posts! Here I come!


----------



## Albert7

Woot woot... I am nearly getting a new job! The guys just want my recommendations and hopefully that will be just it. Back to computer security stuff


----------



## Albert7

scratchgolf said:


> In an effort to bolster my posting numbers, I'll take nearly identical posts and place them in Current Listening, Recent Purchases, Pieces That Have Blown Me Away, Composer Guestbooks, and maybe 3 or 4 other locations. Replace a few select words and nobody will notice. Watch out 1,025 posts! Here I come!


And that is what we call padding


----------



## trazom

I found while trying to gather up a few one dollar bills someone wrote on one of them "God over money--Matthew 6:24" I appreciate the friendly gesture of imparting some helpful wisdom, and the fact that there might be a deeper message hidden in there somewhere; but I don't see God paying for my lunch today.


----------



## hpowders

I'm puzzled at how some folks seem to be so concerned at what other posters are doing on TC rather than concentrating on the music we are all supposed to be here for.

Meanwhile, if you like Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, Kenneth Weiss is recommended on harpsichord and András Schiff, piano.


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> I'm amused at how some folks seem to be so concerned at what other posters are doing on TC rather than concentrating on the music we are all supposed to be here for.
> 
> Meanwhile, if you like Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, Kenneth Weiss is recommended on harpsichord and András Schiff, piano.


Woot I have Schiff's Book I in my ripped iTunes collection. Great cover too but will try to listen to it at some point.


----------



## MagneticGhost

scratchgolf said:


> In an effort to bolster my posting numbers, I'll take nearly identical posts and place them in Current Listening, Recent Purchases, Pieces That Have Blown Me Away, Composer Guestbooks, and maybe 3 or 4 other locations. Replace a few select words and nobody will notice. Watch out 1,025 posts! Here I come!


Copious posts alert!! Ergo - How Frivolous!!

Don't know how you're going to fit Defenestration in though


----------



## hpowders

albertfallickwang said:


> Woot I have Schiff's Book I in my ripped iTunes collection. Great cover too but will try to listen to it at some point.


Yes. His Book Two is very fine too.

He made two recordings. His earlier WTC is slower than his recent one. I prefer the earlier version.
Comparing his photos from each era, he hasn't aged well.


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> Yes. His Book Two is very fine too.
> 
> He made two recordings. His earlier WTC is slower than his recent one. I prefer the earlier version.
> Comparing his photos from each era, he hasn't aged well.


Yeppers I don't care how he aged. If his playing is like fine wine he can look like an ogre for all I care


----------



## JACE

albertfallickwang said:


> Woot woot... I am nearly getting a new job! The guys just want my recommendations and hopefully that will be just it. Back to computer security stuff


Congrats, albert!!!


----------



## Albert7

JACE said:


> Congrats, albert!!!


Thanks. I would love to support my family again and my music habit too


----------



## hpowders

I've listened to so many great waltzes by Johann Strauss II. Genius? Yes!!

A shame he didn't concentrate on symphonies or orchestral tone poems. This guy could have really been a fantastic serious composer!!


----------



## Albert7

Traded in my old Microsoft Zune 30gb and a few Nokia cell phones at the pawn shop to get a 3rd generation iPod Touch 32gb... works well and nearly new in the box.

Now I can listen to my lossless files on a flash hard drive player woot.


----------



## Piwikiwi

No matter how hard I try, chopin still does absolutely nothing for me. It is very well crafted music but the only emotion it invokes in me is irritation.


----------



## ptr

Piwikiwi said:


> No matter how hard I try, chopin still does absolutely nothing for me. It is very well crafted music but the only emotion it invokes in me is irritation.


LOL, actually, me thinks Chopin is way more fun to play then to listen to! Almost 2 cents worth of comment!

/ptr


----------



## Albert7

I didn't get the job  so feeling down today.


----------



## Manxfeeder

albertfallickwang said:


> I didn't get the job  so feeling down today.











What's wrong with those people?


----------



## Manxfeeder

Piwikiwi said:


> No matter how hard I try, chopin still does absolutely nothing for me. It is very well crafted music but the only emotion it invokes in me is irritation.


Oh, shucks, I also made that random discovery.


----------



## hpowders

I don't like Chopin either. I find it boring. Same with Debussy.

Never happens with J.S. Bach.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Piwikiwi said:


> No matter how hard I try, chopin still does absolutely nothing for me. It is very well crafted music but the only emotion it invokes in me is irritation.


I have to be 'in the mood' to really enjoy Chopin. I must confess that I'm glad we have Bartók, Debussy, Ravel, even Cowell and Ornstein who distilled and enriched the best of Chopin and late Liszt; involuntarily rendering both of them obsolete.


----------



## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> I didn't get the job  so feeling down today.


Any particular reason? Better competitors?


----------



## Piwikiwi

ptr said:


> LOL, actually, me thinks Chopin is way more fun to play then to listen to! Almost 2 cents worth of comment!
> 
> /ptr


Hmm, I think I will give it another chance. One of the reason why I'm not really feeling his music is because I might have the wrong expectations. Fauré is one of my favourite composers and he is influenced enough by him that it sounds very similar. I can't blame Chopin that his music doesn't sound like late 19th century music


----------



## science

Piwikiwi said:


> No matter how hard I try, chopin still does absolutely nothing for me. It is very well crafted music but the only emotion it invokes in me is irritation.


This is probably a good thing. Chopin is one of those composers we're supposed to "leave behind" as we become great listeners.


----------



## violadude

science said:


> This is probably a good thing. Chopin is one of those composers we're supposed to "leave behind" as we become great listeners.


I've never heard anyone say this


----------



## Mahlerian

science said:


> This is probably a good thing. Chopin is one of those composers we're supposed to "leave behind" as we become great listeners.


I guess I'll never be a great listener, then. I don't care, of course.


----------



## Albert7

Job hunting sucks... even talked to one of my references and he gave me a glowing review on the phone. Just puzzled.


----------



## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Job hunting sucks... even talked to one of my references and he gave me a glowing review on the phone. Just puzzled.


Bad times for the world's economy. And tough market.


----------



## Chronochromie

Bruckner + Celibidache = Overkill


----------



## Albert7

Der Leiermann said:


> Bruckner + Celibidache = Overkill


My fav combo  LOL


----------



## MoonlightSonata

hpowders said:


> I've listened to so many great waltzes by Johann Strauss II. Genius? Yes!!
> 
> A shame he didn't concentrate on symphonies or orchestral tone poems. This guy could have really been a fantastic serious composer!!


I would have quite liked to hear a Strauss symphony.


----------



## violadude

MoonlightSonata said:


> I would have quite liked to hear a Strauss symphony.


Meh, he doesn't seem like the type of composer that could handle large symphonic forms very well, but we'll never know for sure.


----------



## Piwikiwi

violadude said:


> Meh, he doesn't seem like the type of composer that could handle large symphonic forms very well, but we'll never know for sure.


I thought you were talking about Richard Strauss and my jaw dropped when reading your post.


----------



## violadude

Piwikiwi said:


> I thought you were talking about Richard Strauss and my jaw dropped when reading your post.


Hahaha. I think if I said that of Richard Strauss it would probably invalidate any other opinion I had about anything for the next 5 years.

Although, I'm not entirely sure how comfortable R. Strauss was with traditional symphonic forms.


----------



## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> Hahaha. I think if I said that of Richard Strauss it would probably invalidate any other opinion I had about anything for the next 5 years.
> 
> Although, I'm not entirely sure how comfortable R. Strauss was with traditional symphonic forms.


He did write a couple of symphonies, but they're both early works. He actually disliked writing large-scale music that wasn't tied to a text. Composing An Alpine Symphony (not really a symphony, of course) was a chore to him.


----------



## DeepR

science said:


> This is probably a good thing. Chopin is one of those composers we're supposed to "leave behind" as we become great listeners.


Haha, joke of the day!


----------



## DeepR

Anyway I'm having trouble listening to music today. Perhaps there is such a thing as too much music.


----------



## Guest

Once again, I find myself thinking today that the system requires a sort of group-petition-for-temporary-ban system. Law and order are two things that could separate us from the metal forums


----------



## Albert7

Waking up today at 5:30 AM was miserable. But I survived.


----------



## Guest

arcaneholocaust said:


> Law and order are two things that could separate us from the metal forums


Law and Order.

Wasn't that a Judas Priest song?

:lol:


----------



## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> He did write a couple of symphonies, but they're both early works. He actually disliked writing large-scale music that wasn't tied to a text. Composing An Alpine Symphony (not really a symphony, of course) was a chore to him.


Isn't Eine Alpensinfonie a masterpiece?


----------



## Lord Lance

DeepR said:


> Anyway I'm having trouble listening to music today. Perhaps there is such a thing as too much music.


_No, there isn't_. *How dare you?*


----------



## maestro267

Throughout music history, there have been so many works that were critically bashed at the time of their premiere, only to be recognized by future generations as a masterpiece. Why is this? Does it mean that music truly is ahead of its time? You'd think, after all this time, that we as an audience would learn the lessons of the past and recognize these masterpieces at the time they appear. Appreciate living composers before they leave us.


----------



## Morimur

maestro267 said:


> Throughout music history, there have been so many works that were critically bashed at the time of their premiere, only to be recognized by future generations as a masterpiece. Why is this? Does it mean that music truly is ahead of its time? You'd think, after all this time, that we as an audience would learn the lessons of the past and recognize these masterpieces at the time they appear. Appreciate living composers before they leave us.


That's a great point. Guns N' Roses' (Axl's really) Chinese Democracy album was universally trashed by critics and fans alike when it came out in 2008. I am sure that by 2016 it'll re-emerge as an underrated (and previously misunderstood!) rock masterpiece by one of greatest musical minds of the 20th century...


----------



## Weston

arcaneholocaust said:


> Once again, I find myself thinking today that the system requires a sort of group-petition-for-temporary-ban system. Law and order are two things that could separate us from the metal forums


I fear that way is a slippery slope toward mob mentality. Burn the witch!


----------



## Weston

Is it true that most composing is rarely more than four part writing, even for large orchestral pieces? I don't remember where I heard or read this. Is there an upper limit to the number of simultaneous things going on we can assimilate?


----------



## scratchgolf

Waiting three seconds to "like" consecutive posts is mildly annoying but soon forgotten. Waiting a lifetime for an individual to post something "like-worthy" is funny. Especially when they've mentioned it on multiple occasions.


----------



## science

scratchgolf said:


> Waiting three seconds to "like" consecutive posts is mildly annoying but soon forgotten. Waiting a lifetime for an individual to post something "like-worthy" is funny. Especially when they've mentioned it on multiple occasions.


Gimme another chance, Scratch. Or two more chances. I can do it.



Morimur said:


> That's a great point. Guns N' Roses' (Axl's really) Chinese Democracy album was universally trashed by critics and laymen alike when it came out in 2008. I am sure that by 2016 it'll re-emerge as an underrated (and previously misunderstood!) rock masterpiece by one of greatest musical minds of the 20th century...


Dude was playing the long game. If democracy ever comes to China, he's going to sell about a billion CDs overnight.


----------



## violadude

Weston said:


> Is it true that most composing is rarely more than four part writing, even for large orchestral pieces? I don't remember where I heard or read this. Is there an upper limit to the number of simultaneous things going on we can assimilate?


It's true for most music from about the middle of the Renaissance to the end of the Romantic Era.


----------



## ahammel

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Isn't Eine Alpensinfonie a masterpiece?


If you like, but Richard is on record saying that composing it was about as much fun as killing cockroaches.


----------



## Mahlerian

maestro267 said:


> Throughout music history, there have been so many works that were critically bashed at the time of their premiere, only to be recognized by future generations as a masterpiece. Why is this? Does it mean that music truly is ahead of its time? You'd think, after all this time, that we as an audience would learn the lessons of the past and recognize these masterpieces at the time they appear. Appreciate living composers before they leave us.


It is not true of course that _all_ of the great works were seen as aberrant in their own time, nor is it true by any means that all works seen as aberrant in their own time are later considered great, but I think there is a good reason for this kind of reaction.

If something is truly new and also good, what is noticed by critics and audiences who are accustomed to the old is that those aspects are different from what they know. This difference is perceived as a fault because it does not fit into their ideas about art. This is why composers have been criticized at times for the very things at which they excel: those elements are the ones that stand out because they are different.

Some of our ideas of music "ahead of its time" stem from Wagner, whose works, because of an essay he wrote, came to be known as the "music of the future," which led to much critical vituperation. This has also led to comments regarding composers that "If X music is accepted by future audiences, I don't want to live to see it!"

(X= Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, late Beethoven, Bruckner, Debussy, Mahler, Brahms, Strauss, Schoenberg, Ravel, Stravinsky, etc.)


----------



## Albert7

I have some bad news: my wife and I are separated. Feeling awful.


----------



## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> I have some bad news: my wife and I are separated. Feeling awful.


Like _right now_?Or is this a few days old news which you're sharing with TC now?


----------



## Weston

That is indeed an awful feeling for both parties involved. Hang in there.


----------



## PeteW

albertfallickwang said:


> I have some bad news: my wife and I are separated. Feeling awful.


I am so, so sorry to hear that. You are not alone, you are not alone.


----------



## Dim7

Am I a tone-deaf moron for thinking that all the major keys are basically the same in mood and character, and the same for all the minor keys?


----------



## ptr

Dim7 said:


> Am I a tone-deaf moron for thinking that all the major keys are basically the same in mood and character, and the same for all the minor keys?


Yes, self procured lobotomy is the only cure! 

/ptr


----------



## Lord Lance

ptr said:


> Yes, self procured lobotomy is the only cure!
> 
> /ptr


Because of one Rosemary Kennedy isn't sufficient.


----------



## Albert7

Will be busy studying for a TSQL test online for a job application.


----------



## PeteW

albertfallickwang said:


> Will be busy studying for a TSQL test online for a job application.


Best of luck, Go for it!


----------



## violadude

For people like myself who can "hear" the right notes in their head while looking at the score, either through natural gift or training, reading a part for transposing instrument and listening to it at the same time is really frustrating.


----------



## Piwikiwi

violadude said:


> For people like myself who can "hear" the right notes in their head while looking at the score, either through natural gift or training, reading a part for transposing instrument and listening to it at the same time is really frustrating.


As someone who is used to playing a transposing instrument, I can't help but enjoy posts like this


----------



## violadude

Piwikiwi said:


> As someone who is used to playing a transposing instrument, I can't help but enjoy posts like this


It's even worse with scrodatura string instruments. At least with transposing woodwinds and brass and such all the notes on the page have the same corresponding sounded note. But with scrodatura string instruments, the strings are usually not tuned in 5ths, so an "F" could be written as Eb on one string and Db on another string.


----------



## Piwikiwi

violadude said:


> It's even worse with scrodatura string instruments. At least with transposing woodwinds and brass and such all the notes on the page have the same corresponding sounding note. But with scrodatura string instruments, the strings are usually not tuned in 5ths, so an "F" could be written as Eb on one string and Db on another string.


What? That is just awful:s as if writing for string isn't hard enough


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I often wonder why exactly it is that I don't like pieces that are by the same composer and in the exact same style as other pieces that I love, to the point that I become obsessive about trying dozens of new performances and experimenting with speed and pitch changes, and I'm finding that changing the pitch is one of the few things that will actually work a little. I have very early memories of hearing things and _liking_ them, but having a vague intuition that I would love them if the sound was somehow higher and happier, or heavier and more melancholy, and my brain would naturally adjust the knobs on such pieces when I "played" them in my head; even now I notice myself doing that.

I wonder if my brain defines some specific, but clearly fluid, configuration for my musical taste and then a corresponding list of specialized criteria (pitch, tempo, instrument, etc, but nothing that involves changing any notes) for any given melody or passage which must be adhered to if that piece is to move me, and if all of the music that eludes me would be within my reach if I just knew which aspect to readjust. It just bothers me so much when I continue to feel nothing for something great even after I've become intimate with it. What is it that changes when the enlightenment for a certain piece happens?

On a sidenote, it is the fickleness of that goosebumps response which makes me hesitant to agree with people when they say it should be the chief means of measuring the quality of something.


----------



## Dim7

I don't know if I'm the only one like this, but especially when I was younger, and even now to a lesser degree, if somebody smart-sounding, eloquent poster said something negative about music/movies/books/whatever that I liked, it used to make me feel bad about liking those things. "That poster sounds really smart, I should agree with him." 

So in order to not make anyone feel bad about anything I suggest everyone on this forum should try sound like an utter and total moron when they say anything negative about anything.


----------



## Figleaf

Dim7 said:


> I don't know if I'm the only one like this, but especially when I was younger, and even now to a lesser degree, if somebody smart-sounding, eloquent poster said something negative about music/movies/books/whatever that I liked, it used to make me feel bad about liking those things. "That poster sounds really smart, I should agree with him."
> 
> So in order to not make anyone feel bad about anything I suggest everyone on this forum should try sound like an utter and total moron when they say anything negative about anything.


Most smart, articulate people are philistines, same as most regular people. It was the very first thing I learned at university  Their opinions on aesthetic matters should carry no more weight than that of any random person, although they may be able to fight their corner more adeptly. This is good, because arguing with people who are at least superficially clever forces you to raise your game and really analyse why it is that you like something, which is a useful exercise in itself.

I'm sure that the older you has figured all this out and can give as good as he gets. I'm just thinking out loud because I'm bored, miserable and procrastinating.


----------



## Albert7

Today has been a tough morning for me again.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Dim7 said:


> I don't know if I'm the only one like this, but especially when I was younger, and even now to a lesser degree, if somebody smart-sounding, eloquent poster said something negative about music/movies/books/whatever that I liked, it used to make me feel bad about liking those things. "That poster sounds really smart, I should agree with him."
> 
> So in order to not make anyone feel bad about anything I suggest everyone on this forum should try sound like an utter and total moron when they say anything negative about anything.


I don't think I need to try. I do it naturally.


----------



## Weston

Dim7 said:


> I don't know if I'm the only one like this, but especially when I was younger, and even now to a lesser degree, if somebody smart-sounding, eloquent poster said something negative about music/movies/books/whatever that I liked, it used to make me feel bad about liking those things. "That poster sounds really smart, I should agree with him."
> 
> So in order to not make anyone feel bad about anything I suggest everyone on this forum should try sound like an utter and total moron when they say anything negative about anything.


Well, I'll have to rethink the post I was about to make. Hmmm. . .

That Ceaser Frank guy that wrote the one symphony in D? Was he lazy or what? I heard the 2nd movement today at work and it sounded like "We are poor little lambs, who have lost are way - Baa, baa, baa." Anyone else hear how he stoled that song?


----------



## trazom

I wrote a long, detailed argument on why one person's post was stupid and by the time I was done i felt bad and didn't want to post it anymore, so I deleted it. God, I hate being me. I want the empathic portion of my brain excised right now.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

http://tonedeaftest.com/

You're welcome. :tiphat:


----------



## Mahlerian

Huilunsoittaja said:


> http://tonedeaftest.com/
> 
> You're welcome. :tiphat:





> Result: Not tone deaf!
> Stage A: 12/12
> Stage B: 12/12
> Stage C: 12/12
> Final score: 36/36 = 100%
> 
> Congratulations, you are not tone deaf!


Umm...thanks...I think?

Edit: Alternatively, answering every question wrong gets you the following:



> Result: Tone deaf!
> Stage A: 0/12
> Stage B: 0/12
> Stage C: 0/12
> Final score: 0/36 = 0%
> 
> You might be tone deaf...
> Your score indicates that you might be tone deaf. However this is not necessarily conclusive.


Well, if I were actually tone deaf, there's a very low chance that I would actually choose wrong in every instance...


----------



## Albert7

Listened to Grimaud's piano while taking my TSQL test online... done in 40 minutes or so before the iTunes album was up. Hopefully Beethoven will help me do well on this examination.

Also I've been spending each morning selling off my book (novel and some art books) collection. Less clutter would be nice and I can't wait for my daughter to come over and visit me at my stepdad's condo soon.


----------



## musicrom

I'm trying to figure out how 12-tone music works right now, and I was wondering:

How are the opening notes in Berg's Violin Concerto "allowed?" I thought that notes can't repeat until every other note has been used once.


----------



## Mahlerian

musicrom said:


> I'm trying to figure out how 12-tone music works right now, and I was wondering:
> 
> How are the opening notes in Berg's Violin Concerto "allowed?" I thought that notes can't repeat until every other note has been used once.


It's true, this is a rule, except when:

1) You're switching to a different row form, in which case notes will inevitably appear more quickly than others.
2) You're oscillating between two notes or an ostinato of a few notes, which is fine so long as the row continues after the ostinato finishes.
3) You feel like writing it that way.

Compare the opening of Schoenberg's Third Quartet:









The ostinato is not treated as "part of the row," though it includes the notes which are not used in either the first violin or cello parts. Immediately following this page, the ostinato shifts to G#-E#-F#-B-D, preserving the general contour but not the exact intervals.

In the Berg concerto, imagine all of the sounding notes as chords, and the notes are sustained rather than repeated.









The repetitions for each chord are just suspensions from the previous one.


----------



## PeteW

albertfallickwang said:


> I sucked at that computer test yesterday. It was hard.


What is the TSLQ test (pardon my ignorance). 
Can you take it again?


----------



## PeteW

albertfallickwang said:


> TSQL = transact SQL computer language. No redux.
> 
> I hate waiting in line at Wal Mart. I hate waiting in line at Wal Mart.


Thankyou - sounds v tricky, not my area of knowledge at all!

Re supermarket shopping - yes, usually a tedious chore, but in fact lately I have discovered that the whole thing can be made quite enjoyable simply with phone + in-ear headphones and I'm suddenly pottering around the fruit & veg in my own little musical world - radio or playlists (applies to the checkout queue as well of course).


----------



## Sloe

Huilunsoittaja said:


> http://tonedeaftest.com/
> 
> You're welcome. :tiphat:


Result: Not tone deaf!

Stage A: 12/12
Stage B: 12/12
Stage C: 11/12
Final score: 35/36 = 97%


----------



## Dim7

Two random music related questions: 

If there are two melodies of different contour but same rhythm, is that homophony or polyphony/counterpoint?

Does anyone know movements in sonata-allegro form where the first subject group is in a minor key in the exposition and in a major key in the recapitulation, or vice versa? Seems like an obvious trick to do but can't remember hearing anything like that.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Dim7 said:


> Two random music related questions:
> 
> If there are two melodies of different contour but same rhythm, is that homophony or polyphony/counterpoint?


I _think_ that would be counterpoint - two melodies at once, after all.


Dim7 said:


> Does anyone know movements in sonata-allegro form where the first subject group is in a minor key in the exposition and in a major key in the recapitulation, or vice versa? Seems like an obvious trick to do but can't remember hearing anything like that.


Apart from one I wrote, I can't immediately think of any.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Dim7 said:


> Two random music related questions:
> 
> If there are two melodies of different contour but same rhythm, is that homophony or polyphony/counterpoint?


First species counterpoint.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I didn't know whether to post this here or on Latest Purchases, lol. Well, I got a piano! I'm happy. 

Got it used on craigslist, needs a minor "tune up" and then it's good to go. None of the keys are stuck, it's in fairly decent condition.


----------



## Albert7

Tonight some tacos with baroque music... just perfect.

 I look forward to an evening of great music on tinychat while CD ripping.


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

Something disturbing about Youtube:
A video of a guy singing with his puppy has 16 TIMES more views as this video of Janine Jansen playing Vaughan Williams's "The Lark Ascending".
A link:


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Queen of the Nerds said:


> Something disturbing about Youtube:
> A video of a guy singing with his puppy has 16 TIMES more views as this video of Janine Jansen playing Vaughan Williams's "The Lark Ascending".
> A link:


LOL, welcome to the wonderful world of YouTube. Beware the comment section, for it is dark and full of terrors.

That said, YouTube was absolutely vital in my exploration of unknown composers (Spotify has taken its place, for the most part). The suggested videos on the right side of the page can be addicting! It's how I came to get a taste of Schoenberg's music before better exploring his oeuvre. YouTube also brings back fond memories of when I just started listening to classical, YouTube played a crucial part.

Forgive the aside.


----------



## Figleaf

Queen of the Nerds said:


> Something disturbing about Youtube:
> A video of a guy singing with his puppy has 16 TIMES more views as this video of Janine Jansen playing Vaughan Williams's "The Lark Ascending".
> A link:


I like YouTube because people upload long-deleted recordings from the past 115 years which the CD reissue companies won't touch. (These also tend to attract intelligent, constructive comments- and I don't just mean my comments. )My son likes youtube because he can watch all kinds of DIY comedy videos featuring lavatorial humour, uploaded by his fellow 14 year olds. The fact that his favourites get tens of thousands of hits while mine barely make it into double figures doesn't bother me- the point is that there's something for everyone.

I agree with you about the cute puppy/kitten videos though- boring!!!


----------



## Chris

Queen of the Nerds said:


> Something disturbing about Youtube:
> A video of a guy singing with his puppy has 16 TIMES more views as this video of Janine Jansen playing Vaughan Williams's "The Lark Ascending".


Don't get upset by the video of the man singing with his puppy. It will soon be usurped by a skateboarding budgie.


----------



## Guest

"Random thought": Of the baited and the baiter, are the baited truly the only ones that deserve a slap on the wrist?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Chris said:


> Don't get upset by the video of the man singing with his puppy. It will soon be usurped by a skateboarding budgie.


Which will in turn be superseded by by a traumatised cat.


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

DiesIraeVIX said:


> LOL, welcome to the wonderful world of YouTube. Beware the comment section, for it is dark and full of terrors.
> 
> That said, YouTube was absolutely vital in my exploration of unknown composers (Spotify has taken its place, for the most part). The suggested videos on the right side of the page can be addicting! It's how I came to get a taste of Schoenberg's music before better exploring his oeuvre. YouTube also brings back fond memories of when I just started listening to classical, YouTube played a crucial part.
> 
> Forgive the aside.


The one thing I like about YouTube is the ability to find new classical music quickly and based upon your tastes.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

arcaneholocaust said:


> "Random thought": Of the baited and the baiter, are the baited truly the only ones that deserve a slap on the wrist?


Yup! I'm pretty sure I know what you mean. I've recently received a warning for "being baited". Completely worth every penny, though. :tiphat:


----------



## Janspe

This isn't exactly a _discovery_ per se, as it happened in a dream, but I'll write it down anyway...

So I had this dream where György Ligeti was still alive (mind you, that alone would've been a fine dream) and composing actively. But the best thing was that out of nowhere, he composed a set of 18 violin études for *me*, out of all people! I received the score eventually and went through the pieces with a lot of violinist friends, and we had so much fun! What awesome music it was, too bad I can't remember a single note. After that, I proceeded to play the Mendelssohn concerto.

Note: I don't play the violin in real life. Hence, it was pretty awesome to feel all that great music swirling out of the instrument.

But after waking up I've felt this emptiness inside me; where the hell did my 18 Ligeti études go!?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Janspe said:


> This isn't exactly a _discovery_ per se, as it happened in a dream, but I'll write it down anyway...
> 
> So I had this dream where György Ligeti was still alive (mind you, that alone would've been a fine dream) and composing actively. But the best thing was that out of nowhere, he composed a set of 18 violin études for *me*, out of all people! I received the score eventually and went through the pieces with a lot of violinist friends, and we had so much fun! What awesome music it was, too bad I can't remember a single note. After that, I proceeded to play the Mendelssohn concerto.
> 
> Note: I don't play the violin in real life. Hence, it was pretty awesome to feel all that great music swirling out of the instrument.
> 
> But after waking up I've felt this emptiness inside me; where the hell did my 18 Ligeti études go!?


Oh man! That's amazing! And I know that feeling after waking up!

I remember a dream I had once (not as awesome as yours) I just happened to own a certain Bernstein box set. I woke up and looked for it for the first half of the day only to realise that I don't actually own a copy 

But now I really want to hear Ligeti's 18 violin études!


----------



## Dim7

Why there are so many "the last Great Romantic"s? Like Mahler, R.Strauss, Sibelius, Vaughan-Williams, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff...


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I've only dreamt with a composer once. We were on a misty beach at night and he was whispering something with a tenor voice, while staring at the calm sea.


----------



## Mahlerian

Dim7 said:


> Why there are so many "the last Great Romantic"s? Like Mahler, R.Strauss, Sibelius, Vaughan-Williams, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff...


Because people don't even realize that Schoenberg wrote more Romantic music than Shostakovich ever did.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Janspe said:


> This isn't exactly a _discovery_ per se, as it happened in a dream, but I'll write it down anyway...
> 
> So I had this dream where György Ligeti was still alive (mind you, that alone would've been a fine dream) and composing actively. But the best thing was that out of nowhere, he composed a set of 18 violin études for *me*, out of all people! I received the score eventually and went through the pieces with a lot of violinist friends, and we had so much fun! What awesome music it was, too bad I can't remember a single note. After that, I proceeded to play the Mendelssohn concerto.
> 
> Note: I don't play the violin in real life. Hence, it was pretty awesome to feel all that great music swirling out of the instrument.
> 
> But after waking up I've felt this emptiness inside me; where the hell did my 18 Ligeti études go!?


Eighteen Ligeti violin etudes.... *drools*


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

Two things:
1. Why would ANYONE name their son Camille (obviously a girl's name)?
2. The second movement of Beethoven's Sixth is called "Szene Am *Bach*" which translates to "Scene by the Brook".
Two parts:
1. So in English, Bach's name is Johann Sebastian Brook.
2. Did Beethoven title the movement this way as a subtle homage to Bach?


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

Queen of the Nerds said:


> The one thing I like about YouTube is the ability to find new classical music quickly and based upon your tastes.


There's a second reason: good educational videos!


----------



## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> Because people don't even realize that Schoenberg wrote more Romantic music than Shostakovich ever did.


Is Shostakovich modern then? Why?


----------



## Albert7

Trying to get back into listening to Bartok without feeling depressed again.


----------



## Chris

On Radio 3 this morning they played part of a trombone sonata by Paul Hindemith. In forty years music listening that is the first time I have heard a trombone sonata. I'm not expecting to encounter many more.


----------



## Mahlerian

Dim7 said:


> Is Shostakovich modern then? Why?


Put simply, there is no way Shostakovich's music could possibly have existed in the 19th century. His music is neither Romantic in character nor in technique. He makes use of post-common practice harmony, melody, and rhythm.

Schoenberg, on the other hand, did write at least a few pieces which are unquestionably Romantic-era music, and even his Modernism is often Romantic in character (personally expressive, richly chromatic), as opposed to the Neoclassical tendencies which Shostakovich picked up via Stravinsky and Hindemith (detached expression, intentionally limited timbral palette).


----------



## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> Put simply, there is no way Shostakovich's music could possibly have existed in the 19th century. His music is neither Romantic in character nor in technique. He makes use of post-common practice harmony, melody, and rhythm.
> 
> Schoenberg, on the other hand, did write at least a few pieces which are unquestionably Romantic-era music, and even his Modernism is often Romantic in character (personally expressive, richly chromatic), as opposed to the Neoclassical tendencies which Shostakovich picked up via Stravinsky and Hindemith (detached expression, intentionally limited timbral palette).


You're probably right to the extent that the romantic works by Schoenberg (of which I am a huge fan of) are more romantic than anything Shostakovich ever wrote. But still, categorizing music is always quite subjective and the lines are blurry. Shostakovich sounds significantly more "traditionally tonal" than say, Bartok, and to most listeners it's still closer to romanticism than neo-classicism, so I don't think it's exactly unreasonable to lump into the rather broad "romantic" category. You could also make the argument that Brahms was really "classical" and not romantic, especially if Beethoven was classical.


----------



## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> Put simply, there is no way Shostakovich's music could possibly have existed in the 19th century. His music is neither Romantic in character nor in technique. He makes use of post-common practice harmony, melody, and rhythm.


But Shostakovich was a serial backslider, sometimes with hardly a touch of irony.


----------



## Mahlerian

Dim7 said:


> You're probably right to the extent that the romantic works by Schoenberg (of which I am a huge fan of) are more romantic than anything Shostakovich ever wrote. But still, categorizing music is always quite subjective and the lines are blurry. Shostakovich sounds significantly more "traditionally tonal" than say, Bartok, and to most listeners it's still closer to romanticism than neo-classicism, so I don't think it's exactly unreasonable to lump into the rather broad "romantic" category. You could also make the argument that Brahms was really "classical" and not romantic, especially if Beethoven was classical.


Bartok, like Messiaen and Debussy, is more modally based, as opposed to both the non-tonal chromaticism of the Expressionists and the non-functional diatonicism of the Neoclassicists. Shostakovich was a bit eclectic, like Britten, and borrowed bits of both Neoclassicism and Expressionism.

But if Shostakovich is romantic, broadly speaking, then I would say that Schoenberg, in all of his periods, is most certainly romantic, broadly speaking. You couldn't have Shostakovich's style without Schoenberg, anyway.



KenOC said:


> But Shostakovich was a serial backslider, sometimes with hardly a touch of irony.


There are a few inflections here and there that give it away, though this movement does indeed sound much more Romantic than most Shostakovich. It's hardly characteristic, though.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Piwikiwi said:


> Of course not, but I often feel that, aside from jeux, they feel more safe than his piano or chamber works


Nuages must have sounded like alien music back then and Iberia's still got all the polyrhythms, to say the least.


----------



## hpowders

It's amazing. I can find enough concentrated spirituality in any 3-5 minute Bach fugue from his Well Tempered Clavier as I can in the entire B minor mass.

What an incredible composer!


----------



## tdc

hpowders said:


> It's amazing. I can find enough concentrated spirituality in any 3-5 minute Bach fugue from his Well Tempered Clavier as I can in the entire B minor mass.


Much as I love the WTC - and agree that there is an element of spirituality in all of Bach's works - I find the most spirituality in works like the _B-Minor Mass_, _St. Matthews Passion_ and _Christmas Oratorio_. To each their own. I do enjoy your enthusiasm for Bach's keyboard works, and I plan to purchase some of your recommendations.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Recently, I have had dreams recently involving classical music, which is not too odd. What is odd, though, is that the so called "Mahler Symphony" that I dreamed of last night was certainly not Mahler, and the "Allegri Miserere" was for viola solo.
Since both were stunningly beautiful, I feel like I've missed the chance to write my own "devil's trill" sort of thing.
Bother.


----------



## Weston

Anyone seen this thing? I want one.


----------



## Weston

Here's the article about it.

And here are sound samples.


----------



## hpowders

tdc said:


> Much as I love the WTC - and agree that there is an element of spirituality in all of Bach's works - I find the most spirituality in works like the _B-Minor Mass_, _St. Matthews Passion_ and _Christmas Oratorio_. To each their own. I do enjoy your enthusiasm for Bach's keyboard works, and I plan to purchase some of your recommendations.


Nice to hear. Thank you! Do you like Bach on the harpsichord or do you prefer piano?


----------



## tdc

hpowders said:


> Nice to hear. Thank you! Do you like Bach on the harpsichord or do you prefer piano?


Both. I like Bach performed on most instruments. I know you prefer harpsichord, I only have harpsichord versions that came with the Bach Complete on Brilliant Classics. I'm thinking about getting additional versions by Leonhardt, Weiss, and maybe Pinnock - what would you recommend first?


----------



## tdc

Weston said:


> Anyone seen this thing? I want one.


Interesting for sure, thus far I can't detect a significant amount of improvement in sound over a regular piano, maybe need to hear a better recording. Some additional info here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/36100-new-piano.html


----------



## science

MoonlightSonata said:


> Recently, I have had dreams recently involving classical music, which is not too odd. What is odd, though, is that the so called "Mahler Symphony" that I dreamed of last night was certainly not Mahler, and the "Allegri Miserere" was for viola solo.
> Since both were stunningly beautiful, I feel like I've missed the chance to write my own "devil's trill" sort of thing.
> Bother.


I really wouldn't mind hearing Allegri's _Miserere_ arranged for strings. Talls's _Spem in Alium_ worked out well enough.


----------



## science

Weston said:


> Anyone seen this thing? I want one.


In case you ever need to fly a piano to Mars?

Well, I hope to hear one in concert someday, here on earth or in a galaxy far, far away!


----------



## Piwikiwi

If you are bored right now you should watch this.






A brilliant pianist is live streaming.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

science said:


> I really wouldn't mind hearing Allegri's _Miserere_ arranged for strings. Talls's _Spem in Alium_ worked out well enough.


Yes, it would be lovely, but the dream piece wasn't actually Allegri.


----------



## MagneticGhost

There is no Composer Guestbook entry for Monteverdi!!
Shocker!
.


----------



## science

MagneticGhost said:


> There is no Composer Guestbook entry for Monteverdi!!
> Shocker!
> .


Wow.

I'm on it....


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I hate national anthems. It's the most outdated disgusting thing that gets 'revived' every [email protected] year. I particularly hate one, which can be found quoted in plenty of classical and non-classical pieces.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I hate national anthems. It's the most outdated disgusting thing that gets 'revived' every [email protected] year. I particularly hate one, which can be found quoted in plenty of classical and non-classical pieces.


Which one is this?


----------



## senza sordino

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I hate national anthems. It's the most outdated disgusting thing that gets 'revived' every [email protected] year. I particularly hate one, which can be found quoted in plenty of classical and non-classical pieces.


I tend to agree. I don't sing our national anthem on purpose. Nationalism isn't always healthy or pretty.


----------



## ahammel

Something I've either noticed or imagined about the movements of Mahler 7:

I: horn call motif
II: horn call motif / waltz secondary material 
III: waltz secondary material / ???
IV: ??? / _Meistersinger_ allusion (mandolin)
V: _Meistersinger _allusion (act 1 prelude quotations)

Is there something that similarly links the third and fourth movements, or am I just barking around the mulberry bush?


----------



## Mahlerian

ahammel said:


> Something I've either noticed or imagined about the movements of Mahler 7:
> 
> I: horn call motif
> II: horn call motif / waltz secondary material
> III: waltz secondary material / ???
> IV: ??? / _Meistersinger_ allusion (mandolin)
> V: _Meistersinger _allusion (act 1 prelude quotations)
> 
> Is there something that similarly links the third and fourth movements, or am I just barking around the mulberry bush?


Hmm...I'm not sure if this whole scheme was intentional, but perhaps you could say that they have the same key signature constitutes a link (III: d minor, IV: F major).


----------



## Figleaf

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I hate national anthems. It's the most outdated disgusting thing that gets 'revived' every [email protected] year. I particularly hate one, which can be found quoted in plenty of classical and non-classical pieces.


I hope it's 'God save the Queen'- it is for me. Not just nationalistic but religious (nothing wrong with religion but it shouldn't be mandatory) and monarchist. Not only monarchist, but forelock-tuggingly, cringingly, self abasingly so. Anyone who sings it voluntarily loses a little dignity in my eyes.


----------



## Ingélou

Figleaf said:


> I hope it's 'God save the Queen'- it is for me. Not just nationalistic but religious (nothing wrong with religion but it shouldn't be mandatory) and monarchist. Not only monarchist, but forelock-tuggingly, cringingly, self abasingly so. Anyone who sings it voluntarily loses a little dignity in my eyes.


The words are pretty dreadful. As a student, when it was played at the end of cinema performances, I would rush for the exit, or even stay ostentatiously seated. But now I do appreciate its grandeur, and its playing moves me - if patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, as Dr Johnson says, then I must be becoming more caddish with age!


----------



## Art Rock

The origin of do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-si-do.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Figleaf said:


> I hope it's 'God save the Queen'- it is for me. Not just nationalistic but religious (nothing wrong with religion but it shouldn't be mandatory) and monarchist. Not only monarchist, but forelock-tuggingly, cringingly, self abasingly so. Anyone who sings it voluntarily loses a little dignity in my eyes.


It's quite telling that I like it more now that I live in NZ.
Nice tune though.


----------



## Figleaf

MoonlightSonata said:


> It's quite telling that I like it more now that I live in NZ.
> Nice tune though.


I'm sure there are loads of British things I'll get misty eyed about when I no longer live here. I'd be massively surprised if that song is one of them though!


----------



## ahammel

_Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save The King._

Unofficial anti-Jacobite verse.

I think you lot should go with _Jerusalem_, personally.


----------



## Wood

Verse two is particularly odious:

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

and the supplementary verse is clearly not appropriate for a National Anthem:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save The King.

(Although Wade did make some good roads across the hills.)

The Sex Pistols had a good shot at it.






If I recall correctly this single got to number one even though it was banned. Outrageous censorship.


----------



## ahammel

Wood said:


> Verse two is particularly odious:


At least it's not "popish tricks" anymore!


----------



## Wood

ahammel said:


> At least it's not "popish tricks" anymore!


Progress I suppose.

I like the idea that the tune was originally composed by Lully to celebrate the survival of Louis XIV after an operation on his an#l fistula.

It might help one decide where we could shove this unpleasant anthem into oblivion.


----------



## Figleaf

Wood said:


> Verse two is particularly odious:
> 
> O Lord our God arise,
> Scatter her enemies,
> And make them fall:
> Confound their politics,
> Frustrate their knavish tricks
> On Thee our hopes we fix:
> God save us all.
> 
> and the supplementary verse is clearly not appropriate for a National Anthem:
> 
> Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
> May by thy mighty aid,
> Victory bring.
> May he sedition hush,
> and like a torrent rush,
> Rebellious Scots to crush,
> God save The King.
> 
> (Although Wade did make some good roads across the hills.)
> 
> The Sex Pistols had a good shot at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I recall correctly this single got to number one even though it was banned. Outrageous censorship.


I love that Sex Pistols song! Recorded in the year I was born, and more accurate now than ever: this year I'm taking my kids out of the UK for good, precisely because there's No Future here for people like us. Hopefully we're going somewhere where not only can we afford a place to live, but where the national anthem can be sung with pride, as it is here by Jean Noté:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Wood said:


> Verse two is particularly odious:
> 
> O Lord our God arise,
> Scatter her enemies,
> And make them fall:
> Confound their politics,
> Frustrate their knavish tricks
> On Thee our hopes we fix:
> God save us all.
> 
> and the supplementary verse is clearly not appropriate for a National Anthem:
> 
> Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
> May by thy mighty aid,
> Victory bring.
> May he sedition hush,
> and like a torrent rush,
> Rebellious Scots to crush,
> God save The King.
> 
> (Although Wade did make some good roads across the hills.)
> 
> The Sex Pistols had a good shot at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I recall correctly this single got to number one even though it was banned. Outrageous censorship.












I absolutely _love_ the Sex Pistols.

I loved them as a kid when my older surfer friends would play them in their car at the beach.

I still love them now.

Pure unhinged fun.


----------



## Figleaf

Marschallin Blair said:


> I absolutely _love_ the Sex Pistols.
> 
> I loved them as a kid when my older surfer friends would play them in their car at the beach.
> 
> I still love them now.
> 
> Pure unhinged fun.


Oh yeah! In the bath I used to spike up my hair and pretend to be Johnny Rotten. What sort of role models do today's toddlers have? Justin Bieber?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Figleaf said:


> Oh yeah! In the bath I used to spike up my hair and pretend to be Johnny Rotten. What sort of role models do today's toddlers have? Justin Bieber?


Yeah, how 'different' are you being when you're being just like everyone else?


----------



## Figleaf

Marschallin Blair said:


> Yeah, how 'different' are you being when you're being just like everyone else?


Indeed. Plenty of us on here are happy to let the freak flag fly. Come to think of it, we are excellent role models!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Figleaf said:


> Indeed. Plenty of us on here are happy to let the freak flag fly. Come to think of it, we are excellent role models!












If you're not part of the_ show_, then you're part of the _boredom_.

_;D_


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Marschallin Blair said:


> Yeah, how 'different' are you being when you're being just like everyone else?


I sense a conspiracy theory coming on here...


----------



## hpowders

Unfortunate random thought:

They hook us with makeup and when we wake up that first makeup-less morning after marriage, those blood-curdling screams can be heard throughout the neighborhood.....but alas, it's too late.


----------



## Guest

Fun idea:

I noticed that, if temporary bans were given to posters who accumulate a certain number of original threads that acquire both 1) more than 3 pages of posts and 2) a consistent "1-star" thread rating...well...it would seem that, after careful study, the pros would outweigh the cons for this rule.


----------



## Centropolis

I keep buying CDs and paying for Spotify Premium. I can listen on Spotify most of the music I am buying CDs of. Am I stupid? Just a random question.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Centropolis said:


> I keep buying CDs and paying for Spotify Premium. I can listen on Spotify most of the music I am buying CDs of. Am I stupid? Just a random question.


I sometimes think the same. But sometimes I see albums I enjoy pulled from the service. And I think of a future without Spotify. 
Although £10 a month seems a lot when you add it all up. I would probably spend heaps more on music without the ability to sate my instant desires or to sample that which may not be to my taste.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

arcaneholocaust said:


> Fun idea:
> 
> I noticed that, if temporary bans were given to posters who accumulate a certain number of original threads that acquire both 1) more than 3 pages of posts and 2) a consistent "1-star" thread rating...well...it would seem that, after careful study, the pros would outweigh the cons for this rule.


A "mark as troll" button would sometimes be quite useful too.


----------



## Dim7

What's the official casual term for a Talk Classical member? Talker? ClassyTalker? Stalker? Metalhead? If there isn't, we need to decide collectively.


----------



## Albert7

What is the best classical music soundtrack for the Super Bowl?


----------



## Albert7

Selling 2500 pop and rock and rap CD's to convert into iTunes and lots more classical music woot!


----------



## Autocrat

There was no "Second Viennese School". There, I said it.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Random question: What does a sound with no harmonics at all sound like?


----------



## violadude

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random question: What does a sound with no harmonics at all sound like?


A sine tone, I believe.


----------



## Blancrocher

I believe I have discovered an interesting corollary of the Law of Conservation of Energy: as the temperature outside continues to plummet, the temperature within TC climbs. 

I'm looking forward to a warm spring after this cold winter!


----------



## Fagotterdammerung

It bothers me that I'm sure some of my favorite music is probably music I never will hear, because the composer wasn't successful in getting his/her works recognized; or they didn't survive; or he/she didn't publish or promote them. Lost notes!


----------



## Guest

MoonlightSonata said:


> Random question: What does a sound with no harmonics at all sound like?


It sounds like Chris Martin.


----------



## Stavrogin

Fagotterdammerung said:


> It bothers me that I'm sure some of my favorite music is probably music I never will hear, because the composer wasn't successful in getting his/her works recognized; or they didn't survive; or he/she didn't publish or promote them. Lost notes!


I concur, and I add a further reason: that music might exist, but I never get to hear it!


----------



## Stavrogin

I was reading this wiki bit about Dvorak's String Sextet:



> Joseph Joachim (famous violinist and leader of a string quartet), together with other artists, performed the work privately on 19 July 1879. The composer was present and was very enchanted by the performance.


and a (possibly ignorant or naif) question came to my mind: did composers get to listen to their "draft" music during the process of writing? Did everyone just rely on their abilty to figure the music in their brains, or did it happen frequently that they had a number of musicians available for trials of even very temporary drafts?

I don't recall having read anything about this in the various biographies I've read so far.


----------



## Stavrogin

Dim7 said:


> What's the official casual term for a Talk Classical member? Talker? ClassyTalker? Stalker? Metalhead? If there isn't, we need to decide collectively.


I propose Classist Talker


----------



## Dim7

Stavrogin said:


> I propose Classist Talker


I think you've cofused this site with AdvocatesForSocialStratification.com


----------



## MoonlightSonata

A random question: Is a good sense of pitch able to be inherited? It seems that tone-deafness can, since the female line of my ancestry are all tone-deaf (maybe I would be too if I were female ).


----------



## violadude

Isn't it crazy how you can own recordings of everything Bach, Mozart and Beethoven ever wrote combined for significantly less money than what, say, a designer tote bag costs?

I'm not sure if I should be happy that classical music is so relatively cheap or sad that it's apparently deemed of less worth than a purse.


----------



## Woodduck

violadude said:


> Isn't it crazy how you can own recordings of everything Bach, Mozart and Beethoven ever wrote combined for significantly less money than what, say, a designer tote bag costs?
> 
> I'm not sure if I should be happy that classical music is so relatively cheap or sad that it's apparently deemed of less worth than a purse.


I have often had just that thought, and it almost brings tears to my eyes, for either of the reasons you cite, but I'm not sure which one.

I also wonder what the composers would say if they knew.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Maybe it's just my headphones or something, but I'm becoming more and more aware of how much harder it is to hear countermelodies, bass lines, and other important things in the background of my orchestral music recordings. For example I usually prefer Bach's keyboard music over his concertos and I wonder if that's because it's just easier for my attention to wander through the layers of chamber music; I crave that richer awareness of what is happening and as I listen to concertos I can strain and hear all these wonderful things that I wish had greater volume.

It's a similar story for me regarding Mozart. I've gone through several recordings of his Clarinet Concerto, listening closely for the first time and mostly to the first movement, and it just seems criminal to me how quiet some of the sections are. I know I always have the option to pay more attention, but far too often I'll find that the driving rhythm of a certain part is just too darn quiet to _really _enter the wall of sound and provide the texture it is supposed to. Things that would clearly be marching with heavy feet in a live performance are practically tiptoeing in some of these things. It's like, why would he have written that part if he didn't want anyone to be able to hear it?!


----------



## DeepR

This is so cool! If there are other players around...

http://labs.dinahmoe.com/plink/


----------



## Figleaf

violadude said:


> Isn't it crazy how you can own recordings of everything Bach, Mozart and Beethoven ever wrote combined for significantly less money than what, say, a designer tote bag costs?
> 
> I'm not sure if I should be happy that classical music is so relatively cheap or sad that it's apparently deemed of less worth than a purse.


There are individual recorded performances of Mozart which are worth more to me than all the purses in the world. But when it comes to those breeze block sized complete editions made up of instrumental music and indifferent performances of operas, I choose the handbag. Sorry guys


----------



## Dim7

MoonlightSonata said:


> A random question: Is a good sense of pitch able to be inherited? It seems that tone-deafness can, since the female line of my ancestry are all tone-deaf (maybe I would be too if I were female ).


I think the evidence for the claim that tone-deafness can be inherited is compelling but not QUITE enough. We need exactly ONE more tone-deaf female relative of yours to finally conclude that the tone-deafness of the female line of your ancestry is not just a coincidence. That's why I have arranged a sex reassignment surgery for you; if it will turn you tone-deaf we can be sure that tone-deafness is inheritable. Don't worry, I'll cover the costs.


----------



## ahammel

MoonlightSonata said:


> A random question: Is a good sense of pitch able to be inherited? It seems that tone-deafness can, since the female line of my ancestry are all tone-deaf (maybe I would be too if I were female ).


Wikipedia mentions a family aggregation study which suggests that congenital amusia (aka tone deafness) is indeed hereditary. Interestingly, it is less common than amusia caused by brain damage.

Even more interestingly: evolutionary biologists seem to be particularly susceptible. Wiki lists Charles Darwin*, J.****** Haldane, and Bill Hamilton as sufferers.

*Charlie was allegedly so tone deaf that his wife (who was very musical) had to elbow him to get him to stand up when _God Save the Queen_ Was played.


----------



## ahammel

ahammel said:


> J.****** Haldane


Oh lol. That is to say: John Burdon Sanderson Haldane. The autocensor doesn't like his initials.


----------



## Dim7

ahammel said:


> Wikipedia mentions a family aggregation study which suggests that congenital amusia (aka tone deafness) is indeed hereditary. Interestingly, it is less common than amusia caused by brain damage.
> 
> Even more interestingly: evolutionary biologists seem to be particularly susceptible. Wiki lists Charles Darwin*, J.****** Haldane, and Bill Hamilton as sufferers.


Makes sense. I find evolutionary biology mildly interesting and while I'm far from tone-deaf, my ear is quite poor and I struggle with transcribing music etc. I wonder if unusually large percentage of creationists have a perfect pitch.


----------



## Weston

I just learned that the first electronic musical instrument was created in 1759! 

This should put the "synthesizers are not real instruments" camp to rest for good.


----------



## PeteW

Weston said:


> I just learned that the first electronic musical instrument was created in 1759!
> 
> This should put the "synthesizers are not real instruments" camp to rest for good.


Interesting! What was the instrument?


----------



## Weston

It was called an electric harpsichord, but sounded more like an organ with static electricity vibrating pitched bells. Who knew there could be such a thing that far back?


----------



## musicrom

I have no idea how "prestigious" the Grammys are for classical music, or if anyone even cares, but _Become Ocean_, by John Luther Adams, won the Best Contemporary Classical Composition award. Other winners:

*Best Orchestral Performance
*Adams, John: City Noir, David Robertson (conductor), (St. Louis Symphony)

*Best Opera Recording
*Charpentier: La descente d'Orphée aux enfers, Paul O'Dette & Stephen Stubbs, conductors; Aaron Sheehan; Renate Wolter-Seevers, producer (Boston Early Music Festival Chamber Ensemble; Boston Early Music Festival Vocal Ensemble)

*Best Choral Performance
*The Sacred Spirit Of Russia, Craig Hella Johnson, conductor (Conspirare)

*Best Chamber Music/Small Ensemble Performance
*In 27 Pieces - The Hilary Hahn Encores, Hilary Hahn & Cory Smythe

*Best Classical Instrumental Solo
*Play, Jason Vieaux

*Best Classical Solo Vocal Album
*Douce France, Anne Sofie Von Otter; Bengt Forsberg, accompanist (Carl Bagge, Margareta Bengston, Mats Bergström, Per Ekdahl, Bengan Janson, Olle Linder & Antoine Tamestit)

*Best Classical Compendium
*Partch: Plectra & Percussion Dances, Partch; John Schneider, producer


----------



## KenOC

musicrom said:


> ...but _Become Ocean_, by John Adams, won the Best Contemporary Classical Composition award.


Just to avoid confusion, that's John Luther Adams, not the other one. A dreary tiresome piece IMO...


----------



## musicrom

KenOC said:


> Just to avoid confusion, that's John Luther Adams, not the other one. A dreary tiresome piece IMO...


Yeah, sorry, I accidentally mixed it up and just realized. Thanks.


----------



## Mahlerian

KenOC said:


> Just to avoid confusion, that's John Luther Adams, not the other one. A dreary tiresome piece IMO...


Well, it's selling very well (#21 on Amazon.com's classical bestseller chart, #27 on the iTunes classical chart), and as you've said on countless occasions, that's the only measurement of quality that really matters.


----------



## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> Well, it's selling very well, and as you've said on countless occasions, that's the only measurement of quality that really matters.


I don't believe I've ever said that. Why do you persist in insulting me?


----------



## Guest

"Random" thought: Sometimes I really long to respond to the implicit...explicitly.


----------



## Mahlerian

KenOC said:


> I don't believe I've ever said that. Why do you persist in insulting me?


Okay, explain what you meant here, then:



KenOC said:


> I noticed on another thread somebody suggesting that John Williams wrote greater music than (say) Barber, Ives, Adams, etc. Why? Because it is more popular.
> 
> If it _is _more popular (and I think it is) that suggests that it is certainly "greater" than the music we mostly talk about around here in the views of a lot of people, who possibly wouldn't even recognize the other names.





KenOC said:


> The point is, it doesn't matter whether they're "right" or "wrong". I may think it's wrong for a shark to bite me. But if the shark's big enough, it's opinion will prevail.





KenOC said:


> I repeat that I believe the views of the broader listening public are more important than yours, or mine, or anybody else's, in determining the future of styles of music and individual works. "Right" or "wrong"!


Unless, of course, you think that it's selling well despite _not_ being popular?


----------



## Antiquarian

Completely Random Thought : I was just over at GoodReads, where I am a member (books being another interest of mine, along with art), and have come to the conclusion that rabid partisans of books are matched by their classical music loving brethren in their chauvinism. I don't mean to offend anyone by this observation, it just makes me wonder how many TalkClsssical members are members of GoodReads.


----------



## KenOC

All three statements you quote are mine. It's clear that popularity equals entering the repertoire and long-term survival. I have never said that successful music in those terms is "better" in any objective sense, or even per my own tastes. I certainly don't like everything in the repertoire or that is currently popular. And I like a good deal of music that is not popular and never will be.

And certainly I never said nor implied that popularity is "the only measurement of quality that really matters." I really wonder why you misunderstand this. Please read again the quote snippets you posted. More carefully this time, perhaps.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Can people here stop cat fighting each other for a while and do something more productive like recommending recordings of Renaissance, obscure Baroque and living composers, reviewing, explaining, etc?


----------



## GhenghisKhan

Apparently the theme song for circus clowns was originally meant as a military march reminiscent of gladiators and ancient Rome by the composer. 

WTF. lol. How did that go from A to B.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

GhenghisKhan said:


> Apparently the theme song for circus clowns was originally meant as a military march reminiscent of gladiators and ancient Rome by the composer.
> 
> WTF. lol. How did that go from A to B.


Is this Fucik by any chance?


----------



## GhenghisKhan

yup .


----------



## Albert7

Toshio Hosokawa = awesomeness.


----------



## quack

Random discovery to me today: Edward Elgar worked as a composer in a lunatic asylum in his youth


----------



## MoonlightSonata

quack said:


> Random discovery to me today: Edward Elgar worked as a composer in a lunatic asylum in his youth


What a coincidence - I learnt the very same thing today!


----------



## Piwikiwi

The more I learned about the music theory aspect about baroque, the more I respect Vivaldi.


----------



## Piwikiwi

Antiquarian said:


> Completely Random Thought : I was just over at GoodReads, where I am a member (books being another interest of mine, along with art), and have come to the conclusion that rabid partisans of books are matched by their classical music loving brethren in their chauvinism. I don't mean to offend anyone by this observation, it just makes me wonder how many TalkClsssical members are members of GoodReads.


I am, I can send you my profile if you want.


----------



## bharbeke

One of Brahms's Sixteen Waltzes is included on the Baby Einstein lullaby videos. Usually, my recognition goes the other direction.


----------



## ahammel

Piwikiwi said:


> I am, I can send you my profile if you want.


Ditto.........................


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Every time I see video of a live symphony orchestra it looks so much smaller than what I imagine as I listen to the music, no matter what era it's from but especially with something like a Mahler symphony; I don't usually picture musicians as I listen to music, but when I do I have to create these ridiculous visions of a thousand people if I am to match the vastness of what the piece makes me feel. Even the stages for Haydn symphonies look so much tinier than what I expected!


----------



## 20centrfuge

I spent an hour yesterday listening to the first minute of as many recordings as I could find of de Falla's "Danza del Molinero" (Miller's Dance) from the 3 cornered hat. It was amazing the different interpretations of this Spanish cadenza. I thought it was hilarious how un-Spanish some of the German orchestras were. Hats off to Dutoit with Montreal, and Giulini with the Spanish National Orchestra.

I had always associated this dance with fiery-ness and tons of energy and so was surprised by how measured and formal the approach seemed from all the Spanish orchestras. I'm not saying I was right about my previous ideas. Anyhoo.

It was also interesting to hear the guitar players do their renditions.


----------



## Weston

Antiquarian said:


> Completely Random Thought : I was just over at GoodReads, where I am a member (books being another interest of mine, along with art), and have come to the conclusion that rabid partisans of books are matched by their classical music loving brethren in their chauvinism. I don't mean to offend anyone by this observation, it just makes me wonder how many TalkClsssical members are members of GoodReads.


I am at GoodReads. It's a fantastic resource. I'm not sure what is meant by chauvinism as it applies to the arts.


----------



## Albert7

Today a stuffy nose while listening to Janet Baker.


----------



## hpowders

After listening to Van Cliburn's incomparable performance of the Prokofiev Third Piano Concerto, I could not help thinking that one of the great musical crimes of the 20th century was Van Cliburn limiting his repertoire, refusing to grow and challenge himself and then to top it off, retiring prematurely from concertizing at all.

This was one of the greatest pianists of the twentieth century.

A mystery and a real shame.


----------



## bharbeke

I can understand why he would make those choices. By limiting his repertoire and career length, he could be in the top tier of what he did. There are plenty of musicians who just don't "get" certain composers or put in mediocre efforts as they get old.


----------



## Albert7

One full month of Morton Feldman. Excited and fearful at the same time.


----------



## Antiquarian

Piwikiwi said:


> I am, I can send you my profile if you want.


Thanks! At the moment I am a rather new member at GoodReads, and am in the laborious process of scanning in all the isbn codes for my books. This may take me several weeks. My user name there is... wait for it... Antiquarian.


----------



## Antiquarian

Weston said:


> I am at GoodReads. It's a fantastic resource. I'm not sure what is meant by chauvinism as it applies to the arts.


Perhaps I am using this word malapropos . According to the OED, Chauvinism is "excessive or prejudiced loyalty to one's cause or group or sex". In this case it was group loyalty I was alluding to, not a narrower sense, which could be bigotry. I have to admit that I am a classical chauvinistic music pig.&#55357;&#56840;


----------



## Weston

^I suspected that's what it meant from the context, but wasn't certain. I think you are using the term more correctly than most of the people I know who use it then.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Even though I know how important they are, I can't help laughing at the more extravagant gestures of some conductors.


----------



## Becca

I wish I can remember who said this to one of his conducting students ... "Go out there and don't disturb the orchestra."


----------



## Dim7

The term "experimental music" sounds inherently pejorative to me. It's like the artist himself, if he calls his music such, is unsure about whether his music really "works" because he thinks it just as an "experiment."


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Not technically musical, but music-related in a sense: If "tutti" means all, does "tutti frutti" mean "all fruits"?


----------



## Albert7

I am still impressed that classical music labels are stuffing 80 minutes worth of music on one CD .


----------



## Stavrogin

MoonlightSonata said:


> Not technically musical, but music-related in a sense: If "tutti" means all, does "tutti frutti" mean "all fruits"?


Yes, it does.

(some more characters)


----------



## Weston

The sound of a muted trumpet or other brass instrument is very distinctive. I don't notice the effect in music earlier than the late 19th century, and seldom much earlier than the mid-20th. I got to wondering when this mute effect was discovered. Is it a 19th century device or did it just come into fashion then? Wikipedia doesn't have much history on the subject I can find.

Similarly now that I am listening to more modern music, I've noticed a weird nasal timbre in some string quartets, especially Bartok's and Schoenberg's. It's hard to describe, sounding a bit like a meow slowed down and lowered a couple octaves -- the cat coming back for revenge. Is this also a kind of mute I've seen placed on the bridge, or is it just a different bowing technique?


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> Similarly now that I am listening to more modern music, I've noticed a weird nasal timbre in some string quartets, especially Bartok's and Schoenberg's. It's hard to describe, sounding a bit like a meow slowed down and lowered a couple octaves -- the cat coming back for revenge. Is this also a kind of mute I've seen placed on the bridge, or is it just a different bowing technique?


I think what you're describing is "sul ponticello", playing on the bridge, which produces a thin, glassy timbre. Placing a mute on the strings doesn't change the timbre nearly as much.


----------



## MagneticGhost

MoonlightSonata said:


> Not technically musical, but music-related in a sense: If "tutti" means all, does "tutti frutti" mean "all fruits"?


Just in case this is a serious question. The answer of course is Yes


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Why would a composer write a piece for, say, strings in a key with lots of flats, if the piece would be just as effective (and playable) a semitone higher or lower? 
It seems a bit strange to write a Symphony for Strings in D flat major instead of D major.
(I'm not complaining though. I do rather like the challenge.)


----------



## MoonlightSonata

MagneticGhost said:


> Just in case this is a serious question. The answer of course is Yes


It was indeed serious (well, perhaps semi-serious). I wasn't sure if it was just an Anglophone coming up with a rhyme that sounds Italian.


----------



## MagneticGhost

MoonlightSonata said:


> Why would a composer write a piece for, say, strings in a key with lots of flats, if the piece would be just as effective (and playable) a semitone higher or lower?
> It seems a bit strange to write a Symphony for Strings in D flat major instead of D major.
> (I'm not complaining though. I do rather like the challenge.)


Apparently higher mortals have this ability to hear the difference in keys. Some even see a certain colour dependant on the key. There's a special word for that that I haven't got time to google at present. 
Let's face it - most pieces could be transposed to C Major or A Minor. Would we notice the difference? I'd like to think I could but the fact that I can't tell the key of a piece by listening - despite a long time of listening and studying music - means perhaps not. You, my friend, have time on your side. Let me know how you get on.


----------



## MagneticGhost

MoonlightSonata said:


> It was indeed serious (well, perhaps semi-serious). I wasn't sure if it was just an Anglophone coming up with a rhyme that sounds Italian.


I may be completely incorrect - but as Italians are the masters of Ice Cream making - I imagine the original name was from the ice cream flavour of the same name.
I'm off to google *that* one now

Well!! Some people did think that but evidence has come to light of a bubble gum tutti frutti from 1888 - so no-one knows.


----------



## Dim7

MagneticGhost said:


> Apparently higher mortals have this ability to hear the difference in keys. Some even see a certain colour dependant on the key. There's a special word for that that I haven't got time to google at present.
> Let's face it - most pieces could be transposed to C Major or A Minor. Would we notice the difference? I'd like to think I could but the fact that I can't tell the key of a piece by listening - despite a long time of listening and studying music - means perhaps not. You, my friend, have time on your side. Let me know how you get on.


We probably would because it's another thing to hear the key of a piece you've never heard before and to hear that the piece you know already is in the "wrong" key.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

MagneticGhost said:


> Apparently higher mortals have this ability to hear the difference in keys. Some even see a certain colour dependant on the key. There's a special word for that that I haven't got time to google at present.
> Let's face it - most pieces could be transposed to C Major or A Minor. Would we notice the difference? I'd like to think I could but the fact that I can't tell the key of a piece by listening - despite a long time of listening and studying music - means perhaps not. You, my friend, have time on your side. Let me know how you get on.


Perhaps you are thinking of synaesthesia. I must confess I didn't think of that, despite being a synaesthete myself (though not the kind with perfect pitch - mine is based on timbre).
Actually, that's another interesting thought - what colour would that sort of synaesthete see while listening to atonal music?


----------



## Figleaf

MagneticGhost said:


> I may be completely incorrect - but as Italians are the masters of Ice Cream making - I imagine the original name was from the ice cream flavour of the same name.
> I'm off to google *that* one now
> 
> Well!! Some people did think that but evidence has come to light of a bubble gum tutti frutti from 1888 - so no-one knows.


Even I don't remember as far back as 1888, but poor Moonlight is too young even to remember Gino Ginelli Tutti Frutti, the faux-Italian childrens' party favourite ice cream of the 1980s. This contained not only _all fruits_ but some extra ones unknown to nature. 

Since this is in the Classical Music Discussion section, I'll resist the impulse to post a Youtube link to the Little Richard song, but I've got it stuck in my head now anyway. Thanks for nothing, Moonlight Sonata!


----------



## MagneticGhost

***-bop-a-loo-mop alop-bom-bom
Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
Awop-bop-a-loo-mop alop bom bom


What's it all about though. Certainly not Ice Cream!!


----------



## hpowders

Whenever I listen to HIP Bach, Mozart and Haydn adjusting to the lower than modern key always jolts me!


----------



## Mahlerian

MoonlightSonata said:


> Perhaps you are thinking of synaesthesia. I must confess I didn't think of that, despite being a synaesthete myself (though not the kind with perfect pitch - mine is based on timbre).
> Actually, that's another interesting thought - what colour would that sort of synaesthete see while listening to atonal music?


Messiaen at one point said he didn't hear tonal or atonal, just music with color (early Stravinsky, Mussorgsky, Wagner, Debussy) and music without it (Bruckner, Schoenberg, later Stravinsky; he also disliked Jazz-inflected classical works). At another point he said he heard serial and atonal music as consistently gray. His own music was to him like a kaleidoscope of shifting colors and color-combinations, according to his reports.

That said, Messiaen still ended up teaching and supporting the foremost Darmstadt avant-garde composers, and he regarded Boulez with special affection, possibly seeing in his music a more colorful version of Webern.

That said...there's really no such thing as atonality.

Edit: Oh, and Wassily Kandinsky was a synesthete. After attending a performance of Schoenberg's Op. 11, he quickly painted this:


----------



## dgee

Weston said:


> The sound of a muted trumpet or other brass instrument is very distinctive. I don't notice the effect in music earlier than the late 19th century, and seldom much earlier than the mid-20th. I got to wondering when this mute effect was discovered. Is it a 19th century device or did it just come into fashion then? Wikipedia doesn't have much history on the subject I can find.


Idomineo has muted brass in it. Some notable early horn muting I can think of is in Beethoven - Violin Concerto slow mvmt, finale of Symphony 6. I'm sure there are earlier instances but it really didn't take off until Wagner


----------



## Figleaf

Synaesthesia: have any of you inherited it from your parents? My ex partner, a saxophonist, told me once that he 'thinks in a palette of greens and blues' or some such, though I didn't press him on the subject for fear of being mocked for my ignorance (you know what these jazz buffs are like). When I was little, certain words and letters were associated with certain colours and visual imagery not directly related to the meaning of the words, though that stopped when I was maybe five or so. I wonder if our daughter would have synaesthesia? She is six, with no signs of her dad's family's musical talent. I guess we'll just have to wait and see!


----------



## dgee

Figleaf said:


> When I was little, certain words and letters were associated with certain colours and visual imagery not directly related to the meaning of the words, though that stopped when I was maybe five or so.


Nabokov relates a similar phenomenon in his memoir Speak, Memory - sounds charming!

http://mentalfloss.com/article/49442/vladimir-nabokov-talks-synesthesia


----------



## hpowders

A few hours ago I received the Prokofiev Concerto No. 3 and the Bartok Concerto No. 2 for piano with Lang Lang, Berlin Phil/Rattle.

I purchased this based on an enthusiastic professional review....yet I can't possibly come up with a soloist, orchestra and conductor more unsuitable for this music.

I am literally afraid to play the CD.

Pray for me as I have Cliburn, Graffman, Hendl, Szell, Chicago and Cleveland embedded firmly and memorably in my brain.


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> A few hours ago I received the Prokofiev Concerto No. 3 and the Bartok Concerto No. 2 for piano with Lang Lang, Berlin Phil/Rattle.
> 
> I purchased this based on an enthusiastic professional review....yet I can't possibly come up with a soloist, orchestra and conductor more unsuitable for this music.
> 
> I am literally afraid to play the CD.
> 
> Pray for me as I have Cliburn, Graffman, Hendl, Szell, Chicago and Cleveland embedded firmly and memorably in my brain.


Our thoughts are with you, be brave and take the plunge.


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> Our thoughts are with you, be brave and take the plunge.


I will be alone tonight. I'll do it then. Of course after I play it, I will mini-review it (keeping bias in check) as fairly as I can on Current Listening.

Thank you for your support!


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

hpowders said:


> A few hours ago I received the Prokofiev Concerto No. 3 and the Bartok Concerto No. 2 for piano with Lang Lang, Berlin Phil/Rattle.
> 
> I purchased this based on an enthusiastic professional review....yet I can't possibly come up with a soloist, orchestra and conductor more unsuitable for this music.
> 
> I am literally afraid to play the CD.
> 
> Pray for me as I have Cliburn, Graffman, Hendl, Szell, Chicago and Cleveland embedded firmly and memorably in my brain.


Wow!  You are so brave (if not crazy).


----------



## senza sordino

Weston said:


> The sound of a muted trumpet or other brass instrument is very distinctive. I don't notice the effect in music earlier than the late 19th century, and seldom much earlier than the mid-20th. I got to wondering when this mute effect was discovered. Is it a 19th century device or did it just come into fashion then? Wikipedia doesn't have much history on the subject I can find.
> 
> Similarly now that I am listening to more modern music, I've noticed a weird nasal timbre in some string quartets, especially Bartok's and Schoenberg's. It's hard to describe, sounding a bit like a meow slowed down and lowered a couple octaves -- the cat coming back for revenge. Is this also a kind of mute I've seen placed on the bridge, or is it just a different bowing technique?


As Mahlerian said, it's sul ponticello, bowed at the bridge. Nigel Kennedy also does this during his performance of Vivaldi's Winter to get that cold icy feel. It's really effective.

A mute on the violin mostly makes the sound softer, but it actually eliminates some of the highest overtones. The violin mute is a soft piece of rubber that slides onto the bridge. Con sordino.

You'll see most players with this black soft rubber piece off the bridge when not in use, but still on the strings the other side of the bridge, near the tail piece. 
Take off the mute, senza sordino.


----------



## KenOC

The first instance of sul ponticello playing I know of is near the end of the scherzo in Beethoven's C-sharp minor quartet, Op. 131 (1825). All four instruments play that way, gradually switching back to regular playing for the final chords. Sounds weird and scratchy.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I think I heard _sul ponticello_ in Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_ - the winter concerto. I might be wrong though.


----------



## KenOC

MoonlightSonata said:


> I think I heard _sul ponticello_ in Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_ - the winter concerto. I might be wrong though.


Could well be! Maybe somebody can add more.


----------



## senza sordino

Winter,

I just looked at my Peters' Score. (I've not played it, I plan to learn it later this year.) There is no sul ponticello marking anywhere. But the score marking does say to tremble in the cold. In the January 2015 Strad magazine, Daniel Hope has an article about how to play Winter. He suggests sul ponticello for the first section. Trills played at the bridge might sound like icy trembling cold.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

There seem to be very few people on TC who admit to being Australian

(The thread title does say 'random thoughts' .... though to label that statement as a thought might be stretching a point)


----------



## SimonNZ

Headphone Hermit said:


> There seem to be very few people on TC who admit to being Australian


I'm pretty sure CoAG and Sid James fessed up to that.

edit: and Conor!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Philip Pickett (HIP pioneer) jailed for 11 years for rape

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-31550251

I'm completely shocked


----------



## hpowders

hpowders said:


> A few hours ago I received the Prokofiev Concerto No. 3 and the Bartok Concerto No. 2 for piano with Lang Lang, Berlin Phil/Rattle.
> 
> I purchased this based on an enthusiastic professional review....yet I can't possibly come up with a soloist, orchestra and conductor more unsuitable for this music.
> 
> I am literally afraid to play the CD.
> 
> Pray for me as I have Cliburn, Graffman, Hendl, Szell, Chicago and Cleveland embedded firmly and memorably in my brain.


Lang Lang doesn't displace Cliburn as my fave, but he delivers a fine performance. The Prokofiev is a better performance than the Bartok-Lang Lang speaks Hungarian with a "foreign accent".

My reservations concerning Rattle were confirmed: excessive vibrato in the violins, principal oboe and bassoon.
Rattle speaks Prokofiev with a "foreign accent".


----------



## MoonlightSonata

When you're the only viola in an orchestra, every melody is a solo


----------



## Headphone Hermit

SimonNZ said:


> I'm pretty sure CoAG and Sid James fessed up to that.
> 
> edit: and Conor!


*Three* aren't many (... well, I know that depends on one's viewpoint) - there's more than that from Lancashire, for instance


----------



## Dim7

I think there should be two words for melody:

1) One in the literal sense of a "changing identifiable pitch"
2) One in the more vague sense of a "tune"


----------



## Stavrogin

MagneticGhost said:


> ***-bop-a-loo-mop alop-bom-bom
> Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
> Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
> Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
> Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
> Tutti Frutti, aw rutti
> Awop-bop-a-loo-mop alop bom bom
> 
> What's it all about though. Certainly not Ice Cream!!


I believe, and somehow hope, that the lyrics actually go "tutti frutti, aw rooty", because "rutti" means "burps" in Italian.


----------



## Weston

Looking up the song on Wikipedia is -- interesting.


----------



## hpowders

The combination of Charles Munch and the Boston Symphony was so terrific in the French repertoire, ESPECIALLY in the music of Berlioz. What a shame they never did a recorded concert version of Les Troyens.
Now, THAT could have been an incredible experience!!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

When the player has been breathing helium, wind instruments sound higher.
I sense an avant-garde work coming here :devil:


----------



## hpowders

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Wow!  You are so brave (if not crazy).


I played it. It was fine!! Ha! Ha!


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

hpowders said:


> I played it. It was fine!! Ha! Ha!


I'm glad you're okay.


----------



## hpowders

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I'm glad you're okay.


Thanks. Ha! Ha! The only problem is the recorded sound. The dynamic range is too extreme. If you want to really hear the softer passages, the louder ones will blast you out of your chair!


----------



## Figleaf

MoonlightSonata said:


> When the player has been breathing helium, wind instruments sound higher.
> I sense an avant-garde work coming here :devil:


...or a HIP performance of a baroque work composed for castrati.  It would be less morally questionable than some of the alternatives!


----------



## Guest

Question for Mahlerian or whoever else might be informed by worldly fashions...

So I've been educated in the last year or so on how Chinese and Korean names work opposite to our Westerner expectations. (Last name = given name)

Does anyone know if this extends to other Asian countries? In particular, I'm wondering about Southeast Asia, or perhaps various Middle-Eastern countries? Chinary Ung, for instance?


----------



## KenOC

Nathan, lots of people from Asian countries put surnames last when using English, so it's not easy to tell! Generally, Chinese and Korean surnames have a single syllable, if that helps. So Chinary Ung is probably in the Western order. My guess is that Ung is the Cantonese Ng or Eng, the same character as the Mandarin Wu (my wife's family name in fact).

Checked. Chinary Ung is Cambodian, and Ung is indeed the surname. I have no idea what the order of the names is in Cambodia!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

In one of his works, Fucik wrote the dynamic _ffffffff_. At the end, he then went even further, to _ffffffffffffffffffffffff_.
Are all of those 24 _f_s really necessary? Would one, two, five or even maybe ten be missed?


----------



## Chronochromie

MoonlightSonata said:


> In one of his works, Fucik wrote the dynamic _ffffffff_. At the end, he then went even further, to _ffffffffffffffffffffffff_.
> Are all of those 24 _f_s really necessary? Would one, two, five or even maybe ten be missed?


He wanted to be in the Guinness World Records book. Clearly a man ahead of his time.


----------



## MagneticGhost

It took me a few months short of 2 years to discover the 3 second 'Like' rule. Or did it come in with the board changes.
It's very artificial. In real life I often like several things at the same time. Imagine having to wait 3 seconds between each of them.


----------



## Blancrocher

MagneticGhost said:


> It took me a few months short of 2 years to discover the 3 second 'Like' rule. Or did it come in with the board changes.
> It's very artificial. In real life I often like several things at the same time. Imagine having to wait 3 seconds between each of them.


If feel your pain--it's tripled the amount of time it takes me to go through "Current Listening."


----------



## Posie

Is Ravel's Bolero supposed to sound more like a marching tune than a dance?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

marinasabina said:


> Is Ravel's Bolero supposed to sound more like a marching tune than a dance?


"The March of the Three-Legged Monsters"


----------



## Albert7

I just discovered that I listen to more variety of classical music now at 38 than I ever did at 24.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

MoonlightSonata said:


> In one of his works, Fucik wrote the dynamic _ffffffff_. At the end, he then went even further, to _ffffffffffffffffffffffff_.
> Are all of those 24 _f_s really necessary? Would one, two, five or even maybe ten be missed?


The only way something like that would make any sense is if a composer had (not cleverly) decided to use only fs to indicate dynamics, like using only sharps for accidentals. Or if the composer is either Varese or Messiaen.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> In one of his works, Fucik wrote the dynamic _ffffffff_. At the end, he then went even further, to _ffffffffffffffffffffffff_.
> Are all of those 24 _f_s really necessary? Would one, two, five or even maybe ten be missed?


I can't resist the pun because maybe he really wanted to say "fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff u?"  LOL

Sorry totally tasteless joke here.

I haven't the slightest idea of what the maximum number of f's would be physically possible. I think that four f's is typically good?


----------



## musicrom

MoonlightSonata said:


> In one of his works, Fucik wrote the dynamic _ffffffff_. At the end, he then went even further, to _ffffffffffffffffffffffff_.
> Are all of those 24 _f_s really necessary? Would one, two, five or even maybe ten be missed?


Well, extrapolating from this chart, 24 _f_'s would be 310 dB, which according to this site is how loud the 1883 volcanic eruption of Krakatoa was. Maybe that's what Fucik was going for?


----------



## science

"Our torments also may in length of time become our elements." 

Totally out of context and distorting the meaning, but I thought it was funny to apply this quote to people who find themselves liking music they'd hated before!


----------



## Albert7

musicrom said:


> Well, extrapolating from this chart, 24 _f_'s would be 310 dB, which according to this site is how loud the 1883 volcanic eruption of Krakatoa was. Maybe that's what Fucik was going for?


In that case, I would say "What the Fucik was he thinking?" LOL


----------



## Posie

I just *watched* 4'33" to *see* what the fuss is about.



Is it just me, or.....?


----------



## Albert7

Tonight I MUST have beer with my classical music after I hang out with my cute Izzy.


----------



## Dim7

Either this forum is acting weird, or the mods are really quick at censoring threads and have some very strange ideas about what ought to be censored...


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Only humans could organise sounds, and then be able to argue about the way they are organised.


----------



## Dim7

MoonlightSonata said:


> Only humans could organise sounds, and then be able to argue about the way they are organised.


I'm sure there's a way to quibble that this isn't true but but I'm not sure how to do that for now...


----------



## omega

Vivaldi: the first minimalist composer?





However, I love this movement...


----------



## Chris

I found a Youtube recording of the Brahms lullaby that had the title Ninna Nanna. This turned out to be Italian for Lullaby. That's such a nice word, or words.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I started writing a piece in 5/4 yesterday, and I found it rather confusing, but after a while, it just seemed natural. Why is it that it seems so unnatural? How is it that one "acclimatises"?


----------



## Dave Whitmore

I wanted to ask this question but wasn't sure it was worthy of a whole thread so I thought I'd post it here.

If you've been up and about for several hours and you haven't had the chance to listen to any CM yet, do you start getting pieces of classical music just popping in your head as if your brain is giving you a hint, saying "feed me"? I just keep getting strands of music in my head. At the moment I keep getting a piece of Beethoven's Violin Concerto in my head so I guess I'm going to listen to that in a little while. That's another thing, when I get a piece of music in my head I always want to listen to that piece of music. It almost becomes a compulsion.


----------



## Dim7

MoonlightSonata said:


> I started writing a piece in 5/4 yesterday, and I found it rather confusing, but after a while, it just seemed natural. Why is it that it seems so unnatural? How is it that one "acclimatises"?


I don't find necessarily playing in weird time signatures unnatural, but improvising in them I find very difficult.

Random thoughts: If there were recordings of non-classical singers singing Wagner's operas it would be of course horrible heresy but I'd be very interested. Esp. if they were some of my favorite power metal vocalists


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Dave Whitmore said:


> I wanted to ask this question but wasn't sure it was worthy of a whole thread so I thought I'd post it here.
> 
> If you've been up and about for several hours and you haven't had the chance to listen to any CM yet, do you start getting pieces of classical music just popping in your head as if your brain is giving you a hint, saying "feed me"? I just keep getting strands of music in my head. At the moment I keep getting a piece of Beethoven's Violin Concerto in my head so I guess I'm going to listen to that in a little while. That's another thing, when I get a piece of music in my head I always want to listen to that piece of music. It almost becomes a compulsion.


Does this mean there are times when music *isn't* going round in your head?

I have the same thing - a snippet from Winterreisse, the Beethoven violin concerto, the Harold theme from Berlioz, Callas in Anna Bolena etc etc etc


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I would be very interested to see pieces written that incorporated more unusual string instruments (e.g. tenor viola in string quartet, octobass in orchestra). I don't see why the tenor viola in particular isn't used more.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

^^^ yeah, exactly - when was the last time you heard a piece for hurdy-gurdy and orchestra?


----------



## Albert7

I am really digging video game music. Very lyrical at times. Thanks to dedalus .


----------



## Sloe

albertfallickwang said:


> I am really digging video game music. Very lyrical at times. Thanks to dedalus .


I think video game music only works if it is attached to a video game.


----------



## Dim7

Sloe said:


> I think video game music only works if it is attached to a video game.


Often yes but I think there are exceptions.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

albertfallickwang said:


> I am really digging video game music. Very lyrical at times. Thanks to dedalus .


A few of my friends adore video game music. Some of it is quite good, a lot is bland.


----------



## Dim7

When you think about it the idea of video game and filmscore music is kinda weird. There's this sound that doesn't belong to the game's/movie's world (since the characters in the world can't hear it) "tacked" on it.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> A few of my friends adore video game music. Some of it is quite good, a lot is bland.


Zelda is good; video game music for Skyrim and Morrowwind is awesome too.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

albertfallickwang said:


> Zelda is good; video game music for Skyrim and Morrowwind is awesome too.


Some of the music from "Final Fantasy" was quite interesting too; I believe it is one of the more popular video game scores.


----------



## Morimur

Dim7 said:


> When you think about it the idea of video game and filmscore music is kinda weird. There's this sound that doesn't belong to the game's/movie's world (since the characters in the world can't hear it) "tacked" on it.


There are few Hollywood films I like, and _No Country for Old Men_ is one of them. Among the many reasons I am fond of it is because there is no score/soundtrack. Film is a primarily visual medium and shouldn't rely on music for enhancement.


----------



## Rhombic

Today I went to a local cinema to watch Chaplin's _The Gold Rush_, with live piano & cello accompaniment (which, by the way, was extremely interesting). There was a guy in the audience who looked exactly like Beethoven and whose nervousness and facial gesticulations were very similar to those that have been written about Beethoven.


----------



## Albert7

Morimur said:


> There are few Hollywood films I like, and _No Country for Old Men_ is one of them. One of the many reasons I am fond of it is because there is no score/soundtrack. Film is a primarily visual medium and shouldn't rely on music for enhancement.


One reason why Michael Haneke movies are so effective. Music is used sparingly.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Rhombic said:


> Today I went to a local cinema to watch Chaplin's _The Gold Rush_, with live piano & cello accompaniment (which, by the way, was extremely interesting). There was a guy in the audience who looked exactly like Beethoven and whose nervousness and facial gesticulations were very similar to those that have been written about Beethoven.


I wonder what he thought of the piano and cello!


----------



## hpowders

Is there any other once popular composer more "out" these days than George Gershwin?

One hardly ever hears his music played live anymore.


----------



## Dim7

MoonlightSonata said:


> Some of the music from "Final Fantasy" was quite interesting too; I believe it is one of the more popular video game scores.


It kinda creeps me out that you didn't even exist when I played Final Fantasy VII for the first time. I feel so old...


----------



## senza sordino

hpowders said:


> Is there any other once popular composer more "out" these days than George Gershwin?
> 
> One hardly ever hears his music played live anymore.


Last year my local professional orchestra played Concerto in F, and earlier this season they played An American in Paris.


----------



## hpowders

senza sordino said:


> Last year my local professional orchestra played Concerto in F, and earlier this season they played An American in Paris.


So there's more Gershwin going on in Canada than in the US! Heh! Heh!


----------



## senza sordino

hpowders said:


> So there's more Gershwin going on in Canada than in the US! Heh! Heh!


Not having any of own own composers,


----------



## Guest

Morimur said:


> There are few Hollywood films I like, and _No Country for Old Men_ is one of them. Among the many reasons I am fond of it is because there is no score/soundtrack. Film is a primarily visual medium and shouldn't rely on music for enhancement.


And because it's well-adapted from Cormac McCarthy, right?


----------



## Guest

Today I listened to Ben Johnston for the very first time. And wound up listening to probably 2.5 hours of his stuff today (the piano disc and quartets 1-5). Wonderful


----------



## Guest

MoonlightSonata said:


> I would be very interested to see pieces written that incorporated more unusual string instruments (e.g. tenor viola in string quartet, octobass in orchestra). I don't see why the tenor viola in particular isn't used more.


And the hardanger fiddle!

I just wish all composers would better use the range and instrument gives them. There are a couple of double bass concerti that focus on the high end of the instrument...might as well just put fat strings on a cello at that point.


----------



## Morimur

senza sordino said:


> Not having any of own own composers,


We have plenty . . . I just don't know any of their names.

It's all the FLQ's fault.


----------



## Guest

When I think Canada, I just think Claude Vivier.


----------



## Albert7

Canada Dry makes me think about Anna Moffo for some odd reason.


----------



## hpowders

senza sordino said:


> Not having any of own own composers,


I hear you!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

nathanb said:


> And the hardanger fiddle!
> 
> I just wish all composers would better use the range and instrument gives them. There are a couple of double bass concerti that focus on the high end of the instrument...might as well just put fat strings on a cello at that point.


Geirr Tveitt - Hundred Hardanger Tunes is a fantastic set of work(s) .... though I don't know about direct writing for the hardanger fiddle


----------



## Albert7

Morton Feldman mornings are just great. It's too bad I don't have coffee in the house to drink while listening.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Dim7 said:


> It kinda creeps me out that you didn't even exist when I played Final Fantasy VII for the first time. I feel so old...





................


----------



## Albert7

And now for a commercial break of Haydn string quartet on TinyChat. Yes!


----------



## Guest

I'm fairly close to finishing up the "B" section of my iPod library (~120 hours of music) in my "listen to everything" project. It's quite a helpful experience, especially for composers that have a lot of little "ignored" albums thanks to a few go-to discs.

These are the composers on my iPod whose first names begin with the letter B.

Beat Furrer
Bedrich Smetana
Bela Bartok
Ben Johnston
Benjamin Britten
Bent Sorensen
Bernard Parmegiani
Bernd Alois Zimmermann
Bernhard Lang
Bohuslav Martinu
Brett Dean
Brian Ferneyhough
Bruno Maderna
Bruno Mantovani

I started this post like a mini "listening diary" post but I'm not sure I have the energy to cover it all right now! But I mostly just wanted to point out that *Bernd Alois Zimmermann* is perhaps one of the most "under-rated" composers of his time. Die Soldaten certainly gets a bit of attention, but his works in general feel so lively, inspired, powerful, eclectic, etc... It's a bit remarkable that he died (suicide) in 1970; like the most exciting works of Berio or Nono, he can sound incredibly contemporary and inventive.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

nathanb said:


> I'm fairly close to finishing up the "B" section of my iPod library (~120 hours of music) in my "listen to everything" project. It's quite a helpful experience, especially for composers that have a lot of little "ignored" albums thanks to a few go-to discs.
> 
> These are the composers on my iPod whose first names begin with the letter B.
> 
> Beat Furrer
> Bedrich Smetana
> Bela Bartok
> Ben Johnston
> Benjamin Britten
> Bent Sorensen
> Bernard Parmegiani
> Bernd Alois Zimmermann
> Bernhard Lang
> Bohuslav Martinu
> Brett Dean
> Brian Ferneyhough
> Bruno Maderna
> Bruno Mantovani
> 
> I started this post like a mini "listening diary" post but I'm not sure I have the energy to cover it all right now! But I mostly just wanted to point out that *Bernd Alois Zimmermann* is perhaps one of the most "under-rated" composers of his time. Die Soldaten certainly gets a bit of attention, but his works in general feel so lively, inspired, powerful, eclectic, etc... It's a bit remarkable that he died (suicide) in 1970; like the most exciting works of Berio or Nono, he can sound incredibly contemporary and inventive.


Sounds like a wonderful project!


----------



## Guest

Headphone Hermit said:


> Geirr Tveitt - Hundred Hardanger Tunes is a fantastic set of work(s) .... though I don't know about direct writing for the hardanger fiddle


He wrote two hardanger fiddle concerti.


----------



## Albert7

Tired after a long day and wet socks but yes, more Morty tonight!


----------



## ericdxx

Who is the most talked about and/or most controversial composer in talkclassical.com's history? 

I know it's Wagner in the Opera forum but i's looks like there are way more posts on Mahler in the orchestral and general forums!?


----------



## Stavrogin

nathanb said:


> I'm fairly close to finishing up the "B" section of my iPod library (~120 hours of music) in my "listen to everything" project. It's quite a helpful experience, especially for composers that have a lot of little "ignored" albums thanks to a few go-to discs.
> 
> These are the composers on my iPod whose first names begin with the letter B.
> 
> Beat Furrer
> Bedrich Smetana
> Bela Bartok
> Ben Johnston
> Benjamin Britten
> Bent Sorensen
> Bernard Parmegiani
> Bernd Alois Zimmermann
> Bernhard Lang
> Bohuslav Martinu
> Brett Dean
> Brian Ferneyhough
> Bruno Maderna
> Bruno Mantovani
> 
> I started this post like a mini "listening diary" post but I'm not sure I have the energy to cover it all right now! But I mostly just wanted to point out that *Bernd Alois Zimmermann* is perhaps one of the most "under-rated" composers of his time. Die Soldaten certainly gets a bit of attention, but his works in general feel so lively, inspired, powerful, eclectic, etc... It's a bit remarkable that he died (suicide) in 1970; like the most exciting works of Berio or Nono, he can sound incredibly contemporary and inventive.


Nice!
I love these OCD-like approaches. I use them myself.

Anyways, Boris Ljatoshinskij? Bernhard Crusell? Benedetto Marcello?


----------



## Stavrogin

ericdxx said:


> Who is the most talked about and/or most controversial composer in talkclassical.com's history?
> 
> I know it's Wagner in the Opera forum but i's looks like there are way more posts on Mahler in the orchestral and general forums!?


Yeah I think it's between Mahler, Shostakovic and Cage currently.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Stavrogin said:


> Benedetto Marcello?


I've got a couple of CDs with his music - from memory, early C18 Italian Baroque style - pleasant enough but it wouldn't be on the first page of my recommendations for listening to in any detail ... however, each to their own!


----------



## Stavrogin

Headphone Hermit said:


> I've got a couple of CDs with his music - from memory, early C18 Italian Baroque style - pleasant enough but it wouldn't be on the first page of my recommendations for listening to in any detail ... however, each to their own!


Neither on mine actually, but his project is called "listen to everything"


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Stavrogin said:


> Neither on mine actually, but his project is called "listen to everything"


I hope he is either very young (and can live to be as old as Melthusadec) or else that he has multiple pairs of ears :lol:


----------



## Dim7

MoonlightSonata said:


>


You know what's even creepier - I was once the same age as you! Yet still creepier - all TC members who are older than you were at some point your age!


----------



## Stavrogin

Dim7 said:


> You know what's even creepier - I was once the same age as you! Yet still creepier - all TC members who are older than you were at some point your age!


Tsk. I was way older than you at your age.


----------



## hpowders

One of the mysteries of Leonard Bernstein's career is why didn't he record the complete Schuman symphony cycle (3-10).

All we have is 3, 5, and 8 with a performance of No. 6 within an expensive huge box from the NY Philharmonic archive.

Bernstein being a champion of American music, this bewilders me.


----------



## Albert7

snow in SLC, Morton Feldman, and dampness. Great combo!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Bach! How does he write such amazing music?


----------



## Albert7

Feldman music keeps me more awake than coffee since I have to fight to hear every single note played.


----------



## Guest

Stavrogin said:


> Anyways, Boris Ljatoshinskij? Bernhard Crusell? Benedetto Marcello?


Alas, the iPod is limited on space, at a mere 160 GB. I like to have a real in-depth collection for composers I love (so I can get a sense of their different sides from quartets to operas to concertos to sonatas etc...), so this means that some obscure folk are sacrificed so that excellent names like Beat Furrer can have all 9 of his KAIROS albums make an appearance, and Bohuslav Martinu can really make a showing in regards to the wide range of genres he wrote for. There are even some composers that I have listened to a fair bit who have not made the most recent "final cut" in regards to that 160 GB. It's sad, dealing with space constraints...sad.

For the record, given that I probably only have about ~24 hours left of B music (should be do-able by no later than the end of next week), here are the "C's" that passed recent screening, in light of aforementioned limitations (notably missing Clara Schumann, for instance):

Camille Saint-Saens
Carl Maria Von Weber
Carl Nielsen
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach
Carlo Gesualdo
Cesar Camarero
Cesar Franck
Charles Ives
Charles Koechlin
Charles Wuorinen
Charles-Marie Widor
Charles-Valentin Alkan
Chinary Ung
Chris Dench
Claude Debussy
Claude Vivier
Claudio Monteverdi
Clemens Gadenstatter
Conlon Nancarrow


----------



## Albert7

Classical music heard after a nice, long afternoon nap is always most refreshing.


----------



## Guest

Stavrogin said:


> Neither on mine actually, but his project is called "listen to everything"


Pfft, you know what I mean.

Its intent is actually contrary to ambition. I am playing the "listen to everything [I have on my iPod]" game precisely to counter the downloader's mentality of getting more and more at the click of a button and never knowing any of it.


----------



## Albert7

tonight i want Berlioz with my spaghetti.


----------



## hpowders

To Mitsuko Uchida:

Please record the three Bartók piano concertos with Pierre.
He's getting old. Do it now before it's too late!!

Regards,
The Prolific Poster


----------



## Albert7

Snowing and snow melting... more Feldman today but next month I can't wait to return to Mahler and Bach .


----------



## DiesIraeCX

*Sviatoslav Richter* = The best "_Appassionata_" I've ever heard. I thought the piano was gonna fall apart during the coda of the finale!! I listened to two versions. One that is coupled with Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto (Leinsdorf/Chicago) and the other is a live performance in Moscow. I preferred the latter for pure intensity, but both were amazing.

- *Moscow performance*


----------



## Albert7

Beethoven is so awesome and I miss hearing him during March. No worries as I plan to return back soon...


----------



## MoonlightSonata

DiesIraeVIX said:


> *Sviatoslav Richter* = The best "_Appassionata_" I've ever heard. I thought the piano was gonna fall apart during the coda of the finale!! I listened to two versions. One that is coupled with Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto (Leinsdorf/Chicago) and the other is a live performance in Moscow. I preferred the latter for pure intensity, but both were amazing.
> 
> - *Moscow performance*


I love that sonata!


----------



## Albert7

So curious why Rach's symphonies are neglected relative to those of Prokofiev and Shosty?


----------



## Dim7

I just wanted to express my hatred for classical singing and the overwhelming, mind-numbing superiority of non-classical/"popular" singers.


----------



## RichterIsGod

Dim7 said:


> I just wanted to express my hatred for classical singing and the overwhelming, mind-numbing superiority of non-classical/"popular" singers.


You can hate all you want. But it does not mean classical singers are not superior singers than non-classical/"popular" singers. In music performance there is technique and there is music. Classical musicians are simply better at both than non-classical musicians.


----------



## Dim7

RichterIsGod said:


> You can hate all you want. But it does not mean classical singers are not superior singers than non-classical/"popular" singers. In music performance there is technique and there is music. Classical musicians are simply better at both than non-classical musicians.


Non-classical singers (what an awkward expression) are superior in expressivity, individuality of vocal timbre and just sound much better, and most of the time more natural/pleasant (their singing is closer to speaking voice), though they can also sound unnatural and even "unpleasant" if that is the desired effect.


----------



## Albert7

Oh well, I realize that I'm unable just to wake up and put on Morton Feldman that quickly this morning. Must prepare mentally.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

This is how the 'micropolyphonic' coda of Tapiola looks like in the spectrogram.


----------



## Albert7

Excited... I did a jogging session this morning around town to Morton Feldman. Great running music too!


----------



## Dim7

Is there a term for "Wagnerian in the sense that is obsessed with music which sounds like Wagner's but not so much Wagner's music itself"? I'm that.


----------



## Polyphemus

Dim7 said:


> Is there a term for "Wagnerian in the sense that is obsessed with music which sounds like Wagner's but not so much Wagner's music itself"? I'm that.


The Chaos Theory perhaps.:lol: :lol: :tiphat: :tiphat:


----------



## Albert7

What is the best classical music to listen to during a LAN party with video games?


----------



## MagneticGhost

I wish people would stop referring to the stupid thread ideas thread as STI.
STI means something completely different in my line of work and it's excessive use on this forum is bringing me out in hives!


----------



## Dim7

Only if you can provide an alternative abbreviation for Stupid Thread Ideas.


----------



## MagneticGhost

MagneticGhost said:


> I wish people would stop referring to the stupid thread ideas thread as STI.
> STI means something completely different in my line of work and it's excessive use on this forum is bringing me out in hives!


Just found a whole thread discussing this. I'm so last week. 

No ideas for alternatives Dim7 - I supply the problems not the solutions.


----------



## hpowders

STI is my favorite posting place, FYI.


----------



## Albert7

I took a late afternoon/early evening nap and man I feel refreshed... for Feldman.


----------



## Selby

My son (my avatar) just asked of me:

"Is your magic made of cocoa?"

Yes. Yes, boy, it is.


----------



## Albert7

I have nothing random left to say about Feldman today but it's all good isn't it?


----------



## PeteW

Selby said:


> My son (my avatar) just asked of me:
> 
> "Is your magic made of cocoa?"
> 
> Yes. Yes, boy, it is.


 wonderful, thanks for that.


----------



## Albert7

Today starts bear's Furtwangler month and I'm totally stoked.


----------



## Dim7

MagneticGhost said:


> I wish people would stop referring to the stupid thread ideas thread as STI.
> STI means something completely different in my line of work and it's excessive use on this forum is bringing me out in hives!


Maybe moderators should give TC members infection points for posting in that thread.


----------



## Albert7

Dim7 said:


> Maybe moderators should give TC members infection points for posting in that thread.


There should be a -1 like for each posting here so that it cancels out your regular posting... indeed indeed... then you go back to zero and get to enjoy Berlioz for the rest of the day.


----------



## Autocrat

The verb is *LOSE*. Not *loose*, that's an adjective that describes your spelling.


----------



## Albert7

Autocrat said:


> The verb is *LOSE*. Not *loose*, that's an adjective that describes your spelling.


Me haz kat dat dunno nah Bithaven Simfony Numb-skull Numiro Fife.


----------



## Dim7

I don't understand why I listen to so much string quartets and solo piano music - that is to say timbrally speaking "monochromatic" music. Aren't they inherently inferior to orchestral music?


----------



## hpowders

I listen to a lot of solo Bach keyboard music because I'm a loner....
and a loner's got to be alone.


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> I listen to a lot of solo Bach keyboard music because I'm a loner....
> and a loner's got to be alone.


I'm so lonely... so lonely






This is your new theme song, hpowders.


----------



## violadude

I keep hearing snippets of the Andy Griffith Theme Song in Shostakovich's symphonies. Has anyone else experienced this before?


----------



## Blancrocher

violadude said:


> I keep hearing snippets of the Andy Griffith Theme Song in Shostakovich's symphonies. Has anyone else experienced this before?


Sorry, Violadude, but I had to report your post to the moderators--I don't think I'll be able to forget this observation and I don't want any other Shosty worshipers to suffer this fate!


----------



## DeepR

I was just wondering why the beep I've never been to a recital in the "master pianist" series at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam... look at who's playing last season (right) and this season (left):
http://www.meesterpianisten.nl/seizoen.php?SeizoenID=27


----------



## Albert7

I am needing time to recompose myself so I've been listening to more jazz than classical. Tomorrow back to Morton Feldman however.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I find that I actually enjoy playing more in a smaller orchestra. I think it's because I can actually hear everyone and get a sense of how I should be playing. Does anyone else share this experience?


----------



## MagneticGhost

^^^^ yes - that's why I found quartet playing even more enjoyable


----------



## Weston

Dim7 said:


> I don't understand why I listen to so much string quartets and solo piano music - that is to say timbrally speaking "monochromatic" music. Aren't they inherently inferior to orchestral music?


Limits can be assets. I am astounded by the orchestral colors achieved by chamber music ensembles. It may be more noticeable than with full orchestra because of the expectation of monotony. The same principle works for limited palette visual art.



violadude said:


> I keep hearing snippets of the Andy Griffith Theme Song in Shostakovich's symphonies. Has anyone else experienced this before?


Yes, in fact. Shostakovich goes all light and fluffy way more often than people seem to think. But have you actually listened to Andy Griffith incidental music? It's bizarrely way modern.


----------



## maestro267

Dohnányi's Symphony No. 2 is surely a contender for the Last Romantic Symphony. It was written in 1945, 4 years before the last major force in Romanticism, Richard Strauss, passed away. It certainly belongs to the great tradition headed by Strauss and Mahler, of luxuriously-scored orchestral music. The slow movement belongs with the great D-flat major slow movements of music history, including Saint-Saens 3, Dvorak 9 and Bruckner 8. The finale is a huge 22-minute set of variations on a JS Bach chorale. Meanwhile, the scherzo is a real surprise among such weighty company. It's a genuine joke. Like the music sticking its tongue out at its listeners for a brief 4 minutes.


----------



## Albert7

When it comes to classical music I prefer to know many random things than one thing really well.


----------



## Albert7

More focused listening today on the iPod classic. Need a few hours away in solitude somewhere this morning.


----------



## Balthazar

DeepR said:


> I was just wondering why the beep I've never been to a recital in the "master pianist" series at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam... look at who's playing last season (right) and this season (left):
> http://www.meesterpianisten.nl/seizoen.php?SeizoenID=27


Wow! That's an incredible lineup. I hope you are able to attend some in the future.


----------



## Albert7

Waiting to get a haircut and thinking about Berlioz for some odd reason while the radio is playing Radiohead.


----------



## Balthazar

Listening to Glenn Gould play a Scarlatti sonata on this album makes me wish he had recorded more by that composer.


----------



## Albert7

There is nothing wrong with sentimental classical music in small doses honestly. I like some chill music say like that of Khachaturian.


----------



## Harrytjuh

A big discovery for me is Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber. His passacaglia for violin and the rest of the rosary sonatas is his most famous work, and very beautiful indeed, but you should also give this one a listen: 



The 2nd and 4th movement are pretty innovative, but you never hear of them.

Update: This piece too by the way: 



This is basically carnaval des animaux avant la lettre, it is awesome!


----------



## Chrythes

Not a discovery or a thought, and I don't think it warrants a new thread. I am looking for music with "American" sound. Do you guys have something to recommend?


----------



## violadude

Chrythes said:


> Not a discovery or a thought, and I don't think it warrants a new thread. I am looking for music with "American" sound. Do you guys have something to recommend?


Ives, Copland, Bernstein, Roy Harris.


----------



## Weston

. . . and of course, Dvorak.


----------



## Albert7

Listening to Schubert tonight with friends is an awesome experience. It makes me feel so chill on a spring day which is a blessing. A1 sauce.


----------



## Becca

violadude said:


> Ives, Copland, Bernstein, Roy Harris.


Except that there really is no such thing as an American sound. I suspect that you mean something like Copland with things such as _Appalachian Spring_ or _Rodeo_, but there is a world of difference between those and (e.g.) Ives or Harris, just as there is between the plains states and parts of New England.


----------



## Albert7

I am lucky to have wonderful friends here on TC who can share their love of obscure conductors here for sure... it has been quite a blessing indeed. Of course, there's always bear with his Furtwangler.


----------



## maestro267

Becca said:


> Except that there really is no such thing as an American sound. I suspect that you mean something like Copland with things such as _Appalachian Spring_ or _Rodeo_, but there is a world of difference between those and (e.g.) Ives or Harris, just as there is between the plains states and parts of New England.


Not one definitive American sound, sure. But there are multiple "sounds". Bernstein's gritty and dark city scenes, Gershwin's glamorous city scenes, and Copland's wide open vistas are all evocative musical portraits of America.


----------



## Albert7

If I did a blind listening test, would it be possible to identify the label that recording came out on?


----------



## Blancrocher

I'd known that Paul Hindemith's brother Rudolf was a talented musician, but I only recently discovered that he was a composer in his own right. Via Spotify you can access 3 volumes of the "Rudolf Hindemith Edition" (which includes piano and chamber works). I'm enjoying comparing his preludes and fugues and sonatas for piano with those of his brother.


----------



## science

maestro267 said:


> Not one definitive American sound, sure. But there are multiple "sounds". Bernstein's gritty and dark city scenes, Gershwin's glamorous city scenes, and Copland's wide open vistas are all evocative musical portraits of America.


Going along with "American" meaning "the United States of America":

Besides the jazzy stuff, perhaps the most American sounds to me are either Ives or the minimalists.

Daugherty offers an American sound of a totally different sort, but that is probably doomed to obscurity.

Also, we should probably not forget Dvorak's "New World" stuff. No matter what the composer had to say about it, a lot of people thought it sounded "American."

But moving along, "American" should probably include the whole two continents, and in that case there's a lot more to consider. The Latin American Baroque may or may not have its own sound, depending on the work. Ramirez' _Missa Criolla_ is interesting. And maybe most obviously, the most "American" classical music must include the "more classical-ish" works in the tango nuevo tradition.


----------



## Albert7

Little known fact: I actually own five times more jazz CDs than classical CDs as I have been doing inventory a few moments ago.


----------



## DeepR

Prokofiev is AWESOME!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

DeepR said:


> Prokofiev is AWESOME!


Yes! He is!

. .


----------



## Cosmos

Bruno Walter wrote two symphonies! I didn't even know he was a composer!
I'm listening to his first right now. It's really good. The first movement was eh, 2 was beautiful, 3 was fun, and the finale is awesome


----------



## Albert7

Noting how much listening to classical music has been able to alleviate a lot of the stresses that I have been facing lately. It has been a total blessing in my life that's for sure.


----------



## Guest

I'll never forget that fateful day when I was just casually riding around in my car with Annie Fischer's recording of the Hammerklavier playing in the background and a couple of minutes into the third movement I began thinking, "Hmm...this sure sounds similar to Brahm's 4th Symphony." Then it hit me like a sack of bricks -- that brooding, mystical theme that carries the first movement in Symphony #4 had been taken straight out of Beethoven's sonata all along! I couldn't believe it, because that 1st Movement sounded so pensive and Brahmsian in character, but nonetheless, ever since this epiphany I started approaching the Allegro non Troppo of Symphony #4 as a theme and variations on the Hammerklavier and I think this perspective has actually helped me to appreciate both masterpieces even more.

I realize this isn't exactly the world's biggest secret, and I apologize if I'm like the fifth guy to post about it in this thread. My mind was just so seriously blown when I finally made this connection that I feel obliged to spread the word. I've attached examples in this post, fast-forward to about 7:30 in the Hammerklavier to hear what I'm talking about.


----------



## KenOC

Interesting. While I am not a fan at all of Gould's late Beethoven sonatas, he pretty well nailed the slow movement of the Hammerklavier. Who knew???

As for the Brahms connection, interesting. Gotta check this out, thanks!


----------



## science

Tavener's _Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas_ is a great work that I've been regrettably slow getting to. I've only heard it once but it knocked me out the first time, and soon I'll actually have two different recordings of it.

I'm not sure there's any good reason for this or that I'll be of the same opinion in a week, but at least the first time I heard it I thought it sounded a little like Ockeghem. Obviously Ockeghem was a few generations earlier, so I looked up whether there was some influence to see if I was just off my rocker or what, and I found out this: the _Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas_ had an interesting little afterlife as an inspiration for the In Nomine, a genre of English consort music that some people here probably already know all about. Looking at that article's list of composers of that genre - including Byrd, Bull, Gibbons, Tomkins, Lawes, and Purcell - I realize I've heard some already without appreciating what I was hearing. I've also heard some by John Jenkins...

... and Kurtág! Indeed, the genre has been revived, evidently, as the article says. So I'll be looking up the _Witten In Nomine Broken Consort Book_. Pretty soon we'll have to be scorning Kurtág, Ferneyhough, Haas, Rihm, and Sciarrino for being mere neo-renaissance-ists! I'm getting there early to make some good real estate deals....

Anyway, interesting bit of discovery for me.


----------



## starthrower

Lengthy and fascinating interview with the late Nicolas Slonimsky.
http://www.bruceduffie.com/slonimsky.html

Also includes a link to an interview with Penderecki.
http://www.bruceduffie.com/penderecki.html


----------



## Albert7

Morton Feldman... not as Zen Buddhist by any means now that I've done the research at the university this morning. Man o man.


----------



## Blancrocher

Only just now did the blindingly obvious Bartok/bar talk pun occur to me. I'm surprised not to have seen this mentioned on the forum.


----------



## PeteW

Blancrocher said:


> Only just now did the blindingly obvious Bartok/bar talk pun occur to me. I'm surprised not to have seen this mentioned on the forum.


Too Brahms & Liszt to notice?


----------



## MagneticGhost

science said:


> Tavener's _Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas_ is a great work that I've been regrettably slow getting to. I've only heard it once but it knocked me out the first time, and soon I'll actually have two different recordings of it.
> 
> I'm not sure there's any good reason for this or that I'll be of the same opinion in a week, but at least the first time I heard it I thought it sounded a little like Ockeghem. Obviously Ockeghem was a few generations earlier, so I looked up whether there was some influence to see if I was just off my rocker or what, and I found out this: the _Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas_ had an interesting little afterlife as an inspiration for the In Nomine, a genre of English consort music that some people here probably already know all about. Looking at that article's list of composers of that genre - including Byrd, Bull, Gibbons, Tomkins, Lawes, and Purcell - I realize I've heard some already without appreciating what I was hearing. I've also heard some by John Jenkins...
> 
> ... and Kurtág! Indeed, the genre has been revived, evidently, as the article says. So I'll be looking up the _Witten In Nomine Broken Consort Book_. Pretty soon we'll have to be scorning Kurtág, Ferneyhough, Haas, Rihm, and Sciarrino for being mere neo-renaissance-ists! I'm getting there early to make some good real estate deals....
> 
> Anyway, interesting bit of discovery for me.


That piece is an absolute masterpiece. I remember recommending on your thread to listen to the Parrott version which is phenomenal. Unfortunately OOP. The Sixteen put on a good show but there is a greater depth and soaring purity to the Taverner Consort. I'd love to hear the Huelgas have a go! 
But Missa Gloria is transcendent. Needs to be better known.


----------



## science

MagneticGhost said:


> That piece is an absolute masterpiece. I remember recommending on your thread to listen to the Parrott version which is phenomenal. Unfortunately OOP. The Sixteen put on a good show but there is a greater depth and soaring purity to the Taverner Consort. I'd love to hear the Huelgas have a go!
> But Missa Gloria is transcendent. Needs to be better known.


I think I will have the Parrott recording in May, as well as several other recordings that have been holding me up on that. For logistical and financial reasons, I have some things sent to my family in the USA rather than to Korea, so I will pick them up next time I visit my family.

I got the Sixteen for several reasons - one, that I got impatient to hear MGtT; another, that I like the Sixteen more than it seems that you do; and finally, the store where I go sometimes shows me things that they think I'd like, and I have the devil's own time getting them to stock Renaissance works, so I was very happy when they showed me they'd stocked that, and I bought it immediately. Incentive structures!

I've spent so much money there, that store now has a photo of me shopping there. So I'm making a difference in the world. Somewhere in the middle of the world's second largest city is a store with a few more recordings of Byrd than it would probably have if not for me....


----------



## MagneticGhost

^^^^ I do like the Sixteen. But occasionally find they lack a certain muscularity. I wouldn't hesitant to recommend them though. Especially their Palestrina.


Props to your shop and your influence. Perhaps they should rename in your honour


----------



## hpowders

It's amazing how much like Brahms, Dvorak can sound, yet retaining his own unquestionable stamp.

Listen to Dvorak's great A Major Sextet. You'd swear it could be Brahms, but you also know nobody but Dvorak could have written it.


----------



## Albert7

Classical music is the quickest path to being more broke because you can get multiple interpretations of the same work.


----------



## Balthazar

*Separated at Birth?*

Edgard Varèse and Joaquin Phoenix


----------



## Chris

Radio 3 played Haydn's London Symphony (#104) this morning. It seems the supposed London street cry in the last movement ('Hot Cross Buns') is actually a European folk tune.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I wonder if painstakingly researched historical biopics about composers will be the next trend once superheroes are finished; I have my fingers crossed!

If not I'll settle for action packed alternate history tales with monster fights inserted as breathers between exciting piano duel sequences! How about a miniseries about all the famous funny anecdotes? ... Anything?


----------



## Albert7

With a few days left in my Morton Feldman listening month, I realize that classical music is going to burn me out soon. Lizst next month but then less classical music during the summer so that I can push harder into classical again during the fall.


----------



## Posie

Why do people feel so annoyed at coughing during concerts, as if people are purposely trying to disrupt the concert by coughing? I doubt many complainers would waste their concert tickets because they are still recovering from a chest-cold.


----------



## hpowders

Posie said:


> Why do people feel so annoyed at coughing during concerts, as if people are purposely trying to disrupt the concert by coughing? I doubt many complainers would waste their concert tickets because they are still recovering from a chest-cold.


People cough because they are bored. It gives them something to do. It's hard to sit still and be quiet when people find the listening to be torture.

Why they even bother attending is another story and there are 8 million more in the Naked City.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

No, they actually are doing it on purpose.

When I was at the San Francisco Symphony, I went to a chamber music concert with members of the symphony as performers.

They had the Dutilleux string quartet and Schubert string quintet.

The Dutilleux was extremely well played. Very energetic, well balanced, in tune. And yet because it was a modern work, the audience coughed SO MUCH during the piece. The applause at the end was modest.

On the other hand, the Schubert was not well played. The first violinist was often (and I'm serious: often) out of tune when playing in the highest violin octave. And there was also intonation and dynamic balance issues in the 3 middle voices. Yet, the audience was basically silent and were rapt with attention. The applause at the end was thunderous.


----------



## Posie

SeptimalTritone said:


> No, they actually are doing it on purpose.
> 
> When I was at the San Francisco Symphony, I went to a chamber music concert with members of the symphony as performers.
> 
> They had the Dutilleux string quartet and Schubert string quintet.
> 
> The Dutilleux was extremely well played. Very energetic, well balanced, in tune. And yet because it was a modern work, the audience coughed SO MUCH during the piece. The applause at the end was modest.
> 
> On the other hand, the Schubert was not well played. The first violinist was often (and I'm serious: often) out of tune when playing in the highest violin octave. And there was also intonation and dynamic balance issues in the 3 middle voices. Yet, the audience was basically silent and were rapt with attention. The applause at the end was thunderous.


So a cough is the passive-aggressive version of a tomato?


----------



## hpowders

SeptimalTritone said:


> No, they actually are doing it on purpose.
> 
> When I was at the San Francisco Symphony, I went to a chamber music concert with members of the symphony as performers.
> 
> They had the Dutilleux string quartet and Schubert string quintet.
> 
> The Dutilleux was extremely well played. Very energetic, well balanced, in tune. And yet because it was a modern work, the audience coughed SO MUCH during the piece. The applause at the end was modest.
> 
> On the other hand, the Schubert was not well played. The first violinist was often (and I'm serious: often) out of tune when playing in the highest violin octave. And there was also intonation and dynamic balance issues in the 3 middle voices. Yet, the audience was basically silent and were rapt with attention. The applause at the end was thunderous.


If I knew that you were also in the audience I would have certainly ceased coughing.


----------



## science

Posie said:


> So a cough is the passive-aggressive version of a tomato?


I haven't observed the phenomenon ST described, but if I did I'd probably attribute it to the audience's discomfort rather than a form of booing. Attending a concert, for many people, is a form of display, and they want to be sure that they're doing what they're supposed to do. Everyone knows how they're supposed to respond to Schubert's music - mostly sitting there and enjoying its prettiness, or whatever emotions they take it to be expressing (with the help of the program), a few of them even following the structure of the movements. But then Dutilleux comes on and they're not sure what they're supposed to be doing, so they're uncomfortable. As the culture gradually assimilates Dutilleux to the point that listeners know what they're supposed to do when they hear his music, I'd guess the amount of coughing during Dutilleux will asymptotically approach the amount of coughing during Schubert.


----------



## Chris

The Mediterranea Trio is performing in West Kirby this evening. I'm not going because I have bronchitis and would probably cough. Concert goers everywhere please *take note*.


----------



## PeteW

Chris said:


> The Mediterranea Trio is performing in West Kirby this evening. I'm not going because I have bronchitis and would probably cough. Concert goers everywhere please *take note*.


Let this altruism be an example to us all. 
(Still, a shame that you're not going though).


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Was Schoenberg afraid of the 13th harmonic?


----------



## hpowders

After listening to Schoenberg's Violin Concerto with Hilary Hahn, I am reminded of Heifetz' refusal to play it because he called it "unplayable".
Of course this was poppycock.
It just wasn't showy enough for him; perhaps he didn't want to learn an atonal piece. But unplayable? Rubbish!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I thought this was very informative (and quite revealing). On Chopin's view of Beethoven, from _The Changing Image of Beethoven_ (Comini).

"Chopin was a Romantic who disliked Romanticism. He waxed sardonic on Liszt's pretentious vacuity as a composer, heartily hated the bombast of Berlioz, and was mostly indifferent towards Schubert, Schumann, and, especially, Mendelssohn." Concerning the progenitor of Romanticism in music, it was the abandonment of "eternal principles" that specifically disturbed Chopin about Beethoven's fulminating legacy… "Chopin is supposed to have complained that, "In his sonatas [Beethoven] is sometimes obviously annoyed because the piano is not an orchestra."… "In spite of the high admiration he felt for Beethoven's works, certain parts of them always appeared to him to be rudely sculptured; their structure too robust to please him, their wrath was too tempestuous and their passion too overwhelming, the lion marrow which fills Beethoven's every phrase was matter too substantial for the taste of Chopin…"… "Adolf Gutmann, Chopin's gifted young piano student from Heidelberg, confirmed his teacher's discomfort when confronted with Beethoven's extremes, reporting that Chopin said that Beethoven raised him up one moment to the heavens and the very next moment precipitated him in the mire."

"Before we lay aside Chopin's sharply qualified image of Beethoven, let us add to the scales one anecdote that weighs in on the side of veneration. Chopin, whose great passion was opera (he adore Bellini), seems to have succumbed uncritically to Fidelio. Chopin gave a gift to one of his child piano students, a special gift, "the score of Fidelio along with the words: "Receive, my dear little friend, this great masterwork; read therein as long as you live, and remember me also sometimes."


----------



## Weston

This may explain why I am lukewarm to Chopin's music as I consider Fidelio to be a lesser Beethoven work. (Certainly not a failure, but one of the lesser triumphs in Beethoven's overall body of work.)


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Weston said:


> This may explain why I am lukewarm to Chopin's music as I consider Fidelio to be a lesser Beethoven work. (Certainly not a failure, but one of the lesser triumphs in Beethoven's overall body of work.)


Same here with regards to _Fidelio_. For me, it doesn't even make his top 30 works.


----------



## KenOC

Chopin certainly found Beethoven out of sympathy with his own tastes. Probably a good thing -- can you imagine a Beethoven-inspired Chopin? He would have been neither fish nor fowl.

However, he routinely assigned the Op. 26 piano sonata to his students for study and practice.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Beyonce dancing to Shostakovich 10 symphony.


----------



## Woodduck

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Beyonce dancing to Shostakovich 10 symphony.


The future of classical music is in good hands.

And I've been so worried.


----------



## hpowders

Hilary Hahn wasted a fine opportunity by coupling her fine Schoenberg Violin Concerto performance with a mediocre Sibelius.

We surely don't need another Sibelius, especially a performance as dull as this one!

So many other worthy, less-recorded violin concertos begging to be coupled with the Schoenberg!

Shame on you Ms. Hahn!!

Opportunity squandered!


----------



## Dim7

Really, why post embedded videos? What's wrong with posting just links?

Yes, I've myself posted embedded videos, but I think I won't anymore. Slows down for no good reason... I know my laptop is crap though.


----------



## Weston

hpowders said:


> Hilary Hahn wasted a fine opportunity by coupling her fine Schoenberg Violin Concerto performance with a mediocre Sibelius.
> 
> We surely don't need another Sibelius, especially a performance as dull as this one!
> 
> So many other worthy, less-recorded violin concertos begging to be coupled with the Schoenberg!
> 
> Shame on you Ms. Hahn!!
> 
> Opportunity squandered!


I tend to agree. I doubt I've listened to the Sibelius more than once. I wouldn't go as far as shaming though. It's a good album for the Schoenberg alone.


----------



## Piwikiwi

hpowders said:


> Hilary Hahn wasted a fine opportunity by coupling her fine Schoenberg Violin Concerto performance with a mediocre Sibelius.
> 
> We surely don't need another Sibelius, especially a performance as dull as this one!
> 
> So many other worthy, less-recorded violin concertos begging to be coupled with the Schoenberg!
> 
> Shame on you Ms. Hahn!!
> 
> Opportunity squandered!


Do you like Schönberg's violin concerto as much as his piano concerto?


----------



## hpowders

Why save certain pieces for special times of the year? If you love Handel's Messiah, Bach's Christmas and Easter Oratorios, I say play them whenever you wish! Enjoy!


----------



## hpowders

Studying the Schönberg Violin Concerto, I was astonished to find half-way through the third movement a pretty famous tribute quote played by the solo violin. My memory bank says Haydn!.... Haydn! Through all that dissonance!! 

One great Austrian composer paying tribute to another.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

The whole-tone scale seems rather underused - I find it fascinating personally. Since no common chords can be made (due to the absence of the fourth and fifth) one either has to abandon common-practice tonality or find a new way of writing it without chords.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

^Today we also have Messiaen's third mode of limited transposition to play with, which contains in itself the whole-tone scale and allows for a variety of chord types. Apparently a favourite of Takemitsu. All these symmetrical modes suggest keys but never settle on a particular one when used alone.









Looking into the future the 'next development in the field'(well there's set theory but meh, not the same thing really) could be for example the construction of modes that span more than an octave, which would probably really be two or more known modes/scales one after the other restricted by registers but may still have a character of their own like the rest of these modes.


----------



## Dim7

MoonlightSonata said:


> The whole-tone scale seems rather underused - I find it fascinating personally. Since no common chords can be made (due to the absence of the fourth and fifth) one either has to abandon common-practice tonality or find a new way of writing it without chords.


Not really in my experience - I find that it's pretty common in early modernism and soundtracks. The augmented scale on the other hand seems to be quite neglected... or maybe I just confuse it with phrygian dominant and other scales.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Why save certain pieces for special times of the year? If you love Handel's Messiah, Bach's Christmas and Easter Oratorios, I say play them whenever you wish! Enjoy!


The reasoning is to help one's self to recall and appreciate the "meaning of the season".

Of course, if you aren't religious, this is no reasoning at all.

And, I don't particularly "save them"... but other times of the year, I'm certainly slightly less likely to pay attention to the relationships between text and music.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I'm starting to think it's ridiculous that so many people would take Mozart's last 3 or 4 symphonies over Haydn's entire catalogue. I think I like Haydn's slow movements just as much if not more than Mozart's, and while I prefer the melodic ideas in Mozart's fast movements, I think it's only the outer movements of the 40th and the Jupiter finale that move me in ways Haydn never does.

Setting aside the technical aspects I know nothing about, there are plenty of Haydn symphonies that match the witty exuberance of the 39th for me, and even if I conceded that none of them alone matched it, I would never trade (off the top of my head) Oxford, Clock, and Military for the 39th alone.


----------



## GhenghisKhan

Dim7 said:


> Really, why post embedded videos? What's wrong with posting just links?
> 
> Yes, I've myself posted embedded videos, but I think I won't anymore. Slows down for no good reason... I know my laptop is crap though.


yeah seriously.


----------



## Albert7

I am back from my extended vacation folks. Thanks for the friends who PM'ed me .

And yes, I am in my Liszt month now.


----------



## Dustin

I've resumed reading Beethoven's bio by Jan Swafford and came across a really inspiring little memo Beethoven wrote to himself. The fact that I'm also 25 years old and have dealt with numerous health issues made it doubly appealing to me. 

Anyway, here it is: "Courage. In spite of all weaknesses of the body, my spirit shall rule. You are 25 years old; this year must determine the complete man - nothing must remain undone" 

So besides being a great quote and insight into his legendary perseverance, it was also noted by Swafford that Beethoven was actually only 23 at the time. So that makes me wonder, did Beethoven not know how old he was? Or was he lying to himself for some motivational reason?


----------



## KenOC

Beethoven was confused about his age his entire life (though it was no mystery). His father had advertised him as two years younger than he was when quite young, in order to push the "child Mozart" image. He seems to have constantly thought he was younger than he was, or sometimes older.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Have you ever been overwhelmed by the sheer amount of works on your "to-listen" list? That's my situation right now. It's too much. My brain doesn't understand how to take it one small group of works at a time, I'm so scatter-brained that my list is all over the place. It's a bonafide miracle that I've been fairly consistent in running through Maurizio Pollini's new Beethoven piano sonata cycle. I'm almost finished.

Last on the list (purposefully last, absence makes the heart grow fonder) is my plan to go through the Mahler symphony cycle with entirely different conductors, for a fresh listen.


----------



## Albert7

Snowing now in SLC and thinking that I need some Schubert's Winterreise right now.


----------



## Dim7

I was just told by my doctor that my health will keep deteriorating rapidly and that there's only one medication for my condition: *an intense dose of likes from a single post*. I will have basically no chance of surviving unless I receive at least 13 likes for this post, but any amount above that will increase my likelihood of recovering so more the better.


----------



## Polyphemus

Dim7 said:


> I was just told by my doctor that I my health will keep deteriorating rapidly and that there's only one medication to my condition: *an intense dose of likes from a single post*. I will have basically no chance of surviving unless I receive at least 13 likes for this post, but any amount above that will increase my likelihood of recovering so more the better.


I don't believe a word of it but just in case.


----------



## hpowders

Why am I even here???


----------



## Vesteralen

hpowders said:


> Why am I even here???


Well, the short term goal would be to get to 13000 posts.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Why stop there? I say shoot for 23,000.


----------



## Balthazar




----------



## Albert7

Still snowing here in SLC and listening to Liszt makes me feel more melancholy. For me, it is very evocative.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Albert7 said:


> Still snowing here in SLC and listening to Liszt makes me feel more melancholy. For me, it is very evocative.


Perhaps this is more appropriate for "What happens in your life"?


----------



## hpowders

Vesteralen said:


> Well, the short term goal would be to get to 13000 posts.


What do I call 13,000 posts?

Saturday.


----------



## Albert7

Just noted that many pianists have attempted to play Liszt's Sonata and the times have varied greatly with different tempos. I need to check out the Argerich version because I heard wonderful things about it.

So grateful for various interpretations.


----------



## hpowders

How come I look back 50-100 pages or so on Classical Music Discussion and the threads were soooooo much more interesting???


----------



## Albert7

Hindemith String Quartet Op. 22 is extraordinary. Lots of poetry within the piece.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

hpowders said:


> How come I look back 50-100 pages or so on Classical Music Discussion and the threads were soooooo much more interesting???


On page 101 there's a "composer vs composer" poll, an ArtMusic poll, a TC list, "Top 25 of all Time"... 
More curiously, though, there is a thread about composers that died young and one about transcriptions - I have seen thread similar to both of these very recently.

It seems not much has changed...


----------



## Weston

hpowders said:


> How come I look back 50-100 pages or so on Classical Music Discussion and the threads were soooooo much more interesting???


I have the same reaction when I look back over the years of my life.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> On page 101 there's a "composer vs composer" poll, an ArtMusic poll, a TC list, "Top 25 of all Time"...
> More curiously, though, there is a thread about composers that died young and one about transcriptions - I have seen thread similar to both of these very recently.
> 
> It seems not much has changed...


History repeats itself. Nothing new under the sun.

Glenn Gould always livens up a wonderful Beethoven piece, as I have noticed perkiness lately.


----------



## hpowders

Weston said:


> I have the same reaction when I look back over the years of my life.


As Beethoven never would have said at my age,

"I hear you!"


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

There are a lot of weird, contradictory impulses that pollute my listening habits. I'll skip the violin sonatas and early quartets of Mozart because those aren't as respected as his other works, and then I'll switch to my playlist of the most "respected" theme songs of cartoons and videogames. I feel sooo diverse and open minded for going back and forth between repetitive pop and classical, and even pat myself on the back for liking Salieri's piano concerto because, after all, I don't get _my_ opinions from movies! And then I'll skip Mozart's 31st symphony because it must suck because it isn't one of the last 4.

Stop it brain!


----------



## Dim7

I used to think "If it doesn't have a wikipedia article, it must be worthless."



Clairvoyance Enough said:


> And then I'll skip Mozart's 31st symphony because it must suck because it isn't one of the last 4.


But hey at least it has a nickname, 'Paris'! I also lately discovered that 29th symphony is worth listening as well.


----------



## Albert7

Is it tacky if people use classical music for their cell phone ringtones? I am tempted honestly. Maybe Schnittke on my phone will freak people out?


----------



## Guest

Finally got my birthday present about two months late:

Two tickets to see Mahler's 3rd on May 21st.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Albert7 said:


> Is it tacky if people use classical music for their cell phone ringtones? I am tempted honestly. Maybe Schnittke on my phone will freak people out?


Ornstein. Or maybe Penderecki.


----------



## Sloe

Albert7 said:


> Is it tacky if people use classical music for their cell phone ringtones? I am tempted honestly. Maybe Schnittke on my phone will freak people out?


Tacky or not I prefer to not have classical music or any music that I like as ringtone because I don´t want to be annoyed over music that I like.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I can't decide if listening to John Coltrane makes Schoenberg sound melodic, or the other way around...


----------



## Albert7

Listening to the Final Fantasy 7 soundtrack made me realize the various classical music influences all embedded into it.


----------



## Weston

Listening to Schoenberg makes Schoenberg sound melodic.


----------



## Albert7

Going to check out Lang Lang playing Liszt as I heard that he's top notch in his interpretations. Will find out soon.


----------



## Sordello

It seems to me that Gottschalks - La Nuit des Tropiques / A Night in the Tropics has a similar sound to Frederick Delius'- Florida Suite, has anyone else noticed this similarity? Sort of the same vibe or pathos and I really enjoy it.

Links to each:


----------



## Albert7

I think that people think to overlook Liszt's non-piano works which is rather sad. He did so many types of compositions.


----------



## Albert7

Listening to Elliott Carter's Flute Concerto nearly made me cry. It's so haunting, like haiku about the density of life.


----------



## Guest

Inspired by the spiffing post-50s thread and my weekend concert I've just done a trawl of a local library and come away with CDs by Xenakis, Dutilleux, Rautavaara and Scriabin.
Yum yum.


----------



## Weston

Albert7 said:


> I think that people think to overlook Liszt's non-piano works which is rather sad. He did so many types of compositions.


I'm not sure this is entirely true. Les Preludes is about the only Liszt I listen to regularly and was made famous to the general public as the theme to the 1930s Flash Gordon serials. A really good recording never fails to produce goose bumps for me.


----------



## science

My great postmodern discovery has been that to be a truly unique and original individual, I need to surrender my judgement to the consensus of experts unless I have very good reason to doubt them. Today I discovered that in favoring the Titans of Early Stereo whenever possible, I have been unconsciously applying this principle to the selection of classical music recordings. Now that I realize it, just to be rebellious, I might even embrace it.


----------



## dgee

science said:


> My great postmodern discovery has been that to be a truly unique and original individual, I need to surrender my judgement to the consensus of experts unless I have very good reason to doubt them. Today I discovered that in favoring the Titans of Early Stereo whenever possible, I have been unconsciously applying this principle to the selection of classical music recordings. Now that I realize it, just to be rebellious, I might even embrace it.


Come dear science. We all know that any position you take will be contra some sort of hegemony. These courageous stances are just what we all expect of you now


----------



## Weston

What have you folks done to me? 

While I've always been a little curious about the more modern works and have given them a try throughout the decades, I never really embraced them as entertaining. But with a little guidance from TC and a little effort (though not too much) I've started really enjoying the more avant garde works of the 20th and early 21st centuries. 

Now while I'm at work listening to Prokofiev or Shostakovich, or even Bach and Schubert, etc. I find them unsatisfying. I want to get back to the more experimental. 

Will my appreciation for more conventional classical return? 

(Think of the children! Think of the thousands of CDs and mp3 files I have stockpiled!)


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> What have you folks done to me?
> 
> While I've always been a little curious about the more modern works and have given them a try throughout the decades, I never really embraced them as entertaining. But with a little guidance from TC and a little effort (though not too much) I've started really enjoying the more avant garde works of the 20th and early 21st centuries.
> 
> Now while I'm at work listening to Prokofiev or Shostakovich, or even Bach and Schubert, etc. I find them unsatisfying. I want to get back to the more experimental.
> 
> Will my appreciation for more conventional classical return?
> 
> (Think of the children! Think of the thousands of CDs and mp3 files I have stockpiled!)


I found that learning to love 20th century modernism ended up increasing my appreciation for Bach and Mozart more than I could have imagined. You learn to appreciate their subtlety of harmony and voice leading once it's no longer taken for granted.


----------



## Weston

I'm sure it's just an infatuation and then I'll be more balanced when it fades -- and maybe more well rounded


----------



## Albert7

Liszt played badly is rather awful honestly... it's like OMG very messy .


----------



## science

dgee said:


> Come dear science. We all know that any position you take will be contra some sort of hegemony. These courageous stances are just what we all expect of you now


Yes, but hopefully never without redemptive irony.


----------



## Albert7

Just got a new record player and now I'm having lots of trouble finding out what new vinyl releases for classical music are. Ugh .


----------



## Guest

Anyone care to have a brief dialogue regarding just how cool the Spanish avant-garde is?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

nathanb said:


> Anyone care to have a brief dialogue regarding just how cool the Spanish avant-garde is?


I would like to - but I don't know any. Any recommendations?


----------



## Guest

MoonlightSonata said:


> I would like to - but I don't know any. Any recommendations?


Most of these folks are on KAIROS, and most of *those* folks can be heard on Verso as well, for when the single KAIROS disc leaves you too hungry. I like these people a lot 

Roberto Gerhard
Francisco Guerrero
Francisco Lopez
Alberto Posadas
Hector Parra
Jose Maria Sanchez-Verdu
Jose Manuel Lopez Lopez
Cesar Camarero
Jesus Rueda
Jesus Torres
Ramon Lazkano
Mauricio Sotelo
Manuel Hidalgo
Elena Mendoza

There's probably some more lurking in various parts of the NEOS catalogue or the Col Legno catalogue that I haven't scoured yet...


----------



## MoonlightSonata

nathanb said:


> Most of these folks are on KAIROS, and most of *those* folks can be heard on Verso as well, for when the single KAIROS disc leaves you too hungry. I like these people a lot
> 
> Roberto Gerhard
> Francisco Guerrero
> Francisco Lopez
> Alberto Posadas
> Hector Parra
> Jose Maria Sanchez-Verdu
> Jose Manuel Lopez Lopez
> Cesar Camarero
> Jesus Rueda
> Jesus Torres
> Ramon Lazkano
> Mauricio Sotelo
> Manuel Hidalgo
> Elena Mendoza
> 
> There's probably some more lurking in various parts of the NEOS catalogue or the Col Legno catalogue that I haven't scoured yet...


Thanks, that should keep me occupied for a while.


----------



## Guest

I could probably take the top 9 of those, throw in Falla somewhere, strongly consider Victoria, and call it my top 10 Spaniards without losing much sleep.


----------



## SilverSurfer

nathanb said:


> Most of these folks are on KAIROS, and most of *those* folks can be heard on Verso as well, for when the single KAIROS disc leaves you too hungry. I like these people a lot
> 
> Roberto Gerhard
> Francisco Guerrero
> Francisco Lopez
> Alberto Posadas
> Hector Parra
> Jose Maria Sanchez-Verdu
> Jose Manuel Lopez Lopez
> Cesar Camarero
> Jesus Rueda
> Jesus Torres
> Ramon Lazkano
> Mauricio Sotelo
> Manuel Hidalgo
> Elena Mendoza
> 
> There's probably some more lurking in various parts of the NEOS catalogue or the Col Legno catalogue that I haven't scoured yet...


Great selection, nathanb, even if you begin with an already "classic avant-garde" like Gerhard and then jump 2 generations: that known as the '51 (Luis de Pablo, CHalffter, Bernaola, Marco, Guinjoan, Mestres-Quadreny, Benguerel, etc...) and the intermediate (that of Guerrero, but also many others less famous or more "specials" like Carles Santos or Llorenç Barber).

Now listening to Fausto by JTorres, soundtrack for Murnau's film, as recorded from the radio.

:tiphat:


----------



## Albert7

Why am I awake at 2:12 AM when I have to give a lecture on Liszt in over 12 hours from now?

Mahler 9th that's why.

 Who needs sleep?


----------



## dgee

Couldn't resist posting this:






And it's a lot more interesting than you might expect. The tightly controlled crescendo seems even more effective without the melodies and the harmony comes into sharper focus - fun!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

dgee said:


> Couldn't resist posting this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it's a lot more interesting than you might expect. The tightly controlled crescendo seems even more effective without the melodies and the harmony comes into sharper focus - fun!


...and it makes you feel even more sorry for that poor snare drummer.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

My sister just lamented that more music wasn't like Bohemian Rhapsody, "like 3 songs in one and it keeps changing, so you don't get bored!" She's made similar comments about other songs and artists before going back to a bunch of repetitive stuff that I know she doesn't even like because we make fun of it all for being so repetitive. It makes me want to scream because she is so stubbornly against listening to anything new, and god forbid I ever suggested something more than 50 years old! It's like, but this stuff here is exactly what you're saying you want! Someone get me a hat to throw on the ground in frustration! 

On a somewhat similar note, when I hear classical music in a movie trailer or some other silly video I scroll down in the hopes that I'll see someone ask what that beautiful music is; it makes me so happy to see that and wonder if that person just caught the bug!


----------



## SimonNZ

The mighty John11inch chanel on YT, which alerted me and many others to hundreds of wonderful contemporary compositions worthy of purchase, has been completely deleted, alas.


----------



## Albert7

Tomorrow begins my 4-5 month experiment of listening to classical music only on Fridays which means it's going to be hard. We will see how long I will last.

Hopefully it will be a fruitful journey.


----------



## Albert7

Messiaen and Takemitsu rapidly becoming two composers that I use in my Buddhist meditation exercises. Very uplifting and joyful.


----------



## Dim7

Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart


----------



## hpowders

Dim7 said:


> Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart Mozart


Which one?


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> Which one?


Back to Bach back to back bach to bach bach bach.

Lately I'm astonished how many movies this year have classical music in them. Makes me proud!


----------



## Weston

Albert7 said:


> Tomorrow begins my 4-5 month experiment of listening to classical music only on Fridays which means it's going to be hard. We will see how long I will last.
> 
> Hopefully it will be a fruitful journey.


It's probably Friday on some part of Mars still.


----------



## Celloman

Hmmm. An interesting day we're having here on TC.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Celloman said:


> Hmmm. An interesting day we're having here on TC.


Yes, quite.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> Yes, quite.


Indeed, one can't complain that today wasn't operatic at least .


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

fifteen characters


----------



## Albert7

2 more weeks before Randy's huge vinyl $2 sale. Time to score more classical shebang.


----------



## hpowders

Regarding the Hilary Hahn recordings of the Schoenberg and Sibelius Violin Concertos, after playing the Schoenberg, listening to the Sibelius is like all of a sudden being plunged into a hot, bubbly spa. Ahhhhhhhh!!!


----------



## Weston

A disadvantage of listening on random play when movements are mixed up (aside from mixing movements up) is having one's mind accidentally blown.

Today I was listening to Beethoven's Sonata No. 18 (Op. 31, No. 3 to the people who actually care about such things), movement 2. Scherzo.

It's playing along when suddenly a horn comes in, then a cello, and then the harmonies go distinctly modern . . . What the heck happened?

It turns out the Schrezo ended on the _exact same piano note_ the Penderecki Sextet begins with and I thought it was the same movement continuing. About the same tempo and key too -- for a while. Had me totally fooled. That was a fun experience.


----------



## Albert7

I have decided to use the iPod touch now for my ALAC encoded CD rips and the iPod classic for the iTunes purchases. It's just a lot easier to organize in any case so I can just pick up whichever iPod I need to bring with me out to do my daily listening.


----------



## Guest

Weston said:


> A disadvantage of listening on random play when movements are mixed up (aside from mixing movements up) is having one's mind accidentally blown.
> 
> Today I was listening to Beethoven's Sonata No. 18 (Op. 31, No. 3 to the people who actually care about such things), movement 2. Scherzo.
> 
> It's playing along when suddenly a horn comes in, then a cello, and then the harmonies go distinctly modern . . . What the heck happened?
> 
> It turns out the Schrezo ended on the _exact same piano note_ the Penderecki Sextet begins with and I thought it was the same movement continuing. About the same tempo and key too -- for a while. Had me totally fooled. That was a fun experience.


Being a cheapskate Spotify Free user I have to put up with stuff like last night: I was blithely listening to Schnittke's Symphony no. 7 when suddenly (I swear at greater volume) I'm suddenly accosted by an advert for Eminem.

It certainly makes for eclectic listening experiences!


----------



## Blancrocher

dogen said:


> Being a cheapskate Spotify Free user I have to put up with stuff like last night: I was blithely listening to Schnittke's Symphony no. 7 when suddenly (I swear at greater volume) I'm suddenly accosted by an advert for Eminem.
> 
> It certainly makes for eclectic listening experiences!


You probably shouldn't have let Spotify know that you enjoy polystylism, dogen.


----------



## Guest

I wish TC members didn't have similar names. It causes me great cognitive dissonance. Come on Art persons, you know who you are!


----------



## Albert7

Huge question... can Sandisk deliver an adequate good player at all? No clue but testing Bach on it tonight just to see how it goes.


----------



## Weston

This morning an attractive lady at work skipped over to my desk and wanted to show off her new dress. It's not every day a guy gets an invitation to openly admire a lady (without seeming creepy, I mean), so I enjoyed the fashion show for a moment. She then told me she is going to the symphony tonight. Well, that got me really going with genuine interest. "Really? Do you know what they're playing?"

"It's Kenny G."

I tried really hard not to look like a deflated balloon.


----------



## Celloman




----------



## Albert7

Classical vinyl releases 1960's-1990's = undervalued on the used market
Classical vinyl releases 2000 - now = overvalued and needs to be priced more fairly.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Orchestra practise today and... Mahler! We're playing an abridged (alas) version of the third movement of the first symphony. I would like to do the full one, but there are a few nine-year-olds in the orchestra who probably wouldn't appreciate it...


----------



## Albert7

dogen said:


> I wish TC members didn't have similar names. It causes me great cognitive dissonance. Come on Art persons, you know who you are!


I am Dim7's brother from another mutha. 

And actually I selected 7 because I was born on October 7. I couldn't do straight Albert apparently .


----------



## Celloman

So I was in the record store today, and I couldn't help overhear two teenagers talking about how their parents liked to go to classical music concerts.

One of them says, "I went with them to a concert last week, and there were mostly old people."

The other one says, "The only two classical musicians I know are Bocelli and Josh Groban."

"Yeah," says the first. "They're the best ones."

I thought I was going to scream.


----------



## Albert7

Watching Natalie Dessay sing Lucia is making me feel so happy and upbeat on a SLC rainy day. Will be doing some meditation to Stockhausen Zen-like later on for sure.


----------



## Dim7

"What can you tell about a composer from the music he/she writes." -thread is acting weird....


----------



## hpowders

Why am I still here?


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> Why am I still here?


Who is the Boulez detective agency again?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> Why am I still here?


Because your repressed emotional feelings towards all the members of this site overtake your consciousness every day and draw you to the computer screen to log back in........


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

dogen said:


> I wish TC members didn't have similar names. It causes me great cognitive dissonance. Come on Art persons, you know who you are!


I'm thinking of getting my handle changed. What do you think of these?

*doggen
ddogen
dogenn
dougen
duogen
dodgen
dogogen
dodogen
dogoden
dogegen
dodegen
dogeden
dogoen
doegen
degon
degen
dogon*


----------



## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'm thinking of getting my handle changed. What do you think of these?
> 
> *doggen
> ddogen
> dogenn
> dougen
> duogen
> dodgen
> dogogen
> dodogen
> dogoden
> dogegen
> dodegen
> dogeden
> dogoen
> doegen
> degon
> degen
> dogon*


dogegen is the best

dodogen is the worst


----------



## Weston

This is a great idea. With my avatar I should change my name to dog-gone. On a side note I have a little trouble with the cognitive dissonance of the creature in dogen's avatar pic.


----------



## Guest

Weston said:


> This is a great idea. With my avatar I should change my name to dog-gone. On a side note I have a little trouble with the cognitive dissonance of the creature in dogen's avatar pic.


Are we up to date, Weston??!!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Maybe I should just change my name to Western.


----------



## hpowders

I consider myself to be a fairly sophisticated classical music listener, having been been involved with this hobby for many years.

Yet every time I check the "Current Listening" pages, I am overwhelmed at the sheer quantity of worthy compositions I have still not heard!! 

Humbling!

So much music! So little time!


----------



## Sloe

I think it is very frustrating that over 100 year old music is called modern or even very modern.


----------



## Weston

dogen said:


> Are we up to date, Weston??!!


Correction: "with the creature that _used to be _in dogen's avatar pic." I forgot you had changed it.


----------



## Albert7

I just found two CD's of traditional Tibetan Buddhist chants at the library. Could be considered as classical music but haven't heard those yet and will be getting back to those later on this week.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Found a nice website about Gagaku: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/groups/gagaku/index-en.html


----------



## Albert7

Alas the joys of sharing classical music with pals. I just enjoy chilling out with people who enjoy lovely works.

Looking at random future releases that I want on iTunes. So many things coming out this year!


----------



## Medtnaculus

Got myself a book titled Russian Masters which features some great pieces from composers such as Kopyloff and Rebikoff. Some really nice pieces in there just from quickly playing through a few.


----------



## Albert7

Tonight I realize that classical music on vinyl is relatively easy to find on eBay and ironically much easier than CDs... Lots of treasures to find for a buck a piece.


----------



## Antiquarian

Recently whilst digging around in my shelves of CDs I came across a Chandos series of Sir Charles Villiers Stanford. For the life of me I cannot recollect where I obtained them or if I had ever played them. The recordings date from the early 90's, so it could be possible that they have been unplayed for over twenty years. Isn't that a shame?


----------



## Albert7

Thank goodness that 99.9999995% of classical music is awesome because most rap and hip hop around 90% created after 2010 is pretty awful sounding . My research is bearing this out...


----------



## hpowders

A new law of nature for planet earth:

The prettier the woman with no previous exposure to classical music, the more intense is her hallucinatory hatred for classical music.


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> A new law of nature for planet earth:
> 
> The prettier the woman, the more intense is her hatred for classical music.


hpowders, a picture of my wife, who loves classical music, especially Shostakovich. She was quite a fox when I married her 40+ years ago, and she still does OK in my book!


----------



## hpowders

KenOC said:


> hpoweder, a picture of my wife, who loves classical music, especially Shostakovich. She was quite a fox when I married her 40+ years ago, and still does OK in my book!


The law was refined to avoid this particular situation. Re-read the revised law.

Or read it here: "The prettier the woman with no previous exposure to classical music, the more intense her hallucinatory hatred for classical music."


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> A new law of nature for planet earth:
> 
> The prettier the woman with no previous exposure to classical music, the more intense is her hallucinatory hatred for classical music.


That sounds way too cynical. Perhaps dating Anne-Sophie Mutter would be easier.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I just won $200 at a scholarship performance/competition! It's all jolly exciting.
Next year I can't enter on the piano again, so I'll be deciding between organ and viola!


----------



## KenOC

MoonlightSonata said:


> I just won $200 at a scholarship performance/competition!


CONGRATULATIONS! If that's not long enough, I'll add more.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> I just won $200 at a scholarship performance/competition! It's all jolly exciting.
> Next year I can't enter on the piano again, so I'll be deciding between organ and viola!


Congrats!  You are awesome.


----------



## Avey

(responding to the title premise...)

...that *VW's Fifth Symphony* affects me like no other work by him. Yet, the piece has that longing, wistful sentiment prevalent throughout his work. That I am so grateful he wrote this. That the arc (composition) just wants to make me curl up and cry about how fantastic it sounds.


----------



## PeteW

MoonlightSonata said:


> I just won $200 at a scholarship performance/competition! It's all jolly exciting.
> Next year I can't enter on the piano again, so I'll be deciding between organ and viola!


Excellent! Well done!


----------



## Dim7

Why does this melodic pattern - semitone up, some interval down, semitone up, some interval down etc. sound 'mocking'? Like in the octatonic scale for example - A# - B - G - G# - E - F - C# - D. Or is that just me?


----------



## hpowders

MoonlightSonata said:


> I just won $200 at a scholarship performance/competition! It's all jolly exciting.
> Next year I can't enter on the piano again, so I'll be deciding between organ and viola!


Very nice!! Do you do Bar Mitzvahs?


----------



## violadude

Is it just me or does it seem like you need to shove album cover pictures in people's faces in order for them to notice your posts in the currently listening thread?


----------



## Weston

I read them all, picture of not. I "like" the pieces I know and enjoy, or at least remember enjoying. I appreciate the works I don't know and actually like that they might be suggestions to broaden my listening, but for whatever reason I usually only click likes for pieces or composers I actually already like.

Does that, like, make sense like?


----------



## Woodduck

violadude said:


> Is it just me or does it seem like you need to shove album cover pictures in people's faces in order for them to notice your posts in the currently listening thread?


It seems to be the world we live in. You can't even sell a piece of furniture on Craigslist if you don't have a phone that takes "pics." People can no longer be bothered to talk to you or drive half a mile to come and see what you have.

TC will soon be LC: LookClassical.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> It seems to be the world we live in. You can't even sell a piece of furniture on Craigslist if you don't have a phone that takes "pics." People can no longer be bothered to talk to you or drive half a mile to come and see what you have.
> 
> TC will soon be LC: LookClassical.


I'm all for it.

Looks are everything.

. . . if you have them.


----------



## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'm all for it.
> 
> Looks are everything.
> 
> . . . if you have them.


One for whom looks are everything is not worth looking at.


----------



## Dim7

Why am I reading threads that I find utterly boring? That's the weird thing about forums - they can be addictive even when they are boring....


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> One for whom looks are everything is not worth looking at.


No, only staring at.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dim7 said:


> Why am I reading threads that I find utterly boring? That's the weird thing about forums - they can be addictive even when they are boring....


If one's not part of the show then one's part of the boredom.


----------



## brotagonist

The cure is worthless on a patient that doesn't have the disease.


----------



## Woodduck

Dim7 said:


> Why am I reading threads that I find utterly boring? That's the weird thing about forums - they can be addictive even when they are boring....


Same with the internet in general - and with TV, and with food, and with friends, and with...

Life.

(Not my life, of course).


----------



## Polyphemus

Woodduck said:


> Same with the internet in general - and with TV, and with food, and with friends, and with...
> 
> Life.
> 
> (Not my life, of course).


What an utterly intelligent response. Well batted Sir.


----------



## Woodduck

Polyphemus said:


> What an utterly intelligent response. Well batted Sir.


And for that I do thank you, Sir.

:tiphat:


----------



## TwoPhotons

A quick game: Which famous composer do you think made the following comment for The Telegraph in 2013?



> On every new project I try to write in a different way, and see if there's a new side of myself I haven't explored. I find the idea of repeating a formula very boring, and I have to feel that each project is a new life.


That's right...none other than Ludovico Einaudi of course! :tiphat:


----------



## Tristan

Random thought: Sometimes I feel like headbanging to the percussive "climax" of the 1st movement of Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto No. 2 lol


----------



## Albert7

Wow, my vinyl collection is growing and I really need to catalogue everything that I own. Going to be a huge project alone for itself.


----------



## maestro267

Something that crossed my mind recently. I've never bought a classical disc based on the artist(s) performing on it. My purchases are based almost purely on the composer and the music contained therein. Whoever's playing it doesn't really matter, as long as the recording quality is good. Like, I wouldn't buy a poorly-recorded mono recording from the 1930s or whatever, despite its apparent "historical" significance.


----------



## Figleaf

maestro267 said:


> Something that crossed my mind recently. I've never bought a classical disc based on the artist(s) performing on it. My purchases are based almost purely on the composer and the music contained therein. Whoever's playing it doesn't really matter, as long as the recording quality is good. Like, I wouldn't buy a poorly-recorded mono recording from the 1930s or whatever, despite its apparent "historical" significance.


:scold:

;D


----------



## Guest

Figleaf said:


> :scold:
> 
> ;D


Figleaf, you've gone over your daily emoticom limit.
Some faces have been removed. We'll let it pass this time.


----------



## Weston

maestro267 said:


> Something that crossed my mind recently. I've never bought a classical disc based on the artist(s) performing on it. My purchases are based almost purely on the composer and the music contained therein. Whoever's playing it doesn't really matter, as long as the recording quality is good. Like, I wouldn't buy a poorly-recorded mono recording from the 1930s or whatever, despite its apparent "historical" significance.


I tend to agree, especially regarding recording quality, but within the past few years I have begun to notice a huge difference in performances. There are a few performers that don't deliver quite what I need. Gould's Bach, Argerich's Schumann and Szell's Beethoven are examples of performers I've learned to avoid (for me). Boulez, Uchida and Salonen trend to deliver closer to my personal taste. I'm afraid much of this has to do with a kind of imprinting based on whatever I happen to hear first, but this is not always the case.


----------



## Albert7

Weston said:


> I tend to agree, especially regarding recording quality, but within the past few years I have begun to notice a huge difference in performances. There are a few performers that don't deliver quite what I need. Gould's Bach, Argerich's Schumann and Szell's Beethoven are examples of performers I've learned to avoid (for me). Boulez, Uchida and Salonen trend to deliver closer to my personal taste. I'm afraid much of this has to do with a kind of imprinting based on whatever I happen to hear first, but this is not always the case.


Wow... I think that Gould's Bach and Argerich's Schumann are some of the dopest tracks ever laid onto wax or any other media beknownst to mankindest.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I need to try one of those classical music breaks again (I lasted like a week the first time, with cheating). I had forgotten how much enjoyment music just forces on you when the timbre of the instrument is still fresh to your ears. I haven't heard any gosh darned flutes or recorders or bagpipes in forever, and I'm just falling in love with everything that has one of them in it, even boring Telemann sonatas. A bagpipe came up out of nowhere in this german dance and I got goosebumps just because it was a fresh sound. 

I wonder how long I would have to wait for the violin(s), piano, and all those usual suspects to reacquire that innate magic. I wonder how fair it is to even judge anything I hear when my ears are so inured as they apparently must be to so many instruments. I remember when I got to press a random chord on a real piano instead of this Casio, and my god the crispness, that extra ringing that you just don't hear in any recording ever; it really reminds me that musicians go far far far beyond what is necessary to create an effect, at least in me.


----------



## leroy

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> A bagpipe came up out of nowhere in this german dance and I got goosebumps just because it was a fresh sound.


If you're liking pipes make sure and listen to some "real" pipe music - Piobairreachd this is one of my favorites


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

leroy said:


> If you're liking pipes make sure and listen to some "real" pipe music - Piobairreachd this is one of my favorites


I love this. What a beautiful instrument.


----------



## leroy

yea they are amazing and to hear them outside from a mile or so away on a foggy day is almost surreal.

oh couldn't find this one before but this is another beautiful one "The Daughter's Lament"






I should put a quick blurb on Piobairreachd here. They consist of a "ground", the first lines of melody he play's, followed by increasingly complex variations, the complexity based on the amount and type of grace notes used, also with varied timing depending on the movement.


----------



## Albert7

Tonight is the last concert for the Utah Symphony.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Oh my god John Williams's recordings of Bach on guitar are absolutely amazing. I've always loved Bach on guitar/lute but I always assumed the awkward pauses and hiccups in most performances were an unavoidable product of the transcription process. But there are no hiccups at all in his playing! None! These are the performances I always imagined. 

I wish I could find an equivalent for Bach's harpsichord works.


----------



## Weston

Sitting at work I heard a seldom played album come up at random on my iThing. I don't remember which album now but I remember really enjoying it and thinking, "I need to get that someday." This either means I have way too much music or that collecting has become an addiction or both. Of course I already have it if it's on the iThing.


----------



## Weston

Albert7 said:


> Wow... I think that Gould's Bach and Argerich's Schumann are some of the dopest tracks ever laid onto wax or any other media beknownst to mankindest.


They are both too fast and flashy virtuosic for my taste is all. I do like them in other ways.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've always found that under slower tempos the inherent beauty of individual notes seems to shine through even if I'm not in love with the melody or phrase itself, so I've always used slow movements as entrypoints to new things. I tried this with some Schoenberg and Berg and it worked magnificently! If I hadn't heard Schoenberg's pieces for orchestra yet I could say this was the first time I've ever loved 12 tone music (if that's the right term; I'm not sure). It was, though, probably the first time I've found it beautiful, or maybe a better word is pretty.


----------



## Albert7

The last live concert for the Utah Symphony was last night. I can't wait to catch up on all those recordings soon.


----------



## Weston

You know, it's really hard to find something by composers when they are better known as conductors within the recording era. I heard a Bruno Walter symphony on YouTube and now all I can find are recordings of his conducting. :-/


----------



## Albert7

Should conductors compose? That can be rather hit and miss as I am finding out.


----------



## Woodduck

Here's a thread about conductors who compose:

http://www.talkclassical.com/14252-conductors-who-compose.html


----------



## Guest

Beyond the usual suspects like Bernstein, Boulez, Maderna, Segerstam etc, some other fantastic composer conductors are Johannes Kalitzke, Enno Poppe, and Hans Zender.

Also, someone recommended avoiding Segerstam's music in that thread, with no justification... I don't get it. I think his music is great.


----------



## EdwardBast

Mahler and Rachmaninoff were great conductors.


----------



## senza sordino

Do you think there would be any interest in compiling recommended lists of

1) music for guitar, solo and with orchestra or chamber groups. (not a long list, 40-50 pieces I'd reckon)
2) Film music
3) Early music
4) exclusively baroque

??

I am just putting out some ideas, and I don't want to compile a new list while the contemporary list is ongoing. I'm a big fan of guitar music, it was my first instrument. I'd be happy to compile this list.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

1) not sure how it would go or how many pieces of quality there are that fit the bill
2) I have no interest
3) good idea, as for many it remains as unexplored (or even unrecognised!) as post-1950 repertoire
4) not a bad idea, not sure if really necessary


----------



## Weston

I'd go for baroque. (I know -- too easy. But true.)


----------



## Albert7

senza sordino said:


> Do you think there would be any interest in compiling recommended lists of
> 
> 1) music for guitar, solo and with orchestra or chamber groups. (not a long list, 40-50 pieces I'd reckon)
> 2) Film music
> 3) Early music
> 4) exclusively baroque
> 
> ??
> 
> I am just putting out some ideas, and I don't want to compile a new list while the contemporary list is ongoing. I'm a big fan of guitar music, it was my first instrument. I'd be happy to compile this list.


Let us do a list of film music. Seriously I would be up in all that. (I started a jazz album list and apparently we just don't have enough people who know jazz to vote here... ...)


----------



## MoonlightSonata

senza sordino said:


> Do you think there would be any interest in compiling recommended lists of
> 
> 1) music for guitar, solo and with orchestra or chamber groups. (not a long list, 40-50 pieces I'd reckon)
> 2) Film music
> 3) Early music
> 4) exclusively baroque
> 
> ??
> 
> I am just putting out some ideas, and I don't want to compile a new list while the contemporary list is ongoing. I'm a big fan of guitar music, it was my first instrument. I'd be happy to compile this list.


1. Other people would probably be interested, I most likely wouldn't
2. Yes, I would probably participate.
3. As 1
4. As 2


----------



## omega

10 of the best: redesigned pianos (by Tom Service from _The Guardian_)


----------



## Albert7

DJ Premier is the Boulez and Schoenberg of hip hop for me. He is able even on his most commercial tracks for groups like Black Eyed Peas sample a two bar bassline loop from Curtis Mayfield, chop it up, and replay new melodies using that sample into a forceful melody into a song like BEP Empire.

Sublime brilliance for me.


----------



## Dim7

Could we please stop comparing "atonal" music to abstract visual arts? Setting aside the validity of "atonality" as a concept, it makes no sense. All instrumental music is quite abstract in a sense, in that it doesn't represent anything directly. Some tonal pieces have explicit "programs", others don't, a lot of isn't necessarily all that expressive in the Romantic sense of musical drama (Baroque, Classical era). The same applies to music called "atonal", some of it is more rooted in Romanticism and emotional expression, some of it is not, some of it even has "programs".


----------



## Weston

^I hadn't come across this yet or noticed a plague of it, but you are correct. Music is highly abstract.

"Abstract" is another one of those misused words when it comes to the visual arts too. Some of my artsier acquaintances get upset about it in the same way more knowledgeable music people get upset about "atonal," but I have come to accept its popular meaning as non-representational. But even that latter can be a silly label. Every work of art represents _something_.


----------



## Albert7

Dim7 said:


> Could we please stop comparing "atonal" music to abstract visual arts? Setting aside the validity of "atonality" as a concept, it makes no sense. All instrumental music is quite abstract in a sense, in that it doesn't represent anything directly. Some tonal pieces have explicit "programs", others don't, a lot of isn't necessarily all that expressive in the Romantic sense of musical drama (Baroque, Classical era). The same applies to music called "atonal", some of it is more rooted in Romanticism and emotional expression, some of it is not, some of it even has "programs".


Worse is when I hear peeps compare atonal music to cubism! I think that cubism is pretty tonal to me...


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Albert7 said:


> Worse is when I hear peeps compare atonal music to cubism! I think that cubism is pretty tonal to me...


:lol: I've never heard anyone compare it to cubism! The usual comparison I've heard is with action painting or expressionism.


----------



## clavichorder

The very best obscure composers of the Classical Era...its a tough one to compile. There are some that aren't so obscure, but don't get due credit; these are Hummel, Clementi, CPE Bach, Boccherini, Johann Stamitz, JC Bach, John Field.

Then there are those golden composers that are hardly known at all that really deserve more championing, easily being of the quality of the above composers in their own ways; Joseph Martin Kraus, Ernst Wilhelm Wolf, WF Bach, JCF Bach, Henri Joseph Rigel.

I almost made a thread about this, but was too bashful for the thought of flooding the forum with an excess of fawning over things nobody else is gonna give a damn about.


----------



## clavichorder

Also, I've been hearing that early music people can be really snobby. God help if I ever become one of THEM. I just want to love the music and know about it, but if I direct my more more ambitious energies that way, I fear I will be at risk. I want to be a really good performer of the music, write cool music like it, and advocate as much as I can, and yet that risk of becoming a total snob...


----------



## SeptimalTritone

clavichorder said:


> The very best obscure composers of the Classical Era...its a tough one to compile. There are some that aren't so obscure, but don't get due credit; these are Hummel, Clementi, CPE Bach, Boccherini, Johann Stamitz, JC Bach, John Field.
> 
> Then there are those golden composers that are hardly known at all that really deserve more championing, easily being of the quality of the above composers in their own ways; Joseph Martin Kraus, Ernst Wilhelm Wolf, WF Bach, JCF Bach, Henri Joseph Rigel.
> 
> I almost made a thread about this, but was too bashful for the thought of flooding the forum with an excess of fawning over things nobody else is gonna give a damn about.


You should make a thread. I bet there would be interested people!


----------



## Albert7

Yep, those audiophile headphones truly make a difference in my listening enjoyment that's for sure.

Now I just need to find some solid quality earbuds indeed.


----------



## isorhythm

Having just listened to his more recent Missa Solemnis recording a couple times, I've become convinced Philippe Herreweghe is one of the all-time great conductors, up there with any of those super serious German guys from the golden age. His B minor mass and St. Matthew Passion, Mozart Requiem and now Missa Solemnis are all best in class. None of the usual HIP criticisms you might level at, say, Gardiner apply to him. And he gets such beautiful sounds from his ensembles.

No point to this, really, but I highly recommend that Missa recording to anyone who hasn't heard it.


----------



## Chris

I heard on the radio this morning that Elgar didn't pronounce his name the way we do, with a long 'ah' at the end. He pronounced the last syllable as a short unstressed 'guh'.


----------



## Albert7

Strangely enough, this summer has been rather hard to find time to hear more classical music. Maybe next month?


----------



## Mahlerian

"I've always been a bit of a serialist, in all of my music." - Igor Stravinsky

Example from The Firebird included:
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.2/mto.13.19.2.ewell.html


----------



## Chris

Gerald Finzi's clarinet concerto came up on the radio this afternoon. In the intro the announcer said Finzi was a serious apple cultivator and rescued many varieties from extinction.


----------



## Celloman

The next time I hear the term "social construct" as applied to music, or anything else for that matter, I just might kill myself.


----------



## Dim7

Celloman said:


> The next time I hear the term "social construct" as applied to music, or anything else for that matter, I just might kill myself.


It's useless, death is just a......


----------



## Albert7

Ugh all of these home renovations projects are blocking all my time to listen to more classical music and jazz. At least my condo will be nice and spiffy by the time my roommate Ben moves out in a few weeks for his marriage.


----------



## Weston

Know how you feel. I'm working overtime and too tired to get into any serious listening. It's bad for your health.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Strange coincidence - I had just finished listening to Prokofiev's _Lieutentant Kijé_ on CD, so I switched to the radio. After the piece playing had finished, _Lieutenant Kijé_ came on again.
I don't mind though. I could listen to it all day.


----------



## Albert7

Accursed time. Seriously I need more time to listen to classical music instead of all these home building projects.

Actually shelves needs to be built. Or else how am I going to store my classical music LOL .

Time to let the egg eat the chicken this week.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I've been trying to find actual video evidence of the most awesome Australian composer Brett Dean playing in the Berliner Philharmoniker, and I've FINALLY FOUND ONE!!!! The unfortunate thing is, the viola section doesn't always get much time in front of the camera so it was difficult to find one where he is absolutely clear. But here he is at 1:10, the guy without the glasses






And here he is again 15 years later, this time playing solo in his viola concerto






He's definitely aged and looks quite a bit different now, but even in the video from 1996 he has similar features to his brother, so I am certain that's Brett Dean.


----------



## Weston

I do like that viola concerto, what we can hear of it, and the refreshing lack of tuxedos avoiding that "raft of penguins" effect. I'll add Brett Dean to my check out someday list.


----------



## Albert7

If Kanye West were a classical music composer, perhaps he would be like Wagner? Or maybe Wagner wasn't enough of a egomaniac?


----------



## Albert7

Something about listening to Morton Feldman and other "lengthy" composers:

Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.

Also my first official post here was made on November 19, 2014. This marks today exactly my seventh month here already.

"Where to find US digital download of Anna Prohaska's first album "Sirene"?
I haven't had any luck finding Anna Prohaska's first solo album on DG called "Sirene" via digital download. Puzzled why it's a limited release.

Any help on this?"

I can't believe that I have been able to enjoy the classical music marathon from that simple post. I really want to thank everyone for being here for me through the thick and thin of it all.


----------



## Celloman

Albert7 said:


> Also my first official post here was made on November 19, 2014. This marks today exactly my seventh month here already.


And you've only done about 7,000 posts? It's time to pick up the pace, man!


----------



## Albert7

Celloman said:


> And you've only done about 7,000 posts? It's time to pick up the pace, man!


Thanks man. Quality over quantity and a touch of wit is crucial. This summer I realize how much I am getting into video game music.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've been trying to find actual video evidence of the most awesome Australian composer Brett Dean playing in the Berliner Philharmoniker, and I've FINALLY FOUND ONE!!!! The unfortunate thing is, the viola section doesn't always get much time in front of the camera so it was difficult to find one where he is absolutely clear. But here he is at 1:10, the guy without the glasses
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here he is again 15 years later, this time playing solo in his viola concerto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's definitely aged and looks quite a bit different now, but even in the video from 1996 he has similar features to his brother, so I am certain that's Brett Dean.


A violist-composer? This I must hear!


----------



## musicrom

MoonlightSonata said:


> A violist-composer? This I must hear!


A lot of composers seem to have played the viola. Beethoven, Mozart, Dvorak, Hindemith, Stamitz...


----------



## MoonlightSonata

musicrom said:


> A lot of composers seem to have played the viola. Beethoven, Mozart, Dvorak, Hindemith, Stamitz...


I was thinking of violist-composer as a parallel to pianist-composer. Since Beethoven, Mozart and Dvorak didn't write much for solo viola (I don't _think_.... if they did, that's wonderful!), they seem to me to be more composers who play the viola as well.


----------



## musicrom

Currently listening to the entire Also Sprach Zarathustra for the first time. I've heard bad things about it, but to my surprise, it's actually not bad! Perhaps not Strauss's best work, but wholly interesting nonetheless.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

For the first time this week I have enjoyed music of Scriabin, Webern and Britten. The god of music enlightened me!!!


----------



## Weston

I've categorized my music lists more or less by how they make me feel. A large orchestra makes me feel differently than a chamber work, and in turn solo piano gives me different expectations than does a chamber work with piano. Then there's baroque with so much counterpoint I lump it all together regardless of ensemble size, etc. 

But now that I'm enjoying more modern composers my system is all a mess. Where do 18 musicians fit in? Is that an orchestra or chamber? What about electronics? 

I guess I need a new category -- weird modern ensembles, non-orchestral.


----------



## Albert7

Yep, realized how much Brian Wilson's composition style for Pet Sounds and Smile were influenced by classical music and just pure innocent experimentation. Wow, jaw dropping results.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Weston said:


> I've categorized my music lists more or less by how they make me feel. A large orchestra makes me feel differently than a chamber work, and in turn solo piano gives me different expectations than does a chamber work with piano. Then there's baroque with so much counterpoint I lump it all together regardless of ensemble size, etc.
> 
> But now that I'm enjoying more modern composers my system is all a mess. Where do 18 musicians fit in? Is that an orchestra or chamber? What about electronics?
> 
> I guess I need a new category -- weird modern ensembles, non-orchestral.


That's an interesting way of categorising! My system is to have my favourite works in places most easy to reach, and Elgar and works conducted by Karajan in a small dark corner that I have to bend over uncomfortably to retrieve.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MoonlightSonata said:


> A violist-composer? This I must hear!


Oh yes! He's written a few viola works including that viola concerto; check out _Intimate Decisions_ for solo viola and _Testament_ for 12 violas. The latter work he has also fully orchestrated, which is well worth a listen. I have both versions.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Listening to Scriabin's Prometheus give me desire to go to a mountain and try to have contact with aliens.


----------



## Guest

Should you find yourself in the Shropshire region I'd recommend a trip to Bishops Castle. It is a small place but has a fantastic classical CD shop. There are thousands of second hand (guaranteed recordings) and "remaindered" (still in the wrapper) to choose from. Typical price is £5; the cheapest I got yesterday was £1.50. And a little cafe within it as well. What's not to like?


----------



## clavichorder

If I were to pick one Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven symphony to share with a classical novice for a good representation of their respective styles as showcased alongside each other, which ones would I pick? That is a difficult question, but I would want them to be works vaguely comparable to each other, so as to feature them fairly evenly and to the best advantage of each. I think I know which works I would pick. 

They would all be in the same key: E flat; Haydn's 'Mercury'-no. 44, Mozart's Symphony 39, and Beethoven's 3rd-Eroica. As for recordings, I would do Hogwood's Haydn, Linden's Mozart, and Bruggen's Beethoven, to give them all solid and musical, but also HIP renderings.

I could add John Elliot Gardiner's Schumann 3 to the mix and that would really be a smooth showcasing of the development of the symphony in the late 18th and early 19th century.


----------



## Albert7




----------



## Chris

I bought a Hyperion recording of Grieg string quartets played by the Chilingirian Quartet. The second (in F major, 1891) is completed from sketches by Levon Chilingirian himself. Bizarrely, the last movement stops dead right in the middle of a tune. Since Mr Chilingirian was presumably editing the sketches I can't understand why he didn't bring the work to a sensible close.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Go on Spotify and search a composer's name and "transcription" or "arrangement." I've found so many wonderful things! The 14th Haydn quartet for winds, Figaro and Giovanni for string quartet and other instruments, The Great Fugue and Overture 2 in B minor for winds, and more. If the same composers are to be recorded over and over this should be a more regular thing! 

"Bach in musical box" is a charming one too. And the cello suites for Marimba!


----------



## Chris

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> Go on Spotify and search a composer's name and "transcription" or "arrangement." I've found so many wonderful things! The 14th Haydn quartet for winds, Figaro and Giovanni for string quartet and other instruments, The Great Fugue and Overture 2 in B minor for winds, and more. If the same composers are to be recorded over and over this should be a more regular thing!
> 
> "Bach in musical box" is a charming one too. And the cello suites for Marimba!


Here are some imaginary ones I hope are not there

- Debussy's La cathédrale engloutie played on a pub piano
- Liszt's B minor sonata on a Rolf Harris Stylophone
- Adagio of Mahler's Ninth arranged for massed bagpipes


----------



## Guest

MoonlightSonata said:


> I was thinking of violist-composer as a parallel to pianist-composer. Since Beethoven, Mozart and Dvorak didn't write much for solo viola (I don't _think_.... if they did, that's wonderful!), they seem to me to be more composers who play the viola as well.


I love when performers give significant attention to their amazing instrument. Trombonist-composers Vinko Globokar and Christian Lindberg also come to mind


----------



## omega

The official announcement (in German & English)






*Edit:* I posted it in the wrong thread... Never mind!


----------



## Balthazar

I miss the Composer of the Month threads. It was a good exercise listening to so much of Bartók's and Reich's music in a short time span. And to do it with others. I don't know if I ever would have come across Lopez and Ablinger otherwise.


----------



## Albert7

Balthazar said:


> I miss the Composer of the Month threads. It was a good exercise listening to so much of Bartók's and Reich's music in a short time span. And to do it with others. I don't know if I ever would have come across Lopez and Ablinger otherwise.


I am thinking about doing this project to continue haydn man's project later on this fall. Are you in if I were to start it again?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Albert7 said:


> I am thinking about doing this project to continue haydn man's project later on this fall. Are you in if I were to start it again?


Yes, I would likely participate.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> Yes, I would likely participate.


Okay I will start it up for next month then.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Albert7 said:


> Okay I will start it up for next month then.


Which composers are you considering?


----------



## PeteW

This book was posted on TC some time ago and it's taken me a while to track it down and buy it. 
Whoever posted it, Thankyou - as I thought I would, am enjoying it very much.


----------



## Albert7

MoonlightSonata said:


> Which composers are you considering?


http://www.talkclassical.com/35327-composer-month-5.html

Most of the guys have been considered for next year. Nominate your composers you want in that thread.


----------



## Dim7

Even though I don't have a perfect pitch, sometimes hearing a single note (or one chord) can make me think of a melody that begins with that exact note/chord . Does this happen to other non-perfect pitch people?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I'm almost sure there was a thread about that, so yes and also the other way around.


----------



## Dim7

What do you mean "other way around"?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Yes, that happens to me fairly often.


----------



## Dim7

And to be clear I have checked several times on occasions like these that the note/chord is in fact the same note.


----------



## Weston

Yes that happens to me often. It's sometimes where my weird ear worms come from when I haven't even heard the piece for a long time. I've actually heard another piece with the same chord, or two or three note motif.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

RIP James Horner. He was one of my gateways into classical music.


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

Dim7 said:


> Even though I don't have a perfect pitch, sometimes hearing a single note (or one chord) can make me think of a melody that begins with that exact note/chord . Does this happen to other non-perfect pitch people?


Same here.



Clairvoyance Enough said:


> RIP James Horner. He was one of my gateways into classical music.


Wow, can't believe he died. He did a good job with Land Before Time, I thought. I love the cute part at 3:40.


----------



## Woodduck

Dim7 said:


> Even though I don't have a perfect pitch, sometimes hearing a single note (or one chord) can make me think of a melody that begins with that exact note/chord . Does this happen to other non-perfect pitch people?


Yes. ......................


----------



## Guest

Rather weirdly I can't give Likes on one particular terminal I sometimes have access to.

What's that all about? Do I need to do something like empty a cache, allow plug-ins or reboot my history?

(You may guess I'm an IT luddite)


----------



## Albert7

Summer has become too busy with home renovation. I prefer to sit down and listen to music all day long.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Is there such a thing as written polyphony? (that is: two or more lines of text ment to be read at the same time, not the literary metaphor of a multitude of stories that occur at the same time)


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

The next big thing in music is something scary. We have only got glimpses of it. It has to do with the inner workings of the brain. It follows no simple logic.

That is my prophesy.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Richannes Wrahms said:


> The next big thing in music is something scary. We have only got glimpses of it. It has to do with the inner workings of the brain. It follows no simple logic.
> 
> That is my prophesy.


I think you need the inner workings of your brain checked up if that's how you spell the word 'prophecy.' (prophesy is a verb)


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I'm sorry COAG, you are not the one.


----------



## senza sordino

A colleague of mine asked me to create a list of classical music to listen to on Spotify. He knows nothing about classical music, but he likes to listen to music. In the classroom, classical music can be much easier to work to than any pop music. It would be a playlist on Spotify. So I did. I couldn't narrow it down to a few pieces, I wrote a list of about 50 works from Bach to Barber, Vivaldi to Vaughan Williams. No singing, orchestral, chamber, concerti, symphonies, overtures etc.

I wrote this list on paper, and later in the day looked over his shoulder to see his Spotify play list. It was incomplete, and because of something that never occurred to me. In his list, he had only the first track from each piece. It never occurred to me that he didn't know a symphony usually had four movements, a concerto three etc. The Four Seasons had only the first movement of Spring. Beethoven's seventh symphony only the first movement etc. As he compiled his list, he only collected the first movement of each piece. I helped him fix that. 

We both learned something new that day. He learned that most symphonic music is comprised of multiple movements, and I learned that many new comers to classical music don't know the music is comprised of multiple movements.


----------



## Albert7

Summer and hope to catch more Baroque listening.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Winter and hope catch more 21st century listening.


----------



## Albert7

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Winter and hope catch more 21st century listening.


Winter is coming.


----------



## Blancrocher

It's pretty easy to free up space on a computer if you just arrange your files by size in the "Finder." I found lots of monsters I never knew I had. Other less obvious tips for trimming the fat are available if you ask google--but the obvious first step proved to be enough for my purposes.


----------



## DeepR

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Listening to Scriabin's Prometheus give me desire to go to a mountain and try to have contact with aliens.


I estimate I have listened to this piece >250 times by now. I also heard it live, twice. So I guess I am a fan.  I never had that kind of association, but it sure is otherworldly.


----------



## Albert7

Still thinking that musique concrete should have been called musique abstracte instead....


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Just the other day I was wondering why ketchup in the packets tastes better than ketchup in the bottle. Similarly, I wonder why all of my favorite symphonic moments in Mozart and Haydn happen in overtures and oratorio intros.


----------



## Albert7

Vilde Frang is underrated here... Need to balance that out.


----------



## Musicophile

Albert7 said:


> Vilde Frang is underrated here... Need to balance that out.


I've recently praised her on my blog: http://musicophilesblog.com/2015/06/24/vilde-frangs-amazing-version-of-sibelius-violin-concerto/


----------



## Albert7

Musicophile said:


> I've recently praised her on my blog: http://musicophilesblog.com/2015/06/24/vilde-frangs-amazing-version-of-sibelius-violin-concerto/


Thanks. I needed to know that I wasn't the only guy who enjoys her playing.


----------



## clavichorder

Sinfonietta Giocosa is a masterpiece. One of Martinu's top works. I realize this more now that I have stepped back from a fixation on some of his other works. Give it a listen and see if it doesn't intrigue.


----------



## Albert7

Reich's Clapping Song is one of the hardest pieces to try to perform.


----------



## Albert7

Playing Ives and Britten must be hypnotic to customers. I sold three ballet subscriptions today.


----------



## Albert7

Just got a fourth sale. Now I must blame Britten!


----------



## clavichorder

Music I've been listening to this summer, and the fresh perceptions that have come with it. This is the music that has hit me in the deepest way.

Its just interesting to reflect and compare to last summer. I haven't been doing absolutely nothing.

Shostakovich Symphonies 5, 9, 15
Later Mozart symphonies 
Dutilleux Cello Concerto, Symphonies 1 and 2,m Violin Concerto
and currently Nielsen Symphonies 3 and 4

along with some freshly heard Haydn symphonies and a new appreciation for Sinfonietta Giocosa by Martinu and Medtner's 1st piano sonata.


----------



## Guest

Yesterday I put the radio on in the car and it came on part way through a string quartet. I'd never heard it before but I liked it and was therefore interested to find out who the piece was by. I thought "I reckon this is Schubert" with an alarming amount of confidence. It turned out to be an unfinished string quartet by....Schubert!

Now this might not be impressive to YOU, dear reader, but I impressed myself :lol: considering not so long ago I wouldn't have known a Schubert from a sherbet.


Did he leave a lot unfinished? Was he basically just lazy???


Anyway I think he's gone on to my shopping list...


----------



## Weston

^I too play a kind of "name that tune" game, or at least "name the composer," when works come up at random on my iPod. Sometimes I get an unfair advantage knowing what is on the iPod since it only holds a fraction of my collection. It's still a satisfying mental exercise. Sometimes I'm waaaay off.

On a side note, I wonder why pop/rock is so much easier to identify than classical even before any vocals start. I can instantly recognize guitar tone or gestures within an arrangement far more easily than with a violin tone or piano touch. Still I do pretty well at classical.


----------



## Guest

Weston said:


> ^I too play a kind of "name that tune" game, or at least "name the composer," when works come up at random on my iPod. Sometimes I get an unfair advantage knowing what is on the iPod since it only holds a fraction of my collection. It's still a satisfying mental exercise. Sometimes I'm waaaay off.
> 
> On a side note, I wonder why pop/rock is so much easier to identify than classical even before any vocals start. I can instantly recognize guitar tone or gestures within an arrangement far more easily than with a violin tone or piano touch. Still I do pretty well at classical.


Perhaps it's a bit more individual/idiosyncratic in acoustic terms? I could recognise Hendrix from a snippet of tuning up!


----------



## Albert7

Wow that Gounod's Faust has a lot of bangers. However, the opera mixing with my migraine is a bad idea.


----------



## Bastian

Hi. Does anyone know anything about this box of Remastered Glenn Gould recordings? It's going to be released in September in UK.


----------



## Albert7

Wine is good for relaxing bit not conducive to listening projects.


----------



## Morimur

Albert7 said:


> Wine is good for relaxing bit not conducive to listening projects.


Why relax when you can go numb? Have some vodka, you sissy.


----------



## Albert7

Bastian said:


> Hi. Does anyone know anything about this box of Remastered Glenn Gould recordings? It's going to be released in September in UK.
> 
> View attachment 72733


I have the old version of this box set so I don't know whether this will sound better but who knows?


----------



## Bastian

Albert7 said:


> I have the old version of this box set so I don't know whether this will sound better but who knows?


Thank you, Albert. I only have a few recording of his (they generally sound good anyway), but I was wondering if it was worth investing in this. Meanwhile, I've found a thread dedicated to future releases and I've seen that someone else has posted about this already.


----------



## PierreN

Albert7 said:


> Reich's Clapping Song is one of the hardest pieces to try to perform.


Especially hard to perform is the transcription of Reich's Clapping Music for two left hands only by Zen Master Rama.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I think I stand by my opinion that opera does not lose very much when it is translated. For a year I've made efforts to see the other side of this argument, which is apparently that the alliteration of incomprehensible syllables trumps the dazzling immediacy of comprehension that a translation can provide, and that the sacrifice of this beautiful effect is faithful, the sacrifice of trite alliteration sacrilegious. It's insane to me.

I do not see how alliteration (or anything to do with the sound of syllables) adds anything substantial to music, especially when it isn't even there as is often the case, and I don't see how it is not _more_ in line with the composer's intent to actually perceive the words they've set to music as words set to music. There is more of the artist's original intent in such perception than in an infinite number of italian o's and z's flowing smoothly (and worthlessly this smoothness besides) together, at least to my ears.

Not to mention all those transitory sections of opera that are hybrids of song and recitative, and usually torturous, become enjoyable when granted their intended conversational flavor.


----------



## elgar's ghost

PierreN said:


> Especially hard to perform is the transcription of Reich's Clapping Music for two left hands only by Zen Master Rama.


That's nothing - try performing it while wearing steel gauntlets.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Not sure if this is the right place for this but there was a jolly play about Erik Satie on Radio 4 this afternoon.

(Sorry to those who can't get the BBC)


----------



## Albert7

Sunny day and now time for some Janacek when I get home later on this afternoon.


----------



## Weston

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I think I stand by my opinion that opera does not lose very much when it is translated. For a year I've made efforts to see the other side of this argument, which is apparently that the alliteration of incomprehensible syllables trumps the dazzling immediacy of comprehension that a translation can provide, and that the sacrifice of this beautiful effect is faithful, the sacrifice of trite alliteration sacrilegious. It's insane to me.


Others have probably said this, but I'm betting I need subtitles even for translated operas. It's the singing style. But I tend to agree. It's hard to imagine libretti as great peotry.


----------



## KenOC

Posted in another forum about King Frederick the Great and his musicians at Potsdam: "It is said that Quantz so severely criticized his pupil Frederick's playing that Frederick actually feared him. C.P.E. Bach once joked that Quantz' dog was the most terrifying beast on the planet, since it scared Mrs. Quantz; Mr. Quantz was afraid of her, and the King himself was afraid of Mr. Quantz."


----------



## Chris

Just had a reminder how long our current monarch has been around. I was listening to Elgar's Nursery Suite. The booklet told me Elgar himself conducted the first performance, which Princess Elizabeth attended. The Royal Box was so impressed with the movement called the Waggon that they stopped the performance and asked for it to be encored before the rest of the work could proceed. I suppose you can do things like that when you're royalty.


----------



## Albert7

Everything in music is quotation and re-appropriation.


----------



## Albert7

Delius put everyone here at sleep here at work. Oh well.


----------



## Weston

^He has that effect on me too.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Last night, was reading a Russian essay about Glazunov (which I translated into English), among hundreds other quotes, found this one:

"Music is an art, and art is forever. Music should not succumb to fashion, which is passing and forgotten."

Eureka! Now I know why he's so UNfashionable!


----------



## Chipomarc

I suppose for a very first time listen to Mahler's Fourth this version stripped down for a 14-piece chamber ensemble by Arnold Schoenberg's student Erwin Stein isn't the best way to go.


----------



## Albert7

Fascinating to chill out tonight to the sounds of nature.


----------



## Albert7

Upgrading to Windows 10 while listening to Bach is pure awesomeness!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

For some reason, I associate dogs with poverty.


----------



## Weston

What is the difference between a Radio Symphony Orchestra and a plain old Symphony Orchestra? Why do so many budget classical CDs feature Radio Symphony Orchestras?


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Schoenberg was a naughty guy.


----------



## Balthazar

I wish Henle Verlag would publish a single volume edition of Scriabin's piano sonatas...


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

If I could play with the birthdates of composers in an alternate universe, I think I'd push Handel and Vivaldi into the classical era, put Haydn into the Baroque era, and then, and I guess this one is cheating a little bit because it's completely unrelated to birthdates, but I'd have Wagner decide to write symphonies instead of operas. I'm tempted to push Bach forward a bit so he can write for the piano, and to put Mozart in the baroque era too, but of course they have to stay where they are.


----------



## Guest

Just got a local theatre programme....There's a string trio booked and their programme includes Kurtag's Signs, Games and Messages. WOOT!


----------



## Dr Johnson

When I first heard the Scherzo of Bruckner's 8th symphony (Tintner, Naxos) I thought of John Barry.

Also, but totally unrelated to the above, I consider that the conventional wine bottle of 75cl is inadequate for an evening's quaffing, whereas 150cl is often too much.


----------



## Taggart

All the Windows 10 stuff has gone here - http://www.talkclassical.com/18277-computer-talk.html


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Today I continued my search for contemporary classical music that does not consist of surreal screeching (usually violins), minimalism, or stuff that sounds like it was written years ago anyway. I am not trying to criticize music that sounds like these things. I am not saying that all or even most contemporary music sounds like these things, because I have no idea. And I am not saying that my search would be considered thorough by anyone but me. But I am saying that I have not found anything that does not sound like one of those three, and that I'm pretty sure this same post phrased as a request in a new thread would quickly collapse into an inflammatory argument.

Maybe there'd be a 4th category for weird electronic or otherwise weird sounds that I either find interesting for one listen only or find too long to listen to in the first place. I can say that my craving for new sounds is making me more tolerant for such things as time goes on.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

^ Messiaen's Eclairs was the first modern piece I really fell in love with, so maybe you might get something out of it.


----------



## Barbebleu

brianvds said:


> I didn't even know he wrote a cello sonata. Not too clued up about Grieg.
> 
> Anyway, I akm still waiting for the discovery of the Mahler guitar concerto, and the Brahms recorder concerto...


Not to mention the Beethoven Double Concerto for Banjo and Accordion.

Maybe that can be a new thread. Stuff we wish had been composed by the great composers.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Doesn't it happen that when you listen to mediocre music, for just a few breef moments you suddenly submerge in the aesthetics of its era and the piece makes sense and then this knowledge dissolves and you again hear how outdated it is?


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I have finished a binge of every cantata by Bach. I omitted recitatives and only gave things about a minute and a quick skim to interest me before moving on, and I ended up with a list of about 50 things I'd like to revisit. 

The vast majority of the arias still sound to me like tuneless meandering over a certain kind of buoyant and frivolous skipping rhythm that Bach always seems to fall back on in the middle; I'm not saying it's bad, but I never like those. But for every 4 or 5 cantatas there would be at least one very exciting aria with a unique rhythm. The choruses are much more consistent. 

I was hoping to increase my interest in Bach's religious music (still not a huge fan of the Mass or Matthew) but I'd say I made a lateral move. I'm still team Handel when it comes to this kind of stuff, especially if I include his operas. I've heard Bach arias I like as much, but never one I found as melodic as Handel's Da tempeste il legno infranto or others.


----------



## Dr Johnson

I like this quote I came across the other day. 

Apparently someone said that Vaughn Williams always dressed "as though stalking the folk song to its lair."


----------



## ArtMusic

Why do modernism stage directors like to make their opera staging difficult to understand as far as the plot is concerned? Too much symbolism (or whatever it is), minimalism or extreme irrelevance to the original plot of the drama just distracts the story, the characters' emotions and overall characterization.


----------



## haydnfan

I'm struggling with big boxes again. Every time I say I'm going to buy and listen to individual recordings, I find myself seduced by these bargain box sets that are flooding the market. Well now it's come to a head, because my shelf is full!


----------



## Queen of the Nerds

On Netflix, I just found an opera-themed episode of _Cupcake Wars_. How cool is _that_?


----------



## ArtMusic

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I have finished a binge of every cantata by Bach. I omitted recitatives and only gave things about a minute and a quick skim to interest me before moving on, and I ended up with a list of about 50 things I'd like to revisit.
> 
> The vast majority of the arias still sound to me like tuneless meandering over a certain kind of buoyant and frivolous skipping rhythm that Bach always seems to fall back on in the middle; I'm not saying it's bad, but I never like those. But for every 4 or 5 cantatas there would be at least one very exciting aria with a unique rhythm. The choruses are much more consistent.
> 
> I was hoping to increase my interest in Bach's religious music (still not a huge fan of the Mass or Matthew) but I'd say I made a lateral move. I'm still team Handel when it comes to this kind of stuff, especially if I include his operas. I've heard Bach arias I like as much, but never one I found as melodic as Handel's Da tempeste il legno infranto or others.


That's because Handel was a naturally gifted vocal melody composer whereas Bach relied more on instrumental idioms to get his craft done (fugues and counterpoint in particular).


----------



## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> That's because Handel was a naturally gifted vocal melody composer whereas Bach relied more on instrumental idioms to get his craft done (fugues and counterpoint in particular).


What if I told you that the art of counterpoint, including imitative counterpoint such as fugues, developed out of vocal music...?

(It's true.)


----------



## Chris

This morning's paper had a letter about the remake of the 1955 film The Dam Busters, which was about the RAF attacks on the Mohne and Edersee dams in 1943. The letter writer knew Barnes Wallis and wrote a book on the raids. Referring to the 1955 film, he writes:

'Composer Eric Coates had been approached to write the whole score, but was advised not to by Sir Edward Elgar [d.1934]'

How creepy is that?


----------



## Guest

I think I may be addicted to microtones.


----------



## Dim7

dogen said:


> I think I may be addicted to microtones.


It's a good thing that you admit that you have a problem; it's the first step towards recovery. There's therapy for your kind of people; before long you will feel healthy revulsion towards microtones and be content with listening nothing but Twinkle Twinkle Little Star over and over again.


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> It's a good thing that you admit that you have a problem; it's a first step towards recovery. There's therapy for your kind of people; before long you will feel healthy revulsion towards microtones and be content with listening nothing but Twinkle Twinkle Little Star over and over again.


Yes I was brave but I knew acknowledgment was the first step.

My name is dogen and I am a microtonic.


----------



## Weston

I wonder why all Naxos CD catalog numbers begin with 8.5----, but all Marco Polos begin with 8.2 ----. 

It's got to mean something.


----------



## Woodduck

Dim7 said:


> It's a good thing that you admit that you have a problem; it's the first step towards recovery. There's therapy for your kind of people; before long you will feel healthy revulsion towards microtones and be content with listening nothing but Twinkle Twinkle Little Star over and over again.


The way I remember that from kindergarten it had microtones. I think Bobbie Horton was especially good at them.


----------



## Dim7

Woodduck said:


> The way I remember that from kindergarten it had microtones. I think Bobbie Horton was especially good at them.


You were once kindergarten age??  I.... am shocked....


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

This is a commentary I read about Shostakovich's Cello Concerto no. 1 and Violin Concerto no. 1: _This music gave an anxious feeling. This music is not to heard it in the car, it make you feel something is going to happend._


----------



## KenOC

I think DSCH's cello concerto is great car listening. The violin concerto, maybe not.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

KenOC said:


> I think DSCH's cello concerto is great car listening. The violin concerto, maybe not.


It would be cool drive while hearing the first movement from Shosty's 1st Cello Concerto.


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

Lately I've been listening to Liszt's Tone Poems, in large part because I tend to avoid what is too commonly listened to, in part because I genuinely like Liszt in the general sense, in part because I reserve no priority for so-called 'absolute music', in part because they are really interesting even if they require patience or are cliche, cheesy, tasteless, or whatever. Here's some of my impressions:

Mountain Symphony - this is a long one but is an attractive piece of music. It creates suspense, atmosphere and drama, the orchestration is worth attending to (there are some very powerful effects), but unfortunately I don't know the story behind it so I can't say much about that.

Prometheus - One of the more famous ones, which is funny because it's something Liszt cobbled together from music from a previous work that had a chorus (apparently). The astonishing quartal harmony at the beginning really gets your attention and it's easy to imagine Prometheus' flight from the wrath of Zeus or whomever. The sensitive, sentimental romantic theme that appears in the middle and towards the end is one of the best ideas I can find in Romantic Era music. Overall I felt I was able to construct a narrative quite easily with this one.

Mazeppa - This work is a pile of junk, IMO. It was better as a piano piece and even then it is hardly his best. The orchestration can be quite interesting and dense but I admit I don't even understand what he was thinking harmonically some of the time.

Orpheus - This might be overall the best one I've listened to. It's got one of the best love themes I've ever heard, even if it sounds super-cliche. There is nothing I would call tasteless about this one, it has beauty and novelty.

Hunnenschlacht - Some really nice orchestral effects and the gregorian chant theme is a really nice touch. Cheesy in parts but that goes for all of them I've listened to save Orpheus, whose cheesiness is just too beautiful to criticize.

Les Preludes - I guess there is a reason this one is the most famous, it's pretty stirring.


----------



## Guest

The SACD box set I ordered has just turned up, my first SACD. It plays fine on my CD player so whoop!
Now I just need to trawl the NEOS back catalogue....

Mmmmmmm Haas......


----------



## DavidA

Just read that Karl Bohm found the covered orchestra pit at Bayreuth so hot that he conducted with his feet in two bowls of cold water!


----------



## Cosmos

Listened to Robert Schumann's first symphony today. I'm not that big on Schumann's symphonies, and this one is no exception. It has a glorious and energetic, youthful first movement. But the rest falls flat for me


----------



## Sloe

Cosmos said:


> Listened to Robert Schumann's first symphony today. I'm not that big on Schumann's symphonies, and this one is no exception. It has a glorious and energetic, youthful first movement. But the rest falls flat for me


I like all of Schummanns symphonies. The first one is played rather often I agree that the first movement is the best but the rest of it is also nice.


----------



## Becca

After XX years I finally got around to cataloging my CD collection and found a neat piece of freeware software to do it. Naturally it wasn't set up to do classical music but a few tweaks were all it took. What is a shock is how long it took me to get through the Bs ... and I have very few Bach discs! A further shock was in entering my Klemperer Bruckner 8th and discovering that it also contains his recording of Wotan's closing monologue and Magic Fire Music from act 3 of Walkure with Norman Bailey. Why a shock? Because earlier this year I got onto Spotify and discovered it there and I never knew it despite having it in my collection for a long time! Shows how often I pull out that set. (FWIW, when I play the 8th, it is usually the Barbirolli/Halle live recording from 1970).


----------



## Becca

Cosmos said:


> Listened to Robert Schumann's first symphony today. I'm not that big on Schumann's symphonies, and this one is no exception. It has a glorious and energetic, youthful first movement. But the rest falls flat for me


Listen to his _Overture, Scherzo & Finale_, essentially an incomplete symphony but a totally delightful and infectious piece.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

These people saying that they can detect "homosexual music" (e.g. Schubert) - why not put this to the test? Show them samples of music from composers of different sexualities and see if they can really tell the difference.


----------



## Guest

MoonlightSonata said:


> These people saying that they can detect "homosexual music" (e.g. Schubert) - why not put this to the test? Show them samples of music from composers of different sexualities and see if they can really tell the difference.


Was the composer of 4'33" asexual?


----------



## Dim7

It turns out I can rate my own threads.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Dim7 said:


> It turns out I can rate my own threads.


But of course, on a forum such as this one nobody would _dream_ of doing such a thing....


----------



## Guest

You never see James Dillon and Tony Iommi in the same room do you?


----------



## DavidA

Note that Dame Fanny is standing down as head of Leeds Piano Competition. She's only 95 remember! Is this early retirement?

http://slippedisc.com/2015/08/leeds-piano-competition-changes-hands/


----------



## Weston

dogen said:


> You never see James Dillon and Tony Iommi in the same room do you?


 Are you saying they look alike -- or sound alike?

Now that you mention it, I suppose I do see a vague resemblance if you mean James Dillon the composer.


----------



## Autocrat

Anatoly Lyadov, _The Enchanted Lake_. I have this as filler on Pappano's Rach Symphony #2 recording. It sounds just like you would expect an Enchanted Lake to sound if it were transformed into music. It is as near-perfect a musical presentation of an Enchanted Lake as you would be likely to find anywhere, at any time.

However, this means that it is only going to be of real interest to those who have a predilection for Enchanted Lakes. Somewhat self-stultifying unfortunately.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I'm going to make a playlist of baroque works for violin in E major and see if committed listening will heighten my opinion of Bach's E major violin partita, which I like a lot but don't love. Maybe something in my brain will get adjusted, but I've tried something similar before and it didn't work.

I know nothing about playing the piano, but one time I learned the keys for E major and then all of the notes that made up a certain melody; I can't remember what it was, something by Mozart. Anyway I fiddled around within that set of keys, playing random notes and chords, changing the melody slightly, and I didn't find any of the sounds moving or interesting at all. I tried other Keys like G major and B minor and others, and it was hard for me to make a sound that I _didn't _like. It was strange to me that I could even have preferences at such a broad level; I tried this with several pieces I felt indifferent to, and I still feel indifferent to all of them.

I often wonder how much the shifts in our taste that happen over time actually have to do with time versus how much new music we've absorbed. For the better part of a year I didn't listen to anything new and I also seemed to experience fewer ah-HA moments.


----------



## Dim7

Random thoughts? Polka gorillas debating the merits of Keynesian economics. Jesus fighting umbrellas with onomatopoeia. Orwellian gnomes trying to not cook Continental philosophers.

If that wasn't enough, here's some more.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Dim7 said:


> ... gorillas debating the merits of Keynesian economics ...


";D" 
eeeeeeevilfiller


----------



## Eramirez156

Albert7 said:


> Delius put everyone here at sleep here at work. Oh well.


_Dull, _*Duller, * *Delius*


----------



## Dr Johnson

Whither the crumhorn? Yesterday's instruments today: towards an understanding of the semiotics of instrumental obsolescence and gender bias in early modern ensemble music making.

Oh dear! I meant to put this here.


----------



## Medtnaculus

Suddenly addicted to Stanchinsky. Considering what he created in his rather tragically short life is astounding. I'd love to imagine what he could have created had he not had such mental issues and actually lived beyond 26. His second piano sonata is outstanding and the dark charismatic nature of his work is so enticing. 

Also discovered Roy Agnew, only listened to his sonata ballade but it's utterly outstanding. You can immediately feel the deep influence of Scriabin. Really wish more of his works were recorded and available on Spotify.


----------



## Weston

It is bizarre to get a like for a post I made 5 years ago that I now no longer fully agree with.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Weston said:


> It is bizarre to get a like for a post I made 5 years ago that I now no longer fully agree with.


It would be even more bizarre if I got a like from a post I made five years ago.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've had my first experience with Monteverdi. Nisi Dominus a 10 is the funkiest and most hip-swingin' thing I've heard in a long time.


----------



## Dim7

Weston said:


> It is bizarre to get a like for a post I made 5 years ago that I now no longer fully agree with.


I'm usually hesitant to like older posts. It feels weird for some reason.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

............


----------



## Piwikiwi

Eramirez156 said:


> _Dull, _*Duller, * *Delius*


Dumb, dumber, drummer


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Richannes Wrahms said:


> View attachment 74056
> 
> 
> ............


See more of what?


----------



## ptr

Simply fabulous! 17 minutes of intense bliss!






Wolfgang Rihm: Schwarzer und roter Tanz (World Premiere, Chailly, 1985)

/ptr


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I don't think Bach is overrated, but when I get mad at his music I like to read threads by people who think he is. This habit just led me to the discovery of Jan Dismas Zelenka, and I'm astonished that his name isn't even listed in the scroll that appears if you google "Baroque Era Composers." To my ears he is not just good for a composer with an obscure name, he is effing great, like should-at-least-be-listed-by-Telemann great. I'm not an expert though.


----------



## Weston

I like Zelenka, but I'm curious how one gets mad at Bach's music.^


----------



## Cosmos

Discovered this piece: Handel's Chaconne in G Major for harpsichord






I've fallen in love! It's so bright, refreshing, full of life! I feel like sitting back with a cup of coffee


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've always ignored Bach's organ works for a reason I don't really know, maybe because they don't seem to receive as much discussion as the partitas and suites. I like the Fantasia and Fugue in G minor more than any of the harpsichord works though, so I will quickly remedy this.

I've also always ignored Handel's keyboard music for fear it would be disappointing, but that Chaconne has changed my mind. I know all the great baroque composers had their own distinct voices, but Handel's always seems to me twice as apparent and unique as all the others, the one I love the most for his specific sound and force of personality even before the actual quality of the music.


----------



## Winged Wolf

I recently listened to Brahms's 1st Symphony for the first time. That intro is awesome and, considering that Bulow called it "Beethoven's Tenth," gave me the impression that the intro was saying "Make way for the new symphonic master." Or something like that.

It also makes no sense considering that, according to a timeline of symphonies I found, between Beethoven 9 and Brahms 1 we have Schubert 9, Mendelssohn's last 3 symphonies, Tchaikovsky's first 3, Bruckner's first few symphonies, and Liszt's 2 program symphonies among others.


----------



## Weston

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I've also always ignored Handel's keyboard music for fear it would be disappointing,


You will not likely be disappointed. I think it is just that Handel's oratorios and operas have overshadowed his great keyboard output. His keyboard suites are awesome. I especially enjoy the gigue finales. They are quite distinct from those of Bach.


----------



## EdwardBast

Winged Wolf said:


> I recently listened to Brahms's 1st Symphony for the first time. That intro is awesome and, considering that Bulow called it "Beethoven's Tenth," gave me the impression that the intro was saying "Make way for the new symphonic master." Or something like that.
> 
> It also makes no sense considering that, according to a timeline of symphonies I found, between Beethoven 9 and Brahms 1 we have Schubert 9, Mendelssohn's last 3 symphonies, Tchaikovsky's first 3, Bruckner's first few symphonies, and Liszt's 2 program symphonies among others.


The "Beethoven's Tenth" is likely inspired by the obvious similarity of a theme in Brahms's finale to the "Ode to Joy" theme. At least, that's how I take it.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I'm sure there's a secret society somewhere in which communication is done entirely via singing of Wagnerian motifs.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I thank a classical-loving friend for this discovery.

http://games.usvsth3m.com/dance-dance-revolution-1812-overture-edition/

You're welcome. :tiphat:


----------



## trazom

Just thinking how much nicer it would be if people would drop the unnecessary "IMO" every time they post something with their opinion. IMO


----------



## Weston

^I agree. These abbreviations just slow down my reading comprehension, though I understand if one is using the thumb and a cell phone. 

I use the term "for me" instead to distinguish my fanboy ramblings from scholarship or facts. "For me Mozart's reuse of the same musical gestures can be irritating."


----------



## Winged Wolf

Random thought: I wonder if any musicians here have been "the hammer guy" for Mahler 6 or "the cannon guy" for the 1812 overture.


----------



## violadude

Winged Wolf said:


> Random thought: I wonder if any musicians here have been "the hammer guy" for Mahler 6 or "the cannon guy" for the 1812 overture.


No, but I was the "rattle a pencil between the strings on my viola" guy once.


----------



## MrTortoise

violadude said:


> No, but I was the "rattle a pencil between the strings on my viola" guy once.


As long as you are not the 'take 2 minutes to open the cellophane wrapped candy and then play with the wrapper during the rest of the movement' guy.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I have a burning and totally unrealistic desire to have every single piece that I like transcribed for the human voice(s). Bach's cello suites specifically inspired this random thought, probably because I wish Bach had written more arias that sound like this one, with those long cruising melodic lines, but I don't know what you call it really.

Ich will nur dir zu Ehren leben, from Christmas Oratorio


----------



## KenOC

CPE Bach's vocal transcription of Daddy's final contrapunctus from the AoF. Beautiful.


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

I've been listening to interpretations of Jeux d'eau and some people play passages with fluctuating dynamics and tempo, where I think the music is rather like clockwork and not an emotional, beethovinian statement. Also, a lot of people play it too fast. The best recording I have is also the least fast, but easily sounds the best.


----------



## Balthazar

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I've been listening to interpretations of Jeux d'eau and some people play passages with fluctuating dynamics and tempo, where I think the music is rather like clockwork and not an emotional, beethovinian statement. Also, a lot of people play it too fast. The best recording I have is also the least fast, but easily sounds the best.


Would you mind sharing your favorite interpretations? I know you know your Ravel!


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

Balthazar said:


> Would you mind sharing your favorite interpretations? I know you know your Ravel!


It's a difficult piece because it actually encompasses a lot - an intense evocation of natural beauty, a lot of nobility and equanimity, as well as visceral moments, maybe even some emotion.

It sounds cliche or uninteresting to say but some of the best ones are the French pianists....pascal roge in one of his slower tempo ones that are 6 minutes or so (some of his recordings are too fast, I wonder if it was even him playing to be honest). Anne queffelec's is great and her sound somehow conveys an exotic novelty.

But I think perlemuter plays in a perfectly restrained fashion for this piece.

Most of your great pianists play it too fast and some (argerich) play parts of it like it was meant to be listened to the same way a romantic composer is - I haven't even listened to richter's after I saw the duration, under 5 minutes seems like way too fast.


----------



## Winged Wolf

I wonder why Sweden doesn't really have a famous nationalistic composer. Like, Norway has Grieg, Finland has Sibelius, and the country between the two has... err... I don't know to be honest. Looking up Swedish composers on wikipedia doesn't show me any instantly recognizable names (which isn't saying much on my part to be fair).


----------



## Sloe

Winged Wolf said:


> I wonder why Sweden doesn't really have a famous nationalistic composer. Like, Norway has Grieg, Finland has Sibelius, and the country between the two has... err... I don't know to be honest. Looking up Swedish composers on wikipedia doesn't show me any instantly recognizable names (which isn't saying much on my part to be fair).


Because you don´t listen to Swedish composers.
Most people in Sweden can´t mention an American composer.


----------



## Weston

Most people have heard of Stenhammar. Haven't they?

And lately (that is within the last decade or so) I've heard of Kraus, the Swedish Mozart, and Atterberg and Alfven and Larsson and Pettersson. There are plenty.


----------



## Sloe

Weston said:


> Most people have heard of Stenhammar. Haven't they?
> 
> And lately (that is within the last decade or so) I've heard of Kraus, the Swedish Mozart, and Atterberg and Alfven and Larsson and Pettersson. There are plenty.


Peterson-Berger, Rangström, Wirén and Berwald.


----------



## Weston

Oops! I forgot Berwald, one of my favorites.


----------



## crimbo

Random thought - a lot of classical labels besides naxos are somewhat venturing outside the usual repertoire and I was wondering if, on these albums of obscure composers, do these record labels and artists even make any money on them. Of course they sell since I bought them and there are many people like myself who are interested in obscurity, but are there enough of us to make sense financially? Or is mostly for the sake and pride of going where others don't and hoping to break even.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Today I went to see a theatrical adaptation of Kafka's The Trial. For this adaptation it was used parts of Schoenberg Three Piano Pieces and Violin Concerto. Schoenberg and Kafka make a perfect combo.


----------



## TwoPhotons

I wonder whether Stravinsky was inspired in any way by the ending of Strauss' "Elektra" in writing his "Le sacre du printemps".


----------



## hpowders

trazom said:


> Just thinking how much nicer it would be if people would drop the unnecessary "IMO" every time they post something with their opinion. IMO


Almost as bad as hearing the expression "going forward".


----------



## hpowders

Last night I was forced to watch the movie "Cake" with a vulgar, obnoxious Jennifer Aniston.

Several times she stated that she loved watching the ballet "The Nutcracker Suite" and this just drove me up a wall.

Typical Hollywood musical ignorance! Doesn't anybody proofread these scripts?


----------



## Dim7

The word "kudos" sounds stupid.

Ditto for "ditto".

No offence intended for anyone who has ever used those words.


----------



## Tristan

The main theme of the Adagietto from Poulenc's "Les Biches" bears a striking resemblence to one of the main themes of Franck's Symphony in D minor.

Compare 0:13-0:18 of: 



 to 6:30-6:35 of: 




I don't know, I notice a similarity  And while listening to Les Biches, I kept thinking about Franck's Symphony.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dim7 said:


> You were once kindergarten age??  I.... am shocked....


Yeah, when Woodduck was only just out of diapers and started Kindergarten two years early, the entire Second Viennese School was looking up to him and calling him 'professor.'

Actually, I believe the term they used was: "Herr HERR Doktor Woodduck"- or something like that.


----------



## Dim7

Atonal atonal atonal tonal modal atonal atonal tonal atonal tonal


----------



## Dim7

Winged Wolf said:


> I wonder why Sweden doesn't really have a famous nationalistic composer. Like, Norway has Grieg, Finland has Sibelius, and the country between the two has... err... I don't know to be honest. Looking up Swedish composers on wikipedia doesn't show me any instantly recognizable names (which isn't saying much on my part to be fair).










..........................


----------



## tdc

Although I like all 3 movements, I think I might be the only person in the world that prefers the outer movements to the middle movement in Bach's Concerto for Two Violins.


----------



## Dim7

tdc said:


> Although I like all 3 movements, I think I might be the only person in the world that prefers the outer movements to the middle movement in Bach's Concerto for Two Violins.


Nah, don't think you are so special, I prefer them them over the middle movement too.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Don't either of you think you're special, because I do as well!

It's not that I don't like slow movements, it's just that the skip button is always _right there_ and I'm always still pumped from the first movement. There are adagios I've heard maybe 2 or 3 times in pieces I've listened to 100 times.


----------



## Chipomarc

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> Don't either of you think you're special, because I do as well!
> 
> It's not that I don't like slow movements, it's just that the skip button is always _right there_ and I'm always still pumped from the first movement. There are adagios I've heard maybe 2 or 3 times in pieces I've listened to 100 times.


I'm the opposite, no matter how many times I've heard the Largo from the Spring section of Vivaldi's Four Seasons it still scores big with me.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Well I completed watching this biographical movie about Rimsky-Korsakov. I knew it would keel me over....... >_< I also laughed my head off multiple times.

No English Subtitles unfortunately, but it's clear what's happening most of the time (not to mention my extended knowledge). Names of people and works are clear enough to hear.





Even though I can basically guess what's being talked about... I still want to see the captions... SO MUCH *pounds head on desk*


----------



## Becca

This morning I had to contact our local electricity utility and, as always, I ended up on hold for about 15 minutes ... but ... miracle of miracles ... they were playing chamber music in the background! And quite a variety also, including at least one baroque cello suite (not sure which one). I had to call back later and it was the same.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Isn't it curious that earlier versions of Boulez' compositions tend to be significantly less dissonant than later versions?


----------



## violadude

I'm feeling really overwhelmed. The more music I collect/listen to, the more music I realize I have yet to collect/listen to.


----------



## Faustian

violadude said:


> I'm feeling really overwhelmed. The more music I collect/listen to, the more music I realize I have yet to collect/listen to.


"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music." -- Rachmaninoff


----------



## violadude

Faustian said:


> "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music." -- Rachmaninoff


Great quote, and so true, unfortunately.

On the other hand, I hear they are working on longevity pills...or something like that.


----------



## Dim7

What's with this passive-aggressive one-star rating of totally harmless threads? :notoutrightmadbutmildlyirritatedface: And I'm not talking about my stupid joke threads here...


----------



## Cosmos

Hummel's Piano Quintet in Eb minor

Inspired Schubert's "Trout" Quintet [with the same instrumentation of piano violin viola cello and bass], it has an early Beethoven feel to it. Lovely moments


----------



## Winged Wolf

Um, according to The Guardian, the manuscript of a lost early Stravinsky work has apparently turned up. Here

EDIT: Ah... I forgot there was a news forum elsewhere on the site for stuff like this. Still new here. Oops.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I like how Bach's cello suites progress through these long, fluid lines that always seem to soar and stretch, without breaking, or at least seeming not to break because of the timbre, for longer than I expect them to. It's a quality I can't really find in any other chamber music; every string quartet I listen to now sounds sort of choppy and square for lacking those extended and curvaceous melodies that I like so much in the suites, which I'm starting to like a lot more than any string quartet I've heard.

And maybe it's that "polyphony for a single instrument" technique, which used to confuse and irritate me, that now gives them this erratic and unpredictable flavor that I find irresistible and also absent in most other things, even late Beethoven or Janacek or other quartets I've heard described with those two words.


----------



## TradeMark

I hate ELP! When ever I try to listen to Janacek's Sinfonietta, I'm reminded of them.


----------



## Weston

TradeMark said:


> I hate ELP! When ever I try to listen to Janacek's Sinfonietta, I'm reminded of them.


So am I. Sorry that you find this a bad thing.


----------



## Weston

When my iThing ran out of juice at work yesterday morning, I knew I couldn't make it through the day with whatever ear worm was about to lodge itself into my vulnerable cranium. So I plugged the headphones into the office laptop and streamed a classical station out of Boston.

Once again I was horrified at how light, fluffy, saccharine and "pops" sounding their playlist seemed. (Arthur Sullivan, light Vivaldi, von Suppe -- that sort of thing). When people are put off by classical or think it is "relaxing," is it because they are mostly exposed to this baby food predigested mush? We need to ween the populace off of that. 

I know I had the same reaction to pop or non-classical music way back in the day when I was a young classical snob in the 1960s. I only heard Herman's Hermits, surf music, The Osmonds, and other teeny-bop light pop on the radio, and thus I assumed all non-classical was tripe. Eventually I discovered progressive rock that opinion changed forever, but I wonder if the reverse is true -- that the perception of classical is warped by radio play. 

We should be open minded about all genres and know we are usually exposed only to the lowest common denominator unless we dig deeper.


----------



## haydnfan

I'm embarrassed by how many cds I've bought lately, so I never post on the purchases thread!


----------



## Rehydration

I'm trying to find my choice recording of the Bach Mass by listening to 60-second samples, and I think I've become an addict to the Christi eleison.

Also, is it just me or is Kapustin a Debussy version of jazz?


----------



## bharbeke

I chanced across a YouTube video of Bernstein talking about Shostakovich's 9th symphony. It was a great introduction and discussion of the work. Are there other videos like this with Bernstein or other great presenters that you have seen? This uploader had Shostakovich's 6th and 9th only in the series.


----------



## ptr

I was proofreading a chapter in a book a musician friend is writing about his long life as a symphony orchestra member, anyway, a random interesting fact I found intriguing: In 1920 my friend writes, the Swedish conductor Tor Mann hired Berliner Philharmoniker for a public concert, it cost him 800 Swedish Kronor (paid by a private sponsor), that would be about $2.500 US in today's money. This venture led to him being hired for several concerts with the BPO, in Vienna, Dresden and in Prague. (BTW, Mann was in Berlin to study conducting with Richard Strauss and Arthur Nikisch (Quite the pedigree)).
Mann is a sorely underrated Kapellmeister type that did not conduct that much outside of Scandinavia, his interpretation of Nielsen and Sibelius is legendary with aficionados, he wrote a book on interpretation of Sibelius Symphonies!

My friend also writes that Herbert von Karajan conducted several concerts in Sweden in 1937, for his two concerts on Göteborg he got paid (also) 800 Swedish Kronor (today $2.850, Try to hire a top tier young conductor for that today!), unfortunately my friend don't write anything about what was performed during Karajan's stay. but he go on writing that Karajan was in Stockholm during his Swedish round trip, where he got an offer to become the new Kapellmeister of the Swedish Radio Orchestra, Karajan declined as he had more urging things to deal with at home in Germany... 

/ptr


----------



## Sloe

ptr said:


> I was proofreading a chapter in a book a musician friend is writing about his long life as a symphony orchestra member, anyway, a random interesting fact I found intriguing: In 1920 my friend writes, the Swedish conductor Tor Mann hired Berliner Philharmoniker for a public concert, it cost him 800 Swedish Kronor (paid by a private sponsor), that would be about $2.500 US in today's money. This venture led to him being hired for several concerts with the BPO, in Vienna, Dresden and in Prague. (BTW, Mann was in Berlin to study conducting with Richard Strauss and Arthur Nikisch (Quite the pedigree)).
> Mann is a sorely underrated Kapellmeister type that did not conduct that much outside of Scandinavia, his interpretation of Nielsen and Sibelius is legendary with aficionados, he wrote a book on interpretation of Sibelius Symphonies!
> 
> My friend also writes that Herbert von Karajan conducted several concerts in Sweden in 1937, for his two concerts on Göteborg he got paid (also) 800 Swedish Kronor (today $2.850, Try to hire a top tier young conductor for that today!), unfortunately my friend don't write anything about what was performed during Karajan's stay. but he go on writing that Karajan was in Stockholm during his Swedish round trip, where he got an offer to become the new Kapellmeister of the Swedish Radio Orchestra, Karajan declined as he had more urging things to deal with at home in Germany...
> 
> /ptr


An annual salary was at that time between 2000-4000 kronor so 800 kronor was a lot of money.


----------



## GhenghisKhan

Mark Twain said:


> I have never heard enough classical music to be able to enjoy it; & the simple truth is, I detest it. Not mildly, but will all my heart. To me an opera is the very climax & cap-stone of the absurd, the fantastic the unjustifiable. I hate the very name of opera - partly because of the nights of suffering I have endured in its presence, & partly because I want to love it and can't. I suppose one naturally hates the things he wants to love & can't. In America the opera is an affectation. The seeming love for [it] is a lie. Nine out of every ten of the males are bored by it & 5 out of 10 women. Yet how they applaud, the ignorant liars! -
> What a poor lot we human beings are, anyway. If base music gives me wings, why should I want any other? But I do. I want to like the higher music because the higher & better like it. But you see, I want to like it without taking the necessary trouble & giving the thing the necessary amount of time & attention. The natural suggestion is, to get into that upper tier, that dress circle, by a lie: we will pretend we like it. This lie, this pretense, gives to opera what support it has in America.
> - Notebook # 15, July - August 1878


Mark Twain had this to say about Classical, even in his times there were hipsters.

Which mean we must set up concentration camps immediately. Procrastination allowed hipsters to reproduce and procreate into the 21st century. We must stop their proliferation before they reach the 22nd. No Pasaran!


----------



## Dim7

Mahler and Schoenberg are OK I guess.

Atonality is not a 100% objective property of music, but it can be a useful concept in some contexts.

Shostakovich is great, one of my favorites but not my absolute favorite.

Anti-modernists have some good points, but some modern stuff is fairly decent as well.


----------



## isorhythm

Mingus was the Mahler of jazz.


----------



## Dr Johnson

isorhythm said:


> Mingus was the Mahler of jazz.


They both had ferocious tempers.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Escher??


----------



## haydnfan

I'm discovering that jazz is awesome, and I should have gotten into it sooner.


----------



## clavichorder

Carl Nielsen is the composer I think and feel the most about these days. I must seem really phase oriented to a lot of the posters here on talkclassical. I just knew before I got into him, that he was going to be big for me some day.


----------



## Weston

^Actually I think binge listening is the best way to go to really appreciate someone's idiom. I used to listen in phases, but lately I don't seem to have the discipline.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Found a nice web on medieval stuff http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/


----------



## haydnfan

Weston said:


> ^Actually I think binge listening is the best way to go to really appreciate someone's idiom. I used to listen in phases, but lately I don't seem to have the discipline.


I used to be into repeatedly relistening to something new to me, but honestly I think I don't work that way anymore. I just need to listen to a wide variety. Want to really get into Bach? Hit the cantatas, keyboard works, organ, chamber etc. just keep going. How they relate to each other illuminates them in comparison and contrast. Hit Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Handel, Telemann, etc. they all illuminate each other. As an example.


----------



## bharbeke

There is an episode of the cartoon show Arthur called "Binky's Music Madness" where various characters learn to love atonal music.


----------



## Chris

Radio 3 has just played Mladi, a wind sextet by Janacek. The announcer said the first performance was not a success, partly because the clarinettist had a faulty instrument and 'had to mime'. For a few moments I thought he had attempted to do an impression of a clarinet and so do his part vocally, which I would love to have witnessed. But I suppose it more likely means he operated the keys but only pretended to blow down the tube. 

I think the former would have been doable. It's many years ago but I half remember an orchestra, or maybe brass band, made up of people imitating their instruments, using just their mouths I hope.


----------



## bharbeke

How do you not know your instrument is faulty in time to get a temporary replacement instrument? That seems like something a professional musician should be ready and able to deal with.


----------



## Blancrocher

So you can't bequeath your mp3 library to an heir in your will? What a load of ...


----------



## GhenghisKhan

So I watched the first half of Barenboim`s rendition of Wagner's Parsifal in 1992 or so I believe.

Man, those shiny space suits are distracting. Why can't those opera directors just stick to the original idea.


----------



## Mesenkomaha

Violin to Piano to Electric Guitar to Electronics (techno) is the natural progression of music. What comes next in 100 years?


----------



## Weston

Mesenkomaha said:


> Violin to Piano to Electric Guitar to Electronics (techno) is the natural progression of music. What comes next in 100 years?


Listener controlled compositions via direct nerve implants, or perhaps alpha wave controllers, but we already have the latter for games, etc.


----------



## Balthazar

I Sing the Body Electric.


----------



## DeepR

Playing the piano music I know with transpose function -1 semitone is so interesting and refreshing!
Before I sometimes transposed +1 up as it felt more natural than down, but down just takes a while to get used to.

(I should really play more new music...)


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DeepR said:


> Playing the piano music I know with transpose function -1 semitone is so interesting and refreshing!
> Before I sometimes transposed +1 up as it felt more natural than down, but down just takes a while to get used to.
> 
> (I should really play more new music...)


I have never heard of anything like this before....is this specifically baroque music or something like that?


----------



## DeepR

Heh, it's just the tranpose function on my digital piano. I cant actually transpose by playing, that would be a godlike skill from where Im standing.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Try taking something very simple and playing it in different keys - a fifth up or down should be fairly easy to start with - and then gradually moving on to more difficult pieces. It's a skill that can come in useful sometimes.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I'm falling more and more in love with Haydn's symphonies. I hate to always pit him against Mozart, but I also love to so I will anyway. 

Haydn just rhythms circles around everyone, even Mozart. I hear his symphonies criticized for lacking melody, at least in comparison to WaM, but I'm beginning to feel like that is akin to criticizing the melody of a Bach fugue; if it's good then that's good, but is that really the point? Mozart gets credit for being the "divine" mixture of emotion and form, but to my ears Haydn hits his own golden ratio in his development sections. It's like he knows the tune itself is weak so he just tosses you into a rollicking sea of colorful pulses until you're too busy headbanging to even notice.

I think it's a sound less like the lesser Mozart and more like the "divine" evolution of triumphal Baroque era overtures. Preceded by certain things Mozart can sound sparse at times, usually sparse in a good way admittedly, but Haydn's sound is inexhaustibly rich and heavy but with all the clarity and fluency his era is known for.

Maybe it's a type of sound Mozart wasn't even interested in achieving, but for all the celestial pixie dust highs I experience during his piano concertos he's never made me want to karate chop my table over and over like Haydn just did several times today. I am so freaking pumped right now.


----------



## Weston

^I can't agree more regarding Haydn. Simply the best of his era for me and clearly a larger influence on Beethoven than was Mozart. I also enjoy the frequent humor in Haydn's music that can still make us chuckle over 200 years later.


----------



## Weston

There are 166 albums on my classical want list, 110 on my pop/rock/jazz want list, 60 items on my audiobook want list, and probably several million on my paperback want list. I am budgeting/allowing myself one of these things this weekend. How do we decide?

Devo was right:

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want


----------



## Avey

That Charles Ives routinely attended NYP concerts, meaning at some point, it is highly likely that he attended a performance with Gustav Mahler conducting. Such a prospect makes me genuinely happy.


----------



## Dr Johnson

^^

I once met a woman who had been in a choir that had been conducted by Otto Klemperer who had, of course, met Mahler.

That still makes me happy.


----------



## Sloe

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I'm falling more and more in love with Haydn's symphonies. I hate to always pit him against Mozart, but I also love to so I will anyway.


I like Haydn´s symphonies too. The fact that he made so many makes it more to listen to. I also like that they are not too short or too long.
I wish every composer could have made more symphonies or at least that for every concerto a composer made they could have made a symphony instead.


----------



## Vesteralen

I never knew before that *West Side Story* was originally supposed to be *East Side Story* and that it was supposed to be about Jews and Catholics rather than two youth gangs of different ethnicities.


----------



## tdc

Sibelius Symphonies 1, 4 and 7 are each unique and unlike the others.

2 and 5 seem related to me and 3 and 6 also seem related.


----------



## Dim7

Is there a symphony with the nickname "Finished"?


----------



## mmsbls

This thread has gone off topic to posts that have nothing to do with music. Please keep music a part of posts here. If you wish to post random non-musical posts, please use the groups.


----------



## Weston

Dim7 said:


> Is there a symphony with the nickname "Finished"?


I don't know, but Peter Schickele wrote what he called the "Unbegun Symphony." It starts I think at movement 3. Corny, but in some ways amazing too.


----------



## Blancrocher

Not all second-hand music retailers have the same understanding of what constitutes "very good" condition.


----------



## Dim7

Okay I'm going to make a poll about notoriously famous/popular classical pieces (Which of these do you admit to liking?), or more specifically movements etc. We need 14 pieces plus the option "I don't like any of these". Which pieces should I include? The first movements of Beethoven's 5th, Moonlight Sonata, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, plus Canon in D & Für Elise at least.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I found an interesting website. It's perfect for you snarky TC people out there to get a kick out of. One such snarky article:

http://www.submediant.com/2015/10/10/pianist-solves-global-poverty-with-impassioned-liszt-sonata-climax/


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I remember getting into Romantic period music was rather difficult for me, I couldn't see the point, Bach already had rich harmonies and much better speed, Mozart and Haydn had form and rhythm. In that light the Romantics seemed pretty tired and mediocre and I never bought the pathos nonsense anyway.


----------



## Taggart

To quote from the article



> First the researchers increase the strength of the field, which flattens the floating drops into discs. They then turn the drops into stars by tuning the field to the resonant frequency of the drops - or exact multiples of that frequency. Using a particular multiple produces a star with the corresponding number of spikes.


Almost a Pythagoras type thread in a video.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Woohooo! More classical music references in the latest Doctor Who episode!


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Taggart said:


> To quote from the article
> 
> Almost a Pythagoras type thread in a video.


That pretty well explains why snowflakes form in hexagrams! It's the natural occurrence of water when not touching anything.


----------



## clavichorder

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I remember getting into Romantic period music was rather difficult for me, I couldn't see the point, Bach already had rich harmonies and much better speed, Mozart and Haydn had form and rhythm. In that light the Romantics seemed pretty tired and mediocre and I never bought the pathos nonsense anyway.


I can relate to your perspective that way. I used to only enjoy light romantics with punchy melodies, apart from the earlier composers like Mozart, Bach, Haydn, and so on.


----------



## DeepR

I just LOL'ed at Richter's performance of a Scriabin prelude I play myself, Op. 11 No. 24 (I still struggle a bit with it). 
What Richter does at that speed is near impossible because of the octave jumps and it shows because it's a bit messy. Still very impressive, but I prefer a slower approach like Pletnev.





 (Richter @ 15:27)




 (Pletnev @ 32:33)


----------



## Weston

Huilunsoittaja said:


> That pretty well explains why snowflakes form in hexagrams! It's the natural occurrence of water when not touching anything.


I could be wrong, but I thought the explanation for hexagonal snowflakes have to do the with boomerang shape of water molecules, the two hydrogen atoms creating a 120 degree angle with the oxygen. But then that could also explain this resonance, maybe?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Weston said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought the explanation for hexagonal snowflakes have to do the with boomerang shape of water molecules, the two hydrogen atoms creating a 120 degree angle with the oxygen. But then that could also explain this resonance, maybe?


Yep, the reason is one and the same. Water will make that shape, frozen or not, if it's not touching anything (other than energy of course which will make it vibrate).


----------



## wzg

The video could be enchanting, but the music ruined it... :lol:


----------



## Oscarf

Calling it music is being too nice... Had not heard anything so bad for a long time


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Didn't wanna make a thread just for this, if you have any favorite/essential *Ravel* recordings, let me know what they are!

So far, I only own the Piano Concerto in G (Argerich/Abbado), Gaspard De La Nuit (Argerich), and the String Quartet (Emerson).


----------



## Guest

DiesIraeCX said:


> Didn't wanna make a thread just for this, if you have any favorite/essential *Ravel* recordings, let me know what they are!
> 
> So far, I only own the Piano Concerto in G (Argerich/Abbado), Gaspard De La Nuit (Argerich), and the String Quartet (Emerson).


The Argerich recording is essential, yes. Also:

































To be honest though, man... and know that I don't recommend this for very many composers... Ravel was an extremely consistent composer with a few little things that are rarely recorded (like the cantatas), and he didn't write days and days of music, so if at all possible, I recommend getting some things off of this thing...









I have his operas, songs, and cantatas off of it, and am currently too lazy to dig up the individual recordings. Get L'enfant Et Les Sortileges in some form, at least...


----------



## Guest

PS: Glad you're back DiesIrae.


----------



## Dim7

Composers who compose the future generations in mind have an irrationally low time preference when you think about it.


----------



## Blancrocher

Dim7 said:


> Composers who compose the future generation in mind have an irrationally low time preference when you think about it.


Not too mention a laughably unrealistic space preference--can you name me one music venue that can accommodate a whole generation?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Failed approaches in classical music, anything where the following is a central element:

Old style* 
Neo-anything
"Something-in-between-tonal-and-atonal" 
Hybrids with other genres
Novelty for the sake of novelty

*not to be confused with homages, in the style of/ à la manière de.


----------



## Dim7

Failed approaches in western art music:

Everything that came after Schoenberg.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Wagner is so cute in Boku no Chopin. (He looks like a little kid.) But they didn't give him his neckbeard. I don't know whether I should be extremely happy or extremely mad. xp


----------



## Dim7

Atonality doesn't really exist - but neither does the distinction between Classical and Romantic _really_ exist. Impressionism is nonexistent as well.


----------



## tdc

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Failed approaches in classical music, anything where the following is a central element:
> 
> Old style*
> Neo-anything
> "Something-in-between-tonal-and-atonal"
> Hybrids with other genres
> Novelty for the sake of novelty
> 
> *not to be confused with homages, in the style of/ à la manière de.


This rules out a lot of music.

*"Something-in-between-tonal-and-atonal" * - So Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky and Bartok all failed?

*"Old style"* - J.S. Bach failed?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

tdc said:


> This rules out a lot of music.
> 
> *"Something-in-between-tonal-and-atonal" * - So Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky and Bartok all failed?
> 
> *"Old style"* - J.S. Bach failed?


The between tonal and atonal thing is an idea prompted by Honegger and Obukhov and hinted by some other composers 'trying to get back closer to tonality'. Note that Debussy and co were considered tonal composers without question.

Bach is a (quite remarkable) development from Buxtehude and other* immediate predecessors and contemporaries* (Vivaldi), he's not trying to 'revive' 14th century medieval music.


----------



## Guest

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Note that Debussy and co were considered tonal composers without question.


Erm.....By who?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

By people at that time, it was also part of the Stravisnky-Schoenberg debate. Stravinsky was 'obviously' tonal. 

Today (at least under the current TC ideological regime) we'd say he just preferred diatonic collections and some symmetrical modes that are modulatory in nature or 'in-between keys'. In the most extreme expansion of that old idea of tonality (or very restricted of 'atonality') Messiaen is also tonal. 

Also to note, 'atonal-serial' was associated with a style in the same manner that for the longest time 'counterpoint' was associated with Bach's style.

I've read somewhere that it all changed when French scholars 'tried to put Debussy in the position of Schoenberg'. Well, I guess they've partially succeeded.


----------



## Epilogue

What does "TC" mean?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

.


----------



## Epilogue

Oops. Thank you! Didn't realize this place had an ideological regime. (Though judging by the polls, I'm guessing it involves really liking late Romantic symphonic music.)


----------



## Sloe

Epilogue said:


> (Though judging by the polls, I'm guessing it involves really liking late Romantic symphonic music.)


That is because they are often nice to listen to.


----------



## Epilogue

Yeah, well, so is Johann Christian Bach.


----------



## Sloe

Epilogue said:


> Yeah, well, so is Johann Christian Bach.


Yes he is.
To express myself better late romantic symphonic music can be excpetionally wonderfully beautiful.


----------



## Epilogue

Well, yeah, if Brahms is writing it, but people aren't just voting for Brahms.


----------



## Avey

Epilogue said:


> Oops. Thank you! Didn't realize this place had an ideological regime.


You are either IN or OUT.



Epilogue said:


> (Though judging by the polls, I'm guessing it involves really liking late Romantic symphonic music.)


Definitely, polls are the best place to go to establish the types of music this forum likes, generally.


----------



## Epilogue

Random thought: If Wagner had been eaten by an Alpine bear en route to Zürich in 1849, maybe we'd remember Liszt as a figure as pivotal for the mid-to-late 19th century as Schoenberg was for the early-to-mid 20th.


----------



## Sloe

Epilogue said:


> Random thought: If Wagner had been eaten by an Alpine bear en route to Zürich in 1849, maybe we'd remember Liszt as a figure as pivotal for the mid-to-late 19th century as Schoenberg was for the early-to-mid 20th.


Or would Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi been much more popular operas or would Wagner became a one hit wonder only famous for the Flying Dutchman?


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Weston said:


> You will not likely be disappointed. I think it is just that Handel's oratorios and operas have overshadowed his great keyboard output. His keyboard suites are awesome. I especially enjoy the gigue finales. They are quite distinct from those of Bach.


I have a history of ceding that Bach is "better" but that I like Handel more, and it's no different here; at this point in time I have more affection for Handel's B-flat major suite than anything Bach wrote for the harpsichord. I regret neglecting Handel's keyboard works for so long.


----------



## Epilogue

Random thought: The Gilbert and Sullivan comic operas (or "operettas," but that designation is even less apt) are the greatest English classical music at least since Henry Purcell, if not since William Byrd - I mean, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Britten, Ferneyhough, Adès? It isn't even _close_.

Supplementary thought: G&S of course influenced English _popular_ music, and I wonder if their enrichment of that tradition was a necessary factor in making the Beatles possible almost a hundred years later. On which note, maybe it's significant that both Arthur Sullivan and Paul McCartney (on his mother's side) were/are of Catholic Irish descent.


----------



## Woodduck

Epilogue said:


> Random thought: The Gilbert and Sullivan comic operas (or "operettas," but that designation is even less apt) are the greatest English classical music at least since Henry Purcell, if not since William Byrd - I mean, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Britten, Ferneyhough, Adès? It isn't even _close_.
> 
> Supplementary thought: G&S of course influenced English _popular_ music, and I wonder if their enrichment of that tradition was a necessary factor in making the Beatles possible almost a hundred years later. On which note, maybe it's significant that both Arthur Sullivan and Paul McCartney (on his mother's side) were/are of Catholic Irish descent.


Arthur Sullivan composed the "greatest" English music since Purcell or Byrd? Elgar, Vaughan Williams, and Britten don't even come _close_ in "greatness"? Does this mean merely that you _prefer_ Sullivan to all the other composers you mention, or do you have some standard of greatness you apply to music whether you like it or not?

What "tradition" did Gilbert and/or Sullivan enrich? Are the Beatles in any sense a part of their "tradition"? Is there some significant common factor? How would their work help to make the Beatles possible, and why would the absence of their satirical farces make a popular rock group less likely to arise a century later? Why are their works not aptly called comic operas or operettas? And how does having Irish Catholic forebears establish a relationship between the works of Sullivan and the Beatles?


----------



## Epilogue

Mooooooooooooo.


----------



## helenora

Random thought after reading most popular threads on TC: when starting a debate people don't seem to be clear on definitions - every person and therefore his/her views are very different and conditioned by person's experiences, education, etc. When we try to discuss composers/compositions or music in general then inevitably we have to use some sort philosophical/sociological categories/terms such as "greatness", "genius", or as recently of " popularity" and here it starts- everyone expresses an opinion based on how THIS particular person understands the term itself and it leads to confusion. Another person will disagree with the opinion and they probably start attacking each other without even knowing that prior to that no one had clarified the term ( what one means by this term) which was used in an initial question or statement by OP. 

Of course by clarifying the term from the beginning we won't be able to avoid discussions and we don't want it. What is essential is that discussion will be more meaningful and won't sound useless or ridiculous as most of the time they look like on many forums threads.


----------



## KenOC

If we had to define terms, there'd be no chatter at all! Even "music" has so far failed an adequate definition.


----------



## helenora

KenOC said:


> If we had to define terms, there'd be no chatter at all! Even "music" has so far failed an adequate definition.


that's quite true what you say " chatter", just fountain of words, etc.....that's why we have very often straw man argument, it looks as if people come just to "bla-bla-bla" and not really interested in coming to any conclusion , I mean there is often lack of substance in a "chatter" as such. Or just we see kinda old opera ensemble style - everyone sings his own lines simultaneously with other 10 characters singing their own lines usually unrelated to the lines of others. Well, may be that's the purpose - to mimic such ensembles and to look more "musically" and at least in that to have something to do with music since sometimes the more pages one thread has the more unrelated to the topic or even to music it becomes


----------



## KenOC

helenora said:


> that's quite true what you say " chatter", just fountain of words, etc.....that's why we have very often straw man argument, it looks as if people come just to "bla-bla-bla" and not really interested in coming to any conclusion...


I for one would love to come to a conclusion. But all too often, people disagree with me and prevent that happy ending. Dastards one and all...


----------



## helenora

KenOC said:


> I for one would love to come to a conclusion. But all too often, people disagree with me and prevent that happy ending. Dastards one and all...


:lol:

hahaha, people love to disagree......

Agree about it?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Is _La Mer_ the only orchestral work by Debussy that is symphonic in form?


----------



## Sloe

DiesIraeCX said:


> Is _La Mer_ the only orchestral work by Debussy that is symphonic in form?


His symphony from 1880?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Sloe said:


> His symphony from 1880?


Ah, thank you! I'm seeing now in my Debussy Edition (DG), I have the piano duet version, which apparently is what it was originally scored for. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with the orchestral version.

_Symphonie En Si Mineur (1880-81) Pour Piano À Quatre Mains In H-Moll - Allegro_ by Alfons and Aloys Kontarsky

Thanks again for the link!


----------



## Sloe

DiesIraeCX said:


> Ah, thank you! I'm seeing now in my Debussy Edition (DG), I have the piano duet version, which apparently is what it was originally scored for. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with the orchestral version.
> 
> _Symphonie En Si Mineur (1880-81) Pour Piano À Quatre Mains In H-Moll - Allegro_ by Alfons and Aloys Kontarsky
> 
> Thanks again for the link!


Since Debussy did not made the orchestration i guess it does not Count.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Click this link, and be sent into a happy world...

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Anthology+of+Russian+Symphony+Music

Enjoy...


----------



## LHB

Randomly, has anyone heard Yoshihisa Taira's music? I've heard he is somewhat of a mix of Dutilleux an Stockhausen, which sounds pretty weird and interesting. Could someone recommend some works by him?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I bet Steve Reich has several alarm clocks of different sizes all slightly missynchronized so that he wakes up to a new piece each day. Legend says Ligeti gave him the idea.


----------



## Morimur

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I bet Steve Reich has several alarm clocks of different sizes all slightly missynchronized so that he wakes up to a new piece each day. Legend says Ligeti gave him the idea.


Yeah, his 'music' is a joke but I am sure he starts his day by rolling around in a pile of cash.


----------



## tomee

Random stuff? OK.
In the past year I have purchased about 500 classical CDs from thrift shops. I come across many repeats, and several works are very common. In a way, it's been a bit of an experiment, in that I'm seeing a cross section of what people bought 10 to 30 years ago and are now being donated.
Some observations:
Most common work overall: Vivaldi 4 seasons, possible tied with the Handel`s Watermusic. 
Most common symphony: Beethoven 9th (I have about 10 versions now) I was expecting the 5th to be the most common.
Single most common CD: Nigel Kennedy Vivaldi 4 seasons. Everyone must have bought one in the 1990s.. 

Best personal discovery: Leila Josefowicz. Found her Bohemian Rapsodies CD and loved it. She doesn't record enough!!
2nd Best personal discovery: Strauss's Four Last Songs. I was not a fan of vocal works, but for $2 I wasn't passing on anything that might be interesting. One listen and that was it - I now have 4 versions.

final tidbit: Out of all those several hundred CDs "randomly acquired" , only one was a first-year-of-the-CD-release on Philips classical label (the kind with the with plain blue artwork).


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Every time I listen to Handel's operas I get intrigued by the opening of some aria that sounds uniquely erratic for its time, almost like Jean Fery Rebel's representation of chaos, and then I realize it's just a recitative.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Just a week ago I was convinced that I'd probably never get around to familiarizing myself with the innards of Wagner's operas, and I thought I might say so in that new thread about composers we've given up on. But overlistening and general fatigue with almost every other composer I like led me to one last gasp with Das Rheingold; A week later, my ears prefer the background ditties of a lull in Wagner to some of my favorite music ever.

Strange how quick our tastes can change, and very strange how it feels so involuntary. My mind still hates listening to these 4 hour behemoths with lots of boring parts, but right now I respond to nothing else and I'm infatuated and Wagner is the greatest ever and every other Romantic composer sounds like crap in comparison etc etc.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Wagner has a thing for the 5 - 1 and 1 - 5 rhythm.


----------



## Weston

LHB said:


> Randomly, has anyone heard Yoshihisa Taira's music? I've heard he is somewhat of a mix of Dutilleux an Stockhausen, which sounds pretty weird and interesting. Could someone recommend some works by him?


No recommendations but I appreciate the tip. I'm listening now to Polyedre for Orchestra and to me it sounds almost spectral, like Ligeti which is right down my alley.

Sadly I'm having trouble finding the music anywhere but You Tube.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Wagner has a nice hat.


----------



## Dim7

Isn't Langgard's 1st symphony actually composed by Richannes Wrahms? The Wagner-Brahms hybrid, I mean.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Dim7 said:


> Isn't Langgard's 1st symphony actually composed by Richannes Wrahms? The Wagner-Brahms hybrid, I mean.


Oh God no. no no no no


----------



## Dim7

A very young one, that is.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Wagner has a nice hat.


Wagner has a nice neckbeard.

Scriabin's music is all like pass the dutchie to the right like it is 4/20

And Wagner's music sometimes has that effect on me too.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I have some free time on my hands, so I'm starting a new project. Wagner's Ring Cycle, meet Wavepad, particularly the "delete portion" function.

I know there are tons of excerpt albums that hit all the highlights but I think it'd be fun to make my own.


----------



## Iean

Why I do I feel that some of Ohhlson's work on Chopin is better than Rubinstein's?:angel:


----------



## Weston

The recent "Modernism" thread got me to thinking. Many musical isms parallel the same zeitgeists in the visual arts. Was there ever a musical equivalent of dadaism and of surrealism?


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> The recent "Modernism" thread got me to thinking. Many musical isms parallel the same zeitgeists in the visual arts. Was there ever a musical equivalent of dadaism and of surrealism?


Dadaism? Yes. Satie aligned himself to the Dada movement for a brief amount of time, as did some others, now forgotten, who were not trained musicians.

Don't know about Surrealism.

You may or may not know that Stravinsky was friends with Picasso and Schoenberg with Kandinsky, so the interplay between arts was certainly there.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Yesterday I listened to this interesting programme about the early recording industry in the UK.

Apparently the way they coped with volume fluctuations from the singers whom they were recording was to put them on a sort of trolley and trundle them further from or closer to the horn of the recording device.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

So I just found out _yesterday_ that the statue of the fancy Victorian man in the National Botanic Gardens was actually a statue of Chopin. The whole time I was thinking it was just some random government dude.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

What the fach is this


----------



## Weston

I'll reserve judgement until/if I hear more than these snippets.


----------



## Woodduck

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What the fach is this


Basically, it's gypsy fiddling. You can hear this sort of playing - big vibrato and sliding all over the place - from a lot of old Hungarian gypsy bands. I must say, though, that its use in a classical context is, uh, unique. Well, OK, horrible.

The real thing, though, can be fun - improvisatory, impulsive, impassioned. Check out this unknown Heifetz in a Hungarian cafe, and savor the poor tourist at the table.






And this:






Being half Hungarian, I have a weakness for this stuff.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Woodduck said:


> Basically, it's gypsy fiddling. You can hear this sort of playing - big vibrato and sliding all over the place - from a lot of old Hungarian gypsy bands. I must say, though, that its use in a classical context is, uh, unique. Well, OK, horrible.
> 
> The real thing, though, can be fun - improvisatory, impulsive, impassioned. Check out this unknown Heifetz in a Hungarian cafe, and savor the poor tourist at the table.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being half Hungarian, I have a weakness for this stuff.


Thanks for these. I really like that style of music, but wow, not that technique when implemented in classical music!


----------



## Morimur

Careful with that gypsy music, it may cast a spell on you.


----------



## Gouldanian

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What the fach is this


A terrible waste of time and talent.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

The loudness equalization feature in my speakers settings really helps distinguish the voices in fugues. Wish I had known that earlier.


----------



## Celloman

After playing Schubert's 9th symphony for a whole semester, I have decided that I don't like it. The piece is bombastic and utterly superficial.

There, I said it. Now I can perform the final concert with dignity.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What the fach is this


I am going to add this to my vocabulary.


----------



## Woodduck

Celloman said:


> After playing Schubert's 9th symphony for a whole semester, I have decided that I don't like it. The piece is bombastic and utterly superficial.
> 
> There, I said it. Now I can perform the final concert with dignity.


That was my impression of the symphony in years past.

Now I wouldn't say "utterly."


----------



## Sloe

Celloman said:


> After playing Schubert's 9th symphony for a whole semester, I have decided that I don't like it. The piece is bombastic and utterly superficial.
> 
> There, I said it. Now I can perform the final concert with dignity.


But I love Schubert´s 9th symphony.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Of late I've been entertaining myself with the speed button of Youtube. I find it mesmerizing how strangely robotic the frantic movements of the orchestra become when you speed it up, while slowing down lets you see all the twitches of its various members and the music becomes more a space than a succession of phrases.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I read that Shostakovich attended a perfomance of Jesus Christ Superstar shortly before his dead and like it a lot. He said he would compose something like that if wasn't for Stalin.


----------



## KenOC

Celloman said:


> After playing Schubert's 9th symphony for a whole semester, I have decided that I don't like it. The piece is bombastic and utterly superficial.


But didn't Schumann speak of its "heavenly bombast"?


----------



## Weston

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I read that Shostakovich attended a perfomance of Jesus Christ Superstar shortly before his dead and like it a lot. He said he would compose something like that if wasn't for Stalin.


 ! ! 

Say this isn't so!

However, I confess I sort of sometimes enjoy his Requiem. Webber's I mean -- in private -- in headphones.


----------



## tortkis

Weston said:


> The recent "Modernism" thread got me to thinking. Many musical isms parallel the same zeitgeists in the visual arts. Was there ever a musical equivalent of dadaism and of surrealism?





Mahlerian said:


> Dadaism? Yes. Satie aligned himself to the Dada movement for a brief amount of time, as did some others, now forgotten, who were not trained musicians.
> 
> Don't know about Surrealism.


The compositions of John Cage (who was an admirer of Satie) were called Neo-Dadaist, but Cage himself was critical about Dadaism (and also about surrealism). He said Satie was much more Dadaist than him, especially regarding Vexation.

Someone (I think schigolch) posted Être Dieu (1974), an opera-poem written by Dali with music by Igor Wakhévitch, in the currently listening thread. I listened to it on youtube.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Just had the random thought of making another account*, call it 'Gwynevere' or something like that and pretend to be a wise young woman madly in love with Debussy. A sort of mockery to the Wagner fanatics. It would have made for interesting conversation with Couchie. There was also the possibility of making multiple accounts and have conversations with myself from different viewpoints, which would probably be dangerous to my sanity. But then, I'm lazy and can no longer waste time like that.

yes I know it's illegal thankyouverymuch


----------



## ptr

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Just had the random thought of making another account*, call it 'Gwynevere' or something like that and pretend to be a wise young woman madly in love with Debussy. A sort of mockery to the Wagner fanatics. It would have made for interesting conversation with Couchie. There was also the possibility of making multiple accounts and have conversations with myself from different viewpoints, which would probably be dangerous to my sanity. But then, I'm lazy and can no longer waste time like that.


Dear Gwynnie, lazy personality or not, that would be great fun! We need some more rule bending on TC and what better then revealing your inner woman!

/ptr


----------



## Weston

I sometimes wonder where opera and lieder singers practice -- and rock groups for that matter. Do they just belt out at full volume in a crowded apartment house? In other words, how does anyone ever discover they may have a knack for it?


----------



## GodNickSatan

Listening to Scriabin is like doing drugs.


----------



## ribonucleic

The economics of classical music performance have apparently gotten even worse.

Here's Hilary Hahn making ends meet by playing in a shopping mall.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

The good news is that Das Rheingold is my new favorite thing ever; the bad news is that I feel like my brain is a fishbowl with Rhine maidens in it, Rhine maidens that won't stop singing...


----------



## Guest

I just came here to say:

I have been working with Fourier series and Fourier transforms a lot this semester and...

As much as I love spectral music and as much as Fourier analysis makes sense to me in graphical/tabular forms, the Fourier series itself can go to hell. 

Like, mmk Jonathan Harvey, I see how you did that. But what on earth is this problem even asking for?!?!

Guess I'll just putter around TC until my professor emails me back.


----------



## Becca

Why, when playing the musical interludes from _Peter Grimes_, do so many conductors leave off the Passacaglia?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

. .





​


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Pierrgy Bouligeti is so off putting for some reason.


----------



## Dedalus

Weston said:


> I sometimes wonder where opera and lieder singers practice -- and rock groups for that matter. Do they just belt out at full volume in a crowded apartment house? In other words, how does anyone ever discover they may have a knack for it?


I can only speak for rock groups. Usually, for starters in somebody's basement, parent's or otherwise. Then if they get serious they can pay for studio time slots. Or if they're lucky they just know a guy who has a big steel building in the middle of nowhere (speaking from experience here).


----------



## SeptimalTritone

nathanb said:


> I just came here to say:
> 
> I have been working with Fourier series and Fourier transforms a lot this semester and...
> 
> As much as I love spectral music and as much as Fourier analysis makes sense to me in graphical/tabular forms, the Fourier series itself can go to hell.
> 
> Like, mmk Jonathan Harvey, I see how you did that. But what on earth is this problem even asking for?!?!
> 
> Guess I'll just putter around TC until my professor emails me back.


I love love love Fourier transforms and as a physicist who has worked in solid state and now is doing quantum optics, it's all Fourier transforms. I imagine since you're a EE, that in any analog signal work you do you'll need them as well. Good luck!

My favorite conceptual part of Fourier transforms is the convolution theorem. It's perhaps the most physically/conceptually important idea.


----------



## Chronochromie

Richannes Wrahms said:


> View attachment 78801
> . .
> View attachment 78800​











.................................


----------



## Mahlerian

Der Leiermann said:


> View attachment 78803
> 
> 
> .................................


That's a Messi Ligeti.


----------



## Chronochromie

Mahlerian said:


> That's a Messi Ligeti.


The composer of the famous Saint François Polyphony. (sorry)


----------



## science

Der Leiermann said:


> The composer of the famous Saint François Polyphony. (sorry)


I should leave issues like this to Nerrefid, but I'll suggest he composed the Turangalîla-Symphonique for 100 metronomes.


----------



## Chronochromie

science said:


> I should leave issues like this to Nerrefid, but I'll suggest he composed the Turangalîla-Symphonique for 100 metronomes.


And also Des canyons aux atmosphères...


----------



## science

Der Leiermann said:


> And also Des canyons aux atmosphères...


I wish I could go on... I really want to do something with Éclairs sur l'au-delà….


----------



## Mahlerian

science said:


> I wish I could go on... I really want to do something with Éclairs sur l'au-delà….


What about the Nonsense études de rythme?


----------



## Chronochromie

science said:


> I wish I could go on... I really want to do something with Éclairs sur l'au-delà….


You must surely mean Apparitions sur l'au delà...


----------



## science

Mahlerian said:


> What about the Nonsense études de rythme?


Would've gone over my head without the context to help me!


----------



## science

I'm tempted to go all "Síppal, dobbal, Cantéyodjayâ" on y'all.


----------



## science

So (dare I ask?), of Messi Ligeti's known works: 

- Saint François Polyphony
- Turangalîla-Symphonique for 100 metronomes
- Des canyons aux atmosphères
- Nonsense études de rythme
- Apparitions sur l'au delà...
- Síppal, dobbal, Cantéyodjayâ

... which are the most depressing?


----------



## Chronochromie

science said:


> So (dare I ask?), of Messi Ligeti's known works:
> 
> - Saint François Polyphony
> - Turangalîla-Symphonique for 100 metronomes
> - Des canyons aux atmosphères
> - Nonsense études de rythme
> - Apparitions sur l'au delà...
> - Síppal, dobbal, Cantéyodjayâ
> 
> ... which are the most depressing?


All of them, because they don't exist. 
It's actually O Sacrum Lux aeterna!


----------



## Dim7

DiesIraeCX said:


> The Pierrgy Bouligeti is so off putting for some reason.


Yeah, Brilton Spabbit looks much more approachable.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Okay so, while Das Rheingold is my new favorite piece of music, it seems a little lacking in, well, music. Not the quality obviously, but the quantity? I keep returning for the opening scene with the Rhine maidens, Wotan waking up, Loge's speech about women's beauty, and the ending, but the motif-seasoning on the gaps in between just isn't enough to justify sitting through the whole thing multiple times, which I know some people enjoy doing. Perhaps there is something more subtle here that I'm missing, but I did go through minute by minute to pluck out every nugget of music, and, considering the two hour and thirty minute running time, the haul was somewhat spare.

Even after a single viewing it seems like Tristan and Isolde is much denser with music. I'm still new to Wagner though so whatever. Moving on to Die Walkure.


----------



## Becca

For those of you unfamiliar with it, I recommend watching this 12 minute video from _Sarah's Music_ on Deutsche Welle. Sarah Willis plays horn in the Berlin Philharmonic, and in this episode she talks about and shows the Berlin Konzerthaus Orchestra's_ Mittendrin_ (In the Middle) concerts with Ivan Fisher. What makes these so interesting is that the orchestra is spread out around the hall with the conductor in the middle and the audience interspersed around, i.e. the audience is in the middle of it all.

http://www.dw.com/en/sarahs-music-mittendrin-at-the-heart-of-the-orchestra-2015-11-21/e-18810262-9798


----------



## Guest

Becca said:


> For those of you unfamiliar with it, I recommend watching this 12 minute video from _Sarah's Music_ on Deutsche Welle. Sarah Willis plays horn in the Berlin Philharmonic, and in this episode she talks about and shows the Berlin Konzerthaus Orchestra's_ Mittendrin_ (In the Middle) concerts with Ivan Fisher. What makes these so interesting is that the orchestra is spread out around the hall with the conductor in the middle and the audience interspersed around, i.e. the audience is in the middle of it all.
> 
> http://www.dw.com/en/sarahs-music-mittendrin-at-the-heart-of-the-orchestra-2015-11-21/e-18810262-9798


Spatially dispersed orchestral groups are nothing new, Becca.


----------



## Becca

nathanb said:


> Spatially dispersed orchestral groups are nothing new, Becca.


I presume that you did not bother to watch it as that is not the point


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Bird Messiaen.


----------



## ribonucleic

Some people love Glenn Gould more than others.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln




----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Richannes Wrahms said:


> View attachment 78801
> . .
> View attachment 78800​


[Insert appropriate Steven Universe quote relating to fusion here]


----------



## Stavrogin

Mahlerian said:


> That's a Messi Ligeti.


Ehm...


----------



## Guest

I have a sneaking suspicion that Maria Callas + Bruce Jenner will yield a Caitlyn Jenner.


----------



## Stavrogin

Don't know about that, but here's my favourite composer, Ludwej Van Prokofeen


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

May I see a Frollo-Rachmaninoff?


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

Listening to Bach cantatas now.....what's with the 9-year olds singing the solo soprano parts or even the whole section? They sound.....I mean.....there's got to be better singers than that. If that's an accurate baroque performance then I feel really badly for people who have to sit through it.

Also, what's with the countertenors.......a real contralto has a better, warmer sound with much stronger lows, and secondly, it's easy as hell for any baritone or bass to sing well in falsetto, I don't think of it as being especially impressive.


----------



## Guest

I think I need to see the Scorcese film Shutter Island. I've just discovered it utilises music by Scelsi, Ligeti, Penderecki, Cage and Feldman. Strewth.

(Plus of course, it's a film by Scorcese!)


----------



## Stirling

The Meaning of Mahler by Leo Carey | The New York Review of Books
Not the best, but good.


----------



## Cosmos

Beethoven, Op. 39 - Two Preludes through all 12 keys





Just...wow


----------



## Weston

I just had a random thought wondering about the continuo. 

I associate the continuo with the baroque era, assuming it is used to make the bass or cello bite through the rest of the ensemble so as not to become muddy and lost. The continuo (cello and harpsichord) is considered one instrument even as in for example the trio sonatas. 

Its use seemed to die out at the end of the baroque along with figured bass notation. What caused this? It seems to have nothing to do with counterpoint or complexity. Was it the rise in prevalence of the double bass? Or just the smoothing out or simplifying of the textures that occurred during the classic era? Early classic era works use a harpsichord in a kind of continuo role, but it seems short lived after the baroque. 

I haven't done any reading about this, it was just a spur of the moment thought.


----------



## Chronochromie

Weston said:


> I just had a random thought wondering about the continuo.
> 
> I associate the continuo with the baroque era, assuming it is used to make the bass or cello bite through the rest of the ensemble so as not to become muddy and lost. The continuo (cello and harpsichord) is considered one instrument even as in for example the trio sonatas.
> 
> Its use seemed to die out at the end of the baroque along with figured bass notation. What caused this? It seems to have nothing to do with counterpoint or complexity. Was it the rise in prevalence of the double bass? Or just the smoothing out or simplifying of the textures that occurred during the classic era? Early classic era works use a harpsichord in a kind of continuo role, but it seems short lived after the baroque.
> 
> I haven't done any reading about this, it was just a spur of the moment thought.


I don't know the answer, but René Jacobs' Così fan tutte uses a fortepiano as continuo. I don't know how common this was or how long did it last.


----------



## Chronochromie

I just found out that the national premiere of Grisey's Les espaces acoustiques was given some months ago and I missed it because I didn't know. 
I'd give my little finger to see that live.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Well, one of the positive things I can say about the brute-force memorization of two music dramas by Wagner is that familiarizing myself with Mahler and Bruckner now feels as easy and smooth as hearing Mozart that I already know.

edit: I found the story in Rheingold and Valkyrie interesting but a bit dry (except for Loge; he's my favorite!), but so far Siegfried is actually entertaining. You got an odd couple, a hothead with humorous insults, an "answer me these questions three!" sequence, foreboding talk of a dragon - it almost makes me feel like a little kid again!


----------



## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


>


How I discovered Rachmaninoff.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

mstar said:


> How I discovered Rachmaninoff.


Rachmaninoff was how I discovered this movie and this character!


----------



## Guest

mstar said:


> How I discovered Rachmaninoff.


For some reason I had a momentary lapse of short-term memory and thought this was an STI. For some reason I found it to be a funny one.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Now I'm imagining him singing about Rachmaninoff. Yikes.


----------



## ribonucleic

dogen said:


> I think I need to see the Scorcese film Shutter Island.


Think twice.


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

I actually think it's a kind of conspiracy that I've never heard this piece before:






Like, what is the WCM establishment doing with itself? This is like the piece that people who like Stravinsky's visceral, picturesque streak could really love, so where has it been my whole life?


----------



## Selby

I really like the word 'glib.'


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I really like watching this performance of Das Rheingold even though it has no staging. I can just anchor my imagination to their facial expressions and after awhile I forget to miss the staging anyway; the singers' enthusiasm, the crisp picture and sound, and I think because my brain is overlaying this colorful fantasy atmosphere over something that looks like a performance of the St. Matthew Passion - it all just gives me this ghostly nostalgic storybook feeling.


----------



## Weston

Trying to shop for new music this morning I find myself getting bored with all of the options on my want list. Maybe I finally have enough music? Is there such a thing?


----------



## Blancrocher

Weston said:


> Trying to shop for new music this morning I find myself getting bored with all of the options on my want list. Maybe I finally have enough music? Is there such a thing?


At the start of the new year I'm sure many of us are thinking it would be a good idea to downsize--in more ways than one!


----------



## MagneticGhost

Weston said:


> Trying to shop for new music this morning I find myself getting bored with all of the options on my want list. Maybe I finally have enough music? Is there such a thing?


I'm not there yet but I am putting less on my Amazon Wishlists and even thinking about taking some items off. My bank account hopes this trend will continue. I sometimes buy for the sake of buying now rather than because I have a burning desire to own a particular CD or box. I certainly have enough to listen to to last me many years with no repetition.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Another positive side effect of Wagner I'm noticing - I feel like I've become overall more receptive to detail in opera music. I tried to watch Madama Butterfly several times a few months ago but the story seemed too intrusive for me to ever finish. The music felt suffocated and fragmented by the start-and-stop quality it adopted for the sake of the narrative, but in retrospect I think my attention was just locked into the recitative-aria-recitative frame of mind and kept wandering from the music when it wasn't clear where I was. Music that seemed like mere supplemental grease to get us to the next piece of _real_ music is starting to jump out at me and reveal a substantiveness that I can't believe I was missing before - for example the tour of the house at the beginning of Madama Butterfly.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

*It's him.

He has come back from the dead.*


----------



## DavidA

New Years honours list - Radu Lupu a CBE. Other musicians also honoured

http://slippedisc.com/2015/12/radu-lupu-leads-honours-list/


----------



## mstar

Weston said:


> Trying to shop for new music this morning I find myself getting bored with all of the options on my want list. Maybe I finally have enough music? Is there such a thing?


Have you tried something that could be seen as considerably outrageous compared to the works you listen to the most? For example, I listen mostly to the Romantic and Modern Eras, but I'm planning to up my listening a little with some atonal works.


----------



## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Rachmaninoff was how I discovered this movie and this character!


I envy your sophistication.


----------



## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Rachmaninoff was how I discovered this movie and this character!





nathanb said:


> For some reason I had a momentary lapse of short-term memory and thought this was an STI. For some reason I found it to be a funny one.





Abraham Lincoln said:


> Now I'm imagining him singing about Rachmaninoff. Yikes.


I started laughing out loud in front of strangers.

Is it bad that I want to start that thread and see what happens? ...


----------



## juliante

Anyway. No 174 on tc top 200 SQs it may be, but the first movement of Beethoven's 4th sq is great!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

The guy in the other side of the mirror would at least die of starvation if it entered our side and couldn't go back, cus his molecules got the opposite quiraty.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

Richannes Wrahms said:


> The guy in the other side of the mirror would at least die of starvation if it entered our side and couldn't go back, cus his molecules got the opposite quiraty.


The "guy" on the other side of the mirror is just reflected light. It corresponds to no person, much less a person of molecules with opposite chirality.

So you're wrong. "He" would not "die" or "starve" due to lack of opposite-chirality biochemistry.

I win nerd logic!!!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

SeptimalTritone said:


> The "guy" on the other side of the mirror is just reflected light. It corresponds to no person, much less a person of molecules with opposite chirality.
> 
> So you're wrong. "He" would not "die" or "starve" due to lack of opposite-chirality biochemistry.
> 
> I win nerd logic!!!


Some possible answers:

a) Duh.
b) That's what he want's us to think.
c) You are no fun.
d) I didn't say it was a conventional mirror.


----------



## motoboy

None of my friends get this.


----------



## Weston

mstar said:


> Have you tried something that could be seen as considerably outrageous compared to the works you listen to the most? For example, I listen mostly to the Romantic and Modern Eras, but I'm planning to up my listening a little with some atonal works.


Good idea. I'm already fairly into atonal or non-common practice or whatever it should be called, but I don't have a huge collection of it yet. And then there is art song, oratorios and the like.

I think I was just a little down at having to work so much overtime at my age.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I found this photo of Michael Jackson partying with Leonard Bernstein. Unbelievable!!


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

This is not a scam... it almost seems like it could be, but it isn't. Apparently this was the first draft:


----------



## DeepR

^ Yes, Lisitsa plays that version on her recent album Scriabin - Nuances. 
Pretty strange when you've heard the familiar version so many times. I'm working on playing the piece as well.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

DeepR said:


> ^ Yes, Lisitsa plays that version on her recent album Scriabin - Nuances.
> Pretty strange when you've heard the familiar version so many times. I'm working on playing the piece as well.


It's so weird!! I showed it to a friend who didn't notice much of a difference but there _totally _is a difference! This rough draft is so much more positive sounding, and also more meandering. Scriabin edited it to be more concise thematically but also darker. How strange! Perhaps without the editing, the etude would still be famous though cuz the main theme is untouched.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Charles Rosen thought the death of Beethoven in 1827 had a creatively liberating effect on Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Chopin, and Schumann. Maybe the death of Boulez will do the same for young composers today? (God knows they seem to need the help.)


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

nevermind..............
;

View attachment 80179


kinda creepy


----------



## Dim7

everbody...................


----------



## KenOC

Today in 1941 Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time was first performed at Stalag 8a in Görlitz, Silesia.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

This is MozoM.










And this is...uh...TrarT.


----------



## KenOC

For one of our members: a 55-foot glass slipper in Taiwan.


----------



## Woodduck

KenOC said:


> For one of our members: a 55-foot glass slipper in Taiwan.


One could fit any number of ugly stepsisters in there.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Discovery today. Just guess who it is.


----------



## Guest

The Boulez album I've just purchased is exceptional. Truly, because the liner notes refer to another album entirely! (and not even by Boulez)


----------



## Mahlerian

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Discovery today. Just guess who it is.
> 
> View attachment 80345


Looks a bit like Shostakovich.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

If Pierre Boulez had died at the same age as Gérard Grisey (which would have been in 1977), then his last major work would have been the _Rituel_ (or "Messagesquisses," if that counts). We never would have heard _Répons_, the "Dialogue de l'ombre double," the version of _...explosante fixe..._ with MIDI flute, or "Anthèmes 2" - the entire electroacoustic period - _Sur incises_, the orchestrated _Notations_, or _Dérive 2_.

It makes me wonder what Grisey might have done if he'd had another twenty years or more after the _Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil_ (well, I guess so far he could only have had a maximum of eighteen).


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Mahlerian said:


> Looks a bit like Shostakovich.


Correct! The iconic glasses really define him in many ways. Perhaps if he didn't need them so much, he could have taken them off if he went in public if he wanted to go incognito.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Looks a bit like vitraux.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Top row: Telemann, Pachelbel, Schoenberg
Bottom row: JS Bach, Stravinsky, Mendelssohn

I got lazy with Pac and Telly's dresses.


----------



## Le Peel

I wonder what a Classical and Romantic Symphony written by Bach would sound like.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Sometimes I like to joke that Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach are in a polyamorous gay relationship.


----------



## Morimur

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Top row: Telemann, Pachelbel, Schoenberg
> Bottom row: JS Bach, Stravinsky, Mendelssohn
> 
> I got lazy with Pac and Telly's dresses.


Why do they all look like girls?


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Morimur said:


> Why do they all look like girls?


I think that's the point of the drawings.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Berlioz is freaking me out, man. On the first listen of something my attention is supposed to drift off as I wash dishes, and I'm supposed to angrily fumble for my phone with wet fingers so I can rewind and listen again, and then I'm supposed to listen 30 more times and still not like it and then search talkclassical for that composer's name + overrated so I can feel vindicated. And then, months later, I'm supposed to kind of start liking it, and then MAYBE fall in love with it even later.

But I'm actually experiencing a real adrenaline rush, genuine excitement, _without_ having primed my expectations through excessive memorization so I can fruitlessly attempt to will myself into a connection with the music's narrative... I actually just like the music on the first listen!? I'd forgotten that could even happen (well except for Wagner; he recently did this to me too, but still)! Hahahahaha! I want to just go skip through a meadow somewhere this feels so good! This is actually happening right now as I write this my brain is full of flashing of colors I feel like I'm drunk texting #sohappy


----------



## Headphone Hermit

^^^ I'm sure Hector will be delighted that his music got through to you whilst you were washing the dishes

see how impressed he looks?









He hasn't been that happy since Disney named a cat in a cartoon after him :lol:


----------



## Harold in Columbia

So if we posit that Berlioz's most important influence was on Wagner, and Debussy's most important influence was on the Schönberg of _Pierrot lunaire_ (second most important influence on Bartók) - and that the most important influence on Berlioz was Beethoven, and the most important influence on Debussy was Wagner - why do the French hate their own composers so much?


----------



## Becca

*What killed Mozart*

From the Los Angeles Times, an article about physicians who enjoy trying to determine the real cause of death of famous people in history, this time it was Mozart...

_On a lark in the late 1990s, a musician and medical colleague of Hirschmann's invited him to lecture on the death of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in 1791, just shy of his 36th birthday. Hirschmann, an infectious disease expert and insatiable reader with a penchant for problem-solving, knew next to nothing about Mozart's life or the circumstances of his demise. But the challenge sounded like fun, and he soon dived into every biography he could find.

Mozart had suffered from a fever with joint pain as a child, which some doctors have interpreted as acute rheumatic fever. Because this can lead to chronic heart complications, many assumed the Austrian composer died of heart failure.

One music historian suggested Mozart had been poisoned by his archrival, Italian composer Antonio Salieri. Other candidates for cause of death included kidney failure and infective endocarditis.

None of those diagnoses added up, Hirschmann thought. Mozart's family letters said he was "in perfect health" before he was suddenly overtaken by fever and a skin rash.

These symptoms - along with physicians' notes and diary entries from the time - pointed to some sort of outbreak. The only one that matched Mozart's symptoms was trichinosis, a parasitic disease caused by eating undercooked meat, usually pork. But Hirschmann had one big problem: He didn't know what Mozart ate.

As he sat in the hospital library waiting to give his lecture, Hirschmann leafed through a book one last time. That's when he came across a letter that stopped him cold.

Mozart was writing to his wife, Constanze, when he was interrupted by a servant bringing dinner. He wrote:

"And what do I smell? ... Pork cutlets! Che gusto. I eat to your health."

The letter was dated Oct. 7, 1791. Mozart fell sick 44 days later - about the time it typically takes for trichinosis symptoms to appear after infection._


----------



## Arsakes

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> Berlioz is freaking me out, man. On the first listen of something my attention is supposed to drift off as I wash dishes, and I'm supposed to angrily fumble for my phone with wet fingers so I can rewind and listen again, and then I'm supposed to listen 30 more times and still not like it and then search talkclassical for that composer's name + overrated so I can feel vindicated. And then, months later, I'm supposed to kind of start liking it, and then MAYBE fall in love with it even later.
> 
> But I'm actually experiencing a real adrenaline rush, genuine excitement, _without_ having primed my expectations through excessive memorization so I can fruitlessly attempt to will myself into a connection with the music's narrative... I actually just like the music on the first listen!? I'd forgotten that could even happen (well except for Wagner; he recently did this to me too, but still)! Hahahahaha! I want to just go skip through a meadow somewhere this feels so good! This is actually happening right now as I write this my brain is full of flashing of colors I feel like I'm drunk texting #sohappy







:tiphat:


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Harold in Columbia said:


> So if we posit ...... why do the French hate their own composers so much?


Do they 'hate' their own composers?

Really? *All* of them .... or just some?


----------



## MagneticGhost

Becca said:


> From the Los Angeles Times, an article about physicians who enjoy trying to determine the real cause of death of famous people in history, this time it was Mozart...
> 
> _On a lark in the late 1990s, a musician and medical colleague of Hirschmann's invited him to lecture on the death of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in 1791, just shy of his 36th birthday. Hirschmann, an infectious disease expert and insatiable reader with a penchant for problem-solving, knew next to nothing about Mozart's life or the circumstances of his demise. But the challenge sounded like fun, and he soon dived into every biography he could find.
> 
> Mozart had suffered from a fever with joint pain as a child, which some doctors have interpreted as acute rheumatic fever. Because this can lead to chronic heart complications, many assumed the Austrian composer died of heart failure.
> 
> One music historian suggested Mozart had been poisoned by his archrival, Italian composer Antonio Salieri. Other candidates for cause of death included kidney failure and infective endocarditis.
> 
> None of those diagnoses added up, Hirschmann thought. Mozart's family letters said he was "in perfect health" before he was suddenly overtaken by fever and a skin rash.
> 
> These symptoms - along with physicians' notes and diary entries from the time - pointed to some sort of outbreak. The only one that matched Mozart's symptoms was trichinosis, a parasitic disease caused by eating undercooked meat, usually pork. But Hirschmann had one big problem: He didn't know what Mozart ate.
> 
> As he sat in the hospital library waiting to give his lecture, Hirschmann leafed through a book one last time. That's when he came across a letter that stopped him cold.
> 
> Mozart was writing to his wife, Constanze, when he was interrupted by a servant bringing dinner. He wrote:
> 
> "And what do I smell? ... Pork cutlets! Che gusto. I eat to your health."
> 
> The letter was dated Oct. 7, 1791. Mozart fell sick 44 days later - about the time it typically takes for trichinosis symptoms to appear after infection._


Great article - thanks for posting. Very interesting


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Wagner has pretty much become my favorite composer at this point, but regrettably I still don't understand why the singers are even there, in a musical sense. On the rare occasion that they actually sing it's magical I'll give them that. And I understand that writing blaring recitative over 95 percent of your music is a good way to force everyone into a common interpretation of what it means, but it's not always the most interesting thing to watch for me. They're essentially the equivalents of modern day actors it seems, there to literally just speak dialogue, but at .35x speed, which is especially tedious during exposition, and at 5x volume, which becomes grating after an hour. 

I've always understood how singing can be used to enhance a story and develop character. I do not understand what aesthetic effect is achieved by yelling a libretto over music, not even if it's the best music ever. I'm not trying to be disparaging - rather I'd like to read an explanation for how I'm mistaken here and then return, newly enlightened, to the music so I can enjoy it even more than I already am, but for now I'm just completely baffled. Straight up confused. I'm in a madhouse. And I honestly can't shake the feeling that there is something tragic in the fact that Wagner chose to write his operas this way.


----------



## Arsakes

Morimur said:


> Why do they all look like girls?


Japanese Anime and Manga influence!


----------



## Dim7

Arsakes said:


> *Japanese *Anime and Manga influence!


Unnecessary redundancy.....


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Dim7 said:


> Unnecessary redundancy.....


only for some of you


----------



## Dr Johnson

On Monday night I listened to the programme Mastertapes on Radio 4.

This episode was about Nigel Kennedy's 1989 recording of the Four Seasons.

Near the beginning of the programme (02:52 onwards) they briefly discuss Kennedy's 1984 recording of Elgar's Violin Concerto with Vernon Handley. Kennedy claims that he was not the first choice of soloist for the recording but that the original artist had rendered themselves _hors de combat_ and he had been asked to step in at the last minute.

Anyone know any more about this?


----------



## DeepR

Henselt's Etudes Op. 2 and Op. 5 are hit or miss to me. Not Chopin but he can be good in his own right.


----------



## MoonlightSonata




----------



## Medtnaculus

Just discovered Lyadov's Barcarolle. Had to make a video of it right away!






Enchanting.


----------



## Arsakes

So is there by any chance a classical "This or That" thread, kind of a game that in it you should choose between two option the above poster have provided?

For example a post in it can have:

Korsakov Symphony No.1 or Borodin Symphony No.1?

or

Hungarian Dances or Slavonic Dances?

or

Schubert or Schumann?

Then the below poster choose one of them.


----------



## Chronochromie

Arsakes said:


> So is there by any chance a classical "This or That" thread, kind of a game that in it you should choose between two option the above poster have provided?
> 
> For example a post in it can have:
> 
> Korsakov Symphony No.1 or Borodin Symphony No.1?
> 
> or
> 
> Hungarian Dances or Slavonic Dances?
> 
> or
> 
> Schubert or Schumann?
> 
> Then the below poster choose one of them.


http://www.talkclassical.com/19362-who-do-you-think.html


----------



## Arsakes

Not entirely that, but it will work.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Just discovered this film. A clip:






Something about the pianist... his mannerisms and face are familiar... who could it be?  

It's Sviatoslav Richter!!!!!!


----------



## hpowders

I would take up either the bassoon, bass clarinet or English horn because Shostakovich wrote so many wonderful solos for these instruments that haven't always been given their place in the sun. An oasis for these wind instruments in the Shostakovich symphonies!


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I heard Ode to joy in a McDonald's commercial about ice cream. I was like, what the ****** is this!!!


----------



## mstar

When I was a few years old, I thought the second movement of Dvorak's New World Symphony was the unofficial American National Anthem.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

So I recently found out this guy existed and I am so happy.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I just saw this movie. I lol'd so hard:










FINALLY SOMEONE DOES IT!!! :lol:


----------



## hpowders

One of the most breathtaking (no pun intended) moments in all music for me is the amazing 3 1/2 minute English horn solo accompanied by soft tremolo strings from the first movement of the Shostakovich Symphony No. 8.

Amazing!!


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

If I die, can someone dressed as Alma Deutscher attend my funeral? You don't need to say anything, you just need to stand there smiling evilly to yourself.


----------



## elgar's ghost

After going through their respective family trees starting from King Robert I 'the Bruce' of Scotland (1274-1329) it transpires that George II (1683-1760), the Hanoverian king of Great Britain, had exactly the same amount of Scottish ancestry in him as Charles Edward Stuart aka 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' (1720-1788), the man who attempted to depose him in 1745. 

Both had a common ancestor in James VI of Scotland/I of England (1566-1625) and as no further Scottish blood entered into their respective branches after that it meant that both men had less than 10% Scottish blood flowing through their veins (and even less English, incidentally). George II was of course predominantly German while Charles Edward Stuart was mainly a mix of Polish, Italian and French. 

To be honest, I did all this because I had nothing else better to do.


----------



## Dr Johnson

elgars ghost said:


> After going through their respective family trees starting from King Robert I 'the Bruce' of Scotland (1274-1329) it transpires that George II (1683-1760), the Hanoverian king of Great Britain, had exactly the same amount of Scottish ancestry in him as Charles Edward Stuart aka 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' (1720-1788), the man who attempted to depose him in 1745.
> 
> Both had a common ancestor in James VI of Scotland/I of England (1566-1625) and as no further Scottish blood entered into their respective branches after that it meant that both men had less than 10% Scottish blood flowing through their veins (and even less English, incidentally). George II was of course predominantly German while Charles Edward Stuart was mainly a mix of Polish, Italian and French.
> 
> *To be honest, I did all this because I had nothing else better to do.*


There is no finer reason.


----------



## MagneticGhost

OK - some random fuming. 
I was looking to plug some gaps in my Holst collection. Some of the works I need are in collections with other works that I already own. Having recently got myself a new hi-fi through which I can listen to good quality digital files - I thought to myself that this would be an opportunity to download single tracks instead of buying a whole lot of repetition. 
Wouldn't you know - the very tracks I want to download are only available 'Album Only'.
What happened to the great new world of being able to download only the tracks you want. The track in this particular moment is just over 10 minutes. Why not charge double instead of completely vetoing it. AND then they complain that people pirate stuff. 

Rant Over.


----------



## Blancrocher

MagneticGhost said:


> OK - some random fuming.
> I was looking to plug some gaps in my Holst collection. Some of the works I need are in collections with other works that I already own. Having recently got myself a new hi-fi through which I can listen to good quality digital files - I thought to myself that this would be an opportunity to download single tracks instead of buying a whole lot of repetition.
> Wouldn't you know - the very tracks I want to download are only available 'Album Only'.
> What happened to the great new world of being able to download only the tracks you want. The track in this particular moment is just over 10 minutes. Why not charge double instead of completely vetoing it. AND then they complain that people pirate stuff.
> 
> Rant Over.


Have you tried multiple sites? In the days when I used to do downloads I found that there was often a site that would break up tracks on an album that was album-only elsewhere. If you haven't already, you might look for lists of online music stores and try them one-by-one.

*p.s.* If it's available in your region, I recall that eClassical.com was particularly reliable. You might be looking at $3-5 for a single track sometimes, but that's usually in cases where other sites wouldn't let you download it separately at all.

There was another good site with a yellow logo, but I can't remember it.


----------



## Dedalus

Why do musicians, especially quartets stand up and bow at the end of the performance, leave the stage, then come back and bow again? To me it's like the weirdest thing. Like often they'll even bow twice, leave the stage, then come back and bow twice. Is this some kind of tradition? It just seems entirely pointless. Why even leave the stage? Why not just stand there and let them applaud? Why bother leaving the stage just to come back literally seconds later just to bow twice again? I DON'T GET IT!


----------



## Becca

Dedalus said:


> Why do musicians, especially quartets stand up and bow at the end of the performance, leave the stage, then come back and bow again? To me it's like the weirdest thing. Like often they'll even bow twice, leave the stage, then come back and bow twice. Is this some kind of tradition? It just seems entirely pointless. Why even leave the stage? Why not just stand there and let them applaud? Why bother leaving the stage just to come back literally seconds later just to bow twice again? I DON'T GET IT!


They needed a beer before anything else


----------



## tdc

There is an image of the planet Pluto in Lukecash12's avatar. Does anybody else notice there is a likeness of the dog "Pluto" (Walt Disney cartoon character) on the planet Pluto? Is NASA trolling us, or what?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I drew Mendelssohn, co-starring J. S. Bach.


----------



## MagneticGhost

Blancrocher said:


> Have you tried multiple sites? In the days when I used to do downloads I found that there was often a site that would break up tracks on an album that was album-only elsewhere. If you haven't already, you might look for lists of online music stores and try them one-by-one.
> 
> *p.s.* If it's available in your region, I recall that eClassical.com was particularly reliable. You might be looking at $3-5 for a single track sometimes, but that's usually in cases where other sites wouldn't let you download it separately at all.
> 
> There was another good site with a yellow logo, but I can't remember it.


 Thank you.
For some reason - I always shop around when it comes to CDs but it didn't occur to me that I could do the same with digital.
Presto Classical was my answer. Each track or group of tracks is priced accordingly and the bitrate is a tidy 320 so all is good again with the world.


----------



## Weston

^Speaking of Holst, do you have the Costwald symphony? I just downloaded it (Naxos, JoAnn Falletta) and never even knew he wrote a symphony. The album has a couple of rare suites too, the Japan Suite and something else I can't remember. 

Some people say he never found a unique voice, but I disagree. Each work I've heard is quickly recognizable as Holst to me (unless of course it's that other Holst who also wrote symphonies).


----------



## MagneticGhost

^^^^yes I do. Quite a fun disc. Enjoyable music there-in.
And I do also think Holst has a unique voice. Certainly there is no-one else who sounds the exact same.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Well done! A nation salutes you.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

So I listened to some of Schoenberg's music the other day. It really sounds like "(/79jjsOO##jksi&@'".


----------



## Dim7

Abraham Lincoln said:


> So I listened to some of Schoenberg's music the other day. It really sounds like "(/79jjsOO##jksi&@'".


What pieces did you listen to?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Dim7 said:


> What pieces did you listen to?


The non-tonal ones.


----------



## Weston

I know how you feel, and you probably won't believe me if I tell you that "(/79jjsOO##jksi&@'" started sounding good to me eventually. 

But it does. Still not quite as moving as a common practice piece maybe, but intriguing in a different way.


----------



## Badinerie

Was that the Karajan "(/79jjsOO##jksi&@'" or the Boulez "(/79jjsOO##jksi&@'"?


----------



## Morimur

Stay away from Karajan (WOOOOOOSSSHHH)


----------



## Cheyenne

hpowders said:


> One of the most breathtaking (no pun intended) moments in all music for me is the amazing 3 1/2 minute English horn solo accompanied by soft tremolo strings from the first movement of the Shostakovich Symphony No. 8.
> 
> Amazing!!


I always loved this too! I really wish they would perform Shostakovich's 8th, but they seem to always perform 6 for its brief length or 5/7 for their fame. I'm hoping to see performance of 4, 8, 10, 14 and 15 some day!


----------



## hpowders

Cheyenne said:


> I always loved this too! I really wish they would perform Shostakovich's 8th, but they seem to always perform 6 for its brief length or 5/7 for their fame. I'm hoping to see performance of 4, 8, 10, 14 and 15 some day!


For audiences unfamiliar with the Shostakovich 4th, 8th and 10th, the concert experience can be "fidgety" with bored coughs drowning out the music. I like the 14th too-maybe his third best symphony after 4 and 8. I used to have the Ormandy performance-I think Phyllis Curtin and Simon Estes were the soloists. A very fine recording.

Wouldn't it be so nice if concert goers did their homework and actually became familiar with the music on upcoming concert programs.


----------



## JosefinaHW

Mahlerian said:


> On and off. During his college years, he joined the Wagner society, the members of which were pretty fanatical, and followed a lot of his more minor writings (he also joined a socialist group at this point, and had liberal leanings throughout his life). He moved away from the society when the group took an anti-Semitic turn.
> 
> Sometimes he would go on a vegetarian diet, but for the majority of his adult life he was not.


This depth of knowledge fascinates me... how do you know this, Mahlerian?


----------



## hpowders

MagneticGhost said:


> Grieg wrote a cello concerto!!!!
> Who knew?


His wife.


----------



## JosefinaHW

Blancrocher said:


> In the days when I used to do downloads ...


Why do you no longer download music? ... just buy CDs?


----------



## Mahlerian

JosefinaHW said:


> This depth of knowledge fascinates me... how do you know this, Mahlerian?


Lots of reading! I've read a number of Mahler biographies, including Henry Louis de la Grange's mammoth 4,000+ page, 4-volume tome, which discusses everything from the time Mahler stirred his coffee with a cigarette (he could be quite absentminded) to his relationship with mysticism and theosophy.


----------



## Morimur

Mahlerian said:


> ...Mahler stirred his coffee with a cigarette (he could be quite absentminded)...


Did he drink it?


----------



## hpowders

Dedalus said:


> Why do musicians, especially quartets stand up and bow at the end of the performance, leave the stage, then come back and bow again? To me it's like the weirdest thing. Like often they'll even bow twice, leave the stage, then come back and bow twice. Is this some kind of tradition? It just seems entirely pointless. Why even leave the stage? Why not just stand there and let them applaud? Why bother leaving the stage just to come back literally seconds later just to bow twice again? I DON'T GET IT!


Yes, it's a tradition, but believe me, if the applause stopped after they left the stage the first time, they wouldn't come back on stage a second time.

Blame the audience for continuing to applaud.

By the way, this occurs at orchestral concerts too.

I rarely go to live concerts anymore-too many distractions with the coughing, program page turning, snoring, competition for the armrests, coats draped over the seat back in front of me, waiting online for the bathroom, etc;

I much rather listen to CDs at home.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Only Gotterdamerung left and then no more Ring.  

I've complained about the music drama format and Wagner's style of vocal writing, but, as often happens, my love for even those parts I disliked before has grown in proportion to my memorization. Familiarization has sped up the pacing too.

All of those famous sentiments about Mozart bearing the "divine instinct" and, rather than composing, simply discovering perfectly proportioned material apply, for me, just as much to Wagner. You get tired of reading cheesy hyperbolic praise like that for anyone but I can't help it. 

I'm slowly collecting all-time favorite moments in Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Berlioz, Debussy, and especially Stravinsky, and I'd like to hum them all day at work too, but every time I stop to ponder and pick one of those moments I end up using the interim to hum Wotan's theme, which just leads to Notung's theme, which leads to every other phrase from the Ring I can recall. 

I mean I hate to be vulgar but everything else just sounds crappy in comparison to this music. It's like the formula for my taste is: "man I love X; it's the greatest thing I've ever heard... except for that one scene in the ring where someone talks about Wotan and his theme plays for a few seconds."

I thought I liked Berlioz as much until I heard the scene with Siegfried and the bird and experienced the physical symptoms of romantic infatuation. I can see where that obsessive Wagnerian stereotype comes from.


----------



## Weston

I'd love to watch the Ring Cycle again, but I want a traditional performance - none of these anachronistic World War II or conceptual arty "interpretations." I want viking helmets with horns!


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Weston said:


> I'd love to watch the Ring Cycle again, but I want a traditional performance - none of these anachronistic World War II or conceptual arty "interpretations." I want viking helmets with horns!


Definitely! When I first started sifting through youtube performances I went in with the attitude that the visuals, however silly, didn't matter and couldn't ruin the music if played well; three "rhine maidens" in modern day office chairs and an innumerable number of clowns later I realized how wrong I was.

Despite a few weird costumes here and there I think the Boulez Ring's cast will always star in my mental images of the music, especially its version of Loge.


----------



## hpowders

If someone considers Sibelius to be the greatest composer ever and quotes a reviewer to support his/her view, why on earth would anyone here be offended?

Tolerance is a virtue. Everyone here has their own favorite composers and needn't be humiliated for expressing a divergent view from anyone else.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Apparently this is supposed to be Bach.



















That looks more like Mahler to me, honestly.


----------



## Morimur

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Apparently this is supposed to be Bach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That looks more like Mahler to me, honestly.


It looks like neither.


----------



## tdc

I really like the ending of Prokofiev Symphony No. 2...colorful rich textures, and then subtle dissonant undertones - very nice.


----------



## Johnhanks

hpowders said:


> ... waiting online for the bathroom, etc...


Is there no activity that resists digitisation?


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I remember a poster relating that some of his friends disliked classical music because it "had no beat." I don't agree with that sentiment but I think I understand where it comes from, and it's a problem (maybe just my problem) I find with a lot of classical music but, to give a specific example, in _a lot_ of Mozart recordings.

For instance in many recordings of the clarinet concerto's first movement I find that, while every section of the orchestra is technically audible, only the main melody is quite loud enough to actually register as a texture in the sound, while the part of the music that you, if you had to, would call the "beat" is far too quiet to actually provide bounce and momentum the way it's supposed to. All throughout the piano concertos too I encounter this issue, the feeling that the sound is somehow "skeletal", as if only the instruments playing the primary melody in a given moment were even recorded.

It reminds me of another issue I had in transitioning to classical music, which was that, without the right recordings, even an enormous orchestra would sound airy to me compared to an electric guitar's expansive, distorted waves of sound or an 808's heavy thumps; it had nothing to do with complexity or the density of content in the actual music itself, but, I think, with how much power an orchestra can lose in the transition to headphones versus music that is tailored to headphones.

I listen to the electronica from a science fiction FPS videogame and it will have more bass and a generally more aggressive, palpable sound than the angriest Beethoven you can find without it being live, and I wonder sometimes if things like that are more the reason classical music turns so many people off, not so much the music itself.


----------



## Dim7

I find on the contrary that Classical era music like Mozart and also Baroque have a very clear beat to me. But Romantic era music often doesn't have a very clear "pulse" to my ears the way popular music has.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Dim7 said:


> I find on the contrary that Classical era music like Mozart and also Baroque have a very clear beat to me. But Romantic era music often doesn't have a very clear "pulse" to my ears the way popular music has.


Mozart's always been an anomaly for me in that way, and even then it's only with certain things - him excepted I one hundred percent agree. My thoughts were inspired more than anything by the romantic era symphonic stuff I've been listening to.


----------



## Wandering

Recently listened to Bernstein's Candide overture, it reminds me of the jubilant fast tempos in Prokofiev.


----------



## Becca

Weston said:


> I'd love to watch the Ring Cycle again, but I want a traditional performance - none of these anachronistic World War II or conceptual arty "interpretations." I want viking helmets with horns!


There is a slight problem there, the first thing they tell you at the Jorvik Viking Center in York is that Viking helmets didn't have horns


----------



## Wandering

I recently listened to Medea by Cherubini, I'm completely blown away by the finale. Years ago I'd read the story of Jason and the Argonauts in Edith Hamilton's Mythology. A small personal gem of a discovery, so much music so little time.


----------



## Johnhanks

Weston said:


> I'd love to watch the Ring Cycle again, but I want a traditional performance - none of these anachronistic World War II or conceptual arty "interpretations." I want viking helmets with horns!


In principle I'm with you all the way on this. I remember enjoying the Prologue of a not-bad _Götterdämmerung_, only to be dismayed when Act I opened with Gunther and Hagen in lounge suits drinking cocktails.

Trouble is, what does "anachronistic" mean for a drama that's not set in any real time period? There never was a time when Wotan, Valhalla and Valkyries existed, and the "traditional performances" you (and I) enjoy just dress the characters as a sort of Disneyfied version of the people who once believed in them (erroneous horns and all). Better that, though, than lounge suits...


----------



## Sloe

Weston said:


> I'd love to watch the Ring Cycle again, but I want a traditional performance - none of these anachronistic World War II or conceptual arty "interpretations." I want viking helmets with horns!


Vikings had no horns on their helmets.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I know Mozart's 35th symphony is one of the "other ones," but I find it just as melodic as the more famous symphonies. On a less positive note, I think the most interesting thing about the 36th symphony is the trivia about how quickly it was written.


----------



## Wandering

Sloe said:


> Vikings had no horns on their helmets.


I've learn to appreciate and find the humor in how everything we thought we knew in America f**ked up our young impressionable minds. I cannot tell a lie, the pilgrims were blessed by the gods with popping corn before they all starved to death, a few made it, I think?


----------



## Weston

Okay, folks. I knew viking's didn't wear horns. I was referring to how they might have been presented in Wagner's day, which I see was with wings rather than horns, but whatever . . . 

It's Wagner's opera cycle after all and staging was important to him. Shall we also play electric guitars and rap the libretto?


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Johnhanks said:


> Trouble is, what does "anachronistic" mean for a drama that's not set in any real time period? There never was a time when Wotan, Valhalla and Valkyries existed, and the "traditional performances" you (and I) enjoy just dress the characters as a sort of Disneyfied version of the people who once believed in them (erroneous horns and all). Better that, though, than lounge suits...


But then, Wagner's characters are likewise a sort of Disneyfied version of people who once believed in the Germanic gods.

I recently saw a production of Handel's _Acis and Galatea_ where everybody was dressed as early 18th century courtiers - which is of course just as wrong as lounge suits, but at least shows a comfort with the fashions of the time. Presumably, in another 150 years or so, we'll finally be far away enough from Wagner that everybody will be able to look at the costumes he wanted without saying "Ew, old people stuff."



Weston said:


> It's Wagner's opera cycle after all and staging was important to him. Shall we also play electric guitars and rap the libretto?


I'm all for it. Then we can all stop pretending that giving a platform to somebody else's second rate play is an adequate presentation of what Wagner (or whoever) wrote.


----------



## Johnhanks

Harold in Columbia said:


> But then, Wagner's characters are likewise a sort of Disneyfied version of people who once believed in the Germanic gods.


Good point.



Harold in Columbia said:


> I recently saw a production of Handel's _Acis and Galatea_ where everybody was dressed as early 18th century courtiers - which is of course just as wrong as lounge suits, but at least shows a comfort with the fashions of the time.


I know what you mean. An otherwise fine production of Berlioz's _Trojans _was marred for me when the Greek soldiers who accost Cassandra and the Trojan women at the end of Act II came on dressed as US marines straight out of _Platoon_, automatic weapons and all. Risible, I thought, just plain silly: what was the director thinking?

Then I thought further: how were Cassandra and the other women dressed? Not in authentic Trojan fashions, that's for sure - rather in generic 'classical' dresses that probably bore as much relation to authentic Trojan women's-wear as the soldiers' combat gear did to that of real Greek hoplites. So I had to admit to myself that my reaction to the anachronistic soldiers - that they were so stupefyingly absurd as to ruin an otherwise intensely moving scene - was an inconsistent one, as until then I'd had no problem with the women's anachronistic dresses. The question becomes, then, not 'can we stomach anachronism?' but 'how in-your-face does the anachronism have to be before we object?'.


----------



## Tristan

This isn't a random thought, so much as a question: why are third movements of Classical-era symphonies called "minuet and trio"? What's "trio" about the "trio" sections? As far as I know, a "trio" is a piece written for three instruments; unless there's some other meaning, I'm not clear on why the label "trio" is used here when there's no actual trio of three instruments.


----------



## Sloe

Weston said:


> Okay, folks. I knew viking's didn't wear horns. I was referring to how they might have been presented in Wagner's day, which I see was with wings rather than horns, but whatever . . .
> 
> It's Wagner's opera cycle after all and staging was important to him. Shall we also play electric guitars and rap the libretto?


It is not about vikings anyway.


----------



## Johnhanks

Tristan said:


> This isn't a random thought, so much as a question: why are third movements of Classical-era symphonies called "minuet and trio"? What's "trio" about the "trio" sections? As far as I know, a "trio" is a piece written for three instruments; unless there's some other meaning, I'm not clear on why the label "trio" is used here when there's no actual trio of three instruments.


From Wiki: "Around Lully's time it became a common practice to score this middle section for a trio (such as two oboes and a bassoon, as is common in Lully). As a result, this middle section came to be called the minuet's trio, even when no trace of such an orchestration remains."


----------



## Tristan

Johnhanks said:


> From Wiki: "Around Lully's time it became a common practice to score this middle section for a trio (such as two oboes and a bassoon, as is common in Lully). As a result, this middle section came to be called the minuet's trio, even when no trace of such an orchestration remains."


Interesting. So the "Trio" really just refers to the middle section of a minuet movement? Whether or not there's an actual trio?


----------



## Johnhanks

Tristan said:


> Interesting. So the "Trio" really just refers to the middle section of a minuet movement? Whether or not there's an actual trio?


Since Beethoven more commonly the middle section of a scherzo movement; and I can't think of a single example scored for just three instruments.


----------



## Taggart

*Vivaldi's violino in tromba marina*

Just read a fascinating review of La Serenissima performing Vivaldi's Four Seasons in Manchester in the Guardian

Apart from the score used in the concert - copied by Vivaldi's dad and bought as a job lot - the main interest is the use of the violino in tromba marina. Adrian Chandler, the director of La Serenissima, has a fascinating article on this in the Strad.. At least it beats the kazoos that I've heard in some of Lully's works!


----------



## Sloe

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I know Mozart's 35th symphony is one of the "other ones," but I find it just as melodic as the more famous symphonies. On a less positive note, I think the most interesting thing about the 36th symphony is the trivia about how quickly it was written.


Is it really one of the other ones?
I would say it is rather popular.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Sloe said:


> It is not about vikings anyway.


It kind of is. I mean, Wagner's Valhalla is supposed to be on a cliff overlooking the Rhine, but have you seen what passes for cliffs on the middle Rhine? (In pre-Christian times, the upper Rhine was Celtic, not Germanic.) Wagner was _so_ obviously thinking of the Scandinavian mountains.

(Just as his story comes from Scandinavian mythology and saga, because there was basically no pre-Christian German literature for him to work with.)


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Classical music, post-World War II, in the consciousness of the general public:

Minimalism and holy minimalism exist. (La Monte Young exists a second time over by way of influence on the Velvet Underground and everybody who was influenced by them.)

Xenakis, Ligeti, and Pendercki exist in horror movie scores (call it the Schönberg clause).

Stockhausen exists in the sound collages that everybody skips on late '60s pop albums.

John Cage exists by reputation as the @sshole who wrote that silent piece.

Boulez, spectral music, and musique concrète instrumental don't exist.


----------



## Weston

I heard some sinfonias by Jiri Antonin Benda today and found his style sounds so much like C.P.E. Bach I thought it really was C.P.E. Bach, in spite of not having much if any C.P.E. in my collection. 

Jiri Antonin of course wasn't one of the more famous of the Benda family of composers who in turn weren't all that famous either I suppose. The music is alright though.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Mods, don't infract me, please.


----------



## Guest

Just wanted to bump this thread since people seem to be forgetting its usefulness lately. Not to mention composer guestbooks.


----------



## Klassic

nathanb said:


> Just wanted to bump this thread since people seem to be forgetting its usefulness lately. Not to mention composer guestbooks.


Just wanted to thank you *nathanb* for being my number one fan here on Talk Classical, to think that you like me so much that you even count my threads both good and bad. Thanks. :wave:


----------



## Guest

Klassic said:


> Just wanted to thank you *nathanb* for being my number one fan here on Talk Classical, to think that you like me so much that you even count my threads both good and bad. Thanks. :wave:


I take notice of many things under the sun, yes.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

- Romanticism is avowedly elitist, and popular. Postmodernism is avowedly populist, and unpopular.

- It's not the most revolutionary ideas that people find most offensive, but rather the subsequent partial retrenchment, that attempts to systematize some of those ideas. i.e. The 12 tone system offended more than Expressionist atonality; and for the same reason, mature Wagner offended more than early Berlioz, Chopin, Schumann, and Liszt.

Edit: And, come to think of it, Philip Glass and even Steve Reich offend more than La Monte Young and Terry Riley. (And, uh, John Cage offends more than Henry Cowell? Maybe that one's a stretch.)


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Did you know that a theme from cello sonata G4 in A-major by Boccherini is very much like the theme from Black Adder (or the other way around). My wife discovered this and always pops up when I hear it  haha!


----------



## Klassic

Harold in Columbia said:


> Edit: And, come to think of it, Philip Glass and even Steve Reich offend more than La Monte Young and Terry Riley. (And, uh, John Cage offends more than Henry Cowell? Maybe that one's a stretch.)


Yes, but this is a fallacy. When you move to Reich and Cage you're talking equivocation.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Klassic said:


> When you move to Reich and Cage you're talking equivocation.


Huh? Meaning Reich's and Cage's music is equivocation, or... what?


----------



## Sloe

Harold in Columbia said:


> Edit: And, come to think of it, Philip Glass and even Steve Reich offend more than La Monte Young and Terry Riley. (And, uh, John Cage offends more than Henry Cowell? Maybe that one's a stretch.)


That is because more people have heard these composers so there are more to be offended. I don´t know what La Monte Young, Terry Riley and Henry Cowell sounds like so I can´t be offended by them. By the way hearing music one likes is not really offensive.


----------



## DeepR

If you know a piece really well and have listened to the same recording many times, you can put it on as background/wallpaper music while doing other things and you still get goosebumps right when you always get 'm.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Sloe said:


> That is because more people have heard these composers so there are more to be offended. I don´t know what La Monte Young, Terry Riley and Henry Cowell sounds like so I can´t be offended by them.


You should probably get on that. Maybe reassign the next two hours you were going to spend listening to Sibelius.

Anyway, Riley is pretty popular.


----------



## Sloe

Harold in Columbia said:


> You should probably get on that. Maybe reassign the next two hours you were going to spend listening to Sibelius.
> 
> Anyway, Riley is pretty popular.


I have no plans listening to Sibelius for the next two hours.
By the way I don´t have two hours of free time.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

I didn't mean right now - just, whenever you were next going to listen to him, listen to them instead.


----------



## Klassic

Listening to Mahler's 4th Symphony Abbado, does anyone have a better recommendation? My staple is the Karajan recording, but this Abbado is very nice.


----------



## Chronochromie

Klassic said:


> Listening to Mahler's 4th Symphony Abbado, does anyone have a better recommendation? My staple is the Karajan recording, but this Abbado is very nice.


I like Kubelik's.


----------



## Klassic

Also just started Mahler's 7th, playing Boulez, but very much like Bernstein. Any suggestions here?


----------



## Chronochromie

Klassic said:


> Also just started Mahler's 7th, playing Boulez, but very much like Bernstein. Any suggestions here?


Gielen. ...............


----------



## Mahlerian

Klassic said:


> Listening to Mahler's 4th Symphony Abbado, does anyone have a better recommendation? My staple is the Karajan recording, but this Abbado is very nice.


Klaus Tennstedt?


----------



## Klassic

Mahlerian said:


> Klaus Tennstedt?


I'll give it a listen. Thanks.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Mahler's Fourth? George Szell all the way! It's superlative.


----------



## Stirling

Another vote for Tennstedt


----------



## Stirling

Why do would be compose inflict banal works on us? There must be a neuro-reason.


----------



## Weston

Failure is the pathway to success.


----------



## Stirling

It takes a long time to create the begins of a piece of music. The rest is easy.


----------



## Becca

Klassic said:


> Listening to Mahler's 4th Symphony Abbado, does anyone have a better recommendation? My staple is the Karajan recording, but this Abbado is very nice.


Yes, assuming that you have access to the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall. There is a performance with Rattle conducting with Christine Shafer which has to be the best I have heard. The first time that I heard it, I was very struck by how Shafer did the last stanza sotto-voce, something that I don't remember having heard before. I asked our resident Mahlerian about that, he consulted the score and said that indeed there was such an indication. I should note that my previous favourite had been Tennstedt's recording.


----------



## Guest

Stirling said:


> It takes a long time to create the begins of a piece of music. The rest is easy.


I disagree based on relatively limited experience.


----------



## violadude

Mozart listening to Bruckner for the first time:

Mein Gott! This is the longest slow introduction I've ever heard!


----------



## DeepR

Sibelius 7 > all. Just saying.
Also, I have a bad case of first recording syndrome.


----------



## Stirling

_I disagree based on relatively limited experience.[\i]

This should be a thread._


----------



## Klassic

Let me repeat myself because this is worth repeating:

Dear god this symphony is so damn wonderful; full of beauty. I wonder why more people don't know about this guy:

*alfredo casella symphony no.1*






Thanks for all the Mahler recommendations.


----------



## Klassic

[deleted because it deserved its own thread.]


----------



## Sloe

Klassic said:


> Let me repeat myself because this is worth repeating:
> 
> Dear god this symphony is so damn wonderful; full of beauty. I wonder why more people don't know about this guy:
> 
> *alfredo casella symphony no.1*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the Mahler recommendations.


I have tried to listen Casella and must say there is something that stops me from really enjoying it. I prefer his Italian contemporaries Gian Francesco Malipiero and Ildebrando Pizzetti.


----------



## Weston

Klassic said:


> Let me repeat myself because this is worth repeating:
> 
> Dear god this symphony is so damn wonderful; full of beauty. I wonder why more people don't know about this guy:
> 
> *alfredo casella symphony no.1*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the Mahler recommendations.


Sampling it, I like what I'm hearing. Nice memorable themes. That's probably why no one has heard of him.


----------



## Klassic

Weston said:


> Sampling it, I like what I'm hearing. Nice memorable themes. That's probably why no one has heard of him.


No, they're there, just subtle. I often wish I could walk a person through a symphony in person. Sometimes I think about extracting individual parts, as I believe this helps people to assimilate the music. It always takes time to learn a new composer's voice.


----------



## tdc

I love the climactic ending of Prokofiev Symphony No. 4 (revised).


----------



## Stirling

I need to run a Haydn SQ marathon again.


----------



## Balthazar

Did anyone do this Thursday's New York Times crossword puzzle by Andrew Zhou? It had a very clever music-related twist to it -- check it out if you can.

For those who get it in syndication I think it should appear next week.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

There is a Borneo Begonia called 'B. darthvaderiana'. This is the sad state of culture.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Just finished watching this film called Mein Name ist Bach. Their depiction of J. S. Bach is really great, but I kind of want to punch Friedemann.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Well since there isn't a non-musical version of this thread in the Community thread, but I don't want to make one there because that would be overkill, I'll post this here:

I basically have this condition, only instead of lasting a few days or a week, it's lasted 8 years... LOL

http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/theres-a-name-for-that-the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon-59670

I guess this _is _a music-related discovery then, for me anyhow...


----------



## Harold in Columbia

It's probably symbolic of something that one of Steve Reich's first important works is a defense of the participants in the 1964 Harlem riot - an at least modestly gutsy thing to do in 1966 - while the most celebrated work of his later career is about how the Holocaust was bad, which is a good candidate for the least controversial opinion in the world.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Eduard Napravnik, Czech conductor who made it big in Russia, was the Mravinsky or Karajan of his time. He's most famous for conducting premieres of a ton of Russian operas, and the 2nd fateful performance of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony No. 6. A very important man in the Russian musical world although not known as a composer (though I listened to some of this music this evening and it was satisfactory):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_N%C3%A1pravn%C3%ADk

And apparently Dostoevsky thought he was important too! I completely missed that in reading the _Brothers Karamazov_ that Napravnik was mentioned as "our well-known Russian orchestra conductor." (I'm quoting from the wikipedia article).

Well then, if someone obscure like him gets named in one of the most famous Russian novels of all time, that _means _something, no? And not a single Russian _composer _was ever mentioned.


----------



## DeepR

Richannes Wrahms said:


> There is a Borneo Begonia called 'B. darthvaderiana'. This is the sad state of culture.
> 
> View attachment 82203


I find your lack of faith disturbing.


----------



## Guest

Richannes Wrahms said:


> There is a Borneo Begonia called 'B. darthvaderiana'. This is the sad state of culture.
> 
> View attachment 82203


Like rhubarb, it can be Forced.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

- [I posted this is another thread, thought it'd be appropriate here, too] Just got my tickets for Beethoven's Ninth and Bernstein for this upcoming Friday (March 18th)! I'm beyond excited, I have dreamt of the opportunity to see Beethoven's Ninth in person, and it's finally happening. http://www.houstonsymphony.org/tickets/production/detail?id=6567

- _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ is my favorite piece of music right now.


----------



## hpowders

I thank God for composers like Shostakovich, Ives, Schuman and Bach, because if there were only Schubert, Debussy and Bruckner to choose from, I would have surely become a Grateful Deadhead instead of classical music lover.

No doubt about it!


----------



## Klassic

A recent scientific study proves that people who prefer Mozart to Schoenberg have more boring sex lives.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I had a tired but wonderful. Today I met a guy who likes classical music. We talked for a while. I even recommend him to listen Mahler fifth symphony. He didn't know the composer. He said he would listen the symphony on his way to home.


----------



## Weston

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I had a tired but wonderful. Today I met a guy who likes classical music. We talked for a while. I even recommend him to listen Mahler fifth symphony. He didn't know the composer. He said he would listen the symphony on his way to home.


I'd wager you made his day as much or even more than he made yours. Real CM aficionados are such a rarity.


----------



## Pugg

Klassic said:


> A recent scientific study proves that people who prefer Mozart to Schoenberg have more boring sex lives.


Definitely not true :cheers:


----------



## Klassic

Pugg said:


> Definitely not true :cheers:


The study also found that Mozart fans are 10 times more likely to be in denial.


----------



## Guest

A recent scientific study proves that people who prefer Palestrina to Schoenberg have intrinsic dormant sex lives.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Klassic said:



A recent scientific study proves that people who prefer Mozart to Schoenberg have more boring sex lives.

Click to expand...

*









Romance isn't a science- or an arid musical formula- its a heart.

Did Schoenberg even 'like' sex?


----------



## Morimur

Marschallin Blair said:


> Did Schoenberg even 'like' sex?


No, he liked tennis.


----------



## Klassic

Marschallin Blair said:


> Did Schoenberg even 'like' sex?


Nice try but the study was about their music not their sex lives.


----------



## Morimur

Klassic said:


> Nice try but the study was about their music not their sex lives.


Klassic, were you born yesterday? Don't you know that _everything_ humans do leads right back to sex?

Geesh!


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Marschallin Blair said:


> ...an arid musical formula...


TFW somebody accidentally refutes themselves.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Harold in Columbia said:



TFW somebody accidentally refutes themselves.

Click to expand...

*









Is that what the Straw Troll said?

I don't follow the polling of the masses.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Few things are more in line with mass opinion than an ignorant hatred of Schönberg.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Harold in Columbia said:


> Few things are more in line with mass opinion than an ignorant hatred of Schönberg.












. . . except for taste.

Or lack thereof.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Yeah, but you like Richard Strauss.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Harold in Columbia said:



Yeah, but you like Richard Strauss.

Click to expand...

*









Interesting non sequitur.

-Yes, I do.

How many _Rosenkavaliers_ did Schoenberg write again?


----------



## Harold in Columbia

One, but he called it _Pierrot lunaire_ and it's better.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Harold in Columbia said:



One, but he called it Pierrot lunaire and it's better.

Click to expand...

*I always found a polyjester in polyester to be the stuff of carnivals.

- But that's just me.

[Admin note: Copyrighted image deleted]


----------



## Harold in Columbia

_Pierrot lunaire_ is sung by a girl in a dress.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Harold in Columbia said:


> _Pierrot lunaire_ is sung by a girl in a dress.


But even if he's toupee a lot of money, he's still a bald clown in a dress.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

You should make your sentences even more incoherent. Then we'll be really distracted from the fact that you didn't know what the correct costume is for _Pierrot lunaire_.

We might even not notice that you also just accidentally gave away that you don't even know it's written for a female voice (and therefore also that you've never actually heard it).


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Harold in Columbia said:



You should make your sentences even more incoherent. Then we'll be really distracted from the fact that you didn't know what the correct costume is for Pierrot lunaire.

We might even not notice that you also just accidentally gave away that you don't even know it's written for a female voice (and therefore also that you've never actually heard it).

Click to expand...

*









'Of course' I know it was written for female voice- I actually like it (and Chrissy Schaefer sounds cute on the Boulez recording).

I just don't care for bald clowns.

[Admin edit: copyrighted image removed]


----------



## KenOC

Marschallin Blair said:


> But even if he's toupee a lot of money, he's still a bald clown in a dress.


Actually the hair is real. A few weeks back he was asked about it at a rally and invited the lady to come up on stage and pull his hair. She did.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Today while I was listening Wagner's Prelude to Act One from Lohengrin, my mom said: "I like this music. It is quiet. This music is very relaxing. Relax a lot." What the ****!!!


----------



## JosefinaHW

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Today while I was listening Wagner's Prelude to Act One from Lohengrin, my mom said: "I like this music. It is quiet. This music is very relaxing. Relax a lot." What the ****!!!


I would agree with your mom; as a stand alone piece of music I think it is calming--the music is relatively quiet, there aren't big leaps of pitch, the sound of the strings is very much like a very slow rocking motion. This goes on for quite a long time, long enough to still your heart and your mind. Then you are taken to a calm place (if you let yourself) and your soul/emotional center is open to the gorgeous music that enters later. IMO


----------



## JosefinaHW

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Today while I was listening Wagner's Prelude to Act One from Lohengrin, my mom said: "I like this music. It is quiet. This music is very relaxing. Relax a lot." What the ****!!!


What does the music do to your body, mind and soul?


----------



## Becca

JosefinaHW said:


> I would agree with your mom; as a stand alone piece of music I think it is calming--the music is relatively quiet, there aren't big leaps of pitch, the sound of the strings is very much like a very slow rocking motion. This goes on for quite a long time, long enough to still your heart and your mind. Then you are taken to a calm place (if you let yourself) and your soul/emotional center is open to the gorgeous music that enters later. IMO


Have you watched the DCH program where Simon Rattle conducts the Lohengrin act 1 prelude and follows it without a break into Ligeti's _Atmospheres_? Sounds like a strange combination but it _kinda_ works on some level.


----------



## JosefinaHW

Becca said:


> Have you watched the DCH program where Simon Rattle conducts the Lohengrin act 1 prelude and follows it without a break into Ligeti's _Atmospheres_? Sounds like a strange combination but it _kinda_ works on some level.


Hi Becca, No I have not watched that concert on DCH. (All my music related sites were accessed with the e-mail address that I can no longer access-so I'm waiting for the DCH to reset my account.) I had never listened to _Atmospheres_ until you sent me this post. I went to ClassicsOnline and listened to the Stuggart Philharmonic performance. At of this moment in my life and music education I find the piece disturbing to my ears, mind and overall nervous system. I think the Wagner is gorgeous. Once I can get back in I will watch it on the DCH: if Simon Rattle thought it important enough to perform I will keep an open mind. Would YOU play that piece for enjoyment? If so, why?


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

JosefinaHW said:


> What does the music do to your body, mind and soul?


Yes, It's quiet. Relaxing no. The music transmits me more than that.


----------



## JosefinaHW

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Yes, It's quiet. Relaxing no. The music transmits me more than that.


Don't feel pressured to answer but what else does it transmit to you? There is no right or wrong answers here. IMO this is one of those pieces of music that will sound several different ways at different moments and moods in my life--I think that goes with all amazing pieces of art. I would add to what I said before that the music is very beautiful and has a great melancholy to it. In my experience melancholy is a low energy feeling--one can be relaxed and melancholy at the same time. It's a state of quiet acceptance of something that you know will pass or that you've learned to live with. If that makes any sense to you.


----------



## Dim7

Composers, for ***** sake stop spelling names with notes. It's not clever, it's lame! Choose the notes based on their sound only.


----------



## Weston

JosefinaHW said:


> Would YOU play that piece for enjoyment? If so, why?


Since it (Atmospheres) was used as a major part of the soundtrack for 2001:a space odyssey, I've been enjoying it since I was about 12 years old. I don't find it disturbing probably because of the early exposure. It in fact sounds quite sonorous and lovely in places. I confess there is a very high piccolo part about a third of the way through that does grate on my ears a bit, but it's brief.


----------



## Klassic

I just realized that Mahler was a musical faker, practicing the art of emotional manipulation.


----------



## tortkis

Dim7 said:


> Composers, for ***** sake stop spelling names with notes. It's not clever, it's lame! Choose the notes based on their sound only.


Agreed, but HAYDN is a cute melody.


----------



## Becca

JosefinaHW said:


> Hi Becca, No I have not watched that concert on DCH. (All my music related sites were accessed with the e-mail address that I can no longer access-so I'm waiting for the DCH to reset my account.) I had never listened to _Atmospheres_ until you sent me this post. I went to ClassicsOnline and listened to the Stuggart Philharmonic performance. At of this moment in my life and music education I find the piece disturbing to my ears, mind and overall nervous system. I think the Wagner is gorgeous. Once I can get back in I will watch it on the DCH: if Simon Rattle thought it important enough to perform I will keep an open mind. Would YOU play that piece for enjoyment? If so, why?


I have in the past but not for a long time and I wouldn't expect it to be a piece that I return to very often. As noted in another post, the piece does was used in a very influential movie almost 50 years ago, the same movie in which the start of Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra was used (and the other Strauss' Blue Danube!). I seem to have seen Rattle talking about his reasoning for coupling the two works but I can't find it now. Basically it has to do with the arc of the two pieces seeming to fit together.

Incidentally, when you do go to the DCH site, you will have a very hard time finding the concert given the way that they have it catalogued, so here is the link to the November 13, 2012 concert ... https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/3801


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

JosefinaHW said:


> Hi Becca, No I have not watched that concert on DCH. (All my music related sites were accessed with the e-mail address that I can no longer access-so I'm waiting for the DCH to reset my account.) I had never listened to _Atmospheres_ until you sent me this post. I went to ClassicsOnline and listened to the Stuggart Philharmonic performance. At of this moment in my life and music education I find the piece disturbing to my ears, mind and overall nervous system. I think the Wagner is gorgeous. Once I can get back in I will watch it on the DCH: if Simon Rattle thought it important enough to perform I will keep an open mind. Would YOU play that piece for enjoyment? If so, why?


Well that means it's does something to you which is better than nothing.

Ligeti's objective was complete statism, it's nearest predecessors in music history where the Prelude to Das Rheingold, Schoenberg's Farben and Bartok's Prelude to The Wooden Prince.

Musically there are a number of points:


Harmony made up of large chromatic clusters often containing every note in the span of various octaves.

Construction of large scale canonic textures out of a multitude of lines themselves of narrow range, each going at their own pace with their own rhythms.

Juxtaposing of textures, often opposite procedures (ex. when the strings accelerate the woodwinds do the opposite).

No overall rhythm.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Ligeti's objective was complete statism, it's nearest predecessors in music history where the Prelude to Das Rheingold, Schoenberg's Farben and Bartok's Prelude to The Wooden Prince.


More than any of those, or anything else, I would say "Atmospheres" sounds like Bartók's "night music." e.g. 




And maybe therefore, by extension, like a brief moment toward the beginning of Debussy's "...the engulfed cathedral": 




(Bartók has examples of night music that predate Debussy's preludes - the 12th of the 14 bagatelles, op. 6 - and even apparently his knowledge of anything by Debussy - the andante from the 2nd suite for orchestra - but those don't yet sound much like Ligeti.)


----------



## JosefinaHW

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Well that means it's does something to you which is better than nothing.
> 
> Ligeti's objective was complete statism, it's nearest predecessors in music history where the Prelude to Das Rheingold, Schoenberg's Farben and Bartok's Prelude to The Wooden Prince.
> 
> Musically there are a number of points:
> 
> 
> Harmony made up of large chromatic clusters often containing every note in the span of various octaves.
> 
> Construction of large scale canonic textures out of a multitude of lines themselves of narrow range, each going at their own pace with their own rhythms.
> 
> Juxtaposing of textures, often opposite procedures (ex. when the strings accelerate the woodwinds do the opposite).
> 
> No overall rhythm.





Richannes Wrahms said:


> Well that means it's does something to you which is better than nothing.
> 
> Ligeti's objective was complete statism, it's nearest predecessors in music history where the Prelude to Das Rheingold, Schoenberg's Farben and Bartok's Prelude to The Wooden Prince.
> 
> Musically there are a number of points:
> 
> 
> Harmony made up of large chromatic clusters often containing every note in the span of various octaves.
> 
> Construction of large scale canonic textures out of a multitude of lines themselves of narrow range, each going at their own pace with their own rhythms.
> 
> Juxtaposing of textures, often opposite procedures (ex. when the strings accelerate the woodwinds do the opposite).
> 
> No overall rhythm.


(First, I'd like to say that I have a very open mind towards music that doesn't give me pleasure or that irritates and disturbs me. My Walter Piston's _Harmony_ arrives tomorrow so I have a long way to go before my ear is trained to better understand.) This is what I found re/ political statism/centralization that makes sense to me: denounces the falsehood of the centrality of any racial, ethnical, gender, social class, budgetary, health care needs, etc. element in a consideration of what is best for a society; they need to be integrated. As a layperson in this area I've agreed with this concept for a very long time--I also believe this is true of the study of medicine/the body--as an organism you have to consider the whole when you go to treat a dis-ease..... I see In "Toward an Aesthetic of Cognitive Parametric Music" Busevin Egido wants to make people aware of this political/sociological/philosophical concept via music. A type of music that does not let any one parameter of music be focused upon: rhythm, texture, the examples you gave above.... (the harmony contains so many pitches they sort of cancel each other out?? like the color white is all the colors of the spectrum and "neutralizes" the appearance of any one of them.... I think I understand what you are saying.... plz tell me if I am not...

As I said as a layperson I have agreed with this concept of considering as many parameters as possible when analyzing any problem or system... Maybe not being a very poetic person I don't think I need music to teach me this; I don't think music has taught me this. To be honest I don't know that my mind would make that tremendous leap. Let me ask you then, if I am already at the place where this type of composer wants me to be, I really don't need to listen to their music? I could say to Ligeti, hey I understand what you are trying to achieve, I agree with it, I try to live it, so I don't need to like your music...


----------



## JosefinaHW

_Prelude_ to_ Das Rheingold_... Yes, I can see what Wagner was trying to do in light of what you have described. As much as I adore Haydn's _The Creation, Chaos_.... it doesn't sound like that... a statist/centralist type of piece would really be more effective there.... I'd like to see a contemporary composer do that while still conveying that beauty that Haydn's does... probably not possible??!??


----------



## JosefinaHW

Weston said:


> Since it (Atmospheres) was used as a major part of the soundtrack for 2001:a space odyssey, I've been enjoying it since I was about 12 years old. I don't find it disturbing probably because of the early exposure. It in fact sounds quite sonorous and lovely in places. I confess there is a very high piccolo part about a third of the way through that does grate on my ears a bit, but it's brief.


And Becca: your comments re/ _2001: Space Odyssey_.

I was very young when I saw 2001. I was a Trekkie and a Star Wars fan so I think that's what led me to 2001. I suppose I was just not ready to see that film at that age or that moment. Apart from the Sunrise and the _ASZ_ and the _Blue Danube_ and the space station I remember feeling very creeped-out by that film. We know kids' brains can be like sponges so maybe my subconscious/primal networks remember _Atmospheres_ and the memory is associated with those negative feelings. ?


----------



## Weston

^Could be. I was creeped out too at times, though I was on the verge of my teen years. The Ligeti Requiem used for the sound of the monolith is even creepier, yet I kept coming back to it. I never professed to understand the film fully, but it certainly was a life changing experience for me.


----------



## JosefinaHW

Becca said:


> Have you watched the DCH program where Simon Rattle conducts the Lohengrin act 1 prelude and follows it without a break into Ligeti's _Atmospheres_? Sounds like a strange combination but it _kinda_ works on some level.


Hi Becca, I watched the_ Atmospheres_/_Prelude to Lohengrin_ performance. I was entranced! I am amazed by the sound that is produced while watching the musicians. If it is true that Ligeti wanted to lose the individual into the whole he really did succeed in many parts. I am looking forward to watching that performance repeatedly to try and hear the individual musicians.

The combination of the two pieces was wonderful--very creative idea. I posted on here somewhere that a statist/centralist composed piece would be more representative of the _Chaos_ in Haydn's _Creation_--now I can definitely imagine that but it is better used here as a prelude (undifferentiated whole) gradually differentiating thru the entire Wagner prelude: it is a new Creation piece. Thank you so much for recommending this! And I just have to say it again: the DCH is absolutely wonderful!


----------



## JosefinaHW

Weston said:


> ^Could be. I was creeped out too at times, though I was on the verge of my teen years. The Ligeti Requiem used for the sound of the monolith is even creepier, yet I kept coming back to it. I never professed to understand the film fully, but it certainly was a life changing experience for me.


I absolutely agree that the film had a great impact on me too: I have never forgotten the scene where we learn to use a tool for the first time. I rented _2001_ on Amazon video during this conversation (that new X-Ray function is amazing)--I wanted to see where the different pieces of music were used and I remember the_ Requiem_. The Berlin Philharmonic also performed that piece and I am going to watch that concert tonight hopefully.


----------



## Balthazar

*Mahler's 4th and Fidelio*

Listening to the opening of the third movement of Mahler's Symphony No. 4 lately, visions of Lucia Popp kept flashing before my eyes.

It took me some time to figure it out, but it strikes me that the first 20 seconds or so are extraordinarily similar to the instrumental introduction to Beethoven's "Canon Quartet" from _Fidelio_ (_Mir ist so wunderbar)_. The similarity is even more apparent with the Bernstein Mahler recording I've been listening to. I am curious to compare the scores.


----------



## Guest

Eventually all random thoughts and discoveries that don't deserve a whole thread to themselves will be like this.


----------



## Guest

These thoughts ain't even random. We need a randomly generated thoughts thread.


----------



## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> And Becca: your comments re/ _2001: Space Odyssey_.
> 
> I was very young when I saw 2001. I was a Trekkie and a Star Wars fan so I think that's what led me to 2001. I suppose I was just not ready to see that film at that age or that moment. Apart from the Sunrise and the _ASZ_ and the _Blue Danube_ and the space station I remember feeling very creeped-out by that film. We know kids' brains can be like sponges so maybe my subconscious/primal networks remember _Atmospheres_ and the memory is associated with those negative feelings. ?


I certainly had to move beyond _The Shining_ when I first started listening to Penderecki... Watched that movie with my brother when I was like, 12, and had nightmares for the rest of the weekend...


----------



## hpowders

Why is so much time seemingly spent on extra-forum sites, concerning rules of this forum and why they should be changed; "ignore" lists; "like" or "don't like" mechanisms.

How about simply interacting with other posters for the love of the music?


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> Why is so much time seemingly spent on extra-forum sites, concerning rules of this forum and why they should be changed; "ignore" lists; "like" or "don't like" mechanisms.
> 
> How about simply interacting with other posters for the love of the music?


What do you mean by "extra forum sites" ?


----------



## Harold in Columbia

TFW you read Robin Maconie's interesting case that the flutes-timpani scoring of the "Interlude" from Stravinsky's _Requiem Canticles_ is inspired by the combination of electronically generated pure tones in Stockhausen's _Electronic Study_ No. 2; remember Kyle Gann's finding those same soft flutes similar to late Morton Feldman, and even to things Feldman was already doing when Stravinsky wrote his piece; and realize that Morton Feldman is maybe essentially Stockhausen with the loud parts taken out (and crossed with Steve Reich).

(Which would make Stockhausen's "Your music could be a moment in my music" simply correct.)


----------



## hpowders

dogen said:


> What do you mean by "extra forum sites" ?


Extra forum sites- places on TC that have nothing to do with discussion about classical music and specifically have to do with governing rules and regulations. The discussion of music has and shouldn't have anything to do with that stuff.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

You know about the 6 degrees of separation theory? ... I discovered that I have only TWO degrees of separation from *insert the obvious here* because I found out someone I've been recently acquainted with knew an (adopted) family member of this individual... and relayed these memories of their conversations to me personally... I haven't told anyone in real life yet because of a kind of sheer embarrassment at my own elation... If I'm a nut online, how much more with my own family?

Now that'll be 3 degrees of separation to you guys...


----------



## JosefinaHW

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . except for taste.
> 
> Or lack thereof.


You're gonna' get banned again! I'll miss you if you do.


----------



## EdwardBast

Dim7 said:


> Composers, for ***** sake stop spelling names with notes. It's not clever, it's lame! Choose the notes based on their sound only.


I wonder if you will maintain this opinion after hearing the slow movement of this symphony by CPE Bach, on B-A-C-H (in the bass line from the beginning of the slow movement, although in low period tuning)? It is powerful and harrowing, due primarily to the signature motive.  Listen from the beginning of the symphony, however, since the entrance of the signature motive in context is important.


----------



## Klassic

"At the serious end of the repertoire, therefore, ideas have taken over. It is not music that we hear in the world of Stockhausen but philosophy—second-rate philosophy to be sure, but philosophy all the same. ...There is a philosophy behind this stuff, and if ordinary people protest that it doesn’t look right, that it doesn’t fit in, or that it is offensive to all natural standards of visual harmony, they will be answered with fragments of that philosophy, in which abstract concepts extinguish the demands of visual taste. These buildings, they will be told, provide a pioneering use of space, are breaking new ground in built form, are an exciting challenge to orthodoxies, resonate with modern life. But just why those properties are virtues, and just how they make themselves known in the result, are questions that receive no answer."

But wait for it........ wait for it......... wait....... "And the same is true of other art forms that are cut loose from their cultural and religious foundations." Bang! There we have it, stupidity personified. This Scruton fella is glorious reading in comedy and reaction, poor Scruton he's so serious, it must be hard to know exactly how things are supposed to be.

Source: purposely not mentioned, just know it's by the musical and philosophical genius Roger Scruton.


----------



## Woodduck

Klassic said:


> "At the serious end of the repertoire, therefore, ideas have taken over. It is not music that we hear in the world of Stockhausen but philosophy-second-rate philosophy to be sure, but philosophy all the same. ...There is a philosophy behind this stuff, and if ordinary people protest that it doesn't look right, that it doesn't fit in, or that it is offensive to all natural standards of visual harmony, they will be answered with fragments of that philosophy, in which abstract concepts extinguish the demands of visual taste. These buildings, they will be told, provide a pioneering use of space, are breaking new ground in built form, are an exciting challenge to orthodoxies, resonate with modern life. But just why those properties are virtues, and just how they make themselves known in the result, are questions that receive no answer."
> 
> But wait for it........ wait for it......... wait....... "And the same is true of other art forms that are cut loose from their cultural and religious foundations." Bang! There we have it, stupidity personified. This Scruton fella is glorious reading in comedy and reaction, poor Scruton he's so serious, it must be hard to know exactly how things are supposed to be.
> 
> Source: purposely not mentioned, just know it's by the musical and philosophical genius Roger Scruton.


What is it you think he's saying that is "stupidity personified?" It looks to me as if he's describing the phenomenon that Tom Wolfe wrote about in "The Painted Word": art whose meaning, comprehensibility, and value reside not primarily in the art object itself but in the "philosophy" - the ideas or concepts - which purport to explain and justify it. Do you not think there is such a phenomenon? Or do you think he's saying something else?


----------



## Bernamej

Have you heard it?


----------



## Guest

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You know about the 6 degrees of separation theory? ... I discovered that I have only TWO degrees of separation from *insert the obvious here* because I found out someone I've been recently acquainted with knew an (adopted) family member of this individual... and relayed these memories of their conversations to me personally... I haven't told anyone in real life yet because of a kind of sheer embarrassment at my own elation... If I'm a nut online, how much more with my own family?
> 
> Now that'll be 3 degrees of separation to you guys...


You > Your Acquaintance > Family Member > Individual

= Three degrees, sorry


----------



## Klassic

Woodduck said:


> What is it you think he's saying that is "stupidity personified?"


To "cut" art "loose" from its "cultural" and "religious foundations..." which speaks of adherence to assumptions on the basis of mere authority alone (_because they are from antiquity_) and thereof truly valuable (_oh yes, so valuable_)... hence all we are left with is "second-rate philosophy"... say hello to the idiot of the future: Roger Scruton, reactionary, elitist prig. Just because Mr. Scrotum doesn't find any musical value in Stockhausen (insofar as it departs from his ancient, self-righteous moralism) doesn't mean that all is lost, or for that matter, that value is lacking. Dare Scruton should ever meet me in a dark philosophical alley I would reduce his authoritarian assertions to ashes, he will taste both the power of Varese and Schoenberg as he stands there soiling himself in the street. Men like him have been around since the time of Governor Wallace; they are the kind of men that seek to stop Mahler and Schoenberg, only to praise them 1000 years later because that's how long it takes them to progress past their primitive superstitions (and I am not here merely referring to God). Hopefully Scruton reads this.


----------



## dgee

Woodduck said:


> What is it you think he's saying that is "stupidity personified?" It looks to me as if he's describing the phenomenon that Tom Wolfe wrote about in "The Painted Word": art whose meaning, comprehensibility, and value reside not primarily in the art object itself but in the "philosophy" - the ideas or concepts - which purport to explain and justify it. Do you not think there is such a phenomenon? Or do you think he's saying something else?


And more importantly, according to Scruton, am I getting it wrong when I enjoy listening to Stockhausen?


----------



## Weston

I get people with black and white composer avatars confused, especially hpowders and KenOC, though their posting styles are nothing at all alike. I am visually oriented to the point of debilitation.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Weston said:


> I get people with black and white composer avatars confused, especially hpowders and KenOC, though their posting styles are nothing at all alike. I am visually oriented to the point of debilitation.


Am I one of them? Just curious. :O


----------



## Weston

^No. Your avatar is not the composer-looking-serious-for-a-publicity-photo kind of thing.

Not that any of that is a problem. It's just something I noticed about how I respond to avatars.


----------



## Woodduck

Klassic said:


> To "cut" art "loose" from its "cultural" and "religious foundations..." which speaks of adherence to assumptions on the basis of mere authority alone (_because they are from antiquity_) and thereof truly valuable (_oh yes, so valuable_)... hence all we are left with is "second-rate philosophy"... say hello to the idiot of the future: Roger Scruton, reactionary, elitist prig. Just because Mr. Scrotum doesn't find any musical value in Stockhausen (insofar as it departs from his ancient, self-righteous moralism) doesn't mean that all is lost, or for that matter, that value is lacking. Dare Scruton should ever meet me in a dark philosophical alley I would reduce his authoritarian assertions to ashes, he will taste both the power of Varese and Schoenberg as he stands there soiling himself in the street. Men like him have been around since the time of Governor Wallace; they are the kind of men that seek to stop Mahler and Schoenberg, only to praise them 1000 years later because that's how long it takes them to progress past their primitive superstitions (and I am not here merely referring to God). Hopefully Scruton reads this.


You may disagree with Scruton's views (which I doubt that you understand as well as you think you do), but you're not making much of a case for any other. "Stupidity personified," "idiot of the future," "reactionary, elitist prig," "soiling himself in the street," "primitive superstitions"... Gosh, wouldn't one well-chosen word of disparagement do the trick?

I'm sure Scruton _won't_ be reading it, but he'd probably just have a hearty snort if he did.


----------



## Woodduck

dgee said:


> And more importantly, according to Scruton, am I getting it wrong when I enjoy listening to Stockhausen?


I wouldn't attempt to speak for Scruton or for what you might be getting wrong.


----------



## hpowders

Has anyone written greater (and longer) vocal music for one word as Handel's final "Amen" from Messiah?


----------



## Pugg

Mozart; Alleluia from Exsultate Jubilate :tiphat:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Klassic said:


> To "cut" art "loose" from its "cultural" and "religious foundations..." which speaks of adherence to assumptions on the basis of mere authority alone (_because they are from antiquity_) and thereof truly valuable (_oh yes, so valuable_)... hence all we are left with is "second-rate philosophy"... say hello to the idiot of the future: Roger Scruton, reactionary, elitist prig. Just because Mr. Scrotum doesn't find any musical value in Stockhausen (insofar as it departs from his ancient, self-righteous moralism) doesn't mean that all is lost, or for that matter, that value is lacking.* Dare Scruton should ever meet me in a dark philosophical alley I would reduce his authoritarian assertions to ashes* , *he will taste both the power of Varese and Schoenberg as he stands there soiling himself in the street.* Men like him have been around since the time of Governor Wallace; they are the kind of men that seek to stop Mahler and Schoenberg, only to praise them 1000 years later because that's how long it takes them to progress past their primitive superstitions (and I am not here merely referring to God). Hopefully Scruton reads this.


Why meet Roger Scruton in a dark alley?

Why not meet him in the broad daylight of a candid world?

With acolytes of Varese and Schoenberg as heavy cavalry, somehow I find that Scruton wouldn't be the only one collapsing into gales of laughter from the putative opposition.


----------



## Klassic

Woodduck said:


> You may disagree with Scruton's views (which I doubt that you understand as well as you think you do), but you're not making much of a case for any other. "Stupidity personified," "idiot of the future," "reactionary, elitist prig," "soiling himself in the street," "primitive superstitions"... Gosh, wouldn't one well-chosen word of disparagement do the trick? I'm sure Scruton _won't_ be reading it, but he'd probably just have a hearty snort if he did.


Now Woodduck I must say I'm disappointed. You speak of "understanding" Mr. Scruton as though there is something complicated here to understand: "It is not music that we hear in the world of Stockhausen but philosophy-second-rate philosophy to be sure, but philosophy all the same."

Is this what you call "doing the trick," mere assertions based on reactionary preference? It would seem I understand Mr. Scruton better than you.

But wait, there is more: ""And the same is true of other art forms that are cut loose from their cultural and religious foundations." What would happen if we challenged Mr. Scrotum to explain and justify these foundations? Are they supposed to be the _standard_ simply because they fall under the word tradition? Further, this idea of "being cut loose" as though it were a negative action is entirely assumed by Mr. Scrotum. It seems you take his position, so do tell, how do you justify the claim that Stockhausen is not music but philosophy?

"...There is a philosophy behind this stuff," I'm sorry, isn't there philosophy behind all art? But wait, I thought Scruton said Stockhausen was philosophy not music, so which is it, is there philosophy behind his music or is the work of Stockhausen purely philosophy? Surely Scruton can't have it both ways?

_"...and if ordinary people protest that it doesn't look right, that it doesn't fit in, or that it is offensive to all natural standards of visual harmony, they will be answered with fragments of that philosophy, in which abstract concepts extinguish the demands of visual taste."_

And if ordinary people protest that it looks right, that it fits, that it is palatable to their natural standards of visual harmony, what then? Men like Scruton are easily explained, they seek to deify their own opinions and preferences [imposing them on everyone else] by using words like "natural standards" and "virtue." This is nothing more than antiquated, authoritarian tyranny disguised as some kind of intellectualism. Like swiping the dust off my pants, there is not even a challenge here.


----------



## hpowders

Weston said:


> I get people with black and white composer avatars confused, especially hpowders and KenOC, though their posting styles are nothing at all alike. I am visually oriented to the point of debilitation.


I will accept this as the supreme compliment it was intended to be.

As usual you reduce this complicated issue to simple black and white.


----------



## hpowders

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Am I one of them? Just curious. :O


Where have you been? Seeing a show at Ford's Theater?


----------



## hpowders

Johnhanks said:


> Is there no activity that resists digitisation?


Good one!


----------



## isorhythm

Scruton's critique may apply, to some extent, to some parts of modern art and music, but I'd say he's off base with Stockhausen.

Stockhausen's "philosophy," as far as I've ever been able to make it out, is a kind of goofy, New Agey mysticism. He's all about sound effects, sensory overload, the "moment" at the expense of large structure. It's pretty clear he wrote the music he did because he liked the sounds it makes. I like them too, sometimes. They don't really invite philosophizing, though - almost the opposite.


----------



## Klassic

isorhythm said:


> Scruton's critique may apply, to some extent, to some parts of modern art and music, but I'd say he's off base with Stockhausen.
> 
> Stockhausen's "philosophy," as far as I've ever been able to make it out, is a kind of goofy, New Agey mysticism. He's all about sound effects, sensory overload, the "moment" at the expense of large structure. It's pretty clear he wrote the music he did because he liked the sounds it makes. I like them too, sometimes. They don't really invite philosophizing, though - almost the opposite.


Remember Scruton made a clear distinction, Stockhausen IS philosophy not music.


----------



## mstar

Weston said:


> composer-looking-serious-for-a-publicity-photo kind of thing


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

hpowders said:


> Where have you been? Seeing a show at Ford's Theater?


Nah, just busy burning heretics in Paris. How are you?


----------



## hpowders

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Nah, just busy burning heretics in Paris. How are you?


Everything's good, thanks. Missed your witty posts.


----------



## Pugg

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Nah, just busy burning heretics in Paris. How are you?


Paris France or from the Midwest?


----------



## Balthazar

Pugg said:


> Paris France or from the Midwest?


We don't burn heretics here. We just send them up to Flint and make them drink the water.


----------



## hpowders

Balthazar said:


> We don't burn heretics here. We just send them up to Flint and make them drink the water.


Heh! Heh! Funny post!

They could also simply drop them in the middle of Detroit.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

The only danger in the _middle_ of Detroit is being infected with yuppie-ism.


----------



## mstar

Harold in Columbia said:


> The only danger in the _middle_ of Detroit is being infected with yuppie-ism.


Sign on the border of a Detroit park:








Just for reference.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

The _middle_ of Detroit, just for reference:

https://www.google.com/search?q=det...k87LAhWIWx4KHaCrDP4Q_AUICCgC&biw=1024&bih=649

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Detroit


----------



## hpowders

I've just been going over some old threads and had come across so many posters who seem to have dropped out. I wonder why each of them did? Sick of classical music? Too many modern threads? Not managing to be acceptable to other members? Sickness? Death?

Just wondering. So many stories in the Naked City. Wish I knew.


----------



## mstar

hpowders said:


> I've just been going over some old threads and had come across so many posters who seem to have dropped out. I wonder why each of them did? Sick of classical music? Too many modern threads? Not managing to be acceptable by other members? Sickness? Death?
> 
> Just wondering. So many stories in the Naked City. Wish I knew.


I have a vague notion at least some of them left before they got as bitter as I.


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Just wondering. So many stories in the Naked City. Wish I knew.


Not enough John Cage threads, that's my guess.


----------



## Weston

They may have realized how much time they were spending here. I would never consider it time wasted, but there are other things I probably should be doing. I've had to cut back on the Current Listening thread at least.


----------



## hpowders

Weston said:


> They may have realized how much time they were spending here. I would never consider it time wasted, but there are other things I probably should be doing. I've had to cut back on the Current Listening thread at least.


I surely know what you mean. My family hasn't seen me for years. Probably for the best.


----------



## mstar

KenOC said:


> Not enough John Cage threads, that's my guess.


*Groan* First it was Mahler or Brahms - I forget which came first. Then it was Cage and Schoenberg, and now it's atonality in general. What's next?


----------



## Blancrocher

mstar said:


> *Groan* First it was Mahler or Brahms - I forget which came first. Then it was Cage and Schoenberg, and now it's atonality in general. What's next?


There have been some skirmishes here and there, but to my knowledge there hasn't yet been a serious, forum-paralyzing argument about musique concrète.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Okay so the last barrier to my enjoyment of Wagner, and vocal music in general really, was that I couldn't raise the orchestra's volume without the singer's becoming so sharp and loud that it literally hurt. My tentative solution to this problem is a protective layer of three beanies between my ears and my headphones. It seems to be working for Wagner, but thus far no amount of beanies has proven effective against Milstein's Bach.


----------



## Weston

At the moment of this writing there are three Schoenberg threads near the top on the front page of Classical Music Discussion!

I think that's pretty cool, but I also suspect it alienates a lot of folks.

[Edit: Actually four or more threads if you count threads indirectly about Schoenberg, like the Expressionists thread.]

Maybe I should think of a new Mozart or Haydn thread for a bit of balance.


----------



## mmsbls

Weston said:


> At the moment of this writing there are three Schoenberg threads near the top on the front page of Classical Music Discussion!
> 
> I think that's pretty cool, but I also suspect it alienates a lot of folks.


I think all of us look at threads and find many that do not interest us. You may be correct that some people find an excess of Schoenberg or atonal or modern music threads to be alienating, but I would hope that they simply move past them as they presumably do for the majority of other threads.


----------



## hpowders

I don't mind the Schoenberg or Wagner threads, as long as posters simply stick to the music and the topic.


----------



## Sloe

Weston said:


> At the moment of this writing there are three Schoenberg threads near the top on the front page of Classical Music Discussion!
> 
> I think that's pretty cool, but I also suspect it alienates a lot of folks.
> 
> [Edit: Actually four or more threads if you count threads indirectly about Schoenberg, like the Expressionists thread.]
> 
> Maybe I should think of a new Mozart or Haydn thread for a bit of balance.


There are more active Schönberg threads than usual. In a few days it will probably calm down and there will be something else to discuss.


----------



## Weston

Yes, I think it's just one of those coincidental things, like the times I'm riding a bike on an empty road when suddenly two cars and I pass the same place at the same time all together. It only seems significant due to our overactive knack for pattern recognition.


----------



## hpowders

When I was a 15 year old kid, I bought the entire Bach works for organ performed by Walter Kraft on VOX.
I hated it-found it so boring.

Now at a much later date, I'm re-collecting a complete Bach organ set again and can't get enough of this profound, monumental and sometimes purely delightful music.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Wut....

There was another Dvorak Cello Concerto??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_Concerto_in_A_major_%28Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k%29

Dvorak didn't orchestrate it or publish it, so that's why it was not even counted among his works.


----------



## majlis




----------



## Weston

You would think in the 21st century we could record an orchestra without the ambient rumble of wherever they are recording. I know some instruments may work better with air conditioning (or do they?), but was there a background rumble in Beethoven's day? Or Mahler's even? I seldom hear this in non-classical recordings.


----------



## mstar

Weston said:


> You would think in the 21st century we could record an orchestra without the ambient rumble of wherever they are recording. I know some instruments may work better with air conditioning (or do they?), but was there a background rumble in Beethoven's day? Or Mahler's even? I seldom hear this in non-classical recordings.


Except Cage's 4'33".

Sometimes the air conditioners get the star role.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Weston said:


> I seldom hear this in non-classical recordings.


Simple explanation: The drums drown it out.


----------



## Weston

^Not entirely true. The non-classical I listen to has quiet parts. I think the difference is the studio as opposed to the concert hall.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Oh. I thought you were talking about live recordings.


----------



## EricABQ

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a fan of the plucked violin.


----------



## Sloe

EricABQ said:


> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a fan of the plucked violin.


It is at least better than when they play violins and other string instruments in a way that it sounds completely horrible. If it was not for the fact that I am lazy I would start a thread on what is the point of that.


----------



## Dim7

I keep mixing Berlioz and Boulez. Leaves me often scratching my head "How the **** is that even chronologically possible?"


----------



## Cosmos

I'm falling in love with Mozart's piano duets and two piano sonata...in general, I love music for piano duet or duo...

But there's something about Schubert's Grand Duo and Mozart's sonatas that stand out to me...I think it's because of the sound of two pianos playing at the same time, in the "classical" or more "traditional" idioms...a lot of times, each musician has to play the same chord or notes at the same time. But, because of typical human imperfection, these notes stand out as both being just a bit off, slightly out of sync...it creates an awkward, unique sound that sticks out from the clear-cut and polished concept of "Classical era" music...

I don't know, just a rambling random thought that doesn't deserve it's own thread :lol:


----------



## Winged Wolf

I have music choice classical masterpieces on right now and instead of changing the channel whenever something from a composer I've never heard of pops up, I decided to leave it on regardless. Right now it's playing Don Gillis (which is spelled Gilles on the channel I don't know why) Symphony 5 1/2. Very fun. Very jazzy. Very surprising.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Today I was sent out to work with the guy I discovered likes classical music. However today I discover that was he really listen is ambiental music, and a little of real classical. The kind of person who listen classical as background music and for relaxation. Not real passionate classical fan I wanted to meet. While it was on the background an orchestra version of the song "Let it Go", he said it was contemporary classical music. I was like: what!!!. I felt disappointed.


----------



## Pugg

EricABQ said:


> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a fan of the plucked violin.


That's what I call a: entrance :lol:


----------



## mstar

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Today I was sent out to work with the guy I discovered likes classical music. However today I discover that was he really listen is ambiental music, and a little of real classical.


Story of my life. 
It gets so pathetic that someone apparently wrote a teen fiction novel called "Fish, Chips and Rachmaninoff". 
You can bet I skimmed that thing as fast as the wind trying to find out how they managed to connect that helluva anomaly together. 
You can bet it was a total scam and had _nothing to do with Rachmaninoff._


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

mstar said:


> Story of my life.
> It gets so pathetic that someone apparently wrote a teen fiction novel called "Fish, Chips and Rachmaninoff".
> You can bet I skimmed that thing as fast as the wind trying to find out how they managed to connect that helluva anomaly together.
> You can bet it was a total scam and had _nothing to do with Rachmaninoff._


Thanks for the heads up. I'm not going to check out this book if I see it.


----------



## Sloe

Dim7 said:


> I keep mixing Berlioz and Boulez. Leaves me often scratching my head "How the **** is that even chronologically possible?"


I keep mixing Busoni and Boito.


----------



## Stirling

nathanb said:


> I disagree based on relatively limited experience.


I have 70 pieces of music, so not so limited.


----------



## Adam Weber

Winged Wolf said:


> I have music choice classical masterpieces on right now and instead of changing the channel whenever something from a composer I've never heard of pops up, I decided to leave it on regardless. Right now it's playing Don Gillis (which is spelled Gilles on the channel I don't know why) Symphony 5 1/2. Very fun. Very jazzy. Very surprising.


That's a great channel (better than it has to be, at any rate), except whoever's in charge loves Raff more than is humanly possible.

I swear, I've seen Stravinsky pop up twice in four years, but Raff comes on once a week, _if not more_. It boggles the mind.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL78TsyiiZjhGNl-civwjVsk_7tn6XG3wh

I'm happy I found this playlist of the leitmotifs in Wagner's Ring. They all come with a neat little paragraph explaining what they mean, where they cross over with other themes, and etc. It's probably obvious stuff to anyone familiar with this music but my novice brain is exploding (again!) with admiration for the beauty and intricacy of this music.


----------



## mstar

Stirling said:


> I have 70 pieces of music, so not so limited.


Is this the general average on TC? For some reason I find that hard to believe. I have 321 according to my iTunes account (yes, I listen to most of them).


----------



## Morimur

I dislike Karajan intensely . . . WOOOOOSH!


----------



## jenspen

My new washing machine just signalled that its first load was finished with a few tinkly bars of "Die Forelle". It must have known I was a Schubertian.


----------



## mstar

Morimur said:


> I dislike Karajan intensely . . . WOOOOOSH!


How terrible! But I'm not one to talk, because I dislike Bach and Mozart . . . WOOOOOSH!!


----------



## Morimur

jenspen said:


> My new washing machine just signalled that its first load was finished with a few tinkly bars of "Die Forelle". It must have known I was a Schubertian.


It might be possessed.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Dim7 said:


> I keep mixing Berlioz and Boulez. Leaves me often scratching my head "How the **** is that even chronologically possible?"


Boulioz. Berlez. Berlioloulez.


----------



## Adam Weber

jenspen said:


> My new washing machine just signalled that its first load was finished with a few tinkly bars of "Die Forelle". It must have known I was a Schubertian.


I began humming "Die Forelle" one day, and, when one of my friends began humming along, I asked them if they knew much Schubert. They said no, they heard it from a washing machine! You can imagine my disappointment and bewilderment. :lol:


----------



## Boldertism

I used to think people who liked old recordings were pretentious and full of it, that changed when I found this at the thrift store.


----------



## mstar

I have to play piano for a 10 minute class procession next week, and _I am clueless as to what to play..._
Any suggestions? I don't have a problem learning something new, but I just have no idea...
(Google wasn't helpful at all.)


----------



## KenOC

On today's date in 1800, Beethoven's Symphony No. 1 had its first performance in Vienna, at a benefit concert for the 29-year-old composer.


----------



## Richard8655

Watching Simon Rattle's insane emotional conducting and gesticulations over the streaming Digital Concert Hall is getting on my nerves.


----------



## hpowders

I wonder how many different thread titles on tonal vs. atonal have essentially asked the same thing? Twenty times? Thirty times? More?


----------



## Sloe

hpowders said:


> I wonder how many different thread titles on tonal vs. atonal have essentially asked the same thing? Twenty times? Thirty times? More?


I wonder why that is considered the most important thing to define music by so many when it have been showed so many times by several users that there are lots of other factors.


----------



## hpowders

Sloe said:


> I wonder why that is considered the most important thing to define music by so many when it have been showed so many times by several users that there are lots of other factors.


And you just know that within a few days, a "brand new" thread will pop up asking the same thing, luring in the same folks with the same "us" vs. "them", ad nauseam. After 23 posts, a mod will intercede with "keep the discussion to the music, not each others' posting styles".


----------



## Pat Fairlea

jenspen said:


> My new washing machine just signalled that its first load was finished with a few tinkly bars of "Die Forelle". It must have known I was a Schubertian.


Yes, mine does that. Irritating, but it does a good wash.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

jenspen said:


> My new washing machine just signalled that its first load was finished with a few tinkly bars of "Die Forelle". It must have known I was a Schubertian.





mstar said:


> I have to play piano for a 10 minute class procession next week, and _I am clueless as to what to play..._
> Any suggestions? I don't have a problem learning something new, but I just have no idea...
> (Google wasn't helpful at all.)


The March from Love of Three Oranges. Seriously, it's fun to play.


----------



## mstar

Pat Fairlea said:


> The March from Love of Three Oranges. Seriously, it's fun to play.


Problem: a roomfull of high schoolers + a hint of dissonance = ehhh let's not think about it.


----------



## Becca

The Intermezzo and Alla Marcia from Sibelius' _Karelia Suite _Op11. I know someone who wanted to have it for a wedding processional & recessional, but then plans were changed


----------



## hpowders

Wouldn't the Talk Classical Confessional Thread be more effective if it was divided into subforums: Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Secular?

I'm thinking of the comfort level of the members as always.


----------



## Morimur

hpowders said:


> Wouldn't the Talk Classical Confessional Thread be more effective if it was divided into subforums: Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Secular?
> 
> I'm thinking of the comfort level of the members as always.


Yeah, segregation is always a good idea.


----------



## Pugg

Let's not forget ; the gay/ lesbian and T.G besides the religion that is


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Can it be argued that Mendelssohn was more dedicated to J. S. Bach than he was to his wife?


----------



## DavidA

Richard8655 said:


> Watching Simon Rattle's insane emotional conducting and gesticulations over the streaming Digital Concert Hall is getting on my nerves.


You ought to have seen Giulini in his pomp! :lol:


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Work in progress, aye!


----------



## hpowders

I see there is an "upteenth" new version of the Beethoven Symphonies coming out, this time with Simon Rattle.

Do we really need this?

Is there anything new to say about these overplayed works that has not already been said?

How about a new version of the Schuman Symphonies? Or the Schmidt Symphonies? Or the Mennin Symphonies? Or the Hummel Piano Concertos?


----------



## Weston

^Much as I am a Beethoven fan I agree with this. Not until some astounding new recording technology allowing us to experience conducting them ourselves or some such will I be interested.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Just came across this Hindemith piece 



. Very interesting. Also, the Brahms influence is very noticeable. I think I'll explore more Hindemith.


----------



## Pugg

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Can it be argued that Mendelssohn was more dedicated to J. S. Bach than he was to his wife?


Let's make a poll


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

One of my favorite Bach inventions to play is the 8th. I've been playing it almost daily for the last few months. I am trying to approach the clarity of this interpretation of it 



 ... yeah.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

mstar said:


> Problem: a roomfull of high schoolers + a hint of dissonance = ehhh let's not think about it.


Ah go on, challenge their harmonic comfort zones. I'm sure it's still legal.


----------



## Weston

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> One of my favorite Bach inventions to play is the 8th. I've been playing it almost daily for the last few months. I am trying to approach the clarity of this interpretation of it
> 
> 
> 
> ... yeah.


The 8th was always my favorite too. I'm surprised at the leisurely pace Gould takes here. (Faster than I could play it of course -- if I could play it. I never really tried, though I played the Bb invention with some degree of smoothness back when I puttered more with the piano.)


----------



## hpowders

Curious. I was listening to a performance of Mozart's magnificent late little gem, Ave verum corpus conducted by Leonard Bernstein and I was struck by how syrupy, sluggish and unstylishly romantic the performance sounded. No recognizable pulse at all. Typical of "late" Bernstein.

YET!!! At the very end of the piece when the orchestra comes in alone there is a trill and he takes it correctly, beginning it on the UPPER NOTE as if that was supposed to redeem all that came before.

What a mixed up mish-mash!


----------



## hpowders

Weston said:


> ^Much as I am a Beethoven fan I agree with this. Not until some astounding new recording technology allowing us to experience conducting them ourselves or some such will I be interested.


I know I have a great Beethoven 7th inside of me. Perhaps virtual reality goggles?

DAM duh duh dum......DAM duh duh dum....


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Weston said:


> The 8th was always my favorite too. I'm surprised at the leisurely pace Gould takes here. (Faster than I could play it of course -- if I could play it. I never really tried, though I played the Bb invention with some degree of smoothness back when I puttered more with the piano.)


Yes, Gould takes his time and makes absolute magic. Faster isn't always better in the inventions.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1087-that-kanye-westbeethoven-concert-bad-idea-or-really-bad-idea/

I'll just leave this here.  :lol:


----------



## Morimur

DiesIraeCX said:


> http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1087-that-kanye-westbeethoven-concert-bad-idea-or-really-bad-idea/
> 
> I'll just leave this here.  :lol:


So Kanye is the new . . . Stravinsky?


----------



## Mahlerian

DiesIraeCX said:


> http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1087-that-kanye-westbeethoven-concert-bad-idea-or-really-bad-idea/
> 
> I'll just leave this here.  :lol:


No comment on the idea.

But this sentence is hilarious:

"I firmly believe there is no "high/low" binary, for the simple reason that binaries reduce the need for critical thought, and I enjoy critical thinking."


----------



## Harold in Columbia

DiesIraeCX said:


> http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1087-that-kanye-westbeethoven-concert-bad-idea-or-really-bad-idea/





> For one, they chose to arrange snippets from Yeezus, West's most relentlessly amelodic album made up mostly of digital blasts, blurts, and gasps.


Poor Pitchfork reviewer. He thinks this is an argument _against_ combining it with classical music.

(Side note: The _Egmont_ overture and string quartet 14 are supposed to be among "Beethoven's most readily recognizable works"???)



> Stravinsky... had a relentless need to stay modern...


Ha ha.



> When Stravinsky wrote "The Rite of Spring," he was so consumed by its lustful, primordial power that he mailed nude photos of himself to friends. After hearing Schoenberg's eerie, lapidary "Pierrot Lunaire," scored for a tiny ensemble, Stravinsky stripped everything down to a force of 12 and began embracing objectivist ideas about function and simplicity.


...does anybody want to tell him?

----

Anyway, this could be good. The preview sounds promising. Much better than Mason Bates.


----------



## maestro267

Sometimes, when I'm listening to Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor")...you have those huge piano cadenzas at the beginning, then the orchestra plays the main theme, alone. And it carries on. And on. And it's so symphonic-sounding that I find myself forgetting it's a piano concerto until the piano's return takes me by surprise.

This happens from time to time with other works where the soloist doesn't appear for a while at the beginning of a concerto. Works like Brahms' D minor and Elgar's B minor (both approx. 4 mins until soloist first plays) and Busoni's lone Piano Concerto, which, as far as I'm aware, takes the cake in this regard. The pianist has to sit there for a full SIX minutes until (s)he gets a chance to show off.


----------



## Becca

maestro267 said:


> Busoni's lone Piano Concerto, which, as far as I'm aware, takes the cake in this regard. The pianist has to sit there for a full SIX minutes until (s)he gets a chance to show off.


That must be nerve-wracking for the pianist who knows what is to come!!


----------



## DavidA

Becca said:


> That must be nerve-wracking for the pianist who knows what is to come!!


And frankly for the rest of us who have to endure the tedium!


----------



## DavidA

Note that Kauffmann is going to sing BOTH vocal parts in Mahler's Song of the Earth.

http://slippedisc.com/2016/04/jonas-kaufmann-will-sing-both-vocal-parts-in-das-lied-von-der-erde/

Wouldn't think it is a good idea artistically as it loses the contrast Mahler intended between the voices. And would think it would be ruinous for the voice too!


----------



## ArtMusic

Kauffmann is a very fine tenor and will do good in that piece.


----------



## Janspe

Ughh, I've been waiting for this day for months now: the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra published their concert programme for the season 2016-17!

I'm going to hear so many pieces that I love: Mahler's 1st and 3rd symphonies, Bartók's 3rd piano concerto and his concerto for orchestra, Ligeti's and Berg's violin concertos, Haydn's _The Seasons_, Prokofiev's second piano concerto, _a lot_ of Stravinsky, Beethoven's third symphony... I can't wait!

And to add just a little extra to the awesome repertoire... I'm finally going to hear Isabelle Faust live, as she's going to interpret the Berg concerto, sweet!

Now waiting for the Helsinki Philharmonic to reveal their plans for the next season... I'll be a poor man after buying all these tickets, but who cares!


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I found out Hitler enjoyed the music of Borodin, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, and Rachmaninoff, and probably other Russians. He had a whole collection of all that stuff, besides German composers. Hitler has become pretty famous for his hypocrisy these days I've seen...



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/07/secondworldwar.germany


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I found out Hitler enjoyed the music of Borodin, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, and Rachmaninoff, and probably other Russians. He had a whole collection of all that stuff, besides German composers. Hitler has become pretty famous for his hypocrisy these days I've seen...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/07/secondworldwar.germany


The same person for whom Slavs were considered as sub-humans ... highly hypocritical, to put in nicely.


----------



## mstar

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> The same person for whom Slavs were considered as sub-humans ... highly hypocritical, to put in nicely.


Not to mention that Hitler had brown hair.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

mstar said:


> Not to mention that Hitler had brown hair.


And possible Jewish ancestry.


----------



## DeepR

Brucker 8 - Adagio
Is there anything better?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

DeepR said:


> Brucker 8 - Adagio
> Is there anything better?


There's nothing better than the feeling you're having, but there are certainly people feeling just like you from other things.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Thesis:

1. Terry Riley's genius is for copying whatever La Monte Young was doing a few years previously, and making it more accessible.

2. Steve Reich's genius is for copying whatever Terry Riley was doing a few years previously, and making it more systematic and giving it a beat.

3. Steve's fall came when Terry followed La Monte into just intonation, and Steve didn't follow.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Maybe it means something that the passages in Beethoven and Wagner that have made the deepest impact on the world's collective subconscious - the various statements of the "Ode To Joy" theme in the finale of the 9th; the receding of the Rhine and the burning of Valhalla at the end of _The Twilight of the Gods_ - are also among the most technically naïve passages they ever wrote.


----------



## hpowders

Never buy used men's underwear at a weekend garage sale, if it is still warm.....no matter how reasonable the price.


----------



## KenOC

It was suggested on another forum that Telemann was the greatest musical innovator of all time. He wrote elevator music long before the elevator was invented.


----------



## Richard8655

KenOC said:


> It was suggested on another forum that Telemann was the greatest musical innovator of all time. He wrote elevator music long before the elevator was invented.


Really? I like Telemann quite a bit and consider him one of the best baroque composers. His Tafelmusik is among many of his excellent works.


----------



## Sloe

Richard8655 said:


> Really? I like Telemann quite a bit and consider him one of the best baroque composers. His Tafelmusik is among many of his excellent works.


I think Telemann perfected the baroque struttyness.


----------



## Woodduck

Harold in Columbia said:


> Maybe it means something that the passages in Beethoven and Wagner that have made the deepest impact on the world's collective subconscious - the various statements of the "Ode To Joy" theme in the finale of the 9th; the receding of the Rhine and the burning of Valhalla at the end of _The Twilight of the Gods_ - are also among the most technically naïve passages they ever wrote.


It means that the world's collective subconscious aspires to human brotherhood, hopes good will triumph over evil, and likes a damn good tune.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

I think it means the world's collective subconscious aspires to be consumed by fire and thus be cleansed of the influence of their racial enemies, whoever those happen to be.


----------



## Guest

Richard8655 said:


> Really? I like Telemann quite a bit and consider him one of the best baroque composers. His Tafelmusik is among many of his excellent works.


Why so surprised that you like elevator music?


----------



## Richard8655

nathanb said:


> Why so surprised that you like elevator music?


Riding too many elevators.  Actually I find that a strange criticism along with "struttyness", whatever that means. He actually was more popular than Bach as his contemporary. To ears of the period, his music was appealing and fashionable and in my opinion still holds up well today.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Richard8655 said:


> To ears of the period, his music was appealing and fashionable...


Well, for a German. (Given the choice, the ears of the period would of course have preferred Bononcini.)


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

TC community, is this drawing in bad taste?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Depends on whether we interpret that answering yes will lead you to 'bad' thoughts.


----------



## Guest

I didn't realise the STI vibe was getting popular over here too.

Hitler didn't have Jewish ancestry, but if only his dad had kept the name Schicklgruber, there'd have been no snappy alliteration with Heil.


----------



## Dr Johnson

hpowders said:


> Never buy used men's underwear at a weekend garage sale, if it is still warm.....no matter how reasonable the price.


How I wish I'd read this sage piece of advice before going to a car boot sale on Sunday.


----------



## hpowders

Abraham Lincoln said:


> TC community, is this drawing in bad taste?


Not from where I come from.....the Florida swamps.


----------



## hpowders

Abraham Lincoln said:


> And possible Jewish ancestry.


Hitler used to go out late at night around this time in 1942 to buy Passover Matzoh at Waldbaum's.


----------



## mstar

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Depends on whether we interpret that answering yes will lead you to* 'bad' *thoughts.


The Subjectivity Detector just went off and is having a field day!!
Define "bad". What is "Bad"? Why do some people like "Bad" music? Baddists v. aBaddists. Why do some people like "aBad" music? What makes you a traditionalist v. a Baddist? Is there such thing as aBad?


----------



## hpowders

Abraham Lincoln said:


> TC community, is this drawing in bad taste?


The gals I used to date would have one of their boots pushing down on my head!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

mstar said:


> The Subjectivity Detector just went off and is having a field day!!
> Define "bad". What is "Bad"? Why do some people like "Bad" music? Baddists v. aBaddists. Why do some people like "aBad" music? What makes you a traditionalist v. a Baddist? Is there such thing as aBad?


There's Boku No Chopin.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Richannes Wrahms said:


> There's Boku No Chopin.


"Robert Schumann - Delusional Otaku"
"MELITIS"
"Wagner the shota"

Speaking of Melitis, did I mention that the people in the picture are supposed to be Mendelssohn (left) and JS Bach (right)?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/les-vendredis.htm

Not so much a _new _discovery for me (I discovered this a few years ago), but I want _you _(yes you!) to read it. Then you will understand the phenomenon that was Russian Composer camaraderie.

Read read read read read!


----------



## Guest

Huilunsoittaja said:


> http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/les-vendredis.htm
> 
> Not so much a _new _discovery for me (I discovered this a few years ago), but I want _you _(yes you!) to read it. Then you will understand the phenomenon that was Russian Composer camaraderie.
> 
> Read read read read read!


I clicked your link!

I took one (ok, maybe two) looks, said "TL;DR", and closed it, but I clicked it dammit! Where's my like?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

nathanb said:


> I clicked your link!
> 
> I took one (ok, maybe two) looks, said "TL;DR", and closed it, but I clicked it dammit! Where's my like?


Nyawww. Well then you didn't do as I asked, I didn't say "Click Click Click!"


----------



## hpowders

Random thought: Listening to Obama butting into British affairs. Why can't he simply mind his own business?

The Brits don't tell us what to do.


----------



## Pugg

hpowders said:


> Random thought: Listening to Obama butting into British affairs. Why can't he simply mind his own business?
> 
> The Brits don't tell us what to do.


That's because the States are meddling in anything, look at Iraq.


----------



## Richard8655

hpowders said:


> Random thought: Listening to Obama butting into British affairs. Why can't he simply mind his own business?
> 
> The Brits don't tell us what to do.


I don't think he's telling them what to do, only recommending. Leaving EU will have a significant worldwide economic impact.


----------



## Guest

Wich necessary changes has to be taken place to put an end to self-enriching people .Why are there people who think they have a right of so much while others have so little?


----------



## DavidA

How to become a classical musician

http://slippedisc.com/2016/04/tip-8-avoid-acquiring-a-pretentious-european-accent/


----------



## Pugg

Traverso said:


> Wich necessary changes has to be taken place to put an end to self-enriching people .Why are there people who think they have a right of so much while others have so little?


Wise words, put them also in in Wise says and meanings :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Richard8655 said:


> I don't think he's telling them what to do, only recommending. Leaving EU will have a significant worldwide economic impact.


True, but Obama looked "pushy". The US already has the reputation of telling other countries what do do, right down to getting rid of heads of state. So the world is a bit "hypersensitive" to this kind of thing.

One thing I must add, however. The rest of the world can't expect the US to be the world's "policeman" and not have America throw its weight around.


----------



## Cosmos

Reger wrote a "Sinfonietta" that lasts 50 minutes and frankly, I shouldn't be surprised


----------



## Chris

You find some odd things in charity shops. For those who don't follow UK football, Sven-Goran Erikkson was formerly manager of the England team. He was fairly successful. His musical tastes are pretty good, though I don't know some of his Scandanavian choices.

I'll report back if I find Wayne Rooney's guide to Mahler.


----------



## Sloe

Chris said:


> You find some odd things in charity shops. For those who don't follow UK football, Sven-Goran Erikkson was formerly manager of the England team. He was fairly successful. His musical tastes are pretty good, though I don't know some of his Scandanavian choices.
> 
> I'll report back if I find Wayne Rooney's guide to Mahler.
> 
> View attachment 83977
> View attachment 83978


He was manager for IFK Göteborg when they won the UEFA-cup.
He could have picked something by Kurt Atterberg who came from Göteborg and also something by Wilhelm Stenhammar and Gösta Nystroem who both lived closed to Göteborg and were active there.


----------



## mstar

Rautavaara.

I've discovered Rautavaara.

Thank you, controversial (a)tonal/modernist threads. Thank you.


----------



## Guest

mstar said:


> Rautavaara.
> 
> I've discovered Rautavaara.
> 
> Thank you, controversial (a)tonal/modernist threads. Thank you.


No one has convincingly challenged my position as resident Rautavaara fanboy. Come at me.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I've never been so enthralled by a piece of music than I have been by _Der Ring des Nibelungen_, and I'm still in the first act of _Siegfried_.

PS. It's Solti for _Das Rheingold_, Boulez's 1980 Die Walküre (Gwyneth Jones' Brünnhilde is completely convincing and captivating!). Then Solti again to complete the remaining two operas, _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung_.

It's helpful that I was oblivious to the story going into it, so all the surprises and twists are actually that. I have no idea what's going to happen next, though I have my predictions.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

mstar said:


> Rautavaara.
> 
> I've discovered Rautavaara.
> 
> Thank you, controversial (a)tonal/modernist threads. Thank you.


Rautavaara sounds like the name of some Hindu deity.


----------



## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Rautavaara sounds like the name of some Hindu deity.


He's Finnish.
Not Hindu.


----------



## Pugg

​
*Suppe*: Extremum Judicium (Requiem Oratorio)

Wilfried Zelinka (bass), Margareta Klobucar (soprano), Dshamilja Kaiser (alto), Taylan Reinhard (tenor)
Choir and Extra-Choir of Oper Graz & Grazer Philharmonisches Orchester, Adriano Martinolli.

Suppé is well know for his "light" music, this however is a very different piece. 
Try it if you can.


----------



## Janspe

I just found a video of Martha Argerich playing Beethoven's fantasy for piano, chorus and orchestra with Seiji Ozawa and the Saitou Kinen Orchestra. I never knew she had that piece in her repertoire, so it's exciting to see her perform it. I'm happy she's still going strong and concertizing regularly. She seems to be playing a lot of Beethoven these days...


----------



## Harold in Columbia

I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but I haven't seen it, or consciously noticed it myself until recently: I'm pretty sure the last couple of minutes of _The Twilight of the Gods_ is the one and only time we hear the Valhalla motif played loud in the entirety of _The Ring of the Nibelung_.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

- After 2 years of searching I've found my harpsichordist for Bach. Kenneth Gilbert with the tempos altered to match Gould.

- I must confess that I've soured on Haydn's symphonies.

- The more I listen to Schoenberg the more I fall in love with his rhythms, but I seem to remain completely indifferent to every other aspect of them. It's fun to soak in the raw kinetic energy of what's happening, almost like listening to a piece for solo percussion, but the melodies don't often cohere into an interesting "narrative" for me. Of course I say often because sometimes they do, so I guess there's hope.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I must say I am disappointed with Kleiber's Beethoven 5th and 7th symphonies with the VPO on DG. I know this disk has acquired cult status but to me only the 1st movements of the symphonies stand out. The rest is good but not great and it further isn't helped by the recorded sound, which is not very good, especially in the 5th. Just listen to how feeble the bases and cellos are in the great fugal part of the 3rd movement of the 5th - many other recordings are better than Kleiber's in the 3rd movement. The 4th is also just mediocre. The performance has great drive but the recorded sound blurs so much of the detail, especially in the fff sections of the development.

I still listen to the 1st movements but then I put in another CD for the rest of the symphonies.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

I can't take any recorded version of Beethoven symphony 5, movement 1 seriously, since I heard this:


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Harold in Columbia said:


> I can't take any recorded version of Beethoven symphony 5, movement 1 seriously, since I heard this:


Haha. I thought that was a serious link.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

It is serious. 160 beats per minute are what they are.


----------



## Blancrocher

It just occurred to me that if I started taking the possible listening habits of my heirs into account and not just my own, I could probably justify buying more cds.


----------



## Dedalus

Harold in Columbia said:


> I can't take any recorded version of Beethoven symphony 5, movement 1 seriously, since I heard this:


"I want to go run out into the snow; that was fantastic!" ...What?


----------



## Harold in Columbia

I think he means it was fantastic, and he wanted to go run out in the snow.


----------



## DeepR

I've decided life is too short to care about opinions on music, other than my own feelings from listening to the music.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Reading other people's opinions on music deepens my appreciation of how much righter I am than everybody else.


----------



## Richard8655

Not me. I value other CM listeners' opinions and often learn much from them by sharing thoughts.


----------



## Sloe

Harold in Columbia said:


> I can't take any recorded version of Beethoven symphony 5, movement 1 seriously, since I heard this:


I liked it.
Better than hearing Cobra conducting Beethoven.


----------



## Dedalus

Harold in Columbia said:


> I think he means it was fantastic, and he wanted to go run out in the snow.


I get that... It just seems like an odd reaction to thinking something is fantastic. "That was fantastic! I want to bake a cake!" Anyway, the video was pretty fun. I'm not insulting the guy, I just found it odd and funny.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Dedalus said:


> I get that... It just seems like an odd reaction to thinking something is fantastic. "That was fantastic! I want to bake a cake!"


I could relate to that.


----------



## Tristan

I noticed that almost all my favorite classical melodies (in major) have some form of the motif of the descending first three notes of a major scale (at the end of a bar/passage or before a rest--generally with the first two notes played more quickly than the last in some way as to make it stand out in the melody). So in other words, in C, that would be E-D-C or in F, A-G-F. Not all of them have it, but a lot of them do: the trumpet fanfare from the Aida Grand March, the march theme from Weber's Konzertstuck, the opening theme from Paganini's 3rd violin concerto, the main theme of Balakirev's piano concerto...all among my favorite melodies and all containing those descending three notes at some significant point in the tune. Interesting 

There must just be something inherently pleasing about that sound.


----------



## DeepR

DeepR said:


> I've decided life is too short to care about opinions on music, other than my own feelings from listening to the music.


Ok, it's alright, I just got a little tired from this forum, but here I am.  I do care about what others think, otherwise I wouldn't be here. It's just that discussions about music often seem pointless in the end and I could spend my time better listening to music.


----------



## Guest

DeepR said:


> Ok, it's alright, I just got a little tired from this forum, but here I am.  I do care about what others think, otherwise I wouldn't be here. It's just that discussions about music often seem pointless in the end and I could spend my time better listening to music.


I'm in a sort of halfway house. I don't care about anyone else's opinion except yours. So make sure they're the RIGHT opinions!
No pressure.


----------



## DeepR

Hehe, ok. Scriabin is a great composer. 
That was easy


----------



## Guest

DeepR said:


> Hehe, ok. Scriabin is a great composer.
> That was easy


Well done! Carry on like that and we'll get on just fine. I even listened to Red Shift last night to make you think it's a two way street. :tiphat:


----------



## chesapeake bay

Tristan said:


> I noticed that almost all my favorite classical melodies (in major) have some form of the motif of the descending first three notes of a major scale (at the end of a bar/passage or before a rest--generally with the first two notes played more quickly than the last in some way as to make it stand out in the melody). So in other words, in C, that would be E-D-C or in F, A-G-F. Not all of them have it, but a lot of them do: the trumpet fanfare from the Aida Grand March, the march theme from Weber's Konzertstuck, the opening theme from Paganini's 3rd violin concerto, the main theme of Balakirev's piano concerto...all among my favorite melodies and all containing those descending three notes at some significant point in the tune. Interesting
> 
> There must just be something inherently pleasing about that sound.


You should read the book "this is your brain on music" it explains some things about why we like music. In your example your brain likes a particular sequence and when it hears that sequence in other places it will like it immediately because it like's that sequence not necessarily because its a great piece of music. Which of course is neither here nor there just interesting to note. For myself I like minor keys pieces that my wife calls gloomy


----------



## Weston

DeepR said:


> Ok, it's alright, I just got a little tired from this forum, but here I am.  I do care about what others think, otherwise I wouldn't be here. It's just that discussions about music often seem pointless in the end and I could spend my time better listening to music.


Sometimes a little break improves the experience.

Actually I've noticed a break form music itself makes music sound incredible. I just have trouble abstaining.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I didn't understand how Debussy was putting up a fight against Wagner in that recent thread, but after listening to Pelleas et Melisande I still don't; but I'm a lot closer to understanding than I was before - this is enchanting!


----------



## Guest

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I didn't understand how Debussy was putting up a fight against Wagner in that recent thread, but after listening to Pelleas et Melisande I still don't; but I'm a lot closer to understanding than I was before - this is enchanting!


I don't recall the thread being about operas vs. operas but rather composers vs. composers. Pelleas will only grant you so much understanding here


----------



## Weston

I wasn't sure where else to put this. Rest in peace Isao Tomita. You somehow made the supposedly sterile synthesizer expressive and amazing through artistry, as holds true for any instrument and performer.

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/05/08/isao-tomita-has-died-at-the-age-of-84/


----------



## GodNickSatan

I fell asleep listening to An Alpine Symphony and woke up during the part with all the thunder and wind. It was rather frightening.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

So, Harold in Columbia was perma-banned. I can't say I agreed with him even most of the time, or with his style of discussion, but man, he sure did make threads interesting. I'm gonna miss him. 

:tiphat:


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

DiesIraeCX said:


> So, Harold in Columbia was perma-banned. I can't say I agreed with him even most of the time, or with his style of discussion, but man, he sure did make threads interesting. I'm gonna miss him.
> 
> :tiphat:


He'll probably re-appear with another handle. He seemed to enjoy posting too much to stay away from here


----------



## DiesIraeCX

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> He'll probably re-appear with another handle. He seemed to enjoy posting too much to stay away from here


Haha, I think you may be right, and I think he already has been back, although I won't disclose said username.


----------



## Richard8655

This section probably to be deleted.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Work in progress. Felix Mendelssohn


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I google translated and learned some of the Die Walkure libretto to see if it would bolster my immersion and oh my god the difference is enormous. After about thirty minutes the recita-singing in Wagner would always degenerate into formless yelling to me and then the music, much as I loved it, would lose its tether and sound formless too; I think subtitles are too broad to relate how the music comments on certain specific words and phrases - that subtler interplay, which where I wasn't completely missing it before my perception was murky at best, seems essential to the flow of this music now that I know some of it.... which means I'll have to learn all of it now...

I'm so excited!


----------



## Weston

Well, this seems an exercise in futility. And I'm a little miffed at the mention of Schoenberg. (It's a little old, so my apologies if someone has already shared it a long time ago.

The world's ugliest music.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> Well, this seems an exercise in futility. And I'm a little miffed at the mention of Schoenberg. (It's a little old, so my apologies if someone has already shared it a long time ago.
> 
> The world's ugliest music.


If it had been the late 19th century, it would have been Wagner. People find something ugly if they can't follow it.


----------



## Strange Magic

Mahlerian said:


> People find something ugly if they can't follow it.


Not necessarily. Sometimes this is true.


----------



## Mahlerian

Strange Magic said:


> Not necessarily. Sometimes this is true.


Okay. The reason why Schoenberg's music is considered ugly is very often because of its unfamiliarity and the inability to recall its themes and follow their development. Because of this it is perceived as an undistinguished jumble of sounds without sense, and this is (perhaps not entirely wrongly) heard as "ugly."

To me, the music is quite familiar, I have absorbed its language to the point where I can follow a given piece without any more effort than one expends to listen to Mozart (which is more than most people realize!) and it is often extremely beautiful.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> Well, this seems an exercise in futility. And I'm a little miffed at the mention of Schoenberg. (It's a little old, so my apologies if someone has already shared it a long time ago.
> 
> The world's ugliest music.


Going back to the video, which I had stumbled across before, but didn't remember the details of, his mention of Schoenberg is completely, mind-numbingly wrongheaded. If Schoenberg had wanted to write pattern-free music, he wouldn't have written music that is based on simple motifs and their development. The tone rows themselves are set up specifically to *include* redundancies, not to eliminate them. Add to that another misunderstanding of "emancipation of the dissonance," and you have another employment of Schoenberg as intellectual heartless bogeyman.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Weston said:


> Well, this seems an exercise in futility. And I'm a little miffed at the mention of Schoenberg. (It's a little old, so my apologies if someone has already shared it a long time ago.
> 
> The world's ugliest music.


Welp, if there's a TED talk attacking you, it means you've done SOMETHING right.


----------



## Weston

^ Thank you, but usually I enjoy TED talks, techno science geek that I am. This one caught me off guard.


----------



## worov

I listened to this CD this morning :










Excellent CD. Most of the CD are premiere recordings. Very percussive piano writing. A bit Prokofiev-like. I especially enjoy the Vittorio Giannini piano sonata (1963). The Creston sonata is amazing too. The final movement is a virtuosic moto perpetuo.

I wasn't familiar with Nicolas Flagello. There are two waltzes and a piano sonata (1962) on the CD. He seems to very a very mature composer with a solid writing. Very dissonant and percussive. i will investigate his works to listen more.

Definitely a CD I will listen again.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I recently discovered this manga known as Classi9 and dear God do I love it.


----------



## Pugg

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I recently discovered this manga known as Classi9 and dear God do I love it.


The music or the cover?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Pugg said:


> The music or the cover?


The manga, what else? 

And also Bach. Can't forget Bach.


----------



## EarthBoundRules

I used to go on trail walks in the winter with Bruckner playing from my iPod. Now whenever I hear Bruckner I'm reminded of snow. Odd.


----------



## Weston

^Try to not to read yourself to sleep as I did most of my life. I don't get much reading done these days other than on this screen.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

EarthBoundRules said:


> I used to go on trail walks in the winter with Bruckner playing from my iPod. Now whenever I hear Bruckner I'm reminded of snow. Odd.


That's not odd at all. You unknowingly trained your brain to associate Bruckner with snow after all the walks you took in the winter with Bruckner BGM.


----------



## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I recently discovered this manga known as Classi9 and dear God do I love it.


Looks like Hetalia... A Hetalia for classical music. Who knew?!


----------



## JosefinaHW

We should have a funniest post thread... if we do, someone please send me a link.


----------



## Dim7

Are there any obscure (i.e. they are not Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven) classical era composers who wrote a lot of stuff in minor keys?


----------



## KenOC

Even Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven wrote far fewer works in minor keys than major keys. I was just toting them up in my head...


----------



## dieter

Kraus,Beck,Cherubini???


----------



## dgee

Dim7 said:


> Are there any obscure (i.e. they are not Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven) classical era composers who wrote a lot of stuff in minor keys?


Vanhal wrote some cool Sturm und Drang symphonies in minor keys


----------



## clavichorder

I should listen to the compilation videos and playlists people make on youtube more often, and while I'm not actively using the computer. I had a baroque compilation video on and many pieces featured that I didn't know, though generally there was plenty of music by the big names of baroque orchestral works: Bach, Handel, Telemann, Vivaldi, Corelli, etc, and some odd ones. I would often listen without knowing who wrote the piece initially and it would not be hard due to my experience, to tell it was Telemann, Handel, Bach, Vivaldi, Corelli, or some others. But I discovered some similarities between the music of these composers that I may not have heard if I didn't have that slight uncertainty: Vivaldi can be surprisingly Bach like and vice versa in the various concerti, though there will be many give aways and some altogether unambiguous pieces. Handel can strike you at unawares with very powerful music if you aren't initially pegging him from knowledge of the piece playing, and I have had an unconsious prejudice that has been obscuring Handel for me for some time; bothersome because I remember absolutely loving Handel when younger and feeling a strong basis in him being weighed against Bach as another true baroque master just on my listening experience.(without knowing the extent of Bach's keyboard music then) 

In general it can really open you up to no know what you are listening to, or if you do, to try to forget who and what and just hear and notice the patterns, seeking the deepest feels the music can inspire in you.

Also maybe this gets at one of the reasons I have loved baroque music so much. The most satisfying discs I have that I would listen to over and over(when I listened to CD's...sad), were baroque compilations, which contained sometimes only individual movements, or in the case of the best ones, multi movement works in a little several disc set covering the gamut of major high and slightly earlier baroque composer. I felt like I could see one era from so many different personal angles; great minds saying some different things consistently and inventively. Whereas listening to one romantic or even classical era symphony was an immersive event and variety is thrown out the window in any given listening session.


----------



## Weston

clavichorder said:


> . . . I had a baroque compilation video on and many pieces featured that I didn't know, though generally there was plenty of music by the big names of baroque orchestral works: Bach, Handel, Telemann, Vivaldi, Corelli, etc, and some odd ones. I would often listen without knowing who wrote the piece initially and it would not be hard due to my experience, to tell it was Telemann, Handel, Bach, Vivaldi, Corelli, or some others.


I love doing this sort of thing, but I have only tried it with my own collection playing at random. I haven't tried it with YT. I used to have the skill to tell the baroque composers apart, but you have to stay on top of it. I can still make a pretty good guess, but I have been too immersed in other eras now to get it right as often. It was nice reading of your experiences with this.


----------



## Weston

I enjoy relaxing in the mornings with coffee exploring / shopping for composers and works unknown to me. This morning I came across Charles Wilson of whom Wikipedia says, "As a composer, Wilson is known for employing an eclectic range of musical idioms from serialism to indeterminacy while maintaining a strong emotional lyricism and sense of tonality."

There were none of the usual links on the words "serialism," etc., and I couldn't remember exactly what is indeterminacy is. I looked that up and then began to explore works alleged to be indeterminate. But I haven't had much luck. 

The concept doesn't do you any good unless there are many different performances widely and easily available so we can tell more what is going on, how they differ and how the music leaves possibilities open. And even if they were widely available, how in the world could one decide which is a better performance before purchase?


----------



## clavichorder

Weston said:


> I love doing this sort of thing, but I have only tried it with my own collection playing at random. I haven't tired it with YT. I used to have the skill to tell the baroque composers apart, but you have to stay on top of it. I can still make a pretty good guess, but I have been too immersed in other eras now to get it right as often. It was nice reading of your experiences with this.


It really just takes a short fast from post 1800 classical music, to get that skill working at high caliber again. I get into a mode where I am heartily enjoying music that I was previously unable to enjoy as richly, while listening to more romantic and modern composers.

And yeah, youtube is a great source for playlists and compilation videos. There will be plenty of things you've never heard before, or simply don't have in your collection, no matter how big it is.


----------



## clavichorder

Dim7 said:


> Are there any obscure (i.e. they are not Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven) classical era composers who wrote a lot of stuff in minor keys?


Joseph Martin Krauss has some bold examples. Clementi has some nice minor key sonatas. From the older generation, look to CPE Bach, and his 'stylistic successor' Ernst Wilhelm Wolf wrote a number of nice minor key keyboard sonatas. I'd have to think harder for more obscure composers. Boccherini had an abundance of minor key pieces too I believe, and he retains a fairly light touch in them or else emulates a classical era Vivaldi flair.

You could easily search G minor, D minor, C minor, etc, symphony, or whatever style you are looking for in google. Maybe have a composer in mind and see if anything pops up in youtube. You'll surely find things.


----------



## Boldertism

Just the other day I realized that Wagner was super good.


----------



## Avey

Avey said:


> That Charles Ives routinely attended NYP concerts, meaning at some point, it is highly likely that he attended a performance with Gustav Mahler conducting. Such a prospect makes me genuinely happy.


BUT NOT LIKE:

Benjamin Britten, writing on Mahler








Or being influenced (to me: sounds like aural conflict, _i.e._) by him 




Or just the two being in the same general room.

This is embarassing, I suppose -- especially outside this forum -- but this just totally makes me shiver and get all hyped on the art.


----------



## DeepR

Piano and horn is a bittersweet combination.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

I suspect that everything in Don Giovanni is in some way an inferior copy of something in The Marriage of Figaro.

e.g.

- The situation in "Crudel! Perché fin'ora" and "La ci darem la mano" is approximately the same - aristocrat tries to seduce not-entirely-unwilling lower class woman - but the latter has nothing like the psychological and musical subtlety of the former.

- I just noticed the other day that the vehement patter of "Finch'han dal vino" has a precedent in the middle section of "Se vuol ballare." And again, the earlier aria is a much richer piece of music.

- Even the trick of making the old device of the diminished seventh sound so memorably terrifying in the statue's chords has a precedent, in the transcendent effect of the equally banal cadence when the count asks for the countess' pardon and she gives it (heaven instead of hell). And unlike the statue's chords, whose visceral effect (and it is partly a visceral effect) has been exceeded by Wagner, Strauss, Stravinsky, Slayer, and even Beethoven, the effect of the forgiveness scene remains in all respects unsurpassed, and presumably unsurpassable (if not necessarily unequalled or unequal-able).


----------



## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> We should have a funniest post thread... if we do, someone please send me a link.


Context is everything.


----------



## JosefinaHW

dogen said:


> Context is everything.


:dogen: I absolutely agree with your post; a "funniest" post thread could turn into a terribly wounding thread. I sent a PM asking a person permission to use their post to start such a thread and I didn't hear back and then it clicked in my dense brain. So, I've just started taping the posts into my own journal.

...edit.... "dense brain" hmmm, a Freudian slip of a compliment to myself???.... "dense skull"


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Citrus pith becomes waxy if you press on it.


----------



## GodNickSatan

Ravel and Debussy had a great talent for making you feel like you're floating on a cloud.


----------



## Weston

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Citrus pith becomes waxy if you press on it.


Good to know. (more characters . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . )


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

it's pointless to say "excuse me" after you sneeze. You didn't do anything that needs excusing.


----------



## JosefinaHW

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> it's pointless to say "excuse me" after you sneeze. You didn't do anything that needs excusing.


I'm not a germ-a-phobe and I'm of the belief that if your immune system is basically healthy just because you are exposed to bacteria or viruses does not mean the exposure is going to cause a noticeable response by your immune system. That being said, when we sneeze we could (not sure if it is always the case) be spreading bacteria and viruses into others' environment, so there is value to saying "excuse me".....


----------



## Stavrogin

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> it's pointless to say "excuse me" after you sneeze. You didn't do anything that needs excusing.


This surprises me, because it's not common at all to apologize after a sneeze in Italy.
We only do it if the sneeze is (unvoluntarily*) too strong, to the point of its noise being potentially annoying for the people around you - depending on the context of course.

* I assume that if one does that voluntarily, they will not bother apologizing.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

JosefinaHW said:


> I'm not a germ-a-phobe and I'm of the belief that if your immune system is basically healthy just because you are exposed to bacteria or viruses does not mean the exposure is going to cause a noticeable response by your immune system. That being said, when we sneeze we could (not sure if it is always the case) be spreading bacteria and viruses into others' environment, so there is value to saying "excuse me".....





Stavrogin said:


> This surprises me, because it's not common at all to apologize after a sneeze in Italy.
> We only do it if the sneeze is (unvoluntarily*) too strong, to the point of its noise being potentially annoying for the people around you - depending on the context of course.
> 
> * I assume that if one does that voluntarily, they will not bother apologizing.


Well, if your sneeze sprays droplets on someone or the sound of it drowns the noise of busy street traffic then you can excuse yourself.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Scriabin... INVERTED!!!!!

Orchestrated Scriabin

Pianofied Scriabin

His music is surprisingly fluid that you can go from both mediums of sound quite effortlessly...


----------



## DeepR

^^^ I like good orchestrations of solo piano, but piano reductions of orchestral music, meh... that didn't work for me at all. 
Liszt's Beethoven symphonies are pretty awesome though, can't deny that.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

If we posit that Froberger is the freak mutation who turned German music from nowheresville into the fertile ground that Handel and Bach grew out of AT THE SAME TIME - and then the rest of the 18th-20th century German (+Austrian) canon - then Froberger is arguably the most important composer ever.


----------



## Weston

Hildadam Bingor said:


> If we posit that Froberger is the freak mutation who turned German music from nowheresville into the fertile ground that Handel and Bach grew out of AT THE SAME TIME - and then the rest of the 18th-20th century German (+Austrian) canon - then Froberger is arguably the most important composer ever.


I'd scarcely call Heinrich Schütz nowheresville.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

My current record for continuous listening to a Wagner opera is 33 minutes. And that took all my will power.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

For some reason I have this weird problem with Mendelssohn that I can't ever imagine that he got married to a girl and made her pregnant. I even thought that he was gay when I first read about him. I don't know why this happens or what this means. Somebody help me.


----------



## Marinera

If it helps you, I've never wondered about Mendelsohn's marital status or sexual orientation at all. 
:tiphat:

But now that you've brought that up, wheels started spinning.. was he married?


----------



## Morimur

Abraham Lincoln said:


> For some reason I have this weird problem with Mendelssohn that I can't ever imagine that he got married to a girl and made her pregnant. I even thought that he was gay when I first read about him. I don't know why this happens or what this means. Somebody help me.


Errr . . . go for a walk.


----------



## Avey

That there is so much music I have yet to hear, and when discovering such music, which quickly impresses upon my soul like other music I know full-well and have long adored, I get slightly depressed. More than delighted to find new music, but just depressed that my human form cannot absorb all of the music (art) in the world in a brief instant so I am at once familiar and appreciative of it all. Now, here and now. Because I cannot wait.


----------



## senza sordino

Avey said:


> That there is so much music I have yet to hear, and when discovering such music, which quickly impresses upon my soul like other music I know full-well and have long adored, I get slightly depressed. More than delighted to find new music, but just depressed that my human form cannot absorb all of the music (art) in the world in a brief instant so I am at once familiar and appreciative of it all. Now, here and now. Because I cannot wait.


Perhaps this website will get you started to explore the world of music. It's a kind of map of whole world of music. I think it's pretty cool. 
http://everynoise.com/engenremap.html
"This is an ongoing attempt at an algorithmically-generated, readability-adjusted scatter-plot of the musical genre-space, based on data tracked and analyzed for 1467 genres by Spotify. The calibration is fuzzy, but in general down is more organic, up is more mechanical and electric; left is denser and more atmospheric, right is spikier and bouncier.

Click anything to hear an example of what it sounds like.

Click the » on a genre to see a map of its artists."


----------



## DeepR

^^ Dance music and metal really have the silliest of subgenres; when music can be easily categorized into these tiny sub-sub categories, it tells me that such music is not going to be very original...


----------



## mstar

senza sordino said:


> Perhaps this website will get you started to explore the world of music. It's a kind of map of whole world of music. I think it's pretty cool.
> http://everynoise.com/engenremap.html
> "This is an ongoing attempt at an algorithmically-generated, readability-adjusted scatter-plot of the musical genre-space, based on data tracked and analyzed for 1467 genres by Spotify. The calibration is fuzzy, but in general down is more organic, up is more mechanical and electric; left is denser and more atmospheric, right is spikier and bouncier.
> 
> Click anything to hear an example of what it sounds like.
> 
> Click the » on a genre to see a map of its artists."


Love it! Thanks! (Links me to Spotify)


----------



## Xenakiboy

DeepR said:


> ^^ Dance music and metal really have the silliest of subgenres; when music can be easily categorized into these tiny sub-sub categories, it tells me that such music is not going to be very original...


"I think technical vegetarian progressive post-Punk deathcore is the best, everything else sucks" :lol:

Yes, it's ridiculously silly, but the non-classical world is known for its contrived marketing...


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

DeepR said:


> ^^ Dance music and metal really have the silliest of subgenres; when music can be easily categorized into these tiny sub-sub categories, it tells me that such music is not going to be very original...


To an extent I agree, but -

1. - is, say, Morton Feldman really any less specialized?

2. - Stendhal was splitting hairs 200 years ago about what is and isn't "opera buffa" (Paisiello and Cimarosa, yes, Mozart and Rossini, no). A niche is a niche until a genius touches it.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

senza sordino said:


> Perhaps this website will get you started to explore the world of music. It's a kind of map of whole world of music. I think it's pretty cool.
> http://everynoise.com/engenremap.html


Fascinating. They've missed out the Welsh form of "Canu Penillion" or "Cerdd Dant" (Verse-singing/String-song), where the vocal line is sung to a different melody than that of the accompaniment, usually played on the harp. Here's a light-hearted, but skilful, illustration by Ryan Davies:






The "illustrated lecture" starts 54 second in.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

When Stravinsky inevitably becomes the most popular 20th century composer - as Beethoven eventually became the most popular 19th century composer - maybe one side effect will be that his serial period becomes the most popular atonal music, by anybody (maybe analogous to Beethoven's late quartets, which are still kind of infamous, but nevertheless fairly popular - e.g. they get programmed by public radio).


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I attempted once again to do a month long musical fast and I lasted two days. The effect was still significant, not taste-altering, but enough that I almost believe all the composers I somewhat like will simultaneously become my favorites if I ever succeed in doing this.


----------



## dieter

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I attempted once again to do a month long musical fast and I lasted two days. The effect was still significant, not taste-altering, but enough that I almost believe all the composers I somewhat like will simultaneously become my favorites if I ever succeed in doing this.


eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we diet.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

TFW you discover that a piece of movie music that's been stuck in your head since childhood is a rip-off of a semi-obscure piece by Stravinsky.


----------



## Pugg

Morimur said:


> Errr . . . go for a walk.


A very long one I may add


----------



## DavidA

Conductor makes a big hit - and sends violin flying!

http://slippedisc.com/2016/06/horror-video-conductor-sends-soloists-violin-flying/


----------



## Marinera

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I attempted once again to do a month long musical fast and I lasted two days. The effect was still significant, not taste-altering, but enough that I almost believe all the composers I somewhat like will simultaneously become my favorites if I ever succeed in doing this.


Congratulations! You might have found a universal remedy for ending classical music wars. This is very worth mentioning in threads like 'Why I don't like Bethoven/Brahms/Mozart etc.' 
Now, collect your Nobel prize and go spread peace in TC :clap::angel:

Note: after a month without music ,i believe withdrawal symptoms will be so severe you'll love every single composer you hated before; or you can suffer another month to change that..or another... you know I'm no longer so sure about the Nobel.. one has to be an evil genius mastermind to come up with such panacea..


----------



## Boldertism

Trump's Ex campaign manager is channeling Furtwangler.


----------



## motoboy

Bruckner is not good gym music. 
(For me, anyway)


----------



## zhopin

motoboy said:


> Bruckner is not good gym music.
> (For me, anyway)


My gym music isn't usually classical - if it is, I end up focusing more on the music than my workout.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Classical music is best for listening.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've become a lot more picky with opera recordings now that I've started paying attention to librettos. I love the sound of Rene Jacob's Marriage of Figaro, but in the opening aria the singers don't even sound happy or excited, just out of breath and monotone. My favorite act 1 of Die Walkure is Solti's because Sieglinde is sung with so much tenderness, but the guy playing Siegmund almost ruins that tenderness by belting out his lines with far too much energy. And then wimpy voiced Siegfrieds and Loges with no charisma, etc.


----------



## senza sordino

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Classical music is best for listening.


Yogi Berra said "you can observe a lot by watching"

One can also say "you can hear a lot by listening"


----------



## Weston

Listening to Benjamin Britten's Four Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes at work yesterday I felt that Interlude No. 2 in particular sounds like some minimalism I've heard. Nothing seems to resolve for a long time. Did Britten foreshadow minimalism by about twenty years? I suppose more could be said of Satie, but not concerning long unresolved sonority.


----------



## micro

I love Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht but feel meh about most of his works. I just can't believe he composed it when he was only 24 years old. It just feels like a mature Brahms piece (and much darker). Unbelievable.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

BOW DOWN. You MUST.


----------



## DeepR

I listened to some piano music by Stanchinsky. Great music really. Tragic story about his disease and early death.


----------



## Woodduck

micro said:


> I love Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht but feel meh about most of his works. I just can't believe he composed it when he was only 24 years old. It just feels like a mature Brahms piece (and much darker). Unbelievable.


Your Brahms must have been studying composition with Wagner.


----------



## Mahlerian

micro said:


> I love Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht but feel meh about most of his works. I just can't believe he composed it when he was only 24 years old. It just feels like a mature Brahms piece (and much darker). Unbelievable.


Schoenberg was always a romantic at heart, and unsurprisingly Verklarte Nacht was inspired by his own passionate feelings. The poet Dehmel was the inspiration for a few other works from the around the same time as well, lieder settings. He never disowned any of his works, even when he ended up going in a different direction, and he spoke warmly of the Hollywood Quartet's rendition of the sextet.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Trying to decide how I want to watch Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre.
I want to watch a performance of it but preferably on DVD, not on YouTube (though I saw a preview of it on YouTube)

Also, what are your thoughts on Esa-Pekka Salonen's recording of Frank Zappa's 200 Motels Suites, I love Salonen but should I get it??


----------



## DeepR

DeepR said:


> I listened to some piano music by Stanchinsky. Great music really. Tragic story about his disease and early death.


This piece is enchanting, Prelude in the lydian mode (in 21/16 time)





According to wikipedia he destroyed a lot of his music in rage and the music that survived was saved by others.


----------



## Xenakiboy

I think we've got it all the wrong way around we should be surfing and boogying to Varese or Xenakis, or Beethoven and dressing up to see serious performances of surf rock and Doo *** classics in concert halls! :lol:


----------



## Xenakiboy

Another thought, is that I realised that Franz Liszt is my romantic era composer, apart from Wagner and Mahler! 
I've been on a high with Liszt the past fortnight


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Woodduck said:


> Your Brahms must have been studying composition with Wagner.


So basically Richard Strauss.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Xenakiboy said:


> I think we've got it all the wrong way around we should be surfing and boogying to Varese or Xenakis, or Beethoven and dressing up to see serious performances of surf rock and Doo *** classics in concert halls! :lol:


Just wait a hundred years.



Xenakiboy said:


> I've been on a high with Liszt the past fortnight


Which pieces?


----------



## Xenakiboy

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Just wait a hundred years.
> 
> Which pieces?


In particular the Transcendental Etudes (which I brought), they've completely closed-fisted my face when I first heard them, I've been checking out quite a few of his piano works on YouTube.


----------



## Xenakiboy

don't you dare clap or even cough between california surf tracks


----------



## Xenakiboy

Just listening to Rhapsody in blue by Gershwin and can't stop seeing the influence on Carl Stallings Warner bros scores!


----------



## Xenakiboy

I'm listening to Bartok's "44 Duos" and loving it, but I can't help the funny thought that Bartok was the origin of Grindcore! :lol:


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Is 'I don't have that ingredient/equipment at home' the equivalent of 'I can't sing/play it' in avant-garde cuisine?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Why did Stravinsky wear 2 pairs of glasses?


----------



## Weston

^I bet because bifocals are too blasted hard to deal with. I've considered ditching the bifocals and going back to glasses for the myopic, then donning a pair of reading glasses over those for close work myself.


----------



## Woodduck

Weston said:


> ^I bet because bifocals are too blasted hard to deal with. I've considered ditching the bifocals and going back to glasses for the myopic, then donning a pair of reading glasses over those for close work myself.


That's what I do. One pair for reading, another for driving, and none for when perfect vision doesn't matter. No prescription lenses needed. Total cost for both pairs obtained second-hand from thrift stores: $2.00.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've noticed that the music I love isn't necessarily the music that most effectively elicits a release of adrenaline. Or at least that the former sometimes needs some tinkering to achieve that effect. I think that symphony orchestras on recording can sound a bit "airy" and light compared to some of the contemporary music I listen to, and that my brain gets hooked on a certain busy, rich sound texture (electric guitars, techno, etc) that recorded classical music can't always achieve. 

I notice a similar effect when I go from the baroque era to the classical; my enjoyment is lessened not because I like the music less but because my brain is addicted to the busier sound of, say, a fugue by Bach, and so Mozart's piano concertos will do nothing for me. 

In another instance, my absolute favorite music right now is Wagner's Ring Cycle, and yet my appreciation of it feels unusually restrained in some way - the admiration of aesthetic is in full force but the visceral aspects like increased heart-rate, goosebumps, and etc, only appear during the purely orchestral sections. Often times it's in those sections that I find the heavier bass, dense textures, and consistent rhythms of rock music, hip hop, and other such genres that are less aesthetically beautiful to me but more exciting as a cheap blood rush. 

As an experiment I increased the bass and added an echo effect to some of the music in Wagner's Ring to create a busier sound texture and in many cases this unlocked my visceral appreciation of that music. Taking breaks from music seems to reset this mechanism and allow me to perceive as thick sound textures that sound thin to me right now. 

I've always thought that little ticks of the brain like these are a big part of the aversion many people have for classical music, or just certain types of music in general.


----------



## Weston

While searching for ever newer music to explore I noticed a lot of new music is performed on record by college and university ensembles. With a lot of newer music and its unfamiliar idioms it's hard to tell whether a performance is done well or just barely scrapes by. I am concerned because I once received a disc of the orchestra with the university where I am employed playing Beethoven's 5th Symphony. It was scarcely recognizable! Or listenable. 

How then are we to trust all the newer music, often composed for and performed by University ensembles?


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> How then are we to trust all the newer music, often composed for and performed by University ensembles?


It just takes familiarity with the idiom to be able to tell a good performance:






from a less good one:


----------



## Janspe

I had yet another conversation about music today during which my interest in modern/contemporary music - and its authenticity - was questioned; phrases like _the emperor's new clothes_ were used frequently. The composer in question was Kaija Saariaho, and apparently it was downright impossible to believe that upon closer investigation, I've discovered enjoyable elements in her music. Funny how easy it is for some people to declare that my curiosity to learn more is actually just pretending to like something that _surely no one can like._

Personally, I much prefer being told that music that I don't find interesting now might reveal its secrets to me if I just gave it time. I take it very personally when my interests and my taste is criticized, questioned and even ridiculed. I'm so tired of being "ashamed" of constantly defending the value of the music that I find interesting. Luckily there are places - like this forum - where one can find people with similar interests, values, and above all the capability and will to talk about music politely - well, most of the time at least.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Ok, I'm really enjoying his work at the moment, so I had to say. Webern is F***ing AMAZING!!!!


----------



## tdc

Mahlerian said:


> It just takes familiarity with the idiom to be able to tell a good performance:
> from a less good one:


True, but is Schoenberg "newer music"?


----------



## Mahlerian

tdc said:


> True, but is Schoenberg "newer music"?


It does remain terra incognita for many, but your point is taken. It is difficult to find multiple performances for very new works, which I suppose is part of the problem.


----------



## Weston

Janspe said:


> I had yet another conversation about music today during which my interest in modern/contemporary music - and its authenticity - was questioned; phrases like _the emperor's new clothes_ were used frequently. The composer in question was Kaija Saariaho, and apparently it was downright impossible to believe that upon closer investigation, I've discovered enjoyable elements in her music. Funny how easy it is for some people to declare that my curiosity to learn more is actually just pretending to like something that _surely no one can like._
> 
> Personally, I much prefer being told that music that I don't find interesting now might reveal its secrets to me if I just gave it time. I take it very personally when my interests and my taste is criticized, questioned and even ridiculed. I'm so tired of being "ashamed" of constantly defending the value of the music that I find interesting. Luckily there are places - like this forum - where one can find people with similar interests, values, and above all the capability and will to talk about music politely - well, most of the time at least.


 I find Kaija Saariaho's work fairly approachable and beautiful, at least what little I've heard. I don't get this. Have they actually heard it or are they just not liking it based on how they expect it to sound?

[Edit: Okay, I'm listening to Circle Map which I have on a compilation of contemporary works, and I can hear it's pretty far out there. I guess I've gone pretty far down the rabbit hole too, so it sounds okay to me. I can see why others might find it noise. I still hear beauty in it.]


----------



## Boldertism

I'm a little too annoyed by the 4th movement of Beeth's 5th Symphony on Bernstein's New York set. It sounds like a mic placement problem that maybe ruins my almost favorite Beethoven 5.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Why must every YouTube upload of Beethoven's 9th symphony's 2nd movement contain at least one comment quoting something or other from A Clockwork Orange?

Similarly, why must every description of the Eroica mention how Beethoven had dedicated the symphony to Napoleon and later scratched it off when he found out he in fact did not like Napoleon?


----------



## regenmusic

How about a thread for Youtube videos of orchestras with the most beautiful women playing?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Gustavo Dudamel seems like a very pretty woman to me.


----------



## Pugg

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Gustavo Dudamel seems like a very pretty woman to me.


Always funny you. :lol:


----------



## Janspe

Isabelle Faust is going to record the complete Mozart violin concertos and the CD will be released later this year... I can't wait!

Now, some of you might say: why get so excited, those pieces have been recorded a million times already - very true, but Ms. Faust is an incredibly thoughtful musician who has already given shattering and honest performances of concertos by Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Bartók, Berg and many more; so it's thrilling to hear what she has to say with the five Mozart concertos. She's probably my favourite violinist. Her recording of the two Bartók concertos is desert island material for me.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Some day, somebody is going to do a remake of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles where their names are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Maybe one day Wagner will shrink as small compared to Brahms as Gluck has compared to Haydn.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I'm glad Mozart died young because had he lived to be old, I would have even more work to do for my school project. And I am tired enough already.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

TFW you realize the Romantics were right all along about Cosi fan tutte. In spite of attempts by Joseph Kerman and I don't know who all else to put a good face on it, "Fra gli amplessi" represents the successful brutality of the seducer and the humiliation of the seduced. It's a sadistic opera. (So is Don Giovanni, of course - "Ah taci! ingiusto core" is basically the same number, plus Leporello and minus consummation - but people don't notice because the Commendatore scene makes them forget about what happened earlier.)


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I discovered last night that the opera plot for _Love for 3 Oranges _is actually kinda racist. The last scenes where the Princess is swapped with a black slave girl to be the Prince's bride, and he gets super mad, and some things he says... "God forbid I marry a *******!" Hmmmmm the point is he's been tricked, but still to point it out like that... :/


----------



## Xenakiboy

Just listened to the Tristan prelude by Wagner and couldn't help hearing Scriabin and Ives in it. It sounded like there where two orchestras playing at times! Talk about innovative! So much beautiful chromatic harmony :cheers:


----------



## Xenakiboy

I played Jonchaies by Xenakis for a friend (who's not much of a classical fan) on my stereo today and he loved it. :tiphat: I feel like I've a great good here, I should celebrate? :lol:


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> Just listened to the Tristan prelude by Wagner and couldn't help hearing Scriabin and Ives in it. It sounded like there where two orchestras playing at times! Talk about innovative! So much beautiful chromatic harmony :cheers:


They must have "borrow" it from Wagner though.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I just realized that if I get a haircut, I can make my hairstyle look exactly like Mendelssohn's.


----------



## Morimur

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I just realized that if I get a haircut, I can make my hairstyle look exactly like Mendelssohn's.


----------



## Morimur

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I discovered last night that the opera plot for _Love for 3 Oranges _is actually kinda racist. The last scenes where the Princess is swapped with a black slave girl to be the Prince's bride, and he gets super mad, and some things he says... "God forbid I marry a *******!" Hmmmmm the point is he's been tricked, but still to point it out like that... :/


Only 'kinda' racist? I'd say that's pretty damn racist. But what's new? Racism is alive and well.


----------



## Weston

Recently I listened to some of James Kibbie's complete Bach organ works and found his BWV 633 to sound like it uses vibrato. How does one get vibrato on a pipe organ? Is there a stop for that or is the organ just a little wobbly -- as I'm getting?

Cool effect either way.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

A neighbor was listening classical music in the car. He's a classical fan. I knew it because I saw his Facebook profile. I have notice that when he listens to popular music the music is loud, but when he was listening to classical music the music was low. I understand him!


----------



## Woodduck

Weston said:


> Recently I listened to some of James Kibbie's complete Bach organ works and found his BWV 633 to sound like it uses vibrato. How does one get vibrato on a pipe organ? Is there a stop for that or is the organ just a little wobbly -- as I'm getting?
> 
> Cool effect either way.


Here's your answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremulant


----------



## Weston

^It makes me wonder how these clever people thought to try such things. We have not advanced as far as we like to think.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I was thinking that Leonard Bernstein conducting was like someone who likes to drink coffee with sugar and cream, and that Pierre Boulez conducting was like someone who likes to drink just strong black coffee.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I was thinking that Leonard Bernstein conducting was like someone who likes to drink coffee with sugar and cream, and that Pierre Boulez conducting was like someone who likes to drink just strong black coffee.


I once decided (and still believe) that Boulez COMPOSING was like somebody who likes to drink espresso! (Macho, yet rarified.)


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

The more I read about Mendelssohn the more convinced I am that he may have had Asperger's Syndrome.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Abraham Lincoln said:


> The more I read about Mendelssohn the more convinced I am that he may have had Asperger's Syndrome.


Did he have weak social skills and inability to understand the emotions of others?

I learn something every day! Glazunov actually intended to become a concert pianist when he was younger, before he really got into composing (that 1st symphony debut and all). That explains why he could play all his compositions, which are super hard! It was initial intention to become a composer-pianist the way Scriabin and Rachmaninoff were, but alas... he had issues with nerves, I think, like his own mother. He never gave piano recitals publicly, and only performed in private gatherings.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Imagine a society where the housekeeper is (was still?) expected to provide music to the rest of the family via piano playing. There would be music TV programmes that went like cooking shows, teaching pieces and 'tricks' to the audience. Shops would sell pianos alongside washing machines.


----------



## micro

No composer came up with a more elegant opening for a symphony like Brahms did in his No. 4.


----------



## Tristan

I think I finally got my rock-loving friend to understand that the way he listens to his favorite guitar solos, the way he turns up the volume, his heart pounds, and it makes him feel alive, is the same way I listen to the Rach 3 cadenza ossia. The last time I listened to it (Ashkenazy recording), I turned the volume up, my heart was pounding, and I felt exhilarated. I truly think that cadenza is the pinnacle of musical expression. 

Well that's my random thought for today


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Debussy's music fails to elicit much emotion in me, for the most part. To be sure, it has moments of extreme beauty but for some reason that i can't explain it does not do much for me emotionally. It's like looking at a beautiful woman with whom you cannot connect on a deeper level.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I think that Leonard Bernstein was like someone who likes to always put ketchup on his fried potatoes.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Mauricio Kagel is like a prehistoric version of myself (he's in the 70s etc and I'm currently in 2016) to my understanding. The level of absurdism in a lot of his work is awesome. He is able to keep the audience mesmerised while also laughing and taking something emotionally deeper. It's amazing!!  :tiphat:

Though Xenakis and Bartok are like my model as a composer, Kagel (like Schnittke) is definitely a direction I will be exploring!


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Xenakiboy said:


> Mauricio Kagel is like a prehistoric version of myself (he's in the 70s etc and I'm currently in 2016) to my understanding. The level of absurdism in a lot of his work is awesome. He is able to keep the audience mesmerised while also laughing and taking something emotionally deeper. It's amazing!!  :tiphat:
> 
> Though Xenakis and Bartok are like my model as a composer, Kagel (like Schnittke) is definitely a direction I will be exploring!


Probably Xenakis and Bartók are smiling at you in music heaven.


----------



## Xenakiboy

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Probably Xenakis and Bartók are smiling at you in music heaven.


:lol:
I have my debt to them, as a composer and a classical enthusiast, so I would be honoured if they where! 

They where both atheists to my knowledge, so I guess they're both together in hell listening to the devil play Paganini's violin music?


----------



## Pugg

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I think that Leonard Bernstein was like someone who likes to always put ketchup on his fried potatoes.


Always..... sometimes I think.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Debussy's music fails to elicit much emotion in me, for the most part.


Listen to act 5 of Pelleas and Melisande, following along in the libretto if you don't understand French.






Here's French & English text on alternating pages:

https://archive.org/download/pellasmelisand00debu/pellasmelisand00debu_bw.pdf

https://openlibrary.org/books/OL23418503M/Pelléas_and_Melisande

Then realize the rest of Debussy is emotional in the same way, just w/out words serving as cheat sheet for how it's supposed to make you feel.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Listen to act 5 of Pelleas and Melisande, following along in the libretto if you don't understand French.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's French & English text on alternating pages:
> 
> https://archive.org/download/pellasmelisand00debu/pellasmelisand00debu_bw.pdf
> 
> https://openlibrary.org/books/OL23418503M/Pelléas_and_Melisande
> 
> Then realize the rest of Debussy is emotional in the same way, just w/out words serving as cheat sheet for how it's supposed to make you feel.


Thank you. I will listen to this. Mind you, i much prefer purely instrumental music to opera but I will keep an open mind.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I found this channel!!

https://www.youtube.com/user/EuroArtsChannel

So many full productions of great works! And just last week a new production of Prokofiev's opera _The Gambler _from Mariinsky. I watched it last night and it was fantastic! _Otlichno!!!!!_


----------



## EdwardBast

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Debussy's music fails to elicit much emotion in me, for the most part. To be sure, it has moments of extreme beauty but for some reason that i can't explain it does not do much for me emotionally. *It's like looking at a beautiful woman with whom you cannot connect on a deeper level.*


How about watching a beautiful woman flawlessly performing a graceful and intricate dance? Why would one ruin that for the sake of a fleeting emotional payoff? Perhaps Debussy isn't making an appeal to our emotions, but to our imaginations, intellect and aesthetic sense?


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

EdwardBast said:


> How about watching a beautiful woman flawlessly performing a graceful and intricate dance? Why would one ruin that for the sake of a fleeting emotional payoff? Perhaps Debussy isn't making an appeal to our emotions, but to our imaginations, intellect and aesthetic sense?


Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I did not say that lacking an emotional aspect ruins the listening experience. But for me, having that emotional connection with the music makes me love it rather than just like it.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I did not say that lacking an emotional aspect ruins the listening experience. But for me, having that emotional connection with the music makes me love it rather than just like it.


Indeed, emotional music isn't necessarily emotionally _compelling _music. I think to say that a piece has emotional expression is a very objective statement. Every piece of music has some sort of emotion tied to it. What matters is if that emotion matters to _you_, if it reaches you on a personal level.


----------



## DeepR

The influence of culture on musical preferences is overrated. It only determines the music you are exposed to, but that becomes irrelevant when you can seek out pretty much any music you want, independent from any influence by others, like we can today. Bring back Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, give them a huge collection of music and a PC with internet and within a few years they'll appreciate a vaste range of classical music that was made after they died, including music from the modern era. With their musical minds they'll be able to absorb and appreciate it faster than most of us.


----------



## EdwardBast

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Indeed, emotional music isn't necessarily emotionally _compelling _music. I think to say that a piece has emotional expression is a very objective statement. Every piece of music has some sort of emotion tied to it. What matters is if that emotion matters to _you_, if it reaches you on a personal level.


That is one thing that matters. Another might be the extent to which emotion and expression influence structure. A coherent emotional or expressive journey seems to be pretty central to how many movements by, for example, Schubert, Beethoven, or Tchaikovsky unfold. I don't get this sense from works of Debussy and I think it comes from a deliberate aesthetic choice on the composer's part.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Holy cow, a wonderful discovery!!!!

Shostakovich fans MUST WATCH!!! Even if you don't speak Russian, it's clear what personages you will see...


----------



## KenOC

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Holy cow, a wonderful discovery!!!!
> 
> Shostakovich fans MUST WATCH!!! Even if you don't speak Russian, it's clear what personages you will see...


I sure wish this had subtitles!


----------



## Scopitone

Ingélou said:


> I always thought that Brahms didn't marry & had lots of 'lighter' girlfriends because he met Clara Schumann at a young & impressionable age, and nobody could really replace her. It's the romantic in me, I suppose.


Isn't there a Katherine Hepburn movie about this story? I need to chase that one down.


----------



## Scopitone

I can't hear Swan Lake without thinking about those early Universal monster movies.


----------



## Xenakiboy

I don't know whether I should change my Avatar to Mauricio Kagel or keep it as Korndorf sitting at his composing desk?


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> I don't know whether I should change my Avatar to Mauricio Kagel or keep it as Korndorf sitting at his composing desk?


I am sure you come up with something.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Pugg said:


> I am sure you come up with something.


Maybe you can give me the rules of deciding on complex avatar decisions that may or may not be an accurate representation of the poster, posting the posted postings on Talkclassical?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Xenakiboy said:


> Maybe you can give me the rules of deciding on complex avatar decisions that may or may not be an accurate representation of the poster, posting the posted postings on Talkclassical?


If it's been at least a year since you discussed what your avatar was. For me, the last time I posted about what my avatar is, that was years ago, so I am free to change any day. Not that I will. Unless I get updated version of same... _concept_. :lol:


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> Maybe you can give me the rules of deciding on complex avatar decisions that may or may not be an accurate representation of the poster, posting the posted postings on Talkclassical?


No I wont, you're old ( and wise I may add) enough


----------



## Scopitone

An amusing anecdote: Sometime around 2000, friends and I went to see Pavarotti perform. (he was glorious, even in those late years - I am so happy I got the opportunity)

When I showed up at my friend's apartment, everyone was dressed in what we in Texas called "church clothes". I was in jeans and tshirt. I would have dressed that way had we been going to Bass Hall or the Meyerson. But it was at friggin American Airlines Center! 

No time to go home and change. At the concert, of 15k people or more, I was the worst dressed.


----------



## Scopitone

NYTimes said:


> my favorite Knappertsbusch sighting remains one from 1962 in the Prinzregenten Theater in Munich, a wooden structure modeled after Bayreuth but without the sunken pit.
> 
> The opera was Wagner's "Fliegende Hollander," whose overture begins full tilt, plunging into a mid-oceanic maelstrom of furiously sawing strings and thundering brass. As the lights dimmed, the audience settled down, awaiting the stately arrival of the conductor -- who was, after all, 74 years old. (He died in 1965.)
> 
> Suddenly there was a loud bang -- the sound of the door through which Knappertsbusch had emerged slamming shut. The conductor, all six feet, four inches of him, was forging through the startled players, brushing them aside as if he did not even see them. Baton held high, he gave the downbeat when he was still a good 15 feet from the podium, and the musicians hurled themselves onto Wagner's stormy seas in the most thrilling beginning to an opera that I ever hope to hear.


http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/11/a...f-the-past-remains-unmatched-in-parsifal.html


----------



## Xenakiboy

Oh geeze, I've almost reached 1000 posts already!  
I wonder if anyone will notice?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Xenakiboy said:


> Oh geeze, I've almost reached 1000 posts already!
> I wonder if anyone will notice?


Congratulationen!


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

This gymnast using Rite of Spring for her floor routine. Cool!


----------



## Xenakiboy

Schoenberg's Wind Quintet is so lively and creates many images in my mind, I'm still one of those people who will never understand the attitude people have towards Schoenberg (and Stockhausen, Babbitt etc.), he's not at all different to Stravinsky or even Schostakovich when it comes down to it, just his methods and choice of aural aesthetic.


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> Schoenberg's Wind Quintet is so lively and creates many images in my mind, I'm still one of those people who will never understand the attitude people have towards Schoenberg (and Stockhausen, Babbitt etc.), he's not at all different to Stravinsky or even Schostakovich when it comes down to it, just his methods and choice of aural aesthetic.


Bit heavy remark, different people different taste


----------



## Scopitone

OldFashionedGirl said:


> This gymnast using Rite of Spring for her floor routine. Cool!


Terrific! That video sent me off watching some of the other Soviet girls of 1989, too, from the team many consider the strongest in history. Olessia Dudnik FTW


----------



## Xenakiboy

Pugg said:


> Bit heavy remark, different people different taste


Not at all :lol:


----------



## Xenakiboy

I want that Messiaen: Complete Edition SOOOO BADLY!!!!!!


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> I want that Messiaen: Complete Edition SOOOO BADLY!!!!!!


You know the song:


----------



## Weston

Is Amaz*n taking a lot longer to fulfill orders these days? I ordered some CDs on July 7 and the estimated arrival is between August 3 and 15. That's a month or more!? It isn't out of stock items either.

If this goes on we can bring back music stores.


----------



## Scopitone

Weston said:


> Is Amaz*n taking a lot longer to fulfill orders these days? I ordered some CDs on July 7 and the estimated arrival is between August 3 and 15. That's a month or more!? It isn't out of stock items either.
> 
> If this goes on we can bring back music stores.


If you're using free shipping (or the not-2day shipping, to get the $1 digital credit, as I usually do), then my experience has been that yes, they can take up to 5 business days to even ship the item.


----------



## regenmusic

There is a rimsky korsakoffee coffee house in Portland. Can someone do one better?


----------



## Pugg

Weston said:


> Is Amaz*n taking a lot longer to fulfill orders these days? I ordered some CDs on July 7 and the estimated arrival is between August 3 and 15. That's a month or more!? It isn't out of stock items either.
> 
> If this goes on we can bring back music stores.


Perhaps something to do with holidays ?


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

William Byrd's creative peak - late 1580s to early 1590s - was about 50 years before the beginning of the English Civil War. Jean-Philippe Rameau's creative peak - mid-to-late 1730s - was likewise about 50 years before the beginning of the French Revolution.


----------



## Weston

Pugg said:


> Perhaps something to do with holidays ?


No major holidays I'm aware of. Maybe I accidentally checked the wrong shipping option.


----------



## DeepR

I wish Sibelius 7 was only the beginning of much more to come. I don't enjoy his other symphonies as much yet, but I'll keep listening.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

regenmusic said:


> There is a rimsky korsakoffee coffee house in Portland. Can someone do one better?












What about this Mozart café in Vienna? :O


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I want to go out for dinner with Bach and talk about matters of music and philosophy with him.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

After Schubert (or maybe just for all time), we maybe need, in addition to the familiar history of the development of western music, a history specifically of the development of the art of MELODY, with major figures including: Bellini, Verdi, Fauré, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Gershwin, the Beatles.


----------



## DeepR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Leif_Segerstam

300!
This is madness!
Madness? ... THIS.. IS.. ooh nevermind.


----------



## Xenakiboy

DeepR said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Leif_Segerstam
> 
> 300!
> This is madness!
> Madness? ... THIS.. IS.. ooh nevermind.


He really fascinated me when I discovered that too, though I've only heard one symphony of his though...

and even if it was random notes it'd be an achievement, come on:
300 Symphonies!!!!!!!


----------



## starthrower

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I want to go out for dinner with Bach and talk about matters of music and philosophy with him.


"All music to the glory of God, my son. Okay, gotta split and finish my cantata for Sunday service."


----------



## Scopitone

Whenever I hear classical guitar, I always think of Ralph Macchio using his mad classical guitar skills to beat Steve Vai's heavy metal in the BLUES guitar duel in _Crossroads_.


----------



## regenmusic

Abraham Lincoln said:


> What about this Mozart café in Vienna? :O


Mozart's Mocha Arts maybe? Hard to beat the play on words of Rimsky Korsakoffee coffee house! I was hoping someone could do it.


----------



## Woodduck

Xenakiboy said:


> He really fascinated me when I discovered that too, though I've only heard one symphony of his though...
> 
> and even if it was random notes it'd be an achievement, come on:
> 300 Symphonies!!!!!!!


If it was random notes it would be obsessive-compulsive disorder. Maybe it is anyway. Must go and listen now.


----------



## DeepR

He's a good conductor at least, the rest I'm not so sure about.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

This poster makes it look like he was responsible for the Nazi regime.


----------



## DavidA

OldFashionedGirl said:


> This gymnast using Rite of Spring for her floor routine. Cool!


Just how do they do it?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I wonder if Mussorgsky takes baths in vodka.


----------



## Ginger

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I wonder if Mussorgsky takes baths in vodka.


It would explain a lot!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I wonder if Mussorgsky takes baths in vodka.


Why, doesn't everyone?


----------



## Ginger

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Why, doesn't everyone?


No! Germans take beer instead of Vodka. Please mind your political correctness...


----------



## Scopitone

Ginger said:


> No! Germans take beer instead of Vodka. Please mind your political correctness...


"Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you drink beer." - Arnold Schwarzenegger, _Pumping Iron_


----------



## Ginger

Scopitone said:


> "Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you drink beer." - Arnold Schwarzenegger, _Pumping Iron_


Nice quote but Arnie seems to ignore the facts: we start with beer as babies. Skip the milk. That's probably only for people who look after their muscles


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

When you grow up you drink water from the tap.


----------



## clavichorder

Once you are tall enough and make the choice to drink from the kitchen sink facet like it's a drinking fountain, you are an adult?


----------



## clavichorder

Scopitone said:


> Whenever I hear classical guitar, I always think of Ralph Macchio using his mad classical guitar skills to beat Steve Vai's heavy metal in the BLUES guitar duel in _Crossroads_.


That was a fun clip to repeatedly watch when I first discovered it a while back. Haven't seen the movie though.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

This is the first time I've heard Wagner through some good speakers and probably the 3rd or 4th time I've ever heard CM through speakers and I just tested them with the Magic Fire scene and I was like ducking and dodging like I was Siegfried in the fire and I'm rambling because this is sooooo amazingthankyoudadomg.


----------



## Scopitone

clavichorder said:


> That was a fun clip to repeatedly watch when I first discovered it a while back. Haven't seen the movie though.


_Crossroads _with Ralph Macchio is not a very good movie. But it has its moments. And Jami Gertz is wicked hot.


----------



## Scopitone

I remember some years ago trying out the Schubert winter songs performed by someone or other. Lieder just didn't do it for me back then, from either tenor or soprano. 

Funny how our tastes change over time. I love the "genre" now, especially from a soprano voice. 

Would Lieder be considered a kind of pop music in its day? Or was it considered "above" such things as Stephen Foster (and whatever the European equivalents may have been)?


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Scopitone said:


> Would Lieder be considered a kind of pop music in its day?


Yes, but, like, CLASSY pop. Like, Magnetic Fields or something. (Rihanna = Rossini.)


----------



## Scopitone

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Yes, but, like, CLASSY pop. Like, Magnetic Fields or something. (Rihanna = Rossini.)


Haha, there have always been hipsters and art snobs. :lol:


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Hildadam Bingor said:


> (Rihanna = Rossini.)


And yet, at the same time, people seriously thought Rossini was the greatest composer of serious operas since Gluck. They were weird then.

Maybe we're equally weird now. Beyoncé is a critically certified Serious, Innovative Artist. But nobody thinks she's in the same profession as Kaia Saariaho, like people did with Rossini and Beethoven. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Beyoncé can be compared with Rossini. But, like, maybe Pharrell Williams can be.)


----------



## Scopitone

Hildadam Bingor said:


> And yet, at the same time, people seriously thought Rossini was the greatest composer of serious operas since Gluck. They were weird then.
> 
> Maybe we're equally weird now. Beyoncé is a critically certified Serious, Innovative Artist. But nobody thinks she's in the same profession as Kaia Saariaho, like people did with Rossini and Beethoven. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Beyoncé can be compared with Rossini. But, like, maybe Pharrell Williams can be.)


There's really no way to predict what will _last _in film, literature, and music. We can make some educated guesses, but only time will tell.

But it can be a lot of fun to discuss.


----------



## jenspen

Scopitone said:


> I remember some years ago trying out the Schubert winter songs performed by someone or other. Lieder just didn't do it for me back then, from either tenor or soprano.
> 
> Funny how our tastes change over time. I love the "genre" now, especially from a soprano voice.
> 
> Would Lieder be considered a kind of pop music in its day? Or was it considered "above" such things as Stephen Foster (and whatever the European equivalents may have been)?


My guess is that most people would have preferred 'parlour songs' and comic songs. Stephen Foster's songs and the Irish ballads of Percy French are very good surviving examples of the popular song. From the time when the new, inexpensive pianos arrived till about when everybody had a portable transistor radio people regularly sang around the piano and soloists (of all classes of society) were happy to inflict their playing and singing on others in informal and formal gatherings. Every town held an annual eisteddfod and publishing sheet music was big business.

I think the fact that a good deal of the German Lieder and French mélodie repetoire is still loved and admired has little to do with snobbery. It is, as you said, the judgment of history.


----------



## Weston

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I want to go out for dinner with Bach and talk about matters of music and philosophy with him.


He would tell you to get back to work and stop lazing away the day in a tavern I'm afraid.


----------



## Xenakiboy

I want David Lynch or Ridley Scott to direct Erik Satie, John Cage, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Mauricio Kagel portrait films!!


----------



## Pugg

Scopitone said:


> Haha, there have always been hipsters and art snobs. :lol:


Still are :cheers:


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> I want David Lynch or Ridley Scott to direct Erik Satie, John Cage, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Mauricio Kagel portrait films!!


You know the song I once dug up for you.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Pugg said:


> You know the song I once dug up for you.


English?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Rachmaninoff and Scriabin were an odd couple.


----------



## Mahlerian

According to this invaluable resource, the Tennstedt live Eighth I love (on DVD) is in fact not identical to the CD one. They were apparently recorded about a week apart by the same performers.

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/symph8.html


----------



## Merl

Back when I played vinyl, I discovered that if you played Holst's Planets backwards it sounded really ***** (and wrecked your stylus).


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

My latest "new" composer I've discovered is Rameau. I am greatly enjoying his music. Here's a couple of samples on YouTube that I'm loving:


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> My latest "new" composer I've discovered is Rameau. I am greatly enjoying his music. Here's a couple of samples on YouTube that I'm loving:


Good stuff, but the relatively superficial tip of a stupendous iceberg:


----------



## Xenakiboy

Schnittke's Concerto for Piano and Strings is so bloody good, can't stop listening to it. And the parody of the theme from Phillip Glass (Einstein I believe) is funny but in context of the work, quite dark! :tiphat:


----------



## Weston

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> My latest "new" composer I've discovered is Rameau. I am greatly enjoying his music. Here's a couple of samples on YouTube that I'm loving:


I've always gotten a big kick out of the drummer in that Les Sauvages clip -- more so than the chicken dance. He's over the top.


----------



## Chris

I've just read that Sigmund Freud made an important contribution to the understanding of the reproductive cycle of the European freshwater eel.


----------



## Pugg

Chris said:


> I've just read that Sigmund Freud made an important contribution to the understanding of the reproductive cycle of the European freshwater eel.


Very interesting.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Chris said:


> I've just read that Sigmund Freud made an important contribution to the understanding of the reproductive cycle of the European freshwater eel.


Hence his famous remark "Sometimes a cigar is just a smoked eel"?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I just discovered what's gonna be on my Saturday Night Fever at the Disco playlist:


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Well ain't this hot stufffffff??? _Yah _man! Down in Jamaica man!






And I want _this _version when I go down the aisle!!!!





:lol: !!!!!!!!!


----------



## KenOC

On this date in 1829, in Paris, the music to The Lone Ranger was first heard.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Interesting fact: Beethoven's violin concerto was only performed once during the composer's lifetime. 

The premier was not a success and is rumored that the violinist interrupted the concerto between the 1st and 2nd movements to play a composition of his own. Apparently Beethoven procrastinated so much and he finished the score so late that the soloist had to sight-read some of it!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

So that is why it is such crap!


----------



## KenOC

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Interesting fact: Beethoven's violin concerto was only performed once during the composer's lifetime.
> 
> The premier was not a success and is rumored that the violinist interrupted the concerto between the 1st and 2nd movements to play a composition of his own. Apparently Beethoven procrastinated so much and he finished the score so late that the soloist had to sight-read some of it!


Yes indeed. After its premiere, LvB's Violin Concerto lay forgotten for almost 40 years, until it was resuscitated in London by that famous resuscitator Mendelssohn, with the 12-year old Joseph Joachim on the violin.

Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto had a similar history, again being revived by Mendelssohn.


----------



## millionrainbows

I've rediscovered David Diamond thru this disc. I was surprised by the Eighth Symphony, highly chromatic and even making use of the 12-tone row. So much more modern and muscular than some of his string quartets. Then, I was 180º surprised by "This Sacred Ground" on the same disc, based on the Gettysburg Address and featuring a baritone singing the words of Lincoln, with a girl's choir and a boy's choir. I was totally surprised and touched by this piece, especially in these troubled times.


----------



## Merl

I discovered, today, that former 70s pop-rock star, Joe Jackson, used to compose classical music in his time at the Royal Academy of Music. Wow, that was dull! That little snippet of info has even bored me senseless just writing it.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Beethoven's String Quartet no 13 (op 130) isn't that bad, there are moment's I don't like but I often get lost in it, like most music I love. There are traces of the mighty Grosso in this (for obvious reasons). One of the more impressive Beetsy pieces I've heard! :tiphat:


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Stravinsky invented "post-minimalism" (in the specific sense in which Kyle Gann has used the term - http://www.kylegann.com/postminimalism.html): 




Stravinsky invented Morton Feldman: 




Stravinsky invented Holy Minimalism: 



 (Compare the first 2 1/2 minutes with the first movement of Gorecki's 3rd symphony: 



)


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Stravinsky invented "post-minimalism" (in the specific sense in which Kyle Gann has used the term - http://www.kylegann.com/postminimalism.html):


I think perhaps this may be more in the running for that honor... 



 (hope you can view it from outside US)

:tiphat: (I'm just pulling your leg)


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I think perhaps this may be more in the running for that honor...


Wow!

[15 characters]


----------



## Xenakiboy

I feel a level of irony that my neighbours are listening to "Roll Over Beethoven" :lol:


----------



## Pugg

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I think perhaps this may be more in the running for that honor...
> 
> 
> 
> (hope you can view it from outside US)
> 
> :tiphat: (I'm just pulling your leg)


Alas not , so strange in this day and age.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Debussy's Prelude To An Afternoon Of A Faun is ***** incredible, I just watched a piano transcription of it. The atmosphere of that work is always transcendental!


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

KenOC said:


> Yes indeed. After its premiere, LvB's Violin Concerto lay forgotten for almost 40 years, until it was resuscitated in London by that famous resuscitator Mendelssohn, with the 12-year old Joseph Joachim on the violin.
> 
> Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto had a similar history, again being revived by Mendelssohn.


You've given me the mental image of Mendelssohn as a necromancer summoning up an army of dead composer zombies.


----------



## regenmusic

Hugues Cuénod interview at 99!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

"_On the vast canvas of Mahler's most all-embracing symphony, he painted a soul-stirring hymn to nature in all its miraculous facets. A choir of women and children, plus mezzo-soprano Jamie Barton, who thrilled TSO audiences in Verdi's Requiem two seasons ago, give extra lustre to this stunning event!_" - so it says on my local orchestra's upcoming concert playing Mahler's 3rd. I wonder why they bother paying marketers to come up with such descriptions. I doubt it will attract any more people than just listing what's on the program.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I prefer souls unstirred.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Korndorf is still incredible, Concerto Capriccioso is a must listen!!! :guitar:


----------



## Pugg

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I prefer souls unstirred.


Shaken not stirred .


----------



## helenora

oh, gosh, this Arpeggione is in my head for the entire day....can't do anything about it and it's just after 3 times or more listening to it which I couldn't help doing it.....and well, yesterday and the day before yesterday it was a bit of the same , but less, today it's obsessing hahahahaha, it's in my head whatever I do, kind of accompanies me in all my activities....I wonder why people use headphones and everything of that kind? 

so, I couldn't refuse a temptation to turn it on again, now it's not just within of my head but from outside as well , we are duo now :lol:


----------



## Mahlerian

If people _must_ give a subtitle to Mahler's Eighth, how about one that relates to the content of the work and not the outwards spectacle (which is the absolute *least* important part of it)? In parallel with the "Resurrection" moniker, I suggest perhaps calling it the "Ascension Symphony."


----------



## Xenakiboy

I've been listening to Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre also quite a bit since I gave up "Current Listening" and I've come to the conclusion that it is definitely one of my favourite operas. It is both highly skilfully composed and the humour in it is perfect (much like Kagel's vocal works)
:tiphat:


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Richard Taruskin divides post-WWII music into "maximalism" - meaning Boulez, Stockhausen, Carter, Ferneyhough - and minimalism - meaning, well, obviously. Wouldn't it be funny if History eventually decided that the greatest masterpiece in the maximalist tradition was the Beatles' Revolver - or the white album or Sgt. Pepper or whatever - and the greatest masterpiece in the minimalist tradition was La Monte Young's Well-Tuned Piano? i.e. that "maximalism," which is supposed to be learned and inaccessible, was brought to its highest point by massively popular entertainers who couldn't read music, while minimalism, which is supposed to be practicable by amateurs and accessible, was brought to its highest point by a highly esoteric classical composer.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

So this movie is coming out and it's highly rated! 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/florence_foster_jenkins_2016/

Anyone who watches please tell me what you think. I probably won't cuz I'm now going to grad school and won't have access to movie theaters so easily anymore.


----------



## Xenakiboy

I've been listening to Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre and Liszt's Faust Symphony on heavy rotation recently.
Both works are a marvel to behold; Macabre is so delicately composed, showing a precise idea of the interaction between the characters and the instruments. But the humor in it is some of the most plain awesome I've seen since Zappa and Kagel. Some of the hilarious quotes, that would probably be censored too with "**" symbols, is oddly inspiring. The opera is hilarious and has a large element of satire. The amazing thing is that it doesn't come off to me like satire, its a surreal story that is a load of fun. 
This opera has given me a new love for Ligeti!!
The Liszt's Faust Symphony is like a taste-test of the 20th century, in a way. When I hear it, I can't help thinking "that's Schoenberg" or "that's Bartok" or "that's Mahler". It isn't a bad thing, it's like another Grosso Fugue to me; a prelude to the future. Though, like Grosso that future has already been. 
I liked Liszt already, his piano works are some of the most impressive I've seen, but this Symphony has given me something to be perplexed by!


----------



## Weston

^I've been wanting to hear the Faust Symphony but haven't decided between two versions, one by Bernstein, the other by -- I can't remember. I have it bookmarked at home. I haven't found it on streaming services but haven't looked too hard yet.


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Don Giovanni is the culmination of Italian opera.

The Ring of the Nibelung and Otello are the culmination of French opera.

The Rite of Spring is the culmination of German opera.

Moral of the story: Don't bother inventing anything, somebody from some other country is just going to steal it and do it better anyway.


----------



## LarryShone

ahammel said:


> Random discovery: Franz Welser-Möst is a stage name. He added the 'Welser-'.


Wow, and who? And how is Möst pronounced?


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

LarryShone said:


> Wow, and who? And how is Möst pronounced?


English speakers generally either just treat "ö"/"oe" as "o" or approximated it as "er" as in "murderer" - so, uh, either "Most" or "Merst."

There doesn't seem to be any fixed rule here - like, I don't know why "Goethe" is "Gerthe" but Tonio Kröger is "Kroger."

Or maybe it's ONLY Goethe who's approximated as "er"? I can't actually think of another example now. Maybe "Gothe" just sounded clunky.

Or, if you want to know exactly how the Chairmans pronounce it, here: 



 (time stamp 4:14)


----------



## Hildadam Bingor

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Or maybe it's ONLY Goethe who's approximated as "er"? I can't actually think of another example now. Maybe "Gothe" just sounded clunky.


Oops, never mind, Schoenberg - "Schernberg" - is another example. Hmmm, maybe it's got something to do with "ö" vs. "oe"? Did everybody in Englmerica call him "Schonberg" until he stopped spelling it "ö" and started spelling it "oe"?

Maybe Anglophones figure if the Germans are going to make the effort of writing an additional letter, then they should make the effort of pronouncing it closer to right.


----------



## Pugg

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Don Giovanni is the culmination of Italian opera.
> 
> The Ring of the Nibelung and Otello are the culmination of French opera.
> 
> The Rite of Spring is the culmination of German opera.
> 
> Moral of the story: Don't bother inventing anything, somebody from some other country is just going to steal it and do it better anyway.


Don't let today's composer see this.......they would not agree.


----------



## LarryShone

I thought The Ring was German opera! Mind you what I know about opera isn't worth knowing!


----------



## LarryShone

Hildadam Bingor said:


> English speakers generally either just treat "ö"/"oe" as "o" or approximated it as "er" as in "murderer" - so, uh, either "Most" or "Merst."
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any fixed rule here - like, I don't know why "Goethe" is "Gerthe" but Tonio Kröger is "Kroger."
> 
> Or maybe it's ONLY Goethe who's approximated as "er"? I can't actually think of another example now. Maybe "Gothe" just sounded clunky.
> 
> Or, if you want to know exactly how the Chairmans pronounce it, here:
> 
> 
> 
> (time stamp 4:14)


Ermagerd, I dernt knerw


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Don't let today's composer see this.......they would not agree.


Why not, maybe they need a reminder to improve on the past.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

So I've listened to the end of the Eroica about 20 times in a row now. Does that qualify as obsession?

EDIT: for some reason the embedded video does not automatically start at 16m59s, which is the time I intended.


----------



## DeepR

I'm taking a break from Bruckner 8. It will stick with me for life as one of my favorite pieces of music. I've listened to especially movements 3 and 4 so often that I know exactly what's coming next at any given moment. I just wanted to say, Bruckner = GOD. There, I've said it.


----------



## chesapeake bay

DeepR said:


> I'm taking a break from Bruckner 8. It will stick with me for life as one of my favorite pieces of music. I've listened to especially movements 3 and 4 so often that I know exactly what's coming next at any given moment. I just wanted to say, Bruckner = GOD. There, I've said it.


Which rendition held you rapt for so long?


----------



## DeepR

chesapeake bay said:


> Which rendition held you rapt for so long?


The live performance with Wand you can find on youtube. I converted it to mp3 so I can easily listen to it anywhere. Performance is amazing and audio quality is more than good enough.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I discovered a new and fantastic youtube channel featuring all Russian composers.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIARWGtuaxM0qT8DoS1Ic6g

I can tell it's going to get big. This person is uploading some extremely rare works of rare Russian composers, Romantic and 20th century, some of whom I've never heard of. Always happy to hear more!


----------



## chesapeake bay

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I discovered a new and fantastic youtube channel featuring all Russian composers.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIARWGtuaxM0qT8DoS1Ic6g
> 
> I can tell it's going to get big. This person is uploading some extremely rare works of rare Russian composers, Romantic and 20th century, some of whom I've never heard of. Always happy to hear more!


Any recommendation on pieces to listen to?


----------



## Dim7

Random question: What did Wagner think of Bach?


----------



## KenOC

Dim7 said:


> Random question: What did Wagner think of Bach?


According to a book by somebody named Gutman, Wagner's attitude towards Bach "was respectful but condescending."

https://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagn...&qid=1471553097&sr=1-3&keywords=robert+gutman


----------



## Scopitone

I have this same Hilary Hahn avatar on another forum (not classical focused - I just like the pic). 

A guy messaged me and said that he knows her IRL and that she's just as nice and friendly as you could hope she'd be. 

It's always lovely to hear that an artist you enjoy is apparently a pleasant person, too. That's not always the case!


----------



## motoboy

motoboy said:


> Bruckner is not good gym music.
> (For me, anyway)


But Chabrier "España" is!


----------



## mstar

KenOC said:


> According to a book by somebody named Gutman, Wagner's attitude towards Bach "was respectful but condescending."
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagn...&qid=1471553097&sr=1-3&keywords=robert+gutman


For many years, I was under the impression that every great classical composer and musician practically worships Bach, which led to an odd dream a couple of years ago. In it, I was at a concert with a bunch of composers. Bach finished playing some of his compositions (I forget what) and everyone was clapping enthusiastically. I got fed up, stood up and screamed, "Well, it's not the best!" And two other composers stood up too and said something along those lines. And I said "Yes - score!". 
From then on, I've realized that _not everyone besides myself worships Bach_. A weirdly comforting thought.


----------



## Sloe

Scopitone said:


> It's always lovely to hear that an artist you enjoy is apparently a pleasant person, too. That's not always the case!


When it is not the case do we want to know?


----------



## regenmusic

This is the most amazing thing I've heard recently, totally unique:
Gorecki - Old Polish Music


----------



## Avey

http://www.classical-music.com/arti...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Was not aware of any of these works. So I very much enjoyed this.


----------



## Stavrogin

Now I know I might be reinventing the wheel here, but I was listening to Der Abschied and well, doesn't Morricone's "Gabriel's Oboe" clearly derive from its opening theme?
This doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere, from a quick google search.
Is it just me?


----------



## helenora

watching this now. It's about Celibidache and realizing that this is my favorite conductor so far, not HvK, neither Kleiber

"Music isn't a metaphor for life's struggles, beauties, emotions, triumphs or anything else; it just is"


----------



## Guest

With a bit of a splurge of CD buying in the last couple of years I've now got the distinct possibility of forgetting about recent acquisitions. Plus, deciding what to listen to can be bothersome for this bear of small brain.

So I have decided to play my way through my CDs in alphabetical order, only bypassing stuff I've played a lot.

Jeez have I got enough JS Bach


----------



## Stavrogin

dogen said:


> With a bit of a splurge of CD buying in the last couple of years I've now got the distinct possibility of forgetting about recent acquisitions. Plus, deciding what to listen to can be bothersome for this bear of small brain.
> 
> So I have decided to play my way through my CDs in alphabetical order, only bypassing stuff I've played a lot.
> 
> Jeez have I got enough JS Bach


Alphabetical order of what? Composer's last name? First name? Interpreter's? Conductor's? Label?


----------



## helenora

Avey said:


> http://www.classical-music.com/arti...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> Was not aware of any of these works. So I very much enjoyed this.


yes, many of them are actually cool! even though some of them I can't stand :lol:


----------



## senza sordino

I wonder if there is an appetite for another TC recommended list, now that the pre 1700 list is finished?

Lists I would like to see:
Piano trios (I know there is already a list of piano chamber works, but I would like to see an exclusive piano trios list - this is not my original idea)

Violin Concerti (I know there is a list of string concerti, but it's a bit of a muddle when viola and cello concerti are in the mix)

Works for guitar and lute (I know the repertoire isn't large, and it wouldn't be a long list, works for guitar / lute and ensemble and works for guitar / lute solo)

Works for solo instruments, excluding the piano and guitar. (Solo violin, cello, flute etc. Though I suspect this would be quite a short list)

And sometimes I don't think these lists need to be ranked, they could just be an alphabetical list or chronological as a point of reference. I really like music for guitar but I'm sure that there's a lot of music I'm missing simply because I don't know it exists. 

And there is no harm in updating a previously existing list as there are new people here now. And personal tastes change over time. You updated the opera list. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Weston

I've finally gone and purchased an album twice even after careful cataloging. I guess my collection has become unwieldy. Maybe it's time to just listen to what I've got (as dogen also mentions above). 
:-(


----------



## Guest

Stavrogin said:


> Alphabetical order of what? Composer's last name? First name? Interpreter's? Conductor's? Label?


Composer surname! Xenakis will have a bit of a wait.


----------



## Guest

There should be an International Convention on the design of multiple CD cases! I've just broken another one thinking it opened a certain way....and it didn't....


----------



## Dim7

dogen said:


> There should be an International Convention on the design of multiple CD cases! I've just broken another one thinking it opened a certain way....and it didn't....


I once saw a dream in which I had bought a video game, of which disk was very difficult to extract from the case. A seemingly brilliant idea to take the disk out with my teeth occurred to me, but it didn't work and I broke it. But that's just crazy dream physics, I recommend trying this out in real life.


----------



## Guest

Thanks, I'll give it a try.


----------



## Wood

Scopitone said:


> "Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you drink beer." - Arnold Schwarzenegger, _Pumping Iron_


"Alcohol doesn't solve your problems, but then again neither does milk." - Someone Else


----------



## Wood

regenmusic said:


> Mozart's Mocha Arts maybe? Hard to beat the play on words of Rimsky Korsakoffee coffee house! I was hoping someone could do it.


Can't beat it, though Liverpool did have a Meyerbeer Hall.


----------



## Funny

This blew me away, so I'm cross-posting it from the Haydn thread...

I've been listening to the first movement of Symphony #28 a lot recently and finally realized the incredible feat that Haydn pulled off. As it opens, it's obviously in 6/8 - there's no doubt possible. As he gets to the end of the exposition there are hemiola accents that make it sound briefly as though it's in 3/4. Nothing too out of the ordinary there.

Except that as the movement progresses, especially in the recapitulation, the 3/4 accents start adding up and briefly making the listener hear things as possibly proceeding in THAT meter instead of 6/8. Easy to shake off, but still notable.

Thing is, the whole movement is NOTATED IN 3/4. In other words, the REAL meter is 3/4. Everything you're hearing in 6/8 is essentially an ILLUSION. Now, this could be merely an affectation, but over dozens of listenings I've found that, increasingly, I can hear larger and larger portions of the movement as really, truly being in 3/4!

Of the versions online, I've found Hogwood's (though I consider his tempo too fast) best captures the delicious ambiguity if you want to listen for it. 




This is something I've never heard of anyone doing, though it is something I've conceived of doing myself - writing a whole piece that can be validly heard in TWO different meters simultaneously. Much as I've been wondering how to pull this off, Haydn already accomplished it back in 1765. An absolutely transcendent exercise in visionary musicianship, wrapped, as usual, in tuneful, catchy music that pleases the ear from start to finish.


----------



## Stavrogin

dogen said:


> Composer surname! Xenakis will have a bit of a wait.


Beethoven or van Beethoven?


----------



## Guest

Stavrogin said:


> Beethoven or van Beethoven?


Beethoven! Don't make my life any more complicated than it needs to be!

Anyway, it didn't last long I've got stuck on Scriabin and Ravel now.


----------



## clavichorder

Were CPE Bach and WF Bach(JC as well) like the post Wagnerian French/Debussy composers to their father? Rebellious and concerned more with possibilities in more raw musical sounds, struggling with and ultimately profiting from the massive intellect behind them(or over their shoulders in the case of the Bachs).


----------



## Weston

Funny said:


> This blew me away, so I'm cross-posting it from the Haydn thread...
> 
> I've been listening to the first movement of Symphony #28 a lot recently and finally realized the incredible feat that Haydn pulled off. As it opens, it's obviously in 6/8 - there's no doubt possible. As he gets to the end of the exposition there are hemiola accents that make it sound briefly as though it's in 3/4. Nothing too out of the ordinary there.
> 
> Except that as the movement progresses, especially in the recapitulation, the 3/4 accents start adding up and briefly making the listener hear things as possibly proceeding in THAT meter instead of 6/8. Easy to shake off, but still notable.
> 
> Thing is, the whole movement is NOTATED IN 3/4. In other words, the REAL meter is 3/4. Everything you're hearing in 6/8 is essentially an ILLUSION. Now, this could be merely an affectation, but over dozens of listenings I've found that, increasingly, I can hear larger and larger portions of the movement as really, truly being in 3/4!
> 
> Of the versions online, I've found Hogwood's (though I consider his tempo too fast) best captures the delicious ambiguity if you want to listen for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I've never heard of anyone doing, though it is something I've conceived of doing myself - writing a whole piece that can be validly heard in TWO different meters simultaneously. Much as I've been wondering how to pull this off, Haydn already accomplished it back in 1765. An absolutely transcendent exercise in visionary musicianship, wrapped, as usual, in tuneful, catchy music that pleases the ear from start to finish.


I've never really understood the difference between 6/8 and 3/4. I know it's a matter of accent and feeling, but as far as the score, either could be written either way couldn't they? Maybe the 3/4 just works better for score legibility.

Having said that, I find this analysis really interesting and now I can't wait to get home and listen to #28! I have a long wait however.


----------



## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> I've never really understood the difference between 6/8 and 3/4. I know it's a matter of accent and feeling, but as far as the score, either could be written either way couldn't they? Maybe the 3/4 just works better for score legibility.(


You count 6/8 in 6 or 2, while you count 3/4 in 3 or 1 (the latter if it's at particularly fast tempos).


----------



## Weston

The bad news is, I don't have Symphony No. 28. I guess I'll have to stream it on Spotify. A Hogwood version is available there.


----------



## Dedalus

Why are Webern's pieces all so dang brief? Is it to make you wish for more? What is his longest piece anyway? His 10 minute symphony?


----------



## omega

I love Brahms' 1st Piano Concerto. His 2nd disappoints me…


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

The second Cantata is around 15 mins.

Nono's "Il Canto Sospeso" lasts more than half an hour and pretty much sounds like Webern. I'd rather listen to a shorter piece actually written by Webern.


----------



## micro

Bruckner's symphony No. 4 is the best thing happened in the 1870s.


----------



## EdwardBast

Tchaikovsky's Symphony no. 4 was the best Symphony no. 4 composed in the 1870s.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Holy fries, Shostakovich's awesome.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Apparently "Tchaikovsky" can also be spelled "Tjajkovskij".


----------



## MalariaMan

*Musical borrowing*

I was just thinking that we can link music together from several composers, like: Beethoven's 5th (main theme)-Mendelssohn Songs without words (Funeral March) - Tchaikovsky's 4th (trumpet call)- Mahler's 5th (trumpet call). Can you suggest other musical continuities that span the ages, like this?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Ednasilem et Saellep

Act 1- A strange ritual where a newborn is put inside a dead woman (Ednasilem), she revives and Dualog asks her for the truth and she admits to have loved Saellep then she tells everyone to close the windows, she falls asleep while a doctor tells her she'll be fine.

Act 2 - Ednasilem tells Dualog she doesn't have the courage but he takes the sword out of Saellep's dead body and she kisses it and so Saellep revives and she confesses her love for him once again... 

etc


----------



## Weston

MalariaMan said:


> I was just thinking that we can link music together from several composers, like: Beethoven's 5th (main theme)-Mendelssohn Songs without words (Funeral March) - Tchaikovsky's 4th (trumpet call)- Mahler's 5th (trumpet call). Can you suggest other musical continuities that span the ages, like this?


I think maybe this idea _does_ deserve a thread of its own. I haven't seen one like it. It may make a fun game-type thread if someone could come up with some guidelines -- post links to Youtube examples with minute and second marks; try not to post a link to a work mentioned in the last two pages, general consensus that there is a valid connection between the pieces somehow, etc.

Hmmm.


----------



## Woodduck

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Ednasilem et Saellep
> 
> Act 1- A strange ritual where a newborn is put inside a dead woman (Ednasilem), she revives and Dualog asks her for the truth and she admits to have loved Saellep then she tells everyone to close the windows, she falls asleep while a doctor tells her she'll be fine.
> 
> Act 2 - Ednasilem tells Dualog she doesn't have the courage but he takes the sword out of Saellep's dead body and she kisses it and so Saellep revives and she confesses her love for him once again...
> 
> etc


Nice opera plot, as far as it goes, but the ending is pretty predictable, isn't it? Ednasilem sitting by a spring crying and Dualog getting lost in the woods? Audiences will see that coming a mile away! People like a little twist at the end, but they also want something they can identify with. So may I suggest that in the final scene, when Dualog takes Ednasilem to the mysterious dark forest, sits her down by the spring, and asks her who she is and where she's from, she could say to him:

"So, look, what's with the questions? Just because some alien dressed like a doctor planted a baby in me while I was, like, drugged unconscious in your bed doesn't mean the kid's going to look like _you_ when it becomes a fetus. I mean, marriage wasn't exactly my idea, was it? I thought this was just a hookup - I only do hookups - I never promised an exclusive relationship, and I mean, I don't control your little brother's, like, _prick_, and why should I tell you my name - but OK, who cares, it's Ednasilem, weird, right? - and besides it's none of your friggin' business where I come from. Hey, keep your paws off me! _No_ means _no!_ You see that mysterious dark forest over there? Well, so, _get lost!_ Man, I'm outa here."

With that she would reach down into the spring and grab the waterproof iphone she dropped there for symbolic reasons, send a quick text message (supratitle: "hi saellep omw lyb"), put the phone in her thigh holster, throw Duolog a look of disgust, and walk off.

See? We can all identify with that. Do you think Edualc Ellihca Yssubed should compose the music for it? Or is his stuff too hard-edged and visceral?


----------



## brianvds

After reading and contributing here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/45228-most-radical-baroque-piece.html

Been listening to Gesualdo madrigals. Man oh man. Almost half a millennium later and it still sounds completely fresh and original.


----------



## Chronochromie

brianvds said:


> After reading and contributing here:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/45228-most-radical-baroque-piece.html
> 
> Been listening to Gesualdo madrigals. Man oh man. Almost half a millennium later and it still sounds completely fresh and original.


If you want to hear something similar done half a century earlier, check out Prophetiae Sibyllarum by Lassus.


----------



## Sloe

brianvds said:


> After reading and contributing here:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/45228-most-radical-baroque-piece.html
> 
> Been listening to Gesualdo madrigals. Man oh man. Almost half a millennium later and it still sounds completely fresh and original.


I only like to listen to music by Gesualdo because he was a murderer.


----------



## James Mann

Sloe said:


> I only like to listen to music by Gesualdo because he was a murderer.


I'm glad I'm not the only one!


----------



## MalariaMan

Weston said:


> I think maybe this idea _does_ deserve a thread of its own. I haven't seen one like it. It may make a fun game-type thread if someone could come up with some guidelines -- post links to Youtube examples with minute and second marks; try not to post a link to a work mentioned in the last two pages, general consensus that there is a valid connection between the pieces somehow, etc.
> 
> Hmmm.


That sounds fun, although I have no idea of how to start a thread.  I'm pretty new at this forum.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

MalariaMan said:


> That sounds fun, although I have no idea of how to start a thread.  I'm pretty new at this forum.


I can make it for you. 

Do you mind if I expand the idea further? You'll see...


----------



## Weston

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I can make it for you.
> 
> Do you mind if I expand the idea further? You'll see...


Glad you are stepping up to the plate. It's pretty half baked in _my_ head.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Oh and for your information Malariaman, you can't make threads or do most member stuff until you teach 10 posts, so that's why you probably haven't seen any way to make a thread. Just keep posting and you'll get there soon enough.


----------



## MalariaMan

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I can make it for you.
> 
> Do you mind if I expand the idea further? You'll see...


Oh my.. .now i'm both curious and slightly scared :lol: Go ahead!


----------



## MalariaMan

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Oh and for your information Malariaman, you can't make threads or do most member stuff until you teach 10 posts, so that's why you probably haven't seen any way to make a thread. Just keep posting and you'll get there soon enough.


That must be it  Better get on to it, then! thanks.


----------



## brianvds

Sloe said:


> I only like to listen to music by Gesualdo because he was a murderer.


I tend to think of him as a sort of Hannibal Lecter-like personality, what with all the velvet-smooth music and complex counterpoint, combined with a murderous personality...


----------



## Sloe

brianvds said:


> I tend to think of him as a sort of Hannibal Lecter-like personality, what with all the velvet-smooth music and complex counterpoint, combined with a murderous personality...


He killed his five and her lover so I think of him more like Canio in Pagliacci or Andy Dufresne in the first half of The Shawshank Redemption until you find out that he is innocent sorry for the *spoiler*.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Maybe Anglophones figure if the Germans are going to make the effort of writing an additional letter, then they should make the effort of pronouncing it closer to right.


I doubt it; most anglophones seldom make too much effort in pronouncing "foreign" words properly, and many don't even bother to try. There are, of course, exceptions that prove the rule; and more power to them.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

The Universe beginning at infinity running backwards ending in reverse big bang.


----------



## Weston

There is a high percentage of digital purchases with anomalies or glitches (not intended to be glitch music I mean). My most recent one is an album of Koechlin sonatas. Track 7 has a terrible noise / skip / breakup about a third of the way through. It's from Amaz*n, but I tested it on Spotify and the exact same glitch is there as well. It must come from the label itself. Don't these people test their product?










_Caveat emptor_ I guess.


----------



## Klassic

My friends I think this thread on Classical music and THC (which is now closed) is very much worth reading. 
http://www.talkclassical.com/45394-thc-classical-music-telling.html


----------



## Blancrocher

Klassic said:


> My friends I think this thread on Classical music and THC (which is now closed) is very much worth reading.
> http://www.talkclassical.com/45394-thc-classical-music-telling.html


Can we respond to posts from that thread here, or would that be against the spirit of the thread closure?


----------



## Klassic

Blancrocher said:


> Can we respond to posts from that thread here, or would that be against the spirit of the thread closure?


I'm not a mod, but surely if its closed then we should let it be. The time for that is past.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I'm loving the sinfonias from Bach's cantatas, a largely ignored body of work by me thus far. Probably because I much prefer purely instrumental music over music with vocals but hey, I can just pick the sinfonias from the cantatas.


----------



## Dedalus

100 years from now, what would a book about musical invective in rap music be like?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Had Mendelssohn had any same-sex lovers, we would never be able to know about them for he would have had the correspondence burnt.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Frank Zappa must get the award for writing the weirdest song names:

“My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama”
“Why Does It Hurt When I Pee?”
“I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth”


----------



## DeepR

Is there any "western" classical music that uses non-western "ethnic" instruments, along with the more standard classical music instruments? If not, why? 
How about the Armenian Duduk or the Indian Sarod. I love the sound of those. 
Seems to me these wonderful instruments are only used in film, ambient and new age music (some of which I happen to like). And obviously in native music from the countries of origin.


----------



## Stavrogin

DeepR said:


> Is there any "western" classical music that uses non-western "ethnic" instruments, along with the more standard classical music instruments? If not, why?
> How about the Armenian Duduk or the Indian Sarod. I love the sound of those.
> Seems to me these wonderful instruments are only used in film, ambient and new age music (some of which I happen to like). And obviously in native music from the countries of origin.


If I remember well, Giya Kancheli - who is Georgian, so maybe geographically at the borderline between West and East, but musically definitely Western - makes use of traditional Georgian instruments. Not sure about the duduk (even though one of his works is called ...À la Duduki), but there is certainly a Diplipito (a sort of bongo drum) in the eponymous work from 2001.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Classicaloid is premiering tonight! 

Finally!

I've waited a year for this classical music anime.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

DeepR said:


> Is there any "western" classical music that uses non-western "ethnic" instruments, along with the more standard classical music instruments?


Boulez, _Sur incises_, steel drums.


----------



## Weston

So a year or so ago I purchased the 1963 von Karajan Beethoven symphony cycle, being assured it is about his best. I've put off listening to the whole thing. These works I don't want to wear out, especially the 9th. However today at work some of the 9th came on at random in my headphones and --

I felt part of it is out of tune! Out of tune?? The Berlin Philharmonic? I backed up and listened again to the scherzo, and yes to my ears the brass is a little out of tune.

What's going on here? Is it just me? The strings sound fine. It's just the brass that seems a little off. It's very subtle but enough to be a real distraction. I'm not sure I can bring myself to listen to the finale if it is the same way.

Now I may need yet another Beethoven symphony cycle, maybe one more modern but still non-HIP, full of fire, passion and thunder.

Edit: I've got this Chailly / Gewandhaus bookmarked. The samples sound closer to what I'm looking for.


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## Magnum Miserium

Thesis: Since World War II, French music has been divided between those more affiliated with America - French jazz (e.g. Martial Solal), Éliane Radigue (the most important non-American minimalist?) - and those more affiliated with Germany - Grisey and Murail (descending from Stockhausen), Boulez (obviously) - perhaps reflecting a political division between the same. (Russia is nowhere, which is to be expected, since that's where Russian music has been since 1917.)

The German affiliated strain has probably produced the greater music, but I hope the American affiliated strain wins. It sounds happier.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I interrupt the usual intellectually oriented posts in these thread with a picture of Mendelssohn I have just drawn.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

For some reason, my newly updated browser doesn't understand when I click the "like" button here - at least I assume that's the problem; anyway, I can't "like" things right now - but if I could, I would "like" that so hard.

BTW, Mendelssohn would SO be a pioneer of conducting from a mobile device.


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## hpowders

My favorite Beethoven piano concerto is the first (the second that was composed), so I naturally gravitate to the early piano sonatas; no. 2 in A Major is a particularly irresistible favorite of mine.


----------



## Pugg

Victor Herbert serenades, the don't need a whole thread, wonderful music though .


----------



## hpowders

Why can't conductor search committees ever hire conductors named Bobby Johnson, for example? So easy to spell.

Why must it always be someone named Yannick Nézet-Séguin? Ridiculous!

Keep it simple!!


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## Magnum Miserium

If you had to guess in 1695 which provincial music scene was most likely to dominate Western music in the coming centuries, England (Purcell) would probably have seemed about as good a bet as Germany (yes, they'd had Schütz and Froberger, but they died a whole generation ago, and yes, Buxtehude was pretty good, but then half of the people you ask will tell you he's Danish anyway).


----------



## hpowders

MagneticGhost said:


> Grieg wrote a cello concerto!!!!
> Who knew?


His mother.


----------



## hpowders

Am I the only poster on TC who believes the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto is a magnificent composition?


----------



## Weston

hpowders said:


> Why can't conductor search committees ever hire conductors named Bobby Johnson, for example? So easy to spell.
> 
> Why must it always be someone named Yannick Nézet-Séguin? Ridiculous!
> 
> Keep it simple!!


As to that I think orchestras should start naming themselves like rock bands. So Gewandhausorchester Leipzig could be called The Beatless or maybe Immortal Toxin. Much easier.


----------



## Weston

I have a tendency to take avatars at face value, so now KenOC has me thinking he is Isaac Asimov. Hey dude - why did you hardly ever put any aliens in your stories?


----------



## KenOC

Weston said:


> I have a tendency to take avatars at face value, so now KenOC has me thinking he is Isaac Asimov. Hey dude - why did you hardly ever put any aliens in your stories?


Try _The Gods Themselves_.

https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Themsel...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1475985868&sr=1-1


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Why must it always be someone named Yannick Nézet-Séguin? Ridiculous!


Michael Tilson Thomas, when he started out, was billed as Mike Thomas. He found it wise to change that.


----------



## MalariaMan

*The mighty five's leader*

What are your thoughts on Balakirev? Good composer and innovative, or just too much talk and not so much good work? And what are you favourite stories, works by him?


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

*Music shouldn't have limits*

The only limits of expression, should be the individuals themselves. I've been thinking hard about it lately and I don't see why you can't listen to Stockhausen with the same amount of respect and interest as Bach or Led Zeppelin or Brian Eno etc. It's all really really good music!

Just a thought!


----------



## Pat Fairlea

MalariaMan said:


> What are your thoughts on Balakirev? Good composer and innovative, or just too much talk and not so much good work? And what are you favourite stories, works by him?


I only know a few pieces by Balakirev, and they are all interesting. But Islamey is magnificent. Apparently it was a favourite of Rachmaninov's though he never recorded it, more's the pity.


----------



## hpowders

The greatest Brahms, in my opinion, is late autumnal Brahms. The Brahms of the two clarinet sonatas, the clarinet trio, the clarinet quintet and the late short solo piano pieces.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

hpowders said:


> The greatest Brahms, in my opinion, is late autumnal Brahms. The Brahms of the two clarinet sonatas, the clarinet trio, the clarinet quintet and the late short solo piano pieces.


Yes!!! Oh he just got so good it hurts to think about it...

And the second greatest Brahms, perhaps, is the mid autumnal Brahms immediately before that, of the piano trio in C minor, the concerto for violin and cello, and the Prater sextet.


----------



## Weston

KenOC said:


> Try _The Gods Themselves_.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Themsel...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1475985868&sr=1-1


Tried it a year or so ago. My Goodreads review is desultory I'm afraid.


----------



## Weston

Is Beethoven using a pencil to write the Missa Solemnis in the Stieler portrait? Prior to this you see composers using plumes, although how much of that is artistic license I wouldn't know.


----------



## DeepR

Any classical music with bongos and congas and other such percussion? I'm thinking intense adrenaline pumping African rhythms with Brucknerian brass and crazy flute lines on top or whatever.  (not soundtrack music!)


----------



## jenspen

DeepR said:


> Is there any "western" classical music that uses non-western "ethnic" instruments, along with the more standard classical music instruments?


Well, the didgeridoo is as non-Western as you can get:






This instrument was used in a number of works by Peter Sculthorpe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sculthorpe


----------



## Weston

DeepR said:


> Any classical music with bongos and congas and other such percussion? I'm thinking intense adrenaline pumping African rhythms with Brucknerian brass and crazy flute lines on top or whatever.  (not soundtrack music!)


Maybe Michael Daugherty? I'll have to wait until I get home to look for samples. Some of his music sounds like it is inspired by 1950s and 60s cold war spy movie and TV theme music. But it's definitely classical, not soundtrack.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

My wife, Elly, made my day yesterday! She "sang" the theme to Wilhelm Tell and ended it with "HEY MACARENA!". Maybe silly mashups should be an own thread?


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

If Beethoven opened a five star restaurant, I wouldn't go there


----------



## KenOC

Weston said:


> Is Beethoven using a pencil to write the Missa Solemnis in the Stieler portrait? Prior to this you see composers using plumes, although how much of that is artistic license I wouldn't know.


The biographers tell us that Beethoven normally used Stabilo 88s except in his initial sketches.


----------



## Ariasexta

Punks should be correctly treated as what they are, not as something they are not. It is about the correct conception of what is being music. Anyone is free to creat punk or music for themself, keep them for themself, as long as do not promote the wrong ideas.


----------



## Ariasexta

Music has become a refugium for many talentless people who are either bad at the art of writing or at reading, I even doubt some of the so called modern composers can properly play any musical instrument. Today our musical society is so free that inanity is accepted as creativity and novelity, as long as the records sells, there will be no room for people to question their ability. Especially people do not read much today, good books do not always sell, Nobel literature laureates do not sell much before they won the prize, but many people who do not read may listen to music, nobody is there to question the quality of music. Nobody will ever question the quality of punks as long as they sell so good, our modern celebrities are the perfect parallels of modern classical businessmen, it looks like it takes very few intelligence to make a popular song without getting criticism, they can take drugs, drink vodka while composing, playing music. Music is very easy to exploit with, all talentless people flock to it and created an enormous load of inanity and nobody will ever question. While it seems easy to creat bad music, why it should be difficult to openly criticize? 

Everyone can not deny a hard reality, modern music is plagued with overwhelming bad punks, talentless musicians are the majority. You all `better reconsider the value of modern classical "music", stop wasting your time on them.


----------



## Ariasexta

Oscar Wilde is right when he says: The work of art reflects the spectators not the artist who creats it. We have an overwhelming mass audience that do not read or write, there are many drunken, dopen, thoughtless people playing with the notes. I do not see any ground to appreciate these music as classical.


----------



## Ariasexta

Let alone our modern age is devastated with post-modernist deconstructionism, nihilism, music has become a tool of destruction for these corruptive ideologies, namely a kind of weapon for soul-slaying. Those ideologies behind are not just about the denial of tonality, also of humanity, and everything that is derived from the classical philosophy. The Modern classical is not an continuation from romantic age, but a war targeted against classical heritage, only by denying and destroying everyhting central to classical music this kind of punk can paint themself as innovative, they are worhthless when left alone, just like the parasites on the classical heritage, they will eventually cause the destruction of the classical heritage, after all they themself will perish too.


----------



## bharbeke

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> If Beethoven opened a five star restaurant, I wouldn't go there


As far as I know, he was not a cook or chef. I would not go to his restaurant on name recognition, but if publications and word of mouth were praising the restaurant highly, why not eat there?


----------



## Merl

Beethoven's restaurant would be crap. He'd never be able to hear all the food orders. If Klemperer were working there the service would be painfully slow, too.


----------



## Avey

Had the classical station on the television, and this shows up and gives me a palpitation, makes me anxious:









Not sure who's to blame for that one. Sounded _maybe_ like early Bruckner, possibly even Schuman or Liszt.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Merl said:


> Beethoven's restaurant would be crap. He'd never be able to hear all the food orders. If Klemperer were working there the service would be painfully slow, too.


He'd have the people place their orders by writing down what they want on a note pad. Then he'd read the customers' orders off the notepad.


----------



## hpowders

If Furtwängler managed the place, the service would be sometimes too slow, sometimes too fast.


----------



## Pugg

Merl said:


> Beethoven's restaurant would be crap. He'd never be able to hear all the food orders. If Klemperer were working there the service would be painfully slow, too.


This is a very good one. :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

Welcome to MY world!

A TC post: Why do my kids and their friends keep torturing me with classical music?


----------



## Dim7

Even though I have no trouble pronouncing Mozart correctly when speaking my native language, I find it hard to not pronounce it "Moe's art" when speaking English.


----------



## Dedalus

My post was deleted. I'm not surprised or upset. It was a bit of a lark really. I do personally think the subject should be a legitimate and uncontroversial line of inquiry but I accept that most may not agree. Mod response time was quick though! It couldn't have been much more than 20 minutes between posting and deletion. I wonder how many flagged it... I found it funny though. I have no regrets.


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

Dedalus said:


> My post was deleted. I'm not surprised or upset. It was a bit of a lark really. I do personally think the subject should be a legitimate and uncontroversial line of inquiry but I accept that most may not agree. Mod response time was quick though! It couldn't have been much more than 20 minutes between posting and deletion. I wonder how many flagged it... I found it funny though. I have no regrets.


All humans do it/have done it to some degree, It's nothing too extreme. I'm still surprised how slow us humans take to evolve stigmas, specifically stigmas that they themselves do between closed doors... :tiphat:


----------



## Omicron9

A couple of years ago when I discovered the Britten solo cello suites: I was surprised to learn that he had composed solo cello works. I bought a copy immediately (Truls Mork) and love them. Then I felt like an idiot for *not* knowing that he had composed solo cello works. 

If you don't know them, consider this a recommendation.

Regards,
-09


----------



## Merl

I've spent years hunting down a lossless rip (from vinyl) of Dorati's Beethoven cycle with the RPO (never released on CD / digital - tapes supposedly lost) and finally picked it up today. Playing it thru now and it's pretty underwhelming at the moment. Nowhere near as good as the LSO recordings on Mercury. Ah well, at least I can say I've got it.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

So after a year and some's worth of exploring opera I think I understand why so many people dislike operatic singing. My knowledge of technical terms is limited so I won't delve into details here.

1. The bagpipes effect - no dynamics in the volume. Operatic singing often subjects me to a sequence of several tones belted from the exact same place with the same (often very loud) amplitude in a way that just sounds totally unnatural and irritating to me. We can only bear a few seconds of that before our ears naturally crave relief.






I adore Gwyneth Jones but she perpetrates this often. The relentless constancy of her singing's volume in this opening of Tannhauser is just tortuously unnecessary IMO.

2. Inflection often seems sacrificed for the sake of this volume. I think an example best illustrates this point too (I actually love both of these performances).










In the second performance, dynamics of volume and the seeming "location" of the singer's projection seem to naturally follow his use of inflection to convey emotion. Whereas in the first performance I'm not sure I'd even be able to pinpoint an emotion if I were to isolate the singing from the orchestra. This use of speech-like inflections and tones is something I've found to be _extremely_ rare in operatic singing, and, for many people, it's what makes the human voice special in the first place. The absence of this quality in most performances produces the common criticism that opera sounds unnatural.

I've lately tended toward Karajan and, to a lesser extent, Boulez's Ring Cycles because the performances in these tend more toward this "natural" sound.

Maybe it's something like the difference between stage acting and screen acting. Much of what I hear sounds like it's more interested in being heard loud and clear from a mile away than actually conveying any sort of emotion at all. I've come to love so much opera and vocal CM that I hate to say I find much legitimacy in the hatred of classical singing.


----------



## Weston

Wow, this thread sank to page 3 as of this post and in my browser's settings. That's probably unusual.

My current random thought: I seem to be hearing brass as subtly out of tune lately. I first noticed it in a 1963 Karajan Beethoven symphony and complained about it here, but now I notice it elsewhere. Is there something going on with my hearing? It's only brass though. Strings and woodwinds sound fine. That doesn't make sense. Are brass instruments harder to keep in tune or something?

On the other hand I've always felt the baroque recorder often sounds out of tune especially in higher notes, but I put that down to some kind of Just temperament. This brass thing is a new development. 

I need to listen to a recording I've always loved with lots of brass and see if I notice -- Mars from The Planets, or Les Preludes maybe. It could be all in my head, where hearing really takes place.


----------



## hpowders

There is only one work composed by Debussy that I enjoy, the piano piece, L'isle joyeuse, but I love it so insanely, with a "passion d'or"; a work that I would include in the top 10 classical compositions ever composed and based on this one work alone, is proof enough for me that Debussy must be included in a short list of the all-time greatest of classical composers.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> There is only one work composed by Debussy that I enjoy, the piano piece, L'isle joyeuse, but I love it so insanely, with a "passion d'or"; a work that I would include in the top 10 classical compositions ever composed and based on this one work alone, is proof enough for me that Debussy must be included in a short list of the all-time greatest of classical composers.


Only one composition and an all time greatest .......


----------



## brianvds

Just discovered this on the Tube:






Yet another obscure but eminently listenable work...


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

I wonder why my family hates me and my sister got a restraining order against me?


----------



## Bettina

Post deleted...accidentally double-posted


----------



## Bettina

post deleted...accidentally double-posted


----------



## Bettina

hpowders said:


> There is only one work composed by Debussy that I enjoy, the piano piece, L'isle joyeuse, but I love it so insanely, with a "passion d'or"; a work that I would include in the top 10 classical compositions ever composed and based on this one work alone, is proof enough for me that Debussy must be included in a short list of the all-time greatest of classical composers.


I love that piece too! Do you like Debussy's La Danse de Puck? It seems similar to L'isle joyeuse.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> I love that piece too! Do you like Debussy's La Danse de Puck? It seems similar to L'isle joyeuse.


Glad to hear it!

It's fine, but L'isle joyeuse is the most sensual, passionate, colorfully kaleidoscopic piece I know.

I wish I could find that island, Bettina! 

The only piano work that comes close to it, in my opinion, as a kaleidoscope of color is the Ives Concord Piano Sonata, which is much longer.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Bettina said:


> I love that piece too! Do you like Debussy's La Danse de Puck? It seems similar to L'isle joyeuse.


While we're having a collective Debussy hug, how about Feux d'Artifice? Or the whole of his Suite Bergamasque?? Dammit, the man was just too good!


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Awhile back I decided that I wanted translations of Wagner's librettos with each english word directly beneath its corresponding german word so that my experience could be as complete as possible, and while I've been mangling favorite chunks here and there with google translate I have finally finished The Flying Dutchman in its (almost) entirety!

My thought was to get the "boring one" out of the way but I actually really like it! It's neat to hear an angry counterpart to the happy ocean waves in Rheingold.

It really is worth the effort by the way! I'm sure there are people who both speak german and find Wagner boring, but for me indecipherable recitative just devolves into shouting after about 15 minutes and knowing the words cuts down on that numbing effect_ a lot._


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Today is November 3rd. Here's Mendelssohn.










I'll probably end up using you-know-who's death anniversary as an excuse to draw him 100 times or more.


----------



## Razumovskymas

hpowders said:


> There is only one work composed by Debussy that I enjoy, the piano piece, L'isle joyeuse, but I love it so insanely, with a "passion d'or"; a work that I would include in the top 10 classical compositions ever composed and based on this one work alone, is proof enough for me that Debussy must be included in a short list of the all-time greatest of classical composers.


so you don't like Chansons De Bilitis???????? Is that even possible??


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

My taste in classical music seems to progress chronologically through the eras, starting from baroque. I jumped Wagner initially, got as far as William Schuman, went back to Wagner, and then got sad because I'd apparently exhausted my love for anything played on traditional instruments that wasn't Wagner. 

Many Spotify marathons later affirmed there was no more gold to strike - some stuff left to like sure, but nothing left to sound as radical and striking as Wagner did to me.

Anyway brb, binging Stockhausen and Bernard Parmegiani.


----------



## DeepR

I love the Gloria part from Handel's Dixit Dominus so much. Surely one of the greatest pieces of music. Strangely enough I've just listened to literally every available version on youtube and they all leave me cold. There's just one recording that makes me feel it: Anders Ohrwall / Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble / Stockholm Bach Choir.


----------



## hpowders

Two composers whose chamber music is superior to their orchestral music: Brahms and Mendelssohn.

Never tire of the Brahms and Mendelssohn Piano Trios, Mendelssohn String Quartets and Brahms String Sextets.


----------



## Guest

Razumovskymas said:


> so you don't like Chansons De Bilitis???????? Is that even possible??


A bad composer or a bad listener,I think Debussy is a very fine Composer with certainly more than one masterpiece.


----------



## Stavrogin

hpowders said:


> Am I the only poster on TC who believes the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto is a magnificent composition?


You're not, and that extends to music historians too I'd say.


----------



## Stavrogin

Dim7 said:


> Even though I have no trouble pronouncing Mozart correctly when speaking my native language, I find it hard to not pronounce it "Moe's art" when speaking English.


I for one have not yet understood whether the correct pronounciation is "mod's art" or "mot's art" (I've heard it both ways from German speakers).


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

Gautier Capucon is hot. He's the dandy of classical music.


----------



## Pugg

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Gautier Capucon is hot. He's the dandy of classical music.


And he knows it very well.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> post deleted...accidentally double-posted


Refreshingly more interesting than many other posts.


----------



## Bettina

hpowders said:


> Refreshingly more interesting than many other posts.


LOL! Those posts of mine were simply announcements that there was no post. Very much in the style of Cage's 4'33".


----------



## Dim7

Stavrogin said:


> I for one have not yet understood whether the correct pronounciation is "mod's art" or "mot's art" (I've heard it both ways from German speakers).


I wasn't aware that the former was a possible pronunciation. Wikipedia says it's /moːtsaʁt/.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> LOL! Those posts of mine were simply announcements that there was no post. Very much in the style of Cage's 4'33".


It's all "relative". A deleted post can be more rewarding than a post using Wagnerian "techniques".


----------



## motoboy

Pugg's avatars are always pleasing and refreshing.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Post deleted...accidentally double-posted


I can relate.


----------



## Bettina

hpowders said:


> I can relate.


Good, I'm glad that I'm not the only poster who "fux" up! (Mods, don't delete this post. Fux is the name of a very important music theorist.)


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Good, I'm glad that I'm not the only poster who "fux" up! (Mods, don't delete this post. Fux is the name of a very important music theorist.)


Yes it was.

My HS guidance councellor used to call me a fux up all the time.

He gave me an aptitude test and my vocation came up "shepherd". This in the middle of NYC.


----------



## Pugg

Traverso said:


> A bad composer or a bad listener,I think Debussy is a very fine Composer with certainly more than one masterpiece.


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## tdc

I think I'm starting to really like Machaut, I might start a thread on it.


----------



## tdc

I'm interested in recording recommendations of Brahms chamber and solo piano music...I might start a thread on it.


----------



## hpowders

Why does it always seem that when we finally get a stimulating thread, it predictably gets locked down?


----------



## Pugg

tdc said:


> I'm interested in recording recommendations of Brahms chamber and solo piano music...I might start a thread on it.


Great idea tds.


----------



## hpowders

I feel that we are cheating. We are so familiar with Mahler, Bartok, Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy and Copland. Why us? We are so unworthy!

Yet the great masters like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms were never exposed to a note of their music. It's really a shame. Many but not all could have been delighted with the newer music, if accelerated through time.


----------



## Richard8655

hpowders said:


> I feel that we are cheating. We are so familiar with Mahler, Bartok, Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy and Copland. Why us? We are so unworthy!
> 
> Yet the great masters like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms were never exposed to a note of their music. It's really a shame. Many but not all could have been delighted with the newer music, if accelerated through time.


Ya think so? I'd think these early masters would be appalled by the later music of these composers, and probably viewed as variations of cacophony. They were of and from their period. But interesting thought and speculation.


----------



## bharbeke

http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/worst-things-millennial/#dkU2Hpcm3AUW4YHa.97

CD? Some people here are even talking about LPs! I'm not quite a millennial (born in the early 80's), but a lot of these items ring true.


----------



## Chris

Only a small proportion of the CDs in charity shops in UK are classical, but you're almost guaranteed to find at least one copy of this title. This charity shop had five of them. I can only think it was aggressively marketed when it came out.


----------



## Pugg

bharbeke said:


> http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/worst-things-millennial/#dkU2Hpcm3AUW4YHa.97
> 
> CD? Some people here are even talking about LPs! I'm not quite a millennial (born in the early 80's), but a lot of these items ring true.


Nothing wrong with collecting CD or LP.
Nice read though.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I patiently await the day when I can use the word "recommendelssohns".


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Some thoughts on Stockhausen, Xenakis, Parmegiani, Ferrari, and other electronic/electroacoustic composers.

- The longer the piece is, the more boring wankery (yeah yeah much like this post). So far all of my favorite tracks are 6-7 minutes or less. When it's short, a minute will consist of 3-4 interesting sounds in several interesting combinations. When it's long, every 3-4 minutes will consist of 1-2 initially interesting sounds padded out into trance-like droning or repetitive beeping. Just a general rule of course; most pieces float between those two extremes throughout.

- The more of this stuff I listen to, the more it all starts to sound like it was cut from the same 2 or 3 soundboards or soundsets, whatever it is (speaking more on strictly electronic stuff rather than electroacoustic). For awhile the novelty of electronic timbres was starting to wear off. 
- that is, except for Stockhausen and, to a lesser extent, Parmegiani. Kontakte and Gesang der Junglinge continue to sound wildly unique as the rest becomes samey.

- That said, Stockhausen is the king of that boring wankery I was talking about. Oktophonie, Cosmic Pulses, Hymnen, etc. Lots of interesting moments in between the bs. I'm no artist, but there are certain basic rules of drama that should not be broken. Uninterrupted chaos at the exact same tempo for twenty minutes (Cosmic Pulses) is just stupid, as is uninterrupted silence and droning for twenty minutes (Oktophonie).

- Some people see this as a good tether for the uninitiated, but I hate the sound of traditional instruments in the context of an electronic soundscape. My fascination with new sounds drives my interest in this genre so it's a buzzkill when the focus shifts to something so familiar and unsurprising. Same deal with tracks that overuse the human voice, whether singing or speech. I love Gesang der Junglinge but I can't listen to it because those damn kids won't shut up. But whatever; I suspect I'll acquire a taste for these things eventually.

- I do not suspect I will ever acquire a taste for tracks that are blatantly just recordings of nature or a busy street. Neither will I ever enjoy 5 minutes of shifting gravel as music. As ASMR maybe, but music? Nah. Another general rule seems to be that if it couldn't be somewhat easily transcribed to acoustic instruments I probably won't like it because it's probably dirt in a bag, wind, running water, or 30+ minutes of a person just speaking (glad I didn't blind buy that Ferrari set. My goodness).

That came out more negative than I intended it because I'm actually really loving the stuff I do like.


----------



## Dim7

If I were a totalitarian dictator I'd probably ban non-HIP performances of Mozart with the exception of works with keyboard.


----------



## hpowders

I'm all for HIP for Baroque and Classical performances, but I draw the line at Brahms' chamber music and the HIP performances by Hausmusik London of the two Brahms' Sextets. These performances sound a bit dull to these ears and the intonation annoyingly seems to be a bit off throughout.

I'll stick with the modern instrument performances by the Raphael Ensemble. Everything is just right!


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## Pugg

Dim7 said:


> If I were a totalitarian dictator I'd probably ban non-HIP performances of Mozart with the exception of works with keyboard.


But your not, so everyone can move on without fear.


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## hpowders

Two famous composers who composed better chamber music than symphonies: Brahms and Mendelssohn.

Brahms: 3 Piano Trios, 3 Piano Quartets, 2 Clarinet Sonatas, Horn Trio, Clarinet Quintet, Piano Quintet.

Mendelssohn: 2 piano trios, 6 string quartets

These days when I'm reaching for something by Brahms or Mendelssohn, it's from the chamber music section.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

Was Bartok parodying Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony in the 4th mvt. of the Concerto for Orchestra, or were both composers sending up the Vilja song in Lehár's _Die lustige Witwe_?


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## DeepR

Richard8655 said:


> Ya think so? I'd think these early masters would be appalled by the later music of these composers, and probably viewed as variations of cacophony. They were of and from their period. But interesting thought and speculation.


Most of us have learned to appreciate music from different composers and time periods. What makes Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms so different from us that they could not (except being born a few hundred years earlier)? 
Of course there would be initial shock when exposed to music from the future, but don't you think they would be extremely intrigued at same time? They might quickly learn to appreciate the music, especially since they were gifted composers/musicians and all.


----------



## Becca

Richard8655 said:


> Ya think so? I'd think these early masters would be appalled by the later music of these composers, and probably viewed as variations of cacophony. They were of and from their period. But interesting thought and speculation.


Perhaps they would be appalled if transported directly from their time to our own and then exposed to the musically cutting edge. However if they were exposed to the various changes which have occurred since their time, then I am sure that it would all make perfect sense to them.


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## Richard8655

Becca said:


> Perhaps they would be appalled if transported directly from their time to our own and then exposed to the musically cutting edge. However if they were exposed to the various changes which have occurred since their time, then I am sure that it would all make perfect sense to them.


Good point. Music appreciation, adaptation, and understanding is evolutionary. Time machines wouldn't work well in sharing periods.


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## Becca

Playing any part of Tchaikovsky's _Nutcracker_ is strictly forbidden in our office building for the next few weeks. The reason ... the woman who will be conducting the local symphony orchestra for the ballet performances does not want to confuse her memory of the tempi that the dancers require. Ah well, I will play _Rite of Spring_ instead


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I think symphonies suffer the transition to recording more than any other genre of music.

I imagine that the live experience of a string section is that of being enveloped by a tidal wave of sound that approaches from all directions, whereas on recording it becomes a wispy, ghost-like counterpart to the much more solid texture of a single well recorded violin, and that without the benefit of its spacious quality; Bruckner actually sounds much "smaller" than Bach's cello suites, especially if I use bass boost.

When the interplay of instruments and voices is clear without having to shut your eyes and strain your ears, the music acquires a 3 dimensional quality as my attention sways from section to section. It's as easy discerning beads from yarn and glitter from paper-clippings on a collage. But because each section of a recorded orchestra acquires that blurry-phantom quality, with the primary melody in the strings more often than not drowning everything else happening, I almost never experience that 3-dimensional perception - it's like trying to discern a gas-collage of slightly different colored clouds all overlapping each other.

The overall volume of music must pass a certain threshold for us to really enjoy it, and I often notice that my favorite parts of a symphony are audible, but audible beneath that threshold.

I think people struggle to transition into CM for this reason as well; Popular bands and electronic/electronically augmented music, by merely layering several loops of varying instruments and synthetic sounds, however elementary you may find those loops and layers, can offer the listener a sort of timbre-polyphony that on the surface can _seem _more multi-faceted than a Bach fugue.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

A video about Claudio Abbado talking about the influence Tarkovsky's film Andrei Rublev had on a production of the opera Boris Godounov:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

If you ever wondered about your reaction to awesome music combined with total crap, have a listen


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit

I just listened to part of Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto, whilst I accidentally had a movement of Beethoven's eroica going at the same time.......I didn't notice until the violin concerto stopped and there was still music going.....not sure who/ what that says something about.


----------



## musicrom

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I just listened to part of Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto, whilst I accidentally had a movement of Beethoven's eroica going at the same time.......I didn't notice until the violin concerto stopped and there was still music going.....not sure who/ what that says something about.


Haha, don't worry, the same type of thing has happened to me more than once. It's actually made me interested if it's possible to find two pieces that complement each other really well, allowing you to listen to 2+ pieces at once!


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## jailhouse

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> If you ever wondered about your reaction to awesome music combined with total crap, have a listen


Daft Punk is not total crap. Not a big fan but they're definitely a cut above the majority of ****** radio pop music. I'll take DP over Rihanna and Nicki Minaj any day of the week.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

jailhouse said:


> Daft Punk is not total crap. Not a big fan but they're definitely a cut above the majority of ****** radio pop music. I'll take DP over Rihanna and Nicki Minaj any day of the week.


Agreed. Not total crap. I was referring to the linked piece specifically, not them in general, though.


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## Becca

*A modest proposal...*

It just occurred to me that there is a perfect solution for those who reject the completed versions of the Bruckner 9th and Mahler 10th. The Bruckner is missing a last movement and the Mahler has only on fully completed movement, ergo combine them and you have a 'complete' 4 movement symphony


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## Pugg

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Agreed. Not total crap. I was referring to the linked piece specifically, not them in general, though.


Enough to last a life time.:lol:


----------



## EdwardBast

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Was Bartok parodying Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony in the 4th mvt. of the Concerto for Orchestra, or were both composers sending up the Vilja song in Lehár's _Die lustige Witwe_?


There would be no point in either sending up Lehar and neither would have stooped to it - punching way, way below their weight. Shostakovich was apparently using it to represent, albeit incongruously and bizarrely, the German army. Bartok was either laughing with Shostakovich's 7th or laughing at it. I'm inclined to think the latter, but mostly because I can't stand the first movement of the 7th and think using the theme in that way was a gross miscalculation and one of the worst ideas Shostakovich ever had.


----------



## Lenny

I was searching for pieces using Ondes Martenot and bumped to this beatiful arrangement of Buxtehude's Auf meinen lieben Gott by Stokowski.

I've been listening to this countless times now... So good it almost hurts.


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## Weston

hpowders said:


> I feel that we are cheating. We are so familiar with Mahler, Bartok, Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy and Copland. Why us? We are so unworthy!
> 
> Yet the great masters like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms were never exposed to a note of their music. It's really a shame. Many but not all could have been delighted with the newer music, if accelerated through time.


It's an even greater shame we don't have access to the music of the great 22nd century composer, Dr. Horatio Cabbage DDS, who will be able to incorporate the resonance frequencies of his patients' fillings into the soundscape of his audio creations in a five dimensional virtual world. The music won't actually play. You just download the experience and remember having had it, saving lots of time.


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## hpowders

Weston said:


> It's an even greater shame we don't have access to the music of the great 22nd century composer, Dr. Horatio Cabbage DDS, who will be able to incorporate the resonance frequencies of his patients' fillings into the soundscape of his audio creations in a five dimensional virtual world. The music won't actually play. You just download the experience and remember having had it, saving lots of time.


How do you know this? So I'm assuming you must be the voice through which Mozart spoke in his music?

I shoulda known. Not Jerusalem. Not Bethlehem. Not Golgotha. It was all happening in Tennessee.

So James Joyce was wrong about the "Eastern Enchantment" thing in Ulysses.

JC may have to be changed to JD.


----------



## Razumovskymas

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I just listened to part of Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto, whilst I accidentally had a movement of Beethoven's eroica going at the same time.......I didn't notice until the violin concerto stopped and there was still music going.....not sure who/ what that says something about.


that's really funny!!! :lol:

Weren't you a bit suspicious about the pre-romatic/heroïc vibe of the Prokofiev concerto?

Gives me inspiration of maybe another thread: which 2 pieces of music would mix perfectly together?

I once heard Cages 4'33" while accidentally listening to the Liszt sonata in B-minor, it sounded better then ever!


----------



## bharbeke

Some humor for all classical concert attendees out there:

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/thoughts-while-attending-the-first-symphony-in-the-series-my-wife-wanted-to-buy?mbid=social_facebook


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## Razumovskymas

Weston said:


> It's an even greater shame we don't have access to the music of the great 22nd century composer, Dr. Horatio Cabbage DDS, who will be able to incorporate the resonance frequencies of his patients' fillings into the soundscape of his audio creations in a five dimensional virtual world. The music won't actually play. You just download the experience and remember having had it, saving lots of time.


it's an even greater shame that we can't discuss on TC if Mr Cabbage was rather influenced by late Beethoven if not by early Webern OR that we can't put his artistic merits against that of his contemporaries (who of course where somewhat more modern because using patients fillings at that time was already a bit out of fashion) , merits that start at a disadvantage because of the early death of Mr Cabbage and of course THE question rises: what if Mr Cabbage would've lived longer, wouldn't his work have developed in ways that are simply beyond comprehension and by conclusion wasn't Cabbage an incredibly underrated composer??


----------



## DavidA

For those who reckon Lang Lang can't do anything right
http://english.cctv.com/2017/01/11/ARTI51yX36faPTHiZWeNtSeF170111.shtml


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Go get out your old nintendo, or sega...

You got new music to play with.


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## Dedalus

If you were a mega fan of Samuel Barber would that make you a Barberian?


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## hpowders

I could be listening to Beethoven, Schoenberg, Brahms....but when I put on any Bach CD of solo organ, harpsichord or violin music; that's the end of that! It will be Bach 24/7 for weeks or even months!

No other composer has the same mesmerizing effect on my psyche as J.S. Bach, probably because he is the most profound composer of music who ever lived.


----------



## Janspe

I'm very used to finding everything I want to listen to (repertoire-wise, the preferred interpretation might not be available) from Spotify, almost always. So now that I can't find _a single recording_ of Schoenberg's _Von heute auf morgen_, Op. 32, I'm faced with an existential crisis.


----------



## Robert Gamble

Random thought.. When I have a single CD with a single symphony (or concerto, or quartet, etc) on it (when I'm just starting to explore a composer's work) I have no problem with listening to it. But if I pick up a set of a composer's works, I find it hard to play them 'out of order'. For instance, I have a Sibelius set with 1 & 4 paired and then 2 and 3. I know when I start listening to those CDs I'll have to listen to 1 first, change CDs and listen to 2 and 3 and then go back to the first CD. This is also in spite of the fact that Symphony 2 is the one of those 4 that I'm most interested in! 

Anyone else have a similar ADD style with their box collections?


----------



## Razumovskymas

Robert Gamble said:


> Random thought.. When I have a single CD with a single symphony (or concerto, or quartet, etc) on it (when I'm just starting to explore a composer's work) I have no problem with listening to it. But if I pick up a set of a composer's works, I find it hard to play them 'out of order'. For instance, I have a Sibelius set with 1 & 4 paired and then 2 and 3. I know when I start listening to those CDs I'll have to listen to 1 first, change CDs and listen to 2 and 3 and then go back to the first CD. This is also in spite of the fact that Symphony 2 is the one of those 4 that I'm most interested in!
> 
> Anyone else have a similar ADD style with their box collections?


I know how you feel.

Wait till you get to composers where chronology or some kind of numeral order isn't really regarded as THAT important. It's just a scattered oeuvre for all those romantic program music. Hail to opus numbers!

I would love to have a LIST of LISZTs works in chronological order. Some composers you just want to handel chronologically. With Händel for example I don't really care though.


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## maestro267

Similar to the posts above, it's not very often I'll listen to consecutive works on a disc. I treat the works on a single disc as completely separate entities, as they were composed. And if it happens that I do want to listen to consecutive works on the same CD, I'll pause it, go away for a moment or two, then come back fresh and carry on.


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## Robert Gamble

maestro267 said:


> Similar to the posts above, it's not very often I'll listen to consecutive works on a disc. I treat the works on a single disc as completely separate entities, as they were composed. And if it happens that I do want to listen to consecutive works on the same CD, I'll pause it, go away for a moment or two, then come back fresh and carry on.


This makes me think of palate cleansers.. ginger for Chinese food, water for whisky.. What would be a good palate cleanser between different pieces of classical music. Something pleasantly neutral but inoffensive... What piece of classical music (doesn't have to be 'good') would qualify? 

And yet another random thought... Symphonies are an odd beast the more I listen to them. I used to think of them as having a common thread/theme throughout. Pretty quickly I was disabused of that notion. But even in the best symphonies it can be hard for me to sense any connective tissue between movements which often have completely different themes, tempo, etc. I know there are some later symphonies which might use pieces of themes in earlier movements to generate new themes, but for the most part it really feels like listening to an album by a singer or group where songs might be loosely grouped somehow or not at all, and the only real connective tissue is that the singer or band is distinctive enough that you can recognize them. To make a comparison in the other main genre of music I like.. I was expecting symphonies to be like "Operation Mindcrime" but instead they're more like "Rage for Order" (both by Queensryche, the former being a tightly woven concept album, the latter a collection of songs that are all recognizably 'Early Queensryche'). Even that analogy doesn't quite work because concept albums don't usually have the same melodies in all songs like I was sort of expecting in my earliest symphony discoveries. An even better example of what I think I was expecting would be something like the "Longing for the Words" suite of three songs by Wuthering Heights. Each song has the same chorus, sung at different speeds and with different instrumentation, but the rest of each song is unique to each.

Not saying I'm disappointed, just still trying to orient myself properly to what a symphony actually is compared to what I expected.


----------



## Bettina

Robert Gamble said:


> This makes me think of palate cleansers.. ginger for Chinese food, water for whisky.. What would be a good palate cleanser between different pieces of classical music. Something pleasantly neutral but inoffensive... What piece of classical music (doesn't have to be 'good') would qualify?
> 
> And yet another random thought... Symphonies are an odd beast the more I listen to them. I used to think of them as having a common thread/theme throughout. Pretty quickly I was disabused of that notion. But even in the best symphonies it can be hard for me to sense any connective tissue between movements which often have completely different themes, tempo, etc. I know there are some later symphonies which might use pieces of themes in earlier movements to generate new themes, but for the most part it really feels like listening to an album by a singer or group where songs might be loosely grouped somehow or not at all, and the only real connective tissue is that the singer or band is distinctive enough that you can recognize them. To make a comparison in the other main genre of music I like.. I was expecting symphonies to be like "Operation Mindcrime" but instead they're more like "Rage for Order" (both by Queensryche, the former being a tightly woven concept album, the latter a collection of songs that are all recognizably 'Early Queensryche'). Even that analogy doesn't quite work because concept albums don't usually have the same melodies in all songs like I was sort of expecting in my earliest symphony discoveries. An even better example of what I think I was expecting would be something like the "Longing for the Words" suite of three songs by Wuthering Heights. Each song has the same chorus, sung at different speeds and with different instrumentation, but the rest of each song is unique to each.
> 
> Not saying I'm disappointed, just still trying to orient myself properly to what a symphony actually is compared to what I expected.


You're right, the majority of symphonic movements are contrasting rather than complementary. However, there are some symphonies with thematic connections between movements. You might like Franck's Symphony in D Minor and Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony. Both of these symphonies use "cyclic form"--the last movement cycles back to earlier themes.


----------



## Robert Gamble

Bettina said:


> You're right, the majority of symphonic movements are contrasting rather than complementary. However, there are some symphonies with thematic connections between movements. You might like Franck's Symphony in D Minor and Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony. Both of these symphonies use "cyclic form"--the last movement cycles back to earlier themes.


I do have the Franck in D Minor and have listened to it. I'll do so again soon. Thanks for the tip.  To be clear, I still like symphonies (well, not ALL) even if they aren't quite what I originally thought.


----------



## Becca

Bettina said:


> You're right, the majority of symphonic movements are contrasting rather than complementary. However, there are some symphonies with thematic connections between movements. You might like Franck's Symphony in D Minor and Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony. Both of these symphonies use "cyclic form"--the last movement cycles back to earlier themes.


As does many of the Mahler symphonies - try the first.


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## Tchaikov6

Becca said:


> As does many of the Mahler symphonies - try the first.


The fourth symphony of Schumann is very thematically connected.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

IT'S PHILLIP GLASS! EINSTEIN ON THE BEACH! Don't you hear it??? (just for the first 30 seconds)


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## Granate

*Wagner fan favourites (Sigh)*

I'm giving a second chance to Wagner operas as soon as I finish with Bruckner's No.9. I think I have clear the recordings, all of them reccomended in this site (thanks). 
Many of them are in mono (like Furtwängler Tristan und Isolde and Knappertsbusch and Keilberth Rings). *How should I listen to them to enjoy the most: speakers or headphones?* Also, I am so excited about the Orfeo remastering on Knappertsbusch that I may have my headphones on anyway.
It is my second listen after Karajan's Ring and TUI. Then I was not very eager about Wagner because of his tendency to write *musical* (heavenly musical) *theatre plays* with long and slow speeches *in German* (a language that if only I wanted to understand is because of Gustav Mahler). So that is my other problem.
If I have to pay attention then, *should I leave the listenings* for the Summer and read the libretto?

This is my list if you want to check anything (*no*, I'm leaving Solti and Böhm for another time)


*Ring* (Keilberth 1955, Knappertsbusch 1956)
*Parsifal* (Knappertsbusch 1962 studio)
*Tristan und Isolde* (Furtwängler 1952)
*Lohengrin* (Sawallisch 1962)
*Meistersinger* (Kubelík 1967)


----------



## Robert Gamble

A thought I've had for awhile is that we almost never hear a composer's "true" vision for any work (unless a performance is given that stamp of approval). Obviously this doesn't seem odd to those who started with classical music, and didn't/doesn't seem odd to composers/conductors/listeners. But every piece we hear is effectively a 'cover' of the vision the composer had. This is starkly different from what we see today where most pieces done in the studio by the artist are done until they match what they had in mind and then that's the "reference". We don't see hundreds of covers of great rock songs (a few perhaps... most of which aren't as good as the original). At least in today's music we get to refer to the original when we hear a cover of it. 

But it's interesting to me that we will never hear what Beethoven ACTUALLY intended his symphonies to sound like (or at least we will never know if we actually do hear it by some amazing chance  ). Sure there's the information in the music notation, but there's still a lot of room for interpretation.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

Listening seriously to Strauss's tone poems for the first time, I'm not really hearing how he's a "second-rate" composer...


----------



## Janspe

I love Spotify a lot, as it allows me to access so much great music, but I hate how the pieces are occasionally cut too short. Sometimes a little bit of silence between movements is necessary, and especially older recordings tend to move from one piece to the next without a break - sometimes even omitting the last few notes of the previous movement!

The situation is usually better with newer recordings, fortunately.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Now here's something unusual! _Nadezhda Rimskaya-Korsakova_ (RK's wife) learned a thing or 2 about composition, as well as arrangement. Here's is one of the few surviving things she achieved!


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## Richard8655

Maybe it's just me, but I find that thread about who's the prettiest musician a little superficial and sexist. What does looks have to do with classical music and performance? Just my opinion and expressing it here.


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## KenOC

Richard8655 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I find that thread about who's the prettiest musician a little superficial and sexist. What does looks have to do with classical music and performance? Just my opinion and expressing it here.


"Superficial and sexist." That's me! But still working to perfect my act.


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## Richard8655

KenOC said:


> "Superficial and sexist." That's me! But still working to perfect my act.


You get the award nevertheless!


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## DeepR

Soooo much polls, this vs that and favorite lists....
Why don't we discuss more individual pieces? Each piece of CM deserves its own dedicated topic, from a short piano miniature to the biggest symphony, every piece is a world on itself. 
Let's talk about individual pieces of music: from one-word opinions down the smallest technical detail, anything is more interesting than these endless polls.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

I must agree with you, DeepR. Would be nice to do some dissection of pieces. TC isn't getting its hands messy enough so to speak.


----------



## Janspe

DeepR said:


> Let's talk about individual pieces of music: from one-word opinions down the smallest technical detail, anything is more interesting than these endless polls.


Totally up for this!


----------



## musicrom

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Now here's something unusual! _Nadezhda Rimskaya-Korsakova_ (RK's wife) learned a thing or 2 about composition, as well as arrangement. Here's is one of the few surviving things she achieved!


Indeed, she actually transcribed a good number of works for piano. I thank her for giving me the opportunity to play through some of her husband's magnificent compositions on the piano, with many of her transcriptions being on IMSLP. Unfortunately, most of them are for 4 hands, but that's okay with me.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

DeepR said:


> Soooo much polls, this vs that and favorite lists....
> Why don't we discuss more individual pieces? Each piece of CM deserves its own dedicated topic, from a short piano miniature to the biggest symphony, every piece is a world on itself.
> Let's talk about individual pieces of music: from one-word opinions down the smallest technical detail, anything is more interesting than these endless polls.


Yeah. I'll start. I wonder if anyone has thought of dedicating a thread to 4'33''?


----------



## DeepR

There's nothing wrong with listening to music for relaxation, meditation, introspection, zoning out, whatever. Some people look down on this, too bad for them. Must be stressed out types. 
Even if it's just a soothing effect from sound...it's still a positive thing. Many people in the world today could use a little soothing.


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## Bettina

DeepR said:


> There's nothing wrong with listening to music for relaxation, meditation, introspection, zoning out, whatever. Some people look down on this, too bad for them. Must be stressed out types.
> Even if it's just a soothing effect from sound...it's still a positive thing. Many people in the world today could use a little soothing.


I agree that it is completely valid to use music (classical or otherwise) for relaxation. I can definitely see how some people might find classical music to be relaxing and soothing, although I personally don't experience it in this way. For me, classical music is highly stimulating, both intellectually and emotionally. I can't imagine listening to it for the purposes of unwinding! It usually sends my mind and my feelings into overdrive. :lol:


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I avoided Barenboim's Wagner for a long time because the production I saw on youtube was visually hideous and I couldn't flush those images from my head. Having skimmed it again for about twenty minutes, I've already decided that several scenes in this version will be my go-to renditions. John Tomlinson sings the scariest, most powerful Wotan I've ever heard at the end of Die Walkure, just as I've always imagined I'd like to hear it. 

Some of the more tender moments get crushed beneath the raw power of Barenboim's style, so it's a good thing I'm willing to painstakingly sample dozens of Wagner performances until I find my favorite version of each individual minute in his operas.


----------



## Dedalus

When watching a quartet sometimes they all go by memory, and sometimes they all use scores. Why do you never see a couple of them using scores and the other two by memory? Shouldn't they all just do whatever makes them play best? Is uniformity SO important?


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I don't know why Bruckner 6 isn't more popular. I think it's as good as any of his symphonies.


----------



## Bettina

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I don't know why Bruckner 6 isn't more popular. I think it's as good as any of his symphonies.


I agree. In fact, it's my favorite Bruckner symphony. I love its Phrygian/Neapolitan harmonies, which serve to generate many of the key relationships throughout this work.


----------



## Razumovskymas

Dedalus said:


> When watching a quartet sometimes they all go by memory, and sometimes they all use scores. Why do you never see a couple of them using scores and the other two by memory? Shouldn't they all just do whatever makes them play best? Is uniformity SO important?


I'm imagining a string quartet with 1 musician with a score and I think it would totally mess with the balance that is needed in a string quartet.


----------



## Bettina

Razumovskymas said:


> I'm imagining a string quartet with 1 musician with a score and I think it would totally mess with the balance that is needed in a string quartet.


Yeah, and the one musician with a score might feel embarrassed and self-conscious. Everyone else would be sailing through their parts by memory, and there's the one poor schmuck peering at his score! :lol:


----------



## Razumovskymas

Bettina said:


> Yeah, and the one musician with a score might feel embarrassed and self-conscious. Everyone else would be sailing through their parts by memory, and there's the one poor schmuck peering at his score! :lol:


he's probably forced to sit a bit more aside too, facing the other way :lol:


----------



## Totenfeier

Bettina said:


> I agree. In fact, it's my favorite Bruckner symphony. I love its Phrygian/Neapolitan harmonies, which serve to generate many of the key relationships throughout this work.


Another vote here for the sixth. It's the most _alive_ of his symphonies that I've heard (2; 4-9). In researching it, I read that Mahler made some changes of his own to it before conducting it; can anyone confirm/elaborate on that?


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Is it just me or it the beginning of Tchaikovsky's "Sleeping Beauty" a superior rewrite of the beginning of the overture to Auber's "La muette de Portici"?


----------



## EdwardBast

Magnum Miserium said:


> Is it just me or it the beginning of Tchaikovsky's "Sleeping Beauty" a superior rewrite of the beginning of the overture to Auber's "La muette de Portici"?


There are similar gestures, although sliced and diced differently, and I believe Tchaikovsky liked Auber's music. Certainly possible he had it in the back of his head when he wrote Sleeping Beauty. I think calling it a rewrite goes a bit too far.


----------



## EarthBoundRules

I just listened to Beethoven's _Symphony No. 9_ for the first time in years. But first, a little backstory:

When I first got into classical music, the piece that I was obsessed with is Beethoven's _9th_. I listened to it dozens of times in a very short period, and after a while, I got sick of it. This made me upset, and was one of the reasons I stopped listening to classical for a while (in favor of rock). Well, now I've returned to classical, and after listening to my former favourite piece again, I've found I really enjoy it!

So for all those people who feel like you've ruined a piece by listening to it too often: there's hope! Just give it a couple years.


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## DeepR

Schubert - Impromptu Op. 142 No. 3

Is it me or is this piece quite "Chopinesque". Did Chopin like Schubert?


----------



## Razumovskymas

DeepR said:


> Schubert - Impromptu Op. 142 No. 3
> 
> Is it me or is this piece quite "Chopinesque". Did Chopin like Schubert?


No it's Chopins' complete oeuvre that's a bit "Schubertesque"


----------



## brianvds

Two recent discoveries of piano quintets:

Vaughan Williams:






Borodin:






Both simply gorgeous pieces...


----------



## laurie

brianvds said:


> Two recent discoveries of piano quintets:
> 
> Vaughan Williams:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Borodin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both simply gorgeous pieces...


I've never heard the RVW piece before, & you're right, it _is_ gorgeous!
Thank you for posting it. :tiphat:


----------



## Blancrocher

Haydn - String Quartet Op. 33, No. 5, "How Do You Do?"

Probably the most hilarious title in all of music, imo.


----------



## beetzart

Why did Schubert bottle it when he wanted to speak to Beethoven in a tavern? Why is Schubert sometimes called a very good amateur?


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Early Shostakovich IS Glazunov! <3 <3 <3

Rare early orchestral sketches while he was studying with Steinberg:


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I wonder why Mozart's 24th piano concerto is sometimes overlooked in favor of the 20th. I remember reading that as the classical style lost relevance only the 20th concerto continued to be played - this was stated as if the 24th didn't even exist. Even on TC the posters who "like his works in a minor key" often mention the 20th but not the 24th. The 20th always leads polls and its darkness is often the cited reason, again, as if the 24th doesn't even exist. 

The opening material of the 20th is brilliant but the followup always strikes me as slightly less so, still very good obviously, like the 18th and 19th, but not as transcendentally fluid as the other mature concertos. I do prefer the 20th's vicious rondo finale to the variations at the end of the 24th so maybe that's part of it.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Happy Birthday to Frederic Chopin!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Happy Birthday to Frederic Chopin!


Thanks for reminding me! I forgot to get him a present.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Listening to Melchior crush the high note here and make everybody else sound like amateurs - 



 - it occurs to me that, if a singer can adequately perform the part of Siegfried, as Wagner wrote it, then Siegfried will _sound_ more than human - which makes his death a tragedy independent of moral content, in the same sense that the destruction of a mountain by an earthquake is a tragedy. Too bad nobody alive can sing it adequately.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Listening to The Ring Without Words (Maazel with BPO) and I'm reminded of how much I love Wagner's orchestral work. Next step: try and try again to get into the operas.


----------



## hpowders

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Listening to The Ring Without Words (Maazel with BPO) and I'm reminded of how much I love Wagner's orchestral work. Next step: try and try again to get into the operas.


Listening to the Ring without words is like waking up to a day without sunshine.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> Listerning to the Ring without words is like waking up to a day without sunshine.


I'm a vampire. I like the dark.


----------



## hpowders

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I'm a vampire. I like the dark.


Okay, then.

Listening to the Ring without words is like listening to a Bach English Suite being performed on piano when you know you could have heard it on a modern reconstruction of a Bach period harpsichord.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> Okay, then.
> 
> Listening to the Ring without words is like listening to a Bach English Suite being performed on piano when you know you could have heard it on a modern reconstruction of a Bach period harpsichord.


You know, this isn't any more convincing than your sunshine analogy


----------



## hpowders

hpowders said:


> Okay, then.
> 
> Listening to the Ring without words is like listening to a Bach English Suite being performed on piano when you know you could have heard it on a modern reconstruction of a Bach period harpsichord.


An "I coulda had a V8 moment"!


----------



## hpowders

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You know, this isn't any more convincing than your sunshine analogy


I am not here to convince. I am here to bring The Truth.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> I am not here to convince. I am here to bring The Truth.


I know. It is entirely my shortcomings that prevent me from seeing The Truth.


----------



## JAS

hpowders said:


> I am not here to convince. I am here to bring The Truth.


An interest in truth is so 4 years ago or so . . . get with the times.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

JAS said:


> An interest in truth is so 4 years ago or so . . . get with the times.


Indeed. Wagner without words is an alternative truth.


----------



## hpowders

JAS said:


> An interest in truth is so 4 years ago or so . . . get with the times.


Ain't that the truth! As a card-carrying nerd, I am usually around 4 years behind the times! :lol::lol:


----------



## hpowders

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Indeed. Wagner without words is an alternative truth.


Might as well read the Classic Comics version of A Tale of Two Cities....


----------



## JAS

hpowders said:


> Ain't that the truth! As a card-carrying nerd, I am usually around 4 years behind the times! :lol::lol:


I am sure they will fix that in the soon-to-be-required citizenship renewal retraining and work camps. Perhaps we will run into each other there.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> Might as well read the Classic Comics version of A Tale of Two Cities....


So you understand archaic German then?

The CD I was referring to is Wagner's music but only the orchestral parts.


----------



## hpowders

For those of you feeling a bit jaded by the same old, same old violin concertos such as the Beethoven, Brahms, Sibelius and Mendelssohn, why don't you check out the Franz Clement and Joseph Joachim Violin Concertos played brilliantly by Rachel Barton Pine.

You may be glad you did!!


----------



## Pugg

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> So you understand archaic German then?
> 
> The CD I was referring to is Wagner's music but only the orchestral parts.


The Antal Dorati recording please!!!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Pugg said:


> The Antal Dorati recording please!!!


I'll check the Dorati recording, although it seems it isn't as readily available, at least on amazon. But it seems Szell also recorded Wagner without words, which is intriguing. I do like Maazel's recording a lot.


----------



## JAS

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I'll check the Dorati recording, although it seems it isn't as readily available, at least on amazon. But it seems Szell also recorded Wagner without words, which is intriguing. I do like Maazel's recording a lot.


It may depend on how "used" some of these copies are: https://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-Orchestral-Music/dp/B00008FJFL


----------



## Hydrarchos

The economics of recording these days are quite complicated. In short: most break even, but on a worldwide community of 2000-3000 collectors. Many labels get the recordings for free (for them, at least), so cost is limited to time, CD/download production, documentation and wages (mostly, the sound engineer and designer). No large profits being made, though.


----------



## hpowders

Hard to believe, but Robert Schumann tried to "help" Bach's Unaccompanied Violin Sonatas and Partitas by adding a piano part to "add missing textures and harmonies".

What a joke. In my opinion, Schumann should have been carted to the insane asylum the day before he attempted that.

How could a supposed musical genius not see the greatness in these works as written?


----------



## Blancrocher

I sometimes find that Georg Friedrich Haas' music puts me in a dark place.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

hpowders said:


> Hard to believe, but Robert Schumann tried to "help" Bach's Unaccompanied Violin Sonatas and Partitas by adding a piano part to "add missing textures and harmonies".
> 
> What a joke. In my opinion, Schumann should have been carted to the insane asylum the day before he attempted that.
> 
> How could a supposed musical genius not see the greatness in these works as written?


Because his was a different kind of genius: https://books.google.com/books?id=R...his heterophony was a magnificent substitute"


----------



## hpowders

Mendelssohn was one of my favorite composers until I recently read that he added a piano accompaniment to Bach's Chaconne for Unaccompanied Violin, to "fill in the harmonies". What a jerk!


----------



## DeepR

I think I may be entering a baroque phase.


----------



## hpowders

DeepR said:


> I think I may be entering a baroque phase.


Try working for Donald Trump.

He pays very well. None off his employees are baroque.


----------



## JAS

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I'll check the Dorati recording, although it seems it isn't as readily available, at least on amazon. But it seems Szell also recorded Wagner without words, which is intriguing. I do like Maazel's recording a lot.


I have to say that having listened to it just now, I find the Dorati recording to be underwhelming. The performances are not bad, but the forces seem thin, and I hear no "magic." I think the Maazel is considerably better.


----------



## Bettina

hpowders said:


> Hard to believe, but Robert Schumann tried to "help" Bach's Unaccompanied Violin Sonatas and Partitas by adding a piano part to "add missing textures and harmonies".
> 
> What a joke. In my opinion, Schumann should have been carted to the insane asylum the day before he attempted that.
> 
> How could a supposed musical genius not see the greatness in these works as written?


Your post has made me start thinking about various arrangements of Bach, and now I'm curious to know: how do you feel about Busoni's piano transcription of Bach's Chaconne? Does it annoy you as much as the Schumann and Mendelssohn arrangements? I must admit that I personally enjoy the Busoni transcription, although it certainly isn't faithful to Bach's intentions...


----------



## Totenfeier

I believe I've finally settled in my mind which side I'm on in the Middle Movements Controversy of Mahler's Sixth Symphony. I've read up on the music theory arguments (which I understand a little), and the historical sequence (which I understand better).

Yep - pretty sure I've got it right.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Your post has made me start thinking about various arrangements of Bach, and now I'm curious to know: how do you feel about Busoni's piano transcription of Bach's Chaconne? Does it annoy you as much as the Schumann and Mendelssohn arrangements? I must admit that I personally enjoy the Busoni transcription, although it certainly isn't faithful to Bach's intentions...


Yes. Bach's Chaconne is sacrosanct to me. It should have been left to stand as the glory that it is for solo violin.

I am not a "transcription" person. I believe that the original composer knew best....except for Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Your post has made me start thinking about various arrangements of Bach, and now I'm curious to know: how do you feel about Busoni's piano transcription of Bach's Chaconne? Does it annoy you as much as the Schumann and Mendelssohn arrangements? I must admit that I personally enjoy the Busoni transcription, although it certainly isn't faithful to Bach's intentions...


Yes. I am a purist...in the minority on TC...but no less happy for being so!


----------



## sprite

I had an amazing dream the other morning.. It was one of those morning dreams, where you wake up and go back to sleep. They tend to be more vivid and psychedelic. Anyway the dream was that I was listening to a recently discovered experimental Glenn Gould album in which he was sampling nature sounds over Scriabin and Bach and totally deconstructing the songs. I distinctly remember autotuned waterfall sounds and him plinking a key over and over with no sound. Pure ecstasy - I remember being so excited and so deeply disappointed when I came to and realized the album didn't exist. Best dream ever. Yep.


----------



## mathisdermaler

On terms and sound and performance quality, the Osmo Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra Beethoven symphonies are the best I've heard

From what I've heard of Karajan (Wagner operas and Eroica) he does not blow me away


----------



## hpowders

I've often seen things like this on Amazon for "Album A":

1. $6.00

2. $6.37

3. $8.73

4. $1306

I mean what dufus is going to pay $1306? Why does this kind of outrageous price discrepancy even happen?


----------



## JAS

hpowders said:


> I've often seen things like this on Amazon for "Album A":
> 
> 1. $6.00
> 
> 2. $6.37
> 
> 3. $8.73
> 
> 4. $1306
> 
> I mean what dufus is going to pay $1306? Why does this kind of outrageous price discrepancy even happen?


I have often assumed that it might be a data entry problem, with the comma often used in Euro being intended for the decimal place (so, 1,00 becomes 1,000 instead of 1.00) but I don't think that explains all of these entries. In several cases dealing with a book that was listed at these outrageous prices, it turns out that the sellers didn't even have the book. There is something very strange indeed going on here in some cases.


----------



## hpowders

JAS said:


> I have often assumed that it might be a data entry problem, with the comma often used in Euro being intended for the decimal place (so, 1,00 becomes 1,000 instead of 1.00) but I don't think that explains all of these entries. In several cases dealing with a book that was listed at these outrageous prices, it turns out that the sellers didn't even have the book. There is something very strange indeed going on here in some cases.


So if it was indeed a data entry problem, would one most likely receive a cheerful refund of about $1300 from the company in question and an apology?

I mean, the only way I could conceive of myself clicking on the $1306, would be if I had indulged in three slices of potent rum cake first.


----------



## Tchaikov6

hpowders said:


> Mendelssohn was one of my favorite composers until I recently read that he added a piano accompaniment to Bach's Chaconne for Unaccompanied Violin, to "fill in the harmonies". What a jerk!


But you can't single out Mendelssohn. Bach arranged Vivaldi. Liszt arranged everybody +1. Mahler edited Schumann. Schumann edited Bach. Besides without Mendelssohn, who knows how well-known of a composer Bach would be today?


----------



## Bettina

Sometimes I think that it's weird to "like" posts that were written last year. And then I remember that many of my favorite composers lived (and died) hundreds of years ago!  In "classical music time," a year is barely a drop in the bucket.


----------



## ido66667

It's something I discovered a long time ago, but still a fun fact.
Apparently the great lutenist Silvius Leopold Weiss got his thumb bitten by a violinist called Petit, a student of Giuseppe Tartini after a fight. This incident was reported by two people, so it probably did happen.


----------



## Neward Thelman

What was his problem? 

Here's a guy with a far above average melodic gift - something many composers would cut off their genitalia without hesitation* - which he largely wasted by hardly composing. Greig's been called a minaturist - and he was - but why not create more big works? He obviously had the gifts for it.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Listening to Gounod is like a box of chocolates - you never know which piece of "Carmen" you're going to get.


----------



## pierrot

I find the shortest solo piano pieces much more intriguing and interesting.


----------



## hpowders

I was gazing at the PBS TV schedule today and I got all excited when I saw "Great Performances, Romeo & Juliet." Then I noticed it was the Gounod opera, not the Prokofiev ballet. Downer!!!


----------



## Magnum Miserium

hpowders said:


> I was gazing at the PBS TV schedule today and I got all excited when I saw "Great Performances, Romeo & Juliet." Then I noticed it was the Gounod opera, not the Prokofiev ballet. Downer!!!


Hey, the big sword fight in the Gounod opera is really good!


----------



## Magnum Miserium

I'm inclined to say that Philip Glass often comes up with really striking hooks, but pretty much invariably bores me after half a minute or so, while Steve Reich pretty much never bores me no matter how long he goes on. Echoes of Vivaldi versus Bach? (Except of course that Vivaldi influenced Bach but Reich influenced Glass.)


----------



## Tchaikov6

Magnum Miserium said:


> Hey, the big sword fight in the Gounod opera is really good!


But not worth sitting through the rest of the two hours of nothing going on (in my opinion).

Then again, very few operas please me- only Figaro by Mozart, Fidelio, Die Meistersinger, Madame Butterfly, Carmen, Wozzeck, Eugene Onegin, and La Traviata hold my interests for their long periods of times. Tristan und Isolde? I've tried many times to sit through it but I always doze off within in an hour of the first act.

So no, opera isn't my cup of tea.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Magnum Miserium said:


> I'm inclined to say that Philip Glass often comes up with really *striking* hooks, but pretty much invariably bores me after half a minute or so, while Steve Reich pretty much never bores me no matter how long he goes on. Echoes of Vivaldi versus Bach? (Except of course that Vivaldi influenced Bach but Reich influenced Glass.)


Key word- _striking_ hooks. I can't stand Glass- I haven't tried him since my couple of weeks trying to understand Einstein on the Beach a couple of years ago. Cage is mysteriously bizarre, but I can- kind of- handle him. Same goes for any minimalist/experimental composers except Glass. Certainly striking openings and hooks, but not at all good ones.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Tchaikov6 said:


> Tristan und Isolde? I've tried many times to sit through it but I always doze off within in an hour of the first act.


Just start with the third act. That's the good one.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

- The I V vi IV progression is to the early 21st century what the diminished 7th chord was to the late 19th.

- Relatedly, Debussy's chords somehow still signify "this is urbane modern music." I guess in the 19th century it was chromaticism that did that (the difference being that in the 19th century modernity meant not urbanity but introspection).


----------



## DeepR

Sibelius. Sibelius? Sibelius!


----------



## hpowders

I cancelled my "Prime" membership of a well-known cyber-warehouse. They claimed 2 day delivery.

My latest order got to me after 4 days. $100 Bach in my pocket. Better spent on satellite independent sellers.


----------



## senza sordino

hpowders said:


> I've often seen things like this on Amazon for "Album A":
> 
> 1. $6.00
> 
> 2. $6.37
> 
> 3. $8.73
> 
> 4. $1306
> 
> I mean what dufus is going to pay $1306? Why does this kind of outrageous price discrepancy even happen?


I don't think anyone would pay $1306. I assumed this happened because prices are set by a computer program, based on supply and demand, and profit. And that demand might be current and historical, as well as the supply, historical supply and current. 
I dunno. 35 years ago I knew how computers worked and how to build and program. But it's all moved on from that time, I haven't. Now the internet is a black box to me.



hpowders said:


> I cancelled my "Prime" membership of a well-known cyber-warehouse. They claimed 2 day delivery.
> 
> My latest order got to me after 4 days. $100 Bach in my pocket. Better spent on satellite independent sellers.


Not every object for sale is eligible for prime delivery. I've had a prime membership for a year now. I find it convenient for books and school supplies are cheap. And delivered right to work. But I continue to shop at my local brick and mortar independent classical music shop.

My new composition:
How's this for an odd composition? What if I were to build an electronic circuit with a photoresistor, other gadgets and speaker. It could be set up to change pitch depending on how dark, shady or bright it is. You could set it outside on a partly cloudy day as the sun goes behind clouds and comes out again. Eight hours of variable pitches in need time with the changing atmosphere.


----------



## hpowders

senza sordino said:


> I don't think anyone would pay $1306. I assumed this happened because prices are set by a computer program, based on supply and demand, and profit. And that demand might be current and historical, as well as the supply, historical supply and current.
> I dunno. 35 years ago I knew how computers worked and how to build and program. But it's all moved on from that time, I haven't. Now the internet is a black box to me.
> 
> Not every object for sale is eligible for prime delivery. I've had a prime membership for a year now. I find it convenient for books and school supplies are cheap. And delivered right to work. But I continue to shop at my local brick and mortar independent classical music shop.
> 
> My new composition:
> How's this for an odd composition? What if I were to build an electronic circuit with a photoresistor, other gadgets and speaker. It could be set up to change pitch depending on how dark, shady or bright it is. You could set it outside on a partly cloudy day as the sun goes behind clouds and comes out again. Eight hours of variable pitches in need time with the changing atmosphere.


Prime is good if you shop a lot. I find it was motivating me to buy more CDs than I needed. Then when the promised two day delivery became four, I quit it. I had 30 days to quit and I did so on day 27. The website was of no help in attempting to cancel. I had to dig around until I FINALLY found a customer service phone number. Then it was easy to cancel.


----------



## pierrot

There is no way I can finish the Organon completely sane.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

- Debussy is simultaneously France's Bach (the founder who makes his greatest predecessors - F. Couperin, Rameau, Berlioz; Schütz, Froberger, Buxtehude - into mere premonitions) and France's Schumann (the country's first more-or-less-purely-national great composer).

- Imagine hating Europe so much that you think Steve Reich's kitsch masterpiece is a more "adequate" response to the Holocaust than Nono's "Ricorda."


----------



## Bettina

I've been following the thread "The Classical Music Project" with great interest, although I haven't been actively participating in it: http://www.talkclassical.com/46890-classical-music-project-2701-a-71.html

I'm surprised (and a bit confused) about the low ranking of some canonical pieces...Beethoven's Violin Sonata #8 and Dvorak's Symphonic Variations appear to be ranked somewhere around #3,000 in this project.  But I suppose that's a positive sign of the diversity on TC...it shows that TC members have many interests that lie outside the standard classical canon. (I'm posting this observation here rather than in the project thread itself, because I don't want to clutter up the voting process with my random musings. :lol


----------



## Minor Sixthist

Bizet died precisely three months after the premiere of Carmen, when the opera was in full swinging controversy and outrage.
He died during a state of near misery that wasn't even CAUSED by that - depression over his strained marriage and plagued by a worsening throat condition.
It really makes me bitterly sad he died in the midst of total disgust for his opera, one which is so adored today, and it's weird because I'm normally a cynical realist but I hope from the bottom of mon coeur that he's up there watching, at ease with his legacy.
milles mercis George Bizet


----------



## Totenfeier

Minor Sixthist said:


> Bizet died precisely three months after the premiere of Carmen, when the opera was in full swinging controversy and outrage.
> He died during a state of near misery that wasn't even CAUSED by that - depression over his strained marriage and plagued by a worsening throat condition.
> It really makes me bitterly sad he died in the midst of total disgust for his opera, one which is so adored today, and it's weird because I'm normally a cynical realist but I hope from the bottom of mon coeur that he's up there watching, at ease with his legacy.
> milles mercis George Bizet


Switch out Bizet for Mahler, make the other few necessary changes, and you, Minor Sixthist, have written the post I would like to write for him. Mahler had been effectively booted out of the musical world in both Vienna and New York, he knew that his marriage was dead, and he himself was dying of an infection. He knew, however, that his time would come, and whenever I debate the idea of an afterlife with myself, I too hope there is one for his sake, and that he is happy knowing that he is now universally recognized as one of the greatest composers of all time.

Great username, and welcome to Talk Classical!


----------



## Tchaikov6

Bettina said:


> I've been following the thread "The Classical Music Project" with great interest, although I haven't been actively participating in it: http://www.talkclassical.com/46890-classical-music-project-2701-a-71.html
> 
> I'm surprised (and a bit confused) about the low ranking of some canonical pieces...Beethoven's Violin Sonata #8 and Dvorak's Symphonic Variations appear to be ranked somewhere around #3,000 in this project.  But I suppose that's a positive sign of the diversity on TC...it shows that TC members have many interests that lie outside the standard classical canon. (I'm posting this observation here rather than in the project thread itself, because I don't want to clutter up the voting process with my random musings. :lol


I was also surprised by a couple more things:

Brahms, Clarinet Quintet- high ranking.

Saint-Saens Introduction and Rondo Cappriccioso hasn't made it on the list yet.

John Cage, 4'33- Ranked 2,145- above pieces like Tchaikovsky Polish Symphony, Mozart Paris Symphony, Beethoven Piano Sonata No. 18, and others. I was kind of shocked at that...


----------



## Minor Sixthist

Totenfeier said:


> Switch out Bizet for Mahler, make the other few necessary changes, and you, Minor Sixthist, have written the post I would like to write for him. Mahler had been effectively booted out of the musical world in both Vienna and New York, he knew that his marriage was dead, and he himself was dying of an infection. He knew, however, that his time would come, and whenever I debate the idea of an afterlife with myself, I too hope there is one for his sake, and that he is happy knowing that he is now universally recognized as one of the greatest composers of all time.
> 
> Great username, and welcome to Talk Classical!


This post made my day, thank you for the kind words! I was reading about Mahler as well and I find it sad and intriguing that the marital strain with Alma was likely caused by his suppressing her desire to be a composer. I wonder if things would've been the same if he hadn't, because as we know she had other men in her marriage, and married two men after Mahler's death in close succession. When you hear her husband's farewell to the world in the ninth symphony, it's hard to describe, but it's like he's singing it through all the instruments, through the stage, wherever the sound touches.


----------



## hpowders

I listened to Tchaikovsky's String Quartets 1 & 2 today and was disappointed in the seemingly low level of inspiration. Not among this Russian Master's greatest works.

In comparison, I also listened to Taneyev's String Quintet No. 2, and was blown away by the craftmanship and how Taneyev actually beat Tchaikovsky at his own game, melody-wise. A superb work!


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

I've been exploring prog-rock subgenres and industrial music for about a month now and I'm not sure how to feel. The more I fall in love with it the sadder I feel for people who don't listen to much beyond classical, but on the other hand my favorite part of marathoning non-classical is returning to classical with renewed enthusiasm, at which point I sort of get why some prefer to give it the exclusive attention that, for me, diminishes my appreciation of it. 

The best salespitch I could probably give for a classical sabbatical would be noting the increased interest it nets me in composers I've struggled with. I don't usually get along with Bruckner, but he was more than welcome after a Saturday wasted on three progmetal albums that ended up having one good song each (damn Amazon ratings).


----------



## Magnum Miserium

North German: Handel, Bach, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms

South German: Haydn, Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler, R Strauss, Schönberg, Webern, Berg

Rhineland: Beethoven, Stockhausen

-----

North France: F Couperin, Rameau, Gounod, Debussy, Poulenc, Radigue

Provence: Berlioz, Messiaen, Boulez

Franche-Comté: Grisey

Aquitaine: Fauré, Ravel

-----

Back East: Ives, Gershwin, Copland, Glass

California (Bay Area): Cowell, Partch, Riley, Reich

Mormon country: Young


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

senza sordino said:


> I don't think anyone would pay $1306. I assumed this happened because prices are set by a computer program, based on supply and demand, and profit. And that demand might be current and historical, as well as the supply, historical supply and current.
> I dunno. 35 years ago I knew how computers worked and how to build and program. But it's all moved on from that time, I haven't. Now the internet is a black box to me.
> 
> Not every object for sale is eligible for prime delivery. I've had a prime membership for a year now. I find it convenient for books and school supplies are cheap. And delivered right to work. But I continue to shop at my local brick and mortar independent classical music shop.
> 
> My new composition:
> How's this for an odd composition? What if I were to build an electronic circuit with a photoresistor, other gadgets and speaker. It could be set up to change pitch depending on how dark, shady or bright it is. You could set it outside on a partly cloudy day as the sun goes behind clouds and comes out again. Eight hours of variable pitches in need time with the changing atmosphere.


Cage would be proud of you, as long as the electronics kept working the composition would go on forever


----------



## Bettina

TC has so many interesting threads on lesser-known composers - Portamento's Toch thread; the poll on Vanhal, Dittersdorf and Hoffmeister; another similar poll on Salieri and Dittersdorf...I've never heard much music by these composers, and I keep on vowing to myself that I'll set aside some time to explore this stuff. But what am I doing right now? Listening to Beethoven's Kreutzer Sonata for what must be the billionth time!:lol:


----------



## pierrot

A very badly recorded live album is sometimes so nice to listen to. Bonus points if it's in mono sound.


----------



## DeepR

There's something special about old piano recordings. No too old, not too much hiss, but say 50s, 60s, 70s old. Something about the sound evokes a special sense of nostalgia. I sometimes prefer this sound to the crisp hi fi sound of today.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

I used to think Kyle Gann was silly for getting his briefs in a twist because too many people think Steve Reich and Philip Glass invented minimalism. The I started posting here.


----------



## Totenfeier

Listening to some of his Cello Concertos has revived my faith in Vivaldi.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Totenfeier said:


> Listening to some of his Cello Concertos has revived my faith in Vivaldi.


Which ones, and whose performance?


----------



## Totenfeier

Tchaikov6 said:


> Which ones, and whose performance?


F Major, RV 411 & 412
A Minor, RV 418
B Minor, RV 424
G Major, RV 413
C Minor "Alla Rustica," RV 401

Heinrich Schiff; Ian Watson
Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields
Iona Brown (Philips)

It's just one I picked up in a secondhand store - the kind in which you'd buy a raspberry beret - but I decided to give it a listen again after several years. It had gotten better. Imagine!


----------



## Bettina

Brahms adored Bach's Chaconne in D minor; he famously wrote, "If I had composed Bach's Chaconne - been able to conceive of it - I know for certain that the excitement would have driven me mad." But I think Brahms was wrong about how he would have reacted if he had actually written the Chaconne himself. Considering how absurdly self-critical he was, he would probably have been dissatisfied with it. :lol:


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Brahms adored Bach's Chaconne in D minor; he famously wrote, "If I had composed Bach's Chaconne - been able to conceive of it - I know for certain that the excitement would have driven me mad." But I think Brahms was wrong about how he would have reacted if he had actually written the Chaconne himself. Considering how absurdly self-critical he was, he would probably have been dissatisfied with it. :lol:


I wonder how many masterpieces the perfectionist Brahms got rid of by following the "Reger rule"?


----------



## Tchaikov6

I was just thinking... if something like Bach's Mass in B Minor or Mozart's Jupiter Symphony had been written today by a contemporary composer, would it still be considered a "masterpiece?" Or would it be discarded as "music of the past," "unoriginal," and other negative statements?


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Tchaikov6 said:


> I was just thinking... if something like Bach's Mass in B Minor or Mozart's Jupiter Symphony had been written today by a contemporary composer, would it still be considered a "masterpiece?"


Yes, but the question is academic, because nobody ever really knows how to write in something like the past.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Magnum Miserium said:


> Yes, but the question is academic, because nobody ever really knows how to write in something like the past.


Not necessarily true... there must be someone, or there will hopefully be someone, who will write with the skills of Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Tchaikov6 said:


> Not necessarily true... there must be someone, or there will hopefully be someone, who will write with the skills of Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart.


You didn't say "with the skills," you said "like." Somebody writing today with the skills of Bachmozartbeethoven wouldn't sound like any of them


----------



## Tchaikov6

Magnum Miserium said:


> You didn't say "with the skills," you said "like." Somebody writing today with the skills of Bachmozartbeethoven wouldn't sound like any of them


Okay, I'll rephrase that- there could very well be someone int he world who could write like any of these masters.


----------



## hpowders

Is there any better music to have playing in a tavern, when imbibing a few beers with friends, than the Bach Brandenburg Concertos?

Those concertos have "BEER" written all over them. So joyful and extroverted.

Also, the only set of pieces by Bach where every piece happens to be in a major key.


----------



## pierrot

You know a piece or a recording is good when they change the way you listen to music after them.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Stravinsky, near the beginning of the "Symphony of Psalms": 




Steve Reich, "Piano Phase":


----------



## Rach Man

Do you think that Mozart is angry that they named his 21st piano concerto after a 20th century movie?


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Tchaikov6 said:


> Okay, I'll rephrase that- there could very well be someone int he world who could write like any of these masters.


Probably the closest we've ever come to somebody writing a lot of great music that sounds like the past is Stravinsky's Neoclassical period, but that seems destined to be eternally underrated.


----------



## NishmatHaChalil

Magnum Miserium said:


> Stravinsky, near the beginning of the "Symphony of Psalms":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Reich, "Piano Phase":


Wow! Great find  I never noticed that.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Probably the closest we've ever come to somebody writing a lot of great music that sounds like the past is Stravinsky's Neoclassical period, but that seems destined to be eternally underrated.


I admit that has been the case for me as well. I love this period of his career, but I have long neglected its influence over other composers. I prefer Schönberg's expressionist phase to it, but, while I always tended to prefer in a personal level Stravinsky's Neoclassical works to his Twelve-tone compositions (which I like as well), I was also used to hold their best examples, like Moses und Aaron, in higher esteem in terms of impact and innovation. My perception of MuA, to me a sad a beautiful drama, tends also to be that it was an adequate development, even if perhaps weaker than than the best of his free atonal efforts. Its influence over serialism is quite clear, and the prejudgment of later Stravinsky as reactionary and generally unrepresentative was convenient, even if biased and possibly false. In this sense, I tended to interpret my preference for The Rake's Progress over it merely as representative of my personal inclinations, but my views are starting to change. That article you sent me, which mentioned Bartók's reactions to the period, led me to the conclusion that I previously underrated its merits and the extent of its impact. Thank you for the recommendation! I'm probably not going to be able to relisten to later works for now, but I'm sure that, once I have the time, I'm probably going to be able to find more of its influence in other pieces.

If others are also interested, here is the article: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/arts/bartok-and-stravinsky-odd-couple-reunited.html


----------



## Magnum Miserium

NishmatHaChalil said:


> Wow! Great find  I never noticed that.


Me neither! It just jumped out at me the other day.


----------



## Bettina

Does anybody write theme-and-variations pieces nowadays? The theme-and-variations genre was HUGE in the 18th and 19th centuries, and composers continued to use it throughout much of the 20th century...but I can't think of a single 21st-century work in this genre.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Does anybody write theme-and-variations pieces nowadays? The theme-and-variations genre was HUGE in the 18th and 19th centuries, and composers continued to use it throughout much of the 20th century...but I can't think of a single 21st-century work in this genre.


The second movement of the Christopher Rouse Symphony No. 3 (2011), has a 20 minute theme with five variations.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Bettina said:


> Does anybody write theme-and-variations pieces nowadays? The theme-and-variations genre was HUGE in the 18th and 19th centuries, and composers continued to use it throughout much of the 20th century...but I can't think of a single 21st-century work in this genre.


They're not QUITE 21st century, but two pieces from the last two decades from the 20th, the latter by a still-living-&-working composer:

Elodie Lauten, "Variations on the Orange Cycle" 




Kyle Gann - I'ioti variations http://www.kylegann.com/I'itoiVariations.html

And here are some edifying notes by Gann on the Lauten piece (lower half of the page): http://www.kylegann.com/Lauten-Postminimalist.html


----------



## Bettina

Thanks, hpowders and Magnum Miserium! I'll definitely check those pieces out - I look forward to hearing how contemporary composers approach this genre.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Is it only my perception, or are there more Mahler threads brought up on the forum these days than usual?


----------



## Totenfeier

Nope; not just you. I've noticed it as well, and I'm only responsible for a couple of them, but good on me, anyway...and while I'm at it, since there have been more than a few Bruckner threads as well - anybody else notice how very, _very_ Brucknerian the final movement of Mahler's Ninth is?


----------



## Tchaikov6

I've noticed several similarities between some parts in the Beethoven Sonatas. For instance- in the Farewell Sonata, at around 2:00 there is a passage almost the exact same as parts in Beethoven's Hammerklavier...

So... a coincidence? Or was Beethoven pulling a "Mahler" trick, using musical quotes to explain the meaning of the music.


----------



## BlackDahlia

About thrift store classical records: Anyone have any?

I often dig through bins of gritty, moldy records at the local thrift shops and see a lot of classical music in them. They are, consistently, the best-quality records of the lot.

Two purchases of note are the 1967 2-record set Rubinstein - Chopin: The Nocturnes (almost perfect, and ultra quiet vinyl)...

...and then this that I found today: the Verdi opera Luisa Miller as performed by Mario Rossi and the RAI Chorus and Orchestra (Italy, 1951). All three records in the set were scattered throughout the bins, as was the box. When I got all the parts together, I still wasn't sure how many records were supposed to be in the set, but as they looked in immaculate condition, and being an Italian release (not the US version) I had to have it. Having never heard of this opera, I didn't even know if I would like it.


----------



## brianvds

Just stumbled on one Robert Valentine (1671-1747) on YouTube. Never heard of him before, but his music is quite delightful:


----------



## Blancrocher

So you can download free software for mac and pc that will allow you to increase your system's volume. Very helpful for magnifying hard-to-hear clips on Youtube etc.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Tchaikov6 said:


> I've noticed several similarities between some parts in the Beethoven Sonatas. For instance- in the Farewell Sonata, at around 2:00 there is a passage almost the exact same as parts in Beethoven's Hammerklavier...
> 
> So... a coincidence? Or was Beethoven pulling a "Mahler" trick, using musical quotes to explain the meaning of the music.


No thoughts on this?


----------



## Totenfeier

Random thought; I think that Maurice Abravanel's Mahler 4 with the Utah Symphony is wonderful, and I don't care what anybody thinks (I'm looking at you, Tony Duggan!).

Kubelik's is better, though.


----------



## TxllxT

............................................................


----------



## Totenfeier

Listening right this second to the Ravel F major String Quartet, and am in the process known as being "blown away." I think I may need to listen to string quartets exclusively for the next 5 years.


----------



## Razumovskymas

Totenfeier said:


> Listening right this second to the Ravel F major String Quartet, and am in the process known as being "blown away." I think I may need to listen to string quartets exclusively for the next 5 years.


Did you include Beethovens' string quartets in those 5 years?


----------



## Jacred

Tchaikov6 said:


> Tchaikov6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed several similarities between some parts in the Beethoven Sonatas. For instance- in the Farewell Sonata, at around 2:00 there is a passage almost the exact same as parts in Beethoven's Hammerklavier...
> 
> So... a coincidence? Or was Beethoven pulling a "Mahler" trick, using musical quotes to explain the meaning of the music.
> 
> 
> 
> No thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

When I listened to the first movement of his third piano trio, Op. 1 No. 3, I caught a whiff of the Tempest sonata, 3rd movement.


----------



## Bettina

Speaking of composers "plagiarizing" from themselves, I've just come across an instance where Mozart does this! Listen to the secondary theme in his Quartet in G Minor, K 478. It starts at 22:23 in this video: 




He then used this exact same theme as the basis of his Rondo in D Major, K. 485:


----------



## DeepR

Marc-André Hamelin is just ridiculously good.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Speaking of composers "plagiarizing" from themselves, I've just come across an instance where Mozart does this! Listen to the secondary theme in his Quartet in G Minor, K 478. It starts at 22:23 in this video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He then used this exact same theme as the basis of his Rondo in D Major, K. 485:


You are correct!!! I will never listen to Mozart ever again!!!! In Tampa, that's a crime!!! :lol::lol:


----------



## Bettina

A number of fast pieces have slow introductions...but I can't think of any slow pieces with fast introductions. Is this just not a thing?? Why not?


----------



## hpowders

It goes against the natural order. It's illogical.


----------



## Totenfeier

Razumovskymas said:


> Did you include Beethovens' string quartets in those 5 years?


I've already started on the Late Quartets.


----------



## Jacred

Bettina said:


> A number of fast pieces have slow introductions...but I can't think of any slow pieces with fast introductions. Is this just not a thing?? Why not?


Because once people are jumpy, they can't calm down until you tell them to--that is, pause and start a new movement. Even a fast movement leading into a significantly slower one without pause is uncommon.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

If Beethoven hadn't written the late quartets, we'd think of his early & middle quartets like we think of his piano concertos - great, obviously, but not quite his most natural idiom, when compared to the masters of the forms (Mozart in the case of the piano concerto, Haydn in the case of the string quartet).


----------



## Magnum Miserium

Bettina said:


> A number of fast pieces have slow introductions...but I can't think of any slow pieces with fast introductions. Is this just not a thing?? Why not?


Good point. Hmm... Does the finale of Haydn's "Farewell" symphony count?


----------



## Rach Man

I am planning on taking my daughter to an upcoming symphony. The hall holds about 2500 seats and I have a possibility to get tickets in the 7th row middle. Would these be good seats or is this too close to get great sound? I have never sat this close at a symphonic concert.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Janspe

Rach Man said:


> I am planning on taking my daughter to an upcoming symphony. The hall holds about 2500 seats and I have a possibility to get tickets in the 7th row middle. Would these be good seats or is this too close to get great sound? I have never sat this close at a symphonic concert.
> 
> Thanks for any help.


Sitting too close to the orchestra might give an illusion of imbalance (you might hear the strings very prominently) but I'd say that the 7th row should to be OK! Acoustics are different in every hall, though, so keep that in mind.

If there's a concerto in the program, it might be nice to sit pretty close to the stage. Nothing is more annoying than seeing a world-class instrumentalist and not being able to hear their playing properly due to far-away seats.


----------



## brianvds

On another board, someone posted this:






Never heard of her before, and I see on her Wikipedia page that she lived well before Guido of Arezzo, so I am not too clear on how she wrote down her music or how it is reconstructed. But it's very nice on the ear.


----------



## Magnum Miserium

I haven't been able to take Bartok's "Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta" entirely seriously since I noticed that the most prominent motif in the opening movement sounds like the "Jeopardy" theme


----------



## Chronochromie

I think that if a couple of Monteverdi's lost operas were found, recorded and about as great as the 3 we have he could become my favorite composer. I would love to hear the rest of _L'Arianna_, or especially _Le Nozze d'Enea con Lavinia_ which would complete the "late Venetian opera trilogy" with _Ulisse_ and _Poppea_.


----------



## Clairvoyance Enough

The most annoying thing to me about all of this coughing on the recording I'm listening to right now is that 99 percent of the worthless pricks who did it didn't do it because they actually needed to. They felt awkward sitting in an enclosed space with strangers, got the go-ahead from the prime-prick who coughed first (pretended to), and then exhibited about as much self-control as a delinquent gang of tornadoes vandalizing a museum. Who needs 4'33 when you can get just as much bullsh-t, fake *** coughing bundled with your favorite version of Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata? Who could possibly bear the awkwardness of all those eighth rests, am I right?

Never heard the 2nd movement before - really liked it, to end on a positive.


----------



## Jacred

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> The most annoying thing to me about all of this coughing on the recording I'm listening to right now is that 99 percent of the worthless pricks who did it didn't do it because they actually needed to. They felt awkward sitting in an enclosed space with strangers, got the go-ahead from the prime-prick who coughed first (pretended to), and then exhibited about as much self-control as a delinquent gang of tornadoes vandalizing a museum. Who needs 4'33 when you can get just as much bullsh-t, fake *** coughing bundled with your favorite version of Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata? Who could possibly bear the awkwardness of all those eighth rests, am I right?
> 
> Never heard the 2nd movement before - really liked it, to end on a positive.


I don't trust live performance recordings on YouTube for this reason. My priorities are: actual live performances, CD or other standard recordings, then everything else on the Internet.

All the movements in Rach 2 are good.


----------



## Tristan

Boy, Shostakovich sure loved the snare drum 

That's not a complaint, but listening to a lot of his music lately, I've noticed that he really used it a lot!


----------



## apricissimus

Tristan said:


> Boy, Shostakovich sure loved the snare drum
> 
> That's not a complaint, but listening to a lot of his music lately, I've noticed that he really used it a lot!


Also a lot of piccolos and tubas. Runs the gamut, I guess.


----------



## hpowders

In the US, the Eastern time zone is definitely superior to the Western time zone.

How can anyone be three hours behind me? You call that living?

Glad to be back "Eastern" again.


----------



## Bettina

hpowders said:


> In the US, the Eastern time zone is definitely superior to the Western time zone.
> 
> How can anyone be three hours behind me? You call that living?
> 
> Glad to be back "Eastern" again.


I love being three hours behind the Eastern time zone! It makes my mornings very exciting. By the time that I wake up each morning, there's already a huge amount of daily news that I can read online. Sometimes, before I've even had my morning coffee, several constitutional principles have already been broken.* :lol:

*I hope this sentence doesn't violate the TC rule against political commentary.


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> I love being three hours behind the Eastern time zone! It makes my mornings very exciting. By the time that I wake up each morning, there's already a huge amount of daily news that I can read online. Sometimes, before I've even had my morning coffee, several constitutional principles have already been broken.* :lol:
> 
> *I hope this sentence doesn't violate the TC rule against political commentary.


What took you so long??? :lol::lol:

Well anyhow, I don''t like to be kept waiting.


----------



## JAS

hpowders said:


> In the US, the Eastern time zone is definitely superior to the Western time zone.
> 
> How can anyone be three hours behind me? You call that living?
> 
> Glad to be back "Eastern" again.


I have spent my entire life being seven years "behind" my oldest brother, and I can say with confidence that it has spared me a host of costly mistakes. It is good to learn from one's own errors, but just as useful and far less painful to learn from the mistakes of others.


----------



## JAS

brianvds said:


> Never heard of her [Kassia] before, and I see on her Wikipedia page that she lived well before Guido of Arezzo, so I am not too clear on how she wrote down her music or how it is reconstructed. But it's very nice on the ear.


On the Wikipedia page for Guido of Arezzo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_of_Arezzo) it says that his form of notation replaced neumatic notation, which it describes on another page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neume

I suspect for Kassia's manuscripts, there is a good deal of interpretation required, so one wonders how accurately we hear what she intended. (I just bought that CD by the way, and am looking forward to giving it a spin, probably tomorrow.)


----------



## hpowders

JAS said:


> I have spent my entire life being seven years "behind" my oldest brother, and I can say with confidence that it has spared me a host of costly mistakes. It is good to learn from one's own errors, but just as useful and far less painful to learn from the mistakes of others.


Tell it to my stomach. It was saying "dinner" when the populace was clamoring for brunch.


----------



## 20centrfuge

Rach Man said:


> I am planning on taking my daughter to an upcoming symphony. The hall holds about 2500 seats and I have a possibility to get tickets in the 7th row middle. Would these be good seats or is this too close to get great sound? I have never sat this close at a symphonic concert.
> 
> Thanks for any help.


I would go a bit further back if it is sound you are after. Another consideration is that, depending on her age, she might like to sit somewhere where she can see the actual musicians the best.


----------



## Rach Man

20centrfuge said:


> I would go a bit further back if it is sound you are after. Another consideration is that, depending on her age, she might like to sit somewhere where she can see the actual musicians the best.


I decided to sit where I usually sit and that is in the balcony. We had excellent seats in the balcony and the concert was spectacular (Mahler #2). The seats and the view were really good. In Heinz Hall, in Pittsburgh, the balcony extends forward more than some venues. So it makes the seating up there to be prime.

On an interesting note, you brought up to allow my daughter a good view to see. I agree that this is a good idea. But my daughter likes to just take in the music and many times she does this by closing her eyes so that she can concentrate totally on the sound. Whereas, I have to be able to see the orchestra performing to get the full experience for me. But to each their own.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Weston

Tutus are profoundly silly looking to me. I was going to ask when and above all why anyone thought such a thing a good idea, but Wikipedia is my friend as they say and now I understand the history somewhat.

I still think they look silly.


----------



## Chris

Somebody has just posted this John Cage work on one of the Facebook groups. It's like a Monty Python sketch, only funnier. It has not one, but two quotations from 4'33".


----------



## EdwardBast

Weston said:


> Tutus are profoundly silly looking to me. I was going to ask when and above all why anyone thought such a thing a good idea, but Wikipedia is my friend as they say and now I understand the history somewhat.
> 
> I still think they look silly.


Well, why don't you try cargo shorts or a kilt then?


----------



## Woodduck

Weston said:


> Tutus are profoundly silly looking to me. I was going to ask when and above all why anyone thought such a thing a good idea, but Wikipedia is my friend as they say and now I understand the history somewhat.
> 
> I still think they look silly.


Have you been careful to distinguish between the Romantic tutu, the Classic tutu, the inverted bell tutu, the pancake tutu, the platter tutu, and the American tutu?


----------



## eugeneonagain

And of course the Archbishop Desmond Tutu.


----------



## DeepR

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> The most annoying thing to me about all of this coughing on the recording I'm listening to right now is that 99 percent of the worthless pricks who did it didn't do it because they actually needed to. They felt awkward sitting in an enclosed space with strangers, got the go-ahead from the prime-prick who coughed first (pretended to), and then exhibited about as much self-control as a delinquent gang of tornadoes vandalizing a museum. Who needs 4'33 when you can get just as much bullsh-t, fake *** coughing bundled with your favorite version of Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata? Who could possibly bear the awkwardness of all those eighth rests, am I right?
> 
> Never heard the 2nd movement before - really liked it, to end on a positive.


You should check out older (bootleg) recordings of Richter's recitals from the 50s and 60s. Some of them contain absolutely magical perfomances from possibly the greatest pianist ever at the peak of his abilities.... but then there's the coughing, oh, the coughing....


----------



## hpowders

I asked for the removal of the "like" system, yet I notice it is still being employed. :scold::scold:


----------



## hpowders

I'm used to instant gratification.


----------



## hpowders

Speaking of coughing at concerts, I wonder, do TC concert goers encounter folks producing mostly dry, hacking coughs or those with productive coughs accompanied by sputum?


----------



## apricissimus

The amount of itchiness and sour temper induced in some by Cage's 4'33'' is waaay out of proportion with its actual importance as a piece. (I'm looking at some of you TC forum members . . .)


----------



## Granate

It's funny that Philips and Decca are way more confused about recording dates of Karl Böhm's Wagner ring than many experienced TC users. 1966, 1967, only 1967, and 1971 too. Fake packaging?


----------



## Pugg

Granate said:


> It's funny that Philips and Decca are way more confused about recording dates of Karl Böhm's Wagner ring than many experienced TC users. 1966, 1967, only 1967, and 1971 too. Fake packaging?


Have you never heard about the Four last songs sung by Norman?
The orchestra is from Leipzig.......and for years nobody saw the fault on the backside saying Leizpig.


----------



## Scopitone

Itzhak Perlman, "I Know I Played Every Note"

I watched this 1978 documentary last night before bed. Absolutely delightful. Perlman is a total goob, in a loveable way (and the youtube comments are right - from the correct angle, he does look like Schubert). I am betraying massive ignorance here, but I did not know about his handicap from polio.

The film is filled with gorgeous music, natch. And there's a neat bit at the end where he's teaching a master class. One of the teen students is Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg. I am pretty sure I saw her perform live in Dallas sometime in the 90's. If she's the one I remember, she was very animated and lots of fun to watch.


----------



## bharbeke

I posted this in the Community forum's "What book are you reading?" thread, but it may be of more general interest, too. There is a great book by Robert A. Cutietta called Who Knew? Answers to Questions About Classical Music You Never Thought to Ask.

It covers topics ranging from how orchestra members get paid to the whats and hows of twelve-tone music. Even as a regular forum reader, I am learning so much from this book (7/8 done right now).


----------



## Tchaikov6

Very random thought:

I just found out that Bizet and Strauss II had the same birth and death dates. 

( 10/25/1825 - 6/03/1899 )	STRAUSS, Johann II
( 10/25/1838 - 6/03/1875 )	BIZET, Georges Alexandre-Cesar-Leopold

I don't know why I find that so interesting, but I do...


----------



## bharbeke

It's kind of like John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both dying on the same 4th of July.


----------



## Janspe

I now have no less than 20 concert tickets for this autumn! A bit excessive, maybe, but I'm sure I'll enjoy every single one immensely. There's music ranging from Mozart to contemporary music - and everything in between. So excited!


----------



## Tchaikov6

Now, I promise you, this is not my channel that I'm trying to promote, but I was just so impressed with it that I had to post it. Tristan und Isolde- with a scrolling along score!






I just discovered it, and it's helped me discover things about this piece that I've never even heard before. One of the most impressive things I've seen on Youtube.


----------



## Granate

I had this thought like two years ago, but last Saturday I remembered it (and then took 3 days to find this thread).

Mahler and Bruckner symphonies are like New Hollywood and Independent European films respectively. Or else, if Beethoven was pop music, Anton Bruckner would be Alternative pop. There is such an uneasy feeling in both that I can only compare to the look & feel of independent films. While Bruckner and European films try very hard to be introspective, while taking a lot of care about the form, Mahler and New Hollywood seem to go around the concepts of manhood, with philosophcal themes, constant changes of humour, faux turning points or spinning in circles...


----------



## Gordontrek

I have recently come to the judgment that Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun is the most beautiful piece of music ever written.


----------



## tdc

I just heard a strange piece of music on the radio by Dittersdorf (something to do with Jason and the Argonauts) it sounded like it had harpsichord and piano in the same piece.


----------



## jenspen

bharbeke said:


> It's kind of like John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both dying on the same 4th of July.


And another US President being born on the same day as Charles Darwin...


----------



## tdc

There are many things to admire about Sibelius music - such as his orchestration, tonal color and unique sound. But in some of his works (listen to Symphony 5 for example) does he not rely a little too much on using a similar effect with the timpani again and again and again and again...

I first noticed this when I saw a live performance of his symphony 2 and now it sticks out to me like a sore thumb. I still think he is a very good composer, but weak in his use of percussion.


----------



## CypressWillow

Scopitone said:


> Itzhak Perlman, "I Know I Played Every Note"
> 
> I watched this 1978 documentary last night before bed. Absolutely delightful. Perlman is a total goob, in a loveable way (and the youtube comments are right - from the correct angle, he does look like Schubert). I am betraying massive ignorance here, but I did not know about his handicap from polio.
> 
> The film is filled with gorgeous music, natch. And there's a neat bit at the end where he's teaching a master class. One of the teen students is Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg. I am pretty sure I saw her perform live in Dallas sometime in the 90's. If she's the one I remember, she was very animated and lots of fun to watch.


What a wonderful film about this great master. Thanks for sharing this.


----------



## Totenfeier

Gordontrek said:


> I have recently come to the judgment that Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun is the most beautiful piece of music ever written.


Certainly in my mind the most overtly erotic. "Bolero?" Not even anywhere near close.


----------



## hpowders

Just received the complete Mozart Piano Sonatas as performerd by Klára Würtz.

Mozart's first sonatas were composed when he was 19, already a full-fledged musical genius, so even the earliest sonatas are quite delightful and clever.

All was progressing swimmingly, until I encountered Mozart's first great masterpiece in the form, the A minor Sonata KV 310.

Ms. Wurtz' performance was fine, but much too "soft-sounding", and the fault lay not in the interpretation, but in her choice of instrument. I immediately played Alexï Lubimov's version performed on a reconstructed fortepiano of a model from Mozart's time and it was revelatory.
The trills; the drama; the intensity, were all there in spades. In addition, the many runs that Mozart so delighted in composing, sound so much quirkier on fortepiano, which I'm sure delighted the audiences of his time.

The argument is not which instrument is superior. Mozart wrote for the fortepiano and it shows.

If Mozart had a Steinway Concert Grand, I believe his sonatas would have been composed differently from the ones he wrote, but because, of course, this was impossible, as far as I'm concerned, a fine fortepiano performance of a Mozart Keyboard Sonata is the best way to fully appreciate Mozart's genius in the form.


----------



## musicrom

Does anyone have a list of maybe 50 or 100 of the most important living composers today, by any chance? I know Wikipedia has a list of 21st-century composers, but it's longer than I need, and includes film composers, which I'm not very interested in.


----------



## haziz

Discovering Kalinnikov through a post on this forum a couple of years ago! I somehow missed his existence for many years. When I first saw the name, my initial reaction, was oh no, not another dour, tuneless, 20th century composer! Fortunately I checked him out and discovered how wrong I was about both the time period and the style of music. His 2 symphonies are worthy of Tchaikovsky and somewhat reminiscent and are now two of my favorite pieces. Unfortunately, yet another early and tragic death in a very talented composer.


----------



## Granate

Why does every Bruckner No.4 that is not conducted by Sergiu Celibidache sound too fast?


----------



## hpowders

Too bad they closed down the thread, Stupid Thread Ideas.

Now I have nowhere else to post stuff like:

"Your Favorite Living Robo-Conductors."

Too bad. I have so many more.....


----------



## Kivimees

hpowders said:


> Too bad they closed down the thread, Stupid Thread Ideas.


Now I recognize that nagging emptiness since my return to TC...


----------



## hpowders

Kivimees said:


> Now I recognize that nagging emptiness since my return to TC...


I used to label marriage as that "nagging emptiness", but I've learned to adjust....like moving from tonal music to atonal....


----------



## Chris

I was in a CD shop in Birkenhead this afternoon. I noticed Myleene Klass had been included in the Classical Music section. I suppose Klass sounds like Classical.


----------



## DeepR

I'm glad with the seperate forum for polls and games. Makes this place a lote more tidy.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Chris said:


> View attachment 97661
> 
> 
> I was in a CD shop in Birkenhead this afternoon. I noticed Myleene Klass had been included in the Classical Music section. I suppose Klass sounds like Classical.


She is a clsssically-trained pianist. No Annie Fisher but OK on mainstream Chopin.


----------



## hpowders

Today I received the Ronald Brautigam fortepiano set of the complete Mozart solo keyboard sonatas.

I played almost 2 CDs of the 6 CD set and am quite disappointed.

He plays stylistically fine and his fortepiano has a beautiful tone and remains in tune.

So what's wrong?

Brautigam plays every single repeat. Now, I wouldn't have minded this, IF, he embellished all repeats, but he doesn't ornament at all. So what I'm hearing, in essence, is practically every sonata performed TWICE, in exactly the same way.

Mozart wrote repeats with the expectation that they would be embellished. If Brautigam is no good at improvisation, that's no excuse, because ornamentation can be written out before hand on the score and simply memorized or sight-read to feign spontaneity.

Am I simply being hard to please? I don't believe so. Why use the proper HIP instrument and style to play Mozart and then take all repeats without bothering to ornament them?

Meanwhile the fortepiano used by Brautigam is the finest sounding instrument I have ever heard. A real gem! And the performance I have heard are all delightful.

Too bad he didn't go the "extra mile" with the repeats.

Since he didn't embelish the repeats, in my opinion, Brautigam would have been better off simply playing first repeats only.


----------



## Bulldog

DeepR said:


> I'm glad with the seperate forum for polls and games. Makes this place a lote more tidy.


The separate forum is also good for those who enjoy the polls and games; we don't have to trek through the extraneous threads unless we prefer to do so.


----------



## DeepR

Separate. Separate. Separate. Now I will never make that mistake again. Sjeesh. After all it's "separaat" in Dutch as well.


----------



## Bettina

DeepR said:


> Separate. Separate. Separate. Now I will never make that mistake again. Sjeesh. After all it's "separaat" in Dutch as well.


Thank you so much for the reminder! I keep on forgetting how to spell separate (and its variants, such as separation and separately). I'm constantly writing "hands sep*e*rately" on my students' scores.  I feel so guilty; I've probably influenced a whole generation of kids to spell that word incorrectly.


----------



## bharbeke

My mother taught me that there is "a rat" in separate. That has helped me remember its spelling ever since.


----------



## SixFootScowl

bharbeke said:


> My mother taught me that there is "a rat" in separate. That has helped me remember its spelling ever since.


That is roughly how I remember it except the person who told me said it is like separating a rat:

Sep *a rat* e 
(presumably with an axe).

Anyway, it stuck in my mind ("a rat", not the axe).


----------



## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> Why does every Bruckner No.4 that is not conducted by Sergiu Celibidache sound too fast?


Or some might say "why does Celibidache's Bruckner #4 sound slower than the others?"


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> Too bad they closed down the thread, Stupid Thread Ideas.
> 
> Now I have nowhere else to post stuff like:
> 
> "*Your Favorite Living Robo-Conductors.*"
> 
> Too bad. I have so many more.....


First one I ever heard of, and hopefully they relegate them to science museums and not orchestra halls:


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> First one I ever heard of, and hopefully they relegate them to science museums and not orchestra halls:


Yes. I know. His cousin was the robo-conductor on a Long Island Railroad train taking me from Penn Station, NYC to East Hampton, Long Island. He seemed quite Siri-ous.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> Yes. I know. His cousin was the robo-conductor on a Long Island Railroad Train taking me from Penn Station, NYC to East Hampton, Long Island. He seemed quite Siri-ous.


When it comes to conducting and these robo-conductors, I call for the Ludditeish stand, but not over jobs; rather, over artistic principal. We long ago rejected computer generated piano works (I had a CD like that and it just wasn't right).


----------



## hpowders

You know what? Perhaps, I am more conservative than I think.

After listening to two straight days of nothing but Mozart sonatas on fortepiano, I couldn't wait to get back to my Klára Würtz set on modern piano. Now, I believe Mozart sounds so much better on modern piano.

Mozart would have loved a modern Steinway or Yamaha. I don't think I'm making a stretch here.


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> When it comes to conducting and these robo-conductors, I call for the Ludditeish stand, but not over jobs; rather, over artistic principal. We long ago rejected computer generated piano works (I had a CD like that and it just wasn't right).


Yes. Human music needs human conducting and interpretative insight.

I would imagine a thread, "What constitutes human music?" could go on for years on TC.


----------



## Totenfeier

Robo-music bytes.


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

My respects for this oboist:


----------



## DeepR

In the Computer Talk topic I mentioned that I changed my Windows startup sound into the ending of Sibelius 7th:
https://app.box.com/s/fjkp8r3tttmcr6k67mllhg0rowqtdeu8

I would love to be able to play this sound through speakers at the office. It would be a signal for all nearby colleagues, so that everytime I played it, everybody would immediately shut their mouths, so I can focus and work in peace. Maybe project a picture of Sibelius on the wall going "hussshhhhh". Ahh that would be nice.


----------



## hpowders

hpowders said:


> You know what? Perhaps, I am more conservative than I think.
> 
> After listening to two straight days of nothing but Mozart sonatas on fortepiano, I couldn't wait to get back to my Klára Würtz set on modern piano. Now, I believe Mozart sounds so much better on modern piano.
> 
> Mozart would have loved a modern Steinway or Yamaha. I don't think I'm making a stretch here.


Correction: The above post was written under duress, after immersing myself in a day and a half worth of 18 Mozart Keyboard Sonatas performed on fortepiano with Ronald Brautigam, taking all repeats-in essence most of the sonatas were therefore played twice-the equivalent of listening to over 30 sonatas. I was getting a headache from too much fortepiano. Acute fortepiano fatigue.

Stepping back now, away from the fog, I can say without reservation that not only do Mozart piano sonatas sound better on fortepiano, but Brautigam's performances are amazing, and starting with the C Major Sonata K.330, right up until the final sonata, demonstrates inspired playing, obtaining pure poetry from his unwieldy instrument as I'm sure Mozart would have done. The A Major is the finest I have ever heard by anyone, piano or fortepiano. I just wish he would have omitted second section repeats. They are unnecessary.

Mozart himself, in concert, probably loved repeats because it would give him a chance to delight his audience and his own ego in creating inventive ornamentation on the spot. Being that Brautigam doesn't embellish the repeats, simply repeating what came before, "ver-note-em", comes off as simply dull.


----------



## Scopitone

Tonight's the first time I have listened to any classical in weeks (maybe longer).

Didn't realize how much I have been missing it. One's soul does tend to become a bit parched.

ETA: I used to joke that I liked to listen to classical music, but that I didn't much enjoy watching it. Youtube has really changed my opinion on that aspect. And I am _pretty_ sure it's not just because so many pianists and fiddlers are pretty women.

Sometimes I listen to Perlman, too. :angel:


----------



## Pat Fairlea

DeepR said:


> In the Computer Talk topic I mentioned that I changed my Windows startup sound into the ending of Sibelius 7th:
> https://app.box.com/s/fjkp8r3tttmcr6k67mllhg0rowqtdeu8
> 
> I would love to be able to play this sound through speakers at the office. It would be a signal for all nearby colleagues, so that everytime I played it, everybody would immediately shut their mouths, so I can focus and work in peace. Maybe project a picture of Sibelius on the wall going "hussshhhhh". Ahh that would be nice.


That famous pic of Sibelius and the need for peace and quiet reminded me of an interview with Emil Gilels in which he said if he ever left Russia he would move to Finland. Finland, Gilels said, is the home of silence and "without silence there is no music".


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

How many eight track tapes did it take for Beethoven 's 9 Symphonies?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> How many eight track tapes did it take for Beethoven 's 9 Symphonies?


Depends. Wikipedia says,


> Prerecorded eight-track tapes tended to hold only a single album, about 46 minutes of content, or 11.5 minutes per track. Consumers wanted the ability to record more music on a single cartridge, so manufacturers came out with units of greater capacity, i.e. 60 and 90 minutes tapes. A few 100 minutes tapes do exist.


But the longer the tape, the greater the problems. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_tape


----------



## Roger Knox

*Mozart on Fortepiano*



hpowders said:


> After listening to two straight days of nothing but Mozart sonatas on fortepiano, I couldn't wait to get back to my Klára Würtz set on modern piano. Now, I believe Mozart sounds so much better on modern piano.


This marathon listening is brave of you! I received the Deutsche Gramophone _Mozart 275_ cube of the complete works on 100 CD's. It features period instruments and performance practices, but also has great recordings of the past 80 years or so on modern instruments. I've listened to all the concertos played on fortepiano by Robert Levin or Malcolm Bilson. Next, rather than listen only to all the sonatas I'll mix them up with other types of music!

For Mozart I don't have a fixed preference for the fortepiano or the piano. I learned several sonatas on the modern piano which I love. But the fortepiano is fascinating -- I'll just mention the _Concerto for Three Pianos and Orchestra_, where the fortepianos sound like a harp or a silvery falling rain -- wonderful! Nice both ways, but the fortepiano wears on me sooner than the modern piano.


----------



## Granate

*Looping in my head*

I still remember how many pop songs got stuck in my head and in my classes I was like "Y las membranas de las células de las plantas Can't read ma can't read ma no he can't read ma poker face, she's got me like nobody". And the same thing with others like Shakira's Chantaje and other pretty good songs in the past.

Yesterday afternoon I watched the Proms ending of the Götterdammerung, conducted by Barenboim. The most satisfying thing was seeing the orchestra playing the ending (after the Inmolation scene by Nina Stemme). Well then, I went out with my friends and all I could think about while they drank beer was that ending score. On loop.


----------



## LezLee

From an advert some time ago:


----------



## Chris

Just a few minutes ago an email from Amazon popped up, titled Top CDs in Modern Classical. I thought, wow, Amazon promoting classical avant garde  . I opened up the email to see what CDs were on offer ....stand by for some serious atonality .....sit cross-legged on the floor and assume an expression of concentrated intellectual engagement.....

1. Debussy sonatas
2. Favourite opera arias from Mozart, Puccini, Lehar etc
3. Dvorak quintets
4. Vaughan Williams London Symphony
5. Martinu's Epic of Gilgamesh
6. A 30 CD anniversary box from Naxos
7. 'A Classic Christmas' comprising Ding Dong Merrily on High, Silent Night, etc
8. Vaughan Williams symphonies.

I suppose the Martinu is quite modern. And the Naxos box contains the Metropolis Symphony by Michael Daugherty. He's still alive!


----------



## jegreenwood

I've always liked the Jerome Kern/P.G. Wodehouse song "Till the Clouds Roll By," especially the duet version sung by Joan Morris and Max Morath with Wiliam Bolcom on piano. I just discovered that Kern "lifted" the first two lines of melody from the coda from the first movement of Beethoven's Op. 54. And Bolcom at least (probably the singers as well) must have realized it as the harmony is precisely that used by Beethoven.


----------



## Janspe

I was just reading an interview of Mitsuko Uchida from 1997, and here's a little snippet that caught my attention:



> Her shortlist of priorities currently reads: the Brahms and Bartok Second Concertos, the Chopin Preludes, the Beethoven Diabelli and the Bach Goldberg Variations and the 48 Preludes and Fugues (to be ready in time for her 70th birthday in the year 2018), and the Ligeti Concerto. While "slaving" over the Birtwistle Concerto a couple of years back she decided that she would learn at least one major contemporary piece every three years. Maybe open a few ears.


I would seriously give my left arm to hear her play this repertoire. I mean, Brahms #2? Bartók #2? That's so uncommon for her, as far as her recorded legacy goes. To know that she's played all three Bartók concertos but never recorded any of them... Not to mention the concertos of Ligeti and Birtwistle. This is just so painful!

I really hope she commits her WTC to disc next year - she's been talking about it quite a bit throughout the years.

But seriously, I need those Bartók concertos! And the Ligeti! And the Birtwistle! Aaaghghh!


----------



## Robert Gamble

Just a couple of random recommendations from the past few days:

1) Furtwangler's 2nd Symphony - Supposedly very Brucknerian, but I'm not a Bruckneraholic so I can't really say. I did greatly enjoy the performance by Barenboim however. For a long symphony it didn't feel long at all. Admittedly I was listening while working, but I recall finding it quite enjoyable to listen to.

2) Shaheen Farhat's 15th symphony ("Persian Gulf") - Ran across the composer in the Current Listening thread. Liked this one a lot. My wife (Iranian) says she recognizes some of the themes (not specifically but can recognize that they feel Iranian/Persian in flavor).


----------



## Granate

The Mahler/Bruckner game probably needs more members. The tally between Mahler's No.4 (73) and No.2 (5) and the reasons behind it are beyond my comprehension. Not that I love Mahler's No.2, but No.4 is second to my least favourite Mahler symphony and just cannot stop receiving votes (Also, Mahler No.1 17!!).

Ugh. I just need... harder stuff.


----------



## Tristan

Did I mention that the second movement of Scriabin's Piano Concerto is the greatest thing ever? 

Seriously if you haven't heard it, listen now


----------



## Donna Elvira

I mentioned on the What are you listening to now thread that I was going to listen to Alt Rhapsody with Klemperer and Krista Ludwig.
Ms. Ludwig certainly renders a very moving and technically refined interpretation but the soul of the piece is best explored by Marian Anderson, who really got to it's emotional heart.
Both of those recordings do have less than stellar choral groups but that's minor when considering the emotional depths that are explored in this piece.


----------



## bharbeke

Classical music covers could stand to have a lot more creativity. When I am looking for classical music in my Spotify albums, I just search out the most boring covers with the most words. I get that some are budget releases, but one creative person with a basic camera could liven up a lot of these albums.


----------



## DeepR

It's quite fascinating that I can put on my favorite classical music (which I've heard numerous times) as background music while doing other things, such as reading this forum, while at the same time I still get goosebumps during those key moments when I always get them. Even though I was barely paying attention to the music (I know, I know, the music deserves better). Those critical moments immediately snap me out of whatever I was doing and still make an impact.
Maybe it's a sign I've listened too often to the same music, if there's such a thing.


----------



## Donna Elvira

There are some composers that for most of us, not real "fans," are sort of one-work-composers.
Nevertheless, that one (or sometimes two, in the present case) is of such greatness that it includes that composer in the league with the greats.
I thought of this while listening to Bruch's Violin Concerto (there is also the Kol Nidre.)
Another, from the contemporary scene (although he has maybe 2 other quite great works) would be Steve Reich, his "Music for 18 Musicians," great, and destined to be a true classic. (his others would be his Tehillim and Desert Music.)


----------



## Roger Knox

I keep going back to Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2 in the Vienna Symphony/Semyon Bychkov CD on Sony. If it were an LP it would be worn out by now. At this point I've passed the point of "knowing why" and think there may be a secret connection with Vienna dark lager . . .


----------



## DeepR

Tristan said:


> Did I mention that the second movement of Scriabin's Piano Concerto is the greatest thing ever?
> 
> Seriously if you haven't heard it, listen now


You don't have to tell me that.  Well, at least it's one of the, if not the most beautiful slow movement in a piano concerto.
My favorite rendition is Ashkenazy (cond.) / Jablonski:


----------



## Roger Knox

Yesterday I discovered the late Romantic _Sixth Symphony_, op. 44 (1891) of Belgian composer, conductor and music critic Adolphe-Abraham Samuel (1824-1898). It is a beautiful work; the second movement (Eden) strikes me as especially intimate.


----------



## Totenfeier

Recent listening has confirmed for me a couple of things:

1. Except in a very few certain cases, I don't see why Beethoven would need a conductor other than Furtwaengler.

2. If Bernstein and Tennstedt are high-proof bourbon Mahler, Eliahu Inbal is champagne Mahler. Whether that is a positive or negative comment is up to your own taste.


----------



## Becca

Today I decided to explore some of the music of the mid 20th century Portuguese composer, Joly Braga Santos. The first piece that I listened to, the _Symphonic Variations_ was interesting and appealing so I have moved onto some of the symphonies starting with the 2nd. I have two reactions so far, first of all, they are well done and enjoyable BUT why do I keep catching glimpses of various other earlier 20th century composers? At various times I have heard bits that reminded me of Vaughan Williams, Walton, Tubin and quite a bit of Douglas Lilburn (!) And yes, all works that predated Braga Santos. The most obvious (to me) was the end of the 2nd symphony which sounds like a rework of the end of Respighi's _Pines of Rome_. And so, on to the 3rd symphony.


----------



## Razumovskymas

Are there really people who seriously listen to Beethoven opus 130 and seriously prefer the "alternative" finale movement instead of the Grosse Fuge. And if so, what kind of people are they?

Please come out of the closet! And if possible give your gender/age/location/professional occupation so we can get an idea of the demographics.


----------



## Blancrocher

I just knocked a cd case off a shelf and busted it--is there a way to replace jewel cases that contain 2 disks and a "flipping mechanism"?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Blancrocher said:


> I just knocked a cd case off a shelf and busted it--is there a way to replace jewel cases that contain 2 disks and a "flipping mechanism"?


That is why when I am at the library sale and CDs are 50 cents I will buy any junk music that has a good case. I have several 2CD cases such as you describe. Also I can go to my local music store and buy a variety of cases. I think they even have the 6-CD cases there, for about $1 to $2 a case. Also, on clean-up day at work, I rifle the trash for CD cases people indiscriminately toss.


----------



## Merl

Blancrocher said:


> I just knocked a cd case off a shelf and busted it--is there a way to replace jewel cases that contain 2 disks and a "flipping mechanism"?


That is so annoying. I've had to buy a few sets of 4-way and 6-way cd cases off ebay, for this reason, and they ain't cheap.


----------



## vesteel

Not just IMSLP, but a few archives and libraries like the Bibliothèque nationale de France, the Austrian National Library, and the New York Philharmonic Archives has also scanned and digitized lots of sheet music and manuscripts. a very exciting discovery for me


----------



## Guest

Tristan said:


> Did I mention that the second movement of Scriabin's Piano Concerto is the greatest thing ever?
> 
> Seriously if you haven't heard it, listen now


Thanks for recommending this. I had never heard the Scriabin Piano Concerto before and liked it very much.


----------



## Blancrocher

Am I correct in believing that "Musical Heritage Society" reissues of cds have the same sound quality as the originals?


----------



## Guest

Blancrocher said:


> I just knocked a cd case off a shelf and busted it--is there a way to replace jewel cases that contain 2 disks and a "flipping mechanism"?


I busted one of these simply by trying to open it for the second CD. 

I liberated a replacement from elsewhere...


----------



## eljr

Blancrocher said:


> I just knocked a cd case off a shelf and busted it--is there a way to replace jewel cases that contain 2 disks and a "flipping mechanism"?


Of course

I always keep a stack of both single and double around. (with flipping mechanism)


----------



## eljr

Blancrocher said:


> Am I correct in believing that "Musical Heritage Society" reissues of cds have the same sound quality as the originals?


if they are the same master they would

just check for the mastering


----------



## DeepR

Hehe.






From youtube: "How ironic. A young Gustav Mahler playing the clarinet 2:19.﻿"


----------



## Tristan

Are there any pieces you can just listen to over and over again?

I can't tell you how many times I've heard the 4th movement to Bruch's "Scottish Fantasy", but I never get tired of it.


----------



## Rach Man

What a beautiful, bright CD cover for a dark symphony!


----------



## elgar's ghost

Rach Man said:


> What a beautiful, bright CD cover for a dark symphony!
> 
> View attachment 113717


I would have liked to have seen this one, but perhaps better for Grieg's piano concerto if you know the backstory. 




EDIT: RIP, AP


----------



## Enthusiast

Rach Man said:


> What a beautiful, bright CD cover for a dark symphony!
> 
> View attachment 113717


It is. But, unless Previn recorded the work twice this is a very different cover the the LP I bought when it first came out:


----------



## Rach Man

Enthusiast said:


> It is. But, unless Previn recorded the work twice this is a very different cover the the LP I bought when it first came out:


Reading a review from Amazon, the reviewer stated that Previn recorded the 8th with the LSO in the early 1970's, which is probably your disc. This CD cover is from his recording in the early 1990's (I think).


----------



## Enthusiast

^^^ Yes, mine was definitely the 70s. Thanks.


----------



## Art Rock

In a thrift shop this morning (15 minutes driving, so I only go there when I have to be in that town):

I found a CD I was interested in (Prokofiev's Cinderella suite and Peter and the Wolf on Chandos, with Prokofiev's widow Lina Prokofiev doing the narration), but it had no price marking. All DVD's were announced to be 50 cents each, so I asked whether CD's were the same price. The girl helping me said: "Yes, but classical CD's are 25 cents because people are not interested in them". Made me happy and sad at the same time.


----------



## Tristan

*Haydn's trademark motif?*

I figured I probably shouldn't start a separate thread for this, but I was thinking about this and I had to share it with you guys. Basically, in three unrelated Haydn works the same motif occurs and I think it's very interesting and not a coincidence 

The motif is probably best exemplified by the 2nd movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 2:






Begins at 3:11, the whole movement resembles this motif's pattern, but the specific motif itself is at 4:01 (it's just 8 notes)

Listen to the second movement of Haydn's Divertimento in G, Hob. XIV/13 and there is that 8-note motif again:






First in its minor incarnation at 3:54 and then in the usual major at 6:12

I thought maybe these were the only two examples. But today I was listening to Haydn's Missa Brevis, Hob. XXII/1 and I heard this:






In the Benedictus at 8:05 there it is 

Anyone know if this motif occurs in any more of his works?


----------



## Becca

*What to do with Mahler's Blumine?*

Just what do you do with the _Blumine_? It certainly makes little sense in the 1st symphony, perhaps a bit more in the precursor to the 1st. Well how about inserting it as an interlude between two groups of songs from _Des Knaben Wunderhorn_ as Daniel Harding did today in Berlin, it certainly seemed to fit nicely.


----------



## Ethereality

I now believe the 6th symphony which Ludwig van Beethoven began composing in 1802, is _Tier 1_, the best work ever written. This epiphany can be realized by grasping the sheer bounds of expression and beauty that Beethoven crossed into, for a moment in time an exponentially infinite dimension of consciousness.

While you must listen to the whole symphony, here are the 2 great examples of profound discernment that no one could've ever reached or interpreted in their lifetime from where he started:

7:55 - 9:00 (must hear to the very end 9:00) 



8:18 - 10:00 (must hear to the very end)


----------



## flamencosketches

Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli sure is a great pianist, as good as they say. But boy, is he an eccentric in his interpretations, no less so than Glenn Gould or Sviatoslav Richter. I also don't think so highly of his famous recordings of the Debussy Préludes (though he really shines in the Images).

Anyway, the recording that convinced me of his greatness is the Schumann _Carnaval op.9_ on EMI. He plays everything super slowly and seriously. It's amazing, but not very playful (as perhaps it should be...?) but it is an insightful performance.


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