# UK or US Terminology?



## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

While learning music theory I'm getting confused over the terminology because I'm using a number of different training materials and some are UK and some US. Whats the preference when first learning the notes in terms of calling them Minim, Crochet etc or quater note, half note etc. Would it be good practice in the early days to stick to one or learn both and associate them with each other as I progress? 

Kind Regards,

Jamie


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## Drowning_by_numbers (May 30, 2006)

In the UK they are known as crochet minim etc. but I understand the opposite is true in the US. Personally in the UK I don't see the need for the half note etc method. Hope this helps a little 

Becky


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

for me, it's - whole, half, quarter, eighth, etc. i like it.

dj


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

American is over simplified, has not history and is limited (especially in Roman Numerals), and repeats unnecessary information. And so are is their music theory.

Could I get moar funny?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2008)

I think the quaver/crotchet terminology is more widely used to day, but I may be wrong and the standard pulse is the crotchet, but as Yagen Kiely points out the US does tend to change things just for the sake of change or just simple bloody mindedness, so they would go for some thing that is at odds with the rest  . So long as you do it right what does it matter, a rose is a rose is a rose. 
PS Yagens last post gives the impression that a little too much Red Wine has been taken lol


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

I never drink! Hate the stuff.

I just like reading ED...



> for me, it's - whole, half, quarter, eighth, etc. i like it.
> 
> dj


An American using US terminology*. Never thought I'd see it!

*Currupted words.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

...and a most vile pox upon the metric system!!!!!  

dj


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## Emilia (Apr 4, 2008)

I took a british system of theory for a while, and the easiest thing I can recommend is to become familar with both. It's a pain, but if you are in music for the long run (as I assume you are) it's a good idea.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I think it's useful to be familiar with both manners of terminology, especially if you enjoy reading books and articles about theory. While you're at it, it's also a good idea to learn well the mid-range clefs. If you _really_ want to have some fun, you could also learn the rules of Renaissance ligature notation.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Novelette said:


> I think it's useful to be familiar with both manners of terminology, especially if you enjoy reading books and articles about theory. While you're at it, it's also a good idea to learn well the mid-range clefs. If you _really_ want to have some fun, you could also learn the rules of Renaissance ligature notation.


Did you go to the graveyard to find this thread ?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

moody said:


> Did you go to the graveyard to find this thread ?


When someone suggested that we should have a discussion about revivals of older classical music, I thought they meant we should have revivals of older classical music discussions!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Old topics rock on all forums


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I learned the American naming conventions for rhythms, and I have to say that it makes a fair bit more sense than the British system. It's pretty easy to remember that a quarter-note is a note that lasts for a quarter of a bar (in common time). But then, 'crochet' is easier and more fun to say.

It gets a bit silly when you get down to quasihemidemisemiquavers, but then, 'hundred twenty-eigth note' sounds pretty silly too.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

ahammel said:


> I learned the American naming conventions for rhythms, and I have to say that it makes a fair bit more sense than the British system. It's pretty easy to remember that a quarter-note is a note that lasts for a quarter of a bar (in common time). But then, 'crochet' is easier and more fun to say.
> 
> It gets a bit silly when you get down to quasihemidemisemiquavers, but then, 'hundred twenty-eigth note' sounds pretty silly too.


No, quasihemidemisemiquavers is definitely more silly sounding. There is no sense of musical rhythmic proportion in the word, it's just a bunch of prefixes. If you said hemidemisemiquasiquavers, people probably wouldn't notice the difference.  Might as well say centiquavers, milliquavers, microquavers for how much people in Europe love their metric system!

I could never say minim or crochet for musical terms. They sound like sewing terms. 

I'm curious: how would you say double-dotted triplet 16th note in that other system?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm curious: how would you say double-dotted triplet 16th note in that other system?


Double-dotted triplet semiquaver, presumably.

More usually pronounced, "what kind of a sadistic lunatic wrote this rhythm?" in either system.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Flamme said:


> Old topics rock on all forums


A few things strike me while sifting through the archive:

1. There are, at minimum, four iterations of each specific topic [Beethoven vs. Mozart, etc.]; poll-mongers would be well served to search the archives to see if their poll idea already exists.
2. TC discussions are much more moderately tempered than previously.
3. That the current "generation" of TC'ers is much more hip than previous generations.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> No, quasihemidemisemiquavers is definitely more silly sounding. There is no sense of musical rhythmic proportion in the word, it's just a bunch of prefixes. If you said hemidemisemiquasiquavers, people probably wouldn't notice the difference.  Might as well say centiquavers, milliquavers, microquavers for how much people in Europe love their metric system!
> 
> I could never say minim or crochet for musical terms. They sound like sewing terms.
> 
> I'm curious: how would you say double-dotted triplet 16th note in that other system?


Hemidemisemi_quasi_quavers... I'm going to remember that for a long time and use it often.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Novelette said:


> Hemidemisemi_quasi_quavers... I'm going to remember that for a long time and use it often.


Slides off the tongue a little bit better, eh? :tiphat:


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

In my experience, even in England, musicians who play primarily pop music also tend to use the 'whole/half/quarter...etc' note system. I think it's probably slightly easier to remember because it doesn't involved learning new words, and it's easy to see what the relation of each note to the other is.

I don't think it takes much to learn the 'breve/semibreve/minim...etc' note system either. It's more fun as well because it's more arcane.

Speaking of arcane things, Novelette, how the hell did you learn the rules of Renaissance ligature notation?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

My old music theory teacher was devoted to Renaissance polyphony. One of the first books I studied intensively in my training was Knud Jeppesen's magisterial "Counterpoint: The Polyphonic Vocal Style of the Sixteenth Century." I learned it as a kid, so it's not a difficult system. I think of it as cursive for choral writing.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

I have that same book, but I skipped the part on ligature notation. I haven't come across so far in real life so up until now it hasn't really been a practical concern.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Almost 20 years later, I still learn from that little book.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Antique thread, I know, but if anyone wants to more currently look to it because they have the same Q....

The American system of durations names is pretty much only in use in America (one contributor has said it is also common in pop music in other English-speaking countries.)
The English system is not English, but antique Latin, as first and still used throughout Europe as well as currently in use (outside the U.S.) by classical musicians around the world.
If you think you may be working abroad, or with musicians abroad, the "Crochet" set of designations will take you much further toward quick and clear communication than will the American system

If you study classical music theory anywhere, you will be learning the Roman numeral designation of chord 'spellings.'
Within that system there is a slight variance in usage within the U.S. and without:
In the U.S. major triads are given upper case Roman numerals, minor augmented and diminished are in lower case Roman, the augmented and diminished with added plus or degree symbol or clarification. 
All systems outside the U.S. consistently use the lower case Roman numerals for all chords.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I find it kind of funny that America, the last major bastion against the metric system, should have invented names for notes that are far more "metric" than those used in Britain. And just for once, I prefer the American naming convention; the names are just vastly easier to remember because they are logical. 

Ahammel: I never even realized that the Americans also have their own naming conventions for rhythms...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Novelette said:


> A few things strike me while sifting through the archive:
> 
> 1. There are, at minimum, four iterations of each specific topic [Beethoven vs. Mozart, etc.]; poll-mongers would be well served to search the archives to see if their poll idea already exists.


It goes like this on all forums, but some topics are so much fun they deserve to be resurrected every now and then. 



> 2. TC discussions are much more moderately tempered than previously.


As with claviers, the ideal is of course that discussions should be well tempered.



> 3. That the current "generation" of TC'ers is much more hip than previous generations.


You could say that the older generation tends to be rather crotchety...


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

brianvds said:


> Ahammel: I never even realized that the Americans also have their own naming conventions for rhythms...


I meant that I learned to call it a quarter note rather than a crochet. I suppose I should have said "note values", rather than "rhythms".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brianvds said:


> I find it kind of funny that America, the last major bastion against the metric system, should have invented names for notes that are far more "metric" than those used in Britain. And just for once, I prefer the American naming convention; the names are just vastly easier to remember because they are logical.
> 
> Ahammel: I never even realized that the Americans also have their own naming conventions for rhythms...


Those words with super, med, or sub don't seem to be thought of as 'furrin,' because they are in common enough usage... Supervisor, superintendant, the median strip of a highway, submarine, etc. Hemisphere, demi-tasse, semi, all also familiar enough... and they're all from Latin, of course.

The Latin names for note durations are as equally 'logical' if you happen to know the meaning of the Latin vs. just memorizing the odd word or two by rote


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Those words with super, med, or sub don't seem to be thought of as 'furrin,' because they are in common enough usage... Supervisor, superintendant, the median strip of a highway, submarine, etc. Hemisphere, demi-tasse, semi, all also familiar enough... and they're all from Latin, of course.
> 
> The Latin names for note durations are as equally 'logical' if you happen to know the meaning of the Latin vs. just memorizing the odd word or two by rote


Alas, my Latin is rather patchy. I learned some when I studied biology, because of all those geeky-sounding scientific names of plants and animals. Mind you, I am never sure whether it's Latin or Greek, because in taxonomy both are used. You are right: if you know a bit about what it means, a lot of stuff begins to make sense and it become far easier to remember the terms. But I never got around to this with musical terminology because the books never explained it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brianvds said:


> Alas, my Latin is rather patchy. I learned some when I studied biology, because of all those geeky-sounding scientific names of plants and animals. Mind you, I am never sure whether it's Latin or Greek, because in taxonomy both are used. You are right: if you know a bit about what it means, a lot of stuff begins to make sense and it become far easier to remember the terms. But I never got around to this with musical terminology because the books never explained it.


Some of us, the older 'crochety' crew, actually had Latin as an available second language course in high schools. If you took Latin but one year, there is enough of the vocabulary still in place years later to work out some terms using those word parts. Barring that, some in English classes were given a dose or two, in lists to be learned, of those handy Latin and Greek roots which are pretty commonly used word parts in English.

I still have to stop and think, like a mathematically challenged person, to 'work out' the Crochet, quaver designations.... taught only in passing in American music schools and conservatories: they are taught and then immediately obliterated by the everyday use of the "American" designations for note durations.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

PetrB said:


> The English system is not English, but antique Latin, as first and still used throughout Europe [...]


In German, it's _ganze/halbe/Viertel-/Achtel-/... Note_ ("whole/half/quarter/eighth/... note") since the "modern" notation and the introduction of same-length bars (17th century).


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brianvds said:


> I never even realized that the Americans also have their own naming conventions for rhythms...


Certainly, you meant note duration values


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ebab said:


> In German, it's _ganze/halbe/Viertel-/Achtel-/... Note_ ("whole/half/quarter/eighth/... note") since the "modern" notation and the introduction of same-length bars (17th century).


Ach! So that's where us Yanks got it from.

N.B. Crotchety Schoolers, you can blame the Germans for being lazy short-cut minded.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

The French terminology seems much more logical to me, but it's maybe because I'm French 








That's funny because it doesn't seem to match the Uk and German terminology in terms of etymology. Seems more visually oriented. Oh, whatever.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Germans like numbers!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

In spanish you have:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Ebab said:


> In German, it's _ganze/halbe/Viertel-/Achtel-/... Note_ ("whole/half/quarter/eighth/... note") since the "modern" notation and the introduction of same-length bars (17th century).


And in Afrikaans, it's _heel-, half-, kwart-, agtstenoot_ etc., again meaning whole, half, quarter etc. And that is how I learned them, when I had a few months of piano lessons as a child (if the teacher hadn't moved away, you folks here may well have spoken my name in the same hushed tones we usually reserve for the likes of Ashkenazy.  )

To this day, I have to do a little mental translation trick when confronted with the English system.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

So French and Spanish speakers are basically using the same system. Cool !


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Andreas said:


> Germans like numbers!


Inspiring beverages are traditionally being served in quantities of one whole, one half, (increasingly less preferably: ) one quarter, one eighth, of the locally customary basic quantity.

So this nomenclature seems perfectly fathomable to the German experience.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Praeludium said:


> So French and Spanish speakers are basically using the same system. Cool !


The French and Spanish basically speak the same language. They just spell and pronounce it differently.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

This is turning into the best thread ever.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Andreas said:


> Germans like numbers!


Especially if it is something like _fünfhundertvierundsechzigtausendzweihundertsieben undneunzig_ (the software split it, but actually there should be no space there).


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Especially if it is something like _fünfhundertvierundsechzigtausendzweihundertsieben undneunzig_ (the software split it, but actually there should be no space there).


Too many notes, my dear von Häbenschriftenschünenschaftenschprechenwürstenzipfelschteiner!

(Hmmm, there's a space in mine too. This forum software has lousy German-language support.)


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Too many notes, my dear von Häbenschriftenschünenschaftenschprechenwürstenzipfelschteiner!
> 
> (Hmmm, there's a space in mine too. This forum software has lousy German-language support.)


As Mark Twain put it: Some German words are so long that they have a perspective.


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

What's wrong with the good ol' quarter, half, whole, etc. system? Much easier to learn (and teach).


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Rachmanijohn said:


> What's wrong with the good ol' quarter, half, whole, etc. system? Much easier to learn (and teach).


They're both fairly straightforward, in my opinion. The quarter/half/whole note system could be misleading insofar as it presupposes 4/4, 2/2, or 1/1 time [the last one, just imagine!]. Or so it seems to me; but then again, I guess that when considered in abstraction, whole notes are not usually thought of in the context of time signature weighting.

Eek, never mind!


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

Question, if a semibreve is a whole note, what would we call a breve? A double note?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

We'd call it a Double Whole Note--after the whole notes, we call them by their multiples--which is consistent with how we call the divisions of the whole note by their factor.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I grew up with little Johnny crochet and old mother minim but later on I had an American teacher and then worked with lots of Americans and international conductors and starting understanding, using and preferring the numerical system. I feel silly now saying crochet but can do it if I have to

A guy I used to work with in an orchestra would keep an eye out for "the first breve of the year". I was there when it arrived in October - not even a record!!


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