# Is Das Lied a symphony?



## Oliver (Feb 14, 2012)

I read that Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde was supposed to be his ninth symphony, but he wanted to avoid the curse so didn't call it Symphony 9. Does this mean it's correct to call it a symphony, even though it is 6 songs?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GeneralOJB said:


> I read that Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde was supposed to be his ninth symphony, but he wanted to avoid the curse so didn't call it Symphony 9. Does this mean it's correct to call it a symphony, even though it is 6 songs?


The concept of "symphony" certainly changed over time, but I see no point in applying the term to a song-cycle, especially since Mahler himself chose not to for whatever reason. As far as I know, no one has seen fit to challenge him on this.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

That casts some doubt on the status of Shostakovich's 13th and 14th Symphonies...


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

AFAIK Mahler subtitled his work when published
_
Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte")_

Moreover, none of the songs are usually performed alone as it happens for most song-cycles...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GioCar said:


> AFAIK Mahler subtitled his work when published
> _
> Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte")_
> 
> Moreover, none of the songs are usually performed alone as it happens for most song-cycles...


Ahhh, but is the structure replete with a sonata-allegro first movement? <g>

At some point in the later romantic, certainly in the early twentieth century on, I think we have to accept some symphonies follow the formal 'regs' of the earlier classical and mid-romantic practices, and others still use the word in its original sense, "Sinfonia," as in sounding together.

Without analysis (I'm sure one or two TC members are inclined and will reply here) it is a _Symphonic Song Cycle,_ and it is clearly, audibly, one work in sequential parts, of equal proportion and weight to many a more formal symphony.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Ahhh, but is the structure replete with a sonata-allegro first movement? <g>
> 
> At some point in the later romantic, certainly in the early twentieth century on, I think we have to accept some symphonies follow the formal 'regs' of the earlier classical and mid-romantic practices, *and others still use the word in its original sense, "Sinfonia," as in sounding together*.
> 
> Without analysis (I'm sure one or two TC members are inclined and will reply here) it is a _Symphonic Song Cycle,_ and it is clearly, audibly, one work in sequential parts, of equal proportion and weight to many a more formal symphony.


Luciano Berio couldn't have said this better


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

GioCar said:


> AFAIK Mahler subtitled his work when published
> _
> Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte")_


IMO, it clearly is a symphony given that Mahler gave it such a title. It is separate from the others merely because it is unnumbered.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

If it's not a symphony, then my whole life is a lie.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GioCar said:


> Luciano Berio couldn't have said this better


Berio saying it would have had either a charming Italian accent, or been in Italian.
Thanks, though. Berio's _Sinfonia_ a clear and shining example of the precise 'other' word very rightly applied to that work.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> If it's not a symphony, then my whole life is a lie.


And your academic credibility, and that upcoming bid for tenure, all shot to hell


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GeneralOJB said:


> I read that Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde was supposed to be his ninth symphony, but he wanted to avoid the curse so didn't call it Symphony 9. Does this mean it's correct to call it a symphony, even though it is 6 songs?


Mahler wrote 9. Symphonie on the title page, then crossed it out and gave the work its present title. Alma claimed that this was because he was afraid of the idea of writing a Ninth Symphony after Beethoven (and Bruckner?) had found that 9 was the limit, and as he had a superstitious aspect to his personality, this is possible.

_But_ it's also true that unlike every single one of his numbered symphonies, Das Lied does not have a sonata-allegro first movement. In fact, the settings are generally more sectional than developmental (though the sections are not exact repetitions), which sets it apart in technique from the rest of his symphonic works. On the other hand, there are unifying motifs that run throughout the work.

I think it's best to call it a symphonic song cycle, or a song cycle of symphonic scope.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Mahler wrote 9. Symphonie on the title page, then crossed it out and gave the work its present title. Alma claimed that this was because he was afraid of the idea of writing a Ninth Symphony after Beethoven (and Bruckner?) had found that 9 was the limit, and as he had a superstitious aspect to his personality, this is possible.
> 
> _But_ it's also true that unlike every single one of his numbered symphonies, Das Lied does not have a sonata-allegro first movement. In fact, the settings are generally more sectional than developmental (though the sections are not exact repetitions), which sets it apart in technique from the rest of his symphonic works. On the other hand, there are unifying motifs that run throughout the work.
> 
> I think it's best to call it a symphonic song cycle, or a song cycle of symphonic scope.


He wouldn't be the only composer superstitious about numbers.

Your amigo,

Aron


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> He wouldn't be the only composer superstitious about numbers.
> 
> Your amigo,
> 
> Aron


01 S
02 U
03 P
04 E
05 R
06 S
07 T
08 I
09 T
10 I
11 O
12 U
13 S

_*Uh oh*_, maybe time to fiddle with the spelling of that one, too, mi amigo


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

7,8,9 for tat.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GioCar said:


> AFAIK Mahler subtitled his work when published
> _
> Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte")_
> 
> Moreover, none of the songs are usually performed alone as it happens for most song-cycles...


I stand corrected, historically at least. I suppose if Mahler considered his recent extravaganza-of-a-thousand to be a symphony, _Das Lied_ might as well be one too. The definition of "symphony" then becomes something like "a piece of music I call a symphony" - a very modern, Romantic-freedom-run-amok way of looking at things, akin to "anything is art if I say it is."

Thankfully, we're _post_-modern now (or is it _post_-post-modern - I'm old and I lose track), so we needn't worry our empty heads about what _anything_ is.

Relaxing, isn't it?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I stand corrected, historically at least. I suppose if Mahler considered his recent extravaganza-of-a-thousand to be a symphony, _Das Lied_ might as well be one too.


No, no, no!!!!!!!

Mahler's Symphony No. 8 in E-flat major *(no subtitle)* is, in fact, a symphony, not because the composer called it a symphony, but because it is a large-scale work of a developmental character with a first movement in sonata-allegro form. Why on earth do people keep implying or saying it's not a symphony?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Interesting to compare Scheherazade, which the composer never even hinted was a symphony, with Das Lied. I suspect that if we look beyond the composers' naming practices, we would find that, of the two, Scheherazade is more like what most people think of as a "symphony".


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> I think it's best to call it a symphonic song cycle, or a song cycle of symphonic scope.


I agree. Also, while many well know figures have considered it to be "Mahler's greatest work"; I think that only applies to its orchestration. It seems to me that his greatest achievement is his Symphony No. 3 (which doesn't mean it is the most perfect, beautiful or interesting of the cycle).


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Interesting to compare Scheherazade, which the composer never even hinted was a symphony, with Das Lied. I suspect that if we look beyond the composers' naming practices, we would find that, of the two, Scheherazade is more like what most people think of as a "symphony".


Rimsky's 2nd Symphony is not really a symphony either - he stated calling it a symphony but later reconsidered and called it a symphonic suite. It's still called his 2nd Symphony though. Can't Das Lied be Mahler's 8 1/2 Symphony?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Das Lied is a song cycle for 2 voices and orchestra. How can anyone consider it to be a symphony.

If you do, might as well consider Kindertotenlieder to be his "Simple Symphony".


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

No big deal, other composers have works not titled so, and yet many of us feel free to call them symphonies. Do what you like. Me? I can swing both ways. And I promise if elected....


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. It really is not a big deal. 

A bigger deal would have been if Mahler had burned the original score because he was frustrated, not knowing whether to call it a symphony or song cycle.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Radames said:


> Rimsky's 2nd Symphony is not really a symphony either - he stated calling it a symphony but later reconsidered and called it a symphonic suite. It's still called his 2nd Symphony though. Can't Das Lied be Mahler's 8 1/2 Symphony?


8 1/2 is forever Federico Fellini's bailiwick, along with it's inimitable Nina Rota soundtrack 
Trailer:




Complete Film:


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Das Lied is a song cycle for 2 voices and orchestra. How can anyone consider it to be a symphony.


Because Mahler called it a *symphony* for 2 voices and orchestra.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Skilmarilion said:


> Because Mahler called it a *symphony* for 2 voices and orchestra.


Oh well. What did he know? :lol:


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

He should have called the Symphony No. 8 "Lobgesang".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Yes. It really is not a big deal.
> 
> A bigger deal would have been if Mahler had burned the original score because he was frustrated, not knowing whether to call it a symphony or song cycle.


Bravo!  ...............................


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Oh well. What did he know? :lol:


I think he knew this, and very well, and wasn't too worried about "sonata allegro form" when writing a symphonic song cycle...

_"Sinfonia is the Italian word for symphony, from the Latin symphonia, in turn derived from Ancient Greek συμφωνία sumphōnia (agreement or concord of sound)"_

but what _do I_ know?


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