# Beethoven's Missa Solemnis



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Missa Solemnis -- a massive, impressive, and somehow peculiar work. What do you say about it? Your favorite performances? Why?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

It remains among my favorite works. For three months last year, it was all I would listen to. I studied the score ravenously and obsessed exhaustingly over it.

I admit, I'm a bit fanatical of Beethoven's later period works.

It is the Agnus Dei movement that I find most extraordinary. The singers begin with a very poignant pleading for repose from the miseries of the world, as is typical. Miserere! Miserere!

But a very dramatic shift comes... The pleading for peace begins, in a rather exhausted albeit compelling way, and the quiet optimism fades when the great brass, evoking the military signals and perhaps paying homage to the same technique in Haydn's Nelson Mass. The military might erupts, and the singers frantically return to their begging for mercy: Miserere! Miserere!

The music charges up again in a remarkable fugal section, military fright returns, and all quietly dissolves back into the calm pleading for peace, broken periodically by the menacing tapping of military drums in the distance--a reminder of the endless perils of human suffering, and a perhaps disillusioned reminder of the disturbing existence of grave evil permitted by god. Peace is not to be found by turning only to god. There is the great dramatic interest, usually we are reminded in the Agnus Dei section that despite villainy in the world, god will be our great and peaceful refuge--the arbiter of virtue and the adjudicator of fate. Beethoven seems to leave the question open--the prior pleading for mercy failed to protect us from the fearsome military fright...

In a way, and I admit that this is only my own fantasizing, I find the 9th Symphony to be the completion of the challenges left open at the end of the Missa Solemnis. In the symphony is a humanistic celebration of the universal brotherhood of mankind, of the sanctity of community, and, implicitly at least, the promises of an optimistic future engendered by the great coming-together of mankind. It seems to complete the challenges of the Missa Solemnis.

Missa Solemnis -- celebrate the glory of god, but look not to him to end our plight.
9th Symphony -- wordly ills are overcome by brotherhood; where god's providence ends, mankind's obligation begins.

Or perhaps I'm just hallucinating? 

At any rate, I love the Missa Solemnis with a passion. I'm fond of Gardiner's recording, far more so than Klemperer's. It's not so commonly performed given its incomparable difficulty. When I found out that it was being performed in March last year in Chicago, I had to go. They performed it there again in October, but I chose the March performance. Remarkable performance, remarkable piece.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I only have the Kenneth Schermerhorn recording with the Nashville Symphony on Naxos. That may be my home town and we all loved Maestro Schermerhorn, but I'm pretty sure there are much better recordings out there. 

I'd place the work as a second tier Beethoven work, not quite the lofty statements of his final quartets, the late piano sonatas or the symphonies. It's is beautiful, inspiring, joyous, is very much Beethoven, and does make the hair on my arms stand on end at times, just not to the extent of other works. It surpasses his Mass in C and Fidelio. I absolutely love the fugue sections but would rather go listen to something a little more -- I don't know -- sonata allegro-ish from Beethoven.

Perhaps that's it. He doesn't bully the themes into submission so much in this work.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Weston, if I understand your meaning about preferring something more "sonata allegro-ish", I completely understand.

The Missa Solemnis is very difficult to listen to, there's so little recapitulation, so little development of prior themes. It's mostly a bombardment of new, overwhelming music. It certainly prevented me from listening to it intensively for years.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Don't get me wrong though. I put it on in the background for writing my previous post, just to remind myself of it. Having just reached about 2/3 of the way into the Gloria with the martial drum roll and a mighty chorus, I had to turn it off. It was making my eyes water. Even second tier Beethoven can be overwhelming.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Novelette said:


> The Missa Solemnis is very difficult to listen to, there's so little recapitulation, so little development of prior themes. It's mostly a bombardment of new, overwhelming music.


I find it "easy" to listen to (if that's the right word) but agree on its style. Very un-Beethoven! I think that's at the heart of why it seems so strange.

And I don't think it's 2nd-tier Beethoven -- just different from his usual.

Performances? I go with the flow. Gardiner if you lean to the left, Klemper if you lean to the right. See Cream's "Politician."


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

More respected than loved, if you get what I mean. As for which version, this one


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> More respected than loved, if you get what I mean.


The same is sometimes said of the Hammerklavier.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It´s an intricate, monumental piece, but worth the effort to get to know it better. It wasn´t mentioned yet, but apparently Beethoven considered it his best work, so that alone qualifies for exploration. And once again, Peter Gutmann has interesting things to say about the work in his survey on the web.

One of the cases where - so far - I prefer the old DG Karajan, due to its clear structures. The digital Karajan however wasn´t good, and the Klemperer stereo - which I also own - doesn´t have the same _Schwung_, doesn´t get off the ground in the same way as Karajan, IMO.

I´ve also got a mainstream Masur recording - and an old Wand/Gürzenich on Nonesuch which seems fine as well, although with poor sound.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> More respected than loved, if you get what I mean. As for which version, this one


I have this one and just about to put it on. I think that is one problem with the MS for me; I have to be reminded about it as it seems slightly hidden behind the late quartets and sonatas, like an interesting book lodged at the back of the bookcase. Without going into each section I believe this supreme work isn't the easiest to get to grips with, but neither was it meant to be - I discovered it quite late on in the middle of a live broadcast and came in at the sanctus which transfixed me. So, many thanks for reminding me again and I have my afternoon's listening.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

The form is so free-flowing, I find it hard to follow. Might try listening with the sheet music sometime.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Great comments so far, for and against. I hated it the first three times I heard it. The fourth time it clicked, and it's one of my all-time favorites. I prefer Gardiner's version, because when I'm following with the score, I can hear all the parts I'm seeing.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

My initial impression of it was that it contained some great beauty, but was put off by some of the more overpowering, bombastic moments. That's just not my thing. I gave it a few relistens, and culled out the two movements I found off-offputting (I'd have to check my iPod which ones, I don't recall offhand).

What remains, I love.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

I have heard that Beethoven said that it was his favorite work, but i have also heard that when someone asked "What was your favorite work to compose Luigi" on his deathbed, he answered Eroica.

Personally i think its pure gold.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2013)

Forgive my hyperbole, but it is, quite simply, one of the greatest choral works of all time. It is in my top 3, along with Bach's Mass in B Minor, and Brahms' Ein deutsches Requiem.

I have 3 recordings - the Gardiner one, already mentioned, Klemperer's incredible one, and Herreweghe. I go back and forth between Gardiner and Klemperer, with Klemperer getting the edge in how frequently I listen to him.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> More respected than loved, if you get what I mean. As for which version, this one


Michael Gambon looks very good in that picture...


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

It is on my short list of greatest pieces of music ever written -- has been since I first put it on (the Klemperer recording) when I was about nineteen (that was 40+ years ago). Haven't heard Gardiner's, but will get it.

I am not traditionally religious, but it can inspire me spiritually (which Beethoven admitted was one of his intents). I love all of it, but some favorite parts: the big double fugue at the end of the Credo; the soaring solo violin in the Benedictus; the Dona Nobis Pacem. My Desert lsland List is top heavy with late Beethoven, but if I had to pare it down to three, it would be this, the E-flat quartet, and the c-minor piano sonata.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

Christian Thielemann conducted an excellent performance of this recently, it can be found on youtube and is among my favorite versions (my all-time favorite is on an unmarked cassette tape, not sure who performed it). Overall though this really is a great work, the Agnus Dei from it is by far my favorite setting of the text.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It is a fantastic work, both sublime and troubled. The Angus Dei ends in a troubled plea for peace! You have to feel strong to listen to it yet it is Pharos the most satisfying of Beethoven's works. 
I've several recordings by Herreweghe, Gardiner and two by Karajan.
For me Karajan's 1960s version with superb soloists including Wunderlich best captures the spirit of the work. I know some speeds are too slow and there are faults of balance. But the whole thing has a rapt spirituality that other versions (to me) don't match. 
But it is such a monumental work it can take different approaches.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

This work I really don't get.. I have a hard time appreciating this unlike Mozart's Requiem or Schubert masses.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Webernite said:


> The form is so free-flowing, I find it hard to follow. Might try listening with the sheet music sometime.


Listening along with sheet music is my preferred way to listen to most music. With such a large work, I usually read the vocal score. The full score is a bit difficult to follow so quickly.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I find it "easy" to listen to (if that's the right word) but agree on its style. Very un-Beethoven! I think that's at the heart of why it seems so strange.
> 
> And I don't think it's 2nd-tier Beethoven -- just different from his usual.
> 
> Performances? I go with the flow. Gardiner if you lean to the left, Klemper if you lean to the right. See Cream's "Politician."


Good point, I spoke a bit carelessly. It was difficult to listen to the first few times, with such an overwhelming bombardment of relentless genius, it was easy for me to become disoriented. These days, I know it like the back of my hand, as they say, and I find it very easy to listen to now.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm not familiar with this work - I only actually listen to church music in the Church. Seriously, it's the only time. We often attend the choir mass in Dublin and to hear the choir sing is like prayer by proxy. It's elevated, and leads the mind to prayer and to higher thoughts, and just where and when it should be led to these things.

The music gives glory to God. I don't even know which composers they sing, but once I checked and it was Schubert, another time they sang a Bach mass. Prayer by proxy.

Which leads me to my query: is Beethoven's a secular mass? Is it a mass that gives glory to him and his powers, or does it divert the mind to prayer and to God? Is it filled with his own ideas, or is he faithful to the mass itself?

I've heard many criticisms even of Mozart masses and Verdi's requiem - that they're more like opera than functions of worship - and though I don't necessarily agree, I can see why this has been said. The music is more about the composer than about prayer, and taking part in mass.

I wonder what you think?


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Beethoven was raised in a Catholic family, but as an adult rarely saw the inside of a church, and his personal religious beliefs seemed to tend toward the deistic, but are difficult to perceive because he talked about them rarely. In preparing to write the Missa Solemnis -- actually his second Mass -- he studied the liturgy closely, had it newly translated for his own study and use, and talked to priests about the doctrinal meaning of each line. He also studied historical Church music closely. He planned it to perform at the installation ceremony as Archbishop of Olmutz of his absolute favorite pupil -- Archduke Rudolph (son of Leopold II). He missed that deadline by miles and years.

It is not a secular Mass in the way of, say, Janacek -- who had no religious belief -- but his reverence for the glory and immensity of God is pretty clear, as is a theme of love, going in both directions, between God and man. It will give you chills.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I'm not familiar with this work - I only actually listen to church music in the Church. Seriously, it's the only time. We often attend the choir mass in Dublin and to hear the choir sing is like prayer by proxy. It's elevated, and leads the mind to prayer and to higher thoughts, and just where and when it should be led to these things.
> 
> The music gives glory to God. I don't even know which composers they sing, but once I checked and it was Schubert, another time they sang a Bach mass. Prayer by proxy.
> 
> ...


I would say to definitely give this mass a try. It is an amazing work, and while Beethoven might not have signed it in the same way that Bach did with his works (Soli Deo Gloria), I think that he very much does the religious aspect of the mass proud. This work stands as one of the great monuments of Beethoven's work, and that is saying a lot, and that he would have put that much effort into a work that is fundamentally meant as a worship of God, I think should speak for itself. I think you will having nothing but a positive experience with this.

Incidentally, there is a great deal of religious music out there that are worth hearing in more than just the church setting. Haydn wrote a great deal of masses that are also incredible. The Renaissance masses and other religious works written by many of the greats of that era (Ockeghem, Palestrina, Tallis, des Prez, Tomkins, Allegri, etc.) are very much worth listening to.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DrMike said:


> I would say to definitely give this mass a try. It is an amazing work, and while Beethoven might not have signed it in the same way that Bach did with his works (Soli Deo Gloria), I think that he very much does the religious aspect of the mass proud. This work stands as one of the great monuments of Beethoven's work, and that is saying a lot, and that he would have put that much effort into a work that is fundamentally meant as a worship of God, I think should speak for itself. I think you will having nothing but a positive experience with this.
> 
> Incidentally, there is a great deal of religious music out there that are worth hearing in more than just the church setting. Haydn wrote a great deal of masses that are also incredible. The Renaissance masses and other religious works written by many of the greats of that era (Ockeghem, Palestrina, Tallis, des Prez, Tomkins, Allegri, etc.) are very much worth listening to.


It is an amazing work. I love it, despite its unease. I think Beethoven studied some of the old masters like Palestrina before composing it.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The Missa Solemnis is without a doubt one of the greatest works in the entire choral repertoire , whether sacred or secular . It may be daunting at first to those unfamiliar with it , but it certainly grows on you !
By thew way, a wag once called Leonard Bernstein's controversial "Mass " his "Mitzvah Solemnis ". 
LOL !


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> This work I really don't get.. I have a hard time appreciating this unlike Mozart's Requiem or Schubert masses.


It took me a while to come to appreciate the Missa Solemnis, too. The first few times I listened to it, I was overwhelmed by the endless onslaught of seemingly undirected music.

Familiarity caused me to come to appreciate it, and, later, obsessiveness caused me to practically worship it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

A monumental work. My favorite recordings:


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Very fine (the Schuricht & Ormandy recordings), and thanks! ... Well, if it's THIS great work, then I can make recommendations among two of my favorites - Bjorling and the "old man"/Toscanini ... as they were together in truly-great recordings (1939 & 1940) from the past. I think there was a recording, with another "old man" - Koussevitzky - and will try to find it. Anyhoo, I hope anyone who has even a "slight" interest in this exceptional work, will follow up.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

If not for the singers alone, Michel Schwalbé (violin)is the best in the solo violin piece .


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I shouldn't have brought this thread back up. I have maybe eight Missa (3 I haven't even listened to yet) and somehow think I may need more.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The last great Classical work of the tradition of credo-messes (which was probably started by J.J. Fux, and continued on by Mozart (K.192, K.257) *notice the word "credo" is sung in a two-note motif), 
and-




"Gregorian melodies, of course, continued to be used in the Mass throughout the eighteenth century; but by Beethoven's time they were relatively rare, especially in orchestral Masses. The one composer who still used them extensively is Michael Haydn, in his a cappella Masses for Advent and Lent. It is significant that in some of these he limits the borrowed melody to the Incarnatus and expressly labels it "Corale." In the Missa dolorum B. M. V. (1762) it is set in the style of a harmonized chorale, in the Missa tempore Qudragesima of 1794 note against note, with the Gregorian melody (Credo IV of the Liber Usualis) appearing in the soprano. I have little doubt that Beethoven knew such works of Michael Haydn, at that time the most popular composer of sacred music in Austria."
< Beethoven / Michael Spitzer / P.123~124 >



hammeredklavier said:


> I think the cutest portrayal of Beethoven in film is this:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever since I watched this scene, the "Ven!tu!ri! Ven!tu!ri!" in the missa solemnis have always sounded to me like "Bee!tho!ven! Bee!tho!ven!" I think this moment of the piece is quite ecstatic too.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

I think a lot of the more skeptikal comments have a lot to do with the way the Mass is performed. For many years I felt like some of the other commentators that it was unquestionably a great piece but rather to be respected than loved. Why so loud and why this succession of pieces at about the same level of hyper-intensity, especially the Kyrie, Gloria and Credo? The recordings I knew (Karajan, Jochum, even Klemperer) to me primarily seemed intent to demonstrate how fiendishly difficult it is to sing (which it is, plenty of high As and worse for the choir sopranos and tenors, and of course even worse for the soloists). Then I came across Harnoncourt's final recording of 2016 with the Arnold Schoenberg Choir and the Concentus Musicus. I am normally not a great fan especially of the Concentus but in this case for the first time I could listen to a Missa Solemnis without focusing on whether the choir would make it in pitch to the end and hearing a real difference in volume and character between the Kyrie, Gloria and Credo in particular. I am often not too happy with Harnoncourt's soloists, also in this case, but Bernarda Fink is just wonderful here. The soloists in other recordings sometime sound as if they were singing a religious sequel to a La Boheme. 
I just read that he had struggled with what he felt to be the "empty pathos" of the work throughout his life which again has a lot to do with the reception of his music since the late 19th century. He certainly overcame that struggle.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

SixFootScowl said:


> I shouldn't have brought this thread back up. I have maybe eight Missa (3 I haven't even listened to yet) and somehow think I may need more.


Right, I love this so much it drags out the packrat in me and I have no idea how many recordings I have.

There is no greater work, however it fits in anyone's canon of great works, I think once I knew this I would never have said otherwise.

I think videos help a bit (HVK) but the first thing that made me follow what many here seem to think is a rather diffuse structure was the Credo. You can't make an inherent "structure" out of Kyrie Eleison, it's however the composer puts the parts together, but the Credo is a narrative and when it gets to "et homo factus est..." I'm stunned into submission. The Agnus Dei does have a very discernible structure because of the eruption of war in the midst of the search for peace. (Kurt Moll, wouldn't you know it, on the Levine recording, wow). The end is elusive and I'm still hoping for an entirely satisfactory performance, but I think it's the work's flaw (blaspheme) and I'm willing to live with it.

yep, need more


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## binkley (Feb 2, 2013)

mparta said:


> The end is elusive and I'm still hoping for an entirely satisfactory performance, but I think it's the work's flaw (blaspheme) and I'm willing to live with it.


It's interesting that literally just before I saw your post, I read this in a review of the 2015 Harnoncourt CD:

"The timpani-haunted ambiguity of the closing pages is also truly visionary: so many conductors miss the vital questioning element in the Missa's ending; not Harnoncourt."

https://www.classical-music.com/reviews/nikolaus-harnoncourt-conducts-beethovens-missa-solemnis/

I have no strong opinion on the matter, just wonder if you are familiar the Harnoncourt recording.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Klemperer has always been fine with me. Greatest piece of music ever written and I thought this long before I heard James Levine express similarly.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

This work has really yet to click with me at all. I need a recording that does not sound loud and bombastic, has lyrical (not strained) solo singing, but which is not HIP and still has plenty of devotional weight. Normally I love Klemperer in pretty much anything, but his gigantist approach just seems a bit bloated to me here and I don’t really like his soloists. Any recommendations that meet the criteria above? From what I’ve read, Karajan ’66 or Bernstein ’78 might fit the bill.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I don't know a better recording than this one.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This work has really yet to click with me at all. I need a recording that does not sound loud and bombastic, has lyrical (not strained) solo singing, but which is not HIP and still has plenty of devotional weight. Normally I love Klemperer in pretty much anything, but his gigantist approach just seems a bit bloated to me here and I don't really like his soloists. Any recommendations that meet the criteria above? From what I've read, Karajan '66 or Bernstein '78 might fit the bill.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This work has really yet to click with me at all. I need a recording that does not sound loud and bombastic, has lyrical (not strained) solo singing, *but which is not HIP* and still has plenty of devotional weight. Normally I love Klemperer in pretty much anything, but his gigantist approach just seems a bit bloated to me here and I don't really like his soloists. Any recommendations that meet the criteria above? From what I've read, Karajan '66 or Bernstein '78 might fit the bill.


...................


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I performed it once as part of an amateur choir. Two weeks before performance I was sure we were not going to be able to do it correctly. We did to my amazement. It is written like most of Beethoven's work for the voice to stretch the singers beyond their capacity. It's a wonder to me how so many choirs seem to make this work appear easy to perform.

I've owned an enjoyed many performances. The more memorable ones: Bernstein with Concertgebouw, Gunther Wand's earliest recording, Ken Schermerhorn leading the Nashville Symphony. Josef Krips' version and Gardiner area also good on less exalted scales. There are so many great ones.

I only ever recall hearing one that was bad. I don't recall which recording -- I know it was on a discount label -- but the conductor lost control of everything and the choir and orchestra proceeded at different speeds some of the time. This happens in amateur productions all the time but I'd never before heard it on a recording.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

I love this work. Many great ones have already been quoted. Böhm and Guilini's renditions are worthy of attention too. They usually go under the radar somehow:

















Regards,

Vincula


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio - Well, I could suggest, again the "old man"/Toscanini in his recordings from 1939 or 1940. If you want UNSTRAINED vocal singing, there's the young fellow from Borlange, Sweden - Bjorling, and the other vocalists, from either version are very-fine, also. Toscanini, of course, is very LEAN, but never "mean", and did KNOW how to accomplish what could be, in this great work, IMO.


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This work has really yet to click with me at all. I need a recording that does not sound loud and bombastic, has lyrical (not strained) solo singing, but which is not HIP and still has plenty of devotional weight. Normally I love Klemperer in pretty much anything, but his gigantist approach just seems a bit bloated to me here and I don't really like his soloists. Any recommendations that meet the criteria above? From what I've read, Karajan '66 or Bernstein '78 might fit the bill.


I never really liked any recording especially, until I heard Steinberg on ICA. It's excellent.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Saxman - Thanks for that note, 'bout Steinberg (with Heather Harper & Julia Hamari) on ICA. It's available on a dub from Amazon, and I might buy it. Great to know that there's a recording that's little-known, but truly valuable.


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

89Koechel said:


> Saxman - Thanks for that note, 'bout Steinberg (with Heather Harper & Julia Hamari) on ICA. It's available on a dub from Amazon, and I might buy it. Great to know that there's a recording that's little-known, but truly valuable.


I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I find the missa here a bit fleeter at times and that makes a huge difference I think. Of course, the singing is good too, so no loss there compared to others. it's cleanly played as well.


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## carteianus (Jul 29, 2021)

Just resurrecting this old thread to say that I just listened to the Gardiner 1990 version for the first time, and it was indescribable. The clarity of the lines, the energy of the strings and chorus, the wide and yet clear dynamic s of the piece, the fierce conviction in the work, all this just bamboozled me to tears. It was many years since I had heard this work ( my usual recording was the 1965 Karajan) but this was way better. It is a shame that this sublime work is so difficult to be heard live, as not many orchestras and chorus dare to try it.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

My latest purchase is Missa Solemnis by Klemperer! Wonderful. Somehow it provided me new insight to Mahler´s 8th Symphony, also.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This work has really yet to click with me at all. I need a recording that does not sound loud and bombastic, has lyrical (not strained) solo singing, but which is not HIP and still has plenty of devotional weight. Normally I love Klemperer in pretty much anything, but his gigantist approach just seems a bit bloated to me here and I don’t really like his soloists. Any recommendations that meet the criteria above? From what I’ve read, Karajan ’66 or Bernstein ’78 might fit the bill.


Ah, wish I had seen this. I would recommend Jochum, very beautiful and devotional. Hard to find, but worth the effort.


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