# Why is art song genre so narrowly defined as vocal+piano?



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Yeah, why?

The very term "art song" implies it's superior to other songs, as if other songs are not true "art"...
Silly IMO.

There are so many artful, artistic, or define as you want songs, both in classical and popular domain.

So why restrict the term "art songs" only to songs where all you have is vocal and piano?

Why not include other instruments, orchestra, etc...

Why these songs aren't art songs?

1. Richard Strauss - Im Abendrot





2. SHOSTAKOVICH - SUITE ON VERSES OF MICHELANGELO BUONARROTTI OP.145a (CREATIVITY) CREATIVITY





3. Loraine Sims sings Kulp's Dickinson songs: Part 1





4. Frank Sinatra - Strangers in the Night





5. The Beatles- She's Leaving Home


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Probably because so many have been written for voice + piano.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ZJovicic said:


> Yeah, why?
> 
> The very term "art song" implies it's superior to other songs, as if other songs are not true "art"...
> Silly IMO.
> ...


Since no superiority is conferred by any such term then there is no issue.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Since no superiority is conferred by any such term then there is no issue.


Not so sure about it... "art song"... why don't call them piano songs? Or songs for vocals and piano? At least for people not in the know the term "art song" can be misleading.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Schubert wrote orchestral accompaniments for some of his songs.

The term art song derives from artful poetry of the day set to music by a composer.

Haydn set much of his friend Mrs. Hunter's music to song as did Schubert with Schiller and many other poets of his time.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is not a term I know or have used but I guess it communicates the idea that this is song in the classical music tradition but if that is the case then it clearly isn't always for voice and piano. There are so many songs and song cycles in the classical tradition that have voice (or voices) and orchestra or a chamber ensemble. It seems to be Zjovicik's issue that the term implies objective superiority over other forms of song but I do agree that all song is art - albeit not always good art.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> There are so many songs and song cycles in the classical tradition that have voice (or voices) and orchestra or a chamber ensemble. It seems to be Zjovicik's issue that the term implies objective superiority over other forms of song but I do agree that all song is art - albeit not always good art.


Yep that's my issue, why are vocal+piano songs "art songs" and vocal + orchestra are not?

Quote from Wikipedia:



> Songs with instruments besides piano (e.g., cello and piano) and/or other singers are referred to as "vocal chamber music", and are usually not considered art songs.[6]
> Songs originally written for voice and orchestra are called "orchestral songs" and are not usually considered art songs, unless their original version was for solo voice and piano.[7]


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ Wow. Without further explanation I feel that the sources cited are just wrong! It doesn't make sense really and some songs can be had in a variety of arrangements.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

This distinction (if it's valid - it's new to me) is not used in Dutch, German or French.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

VJovicic brings up an interesting perspective on Art Song. One of the more interesting and rewarding trends that developed during the maturation of rock was the almost inevitable (re)discovery of Romanticism by yet another generation, this mostly in the 1960s and 1970s. Romanticism, in its fascination with "faraway places with strange-sounding names": times long past, lost cultures, worlds to come, _Sehnsucht_, the bizarre, the "poetic", the Gothic. There was an explosion of now-classic songs--many of them great personal favorites--by groups and artists such as Cream, Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship, Led Zeppelin, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Mountain, Al Stewart, so many more. A few titles: _Those Were the Days, Wooden Ships, St. Charles, Kashmir, Cortez the Killer, Mr. Tambourine Man, Theme for an Imaginary Western, The Year of the Cat._ Everyone familiar with the period will think of many more examples of works and artists. Many of these songs have and can be covered by other than their originators, with excellent results. So, for me, this is another area where the separate worlds of classical music and classic rock come tangentially very close, as rock "Art Song" could and can stand on a footing very near in reward and enjoyment to that parallel world of, often, a man in a tuxedo singing _auf Deutsch_ and standing next to another man playing the piano. Again, strictly a matter of personal taste.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

I accept art song as intimate and poetic , of wit and refinement , conversational .


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Hmm. So, when guitarist André Fischer accompanies tenor Raphaël Favre through Schubert's _Winterreise_ we're no longer listening to art song? What are hearing then? And what are they playing? Just plain old German Lieder?









And heck, I considered this one of my favorite art song recordings. How wrong could I be?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_when guitarist André Fischer accompanies tenor Raphaël Favre through Schubert's Winterreise we're no longer listening to art song?_

Winterreise is a song cycle, a group of connected songs telling a story -- in this case about a man slowly going insane. Wilhelm Muller wrote the poetry but not independently as poems; he wrote them as part of Schubert's cycle. It was published in two halves with 12 songs first and 12 later.

Beethoven's An die ferne geliebte (to the distant beloved) is considered the first song cycle before Winterreise and Schubert's Die schöne Müllerin.

The art song typically arrives when a composer sets to music poetry that has already been independently written, as Haydn did with the Spirit's Song based on a poem of his friend. It is about a dead person who comes back to visit and hovers over beloved living persons.

I suppose if you want to call Winterreise an art song collection no one would object. But don't in any case get too hung up on terminology.

Here's some text I stole from bachtrack: "Before we go any further, let us demystify the jargon. 'Lieder is the German word for 'songs' and refers to poems set to music, or 'art songs'. The French call them 'mélodies', as opposed to 'chansons', which are popular or folk songs."

In Schubert's day he, the poets, singers, artists and other friends would gather at each other's homes and perform these songs to piano accompaniment. This event became known as Schubertiade where coffee, wine, spirits, pastries and the like were served afterward in the social gathering.

I've been to a few modern versions; they are fun. There is an intimacy at one of these gatherings you don't get in a big concert hall. The last one I attended was at a university in a practice room in the music building. It only seated about 20 people making it quite intimate.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

larold said:


> The art song typically arrives when a composer sets to music poetry that has already been independently written...


Yes, this. One of the best recent examples I've heard in this genre is by Brad Mehldau and Anne Sofie von Otter, a two-CD set called _Love Songs_. Both performers are at the top of their game here, and most of the material is outstanding. Well worth repeated listening.

https://www.amazon.com/Love-Songs-A...ldau+love+songs&qid=1551038491&s=music&sr=1-1


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This is really a discussion of a no-thing. "Art song" is just a conventional term, and not a very good one. I never use it myself, and would recommend that everyone just forget about it and identify songs as what they really are.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> This is really a discussion of a no-thing. "Art song" is just a conventional term, and not a very good one. I never use it myself, and would recommend that everyone just forget about it and identify songs as what they really are.


Yes. Thank you. It doesn't mean "the one and only kind of song that is artful." It's just a conventional way of saying "the garden variety with piano accompaniment" while wasting the least amount of breath possible.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It is as valid as symphony or concerto and is defined in musical dictionaries. Even Merriam-Webster says this:


art song noun 
Definition of art song: a usually through-composed song for solo voice and accompaniment — compare to a folk song


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

larold said:


> art song noun
> Definition of art song: a usually through-composed song for solo voice and accompaniment - compare to a folk song


Another definition of 'art song' might be: That type of song which the general public least wants to hear.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

larold said:


> It is as valid as symphony or concerto and is defined in musical dictionaries. Even Merriam-Webster says this:


You are correct. It is as valid as a symphony or concerto, although it is less specific as to form and structure than these terms. As for "usually through composed," they are quite often strophic too.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I've never considered the "art song" as being restricted in any sense by the instrument that may accompany it. Dowland's songs are art songs to me, and he was strictly a fretboard stylist. Or how about the songs of Machaut? His dits are like precursors to opera.

Or if I may use historical pop as an example:_Yummy, Yummy, Yummy_ by the Ohio Express is not an art song. _Mercy Street_ by Peter Gabriel is.


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## Arent (Mar 27, 2017)

I never thought the term "art song" excluded those with orchestral accompaniment, like Strauss' Four Last Songs. And I certainly never thought the term "art" in "art song" was a value judgment on how less artful other types of songs are. It's just a genre signifier, a type of song, in the Lieder tradition.


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