# Hélène Grimaud with Brahms, Strauss



## Daniel

A new interpret of Brahms' 1 st piano concert in my CD collection: Helene Grimaud. That is a wonderful recording! She has a very very sensible touch, you hear the piano sing, it is a so heartful play. 
She takes first movement very slow (nearly 24 min), other parts are standard tempi, but with a tendency to slowness. (14 min and 11 min)

Also on that CD: Strauss' Burleske for piano and orchestra. An amazing piece: One of Strauss' earlier works, but where his instrumentation has his individual and ingeniouse flow yet. Actually i think Strauss is one of the best intrumentators in history!
The timpani is so lovely in the Burleske


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## 009

> *That is a wonderful recording! She has a very very sensible touch, you hear the piano sing, it is a so heartful play.*


Then, it's a must have...off to shopping I go!  
Actually I have heard only Sviatoslav Richter, Claudio Arrau, Pollini etc.



> *Also on that CD: Strauss' Burleske for piano and orchestra. An amazing piece: One of Strauss' earlier works,*


I'm fascinated by yr listening list. I think u've a really unique list, it reflects on yr depth and understanding of works.



> *Actually i think Strauss is one of the best intrumentators in history!*


Yep, agree. I love what he does to the brass. Unlike many of his contemporaries, he really used em discerningly, esp. so for horns. 
Who do u think is the worst orchestrator? I will have to think that it's wagner...LOL :lol: Why am I always picking on him? I think it's 'ugly' when u have to shout to be listened to...That's Wagner for me.
I really don't like Schoenberg also. For me he is stark, excessively percussive and disturbing...and very 'obscure' colours?
I prefer Mahler. I love his 'colours'.
For me , masterful instrumentation means colours.


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## Daniel

Listened to the Grimauds Brahms several time, and i am still impressed, the only little "confusing" thing is, that she plays some chords broken, not to the same time than it is usually played, not often, but sometimes. 
The 3 rd movement of it is the best I ever heard. An interesting point: You know in the final of the 3 rd mov, after that charming trills, when it goes to the absolut climax, the orchestra plays the theme legato, never heard that played legato, all time staccato, but in score its legato....yes a Must. 


> *Who do u think is the worst orchestrator? I will have to think that it's wagner...LOL Why am I always picking on him? I think it's 'ugly' when u have to shout to be listened to...That's Wagner for me.
> I really don't like Schoenberg also. For me he is stark, excessively percussive and disturbing...and very 'obscure' colours?
> I prefer Mahler. I love his 'colours'.
> For me , masterful instrumentation means colours. *


The worst orchestrator? Huh not easy to say....i dont like Wagner nor Schönberg, his 12 tone music is so brain reflecting, that the main aim of music for me - enriching and moving your heart - is neglegated and even destroyed.
Mahler has a fascinating orchestration. With sometimes very easy, not to say primitive (positive meaning) means (1 symph for ex.) he instrumentates so ingeniouse that it becomes a wonder.


> *For me , masterful instrumentation means colours. *


Absolutely, a very good metaphor for paintings. I think this is one thing which all arts should have in common - colour - every art in its way.


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## Thomas

> *i dont like Wagner nor Schönberg, his 12 tone music is so brain reflecting, that the main aim of music for me - enriching and moving your heart - is neglegated and even destroyed.*


I really don't unsderstand what is it that people liked about 12 tone music, it needn't be atonal... but even if it's tonal, it really wouldn't sound nice. Is it a wrong belief that musicians must always be open-minded and like music of all genres? That's why people try to listen and accept such music. They even analyse and write essays on them. Man! :angry:


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## oistrach13

lol.. you're right, you're all right in fact.  

I seem to agree on everything you said, but I'm not so hard as you are on wagner, he has a very personalized texture, which some people like (or atleast tolerate), and other's can't stand. personally, I haven't heard much of his music, but the strange thing is that george bernard shaw adored him, infact, he wrote a book just about The Ring (it can be read online, I don't have the link now, but if you want it ask me).

what is even stranger is, I once put my father (a very very intelligent man, with absolutely no experience in classical music) through a whole CD of orchestral choruses. His favourites were the wagner bits. :blink: strange.

I read a large bit from the Shaw book, the way he analyses the Ring, it looks like the whole ring cycle is just an essay on philosophy, but instead of being written down, it is presented as a "complete art work" to quote richie (Mr W  )

yes Mahler does have wonderful colours, and has emotion usually (always a plus).

the other guy whom I addore in terms of orchestration, tone colour, etc is tschaikowsky, he creates this sort of atmosphere which is indescribable, wonderful musician.

I am afraid the helen grimaud CD is not available here . even if it were, it would be a little low in the priorities list, I have a ton of symphonies, lieder, chamberworks .... I need to buy, and frankly, my wallet is already stretched far enough. :lol:


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## 009

Hey...Talking about colours...I recently heard Dvorak's( Am I spelling him correctly?) Carnival Overture's recording performed by the London Phil...That has some amazing colours also... pretty overwhelming actually.
It's amasing how colour and vulgarity can work hand in hand so well. I love the percussion and brass instrumentation, esp. towards the end. Beethoven himself would have marvelled at the extended dominant preparation. The percussions clank like mad , and I love the off beat punctuations at the brass section towards the end... it really couldn't have been better... kinda reminds me of those typical janissary, turkish music...U know those type where the big bass drum go omm pa! omm pa! omm pa pa pa!...
Terrific! U really have got to hear the recording if u haven't the faintest idea what I'm rattling about.


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## Daniel

I don't know his carnival ouverture, but Dvoraks tone poems are another good example for colours...each poem illustrates a "story", mostly bohemian "mystic"...but it would be wrong to call it just programmatical music...Dvorak works with colours and forms themes to characterize, but the way how the material is developed is ingenious, a combinition of colour, characters and musical structure....Dvorak was missing to be called here also as wonderful instrumentator! Thanks DW! He is really worth to be mentioned...also in his symphonies and I am not talking only about his 8 th and 9 th...


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## 009

Yeah...his song cycle! :lol:
Cypress Trees? Have u heard the vocal version? Or u'll talking about the strings version? :huh:
Oh...yr talking about tone poems...as in symphonic poems? I've only heard a few. 
Op 107, 108 and 109. :lol: 

But much of his early music was quite wagnerian in style actually...but everybody was pretty much influenced by Wagner then, except probably Brahms during that bizzare 'Nationalistic' era.
I find his music really colourful, but unlike Mahler, Berlioz and etc. he has this very refined, natural element ( i'm not talking about his folk influences) ...but his pastoral elements ... and his harmonic skill and mastery of form is B) ! People always talk about Dvorak as a wonderful orchestrator, but his harmony, counterpoint and form is really something to note. And this guy really has Melodies! Beautiful melodies!!!
He's Special. He's colourful not only because of his orchestration, but his ability to open new dimensions through harmonies. Wow!  
Dvorak is really some Music Intellect! He knows his tools. :lol:


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## 009

> *I read a large bit from the Shaw book, the way he analyses the Ring, it looks like the whole ring cycle is just an essay on philosophy, but instead of being written down, it is presented as a "complete art work" to quote richie (Mr W )
> *


I really don't like Wagner :angry: ...not only his music, but his whole personal self.
I think u don't need to shout to be heard...u know what I mean? :lol: 
And I refused myself to like his opera particularly because of their story lines. They have been created to put women down. Women are always cast as sinners, tempters, low-caste in his operas. I think this is absurd.
And what kind of man will marry your good friend's daughter? The fact that he married Liszt's daughter just makes him :mellow: And yet he himself was a kept man :blink: ...and an active 'revolutionist' without knowing what a revolution was at all. He's just a vile bloke to me. Too bad he writes music and people pay to hear it. :huh: 
Sorry, all wagnerian fans out there. No hard feelings. Just sharing some truths about his anti-woman librettos.


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## baroque flute

I totally agree with your opinion of Wagner, DW! Of course there is more to it; for just one thing, he also hated Jews--in fact Hitler was greatly influenced by Wagner's writings (Wagner's and Henry Ford's). That was one reason he allowed Wagner to be performed even when he did not allow other German composers' works. Wagner was a totally sick, immoral man all the way around. I don't like his music much more than I like him, either.


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## 009

> *Wagner was a totally sick, immoral man all the way around. I don't like his music much more than I like him, either.*


Finally!!! :lol:


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## 009

> *for just one thing, he also hated Jews*


I think he's the only anti-semistic composer...any more other than him? :huh: 
It's one thing to be totally sick and immoral, but persecuting the Jews is totally EVIL. :angry:


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## Daniel

> _Originally posted by DW_@Sep 30 2004, 02:30 PM
> *Yeah...his song cycle! :lol:
> Cypress Trees? Have u heard the vocal version? Or u'll talking about the strings version? :huh:
> Oh...yr talking about tone poems...as in symphonic poems? I've only heard a few.
> Op 107, 108 and 109. :lol:
> 
> But much of his early music was quite wagnerian in style actually...but everybody was pretty much influenced by Wagner then, except probably Brahms during that bizzare 'Nationalistic' era.
> I find his music really colourful, but unlike Mahler, Berlioz and etc. he has this very refined, natural element ( i'm not talking about his folk influences) ...but his pastoral elements ... and his harmonic skill and mastery of form is B) ! People always talk about Dvorak as a wonderful orchestrator, but his harmony, counterpoint and form is really something to note. And this guy really has Melodies! Beautiful melodies!!!
> He's Special. He's colourful not only because of his orchestration, but his ability to open new dimensions through harmonies. Wow!
> Dvorak is really some Music Intellect! He knows his tools. :lol:
> [snapback]2199[/snapback]​*


Yes symphonic poems! Totally agree you!!!


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## Daniel

...and about Wagner, I totally agree with you both, one other thing: he wrote pamphlets against Mendelssohn


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## 009

> * he wrote pamphlets against Mendelssohn *


Wow...  I never knew that. All I knew was that he and List was very much against Brahms... I never knew that he disliked Mendelssohn also. :angry: 
But why? Is it becaz Mendelssohn was a Romantic Conservative? As in he adored Beethoven and the classical structure( just like Brahms)? :huh:


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## Daniel

Firstly Wagner adored Mendelssohn because of his genius. Then he went over to envy him, and then he wrote antisemitic scripts against Mendelssohn and Jewish in the music. Mendelssohn was originally Jewish but converted to Protestantism as he was child. Wagner was one of the first ones who proclamated the so silly prejudges about Mendelssohn as "smooth", "superficial" composer which got the climax in Nationalistic policy and even other books like "The problem Mendelssohn".
- so stupic! 

But this prejudges aren't away till now, you can still feel them in relation with Mendelssohn.


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## godzillaviolist

*Burleske and orchestrators*

I love the Strauss Berleske! It's my favorite piano peice. I used to have the recording with Don Quixote and then Burleske on it. It was with the Chicago orchestra. I can't remember who the conductor was though. 
It's interesting to campare the Strauss' Burleske to Bax's burlesque and other scherzo-like piano peices.
I don't think any of the major composers were terrible orchestrators. 
Schoenberg is uncreative in his orchestration, but not bad. Of the second Veinnese school, Webern was, in my view, the best orchestrator. I don't like his music, but his use of the orchestra is superb and in perfect taste. Some of his peices are quite emotional; not warm emotion, but beautifull statements of lonelyness. 
Wagner was a great orchestrator. I hate his music, and he wasn't a nice person, but his use of the orchestra is good. Don't forget that his music undoubtedly influenced Strauss' style.
godzilla


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## godzillaviolist

*Meyerbeer*

Here is why I think Wagner hated Jews: Meyerbeer.
If you listen to a lot of Meyerbeer you'll hear- Wagner. But Wagner 40 years before Wagner started writing!  Meyerbeer sounds like a cross between Bel canto and Wagnerian music drama. Wagnerian music drama didn't appear out of nothing. Meyerbeer was the immediate precursor. Now the best way to kill a dead rival's reputation is to slander him!
Just a theory.


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## Daniel

That could be also the reason with his Pamphlets against Mendelssohn. He did adore him as he was younger, maybe he envied him.


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## Psychokeys

*zimerman is the real Brahmsian*

hi my friend.Just listen to Krystian Zimerman's Brahms recordings...There is no other interpreter of Brahms...He shows tremendous strength,agility and and and........Serious....
i would like to have yr opinion


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## Psychokeys

*Zimerman 4ever in brahms*

hi my friend.Im really glad u agree that Zimerman is the real Brahmsian.I have all his cds.You can download them from emule.IO hope you know that programm.keep in touch


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## Guest

Wow, from praising Hélène to slamming Arnold. That's the extremest branching off I've seen in a thread so far. Or mostest extremest, I'm not sure...

Hélène Grimaud is so good, her recording of Brahms 2nd piano sonata is even better than Sviatoslav Richter's. And Richter was the best of the best. (I mean just generally, not for the Brahms second.) 

I wish she'd play some Schoenberg, though. Or Stockhausen. The Klavierstück Nr. 9. Mmmmm. That one's perfect for her.

(By the way, guys, how long has it been since you last heard some Schoenberg? He's not at all like you describe. I don't doubt that he have seemed that way to you at some point, but still. I just listened to Variations again recently: lush, romantic, pretty. Very pretty piece. And colorful orchestration? Yes indeed.)


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