# Berlioz's orchestral works



## Almaviva

I'm mostly an opera fan, and the overwhelming majority of my posts in Talk Classical are in the Opera subforum.

Based on my *extreme* admiration for Berlioz's four operas - _Les Troyens, La Damnation de Faust _(yes, I'm definitely counting this one as an opera)_, Benvenuto Cellini, _and _Béatrice et Bénédict, _I spent some time today listening to some of his orchestral works.

Here is what I listened to:

The spectacular _Symphonie Fantastique; _the overtures _Le Carnival Romain _and_ Le Corsaire; _the concertante symphony _Harold in Italie, _and the very impressive _Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale._

I'm stunned. These are all extremely beautiful works.

I wonder why Berlioz is somewhat underrated. Yes, he had lots of personal issues that hindered him (chronic depression), and was a victim of the fashion while he was alive, with rather less brilliant contemporaries getting the upper hand over him; he could have produced a lot more - but what he did compose is absolutely first rate.

In terms of opera, he's four out of four - 100% of his production is first class, even though it is so limited in numbers. Many other great opera composers were allowed some duds in their careers, while Berlioz got it right from the very first one, and composed only four, but all four very exquisite, and one of them - _Les Troyens _- in my opinion belongs in the top 10 of all times.

In terms of orchestral works, there wasn't a single note that I didn't like in my exploration of today.

I think he deserves a place among the greatest opera composers (like Wagner, Verdi, Mozart), and while I'm less familiar with his other works, from the sample today I get that he should be counted among the greatest symphonic composers as well.

Opinions?


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## Aramis

Not really underrated. His Symphonie Fantastique is among most popular romantic symphonies. 

But yes, maybe he is kind of "one hit wonder" and doesn't seem to have a lot of really devoted lovers beside popularity and widely acknowledged historical importance of this symphony. 

Personally I can call myself devoted Berlioz lover and listener. I own solid number of recordings, I've readed his biography - my man, one of composers that I really adore as artists in general, he fought for his ideas and was crazy. Not to mention that he had awesome hair. I regret I can't see him conducting - they say that he was famous for spontaneous and energetic conducting and his huge redhead doubled stunning effect. 

Besides works you mentioned you should hear Les Nuits d'Ete (von Otter, Levine)and other songs + get complete set of his overtures. Uhm, and Romeo et Juliet. EEEEEEEEEE! AND "TRISTA" - osom szit.

By the way, some time ago we had thread about parrels in music and other arts and someone said "Berlioz - Delacroix". Good point it was. Berlioz is romantic master of colour, just like Delacroix was master of colour but still was more romantic than impressionist. Really, all those modern dudes that consider themselves as masters of orchestral colour should kneel and suck Berlioz's voko-koko.


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## Almaviva

Aramis said:


> and suck Berlioz's voko-koko.


LOL, your posts are always awesome, Aramis!:tiphat:
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look for the works you've mentioned.


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## elgar's ghost

A fantastic composer - the fact that he was so neglected is a sad reflection on the prevailing tastes of the times rather than any limitations of his own - his works appeared to be too difficult and heavy-duty for Parisian audiences whose idea of profundity were operas by the likes of Daniel Auber and Adolphe Adam (not that I've got anything against these composers myself). He was for me Beethoven's spiritual successor when it came to providing great orchestral works of high specific gravity during that Romantic orchestral 'black hole' of the 1830's/40s.


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## Ukko

elgar's ghost said:


> He was for me Beethoven's spiritual successor when it came to providing great orchestral works of high specific gravity during that Romantic orchestral 'black hole' of the 1830's/40s.


Well shucks, I have to agree. Mendelssohn's symphonies are good placeholders, But Berlioz went forward. His great orchestral works include Les Troyens, because I consider the arias to be part of the orchestration, solo runs by human instruments.


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## Sid James

I'd also add the oratorio _L'Enfance du Christ _- a less intense and more contemplative work, perhaps unusual for Berlioz.

I'm also a huge fan, I saw the _Symphonie Fantastique _earlier in the year, and although it was done by a semi-professional orchestra in a hall with very average acoustics, they did a good job and the work itself just shone through. I'm usually no opera fan, but his _Damnation of Faust _(more like a concert opera perhaps) grabs me every time I hear it on cd.

It is true that he was shunned by the establishment, and perhaps more loved abroad than at home. He only worked in France as a guest conductor (can you believe it - someone at the level of Mahler or Bernstein treated like this?). Belatedly, the French government gave him the Legion of Honour at the end of his life.

I missed a live performance here in Sydney of _Les nuits d'Ete_. I'm sure people are aware here that it was the first ever song-cycle in the French language. His innovations truly acted as benchmarks for future generations of French composers. Perhaps the comparison to Beethoven in his own time and place is quite apt? I am also amazed that Berlioz only played the guitar and flute proficiently, and yet he was able to revolutionise the use of the orchestra. Just astounding!...


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## elgar's ghost

Hilltroll72 said:


> Well shucks, I have to agree. Mendelssohn's symphonies are good placeholders, But Berlioz went forward.


From that time I loved Mendelssohn's orchestral music but whenever I want to listen to some seriously heroic Romanticism with a touch of the Gothic then Berlioz is the main man.


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## Aramis

> I am also amazed that Berlioz only played the guitar and flute proficiently, and yet he was able to revolutionise the use of the orchestra. Just astounding!...


I don't understand what's so strange about it. Were other great masters of orchestration all virtuosos of every orchestral instrument, from violin to tuba? Most of them knew only thing or two about the piano but never really became real pianists (Mahler, Wagner). As far as I understand it the best musical performing profession for someone who wants to be a symphonist is to be conductor, just like violin composers get better if they play violin, the symphonist gets better if he "plays" orchestra. And Berlioz played orchestra (and also sung in choir, btw).


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## Sid James

Aramis said:


> ...As far as I understand it the best musical performing profession for someone who wants to be a symphonist is to be conductor, just like violin composers get better if they play violin, the symphonist gets better if he "plays" orchestra. And Berlioz played orchestra (and also sung in choir, btw).


Yes, Aramis, you make some good points there...


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## Guest

_Romeo et Juliette
Tristia_ (the best one is coupled with Harold in Italy--Philips, with Davis)
_Te Deum
Requiem_

In other words, aside from _Reverie et Caprice_ and a few trifling choral pieces, there's really not a dud in the lot for this composer.

If you can find the cantatas disc that Denon put out a number of years ago, with Jean Fournet and a couple of Dutch groups, that one is a sweet sweet disc. The performance of La Mort d'Orphee is worth the price of admission alone. And there are three other fine pieces, beautifully performed.

Amazon has this disc as an mp3 download. I guess that's better than nothing. (I guess that's better than Plasson's disc, even.)


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## World Violist

I've just begun an exploration of Berlioz. It's rather a change for me, coming from Bach, Sibelius, Brahms, Sibelius, and Norgard, all of which are predominantly contemplative composers, to be dragged into Berlioz's fiery, explosive sound-world, and I'm still not entirely sure what I think about him. Symphonie Fantastique, as has been mentioned, is utterly spectacular and is a very dramatically involving symphony. I'm still not sure, though, about Harold in Italy (just because I play viola doesn't mean I have to like it, after all). I think I'll be listening to some Berlioz tonight... I'll go off what's been mentioned here.


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## Almaviva

some guy said:


> _Romeo et Juliette_
> _Tristia_ (the best one is coupled with Harold in Italy--Philips, with Davis)
> _Te Deum_
> _Requiem_
> 
> In other words, aside from _Reverie et Caprice_ and a few trifling choral pieces, there's really not a dud in the lot for this composer.
> 
> If you can find the cantatas disc that Denon put out a number of years ago, with Jean Fournet and a couple of Dutch groups, that one is a sweet sweet disc. The performance of La Mort d'Orphee is worth the price of admission alone. And there are three other fine pieces, beautifully performed.
> 
> Amazon has this disc as an mp3 download. I guess that's better than nothing. (I guess that's better than Plasson's disc, even.)


Nice recommendations, thanks!


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## Almaviva

World Violist said:


> I've just begun an exploration of Berlioz. It's rather a change for me, coming from Bach, Sibelius, Brahms, Sibelius, and Norgard, all of which are predominantly contemplative composers, to be dragged into Berlioz's fiery, explosive sound-world, and I'm still not entirely sure what I think about him. Symphonie Fantastique, as has been mentioned, is utterly spectacular and is a very dramatically involving symphony. I'm still not sure, though, about Harold in Italy (just because I play viola doesn't mean I have to like it, after all). I think I'll be listening to some Berlioz tonight... I'll go off what's been mentioned here.


Hehehe, I heard a joke about music for viola:

"What's the longest viola joke?"
"Harold in Italy":lol:

But I like it.


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## Machiavel

IMHO, he is the composer with the greatest range of symphonies. His Fantastica sinfonia in 5 mov, Harold in Italy in 4 mov with an obbliggato alto who serve the purpose of an observer of the scenery describe in the 4 mov. Then his dramatic sinfonia in 7 mov who can be seen as 3 cantata also ; one with chorals , the second fully instrumental and the last full operatic. Then his grand sinfonia funeral and Triomphant in 3 mov.

Also his drmatic legend The damnation of faust(dedicated to LIszt who dedicated his faut sym to berlioz in return) which is and look more like a symphony in struture. 

The you got his requiem: fear, wrath darker, andhis te deum which is morelight in mood and feeling; a bit like the adoration and glorification of God.

His troyen is for me only second to the ring of wagner

2 overture his corsair and his roman carival who is the second overture to his bevenuto cellini who was a disaster at his opening.

I heard the joke about harold being a viola concerto but it is a symphony in structure . remember he was really programmatic. As soon as I put in my head like I said previously that the viola is an observer of the 4 mov, I began to love it instantly.

A litle quote from what berlioz said about others : ( There is only one god, Bach! and his prophet is Mendelssohn!)


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## Falstaft

Inconsistent though it may be, I highly recommend Berlioz's weirdly unknown "sequel" to Fantastique, the generic oddity _Lélio_. Certainly worth it for the rousing "Brigand's Chorus," although I think Liszt's piano+orchestra fantasy on Berlioz's melody is the best thing to come out of _Lélio_.


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## Almaviva

Machiavel said:


> His troyen is for me only second to the ring of wagner


My opinion exactly. When we were discussing the top 10 operas for the TC 100 Top-Recommended Operas thread, I listed _Les Troyens_ as the second best opera ever, only secong to Wagner's Ring. Everybody was shocked. Still, I gathered enough support to get it voted in the top 5. Now it sits gloriously as the 5th top-recommended opera by the Talk Classical membership, which given how much it is underestimated and poorly known to the point that it is rarely quoted in other lists, was a small achievement.

Lately I've been going to battle for _La Damnation de Faust_, without the same success. I have proposed it several times and it hasn't made the top 50, now I'm insisting again for a place in the 51-60 bracket. By the way, I think that _La Damnation de Faust _is fine in concert form, but is even more interesting when staged as an opera.


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## Elgarian

_Symphonie Fantastique_ was the first piece of classical music that impinged on me, at the age of 16. It made such an impact that I went out straight away and bought an LP of it - the first classical music record I'd ever bought. Gosh I played the grooves flat on that record, and I suppose I overdid it a bit - there was a long gap afterwards when I left it alone. But last year I bought Immerseel's interesting period instrument version, with Anima Eterna:










This presented the piece in a different light and gave it a freshness that I found fascinating. He uses pianos instead of bells (as prescribed at some point by Berlioz I understand - I forget the details), and that doesn't quite work for me; but otherwise, a thoroughly enjoyable fresh take on the old warhorse and well worth a listen.


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## Guest

Elgarian said:


> _Symphonie Fantastique_ was the first piece of classical music that impinged on me, at the age of 16. It made such an impact that I went out straight away and bought an LP of it - the first classical music record I'd ever bought. Gosh I played the grooves flat on that record, and I suppose I overdid it a bit - there was a long gap afterwards when I left it alone. But last year I bought Immerseel's interesting period instrument version, with Anima Eterna:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This presented the piece in a different light and gave it a freshness that I found fascinating. He uses pianos instead of bells (as prescribed at some point by Berlioz I understand - I forget the details), and that doesn't quite work for me; but otherwise, a thoroughly enjoyable fresh take on the old warhorse and well worth a listen.


Yes, I have this recording as well. An interesting interpretation, but not my favorite. I have a few different recordings of the Symphonie Fantastique - Gardiner, Colin Davis, Immerseel, Tilson Thomas. I really enjoy the Tilson Thomas recording, and it is paired with Leilo.


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