# Unconventional Pianists



## Roger Knox

By "Unconventional Pianists" I mean solo pianists whose presentation, style, and interpretations are or were noticeably different from the conventional, as you perceive it. I' referring to the pianist not the repertoire -- a performer may play avant-garde music without being unconventional in manner of performance. Please do not ridicule the artist.

I'll start with Glenn Gould -- among other things unusual energy and articulation, tempo choices, divergences from the score, mannerisms. To me he was in his own world much of the time.


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## Mandryka

Andrea Newmann


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## Allegro Con Brio

Andras Schiff - Plays in a very “clipped,” “frilly” manner that some people can’t stand. Personally I like it quite a bit in Bach; it sounds like he is trying to imitate the mannerisms of a harpsichord on the piano.

Alfred Cortot - His style will never be matched, and those in his school like Friedman and Paderewski are from a very far-off generation. Huge, swooning rubato that is not concerned with continuity but spontaneity. Fistfuls of missed notes that would be ridiculed by any self-respecting pianist today. But he was a mad genius on the keys.

Michelangeli - You can always tell when he is playing. Unremittingly sober and serious with a very heavy touch, as if a grizzly bear were playing - but what virtuosity when he felt like it (that live Grieg concerto is unbelievable).

Claudio Arrau - Especially in his later years. He liked rich, sonorous instruments and played everything slowly, searchingly, penetratingly. He had a habit of “lingering” on notes within phrases like he was reluctant to move on.

Pogorelich - The most idiosyncratic pianist of the modern generation, equally capable of making your jaw drop (Schumann Toccata and Gaspard de la Nuit) and causing head-scratching reactions (his Brahms pieces and Ravel Valses).

Rachmaninoff - No pedal whatsoever because he could reach a thirteenth. Lightning fingerwork with a quicksilver, feathery light touch. Shame we don’t have more records from him.

There are more but those are what come to mind. I’m getting into others - I recently heard Maria Yudina’s Goldberg Variations and it’s quite unlike anything else; I’m sure the rest of what she’s done is also worth hearing but it’s not much available on streaming.


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## SearsPoncho

Alfred Cortot

Sviatoslav Richter

Ivo Pogorelich

**I forgot Vladimir Horowitz, the one pianist you will never mistake for another.


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## Flamme




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## Roger Knox

SearsPoncho said:


> **I forgot Vladimir Horowitz, the one pianist you will never mistake for another.


Because so many people thought Horowitz was the greatest, period, the idiosyncratic aspects of his playing were sometimes overlooked. As a pianist I never tried to play anything like Horowitz (even if I could have!), and never recommended his style to others. It wasn't his virtuosity that I questioned but the extreme stylistic effects and hyper quality, especially in concerts that to be sure were electrifying. Yet I continue to admire him as a great artist, just not the greatest.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’m not much of a Horowitz fan, finding his playing to be mostly superficial rather than insightful. I think his earlier recordings are where his best stuff lies. There’s a recording of him doing the Rachmaninoff 3rd with Barbirolli and the NYPO that has absolutely terrible sound quality, but has, from a purely technical standpoint, some of the finest piano playing ever captured on record.


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## Rogerx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm not much of a Horowitz fan, finding his playing to be mostly superficial rather than insightful. I think his earlier recordings are where his best stuff lies. There's a recording of him doing the Rachmaninoff 3rd with Barbirolli and the NYPO that has absolutely terrible sound quality, but has, f_rom a purely technical standpoint, some of the finest piano playing ever captured on record_.


I do agree with you except from the last sentence .


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## Highwayman

Martha Argerich - Other than seeking for ridiculously fast tempi most of the time I think she has a distinctive way of phrasing which may sound flawed or impatient at instances but I think it is intentional and functions as a tribute to her mainland. Her piano playing sounds to me like English spoken in an exotic Hispanic accent. I think it`s an unconventional approach because I do not hear anything similar from her compatriots like Barenboim or pianists coming from similar backgrounds like Arrau and Bolet.


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## Handelian

Unfortunately there seems to be a thing these days that when the pianist plays with character they are considered idiosyncratic. Probably a product of the recording age where recordings had to be ‘safe’ to be recommended by critics. When I hear a pianist I want to hear an individual voice interpreting the music as long as it’s within reasonable bounds and faithful to the composer. Some of Gould’s later recordings went from idiosyncratic to outrageous as if he was deliberately trying to offend people. That is not what good musicianship is about. It was a pity because at his best he was a most insightful player


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## Allegro Con Brio

Highwayman said:


> Martha Argerich - Other than seeking for ridiculously fast tempi most of the time I think she has a distinctive way of phrasing which may sound flawed or impatient at instances but I think it is intentional and functions as a tribute to her mainland. Her piano playing sounds to me like English spoken in an exotic Hispanic accent. I think it`s an unconventional approach because I do not hear anything similar from her compatriots like Barenboim or pianists coming from similar backgrounds like Arrau and Bolet.


This is a really insightful comment. I was going to put Argerich on my shortlist, but I thought it was already long enough. Yes, I've always noticed her very peculiar dynamic approach to phrasing. I would say it's about the exact opposite of late Arrau - where he would linger over certain notes like he wanted to savor their essence or the keys were sticky, Argerich always surges ahead trying to make the phrases as protean as possible. At her best she is certainly breathtaking with a remarkable passion and precision on the keys. Other times she just sounds like a show-off in the Horowitz mold.


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## Roger Knox

Then there are the historical pianists who really were, or became, showmen. I am thinking of Vladimir de Pachmann (1848-1933) as described by Harold C. Schonberg in _The Great Pianists_. De Pachmann was a Chopin specialist who apparently could play with an amazingly controlled pianissimo, but was best known for making speeches to the audience and clowning at the keyboard. Wrote George Bernard Shaw: "Mr. Vladimir de Pachmann gave his well-known pantomimic performance, with accompaniments by Chopin." He was very short and did a routine where after fiddling with the height of the piano bench, he brought out a phone book to sit on, was still not satisfied, tore a page out of the phone book and, beaming, proceeded to play. I saw Victor Borge do the same bit at one of his wonderful shows. Maybe that was de Pachmann's gift to the world; at any rate his recordings were poor. But it makes me wonder if the concert pianist's long years of stress and insecurity led to his instability. A very different case is the life of the great Josef Hofmann, who as a stunning prodigy won unanimous praise but was overworked and exploited. Over the years he maintained and enhanced his spontaneous style and tremendous technique, but he developed a drinking problem and became inconsistent in some of the few of concerts he gave. Nevertheless, today his recordings are treasured. How concert pianists play cannot be separated from what happens in their lives.


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## RICK RIEKERT

"As a player, programmer, and stage personality, there was no one else like *Peter Serkin*. He put his career on hold to find spiritual enlightenment, and simultaneously embraced the period-instrument and avant-garde repertoire, with an originality of interpretation that was seen by some as an act of artistic rebellion. The scion of an illustrious family of old-world musicians - his father was pianist and Curtis teacher/director Rudolf Serkin, his grandfather violinist Adolf Busch - Mr. Serkin was decidedly of the new world … In classical music's atmosphere of strict performance tradition and unforgiving proscription, Mr. Serkin offered reality-bending experiences. In the pianist's last recital here, at the Kimmel in January 2019, this critic found Mr. Serkin to be a performer "who likes to rearrange time and space around him." (Peter Dobrin, The Philadelphia Inquirer)


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## Flamme

The speed.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> "As a player, programmer, and stage personality, there was no one else like *Peter Serkin*. He put his career on hold to find spiritual enlightenment, and simultaneously embraced the period-instrument and avant-garde repertoire, with an originality of interpretation that was seen by some as an act of artistic rebellion. The scion of an illustrious family of old-world musicians - his father was pianist and Curtis teacher/director Rudolf Serkin, his grandfather violinist Adolf Busch - Mr. Serkin was decidedly of the new world … In classical music's atmosphere of strict performance tradition and unforgiving proscription, Mr. Serkin offered reality-bending experiences. In the pianist's last recital here, at the Kimmel in January 2019, this critic found Mr. Serkin to be a performer "who likes to rearrange time and space around him." (Peter Dobrin, The Philadelphia Inquirer)


Have you heard his final recordings, the C P E Bach? There are samples on YouTube but the sound is not so good, so so far I've resisted the temptation to buy the set.


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## Mandryka




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## Mandryka




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## Mandryka




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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Have you heard his final recordings, the C P E Bach? There are samples on YouTube but the sound is not so good, so so far I've resisted the temptation to buy the set.


The playing is brilliant, and if C.P.E. Bach is your cup of tea I wouldn't let the perhaps less than ideal recording quality stand in your way.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The playing is brilliant, and if C.P.E. Bach is your cup of tea I wouldn't let the perhaps less than ideal recording quality stand in your way.


You might like this Rick, I do


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> You might like this Rick, I do


Mandryka, thanks so much for bringing this to my attention. Such vital music making is a joy to hear.

Serkin's chamber group Tashi stimulated my interest in classical music back when the world was young. They performed Messiaen's _Quatuor pour la fin du temps _at a largely rock music venue (the Bottom Line club) in NYC in the 70s, an event which caused quite a stir at the time.


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## Heliogabo

One of the less conventional pianists was undoubtedly Friedrich Gulda. One of the few, besides, that could master in the piano the languages of jazz and classical. 
This documentary portrays very well his wide originality and scant condescension to the canons of the interpretation.


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## mparta

There are more but those are what come to mind. I'm getting into others - I recently heard Maria Yudina's Goldberg Variations and it's quite unlike anything else; I'm sure the rest of what she's done is also worth hearing but it's not much available on streaming.[/QUOTE]

Maria Yudina is worth the effort. There is a big cheap box and there are several versions of her recordings on an individual basis. You get the sense of the inwardness, the absolutely total lack of display. Her Schubert D 960, the last big Bflat sonata, is breathholding. I also think these poor Russian pianists probably had to play on instruments that were recycled from tank parts, but anyone who wants a thrill not related to Tea for Two (I love Yuja Wang but she should stop playing crap) should hear this woman.


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## joen_cph

Ignaz Friedman: 
Chopin. What freshness ...





Anatol Ugorski:
The final Davidsbündlertänze section. A more pensive finale ...





Cyprien Katsaris, 
Chopin Sonata 2 finale - for a lot of pianists, this movement becomes a mess. Not for him.


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## arthro

I read somewhere that Richter (maybe) passed a disparaging comment on Yudina's playing. But I suppose all uncoventional pianists are all going to be hit that way. 

Anyhow, by its nature, unconventionality is hard to define, as it can be pretty diverse. Gabriela Montero's improvisation requests?


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## Roger Knox

arthro said:


> Anyhow, by its nature, unconventionality is hard to define, as it can be pretty diverse. Gabriela Montero's improvisation requests?


Improvisation requests were, ironically, quite conventional in the 18th and early 19th century. Not sure quite when they became unusual. But anyway, if the pianist can do it, why not?


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## mparta

arthro said:


> I read somewhere that Richter (maybe) passed a disparaging comment on Yudina's playing. But I suppose all uncoventional pianists are all going to be hit that way.
> 
> Anyhow, by its nature, unconventionality is hard to define, as it can be pretty diverse. Gabriela Montero's improvisation requests?


I think they probably sniped at each other. He criticized the Schubert that I praised, and I don't like his Schubert. She was free with her playing in a way he was not. I know his immense reputation, and his ability to sit and just do anything with insouciance is amazing, but when I see the video performances of him playing Beethoven, for instance, I just think he pummels the piano and I see no virtue to it at all.

She is a pianist of her own, it's never an issue of textual fidelity or virtuosity, she makes her own music. I find it immensely powerful and really great pianism and music making. Not many like her.

others have been mentioned. There's a stupid quote of Barenboim saying Cortot put the opium back in Chopin, or something like that. Only it's substantially less stupid when you hear his Chopin preludes from 1955, a live take. Wow, opium and some more, Chopin as the heir to Baudelaire.









I've been curious about Maria Grinberg, never having heard her, big reputation for Beethoven. Another for whom there exists a big box (cheap maybe) and multiple versions of individual works. Anyone know her?


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## RICK RIEKERT

arthro said:


> I read somewhere that Richter (maybe) passed a disparaging comment on Yudina's playing. But I suppose all uncoventional pianists are all going to be hit that way.


Here's an entertaining excerpt from Richter's notebooks:

"Maria Veniaminovna Yudina was a monstre sacré. I knew her, but only from afar - it has to be said that she was so odd that everyone avoided her. For her own part, she showed herself somewhat suspicious and critical of me. She said of me: 'Richter? Hmm… As a pianist, he's good for Rachmaninoff.'

From her lips, that wasn't a compliment, even though she herself occasionally played Rachmaninoff. She had graduated from the Petrograd Conservatory in the early twenties, at the same time as Vladimir Sofronitsky - a giant of a man who played Schumann and Debussy magnificently and Scriabin like nobody else. By the end of her life Yudina was an outrageous figure, a sort of Clytemnestra, always dressed in black and wearing sneakers for her concerts. She was immensely talented and a keen advocate of the music of her own time: she played Stravinsky, whom she loved, Hindemith, Krenek and Bartók at a time when these composers were not only unknown in the Soviet Union but effectively banned. And when she played Romantic music, it was impressive - except that she didn't play what was written. Liszt's Weinen und Klagen was phenomenal, but Schubert's B-flat major Sonata, while arresting as an interpretation, was the exact opposite of what it should have been, and I remember a performance of the Second Chopin Nocturne that was so heroic that it no longer sounded like a piano but a trumpet. It was no longer Schubert or Chopin, but Yudina.

During the war she had given The Well-Tempered Clavier at a splendid concert, even if she polished off the contemplative Prelude in B-flat minor from Book Two at a constant fortissimo. At the end of the concert, Neuhaus, whom I was accompanying, went to congratulate her in her dressing-room.

'But, Maria Veniaminovna,' he asked her, 'why did you play the B-flat minor Prelude in such a dramatic way?'

'Because we are at war!'

It was typical of Yudina. 'We're at war!' She absolutely had to bring the war into Bach.

She also used to wander around with a revolver, which she would show to all and sundry. It really was a bit much. She used to say: 'Hold this thing for me, but be careful, it's loaded.'

One day she developed a crush on someone who didn't return her advances. One can understand why; he must have been terrified of her. And so she challenged him to a duel.

By the end of her concerts I always used to have a headache. She subjected her audiences to such a degree of intensity, an incredible intensity! And then there was her way of coming onstage; you had the impression she was walking through the rain. And she carried a crucifix and crossed herself before launching into the first note. I've nothing against this, but in Soviet Russia, at that time!…

Of course, she cared for the poor, took them in and lived like a tramp herself. An eccentric woman and an extraordinary artist, but someone who always felt the need to invent things… Even so, I played at her funeral. Rachmaninoff."


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## mparta

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Here's an entertaining excerpt from Richter's notebooks:
> 
> "Maria Veniaminovna Yudina was a monstre sacré. I knew her, but only from afar - it has to be said that she was so odd that everyone avoided her. For her own part, she showed herself somewhat suspicious and critical of me. She said of me: 'Richter? Hmm… As a pianist, he's good for Rachmaninoff.'
> 
> From her lips, that wasn't a compliment, even though she herself occasionally played Rachmaninoff. She had graduated from the Petrograd Conservatory in the early twenties, at the same time as Vladimir Sofronitsky - a giant of a man who played Schumann and Debussy magnificently and Scriabin like nobody else. By the end of her life Yudina was an outrageous figure, a sort of Clytemnestra, always dressed in black and wearing sneakers for her concerts. She was immensely talented and a keen advocate of the music of her own time: she played Stravinsky, whom she loved, Hindemith, Krenek and Bartók at a time when these composers were not only unknown in the Soviet Union but effectively banned. And when she played Romantic music, it was impressive - except that she didn't play what was written. Liszt's Weinen und Klagen was phenomenal, but Schubert's B-flat major Sonata, while arresting as an interpretation, was the exact opposite of what it should have been, and I remember a performance of the Second Chopin Nocturne that was so heroic that it no longer sounded like a piano but a trumpet. It was no longer Schubert or Chopin, but Yudina.
> 
> During the war she had given The Well-Tempered Clavier at a splendid concert, even if she polished off the contemplative Prelude in B-flat minor from Book Two at a constant fortissimo. At the end of the concert, Neuhaus, whom I was accompanying, went to congratulate her in her dressing-room.
> 
> 'But, Maria Veniaminovna,' he asked her, 'why did you play the B-flat minor Prelude in such a dramatic way?'
> 
> 'Because we are at war!'
> 
> It was typical of Yudina. 'We're at war!' She absolutely had to bring the war into Bach.
> 
> She also used to wander around with a revolver, which she would show to all and sundry. It really was a bit much. She used to say: 'Hold this thing for me, but be careful, it's loaded.'
> 
> One day she developed a crush on someone who didn't return her advances. One can understand why; he must have been terrified of her. And so she challenged him to a duel.
> 
> By the end of her concerts I always used to have a headache. She subjected her audiences to such a degree of intensity, an incredible intensity! And then there was her way of coming onstage; you had the impression she was walking through the rain. And she carried a crucifix and crossed herself before launching into the first note. I've nothing against this, but in Soviet Russia, at that time!…
> 
> Of course, she cared for the poor, took them in and lived like a tramp herself. An eccentric woman and an extraordinary artist, but someone who always felt the need to invent things… Even so, I played at her funeral. Rachmaninoff."


personal criticism from the man who at one point in his later career couldn't be separated from a pink plastic lobster


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## joen_cph

mparta said:


> personal criticism from the man who at one point in his later career couldn't be separated from a pink plastic lobster


Am not quite sure what you mean, except from that it's probably not thought of as a praise ...

EDIT: oh, I see that he'd tend to bring one with him, as an eccentric symbol against his own nervousness.


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## mparta

joen_cph said:


> Am not quite sure what you mean, except from that it's probably not thought of as a praise ...
> 
> EDIT: oh, I see that he'd tend to bring one with him, as an eccentric symbol against his own nervousness.


Oh, it's not praise or criticism, just something that makes his criticism of Yudina's peculiarities a little ironic, maybe that's the word.


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## Guest

I vote for Ivo Pogorelich. His early recordings were "different" in a good way (some tempo choices, interesting chord voicings, etc.), then after his wife died, his playing went downhill very quickly--more wrong notes (in concert), extremely slow tempos, ugly banging, etc. The tempo and banging issues are very evident in his most recent recording of Beethoven and Rachmaninoff. It's hard to believe it's the same pianist who recorded Ravel's "Gaspard de la nuit" and Bach's English Suites.


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## mparta

Fazioli said:


> I vote for Ivo Pogorelich. His early recordings were "different" in a good way (some tempo choices, interesting chord voicings, etc.), then after his wife died, his playing went downhill very quickly--more wrong notes (in concert), extremely slow tempos, ugly banging, etc. The tempo and banging issues are very evident in his most recent recording of Beethoven and Rachmaninoff. It's hard to believe it's the same pianist who recorded Ravel's "Gaspard de la nuit" and Bach's English Suites.


I loved that Prokofiev/Ravel disc, but I heard him in Paris a couple of years ago and it was wretched, indulgent/indifferent playing. With an ugly mien at that. No idea what the point is but would not hear him again for love or money. I never thought the discs that I heard were that peculiar but the playing then was brilliant. There are so many brilliant pianists, but to hold on to the sense of why the music is important and still retain a sense of wonder and the need to learn even when the technique is "finished" is the challenge. He fails.


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## Pat Fairlea

Roger Knox said:


> Then there are the historical pianists who really were, or became, showmen. I am thinking of Vladimir de Pachmann (1848-1933) as described by Harold C. Schonberg in _The Great Pianists_. De Pachmann was a Chopin specialist who apparently could play with an amazingly controlled pianissimo, but was best known for making speeches to the audience and clowning at the keyboard. Wrote George Bernard Shaw: "Mr. Vladimir de Pachmann gave his well-known pantomimic performance, with accompaniments by Chopin." He was very short and did a routine where after fiddling with the height of the piano bench, he brought out a phone book to sit on, was still not satisfied, tore a page out of the phone book and, beaming, proceeded to play. I saw Victor Borge do the same bit at one of his wonderful shows. Maybe that was de Pachmann's gift to the world; at any rate his recordings were poor. But it makes me wonder if the concert pianist's long years of stress and insecurity led to his instability. A very different case is the life of the great Josef Hofmann, who as a stunning prodigy won unanimous praise but was overworked and exploited. Over the years he maintained and enhanced his spontaneous style and tremendous technique, but he developed a drinking problem and became inconsistent in some of the few of concerts he gave. Nevertheless, today his recordings are treasured. How concert pianists play cannot be separated from what happens in their lives.


I think it was Rachmaninoff who said "Hoffman is the greatest pianist. When he is sober"


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## Flamme

Fazioli said:


> I vote for Ivo Pogorelich. His early recordings were "different" in a good way (some tempo choices, interesting chord voicings, etc.), then after his wife died, his playing went downhill very quickly--more wrong notes (in concert), extremely slow tempos, ugly banging, etc. The tempo and banging issues are very evident in his most recent recording of Beethoven and Rachmaninoff. It's hard to believe it's the same pianist who recorded Ravel's "Gaspard de la nuit" and Bach's English Suites.


How do you mean ''banging''?


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## Guest

Flamme said:


> How do you mean ''banging''?


It's self-explanatory isn't it? Guess not. I mean he's simply slamming his fingers onto the keys as hard as possible.


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## Handelian

Fazioli said:


> I vote for Ivo Pogorelich. His early recordings were "different" in a good way (some tempo choices, interesting chord voicings, etc.), then after his wife died, his playing went downhill very quickly--more wrong notes (in concert), extremely slow tempos, ugly banging, etc. The tempo and banging issues are very evident in his most recent recording of Beethoven and Rachmaninoff. It's hard to believe it's the same pianist who recorded Ravel's "Gaspard de la nuit" and Bach's English Suites.


I have a Tchaikovsky 1 from him which is excellent.


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## Guest

Handelian said:


> I have a Tchaikovsky 1 from him which is excellent.


Agreed. I like of of his DG recordings--some are absolute favorites. His problems began about 15+ years ago. The disastrous Sony release from August 2019 was his first recording in years--well after he left DG.


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## MusicInTheAir

I bought my first Peter Serkin records when I was around 11 years old. On the LP cover was a picture of a clean cut Peter Serkin. A few years later, there was an article in the New York Times about the journey he had made while reconsidering his career as a concert pianist. When I saw the picture which accompanied the article, I almost couldn't believe that was the same Peter Serkin! The obituary you quoted is correct that he mapped out the way to a different career path than he was originally on, one which now included contemporary music. I think part of what he went through, breaking free from his father, made him very relatable. One of the memorable concerts I've gone to was a free outdoor concert Tashi gave in the late '70s outside of what was then called Avery Fisher Hall. They were dressed casually, the whole atmosphere was very casual, but there was no denying the excellence of the interpretation and performance. 

I was very saddened by the news of his death last February, but was very grateful for the box of all his RCA/CBS recordings which was released last Spring.

Regarding the topic of this thread, I would also put, as others have, the names of Alfred Cortot and Martha Argerich. I probably wouldn't recommend Cortot to someone looking for their first recording of a piece, but I love the unique freeness he brings to Chopin and Schumann. I seem to recall a Rubinstein quote about Argerich where he asked her why she always plays so fast and she responded "Because I can." I enjoy many of her solo recordings. I haven't been too crazy about many of the more recent "live" performances which can be seen on You Tube.


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## mparta

Pat Fairlea said:


> I think it was Rachmaninoff who said "Hoffman is the greatest pianist. When he is sober"


There is a de Pachmann biography. He was crazy as a betsy bug. The oddities of his personal life and the reports of his on stage behavior are over the top and one would think that these would preclude taking him as a serious artist-- except--- his recordings are not poor, at least not uniformly so. There is a Verdi/Liszt Rigoletto paraphrase that is magical. It must be the virtue that made people put up with the nuttiness. Apparently rather sexually conflicted and acted that out as well in odd ways.
But some of the playing is golden age. Some of it.


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## mparta

MusicInTheAir said:


> I bought my first Peter Serkin records when I was around 11 years old. On the LP cover was a picture of a clean cut Peter Serkin. A few years later, there was an article in the New York Times about the journey he had made while reconsidering his career as a concert pianist. When I saw the picture which accompanied the article, I almost couldn't believe that was the same Peter Serkin! The obituary you quoted is correct that he mapped out the way to a different career path than he was originally on, one which now included contemporary music. I think part of what he went through, breaking free from his father, made him very relatable. One of the memorable concerts I've gone to was a free outdoor concert Tashi gave in the late '70s outside of what was then called Avery Fisher Hall. They were dressed casually, the whole atmosphere was very casual, but there was no denying the excellence of the interpretation and performance.
> 
> I was very saddened by the news of his death last February, but was very grateful for the box of all his RCA/CBS recordings which was released last Spring.
> 
> Regarding the topic of this thread, I would also put, as others have, the names of Alfred Cortot and Martha Argerich. I probably wouldn't recommend Cortot to someone looking for their first recording of a piece, but I love the unique freeness he brings to Chopin and Schumann. I seem to recall a Rubinstein quote about Argerich where he asked her why she always plays so fast and she responded "Because I can." I enjoy many of her solo recordings. I haven't been too crazy about many of the more recent "live" performances which can be seen on You Tube.


I was lucky enough to see Argerich in concert more than once in New York. I wish I could have gone to the european festivals (I think it's Lugano) where she held court for years in the summer. She is the most magnificent pianist I have ever heard. In NYC she played her concerto repertoire, Ravel, Chopin e minor, Prokofiev 3, Schumann, and she did a huge benefit for the John Wayne Cancer place where her melanoma had been treated. The benefit included some really awful chamber music because her partners were not up to snuff (Juilliard quartet in the Schumann quintet and Ivry Gitlis, god help us, in the Kreutzer (I think?). He was just nuts. Pianists have the advantage that the instrument will not indulge certain inadequacies (no matter how out of practice you are, you can't play out of tune). Not so the fiddle.
But then she played the Prokofiev 7th sonata and just left the piano with smoke coming out from under the hood. A friend who was with me and didn't know the piece turned and said "what was that!??". It was unparalleled virtuosity and musicianship.
I realized when I heard her Chopin e minor that it's not that she played "fast", it's that she hears fast. The music is all there, that and more. 
I am very lucky to have heard her, I do not expect her likes in my lifetime. She is unusual in that she is far above the crowded middle mediocrity of much playing. Never less than superb. A sound, an approach and a result all her own.
I remember the Rubinstein story as he asked her "must it all be so fast" but maybe it's apocryphal, I don't know now where it would be verified.
Watch her play Beethoven concerti, every phrase is fluid, fit to the music and perfected in the most natural way. It's as if she could say "here's how it goes, don't you know that"?


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## Varick

mparta said:


> There's a stupid quote of Barenboim saying Cortot put the opium back in Chopin, or something like that. Only it's substantially less stupid when you hear his Chopin preludes from 1955, a live take. Wow, opium and some more, Chopin as the heir to Baudelaire.


It is a stupid quote from a man who could have been something of a pianist (although his Mendelssohn songs without words is quite good & some of his Beethoven sonatas are listenable) but he decided that royalty (being a conductor) was more important. The irony is that his conducting sucked the life out of almost every piece of music he ever tried conducting. How he kept his station at the CSO for as long as he did is beyond me.

I find Josef Hofmann's piano playing to absolutely exhilarating. I have over 12 CD's of his and find his playing par excellence. Yes, he was quite the drunk in his later years which always astounding me. I have played Rach Preludes, Schumann Impromptus, Bach Preludes and Fugues, Chopin Polonaises, etc., with efficency and aplomb, however, with a few drinks, I can barely scratch out chopsticks on the piano. My fingers become a mangled mess of incoherency. So I always marvel at people who can play instruments while even being mildly buzzed let alone drunk, which is how Josef Hofmann played often in his later years, but still great.

I only have Yudina's recording of Bach's Goldbergs (one of my favorite pieces of all time of which I have over 18 recordings). It is certainly different. I took me a few listenings to even appreciate it. The first time I heard it, I thought it was horrible. Now, I think it rather good and interesting.

V


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## mparta

I only have Yudina's recording of Bach's Goldbergs (one of my favorite pieces of all time of which I have over 18 recordings). It is certainly different. I took me a few listenings to even appreciate it. The first time I heard it, I thought it was horrible. Now, I think it rather good and interesting.

If you want something (and now for something completely different) listen to her Schubert D 960. Probably on YouTube but worth having, it breaks all my rules about indulgence and, well, it just breaks all my rules and I think it's magnificent. This is a place where a young musician could fall into the trap of trying to imitate, couldn't be done. Maria Yudina has a sufficient (pretty large, actually) recorded legacy and a personality to match. Great Prokofiev Visions Fugitives, also, by the way.

V[/QUOTE]


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## SearsPoncho

Varick said:


> It is a stupid quote from a man who could have been something of a pianist (although his Mendelssohn songs without words is quite good & some of his Beethoven sonatas are listenable) but he decided that royalty (being a conductor) was more important. The irony is that his conducting sucked the life out of almost every piece of music he ever tried conducting. How he kept his station at the CSO for as long as he did is beyond me.
> 
> I find Josef Hofmann's piano playing to absolutely exhilarating. I have over 12 CD's of his and find his playing par excellence. Yes, he was quite the drunk in his later years which always astounding me. I have played Rach Preludes, Schumann Impromptus, Bach Preludes and Fugues, Chopin Polonaises, etc., with efficency and aplomb, however, with a few drinks, I can barely scratch out chopsticks on the piano. My fingers become a mangled mess of incoherency. So I always marvel at people who can play instruments while even being mildly buzzed let alone drunk, which is how Josef Hofmann played often in his later years, but still great.
> 
> I only have Yudina's recording of Bach's Goldbergs (one of my favorite pieces of all time of which I have over 18 recordings). It is certainly different. I took me a few listenings to even appreciate it. The first time I heard it, I thought it was horrible. Now, I think it rather good and interesting.
> 
> V


Aloha. I have heard great things about Hofmann over the years, yet haven't searched out any recordings. Are there any you would recommend?


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## Varick

SearsPoncho said:


> Aloha. I have heard great things about Hofmann over the years, yet haven't searched out any recordings. Are there any you would recommend?


Well first let me preface something. Almost all of Hofmann's recordings are "historic." Do NOT expect good sound. If sound quality is essential to your listening enjoyment, then I would suggest you don't even open this door. You will NOT enjoy it. However, if you can "get through" horrible sound quality, I can assure you that GREAT (and I mean GREAT!!!) performances are to be heard. This not only goes for Josef Hofmann, but also epic recordings of Furtwangler (particular Beethoven symphonies), Weintgartner, Toscanini, and many others.

So, to your question. I'm not sure of the availability of these recordings, but here are a few albums that actually have pretty good sound:

- "Grand Piano: Hofmann: Liszt And Beethoven"
- "Hofmann: Grand Piano - Chopin"

Those are the two with surprisingly good sound considering the date. I actually have an old historic recording from Vladimir Horowitz that was recorded on a device called the Welte Mignon (it's actually the name of the album) and it was recorded in 1926. The sound is PHENOMENAL considering the year it was recorded. I've heard MUCH worse recordings done in the '60s and '70's!

There is a whole series called "The Complete Josef Hofmann" I have Volumes 1,2,4,5 &6.
There is also a great 2 disc collection of his that's part of the "Great Pianists of the 20th Century" Series. It's Volume 46 that has Josef Hofmann.

I hope for your sake you can get through the harsh, bad sound quality. The performances beyond that are incredible.

V


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## SearsPoncho

Varick said:


> Well first let me preface something. Almost all of Hofmann's recordings are "historic." Do NOT expect good sound. If sound quality is essential to your listening enjoyment, then I would suggest you don't even open this door. You will NOT enjoy it. However, if you can "get through" horrible sound quality, I can assure you that GREAT (and I mean GREAT!!!) performances are to be heard. This not only goes for Josef Hofmann, but also epic recordings of Furtwangler (particular Beethoven symphonies), Weintgartner, Toscanini, and many others.
> 
> So, to your question. I'm not sure of the availability of these recordings, but here are a few albums that actually have pretty good sound:
> 
> - "Grand Piano: Hofmann: Liszt And Beethoven"
> - "Hofmann: Grand Piano - Chopin"
> 
> Those are the two with surprisingly good sound considering the date. I actually have an old historic recording from Vladimir Horowitz that was recorded on a device called the Welte Mignon (it's actually the name of the album) and it was recorded in 1926. The sound is PHENOMENAL considering the year it was recorded. I've heard MUCH worse recordings done in the '60s and '70's!
> 
> There is a whole series called "The Complete Josef Hofmann" I have Volumes 1,2,4,5 &6.
> There is also a great 2 disc collection of his that's part of the "Great Pianists of the 20th Century" Series. It's Volume 46 that has Josef Hofmann.
> 
> I hope for your sake you can get through the harsh, bad sound quality. The performances beyond that are incredible.
> 
> V


Thank you for the suggestions. I will look into the recordings you mentioned. I'm pretty tolerant of historic recordings with less than ideal sound quality. I have a good deal of Furtwangler, Toscanini and even Horowitz's mercurial recordings from the '30's.

By the way, one of the great crimes the music industry committed was removing most of the "Great Pianists of the 20th Century" series from the catalog.


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## joen_cph

Welte Mignon are mechanical pianos still working, you insert a paper roll with holes, recorded from the pianist's performance on a special piano, which another special piano will then reproduce. So the sound of those recordings is that of today. However, due to these mechanisms, some details of the interpretation are lost, and typically there's a bit - or a lot - more 'hammering' to it.


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