# La Stupenda at her best???



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Few would argue that Joan Sutherland had an astounding voice and technique. I'm guessing that even her most devoted fans would acknowledge her often mentioned deficits; frequent poor diction and at times, a lack of dramatic involvement.

Which recordings show her at her best in terms of reconciling these elements? When were voice, diction, involvement and technique all coming together to give us La Stupenda at her most Stupendous? Complete operas and individual arias are all welcome.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

That's a really difficult question, but I think the early live recordings of Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani and La Sonnambula show her at her vocal best and she has very few to no problems with diction.

Lucia ROH 1959:





La Sonnambula ROH 1960:





(Both of the above were conducted by Tulio Serafin who no doubt helped her dramatic delivery of the words.)

I prefer her second Puritani from the same year at the Edinburgh Festival rather than the Glyndebourne performance (both were conducted by Gui).

I Puritani 1960:





The only problem with these early Sutherland recordings is that they are live and so don't have perfect studio sound and they also feature the traditional cuts which were opened for her later Decca studio recordings (two each for these roles).

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Though I am not a huge fan of Sutherland and confess that her post-1961 recordings bother me, there are exceptions, two of which are her early recitals in which voice and diction are in pristine form















and *Turandot*, a rather late recording in which she finds diction again (different conductor) and lets the voice loose.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

_Art of the Prima Donna_ says it all when it comes to La Stupenda. It is just awesome.
I remember stopping for a red light with my windows down on a nice spring day and her voice was blaring a high note, when the person in the car next to me looked at me and gave me a huge thumbs up! He got it!!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Conte said:


> That's a really difficult question, but I think the early live recordings of Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani and La Sonnambula show her at her vocal best and she has very few to no problems with diction.
> 
> Lucia ROH 1959:
> 
> ...


Need a little more time before I can sit back and enjoy these cuts but your pointing out the conductors brought the question to mind....do you consider Bonynge culpable in a major way for the Sutherland bad habits? Right or wrong, is that an accepted part of the Sutherland story...that Bonynge's contribution contributed big time to the famous problems?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> Need a little more time before I can sit back and enjoy these cuts but your pointing out the conductors brought the question to mind....do you consider Bonynge culpable in a major way for the Sutherland bad habits? Right or wrong, is that an accepted part of the Sutherland story...that Bonynge's contribution contributed big time to the famous problems?


Definitely his doing, though I can't fault him for giving Sutherland the sinus problems that, in my opinion, screwed up her vocal production after the surgery she had in the late fifties.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I did two Youtube presentations of her. This had better media but this other one a the bottom had a better story:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

She was the most impressive soprano I ever saw in my life.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

ScottK said:


> Few would argue that Joan Sutherland had an astounding voice and technique. I'm guessing that even her most devoted fans would acknowledge her often mentioned deficits; frequent poor diction and at times, a lack of dramatic involvement.


At times? Let me put it this way: Grandstanding is what she knew best. Didn't matter what she was singing, she was never in character. This is mostly why she is not in my radar.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

ALT said:


> At times? Let me put it this way: Grandstanding is what she knew best. Didn't matter what she was singing, she was never in character. This is mostly why she is not in my radar.


Wow!!! She ain't there for you that's clear!

I posted this because I don't know alot of her stuff being neither a female voice nor a bel canto afficionado. I'd like to go a little further in each direction.

Having said that, I do have some aquaintance with her mostly from her first Rigoletto and Traviata, and I'll have to say I would not go that far. Is her Gilda characterized like Callas'....no. But in neither case did I think she was ignoring character. Neither of those recordings gave me the sense I had when I got the recording of her broadcast Norma -- (if that doesn't define my tastes???....got the Norma for the Pollione!!!). I went right to the final duet and ensemble and was fairly shocked at the lack of involvement, in a LIVE performance!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> She was the most impressive soprano I ever saw in my life.


I feel like a virgin and you are talking about s*x. I am so envious that you had the experience of hearing her live so many times. I get the impression recordings fail at capturing the live effect of her big voice. I've had other great experiences, just not that one LOL


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ALT said:


> At times? Let me put it this way: Grandstanding is what she knew best. Didn't matter what she was singing, she was never in character. This is mostly why she is not in my radar.


With apologies to all who have posted in the G&S thread, what never? Well, hardly ever.

I think _never_ is an exaggeration. She had moments were she was more committed to characterisation and some of her performances find her delivering a more dramatic exposition of the text.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I feel like a virgin and you are talking about s*x. I am so envious that you had the experience of hearing her live so many times. I get the impression recordings fail at capturing the live effect of her big voice. I've had other great experiences, just not that one LOL


I'll let Rogerx give his impressions of the difference between her voice as heard live and on her recordings as I never saw her live. However, there was a recording on YouTube made from the top tier of an opera house and it lets you know how the voice sounded right at the back, as it were. The voice is huge and she sounds more like Nilsson than Caballe.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I'll let Rogerx give his impressions of the difference between her voice as heard live and on her recordings as I never saw her live. However, there was a recording on YouTube made from the top tier of an opera house and it lets you know how the voice sounded right at the back, as it were. The voice is huge and she sounds more like Nilsson than Caballe.
> 
> N.


Do you remember which one?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Conte said:


> With apologies to all who have posted in the G&S thread, what never? Well, hardly ever.
> 
> I think _never_ is an exaggeration. She had moments were she was more committed to characterisation and some of her performances find her delivering a more dramatic exposition of the text.
> 
> N.


Hardly ever swears a big, big G!!!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Do you remember which one?


I've tried to find it, but it looks as though it's been taken down.

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

This is my favorite recording of Joan. It showcases a bit more chest voice and her heroic coloratura at the peak of its glory.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> This is my favorite recording of Joan. It showcases a bit more chest voice and her heroic coloratura at the peak of its glory.


I agree, friend. She did an earlier version without the high notes. The size of her voice on those scales is jawdropping. Not your typical coloratura.I don't think the recording equipment of the day could fully capture her high notes. Her later ones were recorded better. This is one of those arias I wish early Callas had recorded. If so we would have not one but two superhuman recordings I'm sure.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> This is my favorite recording of Joan. It showcases a bit more chest voice and her heroic coloratura at the peak of its glory.


Just jaw dropping!!!Magnificent!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I agree, friend. *She did an earlier version without the high notes. *The size of her voice on those scales is jawdropping. Not your typical coloratura.I don't think the recording equipment of the day could fully capture her high notes. Her later ones were recorded better. This is one of those arias I wish early Callas had recorded. If so we would have not one but two superhuman recordings I'm sure.


Where? I want to hear it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Where? I want to hear it.


It used to be on Youtube. I don't spot it now. The other version is the best. I think it was on the La Stupenda set.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

A runner up with regards to dramatic intensity is this aria from Mozart's Idomeneo


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> A runner up with regards to dramatic intensity is this aria from Mozart's Idomeneo


The cuts Im hearing are making the not involved thing sound crazy, even though I know Ive experienced it. I've never heard Sutherland attack anything like this...but then again, I Just haven't known her that well.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Conte said:


> That's a really difficult question, but I think the early live recordings of Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani and La Sonnambula show her at her vocal best and she has very few to no problems with diction.
> 
> Lucia ROH 1959:
> 
> ...


I heard her sing Puritani a million years ago but not being in my "zone" just remember that she was really good. This " vien diletto" put next to the Idomeneo aria posted on here, does not support the idea of her lacking dramatic gifts. She sounds like someone with dramatic range.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Where? I want to hear it.


It is not on La Stupenda. Sorry. It is not nearly as good.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> A runner up with regards to dramatic intensity is this aria from Mozart's Idomeneo


I was tempted to use this in my contest but was reluctant as she doesn't do well here. This thread is maybe changing my mind. I love her version of this great aria... one of Mozart's most exciting.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Some examples...
La Sonnambula 1963





Maria Stuarda 1971





Lucia di Lammermoor 1975


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Donizetti: Betly / Act 1 - "In questo semplice modesto asilo" · 
Joan Sutherland · Orchestra of the Welsh National Opera · Richard Bonynge

Almost at the end of the recording era, still great.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This one can get lost in the more well known arias listed already , but I think it has some of the most dazzlingly quick coloratura I've ever heard. I've always thought the French Coloratura is more difficult to perform than the Italian, which might have more high notes but is not as complicated to perform as the French. Meyerbeer is out of fashion but he wrote some amazing music. Joan and Ricky felt that the French Opera Gala was her supreme accomplishment.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I am searching for pictures I made myself after the performances, curtain call so to speak 
And with me on it after the performances. .:angel:


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Conte said:


> That's a really difficult question, but I think the early live recordings of Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani and La Sonnambula show her at her vocal best and she has very few to no problems with diction.
> 
> Lucia ROH 1959:
> 
> ...


Just finished the Lucia mad scene and aside from realizing that these cuts are making me a Sutherland fan I had two recurring thoughts.

The first is, is it *possible* that she was sometimes judged as being dramatically uninspired, simply because her major competition, in the same roles, was debatedly the most dramatically inspired soprano of the century?! I've always felt that Bergonzi's strong voice was unfairly thought of as small in large part because he followed Delmonaco and sang at the same time as Corelli, debatedly the two most powerful Italian tenor voices of the century. These cuts of her at her best don't need comparison with Callas. They are a singer very involved in the drama of the songs and showing it!

Second question....if she can sing like this with good diction, what was it she gained technically (I Assume the reason for the unarticulated bad diction to come) by pronouncing the words less well?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ScottK said:


> Just finished the Lucia mad scene and aside from realizing that these cuts are making me a Sutherland fan I had two recurring thoughts.
> 
> The first is, is it *possible* that she was sometimes judged as being dramatically uninspired, simply because her major competition, in the same roles, was debatedly the most dramatically inspired soprano of the century?! I've always felt that Bergonzi's strong voice was unfairly thought of as small in large part because he followed Delmonaco and sang at the same time as Corelli, debatedly the two most powerful Italian tenor voices of the century. These cuts of her at her best don't need comparison with Callas. They are a singer very involved in the drama of the songs and showing it!
> 
> Second question....if she can sing like this with good diction, what was it she gained technically (I Assume the reason for the unarticulated bad diction to come) by pronouncing the words less well?


She and Richard said that it came about because she changed her way of singing in order to sing legato. Whilst the change may have come about via an attempt to sing with more legato, if the vowels are strongly phonated and the singer doesn't let the consonants clip up the musical line then there should be more legato. Fortunately Sutherland had such a great voice and enough technique that even with the poor diction that crept in during the sixties that much of her recorded output is very rewarding to listen to.

I agree that comparing her to Callas is unfair, but I tend to compare her with Caballe who I find more dramatic, more of the time. However, Caballe cancelled a lot (whereas Sutherland was famous for being super reliable) and Caballe was very varied in terms of quality live. Overall I prefer Caballe, but perhaps I would have preferred Sutherland if I had been going to opera when they were both singing as Sutherland may have had more better nights in the theatre.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> She and Richard said that it came about because she changed her way of singing in order to sing legato. Whilst the change may have come about via an attempt to sing with more legato, if the vowels are strongly phonated and the singer doesn't let the consonants clip up the musical line then there should be more legato. Fortunately Sutherland had such a great voice and enough technique that even with the poor diction that crept in during the sixties that much of her recorded output is very rewarding to listen to.
> 
> I agree that comparing her to Callas is unfair, but I tend to compare her with Caballe who I find more dramatic, more of the time. However, Caballe cancelled a lot (whereas Sutherland was famous for being super reliable) and Caballe was very varied in terms of quality live. Overall I prefer Caballe, but perhaps I would have preferred Sutherland if I had been going to opera when they were both singing as Sutherland may have had more better nights in the theatre.
> 
> N.


I so love what you say about the divas here!!!
Caballe was fabulous but inconsistent. Next week in my contest you will get to judge both of them at their very best. Be sure to give your inputs. They are both totally wonderful in different ways in next week's aria..


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Caballe is the only big time star singer I ever heard sing and sound like something close to a non-professional. It was the four last songs at Tanglewood and she had to have gone onstage without warming up! About half her volume! And even at that level the sound would come and go and it didn't get to be a recognizably full sound until the third song! No announcements about a cold or anything, don't know if she had one, but it was just plain bad!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> She and Richard said that it came about because she changed her way of singing in order to sing legato. Whilst the change may have come about via an attempt to sing with more legato, if the vowels are strongly phonated and the singer doesn't let the consonants clip up the musical line then there should be more legato. Fortunately Sutherland had such a great voice and enough technique that even with the poor diction that crept in during the sixties that much of her recorded output is very rewarding to listen to.
> 
> N.


I've read this before, but I'm not sure it holds water. Though Sutherland was wonderfully smooth in fast moving music, her legato in long sustained passages often leaves something to be desired. I often incite as example the opening phrase of Puccini's _Senza mamma_, which in Sutherland's version emerges with each note given a slight push, and the words still aren't very clear. It's hard to put into words, but if you were then to listen to the same phrase sung by Tebaldi, Callas, Scotto or De Los Angeles, they all have better diction, sing a pure legato and the consonants don't disturb that legato at all.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've read this before, but I'm not sure it holds water. Though Sutherland was wonderfully smooth in fast moving music, her legato in long sustained passages often leaves something to be desired. I often incite as example the opening phrase of Puccini's _Senza mamma_, which in Sutherland's version emerges with each note given a slight push, and the words still aren't very clear. It's hard to put into words, but if you were then to listen to the same phrase sung by Tebaldi, Callas, Scotto or De Los Angeles, they all have better diction, sing a pure legato and the consonants don't disturb that legato at all.


I'm also not aware of legato being a particular issue in Sutherland's early recordings as opposed to her later ones. It is possible that Sutherland and Bonynge did consciously change her voice in an attempt to improve a perceived issue with her legato and they liked the results. This could be an erroneous perception on their part. I don't have a strong opinion on it as I don't think it can be proved either way (whether it was a conscious change as she and Bonynge are said to have claimed or whether it happened without an effort on their part).

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The idea that legato and clarity of enunciation are antagonists is refuted by centuries of vocal pedagogy, as well as the recorded history of singing in which innumerable examples prove the contrary. The phonation of vowels and consonants, done properly, shouldn't disturb the flow of tone in any way, but if it does the solution is not to do away with vowels and consonants but to break the counterproductive interaction between the vocal muscles and the tongue and jaw. In Sutherland's early recordings I hear no indication of improper coordination, so if the Bonynges thought there was a problem I can't imagine what they were hearing to suggest the need for a remedy.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've read this before, but I'm not sure it holds water. Though Sutherland was wonderfully smooth in fast moving music, her legato in long sustained passages often leaves something to be desired. I often incite as example the opening phrase of Puccini's _Senza mamma_, which in Sutherland's version emerges with each note given a slight push, and the words still aren't very clear. It's hard to put into words, but if you were then to listen to the same phrase sung by Tebaldi, Callas, Scotto or De Los Angeles, they all have better diction, sing a pure legato and the consonants don't disturb that legato at all.


I 100% agree. A few days ago, I listened to her 1963 live I Puritani conducted by Gui. She was so adorable in Son vergin vezzosa; the coloratura and her silvery timbre is a match in heaven for this type of fast, sparkling arias. But when it comes to slower, more intense music, she couldn't quite capture that sustained Bellinian lines as well as Callas, Zeani, and Caballe. Figuratively, the vocal lines are "jagged" and uneven rather than smooth strokes, even though her timbre is very pleasant. Keep in mind that this was very early Sutherland. This problem exacerbates in her later studio recordings.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> The idea that legato and clarity of enunciation are antagonists is refuted by centuries of vocal pedagogy, as well as the recorded history of singing in which innumerable examples prove the contrary. The phonation of vowels and consonants, done properly, shouldn't disturb the flow of tone in any way, but if it does the solution is not to do away with vowels and consonants but to break the counterproductive interaction between the vocal muscles and the tongue and jaw. In Sutherland's early recordings I hear no indication of improper coordination, so if the Bonynges thought there was a problem I can't imagine what they were hearing to suggest the need for a remedy.


That really is the biggest thing to me too....what was so bad?? Without going to listen I certainly believe, because of the people who are saying it, that there are moments when the legato is not up to par. But, even though I've not been a Sutherland nut, I am familiar with her singing and never thought about the smoothness of her singing being a question mark.


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