# What is Modern classical music



## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

It seems that the people who decide where or what defines classical music maybe running off the rails a bit. What is classical music? is it modern music come experimental music as they like to refer to that as classical. And who decides what is truly classical music. I am a composer of modern classical music and I call it this as it is based on style, rules and format of true classical music from the classical music period approx 1750 to 1840 before this Baroque and after Romance to modern and so on. The reason I am pointing this out because myself and other composes who compose music based on the true classical format as mentioned have very little no chance of ever having their music played or winning a musical competition in Australia or else where as the powers to be running the classical music scene in Australia are rejecting classical music and pushing modern and or experimental music to the forefront and ignoring some very good true classical music composers as you may realise that all the music competitions of resent years are being won by modern/experiment composes so it is obvious that the music judges are rejecting Australian composes whom compose real classical music and are not judging these competitions fairly by judging the music based on it's musical quality, structure, complexity and true classical style. and some very talented composers are being ignored as a consequence. I do not see the concert halls over flowing with people wanting to hear Modern/experimental so called classical music I wonder why!!!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Maybe your going to the wrong concert halls.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Modern classical music is music written in the last century or so within the classical tradition, extending back into the medieval period.

It's as simple as that, really. Nothing more to it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

What most call "classical" music just means music derived from the academic traditions, with a few nods to the occasional quirky outsider like Charles Ives.

I'm an illustrator, not a musician, but I don't think one should compose music to win awards. I doubt that would work. Also, many experimental composers, Penderecki for example, are returning to a more formal style. I think you should stay true to whatever it is you do and the rest of the world can come along for the ride or not as they see fit.

[Edit] But I am puzzled why one would not want to experiment.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Oh, please, not this again... It's _ok_ if you don't like Modern/Contemporary classical music, but, please, that thing about "true" classical music is absolute nonsense. Classical music is not about composing music based on some style, rules and format of certain epoch. The defining property of classical music is about the composer putting all his emotions, intellectuality, and technical skills in order to produce a supreme work of pure art, capable of exciting people's emotions, imagination, and subjectivity. Classical music is about art, not about following some rules which were popular 300 years ago, that's preposterous. If you like to obey rules, go, go, but, please, do not try to sell us that classical music is about composing what _you_ like...


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> What most call "classical" music just means music derived from the academic traditions, with a few nods to the occasional quirky outsider like Charles Ives.


Ives may have been an outsider, but he was trained in composition and performance, at Yale.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Laney said:


> What is classical music?


Indeed, times change. "Classical music" used to mean what the record and CD stores put in those bins. Now it means whatever Amazon says.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

This is where some confusion is Medieval What? I pointed out how music is segregated into time zones over the years with Medieval as you say then Baroque, classical, Romance and modern and so on, so why do people continue to put modern orchestral music in the classical category why not call it orchestral jazz this would be far more suitable and I have only on one occasion submit music to a competition that specifically required a piece of music composed for a special occasion like the 80th anniversary of the STO again won by what was described to me by the holders of the competition the TSO as experimental music and this is my main point that the powers to be are specifically promoting this type of music at the cost of some really talented composes of modern classical music.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Laney said:


> This is where some confusion is Medieval What? I pointed out how music is segregated into time zones over the years with Medieval as you say then Baroque, classical, Romance and modern and so on, so why do people continue to put modern orchestral music in the classical category why not call it orchestral jazz this would be far more suitable and I have only on one occasion submit music to a competition that specifically required a piece of music composed for a special occasion like the 80th anniversary of the STO again won by what was described to me by the holders of the competition the TSO as experimental music and this is my main point that the powers to be are specifically promoting this type of music at the cost of some really talented composes of modern classical music.


All I'm getting from this post is that you have no clue what jazz is.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Laney said:


> This is where some confusion is Medieval What? I pointed out how music is segregated into time zones over the years with Medieval as you say then Baroque, classical, Romance and modern and so on, so why do people continue to put modern orchestral music in the classical category why not call it orchestral jazz this would be far more suitable


Based on what criteria, exactly?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Laney said:


> This is where some confusion is Medieval What? I pointed out how music is segregated into time zones over the years with Medieval as you say then Baroque, classical, Romance and modern and so on, so why do people continue to put modern orchestral music in the classical category why not call it orchestral jazz this would be far more suitable and I have only on one occasion submit music to a competition that specifically required a piece of music composed for a special occasion like the 80th anniversary of the STO again won by what was described to me by the holders of the competition the TSO as experimental music and this is my main point that the powers to be are specifically promoting this type of music at the cost of some really talented composes of modern classical music.





Crudblud said:


> All I'm getting from this post is that you have no clue what jazz is.


Nor how to keep a sentence under control. I count about 150 words.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Laney said:


> The reason I am pointing this out because myself and other composes who compose music based on the true classical format as mentioned have very little no chance of ever having their music played or winning a musical competition in Australia ...


Could you tell me what you think about Carl Vine, Ross Edwards, and Peter Sculthorpe? Do you think their music is too removed from the classical tradition? (I realize Sculthorpe is no longer young).

Could you give us an example of a contemporary composer anywhere in the world that you feel _does_ write in the "true classical format" so we have a better sense of where you draw the line?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Laney said:


> This is where some confusion is Medieval What? I pointed out how music is segregated into time zones over the years with Medieval as you say then Baroque, classical, Romance and modern and so on, so why do people continue to put modern orchestral music in the classical category why not call it orchestral jazz this would be far more suitable and I have only on one occasion submit music to a competition that specifically required a piece of music composed for a special occasion like the 80th anniversary of the STO again won by what was described to me by the holders of the competition the TSO as experimental music and this is my main point that the powers to be are specifically promoting this type of music at the cost of some really talented composes of modern classical music.


It seems like you are just making stuff up based on a lack of any real understanding: All those eras were 'defined' and dated in the late 1800's as a way to more conveniently categorize what had become a huge body of varied work written over hundreds of years. Nothing is 'segregated,' -- other than in your mind. Music, from the medieval to the contemporary of today, has always been varied, the harmonic usage developing, the vocabulary changing, rather parallel to styles in art, architecture, and the written word.

The fact that not all the music from any era fits neatly under its general stylistic trend should demonstrate that there is no 'general agenda' of 'how we write' -- either in the classical era or any other.

There is nothing wrong with a good and fresh tonal piece -- if it sounds most like, say, Mendelssohn, just about anybody, including the arch retro-reactionary conservatives, would most likely say, "Why Bother?" After all, Mendelssohn composed all the good Mendelssohn there is.... If it sounds truly 'fresh,' i.e. not derivative, with something worth saying, there will always be room for it.

However, to formulate a rationale that 'all the rest is not desirable' based upon your personal taste, or your preferences _or personal limitations_ as a composer, is going more than a bit too far.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Could you tell me what you think about Carl Vine, Ross Edwards, and Peter Sculthorpe? Do you think their music is too removed from the classical tradition? (I realize Sculthorpe is no longer young).
> 
> Could you give us an example of a contemporary composer anywhere in the world that you feel _does_ write in the "true classical format" so we have a better sense of where you draw the line?


And Brett Dean and Matthew Hindson!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

The problem you have, Laney, is that your music obviously lacks originality. In order to be recognised you should find your own "voice." The general public likes what the old music and old styles have to offer and _no one_ today (not even serious composers) has a chance against Mozart, Beethoven and Bach by writing music that sounds like them. What you obviously haven't noticed is that Mozart, Beethoven, Bach etc. had their own voice and compositional style for their period. Music evolves. Go with the flow. Study some modern classical music, understand it, become passionate about it, experiment and find your own original style. It is great to know music history and have a good knowledge of how music evolved through the eras and to understand music theory, counterpoint, form etc. because that can help you find your own way in the world of composition today. Do you have a composition teacher? If so, have a chat to them about it.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

Well it is good to see some interesting points, To say that no one can improve on Mozart or Beethoven or to take it a step further is a bit defeatist, but in the same direction or even music similar but new what would be wrong with that> These composers laid down the foundations for composes to work from. Why did Tchaikovsky or Grieg bother composing a note after Beethoven and Mozart. Simply because they had something to say musically and very much and closely based on classical style, rules and format.
You do not have to tweak with the rule or format much to find new ways of composition, and if someone composes a good piece of classical or say baroque styled music why push it aside why not have orchestras play this music. Which is the point I have been trying to get across. Carl Vine, Edwards and Sculthorpe have all composed some really good music and some may not be to my personal taste but I am always willing to listen to all types of music. some of Sculthorpe's music that I heard which was based on classical period style was very good indeed. It would be a shame to see orchestras controlled by people who just wish to play modern/experimental music only and at the loss of great music that is based on earlier rules and format, I feel that all music should have equal opportunity to be played if that's what people are willing to pay good money to hear. And petrB yes I have pointed out what your saying and yes the periods over lap but styles of music are clearly defined by the rules and formatting .The word segregated was possible not the best choice of word unless talking of the church music in Mozart's time which Mozart copied and made public. Why would I be making stuff up or you can not read English as well as you think. Or you work for the directors of the orchestra as your last sentence was just narsty and unnecessary feel free to point out where I have expressed this ?????


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Laney said:


> Well it is good to see some interesting points, To say that no one can improve on Mozart or Beethoven or to take it a step further is a bit defeatist, but in the same direction or even music similar but new what would be wrong with that> These composers laid down the foundations for composes to work from. Why did Tchaikovsky or Grieg bother composing a note after Beethoven and Mozart. Simply because they had something to say musically and very much and closely based on classical style, rules and format.


The way Grieg or Tchaikovsky composed was largely unthinkable by Mozart or Beethoven.

I'm currently reading "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen and it's very insightful to read just how much of a musical landslide the notions of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven are compared to the Baroque. Of course this progressed rather gradually, but the harmonies and musical architecture of the (late-)Romantics wouldn't fit in the notion of what constituted as good music in the late 18th century. Experimentation is something that happened in all eras.

The same goes for modern classical music which is still rooted in the tradition of Mozart, Beethoven and Grieg. Old forms like the string quartet, piano concerto, etc. are still kept alive today, albeit sometimes in new configuration or re-imaginings. Modern composers have written Etudes to challenge pianists just like Chopin and Debussy did before them.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Competitions are by and large designed for more experimental compositions. There is a very simple reason for this which is that there isn't a great deal of demand for this type of music in a commercial market. Where there is a commercial market for something there are rarely competitions - why would they be necessary? Clearly there are some competitions for modern, 'old-style' music as the violin concerto thread shows. However, this thread also demonstrates the commercial viability of such music. This is a viability experimental music doesn't have, although minimalist composers have paved the way for a new classical style which is also popular.

I am not saying this is a bad thing, I am just saying that the two types of composition have different requirements. Perhaps you could try selling your music?

Constant comparisons with Bach and Beethoven are useful but flawed analogies - the majority of us will never compose anything of remotely comparable quality regardless of what style we write in. Most people just won't care what we write, now or ever. Full stop/period. There are various motivations for writing music, but I would say that the important things are to be true to yourself and to try and write the best you can. Not to be true to some outdated concept of being 'authentic' to one's epoch. Nor to try and be a 'great' composer.

Don't worry, anyway, Laney. I am not as defeatist as I might seem. We have a wider range of music and techniques than ever before to study and make use of in our compositions and to enrich them. The invention of new technologies vastly increases the musical possibilities available to us in ways I believe we have barely even begun to explore. We don't have to be stylistically 'experimental' to use such things, and we can ignore those who say we ought to be. The mistake is to turn our back on all the things that we have learnt since the 19th century, or whenever, not to write or not write in this or that style.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

Ramako said:


> Competitions are by and large designed for more experimental compositions. There is a very simple reason for this which is that there isn't a great deal of demand for this type of music in a commercial market. Where there is a commercial market for something there are rarely competitions - why would they be necessary? Clearly there are some competitions for modern, 'old-style' music as the violin concerto thread shows. However, this thread also demonstrates the commercial viability of such music. This is a viability experimental music doesn't have, although minimalist composers have paved the way for a new classical style which is also popular.
> 
> I am not saying this is a bad thing, I am just saying that the two types of composition have different requirements. Perhaps you could try selling your music?
> 
> ...


Yes I could not agree more with what you have said and would like you to hear my piano concerto which I am in the final stages of completing. I am completely self taught and find a lot of inspiration from Beethoven and Mozart.


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## wfmtvp (Feb 9, 2013)

Actually, many contemporary composers are now writing in a neo-classical style and are doing quite well! Take John Corigliano for Osvaldo Golijov, to name only two. So, to the guy who started this point, write what's in your heart and if you know what the hell you're doing, believe me, people will listen.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

My question, Laney, is what does your music actually sound like? When you say it's "based on style, rules and format of true classical music from the classical music period approx 1750 to 1840" does this mean the listener would think it was indeed written during this period? Or are your compositions more in the "neoclassical" style of the sort that Martinu et al employed? Or something else again?


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> And Brett Dean and Matthew Hindson!


And Nigel Westlake and Martin Wesley-Smith!


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

If you go to CD baby Karl Hodgson second album you will hear some of my music.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Laney said:


> Yes I could not agree more with what you have said and would like you to hear my piano concerto which I am in the final stages of completing. I am completely self taught and find a lot of inspiration from Beethoven and Mozart.


I would like that too!


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

My music is a mixture of baroque style and classical but stepping out side the rules. I played guitar for years and wrote rock, blues and country music then took up piano and classical music in my early forties. Composer of avant garde I am surprised you have heard my music and my newest and some of what maybe my best music so far I have not made public as yet. I can see why you may say what you have about Beethoven Mozart and Bach but in Bach's time no one really took much notice of bach's music and it was not really appreciated until after his death and great composes are far and few between and I feel that up to the 1900s there has not really been a composer that has stood out as the new Beethoven Mozart in a modern musical form, As I feel that buy this time period that music had become very refined and taken to it's compositional limits without having to take music into a totaly new direction which is were I think we are now, still trying to find something new.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

its the music from films


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I think certainly composers should write what seems best for them, but when trying to sell or promote their music a healthy dose of pragmatism and sense of reality is needed. Mahler famously said "my time will come", and he was proved right but I suppose under different circumstances he could have been proved wrong. Whatever about the particular merits of your own compositions, Laney, I suspect that "your" time may have been and gone. The world has moved on since the days of Mozart and Beethoven, and it's hard to hear such music as anything other than a throwback. That said, I suppose given that Mozart and Beethoven do still sell, a canny marketer might be able to find a niche.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

Mooved on to what? airport toilet music.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Laney said:


> Mooved on to what? airport toilet music.


Excuse me, but what is "airport toilet music?"


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

> Mooved on to what? airport toilet music.


Well, I meant Brahms, Liszt, Verdi, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, Rimsky-Korsakov, Stravinsky, Elgar, Debussy, Schoenberg, Ravel, Poulenc, Bartok etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc and on into the present day but if you want to use "airport toilet music" as shorthand, go right ahead!


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Excuse me, but what is "airport toilet music?"


It's actually very enjoyable ... the only problem is that you can miss the announcements for your flight. At least, it's more enjoyable than sitting in a concert surrounded by some woman's armpit body odour for 1 1/2 hours.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

The way in which most music has changed over the years is by composer oriented change just as Hayden fell out with Beethoven but called Mozart one of the best masters of composition ever. Both being students of Hayden. But what took Beethoven's music to the fore front THE PEOPLE not being dictated to by the directors of the orchestra ( Like what is happening now !) Mozart and Beethoven both fell out with their teachers and orchestral directors as they ( teachers /directors) tried to resist change . Not like today where they are just ignoring all variations of modern classical music and push there choice of music to the fore front of the "progress of music" which is a bias display of dictatorship on their part. It would be like all radio and music producers refusing to play anything but Rap music ( for example ) and rejecting everything else in the name of progress.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Laney, none of us are perfect. In that spirit, let me offer: Your spelling, usage, and history could all use a wee bit of work.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

Yes there have been good composes after Beethoven but even in the art (painting) world today they are more open to all varied types of work. I also understand that a big problem with orchestral music is in the high running cost thereof, so maybe there should be some Radio station open to play composers music of all classical types New age, Modern and experimental and so on, and then the listener would have more input into what the Orchestra may find financially viable to play, Would this be a good idea ?


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

The history that I have referred to has come from a reliable source, well as reliable as recorded but it would be usefull for you to point out were you think I my have got something wrong.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Laney said:


> The history that I have referred to has come from a reliable source, well as reliable as recorded but it would be usefull for you to point out were you think I my have got something wrong.


Well, how about this: "Mozart and Beethoven both fell out with their teachers and orchestral directors as they (teachers /directors) tried to resist change."

My understandings: Beethoven never really "fell out" with Haydn, though he seems to have thought Haydn wasn't giving him enough attention. And certainly not with other teachers such as Salieri and Albrechtsberger. He did resent that Haydn suggested not publishing one early work because he (Haydn) thought the audience wasn't ready for it. Mozart, to my knowledge, never fell out with anybody (his main teacher was his father, and indirectly Haydn).

Neither fell out with "orchestral directors" either so far as I know, and both achieved broad public followings. BTW both were "orchestra directors" themselves (if by that you mean conductors, who along with impresarios called the shots in those days).

Now that I've shared, perhaps you can share your knowledge of these matters.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

A fact which often gets skipped over in history is that Mozart was considered too academic - i.e. inaccessible/learned - in his own time. Standardly this sort of thing is supposed to have begun with Beethoven, but the same was true, albeit to a lesser extent, of Mozart. In fact, according to Landon it is true of Haydn's _Sturm und Drang_ period too, but I'm not sure whether that was just conjecture or whether there was evidence for it - I would need to read again more carefully.


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## Laney (Feb 13, 2013)

It was the church that Mozart had his biggest falling out with, ( Besides his farther but that was more on a personal level concerning the Weber sisters ) March 1781 in Vienna the archbishop Hieronymus Count Colloredo had his steward provide Mozart with a departing kick on the backside. Falling out was not the best choice of word but resistance would of been a more fitting word to use
and mainly in their early periods of composition . Like you say BTW had a big roll to play in the choice of music conductors/kapellmeister where to play. It was after Mozart's writing from memory about three hours of church music which he in turn made available to the public caused most of the problems between Mozart and the church. More so then his new way's of composition. But now you have managed to move the conversation from the main point I was bring to peoples attention concerning a far more important matter of, Why there is not more variation of music put forward to the public then the music selected buy the people controlling the orchestras.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Laney,

The following is a great interview with one of the more suceesful American Composers, Frank Ticheli. He has many comments that I hope you might find helpful.


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