# Where have the big Verdi voices gone?



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I came across this study which takes some reading but may be of interest I view of our discussions. I haven't read it all yet but it seems to be making some interesting points which you might want to discuss

https://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/library/VerdiVoices


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Well, there are still some I consider true golden age style Verdi voices, but the are certainly less common nowadays.

Old-timey singers had a bit more of a YOLO attitude, I think (Salminen sang his first King Philip at 24! Varnay debuted as Sieglinde, in the Met, at 23!). Today, they are generally more careful about when they sing a part.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Sieglinde said:


> Well, there are still some I consider true golden age style Verdi voices, but the are certainly less common nowadays.
> 
> Old-timey singers had a bit more of a YOLO attitude, I think (Salminen sang his first King Philip at 24! Varnay debuted as Sieglinde, in the Met, at 23!). *Today, they are generally more careful about when they sing a part.*


Hmm, I have felt that it's exactly the opposite but of course I might be mistaken and the examples you bring are very impressive (oh my goodness, Varnay sung Brünnhilde in the same production, at 23!!). When it comes to Wagner, singers used to transfer from the _jugendlich_ Wagner roles to the heavy Wagner rather cautiously (of course this depends on singer, the voice and etc.). Many singers in the past managed to preserve their voice much longer than the majority of singers nowadays. I think more important than when they started singing the lighter roles is when they started with the heavier ones. Hotter knowingly avoided _Die Walküre_ Wotan and Sachs for some time, I think Flagstad sung Brünnhilde and Isolde first time when she was 40. Of course Hotter sung his first _Das Rheingold_ Wotan in his early 20s but he started from the provincial German opera houses - I guess that was a much friendlier environment compared to Met or Bayreuth to develop a proper voice and technique.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

DavidA said:


> I came across this study which takes some reading but may be of interest I view of our discussions. I haven't read it all yet but it seems to be making some interesting points which you might want to discuss
> 
> https://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/library/VerdiVoices


Interesting article. I'm not sure what to think, especially not being a vocalist. I might run it by some of my singer colleagues to see what they say.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

This is a fascinating subject. I was surprised to read in the article that Wagner singing has declined "somewhat less" than Verdi. I would have said almost the reverse.

I've always suspected that the biggest single factor is probably the steadily dwindling proportion of the population interested in opera. 

In 1900, any youngster with a spectacular voice was almost certain to be encouraged to take up a career in opera or oratorio. (Think of Walter Widdop's Yorkshire work colleagues telling him, "If I had thy voice and my brains, I'd make some money, I would.") 

By 1950, such a youngster might still go into opera, but they might well go into pop music or musicals instead.

Today, if there is anyone out there with a voice like Tamagno or Flagstad, I would think the statistical probability of them being interested in opera would be slim indeed.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Well, speaking of Verdi and age, I'm watching an open-air Boccanegra right now and the leads looked so ridiculously young I had to look them up. Simon was born in 1987 and Fiesco in 1991. I'm sitting here like "they are literal children. that bass was a schoolboy when I was already out of uni wtf". He's got a big Slavic voice and he's very tall but for the love of Talos. Singing Fiesco at such a young age?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I have not yet read the article but there is no doubt that the majority of today's singers are different from the Golden Age singers. They even train differently today. I might mention several whose voices are reminiscent of that time like Joseph Calleja and Sondra Radvanovsky, both of whom conjure up sounds of the past.
I am not sure yet but I think perhaps Sonja Yoncheva might fit the bill. I have to hear more.
Lucic is a Verdi baritone with power around the same as Hvorostovsky's -- not particularly powerful.
Netrebko also has a Verdian sound and plenty of power. Beczala is close but no cigar.
What is really missing is a true spinto dramatic tenor voice like Tucker/Corelli/Vickers. 
Face it -- those were special times and very dedicated singers who didn't rush to get there.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> Of course Hotter sung his first _Das Rheingold_ Wotan in his early 20s but he started from the provincial German opera houses - I guess that was a much friendlier environment compared to Met or Bayreuth to develop a proper voice and technique.


I don't have a Hotter chronology, but he was already singing the Walkure Wotan before he was 30, and I would guess that he sang the Wanderer even earlier, as its tessitura is higher than in the earlier two operas. And Bayreuth is actually pretty friendly to singers, due to the covered pit and live acoustic; it's also half the capacity of the Met's 4000 seats. Hotter only sang three Wotans at the Met (2 Rheingold, 1 Walkure); apparently Rudolf Bing wasn't a fan.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> Bayreuth is actually pretty friendly to singers.


I'm sure this is true. Also, George Bernard Shaw argued that Wagner's music is _inherently_ more friendly to singers than Verdi's, because Verdi asks his performers to spend much more of their time at the absolute extreme of their range.

It's easy to think of Wagner singers whose voices acquired scarcely a scratch even though they kept bellowing night after night, decade after decade (Melchior, Lorenz, Flagstad, Varnay…). It's also easy to think of long-lasting Verdi singers (Martinelli, Lauri-Volpi, Domingo...), but it couldn't be said that their voices acquired scarcely a scratch.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

annaw said:


> Hmm, I have felt that it's exactly the opposite but of course I might be mistaken and the examples you bring are very impressive (oh my goodness, Varnay sung Brünnhilde in the same production, at 23!!). When it comes to Wagner, singers used to transfer from the _jugendlich_ Wagner roles to the heavy Wagner rather cautiously (of course this depends on singer, the voice and etc.). Many singers in the past managed to preserve their voice much longer than the majority of singers nowadays. I think more important than when they started singing the lighter roles is when they started with the heavier ones. *Hotter knowingly avoided Die Walküre Wotan and Sachs for some time, I think Flagstad sung Brünnhilde and Isolde first time when she was 40. Of course Hotter sung his first Das Rheingold Wotan in his early 20s but he started from the provincial German opera houses - I guess that was a much friendlier environment compared to Met or Bayreuth to develop a proper voice and technique.*


Hotter sang his first Wanderer in 1932. I believe he was 23. Many Wotans find Wanderer to be the most taxing due to act 3.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> I don't have a Hotter chronology, but he was already singing the Walkure Wotan before he was 30, and I would guess that he sang the Wanderer even earlier, as its tessitura is higher than in the earlier two operas. And Bayreuth is actually pretty friendly to singers, due to the covered pit and live acoustic; it's also half the capacity of the Met's 4000 seats. Hotter only sang three Wotans at the Met (2 Rheingold, 1 Walkure); apparently Rudolf Bing wasn't a fan.


Oh, that's interesting - I didn't know that Wanderer has higher tessitura, I maybe even suspected the opposite but that logic seems fair considering that Hotter's voice darkened and lowered quite a bit (from Sachs to Pogner, from Kurwenal to King Marke and from Amfortas to Gurnemanz). That's why I avoided the years when speaking about Hotter :lol:. What I meant by "friendlier" environment was maybe even more that Bayreuth is not the best place to make your first mistakes.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

gvn said:


> It's easy to think of Wagner singers whose voices acquired scarcely a scratch even though they kept bellowing night after night, decade after decade (Melchior, Lorenz, Flagstad, Varnay…)


Yes, OMG, did you ever listen to Melchior's 70th birthday Walküre Act 1? Only worthy competition is his younger self:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the points this research is making is that these voices are extremely rare. There are only a comparatively few of them in each generation. If they do not come through and are not recognised or go into another form of singing then they are lost to opera.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

DavidA said:


> One of the points this research is making is that these voices are extremely rare. There are only a comparatively few of them in each generation. If they do not come through and are not recognised or go into another form of singing then they are lost to opera.


On that point it is too bad that Andrew M (I recognize his name from another opera forum) didn't bother to go that route and include the very few singers today who mimic the sound of the Golden Age. Shouldn't that be an important part of his long dissertation?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Yes, OMG, did you ever listen to Melchior's 70th birthday Walküre Act 1? Only worthy competition is his younger self:


Really an amazing recording.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Yes, OMG, did you ever listen to Melchior's 70th birthday Walküre Act 1? Only worthy competition is his younger self:


I cannot believe his 70 here


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

annaw said:


> I cannot believe his 70 here


I always wonder why John Culshaw didn't approach Melchior for the 1960 recording of a Tristan with Birgit Nilsson. In his book, Setting the Record Straight, Culshaw describes the trouble he had sourcing a partner for Isolde, a search which ended with Fritz Uhl. Melchior was clearly well able. What a couple Birgit Nilsson and Lauritz Melchior would have made. It's one of the big What Ifs of recording history.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> I always wonder why John Culshaw didn't approach Melchior for the 1960 recording of a Tristan with Birgit Nilsson. In his book, Setting the Record Straight, Culshaw describes the trouble he had sourcing a partner for Isolde, a search which ended with Fritz Uhl. Melchior was clearly well able. What a couple Birgit Nilsson and Lauritz Melchior would have made. It's one of the big What Ifs of recording history.


Melchior had retired from serious singing in 1955. Hence he probably wasn't considered available. I remember Culshaw saying that though he admired the voice he felt Melchior took too many liberties with the vocal line.


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## Puccini123 (May 2, 2020)

How would you define a Verdi voice? Is it a spinto voice, a dramatic voice? Or could it be either? Should a Verdi voice be metallic, dark etc? Another question that maybe is a bit off the subject: can a lyric voice be metallic? Thanks!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Puccini123 said:


> How would you define a Verdi voice? Is it a spinto voice, a dramatic voice? Or could it be either? Should a Verdi voice be metallic, dark etc? Another question that maybe is a bit off the subject: can a lyric voice be metallic? Thanks!


I think here it would be voices with the technique to sing key Verdi rep. I think spintos AND dramatic voices are what we are lacking. Especially those that can handle coloratura (so think Trovatore for all four principal roles).

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Puccini123 said:


> How would you define a Verdi voice? Is it a spinto voice, a dramatic voice? Or could it be either? Should a Verdi voice be metallic, dark etc? Another question that maybe is a bit off the subject: can a lyric voice be metallic? Thanks!


Spinto or dramatic is in my mind less important of an issue than the one about style: the legato, the forward movement of the music that a singer needs to infuse the singing. I have come to believe that many of today's singers sing note by note and, thus, the forward movement of the music (the phrasing) is lost. An example from our recent past (not the "golden age of 50 years ago": Susan Dunn -- a spinto -- did this when she started and she engaged me as a listener, Sharon Sweet -- a dramatic -- did not and she bored me because she could not give the intention of forward movement.

If one listens to Steber, Leontyne Price, Di Stefano, etc. they move the music forward because of their engaged phrasing and passionate singing.It is this forward movement that separates, per my taste, Calleja or Yoncheva from others. Are they perfect? No. Do they engage me as a listener? Yes!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Spinto or dramatic is in my mind less important of an issue than the one about style: the legato, the forward movement of the music that a singer needs to infuse the singing. I have come to believe that many of today's singers sing note by note and, thus, the forward movement of the music (the phrasing) is lost. An example from our recent past (not the "golden age of 50 years ago": Susan Dunn -- a spinto -- did this when she started and she engaged me as a listener, Sharon Sweet -- a dramatic -- did not and she bored me because she could not give the intention of forward movement.
> 
> If one listens to Steber, *Leontyne Price, Di Stefano, etc. they move the music forward because of their engaged phrasing and passionate singing.*It is this forward movement that separates, per my taste, Calleja or Yoncheva from others. Are they perfect? No. Do they engage me as a listener? Yes!


Just watching Price's last Aida from the Met. The voice maybe wasn't quite what it was (she was 57) but still electrifying!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Just watching Price's last Aida from the Met. The voice maybe wasn't quite what it was (she was 57) but still electrifying!


Yes, it is an exciting performance in spite of Miss Price being around 59 (I think). My only caveat in her performance was the delivery of the tense start of the Act III duet with Radamés "E come speri sottrarti d'Amneris a vezzi, del re al voler..." as if she were giving marching orders impatiently to the Keystone Cops...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Yes, it is an exciting performance in spite of Miss Price being around 59 (I think). My only caveat in her performance was the delivery of the tense start of the Act III duet with Radamés "E come speri sottrarti d'Amneris a vezzi, del re al voler..." as if she were giving marching orders impatiently to the Keystone Cops...


I would've left my car engine running fr a quick getaway if I was going to criticise her that particular evening with the Met crowd going wild about her! :lol:


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I would've left my car engine running fr a quick getaway if I was going to criticise her that particular evening with the Met crowd going wild about her! :lol:


Or a Mack truck engine... :devil:

It was a well deserved success that night. I found her Aida performance more satisfying than the earlier Forza telecast she did also from the Met. I am surprised that they have not published her Aida on DVD.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm guessing, when it comes to sopranos at least, most people's idea of a Verdi soprano is someone who can sing Aida, the Forza Leonora and the Requiem. But what of Gilda, what of Violetta, what of Abigaille and Lady Macbeth? Aren't these Verdi roles too? If there is such a thing as a Verdi soprano, shoudn't she be able to sing all these roles?


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm guessing, when it comes to sopranos at least, most people's idea of a Verdi soprano is someone who can sing Aida, the Forza Leonora and the Requiem. But what of Gilda, what of Violetta, what of Abigaille and Lady Macbeth? Aren't these Verdi roles too? If there is such a thing as a Verdi soprano, shoudn't she be able to sing all these roles?


Completely agree about the "other" Verdi sopranos and also the tenors and baritones. I contend that Gilda is more effective when the same singer that can get Giselda, Odabella, Abigaille, or Lucrezia Contarini gets her hands on her as Gilda is not a canary but a _grande donna_. Same with Violetta and that's Callas could be so satisfying at both Violetta, Amelia, Lady Macbeth...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Completely agree about the "other" Verdi sopranos and also the tenors and baritones. I contend that Gilda is more effective when the same singer that can get Giselda, Odabella, Abigaille, or Lucrezia Contarini gets her hands on her as Gilda is not a canary but a _grande donna_. Same with Violetta and that's Callas could be so satisfying at both Violetta, Amelia, Lady Macbeth...


Callas sang on stage, not just on record, Abigaille, Lady Macbeth, Gilda, Violetta, both Leonoras, Amelia, Elena, Elisabetta and Aida, and there's no doubt she could have sung pretty much any of Verdi's soprano roles. Maybe that is what is meant by a true Verdi soprano.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Or a Mack truck engine... :devil:
> 
> It was a well deserved success that night. I found her Aida performance more satisfying than the earlier Forza telecast she did also from the Met. I am surprised that they have not published her Aida on DVD.


Yes the voice took time to warm up in the first act but by 'O patria mil' it was fantastic. It did not present her quite at her best but a great and nostalgic evening.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm guessing, when it comes to sopranos at least, most people's idea of a Verdi soprano is someone who can sing Aida, the Forza Leonora and the Requiem. But what of Gilda, what of Violetta, what of Abigaille and Lady Macbeth? Aren't these Verdi roles too? If there is such a thing as a Verdi soprano, shoudn't she be able to sing all these roles?


Why? I can't see the logic behind that any more than a pianist should play all of Rachmaninov's concertos just because they are there.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Callas sang on stage, not just on record, Abigaille, Lady Macbeth, Gilda, Violetta, both Leonoras, Amelia, Elena, Elisabetta and Aida, and there's no doubt she could have sung pretty much any of Verdi's soprano roles. Maybe that is what is meant by a true Verdi soprano.


Why not the others then? And why should anyone else do what Callas did?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Why not the others then? And why should anyone else do what Callas did?


Not quite sure what you mean, but, as usual, you appear to miss my point entirely. Maybe if you read the whole exchange between VitellioScarpia and me, you might cotton on.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Not quite sure what you mean, but, as usual, you appear to miss my point entirely. Maybe if you read the whole exchange between VitellioScarpia and me, you might cotton on.


Actually I thought you missed the point when you assumed what people thought of as a Verdi voice. I certainly never thought that way. Especially as my introduction to Verdi was Rigoletto


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Actually I thought you missed the point when you assumed what people thought of as a Verdi voice. I certainly never thought that way. Especially as my introduction to Verdi was Rigoletto


So what? And what point are you alluding to? Over the years (around 50 now) I have read a good deal on the subject of the Verdi soprano, which is why I brought it up. In this context it's a valid point.

Let me give you an example. Criticisms of Schwarzkopf's contribution to the Verdi Requiem or to her Alice Ford usually centre around the fact that she is not a true Verdi soprano. The _true_ Verdi sopranos are considered to be Ponselle. Tebaldi, Price, all, as it happens, great Aidas, but Aida is but one role and very few sopranos (Callas being a notable exception) have tackled the full range of Verdi soprano roles, which got me thinking about what is a true Verdi soprano.

It's not as if I've come up with something new. People have been talking about true Verdi voices, and the lack of them, for some time now. Here's an article in the New York Times from 1986! https://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/26/arts/music-view-authentic-verdi-sopranos-are-in-short-supply.html Maybe the subject doesn't interest you. Fine. Then don't comment on it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> So what? And what point are you alluding to? Over the years (around 50 now) I have read a good deal on the subject of the Verdi soprano, which is why I brought it up. In this context it's a valid point.
> 
> Let me give you an example. Criticisms of Schwarzkopf's contribution to the Verdi Requiem or to her Alice Ford usually centre around the fact that she is not a true Verdi soprano. The _true_ Verdi sopranos are considered to be Ponselle. Tebaldi, Price, all, as it happens, great Aidas, but Aida is but one role and very few sopranos (Callas being a notable exception) have tackled the full range of Verdi soprano roles, which got me thinking about what is a true Verdi soprano.
> 
> It's not as if I've come up with something new. People have been talking about true Verdi voices, and the lack of them, for some time now. Here's an article in the New York Times from 1986! https://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/26/arts/music-view-authentic-verdi-sopranos-are-in-short-supply.html Maybe the subject doesn't interest you. Fine. Then don't comment on it.


The subject does interest me. Just that I'm not sure when you appear to think of what people think of as a Verdi voice. Moffo sang the parts of Gilda (very well) and Traviata and Nannetta so did she have a 'true Verdi voice'? Or is there any such thing? The guy in the NY Times is up the pole when h3 says: " It does not mean the light-coloratura voice of Oscar in ''Ballo in Maschera'' or the light lyric-coloratura of Gilda in ''Rigoletto,'' perhaps not even the heavier lyric-coloratura of Violetta in ''La Traviata.'' why on Earth not? That is his assumption not Verdi's. In Rigoletto Gilda is the leading lady. In Falstaff none of the sopranos are heavy roles. What he is meaning is the dramatic Verdi soprano. A case of assuming one size fits all. Callas of course was the exception in that she sang such a huge range of roles, which might have added to the rapid decline of her voice. Whether her (eg) Aida is preferable to (eg) Price or Tebaldi is a matter of debate.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The subject does interest me. Jus5 tha5 you are wrong when you appear to think of what people think of as a Verdi voice. Moffo sang the parts of Gilda (very well) and Traviata and Nannetta so did she have a 'true Verdi voice'? Or is there any such thing?


That's exactly the point I'm making. Is there any such thing? I'm not sure there is, but critics and Verdi lovers do talk about true Verdi sopranos, and when they do they tend to think of the Aida voice. My point is that Aida is but one role out of many.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That's exactly the point I'm making. Is there any such thing? I'm not sure there is, but critics and Verdi lovers do talk about true Verdi sopranos, and when they do they tend to think of the Aida voice. My point is that Aida is but one role out of many.


We are then in complete agreement. 

BTW apologies for saying 'you are wrong....' as I thought I had edited that out. I realised I should have said 'people are wrong who...'. Apologies if it came out personally. It wasn't meant to!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Callas sang on stage, not just on record, Abigaille, Lady Macbeth, Gilda, Violetta, both Leonoras, Amelia, Elena, Elisabetta and Aida, and there's no doubt she could have sung pretty much any of Verdi's soprano roles. Maybe that is what is meant by a true Verdi soprano.


I don't think we necessarily _need_ someone who can sing _all_ those roles, but as the ROH's recent 'money no object' Forza demonstrates we can't assemble a decent cast for Forza or Trovatore these days. I think the reason for that is that the roles in those two operas (and some of the other operas in Verdi's middle period) require singers that not only have some weight in the voice, but also have incredibly flexible voices as well. If trained correctly via methods that seek to cultivate a strong chest voice as well as a developed falsetto mechanism then singers will have the weight for those operas as well as the flexibility in their voices due to having coordinated the registers and also will have the means at their disposal to interpret Verdi's music in a meaningfully expressive way.

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I don't think we necessarily _need_ someone who can sing _all_ those roles, but as the ROH's recent 'money no object' Forza demonstrates we can't assemble a decent cast for Forza or Trovatore these days. I think the reason for that is that the roles in those two operas (and some of the other operas in Verdi's middle period) require singers that not only have some weight in the voice, but also have incredibly flexible voices as well. If trained correctly via methods that seek to cultivate a strong chest voice as well as a developed falsetto mechanism then singers will have the weight for those operas as well as the flexibility in their voices due to having coordinated the registers and also will have the means at their disposal to interpret Verdi's music in a meaningfully expressive way.
> 
> N.


I concur with The Conte that passing a certain tone weight or projection the issue is more about musical values. As I mentioned before, there is an issue of singing style/technique needed for engaging Verdi singing. A lot of singers sing notes without articulation of the text, without a real forward propulsion of the phrasing, no impetus (_slancio_), no _portamento_ (I am not talking about scooping), lack of _sostegno_, no rhythm, and lack of subtle points of phrasing (e.g., beat on the vowel instead of the consonant). Verdi is particularly demanding of these and less on the voice types provided that they _can_ sing well and without strain because of the complexity or exposed vocal line. As a contrast, Puccini "always" doubles the vocal line to sustain the singer and, thus, it makes it easier for the lazy singers to get away without those requirements. So we accept the singing because it is the orchestra that sometimes is doing their jobs...

However beautiful an instrument may be, if the music does not move with this kind of singing there is no life in the song. I may commit a capital sin here but some of the idols of the 1950's and 60's were not meeting this consistently and the singing got this lazy or listless feeling and has become the norm these days. That's why a variety of singers could all be called "Verdi singers". As I had mentioned before, it is what separated two singers that sang Verdi recently: Susan Dunn (a Verdi singer), and Sharon Sweet (not a Verdi singer).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Post deleted.......


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> While agreeing on the need for technique we would surely agree that unless the voice is actually there no amount of technique will make up for it. As Dolora Zajick said you either have a large voice or you haven't. Take Moffo who sung and enchanting Gilda with Solti and Nanetta with Karajan. One wouldn't want to see her taking on the larger roles as the voice simply wasn't a large enough instrument. In fact it was reckoned she ruined her voice through over-use as it was.


That's what I meant when I wrote "passing a certain tone weight...". It is not only size. I do not believe that Flagstad or Nilsson were "Verdi voices" in spite of their size.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I don't think we necessarily _need_ someone who can sing _all_ those roles, but as the ROH's recent 'money no object' Forza demonstrates we can't assemble a decent cast for Forza or Trovatore these days. I think the reason for that is that the roles in those two operas (and some of the other operas in Verdi's middle period) require singers that not only have some weight in the voice, but also have incredibly flexible voices as well. If trained correctly via methods that seek to cultivate a strong chest voice as well as a developed falsetto mechanism then singers will have the weight for those operas as well as the flexibility in their voices due to having coordinated the registers and also will have the means at their disposal to interpret Verdi's music in a meaningfully expressive way.
> 
> N.


I agree with you on that score. I was just commenting on the fact that the term "Verdi soprano" is perhaps misused. Maybe we should call her the Leonora soprano. Incidentally, being good at one doesn't necessarily mean you will be good at the other. The Trovatore Leonora lies much higher and requires a deal more flexibility. Tebaldi, you might recall, never sang the role in the theatre.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Why? I can't see the logic behind that any more than a pianist should play all of Rachmaninov's concertos just because they are there.


It seems logical to me to think that a singer billed as a Verdi soprano should be capable of singing all of the Verdi soprano roles. Those are the expectations I have for a Verdi baritone at least...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> It seems logical to me to think that a singer billed as a Verdi soprano should be capable of singing all of the Verdi soprano roles. Those are the expectations I have for a Verdi baritone at least...


But the soprano parts are actually quite different calling for different voices.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> But the soprano parts are actually quite different calling for different voices.


It is also true for the tenors (e.g., Luisa Miller's Rodolfo vs. Otello) and baritones (e.g., Ford vs. Amonasro).


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> But the soprano parts are actually quite different calling for different voices.


In that case there are sopranos that sing Verdi roles, but not Verdi sopranos. Only someone who can handle them all should be called a Verdi soprano.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> In that case there are sopranos that sing Verdi roles, but not Verdi sopranos. Only someone who can handle them all should be called a Verdi soprano.


That makes them a little thin on the ground I would've thought. Do you know any? Or any in history who could handle all the roles apart from Callas and she didn't sing them all?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> That makes them a little thin on the ground I would've thought. Do you know any? Or any in history who could handle all the roles apart from Callas and she didn't sing them all?


No, but she sang representative roles from each period. I've no doubt she could have sung them all.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Antonietta Stella sang in Aida, Aroldo, Attila, Ballo, Battaglia di Legnano, Don Carlo, Forza, Luisa Miller, Otello, Simon Boccanegra, Traviata, Trovatore, Vespri...which might make her the soprano with the most Verdi roles on stage.

I suppose that degree of versatility is akin to Domingo/ Bergonzi in the tenor parts and Bruson/Taddei in the baritone roles. 

Callas could have sung them all, as I think could Joan Sutherland.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Antonietta Stella sang in Aida, Aroldo, Attila, Ballo, Battaglia di Legnano, Don Carlo, Forza, Luisa Miller, Otello, Simon Boccanegra, Traviata, Trovatore, Vespri...which might make her the soprano with the most Verdi roles on stage.
> 
> I suppose that degree of versatility is akin to Domingo/ Bergonzi in the tenor parts and Bruson/Taddei in the baritone roles.
> 
> Callas could have sung them all, as I think could Joan Sutherland.


I'm not sure she'd have had a strong enough lower register for some of them.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> In that case there are sopranos that sing Verdi roles, but not Verdi sopranos. Only someone who can handle them all should be called a Verdi soprano.


By that logic, Melchior wasn't a Wagner tenor.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

amfortas said:


> By that logic, Melchior wasn't a Wagner tenor.


Which Wagner tenor role couldn't Melchior have handled?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> That makes them a little thin on the ground I would've thought. Do you know any? Or any in history who could handle all the roles apart from Callas and she didn't sing them all?


That's the point I think. Verdi soprano is not a voice type like Verdi baritone or Verdi mezzo. It doesn't exist. The roles aren't written that way.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure she'd have had a strong enough lower register for some of them.


Yes, I'm not sure. She often sounded reticent about projecting those low notes- I don't think they were actually AWOL but they were not her glory and there was a change in quality. In practice, they could be fine and increasingly she threw caution to the wind

Couple of recordings made me wonder...














I wish she had recorded Desdemona complete in the studio.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Which Wagner tenor role couldn't Melchior have handled?


Stolzing, by his own admission.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> That's the point I think. Verdi soprano is not a voice type like Verdi baritone or Verdi mezzo. It doesn't exist. The roles aren't written that way.


Exactly. Nor is "Verdi baritone" a voice type, although I see references to it constantly. There are singers who are effective in some of the various Verdi roles, that's all.

Personally, I think that most vocal categories beyond soprano, mezzo, tenor, baritone, and bass are utterly useless, and terms like Wagner soprano and Verdi baritone are particularly useless. Singers sing roles, not composers.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Exactly. Nor is "Verdi baritone" a voice type, although I see references to it constantly. There are singers who are effective in some of the various Verdi roles, that's all.
> 
> Personally, I think that most vocal categories beyond soprano, mezzo, tenor, baritone, and bass are utterly useless, and terms like Wagner soprano and Verdi baritone are particularly useless. Singers sing roles, not composers.


That may be so, but Verdi baritone is absolutely a voice type in the business, while Verdi soprano is not.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Stolzing, by his own admission.


I know that he didn't think it was right for his voice, but I refuse to believe that he couldn't have handled it well if he wanted to!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Yes, I'm not sure. She often sounded reticent about projecting those low notes- I don't think they were actually AWOL but they were not her glory and there was a change in quality. In practice, they could be fine and increasingly she threw caution to the wind
> 
> Couple of recordings made me wonder...
> 
> ...


Well of course Serafin, after conducting her in her famous *Lucia di Lammermoor* at the Garden, reckoned she should have gone on to sing Lady Macbeth. Bonynge had other ideas and she soon lost the firmness and depth of her lower register, whilst her diction became more and more mushy.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> That may be so, but Verdi baritone is absolutely a voice type in the business, while Verdi soprano is not.


Which may tell us something?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> I know that he didn't think it was right for his voice, but I refuse to believe that he couldn't have handled it well if he wanted to!


He still might have been right to some extent. I'm also sure he could have handled it but the only question is how well and how beautifully? With Wagner I feel there's a clear distinction between brighter (like Siegfried) and darker tenor roles (e.g. Tristan or Siegmund). As a result, many Wagner tenors stick with certain roles despite the fact that they technically could sing all of them. I think it's not just the power of voice that should be considered but also how well it fits the role itself, although, in general, Melchior's seems to be fit for all of them .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think we have got a bit of a thing about completeness these days. I remember the answer Richter gave Shostakovich when asked, ‘Why don’t you play all my preludes and fugues’ was ‘Why should I play the ones I don’t like?’ To me it’s a singer doesn’t fancy a role they are wise to avoid it. I think Price showed how to make a successful career by being very selective. And let’s face it who cares what people think whe you are the diva in the fur coat?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> That's the point I think. Verdi soprano is not a voice type like Verdi baritone or Verdi mezzo. It doesn't exist. The roles aren't written that way.


This gets my vote. Yes, there may be a singer here and there who can sing the wide range of Verdi soprano roles, but these are going to be rare examples. The same goes for Wagner's soprano roles (great Elsas don't tend to be great Brunhildes and vice versa).

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I think we have got a bit of a thing about completeness these days. I remember the answer Richter gave Shostakovich when asked, 'Why don't you play all my preludes and fugues' was 'Why should I play the ones I don't like?' To me it's a singer doesn't fancy a role they are wise to avoid it. I think Price showed how to make a successful career by being very selective. And let's face it who cares what people think whe you are the diva in the fur coat?


Are you wearing a fur coat as you post DavidA?!

Price was supreme in a few roles which her career mostly revolved around and it was wise of her to base it on Verdi as she had an innate sense of his style. However, I don't know if she mostly sang that rep because she suited it or if it was because she liked it. I think it depends when choosing roles and whether one likes the role or not is only one factor in the mix, there are other things to consider as well.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Are you wearing a fur coat as you post DavidA?!
> 
> Price was supreme in a few roles which her career mostly revolved around and it was wise of her to base it on Verdi as she had an innate sense of his style. However, I don't know if she mostly sang that rep because she suited it or if it was because she liked it. I think it depends when choosing roles and whether one likes the role or not is only one factor in the mix, there are other things to consider as well.
> 
> N.


yeah it's one of my thousands of mink coats I wear in the summer in the UK as it's sometimes chilly at night! You guys crease me up! :lol:

Here's a revelation - maybe she sang it because it suited her AND she liked it! How about that?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> yeah it's one of my thousands of mink coats I wear in the summer in the UK as it's sometimes chilly at night! You guys crease me up! :lol:


Good, I aim to please! :tiphat:



DavidA said:


> Here's a revelation - maybe she sang it because it suited her AND she liked it! How about that?


Absolutely, it doesn't have to be an either or. However it isn't enough that a singer enjoys the rep they sing, they should mostly sing rep that their voice suits and isn't going to damage the voice. Like much of this thread, it isn't the case that it is just one thing or another, it's a number of things that all play their part and simplistic platitudes offer little insight into the topic.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Good, I aim to please! :tiphat:
> 
> Absolutely, it doesn't have to be an either or. However it isn't enough that a singer enjoys the rep they sing, they should mostly sing rep that their voice suits and isn't going to damage the voice. Like much of this thread, it isn't the case that it is just one thing or another, it's a number of things that all play their part and simplistic platitudes offer little insight into the topic.
> 
> N.


Yes it's a pity Price didn't have some of you guys around to advise her during her career!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Yes it's a pity Price didn't have some of you guys around to advise her during her career!


I know this is meant to be a quip, a humorous remark, but where did anyone here suggest that Price made any wrong choices in her career? Quite the oppoiste, I'd have thought.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> That may be so, but Verdi baritone is absolutely a voice type in the business,


Which business is that?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Which business is that?


German opera FACHtory, perhaps! 

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I know this is meant to be a quip, a humorous remark, but where did anyone here suggest that Price made any wrong choices in her career? Quite the oppoiste, I'd have thought.


I certainly hope so! But I do believe there was a suggestion from somewhere that she shouldn't have been singing Aida!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> German opera FACHtory, perhaps!


As a synonym for Charakterbariton, a category that is about half non-Verdi roles, and depending upon who's writing about it, may not include roles like Iago and Germont. The Fach system used in European houses has a specific purpose in contracts between opera houses and singers - and that's about all it's good for.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I certainly hope so! But I do believe there was a suggestion from somewhere that she shouldn't have been singing Aida!


That was ThisisOpera on youtube. I don't think anyone here (I assume "you guys" refers to members of this forum) suggested she shouldn't have been singing Aida.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That was ThisisOpera on youtube. I don't think anyone here (I assume "you guys" refers to members of this forum) suggested she shouldn't have been singing Aida.


I certainly hope not. I think some people appear to think she might have done it better with their help though!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Which may tell us something?


What does it tell us? Tell me! Tell me!!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> As a synonym for Charakterbariton, a category that is about half non-Verdi roles, and depending upon who's writing about it, may not include roles like Iago and Germont. The Fach system used in European houses has a specific purpose in contracts between opera houses and singers - and that's about all it's good for.


Its a great tool for teachers and students too!


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well of course Serafin, after conducting her in her famous *Lucia di Lammermoor* at the Garden, reckoned she should have gone on to sing Lady Macbeth. Bonynge had other ideas and she soon lost the firmness and depth of her lower register, whilst her diction became more and more mushy.


It's an intriguing idea and Serafin arguably knew more than anyone...

The few projects she sang with other conductors after c. 1964 - e.g. Don Giovanni with Bohm, Turandot with Mehta, Otello with Cillario, Athalia with Hogwood - are uncharacteristically dramatic.

I have an easier time imagining Sutherland give bigger, more extroverted and dramatic performances in Verdi with conductors like Muti, Levine, Mehta or indeed Karajan when he was older rather than the more detailed approach of say Abbado or the older Giulini which would have added a different dimension to her singing.

The least likely scenario would possibly be collaboration with someone like Sinopoli who with his analysis and novelty and idiosyncrasies was the polar opposite of Bonynge. It probably would have been a car crash, but we can also see how new and pretty wild ideas were just the thing to rejuvenate Freni's recording career in the 80s.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> What does it tell us? Tell me! Tell me!!


Exactly what you said


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> It's an intriguing idea and Serafin arguably knew more than anyone...
> 
> The few projects she sang with other conductors after c. 1964 - e.g. Don Giovanni with Bohm, Turandot with Mehta, Otello with Cillario, Athalia with Hogwood - are uncharacteristically dramatic.
> 
> ...


Bonynge both made her as well as held her back. In my opinion all is outweighed by her having a support system travelling around with her on the lonely, lonely journey for 30 years from town to town. There is no question that it was her happiness at touring that encouraged her to keep at it. I got the feeling she was a real people person and this helped her to have a good companion with her. You get the feeling that Tebaldi found the road lonely. Breath control is perhaps the most important factor in good singing and the great Pavarotti felt she had the best of anyone he knew of. If she got that from Ricky, that alone was a huge factor. She was one of the best Leonoras in Trovatore and if you watch her video of doing Violetta, Sutherland was totally engaged in acting the role. I think her acting got better as she matured.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Bonynge both made her as well as held her back. In my opinion all is outweighed by her having a support system travelling around with her on the lonely, lonely journey for 30 years from town to town. There is no question that it was her happiness at touring that encouraged her to keep at it. I got the feeling she was a real people person and this helped her to have a good companion with her. You get the feeling that Tebaldi found the road lonely. Breath control is perhaps the most important factor in good singing and the great Pavarotti felt she had the best of anyone he knew of. If she got that from Ricky, that alone was a huge factor. She was one of the best Leonoras in Trovatore and if you watch her video of doing Violetta, Sutherland was totally engaged in acting the role. I think her acting got better as she matured.


I think the only thing you could say in disparagement of the Bonynge connection was that we certainly didn't see Sutherland with some of the great conductors of the day as much as we might have done. He was certainly a fine musician and a competent conductor but not a great one. However, the operas they recorded together generally didn't call for great conducting. Still the career was stellar. Always loved Edith Evans' remark: "One of God's pranks was to make Joan an overgrown schoolgirl and then give her a divine voice."


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I think the only thing you could say in disparagement of the Bonynge connection was that we certainly didn't see Sutherland with some of the great conductors of the day as much as we might have done. He was certainly a fine musician and a competent conductor but not a great one. However, the operas they recorded together generally didn't call for great conducting. *Still the career was stale.* Always loved Edith Evans' remark: "One of God's pranks was to make Joan an overgrown schoolgirl and then give her a divine voice."


[Sarc]If only she had had you to advise her![S/]

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Its a great tool for teachers and students too!


How so? Other than sticking the student in a box from which they might never escape?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Revitalized Classics said:


> It's an intriguing idea and Serafin arguably knew more than anyone...
> 
> The few projects she sang with other conductors after c. 1964 - e.g. Don Giovanni with Bohm, Turandot with Mehta, Otello with Cillario, Athalia with Hogwood - are uncharacteristically dramatic.
> 
> ...


Don Giovanni with Bohm? Was that a live performance or do you mean the 1959 recording under Giulini? I also wasn't aware there was a recording of her in Otello.

I find her very dramatic in her second Norma, which is, of course with Bonynge, so she could be dramatic when he was conducting as well.

The impact of Bonynge on her career is a fascinating topic and one I'm undecided on at present.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I think the only thing you could say in disparagement of the Bonynge connection was that we certainly didn't see Sutherland with some of the great conductors of the day as much as we might have done. He was certainly a fine musician and a competent conductor but not a great one. However, the operas they recorded together generally didn't call for great conducting. Still the career was stale. Always loved Edith Evans' remark: "One of God's pranks was to make Joan an overgrown schoolgirl and then give her a divine voice."


That made my morning.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> How so? Other than sticking the student in a box from which they might never escape?


If gives the teacher and student some guidelines on what should suit their voice! From my own experience it certainly made things easier for my teacher and I. Saved us time for sure, and when I started auditioning in Europe I already had all of the roles houses and agents would be expecting me to have learned and ready to go 

If a singer or teacher lets the fach system limit them, its their own fault in my opinion, but I find it to be a valuable tool.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> [Sarc]If only she had had you to advise her![S/]
> 
> N.


Sorry the computer printer out 'stellar' as 'stale' (see corrected post) which is the last thing one would have said about the great Dame Joan's career. No, she didn't need me to advise her. Just all the experts here on TC!


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> Don Giovanni with Bohm? Was that a live performance or do you mean the 1959 recording under Giulini? I also wasn't aware there was a recording of her in Otello.
> 
> I find her very dramatic in her second Norma, which is, of course with Bonynge, so she could be dramatic when he was conducting as well.
> 
> ...


Don Giovanni was live at the Met in 1967, I recall reading that she got on well with Bohm




(The pitch of that transfer sounds low to me, needs remastered. I'm not sure if it was taped via the house wire, the prompter seems pretty conspicuous)

Otello was live with the Australian Opera in 1981.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Sorry the computer printer out 'stellar' as 'stale' (see corrected post) which is the last thing one would have said about the great Dame Joan's career. No, she didn't need me to advise her. Just all the experts here on TC!


I think it's fine to criticise singers no matter how successful or not they were/are. We can all judge for ourselves by listening to them whether the criticism is warranted or not.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I think it's fine to criticise singers no matter how successful or not they were/are. We can all judge for ourselves by listening to them whether the criticism is warranted or not.
> 
> N.


Of course it is as we are the consumers. Just like supporters at the football match all know how best the team should play and how it should be managed!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> The impact of Bonynge on her career is a fascinating topic and one I'm undecided on at present.
> 
> N.


I think it was absolutely fundamental to not just her voice but her career and sanity too. I think she needed his support from the storm of criticism she aroused from people who always want to bring down someone who has had her kind of success. The incredibly spiteful reviews that sometimes greeted her recordings had to be seen to be believed.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Of course it is as we are the consumers. Just like supporters at the football match all know how best the team should play and how it should be managed!


Continuing with the sports angle, you do realize that some of the greatest minds in sports never played beyond an amateur level, yes? My favorite baseball analysts on ESPN is a 5'6 man who could never play professional sports in his wildest dreams. But he displays more baseball knowledge (and love for the game) than every former player/coach/manager on the network. Would you write him off because he never played? Or would his ESPN job be enough for you to take his opinions seriously? What if he had the same exact knowledge, but had never played AND never worked for ESPN. Would his expertise suddenly not mean as much?

Your own knowledge on the topics of singing and opera should be enough for you to gauge whether or not a poster here is qualified. I have no idea what jobs Viva, Woodduck, Conte, wkasimer etc have held, where they've sung, or if they've sung at all. But their knowledge and experience is crystal clear and has been displayed clearly over months and years on this site. Why do we need to see their resumes given that? I just don't understand


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I think it's fine to criticise singers no matter how successful or not they were/are. We can all judge for ourselves by listening to them whether the criticism is warranted or not.


As long as we keep in mind that what we hear on recordings and broadcasts may bear little resemblance to what people in the opera house see/saw or hear/heard.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Along those lines, one of the music lovers with the most keen musical mind, and superb ears, that I know, is a photographer, with zero musical training, not even self taught on a instrument. I trust his recording recommendations and musical insights better than most professional musicians I know!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Continuing with the sports angle, you do realize that some of the greatest minds in sports never played beyond an amateur level, yes? My favorite baseball analysts on ESPN is a 5'6 man who could never play professional sports in his wildest dreams. But he displays more baseball knowledge (and love for the game) than every former player/coach/manager on the network. Would you write him off because he never played? Or would his ESPN job be enough for you to take his opinions seriously? What if he had the same exact knowledge, but had never played AND never worked for ESPN. Would his expertise suddenly not mean as much?
> 
> Your own knowledge on the topics of singing and opera should be enough for you to gauge whether or not a poster here is qualified. I have no idea what jobs Viva, Woodduck, Conte, wkasimer etc have held, where they've sung, or if they've sung at all. But their knowledge and experience is crystal clear and has been displayed clearly over months and years on this site. *Why do we need to see their resumes given that?* I just don't understand


Why not? I just like to see where people are coming from. Where is the problem? You're baseball man presumably didn't mind people knowing he never played the game professionally? And would he have been considered as a professional coach to give advice to professionals? To me it is interesting to know where people are coming from. With your 5'6" guy I would look upon his opinion somewhat differently from the opinion of someone who has actually played the game at a professional level. Similarly, I take the opinion of someone who is a professional voice coach or singer in a rather different light than someone who isn't and doesn't sing themselves. That is the realm I tend to move in and as a professional singer I'm sure you do too.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Why not? I just like to see where people are coming from. Where is the problem? You're baseball man presumably didn't mind people knowing he never played the game professionally? And would he have been considered as a professional coach to give advice to professionals? To me it is interesting to know where people are coming from. With your 5'6" guy I would look upon his opinion somewhat differently from the opinion of someone who has actually played the game at a professional level. Similarly, I take the opinion of someone who is a professional voice coach or singer in a rather different light than someone who isn't and doesn't sing themselves. That is the realm I tend to move in and as a professional singer I'm sure you do too.


I thought that this was a forum for music lovers and not professional musicians. Did I miss the résumé submission page? :tiphat:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Why not? I just like to see where people are coming from. Where is the problem? You're baseball man presumably didn't mind people knowing he never played the game professionally? And would he have been considered as a professional coach to give advice to professionals? To me it is interesting to know where people are coming from. With your 5'6" guy I would look upon his opinion somewhat differently from the opinion of someone who has actually played the game at a professional level. Similarly, I take the opinion of someone who is a professional voice coach or singer in a rather different light than someone who isn't and doesn't sing themselves. That is the realm I tend to move in and as a professional singer I'm sure you do too.


Who do you expect to be posting here? Thielemann?? It seems to me that you bring up credentials as a way to discredit opinions that are different from yours, regardless of how well-put and informed the opinion may be. Of course if the opinion comes from a professional it carries additional weight, but that's not what I'm looking for on TC. I know many coaches from major houses, but I don't know of any who post on internet forums. If they did, I expect they'd want anonymity.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I thought that this was a forum for music lovers and not professional musicians. Did I miss the résumé submission page? :tiphat:


Exactly! That's what I always thought.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Who do you expect to be posting here? Thielemann?? It seems to me that you bring up credentials as a way to discredit opinions that are different from yours, regardless of how well-put and informed the opinion may be. Of course if the opinion comes from a professional it carries additional weight, but that's not what I'm looking for on TC. I know many coaches from major houses, but I don't know of any who post on internet forums. If they did, I expect they'd want anonymity.


Yes that's fine. Just when people claim some expertise on something I'm interested to know why and how they are claiming that expertise or whether it is just their opinion. Like when someone claims to know how a voice works and why vocal training is all wrong these says it's reasonable to me to ask if they have experience of singing themselves. Like if someone claims to know a lot about piano technique it's interesting to me what level they play at themselves. I always think that people who are practitioners are usually better informed than people who are theorists in my experience. I don't want to know any personal details of course. I would think that is a reasonable question.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I thought that this was a forum for music lovers and not professional musicians. Did I miss the résumé submission page? :tiphat:


I am a professional musician. There are times when I want to hear from other professionals, and many other times when I want just to hear from music lovers. Without the latter, we have no work, of course, but it's much more than that. Professional musicians can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or simply get bound up in technical things. We need to hear from simply music lovers to keep our priorities straight! I also have heard some of the deepest musical insights from my music lover friends with little to no formal musical training.

In strictly professional matters, of course I ask a professional. But that about which makes music something to love? Well, you need music lovers for that.

Professional musicians are not always music lovers, as odd as that may seem. Most professional musicians I know love to play music, but don't don't always love to be in the audience. Sometimes Classical music is just work to them, and for listening as a recreation they just want to listen to Popular Music, or nothing. Some of the professional musicians I know have the trashiest listening tastes!

I feel somewhat lucky that I learned to love listening to music _before_ I loved to play it, or compose it. I can always go back and just love listening. Not all of my colleagues can do that.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Knorf said:


> Along those lines, one of the music lovers with the most keen musical mind, and superb ears, that I know, is a photographer, with zero musical training, not even self taught on a instrument. I trust his recording recommendations and musical insights better than most professional musicians I know!


Knorf says it so well in the quote above. Music was not created for those "who know". It is really for the people who "don't know". As a youngster, I was so intimidated by those claiming they "knew what it all meant". After many years, I realized that they really didn't know any more than me and many others, and that their illumination was just snobbery.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

<Where Have The Great Big Wagner Voices Gone?> https://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/library/Final Chapter Moravcsik v2 Comments.pdf


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

After reading all this, I start doubting, if I became an opera singer myself, Verdi or not Verdi, if I were blessed with a musical talent.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> After reading all this, I start doubting, if I became an opera singer myself, Verdi or not Verdi, if I were blessed with a musical talent.


If I were a singer with some level or another of talent and read that article I would pivot into another profession, and quick. The pickings and chances are just too slim in the face of the mountains to climb associated with training expenses, time and effort. And that’s if you win the lottery of lucky, to which one would need to add travel expenses, agent fees, etc. The stark reality is that the investment is increasingly unrecoverable particularly in a society increasingly hostile to or uninterested in high European culture and where the cost of living everywhere, especially in the cultural capitals, has become prohibitive.


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