# Tchaikovsky's Pathétique sounds like a ballet?



## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

After many years, I recently relistened to his 6th Symphony, also known as the Pathétique Symphony, and I found it to be sounding somewhat ballet-like. I am not quite sure why, maybe it's those relatively short but quick fragments that occur, and never reoccur properly, throughout that gives the symphony this sort of a feeling as though it was combined using various short musical ideas, which is what you usually see in pieces written for ballet. Mahler's symphonies also contain various elements that never repeat the same way, but in his symphonies they feel like as though they are just spontanenous emotional (but marvelous!) outbursts, whereas with Tchaikovksy they are longer and come across as more calculated and inteded if that makes sense.

Any thoughts or am I just thinking too muhc of Tchaikovsky as a ballet composer?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

When Tchaikovsky asked his friend and respected colleague Sergei Taneyev for his thoughts on his recently completed Fourth Symphony, Taneyev said pretty much the same thing: that there was much that sounded like ballet music. And the critic Gerald Abraham opined that the fragmentary quality you note is a general feature of 19th and early 20th century Russian music. He attributed it - dubiously and offensively IMO - to a "peculiarity of the Russian creative mind … its inability to conceive organic wholes." He said that "Russian symphonic music is full of marvelous passages but it seldom achieves perfection of form except on the smallest scale." Daniel Zhitomirsky (20thc Soviet musicologist) had a more positive take. He claimed that Tchaikovsky's sonata form movements were organized by an idiosyncratic but logical dramatic principle:

_"Tchaikovsky tended to group his material in sonata outline in such a way that the latter became a periodic alternation of contrasting thematic sections. The first section associated with the main theme is steadily enlivened in reiteration with the result that the very contrast of the themes is consistently sharpened."_

In the first movement of the _Pathetique_ this is taken to an extreme: The first theme isn't brought back in its original form and the recapitulation starts with the second theme, its onset being the movement's most extreme juxtaposition. If one thinks of the symphony as a whole in dramatic terms, this is a good way to create an unresolved problem in the "plot," something that must be responded to later.

Anyway, in response to your question: Tchaikovsky's symphonies, especially the first movements, do have extremes of contrast that suggest balletic drama, but they are part of a systematic strategy (the one Zhitomirsky describes) that works in symphonic terms as well. I think your observation on the difference between Tchaikovsky's approach to this kind of dramatic contrast and Mahler's are valid. Tchaikovsky is more systematic about it and the contrasting sections are often longer. What Tchaikovsky was doing was picking up on Beethoven's most dramatic sonata form patterns (e.g. Fifth Symphony, _Appassionata_) and exaggerating the levels of contrast still further.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It has probably been done as ballet, or at least sections of it. The 3rd symphony (sans first movement) is the 3rd part "Diamonds" of the Jewels Ballet by Balanchine; maybe findable at youtube.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewels_(ballet)#Diamonds


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Having been familiar with Tchaikovsky's _Swan Lake_ and _Sleeping Beauty_ ballet music (very symphonically dramatic stuff!) prior to ever hearing one of the symphonies, when I _did _first encounter the 6th I was struck by the sense of similarity to the ballets in terms of orchestration touches, but never thought of the music as balletic, with the possible exception of that second movement, albeit a ballet in 5/4 time to which Dave Brubeck and Paul Desmond would likely do as well dancing as will the formally trained ballet dancers.

That third movement would, of course, be exhausting to dance, at least for me. I'll "wall flower" for that segment. As for the finale? I don't know what might occur choreography-wise during such music, but I do imagine the ending of the story will have a stage filled with prone (presumably dead) dancers. Would we even want them to take a bow after that?

Apparently, the New York City Ballet's Tchaikovsky Festival of 1981 (at the New York State Theater) closed with a one-time only joint performance of George Balanchine's and Jerome Robbins's choreographic treatment of Tchaikovsky's ''Pathetique'' Symphony.
Only the final three movements were presented.

Here's a link to the _New York Times_ article of 1981 covering the event.

You may find information here, too:

https://www.nycballet.com/discover/ballet-repertory/symphony-no-6-pathetique/


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> What Tchaikovsky was doing was picking up on Beethoven's


Actually, everybody owes everything to Beethoven.


EdwardBast said:


> It's just another twitch in your reflexive everybody owes everything to Mozart fantasy.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Actually, everybody owes everything to Beethoven.


The difference is that Tchaikovsky _actually said it_. In the same letter to Taneyev I mentioned above, he said that his Fourth Symphony was just an imitation of Beethoven's Fifth.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I have a theory as to why you now think that Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6 sounds like ballet music.

Simple association. Some of Tchaikovsky's ballet music is very popular, and very catchy, and very well-known. 

Sleeping Beauty, The Nutcracker, Swan Lake, and Symphony No. 6 were all written by the same composer, so there are musical elements that they all share. So NOW Symphony 6 sounds like his ballet music to you.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

this ballet music (K.345) sounds like a symphony







EdwardBast said:


> The difference is that...


It's just a joke (#5), btw.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> ...
> What Tchaikovsky was doing was picking up on Beethoven's most dramatic sonata form patterns...





hammeredklavier said:


> Actually, everybody owes everything to Beethoven.





EdwardBast said:


> The difference is that Tchaikovsky _actually said it_. In the same letter to Taneyev I mentioned above, he said that his Fourth Symphony was just an imitation of Beethoven's Fifth.


I recall reading somewhere ... before the fog of old age mental issues overwhelmed my faculties ... was it in _Mad Magazine_ perhaps that I read it? ... I seem to recall a letter in which J.S. Bach chastised one of the sons ... was it C.P.E. or J.C.F.? ... or W.T.F.? ... in any case a letter chastising the son for writing a Sinfonia in C minor which was an imitation of Taneyev's Symphony No. 4. The Bach letter goes on to suggest that all imitations of musical works, especially symphonies in C minor, should properly be imitations of Beethoven's Fifth. And -- and I'm sure I have this on good authority, because somebody told me sometime somewhere -- upon finishing that letter to his son old Bach immediately began work on his Mass in B Minor which, we all now know, is an imitation of the _Missa Solemnis_ by ... yes, you guessed it ... You Know Who, aka Ludwig van.

Which certainly confirms the notion that "everybody owes everything to Beethoven." Is there even any debate possible?

Uh ... where am I? ...


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> The difference is that Tchaikovsky _actually said it_. In the same letter to Taneyev I mentioned above, he said that his Fourth Symphony was just an imitation of Beethoven's Fifth.


Taking a composer's transparence against him incentivises secrecy and public denials. I don't know about you, but I find it very underwhelming how composers speak about their influences only in vague terms, or dismissively, if they mention them at all. It's the front and myth of independent creation they put up versus the sincerity of others. Not to mention the suspect matter of unconscious drawing on something (kleptomnesia) being considered better than conscious drawing...


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## OCEANE (10 mo ago)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Taking a composer's transparence against him incentivises secrecy and public denials. I don't know about you, but I find it very underwhelming how composers speak about their influences only in vague terms, or dismissively, if they mention them at all. It's the front and myth of independent creation they put up versus the sincerity of others. Not to mention the suspect matter of unconscious drawing on something (kleptomnesia) being considered better than conscious drawing...


Tchaikovsky's music is so dramatic in nature and you could distinguish in minutes. It's no surprise if one finds his symphony sounds like ballet or vice verse. Nevertheless, this is probably only the initial impression and can be very superficial. The underlying meaning/content in symphony no.6 is so profound that you wont find in this ballet music ..... except some parts of Swan Lake.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I'd probably say that the 6th is the least "balletic/theatrical" of his symphonies although the contrasts in the 1st movement are among the most extreme. 
A difference to e.g. Beethoven and this was one reason why some conservative critics found Tchaikovsky's symphonies too theatrical or superficial (with the possible exception of #6) is that Beethoven often has a stronger (or more obvious) unity, such as deriving the contrasting material from the main motives (op.2/1, Appassionata, 5th symphony etc.) and generally a stronger structural coherence. 
With Tchaikovsky the contrasts seem to either threaten the integrity or in any case are "external" to the form, not developed within and in congruence with the structure (at least not to the extent this is done in Beethoven or others). E.g. the "chorale" in 6,i is a symbol taken from the outside, like the Alphorn in Brahms's 1st. Or the "fate motive" fanfare in 4 is never developed in a musical sense; it's like a theatrical cue for the villain. Also, the overall "logic" seems often a bit strange. The brilliant pizzicato scherzo might be my favorite movement from the 4th but it has nothing at all to do with the "fate" idea supposed to pervade the symphony and the reappearance of the fateful fanfare in the bustling finale seems also a bit ad hoc. The corresponding motive in the 5th is a bit more logically developed but here we have the odd feature that the finale starts with an apotheotic major version of that theme (also something often done in ballet) but then we get another 10 min or so of "wild hunt" in the minor mode, what's that about?
I am not saying that all this is "bad", it's obviously very gripping and effective music but that charge of somewhat superficial theatrics is not entirely unfounded, I think.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd probably say that the 6th is the least "balletic/theatrical" of his symphonies although the contrasts in the 1st movement are among the most extreme.
> A difference to e.g. Beethoven and this was one reason why some conservative critics found Tchaikovsky's symphonies too theatrical or superficial (with the possible exception of #6) is that *Beethoven often has a stronger (or more obvious) unity, such as deriving the contrasting material from the main motives (op.2/1, Appassionata, 5th symphony etc.) and generally a stronger structural coherence.
> With Tchaikovsky the contrasts seem to either threaten the integrity or in any case are "external" to the form,* not developed within and in congruence with the structure (at least not to the extent this is done in Beethoven or others). E.g. the "chorale" in 6,i is a symbol taken from the outside, like the Alphorn in Brahms's 1st. Or the "fate motive" fanfare in 4 is never developed in a musical sense; it's like a theatrical cue for the villain. Also, the overall "logic" seems often a bit strange. The brilliant pizzicato scherzo might be my favorite movement from the 4th but it has nothing at all to do with the "fate" idea supposed to pervade the symphony and the reappearance of the fateful fanfare in the bustling finale seems also a bit ad hoc. The corresponding motive in the 5th is a bit more logically developed but here we have the odd feature that the finale starts with an apotheotic major version of that theme (also something often done in ballet) but then we get another 10 min or so of "wild hunt" in the minor mode, what's that about?
> I am not saying that all this is "bad", it's obviously very gripping and effective music but *that charge of somewhat superficial theatrics is not entirely unfounded, I think.*


Threaten the form or external to it? No, the unintegrated contrast and its intensification _is_ the form for Tchaikovsky. Which is why I tend to agree with your final statement about superficial theatrics. Clearly Tchaikovsky's view of what is important in Beethoven was very different than ours. When he said he was copying the basic idea of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony in the Fourth, he was using the term Idee (he wrote it that way, capitalized) as A.B. Marx did - as an overriding poetic conception that unifies the work. (He actually cribbed his interpretation of Beethoven's Fifth from Marx.) But the unity was more poetic than musically thematic. It was Rachmaninoff among the Russians who added the organic thematic unity to Tchaikovsky's sonata formula. In nearly all of his mature works the second themes and other thematic material is derived from the mottoes and first themes.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> Having been familiar with Tchaikovsky's _Swan Lake_ and _Sleeping Beauty_ ballet music (very symphonically dramatic stuff!) prior to ever hearing one of the symphonies, when I _did _first encounter the 6th I was struck by the sense of similarity to the ballets in terms of orchestration touches, but never thought of the music as balletic, with the possible exception of that second movement, albeit a ballet in 5/4 time to which Dave Brubeck and Paul Desmond would likely do as well dancing as will the formally trained ballet dancers.
> 
> That third movement would, of course, be exhausting to dance, at least for me. I'll "wall flower" for that segment. As for the finale? I don't know what might occur choreography-wise during such music, but I do imagine the ending of the story will have a stage filled with prone (presumably dead) dancers. Would we even want them to take a bow after that?
> 
> ...


The Balanchine Estate lists 15 ballets to the music of Tchaikovsky. I believe, however, the list is limited to those that can be licensed. There were certainly others, such as the Adagio Lamentoso to the 4th movement of the Pathetique.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> When he said he was copying the basic idea of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony in the Fourth, he was using the term Idee (he wrote it that way, capitalized) as A.B. Marx did - as an overriding poetic conception that unifies the work. (He actually cribbed his interpretation of Beethoven's Fifth from Marx.) But the unity was more poetic than musically thematic.


I think the problem with identifying "thematic unity" in any work from the point of view of the listener is that, considerable subjectivity comes into it.
Tristan und Isolde prelude to Act 1: 



 (G#-A-A#-B), prelude to Act 3: 



 (G-Ab-Bb-C)
Is this diatonic theme of the Act 3 prelude related to the chromatic theme of the Act 1 prelude? We might say 'yes', but they are different themes, in scales degrees.
Likewise, what makes the 4-note motifs in the subsequent movements of Beethoven's 5th symphony special compared to the 4-note motifs of his other works? (I'm not necessarily saying they're not. It's just something for us to think about)


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think the problem with identifying "thematic unity" in any work from the point of view of the listener is that, considerable subjectivity comes into it.
> Tristan und Isolde prelude to Act 1:
> 
> 
> ...


Donald Francis Tovey, in his _Essays in Musical Analysis_, made this the basis of an argument against the significance of thematic unity through the four-note opening figure in the Fifth Symphony. He quipped that those who thought this unity a "profound discovery" didn't go far enough, because

"it conclusively proves that the Sonata Appassionata, the G major Pianoforte Concerto, [and] the Quartet op. 74 … all belong to the C minor Symphony, for the same rhythmic figure pervades them too."

The flaws in this argument are pretty obvious: That Beethoven used the figure in other works is irrelevant in and of itself; It's the prominence with which the figure is used and the salience of the structural contexts in which it sounds in a given work that matters. In the Fifth it dominates the climactic passages of the first movement and returns at the most crucial juncture, the attacca transition to the finale, as well as in a prominent finale theme. More important, I would say that the figure's treatment in the Appassionata actually tends to refute Tovey's argument, since in Op. 57 its treated quite like it is in the Fifth - as an antagonistic force that plays a critical role in all the movements.


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