# Best Quotations



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

I spent an idle afternoon discovering, to my surprise, that Debussy quotes Tristan und Isolde in the middle of his _Golliwog's Cakewalk_ (bar 61 or so). I was then also surprised to find that Mendelssohn beat Wagner to his Grail theme in _Parsifal_ by quoting the 'Dresden Amen' in his Symphony No. 5, first movement (bar 33 and on).

Anyone got any other interesting or surprising examples of musical quotations -not necessarily involving Wagner, though?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I think that Wagner's Tristan prelude contains a lot of quotations from his Germanic predecessors. I can hear the openings of Beethoven's Pathetique sonata and C sharp minor string quartet in it. And Mendelssohn's A minor symphony contains an interesting chromatic section that I think might possibly have inspired Wagner.



hammeredklavier said:


> *[ 5:05 ~ 5:37 ]
> Piano Sonata No. 15 in F Major, K. 533: II. Andante*
> Look how the passage slowly and repeatedly ascends in stepwise motion with chromaticism, and eventually upon reaching the climax on dominant 7th, falls in a quick arpeggio, and goes to the recap the opening material.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

I'm not sure if it's the "best" quotation but in his work _Sinfonia_, *Berio* quotes, among others, a passage from Beethoven's _Pastoral_ symphony.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

TalkingHead said:


> I'm not sure if it's the "best" quotation but in his work _Sinfonia_, *Berio* quotes, among others, a passage from Beethoven's _Pastoral_ symphony.


To any particular purpose or point, do you happen to know?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^Berio quoted from close to a hundred works in the Sinfonia; it’s pretty crazy.

One of the best examples of a composer quoting another in the spirit of parody or mockery is Bartok quoting Shostakovich’s Leningrad symphony in the 4th movement of his Concerto for Orchestra. He was mad that Shostakovich’s “trite, noisy propaganda music” was more popular than his own brand of folk music, so Bartok made the Shostakovich theme sound hilariously droll and out of place before submerging it with one of his own folk-inspired themes.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

My favorite quotations are in Shostakovich 15. There's so many of them, from very disparate sources (Tristan one of them), and they're all delightfully enigmatic. The Tristan chords in the Berg _Lyric Suite_ are really cool too, considering the historical context and background of that work.

There's that self-quotation at the end of Mahler 9 too, from the _Kindertotenlieder_, and the _Tod und Verklärung_ nod in the Strauss _4 letzte Lieder_. Both very moving and done for very different reasons than the Shostakovich/Berg.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Britten's Spring Symphony and 'Soommer is i coomen in' and Greensleeves in Holst's St. Paul's Suite. Oh, and Beethoven's 9th in Tippet's 3rd symphony and not just a brief quote but several bars of full score.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I just listened to Felix Mendelssohn's Octet and it quoted "And He shall reign" from the Hallelujah chorus in the finale!


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Schnittke String Quartet No. 3 is semi-famous for its quotations, as is his Symphony No. 1.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

ORigel said:


> I just listened to Felix Mendelssohn's Octet and it quoted "And He shall reign" from the Hallelujah chorus in the finale!


That's a good one. I hadn't noticed it before!


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

MrMeatScience said:


> My favorite quotations are in Shostakovich 15. There's so many of them, from very disparate sources (Tristan one of them), and they're all delightfully enigmatic. The Tristan chords in the Berg _Lyric Suite_ are really cool too, considering the historical context and background of that work.
> 
> There's that self-quotation at the end of Mahler 9 too, from the _Kindertotenlieder_, and the _Tod und Verklärung_ nod in the Strauss _4 letzte Lieder_. Both very moving and done for very different reasons than the Shostakovich/Berg.


Don't forget William tell and Mahler 5


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> Britten's Spring Symphony and 'Soommer is i coomen in' and Greensleeves in Holst's St. Paul's Suite. Oh, and Beethoven's 9th in Tippet's 3rd symphony and not just a brief quote but several bars of full score.


Whereabouts in the 3rd? (Just to save me having to play the whole damn'd 55 minutes of it to find it!)


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

ORigel said:


> I just listened to Felix Mendelssohn's Octet and it quoted "And He shall reign" from the Hallelujah chorus in the finale!


That same quotation is at the end of Mahler's 1st.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> Britten's Spring Symphony and 'Soommer is i coomen in' and Greensleeves in Holst's St. Paul's Suite. Oh, and Beethoven's 9th in Tippet's 3rd symphony and not just a brief quote but several bars of full score.


See, if I was going to mention Britten, I'd cite his self-quotation of Lucretia in Albert Herring. 

PS. Also, his quote from the Ring in his Sword in the Stone suite.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think that Wagner's Tristan prelude contains a lot of quotations from his Germanic predecessors. I can hear the openings of *Beethoven's Pathetique sonata first movement* and A minor string quartet slow movement in it. And Mendelssohn's A minor symphony contains an interesting chromatic section that I think might possibly have inspired Wagner.


I've thought this myself, never heard anyone else say it.

This one is possibly coincidence but it has been noted the "Ode to Joy" theme strongly resembles a theme from a youthful Mozart piece: 



 (starting about 1:00).


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

BenG said:


> That same quotation is at the end of Mahler's 1st.


Also hadn't noticed before! I wonder if that's a real, deliberate quotation, or just a sequence of notes that happens to match, though. I mean, he never seems to close out the quote before taking the up-down note sequence off in new directions. Good call, though, anyway!


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Between Schumann and Brahms Clara's theme is certainly one of the most quoted.

http://www.ericsams.org/index.php/on-music/essays/on-brahms/114-brahms-and-his-clara-themes


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

A fascinating piece made up of nothing but quotations is by Bernd Alois Zimmermann, _Music for the Banquets of King Ubu_. It's quite extraordinary!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Whereabouts in the 3rd? (Just to save me having to play the whole damn'd 55 minutes of it to find it!)


 Some fun AB, listen from 33 mins in, the actual quote is just a bit after this...see if you can spot it....:lol: btw if you don't know this symphony, keep listening for a devastating blues lament for soprano solo.


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## Guest (May 25, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> To any particular purpose or point, do you happen to know?


I think the best answer to your question is what Berio himself wrote: http://www.lucianoberio.org/node/1494?1683069894=1


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

isorhythm said:


> I've thought this myself, never heard anyone else say it.
> This one is possibly coincidence but it has been noted the "Ode to Joy" theme strongly resembles a theme from a youthful Mozart piece:
> 
> 
> ...


You said it to me once though. =) There's also a book discussing it: "Cooke gives later examples from Spontini and Liszt, and regards Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata as Wagner's most probable unconscious source." (A Chord in Time: The Evolution of the Augmented Sixth from Monteverdi to Mahler, By Mark R. Ellis, Page 211)

Regarding Mozart-Beethoven, I could talk about the endings of the Die Zauberflote overture and the scherzo from Eroica symphony, or the Adagio and Fugue K546, and the Op.111 sonata first movement (the 3-note gesture ending on the leading tone in minor in both cases), the F#-G-Ab-F-G-C, and the inverted "Fate" motif in Fantasie K475 and Appassionata sonata. I don't know why but I don't find them all that mind-blowing anymore, perhaps because I've known them for so long, they feel like "assumed knowledge" now. So I just wanted to talk of examples involving Wagner in this thread, as the OP did.






I think the way Fantasie K475 opens, by "searching for the right key", also seems to be conceptually in vogue with this 'Germanic practice'.
Btw, I hate that recording of Misericordias domini K222 you linked; I think it's played too fast, not doing justice to the solemnness, gravity of the piece.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Here's some of what I think as Handel-Mozart connections (of varying degrees, from strong to weak):

Händel: Messiah - 26a. Surely He hath borne our griefs
Mozart Litaniae Lauretanae de Beate Maria Virgine, K. 195 - III. Salus infirmorum [15:23]

Händel: Israel in Egypt - 24. The people shall hear 
Mozart - Mass in C minor K427 - Qui tollis

Händel: Messiah - 26b. And with His stripes we are healed (or the A minor fugue of JS Bach's WTC II)
Mozart - Requiem - 2. Kyrie

Handel Messiah - Ev' ry Valley Shall Be Exalted
Mozart Missa longa K262 - Sanctus
Mozart Litaniae de venerabili altaris sacramento, K 243 - II. Panis vivus

Händel: Messiah - 45. Hallelujah (".. King of kings.." ) 
Mozart - Missa brevis in D minor, K65 (".. cu-jus re- .." )
Mozart - Vesperae de dominica, K321 ( ".. Glo-ri-a pa .. ")
Missa brevis in C major, K220 "spatzenmesse"

In addition, I think the way Mozart ends some of his vocal works jubilantly with "dona nobis pacem" is aesthetically in vogue with "Händel: Messiah - 13. For unto us a child is born"
Mozart - Missa brevis in D major, K 194
Mozart - Missa brevis in B flat major, K 275



hammeredklavier said:


> I think Mozart also made a strong impression on Haydn since Haydn referenced Mozart's work many times after Mozart's death. ("... it is interesting that, having influenced Haydn, Bach (CPE) later allowed himself to be influenced by the younger composer, just as Haydn later influenced and was influenced by Mozart. ...")
> 
> Compare the string figures in measure 9 of Confitebor tibi domine from Mozart Vesperae solennes de confessore (1780)
> with those of Gloria from Haydn Schöpfungsmesse (1801)
> ...





hammeredklavier said:


> I think these sections show Emanuel's influence on Mozart:
> 
> C.P.E. Bach - Symphony In F Major Wq. 183/3
> Mozart - Symphony No. 40 In G Minor K 550
> ...


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Maybe a quotation, maybe not but this:




sounds to me an awful lot like this:


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Ives's Second Symphony includes quotations from Brahms's Second Symphony, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde and Die Walküre, Bach, Bruckner, Dvorak's the "New World" Symphony, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, as well as "America, the Beautiful," "Turkey in the Straw," "Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean," "Camptown Races," "Bringing in the Sheaves," "When I survey the Wondrous Cross," college songs, reveille, and various others. 

The climax of the second movement of his String Quartet No. 2 is another example of Ives quoting liberally from others. In measures 90 and 91, the first and second violins quote from the third movement of Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony; in measures 94 and 95, the violas and cellos quote a fragment of "Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean"; in measures 96 and 97, the second violin quotes the beginning of the "Ode to Joy" theme; in measure 98, the first violin plays a few stressed notes of "Marching through Georgia." 

Elliott Carter for one didn't approve of Ives' practice. "It is to me disappointing that Ives too frequently was unable and unwilling to invent musical material that expressed his own vision authentically, instead of relying on the material of others."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*[ 0:46 ]*


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Ives's Second Symphony includes quotations from Brahms's Second Symphony, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde and Die Walküre, Bach, Bruckner, Dvorak's the "New World" Symphony, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, as well as "America, the Beautiful," "Turkey in the Straw," "Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean," "Camptown Races," "Bringing in the Sheaves," "When I survey the Wondrous Cross," college songs, reveille, and various others.
> 
> The climax of the second movement of his String Quartet No. 2 is another example of Ives quoting liberally from others. In measures 90 and 91, the first and second violins quote from the third movement of Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony; in measures 94 and 95, the violas and cellos quote a fragment of "Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean"; in measures 96 and 97, the second violin quotes the beginning of the "Ode to Joy" theme; in measure 98, the first violin plays a few stressed notes of "Marching through Georgia."
> 
> Elliott Carter for one didn't approve of Ives' practice. "It is to me disappointing that Ives too frequently was unable and unwilling to invent musical material that expressed his own vision authentically, instead of relying on the material of others."


Ives snuck _Columbia Gem of the Ocean_ into almost every piece he ever wrote. It may be that Ives anticipated "musical collage". Ives loved the sound of amateur musicians playing flat, off-key and missing the notes. He was at a football game and heard two marching bands playing at once and loved the sound of it. Creating melody wasn't what Ives was after as much as he wanted to create a sound that reflected his own musical vision which was tied to the sounds of his own New England experience. I went to a church service once (Methodist) and a woman who was very nice was singing the hymns loudly and off-key against the choir and organist (maybe she was tone-deaf). I was thinking that Ives would have loved it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*[ 9:17 ]*









"... The rewriting of the main theme at the opening of the recapitulation, however, reveals that Schubert had Mozart's famous C major Quintet in mind all along. The recapitulation, in which the detached mounting arpeggio that is a principal element of Mozart's opening now appears (introduced at the end of Schubert's development and continued into the reprise), allows us to see that two other elements of Mozart's structure were already present in Schubert: the decorative and expressive turn is found in both works at the fourth bar of the opening phrase, and Mozart's eccentric five-bar rhythmic structure has been retained but adapted by Schubert to a ten-bar structure. The rhythm, and this is typical of Schubert, is basically similar to his classical model but stretched out to be twice as long. In addition, Mozart shortens a later appearance of his main theme in the exposition to the more orthodox four-bar groups (the fifth bar of each original phrase overlapping with the next), and Schubert obediently follows suit in the counter-statement of his main theme by shortening his ten bars to seven-bar groups (actually eight-bar overlapping phrases). Essentially, even in the last of his great instrumental works, we can see that Schubert retained the conventional Viennese models (Mozart's above all) and increased their size, giving them the greater sense of space that was Schubert's most extraordinary innovation, and which would have a signal effect on the future history of music in the work of both Brahms and Bruckner."
(Schubert the Progressive: History, Performance Practice, Analysis, Edited by Brian Newbould, Page 5)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> Maybe a quotation, maybe not but this:
> 
> 
> 
> sounds to me an awful lot like this:


Also look at:
Michael Haydn Symphony No.28 in C major: 3. Fugato. Vivace assai (1784)
Mozart Symphony No. 41 in C Major, K. 551, "Jupiter": IV. Allegro (1788)

Johann Michael Haydn (1737-1806) - Requiem in C minor (1771):
ex lux perpetua , quam olim abrahae
Mozart Requiem Mass in D Minor, K. 626 (1791):
ex lux perpetua , quam olim abrahae

Also compare the parts of the Mozart requiem finished by Sussmayer and Levin:
agnus dei , lacrimosa , amen
with spatzenmesse K220 (1775):
qui tollis , crucifixus ,
and misericordias domini K222 (1775)

These "angular, pointy" arpeggiated, syncopated figures are "signature gestures" of Salzburg Catholic music (They're not really found in Joseph Haydn or the Bach Brothers):
Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - Missa in C - Kyrie
Johann Michael Haydn (1737-1806) - Requiem in C minor (1771) - requiem aeternam
Mozart - Missa brevis in D major, K 194 - sanctus (1774)
Requiem Mass in D Minor, K. 626: requiem aeternam

On youtube, there's one guy named K A Nesiah who goes around saying that Beethoven's seid umschlungen (9th symphony) was Beethoven's way of nodding his hat at Mozart:
Missa in honorem sanctissimae trinitatis K167 agnus dei (1773).
I'm not really sure about the validity of his claim.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

*Beethoven quoting Mozart*

I find it to be such a positive thing, for a composer to assume and claim such freedom as to take what he wants from others, doing what he wants with it, to such great benefit. Beethoven only followed what logically made sense, taking this for instance for his Symphony 9 and this for his Symphony 3 and then creating a revolutionary, unparalleled style with twists and wonder. It's not what he stole that was important, it's what brand new he ended up making out of it, it was simply a catalyst to a whole new form, development, and rhythm of music for Beethoven. My point being, I think assuming this freedom of borrowing as a composer will really open doors in your mind--Do you recall the phrase "Why reinvent the wheel?" Humankind eventually made automobiles and airplanes but they didn't have to reinvent the wheel to get there. This was a part of Beethoven's power; not taking Mozart, but taking the power of everyone he learned from. You may not be able to publish music that is melodically similar to others, but you can still compose, a truer and rawer form of music with a heart that doesn't limit itself from what it knows deep down sounds right. Yes the melodies in these examples are the same, but the music is very different! He used these older compositions as a catalyst and inspiration for his own ideas, they enabled him to be so inventive where he couldn't be from scratch. I guess that's called inspiration.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Berio quoted from close to a hundred works in the Sinfonia; it's pretty crazy.
> 
> One of the best examples of a composer quoting another in the spirit of parody or mockery is Bartok quoting Shostakovich's Leningrad symphony in the 4th movement of his Concerto for Orchestra. He was mad that Shostakovich's "trite, noisy propaganda music" was more popular than his own brand of folk music, so Bartok made the Shostakovich theme sound hilariously droll and out of place before submerging it with one of his own folk-inspired themes.


Yes but where is the timestamp for that?


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

mikeh375 said:


> Some fun AB, listen from 33 mins in, the actual quote is just a bit after this...see if you can spot it....:lol: btw if you don't know this symphony, keep listening for a devastating blues lament for soprano solo.


Ah yes. 33'40". I had forgotten. I do have all his symphonies, but I'm afraid they tend to get a bit mixed up in my head. I prefer his operas!


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

One quotation that isn't always picked up on is Tchaikovsky, in the andante cantabile second movement of his fifth symphony, clearly lifts the melody from John Denver's excellent folk/rock/pop ballad, Annie's song. Listen closely and you'll see what Tchaikovsky has done (he alters it a little, possibly in an attempt to cover his tracks).


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## Dima (Oct 3, 2016)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I spent an idle afternoon discovering, to my surprise, that Debussy quotes Tristan und Isolde in the middle of his _Golliwog's Cakewalk_ (bar 61 or so). I was then also surprised to find that Mendelssohn beat Wagner to his Grail theme in _Parsifal_ by quoting the 'Dresden Amen' in his Symphony No. 5, first movement (bar 33 and on).
> 
> Anyone got any other interesting or surprising examples of musical quotations -not necessarily involving Wagner, though?


The key moment of the 1st symphony of Rachmaninov is the motive of "fatal love" from Tristan and Isolde of Wagner, which will sound the entire symphony in similar form. It appears in the first part, but most of all you can hear in the fourth part.
Here, you can listen how sounds Wagner and Rachmaninov motives connected together:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xIW4_u3Ii9peyUTdO5LchPVaZrTqJcs7


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

"The Internationale" has a nice walk-on cameo moment in John Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".
Arise, ye tenors, from your slumbers...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> That's a good one. I hadn't noticed it before!


The Dona Nobis Pacem from the Missa Solemnis also quotes "And He Shall Reign . ."

The descending thirds figuration that opens Brahms' Fourth, was used in the Hammerklavier Sonata.

Near steals (similar shapes) include the Purcell theme Britten used in his Young Person's Guide, the opening measures of Mozart's c minor Serenade, the opening of Act Two of The Midsummer Marriage, and (almost) the opening of the finale of Brahms d minor piano concerto.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Well another example would be the French national anthem, which (unknowingly?) quotes a theme from the first movement of Mozart's 25th piano concerto. I remember the first time I heard the Mozart i thought something sounded familiar. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

MarkW said:


> The Dona Nobis Pacem from the Missa Solemnis also quotes "And He Shall Reign . ."


Also, another interesting fact people often overlook:
Mass in C major, K. 257 "Credo"
"Its name derives from the long setting of the Credo, in which the word "Credo" is repeatedly sung in a two-note motif. It thus joins a tradition of so-called "Credo Masses", including Mozart's own _Kleine Credo Messe_ (K. 192) and Beethoven's later _Missa solemnis_."





*[ 8:03 ]*




*[ 5:29 ]*


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I'll add this to the list of Mozartian references in J. Haydn:

Mozart Symphony No. 25 in G Minor, K. 183: I. Allegro con brio (1773)
J. Haydn - Hob XXII:12 - Mass in B flat major "Theresienmesse" - agnus dei (1799)



hammeredklavier said:


> These "angular, pointy" arpeggiated, syncopated figures are "signature gestures" of Salzburg Catholic music (They're not really found in Joseph Haydn or the Bach Brothers):
> Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - Missa in C - Kyrie
> Johann Michael Haydn (1737-1806) - Requiem in C minor (1771) - requiem aeternam
> Mozart - Missa brevis in D major, K 194 - sanctus (1774)
> Requiem Mass in D Minor, K. 626: requiem aeternam


Haydn Michael Missa in honorem sanctae Ursulae - kyrie (1793) 







They're used sparingly in this one, but I think the Salzburg masters' penchant for this sort of off-beat syncopation gestures extends even to secular instrumental music, Mozart's D minor concerto K466 being a prime example.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Another from Britten's opera _Albert Herring_ - when the unwitting Albert drinks alcohol-spiked lemonade at the village fete Britten quotes the love potion motif from _Tristan and Isolde_.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> Another from Britten's opera _Albert Herring_ - when the unwitting Albert drinks alcohol-spiked lemonade at the village fete Britten quotes the love potion motif from _Tristan and Isolde_.


Very true. I'd forgotten that one!


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

1:33




And then
0:32





The context is that Offenbach's La Belle Helene was the most popular and most often performed opera bouffe in Russia at the time Tchaikovsky was writing The Sleeping Beauty.

I like how it's not a quote, but a confiscation :lol:


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

isorhythm said:


> I've thought this myself, never heard anyone else say it.
> 
> This one is possibly coincidence but it has been noted the "Ode to Joy" theme strongly resembles a theme from a youthful Mozart piece:
> 
> ...


One can get an interesting experience when the 9th is listened to as a sort of _Pathetique_ before it was cool.
It starts with Bach, D minor, fugal writing that Beethoven learned in his youth, then meanders through various Beethovenian angry and rambling things, and finally halts abruptly with "Oh Freunde, nicht diese Töne!" and embraces Mozart instead, after which a choral paradise happens. :angel:

One can imagine that Beethoven embraces Mozart by asking (the Lord) for forgiveness for his earlier, shall we say, competitive spirit against him. Not to mention that the "misericordias domini" motif quite befits Beethoven's miserable condition at the time, so it might have had a bit of either personal sincerity or irony.

And all that under the guise of happiness and human brotherhood. A brotherhood with Mozart, for example.

Beethoven: Redemption? :lol:


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## Dima (Oct 3, 2016)

Lecture: The most qouted piano concerto in the world (switch on english subtitles):


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Schnittke's Violin Sonata no.1 from 1963 quotes the folk song _'La Cucuracha'_ - it seems incongruous but it is early Schnittke after all. I was curious as to why he included this and I was probably overthinking as usual when wondering if it was an oblique reference to Leon Trotsky's assassination in Mexico City. More likely it was just an early example of what was to become Schnittke's trademark polystylism.


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