# John Ronald Reuel Tolkien



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Actually, I made a post on another site about Tolkien's crazy awesomeness, so here it is:



> Some Tolkien trivia for you folks- Middle-Earth is a direct reference to the Norse term Midgard. Midgard was in between Valhalla (above) and the perpetual Ragnarok/chaos (beneath) that was trying to break through to Midgard. This is popularly represented in the Norse Sagas with a Tree. Within it's boughs is Valhalla (an elf like tree-house, which makes me think that the elves were modeled after the Norse gods), there is a valley surrounding the tree (Midgard) and Ragnarok is a pit of black below the tree that is smothered in the roots.
> 
> Edit: another extra tidbit. Gondor is modeled after how the Norse described the residence of Thor's tree, which is a white tree. The people of Gondor are the most heavily armed and protected, and Thor was often seen as the protector god. So it seems like Tolkien implied that their fortifications, trebuchets, and massive amount of armaments was symbolism for Thor's protection.
> 
> ...


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

It's wonderful that you've posted these comments, as I'm a huge fan of Tolkien and Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian culture, but I'm in a pedantic mood, and I study this stuff, so I like to be accurate... 



Lukecash12 said:


> Some Tolkien trivia for you folks- Middle-Earth is a direct reference to the Norse term Midgard. Midgard was in between Valhalla (above) and the perpetual Ragnarok/chaos (beneath) that was trying to break through to Midgard. This is popularly represented in the Norse Sagas with a Tree. Within it's boughs is Valhalla (an elf like tree-house, which makes me think that the elves were modeled after the Norse gods), there is a valley surrounding the tree (Midgard) and Ragnarok is a pit of black below the tree that is smothered in the roots.


These are interesting facts, but with issues such as these, you must always be cautious of the certainty with which you make claims  For example, Tolkien's use of 'Middle-Earth' can also be demonstrated as the literal translation of the Old English (Anglo-Saxon) word 'middangeard', which is obviously a compound of 'middle-earth', but which simply translates as 'the world'.

While it's fairly clear that Tolkien's use of 'Middle-Earth' is meant to suggest that there is a realm above and below the immediate world - and while it's obvious that Tolkien drew heavily on Anglo-Saxon and Norse mythology - we must remember that there was no doctrine for the paganism of the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians. Unlike with Judeo-Christian religions, there were no books, no rules, and beliefs varied _heavily_ by region, and even the explanations of the same Gods would be conflicting. Thus, we can never be absolute in our description of pagan ideas.

With your point about the elves, you needn't look towards the Norse Gods - it's demonstrable through Old Norse literature that, along with giants, they believed in a variety of sub-divine entities, including elves, which were seen as symbols of fertility above all else.

It might be interesting to note also that, just above Ragnarok - or 'Hel' - and just below Midgard, some depictions show there to be a dragon!



Lukecash12 said:


> Another similarity: Smaug is a direct replica of the dragon from the poem Beowulf. Both dragons are the symbolism for greed, both are disturbed by a lowly being (Bilbo in the Hobbit and a poor servant in Beowulf) who steals the dragon's most treasured possession (a golden goblet). And in both of them the dragon becomes enraged and lays waste to a nearby town.


Another interesting point, but again I'd question the certainty implied behind 'direct replica'. The extant corpus of Old English literature doesn't contain many references to dragons, and the dragon of Beowulf is just one of a few examples; it seems, however, that there was a general mythology surrounding the characteristics of a dragon, by which Tolkien was inspired.

More essentially, these characteristics are less intrinsic to the idea of a dragon, and more in line with the societal values of the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons, which placed heavy emphasis on lord-retainer relationships, in which loyalty was acquired by the circulation of treasure.



Lukecash12 said:


> In Tolkien's Silmarillion, you will notice time after time the reference to Scandanavian, Swedish, Norwegian, Saxon, Dutch, and Anglo mythology. Tolkien said that he wanted to create a set of myths that has the most suggestive moral content, is native to England (he was very proud of his country), and is steeped in the time old philosophies of the Brits.


I'm not so sure that Tolkien's primary concern was to create something with 'suggestive moral content' (perhaps I'm wrong and you can point me to where he elaborates on that point) - particularly because pagan beliefs are not usually moral or allegorical, and the pagan Gods are often the subject of literary parody and ridicule. It is true, however, that Tolkien felt that Britain lacked a mythical culture as distinct and vast as that of Scandinavia, thus he desired to create one of similar merit.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know about all the scholarly dissection of Tolkien. For me that tends to take away from the magic of a profoundly well told story, made all the more real to us by Tolkien's decades of research and world building. That's all I want it to be. And as there are so many broad general truths within it, we can each take what we will from it as with any great work of art.

I had the dubious honor of illustrating a collectible card game based on Middle-Earth some years ago. Dubious I say because to be brutally honest I rather botched it and did not do my best work in spite of my enthusiasm. I was always at loggerheads with the art directors who seemed to know where every copse of trees was in Middle-Earth, and even how every stone of every building looked. "Could you move that stand of trees over a quarter of an inch, and could we see new sketches of that before you start the finished piece, please?" Eventually I asked them to go to Middle-Earth, take some photo reference and let me work from that.

But none of this spoiled my ongoing appreciation for those grand archetypal tales that surely must be real in some universe somewhere.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Polednice said:


> It's wonderful that you've posted these comments, as I'm a huge fan of Tolkien and Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian culture, but I'm in a pedantic mood, and I study this stuff, so I like to be accurate...


Aha! You have thrown the gauntlet at the ground and I heartily accept your gentleman's duel Let's go over this bit by bit, and see where we have some common ground:



> These are interesting facts, but with issues such as these, you must always be cautious of the certainty with which you make claims  For example, Tolkien's use of 'Middle-Earth' can also be demonstrated as the literal translation of the Old English (Anglo-Saxon) word 'middangeard', which is obviously a compound of 'middle-earth', but which simply translates as 'the world'.


Right indeed. But my personal opinion on the matter is that Tolkien was more well in tune with Norse/Scandanavian mythology, so my educated guess would have to be that he was referring to the Norse Sagas. Your assumption is just as viable as mine though, which is part of what makes Tolkien so great.



> With your point about the elves, you needn't look towards the Norse Gods - it's demonstrable through Old Norse literature that, along with giants, they believed in a variety of sub-divine entities, including elves, which were seen as symbols of fertility above all else.
> 
> It might be interesting to note also that, just above Ragnarok - or 'Hel' - and just below Midgard, some depictions show there to be a dragon!


If I remember this correctly, Thor's arch nemesis was a dragon that spanned the length of the Earth's circumference. The dragon is shown trying to smother the tree (most of the time), and there is a lot of speculation as to what they were getting at. Is the dragon the division between the earth and the heavens? Sounds a lot like the Bible verse in Genesis that details God making a firmament between the waters and the sky.

And you are absolutely right about the elves. I think I worded that incorrectly. They aren't exactly Gods, but inhabitants of Valhalla (either that or another similar Celtic paradise he reworked). They were the second and primary race (mind you, I haven't forgotten the Dwarves were also secretly made before them in Valinor) made in Valinor.



> Another interesting point, but again I'd question the certainty implied behind 'direct replica'. The extant corpus of Old English literature doesn't contain many references to dragons, and the dragon of Beowulf is just one of a few examples; it seems, however, that there was a general mythology surrounding the characteristics of a dragon, by which Tolkien was inspired.
> 
> More essentially, these characteristics are less intrinsic to the idea of a dragon, and more in line with the societal values of the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons, which placed heavy emphasis on lord-retainer relationships, in which loyalty was acquired by the circulation of treasure.


It really sounds like a replica to me. The dragon is symbolized as greed (they sleep on their stashes), but I realize that isn't the only place they are shown to be hoarders. The peculiar similarity is that someone sneaks in, steals a goblet, gets away, and the dragon lays waste to a nearby town (besides the little conversation Bilbo has with the dragon, these are identical).



> I'm not so sure that Tolkien's primary concern was to create something with 'suggestive moral content' (perhaps I'm wrong and you can point me to where he elaborates on that point) - particularly because pagan beliefs are not usually moral or allegorical, and the pagan Gods are often the subject of literary parody and ridicule. It is true, however, that Tolkien felt that Britain lacked a mythical culture as distinct and vast as that of Scandinavia, thus he desired to create one of similar merit.


Don't be so sure, my friend. He had a very strong Catholic background (I believe his mother was a low member of the clergy, but correct me if she wasn't), and said he wanted to be the first to make a myth with Christian implications.

From the start, you can tell that the Silmarillion has been modeled after the Bible in a few ways. Iluvatar vocalized himself out of the darkness, and the Anuir exist soon thereafter. And he creates what the Anuir compose using his holistic flames.

I think we both know that several times in the Bible there are references to God's holy fire of creation. In the original Hebrew, Latin, and Greek Bibles the voice from the darkness was described as if it were an explosion, which is peculiarly similar to our current Big Bang Theory (but that's a point from a previous discussion we had some fun with). Although I wouldn't say it was originally described as explosive in the Hollywood way we picture it nowadays (otherwise the King James Bible would have given forth that kind of a translation), it was characterized as having "burst forth every which way".

Also, it seems like Melkor was made to refer to Satan. In all of Celtic mythology there is never any chief antagonist Diety figure. So, it's safe to assume he penned that in to add some Christian subtext to it.

Now, the Demigod (we'll call them demigods because I don't quite remember what the Anuir were named who made the earth their home) of Hunting and Sport went against Iluvatar's wishes and in his omnipotence (take note the no Celtic gods were exactly omnipotent) the Creator found him and made him repent of his sinful treachery. Not only that, but he showed him mercy (also not common to Celtic gods dealing out justice) and let the Dwarves live.

In the Book of Malachi, it basically says "Who are you to complain, or try to question my methods?" And in the Silmarillion, Iluvatar tells the Anuir that there is a hidden event that he shall carry out himself within each age. Each has it's own purpose also, and each sounds an awful lot lot a biblical moral or parable.

Forgive my terrible writing skills. If any of this sounded awkward or poorly put together, that is probably a direct result of Asperger's Syndrome. When it comes to certain types of verbal communication, my improper attempts as of right now are actually a massive amount better than how hard it was for me to communicate in my youth. At least I can read others thoughts, like your own, and take pleasure in the appropriate use of vocabulary, concrete details, and organization of thoughts.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

BTW: A complete first edition of The Ring recently sold on Ebay in 740 pounds.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Lukecash12 said:


> Right indeed. But my personal opinion on the matter is that Tolkien was more well in tune with Norse/Scandanavian mythology, so my educated guess would have to be that he was referring to the Norse Sagas. Your assumption is just as viable as mine though, which is part of what makes Tolkien so great.


Indeed, I don't think there is any way that we can objectively say whether or not his chief inspiration for the term 'Middle-Earth' was Anglo-Saxon or Norse - it's not that important anyway. It's certainly the case that his _mythology_ was derived from Scandinavian myth, as the whole point was that such mythology was lacking in Old English literature. However, just to comment on his professional background, he was primarily a philologist, and he taught both Old English and Old Norse at Oxford (just as some examples in favour of his Anglo-Saxon leanings, he wrote a very influential piece of criticism on _Beowulf_, and also translated and commented upon many other Old English literary works). The fates and histories of the Anglo-Saxons and Norsemen around that period, however, were evidently linked due to the two major waves of Viking invasions, thus it's difficult to separate the two cultures. Tolkien was personally and professionally interested in both equally 



Lukecash12 said:


> If I remember this correctly, Thor's arch nemesis was a dragon that spanned the length of the Earth's circumference. The dragon is shown trying to smother the tree (most of the time), and there is a lot of speculation as to what they were getting at. Is the dragon the division between the earth and the heavens? Sounds a lot like the Bible verse in Genesis that details God making a firmament between the waters and the sky.


This tale surrounding Thor is very interesting, particularly with reference to Tolkien's own Christian viewpoint. The reason for this is that, originally, the pagan myth seemed to be that the dragon spanned the Earth's circumference and it held the world together. Thor went out in his boat to try to vanquish his enemy by catching him on a fishing line using an ox's head as bait, but a giant stopped him by chopping the fishing line, thus releasing the dragon. In this original myth, it is _good_ that the dragon is set free, because he is essential to the structure of the world. Only by thwarting Thor is the world restored to order.

As Christianity became more predominant and fought against the beliefs of pagans (strategically assimilating pagan ideas rather than denouncing them completely), the myth seems to have evolved, taking on the guise of the more obvious serpent/Satan function, thus it eventually became a more simple tale in which Thor defeats a devilish dragon, much like Beowulf, and no ill comes of it. This is why it's important to recognise that there is no standard pagan belief system, and perhaps Tolkien would be more interested in this latter variation on the tale for its Christian subtext.



Lukecash12 said:


> And you are absolutely right about the elves. I think I worded that incorrectly. They aren't exactly Gods, but inhabitants of Valhalla (either that or another similar Celtic paradise he reworked). They were the second and primary race (mind you, I haven't forgotten the Dwarves were also secretly made before them in Valinor) made in Valinor.


Indeed! It's also from these depictions of elves and dwarves that the dwarfish characteristic of being master-smiths derives.



Lukecash12 said:


> It really sounds like a replica to me. The dragon is symbolized as greed (they sleep on their stashes), but I realize that isn't the only place they are shown to be hoarders. The peculiar similarity is that someone sneaks in, steals a goblet, gets away, and the dragon lays waste to a nearby town (besides the little conversation Bilbo has with the dragon, these are identical).


I see what you mean now; the particular plot device of somebody stealing a goblet etc. does make them very similar. I suppose, in that case, we could say that Smaug is modelled on the dragon of Beowulf, but owing to their different cultural contexts, they serve very different purposes. Tolkien sets it up so that the dragon is very much an archetypal figure, whereas, in Beowulf, the plot-device of the man stealing the goblet is particular to the Anglo-Saxon lord-retainer/gold-giving relationship, as the goblet is stolen in order to win back the allegiance of the man's lord. This is simply something with which a modern audience cannot easily empathise, as we don't live in a time of loyalty to one's lord above family and treasure circulation!



Lukecash12 said:


> Don't be so sure, my friend. He had a very strong Catholic background (I believe his mother was a low member of the clergy, but correct me if she wasn't), and said he wanted to be the first to make a myth with Christian implications.


I don't doubt Tolkien's Christian background, perhaps I just doubted the extent to which he injected his work with Christian morality because I find it wholly unconvincing!  It seems to me rather conflicting to rework ideal pagan mythology into an allegorical form, and there's no telling to what extent Tolkien did this. Of course, there are a number of parallels that can be found in Biblical literature, but these parallels must always be treated with caution - when we're deliberately going in search of often convoluted interpretations, when the author's work isn't _explicitly_ alluding to Christian doctrine, we can all too easily find connections that the author didn't intend. If you pick up any random novel, you can probably read it in such a way that you can find some Biblical parallel, even though it was never intended and has no significance. Thus, while I don't doubt that Tolkien may have attempted this to some extent, the very fact of his drawing on pagan culture makes the Christian aspect of his works - in my humble opinion - much less successful than in the works of his friend C. S. Lewis.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Peripheral point- we used to have a member named silmarillion... and right now, 
I'm thinking that he probably wouldn't mind returning to the board about now!

In Tolkien's later years, he took many pains to try to quash assertions of an allegorical nature to his trilogy, saying that his sole interest was the telling of what he hoped was a good story. I think a good number of analysts have placed this contention in the realm of 'protesteth-too-much,' and I'm inclined to side with this perspective.

Tolkien's major tales tell of a place with lessened gray-areas and of moral absolutes and Boolean choices. That aspect of the series resonates through the generations in the same way the 'Star-Wars' series does with its millions of fans.

Although I appreciate Norse mythology (as I appreciate MUCH of Western mythology), I hope this discussion won't take too lengthy a digression down that path- and that mythic details, where mentioned, can be fairly consistently tied into their direct relevance to the writing of Tolkien.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Well I guess we've had our fun for this one. Still, he was reworking old myths, and when you look through it you think "Well I don't remember this kind of an idea from anywhere", and then you get to thinking it's from Biblical Scriptures. But that's still a loose assumption to be making. I guess I just think that, more likely than not, there was Judea-Christian influence on Tolkien's works.


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