# Orchestration Advice?



## Mahlerian

I did an orchestration of the third of Schoenberg's Six Little Pieces for Piano, and I was wondering if there were problems with it that I wouldn't be aware of (balance issues, unidiomatic writing, and so forth).

Is it varied enough? Should I use fewer parts? What are your opinions?

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## MJTTOMB

The flute part you've written is quite low in its range, so I'd suggest bumping it up an octave when it has melodically significant material. Otherwise it will likely be covered up completely. I'd also suggest doubling the violin melody at the beginning an octave above (probably with another violin, maybe moving the lower div. line to a clarinet). Your choice of instruments is good, but you didn't expand the register of the piano piece very much through octave doublings/displacements/etc., and to me that seems necessary to keep from "cluttering" one particular register. I also found the choice to have the basses doubling the cellos _arco_ somewhat questionable. It could be MIDI playback, but the effect was rather muddy. Using pizz. bass would probably give the sound clearer tonal and rhythmic definition. My last complaint is the offbeat 16th note in the brass at a piano dynamic in the second to last measure. The way you orchestrated similar events in the measure that follows seems to me to make more sense than asking brass to choke out a note at a very soft dynamic level, both from a technical and musical standpoint. Wouldn't it make more sense to orchestrate those chords consistently in the same way throughout the final two measures?


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## Mahlerian

I changed the basses to pizzicato, but I'll have to think about how to go about voicing that first chord if it isn't all in the middle register as in the original. I had in mind a relatively small group of strings, which wouldn't swamp the flute as much as the MIDI version. Perhaps having the part played by two flutes would help?


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## Ian Moore

It is interesting that you call yourself Mahlerian because orchestration is very sparse in places. It has a chamber texture to it. Each instrumental group is treated like a solo instrument. I am not sure about the balance in the string section. Doubling the basses and cello really emphasises a non essential counter figure and later on the vlns (bar 6) are exposed, no support. Had I have been Schoenberg, I would have created more music to balance the string section. His orchestration, if you want that as a guide would have employed a denser texture. Mahler would have as well (to a lesser extent). My advice is don't be afraid to tweak out more music from the material that you have. The composers probably would have generated additional music to achieve the desired effect. Perhaps it would help if you told us what you wanted to achieve. Ian Moore


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## Piwikiwi

Mahlerian said:


> I changed the basses to pizzicato, but I'll have to think about how to go about voicing that first chord if it isn't all in the middle register as in the original. I had in mind a relatively small group of strings, which wouldn't swamp the flute as much as the MIDI version. Perhaps having the part played by two flutes would help?


Flutes already sound quite soft and lack projection in the lower register. Now I'm not a orchestrator but I think that that flute will get completely swamped by the cellos.


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## Piwikiwi

Btw do you have Facebook? There is a great facebook group called orchestration online and they can probably help you a lot.


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## Mahlerian

Okay, so I revoiced the opening, doubling the main line, moved the flute response up an octave (but kept the later flute part in the low register, because the texture there is thin enough that it should be fine), and added the low brass back in for bar 7, because I feel that that chord needs a different color from the ones that follow, and because the harshness from having a trumpet playing that G isn't entirely unwanted.

I feel the other pieces would be harder to orchestrate, particularly the first.



Ian Moore said:


> It is interesting that you call yourself Mahlerian because orchestration is very sparse in places. It has a chamber texture to it. Each instrumental group is treated like a solo instrument.


This is something Mahler was known for, though (Schoenberg, too). His textures are often quite sparse, and I feel that a lusher setting for this music would be inappropriate.



Ian Moore said:


> Perhaps it would help if you told us what you wanted to achieve.


I'm quite familiar with the piece, and an orchestral setting suggested itself to me (I knew what parts of the instrumentation would be before I started), so I thought it would be interesting to see how that would work out. I wanted the texture to go through shifts corresponding to each part of the piece, so it begins with strings alone, then a mixture of strings and winds, to winds alone, then as the texture thins out we have pizzicato strings and staccato winds against a single note on the viola (which should die away, but I don't know how to do that in Musescore).

The original version has the right hand playing _forte_ while the bass line (which tends towards E-flat major) is _pianissimo_ (and in octaves). I would have done that literally, but the higher string samples overpower the low ones.

The line that I set for winds is entirely _piano_ in the original, right and left hand, and it gets successively quieter from there.


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## Ian Moore

I am getting an understanding of what you are trying to do. I think you are trying to emulate the more 'quirky' moments like;


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## Ian Moore

But I would wouldn't call this typical Mahler or Schoenberg. Having bassoons play on their own with the cellos playing a counter-figure creates a particular effect; dramatic tension, in this particular case. A 'full-blooded' passage can look like this:







Both tend to be fond of doubling woodwinds and using independent string lines.


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## Delicious Manager

Here's a link to that Orchestration group on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/278568792265515/.


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## Mahlerian

I was thinking of passages like this:
Note how in this Schoenberg example, the same large orchestra of yours is reduced to 9 solo players.








Mahler, as in my orchestration, uses the flute in its low register, doubling it with violins, and in both cases the texture is sparse.


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## Ian Moore

I see what you mean, now. I think it is a question of balance. Notice in your two examples how the instruments are paired together to get a homogeneous sound. In your first example, there are two flutes, two clarinets, a bassoon and bass clarinet, two trumpets, a horn and a trombone the the cello is paired with the solo viola. The interplay is delicate. The success of the orchestration is knowing when to leave instruments out but still achieve the desired balance. One book which may help you even though it is a bit old now is Rimsky Korsakov's treatise on Orchestration. It actually gives you examples of instrumental balance. In the Mahler example, the balance is created between the double basses and the first violins. The flute adds colour to the strings and the clarinet provides texture and colour. I feel you can learn a lot from looking at scores of the composers you admire.


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## Mahlerian

I do want to remind anyone that the MIDI playback on this program is inherently unbalanced. Listen to this:
http://musescore.com/user/100249/scores/247991


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## Ian Moore

I tried out the midi on Sibelius. You're right. The Musescore version is very unbalanced. I also have Musescore and know that it can be improve (a bit). Why don't you try a different sound-font; there are some free but good ones on the internet. Or you could mess around with the midi mixer to get a better balance. 
Had another look at the original Schoenberg piano piece. You've given yourself a bit of a challenge. It sticks to a low register and gives you little room for manoeuvre in terms of instrument choice.


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## Mahlerian

Okay, so here's a version with a marginally better soundfont (which forced me to redo the balances all over again):
View attachment Schoenberg 19-3 Ver 2.mp3


And an orchestration of No. 2 from the same set.
View attachment Schoenberg 19-2.mp3


The clarinet is way too loud in this soundfont, though.

I'm aware that someone made an orchestration of these pretty recently that was published by Universal Edition, but I haven't heard or seen it, so that hasn't influenced me at all.

Edit: Checked UE's website. They offer three (!) different arrangements. One for guitar, one for chamber orchestra (single winds) arranged by Bernhard Wulff, and another for large orchestra (triple winds) by Jan van Vlijmen.


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## Ian Moore

It would be a good idea checking out these versions so that you can make your one as different as possible. May I suggest that both Mahler and Schoenberg would be looking for ways to make their orchestration unique.


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## Ian Moore

Mahlerian, I need a bit of advice now, please. How do you get that quote and the Blog Index to go in the footnote part of your comments?


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