# Titles/programmes and our perception of music



## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

I wonder how much our perception of music is affected by titles and programmes given to works. For example, if you played Mendelssohn 4 to someone who'd never heard it before, without telling them its title, would they specifically distinguish its Italian flavour? Or would they recognize Beethoven 3 as heroic music without knowing its title and back story?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Mendelssohn's 4th never struck me as particularly Italian. The "heroic" character of B's 3rd is perhaps more palpable, though there isn't much in it that evokes the particular circumstances of its composition. The slow movement always makes me think of Napoleon's disastrous Russian campaign, mind you, though of course that happened long after the symphony was completed. 

Personally I prefer music to be completely abstract, and if I don't like a descriptive title I just ignore it and make up my own story.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

No. It's the very rare insightful person who can ascertain what the music is supposed to be about.

Play La Mer for 100 musical novices. None of them will say "Wow! The wind! The waves! Incredible!"

Same with Beethoven's "Moonlight" or "Farewell" sonatas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A title or program is an inherent part of the composition. Part of the pleasure of program music lies in enjoying the composer's particular take on his subject, and the ingenuity and imagination with which he expresses that. Some music is really surprising in how suitably expressive or depictive it can be; there are real formal or pattern resemblances between musical sounds and sights or feelings, as well as more conventional associations around certain types of music. They won't usually tell us the program without assistance, but a composer like Debussy or Wagner or Strauss may have a very acute feel for them.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2014)

maestro267 said:


> I wonder how much our perception of music is affected by titles and programmes given to works.


I can only answer for myself and say that it is inevitably affected, not least because it's difficult to approach a piece without knowing what it is called, and without a question being raised in my mind as to how the composer thinks that the sound of the notes can in any way, either literally represent the content of the program, or create an association with the emotions of the program. Take this...






The poem that inspired it can be found here...

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=28118

I love the piece, but I don't see that any claim can be made that this phrase or that harmony can conjure up a girl, with flaxen hair or any other kind!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

*In deference to the following post, rant against elaborate names for pieces of music deleted*


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

This is not against titles and programmes, by the way. I'm just curious as to whether someone who's never heard the music before would be able to distinguish the mood of the piece (obviously given away by its title) without prior knowledge of said title.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

It would not specifically. Music can't describe any real _mood_ or _story[/] in reality. The only thing music can make explicit to an audience is the fact that it really is just sound organised to particular rules in different styles. Music has the power to evoke and often more specific evocations come about from descriptive titles. Debussy's preludes were all titles after he wrote them. Imagine what "La Cathédrale Engloutie" would evoke if it were titled "La Baleine de Vomissements!"_


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> No. It's the very rare insightful person who can ascertain what the music is supposed to be about.
> 
> Play La Mer for 100 musical novices. None of them will say "Wow! The wind! The waves! Incredible!"
> 
> Same with Beethoven's "Moonlight" or "Farewell" sonatas.


And "Moonlight" wasn't Beethoven's own title to begin with. But I just had a neat idea for a stupid thread title...

I once played Debussy's "Reflections on the water for friend (well, that is to say, I played him a recording) and asked him what he thought it suggested. He replied that it sounded somehow watery to him - I was pleasantly surprised. Perhaps I should repeat the experiment on my other friends, but then, I want to keep them.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

maestro267 said:


> This is not against titles and programmes, by the way. I'm just curious as to whether someone who's never heard the music before would be able to distinguish the mood of the piece (obviously given away by its title) without prior knowledge of said title.


You clearly mean the subject of the piece, not the mood. The answer is, often no. But how is this in any way relevant? That is why composers used titles when they wished the subject to be recognized.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I think it is a ridiculous idea to try to listen to music while trying to ignore all the related extra-musical things. At the same time, one should not be a _slave_ to the context, either. "Oh no, seems that this composer once expressed nasty things about group X! Now I must not listen to it anymore, even though I love it!" Learn the context, acknowledge it, listen to the music, then make up your own mind.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Titles usually frustrate me, particularly if it's a story I'm unfamiliar with. Like Strongs's 2nd symphony, "Sintram," who is that guy, and why do I care?

Then there are those generic, mood-inducing titles. I'm in a Delius phase, and "Over the Hills and Far Away" or A Song Before Sunrise" doesn't contribute a lot to my understanding of what's going on. 

I guess I'm too lazy to always dig out the liner notes to figure out these things.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> A title or program is an inherent part of the composition.


Certainly not when the title is given by someone other than the composer.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

maestro267 said:


> I wonder how much our perception of music is affected by titles and programmes given to works. For example, if you played Mendelssohn 4 to someone who'd never heard it before, without telling them its title, would they specifically distinguish its Italian flavour? Or would they recognize Beethoven 3 as heroic music without knowing its title and back story?


To some extent a great piece does have that effect. Beethoven's 5th symphony probably has that effect of heroic music especially the final movement or his Egmont overture.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> No. It's the very rare insightful person who can ascertain what the music is supposed to be about.
> 
> Play La Mer for 100 musical novices. None of them will say "Wow! The wind! The waves! Incredible!"


Play Art of the Fugue for 100 musical novices, and none is likely to "Hey, those are fugues!"


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