# Piano Music After Beethoven - Modern Sonatas?



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

I love the Beethoven Sonatas. I am wondering if there is a modern equivalent to Beethoven? For post-Beethoven, Scriabin comes to mind... what do you think? Any sonata cycles worth listening to?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Klassic said:


> I love the Beethoven Sonatas. I am wondering if there is a modern equivalent to Beethoven? For post-Beethoven, Scriabin comes to mind... what do you think? Any sonata cycles worth listening to?


If you like the mysticism of the last five Scriabin sonatas, or indeed of the last three Beethoven sonatas, why not try the Horatiu Radulescu cycle of Lao Tzu sonatas?


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Check out John Field's sonatas for a similar vibe to Beethoven. John O'Connor is expert at these.

And of course Schubert's sonatas are superb too, though he sometimes seems more Mozartish than Beethovenian . Andras Schiff is recommended for them.

(Well - they _are_ after Beethoven anyway.)


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Mentioning a few post-Medtner composers, I´ll begin with _Samuil Feinberg_´s (12 sonatas).

_Niels Viggo Bentzon _wrote extremely much in all genres (probably around 25 piano sonatas, 13 sets of Well-Tempered Piano), but the early piano sonatas (nos. 2-9, recorded) have some merit at least (such as nos. 4+5). 





_Lubos Fiser_´s sonatas (8) are very effective, but parts of them can be violent 




_Boris Tischenko _wrote 10, but so far I haven´t found them much to my taste.

_Nikolai Kapustin_´s literally jazzy style might be of interest too (more than a dozen sonatas) 





_John White _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_White_(composer)
has written at least 172 often short piano sonatas; I have an LP with a few of them, but don´t remember the music. Discography: https://www.discogs.com/artist/239921-John-White


----------



## Guest (Sep 5, 2016)

Beethoven was a major influence on Michael Tippett's piano sonatas.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I wouldn't limit the output to sonatas. There are other forms just as valid from, to name a few, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Poulenc, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich, Szymanowski,


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Weston said:


> Check out John Field's sonatas for a similar vibe to Beethoven. John O'Connor is expert at these.
> 
> And of course Schubert's sonatas are superb too, though he sometimes seems more Mozartish than Beethovenian . Andras Schiff is recommended for them.
> 
> (Well - they _are_ after Beethoven anyway.)


I think of the Schubert Piano Sonatas as more contemporary with Beethoven, the last ones being written in 1828, just 5 years after Beethoven's final #32.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Prokofiev. Possibly the most important 20thc composer of piano sonatas. The first couple are youthful works. Six through nine are great.

Eight is my favorite and this is the best performance I've heard:


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Grieg sonata, lyric pieces
Prokofiev sonatas, visions fugitives
Egon Wellesz - There's a very good 3 disc set on Capriccio
Bax sonatas
Ligeti etudes


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Was supposed to be and edited version of the above.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> Prokofiev. Possibly the most important 20thc composer of piano sonatas. The first couple are youthful works. Six through nine are great.
> 
> Eight is my favorite and this is the best performance I've heard:


He was the only composer after Schubert to write top-tier masterpieces in the form IMO. The 8th is my favorite too.


----------



## Guest (Sep 5, 2016)

Though not "sonatas" in the classical sense, *Stockhausen* did write a substantial body of solo piano pieces known as the *Klavierstück I-XIX*. British composer *Jonathan Harvey* made some excellent analyses of a handful of them (Klavierstück's IX, X & XI - if I remember correctly - in his excellent tome *The Music of Stockhausen* (https://www.amazon.com/Music-Stockhausen-Jonathan-Harvey/dp/0571102514).

Here's a Wiki leak for the details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klavierstücke_(Stockhausen).

YouTube also provides several examples (most without accompanying score or pretty pictures).


----------



## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Beethoven's piano sonatas are in a league of their own. But there are some great more recent sets in addition to the Scriabin, Prokofiev, and Medtner noted above.

Some I enjoy that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

*Myaskovsky* (9)
*Hindemith* (3)
*Rachmaninov* (2)
*Ives* (2)
*Boulez* (3)
*Persichetti* (12)
*Ustvolskaya* (6)

And a number of one-offs: *Dukas, Rzewski, Barber, Berg, Hartmann, Carter, Copland, Stravinsky, Berio*


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Also:

Schumann (3)
Liszt (2)
Alkan (1)
Busoni (though I have only heard one of his, Op. 20)
Bridge (1)
Ives (2)
Bartok (1)
Boulez (3)


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> He was the only composer after Schubert to write top-tier masterpieces in the form IMO. The 8th is my favorite too.


Oops, forgot Ives!


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Some further, rather late-romantic cycles worth mentioning would be

- Medtner (14)
- Szymanowski (3)
- Roslavets (3 were not lost)
- Langgaard (depending on how to count, up to 8)
- Hilding Rosenberg (4)
- Valen (2)


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Some additional piano sonatas I like that I haven't seen mentioned: Janacek's (Firkusny), Elliott Carter's (Rosen & Oppens), Shostakovich's 2nd (Gilels), Schnittke's 1st (Feltsman), and Tippett's 1-4 (Crossley). 

Of course, as others have mentioned a lot of major solo piano repertoire is missed by sticking to the piano sonata form.

*p.s.* Sorry--missed Kontrapunktus' mention of Tippett.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Vincent Persichetti's complete sonatas are very pleasurable listening.


----------



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Simply amazing my friends. Thank you for all the suggestions. The diversity on TC never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

If I can add some modern russians with nice piano sonatas set which I enjoy:
- Feinberg
- Myaskovsky
- Alexandrov
- Mossolov

and there is Kapustin, which I do not like, but he writes correctly in Sonata forms.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Roger Sessions, although this is very challenging listening.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Roger Sessions, although this is very challenging listening.


I thought there was a really fabulous recording of Sessions's third sonata on YouTube by Beveridge Webster.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> I thought there was a really fabulous recording of Sessions's third sonata on YouTube by Beveridge Webster.


I remember Berveridge Webster from an Everest LP. It was my first exposure to Berg's op. 1. I'll check that YouTube clip out...

BTW, the CD above has the recording of Robert Helps doing the Sonata No. 3, originally released on the Acoustic Research LP collection offered by Stereo Review by mail...

"Piano Sonata No. 3 is in the traditional three-movement format, except that the typical classical format is reversed-two somewhat subdued slow movements surround a fiery scherzo. The third movement, "In memoriam: November 22, 1963," was composed as an elegy for John F. Kennedy."


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Yes, Webster was an often very fine pianist and mostly recorded for the Dover label, such as
https://www.discogs.com/Copland-Ses...r-Modern-American-Piano-Music/release/6130963

The Sessions 2nd Sonata is still on you-t


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Oh yes, I meant the second sonata, sorry my bad.


----------



## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Here's my own piano sonata. It's an introspective neo-romantic work that depicts a journey of solitude through snowy mountains.


----------



## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> Prokofiev. Possibly the most important 20thc composer of piano sonatas. The first couple are youthful works. Six through nine are great.
> 
> Eight is my favorite and this is the best performance I've heard:


its really good, thxs for posting it.


----------



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Sessions is a strange beast. His music seems to give me the feeling of _dry academia_.


----------



## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Debussy's Estampes and Images vol. 1 and 2 might as well be called "sonatas." Ravel's Miroirs and Gaspard de la nuit maybe less so, but they're at least still works for piano consisting of multiple long movements, so whatever.


----------



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Ravel's... Gaspard de la nuit...


One of the most virtuoso piano pieces ever written.


----------



## Stavrogin (Apr 20, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> Prokofiev. Possibly the most important 20thc composer of piano sonatas. The first couple are youthful works. Six through nine are great.
> 
> Eight is my favorite and this is the best performance I've heard:


Boris Giltburg is one of my favourite young pianists. His rendition of Prokofiev's piano concerto 2 is great - not an easy piece.


----------



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Klassic said:


> Sessions is a strange beast. His music seems to give me the feeling of _dry academia_.


It's not dry, or at least what I remember about it is not dry music but rather passages that are violent or mysterious in mood or lyrical. At any rate, Sessions isn't what I think of when I think of dry music, but maybe it varies a little depending on which pieces of his you listen to.


----------



## James Mann (Sep 6, 2016)

Why after Beethoven? If I may ask


----------



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

James Mann said:


> Why after Beethoven? If I may ask


4-me Beethoven is both a climax and a new beginning in music. I am interested in post-Beethoven, not pre-Beethoven.


----------



## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Klassic said:


> 4-me Beethoven is both a climax and a new beginning in music. I am interested in post-Beethoven, not pre-Beethoven.


Nah, everybody knows the foreplay is better than the climax.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Stavrogin said:


> Boris Giltburg is one of my favourite young pianists. His rendition of Prokofiev's piano concerto 2 is great - not an easy piece.


I hadn't heard of Giltburg before I discovered that performance of Prokofiev's 8th. He now has my full attention. Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Carl Maria Von Weber was by birth/death very much a contemporary of Beethoven, but his musical influence was more post-Beethoven which included Mendelssohn, Berlioz and even Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky and Mahler. This beautiful Adagio movement of his Sonata #1 has both Beethoven-esque and post Beethoven elements.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I love Beethoven, but there is a certain convention in piano playing, that he used, that sounds archaic to me. I guess they did it to get the feeling of more sustain; perhaps the pianofortes were not quite up to snuff. It's the "tremolo" effect of rocking back & forth on 2 notes, or a chord. It sounds like "Perils of Pauline" melodrama music for a silent film.

I guess you can hear it in this clip.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I love Beethoven, but there is a certain convention in piano playing, that he used, that sounds archaic to me. I guess they did it to get the feeling of more sustain; perhaps the pianofortes were not quite up to snuff. It's the "tremolo" effect of rocking back & forth on 2 notes, or a chord. It sounds like "Perils of Pauline" melodrama music for a silent film.
> 
> I guess you can hear it in this clip.


Well, it's Arrau playing the Waldstein. That's all I hear. Virtually all of Beethoven's sonatas sound different from each other. Then, almost all Beethoven sonata performances sound different depending on the artist. Then, different pianos sound different. Basically, I have no idea what your point is. I don't think I've ever heard Beethoven's piano music 'convention' described as archaic.

I've played many of the Beethoven sonatas and have never encountered a sense that the structure of his compositions was such as to compensate for limited sustain in his pianos. On the contrary, his sonatas seem to very much take advantage of sustain that is available.


----------



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

DaveM said:


> Well, it's Arrau playing the Waldstein. That's all I hear. Virtually all of Beethoven's sonatas sound different from each other. Then, almost all Beethoven sonata performances sound different depending on the artist. Then, different pianos sound different. Basically, I have no idea what your point is. I don't think I've ever heard Beethoven's piano music 'convention' described as archaic.
> 
> I've played many of the Beethoven sonatas and have never encountered a sense that the structure of his compositions was such as to compensate for limited sustain in his pianos. On the contrary, his sonatas seem to very much take advantage of sustain that is available.


It is piano music, so it makes sense to think that musical raw ideas were either (1) modified to suit the piano's nature or (2) certain effects (tremolo, trills) were used in order for the music to transcend some of the limitations of the instrument. I don't see anything outrageous in arguing the latter. It may be revealing to study Liszt's piano transcriptions of Beethoven's symphonies to see what I am talking about with respect to (2).


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Chordalrock said:


> It is piano music, so it makes sense to think that musical raw ideas were either (1) modified to suit the piano's nature or (2) certain effects (tremolo, trills) were used in order for the music to transcend some of the limitations of the instrument. I don't see anything outrageous in arguing the latter.


It's a theory not borne out by the facts. For one thing, if one has actually played the sonatas, one would not be aware of contrivances to overcome the early 19th century piano's limitations. Beethoven composed piano music as if he was playing a more powerful piano, not by using tremolos and trills to compensate.

Evidence of this is the fact that he had the most 'powerful' piano of the day, the London Broadwood, for the composition of the sonatas including and following the Hammerklavier and other than the increased depth, sophistication and innovation of the final sonatas, there is no evidence that he then stopped using contrivances because they simply weren't there in the first place.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I love Beethoven, but there is a certain convention in piano playing, that he used, that sounds archaic to me. I guess they did it to get the feeling of more sustain; perhaps the pianofortes were not quite up to snuff. It's the "tremolo" effect of rocking back & forth on 2 notes, or a chord. It sounds like "Perils of Pauline" melodrama music for a silent film.
> 
> I guess you can hear it in this clip.


Yes I think I know what you mean. It's less of an issue on a proper fortepiano, because the sound is more percussive, the textures are different. The Waldstein in the first movement is changed radically and for the better.

By the way, what you wrote made me think of something Gould wrote about tremolo in Liszt which was really perceptive, and made me rethink the idea of transcription. But that's a bit "off topic"


----------



## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Liszt's sonata in B-minor is up there with Beethoven's work in my opinion.

Schumann's 1st sonata isn't bad either.

Debussy's work..

Schubert's sonata's are interesting too 

You probably need a lot of composers to match Beethoven's 32 sonata's


----------



## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

Yes, good luck finding Beethoven's successor.


----------

