# Why didn't Schubert finish his 8th Symphony?



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

One writer said that Schubert lost interest in finishing it when he realized one of the melodies from that work was too similar to a Beethoven melody. 

Another said that Schubert already expressed himself enough and had no need for the last 2 movements.

My simpler hypothesis is that he intended to finish it, but died before he could.

Your comments?


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Harold Schonberg who wrote _Lives of the Great Composers_ theorized that Schubert's style of craftsmanship was always based on an arc that had a beginning, middle and an end. He said that Schubert could not have left it unfinished on purpose because his mind didn't work that way. So Schonberg guesses that final two movements to one of the greatest symphonies in history just got misplaced somewhere.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

We don't know. >>>>>>>>>>


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I believe that he intended to complete it - there are after all sketches for a third movement. But the two movements we have are so incredibly beautiful and perfect how was he going to top them? The work is just fine in two movements and it should be left alone.

But, do you know the Peter Schikele "Unbegun Symphony"? There's an idea for a concert: play the Schubert then the Schikele and voila! A four movement symphony.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Aurelian said:


> One writer said that Schubert lost interest in finishing it when he realized one of the melodies from that work was too similar to a Beethoven melody.
> 
> Another said that Schubert already expressed himself enough and had no need for the last 2 movements.
> 
> ...


Schubert wrote many unfinished symphonies in that period. He wrote 6 symphonies in the classical style, and then he tried to develop a new romantic style. These unfinished symphonies were just attempts on his way. The 8th symphony is great but nothing special for Schubert. He would have probably wrote something like 41 or 108 symphonies like Mozart or Haydn but in romantic style if he would have lived longer. His attitude towards symphonies was more like Haydns or Mozarts and not like Beethovens. Beethoven struggled with his symphonies until they were finished and perfect. Schubert wrote symphonies fast and if something was wrong he just went next and did not bother.

So that the 8th is unfinished does not tell much about something wrong with it, but much about how great Schubert was. A great work like the 8th was just a practice for him.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I blame it on the syphilis or maybe he got hooked on Candy Crush.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

He dropped the sheet music off of his bed and didn't want to lean over and pick them up.

(And yes, I know this is a Rossini story)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Aurelian said:


> One writer said that Schubert lost interest in finishing it when he realized one of the melodies from that work was too similar to a Beethoven melody.


The "transition" from the turbulent 1st theme to the serene 2nd theme and the sense of contrast in the first movement somewhat remind me of those of another unfinished work ; Mozart's confutatis - voca me


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I for one don't believe Schubert left it unfinished because he couldn't match the first two movements. I think it more likely that as there was little chance of publication (when Schubert was published at all it was usually only for his songs) he simply let it gather dust as he did much else. The delightful 1825 piano sonata now known as _Reliquie_ met a similar fate - as was Schubert's wont he worked on numerous pieces simultaneously and sadly the final movement to this work was started but not developed so the work fell by the wayside.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I remain satisfied with the work, unfinished though it may be. I cannot imagine a more fitting conclusion than the second movement Schubert supplied (but of course my imagination is a long luster below that of Schubert's, so what can I know?). I agree with those "authorities" that suggest Schubert did not complete the work because he intuited it was "perfect" in the two movement form. Schubert certainly had the time to finish it, but chose instead to go on to composing a Ninth Symphony, the one Schubert work in which I find little of interest, a notion which I find disturbing as well.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> The "transition" from the turbulent 1st theme to the serene 2nd theme and the sense of contrast in the first movement somewhat remind me of those of another unfinished work ; Mozart's confutatis - voca me


What a surprise! hammeredklavier managed to bring Mozart into the discussion...gosh, that never happens.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Coach G said:


> Harold Schonberg who wrote _Lives of the Great Composers_ theorized that Schubert's style of craftsmanship was always based on an arc that had a beginning, middle and an end. He said that Schubert could not have left it unfinished on purpose because his mind didn't work that way. So Schonberg guesses that final two movements to one of the greatest symphonies in history just got misplaced somewhere.


I am with Schonberg on this. The "Schubert-said-all-he-had-to-say" line of thinking is a load of baloney. It is wonderful work which I love, but far from perfect from a formal perspective.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Haydn70 said:


> I am with Schonberg on this. The "Schubert-said-all-he-had-to-say" line of thinking is a load of baloney. It is wonderful work which I love, but far from perfect from a formal perspective.


You may well be right, but I can't help thinking of Beethoven's final piano sonata, where he actually *did* decide that two movements were all he had to say.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

amfortas said:


> You may well be right, but I can't help thinking of Beethoven's final piano sonata, where he actually *did* decide that two movements were all he had to say.


I see your point. But there is a great contrast between the two movements of the Beethoven sonata and to my ears, not that much with the Schubert movements. The work as it stands cries out for at least one energetic, ebullient movement.

Evidently there are two pages of a scherzo in full score.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Haydn70 said:


> I see your point. But there is a great contrast between the two movements of the Beethoven sonata and to my ears, not that much with the Schubert movements. The work as it stands cries out for at least one energetic, ebullient movement.


Yes, and the number of movements in a piano sonata has generally been a bit more flexible than those in a symphony.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Merl said:


> I* blame it on the syphilis* or maybe he got hooked on Candy Crush.


Not more, not less. Franz was suffering great by this time.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

A big bird carried off the final two movements, and Schubert was too engrossed in other projects to re-create them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Haydn70 said:


> What a surprise! hammeredklavier managed to bring Mozart into the discussion...gosh, that never happens.


LOL, I know, it's funny. But the orchestration at the end of the second thematic section (in the first movement's exposition) is somewhat reminiscent of Mozart's recordare, wouldn't you agree? It is as if Schubert was thinking of his own impending death and thinking of some funeral music of his predecessors, most notably Mozart's. It's just my speculation.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Aries said:


> Schubert wrote many unfinished symphonies in that period. He wrote 6 symphonies in the classical style, and then he tried to develop a new romantic style. These unfinished symphonies were just attempts on his way. The 8th symphony is great but nothing special for Schubert. He would have probably wrote something like 41 or 108 symphonies like Mozart or Haydn but in romantic style if he would have lived longer. His attitude towards symphonies was more like Haydns or Mozarts and not like Beethovens. Beethoven struggled with his symphonies until they were finished and perfect. Schubert wrote symphonies fast and if something was wrong he just went next and did not bother.


"In spontaneity of genius Schubert resembles Mozart more than any other master who ever lived. His early education and training were different from those of Mozart, and musical ideas take different form with him. While Mozart was distinctly a melodist, counterpoint and fugue were at his fingers' ends, and his thematic treatment had all the freedom which comes from a thorough training in the use of musical material. Schubert had not this kind of training. He never wrote a good fugue, and his counterpoint was indifferent; but on the other hand he had several qualities which Mozart had not, and in particular a very curious and interesting mental phenomenon, which we might call psychical resonance or clairvoyance. Whatever poem or story he read immediately called up musical images in his mind. Under the excitement of the sentiment of a poem, or of dramatic incidents narrated, strange harmonies spontaneously suggested themselves, and melodies exquisitely appropriate to the sentiment he desired to convey. He was a musical painter, whose colors were not imitated from something without himself, but were inspired from within."
< A Popular History of the Art of Music: From the Earliest Times Until the Present / William Smythe Babcock Mathews / P.388 >


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Mozart's response to and treatment of sensitive or dramatic situations in his major operas was every bit the equal of Schubert's in his Lieder.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Aurelian said:


> One writer said that Schubert lost interest in finishing it when he realized one of the melodies from that work was too similar to a Beethoven melody.
> 
> Another said that Schubert already expressed himself enough and had no need for the last 2 movements.
> 
> ...


You know, I never thought I would ever have a legitimate reason to use this. But here it is anyway! So. Without more ado...


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Aurelian said:


> One writer said that Schubert lost interest in finishing it when he realized one of the melodies from that work was too similar to a Beethoven melody.
> 
> Another said that Schubert already expressed himself enough and had no need for the last 2 movements.
> 
> ...


He was sick from syphilis and it affected his creativity (the disease probably affected his brain).


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> You know, I never thought I would ever have a legitimate reason to use this. But here it is anyway! So. Without more ado...
> 
> View attachment 149659


Schubert did finish it FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE using Brian Newbould as his medium.






My favorite unfinished movement, the scherzo of the D708A sketch. It starts at around 6:18.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

The answer is in this article by Dr. Robert Greenburg:

https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/music-history-monday-buried-treasure/


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

He would have written more but the clock struck four..... everything stops for tea


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

This is one possibility.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Dorsetmike said:


> This is one possibility.
> View attachment 150274


That definitely has the ring of truth about it!. In a more modern context:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

"If it fits, I sitz."


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