# World War II movies..................



## Itullian

I've always been interested in WW ll. Such an awesome time in history.

What are your favorite WW II movies and why?
thanks


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## david johnson

I've seen too many to remember! Here are few I really liked - 
Yamato (2005) http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xaa81o_must-see-battle-scene-otoko-tachi-n_tech
Enemy At The Gates (2001) 



The Battle of Britain (1969) 



Patton (1970)


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## Taggart

Dambusters 1955
Cockleshell Heroes 1955

Two genuine British stories of courage and endurance.

Guns of Navarone 1961

A piece of Hollywood Hokum, redeemed by David Niven. The Brits do it so much better.

Bridge on the River Kwai 1957 David Lean at his best.

Casablanca 1942 - the start of a beautiful friendship

Ice Cold in Alex 1958 - used in a number of adverts


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## Ingélou

The 'best' film I've seen in Schindler's List, but I never want to see it again. You will understand why.

One film that I used to enjoy when it was regularly shown on British TV is 'The Man that Never Was', (1956) about Operation Mincemeat, a 1943 British Intelligence plan to deceive the Axis powers into thinking Operation Husky, the Allied invasion of Sicily, would take place elsewhere.
The tension, and the poignancy of the dead man's father agreeing to the ploy, is what I remember it for.

I also enjoyed the black & white film (1959) 'The Diary of Anne Frank' for its tension & pathos.

And 'A Town called Alice' for the sadness & the romance. 

I am looking forward to a chance to see 'The Railway Man', a book I taught at A-level, about the late Eric Lomax & the torture he suffered at Japanese hands & how he came to terms with it later. Anyone who has read the book can only admire his determined, courageous character & the last page always got me reaching for the Kleenex.

You will have gathered by now that I am not a 'guns blazing' kind of war film fan!


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## david johnson

Fury (2014) with Brad Pitt interests me because it will use a real Tiger tank rather than a mock-up. I've seen some good fakes, but I would enjoy seeing how the real tank features in a flick.


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## Guest

I still like some of the old classics:
The Longest Day - about the invasion of Normandy. Great ensemble cast, enjoyable WWII movie.
Casablanca - Bogart at his best, and a stunning leading lady.
A Bridge Too Far - about Operation Market Garden. Not my favorite, but still really well done. So many great actors, as well.
Saving Private Ryan - Really well done.
Band of Brothers - not a movie, but an HBO mini-series, based on the book by Stephen Ambrose, following a parachute infantry regiment from D-Day through the end of the war in Europe. One of the groups that was forever immortalized as the "Battling ******** of Bastogne."
Where Eagles Dare - Fictional movie, a great espionage movie set during WWII. Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton. One of my all-time favorites.
Tora! Tora! Tora!
The Sands of Iwo Jima - John Wayne and WWII! He was also in The Longest Day.
Flag of our Fathers - a more sober and realistic telling of Iwo Jima, from the perspective of the men who raised the flag on Mt. Suribachi.
Patton - iconic, great biopic and movie. George C. Scott in an immortal role.
Schindler's List - one of those movies that moves me every single time I watch it, no matter how many times that is.
Valkyrie - I don't particularly like Tom Cruise, but I thought he did a good job in this retelling of the Stauffenberg plot to kill Hitler.

There are so many others. War movies, and WWII movies in particular, are my passion.


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## Guest

I forgot to mention Das Boot - life on a German U-Boot. Early Wolfgang Petersen (later did Air Force One, The Perfect Storm, among others). Along that same vein, U-571, a submarine and espionage story. A bit cheesy at times, but enjoyable enough.

Oh, and let's not forget the Dirty Dozen. And while we are on Lee Marvin, I always enjoyed Hell in the Pacific, with just him and the great Japanese actor Toshiru Mifune - a Japanese and an American marooned on an island in the Pacific during the war.


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## Itullian

A couple for you Dr.
Guadalcanal Diary
Breakthrough
A lot of actual footage in those.


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## Guest

*Der Untergang* (Downfall), a 2004 film about Hitler's last days in the Berlin bunker. Fascinating and horrifying - and only hints at how totally off his head Hitler really was. For me the most chilling scene was when Frau Goebbels murders her own children as she is unable to accept the failure of National Socialism.


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## Itullian

Cross of Iron
Peckinpah's film about the Eastern front.
Not many about that.


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## Guest

Not necessarily about WWII, but its aftermath - Judgment at Nuremberg. Spencer Tracy, a young William Shatner, and Maximillian Schell.

Tom Selleck, not too long ago, portrayed Ike in a movie about the decisions immediately leading up to D-Day. Not a bad movie.

I can't believe I forgot The Great Escape. Great prison break movie, with another incredible cast - Steve McQueen, James Garner, Richard Attenborough, Charles Bronson, Donald Pleasance, James Coburn.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong

I like the first 15 minutes of _Saving Private Ryan_, but not the rest of it. _Casablanca _is my favorite film of all time. _Valkyrie _was good -- I watched it as if it were a thriller.

I automatically avoid any war movie with John Wayne, I think more because of his attitude than because of anything else. He, himself, had never seen the elephant, but at least sometimes used to behave as if he had. Unlike John Wayne, I have seen the elephant, in Vietnam. The last of his war films I saw was _The Green Berets_, whose level of accuracy is typified by the last scene, which has the sun setting in the east.

I agree with Ingélou in that _Schindler's List_ is a great movie that I never want to see again.

My father served as an engineering officer on HM Submarine Telemachus in WWII. He said that _Das Boot_ was the most accurate depiction of submarine duty he had seen in a film.


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## samurai

*Some Came Running, * *The Young Lions and Das Boot. *All of these get my vote, because as far as I know--not having had the honor, like my father and uncle of having served in that conflict--they all give very realistic depictions of what it was like serving in the armed forces at that time, be it American or German. *The Young Lions* especially addresses the issue of anti-semitism found in the U.S. Army, with Charlton Heston--if memory serves--playing the Jewish soldier who is tormented by his "fellow" soldiers, who are--or should be, at least, training in order to wage war against the greatest anti-semite of all.
Just as a quick. aside, my father came back to barracks one night only to find that his platoon mates had left a burning Bible in his rack. Nice, huh? After that, he slept with one eye open and his weapon besides him. BTW, his whole unit eventually deployed to and served in Germany as occupation troops under General George Patton after linking up with the Russians to rid this earth of the great evil known as Hitler.


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## Guest

Speaking of those who have seen the elephant, I nearly forgot To Hell and Back with Audie Murphy.


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## GreenMamba

I tend to prefer the the old epics that treated the battle itself as sufficient drama. E.g., A Bridge Too Far. Midway, although this adds a secondary story and some nonsense when Charlton Heston jumps in the cockpit.

Saving Private Ryan works during the beginning, but then the story about the brother takes over.

On the other hand, I also like To Be or Not to Be (the Lubitsch and Jack Benny version).


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## SimonNZ

An absolute masterpiece that deserves to be much better known - The Burmese Harp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burmese_Harp_%281956_film%29










See the review in the 1001 Movies You Must See book, if you have it

also: Jean-Pierre Melville's The Silence Of The Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Silence_de_la_mer_%28film%29


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## Manxfeeder

DrMike said:


> I forgot to mention Das Boot - life on a German U-Boot. Early Wolfgang Petersen (later did Air Force One, The Perfect Storm, among others).


I saw the first half of Das Boot and got interrupted. Then I thought, it's been nice so far, and I know bad things are about to happen in this movie, so why not leave with a pleasant memory? So that's where I left it.


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## Manxfeeder

Oh, and another vote for Casablanca. Great dialogue.


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## Blancrocher

SimonNZ said:


> An absolute masterpiece that deserves to be much better known - The Burmese Harp
> 
> also: Jean-Pierre Melville's The Silence Of The Sea


I agree--both great films. Have you also seen Melville's "Army of Shadows"? A perfect movie.

A few other favorites that haven't been mentioned:

Lars von Trier's "Europa"

Chaplin's "The Great Dictator"

Alain Resnais' "Hiroshima Mon Amour"

Hitchcock's "Foreign Correspondent" is among his most entertaining films, and not all that well known considering.

*p.s.* Not exactly a WWII movie, but Marcel Carné's great epic, "Children of Paris," was shot during the German occupation. What a marvel.


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## Manxfeeder

Blancrocher said:


> Chaplin's "The Great Dictator"


Funny, when you mention WWII movies, I immediately think of bombs, blood, and guts. I appreciate all these references to other types of movies. _The Great Dictator_ is definitely a war movie.

I remember_ Bonhoeffer, Agent of Grace_ making an impact on me; a humble theologian who ends up taking on Hitler. In key scenes where they invoke his inner serenity, they play the adagio of Beethoven's 9th, which is a nice touch.


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## SimonNZ

Blancrocher said:


> I agree--both great films. Have you also seen Melville's "Army of Shadows"? A perfect movie.


Funny you should ask - I've just reserved it at the video store. Thinking about Le Silence reminded me theres a couple of other Melville films based on his own experience in the resistance I haven't gotten around to.

It also reminded me to recommend here Andrej Wajda's "War Trilogy": A Generation I like, Kanal I like very much, Ashes And Diamonds is in my opinion one of the best films ever made.










and Francesco Rosi's film of The Truce

Primo Levi's autobiographical account of his liberation from a concenbtration camp and his long journey by foot to his home in italy through a devastated Europe. John Turturro as Levi.


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## SimonNZ

A few more faves that haven't been mentioned yet:

Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence

The Life And Death Of Colonel Blimp

Ivan's Childhood

Germany Year Zero

The Cranes Are Flying

and a serious fave that should have been among the first I mentioned:

Forbidden Games


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## Itullian

Hell is for Heroes, Steve McQueen
Devil's Brigade, William Holden


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## Wood

Itullian said:


> I've always been interested in WW ll. Such an awesome time in history.
> 
> What are your favorite WW II movies and why?
> thanks


*Malle: *_Lacombe, Lucien

_









The complexities of collaboration.


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## SiegendesLicht

A couple of good ones that have not yet been mentioned:

The Bridge, the original 1959 film (there is also a 2008 remake) - a story of seven teenagers-turned-warriors in the last days of the war.

As Far As My Feet Will Carry Me - not a war film as such, but rather dealing with the aftermath of the war, a story of a German soldier who finds himself in a Russian labor camp in Eastern Siberia and makes an escape across the entire Eurasian continent and back home.


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## Wood

SiegendesLicht said:


> As Far As My Feet Will Carry Me - not a war film as such, but rather dealing with the aftermath of the war, a story of a German soldier who finds himself in a Russian labor camp in Eastern Siberia and makes an escape across the entire Eurasian continent and back home.


Several decades ago I read the book written by the escapee, whose name alludes me now.

However, I recall subsequently reading that there is considerable doubt whether or not it is a hoax, as survival under the narrated conditions was thought impossible.

If we're talking aftermath, there is probably nothing better than The Marriage of Maria Braun by Fassbinder.


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## joen_cph

Saving Private Ryan, the first half hour.
Das Boot.
Die Brücke, I only know the 2008 version.
Der Untergang.

All are way above average as regards depicting the absurdities and chaos of war, and in their psychological portraiture.

A good website, albeit in German http://www.diebestenfilmeallerzeiten.de/filmkategorien/kriegsfilme.htm


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## SiegendesLicht

Wood said:


> Several decades ago I read the book written by the escapee, whose name alludes me now.
> 
> However, I recall subsequently reading that there is considerable doubt whether or not it is a hoax, as survival under the narrated conditions was thought impossible.


The escapee's name was Cornelius Rost, and the story is believed to be quite exaggerated, but not entirely untrue.

There is also a film called A Woman in Berlin (Eine Frau in Berlin) about life right after the end of the war. Whether is is _good_, that is for each viewer to decide, but it is _extremely_ graphic and violent. I've seen it once and that is enough.


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## SilenceIsGolden

One of the bleakest, most harrowing films I've seen on _any_ subject, let alone World War II, is Kon Ichikawa's 1959 classic _Fires on the Plain_.









It tells the tale of a Japanese soldier stranded on a Philippine island towards the end of the war, and his struggle to survive against the oncoming allied invasion, sickness, and starvation, among other things. Very much ahead of it's time, and very hard to watch. But worth seeing at least once in my opinion.


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## Wood

*Lang *American guerilla in the Phillipines


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## PetrB

Itulian has already mentioned Peckinpah's _A cross of iron_, which I second as one of the best, and one of the most unforgiving, war flicks I've seen... adding

Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger ~ A Canterbury Tale / A matter of life and death.

I plug these guys movies often enough, I'm fascinated with their combination of odd somewhat surreal aspects combined with their ardent English nationalism, which comes across as much an ode to the land and landscape as much as it us about the people.


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## realdealblues

I don't know that I have any movies in mind that haven't been mentioned, but a Documentary Series...*The World At War*...is one of my favorite things to watch.

For anyone who hasn't seen it it's definitely worth checking out. It's a 26 Episode Series that was broadcast between 1973-1974 and narrated by Laurence Olivier. Amazing Interviews from people who were actually there and worked for Hitler like Karl Donitz and Albert Speer to Hollywood icon James "Jimmy" Stewart who was a combat Pilot, combined with real footage for me it's one of the best documentaries every made.


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## samurai

realdealblues said:


> I don't know that I have any movies in mind that haven't been mentioned, but a Documentary Series...*The World At War*...is one of my favorite things to watch.
> 
> For anyone who hasn't seen it it's definitely worth checking out. It's a 26 Episode Series that was broadcast between 1973-1974 and narrated by Laurence Olivier. Amazing Interviews from people who were actually there and worked for Hitler like Karl Donitz and Albert Speer to Hollywood icon James "Jimmy" Stewart who was a combat Pilot, combined with real footage for me it's one of the best documentaries every made.


You're not called realdealblues for nothing!


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## Itullian

realdealblues said:


> I don't know that I have any movies in mind that haven't been mentioned, but a Documentary Series...*The World At War*...is one of my favorite things to watch.
> 
> For anyone who hasn't seen it it's definitely worth checking out. It's a 26 Episode Series that was broadcast between 1973-1974 and narrated by Laurence Olivier. Amazing Interviews from people who were actually there and worked for Hitler like Karl Donitz and Albert Speer to Hollywood icon James "Jimmy" Stewart who was a combat Pilot, combined with real footage for me it's one of the best documentaries every made.


The best!!!!..................


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## Itullian

Bridge at Ramagan . George Segal


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## moody

Itullian said:


> Bridge at Ramagan . George Segal


It was great and a true story,but I think the acting honours go to Robert Vaughn.


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## Svelte Silhouette

The Battle of Britain. 

It had a not bad music score too.


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## Itullian

Battle of the Bulge, 1965


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## Svelte Silhouette

realdealblues said:


> I don't know that I have any movies in mind that haven't been mentioned, but a Documentary Series...*The World At War*...is one of my favorite things to watch.
> 
> For anyone who hasn't seen it it's definitely worth checking out. It's a 26 Episode Series that was broadcast between 1973-1974 and narrated by Laurence Olivier. Amazing Interviews from people who were actually there and worked for Hitler like Karl Donitz and Albert Speer to Hollywood icon James "Jimmy" Stewart who was a combat Pilot, combined with real footage for me it's one of the best documentaries every made.


I've just got the "ultimate restored edition" of this on DVD.

I remember it from my childhood and that haunting theme music.

I've no idea if it won any awards but it should have if it didn't.


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## SimonNZ

just remembered...Conspiracy

A near real-time recreation of the Wannsee conference. Kenneth Branagh as Heydrich. Stanley Tucci as Eichamann.


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## elgar's ghost

I like Enemy at the Gates mostly for the fact that it conveys convincingly the misery of Stalingrad even though most of the action is centred around the private cat-and-mouse duel between two crack marksmen. It's a pity a movie like that took so long to come about but I suppose during the Cold War era it wasn't the done thing for Hollywood to consider making a high profile film of the conflict from an exclusively Soviet perspective.


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## Ingélou

Before 'The World at War', there was a rather creaky BBC TV series about Churchill called 'The Valiant Years' that featured old newsreels, which we watched regularly.


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## Itullian

Saving Private Ryan
awesome battle scenes.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Itullian said:


> Saving Private Ryan
> awesome battle scenes.


This in some ways reminded me of "Band of brothers" which is also commendable imo.


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## SimonNZ

In memory of director Alain Resnais, who died yesterday:

another vote for Hiroshima, Mon Amour

and Night And Fog


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## Bellinilover

My favorite movie having to do with WWII/the Holocaust is _The Pianist_. It's also one of my favorite movies of all time.


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## kanook

Here's a couple more to add to the list.

South Pacific (1958) - No need to say much as I'm sure everyone's seen this one.

The First Of The Few (1942) - David Niven & Leslie Howard. A biography of R.J. Mitchell, the designer of the Spitfire fighter plane that played such a huge part in the Battle Of Britain.

Waterloo Bridge (1940) - A love story set during WWI but still captures the same mood of separation and struggle.

49th Parallel (1941) - Leslie Howard & Laurence Olivier. A WW2 U-boat crew is stranded in northern Canada. To avoid internment, they must make their way to the border and get into the still-neutral USA.

Czas Honoru (Time of Honor) - An epic WWII Polish TV series of the depiction on how Poland's anti-Nazi resistance was organized and run. The soundtrack consists of great classical music by Polish composer Bartosz Chajdecki and ranks as one of my favourite soundtracks of all time. It almost puts tears in one's eyes. Has English subtitles and is highly recommended.

Katyn (2007) - About the infamous massacre of thousands of Polish officers at Katyn during WWII.

On a lighter side there's some great WWII comedy movies which did their part to help people get through those long cold dark days of war.

Bell-Bottom George (1944) - Starring Ukulele strumming George Formby.

Sailor Beware (1952) - Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis. Lots of laughs.


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## kanook

Johnny Got His Gun (1971) - Synopsis from IMDb...... "Joe, a young American soldier, is hit by a mortar shell on the last day of World War I. He lies in a hospital bed in a fate worse than death --- a quadruple amputee who has lost his arms, legs, eyes, ears, mouth and nose. He remains conscious and able to think, thereby reliving his life through strange dreams and memories, unable to distinguish whether he is awake or dreaming. He remains frustrated by his situation, until one day when Joe discovers a unique way to communicate with his caregivers." I saw this movie at the theater when it came out in 1971 and it still haunts me today. It's the ultimate "anti-war" movie. Be that as it may, the book of the same name by Dalton Trumbo was even better because it skillfully gets into the mind of Joe.


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## SiegendesLicht

joen_cph said:


> Saving Private Ryan, the first half hour.





Itullian said:


> Saving Private Ryan
> awesome battle scenes.


Pardon me if this comment comes across as preachy or something... but I am just wondering what it is exactly that makes people like scenes like the opening battle scene in "Private Ryan" - Europeans murdering other Europeans by the thousand, and what do people feel when they watch them? It's just that I used to like this film too, when I was 15 or 16, but back then I was a very different person (namely young and ignorant), and right now I cannot even remember what it was that I found enjoyable about it nor can I imagine enjoying these scenes right now. What is it, some kind of "let the good guys kill all the bad guys" thing, of the same kind as the warriors of Gondor slaughtering the non-human Orks in the Lord of the Rings series, dehumanizing the enemy, the black-and-white world with absolute good one side of the frontlines and absolute evil on the other side?

Anyway, I gotta go to bed before my ramblings become totally incoherent...


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## KenOC

SiegendesLicht said:


> Pardon me if this comment comes across as preachy or something... but I am just wondering what it is exactly that makes people like scenes like the opening battle scene in "Private Ryan" - Europeans murdering other Europeans by the thousand, and what do people feel when they watch them?


In Studs Terkel's book "The Good War: An Oral History of World War II", a surprising number of veterans considered WW II to be the most important and meaningful experience of their lives. At some level, perhaps people like war movies because they like war.


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## GreenMamba

SiegendesLicht said:


> Pardon me if this comment comes across as preachy or something... but I am just wondering what it is exactly that makes people like scenes like the opening battle scene in "Private Ryan" - Europeans murdering other Europeans by the thousand, and what do people feel when they watch them? It's just that I used to like this film too, when I was 15 or 16, but back then I was a very different person (namely young and ignorant), and right now I cannot even remember what it was that I found enjoyable about it nor can I imagine enjoying these scenes right now. What is it, some kind of "let the good guys kill all the bad guys" thing, of the same kind as the warriors of Gondor slaughtering the non-human Orks in the Lord of the Rings series, dehumanizing the enemy, the black-and-white world with absolute good one side of the frontlines and absolute evil on the other side?
> 
> Anyway, I gotta go to bed before my ramblings become totally incoherent...


It's the realism. People appreciate that these opening scenes give them a sense of how it really was. It enhances their historical understanding of the invasion. I don't think it's an issue of "enjoying" it. I don't think the politics or the sides even matter in this instance (although the rest of the movie is different in this regard).


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## Itullian

To me, because it was such a landmark period in time.
The world was at stake and the world would never be the same.
Thru movies and documentaries I can get a feel for those horrific times and battles.
Most movies soften them.
Ryan makes us see the horror the men went thru and can appreciate them all the more for that.


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## Itullian

Currently watching the landmark 60's tv show Combat on youtube.
It really was a great show. Much attention paid to detail for a tv show.
And what really stands out to me is its heart.
This show had a lot of compassion and poignance.
Check it out.
Great music too.


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## senza sordino

I saw The Monuments Men a few days ago. I liked it, though I knew much of the story. I'm glad this story is finally being told. A few years ago, I saw a documentary called The Rape of Europa. I highly recommend this. About the systematic theft of art by the Nazis. 

BTW, Hitler's paintings are in the vaults of the Smithsonian. Or so we've been told.


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## SiegendesLicht

A good one I saw a few days ago: Into the White - a Norwegian film about two air force crews, a German and a British one, stranded in a storm in northern Norway together.


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## Xaltotun

Never seen a WWII movie I really liked. Probably the Indiana Jones films come closest, just because they drop all pretension to reality and just treat the whole shebang as a light-hearted mythology. The reality of the thing would need a master director to convey, and when I say master I mean a true master. Hey wait - I can think of two films that could _sort of_ be seen as WWII films - WWII is their hidden theme, their secret, so to say. One is Renoir's _Rules of the Game_ which describes the pre-war situation pretty accurately. The other is Chaplin's _Monsieur Verdoux_, a film that masterfully describes the attitude of the aftermath.


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## SiegendesLicht

I like those where all sides are portrayed as actual human beings. Those that follow the scheme "superhero (or several) vs. a mass of human cannon fodder whose only destiny is to be slaughtered by the superhero" - no.


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## geralmar

Attack (1956)
The Long and the Short and the Tall (1961)


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## Xaltotun

Now that I thought about it for a bit, I remembered some WWII films that I do like. None of those are "frontline" films but they all portray life during the war and the war is a major theme in each of them. None of them attempts to do a "total analysis" of the war, though (that _Rules of the Game_ and _Monsieur Verdoux_ may be claimed to do).

Bresson: _A Man Escaped._ This is in my top 3 of all time... an intense, spiritual film that really rises above the historical situation it portrays.
Curtiz: _Casablanca._ Casablanca is harmony and perfection... a Mozart of the film world.
Hawks: _To Have and Have Not._ A less sentimental Casablanca, more existential, less historical perhaps, but more realistic and interesting in terms of psychology.
Huston: _The African Queen._ Love, comedy and gritty realism during the war! Over-the-top characters too, a lovely film.

...

Oh yeah, there's Roberto Rossellini too, with no-nonsense war films! To my shame I haven't seen _Rome, Open City_; I do remember having liked _Paisan_. I didn't like _Germany Year Zero_, though.


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## Bellinilover

Itullian said:


> To me, because it was such a landmark period in time.
> The world was at stake and the world would never be the same.
> Thru movies and documentaries I can get a feel for those horrific times and battles.
> Most movies soften them.
> Ryan makes us see the horror the men went thru and can appreciate them all the more for that.


As Professor Thomas Childers, the American author and authority on WWII, said (I'm paraphrasing): "WWII was, simply, the single biggest 'event' in human history."


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## Wood

Humphrey Jennings: Words for battle






England! Gawd bless 'er!


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## Nate Miller

My granddad and all my uncles were in the war. I always liked the classics. One of my favorites is George C Scott in"Patton" because Grandpa was at Kasserine Pass, and in Sicily, and in Italy. Also my Uncle Roy and Uncle Harvey were both in Patton's 3rd Army. One time, and only one time, as a boy I got to stay and listen while the men talked. Roy and Harvey were telling stories about the counter offensive to Bastogne. George Patton himself standing there in the snow and in the dark directing traffic and all that. Roy, who drove a tank, telling how he didn't eat or sleep for 3 days until they broke through to the 101st. It was riveting stuff. 

so I like all the ones where the Americans are the good guys with the cigarettes and chocolate bars


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## Strange Magic

Two Gregory Peck films: Twelve O'Clock High, about B-17 bomber crews and missions. The Purple Plain, about a Mosquito crew shot down over Burma, and what happens next. James Mason was the definitive Erwin Rommel in The Desert Fox, though Rommel was not exactly the paragon of anti-Nazi virtue that the film depicts.

A great and harrowing movie could be made--maybe a series would be better--of the life, times, and death of Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, the enigmatic head of the German _Abwehr_, military intelligence. Canaris led an amazingly eventful life, first in the German navy in WWI, and then as head of the Abwehr, where anti-Nazi "treason" was rampant to one degree or another. A fascinating character.


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## znapschatz

With apologies to those who think Saving Private Ryan is somehow anti-war because of its realistic depiction of battle carnage, after its harrowing opening sequence, the movie is basically a boy's adventure film, not much different from all the others, and despite the graphic depictions of combat, not at all realistic. Spielberg is so frustrating; a brilliant film maker absolutely steeped in a Hollywood mind set, the happy and/or vindicated ending. An effective war film should make one feel depressed, anxious or dirty after it is seen. Otherwise, it is worthless except as cheap thrill entertainment, and a potentially dangerous one. 

Among best war pix I've seen are "Paths of Glory," about lethal corruption, "King and Country," about injustice and complicity, and "Kanal," an Andrzej Wajda film about the doomed 1944 Warsaw uprising that makes you want to take a shower after seeing it. War films should be grim. Anything that promotes heroism, patriotism, or paints any other lipstick on that pig is a form of seduction. 

I remember once, as a youngster, viewing a movie set during WW2 naval warfare, depicting lots of death and destruction, but with an uplifting ending about comradeship, country and all that. When leaving the theater after the showing, I saw set up in the lobby a navy recruiting display with a two man staff on hand to answer questions. Even at that age I could only marvel at the idea that anyone having watched a depiction of bloody battle would be moved to join up. But it actually happens!


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## Wood

I couldn't get past the opening sequences of Saving Private Ryan, I just thought that it was inconsequential tosh, a bit like those comic books we used to have when our age was in single figures.

Godard's The Carabineers may be the closest to the definitive war film.


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## Wood

Polanski's The Pianist was pretty good.


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## Bellinilover

Wood said:


> Polanski's The Pianist was pretty good.


I think it's a _great_ movie. The detailed, period setting -- it actually does look like it was "lifted" from 1940's Europe -- is the perfect backdrop for the riveting performances of the leads, particularly those of Adrien Brody and Thomas Kretschmann.

*zsnapchatz*: I can't comment on _Saving Private Ryan_ because I haven't seen it, and up to a point I understand what you're saying about "Hollywood." My take on Steven Spielberg, though, is that he just has a very emotional style. What some viewers find schlocky or "sentimental" (now, _there's_ a word that seems to mean different things to different people!) I would describe as "emotional" or "warm." Most of Spielberg's movies I don't care about simply because I don't care for science fiction; but _Schindler's List_ means a great deal to me, and I liked _Lincoln_ so much I saw it in the theater twice. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with having a movie about a painful subject, like war, that has _something_ "uplifting" about it. But _Schindler's List_ I find just as sad as uplifting (if "uplifting" is even the word I'd use): it was certainly good _for those individuals_, and for their descendants, that Schindler did what he did -- but 1200 people was really just a drop in the bucket in the overall scheme of things, wasn't it.

So I simply wouldn't agree that a movie about war, etc. must necessarily make one feel nothing but disgust. I'll give you an example of a movie about a violent event that _did_ make me want to "take a shower" afterwards: _The Passion of the Christ_. But did I like the movie, and would I ever want to watch it again? My answer to both questions is "no." I _was_ horrified -- but I was also alienated. To my mind, this year's _Risen_ -- though more "spiritual" and _far_ less graphic than _Passion_ -- was a much more profound movie about Jesus Christ, and is a movie I could watch multiple times.


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## znapschatz

Wood said:


> Polanski's The Pianist was pretty good.


It was. In general, European directors seem to have a more realistic approach to the context of war than most of the Americans.


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## KenOC

znapschatz said:


> It was. In general, European directors seem to have a more realistic approach to the context of war than most of the Americans.


That may be because for the last century and a half Americans have chosen to fight their wars on somebody else's real estate. Keeps the action at a remove, so to speak.


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## Bellinilover

KenOC said:


> That may be because for the last century and a half Americans have chosen to fight their wars on somebody else's real estate. Keeps the action at a remove, so to speak.


And then there's the fact that Roman Polanski was actually in the Warsaw ghetto and a concentration camp as a child, whereas Steven Spielberg is a descendant of Holocaust victims and survivors.


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## Vaneyes

*Malena* (2000); *Summer of '42 *(1971).


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## Strange Magic

KenOC said:


> That may be because for the last century and a half Americans have chosen to fight their wars on somebody else's real estate. Keeps the action at a remove, so to speak.


You're right. The USA could have sat on its hands and watch Europe be consumed by the Nazis, and did so until December 7, 1941. Then we chose to fight on somebody else's real estate. Good thing, too. Ditto when Kim Il Sung invaded South Korea. After that, the picture grows murkier.


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## KenOC

Strange Magic said:


> You're right. The USA could have sat on its hands and watch Europe be consumed by the Nazis, and did so until December 7, 1941. Then we chose to fight on somebody else's real estate. Good thing, too. Ditto when Kim Il Sung invaded South Korea. After that, the picture grows murkier.


I wonder what would have happened in Europe had the US not participated. Would the USSR have overrun Germany anyway? Even with the allies' second front, the USSR bore the brunt of the fighting and had incredible casualties. This is not something taught in American schools.


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## Strange Magic

KenOC said:


> I wonder what would have happened in Europe had the US not participated. Would the USSR have overrun Germany anyway? Even with the allies' second front, the USSR bore the brunt of the fighting and had incredible casualties. This is not something taught in American schools.


Most TV documentaries I've seen on WWII cover the horrors of the German-Russian war pretty well. What is often overlooked is the fact that Russia signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact, swallowed up the eastern half of Poland, consumed the Baltic states, renewed its war against Finland, and continued to supply Hitler with raw materials, all the while watching cheerfully from the sidelines as France and then England alone fought against the German onslaught for a year and three quarters. There was even discussion about how Russia and Germany might divide up the British and French possessions. Stalin and Hitler--what a pair! They richly deserved one another.


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## KenOC

Strange Magic said:


> Most TV documentaries I've seen on WWII cover the horrors of the German-Russian war pretty well. What is often overlooked is the fact that Russia signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact, swallowed up the eastern half of Poland, consumed the Baltic states, renewed its war against Finland, and continued to supply Hitler with raw materials, all the while watching cheerfully from the sidelines as France and then England alone fought against the German onslaught for a year and three quarters. There was even discussion about how Russia and Germany might divide up the British and French possessions. Stalin and Hitler--what a pair! They richly deserved one another.


Well, this is quite true! It's often overlooked that Prokofiev's so-called "War Sonatas" were written when the USSR was at peace, basking in the German-Russian peace treaty, the so-called Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Of course all that changed, rather quickly. Germany invaded Russia less than two years after the Pact was signed, and the US declared war on Germany only a few months later, after Germany's axis partner, Japan, had attacked Pearl Harbor. Still, Stalin begged for help from the Western allies for quite a while, but had to wait additional years before real relief arrived. He was not happy about this, you betcha.

WW II USSR deaths, both military and civilian, are estimated in the mid-20 millions. This is about 50 times total US deaths in the European and Pacific theaters combined.


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## SiegendesLicht

KenOC said:


> I wonder what would have happened in Europe had the US not participated. *Would the USSR have overrun Germany anyway?* Even with the allies' second front, the USSR bore the brunt of the fighting and had incredible casualties. This is not something taught in American schools.


Yes, it would.......


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## Strange Magic

SiegendesLicht said:


> Yes, it would.......


No, not necessarily. It somewhat depends upon how one defines "participated". The USSR and the English received enormous amounts of weapons, food, other materiel from the US. Without that aid, it is problematic whether they would have defeated Hitler. It is also problematic, even given the aid, whether they would have defeated Hitler without the US getting involved in the fighting, especially the big invasions--North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Normandy. No Western Front then, only the Germans throwing everything into the Eastern Front.


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## Nate Miller

KenOC said:


> Well, this is quite true! It's often overlooked that Prokofiev's so-called "War Sonatas" were written when the USSR was at peace, basking in the German-Russian peace treaty, the so-called Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Of course all that changed, rather quickly. Germany invaded Russia less than two years after the Pact was signed, and the US declared war on Germany only a few months later, after Germany's axis partner, Japan, had attacked Pearl Harbor. Still, Stalin begged for help from the Western allies for quite a while, but had to wait additional years before real relief arrived. He was not happy about this, you betcha.
> 
> WW II USSR deaths, both military and civilian, are estimated in the mid-20 millions. This is about 50 times total US deaths in the European and Pacific theaters combined.


so where did you go to school then? America?

leave it to our Californian countrymen to hate America


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## znapschatz

Strange Magic said:


> No, not necessarily. It somewhat depends upon how one defines "participated". The USSR and the English received enormous amounts of weapons, food, other materiel from the US. Without that aid, it is problematic whether they would have defeated Hitler. It is also problematic, even given the aid, whether they would have defeated Hitler without the US getting involved in the fighting, especially the big invasions--North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Normandy. No Western Front then, only the Germans throwing everything into the Eastern Front.


It is impossible to know what would have happened "if." But the Soviets had already achieved the strategic offensive against Nazi Germany before significant aid arrived from the US. The Eastern front chewed up 90% of Germany's war resources and 80% of its casualties before the second front was opened, and even after, the scale of Soviet operations dwarfed those of the Allies, significant as they were. The Soviets were always grateful for the materiel aid and reiterated that even during the frostiest days of the Cold War, but an accurate description of WW2 against the Axis was that the Soviets won it with important help from the other Allies. In fact, among strategic considerations behind the Normandy invasion was to prevent the Soviets from occupying the whole of Europe.


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## SiegendesLicht

Nate Miller said:


> so where did you go to school then? America?
> 
> leave it to our Californian countrymen to hate America


How exactly does stating that the losses of the Soviet Union were much greater than those of the USA constitute hating America?


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## SiegendesLicht

znapschatz said:


> With apologies to those who think Saving Private Ryan is somehow anti-war because of its realistic depiction of battle carnage, after its harrowing opening sequence, the movie is basically a boy's adventure film, not much different from all the others, and despite the graphic depictions of combat, not at all realistic. Spielberg is so frustrating; a brilliant film maker absolutely steeped in a Hollywood mind set, the happy and/or vindicated ending. An effective war film should make one feel depressed, anxious or dirty after it is seen. Otherwise, it is worthless except as cheap thrill entertainment, *and a potentially dangerous one*.


Not sure about dangerous, but it is still a fact that millions of people view Germany through the lens of these movies like "Ryan" and the "Basterds". That is the only thing they know. Not Bach or Wagner, not even the beer and the Alps - just these movies.


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## helenora

going back to a topic of a thread once I was impressed by and didn´t expect to see such a documentary as *" The Battle of Russia" by Frank Capra*


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## Nate Miller

SiegendesLicht said:


> How exactly does stating that the losses of the Soviet Union were much greater than those of the USA constitute hating America?


bashing American schools and diminishing America's contribution is what I thought was hating on America

what the Russian people went through was some of the most horrific war I can imagine, and to have one of my countrymen say that we, as Americans, are oblivious to that is also wrong. I know about it, he knows about it...so how can it be that Americans don't know what the Russians went through?

I heard from a Ukranian coworker that by the end of July in 1941 there weren't any drivable cars left because the people loaded into whatever transportation they could find with whatever arms they had and drove toward the sounds of shooting to defend their homeland. That's pretty intense. I would do that if somebody was invading southern Pennsylvania.

and so suffering a Californian bashing on America was a little much this early in the morning


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## Strange Magic

znapschatz said:


> It is impossible to know what would have happened "if." But the Soviets had already achieved the strategic offensive against Nazi Germany before significant aid arrived from the US. The Eastern front chewed up 90% of Germany's war resources and 80% of its casualties before the second front was opened, and even after, the scale of Soviet operations dwarfed those of the Allies, significant as they were. The Soviets were always grateful for the materiel aid and reiterated that even during the frostiest days of the Cold War, but an accurate description of WW2 against the Axis was that the Soviets won it with important help from the other Allies. In fact, among strategic considerations behind the Normandy invasion was to prevent the Soviets from occupying the whole of Europe.


I agree with your assessment. And it's a very good thing that we didn't find that the Germans won. Hitler bit off more than he could chew by invading Russia, but also made key decisions along the way--both before and during the campaign--that sapped the strength of the German effort. As a sidebar, it's also important to note how important certain weapons were for the Allies; the T-34 tank for the Russians, and the Hurricane and Spitfire fighters for the British stand out, though one could go on ad infinitum on this subject.


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## znapschatz

helenora said:


> going back to a topic of a thread once I was impressed by and didn´t expect to see such a documentary as *" The Battle of Russia" by Frank Capra*


That one had an interesting history. Capra had to put it together from Russian sources pre-war and was given absolutely no resources beyond what his studio had on hand. So he spliced bits and pieces from odd sources, including from a print of "Alexander Nevsky," (of all things!), Russian choral music, Hollywood war films, and cobbled together a narrative. The finished product was actually not half bad. It's a good story that cinemaphiles might want to check out.


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## Wood

Nate Miller said:


> and so suffering a Californian bashing on America was a little much this early in the morning


Does it make a difference that the American bashing America lives in California? That is, if someone from Arkansas or somewhere else bashed America, would it matter less?

I like to severely criticise USA's post war Imperialism, even when it is OT , but I am not even an American. Is that better or worse?


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## Guest

_Downfall._ An incredibly powerful, grim, and gripping portrayal (fictionalized) of Hitler's last days.


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## Genoveva

KenOC said:


> I wonder what would have happened in Europe had the US not participated. Would the USSR have overrun Germany anyway? Even with the allies' second front, the USSR bore the brunt of the fighting and had incredible casualties. This is not something taught in American schools.


It's academic since Germany declared war on the USA, and therefore did not decide to "participate" but got dragged in against its will as a follow-on from the attack on Pearl Harbour.

Once the USA got dragged in, Churchill and Roosevelt agreed that priority should be given to dealing with Hitler, and to deal with the Japs later. In doing so, the USA and UK supplied vast amounts of military equipment to the Soviet Union, roughly 20% of their requirements, in tanks, other military vehicles, aircraft etc. In the absence of this aid and equipment, the chances of the Soviet Union withstanding defeat would clearly have been reduced.

Without the USA's involvement in the war in Europe, and if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union, it's as near certain as can be that the UK would have been over-run sooner or later, despite the Battle of Britain victory in summer 1940.

The Brit's decision to declare war on Germany in 1939 was, to all intents and purposes, an act of immense bravery (some might say folly) because there was no way they could have expected to defeat Germany without the massive help provided by the USA and USSR, neither of which could have been anticipated at the time. The fact that Hitler invaded Poland was of course the trigger for Britain and France to declare war, but there was nothing the Brits could do about it, as it was a fait accompli. The French hardly lasted more than a few months, and the Brits soon got booted out of Dunkirk. Britain almost "bought it" in the summer of 1940.

Hitler had no special reason to want to invade the UK. In fact he quite admired the Brits and did not see them as an enemy of Germany. And yet if the Brits hadn't intervened, and taken the gamble on gaining support, the evil consequences of Hitler and the Nazis would have been even more ghastly to contemplate in terms of the probable killing of even more Jews and other ethnic groups, not to mention the fact that further democratic regimes all over Europe would have fallen prey to the monster, Hitler

...

P.S I think that Saving Private Ryan was a good movie, as far as things of that nature go. The best war "movies" however are the various TV documentaries that have been produced, containing wartime video of events at the time together with intelligent commentary and interviews etc. I'm thinking of series such as "The World at War" that was produced in the 1970s, but which is still occasionally being shown on UK tv. There are several other such documentaries.


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## znapschatz

I certainly agree about *The World At War*, in my opinion still the best documentary series on WW2 in both concept and execution. There are other good ones made years later that benefitted from continuing research and new discoveries, but TWAW had the best edit and tone of this enormously complex event, and no nonsense about the glories of war. Plus, unforgettable signature music.


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## helenora

znapschatz said:


> That one had an interesting history. Capra had to put it together from Russian sources pre-war and was given absolutely no resources beyond what his studio had on hand. So he spliced bits and pieces from odd sources, including from a print of "Alexander Nevsky," (of all things!), Russian choral music, Hollywood war films, and cobbled together a narrative. The finished product was actually not half bad. It's a good story that cinemaphiles might want to check out.


very interesting! and it explains why the documentary is good hahaha, because Mr Capra didn't interfere with that or just a little bit as of adding a narrative and some music


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## geralmar

Sink the Bismarck (1960)
The Dam Busters (1955). Pity the name of the dog.
The Enemy Below (1958)
The Caine Mutiny (1954)
Commandos (1968). Guilty pleasure.

Taking credit for someone else's accomplishments:
Objective, Burma (1945)
U-571 (2000)


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## Dr Johnson

A Bridge Too Far
Anzio
Das Boot 
Downfall
Fury
Saving Private Ryan
The Battle Of Britain
The Cruel Sea
The Eagle Has Landed
The Thin Red Line
Von Ryan's Express
Where Eagles Dare (I suppose this qualifies as a "guilty pleasure". Helicopters indeed!)


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## Guest




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## Dr Johnson

Cross Of Iron! One I forgot.


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## Guest




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## hpowders

The Best Years Of Our Lives (1946)
Myrna Loy, Frederic March, Dana Andrews, Teresa Wright

Deals with the aftermath of World War 2 and is a Hollywood peak.


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## Pugg

Traverso said:


> View attachment 90114
> View attachment 90109
> View attachment 90110
> View attachment 90112
> View attachment 90113


You did your homework very well Traverso. :tiphat:


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## Zhdanov

*Stalingrad* - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_(1990_film)


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## Zhdanov

*The Battle of Stalingrad* _(1949 Mosfilm)_ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Stalingrad_(film)


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## Zhdanov

*The Liberation* _(Mosfilm 1969-1971)_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_(film_series)


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## Zhdanov

*Burning Snow* _(1972 Mosfilm)_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Snow_(film)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese




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## pcnog11

Saving Private Ryan has a beautiful score from John Williams. Second to none.


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## SiegendesLicht

To all who enjoy Das Boot: there are at least two surviving German submarines of that era on display as museum ships now. One of exactly the same type as the submarine in Das Boot is in Laboe, Germany, another one, of a bigger type - in Chicago, USA.


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## Guest

If you need a good cry...


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## Chronochromie

The Cranes Are Flying (1957)


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## znapschatz

Good film. Very moving.


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## Triplets

I just saw Anthropoid. It's about the assasination of Reinhard Heydrich. Very dramatic with an excellent feel for the tension of life in Occupied Prague


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## Zhdanov

*Hunde, Wollt Ihr Ewig Leben* (1959) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad:_Dogs,_Do_You_Want_to_Live_Forever?


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## Fenestella

Films about Russian home front I find impressive: 
Vstuplenie (1963) "Introduction"
Do svidaniya, malchiki! (1964) "Goodbye, Boys!"
Starye Druzia (1977) "Old Friends "
Pani Maria (1979) "Madam Maria"

I'm also trying to recall impressive films about Western Allies' home front, off the top of my head:
Swing Shift (1984)


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## Hania22

I just want to watch this , Thanks to share this.


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## znapschatz

Fenestella said:


> Films about Russian home front I find impressive:
> Vstuplenie (1963) "Introduction"
> Do svidaniya, malchiki! (1964) "Goodbye, Boys!"
> Starye Druzia (1977) "Old Friends "
> Pani Maria (1979) "Madam Maria"


Add *The Cranes are Flying*.



> I'm also trying to recall impressive films about Western Allies' home front, off the top of my head:
> Swing Shift (1984)


My favorite is *The Best Years of Our Lives*, although it is set in the early months after the war.


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## Vaneyes

Amazing how WWII movies and documentaries still get huge play every day. They have since WWII. There won't be that "luxury" when WWIII occurs.

Related:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/towards-a-world-war-iii-scenario-breaking-the-big-lie/5348384

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_III


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## znapschatz

Fenestella said:


> Films about Russian home front I find impressive:
> Vstuplenie (1963) "Introduction"
> Do svidaniya, malchiki! (1964) "Goodbye, Boys!"
> Starye Druzia (1977) "Old Friends "
> Pani Maria (1979) "Madam Maria"
> 
> *I'm also trying to recall impressive films about Western Allies' home front, off the top of my head:
> Swing Shift (1984)*


*Mrs. Miniver* was awfully good. It was a 1942 film set in England during the blitz, directed by William Wyler, featuring Greer Garson in the title role and Walter Pidgeon as her husband. It got a lot of awards and was ranked 40th in the AFI list of most inspirational films.


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## Bettina

Inglourious Basterds (my spellcheck program is screaming at me to correct this, but that's actually how the film title is spelled :lol. A great blend of historical accuracy and fanciful imagining! I love the whole idea of an alternate history.


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## Richard8655

Zhdanov said:


> *The Battle of Stalingrad* _(1949 Mosfilm)_ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Stalingrad_(film)


These look very interesting. I think we Americans know so little about the Russian (Soviet) perspective of the war. They lost so many lives and suffered so much compared to us. I plan to view more of them and hope they have subtitles.

In the meantime, these 2 American films about the war impressed me as they seemed provide intelligent and interesting perspectives:

The Victors
Battlefield


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## Brahmsian Colors

Casablanca and The Train


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## Pugg

Schindler's List, if that's counting as World War II movie.


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## AfterHours

Some of these are only marginally "War" films, and could be classified more accurately by other genres/sub-genres, but WW II is a prominent backdrop and/or at the forefront in each... In any case, these are my top films that feature such:

1. Underground - Emir Kusturica (1995) 
2. Europa - Lars Von Trier (1991) 
3. Hiroshima, Mon Amour - Alain Resnais (1959) 
4. Schindler's List - Steven Spielberg (1993) 
5. Come and See - Elim Klimov (1985) 
6. Black Rain - Shohei Imamura (1988)
7. The Great Dictator - Charlie Chaplin (1940) 
8. To Be or Not To Be - Ernst Lubitsch (1942) 
9. Life is Beautiful - Roberto Benigni (1997) 
10. Das Boot - Wolfgang Petersen (1981)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

How America won WW2 all by themselves with no help from anyone else- I've seen that movie so many times now its boring.......................


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## Pugg

Related to the war: The boy in the striped pyjama.


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## Strange Magic

A few outliers:

5 Fingers (1952): Good spy movie, based on real spy for Germany. James Mason.
The Heroes of Telemark (1965): The attempt to sabotage the Norwegian heavy water plant that might have aided the German A-bomb research program. Kirk Douglas.


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