# classical music is so gay



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Clickbait title, don't worry.

While I no longer run into people who have that sentiment, since the only people who say Classical is gay are high school boys, it's something I've noticed to be a general reception to classical, and the arts in general.

This might just be an American thing, but why is it that our pop culture shows Classical to be "gay" or "emasculating"? i.e., in media, we usually see art music being enjoyed by rich, kind of wimpy, more effeminate men, and these are usually the bad guys. Like, to show that the protagonist [and ergo, the (typically) male audience] is more relatable and fulfilling a power fantasy by being hypermasculine, strong, badass, gets any woman he wants, and enjoying art music does not appear on this checklist, rather that is how we identify the antagonist.

And why is the idea of a feminine or effeminate art somehow degrading? Is this just sexism and trying to keep in line with gender roles? And if so, how is music gendered in this way?

Sorry if this all looks like word vomit and seems confusing, but I am tired right now and am in a way just vomiting thoughts and observations that i've wanted to start a discussion about for the longest time.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Have you read this article by Alex Ross? Covers this topic very well.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/finally-a-non-embarrassing-classical-music-scene-in-a-blockbuster-movie


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe I come from geek culture which might also be considered a little effete, but I remember Alex in A Clockwork Orange being a big fan of good old Ludwig Van. And Captain Picard of Star Trek digging Mozart, and Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore from Apocalypse Now having a thing for Wagner. 

So I'm not sure this misconception is entirely across the board. 

Then again, the people who might secretly harbor that kind of sentiment also might not be able to connect with those shows and films meaningfully. 

I've experienced a bit of that prejudice in my day to day encounters too. I don't think there is any conscious malice involved. It's just ignorance and the perpetuating of cliches.

That works both ways though. I'm sure my perception of country music as a whiny celebration of self destruction for uneducated losers springs from ignorance on my part too. But on that topic I'll remain in ignorant bliss.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Gene Simmons (the lead singer of Kiss) provides one side of the argument:

"I think Shakespeare is a ****. Absolute ****! He may have been a genius in his time, but I just can't relate to that stuff. Thees and thous - the guy sounds like a f_____t."


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

It's been an American thing for a long time now. Ives, as a rugged, masculine American, was very self-conscious about it. I think that the problem today is not so much being perceived as effeminate as elitist or nerdy.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Some will say you're gay. Some will say you're weird. Some will say you're a snob. Some will say you must be European (no kidding), especially if you say "Moats-art" instead of "Moes-art." Some won't say anything for fear of appearing dumb. Those are the smart ones.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I have been called "nerdy" for listening to classical when I was younger.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Some will say you're gay. Some will say you're weird. Some will say you're a snob. Some will say you must be European (no kidding), especially if you say "Moats-art" instead of "Moes-art." Some won't say anything for fear of appearing dumb. Those are the smart ones.


Some will even accuse you of being a '***'!










SCANDALOUS!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Morimur said:


> Some will even accuse you of being a '***'!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha. Think you can smoke us out, do you.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Classical music is emotional and intellectual. Current American men's etiquette is to repress any public display of both. 

As for Classical Music being "gay", that's not so much an insult to classical music as it is an undeserved accolade to gay people. Gay music is a man dressed as a woman lip-syncing Madonna, hardly on the same level as Beethoven's Late Quartets.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Classical music is emotional and intellectual. Current American men's etiquette is to repress any public display of both.
> 
> As for Classical Music being "gay", that's not so much an insult to classical music as it is an undeserved accolade to gay people. Gay music is a man dressed as a woman lip-syncing Madonna, hardly on the same level as Beethoven's Late Quartets.


Thank you for explaining to us what gay music is, and making clear what sort of accolades gay people deserve.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> Gene Simmons (the lead singer of Kiss) provides one side of the argument:
> 
> "I think Shakespeare is a ****. Absolute ****! He may have been a genius in his time, but I just can't relate to that stuff. Thees and thous - the guy sounds like a f_____t."


That's Gene for you - still feeling the need to assert his masculinity after all these years like an old barnyard rooster in fear of losing the respect of his hens.

Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead once freely admitted to liking the work of P.G. Wodehouse and that didn't seem to have any detrimental effect on his street cred.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

I think that the usual reaction by those who don't like it in the UK would be that it is dull or "stuffy". Perhaps determined inverted snobs would condemn it as elitist or "la-di da".


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

^
^

Extra bonus points for your Mighty Boosh avatar.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Classical music is emotional and intellectual. Current American men's etiquette is to repress any public display of both.


Living in the US, I think of cars. 50-60 years ago, cars were fanciful sculptures, widely different and invariably flamboyant. The quality was crappy, but they made a statement. Or, if you like, a lot of statements.

Today cars all look like variants of the Universal Japanese Machine, yes, even outliers like the Tesla. I guess it's considered dangerous, or in bad taste, to exercise some creativity.

The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Couchie said:


> As for Classical Music being "gay", that's not so much an insult to classical music as it is an undeserved accolade to gay people. *Gay music is a man dressed as a woman lip-syncing Madonna*, hardly on the same level as Beethoven's Late Quartets.


Eh? Where do you get that idea from?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Living in the US, I think of cars. 50-60 years ago, cars were fanciful sculptures, widely different and invariably flamboyant. The quality was crappy, but they made a statement. Or, if you like, a lot of statements.
> 
> Today cars all look like variants of the Universal Japanese Machine, yes, even outliers like the Tesla. I guess it's considered dangerous, or in bad taste, to exercise some creativity.
> 
> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?


It has retreated from delusions of omnipotence, immortality, and a fossil fuel fountain of youth. Except possibly in Texas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

What you're saying, I think, is that America has lost its mojo.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Thank you for explaining to us what gay music is, and making clear what sort of accolades gay people deserve.


There is no doubt that drag performance is a more constituent part of contemporary gay culture than Beethoven's String Quartets. That's not to say that gays are underrepresented at symphonies or operas though. But reality is reality.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Eh? Where do you get that idea from?


The flyers posted on my street. I do live in Vancouver's West End, ie. "Gay Mecca".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> There is no doubt that drag performance is a more constituent part of contemporary gay culture than Beethoven's String Quartets. That's not to say that gays are underrepresented at symphonies or operas though. But reality is reality.
> 
> *I do live in Vancouver's West End, ie. "Gay Mecca".*


Now I understand your perspective.

I don't think you'll find "gay meccas" to be representative of the "reality" of gay people in general. You're speaking of a "subculture" in which most gays don't participate. Where I live gay culture looks exactly like everyone else's culture (though possibly slightly better :lol.


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## TradeMark (Mar 12, 2015)

I think the important word here is "high school boys" I remember having a high school fiend who said "the problem with classical music is that you can't 'bump' it in a car" (I didn't bother arguing with him). A lot of high school kids tend to say stupid things so I don't take these things to seriously. Hopefully they'll grow out of it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Living in the US, I think of cars. 50-60 years ago, cars were fanciful sculptures, widely different and invariably flamboyant. The quality was crappy, but they made a statement. Or, if you like, a lot of statements.
> 
> Today cars all look like variants of the Universal Japanese Machine, yes, even outliers like the Tesla. I guess it's considered dangerous, or in bad taste, to exercise some creativity.
> 
> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?


Personally I can only tell a Hyundai from a Mercedes by viewing the logo on the car. And Mercedes don't even have those distinctive ornaments anymore. I think the phenomenon goes well beyond America.

Western culture of course, in general, has been in rapid decline since its absolute peak in 1882.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

It's the politics of them-or-us. The effeminate billionaire with plans to take over the world listens to classical music for the same reason that the main cast of _Exodus: Gods and Kings_ was made up almost exclusively of white Americans.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Crudblud said:


> It's the politics of them-or-us. The effeminate billionaire with plans to take over the world listens to classical music for the same reason that the main cast of _Exodus: Gods and Kings_ was made up almost exclusively of white Americans.


Taking over the world, or even attempting to do that, sounds pretty manly to me (for better or worse).


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Living in the US, I think of cars. 50-60 years ago, cars were fanciful sculptures, widely different and invariably flamboyant. The quality was crappy, but they made a statement. Or, if you like, a lot of statements.
> 
> Today cars all look like variants of the Universal Japanese Machine, yes, even outliers like the Tesla. I guess it's considered dangerous, or in bad taste, to exercise some creativity.
> 
> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?


Isn't that mostly because of safety issues? Those fancy looking cars were deathtraps after all.

The chevy volt looked nice as a prototype but its design was so poor that it was more aerodynamic when driving backwards.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> Taking over the world, or even attempting to do that, sounds pretty manly to me (for better or worse).


So no Mozart then.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Morimur said:


> Some will even accuse you of being a '***'!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Smoking on T C, disgraceful, where are the Mods. Any more of this and its the Thought Police and room 101.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The US has been dumbing down for decades. We have become the society of Fahrenheit 451 in all but the book burning, and even that wouldn't surprise me much.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?


If by "dull and depressing conformity" you mean corruption and moral decay? Positively.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Living in the US, I think of cars. 50-60 years ago, cars were fanciful sculptures, widely different and invariably flamboyant. The quality was crappy, but they made a statement. Or, if you like, a lot of statements.
> 
> Today cars all look like variants of the Universal Japanese Machine, yes, even outliers like the Tesla. I guess it's considered dangerous, or in bad taste, to exercise some creativity.
> 
> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?


Let's face it, KenOC, American cars have _never_ been known for being well designed (fuel efficiency? HA!). It took the "Universal Japanese Machine" to smack some sense into the complacent American automobile industry . . . and they haven't yet caught up. The exception being Tesla, of course, which is an amazing machine-kudos, Silicon Valley.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm not sure there's any point in trying to merge the idea that classical music is "so gay"- a kind of all-purpose playground insult levelled at anything considered uncool by the kids in question- with a discussion of classical music in gay culture. (If there even is one thing called "gay culture" and it still exists, I've got no idea.) I'm sure there are many people here who could enlighten us, but this thread doesn't seem to be a likely place for a serious discussion that is respectful towards minorities.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Piwikiwi said:


> Isn't that mostly because of safety issues? Those fancy looking cars were deathtraps after all.
> 
> The chevy volt looked nice as a prototype but its design was so poor that it was more aerodynamic when driving backwards.


Cars are insanely better today than they were back in the glory days. Sure, the old ones looked great, but even then, most people couldn't afford a '57 Chevy.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I'm not sure there's any point in trying to merge the idea that classical music is "so gay"- a kind of all-purpose playground insult levelled at anything considered uncool by the kids in question- with a discussion of classical music in gay culture. (If there even is one thing called "gay culture" and it still exists, I've got no idea.) I'm sure there are many people here who could enlighten us, but this thread doesn't seem to be a likely place for a serious discussion that is respectful towards minorities.


Minorities stole my bicycle.


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## TwoPhotons (Feb 13, 2015)

I guess it's because it's more or less a fashionable thing to say. Classical music can be quite difficult to appreciate at first because often it's not written to grab someone's attention the same way that most popular music does. Also, because much of the classical music repetoire was written many years ago some youngsters won't see it as 'current', and thus dismiss it as old and unimportant in our generation. 

Pesonally I've always been very open about my love of classical music, even if some people at school used to think it was a bit "gay" and unconventional. If you stand strongly by your tastes then you shouldn't have much to worry about, because if you're surrounded by at least decent human beings then they will understand.  

I think one thing people should remember though is not to impose your tastes on others. Many people will instinctively feel pressured to dislike whatever it is you want to show them. You can tell them what you like to listen to and suggest they have a go as well, but if they say they dislike it, just leave it at that and let them get on with what they want to hear, rather than bullying them into liking classical music (which will never work!).


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

TwoPhotons said:


> I guess it's because it's more or less a fashionable thing to say. Classical music can be quite difficult to appreciate at first because often it's not written to grab someone's attention the same way that most popular music does. Also, because much of the classical music repetoire was written many years ago some youngsters won't see it as 'current', and thus dismiss it as old and unimportant in our generation.
> 
> Pesonally I've always been very open about my love of classical music, even if some people at school used to think it was a bit "gay" and unconventional. If you stand strongly by your tastes then you shouldn't have much to worry about, because if you're surrounded by at least decent human beings then they will understand.
> 
> I think one thing people should remember though is not to impose your tastes on others. Many people will instinctively feel pressured to dislike whatever it is you want to show them. You can tell them what you like to listen to and suggest they have a go as well, but if they say they dislike it, just leave it at that and let them get on with what they want to hear, rather than bullying them into liking classical music (which will never work!).


'Bullying them into liking classical music'- who does that? Sports fan often try to badger people into pretending to enjoy soccer or the Olympics or whatever, but that's because sports fans are arseholes and theirs is not a niche interest. People with actual niche interests- classical music, building model railways, whatever- are usually resigned to the fact that the rest of the world doesn't care, and don't waste energy trying to change that fact.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

TwoPhotons said:


> I guess it's because it's more or less a fashionable thing to say. Classical music can be quite difficult to appreciate at first because often it's not written to grab someone's attention the same way that most popular music does. Also, because much of the classical music repetoire was written many years ago some youngsters won't see it as 'current', and thus dismiss it as old and unimportant in our generation.
> 
> Pesonally I've always been very open about my love of classical music, even if some people at school used to think it was a bit "gay" and unconventional. If you stand strongly by your tastes then you shouldn't have much to worry about, because if you're surrounded by at least decent human beings then they will understand.
> 
> I think one thing people should remember though is not to impose your tastes on others. Many people will instinctively feel pressured to dislike whatever it is you want to show them. You can tell them what you like to listen to and suggest they have a go as well, but if they say they dislike it, just leave it at that and let them get on with what they want to hear, rather than bullying them into liking classical music (which will never work!).


Yeah, there was this one time I broke a guy's legs and forced him to listen to Beethoven for hours on end because he said he didn't like classical music. I told him "You'll listen to it until you like it . . . MOTHERF*CK£R!

Prison was hard.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> 'Bullying them into liking classical music'- who does that? Sports fan often try to badger people into pretending to enjoy soccer or the Olympics or whatever, but that's *because sports fans are arseholes *and theirs is not a niche interest. People with actual niche interests- classical music, building model railways, whatever- are usually resigned to the fact that the rest of the world doesn't care, and don't waste energy trying to change that fact.


There are plenty of us who like sports and Classical music. So if it isn't "bullying," it's at least sneering.


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## TwoPhotons (Feb 13, 2015)

Well I've met some people who denounce popular music and claim that if you don't like Messiaen or Stravinsky then you're musically "stupid". I completely disagree of course, but you're not going to make other people love classical music if you act like that.

Is classical music really a niche interest? Maybe it's not incredibly common but I wouldn't call it niche. Depends on the classical music I suppose!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> There are plenty of us who like sports and Classical music. So if it isn't "bullying," it's at least sneering.


Sorry, I should have said '_some_ sports fans are [slightly milder expletive]'- and only a couple of posts after complaining that the OP was lowering the tone... I guess I'm just a big hypocrite.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> Sorry, I should have said '_some_ sports fans are [slightly milder expletive]'- and only a couple of posts after complaining that the OP was lowering the tone... I guess I'm just a big hypocrite.


Well, some sports fans are awful, only slightly less rambunctious than many opera fans


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> ...since the only people who say Classical is gay are high school boys, it's something I've noticed to be a general reception to classical, and the arts in general.
> 
> This might just be an American thing, but why is it that our pop culture shows Classical to be "gay" or "emasculating"?


The same "high school boys" who find Classical music and arts "emasculating" tend to be those who also don't audition for the school play -- "It's so gay!" Of course, these same folks worship at the shrines of Rambo, Rocky, The Terminator, and Xandor Cage, but they don't seem to know that these characters are ... characters! Played by actors! Artists!

It's plain stupidity. That's all.

Some of them may grow out of it. The others, hopefully, will never feel a compulsion to vote in elections.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I think it depends where in the U.S. you are. I grew up in the upper Midwest and encountered this attitude a _little_, but not really that much. I've been in New York my whole adult life and no one here cares what music anyone else listens to. There's also a pretty high concentration of classical music lovers, and musicians. Among educated young professional types here, going to the symphony or opera once in a while is considered a totally normal thing to do, even if you don't listen to classical music as a rule.

American culture across regions and social strata has _always_ been anti-intellectual, since the Puritans, which has had both good and bad consequences.


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## Chipomarc (Jul 18, 2015)

I'm comfortable with waving the classical music flag in public, but opera is still in the closet with me.

The other day when I put Le nozze di Figaro on I had to go out into the hallway of my condo and listen at my door to make sure no one could hear what I was doing inside my apartment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Sorry, I should have said '_some_ sports fans are [slightly milder expletive]'- and only a couple of posts after complaining that the OP was lowering the tone... I guess I'm just a big hypocrite.


If "sports fans" include the jocks/jerks I went to school with, your expletive was an understatement. Since those idyllic days of youth I have associated with only one sports fan, and he loves classical music passionately. Because of him, I, who learned from my peers and from prying my lips off a frozen trombone mouthpiece at football half time shows to loathe sports, will be joining him in watching the U.S. Open this month. Go Federer!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Weston said:


> I'm sure my perception of country music as a whiny celebration of self destruction for uneducated losers springs from ignorance on my part too. But on that topic I'll remain in ignorant bliss.


I don't know about whiny self-destruction, but my impression is that country music is the only music that can produce a four-minute song chronicling an entire history of passionate love and loss without ever leaving the tonic triad. Wagner could have learned something about musical economy from Tammie Rae Rhinestone.


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## TwoPhotons (Feb 13, 2015)

Chipomarc said:


> I'm comfortable with waving the classical music flag in public, but opera is still in the closet with me.
> 
> The other day when I put Le nozze di Figaro on I had to go out into the hallway of my condo and listen at my door to make sure no one could hear what I was doing inside my apartment.


But one day someone will come along, knock at your door and say: "Are you listening to Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro? I _love_ Figaro!!!" At which point you should close the door in his/her face as fast as possible, thinking to yourself: _Jeez, these classical music fans are so GAY!_

I had a lab partner at university who worked with me on a month-long project. I did not know them personally beforehand. One day we decided to sit down for lunch together and have a chat. I remember it was a very warm, sunny day, with birds singing softly amongst the rustling trees...

As you can imagine, one thing led to another and...... 

She asked me about what kind of music I like to listen to.

I told her about this R. Strauss opera I was listening to back then, expecting her to think of me as some nerdy freak. To my surprise, it turned out that she had studied the opera subject before and wrote an essay on it. We had something to talk about! 

So, you see, you never know.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I'm not sure there's any point in trying to merge the idea that classical music is "so gay"- a kind of all-purpose playground insult levelled at anything considered uncool by the kids in question- with a discussion of classical music in gay culture. (If there even is one thing called "gay culture" and it still exists, I've got no idea.) I'm sure there are many people here who could enlighten us, but this thread doesn't seem to be a likely place for a serious discussion that is respectful towards minorities.


I agree with you, however what I was trying to do was start a discussion on why those insecure with their masculinity find the arts as some kind of threat. Like, why are they dismissed as being something other, or why is there the stereotype that the arts are feminine in American culture. Side note, can't speak for other minorities, but I am gay and have yet to be offended by anything said here


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

This reminds me of how Putin and many in the Russian government would deny Tchaikovsky's sexuality, so as not to embarrass their nation. Yeah, that's what's embarrassing your nation, Putin.

I don't know, the association with effeminacy or homosexuality is nothing I've ever cared about. I proudly listen to classical music and attend the ballet (does it get more "gay" than ballet? Although I think the film _Black Swan_ helped show some of my friends that ballet isn't just prissy ballerinas prancing around in tutus). Classical music is seen as artsy and delicate and doesn't have the "hard" sound that the more raw "manly" genres like rock do. Of course, there's a lot of classical music that easily could dispel that stereotype of soft sound and delicacy, but it doesn't even have to. The music for harp and flute (which I'm listening to now) isn't any more "gay" than the war symphonies of Shostakovich. And I enjoy both, as well as traditionally "bro" genres like dubstep.

However, as others here are stating, I see the association of classical music as being elitist, boring, and stuffy a lot more than the "effeminate" stereotype. Yes, the association of effeminacy with inferiority stems from deep-seated sexism and society's definition of what it means to be a "real man". Under many popular definitions, attending the ballet, symphony, and the opera is not part of the criteria, and would work against that defintion.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Tristan said:


> This reminds me of how Putin and many in the Russian government would deny Tchaikovsky's sexuality, so as not to embarrass their nation. Yeah, that's what's embarrassing your nation, Putin.


Aside from the fact he's a mass murderer, there ain't nothin' wrong with Putin.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

I cannot believe this topic of this thread is to be taken seriously...


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## Chipomarc (Jul 18, 2015)

KRoad said:


> I cannot believe this topic of this thread is to be taken seriously...


Really? This might change your mind.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you want to judge how rational this whole business is, consider the fact that classical music is the only thing in the world that's considered both stuffy and gay.

Do you want your children exposed to that stuffy gay lifestyle?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Classical music to put on to defend yourself against accusations of having a gay or nerdy sensibility:
Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, preferably with Apocalypse Now playing on the screen
Copland's "American Beef Council Suite" (be sure to call it that). Who doesn't like a good steak?
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (Sacrifice) while sharpening a large dagger


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

When I watch an American football game, I just see a bunch of men running around after some kind of ball, landing in a huge heep, and then slapping each other on the butt, seems pretty gay to me.

But when I watch the ballet, I'm watching a group of lovely young ladies in tights, with their sublime bodies on display.



<Sarcasm>


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

senza sordino said:


> When I watch an American football game, I just see a bunch of men running around after some kind of ball, landing in a huge heep, and then slapping each other on the butt, seems pretty gay to me.
> 
> But when I watch the ballet, I'm watching a group of lovely young ladies in tights, with their sublime bodies on display.
> 
> ...


To one as non-sporty as I am, your interpretation of American football seems perfectly sensible.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Ah I love to be finally surrounded by fellow football haters. I feel home.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Chipomarc said:


> Really? This might change your mind.
> 
> View attachment 74448


This looks like a picture of Tortelvis, the lead singer of Dread Zeppelin. Has he found a new career as a bassoonist?


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know about whiny self-destruction, but my impression is that country music is the only music that can produce a four-minute song chronicling an entire history of passionate love and loss *without ever leaving the tonic triad*. Wagner could have learned something about musical economy from Tammie Rae Rhinestone.


Hah! Reminds me of dreary Victorian hymns written by local vicars that are always in C major and that _never ever_ venture further afield than I, IV and V and don't even think about modulation. And those hymns do more than chronicle love and loss, they chronicle the whole of creation!


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Chipomarc said:


> Really? This might change your mind.
> 
> View attachment 74448





Dr Johnson said:


> This looks like a picture of Tortelvis, the lead singer of Dread Zeppelin. Has he found a new career as a bassoonist?


Without even looking into it, I'm guessing it's that Michael Daugherty piece where a bassoonist is instructed to perfrom while dressed as Elvis. Dead Elvis, it's called.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I don't concern myself with these issues at all. I guess within certain social classes, subcultures and circles it matters what kind music you're into but I'm glad I'm not part of them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> Ah I love to be finally surrounded by fellow football haters. I feel home.


When I lived in Hong Kong, everybody watched Australian Rules Football. A Brit friend referred to American footballers as "overpadded pooftas."

Of course he was at a safe distance.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

KenOC said:


> When I lived in Hong Kong, everybody watched Australian Rules Football. A Brit friend referred to American footballers as "overpadded pooftas."
> Of course he was at a safe distance.


Let me remind you Ken that _*real men*_ content themselves with only jock-straps. A 'box' is permitted in cricket only for the sake of preserving reproductive capacity.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread embarrassingly inappropriate for a forum that one would hope strives for some maturity?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

DaveM said:


> Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread embarrassingly inappropriate for a forum that one would hope strives for some maturity?


Did you actually read the OP? For something that is actually embarrassingly immature, check out my latest poll about Mozart and effeminate tea time music.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread embarrassingly inappropriate for a forum that one would hope strives for some maturity?


That was intentional, because I find those sentiments very immature, yet I see echoes of that in pop culture. But as others have pointed out, classical is more often portrayed to be music for stuffy, old, rich people, or is seen as nerdy. I'm interested in where this idea stems from


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread embarrassingly inappropriate for a forum that one would hope strives for some maturity?


You may be thinking of that other forum.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

In my youthful years, those who listened to classical music were called "long hairs" ... I was proud to be called something special and it really didn't matter to me at all. Those were the days when it didn't matter ... one could take the right or left path and nobody else cared. 

I'm indifferent to what lovers of classical music are being singled out as today. It doesn't matter what other people think of me in that respect. And I don't think anything the less of them for not liking my preferences in musical taste. 

Where I do draw the line is when a rolling boom box is on the road ... forcing everyone to listen to their choice of music whether they like it or not. They can like it ... just don't force me to hear it ... as I don't force anyone else to listen to the classical music playing in my car.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Krummhorn said:


> In my youthful years, those who listened to classical music were called "long hairs" ... I was proud to be called something special and it really didn't matter to me at all. Those were the days when it didn't matter ... one could take the right or left path and nobody else cared.
> 
> I'm indifferent to what lovers of classical music are being singled out as today. It doesn't matter what other people think of me in that respect. And I don't think anything the less of them for not liking my preferences in musical taste.
> 
> Where I do draw the line is when a rolling boom box is on the road ... forcing everyone to listen to their choice of music whether they like it or not. They can like it ... just don't force me to hear it ... as I don't force anyone else to listen to the classical music playing in my car.


Sometimes I enjoy riding with my windows down when it's a nice day. At the same time, I enjoy hearing music so I'll blare some Mozart 39 to get me pumped up. People probably think I'm _really_ gay or weird haha.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

Krummhorn said:


> [...] *Where I do draw the line is when a rolling boom box is on the road ... forcing everyone to listen to their choice of music whether they like it or not*. They can like it ... just don't force me to hear it ... as I don't force anyone else to listen to the classical music playing in my car.


I see your point, Mr K. Where _*I*_ draw the line is being subjected - _*whether I like it or not*_ - to street musicians (notably string quartets) playing (usually ineptly, but not always) that damned *Pachelbel canon* and other 'popular' classics. I am subjected to this sort of *musical pollution* for many months in the year. If it was just a rolling boom box on the road I could deal with it.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

DaveM said:


> Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread embarrassingly inappropriate for a forum that one would hope strives for some maturity?


Now that I read your post again, you were actually just talking about the _title_ of this thread. And I realized that part of your post made a good signature for me.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> That was intentional, because I find those sentiments very immature, yet I see echoes of that in pop culture. But as others have pointed out, classical is more often portrayed to be music for stuffy, old, rich people, or is seen as nerdy. I'm interested in where this idea stems from


I get the point you're trying to make. Just wondering whether the subject of the thread justifies a title using a phrase that has almost disappeared (thankfully), over the last few years, except for maybe among a few in a certain age-group.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I can honestly say that having never hidden my interest in classical music as an adult, I haven't heard people in the UK associating it with homosexuality (or effeminacy). Boring, elitist, over-intellectual, irrelevant and old-fashioned yes. 

I once worked in a psychiatric unit for adolescents. The occupational therapist ran a music group which I was invited to join. Each week someone had to bring a piece of favourite music which got played and then talked about. When it was my turn I considered briefly bringing my actual classical then-current favourite, Schubert's 'Death and the Maiden' quartet. Luckily sanity prevailed and I actually brought along a Louden Wainwright III track about how one man's wife hated his best friend who took him out drinking, which I correctly thought would get the young people talking about relationships.

After the discussion one young person turned to me with a grin and said she'd expected me to bring something 'posh' and boring like classical music. 

A lucky escape, then. I must give off 'aroma de boring elitism' without realising it.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

This stereotype seems really pervasive here in Texas, the land of boots, horses, hunting and two-stepping.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I can honestly say that having never hidden my interest in classical music as an adult, I haven't heard people in the UK associating it with homosexuality (or effeminacy) in the UK.


ditto. Clearly folk in Lancashire have as broad minds as their accents :lol:


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

I felt really gay dancing down the street this morning with Beethoven Symphony 7.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I can honestly say that having never hidden my interest in classical music as an adult, I haven't heard people in the UK associating it with homosexuality (or effeminacy) in the UK. Boring, elitist, over-intellectual, irrelevant and old-fashioned yes.
> 
> I once worked in a psychiatric unit for adolescents. The occupational therapist ran a music group which I was invited to join. Each week someone had to bring a piece of favourite music which got played and then talked about. When it was my turn I considered briefly bringing my actual classical then-current favourite, Schubert's 'Death and the Maiden' quartet. Luckily sanity prevailed and I actually brought along a Louden Wainwright III track about how one man's wife hated his best friend who took him out drinking, which I correctly thought would get the young people talking about relationships.
> 
> ...


Interesting anecdote, TV. As a son of blue collar workers I can't deny that I wasn't ribbed for my youthful taste for classical music. But that ribbing came from the more brutish elements of the social strata I moved in. My close family (all salt-of-the-earth types) saw it as something positive, something that was later soundly validated in my grammar school. I suppose I was lucky in that I always moved in musical circles (boy soprano/chorister, school orchestra, university orchestra ...) and so I never had to 'justify' the music I cared for. In fact I find it hard to imagine why anyone should have to defend such a thing. 
As to the 'homosexual' aspect, are we saying that such a profession attracts a disproportionate number of gays? That seems to me to be a difficult thing to prove, and even if it were so, who cares?


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> Interesting anecdote, TV. As a son of blue collar workers I can't deny that I wasn't ribbed for my youthful taste for classical music. But that ribbing came from the more brutish elements of the social strata I moved in. My close family (all salt-of-the-earth types) saw it as something positive, something that was later soundly validated in my grammar school. I suppose I was lucky in that I always moved in musical circles (boy soprano/chorister, school orchestra, university orchestra ...) and so I never had to 'justify' the music I cared for. In fact I find it hard to imagine why anyone should have to defend such a thing.
> As to the 'homosexual' aspect, are we saying that such a profession attracts a disproportionate number of gays? That seems to me to be a difficult thing to prove, and *even if it were so, who cares?*


Yes, quite so.

I agree with you about the importance of validation at school. My recently-Grammar School-turned-comprehensive was so strong on classical music (choirs, orchestras doing Britten and Walton) that it just wasn't an issue. This is probably one of the reasons I turned to punk rock as an adolescent: you couldn't rebel there by loving Schubert lieder!

I guess I left out of the anecdote that most of the young people in the unit were working-class Glaswegians, whilst I am a middle-class professional with a reasonably 'posh' Scots accent (yes, really). So I'd say that what was mostly at work was class difference and expectation of one class by another (in both directions, of course, I should not have been surprised to find out that one of the young people secretly harboured a love of classical music. Or even that one or more (not necessarily the putative CM lover!) was 'gay'). However, there didn't seem to be any expectation that as a suspected classical music lover I might be gay.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?




Either that or they've learned something about aerodynamics.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

*Referring to TurnaboutVox's post #78 above:*
Good Ganesh! If only I could remember the title and author of the book I read 20+ years ago about this very subject (about class distinction in music, written by Dr Susan 'Something-or-other', Manchester Uni Press - it's in the attic, in a box collecting dust) ... You know, even in so-called hermetically-sealed musical glasshouses (university music departments, conservatoires ...) there is always a 'rebel' faction. Quite right, too !!


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

It does make a pretty motif.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> It does make a pretty motif.
> 
> View attachment 74463


What are those 'B's and 'D's doing there, RW?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Freudian slip, just make them As and Es. And for that matter, make it all more jumpy and elaborate on various rhythms, that's a homework for anyone who cares.

pentatonic slip


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> Either that or they've learned something about aerodynamics.


And what could be more aerodynamic than this? Looks like an F-35! And I bet you can carry a lot of bodies in that trunk.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Freudian slip, just make them As and Es. And for that matter, make it all more jumpy and elaborate on various rhythms, that's a homework for anyone who cares.


Pentatonic slip of the tongue? Naughty boy! Thank Ganesh you don't play the oboe, RW! I hear many oboists are gay, I can't think why. _A propos_, I'm currently researching extended performance techniques for players of the pink oboe, an instrument that Ligeti (and Berio as well as others) failed to exploit.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Living in the US, I think of cars. 50-60 years ago, cars were fanciful sculptures, widely different and invariably flamboyant. The quality was crappy, but they made a statement. Or, if you like, a lot of statements.
> 
> Today cars all look like variants of the Universal Japanese Machine, yes, even outliers like the Tesla. I guess it's considered dangerous, or in bad taste, to exercise some creativity.
> 
> The point being, has American culture (and most Western culture as well) retreated into a dull and depressing conformity?





KenOC said:


> And what could be more aerodynamic than this? Looks like an F-35! And I bet you can carry a lot of bodies in that trunk.


I love those old cars, and I don't love the new cars. Whenever an old car drives by, I can't help myself, I turn my head and watch it go by. There's a nice museum in Sacramento that shows off old cars. Each car is independently owned by an individual, they just store it in the museum and charge admission. There must be over 100 cars there, from a Ford Model A to classic 1950s corvettes and 1960s mustangs. It's pretty cool there.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Nothing's wrong with effeminate. . . if you like Raider fans.

'Big' Girls and 'Big' Boys put on their Callas _Medea _make-up and lip-synch and act it out for friends at dinner parties. . . and never break character of course. _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

senza sordino said:


> I love those old cars, and I don't love the new cars. Whenever an old car drives by, I can't help myself, I turn my head and watch it go by. There's a nice museum in Sacramento that shows off old cars. Each car is independently owned by an individual, they just store it in the museum and charge admission. There must be over 100 cars there, from a Ford Model A to classic 1950s corvettes and 1960s mustangs. It's pretty cool there.


Uncanny.

Is that car a Plymouth Fury or a Fairlane [sic.]? I saw one EXACTLY like the one in the picture on a trip up to Carmel, California when I briefly went through Shell Beach to check out the surf.

Cool car.

'Christine' all the way.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Believe that's a 1958 Plymouth Fury. Good eyes! Yes, the Christine car!


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## Tedski (Jul 8, 2015)

senza sordino said:


> But when I watch the ballet, I'm watching a group of lovely young ladies in tights, with their sublime bodies on display.


Just don't look at their bare feet.


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## Chipomarc (Jul 18, 2015)

KenOC said:


> And what could be more aerodynamic than this? Looks like an F-35! And I bet you can carry a lot of bodies in that trunk.
> 
> I'll pass, it never came out in Florett Silver Metallic like the Audi S8 does


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## GhenghisKhan (Dec 25, 2014)

Basically the aristocracy stopped shooting people guilty of laughing at the former's musical tastes.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2015)

GhenghisKhan said:


> Basically the aristocracy stopped shooting stupid people guilty of laughing at the former's musical tastes and mannerisms.


Yeah, they've gone soft.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

dogen said:


> Yeah, they've gone soft.


That is what you get when you only marry your cousins


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Chipomarc said:


> KenOC said:
> 
> 
> > And what could be more aerodynamic than this? Looks like an F-35! And I bet you can carry a lot of bodies in that trunk.
> ...


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Some will say you're gay. Some will say you're weird. Some will say you're a snob. Some will say you must be European (no kidding), especially if you say "Moats-art" instead of "Moes-art." Some won't say anything for fear of appearing dumb. Those are the smart ones.


15 likes??? Don't get me wrong, Woodduck's post is pretty good (deserving 14 likes), but a tad overrated (15 is too much) don't you think? Like this post of mine if you think Woodduck's post is good, but slightly overrated.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Back when I was in junior and senior high school , and homosexuality was not even an issue (this was the late 1960s and early 70s ) , the other kids didn't think liking classical music was "gay " - just weird ! 
Nobody ever accused me of being gay for this , even though I'm totally heterosexual . 
When the subject of opera came up in discussion in English class once, and I mentioned being an opera fan, the teacher looked at me as though he had just seen a creature from another planet !
He said he had gone to a performance of Aida in Italy , once , and it didn't do anything for him . Too bad .


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)




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## Tedski (Jul 8, 2015)

. . . . . . . . 16 :d



dim7 said:


> 15 likes??? Don't get me wrong, woodduck's post is pretty good (deserving 14 likes), but a tad overrated (15 is too much) don't you think? Like this post of mine if you think woodduck's post is good, but slightly overrated.


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## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Better point is, who cares? 

If you're a masculine manly man with good social skills/ grace who listens to classical music, it's not like anybody will suddenly think you're a "******". On the other hand if you're a pansy and you watch football - well that doesn't make you any manlier. 

Does classical music enhance your image as a nerdy effeminate? If you're faraway enough from that, doubt it'll be an issue. If you, however ARE a nerdy effete geek it still doesn't matter as it fits the bill right on. 

So really, there's no issue either way


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Um. Which century you coming from here, LS? "******"? "Pansy"? "nerdy effete geek"?


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Lucifer, you couldn't just say "it's not like anybody will suddenly think your gay"? Did you have to use a derogatory slur? Just sayin


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## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> Lucifer, you couldn't just say "it's not like anybody will suddenly think your gay"? Did you have to use a derogatory slur? Just sayin


Actually I was almost certain this word was being used here in the context of what "hs boys say about classical fans" so I was matching them. But apparently I was wrong so apologies for that.

I'm not actually anti-gay in any way and I've never actually used the word ****** to describe gays. Reading back, it came out way wrong. Sorry


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

These ruffle in rich silke, though ne're so gay,
A well plum'd Peacock is more gay than they.
Poore man, what art! A Tennis ball of Errour,
A Ship of Glasse, toss'd in a Sea of terrour,
Issuing in blood and sorrow from the wombe,
Crauling in tears and mourning to the tombe,
How slippery are thy pathes, how sure thy fall,
How art thou Nothing when th'art most of all!


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> Gene Simmons (the lead singer of Kiss) provides one side of the argument:
> 
> "I think Shakespeare is a ****. Absolute ****! He may have been a genius in his time, but I just can't relate to that stuff. Thees and thous - the guy sounds like a f_____t."


Well one person in that putative dialogue sounds like a f......t. But it isn't Shakespeare!


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Of course I was shocked - shocked, I say! - at the title of this thread (channeling the police chief in Casablanca). But it's been pretty entertaining reading. 
A friend of mine was interviewing a noted festival director about his next project:
"It's about the gays in art."
"Oh, you'll have plenty of material then."
"No, no, the gaze, g.a.z.e. in art."
True story. The misconception probably would have been the more interesting project.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Adam Weber said:


> Have you read this article by Alex Ross? Covers this topic very well.
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/finally-a-non-embarrassing-classical-music-scene-in-a-blockbuster-movie


Really interesting. Thanks for posting this link.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Classical was a great escape. I got tired of being the cool, good-looking dude who got all the women.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

And there are no great composers who were gay. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn Beethoven, Vivaldi, Verdi, Mendelssohn, Schubert were all heterosexual.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> And there are no great composers who were gay. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn Beethoven, Vivaldi, Verdi, Mendelssohn, Schubert were all heterosexual.


How do you know any of them weren't bisexual?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I guess I don't. But there were no evidence of them composing music for gay people. *They composed great music for all people.* Therefore classical music is not gay.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I think my argument would be that only conscious beings that reproduce sexually and have two sexes can be gay. Classical music is not conscious, it cannot have a sexual preference, therefore classical can't be gay any more than a rock can be gay.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Off the top of my head I know Tchaikovsky, Poulenc, and Szymanowski were gay, with Tchaikovsky being the most esteemed "greatest" of the three

Not that it matters to their music, of course, just pointing it out


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I do believe that Benjamin Britten too might not have been entirely..._conventional_.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> And there are *no great composers who were gay*. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn Beethoven, Vivaldi, Verdi, Mendelssohn, Schubert were all heterosexual.


*sigh*
Copland. Tchaikovsky. Britten. Cage. Lully. Bernstein. Adès. Tippett. Maxwell Davies. And that's just a start.

(Maybe not all "great". But certainly very good. And, as Dedalus said, any of the composers you mentioned could have been bisexual. A lot of people think Schubert was.
And I'm not saying classical music is gay. It's music, it can't have a sexuality.
Sorry, but I literally did a whole speech on LGBT representation in music.)


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> *sigh*
> Copland. Tchaikovsky. Britten. Cage. Lully. Bernstein. Adès. Tippett. Maxwell Davies. And that's just a start.
> 
> (Maybe not all "great". But certainly very good. And, as Dedalus said, any of the composers you mentioned could have been bisexual. A lot of people think Schubert was.
> ...


Lully was bisexual, Tchaikovsky was not open about his sexual orientation. Schubert may have been bisexual. Britten may have even been a paedophile (other authors have speculated, I hope not).


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Lully was bisexual, Tchaikovsky was not open about his sexual orientation. Schubert may have been bisexual. Britten may have even been a paedophile (other authors have speculated, I hope not).


I assumed you were using "gay" in the sense of "not straight" rather than "homosexual", since your list of composers was made up of heterosexuals - hence the mention of Lully and Schubert. Tchaikovsky, apparently, was definitely homosexual. Britten may indeed have been a paedophile - what is your point? He was still homosexual.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I meant gay = homosexual. Reading more about the composers, I then listed what I wrote in post #116 to the best of my humble knowledge on composers' sexual orientation. *The key point was they all wrote beautiful music for all listeners, whether gay or not.*


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> I meant gay = homosexual. Reading more about the composers, I then listed what I wrote in post #116 to the best of my humble knowledge on composers' sexual orientation. *The key point was they all wrote beautiful music for all listeners, whether gay or not.*


You made that point - I just didn't see the relevance of the (untrue) claim that there were no great composers who were gay.

The two different meanings of "gay" can get very annoying, especially for people like me who are gay by one definition but not by another.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

MoonlightSonata said:


> You made that point - I just didn't see the relevance of the (untrue) claim that there were no great composers who were gay.
> 
> The two different meanings of "gay" can get very annoying, especially for people like me who are gay by one definition but not by another.


Does anyone use the other definition of gay anymore?


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> Does anyone use the other definition of gay anymore?


I've heard both used quite frequently. Which is the "other" to which you refer?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

MoonlightSonata said:


> I've heard both used quite frequently. Which is the "other" to which you refer?


The other is "happy."


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> The other is "happy."


Ah, I thought you meant of the two that I referred to. Sorry.
I haven't heard "gay" in the sense of "happy" used for a long time. I don't tend to use it much myself - "happy" has plenty of synonyms, but "homosexual" doesn't seem have many that aren't derogatory.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Ah, I thought you meant of the two that I referred to. Sorry.
> I haven't heard "gay" in the sense of "happy" used for a long time. I don't tend to use it much myself - "happy" has plenty of synonyms, but "homosexual" doesn't seem have many that aren't derogatory.


I think I lost the plot of the conversation for a bit there.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> I think I lost the plot of the conversation for a bit there.


Me too. This has become rather confusing.


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

Speaking of composers that were gay, let's not forget Barber. And what would life be like without his 1st symphony? Also, Menotti was gay. Going back to Europe, Saint-Saens & Poulenc were gay. What I find interesting is, we only know for certain those composers that were gay beginning in the late 19th century. Anything earlier and it is speculation. Schubert? Handel? Brahms? Beethoven? All of whom were single their whole life. Handel may have been asexual, who knows? There is nothing written about his love life. Brahms had a thing for Clara Schumann, or so we are told. Beethoven fell for a younger student who turned him away. And that was it for him in the love department. It could be argued that his deafness alienated him from society and any future loves. History is written by the majority and the majority is going to ensure that only their side of the story is told.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Sex is sex, and music is music; so what we are really talking about here is a sensibility. Like the Chinese symbol of yin and yang, yin being the "receptive, yielding, passive, water, air, female" principle, and yang being the "assertive, rigid, aggressive, rock, fire, male" principle.
Viewed this way, I see a whole new vista opening up. I see Beethoven as being very yang, and rhythmically assertive, and really, Mozart too. Wagner and Mahler seem very receptive and fluid.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Someone upthread mentioned being called a "longhair" for listening to classical music. For years I thought that term referred to Bach, Handel, etc. -- you know, men who wore long wigs. But my musician brother told me that it actually refers to those nineteenth-century Romantics like Pagannini and Chopin, who also had long hair! I mention this because those same high school boys would probably think those Romantics looked "gay," and yet weren't they sort of the cool rock stars of their era?

As for the OP's question: I'm from northern Virginia in the USA. That's near Washington, DC which, contrary to much popular perception, is actually an important arts city. Here there isn't generally that unsophisticated, reactionary "Classical music is so gay" attitude. When I acted in high school I did once run into that attitude regarding the theatre -- but ironically it was expressed by the _father_ of one of the boys who acted, not by the kids themselves.

I might have said that classical music is regarded here as "elitist"...but at the Washington Opera performances I've been to I've seen a pretty wide range of different kinds of people in the audience, so I don't even know how relevant the "elitist" stereotype is anymore.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Sex is sex, and music is music; so what we are really talking about here is a sensibility. Like the Chinese symbol of yin and yang, yin being the "receptive, yielding, passive, water, air, female" principle, and yang being the "assertive, rigid, aggressive, rock, fire, male" principle.
> Viewed this way, I see a whole new vista opening up. I see Beethoven as being very yang, and rhythmically assertive, and really, Mozart too. Wagner and Mahler seem very receptive and fluid.


I think you'd have to put Verdi as "yang," too. His music is very rhythmic and "masculine."


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I guess I left out of the anecdote that most of the young people in the unit were working-class Glaswegians, whilst I am a middle-class professional with a reasonably 'posh' Scots accent (yes, really).
> 
> Dearie me!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Weston said:


> I'm sure my perception of country music as a whiny celebration of self destruction for uneducated losers springs from ignorance on my part too. But on that topic I'll remain in ignorant bliss.


If I can help it, the ignorance won't be complete. Country music is currently the best popular music being produced today. It is recorded by real, highly-talented musicians, not all computers and beat tracks. And the songs are written by highly professional songwriters who have honed their craft and take it very seriously. Nashville has become the new Tin Pan Alley. Also the songs reject the negativity common in pop culture today in favor of more positive messages about family, love, and moral values.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Jerome said:


> If I can help it, the ignorance won't be complete. Country music is currently the best popular music being produced today. It is recorded by real, highly-talented musicians, not all computers and beat tracks. And the songs are written by highly professional songwriters who have honed their craft and take it very seriously. Nashville has become the new Tin Pan Alley. Also the songs reject the negativity common in pop culture today in favor of more positive messages about family, love, and moral values.


Well, we're all ignorant in our own ways. "Popular music" covers a vast array of genres; therefore it is not, by any stretch, all about negativity, computers and beat-tracks.


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