# Stephen Sondheim (1930 - 2021): does he have a place in "the canon"?



## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Broadway composer/lyricist Stephen Sondheim died today aged 91. A thread about his legacy might seem better suited to the "Non-Classical Music" forum, but I think there's a real discussion to be had about whether or not he should be counted among the major 20th century composers. Terry Teachout wrote a fabulous essay about this:

https://www.commentary.org/articles/terry-teachout/sondheims-operas/

Suffice it to say, I vote "Yes" on the title question. I consider _Sweeney Todd_ a great work of 20th century music, and I think _A Little Night Music_, _Pacific Overtures_, _Sunday in the Park with George_, and _Passion_ also possess an ambition and sophistication that deserves to be in the conversation.

The classical-music-military-industrial-complex would also seem to have voted "Yes," at least a bit: the New York Philharmonic has regularly performed Sondheim's music; before the pandemic, the LA Philharmonic was poised to stage _Sunday in the Park with George_; Houston Grand Opera, New York City Opera, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, Zurich Opera, and the Royal Opera have all mounted productions of _Sweeney Todd_; Sondheim claimed to have turned down commissions from major orchestras and opera houses (including the Vienna State Opera no less).

So, what do you think? Do you like Sondheim's music? Do you think it rises to a level that merits comparison with the 20th century greats? Or do you think it's absurd hyperbole to include Sondheim's name on any list that might include Berg, Britten, Poulenc, and Janáček? Now that he's gone, do you think he will find a lasting place in the concert hall and the opera house, or was it just a flash in the pan?

Here are some interviews I've enjoyed over the years:


 Sondheim on _Desert Island Discs_ (1980, 2001);
 Sondheim on NPR's _Piano Jazz_;
 Sondheim in conversation with Ned Rorem;
 Sondheim in conversation with Steve Reich.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I do consider Broadway to be fundamentally a descendent from early 20th century popular music, in a way that classical music isn't. He's absolutely one of the best musicians of the century, any genre, though.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2021)

The last remaining connection to Leonard Bernstein and the heyday of the Broadway musical is gone. What came after "West Side Story" wasn't up to very much, in my opinion. A superb lyricist was Sondheim; in fact, these lyrics were always far better than his musical compositions. He was always embarrassed by his 'purple' prose for "West Side Story" but history will prove that he was wrong about this. "Today the world is just an address, a place for me to live in - no better than alright". He was circa in his early 20s when he composed that magnificent sentence!!

When he started to employ lots of syllabic lyrics and hurried words to shorter musical phrases his music became a bore to me. I felt that he adopted a kind of avant garde approach to musical theatre which mostly had critical appeal. For me his best song was "Send in the Clowns" - both music and lyrics.

A life well lived by Stephen Sondheim; he was virtually the adopted son of Oscar Hammerstein II.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

As much as I admire his work, he was not a classical composer any more than Richard Rodgers or Jerome Kern were. His music will live on for a long time in pops concerts using arrangements by others. Send in the Clowns is a great song and long ago entered into the Great American Songbook.

Sweeney Todd is an oddity: one of those Broadway musicals that somehow has been taken up by opera companies. Maybe because of the macabre and bloody subject matter it seems "operatic" rather than a nice, pleasant musical. 

His lyrics for West Side Story have made him immortal.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> Broadway composer/lyricist Stephen Sondheim died today aged 91. A thread about his legacy might seem better suited to the "Non-Classical Music" forum, but I think there's a real discussion to be had about whether or not he should be counted among the major 20th century composers. Terry Teachout wrote a fabulous essay about this:
> 
> https://www.commentary.org/articles/terry-teachout/sondheims-operas/
> 
> ...


Stephen Sondheim's musicals achieved the artistic level of opera, IMO, and often surpassed what has been created for the contemporary operatic stage.

This is a very sad day, but one I had been anticipating for months. His skill with lyrics and the music he wrote for his shows were of the highest quality ever witnessed for Broadway and beyond. I am sure his work will live on and continue to be the benchmark for all future composers and lyricists working in musical theatre.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I have to admit I have never been an admirer of Sondheim. He just did not fit into The Great American Songbook. His music/songs were always intractability locked into the plot. Nothing wrong with that. If anything,that may be the ideal of “musical theater.” But in the last couple of hours I have seen some videos where his music is performed on its own. And it is pretty good. “Being Alive” is something special.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

FrankinUsa said:


> I have to admit I have never been an admirer of Sondheim. He just did not fit into The Great American Songbook. His music/songs were always intractability locked into the plot. Nothing wrong with that. If anything,that may be the ideal of "musical theater." But in the last couple of hours I have seen some videos where his music is performed on its own. And it is pretty good. "Being Alive" is something special.


And yet countless performers sing his songs on cabaret stages. A number have recorded entire albums of his work.

I do not consider Sondheim to be a classical composer. But I do consider him to be a great composer.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

FrankinUsa said:


> I have to admit I have never been an admirer of Sondheim. He just did not fit into The Great American Songbook. His music/songs were always intractability locked into the plot. Nothing wrong with that. If anything,that may be the ideal of "musical theater." But in the last couple of hours I have seen some videos where his music is performed on its own. And it is pretty good. "Being Alive" is something special.


I would recommend this recording if you wish to hear the songs which have been successfully extracted from the shows (this is an incomplete collection since it only includes ballads).

*Send in the Clowns: The Ballads of Stephen Sondheim*










However, Sondheim's theatrical raison d'être and artistic modus operandi was to construct his shows so that the songs were an outgrowth and a seamless part of the scenic action and plot development.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

jegreenwood said:


> And yet countless performers sing his songs on cabaret stages. A number have recorded entire albums of his work.
> 
> I do not consider Sondheim to be a classical composer. But I do consider him to be a great composer.


Bravo jegreenwood, well said.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I know very little of his work but I have seen "Into the woods" on stage which was a VERY strange piece. Not uninteresting but not easily recommendable either.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Stephen Sondheim's musicals achieved the artistic level of opera, IMO, and often surpassed what has been created for the contemporary operatic stage.





jegreenwood said:


> I do not consider Sondheim to be a classical composer. But I do consider him to be a great composer.


I don't necessarily consider him a capital-C Classical composer, but he's not orthogonal to that tradition either; his teacher was Milton Babbitt, and he counted Ravel, Stravinsky, Britten, Rachmaninoff, and de Falla among his main influences. And I think the score of _Sweeney Todd_ hangs together as a properly through-composed work.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I would recommend this recording if you wish to hear the songs which have been successfully extracted from the shows (this is an incomplete collection since it only includes ballads).
> 
> *Send in the Clowns: The Ballads of Stephen Sondheim*


This is my favorite Sondheim "recital album." Everything is stripped down to voice and piano, which is arguably the music's native form since Sondheim didn't orchestrate.









The version of "Could I Leave You?" might be my favorite Sondheim performance, period.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> This is my favorite Sondheim "recital album." Everything is stripped down to voice in piano, which is arguably the music's native form since Sondheim didn't orchestrate.
> 
> View attachment 161587
> 
> ...


I agree that revue is one of the best - a fairly early tribute when everyone was in their prime.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Sondheim remains a maestro of our modern American theatre. He virtually has no peers in terms of writing both music and lyrics.

I value Sondheim's lyrics (puzzle-sharp, clever, sophisticated, and highly poetic) more than his tunes, many of which are stellar and among the best from musicals. I have long cherished _West Side Story_, _Forum_, _Company_, and _Anyone Can Whistle_, the title song from which I often find myself humming, whistling, or singing just "out of the blue".

I find it useless to debate Sondheim's merit as a "classical" composer. I prefer the term "serious music" to "classical music" and I find Sondheim was serious about his music. I've had the good fortune to work on a few Sondheim works during my theatre career, including playing percussion in the orchestra for a run of _Company_, a musical with some of the catchiest lyrics and tunes in the theatre. I'm simply glad we have the man's work available to enjoy for as long as humanly possible. If "classical" composers are measured by their lastingness, then perhaps Sondheim_ is_ just such a composer. His work will last.

And his name will be spoken of as amongst "the best".


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> I prefer the term "serious music" to "classical music" and I find Sondheim was serious about his music.


Well said. He was very serious about his writing.

I have his two volume set on his shows and lyrics and what comes across in spades is his high standard for acceptable work and his discipline. He outlined certain "rules" and forced himself to adhere to them even if it cost him weeks of work on a single lyric.

These two books are absolutely mandatory for anyone who is interested in Sondheim and what guided his creative process.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

John Zito said:


> This is my favorite Sondheim "recital album." Everything is stripped down to voice and piano, which is arguably the music's native form since Sondheim didn't orchestrate.
> 
> View attachment 161587
> 
> ...


I saw that show when it came to NYC (with the London cast IIRC). I also have the album. The number of Sondheim overviews (including extended run theater productions, tributes, cabaret acts, record albums etc.) must be well into the 100s.

By the way, while _Side By Side_ was running, I had my only encounter with Sondheim. We were both eating at Windows on the World (top floor of the former World Trade Center). I went over to his table - he was there with the cast. I was too shy to ask for his autograph, but I did tell him how much I liked his work.

About the orchestral arrangements. Like Sondheim, I really enjoy Jonathan Tunick's work. He did almost all of the Sondheim shows from _Company_ on.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> These two books are absolutely mandatory for anyone who is interested in Sondheim and what guided his creative process.


Those books really are gems. Worth the price just for the extended commentaries (both complimentary and not) on the "Golden Age" lyricists. When asked if he would ever write a book about his music, Sondheim would say that someone had already written it, in reference to this:









I only ever skimmed it before giving a copy to someone as a gift, and being a non-musician there was only so much I could take away anyhow, but it was great nevertheless. You get a real sense of what an omnivorous listener he was; he was into Kapustin, Nystroem, all sorts.



jegreenwood said:


> By the way, while _Side By Side_ was running, I had my only encounter with Sondheim. We were both eating at Windows on the World (top floor of the former World Trade Center). I went over to his table - he was there with the cast. I was too shy to ask for his autograph, but I did tell him how much I liked his work.


Wow.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

fbjim said:


> I do consider Broadway to be fundamentally a descendent from early 20th century popular music, in a way that classical music isn't. He's absolutely one of the best musicians of the century, any genre, though.


Broadway is an amalgam of both popular music and operetta (see: *Gilbert & Sullivan*).

Some musicals are even based heavily on classical music, such as Kismet, based on music of *Borodin*.

As far as *Sondheim* is concerned, his musical voice is less "Pop" and considerably more "Art music". Obviously, he worked with Oscar Hammerstein, Richard Rodgers, Leonard Bernstein, and his musical palette is rich harmonically, polyphonically, and often sounds more like post-post-modernism than Broadway Pop.

One could, of course, point to his 1973 musical *A Little Night Music *as an example of blending his Classical background with Theatre: It was described by critics as reminiscent of Mahler, Strauss, Ravel, Liszt, and Rachmaninoff. And it delivered his first commercial "hit" song, *Send In The Clowns*.

Of course, working within the confines of theatre almost exclusively, one COULD try pigeonholing him into some stereotypical musical box, but the sides and top wouldn't hold.

He was also a damned good lyricist.

As someone that has worked as a Musical Director for well over 40 years, I've MDd my share of Sondheim musicals (some more than once). Even directed one. Sometimes I'd simply be in the pit, or sometimes conducting (usually from the keyboard). *When you MD one of his shows you become quite familiar with the brilliance of both the music and lyrics.* Many songs from shows of his I DIDN'T do, I've accompanied in musical revues, cabarets, and other assorted concerts. I've seen almost every one of his "key" musicals.

Let's see . . .

West Side Story - MD (perhaps 3X, I think), conductor, pit musician
Assassins - Director and Musical Director
Sweeney Todd - MD
Follies - Conductor
Gypsy - Conductor
Into the Woods - Music Director


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> Those books really are gems. Worth the price just for the extended commentaries (both complimentary and not) on the "Golden Age" lyricists. When asked if he would ever write a book about his music, Sondheim would say that someone had already written it, in reference to this:
> 
> View attachment 161623


Yep, I've got that one, the 2nd edition:










The author has access to Sondheim's sketches and scores, and will ask him about his shorthand notation. It is a fascinating account of Sondheim's process and thinking.

And the basic bio by Meryle Secrest










My first book on Sondheim was this one, which is excellent:

*Art Isn't Easy: The Theater Of Stephen Sondheim*


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> And the basic bio by Meryle Secrest


Do you recommend the Secrest book, or do you think it's liable to be superseded by whatever's bound to come out in the next decade?

Also, I just read this, and it's a pretty good "one-stop-shop" for all of Sondheim's own views on his relationship to the classical tradition:

https://www.freep.com/story/enterta...usicals-2009-free-press-interview/8770543002/


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> Do you recommend the Secrest book, or do you think it's liable to be superseded by whatever's bound to come out in the next decade?
> 
> Also, I just read this, and it's a pretty good "one-stop-shop" for all of Sondheim's own views on his relationship to the classical tradition:
> 
> https://www.freep.com/story/enterta...usicals-2009-free-press-interview/8770543002/


It's a good well researched and written book, but I saw there is a new book due to be published in January 2022.

*Sondheim in Our Time and His*
by W. Anthony Sheppard










I'll probably buy it since I've bought about every book on Sondheim so far.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Just to get a more full palet regarding represented views, there's hardly any genre I'd rather like to avoid listening to, than musicals, perhaps except brass band marches ...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

joen_cph said:


> Just to get a more complete picture regarding represented views, there's hardly any genre I'd rather like to avoid listening to, than musicals, perhaps except brass band marches ...


I"d say that musical theatre's golden age was from the 1930s to the 1970s, and during that period there were dozens of truly great works written and produced. Sondheim represents the last exponent of the kind of quality possible, and he grew up during a period when the economics of producing a new show were manageable in a way that is impossible today and has been for at least two decades. But during the '70s and '80s his shows were head and shoulders above anything else that appeared (I may be forgetting a few shows without looking it up).

Young composers and lyricists do not have any opportunities on Broadway and must seek workshops, regional theaters, and in NYC Off-Off Broadway venues for their work.

So in general, depending on when you stuck your toe in, musical theatre could look like a wasteland of glitzy shows built around a group of famous Pop/Rock and now Hip-Hop material, or a movie, or some kind of amusement park styled extravaganza.

But I have always been a huge fan of telling a story with song, and find the American musical certainly superior to 20th century opera, and in many ways more enjoyable even than the great 19th century operatic works. But that is just my own personal taste reflecting more of a concern for the writing of book and music, and the staging, rather a concern for great singing.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Lest we forget, musical theater is the consummate collaborative process. We keep talking about "Sondheim shows" but here's a quote where he demonstrated his consistent practice throughout his career to acknowledge his partners:

"Stephen Sondheim has been generously insistent in crediting his collaborators, bristling, for example, in letters to the New York Times when an article refers to a "Sondheim musical" without mentioning the librettist. When he received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Tony Awards in 2008, his acceptance speech began, Thank you all, but this award has to be shared with Julius Epstein, Arthur Laurents, Burt Shevelove, Larry Gelbart, George Furth, Jim Goldman, John Weidman, Hugh Wheeler and James Lapine. These are the men who created the characters that sang the songs, the situations that gave rise to the songs and the criticism that improved the songs. They were my collaborators. They are called playwrights. They invent. They make whole cloth out of nothing. They make a hat where there never was a hat. And they don't just write musicals. I would also share this Award with Hal Prince, but he has one already."

- _Stephen Sondheim and the Reinvention of the American Musical_ by Robert L. McLaughlin

To that point, I recently purchased James Lapine's book about the making of the show _Sunday in the Park with George_ and look forward to reading it.

_*Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim and I Created "Sunday in the Park with George"*_ 
by James Lapine


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

fbjim said:


> I do consider Broadway to be fundamentally a descendent from early 20th century popular music, in a way that classical music isn't. He's absolutely one of the best musicians of the century, any genre, though.


I'd describe the musical as the initial blossoming of American popular music. I'm not sure of the dates for George M. Cohan, but Irving Berlin's first musical was in 1914, and in 1915 Jerome Kern (working with P.G. Wodehouse among others) wrote the first of his Princess musicals.



SanAntone said:


> I"d say that musical theatre's golden age was from the 1930s to the 1970s, and during that period there were dozens of truly great works written and produced. Sondheim represents the last exponent of the kind of quality possible, and he grew up during a period when the economics of producing a new show were manageable in a way that is impossible today and has been for at least two decades. But during the '70s and '80s his shows were head and shoulders above anything else that appeared (I may be forgetting a few shows without looking it up).
> 
> *Young composers and lyricists do not have any opportunities on Broadway and must seek workshops, regional theaters, and in NYC Off-Off Broadway venues for their work.
> *
> ...


Interestingly, over the past several weeks, I've seen two musicals with music by Jeanine Tesori, _Caroline or Change_ and _Kimberly Akimbo_. I've also seen _Fun Home_ for which she won a Tony. She can write in a variety of styles - indeed the three scores are quite different. She has written several operas and has a commission from the Met.

It goes without saying, sh is a Sondheim fan.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Interestingly, over the past several weeks, I've seen two musicals with music by Jeanine Tesori, _Caroline or Change_ and _Kimberly Akimbo_. I've also seen _Fun Home_ for which she won a Tony. She can write in a variety of styles - indeed the three scores are quite different. She has written several operas and has a commission from the Met.
> 
> It goes without saying, sh is a Sondheim fan.


Jeanine Tesori is a good example of what I described. Her early work was mostly on revivals or movie adaptations, and then all of her original shows began Off Broadway or in workshop. And she is now around 60, so not old but not the kind of young composer I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier post.

Teams in their 20s and 30s are faced with a very different landscape than did Sondheim at that age.

I will look for her operas, especially the one for The Met. I recently saw Nico Muhly's _Marnie_ and John Adams' _Doctor Atomic_ (both at The Met), and while both operas were well done and enjoyable (however flawed), I think opera composers today, and for some very long time, have a tough time of finding an engaging style both for the genre and times we live in.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Jeanine Tesori is a good example of what I described. Her early work was mostly on revivals or movie adaptations, and then all of her original shows began Off Broadway or in workshop. And she is now around 60, so not old but not the kind of young composer I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier post.
> 
> Teams in their 20s and 30s are faced with a very different landscape than did Sondheim at that age.
> 
> I will look for her operas, especially the one for The Met. I recently saw Nico Muhly's _Marnie_ and John Adams' _Doctor Atomic_ (both at The Met), and while both operas were well done and enjoyable (however flawed), I think opera composers today, and for some very long time, have a tough time of finding an engaging style both for the genre and times we live in.


I agree for the most part. The only thing I would note is that it is the very rare musical these days that opens on Broadway without any prior production, either at a regional theater or off-Broadway. _Sunday in the Park with George_ and _Assassins_ both started off-Broadway. Sondheim's last show, _Road Show_ had several regional and one off-Broadway incarnation. It never even reached Broadway.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> I agree for the most part. The only thing I would note is that it is the very rare musical these days that opens on Broadway without any prior production, either at a regional theater or off-Broadway. _Sunday in the Park with George_ and _Assassins_ both started off-Broadway. Sondheim's last show, _Road Show_ had several regional and one off-Broadway incarnation. It never even reached Broadway.


Well, that was my original point.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Remembering Stephen Sondheim* | NYT News


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Stephen Sondheim interviewed by James Lipton at The Actor's Studio
*


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*A COMPLETE ROUNDUP OF EVERY SONDHEIM MUSICAL* (JULY 7, 2020)

*The Stephen Sondheim Society*

*Stephen Sondheim, The Art of the Musical* (Interview with James Lipton transcribed)

*Stephen Sondheim* (Wikipedia)


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> *Stephen Sondheim interviewed by James Lipton at The Actor's Studio
> *


Sadly that video doesn't include the beginning of the episode where Lipton gives his usual introduction, and then Sondheim walks out while Paul Ford plays "Beautiful Girls."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> Sadly that video doesn't include the beginning of the episode where Lipton gives his usual introduction, and then Sondheim walks out while Paul Ford plays "Beautiful Girls."


You're right it is missing Lipkin's intro, but Im not sure what you mean by "Sondheim walks out while Paul Ford plays 'Beautiful Girls.'" There is a performance of "Pretty Women", but as far as I can tell Sondheim does not walk out. The rest of the interview and Q&A is complete.

BTW I've requested that this thread be moved to the Composer Guestbook. Would that bother you?


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> You're right it is missing Lipkin's intro, but Im not sure what you mean by "Sondheim walks out while Paul Ford plays 'Beautiful Girls.'" There is a performance of "Beautiful Women", but as far as I can tell Sondheim does not walk out. The rest of the interview and Q&A is complete.


I once saw it broadcast on television years ago. Lipton introduces Sondheim, who then walks on stage to take his seat, and as a joke the pianist plays the opening riff of "Beautiful Girls" from _Follies_, which in the show is the music that accompanies the old show girls making their entrances.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> BTW I've requested that this thread be moved to the Composer Guestbook. Would that bother you?


Nope. But they should change the thread title to just his name, then.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> I once saw it broadcast on television years ago. Lipton introduces Sondheim, who then walks on stage to take his seat, and as a joke the pianist plays the opening riff of "Beautiful Girls" from _Follies_, which in the show is the music that accompanies the old show girls making their entrances.


Oh, I had forgotten about that. I also saw it back when The Actor's Studio was running, but it was more than twenty years ago..


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Speaking of Follies, that show has had a somewhat bumpy journey. These are the productions which resulted in a cast recording.

*1971 Original Broadway* - even though it ran for over 500 performances it was a failure business-wise, and fo cost-cutting measures the ccast album was heavily edited, down from what would have been 2 LPs to one.

*Concert version at Avery Fisher Hall*, Lincoln Center, was performed on September 6 and 7, 1985. This has a more complete score, and was issued as 2 LPs. This is has been my go-to recording of the show.

*2011 Kennedy Center and Broadway*. While the show at the Kennedy Center received only tepid reviews, after moving to Broadway the reviews improved considerably, although it still did not recoup the investment money. A two-disc cast album of this production was recorded by PS Classics and was released on November 29, 2011.

The *2017 London revival cast* was recorded after the production closed in January 2018, and was released in early 2019.

There have been two other recordings: The original *London production* (1987), and the *Paper Mill Playhouse* (1998) [The 1998 Paper Mill Playhouse production (Millburn, New Jersey) was directed by Robert Johanson with choreography by Jerry Mitchell and starred Donna McKechnie (Sally), Dee Hoty (Phyllis), Laurence Guittard (Ben), Tony Roberts (Buddy), Kaye Ballard (Hattie ), Eddie Bracken (Weismann), and Ann Miller (Carlotta).]


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Pacific Overtures* (1976) - "Someone in a Tree"

One of Sondheim's better shows, IMO, and it includes a song which he is quoted as saying is the best thing he ever wrote, "Someone in a Tree."

The original Broadway cast album is a good record of that production but it only includes eleven numbers.










The other cast recording is from the 2004 Broadway revival with new (reduced) orchestrations by Jonathan Tunick was released by PS Classics, with additional material not included on the original cast album.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Yes. He belongs in the “canon.” As to
which canon…….it’s MUSIC.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

FrankinUsa said:


> Yes. He belongs in the "canon." As to
> which canon…….it's MUSIC.


You're right of course. What I meant by putting "the canon" in scare quotes is "do Sondheim's works belong in the regular repertoire of orchestras and opera houses?" And not just as part of pops concerts, but considered as serious works of 20th century music on par with Britten, Gershwin, Poulenc, whomever.

As a matter of mere fact, his stuff _has_ been taken up in the opera house and concert hall. The New York Philharmonic has presented semi-staged productions of several of the shows, and _Sweeney Todd_ has been staged in top opera houses. So I'm wondering things like: have those efforts been successful? does the music work in that environment? is it just a gimmick on the part of performing arts organization, or will Sondheim find a permanent-ish place in the repertoire of classical music organizations?

My ambivalence about this stems from the fact that I do think Sondheim's best stuff deserves to be taken seriously as 20th century opera/music drama, but I'm not sure that opera singers make a convincing case for it. For instance, Bryn Terfel has been doing yeoman's work evangelizing for _Sweeney Todd_'s place in the opera house, but to be honest I've never loved his performances. But ages ago I heard bootleg recordings on YouTube (long since deleted) of Thomas Allen and Felicity Palmer in _Sweeney_ at Covent Garden, and I kind of liked them. So I'm not sure...


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

John Zito said:


> ...ages ago I heard bootleg recordings on YouTube (long since deleted) of Thomas Allen and Felicity Palmer in Sweeney at Covent Garden...


Actually, does anyone know if those recordings are floating around someplace? Someone has them.


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

John Zito said:


> My ambivalence about this stems from the fact that I do think Sondheim's best stuff deserves to be taken seriously as 20th century opera/music drama, but I'm not sure that opera singers make a convincing case for it. For instance, Bryn Terfel has been doing yeoman's work evangelizing for _Sweeney Todd_'s place in the opera house, but to be honest I've never loved his performances. But ages ago I heard bootleg recordings on YouTube (long since deleted) of Thomas Allen and Felicity Palmer in _Sweeney_ at Covent Garden, and I kind of liked them. So I'm not sure...


I don't think that classical music should be defined by whether traditional Opera singers can perform it convincingly. 
I mean, the range of skills that performers possess expands as time progresses.

Nowadays we have instruments that were not available to early classical composers, a modern piano is very different from the ones Mozart played, even the Saxophone is a relatively late invention, and I'm not even getting into electric guitars and synthesizers.

And yet we accept these instruments in "classical music". Messiaen uses an early electronic keyboard called "ondes martenot", Stockhausen uses electric guitars, and Xenakis has electronic pieces that cannot at all be performed by traditional classical musicians.

If we can accept such pieces in the Classical Canon, then I don't see why we shouldn't accept Sondheim. 
The fact that Opera singers cannot perform his work convincingly only shows that there are possibly deficiencies in the education of opera singers (maybe it's to narrow/old-fashioned?), not that Sondheim isn't deserving of the Classical status.

Personally I can easily accept him as classical. I think his music has much more in common with mozart than with Justin Bieber or Nicki Minaj.


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