# I really hate jazz



## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

For a long time, I've regretted my lack of jazz knowledge. But here's the problem: jazz doesn't do anything for me. I can somehow relate with almost any other popular music genre. I really love some jazz versions of Gershwin songs, but that's it. Jazz carries for me the technical finesse of classical music, minus the wow-factor. It doesn't take much more than Schumann or Mahler to move me. At other times, I find that Carter/Babbitt/Boulez can satisfy all my extasies in terms of adrenaline. (Sorry, Cecil Taylor.) But I really believe jazz has a lot to give me, especially in playing some instruments. (I play guitar and some piano.)

Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Jazz has so many subgenres. Some of them could cover your acoustic needs. If not, why don't you let it go? It's not obligatory that someone should like all the music genres!
We can make suggestions but these just reflect our preferences. We don't know what your ears want!

Anyway, some subgenres and some names from me.

Bebop, hard-bop, post-bop, free jazz.

Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis (not his electric period), John Coltrane, Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau, Dexter Gordon, Bobo Stenson, Irene Schweizer, Paul Bley, Sonny Rollins, Uri Caine.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have never taken to jazz. Some of it is very good, but I just have other music that occupies me ahead of jazz. One I liked was Tom Scott and the LA Express back in the 70/80s. Actually had half a dozen LPs back then.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Gargamel said:


> I really love some jazz versions of Gershwin songs, but that's it.


Try Herbie Hancock's album, Gershwin's World. It's a very diverse collection of imaginative performances and arrangements. You may not like it all but there should be something there to catch your ear. Maybe the haunting piece sung by Kathleen Battle because it's sort of jazz but something else?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

...or maybe something with a bit of funk and rock?






...or something more sophisticated and complex?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

* I really hate jazz*



Gargamel said:


> For a long time, I've regretted my lack of jazz knowledge. But here's the problem: jazz doesn't do anything for me. ...
> 
> Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.


Ok. One needn't like all genres of music. I'm no fan of "rap" music, so I can sort of understand someone's disliking of jazz. Sort of. I remain an avid jazz fan, and much of my disc collection is jazz, second only in bulk to classical.

Classical, of course, extends way back centuries, so there's a lot of music there to cover. Consider that jazz begins only in the 20th century and the hey-day of bebop, which is where my interest in jazz generally begins, flourishes beginning in the 1940s. This era gave us the second great wave of jazz musicians (if the pre-bebop era gave us the first wave): Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis ...), so many of which today are legendary. Yet, even with such a short history, jazz has produced a great amount of music in a variety of styles. There's likely something there for everybody, if one explores a bit. I most prefer jazz of the mid-1950s through the 1970s. And the style often called "free jazz" interests me greatly.

For a guitar player there is much to choose from for quality. Joe Pass alone can keep my ears and mind occupied; he remains one of the best of the jazz guitarists. I'm also fond of Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall, Earl Klugh, Charlie Byrd, Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel. Lately, if I were to recommend one jazz guitar album, I have been suggesting folks, especially those interested in guitar, check out Gene Bertoncini on his album titled _Jobim - Someone To Light Up My Life_.









If that album doesn't touch your heart and soul, you probably don't like jazz. But I think of the style rather as "good music" than specifically jazz. Bertoncini's got strong classical chops which transfer well to jazz.

If I were to recommend a single jazz album to folks who want to hear what jazz is, I would select what is possibly my favorite and most listened to disc in my collection of some 10,000 or so records and CDs.









I will never claim that this is the "greatest" jazz album of all time. I'm not convinced of that. It's simply my favorite record, and has been now for some years, likely since I first heard it. I'm not even a big David Benoit fan, as things go (based on the other albums of his I have heard). But this album, _Letter to Evan_, hasn't a single weak track. Each piece is a gem. And for as good as the piano of Benoit is, the guitarists, Peter Sprague and Larry Carlton, are superb.

If you don't like this album, you likely don't like jazz. I'll go a step further: you likely don't like music.

One of my favorite jazz pieces has to be included in any jazz music recommendation I give. That piece is titled "Canyon Lady" and is written by and performed by Joe Henderson on his album titled _Canyon Lady_.









Though the other pieces on the album are superb examples of post-bop jazz in Henderson's competent and inimitable style, "Canyon Lady" strikes a chord with me that makes the piece inescapable in my long-term memory. I recall the first time I heard the work, on a radio broadcast, and I've heard it hundreds of times since, having purchased the vinyl disc (and later the CD) after hearing it on that radio transmission. It's an absolutely mesmerizing work. Like the above Benoit album, I keep a copy handy next to my stereo system. The disc is never actually shelved I play it so often. Unlike the Benoit album however, I once told my wife that I don't think I could die while "Canyon Lady" was playing, the music has such a hold on me, and I suggested that if there was ever a need in such an emergency, she could attempt to sustain me by putting that song on my stereo system, looping the track on repeat mode. I don't know if this would work to keep me breathing and my heart pumping, but I fantasize that it would, the piece is such a splendor.

If you can't like "Canyon Lady", you likely can't like jazz.

The sub-genre of Latin jazz remains a great favorite of mine, and many of the discs in my jazz collection feature Latin rhythms and compositions by Latin masters. One of my favorite Latin flavored albums is headlined by harmonica virtuoso Toots Thielemans, Belgian born but Latin at heart. The disc is titled _The Brasil Project_, and it's a gem.









I originally had this album on a cassette and played it often in the old Jeep. For as good as each selection is, it's the finale of the album, Thielemans's composition "Bluesette", a 9+ minute arrangement featuring the entire ensemble of players who appear as soloists individually on the other tracks taking on the harmonica genius's masterpiece, that captures the accolades of full praise. A splendid culmination to a splendid Latin jazz disc.

If you don't like this arrangement of "Bluesette" you probably won't like jazz, let alone Latin jazz.

So, those are a few suggestions to assist your entry into the fascinating world of jazz music. There remains so much more, and my recommendations will likely change daily, if not hourly. In any case, jazz is worth exploring; there is a lot of quality there, and some of the best musicianship in the world.

Finally, I must add that I have long collected two specific jazz albums, both classics. I have multiple copies of these discs, in various formats and pressings, mono and stereo, on tape, vinyl, silver disc, SACD. One is _Getz / Gilberto_, the Stan Getz classic that features "The Girl From Ipanema" as first sung by Joao and Astrud Gilberto. The other is Miles Davis's _Kind of Blue_. Though it is a purely subjective and open to debate concern, I side with those who consider _Kind of Blue_ the greatest jazz album of all time. For my money it is, and I wouldn't want to be without its unique sound presentation in my personal sound world. I just recently ordered an upcoming reissue of the album on a high-quality, 200 gram vinyl limited edition release. I already own several fine sounding copies of the disc but have hopes that this newest release will top them all for sound quality.









These two discs are well worth exploring, along with the others. If you can't find something to like on _Getz/Gilberto_ or _Kind of Blue_, you probably won't find anything to like in jazz. At which point I feel deeply sorry for you.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Skakner said:


> Jazz has so many subgenres. Some of them could cover your acoustic needs. If not, why don't you let it go? It's not obligatory that someone should like all the music genres!
> We can make suggestions but these just reflect our preferences. We don't know what your ears want!
> 
> Anyway, some subgenres and some names from me.
> ...


Right you are! So many subgenres of jazz.

I like Dixieland and Big Band the most.

Artie Shaw, Duke Ellington. Louis Prima. There's some Latin subsubgenres and some 'hot' and melty female jazz vocalists. Herb Alpert. Jean-Luc Ponty. I dig very early Bing Crosby, back when he was doing that caucasian guy scatting. Love the Andrews Sisters.

A fan of Jazz Rock fusion. Sting did some. Oh, Steely Dan.


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## WNvXXT (Nov 22, 2020)

Gargamel said:


> Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.


Hang around the hole. I get ideas that lead to purchases all the time from there.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> If you can't find something to like on _Getz/Gilberto_ or _Kind of Blue_, you probably won't find anything to like in jazz. *At which point I feel deeply sorry for you*.


I don't think you should feel sorry for him.
You (we) should be sorry for him if he was missing something he likes a lot.
Personally, I don't like death metal but I am sure there would be death metal fans that they could feel sorry for me because I can't "see" the greatness of their beloved music.
If Gargamel can't find something interesting in jazz, he will find it in some other genre.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Gargamel said:


> jazz doesn't do anything for me.


I'm no expert, but usually when someone tells me: "I hate [insert genre]" I ask: "what type of [insert genre]?". As someone has already pointed out, genres have subgenres. Take rock as example, there's blues rock, hard rock, pop rock, psychedelic rock, alternative rock, punk, noise-rock etc. etc. So many different subgenres! Even in classic music we have fugues, sonatas, quartets, symphonies, opera etc. not to mention the different styles and eras. With jazz is the same. The first question you should ask yourself is: Why don't I like jazz? You asked "no drowsy relaxing stuff", so I guess that's your problem with jazz. My guess is that you're problably listening to the wrong type of jazz. Since you like classical, you could try listening to pieces which blend jazz and classical:

- 




For jazz only, I think bebop might be for you, it's characterized by fast tempo:

- 



- 




You also mentioned you played guitar. Have you tried jazz-rock?

- 




Even some free jazz, it's pretty wild (it's improvisational) but who knows you might like it.

- 




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jazz_genres

My first real introduction to jazz was A Love Supreme by John Coltrane, I doubt you'll like it, but this is my favorite part: 
- 




Jazz has a very different expression of feeling from classical. Sometimes, you just need that something that makes you "click". Maybe looking at the history and biographies might help.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Gargamel. Jazz is much like variations on a theme in classical music but is or should be improvised, it is also played with a strong rhythmic beat 90 % of the time. There are so many different kinds of jazz as there is in classical so I suggest that you go to YT and search for: Django Reinhardt, Dave Brubeck, Stan Kenton, Earl Hines, George Shearing, Bunk Johnson as a start.
You may find something that grab you if not what is it that you hate?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*Rhapsody in Blue* is Classical Jazz Fusion genre-wise. And certainly not sleepy.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

If this doesn't do anything for you, I'm not sure anything will.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

pianozach said:


> *Rhapsody in Blue* is Classical Jazz Fusion genre-wise. And certainly not sleepy.


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. Certainly classical but not jazz by any stretch. If the OP is looking for jazz this would not be the place to look.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Torkelburger said:


> If this doesn't do anything for you, I'm not sure anything will.


Earlier period, I know, but Armstrong's Hot Five and Seven recordings are "classical" jazz. Duke Ellington's Blanton-Webster band, also great stuff. Miles's first quintet. Basie Decca sides with Lester. Monk's quartets with Coltrane AND Charlie Rouse. Mingus's '60s sessions. Ornette's Atlantic quartet recordings.

This is the jazz I listen to again and again.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

^^^^Amen to that! Love Young. And Rouse is my favorite sax player of all time. No one ever mentions him in their list of "greats". Ever. Fans nor critics. He's always been my favorite. Glad to know I'm not alone. He was nothing groundbreaking, I know; but he knew his role. He was just so solid and complemented Monk so well. A better fit for Monk, IMO.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Gargamel said:


> For a long time, I've regretted my lack of jazz knowledge. But here's the problem: jazz doesn't do anything for me. I can somehow relate with almost any other popular music genre. I really love some jazz versions of Gershwin songs, but that's it. Jazz carries for me the technical finesse of classical music, minus the wow-factor. It doesn't take much more than Schumann or Mahler to move me. At other times, I find that Carter/Babbitt/Boulez can satisfy all my extasies in terms of adrenaline. (Sorry, Cecil Taylor.) But I really believe jazz has a lot to give me, especially in playing some instruments. (I play guitar and some piano.)
> 
> Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.


If you like Carter, Babbitt, and Boulez, you might want to explore Anthony Braxton, Wadada Leo Smith, Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Miles Davis (electric period). There's much to explore.

Here's a 2020 recording that has become one of my favorites recently (click on link):

*Paal Nilssen-Love (Large Unit Fendika) - [2020] EthioBraz*


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Torkelburger said:


> ^^^^Amen to that! Love Young. And Rouse is my favorite sax player of all time. No one ever mentions him in their list of "greats". Ever. Fans nor critics. He's always been my favorite. Glad to know I'm not alone. He was nothing groundbreaking, I know; but he knew his role. He was just so solid and complemented Monk so well. A better fit for Monk, IMO.


Yeah, it's always bothered me that Charlie Rouse is often overlooked, but he was with Monk the longest. Johnny Griffin at the Five Spot was pretty good too. Really all the sax player with Monk sounded good.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I feel the same way about a lot of jazz. I'm grateful that I got classical training, then turned on to experimental music, synthesizer artists, and art rock, instead of learning how to play all the different types of chords and progressions (much of which has come from jazz). I had to write music with coming up with my own chord changes and not follow formulas. When I listen to a lot of these instructional music theory videos on youtube, I'm impressed by how nice the chord progressions sound, but then I realize that almost everyone using them is not writing innovative or "serious music" and in many ways is sounding the same. The battle is between writing nice sounding music that doesn't really move music forward and writing nice sounding music that moves music forward but maybe even you yourself is isolated from because it's not convenient to get into that space. This is really the story of "classical music" today and why so many people would chose other musics because of it. 

A lot more could be written about this, and maybe it's for the Music Theory section here.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

regenmusic said:


> I had to write music with coming up with my own chord changes and not follow formulas.


you were probably using formulas used by someone else, only without knowing it, and maybe struggling a lot more. Also, learning harmony in depth that also means clearly learning common progressions and substitutions and things used by many musicians (that I guess what classical musicians who are interested in music learn too, like with counterpoint, sonata form and stuff like that) doesn't certainly exclude the possibility 
of developing an original voice... which is actually what a lot of jazz musicians have.

That said, about this thread... I don't get what's the point of making random recommendations onestly. I mean knowing at least what Gargamel likes (artists, albums, genres, subgenres), what jazz he has listened to, if there's at least something that he appreciated would make it possible to know what we are talking about. Like this, it could just ending with everyone putting his favorites, which it doesn't seem to me it would help a lot onestly.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

Well, why the heck not norman bates? By acknowledging my jazz aversion, here's hoping the cure will be found. I suppose it's hard to relate someone whose preferences you don't know. 15 years ago, in my late teens, I explored the standard classical repertoire from Mozart to Mahler and Strauss. After overcoming my initial nausea towards modern music, there was a period of 5 years where I would listen to nothing but Schoenberg, Berg, Carter, Sessions, Reger, Hindemith, Babbitt and even Stravinsky. I find all of this stuff really sings. The last few years I gave myself out to less dense stuff - every opus by Haydn, Cherubini and Beethoven's piano music, so we're pretty far away from jazz. Oh yeah, and Poulenc's piano music, great stuff!



pianozach said:


> *Rhapsody in Blue* is Classical Jazz Fusion genre-wise. And certainly not sleepy.


Seriously, dude? As hinted by my original post, I know most Gershwin melodies by heart. I listened for a year or two almost nothing but Gershwin, Bernstein (Candide!), Sondheim and Rodgers. I'll take anything by these composers, including jazz and big band versions, but otherwise I can't stand much big band music. I wager it's the "musicals spirit" that you won't find frequently elsewhere in jazz.

Anyways, thanks for all the suggestions! I think I was especially interested by the Earl Hines Quintet (Fatha Blows Best) and Clifford Brown and Joe Henderson (Canyon Lady). When I was younger I gave Coltrane, Parker and Monk a few spins but never found anywhere near being hooked. And it never occurred to me to explore latin jazz, or that there exists latin jazz which is weird, considering how much I've been into spanish classical music.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I respect and admire Jazz artists, but that's like saying I respect and admire Baroque artists. I don't pretend Baroque is an open ended form any more than I pretend Jazz is. Stop pretending.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

If you want weird, eccentric and beautiful latin jazz listen to Hermeto Pascoal. I recommend starting with Slaves Mass.

Egberto Gismonti is another superb Brazilian composer, guitarist, pianist who has recorded many excellent albums for ECM.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Skakner said:


> Jazz has so many subgenres.


Exactly!

So many subgenres, and some of them sound nothing like many of the others.

The ECM label has its own ethos, that I tend to call "chamber jazz", but that term has a different connotation among jazz circles. But much of the releases on ECM have quite a bit of European classical influences, but the musicians are improvising them. Much of the ECM releases are not like typical jazz, format: head>solo>head>solo, etc., where the rest of the musicians are just playing the chords behind the soloist.

M-Base is a style that is a bit funky, yet is played in pretty complex time signatures. Artists such as: Steve Coleman, Andrew Milne, Greg Osby, Vihay Ivar, Ravi Coltrane, and more.

Fusion, began in the 70's, still going strong today. Known for the extremely high level of chops. Maybe the most structured of all subgenres. Usually very fiery and intense. In the past, it was: Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, Brand X, Allan Holdsworth, Bruford, and others. Recently, it's been: Alex Machacek, McGill/Manring/Stevens, Forgas Band Phenomena, Spaced Out, and many more.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Gargamel said:


> Seriously, dude? As hinted by my original post, I know most Gershwin melodies by heart. I listened for a year or two almost nothing but Gershwin, Bernstein (Candide!), Sondheim and Rodgers. I'll take anything by these composers, including jazz and big band versions, but otherwise I can't stand much big band music. I wager it's the "musicals spirit" that you won't find frequently elsewhere in jazz.c.


You might like the Bethlehem Records jazz version of Porgy & Bess

View attachment 154881


*Porgy and Bess*
Duke Ellington (Conductor), Russ Garcia (Conductor), Bethlehem Orchestra (Orchestra), Mel Torme (Performer), Frances Fey (Performer), Betty Roche (Performer), Johnny Hartman (Performer), George Kirby (Performer), Sallie Blair


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Simon Moon said:


> The ECM label has its own ethos, that I tend to call "chamber jazz", but that term has a different connotation among jazz circles. But much of the releases on ECM have quite a bit of European classical influences, but the musicians are improvising them. Much of the ECM releases are not like typical jazz, format: head>solo>head>solo, etc., where the rest of the musicians are just playing the chords behind the soloist.


Nicely put!
Manfred Eicher's creation, *ECM*, is a whole musical universe with exceptional musicians. Metheny, Garbarek, Stenson, Bjornstad, Rydpal, Stanko, Paul Bley, to name but a few. And above all, the legendary *Keith Jarrett* whose solo albums with ECM redefined the improvisation and created a unique genre, dare to say, still unparalleled.
Nevertheless, ECM sound wouldn't match Gargamel's ears.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Gargamel said:


> Well, why the heck not norman bates? By acknowledging my jazz aversion, here's hoping the cure will be found. I suppose it's hard to relate someone whose preferences you don't know. 15 years ago, in my late teens, I explored the standard classical repertoire from Mozart to Mahler and Strauss. After overcoming my initial nausea towards modern music, there was a period of 5 years where I would listen to nothing but Schoenberg, Berg, Carter, Sessions, Reger, Hindemith, Babbitt and even Stravinsky. I find all of this stuff really sings. The last few years I gave myself out to less dense stuff - every opus by Haydn, Cherubini and Beethoven's piano music, so we're pretty far away from jazz. Oh yeah, and Poulenc's piano music, great stuff!


if you're into that kind of avantgarde, you should try with more modern jazz.

Andrew Hill





Eric Dolphy 





Miles Davis (second quintet and electric period)





Booker Little





Sun Ra





Grachan Moncur





Anthony Braxton





Tim Berne





Paul Bley





to mention just a few


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

norman bates said:


> if you're into that kind of avantgarde, you should try with more modern jazz.
> 
> Andrew Hill
> 
> ...


I don't know about avant-garde, I have a short attention span these days. The avant-garde classical works I listen to are mostly works I'm already familiar with.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Using blanket labels like avant garde is not very productive. All of these artists have their own musical identities. What is the point of pretending to explore jazz but using the excuse of a short attention span? If you hear the sound of Eric Dolphy you will never forget it. You don't need to concentrate for hours. Other than his Blue Note album, Out To Lunch, his music is not very far out.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

What about this? Its so smoooth


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bwv 1080 said:


> What about this? Its so smoooth


Well smooth is one word for it!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kenny G. Music for people who hate jazz, so it could be a possible favorite for the OP?


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Kenny G's music is Jazz?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

y'all are just haters, learn to embrace the smooothnesss


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Gargamel said:


> jazz doesn't do anything for me.


You're not alone: https://tinyurl.com/2yvjtyau


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Jay said:


> You're not alone: https://tinyurl.com/2yvjtyau


A seven year old report? Mmm!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Jay said:


> You're not alone: https://tinyurl.com/2yvjtyau


Jazz and Classical routinely poll the lowest market shares. I ignore this data since I love jazz and classical, as well as, other genres which have a small market share.

But, if these reports mean something important to _you _.... there's always country, pop and rap. I like those genres as well but listen to jazz and classical more.


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## WNvXXT (Nov 22, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Jazz and Classical...


That's all I listen to - unless I'm driving, then I tune into the oldies channel now and then.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

WNvXXT said:


> That's all I listen to - unless I'm driving, then I tune into the oldies channel now and then.


When driving I'll usually have the radio tuned to NPR (National Public Radio), or the Classical Music station. Unless the wife's in the car. She prefers 1980s and 1990s pop music, and I find the best selection of THAT on the "oldies" station. :lol:


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> A seven year old report? Mmm!


I suspect it's even worse today.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I don't like jazz. I like that older style of jazz, before 'Kind of Blue' and similar overcomplicated stuff happened. All that noodling is simply way too annoying for me and it doesn't make any sense. I also can't feel it and if I feel something it's not positive. 
It's the music for people who believe that music is something intellectual and not emotional or exciting to listen to. I don't listen to music with intellect because I'm too stupid for that (and thank God for that). 
I've met a few people who like jazz and they were obnoxious pricks... so full of themselves.. they were the best, the smartest, they knew what the real music is. They listened to jazz because that automatically made them smarter and better than all the rest of us pathetic and useless mortals. 

Kenny G is not jazz. That's instrumental pop. All the hate towards G is really only by jazz self proclaimed 'lovers' just going with the snobbish flow and nothing else. His music is typical 80's smooth soap opera music - nothing special, but it has certain charm to it, at least for those who like that type of bath tub/spa music.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

nikola said:


> I don't like jazz. I like that older style of jazz, before 'Kind of Blue' and similar overcomplicated stuff happened. All that noodling is simply way too annoying for me and it doesn't make any sense. I also can't feel it and if I feel something it's not positive.


Kind of Blue is way simpler than the Jazz that came before it



> It's the music for people who believe that music is something intellectual and not emotional or exciting to listen to. I don't listen to music with intellect because I'm too stupid for that (and thank God for that).
> I've met a few people who like jazz and they were obnoxious pricks... so full of themselves.. they were the best, the smartest, they knew what the real music is. They listened to jazz because that automatically made them smarter and better than all the rest of us pathetic and useless mortals.


good that people who listen to classical music arent like this.



> Kenny G is not jazz. That's instrumental pop. All the hate towards G is really only by jazz self proclaimed 'lovers' just going with the snobbish flow and nothing else. His music is typical 80's smooth soap opera music - nothing special, but it has certain charm to it, at least for those who like that type of bath tub/spa music.


Its Jazz in the same way that André Rieu is classical


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Anyway, unlike other pathetic and useless mortals, only the best and smartest people like jazz and know what real music is


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah, funny how Nikola thinks bebop is simple and Kind Of Blue is complicated. So take your pick of what you despise more. Jazz snobbery or musical ignorance?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Don't hate the hater. Hate the crappy snobbish music that you like


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

There you go guys... you IQ will automatically grow while listening to this while mine will go down.
But don't tell me this is not how all jazz sounds like because this is EXACTLY how all jazz sounds like. Jazz is like farting in the dark - you never know where the next note will be, but you know that you will suffer when you smell it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

nikola said:


> There you go guys... you IQ will automatically grow while listening to this while mine will go down.
> But don't tell me this is not how all jazz sounds like because this is EXACTLY how all jazz sounds like. Jazz is like farting in the dark - you never know where the next note will be, but you know that you will suffer when you smell it.


Now that's what I call jazz. The incomparable Ornette with a classic. The alternate take of this is excellent too. This and Coltrane's Ascension are essential listening.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Wonderful!!!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never get the feeling that jazz musicians are snobs. And the music doesn't feel that way to me no matter what era it's from. It's the writers and critics that attach the labels and manufactured mystique to it. There is some later music that sounds over serious and devoid of humor but it can be tough to judge by recordings alone. Experiencing the music live can be a whole different thing.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Ok, I actually do not hate jazz that much. I think that what I don't like are some jazz listeners who will say that Kenny G is 'jazz' only to demonize his personality and his music, so they can feel better about themselves and more important. It's almost the same with classical listeners who will call Yanni's music 'classical music' so they can crap all over it. From psychological point of view it's really shallow and predictable behaviour - very childish and herd-like behaviour.

I actually like jazz more when it's incorporated in other styles than all of his own hybrids. I just don't care mostly about it. It's nice to hear some jazz influences in pop and blues music etc. It's also nice to hear mix of jazz and classical music (Gershwin). I like music with themes, so if all jazz would sound like Mancini's 'Pink Panther Theme' I would like it then. I like the development of themes, original musical ideas etc. 
95% of jazz sounds like epitome of pastiche to me. It lacks original musical ideas, it's mostly endless noodling etc. Most genres that have millions of musicians to play these genres only makes those genres to lose their quality in the process. 
It's not that I don't 'understand' jazz. I simply don't like the majority of jazz. To me, it's like eating cardboard - there's no taste, no feeling, no purpose, no nothing. 
My mentality simply isn't on the same level with that kind of music. It's more like annoying and boring mathematic than music. I don't listen to music for mathematical purposes. I listen to it to make me feel something or music that is able to start playing some movies in my head. Jazz most of the time can't do that. Those are just tones over tones. That's not music for me (I mean, it is music, but not for me.. it is certainly for someone else). Sorry.

I also think that people should not be ashamed or scared to say that they don't like jazz or any style of music. My dad loved classical music and operas, but he never liked jazz. It's almost the same with me.I'm not crazy about operas though, but I do like classicals music and LOVE many classical pieces, especially gloomy and sad stuff like Mahler's Adagietto or 2nd movement from Beethoven's 7th symphony. 
That's all really far away from what jazz is.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

You are making a lot of assumptions and sweeping generalizations. Yeah, there is a lot of free music with mostly improvised playing but there is an awful lot of jazz with strong melodic statements and themes. It just takes some time to sift through it all and find what you enjoy. Mancini can be enjoyable but I don't really consider it jazz. But it really makes no difference. The jazz influence has infiltrated all forms of popular music. It's even been said that American classical brass players sound different than there European colleagues due to the influence of jazz players. And by this late date the European players have most likely been influenced as well.

PS You might enjoy the James Moody album of Mancini tunes. I remember hearing some of it on the radio 20 years or so ago.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> You are making a lot of assumptions and sweeping generalizations. Yeah, there is a lot of free music with mostly improvised playing but there is an awful lot of jazz with strong melodic statements and themes. It just takes some time to sift through it all and find what you enjoy. Mancini can be enjoyable but I don't really consider it jazz. But it really makes no difference. The jazz influence has infiltrated all forms of popular music. It's even been said that American classical brass players sound different than there European colleagues due to the influence of jazz players. And by this late date the European players have most likely been influenced as well.
> 
> PS You might enjoy the James Moody album of Mancini tunes. I remember hearing some of it on the radio 20 years or so ago.


I know there is jazz music and certain 'mix' of jazz with other styles that I do like, but from majority of what I heard, I found it simply annoying. If I would listen to millions pieces of jazz music only to find something that is tolerable or likeable to me I would go crazy. 
Ok, for example, I do love intro of Art Blakey's 'Moanin'. I think it's brilliant 'riff'... what comes after it is predictable jazz that simply goes everywhere, but I still tolerate that piece way more than other jazz music. Still, after a 2 or 3 mnutes listening to something like that that frantically goes on and on, I'm getting really nervous, my head starts to hurt etc. It's all different, yet it's all the same and my head simply hear it as a noise and not some musical story that develops. If it is movie it would be like watching a guy running or smoking a cigarette throughout the whole movie. 
It's really not music for my brain. It's even very painful sometimes.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Yeah, funny how Nikola thinks bebop is simple and Kind Of Blue is complicated. So take your pick of what you despise more. Jazz snobbery or musical ignorance?


I think that ignorance is a huge part of being a snob. Nikola is showing us with his ignorance exactly what a snob is in this case.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I never get the feeling that jazz musicians are snobs. And the music doesn't feel that way to me no matter what era it's from. It's the writers and critics that attach the labels and manufactured mystique to it. There is some later music that sounds over serious and devoid of humor but it can be tough to judge by recordings alone. Experiencing the music live can be a whole different thing.


I think there are snobs in any genre, there are fans and jazz musicians who are snobs, and there are fans of Abba who are snobs too, being a snob is not something reserved to a certain category.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I think that ignorance is a huge part of being a snob. Nikola is showing us with his ignorance exactly what a snob is in this case.


:lol:
You really got all butt hurt, aren't you? 
That's what happens when someone says something negative about sacred cow. 
There's nothing ignorant about my views. 
I simply don't like the majority of jazz and that has nothing to do with my 'ignorance'. It's simply music that most of the time I can't tolerate.

This is what The Police drummer Copeland said and I agree with him: 
"It's a fun party trick, but I am allergic to jazz. I was raised to be a jazz musician, my father was a jazz musician and I was steeped in jazz from the moment my ears blinked open, which is why I am immune to jazz. And my main reason why I love dissing jazz is jazz musicians. The problem with jazz musicians is that they are all crap. It's sort of like jazz is the refuge of the talent-less. If you really want to be a musician and you are prepared to really work hard at it, but you don't have the gift and you don't have any soul and you don't have any talent, jazz is what you should do; because all you need to do is just spend hours training your fingers to wiggle very quickly and you'll be a hero in the jazz world. "


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> It's not that I don't 'understand' jazz. I simply don't like the majority of jazz.


no believe me, it's clear to everybody here that you don't understand jazz, but not because you're not able to understand if you would start seriously listen to it, but because you don't know jazz in the first place and you hate this idea of the genre and the listeners you have in your mind, so that you cringe even at the idea of listening to it, because all you see is stupid snobs who enjoy their farts. It's called having a prejudice. I have that too for certain music, but at least I recognize my limitation. I don't get Mozart most of the time, but it's not his music that is bad, it's my problem. That gem about Kind of blue is just another perfect demonstration of your lack of understandind, but I knew that already.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> :lol:
> You really got all butt hurt, aren't you?
> That's what happens when someone says something negative about sacred cow.
> There's nothing ignorant about my views.
> ...


well, good musicians can be like everybody else, that can say incredibly stupid thing too. What I think it's strange is the fact that he worked with Sting, who loves to work with jazz musicians, go figure.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> no believe me, it's clear to everybody here that you don't understand jazz, but not because you're not able to understand if you would start seriously listen to it, but because you don't know jazz in the first place and you hate this idea of the genre and the listeners you have in your mind, so that you cringe even at the idea of listening to it, because all you see is stupid snobs who enjoy their farts. It's called having a prejudice. I have that too for certain music, but at least I recognize my limitation. I don't get Mozart most of the time, but it's not his music that is bad, it's my problem. That gem about Kind of blue is just another perfect demonstration of your lack of understandind, but I knew that already.


:lol:
It's funnyhow much you try to prove that someone who don't like jazz simply 'don't understand it'. I've heard thousands of jazz pieces. I'm 40 years old and I have my experience with music. People were sending me jazz from some unknown pub jazz musicians through the years to show mw how 'great it is' and it was all pretty much horrible experience. 
I really, I mean REALLY can't stand the majority of jazz. It's music that's so FULL OF IT! LOL... so self-important and pretentious music that is so full of 'intellectual' crap. Every jazz noodler is like 'genius' in the eyes of the jazz lovers. 
But don't get me wrong because I don't like metal music either... I think it's music for people who still have adolescent brains and draw boobs, skulls, monsters and swords in their notebooks. It's not that 'I don't understand' metal either. I simply don't like it. 
I like though hard-rock... I do like Deep Purple and such stuff, but metal and jazz - NO. 
I also don't care for hip-hop. I'm not from the ghetto and I'm not from the US, so I won't pretend to 'understand' something (there's nothing to understand) that sounds crappy to me.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> well, good musicians can be like everybody else, that can say incredibly stupid thing too. What I think it's strange is the fact that he worked with Sting, who loves to work with jazz musicians, go figure.


It's not incredibly stupid. It's his opinion. The problem is YOU who can't live with the fact that some people don't like jazz. If you are so certain that jazz is that great you would not need to become jazz lawyer to prove yourself and to other people how great it is. 
I love Ennio Morricone's music and I don't need you to approve him or like him so that I would know that he is a brilliant composer.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> :lol:
> It's funnyhow much you try to prove that someone who don't like jazz simply 'don't understand it'. I've heard thousands of jazz pieces. I'm 40 years old and I have my experience with music.


and you're still saying things like "I like that older style of jazz, before 'Kind of Blue' and similar overcomplicated stuff happened" that made everybody laugh here and for a good reason. I don't know what you've listened to, but you clearly wasn't really paying attention to it.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> and you're still saying things like "I like that older style of jazz, before 'Kind of Blue' and similar overcomplicated stuff happened" that made everybody laugh here and for a good reason. I don't know what you've listened to, but you clearly wasn't really paying attention to it.


When I see a turd I don't need to lick all over it so that I would know that it's turd. I'm not a masochist.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> It's not incredibly stupid. It's his opinion. The problem is YOU who can't live with the fact that some people don't like jazz. If you are so certain that jazz is that great you would not need to become jazz lawyer to prove yourself and to other people how great it is.
> I love Ennio Morricone's music and I don't need you to approve him or like him so that I would know that he is a brilliant composer.


Of course I can live withthe fact that some people don't like jazz. But like everybody else, especially on a forum made for discussions, I can reply to what I think is a stupid reason for it. And as I already said to you in the past, Morricone played jazz too, and exactly the kind of jazz you hate the most. And he hated most of pop and rock music (even if he composed some!).


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

And you mentioned Mozart. Oh well... Mozart has some truly brilliant stuff, but listening to every one of his hundreds and hundreds of compositions can be painful experience. What is great by him is really great, but he has many pieces that he composed as a young man and to me, it sounds most of the time like a pastiche to his own music. Not all of his music is THAT great and majority is really nothing THAT special. His piano concertos though are mostly brilliant. I'm just being honest. Everybody has right not to like something and you have a right not to like Mozart.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> When I see a turd I don't need to lick all over it so that I would know that it's turd. I'm not a masochist.


that's your point of view; my point of view (and I suspect it's shared by the others persons who replied to that) is that it's a clear demonstration of your snobbery and lack of understanding. I would tell you why, but there's no reason for it because you're here just to tell us what kind of miserable beings those who appreciate jazz are.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Of course I can live withthe fact that some people don't like jazz. But like everybody else, especially on a forum made for discussions, I can reply to what I think is a stupid reason for it. And as I already said to you in the past, Morricone played jazz too, and exactly the kind of jazz you hate the most. And he hated most of pop and rock music (even if he composed some!).


Well, I do tolerate well and really like Morricone's jazz. Go figure it. Maybe because he is extremely talented composer? He doesn't like improvisation though and he's not that crazy about jazz. That's maybe the proof that jazz could be good, but I just don't like jazz that arrives from mentality of majority of jazz musicians.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> And you mentioned Mozart. Oh well... Mozart has some truly brilliant stuff, but listening to every one of his hundreds and hundreds of compositions can be painful experience. What is great by him is really great, but he has many pieces that he composed as a young man and to me, it sounds most of the time like a pastiche to his own music. Not all of his music is THAT great and majority is really nothing THAT special. His piano concertos though are mostly brilliant. I'm just being honest. Everybody has right not to like something and you have a right not to like Mozart.


But there are things I don't like and I perfectly understand those things, with Mozart... I don't get it, so no, my opinion isn't valid as the one of those who understand his music.
And that's the difference between you and me. I know that there's music that I don't like but I perfectly understand, but also music that I don't appreciate because I don't get it (at least so far, I hope in the future things will change) and that as a listener there are a lot of things to learn with experience. You seem to think that if you don't like something is always because that music is terrible and you don't have any limitation or prejudice as a listener.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Well, I do tolerate well and really like Morricone's jazz.


really?
Tell me how much you love this






and then tell me what are your favorite ten jazz pieces of Morricone. No, your favorite three jazz pieces of him.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> that's your point of view; my point of view (and I suspect it's shared by the others persons who replied to that) is that it's a clear demonstration of your snobbery and lack of understanding. I would tell you why, but there's no reason for it because you're here just to tell us what kind of miserable beings those who appreciate jazz are.


You are saying all this to make yourself feel better. Why is my opinion about jazz so important to you? I don't like majority of jazz for the reasons that make sense to me. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean that I don't 'understand' jazz. There's nothing to understand when something sounds like a crap. If you think that music should be 'understood' on intellectual level, then you, my dear friend, don't understand what music is about.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> You are saying all this to make yourself feel better. Why is my opinion about jazz so important to you? I don't like majority of jazz for the reasons that make sense to me. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean that I don't 'understand' jazz. There's nothing to understand when something sounds like a crap. If you think that music should be 'understood' on intellectual level, then you, my dear friend, don't understand what music is about.


not understood on a intellectual level, but understood on every kind of level. The fact that you're saying for instance that kind of blue was overcomplicated compared to what came before make all of us laugh... because it's exactly the opposite. Kind of blue is an album that tried (and was clearly successful at it, since it's usually loved by a lot of persons who don't usually don't have a big appreciation for jazz) to make jazz much more simple and melodic compared to what came before. It's all improvised and it feels as perfectly composed music. Simple but beautiful and memorable melodies, a lot of space, no overcomplication.
That's why it clearly shows that you don't know anything about the history of jazz, and it makes even difficult to believe that you have even heard the most famous jazz album of all times, go figure your knowledge of the rest of the genre.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> really?
> Tell me how much you love this
> 
> 
> ...


LOL... Ennio was experimenting with many things and that's what makes him great. What makes him even greater is actually his talent to compose hundreds of brilliant themes and bring many great musical ideas. Most of his experimentation was made to fit into some movie. He composed many fun little jazzy pieces and he was also the part of some experimental things that you posted, but he was NEVER a jazz musician.
What you posted I appreciate, but it's not something that I would listen. If he made only stuff like that I would never listen to him. I don't love 100% of what he composed, of course and I have a valid reason not to like everything - I simply don't like everything I hear.
I listen to him because of music like this:






and because of music like this:






and, of course, because of this:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Thread closed temporarily for clean-up.*


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*The thread is now opened again, after deletion of a number of posts.

A reminder to several posters, from our terms of service:*



> Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner.


and



> Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

nikola said:


> :lol:
> You really got all butt hurt, aren't you?
> That's what happens when someone says something negative about sacred cow.
> There's nothing ignorant about my views.
> ...


This is really stupid. The jazz world like any other genre is filled with brilliant musicians and artists. Am I to believe that Stewart Copeland believes all the great jazz drummers have no talent? If he actually said this stuff he has got to be the biggest jerk in the world.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> This is really stupid. The jazz world like any other genre is filled with brilliant musicians and artists. Am I to believe that Stewart Copeland believes all the great jazz drummers have no talent? If he actually said this stuff he has got to be the biggest jerk in the world.


IMO, the main problem is the music, not technical (playing) skills. Jazz is mostly showing-off. Being impressed with their skills is probably like being impressed with typing speed. Music is so much more than that, to me, of course. To some other people music is probably something else - probably the set of someones playing skills, etc. Some people simply don't like jazz. Copeland grew up in jazz family, yet he doesn't like it. It doesn't appeal to everybody and it doesn't have to. 
Also, if everybody loved jazz, then jazz listeners wouldn't feel so special.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Nikola, you really ought to give it a rest because you don't know what you're talking about. Do you really believe a world famous 100 plus year legacy of music was built on shallow technical displays and showing off? There's no sense in continuing this discussion because you know nothing of the music or its contributors.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Nikola, you really ought to give it a rest because you don't know what you're talking about. Do you really believe a world famous 100 plus year legacy of music was built on shallow technical displays and showing off? There's no sense in continuing this discussion because you know nothing of the music or its contributors.


The question is why are any of us who do enjoy jazz participating in a thread titled "I really hate jazz"?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> The question is why are any of us who do enjoy jazz participating in a thread titled "I really hate jazz"?


It started out with the OP asking for music suggestions to help get over his aversion to jazz. Now it has turned in to a trolling effort on the part of Nikola. I am only countering his misguided statements in the hope that others who are unfamiliar with the music will not be swayed by his bogus arguments.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> It started out with the OP asking for music suggestions to help get over his aversion to jazz. Now it has turned in to a trolling effort on the part of Nikola. I am only countering his misguided statements in the hope that others who are unfamiliar with the music will not be swayed by his bogus arguments.


LOL
poor jazz... destroying our ears everywhere for over a century at every corner could be endangered because of my opinon.
Oh God... i'm such a terrible bully and jazz destroyer. If jazz could be destroyed because of my opinon, then it wasn't something special in the first place. I rest my case! :tiphat:


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> Nikola, you really ought to give it a rest because you don't know what you're talking about. Do you really believe a world famous 100 plus year legacy of music was built on shallow technical displays and showing off? There's no sense in continuing this discussion because you know nothing of the music or its contributors.


I belive that in this so called 'democracy', the right of speech is something I can use, right? Right! I didn't say that ALL jazz is bad. I said that only majority of jazz is simply not for me. I don't like it. I like jazz-influenced music more than 'REAL' jazz. I like jazz chords and I even like the idea behind jazz... I just mostly don't like the annoying and pretentious execution of it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> The question is why are any of us who do enjoy jazz participating in a thread titled "I really hate jazz"?


To point out the error of their ways to those who do hate it!


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

This I do like... but I do love Twin Peaks music anyway because I think that Badalamenti is brilliant composer... maybe this is only improvised by someone else on his theme... not sure. Badalamenti really managed to give a new flavor to jazz with his Twin Peaks music. He made jazz kinda spooky. But still, that's not what jazz purists would call 'REAL' jazz:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Badalamenti really managed to give a new flavor to jazz with his Twin Peaks music. He made jazz kinda spooky


I love Twin Peaks and I like the soundtrack, but spooky jazz can be new only for someone who has a very superficial knowledge of the genre. Spooky jazz already existed in the thirties.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> it can be new only for someone who has a very superficial knowledge of the genre. Spooky jazz already existed in the thirties.


I didn't say that it didn't exist before. I only said what Badalamenti did and I like what he did. What he did was actually product of his own talent, not copy of something else. Twin Peaks wouldn't be Twin Peaks without his music. He is actually great at making unique atmosphere and mood. Jazz musicians mostly aren't. They simply massacre notes with noodles or with never ending boredom.

Also, it's interesting that of all possible nicknames, you have chosen the name of fictional psychopath.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

As a person who generally doesn't like jazz (while being Keith Jarrett fan) I think I'll drop the line or two here.
What bothers me most about jazz is: I'm usually pretty clear about what I consider good and bad music in most every other genre (tastes differ, but still) - not so with jazz. I'm just unable to tell the difference. It's almost as if I had been color-blind but only for one particular color! Funny thing but I really can't form any opinion on ~95% jazz music except for trying to turn it off or leave the place. Again, I'm a huge Jarrett fan (only his solo recordings, mind you) and I definitely tried to fool around with jazz chords and progressions on a guitar (not too successful but still, they sound so cool!) But as soon as hear some jazz piece (good or bad one? or maybe some really brilliant stuff? I cannot tell) - I just turn it off. No explanation how it works and I am not sure I want to learn the answer.
Sill, not dissing anything, but to the OP:



nikola said:


> I do like Deep Purple and such stuff


Mindless endless noodling going nowhere (check some of their live albums like Scandinavian Nights for a good example). Must be your exact definition for jazz music


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


>


Yeah, I already said that I like older jazz much more than what came after with Miles Davis etc. But this older jazz is 'too simple' for most of jazz purists. Glenn Miller is great too, but many jazz fans wouldn't even call that real jazz, meaning 'real': noodling, pretentious, neverending, overblown, dry, etc.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> I didn't say that it didn't exist before. I only said what Badalamenti did and I like what he did. What he did was actually product of his own talent, not copy of something else. Twin Peaks wouldn't be Twin Peaks without his music. He is actually great at making unique atmosphere and mood. Jazz musicians mostly aren't. They simply massacre notes with noodles or with never ending boredom.


actually there's a lot of jazz with a lot of atmosphere, like the piece I've posted above.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yeah, I already said that I like older jazz much more than what came after with Miles Davis etc. But this older jazz is 'too simple' for most of jazz purists.


Artie Shaw is jazz for every jazz purist on the planet (again showing your lack of knowledge of the genre), I don't think that anybody with even a superficial grasp of what jazz is would say that this isn't jazz:






and simplicity has never been a problem for purists (Louis Armstrong for instance played mostly on simple songs). Glenn Miller was able to make good music, but it wasn't exactly jazz because of lack of improvisations.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Azol said:


> As a person who generally doesn't like jazz (while being Keith Jarrett fan) I think I'll drop the line or two here.
> What bothers me most about jazz is: I'm usually pretty clear about what I consider good and bad music in most every other genre (tastes differ, but still) - not so with jazz. I'm just unable to tell the difference. It's almost as if I had been color-blind but only for one particular color! Funny thing but I really can't form any opinion on ~95% jazz music except for trying to turn it off or leave the place. Again, I'm a huge Jarrett fan (only his solo recordings, mind you) and I definitely tried to fool around with jazz chords and progressions on a guitar (not too successful but still, they sound so cool!) But as soon as hear some jazz piece (good or bad one? or maybe some really brilliant stuff? I cannot tell) - I just turn it off. No explanation how it works and I am not sure I want to learn the answer.
> Sill, not dissing anything, but to the OP:
> 
> Mindless endless noodling going nowhere (check some of their live albums like Scandinavian Nights for a good example). Must be your exact definition for jazz music


Oh, I love Jarrett's Koln concert. I also collected some other of his concerts and some of it I like, some of it not that much, but I should listen again since I forgotten so much of what I heard. 
When we talk about that 95% of jazz, I think that the 'problem' is how are brains are wired. Jazz simply doesn't make sense to some people and it's very annoying and neverending torture most of the time. Probably some people are able to listen to that torture with different parts of brain that is dead in ours... or maybe they have dead part of the brain, so other analytical parts work better to them than to us since we like something with more clear form, meaning, with emotion etc. For example, when I hear something that sounds more complex or like jazzy improvisation by globally hated Yanni, I really like it, but with typical jazz it mostly simply doesn't work for me. It's like jazz music really doesn't have any fabula... it all sounds like nevernding orgasm... or agony to us who are 'clueless' while listening to jazz.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Artie Shaw is jazz for every jazz purist on the planet (again showing your lack of knowledge of the genre), I don't think that anybody with even a superficial grasp of what jazz is would say that this isn't jazz:
> 
> and simplicity has never been a problem for purists (Louis Armstrong for instance played mostly on simple songs). Glenn Miller was able to make good music, but it wasn't exactly jazz because of lack of improvisations.


Yeah, ok, but the problem for me is still that 95% of jazz that I can't stand. I like that old style and vibe with really some subtle and storytelling vibe. That piece 'Nightmare' by Artie Shaw really tells a story. It makes me feel something. He plays for the sake of telling the story and to make audience feel something. Majority of jazz musicians are simply showing off with their neverending noodling. I really don't care how much someone is great at playing sax if he can't translate any musical idea or emotion to me. 
Just like Christina Aguilera - she has great vocals, but live, OMG, she is horrific, sings wrong notes and majority of people are not able to hear that. She beats every song to death with her vocal... almost like song exists for her vocals. Her vocals should actually exist for the song, but she can't feel the song.. she simply can't sing.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yeah, ok, but the problem for me is still that 95% of jazz that I can't stand. I like that old style and vibe with really some subtle and storytelling vibe. That piece 'Nightmare' by Artie Shaw really tells a story. It makes me feel something. He plays for the sake of telling the story and to make audience feel something. Majority of jazz musicians are simply showing off with their neverending noodling. I really don't care how much someone is great at playing sax if he can't translate any musical idea or emotion to me.


my problem with what you're saying is that 95% or that "majority of jazz musicians are simply showing off". Sure, there are jazz musicians who like to show off their chops, and jazz that is full of noodling (well improvisation is like a discussion, not being reharsed before it can be brilliant or go nowhere), but there's a lot of jazz that is restrained, expressive, full of soul etc, exactly as the pieces I've posted above, both in early and modern jazz (Keith Jarrett is not exactly vintage stuff by the way). So saying that the vast majoirity of jazz is just a people showing off with no emotion or sense of form really sounds a sweeping generalization against a whole genre full of incredibly different things that has existed for a century.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


>


This is nice, but not for me. Somewhere in the middle I completely lost interest. It's just typical borng jazz to me. Pretty much predictable and dry. Nice playing, but 'nice' is not enough for me.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't like brass solo instruments for one.
Jazz guitar seems like just notes. Fun for a little while and thats it.
And it just seems pointless to me.
Just rhythm and notes.
I enjoy a bit of Vince Giraldi or Bill Evans but not enough to want to buy it.
Much rather listen to Leslie West or Clapton at his best


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> my problem with what you're saying is that 95% or that "majority of jazz musicians are simply showing off". Sure, there are jazz musicians who like to show off their chops, and jazz that is full of noodling (well improvisation is like a discussion, not being reharsed before it can be brilliant or go nowhere), but there's a lot of jazz that is restrained, expressive, full of soul etc, exactly as the pieces I've posted above, both in early and modern jazz (Keith Jarrett is not exactly vintage stuff by the way). So saying that the vast majoirity of jazz is just a people showing off with no emotion or sense of form really sounds a sweeping generalization against a whole genre full of incredibly different things that has existed for a century.


Yes, but if you would post here many different types of jazz that you like, I would not like at least 50% of it... or much more. I know what jazz is... and I'm not crazy about it.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> This is nice, but not for me. Somewhere in the middle I completely lost interest. It's just typical borng jazz to me. Pretty much predictable and dry. Nice playing, but 'nice' is not enough for me.


I think it's the opposite of being dry, it's actually full of melancholy.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I think it's the opposite of being dry, it's actually full of melancholy.


Jazz is kinda limited with atmosphere it brings. It sounds like pastiche most of the time. Same chords with similar improvisations result with something that sounds same throughout genre - and that is actually the offical sound of jazz. You would say for 'Yesterday' that it's melancholic. I would say that it's boring and not interesting to listen to. It sounds like majority of jazz I already heard. Background music. I understand that some people love that, but not me. It's not the atmosphere that feel 'human' or even relaxing for my mentality or my emotional set-up.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Jazz is kinda limited with atmosphere it brings. It sounds like pastiche most of the time. Same chords with similar improvisations result with something that sounds same throughout genre - and that is actually the offical sound of jazz.


In terms of atmospheres jazz has often certain moods that I've never heard in any other genre. And I listen to pop, rock, classical music and other stuff. It's also an incredibly varied genre, to me saying that it all sounds the same is like saying that The Beatles, Radiohead, Metallica, Throbbling Gristle, Frank Zappa, Genesis, Morphine, Robert Wyatt, Neil Young, Slint, Talking Heads, Dream Theater and Ramones all have the same sound. Or that Bach, Mozart, Stravinsky, Debussy and Xenakis again sound all the same. Whoever would say that would be considered out of his mind, or completely ignorant or suffering from amusia.
Even the very first days I started listening to jazz (maybe because I started with compilations with a lot of different artists and styles), that means the period when the lack of familiarity tends to produce the "everything sounds the same" effect the big variety was apparent.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

All music consists of rhythm and notes. But they are used to create melodies. If you can't hear them then that's a reflection on the listener not the music. When I listen to Pat Metheny, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, or Barney Kessel I hear melodies.

The pertinent question here is why some people with no taste for the music and no knowledge of the artists insist on talking about it and putting it down with uneducated opinions and calling jazz music crap?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> All music consists of rhythm and notes. But they are used to create melodies. If you can't hear them then that's a reflection on the listener not the music. When I listen to Pat Metheny, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, or Barney Kessel I hear melodies.


There are melodies? You are the real life Sherlock! :tiphat:



starthrower said:


> The pertinent question here is why some people *with no taste for the music*


ouch... that hurt...



starthrower said:


> and *no knowledge of the artists insist*


You dear Mr. All Knowing are truly merciless!



starthrower said:


> on talking about it and putting it down* with uneducated opinions* and calling jazz music crap?


Ouch, yout got me there.

Your ad hominem 'arguments' are stronger than my bad music taste! :trp::guitar::clap:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I just call it like I see it. I could care less if you don't like jazz. But if you continue to make ignorant comments I'm going to call you on them. You couldn't form an opinion of your own so you had to rely on some sarcastic comments by Stewart Copeland to decide jazz was crap.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

nikola said:


> There you go guys... you IQ will automatically grow while listening to this while mine will go down.
> But don't tell me this is not how all jazz sounds like because this is EXACTLY how all jazz sounds like. Jazz is like farting in the dark - you never know where the next note will be, but you know that you will suffer when you smell it.


That music souns quite interesting. But after 5 minutes or so I couldn't keep up the feeling. Went listening to Boulez' Derive 2 and some Varese. I simply _couldn't_ stop listening to those energetic pieces. Every note just begs for my attention.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I just call it like I see it. I could care less if you don't like jazz. But if you continue to make ignorant comments I'm going to call you on them. You couldn't form an opinion of your own so you had to rely on some sarcastic comments by Stewart Copeland to decide jazz was crap.


No, I just agree with Copeland, so I shared that. You actually can't accept other people opinions. I told you why I don't like majority of jazz and that disturbed your perception of reality. Well, I can't help you if you are offended by other people reasons why they don't like something that you do like. We don't all need to like the same things. There are for sure musical pieces that we both like and pieces that I like and you don't... and that's normal.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I just call it like I see it. I could care less if you don't like jazz. But if you continue to make ignorant comments I'm going to call you on them. You couldn't form an opinion of your own so you had to rely on some sarcastic comments by Stewart Copeland to decide jazz was crap.


It is a waste of time to answer this guy. This is the wrong thread for anyone interested in jazz, there's the Jazz Hole and probably other threads devoted to individual musicians like Miles.

The only surprising thing for me were those comments by Stewart Copeland, someone I'd pretty much forgotten about. Up until today I knew him as a rock drummer from 30 years ago, who's probably jealous of his band mate's greater success. After the demise of The Police, I had heard he'd written some music for film.

Today I learned he's a guy with daddy issues. Then again that interview was back in 2006, maybe he's mellowed into a new career since then and put his 15 minutes of fame behind him.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

SanAntone said:


> It is a waste of time to answer this guy. This is the wrong thread for anyone interested in jazz, there's the Jazz Hole and probably other threads devoted to individual musicians like Miles.
> 
> The only surprising thing for me were those comments by Stewart Copeland, someone I'd pretty much forgotten about. Up until today I knew him as a rock drummer from 30 years ago, who's probably jealous of his band mate's greater success. After the demise of The Police, I had heard he'd written some music for film.
> 
> Today I learned he's a guy with daddy issues. Then again that interview was back in 2006, maybe he's mellowed into a new career since then and put his 15 minutes of fame behind him.


I believe that it's healthy that this thread about jazz is here. People who don't like jazz must have every right to finally state their opinion about this sacred cow of genres. We will fight for our right to tell that we don't like it and why we don't like it. Those who can't live with that fact should be punished with 1 week of listening only Kenny G.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> I believe that it's healthy that this thread about jazz is here. People who don't like jazz must have every right to finally state their opinion about this sacred cow of genres. We will fight for our right to tell that we don't like it and why we don't like it. Those who can't live with that fact should be punished with 1 week of listening only Kenny G.


but you expressed your opinion about jazz for years in different threads, and this thread wasn't about saying that those who listen to jazz are pretentious snobs (a thing that you could do everywhere, altough I don't know what's the point besides insulting those people like us who are fans of jazz and that are here) it's the thread of a guy who was or is looking for suggestions.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> but your finally state your opinion about jazz for years in different threads, and this thread wasn't about saying that those who listen to jazz are pretentious snobs (a thing that you could do everywhere, altough I don't know what's the point besides insulting those people like us who are fans of jazz and that are here) it's the thread of a guy who was or is looking for suggestions.


Blaming someone because of his opinion, self-victimization, pointing fingers, manipulation, neverending ad hominems with only purpose to diminish someone with whom you guys don't agree.
Yes, my opinon from my own experience is that some jazz listeners are pretentious snobs. You're actually not proving me that I am wrong. I also don't like majority of jazz and I don't need 'an education' to state that something I don't like. I told you why I don't like it and you still cry and want to point that there's a problem within me for not liking jazz. I mean, how old are you actually? You act like children. I actually enjoy in conversation with you guys, so why is there always some problem? 
I don't like jazz and I'm sorry that I don't like it. There's no reason for you to be sad just because I don't like it. Get over it. You're big boys.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> it's the thread of a guy who was or is looking for suggestions.


That guy feels guilty for not liking jazz. He is suffering while listening to it, but he wants to force himself to like it. I'm here to tell him that it's ok not to like jazz. He must appreciate more his own musical taste. He doesn't owe anything to jazz fans.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

nikola said:


> I believe that it's healthy that this thread about jazz is here. People who don't like jazz must have every right to finally state their opinion about this sacred cow of genres. We will fight for our right to tell that we don't like it and why we don't like it. Those who can't live with that fact should be punished with 1 week of listening only Kenny G.


LOL - fight for your right to put down jazz and its fans? You're no Beastie Boys. :lol:

Knock yourself out, testify.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

SanAntone said:


> LOL - fight for your right to put down jazz and its fans? You're no Beastie Boys. :lol:
> 
> Knock yourself out, testify.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

nikola said:


> That guy feels guilty for not liking jazz. He is suffering while listening to it, but he wants to force himself to like it. I'm here to tell him that it's ok not to like jazz. He must appreciate more his own musical taste. He doesn't owe anything to jazz fans.


Dude, I'm that guy. I need to eat my vegetables.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

nikola said:


> That guy feels guilty for not liking jazz. He is suffering while listening to it, but he wants to force himself to like it. I'm here to tell him that it's ok not to like jazz. He must appreciate more his own musical taste. He doesn't owe anything to jazz fans.


*You have made your point, and the OP has acknowledged seeing it. That part is done. Now let's return to the question the OP posed:*



Gargamel said:


> Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

For all the stupidity of this thread, I can't deny that it has produced one of the best quotes I've come across on TC:



> Jazz is like farting in the dark - you never know where the next note will be, but you know that you will suffer when you smell it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Leave it to the TC intelligentsia to crap all over a great American art form.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Leave it to the TC intelligentsia to crap all over a great American art form.


This is the first time Kenny G has been championed by intelligentsia. Remarkable. Read it and weep Anthony Braxton.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)




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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Jazz is a journey... taken one step at a time...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz

Start here -






and before you know it, someday you'll actually find yourself here -


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> This is the first time Kenny G has been championed by intelligentsia. Remarkable. Read it and weep Anthony Braxton.


Cool Braxton anecdote -

"Near the end of a recent conversation with Rolling Stone, in which he emphasized time and again that his musical tastes aren't confined to any one style, eminent avant-gardist Anthony Braxton illustrated his point by sharing a nickname he's earned from those close to him.

"My friends call me Anthony 'Beefheart Boy' Braxton!" he says cheerfully.

"He was totally creative," Braxton says of the late Captain Beefheart. "His compositions were outrageously beautiful and original. His ensemble was really special. Some people talk of Captain Beefheart as a far-out rock musician, but when I think of Beethoven, Duke Ellington, [saxophonist] Paul Desmond and Frankie Lymon, I can easily put Captain Beefheart in with my heroes and heroines."

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...nterview-nels-cline-quartet-new-haven-844843/

Same here, Anthony, same here...


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)




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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Didn't someone post about us not wanting to be anti-intellectual? I think I remember that from yesterday.

Or maybe I'm wrong.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)




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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

Speaking of eating your vegetables, improving my guitar (and to some extent piano) playing is the main reason I'm trying to get into jazz. And it's also easier to fathom music theory when you understand the appeal. Understanding the appeal doesn't necessarily mean I particularly enjoy something. For instance, I really hate listening to AC/DC and Rolling Stones, but I understand why they appeal to some people. Can't say that about jazz.






I find this Earl Hines video is quite impressive, but there's not a moment when I'm not trying to resist turning it off. There is nothing in that music which I can't get more out of a virtuosic piano piece by some classical composer, e. g. Beethoven, Schumann, Boulez, Carter, or Babbitt.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)




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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Gargamel said:


> Speaking of eating your vegetables, improving my guitar (and to some extent piano) playing is the main reason I'm trying to get into jazz. And it's also easier to fathom music theory when you understand the appeal. Understanding the appeal doesn't necessarily mean I particularly enjoy something. For instance, I really hate listening to AC/DC and Rolling Stones, but I understand why they appeal to some people. Can't say that about jazz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So why even try? I worked as a jazz bassist for twenty years - it was my passion, still is, but at a distance now. I don't feel any need to convince anyone of what I think is great about jazz - each of us has music which we relate to and that that which turns us off.

Sure, I could tell you the jazz that I think is phenomenal, and even why I think it is great music. But why would I do that? Judging by the posting that has occurred in this thread I would merely be offering up for ridicule music and musicians that I admire.

But if you don't hear it I can't (and won't) try to help you understand.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Gargamel said:


> Speaking of eating your vegetables, improving my guitar (and to some extent piano) playing is the main reason I'm trying to get into jazz. And it's also easier to fathom music theory when you understand the appeal. Understanding the appeal doesn't necessarily mean I particularly enjoy something. For instance, I really hate listening to AC/DC and Rolling Stones, but I understand why they appeal to some people. Can't say that about jazz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 well in jazz there's a sense of spontaneity and rhythmic elasticity (the swing) that you will not find in classical music, like also blues feeling. In any case, Babbitt composed a third stream piece called All set. Maybe you should check out some third stream stuff. I still think that you could find something interesting exploring the post bop movement (like the guys I've mentioned, that were making more structured music instead of just going in the free jazz direction) that were using a highly advanced harmonies. And some of them sound like nothing you would find in classical music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> It is a waste of time to answer this guy. This is the wrong thread for anyone interested in jazz, there's the Jazz Hole and probably other threads devoted to individual musicians like Miles.
> 
> The only surprising thing for me were those comments by Stewart Copeland, someone I'd pretty much forgotten about. Up until today I knew him as a rock drummer from 30 years ago, who's *probably jealous of his band mate's greater success*. After the demise of The Police, I had heard he'd written some music for film.
> 
> Today I learned he's a guy with daddy issues. Then again that interview was back in 2006, maybe he's mellowed into a new career since then and put his 15 minutes of fame behind him.


I'm laughing.

*Most* rock bands have a limited shelf life, usually 5 to 10 years. (Yeah there are some notable exceptions . . . *Jethro Tull, Rolling Stones, Yes*, and others, but often even those that hang on for decades have a decreased output with diminishing quality. . . *Chicago* had a good run, and are still around, but they're mostly their own tribute band).

But *drummers?* Less than a couple of handfuls of drummer have a "Star Power" career after their band's demise, and usually it's because they also happen to be a singer. *Ringo Star, Don Henley, Dave Grohl, Phil Collins, Questlove* . . .And then there are the "next level" drummers that manage to make it despite being non-singers - *Ginger Baker, Buddy Rich, Neal Peart, Bill Bruford, Alan White, Gene Krupa, Hal Blaine*.

So . . . *Copeland? * Mmmph.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

norman bates said:


> well in jazz there's a sense of spontaneity and rhythmic elasticity (the swing) that you will not find in classical music, like also blues feeling. In any case, Babbitt composed a third stream piece called All set.


Eh, there's an inexhaustive current of "swing"in a lot of late Babbitt piano pieces. Both piano concertos, especially the second one, Canonical Forms, and About Time.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I found on youtube this playlist of top 100 jazz playlist classics. It actually has 257 pieces:





I will try when I have time to listen piece by piece and give here my uneducated comments, mostly about how much I like it or not. 
Lets start with the first one:






I never liked 'Kind of Blue' album. It's like the most typical jazzy jazz ever. That first 'na-na' theme is just sooo... worthless? Yes. The rest is some noodling... cool rhythm though. To sum it up... those sax and trumpet - good playing, not so much great or interesting music. Still, I can appreciate it for what it is on dry technical level, but it's not interesting music to me. So dry, like something that would Gordon Ramsey eat in the restaurant that is falling apart. 
My rating: 3.5/10

Next one:






I actually like this one pretty much... great piano riff, great melody on trumpet. I like the drums part in this one. That repetitive piano riff makes it almost like a hypnotic experience. Overally it is exciting composition. 
My rating: 8/10

Next one:






Sorry, KOB really isn't my thing. Generic jazz. I'm listening to it, yet at the same time I can't hear it and I don't feel anyting. It doesn't tell me any story, it doesn't bring any emotion that I could relate to. It's just 'there'... it's just going and going... like 'Fredddie Freeloader' - nice playing and somewhtat interesting explorations during all that sax improvisation, but not so great listening experience. My brain finds it annoying. I heard worse, though. 
My rating: 3.5/10

Next one:





This is pretty much cool and digestable. Nice musical theme at the beginning, though somehow repetitive, but piano that starts around 2 minutes makes it even much more interesting. Sax/trumpet (yes, I'm too stupid to hear the difference sometimes) that start at 4:00 is also cool. I can see why someone would appreciate this piece for so many reasons. It's still not the music for me (on psychological and emotional level), but it's still really great, exciting and fun piece and listening experience too. Who knows... maybe I'll start to appreciate jazz more, at least certain parts of it. 
My rating: 9/10

The rest is coming later.
I hope that Gargamel will join me in reviewing the music from this playlist


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Cool rhythm and some nice ideas throughout, but too long, too much repetitiveness and too much 'more of the same'. This is probably the moment when I realize that I search in jazz for something that simply isn't there. It's not that I don't like improvisation... I just don't like mostly jazz improvisation and I don't like when the whole piece is simply made up from improvisation. After minute 6 the piano and bass improvisations are kinda more interesting and a nice change. 10 minutes is waaay too long for something like this. Not for me, but it's still ok.
My rating: 5/10






I know this one. Brilliant opening. Even though the piano playing is pretty good throughout the piece and I like the improvisation on the main theme, the problem is that I somehow space out during it and I'm not actually able to focus on the piece. The other problem for me is too much screeching with sax at times... something my ears really can't tolerate. 5 minutes of this would be more than enough.
My rating: 6.5/10


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Some great organ playing at parts (especially since minute 3), but overall, kinda usually predictable and bland. I would like to hear more variations. Still, it's somehow much more tolerable to hear organ and guitar noodling instead of sax or trumpet. I really appreciate this piece for their playing abilities, but not so much for experience. 
My rating: 5.5/10






This is some kind of latin/bossa nova/whatever influenced I guess. I mean... I don't care for it, really. Background music for some 1960's James Bond movie while he is in some latin bar... argh.. I don't know what to think. It's really not for me. Also 15 minutes? I mean, come on... this is the first one I really can't listen till the end. Such neverending boredom... damn!
My rating: 3/10






FINALLY something shorter. And still, it's such jazz pastiche. Couldn't care less. Good playing, nothing else. Everything I don't like about jazz is in this piece. 
My rating: 3/10






Not bad... I tolerate piano quite well everywhere. Nice theme and fine improvisation. Not too long and that's fine. 3 minutes are enough to examine what he wanted to say... slightly experimental. I only don't understand why Glen Gould is making noises here?
My rating: 6/10






Nice melancholy. Simple piece, yet effective... kinda sad. Not too impressive, but it's fine. I like that one note bass repeating itself for 3 times through the piece. 
My rating: 6/10


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Glenn Miller-ish type of music. It's ok, but I've heard better music in that style. Kinda dated, but it has certain charm. It reminds me of old Tom & Jerry cartoons.
My rating: 4.5/10






Typical jazz. It leaves me neutral. Don't care at all about it.
My rating: 3.5/10






Another typical jazz. Not some interesting musical ideas in here. Great piano and sax playing though, but that's it. 
My rating: 4/10


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

LOL

*". . . typical jazzy jazz . . . "*


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Nikola, since you seem to tolerate more shorter jazz with not too long improvisations (and probably not too much harmonically adventurous), I'm curious to see you reviewing some of these pieces:

Vince Guaraldi - Cast your fate to the wind





Don Ellis - Turkish Bath





Hugh Masekela - Grazing in the grass





Gerry Mulligan - Night lights





Cannonball Adderley & Nancy Wilson - Never will I marry





Mary Lou Williams & Ben Webster - Cancer





Swingberries - Ghost of love





Duke Ellington - Blue Serge





Dave Brubeck - The Duke





Lee Morgan - Waltz for Fran





Teddy Wilson - Misty





and something a bit longer or different:

Duke Ellington - Come Sunday





Charles Mingus - Solo Dancer





Art Pepper - Lost life (the guy you destroyed above, here in a longer improvisation)





Lee Morgan - Dear Sir





Alec Wilder - Seldom the sun (this is not truly jazz, but I'm still curious)


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Finally, the real noodle! The is the epitome of everything I hate about jazz. I don't even think it's music. It's more like ************ than playing an instrument. I see in youtube comments that some guy is trying to make philosphy around this piece and telling that 'people don't understand this music'...LOL. Yes, it's hard to play it... even harder to understand it. There are many hard to do things out there and those things aren't music because of that. This is really horrible. Now I remember why I hate jazz :lol:
There are some good things in jazz, I admit, but this is not one of those (at least to me). 
My rating: 1/10






Some kind of sterile elevator/lounge/whatever music. I mean, it's kinda listenable, yet still brutally unintersting and boring. Still, the guy is good at blowing trumpet. 
My rating: 3.5/10






This actually tells a story with its musical progress. It lets in some subtlety... it lets listener to breathe.. it doesn't try to kill you with screaming into your face. But I'm not crazy about solos, especially that neurotic flute. 
My rating: 4/10






Typical jazz. Not too annoying, yet almost there. Nothing interesting here. 
My rating: 3/10






At least it's not sax/trumpet. But it's still typical noodling. Couldn't care less about stuff like this.
My rating: 2.5/10


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Nikola, since you seem to tolerate more shorter jazz with not too long improvisations (and probably not too much harmonically adventurous), I'm curious to see you reviewing some of these pieces:
> 
> ....


I'll give those a listen.

BTW, I really liked this and it's over 7 minutes long:


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Vince Guaraldi - Cast your fate to the wind




This sounds to me like Nashville country (Floyd Cramer?) 
It's ok with some OK ideas, but it's not too interesting. 4.5/10

Don Ellis - Turkish Bath




I actually like the horns rhythm/riff here. It's a silly little piece... I like it! 7/10

Hugh Masekela - Grazing in the grass




It's ok... I don't know what to say. Not impressed, but it has a kinda interesting musical idea... it's more like a little jingle. 4.5/10

Gerry Mulligan - Night lights




It's nice, yet too mellow, too typical and too predictable for my taste. It lacks a certain depth that I like to hear in the music. 5/10

Cannonball Adderley & Nancy Wilson - Never will I marry




Not for me. It's not much more than jazz 'pastiche'. 3/10

Mary Lou Williams & Ben Webster - Cancer




Yeah, I like this. It's like watching an old movie... it's colorful... I'm not saying it's great or anything near that, but this is closer to jazz I tolerate and even like sometimes. 6.5/10 It has that vibe of 'Strange Fruit' by Billie Holiday - a dark, almost sinister, sultry (if that's a good term).

I do like such music if it's interesting enough to me. I also like this jazzy vocal song by Badalamenti: 




Swingberries - Ghost of love




It sounds like something from a Woody Allen movie. It's a nice little piece... laid back. It doesn't make me feel much though. 5.5/10

Duke Ellington - Blue Serge




Yes, it's the style that I like more. I'm not impressed, though the middle part is interesting. 5/10

Dave Brubeck - The Duke




Not bad, but not very interesting. Background music. 4/10

I will listen to the rest later.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I guess that if Elton John would compose jazz that I would like it much more:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> I do like such music if it's interesting enough to me. I also like this jazzy vocal song by Badalamenti:


I've always loved Sycamore tree. With The Red Room but probably even before it's my favorite tune in all Twin Peaks. Jimmy Scott is such an amazing singer. I like also the Elton John tune, altough you would have much more success looking in the prog rock genre for that kind of stuff, or maybe some post-minimalist composer.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I've always loved Sycamore tree. With The Red Room but probably even before it's my favorite tune in all Twin Peaks. Jimmy Scott is such an amazing singer. I like also the Elton John tune, altough you would have much more success looking in the prog rock genre for that kind of stuff, or maybe some post-minimalist composer.


It seems that I'm always more interested in certain musicians than in certain genres. If I'm on the same wavelength with Elton John, Billy Joel or Ennio Morricone, I would like then even their jazzy stuff, probably because they actually don't think like jazz musicians who play/compose only jazz.
For example, this is pop song, but influenced by jazz. It even has a 2 trumpet solo parts by jazz musician Freddie Hubbard. And I really love that song including trumpet solo. I like this song even more than Steely Dan's music by which this was actually inspired. Some solos work for me, especially if they're part of something larger, but if there's only 10 minute frantic solo without some strong base, I can't stand it. I can't point finger at why exactly this trumpet solo works for me, while many other solos in jazz music do not.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Could it possibly be because this is nothing like jazz and is as pop as pop can be?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Could it possibly be because this is nothing like jazz and is as pop as pop can be?


Solo part is certainly jazz... riff/rhythm is also pretty much jazz. Song is still mostly pop, yes. Is there a problem, dear jazz lover? :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

As the Irish optimist said, Pas de probleme! I was only suggesting a possible answer to the question you posed in your last sentence!


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> As the Irish optimist said, Pas de probleme! I was only suggesting a possible answer to the question you posed in your last sentence!


Sure, and I'm happy that pop music uses jazz as influence


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Neuroscience and Jazz Improvisation: How Improvisation Shapes Creativity And What Happens Inside Our Brain*

https://www.openculture.com/2019/11/neuroscience-jazz-improvisation.html

Excerpt:
"Training and practice in improvisation may also have longer-term results as well. A study contrasting the brain activity of jazz and classical players found that the former were much quicker and more adaptable in their thinking. The researchers attributed these qualities to changes in the brain wrought by years of improvising. Norgaard and his team are much more circumspect in their conclusions, but they do suggest a causal link."

Scientific proof - jazz musicians (and by extension jazz aficionados) are just naturally brighter then everyone else - We can't help it - It's how our brains are wired... Everyone (make that "almost" everyone) who posts in "The Jazz Hole" certainly seems significantly more intelligent than those who don't post there.

And so, the moral of the story is that we shouldn't ostracize or criticize or even exorcize anyone who doesn't appreciate this particular art form... We should pity them... and light candles and say masses... for they know not what they are missing.

One last proof of our intellectual superiority... "The Jazz Hole" runs for 313 (and counting) pages with 4, 684 (and counting) posts and as of today's date, no one has appended "and Hitler" to any of the subjects contained within the thread - no "Armstrong and Hitler" - no "Coltrane and Hitler" - no "Miles and Hitler"... Good luck trying to pull that one off in either "Classical" or "Opera".


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

:lol::lol::lol:xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Sunburst Finish said:


> *Neuroscience and Jazz Improvisation: How Improvisation Shapes Creativity And What Happens Inside Our Brain*


Pearls before swine; but thanks anyway.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Sunburst Finish said:


> *Neuroscience and Jazz Improvisation: How Improvisation Shapes Creativity And What Happens Inside Our Brain*
> 
> https://www.openculture.com/2019/11/neuroscience-jazz-improvisation.html
> 
> ...


What????
............................


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

The rest of suggestions:

Lee Morgan - Waltz for Fran




Melancholic and nice. 6/10

Teddy Wilson - Misty




Ok, but not interesting. It sounds like a restaurant music where rich people eat lobsters. Kinda pastiche... maybe slightly above it. 4/10

and something a bit longer or different:

Duke Ellington - Come Sunday




Great vocal. Soulful piece. It doesn't happen much in a song, but it is still really nice. 7/10

Charles Mingus - Solo Dancer




Somewhat interesting experiment. Still, I'm not impressed much. 5/10

Art Pepper - Lost life (the guy you destroyed above, here in a longer improvisation)




Ok, but too much directionless for my taste 4/10

Lee Morgan - Dear Sir




Even more directionless... more like a collage of sounds than music. I guess it's interesting to some people on a musical level and that's perfectly fine with me, but it's not for me. 3/10

Alec Wilder - Seldom the sun (this is not truly jazz, but I'm still curious)




Kinda atonal. As the piece goes on it gets more and more interesting. I like it to a certain extent. 6.5/10


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

nikola said:


> I found on youtube this playlist of top 100 jazz playlist classics. It actually has 257 pieces.......
> 
> ..... I hope that Gargamel will join me in reviewing the music from this playlist


After hearing all of the pieces there, I had pretty much the same emotional response to them as you did. I kinda enjoyed the first Miles Davis piece which was short and sweet. Usually I associate each piece with only some particular feature which interests, such as the piano playing; the I heard the Brubeck piece like I hear most music by Nirvana - in that I wouldn't have much fondness of the music if it weren't for the drumming. Miles Davis' So What just bored me to tears. Horace Silver's Song For My Father was the best of the bunch, or rather the only one which I found really attractive on the whole, with a clear-cut and cool idea yet plain in it's presentation. I award that a whopping 9 out of 10. John Coltrane's Favorite Things - I'm a musical buff and I greatly prefer the original Rodgers song. Finally, Duke Ellington's Take the Train - that was just an atrocious experience. Never again.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

certain points you've mentioning are interesting, others are completely crazy to me, but it's interesting as a experiment (I could make some considerations later). If you want to continue this little game of reviews I can put some more, this time with some more dark tunes and well, a bit more different things:

Jackie McLean - Love and hate





Lee Wiley - Manhattan





Sun Ra - There are other worlds





Stan Tracey - Starless





Lorez Alexandria - Baltimore Oriole





Pat Metheny - Last train home





Duke Ellington - Hearsay





Hot Lips Page - I won't be here long





Red Norvo - Dance of the octopus





Janet Lawson - So High





Andrew Hill - Flea Flop





Soil & Pimps sessions - Summer goddess





Miles Davis - Footprints





Morphine - Whisper





Lenny Breau - Visions





Carmen McRae - Dear Ruby





Jane Ira Bloom - Most distant galaxy





Ran Blake - Sort life of Barbara Monk





Eric Dolphy - Hat and beard





Lucy Reed - Lazy Afternoon





Dizzy Gillespie - Lorraine





George Shearing - I'll remember April





Tadd Dameron - Fontainebleau





Linda Woodson - Bluesette





Albert Ayler - Love Cry





Wallace Roney - In her family





Spring Heel Jack - Double cross





Lester Young - These foolish things





Horace Silver - Nutville





Teddy Charles - Margo


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> It seems that I'm always more interested in certain musicians than in certain genres. If I'm on the same wavelength with Elton John, Billy Joel or Ennio Morricone, I would like then even their jazzy stuff, probably because they actually don't think like jazz musicians who play/compose only jazz.
> For example, this is pop song, but influenced by jazz. It even has a 2 trumpet solo parts by jazz musician Freddie Hubbard. And I really love that song including trumpet solo. I like this song even more than Steely Dan's music by which this was actually inspired. Some solos work for me, especially if they're part of something larger, but if there's only 10 minute frantic solo without some strong base, I can't stand it. I can't point finger at why exactly this trumpet solo works for me, while many other solos in jazz music do not.


I like the song and the solo is nice, but I struggle to see any difference with a solo over a jazz piece.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Gargamel said:


> After hearing all of the pieces there, I had pretty much the same emotional response to them as you did. I kinda enjoyed the first Miles Davis piece which was short and sweet. Usually I associate each piece with only some particular feature which interests, such as the piano playing; the I heard the Brubeck piece like I hear most music by Nirvana - in that I wouldn't have much fondness of the music if it weren't for the drumming. Miles Davis' So What just bored me to tears. Horace Silver's Song For My Father was the best of the bunch, or rather the only one which I found really attractive on the whole, with a clear-cut and cool idea yet plain in it's presentation. I award that a whopping 9 out of 10. John Coltrane's Favorite Things - I'm a musical buff and I greatly prefer the original Rodgers song. Finally, Duke Ellington's Take the Train - that was just an atrocious experience. Never again.


Yes, 'Song For My Father' is the best - the most exciting and fun listening experience for sure. Brubeck's 'Take Five' is also really good. The worst experience so far was Coltrane's 'Giant Steps'.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I like the song and the solo is nice, but I struggle to see any difference with a solo over a jazz piece.


It's much shorter, maybe it also has faster/more vibrant rhythm than usual and it's part of larger story, so it really works for me.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I'll listen to the rest of your suggestions. 
But I'm starting to think that, no matter if it's longer improvisation or shorter piece, if improvisation doesn't have some meaningful flow of melody or some interesting changes/parts, I probably won't like it. If it's mostly improvised live, then it doesn't surprise me that most of the time it won't sound like something that is well thought out during the composing process.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The thing about a lot of current jazz is that almost every musician who grew up in the past 60 years has been exposed to modern pop music from the Beatles onward. As was mentioned it's the personality of the artist and their music that is the attraction, not the genre. I have no interest in generic jazz. I like to hear a personal sound coming through the instrument or collective ensemble. Milt Jackson had a unique sound as did his group, The Modern Jazz Quartet. But there is no mistaking the difference between that quartet and the Pat Metheny Group. It's obvious that the later grew up influenced by pop and rock music even if the solos are based on the jazz vocabulary.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

There isn't any thinking going on during an improvised solo. But the best soloists are the good listeners. Same for the drummer and everyone else in the group.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Part 1:

Jackie McLean - Love and hate




Nice atmosphere with that intro/outro, solos are so-so. It lacks something. 4.5/10

Lee Wiley - Manhattan




Typical old-style mainstream pop-jazz song. It has its charm. Derivative and simple, yet likeable melody, good trumpet and piano solos. 5.5/10

Sun Ra - There are other worlds




Way too bizarre for me. Those synths too... it almost sounds like some experimental work by Vangelis. I appreciate experimental stuff for purposes that mostly don't mean anything to me as a listener. 3/10.

Stan Tracey - Starless




Great opening/closing. Mysterious and dark piece... really interesting sax solo - one of better so far. I like it. It reminds me slightly of Twin Peaks. This really could have been longer, yet it isn't. I've listened to it twice. 8/10

Lorez Alexandria - Baltimore Oriole




Although it is a linear song without a development, it's still really fun. 6.5/10

Pat Metheny - Last train home




This is hardly jazz like starthrower already mentioned. It's improvised throughout, but I really don't hear it as jazz. I guess that improvisation is part of many musical styles that could be also influenced by jazz, blues, classical music etc. It's a relaxing and melancholic piece. It reminds me somehow of 80's music by Mark Knopfler and Chris Rea. Never heard it before. I think it's a fine piece of music. Maybe too long. 7/10

Duke Ellington - Hearsay




Like watching an old black and white film with some surreal experimental twists. Not bad. 6/10

Hot Lips Page - I won't be here long




Simple and fine song. 5.5/10


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Part 2:

Red Norvo - Dance of the octopus




It's ok. So so. 4.5/10

Janet Lawson - So High




So, she is using her voice almost as sax improvisation. It's not even that bad, but too frantic... some interesting and some annoying moments. The name of this piece should be 'Neurological problem'. 4/10

Andrew Hill - Flea Flop




Even though vibraphone, piano and that funny bass are much more tolerable than sax/trumpet, the story is still the same. Typical jazz with endless noodling - it's the story that never started and it will never end.. it's simply there. Now I realized - jazz is like God! 3.5/10

Soil & Pimps sessions - Summer goddess




Beginning is pretty annoying. Good playing, inspired at times, but still, this style is not for me. 4/10

Miles Davis - Footprints




They bought a new instruments and said: "let's see how they play and if they need some adjustments". Then Miles smiled and said: "Let's record it... people will love it". You have been trolled by Miles Smiles  1.5/10

Morphine - Whisper




Not bad. It sounds once again like something from a David Lynch movie. Not exactly my type of music, but decent. 6.5/10

Lenny Breau - Visions




It's like a sketch of something that could become with time. I really don't know what to think about it, not too clear sound either. Not impressed. 4.5/10

Carmen McRae - Dear Ruby




Good vocal, but song is boring and lifeless.... derivative, pastiche, lame etc. Simply no. 2.5/10

Jane Ira Bloom - Most distant galaxy




Interesting ambiental jazz piece. Though, I can't stand high sax notes. Isn't this the same instrument that Kenny G plays?  5.5/10
I still find this interesting. If there are similar pieces to this one, feel free to share.

Ran Blake - Sort life of Barbara Monk




This is going nowhere on purpose. Directionless music with some really interesting bits. Not sure what to think about it. Many things are actually happening here. I really appreciate the musical construction of this, yet I'm confused and don't know what I feel. At the same time it's interesting and challenging to listen to, yet it's still somehow an unlikeable piece. Very confusing. It's something that I should listen more times to form opinion, so for now it's 5.5/10


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Okay... Time to bring out the big guns... No holds barred... Take no prisoners...

If this bagpipe swing number from Gunhild Carling doesn't convert you into a jazz fan then nothing will...


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Just to chime in, Nikola, you may be interested in the subgenre Dark Jazz which feature the slow tempo and the noir atmosphere that is featured on the jazz pieces that you like.

Here is a list of albums falling under the genre and influenced by it ranked by overall user preference. Also Twin Peak's soundtrack which you repeatedly stated that you like is at the top of the list!

Hope that I was helpful.

The subgenre was influenced by Miles Davis' _Ascenseur pour l'échafaud_





And Angelo Badalamenti work on Twin Peaks.





Bohren & der Club of Gore and The Kilimanjaro Darkjazz Ensemble was one that largely created the style.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Conrad2 said:


> Just to chime in, Nikola, you may be interested in the sub genre Dark Jazz...


Dark Jazz? Silly name.


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Red Terror said:


> Dark Jazz? Silly name.


Also known as Doom Jazz and Noir Jazz. The name is not that imaginative or good, I admit. Not my favorite jazz subgenre, but perhaps nikola may enjoy it.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Deleted a post that I spent 15 minutes on - Conrad2 got there before me as I was wasting time trying to translate this page -

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Jazz

"Dark Jazz, Horror Jazz, Jazz Noir oder Doom Jazz sind Bezeichnungen für ein Musikgenre, das popkulturell häufig als Spielform des Jazz besprochen wird. Den Bezeichnungen werden meist instrumental orientierte Musikstücke zugeordnet, die Elemente aus Lounge-Musik, Jazz und Ambient miteinander verbinden, wobei eine ausgeprägte Tendenz zur Filmmusik mit düsterer und surreal-psychedelischer Atmosphäre besteht, und das Jazzelement eher eine zurückhaltende Rolle einnimmt. Der Stil entstand in den 1990er Jahren im Kontext des Extreme Metals."

Seems pretty straightforward to me...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Sunburst Finish said:


> Okay... Time to bring out the big guns... No holds barred... Take no prisoners...
> 
> If this bagpipe swing number from Gunhild Carling doesn't convert you into a jazz fan then nothing will...


Rufus Harley was the original jazz bagpipe player. He recorded for Atlantic.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Conrad2 said:


> Just to chime in, Nikola, you may be interested in the subgenre Dark Jazz which feature the slow tempo and the noir atmosphere that is featured on the jazz pieces that you like.
> 
> Here is a list of albums falling under the genre and influenced by it ranked by overall user preference. Also Twin Peak's soundtrack which you repeatedly stated that you like is at the top of the list!
> 
> ...


I'm big Twin Peaks soundtrack fan for over 30 years 
I also have many outtakes and variations from TP soundtrack and all other soundtracks from Twin Peaks. I really love the style of Badalamenti and his combination of dark synth music, sad ballads and dark jazz he made for TP. 
This other video I'll give a listen.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Rufus Harley was the original jazz bagpipe player. He recorded for Atlantic.


His Wikipedia entry states - "His career included performances with many major figures including John Coltrane, Dizzy Gillespie and Dexter Gordon."

I'm not certain if they mean that he sat in with them during a live performance or if he was a sideman on one of their recordings.

Bagpiping I know quite well...

Jazz I know fairly well...

Jazz bagpiping? - Not so much...


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Sunburst Finish said:


> Okay... Time to bring out the big guns... No holds barred... Take no prisoners...
> 
> If this bagpipe swing number from Gunhild Carling doesn't convert you into a jazz fan then nothing will...


Despite the strange selection of the instrument, this is pretty good, but doesn't it sound more like blues than jazz?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I wonder which has more "haters": Jazz or Richard Wagner?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

There you go.. this is my jazz composition :lol:
Ok, it's not jazz at all, but it's probably 'jazzy'... is that the right word?
I'm not a musician, so...

https://mp3.fastupload.co/files/1621198467


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I wonder which has more "haters": Jazz or Richard Wagner?


Neither - "Contemporary Classical" has them both beat by a country mile.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Gargamel said:


> For a long time, I've regretted my lack of jazz knowledge. But here's the problem: jazz doesn't do anything for me. I can somehow relate with almost any other popular music genre. I really love some jazz versions of Gershwin songs, but that's it. Jazz carries for me the technical finesse of classical music, minus the wow-factor. It doesn't take much more than Schumann or Mahler to move me. At other times, I find that Carter/Babbitt/Boulez can satisfy all my extasies in terms of adrenaline. (Sorry, Cecil Taylor.) But I really believe jazz has a lot to give me, especially in playing some instruments. (I play guitar and some piano.)
> 
> Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.


Luv your nickname lol

Im not a big fan of jazz or brass music in general but I like Gershwin and some other ''stylish'' users of wind instruments...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*********** no comment ***********


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Sunburst Finish said:


> Deleted a post that I spent 15 minutes on - Conrad2 got there before me as I was wasting time trying to translate this page -
> 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Jazz
> 
> ...


Bing translator is your friend.

Dark jazz, horror jazz, jazz noir or doom jazz are names for a music genre that is often discussed as a form of jazz in pop culture. The names are usually assigned to instrumentally oriented pieces of music that combine elements of lounge music, jazz and ambient, with a pronounced tendency to film music with a dark and surreal psychedelic atmosphere, and the jazz element playing a more restrained role. The style originated in the 1990s in the context of extreme metal."


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I would say rather than often discussed it is rarely, if ever, discussed by those that know or love jazz. I have been listening to jazz for 54 years and today was my introduction to the sub-genre ‘dark jazz’. You’d be better off with ‘dark beer!’

There is a lot of tosh on Wikipedia.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> I would say rather than often discussed it is rarely, if ever, discussed by those that know or love jazz. I have been listening to jazz for 54 years and today was my introduction to the sub-genre 'dark jazz'. You'd be better off with 'dark beer!'
> 
> There is a lot of tosh on Wikipedia.


They're tracing the genesis of dark jazz/jazz noir to Miles Davis' soundtrack to the noir film -

_"Ascenseur pour l'échafaud"._






Jazz noir is essentially the musical equivalent or expression of the sub-genre "film noir".

And after all, Miles was indeed the "Prince of Darkness" and so you have that reference tied in with the composition of the soundtrack.

Note: Miles Davis as the "Prince of Darkness" is not to be confused with Christopher Lee as "Dracula, Prince of Darkness"...

Apparently, from what I understand, they're two entirely different people...

Ya learn somethin' new every day...


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> I would say rather than often discussed it is rarely, if ever, discussed by those that know or love jazz. I have been listening to jazz for 54 years and today was my introduction to the sub-genre 'dark jazz'. You'd be better off with 'dark beer!'
> 
> There is a lot of tosh on Wikipedia.


"Dark jazz" is also new to me, I came across it via Soundcloud recently, and it seem to be a relativity a new development. Although, it's not my cup of tea as I greatly preferred free style, modal, or "cool" jazz subgenre, nikola indicated that he hasn't enjoyed these as he seems to prefer little improvisation and a dark or noir atmosphere, where he use Twin Peaks as a prime example of what he like. This subgenre was largely influenced by Twin Peak's soundtrack so I was interested in knowing what he thinks of it.

Given that this subgenre is not popular, rightfully or wrongly, there isn't a lot of good sources on it, however I manage to find a leaflet  of a performance of the subgenre at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. 
Here is a sample of the performed music on Bandcamp.

To me, this subgenre doesn't inspire or move me like other works of jazz, but every person have their own taste, so I thought it would worth mentioning the subgenre given that nikola like TP.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Writers and critics need things to talk about so they invent a lot of frivolous labels.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Complex art/music will always have plenty of detractors. Unlike most popular music, both Classical and Jazz often demand something of the listener, but it's rather foolish to compare them; they are different genres with different aims. That said, there is also much fusion of various musics taking place. I'd heartily recommend the ECM label to anyone who's looking for Jazz that is "classically" influenced.

Jazz encompasses such a massive array of styles and sub-genres that it would be quite difficult to find something one doesn't like.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Hmm, the "wow-factor" that Gargamel mentioned. Consider the rhythmically-STIFF, almost primitive playing of virtually every instrumentalist, before Louis Armstrong came along (and Bix Beiderbecke) ... and compare the CONTRAST. It's almost like night and day. Then, along came Charlie Parker, and his brilliant improvs that succeeded the best of the Swing Era musicians. On a more subtle note was the extraordinary originality of Lester Young, either with Billie Holiday or with Count Basie. Who needs dark jazz?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Red Terror said:


> Complex art/music will always have plenty of detractors. Unlike most popular music, both Classical and Jazz often demand something of the listener, but it's rather foolish to compare them; they are different genres with different aims. That said, there is also much fusion of various musics taking place. I'd heartily recommend the ECM label to anyone who's looking for Jazz that is "classically" influenced.
> 
> Jazz encompasses such a massive array of styles and sub-genres that it would be quite difficult to find something one doesn't like.


I agree with your post. When I was first getting into Jazz, the ECM label represented a sound that immediately appealed to me. It took me longer to get into what I call "*Classic Jazz*" which is different than classical-jazz.

Classic Jazz for me is the early New Orleans style, *Louis Armstrong*, *Sidney Bechet*, *Joe Oliver*, *Bunk Johnson*, *Jelly Roll Morton* - the Jazz from the 20s and early 30s. The *Armstrong Hot Five and Seven* recordings are landmarks in American music. They contain the essence of the Classic Jazz style in its purest form.

One problem with introducing this music to someone is the corruption of "Dixieland" music, which is a derivative style, mainly promoted to tourists. *Duke Ellington*'s Blanton-Webster band is the next Classic Jazz style. Duke Ellington's bands produced high quality Jazz throughout his entire career. *Count Basie'*s bands on Decca and Columbia/Vocalian that featured *Lester Young*. Great stuff.

After this period, *Bebop* is the next great Jazz style, *Charlie Parker*, *Thelonious Monk*, *Dizzy Gillespie*. The *Hard Bop* style which basically can be summed up with the Blue Note records from the late 50s to the mid-60s. Almost any record on Blue Note, Prestige, Riverside are fine examples of Hard Bop, and some of the best Jazz ever. Many great bands. Also the Impulse! label had many great bands not least of which were *Charles Mingus* and *John Coltrane*, *Archie Shepp*, and others - *Oliver Nelson* _Blues and the Abstract Truth _was a great record.

The *Miles Davis*'s quintets from the 50s (the Coltrane quintet) and 60s (the *Wayne Shorter *quintet) - then his early electronic period, late 60s to mid 70s. The *John Coltrane* classic quartet with *Elvin Jones*, *McCoy Tyner *and *Jimmy Garrison*. The *Ornette Coleman *classic quartet with *Don Cherry*, *Charlie Haden* and either *Ed Blackwell* or *Billy Higgins*.

Basically, this is the Jazz that means the most to me. I know a couple of posters in this thread have said how much of this music is not for them, and they've made some derogatory comments about it. This is nothing but a statement of their taste and says nothing about the music itself.

Our taste is our taste - the music is something else, not defined by any one person's response to it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

89Koechel said:


> Hmm, the "wow-factor" that Gargamel mentioned. Consider the rhythmically-STIFF, almost primitive playing of virtually every instrumentalist, before Louis Armstrong came along (and Bix Beiderbecke) ... and compare the CONTRAST. It's almost like night and day. Then, along came Charlie Parker, and his brilliant improvs that succeeded the best of the Swing Era musicians. On a more subtle note was the extraordinary originality of Lester Young, either with Billie Holiday or with Count Basie. Who needs dark jazz?


Nice post. **************


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Thank you, SanAntone! ... and I think you EMBELLISHED and ELABORATED on it, in your own. Hmm, that's a bit like jazz, isn't it? Also, glad you like the late Oliver Nelson, and his "Blues and the Abstract Truth". Well, there's another Impulse with Nelson at the helm - "The Spirit of '67" - with the great, craggy improvs of clarinetist Pee Wee Russell, in one of his last recordings. Russell was consistently-inventive from his days, as a friend of the aforementioned Beiderbecke, up to the last.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Red Terror - "... it would be quite difficult to find something that one doesn't like". Hmm, normally, would agree with you ... except for a certain trend that's cropped-up, in the last, few decades ... and it's one that has turned potential "friends" of jazz into disbelievers. In other words, there are so MANY LONG sequences of solos, either on records or in concert, and I've heard them, both types. Often these solos seem to ramble on, or have someone trying to emulate Ornette Coleman, or others of the post-WW2 avant-garde, to the point where I can see (in concert) people starting to melt-away, wondering how LONG this exercise will go on ... if you know what I mean. Also, for a LONG time there's been a tendency for certain jazzmen, esp. on saxophone, to use the "blueprint", so to speak, of Charlie Parker's solos and his phrasings... maybe at the expense of their own originality (such as the latter might be). The late, great jazz critic of The New Yorker - Whitney Balliett - noticed this trend DECADES ago, and it seems to persist, nowadays ... and probably in the future. ... Anyway, thanks for mentioning the ECM label; it's a very good one.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

What's the point of listening to jazz if you don't like the soloing? That's what jazz players do. They improvise. There are many great alto players who don't sound like Charlie Parker. And I haven't heard any who sound like Ornette. Paul Desmond, and Lee Konitz didn't sound like Parker. Kenny Garrett doesn't either. And there's Sonny Simmons, Arthur Blythe, Julius Hemphill, and Tim Berne. The players that bug me are the white guys who sound like Michael Brecker. That can be annoying. A very jocular approach with a lot of gratuitous notes and scale running.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Sunburst Finish said:


> They're tracing the genesis of dark jazz/jazz noir to Miles Davis' soundtrack to the noir film -
> 
> _"Ascenseur pour l'échafaud"._


I don't think it's the first example though, I posted Nightmare of Artie Shaw few pages ago, and that is much earlier than Ascenseur pour l'echafaud, altough it didn't have the more spacey-ambient sound of the Davis album.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

89Koechel said:


> Thank you, SanAntone! ... and I think you EMBELLISHED and ELABORATED on it, in your own. Hmm, that's a bit like jazz, isn't it? Also, glad you like the late Oliver Nelson, and his "Blues and the Abstract Truth". Well, there's another Impulse with Nelson at the helm - "The Spirit of '67" - with the great, craggy improvs of clarinetist Pee Wee Russell, in one of his last recordings. Russell was consistently-inventive from his days, as a friend of the aforementioned Beiderbecke, up to the last.


great to know there's another fan of Russell. Astonishing improviser, I think he's quite... if not underrated, at least incredibly overlooked these days, but he's really one of the true giants.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Part 3:

Eric Dolphy - Hat and beard




This is kinda fun... and funny. Solos are at some parts hilarious. It gets even more interesting in the 2nd half. Surprisingly, I like it because of that. Pretty much creative piece. 7.5/10

Lucy Reed - Lazy Afternoon




Beautiful vocal... dreamy and mysterious song. It reminds me of Ella Fitzgerald's song 'Azure' that I really like. 7.5/10

Dizzy Gillespie - Lorraine




An interesting piece. Nice melody. It's decent. 6/10

George Shearing - I'll remember April




Lounge jazz is so sterile and boring. Nice playing, zero anything else. I even prefer my 'jazz' over something like this :lol: 3.5/10
EDIT: on 2nd listening I tolerate it more, but still... there are so many pieces out there that sound exactly like this.

Tadd Dameron - Fontainebleau




It's ok. Nothing special though. 4.5/10

Linda Woodson - Bluesette




Good piano parts, but that's it. Song is nothing special. 4/10

Albert Ayler - Love Cry




Yodeling? Or at least he tries it :lol: This is kinda really weird experiment and pretty much unlikeable. 2/10

Wallace Roney - In her family




Interesting atmosphere that is somewhere between corny and mysterious. It's ok. 5.5/10


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

nikola said:


> Yodeling? Or at least he tries it :lol: This is kinda really weird experiment and pretty much unlikeable. 2/10


Yodeling? - Did someone mention yodeling? - Finally! -

A chance to kick out the jams!

Let's rock this house down!

At the 1:30 mark Melanie channels Louis Armstrong - it's worth the price of admission alone.

WARNING - This is an example of "Dark Yodeling" and if you didn't care much for dark jazz you're probably going to like dark yodeling even less but if nothing else, Melanie Oesch is pretty easy on the eyes.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Sunburst Finish said:


> Yodeling? - Did someone mention yodeling? - Finally! -
> 
> A chance to kick out the jams!
> 
> ...


There's some German and Austro-Hungarian blood in me, so I tolerate pretty well yodeling and I actually like this 

But listen to this guy... now THAT'S what I call REAL JAZZ :lol:


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I wonder who's going to be the one who starts the

"I Really Hate Yodeling" thread?

This is an example of "noir jazz yodeling"...

For the record - Word of honor - I'm not trying to wind anyone up but yes, I am indeed attempting to inject a bit of levity into the proceedings.... "Noir jazz yodeling"" doesn't actually exist.. although it should...

I genuinely like country yodeling...


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This is an example of "ambient jazz yodeling" -






I didn't know that Jewel had a set of pipes like this - she always seemed kind of on the thin and whispy side...

Ya learn somethin' new every day...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Part 3:
> 
> Eric Dolphy - Hat and beard
> 
> ...


the fact that you enjoyed Dolphy is the most unexpected thing so far (I think you dismissed his playing on he flute on the Oliver Nelson tune). 
I could object about many other of your reviews but I'm glad that you've managed to find something interesting in some of those pieces (especially in quite abstract music like Out to lunch).
Since you mentioned that you'd like to hear what Elton John would do with jazz, check out this guy, is a jazz musician who studied classical music but he also makes pop music (this song it reminds me of Beach boys with a psychedelic touch)






That Azure song of Ella Fitzgerald is a composition of Ellington





he has a good amount of those "blue" tunes (he used to refer to colors a lot) slow and atmospheric tunes. This is another one and of his most beautiful blues in my opinion


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Sunburst Finish said:


> I wonder who's going to be the one who starts the
> 
> "I Really Hate Yodeling" thread?
> 
> ...


are you sure it's the correct video? Because this to me is country music


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Sunburst Finish said:


> This is an example of "ambient jazz yodeling" -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much of her own insipid material doesn't showcase her vocal chops.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> are you sure it's the correct video? Because this to me is country music


Slim Whitman was a country artist, but Western Swing, a style of country music, is jazz informed. Jimmie Rodgers is usually credited with introducing yodeling to pre-country music.






The blue yodel songs are a series of thirteen songs written and recorded by Jimmie Rodgers during the period from 1927 to his death in May 1933.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Slim Whitman was a country artist, but Western Swing, a style of country music, is jazz informed. Jimmie Rodgers is usually credited with introducing yodeling to pre-country music.


I know Jimmie Rodgers and I know a bit of western swing, but that song in particular does not have any element of jazz. But maybe Sunburst finish was a bit ironic about that, I don't know


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Maybe all music is jazz under different names... that means that we all love jazz :lol:


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> I know Jimmie Rodgers and I know a bit of western swing, but that song in particular does not have any element of jazz. But maybe Sunburst finish was a bit ironic about that, I don't know


Yeah, I was unclear since I didn't mean to imply that Slim Whitman was Western Swing, especially in that clip. I just threw that in as an afterthought, relating Jazz and C&W.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

norman bates said:


> I know Jimmie Rodgers and I know a bit of western swing, but that song in particular does not have any element of jazz. But maybe Sunburst finish was a bit ironic about that, I don't know


This is a heavily moderated thread so I have to be careful about what I say about a particular member without violating the Terms of Service but let me just say that I, personally, would be very skeptical about anything that Sunny says about anything...

He probably shouldn't be considered a reliable or eve remotely trustworthy source of information - most of what I've read that he's written somehow seems ludicrously inconceivable - borderline preposterous - almost as if he's just completely making it up as he goes along...

Sunny, despite his name, is a shady shady character....

Believe him at your own peril...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Sunburst Finish said:


> This is an example of "ambient jazz yodeling" -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jewel Kilcher was raised near Homer, Alaska, where she grew up singing and yodeling as a duo with her father, a local musician. But it ain't Jazz.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> the fact that you enjoyed Dolphy is the most unexpected thing so far (I think you dismissed his playing on he flute on the Oliver Nelson tune).
> I could object about many other of your reviews but I'm glad that you've managed to find something interesting in some of those pieces (especially in quite abstract music like Out to lunch).
> Since you mentioned that you'd like to hear what Elton John would do with jazz, check out this guy, is a jazz musician who studied classical music but he also makes pop music (this song it reminds me of Beach boys with a psychedelic touch)
> 
> ...


Bruno really reminds me too of The Beach Boys.

I think I knew that 'Azure' is Duke's song, but I probably forgot.

I found this song lately and I really like it. I don't know if it has elements of jazz, but it certainly isn't typical pop song. It doesn't sound 'likeable' to many listeners, but I think it's very creative for a pop song.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Bruno really reminds me too of The Beach Boys.
> 
> I think I knew that 'Azure' is Duke's song, but I probably forgot.
> 
> I found this song lately and I really like it. I don't know if it has elements of jazz, but it certainly isn't typical pop song. It doesn't sound 'likeable' to many listeners, but I think it's very creative for a pop song.


I like what I've heard of her, by the way her uncle Tuck Andress knows more than a thing of two about the genre


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Yodeling? Leon Thomas!


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

starthrower - (your 23:25, Sunday night) - Fine post! ... but I meant that there were MANY ... not ALL ... who fell under the influence of Parker. Thanks for mentioning Konitz, Paul Desmond ("tone like a dry martini" - maybe you've heard of that); also, there was the San Francisco altoman - John Handy. He made a few excellent recordings for Columbia/late '60s, but I think he's gone, by now. Also, I think Archie Sheep emulated Ornette, and maybe there were some others, on the old ESP label. ... Of course, many of us LOVE the jazz soloing, but sometimes ... not when it runs on for 15, 25 minutes or more ... John Coltrane being one of the exceptions. Thanks.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

norman bates - (Pee Wee Russell) - Oh, yeah, man ... Pee Wee was one of the true jazz ORIGINALS, from almost it's beginnings. It's usually Benny Goodman, or Artie Shaw (great technician) who'd get "the ink"/recognition in the old days, or maybe even these (days). Did you know that Lester Young made a few, great recordings on clarinet, also? These were from the "Kansas City" Sessions (1938). Whitney Balliett (The New Yorker) once described Lester's clarinet tone as "lemony"; probably the perfect word to use, and Lester was as-inventive on clarinet as he was, on tenor sax. Thanks!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It's funny because Coltrane is the one guy I don't want to listen to soloing for 15 minutes. Some listeners enjoy hearing all those frantic sheets of notes as Coltrane does his musical searching but I don't enjoy it. I prefer more space and understatement. I'd rather listen to Archie Shepp.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

norman bates said:


> I like what I've heard of her, by the way her uncle Tuck Andress knows more than a thing of two about the genre


I don't know about her uncle, but I really dislike her music.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

89Koechel said:


> norman bates - (Pee Wee Russell) - Oh, yeah, man ... Pee Wee was one of the true jazz ORIGINALS, from almost it's beginnings. It's usually Benny Goodman, or Artie Shaw (great technician) who'd get "the ink"/recognition in the old days, or maybe even these (days). Did you know that Lester Young made a few, great recordings on clarinet, also? These were from the "Kansas City" Sessions (1938). Whitney Balliett (The New Yorker) once described Lester's clarinet tone as "lemony"; probably the perfect word to use, and Lester was as-inventive on clarinet as he was, on tenor sax. Thanks!


yes, I've heard those sessions. Lester Young was amazing even on the clarinet. I've never been a great fan of Benny Goodman (not that he does not have some very good music though). I think that guys like Pee Wee and Lester Young were musicians on a different level, as I've said, true giants.
Even if Goodman was considered a virtuoso and Pee Wee was often derided for his technique.

Another one with a very interesting career has been Tony Scott, his discography is full of surprises and original experiments that deserve more attention.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Red Terror said:


> I don't know about her uncle, but I really dislike her music.


I don't know her career that well, I would not say that she blows my mind or that she's one of my favorites, but she's an interesting guitarist for what I've heard.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

Been listening to this one alot. I feel that there is discourse going on, with every instrument talking on their turns, and not just one guy ******* like Coltrane or two guys *******.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Gargamel said:


> Been listening to this one alot. I feel that there is discourse going on, with every instrument talking on their turns, and not just one guy ******* like Coltrane or two guys *******.


This is 5 guys *******.


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

No, this is 5 (?) guys *******.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Gargamel said:


> Been listening to this one alot. I feel that there is discourse going on, with every instrument talking on their turns, and not just one guy ******* like Coltrane or two guys *******.


well to me this is one of the absolute masterpieces of jazz. The tune (which is a minor blues, with a very strange turnaround, even if it feels it's something else) is a classic and one of my favorite tunes composed by Wayne Shorter, who's one of the greatest jazz composers, right there with Ellington and Monk for importance. The drummer Tony Williams is doing crazy things with polyrhthms, and to me everything has a dark african feel. If you like this, check out the albums of the late sixties of Miles Davis (E.S.P, Nefertiti, Sorcerer, Filles de Kilimanjaro, Circle in the round, Miles in the Sky, and maybe also some classic from the early electric period like Bitches brew).

here's a few other tracks from those albums:

Sanctuary





Iris





Nefertiti





Circle in the round





you could also check out this other version of Footprints. Onestly I don't like the piano solo there, but Von Freeman on sax is great:





(besides that, I usually use the term ******* for people showing his chops for no other reason that impress people with chops, and to me that's definitely not the case for any of those works, Free jazz included, even if I'm not a fan of that album myself)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Nikola, a few more for you, if you're still interested:

Helen Merrill - Black Is The Color Of My True Love's Hair





Julie London - Cry me a river





Abbey Lincoln - Straight ahead





Jack Teagarden - Don't smoke in bed





George Russell - A lonely place





Miles Davis - Generique (someone rightly suggested Ascenseur as one of the most important works for what now is called dark jazz, this is a short tune from that album)





Morphine - You look like rain





Lester Young - These Foolish things


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

*Moderator's note: The 'w' word has come to our attention. I've edited some posts above while a decision is made about whether it will be added to the list of censorable words.*


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The W word? I guess I've lost track of all the censored words here?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> *Moderator's note: The 'w' word has come to our attention. I've edited some posts above while a decision is made about whether it will be added to the list of censorable words.*





starthrower said:


> The W word? I guess I've lost track of all the censored words here?


*Could you give us a list of those censored words?*


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

W for white, maybe? - 

There may be some sort of trolling/baiting prohibition about discussing white guys in a jazz thread.

Note: the above statement is not to be taken literally - it's an example of the use of "irony".

Note to self: Avoid the use of irony in the future... It's just too disheartening...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Let's not turn this into a guess the forbidden word game. And imagine if we would put a list here, what that list would look like. See?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

From now on, it's Olfgang Amadeus Mozart, Ludig Van Beethoven and Richard Agner.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> The W word? I guess I've lost track of all the censored words here?


I onder hat kind of ord as that


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> The W word? I guess I've lost track of all the censored words here?


Yeah, I have no idea what the word is either, so I don't know what to avoid. Ironically, this kind of censorship brings more attention to it than if the posts had been left alone.

Judging by the context, ****** might be a contender.

Hah - I guessed right. Think of the English term for a self-pleasurer.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

White is not a derogatory term. And in discussing the history and music of jazz there are white and black bands, and leaders. The over zealous monitoring and censorship here borders on the ridiculous.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

starthrower said:


> White is not a derogatory term. And in discussing the history and music of jazz there are white and black bands, and leaders. The over zealous monitoring and censorship here borders on the ridiculous.


It's rather obvious that white is not a censored word on this site. Nobody even suggested that, except as a joke.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

pianozach said:


> *Could you give us a list of those censored words?*


It would just look like this:

****
******
*******
****
****
****


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> It's rather obvious that white is not a censored word on this site. Nobody even suggested that, except as a joke.


In all seriousness, Art Rock, you have my profound and grateful thanks for having posted -

"Nobody even suggested that, except as a joke"

It's beginning to become too discouraging - too disheartening -

to continue trying to write with a voice that apparently no one else can hear.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

norman bates said:


> well to me this is one of the absolute masterpieces of jazz.


So Footprints is its name? I used to listen to jazz radio in the '70s, and they played this one constantly. I just realized I never knew what it was called.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Spring Heel Jack - Double cross




Dark and experimental, almost like David Lynch/Badalamenti, but mostly lame execution. Some nice change into something scary after the 3rd minute. 3.5/10

Lester Young - These foolish things




Kinda boring and lazy sound. Good for insomnia. 3.5/10

Horace Silver - Nutville




Certainly not good as 'Song for My Father', but still better than most of the rest I've heard. Great playing, but not much variation. 5.5/10

Teddy Charles - Margo




Nice, Melancholic. Ok 5.5/10

Helen Merrill - Black Is The Color Of My True Love's Hair




This is very good, but it doesn't sound to me like jazz... more like something from Leonard Bernstein. 8/10

Julie London - Cry me a river




It's ok. Simple little dreamy song and nice jazz arrangements. Nothing special though 5.5/10

Abbey Lincoln - Straight ahead




Good vocal, pretty much boring song, weird melody, some weird notes... 3.5/10

Jack Teagarden - Don't smoke in bed




Vocal is kinda strange, interesting mood, almost like Gershwin's 'Summertime' or even something from James Bond at times. Nice, yet not strong enough. 5.5/10

George Russell - A lonely place




Pretty much meaningless and annoying experiment. 2/10

Miles Davis - Generique (someone rightly suggested Ascenseur as one of the most important works for what now is called dark jazz, this is a short tune from that album)




Nice atmosphere. I should listen to the whole album. Even though this is somehow closer to Twin Peaks, I still think it's very hard for anyone to match Badalamenti's songwriting abilities. Interesting atmosphere, but I'd like more musical substance here. 5.5/10

Morphine - You look like rain




Ok, but dry and not interesting. 4/10

Lester Young - These Foolish things




It's ok... it works pretty much only like a sleeping pill. 4.5/10.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> So Footprints is its name? I used to listen to jazz radio in the '70s, and they played this one constantly. I just realized I never knew what it was called.


yes, it's the most famous standard of those written by Shorter, so it's played a by a lot of musicians... and with a lot of not particularly good renditions I have to say.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)




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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> It's rather obvious that white is not a censored word on this site. Nobody even suggested that, except as a joke.


I won't bother trying to guess.


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## stone (Dec 10, 2016)

I've never taken to jazz either and I've listened to most of the heavily touted classics from the genre. Only form of jazz I really listen to is bossa nova, not sure if the purists consider that "real" jazz or not.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

stone said:


> I've never taken to jazz either and I've listened to most of the heavily touted classics from the genre. Only form of jazz I really listen to is bossa nova, not sure if the purists consider that "real" jazz or not.


Everything you like is not real jazz. The real jazz is the music that makes you scream in pain. Only extremely smart people are able to comprehend the beauty of pain.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Labels don't matter. Either do sarcastic comments falsely equivocating jazz with intellectual snobbery. Snobbery is all pervasive. Punk music fans can be snobs just like some art music enthusiasts. I love Bossa Nova and it's melodies and rhythms whether it features jazz soloing or not.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

It's just a joke. No need to be always so serious


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I've noticed it is often the "I hate ..." or "What are the worst ..." or "Who is the most overrated ..." threads which get the most activity. 

What does this say about TC?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> I've noticed it is often the "I hate ..." or "What are the worst ..." or "Who is the most overrated ..." threads which get the most activity.
> 
> What does this say about TC?


Negativity never fails to attract attention.
But in this case I'd say these guys hating jazz listen to more of it in a day than me in several years.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Azol said:


> Negativity never fails to attract attention.
> But in this case I'd say these guys hating jazz listen to more of it in a day than me in several years.


yes, at least I have to recognize that Nikola has listened a lot of music these days, which is not a thing everybody would do. And while he disliked a lot of it I think he has listened at least something that he appreciated to a certain degree... and maybe he would change his mind about something else in the future. Or not, but at the end of the day I find also interesting to see the reactions of people to music (especially music that I like), being negative or positive (I've always loved reading blindfold tests, this wasn't exactly a blindfold test but it was close to that idea). What I don't like are generalizations more at the beginning of the thread, those are quite useless onestly.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Let's continue with 'best jazz songs' playlist:





It starts kinda ineresting with an organ, then it turns into more typical jazz. Still, it's nice piece. Great organ playing. Main 'theme' reminds me of 'Ghost Riders in the Sky' if I'm not wrong. 6.5/10





Another KOB piece. This one ain't bad at all, but it's so long... Really not the music for me, but I can appreciate this. 5/10





Not good as 'Moanin' and also not much interesting. 4.5/10





Nice, yet kinda predictable blues. 5/10





It's ok, but really not for me. 4.5/10

Ok, I think I heard enough. For sure, there are some interesting and even great stuff. I could say that I really like cca 5% of what I heard and don't care much for the rest. It simply isn't music for me, but I still believe there will always be jazz pieces that I will like.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Mindblowing stuff. I wasn't aware this video was available (and in quite a good quality too) but YouTube all of the sudden offered me a recommendation.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

If you like complex harmonies and rhythms and enjoy the dialogue of players...then you will like Jazz. It is just a matter of finding that entry piece that clicks.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

This is actually better than majority of jazz I heard here. Why nobody shared it?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Who’s John Coltrane?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Who's John Coltrane?


He should be nobody important to you. You should listen to classical music.... and country here and there :lol:


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Finally real jazz! :lol: 
I'm right now in my bubbly foamy bathub listening to this... rose petals all around me... candles also... a glass of champagne in my hand.. I also automatically changed my sex while listening to this so I am a girl now


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

juliante said:


> If you like complex harmonies and rhythms and enjoy the dialogue of players...then you will like Jazz. *It is just a matter of finding that entry piece that clicks.*


I really agree! I got some great entry piece recommendations from Barbebleu and they have really worked. I've been listening to quite a lot of jazz recently and I'm enjoying it very much .


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

nikola said:


> Finally real jazz! :lol:
> I'm right now in my bubbly foamy bathub listening to this... rose petals all around me... candles also... a glass of champagne in my hand.. I also automatically changed my sex while listening to this so I am a girl now


Kenny G is to jazz what Herod was to child care.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Kenny G is to jazz what Herod was to child care.


Herod and child care-brilliant! :lol:


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Since jazz is also to music what Herod was to child care, it's great then that there's a Kenny G to take care of jazz :lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> This is actually better than majority of jazz I heard here. Why nobody shared it?


one reason is that he's from the same guy who made Giant steps who you seriously disliked (by the way, I kind of see your reason there, I've never been a huge fan of Giant steps). Altough I can see why you like it, it's probably his darkest dirge and you seem to resonate more with that kind of stuff.

by the way:
Mal Waldron & Jeanne Lee - Seagulls of Kristiansund





about Coltrane, he has a few other pieces you could check out, the most obvious one being Psalm, the last part of A love supreme (I seriously doubt you would enjoy the rest of the album though, considering your comments), which to me sounds a lot like Alabama.






And he has some other dark lyrical pieces on Crescent, like Wise One and Lonnie's Lament (both longer)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

before I forget, since you're a fan of Twin Peaks, check out Harlem Nocturne (altough it's possible you have heard it already, it's a quite famous song):






to me it sounds like something that Badalementi listened a lot to before writing his soundtrack


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> before I forget, since you're a fan of Twin Peaks, check out Harlem Nocturne (altough it's possible you have heard it already, it's a quite famous song):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, Badalamenti used a lot of 50's surf/r'n'r/jazz sounds like this for Twin Peaks... plus dark synth music and dream pop. It was kinda strange mix that worked well together to bring to life that unique Twin Peaks atmosphere.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Mal Waldron & Jeanne Lee - Seagulls of Kristiansund





Yes, that's kind of music that works better for me. I like piano chords here.
I'll listen the rest later.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yes, Badalamenti used a lot of 50's surf/r'n'r/jazz sounds like this for Twin Peaks... plus dark synth music and dream pop. It was kinda strange mix that worked well together to bring to life that unique Twin Peaks atmosphere.


here's another big favorite of mine a bit in that noirish vein, a weird blues with an unfortunate title (there's a lot of "noir jazz")


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> here's another big favorite of mine a bit in that noirish vein, a weird blues with an unfortunate title (there's a lot of "noir jazz")


Yes, bluesy/surf rock/jazzy piece... very nice. So far the most similar to Twin Peaks music. Great atmosphere.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

nikola said:


> Since jazz is also to music what Herod was to child care, it's great then that there's a Kenny G to take care of jazz :lol:


No, no. Baroque fulfils that criteria. It's the sort of music you want to hear in a silent film!:tiphat:


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

nikola said:


> Since jazz is also to music what Herod was to child care, it's great then that there's a Kenny G to take care of jazz :lol:


*
For someone that really hates jazz you must spend a lot of time hearing it, why not listen to jazz instead or to make it easier for your self just leave it alone and stick to what you do like*.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Dan Ante said:


> *
> For someone that really hates jazz you must spend a lot of time hearing it, why not listen to jazz instead or to make it easier for your self just leave it alone and stick to what you do like*.


Well, I have time for both - listening to jazz when I'm interested to find something that's worth listening to and listening to music that I do like.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

There you go... primal jazz:


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## MrNobody (Jun 9, 2021)

Check out Chick Corea. Hats off to a late scientologist but I find it pointless


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

What?? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

The concept of "hating jazz" is cracking me up.

My gawd, there are so MANY different, very different, types of jazz.

Myself, I'm not a fan of noodley jazz, ambient jazz, new age jazz. I can take or leave cool and bebop.

But I love Dixieland, Big Band, Swing, Jazz/rock fusion, N'Orleans, Latin Jazz, bossa nova, and ragtime.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> What?? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Exactly.
******


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

It would appear that the type of improvisation found in jazz has been practised by the great composers like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc, from the beginning. Obviously one doesn't have to like all jazz and I feel it is best heard live but hearing a great musician like Earl Hines is a wonder.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I really hate this thread’s title. There are so many cases on this forum (and elsewhere) where someone writes that they don’t understand the love for so and so or why people like this or that, but the reality is never has there been a mind changed by one of these threads. It’s mainly an OP who just wants to rant or complain with no real indication on their part that they want to genuinely pursue whatever is being suggested and learn from it.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Neo Romanza said:


> I really hate this thread's title. There are so many cases on this forum (and elsewhere) where someone writes that they don't understand the love for so and so or why people like this or that, but the reality is never has there been a mind changed by one of these threads. It's mainly an OP who just wants to rant or complain with no real indication on their part that they want to genuinely pursue whatever is being suggested and learn from it.


By listening to many jazz pieces here I learned WHY I hate what I hate. I hate it even more now, but at least it's fulfilling to know why! I also found some good stuff that I like. So, you see...


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