# Beethoven’s late piano sonatas – your favorite pianist?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

As the rains move in, I'm listening to the final trio of Beethoven's late piano sonatas - Nos 30-32. Andras Schiff for me tonight. Who's your favorite pianist in these?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Solomon. His Beethoven is always top notch but IMHO he surpasses even his own high standards in these sonatas.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

...........double posting, sorry.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Quite eccentric, but among those I´ve got (~20), Gould´s take on these 3 sonatas never disappoints me. An unusual sense of flight and line there.

Heard El Bacha yesterday; not bad either, but less original. 
Am looking forward to receiving Korstick´s set in a few days.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Richard Goode is my favourite interpreter of the Beethoven piano sonatas. Other than him, Brendel all the way.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Annie Fischer and Claudio Arrau


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Wilhelm Kempff, Emil Gilels and Barenboim first recording for EMI.


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

sonata no. 30 - Pollini
sonata no. 31 - Ciccolini
sonata no. 32 - Trifonov


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Annie Fischer and Bruce Hungerford on modern grand pianos.

I am a stickler for HIP and usually prefer Beethoven on fortepiano.

However, starting with the Hammerklavier Sonata, I believe Beethoven was no longer writing for the keyboard of his time and had an approximation of a modern grand piano in his mind.

Therefore, beginning with the Hammerklavier, I prefer the modern piano, and Annie Fischer and Bruce Hungerford are as fine as Beethoven interpreters can get, as far as I am concerned.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Some odd ones.

Rosen's Hammerklavier is a special favorite.
Brendel's '60s Opus 109 (on Turnabout)
Goode's Opus 110
Andrew Rangell's Opus 111 (arietta strives for the ineffable unlike any other I've heard)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> However, starting with the Hammerklavier Sonata, I believe Beethoven was no longer writing for the keyboard of his time and had an approximation of a modern grand piano in his mind.


---------------

Why?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hpowders said:


> However, starting with the Hammerklavier Sonata, I believe Beethoven was no longer writing for the keyboard of his time and had an approximation of a modern grand piano in his mind.


If he had imagined an approximation of the modern Steinway, he was more visionary than I had anticipated.

But I agree, that the late sonatas work better on the modern piano than the earlier sonatas do, but I prefer them all on period instruments.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Annie Fischer and Bruce Hungerford on modern grand pianos.
> 
> I am a stickler for HIP and usually prefer Beethoven on fortepiano.
> 
> However, starting with the Hammerklavier Sonata, I believe Beethoven was no longer writing for the keyboard of his time and had an approximation of a modern grand piano in his mind.


Yes, there does seem to be something different about Beethoven's piano writing from the Hammerklavier onward. I wonder if it has to do with the Broadwood piano that he received as a gift in 1817, right around the time that he was working on the Hammerklavier.

The Broadwood piano has a deeper tone and heavier action than the fortepianos that Beethoven had previously used. This new instrument might have inspired him to explore different ways of writing for piano, with fuller chords and more sustained melodic lines.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Yes, there does seem to be something different about Beethoven's piano writing from the Hammerklavier onward. I wonder if it has to do with the Broadwood piano that he received as a gift in 1817, right around the time that he was working on the Hammerklavier.
> 
> The Broadwood piano has a deeper tone and heavier action than the fortepianos that Beethoven had previously used. This new instrument might have inspired him to explore different ways of writing for piano, with fuller chords and more sustained melodic lines.


Yes! What I like about the Brautigam set is his fortepianos get more sophisticated in evolution to parallel Beethoven's development over time.

The one he plays in the Hammerklavier is a McNulty reconstruction of a Graf Piano from 1819. The Op 106 was composed in 1817-18. So the Graf would have been "state of the art" at the time of No. 29.

Even so, the instrument is brought to the breaking point in this recording. One heck of a fine performance and the instrument somehow survives the pounding.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> ---------------
> 
> Why?


Because the grand dynamic scope of the Hammerklavier was far beyond the re-constructive abilities of the fortepianos of the time.
Beethoven seemed to have some other instrument going through his mind when he wrote it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

premont said:


> If he had imagined an approximation of the modern Steinway, he was more visionary than I had anticipated.
> 
> But I agree, that the late sonatas work better on the modern piano than the earlier sonatas do, but I prefer them all on period instruments.


I am currently half-way through the Brautigam set. Delightful! I also have two Mozart complete keyboard concerto sets. Also delightful!

After finishing the complete Brautigam, I will do Annie Fischer from the Hammerklavier through No. 32.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Because the grand dynamic scope of the Hammerklavier was far beyond the re-constructive abilities of the fortepianos of the time.
> Beethoven seemed to have some other instrument going through his mind when he wrote it.


Maybe Beethoven's deafness helped him give free rein to his imagination. Because he couldn't hear any of the actual instruments very well, he was able to envision an ideal instrument.


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## JohnD (Jan 27, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Wilhelm Kempff, Emil Gilels and Barenboim first recording for EMI.


I like Kempff too.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

chesapeake bay said:


> sonata no. 30 - Pollini
> sonata no. 31 - Ciccolini
> sonata no. 32 - Trifonov


Excellent choice.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes! What I like about the Brautigam set is his fortepianos get more sophisticated in evolution to parallel Beethoven's development over time.
> 
> The one he plays in the Hammerklavier is a McNulty reconstruction of a Graf Piano from 1819. The Op 106 was composed in 1817-18. So the Graf would have been "state of the art" at the time of No. 29.
> 
> Even so, the instrument is brought to the breaking point in this recording. One heck of a fine performance and the instrument somehow survives the pounding.


But your point was about all the late piano music wasn't it?


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Pollini for me.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

In general...Kempff, Arrau, Serkin, Gulda, Brendel, Hungerford, Pollini, Goode and Levit all come to mind. 

There are specific ones I can think of as well. Annie Fischer has a wonderful #30 on the EMI label and Piotr Anderszewski has a great live recording of #31 on the Virgin label. 

It's hard for me to even remember anymore because there's so many I enjoy...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

premont said:


> If he had imagined an approximation of the modern Steinway, he was more visionary than I had anticipated.
> 
> But I agree, that the late sonatas work better on the modern piano than the earlier sonatas do, but I prefer them all on period instruments.


You are talking about one of the greatest geniuses of all time. Beethoven imagining a very grand fortepiano, approaching the range and sonority of a modern piano in that incomparable mind of his is not unfeasible.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Maybe Beethoven's deafness helped him give free rein to his imagination. Because he couldn't hear any of the actual instruments very well, he was able to envision an ideal instrument.


Exactly. He was free to let his mind run wild! Who knows? Perhaps middle and late Beethoven wouldn't have been as magnificent if he COULD hear! Feasible that he imagined a grand fortepiano with expanded range and sonority. I can't believe he conceived the Hammerklavier Sonata for a relatively incompetent instrument.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bettina said:


> Maybe Beethoven's deafness helped him give free rein to his imagination. Because he couldn't hear any of the actual instruments very well, he was able to envision an ideal instrument.


I think Beethoven just wanted a louder piano so he could hear it at all. He wrote to many manufacturers demanding louder instruments and Broadwood made for him what was the largest piano in Vienna. His playing was also extremely loud and violent at this late stage of deafness and I think this helped cultivate the late sonata style.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From my reading, Beethoven always wanted a piano with more range, more volume, and more sustaining power. I assume he also wanted one that would keep its tune better and resist his efforts to demolish it. He kept his 1817 Broadwood until his death. It was later owned by Franz Liszt, who donated it to the Hungarian National Museum in 1874, where it remains on display. It was restored to playable condition in 1991.

http://www.sjsu.edu/beethoven/research/beethoven_the_broadwood_fortepiano/


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Couchie said:


> I think Beethoven just wanted a louder piano so he could hear it at all. He wrote to many manufacturers demanding louder instruments and Broadwood made for him what was the largest piano in Vienna. His playing was also extremely loud and violent at this late stage of deafness and I think this helped cultivate the late sonata style.


Yeah, I know that Beethoven often played loudly at that stage of his life, and he favored pianos with louder tones. But I'm not sure if his aggressive style of playing actually influenced his late piano compositions. The late sonatas seem to be more about contrast than about loudness, with fortissimo passages alternating with extremely soft phrases.

There are many quiet, tender moments in (for example) the theme and variations in Op. 109. There's also that plaintive Arioso in Op. 110. In fact, Beethoven's late sonatas strike me as being less aggressive and heroic than many of his earlier works.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Pollini, Gilels, Schnabel, ABM, Gulda.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bettina said:


> Yeah, I know that Beethoven often played loudly at that stage of his life, and he favored pianos with louder tones. But I'm not sure if his aggressive style of playing actually influenced his late piano compositions. The late sonatas seem to be more about contrast than about loudness, with fortissimo passages alternating with extremely soft phrases.
> 
> There are many quiet, tender moments in (for example) the theme and variations in Op. 109. There's also that plaintive Arioso in Op. 110. In fact, Beethoven's late sonatas strike me as being less aggressive and heroic than many of his earlier works.


I think this is right. He could certainly bang away. But listeners commented on his late-life (private, for friends) playing that the soft passages were often played so softly that the notes didn't sound at all. That must have been heart-breaking to see. Only 10-15 years earlier, many had considered him the greatest pianist in Vienna.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jdec said:


> Pollini for me.


This one has very high recommendations , almost everywhere.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Kempff, Brendel, Pollini. Boring choices. Not an HIP guy for Beethoven so I haven't checked out any of those - I guess I should.


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## johankillen (Sep 20, 2015)

Brendel and Perahia


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

eh...Goodyear and Buchbinder. Better, Schiff and Goode. Or...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Kempff, Pollini, Schnabel, Richter, Gould, Kovacevich, Serkin.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hpowders said:


> You are talking about one of the greatest geniuses of all time. Beethoven imagining a very grand fortepiano, approaching the range and sonority of a modern piano in that incomparable mind of his is not unfeasible.


I agree that he probably dreamt about a technically more perfect instrument with better sustaining power,wider range and dynamics et.c., but I do not think he was able to imagine the specific sound of a modern Steinway. The sad fact is, that the price of the technical improvements is a more colorless tone.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Brendel is my choice for all Beethoven's piano sonatas.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​
Afther all that recommendations, currently listing. 
Maurizio Pollini


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> Kempff, Brendel, Pollini. *Boring choices*. Not an HIP guy for Beethoven so I haven't checked out any of those - I guess I should.


\
Pardon? Are you hearing the same as me???


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

My choice for 30-32 would be Lubimov playing an 1828 fortepiano by Alois Graff, released on Zig-Zag. I can't really listen to Beethoven on modern pianos, but if I had to, I'd go for a live recording I have of Hamelin playing at Schwetzingen.

Also, Lubimov is not ideal at all, but I haven't found any better versions. I hate Brautigam. Badura-Skoda is OK but not particularly interesting.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

johankillen said:


> Brendel and Perahia


I wasn't aware that Perahia had recorded 30-32. And I have the Sony mega-box.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> \
> Pardon? Are you hearing the same as me???


I think he meant "boring choices" because they are so frequently mentioned - not referring to the performances as boring.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jegreenwood said:


> I wasn't aware that Perahia had recorded 30-32. And I have the Sony mega-box.


I can't find them either


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2016)

Hélène Grimaud can do no wrong in my ears. She has recorded Nos. 30 & 31 but not 32. She has also recorded Nos. 28 and 17.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Rudolf Serkin is very fine but Annie Fischer is even better, IMHO.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

My favorite versions are:
Pollini on DG
Richter-Haaser on EMI
Kovacevich on Philips (no.28,30-32) and EMI 2006 (no.29)
Arrau on Philips 60s'
Richter on Philips (last 3) and ICA (no.29)
Serkin on Sony and DG (last 3)
HIP: Brautigam on BIS

Alternatives:
Brendel on Philips 70s' and 90s'
Buchbinder on Teldec
Uchida on Philips

Regrettably, Gilels did not manage to record the piano sonata #32 - A huge loss for us.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

If I had to pick one, I'd go with Solomon.

Other favorites in the late sonatas: Rudolf Serkin and Bruce Hungerford.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Emil Gilels is my current preference.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Ahhh....the late Sonatas.

I love all the standards: Schnabel, Backhaus, Kempff, Serkin, Arrau, Solomon, Brendel, Pollini, Goode.

I love Richter in op.109, and op.111. But strangely I have never liked his op.110, and I have several recordings of him playing it. Although his approach is always generally the same. I dislike how he handles the 2nd mvmt.


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