# Ades Warning



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Was wandering around in the library yesterday - got fired last week, so I have a bit more free time now, although I'll have to cut down on random opera purchases - and ran across The Tempest, by Thomas Ades, on CD, with some of the same cast that will be doing it at the Met this coming October and November - Keenlyside, Royal, Spence, and Ades conducting. Wow! what a find, I thought. Got to educate myself. Checked it out and listened to some of it last night - yeesh what a disappointing. You've heard of The Shining - this was The Disappointing. Screeching, bellowing, tuneless.

I used to believe the basics of music were melody, harmony, and rhythm. Then a few years ago I was in the audience at a concert by homeless people. One solo by a guy at the piano really got to me. There was no melody, no harmony, and no rhythm, but it was clearly music. It had heart.






I don't know if The Tempest has heart. With Shakespeare's words, how could it not? But I couldn't bring myself to listen long enough or often enough to tell.

Five fathoms deep thy father lies
Those are pearls that were his eyes
Nothing of him that was mortal
Is the same, his bones are coral
He has suffered a sea change
Into something rich and strange
Sea-nymphs hourly ring his knell
I can hear them, ding dong bell






So I guess the question is - why won't modern classical composers write music? This morning at McDonald's I heard something I'd never heard before, a pop song, it was very compelling. It had rhythm, tune and harmony. And yet it was wild. So I know it can be done. Sorry, I know, I'm turning into a ranter.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Often these things require more than one listen to actually appreciate the music. Adès is not Mozart.

I agree that there are some rather irritating aspects of The Tempest, like the whole character of Ariel and the generally inane and rather annoying libretto, but lack of melody and rhythm is not one of them. Just because you can't hum the tunes after one listen does not mean it's tuneless.

Also, just curious, how familiar are you with 20th century opera?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Often these things require more than one listen to actually appreciate the music. Adès is not Mozart.
> 
> I agree that there are some rather irritating aspects of The Tempest, like the whole character of Ariel and the generally inane and rather annoying libretto, but lack of melody and rhythm is not one of them. Just because you can't hum the tunes after one listen does not mean it's tuneless.
> 
> Also, just curious, how familiar are you with 20th century opera?


Well, I don't really want to appreciate the music ... I want to be swept away!

And ... not very familiar. You see, there are many reasons to believe that Wagner holds beauties I have not yet discovered, simply because of the sheer numbers of fans who rave about him. So I'm willing to put in the work required. What I do NOT want to do is put in that much work and then find, after all the time (that I could have been listening to things I liked) and the expense (of money I could have spent going to performances I enjoyed), that I STILL can't stand the guy.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

You may be horrified to learn that this is one of my top ten operas:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Was wandering around in the library yesterday - got fired last week, so I have a bit more free time now, although I'll have to cut down on random opera purchases


 I'm so sorry to hear about that - hope you find something else soon. Good luck with your Tempest homework.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> You may be horrified to learn that this is one of my top ten operas:


Hey, if YOU'RE a fan, it's on my list of THINGS TO TRY!!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Greg... bad luck about the job. At least there is a lot of free opera on YouTube to enjoy while you are hunting around for something else.

As for modern music, I find that it's a question of getting into the idiom. And I also find that I like to see them rather than listen to them, because the music is sometimes very difficult to get a grip on.

Here is something to get you started. It seem to be available complete on YouTube. It certainly swept me away!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I borrowed the Tempest CD from my library not too long ago and while I was not wildly enthusiastic about it, I did'nt actually dislike it . It might be more enjoyable on DVD or a PBS telecast where the visual element can make things more interesting.
For example, I've never been a fan of the Philip Glass operas, but I liked Satyagraha somewhat more when I saw the PBS telecast from the Met. The visual elements somehow made the repetitious minmialist music seem less monotronous and boring .


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Ah, the Washington Senators - my old mum was born the year they won their only World Series. Heart was often the only attribute they ever had.

Haven't heard Ades' Tempest but I was impressed with Powder Her Face - elements of Berg and Britten amongst others plus a nice story based on a rather juicy society scandal.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Here is something to get you started. It seem to be available complete on YouTube. It certainly swept me away!

Unfortunately the sync between the sound and the picture is waaaay off. Personally, I've never come across anything by Birtwhistle that I have liked... but I have heard a good many positive things about this opera, and it looks and sounds promising.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Here is something to get you started. It seem to be available complete on YouTube. It certainly swept me away!
> 
> Unfortunately *the sync between the sound and the picture is waaaay off*. Personally, I've never come across anything by Birtwhistle that I have liked... but I have heard a good many positive things about this opera, and it looks and sounds promising.


Oh bother, you're right, I watched it on a library DVD so I haven't seen it on Youtube and just got excited at finding it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Thomas Adès is a wonderful contemporary composer. Glad you discovered his music. Don't worry though, after several listens I'm sure you'll find some beauty in that opera. "The Tempest" is one of my favourites and I've listened to it several times already. Adès is a truly gifted composer and I would say he's in the same league as Mozart.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Thomas Adès is a wonderful contemporary composer. Glad you discovered his music. Don't worry though, after several listens I'm sure you'll find some beauty in that opera. "The Tempest" is one of my favourites and I've listened to it several times already. Adès is a truly gifted composer and I would say he's in the same league as Mozart.


The trouble I've had with some Ades so far is that it starts off all well and good and then doesn't go anywhere particular. I was listening to his Piano Quintet recently and thought this is promising, I could like this. But then it it started to slip and lose focus and then arrgh.... in the midst of an harmonic language which was just about bordering on the coherent, the piano started in with quotes from Brahms. God, what a let down. How gimicky and pointless. After that I lost the will to listen. 
If you are going to work in a quote from older music it needs to fit in with the sound world you have created and not stick out like a sore thumb as it detracts from the believability of the music. Berg did it successfully with a Bach Chorale in his Violin Concerto by choosing the one and only bit of Bach that is so harmonically daring and way out that it could be seamless incorporated into the piece without destroying the environment by just being chucked in for some non-textual point.
Then listening to Asyla a similar thing happened during the very silly 3rd movement which is supposed to evoke club music. I thought, this really isn't very good at all.

I'll keep trying though and see if any of the plaudits he receives are merited. I'm not optimistic.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

What? The third movement of Asyla is genius! How a man can do all of that only in 4/4 time is astounding. Also, it's really catchy.

Have you heard his Tevot?


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Aksel said:


> What? The third movement of Asyla is genius! How a man can do all of that only in 4/4 time is astounding. Also, it's really catchy.
> 
> Have you heard his Tevot?


Do all of what in 4/4 time? The movement just seems superficial to me and something like Symphonic Dances from West Side Story does it with less pretension I think.

I like Tevot better, except for the damn A major chord at the end.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

There are tools you can use to resync youtube audio http://youtubeaudiosync.tumblr.com/ although I think they only work if the audio is out at a constant rate, e.g. constantly 10 seconds out, I don't know of one that handles the audio "drifting".


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Thomas Adès is a wonderful contemporary composer. Glad you discovered his music. Don't worry though, after several listens I'm sure you'll find *some* beauty in that opera.

The Pavlovian method.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Greg... bad luck about the job. At least there is a lot of free opera on YouTube to enjoy while you are hunting around for something else.


lol thanks ... and plenty at the library too!



> As for modern music, I find that it's a question of getting into the idiom. And I also find that I like to see them rather than listen to them, because the music is sometimes very difficult to get a grip on.
> 
> Here is something to get you started. It seem to be available complete on YouTube. It certainly swept me away!


Thanks. I did listen to and watch your suggested sample here - which wasn't helped much by a 12-second delay between the sound and the video - but am not unfortunately a convert yet. I may try it again if I can find a DVD - you know I trust your judgment - but gosh, I do miss harmony and melody.

I'm not a total Luddite - I did greatly enjoy ABT's Romeo & Juliet (finished in 1935) and (of course) their new Firebird (written 1910, re-choreographed by Ratmansky in 2012), and oddly enough I loved The Nose (Shostakovich, 1927-1928) when the Met did it the season before last, although I did kind of wish he had written some music for it.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

superhorn said:


> The visual elements somehow made the repetitious minmialist music seem less monotronous and boring .


Visuals help, certainly - if they're the RIGHT visuals. That's why stage direction is so fraught - the wrong visuals will just screw it up for people who already love it. Although I'm not sure Ades has such a population to draw on.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Thomas Adès is a wonderful contemporary composer. Glad you discovered his music. Don't worry though, after several listens I'm sure you'll find some beauty in that opera. "The Tempest" is one of my favourites and I've listened to it several times already. Adès is a truly gifted composer and I would say he's in the same league as Mozart.


lol I bet you don't actually listen to Ligeti at all!! All along you've been a Celine Dion fan, just putting us all on ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> If you are going to work in a quote from older music it needs to fit in with the sound world you have created and not stick out like a sore thumb as it detracts from the believability of the music. Berg did it successfully with a Bach Chorale in his Violin Concerto by choosing the one and only bit of Bach that is so harmonically daring and way out that it could be seamless incorporated into the piece without destroying the environment by just being chucked in for some non-textual point.


Huh ... have to try that! Thanks for the suggestion.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

I for 1 missged satragaha last year so don't want to miss this one this year. So far only 1 2 minute clip on youtube i've liked (actually was very intrigued by it), the other 3 I hated.... but after spending the day watching clips of nixon in china I think i'm going to reevaluate my take on modern opera and at least give the tempst the benefit of the doubt.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

obwan said:


> I for 1 missged satragaha last year so don't want to miss this one this year. So far only 1 2 minute clip on youtube i've liked (actually was very intrigued by it), the other 3 I hated.... but after spending the day watching clips of nixon in china I think i'm going to reevaluate my take on modern opera and at least give the tempst the benefit of the doubt.


If you want to try Tempest, the Met's production of this, conducted by the composer himself, will be debuting on Met on HD (Fathom Events) this coming Saturday.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> So I guess the question is - why won't modern classical composers write music?


Guess again. (You have two more questions.)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

never mind. initial OP is an invitation to a downhill bashfest.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Personally, I am looking forward to Thomas Adès's Tempest, which I have never seen before as there is no video performance I have been able to find of this one. I do have Powder Her Face, which I thought was very good. I've quite intentionally not listened to the music for The Tempest, as I always like to experience a new opera for the first time both visually and aurally.

My main gripe with Thomas Adès is his diatribe against Wagner. I think this certainly reduces him in my eyes. Frankly, in a hundred years, Adès may (or may not) be forgotten (aside from the musicologists), while I am quite certain that Wagner will remain Wagner.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2012)

Diatribe? Are you referring to his brief comment in the interview with Service?

That's not much of a diatribe. More like a description. A forceful description, maybe, but not even all that forceful.

I think the metaphor is apt, anyway. Wagner was responsible for subordinating music to narrative and to theatre more thoroughly than anyone before him. And his musical ideas did come largely from other composers. But besides all that, mushrooms are delightful. There's no doubt that Wagner's music and Wagner's ideas and Wagner's theatre and Wagner's philosophizing and psychologizing delight a fair number of people.

I don't see how Adès' pithy remark could reduce him in anyone's eyes, frankly. And I certainly don't see why a reduced view of a person would lead to a reduced pleasure in that person's music. A lot of genuinely awful people (Adès not being one of those, anyway) wrote a lot of genuinely enjoyable music. And vise versa. And another option as well.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> You may be horrified to learn that this is one of my top ten operas:


Oh my Lord. I see why he committed suicide. I am determined to sit through five minutes. No, I can't. 3'50". Done.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

First time seeing the Tempest. It was a wonderful opera. I liked it better than Power Her Face. Such a gifted composer.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> You may be horrified to learn that this is one of my top ten operas:


I got excited for a moment because I thought this was a different performance than the one I already have on DVD. Sadly, not. Alas.

Zimmerman does an excellent job in the scoring, creating tension and deserves credit for what Sutcliffe calls, "the musical language". I just wish there was a recording of this that isn't almost 50 years old!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> I got excited for a moment because I thought this was a different performance than the one I already have on DVD. Sadly, not. Alas.
> 
> Zimmerman does an excellent job in the scoring, creating tension and deserves credit for what Sutcliffe calls, "the musical language". I just wish there was a recording of this that isn't almost 50 years old!


There will probably (maybe) be a DVD from the recent Salzburg performance.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I attended the Met HD broadcast of The Tempest this weekend, my first Ades experience. In the introduction, they presented Ades as the musical heir to Benjamin Britten or some such proclamation. At least stylistically, the comparison seemed pretty accurate to me. From what I could tell, one's reaction to Ades would be similar to Britten... positive or negative.

Personally, while Britten is not a composer I'd go out of my way to hear, he's not one I'd go out of my way to avoid either. He has his uses, such as portraying the inner struggles of isolated, offbeat characters - something Ades also does reasonably well in The Tempest. But then there's little in Britten that endears itself to the ear of the casual listener either.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Personally, while Britten is not a composer I'd go out of my way to hear, he's not one I'd go out of my way to avoid either. He has his uses, such as portraying the inner struggles of isolated, offbeat characters - something Ades also does reasonably well in The Tempest.


On the OPERA-L mailing list, it seems that of the people that commented, more liked the Tempest than disliked it.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I heard the EMI recording from Covent Garden not too long ago when I borrowed it from my local library .
Actually, as operas by contemporary composers go, it's nowhere near the most thorny , complex and daunting I've heard by any means . I think Schoenberg's Moses & Aron, hardly a new opera, is probably more difficult for many people who are relatively new to opera . Ditto with Die Soldaten by Bernd Alois Zimmermann or Lear by Aribert Reimann , for example .
However, all three of these can grow on you with further listening . This happened with me .


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

For those who didn't see the Met's Tempest, here it is--the full opera:
Full video of the Met's Tempest


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