# Mahler Symphony 8



## DavidA

Must confess I can't come to terms with this symphony with its gargantuan proportions myself, but I know others disagree. What are your recommendations?


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## CnC Bartok

Four performances do it for me in different ways:

Solti (predictable, eh?)
Sinopoli
Gielen (his older recording on Sony)
Tennstedt

I do need to say this is my least favourite Mahler symphony, but I don't think I;'ll be the only one like that.


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## Larkenfield

I consider the symphony atypical of Mahler's others and perhaps that's why it's a little harder to understand and appreciate. It's dedicated to Alma Mahler and I feel that this gargantuan effort was partly written in order to win her back in their troubled marriage. While it didn't, this massive symphony of great forces and voices was one of his greatest successes during his lifetime and I think he was very much still at the height of his creative powers. But I've found that it's the hardest symphony to find a satisfying performance.

What I don't care for in most of the performances I've heard is the vocal strain that many of the performers show because he's writing in the higher end of their vocal range and for me it's tiring to hear. I do not care for the famous Solti recording though he has a great lineup of voices, but still I find it rather strident overall.

My favorite performance is a recent one by Gustavo Dudamel and I feel he does a magnificent job of holding all these incredible forces together without strain and effort. Not an easy task. I think this proves he's a great conductor. I like the effortless singing. I like the playing. A perfect performance - no. A spirited performance - yes. I think it's very much worth hearing and I've stopped looking for other performances to superseded it.

The _words_ are important and I believe the symphony should not be discussed without them. They matter, as they're about creative inspiration, just as a starter. So I think Mahler felt deeply about this tremendous creation and after finding a performance I like, I consider it just as great a symphony as his others. I think in a great performance there's a sense of wonder, the spiritually miraculous, that's part of it.

https://www.naxos.com/sungtext/PDF/550533-34_Mahler_Texts.pdf


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## manyene

One of the main problems with the Mahler 8 is that of finding a suitable venue for its enormous forces. If your concert hall is too small you have to stage it in a cathedral (provided it is big enough!) and that can cause problems with acoustics. Liverpool's practice has always been to stage it in its Anglican Cathedral, with its long acoustical decay. The first movement is as a consequence a glorious wash of sound: the second movement, with its solos, is better and there you have the advantage of soloists being placed in high positions (as dictated in the score).


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## Guest

While I love Mahler, my relationship with the 8th has always been problematic, more than any of the others, including the 7th. I started with the Solti recording, and did not like it. It sits in my library collecting dust. A few years ago, I picked up the Nagano recording on HM, and have come to appreciate the work a bit more through that recording. Still my least favorite, and one I don't listen to that often. But I appreciate it a little more now.


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## mbhaub

Like others, not my favorite Mahler. To be effective on record it needs spectacular sound and it has to move! The best versions are the ones that fit on one disk: Kubelik on DG is my #1. Solti is too hard driven for me. The old Wyn Morris recording was also quite fine.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Like the 7th, it took a single recording to finally turn me on to the 8th, and that is the celebrated Horenstein. A must listen for all Mahlerians.

Four essential recordings:

Jascha Horenstein (BBC)
Dmitri Mitropoulos (Orfeo, Music & Arts)
Leonard Bernstein (DG)
Georg Solti (Decca)

Additional listening:

Wyn Morris (Pickwick)
Hermann Scherchen (Tahra)
Leopold Stokowski (1950) (Archipel, United Classics)
Eduard Flipse (RPO, Scribendum)
Claudio Abbado (1995) (DG)
Klaus Tennstedt (EMI)
Giuseppe Sinopoli (DG)


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## Dimace

Larkenfield said:


> I consider the symphony atypical of Mahler's others and perhaps that's why it's a little harder to understand and appreciate. It's dedicated to Alma Mahler and I feel that this gargantuan effort was partly written in order to win her back in their troubled marriage. While it didn't, this massive symphony of great forces and voices was one of his greatest successes during his lifetime and I think he was very much still at the height of his creative powers. *But I've found that it's the hardest symphony to find a satisfying performance.
> *
> What I don't care for in most of the performances I've heard is the vocal strain that many of the performers show because he's writing in the higher end of their vocal range and for me it's tiring to hear. I do not care for the famous Solti recording though he has a great lineup of voices, but still I find it rather strident overall.
> 
> My favorite performance is a recent one by Gustavo Dudamel and I feel he does a magnificent job of holding all these incredible forces together without strain and effort. Not an easy task. I think this proves he's a great conductor. I like the effortless singing. I like the playing. A perfect performance - no. A spirited performance - yes. I think it's very much worth hearing and I've stopped looking for other performances to superseded it.
> 
> The _words_ are important and I believe the symphony should not be discussed without them. They matter, as they're about creative inspiration, just as a starter. So I think Mahler felt deeply about this tremendous creation and after finding a performance I like, I consider it just as great a symphony as his others. I think in a great performance there's a sense of wonder, the spiritually miraculous, that's part of it.
> 
> https://www.naxos.com/sungtext/PDF/550533-34_Mahler_Texts.pdf


To the point! They are cheating with this one. No 1000 but 400 or less. This way we have no performances but forgeries.

For the REAL thing look at Ozawa and Rattle.


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## starthrower

I would love to go hear this live, but the chances are slim. I listened to Ozawa's BSO recording a few nights ago and there is much to like in this symphony. Plenty of beautiful music. Tilson Thomas is good for the great sound. I have Bernstein DG, and Tennstedt that need to listen to. I'm not going to waste my energy and focus nitpicking about the shortcomings of recordings. If the sound is decent I can listen.


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## dismrwonderful

This symphony is just too much for me. It is too big, too much sound. I get the impression that Mahler believes that if he only tries hard enough and loud enough that maybe God just might hear him, be impressed by him, or even notice him.

Dan


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## Becca

Unlike many, the 8th is one of my favourite Mahler symphonies, albeit one that doesn't get played very often.

I was "at" the Dudamel LAPO/SBSO performance ... ok, in a movie theater for the simulcast from Caracas! It was quite special and an excellent performance. That venue was certainly better than hearing it at home but definitely not the same as in the concert hall. Having said that, my favourite is still the Rattle/Nat'l Youth Orchestra performance done at the Proms in 2002. I also have Rattle's CBSO recording done with the same soloists and choirs and it is also very good, but the Proms performance has that extra that only a very good live performance can give. I also have the Tennstedt/LPO recording which I liked but have not listened to in ages.


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## starthrower

I'm listening to the Tennstedt right now. And I'll Watch the Proms Rattle this weekend, thanks!

Here's a link. Take your pick on the upload.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bbc+proms+mahler+8+rattle+


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## Becca

With Mahler even more than others, I have increasingly found that live performances are more interesting than studio efforts - Klemperer/BRSO 2nd, Tennstedt & Barbirolli 3rd, Barshai 5th, etc., etc.


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## MarkW

Not my favorite. "Learned" it on Bernstein/LSO. Haitinck's good. Kubelik very good. Solti driven but has at least one passage for vocalists near the end that absolutely soars. Ozawa betrays an inability to shape (all climaxes created equal).


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## Merl

DavidA said:


> Must confess I can't come to terms with this symphony with its gargantuan proportions myself, but I know others disagree. What are your recommendations?


Totally agree. Nuff said.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Tentative Top Five, in no particular order: Solti, Bernstein, Horenstein, Gielen, Boulez... although it's a coin-toss as to whether I'd have included Antoni Wit's fine recording in there.

Many years ago, Simon Rattle conducted a stupendous performance with the British National Youth Orchestra at the Proms, which I still wish the BBC would release on CD.


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## wkasimer

starthrower said:


> I listened to Ozawa's BSO recording a few nights ago and there is much to like in this symphony.


The 8th is certainly my least favorite of Mahler's symphonies - the Ozawa is actually the only one that I play with any regularity.


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## DeepR

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Many years ago, Simon Rattle conducted a stupendous performance with the British National Youth Orchestra at the Proms, which I still wish the BBC would release on CD.


I like this symphony for the finale. And this is the only recording I've heard where I really like the _sound_ of the finale. So much better than the Dudamel. A release would be nice indeed.


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## Heck148

I like the 8th....there is some really lovely music in it, and the grand finale is really something..Solti does it for me, as always, great with the big build-ups to great climaxes of sound...

Bernnstein/LSO was pretty good also - had on LP...


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## techniquest

This is a photo of my Mahler 8 CD collection.
I consider the Wyn Morris recording on IMP/Pickwick to be especially fine and well worth picking up if you can find it. The Antoni Wit recording on Naxos is also very good indeed, especially at the budget price bracket. It is these two that I listen to the most.
The Rattle, Nagano and Gergiev recordings are also very good (odd to find myself saying that about a Gergiev Mahler recording, but the performance is exciting and the recorded sound in St.Paul's Cathedral, London makes for a unique live experience). The Mahlerfest live recording is a curio worth keeping only for the bravery of putting on such a huge piece with mostly provincial performers.


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## realdealblues

I love all of Mahler's symphonies including this one. I especially love the first part/movement. It's a difficult one to pull off especially if you don't use all the forces specified.

Favorite recordings:

Leonard Bernstein/London Symphony Orchestra
Michael Gielen/Frankfurt [Live]

There are other fine recordings but those two are my favorites.


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## grandebulla

This is one of my favourite symphonies of all time.
I have at least 9 different versions and i must say that i pick Bernstein/VPO despite some exagerations (typical from Lenny) in the tempo, also i like very much Sinopoli's and Gielen. The best Doctor Marianus in record is Ben Heppner (a truly heldentenor) for Davis, although the overall result is no so good.
Dudamel, sorry, but for me is a spawn from the record industry. For me, doesn't exist. SORRY.


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## Brahmsianhorn

grandebulla said:


> This is one of my favourite symphonies of all time.
> I have at least 9 different versions and i must say that i pick Bernstein/VPO despite some exagerations (typical from Lenny) in the tempo, also i like very much Sinopoli's and Gielen. The best Doctor Marianus in record is Ben Heppner (a truly heldentenor) for Davis, although the overall result is no so good.
> Dudamel, sorry, but for me is a spawn from the record industry. For me, doesn't exist. SORRY.


I think the Bernstein/VPO is one of the more underrated Mahler recordings. I really think it makes the best case for this problematic symphony among modern recordings. If you want to love the 8th, this is a good recording for it. The Solti blazes and impresses, but it doesn't make me love the 8th.


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## DavidA

Have performances by Kubelik and Chailly but don't know whether I'll ever grow to like this work.


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## DrSardonicus

I've discovered Mahler in the last month or so. The only symphonies I've not yet heard are the 1st, 7th, 8th and Das Lied. Am I ready for 8 yet?


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## wkasimer

DrSardonicus said:


> I've discovered Mahler in the last month or so. The only symphonies I've not yet heard are the 1st, 7th, 8th and Das Lied. Am I ready for 8 yet?


I'd listen to 1, Das Lied, and 7 first, in that order. The 8th has been a tough nut to crack for me.


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## Becca

Whereas for me the 8th was an easier 'nut' to crack than the 7th!


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## Larkenfield

Here's the Wyn Morris Mahler 8th that techniquest mentioned. I look forward to hearing it. I consider it one of the hardest of his symphonies to do a satisfying performance and recording with its huge forces. I have high hopes because Morris's recording of the 10th has become a personal favorite.


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## DrSardonicus

wkasimer said:


> I'd listen to 1, Das Lied, and 7 first, in that order. The 8th has been a tough nut to crack for me.


Will do. I suspected that the partly vocal Das Lied would act as a useful bridge toward the 8th. I'll absorb the 1st post haste!


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## Merl

As many of you know, this is the one Mahler symphony I just cannot 'get'. After years of not caring much for the 3rd I've finally been recently converted (thanks to Haitink's Mahlerfeest recording and Honeck's disc) but the one sticking point for me in Mahler remains this symphony. I've tried every recording I can think of but it still leaves me cold. Once or twice a year I try another new recording but each time I fail but as I've finally cracked my 3rd indifference maybe I can finally break this one. For the next month or so I'm gonna immerse myself in the 8th. I'm thinking of 'chunlkng' one movement at a time. Gotta be worth a shot.


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## Konsgaard

I think this is one of the most successful symphonies by Mahler. He also had a high opinion of the work. I find it among his best symphonies, certainly better than 1, 4 and 6 but this is only my opinion of course. Favourite recordings: Bertini, Rattle, Tennstedt live. My introduction to the work was with the Solti recording and for a year or so I it used to be my least favourite Mahler symphony, until I heard a few more and realised this could well be one of his finest compositions.


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## RockyIII

I like the live recording by the Cologne Radio City Orchestra (now known as the WDR Symphony Orchestra) with Gary Bertini conducting.


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## pianoville

This is a symphony that often gets overshadowed by the other Mahler symphonies, probably due to how large and dense the score is. Because of it this symphony does not get performed as much as the others. This symphony used to be one of my least favorite symphonies but hearing it live last year was such a huge experience that I doubt could be matched by any other Mahler symphony. I think you need to hear this one live, recordings just doesn't do it justice.

Solti's is a great recording that is a little more fast paced and good to listen to if you're new to this piece but I must also say that the final Chorus Mysticus by Chailly and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra is just something else!


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## MrMeatScience

I'm seeing this work live in a couple weeks in Budapest. I've had rather an odd relationship with it over the years. It was one of the first Mahler symphonies I heard, and I loved it to bits, but as I discovered his other works it fell out of favor with me and I went several years without playing it again. Lately as I've been listening to prepare for the concert, it's begun to regain its appeal for me. The orchestral adagio that opens part II is particularly stirring.


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## nospoonboy

I understand why many people find this work difficult. It is an emotional storm that requires a lot of energy to get through and demands engagement. For me it is extraordinary and I love the ups and downs. Additionally, music aside the sheer logistics of putting on a performance of the 8th is difficult--to say the least--so any recording is going to have many obstacles just planning and executing any particular realization. I have a few dozen copies of th 8th and here are my top 10:

1. Kubelik with Barvarian RSO on Audite (this live version just resonates with me and has such great energy)
2. Kubelik with Bavarian RSO on DG (the studio version with the same performers, but they just don't have the same 'something extra' that they have in the live performance on Audite)
3. Gielen with SWF on Hanssler
4. Sinnopoli with Philharmonia on DG
5. Nagano with Deutsched SO Berlin on Harmonia Mundi
6. Ozawa with BSO on Philips
7. Solti with Chicago on Decca
8. Abbado with Berlin on DG
9. Hornestein withe LSO on BBC
10. Olson with Mahlerfest '95

A very honorable mention goes out to a bootleg version with Harding with the Swedish RSO on 8/26/2018 in Edinburgh. I have been playing this in regular rotation for a couple of months and love it....just have not ranked it as of yet, but I think it will probably place among my favorites.


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## pianoville

nospoonboy said:


> A very honorable mention goes out to a bootleg version with Harding with the Swedish RSO on 8/26/2018 in Edinburgh. I have been playing this in regular rotation for a couple of months and love it....just have not ranked it as of yet, but I think it will probably place among my favorites.


I actually heard Harding play this symphony with the same orchestra in Stockholm last year. It certainly was very great, although some of the vocal soloists were not to my taste.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Have performances by Kubelik and Chailly but don't know whether I'll ever grow to like this work.


The Boulez did it for me. And now that I've listened to this symphony quite a few times I not only find it very approachable, but I'm in love with it. And it's over too fast. I like Tennstedt's recording too. Gielen on Hanssler is okay, but a bit stodgy. I still need to listen to Bernstein.


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## Becca

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Many years ago, Simon Rattle conducted a stupendous performance with the British National Youth Orchestra at the Proms, which I still wish the BBC would release on CD.


It is accessible on YouTube and is well worth getting. It trumps all others I have heard.


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## Totenfeier

Becca said:


> It is accessible on YouTube and is well worth getting. It trumps all others I have heard.


Seconded. What a glorious noise!


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## Becca

Dimace said:


> To the point! They are cheating with this one. No 1000 but 400 or less. This way we have no performances but forgeries.
> 
> For the REAL thing look at Ozawa and Rattle.


Given that I attended the live simulcast of this comment, there were most definitely over 1000 in the choir (~1200) plus a double orchestra (LA Philharmonic and Simon Bolivar Orch.) so I don't know where you got the 400 from. Besides, it wasn't Mahler who coined that name for the symphony, it was a marketing ploy.


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## SixFootScowl

So I was at Dearborn Music today and they had a 20% sale. I bought Mahler 4 Tennstedt with Lucia Popp and seeing a Solti Mahler 8 with Popp, thought to get that too, though in the back of my mind I wondered if I didn't already have it. Sure enough I do, but I guess for $6.38 sale price having a remastered edition of Solti's Mahler 8 is worth it vs the old release I have from before. What do you think? Is it worth it, or should I return it?


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## Heck148

worth it, a keeper....


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## CnC Bartok

Heck148 said:


> worth it, a keeper....


Reminds me of the old joke:

When I first met my wife, she was well over 6ft tall, and wearing a green soccer shirt and huge gloves. I knew straight away she was a keeper....

Never mind!


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## Duncan

*Mahler: Symphony No. 8 in E flat major 'Symphony of a Thousand', etc.*

*Elizabeth Connell, Edith Wiens, Felicity Lott, Trudeliese Schmidt, Nadine Denize, Richard Versalle, Jorma Hynninen, Hans Sotin
Tiffin School Boys' Choir, London Philharmonic Choir, London Philharmonic Orchestra, Klaus Tennstedt*









*Mahler: Symphony No. 8 in E flat major 'Symphony of a Thousand'*

*Júlia Várady, Jane Eaglen, Susan Bullock (sopranos), Trudeliese Schmidt, Jadwiga Rappé (mezzo soprano), Kenneth Riegel (tenor), Eike Wilm Schulte (baritone) & Hans Sotin (bass)
London Philharmonic Orchestra and Choir, London Symphony Chorus & Eton College Boys' Choir, Klaus Tennstedt*

Same conductor - different recordings - 1.)A and 1.)B...

This composition requires one's full attention and commitment and thus must be listened to because of a considered choice rather than because one is listening to the complete cycle and it's the next in line following the 7th...


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## Azol

Usual suspects aside (Solti, Bernstein, Chailly, Kubelik etc... btw, Nagano has weak tenor to really consider it a favorite), I would say this one fully deserves to be made available on DVD/Blu-ray/CD, I would be the first in line to make a preorder:

*Sir Simon Ratte conducts National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain*





In fact, the single most puzzling thing about M8 for me is: there are so many people who say this is their least favorite of all Mahler's symphonies. Where are they come from? It sounds like "y'know, Earth is my least favorite planet in this solar system".


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## SixFootScowl

CnC Bartok said:


> Reminds me of the old joke:
> 
> When I first met my wife, she was well over 6ft tall, and wearing a green soccer shirt and huge gloves. I knew straight away she was a keeper....
> 
> Never mind!


I don't get it. Is this something one has to be culturally literate to understand? I am not culturally literate, having not watched television since 1989.


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## flamencosketches

Mollie John said:


> View attachment 125869
> 
> This composition requires one's full attention and commitment and thus must be listened to because of a considered choice rather than because one is listening to the complete cycle and it's the next in line following the 7th...


:lol: That's exactly what I did last week. Frankly it didn't leave as much of a (new) impression on me as I'd hoped, but I do reckon the recording may have been in part to blame. It was the Haitink/RCO, and from what everyone tells me, Haitink didn't think much of the symphony at the time. Still going to keep it around and revisit in the future.

I got my hands on the Wit/Warsaw National Philharmonic/Naxos. I've heard bits here and there but not the whole thing yet. I have a feeling this may be the one for me...


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## flamencosketches

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't get it. Is this something one has to be culturally literate to understand? I am not culturally literate, having not watched television since 1989.


I don't know if you're into soccer much but "keeper" is the soccer position we would refer to in America as "goalie". Probably ruined the joke now, but there you go. :lol:


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## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> I don't know if you're into soccer much but "keeper" is the soccer position we would refer to in America as "goalie". Probably ruined the joke now, but there you go. :lol:


Thank you for both explaining, and ruining in one fell swoop! 

Fritz, being culturally illiterate as far as Association Football is concerned is not the worst gap in knowledge or appreciation a human being can possess......:cheers:


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## damianjb1

CnC Bartok said:


> Four performances do it for me in different ways:
> 
> Solti (predictable, eh?)
> Sinopoli
> Gielen (his older recording on Sony)
> Tennstedt
> 
> I do need to say this is my least favourite Mahler symphony, but I don't think I;'ll be the only one like that.


It's my least favourite too.


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## Kiki

Coming back from a long period of Mahler burn-out, I re-started with Donald Runnicles, deliberately staying away from the usual suspects, and (perhaps surprisingly) I quite enjoyed it in fact! Haven't done any comparison yet (in fact I seldom do that), maybe it shows that the Eighth does strike a chord with me regardless of the performance, although it is far from being a favourite of mine.

Sir Donald rules! (I know, I know, he's not been knighted...)

But it also illustrates that problem with recordings of the Eighth in which, a huge force sounds amazing but often also sounds murky and congestive on records, while a small force like the one used by Tennstedt in his studio recording makes good sense for listening at home, but I can't help feeling that something is missing.


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## CnC Bartok

It's the only Mahler symphony I have seen live more than once, at a Prom in the late '80s conducted by Lorin Maazel, and in St.Vitus cathedral in Prague, conducted by Pavel Kuhn, probably about 1994? The latter was a great event for me, for the setting, the acoustic, which made for a great atmosphere, and the weather outside! Hearing Mahler 8 in a roaring thunderstorm was somehow very very appropriate!

Listening on a CD ain't quite the same......


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## SixFootScowl

CnC Bartok said:


> It's the only Mahler symphony I have seen live more than once, at a Prom in the late '80s conducted by Lorin Maazel, and in St.Vitus cathedral in Prague, conducted by Pavel Kuhn, probably about 1994? The latter was a great event for me, for the setting, the acoustic, which made for a great atmosphere, and the weather outside! Hearing Mahler 8 in a roaring thunderstorm was somehow very very appropriate!
> 
> Listening on a CD ain't quite the same......


Choral parts can get garbled and noisy on CD whereas a good concert hall (Hill Auditorium, Ann Arbor MI USA, for example) will convey them with intricate clarity.


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## Heck148

I don't think any sound recording technology thus far developed can adequately reproduce a live Mahler 8...the sheer amount of sound, the spatial distribution of forces, the effect of massed forces of vocal and instrumental is overwhelming.
Berlioz Requiem is another, tho not quite the same scale.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

CnC Bartok said:


> It's the only Mahler symphony I have seen live more than once


It's certainly the only one I've seen twice within a few months. Firstly with Maazel and the Philharmonia at the Royal Festival Hall in October 2011, and then in April 2012 with Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra at the Wales Millennium Centre, Cardiff. Both were memorable performances, with the Maazel especially so as one of the double-bass players fainted and fell off her chair, with the instrument and chair clattering loudly to the floor.

Amazingly, this incident coincided with a break in the music (just before the tenor solo "Blicket auf" near the end), with Maazel and the soloist (Stefan Vinke) unflappably continuing the music after the bassist had been safely escorted from the stage. Luckily, I've heard she was fine afterwards.

Signum recorded this concert as part of their complete Maazel/Philharmonia Mahler cycle and, as the incident happened at such an "opportune" moment, I haven't noticed a trace of the commotion - not even an echo - on the final recording.


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## CnC Bartok

Bumping this thread for dizwell! Enjoy!


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## mahlernerd

This symphony is a good example of why bigger doesn’t always mean better. However, I still think that it is a fantastic piece of music, just maybe Mahler’s weakest.


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## Marc

Somehow I think that the first part is one of Mahler's strongest movements, composition-wise. But I don't know anything about composing, lol, so who am I to say?

The opening Adagio and the Chor & Echo of the 2nd part is truly wonderful, too, but after that, the musical story becomes too loose and widespread for me, albeit with some wonderful episodes now and then.

It's my least favourite Mahler, which is mostly caused by the fact that for me it never has been a piece that can be listened to on whatever time/day/moment. Of course, Mahler does have his loud (to very loud) moments in every symphony, but to me the 8th is just too much.

I do appreciate the recordings of Kubelik (DG), Ozawa (Philips/Universal), Nagano (Harmonia Mundi), Chailly (Decca) and Shaw (Telarc), despite the sometimes bad pronouncation of the language in the latter. But I won't blame them. My pronouncation of the English language is rather desperate, too. As anyone who reads this, can confirm.


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## Avey

When you need joy, when you need sadness, when you need feeling and life and Reason - go here.

Mahler could only top this sort of creation with the Ninth. When I hear "least favorite", I really do hear "least heard". The Eighth is so incredibly powerful on a whole - like, what? This is your "least" favored of his works?

CHECK YOURSELF.

IMHO


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## Avey

Also, go Tennstedt - live or recorded. Go Solti. Bernstein always clutch.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> The Boulez did it for me. And now that I've listened to this symphony quite a few times I not only find it very approachable, but I'm in love with it. And it's over too fast. I like Tennstedt's recording too. Gielen on Hanssler is okay, but a bit stodgy. I still need to listen to Bernstein.


Well, this happened to me. After a long time of calling this my "least favorite Mahler", saying "I just don't get it", Mahler's 8th Symphony has finally clicked with me. I completely agree with everything you've said, Star, though I've heard none of those recordings. The ones I have heard are Solti/Chicago, Bernstein/Sony, and Haitink/RCO and I like all of them for different reasons. I haven't been able to pick out a favorite. The one that did it for me was Haitink, which is odd as I've been told the conductor is on record saying that he doesn't like conducting the 8th.

I see it as Mahler's most mystical symphony. It might be seen as a bombastic expression of grandeur to some but that's not really what I hear in it. The Hymnus is like a large-scale, Mahlerized Bach motet, while the Faust sequence has this vast German Romantic feel to it, like a magical open meadow. Somehow what it calls to my mind is Schumann, Schubert & Weber.

This symphony is a big, big achievement for Mahler. I would definitely call it one of his greatest symphonies.


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## Mhutt74

I also find the 8th problematic, it always seems unwieldy and out of balance. I have no problem with full blooded music, but the opening part for me quickly becomes tiring because of the shear density and volume of sound. The second section setting Faust just doesn't seem to fit and is overly long and I often find myself tempted to skip to the utterly tremendous closing bars. As far as recordings go, I have Rattle, Solti, Tenstadt and Bernstein, but if I have to choose one it would be Sinopoli because he refrains from becoming too bombastic and overpowering.


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## flamencosketches

Mhutt74 said:


> I also find the 8th problematic, it always seems unwieldy and out of balance. I have no problem with full blooded music, but the opening part for me quickly becomes tiring because of the shear density and volume of sound. The second section setting Faust just doesn't seem to fit and is overly long and I often find myself tempted to skip to the utterly tremendous closing bars. As far as recordings go, I have Rattle, Solti, Tenstadt and Bernstein, but if I have to choose one it would be Sinopoli because he refrains from becoming too bombastic and overpowering.


I've heard Sinopoli's Mahler 8 get ruled out on account of the size of his chorus, ie. it's too small for what Mahler intended. Do you have any opinion on that? Maybe that's why Sinopoli's recording is most convincing for you. Mahler's 8th recently "clicked" with me. Now I find every moment of it to be quite convincing.

Welcome to the boards by the way.


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## Rogerx

Mhutt74 said:


> I also find the 8th problematic, it always seems unwieldy and out of balance. I have no problem with full blooded music, but the opening part for me quickly becomes tiring because of the shear density and volume of sound. The second section setting Faust just doesn't seem to fit and is overly long and I often find myself tempted to skip to the utterly tremendous closing bars. As far as recordings go, I have Rattle, Solti, Tenstadt and Bernstein, but if I have to choose one it would be Sinopoli because he refrains from becoming too bombastic and overpowering.


Just sit and listen let the music speak .


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## NLAdriaan

Mahler 8 is best served live.


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## flamencosketches

NLAdriaan said:


> Mahler 8 is best served live.


Do you know how much I'm kicking myself for having missed the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra's performance of Mahler 8 back in the fall, all because I "just didn't get it"...?


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> Do you know how much I'm kicking myself for having missed the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra's performance of Mahler 8 back in the fall, all because I "just didn't get it"...?


I missed hearing the San Francisco Symphony do Mahler 8 with Blomstedt. Why? A friend was with me, we were later than we meant in getting to Davies Symphony Hall (stupid Bay Area traffic! stupid Bay Area parking!) and the only seats left were very expensive. I forget how much, but we were still students (whatever student tickets they had were gone), and my friend said he couldn't afford it. I let him talk me out of it, I'm afraid. Still kicking myself!

Mahler 8 was tough for me as well. It's the least symphonic of all of them, and conceptually is hard for many to pull together. What is all this about? Why? The recording I tried for years was Solti, and I now think Solti's overall misconceived but undeniably spectacular performance was actually holding me back.

For me, 6 & 7 (two other of the supposedly difficult Mahler symphonies) were a cinch! Six is actually quite conventional in its symphonic structure, but never mind.

I'm still not sure I "get" Mahler 8. But I have certainly fallen in love with it, and I've realized I don't need to get it.

Another recording not mentioned here that I think is very good is Jansons with the Royal Concertgebuow Orchestra, on their own label.


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## Becca

I originally got to know M8 via a 4-track tape (!!) of the Abravanel/Utah S.O. done with massive choirs in the Mormon Tabernacle, a great introduction to the piece. Later exposure to the Haitink, Solti and Bernstein didn't do a lot for me. I generally liked the Tennstedt studio but it always seemed a bit under-powered. The combination of the Rattle/NYOGB and having 'attended' and got a copy of the Dudamel/LAPO/SBSO are at the top of my list with Rattle's studio CBSO coming in close behind them.


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## Becca

I have read very good things about a very recent (earlier this year?) performance with Mirga G-T/CBSO - does anyone know if a copy of that is floating around somewhere? I would think that Birmingham's Symphony Hall is a great venue for it.


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## flamencosketches

^I might check out the Rattle. Thanks. I'm trying to hear more of his Mahler. I haven't heard any recordings of Dudamel where it makes me think, "this is a great conductor", but people sure seem to love him and that Mahler 8 in particular. Is it strictly video or was it ever released on CD?


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## Becca

The Dudamel got very high praise when released. It is only on DVD but can be seen on YouTube


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## NLAdriaan

I am probably lucky to live in a tiny country with a big Mahler tradition. I have heard Mahler 8 live five times now. Haitink '(88), Chailly ('95), Gergiev ('10), Jansons '(11) and Nézet Séguin ('18). I particularly remember Chailly and Nézet Séguin for their clarity in this piece, which it absolutely requires. Every time however, it is a thrill and inspiration to hear this one live. 

On record, Mahler 8 is of course a more flattened experience. But on record, I also prefer Chailly, which is also included in his acclaimed Mahler/RCO box. I didn't hear the new recording of Nézet Séguin yet (Philadelphia, DG), but it didn't exactly get rave reviews. 

Actually, my very first CD was Mahler 8 with Ozawa, it just happened to be available at the Philips store where I could buy my first CD player at the introduction, jointly with Saint Saens organ symphony with Dutoit. Two absolute showpieces on CD, ready to impress anyone with the new 'noiseless' medium. The recording itself by Ozawa of course wouldn't survive the competition (unlike Dutoit!), but it still has its place in my collection.


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## flamencosketches

NLAdriaan said:


> *I am probably lucky to live in a tiny country with a big Mahler tradition.* I have heard Mahler 8 live five times now. Haitink '(88), Chailly ('95), Gergiev ('10), Jansons '(11) and Nézet Séguin ('18). I particularly remember Chailly and Nézet Séguin for their clarity in this piece, which it absolutely requires. Every time however, it is a thrill and inspiration to hear this one live.
> 
> On record, Mahler 8 is of course a more flattened experience. But on record, I also prefer Chailly, which is also included in his acclaimed Mahler/RCO box. I didn't hear the new recording of Nézet Séguin yet (Philadelphia, DG), but it didn't exactly get rave reviews.
> 
> Actually, my very first CD was Mahler 8 with Ozawa, it just happened to be available at the Philips store where I could buy my first CD player at the introduction, jointly with Saint Saens organ symphony with Dutoit. Two absolute showpieces on CD, ready to impress anyone with the new 'noiseless' medium. The recording itself by Ozawa of course wouldn't survive the competition (unlike Dutoit!), but it still has its place in my collection.


Gee, you think?  Luckily my country has a big Mahler tradition too, even my city-the Atlanta Symphony has recorded the whole cycle at least once over. But it's nothing like the Netherlands. I've heard great things about Ozawa, it's a certain critic I know's top pick. Opinions vary I suppose. I'm curious about that Nézet Séguin/Philadelphia as well but you're right, a lot of people have panned it for bad sound.


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## padraic

NLAdriaan said:


> I didn't hear the new recording of Nézet Séguin yet (Philadelphia, DG), but it didn't exactly get rave reviews.


I think it's wonderful. I attended that performance live.


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## Marc

flamencosketches said:


> Gee, you think?  Luckily my country has a big Mahler tradition too, even my city-the Atlanta Symphony has recorded the whole cycle at least once over. But it's nothing like the Netherlands. I've heard great things about Ozawa, it's a certain critic I know's top pick. Opinions vary I suppose. I'm curious about that Nézet Séguin/Philadelphia as well but you're right, a lot of people have panned it for bad sound.


I'm not 'specialized' in the 8th, but my favourites are Kubelik, Ozawa, Shaw, Chailly and Nagano. I think they all kind of share a combination of both freshness and warmth. I know it sounds contradictory, but I don't know how to put it in another way.


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## Marc

Mhutt74 said:


> I also find the 8th problematic, it always seems unwieldy and out of balance. I have no problem with full blooded music, but the opening part for me quickly becomes tiring because of the shear density and volume of sound. The second section setting Faust just doesn't seem to fit and is overly long and I often find myself tempted to skip to the utterly tremendous closing bars. As far as recordings go, I have Rattle, Solti, Tenstadt and Bernstein, but if I have to choose one it would be Sinopoli because he refrains from becoming too bombastic and overpowering.


Yeah, that 1st movement is also problematic for me, because I think it's actually tremendously shaped, but, as you say, it's mostly so LOUD. And playing it on a soft volume just doesn't work for this piece.


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## vincula

Bertini's live recording of Mahler's no.8 deserves an attentive audition. His Mahler cycle on EMI's a veritable bargain and very even too. I'm slowly digesting it. A different approach than, say, Kubelik, Berstein or Tennstedt.

The superb EMI-Toshiba recording and the acoustics of the Suntory Hall in Tokyo does indeed help him, but the WDR sound glorious, so he must get some credit as well.

This is a fair review of the box:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Jan07/Mahler_Bertini_3402382.htm

Regards,

Vincula


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## Barbebleu

vincula said:


> Bertini's live recording of Mahler's no.8 deserves an attentive audition. His Mahler cycle on EMI's a veritable bargain and very even too. I'm slowly digesting it. A different approach than, say, Kubelik, Berstein or Tennstedt.
> 
> The superb EMI-Toshiba recording and the acoustics of the Suntory Hall in Tokyo does indeed help him, but the WDR sound glorious, so he must get some credit as well.
> 
> This is a fair review of the box:
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Jan07/Mahler_Bertini_3402382.htm
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


I have this box but I'm only up to symphony three in the series so a while to go yet before I hear it!


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## Fredrikalansson

I've always loved this symphony, but I've also always had a passion for large scale choral works. I actually prefer it to symphonies 5, 6 and 9. But for a comparable work in terms of scale and structure, I always think of Elgar's Dream of Gerontius. Only 10 years separate them. Both works have two parts. Part I in both works is a kind of public utterance. In Gerontius, it's what Gerontius says aloud on his deathbed, and we hear from his priest, family, friends and household. Part I of the Mahler is a massing of choral forces for a communal prayer. It's like a Gothic cathedral: there's a lot of detail, but you need to step back to see the whole.

Part II in both works takes place in a spiritual world. Gerontius' soul begins his journey into the afterlife until he is judged. Faust's soul also journeys through a metaphysical landscape until it is redeemed through the intercession of the transfigured Gretchen. (Probably helps to have read the Goethe here for context.) I think the Mahler works best when it has the same sense of gentle forward motion as the Elgar where climactic moments never impede the forward pulse.

I think I've said elsewhere in this forum that I'm a fan of Haitink's recording, and it's for this very reason. He does a slow burn and never let's loses sight of the music's quieter transcendent side. I haven't heard a lot of the recordings mentioned here, but I like the Chailly, Wit and Bertini recordings very much. I find the Solti spectacular, but superficial. When it comes to the more reflective moments, he just runs out of steam. I think I've also mentioned my dislike of Rattle's EMI recording. His tendency to micro conduct is too pernicious: lots of exquisite detail, but he never let's you see the whole.

By the way, Schumann also set the same text in his Scenes from Faust. Listening to it made me realize how much better the Mahler is. Schumann's is pretty conventional 19th century choral writing; the Mahler is incandescent.


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## Isaac Blackburn

I found the eighth to be the most off-putting of Mahler's, but soon realized it was because I had a different expectation for the piece than Mahler did, and was finding it failing to meet my preconceived notion of what it should be.

My understanding vastly improved when I realized Mahler conceived of the Eighth very differently than he did his other works; it was to be a "work of philosophy" and a vessel for some of his most profound and fundamental beliefs, moreso than in his other symphonies. It's hard to compare it to the other symphonies because it's so different in character and outlook, but I agree with the man himself that this is one of his best works, and is certainly not less Mahlerian or any kind of failure.


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## vincula

I've just bought this album and I'm giving it a spin. Found it dirty cheap at a charity shop. Mahler no.8's slowly growing on me.









Mitropoulos did not have so many days left after this recording. SQ's sub-par considering the date, but I'm enjoying it, especially the second disc.

Regards,

Vincula


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## flamencosketches

vincula said:


> I've just bought this album and I'm giving it a spin. Found it dirty cheap at a charity shop. Mahler no.8's slowly growing on me.
> 
> View attachment 142382
> 
> 
> Mitropoulos did not have so many days left after this recording. SQ's sub-par considering the date, but I'm enjoying it, especially the second disc.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


That looks great! I'm going to have to look out for it.

For Mahler's 8th there are a couple recordings that have been giving me much joy over the past year: Bernstein/London (Sony), Haitink/RCO (on Philips, the one everyone hates), and Tennstedt/LPO (Live). I am so happy that the music has clicked with me. It's become one of my favorite Mahler symphonies.


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## julide

dismrwonderful said:


> This symphony is just too much for me. It is too big, too much sound. I get the impression that Mahler believes that if he only tries hard enough and loud enough that maybe God just might hear him, be impressed by him, or even notice him.
> 
> Dan


that's exactly how i felt listening to this tonight. i feel like we need to try to get god's attention more. more forces and more gargantuan music making.


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## Malx

flamencosketches said:


> That looks great! I'm going to have to look out for it.
> 
> For Mahler's 8th there are a couple recordings that have been giving me much joy over the past year: Bernstein/London (Sony), *Haitink/RCO (on Philips, the one everyone hates)*, and Tennstedt/LPO (Live). I am so happy that the music has clicked with me. It's become one of my favorite Mahler symphonies.


Which Haitink are you referring to flamenco? I'm not big into Mahler 8 but I do enjoy a recording I have of Haitink/RCO and am unaware that one of his recordings is not well regarded.
It won't change my opinion of the disc but my curiosity is piqued.


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## mparta

vincula said:


> I've just bought this album and I'm giving it a spin. Found it dirty cheap at a charity shop. Mahler no.8's slowly growing on me.
> 
> Grow on you like barnacles. There are so many recordings and this is a piece where I find that it's easier than almost any other Mahler to find things where I want to hear certain things a certain way. Thus the prowling through the weeds of all these different performances, better sound, my big thing is a better tenor, sopranos that aren't weak, I want to hear those ascending scales at the end of the first movement propel the ending.
> 
> Solti is good, Davis is good, Chailly is ok, the historical performances are all over the place. I think Mitropoulos was an amazing musician and I hate the way he was treated. The Stokowski is sonically challenged but this would have been his piece. I have others, a De Waart that's ok. I gave away Abbado, I thought it was very poor, and I'm not sure I remember the Sinopoli. Never heard Ozawa, Levine didn't record it.
> 
> Tough call. I appreciate the discussion about Mahler's sense of the text and and think that's important and am (not very ) ashamed to say that I think the second part is just a bunch of bunk in terms of the text actually meaning anything to me. Oh well, I can accept my shortcomings there, I have no wish to understand what drove these people culturally, since it drove them over the edge of the world and they tried to take the rest of us with them. Holy German art.
> 
> Oh, I left out Bernstein in Vienna with Riegel and an absolutely regal Jose Van Dam (redundant). But overall a middling recording.
> 
> But I love the symphony. Recently listened to the Philadelphia/Nezet-Seguin. Nope, that's not it.


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## flamencosketches

Malx said:


> Which Haitink are you referring to flamenco? I'm not big into Mahler 8 but I do enjoy a recording I have of Haitink/RCO and am unaware that one of his recordings is not well regarded.
> It won't change my opinion of the disc but my curiosity is piqued.


The CD looks like this:










From conversations I've had here and elsewhere, it seems I'm the only one who likes it.


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## Malx

If interested read the post below - accidental duplicated post


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## Malx

flamencosketches said:


> The CD looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From conversations I've had here and elsewhere, it seems I'm the only one who likes it.


Thats the one I've got and I enjoy it too, so you are not alone. I am not an the 8ths greatest fan but as the years pass there are a few I am enjoying.
Here's a question for you - do you like Solti's much lauded Mahler 8, I don't care for it but to be fair it is years since I took it down from the shelves.


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## Merl

This one's come the closest to cracking it for me but it still couldn't make me like the 8th. Thanks for the tip, RDB, and thanks to Mr Gielen for this earlier, fine effort (not from his cycle I'm sure) but I'm still no nearer appreciation.


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## flamencosketches

Malx said:


> Thats the one I've got and I enjoy it too, so you are not alone. I am not an the 8ths greatest fan but as the years pass there are a few I am enjoying.
> Here's a question for you - do you like Solti's much lauded Mahler 8, I don't care for it but to be fair it is years since I took it down from the shelves.


I do like it, but don't love it, and I feel sure Solti's missed the point of what it's all about. Still, it's a spectacle of great sonics and incredible playing and singing. I can't help but respect it. Interpretively I do feel that Haitink's recording comes closer to the point. Haitink had quite a uniquely keen understanding of late Mahler, in my book. I need to track down his RCO Mahler 9th...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Some time down the road (probably in a couple months) I’m going to do a mega-marathon survey of 8th recordings and post my reviews in this thread. I feel confident that I’ll find the one for me that will convert me from an admirer of this work into a lover of it (It took my doing that with the 3rd in order to love it). 

Re: Haitink, I can’t speak to his 8th, but that RCO 9th is one of my favorites of that symphony. It is really tremendously good, with opulent playing (as expected with that elite ensemble) and mesmerizing handling of the musical arguments. The first movement in particular, is really gripping. Haitink has a reputation for straightforward readings without much personality, but sometimes his unobtrusive attention to detail can be quite revealing, and the playing in itself of the orchestras he worked with is always great enough to stand on its own terms.


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> I do like it [Solti's Mahler 8], but don't love it, and I feel sure Solti's missed the point of what it's all about...


There are two moments where I like Solti's performance enough to keep a copy: the opening few minutes of the first movement, where the grandeur Solti achieves simply takes one's breath away, and the first ten or fifteen minutes of the second movement, which elevates the mystery and hushed atmosphere to spine-tingling heights. Otherwise, I agree with you. Solti swiftly loses his way by pushing every local climax to such a degree that the over all dramatic shape has little meaning. This is a very common Solti fault in my opinion. He chews the scenery far too much. But, even if for just a few moments, I won't deny this is an incredible Mahler 8.

Nonetheless, to listeners who care about this piece for more than just a couple highlights: you should look elsewhere.

Far more successful in terms of nurturing and discovering the symphonic & dramatic shape, greatly heightening the overall meaning and emotional impact, are the likes of Gielen, Jansons, and Boulez, the latter of whom for me induces the greatest frisson of any recording of Mahler 8 I have heard. YMMV

I'll soon be giving the Kubelík a go (finally bought the complete set) and am looking forward to his Eighth, which I've only heard part of once before and need to reassess, but also a few Mahler fans I trust have praised it highly.


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## Haydn70

I have heard/seen the Mahler 8 three times "in the flesh":

1) Salonen and the L.A. Phil at the Hollywood Bowl in 2008
I *HATE *the Hollywood Bowl and had no intention of going but a good friend of mine (my composition mentor and huge Mahlerite) convinced me, saying performances of the 8th are very rare (which I knew was true) and this would be better than nothing. It was barely better…all the usual drawbacks of the Hollywood Bowl and meagre performing forces (Symphony of 200?).

2) Dudamel and the L.A. Phil and the Simon Bolivar at the Shrine Auditorium in 2012
The promised to be much better. Two orchestras and many choral groups totaling 1,017 musicians. One big problem: dead acoustics. I expected that ff opening to blow my hair back but the sound was DEAD…like there was a curtain in front of the performers. Another negative (somewhat minor) was the roll-it-onto-the-stage cheesy organ that was used. All in all a big disappointment.

3) Dudamel and the L.A. Phil at Walt Disney Hall in 2019
Third time was a charm. Nowhere near the performing forces of the 2012 performance (346 this time) but more than the Salonen concert AND the superb acoustics of Walt Disney Hall...and a GREAT organ. Tremendous concert.


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## flamencosketches

Stupidly, I missed Mahler's 8th here in Atlanta right before the pandemic. Damn! I didn't like the music much at the time but I fell in love with the work not long afterward.


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## Malx

flamencosketches said:


> I do like it, but don't love it, and I feel sure Solti's missed the point of what it's all about. Still, it's a spectacle of great sonics and incredible playing and singing. I can't help but respect it. Interpretively I do feel that Haitink's recording comes closer to the point. Haitink had quite a uniquely keen understanding of late Mahler, in my book. I need to track down his RCO Mahler 9th...


I'd say that's a very fair assessment of Solti's 8th flamenco - I'm still in no rush to revisit it again, my memories are very much of the whole performance and recording being 'in your face' if you catch my drift.
Oddly the Gielen performance that Merl posted is one I turn to when the mood takes me I can also live with his later recording which is in the complete Mahler cycle he recorded with the SWR Sinfonieorchester.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> ..... Oddly the Gielen performance that Merl posted is one I turn to when the mood takes me I can also live with his later recording which is in the complete Mahler cycle he recorded with the SWR Sinfonieorchester.


Ive got to give a shout-out to Realdealblues for the Gielen recommendation. He's been trying to get me into the 8th for years (as did Mahlerian / NLA and a few others on here) and he was right about that disc as it's the closest I've come to 'getting' the 8th, bearing in mind I have multiple Mahler cycles. Becca had a good suggestion too (which I'd not even thought about). She suggested I *watch* a performance on YouTube as this might make it make more sense to me. As its coming to the Easter holidays I will definitely take this idea on board as I realised I had *never* watched a performance of the 8th (how bad is that for someone who's been listening to Mahler for donkeys years?)!!! I'll get back to you if that works. I hope so.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I feel like I’m the only person who likes the DG Bernstein from Salzburg. It’s one of the few that really involve me in the work. That’s my favorite after Horenstein.


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## mparta

I listened to the Philips RCO/Haitink, at least in bits and pieces today. It is on YouTube.

I think I would go back for an uninterrupted listen on the basis of some parts that impressed on the sample. Except... oh well, surprise, the tenor is inadequate. William Cochran. Strenuous would be kind.


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## BachIsBest

vincula said:


> Bertini's live recording of Mahler's no.8 deserves an attentive audition. His Mahler cycle on EMI's a veritable bargain and very even too. I'm slowly digesting it. A different approach than, say, Kubelik, Berstein or Tennstedt.


The approach of playing quickly before slowing right down at the end really pays dividends; the finale is truly transcendental!


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## DarkAngel

Any thoughts on a couple newer M8 below recently released?

The Fischer has only 2 long tracks which is a slight negative for me vs YNS which has generous number of tracks to quickly navigate the performance.....


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## mparta

DarkAngel said:


> Any thoughts on a couple newer M8 below recently released?
> 
> The Fischer has only 2 long tracks which is a slight negative for me vs YNS which has generous number of tracks to quickly navigate the performance.....


Philadelphia, great orchestra playing (who knew?) but i don't like the soloists and that does it for me.

I think this Fischer is the lesser of the 2 but have never heard any of his Mahler.

I did recently sit and listen to the Solti again. Completely different than I remembered. May have to hold forth when I listen again. I was surprised by the "distance" I perceived in the recording, again magnificent orchestra contribution and he has Lucia Popp. That's a lot. Rene Kollo is actually pretty good, if that's good enough.


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## MrMeatScience

I recall liking the Fischer when I heard it (shortly after it was released), but I haven't revisited it. Might do that this afternoon if I can find the time. I was excited for the YNS when it came out, since I loved his Mahler 1. Unfortunately, I agree that the soloists let this one down, as so often in this piece. The Eighth doesn't quite have the preponderance of great recordings that most of Mahler's other symphonies do...


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## DarkAngel

Mahler had the highest regard for his M8 and thought it was his finest work......



> I have just finished my Eighth-it is the greatest thing I have
> done thus far, and so strange in its form and content that it is
> impossible to write about it. Imagine that the universe begins
> to ring and resound, no longer with human voices but with
> revolving planets and suns.


His initial plan for 4 movement work was quickly dropped in favor of two movement structure with latin hymn "veni creator" opening followed by closing scence of Goethe's Faust (a different ending than other Fausts), Mahler said he could then see the entire works structure and very quickly composed the music as if taking dictation, entire work is vocals and choral singing with a positive redemptive theme having love conquering all with the forgiving mercy of god....Mahler conducted first performance in Munich and received the greatest public approval of any of his previous works, he passed away less than a year later

*For me the "secret" to enjoying M8 (like wagner) is to understand the backstory of the music*, things begin to snap into focus as you see the story arc, the great 2nd movement starts slowly for 15 minutes but then we have a flurry of action involving hermits, mythology figures, penitant women, virgin mary, multiple heavenly choirs of young boys and angels all giving the work a cosmic luminous quality, a glorious grand scence of final redemption for Faust with the "veni creator" theme brought back during the closing passages...... it is pure magic when you envision these scences in your mind

Many great M8s for me, I listened to 3 today on Tidal Masters including Nagano/HM, Bernstein/DG, Solti/Decca with a few more tomorrow 
























Hard to narrow to an absolute favorite, but I find quite a few very good performances and am not so critical of any soloist individual vocal performance since the choral and orchestral backgrounds are so powerful.......


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## DarkAngel

Listening to the justly famous 59 Horenstein LSO live from Royal Albert Hall, recorded with single stereo microphone (immense hall space) released commercially on BBC Legends label in decent early live stereo sound but if you love this performance you must hear/own the improved Pristine XR remaster!

Layers of fine detail clarified and easily heard with lower mids and bass greatly improved and cleaned up, the closing passage even more powerful with the mighty organ entry and multiple sets of tympani drum kits heard in proper weight and detail instead of a loud diffuse rumbling background, the brass fanfares soar to the heavens (cymbal strikes still sound harsh unfortunately)......also many more coughs and hacks have been removed over BBC release.

One caveat is that Andrew Rose reduced performance to two long tracks (BBC has multiple tracks) but if you download or use Pristine streaming player you can easily skip ahead if needed. I would have no arguments with anyone who said this was their favorite M8 performance, the closing climax now has visceral dramatic power a real stunner.....


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## betterthanfine

flamencosketches said:


> Haitink had quite a uniquely keen understanding of late Mahler, in my book.


I agree, but interestingly enough, Haitink himself has been quoted as saying that the 8th is the only symphony that he found he couldn't get his head around, interpretatively. Which might explain why many people find it one of his weaker recordings.


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## DarkAngel

Some comments for Bernstein's M8s, 66 LSO Sony and 75 VPO DG Salzburg Festival..........

















Just recently realized live VPO DG had to be taken from the 1975 archives and inserted in DG complete CD set since Bernstein had died before they could record a later studio/live version, at first I thought this was same performance as his Unitel Video set 1975 VPO 8th, but there are one or two cast changes mainly Edda Moser replaced by Margaret Price for CD set

As a side note still wonder why audio from Bernstein's video Mahler set has not been released on a stand alone CD set, really great performances

In general I find the 66 version a wilder ride, more forceful and exciting but perhaps glossing over some moments of refinement and sublime beauty in the process with heavenly choirs and Mater Gloriosa, the entry of the huge organ (see album cover) in final climax is overwhelming (perhaps overkill) but realy opens the heavens for Faust's ascension

The 75 VPO is more refined and elegant, moments of religious glory and vocal beauty are more fully realized without giving up much of the dramatic power and impact, the music paints the grand massive scenes better in my imagination, I would give this later performance a slight edge but definitely must own both

*Anyone else have comments on your preference of these two?*
(Brahmsianhorn likes the VPO me thinks)


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## perdido34

Solti's recording is afflicted with overload distortion in the climaxes, and remastering can't eliminate it. Wit's recording has great sound and a passionate performance with fine soloists.


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## Heck148

perdido34 said:


> Solti's recording is afflicted with overload distortion in the climaxes, and remastering can't eliminate it.


?? I don't hear a lot of distortion in Decca's sound on Solti's M8...obviously, this work is a great challenge to record, the sonorities are huge...yet quite soft in places, as well.
This was recorded in Vienna, the Sofiensal, iirc....the specially placed brass choirs were recorded separately and dubbed in.....


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## perdido34

Heck148 said:


> ?? I don't hear a lot of distortion in Decca's sound on Solti's M8...obviously, this work is a great challenge to record, the sonorities are huge...yet quite soft in places, as well.
> This was recorded in Vienna, the Sofiensal, iirc....the specially placed brass choirs were recorded separately and dubbed in.....


The overload distortion at climaxes is on the master tape and thus exists in all of the reissues. It's also heavily multi-miked.


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## Heck148

perdido34 said:


> The overload distortion at climaxes is on the master tape and thus exists in all of the reissues. It's also heavily multi-miked.


It's certainly multi-miked, for a work of that size, magnitude....multi-miking would be a foregone conclusion.
The distortion I don't find too distracting - given the sound levels produced
, it's really quite good - nothing like the distorted overloads of the early 50s CBS Walter/NYPO recordings, or some of the NBC recordings, or early Reiner/CSO recordings, where the orchestra simply overwhelms the recording system....


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## bz3

Listened to the Bernstein LSO today, a very worthwhile recording. I don't really have a favorite in this symphony even though I enjoy it. Maybe Boulez, that is the one I often pull for many Mahler symphonies. This thread has inspired me to seek out the Horenstein performance, and maybe a few others. 

Part 2 is really lovely, probably my favorite in all of Mahler alongside the 1st movement of the 9th. I really will have to see this live sometime assuming the virus regime doesn't fritter away our time on this mortal coil.


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## mparta

perdido34 said:


> The overload distortion at climaxes is on the master tape and thus exists in all of the reissues. It's also heavily multi-miked.


I don't hear any of that. The only thing that occurred to me on a recent relisten was that there was a sense of more distance to the orchestra than I remembered.


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## RufusGunderson

Do experienced listeners have any thoughts on Rattle/City of Birmingham, Nagano/Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony, Jansons/Royal Concertgebouw, or other slightly more recent recordings?


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## Enthusiast

^ I know and like (a lot) the Nagano but I don't think I have heard the others you mention.


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## CnC Bartok

RufusGunderson said:


> Do experienced listeners have any thoughts on Rattle/City of Birmingham, Nagano/Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony, Jansons/Royal Concertgebouw, or other slightly more recent recordings?


It won't go down well here, but I very much like the Rattle recording. It's very much up there with his best Mahler recordings, such as 2, 3 and his two EMI 10ths.

If you do want a very recent one, Adam Fischer's is a very satisfying performance. A real shame his little brother won't touch the work with a bargepole, but as cycles go, both Fischers have so far shown themselves to be very good, insightful Mahlerians.


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## Enthusiast

^ As I understand it many of the conductors who have given us complete sets didn't really want to include the 8th and I have seen suggestions that you can tell from the recordings that they did give us in the end. So all praise to Ivan Fischer if he is holding out. I agree that Adam Fischer's 8th is a good one - and, in fact, I often like his Mahler more than his brother's.


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## MarkW

Two miscellaneous comments:

-- I've always thought of the Veni Creator Spiritus as Version 2.0 of the Gloria from Missa Solemnis.

-- After much listening to Part II I realized that I had structural issues. Too many times he repeats a passage almost verbatim, once for instruments alone, once with vocals. I'm sure it's purposeful but it feels lazy to me, given GM's frequently propensity to never seem to step into the same river twice.


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## hammeredklavier

MarkW said:


> I've always thought of the Veni Creator Spiritus as Version 2.0 of the Gloria from Missa Solemnis.


O RLY?


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## MarkW

hammeredklavier said:


> O RLY?


Okay, you got me. (Obviously I was referring to Beethoven.


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## PathfinderCS

I've been a connoisseur of Mahler's 8th for a little while now. After the piece FINALLY clicked for me thanks to the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra & Marc Albrecht (YouTube) I have been diving into various other performances and want to experience as much as I can.

My favs are as follows:

1. Solti/Chicago Symphony
2. Boulez/Staatskapelle Berlin
3. Horenstein/London Symphony
4. Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony
5. Rattle/NYOGB (YT)
6. Nagano/Deutches Symphonic
7. Marc Albrecht/Netherlands Philharmonic (YT)
8. Dudamel/LA Philharmonic
9. Maazel/NY Philharmonic
10. Nezet-Seguin/Philadelphia

Keep in mind I haven't found any performance that I didn't like; I've enjoyed them all. Just not on the same level.


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## verandai

I loved the 8th symphony right from the start. Maybe I was lucky to have purchased a good recording (Tennstedt / London PO), but I guess my taste is also non-standard.

But I'll definetly also listen to recordings which were recommended more often in this thread! So far, I've heard only the recording mentioned above (many times), because I like it very much.


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## Waehnen

What do you think of the texts being so different in the 1st and 2nd Movement? Rather contrasting movements in other ways, too.


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## RobertJTh

It was Mahler's habit to use heavily contrasting texts in his works: no other composer would have a naive religious Wunderhorn-song answer a mystical text from Nietzsche's anti-Christian Also Sprach Zarathustra... (one wonders what Nietzsche would have thought about such a procedure? He was still alive when Mahler wrote the 3rd - but stark raving mad...)

But there's always a strong spiritual connection - between the chosen texts and the music and between the texts themselves.
In the case of the 8th, there's the Gregorian Pentecost hymn which is answered by the closing scene from Goethe's Faust II.
Wikipedia:
_Despite the evident disparities within this juxtaposition, the work as a whole expresses a single idea, that of redemption through the power of love. The choice of these two texts was not arbitrary; Goethe, a poet whom Mahler revered, believed that Veni creator embodied aspects of his own philosophy, and had translated it into German in 1820. Once inspired by the Veni creator idea, Mahler soon saw the Faust poem as an ideal counterpart to the Latin hymn._


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## GMB

I love Part one of Mahler8 but find Part two too wordy, plus I'm not a fan of Goethe's Faust, I prefer Marlowe's!
However I love the ending with the Chorus Mysticus, which is heavenly!
I have Solti's recording, which I prefer as it is more dramatic and more driven. I also have Bernstein,LSO with a wonderful coupling of Kindertotenlieder sung by Janet Baker.


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## PathfinderCS

Recently listened to Bernstein's recording with the London Symphony Orchestra, and now giving his version with the NY Philharmonic.

So far; two OUTSTANDING recordings that I am not sure where to place in my ranking haha. And the mighty organ just gives me so many great feelings when it makes its presence known.


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## HenryPenfold

verandai said:


> I loved the 8th symphony right from the start. Maybe I was lucky to have purchased a good recording (Tennstedt / London PO), but I guess my taste is also non-standard.
> 
> But I'll definetly also listen to recordings which were recommended more often in this thread! So far, I've heard only the recording mentioned above (many times), because I like it very much.


My experience is the opposite! I didn't enjoy it when I first listened to it and still don't care very much for it, even though I've attended performances of it in London 3 times and have many recordings. I will keep trying though!


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## verandai

Just listened to the recording of Bernstein with the Vienna PO, and I like it very much! I couldn't decide yet, if I even like it more than the recording I'm usually listening to (Tennstedt with London PO). But I don't have to decide that


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## Markbridge

*Gielen's M8*

Does anyone notice the difference between these covers? BTW, these are the same recording, however, notice the singers' name don't match exactly. Only one is correct.


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