# Late Mozart symphonies....your favorite recordings......



## Itullian

What are your favorite recordings of the later Mozart symphonies?
Say from 29 on up to 41.
Thanks :tiphat:


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## Ras

*I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff...*

I often listen to *the last 3 symphonies - 41 'Jupiter'* is my favorite.

These days I tend to like *big, oppulent, solemn, slow HIPster like Jordi Savall's new recording*. 
My favorite among these is probably still *Philip Herreweghe on Phi.*
The two recordings by *Frans Brüggen (a "recent" one on Glossa and an older one on Philips)* are also good.

I should revisit *N. Harnoncourt's recording on Sony with the Concentus Musicus Wien* haven't heard it for a long time.

*A bit more mainstream HIP approach is to be found if you follow the path of Immerseel with Anima Eterna or Charles McKerras with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra on Linn. *(You should avoid the earlier complete set with McKerras and the Prague Chamber Orchestra on Telarc - I don't like the sound on those recordings - I never listen to them).

I can post pictures and links if needed.


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## Heck148

late Mozart symphonies are core works of the basic orchestra repertoire...
they've been performed and recorded by virtually every great, and not-so-great conductor and orchestra...

my favorites -

Reiner - late ones, but no #38, with Chicago and PittsSO
Walter - NYPO and ColSO
Szell/Cleveland
Solti - only have 38, 39, 41. 

Reiner, Szell and Solti are all quite muscular, virile, yet with clear textures and good balances between sections.
Walter is more "romantic", he really leans into the tunes, esp slow movements, but it is so beautifully done, the phrasing warm and exquisite. I esp like the big, hefty woodwind sound of the early 50s NYPO section.


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## flamencosketches

Bruno Walter/Columbia SO. Karl Böhm/Vienna PO. Neville Marriner/ASMF. These are my favorites. But I still need to hear that new Jordi Savall!


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## joen_cph

Some - pretty diverse - favourites are Karajan/EMI, Harnoncourt/CtGebouw, Bruno Walter/stereo, Britten/ECO (no.40). 
More on LP, but I'd have to check.


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## flamencosketches

Also, Otto Klemperer is really good in the 40th symphony. Haven't heard much else he's done. For me, the old-school Teutonic conductors are best in Mozart.


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## jegreenwood

Szell was my intro to Mozart - and my imprint
I also like Klemperer, Mackerras and Walter. I need to listen again to the earlier Philharmonic recordings included in Sony's last Walter box.
Never cared for Bohm
Working my way through Pinnock, but I've been saving the last six.


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## bigshot

Bohm, Walter, Marriner. I don't like angular or strident Mozart.


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## Dirge

«The Last Six Symphonies» (Nos. 35-41)
:: Casals/Marlboro Festival Orchestra; Festival Casals Orchestra of Puerto Rico (No. 36) [Columbia '59-'68]

Casals and company's virile, muscular performances really bring these symphonies to life for me, making most modern-day accounts sound fussy and effeminate by comparison. The playing is a bit roughhewn, and inner detail is correspondingly coarsened and degraded, but the shaping of the music and the spirit of the music-making are so to my taste that such negative thoughts are swept away almost as soon as things kick off. Listeners possessed of a more inside-out/detail-oriented nature will not be so enamored, I'm sure, but crusty old farts who can't hear worth a damn in any event will be as pleased as Punch.

If the set has a weak link, it's the recording of "Linz," which is less well-played and -recorded than the rest: it was made in 1959 with the Festival Casals Orchestra of Puerto Rico, and so is the odd man out in this set. Still, it's a pretty good account, but it doesn't have that revitalized/rejuvenated Indian summer magic of the Marlboro accounts. The 3-CD set is from Sony Japan; I don't know if it's available otherwise.


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## DarkAngel

For HIP I play these often (Glover is a dark horse under the radar):
























For modern orchestra sound these get regular playback (Klemp was a surprise for me, love it):


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Continue modern orchestra:


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## Guest

Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra, Krips/Concertgebouw


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## Brahmsianhorn

My favorite is Bernstein/VPO. Some of his best stuff.


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## DavidA

If you like HIP Pinnock is very good on 40 and 41.


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## Mandryka

Itullian said:


> What are your favorite recordings of the later Mozart symphonies?
> Say from 29 on up to 41.
> Thanks :tiphat:


40, Bruggen (with two Orchestras), 
38 Harnoncourt CMW (on a DVD) , Peter Maag (can't remember which one, there are two!)

I can't comment about the other two with any confidence.


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## WildThing

Beecham's "Jupiter" symphony is very much a personal favorite, full of charm and a real sense of joy in music making.


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## bharbeke

For most of the later symphonies but the 41st, Adam Fischer with the Danish National Chamber Orchestra is wonderful. For 41, Levine, Herzog, or Bohm are good ones to try.


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## Brahmsian Colors

No special order....Walter, Klemperer, Szell


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## wkasimer

Modern instruments - Walter, Klemperer, Casals
HIP - Jacobs (38-41) and Brüggen


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## flamencosketches

I must hear Szell's Mozart. I think his austere style and clarity would be perfect for these symphonies.

Update: I just ordered a CD with Szell/Cleveland performing the 35, 40, and 41 symphonies. There goes my hiatus from buying CDs online. At $0.99, I couldn't resist.


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## DarkAngel

bharbeke said:


> For most of the later symphonies but the 41st, Adam Fischer with the Danish National Chamber Orchestra is wonderful. For 41, Levine, *Herzog*, or Bohm are good ones to try.


Just got this 2CD set very recently from Presto UK, a new worthy contender with great Naive sound in a very crowded field........a winner (sym 39, 40, 41)












> Update: I just ordered a CD with *Szell/Cleveland performing the 35, 40, and 41 symphonies*. There goes my hiatus from buying CDs online. At $0.99, I couldn't resist.


A classic that still sounds great today.......
Sony should assemble a cheap 4CD remastered Mozart boxset for Szell


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## Guest

The 40th has always been a favorite of mine - I have it conducted by Klemperer, Böhm, Immerseel, Jacobs, and Toscanini.


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## jegreenwood

DarkAngel said:


> . . .
> 
> A classic that still sounds great today.......
> Sony should assemble a cheap 4CD remastered Mozart boxset for Szell


I have a re-mastered 2-disc set from Sony Japan - Symphonies 28, 33, 35, 39, 40 and 41 (plus a couple of short pieces). Since then I bought the big Szell box.


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## PlaySalieri

The Mackerras set with the Prague orchestra always sounds to me remarkably fresh - stylish - good tempi. 

The market is awash with quality recordings though - many are worth listening to.

Its a mark of how good the symphonies are that we keep going from set to set, conductor to conductor.


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## CnC Bartok

He didn't get to do all of them, but the last handful are superb under Rafael Kubelik. (BRSO on CBS)

Bohm is good too, even better, Klemperer, but I find the last six or so are better on modern instruments, so I find Pinnock a bit disappointing.


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## PlaySalieri

CnC Bartok said:


> He didn't get to do all of them, but the last handful are superb under Rafael Kubelik. (BRSO on CBS)
> 
> Bohm is good too, even better, Klemperer, but I find the last six or so are better on modern instruments, so I find Pinnock a bit disappointing.


oddly enough I find Pinnock better with Haydn than Mozart


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## flamencosketches

Generally speaking, I think Haydn's symphonies reward a historically informed approach than do Mozart's. Of course, both can be great both HIP and modern.


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## CnC Bartok

stomanek said:


> oddly enough I find Pinnock better with Haydn than Mozart


Exactly my feeling. His 7 CDs of the Sturm und Drang works are an essential! His Mozart just sounds thin to me.....


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## realdealblues

If looking for recordings of "all" the late Symphonies:
Marriner
Bohm

For the well known ones:
Szell
Walter
Klemperer

Those would be my picks.


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## Merl

Mariner, Szell but best of all *Mackerras*! Can't believe his Mozart hasn't had any love yet. Le gasp.


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## Guest

Merl said:


> Mariner, Szell but best of all *Mackerras*! Can't believe his Mozart hasn't had any love yet. Le gasp.


If you're talking about the Telarc series, the jangling harpsichord in the background is an unwanted distraction. Enough to put me off it, since there are so many excellent alternatives. I also have a Linn recording which I found had excessive reverberation, with a distant recording perspective.


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## Rmathuln

#39 is my fave.
Herreweghe on Phi gets the most repeat listenings.
Harnoncourt 2013 is great.
Enjoy Pinnock too.
For big orchestra Böhm/BPO has had lots of hearings lately, but mostly because of the BluRay hiRes sound.

Have not tried Savall yet. Tempting.


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## Guest

It's not a symphony, but its "symphonic." Bohm's WPO recording of the Masonic Funeral Music is a miracle.


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## DarkAngel

Merl said:


> Mariner, Szell but best of all *Mackerras*! Can't believe his Mozart hasn't had any love yet. Le gasp.


Post #10......His SCO recordings for Linn Records label


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## jegreenwood

Merl said:


> Mariner, Szell but best of all *Mackerras*! Can't believe his Mozart hasn't had any love yet. Le gasp.


See post 7. [Stretching to 15 characters.]


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## Itullian

I didn't care for Mackerras' Telarc set.
I didn't care for the mushy sound of them and felt his interpretations were cold.

Havent heard his other set.


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## StlukesguildOhio

My single favorite of Mozart's symphonies is the 41st. My favorite recordings of the late symphonies include:









Marriner was my first real exposure to Mozart... and has remained a favorite.









Bohm was the second version of the late symphonies to enter my collection... and as with Marriner, remains a favorite.









Szell almost never fails IMO... and with the "hometown boys" his is a required recording.









I love the muscularity of Minkowski... and wish he had recorded more of the symphonies.









Truly fine!


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## Bourdon

This one I like very much,undervalued in my opinion.


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## Itullian

Bourdon said:


> This one I like very much,undervalued in my opinion.


Very good performances, but I couldn't take to the recorded sound.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Considering how much I admire Bernstein's Haydn, its surprising I've never picked up his recordings of Mozart's symphonies.

My most recent purchase of Mozart symphonies is that of Krips... which I quite like:


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## Guest

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Considering how much I admire Bernstein's Haydn, its surprising I've never picked up his recordings of Mozart's symphonies.
> 
> My most recent purchase of Mozart symphonies is that of Krips... which I quite like:
> 
> View attachment 122923


Yes, that's my plush guilty pleasure set. Usually I go for more taut readings.


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## Heck148

Itullian said:


> I didn't care for Mackerras' Telarc set.
> I didn't care for the mushy sound of them and felt his interpretations were cold..


Agree, that bloated, tubby sound that Telarc often gets, puts me off too...


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## Guest

Heck148 said:


> Agree, that bloated, tubby sound that Telarc often gets, puts me off too...


That surprises me. Telarc (in its prime) recorded with a simple array of 3 microphones, and to my ears produced some of the most natural sound in the industry. These particular recordings don't appeal to me for reasons I mentioned above (use of harpsichord 'continuo').

My main disappointment is the obsession they had with Frederick Fennell and his bass drum, during the early days.


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## Merl

Baron Scarpia said:


> If you're talking about the Telarc series, the jangling harpsichord in the background is an unwanted distraction. Enough to put me off it, since there are so many excellent alternatives. I also have a Linn recording which I found had excessive reverberation, with a distant recording perspective.


No i meant the Linn.


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## DarkAngel

*For Tidal HD streaming..........*

I have the Mozart 225 boxset saved as a favorite (symphony section) has the advantage (?) of using 6 different conductors employing HIP style, Pinnock has the largest share doing most of the early symphonies but then later symphonies 25-41 use mixture of performances by:
-Pinnock
-Hogwood
-Gardiner
-Bruggen
-Minkowski

*







*


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## flamencosketches

Well, Szell/Cleveland is great. Just how Mozart should sound, to my ears. Thanks for the tip, boys.


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## jegreenwood

flamencosketches said:


> Well, Szell/Cleveland is great. Just how Mozart should sound, to my ears. Thanks for the tip, boys.


Try his Haydn next.


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## flamencosketches

jegreenwood said:


> Try his Haydn next.


Will do! My tastes in Haydn are a little different; I tend to prefer leaner sounds, full-blown HIP at times. Frans Brüggen's Haydn is great. But I see there's a 4CD on Sony with Szell conducting a handful of late Haydn symphonies. Going to keep my eyes peeled for that one.


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## PlaySalieri

CnC Bartok said:


> Exactly my feeling. His 7 CDs of the Sturm und Drang works are an essential! His Mozart just sounds thin to me.....


I remember being in a CD shop in the late 80s and the owner put on the hornsignal - Pinnock. I was so amazed I bought it.

So when I heard Pinnock was doing Mozart I thought - great.

Imagine my disappointment.


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## starthrower

What about Kubelik? There's a nice Sony 7 CD set with late Mozart, Schumann 1-4, and Bruckner 3-4.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> What about Kubelik? There's a nice Sony 7 CD set with late Mozart, Schumann 1-4, and Bruckner 3-4.


See my post, No.25.

Once again you display impeccable taste....:tiphat:


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## starthrower

CnC Bartok said:


> See my post, No.25.
> 
> Once again you display impeccable taste....:tiphat:


Actually, I don't know jack about Mozart symphony recordings but thanks for the kind words. Walter's Columbia recording of No.36 popped up on my YouTube feed and I really enjoyed it. I was thinking of buying the 10 CD set by Bohm that I found super cheap from a library sale but one reviewer said the remastered sound was very harsh. Earlier editions were recommended. So maybe I'll just get the Kubelik.


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## Kiki

Had been allergic to Mozart for the best part of forty years.

When I heard Harnoncourt's late recordings with the Concentus Musicus Wien, I had had high hopes, but his sometimes combative (or shocking?) style didn't really work for me. The ironic thing is that, I am usually quite into that idiosyncratic side of his music making...

Until I heard Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations. From then on Mozart was beginning to make sense to me.

Then I realised one of my favourite conductors, Marc Minkowski, had recorded 40 & 41 years ago. Why didn't I discovered this record earlier? Yes, again, Mozart became listenable.

That's my confession.


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## starthrower

Kiki said:


> Had been allergic to Mozart for the best part of forty years.


Same here! I bought a CD of 40-41 in 1984 but never bothered with anything else. I've come to enjoy the piano sonatas, some of the concertos, and the late symphonies. The Kubelik sounds good to me so I'm going to grab that Sony set.


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## CnC Bartok

I've been moderately allergic (too strong a word for me tbh) for a good thirty years or so. I hope that means I'll make more sense of him in a decade's time?

I like Mozart very much, but it has never really metamorphosed into love, as it has done with, say, Haydn. I prefer the pieces he wrote that are less immediate (maybe by that I mean less famous?) the Symphonies just before 40 & 41, where without such perfect/catchy material he still does inspired things. Does that make any sense?

I also think he sounds better away from the world of HIP. Chamber-like forces, great! Love Tate's recordings, Mackerras in later years too. Big band stuff? Well, I think very highly of Kubelík in everything, and I am highly attached to boring old Klemperer, because he's anything but boring. But the period instrument recordings I have heard, especially Pinnock (not his fault at all) just doesn't sound quite as convincing. Not as Mozart anyway.

I am sure the Symphony could also be described as "not Mozart's most important genre". Don't care!


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## CnC Bartok

jegreenwood said:


> Try his Haydn next.


Re: George Szell

I'd echo that wholeheartedly!


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## Rmathuln

I dearly love the last three symphonies.
Harnoncourt's last traversal of the three should not be missed.










But my favorite HIP set is from Herreweghe on PHI.


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## Itullian

Bohm is my reference set.

Also this....


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## starthrower

^^^
I grabbed a cheap used copy! I did a bit of listening to Nos. 36 & 38 on YT last night. I liked the sound of Krips, and Klemperer as well. In addition to that hard to find Krips 6 CD set, the same recordings are available in a 12 disc set with Marriner doing the early symphonies. And the used copies are cheaper that the 6 CD set.


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## Itullian

I have the Marriner/Krips set . It's great.
I was just gonna recommend it.


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## Granate

*Historical Mozart symphony recordings*






















...


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## Granate

*Historical Mozart symphony recordings (post)*






Somehow I'm quite unstable and have been wanting to get something outside opera or romanticism. I still have no Great Mozart symphonies in my collection and I saw that the label Memories had on sale many rarities from very classic conductors, in live or studio recordings in Mono. I'm going to do a serious Mozart challenge in 2021, but I would like to own some of these performances before they go OOP. Two I want for sure are the Klemperer and Furtwängler recordings, but Kna, Toscanini and especially Münch and Kleiber sound very tempting.

I have here some excerpts so you can notice the differences, despite the different recording quality. What are historical interpretations you would reccomend?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Granate said:


> Somehow I'm quite unstable and have been wanting to get something outside opera or romanticism. I still have no Great Mozart symphonies in my collection and I saw that the label Memories had on sale many rarities from very classic conductors, in live or studio recordings in Mono. I'm going to do a serious Mozart challenge in 2021, but I would like to own some of these performances before they go OOP. Two I want for sure are the Klemperer and Furtwängler recordings, but Kna, Toscanini and especially Münch and Kleiber sound very tempting.
> 
> I have here some excerpts so you can notice the differences, despite the different recording quality. What are historical interpretations you would reccomend?


Regarding historical performances, I would definitely check out Beecham and Walter. Beecham brings out the impish playfulness and Walter brings out the singing beauty.

Furtwangler is my favorite conductor and I had no idea he did a Mozart 40. Have to hear that when I get the chance!


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## Merl

I was listening to Wordsworth's Naxos recordings of symphonies 27, 33 and 36 the other day. Although the Naxos set is a mixed bag there are a few excellent discs in that set and that's probably the best, for me. Beautiful performances.


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## Josquin13

I. Regarding recordings on modern instruments, I am as much, if not more, drawn to the quality of the orchestras playing Mozart's symphonies, as I am to the conductors. For me, the greatest Mozart orchestras in the world used to be (& I hope still are) the Staatskapelle Dresden, Camerata Salzburg Orchestra, and the English Chamber Orchestra. Hence, the Mozart symphony recordings by those orchestras tend to be the ones that I've most liked over the decades, at least, on modern instruments:

1. Camerata Salzburg Orchestra, or the Camerata Academica des Mozarteums Salzburg--with conductors Sandor Végh and Hans Graf (a complete cycle on Capriccio). I find Végh's conducting of the symphonies to be especially red-blooded and imaginative, refreshingly so, and the Camerata Salzburg plays fantastically well for him.

--Végh, nos. 40 & 41 "Jupiter" (and "La clemenza di Tito" overture): 



--Végh, no. 35 live: 



--Végh, Symphony K. 81: 




--Graf, no. 39, etc.: 



--Here's the rest of Graf's Salzburg cycle:









































2. Staatskapelle Dresden--with conductors Herbert Blomstedt, Otmar Suitner, and Sir Colin Davis.

--Blomstedt--I'd consider Blomstedt's Mozart in Dresden to be underrated: 
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...lomstedt+mozart&qid=1579311691&s=music&sr=1-4
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...lomstedt+mozart&qid=1579311691&s=music&sr=1-3

--Suitner:




https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSNPMQ/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Otmar-Suitner-Staatskapelle-Dresden/dp/B004HWOH0Q
ETC.

--Davis:
Davis, no. 40: 



https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Late-...phonies&qid=1579311849&s=music&sr=1-2-catcorr

3. English Chamber Orchestra, with Sir Jeffrey Tate--a complete cycle on EMI: https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Compl...zart+symphonies&qid=1579311900&s=music&sr=1-1, and under Benjamin Britten (although Britten's Mozart interpretations are a bit too spacious & slow and non-HIP for my tastes nowadays). I've not heard Daniel Barenboim's ECO recordings. There's a reason why such esteemed Mozart pianists like Murray Perahia, Mitsuko Uchida, and Alicia de Larrocha all chose to record their Mozart piano concertos with the ECO, as back then, it was widely considered one of the finest Mozart orchestras in the world.

Tate, Symphony no. 40: 




In addition, I've liked a number of Mozart conductors, as well: most notably, Bruno Walter, who had a tremendous understanding of the musical content of these works (albeit in mono sound). Here is Walter's Symphony no. 41, "Jupiter", for instance: 



. During the digital era, I've also liked Emmanuel Krivine, who recorded Mozart Symphonies with two different orchestras--the Philharmonia Orchestra and Sinfonia Varsovia, on the Denon label: 



 and 



. But unfortunately, Krivine's cycle was left finished, due to the demise of Denon: which is too bad, since the cycle had everything going for it--superb sound quality, terrific playing, and excellent, stylish Mozart conducting. Honorable mention goes to Nikolaus Harnoncourt & the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields.

(I've not heard Adam Fischer's recent cycle with the Danish Chamber Orchestra, but am curious about it. As for Sir Charles Mackerras, I disliked his Telarc cycle in Prague enough not to be willing to try his later Scottish recordings... although their Mozart Requiem was good...)

There's also Leonard Bernstein's luxurious, big band Mozart with the Vienna Philharmonic to consider, on DG, as well--which derives from the conductors more controversial late period. Personally, I like Bernstein's Mozart less than I used to (although I continue to enjoy his Haydn). Besides, the Staatskapelle Dresden is a better Mozart orchestra than the Vienna Philharmonic, in my view: 



.

Finally, I agree that Otto Klemperer was surprisingly spirited in Mozart, as was Sir Thomas Beecham, with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. However, both conductors offer conducting & orchestral playing that is decidedly 'old school' Mozart: 



.

II. On period instruments, my favorite recordings have come from the following 5 conductors and period bands (& for the most part, I've placed them in order of preference):

1. Christopher Hogwood, The Academy of Ancient Music, on L'Oiseau-Lyre (now Decca). I believe this is still the most complete cycle on record, as it offers alternative versions of a number of symphonies, as well as single movements, etc.. Hogwood's no. 31 "Paris" & no. 38 "Prague" symphonies are special favorites of mine. Back in the 1980s, these two performances blew the cobwebs off of all the previous stodgy 'old school' Mozart interpretations that I'd heard, especially Karl Bohm's very Brahmsian interpretations--which are played in a style that Mozart wouldn't have recognized. Indeed Hogwood and the AAM changed how I viewed Mozart's music. Here, at last, I felt like I'd finally heard Mozart for the first time. I told the AAM's concert master that--at a dinner party back in the 1980s, and he looked at me like I was crazy. But I meant it, and still do. Hogwood recordings of Mozart's Symphonies nos. 25, 31, & 38 go with me to my desert island!:

Symphony no. 31 "Paris": 



Symphony no. 38 "Prague": 



Symphony no. 25: 













2. Frans Bruggen, Orchestra of the 18th Century, on Philips (& to a lesser extent, the last 3 Symphonies recorded live from Rotterdam in 2010, on Glossa, which are inferior to Bruggen's earlier Philips recordings, IMO: 



 ):

Symphonies nos. 39, 39, 40, 41: 



Symphony no. 35 "Haffner": 



ETC.

3. Ton Koopman, Amsterdam Baroque Soloists. In my opinion, Koopman is a very underrated Mozart conductor. He tends to be at his best in the early to middle symphonies (and the Requiem--both individually on Erato, & in this box set: https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...opman+mozart&qid=1579309400&s=music&sr=1-23):





https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...+koopman+mozart&qid=1579309248&s=music&sr=1-9
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...koopman+mozart&qid=1579309248&s=music&sr=1-11
https://www.allmusic.com/album/release/mozart-symphonies-nos-31-34-35-36-38-41-mr0002109864

4. Trevor Pinnock, The English Concert (an excellent complete set). I wasn't entirely crazy about Pinnock's Mozart on first impression, but it has grown on me over the years with further listening, and has eventually won me over. Plus, Pinnock's cycle is better recorded than Hogwood's, on the whole, considering that many of Hogwood's L'Oiseau-lyre recordings were recorded during the analogue era (though not the late Symphonies nos. 35-41, which were digital): 



.

5. Jos van Immerseel, Anima Eterna:

https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Concertos-Sonatas-W-MOZART/dp/B00B1VP2RS
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symph...a+eterna+mozart&qid=1579309158&s=music&sr=1-7

Nikolaus Harnoncourt & the Concentus Musicus Wien were also very good in the early symphonies: 



. I've been less enthusiastic about Rene Jacobs' Mozart's symphonies, though oddly enough, I've liked him the operas (where his approach seems to work better), but maybe I need to go back and have another listen: 



.


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## Allegro Con Brio

As always, Josquin13's surveys are tough to beat! Bruno Walter is probably my all-time favorite Mozart conductor; I find his way of phrasing just exquisite. The old-school Germans- Bohm and Klemperer, are not far behind. I find Bohm to be more nuanced than Klemperer, but Otto's signature orchestral discipline and commitment I find hard to beat in some works, like the 40th. Beecham, Szell, and Davis are other modern-instrument favorites. My favorite HIP Mozart I've heard is Jordi Savall's 2019 recording of the last three symphonies. It's big, bold, brash, and just plain fun.


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## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio--Thanks. I've not heard Savall's Mozart, but would like to. As for the "old German" conductors, if Johannes Brahms considered the German conductors of his day to be too heavy in their approach to his four symphonies (preferring French conductors), as he told a young Pierre Monteux, imagine what Mozart would have thought?

That's one of the reasons why I like Bruno Walter's Mozart so much, as he understands the style of this music unusually well for a conductor of his era, in addition to his "exquisite" phrasing, as you say: which carries so much musical meaning that you can't argue it isn't in the score. I don't think Mozart would have had any complaints, nor Brahms, either. However, with Karl Böhm I'm not so sure. I'd definitely put Böhm and Klemperer behind Walter, as well.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> Allegro Con Brio--Thanks. I've not heard Savall's Mozart, but would like to. As for the "old German" conductors, if Johannes Brahms considered the German conductors of his day to be too heavy in their approach to his four symphonies (preferring French conductors), as he told a young Pierre Monteux, imagine what Mozart would have thought?
> 
> That's one of the reasons why I like Bruno Walter's Mozart so much, as he understands the style of this music unusually well for a conductor of his era, in addition to his "exquisite" phrasing, as you say: which carries so much musical meaning that you can't argue it isn't in the score. I don't think Mozart would have had any complaints, nor Brahms, either. However, with Karl Böhm I'm not so sure. I'd definitely put Böhm and Klemperer behind Walter, as well.


I totally get why "old German" conducting (especially in Mozart and Haydn, where the style is so anachronistic) is so polarizing. I wouldn't pretend to say that's how Mozart heard it in his day, because that's definitely not the case. But for me, the way guys like Klemperer can inspire a unifying vision in an orchestra and craft a slowly unfolding, intensely disciplined performance often provokes an overwhelming response from me. For example, the minuet of the 40th Symphony. I came close to tears the first time I heard the Klemperer version, because the emotional rawness of this music had never hit me in its full brunt before. I find it fascinating how our musical journeys differ, since your description of your encounter with Hogwood's recordings against the old-school standard of the day is exactly opposite to my experience- I actually didn't care much for Mozart's symphonies until I heard Szell and Klemperer. But we all experience music in different ways, and that's part of the beauty of art. The sound of HIP ensembles normally just doesn't meet my ears in a pleasant way (with one exception- I really love the hollow sound of period timpani). I always found that comment from Brahms interesting, because my modern ears simply can't imagine hearing movements like the finale of his 1st Symphony or the first movement of the 4th with chamber-like textures. Skilled conductors like Klemperer can keep a large ensemble but still bring out the details with success; I think the split violins really help in Otto's case. But I admit that in Bohm, the detail can be obscured, even though I consistently agree with his tempi.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I totally get why "old German" conducting (especially in Mozart and Haydn, where the style is so anachronistic) is so polarizing. I wouldn't pretend to say that's how Mozart heard it in his day, because that's definitely not the case. But for me, the way guys like Klemperer can inspire a unifying vision in an orchestra and craft a slowly unfolding, intensely disciplined performance often provokes an overwhelming response from me. For example, the minuet of the 40th Symphony. I came close to tears the first time I heard the Klemperer version, because the emotional rawness of this music had never hit me in its full brunt before. I find it fascinating how our musical journeys differ, since your description of your encounter with Hogwood's recordings against the old-school standard of the day is exactly opposite to my experience- I actually didn't care much for Mozart's symphonies until I heard Szell and Klemperer. But we all experience music in different ways, and that's part of the beauty of art. The sound of HIP ensembles normally just doesn't meet my ears in a pleasant way (with one exception- I really love the hollow sound of period timpani). I always found that comment from Brahms interesting, because my modern ears simply can't imagine hearing movements like the finale of his 1st Symphony or the first movement of the 4th with chamber-like textures. Skilled conductors like Klemperer can keep a large ensemble but still bring out the details with success; I think the split violins really help in Otto's case. But I admit that in Bohm, the detail can be obscured, even though I consistently agree with his tempi.


Couldn't agree more. I like the old Germans in Mozart, and haven't heard any HIP Mozart yet that I've enjoyed (unlike, say, Haydn or Bach, where I usually prefer the HIP guys). My top Mozart conductors are Walter, Böhm, and Marriner not too far behind. I really like what I've heard of Szell and Klemperer in Mozart too, need to hear more of both.

I'll look into the Tate/ECO Mozart cycle. I am always impressed with what I've heard of that orchestra's Mozart recordings, usually piano concertos with the big names.


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## starthrower

I have Bruno Walter, Klemperer, and Szell. All good but I like Walter.


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## jegreenwood

starthrower said:


> I have Bruno Walter, Klemperer, and Szell. All good but I like Walter.


For Walter, stereo Columbia Symphony Orchestra or mono NYPO?


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## Merl

Whilst I'm partial to old-style Mozart I still enjoy HIP Mozart. Some aren't keen on Bruggen, Immerseel, Fischer et al but there's some good stuff in there. I thoroughly agree with the sentiment about period timpani, though, the thwack of those timpani is a sound I love rather than a dull thud (see also period Beethoven, played with hard sticks). Immerseel's Mozart I find particularly pleasing to the ear (those zesty woodwinds are just lovely).


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## Heck148

jegreenwood said:


> For Walter, stereo Columbia Symphony Orchestra or mono NYPO?


I like both....i guess I slightly favor the NYPO versions...big band, for sure, but I love the big, husky woodwind playing....great section in those years...Walter was a great Mozartean...really brought forth the singing, melodic flow...he wasn't afraid to lean into the melody.


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## starthrower

jegreenwood said:


> For Walter, stereo Columbia Symphony Orchestra or mono NYPO?


I only have the stereo. I'm not a massive Mozart fan so I don't plan on buying anymore recordings.


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## sleepingdancer

In old big band style Mozart I vote for Klemperer and Fricsay. Among HIPsters I quite like Reneé Jacobs on Harmonia Mundi. Middle of the road and my real favorite these days: Harnoncourt / Concertgebouw.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Whilst I'm partial to old-style Mozart I still enjoy HIP Mozart. Some aren't keen on Bruggen, Immerseel, Fischer et al but there's some good stuff in there. I thoroughly agree with the sentiment about period timpani, though, *the thwack of those timpani is a sound I love *rather than a dull thud (see also period Beethoven, played with hard sticks). Immerseel's Mozart I find particularly pleasing to the ear (those zesty woodwinds are just lovely).
> 
> View attachment 129305


Isn't it just swell? Especially in, say, the 1st movement of the 39th with that sweeping, pompous introduction. I like my timpani to pop out of the sonic picture and slap me in the face. This is one big reason why HIP Beethoven often resounds with me (I'm OK with some HIP Mozart and Bach, but can't stand it in Schubert). Sometimes, I like to hear those sharp, crisp attacks, especially with those thunderous timpani whacks in the scherzo of the 9th. I know that sounds strange coming from a major Furtwangler fan, but there's always room for different interpretations depending on the day.


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## Granate

Which should I go for? Are the Andromeda recordings live or in studio? Prestoclassical says that 29, 36 & 39 were recorded in various days for each.

[HR][/HR]

























I'm keeping an eye on these three, because there's a missing Symphony 34 KV 338 in all of the purchases.


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## jegreenwood

^^^^ Re: your question on the Andromeda recording.

Did the Columbia Symphony Orchestra ever perform live? It was put together by Columbia from members of the orchestra, and there were versions in NYC and L.A. depending on where the conductor was. In the early 50s Walter recorded Mozart with the NYPO. I have these recordings in the 2013 Walter box set. (I have the last six in stereo by the Columbia Symphony Orchestra from an old Odyssey CD release.)


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## Heck148

jegreenwood said:


> ^^^^ Re: your question on the Andromeda recording.
> 
> Did the Columbia Symphony Orchestra ever perform live? It was put together by Columbia from members of the orchestra, and there were versions in NYC and L.A. depending on where the conductor was. In the early 50s Walter recorded Mozart with the NYPO. I have these recordings in the 2013 Walter box set. (I have the last six in stereo by the Columbia Symphony Orchestra from an old Odyssey CD release.)


There was an east coast and a west coast Columbia symphony....West coast was featured in most all of Walter's recordings..he may have done a few with east coast, but primarily, it was west coast, which was essentially LAPO, augmented with some Hollywood studio musicians...
East Coast Columbia SO was composed of NYC free-lancers, mostly contracted by bassoonist Loren Glickman...it was featured in many of the Stravinsky conducted recordings, as well as some by Szell snd Bernstein.


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## jegreenwood

Heck148 said:


> There was an east coast and a west coast Columbia symphony....West coast was featured in most all of Walter's recordings..he may have done a few with east coast, but primarily, it was west coast, which was essentially LAPO, augmented with some Hollywood studio musicians...
> East Coast Columbia SO was composed of NYC free-lancers, mostly contracted by bassoonist Loren Glickman...it was featured in many of the Stravinsky conducted recordings, as well as some by Szell snd Bernstein.


My prior post should have read "from other orchestras." I thought I read that a number of members of the NYC version were from NYPO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Symphony_Orchestra


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## Heck148

Yes, it is certainly possible that members of NYPO and MetOpera were hired to play in the east coast ColSO. I've not seen the personnel rosters of the recording sessions.


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## Granate

So do you say that none of these performances released by Andromeda is really live? And that all belong to CBS aka Sony Classical catalogue? Then there may be a chance I can get them through a future release in a budget box, as Sony has released the RCA Toscanini Beethoven cycle.

All the early mature symphonies are performed by Columbia and the others by the New York Philharmonic. All were recorded in New York but that may mean that almost all the studio sessions for each symphony were done within a day, except a few ones.

Presto Classical link

Maybe I should wait and just get the live ones that are from France or Vienna, including some New York ones.


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## Heck148

Do they give the recording dates?? I've seen a full discigrsphy of Walter's recordings online...that should provide the dates of the recordings...


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## Merl

https://www.discogs.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-The-Columbia-Symphony-Orchestra-Mozart-Symphonies-25-28/release/3736463


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