# In Praise of the Fortepiano



## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Gramophone Magazine has recently posted its nominees for its best records of 2014 in various categories. One has caught my eye - or rather, ear. It's a performance of a pair of Beethoven's Piano Trios #6, op. 70, and #7, op. 97 ("Archduke"), with Isabelle Faust on violin, Jean-Guihen Queyras on cello and Alexander Melnikov on fortepiano (Harmonia mundi, 2014). While Faust and Melnikov have generally recorded with modern instruments, here both have switched over to period instruments.










The record has received quite dazzling reviews. Here's a typical one:



> "The first thing you notice here is the timbre of the fortepiano, lightening the overall texture: in Melnikov's hands it sometimes sounds like a gypsy dulcimer... The "Archduke" receives a delightfully intimate performance: the voicing of each instrument comes across with equal clarity, and the great Andante cantabile casts its spell afresh."-Financial Times (March 8, 2014)


Note his emphasis on the fortepiano as a "gypsy dulcimer". Melnikov plays here on a restored 1826 Graff fortepiano. I've listened to this on spotify as well as clips on Harmonia mundi's website. The sound is extraordinary and the music itself has a freshness that I've not heard. (And I much admire the old Beaux Arts Trio performance of these). So it's now at the top of my wishlist.

A few years ago, it's a recording that I likely would have avoided. While I have been a fan of original instruments and historically informed performances for nearly 40 years, I have been rather slow to embrace performances with fortepiano. It has been often berated as sounding tinny, too much like a "toy piano." Yet it was the instrument that Haydn and Mozart and even Beethoven wrote for (though, I gather, that in Beethoven's case, instrument makers were making rapid strides even during his lifetime so that the sound of the best instruments was changing even as he was composing his masterpieces). Well, I'm now sold on it.

Please note the title: "*In praise*." It's ok to give critical reactions. But I'm interested in people's _positive_ responses to the instrument, or their _shift to the positive_ in their response to the instrument. So my questions:

(1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano? 
(2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a _positive way_-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in _a new way_? 
(3) What recordings exemplify the instrument at its best?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Oh, wow! I live for fortepiano!

My favorites are:

the complete Beethoven keyboard sonatas with Ronald Brautigam

Mozart Keyboard Sonatas with Kristian Bezuidenhout

Mozart complete keyboard concertos with Jos van Immerseel

At first, listening was quite an adjustment from the prettified sounds of the modern Steinway Grand.
But adjust I did and now I will only listen to Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven keyboard works on fortepiano.

This is the instrument these composers wrote for and with reduced period orchestra and proper pitch, this is now my preferred way to listen to this great music.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Oh, wow! I live for fortepiano!
> 
> My favorites are:
> 
> ...


hp, I was hoping you might jump in here because I had seen your positive remarks on the fortepiano at various junctures. Thanks for the recommendations. I need to explore Bezuidenhout's cycle, which I've read very good things about. Concerning your recommendation of Immerseel: I had planned to order that very box set, but it's out of print and the various Amazon sellers have out-of-range prices (in the $200 range). So I'm taking a bit of a risk and am beginning to order some of Ronald Brautigam's Mozart concertos. The first volume in the cycle (which pairs #9 and #12) got one really negative review (by David Hurwitz -- who can be very mean-spirited and doesn't seem to like period performances in general), but the subsequent volumes have gotten some excellent reviews (but not from Hurwitz). I have two volumes on order (#24/#25 and #20/#27). I've previewed some of these on Spotify, and I have had very good experience with BIS's sound quality. Have you heard any from Brautigam's Mozart concerto cycle? Thanks again for the recommendations.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ha! Ha! You are right! I am a fortepiano fanatic!!

I would use "FORTEPIANO" as my rear vanity license plate on my car except there's too many letters and the inmates at Florida State Penitentiary might object to making it.

You are certainly welcome!!!


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Alypius said:


> (1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
> (2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a _positive way_-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in _a new way_?
> (3) What recordings exemplify the instrument at its best?


I am not a musician, so the categories of modern instruments and historical instruments have not existed for me (although I do know that the fortepiano is the forerunner of the modern piano, of course). For me, it is just another choice: Mozart on fortepiano or piano, Bach on lute or guitar, Beethoven on historical or modern orchestra... I have no negative preconceptions about ancient versus modern instruments. It's a different sound and I like sounds. I like to have versions of the same piece played on different instruments, either historical or modern, or even transcriptions.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sir Thomas Beecham, upon hearing the fortepiano: "A great improvement over the harpsichord. It sounds like just a single skeleton."


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Sir Thomas Beecham, upon hearing the fortepiano: "A great improvement over the harpsichord. It sounds like just a single skeleton."


Thomas Beecham died in 1961. Over the last 50 years, they've made significant improvements in renovations of older instruments and in creating new instruments on the basis of older models -- not to mention improved performance methods and approaches to doing recordings. Ken, can we keep it positive? (See the OP). Thanks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Alypius said:


> Thomas Beecham died in 1961. Over the last 50 years, they've made significant improvements in renovations of older instruments and in creating new instruments on the basis of older models -- not to mention improved performance methods and approaches to doing recordings. Ken, can we keep it positive? (See the OP). Thanks.


Uh...that was a joke. Beecham made a famous comment on the harpsichord... Look it up.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Since this topic is "In Praise of the Fortepiano", for those of you who don't like the fortepiano, and simply come here to provoke those of us who do like it, perhaps you should post on a different thread.

Just a general comment. Not directed at anyone in particular.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Alypius said:


> Thomas Beecham died in 1961. Over the last 50 years, they've made significant improvements in renovations of older instruments and in creating new instruments on the basis of older models -- not to mention improved performance methods and approaches to doing recordings. Ken, can we keep it positive? (See the OP). Thanks.


You are of course correct. For all the listening choices I listed above, meticulous recreations of fortepianos used by Beethoven and Mozart were used. For Brautigam, one of the fortepianos is a recreation of a Graf from 1819.

For both Mozart recommendations, recreations of Mozart's own Walter concert piano were used.

All the fortepianos sound fabulous and should be listened to by all music lovers with an open mind, who want to get closer to the sounds conceived by the composers.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Since this topic is "In Praise of the Fortepiano", for those of you who don't like the fortepiano, and simply come here to provoke those of us who do like it, perhaps you should post on a different thread.
> 
> Just a general comment. Not directed at anyone in particular.


Folks have the right to negative comments about the fortepiano; I see no reason to use a different thread.

Having said the above, I've always been a big fan of the fortepiano. Two of my favorite fortepiano recordings are performed by Walter Riemer who recorded the Goldberg Variations and Art of Fugue.

As always, I do want to emphasize that the interpretation is more important than the instrument used.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Sir Thomas Beecham, upon hearing the fortepiano: "A great improvement over the harpsichord. It sounds like just a single skeleton."


This is tiresome. Seems like every day I read about Beecham, skeletons and harpsichords. Must be other well-known grumps who bitched about it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> Folks have the right to negative comments about the fortepiano; I see no reason to use a different thread.
> 
> Having said the above, I've always been a big fan of the fortepiano. Two of my favorite fortepiano recordings are performed by Walter Riemer who recorded the Goldberg Variations and Art of Fugue.
> 
> ...


I disagree. The instrument chosen is absolutely critical to a successful performance. There can be some "clunkers" out there. I've heard some wonderful performers done in by horrible instruments.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Can someone explain to me whether there's something in Beethoven's music, or Chopin's music, or Brahms's music, or Schumann's music, which makes the fortepiano a better instrument. 

The striking thing to me about some fortepianos (not French ones) is that the bass is less resonant than your average Steinway. In fact, everything sustains less than a normal metal framed piano. 

Are there effects which Beethoven, Schumann, Chopin or Brahms intended which you just can't do with a Steinway, because the effects rely on a rapid decay?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I disagree on both counts. The instrument chosen is absolutely critical to a successful performance. There can be some "clunkers" out there.
> 
> The thread is intended for fortepiano fans. Why should anyone spoil it by dropping provocative bombs on those of us who are posting in the spirit of the thread title?
> 
> If one hates the fortepiano, let them start a thread to vent their hatred.


Some strong words there, and I don't agree with any of them. I say that all members who do not like the fortepiano should feel free to voice their opinions right here in this thread. Then, fortepiano fans can respond accordingly. Ken was doing his usual fooling around with a little honesty injected - no big deal. We lovers of the fortepiano should be able to take the heat, if there is any.

Getting back to "clunkers", sure there are some poor sounding fortepianos (modern pianos as well). My intent was to point out that a mediocre keyboardist will remain mediocre no matter what the instrument. Personally, I'd much rather hear a great keyboardist on a lousy instrument than a mediocre one on a fantastic instrument.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Brahms, Chopin and Schumann wrote for piano, not fortepiano; admittedly nothing like a Steinway Grand, but more advanced than what Beethoven and Mozart were familiar with. 

There are some delightful solo Chopin recordings employing pianos Chopin could have used.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2014)

Mandryka: following Beethoven's pedal markings for the 1st movement of the "Moonlight" sonata is problematic on a modern piano. 
Here's a link to Wikipedia for a quick explanation. I'm sure you could check out YouTube and find this sonata performed on a modern piano and fortepiano for comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._14_(Beethoven)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Can someone explain to me whether there's something in Beethoven's music, or Chopin's music, or Brahms's music, or Schumann's music, which makes the fortepiano a better instrument.
> 
> The striking thing to me about some fortepianos (not French ones) is that the bass is less resonant than your average Steinway. In fact, everything sustains less than a normal metal framed piano.
> 
> Are there effects which Beethoven, Schumann, Chopin or Brahms intended which you just can't do with a Steinway, because the effects rely on a rapid decay?


I suppose that a more rapid decay could enhance clarity and detail.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. The modern piano smears a lot in Beethoven and Mozart, much like solo Bach played on piano, and not on the more desirable (in my opinion) harpsichord.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes. The modern piano smears a lot, much like solo Bach played on piano, and not on the more desirable (in my opinion) harpsichord.


This is where we agree. For me, even worse is a swimming acoustic where you can't even hear one clear note. Unfortunately, our recording engineers often give us the bathtub/airplane hangar effect; those folks need to be fired (or a firing squad).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I prefer van Immerseel's performances of the complete Mozart keyboard concertos over Malcolm Bilson's for one thing, because the former is better recorded. One can hardly hear Bilson's instrument. Most likely Bilson was playing "within", that is, surrounded by the orchestra whereas Immerseel was performing the modern way, in front of the orchestra.

Also, Bilson goes a bit nuts with ornamentation making me distracted. This is especially sinful in the slow movements where Mozart's beautiful lines can stand alone. Bilson does Mozart no favors by "helping" him with ornamentation.
To his credit, Immerseel is smart enough to know when to get out of the way and let Mozart's music stand on its own.

I don't know why performers believe they are doing any service to the listener by heavily ornamenting Mozart on recordings.
This is fine for live performance, but for a recording to be played repeatedly, it just proves to be distracting.

So ornament freely "live"; sparingly for recordings.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Alypius said:


> So my questions:
> 
> (1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
> (2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a _positive way_-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in _a new way_?


I think this only qualifies as half-praise, but it still is praise, right?

1. I don't generally like the fortepiano. BUT . . .
2. Having said that, I've been pleasantly surprised by Melvyn Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos. 
3. I don't know if I've heard the music in a new way; it's been more of, "Son of a gun, that guy can make a fortepiano sound good."

Okay. Back to the comments with full-on praise.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What is true is that often modern pianists don't play for clarity of each note, and often fortepianists do. But, listen. If a pianist knows how to drive a Steinway, they can play with just as much clarity if they choose to, at least in music with moderate tempos. One example would be Arrau's digital op 110/i, the one from his final Beethoven set.

I conclude that any lack of clarity is an interprative choice, a decision about texture, not a limitation of the instrument. A choice you may not care for, but that's irrelevant.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes, Alypius, the fortepiano has come a long way.

When it first came out in the early 1990's on Erato, I bought the complete Mozart Keyboard Sonatas played on fortepiano by Alexeï Lubimov. The various fortepianos played on the recent Kristian Bezuidenhout set are a sight for sore ears in comparison.
Much better!


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> I think this only qualifies as half-praise, but it still is praise, right?
> 
> 1. I don't generally like the fortepiano. BUT . . .
> 2. Having said that, I've been pleasantly surprised by Melvyn Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos.
> ...


Manx, Thanks. Actually your comments are exactly the sort of measured comments that I expected and, in some ways, hoped for. I figured that there are a relatively small number of full-on enthusiasts, but there are others at various junctures along the spectrum. In phrasing the opening post as I did, I mainly wanted to avoid unfettered bashing and crude caricatures. I want and appreciate honest reservations.

I haven't heard Melvyn Tan's recordings of the Beethoven, but have read some good things about them. And so it's a helpful confirmation for me.

I myself have found my own appreciation of the fortepiano has grown slowly, only after hearing a variety of recordings and hearing the best of those repeatedly. Also, for me, the fortepiano in the right hands and with the right recording engineers offers helpful alternatives of familiar works. I had heard some recordings, especially some of the pioneering ones, that didn't appeal to me. While I have enjoyed many of John Eliot Gardiner's performances of a variety of works (from Monteverdi to Holst), his Mozart concertos with Bilson did not appeal to me for the most part. In retrospect, I think that the choices about how they were recorded was a major factor. Bilson's fortepiano sounds too weak against the rest of the orchestra. I see that hp has made more detailed comments above about that performance and spells out the specifics of the problem.

Ronald Brautigam has discussed his conviction of the need for _newly-made_ fortepianos vs. older _restored_ versions. New instruments are beginning to appear more often in recordings, and it will be interesting to see if they begin to shift people's opinions. But I think the biggest factors will be a variety of performers using them and continued improvement in the engineering. One of the reasons that I led off with the mention of the new Melnikov / Faust / Queyras performance of Beethoven's piano trios was its superb sound engineering and Melnikov's quite fresh style and sound.

The evolution of the acceptance of other forms of period practice and authentic instruments has been quite gradual. Some of it has been the audience, some of it has been the performers themselves (in some case, requiring the emergence of a whole new generation of performers who were trained as period specialists). It will be interesting to see developments.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes, Alypius, the fortepiano has come a long way.
> 
> When it first came out in the early 1990's on Erato, I bought the complete Mozart Keyboard Sonatas played on fortepiano by Alexeï Lubimov. The various fortepianos played on the recent Kristian Bezuidenhout set are a sight for sore ears in comparison.
> Much better!


Hp, Have you heard Alexei Lubimov's recent performances of Debussy on a period piano? In this case, it's a piano that dates from Debussy's time, not a fortepiano but it does sound quite different from modern Steinways. It received considerable critical acclaim and a number of awards. Since it was recorded by ECM, the sound quality is remarkable:










I think we're going to see many more of such efforts -- and it will be liable to raise eyebrows and perhaps cause real controversy from those accustomed to modern instruments.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> What is true is that often modern pianists don't play for clarity of each note, and often fortepianists do. But, listen. If a pianist knows how to drive a Steinway, they can play with just as much clarity if they choose to, at least in music with moderate tempos. One example would be Arrau's digital op 110/i, the one from his final Beethoven set.
> 
> I conclude that any lack of clarity is an interprative choice, a decision about texture, not a limitation of the instrument. A choice you may not care for, but that's irrelevant.


There is a difference brought about by the actual instruments, because modern concert pianos are cross strung - they're not as polyphonically clear, even just a single chord played isn't as polyphonically clear as with a fortepiano.

I've read this in liner notes and I've experienced it while listening to fortepiano music.

Basically, around the year 1900, piano makers started to sacrifice clarity to "improve" the sound. Actually, even earlier than that with many makers. I remember reading that Liszt still preferred straight strung pianos in a time when most piano makers had moved to cross strung ones.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I prefer van Immerseel's performances of the complete Mozart keyboard concertos over Malcolm Bilson's...


I also prefer Immerseel's Mozart concertos to Bilson's. Another Immerseel recording I like a lot is the set of the Beethoven violin sonatas with Midori Seiler on the fiddle. And I'll give a strong mention to the Diabelli Variations played by Andreas Staier. I was very doubtful before listening to it!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I also prefer Immerseel's Mozart concertos to Bilson's. Another Immerseel recording I like a lot is the set of the Beethoven violin sonatas with Midori Seiler on the fiddle. And I'll give a strong mention to the Diabelli Variations played by Andreas Staier. I was very doubtful before listening to it!


I have Midori Seiler playing unaccompanied Bach and her baroque violin playing is astonishing.
I'm not a big fan of the collective Beethoven violin sonatas, save for 3 or 4.
I will investigate the Staier Diabelli Variations. I have Ashkenazy and consider it one of his most successful recordings, but I would like to hear this on fortepiano. Thanks!


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Love the fortepiano in all its variety. I've got a goodly collection at home - I'll look for the favorites and report back (it will be nice to have a reason to dig them all out and hear them again.)

First order of business is to praise the work done by Jorg Demus on fortepiano (every bit as essential as his more famous recordings on modern piano. His album of Schubert lieder accompanying Elly Ameling on fortepiano was a revelation when I first heard it and is still a delight.

















and another vote here for Melven Tan's Beethoven. His disc of the Op.3 sonatas in particular is essential listening, imo.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2014)

Simon NZ's heads-up for Melvyn Tan seconded !


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Alypius said:


> Hp, Have you heard Alexei Lubimov's recent performances of Debussy on a period piano? In this case, it's a piano that dates from Debussy's time, not a fortepiano but it does sound quite different from modern Steinways. It received considerable critical acclaim and a number of awards. Since it was recorded by ECM, the sound quality is remarkable:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. Thanks for the heads up. I'll put it on my list.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Alypius said:


>


...shame that he has to build his own.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> ...shame that he has to build his own.


I appreciate that you're joking. But actually it is the whole point. If you look at the sequence of the BIS covers for Brautigam's Mozart concerto cycle, you'll see that they offer a visual account of the gradual construction of a _new_ fortepiano. The wood-chopping cover is obviously the crudest starting point, but things progress down to the careful fine tuning of things. Brautigam has said somewhere (I looked again and can't find it) that he believed that restored fortepianos, for all the wonders of their restoration, can be 'tired' and lack the full-bodied sound of a new instrument. He wanted a new instrument. In one of the videos I saw the instrument maker himself speaking. In any case, BIS apparently used Brautigam's extolling of a new instrument as a cue for the theme of their covers. Here's a few more:


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2014)

This will be for you, Alypius (link to first part of the documentary, features Melvyn Tan) :


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> This will be for you, Alypius (link to first part of the documentary, features Melvyn Tan) :


TalkingH, Thanks so much for that link! It's an incredibly well done documentary on Beethoven's personal fortepiano. All the comments on the strings and hammers, the differences between an English fortepiano vs. a Viennese conception of it. It's also got great insights into the whole process of instrument restoration. The instrument maker is very articulate about the process and the history. It's must-viewing for those interested in the instrument.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I like Brautigam's Beethoven. And from way back in time, I've been listening to Anthony Newman, who has done all the Mozart Sonatas, and Beethoven Concertos; I recommend those.

  
[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concerto-Fantasy-Analytically-Indexed/dp/B00080LFFG/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-13&keywords=Anthony+Newman"]  

  


[/URL]


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Beethoven's Piano Sonatas are best played, in my humble opinion, on well maintained pre-Kimball Boesendorfers, if one does not have access to a Pleyel.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2014)

Brautigam is a master with the fortepiano. 

I have several of his albums of Beethoven's piano works on the fortepiano. I also have his complete Mozart piano sonatas on fortepiano. And I also have two albums from his recordings of Haydn's solo keyboard works on fortepiano. I love them all.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2014)

Alypius said:


> Gramophone Magazine has recently posted its nominees for its best records of 2014 in various categories. One has caught my eye - or rather, ear. It's a performance of a pair of Beethoven's Piano Trios #6, op. 70, and #7, op. 97 ("Archduke"), with Isabelle Faust on violin, Jean-Guihen Queyras on cello and Alexander Melnikov on fortepiano (Harmonia mundi, 2014). While Faust and Melnikov have generally recorded with modern instruments, here both have switched over to period instruments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would love a recording such as this, but my only concern is that I don't really know how well these three play period instruments. On modern instruments, they are wonderful. I have recordings from each of them that are great. But I don't know how they work switching instruments. Still, it is intriguing. I currently have the Archduke performed by the Kempff Trio on BIS that is my favorite.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

DrMike said:


> I would love a recording such as this, but my only concern is that I don't really know how well these three play period instruments. On modern instruments, they are wonderful. I have recordings from each of them that are great. But I don't know how they work switching instruments. Still, it is intriguing. I currently have the Archduke performed by the Kempff Trio on BIS that is my favorite.


Mike, I had exactly the same reservation that you expressed. I have Melnikov's performance of Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues and admire them greatly. I have several of Faust's performances, including her Bach solo sonatas & partitas, and they are well done. But in all those cases, it's their performances on modern instruments. I've seen a review that speaks of the success of their "crossover" and I'll post that when I find it again. The only thing I can suggest is to listen to it on spotify where you can listen to it in its entirety. Of course, spotify's sound is (as always) compressed. A better reflection is listening to the clips on Harmonia mundi's website; while excerpts, you can get a good sense of the texture of the CD sound.

Thanks for the comments on Brautigam's recordings. As I noted over on the "Current Listening" thread, my order of 2 CDs of Brautigam's Mozart piano concertos (20 & 27 and 24 & 25) just arrived on my doorstep this morning and so I've just begun listening to them. I'll review them more fully later, but I'm enjoying what I'm hearing.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2014)

Alypius said:


> Mike, I had exactly the same reservation that you expressed. I have Melnikov's performance of Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues and admire them greatly. I have several of Faust's performances, including her Bach solo sonatas & partitas, and they are well done. But in all those cases, it's their performances on modern instruments. I've seen a review that speaks of the success of their "crossover" and I'll post that when I find it again. The only thing I can suggest is to listen to it on spotify where you can listen to it in its entirety. Of course, spotify's sound is (as always) compressed. A better reflection is listening to the clips on Harmonia mundi's website; while excerpts, you can get a good sense of the texture of the CD sound.
> 
> Thanks for the comments on Brautigam's recordings. As I noted over on the "Current Listening" thread, my order of 2 CDs of Brautigam's Mozart piano concertos (20 & 27 and 24 & 25) just arrived on my doorstep this morning and so I've just begun listening to them. I'll review them more fully later, but I'm enjoying what I'm hearing.


I also have the Melnikov Shostakovich recording, and agree that it is very good. I have Queyras' recording of Dvorak's Cello concerto, and it is the one I go to first for that work. Faust is excellent in a variety of things - she has a very good recording of the Beethoven violin concerto and the Kreutzer sonata. I have been sampling this album on iTunes - almost all of my music purchases are digital, and mostly through iTunes. My initial thoughts are that they sound very good. At this point, though, there are other works that I intend to purchase before this. But I only have two recordings of the Archduke, so I could definitely use another, especially if it is on period instruments.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

One area of the repertoire that I have not really heard much of or read much about is the efforts to perform Beethoven's Piano Concertos on fortepiano. Two have caught my eye:

*Arthur Schoonderwoerd & Christofori*, _Beethoven: Piano Concertos nos. 4 & 5_ (Alpha, 2005). This is one volume of a three volume set, and I think it has also been boxed up. I gather he conducted from the piano.










*Steven Lubin / Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood*, _Beethoven: Piano Concertos, 3 Sonatas_ (3 CDs) (Decca, 2006)










Has anyone heard these? Recommend these? Other instances of Beethoven's concertos on pianoforte?


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2014)

Alypius said:


> One area of the repertoire that I have not really heard much of or read much about is the efforts to perform Beethoven's Piano Concertos on fortepiano. Two have caught my eye:
> 
> *Arthur Schoonderwoerd & Christofori*, _Beethoven: Piano Concertos nos. 4 & 5_ (Alpha, 2005). This is one volume of a three volume set, and I think it has also been boxed up. I gather he conducted from the piano.
> 
> ...


Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Levin/Gardiner recordings of the Beethoven concertos are also on the pianoforte. 








I have the mp3s around somewhere, but lately have preferred the Sudbin/Vanska recordings on BIS.

I initially thought that the Brautigam recordings on BIS were also fortepiano, but he actually uses a modern piano and attempts to produce the sound of a fortepiano - not quite the same. And not that good of recordings, anyways. Fairly forgettable - sad, because I like so much else of what Brautigam has done.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Alypius said:


> One area of the repertoire that I have not really heard much of or read much about is the efforts to perform Beethoven's Piano Concertos on fortepiano. Two have caught my eye:
> 
> *Arthur Schoonderwoerd & Christofori*, _Beethoven: Piano Concertos nos. 4 & 5_ (Alpha, 2005). This is one volume of a three volume set, and I think it has also been boxed up. I gather he conducted from the piano.
> 
> ...


The Lubin is totally reliable and may well qualify for the most consistently outstanding Beethoven concertos set ever recorded. Schoonderwoerd is radically imaginative in conception and will forcefully challenge your ideas about what this music should sound like. It has taken me a long time to appreciate Schoonderwoerd but now I think he's done something very very interesting in those recordings.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Alypius said:


> One area of the repertoire that I have not really heard much of or read much about is the efforts to perform Beethoven's Piano Concertos on fortepiano....
> 
> *Steven Lubin / Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood*, _Beethoven: Piano Concertos, 3 Sonatas_ (3 CDs) (Decca, 2006)
> 
> ...





Mandryka said:


> The Lubin is totally reliable and may well qualify for the most consistently outstanding Beethoven concertos set ever recorded...


This thread is starting to cost me -- in a good way. Two of Ronald Brautigam's performances of Mozart arrived earlier in the week (PC 20&26 and 24&25). Another is on order. Well, I've just ordered the Steven Lubin above on Mandryka's recommendations. I certainly enjoy old school Beethoven (e.g. Claudio Arrau's performance of PC 4&5) and new school Beethoven (Paul Lewis' performances of all the PCs); now, I guess I'm plunging into new-school-which-is-really-old-old-school. Looking forward to it.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Did anyone mention Schoonderwoerd yet? He's recorded at least Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin on a fortepiano.

Here's an example of his Chopin:






I've long been kind of tired of Chopin but this is lovely.

edit: ah, he was mentioned in connection with Beethoven piano concertos.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Just arrived today:

Ronald Brautigam / Michael Alexander Willems / Die Kölner Akademie
_Mozart: Piano Concertos nos. 18 in B flat majro & 22 in E flat major_ (BIS, 2014)










This is the third volume of their cycle that I purchased, the other two (nos. 24 & 25 and nos. 20 & 27) arriving early last week. I'm in the middle of a first listen. Again magnificent playing, remarkable sound balance between soloist and orchestra, and simply extraordinary sound quality in the recording. This Mozart cycle is proving to be all I had hoped for.

Grammophone gave this one of its "Editor's Choice" awards. Excerpts from the review:



> "In a letter to his daughter Nannerl, Leopold Mozart expressed his pleasure at the interplay of the various instruments after hearing Wolfgang perform the B flat Concerto, K456. I experienced comparable delight listening to this beautifully recorded performance from Ronald Brautigam and the responsive Cologne period band. In a Mozartian opera reimagined in instrumental terms, fortepiano, wind and strings conspire and banter with captivating grace and legerdemain.
> Likewise using a modern copy of an Anton Walter fortepiano, Brautigam favours rather fleeter tempi, and a more direct style of phrasing than Robert Levin on his fine L'Oiseau Lyre recording with Christopher Hogwood... In the first movement, with its suggestion of a march for toy soldiers, Levin is more reflective, Brautigam more playfully extrovert, stressing continuity of line above rhythmic and tonal nuance. I prefer Brautigam's more flowing manner in the G minor Andante, where Levin's minute inflections can sound over-exquisite. The period woodwind, led by the virginal solo flute, are especially delectable in the serenading G major variation. As to the 'hunting' finale, you'd go far to hear a performance of such darting wit and panache, or one that exudes such a sense of delighted collusion between woodwind - each one an operatic character in itself - and the fortepiano's sweet, silvery treble.
> In the more opulently scored K482 ... the performance is scarcely less enjoyable than that of K456, not least in the C minor Andante, which at Brautigam's unusually mobile tempo is just as touching, and (in the confrontational second variation) more dramatic, than in more gravely paced readings. Brautigam generates an exhilarating forward sweep in the regal opening movement ... For me the easily flowing pace and delicate touches of embellishment, predictably less lavish than Levin's, mesh perfectly with the animated naturalness of the whole performance."-Richard Wigmore (_Gramophone Magazine_)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Alypius said:


> Just arrived today:
> 
> Ronald Brautigam / Michael Alexander Willems / Die Kölner Akademie
> _Mozart: Piano Concertos nos. 18 in B flat majro & 22 in E flat major_ (BIS, 2014)
> ...


Thanks! I haven't heard this. I rank Brautigam very highly. Neither concerto is among my favorite Mozart concertos. If he records #21 and #23 I might go for it!

I already have Bilson/Gardiner and van Immerseel in complete fortepiano sets, so I'm not exactly impoverished here. 

Just when I thought my financial situation was in order.... :lol:


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Thanks! I haven't heard this. I rank Brautigam very highly. Neither concerto is among my favorite Mozart concertos. If he records #21 and #23 I might go for it!
> 
> I already have Bilson/Gardiner and van Immerseel in complete fortepiano sets, so I'm not exactly impoverished here.
> 
> Just when I thought my financial situation was in order.... :lol:


Brautigam has recorded #23 (cover below). His cycle to date has been:

Vol. 1 - Nos. 9 & 12
Vol. 2 - Nos. 24 & 25 (I have this)
Vol. 3 - Nos. 17 & 26
Vol. 4 - Nos. 19 & 23
Vol. 5 - Nos. 20 & 27 (I have this)
Vol. 6 - Nos. 18 & 22 (the new arrival)

I presume that further volumes are forthcoming. Hopefully with #21 soon.

His complete discography is listed on his website:
http://www.ronaldbrautigam.com/discography.php

He also completed his Beethoven cycle, and the box set is due to be released in the U.S. on Sept. 2, 2014.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Alypius said:


> Brautigam has recorded #23 (cover below). His cycle to date has been:
> 
> Vol. 1 - Nos. 9 & 12
> Vol. 2 - Nos. 24 & 25 (I have this)
> ...


I wasn't aware he was doing a complete Mozart set. His Beethoven keyboard sonata series is one of the best. I collected each single CD as they came out. If I was more patient, I could have waited for the entire set and probably saved some money and space.

I'm feeling the compulsion to sample at least one CD of his Mozart set. Thanks for the info!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think it was mentioned earlier, but some of Mozart's concertos have been recorded by Arthur Schoonderwoerd. The performances, by a tinkly fortepiano and VERY small ensemble, are interesting, but probably not to every taste! One reviewer calls them "Talibanish"!

Five concertos so far that I know of -- 5, 18, 19, 20, and 21.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I think it was mentioned earlier, but some of Mozart's concertos have been recorded by Arthur Schoonderwoerd. The performances, by a tinkly fortepiano and VERY small ensemble, are interesting, but probably not to every taste! One reviewer calls them "Talabanish"!
> 
> Five concertos so far that I know of -- 5, 18, 19, 20, and 21.


What does that mean, "talibanish"? Something to do with Islam?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> What does that mean, "talibanish"? Something to do with Islam?


Yes. The reviewer, an entertaining and quite anti-HIP fellow (Michael Bernard O'Hanlon), is accusing the performers of a blind, religious adherence to a repellant musical ideology. His reviews are often amusing to read because he has quite a sense of humor. I remember the phrase as "more Talibanish than Omar Mohammed's donkey."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Yes. The reviewer, an entertaining and quite anti-HIP fellow (Michael Bernard O'Hanlon), is accusing the performers of a blind, religious adherence to a repellant musical ideology. His reviews are often amusing to read because he has quite a sense of humor. I remember the phrase as "more Talibanish than Omar Mohammed's donkey."


Oh, sounds like the guy's a ******.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Yes. The reviewer, an entertaining and quite anti-HIP fellow (Michael Bernard O'Hanlon), is accusing the performers of a blind, religious adherence to a repellant musical ideology. His reviews are often amusing to read because he has quite a sense of humor. I remember the phrase as "more Talibanish than Omar Mohammed's donkey."


Sounds like he doesn't know very much about music


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

dgee said:


> Sounds like he doesn't know very much about music


Oh, I suspect he does. But he has some strong opinions. If he hung out around here, he'd liven things up. His review of Karl Richter's Mass in B minor, "A Survivor of The Great Dying":

"Paleontology has established that Richterasaurus was a placid, warm-blooded, sometimes slow-moving herbivore, hot-blooded when roused and capable of great excitement and inspiration. Its decline was caused by the invasion of its upland grazing by the fast-growing, quick-spreading Giant Hogweed which was highly noxious to the Richterasaurus (and poisonous in general to all forms of life). Starved of its staple food, Richterasaurus fell an easy victim to Raptus Harnoncourtus (a cold-blooded, fast-moving, meat-eating dinosaur with bizarre thought-patterns), the Jeggyador (a near bloodless carnivore, quick on its heels, with vampiric tendencies) and Rifkin Skinnicus (the toothless runt of the litter).

Recent geological excavations have shown that a terrible Ice Age then descended upon the Earth - the so-called Baroque stratum is full of the bones of such unpleasant monsters as Violinus Authenticus (whose high-pitched whine was offensive to ears), Tenorfalsettus (which screeched incessantly, day and night) and Harpsichordus Mangelus (an extraordinary creature with virtually no flesh on its skeleton which caused a frightful clatter whenever it copulated). It is doubtful whether any of these monstrosities could fly: with so many clipped appendages, surely they were earthbound in the extreme.

Amazingly Richterasaurus, thought to be long extinct, survived to give pleasure and comfort to the newly emerged homo sapiens, which domesticated it and thrived on its strangely moving, profoundly musical lowing. Men and women now stare at the bones of the Raptus Harnoncourtus, Jeggyador and Rifkin Skinnicus and wonder what all the fuss was about."


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Since this topic is "In Praise of the Fortepiano", for those of you who don't like the fortepiano, and simply come here to provoke those of us who do like it, perhaps you should post on a different thread.
> 
> Just a general comment. Not directed at anyone in particular.


Agreed Agreed Agreed (18 wds


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

NightHawk said:


> Agreed Agreed Agreed (18 wds


Right? Just as easy to simply start a thread "Damn That Fortepiano!!"

I am trying to get Schindler's List re-edited to show the Nazi after ransacking a Jewish home sitting at a fortepiano, instead of a modern piano to play some Beethoven.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2014)

This is really just another period instruments thread. Unless someone can point out a significant work written for fortepiano AFTER the invention of the modern piano. Or find me someone that prefers to play ALL works on fortepiano simply because they love the sound.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> This is really just another period instruments thread. Unless someone can point out a significant work written for fortepiano AFTER the invention of the modern piano. Or find me someone that prefers to play ALL works on fortepiano simply because they love the sound.


Ah, now this raises a question that's been bugging me:

The general public didn't stop playing their old instruments just because Beethoven or whoever now owned the new technology. Even among the more well-to-do families for whom these items were not just home entertainment but a status symbol it must have been quite some time before what we'd recognise as a modern piano was more common than not, and among the less well off longer still.

So if the audience for the sheet music of these and the next generation(s) of composers were for a long time the owners what what we are here calling fortepianos, isn't playing practically anything within its range from even the mid ninteenth century on these instruments a historically accurate option, at least from the point of view of a transitional period in audience keyboard ownership?


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

The king of instruments! And one instrument I've never owned yet I obsess over them! I will have one one day even if it's a (very good quality) digital!


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Oh, wow! I live for fortepiano!
> 
> My favorites are:
> 
> ...


I am so glad you posted this. I've been searching for good recordings of Mozart's piano concertos on period instruments...they just don't sound right on modern pianos. Jos van Immerseel and Anima Eterna did a wonderful job. Can't get enough of 27...it certainly must be some of the most beautiful music ever written and I can't hardly get enough of this awesome rendition!
THX :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

eyeman said:


> I am so glad you posted this. I've been searching for good recordings of Mozart's piano concertos on period instruments...they just don't sound right on modern pianos. Jos van Immerseel and Anima Eterna did a wonderful job. Can't get enough of 27...it certainly must be some of the most beautiful music ever written and I can't hardly get enough of this awesome rendition!
> THX :tiphat:


Anytime, eyeman!

Once I started with fortepiano and HIP listening, there was no turning back. For Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven, this, in my opinion, is how it should be done.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Oh, I suspect he does. But he has some strong opinions. If he hung out around here, he'd liven things up. His review of Karl Richter's Mass in B minor, "A Survivor of The Great Dying":
> 
> "Paleontology has established that Richterasaurus was a placid, warm-blooded, sometimes slow-moving herbivore, hot-blooded when roused and capable of great excitement and inspiration. Its decline was caused by the invasion of its upland grazing by the fast-growing, quick-spreading Giant Hogweed which was highly noxious to the Richterasaurus (and poisonous in general to all forms of life). Starved of its staple food, Richterasaurus fell an easy victim to Raptus Harnoncourtus (a cold-blooded, fast-moving, meat-eating dinosaur with bizarre thought-patterns), the Jeggyador (a near bloodless carnivore, quick on its heels, with vampiric tendencies) and Rifkin Skinnicus (the toothless runt of the litter).
> 
> ...


I remember reading this review some time ago and laughing hysterically (not least from the truth of it - although I do enjoy many of Jeggy's recordings). It is very clever. I have always had a fondness for eccentrics. Many whom I've met turned out to have excellent character - could be a pattern.

Agree or disagree, it does make reading reviews a bit more interesting than the same adjectives, standard format, and patterns again and again and again.

I happen to agree with many of O'Hanlon's reviews on recordings. Our tastes are mostly simpatico.

Not a huge HIP fan (not that I dislike it), especially for orchestral works, but I must admit, I will have to look into some of the Fortepiano recordings mentioned here in this thread. Not very familiar with them, so I will reserve my critique until I am more acquainted.

V


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

PS: And on a side note, he is correct: Richter's Mass in B minor is outstanding!:tiphat:

V


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Arrived yesterday:

Ronald Brautigam / Die Kölner Akademie / Michael Alexander Willems
_Mozart: Piano Concertos nos 19 in F major & 23 in A major_ (BIS, 2013)










This is the fourth in this Brautigam BIS cycle that I've picked up in recent weeks. I continue to find it quite remarkable. The sonics by the BIS engineers are extraordinary -- giving balance between orchestra and fortepiano sometimes lacking in other recordings. Here, as with other performances in this cycle, the first thing that catches one's ear is the remarkable richness and expressiveness of the fortepiano that Brautigam is playing. The cover photos on building a _new_ fortepiano are really apt. There is something remarkable in the tone qualities of this newly constructed instrument he is playing. But, of course, it wouldn't matter if Brautigam wasn't such a talented and expressive player. As I have gradually been absorbing this cycle, I've come to appreciate how superior the backing band is. The forces are relatively small. We are far away from those big orchestras used in performances from the late 1970s and early 1980s. You have a much greater sense of intimacy and clarity and detail. The orchestra is more akin to a Baroque-size "orchestra" but bigger, fuller sounding, but nothing like the grandiose of later eras. Brautigam and Willems choose brisk tempos and so for those used to "big band" Mozart are liable to be put off. But to my ear, it works. I know PC 23 so well that I can probably sing a good bit from memory, but PC 19 is much less familiar. And so I'm enjoying it.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I quite like the sound of the fortepiano.

Right now, I only have the Schoonderwoerd set of Beethoven's piano concerti (I love the sound of 1 instrument/part for the orchestra), and Sofronitsky's Mozart concerti (which I absolutely love; this is the set that's made me really get into Mozart's PCs)

Thanks to this thread, I'll have to pick up the Brautigam Beethoven sonatas once the complete set is released over here.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I collected them as they came out. Couldn't wait for the complete set.


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## Steveland (Aug 25, 2014)

Three outstanding (imo) early Piano recordings are:

Beethoven:The last sonatas/Paul Komen. GLO5106

Chopin:Sonatas/Howard Shelley. NIFCCD 022

Schumann:Etudes symphoniques/Malcolm Frager. NIFFCD 100


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Steveland said:


> Three outstanding (imo) early Piano recordings are:
> 
> Beethoven:The last sonatas/Paul Komen. GLO5106
> 
> ...


Steve, Welcome to the TC forum.

Thanks for the heads up on these. I gather that they are not "fortepiano" per se, but rather than the next generation of instruments. I see that this "Music of Chopin's Time" is a new series. Frager and Shelley, to the best of my knowledge, don't normally perform on period instruments -- part of a new trend perhaps (as I noted in my opening post, with Melnikov). Interesting. As for the Paul Komen, is that performance on a period instrument? (It looks like one in the photo.)










The Amazon blurb says:



> The first album in the new series Music of Chopin s Time contains Robert Schumann s Symphonic etudes, Op. 13 and the Sonata in G minor, Op. 22 in the interpretation of one of the greatest American pianists. The recording was made on a historical piano from Vienna from 1845.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

I have a disk of Mozart piano sonatas played by Kempff on Mozart's own piano.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Another terribly underrated artist-yes-Malcolm Frager!!! I used to listen to his performances as a kid on Boston Symphony Broadcasts-nobody performed the Prokofiev Second Piano Concerto better than he did. But I digress....


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

I have this, played on mozart's own piano:


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## Steveland (Aug 25, 2014)

Alypius,thanks for the welcome,yes the Paul Komen disc is played on an 1830 Conrad Graf fortepiano,hope this helps.


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