# Qualities of classical music



## sree (May 31, 2009)

Hi,

What according to you are the qualities or elements a classical music should have and in todays composer's composition how much percentage do you think these qualities exists in their music?


Cheers!!!


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I like my music to have some notes, which is strangely lacking in some of todays pieces.

Also some form would be nice, though i dont need strict recapitualtions and all that i just like it when the notes go somewhere, do something or mean something when they are all put together. Instead of just random notes, Most aleatorism is fine for me.


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## sree (May 31, 2009)

Music without form is like a dead person. Every music needs form, structure and other issues of composition.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Agreed entirely.

Though there are always exceptions to the rules of form.
A very succesful one would be Ravels Bolero which is nothing but pecussive ostinatos and the same melody repeated throughout - no development whatsoever.


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## sree (May 31, 2009)

Yes, then more than the form , structure and other elements of composition, one element which is most important is the aesthetic feel a music gives to the audience. If a music can capture the interest of an audience either form or structure or counterpoint is implemented, but if it needs to have has the aesthetic feel...

Cheers!!!


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## Cyclops (Mar 24, 2008)

Emotional content is very important. A piece of music that changes the way you feel is an amazing thing. It might sound a bit lo brow but a nice tune is important,but also a sense of drama and atmosphere that you tend to find more in later music that isn't bound by the strict form of early classical


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

the feel is mostly carried through the harmonies


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## sree (May 31, 2009)

Rightly said... But in todays music with lyrics a composers is able to express the theme to the audience. But i feel the classical masters very really great , beacuse with an orchestrated instruments they were able to create the atmosphere. The feel of the theme were very clearly expressed. 

Such music which is abstract but yet understandable is very important. But some times due to the complexity of the composition the music does not reach the audience, even though thay are excellent composition.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Tell me Sree, and i mean no offence with this, but how are you able to speak such technocal language yet simultaneously fail at the simplest grammar.

For example
"even though thay are excellent composition. "
"The feel of the theme were very clearly expressed."

As opposed to:

"Such music which is abstract but yet understandable is very important. But some times due to the complexity of the composition the music does not reach the audience"

Which is no easy sentence.
No offence intended at all, just wondering


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## Cyclops (Mar 24, 2008)

emiellucifuge said:


> Tell me Sree, and i mean no offence with this, but how are you able to speak such technocal language yet simultaneously fail at the simplest grammar.
> 
> For example
> "even though thay are excellent composition. "
> ...


I think you'll find that Sree is not English and it is not his first language. I think he's doing pretty good to be honest.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Dont get me wrong i think his english is amazing, i just wanted to make sure he really wasnt english before I passed judgement, I didnt mean any offence!


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## sree (May 31, 2009)

Dear Emiellucifuge,

I did not took your views in wrong way.

What i wanted to say is that in today's composition many composers compose music which lacks simplicity. Due to the fact of complex compostion, most of the audience do not understand the music. 

In the past classical masters composed well and the they were able to make the people understand the feel of the music. These days very few really compose good compositions.

Actaully I am not English. Cyclops is correct... 

Cheers!!!


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Agreed entirely.
> 
> Though there are always exceptions to the rules of form.
> A very succesful one would be Ravels Bolero which is nothing but pecussive ostinatos and the same melody repeated throughout - no development whatsoever.


Seriously? Bolero has no development? Form in music doesn't neccesarily mean that there must be a thematic or motivic or harmonic development, expansion or whatever. If you listen to Bolero closely you'll discover its developmental course: it's a huge crescendo spanning over more than 15 minutes of music, consisting of an ostinato and an interplay between the instruments and groups of instruments. In that respect, it's also one of the greatest studies in orchestration ever written.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Maybe i did not word myself entirely appropriately.

Bolero consists of only one theme that is repeate over percussive ostinatos. Yes it is imitated across the entire orchestra and the piece always is in a crescendo, but the theme itself does not change neither are new themes introduced. 

I would definitely not call this a tradtional structure i.e. binary or sonata form, its a monothematic megalith, there are no interweaving paths with short exttracts that reappear later - it is simply one large path continuing steadily. This is a structure i agree with you but ...(read above)..

Im not denying its importance


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Maybe i did not word myself entirely appropriately.
> 
> Bolero consists of only one theme that is repeate over percussive ostinatos. Yes it is imitated across the entire orchestra and the piece always is in a crescendo, but the theme itself does not change neither are new themes introduced.
> 
> ...


 Your description of Bolero is a truthful one, and Bolero truly is TRASH. Its SOLE MIO or GRANADA. Trash...


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I like it, its not as simple as it seems at first glance no matter the structure. In the middle somewhere there is polytonality between instruments playing the same theme.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

sree said:


> What according to you are the qualities or elements a classical music should have and in todays composer's composition how much percentage do you think these qualities exists in their music?


One important aspect of music for me is expectation and surprise. Many composers, Beethoven for example, lead us down a path, building up an expectation that a phrase will end a certain way, acting as if it will resolve to the root key perhaps, but then we find the phrase may end on a completely different note or key than expected, often becoming the beginning of a brand new phrase or passage. This element of expectation and surprise is often lacking in contemporary music. When ALL the notes are a surprise, then none of them are.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical (Mar 15, 2008)

sree said:


> Music without form is like a dead person. Every music needs form, structure and other issues of composition.


Win. It epically reminds me of Noisegrind. Yuck.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> I like it, its not as simple as it seems at first glance no matter the structure. In the middle somewhere there is polytonality between instruments playing the same theme.


Yes, I know. Perhaps I was unfair, but - not only is it generally so grotesquely overplayed that is almost ludicrous - I had a neighbor that seemed to have only 2 records (which she played over&over&over&over) namely Bolero and something called 'Venus' (?) some dutch group I think.


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## sree (May 31, 2009)

Weston said:


> One important aspect of music for me is expectation and surprise. Many composers, Beethoven for example, lead us down a path, building up an expectation that a phrase will end a certain way, acting as if it will resolve to the root key perhaps, but then we find the phrase may end on a completely different note or key than expected, often becoming the beginning of a brand new phrase or passage. This element of expectation and surprise is often lacking in contemporary music. When ALL the notes are a surprise, then none of them are.


Well said....

Now this elements of expectation and suprise is an important element in classical music. As you said in todays, music this element is almost nil.

Another elements is the design pattern in the composition, harmony, form,structure, pitch rage of the instrument used, counterpount, tempo, the use of intervel inversion at the proper place, chords progression, if requried the change in key signature and their are many more to add...

As far as my analyisis goes what i have found out is in some compositions the composer has used music theory to a big extent and and the implementation of aesthitic is less. and at the same time in most if the classical masters composition the usage of music theory and the usage of aesthetic is present. in a nut shull all the elements are in right proposition, just like a monet or a raphel oil paintings.

Cheers!!!


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

You could draw the comparison between Tchaikovsky and Taneyev, they were both very close friends but had vastly different styles of composition.

Tchaikovsky work came from his heart and was written for its aesthetic appeal. Whereas Taneyev believed composition was an intellectual endeavour and wrote using predefined models - structure was extremely important to him.


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*Sound would be nice*

Sound.

I am having trouble hearing John Cage's 4'33"? I think my headphones are broken. Just kidding but could not resist.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

wolf said:


> Yes, I know. Perhaps I was unfair, but - not only is it generally so grotesquely overplayed that is almost ludicrous - I had a neighbor that seemed to have only 2 records (which she played over&over&over&over) namely Bolero and something called 'Venus' (?) some dutch group I think.


What about Beethoven's 5th or 9th symphonies then? And Mozart's great g minor, or Nutcracker suite, or the "Moonlight" sonata, or the "Air on the g string", or Barber's Adagio for strings or ... or ... or...? Aren't these "grotesquely overplayed"? Does that make them any less noteworthy?
And you don't get to characterize piece as "TRASH" and a little later take it back. It seems a little immature to me.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> Sound.
> 
> I am having trouble hearing John Cage's 4'33"? I think my headphones are broken. Just kidding but could not resist.


Im afraid i Beat You To IT.
See below:



emiellucifuge said:


> I like my music to have some notes, which is strangely lacking in some of todays pieces


And i was implying 4,33


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

Very good, sorry I missed that comment. No wonder iTunes was so proud to offer that piece for free? 
Thanks, I am still new to the forum but not really new to classical music. I won't give up until I learn it all - or at least can say something intelligible.
I have so much to learn....

Many Thanks


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Dont worry im just as new as you, and even newer to the Classical Music universe.

I like the quote in your signature by the way..


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

danae said:


> Seriously? Bolero has no development? Form in music doesn't neccesarily mean that there must be a thematic or motivic or harmonic development, expansion or whatever. If you listen to Bolero closely you'll discover its developmental course: it's a huge crescendo spanning over more than 15 minutes of music, consisting of an ostinato and an interplay between the instruments and groups of instruments. In that respect, it's also one of the greatest studies in orchestration ever written.


I agree entirely. And this was Ravel's intention. He wanted to write a piece of music whose only 'form content' was a crescendo. For him, the piece was conceived as an exercise and I think he was quite amazed at its commercial success.

One can imagine the composer of Rhapsodie Espagnol, which truly is a tour de force of form and orchestration, thinking to himself 'Why the h*ll bother with all his complexity when a simple crescendo does it for the folks!?' (Well, not seriously.)


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