# Are there any computer programmers / software developers on TC??



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I have an important classical related idea, but I need a software developer to help me.

Let me know

I have examples of what I want to do, which I'll post in this thread in the near future.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

One here. Just arrived.


----------



## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Me too - 25 years experience - Microsoft .NET, C# for server/winforms (and starting to learn PHP), HTML+CSS+JQuery etc for web front-end. Looking forward to hearing your idea.


----------



## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

I do it, but Ive mostly been scripting for a simulation, so If I were to really be serious I would have to get python or C++


----------



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Rob Hubbard mentioned he has knowledge of progamming and music.






(interview at 1:30).


----------



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks for the interest!

I feel that even past the dawning of the digital revolution, there's no truly effective software for catalogging classical music. I've discussed it with so many classical music fans and what it generally comes down to is that there is no absolute agreed upon way which classical music should be catalogged. I've tried an abundance of music server software and they've all failed to impress me.

A few years ago I began working on a way to allow iTunes and Front Row (Mac's music server software - which is now discontinued) to allow for the most optimal way of browsing classical music. I worked manually on this for over 4 years and probably thousands of hours. I never finished the project and once Apple discontinued the software I was using to accomplish the task, I became withdrawn entirely from the project.

I want to show you all though, what the design I've concocted because I do feel that it could finally be agreed upon by classical enthusiasts that my basic layout is by far the most enjoyable way to browse large libraries of classical music.

This is what I feel is lacking in the way classical music is catalogged...

Let's say you want to rip this CD and add it to any digital collection:









1. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 1. Danseuses de Delphes 
2. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 2. Voiles Listen
3. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 3. Le vent dans la plaine 
4. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 4. Les sons en les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir
5. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 5. Les collines d'Anacapri 
6. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 6. Des pas sur la neige
7. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 7. Ce qu'a fu le Vent d'Ouest
8. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 8. La fille aux cheveux de lin
9. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 9. La sérénade interrompue 
10. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 10. La Cathédrale engloutie
11. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 11. La danse de Puck
12. Préludes (12) for piano, Book I, L. 117: 12. Minstrels
13. Estampes, for piano, L. 100: 1. Pagodes
14. Estampes, for piano, L. 100: 2. La soirée dans Grenade
15. Estampes, for piano, L. 100: 3. Jardins sous la pluie 
16. Arabesques (2) for piano, L. 66: 1. Andante con moto
17. Arabesques (2) for piano, L. 66: 2. Allegretto scherzando 
18. Rêverie, for piano, L. 68 
19. Masques, for piano, L. 105 
20. L'isle joyeuse, for piano, L. 106

This is just the first disc of this 2CD set. Imagine having a thousand or more classical recordings and then having to use either a search function or remembering which piece is on which CD to navigate properly. It SUCKS!

The way I see, a classical collection of a vast size can only be enjoyed to the fullest when it is organized. This is why I feel that there needs to be software created which separates the work title from the movement title. This way, composer's works can be organized into folders. If you have 12 versions of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony, they should be able to be grouped together into a single folder. This can be achieved if meta data tags were designed to tag the individual works on CDs.

Please see HERE what I've done with iTunes and Front Row. It fully explains what I am looking to create. If there was a way for people to store the tags into a "cloud" then others could use it and over time people would opt for this software because it would be so much more effective.....undeniably

*In case you missed my link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/518613/my-music-server*


----------



## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Not to mention that classical often has multiple artists and all that.
I feel the problem is with the mp3 ID tag, which doesn't have enough fields suitable for qualification of art music.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

*Classical Music Collector*

DavidMahler,

Please take a look at my own software:
http://www.classicalmusiccollector.com

Comparing it with the kind of software you are talking about, here are good news and bad news.

Good news :
-It's free.
-It's already done.
-It has a similar data organization philosophy (Work-oriented, not track-oriented).
-It has many more exciting features.

Bad news :
-It's not designed to catalogue multimedia files, but only raw data.
-It is developed for Windows.

It is only the first version though, so in future versions its functionalities will be enhanced.

I will talk more about this topic next week, because the TC admins have kindly given me permission to make promotion of the software, as they consider that it can be of interest to the TC community.


----------



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

This is great! But you can't tag files?



pollux said:


> DavidMahler,
> 
> Please take a look at my own software:
> http://www.classicalmusiccollector.com
> ...


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> This is great! But you can't tag files?


Not at its current state.


----------



## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Time for me to come clean. I haven't pushed it too far I hope but I have posted a few plugs on this forum for my own software, *muso*, which is a general music management suite but with specialist support for classical music. I wrote it because I needed something after becoming frustrated with iTunes and the web front end for squeezebox devices, which I now use for playing most of my digital music. It is adaptable for use with a few different media players though, and I can add more if they support an open API.

I may post some classical-specific screenshots if anyone is interested, but in general it supports browsing by viewing the albums covers, rather than the ability to drill down from composer to musical form (concertos, operas, symphonies, etc) and then to work - but it wouldn't be too difficult to add this feature (it has the necessary attributes, eg. genre can be used for musical form).

One nice feature is the ability to easily browse and read liner notes within the app (assuming images have been organised in the album's folder). As with most of these apps, you get out what you put in, and its success depends on organising the attributes, images etc properly - fortunately this is something I love to do, because muso makes the results a pleasure to use.

Muso can also generate a web-ready HTML catalog for sharing your music collection on-line - here's mine (I do need to spend some more time editing the sort keys so that all composers are always sorted by surname rather than christan name - only the main composers are currently). This is being enhanced all the time, this example was generated when it was still fairly basic - but as I hope you can see, it works, and quickly considering it's a large collection. Note: this web page is not the app itself, which is a rich client app for Windows, it just represents the data as a dynamic web page. In the app you can browse not only by composer, but also by conductor, ensemble, performer, or musical form (genre).


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Sometimes my relatives call me to help them figure out how to turn on their computer, so I'd like to consider myself an amateur programmer.


----------



## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

I forgot to add with regards to muso, any feedback is appreciated from you classical enthusiasts: I'm very interested in making it the perfect solution for organising and browsing classical music, and have some time to invest making it so, so please send me any good ideas. 

One idea I have picked up on by reading this thread, is to make it easy to add your CDs to your database (with CDDB tag lookup). These are albums that won't necessarily be represented by media files that can be played from your computer, but just assist you in catalogging, organising and browsing your entire classical library (CDs and digital media combined) as one entity. I want to do this for myself too since I have hundreds of CDs in addition to my digital collection, that I don't necessarily want to rip as files. I think I'll start working on this soon.

The software has a fully functional one month trial. However, so that the moderators do not think this is spam, I'm willing to provide a one year licence key for free to anyone mentioning talkclassical.

(I'm wondering whether I need to start my own thread on this subject, but if there's little interest, I won't push it).


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm not sure if i'm completely grasping your idea here, but cataloging music relies on tags, and tagging is completely arbitrary, not to mention it has to be done by hand, by someone, at least once.

About a tagging "cloud": there's already a bunch of tagging services, FreeDB, TrackType, Amazon, etc., but these are all (understandably) non-standardized. There's no way you will ever achieve a universal method for tagging.

Therefore, the only sensible solution for quickly accessing your music - if that's indeed your issue here - is by keyword, filter, search... Otherwise, any media player can already browse your collection by artist, album, genre, and so on.

Although if you do come up with more concrete specifications, that might help out...


----------



## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

pollux said:


> DavidMahler,
> 
> Please take a look at my own software:
> http://www.classicalmusiccollector.com


The install should come with a warning that it will install SQLServer as a pre-requisite. The uninstall doesn't clean it up either, this has to be done manually. I couldn't quite get to grips with the software. On the plus side, your website is much better than mine!


----------



## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I also found

http://my-music-collection.com/

which allows you to enter information three ways: manually, entering the disk, or scanning the bar code. In all three cases, any other data, from the tracks to album cover images, can be retrieved online.

The collection can be displayed by shelves (i.e., all works in a certain location), album, or tracks. The search can be done by keywords for all content or particular fields.

I think data for audio files has to be entered manually, although a module might be added where any tags for the files may be retrieved and added.

There are additional features like exporting to different formats (including Excel) and statistical info.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi bassClef,

In my humble opinion there is no point today in selling such kind of software. The future of IT cultural projects is open source, free software, like mine.

I have noticed that you downloaded my software (CMC).  Would you please give me your kind opinion about it? I mean your thorough, not-prejudiced opinion if you have had the patience to test it. 

I'll test yours, too, and let you know.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

bassClef said:


> The install should come with a warning that it will install SQLServer as a pre-requisite. The uninstall doesn't clean it up either, this has to be done manually. I couldn't quite get to grips with the software. On the plus side, your website is much better than mine!


Excuse me, I didn't read your post before .


----------



## mleghorn (May 18, 2011)

About three years ago I ripped my whole CD collection (about 1200 CDs) into iTunes, and have been using iTunes ever since. My collection is about 95% classical. Btw, I use the fee Remote app on my iPod touch as a remote control (same way you would use a CD player remote, only with a lot more features). I find it to be very easy to navigate through my collection, and find whatever I want. Here's a tip that most people don't realize: you can define your own genres, e.g. Romantic Russian, 20th Century Eastern European.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

bassClef said:


> The install should come with a warning that it will install SQLServer as a pre-requisite. The uninstall doesn't clean it up either, this has to be done manually. I couldn't quite get to grips with the software. On the plus side, your website is much better than mine!


I don't see the point in warning the user that SQL Server is going to be installed, because the user normally doesn't know what SQL Server is!

The SQL Server instance is correctly uninstalled if you follow the uninstall instructions. Why did you not download the setup document? 

About its use, I know it's not very intuitive for some users, but you're a professional!  Seriously speaking, the trick is to check the View -> Data -> All option and the View -> Composers -> All Option. You'll see that everything works OK that way.


----------



## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

pollux said:


> I don't see the point in warning the user that SQL Server is going to be installed, because the user normally doesn't know what SQL Server is!
> 
> The SQL Server instance is correctly uninstalled if you follow the uninstall instructions. Why did you not download the setup document?
> 
> About its use, I know it's not very intuitive for some users, but you're a professional!  Seriously speaking, the trick is to check the View -> Data -> All option and the View -> Composers -> All Option. You'll see that everything works OK that way.


I didn't have time to evaluate it very thoroughly sorry, so I didn't read any documents first, just thought I'd give it a quick once-over. I was wondering what it was doing in the long pre-installation step, I didn't really want SQL Server on my computer, I do know what that is because I use it for my day job. Isn't that a bit heavy-duty for a simple app, or are you supporting multi-user access? If I can find any time I'll give it a more intensive evaluation.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Ralfy said:


> I also found
> 
> http://my-music-collection.com/


Mmmm, let us see...

It uses the track as the information unit. That can be suitable for pop music, not for classical music.

It simply ignores such an important concept as it is "work". Information such as the key or the catalogue number may be present or not, but it is always included within the track title, not as differentiated information.

It includes the "Artist" field. Can you tell me what meaning has this concept to you as a classical music collector? Maybe you would like to have some information about the composer and the performers...

It obtains data from databases on the Internet. Have you tried to do that with your classical CDs? The results are discouraging.

It assigns genres to albums. What happens if you have works of different genres in the same album? Well, all of your albums would probably be included in the "classical" genre. Useful, isn't it?

In short, forget it! There are hundreds of programs of the like, but they're completely useless if you want to have your classical music correctly classified.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

bassClef said:


> Isn't that a bit heavy-duty for a simple app, or are you supporting multi-user access?


Usually, I have two or more SQL Server instances running on my computer. I can assure you that my Kaspersky Antivirus program has more impact on my computer performance, by far! Besides, Microsoft fully recommends SQL Server Express, also for desktop apps.


----------



## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

pollux said:


> Mmmm, let us see...
> 
> It uses the track as the information unit. That can be suitable for pop music, not for classical music.
> 
> ...


I see nothing wrong with identifying the tracks, esp. given the OP's request (see post no. 6). With additional fields, such as the album name or catalog numbers, the tracks can still be grouped together, and the database can be viewed or searched by album.

I think information about the work is included with the record about the track, which is why one can view or sort or search by track, album, etc.

I see nothing wrong with the "artist" field, esp. the OP's reference to, say, twelve versions of a particular symphony. If any, "artist" or "performer" fields, together with others, will be important given such. (Again, see post no. 6.)

I tried it with other software, and it works well. The trick is using queues, etc. Also, you don't have to use online data, as you can enter data manually. You can also choose not to enter info from various fields if you wish, such as track information. Just enter the album title, etc.

I think it doesn't assign a genre to an album unless you choose to use data online, but you can choose to change the information, remove it, or simply add key words in a text box field.


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Hello Ralfy,

I beg you to pardon me, but my English is not so good as I would like  and reading your post I'm not sure of the exact meaning of what you're telling me. Are you telling me that all the information that this software can manage is taken from the track titles, or perhaps it comes from other fields that I wasn't able to notice about?


----------



## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

pollux said:


> Hello Ralfy,
> 
> I beg you to pardon me, but my English is not so good as I would like  and reading your post I'm not sure of the exact meaning of what you're telling me. Are you telling me that all the information that this software can manage is taken from the track titles, or perhaps it comes from other fields that I wasn't able to notice about?


I think it has two databases: album titles and track titles, and they are linked to each other for browsing and searching options. You can enter an album title without entering track info, and you can enter a track title without giving any album info. Of course, if you try to browse, search, or sort by album or track title, then the results won't be complete. That's why it's better to enter as much data as possible. That's where the use of online data becomes helpful.

From what I gathered, you can enter information three ways:

1. Enter the title, bar code (you can use a bar code scanner), or any bit of information concerning an album, and the program will search various online sites and give you choices. If you select one, it will populate some or all fields available, include any track info. You can choose what data to use from online and what sets of information to add.

2. Insert the disk in the drive, and the program will read the disk and can do the same: search for any info online, allow you to select from results, and populate some or all fields, including any track info.

3. Create a new record and enter some or all data manually. The program will not search or use data online unless you say so. It's up to you to enter what data you want.

4. If a directory or disk of audio files are selected, the program can enter just the file name, or it can use any tag info in the files for various fields, or it can, if you issue the command, search for data online and allow you to choose from results.

In short, it's a very flexible system, with various fields available for each record, and you don't need to fill up all of them. You can fill up some or all fields manually, let the program read for the data (whether audio files or the disk itself), or let the program search online and allow you to choose from results.

From there, the program can display as albums, including any album covers, or tables of album titles or tracks. One can sort by composer, album title, performer, genre, album title, track titles, etc. Of course, if you don't enter any data in a particular field, then the records with blank data for a field will appear first if you sort by that field.

You can search by field or enter keywords and search across various fields. For various fields, you can enter more than one set of information or use other fields, like a text box for notes.

Finally, you can export all or some of the data and in different ways (as album covers with some info, tables, etc.) and formats (spreadsheet, web page, PDF, etc.).


----------



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Very thankul for your explanation, it was exhaustive indeed!

I would tell you why these features are not enough for me, but I prefer to do that in a thread that I will soon start to explain in what consists my own project. You're all invited to take part in it.


----------



## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I cannot think of any other features to add, but probably because my needs are simpler. Perhaps workstations and servers might be helpful for those with more needs (like librarians), but competing software already have that (they have a version for home users and one for those working in institutions and need networked databases).

Yes, please let me know about the new thread.


----------

