# What do you think of guitar shredders?



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

I find them boring to death. I don't like these guitar virtuosos at all. But what's your opinion about them?


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

The majority of them have plenty of superficial technique, but no musicality. 'Shredding' for shredding's sake is almost always unmusical and the equivalent of musical masturbati0n. Less is nearly always more.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I usually like shredders! It's fun


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Honestly...


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Ok, I'm going to be the only counter opinion thus far. It seems strange to me to see virtuosity on an instrument as a bad thing, and in most cases it isn't. But in the realm of guitar, and generally rock and metal guitar (though not only that) it is often seen as this terrible thing for people to be damn good at their instrument. My take on shredding is that it can convey a range of emotions, of excitement, adrenaline, and intensity that is simply impossible to obtain in any other way. I'm not saying other music can't evoke emotions like this, just not in the exact way that virtuosic guitar playing can. 

I just want to make clear the kind of music I'm talking about. Often times casual fans of metal and rock will point to a particular pretty good guitar player as if they are just the best in the world. This is usually just a case of ignorance on their part. People like, say, Slash, Eddie Van Halen, Kurt Hammet, Dimebag Darrel or somebody like that are great guitar players, but by no means on the technical level of the people who get called "shredders". I'm talking about people like Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Buckethead, Michael Angelo Batio, Inwie Malmsteen, and of course John Petrucci (my favorite). I don't like all these guitar palyers' music, like Malmsteen's, but I enjoy most of the others. But anyway, my point is that these guitar players write some really great music and really showcase what the guitar can do.

I'm a guitar player, and I've played for about 15 years (started when I was 11), and maybe this kind of music is more like guitar player's music rather than conventional listeners of rock and metal. It may have more of a target market among the more musically savvy in general.

A notion that it seems to me is in a lot of people's head is that technicality is somehow incompatible with emotion, or musicality, or just plain good songwriting. Essentially I would say that technicality does not equal good music, nor does technicality equal bad music. There is good and bad, or stuff one might like and dislike just like in all genres.

Eh, that was a lot. I guess all of that is where my opinion is at.


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

I want to tell you a short story. I started playing electric guitar when I was 12. I used to like thrash metal at that time and I used to practice this fast solos all the time. Then I threw metal away and I started exploring garage rock/alternative/indie rock bands. As I grew up, I got interested in avant-garde music, 20th century classical music and experimental/ambient electronic music thanks to Aphex Twin, Flying Lotus, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Radiohead. And even though I still enjoy a few Indie/alternative rock bands, I started feeling a little bit sad about playing my guitar because I couldn't relate to it anymore. The only guitarists I still love are Jonny Greenwood from Radiohead and Robert Fripp from King Crimson. When I see a guy playing this fast solos I get sick! I can't stand it! I see it as something boring to me. Sometimes these guys play four chord songs using meaningless fast arpeggios and stuff! 


Now I want to explore electronics, drum machines and piano.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

PresenTense said:


> I want to tell you a short story. I started playing electric guitar when I was 12. I used to like thrash metal at that time and I used to practice this fast solos all the time. Then I threw metal away and I started exploring garage rock/alternative/indie rock bands. As I grew up, I got interested in avant-garde music, 20th century classical music and experimental/ambient electronic music thanks to Aphex Twin, Flying Lotus, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Radiohead. And even though I still enjoy a few Indie/alternative rock bands, I started feeling a little bit sad about playing my guitar because I couldn't relate to it anymore. The only guitarists I still love are Jonny Greenwood from Radiohead and Robert Fripp from King Crimson. When I see a guy playing this fast solos I get sick! I can't stand it! I see it as something boring to me. Sometimes these guys play four chord songs using meaningless fast arpeggios and stuff!
> 
> Now I want to explore electronics, drum machines and piano.


I don't know any songs that just play four chord songs using fast arpeggios. That sounds pretty boring to me too.


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

Dedalus said:


> Ok, I'm going to be the only counter opinion thus far. It seems strange to me to see virtuosity on an instrument as a bad thing, and in most cases it isn't. But in the realm of guitar, and generally rock and metal guitar (though not only that) it is often seen as this terrible thing for people to be damn good at their instrument. My take on shredding is that it can convey a range of emotions, of excitement, adrenaline, and intensity that is simply impossible to obtain in any other way. I'm not saying other music can't evoke emotions like this, just not in the exact way that virtuosic guitar playing can.
> 
> I just want to make clear the kind of music I'm talking about. Often times casual fans of metal and rock will point to a particular pretty good guitar player as if they are just the best in the world. This is usually just a case of ignorance on their part. People like, say, Slash, Eddie Van Halen, Kurt Hammet, Dimebag Darrel or somebody like that are great guitar players, but by no means on the technical level of the people who get called "shredders". I'm talking about people like Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Buckethead, Michael Angelo Batio, Inwie Malmsteen, and of course John Petrucci (my favorite). I don't like all these guitar palyers' music, like Malmsteen's, but I enjoy most of the others. But anyway, my point is that these guitar players write some really great music and really showcase what the guitar can do.
> 
> ...


That's a good point. I don't hate virtuosity in music at all. I mean, classical music has a lot of virtuosity and I like jazz guitarists (even though I prefer pianists) too. But I think virtuosity in guitars have a balance in jazz that I can't find in other genres like metal or rock. But it's just to me.


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

Dedalus said:


> I don't know any songs that just play four chord songs using fast arpeggios. That sounds pretty boring to me too.


I have seen a lot of these guys that love shredding so much playing songs like that. I mean, if they love it and makes them happy, that's really cool. But unfortunately it doesn't work for me. I don't like these guys that have to use all these techniques all the time for every single thing they play. Sometimes less is more. My brain can't find a balance in the way they use their virtuosity.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Dedalus said:


> Ok, I'm going to be the only counter opinion thus far. It seems strange to me to see virtuosity on an instrument as a bad thing, and in most cases it isn't. But in the realm of guitar, and generally rock and metal guitar (though not only that) it is often seen as this terrible thing for people to be damn good at their instrument. My take on shredding is that it can convey a range of emotions, of excitement, adrenaline, and intensity that is simply impossible to obtain in any other way. I'm not saying other music can't evoke emotions like this, just not in the exact way that virtuosic guitar playing can.
> 
> I just want to make clear the kind of music I'm talking about. Often times casual fans of metal and rock will point to a particular pretty good guitar player as if they are just the best in the world. This is usually just a case of ignorance on their part. People like, say, Slash, Eddie Van Halen, Kurt Hammet, Dimebag Darrel or somebody like that are great guitar players, but by no means on the technical level of the people who get called "shredders". I'm talking about people like Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Buckethead, Michael Angelo Batio, Inwie Malmsteen, and of course John Petrucci (my favorite). I don't like all these guitar palyers' music, like Malmsteen's, but I enjoy most of the others. But anyway, my point is that these guitar players write some really great music and really showcase what the guitar can do.
> 
> ...


Many of the names you mention are the very ones I accuse of musical masturbati0n. I once walked out of a John Petrucci 'performance' because it was so self-indulgent and lacking true musical invention (imho) that I couldn't stand it anymore. He was a support act for the people I had actually gone to see (the Esbjörn Svensson Trio). Yngwie Malmsteen is more concerned with how many notes he can play each second than what those notes actually mean. It's empty showmanship, nothing more.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Dedalus said:


> This is usually just a case of ignorance on their part. People like, say, Slash, Eddie Van Halen, *Kurt Hammet*


I'm sure it's just an error but :lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

PresenTense said:


> That's a good point. I don't hate virtuosity in music at all. I mean, classical music has a lot of virtuosity and I like jazz guitarists (even though I prefer pianists) too. But I think virtuosity in guitars have a balance in jazz that I can't find in other genres like metal or rock. But it's just to me.


more than balance, I think it's a combination of different things. In jazz musicians have usually a knowledge of theory and harmony that is way deeper than that of the usual shredder, and very often (with some exception, like a lot of early Al Di Meola, and in fact I'm not a fan of him) even when they play extremely fast like let's say, Linc Chamberland, Tisziji Munoz, Allan Holdsworth or Pasquale Grasso to name a few there's more a feel of stream of consciousness than just the "look at me" that one gets listening to the usual rock shredder.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Playing fast does not mean someone is a virtuoso. There are many other challenging musical prerequisites that define virtuouso. Playing at fast tempos is only one of them. I'd say playing a ballad or a blues with good tone, phrasing, timing, feel, taste, and overall musicality is much harder than ripping up and down the fretboard doing metal licks. And playing a jazz chord melody is even harder.

Steve Vai is a wonderful guy, and a brilliant musician and guitarist, and so is Satriani. But I'd rather listen to Van Halen when it comes to that type of music because he's got songs. And he can be a rhythm guitarist and accompanist, as well as a dynamic lead player. I find it more satisfying to listen to. 

Al DiMeola is a very good ensemble player, and a pretty talented composer. He has great timing, chops, tone, vibrato, but his soloing is sorely lacking when it comes to musical invention and sustaining any kind of an interesting musical narrative for more than a few bars. His solos almost always disolve into an empty display of flaming triplets. I'd rather listen to Frank Zappa for solos. He wasn't a virtuoso, but he had loads of melodic ideas, and could sustain an interesting solo for 6-8 minutes. I also love Robben Ford. He's more blues based, but he has good taste, and great tones and phrasing. And an instantly recognizable sound.


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

I've listend to technical death metal in the past... which is basically a broodle version of the typical scalemaster 3000 type shredding and a giant sweep picking competition. Just being able to play fast doesn't mean anything if your musical ideas are bland and don't take care of dynamics, timbre etc.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I was a big fan of Satriani for his first few albums (especially Surfing) but went off him after a number of very average releases. I suppose Eddie Van Halen was the first 'shredder' that opened my eyes and seeing Van Halen support Sabbath in 1978 blew me away. I've seen some great guitarists live from the classic rock era of the late 70s and early 80s - Moore, Nugent, Iommi, Schenker, etc but one guy who really impressed me, live, was Robert Fripp. Sat on a stool, stage right, he rattled off exceptional licks effortlessly. Wonderful guitarist.

As far as new shredders are concerned my favourite is Buckethead. He's not just a shredder. He can play blues, acoustic , funk - the lot and was a student of another exceptional guitarist, Paul Gilbert. Brilliant guitar player and a huge range of recordings to explore (264 solo albums to date) that range from ambient acoustic to shred. You either love him or hate him but he's a talented guy.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^At least you've got a good selection of Albums to chose from.............

For me in terms of Shredders, its Steve Vai for me


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Try this for size - Trevor Ravin's _Solly's Beard_.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2016)

I've always thought that Ritchie Blackmore played with a good balance of speed and musicality. Yes, he could play quite fast when he chose to, but melody and emotion seemed more important to him. Another favorite is Jimi Hendrix. Now, he couldn't begin to play as many notes per second as can most "shredders," but his playing was so much more interesting and intense because his notes actually _said something_. Mindless speed is very boring to me.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kontrapunctus said:


> I've always thought that Ritchie Blackmore played with a good balance of speed and musicality. Yes, he could play quite fast when he chose to, but melody and emotion seemed more important to him. Another favorite is Jimi Hendrix. *Now, he couldn't begin to play as many notes per second as can most "shredders,*" but his playing was so much more interesting and intense because his notes actually _said something_. Mindless speed is very boring to me.


I agree with you, but that's why I would not put him in the "shredders" category.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2016)

Meet the man who invented tapping and shredding.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Merl said:


> I was a big fan of Satriani for his first few albums (especially Surfing) but went off him after a number of very average releases. I suppose Eddie Van Halen was the first 'shredder' that opened my eyes and seeing Van Halen support Sabbath in 1978 blew me away. I've seen some great guitarists live from the classic rock era of the late 70s and early 80s - Moore, Nugent, Iommi, Schenker, etc but one guy who really impressed me, live, was Robert Fripp. Sat on a stool, stage right, he rattled off exceptional licks effortlessly. Wonderful guitarist.
> 
> As far as new shredders are concerned my favourite is Buckethead. He's not just a shredder. He can play blues, acoustic , funk - the lot and was a student of another exceptional guitarist, Paul Gilbert. Brilliant guitar player and a huge range of recordings to explore (264 solo albums to date) that range from ambient acoustic to shred. You either love him or hate him but he's a talented guy.


onestly I've always been curious about Buckethead, because he's considered the strange one, sort of mad scientist of shredding but everytime I listen something of him I've been quite disapponted. For instance this video to me it's exactly the definition of mindless wankery. He sure can play extremely fast, but the phrasing is banal in the extreme, I don't see absolutely no interest in something like that. And the other kind of pieces I've heard him play is some "romantic" tune not particularly interesting, that it's not what I would like to hear from someone who studied on the thesaurus of Slonimsky.


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

Here are some videos of my "favorite" guitarists...

Mick Barr (who has also written a String Quartet which was commissioned by the Kronos Quartet):













Colin Marston:




 (bass guitar part of some new Dysrhythmia tracks, the other guitarist, Kevin Hufnagel, is great, too. He has exceptional tone/timbre control )


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