# Italian Opera-Why?



## chrismaninoff (Apr 15, 2020)

Hi All, 

I'm a pianist who has coached opera students and played the piano parts for several operas, both in performance and rehearsal. Until recently I really hated all of it. However, thanks to the MET's Ring recording and a few other great recordings, I've realized that I actually do like Wagner and most French opera. What I can't stand is Italian Opera. 

I just don't feel any sort of emotion, ever. It's just I, V, I, V, I, V, I, V, trill, I. The end, repeat ad nauseum. 

Now, I didn't post here just to complain. I want to like it because then I can coach italian opera, and also listen to and enjoy it. So for those who do like it, what was your gateway drug? Or what are the aspects of it that you listen for and love about it?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Your description of Italian opera sounds like Verdi and earlier. What about Puccini? You may not like his music, but I don't see how anyone could describe it as unemotional.

When it comes to the earlier composers it all depends on the singers. Most of today's singers are just going through the I V I V singing by numbers, but if you go back and listen to the greats (try Rigoletto with Gobbi/Callas/Di Stefano) from the 50s and 60s that might open the door to earlier nineteenth century Italian opera.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

By "Italian opera," what composers are you talking about? Your simplified harmonic scheme suggests a rather narrow historical period embracing Mozart to early Verdi.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The Conte said:


> Your description of Italian opera sounds like Verdi and earlier. What about Puccini? You may not like his music, but I don't see how anyone could describe it as unemotional.
> 
> When it comes to the earlier composers it all depends on the singers. Most of today's singers are just going through the I V I V singing by numbers, but if you go back and listen to the greats (try Rigoletto with Gobbi/Callas/Di Stefano) from the 50s and 60s that might open the door to earlier nineteenth century Italian opera.
> 
> N.


Listening to the greats is a really good recommendation! My gateway operas into Verdi were _Otello_ and _Don Carlo(s)_. I got into opera through the German repertoire, mainly Wagner, and thus the heavier music and more complex plots were a good fit.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Puccini: King of emotional and romantic
Followed right along by Giordano (Andrea Chenier), ol' cornball himself Cilea, (Adriana Lecouvreur)


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

There can be a certain amount repetitiousness with early Italian opera. At that time, it was largely entertainment, and many of the operas of Donizetti and Rossini were written at great speed as theaters commissioned them. Bellini also worked this way, although he was less speedy. This can lead to a sense of sameness and little interest. There are only a few works by these early composers that are of particular interest me. The ones that great are indeed very great, however.

Donizetti: _Lucia di Lammermoor_, _Dom Sebastien_, _Don Pasquale_, _L'elisir d'amore_
Rossini: _Guillaume Tell_
Bellini: _Norma_, _La sonnambula_

The greatest gift and emphasis of these composers is vocal melody. Accompaniment, which I'm sure you've noticed is often just arpeggios, was kept simple to help keep the text clear. That's not to say there aren't some brilliant moments in the orchestral scores, but the goal was to be expressive through the vocal line. The singer is supremely important in these operas, and unfortunately interest in them has coincided with a decline in quality in the singers. Bellini is my favorite "bel canto" composer because I think he was the best at creating emotionally powerful and psychologically compelling melodies. They are also exquisitely beautiful.

Some ways bel canto composers use vocal melody for expression. With bel canto opera, it's really important to also have the text in mind, as much as many of the operas use stock characters and expression. The best bel canto operas do something more original with the text, and this often inspires the best music and dramaturgy from the composer.

Una voce poco fa 




At 1:45 you can hear how the music "strikes" and "retreats", like a snake biting and slithering away. This is a little bit of clever tone painting as she's talking about how she's like snake which, if struck in its weak spot, will strike. Little things like this abound in bel canto vocal writing.

Casta diva. Of course this is the king of bel canto melodies, and one of the most sublime of all arias.




At 3:00, you can hear her saying, "A noi volgi, a noi volgi il bel sembiante." (Turn to us your beautiful visage) At this point, the music swells and and after the word sembiante we get a repeated B natural. This is the "vision" of the moon goddess, which she then goes on to ask for the vision to be "senza nube e senza vel"(cloudless and unveiled). This beautiful moment comes from a lovely libretto that is elaborated on in meldoy by Bellini. In these moments, bel canto is extremely moving.

I'm not at all a fan of early Verdi. In fact, I dislike many more Verdi operas than I like, in part because of the pointless and silly libretti that he often set. I would look into some of the operas suggested above such as _Don Carlo_, and especially _Otello_. His harmonic language and orchestration expands as he gets older, and he moves in a bit of a Wagnerian direction.

Still Verdi's earlier work like _Rigoletto_ and _La traviata_ can be very moving if well done. _Traviata_ is an example of great vocal writing.




In addition to beautiful melody, it contains an important theme that will recur throughout the opera, and Verdi uses Violetta's vocal line to express her initial rejection and hesitation followed by her ultimate acceptance of Alfredo's love. When she enter's at 1:30 and following, her staccati and runs sound like laughter, as though she's rebuffing him with laughter. Throughout the duet, she goes back and forth between laughing at and harmonizing with. Of course, the ending leaves no doubt where she ends up. It's a beautiful piece of vocal character writing.

Puccini was the master of this sort of thing, and he also incorporated a much wider harmonic vocabulary than anyone but Verdi had done in the mainstream of Italian opera. He wrote throughcomposed pieces that full of both Wagnerian and traditional Italian characteristics, as well as, especially after _La boheme_, influence from French composers like Debussy (the opening motif of Tosca is a whole tone scale in the bass, for example, and by _Madama Butterfly_ his scores are filled with impressionist touches). He also did many things that were unique. Puccini was by far the greatest opera composer for setting casual conversation. He also has masterly control over the "sonic picture" or the atmosphere and environment. People appear and disappear, motifs and orchestral touches arise and submerge that create a three dimensional soundscape. It's really amazing. For good examples of this, see _La fanciulla del west_, and most strikingly, _Il tabarro_. _Il tabarro_ opens with a beautiful motif that takes its time to settle into any particular key. Throughout the opera there are tone clusters, rich dissonant harmonies, tritones, and parallel progressions. _Fanciulla_ and _Turandot_ have many of these elements as well.

But the things about Italian opera is that it's drama first, and a slightly different conception than you get from a Wagner. Drama was primarily communicated through the human voice. Only with very late Verdi and Puccini, and moving into other composers of that period like Mascagni, Leoncavallo, Catalani, and Giordano, do you get a big emphasis on expansive orchestrations. That's not to say the earlier composers were unexpressive orchestrally (I mean, the overture to _Guillaume Tell_ is one of the most famous orchestra pieces there is) but it's not the main emphasis. You have to look at how the vocal line elaborates the text and move from there.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

No pun intended but I feel sorry for your students.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> No pun intended but I feel sorry for your students.


Where's the unintended pun?

N.


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## chrismaninoff (Apr 15, 2020)

@vivalagentenuova

Wow, thank you for this very well-thought out response! 

I'm realizing thanks to this that perhaps my fault in listening to Italian opera has to do with spending too little time in the libretto. I did watch Rigoletto at the MET in 2019 and that was quite enjoyable. I had chalked it up to the spectacle of the opera, but I'm now thinking that perhaps having the libretto before me was more important than the show. 

This leads me to think that we almost have to think of opera more as theatre than as a concert. Perhaps this is obvious to some of you but it's something new for me haha. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and these lovely arias! I'm glad you chose an old recording of Una voce poco fa. I love it.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

@ chrismaninoff,
If you accompany singers in Italian opera arias, you're probably doing a piano reduction of the orchestra, which until late Verdi, is what is termed "a big guitar" accompaniment. Boring for the accompanist. 
Perhaps you could try some of Franz Liszt opera transcriptions, of operas by Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, and Verdi. They would possibly help you appreciate those composers melodic inspiration, or, at least, of Liszt brilliant transcriptions!

Here's one of them


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't care for a lot of operas for that same reason. 
Anyway as other says probably that's true for a specific period of italian opera. 
For instance I love I Shardana, which altough not well known is often considered the best italian opera post WW2


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

norman bates said:


> For instance I love I Shardana, which altough not well known is often considered the best italian opera post WW2


I really appreciate I Shardana too and consider it among the best italian Opera post WW2 but I find the statement "often considered the best italian opera post WW2" hollow because it ignores all the other body of works produced in those decades.
When I think to the italian operas post WW2 that I consider the most worthy (Ghedini's Le Baccanti, G.F. Malipiero's Le metamorfosi di Bonaventura, Pizzetti's Il calzare d'argento, Bucchi's il contrabbasso, Fiume's Il tamburo di panno, Maderna's Don Perlimplin, Vlad's Il dottore di vetro, Lupi's La danza di Salomè, Dallapiccola's Il prigioniero, Luzzatto's Re Salomone) and try to compare them to I Shardana to determine which is the best of the best, well, I simply cannot choose because they are often so different that any comparison is moot.
Ignorance is bliss for a reason.



nina foresti said:


> Puccini: King of emotional and romantic


The problem I have with Puccini is that I often find his way to elicit an emotional response from the spectator to be artificial.
For me Il trittico were the three Opera pieces where he was the most spontaneous.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

I'm going to just add to what vivalagentenuova has very well explained.

I have a simple theory. Most musicians/instrumentalists will not really like Italian Opera because..well.. It is OPERA, an art of singing and acting combined. They will however like Wagner and later composers, because their main focus wasn't the human instrument. They somewhat steered away from traditions that defined Opera.

Verdi and Belcanto composers, however, wrote with singers in mind. They were the main instrument. The rest was just accompaniment for the singing and the words being said. The result is by far the most beautiful and DEMANDING music for singers, but less interesting music for musicians.

Singers will almost always prefer Italian opera. Nilsson, one of the greatest Wagnerians, said that "her voice was not a good fit with what she described as the softer textures and refined tones of Italian operas" (Wikipedia)

In the end I'll let Maestro Muti do the talking:


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tuoksu said:


> I'm going to just add to what vivalagentenuova has very well explained.
> 
> I have a simple theory. Most musicians/instrumentalists will not really like Italian Opera because..well.. It is OPERA, an art of singing and acting combined. They will however like Wagner and later composers, because their main focus wasn't the human instrument. They somewhat steered away from traditions that defined Opera.
> 
> ...


Muti is wonderfully passionate in his explanations, especially when he talks about the conductor who is a "pirla" :lol:. I would like to remind @chrismaninoff that Wagner adored Bellini to the point that he composed a Bellini-lie aria for Oroveso when conducting Norma (the aria is "Norma il predesse"). As anything in music, Italian opera is another "language" that is acquired and eventually loved. The same is true for Liszt's admiration for Verdi, ergo his paraphrases.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Muti is wonderfully passionate in his explanations, especially when he talks about the conductor who is a "pirla" :lol:. I would like to remind @chrismaninoff that *Wagner adored Bellini to the point that he composed a Bellini-lie aria for Oroveso when conducting Norma* (the aria is "Norma il predesse"). As anything in music, Italian opera is another "language" that is acquired and eventually loved. The same is true for Liszt's admiration for Verdi, ergo his paraphrases.


His article about Bellini is almost like a confession of faith that is somewhat amusing to read :lol:.



> How often has it happened to us that we have been charmed with the performance of an Italian of French Opera, and on leaving the theatre have scoffingly indulged in sorry jokes at the excitement we have felt, and reaching home have been conscience smitten that we ought to guard ourselves against being too easily excited! But if for once we abstain from joking on such a subject, and leave our conscience to take care of itself, and at the same time have a clear conception as to what it is that had just charmed us, we come to the conclusion that, especially in the case of Bellini, it was his pure melody, his simple, noble and beautiful cantilena which we have found so charming. To observe this and pin our faith upon it is indeed no crime; nor, perhaps, is it even a crime, on going to bed, to offer up a prayer to heaven that equally beautiful melodies and as excellent mode of treating vocal art may at last be vouchsafed to German composers - melody, melody, and again I say melody, ye Germans!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Not feel emotion ? In life in general or just in Italian opera? Life consists of expressing emotion and so does music. That they Italians do it rather better than anyone else in opera isn’t their fault. Funny, Cenerentola can have me in tears while Tristan leaves me completely unmoved (though admiring). Mozart moves me more than any other but he was only an imitation Italian.


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## Dulova Harps On (Nov 2, 2018)

Being new to Opera myself I'm enjoying reading this thread I listened to Il tabarro last night based on what I read on here and am loving it so far!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Not feel emotion ? In life in general or just in Italian opera? Life consists of expressing emotion and so does music. That they Italians do it rather better than anyone else in opera isn't their fault. Funny, Cenerentola can have me in tears while Tristan leaves me completely unmoved (though admiring). Mozart moves me more than any other but he was only an imitation Italian.


We are all different and I am with you on this one: I admire Wagner, I do love his music but he does not move me. I admire Puccini probably less than Wagner but his music touches me deeply. So does Beethoven - so it is probably not just an Italian thing...


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Dulova Harps On said:


> Being new to Opera myself I'm enjoying reading this thread I listened to Il tabarro last night based on what I read on here and am loving it so far!


You picked a hard one. It Tabarro is probably one of the darkest operas because of its hopelessness. It is a great opera to suffer through! If you can get your hands on the Met DVD with MacNeil, Scotto and Moldoveanu you will see a great performance - not perfect - but harrowing as they got it through in all its despair.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Dulova Harps On said:


> Being new to Opera myself I'm enjoying reading this thread I listened to Il tabarro last night based on what I read on here and am loving it so far!


I started with Rigoletto. Great stuff!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

VitellioScarpia said:


> *We are all different and I am with you on this one*: I admire Wagner, I do love his music but he does not move me. I admire Puccini probably less than Wagner but his music touches me deeply. So does Beethoven - so it is probably not just an Italian thing...


Indeed, we are all different! I personally find Wagner to be by far the most electrifying. The Italians are surely emotionally appealing but the feeling is not as enduring. Wagner just takes me to an entirely different world, the psychology of his characters is super complex, I love his libretti and the music is just mad! (This didn't really help with the original matter of the thread but nevermind :lol


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

annaw said:


> Indeed, we are all different! I personally find Wagner to be by far the most electrifying. The Italians are surely emotionally appealing but the feeling is not as enduring. Wagner just takes me to an entirely different world, the psychology of his characters is super complex, I love his libretti and the music is just mad! (This didn't really help with the original matter of the thread but nevermind :lol


And I'm different still. I agree with you about Wagner -- I find his operas both moving and admirable, and he absolutely creates a whole world to explore. But I feel the exact same way about Puccini. Il tabarro is a whole world, and there is complex psychology, metaphorical significance, thematic interest, and gorgeous, complex music.

But then I love _Norma_ and _Sonnambula_ too.



VitellioScarpia said:


> You picked a hard one. It Tabarro is probably one of the darkest operas because of its hopelessness. It is a great opera to suffer through! If you can get your hands on the Met DVD with MacNeil, Scotto and Moldoveanu you will see a great performance - not perfect - but harrowing as they got it through in all its despair.


Moldoveanu is really good, but I can't stand Scotto's voice and MacNeil is wobbly by that time. It is a good staging, though. Anyone who loves this opera must listen to Petrella's Giorgetta. She is definitive. Infinitely better than Scotto, imo.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Moldoveanu is really good, but I can't stand Scotto's voice and MacNeil is wobbly by that time. It is a good staging, though. Anyone who loves this opera must listen to Petrella's Giorgetta. She is definitive. Infinitely better than Scotto, imo.


_Chacun a sòn goût_! 

I admire Petrella's but I prefer Scotto's interpretation overall. Scotto's voice was what it was at that time but she made Giorgetta pathos disturbing and at the same time so poetic. For example: her hands gesture when she sings to Luigi "Noi soli, via lontani" in the reprise of their duet as if she were letting a bird fly out without appearing contrived. This is only one of the many details in an interpretation to which I come back to when I want to watch Il Tabarro. I know Scotto is an acquired taste for many but she could make opera alarmingly real to me.

BTW, I also _love_ Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi...


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

VitellioScarpia said:


> _Chacun a sòn goût_!
> 
> I admire Petrella's but I prefer Scotto's interpretation overall. Scotto's voice was what it was at that time but she made Giorgetta pathos disturbing and at the same time so poetic. For example: her hands gesture when she sings to Luigi "Noi soli, via lontani" in the reprise of their duet as if she were letting a bird fly out without appearing contrived. This is only one of the many details in an interpretation to which I come back to when I want to watch Il Tabarro. I know Scotto is an acquired taste for many but she could make opera alarmingly real to me.
> 
> BTW, I also _love_ Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi...


I agree she's an engaging actress visually, but for me opera is not only voice but entirely dependent on the voice. Her pinched shrill sound takes me out of the opera. I'm just hearing Scotto having problems, not Giorgetta at all. For me one of the details that makes Petrella's 1949 interpretation stand out is the way she sings the line "la volutta' e' piu' intensa", drawing out the aaaaa. Some fabulous vocal acting.


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## Dulova Harps On (Nov 2, 2018)

VitellioScarpia said:


> You picked a hard one. It Tabarro is probably one of the darkest operas because of its hopelessness. It is a great opera to suffer through! If you can get your hands on the Met DVD with MacNeil, Scotto and Moldoveanu you will see a great performance - not perfect - but harrowing as they got it through in all its despair.


Yes i guess you may think it's an odd choice for only my third opera (listening to in full, that is). I had tried some Verdi and was not quite ready to tackle Wagner's Ring cycle just yet. Enjoyed Bellini's Norma and Il Tabarro engaged me immediately, especially that beautiful opening motif that reoccurs throughout the first act. Now on to La Traviata and La Boheme most likely.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Dulova Harps On said:


> Yes i guess you may think it's an odd choice for only my third opera (listening to in full, that is). I had tried some Verdi and was not quite ready to tackle Wagner's Ring cycle just yet. Enjoyed Bellini's Norma and Il Tabarro engaged me immediately, especially that beautiful opening motif that reoccurs throughout the first act. Now on to La Traviata and La Boheme most likely.


If you enjoy Puccini, you may want to try Gianni Schicchi which is a comedy and shows a lighter side of what opera can be.


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## Dulova Harps On (Nov 2, 2018)

VitellioScarpia said:


> If you enjoy Puccini, you may want to try Gianni Schicchi which is a comedy and shows a lighter side of what opera can be.


Thanks so much, I shall try out Gianni Schicchi and let you know my opinion.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I'll be honest a few months ago I would have disregarded italian opera all together. That all changed when I relistened to Don Giovanni only this time in english. Being able to understand it meant for the first time I was able to listen to the end without getting bored. Now I can listen happily in the original italian.

A few months later at the Pristine Classical birthday sale i ended up with more things than I should (I blame my husband for being away for the weekend) amongst them was the 1929 Molajoli Barber of Seville and the 1930 Molajoli Rigoletto. The Rigoletto blew my mind for the first time I was captivated with an italian opera. It was pretty much perfection. For the record I also love the 1929 Barber of Seville.

Now I then Join TC after lurking for a while and this thread pops up! I am then inspired to start an in depth listen to italian opera.

Now thanks largely to Naxos Historical I have over 10 Italian operas i have enjoyed very much and think I will add to my normal rotation and 4 more I want to explore further

Rigoletto
Il Trovatore
Don Giovanni
Barber of Seville
Mefistofele
La Traviata
La Forza del Destino
Lucia di Lammermoor
La Gioconda
Fedora
Cosi fan tutte
Marriage of Figaro
Simon Boccanegra
Don Carlo

So thank you for the great journey I've had exploring and reexploring some great works!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

zxxyxxz said:


> I'll be honest a few months ago I would have disregarded italian opera all together. That all changed when I relistened to Don Giovanni only this time in english. Being able to understand it meant for the first time I was able to listen to the end without getting bored. Now I can listen happily in the original italian.
> 
> A few months later at the Pristine Classical birthday sale i ended up with more things than I should (I blame my husband for being away for the weekend) amongst them was the 1929 Molajoli Barber of Seville and the 1930 Molajoli Rigoletto. The Rigoletto blew my mind for the first time I was captivated with an italian opera. It was pretty much perfection. For the record I also love the 1929 Barber of Seville.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that what once did not strike a chord in us, at some other time it would cause a tremendous impression. I guess that traveling through life makes some things all of a sudden be meaningful. For a long time Tchaikovsky did not really speak to me until one day I finally heard him and it was a revelation. That is the magic of art -- and in my case music -- that it never ceases to surprise us. I am glad to hear about those discoveries from others.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

VitellioScarpia said:


> It is interesting that what once did not strike a chord in us, at some other time it would cause a tremendous impression. I guess that traveling through life makes some things all of a sudden be meaningful. For a long time Tchaikovsky did not really speak to me until one day I finally heard him and it was a revelation. That is the magic of art -- and in my case music -- that it never ceases to surprise us. I am glad to hear about those discoveries from others.


I've been very surprised to discover that I like a lot of Janacek after years of not enjoying his operas.

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I've been very surprised to discover that I like a lot of Janacek after years of not enjoying his operas.
> 
> N.


I could not get Janacek either until I fell over backward with The Makropoulus Case.


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