# Who is the best Kundry?



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Kundry is my favorite female character in Wagner operas, maybe in all operas.

Who is the best Kundry in your opinion? 

Martha Modl "owns" the role in the 1950s, but I just don't like her voice.

Knapperbutsch worked with a few other singers in the role, like Irene Dalis, Regine Crespin, Barbro Ericson. Their voices are more pleasing to the ear, but not exactly memorable. 

I have the sample problem with Waltraud Meier, who is a tremendous actress. 

That leaves Christa Ludwig. There is a studio recording of her with Solti, which I have not tried. How is she doing there?

Do you know when will Marston release the live Parsifal with Melchior and Flagstad?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Definitely Waltraud Meier. As great in sound as the Wagnerian heavyweights are, they don't present much a challenge to dear Parsifal in repulsing their "seduction".


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Try Leonie Rysanek - a 1982 Parsifal excerpt you can find on YouTube. ... Forget about Siegfried Jerusalem (Parsifal) while you're at it ...


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

One more suggestion - Astrid Varnay ... also on YouTube.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Vocally, I'll take Christa Ludwig and Irene Dalis. I prefer a mezzo quality - I think it's more seductive, more maternal (remember that Kundry comes to Parsifal as a mother-substitute), and more tragic - but mezzos can't always handle the high climaxes in the second act. Those two can. Waltraud Meier is superb in the role but lacks the dark, smoldering quality I like.

I agree about Modl. Second to none in characterization, and probably magnificent onstage, she's just too vocally odd.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I'm not usually the one beating this drum, but I really like Callas in this role.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I'm not usually the one beating this drum, but I really like Callas in this role.


Callas sings the role in Italian, which I hope doesn't count against her.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I'm not usually the one beating this drum, but I really like Callas in this role.


Likewise. She's worth the mention despite the fact that Wagner in Italian isn't quite Wagner. Somehow "ridi!" doesn't have the bite of "lachte!"


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck - About Modl, I should agree. Maybe you have the 10th CD, of the 10-CD set devoted to Ms. Modl, on the ol' www.intensemedia.de label/production ... as the 10th CD focuses-IN on her Kundry, with Clemens Krauss and Hans Knappertsbusch ... yes, those excellent, Wagnerian conductors, from older days ....


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Callas, in Wagner? ... and never mind that she "spoke", in Italian. She gave Wagner a GREAT try ... as Jussi Bjorling did, briefly, years before.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

^Rysanek and Varnay are singers I admire for their commitment (very good actress they must have been), but not for the sound. Varnay's scooping and Rysanek's often out-of-tune singing isn't a good match for Kundry.

An ideal Kundry for me should have the characterization of Modl/Meier, and the luscious sound of Flagstad/Ludwig.

I recently heard Margaret Harshaw (who was a mezzo in the 1940s then moved to Isolde and Brunnhilde in the 1950s) and enjoyed her a lot.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Likewise. She's worth the mention despite the fact that Wagner in Italian isn't quite Wagner. Somehow "ridi!" doesn't have the bite of "lachte!"


I agree. Callas' Kundry is worth a mention, but being in Italian works against it and I think she is surpassed by Meier and Modl.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Modl was to Kundry as Callas was to Norma. However, Waltraud Meier surpasses her.

For those who don't like those voices, perhaps you are looking for "who is your favourite Kundry?"

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Modl was to Kundry as Callas was to Norma. However, Waltraud Meier surpasses her.
> 
> For those who don't like those voices, perhaps you are looking for "who is your favourite Kundry?"
> 
> N.


One who hasn't been mentioned is Gwyneth Jones. She is one of the greatest actresses of all time and and the role sits well with her range. She began as a mezzo, by the way. I heard her as Kundry at age 15 but wasn't mature enough to know what I was hearing. Early in her career she could have reigned supreme in this role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Modl was to Kundry as Callas was to Norma. However, Waltraud Meier surpasses her.
> 
> For those who don't like those voices, perhaps you are looking for "who is your favourite Kundry?"
> 
> N.


Isn't everyone looking for that? Perhaps what we're looking for, precisely expressed, is "what singer offers the combination of vocal and interpretive qualities most convincing to me?" Trying to find the "best" Kundry is made difficult by the fact that of the most favored candidates only Meier has left us substantial visual documentation, and she was such a creative and compelling actress that if we allow the visual evidence into the equation she almost certainly has to take the prize.

Comparisons with Callas are perilous. She is clearly the greatest Norma of the past 70 years, at least. Modl was no doubt a tremendous Kundry in the theater, and her dramatic intensity comes through clearly on recordings, but strictly on vocal grounds she isn't even in the same universe as Callas. Meier is no Callas either, vocally, but she bears the comparison better than Modl, whose squeezed, lunging, guttural vocal production was quite peculiar and hard to imagine seducing Parsifal, at least if his own singing lessons taught him anything. That said, Kundry, being opera's first study in multiple personality disorder, seems to me the role that best accommodates Modl's manic expressionism, which evokes the world of Berg and Schoenberg more than that of Wagner. Hearing her, it's hard not to imagine a red fright wig, blue-white pancake, and black circles around her eyes.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Isn't everyone looking for that? Perhaps what we're looking for, precisely expressed, is "what singer offers the combination of vocal and interpretive qualities most convincing to me?" Trying to find the "best" Kundry is made difficult by the fact that of the most favored candidates only Meier has left us substantial visual documentation, and she was such a creative and compelling actress that if we allow the visual evidence into the equation she almost certainly has to take the prize.
> 
> Comparisons with Callas are perilous. She is clearly the greatest Norma of the past 70 years, at least. Modl was no doubt a tremendous Kundry in the theater, and her dramatic intensity comes through clearly on recordings, but strictly on vocal grounds she isn't even in the same universe as Callas. Meier is no Callas either, vocally, but she bears the comparison better than Modl, whose squeezed, lunging, guttural vocal production was quite peculiar and hard to imagine seducing Parsifal, at least if his own singing lessons taught him anything. That said, Kundry, being opera's first study in multiple personality disorder, seems to me the role that best accommodates Modl's manic expressionism, which evokes the world of Berg and Schoenberg more than that of Wagner. Hearing her, it's hard not to imagine a red fright wig, blue-white pancake, and black circles around her eyes.


Woodduck, how well you write about such things!!!! One reason for the difficulty here is that like Parsifal the opera, Kundry is best experienced as theater. Most of us never saw the people discusssed in the role live. Jones was fabulous, but I saw her in the role at 15 before I was an experienced opera goer. I think from my perspective the best we can do is decide on the best RECORDED Kundry, which I think you will agree is a very different thing than the best theatrical performance of Kundry. Meier is a fantastic actress of great beauty and I bet she is great in the role on video but I am not crazy about her voice. I could put up with it with the distraction of her beauty and thespian skills  like I did with her incredible Isolde in the movie. I enormously enjoyed Parsifal as the opening opera for our revamped opera house. It could be my favorite operatic performance, but I have never had a desire to listen to the music in my car after that event, unlike other Wagner operas.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Isn't everyone looking for that? Perhaps what we're looking for, precisely expressed, is "what singer offers the combination of vocal and interpretive qualities most convincing to me?" Trying to find the "best" Kundry is made difficult by the fact that of the most favored candidates only Meier has left us substantial visual documentation, and she was such a creative and compelling actress that if we allow the visual evidence into the equation she almost certainly has to take the prize.
> 
> Comparisons with Callas are perilous. She is clearly the greatest Norma of the past 70 years, at least. Modl was no doubt a tremendous Kundry in the theater, and her dramatic intensity comes through clearly on recordings, but strictly on vocal grounds she isn't even in the same universe as Callas. Meier is no Callas either, vocally, but she bears the comparison better than Modl, whose squeezed, lunging, guttural vocal production was quite peculiar and hard to imagine seducing Parsifal, at least if his own singing lessons taught him anything. That said, Kundry, being opera's first study in multiple personality disorder, seems to me the role that best accommodates Modl's manic expressionism, which evokes the world of Berg and Schoenberg more than that of Wagner. Hearing her, it's hard not to imagine a red fright wig, blue-white pancake, and black circles around her eyes.


I agree up to a certain point. Modl certainly wasn't as great a singer or as great an artist as Callas, but that wasn't the point I was making. Meier has all the dramatic intensity of Modl without the technical shortcomings and I see no issue with comparing her association with the role of Kundry with that of Callas' with Norma. It was the association with the respective role that I was comparing, not the two singers, there's a subtle difference there.

Comparisons with Callas are no doubt perilous and trying to discern the "best" singer in this or that role are just as fraught with danger. Some people don't like Callas' voice and so don't consider her the greatest Norma of the past 70 years, but there is a general consensus that Callas owned the role and hasn't been equaled, let alone surpassed since. There is a similar consensus about Modl's Kundry, despite her vocal faults and Meier has inherited that mantle. Perhaps we are too close to Meier's final Kundry to understand her greatness in the role. (This was a performance I saw in the theatre and that, no doubt, makes me biased and possibly just as much as those who didn't see it, but in a reverse fashion.)

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Woodduck, how well you write about such things!!!! One reason for the difficulty here is that like Parsifal the opera, Kundry is best experienced as theater. Most of us never saw the people discusssed in the role live. Jones was fabulous, but I saw her in the role at 15 before I was an experienced opera goer. I think from my perspective the best we can do is decide on the best RECORDED Kundry, which I think you will agree is a very different thing than the best theatrical performance of Kundry. Meier is a fantastic actress of great beauty and I bet she is great in the role on video but I am not crazy about her voice. I could put up with it with the distraction of her beauty and thespian skills like I did with her incredible Isolde in the movie. I enormously enjoyed Parsifal as the opening opera for our revamped opera house. It could be my favorite operatic performance, but I have never had a desire to listen to the music in my car after that event, unlike other Wagner operas.


I'm not sure that _Parsifal_ is best experienced as theater. My experience of it is different from yours. I did see it once, in a rather static, stodgily pious production at the Met with second-string singers that was hard to stay awake for, and I've watched a few videos of less stodgy but bizarre regie productions (the only kind we get nowadays) as well as the very strange Syberberg film (as if the opera were not strange enough already). I would love to have seen Wieland Wagner's famous production, with its austerely beautiful sets, during several years of which Martha Modl was a fixture as Kundry. I'd also love to see the opera filmed with an effort to give us a closeup view of the complexities and subtleties of the characters and a visual equivalent of the sublime score, which today could involve the imaginative use of computer-generated images. But as with all of Wagner's works, the score is almost miraculously evocative of its own peculiar world, and capable of generating vivid visual images in those of us whose brains work that way. Immersed in music that seems part of some surreal parallel universe, I don't long to be sitting in a theater.

Conrad Osborne remarked long ago that if _Die Meistersinger_ is the Wagner opera for non-Wagnerites, _Parsifal_ may be the Wagner opera for Wagnerites only. Evidently I'm among the latter, as the music had me transfixed from the very first time I heard it, and I don't find a single measure of it dull. But it does let us know from the first notes of the prelude that it isn't a work for casual or easy listening; I can't imagine, now that I'm old and past my youthful fanaticisms, listening to it often. However, I do get pleasure from reading comments here by younger folk devouring recording after recording and discovering the work's wonders.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not sure that _Parsifal_ is best experienced as theater. My experience of it is different from yours. I did see it once, in a rather static, stodgily pious production at the Met with second-string singers that was hard to stay awake for, and I've watched a few videos of less stodgy but bizarre regie productions (the only kind we get nowadays) as well as the very strange Syberberg film (as if the opera were not strange enough already). I would love to have seen Wieland Wagner's famous production, with its austerely beautiful sets, during several years of which Martha Modl was a fixture as Kundry. I'd also love to see the opera filmed with an effort to give us a closeup view of the complexities and subtleties of the characters and a visual equivalent of the sublime score, which today could involve the imaginative use of computer-generated images. But as with all of Wagner's works, the score is almost miraculously evocative of its own peculiar world, and capable of generating vivid visual images in those of us whose brains work that way. Immersed in music that seems part of some surreal parallel universe, I don't long to be sitting in a theater.
> 
> Conrad Osborne remarked long ago that if _Die Meistersinger_ is the Wagner opera for non-Wagnerites, _Parsifal_ may be the Wagner opera for Wagnerites only. Evidently I'm among the latter, as the music had me transfixed from the very first time I heard it, and I don't find a single measure of it dull. But it does let us know from the first notes of the prelude that it isn't a work for casual or easy listening; I can't imagine, now that I'm old and past my youthful fanaticisms, listening to it often. However, I do get pleasure from reading comments here by younger folk devouring recording after recording and discovering the work's wonders.


Parsifal is my second favourite Wagner opera after the Ring (if that can be counted as a single opera). I've seen it performed four times and the three I saw in Germany all were revelatory experiences. Like the Ring, if conducted well, I get a lot out of a performance even with less than superb singers.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Parsifal is my second favourite Wagner opera after the Ring (if that can be counted as a single opera). I've seen it performed four times and the three I saw in Germany all were revelatory experiences. Like the Ring, if conducted well, I get a lot out of a performance even with less than superb singers.
> 
> N.


I'm curious. Do you also enjoy listening to recordings of Parsifal or is it, like me, best as live theater? I wish you could have seen the powerful performance they did here to open our new opera house.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'm curious. Do you also enjoy listening to recordings of Parsifal or is it, like me, best as live theater? I wish you could have seen the powerful performance they did here to open our new opera house.


Controversially I like both. I'm fussy with conductors when it comes to this opera. I'll listen to a recording with great pleasure as long as it's one of Kna's or the Barenboim. However, I don't find it so spiritually transformational when only watching/listening at home.

I have seen one superlative performance in Berlin and two very good ones in Bayreuth and Munich. Maybe it is just my experience, but only in Germany is it given the importance and reverence needed to make it more than just a theatrical lyrical work.

N.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

The Conte, your 12:45 post - Very thoughtful, and I like the delineation between tech and vocal expressionism, a la Meier, Modl and the redoubtable M Callas. I and others should investigate what Waltraud Meier has achieved, surely ... but, OOPS, I should've mentioned another Kundry from the illustrious past. I have RCA Victrola VIC-1681 - Flagstad/Melchior in Wagnerian duets. Side 1 is fine enough (Tristan & Lohengrin), but side TWO has the entire Act 2/Parsifal duet, with Kirsten & Lauritz - 33 minutes worth. As one can imagine, both of these singers are "ne plus ultra" in many of their roles, over the decades, and this concentrated excerpt is one of their BEST examples. Thanks to you and others, for a fine discussion!


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Seattleoperafan - Thanks for mentioning LIVE performances! ... but have you ever seen or listened-to a Parsifal that could approach the Dane - Melchior? Just wondered ...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

89Koechel said:


> The Conte, your 12:45 post - Very thoughtful, and I like the delineation between tech and vocal expressionism, a la Meier, Modl and the redoubtable M Callas. I and others should investigate what Waltraud Meier has achieved, surely ... but, OOPS, I should've mentioned another Kundry from the illustrious past. I have RCA Victrola VIC-1681 - Flagstad/Melchior in Wagnerian duets. Side 1 is fine enough (Tristan & Lohengrin), but side TWO has the entire Act 2/Parsifal duet, with Kirsten & Lauritz - 33 minutes worth. As one can imagine, both of these singers are "ne plus ultra" in many of their roles, over the decades, and this concentrated excerpt is one of their BEST examples. Thanks to you and others, for a fine discussion!


Melchior is incomparable in that, beaten only by himself in a live recording.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Excellent, Woodduck ... and, as they used to say ... "there'll never be another", in this case, the Dane, himself. NO one, esp. in Wagner, could match his ebullience, his ease of encompassing the Heldentenor RANGE up-and-down, the true GRIP on true (but never, false) dramatics, as expressed in overt and/or subtle ways ... all "rolled-into-one". Simply one of a kind, and unmatchable.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Seattleoperafan - Thanks for mentioning LIVE performances! ... but have you ever seen or listened-to a Parsifal that could approach the Dane - Melchior? Just wondered ...


Everybody in the cast in Seattle was first rate. The tenor had the goods and was handsome. I can't imagine anyone approaching Melchior in the role. Flagstad sounded good but she isn't complex enough for kundry.\


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Thanks, Seattleoperafan, for that HONEST reply, about a recent Seattle performance. ... Thanks, also, for being SANGUINE about those two people, from the North Country - Melchior & Flagstad. Melchior, undoubtedly, will always be almost-unmatched, but I respect your ... and other ... opinions about Ms. Flagstad ... even "complex enough". There's always a tonal PURITY, up and down the scale, from Flagstad, at her best ... and her BEST lasted very long ... as did the BEST, of course, of "the lion"/Melchior. Would you, or Woodduck say that Meier, or Christa Ludwig ... or others did "better" at Kundry, considering your mention of "complex enough"? It's such a DEMANDING role, so I would value your or others' opinions. Thanks!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

89Koechel said:


> Thanks, Seattleoperafan, for that HONEST reply, about a recent Seattle performance. ... Thanks, also, for being SANGUINE about those two people, from the North Country - Melchior & Flagstad. Melchior, undoubtedly, will always be almost-unmatched, but I respect your ... and other ... opinions about Ms. Flagstad ... even "complex enough". There's always a tonal PURITY, up and down the scale, from Flagstad, at her best ... and her BEST lasted very long ... as did the BEST, of course, of "the lion"/Melchior. Would you, or Woodduck say that Meier, or Christa Ludwig ... or others did "better" at Kundry, considering your mention of "complex enough"? It's such a DEMANDING role, so I would value your or others' opinions. Thanks!


I agree with Seattleoperafan that Kundry requires a degree of subtlety and intensity - and, frankly, craziness - that didn't come naturally to Flagstad, whose vocal personality tends to suggest the healthy Norwegian mother who could sit peacefully knitting scarves and mittens when she wasn't onstage. The outpouring of her glorious voice was almost too easy (which is undoubtedly a reason for her vocal longevity); it worked for Isolde and Brunnhilde, but Kundry needs more tension in the sound. Modl was at the opposite extreme - a sound relentlessly tense, as if her vocal chords were taut rubber bands through which air had to be forced under pressure - but a number of singers have maneged the paradoxical mix of anguish and sensuality that constitute Kundry's dual nature. On recordings, my favorites are Christa Ludwig, a paragon in Wagner's dramatic mezzo roles, and Irene Dalis, an underrecorded singer whose Kundry is much like Modl's but better sung.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

I just listened to the celebrated Kubelik's Parsifal and was very pleased with Yvonne Minton. She is almost an ideal Kundry for me at the moment.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Marjorie Lawrence and Maria Callas(in Italian) seem to me the most wholesome vocally and dramatically.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Marjorie Lawrence and Maria Callas(in Italian) seem to me the most wholesome vocally and dramatically.


I haven't heard Lawrence's Kundry (and I'm a fan of Lawrence). Does a complete live performance exist or only excerpts?

N.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

The Conte said:


> I haven't heard Lawrence's Kundry (and I'm a fan of Lawrence). Does a complete live performance exist or only excerpts?
> 
> N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Shaafee Shameem said:


>


Oh idiot! (Me not you.) Of course I knew about this one!

N.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

The Conte said:


> Oh idiot! (Me not you.) Of course I knew about this one!
> 
> N.


What do you think of Lawrence's performance then?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> What do you think of Lawrence's performance then?


Very good, although not quite up there with Modl, Ludwig or Meier.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

How about Regine Crespin?


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> How about Regine Crespin?


I have a set of Knapperbusch with Crespin. Not impressed at all. I find her cold and detached.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> What do you think of Lawrence's performance then?


She is awesome. Vocally much better than Modl, and as a soprano, she had fewer troubles with high notes than Ludwig. Maison is a very good Parsifal as well. Too bad the recording quality is horrible.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

OffPitchNeb said:


> She is awesome. Vocally much better than Modl, and as a soprano, she had fewer troubles with high notes than Ludwig. Maison is a very good Parsifal as well. Too bad the recording quality is horrible.


I agree. Ludwig's high notes are very good though, and some believe that she was truly a soprano and not a mezzo, a reasonable opinion given the success she had with a number of soprano roles! I find Lawrence more dramatic than Ludwig and even Mödl! She has a stronger command over dynamics and portamento, and like Callas conveys the two distinct personalities of Kundry better than everyone else, including Mödl, who tends to lean more towards the demented creature of Act 1 and 3.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I wonder what Goerke makes of the role? She has the right voice for it. She is not a bad actress either. I loved Marilyn Zschau as Elektra and she could have handled the acting and vocal challenges well. Bruinhilde is her only Wagner role I know of.


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