# Which composer first used a slow introduction?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm sure none of Haydn's nor Mozart's piano sonatas have introductions, Beethoven does with obviously the famous one starting the Pathetique sonata. But I'm sure Clementi wrote a clutch of piano sonatas with intros before Beethoven with probably the best known being that introduction to his Op.50 No.3 in G minor. Of the top of my head I can think of about 6-7 more sonatas Clementi started with a slow intro. 

I may be completely wrong as intros could well have began in the baroque period. Straight off I'm thinking of Tartini's the Devil's Trill sonata. Maybe need to re-listen.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

One 17th century example I can remember is Corelli's concerti grossi op. 6 (1680s), I believe at least a couple of those start with an "Adagio e Allegro" movements, or something like that. You could also argue that any French overture is essentially a fast piece of music with a slow introduction, in which case there are hundreds of examples. But really, during the early Baroque so many people did multi-sectional pieces with different tempi for different sections, I'm sure most composers were well aware of how effective a slow movement can be when followed by a fast one.

There are tons of examples from the Classical period before Clementi & Beethoven. I'm fairly sure CPE Bach did a slow introduction in at least one of the legendary Wq. 43 concertos (from the early 1770s), and maybe Mozart didn't do slow introductions in piano sonatas, but the famous Dissonance quartet (1785) certainly has one, as does the K593 string quintet (1790), and I'm sure many other pieces. I remember reading that Joseph Anton Steffan (the most important piano concerto composer before Mozart) regularly used slow introductions for his piano concertos. Oh, and I've been listening to some Michael Haydn recently, and his Symphony No. 27 in B-flat major starts with an extended Grave followed by an Allegro con spirito... that's from the 1780s too, I think.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

My guess is that it's a thing which took off in the first half of the 17th century, it's quite common in Lawes and Gibbons for example, I could find examples if you want. I don't remember examples from earlier composers like Tye or Tallis.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> My guess is that it's a thing which took off in the first half of the 17th century, it's quite common in Lawes and Gibbons for example, I could find examples if you want. I don't remember examples from earlier composers like Tye or Tallis.


Wouldn't Lawes and Gibbons pieces contain many different sections in different tempi? If there are such that just contain a slow and then a fast section, I'd be interested in knowing which those are.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Lawes maybe, I was thinking of setts which start off with a pavan, though I'm not sure whether these setts were ordered by the composer or whether they're post facto creations like Couperin's Orders. But with Gibbons I was thinking of some of the fantasia's which Phantasm play -- Fantasia VI for example (which I think is MB 26)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

beetzart said:


> I'm sure none of Haydn's nor Mozart's piano sonatas have introductions,


It happens in late Haydn symphonies I think, and in Mozart quartets too.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> There are tons of examples from the Classical period before Clementi & Beethoven. I'm fairly sure CPE Bach did a slow introduction in at least one of the legendary Wq. 43 concertos (from the early 1770s), and maybe Mozart didn't do slow introductions in piano sonatas, but the famous Dissonance quartet (1785) certainly has one, as does the K593 string quintet (1790), and I'm sure many other pieces. I remember reading that Joseph Anton Steffan (the most important piano concerto composer before Mozart) regularly used slow introductions for his piano concertos. Oh, and I've been listening to some Michael Haydn recently, and his Symphony No. 27 in B-flat major starts with an extended Grave followed by an Allegro con spirito... that's from the 1780s too, I think.


For completeness I'll point out that although I'm sure he didn't originate the concept, J. Haydn was doing slow introductions back in the early 1760s. Symphony 6, "Le Matin," for instance, from 1761, opens with a slow introduction, and there are a few others from that decade, though of course he wasn't doing it nearly as commonly (or, say, obsessively) as he was by the time he got to the London Symphonies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I’m going to guess that the classical period slow introduction grew out of the baroque French overture, which normally starts with a slow section, usually in a heavily dotted rhythm, followed by a much faster and longer section, sometimes fugal. The slow section is often repeated at the end.

Beethoven looked all the way back to this form in his Pathetique sonata, and again in the first movement of his very last sonata, the Op. 111. Andras Schiff makes this point in his analyses of both sonatas.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

KenOC said:


> I'm going to guess that the classical period slow introduction grew out of the baroque French overture, which normally starts with a slow section, usually in a heavily dotted rhythm, followed by a much faster and longer section, sometimes fugal. The slow section is often repeated at the end.


Yes, good point. I shall make some research about it at some point soon.



KenOC said:


> Beethoven looked all the back to this form in his Pathetique sonata, and again in the first movement of his very last sonata, the Op. 111. Andras Schiff makes this point in his analyses of both sonatas.


There is only a "problem" when mentioning the Pathetique Sonata: the "introduction" is not the same kind of introduction one can find in Op.111

In the Pathetique (Op.13) we have the thematic exposition since the very first bar, and the same theme appears clearly all along the work (I mean including the other 2 movements) and it is modulated at bar 133, so despite of the "contrast" of these sections I can't call it "introduction" simple because of its importance to the whole work.
The main problem in Schiff analyses (same with several analyses made by others) is they are based in traditions which are full of "accepted mistakes" when you check carefully the score.

This made me go in the direction of the "Scientific System of Interpretation", if you would like to check, please take some minutes and listen this Sonata reading being explained here:
http://opusdissonus.com.br/master-class_001_cimirro-beethoven-op13.mp3
I'm pretty sure this will be a curious way to discover you are listening Beethoven differently from what is written on his score no matter who is the pianist...
The full recording of the Sonata Pathetique in this "new" interpretation is possible download/listen here (free):
http://opusdissonus.com.br/CIMIRRO_studio-master-class_001.htm

So Shiff's opinion in this case is not accurate as expected by most of listeners.

All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> It happens in late Haydn symphonies I think, and in Mozart quartets too.


and in Mozart's Linz symphony, Prague.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

stomanek said:


> and in Mozart's Linz symphony, Prague.


And also symphony 39, a favorite of mine............


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Slow introductions come up pretty often in German early Baroque cantatas. All but one of the cantatas on this album, a favorite of mine, have a slow intro: https://www.amazon.com/German-Cantatas-Before-Herreweghe-Collegium/dp/B0000509J8

There are other examples from around the same time I can't immediately think of.

Really almost as soon as there were multi-movement works with contrasting tempos, there were some slow introductions sometimes. What's interesting is the dominance of fast-slow-fast...


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