# A Critique



## Captainnumber36

Picking up where Jamie left off, but coming from a different approach, I ask the mods and others on this forum why it is ok for critiques to be filled with crude and demeaning language and when people like Jaimie use that language back on the oppressors, action by the mods is taken against him only and none against the antagonists.

In my opinion, it was not right of Jaimie to use the language he did, but why was only he punished and not the oppressors?

Mods, we should enforce respectful critiques on this forum and I'm taking a respectful stand for it.

Please let me know your thoughts, we can make this community better.

Tact is important, very important. 

Feelings are real and fragile, especially when connected to something as personal as art.


I want to state I'm not asking for rainbows and sprinkles, just respect and tact when making a critique. With this, I hope the mods will begin taking action against rude and obnoxious posts.

Thank you,
Captain.

:tiphat:


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

Probably because he was being melodramatic and immature. At this point, why fan a dead flame?

L E T B E


----------



## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Probably because he was being melodramatic and immature. At this point, why fan a dead flame?
> 
> L E T B E


But so were the ones antagonizing him...he didn't have to stoop to their level, but we as a community can rise above oppression of this kind.


----------



## Captainnumber36

And let's face it, Jaimie's words reflect everything an oppressed person in this context feels like saying but most of us keep our mouths shut.

We need to keep unnecessary negativity off this forum.


----------



## Bulldog

Punishment seems to be a big thing on this board. TC is doing very well and I think it would be even better if members thought less frequently about justice and punishment.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> Punishment seems to be a big thing on this board. TC is doing very well and I think it would be even better if members thought less frequently about justice and punishment.


1. Are you a composer?
2. Do you post your music to this forum?
3. Have you ever felt hostility against you from oppressors on this forum?

If no to any of the above, I don't think you can empathize with my efforts here.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> Punishment seems to be a big thing on this board. TC is doing very well and I think it would be even better if members thought less frequently about justice and punishment.


But TC is punishing people, and I feel, the wrong people.

It's time for a change!


----------



## ROBOT

I think criticism is very valuable， I also think earlier there was some criticism just any person can write， so with that criticism， what was the point？ We should be very gentle all the time， especially because sometimes being harsh could feel very sophisticated when being that way was actually very crude and insolent。


----------



## Vasks

I really do not see the point of this thread from the viewpoint of us TC posters. Your concerns, Capt., should be directly expressed to the TC Management. They set the rules, we follow those rules. If they wish to change them to match most or all of your concerns so be it. But if they did, it would mean that they would have to monitor and parse everybody's words to decide what is acceptable and what's not. 

Oppressors? Really?


----------



## dzc4627

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. Are you a composer?
> 2. Do you post your music to this forum?
> 3. Have you ever felt hostility against you from oppressors on this forum?
> 
> If no to any of the above, I don't think you can empathize with my efforts here.


Captain, as someone who has been here for quite a while longer than you, I've seen what you and a few others have turned this subforum into. That would be a place of feuding and melodrama. Please stop complaining about people who don't sugarcoat the fact that they don't like your music, or Jamie's music. I'm so tired of this constant whining, and I am sure I am not alone in that.

All of that which I just listed is annoying but temporarily tolerable. However, you will _not_ waltz around with your buckets of tact and suggest we start some sort of mass censorship campaign. For Heaven's sake I suggest you drop this immediately and get some thicker skin.


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. Are you a composer?
> 2. Do you post your music to this forum?
> 3. Have you ever felt hostility against you from oppressors on this forum?
> 
> If no to any of the above, I don't think you can empathize with my efforts here.


You created a thread that is available to all members of our community. With that in mind, I consider your three questions irrelevant. Also, your description of some members being oppressive is not accurate; it's just a feeling you have.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> You created a thread that is available to all members of our community. With that in mind, I consider your three questions irrelevant. Also, your description of some members being oppressive is not accurate; it's just a feeling you have.


It is certainly accurate. I recall DZC mentions in my thread highlighting my take on Bach "this sounds like a top ten sad piano music on youtube". He could have just said, I find this to be cliche sad piano music and don't much care for it. One is oppressive the other is tactful.

Mods are punishing the wrong people, and I will defend that.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> You created a thread that is available to all members of our community. With that in mind, I consider your three questions irrelevant. Also, your description of some members being oppressive is not accurate; it's just a feeling you have.


I think the questions are very relevant, you don't know what it feels like to have your art put down, viciously, and without respect and tact.

It is unprofessional and uneeded.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Vasks said:


> I really do not see the point of this thread from the viewpoint of us TC posters. Your concerns, Capt., should be directly expressed to the TC Management. They set the rules, we follow those rules. If they wish to change them to match most or all of your concerns so be it. But if they did, it would mean that they would have to monitor and parse everybody's words to decide what is acceptable and what's not.
> 
> Oppressors? Really?


They don't have to monitor it, we posters can flag or report a post and they can decide what action to take. That way we take the job on ourselves and away from the mods.


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Captain, you are asking for special protections for people posting their music publicly. In the same way people can say why they loathe music by Mozart and Haydn, so too can they say why they loathe the music posted here and there is no principle to say why that shouldn't be the case.

I am also really curious exactly what was oppressed and by whom. Since this is a forum, and there don't appear to be any threats here, oppression doesn't seem possible.

I simply cannot understand why you want it to be against the rules to be honest, and to frame your reaction honestly.


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> But TC is punishing people, and I feel, the wrong people.
> 
> It's time for a change!


What the heck. Let's punish everybody! Seriously, this punishment stuff is getting absurd. If I got an infraction point, I'd consider it a heads-up. If I was banned, I'd move on and hopefully have learned a little. The person you refer to as Jamie was highly insulting and clearly looking for trouble. I have no idea if he received any infraction points; don't really care. My point is that all TC members are responsible for taking care of themselves; any member who is doing a poor job of it shouldn't be surprised to see the infractions pile up.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Jacob Brooks said:


> Captain, you are asking for special protections for people posting their music publicly. In the same way people can say why they loathe music by Mozart and Haydn, so too can they say why they loathe the music posted here and there is no principle to say why that shouldn't be the case.
> 
> I am also really curious exactly what was oppressed and by whom. Since this is a forum, and there don't appear to be any threats here, oppression doesn't seem possible.
> 
> I simply cannot understand why you want it to be against the rules to be honest, and to frame your reaction honestly.


I'm asking people to mind their manners, even when discussing the greats. This applies to all sections of TC, not just this sub-forum.

I'm not sure if we can already report a post or not, but if not, the mods could instill that service and decide what action to take.


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> They don't have to monitor it, we posters can flag or report a post and they can decide what action to take. That way we take the job on ourselves and away from the mods.


If you report a post, you are giving the mods another assignment, one that yields no payment.


----------



## musicrom

Agree that tact is something that I greatly appreciate in a critic. Disagree that we need to punish those that don't use tact in their critiques (unless they're clearly being rude and non-constructive, using ad-hominems, etc).


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Bulldog said:


> If you report a post, you are giving the mods another assignment, one that yields no payment.


But they are not paid anyway.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> If you report a post, you are giving the mods another assignment, one that yields no payment.


I think it's worth it to keep the community positive and mindful.


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm asking people to mind their manners, even when discussing the greats. This applies to all sections of TC, not just this sub-forum.
> 
> I'm not sure if we can already report a post or not, but if not, the mods could instill that service and decide what action to take.


But you clearly aren't just asking people to mind their manners. You are saying if people don't mind their manners their posts should be deleted, they should get a strike, get banned etc. (you want it to be justifiably reportable, IE against the rules.)

Why exactly should adults not be allowed to give their honest reaction, on a public forum?


----------



## Captainnumber36

musicrom said:


> Agree that tact is something that I greatly appreciate in a critic. Disagree that we need to punish those that don't use tact in their critiques (unless they're clearly being rude and non-constructive, using ad-hominems, etc).


They are already punishing people, but the wrong people. They need to start handing out infractions to reported posts they deem unnecessarily negative.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Jacob Brooks said:


> But you clearly aren't just asking people to mind their manners. You are saying if people don't mind their manners their posts should be deleted, they should get a strike, get banned etc. (you want it to be justifiably reportable, IE against the rules.)
> 
> Why exactly should adults not be allowed to give their honest reaction, on a public forum?


Honesty can be articulated kindly. Their is no need for cyber bullying, which is occurring on this forum (and all forums I've been on, but this one means a lot to me and I think we care about this issue more than others).


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Captainnumber36 said:


> Honesty can be articulated kindly. Their is no need for cyber bullying, which is occurring on this forum (and all forums I've been on, but this one means a lot to me and I think we care about this issue more than others).


Bully: use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> They are already punishing people, but the wrong people. They need to start handing out infractions to reported posts they deem unnecessarily negative.


You're on quite a roll about infractions and punishment. Why not switch to giving us more clips of your music-making?


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think it's worth it to keep the community positive and mindful.


Positive? Reporting other members to the mods, handing out infractions, and punishing folks doesn't sound very positive from my corner of the world.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> You're on quite a roll about infractions and punishment. Why not switch to giving us more clips of your music-making?


Oppressor style response: Gosh, if you cared to even check the main page, maybe you'd see a post of music by me. Use your eyes much?

Tactful response: I am continuing to post my music, but care about this issue very much so will continue to fight for it and hope my voice is heard. If you look on the main page, you will see I have posted a new video of my original music for your ears to die a listen to. I hope you enjoy it!

Which one do you like better?


----------



## Bettina

Jacob Brooks said:


> Captain, you are asking for special protections for people posting their music publicly.* In the same way people can say why they loathe music by Mozart and Haydn, so too can they say why they loathe the music posted here and there is no principle to say why that shouldn't be the case.*
> 
> I am also really curious exactly what was oppressed and by whom. Since this is a forum, and there don't appear to be any threats here, oppression doesn't seem possible.
> 
> I simply cannot understand why you want it to be against the rules to be honest, and to frame your reaction honestly.


My position on this issue is similar to Captainnumber36 - I believe that honest critiques are fine, but they should be presented tactfully and constructively, without any sarcasm. There's a significant difference between talking _to _a composer, and talking _about _a composer. If we bash Mozart, he's not around to feel bad about it. But if we bash someone who has actually asked for our opinion (particularly an amateur/beginning composer who hasn't established himself yet), then that could make the person feel unnecessarily hurt and discouraged. It's definitely possible to deliver an honest assessment of a work without hurting someone's feelings, as long as the wording is tactful and encouraging.


----------



## dzc4627

Captainnumber36 said:


> Honesty can be articulated kindly. Their is no need for cyber bullying, which is occurring on this forum (and all forums I've been on, but this one means a lot to me and I think we care about this issue more than others).


Maybe this forum isn't for you. We like to have fun here.

"What a good thing this isn't music." Rossini on Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique

"Rossini would have been a great composer if his teacher had spanked him enough on the backside." Beethoven on Rossini

"All Bach's last movements are like the running of a sewing machine." Bax on Bach

:tiphat:

There is no cyberbullying here, just criticism that you don't like.


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> It is certainly accurate. I recall DZC mentions in my thread highlighting my take on Bach "this sounds like a top ten sad piano music on youtube". He could have just said, I find this to be cliche sad piano music and don't much care for it. One is oppressive the other is tactful.


He did say "top ten". I guess you didn't pay much attention to that one.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bulldog said:


> Positive? Reporting other members to the mods, handing out infractions, and punishing folks doesn't sound very positive from my corner of the world.


Reporting negative posts that deserve action to keep the forum a positive community sounds quite positive to me. There are really on a few offenders here, the majority of people on this forum and very decent, tactful people.


----------



## Bettina

dzc4627 said:


> Maybe this forum isn't for you. We like to have fun here.
> 
> "What a good thing this isn't music." Rossini *on *Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique
> 
> "Rossini would have been a great composer if his teacher had spanked him enough on the backside." Beethoven *on *Rossini
> 
> "All Bach's last movements are like the running of a sewing machine." Bax *on *Bach
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> There is no cyberbullying here, just criticism that you don't like.


"On" is the keyword there. They didn't say those things _to _the composers directly, and in one of those cases (Bax on Bach) the recipient of the criticism was dead.


----------



## dzc4627

Captainnumber36 said:


> Oppressor style response: Gosh, if you cared to even check the main page, maybe you'd see a post of music by me. Use your eyes much?
> 
> Tactful response: I am continuing to post my music, but care about this issue very much so will continue to fight for it and hope my voice is heard. If you look on the main page, you will see I have posted a new video of my original music for your ears to die a listen to. I hope you enjoy it!
> 
> Which one do you like better?


The second looks like you have a word minimum to fill up. Does tact just mean fluffy flattery?


----------



## Bulldog

Captainnumber36 said:


> Oppressor style response: Gosh, if you cared to even check the main page, maybe you'd see a post of music by me. Use your eyes much?


As it happens, my sight improves every year. Thanks for the concern.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Bettina said:


> "On" is the keyword there. They didn't say those things _to _the composers directly, and in one of those cases (Bax on Bach) the recipient of the criticism was dead.


While I do agree with this, we can even be tactful in our wording of the greats for people have strong emotional attachments to their favorites.

As you said, there is a difference between honestly and sarcasm.

We should move towards tactful honesty.

We can still joke around like "that other thread", but there is a difference when it's harmless fun and real unkindness.


----------



## dzc4627

Bettina said:


> "On" is the keyword there. They didn't say those things _to _the composers directly, and in one of those cases (Bax on Bach) the recipient of the criticism was dead.


If people want to hear good things about their music in this subforum they should write good music, plain and simple. Is it necessary to be mean in critiquing? No, but a ton of what captn is complaining about isn't mean.


----------



## Captainnumber36

dzc4627 said:


> The second looks like you have a word minimum to fill up. Does tact just mean fluffy flattery?


The word minimum comment is silly, you can use as much or as little wording as you want. Tact simply means constructive criticism.


----------



## Captainnumber36

dzc4627 said:


> If people want to hear good things about their music in this subforum they should write good music, plain and simple. Is it necessary to be mean in critiquing? No, but a ton of what captn is complaining about isn't mean.


If there is a report system instilled for the mods to review, it would be their discretion as to what is mean or not.


----------



## dzc4627

Captainnumber36 said:


> If there is a report system instilled for the mods to review, it would be their discretion as to what is mean or not.


sounds great. the TalkClassical Composition Forum Tact-Police TM

not gonna happen bucko


----------



## Captainnumber36

dzc4627 said:


> sounds great, TalkClassical Composition Forum Tact-Police TM
> 
> not gonna happen bucko


You're great at antagonizing people and putting them on the defense, such as Jaimie, and getting them banned.


----------



## Captainnumber36

dzc4627 said:


> sounds great, TalkClassical Composition Forum Tact-Police TM
> 
> not gonna happen bucko


And I said, this would apply to all sections of the forum, not just the composer section.


----------



## Daniel Atkinson

If opinions aren't welcome, then post what you're going to post and lock the thread straight away? simple


----------



## Ziggabea

dzc4627 said:


> If people want to hear good things about their music in this subforum they should write good music, plain and simple. Is it necessary to be mean in critiquing? No, but a ton of what captn is complaining about isn't mean.


What is good music?


----------



## dzc4627

Ziggabea said:


> What is good music?


Music that is good


----------



## Ziggabea

dzc4627 said:


> Music that is good


So you don't even know, yet you go around preaching it?


----------



## Pugg

dzc4627 said:


> Music that is good


By your standards or in general?


----------



## Captainnumber36

The main problem with many of the same offenders is that they think they know what is objectively good and bad in music when it is the most subjective thing the world.

Such persons go around condemning other composers because they don't meet their idea of what is certainly good in music.

That is what is at the heart of the offenders, and this issue.


----------



## KenOC

I think we need heavy penalties for members who tell others how they can and can't post. Suggest instead they contact the mods to suggest how to change the TOS, which is what would be required.


----------



## dzc4627

Pugg said:


> By your standards or in general?


by standards of a balance of complexity and simplicity. beauty, emotional weight, cleverness, form, structure, harmonious, etc.


----------



## Captainnumber36

KenOC said:


> I think we need heavy penalties for members who tell others how they can and can't post. Suggest instead they contact the mods to suggest how to change the TOS, which is what would be required.


Really Ken? I'm surprised by this response from you. I agree I should contact the mods, but I didn't know how to, so I made a thread to get their attention, and bring this issue to the forefront of our TC consciousness. It's a problem for it's getting great posters banned.


----------



## KenOC

In any post from a mod, simply click their username and you can PM them. Not difficult!


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Captainnumber36 said:


> Really Ken? I'm surprised by this response from you. I agree I should contact the mods, but I didn't know how to, so I made a thread to get their attention, and bring this issue to the forefront of our TC consciousness. It's a problem for it's getting great posters banned.


You continually act as though somebody getting banned for an inappropriate outburst is anyone's responsibility but their own. Somebody breaks the established rules of the forum, they get punished. It is that simple. Nobody forced anyone to post anything.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Jacob Brooks said:


> You continually act as though somebody getting banned for an inappropriate outburst is anyone's responsibility but their own. Somebody breaks the established rules of the forum, they get punished. It is that simple. Nobody forced anyone to post anything.


It's ok, I've found a new method. Nothing needs to happen.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Jacob Brooks said:


> You continually act as though somebody getting banned for an inappropriate outburst is anyone's responsibility but their own. Somebody breaks the established rules of the forum, they get punished. It is that simple. Nobody forced anyone to post anything.


Ya, I guess we aren't all humans whose emotions are effected by others and emotions don't really effect our actions, and people don't really have varying levels of emotional control.

Cool beans.


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Captainnumber36 said:


> Ya, I guess we aren't all humans whose emotions are effected by others and emotions don't really effect our actions, and people don't really have varying levels of emotional control.
> 
> Cool beans.


The moment you give people a pass for their actions because of their emotions is the moment you deny them moral agency, the foundation to law operating on an individual basis. Yes, people have emotional responses to what they read on here. But ALSO yes, they are in complete control of what they write and post on here as well. Give up agency, then your whole system acts as though people can't do anything for their own. It, in simple terms, is not a proper way to live.

I get what you are saying. I know DZC, I've shown him my piano improvisations which, although they have a lot more intricate aspects than your music, has aspects in line with new age music. And he blasts me hard for it. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree. I'd hate more than anything though for him to lie to me and say something is good when his best evaluation is that it isn't. This is the way to improvement.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Jacob Brooks said:


> The moment you give people a pass for their actions because of their emotions is the moment you deny them moral agency, the foundation to law operating on an individual basis. Yes, people have emotional responses to what they read on here. But ALSO yes, they are in complete control of what they write and post on here as well. Give up agency, then your whole system acts as though people can't do anything for their own. It, in simple terms, is not a proper way to live.
> 
> I get what you are saying. I know DZC, I've shown him my piano improvisations which, although they have a lot more intricate aspects than your music, has aspects in line with new age music. And he blasts me hard for it. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree. I'd hate more than anything though for him to lie to me and say something is good when his best evaluation is that it isn't. This is the way to improvement.


You don't have to be disingenuous, but you don't have to be crude either.


----------



## musicrom

In my history of posting my own works here, I've gotten used to tough criticism. I personally think this is a very good thing and has helped me to grow, learning what areas I need to focus on, and what I did wrong. I do not remember, however, any comments that seemed disrespectful though. I have seen a few lately on others' works, and this is unfortunate. 

What bothers me is how simple it is to show respect, and when people neglect to do so (perhaps unintentionally). If you don't like my piece, feel free to be tough, tell me what's wrong with it. But at the end, it would be nice to see either 1) some sort of compliment or encouragement, or 2) a question about my reasoning, if you found no redeemable qualities. If you do this, it is unlikely that anybody would be deeply offended, and likely their next piece will be better. Respect = win/win. No need for controversy and bans.

(That said, as a composer, one needs to understand that critics will be harsh. If someone isn't being polite, try to see where they're coming from and if there might indeed be some truth in their words that could help you, or not. If a comment just says "YOUR MUSIC SUCKS!" please ignore it.)


----------



## Captainnumber36

musicrom said:


> In my history of posting my own works here, I've gotten used to tough criticism. I personally think this is a very good thing and has helped me to grow, learning what areas I need to focus on, and what I did wrong. I do not remember, however, any comments that seemed disrespectful though. I have seen a few lately on others' works, and this is unfortunate.
> 
> What bothers me is how simple it is to show respect, and when people neglect to do so. If you don't like my piece, feel free to be tough, tell me what's wrong with it. But at the end, it would be nice to see either 1) some sort of compliment or encouragement, or 2) a question about my reasoning, if you found no redeemable qualities. If you do this, it is unlikely that anybody would be deeply offended, and likely their next piece will be better. Respect = win/win. No need for controversy and bans.
> 
> (That said, as a composer, one needs to understand that critics will be harsh. If someone isn't being polite, try to see where they're coming from and if there might indeed be some truth in their words that could help you, or not. If a comment just says "YOUR MUSIC SUCKS!" please ignore it.)


Very wise words, and I agree that is a fantastic method and I do do that. Even though I dislike DZC's style, I always look at the truth of what he is saying.

I thought I would attempt to raise awareness of this issue since our good friend Jaimie has been banned now.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Looks like the triangle button on the bottom left with an exclamation mark in it is for reporting posts to the mods!!!


----------



## Portamento

If I had my way, Jamie and dzc would both be banned right now. Jamie for turning this board into a courthouse and pretending that he hadn't; dzc for acting like the judge when he was a mere court reporter.


----------



## Jacob Brooks

Portamento said:


> If I had my way, Jamie and dzc would both be banned right now. Jamie for turning this board into a courthouse and pretending that he hadn't; dzc for acting like the judge when he was a mere court reporter.


More like a court jester!


----------



## MarkMcD

I read Jamie's posts that lead to this one and I have to say that whilst DZC was in no way tactful in his initial response to Jamie, he was neither crude (in my understanding of the word) nor was he directly insulting Jamie's person. I do believe the music was the focus of the initial responses. Jamie was the one who started the tirade of crude and personal "defences".

In essence, what you are looking for is censorship, and I really don't want to see that happening on any public forum. 

It's just life, you will always come up against people that are just not tactful, and even sarcastic and rude at times, but if you sink to that same level in response, then are you really any better than them? And, I have to say that Jamie did jump off that particular platform from a great height.

It is never nice to have someone trash your work, whether it's done with a sledge hammer or a velvet glove, but we can never be in control of others responses to our work (which is ALWAYS of a deeply personal nature), but then if we are going to continue posting our work, in the hope that even just 1 person will give us something that we can value, then it is worth it, and as composers, artists, creators of any form of highly subjective material, we really do have to learn to take each critique with a pinch of salt and if it really is so bad that it makes your blood boil, then we have to remember that this is just one persons view point and do we really care anything for that person? If the answer is that we do not, then it's best to ignore that person in future, rise above the emotion generated by those comments, and think to yourself that "I really don't care what some anonymous face behind a computer screen, has to say about my work if they can't do it in a manner that will get the best from me", and move on. Otherwise, you are just creating more stress for yourself, and more fuel for the flames of the commentator.

Personally I try not to comment on work I don't like or see no merit at all in, and when I do comment, I always try to be as tactful as possible, that is just my style as a person, and I find that most people here are also very tactful. It is a shame that some folks are just not built that way, however, we ARE putting our work out into a public arena, and there are always risks when dealing with the general public, and this is just one of them.

Another point is that if Jamie had said "I'm sorry that you don't like my music DZC, can you tell me exactly what you mean so that I can try and make it better"? I'm fairly sure that he would have received a more measured and detailed response. As it was, he opted for the "attack is the best form of defence" route, and is now suffering the consequences. I can't say that I have personal experience as DZC has never commented on any of my work (hint hint), but I'm sure that the route that Jamie took, was not the best way to get anything useful out of him either.


----------



## Portamento

MarkMcD said:


> I read Jamie's posts that lead to this one and I have to say that whilst DZC was in no way tactful in his initial response to Jamie, he was neither crude (in my understanding of the word) nor was he directly insulting Jamie's person. I do believe the music was the focus of the initial responses. Jamie was the one who started the tirade of crude and personal "defences".
> 
> In essence, what you are looking for is censorship, and I really don't want to see that happening on any public forum.
> 
> It's just life, you will always come up against people that are just not tactful, and even sarcastic and rude at times, but if you sink to that same level in response, then are you really any better than them? And, I have to say that Jamie did jump off that particular platform from a great height.
> 
> It is never nice to have someone trash your work, whether it's done with a sledge hammer or a velvet glove, but we can never be in control of others responses to our work (which is ALWAYS of a deeply personal nature), but then if we are going to continue posting our work, in the hope that even just 1 person will give us something that we can value, then it is worth it, and as composers, artists, creators of any form of highly subjective material, we really do have to learn to take each critique with a pinch of salt and if it really is so bad that it makes your blood boil, then we have to remember that this is just one persons view point and do we really care anything for that person? If the answer is that we do not, then it's best to ignore that person in future, rise above the emotion generated by those comments, and think to yourself that "I really don't care what some anonymous face behind a computer screen, has to say about my work if they can't do it in a manner that will get the best from me", and move on. Otherwise, you are just creating more stress for yourself, and more fuel for the flames of the commentator.
> 
> Personally I try not to comment on work I don't like or see no merit at all in, and when I do comment, I always try to be as tactful as possible, that is just my style as a person, and I find that most people here are also very tactful. It is a shame that some folks are just not built that way, however, we ARE putting our work out into a public arena, and there are always risks when dealing with the general public, and this is just one of them.
> 
> Another point is that if Jamie had said "I'm sorry that you don't like my music DZC, can you tell me exactly what you mean so that I can try and make it better"? I'm fairly sure that he would have received a more measured and detailed response. As it was, he opted for the "attack is the best form of defence" route, and is now suffering the consequences. I can't say that I have personal experience as DZC has never commented on any of my work (hint hint), but I'm sure that the route that Jamie took, was not the best way to get anything useful out of him either.


Best post I've seen in a long time. :clap:


----------



## mmsbls

The majority of this thread died down awhile ago, but I wanted to say a few things.

First, I'm the first moderator to view this thread, and I just read through it now. We don't read every post or even every thread. If someone wants to draw our attention to something on TC, they should PM us, report the post, or start a thread in the Area 51. I read every thread in Area 51, and I assume most other moderators do as well. In theory this thread should have been started there since it really pertains to forum issues and not composed music by members.

People often complain that we only take actions against "one side" or that we don't punish people appropriately. Please remember that the only action you will ever see is when someone is banned (since it appears under their username in posts) or when we edit/delete posts. In general the membership will be unaware of PMs, warnings, and infractions we issue.

It's true that the Terms of Service ask members to be polite. Often members are not polite, but we do not immediately take action against them. We feel there should be some leeway; otherwise, we'd take action too often. The _Today's Composers_ area is for members to post music and others to respond. The responses can be positive or negative, and many composers seem to value the negative most since it helps them compose better. Sure, members can try to couch their criticisms in wording that _may be_ less hurtful, but that is not required. Blunt, direct criticism in this area should be expected.


----------



## Captainnumber36

mmsbls said:


> The majority of this thread died down awhile ago, but I wanted to say a few things.
> 
> First, I'm the first moderator to view this thread, and I just read through it now. We don't read every post or even every thread. If someone wants to draw our attention to something on TC, they should PM us, report the post, or start a thread in the Area 51. I read every thread in Area 51, and I assume most other moderators do as well. In theory this thread should have been started there since it really pertains to forum issues and not composed music by members.
> 
> People often complain that we only take actions against "one side" or that we don't punish people appropriately. Please remember that the only action you will ever see is when someone is banned (since it appears under their username in posts) or when we edit/delete posts. In general the membership will be unaware of PMs, warnings, and infractions we issue.
> 
> It's true that the Terms of Service ask members to be polite. Often members are not polite, but we do not immediately take action against them. We feel there should be some leeway; otherwise, we'd take action too often. The _Today's Composers_ area is for members to post music and others to respond. The responses can be positive or negative, and many composers seem to value the negative most since it helps them compose better. Sure, members can try to couch their criticisms in wording that _may be_ less hurtful, but that is not required. Blunt, direct criticism in this area should be expected.


Thanks for taking time to consider my concerns and state your conclusion!


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

The way I see it, even as a new member, is that you shouldn't try and push a community to do x because you don't like how the community is... simply find one more to your liking, rather than try and impose thy will upon the other content members of the aforementioned community.


----------



## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> The way I see it, even as a new member, is that you shouldn't try and push a community to do x because you don't like how the community is... simply find one more to your liking, rather than try and impose thy will upon the other content members of the aforementioned community.


There is truth in that, but for the most part I love it here. I believe in standing up for change!


----------



## Bulldog

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> The way I see it, even as a new member, is that you shouldn't try and push a community to do x because you don't like how the community is... simply find one more to your liking, rather than try and impose thy will upon the other content members of the aforementioned community.


I've always thought that the more a member posts, the more influence he/she has on content and style.


----------



## JeffD

musicrom said:


> Respect = win/win.


Four words that could change the world.


----------

