# Understanding Brahms --- A Guide To His Music



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Hello All,

I'm posting here not as a huge fan of Brahms, but with the hopes of becoming one. It would be nice if each of you could give perhaps a 'Top 5' list of your favorite works and why you consider them favorites. Also, _why_ do you think Brahms is one of the most revered Romantic Era composers? I'm trying to come to grips with my Brahms allergy. I've been seriously listening to classical music for almost 15 years, but Brahms has been a hurdle I wanted to jump over, but that 'lightbulb' moment just hasn't happened yet.

Thanks in advance to all who can help and give your own take of his music.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Neo Romanza said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I'm posting here not as a huge fan of Brahms, but with the hopes of becoming one. It would be nice if each of you could give perhaps a 'Top 5' list of your favorite works and why you consider them favorites. Also, _why_ do you think Brahms is one of the most revered Romantic Era composers? I'm trying to come to grips with my Brahms allergy. I've been seriously listening to classical music for almost 15 years, but Brahms has been a hurdle I wanted to jump over, but that 'lightbulb' moment just hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Thanks in advance to all who can help and give your own take of his music.


As a pianist myself, I recommend the many piano works (slower ones) as a direct and immediate way to experience his 'soulfulness'. They're easy to follow and get familiar with. More weighty than Mendelssohn and more 'classical' sounding than Chopin, and yet very different from Schumann (different artistic vision than Schumann, IMO).


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Neo Romanza said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I'm posting here not as a huge fan of Brahms, but with the hopes of becoming one. It would be nice if each of you could give perhaps a 'Top 5' list of your favorite works and why you consider them favorites. Also, _why_ do you think Brahms is one of the most revered Romantic Era composers? I'm trying to come to grips with my Brahms allergy. I've been seriously listening to classical music for almost 15 years, but Brahms has been a hurdle I wanted to jump over, but that 'lightbulb' moment just hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Thanks in advance to all who can help and give your own take of his music.


Brahms’s music has been divisive ever since the first public performances - there’s a famous essay which looks at this by Peter Gay (called Aimez-vous Brahms?) In that essay, it’s clear from reviews that some people hear the music as very formal and dry and cold, and other people hear the same music in the same performance as too sentimental. You can’t argue, it’s beyond reason.

I guess I have the Brahms genes because I’ve never had a problem. When I was a kid I saw a televised piano competition with the second piano concerto and I was hooked! But there’s no point in suggesting things to listen to or anything like that - you’re either a Brahms person or not. End of.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Brahms is a composer who displays great warmth, color, and beautiful chord progressions. He's great for contemplative souls like myself, maybe not for people who are more into zippy music.

My introduction to Brahms was the Violin Concerto. The dark colors of the first movement enthralled me. Perlman/Giulini do a great job of bringing this out.









This naturally led me to the Piano Concertos, both of which are wonderfully expressive, the first more dark and dramatic, and the second a bit more songful. Gilels/Jochum is superb for its depth of expression.









And then you have the symphonies. Brahms was very much a perfectionist, the shadow of Beethoven hovering over him, so he only produced four. The good news is they are all masterpieces. The first is very direct, kind of echoing Beethoven. The second is more pastoral, even using the famous lullaby theme. The 3rd and 4th are my favorites. I highly recommend the Carlos Kleiber/Vienna recording of the dramatic, beautiful 4th. But perhaps even more strongly for starters I would recommend the 3rd. It's just so darned appealing from start to finish, with beautiful melodies and lush chords. Abbado/Berlin hit a home run in this symphony.









For chamber music, the best place to start is the autumnal Clarinet Quintet (I recommend De Peyer/Melos), but for beginners I really like this disc of solo piano music. This is where you really hear Brahms at his most raw. Just fantastic, rich writing. The Op. 117 intermezzi are my favorite.









Finally, I recommend Brahms's masterpiece of choral writing, the German Requiem (Ein Deutsches Requiem). This is a contemplative, consoling, but also often dramatic work that displays not only his gift for color and beautiful harmonies, but even harkens back to Bach with fugal writing. I like Karajan's digital recording the best, and Klemperer has many admirers, but I think for a newbie that the 1989 Gardiner is an excellent choice to hear the genius of the writing for the first time. The Monteverdi Choir is masterful.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Easy Brahms: the complete Hungarian Dances in their orchestral versions. Any recording is fine. 
Fun Brahms: the Liebeslieder Waltzes.
Not really Brahms, but close: the Schoenberg arrangement of the Piano Quartet in G. An incredible tour de force of orchestral writing. The last movement in extremely thrilling. Neeme Jarvi on Chandos. This then will lead to:
The piano quartets in their original verions, which are delightful.
Finally, a symphony has to be here: The First is my choice. Great recordings abound, but Charles Munch with the Boston Symphony is oh so romantic and thrilling.

You know what I think is the major hurdle for people regarding Brahms? They take it waaaay too seriously. Why is that? He certainly didn't! He had a real sense of humor and would be appalled at how turgid and serious some performers make his music sound. It's one reason I can't stand Klemperer's recordings: they're too heavy and serious. A chamber orchestra does the symphonies much, much better.


----------



## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Easy Brahms: the complete Hungarian Dances in their orchestral versions. Any recording is fine.
> Fun Brahms: the Liebeslieder Waltzes.
> Not really Brahms, but close: the Schoenberg arrangement of the Piano Quartet in G. An incredible tour de force of orchestral writing. The last movement in extremely thrilling. Neeme Jarvi on Chandos. This then will lead to:
> The piano quartets in their original verions, which are delightful.
> ...


I do like Klemperer's Brahms, but I also like Mackerras's with a chamber orchestra. I probably play the latter more than any other, because it's the only chamber orchestra version I have. 

But my favorite Brahms is his chamber music. I would recommend starting with his first piano trio. It's known as Op. 8, but Brahms substantially revised it late in life. So you get a bit of the young Brahms and a bit of the older Brahms.


----------



## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

I agree with Mandryka that there seems to be a Marmite element to appreciating Brahms's music. And some seem to like only certain parts of his output. The first pieces I heard of his were the _Drei Intermezzi_ op.117, played by my schoolteacher. Specifically the middle _andante non troppo_, and I was bowled over. Young people who like classical music tend to like a romantic atmosphere and this has it.

However, later on when looking into what else Brahms offered I found that I really only liked the late piano music. I still can't place his quartets among the ones I love most and tend to agree with those who find them almost technically perfect and that this is perhaps their actual flaw. So perfect that they pass by unnoticed. I also find his celebrated violin concerto to be somewhat overrated. And yet I like his cello sonatas - especially no.2 whose 2nd movement opens like some dinner jazz quartet. I also like the German Requiem.

I'm not really a superfan of any composer and I also don't expect to like all a composers works, or even most of them. The only way to get to the heart of a composers music is to spend time with it. Not just for absorption, but also so that you increase the chances where the music and your mood/state of mind match on the day. It's like when you start a novel umpteen times and give up after 5 pages, then years later you start and finish it within a week. The time was just right, everything came together.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Try the string quintets and sextets


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'd say pick up a cheap used set of his symphonies and start listening. I bought both the Solti/CSO, and Karajan/ BPO 70s cycle and I really enjoy these recordings. I like the first three symphonies the most. Also the German Requiem by Klemperer. In fact there's a cheap Klemperer EMI box that includes the symphonies and the requiem. That may be a good place to start.


----------



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

From Brahms I prefer, some in addition to the above-listed:

Piano Quintet -- magisterial if I might say so, crazy ending
Piano Pieces Op. 116-119, especially Op. 118: No. 2 that I find perfect
Violin Sonata No. 1 in G Major
I don't know if you like lieder, but Op. 91: No. 2, Geistliches Wiegenlied (Spiritual Cradle--Song), "Die ihr schwebet um diese Palmen" for mezzo-soprano, viola, and piano is to me the ultimate lullaby
Tragic Overture -- maybe borders on savage!, just saying ...


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I just wanted to say thanks to all who have responded, but also that I own a good bit of Brahms in my CD collection, but my dad owns most of it.

I own the Brahms _Complete_ box set on DG, but I haven't even started to dig into yet:


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

My attempt at a Top 5 (in chronological order):

String Sextet No. 2
German Requiem
Piano Quartet No. 3
Symphony No. 4
Clarinet Quintet

While Brahms’ first string sextet has been called his most accessible chamber work, and while it’s a great work in its own right, his second string sextet is my favorite. It’s a very intimate and cohesive work that Brahms’ composed in memory of his “lost love” Agathe von Siebold, to whom he had been engaged but from whom he had later reluctantly withdrawn.

The German Requiem was the first work by Brahms that I got into and it appealed to me immediately. It’s just about the most powerful choral music ever written, but it might help to be into Bach first since it’s Lutheran and quite Bachian work.

Like the second string sextet the third piano quartet is a very personal work, inspired by Brahms’ love for Clara Schumann. A dramatic and emotional work with a gorgeous slow movement.

None of Brahms’ symphonies are very accessible but the fourth might be the most convincing. It’s a dark and valedictory work. I would suggest approaching the symphonies in reverse numerical order.

Brahms’ clarinet quintet is his most popular chamber work. It’s very euphonious and often referred to as autumnal.

I would also recommend the Song of Destiny (Schicksalslied). Perhaps Brahms’ most likeable work.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Neo Romanza said:


> I own the Brahms _Complete_ box set on DG, but I haven't even started to dig into yet:


There's a 15 minute piece for female vocal, chorus and orchestra in that box called Alto Rhapsody. Give it a listen. It's a beautiful work!


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

starthrower said:


> There's a 15 minute piece for female vocal, chorus and orchestra in that box called Alto Rhapsody. Give it a listen. It's a beautiful work!


Oh yeah, I've heard this work before many years ago. I thought it was gorgeous. The performance I listened to was the Baker/Klemperer on EMI. I've also heard Abbado who was also quite good.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

A bit earlier I listened to both of his _Clarinet Sonatas_ from the DG _Complete_ box set and I have to say I was unimpressed. I guess I'm one of those listeners who just prefers more interesting harmonies, melodies or for the passion in the music do be a bit more upfront or, at least, when it comes Romantic Era composers. I'm not closing the door on Brahms, but I'm not inspired or impressed enough to go any further at the moment. I've tried for years to get into his music, but I suppose he's just one of those composers who I'll never understand. Maybe I'll try again in a few more years.


----------



## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Another suggestion would be his lieder, if you like vocal music. Others here have covered most of the traditional bases; his symphonies, concertos, chamber music, and piano music. The beautiful F major string quintet is one other piece I would single out for recommendation here. I'm sorry you don't react to him the same way I do; he is a master I revere. But not everything is for everyone, I guess.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Monsalvat said:


> Another suggestion would be his lieder, if you like vocal music. Others here have covered most of the traditional bases; his symphonies, concertos, chamber music, and piano music. The beautiful F major string quintet is one other piece I would single out for recommendation here. I'm sorry you don't react to him the same way I do; he is a master I revere. But not everything is for everyone, I guess.


Well, I think a lot of times composers have an immediate impact on me, but if they don't and I remain intrigued by them in some way, then this curiosity will carry me through until I finally click with their music. With Brahms, it's different. When I listen to his music, it just doesn't hit me in any way intellectually or emotionally. I just remain indifferent. It's difficult to explain, but with Brahms, I just find myself reaching for the stop button. I find it difficult to make it through a piece.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There are some exceptions but overall Brahms is an "inward" composer. He wrote barely a dozen large scale orchestral/choral works but even they are often "chamberish" (the 2nd serenade clearly is and some people also claimed that especially the 3rd and 4th symphony were "orchestral chamber music"). There is some powerful music (incl. chamber works like the piano quintet, first piano quartet etc.) but I think most friends of "orchestral spectacular" will not find their favorite music in Brahms's symphonies.
The concerti are supposedly fiendishly hard to play but also mostly "unflashy" and also rather long and symphonic. (Brahms could write more extrovert virtuosic when he wanted, such as in the Paganini variations.) We have explicit statements by Brahms that he abhorred what he called "effects" (despite few exceptions like the triangle in 4th symphony, 3rd movement) and although the inner workings of his music might be "modern"/progressive (as Schoenberg pointed out) the overall impression is conservative (nothing wrong with that).
Like with other music, I sometimes think it's more surprising that most of Brahms is as popular as it is and not considered a "musician's musician" or an acquired taste (like e.g. Reger is). I find it usually superior to the typically "flashy" and spectactular but there are movements where I'd wish for a bit less inward melancholy.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Can you explain to me what this progressive aspect of Brahms is? The “developing variation.” I can’t actually hear any points in common between Schoenberg and Brahms, though I know there is one. Is it audible or is it too deep in the construction of Schoenberg’s music?


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Sorry, I can't. I am afraid you need to delve into Schoenberg's writings or others and there will probably also be people who think Schoenberg was wrong or at least exaggerating. I know one guy (a musician and composer) who thinks that "developing variation" and extending development over a whole movement was basically present in Beethoven. E.g. "falling thirds" are apparently a structural principle both in Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata and Brahms' 4th symphony.
In any case, I think the charge (against which Schoenberg argued) that Brahms was backwards seems also exaggerated. It seems to me that, except for keeping to the restricted range of natural brass and avoiding obviously colorful orchestration, Brahms does not stick out from many other composers active in the 1870-80s. Of course he also rejected "tone poems" but tone poems usually used either simplified or freer forms compared to normal symphonies, they were rarely an "advancement", it was just a different (external) framework.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I love Brahms but I didn't always take effortlessly to his music. He revered Beethoven but was in many ways the opposite. I liked the more overtly dramatic works as a child - the first piano concerto and some of the chamber music (piano quartets, 3rd violin sonata) but found the symphonies disappointing until I discovered Klemperer's rugged recordings. And I was only lukewarm about the violin concerto (Oistrakh's recording). So far, though, I have described my reaction as a teenager. 

These days I don't actually like those Klemperer recordings _that_ much and look for warmth above drama or grit in orchestral Brahms. The rigorous and almost classical discipline of his music calls out for that. So for the symphonies give me Walter's recordings (that I explicitly rejected as a teenager) and the wonderful Abbado recordings. Or Sanderling - his spaciousness challenged me at first but not any more. And there are so many others. Brahms is one of those composers who responds to a variety of interpretive approaches. Just so long as there is some warmth.


----------



## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Not to get off topic, but Swafford discussed some of it in his biography (the developing variation). It's well above my level to discuss but to quickly illustrate I think you can look at how motivic the Second Symphony is. (I'm not focusing on the structure at all here.) We start with this motif in the low strings, followed by a horn call:















And _way_ before we get to the development section (starting at bar 179), we already see Brahms developing both of these motifs.








So he doesn't even wait for the "development section" for the real development to start. In fact, the horn call itself features the melodic inversion of that low string motif, D-C#-D. And the development section starts with this same horn call, followed by a chain of the inversion of the same motif in the oboe and second violin.








Motivic development by itself wasn't a totally new idea (see Beethoven's Fifth) and perhaps someone more qualified than myself could explain Brahms's use of the technique better than myself. I have Tovey's analysis here in front of me, which is worth reading for anyone wanting a guided tour through the score. These red and blue themes I've highlighted, what Tovey calls (a) and (b), are really pervasive if you look for them. But writing about the second movement, Tovey says “It is never the complexity of Brahms that makes him difficult for us; it is simply his originality.” I would add that despite the manifest troubles he had with himself, Brahms's music sounds natural and unforced. One could comb through this piece with a magnifying glass, or simply relax and enjoy it; it is written with a nearly academic rigor, but it is also marvelously expressive and organic. He simply weaves these motifs into the symphonic fabric, and while they are always audible, they never stick out as if they don't belong. A better example of purely motivic writing I think is the first movement of Brahms's First, but he achieves more subtlety in the first movement of the Second.

The opening theme of the Piano Quintet is effectively a set of brief variations on a smaller motif; the development begins before the theme is even over! So this is probably even a better example than the Second Symphony at showing the developing variation, although I don't want to clog my post up with even more illustrations.

I also didn't take effortlessly to his music, but I'm so glad I eventually did. He was a real craftsman but he also gives me a lot of joy.


----------



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

I like Brahms 1st Symphony & his 4th as well. I learned the 1st movement of the 1st symphony in HS Orchestra. We had a guest conductor who knew how to extract passion from the string section of the orchestra, which illuminates my love for Brahms. I approached his 4th symphony recently and I had to listen to it a few times to find the passion that is in there. The light bulb went off after 4 plays, I think Brahms is conservative in his display for passion. I typically like chamber orchestra performances the most, each instrument is in it's pure form.

The Academic Festival Overture is good as well... it's got some German drinking songs that are a thematic source for the celebration of education and graduation in the piece. Brahms was asked to write the overture as a piece where the celebration of Brahms from his alma mater recognized Brahms for his life work It is an easy listen.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I especially like these variative derivations if the themes change their "poetic character" in a fascinating way. Two examples that are very easy to recognize are the 3rd movements of the 2nd symphony and the clarinet quintet where the fast sections are just variants of the more lyrical themes of the beginning of the movements. Or in the 3rd of the piano quintet I think all themes, including the trio (with a complete change in character) are derived from the same material. 
And in the development of the 1st mvmt of the 3rd symphony the two themes (the main theme from the very beginning and the A major theme first appearing in the clarinet) switch their character: The stormy "cascading" theme becomes quiet and pensive and the bucolic "clarinet" theme becomes fierce and dramatic (similar transformations to the latter are quite frequent already in Haydn (partly because so many of his themes are at first bucolic and "harmless") but such a "switch" seems quite unique).


----------



## sasdwf (Feb 6, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> I just wanted to say thanks to all who have responded, but also that I own a good bit of Brahms in my CD collection, but my dad owns most of it.
> 
> I own the Brahms _Complete_ box set on DG, but I haven't even started to dig into yet:


That set has lots of performances of great music. My starting point with the set was all of the clarinet pieces: sonatas, trio, and quintet. Beautiful music, brilliantly played. Highly recommended.


----------



## sasdwf (Feb 6, 2021)

sasdwf said:


> That set has lots of performances of great music. My starting point with the set was all of the clarinet pieces: sonatas, trio, and quintet. Beautiful music, brilliantly played. Highly recommended.


I see now that you listened to the clarinet sonatas and we’re unimpressed. While I would recommend all these works for a listen, it might be more useful to sample the overtures, a symphony, one of the concertos, the requiem, the alto rhapsody, piano intermezzi, and a few quartets and quintets to see if any of them speak to you more than others. The box set is a great place to start exploring.

I’ve been happy with most of the symphony recordings recommended here, but perhaps listening to performances conducted by Furtwangler and Toscanini might provide additional insights that would help you assess your interest in the symphonies.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

sasdwf said:


> I see now that you listened to the clarinet sonatas and we’re unimpressed. While I would recommend all these works for a listen, it might be more useful to sample the overtures, a symphony, one of the concertos, the requiem, the alto rhapsody, piano intermezzi, and a few quartets and quintets to see if any of them speak to you more than others. The box set is a great place to start exploring.
> 
> I’ve been happy with most of the symphony recordings recommended here, but perhaps listening to performances conducted by Furtwangler and Toscanini might provide additional insights that would help you assess your interest in the symphonies.


Oh, I'm familiar with all of Brahms' orchestral works, concerti and some of the chamber and choral works. I've heard his music a fair bit over the past 15 years or so, but it just hasn't clicked with me in any profound way. As I stated earlier, I'm not going to close the door on his music, but I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to revisit his music any time soon.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Neo Romanza said:


> Oh, I'm familiar with all of Brahms' orchestral works, concerti and some of the chamber and choral works. I've heard his music a fair bit over the past 15 years or so, but it just hasn't clicked with me in any profound way. As I stated earlier, I'm not going to close the door on his music, but I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to revisit his music any time soon.


Here’s an off the wall idea for you. A composer called Wolfgang Rihm wrote a symphony in four movements called Nähe Fern. Each movement is designed to go along with one the four Brahms symphonies. Why not give it a shot? You may enjoy it more than the Brahms.



https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/16/000149161.pdf


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Or another Brahms based composition, this time by the excellent Bernhard Lang


----------



## RandallPeterListens (Feb 9, 2012)

From the perspective of immediately approachable Brahms, I would suggest the Academic Festival Overture for orchestra and the Capriccio Op. 76, #2 for piano (well, at least it's short!). If they don't grab you, well, you'll probably never be a Brahms fan. Thank God there is a lot of great music by other composers to listen to!
This is somewhat of a trite generalization, probably mentioned by one or more of the previous replies, but one of the real glories of Brahms (esp. in the chamber music) is what I would call the "interior voices". Many composers have a beautiful melody, nice harmonies over some kind of solid bass, but Brahms' middle or interior voices often have a life of their own. This might be why some people find Brahms' music "dense" or "thick". If you can learn, after a couple first-time listenings to a piece, to pick those middle or interior voices and follow them as you listen, you might find a beauty in Brahms you didn't realize was there.
That said, I am no slavish mooning fan of Brahms - as many times as I hear it, the German Requiem just bores me to tears. However, the Piano Concerto #2 can often move me to tears of quite a different kind.


----------



## sasdwf (Feb 6, 2021)

Thanks for your excellent suggestions. I’ve heard most of them, and I heartily second them . But I especially wanted to thank you for calling my attention to the Lupu disc. It is superb, and I’ve somehow missed listening to it all these years.




Brahmsianhorn said:


> Brahms is a composer who displays great warmth, color, and beautiful chord progressions. He's great for contemplative souls like myself, maybe not for people who are more into zippy music.
> 
> My introduction to Brahms was the Violin Concerto. The dark colors of the first movement enthralled me. Perlman/Giulini do a great job of bringing this out.
> 
> ...


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I'm getting the itch to try his music again tonight...

There's something about this man's music that is special and that I believe I have to continue to keep trying with his music.


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)




----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Floeddie said:


> I like Brahms 1st Symphony & his 4th as well. I learned the 1st movement of the 1st symphony in HS Orchestra. We had a guest conductor who knew how to extract passion from the string section of the orchestra, which illuminates my love for Brahms. I approached his 4th symphony recently and *I had to listen to it a few times to find the passion that is in there. The light bulb went off after 4 plays, I think Brahms is conservative in his display for passion. *I typically like chamber orchestra performances the most, each instrument is in it's pure form.
> 
> The Academic Festival Overture is good as well... it's got some German drinking songs that are a thematic source for the celebration of education and graduation in the piece. Brahms was asked to write the overture as a piece where the celebration of Brahms from his alma mater recognized Brahms for his life work It is an easy listen.


It sounds like you might be trying to find something that is not crucial in Brahms's music and I feel it might work better to let the music tell you what it wants to.

I wonder what you mean by passion? There is passion in Bach, Mozart and Beethoven - but the passion manifests in very different ways with each. It is such a vague word. Anyway, I'm not sure I would think of passion as being a defining quality of Brahms's music but it is present, particularly in a lot of the chamber music. There is nothing dry or passionless in his orchestral music. Nor is it conservative (it is disciplined, structured but often radically so) - even in its "display of passion".


----------



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> It sounds like you might be trying to find something that is not crucial in Brahms's music and I feel it might work better to let the music tell you what it wants to.
> 
> I wonder what you mean by passion? There is passion in Bach, Mozart and Beethoven - but the passion manifests in very different ways with each. It is such a vague word. Anyway, I'm not sure I would think of passion as being a defining quality of Brahms's music but it is present, particularly in a lot of the chamber music. There is nothing dry or passionless in his orchestral music. Nor is it conservative (it is disciplined, structured but often radically so) - even in its "display of passion".


Note that I use the term passion loosely, but not in any kind of erotic, perhaps a romantic sense is a better way to express acceptance. Some of what I get from Brahms is similar to Beethoven. There is a great sense of discipline and precision in the statement of thematic material. Brahms is a bit of a throwback for me, Perhaps I am using the wrong descriptor. It is the feeling of being swept with bidirectional waves of intense liking or love for the quality and the expression of loving feelings the musicians have for their instruments. It results a feeling of warmth, and emotional pleasure for the pleasure it gives to the listener.. It is a clarifying feeling that comes to me with an expressive happiness. Vivaldi hits me the same way. I also get a very strong sense of passion from Tchaikovsky. I hope that helps.

I don't expect any music to have the same effect for everyone. A great string section gets me going every time. But it isn't the same for my son. He is clearly more analytical than I am. If you think of beer, there are many flavors. I like some, I love some, but I don't enjoy all beer, my taste buds say it's so. It's the same with music. I hope that helps.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Floeddie said:


> Note that I use the term passion loosely, but not in any kind of erotic, perhaps a romantic sense is a better way to express acceptance. Some of what I get from Brahms is similar to Beethoven. There is a great sense of discipline and precision in the statement of thematic material. Brahms is a bit of a throwback for me, Perhaps I am using the wrong descriptor. It is the feeling of being swept with bidirectional waves of intense liking or love for the quality and the expression of loving feelings the musicians have for their instruments. It results *a feeling of warmth*, and emotional pleasure for the pleasure it gives to the listener.. It is a clarifying feeling that comes to me with an expressive happiness. Vivaldi hits me the same way. I also get a very strong sense of passion from Tchaikovsky. I hope that helps.
> 
> I don't expect any music to have the same effect for everyone. A great string section gets me going every time. But it isn't the same for my son. He is clearly more analytical than I am. If you think of beer, there are many flavors. I like some, I love some, but I don't enjoy all beer, my taste buds say it's so. It's the same with music. I hope that helps.


Thanks for the more detailed description. I would say that of all composers Brahms is the best exemplar of warmth in music. The performers who best realise this tend to be less dramatic.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

If I had to recommend 5 works by Brahms which communicate and resonate the most with me, they would probably be these:


*Piano Sonata no. 3 in F minor, Op. 5

Piano Trio no. 1 in B major, Op. 8

Piano Quartet no. 3 in C minor, Op. 60

Violin Sonata no. 1 in G major, Op. 78

String Quintet no 1 in F major, Op. 88*


They represent not the ambitious Great Symphonist Brahms but a human being with a wonderful sense of melody, harmonies and delicate beauty, atmopheres.


----------



## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)




----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I highly recommend the Handel Variations for piano. One of his best works


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

On the surface, he's very dependable, the epitome of the 19th century bourgeois composer. One writer compared him to a well worn coat, more practical than anything else. There's a deeply personal side to his music, connections to experiences and people, a sense of emotion only just being kept in check by adherence to classical forms. He was one of the few composers who came from an impoverished background. 

His large scale works have a pared down feel, thanks to the no frills orchestration, while his chamber works can seem almost orchestral in scope (quite a few of them started out as symphonies in the planning). I'm not sure if Schoenberg's argument about Brahms being an innovator is a strong one, but its clear that he took the rigorous thematic integrity of composers before him and developed it in a unique and creative way.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Sid James said:


> He was one of the few composers who came from an impoverished background.


This seems to have been exaggerated. His family was petit bourgeois, not poor/impoverished. He received professional piano/composition instruction rather early on and his younger brother also became a pianist. The stories about playing in brothels are very probably made up.
Beethoven, Schubert, Bruckner had all similar or probably poorer backgrounds than Brahms


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

His father was a musician, but his mother basically working class. At best, they where lower middle class. Rather than brothels, he might have played in bars, which isn't unusual given that Hamburg is a port city.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

My personal pick for twelve essential Brahms works:









The compositions of Johannes Brahms


Johannes Brahms (7 May 1833 – 3 April 1897) was a German composer, pianist, and conductor of the mid-Romantic period. Born in Hamburg into a...




artrock2006.blogspot.com


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Look into the wikipedia article. They claim that no minors would have been admitted to seedy establishments under threat of severe fines or punishments, thus hardly worth the risk of a few talers. His father did have a stable position at the theater and in any case a dirt poor family would not have been able to afford piano+composition lessons for a 7 year old. Impoverished 7 year olds at that time would glue labels on cans of boot blackener or worse to help support the family, not cost money for lessons. "Modest" would be a better term than impoverished (the latter is doubly misleading because apparently the family situation improved over Brahms' early life)
For our understanding almost everyone except the really rich was precarious in the 19th century, even many "solid" middle class families were one bad investment or one untimely death of the breadwinner away from impoverishment. 
In any case, many composers were from (lower) middle class backgrounds, simply because many composers were children of professional musicians and musicians were mostly lower middle class. Brahms' modest background is less exceptional than e.g. Mendelssohn's very comfortable bourgeois background.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Since you raised the brothel issue, I merely replied that "he might have played in bars." The 19th century was a time of great social mobility, and where people sat in terms of class could indeed be precarious. Modest or humble might have been a better term to use than impoverished, but I was attempting to contrast that aspect of his background with Brahms becoming the typical bourgeois composer. I think that the story of his emergence from those humble beginnings in Hamburg is interesting.


----------



## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Swafford claimed that Brahms played in lower-class establishments, which to me sounded like bars with a brothel upstairs. Swafford also drew a connection between this and Brahms's later struggles with sexuality and women. It seems that it was a traumatic experience for Brahms as a child to be playing in such establishments.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Richard Atkinson has done several videos on Brahms lately


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Free But Alone*
Brahms and women









Free But Alone


No one composer, perhaps in the history of Western classical music, was more active in averting history’s prying eyes than Johannes Brahms. Brutally self-critical about his own work and exceptionally shy when it came to his personal life, Brahms sought to preserve his legacy by keeping his...




van-magazine.com





"Brahms’ general dislike of women is surprisingly well documented, leading some scholars to label him an outright misogynist. They suspect that this aversion stemmed from his experiences as a boy playing piano for sailors and prostitutes alike in _Animierlokale _(arousal pubs) in his hometown of Hamburg. While the accuracy of these stories is disputed, they are nonetheless an integral part of the picture Brahms chose to paint of himself and his apparently troubled childhood."

"A telling anecdote in Eugenie Schauffler’s biography of Brahms captures it all. Max Friedlaender, an acquaintance of Brahms, attended a birthday party for the composer in 1880.... Friedlaender was tasked with walking the now heavily intoxicated Brahms back home. In their conversation, Brahms broke out in another rant: “You tell me I should have the same respect, the same exalted homage for women that you have! …You expect that of a man cursed with a childhood like mine!” Friedlaender summarized how Brahms’ father would “drag him from bed to play for dancing and accompany obscene songs in the most depraved dives.” 

"Brahms, recounting the horrors to Friedlaender, continued, “When the sailing ships made port after months of continuous voyaging, the sailors would rush out of them like beasts of prey, looking for women. And these half-clad girls, to make the men still wilder, used to take me on their laps between dances, kiss and caress and excite me. That was my first impression of the love of women. And you expect _me _to honor them as you do!”

"Brahms was not only mentally affected by these events; he lost weight, became anemic, developed insomnia, and severe and debilitating migraines. Although later in life Brahms described this time as character building, it no doubt had a lasting negative impact on him, precipitating his lifelong antagonistic views toward women. Instead of seeking out meaningful romantic relationships, Brahms sought prostitutes to fulfill his sexual desires."


----------



## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Brahms is my secret love. Really, all days he is on my mind. I hum many of his tunes when I am stressed.

my 5 fave works:


Piano Quintet, opus 34.
Clarinet Quintet, opus 115.
German Requiem, opus 45.
Symphony 3, opus 90.
Piano concerto #2, opus 83.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Neo Romanza said:


> Also, _why_ do you think Brahms is one of the most revered Romantic Era composers?


I'm not sure. I can only give my perspective: Form, form, and for good measure, a bit more form. This is simplifying it a bit, but it's mostly about form. How one passage connects to another.

Though I'd say, instead of listening to my favorite Brahms pieces, just listen to someone else you enjoy.


----------



## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

The big 3 for Late Romanticism imo is Brahms, Dvorak, and Tchaikovsky. Definitely well spent time to get to Know these Compositions better.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> This seems to have been exaggerated. His family was petit bourgeois, not poor/impoverished. He received professional piano/composition instruction rather early on and his younger brother also became a pianist. *The stories about playing in brothels are very probably made up.*
> Beethoven, Schubert, Bruckner had all similar or probably poorer backgrounds than Brahms


If they had a piano, I'd be surprised if he didn't play while waiting for his "date."


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Monsalvat said:


> Swafford claimed that Brahms played in lower-class establishments, which to me sounded like bars with a brothel upstairs. Swafford also drew a connection between this and Brahms's later struggles with sexuality and women. It seems that it was a traumatic experience for Brahms as a child to be playing in such establishments.


Hurwitz said that Swafford's scholarship is outdated in that regard at least once. I don't know if that's true but the Swafford biography is over 20 years old now.


----------

