# Classical music -- a fringe genre?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I've seen estimates that classical music makes up about 3% of total recorded music sales. Today I saw this from a correspondent in Europe: "I just read in today's news paper that the percentage of classical music listening here in Denmark is 2.6 % of the total amount of hours listening."

Is this real? Can the audience for classical music really be as small as these numbers suggest?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I've seen estimates that classical music makes up about 3% of total recorded music sales. Today I saw this from a correspondent in Europe: "I just read in today's news paper that the percentage of classical music listening here in Denmark is 2.6 % of the total amount of hours listening."
> 
> Is this real? Can the audience for classical music really be as small as these numbers suggest?


Why not? After all, it's mostly only the intellectual elite that listen to it, eh? If the percentage got up to 10, the eliteness would be sadly watered down, eh?

Hey, I live on less than $2K per month; classical music listening s the only elite thing I can afford.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

If classical must be on the fringe, so be it. I will make fans of classical music 1 at a time.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> If classical must be on the fringe, so be it. I will make fans of classical music 1 at a time.




Excellent. Go get'em, girl!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My view: These is, as always, a desire for new "serious" music. The old repertoire is largely worn out in people's ears; classical music will be a museum (if it isn't already) without fresh repertoire.

Unfortunately, there is little fresh repertoire being written that people by and large want to hear. How much new music has entered the repertoire in the last half-century? So audiences are shrinking, as seen not only in music sales but in concert attendance.

If this view is correct, it might be useful to speculate on the reasons that serious composers fail (for the most part) to compose new music that has broad appeal.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> If classical must be on the fringe, so be it. I will make fans of classical music 1 at a time.


Deep down inside they all need classical music, they just don't know it yet.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Deep down inside they all need classical music, they just don't know it yet.


:lol: Classical music evangelism ftw!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

KenOC said:


> If this view is correct, it might be useful to speculate on the reasons that serious composers fail (for the most part) to compose new music that has broad appeal.


It would help if they wrote in a musical language people understood. It's all well and good to push boundaries, but 100 years ago they were pushed too far too fast, and we are experiencing the repercussions today. How many books would you buy and read written in this language?

Ib-rur flaon flavon! Ib-ror vlenon Flonen, Mnim-brur jom-flue. Dimmen donnan napt ol nipt. Gist hreenor ilbur flurnnan feen, dis donnan ol nipt vlenon dimmen. Tren hur ol Ib-rur i lod flavon brur-flue _orangutan_ hreen.

However I think many composers are returning to a more widely accepted musical language at least partially so there is always hope for a resurgence of vigor. But I would never want it to become too mainstream anyway. That would be horrible.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

It may be a small figure in percentage terms but doesn't it still amount to a large number of people in total? Unlike the larger-selling teenybop end of the market where people usually outgrow what they used to listen to indiscriminately when young (perhaps to the point where they eventually don't buy anything at all when other things like having a family take precedent) fans of genres like classical and jazz tend to stay loyal and continue to collect on a consistent basis.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> ...fans of genres like classical and jazz tend to stay loyal and continue to collect on a consistent basis.


I agree in principle, but still...3% of music sales?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I agree in principle, but still...3% of music sales?


I'd be interested to see a statistical breakdown of the other 97%, Ken - have you a link or a reference?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'd like to know the trend - not in relative numbers but in absolute numbers. Obviously youtube and file sharing have hurt the industry, but they might destroy a thing that has only 3% of that industry.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I've seen estimates that classical music makes up about 3% of total recorded music sales. Today I saw this from a correspondent in Europe: "I just read in today's news paper that the percentage of classical music listening here in Denmark is 2.6 % of the total amount of hours listening."
> 
> Is this real? Can the audience for classical music really be as small as these numbers suggest?


Come on, 3% isn't _that_ bad. How much of that 3% is made up of John Cage and contemporary?  I was listening to some symphonies of Heitor Villa-Lobos (1887-1959) the other day, which I found quite positively engaging upon first listening. I was probably the only guy playing the symphonies so far this year in my city? :lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Come on, 3% isn't _that_ bad. How much of that 3% is made up of John Cage and contemporary?


Probably between little and none.  In any event, I have no good sources to back up the 3%. I have read this statistic twice on British reports of music sales, none in the US, so it is quite unsure. I'd love to have better numbers! However, I have no reason to doubt it... I posted only because it was backed up by the report from Denmark.


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## Adagietto (Jun 11, 2012)

> I'd be interested to see a statistical breakdown of the other 97%, Ken - have you a link or a reference?


Source: Nielsen - Some statistics.

Of the 376 million music units sold in 2012, Classical Music sold 7.5 million.

102.50 Rock
52.20 Alternative
49.70 R&B
44.60 Country
31.90 Metal
24.20 Rap
22.90 Christian/Gospel
12.30 Soundtrack
9.70 Latin
8.70 Dance/Electronic
8.10 Jazz
7.50 Classical
1.70 New Age


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

Classical music lovers are far fewer but their appreciation goes to a much deeper level.
While a huge amount more will be buying more popular music, I wonder how many will actually be listening to it to the same depth!


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Huh. Well, if the second biggest selling category is something called "Alternative", then it can't be very alternative.
And you can't call Rap 'music', it's barely one step above primal grunting.
GG


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Adagietto said:


> Source: Nielsen - Some statistics.
> 
> Of the 376 million music units sold in 2012, Classical Music sold 7.5 million.
> 
> ...


We're kickin' New Age's butt!

We don't want to kill it though. We need it there.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

KenOC said:


> My view: These is, as always, a desire for new "serious" music. The old repertoire is largely worn out in people's ears; classical music will be a museum (if it isn't already) without fresh repertoire.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is little fresh repertoire being written that people by and large want to hear. How much new music has entered the repertoire in the last half-century? So audiences are shrinking, as seen not only in music sales but in concert attendance.
> 
> If this view is correct, it might be useful to speculate on the reasons that serious composers fail (for the most part) to compose new music that has broad appeal.


This is why we need great new tonal composers! ( Give me links if you know great new tonal composers)


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

GraemeG said:


> Huh. Well, if the second biggest selling category is something called "Alternative", then it can't be very alternative.
> And you can't call Rap 'music', it's barely one step above primal grunting.
> GG


The reason why rap music is so popular is that the rappers are able to handle "the press game" very well, they are having these "beefs" with each other and keep throwing back insults on the press and even on their own songs.
That can be very entertaining.
Also you don't need a long attention span for rap, even 50 cent said that " I know that my audience doesn't have a long attention span" Also their music is filled with Hooks etc...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

jani said:


> Also you don't need a long attention span for rap, even 50 cent said that " I know that my audience doesn't have a long attention span" Also their music is filled with Hooks etc...


...which often derive from sampling other people's music.

And if 50 cent's audience isn't too bothered with how he views them then they deserve all the pushbutton lowest common denominator garbage that he and countless others churn out.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Hard to believe soundtrack albums outsell classical by that much. Much of it might be considered classical by a stretch. Actually much of it is rehashed classical.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Weston said:


> Actually much of it is rehashed classical.


Without the boring parts.

Just kidding! Have mercy!


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

KenOC said:


> My view: These is, as always, a desire for new "serious" music. The old repertoire is largely worn out in people's ears; classical music will be a museum (if it isn't already) without fresh repertoire.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is little fresh repertoire being written that people by and large want to hear. How much new music has entered the repertoire in the last half-century? So audiences are shrinking, as seen not only in music sales but in concert attendance.
> 
> If this view is correct, it might be useful to speculate on the reasons that serious composers fail (for the most part) to compose new music that has broad appeal.


I agree, exactly the point of some of my recent posts. I was simply trying to approach the point less directly, in the hopes of encouraging some real soul searching among the avant-guarde crew. I firmly believe that the avant-guarde is slowly destroying the art music community.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Truckload said:


> I firmly believe that the avant-guarde is slowly destroying the art music community.


Well, I'd miss the avant-garde music more than I'd miss the art music community.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> Well, I'd miss the avant-garde music more than I'd miss the art music community.


I think that should be capitalized: Art Music Community. That way it can better support _doyens_.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

jani said:


> This is why we need great new tonal composers! ( Give me links if you know great new tonal composers)


Almost all of the classical music premiered these days by popular composers like Glass, Higdon, Adams, Part, and so forth is tonal. Not common practice tonal, but tonal. And the same goes for years past as well. Name a year or two in which there were no new tonal pieces of concert music that have been recorded, at least once or twice.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Adagietto said:


> Source: Nielsen - Some statistics.
> 
> Of the 376 million music units sold in 2012, Classical Music sold 7.5 million.


Arghhh! Not 3% but 2*%!*


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

KenOC said:


> My view: These is, as always, a desire for new "serious" music. The old repertoire is largely worn out in people's ears; classical music will be a museum (if it isn't already) without fresh repertoire.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is little fresh repertoire being written that people by and large want to hear. How much new music has entered the repertoire in the last half-century? So audiences are shrinking, as seen not only in music sales but in concert attendance.
> 
> If this view is correct, it might be useful to speculate on the reasons that serious composers fail (for the most part) to compose new music that has broad appeal.


The old repertoire can hardly be worn out if a lot of people haven't heard it. I've just been answering a thread by a member who obviously doesn't know much about Saint-Saens but wishes to. just look around this forum,also you don't have to be new I just admitted to not knowing Koechlin.
New serious music is too ghastly on the whole to make an impact on most people.
But on the other hand I've been listenig for at least one hundred years but there are still huge gaps in my knowledge


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

science said:


> Well, I'd miss the avant-garde music more than I'd miss the art music community.


What is the art music community,can anyone join ?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Why not? After all, it's mostly only the intellectual elite that listen to it, eh? If the percentage got up to 10, the eliteness would be sadly watered down, eh?
> 
> Hey, I live on less than $2K per month; classical music listening s the only elite thing I can afford.


I'm glad I'm a member of the elite--I don't think many people new that, but if you're here I suppose it must be!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

moody said:


> What is the art music community,can anyone join ?


They are the people getting destroyed by avant garde music. I suppose membership is self-imposed, so you can join or leave as you like.

Be careful, though - it looks like HillTroll's trying to raise funds to support some doyens. I haven't met any doyens, so I can't tell how worthy a cause that is.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'd imagine the UK breakdown would look different in places - there would be very little Latin and Christian/gospel music and comparatively little Country sold here (perhaps generally speaking UK Folk music sales would help to lessen the Country shortfall), but something tells me that the percentage for classical would still be about the same. I was surprised with the low jazz sales figure, bearing in mind it all started there.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

presto said:


> Classical music lovers are far fewer but their appreciation goes to a much deeper level.
> While a huge amount more will be buying more popular music, I wonder how many will actually be listening to it to the same depth!


What depth,that's the question--does it have depth?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

science said:


> They are the people getting destroyed by avant garde music. I suppose membership is self-imposed, so you can join or leave as you like.
> 
> Be careful, though - it looks like HillTroll's trying to raise funds to support some doyens. I haven't met any doyens, so I can't tell how worthy a cause that is.


Actually I'm a doyen but i don't put it about too much.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

moody said:


> Actually I'm a doyen but i don't put it about too much.


Were I you, I would. I'd be all like, "Hi, I'm science, and I'm a doyen."


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

science said:


> Were I you, I would. I'd be all like, "Hi, I'm science, and I'm a doyen."


I wish,but as everyone knows I tend to be somewhat shy.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

All music is fringe these days, there is no mainstream centre. The music industry has diversified, particularly as people are less likely to receive their daily musical dose from a local radio station. Those statistics show the most popular area is still only a quarter of the market. The confusingly named "Alternative" is a left-over from a time when there was a mainstream to be alternative from. There is far more fringe listening than classical as most people know something of classical composers or works.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Here's some data for world sales. I don't know what is included in sales, but hopefully they include CDs, Vinyl, downloads (purchased), etc. Classical music sales were 5.5% of total sales in 2009 (a depressed year). In 2000 sales were 6.5% of the total. I don't know if there is a continuing trend down for classical music through 2012. I also don't know what is included in the "other" category.


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## jtbell (Oct 4, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I've seen estimates that classical music makes up about 3% of total recorded music sales.


As far as I can recall, the percentage has been in that ballpark for decades, going back to the early 1990s at least, and probably earlier.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I’d love Classical Music and Arts in general to be more mainstream without being compromised.
People are fobbed off with such poor and trivial entertainment.
But unfortunately the Arts have become a class thing and people are automatically put off by it’s elitist persona.
It’s a shame it’s like this, I don’t know the answer!


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> I'd imagine the UK breakdown would look different in places - there would be very little Latin and Christian/gospel music and comparatively little Country sold here (perhaps generally speaking UK Folk music sales would help to lessen the Country shortfall), but something tells me that the percentage for classical would still be about the same. I was surprised with the low jazz sales figure, bearing in mind it all started there.


I would like to see the numbers for the UK and the commonwealth. There is a very large and enthusiastic brass band community that I surmise would also be interested in traditional classical music. My unsupported guess is that support for art music is much higher in the UK than in the USA.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Weston said:


> Hard to believe soundtrack albums outsell classical by that much. Much of it might be considered classical by a stretch. Actually much of it is rehashed classical.


I'd venture to say it's so because it comes with attached visuals, which are palatable to all. So maybe what classical music needs is better soundtrack composers  or the avant-garde needs to muscle its way into the soundtrack market = everybody happy!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> Hard to believe soundtrack albums outsell classical by that much. Much of it might be considered classical by a stretch. Actually much of it is rehashed classical.


You have to remember that the bestselling soundtrack albums are not instrumental at all. They're compilations of songs from popular artists or song albums affiliated with musicals and the like. I'd imagine that film score listeners are a very small minority.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> I'd venture to say it's so because it comes with attached visuals, which are palatable to all. So maybe what classical music needs is better soundtrack composers  or the avant-garde needs to muscle its way into the soundtrack market = everybody happy!


Avant Garde music is used in many horror films,you just listen next time you watch one.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

moody said:


> Avant Garde music is used in many horror films,you just listen next time you watch one.


It is also used quite often as background music to nature documentaries. Everytime I watch a Sir David Attenborough series, I noticed that. It worked very well!


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

It's really quite simple, most people don't have time left over to listen to classical music with all of the new albums Lady Gaga and Kanye are putting out!

In more seriousness, I think a big part of it is that nowadays, most people don't want to listen to serious music (and most classical music, even the light stuff, is more on the serious side). Most people just listen to things that they can, and I quote, shake their booties to. Not to mention there is a bit of a stigma against classical as has been mentioned on this site before...I know if I let my friends know I listen to it, they'd make me out to be an elitist lol.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> It is also used quite often as background music to nature documentaries. Everytime I watch a Sir David Attenborough series, I noticed that. It worked very well!


oh, you mean like ambient? I thought that was part of the realm of popular music...

you know what is weird, though? I know a lot of people who don't willingly listen to music _at all_. If something comes on the radio they will, but they won't actually go out of their way to search for music. Let alone that many people seem stuck with whatever they were listening to in 9th grade or thereabouts.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

deggial said:


> I'd venture to say it's so because it comes with attached visuals, which are palatable to all.


Tonal classical music that comes with attached visuals!





Atonal classical music that comes with attached visuals!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

presto said:


> I'd love Classical Music and Arts in general to be more mainstream without being compromised.
> People are fobbed off with such poor and trivial entertainment.
> But unfortunately the Arts have become a class thing and people are automatically put off by it's elitist persona.
> It's a shame it's like this, I don't know the answer!


But what is wrong with a bit of elitism? I would think a lot of people who cannot afford the more expensive ways of being "elitist" and sophisticated, would embrace classical music in order to get in touch with ""high culture" and come across as more classy. I am not talking about pretending to enjoy it of course, but about really getting into it. It could at least prove useful for making an impression on girls, you know


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

deggial said:


> oh, you mean like ambient? I thought that was part of the realm of popular music...
> 
> you know what is weird, though? I know a lot of people who don't willingly listen to music _at all_. If something comes on the radio they will, but they won't actually go out of their way to search for music. Let alone that many people seem stuck with whatever they were listening to in 9th grade or thereabouts.


No, not ambient music. I have watched many segments where they used 12-tone music, for example. I just randomly picked this one, go to 31:30 say and listen carefully to the subtle music in the background.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Maybe we can market this. "We were fringe before fringe was cool."


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Indeed, the fringe only became significant in the 60s.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

KenOC said:


> My view: These is, as always, a desire for new "serious" music. The old repertoire is largely worn out in people's ears; classical music will be a museum (if it isn't already) without fresh repertoire.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is little fresh repertoire being written that people by and large want to hear. How much new music has entered the repertoire in the last half-century? So audiences are shrinking, as seen not only in music sales but in concert attendance.
> 
> If this view is correct, it might be useful to speculate on the reasons that serious composers fail (for the most part) to compose new music that has broad appeal.


 You have to realize that the vast majority of all the classical music ever written has been forgotten, usually for a good reason . I don't think the present day is any different in this respect . In the field of opera alone, it's been estimated that approximately 40,000 operas have been written since the early 17th century .
How many are performed today ? But you never know when any of them might be revived . 
Despite what so many critics and musicologists claim, there is no lack of new music today . Most of it will be quicly forgotten just as in the past . But you never know. . . .


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> But what is wrong with a bit of elitism? I would think a lot of people who cannot afford the more expensive ways of being "elitist" and sophisticated, would embrace classical music in order to get in touch with ""high culture" and come across as more classy. I am not talking about pretending to enjoy it of course, but about really getting into it. It could at least prove useful for making an impression on girls, you know


I would not think that it would make too much impression on girls.
Also the last thing you need to do is act in an elitest manner toward your friends and acquaintances
On the other hand,if they are persuaded to think your are an elite individual because you listen to classiclal music-- fine.
Personally I find this all rather far fetched.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> But what is wrong with a bit of elitism? I would think a lot of people who cannot afford the more expensive ways of being "elitist" and sophisticated, would embrace classical music in order to get in touch with ""high culture" and come across as more classy. I am not talking about pretending to enjoy it of course, but about really getting into it. It could at least prove useful for making an impression on girls, you know


You love classical music because you have to - you can't one day wake up and decide to get into classical music. I have had classical music as my main interest and in my veins since about the age of eight and over the years it has sustained me through many events. All of this has nothing to do with trying to be 'elite or belong to some sort of high culture, it is just part of me I can never change. I find most lovers of classical music seem to keep their love fairly private, and I can tell you it has never made an impression on a girl; but if you know one it would - please let me know!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Arghhh! Not 3% but 2*%!*


Same as its been for one thousand years.

Yes, it is not for everybody.

Yes, 2% de facto is a minority or 'elite.'

Yes, that means even the most popular / populist of the classical composers is still operating within a minority elite sphere.

Yes, none of this should be surprising to anyone.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I've seen estimates that classical music makes up about 3% of total recorded music sales. Today I saw this from a correspondent in Europe: "I just read in today's news paper that the percentage of classical music listening here in Denmark is 2.6 % of the total amount of hours listening."
> 
> Is this real? Can the audience for classical music really be as small as these numbers suggest?


I think if you do the maths that is around the percentage in most places, but doing a very rough calculation of radio listeners here (Britain) it would be more than in Denmark, but when they say 'hours listening,' do they mean sitting down with their CD collection, or switching the radio on. Also, I'm not sure if recorded music sales means CDs only, not taking into account streaming and downloads which many classical music lovers I know have switched to.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Yes, 2% de facto is a minority or 'elite.'


OMG! That means that listeners of new age music, at 0.5%, are four times as elite as we are!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

KenOC said:


> OMG! That means that listeners of new age music, at 0.5%, are four times as elite as we are!


Fortunately, I have several CDs and cassettes of New Age (note the caps) music. I sometimes play one when 'resting my eyes' of an afternoon. I estimate a ratio of about 137 to 3 - classical to New Age listening. This makes me just slightly more elite than you are.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Fortunately, I have several CDs and cassettes of New Age (note the caps) music. I sometimes play one when 'resting my eyes' of an afternoon. I estimate a ratio of about 137 to 3 - classical to New Age listening. This makes me just slightly more elite than you are.


I vigorously genuflect to your eliteness. But wait a moment -- I listen to no new age at all, so that puts me at zero. Infinitely elite!


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## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

Considering that much of the recorded classical music on sale is combinations of the same repetoire it's hardly surprising. How many recordings of Beethoven's 5 does a household actually need? It's not like new classical music gets the same treatment as rock & pop music. With rock and pop it's release music - release video and take it around the world on tour. With classical it's release music, it might get played on the radio, there's no video and no tour beyond a couple of concerts somewhere, so quite how classical music fans are supposed to work out what's new and exciting is anyone's guess. 

Perhaps someone should form a "New classical music orchestra". It plays nothing but classical music written in the last ten years. They put together a couple of shows and take the music around the concert halls of the world. Then we might actually get somewhere.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

AlexD said:


> Considering that much of the recorded classical music on sale is combinations of the same repetoire it's hardly surprising. How many recordings of Beethoven's 5 does a household actually need? It's not like new classical music gets the same treatment as rock & pop music. With rock and pop it's release music - release video and take it around the world on tour. With classical it's release music, it might get played on the radio, there's no video and no tour beyond a couple of concerts somewhere, so quite how classical music fans are supposed to work out what's new and exciting is anyone's guess.
> 
> Perhaps someone should form a "New classical music orchestra". It plays nothing but classical music written in the last ten years. They put together a couple of shows and take the music around the concert halls of the world. Then we might actually get somewhere.


You need to contact _some guy_, and organize an orchestra. _some guy_ has the music. "We need less talk, and more action!"


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

AlexD said:


> Perhaps someone should form a "New classical music orchestra". It plays nothing but classical music written in the last ten years. They put together a couple of shows and take the music around the concert halls of the world. Then we might actually get somewhere.


There may be some...ah...practical problems with this. Which is probably why it hasn't happened.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

AlexD said:


> Perhaps someone should form a "New classical music orchestra". It plays nothing but classical music written in the last ten years. They put together a couple of shows and take the music around the concert halls of the world. Then we might actually get somewhere.


Already done. They win Grammys and everything
http://www.eighthblackbird.org/
(and this group can't possibly be the only one)


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## TheWimp (Mar 18, 2012)

If there joined more people into the classicosphere then the elevated smugness level would boost Vivaldi to heights not seen before. We would drown in a deluge of folksy, simple tunes performed by people who would insist they be called "songs" *shudder*. So I'd rather remain an elitist with my Shostakovich and Bartok


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

jani said:


> This is why we need great new tonal composers! ( Give me links if you know great new tonal composers)


That 3% is not a shrinking number compare to percent of population who consumed classical music in the past -- it is just about the same percent as it has always been.

So, not shrinking, but holding, and the agenda / request for 'more tonal composers' is moot. Besides, there are many doing their work right now.


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## BeverlyAnne (Feb 2, 2013)

I like to think like great literature-Dickens, Shakespeare, etc-great-read classical-will always have a place, even if it is a small niche. As long as we have supporters like PBS and their Great Performances to help showcase classical to a wider audience and to newer, younger generations, I think there is hope. Especially with contemporary artists like The Tenors and Andre Rieu who help appeal to a broader base.

The adage goes everything old is new again. If classical could get more support from the commercial radio station community and be more readily available, I really do think that would help.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BeverlyAnne said:


> If classical could get more support from the commercial radio station community and be more readily available, I really do think that would help.


There used to be that rare thing, a commercial classical FM station, in LA, a very big market. It was KMZT. It lost money for its entire life; most of its commercials were for funeral homes... Finally it folded. I suspect that "support" from the commercial radio community, at least in this form, won't be forthcoming.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

KenOC said:


> There used to be that rare thing, a commercial classical FM station, in LA, a very big market. It was KMZT. It lost money for its entire life; most of its commercials were for funeral homes... Finally it folded. I suspect that "support" from the commercial radio community, at least in this form, won't be forthcoming.


What's the current status of WQXR? Back in the early 50s it was my nighttime AM station - too far away to get the FM.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> What's the current status of WQXR? Back in the early 50s it was my nighttime AM station - too far away to get the FM.


WQXR appears to be a Public Radio FM classical music station at 105.9 in New York. AM has been sold to Radio Disney...

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

classical isn't a genre. It may be fringe, but not a genre.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> classical isn't a genre. It may be fringe, but not a genre.


Maybe not. But what is it?


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2013)

[Edit: I had responded to KenOC's post--always a questionable move--before I noticed hreichgott's contribution. And yes, there are more than these four. Dozens more.]



KenOC said:


> There may be some...ah...practical problems with this. Which is probably why it hasn't happened.


It's already happened.

Petr Kotik, S.E.M. Ensemble

for one.

Iancu Dumitrescu, Hyperion Ensemble

for two.

Ensemble Modern

for three.

There are plenty of new music ensembles, ensembles which play only recent music. And tour. Maybe not exclusively with music of the last ten years, but pretty close to that. All very much focussed on premieres, for sure.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

some guy said:


> t's already happened.
> 
> Petr Kotik, S.E.M. Ensemblefor one.
> 
> ...


Interesting and promising. Touring costs a lot of money. Do you know where the revenues come from? Ticket sales?


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2013)

science said:


> We're kickin' New Age's butt!


If any new age work becomes popular, it gets surreptitiously reclassified as classical. Those new-agers are too spaced-out to notice.

Now if we could just tap into some of that soundtrack market share!!


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Interesting and promising. Touring costs a lot of money. Do you know where the revenues come from? Ticket sales?


I'm sure they come straight out of your pocket. They come to you at night, you know, and raid your wallet. Are you just now finding this out?:lol:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> Maybe we can market this. "We were fringe before fringe was cool."


'when fringe was cool'


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> classical isn't a genre. It may be fringe, but not a genre.


classical, small 'c' = generic (western culture) classical music. 
The historic eras denote time period, and to a degree, musical style from same. 
_(Don't blame me for any of this, it was a bunch of folk in the later 1800's who sat down and assigned all those terms to the eras, etc. Bach or Rameau would have been hearing real 'news' if they were told they were Baroque composers!)_

Yep, it is a genre -- like 'popular music' is a global genre term for the mass of variety under that umbrella term ['popular' supposedly includes Jazz, which I personally think is a case apart.]

Genre within 'classical,' solo instrument, chamber music, orchestral (symphonic - concertante) / vocal, acappella / choral work.

_*It's all about which bin they put it in at the bricks 'n' mortar strores *_


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

BeverlyAnne said:


> I If classical could get more support from the commercial radio station community and be more readily available, I really do think that would help.


Not going to happen. A Bruckner symphony goes for at least an hour. What are you going to do - shove 5 minutes of ads between the adagio and the scherzo?

If what we understand as "classical music" faces a threat, it's the ever increasing proportion of the population who are incapable of doing something for more than three minutes at a time... So much of day to day culture is chopped into small bits; perhaps only the cinema is holding out, although there's a lot of cookie-cutter, lowest-common-denominator stuff being churned out there too.
GG


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

Stargazer said:


> It's really quite simple, most people don't have time left over to listen to classical music with all of the new albums Lady Gaga and Kanye are putting out!
> 
> In more seriousness, I think a big part of it is that nowadays, most people don't want to listen to serious music (and most classical music, even the light stuff, is more on the serious side). Most people just listen to things that they can, and I quote, shake their booties to. Not to mention there is a bit of a stigma against classical as has been mentioned on this site before...I know if I let my friends know I listen to it, they'd make me out to be an elitist lol.


You're right in that post, I remember someone saying to me "Classical Music just doesn't have that bass!"
Probably meaning it hasn't got a strong electric bass line and heavy drum beat.
The sound world is hard for a lot of people to adjust to if they've only ever listened to Pop music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GraemeG said:


> Not going to happen. A Bruckner symphony goes for at least an hour. What are you going to do - shove 5 minutes of ads between the adagio and the scherzo?


Same reason, I think, that soccer has never caught hold here as a televised sport.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> 'when fringe was cool'
> View attachment 12747
> View attachment 12748


Is that a 'two-horse open shay'?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

BeverlyAnne said:


> I like to think like great literature-Dickens, Shakespeare, etc-great-read classical-will always have a place, even if it is a small niche. As long as we have supporters like PBS and their Great Performances to help showcase classical to a wider audience and to newer, younger generations, I think there is hope. Especially with contemporary artists like The Tenors and Andre Rieu who help appeal to a broader base.
> 
> The adage goes everything old is new again. If classical could get more support from the commercial radio station community and be more readily available, I really do think that would help.


We have a huge commercial station in the UK,Classic FM. They play tbe type of people you mention often---i'm afraid. But they certainly make plenty of money.


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## Picea (Jan 23, 2013)

In my humble, yet elite, opinion, I think that classical music will always be a "fringe genre." Just as the ability to compose great music is a God given gift, I think that the ability to appreciate great music is a gift. I think that it is a small percentage of people who have the ability to really enjoy and understand classical music. Over the years, I have given many of my friends classical CDs and I have played portions of some of my favorite works on the stereo for them in the hope of sparking an interest in classical music. The vast majority have no interest. They just can't relate. Most people can't. Be thankful that you can.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

jani said:


> The reason why rap music is so popular is that the rappers are able to handle "the press game" very well, they are having these "beefs" with each other and keep throwing back insults on the press and even on their own songs.
> That can be very entertaining.
> Also you don't need a long attention span for rap, even 50 cent said that " I know that my audience doesn't have a long attention span" Also their music is filled with Hooks etc...


All true. But the reason for high sales numbers is do to teenage and 20-something white boys. They have their parent's disposable income.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

davinci said:


> All true. But the reason for high sales numbers is do to teenage and 20-something white boys. They have their parent's disposable income.


Not to mention Jobseekers Allowance. 
:devil:


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

Yes, which is why when I define "elitist" as something that involves financial power, then I don't see classical music as such, at least in terms of the music industry. If any, classical music is marginalized.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

probably because no one listens to it


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ralfy said:


> Yes, which is why when I define "elitist" as something that involves financial power, then I don't see classical music as such, at least in terms of the music industry. If any, classical music is marginalized.


It does not just cover 'wealth.'

e·lite 
/iˈlēt/
Noun

A group of people considered to be *the best *in _a particular society or category_, esp. because of their 
1.) power 
2.)* talent*
3.) wealth.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> It does not just cover 'wealth.'
> 
> e·lite
> /iˈlēt/
> ...


You left out _*taste*_, _*discernment*_, *nobility of heart*, and _*intelligence*_. And maybe others, too.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

KenOC said:


> You left out _*taste*_, _*discernment*_, *nobility of heart*, and _*intelligence*_. And maybe others, too.


That's me all over !


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

moody said:


> That's me all over !


'...nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility...'

:lol:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> '...nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility...'
> 
> :lol:


Never do humility,it gets you nowhere but maybe to Heaven.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

davinci said:


> All true. But the reason for high sales numbers is do to teenage and 20-something white boys. They have their parent's disposable income.


Ah so that's what I should be spending their money on! Here's me getting Tchaikovsky and Handel...


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

I wonder how much Classical music has been illegally downloaded.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

PetrB said:


> 'when fringe was cool'
> View attachment 12747
> View attachment 12748


"Chicks and ducks and geese gonna scurry..."


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

PetrB said:


> It does not just cover 'wealth.'
> 
> e·lite
> /iˈlēt/
> ...


I know. It's just that those who talk about classical music being elitist tend to talk about No. 2. The bad news is that it's really No. 3 that critical. In fact, it's No. 3 that allows for No. 1 and pays for No. 2.


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