# What makes an operetta an operetta?



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

It's a bit of a derogatory term and I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable than myself can say why something like _Orphee aux Enfers_ gets classed as an operetta. I've heard from some that it's due to the spoken "recitative", but that is shared by Mozart's German operas and, say, _La Fille du Regiment_, but the former are considered singspiel operas and the latter gets classed safely as bel canto and avoids the less flattering operetta term. Is it complexity? Admittedly, _Orphee aux Enfers_ is primarily arias and duets, but there's at least one quartet I can think of -- though, to be fair, there aren't any intricate harmonies taking place in it.

So, what's the deal?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

The spoken dialogue is one of the elements but not the only one (since like you said, Singspiel and Opéra Comique also use spoken dialogue). It's also the subject matter - often burlesque, satirical, light, with no serious stuff like murders and suicides etc. - the light uplifting music, the duration (usually relatively short). Of course there are works that border more than one genre and are hard to classify, but usually one knows relatively easily that an opera is an opera and an operetta is an operetta.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Isn't it that operetta is sort of in between a musical and opera?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I suppose operetta is the accepted catch-all term to describe that kind of work - different countries in the 19th and early 20th century seem to have various designations for essentially the same thing.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I don't know of any operetta that _doesn't_ have spoken dialogue, I also think they are all comic in tone. It can't be said that they always have a happy ending due to Yeoman of the Guard, though. Singspiel, Opera Comique and Ballard Opera were all ancestors of operetta and perhaps could be termed early operetta.

It's interesting because some G&S fans can be terribly sniffy about the term operetta because Sullivan and Gilbert quite often referred to their works as comic operas, but they are most definitely operettas.

Whilst some works which we call operas would also fall into this category I think operetta is best defined as a light, comic musical entertainment with spoken dialogue. Although you could also prescribe a date range (mid 19th century to mid 20th - up to the 70s for Russia) that would then rule out the earlier forms that are now considered opera.

N.


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## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

The "-etta" suffix is also, I believe, a diminutive, which (at least, to me) suggests that an "operetta" is a smaller and more frivolous version of what might be considered a proper opera.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> It's interesting because some G&S fans can be terribly sniffy about the term operetta because Sullivan and Gilbert quite often referred to their works as comic operas, but they are most definitely operettas.
> 
> N.


... and of course the company which used to perform exclusively Gilbert and Sullivan's Savoy _Operas_ was known as the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I don't know of any operetta that _doesn't_ have spoken dialogue, *I also think they are all comic in tone. *It can't be said that they always have a happy ending due to Yeoman of the Guard, though. Singspiel, Opera Comique and Ballard Opera were all ancestors of operetta and perhaps could be termed early operetta.
> 
> It's interesting because some G&S fans can be terribly sniffy about the term operetta because Sullivan and Gilbert quite often referred to their works as comic operas, but they are most definitely operettas.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. _Sweeney Todd_? Or don't you consider that an operetta?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

jegreenwood said:


> Hmmm. _Sweeney Todd_? Or don't you consider that an operetta?


Hmmm, I think some might consider Sweeney Todd comic.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

jegreenwood said:


> Hmmm. _Sweeney Todd_? Or don't you consider that an operetta?


I would have said it is a musical, but I'm no expert!

N.

P.S. Wiki says: "Depending on how and where the show is presented, it is sometimes considered an opera. Sondheim himself has described the piece as a "black operetta", and indeed, only about 20% of the show is spoken; the rest is sung-through.

This raises an interesting question, who decides whether something is an opera, operetta or musical?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

In Germany at least, the difference between the opera and the Operette was the singers. The first demanded real, skillful singers. The second only actors they could sing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Dimace said:


> In Germany at least, the difference between the opera and the Operette was the singers. The first demanded real, skillful singers. The second only actors they could sing.


However how wonderful it sounds when sung by "real, skilful" singers, as in many of the commercial recordings. Think of people like Schwarzkopf, Gedda, Streich, Gueden, Waechter, Rothenberger, Wunderlich. One should also note that Lehar wrote *Das Land des Lachelns* for the wonderful tenor, Richard Tauber, and a lot of the music is very hard to sing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dimace said:


> In Germany at least, the difference between the opera and the Operette was the singers. The first demanded real, skillful singers. The second only actors they could sing.


This may be true of many of the comic or "character" roles, but in the classic German/Austro-Hungarian operettas of Strauss, Millocker, Lehar, Kalman, et al., the romantic leads (the leads are always romantic!) have to be taken by fully trained voices in order to make their proper effect. Operetta recordings from the "golden age" (basically the 1950s and earlier) have often impressed me with wonderful singers I've never heard of, some of whom specialized in operetta. One of my favorites is the enchanting Hungarian soprano Sari Barabas:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> This may be true of many of the comic or "character" roles, but in the classic German/Austro-Hungarian operettas of Strauss, Millocker, Lehar, Kalman, et al., the romantic leads (the leads are always romantic!) have to be taken by fully trained voices in order to make their proper effect. Operetta recordings from the "golden age" (basically the 1950s and earlier) have often impressed me with wonderful singers I've never heard of, some of whom specialized in operetta. One of my favorites is the enchanting Hungarian soprano Sari Barabas:


Wonderful! But now I am wanting to see a live video of her singing, not just a photograph prop for a sound track, and lo and behold, they have one and it is a beauty, except it does not seem to be the same lady. Hair is totally different color. Voice different. Did this person mistake who they were posting? Or am I just not comprehending?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Wonderful! But now I am wanting to see a live video of her singing, not just a photograph prop for a sound track, and lo and behold, they have one and it is a beauty, except it does not seem to be the same lady. Hair is totally different color. Voice different. Did this person mistake who they were posting? Or am I just not comprehending?


That's her. ............


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> That's her. ............


A bit older perhaps, but grey? hair. Or maybe it was dyed in the album cover of your link.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> A bit older perhaps, but grey? hair. Or maybe it was dyed in the album cover of your link.


Hey, it's theater. It doesn't have to be your own hair.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Is Der Wildschütz (Lortzing) an opera or an operetta?

I discovered it in a German opera CD set that I have in my collection. Now listening to it on You Tube and loving it. It sure sounds like operetta to me.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Wonderful! But now I am wanting to see a live video of her singing, not just a photograph prop for a sound track, and lo and behold, they have one and it is a beauty, except it does not seem to be the same lady. Hair is totally different color. Voice different. Did this person mistake who they were posting? Or am I just not comprehending?


I think you'll find that the album sleeve is just a generic one for an album of operetta arias. I'm pretty sure we are not looking at Sari Barabas here but a model dressed for a part in a Lehar or similar operetta.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Hey, it's theater. It doesn't have to be your own hair.


Or even the same person!


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