# Uncommon key signatures



## pcnog11

What is the most uncommon key signatures that you have seen? What was the piece? By whom. I once saw a piece with E# minor, it was quite weird. Forgot what piece.


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## athrun200

pcnog11 said:


> What is the most uncommon key signatures that you have seen? What was the piece? By whom. I once saw a piece with E# minor, it was quite weird. Forgot what piece.


Shouldn't E# minor be same as F minor (4 flats)?

If it is really E# minor, then there will be 8 sharps (double sharp for the F) which would be truly strange. 
I have never seen pieces with such a strange key signature and I am also curious to know more.


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## Taggart

See http://www.talkclassical.com/34002-obscure-key-signatures-pieces.html


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## pcnog11

athrun200 said:


> Shouldn't E# minor be same as F minor (4 flats)?
> 
> If it is really E# minor, then there will be 8 sharps (double sharp for the F) which would be truly strange.
> I have never seen pieces with such a strange key signature and I am also curious to know more.


Cannot find the piece. I rather have F minor any day!


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## Bettina

pcnog11 said:


> Cannot find the piece. I rather have F minor any day!


Speaking of uncommon key signatures, this topic reminds me of an April Fools' joke that I played on my piano students last year. I told them that they had to learn the scale of B-sharp major! :lol:


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## KenOC

pcnog11 said:


> Cannot find the piece. I rather have F minor any day!


I'll take F minor too! The Serioso Quartet alone makes it worthwhile.


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## hpowders

When I played clarinet, the studies they threw at me all seemed to have a million sharps or flats.

I could have screwed my garlic breath teacher by reaching for an A clarinet instead of my standard B Flat clarinet and transposed to easier keys....but I didn't have one.


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## Xinver

When using exotic scales, key signatures are really odd.
I've written many of them. Alternatively, no key signature is written, and all the accidentals must be present.


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## Czech composer




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## 19thCSoul

Are we only discussing unusual key signatures representing standard diatonic scales (like the E#/F example)? As long as the scale is diatonic, the only difference between common and less common ones (tonic aside) is the number of accidentals. For most performers, less is more when it comes to accidentals. 

What I find interesting are the unusual keys that sometimes pop up in classical, avant-garde and folk music. Pentatonic, Hexatonic, Octatonic, double harmonic (Byzantine), the universe of ragas used in Indian classical music, and more  

I was humming this the other day: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. (C major). Then I got bored and changed the B to a Bb, giving me C mixolydian, and finally I flattened the A too, ending up with something like this: C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C. You might call this a mixolydian flat 6 (sounds exotic/scary, I know) but wait a second... isn't it just the V of f melodic minor? 

You can conclude several things from the above. 1. I have weird hobbies. 2. As long as you're working within the standard modes, there's always a way to rewrite and simplify the music to make it easier to learn and play. I wish more contemporary composers (and students of composition) would heed this basic professional courtesy  

Sorry for hijacking this thread. You can have it back now


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## Musica Enchiriadis

Bartok, 14 bagatelles, op. 16

4 flats // 4 sharps ! chromatic polymodality


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## millionrainbows

http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1022-key-signatures.html


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## Kjetil Heggelund

ab-minor here  1st mvt. of the fantastic Iberia by Albeniz.


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## Bettina

Speaking of A-flat minor, Beethoven notates this key with six flats instead of seven in the "Arioso dolente" section of Op. 110. Using what basically amounts to a "Dorian" key signature, he omits the F-flat and writes it in as an accidental as needed. 

I wonder why he chose to do this. He used seven flats for the Funeral March in Op. 26, so he obviously had no objection to a seven-flat key signature. So why the use of six flats instead of seven in this case? Is it to call particular attention to the sixth scale degree as a prominent melodic element? Or was it simply an oversight? No one will ever know for sure (unless a seance can be arranged...) but I would welcome any speculation on the topic!


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## millionrainbows

Bettina said:


> Speaking of A-flat minor, Beethoven notates this key with six flats instead of seven in the "Arioso dolente" section of Op. 110. Using what basically amounts to a "Dorian" key signature, he omits the F-flat and writes it in as an accidental as needed.


Well, the Ab Dorian mode has a raised sixth degree: Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-*F*-Gb-Ab, so it makes sense to use a Gb major key signature.



> I wonder why he chose to do this. He used seven flats for the Funeral March in Op. 26, so he obviously had no objection to a seven-flat key signature. So why the use of six flats instead of seven in this case? Is it to call particular attention to the sixth scale degree as a prominent melodic element? Or was it simply an oversight? No one will ever know for sure (unless a seance can be arranged...) but I would welcome any speculation on the topic!


When chords are built on the steps of the mode or scale, the chords which result are different. In Dorian, the IV chord is major; in natural minor, the iv is minor.

After listening, I can't see any reason. It doesn't sound Dorian; it barely even goes to IV, it's mainly a lot of i-Vs.


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## Marko420

Concerning the original question, the above answers are good except for exotic scales. If we really want to be honest with the music of India in our western context, we should understand that when a raga is sung (even an exotic one such a A Namanaryani: A Bb C# D# E F G A) it is traditionally understood as distinct and crystalline, not with accidentals every time a non-C Major note appears.
This being said, irregular key signatures are not well regarded by the classical community and haven't sat well with me either, until recently..

My solution come from examining the arrangement of sharps or flats for the respective keys of C# major and Cb major. Each has 7 accidental written in the key, and quite simply put you could sub out any of the accidental for any other accidental.

So with the aforementioned exotic scale A namanaryani, as a key, I would have jotted in something like C# major with 7 accidental except the accidental would be; F natural, C#, G natural, D#, A natural, E natural, and finally Bb.

A slightly simpler example might be with this Dorian #4 scale A B C D# E F# G A. I would write this key as similar to E major with 4 accidentals; F# - C natural - G natural - D#. 

Hope this helps. 
Also, really only works for 7 note scales.


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## millionrainbows

There are three keys which "overlap" under two different names: B (Cb), F# (Gb), and C# (Db). The reason it goes no further has to do with the physical layout of the keyboard itself (there are two semitone steps in the letter sequence), and the subsequent "letter-naming" of notes which results. To be a diatonic scale, you must have seven different letter names. 

For example, there is no key of "Fb" because this is E, a sharp key; but if we named it anyway, we would get Fb-Gb-Ab-Bbb (you can't repeat A - there must be seven different letter names with no repeats), Cb-Db-Eb-Fb. This "repeating letter or double-flat" dilemma does not arise on the three "repeat" keys of B (Cb), F# (Gb), and C# (Db), because this is the "seven-letter limit".

In equal tempered tuning, both end points (F# and Gb) are identical, because all the "fifths" have been adjusted flat by 2 cents, to keep from "overshooting" the mark. Otherwise, instead of a closed circle which repeats from octave to octave, we would have an endless spiral, and an infinite number of different notes.


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## Marko420

"


millionrainbows said:


> Well, the Ab Dorian mode has a raised sixth degree: Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-*F*-Gb-Ab, so it makes sense to use a Gb major key signature.
> 
> When chords are built on the steps of the mode or scale, the chords which result are different. In Dorian, the IV chord is major; in natural minor, the iv is minor.
> 
> After listening, I can't see any reason. It doesn't sound Dorian; it barely even goes to IV, it's mainly a lot of i-Vs.


"

I imagine Beethoven's rational was that since the minor sixth degree is so emphasized in the piece, it too should be emphasized on the score with the accidental. Just a thought while looking at the score and listening.


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## Marko420

19thCSoul said:


> Are we only discussing unusual key signatures representing standard diatonic scales (like the E#/F example)? As long as the scale is diatonic, the only difference between common and less common ones (tonic aside) is the number of accidentals. For most performers, less is more when it comes to accidentals.
> 
> What I find interesting are the unusual keys that sometimes pop up in classical, avant-garde and folk music. Pentatonic, Hexatonic, Octatonic, double harmonic (Byzantine), the universe of ragas used in Indian classical music, and more
> 
> I was humming this the other day: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. (C major). Then I got bored and changed the B to a Bb, giving me C mixolydian, and finally I flattened the A too, ending up with something like this: C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C. You might call this a mixolydian flat 6 (sounds exotic/scary, I know) but wait a second... isn't it just the V of f melodic minor?
> 
> You can conclude several things from the above. 1. I have weird hobbies. 2. As long as you're working within the standard modes, there's always a way to rewrite and simplify the music to make it easier to learn and play. I wish more contemporary composers (and students of composition) would heed this basic professional courtesy
> 
> Sorry for hijacking this thread. You can have it back now


I would recommend checking out the wiki for Melakarta ragas, I'm sure you'll find it interesting/expansive


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## jalexis

In a cappella music you may find any key whatsoever, fluently mastered by even the most amateur choir. The human voice is equally easy to use in all keys.


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