# Scales



## Davzon

Hi all, hope all is well with everyone, just wondered what amount of time should be spent improving on scales, I have to admit I'm not so good with flat scales so should I just play them, or should I just play them a few times then moving through them in circle of fifth motion. C....G....D..etc.


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## Kazaman

It depends on how much time you have to spare. If your practice time is limited, focus on what you find most difficult.


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## Davzon

Just want to get better with each day, I practice alot, but mainly chords, I do normally just play all the many scales but there's alot of them. most of them are just common sense. cause alot of my time is spent on music theory, but I find is level of playing is nowhere near my level of understanding of theory, it's almost like they aint complety connected, my mind knows it but my hands don't seem to want to do it, if that makes sense.


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## Taggart

Davzon said:


> Just want to get better with each day, I practice a lot, but mainly chords, I do normally just play all the many scales but there's alot of them. most of them are just common sense. cause a lot of my time is spent on music theory, but I find is level of playing is nowhere near my level of understanding of theory, it's almost like they ain't completely connected, my mind knows it but my hands don't seem to want to do it, if that makes sense.


Certainly does! I know the feeling only too well. Scales are useful for a variety of reasons - the first one is that they educate the fingers. As you say, you know the theory now you need to put in the hours to translate that into the finger muscles.

The next thing is that they are good exercise for the fingers. The next thing is that they are fairly mindless. After a bit you don't need music so you can concentrate totally on dynamics and articulation.

My scales book gives the following suggestions:

. with hands separately as well as together
. in similar motion, two octaves apart
. with hands a fourth, fifth, seventh or ninth apart
. beginning on the highest note, descending and ascending
. beginning on any degree of the scale
. with hands crossed, either right over left or left over right
. in similar motion over three octaves, with notes grouped in threes
. in similar motion over four octaves, with notes grouped in fours
. with varied rhythmical groupings
. with swung rhythm
. in double thirds as broken thirds, in sixths as broken sixths etc.
. at various speeds with and without a metronome
. with varied dynamics
. with varied touch, such as staccato, legato, non legato and leggiero
. with mixed articulation
. with melodic minors in contrary motion

(Ruth Gerald intro to ABRSM Scales Manual)

The point is not to play scales mechanically but to play them musically and that will teach your fingers (and your mind and ears) a great deal.

Hope that helps.


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## PetrB

Of course concentrate on the ones which are for you less familiar / secure... or the ones you find are less often presented in the repertoire you are covering.

Taggert, in the post immediately above, has presented a replete list of practice approaches to keep both mind alert and musicality present.

Of course, whatever key / key areas any piece you are working on is always good


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## Davzon

Thanks everyone, I'll try everything to be honest half of the ideas never even entered my mind to do, so I can do all the stuff explained on the keys I find hard to do. mainly Eb major the only thing that bothers me is why do you have to start off on the second finger, why not just start off on the third being as, that's the one you use the when you come to the octave. I guess it's rather like The Db scale which can be said to be C sharp too which of cause are both right. anyway thanks


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## Kazaman

Davzon said:


> Thanks everyone, I'll try everything to be honest half of the ideas never even entered my mind to do, so I can do all the stuff explained on the keys I find hard to do. mainly Eb major the only thing that bothers me is why do you have to start off on the second finger, why not just start off on the third being as, that's the one you use the when you come to the octave. I guess it's rather like The Db scale which can be said to be C sharp too which of cause are both right. anyway thanks


You can start on the third finger if you wish, it's often taught both ways. I think you'll find the thumb tuck is easier with the second finger, though.


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## Davzon

ya, I did think it would but it keeps confusing me cause in my mind I'm thinking eb with third and Bb with the fourth but I guess the scales aren't apart of me yet, cause I have to be able to play them the same as breathing. without even having to think about them.


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## millionrainbows

> ...mainly Eb major the only thing that bothers me is why do you have to start off on the second finger, why not just start off on the third being as, that's the one you use the when you come to the octave.


If you want consistent logic, then use this rule:

In a black-key scale, if the second note is played by 1 (the thumb), start with finger 2 (index).


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## Kazaman

For fingering, focus on finger 4. You'll notice that in every scale, it is used only once per octave. Memorise the scale degree which uses finger 4 in each key, and you'll have a shortcut for remembering the fingering pattern for each scale.


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## millionrainbows

I think a good overall logic is that scale fingerings are designed to avoid placing the thumb on black keys.


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## hreichgott

Davzon said:


> my mind knows it but my hands don't seem to want to do it


Try scales, chords and arpeggios in only one key per day, many repetitions, maybe 5-10 minutes a day. Or maybe even one key per week at 5-10 minutes per day. Your hands will learn the patterns if you repeat the same ones in a focused way.


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## Davzon

Well I've been doing some of the things said on here, and it really makes a difference. The picking a key a day is far better too, cause to be honest there are far too many keys to give any one of them a good practice.. so is that book Ruth Gerald intro to ABRSM Scales Manual, worth getting.


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## Ravndal

If you are serious about it, i would suggest listen to hreichgott, but rather do it in two different keys everyday. That way you get trough the circle of fifth one time each week. Then it won't be long before you have them all memorized.

Monday: C Major/A Minor, both harmonic and melodic. Chords & Arpeggios.
Tuesday: G Major/E Minor, both harmonic and melodic. Chords & Arpeggios.

And so on every day.


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## Taggart

I recommend it because I'm doing ABRSM exams.

See the book on Amazon which also recommends this one. Maybe some of the piano teachers on the site can referee this.


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## Davzon

Well think doing two keys a day might be good to do, still better than doing all 12 keys...but the thing is with me if I play them too slow I make mistakes, but if I play them faster I'm ok very strange, but I guess it's one of the many bad habbits that I have, cause I'm not used to using a metterome, to be honest rhythm is one of my bigest weakness. that's one of the reasons being better at scales and hand inderpence would help me, have that Michel Nyman song the Piano in my head now, lol.. cause that uses alot of hand inderpence from what I know.. oh.. damn I seem to have gone on abit.. well anyway, yes I will just have to keep to that.


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## Ravndal

Then it just means that you have to practice them slow. The point is to not do mistakes in any speed.


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## Taggart

If you want hand independence, have a look at Bach's 2 part No 6 in E major.

This is quite nice because it has the score.


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## Davzon

so.. that book as alot of scales and chords? cause I want a book that tells me alot of them kinda like a Dictionary of chords and scales, like you would have for words.. It's just there are so many books out there it's too hard to pick one.


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## hreichgott

Davzon said:


> I want a book that tells me alot of them kinda like a Dictionary of chords and scales


Hanon / The Virtuoso Pianist.
I am not a fan of the exercises in Hanon, but the scale/chord/arpeggio fingerings are useful.

It's now in the public domain (free):
http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Virtuoso_Pianist_%28Hanon,_Charles-Louis%29
Scale, chord and arpeggio fingerings are in part 2.


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## Feathers

hreichgott said:


> Hanon / The Virtuoso Pianist.
> I am not a fan of the exercises in Hanon, but the scale/chord/arpeggio fingerings are useful.
> 
> It's now in the public domain (free):
> http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Virtuoso_Pianist_%28Hanon,_Charles-Louis%29
> Scale, chord and arpeggio fingerings are in part 2.


Yeah, Hanon's pretty good, just not for the neighbours. :lol:


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## Davzon

I've tried the Hanon's but I found them a bit easy but then saying that I've only been play a few of them not looked at all of them, but from what I see they are all based on one key, but I guess I can transpose them to other keys.. maybe I've improved better than what I thought I had. cause I started teaching myself touch typing to improve my words per minute maybe that helps in my finger strength in playing the keyboard lol.


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## Ravndal

Davzon said:


> *I've tried the Hanon's but I found them a bit easy* but then saying that I've only been play a few of them not looked at all of them, but from what I see they are all based on one key, but I guess I can transpose them to other keys.. maybe I've improved better than what I thought I had. cause I started teaching myself touch typing to improve my words per minute maybe that helps in my finger strength in playing the keyboard lol.


This is why you should stop what you are doing, and get a teacher who can explain and show you how to use the hanon exercises - and everything else.


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## Taggart

Feathers said:


> Yeah, Hanon's pretty good, just not for the neighbours. :lol:


Reminds me of this:


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## Taggart

Davzon said:


> I've tried the Hanon's but I found them a bit easy but then saying that I've only been play a few of them not looked at all of them, but from what I see they are all based on one key...





Ravndal said:


> This is why you should stop what you are doing, and get a teacher who can explain and show you how to use the hanon exercises - and everything else.


Totally agree with Ravndal. Individually, the Hanon are "easy". So are scales. The trick is to get them sounding musical. The other thing about the Hanon is that they are not meant to be played individually. The idea is to play (ideally) all 60 flat out as a 1 hour warm up! Have a look at this critique of Hanon.

I've mentioned it before and will repeat it again, Look at Bach's 2 and 3 part inventions and above all, find somebody to show you the techniques you need to develop.


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## Davzon

> This is why you should stop what you are doing, and get a teacher who can explain and show you how to use the hanon exercises


 Well yes there is that but at the moment I'm not in position to get a teacher cause of money problems but then why hasn't got money problems in todays world.


> Look at Bach's 2 and 3 part inventions


 ya I did look at that it's very challenging indeed maybe a bit out of my reach at the moment.


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## hreichgott

Davzon said:


> I've tried the Hanon's but I found them a bit easy but then saying that I've only been play a few of them not looked at all of them, but from what I see they are all based on one key, but I guess I can transpose them to other keys.. maybe I've improved better than what I thought I had. cause I started teaching myself touch typing to improve my words per minute maybe that helps in my finger strength in playing the keyboard lol.


I didn't recommend Hanon for the exercises, only for the scale/chord/arpeggio fingerings which you requested. Did you find them?


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## Davzon

Well no you didn't recommend the Hanon I think that was in my head at the time cause I was using them on a day to day basis for a while, mainly to strengthen my fingers.. Well I know the fingerings for arpeggios now, just need to get better with the left hand. I think with the scales I just used to rush through them and need to take my time and focus on the sound they make, well meaning modes cause most of them all sound the same to me, so if i just focus on playing them better than rather than rushing through them. The speed will come with time anyway. I am starting to write some instrumental songs, in a way to incorporate technique I learn.


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## worov

Everyone use different fingerings. Some people have preference over a fingering or the other. Always interesting to share some tips. 

Here are the fingerings when I play my ascending scales over two octaves. For descending scale, I use the reverse fingering (I'm not a native speaker, I'm not sure this is the correct word).

(RH means right hand. LH means left hand)

Major Scales :

C
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 54321 321 4321 321

G
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 321 321 4321 321 43

F
Rh: 1234 123 1234 1234
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

D
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 21 4321 321 4321 32

Bb
Rh: 4 123 1234 123 1234
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

A
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

Eb 
Rh: 3 1234 123 1234 123 
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

E
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 54321 321 4321 321

Ab
Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

B
Rh: 123 1234 123 1234 1
Lh: 1 321 4321 321 4321 

Db
Rh: 23 1234 123 1234 12
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

Gb(F#)
Rh: 234 123 1234 123 12
Lh: 4321 321 4321 321 42

Minor scales :

Am
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 321 321 4321 321 43

Em
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 54321 321 4321 321

Dm
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 54321 321 4321 321

Bm
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 1 321 4321 321 4321

Gm
Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

F#m
Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
Lh: 4321 321 4321 321 4

Cm
Rh: 234 123 1234 123 12
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

C#m
Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

Fm
Rh: 1234 123 1234 123 1
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

G#m
Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3

Bbm
Rh: 4 123 1234 123 1234
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

D#m
Rh: 3 1234 123 1234 123
Lh: 21 4321 321 4321 32


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## millionrainbows

Hey thanks, worov. I copied that for reference.


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## Novelette

Ravndal said:


> If you are serious about it, i would suggest listen to hreichgott, but rather do it in two different keys everyday. That way you get trough the circle of fifth one time each week. Then it won't be long before you have them all memorized.
> 
> Monday: C Major/A Minor, both harmonic and melodic. Chords & Arpeggios.
> Tuesday: G Major/E Minor, both harmonic and melodic. Chords & Arpeggios.
> 
> And so on every day.


This is how I worked on perfecting scales exactly. As I became more proficient at scales, I would alternate between one key scale, rising from I to I, then I would reach down a fourth and play the dominant key scale up an octave, whereupon I would reach down a fifth and play the next tonic key up, and so one. In so doing, I became far better at shifting scales with minimal interruption.

I began with D Major and A Major, up the piano and back down. In the keys that begin on a black key, it can be a bit tricky to do quickly, but I found that I made very quick gains in dexterity. I would choose two sets of keys [and associated dominants] and work on them for thirty minutes at least.


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## hreichgott

worov said:


> Everyone use different fingerings. Some people have preference over a fingering or the other. Always interesting to share some tips.
> 
> Here are the fingerings when I play my ascending scales over two octaves. For descending scale, I use the reverse fingering (I'm not a native speaker, I'm not sure this is the correct word).
> 
> (RH means right hand. LH means left hand)
> 
> Major Scales :
> 
> C
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 54321 321 4321 321
> 
> G
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 321 321 4321 321 43
> 
> F
> Rh: 1234 123 1234 1234
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> D
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 21 4321 321 4321 32
> 
> Bb
> Rh: 4 123 1234 123 1234
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> A
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432
> 
> Eb
> Rh: 3 1234 123 1234 123
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> E
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 54321 321 4321 321
> 
> Ab
> Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> B
> Rh: 123 1234 123 1234 1
> Lh: 1 321 4321 321 4321
> 
> Db
> Rh: 23 1234 123 1234 12
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> Gb(F#)
> Rh: 234 123 1234 123 12
> Lh: 4321 321 4321 321 42
> 
> Minor scales :
> 
> Am
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 321 321 4321 321 43
> 
> Em
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 54321 321 4321 321
> 
> Dm
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 54321 321 4321 321
> 
> Bm
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 1 321 4321 321 4321
> 
> Gm
> Rh: 123 1234 123 12345
> Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432
> 
> F#m
> Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
> Lh: 4321 321 4321 321 4
> 
> Cm
> Rh: 234 123 1234 123 12
> Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432
> 
> C#m
> Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> Fm
> Rh: 1234 123 1234 123 1
> Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432
> 
> G#m
> Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
> Lh: 321 4321 321 4321 3
> 
> Bbm
> Rh: 4 123 1234 123 1234
> Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432
> 
> D#m
> Rh: 3 1234 123 1234 123
> Lh: 21 4321 321 4321 32


Out of curiosity why LH starting 54321 in C and E major and D and E minor, but not D, F, A or G major, or A, G or C minor?
Seems like 21321 instead of 54321 just adds an unnecessary thumb crossing. But if there is some other advantage then why not use it in C major and D minor at least? (E maj and E min obviously you'd end up with 1 on the F#)


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## Ravndal

I always start with 123-1234-123-12345 on white keys, and 2 or 3 on black keys
same thing with left hand (except B major where i start with 4)


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## worov

Before you read my answer, bear in mind that I'm not a native speaker. I apologize for the grammar mistakes that you're about to read.



> Out of curiosity why LH starting 54321 in C and E major and D and E minor, but not D, F, A or G major, or A, G or C minor?
> Seems like 21321 instead of 54321 just adds an unnecessary thumb crossing. But if there is some other advantage then why not use it in C major and D minor at least? (E maj and E min obviously you'd end up with 1 on the F#)


Thank you for your question. First of all, before deciding which finger to use, let's have a look at our fingers.

Humans are have several kinds of fingers. You have short fingers (1-5) and long fingers (2-3-4). Have a look at your hand to compare their size. You'll see that the 2nd is at least twice longer as the thumb. And you have a finger which is weaker than the others. The 4th shares a tendon with the 3rd. Therefore the 4th is anatomically weaker than the others fingers and cannot be completely independent (no matter how long or how much you practise Hanon exercises).

My main criteria's to fingering of my scales are :

- use fingers 1 and 5 only white keys. Because of their size, reaching the black keys with these can be hard in speed.
- always have finger 4 playing a black key.
- fingers 2-3 can play any key. These are strong fingers.

This is one of the reasons that C major is hardest scale of all since it has no black key to play for the 4th. Just as A minor which present the same keys. The passing of the thumb in these keys are possibly the most difficult of all.

For the same reason, B major scale is the easiest scale to practice since it plays all the black keys. It's very comfortable to play.



> I always start with 123-1234-123-12345 on white keys, and 2 or 3 on black keys
> same thing with left hand (except B major where I start with 4)


Hi, Ravndal !

You use 123-1234-123-12345 with starting on white keys. Do I understand this right ? Do you play F major scale with this fingering ? This means you play the Bb with the thumb ? Isn't this a bit awkward ? I went to the piano to give it a try. Playing it prestissimo with this fingering must be pretty difficult. No matter how I tried I could not do it.

Try 1234 123 1234 1234. To me, playing with the 4 on black feels much more comfortable than 1, but maybe this is just me.


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## Ravndal

yeah, there are a few exceptions. forgot about f major  1234,123,1234, 1234 is the way i do it as well. thanks!


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## hreichgott

worov said:


> - always have finger 4 playing a black key.


That explains it, I suppose. The 4th finger is indeed the weakest, but I do not find that my 4th finger has an easier time on black keys than white keys, so I don't think this fix would help me personally.


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## Novelette

hreichgott said:


> That explains it, I suppose. The 4th finger is indeed the weakest, but I do not find that my 4th finger has an easier time on black keys than white keys, so I don't think this fix would help me personally.


Nor would it benefit me. My fourth finger works well enough, but sometimes it causes my third finger to hesitate when it strikes a black key.

When I play, for example, D Major scales, I frequently notice that my third finger is failing to strike the B Natural before my fourth finger plays the A Sharp. A little bit of intensive practice fixes this flaw, but the very next day, it's happening again. For this reason, among others, I should never play anything involving substantial runs without at least thirty minutes of warm-up practice.


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## Davzon

wow.. some really good insight to scales now.


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## worov

> That explains it, I suppose. The 4th finger is indeed the weakest, but I do not find that my 4th finger has an easier time on black keys than white keys, so I don't think this fix would help me personally.


That's curious. Let's have a look at the scale with the most black keys : B major scale.

Which fingering do you use ? I use 123 1234 123 1234 1 for the right hand. Try it. Does it feel awkward ? For it's very comfortable and easy. In fact it is the most comfortable of all scales because the long fingers (234) play the black keys and the short fingers (15) play the white keys. Moreover, because the 3rd and 4th fingers are raised on the black keys, the passing of the thumb is very natural and easy. In fact the C major scale is the hardest to play for the very same reasons: the fingers cannot take advantage of their different lengths (since they must all play white keys) and the passing of the thumb is made more difficult since now all fingers are level. It is on record that both Chopin and Beethoven always taught their students the B major scale first of all.

Now if you do the left hand, you can see that you must start with the thumb on the B and use fingers 23 on the two black notes and fingers 234 on the 3 black notes. Try any other fingering and it will be terribly awkward.


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## hreichgott

That is the standard fingering for B major as far as I know. It is the fingering I have always used. But I think it has more to do with thumb issues than 4th finger issues. Any other fingering would be awkward because of what the thumb has to do, not finger 4. Your explanation also addresses thumb crossings, not anything related to the supposed ease gained by placing finger 4 on a black key rather than 4 on a white key.


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## Dustin

hreichgott said:


> Try scales, chords and arpeggios in only one key per day, many repetitions, maybe 5-10 minutes a day. Or maybe even one key per week at 5-10 minutes per day. Your hands will learn the patterns if you repeat the same ones in a focused way.


So 5-10 minutes a day should be sufficient if i stick to it daily? I'm just starting to really focus on scales and I was curious what a good amount of time would be. I have been playing for a while but I've never really played pieces that required runs of scales. I just stick to stuff like ragtime and easy Chopin pieces with only short runs here and there. But I'm wanting to learn some Mozart so I've started on K 545. The constant runs are a new thing for me so I'm trying to figure out how to get them right. And also should I practice at a much slower tempo at first and then gradually increase? I think the piece is around 125 bpm but I can only play the scales somewhat smooth at around 90.

Also if anyone knows of any good Youtube instruction or books that help with good technique and finger/hand/wrist movement, that'd be nice. I had a piano teacher before for only a month or two and he told me I played my scales too much "with my fingers". The concept of playing completely fluid and tension-free is so hard to understand and translate to my playing.


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## bombino

Have you heard of/considered Hannon? That book was very helpful to me.

http://www.hanon-online.com/

There are scales, arpeggios, and various other finger exercises.


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## Dustin

bombino said:


> Have you heard of/considered Hannon? That book was very helpful to me.
> 
> http://www.hanon-online.com/
> 
> There are scales, arpeggios, and various other finger exercises.


Yes I have this book although I haven't looked at it in a while. But the best I remember doesn't it just focus on giving you the notes to play rather than telling you how to control your elbow/wrist/fingers in a smooth and tension free way?

I may just have to eventually get a teacher, even if it is only for the 30 minute session just so I can get some hands-on technique work. I wouldn't even be that worried about repertoire work until I got technique down rock solid.


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## bombino

Dustin said:


> Yes I have this book although I haven't looked at it in a while. But the best I remember doesn't it just focus on giving you the notes to play rather than telling you how to control your elbow/wrist/fingers in a smooth and tension free way?


You're absolutely correct. It's just drills, drills, drills. I hadn't read the latter part of this thread yet but I will have to keep an eye out. My left hand has always been so much more clumsy than my right


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## Taggart

bombino said:


> .... My left hand has always been so much more clumsy than my right


Czerny 24 Easy Studies for the Left Hand op.718. It's on IMSLP as well.


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## bombino

Taggart said:


> Czerny 24 Easy Studies for the Left Hand op.718. It's on IMSLP as well.


Nice! Thank you Taggart! Sorry for the delayed response


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## Luchesi

Keep in mind this history of scales while you practice.


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## Festus

Here is what practicing scales can do for you:


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## lisaclassical

very helpful! I was taught to play both hands once octave apart for 4 octaves, major, and harmonic, melodic minors. Put emphasis on every second key for 4 octaves, than 3rd key, then 4th, etc. until the 7th, which helps for even sound. Also do octaves, 6ths, 3rds like the idea of broken 3rds, 

have not used contrary motion regularly. I have integrated arpeggios since it really helps stretch. Have just noticed I have a weakness in my left hand, 3rd, 4th, 5th finger, so working on an exercise to strengthen coordination and strength there. 

Sometimes, I listen to you tube while I practice these. The exercises take about 1 and 1/2 hours. I take a particular key each day, does not really matter which, octaves, 3rds, 6ths, in that particular key . And some various exercises to focus on my weaknesses. Use trills in "the key of the day. " I usually go through the number of flats, like will do c, F, B flat, E flat, etc, up to 6 flats, and then sharps.


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