# Richard Strauss - Four Last Songs - Who's the mummy?



## Allanmcf

I'll start
Elizabeth Schwarzkopf
Felicity Lott
Jessye Norman

Any one else better?


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## StlukesguildOhio

Better?

First off you want not only Elisabeth Scwarzkopf with George Szell and the London Philharmonic, but also with Otto Ackermann and the Philharmonia Orchestra. Then you have Lisa della Casa who is as good or better than anyone. Beyond the others you suggested, I would not be without Gundula Janowitz, Renée Fleming (both recordings), Cheryl Studer, or Eleanor Steber.


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## Tsaraslondon

This is something I wrote some years ago for another forum, and there has been nothing to change my mind in the interim.

I have all three of Schwarzkopf's recordings , 1953, live 1956 and 1965, with, respectively, Ackermann, Karajan and Szell. I also have Popp/Tennstedt, Janowitz/Karajan and Fleming/Thielemann.

I have to say, that, though I enjoy all these recordings in different ways, it is the Schwarzkopf/Szell recording I like best, the one I always return to, as, for me, she and Szell get right to the heart of these songs as no others do. With Strauss's gorgeous writing for the soprano voice, it is all too easy to forget that these are Lieder, and to ignore the texts and just revel in the sheerly beautiful sounds, provided by a Te Kanawa, a Fleming, or indeed a Janowitz. I also feel the more mature Schwarzkopf better suited to the songs than the young one. After all, these are Autumnal songs, and the voice of youth doesn't seem quite right somehow. Certain phrases in Swhwarzkopf's later recording are now so firmly etched into my memory, that they spoil me for all others and Schwarzkopf and Szell seem to be completely at one in their vision. Two give you a couple of examples, Schwarzkopf's voicing of the words _langsam tut er die mudgewordenen Augen zu_ in *September* her tone so comforting, so loving, and Szell matches her tone perfectly in the orchestra. The other is in the final song, *Im Abendrot*. The way Schwarzkopf sings the words _so tief im Abendrot_ has an almost cathartic release, not matched in any of her other recordings (nor by any other soprano), and superbly seconded by the rich carpet of sound Szell provides for her. _Ist dies etwa der Tod_, asks Schwarzkopf/Eichendorff, and as the orchestra creeps in with the quote from *Tod und Verklaerung*, one can only assume that it is. For me it is one of the classic discs of all time, and would definitely be one for my desert island.


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## dgee

I quite like the Soile Isokoski/Janowski - they're songs (not laboured missives to the gods of forever stuff), remember, and that's what these sound like. Also, harkening back to Dick Strauss' brisk and unsentimental style behind the baton . If you want to luxuriate, the Kiri/Solti ain't bad. Neither of these suffer the indignity of flaccid orchestras like some older efforts


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## Pugg

Lucia Popp. 




Renée Fleming (first recording)

Kiri Te Kanawa.

Janowitz (on Philips with Haitink)


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## Allanmcf

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Better?
> 
> First off you want not only Elisabeth Scwarzkopf with George Szell and the London Philharmonic, but also with Otto Ackermann and the Philharmonia Orchestra. Then you have Lisa della Casa who is as good or better than anyone. Beyond the others you suggested, I would not be without Gundula Janowitz, Renée Fleming (both recordings), Cheryl Studer, or Eleanor Steber.


No argument with you on this. Perhaps better is not the word I should have chosen. Every halfway decent singer brings something to the party with these amazing songs. I wouldn't be without any of the versions I have but I singled these three out only because they were what I had just been listening to. Also I apologise for ending that last sentence with a preposition.


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## Tsaraslondon

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Better?
> 
> First off you want not only Elisabeth Scwarzkopf with George Szell and the London Philharmonic, but also with Otto Ackermann and the Philharmonia Orchestra. Then you have Lisa della Casa who is as good or better than anyone. Beyond the others you suggested, I would not be without Gundula Janowitz, Renée Fleming (both recordings), Cheryl Studer, or Eleanor Steber.


I'd just point out that the Schwarzkopf/Szell version was recorded in Berlin with the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, not the LPO. In 1969 she recorded an LP of Mozart Concert Arias coupled to more Strauss songs. These were with the London Symphony Orchestra.


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## DavidA

Janowitz / Karajan


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## StlukesguildOhio

I'd just point out that the Schwarzkopf/Szell version was recorded in Berlin with the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, not the LPO. In 1969 she recorded an LP of Mozart Concert Arias coupled to more Strauss songs. These were with the London Symphony Orchestra.

The Schwarzkopf/Szell disc is usually seen combining The Four Last Songs with 12 other Orchestral Songs:










The Radio Symphonie Orchester Berlin performs the _Four Last Songs_ and five of the other orchestral songs, while the London Symphony is employed on the remaining works.

Do you have a link of the Mozart Arias/Strauss Orchestral Lieder disc? I have ES performing Mozart Arias with Karajan, Krips, Pritchard, and Braithwaite:










... and I have the disc of Mozart lieder and Concert Arias performed with Walter Gieseking (solo and with the New Philharmonia) and Szell with the LSO with Brendel on _Ch'io mi scordi di te...Non temer, amato bene_, K.505.










Along with Callas, Schwarzkopf is the singer by whom I probably have the most recordings so I would be interested in how these recordings were initially released.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Ah... Never Mind. I found the original recordings available only on vinyl:


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## StlukesguildOhio

Lucia Popp

Yes. I forgot about Lucia Popp as I don't actually have her recording as released originally...



... but rather as part of a 2-disc survey of her career:


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## Tsaraslondon

Sorry, was away from the PC. That's the LP I owned and of course the original Strauss LP with the Berlin orchestra. My CD is the first CD release, not the reissue you list above, but it is identical in all but the cover, which is slightly different.


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## Pimlicopiano

Lisa della Casa with Böhm is sublime - she's got the liquid silver voice that Strauss loved, and despite the melancholic tone of the pieces there's no mawkish wallowing. Böhm shapes the last song as this extended rallentando - the effect is very magical.

But you need Schwarzkopf, Janowitz, Norman at least for the individual qualities they each bring. Comparisions are fairly invidious. And there will be others to come.


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## hpowders

I agree with Janowitz/Karajan. Definitely my personal favorite.


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## Albert7

hpowders said:


> I agree with Janowitz/Karajan. Definitely my personal favorite.


I assume that this recording is on DG?


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## Itullian

albertfallickwang said:


> I assume that this recording is on DG?


Yes..............


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## Balthazar

For my 21st century ears, Nina Stemme is the best I've heard. I also have Renée Fleming and Schwarzkopf/Szell in my collection and have listened to most others, but Stemme/Pappano take it out of the museum and breathe some life into it. If I were to get a backup it would be Jessye Norman.


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## Pip

Flagstand Furtwängler
Jurinac Busch
Della Casa Böhm Salzburg 1958
Schwarzkopf Szell
Janowitz Karajan
Tomova-Sintov Karajan


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## Oscarf

Schwarzkopf/Szell is one of my all time favorites. When I need a more modern, better quality sound recording I go with Fleming/Thielemann


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## hpowders

albertfallickwang said:


> I assume that this recording is on DG?


Yes. It is!


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## Vaneyes




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## DavidA

Janowitz / Karajan wins hand down for me


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## Albert7

I have both the Fleming and Eaglen versions but want to pick up the Stemme version too.


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## nightscape

DavidA said:


> Janowitz / Karajan wins hand down for me


This. Terrific performance.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> Janowitz / Karajan wins hand down for me


I like this performance very much, and listen to it often for the sheer beauty of the singing and the orchestral playing. However, if I want to be reminded of the songs' deeper meaning, that they are not just beautiful vocal melismas, then it is Schwarzkopf/Szell every time. It seems to me they get to the heart of them as few others do, including Schwarzkopf herself in her earlier recording.

There are others I enjoy too, such as Fleming/Thielemann and Popp/Tennstedt and I've come round to Norman/Masur, but if forced to keep just one, then I'd find myself clinging on to that Schwarzkopf/Szell version for my desert island.


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## DavidA

I've got the earlier one of Schwartzkopf with Karajan which wasn't released for some reason at the time. Very good indeed but wouldn't swop Janowitz! Also have Della Casa with Bohm which seems too fast despite the beautiful singing.


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## Pugg

​
Number one. :tiphat:


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## Albert7

Thinking about picking up the Lisa Della Casa version.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> I've got the earlier one of Schwartzkopf with Karajan which wasn't released for some reason at the time. Very good indeed but wouldn't swop Janowitz! Also have Della Casa with Bohm which seems too fast despite the beautiful singing.


It wasn't released because it was live. Released much later because of its historical importance. I wouldn't prefer it to Karajan's performance with Janowitz either. Before either the live Karajan and the Szell, she recorded it with Ackermann. I like this performance too, but it is completely trumped, IMO, by the Szell.


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## Tsaraslondon

Pugg said:


> ​
> Number one. :tiphat:


I actually heard them do it live at the Royal Festival Hall, and it was a very memorable concert, equally memorable being Tenstedt's performance of _Tod und Verklaring_. Still, on disc, I'd go for Schwarzkopf/Szell. The Popp/tenstedt comes in third for me, after Janowitz/Karajan.


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## Pugg

GregMitchell said:


> I actually heard them do it live at the Royal Festival Hall, and it was a very memorable concert, equally memorable being Tenstedt's performance of _Tod und Verklaring_. Still, on disc, I'd go for Schwarzkopf/Szell. The Popp/tenstedt comes in third for me, after Janowitz/Karajan.


Strange you never mentioned the Janowitz/ Haitink....(Philips) or does live recordings don't count?


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## Albert7

GregMitchell said:


> I actually heard them do it live at the Royal Festival Hall, and it was a very memorable concert, equally memorable being Tenstedt's performance of _Tod und Verklaring_. Still, on disc, I'd go for Schwarzkopf/Szell. The Popp/tenstedt comes in third for me, after Janowitz/Karajan.


Man I ought to be jealous of you LOL.


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## Ukko

My first hearing was of Norman's. Apparently her interpretation(s) are so 'right' that everyone else misses the center of the target. They are more than songs, they are also a testament. Hah; that I don't have German probably helps. I have the gist, that's enough.


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## Tsaraslondon

Pugg said:


> Strange you never mentioned the Janowitz/ Haitink....(Philips) or does live recordings don't count?


I've never heard it. I didn't even know of its existence, to be honest, and I can't find any mention of a Janowitz/Haitink recording on Amazon.


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## Pugg

GregMitchell said:


> I've never heard it. I didn't even know of its existence, to be honest, and I can't find any mention of a Janowitz/Haitink recording on Amazon.


It is in the Dutch Masters series
http://www.amazon.com/Dutch-Masters-Bernard-Fantasische-Variationen/dp/B004HXJT8U
Ridiculous prices now though .


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## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> Strange you never mentioned the Janowitz/ Haitink....(Philips) or does live recordings don't count?


That one is not coming up on Amazon, but a Brahms German Requiem on Phillips with Janowitz and Haitink does come up.


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## Tsaraslondon

I also found it in DG's _Gundula Janowitz - The Golden Voice_, which can be had for a mere £230 new or £110 used. I like Janowitz, but not _that_ much.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> That one is not coming up on Amazon, but a Brahms German Requiem on Phillips with Janowitz and Haitink doe come up.


Dutch Masters: Bernard Haitink (Volume 48) (Strauss: Don Quixote, Op. 35 Fantasische Variationen (1977); *Vier Letzte Liede*r (1968))
Strauss (Composer), Bernard Haitink (Artist), Gundula Janowitz (Artist), Tibor de Machula (Artist), & 1 more Format: Audio CD

If I click on the url I get this .


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## Tsaraslondon

Pugg said:


> Dutch Masters: Bernard Haitink (Volume 48) (Strauss: Don Quixote, Op. 35 Fantasische Variationen (1977); *Vier Letzte Liede*r (1968))
> Strauss (Composer), Bernard Haitink (Artist), Gundula Janowitz (Artist), Tibor de Machula (Artist), & 1 more Format: Audio CD
> 
> If I click on the url I get this .


Still saying "from $75". Not exactly easily available.


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## Pugg

GregMitchell said:


> Still saying "from $75". Not exactly easily available.


Sometimes you see one in a sale at a CD shop that is closing, if that's the case I let you know straightaway. 
If you like off course


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## Tsaraslondon

Pugg said:


> Sometimes you see one in a sale at a CD shop that is closing, if that's the case I let you know straightaway.
> If you like off course


I'd be very interested to hear it.


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## Albert7

Heard the Stemme version and Della Casa versions and loved those better than the Fleming versions.


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## hpowders

Janowitz/Karajan does it for me.


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## Admiral

GregMitchell said:


> I like this performance very much, and listen to it often for the sheer beauty of the singing and the orchestral playing. However, if I want to be reminded of the songs' deeper meaning, that they are not just beautiful vocal melismas, then it is Schwarzkopf/Szell every time. It seems to me they get to the heart of them as few others do, including Schwarzkopf herself in her earlier recording.
> 
> There are others I enjoy too, such as Fleming/Thielemann and Popp/Tennstedt and I've come round to Norman/Masur, but if forced to keep just one, then I'd find myself clinging on to that Schwarzkopf/Szell version for my desert island.


I appreciate your thoughts and I'll give S/S another listen, but the Janowitz Strauss is stamped on to my DNA. Other than the voice of my child this is the most beautiful voice I've ever heard. She makes Elly Ameling sound like a whisky tenor.

I don't want any deeper meaning than the meaning of that voice, singing that music - I don't know if I could handle it.


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## starthrower

I just heard the Four Last songs for the first time on the radio yesterday. It was Jessye Norman w/ Kurt Masur. I was blown away!
I ordered Norman's Three Classic Albums re-issue.


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## Tsaraslondon

Admiral said:


> I appreciate your thoughts and I'll give S/S another listen, but the Janowitz Strauss is stamped on to my DNA. Other than the voice of my child this is the most beautiful voice I've ever heard. She makes Elly Ameling sound like a whisky tenor.
> 
> I don't want any deeper meaning than the meaning of that voice, singing that music - I don't know if I could handle it.


Whereas I was brought up on Schwarzkopf/Szell. I suppose, for that reason, I miss their insights when they are not there.


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## Marschallin Blair

Janowitz, Lott, and Norman all have timbres and a certain amount of weightiness that I'm immediately attracted to.

But Schwarzkopf has a lieder-like, nuanced expressivity to her singing that moves me like no other singer of the _Four Last Songs_. I really didn't appreciate the _depth_ of her understanding of the words until I listened to her _Four Last Songs_ intensely about a year ago.

I must have had her performance for well over fifteen years, but it only took flight with me when I scrupulously attended to the lyrics while listening to the singing.


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## Admiral

Marschallin Blair said:


> Janowitz, Lott, and Norman all have timbres and a certain amount of weightiness that I'm immediately attracted to.
> 
> But Schwarzkopf has a lieder-like, nuanced expressivity to her singing that moves me like no other singer of the _Four Last Songs_. I really didn't appreciate the _depth_ of her understanding of the words until I listened to her _Four Last Songs_ intensely about a year ago.
> 
> I must have had her performance for well over fifteen years, but it only took flight with me when I scrupulously attended to the lyrics while listening to the singing.


And the soul, unwatched, will soar in free flight, until it lives deeply and a thousandfold


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## Admiral

GregMitchell said:


> Whereas I was brought up on Schwarzkopf/Szell. I suppose, for that reason, I miss their insights when they are not there.


I did pull out my old Schwarzkopf/Szell LP late last night for a headphone listen and it is a wonderful performance indeed.


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## Pip

I saw Schwarzkopf sing the 4LL in London with Barbirolli in 1969, she was already having trouble by then singing Frühling but then she got into her stride - it was magnificent and Barbirolli was a wonderful accompanist.
As for Her performances with Szell, well there are three that I have.
1) Her commercial recording - the Best of all commercial recordings
.
2) Live with the Concertgebouw and Szell 1964 (It was available on an Audiophile CD with Don Quixote from the same concert)
3) Blossom Music Centre Ohio. Cleveland Orchestra Szell 1968, another wonderful performance, again showing a little frailty in the Frühling. This is why most sopranos either don't sing 4LL or give it up after a while.
Flagstad had trouble with it from the start and never sang it again after the world premiere, although she did perform the other three lieder.

Two recent performances that I have discovered worth hearing - both on YouTube.

Felicity Lott- LPO- Klaus Tennstedt Edinburgh Festival 1992 - This is one of the most outstanding performances I have ever heard. Tennstedt rapidly approaching the end of his career inspires Lott to give the performance of her life. The sound is not briliant but seek it out 





Second a favorite voice of mine - Caterina Ligendza in a performance from Stockholm with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra and conducted with great sensitivity by Walter Weller.









It is in two parts. She was a great Isolde during the 70s and 80s. She sang it for Kleiber at Bayreuth from 1974 to 1976.
A great partnership.


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## Tsaraslondon

Pip said:


> I saw Schwarzkopf sing the 4LL in London with Barbirolli in 1969, she was already having trouble by then singing Frühling but then she got into her stride - it was magnificent and Barbirolli was a wonderful accompanist.
> As for Her performances with Szell, well there are three that I have.
> 1) Her commercial recording - the Best of all commercial recordings
> .
> 2) Live with the Concertgebouw and Szell 1964 (It was available on an Audiophile CD with Don Quixote from the same concert)
> 3) Blossom Music Centre Ohio. Cleveland Orchestra Szell 1968, another wonderful performance, again showing a little frailty in the Frühling. This is why most sopranos either don't sing 4LL or give it up after a while.
> Flagstad had trouble with it from the start and never sang it again after the world premiere, although she did perform the other three lieder.
> 
> Two recent performances that I have discovered worth hearing - both on YouTube.
> 
> Felicity Lott- LPO- Klaus Tennstedt Edinburgh Festival 1992 - This is one of the most outstanding performances I have ever heard. Tennstedt rapidly approaching the end of his career inspires Lott to give the performance of her life. The sound is not briliant but seek it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second a favorite voice of mine - Caterina Ligendza in a performance from Stockholm with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra and conducted with great sensitivity by Walter Weller.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is in two parts. She was a great Isolde during the 70s and 80s. She sang it for Kleiber at Bayreuth from 1974 to 1976.
> A great partnership.


Thanks for those links, Pip.

The Lott version is absolutely beautiful. She is in really gorgeous voice, and quite how she sustains Tennstedt's slow speeds is beyond me. Never once do they strain her resources. Quite wonderful.

I enjoyed the Ligendza version too, but there are moments when the voice is a bit too steely for my taste, though it softens after the first song. Still a very fine version indeed.


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## Pip

GregMitchell said:


> Thanks for those links, Pip.
> 
> The Lott version is absolutely beautiful. She is in really gorgeous voice, and quite how she sustains Tennstedt's slow speeds is beyond me. Never once do they strain her resources. Quite wonderful.
> 
> I enjoyed the Ligendza version too, but there are moments when the voice is a bit too steely for my taste, though it softens after the first song. Still a very fine version indeed.


Thanks Greg. The Lott performance just blew me away,
As for Ligendza, I had a thing for her back in the70s, especially the Isolde she sang with Kleiber in 1976, which I saw.this was the same year. She did not record very much, and I thought that I would give her reputation a well deserved push forwards.


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## Ravndal

I havent heard felicity lott in that, but i bet she is good. My favorite is Janowitz/Karajan.

If you like those songs, i bet you will like this one as well. Its not Strauss, but Norwegian serialist composer Fartein Valen. Very early work, so reminds more of Strauss' late romantic style.

Tried to find the version with soprano Berit Norbakken, which is much better. But this will have to do


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## Woodduck

Balthazar said:


> For *my 21st century ears*, Nina Stemme is the best I've heard. I also have Renée Fleming and Schwarzkopf/Szell in my collection and have listened to most others, but Stemme/Pappano take it out of the museum and breathe some life into it. If I were to get a backup it would be Jessye Norman.


Does that mean you're only 15 years old, or have you purchased new ears since 2000?


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## Marschallin Blair

Admiral said:


> And the soul, unwatched, will soar in free flight, until it lives deeply and a thousandfold


Beautiful, yes. . . . . . but then I do that every day.

_;D_


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> For my 21st century ears, Nina Stemme is the best I've heard. I also have Renée Fleming and Schwarzkopf/Szell in my collection and have listened to most others, but Stemme/Pappano take it out of the museum and breathe some life into it. If I were to get a backup it would be Jessye Norman.
> 
> View attachment 58860


How do you resuscitate what's already in fact, _Eternal_?

Strauss echoes though eternity; which can't be said of course for so much contemporary music, which is merely:"Here_ today_, gone_ later _today."


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> Does that mean you're only 15 years old, or have you purchased new ears since 2000?


Give him a break.

I was fifteen once, but that was like four years ago.

I've grown up.

What one teen can do, another can do.

_;D_


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## Woodduck

I second Greg and others who find the Schwarzkopf/Szell ultimate in its deep understanding. I used to prefer the earlier Schwarzkopf with Ackermann for its sheer vocal freshness and sweep - I don't like self-indulgence in this music, which puts a few lugubrious versions out of court (e.g. Fleming/Thielemann). Janowitz/Karajan is sheer surface beauty by the experts in that quality; I can't get too interested. The wonderful surprise for me was Jesse Norman, whose artistry in song I've admired (great _Wesendoncks_, Brahms, other Strauss songs) but whose tendency to flat her high notes would be fatal in this. I think she's splendid here, I like the dark timbre as a contrast to Schwarzkopf, and I find her interpretive instincts spot on. A magisterial performance.


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## Woodduck

The performance that saddened me was Flagstad's. Strauss obviously loved the beauty of her voice, having chosen her for the premiere, but by 1948 she was 53 and the voice was too heavy and no longer easy enough at the top to sustain the soaring lines (as opposed to belting out Brunnhildean blasts in opera). She might have been fine fifteen years earlier, but of course the songs didn't exist then. I suspect Jesse Norman's may be our best example of a dramatic-weight voice in these songs.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> I second Greg and others who find the Schwarzkopf/Szell ultimate in its deep understanding. I used to prefer the earlier Schwarzkopf with Ackermann for its sheer vocal freshness and sweep - I don't like self-indulgence in this music, which puts a few lugubrious versions out of court (e.g. Fleming/Thielemann). Janowitz/Karajan is sheer surface beauty by the experts in that quality; I can't get too interested. The wonderful surprise for me was Jesse Norman, whose artistry in song I've admired (great _Wesendoncks_, Brahms, other Strauss songs) but whose tendency to flat her high notes would be fatal in this. I think she's splendid here, I like the dark timbre as a contrast to Schwarzkopf, and I find her interpretive instincts spot on. A magisterial performance.


Well if it's 'sheer surface beauty' then bring it on!!! Janowitz / Karajan is one of my desert island records.


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## Balthazar

Woodduck said:


> Does that mean you're only 15 years old, or have you purchased new ears since 2000?


Most of the cells in the human body regenerate within 10 years, so unless one has been hanging out in a vat of formaldehyde... no purchase necessary!

P.S. Recently re-spun the Schwarzkopf/Szell -- it's pretty fierce.


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Most of the cells in the human body regenerate within 10 years, so unless one has been hanging out in a vat of formaldehyde... no purchase necessary!
> 
> P.S. Recently re-spun the Schwarzkopf/Szell -- it's pretty fierce.


_Entirely_ so, Balthsy.


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> Well if it's 'sheer surface beauty' then bring it on!!! Janowitz / Karajan is one of my desert island records.


But all that sheens is not gold.

'Platinum' maybe, but not gold.

-- I love the 'Tiffany's' Janowitz too. I just love the 'Cartier' Schwarzkopf more.


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## DavidA

Marschallin Blair said:


> But all that sheens is not gold.
> 
> 'Platinum' maybe, but not gold.
> 
> -- I love the 'Tiffany's' Janowitz too. I just love the 'Cartier' Schwarzkopf more.


Platinum is rated more highly than gold!


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> Platinum is rated more highly than gold!


Not today.

Platinum's currently around twelve-six and gold's at about twelve-eight.

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html


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## Woodduck

I'll take gold. I've always been a heavy metal fan.


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## Marschallin Blair

> Woodduck: I'll take gold. I've always been a heavy metal fan


. . . _ore_ platinum-- they both look fabulous. _;D _


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## DavidA

For me it's not either / or thank goodness! I've Schwartskopf with Karajan. vive le difference!


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> For me it's not either / or thank goodness! I've Schwartskopf with Karajan. vive le difference!


Now that's a _really hard act _to follow. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> For me it's not either / or thank goodness! I've Schwartskopf with Karajan. vive le difference!


I have that one too, but I still prefer Schwarzkopf with Szell. Karajan's a little fast here for my liking and he also re-orders the songs for some reason.


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## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> I have that one too, but I still prefer Schwarzkopf with Szell. Karajan's a little fast here for my liking and he also re-orders the songs for some reason.


Sustained.

The vocals need room to breathe.


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> Sustained.
> 
> The vocals need room to breathe.


To breathe, but not to droop - ay, there's

The rub! To dream, but not to sleep - 'tis

A consummation devoutly to be wished!


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> To breathe, but not to droop - ay, there's
> 
> The rub! To dream, but not to sleep - 'tis
> 
> A consummation devoutly to be wished!


Is it nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of boring singing,

Or to take to Callas for a Sea of troubles?


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> Is it nobler in the mind to suffer
> 
> The slings and arrows of boring singing,
> 
> Or to take to Callas for a Sea of troubles?


I know a hawk from a handsaw,

And a Callas from a Sutherland.


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> I know a hawk from a handsaw,
> 
> And a Callas from a Sutherland.


Listen, Guilden-duck, and you too, Greg-en-crantz,
Listen as close as you can! 
Dame Joan is still in diapers,
And I'm Callas' number one fan.


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> Listen, Guilden-duck, and you too, Greg-en-crantz,
> Listen as close as you can!
> Dame Joan is still in diapers,
> And I'm Callas' number one fan.


Young Mrs. Bonynge.
Her diaper donning,
Deferred to Callas
And felt no malice.
How now can we, 
Of snobbery free, 
Her voice adoring,
Aver she's boring?


----------



## Admiral

Much to my surprise, I found a different Schwarzkopf recording in my collection; I like the Fruhling and Im Abendrot especially:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> Young Mrs. Bonynge.
> Her diaper donning,
> Deferred to Callas
> And felt no malice.
> How now can we,
> Of snobbery free,
> Her voice adoring,
> Aver she's boring?


'Callas supreme' then,
Such acting since when?
Sure Joannie is nice 
And beauty's no vice.
But how can we
Lotus Eaters be?
When Divina's soaring,
Beauty seems boring.


----------



## starthrower

The Amazon vendor sent me a Natalie Merchant CD by mistake. So I still don't have a recording of The Last Four Songs.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Admiral said:


> Much to my surprise, I found a different Schwarzkopf recording in my collection; I like the Fruhling and Im Abendrot especially:
> 
> View attachment 61493


is that the earlier one with Ackermann conducting. It's very fine, but I still prefer Szell.


----------



## Badinerie

The first one I heard was with Eva Marton which I still love but the best must be The Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/Szell. I do really like the Cheryl Studer/ Sinopoli one thought. The Staatkappel Dresden sound beautiful too.


----------



## starthrower

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I'd just point out that the Schwarzkopf/Szell version was recorded in Berlin with the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, not the LPO. In 1969 she recorded an LP of Mozart Concert Arias coupled to more Strauss songs. These were with the London Symphony Orchestra.
> 
> The Schwarzkopf/Szell disc is usually seen combining The Four Last Songs with 12 other Orchestral Songs:
> .


Picked up a library copy, but I don't care for her voice. Too light. I want the Jessye Norman.


----------



## amfortas

starthrower said:


> Picked up a library copy, but I don't care for her voice. Too light. I want the Jessye Norman.


I first encountered the Four Last Songs through the Norman recording, and for a while felt as you do about other singers' versions. But Norman's an anomaly--who else sounds like her? So over time I've also come to appreciate sopranos who sing this music in voices probably closer to what Strauss had in mind.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

starthrower said:


> Picked up a library copy, but I don't care for her voice. Too light. I want the Jessye Norman.


Whom I find altogether too heavy. The voice never really soars. Also I find that, like a lot of her work, the emotions are generalised, not specific. For me Schwarzkopf understands the songs, their deeper meaning, like no other.

If I just want to revel in their beauty and not think too much about what they mean, then I would probably turn to Janowitz (who surely can soar) or Popp. Not that either singer is unfeeling in their response to the texts, of course.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Badinerie said:


> The first one I heard was with Eva Marton which I still love but the best must be The Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/Szell. I do really like the Cheryl Studer/ Sinopoli one thought. The Staatkappel Dresden sound beautiful too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,


I'm not a fan of Studer, which is probably why I never listened to her version with Sinopoli. It had a very good press when it came out. Maybe I should give it a try.

Another one that was very well received and that I have yet to hear is the Isokoski version.


----------



## starthrower

I'll give the Schwarzkopf another try this weekend. But I'm partial to a more full bodied female voice.


----------



## starthrower

I just put it on again now and cranked it up. You're right! She's very good, and she can soar!


----------



## Ukko

starthrower said:


> I just put it on again now and cranked it up. You're right! She's very good, and she can soar!


Sopranos who soar are detrimental to my aural health.


----------



## starthrower

Ukko said:


> Sopranos who soar are detrimental to my aural health.


Just take some Dramamine.


----------



## DavidA

I just managed to get Schwartskopf / Szell recording in a sale for £2-99. Very touching.

Also got the recording she made with Karajan in the 1950s and also the classic Janowitz / Karajan.

Also have Della Casa / Bohm but I feel the speeds are too fAst for my liking. But that is personal taste.

Good to have riches!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Ukko said:


> Sopranos who soar are detrimental to my aural health.


'Hot and fierce' isn't for everyone.


----------



## hapiper

Big thanks to stlukesguildohio for posting that photo of the Lucia Popp box set "The very Best of" I am a big fan of her singing and I am absolutely going to grab this as soon as I can find it. I also want to get the other album you mentioned of her with Klaus Tennstedt doing these Strauss works. Fun times a coming.


----------



## Bellinilover

I just bought the Cheryl Studer/Giuseppe Sinopoli recording mentioned above. Studer may lack the "vocal glamor" of Fleming or Te Kanawa (or Della Casa, whom I've never actually heard before), but from what I can tell it's a good, solid rendition.

I've come to like Studer very much via her recording of _Salome_ (with Sinopoli). I'd always been sort of "put off" checking her out because of what I'd heard about her vocal problems in the 2000's. But personally I couldn't imagine a better recorded Salome than hers. As a singer, she seemed to lack only the "glamor and float" that you hear in Te Kanawa or Fleming. That and perhaps some power in the high register for Strauss.


----------



## Weston

I'd like to get in on fascination with art song. After so many decades of listening, I still haven't warmed to that vocal style unless it is a wordless soprano as in some Ligeti works and the Sinfonia Antartica. Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde _ is pretty impressive. Maybe the _Four Last Songs _should be my next indoctrination into this genre.

I gather from skimming this thread that the Schwartskopf / Szell might be the way to go for a first hearing? I heard samples of the remarkably inexpensive Jessye Norman version on Amazon and found it the typical warbling that turns people away from art song. Maybe that's required of this era. I'll look for a Schwartskopf and see if that will turn me around.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Weston said:


> I'd like to get in on fascination with art song. After so many decades of listening, I still haven't warmed to that vocal style unless it is a wordless soprano as in some Ligeti works and the Sinfonia Antartica. Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde _ is pretty impressive. Maybe the _Four Last Songs _should be my next indoctrination into this genre.
> 
> I gather from skimming this thread that the Schwartskopf / Szell might be the way to go for a first hearing? I heard samples of the remarkably inexpensive Jessye Norman version on Amazon and found it the typical warbling that turns people away from art song. Maybe that's required of this era. I'll look for a Schwartskopf and see if that will turn me around.


And if you're looking for a recording of *Das Lied von der Erde*, out of the many great recordings out there, may I recommend the Kubelik with Waldemar Kmennt and the absolutely superb Dame Janet Baker. I have never in all my experience heard a more moving rendition of the final _Abschied_ (and I've heard an awful lot of recordings). The sadness and pain Dame Janet evinces is almost too much to bear and leaves me shattered every time. Superbly seconded by that experienced Mahlerian Rafael Kubelik, it is the recording I most often pull down of the shelf, as is the Schwarzkopf/Szell recording of the _Vier letzte Lieder_, though I own quite a few others. Both of these recordings would be among my desert island choices.


----------



## brotagonist

Weston said:


> I'd like to get in on fascination with art song. After so many decades of listening, I still haven't warmed to that vocal style unless it is a wordless soprano as in some Ligeti works and the Sinfonia Antartica. Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde _ is pretty impressive. Maybe the _Four Last Songs _should be my next indoctrination into this genre.


I've been into it for years, but only as a sideline, hence, I don't know a lot of albums, but I do know a few very good ones :tiphat:

Berg (Margaret Price, Abbado/LSO) Altenberg Lieder (orchestral songs)
Debussy (Gérard Souzay) Mélodies
Dowland (John Potter) In Darkness Let Me Dwell (Renaissance art songs)
Eisler (Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau) Lieder (also called Hollywood Songbook)
Christian Gerhaher Ferne Geliebte (Schoenberg's Hanging Gardens and Berg's Altenberg Lieder, both  and some Haydn, Beethoven; not to be missed!)
Thomas Hampson To The Soul (songs of Walt Whitman, quite good Americana in the genre)
Konrad Jarnot (performs Strauss' Vier Letzte Lieder  expensive)
Steven Kimbrough The Art of American Song (cowboy art songs; marvellous! expensive)
Dagmar Krause (a pair of albums of songs by Weill and Eisler)
Mahler (Brigitte Fassbaender, etc.) Lied von der Erde, piano version (recommended by Heliogabo, sounded so fantastic that I ordered immediately!)
Mahler (Christian Gerhaher) Lieder
Schoeck (Christian Gerhaher, Rosamunde Quartett) Notturno (late Romantic art songs with String Quartet)
Schoenberg Pierrot Lunaire (I think this qualifies; burlesque art song cycle: try Helga Pilarczyk and Christine Schäfer)
Schoenberg Gurre-Lieder
Schoenberg Songs (Konrad Jarnot, Claudia Barainsky, Dorothy Dorow, other interpreters; early songs not 12-tone)
Schoenberg Brettl-Lieder (cabaret songs)
Schubert (Christian Gerhaher) Nachtviolen (fine selection of less heard songs; not just the worn-out platonic love songs)
Schumann (Christian Gerhaher) Melancholie (again, a very nice selection of less heard songs)
Shostakovich Symphony 14 (orchestral songs)
Shostakovich Poems of Marina Tsvetaeva (orchestral)
Shostakovich Execution of Stepan Razin (orchestral, wow!)
Webern (Christiane Oelze) Lieder
Webern Lieder (many interpreters; great songs, texts by many fine poets!)
Weill (Lotte Lenya) Seven Deadly Sins (orchestral)
Weill (Songs, Berlin Theatre Songs)
Zemlinsky Lyrische Symphonie (orchestral song symphony)

Other composers known for Lieder are Hugo Wolf, Schubert, Schumann, but I find the late Romantic a much richer fount of interesting material.


----------



## brotagonist

Weston said:


> ...the typical warbling that turns people away from art song. Maybe that's required of this era.


The typical warbling turned me off, too  Hence, try the New Viennese School, early stuff, if you're less adventurous in the genre  Also Pfitzner, Hindemith, late Romantic, like I indicated.

Another way to explore is by poet. Find the heady poets-Trakl, George, Hesse, Rilke, Baudelaire, Mallarmé, etc., around 1890 and on, and see what songs you can dig up. There is a ton of great stuff with lots of atmosphere from this time.


----------



## Becca

The first recording that I got of 4 Last Songs was Kiri Te Kanawa / Andrew Davis and that was a loooong time ago. I now also have Schwarzkopf/Szell, and the difference is night/day .... or perhaps I should say noon / evening


----------



## Albert7

I would like to hear Fleming record this for the third time in 10 more years.


----------



## Woodduck

Weston said:


> I'd like to get in on fascination with art song. After so many decades of listening, I still haven't warmed to that vocal style unless it is a wordless soprano as in some Ligeti works and the Sinfonia Antartica. Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde _ is pretty impressive. Maybe the _Four Last Songs _should be my next indoctrination into this genre.
> 
> I gather from skimming this thread that the Schwartskopf / Szell might be the way to go for a first hearing? I heard samples of the remarkably inexpensive Jessye Norman version on Amazon and found it the typical warbling that turns people away from art song. Maybe that's required of this era. I'll look for a Schwartskopf and see if that will turn me around.


The Schwarzkopf/Szell recording of the _Four Last Songs_ is felt by many (including me) to be the best ever. But I'm a little startled by your description of Jessye Norman's singing as "warbling." Or are you talking about something else? Norman's recording is one of my favorites and I could easily recommend it as a second or third choice for this work. Good luck with Schwarzkopf!


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Woodduck said:


> The Schwarzkopf/Szell recording of the _Four Last Songs_ is felt by many (including me) to be the best ever. But I'm a little startled by your description of Jessye Norman's singing as "warbling." Or are you talking about something else? Norman's recording is one of my favorites and I could easily recommend it as a second or third choice for this work. Good luck with Schwarzkopf!


I've never taken to the Norman recording myself, but I too would hardly use the words "warbling" to describe her voice or her singing. For me it's a little _too_ rich in overtones, and I often hear it as being flat, which is why I tend to prefer her in mezzo repertory. That isn't to say she is flat, but we do all hear voices slightly differently. I also find her interpretation a little generalised, as I do in a lot of her recordings, and my impressions were the same on the occasions I heard her live. She sings with great generosity of spirit, but I rarely hear something specific or personal in her response to the music.

That said, I did once come across a youtube clip (now unfortunately deleted) of her singing the _Libera Me_ from the *Verdi Requiem * under Muti (very much soprano territory) and she was absolutely stunning; riveting in her response to the text and the voice gloriously free on high. There are quite a few live recordings of her singing the mezzo part but I've never come across another one of her singing the soprano part. I wish this one would become available. I can't remember the bass, but I think the other soloists were Baltsa and Carreras.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Becca said:


> The first recording that I got of 4 Last Songs was Kiri Te Kanawa / Andrew Davis and that was a loooong time ago. I now also have Schwarzkopf/Szell, and the difference is night/day .... or perhaps I should say noon / evening


You know what?- I was the biggest Kiri fan for awhile (and still am, of course!)- and when I got the Andrew Davis _Four Last Songs_ I was terribly disappointed with how anodyne and placid Kiri's expression was.

So, 'yeah,' I can only imagine your shock at going from Kiri to Liz.

It certainly would have given _my_ head that 'transverse moment' of being knocked sideways. _;D_


----------



## Becca

Marschallin Blair said:


> You know what?- I was the biggest Kiri fan for awhile (and still am, of course!)- and when I got the Andrew Davis _Four Last Songs_ I was terribly disappointed with how anodyne and placid Kiri's expression was.
> 
> So, 'yeah,' I can only imagine your shock at going from Kiri to Liz.
> 
> It certainly would have given _my_ head that 'transverse moment' of being knocked sideways. _;D_


I am reminded of the 6th episode _After the Wake_ of Rattle's TV series on 20th century music - _Leaving Home_ - in which he uses the _4 Last Songs_ as a background to scenes of 1945 Germany and as a lead in to discussing Stockhausen, Boulez, etc.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Becca said:


> I am reminded of the 6th episode _After the Wake_ of Rattle's TV series on 20th century music - _Leaving Home_ - in which he uses the _4 Last Songs_ as a background to scenes of 1945 Germany and as a lead in to discussing Stockhausen, Boulez, etc.


Interesting non-sequitur with the choice of soundtrack. . . . unless of course the understated irony of the documentarian was to foreshadow the death of music by playing Strauss' own swansong to life.


----------



## Woodduck

GregMitchell said:


> I've never taken to the Norman recording myself, but I too would hardly use the words "warbling" to describe her voice or her singing. For me it's a little _too_ rich in overtones, and* I often hear it as being flat,* which is why I tend to prefer her in mezzo repertory. *That isn't to say she is flat, but we do all hear voices slightly **]differently*. I also find her interpretation a little generalised, as I do in a lot of her recordings, and my impressions were the same on the occasions I heard her live. She sings with great generosity of spirit, but I rarely hear something specific or personal in her response to the music.
> 
> That said, I did once come across a youtube clip (now unfortunately deleted) of her singing the _Libera Me_ from the *Verdi Requiem * under Muti (very much soprano territory) and she was absolutely stunning; riveting in her response to the text and the voice gloriously free on high. There are quite a few live recordings of her singing the mezzo part but I've never come across another one of her singing the soprano part. I wish this one would become available. I can't remember the bass, but I think the other soloists were Baltsa and Carreras.


It isn't just your hearing. Norman did indeed have a problem with her high notes being actually under pitch in the latter part of her career, and it makes some of her work impossible for me to enjoy. I don't recall it in the _4 Last Songs_, though. She does bring to the songs a somewhat grander, more "epic" feeling, not as detailed in response to individual words as Schwarzkopf but still intelligent and feelingful, as much so as most others and more so than some favored performances, e.g. Janowitz and Te Kanawa, both of whom are lovely but bland. Strauss had Flagstad premiere the songs, so he imagined a big, rich voice for them, but she was unfortunately too old by then to manage the high tessitura comfortably. I suspect he'd have been pleased with Norman.


----------



## Weston

GregMitchell said:


> And if you're looking for a recording of *Das Lied von der Erde*, out of the many great recordings out there, may I recommend the Kubelik with Waldemar Kmennt and the absolutely superb Dame Janet Baker. I have never in all my experience heard a more moving rendition of the final _Abschied_ (and I've heard an awful lot of recordings). The sadness and pain Dame Janet evinces is almost too much to bear and leaves me shattered every time. Superbly seconded by that experienced Mahlerian Rafael Kubelik, it is the recording I most often pull down of the shelf, as is the Schwarzkopf/Szell recording of the _Vier letzte Lieder_, though I own quite a few others. Both of these recordings would be among my desert island choices.


I did find a copy of the Kubelik / Janet Baker Das lied for my collection on the strength of yours and MB's enthusiasm for it. It is the only art song album I have so far (well, maybe a little from Korngold and Schubert) and is the first to have held my interest enough to pursue it farther. So I have you both to thank for that..


----------



## Weston

brotagonist said:


> The typical warbling turned me off, too  Hence, try the New Viennese School, early stuff, if you're less adventurous in the genre  Also Pfitzner, Hindemith, late Romantic, like I indicated.
> 
> Another way to explore is by poet. Find the heady poets-Trakl, George, Hesse, Rilke, Baudelaire, Mallarmé, etc., around 1890 and on, and see what songs you can dig up. There is a ton of great stuff with lots of atmosphere from this time.


I've grown pretty adventurous in the 2nd Viennese school and like the out there stuff more than the early stuff. That's a good idea. It might draw me in (except for _Pierrot Lunaire_).

I've saved your "few" very good albums list for future exploration.



Woodduck said:


> The Schwarzkopf/Szell recording of the _Four Last Songs_ is felt by many (including me) to be the best ever. But I'm a little startled by your description of Jessye Norman's singing as "warbling." Or are you talking about something else? Norman's recording is one of my favorites and I could easily recommend it as a second or third choice for this work. Good luck with Schwarzkopf!


We mean the use of extreme vibrato that came into vogue some time after the baroque or classic periods. The earlier singing styles were not quite so pronounced. Come to think of it, violins and other strings started using heavy vibrato too around the same time. It just takes a little getting used to.


----------



## brotagonist

Paul Hindemith Op.23a,3

Des Todes Tod (Death's Death)


----------



## Woodduck

Weston said:


> I've grown pretty adventurous in the 2nd Viennese school and like the out there stuff more than the early stuff.  That's a good idea. It might draw me in (except for _Pierrot Lunaire_).
> 
> I've saved your "few" very good albums list for future exploration.
> 
> We mean the use of extreme vibrato that came into vogue some time after the baroque or classic periods. The earlier singing styles were not quite so pronounced. Come to think of it, violins and other strings started using heavy vibrato too around the same time. It just takes a little getting used to.


Vibratos are very variable among singers. They can be annoying if too prominent, but everyone's taste is different. I like a quick, "narrow" (not much pitch variation) vibrato; both Schwarzkopf and Norman please me in this respect, but your tolerance may be different. I don't buy the "no vibrato at all in early music" school of thought, since a spontaneous vibrato is natural in well-trained voices. A lot of the big, forced operatic voices of today have very prominent, wide vibratos which were not favored even in the 19th century, as you can hear on recordings of singers like Battistini, Melba and Caruso.


----------



## hpowders

My favorite remains Janowitz/Karajan.


----------



## Barbebleu

Just finished listening to Schwarzkopf and Kletzki with the Vienna Symphony in a live recording from 1952, the year before her recording with Ackerman. It is very fine with Ms Schwarzkopf in spectacular voice.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Bellinilover said:


> Della Casa, whom I've never actually heard before


GASP!!! Lisa della Casa is my favourite of the five versions of this that I have. She has a wonderful voice for Strauss and at a small handful of coins on Naxos, I would heartily recommend her version. You might even be able to listen in on Naxos library or you-yube etc first


----------



## Barbebleu

Now listened to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf with Sudfunk Symphony Orchestra, Stuttgart conducted by Hans Muller-Kray in a live performance 20 June 1960. Very good performance with Ms. Schwarzkopf in very good voice.


----------



## MAS

I have collected most of the recordings of Vier Letzte Lieder over the years. Even obscure ones like Elizabeth Meyer Topsoe, Michaela Kaune. The ones I return to the most often are these two:

Norman / Masur
Te Kanawa / Davis







.


----------



## brotagonist

Who's the mummy? Konrad Jarnot is


----------



## MAS

brotagonist said:


> Who's the mummy? Konrad Jarnot is


Haven't heard him. Why do you like it?


----------



## Eramirez156

I can't believe I didn't discover this thread sooner. Here are a couple you tube videos.

Lucia Popp and Georg Solti with Chicago Symphony Orchestra






Kiri Te Kanawa and Georg Solti in rehearsal and performance






I'll give my personal picks later.


----------



## Pugg

Eramirez156 said:


> I can't believe I didn't discover this thread sooner. Here are a couple you tube videos.
> 
> Lucia Popp and Georg Solti with Chicago Symphony Orchestra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give my personal picks later.


Such a fine and virtuous performance. :tiphat:


----------



## Eramirez156

_
"Has there ever been a more glorious farewell in the history of musical composition than the Four Last Songs of Richard Strauss? Certainly not in the twentieth century. This profoundly moving quartet of orchestral lieder, completed in 1948 -- the penultimate year of Strauss' life, when he lived in exile in Switzerland, having faced denazification proceedings back home in Germany -- stands as the final testament of one of the world's most controversial and misunderstood composers. He died in September 1949, never having heard them performed."_
*September Songs* _Opera News. August 1999_ _*Brooks Peters*_

So ok, here are my picks *Lucia Popp's* first recording with Klaus Tennstedt (which is playing as I write this), *Jessye Norman* with Kurt Masur, ( which Peters in the article quoted above called a " a misguided disappointment." I couldn't disagree more.

There are three recordings I wouldn't want to be without Leontyne Price with what Peters calls "an almost Verdian heightened sense of drama." Lucia Popp's second recording with Tilson Thomas, recorded shortly before the singers death,a final leave taking, " touching for its all-too-mortal frailty. " And finally Kirsten Flagstad's recording of the songs debut with its sense of occasion.

Now I come to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf,there are many virtues in her recordings of the songs, but they don't move me like the above recordings, I just don't find them compelling.

Wait, wait i forgot Lisa della Casas, Ljuba Welitsch, Gundula Janowitz, Cheryl Studer and Rene Fleming. Luckily we don't have to chose.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Eramirez156 said:


> _
> "Has there ever been a more glorious farewell in the history of musical composition than the Four Last Songs of Richard Strauss? Certainly not in the twentieth century. This profoundly moving quartet of orchestral lieder, completed in 1948 -- the penultimate year of Strauss' life, when he lived in exile in Switzerland, having faced denazification proceedings back home in Germany -- stands as the final testament of one of the world's most controversial and misunderstood composers. He died in September 1949, never having heard them performed."_
> *September Songs* _Opera News. August 1999_ _*Brooks Peters*_
> 
> So ok, here are my picks *Lucia Popp's* first recording with Klaus Tennstedt (which is playing as I write this), *Jessye Norman* with Kurt Masur, ( which Peters in the article quoted above called a " a misguided disappointment." I couldn't disagree more.
> 
> There are three recordings I wouldn't want to be without Leontyne Price with what Peters calls "an almost Verdian heightened sense of drama." Lucia Popp's second recording with Tilson Thomas, recorded shortly before the singers death,a final leave taking, " touching for its all-too-mortal frailty. " And finally Kirsten Flagstad's recording of the songs debut with its sense of occasion.
> 
> Now I come to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf,there are many virtues in her recordings of the songs, but they don't move me like the above recordings, I just don't find them compelling.
> 
> Wait, wait i forgot Lisa della Casas, Ljuba Welitsch, Gundula Janowitz, Cheryl Studer and Rene Fleming. Luckily we don't have to chose.


How odd. I find her recordings, especially the later studio recording with Szell, more moving than any other. Her attention to the words means we don't just get beauty, but truth and beauty. None of the other sopranos you mention has quite the same grasp of the deeper meaning of the songs.

This is what I said in post 3 of this thread.

_I have to say, that, though I enjoy all these recordings (I had been talking about Popp/Tennstedt, Fleming/Thielemann and Janowitz/Popp) in different ways, it is the Schwarzkopf/Szell recording I like best, the one I always return to, as, for me, she and Szell get right to the heart of these songs as no others do. With Strauss's gorgeous writing for the soprano voice, it is all too easy to forget that these are Lieder, and to ignore the texts and just revel in the sheerly beautiful sounds, provided by a Te Kanawa, a Fleming, or indeed a Janowitz. I also feel the more mature Schwarzkopf better suited to the songs than the young one. After all, these are Autumnal songs, and the voice of youth doesn't seem quite right somehow. Certain phrases in Swhwarzkopf's later recording are now so firmly etched into my memory, that they spoil me for all others and Schwarzkopf and Szell seem to be completely at one in their vision. Two give you a couple of examples, Schwarzkopf's voicing of the words langsam tut er die mudgewordenen Augen zu in September her tone so comforting, so loving, and Szell matches her tone perfectly in the orchestra. The other is in the final song, Im Abendrot. The way Schwarzkopf sings the words so tief im Abendrot has an almost cathartic release, not matched in any of her other recordings (nor by any other soprano), and superbly seconded by the rich carpet of sound Szell provides for her. Ist dies etwa der Tod, asks Schwarzkopf/Eichendorff, and as the orchestra creeps in with the quote from Tod und Verklaerung, one can only assume that it is. For me it is one of the classic discs of all time, and would definitely be one for my desert island._

Nothing I've heard from others has lead me to change my opinion.


----------



## Eramirez156

GregMitchell said:


> How odd. I find her recordings, especially the later studio recording with Szell, more moving than any other. Her attention to the words means we don't just get beauty, but truth and beauty. None of the other sopranos you mention has quite the same grasp of the deeper meaning of the songs.
> 
> This is what I said in post 3 of this thread.
> 
> _I have to say, that, though I enjoy all these recordings (I had been talking about Popp/Tennstedt, Fleming/Thielemann and Janowitz/Popp) in different ways, it is the Schwarzkopf/Szell recording I like best, the one I always return to, as, for me, she and Szell get right to the heart of these songs as no others do. With Strauss's gorgeous writing for the soprano voice, it is all too easy to forget that these are Lieder, and to ignore the texts and just revel in the sheerly beautiful sounds, provided by a Te Kanawa, a Fleming, or indeed a Janowitz. I also feel the more mature Schwarzkopf better suited to the songs than the young one. After all, these are Autumnal songs, and the voice of youth doesn't seem quite right somehow. Certain phrases in Swhwarzkopf's later recording are now so firmly etched into my memory, that they spoil me for all others and Schwarzkopf and Szell seem to be completely at one in their vision. Two give you a couple of examples, Schwarzkopf's voicing of the words langsam tut er die mudgewordenen Augen zu in September her tone so comforting, so loving, and Szell matches her tone perfectly in the orchestra. The other is in the final song, Im Abendrot. The way Schwarzkopf sings the words so tief im Abendrot has an almost cathartic release, not matched in any of her other recordings (nor by any other soprano), and superbly seconded by the rich carpet of sound Szell provides for her. Ist dies etwa der Tod, asks Schwarzkopf/Eichendorff, and as the orchestra creeps in with the quote from Tod und Verklaerung, one can only assume that it is. For me it is one of the classic discs of all time, and would definitely be one for my desert island._
> 
> Nothing I've heard from others has lead me to change my opinion.


I know it is failing on my part, I will happily revisit these recordings including Schwarzkopf's because I do treasure their virtues, it is just for me, I turn to other recordings first.


----------



## MAS

duplicate post duplicate post


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## MAS

Eramirez156 said:


> I know it is failing on my part, I will happily revisit these recordings including Schwarzkopf's because I do treasure their virtues, it is just for me, I turn to other recordings first.


Eramirez156, I can't consider it a failing that you don't like Schwarzkopf's recording of TFLS - many don't, regardless of the reputation of that recording. Some don't respond to her voice and mannerisms - that's subjective, as is liking others singers's versions. You can't force yourself to respond to a recording you don't connect with, regardless of the consensus amongst critics. I myself don't like 
Lieder much, except for Strauss's orchestral songs. Part of my problem is that I am not a German speaker, so I am not predisposed to respond to the minute word-pointing that many praise in the Schwarzkopf recordings. I find Norman plenty satisfying and beautiful, even having heard the Schwarzkopf/Szell & Schwarzkopf/Ackerman, Janowitz, Popp, Lott, Caballe, Price, Fleming versions. 
I like Te Kanawa, too, for the freshness of her voice and beauty of sound. But, then, that's me!


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## Tsaraslondon

Eramirez156 said:


> I know it is failing on my part, I will happily revisit these recordings including Schwarzkopf's because I do treasure their virtues, it is just for me, I turn to other recordings first.


Do try the Schwarzkopf/Szell again, and listen with text in hand, following along. It is a justly famous recording that has stood the test of time.


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## Tsaraslondon

MAS said:


> Eramirez156, I can't consider it a failing that you don't like Schwarzkopf's recording of TFLS - many don't, regardless of the reputation of that recording. Some don't respond to her voice and mannerisms - that's subjective, as is liking others singers's versions. You can't force yourself to respond to a recording you don't connect with, regardless of the consensus amongst critics. I myself don't like
> Lieder much, except for Strauss's orchestral songs. Part of my problem is that I am not a German speaker, so I am not predisposed to respond to the minute word-pointing that many praise in the Schwarzkopf recordings. I find Norman plenty satisfying and beautiful, even having heard the Schwarzkopf/Szell & Schwarzkopf/Ackerman, Janowitz, Popp, Lott, Caballe, Price, Fleming versions.
> I like Te Kanawa, too, for the freshness of her voice and beauty of sound. But, then, that's me!


How I dislike that word _mannerisms_. _All_ singers have their mannerisms. At least they do if they have any kind of individuality. Or, to put it another way, one person's idiosyncracies are another person's mannerisms.

I can't agree on Te Kanawa's recordings of the songs, which I find lacking in both idiosyncracy and mannerism, and ultimately just blandly beautiful. There is no real appreciation of the texts or the meaning of the songs, particularly in the earlier one with Davis conducting. She doesn't really have anything to say about them, whereas I feel that Popp, Lott, Norman, Fleming, Janowitz and, of course, Schwarzkopf all do.


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## Nocture In Blue

delete sorry a mistake.


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## MAS

GregMitchell said:


> I can't agree on Te Kanawa's recordings of the songs...


We'll have to agree to disagree!


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## Steatopygous

I have 12 accounts of the Four Last Songs. All have brought me pleasure. If I could rank them, and this might change according to mood,the first few would stay the same.
I'll have a go.
Schwarzkopf/Szell
della Casa/Bohm
Schwarzkopf/Ackermann
Janowitz/Karajan
Janowitz/Haitink
Norman/Masur
Fleming/thieleman
Te Kanawa/Davis
Te Kanawa/Solti
Wall/Davis
Kenny/Fritsch
Tomowa-Sintow/Karajan. This is last only because I don't actually remember it at all. Possibly that's a senior moment, or possibly I have never actually played it. 
Schwarzkopf has all the intelligence Greg attributed to her, as well as astounding technique; della Casa is possibly even more radiant in purity and tone.


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## Becca

I have always been a Te Kanawa admirer going back to a few years before she really established her fame so it was a no-brainer for me to buy her recording of Four Last Songs with Andrew Davis and I was happy with it. Then I got the Schwarzkopf recording and I can only describe the difference as being analogous to going from an old cathode ray TV to the latest wide screen, HD display, suddenly you see a level of clarity and detail that you weren't aware had been missing.


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## Steatopygous

Yes, Te Kanawa brings great beauty of tone, but Schwarzkopf brings much, much more. Of course, she imbibed that culture from her youth.


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## Pugg

Steatopygous said:


> I have 12 accounts of the Four Last Songs. All have brought me pleasure. If I could rank them, and this might change according to mood,the first few would stay the same.
> I'll have a go.
> Schwarzkopf/Szell
> della Casa/Bohm
> Schwarzkopf/Ackermann
> Janowitz/Karajan
> Janowitz/Haitink
> Norman/Masur
> Fleming/thieleman
> Te Kanawa/Davis
> Te Kanawa/Solti
> Wall/Davis
> Kenny/Fritsch
> Tomowa-Sintow/Karajan. This is last only because I don't actually remember it at all. Possibly that's a senior moment, or possibly I have never actually played it.
> Schwarzkopf has all the intelligence Greg attributed to her, as well as astounding technique; della Casa is possibly even more radiant in purity and tone.


*No Lucia Popp*? 
Your missing out Big time


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## Lord Lance

I have only heard one performance of this work off:









While the work did not interest me very much, I very much enjoyed Bohm's conducting. True master.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> I have only heard one performance of this work off:
> 
> View attachment 72082
> 
> 
> While the work did not interest me very much, I very much enjoyed Bohm's conducting. True master.


Hangs his head in shame. Can't believe that you didn't like the piece.


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## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> Hangs his head in shame. Can't believe that you didn't like the piece.


Oh, more vague posts. Did I tell you I disliked Bruckner for a long time. And Beethoven's symphonies. And Chopin. And Contemporary Music. Ah, things don't come easily to me it seems.

Then again, I always was the dumb kid.

If I can find Schubert's lieder bearable, then someone as incomparable and ingenious as Strauss should be no trouble. I still have Karajan to go. He is known for doing that magical thing to me.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> Oh, more vague posts. Did I tell you I disliked Bruckner for a long time. And Beethoven's symphonies. And Chopin. And Contemporary Music. Ah, things don't come easily to me it seems.
> 
> Then again, I always was the dumb kid.
> 
> If I can find Schubert's lieder bearable, then someone as incomparable and ingenious as Strauss should be no trouble. I still have Karajan to go. He is known for doing that magical thing to me.


Those three magic words repeat after me.... Lisa Della Casa.


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## Steatopygous

Pugg said:


> *No Lucia Popp*?
> Your missing out Big time


I'm very happy to accept that, and will rectify it as soon as may be. I'm a big Popp fan (need that extra P there), love her silvery voice and flexibility. And there's always room for one (or three) more Four Last Songs.


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## Steatopygous

Yes, sometimes you just have to wait to be ready. In my 20s I found Stravinsky astringent and hard to listen to (apart from the first ballets), but I bought lots anyway. Then, when in my 30s it just clicked, I had plenty to listen to and enjoy.
Moral: start collecting Four Last Songs.
Edit: Sorry, that post was intended for Lord Lance. I forgot to hit quote.


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## Tsaraslondon

I've spent the afternoon with these much loved songs, comparing and contrasting five favourite versions. They were.














































And here, in reverse order, is my assessment and rating.

5.The Norman I hadn't heard for ages, and, to tell the truth, had never really liked it. I realise now that, for me, the problem isn't Norman, who sings gloriously, if as usual in a somewhat generalised manner, but the unconscionably slow speeds. _Fruhling_ isn't too bad, but _September_ is quite slow and then the performance just gets slower, so slow that the music loses any sense of flow or line, and by the time we come to _Im Abendrot_ we've practically come to a complete halt. Tennstedt (for Popp) is slow too in the final song, but he still manages to make the music flow and sing. So Norman comes 5th.

4. Fleming. This is her second recording, and the beautiful voice has acquired a new richness in the lower register that is most attractive. Nor has she lost her ability to soar and float above the orchestra. She sings intelligently off the words too, but she does have an annoying habit of introducing jazzy little swoops and slides, which, to my mind, vitiate enjoyment. Thielemann is a warmly sympathetic conductor.

2= Hard to choose between Janowitz/Karajan and Popp/Tenstedt for second and third place, so I'll make them second equals. Popp I have a special affection for as I heard her do the songs with Tennstedt at the Royal Festival Hall at about the same time this recording was made. (_Tod und Verklarung_ was also on the programme). She too sings well off the words, her tone pure and silvery. Janowitz makes slightly less of the words, but is vocally superb, her gleaming soprano soaring above the orchestra.

1. Ultimately, though, I come back to Schwarzkopf and Szell, who remind us that these are, after all, _Lieder_ and not merely vocalises. They probe more deeply into the valedictory nature of the songs, and the recording has a rich autumnal glow, eminently suited to their approach. In the last song, when Schwarzkopf sings _So tief im Abendrot_ the effect is of a cathartic release, as if the whole cycle had been leading up to that moment. I don't hear that in any other performance, and for this reason, Schwarzkopf/Szell still, for me, eclipse all competition.

That said, I never tire of these wonderful songs, and hugely enjoyed my afternoon. Four of them I return to on a regular basis. The fifth (Norman) I still have equivocal feelings about.


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^
very good choices, Greg

My personal favourite is Lisa della Casa, VPO , Bohm (available at bargain price on Naxos)









followed by the Schwartzkopf, Janowitz and Mattila (BPO, Abbado). I also had the Norman at one stage but never warmed to it even though she is a magnificent singer. AS you say - a marvellous cycle that repays many encounters

.... and as a treat for the eyes as well, there is a lovely performance from the proms in 2014 by Anne Schwanewilms with beautiful camerawork and subtitles at


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## DavidA

Schwartskopf and Janowitz are complementary, one with supreme intelligence and the other with vocal beauty. Both accompanyments in their own way are incomperable, but Karajan's BPO is something really special. Don't forget an interesting disc Schwartskopf made with Karajan n the 50s although the sound is dated.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> Schwartskopf and Janowitz are complementary, one with supreme intelligence and the other with vocal beauty. Both accompanyments in their own way are incomperable, but Karajan's BPO is something really special. Don't forget an interesting disc Schwartskopf made with Karajan n the 50s although the sound is dated.


I have that Schwarzkopf/Karajan version too. It's actually live from a concert at the Royal Festival Hall. Karajan changes the order of the songs for some reason, and the speeds are quite a lot faster than in either of Schwarzkopf's studio recordings or in Karajan's recording with Janowitz. I like it, but it doesn't eclipse those above.


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## Ilarion

Pugg said:


> Lucia Popp.
> 
> Renée Fleming (first recording)
> 
> Kiri Te Kanawa.
> 
> Janowitz (on Philips with Haitink)


Renee Fleming does it for me, just as she did in Der Rosenkavalier. Pugg, you do find cute pictures of the cunning little vixen Renee Fleming - Before I met my wife I went around with a secret crush on Ms. Fleming.


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## Tsaraslondon

Headphone Hermit said:


> ^^^
> very good choices, Greg
> 
> My personal favourite is Lisa della Casa, VPO , Bohm (available at bargain price on Naxos)
> 
> View attachment 78386
> 
> 
> followed by the Schwartzkopf, Janowitz and Mattila (BPO, Abbado). I also had the Norman at one stage but never warmed to it even though she is a magnificent singer. AS you say - a marvellous cycle that repays many encounters
> 
> .... and as a treat for the eyes as well, there is a lovely performance from the proms in 2014 by Anne Schwanewilms with beautiful camerawork and subtitles at


I did listen to the final song in the Della Casa/Bohm version and found the intro very fast indeed, though Bohm does slow down a bit when Della Casa enters. Della Casa sings beautifully of course, but I don't feel she quite plumbs the songs for their deeper meaning the way Schwarzkopf does, especially in her later recording with Szell.


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## Vaneyes

Ilarion said:


> Renee Fleming does it for me, just as she did in Der Rosenkavalier. Pugg, you do find cute pictures of the cunning little vixen Renee Fleming - *Before I met my wife* I went around with a secret crush on Ms. Fleming.


Glad that was clarified. 

Did I mention Schafer (w. Abbado). No crush.


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## Steatopygous

Della Casa/Bohm has just been re-released on the brilliant ultra-budget Universal Australia label Eloquence. Her 4 Last Songs with Bohm are combined with a 1957 recital of lieder by Schubert, Brahms, R. Strauss and Wolf. Superb.


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## Pugg

Ilarion said:


> Renee Fleming does it for me, just as she did in Der Rosenkavalier. Pugg, you do find cute pictures of the cunning little vixen Renee Fleming - Before I met my wife I went around with a secret crush on Ms. Fleming.


Guilt pleasures :tiphat:


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## Ilarion

Pugg said:


> Guilt pleasures :tiphat:


Its almost a sinfully guilty pleasure:cheers:


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## Tsaraslondon

Ilarion said:


> Its almost a sinfully guilty pleasure:cheers:


I don't understand why anyone should feel guilty about enjoying the Fleming performance, though I'll take the second over the first, but, then I don't really understand why one should feel guilty about pleasure - any pleasure! :devil:


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## kerrcophony

Apologies - duplicate of message below.


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## kerrcophony

I am looking to buy my first CD of "Four Last Songs". Knowing me, I will probably buy several versions eventually! For my first copy I would like an in- print, stereo version, and most importantly with the German and English text of the songs in the booklet. I have listened to various samples and not heard a version I didn't like. The various Schwarzkopf/Szell reissues seem to have the text on a CD-ROM portion of the disc (a pet hate of mine). I am not bothered about the coupling, whether songs or orchestral pieces. Other versions I am interested in include Isokoski (so gorgeous in Sibelius), Norman (especially the 3CD "3 Classic Albums" package) and Janowitz/Karajan. Can anyone help me with this textual quest please?


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## Tsaraslondon

kerrcophony said:


> I am looking to buy my first CD of "Four Last Songs". Knowing me, I will probably buy several versions eventually! For my first copy I would like an in- print, stereo version, and most importantly with the German and English text of the songs in the booklet. I have listened to various samples and not heard a version I didn't like. The various Schwarzkopf/Szell reissues seem to have the text on a CD-ROM portion of the disc (a pet hate of mine). I am not bothered about the coupling, whether songs or orchestral pieces. Other versions I am interested in include Isokoski (so gorgeous in Sibelius), Norman (especially the 3CD "3 Classic Albums" package) and Janowitz/Karajan. Can anyone help me with this textual quest please?


The GROC Schwarzlopf/Szell version definitely comes with texts and translations in the booklet, as does its previous full price incarnation. You should be able to find both quite easily on Amazon Marketplace.

This was my first recording of the _Vier letzte Lieder_, and it is still my favourite, though there are others I enjoy as well (see above). I just think that Schwarzkopf and Szell probe more deeply into the texts than any other.


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## SixFootScowl

GregMitchell said:


> I don't understand why anyone should feel guilty about enjoying the Fleming performance, though I'll take the second over the first, but, then I don't really understand why one should feel guilty about pleasure - any pleasure! :devil:


Well I guess to use an extreme example, what about someone who finds pleasure in inflicting torture upon unwilling subjects?


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## SixFootScowl

A nice deal for Four Last Songs with Janowitz (that I recently picked up) is this one which has a lot of other tracks included:








TRACK LIST
1. Wie Nahte Mir Der Schlummer... Leise, Leise
2. Der Freischutz: Und Ob Die Wolke
3. Oberon: Ozean, Du Ungeheuer!
4. Dich, Teure Halle
5. Tannhauser: Allmacht'ge Jungfrau
6. Einsam In Truben Tagen
7. Lohengrin: Euch Luften
8. Die Bist Die Ruh'
9. Die Forelle
10. Vier Letzte Lieder: I. Fruhling
11. Vier Letzte Lieder: II. September
12. Vier Letzte Lieder: III. Beim Schlafengehen
13. Vier Letzte Lieder: IV. Im Abendrot
Amazon Listing: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005ND3U


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## kerrcophony

Thank you Greg and Florestan for your recommendations. I've done some more research, and learn from Ondine's site that the Isokoski recording comes with a 

"Booklet with liner notes in English, German, French and Finnish and the song lyrics in the original language and in English" 

Now that's what I call comprehensive! So I will go with that one for now, and acquire later the Schwarzkopf in the new retro packaging, and the Janowitz with the Tod und Verklärung and Metamorphosen coupling.


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## Tsaraslondon

Florestan said:


> Well I guess to use an extreme example, what about someone who finds pleasure in inflicting torture upon unwilling subjects?


That sort of person is unlikely to feel guilt about anything, I'd have thought.

But obviously I was talking about pleasure in the sense of pleasure that does nobody else any harm, something that most religions seem to have a big problem with I find.

Anyway, let's not get off topic. We are here to talk about Strauss's _Vier letzte Lieder_ and I feel no guilt about reveling in their beauties, whether I'm listening to Schwarzkopf, Janowitz, Popp or Fleming.


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## kerrcophony

More research shows that the Isokoski disc was reissued with a disc of Finnish songs in a double CD slipcase as "Essential highlights of Soile Isokoski soprano" for the price of one CD. It was a limited edition to celebrate the Ondine label's 25th anniversary.









Copies of the double pack are still around, so it's a no-brainer to order a copy. Just a shame it won't be here in time for Christmas!


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## Tsaraslondon

kerrcophony said:


> View attachment 79255
> 
> 
> More research shows that the Isokoski disc was reissued with a disc of Finnish songs in a double CD slipcase as "Essential highlights of Soile Isokoski soprano" for the price of one CD. It was a limited edition to celebrate the Ondine label's 25th anniversary.
> 
> View attachment 79256
> 
> 
> Copies of the double pack are still around, so it's a no-brainer to order a copy. Just a shame it won't be here in time for Christmas!


But do you get texts and translations in the double pack?


----------



## kerrcophony

GregMitchell said:


> But do you get texts and translations in the double pack?


Good Point, Greg. Seems likely, although I can't be 100% sure. The Ondine site states: "LIMITED OFFER - 2 popular CDs in one slipcase, available for less than the price of 1 CD"

I have a previous Ondine repack of the outstanding Mikko Franck Sibelius 4 Legends and En Saga. That came with a natty card slipcase as another (different) anniversary issue, but was otherwise identical to the original issue. As I am a bit of a sucker for anything Finnish and for Isokoski, I will take the risk. I'm a bit broke, so value for money is another consideration for me. I will order today and report back here ASAP.


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## SixFootScowl

GregMitchell said:


> That sort of person is unlikely to feel guilt about anything, I'd have thought.


Good point. And yes, we'll leave the religious aspect of pleasure / guilty pleasure to a different forum.


----------



## DavidA

kerrcophony said:


> I am looking to buy my first CD of "Four Last Songs". Knowing me, I will probably buy several versions eventually! For my first copy I would like an in- print, stereo version, and most importantly with the German and English text of the songs in the booklet. I have listened to various samples and not heard a version I didn't like. The various Schwarzkopf/Szell reissues seem to have the text on a CD-ROM portion of the disc (a pet hate of mine). I am not bothered about the coupling, whether songs or orchestral pieces. Other versions I am interested in include Isokoski (so gorgeous in Sibelius), Norman (especially the 3CD "3 Classic Albums" package) and Janowitz/Karajan. Can anyone help me with this textual quest please?


Texts in English

http://intranslation.brooklynrail.o...prise-the-final-song-cycle-by-richard-strauss


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## Woodduck

GregMitchell said:


> I don't understand why anyone should feel guilty about enjoying the Fleming performance, though I'll take the second over the first, but, then I don't really understand why one should feel guilty about pleasure - any pleasure! :devil:


That is quite enough of that, Mr. Mitchell!

(You may PM me with further details.)


----------



## damianjb1

Steatopygous said:


> I have 12 accounts of the Four Last Songs. All have brought me pleasure. If I could rank them, and this might change according to mood,the first few would stay the same.
> I'll have a go.
> Schwarzkopf/Szell
> della Casa/Bohm
> Schwarzkopf/Ackermann
> Janowitz/Karajan
> Janowitz/Haitink
> Norman/Masur
> Fleming/thieleman
> Te Kanawa/Davis
> Te Kanawa/Solti
> Wall/Davis
> Kenny/Fritsch
> Tomowa-Sintow/Karajan. This is last only because I don't actually remember it at all. Possibly that's a senior moment, or possibly I have never actually played it.
> Schwarzkopf has all the intelligence Greg attributed to her, as well as astounding technique; della Casa is possibly even more radiant in purity and tone.


I'm listening to the Tomowa-Sintow/Karajan version now. It's not the greatest version but it's beautifully sung and played. It's a but rushed for my taste. I wish he'd give her a little more time.


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## damianjb1

No-one seems to have mentioned Anna Netrebko's version.


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## Pugg

damianjb1 said:


> No-one seems to have mentioned Anna Netrebko's version.


To easy this one


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## DavidA

damianjb1 said:


> I'm listening to the Tomowa-Sintow/Karajan version now. It's not the greatest version but it's beautifully sung and played. It's a but rushed for my taste. I wish he'd give her a little more time.


Bit rushed? Listen to the Bohm!


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## kerrcophony

DavidA said:


> Texts in English
> 
> http://intranslation.brooklynrail.o...prise-the-final-song-cycle-by-richard-strauss


Thank you David!


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## kerrcophony

My "Essential highlights of Soile Isokoski soprano" set arrived today. It was quite a bargain at under £13 for two CDs from Amazon Marketplace seller englishpostbox (MDT under a different guise I believe). For this price you get both the Strauss Disc and the Finnish Songs one in their original formats and presentations. The bright red slipcase housing the two discs is an acquired taste, however.






















The Strauss disc comes with a 36-page booklet featuring notes on the songs, singer, orchestra (RSOB) and conductor (Marek Janowski) in English, Finnish, German and French. There are texts for all 15 songs in German and English. The performances are ravishing, with gorgeous modern sound and well worth a punt. The Four Last Songs are played last...preceded by Das Rosenband, Ich wollt ein Straeusslein binden, Saeusle liebe Myrte, Als mir dein Lied erklang, Befreit, Ruhe meine Seele, Wiegenlied, Meinem Kinde, Zueignung, Morgen, Die heiligen drei Koenige.

The Finnish songs disc is another gorgeous one. This time there are only 32 pages in the booklet! The accompaniment is by Marita Viitasalo on piano. There is no Sibelius or Rautavaara here, instead more obscure gems seldom heard outside of Suomi. I have a soft spot for anything Finnish, so this disc will be played rather than filed away as an interesting curio. Don't forget that Soile has a gorgeous Sibelius songs Hybrid SACD still available on Ondine.

In summary I recommend it to all, and it's nice to support an independent label like Ondine, rather than Warners and the others who won't provide printed texts. At the price, it's a steal. I will post a picture or two once my camera battery has charged.


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## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> Bit rushed? Listen to the Bohm!


As you have often pointed out, Karajan's performances of the same work can differ quite markedly. I don't know the version with Tomova-Sintov, but I think the tempi on the one with Janowitz just about perfect. He's a mite too fast in the live one with Schwarzkopf, though, and I prefer her studio performances with Ackermann and Szell respectively.


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## kerrcophony

Here are a couple of low-res pictures of the Isokoski set. In the second one, the booklet is open at the 4 Last Songs.


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## SixFootScowl

kerrcophony said:


> Here are a couple of low-res pictures of the Isokoski set. In the second one, the booklet is open at the 4 Last Songs.
> 
> View attachment 79775
> 
> 
> View attachment 79776


I checked out the clips on Allmusic. It is a fine set and she has a very beautiful voice. I am resisting purchasing it because I have many singer aria sets already and lately prefer listening to complete operas.


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## kerrcophony

Who's got the Four Last Songs on Blu-ray Audio then? The famous Janowitz/Karajan set is available in this hi-res format as part of the 12-disc Karajan Strauss box.

















There are 11 CDs and one Blu-ray disc. Bizarrely three of the CDs are devoted to a mono 1960 live recording of Der Rosenkavalier. Is that likely to appeal to the sort of collector who wants Blu-ray sound? I get the impression that the lavish LP-size packaging includes the libretto for Der Rosenkavalier but not the texts for Four Last Songs. Surely not?


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## NightHawk

Jessye Norman - I love the slow tempos, which no other singer in my opinion can manage re breath control and sheer beauty - _Im Abendrot_ is as profound a performance of it I have ever heard. All other recordings now seem too fast in this particular song, always the last of the four, of which the first three are sometimes in slightly different order since it is not a cycle.

Heather Harper's performance is very touching - recorded slightly past her prime, but the voice is so rich.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

NightHawk said:


> Jessye Norman - I love the slow tempos, which no other singer in my opinion can manage re breath control and sheer beauty - _Im Abendrot_ is as profound a performance of it I have ever heard. All other recordings now seem too fast in this particular song, always the last of the four, of which the first three are sometimes in slightly different order since it is not a cycle.
> 
> Heather Harper's performance is very touching - recorded slightly past her prime, but the voice is so rich.


My impressions of the Norman performance are quite different. I find it too slow from the outset, and it just gets slower and slower till it almost comes to a halt. Nor do I find any great revelations in Norman's performance. As ever, she sings with great generosity of spirit, but I find her emotional response generalised and too unspecific. Schwarzkopf's performance, especially in her recording with Szell, just slays me, and when she sings _So tief im Abendrot_ towards the end of the final song, it has a cathartic release I don't hear in any other performances.

I did a comparative listen recently of Norman/Masur, Popp/Tennstedt, Janowitz/Karajan, Fleming/Thielemann and Schwarzkopf/Szell, all of them personal favourites and all justly famous recordings, and I placed Norman/Masur 5th in this company.


----------



## Pugg

Not to missed:

​*R. Strauss: Four Last songs / Orchestral songs
Dame Kiri Te Kana *
Andrew Davis conducting


----------



## NightHawk

GregMitchell said:


> My impressions of the Norman performance are quite different. I find it too slow from the outset, and it just gets slower and slower till it almost comes to a halt. Nor do I find any great revelations in Norman's performance. As ever, she sings with great generosity of spirit, but I find her emotional response generalised and too unspecific. Schwarzkopf's performance, especially in her recording with Szell, just slays me, and when she sings _So tief im Abendrot_ towards the end of the final song, it has a cathartic release I don't hear in any other performances.
> 
> I did a comparative listen recently of Norman/Masur, Popp/Tennstedt, Janowitz/Karajan, Fleming/Thielemann and Schwarzkopf/Szell, all of them personal favourites and all justly famous recordings, and I placed Norman/Masur 5th in this company.


I do admire Jessye Norman, but do not like all her projects (Bluebeard's Castle, Erwartung, Carmen, come to mind quickly; there are others). I think you are saying she makes little or no emotional connection with the words and perhaps that her approach to performance is only the beauty of the voice, clarity of diction, intonation, rhythm etc. I understand how that could be the case. I do often listen to the very beautiful Szell and Schwarzkopf recording, which is probably the benchmark recording for many people. And, I very much appreciate your insights and time.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

NightHawk said:


> I do admire Jessye Norman, but do not like all her projects (Bluebeard's Castle, Erwartung, Carmen, come to mind quickly; there are others). I think you are saying she makes little or no emotional connection with the words and perhaps that her approach to performance is only the beauty of the voice, clarity of diction, intonation, rhythm etc. I understand how that could be the case. I do often listen to the very beautiful Szell and Schwarzkopf recording, which is probably the benchmark recording for many people. And, I very much appreciate your insights and time.


Something like that, yes, though I would not want to suggest that Norman was a cool or emotionless singer, when clearly she wasn't. But, yes there is something generalised in her response not just to the words, but to the composer she is singing. At least that's my impression.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> I don't understand why anyone should feel guilty about enjoying the Fleming performance, though I'll take the second over the first, but, then* I don't really understand why one should feel guilty about pleasure - any pleasure! *:devil:


Absolutely! Tell it to the mountain, 'Retha.

'Be' the sexiness and sensuality you want to see. . .

Acetic: "Marsch, stop blocking the view."

Marschallin: "I 'am' the view."


----------



## drnlaw

For sheer beauty of voice, Lucia Popp. For overall effect, Gundula Janowitz. I’m sorry, but I’m just not a Schwarzkopf fan in general.


----------



## Pugg

drnlaw said:


> For sheer beauty of voice, Lucia Popp. For overall effect, Gundula Janowitz. I'm sorry, but I'm just not a Schwarzkopf fan in general.


That's what I am saying all al along :tiphat:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

drnlaw said:


> For sheer beauty of voice, Lucia Popp. For overall effect, Gundula Janowitz. I'm sorry, but I'm just not a Schwarzkopf fan in general.


You don't think Schwarzkopf and Janowitz had beautiful voices?

Well I like all three, but Schwarzkopf still reigns supreme for me. I won't go into the reasons again. I've done so in great detail above.

http://www.talkclassical.com/33688-richard-strauss-four-last-post980552.html#post980552


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## Pugg

See for yourselves :tiphat:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Pugg said:


> See for yourselves :tiphat:


I think we got it. Calm down. Nobody's denying Lucia Popp had a beautiful voice and recorded a wonderful version of the _Vier letzte Lieder_. I have it. I love it. I even heard her do it live with Tennstedt. Did you?


----------



## DavidA

I can never see this 'either / or' thing. Why not just enjoy each performance?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

DavidA said:


> I can never see this 'either / or' thing. Why not just enjoy each performance?


I don't think stating a preference is wrong, but it doesn't stop me enjoying lots of different performances. I love the _Vier letzte Lieder_. I have quite a few recordings and I love them all, though that doesn't stop me having a slight preference for one of them, nor does it stop me listening to, and enjoying, the others.


----------



## Balthazar

Pugg said:


> See for yourselves :tiphat:


Beautiful! Thanks for posting this.

Jessye Norman is still my favorite but Lucia Popp is now a close second.

I used to enjoy the Schwarzkopf, but the more I listen to it the more I realize that what I once regarded as expressiveness is simply her typical overly precious over-emoting.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Balthazar said:


> Beautiful! Thanks for posting this.
> 
> Jessye Norman is still my favorite but Lucia Popp is now a close second.
> 
> I used to enjoy the Schwarzkopf, but the more I listen to it the more I realize that what I once regarded as expressiveness is simply her typical overly precious over-emoting.


Or your prejudices and preconceptions showing again.


----------



## Balthazar

GregMitchell said:


> Or your prejudices and preconceptions showing again.


Could you please explain what you mean by this?

As I previously enjoyed it, "preconceptions" doesn't seem to apply. And I have no idea what you mean by "prejudices."


----------



## Badinerie

I havnt read the other 12 pages yet, but.....










'Nuff said.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Badinerie said:



I havnt read the other 12 pages yet, but.....










'Nuff said.

Click to expand...

*









_Die blonde Herzogin über Alles._


----------



## Woodduck

In light of the above discussion I had to listen again to Jessye Norman in these songs. We should recall that Strauss wrote them with the rich, powerful voice of Kirsten Flagstad in mind - or, at the very least, he chose her to premiere them. She, unfortunately, no longer had the freedom and ease on high to do them justice, as can be heard in the recording that was made on the occasion. But I'm going to venture the opinion that had Strauss heard Norman's recording he would have heard his vision of the work fulfilled.

My favorite performances of the songs have always been Schwarzkopf's by a fair margin, with perhaps a slight preference for her fleeter, less micromanaged earlier version with Otto Ackerman. Given that preference, I'm almost surprised to find that Norman really overwhelms even my usual dislike of slow tempos in this music (which caused me to dislike Rene Fleming's first recording). This is simply another kind of experience altogether, from Schwarzkopf/Ackerman or anyone else, and the unique quality and magnitude of Norman's voice cause me to expect different things from it, not only vocally but interpretively. As the songs proceed I find myself more and more astonished at the ease and splendor of the sound as it mounts the music wave upon wave. This kind of technical security is rare in dramatic voices, and Norman's confidence in the soprano tessitura combined with a deep, almost contralto-like timbre here make an effect I can only call uncanny - and magnificent. When we come to the final song, "Im Abendrot," Masur sets a tempo that would sound incongruous with a light voice, but Norman fills out the spacious musical landscape with a tonal amplitude and a breadth of phrasing that makes of it the most majestic of valedictions. 

The Olympian majesty of Norman's singing and her sensitive but never fussy projection of the text, with Masur giving her all the room she needs to spread her eagle wings, challenge my preconceptions of what these songs should sound like, and I find it a very valid alternative to the lighter, lyric-soprano sound picture we are used to. This must be what Strauss had imagined Flagstad would give him, and it's a pity he couldn't be around to hear it.


----------



## silentio

Woodduck said:


> In light of the above discussion I had to listen again to Jessye Norman in these songs. We should recall that *Strauss wrote them with the rich, powerful voice of Kirsten Flagstad in mind - or, at the very least, he chose her to premiere them. She, unfortunately, no longer had the freedom and ease on high to do them justice, as can be heard in the recording that was made on the occasion*. But I'm going to venture the opinion that had Strauss heard Norman's recording he would have heard his vision of the work fulfilled.
> 
> My favorite performances of the songs have always been Schwarzkopf's by a fair margin, with perhaps a slight preference for her fleeter, less micromanaged earlier version with Otto Ackerman. Given that preference, I'm almost surprised to find that Norman really overwhelms even my usual dislike of slow tempos in this music (which caused me to dislike Rene Fleming's first recording). This is simply another kind of experience altogether, from Schwarzkopf/Ackerman or anyone else, and the unique quality and magnitude of Norman's voice cause me to expect different things from it, not only vocally but interpretively. As the songs proceed I find myself more and more astonished at the ease and splendor of the sound as it mounts the music wave upon wave. This kind of technical security is rare in dramatic voices, and Norman's confidence in the soprano tessitura combined with a deep, almost contralto-like timbre here make an effect I can only call uncanny - and magnificent. When we come to the final song, "Im Abendrot," Masur sets a tempo that would sound incongruous with a light voice, but Norman fills out the spacious musical landscape with a tonal amplitude and a breadth of phrasing that makes of it the most majestic of valedictions.
> 
> The Olympian majesty of Norman's singing and her sensitive but never fussy projection of the text, with Masur giving her all the room she needs to spread her eagle wings, challenge my preconceptions of what these songs should sound like, and I find it a very valid alternative to the lighter, lyric-soprano sound picture we are used to. This must be what Strauss had imagined Flagstad would give him, and it's a pity he couldn't be around to hear it.


Precisely. It was Strauss who chose Flagstad after all


----------



## Pugg

And I am still staying with _Lucia Popp,_ not what others saying or writhing about it :tiphat:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Woodduck said:



In light of the above discussion I had to listen again to Jessye Norman in these songs. We should recall that Strauss wrote them with the rich, powerful voice of Kirsten Flagstad in mind - or, at the very least, he chose her to premiere them. She, unfortunately, no longer had the freedom and ease on high to do them justice, as can be heard in the recording that was made on the occasion. But I'm going to venture the opinion that had Strauss heard Norman's recording he would have heard his vision of the work fulfilled.

Click to expand...

*









_Post hoc ergo propter hoc._

Strauss passed away before Schwarzkopf even came into her own.

Had he heard her _Four Last Songs_ with Szell he'd be having a grand _fête _at the _'Louvre'_ for Her. _;D_


----------



## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Post hoc ergo propter hoc._
> 
> Strauss passed away before Schwarzkopf even came into her own.
> 
> Had he heard her _Four Last Songs_ with Szell he'd be having a grand _fête _at the _'Louvre'_ for Her. _;D_


_Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ has to do with an improper assumption of causation. I don't see the relevance. What's assumed to have caused what?

Yes, I'm sure Strauss would have enjoyed Schwarzkopf's silvery timbre and fine-tuned artistry. I'm sure he would have appreciated a variety of singers and interpreters of his work. It's to be hoped that we all can.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Woodduck said:


> In light of the above discussion I had to listen again to Jessye Norman in these songs. We should recall that Strauss wrote them with the rich, powerful voice of Kirsten Flagstad in mind - or, at the very least, he chose her to premiere them. She, unfortunately, no longer had the freedom and ease on high to do them justice, as can be heard in the recording that was made on the occasion. But I'm going to venture the opinion that had Strauss heard Norman's recording he would have heard his vision of the work fulfilled.
> 
> My favorite performances of the songs have always been Schwarzkopf's by a fair margin, with perhaps a slight preference for her fleeter, less micromanaged earlier version with Otto Ackerman. Given that preference, I'm almost surprised to find that Norman really overwhelms even my usual dislike of slow tempos in this music (which caused me to dislike Rene Fleming's first recording). This is simply another kind of experience altogether, from Schwarzkopf/Ackerman or anyone else, and the unique quality and magnitude of Norman's voice cause me to expect different things from it, not only vocally but interpretively. As the songs proceed I find myself more and more astonished at the ease and splendor of the sound as it mounts the music wave upon wave. This kind of technical security is rare in dramatic voices, and Norman's confidence in the soprano tessitura combined with a deep, almost contralto-like timbre here make an effect I can only call uncanny - and magnificent. When we come to the final song, "Im Abendrot," Masur sets a tempo that would sound incongruous with a light voice, but Norman fills out the spacious musical landscape with a tonal amplitude and a breadth of phrasing that makes of it the most majestic of valedictions.
> 
> The Olympian majesty of Norman's singing and her sensitive but never fussy projection of the text, with Masur giving her all the room she needs to spread her eagle wings, challenge my preconceptions of what these songs should sound like, and I find it a very valid alternative to the lighter, lyric-soprano sound picture we are used to. This must be what Strauss had imagined Flagstad would give him, and it's a pity he couldn't be around to hear it.


I listened to this performance again recently, and, though I agree in essence with much that you say, I simply could not take the slow speeds. It starts slow and just seems to get slower and slower, until it almost grinds to a halt.

Tennstedt for Popp, Szell for Schwarzkopf, Karajan for Janowitz and Thielmann for Fleming (her second recording) are not exactly speed merchants, nowhere near as fast as Bohm for Della Casa and Solti for Te Kanawa, but their tempi make more sense to me. The music still has shape and impulse, whereas with Masur it just seems to meander on.

I know Strauss wrote the songs with Flagstad in mind, but, given his liking for light soprano voices (he thought Elisabeth Schumann would make a good Salome, remember), I think, and I realise this is pure conjecture, his preference might well have ended up being for one of the lighter voiced lyric sopranos named above.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> *Woodduck: Post hoc ergo propter hoc has to do with an improper assumption of causation. I don't see the relevance. What's assumed to have caused what?*


Of course I was referring to your idea that had King Richard II heard Jessye Norman's _Four Last Songs _then his reason for composing them would have been fulfilled.



> *Woodduck: Yes, I'm sure Strauss would have enjoyed Schwarzkopf's silvery timbre and fine-tuned artistry. I'm sure he would have appreciated a variety of singers and interpreters of his work. It's to be hoped that we all can.*


"_Strauss would have appreciated a variety of singers and interpreters of his work_". . . just as long as one keeps in mind that his 'ideal' was Flagstad. . . right? :angel:


----------



## Woodduck

^^^ I think you've exaggerated my position slightly, but then my burgundy (I don't quite own up to purple) prose does tend to have that effect. I wouldn't say that any individual singer was Strauss's "ideal," but we can be pretty sure that he wouldn't have chosen Flagstad to premiere the songs if he didn't find a large dramatic soprano voice very suitable (and perhaps, though not necessarily, preferable) for them. The question is: does Norman's performance bear out the supposition? I think it does. Flagstad was in her fifties then, and Strauss probably knew her voice in its prime. Too bad he didn't write the songs a decade earlier. As to Greg's point about his feeling that Elisabeth Schumann would make a good Salome, I suspect that was more a comment on the girlish, silvery quality of her timbre than on her voice's size, but it might even be taken to show that he tended to _underestimate_ the size of voices needed to sing his music.

I have no reservations whatever about Schwarzkopf's performances of these songs, which really leave nothing to be desired. But I would not be without the unique experience of Jessye Norman's dramatic soprano in its prime, bringing a dimension of majesty to them that no lyric voice could equal. Strauss would have been delighted with them both, I'm sure. As a music collector, I feel a need for no others.


----------



## silentio

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad was in her fifties then, and Strauss probably knew her voice in its prime. Too bad he didn't write the songs a decade earlier.


I would be surprised if Strauss didn't hear Kirsten in her prime . By the way, had Leider or Lubin been still active at that time, Strauss would have definitely let the diva share the songs. Imagine how Leider would soar gleamingly in _Frühling_ or Lubin let her autumnal voice fade out at the end _September_. Yes, I can totally picture these great _hochdramatische_ soprano do justice to the Vier letzte Lieder.



Woodduck said:


> As to Greg's point about his feeling that Elisabeth Schumann would make a good Salome, I suspect that was more a comment on the girlish, silvery quality of her timbre than on her voice's size, but it might even be taken to show that he tended to _underestimate_ the size of voices needed to sing his music.


Strauss called Salomea Kruszelnicka, one of the reigning divas at La Scala, "perfect" as Salome and Elektra. It is true that she is a monster of an artist (she sung everything from Verdi, Meyerbeer, hardcore Wagner, Strauss to Puccini and popular verismo), but her voice indeed sounds "light" (in a good way) with impressive coloratura, nothing like Nilsson, Varnay, Modl, Behrens at all.

Here is her much celebrated _L'altra notte_, as haunting as the Muzio's version:






Or a lovely Tosti song:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

silentio said:


> Strauss called Salomea Kruszelnicka, one of the reigning divas at La Scala, "perfect" as Salome and Elektra. It is true that she is a monster of an artist (she sung everything from Verdi, Meyerbeer, hardcore Wagner, Strauss to Puccini and popular verismo), but her voice indeed sounds "light" (in a good way) with impressive coloratura, nothing like Nilsson, Varnay, Modl, Behrens at all.
> 
> Here is her much celebrated _L'altra notte_, as haunting as the Muzio's version:


Well my favourite Salome has always been the silvery voiced Welitsch, who for a short time reigned supreme in the role. The 1944 performance of the final scene (with von Matacic) and the 1949 Met broadcast with Reiner are absolutely superb, though, by the time of the 1952 broadcast, her voice is already losing its sheen. She made a recording of the *Vier letzte Lieder* with piano in 1953, but it's not really satisfactory. One misses the textures of the orchestra, and Welitsch, the voice now somewhat white and strained on top, tends to the monochrome, and she tends to exteriorise the music.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> Well my favourite Salome has always been the silvery voiced Welitsch, who for a short time reigned supreme in the role. *The 1944 performance of the final scene (with von Matacic) and the 1949 Met broadcast with Reiner are absolutely superb*, though, by the time of the 1952 broadcast, her voice is already losing its sheen. She made a recording of the *Vier letzte Lieder* with piano in 1953, but it's not really satisfactory. One misses the textures of the orchestra, and Welitsch, the voice now somewhat white and strained on top, tends to the monochrome, and she tends to exteriorise the music.


I need to hear the '44 and '49 Welitsches.

I think I may already have them. . . I have some Salomes by her; I just can't remember which.

Thrilling singing, huh?

Yeeesssssssssss. _;D_


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Marschallin Blair said:


> I need to hear the '44 and '49 Welitsches.
> 
> I think I may already have them. . . I have some Salomes by her; I just can't remember which.
> 
> Thrilling singing, huh?
> 
> Yeeesssssssssss. _;D_


The '44 Final Scene was on an EMI Historical issue (coupled to arias from *Tosca*, *La Boheme*, *Aida*, *Der Freischutz* and *Eugene Onegin*).










The '49 Met broadcast is more difficult to get hold of than the '52. I have it on a Melodram issue, which you might be able to find somewhere


----------



## Marschallin Blair

^ I don't remember either of those covers- so I ordered the EMI Historical Issue but I'm still looking online for the elusive '49 Reiner MET broadcast. . . .


----------



## Tietjens Stolz

Marschallin Blair said:


> ^ I don't remember either of those covers- so I ordered the EMI Historical Issue but I'm still looking online for the elusive '49 Reiner MET broadcast. . . .


http://www.amazon.com/Puccini-Schic...8400537&sr=1-5&keywords=strauss+salome+reiner


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Panorama said:



http://www.amazon.com/Puccini-Schic...8400537&sr=1-5&keywords=strauss+salome+reiner

Click to expand...

*Thanks, Pannie. <Kiss.> I 'saw' that one.

- But I want the Golden Melodram for the better transfer quality.

Or is the Guild as good?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Marschallin Blair said:


> ^ I don't remember either of those covers- so I ordered the EMI Historical Issue but I'm still looking online for the elusive '49 Reiner MET broadcast. . . .


That 1944 closing scene is off the charts. You will love it!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


GregMitchell said:



That 1944 closing scene is off the charts. You will love it!

Click to expand...

*


















'Beautiful' and 'bad' always are always top shelf for me.

But 'spoiled' and 'sassy' aren't far behind though.


----------



## Pugg

Strauss: Four Last Songs (Vier Letzte Lieder) - Kiri Te Kanawa


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Strauss: Four Last Songs (Vier Letzte Lieder) - Kiri Te Kanawa


Aah! Strauss' most emotional songs sung by opera's least emotional singer. Not my cup of poison I'm afraid.


----------



## Barbebleu

Marschallin Blair said:


> 'Beautiful' and 'bad' always are always top shelf for me.
> 
> But 'spoiled' and 'sassy' aren't far behind though.


Well, that brightened my day no end!:lol:


----------



## Badinerie

GregMitchell said:


> That 1944 closing scene is off the charts. You will love it!


Oh yes! I have the HMV Treasury edition lp. I found the Puccini songs long ago on '78 which first whetted my appetite for Ljuba. I havnt hear her Four Last Songs though.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Barbebleu said:



Aah! Strauss' most emotional songs sung by opera's least emotional singer. Not my cup of poison I'm afraid.

Click to expand...

*









. . . or even quaaludes.

Kiri almost sounds medicated in parts of her Davis _Four Last Songs_.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Aah! Strauss' most emotional songs sung by opera's least emotional singer. Not my cup of poison I'm afraid.


I a so glad that we do not have to agree on everything on this forum.
One thing's for sure, she does it better with the best intentions.
That's what's moving me.:tiphat:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Badinerie said:


> Oh yes! I have the HMV Treasury edition lp. I found the Puccini songs long ago on '78 which first whetted my appetite for Ljuba. I havnt hear her Four Last Songs though.


You're not missing much. It's on this two disc set, which is a bit of a mixed bag, to be honest.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Barbebleu said:


> Well, that brightened my day no end!:lol:


Good for you - I had no idea what it meant


----------



## Balthazar

Pugg said:


> Strauss: Four Last Songs (Vier Letzte Lieder) - Kiri Te Kanawa


Lovely! Thanks for posting that.

Jessye Norman and Lucia Popp are still in my top two slots.


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . or even quaaludes.
> 
> Kiri almost sounds medicated in parts of her Davis _Four Last Songs_.


Still a far sight better than Betty Blackhead's mincing over-emoting with Szell.

The only authentic feeling Schwarzkopf expresses on that recording is cramps.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Still a far sight better than Betty Blackhead's mincing over-emoting with Szell.
> 
> *The only authentic feeling Schwarzkopf expresses on that recording is cramps.*


Cramps or author-itis from the so-called criticism?


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> *Cramps or author-itis from the so-called criticism?*


More likely IBS from the so-called witticism.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



More likely IBS from the so-called witticism.

Click to expand...

*

But most likely that my perfection makes others feel less than perfect.










- Liz's too of course.


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> But most likely that *my perfection* makes others feel less than perfect.
> 
> *- Liz's too of course.*


Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is one of the last human beings one should proffer as a paragon of perfection.

But that has not much to do with her _Four Last Songs_ which ring false at every turn.

Jessye Norman and Lucia Popp remain at the fore.


----------



## Barbebleu

Marschallin Blair said:


> 'Beautiful' and 'bad' always are always top shelf for me.
> 
> But 'spoiled' and 'sassy' aren't far behind though.


BTW who are we looking at here. It looks like Stratas as Salome and Claudia Cardinale in a very fetching big hat with, it looks like, Tom Waits laughing in the background!! None of which makes any sense but who cares!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is one of the last human beings one should proffer as a paragon of perfection.

Click to expand...

*









- Arresting beauty.

- Beautifully-expressed emotions.

- _The Four Last Songs._

The aesthetic things that truly matter are what should in all decency be discussed in a music and arts forum.

The National Socialism that people are forced to endure under the Nazis or Obama are more suitably appropriate to a politics thread.


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> The aesthetic things that truly matter are what should in all decency be discussed in a music and arts forum.


I couldn't agree more. Claims of individuals' purported perfection have no place here.



Marschallin Blair said:


> - Arresting beauty.
> 
> - Beautifully-expressed emotions.
> 
> - _The Four Last Songs._


But if these are what we are looking for, look no further than Jessye Norman.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



I couldn't agree more. Claims of individuals' purported perfection have no place here.

Click to expand...

*How about factual ones?
*



Balthazar said:



But if these are what we are looking for, look no further than Jessye Norman.

Click to expand...

*Jessye Norman is 'just enormous' in sound, but if its a variegated-diamond of color, shading, and nuance that one's looking for in intelligently-expressed singing, its Duchess Schwarzkopf all the way.


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> How about factual ones?


Still waiting to see one of those... 



> Jessye Norman is 'just enormous' in sound, but if its a variegated-diamond of color, shading, and nuance one's looking for in intelligent-expressed singing, its Duchess Schwarzkopf all the way.


We'll have to agree to disagree.

Jessye Norman channels the beauty and nuances of the poetry of Hesse and Eichendorff like no other.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Balthazar said:


> Still waiting to see one of those...
> 
> We'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Jessye Norman channels the beauty and nuances of the poetry of Hesse and Eichendorff like no other.


Like no other? Beautiful, but, as usual with Norman, somewhat generalised. I wouldn't want to suggest for a moment that Norman is a cool singer, or that she is inexpressive, because she is neither, but, to my ears, her emotional responses are generalised. She never brings anything specific to the composer or the music she is singing, and this is from someone who heard her live quite a few times. Well, almost never. Her singing of the soprano part in the Verdi Requiem under Muti (a rare performance on youtube only) is blazingly committed. It certainly took me by surprise.

No, for someone who really responds to the poetry, who understands every nuance and shading, then it has to be Schwarzkopf. however much I still enjoy others I have detailed above, namely Popp, Janowitz, Fleming, and, yes, Norman.


----------



## millionrainbows

It's the one I "imprinted" on...

~


----------



## Pugg

millionrainbows said:


> It's the one I "imprinted" on...
> 
> ~


Try to find her performance from Amsterdam with Haitink, you be very surprised :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Try to find her performance from Amsterdam with Haitink, you be very surprised :tiphat:


Thanks for the heads-up Pugg. I have now added this to my collection.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Thanks for the heads-up Pugg. I have now added this to my collection.


And.... did you like it?


----------



## Guest

Barbebleu said:


> Thanks for the heads-up Pugg. I have now added this to my collection.


On wich label is it ,I am very interested.:tiphat:


----------



## Pugg

traverso said:


> On wich label is it ,I am very interested.:tiphat:


The Philips Dutch Masters ; Volume 48:tiphat:


----------



## dieter

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . or even quaaludes.
> 
> Kiri almost sounds medicated in parts of her Davis _Four Last Songs_.


Maybe because she doesn't speak German.


----------



## millionrainbows

Pugg said:


> Try to find her performance from Amsterdam with Haitink, you be very surprised :tiphat:


Thanks, Pugg, I'll be sure to get that out-of-print CD just as soon as I can come up with SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLARS. :lol:


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Thanks, Pugg, I'll be sure to get that out-of-print CD just as soon as I can come up with SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLARS. :lol:






I my opinion a must have . With a bit of luck not too expensive.


----------



## Pugg

millionrainbows said:


> Thanks, Pugg, I'll be sure to get that out-of-print CD just as soon as I can come up with SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLARS. :lol:


Just like good wine, gets more expensive when it's get older


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

As a Strauss fan(atic) who would place _The Four Last Songs_ among the 3 or 4 greatest works of the 20th century, I have more than a few recordings of the FLS.



Most of these are recorded by singers I would count among my favorites... and almost every last one brings something to Strauss' masterpiece different and original so that I would not be without them. Having said that... I am in agreement with those who place the Schwarzkopf/Szell recording above all others.


----------



## SixFootScowl

millionrainbows said:


> Thanks, Pugg, I'll be sure to get that out-of-print CD just as soon as I can come up with SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLARS. :lol:


Here is a copy with Haitink and Janowitz on Amazon starting at $5.95 used, but different orchestra.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000E2PQ?ie


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> Here is a copy with Haitink and Janowitz on Amazon starting at $5.95 used, but different orchestra.
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000E2PQ?ie


That's Brahms Florestan, something very different from the Strauss Four last Songs


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Panorama said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Puccini-Schic...8400537&sr=1-5&keywords=strauss+salome+reiner


Side note while scrolling through older posts.

Gianni Schicchi and Salome as a double bill? Quite a contrast!

Main topic
My favorites in the 4LL are Fleming II and Norman.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> That's Brahms Florestan, something very different from the Strauss Four last Songs


Ah!







What happened? I got very mixed up.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> And.... did you like it?


Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet Pugg. I'll let you know my thoughts when I do.


----------



## Barbebleu

millionrainbows said:


> Thanks, Pugg, I'll be sure to get that out-of-print CD just as soon as I can come up with SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLARS. :lol:


They are included as part of this. Available for £17.99 from Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gundula-Ja...-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=Gundula+janowitz


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> They are included as part of this. Available for £17.99 from Amazon.co.uk
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gundula-Ja...-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=Gundula+janowitz


I have been wanting that Janowitz Golden Voice set. $73 new on Ebay.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> They are included as part of this. Available for £17.99 from Amazon.co.uk
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gundula-Ja...-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=Gundula+janowitz


That's wise and also clever, that I have to tell you.


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> I have been wanting that Janowitz Golden Voice set. $73 new on Ebay.


Keep watching for it Florestan. I only downloaded the Four Last Songs from it as they were the only thing I wanted.


----------



## Woodduck

I have the Janowitz/Karajan recording in my collection, and have been surprised that some here seem so fond of it. The consistent purity of her vocalism is indisputable, but for me it's the cold purity of a porcelain statuette. I can think of no voice of comparable reputation which contains so little color or expressive variety. When I hear this Lady of Perpetual Virginity making every piece of music she sings sound pretty much like every other piece of music she sings, and all of them sound little more human than an ondes Martenot, I can only think that people must simply be in love with the sound itself and care little about the words the composers have set so lovingly. Certainly the words go for almost nothing in her _Four Last Songs_.

I first knew Janowitz as the first flower maiden, teasing Parsifal in the magic garden, a part that couldn't have suited her better (especially in contrast with the real woman who's about to come on the scene); then I heard her in the old Karajan Brahms _Requiem_, and after knowing Schwarzkopf in the Klemperer recording I thought Janowitz sounded like a disembodied spirit or a space alien - beautiful, but weirdly so. Actually I rather liked the effect she made, but I have no hesitation in calling it an effect. I would never use that word to describe Schwarzkopf. Schwarzkopf's Brahms comforts me; Janowitz's fascinates initially, but finally bores me.

Is mine a minority opinion? Whatever. I just thought I'd throw it out there. I think Strauss was right in feeling that a richer, darker voice could bring something to his songs that a pure lyric voice like Janowitz's - but is there another voice as cut-glass pure as hers? - could not.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> I have the Janowitz/Karajan recording in my collection, and have been surprised that some here seem so fond of it.* The consistent purity of her vocalism is indisputable, but for me it's the cold purity of a porcelain statuette.* I can think of no voice of comparable reputation which contains so little color or expressive variety. When I hear this Lady of Perpetual Virginity making every piece of music she sings sound pretty much like every other piece of music she sings, and all of them sound little more human than an ondes Martenot, *I can only think that people must simply be in love with the sound itself and care little about the words the composers have set so lovingly. Certainly the words go for almost nothing in her Four Last Songs.
> *
> I first knew Janowitz as the first flower maiden, teasing Parsifal in the magic garden, a part that couldn't have suited her better (especially in contrast with the real woman who's about to come on the scene); then I heard her in the old Karajan Brahms _Requiem_, and after knowing Schwarzkopf in the Klemperer recording *I thought Janowitz sounded like a disembodied spirit or a space alien - beautiful, but weirdly so.* Actually I rather liked the effect she made, but I have no hesitation in calling it an effect. I would never use that word to describe Schwarzkopf. Schwarzkopf's Brahms comforts me; Janowitz's fascinates initially, but finally bores me.
> 
> Is mine a minority opinion? Whatever. I just thought I'd throw it out there. I think Strauss was right in feeling that a richer, darker voice could bring something to his songs that a pure lyric voice like Janowitz's - but is there another voice as cut-glass pure as hers? - could not.


I 'love' this post by the way.

Janowitz is radiant- but never restless. Cool- but rarely nuanced.

She may be a rarefied "space alien- beautiful, but weirdly so"- as you put it- but she really does need a Planet Glamtron 5000 upgrade.

She needs an upgraded sound card that gives off 'aurora borealis' and 'sheet lightning' in that glorious voice of hers.


----------



## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> I 'love' this post by the way.
> 
> Janowitz is radiant- but never restless. Cool- but rarely nuanced.
> 
> She may be a rarefied "space alien- beautiful, but weirdly so"- as you put it- but she really does need a Planet Glamtron 5000 upgrade.
> 
> She needs an upgraded sound card that gives off 'aurora borealis' and 'sheet lightning' in that glorious voice of hers.


Whoo-wee! And I thought I was pressing my literary luck with my "Lady of Perpetual Virginity"!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Woodduck said:



Whoo-wee! And I thought I was pressing my literary luck with my "Lady of Perpetual Virginity"!

Click to expand...

*Weren't the apostles John, Paul, Peter, and Elvis?- I can't remember.

You're the literary guy though. I'm just the blonde in the sound booth.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> And.... did you like it?


Yes I did. Wonderful voice and meticulous attention to the detail in the score by both her and Haitink. She floats the long last phrase from four bars after G to the end in Beim Schlafengen perfectly and as a little example for the orchestra, two bars before G in Im Abendrot there is a sforzando marked that not everyone gets right but Haitink does perfectly. It's live and Gundula sounds more focused on the interpretation than she does for Karajan.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Woodduck said:


> I have the Janowitz/Karajan recording in my collection, and have been surprised that some here seem so fond of it. The consistent purity of her vocalism is indisputable, but for me it's the cold purity of a porcelain statuette. I can think of no voice of comparable reputation which contains so little color or expressive variety. When I hear this Lady of Perpetual Virginity making every piece of music she sings sound pretty much like every other piece of music she sings, and all of them sound little more human than an ondes Martenot, I can only think that people must simply be in love with the sound itself and care little about the words the composers have set so lovingly. Certainly the words go for almost nothing in her _Four Last Songs_.
> 
> I first knew Janowitz as the first flower maiden, teasing Parsifal in the magic garden, a part that couldn't have suited her better (especially in contrast with the real woman who's about to come on the scene); then I heard her in the old Karajan Brahms _Requiem_, and after knowing Schwarzkopf in the Klemperer recording I thought Janowitz sounded like a disembodied spirit or a space alien - beautiful, but weirdly so. Actually I rather liked the effect she made, but I have no hesitation in calling it an effect. I would never use that word to describe Schwarzkopf. Schwarzkopf's Brahms comforts me; Janowitz's fascinates initially, but finally bores me.
> 
> Is mine a minority opinion? Whatever. I just thought I'd throw it out there. I think Strauss was right in feeling that a richer, darker voice could bring something to his songs that a pure lyric voice like Janowitz's - but is there another voice as cut-glass pure as hers? - could not.


You articulate very clearly what I have often thought myself.

I do like her *Vier letzte Lieder* with Karajan, if I'm not listening too carefully; if I just want to let the beauty of the music and the voice waft over me without thinking too clearly about the songs' meaning, but, on a deeper level, I find it wanting.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Yes I did. Wonderful voice and meticulous attention to the detail in the score by both her and Haitink. She floats the long last phrase from four bars after G to the end in Beim Schlafengen perfectly and as a little example for the orchestra, two bars before G in Im Abendrot there is a sforzando marked that not everyone gets right but Haitink does perfectly. It's live and Gundula sounds more focused on the interpretation than she does for Karajan.


That's why I liked this one more then the studio recording :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Pugg said:


> That's wise and also clever, that I have to tell you.


One of my first lp's was the Telemann Ino cantate wich is included in this set.I always loved the timbre of her voice and I cannot find myself in the critisism mentioned earlier.It is not more than a subjective statement and there is nothing wrong with that.:tiphat:
I still have this lp.
.


----------



## millionrainbows

Pugg said:


> That's Brahms Florestan, something very different from the Strauss Four last Songs


Yes, very different. Brahms with Florestan reduces cavities, and 4 out of 5 dentists recommend it. :lol:


----------



## millionrainbows

Woodduck said:


> ...after knowing Schwarzkopf in the Klemperer recording I thought Janowitz sounded like a disembodied spirit or a space alien - beautiful, but weirdly so.


Disembodied spirits and space aliens? I gotta get that Janowitz recording!! :lol:


----------



## millionrainbows

Marschallin Blair said:


> Weren't the apostles John, Paul, Peter, and Elvis?- I can't remember.
> 
> You're the literary guy though. I'm just the blonde in the sound booth.


That's like the Three Tenors: Pavarrotti, Placido Domingo, and that other guy. :lol:


----------



## millionrainbows

The last of the songs is very touching to me. The image of Strauss and his wife, looking at the sunset, and likened to two birds. 

That really gets me every time! (sob sob...)


----------



## Pugg

millionrainbows said:


> Disembodied spirits and space aliens? I gotta get that Janowitz recording!! :lol:


And your prescription from the pharmacist


----------



## Woodduck

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, very different. Brahms with Florestan reduces cavities, and 4 out of 5 dentists recommend it. :lol:


Some of us oldsters knew about Crest with Fluoristan before we knew about Fidelio with Florestan. The image of a heroic woman who risks her life to save her husband's tooth enamel gives the opera a deeper resonance for us.


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> I have the Janowitz/Karajan recording in my collection, and have been surprised that some here seem so fond of it. The consistent purity of her vocalism is indisputable, but for me it's the cold purity of a porcelain statuette. I can think of no voice of comparable reputation which contains so little color or expressive variety. *When I hear this Lady of Perpetual Virginit*y making every piece of music she sings sound pretty much like every other piece of music she sings, and all of them sound little more human than an ondes Martenot, I can only think that people must simply be in love with the sound itself and care little about the words the composers have set so lovingly. Certainly the words go for almost nothing in her _Four Last Songs_.
> 
> I first knew Janowitz as the first flower maiden, teasing Parsifal in the magic garden, a part that couldn't have suited her better (especially in contrast with the real woman who's about to come on the scene); then I heard her in the old Karajan Brahms _Requiem_, and after knowing Schwarzkopf in the Klemperer recording I thought Janowitz sounded like a disembodied spirit or a space alien - beautiful, but weirdly so. Actually I rather liked the effect she made, but I have no hesitation in calling it an effect. I would never use that word to describe Schwarzkopf. Schwarzkopf's Brahms comforts me; Janowitz's fascinates initially, but finally bores me.
> 
> Is mine a minority opinion? Whatever. I just thought I'd throw it out there. I think Strauss was right in feeling that a richer, darker voice could bring something to his songs that a pure lyric voice like Janowitz's - but is there another voice as cut-glass pure as hers? - could not.


Oh dear! :lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Found this little gem on YouTube. Who knew?


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Found this little gem on YouTube. Who knew?


Yes I do, a friend of my made a copy for me on disk


----------



## Barbebleu

Just listened to Lucia Popp and Klaus Tennstedt doing the Vier Letzte Lieder. It reminded me of how much I love Lucia's voice and also Tennstedt's conducting. Delightful stuff.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Just listened to Lucia Popp and Klaus Tennstedt doing the Vier Letzte Lieder. It reminded me of how much I love Lucia's voice and also Tennstedt's conducting. Delightful stuff.


Amen to this.:tiphat:


----------



## AlanB

Hi all you classical fans
Recommended this site today and Bingo! My favourite piece of all time that is played almost daily.
Been listening to this for about 40+ years and heard so many, many recordings.
My favourite has to be Lucia Popp. Those bell like top notes kill me.
Second is Elizabeth Schwartzkopf with Szell. Third Gundula Janowitz. Fourth Felicity Lott.
All four songs are fantastic but the standout, for me, is Beim Schlafengehen. Often has me in floods.


----------



## Pugg

AlanB said:


> Hi all you classical fans
> Recommended this site today and Bingo! My favourite piece of all time that is played almost daily.
> Been listening to this for about 40+ years and heard so many, many recordings.
> My favourite has to be Lucia Popp. Those bell like top notes kill me.
> Second is Elizabeth Schwartzkopf with Szell. Third Gundula Janowitz. Fourth Felicity Lott.
> All four songs are fantastic but the standout, for me, is Beim Schlafengehen. Often has me in floods.


Man of good taste.


----------



## Barbebleu

Just got the Anna Netrebko version of Vier Letzte Lieder. Oh dear. Shan't be returning to this very often. Very wavery and inaccurate singing. Fortunately the filler of Heldenleben is pretty good. Not a Vier Letzte Lieder for the ages.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Just got the Anna Netrebko version of Vier Letzte Lieder. Oh dear. Shan't be returning to this very often. Very wavery and inaccurate singing. Fortunately the filler of Heldenleben is pretty good. Not a Vier Letzte Lieder for the ages.


The good thing is nobody is talking about it, they like it for the cover, like so many of her records.


----------



## helenora

Pugg said:


> The good thing is nobody is talking about it, they like it for the cover, like so many of her records.


yes, so true.
it´s not for her to sing this sort of music I suppose


----------



## hpowders

Janowitz/Karajan. End of story. Definitive labor/labour of love.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> The good thing is nobody is talking about it, they like it for the cover, like so many of her records.


I didn't even look at the cover when I downloaded it so I don't even have that as an excuse. I just thought - how bad could it be? Little did I suspect!


----------



## Barbebleu

hpowders said:


> Janowitz/Karajan. End of story. Definitive labor/labour of love.


I hear you and agree that it is a wonderful version but I wouldn't be without some of my others. Lucia Popp, Frau Schwarzkopf and Felicity Lott to name only a few!


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> I didn't even look at the cover when I downloaded it so I don't even have that as an excuse. I just thought - how bad could it be? Little did I suspect!


Rude awakening so to speak.


----------



## Becca

Here is an interesting version of the _Four Last Songs_ - Elisabeth Schwarzkopf with Sir John Barbirolli and the London Symphony Orchestra recorded live in the Royal Festival Hall. Whoever directed the recording, they did a slightly odd job with the microphone setup as it makes Schwarzkopf sound a bit harsh and almost in a separate acoustic, but otherwise is definitely worthwhile hearing.


----------



## Johnmusic

A personal favorite

Kirsten Flagstad; "Vier letzte Lieder"; Richard Strauss 
Wilhelm Furtwängler--Conductor Philharmonia Orchestra 1950


----------



## DavidA

Interesting that in the documentary about Kaufmann he was going to sing them


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> I hear you and agree that it is a wonderful version but I wouldn't be without some of my others. Lucia Popp, Frau Schwarzkopf and Felicity Lott to name only a few!


I knew I forgot to tell / ask you something: did you ever heard the Amsterdam version by Janowitz/ Haitink?
If not your missing out big time.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> I knew I forgot to tell / ask you something: did you ever heard the Amsterdam version by Janowitz/ Haitink?
> If not your missing out big time.


Yes I got that Pugg. It is rather good but I love Janowitz's voice anyway.


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Interesting that in the documentary about Kaufmann he was going to sing them


Yes, he seems unafraid to tackle repertoire with which male singers are generally unassociated. I rather enjoyed his Wesendonck Lieder.


----------



## wkasimer

Pugg said:


> did you ever heard the Amsterdam version by Janowitz/ Haitink?
> If not your missing out big time.


I like it better than Janowitz/Karajan - in particular, the sonics are much better - but I wish that they hadn't rushed through Im Abendrot. I'm not suggesting that they needed to wallow a la Norman/Masur, but at that pace it loses the elegaic feel.


----------



## philoctetes

Popp finishes first, with Liz and Gunny also-rans...


----------



## Barbebleu

philoctetes said:


> Popp finishes first, with Liz and Gunny also-rans...


Not too shabby for also-rans!!:lol:


----------



## Josquin13

I'm a big fan of Gundula Janowitz, but not of Karajan. Besides, I think the younger Karajan did this music better with Schwarzkopf (albeit in lesser mono sound). I wish Janowitz had recorded these works with Rudolf Kempe and the Staatskapelle Dresden instead. Haitink is another excellent Strauss conductor, but why did they take Im Abendrot so fast? It doesn't work for me (I agree with Bill).

The same is true for Lisa Della Casa's wonderfully sung Four Last Songs--another great singer working with an arguably second rate conductor, Karl Böhm, who rushes her in the final song (& elsewhere), bringing it in at a speedy 6:00 minutes. Sorry, that's just bad conducting. At least, to my ears, they're not on the same page, as apparently Della Casa's instincts were to slow down and Böhm didn't want to. 

In contrast, a live recording with Elly Ameling from the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam pairs a great singer with a 1st class, seasoned Strauss conductor, Wolfgang Sawallisch. (Sawallisch performed every note that Strauss ever composed over the course of his long career, or at least set out to do so & got very close...). However, unfortunately, the concert was late in Ameling's career, and her voice isn't quite as fresh and youthful sounding as it was in her prime. Nevertheless, the artistry is still there, and I find the subtlety of her interpretation fascinating.

I also like Elisabeth Söderström's two recordings (with Dorati & Armstrong--especially in the 3rd song), Arleen Auger and the Vienna Philharmonic (Previn's timings are near ideal, especially in the 4th song--best ever), Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in the 3rd song (with Ackermann and Szell), and for sheer opulence, Jessye Norman and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, conducted by Kurt Masur, who brilliantly take the final song more slowly than anyone else I've heard.


----------



## philoctetes

Does anybody else think that Daphne's final scene is in the same league as 4LS musically? No Hesse for poetry, but otherwise the rapture is quite intense.

I'm just breaking into Lott's recordings recently. Guess I need to hear her 4LS as well.


----------



## Pugg

philoctetes said:


> Does anybody else think that Daphne's final scene is in the same league as 4LS musically? No Hesse for poetry, but otherwise the rapture is quite intense.
> 
> I'm just breaking into Lott's recordings recently. Guess I need to hear her 4LS as well.


You should try the_ Popp and Fleming_ recoding from Daphe first.


----------



## philoctetes

Already have complete Daphnes with Popp and Gueden. Popp is the winner again. Fleming is a red flag for me, ever since her first 4LS, have not heard the second. But I like her career repertory such as Rusalka.


----------



## Barbebleu

Josquin13 said:


> I'm a big fan of Gundula Janowitz, but not of Karajan. Besides, I think the younger Karajan did this music better with Schwarzkopf (albeit in lesser mono sound). I wish Janowitz had recorded these works with Rudolf Kempe and the Staatskapelle Dresden instead. Haitink is another excellent Strauss conductor, but why did they take Im Abendrot so fast? It doesn't work for me (I agree with Bill).
> 
> The same is true for Lisa Della Casa's wonderfully sung Four Last Songs--another great singer working with an arguably second rate conductor, Karl Böhm, who rushes her in the final song (& elsewhere), bringing it in at a speedy 6:00 minutes. Sorry, that's just bad conducting. At least, to my ears, they're not on the same page, as apparently Della Casa's instincts were to slow down and Böhm didn't want to.
> 
> In contrast, a live recording with Elly Ameling from the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam pairs a great singer with a 1st class, seasoned Strauss conductor, Wolfgang Sawallisch. (Sawallisch performed every note that Strauss ever composed over the course of his long career, or at least set out to do so & got very close...). However, unfortunately, the concert was late in Ameling's career, and her voice isn't quite as fresh and youthful sounding as it was in her prime. Nevertheless, the artistry is still there, and I find the subtlety of her interpretation fascinating.
> 
> I also like Elisabeth Söderström's two recordings (with Dorati & Armstrong--especially in the 3rd song), Arleen Auger and the Vienna Philharmonic (Previn's timings are near ideal, especially in the 4th song--best ever), Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in the 3rd song (with Ackermann and Szell), and for sheer opulence, Jessye Norman and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, conducted by Kurt Masur, who brilliantly take the final song more slowly than anyone else I've heard.


I added the Auger/Previn to my collection of VLL today. I'm looking forward to hearing it, there have been many good reports.


----------



## Pugg

philoctetes said:


> Already have complete Daphnes with Popp and Gueden. Popp is the winner again. Fleming is a red flag for me, ever since her first 4LS, have not heard the second. But I like her career repertory such as Rusalka.


Her second is so much better then the first, try it again you will see/ hear what I mean.


----------



## Barbebleu

Am I correct in thinking that Renee Fleming has only two recordings of VLL, one with Eschenbach and one with Thielemann?


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Am I correct in thinking that Renee Fleming has only two recordings of VLL, one with Eschenbach and one with Thielemann?


Commercial recording, yes, however on You Tube are others one from Lutzern and one from the Proms from the back of my head.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Commercial recording, yes, however on You Tube are others one from Lutzern and one from the Proms from the back of my head.


Thanks Pugg. I was thinking purely about commercial recordings. Need to add the Eschenbach then.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Commercial recording, yes, however on You Tube are others one from Lutzern and one from the Proms from the back of my head.


Pugg, have you heard both commercial Flemings and, if so, what are the differences, if any?


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Pugg, have you heard both commercial Flemings and, if so, what are the differences, if any?


Is the pope Catholic / Raby Jewish etc...
For starters more then 20 years in recording date, so the first on dates from 1996, good but she surpasses herself in the later ond with interpretation, as if she understands the text better and I must admit Thieleman's conducting helps without any doubt.
So for me, I have them both but if you want only one, the 2008 recording is a must have.
( on the other hand you can buy the first one in the U.K for a bargain price.

http://www.bookbutler.com/music/compare?ean=0828765940825


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Barbebleu said:


> Pugg, have you heard both commercial Flemings and, if so, what are the differences, if any?


Personally, I prefer Fleming's second take on the songs. Her voice has taken on a new richness in the lower regions, but she hasn't lost the ability to soar and swell the tone at the top. She's also far more inside the songs than she was in the earlier version. I like Thielemann's conducting too.

I wouldn't prefer it to Schwarzkopf/Szell or Popp/Tennstedt, but it's still among my favourite versions. I just wish she wouldn't occasionally mar the line with jazzy swoops and slides, a mannerism that became more pronounced in her later recordings.


----------



## Barbebleu

What I'm basically asking then is this. Am I wasting my money on the Fleming/Eschenbach or is it still worth buying?


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> What I'm basically asking then is this. Am I wasting my money on the Fleming/Eschenbach or is it still worth buying?


It depends on how fanatical a VLL collector you are. I agree with Pugg that the later recording is better in every respect, but neither recording would be in my top 5 or so. But if you already have the later one, plus Popp, Jurinac, Della Casa, and Isokoski, and you're a Fleming Flapper, then go for it.

FWIW, I'm a fairly fanatical VLL collector, and I haven't kept the first Fleming recording.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> It depends on how fanatical a VLL collector you are. I agree with Pugg that the later recording is better in every respect, but neither recording would be in my top 5 or so. But if you already have the later one, plus Popp, Jurinac, Della Casa, and Isokoski, and you're a Fleming Flapper, then go for it.
> 
> FWIW, I'm a fairly fanatical VLL collector, and I haven't kept the first Fleming recording.


That probably answers my question then.


----------



## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> What I'm basically asking then is this. Am I wasting my money on the Fleming/Eschenbach or is it still worth buying?


For only _4.00 UK_ pounds, just have to hear it yourself.


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## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> It depends on how fanatical a VLL collector you are. I agree with Pugg that the later recording is better in every respect, but neither recording would be in my top 5 or so. But if you already have the later one, plus Popp, Jurinac, Della Casa, and Isokoski, and you're a Fleming Flapper, then go for it.
> 
> FWIW, I'm a fairly fanatical VLL collector, and I haven't kept the first Fleming recording.


Thanks for the pointer to the Isokoski. I was not familiar with this wonderful Finnsh soprano. Now I am!


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## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> For only _4.00 UK_ pounds, just have to hear it yourself.


Yeah, I might just go mad and get it.:lol:


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## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Yeah, I might just go mad and get it.:lol:


That is the spirit, we only live once.


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## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> That is the spirit, we only live once.


So they say, I have my doubts.


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## Star

No question that my favourite version is Janowitz / Karajan


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## Tsaraslondon

Gosh, this thread keeps running and running. 

I find my views have changed little since my assessment of December 1st 2015 (post #138) in which I compared Norman/Masur, Fleming/Thielemann, Janowitz/Karajan, Popp/Tennstedt and Schwarzkopf/Szell except that I've tired a little of Janowitz's marmoreal purity and somewhat inexpressive beauty. The other four all have more to say about the songs, which, after all, are Lieder, not mere vocalises.

I also listened to a few more versions a couple of weeks ago. I didn't like Stemme at all, finding the voice too hard and unwieldy, with too much vibrato for my taste. For some reason Studer's voice has never been to my taste either, so, somewhat belatedly, I gave it a spin, and I didn't really enjoy it. We all hear voices differently, but, to my ears, she often sounds just under the note. Where Stemme has too much vibrato for my taste, Studer has too little. Harteros/Jansons I enjoyed more for the conducting than the singing, which is occasionally too effortful. Isokoski is lovely, but I still wouldn't place her above Schwarzkopf, Popp, Fleming or Norman.

Ultimately, though, it's still Schwarzkopf/Szell for me. Whichever version I listen to, I always find myself reaching for it afterwards just to see if it's as good as I remember it. I'm never disappointed.


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## Biffo

We discussed this topic to death (for me, at least) in the Amazon UK forum. After years of being an adherent of Schwarzkopf/Szell I finally settled on Janowitz/Karajan. Unless, of course, I happened to be listening to Norman/Masur at the time. Popp/Tennstedt is very fine but I don't gel to Fleming.


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## ShaunRoche

Hoho, how did I miss this thread? Happiest of happy days!

We've now got two threads on the go!

Four Last Songs recommendations?


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## ALT

On film, *Cheryl Studer* sings a radiant *Im Abendrot*, from Strauss’ _Vier letzte Lieder_. Like a Stradivarius indeed.


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