# Haydn vs Mozart again: Quartets



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's hard to avoid being crushed by the Haydn juggernaut. So many quartets, and so fine! But Mozart wrote a few good ones too in his short life.

So let's level the playing field: Haydn's best versus Mozart's best. What do you say? And which are your favorites?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Haydn by a league, Capt'n Nemo. May as well go with the patron saint of the SQ.

On the other hand, if we factor in Mozart's "Dissonant" K.465, I could call it draw.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Listened to the k.465 tonight. Yeah, I'd say that Wolfgang knew what he was doing. 

But I need an arrangement for organ to play it down there in Davy Jones' locker...


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Well, I agree that taking the whole thing into account Haydn wins hands down...

Including the quintets, and counting only the best, I would be tempted to say that Mozart wins.

Not including the quintets I am not sufficiently familiar with Mozart's quartets to properly comment. However, Haydn's b minor op. 33 quartet is one of my favourite pieces of chamber music so I would say that the odds are on Haydn's side.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I hear them as significantly different, in ideas and presentation. Too different to directly compare. I _enjoy_ every single one of Haydn's quartets after Op. 17, and several earlier ones. With Mozart it's mostly the 'Haydns'.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Question!

Why is always Mozart-Haydn as a comparison? This is about the third thread with them in opposition. :tiphat:

I don't know enough about Haydn to venture an answer, but as the father of the quartet, he gets a huge bouquet. At his best, however, Mozart was a different league, apparently...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

It's funny; I have many of Mozart's quartets, but I have every one of Haydn's quartets. So thinking about it, apparently I'm not enamored enough with Mozart's quartet output to make an intelligent comparison.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

There's no need for such a comparison, let's enjoy the music as it is. 

Mozart's early quartets, up to and including Nos. 1-13, are excellent and well crafted and should be enjoyed for what they are; as the efforts of a young and developing composer. They are fine quartets and I'm quite fond of them. On the other hand, the _Haydn quartets_, _Hoffmeister_ and _Prussian quartets_ represent something far greater and significant. They represent the Pinnacle (to pilfer the words of a certain someone) of string quartet writing, and the composer's ideal of what a string quartet means to him. They're full of grace, wit, elegance and above all mastery of form.

Of course, all of the above can be applied to any composer, Haydn, Schubert, Beethoven and many more, should one feel that the composer is worthy of such accolades. I love Haydn't quartets because they are different than Mozart's, Schubert's and Beethoven's quartets. I don't ever feel the need to compare because, once I listen to piece of work and if I truly like it, then I'll enjoy it for it is, irregardless of the composer.

Hmm. Perhaps I rambled on for far too long.

On an unrelated noted: Schubert's G major quartet has been my favorite quartet for past month and a half.:lol:

Edit:

My absolute favorite Haydn quartet is from the Op.76, No. 6 in E flat Major. It's irresistibly charming and I can't seem to get enough of it.

I don't really have a Favorite Mozart quartet because, I seem to like all of'em the same, but to comply with the Op of the thread, I'd say No. 18 in A major. :{


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Question!
> 
> Why is always Mozart-Haydn as a comparison? This is about the third thread with them in opposition. :tiphat:
> 
> I don't know enough about Haydn to venture an answer, but as the father of the quartet, he gets a huge bouquet. At his best, however, Mozart was a different league, apparently...


I think the two are compared because they are relatively close in style. Both are from the classical period. They were contemporaries of one another. They wrote many works in the same style that can be compared (masses, string quartets, symphonies, other chamber works). So it is more realistic to compare the two than, say, Haydn with Bach, or with Wagner. People like to compare.

As for me, my appreciation for Haydn is growing at a faster pace than for most other composers. Comparing their high points, I would say that Mozart has Haydn beat. But I think that Haydn was a much more consistent composer. Mozart has several works that I greatly enjoy, and multiple ones that I could take or leave. Haydn, though, has many more that I enjoy, if not completely love.

As for the quartets, I know there are exceptions, but I get much more enjoyment out of Haydn's works in this genre than from Mozart. But then Mozart shines in others - the string quintets, already mentioned, being a huge case in point. And his Divertimento in E flat major, K. 563, is incredible.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Just this past weekend I heard a performance of perhaps my favorite Haydn quartet, Op. 76 No. 3 "Sunrise". I adore the later Haydn quartets - I guess anything from Op. 33 on. I also love Mozart's later ones. I probably play Haydn more than Mozart, but I'm not sure I would say I like his quartets better.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ramako and DrMike about Mozart's quintets. If those were included, Mozart gets the strong nod.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with Ramako and DrMike about Mozart's quintets. If those were included, Mozart gets the strong nod.


I like the quintets, though not so much the early one. However, I think they are handicapped by Mozart's unwillingness to abandon his stricture regarding decorum. They aren't sunny, but the angst is mostly 'viewed' through a translucent curtain.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I think in all string quartet repertoire, the musical comparition of Mozart vs Haydn is the only realistic one! LOL... Mozart composed, deliberately in a style influence of Haydn in his "Haydn" quartets. So the comparition available based on closest chronological :

Haydn's op 33 (1781) vs Mozart's Haydn Quartet K. 387 (1782), K. 421 (1783), K. 428 (1783), "Hunt" K. 458 (1784), K. 464 (1785), "Dissonance"K. 465 (1785)

then the Prussians battle
Haydn's op.50 1787 vs Mozart's nos. 21–23 (K. 575, 589, 590) 1789-1790.

Haydn then composed Op. 54,55,64 the Tost I,II, III in 1788 and 1790 before Mozart's dead in 1791.


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## DebussyDoesDallas (Jan 11, 2014)

It's kind of a quality vs quantity for me.

Mozart's Haydn quartets are truly magical, and there's no other set of six quartets by Haydn under one opus number (20, 30, 50, 54/55, 71/74, 76) that I like as much front to back. But if I could cobble together my favorite six Haydn quartets under a single fantasy opus, it would go toe to toe. 

Given the dessert island scenario, I would take a set of complete Haydn quartets over a complete set of Mozart just for the sheer scope of style, notion, and emotion. 

Both lose to Beethoven of course.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

Ive tried many times listening to quartets of haydn but its not my thing I guess, so I guess Mozart wins for me. I especially like the dissonant quartet which is really romantic to me.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Hmm, Haydn or Mozart? Beethoven.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

They both have their good points. Mozarts are more polished and structured. Haydn's have more energy (especially the earlier, looser ones), and he was good at working with very terse thematic material.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mozart string quartets are more sophisticated than Haydn's; the latter's more easy to listen too.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

I guess it depends on what you look for in music. Mozart's are more contrapuntal and chromatic, Haydn's more motivically and rhythmically unified. Beethoven seems to have been very influenced by Mozart's Haydn quartets, quoting parts of Mozart's Dissonance quartet almost verbatim in the C major Razumovsky quartet, and it's the same with the A major quartets.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

TheProudSquire said:


> There's no need for such a comparison, let's enjoy the music as it is.
> 
> Mozart's early quartets, up to and including Nos. 1-13, are excellent and well crafted and should be enjoyed for what they are; as the efforts of a young and developing composer. They are fine quartets and I'm quite fond of them. On the other hand, the _Haydn quartets_, _Hoffmeister_ and _Prussian quartets_ represent something far greater and significant. They represent the Pinnacle (to pilfer the words of a certain someone) of string quartet writing, and the composer's ideal of what a string quartet means to him. They're full of grace, wit, elegance and above all mastery of form.
> 
> ...


Hello TheProudSquire, which interpreter do you like best for Op. 76 No. 6?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If I want entertainment, I'll listen to Haydn quartets. If I'm in a masochistic mood and wish to bring on a migraine, I'll listen to Mozart Quartets. "Too many notes, my dear Mozart".

Yet I absolutely adore Mozart's string quintets-terrific masterpieces!


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> Both lose to Beethoven of course.


Why do fans of Beethoven go everywhere they don't belong? As great as he was, this is a comparison of the two *greatest *composers who ever lived, and he isn't here for a reason.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mozart's quartets are more intellectual, "heavier" than Haydn's. I prefer the lighter, wittier Haydn quartets.

However, the greatest chamber writing by Mozart is to be found in his string quintets and those I love.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Roi N said:


> Why do fans of Beethoven go everywhere they don't belong? As great as he was, this is a comparison of the two *greatest *composers who ever lived, and he isn't here for a reason.


Totally agree that we shouldn't mention Beethoven in the same breath as these two greats!


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Hello TheProudSquire, which interpreter do you like best for Op. 76 No. 6?


Sorry for the delayed response, HBC, but my favorite interpretation of the Op. 76 is by the Quatuor Mosaiques group. :}


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

I think Mozart's 2nd Prussian Quartet K. 589 is superior to any quartet Haydn ever wrote but in general I'm a bigger fan of Haydn's quartets. Just so much that's so good!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Mozart's quartets are more intellectual, "heavier" than Haydn's. I prefer the lighter, wittier Haydn quartets.


I guess you aren't familiar with Mozart's last three. He was really finding a new voice there I thought, it's a shame he died so young I think he could have really been relaxed with his future quartet writing, and if he found more commissions for such works I think he could have excelled as much as anyone in that period. As it is he did well throughout all genres anyway.

La Chasse for me is the best of his earlier quartets and is a great relaxed work.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I think both Mozart & Haydn's qualities in the quartet field are as one, and I think of the phrase, 'less is more' applies here.
It would be difficult not to live with the inventiveness and sheer joy of Haydn's quartets and they are exceptional in that how ever many times you listen they offer something new. Though Mozart wrote fewer works in this medium the works he did I believe reach a slightly higher plain; I'm think of the last four here, and the six dedicated to Haydn himself; these works have a transcendental quality which given the right moment seem heaven sent.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would advise anyone disappointed with Mozart's string quartets listen to the C major and g minor string quintets.
Here you will find Mozart at his chamber music writing best.
Among his greatest works.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

They are good, but bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

They are both bigger and better.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Roi N said:


> Why do fans of Beethoven go everywhere they don't belong? As great as he was, this is a comparison of the two *greatest *composers who ever lived, and he isn't here for a reason.


Because he's greater. :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

starry said:


> I guess you aren't familiar with Mozart's last three. He was really finding a new voice there I thought, it's a shame he died so young I think he could have really been relaxed with his future quartet writing, and if he found more commissions for such works I think he could have excelled as much as anyone in that period. As it is he did well throughout all genres anyway.
> 
> La Chasse for me is the best of his earlier quartets and is a great relaxed work.


Yes I am. I have 2 different performances of the Prussian quartets. They are my favorite Mozart string quartets.


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

They both fed of each other in this genre but i don't think Mozart was as pushed to impress with his Prussian quartets where as Haydn continues to get better.
That said - Mozart's 'Spring' and 'Hoffmeister' are amongst my favourite quartets (alongside Dvorak's 'American', Smetena's 'From My Life', Shosta's C minor and Schubert's 'Death and the Maiden' - i'd also take the allegro from LVB's 14th but gladly leave the rest of it).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Mozart did not write the Prussian quartets to impress. One of the reasons I find them easier to listen to than any of the quartets he dedicated to Haydn.


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

The Haydn and Mozart comparison is a fine one indeed - the two greatest composers, both of the same musical era. But Haydn takes this SQ competition so easily! It's just as absurd to compare Mozart to Haydn in the SQ medium as it is to compare Haydn to Mozart in the Piano Concerto medium.


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> Because he's greater. :tiphat:


Not only is he not, he isn't even on the same level. It's more than ubsurd to compare Beethoven to Haydn and Mozart.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I wouldn't be so brash as to include anyone - least of all Luigi - in the company of Moz, but isn't it unfair that daily he must battle his old _mucker-in-strings_, Papa Jo, on every thread? I'm sure that while we quibble, these two forceful beasts of beautiful stuff sit side by side, comparing wig-makers and fortepianos, discussing music in detail we can only salivate to eavesdrop on, and wondering what the _hey _the blue-eyed fuss is about.

"Why not have both of us, old chappy? Luigi too, if you must. All three, together, we cost less than a single Kylie, and we look so much better in wigs and hot pants..."

:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Roi N said:


> Not only is he not, he isn't even on the same level. It's more than ubsurd to compare Beethoven to Haydn and Mozart.


I don't get it. Why is it absurd to compare the quality of Beethoven's music to that of Mozart?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Roi N said:


> Not only is he not, he isn't even on the same level. It's more than ubsurd to compare Beethoven to Haydn and Mozart.


Yea, he's not on the same level... he's on a greater level.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Roi N said:


> Not only is he not, he isn't even on the same level. It's more than ubsurd to compare Beethoven to Haydn and Mozart.


Of course, with all composers central to the repertoire who's "better"(a vague and meaningless term) is only a matter of preference. Some prefer to be moved through the subtle emotion and wit in Haydn and Mozart and others...like to be mercilessly beaten over the head with sound until they're moved as with Beethoven.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Step right up! Get some personal drivel! Step right up!


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Vesuvius said:


> Step right up! Get some personal drivel! Step right up!


well, if that doesn't set irony meters asploding. hehe

ya might want to look over some of your previous contributions to the discussion, tho...


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

> well, if that doesn't set irony meters asploding





> Word of the day
> 
> 'asploding'
> 
> ...


My head hurts. Young people today!


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I don't get it. Why is it absurd to compare the quality of Beethoven's music to that of Mozart?


Just read some Hanslick and understand the true meaning of music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Roi N said:


> *Just read some Hanslick *and understand the true meaning of music.


Ahhhh! Hanslick. The ultimate, definitive musical authority! I can go home now!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

trazom said:


> well, if that doesn't set irony meters asploding. hehe
> 
> ya might want to look over some of your previous contributions to the discussion, tho...


Well, if you couldn't tell by the offhanded, useless nature of them... I'm quite aware.


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Ahhhh! Hanslick. The ultimate, definitive musical authority! I can go home now!


Hanslick understood that music is a different universe, one that should not be built around feelings. Beethoven built most of his later music around feelings (Eroica is a great example). Mozart and Haydn didn't. End of discussion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Roi N said:


> Hanslick understood that music is a different universe, one that should not be built around feelings. Beethoven built most of his later music around feelings (Eroica is a great example). Mozart and Haydn didn't. End of discussion.


Come back after you've heard the Mozart string quintet in g minor and Haydn's Creation.
Experience "The Feelings"!!


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Come back after you've heard the Mozart string quintet in g minor and Haydn's Creation.
> Experience "The Feelings"!!


Again, Hanslick said that feelings are the puny listener's way of understanding music. The work itself isn't built upon them. Beethoven's work is. Come on, it's not that hard to understand....


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Roi N said:


> Again, Hanslick said that feelings are the puny listener's way of understanding music. The work itself isn't built upon them. Beethoven's work is. Come on, it's not that hard to understand....


Well then, label me Puny and Proud of it!!!

Hanslick was sadly "misguided".


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Surely Beethoven's music is more than simply emoting feelings, that's just the Romantic view of him.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Eliciting feelings is quite enough for me. I'm an instinctive listener. I know what I like and I know what I don't like.
I like keeping things simple.


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

starry said:


> Surely Beethoven's music is more than simply emoting feelings, that's just the Romantic view of him.


Yes, some of his music was of a Classical-era nature (like haydn and Mozart), but then he changed. His 'Eroica' has feelings. So does his 9th. And I can't tell you enough how much I dislike the 9th.
I like Early Beethoven, he was really good back then...


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

trazom said:


> Of course, with all composers central to the repertoire who's "better"(a vague and meaningless term) is only a matter of preference. Some prefer to be moved through the subtle emotion and wit in Haydn and Mozart....and others like to be mercilessly beaten over the head with sound until they're moved as with Beethoven.


As to the last segment of your comment regarding Beethoven, I don't want to speak on behalf of others, only myself for admitting the feeling of "being beaten over the head" largely explains why I personally have never been especially fond of a fair portion of Beethoven's music. I do very much enjoy his Triple Concerto, 4th Piano Concerto and sonatas for cello though.

Otherwise, following through with your first sentence above, with which I fully concur, my favorite Mozart SQs are The "Hoffmeister (#20) and #22, as performed by the Quartetto Italiano. My Haydn faves are his "Prussian" Quartets (op. 50) and his "Erdody" Quartets(op.76) perf. by the Tokyo Quartet.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> As to the last segment of your comment regarding Beethoven, I don't want to speak on behalf of others, only myself for admitting the feeling of "being beaten over the head" largely explains why I personally have never been especially fond of a fair portion of Beethoven's music. I do very much enjoy his Triple Concerto, 4th Piano Concerto and sonatas for cello though.
> 
> Otherwise, following through with your first sentence above, with which I fully concur, my favorite Mozart SQs are The "Hoffmeister (#20) and #22, as performed by the Quartetto Italiano. My Haydn faves are his "Prussian" Quartets (op. 50) and his "Erdody" Quartets(op.76) perf. by the Tokyo Quartet.


Who doesn't like that wonderful piece?


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I've always found the narrative flavor of Haydn's development sections more rhythmically surprising and exciting; the music seems to writhe, expand, and contract like a living thing or a story, whereas Mozart's quartets sound comparatively "stiff" passed the exposition.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I find Haydn's quartets and Mozart's to be quite different and would be hard put to place one composer ahead of the other. But Haydn definitely has the edge in quantity, which is a point in his favor!

Beethoven, of course, is another kettle of fish entirely.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I've always found the narrative flavor of Haydn's development sections more rhythmically surprising and exciting; the music seems to writhe, expand, and contract like a living thing or a story..."


Interesting comments. There are numerous moments when Haydn's inventiveness simply causes me to shake my head and smile in astonishment. No where else in his music is this truer for me than when I am listening to his Piano Trios.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Who doesn't like that wonderful piece?


Actually, it is my preferred piece of all he has composed. Favorite interpretations: Anda/Schneiderhan/Fournier with Fricsay conducting the Berlin Radio Symphony on Deutsche Grammophon and Arrau/Szeryng/Starker with Inbal conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra on Philips.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mozart's Quartets are relatively dense when compared to Haydn's.

As for me, I would take the Mozart String Quintets over both. That extra viola seemed to give Mozart an extra spark of inspiration.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Real time update:

I find the Mozart 6 Quartets Dedicated to Haydn as well as the 3 Prussian Quartets superior to any quartets Haydn ever wrote.

You see, there's genius and then there's GENIUS!!!


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Real time update:
> 
> I find the Mozart 6 Quartets Dedicated to Haydn as well as the 3 Prussian Quartets superior to any quartets Haydn ever wrote.
> 
> You see, there's genius and then there's GENIUS!!!


That's why Haydn, after listening to those quartets, confessed his honest opinion to Leopold about Wolfgang.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

jdec said:


> That's why Haydn, after listening to those quartets, confessed his honest opinion to Leopold about Wolfgang.


If Mozart was showing off by presenting those six string quartets to Haydn, he did an astonishingly fine job of it!!


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

"Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and, furthermore, the most profound knowledge of composition."
(Haydn to Leopold Mozart)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

jdec said:


> "Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and, furthermore,* the most **profound knowledge of composition."*
> (Haydn to Leopold Mozart)


Yes, that's a very famous quote. He wasn't lying regarding the last 6 words!!


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Extremely difficult. Haydn has given me more joy overrall (especially with his wonderful op. 33 quartets) but Mozart's Quartets Dedicated to Haydn are damn hard to beat, possibly the pinnacle of that classical form before Beethoven. 

I'll go with Haydn, though. The op. 76 just about tip the balance for me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> Extremely difficult. Haydn has given me more joy overrall (especially with his wonderful op. 33 quartets) but Mozart's Quartets Dedicated to Haydn are damn hard to beat, possibly the pinnacle of that classical form before Beethoven.
> 
> I'll go with Haydn, though. The op. 76 just about tip the balance for me.


I think we need a poll: Mozart's Haydn Quartets vs. Haydn's Op. 76.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I think we need a poll: Mozart's Haydn Quartets vs. Haydn's Op. 76.


I'm on it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

WildThing said:


> I'm on it.


Good. I don't even know how to do it!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Tallisman said:


> Haydn has given me more joy overrall


Ditto....Favorites currently include most of them from his opus 17, opus 20 ("Sun"), opus 33("Russian"), opus 50 ("Prussian"), opus 76 ("Erdody") and opus 77("Lobkowitz").


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

WildThing said:


> I'm on it.


But you did squeeze Beethoven in, right?


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Haydn67 said:


> Ditto....Favorites currently include most of them from his opus 17, opus 20 ("Sun"), opus 33("Russian"), opus 50 ("Prussian"), opus 76 ("Erdody") and opus 77("Lobkowitz").


Don't overlook the Op. 64 set either. Top flight Haydn there too!


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Pugg said:


> But you did squeeze Beethoven in, right?


Then it would be a done deal: Beethoven would win for me without any hesitation.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

IMHO, this is one of the most cogent and apt comparisons I've seen on this fine forum. For Mozart, I like his later, more mature quartets. For Haydn, I like them all. I can't say that I have a favorite of either composer. But between the two, my Haydn complete quartets box (Naxos) gets far more play time than my complete Mozart set (Italiano). T

The Haydn quartets offer what may be a lifetime of exploration.

-09


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Roi N said:


> ....snip....
> I like Early Beethoven, he was really good back then...


Before he sold out and went all commercial. :tiphat:


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