# Karl Jenkins -- your thoughts?



## tenor02

Just currious as to what you guys around here think of Karl Jenkins.

Some of his music:













personally....i like 'em. 
/flame_guard.exe


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## david johnson

i enjoy listening to his requiem & palladio.

dj


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## Andy Loochazee

Classic FM audiences seem to like him but they very rarely play any of his works on the BBC's Radio 3.


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## starry

Not sure I'm liking it that much. Some repetitions (along with the performance like in the harp piece) seem almost like film music. Very smooth but I'm not sure how deep.


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## hlolli

I'm going to sing the Armed Man this spring. And this music is to me unoriginal and boring. Nothing exciting about it! This guy should stick to film score or pop music.


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## Polednice

Err... I'm not sure that this should be classed as 'classical' or 'art music'. It might use orchestral instruments, but the rest of it kind of disqualifies the music :/ To me, it just sounds like an orchestrator's arrangement of some tunes that an aspiring 15-year-old musician weaved on a piano in 10 minutes. In all honesty, listening to the _Dies Irae_ from his 'Requiem' (not provided in the OP), I both cringed and laughed. I'm sure this works for some people, but not for me!

EDIT --- I also think it's quite indicative of this man's style that his _Palladio_ was used in a performance by an electronic string quartet for _Britain's Got Talent_...


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## StlukesguildOhio

I recently purchased Jenkin's _Stabat Mater_ as I am a fan of choral music and always on the lookout for new approaches to the choral genre. Reading up a bit before purchasing I took a chance considering the disc was on sale through an Amazon secondary dealer for a little over $2. I must admit that I was far from impressed. The music struck me as amateurish in many ways... a pop musician taking a stab at the classical genre... far too "new age" in sound. I am open to music that bridges the gap between genre such as Osvaldo Golijov, William Bolcom, John Zorn, Anouar Brahem, and others... but Jenkins just didn't hit the mark in my book.


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## Weston

I like his music. Having said that, I too don't consider it art music. I just like the mood of it and the timbres. There's a lot to be said for simple melodies. It's like having a pleasant landscape oil painting over your sofa. It doesn't change the world, just makes your room look comforting. In that respect I would almost classify it as new age.

But then I think the same thing about Gorecki sometimes.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Gorecki and Morten Lauridsen, and John Rutter are all far more interesting... and far more composers of "serious music" in my book... in spite of producing works with a similar pleasant... accessible sound. Of course... as a visual artist (a painter) I am not all that into the notion of the pleasant, comforting painting over the couch any more than I am into music as pleasant background "noise" for after-dinner drinks and conversation.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Or might just be more harsh on Jenkins because I have so much in the way of choral music... and so much that certainly can strike the listener as "comforting"... and so much that offers a great deal more by way of aesthetic experience.


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## tenor02

your thoughts on eric whitacre then stluke?


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## starry

You didn't ask me but I'll say that Whitacre did some good choral music.


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## Argus

Dude was in Soft Machine.

Hazard Profile Pt 1

Pt 2

Nuff said.


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## Artemis

Polednice said:


> Err... I'm not sure that this should be classed as 'classical' or 'art music'. It might use orchestral instruments, but the rest of it kind of disqualifies the music :/ To me, it just sounds like an orchestrator's arrangement of some tunes that an aspiring 15-year-old musician weaved on a piano in 10 minutes. In all honesty, listening to the _Dies Irae_ from his 'Requiem' (not provided in the OP), I both cringed and laughed. I'm sure this works for some people, but not for me!
> 
> EDIT --- I also think it's quite indicative of this man's style that his _Palladio_ was used in a performance by an electronic string quartet for _Britain's Got Talent_...


I agree. It's all pretty dreadful as far as I am concerned. It's not classical music as I understand it.


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## Polednice

I can't quite get over that Dies Irae, here it is for people who haven't listened to it yet:






I really want to know - for people familiar with the Requiem in music, and specifically what is signified by the Dies Irae, would you _ever, ever, ever_ think of music like this when thinking of the Dies Irae?


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## Rasa

Sung the armed man, cool music, no great depths.


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## StlukesguildOhio

your thoughts on eric whitacre then stluke?

I've heard very little by Whitacre... but it certainly strikes me as far more interesting... far more legitimately "serious" music. Other contemporary choral composers I am fond of include Arvo Part (obviously), James MacMillan, John Rutter, John Tavener, John Adams, Gorecki, Penderecki, Lutoslawski, William Mathias, David Lenz, Roberto Sierra, Veljo Tormis, etc...


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## tenor02

Polednice said:


> I can't quite get over that Dies Irae, here it is for people who haven't listened to it yet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really want to know - for people familiar with the Requiem in music, and specifically what is signified by the Dies Irae, would you _ever, ever, ever_ think of music like this when thinking of the Dies Irae?


it's taken me quite some time, but i've gotten "used" to it...i think that in the right setting it could be really quite effective, but finding that setting might take some time. also, i gotta agree with you guys; i dont classify him as a classical composer, however i think the world sound quality is pretty unique and adds a cool twist.


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## tenor02

StlukesguildOhio said:


> your thoughts on eric whitacre then stluke?
> 
> I've heard very little by Whitacre... but it certainly strikes me as far more interesting... far more legitimately "serious" music. Other contemporary choral composers I am fond of include Arvo Part (obviously), James MacMillan, John Rutter, John Tavener, John Adams, Gorecki, Penderecki, Lutoslawski, William Mathias, David Lenz, Roberto Sierra, Veljo Tormis, etc...


you should check him out; he's got some great choral stuff on youtube and his electronic opera is very unique.

also, may i also point you to http://www.eternallightrequiem.com/ -- Howard Goodalls 2008 Requiem. Im falling in love with it. I think he has the potential to be the next Rutter.


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## Edward Elgar

I listened to the Stabat Mater recently. He just copied material from his Armed Man. 

He's not very versatile. Popular rather than serious. He's in the same camp as John Rutter. (I think Rutter is a better composer (that's saying something!)) If we are talking about classical music, this guy is second rate if not lower. Nice chords, but it's already been said by Rasa, no great depths.

I think some composers reject contemporary music without even trying to understand it. This only leads to commercial pop music. Hey, it keeps classicfm happy!


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## Stunt21

Polednice said:


> I can't quite get over that Dies Irae, here it is for people who haven't listened to it yet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really want to know - for people familiar with the Requiem in music, and specifically what is signified by the Dies Irae, would you _ever, ever, ever_ think of music like this when thinking of the Dies Irae?


Oh - my - god.



PS: Hope that answers your question.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Polednice said:


> I really want to know - for people familiar with the Requiem in music, and specifically what is signified by the Dies Irae, would you _ever, ever, ever_ think of music like this when thinking of the Dies Irae?


Actually, it's _exactly _what I think Karl Jenkins would think was appropriate write for a Dies Irae, and it gave me no surprise. What grates, is the banality, triteness and unoriginality of it (and that modulation at 3:45 is truly ghastly). It reminded me of Conan the Barbarian (though forgive me if I don't reach for my copy of the soundtrack recording to check).


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## Falstaft

Agree that the Dies Irae is ridiculous.

But I don't think any of us classical aficionados need to feel _threatened _by Jenkins -- he's a skilled composer within his own, unchallenging style, generating a product that has obvious commercial appeal and some musical interest to the generous listener. Pity the audience member who thinks they're hearing high art music, if anyone like that actually exists, but no need to feel guilty if you enjoy it.

Indeed, some of his stuff is rather listenable if you're not expecting a late Beeth. SQ; Jenkins' splashy triadic language is actually intermittently fairly cool, certainly a cut above a lot of a lot of other "softer" listening. Chromatic sequences, voice-leading parsimony and other stuff that makes neo-Riemannians like myself go "squee." Hardly original, but not totally devoid of content either. Yeah, the form/orchestration/melody tends towards basic and verges on the embarrassing with some regularity as well. But to even compare it seriously w/ likes of Part, Gorecki & other avowedly classical composers seems only to invite scoffing resistance from people more predisposed to take anything like this remotely seriously. Taken on it's own terms (aka not art music) , Jenkins seems fine to me.

...I feel a bit strange writing this apologia for Jenkin's while listening to Babbitt's 3rd SQ. Oh well.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Falstaft said:


> Taken on it's own terms (aka not art music) , Jenkins seems fine to me.


But that's the point. It affects to be what it isn't and, in so doing, can mislead people. Is the harp piece the way it is because Jenkins wants to say something original about the harp and its relationship with the orchestra and this is what he has come up with? Or does it sound that way because he has calculated people will pay money for the CD, download and concert performance?


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## Il Seraglio

I don't know whether it has to do with Jenkins' orchestration or studio production techniques, but that Requiem has an incredibly flat, over-polished sound. 

The "Adiemus" or whatever it is sort of like the musical equivalent of those tatty imitation ethnic ornaments you might find in a discount store.


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## Earthling

Polednice said:


> I can't quite get over that Dies Irae, here it is for people who haven't listened to it yet:


WTF? Is this a joke? Sounds like a disco requiem. Hell, even Vangelis wrote better "classical" music. And even Rutter is far better...

This is "classical" like Kenny Gee is "jazz"!


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## millionrainbows

I don't like Adiemus, which I have; too new-age. I _do_ like the _Diamond Music_ CD, from which _Palladio _was used in a De Beers Diamond commercial. I don't care, the violins sound good to me. I'm familiar with Karl Jenkins from his days with Brit-jazz group Soft Machine.

Yes, judgments are very harsh on new composers, even if they are writing tonal music for traditional instruments. If it's "art music," they reject it as "too modern" or inaccessible; if it's soundtrack or commercial music, it is automatically rejected for not being "art" music. It's funny how critics always recognize "art" as a valid term when it suits their purposes, yet reject the term's validity when it's applied to music they dislike.

I think part of this strict harshness is that CM fans need the "shroud of history" to validate their music, and keep them in denial that CM is just another commodity genre competing in the mass-marketplace.


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## Tristan

Well, I mean, I like new age music like Enya, Celtic Woman, Vangelis, etc. so for his new-age music I do like Karl Jenkins. But I don't think of him for "classical"...


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## violadude

Oh ya, that Dies Irae...it's at least as good as Mozart's Dies Irae, if not better.

LOL!! jk..

Once upon a time I had a crush on a fellow musician at my school. After she told me she was a fan of Karl Jenkins I couldn't help but like her a little less...or maybe it was significantly less.

If I had to be in the viola section during a performance of Palladio I would probably be silently weeping throughout the entire performance. Then I would go home, take a much needed shower and cry myself to sleep.


Well anyway, those are my thoughts on Karl Jenkins.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I heard the Mass for Peace on the radio not too long ago, and I was very impressed. It was unique, powerful, intense, etc. just as a good choral work should be. It was definitely not new age, and I've heard his other stuff.


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## Neo Romanza

violadude said:


> Oh ya, that Dies Irae...it's at least as good as Mozart's Dies Irae, if not better.
> 
> LOL!! jk..
> 
> Once upon a time I had a crush on a fellow musician at my school. After she told me she was a fan of Karl Jenkins I couldn't help but like her a little less...or maybe it was significantly less.
> 
> If I had to be in the viola section during a performance of Palladio I would probably be silently weeping throughout the entire performance. Then I would go home, take a much needed shower and cry myself to sleep.
> 
> Well anyway, those are my thoughts on Karl Jenkins.


I feel you. Karl Jenkins belongs in the same category as Whitmire or Rutter. Totally unoriginal, commercialized, over-sentimental sugary pap.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Neo Romanza said:


> I feel you. Karl Jenkins belongs in the same category as Whitmire or Rutter. Totally unoriginal, commercialized, over-sentimental sugary pap.


Dont forget cheesy.


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## millionrainbows

violadude said:


> Oh ya, that Dies Irae...it's at least as good as Mozart's Dies Irae, if not better.
> 
> LOL!! jk..
> 
> Once upon a time I had a crush on a fellow musician at my school. After she told me she was a fan of Karl Jenkins I couldn't help but like her a little less...or maybe it was significantly less.
> 
> If I had to be in the viola section during a performance of Palladio I would probably be silently weeping throughout the entire performance. Then I would go home, take a much needed shower and cry myself to sleep.
> 
> Well anyway, those are my thoughts on Karl Jenkins.


Don't forget to clean the puke out of your viola, before it dries in there. :lol:

Hey, I don't know about the rest of you, but I found Palladio had a perfect aphrodisiac effect on the several women I tried it on. Maybe it was a subliminal influence of that De Beers commercial..."I might get a diamond..."

I love that album! after this Webern lieder, I think I'll get it out and play it. It's recorded very nicely. Hats off to Karl Jenkins' _Palladio!_ Hip hip! Hooray! I'm gettin' a sugar rush...this is better than the 1_910 Fruitgum Company,_ or _Children of Bodom..._


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## Neo Romanza

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Dont forget cheesy.


Oh, yes I can't for this adjective.


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## moody

Andy Loochazee said:


> Classic FM audiences seem to like him but they very rarely play any of his works on the BBC's Radio 3.


That's because it's Classic FM type music----NB this is not a compliment.


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## MagneticGhost

Don't like to be snobby. Based on what I've heard - I don't class him as Classical Music. 
It's like a children's picture version of a fine art painting. All primary colours and zero subtlety.
He's written some great tunes. And he's a nice guy.
But it's new age for me.


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## PetrB

My thoughts re: music of Karl Jenkins...

....... ......... .... .... .......... .....

... nope, not a one of 'em at all nice.


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## violadude

PetrB said:


> ... nope, not a one of 'em at all nice.


Awww, but that didn't stop me from sharing my thoughts, regardless.


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## millionrainbows

If Jenkins' Palladio was so 'juvenile, new age, and bad,' then how come it is so effective in selling diamonds? Because it's dramatic, rich, and oozes tradition and pomp.

Agreed, the vocal work _Adiemus_ doesn't do much for me, but I think the _Diamond Music_ album is all good; and serious string orchestra music. It includes the 3-movement _Palladio_, and Jenkins' S_tring Quartet No. 2 _(inspired by Vivaldi) as well as the lovely _Passacaglia _(...that's a set of variations on a ground bass, in case you mistaked it with "new age").

All the music is based firmly on classical and baroque techniques, so I don't see the problem. I've heard much more forgettable and trite wallpaper music from Vivaldi. The London Philharmonic Strings do a great job here.

So what if Jenkins has done award-winning advertising music, and was a jazz player? The classical music genre must compete in the mass-market just like popular genres. I think the critics here are stuck in the "historical museum" of CM, and are way too critical of newer CM, even when it is as traditional-oriented as Jenkins. I've heard soundtrack music, and John Williams music, that is way more commercial and trite sounding.


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## Kleinzeit

Huh. File under check this out one of these nights to see whats so divisive.

Respect for Robert Wyatt, he forged his own distinctive take-it-or-leave it sound, which i don't much like.

Remember liking Kevin Ayers in the 70s.


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## violadude

Kleinzeit said:


> Huh. File under check this out one of these nights to see whats so divisive.


Make sure to let us know what you think.


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## millionrainbows

Kleinzeit said:


> Huh. File under check this out one of these nights to see whats so divisive.
> 
> Respect for Robert Wyatt, he forged his own distinctive take-it-or-leave it sound, which i don't much like.
> 
> Remember liking Kevin Ayers in the 70s.


Hey, let's leave Robert Wyatt and Kevin Ayers out of this!



violadude said:


> Make sure to let us know what you think.


Well, if he manages to swallow his vomit, you'll never know for sure, will you?


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