# Difference Between Classic Music And A Film Score (newbie question)



## lovenhim (Jul 23, 2016)

Hello everyone. I am new to classical music. From a thread that I posted on this forum I learned to basically listen to whatever I could find. My classical music enjoyment is coming from "Best Of" compilations from my local library. I am also learning from the book Classical Music For Dummies. Last night I was listening to the film score for the first Harry Potter film. I began to notice some differences between classical music and a film score. A piece of classical music can stand on its own. This did not seem to be the case with the first Harry Potter score. Each piece of music fit into the story told in the movie. Each piece of music was like a piece to the movie puzzle. It was pretty neat being able to see the parts from the movie in your head or hear the dialouge from the movie in your head while listening to the film score. The score told the entire movie if you have seen the movie.
I was wondering if what I was hearing in the Harry potter film score was done with traditional instruments like you would find in classical music, or was I listening to parts of it being done on keyboards and synthesizers. I really enjoyed the film score. However you have to listen to the entire thing at once as it tells its story. So back to my question: What are the similarities and differences between classical music and a film score by John Williams or for a Harry Potter movie?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Many film scores use synthesized sounds, but to my knowledge John Williams rarely does this. He was trained as a composer by Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco and has written some concert works that would qualify as classical (though most probably haven't heard them and they're thought somewhat more "difficult" than his film music), but I don't think his or anyone else's film music is generally considered classical for the reasons you give, among others.

Classical music, as you said, is generally written to stand on its own. Even the exceptions, such as music for ballets or incidental music for plays, are written in the same kinds of forms as the absolute music and use the same style.

While much early film music was written by composers who made their name first in concert music (Korngold, Walton, Shostakovich), a lot of today's film music, the kind that does use synthesized instruments and sounds, is much closer to New Age than classical.

Many classical music fans look down on film music because it's seen as a bit of an illegitimate brother to classical and is usually somewhat simpler in its idiom, but there are also a good number that enjoy it and we do have a forum specifically dedicated to movies and movie music.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I see no reason why some film music couldn't be considered classical, as ballet music is. One of Prokofiev's most popular pieces is his _Alexander Nevsky_ suite, which is drawn from his score to the Eisenstein film of the same name. Takemitsu wrote a lot of film scores, though I don't know that they're performed or recorded much on their own. If a composer wants to consider his or her film music to be classical, why not?


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

In my opinion, the difference between Classical and Film Music, is the difference between a piece written creatively, perhaps with a commission in mind and a piece written commercially, for a narrow purpose. The same forces are used, but the intent is different. Before the advent of film, popular entertainment consisted of opera (and musicals, of course). None but the most obtuse would consider opera music inferior, or not belonging, to the Classical tradition. This said, film scores seem to be viewed as lesser works, by Classical snobs mostly. In some ways, I must admit that I am one, though not to the extent that I once was. I do segregate my Star Wars soundtracks from my Ibert concertos, but I think only because it makes things easier to find. I think the distinction between soundtracks and more traditional classical will continue to be blurred, but this is only my opinion, and one not backed up by substantial authority.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

I think one difference between film composers like John Williams and what we now call classical music - all film music will of course eventually be considered classical music, if it isn't already - is how completely film composers have to conform to the requirements of the director: The music has to go on for exactly THIS length of time, and punctuate the action at precisely THESE moments. Under the circumstances, it's almost inevitable that a lot of the music accompanying the film won't be very good. Even classical ballet (post-Rameau, pre-Stravinsky) composers weren't so constrained. (And there's always a lot of padding in classical ballet, even in Tchaikovsky.)

This is different in a score like Ennio Morricone's for The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, where the composer writes some self-contained pieces and the director choreographs the action around them.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

lovenhim said:


> Hello everyone. I am new to classical music. From a thread that I posted on this forum I learned to basically listen to whatever I could find. My classical music enjoyment is coming from "Best Of" compilations from my local library. I am also learning from the book Classical Music For Dummies. Last night I was listening to the film score for the first Harry Potter film. I began to notice some differences between classical music and a film score. A piece of classical music can stand on its own. This did not seem to be the case with the first Harry Potter score. Each piece of music fit into the story told in the movie. Each piece of music was like a piece to the movie puzzle. It was pretty neat being able to see the parts from the movie in your head or hear the dialouge from the movie in your head while listening to the film score. The score told the entire movie if you have seen the movie.
> I was wondering if what I was hearing in the Harry potter film score was done with traditional instruments like you would find in classical music, or was I listening to parts of it being done on keyboards and synthesizers. I really enjoyed the film score. However you have to listen to the entire thing at once as it tells its story. So back to my question: What are the similarities and differences between classical music and a film score by John Williams or for a Harry Potter movie?


Lovenhim, you might find this discussion interesting:
http://www.talkclassical.com/42112-movie-themes-soundtracks-category.html?highlight=


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

This topic (or ones very similar) is quite a regular occurrence on boards such as this one.

I don't believe that it is possible to answer the question by considerations of music structure. 

It is easier to look at it in terms of whether or not film music is generally considered to be classical music by the majority of people who profess an interest in the latter. 

Some film music may be fairly described as classical music (e.g., some of the scores written by Korngold), but generally it is not seen as such by most people who take a big interest in classical music. Furthermore, film music and classical music tend not to be performed by the same type of artists, except of rare occasions.

To suggest that film music is classical music is like suggesting that operetta is also classical music. Operetta isn’t classical music for the same reasons, namely that it generally appeals to a different segment of the music-loving public and is normally performed by a different set of artists.


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## MysticCompose (Aug 6, 2016)

Movies use a lot of the A Tonal procedure, to set scenes. I know there are A tonal classical pieces too, but not made specific for a duration.
But I'd like to make clear John Williams often writes complete pieces for movies. Jurassic Park is almost entirely complete written pieces. Steven Spielberg just has them cut up to sit in the film correctly. I listen to this album like I would any other album.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

MysticCompose said:


> But I'd like to make clear John Williams often writes complete pieces for movies. Jurassic Park is almost entirely complete written pieces. Steven Spielberg just has them cut up to sit in the film correctly.


I define the score as whatever you hear in the course of watching the film. Anything else is "Suite from..."


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

I suppose it should be acknowledged in conversations like this that Philip Glass' score for The Hours is probably the most popular work by an important classical composer since... geeze, Appalachian Spring, maybe? (Or West Side Story if it counts.) I'm pretty sure that score sucks about as bad as the movie it accompanies, but that's not the point.


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## MysticCompose (Aug 6, 2016)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> I define the score as whatever you hear in the course of watching the film. Anything else is "Suite from..."


Fair enough. But don't you think that's a little obvious? A small child could point out that the music in movies isn't complete. Why would that need to be pointed out? On the other hand some might not be aware the composer actually finishes the work. I took the question the original poster asked as what is musically different, or why not call film music classical? I could be terribly wrong though.


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## lovenhim (Jul 23, 2016)

MysticCompose said:


> Fair enough. But don't you think that's a little obvious? A small child could point out that the music in movies isn't complete. Why would that need to be pointed out? On the other hand some might not be aware the composer actually finishes the work. I took the question the original poster asked as what is musically different, or why not call film music classical? I could be terribly wrong though.


You read me right. I am new to all of this, so the idea or question is: What makes traditional classical music and film score music the same and/or different? I will use Harry Potter as an example. While the music from the first movie tells a story in the order in which the songs are on the cd....the instruments seem to be the same instruments that are used in classical music....just played with more "drama". There are parts of the Harry potter music that I can not tell if I am hearing a real instrument or some sort of digital/computer "auto tuned" counter part. I like the music from the Harry potter movies just as I like the films, and the books are even better. Doing some looking online I see that the score for the first movie was done by John Williams. I am typing all of this to learn and understand and do not want to create a debate about music. LOL


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MysticCompose said:


> Movies use a lot of the A Tonal procedure, to set scenes. I know there are A tonal classical pieces too, but not made specific for a duration.
> But I'd like to make clear John Williams often writes complete pieces for movies. Jurassic Park is almost entirely complete written pieces. Steven Spielberg just has them cut up to sit in the film correctly. I listen to this album like I would any other album.


The reason that MysticCompose refers to it as "A Tonal" is because Mahlerian has a 'search and destroy' engine which he has set up to detect the correct spelling whenever it is input. MysticCompose wanted to refer to "A Tonal" music without being accosted and chastised. It looks like it worked, so far...


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## lovenhim (Jul 23, 2016)

I think that me being a newbie, I might have that so called "newbie advantage". In that I can enjoy the music for what it is, how it makes me feel, and if I like it or not. The cool thing is that I do not care to analyze it at this point. That would make it more like a school music class....which takes the fun out of enjoying the music for what it is. LOL I can say this so far about my basic classical music experience, my least favorite classical dude is J. S. Bach. Yep....Bach. When it comes to the periods of classical music I prefer the romantic period the best, then the classical period, with baroque being my least favorite of the three. Again this is based on "Best Of" collections from my public library on CD. As I type this my favorite piece of classical music is Dvorak: Serenade for Strings, Fourth Movement.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2016)

You might be interested in this interview Hans Zimmer did on Reddit. On some of his movies, and those where his studio team worked, it's clear that synthesised instruments have been used. In fact, Zimmer reportedly used synthesisers for the whole of Driving Miss Daisy.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1v88ck

Whilst film music and concert classical have much in common, the need to cut, stretch and fill to make the music fit a movie gives it a whole different structure than a piece composed without such a constraint. For some of us, the apparent need to call movie music 'classical' seems to stem from some inferiority complex, while the need for some to dismiss movie music as not classical seems to stem from some superiority complex!

My own preference is to enjoy movie music where it belongs - watching the movie. I have only a few OSTs (and only one set, for Lord of the Rings) and I would much rather watch, for example, 'Inception' and see how action and sound complement each other than listen to the sound alone. Having said that, hearing themes from great movies gives me chills!


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## lovenhim (Jul 23, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> You might be interested in this interview Hans Zimmer did on Reddit. On some of his movies, and those where his studio team worked, it's clear that synthesised instruments have been used. In fact, Zimmer reportedly used synthesisers for the whole of Driving Miss Daisy.
> 
> 
> __
> ...


I like your angle on this. Basically both sides of the debate have a complex. LOL Driving Miss Daisy is a good flick. If I think about the music in it I can hear that it is electronic now. I still think that I am in a cool position about classic music. I am new enough to the music to simply enjoy it for what it is. I have not been around long enough to develope the bias for this and that. I do not know enough to judge any of the music.....as if I know more than the dude who wrote it in the first place. LOL For me it is all about enjoying the music and learning to like what I like. Right now as I type this I am not a big fan of J. S. Bach and I do not "feel" the excellence of Beethoven's fifth symphony. Sure it is a timeless piece of music but it does not move me or speak to me at all. I am enjoying listening to new music and finding out what I like and also do not care that much for.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Speaking broadly[/u: The difference is that in classical music you have to imagine the narrative in your imagination, if the music has one, such as Beethoven Pastoral Symphony; in film music the narrative is literally shown onscreen. Big difference. But there are times when film music can stand on its own even if its critics are unwilling to admit that because they consider film music categorically inferior. Well, I don't. I greatly admire many of the film composers because they are productive and could possibly write five good film scores when it seems that most classical composers take years producing something that might be inferior. Also, they are a great number of classical composers who have produced film scores, such as Aaron Copland and Dimitri Shostakovich. But most film scores are the result of a collaboration with the onscreen imagery and the producer of the film.


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

To answer the poster's question about artificial instruments in the first Harry Potter film score: the score was performed by a 102 piece symphony orchestra. It was recorded at the Lyndhurst Road Congregational Church in Hampstead, near London. The celesta part was played on a synthesizer keyboard to eliminate the extraneous sound of hammering on the instrument and to give it a fuller range of 88 keys.

Also, film scores are recorded differently from classical. The microphone placement is different, usually (more microphones, placed closer to instruments/instrument groups), for greater control of mixing the sound for dramatic effect. Also, some parts may be recorded separately and layered into the final mix, such as parts for chorus, eletcronic effects, etc. It may be this heavy "process" on the back end that contributes to a sometimes slick, "artificial" feeling.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

"In general," film music is written snippet by snippet to enhance the mood of an already shot (and usually already edited) scene or group of scenes, in a way that director and composer agree upon ("I want this scene to call to mind the majesty of sailing on the open ocean . . ." "I want a smidgen of suspense music leading up to the gunshot ..."). There can be over-arching themes that recur in various guises (Star Wars, Harry Potter) that bring unity to the film and its feel, but music is just one means to a collaborative end, not one of the raisons d'etre, as it is for opera, and certain ballets. Movie music is generally not through-composed, but whether or not you call is classical is an individual judgment.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

The following thread contains a protracted debate about "what classical music is" as well as John Williams' place in it.

John Williams: worthy addition to the canon or charlatan?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

If your average person heard this in an adventure movie, they would think it's part of the film score not a classical piece. Probably one of the best examples in Classical music. It's also my favourite movement.






I think Beethoven was one of the composers who really thought about film scoring as an ideal in his mind. This is how he tends to sound different from Brahms, who had more of a conventional realistic standard. Beethoven jumps more right into scenes, with contrasts and actions.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Ethereality said:


> If your average person heard this in an adventure movie, they would think it's part of the film score not a classical piece. Probably one of the best examples in Classical music. It's also my favourite movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, where did Beethoven get his ideas about film?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Film scores are background music to enhance the visual and push people towards appropriate moods. They sound like classical music because they are played by the same ensemble classical music is played. They are generally much less interesting on their own, without the visuals.

Classical, well symphonies, not so much operas, are abstract musical creations meant to be consumed by the ear alone (and perhaps by those who want to read the score).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> They are generally much less interesting on their own, without the visuals.


Which is the reason why people find soundtracks they hear while watching horror films not at all "difficult", but they find contemporary stuff that is essentially like "horror film music" difficult.




Context is important


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

^ I don't find the above program-like piece 'difficult.' Just not that interesting compared to more rhythmic and motivic music, even a good film score. Film music might be weak because it relies on visuals to a _degree_, but overall it tends to have more effective musical elements than contemporary avant-garde music: The idea is that rhythm and motive convey a scene much more effectively to humans, which is why The Rite of Spring or The Planets is more relatable to most people than say, a Mahler symphony, strangely enough. I think Holst and Stravinsky thought "you don't need to be cheesy to be catchy" ie. like Strauss waltzes. With them we have a kind of contemporary ideal more similar to the Classical era. Structure, theme, and variation. Not on the same level as Brahms of course.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Which is the reason why people find soundtracks they hear while watching horror films not at all "difficult", but they find contemporary stuff that is essentially like "horror film music" difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never heard that one by Stockhausen. I think it would be wasted in a horror film. It may remind someone of music in a horror film, but is not background music, nor music composed specifically for horror films which is more reduced/simplified than contemporary music, just like romantic film music like Rota's Romeo and Juliet and Max Steiner's Gone with the Wind is not Tchaikovsky.

Classical music can be used as film music, like Bartok's Music for Percussion, Celesta, Strings in the Shining, but not the other way around.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> If your average person heard this in an adventure movie, they would think it's part of the film score not a classical piece. Probably one of the best examples in Classical music. It's also my favourite movement.
> 
> I think Beethoven was one of the composers who really thought about film scoring as an ideal in his mind. This is how he tends to sound different from Brahms, who had more of a conventional realistic standard. Beethoven jumps more right into scenes, with contrasts and actions.


In 2016 Williams said that Beethoven would have shunned film scoring. 
In 2020 he stated that Beethoven certainly would have tried his hand at film, and only hated the editors butchering his music.

Williams must be very convincing. 
Or maybe Ludwig simply doesn't want to hear about this anymore...


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> I think Beethoven was one of the composers who really thought about film scoring as an ideal in his mind. This is how he tends to sound different from Brahms, who had more of a conventional realistic standard. Beethoven jumps more right into scenes, with contrasts and actions.





TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Hmm, where did Beethoven get his ideas about film?


Maybe not film score as we know it but there is some truth that he would describe a scene with sounds.
Take the 4th movement of Pastoral Symph. as an example. Every first time listener would say it did sound like thunderstorms and heavy rain.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> In 2016 Williams said that Beethoven would have shunned film scoring.





Axter said:


> Maybe not film score as we know it...


It was more than his surrounding reality could summon. It was more than the operas or films could portray to him. It is more than a virtual reality could fool him into believing. It was more than dreams on the briskest night. It was the imagination.


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