# Weakest symphonic movements



## Richannes Wrahms

In a symphony it often happens that the inner movements, occasionally the finale instead, are lighter in character than the outer movements on purpose. This is of course for various good reasons I do not think it is necessary for me to explain. However, sometimes it occurs that one of this kind of movements seems significantly weaker than the rest of the movements of the work. 

I don't like to "cheat" but when I do I skip the "Scène aux champs" from Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique as well as the Ländler from Mahler's Symphony No. 2 which reduces both symphonies to 4 great movements. 

My queries are: Do you regularly skip entire movements from multi-movement works? Which do you think are the weakest movements ever grouped with far greater movements in multi-movement works?

:devil:


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## Aramis

Classical symphonies and their 3rd movement menuets - embodiment of boredom. Scherzos that replace them are not much better. Even the advanced Mahler scherzos. Or maybe "especially", not "even" in this case.


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## Guest

I don't know about weakest overall, but damn do the first two movements of Beethoven 7 make the last two look weak by comparison.


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## Vinyl

There are concertos, Mozart and Chopin come to mind, but there are more - Ravel is there, Prokofiev - where all I really want to hear is the middle, slow movement. 
Symphonies I guess I have too much respect in some silly way to skip too much. 
I do believe the Adagio from Mahler's tenth stands perfectly on its own...


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## dgee

Finale of Beethoven 9 -I love the rest but I'll always skip the finale if I can (I don't think it's weak, I just don't feel it does justice to what comes before). 

Lots of popular Symphonies, to my mind, are let down by weak finales - Mahler 5&7, Bruckner 4&7, Borodin 2, Tchaik 4, Rach 2, Walton 1, Brahms 1, Beethoven 5...


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## techniquest

To my mind the finale of Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony is awful - compare it to the rest of the symphony, especially the 1st movement and it stands out as being bombastic and empty. I feel the same about the 3rd movement of the 6th symphony though it's nowhere near as bad really. Similarly (but not exactly) the finale of Sibelius' 5th symphony.


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## dgee

Techniquest - couldn't agree more about Tchaik 4 but the genius of 6 is the ordering, aftering the sublime 5/4 waltz and the heart-rending finale. If I ever wanted to listen to Tchaik I would only do the last 3 mvts of 6 and maybe Romeo and Juliette for old time's sake. I have to whole-heartedly disagree with you on Sib 5 - it's banging in general (the long tune and vaulting horns with modulation is a great symphonic moment!) although the last 30 seconds or so are a bit funny-weird it has to be said

Spoken as a fan of neither PIT or JS!


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## DeepR

Beethoven - Symphony no. 5
I'll never get this one. After the completely fantastic heroic finale of the famous first movement, I find the second movement so disappointing and banal sounding. Also, the rest of symphony barely makes up for it.


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## LancsMan

arcaneholocaust said:


> I don't know about weakest overall, but damn do the first two movements of Beethoven 7 make the last two look weak by comparison.


 OK the scherzo is not a favourite of mine but not sure I see the finale as weak. A bit drunken maybe.


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## GreenMamba

Like dgee, I sometimes find that last movements are a letdown, especially some Romantic period ones which can be exhausting. 

I have a fondness for scherzos and rarely find one I don't like.


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## techniquest

> ...I have to whole-heartedly disagree with you on Sib 5 - it's banging in general (the long tune and vaulting horns with modulation is a great symphonic moment!)...


This is the wonderful thing about music - how it affects us so differently. It's the 'vaulting horns' that I find so weak, especially towards the end when it seems as though poor ol' Sibelius had got fed up with the whole thing and just decided to stop. Of course it's vastly superior to Tchaikovsky 4 last movement, but it loses the chance of being a strong movement when it fails to maintain the development of the vaulting thing which it started so well in the quieter central section (IMHO of course).


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## Winterreisender

I usually love Brahms but I find the slow movements of most of his symphonies (especially 1 and 2) sort of boring.


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## dgee

Just reflecting on Tchaik - the fifth, save the lovely waltz, is particularly prone to accusations of bombast. It can be put in perspective somewhat by murmurs of "Who's got the key to the ******-house?" to the opening clarinet theme, and then the triumphant conclusion at that delightful major key gear change at the end when the protagonist can finally wail out "I've got the key to the (etc)" lolz

There are more words but I can't remember them now - there are plenty of "words" to standard rep orchestral pieces enjoyed by orchestral musicians the world over


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## BiggusD

Good post. I find a lot of the inner movements, especially of Mahler, whose symphonies I adore, to be just fillers or "B-sides", if you will.


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## spradlig

I've posted this several times in different threads: I find the last movement of Beethoven's Third Symphony very weak, especially compared to the first three, which I like very much. The main theme of that movement is extremely lame, and even Beethoven can't do much with it. I like one or two of the variations, but that's it. It mystifies me that he used the same theme for at least two other works.

This is just my opinion/personal taste, of course. I did write that I like the first three movements, and he wrote a lot of great music, period.


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## Mahlerian

I find the finale of Tchaikovsky's First abysmal. It's a shame because the first three movements are actually quite charming (even if their development does consist primarily of sequential repetitions), and you'd enjoy a rousing finale to cap it off, but it's bombastic and repetitive and the repetition of the introductory material manages to stop an already sluggish momentum.


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## CBD

I have skipped the finale of Prokofiev's 6th a few times because it sounds weak to me after the great first and second movements. I think he should have put the 3rd movement first and the first movement last. Unconventional, but I think it would have made the symphony much more powerful.


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## Symphonical

Aramis said:


> Classical symphonies and their 3rd movement menuets - embodiment of boredom. Scherzos that replace them are not much better. Even the advanced Mahler scherzos. Or maybe "especially", not "even" in this case.


I agree with you to some extent that classical and early romantic 3rd movements can be extremely repetitive. Sometimes, I find myself a little bored with the Scherzo from Beethoven's Eroica or Symphony No. 7. But when Mahler's scherzos is mentioned, I have to wholeheartedly disagree. Mahler's Scherzo from his 5th is my favourite movement from that whole symphony. It's brilliant! 
I feel as if Mahler brought more to this movement of a symphony than any other composer. His scherzos are full of colour and are more interesting than ever before.


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## MozartEarlySymphonies

I find it weird that most of the movements mentioned earlier, (most notably minuet movements, Beethoven's Seventh Symphony 3rd and 4th Movements, Brahms Second Symphony 2nd Movement and Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony 4th movement.) are some of my favorite Symphony Movements. 

For me I can't give a weak symphonic movement. Its very hard for me to not like a piece of music unless it is today's pop music, or Weber's Silvana.


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## Alfacharger

I love the first three movements of Dvorak's 4th Symphony but the finale, what was he thinking!!!


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## Skilmarilion

DeepR said:


> Beethoven - Symphony no. 5
> I'll never get this one. After the completely fantastic heroic finale of the famous first movement, I find the second movement so disappointing and banal sounding.


Oddly enough, this is one of my absolute favourite movements in any symphony. There aren't many double theme-and-variation movements like it. He weaves the ideas in and out of each other masterfully, and the graceful first theme heard in the cellos, is absolutely beautiful.


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## Mahlerian

I love the second movement of Beethoven's Fifth too, as well as any Mahler that's been mentioned.



Alfacharger said:


> I love the first three movements of Dvorak's 4th Symphony but the finale, what was he thinking!!!


...that's pretty bad alright.


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## MozartEarlySymphonies

Mahlerian said:


> ..that's pretty bad alright.


Plus I didn't really like the last movement of Weber's First Clarinet Concerto. I know this is a symphony thread but I thought I put it out.


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## PetrB

Yeah, I have no time at all for those weak symphonic movements: they can't even lift a one-gallon can of paint. What use are they?


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## Aramis

Thanks for bringing the Dvorak 4th up, never got to hear it and this movement is simply amazing. No intentionally bad pieces sound as funny as this one. Also uplifting for other composers that somebody capable of creating masterpieces could write such a piece of crap even as mature artist attempting a symphony for the fourth time already.


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## clavichorder

Mahlerian said:


> I find the finale of Tchaikovsky's First abysmal. It's a shame because the first three movements are actually quite charming (even if their development does consist primarily of sequential repetitions), and you'd enjoy a rousing finale to cap it off, but it's bombastic and repetitive and the repetition of the introductory material manages to stop an already sluggish momentum.


I strongly disagree. It does repeat a lot and there are parts of it I do not care for as much, but parts of it contain the most dramatic and hair raising moments in the whole symphony.


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## Cosmos

I'd say the scherzo movements of Bruckner's first three symphonies are the weakest I've heard.  all brass and no spirit IMO


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## revdrdave

I don't like the finale of Nielsen's Third Symphony. Pretty tune, but not, to my ears, one of his stronger movements. Even more to the point, it seems utterly out of place relative to the three movements that precede it, as if Nielsen needed a finale, had this one laying about, and tacked it on the end.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Mahlerian said:


> ...that's pretty bad alright.


It's almost completely rubbish. [the finale to Dvorak's 4th Symphony]

On an unrelated note, I've always thought better of Tchaikovsky's 1st (more powerful than 2 and 3) and 5th than the others. Even after repeated listening I still find the 6th equal to his 5th + second rate Berlioz. All that obsession with his management of scales in the 6th (scale originated melody and accompaniment had been already done by everyone) is almost as bad as the arguments in favor of Beethoven 8th based on a dynamic marking.


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## scratchgolf

Skilmarilion said:


> Oddly enough, this is one of my absolute favourite movements in any symphony. There aren't many double theme-and-variation movements like it. He weaves the ideas in and out of each other masterfully, and the graceful first theme heard in the cellos, is absolutely beautiful.


I also love the 2nd movement. The third though seems like nothing more than a glorified buildup to the 4th. Also, sticking with Beethoven, The 2nd movement of the 3rd and the finale of the 7th have never done much for me.


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## techniquest

> I have skipped the finale of Prokofiev's 6th a few times because it sounds weak to me after the great first and second movements. I think he should have put the 3rd movement first and the first movement last. Unconventional, but I think it would have made the symphony much more powerful.


Interesting; and the reason why I always disagree when people say the 6th is better than the 5th. Not sure I'd put the finale into the 1st movement slot though; I think he should have _not_ left it at 3 movements but composed a stronger 4th movement to serve as the the finale since, for me, the 3rd movement works well in that slot only if it's a 4-movement symphony.


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## Eviticus

It never ceases to amaze what different people take from the same pieces. I think the finale of Brahms 1st, Tchaikovskys 5th, and Beethovens 5th are the highlights of the whole symphonies. I don't particularly like the way the 3rd movement of Tchaikovsky's 5th ends the recurring theme in the minor only for the to start finale immediately in the major but love the movement itself.

I'll go with the finale of the Eroica to be easily the weakest. As someone said before - _most_ classical minuets are usually the weakest but there are great ones (Mozarts 40th, Beethovens 1st).


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## tgtr0660

There's no such a thing as a type (or positioning) of movement that I find often weak. As everything in life, composers can't be always at the same level at all times. An example for me of one of my favorite composers in of of my favorite symphonies is Bruckner. I love the 7th despite its (for me) weak finale. A composer that gave us the finale of the 8th sadly (in my view) fails to round up THE perfect symphony by adding what for me is a total drop in quality after two of the best first and second movements ever and a pretty decent scherzo. The finale seems out of place, belonging to a different piece. But Bruckner himself composed great finales.


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## Radames

Beethoven 9th Symphony finale. Schiller's ode has a corny streak. Can we change the words?


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## LouisMasterMusic

DeepR said:


> Beethoven - Symphony no. 5
> the rest of symphony barely makes up for it.


 I think it's so overplayed, which is why I prefer the "Pastoral".


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## LouisMasterMusic

Cosmos said:


> I'd say the scherzo movements of Bruckner's first three symphonies are the weakest I've heard.  all brass and no spirit IMO


 Bruckner is incredibly boring to listen to, even though I only know one tiny bit of the second movement of the Ninth Symphony. They're too long, which is also a problem with Mahler, although he's not as boring in terms of musical material.


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## Cosmos

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Bruckner is incredibly boring to listen to, even though I only know one tiny bit of the second movement of the Ninth Symphony. They're too long, which is also a problem with Mahler, although he's not as boring in terms of musical material.


Agree to disagree, because I love Mahler AND Bruckner. Though I admit, I found Bruckner boring at first, but he's grown on me since


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## DrKilroy

If you know only a tiny fraction of the composer's output, I don't think you are entitled to say it is boring.

Best regards, Dr


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## DaDirkNL

scratchgolf said:


> I also love the 2nd movement. The third though seems like nothing more than a glorified buildup to the 4th. Also, sticking with Beethoven, The 2nd movement of the 3rd and the finale of the 7th have never done much for me.


The 2nd movement of the eroica is one of the most beautiful slow movements I know. It's a shame you don't like it.
As for the finale of the 7th: I can understand someone not enjoying it as well as enjoying it.


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## Mahlerian

DrKilroy said:


> If you know only a tiny fraction of the composer's output, I don't think you are entitled to say it is boring.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Nor, if you've never listened to, let alone understood, a complete work, do you have any basis on which to say it's too long...


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## Orfeo

dgee said:


> Just reflecting on Tchaik - the fifth, save the lovely waltz, is particularly prone to accusations of bombast. It can be put in perspective somewhat by murmurs of "Who's got the key to the ******-house?" to the opening clarinet theme, and then the triumphant conclusion at that delightful major key gear change at the end when the protagonist can finally wail out "I've got the key to the (etc)" lolz
> 
> There are more words but I can't remember them now - there are plenty of "words" to standard rep orchestral pieces enjoyed by orchestral musicians the world over


Bombast? With such dignity? Nah.


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## Orfeo

I'll say the finales of Glazunov's 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th Symphonies. Not that they're bad (actually they are pretty well written), but as compared to the previous movements, the working out process in some ways gave Glazunov more of a challenge than he had probably anticipated, and the end-result is that of long-windedness. For instance, the Seventh Symphony, close to being a masterpiece, has a highly effective, easy going first movement, a profoundly beautiful slow movement (andante), and a tour de force scherzo. The finale, though, as expertly written (typical Glazunov), kind of integrate the ideas of the previous one, but with the level of inspiration that wanes a bit. Not an untypical problem of this sort for most composers, though, particularly Russian (consider the finales of, say, Scriabin's Second, or Balakirev's Second, or, dare I say, of Bruckner's early symphonies or Tubin's First and Third, or some of Shostakovich's orchestral works).


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## Tristan

Agh, all you people skipping finales...makes me want to pull my hair out 



dgee said:


> Finale of Beethoven 9 -I love the rest but I'll always skip the finale if I can (I don't think it's weak, I just don't feel it does justice to what comes before).
> 
> Lots of popular Symphonies, to my mind, are let down by weak finales - Mahler 5&7, Bruckner 4&7, Borodin 2, Tchaik 4, Rach 2, Walton 1, Brahms 1, Beethoven 5...


I think this is literally the wrongest post I have ever read on this site  (I'm being light-hearted, so don't jump down my throat!) The finale to Tchaikovsky's 4th is one of my favorites of all time! That symphony comes very close to being the "perfect symphony" for me 

But I am a finale buff, I must admit. I don't like unnecessary or rushed bombast for the sake of bombast, but I have always been drawn to an exciting finale (which I think is paralleled in my love of dubstep drops). There's nothing better than a symphony with a satisfying conclusion. But then again, I could never skip an inner movement either, even if I find some of them a tad on the boring side.

Anyway, my nomination has to agree with the first example posted: third movement minuets in Classical-era symphonies. I just find them more often than not, boring and uninspired. And for me, boring is the greatest sin in music. I can't listen to music if it's boring.


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## LouisMasterMusic

Cosmos said:


> Agree to disagree, because I love Mahler AND Bruckner. /QUOTE] We're all entitled to our opinions; I'm not offended, and I hope you're not either.


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