# Heitor Villa-Lobos



## MrCello

I feel Villa-Lobos doesn't receive enough credit for his works, there is often very little mention of him anywhere I feel, saying this as an undergraduate musicologist.

I'm listening to his "Discovery of Brazil" at the moment and I feel like this is some of the best music I've listened to.

Is this because he's from South America?


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## Sid James

He isn't exactly a household name here, but some of his works are being performed here now. Esp. his chamber music, which requires smaller forces, obviously.

I think that Brazilian pianist Cristina Ortiz when she's on tour does often perform his music, that's if audiences are receptive in the place where she's going. In Europe or USA, she would probably most likely play him, a longer work, whereas if she came here all the calcified jurassics would probably want to hear something like the Tchaikovsky concerto, usual stuff we've heard a zillion times.

Anyway, I digress, but maybe not? He is one of my favourite composers, I only "discovered" him in 2009 when I joined this forum. Of course I'd read about him before that, and probably heard the famous Bachianas #5 on radio, but that would have been it. I got an old LP of John Williams playing Villa's _Concerto for guitar and small orchestra_, and that was the beginning of my journey into his music. It has included getting some recordings on CD as well as hearing his music live. In the BBC last night at the proms concert, one of his _Choros_ pieces with choir was featured. 2009 was the fiftieth anniversary of his death.

I set up a thread on him a while back, when I was making those discoveries -

http://www.talkclassical.com/4690-heitor-villa-lobos.html

I have not heard the work you mention, but I have a number of favourites by him, chiefly his _Bachianas Brasileiras_ and some of the _Choros_, as well as some of his chamber works on a Naxos disc I have. Apart from his guitar concerto, the _Fantasia for soprano saxophone & orch_. is also great. His solo piano works are interesting, kind of Debussy plus Brazilian style, _Rudepoema_ is just amazing, it's on youtube, listen to the Marc-Andre Hamelin recording, it just enthralled me to no end, that virtuosity is like Ravel's _Gaspard de la nuit_, but less polished, more rough and gutsy. _Momoprecoce_ comes across to me as almost like a piano concerto fashioned out of_ Rudepoema_, but not literally, it's also different, imaging the carnival in Rio.

He is an interesting composer, very prolific. TC members here Conor and violadude have been listening to his string quartets which according to them are very good works...


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## NightHawk

Here's _Bachianas Brasileiras_ No. 6 - 1. Aria 2. Fantasia






Both instrumentalists are very good, but the bassoonist is extraordinary!!!



Sid James said:


> He isn't exactly a household name here, but some of his works are being performed here now. Esp. his chamber music, which requires smaller forces, obviously.
> 
> I think that Brazilian pianist Cristina Ortiz when she's on tour does often perform his music, that's if audiences are receptive in the place where she's going. In Europe or USA, she would probably most likely play him, a longer work, whereas if she came here all the calcified jurassics would probably want to hear something like the Tchaikovsky concerto, usual stuff we've heard a zillion times.
> 
> Anyway, I digress, but maybe not? He is one of my favourite composers, I only "discovered" him in 2009 when I joined this forum. Of course I'd read about him before that, and probably heard the famous Bachianas #5 on radio, but that would have been it. I got an old LP of John Williams playing Villa's _Concerto for guitar and small orchestra_, and that was the beginning of my journey into his music. It has included getting some recordings on CD as well as hearing his music live. In the BBC last night at the proms concert, one of his _Choros_ pieces with choir was featured. 2009 was the fiftieth anniversary of his death.
> 
> I set up a thread on him a while back, when I was making those discoveries -
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/4690-heitor-villa-lobos.html
> 
> I have not heard the work you mention, but I have a number of favourites by him, chiefly his _Bachianas Brasileiras_ and some of the _Choros_, as well as some of his chamber works on a Naxos disc I have. Apart from his guitar concerto, the _Fantasia for soprano saxophone & orch_. is also great. His solo piano works are interesting, kind of Debussy plus Brazilian style, _Rudepoema_ is just amazing, it's on youtube, listen to the Marc-Andre Hamelin recording, it just enthralled me to no end, that virtuosity is like Ravel's _Gaspard de la nuit_, but less polished, more rough and gutsy. _Momoprecoce_ comes across to me as almost like a piano concerto fashioned out of_ Rudepoema_, but not literally, it's also different, imaging the carnival in Rio.
> 
> He is an interesting composer, very prolific. TC members here Conor and violadude have been listening to his string quartets which according to them are very good works...


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## Frasier

Both his big film scores are excellent (and, given HVL isn't always the best interpreter of his own work) well performed by him. His Discovery recording is mono but Forest of the Amazon is an utterly brilliant recording made around 1958. He surpassed himself in every way with it! That particular recording was released on CD titled "Inspiration Brazil". Apparently it didn't contain all the material (though it took up 45 mins on the original LP) and do-gooders have completed it, resulting in at least two CDs. I'm familiar with one, Renee Fleming being the soprano soloist. It's all right, I suppose, but she doesn't have that saudade of Bidu Sayao. 

One reason HVL is rarely played is the oft-times extreme difficulty of his work. He shoots himself in the foot. Like, the gentle introduction of Uirapuru abruptly bursts into a march-type thing for a few bars. Time signature? 3/4. Three beats to the bar! But that's a small example. Even the "little train" score is complicated. And he usually works instramentalists to extremes. This is specially notable in his chamber music. Try the trio for oboe clarinet and bassoon. The players must be knackered by the end of it. Likewise the Quintette en forme de Choros.

If you play piano, for instance, try Rudepoema.


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## Manok

I discovered him last year or the year before, and couldn't believe someone with so much output is overlooked. Not to mention, has some of the most interesting symphonies and what not I've heard in awhile.


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## Tapkaara

A big THANK YOU to this thread. HVL is a composer I have been meaning to listen to for quite a while. This thread reminded me of some listening I have to do.

I read about him on Wikipedia. I am impressed by several things about his personality. He adventurously traveled into the jungles of Brazil to hear folk music and get a feel for the colors and emotions of the jungle. I like that he felt a need to fashion and promote a unique kind of Brazilian musical idiom. And I like the fact that he was a conservative, or "backwards-looking" as some may be wont to say. He stayed true to a wholesome musical philosophy even when the harsh winds of change toward the avant-garde where, no doubt, whipping past him like tropical hurricaine-force winds.

I took in his early tone poem Uirapuru on Youtube last night. A fascinating work. masterfully orchestrated Just as Sibelius evokes the stark northern forests in his Tapiola, Villa-Lobos creates a steamy, lush and even sensuous feel of the jungle in his work. I could even smell the jungle. I rarely have such a strong sensory reaction to music.

I heard some snippets of his guitar compositions. Gorgeously melodic. I was getting sleepy and started to listen to his 4th Symphony and was enjoying its wild optimism and grand orchestration. This reminded me of Khachaturian (one of my favorite composers) in one of his more giddy moods. I have to listen to the rest of the symphony.

Initial feelisngs are very positive and this may be one of those moments where a major discovery is made. Time to spend some dough on Villa-Lobos...


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## Fsharpmajor

Tapkaara said:


> Initial feelisngs are very positive and this may be one of those moments where a major discovery is made. Time to spend some dough on Villa-Lobos...


Get this boxed set on the BIS label:

*http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12300*

It's listed on Amazon for $56.40. I only have some of the individual CDs from the series, but I can confirm that the performances and sound are exceptionally good.


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## Tapkaara

Fsharpmajor said:


> Get this boxed set on the BIS label:
> 
> *http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12300*
> 
> It's listed on Amazon for $56.40. I only have some of the individual CDs from the series, but I can confirm that the performances and sound are exceptionally good.


I shall look into it...


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## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> ...And I like the fact that he was a conservative, or "backwards-looking" as some may be wont to say. He stayed true to a wholesome musical philosophy even when the harsh winds of change toward the avant-garde where, no doubt, whipping past him like tropical hurricaine-force winds...


Uh, where did you get that. "Conservative" is not what I'd attach to him, although some of his pieces were more of the times/trends he lived in, eg. he jumped on a lot of bandwagons, eg. neo-classicism with his_ Bachianas _pieces.

But seriously, "conservative?" I haven't read the wiki article, I've mainly consulted books with articles on him. He was very good friends with guys like Varese, who was far from conservative. He sketched out a piece based on the contour/silhouette of the New York skyline, this was before 1945 I think, so he kind of anticipated guys like Cage and Feldman with that piece. There's loads I can go on. Listen to Hamelin playing his solo piano work, a mammoth piece, called_ Rudepoema _on youtube. This was written for Artur Rubinstein (was he another "conservative" because his specialty was the Romantics? What about him supporting and playing Villa's music?). It's probably not "atonal" or whatever, but you must admit, that it kind of leaves "innovators" (I dislike these labels, I try not to resort to them) like even Stravinsky dead in their tracks, at least with regards to Igor's solo piano music, but probably a lot else besides...


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## Tapkaara

Sid James said:


> But seriously, "conservative?" I haven't read the wiki article, I've mainly consulted books with articles on him. He was very good friends with guys like Varese, who was far from conservative.


I am friends with Christians, but that doesn't make me one. I am not that familiar with either Varèse or Villa-Lobos, but my initial impressions say they do not sound an awful lot alike.



Sid James said:


> He sketched out a piece based on the contour/silhouette of the New York skyline, this was before 1945 I think, so he kind of anticipated guys like Cage and Feldman with that piece. There's loads I can go on. Listen to Hamelin playing his solo piano work, a mammoth piece, called_ Rudepoema _on youtube. This was written for Artur Rubinstein (was he another "conservative" because his specialty was the Romantics? What about him supporting and playing Villa's music?). It's probably not "atonal" or whatever, but you must admit, that it kind of leaves "innovators" (I dislike these labels, I try not to resort to them) like even Stravinsky dead in their tracks, at least with regards to Igor's solo piano music, but probably a lot else besides...


Please excuse my ignorance of Villa-Lobos as I am merely in the process of discovering him. But nothing I heard in his 4th Symphony (1919), for example, would I consider to be very avant-garde, or even strikingly modernist. Now mind you, it was written only in the early part of the 20th century, but I think even Stravinsky was writing music of a much more modernist bent by this period.

Does anyone else consider Villa-Lobos to be an excpetionally "anti-conservative" composer?


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## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> ...
> Does anyone else consider Villa-Lobos to be an excpetionally "anti-conservative" composer?


Pardon for being so direct, but is there a need to legitimise or label a composer as "conservative" or "radical" or whatever? Isn't it enough to just like them? Do we need to drive certain agendas here all the time? I'm not singling you out, you are not doing a crime, I'm just questioning this kind of thinking in general.

But more relevantly, basically all of the major composers did a variety of things, all between the "conservative" and "radical" spectrum. Of course, some were more one thing than another thing, or just in-between or very hard to classify.

I personally just go by what I like, it's simple as that. Some things by certain composers I like, some things I don't. I haven't heard that symphony, but his choros pieces, the_ Rudepoema _& to an extent_ Momoprecoce _speak to more "radical" side of Villa-Lobos, his work in those with rhythm and structure was as innovative as anything back then, incl. Stravinsky.

& conservative listeners, if we want to call them that, tend to dislike his music, or a lot of it, due to his freedom with rhythm and structure, etc. Probably thematic development as well, which was kind of unexpected & organic. Just look back on the earlier thread I created on Villa that I linked above here in my first post. Some very negative views from the person who you say is your bugbear, he gave the reasons for him being a bad composer for not being traditional enough, stuff like that.

But it's just your perception and your experience. I'm not invalidating it. But I don't think of Villa as a conservative, not at least in the stricter sense of the word...


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## Tapkaara

Sid James said:


> Pardon for being so direct, but is there a need to legitimise or label a composer as "conservative" or "radical" or whatever? Isn't it enough to just like them? Do we need to drive certain agendas here all the time? I'm not singling you out, you are not doing a crime, I'm just questioning this kind of thinking in general.


But isn't Karajan "old hat," "stodgy" and "anachronistic?"

We all have agendas, Sid. You better believe I have mine and it's rather apparent you have yours. Embrace that, my friend!

Based on my EXTREMELY preliminary assessment of Villa-Lobos's sound, I would lable him a conservative. But you see that word as a perjorative, thus your unease in labeling him as such. I actually see it as a compliment. And accurate, especially if you compare him to other major composers active at the time such as Stravinsky, Schönberg, Webern, etc...


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## Sid James

I have my agenda but I tend to uncover and question it constantly. That's why my posts tend to be so long, or long-winded, I am working out my thoughts aloud, I am not trying to set absolutes that fall quickly in a heap.

Anyway, let's just leave the issues on von Karajan for that thread, it's better I think.

If we were man to man or eye to eye, I could explain to you my view, you to me your view. This is the limitation of online discussion, hard to reach middle ground.

I don't think he's more or less radical than the composers you mentioned, just different. For one thing, he's not from European region, that alone sets him apart as quite a different entity. But of course he had many links with Europe and Western music, as much as that of Brazil, etc.

If you have access to things like Grove Music Online, that would be more authoritative source on him & music in general. Or things like that. Wikipedia is good, but for me it's only often a starting point. & I mostly like hard copy books, I'm a dinosaur in that way, but I hope not in my thinking!

ANyway, whatever you see him as, it's good that you're getting into him, there are many riches in his output. Yes, I would agree a lot of it is approachable or "accessible" or whatever. I like both his more experimental and traditional things equally, but I think overall he was a man of his time, he did take in new trends, but in his own way. He was a bit like Ives, a kind of individualist reflecting the vastness and epic landscape of his country, on the "new" continents, the new world, he was respectful of the old world but he was building his own visions...


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## tdc

I am starting to appreciate him more. In my mind he is more cutting edge, but from the pieces in my collection (which is only Bachianas Brasilieras, and varius works for guitar) I can often hear a very traditional side of him as well - though I wouldn't classify him as 'conservative'. His Choros no. 1 in E minor is a staple of the classical guitar repertoire. His stuff seemed not my tastes at first, but he has grown on me. Right now I'm listening to his 'Three Preludes' for guitar - lovely stuff.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Try this recording of his saxophone fantasia. I enjoyed it. (The CD also includes the Glazunov alto saxophone concerto).


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## Philip

tdc said:


> I am starting to appreciate him more. In my mind he is more cutting edge, but from the pieces in my collection (which is only Bachianas Brasilieras, and varius works for guitar) I can often hear a very traditional side of him as well - though I wouldn't classify him as 'conservative'. His Choros no. 1 in E minor is a staple of the classical guitar repertoire. His stuff seemed not my tastes at first, but he has grown on me. Right now I'm listening to his 'Three Preludes' for guitar - lovely stuff.


Isn't it the _five_ preludes, or are you talking about something else?

Villa-Lobos is a giant in the guitar repertoire, mainly because he was himself a guitarist, and for that reason Segovia directly commissioned his 12 guitar studies. These studies are very advanced but leave a lot of room for interpretation.


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## tdc

Philip said:


> Isn't it the _five_ preludes, or are you talking about something else?


You're right it is Five Preludes. Though on a greatest hits compilation cd I bought ages ago they just put preludes 1, 3 and 5 on the recording and labeled them _Three Preludes_.


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## Philip

tdc said:


> You're right it is Five Preludes. Though on a greatest hits compilation cd I bought ages ago they just put preludes 1, 3 and 5 on the recording and labeled them _Three Preludes_.


Gotcha... Well it's true that those are arguably the best preludes though, #1, 3, 5.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Villa-Lobos is extremely well known to classical guitarists.


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## Tapkaara

I ordered the complete Bachianas Brasileiras on Naxos. Can't wait to dive into this music and I'll let y'all know what I think.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I'm playing his prelude no. 2 on guitar at the moment.


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## Tapkaara

I received my complete Bachianas Brasileiras today and I just popped it in the player. I'll let you know what I think.


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## Tapkaara

My impressions of the first Bachiana are very positive!

This is stunningly melodic music, richly scored for 8 cellos. I love the chocolately-dark sonorities Villa-Lobos is able to conjure. The music also has a great sense of nostalgia. The first two movements were very impressive to me, in particular.

Impressed, am I!


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## starthrower

That Naxos set is on my endless list of things to get. I love Brazilian music!


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## Llyranor

Tapkaara said:


> My impressions of the first Bachiana are very positive!
> 
> This is stunningly melodic music, richly scored for 8 cellos. I love the chocolately-dark sonorities Villa-Lobos is able to conjure. The music also has a great sense of nostalgia. The first two movements were very impressive to me, in particular.
> 
> Impressed, am I!


Yeah, I really like the 1st Bachiana as well.

The preludio enchanted me from the beginning. But on repeated listens, it's actually the fugue/3rd movement that keeps me coming back.

This is the version I have. Lovely!





Haha, I just checked my iTunes. Listened to the first 2 movements 6 times each. Listened to the 3rd one 35 times 

(er... 37 now)


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## starthrower

I decided to purchase the more comprehensive 7 disc set on BIS instead of the Naxos 3 CD set. I'm up to disc 4 and so far I'm loving this music. It's beautiful, soulful, colorful music with a great variety of instrumentation. I particularly like BB no. 4 for solo piano, but it's all good!


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## Guest

I may be a bit late to chime in, but the BIS Bachianas/Choros/Guitar set is available as a download from ClassicsOnline for $30. This was one of my first classical music purchases and I have enjoyed it immensely. In fact, I am inspired to listen again....


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## starthrower

I was reading some of Sid James's Villa-Lobos thread and it was funny to see a Stravinsky vs Villa-Lobos argument developing. I don't know why anyone would compare these two composers? They have such different sensibilities. Their music sounds nothing alike. Villa-Lobos has that romantic melancholia you hear in a lot of Brazilian music. There is also an extroverted and joyful element in much of the music. The compositions possess an effortless free flowing graceful quality that I find similar to Poulenc. I never get the feeling that Villa-Lobos took himself as seriously as Stravinsky did himself.


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## lucasbiblio

Hi guys,

I think it's opportune for the topic. OSESP (São Paulo Symphony Orchestra) has just released the box containing all the symphonies of Heitor Villa-Lobos by the Naxos. This is one of the most important projects in the recent history of the discography of Brazilian music: the recording of the symphonic integral of the composer Heitor Villa-Lobos. This box, which has garnered international critics praise over the past few years, includes all the volumes of the series, in a total of 6 CDs. The project, which also includes the edition of the sheet music, helps to shed light on the complexity and diversity of the composer's creation, becoming a reference hereafter in the study of his legacy for Brazilian music. The records also testify to the current quality of the orchestra and the work of conductor Isaac Karabtchevsky who, since recording the integral of the Brazilian Bachianas in the 1970s with the Brazilian Symphony Orchestra, became one of his most intelligent and sensitive performers. We are talking about a work that will remain for the history of music as the reference of the HVL symphonies for any execution of the works from now on.

The box is being sold internationally, here in Brazil it costs around U$ 26, a bargain for an work like this.

This is the definitive edition of the Villa-Lobos symphonic work.


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## R3PL4Y

Villa lobos is one of my favorite composers. I really like the color that he brings to all of his orchestral scores. As great as some of the recordings out there are, I would like to hear more recordings of his music by more different orchestras.


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## Pugg

lucasbiblio said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I think it's opportune for the topic. OSESP (São Paulo Symphony Orchestra) has just released the box containing all the symphonies of Heitor Villa-Lobos by the Naxos. This is one of the most important projects in the recent history of the discography of Brazilian music: the recording of the symphonic integral of the composer Heitor Villa-Lobos. This box, which has garnered international critics praise over the past few years, includes all the volumes of the series, in a total of 6 CDs. The project, which also includes the edition of the sheet music, helps to shed light on the complexity and diversity of the composer's creation, becoming a reference hereafter in the study of his legacy for Brazilian music. The records also testify to the current quality of the orchestra and the work of conductor Isaac Karabtchevsky who, since recording the integral of the Brazilian Bachianas in the 1970s with the Brazilian Symphony Orchestra, became one of his most intelligent and sensitive performers. We are talking about a work that will remain for the history of music as the reference of the HVL symphonies for any execution of the works from now on.
> 
> The box is being sold internationally, here in Brazil it costs around U$ 26, a bargain for an work like this.
> 
> This is the definitive edition of the Villa-Lobos symphonic work.
> 
> View attachment 101876


It's the same as the single CD'S though?


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## Pugg

​
Heitor Villa-Lobos (*Rio de Janeiro, 5 maart 1887* - 17 november 1959)


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## Oldhoosierdude

I'm listening to this for the 3rd or 4th time in the last 6 months. I haven't purchased yet, but think I will. I don't understand why he isn't as well know/thought of/talked about as say Stravinsky or Martinu.


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## starthrower

Maybe not here, but I get the impression Villa-Lobos is better known than Martinu. At least I've heard his music on classical radio over the years. I've never heard any Martinu.


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## leonsm

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I'm listening to this for the 3rd or 4th time in the last 6 months. I haven't purchased yet, but think I will. I don't understand why he isn't as well know/thought of/talked about as say Stravinsky or Martinu.
> 
> View attachment 128331


These are a sensacional set of works. I think the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Bachianas should be played in the standard repertoire.

Concerning Villa-Lobos orchestral music, I recommend his 3rd Symphony. I'm still exploring his other symphonies yeat.

His Choros are amazing too, as well as his Guitar and Harmonica Concerto.


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