# Bach Passions



## DavidA

With Easter aporoaching look at Passion music. Bach apparently wrote five passions only which two have come down to us - the St Matthew and the St John.
Without debating which is the greatest, say which is your favourite and which recordings of each would you recommend


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## Bulldog

I prefer the St. Matthew; favorite recording is Herreweghe's 1st on Harmonia Mundi (1985).


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## Pugg

If I can only have one: Peter Schreier conducting St. Matthew.
( Karajan close second)


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## tdc

Bulldog said:


> I prefer the St. Matthew; favorite recording is Herreweghe's 1st on Harmonia Mundi (1985).


+1

Just picked up this recording recently, its great and has given me a new appreciation and different perspective on the work.


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## Bulldog

tdc said:


> +1
> 
> Just picked up this recording recently, its great and has given me a new appreciation and different perspective on the work.


Glad you're enjoying the set.


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## Bruckner Anton

My personal favorite is Karl Richter's last recording of St. Matthew (though his earliest 1958 version is better acclaimed).


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## premont

Bulldog said:


> I prefer the St. Matthew; favorite recording is Herreweghe's 1st on Harmonia Mundi (1985).


So do I, and I share your favorite version, closely followed by Leonhardt's and van Veldhoven's for HIP and Karl Richter's 1958 version for traditional performance.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Tricky to choose between the two, as I love them both, but I'd have to go with the St Matthew. Favourite recordings? Again, that's a tough choice because there are some great ones out there. For HIP, it's probably Herreweghe* for me, although (as already noted) the recent recording by Jos van Veldhoven is very fine. For non-HIP, my "first love" was the Karl Münchinger set, and it's still one of my favourites, although Georg Solti's 1990s digital recording is pretty darned good. If I might be allowed a sneaky extra category of "One Voice Per Part", the Dunedin Consort under John Butt are hugely impressive, as ever.


* Edit: For clarity, I mean Herreweghe's 1999 recording.


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## DavidA

For St Matthew I have:
Richter's 1958 version - older style but full of devotion
Gardiner - swift and well sung but for me lacking that last degree of devotion
Herreweghe 1 - really good
Harnoncourt - might be best all round?
Jacobs - intensely dramatic despite some experimental balances


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## lluissineu

I must admit I'm not a big fan of Bach's music: that means I have only 2 or 3 versions of The suites, brandenburg concerts, passions, Missa, Christmas Oratorio, all cantatas by Harnoncourt, some keyboard works, cello suites and violin partitas. But his music has never been my cup of tea. (Sorry to all Bach's Absolutely devoted lovers -Who I think they're right, but... Sometimes I'm a little deaf).

Some friends Who love Bach have acclaimed Klemperer's St Mathew's Passion. What do you think?.


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## Bulldog

lluissineu said:


> Some friends Who love Bach have acclaimed Klemperer's St Mathew's Passion. What do you think?.


For its time, it's a fantastic version. With the arrival of period instruments, minimal vibrato and quicker tempos, Klemperer can become tiresome. Be prepared for some very/very/very slow tempos.


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## lluissineu

Bulldog said:


> For its time, it's a fantastic version. With the arrival of period instruments, minimal vibrato and quicker tempos, Klemperer can become tiresome. Be prepared for some very/very/very slow tempos.


I am. I've got this recording, along with some other. 'Erbarme dich mein gott' Is simply unbelievable (if You're not in a hurry).


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## DavidA

Bulldog said:


> For its time, it's a fantastic version. With the arrival of period instruments, minimal vibrato and quicker tempos, Klemperer can become tiresome. Be prepared for some very/very/very slow tempos.


Sorry, Klemperer's leaden tempi rule it out for me. Bach's music is essentially dance and those tempi are just stretching things right beyond reason.


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## KenOC

For those bored by seemingly endless recitatives in Bach's passions, I recommend listening only to the good parts.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/bach-s-passions-reader-s-digest-versions


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> For those bored by seemingly endless recitatives in Bach's passions, I recommend listening only to the good parts.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/bach-s-passions-reader-s-digest-versions


I don't understand German but I'm never bored by the recitatives given an evangelist who is a great story teller as they are so inaginitvely written. Take Gura for Jacobs or the incomperable Haeflinger for Richter. They certainly keep my interest.


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## DavidA

For the St John Passion there are some marvellous versions of this great work. I have at the moment

Gardiner 
Suzuki
Bruggen
Jacobs

All have their merits.


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## Pugg

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Tricky to choose between the two, as I love them both, but I'd have to go with the St Matthew. Favourite recordings? Again, that's a tough choice because there are some great ones out there. For HIP, it's probably Herreweghe* for me, although (as already noted) the recent recording by Jos van Veldhoven is very fine. For non-HIP, my "first love" was the Karl Münchinger set, and it's still one of my favourites, although Georg Solti's 1990s digital recording is pretty darned good. If I might be allowed a sneaky extra category of "One Voice Per Part", the Dunedin Consort under John Butt are hugely impressive, as ever.
> 
> * Edit: For clarity, I mean Herreweghe's 1999 recording.


Plus: It's got Bostridge on it.
Minus : Scholl.


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## hpowders

I would rather listen to 4'33" on a continuous loop than all those boring recitiatives.


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## premont

Bulldog said:


> For its time, it's a fantastic version. With the arrival of period instruments, minimal vibrato and quicker tempos, Klemperer can become tiresome. Be prepared for some very/very/very slow tempos.


I regret to say that I already got tired of it in the late 1960es, long before any HIP-versions appeared.


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## Animal the Drummer

Like most fellow posters I'd go with the St.Matthew Passion, and like some I have a fondness for Klemperer's sometimes anachronistic but, for me, tremendous performance.


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## DavidA

I must say now that after several hearings Jacobs has topped the bill for me n the St John Passion. So searingly intense and dramatic.


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## jenspen

DavidA said:


> For the St John Passion there are some marvellous versions of this great work. I have at the moment
> 
> Gardiner
> Suzuki
> Bruggen
> Jacobs
> 
> All have their merits.


Of these four I have heard only the Suzuki and I have only one other recording of this Passion.

The crystalline beauty of the singing and the sincerity with which Suzuki adheres to Bach's devout intent moves me very much.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> I would rather listen to 4'33" on a continuous loop than all those boring recitiatives.


Agreed. I love Bach's music but the recitatives are not music. Opera recitatives are boring too. All recitatives are boring. No music.


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## jenspen

DavidA said:


> Sorry, Klemperer's leaden tempi rule it out for me. Bach's music is essentially dance and those tempi are just stretching things right beyond reason.


I think it was on these forums that I once posted that Klemperer's soloists for this recording had difficulty sustaining the phrases at his tempi and tried to explain the problem to him. His witty putdown is celebrated in several places on the internet.

The choir was conducted by somebody else. I don't know how that worked out as I have not yet listened to this recording.


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## jenspen

DavidA said:


> I don't understand German but I'm never bored by the recitatives given an evangelist who is a great story teller as they are so inaginitvely written. Take Gura for Jacobs or the incomperable Haeflinger for Richter. They certainly keep my interest.


The singing of the Gospel text was a disappointing surprise for me when I first heard a Bach Passion but now I could listen to the likes of Ernst Häfliger forever and we are given time to recover from the arias....


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## hpowders

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Agreed. I love Bach's music but the recitatives are not music. Opera recitatives are boring too. All recitatives are boring. No music.


Bach should have been heavily fined in Munich recitative court. It was the only way to stop him.


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## Bulldog

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Agreed. I love Bach's music but the recitatives are not music.


Let's see. Bach recitatives often have instrumental playing and always have singing; sounds like music to me. Plus, some of his most compelling and beautiful music resides in those boring recitatives.

Bach thought it worth his time to compose them; it's easily worth my time to listen.


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## DavidA

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Agreed. I love Bach's music but the recitatives are not music. Opera recitatives are boring too. All recitatives are boring. No music.


Correction. They are boring to you. Some of us find them thrilling. Get a great evangelist like Gura or Haeflinger and they became alive as the gospel narrative progresses. To call them 'no music' is somewhat ridiculous in my opinion.


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## DavidA

jenspen said:


> Of these four I have heard only the Suzuki and I have only one other recording of this Passion.
> 
> The crystalline beauty of the singing and the sincerity with which Suzuki adheres to Bach's devout intent moves me very much.


Suzuki is himself a devout Lutheran


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## isorhythm

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Agreed. I love Bach's music but the recitatives are not music. Opera recitatives are boring too. All recitatives are boring. No music.


Of course they're music, what else would they be?

I understand finding the recitatives in Mozart's operas boring, but not in Bach's Passions. They're as integral to the drama as everything else.

Of the two passions I slightly prefer the St. Matthew and my favorite recording is Herreweghe 1999, though I've also enjoyed Jacobs and Harnoncourt.


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## Marc

Sorry I'm late. Christ has already risen and is preparing for his Ascension.

I don't prefer just one of the Passions. I prefer them both. 

The Johannes is more extravert, and the Matthäus introvert. The Matthäus is probably better balanced, which is also due to the writer (Matthäus himself). The Johannes pumps my blood, and the Matthäus comforts me. Something like that.

I can't say which recordings are my favourites. If I had to pick only one for each work, I'd probably go for Hermann Max (SMP, Capriccio) and John Eliot Gardiner (SJP, 1st recording for DG/Archiv).

But then I wouldn't be able to listen to my favourite Evangelist anymore: Kurt Equiluz. Thanks to him I already began to love the recitatives during my teenage years. So I would smuggle some Harnoncourt and Corboz, too.


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## premont

Marc said:


> I don't prefer just one of the Passions. I prefer them both.


Well put.



Marc said:


> I can't say which recordings are my favourites. If I had to pick only one for each work, I'd probably go for Hermann Max (SMP, Capriccio) and John Eliot Gardiner (SJP, 1st recording for DG/Archiv).


Good choices. Both would be among my top five.


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## Marc

premont said:


> Well put.


In recent years, the Matthäus has gained some ground.
As a 'young lad', I was really dazzled by the Johannes.



premont said:


> Good choices. Both would be among my top five.


I think that probably Leonhardt offers the best balanced and 'Lutheran service-like' Matthäus.
But unfortunately René Jacobs lost his best form during the 1980s, which is audible.
The completely non-artificial yet very involved performance of "Erbarme dich, mein Gott" in Max's recording (sung by Lena Susanne Norin) still sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime experience to me. And the entire performance is very good, too: swiftly paced, yet never hasty.


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