# Granate's Beethoven Symphony Challenge - Table 3 (WE 1 - FR, NTH, RUS, ITA)



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

*General introduction to the threads*

This thread is one part of my Beethoven Symphonies Challenge. It will be divided in six episodes or "tables", and will compare a number of Symphony cycles in terms of performing quality and sound. The content of the six tables is closed, so please, don't ask for any cycle to be included.

When each thread is opened, it means they offer my impressions of my favourite cycles and some remarks. You can ask me for my opinion of a lesser rated cycle inside the board and I'll try to reply whenever I can.

Each "table" (except T1) is divided according to the location of the orchestra.


*Table 1* Mono + Historically Informed Performances.
*Table 2* Cycles made in the USA.
*Table 3* Western Europe 1 (Netherlands, France, Italy).
*Table 4* Western Europe 2 (Switzerland, Austria and the UK).
*Tables 5 & 6* German orchestras
Depending on the time, I may do further challenges between the winning sets from Tables 2-6. There is no cutting line in that case. It's possible that one table sends 2 runner-ups and others have 4. Luck can always be a drawback. A decent cycle in the results may not be a waste of time.

Please, take these threads as a recording recommendations and advice for potential buyers. I'm both taking notes of each symphony recording and filling an Excel board with all the cycles and their marks.

Recordings tested on Superlux HD 668B headphones, not speakers.

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*Table 3 - Western Europe Beethoven Cycles (Part 1)*


*Conductor**Orchestra**Release*Giulini, Carlo MariaFilarmonica della Scala1994, SonyHaitink, BernardConcertgebouworkest Amsterdam1994, PhilipsJochum, EugenConcertgebouworkest Amsterdam1969, PhilipsKubelík, RafaelVarious Orchestras1976, DGPletnev, MikhailRussian National Orchestra2007, DGSawallisch, WolfgangConcertgebouworkest Amsterdam1993, WCTremblay, Jean-PhilippeOrchestre de la Francophonie2009, AnakletaVriend, Jan Willem deNederlands Symfonieorkest2012, Challenge


*Conductor**Symphonies**Orchestra**Release*Giulini, Carlo MariaNos.6,7,8,9LSO+NPO+CSO1974, WCGiulini, Carlo MariaNos.3,5,6,9LAPO+BPO1982, DGTennstedt, KlausNos.3,6,8London Philharmonic Orchestra1987, WCTennstedt, KlausNos.5,6,9London Philharmonic Orchestra1992, LPO

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If the second table was a tough fight to see which conductor won by a landslide, the fight in Table 3 was to see who earned the first fail. This episode was incredibly underwhelming. There were almost no differences in style between everyone, especially the Amsterdam cycles. 70% of the marks barely moved from the 6 decimals. I couldn't tell if they were doing fine or not, but my ears were never in love with any in particular. Only three conductors deserve appreciation here, and whether the winner goes to the final or not is going to depend on the next episodes. His average is maybe too low to be considered a tough contender but there can be surprises.

*10th: Sawallisch.* Utter irrelevance. At some times it looked clearer in soundscape than the Haitink efforts, but the muddy echoing, the dullness and the petrifying conducting sinks the cycles almost in the bottom.

*9th: Tremblay.* Brisk, sometimes with muddy sound and others quite clean. Live recordings and the conductor whispers. The orchestra, especially the strings, are colourful. Usually in the bottom-middle positions.

*8th: Giulini Scala.* With Symphonies 1 & 2 it looked like a broad but solid cycle, but from then on and until No.8 the quality flopped dramatically. It could have had a certain personality but it went middle-of the road.

*7th: Haitink Amsterdam.* The interpretations are an acquired taste. The great surprise is that there is no serious flop if we consider the whole episode. Good account of the No.5 and very clean, cold but precise sound. The performances can look usually dull.

*6th: Vriend.* Odd dynamics, very fine sound and the orchestration uses the last edition to sound less broad. I can understand it has fans.

*5th: Pletnev.* Very good modern sound with eccentric conducting, especially in No.6. The set is gifted with very good accounts of No.4, No.5 and even No.9, and No.6 is quite good. It should need a second listen.

*4th: Jochum Amsterdam.* The warm sound is what Philips wanted for the contemporary Bruckner and Mahler sets with Haitink. The results are no less different. It promised to be one of those fine cycles with the sound I liked, but out of some spares like No.2, No.3 and No.8, the interpretations are dull.

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There are two conductors in this challenge who didn't get a full cycle but conducted or recorded spare recordings throughout their career with a solid and characteristic style. They usually have rougher sound.

















Beethoven
_*Symphonies No.5 & No.9*_ Live recordings
Lucia Popp, Ann Murray, Anthony Rolfe Johnson, René Pape
London Philharmonic Orchestra & Choir
*Klaus Tennstedt
LPO (1990s / Reissue Editions)*

*3rd: Tennstedt LPO (LPO).* The label has released/reissued (from the BBC files) Symphonies No.5, No.6 & No.9, while No.1 and No.7 were previously in the BBC Classics issues. Tennstedt had also recorded for EMI/Warner Symphonies No.3, No.6 & No.8, which had fine sound and conducting but never struck me as the first time. The LPO issues have a rougher sound in stereo but quite enjoyable. No.1 and No.7 were fine live performances.

*No.5* is a tour de force and one of my favourite interpretations in discography. It's spectacular in performance and conducting. 
*No.6* is very strong in the wind section. Well-conducted and dramatic in the epic storm movement. The stereo sound is fairly good. 
*No.9* in 1992 is not the top pick I remembered from 2 years ago, because the first two movements are fine. Magic happens in the second half, with loud timpani and dynamic conducting.

















Beethoven
_*Symphonies Nos. 3, 5, 6 & 9*_
Julia Varady, Jard van Nes, Keith Lewis, Simon Estes
Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra
Ernst Senff Chor
Berliner Philharmoniker
*Carlo Maria Giulini
Deutsche Grammophon (1979-1989)*

*2nd:* Before the unfinished Scala cycle, *Carlo Maria Giulini* recorded several individual symphonies in Los Angeles, Chicago, London and Berlin. He started with a Pastoral with the New Philharmonia and a No.7 with the Chicago Symphony in 1970, both for EMI then. While No.6 flows correctly, without any fantastic feature, No.7 has a rougher sound (mostly in the first movement) but instead grows in conducting. With the LSO, he recorded the two last symphonies. I thought the No.8 was too standard, and No.9 shows a very powerful Giulini in the first movements.

Then in the DG times in Los Angeles, plus Berlin, came his most famous Beethoven recordings: No.3, No.5, No.6 and No.9. These recordings show the monumental, granitic and powerful musicality that made Giulini popular in the 80s discography. Above all of them, I loved the No.9 in Berlin, especially for the spectacular first two movements (the dynamics are a bit odd). It was one of the best of the episode. The orchestras are really fine, solid.

I would only show people the wonders of the No.9, but I think they all are worth trying.










Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Helen Donath, Teresa Berganza, Wiesław Ochman, Thomas Stewart
London Symphony Orchestra
Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam
Berliner Philharmoniker
Israel Philharmomic Orchestra
Boston Symphony Orchestra
Orchestre de Paris
Wiener Philharmoniker
Cleveland Orchestra
Chor und Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks
*Rafael Kubelík
Deutsche Grammophon (1976/2015 Reissue Edition)*

The final *winner* of the challenge is the *Rafael Kubelík* cycle with various orchestras for Deutsche Grammophon. I wasn't sold by the conducting in most of the symphonies, and thought that the cycle could be remastered too. Some symphonies are a bit muddy, depending on the orchestra, and usually resonant. Symphonies No.5 and No.6 represent the most serious flop of the cycle, recorded in Boston and Paris, and No.4 in Israel and No.8 in Cleveland are the summits. The No.9 is also one of the best tries in the cycle, quite well-sung. In Boston the sound was extremely rough and had no brilliance, while in Cleveland it was the opposite. Cool thing that the No.7 recorded with the Wiener Philharmoniker had excellent playing and sound but the performance was just ok for me. A fine cycle that doesn't suit completely my needs.

*Direkt till Finale:* Kubelík DG _(on hold)_


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Brilliant overview, with much I am happy to agree on (Sawallisch, alas! And the merits of the odd Tennstedt performance)

I love Rafa Kubelik, but this Beethoven cycle is for me one of his big failures. Sorry. True, we get his usual sense of balance, and absence of histrionics, but even knowing that it is with nine different orchestras, it sounds disjointed. Yes I like the Israel fourth, though. A Bavarian set would have been a better idea, and there are some fine Beethoven's on Audite.

Of these surveyed, I'd put Pletnev at the top. I find little eccentric here, but it's crisp and lively throughout, without resorting to breakneck speed.

This is also the least wonderful of Eugen Jochum's cycles, but it's a long way off bad. I very much hope his other two fare better later on....:tiphat:


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Very glad that you rated Giulini near the top of your review. The spaciousness and depth of feelings he brings to all his recordings is wonderful.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Individual winners of the episode

1: Kubelík
2: Kubelík
3: Giulini LAPO + Kubelík
4: Pletnev + Kubelík
5: Tennstedt!!!!
6: Tennstedt
7: _None in particular_
8: Kubelík
9: Giulini BPO!!!

Thank you for your replies. The 80s Giulini is surely a treat for Beethoven.

It's an odd thing that Philips managed to record a bunch of Mahler, Bruckner and Beethoven sets that sounded identical to each other. I should tell people to dive in orchestral classical music by listening to the 60s RCO discography, instead of Herbert von Karajan like I did. Pleasantly warm.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Couldn't disagree more... 

Some of Sawallisch's cycle is absolutely wonderful, his 8th and 9th are marred by poor sound but the rest sound great. Sawallisch is at his best in the even Symphonies. His 5th and 3rd are lacking in power and intensity, but his second is up there with Ansermet, Beecham and Monteux as one of the best ever in my book. There are so many little details in that cycle that you just plain don't hear in other cycles (like the Tumpets in the menuetto in the 1st symphony) that are so clear in this cycle it has to be heard to be believed. The 4th and 7th are also excellent beyond words and well worth hearing. It's no where near irrelevant.

Kubelik's cycle is utterly fantastic. The 6th is anything but a flop and by far one of the highest moments in the cycle with some of the most perfect balances on record. Every instrument is clear and warm with the Orchestre de Paris sounding fuller than normal. The interplay of the left and right strings over the top of the horns in the scherzo is a work of art! The sound on the 5th is absolutely realistic and not dull. The performance is very old world and not meant to be the most exciting or intense as it is fantastically rich in color and texture. There isn't a weak spot in the entire cycle and is one his greatest triumphs. His amazingly consistent vision of Beethoven's symphonies across 9 different orchestras is just a testament to how superbly accurate he was as a conductor and one of his greatest achievements. His judgment of everything from balance to tempo to phrasing all culminates into a monumental creation I would never wish to be without.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

I agree about Haitink's Concertgebouw 5th. It's a very fine performance & the best from his 1989 Philips cycle, IMO. Of interest, the 9th from that set was used in the film "Copying Beethoven" to good cinematic effect, & I recall the filmmaker saying that they listened to many recordings of the 9th before finally deciding on Haitink's. I know others that prefer Haitink's studio 9th too, however, I like his earlier 1980 live Concertgebouw 9th, which was never released in a box set, as I find the live 3rd & 4th movements to be superior to the studio account (which has a somewhat dull 3rd movement, IMO). It's actually one of my favorite 9ths (though soprano Janet Price wasn't having one of her best days).

https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-...523656370&sr=1-1&keywords=haitink+beethoven+9

I also agree with Robert that Rafael Kubelik's Beethoven on Audite tends to be preferable to his DG cycle. Among his live Audite recordings I consider Kubelik's 2nd to be exceptional (though his Concertgebouw 2nd is very fine too), and the 4th is excellent as well:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009Y26JA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_35?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000099T06/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_34?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

As for Jochum's RCO cycle, I likewise tend to prefer his later LSO cycle for the most part--except for the RCO 8th, which I find more dynamic than his LSO 8th. Jochum's RCO Eroica holds my interest too, though it's far from HIP.

If interested, here's my list of favorite Beethoven Symphony 1-9 recordings--those I wouldn't want to be without, & put roughly in some order of preference for each symphony (I'll write the conductor's full name for those recordings I most treasure), though in some cases I'll find it impossible to choose between them: I expect many of these performances can be heard on You Tube:

#1--Christopher Hogwood, Kurt Masur Leipzig 1 & 2, Bruggen 1, Nelson (also, Zender, Norrington).
#2--Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Eduard van Beinum Philharmonia (1958), Rafael Kubelik Concertgebouw & Bavarian RSO, Kurt Masur Leipzig 2, Nelson, Bruggen 1.
#3--Paul van Kempen, Leonard Bernstein NY Philharmonic, Herman Scherchen Vienna, Chailly Leipzig, Masur 1, Bruggen 1, Savall, Von Matacic Czech PO, Jochum RCO, Reiner CSO, Toscanini.
#4--Paul Kletzki, Kurt Masur Leipzig 1, Rafael Kubelik Bavarian RSO, Felix Weingartner, Casals Marlboro, Jochum LSO, Haitink LSO live & RCO, Klemperer, Walter, Steinberg Pittsburgh, Monteux San Francisco. Christopher Hogwood's is the best period 4th I've heard.
#5--Bernard Haitink RCO, Eugen Jochum LSO, Kurt Masur New York (& Leipzig 1), Wilhelm Furtwangler,, Szell Concertgebouw (Szell should have gotten out of Cleveland more often), Celibidache Munich, Blomstedt Dresden, Mackerras Scotland, Kleiber Sr., Koussevitsky.
#6--Pablo Casals Marlboro, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Bernard Haitink LSO live, Fritz Reiner CSO, Eugen Jochum LSO, Carla Maria Giulini New Philharmonia & LA Phil., Furtwangler,, Klemperer, Kleiber Sr., Bruggen 1.
#7--Jos van Immerseel, Paul van Kampen, Eugen Jochum LSO, John Eliot Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Casals, Norrington, Nelson.
#8--John Nelson, Pablo Casals Marlboro, Igor Markevitch, Eugen Jochum RCO, Jos van Immerseel, & historically--Pfitzner, and Furtwangler.
#9--Ferenc Fricsay Berlin, Bernard Haitink RCO live (1980), Herbert Blomstedt Dresden live, Eugen Jochum LSO, Wilhelm Furtwangler (1951, Bayreuth live, Orfeo--the actual concert performance, not the afternoon dress rehearsal recorded by EMI), Kurt Masur Leipzig live (Berlin Classics), John Eliot Gardiner (the only successful period performance I've heard), Reiner CSO, and Schmidt-Isserstedt (for his fine quartet of singers).


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Interesting summation, Granate. I agree that Kubelik should be near the top of that pile. It's an excellent set but, like RDB, I really rate his Pastoral. The Pletnev cycle would probably be next for me. It is a quirky set with lots of little idiosyncrasies. Some symphonies are played fairly straight with moderate tempos but elsewhere we get speeding up and slowing down (the start of the 6th is frenetic but what follows is much more sedate). Of the other cycles they are all good or slightly better but the big hitters are coming in Table 4. However I'd rate Sawallisch and Tremblay 3rd and 4th in that list. I really like Tremblay's crisp way with the even numbers. He's just a little bite light in the odds. Sawallisch is similarly very good in the even numbers (lovely detail in the Pastoral) but lacks oomph in all the odd numbers (especially the 5th and 9th). As for Tennstedt, that 9th is excellent but much of his other Beethoven just goes into the good+ category for me. The most disappointing of these cycles, for me, is the Giulini one with La Scala (1-8). It took me ages to get but its so insipid and slow. Massive let-down. The DG recordings are better but I'm not sure about Giulini's Beethoven. I'm just finishing off my survey of 20 of the other cycles, Granate. Want me to review the Stangel?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Merl said:


> ... Granate. Want me to review the Stangel?


Well, I'm more interested in others like Abbado and Rattle (WPO) and Hannover La Petite Bande. What do you think of the first Jordan set in Paris with the Blu-Ray sound in the front (joint stereo) instead of a fixed left-right soundscape?

I'm very satisfied with the reviewed HIP sets, so I wouldn't care for anything else.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm gonna review Jordan in my list. Lol. His new VPO recordings are pretty boring, tbh. The French set is much better. I've got both Rattle sets covered.


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## classfolkphile (Jun 25, 2017)

Thank you Granate, for these surveys: they're both informative and enjoyable.

I may have missed what format(s) you're listening to them in. Streaming/downloads? At what sampling rate(s)? CDs?

Of those I've heard in this last thread:

Giulini/La Scala - occasionally interesting, but overall prosaic, with a pulse so slow that I feel like my heart is going to stop listening to it. 

Jochum/Concertgebouw - I like 1 and 2 a lot but the rest are ordinary or even pretty blah. High strings are thin on these recordings.

Vriend/Netherlands SO - Odd dynamics, yes, and sometimes odd phrasing, partially at least because of the limited vibrato. Sound is weighted heavily toward the period brass and tympani (which are wonderful) but leave the strings sounding thin and small scaled (period strings? It's unclear). Narrow but deep soundstage.

Tennstedt/LPO - Unidiomatic and lacking flow: even mannered and choppy at times. I can understand the appeal of the BBC 5th, it is dramatic and interesting but still has some of the above detriments.

Giulini/Los Angeles - I've only heard the 3rd & 5th and found them to be solid but unexceptional performances. Sound also has some of the harshness DG was plagued with for a long time though it's far from the worst the label produced in the '70s-90s.

Kubelik - I've only heard 5, and 7 through 9. I agree with Granate that 5 is dull sounding and 7, while good, isn't particularly noteworthy. 8 & 9 are excellent.

Pletnev/Russian National Orch. - I'm surprised how much I liked this, at least on first listening. Yes, the tempos are pushed and pulled around a bit but it is exciting within a mostly middle of the road interpretation. The orchestra does sometimes sound very Russian: there were moments (last minute of the 8th Symphony for example) when it felt like I was listening to Tchaikovsky. Sound is excellent.

Very looking forward to the Austro-German challenges.


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