# Live Performance > Recordings



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Nothing beats the sound you hear at a performance. Recordings aren't bad and I'm glad we have them, but the pristine sound we get live is unmatchable.

Discuss
:tiphat:


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Nothing beats the sound you hear at a performance. Recordings aren't bad and I'm glad we have them, but the pristine sound we get live is unmatchable.
> 
> Discuss
> :tiphat:


Sore subject. Have box set of Mahler Klaus Tennstedt and LPO. There are some live performances in set. Tried listening to no 7 and CD is damaged. There is another studio performance in set. Had it a while so can't take back


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Judith said:


> Sore subject. Have box set of Mahler Klaus Tennstedt and LPO. There are some live performances in set. Tried listening to no 7 and CD is damaged. There is another studio performance in set. Had it a while so can't take back


I'm sorry to hear that, it's very unfortunate. One day you'll replace it and be happy again though, I'm sure!  Until then, youtube has just about everything.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that, it's very unfortunate. One day you'll replace it and be happy again though, I'm sure!  Until then, youtube has just about everything.


Will see if there is a single copy anywhere! As I said, studio performance was very good!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

All things considered, you're right. In a good hall, with a good orchestra, there's something about the sound that no recording played on any system can match - a sense of space? Not to mention the dynamic headroom from the tiniest whisper to the most crushing fortissimo. Hearing an orchestra like Chicago play the Shostakovich 5th is staggeringly exciting. But...

At home, with audiophile equipment in a room well designed for listening, you can get much of the effect with these benefits:
1) the boyfriend and girlfriend are talking through the concert.
2) the old man isn't hacking and coughing in the quiet passages.
3) the middle aged woman doesn't get up halfway through and on her journey to the restroom disrupts everyone
4) there's no millennial in front of me texting on his phone the whole concert.
5) there's no old lady s-l-o-w-l-y unwrapping a candy from a cellophane wrapper thinking no one else can hear it.
6) I don't have to dress up. 
7) I don't have to drive 20 minutes or more and then pay for parking. 
8) I can get up and refresh my Maker's Mark when I need to.

I've attended concerts all over the country and world, there are some places where audiences are fantastic - they know the music, they're respectful of others, and aren't there for show. Like Detroit, Philadelphia, Boston, London, Vienna. Some halls sound great (Cleveland, Boston, Seattle), some poor (San Francisco, San Diego, Albert Hall) and in the crummy places you'd be better off with a recording because it sounds better!

The other thing is that most of us don't live in a place like London, Berlin, or New York where your need for live concerts can be fulfilled weekly, or even daily. Thank God for recordings and record producers! Not to mention that most orchestras nowadays play the same repertoire over and over and there's really little interesting music, new or old, being done. CDs have filled that need marvelously.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Judith said:


> Will see if there is a single copy anywhere! As I said, studio performance was very good!


If you're anything like me, not having everything I ordered in working condition would drive me mad, even if I had a version of the same piece in working order.

I'm a bit neurotic though!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> All things considered, you're right. In a good hall, with a good orchestra, there's something about the sound that no recording played on any system can match - a sense of space? Not to mention the dynamic headroom from the tiniest whisper to the most crushing fortissimo. Hearing an orchestra like Chicago play the Shostakovich 5th is staggeringly exciting. But...
> 
> At home, with audiophile equipment in a room well designed for listening, you can get much of the effect with these benefits:
> 1) the boyfriend and girlfriend are talking through the concert.
> ...


Good points. I just went to a show and experienced the candy wrapper phenomenon, lol! They weren't serious classical music lovers, but just came b/c they find it to be a relaxing evening out.


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

One of my recent posts, and one of my recent threads might be relevant:

https://www.talkclassical.com/30925-tube-amps-vs-solid-7.html#post1420678

Blu-ray Videos of Classical Concerts


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

RobertKC said:


> One of my recent posts, and one of my recent threads might be relevant:
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/30925-tube-amps-vs-solid-7.html#post1420678
> 
> Blu-ray Videos of Classical Concerts


I have a pair of Grado SR 225e headphones that I use for most of my listening; I plug them into my portable CD player. I also have a really nice soundbar, which I haven't used in a while.

I still get poor sound on high notes, mostly in choral music; it distorts. That's my biggest complaint.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Nothing beats the sound you hear at a performance. Recordings aren't bad and I'm glad we have them, but the pristine sound we get live is unmatchable.
> Discuss


Agree completely - <<_* You can't beat Live Music!!*_>> [a long-time *A*merican *F*ederation of *M*usicians slogan]

Recordings are excellent - but they still do not capture all the sound, and of course, the visual excitement and personal presence of live music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Agree completely - <<_* You can't beat Live Music!!*_>> [a long-time *A*merican *F*ederation of *M*usicians slogan]
> 
> Recordings are excellent - but they still do not capture all the sound, and of course, the visual excitement and personal presence of live music.


Where do you like to sit in the hall? I've been on the ground floor near the back, on the balcony, and front row. Front row was by far my favorite. I felt so connected, and I could hear it so much better. It was nice to be able to pick out a single player and focus on just his/her notes and execution which I don't think you can do far back in the hall.


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I still get poor sound on high notes, mostly in choral music; it distorts. That's my biggest complaint.


IME, operatic sopranos pose the biggest challenge for a hi-fi system in terms of high-frequency dynamics.

A pipe organ can pose the biggest challenge for a hi-fi system in terms of low-frequencies. And, if you want to deliver via your hi-fi system the full impact of a mighty "whack" of the bass drum, that also requires significant bass power. I also find that at live classical performances I'm amazed at the power of multiple double bass playing concurrently; I think many hi-fi systems don't deliver this full experience.

IME, uncompressed modern hi-res recordings (SACD, Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, 24bit/192kHz FLAC) of these types of music place the greatest demand on the dynamic capability of a hi-fi system. (E.g., Mahler symphonies.)

I'll briefly describe my basement 4.2 system as an example of a system that can deliver a near-live-classical-concert-experience. Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW. These four tower speakers plus two subwoofers collectively provide plenty of "acoustical power" in this average size listening room. (I sit approximately 10 feet from the speakers.) Collectively, they total four 1 ¾" titanium compression drivers mated to Tractrix horns, eight 10" woofers, one 15" powered subwoofer, and one 16" powered subwoofer.

When playing hi-res recordings this system can deliver the full dynamic impact of large scale orchestral music - including music featuring operatic soprano, and the pipe organ - at live concert sound level - without distorting.

Many people have the misconception that large Klipsch speakers are only suited for home theater, or that they cannot reproduce the natural timbre of stringed instruments. IME, when mated to the _*right*_ tube amp, these Klipsch speakers can deliver very natural sound. (OTOH, they can sound "bright" when driven by solid-state amps.) I'm a "tube amp nut" - I own 2 dozen electronically restored vintage (late 1950s & early '60s) tube amps, installed across 5 hi-fi systems.

BTW, if you think RF-7II are large speakers - they are svelte compared with Klipschorn. Believe it or not, some hi-fi hobbyists aren't satisfied with these "consumer-grade" loudspeakers, and install in their homes loudspeakers that were designed for commercial use (e.g., movie theaters). (google Klipsch Jubilee, and MWM bass bins.) It's all relative.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

That sounds like a very expensive solution, Rob!

:lol:

Are you familiar with Grado headphones at all? Have any solutions for these?


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That sounds like a very expensive solution, Rob!
> 
> :lol:


It's all relative ...



Captainnumber36 said:


> Are you familiar with Grado headphones at all? Have any solutions for these?


Sorry, I have no experience with headphones. I will say this: garbage-in/garbage-out. Some "historic" recordings IMO sound unbearably harsh. This is particularly true of operatic sopranos. (For example, I think it's unfortunate that Maria Callas didn't live 10 years later - when recording technology had (on average) greatly improved.)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

RobertKC said:


> It's all relative ...
> 
> Sorry, I have no experience with headphones. I will say this: garbage-in/garbage-out. Some "historic" recordings IMO sound unbearably harsh. This is particularly true of operatic sopranos. (For example, I think it's unfortunate that Maria Callas didn't live 10 years later - when recording technology had (on average) greatly improved.)


So in other words, get in the modern recordings, eh!  !


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> So in other words, get in the modern recordings, eh!  !


This is - of course - a personal decision.

I am not a music scholar. I am not qualified to critique performances. I'm not persnickety about one performance vs. another. Either music moves me, or doesn't.

OTOH, I have no tolerance for poor audio quality. I understand - and respect the fact - that many TC members are musicians who care mostly about the performance - and can tolerate poor audio quality. But that's not me.

I'm signing off for a while this evening. One of my tube amps has been "warming up" for the past hour, waiting to play the next Abbado Blu-ray of Mahler … I think I'm up to his Symphony 5 …

I think that this is an interesting discussion!


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

... duplicate post on my part ... apparently there are TC system problems ...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

RobertKC said:


> This is - of course - a personal decision.
> 
> I am not a music scholar. I am not qualified to critique performances. I'm not persnickety about one performance vs. another. Either music moves me, or doesn't.
> 
> ...


I have a few low quality discs where the performance is spectacular. I find myself avoiding those discs when selecting what to listen to though. I like good audio quality too, and there are several great modern performers to choose from imo. But at the same time, I do like having those few oldies to keep me balanced.

Enjoy your evening with Mahler!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I’m fussy over performance details, so I find it hard to find a performance I like Live, nearly as much as my favourite recordings. Sole exceptions were the DSO playing Martinu Symphony 4 under Jarvi. Also Perahia playing Mozart’s PC 17 was a great experience. I could tell he was into it too.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Depends. For some reason sitting in a huge concert hall with a world-class orchestra is less effective in reaching me than hearing a mediocre community orchestra or hearing someone play in a classroom. I also feel like I listen way better when I don't have to sit still, or when there is a movie (to the detriment of focusing on the movie).


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> Depends. For some reason sitting in a huge concert hall with a world-class orchestra is less effective in reaching me than hearing a mediocre community orchestra or hearing someone play in a classroom. I also feel like I listen way better when I don't have to sit still, or when there is a movie (to the detriment of focusing on the movie).


I like sitting up close in a concert hall. That helps me feel more connected to the music! I don't mind having to sit still, I in fact love that about classical performances.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Where do you like to sit in the hall? I've been on the ground floor near the back, on the balcony, and front row. Front row was by far my favorite. I felt so connected, and I could hear it so much better. It was nice to be able to pick out a single player and focus on just his/her notes and execution which I don't think you can do far back in the hall.


I always go for closest balcony, center as far forward as I can get...you can see everything, and you usually get the best sound...hate sitting on the floor - sound goes overhead, you can't see anything....for example:
in Boston - upper balcony - center - first few rows....excellent
Chicago Symphony Center - first/lower balcony - center - first few rows - excellent
Eastman Theater [Rochester] - been awhile!! balcony - center first few rows - haven't been in since it was remodeled some time back...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The sound of a live performance of classical music is usually better - providing the performers are good enough the be recorded and that the hall has adequate acoustics - but, if you don't live near a place where you can get those things, the cost can be prohibitive. But sound quality is not so very important to me. I enjoy many historical recordings, for example. 

For me a big draw of live performances in the days when I lived in a major city was hearing a new take on familiar music or hearing something new to me. These are things that I can get from recordings and this is the reason (excuse? justification?) why I like to have more than one account of most music I like (and tens of accounts of major pieces). I buy CDs as an alternative to going to concerts and enjoy many even though I end up feeling that they are not as good as those I already have.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Years ago there was a brief, small, attempt to recreate the sound of a concert hall: binaural recording. I have three disks made in that manner. With fine headphones, an excellent cd player, and a good tube amp the sound is startlingly lifelike. Utterly amazing in fact. You have a sense of 3-d space that not even Surround Sound Blu Ray disks can offer. Of course, you only hear the bass drum, not feel it as you would with speakers. It's really too bad that when recordings are made that someone didn't set up the binaural dummy and make that recording available as a download or something. Headphones are at their best when the recording was mastered that way.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Years ago there was a brief, small, attempt to recreate the sound of a concert hall: binaural recording. I have three disks made in that manner. With fine headphones, an excellent cd player, and a good tube amp the sound is startlingly lifelike. Utterly amazing in fact. You have a sense of 3-d space that not even Surround Sound Blu Ray disks can offer. Of course, you only hear the bass drum, not feel it as you would with speakers. It's really too bad that when recordings are made that someone didn't set up the binaural dummy and make that recording available as a download or something. Headphones are at their best when the recording was mastered that way.


In 1985, Yamaha released the DSP-1 (Digital Soundfield Processor) that was designed to, from 2 channel information, recreate the sound from several actual and some generic concert halls and send it to 4 channels. The technology was amazing for the time. The DSP-1 booklet described how the unit would provide direct information, reflected information from the back and sides and diminishing reflected sounds based on actual concert halls with various lengths and widths, ceiling heights and wall materials that define their unique sound/ambience.


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## Vahe Sahakian (Mar 9, 2018)

RobertKC said:


> IME, uncompressed modern hi-res recordings (SACD, Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, 24bit/192kHz FLAC) of these types of music place the greatest demand on the dynamic capability of a hi-fi system. (E.g., Mahler symphonies.)
> 
> The only record label that is currently offering SACD's with absolutely no signal compression is BIS, many audiophiles avoid this label simply because it is unmanageable in domestic setting, other hi-rez recordings are minimally compressed, all of them.
> If you like to experience Mahler 5th on BIS try their most recent release BIS-2226, Minnesota Orchestra Osmo Vanska, if your system can handle it you will enjoy it


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

A good live performance is best
A recording of a good live performance comes second
Third is a less than good live performance
Fourth is any good studio performance which is not a patchwork quilt of takes.
Last is the rest.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have a pair of Grado SR 225e headphones that I use for most of my listening; I plug them into my portable CD player...


Maybe you need better equipment.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I like sitting up close in a concert hall. That helps me feel more connected to the music! I don't mind having to sit still, I in fact love that about classical performances.


Might depend on the concert hall:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2004/jul/28/classicalmusicandopera.proms20042


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