# What gives a piece its nationality?



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Just so you know from the beginning, this question is more for people who can read/study music, but dive in anyway if you like!

There are many instances when we can hear a national identity in a piece of music - _i.e._ 'this sounds quintessentially Russian'; or 'this is typical of a Scandinavian composer'.

Usually, people would describe this in metaphorical terms, but I'm wondering if you're aware of any concrete musical factors (or if you know any books where I might find out). For example, is the sense of a shared Russianness in different pieces created by a preference for certain intervals? For certain orchestration? Certain melodic contours? Particular harmonies?

It would be interesting to hear about any countries in this regard. I'm just intrigued about the actual, solid things you might find in a score that lend a piece of music its national feeling.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I know that Russian piano composers love the key of B flat minor! Alright, I'll leave the rest up to the big guns.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Nice question. Sometimes its particular harmonies can tell its quoted from local folk tunes. 

Late French Romantic music is quite recognisable too.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some Czech conductor, I think it was Libor Pesek, said that it sounds absurd how the composers who set up a kind of Czech school largely based it upon Germanic foundations. Eg. both Smetana & Dvorak were influenced by Brahms, Wagner and to a degree Liszt as well. I think they did a kind of fusion, grafting onto the Germanic roots a decidedly Czech identity. Similar thing with many others. Eg. Sibelius' big influence was Tchaikovsky & the Russians, I can hear that clearly in his first two symphonies. Janacek also looked East more than West, not only in terms of music but also in being inspired by their literature and stories (eg. his 'Cossack Rhapsody' _Taras Bulba_). Even down here in Australia, all of our composers are hybrids of our own regions' music & traditions and those of Europe & the USA.

As for technical things, I'm sure there are some or many aspects that define aspects of "national identity," but what I'm saying is often it's built on other identities or traditions, so it's probably not always clear. Eg. the slow movement of Mendelssohn's _Italian Symphony_ apparently has origins in Bohemian (eg. Czech) folk music, not Italian, although the feel or colours he imparts to it are very Italian. So Czechs can take from German music, Germans can take from Czech music, but it's I think _how_ they are doing something, or what is their aim, the context of the work, etc. that is quite important & the nuts and bolts of this is a matter that's above my head in terms of technique (I'm not a musician)...


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

The composer can either incorporate their country's 'sound' into their pieces or they can't.


Take Grieg. I heard and was a big fan of his music many years before I first visited Norway...now, after several returns, I know that the entire time he was magically using his music to paint a picture of his country. 


As far as it being something you can score,...I can't speak from experience but I highly doubt it. You can either represent your bloodline or you can't.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

There are several ways of making your music sound "nationalistic". First of all, the easiest method is to make a direct quote of a folk song that is identified with your country. Copland's use of _Simple Gifts_ in _Appalachian Spring_ or Tchaikovsky's use of the Tsarist national anthem in _Marche Slave_ are examples.

Another method is to use musical forms associated with your country, often in national dances. The rhythm and tempo of the tarantella spells "Southern Italy". The polka spells "Eastern Europe", with the Polonaise more specifically spelling "Poland", Tchaikovsky wrote a polonaise into _Eugene Onegin _ to set the scene there.

Using an instrument associated with an area is an easy method. The balalaika, banjo, and panpipes can be used to add local colour for Russia, the southern U.S., and Peru.

Certain musical patterns - the use of the flattened second in Spanish music or the rhythmic device called the "Scotch snap" are ingrained into our musical consciousnesses. Make a clarinet wail, and it's hard not to think of klezmer music.

The ones that are hardest to explain are the cases where I can't find any apparent format, yet the music is still nationalistic. What exactly makes Elgar's _Enigma Variations_ sound so quintessentially English, and to be more specific, late Imperial English? Is it that English composers since Elgar have been inspired by him to write Elgarian-sounding soundtracks and themes every time there's a new Merchant-Ivory film or BBC serial?

Why does Poulenc sound so French? Berlioz barely does, Faure - no way, Debussy sometimes does, Ravel more often, but Poulenc prends le gateau. Is Poulenc channeling the street songs of 1910 into his music? I know he was making a deliberate attempt to make his music NOT sound German.

And why is there no nationalistic German music? Did it represent the mainstream, so that everybody else's music either sounded nationalistic or German? Brahms wrote a _Triumphlied_ after the Franco-Prussian war, but it doesn't sound much different than other choral pieces by Brahms.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Does the concept of Nationalism come from inside us? Perhaps knowing the composers nationality lets us hear in the music what we think we should be hearing. But possibly I have no idea what I am talking about!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Here are some of my observations concerning qualities essential for pieces bearing national characteristics:

Scandinavian schools: raw harmony, especially in lower string sections (cellos and double basses) which often create rhytmic offset. Massive brass chords laying texture instead of presenting main melodic material creating impression that the musical foreground is laid upon rocky terrain (yyyy, you know). Example: Sibelius Violin Concerto

Russian: apart from the famous tender melancholy: barbaric rhythms with woodwinds whistling in high register (Tchaikovsky's G major suite for orchestra, last movement) and gruff sound of brass section - mainly trombones (first movement of Tchaikovsky's 3rd symphony). 

Polish: qualities typical for most of other Slavics schools served in nobler way, more subtle and refined expression than in case of Russians, diffrent sense of melancholy. Example: Paderewski's Piano Concerto.

I also think that oboe is particularly slavic instrument.

Italian: specific brand of passion expressed in fiery rhythms, emphasis on "cantabile", transparent textures. Example: orchestral introduction from Bellini's Norma.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Such things come from a variety of sources:

Melodic patterns which replicate or simulate those of a country's folk tunes. Folk music from different countries usually employs specific contours, intervals and scales/modes.

Harmonies as above (although most folk music tends to be monophonic).

Speech patterns. Music often imitates linguistic speech patterns (strong/weak accents, melodic/contour, etc). For example many of Grieg's musical phrases start on a strong part of the bar/measure (not many anacruses) because this is the stress pattern of his native Norwegian language.


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

*music and national flavor*



Polednice said:


> Just so you know from the beginning, this question is more for people who can read/study music, but dive in anyway if you like!
> 
> There are many instances when we can hear a national identity in a piece of music - _i.e._ 'this sounds quintessentially Russian'; or 'this is typical of a Scandinavian composer'.
> 
> ...


Used to be that the much of the flavor of a nationality came from certain dance rhythms - or dances themselves, Sarabande = Spanish, Corrente = French, but these became so stylized (read: artificial, or superficial) in the late 17th and 18th centuries that they lost touch with their sources. Also, certain nationalities sometimes used unusual scales - there is an Hungarian Scale for instance, which Wikipedia describes in the key of C and proceeding as follows: C D E♭ F♯ G A♭ B. So, '_like a Harmonic minor scale but with a raised fourth which makes it slightly ambiguous.'_ I think national flavor is always traced back to its indigenous folk music which 'classical' composers then steal/use and suck the vitality right out of 'em.  Except for Bartok and Kodaly and others of their integrity and talent, naturally. Now, I'm really stopping.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

It's good to know about the ideas of melodic contours, orchestration and harmonies, but I don't suppose anyone knows of any books or articles where they are specified?


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

I would try some of the World Music Books which discuss the many, many, musics <sic> the instruments and vocal techniques. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I had a good one and loaned it and it has been gone for years.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

jdavid said:


> I would try some of the World Music Books which discuss the many, many, musics <sic> the instruments and vocal techniques. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I had a good one and loaned it and it has been gone for years.


I tried doing a search of my university's library system for various things ("music nationalism"; "scandinavian music" etc.) without any luck for the particular thing I'm looking for, but I I'll have a go with "world music" or something to that effect and see if I'm more successful. Thanks.


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