# Appreciation of classical music



## ThmsGreenleaf (Oct 20, 2011)

I have a question that probably sounds terribly simple-minded, but well, I'll ask anyway.

I enjoy listening to classical music, but my enjoyment is restricted to the popular pieces that are ubiquitous in movies, etc. and allow for "easy listening". Examples include the Moonlight Sonata, Canon in D, and so on. I would say I'm a sufficiently intelligent person and I know that an appreciation of classical music obviously has to go well beyond these "hits", but when I listen to less popular pieces I don't really know how to enjoy them. 

For the vast majority of classical pieces, I guess I find it hard to identify any consistent "melody" and I cannot even remember or recognize them, even if I force myself to listen to them numerous times. To me the most enjoyable thing about listening to music is the anticipation of pleasant or interesting patterns, but most classical pieces sound almost like a random string of arbitrary musical patterns to me, and they evoke no emotional response in me whatsoever. 

For instance, I enjoy the moonlight sonata, but when I listen to some of Beethoven's lesser known piano sonatas, as much as I try to appreciate them, they sound to me like improvised ramblings on a piano, not like well thought-out works of art. I fail to identify any theme or consistency.

So my question is this: 

Am I
(a) simply missing the point and have the wrong expectations, and classical music (for the most part) simply isn't the kind of thing that you can mentally hum along with like some pop song?
(b) not yet schooled enough to identify the themes or patterns of more complex pieces, so I have to listen to them more often to adapt my brain or something?
or (c) I just don't have the personality to appreciate classical music?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Soldier on. You've just allowed yourself to be programmed. I suggest atonal therapy to snap out of it. Then you can begin anew with tonal of *your* choice. Stay away from television and movies.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Its hard to pinpoint how someone's mind works and discover why they appreciate some music and not other music. Some questions: Are you a musician? How old are you? Since you've made this post, you obviously have some drive to appreciate classical music and that's a start. 

It also might help if you list off the popular classical pieces you enjoy a lot. Do you like the Nutcracker? That's how I started off. I can't explain how or why I gradually came to like music that is much less accessible, but it happened and I can tell you that I genuinely feel and appreciate it.

When I first heard many of the Beethoven sonatas, I was underwhelmed and confused as well. I only enjoyed the finales to certain works, like the Moonlight, or the Appasionata(though I found it to be more like arpeggios rather than enjoyable and well crafted melodies), or else the more famous works as you said. Gradually an enjoyment of melodies can evolve into an enjoyment of themes and development as time wears on.

But don't get the wrong idea about classical music, many of us have the resources to appreciate it as children on the offset(though not always the attention span) but we get wrapped up in the more simple melodies of popular and folk music and have to unlearn our preference.

Edit:
And sometimes, as Vaneyes suggests, you need to expose yourself, with an open mind, to something that is extremely weird for you and see if you can come to appreciate it in some way. When I was on a Beatles obsession a few years back and hadn't revisited classical music in a while, I heard about Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. I was too curious about it, what could have caused people to riot back in 1913? So I kept listening to it over and over and found enjoyment in it more and more. This gave me confidence and hope.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I would say that you should keep exploring the most popular classical works and just give yourself time - there's nothing wrong with what you're doing or how you're listening, it can just take a larger amount of time than you'd expect to become accustomed to complex music.

Citing myself as an example, I started out with the famous pieces, just single movements of larger works, all compiled together on "Chillout" or "Best of..." CDs. From this, I gradually read about the pieces I liked best; read about the composers and styles I enjoyed most, and just gradually worked my way outwards.

Sometimes, things didn't work out. I'd listen to a work I expected to enjoy, but just didn't get it. But, in a lot of cases, I'd listen to it again months later and suddenly some light would be switched on and I'd totally love it. It's a complex process that is difficult to describe, but the most important thing is just to give yourself time.


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## ThmsGreenleaf (Oct 20, 2011)

> Its hard to pinpoint how someone's mind works and discover why they appreciate some music and not other music. Some questions: Are you a musician? How old are you? Since you've made this post, you obviously have some drive to appreciate classical music and that's a start.


I'm not a musician and I'm 24 years old. I don't really have an emotional drive towards classical music (since I can't enjoy it), it's just that I know many people around the world do enjoy it, and I'm the kind of person who thinks that if a considerable number of people can enjoy something, so can I, i.e. that taste is not fixed but can be acquired, for basically anything.

It's just that with music, especially classical music, but also other kinds of music, I find it really hard to see what other people like about it, unless it's the hum-in-the-shower kind of music. I'm also a fairly unemotional person, so that probably makes it harder. Your replies give me some hope though, maybe it's really just about growing some new brain cells by gradually moving from the popular stuff to more complex music.


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## ThmsGreenleaf (Oct 20, 2011)

Another question to those of you who have more experience with classical music:

To me classical pieces are orders of magnitude harder to recognize/remember than pop songs. When I hear a catchy pop song, I have it instantly in my head and can remember the artist etc. When pop/rock songs play on the radio I can often identify them within one or two seconds. For a classical work this requires me to listen to it literally dozens of times, and even then it's hard. I often confuse two classical pieces that have a similar tone, but this never happens to me with pop songs. 

Do you feel different, did this change for you over time, or is it always true because of the instrumental nature of classical music?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

You may need 'shock treatment' but _vaneyes_'s remedy might destroy any hope of ever appreciating music.

Hey, maybe there is a use for the music of Rimsky-Korsakov after all. Listen to his _"Scheherazade"_. There is melody for you to hang onto, and all sorts of orchestral goings-on to titillate the senses, and a _program_. The program sort of makes up for the lack of lyrics.

Hang in there, guy. We'll get you addicted to this stuff.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm fairly new to classical myself (about a year into it), but I love it more than any other type of music. I feel like a part of my life has been missing until now.

I think it depends on _how_ you listen to music. If you do it passively on the radio, or while doing other stuff (reading, browsing the internet, etc), you're likely to miss out on many of its complexities. This is less of an issue for music that relies mainly on catchy melodies (which you 'hum in the shower') since your mind will still grasp them easily. I find that classical requires a lot more concentration to fully appreciate.

Also, it's true that some compositions can sound 'samey', but mainly on a superficial level. I found this to be especially true for Mozart and Vivaldi, amongst others. But once you get a better understanding (or better familiarity) with the pieces, you'll notice it less. I think this happens with experience.

Bear in mind that modern pop is designed to be a few minutes long, and as such it has to deliver the punch instantly and be catchy. What it lacks is the opportunity for proper build-up and development, which I hope you'll learn to appreciate from classical. This is absolutely something that needs to be 'learnt', as it certaintly didn't occur spontaneously with me.

Here's a good example of build-up from Sibelius' 2nd Symphony (and we're already taking a shortcut since we're skipping the early part of the movement, much less the entire symphony itself):




Starts off slowly some parts of the orchestra playing a muted sound (mainly the strings making for a background rhythm), while the winds provide the main melody. At 1:18, the orchestra takes it up a notch. Some of the strings now provide the main melody, while the woodwind section provides the 'bassline'. At 1:53, the intensity ramps up once more. Enter the brass. Finally, climax at 2:47, after this splendid crescendo. Time seems to halt at 2:59, and the orchestra slowly carries onto the very end at 4:32. This is my favorite symphonic finale. Epic, without being bombastic.

Another example of a fantastic build-up, this time from Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. Starting at 3:56 here:




Starts off with the string section, building up a slow crescendo, as the woodwinds are introduced, and finally the brass. By 4:45, the tension is palpable, but reaches a whole other level at 5:15 - then, by 6:00, it has dissipated.

There are also extremely beautiful melodies in classical, don't be mistaken there. Listen to Barber's Violin Concerto:




Listen to that wonderful oboe at the beginning. Such a tone! At 1:11, the string sections shortly repeats the theme, and then the composition goes on a tangent. It isn't until 4:24 that the theme shows up again, this time at the hands of the solo violinist. Truly beautiful. The orchestra revs up in intensity at 5:40, only to be followed by a mesmerizing violin melody at 5:56.

Here's one last example to show classical's potential for great melody:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO8S2Mup2Ic#t=32s[/yt] 
0:32 introduces the voice of the violin, while 1:07 brings in the viola. At 1:43, they begin engaging in a beautiful musical dialogue. Then, at 2:27 (this moment sold me on Mozart, I think), the orchestra brings the dialogue to a close with great warmth; I think my eyes were a bit wet the first time I truly listened to this part.

With these examples, you can't really rush it. If you hasten the build-up or cut off some parts of the first two examples, the payoff just isn't the same. If you had cut off the middle second of the 3rd example, and just followed through from the oboe melody directly into the solo violin melody, again, the payoff wouldn't be the same (delayed gratification). For the last example, remove the build-up from the violin/viola dialogue, and the orchestral pay-off on its own just isn't the same.

Hope this helped a little!


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

I'd like to know firstly what you've listened to and enjoyed, and secondly what you've listened to and haven't enjoyed before I offer any advice.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> For instance, I enjoy the moonlight sonata, but when I listen to some of Beethoven's lesser known piano sonatas, as much as I try to appreciate them, they sound to me like improvised ramblings on a piano, not like well thought-out works of art. I fail to identify any theme or consistency.


It may be that you're listening to his late sonatas which belong to most difficult (to understand) works of pre-modern era.

You shouldn't step down from the "hits" into much less known works. First movement of Mozart's 40th symphony is a "hit", then after you dig it go and get recording of whole four-movement work and listen to it. Try to focus on hearing whole works fragments of which are well-known and easy to enjoy for you. It should work, you will progress in your perception and in time will be able to understand and enjoy more and more music.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

What specific pieces have you listened to and how are you listening to them? Have you bought CDs or are just listening intermittently over the radio, or...?

Maybe Beethoven's piano sonatas are a bit difficult. Try the symphonies, or better, try Chopin's Nocturnes or something like that.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

As far as I am concerned, melody is vital to the best music. And if we are not getting a distict melody, music should still be melodic, perhaps hinting at melody but nothing outrightly hummable.

If I could be so bold as to refer to myself as a "seasoned" classical music fan, even with my experience, music that is not melodic but sounds like rambling, random notes usually does not appeal to me. So, one who seeks melody in music does not have "beginners' taste," as I am hardly a beginner! There is nothing wrong with liking beautiful, melodic music.

Classical music is definitely something that should be "learned" in steps, I think. I think most people would be turned off by one of Beethoven's less hummable piano sonatas if that was their first exposure to that composer's music. One has to "prep" for that, I think. After you have taken in the Moonlight, Appassionata, Pathetique sonatas, for example, you will begin to pick up on textures and quirks of Beethoven's style. Once you have absorbed these, you may hear them appear in some of his other works. You then reach an understanding of what he is doing that you would never have had had you not listened to his other pieces. Understanding leads to appreciation. Appreciation leads to satisfaction. And then from Beethoven you can take on other composers whom you may have never latched onto had you not had your exposure to Beethoven.

So, start with your "light classics" and "best of" recordings. Then pick a few composers from that recording whom you particularly liked and get some recording of their full-length works, be they sonotas or symphonies. And don't rush into it. Take your time to absorb these works. These are not 2-minute pop ditties. These are works or art that require close scruitiny. Give the pieces the attention they deserve and you will, in turn, be rewarded accordingly.

This is why, I think, classical is mostly incomprehensible to so many people. Listening to it is, in reality, a skill that you have to hone and practice. Most people would never dream of taking the time.


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## ThmsGreenleaf (Oct 20, 2011)

Okay.

I enjoy, for example:
- Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven
- Violin Concerto by Tchaikovsky
- Piano Concerto No. 1 by Tchaikovsky
- Gymnopedies by Erik Satie
- Canon in D by Pachelbel
- Symphony No. 40 by Mozart, 1st movement
- Air (Orchestral Suite No. 3) by Bach
- Für Elise by Beethoven
- Xerxes (Ombra mai fu) by Händel
- Water Music by Händel

I don't enjoy:
- Most other randomly selected works by the same artists, e.g.:

- Piano Sonata No. 26 by Beethoven
- Prelude and Fugue No. 5 by Bach
- Manfred Symphony by Tchaikovsky
- Embryons Desseches by Erik Satie

Basically, if I pick a "Top 100 classical works" CD, I usually like most of the tracks, but if I randomly pick any specific CD from the classical section, I almost never enjoy it.

On the other hand, I notice the same thing with pop artists. I usually like the songs in the charts that play on the radio, but when I listen to the album I don't like most of the rest, no matter whether it's pop, rock, rap, or whatever. I'd listen to the "best" song hundreds of times (literally), but ignore the rest.

Maybe I'm just misinformed by thinking that basically all works by these "classical masters" must be equally great, even the less popular ones - maybe some of them simply aren't meant to elicit strong feelings. I don't know.


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## ThmsGreenleaf (Oct 20, 2011)

@Llyranor

Thanks for the long post, very helpful!


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## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm fairly new to this music having only begun listening in 2007. It was Tchaikovskys Serenade for Strings that hooked me to this "classical" music. After months's of listening to the same piece (drove my family mad) I learned of a local classical radio station AND I discovered the youtube library. What I realized was that classical music was but one era of this type of (high art) music and that most of the music that I heard on radio/youtube that I like was older than classical...baroque had more catchy, easier to remember "tunes" which in some cases were/are much shorter in length, more predictable..

Some early classical I can manage but my listening is moving backwards towards renaissance and medival... Also what was important for me was to learn to distinguish between the various era's- renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic (and what ever comes next) so that I wouldn't lump them all together in my disatisfaction with a particular piece. Would have been very easy early on to get completely discouraged with "classical" music and give up listening if I didn't fight the urge to think it all sounded the same.
There is some wonderful music by the lesser known "great composers"~they were lesser known to me until I got to know them.

Carl Friedrich Abel, William Boyce, Henry Purcell, Giovanni Gabrieli...


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

ThmsGreenleaf said:


> . . . To me the most enjoyable thing about listening to music is the anticipation of pleasant or interesting patterns . . .


By patterns, do you mean something that you can easily hum along to and predict the direction it's taking? For instance, something like THIS piece? Or perhaps THIS piece from 1:11 - 1:23?

If that's the case, then the only "problem" here is, as you mentioned, that you're new to classical music. The two pieces that I posted have easily recognizable and predictable patterns in them that, in my opinion, sound very appealling to people that are new to classical music. And that's exactly why they're so popular.
But don't worry. Keep listening and you'll eventually, just like everyone else, get absolutely tired and bored of patterns like these. It will take some time, but you'll see, and you'll definitely start to enjoy the more subtle and structrally complex pieces.

Keep it up!


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## Comistra (Feb 27, 2010)

> Maybe I'm just misinformed by thinking that basically all works by these "classical masters" must be equally great, even the less popular ones - maybe some of them simply aren't meant to elicit strong feelings. I don't know.


There are going to be pieces you don't like. That's almost guaranteed. Things you think are great works others will find banal, and vice versa. Don't feel that you _must_ like something just because, say, Beethoven wrote it.

On the other hand, I highly recommend giving pieces multiple listens, and I mean more than just two or three. There are a number of pieces that are among my favorites that I was, at best, luke warm toward when I first heard them. I still periodically listen to composers/works that I don't particularly care for, because I know that some of them will click for me, and I'll be better off in the long run.

Finally, there are some pretentious snobs who will tell you that you're wrong for disliking certain pieces/composers. Don't listen to them. If you never learn to appreciate Beethoven's Große Fugue (for example), there is nothing wrong with you. Despite what some would have you believe, tastes are allowed to differ.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

your question is honest and valid. the main difference between classical music and the other types of music is that classical music is not happy only with a nice melody, in cm ones seek for the most deepest emotions and intellectuality. as an occasional composer, i can tell you that, sometimes, a nice melody is not the right thing to express what i want to express. and, i think, that's one key point, because it differentiates classical music from the others but, at the same time, makes it more abstract for the listener. but hey, profound feelings, sometimes, require some equally profound choices with respect to harmony, rhythm and melody. and even more: we are supposing that the listener is capable of feel the same profound feelings. this last point has to do with many things: personality, education, socio-economic status, etc.


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## ThmsGreenleaf (Oct 20, 2011)

Hmm, I think it's a good point that what emotions one can experience may be a pretty important factor. As I said I usually have blunted emotions, i.e. only very pleasant or exciting things make me feel anything at all, and I'm usually pretty stressed, but sometimes when I'm deeply relaxed that changes, and I notice that I experience music very differently then, paying more attention to details.

Probably everyone will notice that if they listen to a musical piece during a stressful day at work they have a different response than if they listen to it while lying on a beach. Interesting consideration.


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

I started listening to CM after i heard Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, especially 1048's first movement. 
What i liked the most about it was the build up to the melody (and the melody itself of course) about half way through. 
And it was the only moment that i was looking forward after putting the CD on from the start. But after a few listens i started to enjoy the other concertos as well, and now i find each unique, interesting and beautiful. 
If you seek joy and positive emotions in classical music (and music overall) i think the Brandenburg Concertos can truly be regarded as joyful.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2011)

There's lots of stuff out there you might like - try Berlioz's Harold in Italy, try Paganini's duos for guitar and violin (wow!), try Tchaikovsky's ballet music (talk about greatest hits!). Check out romantic violin sonatas and cello sonatas, too. These can be like a good conversation, compared to orchestral works which are noisy parties. Sample baroque and early music too - some people go nuts for it. Ditto 20th century stuff. You can get a book to help you explore (I wore out David Dubal's Essential Canon of Classical Music). Try a bit of lieder too. And latin or even chinese classical.

I think you should make a point of cultivating personal preferences different from the norm - it pushes you to be more discriminating. But don't take your preferences too seriously - your tastes will change. Heck, you don't even really have tastes yet because you haven't listened to enough stuff yet to know what you like most and least. For example, I found out rather late in the game that, with several major exceptions, I'm really not too keen on orchestral works, but I really, really like romantic chamber music. Just not string quartets though. 

Also, don't try to force yourself to like things. There are pieces I thought I'm supposed to like, and I psyche myself up to like, but in truth I find them almost unlistenable -- e.g. Paganini's 24 Variations, or Bach's Well Tempered Clavier -- or at best okay in small doses. And while I may respect some operas, I just don't have the large blocks of time or attention span for more than one a month.

If you keep listening, your likes and dislikes will gradually reveal themselves to you. Bon voyage!


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

> Maybe I'm just misinformed by thinking that basically all works by these "classical masters" must be equally great, even the less popular ones - maybe some of them simply aren't meant to elicit strong feelings. I don't know.


Well, not only works differ in quality, our tastes differ too. So yes, you're not going to like all works of any particular composer, even once you find your favourite composer, you'll still skip some of his works - unless you're Polednice, and you're not. Talking about Polednice, Brahms was kind of a perfectionist, he either does it well, or destroys the work, so try any of his symphonies (I prefer Solti conducting), and give them time. Listen a certain movement a few times before going to the next. Enable something like "stop after current track", so that the player does not skip to the next track immidiately. Let the piece you just listened to "sink in".

Watch this presentation. Get some Chopin disc, his sonatas or nocturnes, or even "best of Chopin" disc - it's still better than "best of classical". Given the list of works you've listened to, I'd say that you've already heard some of the works considered to be among the best, but remember that not all works are like that - there's a reason why there's such a thing as "standard repertoire". There are many more great works, but the only real problem you might have is the exact path to them. Works that might make your job easier are those with simpler structure, Dvorak's Symphony No9 (from the new world) comes to mind (and has great melodies too).


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## hespdelk (Mar 19, 2011)

It is almost a cliche recommendation to new listeners, but for good reason - try Vivaldi's Four Seasons concertos if you haven't already.

Here is the first of the four, "Spring" performed by Il giardino armonico:






The other three are also on youtube should you feel inclined.

Different pieces function on different levels and have different goals. The shorter strongly melodic pieces that could fall into the "hits" category are masterpieces of one type, longer more enigmatic works are of another. All have an emotional impact, the complex ones oftentimes a greater one once you come to terms with it.

No one likes all music, but pretty much everyone's likings expand and develop over time as they come to know more music. You start to hear things differently.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

You might try Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier; it's two sets of twenty four Preludes and Fugues. They generally have pretty recognizable themes, especially the Fugues.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Lot of good points made in this thread. The ones that I want to concur with most emphatically are the ones saying that all you need is more time. 

Some more music that is very easy to like, IMO (take your time though - lord knows I went too fast buying a bunch of stuff and it was nothing but a waste of money):

- Chopin's Nocturnes 
- Brahms' Hungarian Dances, Violin Sonata #1, Piano Quintet, Piano Trio #1, and Symphony #1
- Bruch's Violin Concerto #2 
- Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto #2 
- the highlights of Verdi's operas
- Bach's Cantata #82
- Stravinsky's Rite of Spring 
- Orff's Carmina Burana (even the not-famous parts) 
- Holst's Planets
- Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty
- Copland's Appalachian Spring
- Bach's Concerto BWV 1060 with an oboe
- about anything by Debussy, but especially Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
- Janacek's string quartets
- Szymanowski's Stabat Mater (will blow your mind, but it might take some getting used to)
- Dvorak's Slavonic Dances
- Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies 

Well, that is going on too long... just keep picking stuff. It'll all grow on you. I agree with the people who mentioned Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, and Mozart's 40th. If you really want to push through Beethoven's sonatas, try #32, it'll have some surprises for you. You might try stuff by Philip Glass, Steve Reich, John Adams, or Arvo Part as well.

Just keep playing! It's all for fun, really.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

It might be b) and may apply to other media.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

My advice would be not to listen to too many dfferent pieces in a short space of time. Focus on a couple of works and only move on to the next thing(s) after you feel that you're 'getting them' or after you feel that you've gotten everything out of them that is possible for you.

Some basic knowledge about the different periods and genres of classical music and things like sonata form and stuff like that are not a must, but they could help to make you better understand what's going on when you're listening. No need to panic - EVERYONE, musician or no musician learns about those things as he goes along, and so will you. Just like you've learned to tell the difference between pop, rock, reggae, country and so on. Just like you learned to recognize the difference between the pop/rock of, say, the 50's and the 80's.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

jhar26 said:


> Some basic knowledge about...things like sonata form and stuff like that are not a must, but they could help to make you better understand what's going on when you're listening.


I agree with this. As hesitant as I am to recommend music theory to a beginner, and understanding of structure is what allowed me to move on from small piano works and the like to much longer and substantial music. Before that I found it too easy to get lost in the music; it is a great deal easier to enjoy when you have a sense of place in it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

jalex said:


> I agree with this. As hesitant as I am to recommend music theory to a beginner, and understanding of structure is what allowed me to move on from small piano works and the like to much longer and substantial music. Before that I found it too easy to get lost in the music; it is a great deal easier to enjoy when you have a sense of place in it.


Thanks much, _jalex_. You have expanded my comprehension of the psychological spread amongst us. One of my Desirable Results when hearing a symphonic (or concertante) work is that I will 'get lost in the music'. Knowing the mechanics of it is contraindicated.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Whatever else you listen to be sure to hear one piece every day for a week at a time when you can give it your full attention and you will find certain of the themes will stick in your mind. Familiarity will ease your path.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

It's important to have some understanding of what you're listening to. If you're finding it difficult to appreciate a piece like a Beethoven piano sonata, read a bit about it. Try to get a sense of why it's seen as important. Put it in a historical context. There's no shame in using Wikipedia - at least as a starting point.

You might be able to enjoy Pachelbel's Canon or the _1812 _Overture in an a completely decontextualized way, but that's just not going to work for most classical music.


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