# A singing voice "lacking core"



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

What does it mean, if a singing voice is "lacking core" ? At least twice it has been mentioned on this site by @opus123 , maybe others write about it, but I don't remember. I already know, this quality is not very important for me, because the criticised singing is sometimes pleasant, sometimes at least OK to my ear. Still, I would like to know what are we talking about.

Are there any prominent contrasting examples of lacking core or not, that an amateur listener is likely to notice ?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

May I submit in evidence the voice of Klaus Florian Vogt!🤨


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Barbebleu said:


> May I submit in evidence the voice of Klaus Florian Vogt!🤨


Sure, as long as you explain what to look for, ideally the exact subsection, and how it differs from the other way of singing.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I join to the question. My natural science oriented and musically uneducated brains need explanation.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Edit: I deleted and will move my question abou the "missing tip" into a new thread, because it is clearly a different thing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Try listening to Vogt singing anything by Wagner and compare him to someone like Melchior. Vogt sounds light and airy lacking heft. He sounds like he is using head voice all the time. Melchior is firmer and more chest voice focused giving his voice more body and a roundness to his tone.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Barbebleu said:


> Try listening to Vogt singing anything by Wagner and compare him to someone like Melchior. Vogt sounds light and airy lacking heft. He sounds like he is using head voice all the time. Melchior is firmer and more chest voice focused giving his voice more body and a roundness to his tone.


Would you also choose and link the examples for me, cause I am lazy ?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Linking not my strongpoint but I’ll try.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Vogt first singing Wagner's In Fernem Land from Lohengrin then Melchior singing the same.

Wagner - LOHENGRIN - In fernem Land - YouTube 

Lauritz Melchior "In fernem Land" Lohengrin - YouTube


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> *Would you also choose and link the examples for me, cause I am lazy ?*





Barbebleu said:


> Linking not my strongpoint but *I’ll try.*


"I'll try"... The British... sigh... The Irish are so much better at this - "Do your own fecking homework, ya lazy ba$tard"

See? - That's how it's done...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> "I'll try"... The British... sigh... The Irish are so much better at this - "Do your own fecking homework, ya lazy ba$tard"
> 
> See? - That's how it's done...


The Scots, please.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I believe he did it for the benefit of the broader audience. Many eyes are fixed on our conversations, they are even reproduced by a certain famous website about culture.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The singing of Melchior is certainly much more beautiful. But I didn't know that the other way is a mistake. Do not some characters or operas require the voice like Vogt ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Is this the same problem as Vogt has ?


Spoiler: Gedda 1










I have always disliked it, it is on my tape, but it is the famous Nicolai Gedda, so I thought it is my perception only.

But here, the same Nicolai Gedda sounds differently:


Spoiler: Gedda 2


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> The singing of Melchior is certainly much more beautiful. But I didn't know that the other way is a mistake. Do not some characters or operas require the voice like Vogt ?


Vogt’s way is not a mistake but it is not to my, and many others, taste. He sings well enough but in much of the Wagner he essays, he is overparted. He would be more suited to anything other than heldentenor parts for which he lacks the necessary heft. IMHO of course!😀


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Is this the same problem as Vogt has ?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Gedda 1
> ...


Different repertoire, different vocal requirements but you can hear a strength in Gedda that, to my ears, Vogt lacks.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

This response is not 


BBSVK said:


> What does it mean, if a singing voice is "lacking core" ? At least twice it has been mentioned on this site by @opus123 , maybe others write about it, but I don't remember. I already know, this quality is not very important for me, because the criticised singing is sometimes pleasant, sometimes at least OK to my ear. Still, I would like to know what are we talking about.
> 
> Are there any prominent contrasting examples of lacking core or not, that an amateur listener is likely to notice ?


My response is not polished and perhaps subjective, but I think it is a solidity in the tone. The tone comes before the vibrato. There is a difference between a natural quick vibrato which emanates from the tone rather than the tone being carried by the vibrato. Compare singers like Angela Meade and Susanna Phillips to Caterina Mancini and Sena Jurinac.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Core has been discussed plenty here, maybe just under different names such as squillo. If you listen to music with an equaliser then put on a track by Tebaldi, Callas, Del Monaco etc. and have a fiddle with the frequencies between 2-4khz. You will notice the squillo immediately, it's that ringing edge which will be amplified if you make those frequencies more prominent. If you then put on a track by, say, Angela Gheorghiu, you will notice that by changing those same frequencies the timbre of the voice changes far less. Squillo is one sign of a correctly produced voice, as these resonant frequencies require an opened throat. Therefore, singers who have proper core are not constricted. Some modern singers often try to replicate true squillo with nasal resonance and other means, this is not correct and will sound unpleasant. Squillo is less effective on record, especially on poor quality live performances where it can be harsh and overbearing and thus amplify flaws in the singing. But live it creates colour and a ring to a voice which projects it throughout an auditorium with a far more immediate quality than voices without squillo.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Core has been discussed plenty here, maybe just under different names such as squillo. If you listen to music with an equaliser then put on a track by Tebaldi, Callas, Del Monaco etc. and have a fiddle with the frequencies between 2-4khz. You will notice the squillo immediately, it's that ringing edge which will be amplified if you make those frequencies more prominent. If you then put on a track by, say, Angela Gheorghiu, you will notice that by changing those same frequencies the timbre of the voice changes far less. Squillo is one sign of a correctly produced voice, as these resonant frequencies require an opened throat. Therefore, singers who have proper core are not constricted. Some modern singers often try to replicate true squillo with nasal resonance and other means, this is not correct and will sound unpleasant. Squillo is less effective on record, especially on poor quality live performances where it can be harsh and overbearing and thus amplify flaws in the singing. But live it creates colour and a ring to a voice and projects it throughout an auditorium with a far more immediate quality than voices without squillo.


Down South we would say "Preach" but here on an international opera forum I will just say "Teach" Well explained.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

"Core" is a tricky concept to explain. The closest I can get is 
1) a combination of well developed head voice and chest voice
2) openness resulting from a lack of strain or unwanted tension in related musculature 

The aforementioned concept of "squillo" is more a _result_ of strong core rather than a synonym therefor; however, many well-produced voices don't have quite as much of it. As such, squillo is a sign of core and good technique, but not a sufficient means of diagnosis. In general, bigger voices will have more and lighter voices will have less. 

For example, this is an example of some very good singing without much squillo. 






vs an example of equally good singing with more squillo


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Still, you will usually get some squillo even in lighter voices when singing more dramatic moments. For example, the best lyric sopranos from before WWII often sounded like this:


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> "Core" is a tricky concept to explain. The closest I can get is
> 1) a combination of well developed head voice and chest voice
> 2) openness resulting from a lack of strain or unwanted tension in related musculature
> 
> ...







I would say this is a better example of proper squillo. Cossotto sounds somewhat nasal to me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Still, you will usually get some squillo even in lighter voices when singing more dramatic moments. For example, the best lyric sopranos from before WWII often sounded like this:


You think Petrella is a "lyric soprano"? A fierce, wild, "versimo lyric," maybe, whatever that may be. What other "best lyric sopranos" sounded like that? I'd hate to meet her "lyric" Desdemona in a dark alley.

If ever a voice revealed the futility of assigning people to fachs...


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Did anyone of you guys check my links to Nicolai Gedda singing ? Both examples are the same aria, the Romance of Nadir from The Pearlfishers by Bizet. But they sound quite differently. Is it the matter of recording ? Or live vs studio ? I don't know if any of them was done in studio. The first one sounds very "unsexy" to me.



BBSVK said:


> Is this the same problem as Vogt has ?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Gedda 1
> ...


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You think Petrella is a "lyric soprano"? A fierce, wild, "versimo lyric," maybe, whatever that may be. What other "best lyric sopranos" sounded like that? I'd hate to meet her "lyric" Desdemona in a dark alley. If ever a voice revealed the futility of assigning people to fachs...


You're criticizing a point for being over-complicated, but your response is itself over-complicating things. The point is quite straightforward
1) Voices exist on a spectrum from bigger/more dramatic to lighter.
2) The former tend to have more squillo, but it's not a hard and fast rule
3) Singers without quite as big/dramatic of a voice can sometimes still sing with a lot of squillo 

What we call them isn't important. It's just easier to say "lyric soprano" for a voice with less vocal weight, and "dramatic soprano" for one with more weight. I'm not particularly concerned with our disagreements on what a certain voice should be classified as, but let's not do away entirely with useful heuristics that allow for some brevity.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> You're criticizing a point for being over-complicated, but your response is itself over-complicating things. The point is quite straightforward
> 1) Voices exist on a spectrum from bigger/more dramatic to lighter.
> 2) The former tend to have more squillo, but it's not a hard and fast rule
> 3) Singers without quite as big/dramatic of a voice can sometimes still sing with a lot of squillo
> ...


Well, you did say "lighter" and not "light." I'll grant you, she's lighter than Mme. Watszernameszewskii, whose Turandot once gave a man in the front row a concussion.

Sure, the underlying point is straightforward, and well-taken. Sorry to distract.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Vogt first singing Wagner's In Fernem Land from Lohengrin then Melchior singing the same.
> 
> Wagner - LOHENGRIN - In fernem Land - YouTube
> 
> Lauritz Melchior "In fernem Land" Lohengrin - YouTube


I'm certainly not much of a fan of Vogt but comparing the poor guy to Melchior............................


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Should I offer a bounty on this question ?

OK, I will send a peaceful photo of my weekend cottage covered by snow to anybody, who answers it ! 



BBSVK said:


> Is this the same problem as Vogt has ?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Gedda 1
> ...


What is the difference between these two recordings of the same aria with the same voice, and why does the first one sound unsexy, at least to me ?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Oh, just stop it, you lot!

Not only have I revised somewhat my opinion about fach and find that I agree with BOTH Woodduck AND Balalaika Boy in this thread, but I've discovered I do like Clara Petrella after all!

N.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Nobody interested in my bounty ? Would you prefer the drawing from my daughter ?


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Should I offer a bounty on this question ?
> 
> OK, I will send a peaceful photo of my weekend cottage covered by snow to anybody, who answers it !
> 
> ...


He sounds a lot older in the second recording. I'm not much a fan of Gedda but the first is certainly preferable to the second where the aging voice has a fairly pronounced vibrato. Maybe you prefer wider vibrato or maybe the less closely miked sound is what you like?


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Is it possible to have a large voice and still lack core? Rita Gorr and Sondra Radvanovsky sound like that to me. Their voices are large, but I don't feel the "core", as you do with Callas, Nilsson, Tebaldi, Sutherland, etc.,


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Is it possible to have a large voice and still lack core? Rita Gorr and Sondra Radvanovsky sound like that to me. Their voices are large, but I don't feel the "core", as you do with Callas, Nilsson, Tebaldi, Sutherland, etc.,


Sondra Radvanovsky has a naturally big voice, but she uses a modern technique of more nasal, "in the mask" singing that causes constriction and takes away that quality of core.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Sondra Radvanovsky has a naturally big voice, but she uses a modern technique of more nasal, "in the mask" singing that causes constriction and takes away that quality of core.


So what about my most beloved one, Marina Rebeka ? She is my prefered contemporary Norma, while other people write, how Radvanovsky is the best. To me, Radvanovsky is too high pitched. Rebeka feels just right, the dark colour is there when I expect it. Will you now tell me it is fake darkening, or something ?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> The English equivalent for "lacking the tip" would be "circumcised"...


, and "lacking core", "castrated"


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

BBSVK said:


> Should I offer a bounty on this question ?
> 
> OK, I will send a peaceful photo of my weekend cottage covered by snow to anybody, who answers it !
> 
> What is the difference between these two recordings of the same aria with the same voice, and why does the first one sound unsexy, at least to me ?


As I hear it, in the first recording Gedda is essentially relying on a rather kittenish head voice that doesn't use much core. Head voice, again, as I understand it, is the coordination of the chest voice and falsetto. That means that head voice, both "male" and "female" should have core, because it is the chest voice that gives the quality we are calling core to a voice. So here's a singer singing the piece almost entirely in a soft head voice, but with core throughout:
I pescatori di perle: "Mi par d'udire ancora" - YouTube 

Tagliavini never sounds like his voice is going to turn into a whisper, as Gedda sometimes does in the first clip. Tagliavini has a clear and full tone throughout. 

The second Gedda clip sounds like he is using more chest voice, though still not much, although that makes sense for this aria. I believe it is live. In his autobiography Gedda said that he intentionally toned down (so to speak) his singing during studio recording sessions because he thought the style in which he sang in the theater was "too much" in front of a microphone. You can hear in this live clip from the Met that he sings much with more core and in a more extroverted style than he usually did in the studio:
Nicolai Gedda live in La sonnambula "Tutto e sciolto...Ma perche non posso odiarti" - YouTube 

The voice still sometimes has an unattractive hardness to it, but it sounds like it would really fill (and thrill, as it obviously does) the Met.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> So what about my most beloved one, Marina Rebeka ? She is my prefered contemporary Norma, while other people write, how Radvanovsky is the best. To me, Radvanovsky is too high pitched. Rebeka feels just right, the dark colour is there when I expect it. Will you now tell me it is fake darkening, or something ?


It sounds that way to me, at least in in the clip of her Norma I heard, though she's by no means the worst example of artificial darkening. She also lacks core and has q somewhat nasal 'in the mask' quality from what I've heard. Also singing Norma without a chest voice doesn't seem right. But that's all the standard nowadays and she's far more listenable than some others.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> Did anyone of you guys check my links to Nicolai Gedda singing ? Both examples are the same aria, the Romance of Nadir from The Pearlfishers by Bizet. But they sound quite differently. Is it the matter of recording ? Or live vs studio ? I don't know if any of them was done in studio. The first one sounds very "unsexy" to me.


Tonight is the evening of French opera. 😁
I don't think, dear BBSVK, that I'm a person who is worthy to address with this question. But I have some ideas about it. First example is sung softer and lighter, second one is denser and a little darker. It's all different conditions: age, studio or theater, health, magnetic storm. Another question is your perception. Art usually meets something in you or doesn't, the rest exists only in heads of critics (Lawrence Durrell wrote about it better, but I can't find the exact quote in English). So, the unsuccessful snippet not only might not meet a response or even initiate a chain of unpleasant associations. Like some sharps sounds unconsciously resemble us about monkey quarrels.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

ColdGenius said:


> I join to the question. My natural science oriented and musically uneducated brains need explanation.


I guess resonant frequencies, fundamental frequencies, harmonic frequencies and relative sensitivity of the human ear to certain frequencies.
I don't know the lexicon of opera so not sure how this is explained in musical terms..


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> If you listen to music with an equaliser then put on a track by Tebaldi, Callas, Del Monaco etc. and have a fiddle with the frequencies between 2-4khz. You will notice the squillo immediately, it's that ringing edge which will be amplified if you make those frequencies more prominent. If you then put on a track by, say, Angela Gheorghiu, you will notice that by changing those same frequencies the timbre of the voice changes far less.


I finally started this scientific experiment.
I used Maria Callas singing Norma in Argentina


Spoiler: This one










 , which you recommended elsewhere, at 15:34 "Oh, cari accenti !" but it is not very obvious, I am not sure if I really hear the difference, or if it is my imagination.
My equalitzer looks like this.







Should it be between 2-4 khz, or should lowering each of the bars for 2 and 4 khz also do the trick ? Otherwise, lowering 4khz to a minimum eliminates the backround noise :-D


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I finally started this scientific experiment.
> I used Maria Callas singing Norma in Argentina
> 
> 
> ...


If you listen to the segment with 2khz and 4khz set to max and then again set to minimum you should hear a clear difference and easily be able to tell where the squillo is. How your equaliser should be set normally depends on your equipment.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

"Core" isn't traditionally the term of choice to describe this, but Jeremy Silver and his acolytes quite like to use it. It refers to chest-voice participation (TA-vocalis contraction) in the sound alongside a narrowing of the epiglottic funnel. It is noticeably present in older singers and noticeably absent in modern singers.

It lends clarity, brilliance, and intelligibility to a voice/vowel. When it is paired with a relaxed jaw and neck and lots of head-voice function, the voice gives the impression of firm and authoritative darkness. Heavier singers (more dramatic) should have more "core" in any given note than lighter singers (more lyrical) by the nature of their anatomy.

Squillo and the singer's formant is really another beast: for example, Sundberg et al (the inventors of the term "singer's formant") don't consider sopranos to have it. I personally do not find the singer's formant a helpful concept for various reasons, among which is the permanently coupled false notion that it is the prime reason singers are audible over orchestras. Squillo is a necessary part of high male singing, but every tone should always be relaxed and firm enough to ring, and I think that focusing on producing a particular formant phenomenon is unhelpful and contrary to how older singers trained.


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

The difference between voice with core and voice without core is similar to the difference between single malt whiskey and blended whiskey. The former requires more effort to develop and is not appreciated by everyone. Yet in the end, one is the real thing and the other is merely a cheap imitation.


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