# Davis vs Karajan in Mozart



## Guest (Oct 31, 2016)

For those of you who have heard both sets, which one has the best sound? (I have the Karajan, but there's always something better!) Alternatively, is there another more recent set that is better recorded and played that is not HIP? I want big orchestras!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I haven't heard either, but I always liked the Karajan set of late symphnies that he (unusually) recorded for EMI ca. 1970-72.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Ive got a few of the Karajan but not listened to them in years. Get back to you on this. I love Szell and Mackerras in Mozart, personally.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Szell didn't record all the Mozart symphonies, but his approach is a HIP attempt with modern orchestras like the Cleveland. Very crisp and delightful!!

I don't believe Mozart would recognize his music as performed by either Karajan or Davis; the former, much too smooth and the latter, Haydn the big line.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Karajan did great in Mozart's operas, but controversial in his symphonies. Davis's reading is generally good, but some kind of lacking details (special treatment on phrasing, textures and timbres).
If you like old-school Austro-German performance, the first thing I would recommend is the complete cycle by Karl Boehm. But the sound quality is a little bit inferior to the two sets you mentioned.
Marriner's complete set is also a good choice for modern practice. The sould quality is excellent and the interpretation features lighter textures, faster tempo and more emphasis on violins and woodwinds.
Mackerras's set is a hybrid of modern and HIP attempts, it may not be a good choice for you.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Karajan wins hands down, as stated before.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2016)

I had some of the Mackerras Telarc discs...they were OK but the sound was quite variable. I think I'll go for Davis.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Karajan is not controversial in Mozart. His recordings were mainstream for their time and still hold up really well. 35 - 39 are fabulous while the competition is stronger in 40 and 41. This is about the DG set.

Bohm is also excellent but the recordings are older.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

AndorFoldes said:


> Karajan is not controversial in Mozart. His recordings were mainstream for their time and still hold up really well. 35 - 39 are fabulous while the competition is stronger in 40 and 41. This is about the DG set.
> 
> *Bohm is also excellent but the recordings are older.*


Bohm is pretty good with the "great" symphonies - but I feel some of the earlier works - he drags a bit.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Karajan believed that Mozart wanted (and wrote for) a larger orchestra than is given credit for today. I have both sets of his Mozart symphonies and to my mind the EMI is more engaged than the DG. Superb performances of their type. Of course, it's not the only way but it is one very good way!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"Big bands" reduce to chamber size for Mozart. In performance and sound, 1970's BPO/HvK is better than 1980's Dresden/Davis. The latter's reverb is particularly annoying. 
Another I can recommend is 1980's ASMF/Marriner (EMI). Exhilarating performances, better sound. :tiphat:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Karajan believed that Mozart wanted (and wrote for) a larger orchestra than is given credit for today. I have both sets of his Mozart symphonies and to my mind the EMI is more engaged than the DG. Superb performances of their type. Of course, it's not the only way but it is one very good way!


True, Mozart (and Mahler) had dreams of bigger bands. Mozart's orchestras were much smaller than today's, and he scored for such. Exception, 43 parts for "Jupiter", a massive jump. For the "Paris" premiere he was afforded a larger band, and increased the parts to 40.

Mozart was particularly fond of the biggest band of that time, the Mannheim. It numbered around 55 players. By modern standards, after WWII chamber orchestras regularly numbered better than 40.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

If you want big band Mozart then go for Karajan
Must agree with Vaneyes though that Marriner with the ASMF is a great set


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2016)

Kontrapunctus said:


> I want big orchestras!


Don't all orchestras play Mozart with the right number of instruments?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> Don't all orchestras play Mozart with the right number of instruments?


Did Mozart actually specify the 'right number' of instruments for each part for each of his symphonies?

The size of the orchestra is one consideration. The strings used (gut vs metal), the bows used, the bowing technique, the type of wind instruments used (valved vs not valved, wood vs metal etc etc), the type of tymapni and sticks used, performance practice etc etc etc ..... these can all make a difference between 'big' performances and 'HIP' performances

There is still debate about which performance practice is preferable .... and largely it comes down to personal preference


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> *Did Mozart actually specify the 'right number' of instruments for each part for each of his symphonies?*
> 
> The size of the orchestra is one consideration. The strings used (gut vs metal), the bows used, the bowing technique, the type of wind instruments used (valved vs not valved, wood vs metal etc etc), the type of tymapni and sticks used, performance practice etc etc etc ..... these can all make a difference between 'big' performances and 'HIP' performances
> 
> There is still debate about which performance practice is preferable .... and largely it comes down to personal preference


In a letter Mozart wrote to his father in April 1781, He said, "I forgot to tell you the other day that at the concert the Symphony [possibly The Paris] went to magnificently and had the greatest success. There were 40 violins, the wind instruments were all doubled, there were 10 violins, ten double basses, eight cellos and six bassoons."


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> In a letter Mozart wrote to his father in April 1781, He said, "I forgot to tell you the other day that at the concert the Symphony [possibly The Paris] went to magnificently and had the greatest success. There were 40 violins, the wind instruments were all doubled, there were 10 violins, ten double basses, eight cellos and six bassoons."


The Paris is quite a showy symphony - I expect Mozart took the size of the paris forces into consideration when composing - but that doesnt mean he would have always thought bigger is better.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

stomanek said:


> The Paris is quite a showy symphony - I expect Mozart took the size of the paris forces into consideration when composing - but that doesnt mean he would have always thought bigger is better.


I think the point is he didn't object to bigger. In fact he used the bigger orchestra when one was available. That doesn't mean big is better but that Mozart was not stymied by authenticity. I have Karajan, Marriner, Pinnock and Beecham in these symphonies and enjoy hearing all of them. There is no 'right' way of doing them.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Headphone Hermit said:


> *Did Mozart actually specify the 'right number' of instruments for each part for each of his symphonies?*
> 
> The size of the orchestra is one consideration. The strings used (gut vs metal), the bows used, the bowing technique, the type of wind instruments used (valved vs not valved, wood vs metal etc etc), the type of tymapni and sticks used, performance practice etc etc etc ..... these can all make a difference between 'big' performances and 'HIP' performances
> 
> There is still debate about which performance practice is preferable .... and largely it comes down to personal preference


Likely for winds, horns, timpani, and the remainder noted as "strings". Symphony 41, for example -- flute, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 2 horns (C/F), 2 trumpets (C), timpani, strings.

See ref. to WAM Symphonies. Click on "Symphonies (show)", and under General Information, "Instrumentation orchestra (more)".

http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_Orchestra_Pieces_with_Parts_Available/Symphonies

Interesting to note re Symphonies 25 - 41, parts range from 19 to 43. I think it's fair to say back then, that orchestras were more often undermanned. Pardon that usage, ladies. :tiphat:


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Vaneyes said:


> Symphony 41, for example -- flute, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 2 horns (C/F), 2 trumpets (C), timpani, strings.


Thank you. That is what I thought was the case.

Thus, to go back to the earlier point, it isn't possible to say that conductor 'X' used the 'wrong' number of string players in a Mozart symphony recording. We might say that the size of the orchestra is anachronistic for the forces usually available in a particular situation, but that is different from saying the size of orchestra is different than that intended by Mozart (for most of his symphonies, at least)


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Thank you. That is what I thought was the case.
> 
> Thus, to go back to the earlier point, it isn't possible to say that conductor 'X' used the 'wrong' number of string players in a Mozart symphony recording. We might say that the size of the orchestra is anachronistic for the forces usually available in a particular situation, but that is different from saying the size of orchestra is different than that intended by Mozart (for most of his symphonies, at least)


Thank *you*. Yes, a reasonable range of instruments can work. From the ref. I linked, the parts for Symphonies 25 - 41.

#25 - 39 parts, #26 - 43 parts, #27 - 31 parts, #28 - 34 parts , #29 - 20 parts , #30 - 34 parts, #31 - 30 parts, #32 - 27 parts, #33 - 19 parts, #34 - 23 parts, #35 - 26 parts, #36 - 40 parts, #38 - 25 parts, #39 - 26 parts, #40 - 26 parts, #41 - 43 parts.

As seen, Mozart's biggest orchestrations involve Symphonies 25, 26, 36, 41, with 39 to 43 parts. For those, a band probably wouldn't get into too much trouble using 50-something players. :tiphat:


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