# Wagner and Nazis (Oh no, not again!!!)



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

In light of the recent Dusseldorf debacle, an item that directly addresses one of the central issues of the continuing Wagner debate...

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20130509-is-wagners-nazi-stigma-fair

Read it (if you dare).


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

For now I will dare *you*: what is *your own* opinion about Wagner? You have posted a few things here concerning the _Meister_, written by other people, and I remember you saying back in February you were all set and ready for a meeting with him and his art. Have you made any progress since then?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

"Oh no not again", indeed.

RW died in 1883. The Nazi party was founded in 1920. The connection between the two may be of interest to history buffs or psychology majors, but it need not concern music fans.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

There is already enough to hate about Wagner's music without having to bother about his politics as well...


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

brianvds said:


> There is already enough to hate about Wagner's music without having to bother about his politics as well...


That's the spirit! :tiphat:

In that case, I would have to hate Russian music, because of the horrible things they did/tried to do to both sides of my family who lived in Finland during WWII, and before then even. Which is impossible for me to do!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

ahammel said:


> "Oh no not again", indeed.
> 
> RW died in 1883. The Nazi party was founded in 1920. The connection between the two may be of interest to history buffs or psychology majors, but it need not concern music fans.


Yes, I wonder are there sports forums where people discuss the "continuing debate" over the connection between physical education and the Nazis?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Wagner was certainly an outspoken anti-Semite, but so were a lot of people in those days -- even though they may have counted individual Jews among their friends and supporters. Beethoven was a casual anti-Semite, for instance, and Tchaikovsky a far less casual one.

But none seem to have advocated specific anti-Jewish actions, such as appeared later in 20th-century Germany. For that, we can look back to the aging Martin Luther: "Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but 'the devil's people': he referred to them with violent, vile language. Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' would be forced into labour or expelled 'for all time'. " (Wiki)

After that, it seems that maybe Wagner's views aren't really worth talking about!


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> For now I will dare *you*: what is *your own* opinion about Wagner? You have posted a few things here concerning the _Meister_, written by other people, and I remember you saying back in February you were all set and ready for a meeting with him and his art. Have you made any progress since then?


A valid question...

The cold hard fact of the matter is I _have_ been exploring opera of late - listening, reading, watching and researching - from Renaissance antecedents to Monteverdi's L'Orfeo and L'incoronazione di Poppea, through Lully and the French influence, side-tracked by Purcell and his delightful semi-operas (esp. King Arthur), Handel and Mozart (try to make sense of the Magic Flute libretto if you can). But, given that there is just so much to read and listen to - an average opera lasting two and a half hours - I have not yet seriously tackled Wagner. However, I feel that I can only really appreciate the cataclysmic impact he had on opera (and in shaping the course of music in the 19thC and 20thC) by measuring him against what came before. I look forward to exploring his Ring Cycle - for which I am fully kitted-out with two cycles on CD and one on DVD, in addition to a recently published up-dated libretto in translation. My opinion on Wagner is thus temporarily in abeyance, though at this stage I must say, I have yet to come across any other composer with such universally bad PR.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Many people make the mistake of assuming that Wagner's music and philosophy turned Hitler into the sick monster he was . WRONG !!!!!!!!! The fact is that Hitler read his own insane ideas into Wagner .
Those who blame Wagner for Hitler are putting the cart before the horse . 
Wagner's operas (or music dramas if you insist on it) have absolutley NOTHING to do with Jews,Judaism,
racism, ant-semitism etc. (unless you insist on reading an anti-semitic subtext into them, which is questionable ). If you go through the all the librettos ,you will not find a single anti-semitic statement by any of the characters ,no discussions of Jews or Judaism let laone statements dneigrating Jews . There are no Jewish characters . (some,including none other than that great Wagnerian Gustav Mahler ,have descrbed Mime in the Ring as a caricature of Jews ,as well as Beckmesser in Die Meistersinger although this is questionable at best). Kundry in Parsifal ,who is doomed to eternal reincarnation and misery because she laughed at Jesus on the cross, might have been a Jew at the time, but we will never know .
The Ring takes place in a mythical teutonic world where Judaism is non-existent . Kundry makes an oblique reference to Jesus on the cross but refers to Christ as "him" in th e second act of Parsifal when trying to seduce the protagonist . 
But basically, the Wagner operas are stories ABOUT PEOPLE and their relationships ,not anti-semtitic tracts . It makes absolutely no sense to hate Wagner's music because of the man .


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

It is nonsense and "Oh no,not again" is all that comes to mind. Perhaps you would like to explain your reasons for launching into this pointless subject once again.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Which is impossible for me to do!


man up, young lady!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

KRoad said:


> though at this stage I must say, I have yet to come across any other composer with such universally bad PR.


If you care, you will find quite a few free-thinking, smart, and hip, _deeply_ Wagner-intrigued persons where you'd have expected them the least.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

I have a Wagner&Nazi joke but i think its better not to tell it this time.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Is it just my I-pad or can the rest of you get that link?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

jani said:


> I have a Wagner&Nazi joke but i think its better not to tell it this time.


Oh c'mon, we are all grown-up people around here


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Oh c'mon, we are all grown-up people around here


Last time i told it here, some people thought that i was serious >_>...<_<...>_>


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Wagner and Hitler walk into a bar...


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Wagner and Hitler walk into a bar...


...and the bartender says "hold on fellas, is this some kind of a joke?"


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Wagner and Hitler walk into a bar...


... they eat a bratwurst and drink a few beers... and then Wagner pulls out a Teutonic battle-axe... and the rest I leave to your imagination


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

There were no Nazis in Wagner's time.

Anti-semitism was not only rife throughout Europe, but one could say, not lightly, almost fashionable in that many people may have pretended to agree who cared not one way or the other about Jews or Jewry. This shows up in many a book, biographies, including wholesale non sequitur statements such as I read in a Biography of Debussy, that Debussy would be better if he did not associate with so many Jews!

Wagner was no more nastily antisemitic than hosts of other Europeans, including the non famous.

Later association of Wagner with Nazism comes via Hitler, who also thought "Aryan" meant a caucasian race which, better still, were all over six feet tall, blond-haired and blue-eyed , lol.

That people associate Wagner, any of Wagner, with Nazism is yet another issue about which the foot of blame must be squarely put upon the shoulders of Hitler.

That a regie producer wants to be egregiously shallow or glib enough to incorporate Nazi costumed personages in a production of a Wagner opera to get a strong reaction from the German audience needs no further comment.

To me, continuing mention of Wagner / Nazi in the same breath is tiresome, having nothing to do with the music, the composer: it uses both to launch a discussion about things other than the composer and music -- to such a degree of being off the point of music, I think any such mention in this forum belongs in a category other than "Classical music."

If one wishes to discuss Hitler, and whatever associations he had which got him choosing Wagner over another composer, or lack of education or willful ignorance in calling his mythical German Race "Aryan," or any thing else which made Hitler Hitler, this is not the category of this forum to do that in.

There is my mini rant. To and about and around the OP as appearing under any music category... yawn.

[Add p.s. Wagner; 1813 – 1883. Hitler; 1889 – 1945)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

PetrB said:


> To me, continuing mention of Wagner / Nazi in the same breath is tiresome, having nothing to do with the music, the composer: it uses both to launch a discussion about things other than the composer and music -- to such a degree of being off the point of music, I think any such mention in this forum belongs in a category other than "Classical music."
> 
> There is my mini rant. To and about and around the OP, yawn.


This whole topic has been overdiscussed to such an extent that, personally, I am more prone to make fun of it now than anything else.


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## MichaelSolo (Mar 12, 2013)

Are vegetarians banned in Israel?..
Is Lutheran church banned in Israel?

Then why such partiality to Wagner?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> This whole topic has been overdiscussed to such an extent that, personally, I am more prone to make fun of it now than anything else.


Or the people who have no education maybe !


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

What are the root causes of anti-semitism? As I understand it, it is largely due to Christian/Jewish tension, which goes way back...I think the fact that Western classical music evolved from rituals and ceremonies of the Catholic Church has something to do with it. 

I feel this "exclusiveness" of Christianity is also

• The impetus behind Classical music purists' attempts to exclude modernism and serial music from the canon; 

• The impetus behind Classical music purists' attempts to exclude or reject Minimalism from the canon (Philip Glass, Steve Reich, both Jewish, and Terry Riley, immersed in Eastern religion); 

• The impetus behind Classical music purists' attempts to exclude or reject John Cage as a legitimate composer; and

• The impetus behind Classical music purists' attempts to exclude or reject broad definitions of tonality as "not tonal;" which excludes monophonic "world" musics as "non-tonal," as well as any music which does not adhere strictly to an academic definition of tonality based strictly on major/minor scales, triads, and functionality of these triads.

So what did, and does Wagner represent? He represents an exclusive, Christian-derived culture of music which was, at that time and perhaps still, a "good ol' boys" club with exclusive membership, which has excluded almost every other type of approach to tonality and culture except Western.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MichaelSolo said:


> Are vegetarians banned in Israel?..
> Is Lutheran church banned in Israel?
> 
> Then why such partiality to Wagner?


There, knowing history is your friend. It is now an irrational anti-Wagner sentiment for a reason which is very real to those who have it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> What are the root causes of anti-semitism? As I understand it, it is largely due to Christian/Jewish tension, which goes way back...I think the fact that Western classical music evolved from rituals and ceremonies of the Catholic Church has something to do with it.
> 
> I feel this "exclusiveness" of Christianity is also
> 
> ...


Oh, please. Hopping on the coattails of an OP of why Wagner is associated with Hitler and Nazism is serious pandering, imho.

Perhaps an original OP on this point, once posted, will find those who are interested.
"Post the OP and they will come."


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I wonder how many people who are TC members or who listen regularly to classical music ever think about a connection between Nazis, Hitler, or anti-semitism and Wagner (other than when presented with articles such as this one). I never do and I doubt anyone I know does. We may know he was anti-semitic, but that can be said about a large group of people during his lifetime or even now.

I guess I don't always read all of these threads, but I wonder how many like his music _and_ are bothered by connection such as those above.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

We should mention Henry Ford, and Charles Lindbergh. I wonder how many people who are Ford owners or who have worked on assembly lines, or used products produced in this way, ever think about a connection between anti-semitism and Fords, or assembly lines, or American heroes.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Oh, please. Hopping on the coattails of an OP of why Wagner is associated with Hitler and Nazism is serious pandering, imho.
> 
> Perhaps an original OP on this point, once posted, will find those who are interested.
> "Post the OP and they will come."


What should I call it? "Tonality and its hidden roots of Anti-semitism?"


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> I wonder how many like his music _and_ are bothered by connection such as those above.


Count me in that group. My thoughts on the matter can be summarized more or less as follows:

- I think some of Wagner's music is sublime
- I think there is nothing inherently racist about his music and that the anti-Semitic subtext that has been associated with his music has little to do the composer's intentions
- I think that the painful memories the music symbolizes to many people are nonetheless perfectly legitimate, and that those who want the controversy to go away so we can just appreciate the music with a clear conscience have a particular set of priorities I find misguided and can't bring myself to endorse


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Eschbeg said:


> - I think that the painful memories the music symbolizes to many people are nonetheless perfectly legitimate, and that those who want the controversy to go away so we can just appreciate the music with a clear conscience have a particular set of priorities I find misguided and can't bring myself to endorse


I'm not really sure what controversy you mean. Exactly what controversy do people wish would go away? If someone has trouble with Wagner's music because it symbolizes something painful to them, obviously it's reasonable for them not to play or listen to Wagner. I listen to Wagner easily because I do not associate Wagner with Hitler or the Nazis. I know he was anti-semitic, but I can easily separate the man from the music.

I may be misunderstanding what you say above.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Oh c'mon, we are all grown-up people around here


I sure wouldn't bet cold hard cash on _that!_


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> What should I call it? "Tonality and its hidden roots of Anti-semitism?"


_*How The Toxic Tautology of the Euro-Teutonic Christian Culture of Tonicity Has Subverted The Natural Progression And General Acceptance Of Contemporary Music According To The Quadrivium, And Why You Should Care.*_


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> _*How The Toxic Tautology of the Euro-Teutonic Christian Culture of Tonicity Has Subverted The Natural Progression And General Acceptance Of Contemporary Music According To The Quadrivium, And Why You Should Care.*_


That encapsulates a thought I've often had around here with respect to particular posts. But I've never been able to express it!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have read the above posts with some puzzlement. People are saying how they hate this topic and how it shouldn't be brought up. And now we are on the third page of discussing it! Do you guys really mean what you say?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I have read the above posts with some puzzlement. People are saying how they hate this topic and how it shouldn't be brought up. And now we are on the third page of discussing it! Do you guys really mean what you say?


A-yep! This three page thread reaction is mild compared to what a true proportionately equal reaction would be.

It is in no way an aversion to discussing Nazism, Fascism, or the enormous and tragic consequences and the fallout for those affected. It is about the constant harping on Wagner simply because a crazed fascist in 1920, in his ineffible modes of thinking and thirty plus years after Wagner's death, chose Wagner to be the theme music for his new regime. Wagner did not know of Hitler, Nazism, etc. and was just writing opera. Putting them together does disservice to either subject, and perverts a sense of the history of both.

Clearly, a lot of people have had enough of that particular steaming pile of pony dung.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I have read the above posts with some puzzlement. People are saying how they hate this topic and how it shouldn't be brought up. And now we are on the third page of discussing it! Do you guys really mean what you say?


I was intending to make this very point.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> I was intending to make this very point.


Make it. One iteration is not going to balance the endless repetition of that which occasioned it, and we need to redress the imbalance 

Were that all such posts were more often flooded as many times with this "give it a rest, already" kind of presence.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> ...I think there is nothing inherently racist about his music and that the anti-Semitic subtext that has been associated with his music has little to do the composer's intentions
> ...I think that the painful memories the music symbolizes to many people are nonetheless perfectly legitimate....
> 
> ...and that those who want the controversy to go away so we can just appreciate the music with a clear conscience have a particular set of priorities I find misguided and can't bring myself to endorse


The third is seriously, your problem.

Hitler attached the music of Wagner to his Reich. No one has yet said anything about the illegitimacy about the memories and feelings _as prompted by Wagner's music or mention of Wagner_ of those directly affected -- for generations -- by the horrors of that war or Reich.

At the same time, there is no reason to use Wagner, arbitrarily chosen by a fascist dictator, as a springboard to launch a discussion about the dictator, or the horrid and obscene consequences of the actions of that regime for so many.

To continually bring the Wagner / Nazi tie into a discussion of Wagner is not reasonable: in fact to use it as a springboard as a platform to give a lesson or reminder about fascism or specifically Hitler is actually a bit tyrannical in its own right.

I find it both condescending and arrogant to presume that those who listen to Wagner, or those discussing that composer and his music are either unaware of world history, the holocaust, etc. and don't care about any of that.

Don't confuse the two


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Wagner was certainly an outspoken anti-Semite, but so were a lot of people in those days -- even though they may have counted individual Jews among their friends and supporters. Beethoven was a casual anti-Semite, for instance, and Tchaikovsky a far less casual one.
> 
> But none seem to have advocated specific anti-Jewish actions, such as appeared later in 20th-century Germany. For that, we can look back to the aging Martin Luther: "Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but 'the devil's people': he referred to them with violent, vile language. Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' would be forced into labour or expelled 'for all time'. " (Wiki)
> 
> After that, it seems that maybe Wagner's views aren't really worth talking about!


I skimmed that and read it as Martin Luther King Jr. and was very confused.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> I'm not really sure what controversy you mean. Exactly what controversy do people wish would go away?


I am referring to those who wish the discussion would end, as illustrated by comments scattered throughout this thread and every other one on the topic.



mmsbls said:


> I can easily separate the man from the music.


So can I. As I mentioned, the associations the music has acquired have little to do with Wagner and much to do with the actions of later people over whom Wagner obviously had no control, just as Christopher Nolan, director of _The Dark Knight Rises_, had nothing to do with the actions of James Holmes last summer. But for the same reason I would never ask the survivors of Aurora, CO, "forget all that other stuff; what did you think of the _movie?_," I would also not expect people who are emotionally affected by Wagner to please just forget that other stuff and value the operas as _music_, nor would I demand that they stop talking about their inability to separate the art work from the associations that have been placed on it.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

PetrB said:


> The third is seriously, your problem.


That is self-evident, just as it is self-evidently the problem of those who are also scarred by this music. Acknowledging this changes nothing.



PetrB said:


> I find it both condescending and arrogant to presume that those who listen to Wagner, or those discussing that composer and his music are either unaware of world history, the holocaust, etc. and don't care about any of that.


So do I, as I myself also listen to Wagner. The comments here show pretty amply that no one is unaware of the world history or the holocaust. But as long as people are affected by that awareness, I see no reason to discourage talking about it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

How many people on this forum have been scarred by Wagner's music ?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> How many people on this forum have been scarred by Wagner's music ?




Depends on how seriously one regards the perils of ennui.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> That is self-evident, just as it is self-evidently the problem of those who are also scarred by this music. Acknowledging this changes nothing.
> 
> So do I, as I myself also listen to Wagner. The comments here show pretty amply that no one is unaware of the world history or the holocaust. But as long as people are affected by that awareness, I see no reason to discourage talking about it.


Well, if it came up, by a person actually directly affected, I'm certain that person would be given all due courtesy.

Just imagine, though, no one so far directly affected has bothered to respond _or start a thread on that topic under an appropriate category. (Perhaps a heading like, "The power of music as used / misused as associated with product in advertising or as associated by its use in politics" might be good, but not prime enough about music to drop it in the classical music category at all.)_ The flap here is about the umpteenth mention, reflexive it seems, of Wagner and Nazism mentioned in one short breath.

One TC member whose family (non-Jews) seems to have been badly scarred by WWII, fleeing Europe, emigrating, subsequently suffering bitterness and succumbing to alcoholism, those damages extending down for three generations, has figured out the where of placing discussion on the topic, as well as have most others so affected, regardless of which badly affected generation they are from.

*That brings up an earnest question as to why others who know their history but were not so negatively affected are still so keen to show a near hypersensitivity and feel a duty to bring the topic up along with Wagner in about every Wagner posting.*


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Clearly, a lot of people have had enough of that particular steaming pile of pony dung.


And yet... the last two posts on Wagner (one of which has been moved to the Opera section) have together generated twelve pages of verbeage so far. Just saying.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> A-yep!
> Clearly, a lot of people have had enough of that particular steaming pile of pony dung.


So we stay away, but we ARE grateful to the public-spirited who approach the pile to place public warning signs around it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

KRoad said:


> And yet... the last two posts on Wagner (one of which has been moved to the Opera section) have together generated twelve pages of verbeage so far. Just saying.


Yes and look at said verbiage ---nonsense.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Someone should invite the director of that notorious _Tannhäuser_ here, where he can talk about Wagner and Nazis all he wants. Maybe then he will get sick and tired of that topic too and think better than to bring the Nazis _into Tannhäuser_.


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## MichaelSolo (Mar 12, 2013)

^^^
C'mon, it was just ego and a little bit of business/publicity. He already got out of the "event" more than he ever expected.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

PetrB said:


> *That brings up an earnest question as to why others who know their history but were not so negatively affected are still so keen to show a near hypersensitivity and feel a duty to bring the topic up along with Wagner in about every Wagner posting.*


Got me. The "hypersensitivity" is not so confusing to me--it is, simply, a hypersensitive topic, and I don't think one has to have been a WWII survivor in order to consider it so--but whether it needs to be brought up in every single Wagner discussion is something we are not likely to disagree on. (Though why people are hemming and hawing about having to go through the issue in this particular thread, where it has been made the explicit topic, is a bit baffling to me.)


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Eschbeg said:


> Got me. The "hypersensitivity" is not so confusing to me--it is, simply, a hypersensitive topic, and I don't think one has to have been a WWII survivor in order to consider it so--but whether it needs to be brought up in every single Wagner discussion is something we are not likely to disagree on. (Though why people are hemming and hawing about having to go through the issue in this particular thread, where it has been made the explicit topic, is a bit baffling to me.)


Probably because it should not be a topic--it is a non-topic pile of garbage.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

It was about at 1 a.m. this morning, while I was quietly working on something on my digital keyboard, that a neighbor knocked on my door. I was a bit surprised, having long ago found the volume level where I could work without disturbing any of the most immediate, or further remote neighbors in the building.

I asked them what they wanted, and they said, 
"Do you know there is yet _another_ Wagner and Nazi thread posted on Talk Classical?"

I answered, 
"No, but if you hum me about four bars of it I think I'll be able to follow you."


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

There's no debate in my realm..."Your papers, please!"


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Well, if it came up, by a person actually directly affected, I'm certain that person would be given all due courtesy.
> 
> Just imagine, though, no one so far directly affected has bothered to respond _or start a thread on that topic under an appropriate category. (Perhaps a heading like, "The power of music as used / misused as associated with product in advertising or as associated by its use in politics" might be good, but not prime enough about music to drop it in the classical music category at all.)_ The flap here is about the umpteenth mention, reflexive it seems, of Wagner and Nazism mentioned in one short breath.
> 
> ...


It's called jumping on the bandwagon.


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