# I'm Out Of Here ---- Bon Voyage



## Mirror Image

Hello Everyone,

I will be leaving this forum affective immediately. There is a general lack of conversations happening around here and a lot less talk about classical music. I don't see any reason why I should stick around.

I will be searching for another forum to join. I'm just tired of the way things are going around here lately.

This is TalkClassical, not TalkPolitics, TalkMetal, or even TalkJazz. I've enjoyed myself while I was here, but I'm sick and tired of all the moderators sticking up for people who show NO INTEREST in discussing classical. I'm out of here for good this time.

Take care everyone,



Mirror Image


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## Tapkaara

The end of an era...


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## Air

Not this again...


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## Tapkaara

airad2 said:


> Not this again...


Hahaha, I was thinking the same thing...


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## Sid James

Well, I think that this is somewhat of a pity, since MI has been one of the most regular contributors here. I've enjoyed conversing with him, even if we disagreed...


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## Tapkaara

How the mighty have fallen...


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## Sid James

It's strange because, for the most part, one can just take part in the general classical discussions - there is plenty happening there. There's no need to take part in the other discussions. I have taken minimum part in the other threads. I'm not as interested in them as what's going on in the main threads...


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## Air

Tapkaara said:


> How the mighty have fallen...


This is very depressing. A great hoard of actively contributing senior members have seemingly left in the last month: World Violist, Lisztfreak, Rachovsky, Post-minimalist, and now... Mirror Image.

I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to stay and watch TalkClassical deteriorate simply into... Talk.


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## Tapkaara

airad2 said:


> This is very depressing. A great hoard of actively contributing senior members have seemingly left in the last month: World Violist, Lisztfreak, Rachovsky, Post-minimalist, and now... Mirror Image.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to stay and watch TalkClassical deteriorate simply into... Talk.


Don't worry Airad, we can still talk about metal music...maybe sometimes even talk about classical.


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## Conservationist

Andre said:


> It's strange because, for the most part, one can just take part in the general classical discussions - there is plenty happening there.


Exactly.

Nurture what you want to see, and it grows.

Some people started getting territorial, and it forced them into negative feedback loops, where they were thriving on the challenge presented by others and threw all their energy into a war of attrition against those, instead of nurturing what they desired.

My guess is that they will be back in 6-24 weeks.


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## Tapkaara

This thread is deviating from its original intent...which is to discuss metal. Metal versions of the Spring movement from Vivaldi's Four Seasons...hell yeah!


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## Conservationist

That would be disrespectful to the memory of the fallen.


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## bassClef

MI must be seeking attention again. Yawn.


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## Andy Loochazee

jezbo said:


> MI must be seeking attention again. Yawn.


I am not surprised that MI has left. It was only a matter of time. He burned himself out, inevitably. Both the volume and content of his freakish posting levels, at all hours of the day, indicated to me that he had various personality issues. Some members may have been taken in by him but I suspect that many others found his musical "knowledge" to be pretentious, and his enthusiasm for it fake and over the top. Classical music is probably his latest "flavour of the month" interest. I reckon that the way he sprawled his many opinions all over this Board, and his often touchy and dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagreed with him, was the cause of several other member departures. I'm pretty sure that no other Board will tolerate him for long.


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## bassClef

My bet is he'll be back, and soon, if not as MI then in some other guise - but if so I think he'll be easy to recognise!


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## Andy Loochazee

jezbo said:


> My bet is he'll be back, and soon, if not as MI then in some other guise - but if so I think he'll be easy to recognise!


I'm sure you are right. Addicts like him can't give as easily as that. They have to go through an anti- addiction course and follow a 12-step program: (i) "_I admit I was powerless over posting at T-C; (ii) "I came to realise there is a one Power greater than ourselves could restore me to sanity_"; blah blah.

Most people don't complete the course, so I reckon he'll be back either as MI or posing under some other name, but if so it will be dead easy to spot him. It should be fun watching developments.


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## Conservationist

He's going to come back disguised as a metalhead...


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## Aramis

Mirror Image said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I will be leaving this forum affective immediately. There is a general lack of conversations happening around here and a lot less talk about classical music. I don't see any reason why I should stick around.
> 
> I will be searching for another forum to join. I'm just tired of the way things are going around here lately.
> 
> This is TalkClassical, not TalkPolitics, TalkMetal, or even TalkJazz. I've enjoyed myself while I was here, but I'm sick and tired of all the moderators sticking up for people who show NO INTEREST in discussing classical. I'm out of here for good this time.
> 
> Take care everyone,
> 
> Mirror Image


Rotfl.

First time you was leaving I thought: "too bad - he is, after all, a nice guy and valueable user". Now I think you are pathetic. I know from experience that person who really wants to leave just leaves. Without any farewell topics.


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## emiellucifuge

Im fairly new here (despite my senior member label), but have been reading around many of MIs posts.

I think this is a good thing, he was pretentious, an elitist (not the only one) - he didnt seem to accept others people views and criticised everyones grammar or miswording. I didnt like him, there are people here who I think are probably great people but he isnt one of them.

About the metal stuff, I think if youre al lconerned about it we should just remove the entire section on other genres and stop being so offensive to metal fans.

I would hate to see this forum deteriorate so quickly as Ive only just joined and am starting to like it here.


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## bassClef

He wants to read about how we all want him to stay! 

Anyone??


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## bassClef

*So who WOULD we miss?*

Perhaps we should use this thread for more positive things, and to divert attention from he that seems to crave it.

Like, who WOULD we actually miss the most if they left?

My vote: Tapkaara - good sense of humour and the closest in musical tastes to my own !


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## starry

jezbo said:


> Perhaps we should use this thread for more positive things, and to divert attention from he that seems to crave it.
> 
> Like, who WOULD we actually miss the most if they left?
> 
> My vote: Tapkaara - good sense of humour and the closest in musical tastes to my own !


I don't really like turning forums into being about the posters that much. It's the anonymous internet and it's better to just keep to discussing the subjects that interest people and brought them to the forum in the first place than turn it around into being about the posters (whether to praise people or slag them off).


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## emiellucifuge

Tapkaara I agree, but this thread needs to be closed right now.


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## Dim7

It's really weird for such an active poster declare that he simply won't post here again ever, simply because of "general lack of conversations." If he had serious quarrels with a lot of forum members or something then that would be more understandable. Or that he would simply mention at some post that he probably isn't going to be as active or perhaps not post at all or something. 

I remember at least one instance where a forum user declared he will leave the forum completely but after a short time came back. In that case it was clearly begging for attention, we'll see what will happen with Mirror Image. The forum wil for sure be more quiet.


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## jhar26

Andy Loochazee said:


> his enthusiasm for it fake and over the top. Classical music is probably his latest "flavour of the month" interest.


Whether you agree with his opinions is a different matter, but his love for classical music is genuine. Nobody buys as many cd's as he does if he isn't passionate about it.


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## Praine

Let me get this straight... JTech got banned, turned into Mirror Image with a goal to be "more polite", and now he's leaving after 2 months of excessive posting?


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## Dim7

Yeah, I mean there's probably people who just pretend to like classical to show off or something, but nobody's that desperate that they would simply for that reason buy ridiculously many CD's, having simultaneously very wide range of different compositions and composers AND lots of different versions of the same work.


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## Conservationist

Cmaj7 said:


> It's really weird for such an active poster declare that he simply won't post here again ever, simply because of "general lack of conversations."


I beg to differ: it's not weird at all, but was what should have been expected from the archetype. He liked control; it's an affliction that hits many people on the internet when they become heavily invested in their online personae.



jhar26 said:


> Whether you agree with his opinions is a different matter, but his love for classical music is genuine. Nobody buys as many cd's as he does if he isn't passionate about it.


I also beg to differ here, although I am not speaking of the specific user: buying stuff is easy. It doesn't indicate anything other than having a credit card and time on your hands. He seemed to really connect with Bruckner, but his talkative ego might lead him into hip-hop next month.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Andy Loochazee said:


> I am not surprised that MI has left. It was only a matter of time. He burned himself out, inevitably.


_"...violent fires soon burn out themselves- 
small show'rs last long, but sudden storms are short.
He tires betimes that spurs too fast betimes;
with eager feeding doth choke the feeder."_ John of Gaunt's soliliquy from *Shakespeare*'s RICHARD II.

Don't like that one- how about this:

*"When you have to shoot, SHOOT! Don't talk!"* Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan María Ramírez (known as The Rat)- 
THE GOOD, THE BAD, & THE UGLY.


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## Tapkaara

jezbo said:


> Perhaps we should use this thread for more positive things, and to divert attention from he that seems to crave it.
> 
> Like, who WOULD we actually miss the most if they left?
> 
> My vote: Tapkaara - good sense of humour and the closest in musical tastes to my own !


Aaaah, well Jezbo...how can one reply to such flattery? 

I think we're all sceptical that Mirror Image WON'T be back...be it as Mirror Image or a new incarnation. So we'll see...


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## jhar26

jezbo said:


> My vote: Tapkaara - good sense of humour and the closest in musical tastes to my own !


He's definitely a contender. Anyone who loves Pachelbel's 'Canon & Gigue' as much as he does must be a great guy.


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## Tapkaara

The Canon in D of J. Pachelbel is constantly turning over in my head the same way waves crash against the shore in an almost perfect cadence. In fact...Canon in D...waves crashing...reminds me of my favorite CD...the one I bought at Target..."Greatest Hits of Pachelbel and Vivaldi with Waves Crashing in the Background." If I don't listen to the disc in its entirety at least twice per day, my eyes droop and my mouth becomes very dry.

Really, all classical music should have added sound effects of waves crashing. Maybe I could sit through Schonberg if there were more waves!


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## Andy Loochazee

Reign of Praine said:


> Let me get this straight... JTech got banned, turned into Mirror Image with a goal to be "more polite", and now he's leaving after 2 months of excessive posting?


I didn't know that. Are you sure?



jhar26 said:


> Whether you agree with his opinions is a different matter, but his love for classical music is genuine. Nobody buys as many cd's as he does if he isn't passionate about it.


I would seriously query whether it is feasible for a newbie to classical music to purchase thousands of CDs in 6 months, since the start of their active interest in classical music. This is exactly what MI said only yesterday: "_I've got thousands of CDs too!"_, in answer to you on the latest purchases thread. Do you really believe this? I certainly don't. Furthermore, his selections made no sense as there was a ridiculous amount of unnecessary duplication. Such duplication is not something the majority of people do until they have acquired a far better knowledge of the subject than he evidently had. And 1000's of CDs cost big bucks.



Conservationist said:


> I also beg to differ here, although I am not speaking of the specific user: buying stuff is easy. It doesn't indicate anything other than having a credit card and time on your hands. He seemed to really connect with Bruckner, but his talkative ego might lead him into hip-hop next month.


You don't even need a credit card. All you need to do is point your mouse at a relevant picture of a CD on Amazon, copy it here, and say "I bought this", when in fact you haven't bought anything. It's all kidology. I'm surprised anyone believed a word of it.


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## Air

What a respectful way to speak over the will of the dead...


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## Tapkaara

Mirror Image either faked his purchases are he was extraordinarily rich...!


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## agoukass

I guess that he burned himself out and that's the main reason why he left.

Re: CD Collecting Addiction

I tend to collect when I have money. I don't order ten CDs a day or a boxed set a day because I don't have the money to do so. There are times when people splurge and other times when they close up their wallets. It happens to everyone. It is also possible to reach a saturation point with purchases.


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## Air

Well he did mention having to stop for awhile, sitting down, and listening to his collection...

and plus he only has around 1000-1500 CDs, seeing the numbers in the 3,000s posted in the Unmasked: Your Classical Collection thread it's hard not to be intimidated... and remember his jazz collection is equally large.

Now I think his interest for classical music is genuine. He has good taste, but very original taste... not like he read it off of something. He seems to know the pieces he like very well too.


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## Tapkaara

I swear, he was the member here with the most money. If only I could buy 100 CDs per week...!


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## Conservationist

Andy Loochazee said:


> You don't even need a credit card. All you need to do is point your mouse at a relevant picture of a CD on Amazon, copy it here, and say "I bought this", when in fact you haven't bought anything.


I'm avoiding Amazon because I have a tendency to "buy this," although most of what I get there are books. It's the same problem with idly walking into a good record store. Of course, the record stores with credible classical selections are dwindling in some areas. I don't consider "Classical Easy Listening Favorites for Making Your Baby's Brain Grow as It Sleeps" to be a classical selection, but maybe I'm just an elitist.


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## jhar26

airad2 said:


> Well he did mention having to stop for awhile, sitting down, and listening to his collection...
> 
> and plus he only has around 1000-1500 CDs, seeing the numbers in the 3,000s posted in the Unmasked: Your Classical Collection thread it's hard not to be intimidated... and remember his jazz collection is equally large.
> 
> Now I think his interest for classical music is genuine. He has good taste, but very original taste... not like he read it off of something. He seems to know the pieces he like very well too.


His jazz collection is much bigger. Something like 5000 albums I think he said.


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## Tapkaara

5000 jazz albums, 3000 classical. Roughly 8000 CDs....WOW.


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## JoeGreen

jezbo said:


> Like, who WOULD we actually miss the most if they left?
> 
> My vote: Tapkaara - good sense of humour and the closest in musical tastes to my own !


I'd second that one. 

I wish I had the money to built a collection Like Mirror Image's.


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## bassClef

Andy Loochazee said:


> I didn't know that. Are you sure?
> 
> I would seriously query whether it is feasible for a newbie to classical music to purchase thousands of CDs in 6 months, since the start of their active interest in classical music. This is exactly what MI said only yesterday: "_I've got thousands of CDs too!"_, in answer to you on the latest purchases thread. Do you really believe this? I certainly don't. Furthermore, his selections made no sense as there was a ridiculous amount of unnecessary duplication. Such duplication is not something the majority of people do until they have acquired a far better knowledge of the subject than he evidently had. And 1000's of CDs cost big bucks.
> 
> You don't even need a credit card. All you need to do is point your mouse at a relevant picture of a CD on Amazon, copy it here, and say "I bought this", when in fact you haven't bought anything. It's all kidology. I'm surprised anyone believed a word of it.


Yes, MI used to be JTech82 but he got banned - it really made me laugh when MI answered his own (ie. JTech82's) question ("unmasked - your classical collection" or something).

I do think he probably bought all those CDs - he didn't seem to have any other life to speak of, so if it made him happy why not? I have a wife and 4 kids so don't have his kind of spare cash, or time...

He was pretty knowledgeable in some areas, but sometimes it was a bit forced. One day he'd never heard Suk, and the next day he was an expert, seriously!

Duplication isn't always unnecessary - I myself have 11 copies of Le Sacre du Printemps, since I love it so much and want to hear all the different interpretations, and get something different from each one. But that's just one piece - MI seemed to want every interpretation of every symphonic cycle which is a bit much!

Well, at least we can say this for him - he was a character!


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## Andy Loochazee

Tapkaara said:


> 5000 jazz albums, 3000 classical. Roughly 8000 CDs....WOW.


His mouse must have been pretty busy.

It's interesting what he wrote in the Hi-Fi thread on 24 May where members are invited to describe their hi fi system:

"_The title of this thread should include a plural the word system, because I have *many* systems, but my main one consist of the following: ..."_ (my embolding)

This bragging style was typical of everything he wrote. He couldn't stop it and had to be the best at everything, including being the fastest acquirer of classical CDs even though the bulk of it was sheer duplication. He made me ROFTFL each time wrote anything, and I could scarcely believe that anyone could be so taken in by any of it.


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## Tapkaara

If anything, Jtech/Mirror image is probably the single most infamous/controversial _personnage_ in Talk Classical history...even in his (short-lived?) absence, he riles such vigorous conversation.


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## bassClef

Andy Loochazee said:


> ... I could scarcely believe that anyone could be so taken in by any of it.


I don't think any of us were taken in by it, we tolerated his oneupmanship because sometimes he made some valuable contributions to discussions.


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## Tapkaara

Andy Loochazee said:


> His mouse must have been pretty busy.
> 
> It's interesting what he wrote in the Hi-Fi thread on 24 May where members are invited to describe their hi fi system:
> 
> "_The title of this thread should include a plural the word system, because I have *many* systems, but my main one consist of the following: ..."_ (my embolding)
> 
> This bragging style was typical of everything he wrote. He couldn't stop it and had to be the best at everything, including being the fastest acquirer of classical CDs even though the bulk of it was sheer duplication. He made me ROFTFL each time wrote anything, and I could scarcely believe that anyone could be so taken in by any of it.


At least he did not claim to play at least 8 instruments "like a pro;" that distinction goes to another (apparently) defunct member...


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## JoeGreen

jezbo said:


> I do think he probably bought all those CDs - he didn't seem to have any other life to speak of, so if it made him happy why not? I have a wife and 4 kids so don't have his kind of spare cash, or time...


Maybe that's why he got all upset that there where topics on politics and metal music and other stuff, these were areas were he couldn't contribute much, and it .... it made him upset...


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## Andy Loochazee

jezbo said:


> Yes, MI used to be JTech82 but he got banned - it really made me laugh when MI answered his own (ie. JTech82's) question ("unmasked - your classical collection" or something).
> 
> I do think he probably bought all those CDs - he didn't seem to have any other life to speak of, so if it made him happy why not? I have a wife and 4 kids so don't have his kind of spare cash, or time...
> 
> He was pretty knowledgeable in some areas, but sometimes it was a bit forced. One day he'd never heard Suk, and the next day he was an expert, seriously!
> 
> Duplication isn't always unnecessary - I myself have 11 copies of Le Sacre du Printemps, since I love it so much and want to hear all the different interpretations, and get something different from each one. But that's just one piece - MI seemed to want every interpretation of every symphonic cycle which is a bit much!
> 
> Well, at least we can say this for him - he was a character!


If he was JTech82, how was it that he was allowed to come back? Is this general knowledge? I thought that if a member is permanently banned that's the end of the matter. On other classical music Boards that I know of, that is certainly the case: they are not allowed to return. If it is allowed here generally, this seems to defeat the whole purpose of being banned, especially when the individual concerned comes back with only slightly modified behaviour. If it is allowed selectively, this would seem unfair as I can think of a few former members of T-C who were permanently banned and who were far better informed and liked that JTech, but who never came back presumably because their appeals were rejected.

I agree that it was very easy to catch out MI on his musical knowledge. I spotted many instances of dubious comments indicating a very shaky knowledge. He would also come out with comments that he obviously thought new or insightful (e.g. Ravel was an impressionist and later a neo-classical composer) but which is common knowledge to anyone who might be interested in the subject. Your reference to "Suk" (not knowing him one day and being an expert the next) perfectly typifies what I believe, namely that rather than admit ignorance he would get on a quick learning curve (eg Wiki) and pretend to be knowledgeable. It stuck out like a sore thumb.

I agree that there is nothing sinister about a newbie having some duplication of material by way of different orchestra/conductor. But like you say in MI's case it was the rule rather than the exception, and he didn't buy just a couple of different versions but sometimes it went as high as about 6-7 or more. To me this seemed quite incredible. There was never any explanation why he wanted so many interpretations.


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## andruini

It would've been funnier if no one had replied to this thread..
Not that I have anything against him, but creating a thread like this is solely for dramatic effect..


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## Mirror Image

Andy Loochazee said:


> If he was JTech82, how was it that he was allowed to come back? Is this general knowledge? I thought that if a member is permanently banned that's the end of the matter. On other classical music Boards that I know of, that is certainly the case: they are not allowed to return. If it is allowed here generally, this seems to defeat the whole purpose of being banned, especially when the individual concerned comes back with only slightly modified behaviour. If it is allowed selectively, this would seem unfair as I can think of a few former members of T-C who were permanently banned and who were far better informed and liked that JTech, but who never came back presumably because their appeals were rejected.
> 
> I agree that it was very easy to catch out MI on his musical knowledge. I spotted many instances of dubious comments indicating a very shaky knowledge. He would also come out with comments that he obviously thought new or insightful (e.g. Ravel was an impressionist and later a neo-classical composer) but which is common knowledge to anyone who might be interested in the subject. Your reference to "Suk" (not knowing him one day and being an expert the next) perfectly typifies what I believe, namely that rather than admit ignorance he would get on a quick learning curve (eg Wiki) and pretend to be knowledgeable. It stuck out like a sore thumb.
> 
> I agree that there is nothing sinister about a newbie having some duplication of material by way of different orchestra/conductor. But like you say in MI's case it was the rule rather than the exception, and he didn't buy just a couple of different versions but sometimes it went as high as about 6-7 or more. To me this seemed quite incredible. There was never any explanation why he wanted so many interpretations.


For somebody who has NEVER even spoke one word to me you sure do pack quite a powerful punch when I'm not around to defend myself.

I never said I was an expert in anything. I'm a fan of classical music, I listen to it, I enjoy it, I'm passionate about it, and I collect it. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with somebody who is passionate about something. Perhaps I don't share the same ideals about you, I'm glad I don't, but your posts have clearly showed me that I shouldn't turn my back on anyone.

I don't care if you don't like me. That doesn't bother me, but at least have the common decency to tell it to me.


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## Mirror Image

Andy Loochazee said:


> I am not surprised that MI has left. It was only a matter of time. He burned himself out, inevitably. Both the volume and content of his freakish posting levels, at all hours of the day, indicated to me that he had various personality issues. Some members may have been taken in by him but I suspect that many others found his musical "knowledge" to be pretentious, and his enthusiasm for it fake and over the top. Classical music is probably his latest "flavour of the month" interest. I reckon that the way he sprawled his many opinions all over this Board, and his often touchy and dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagreed with him, was the cause of several other member departures. I'm pretty sure that no other Board will tolerate him for long.


Yes, I have a "fake" enthusiasm for classical music, that's why I have over 1600 posts. 

Yeah, I also have personality issues. Most of your posts in this thread could be considered ad homs (i. e. insults).


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## Mirror Image

Andy Loochazee said:


> I didn't know that. Are you sure?
> 
> I would seriously query whether it is feasible for a newbie to classical music to purchase thousands of CDs in 6 months, since the start of their active interest in classical music. This is exactly what MI said only yesterday: "_I've got thousands of CDs too!"_, in answer to you on the latest purchases thread. Do you really believe this? I certainly don't. Furthermore, his selections made no sense as there was a ridiculous amount of unnecessary duplication. Such duplication is not something the majority of people do until they have acquired a far better knowledge of the subject than he evidently had. And 1000's of CDs cost big bucks.
> 
> You don't even need a credit card. All you need to do is point your mouse at a relevant picture of a CD on Amazon, copy it here, and say "I bought this", when in fact you haven't bought anything. It's all kidology. I'm surprised anyone believed a word of it.


My interest in classical has always been prominent in my life, but it hasn't been until last January that I have been seriously enraptured with this music. Classical has been in my family for a very long time.

Again, your posts are like knives in my back. I never even seen you post on this forum and all of sudden you start posting again, and you insult me?

You know nothing about me and your judgements are way off the mark. If want to talk to me, then talk to me, don't use this thread as a way to "cut me down" to somehow make yourself look better.


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## Conservationist

andruini said:


> It would've been funnier if no one had replied to this thread..
> Not that I have anything against him, but creating a thread like this is solely for dramatic effect..


Indeed. Drama is now in high gear.


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## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> Indeed. Drama is now in high gear.


No, there's not going to be any drama. I'm just a person who loves music and loves talking about it. That's who I am.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Andy Loochazee said:


> ...it will be dead easy to spot him. It should be fun watching developments.


Yeah, _I'll_ say...

G-d knows I've had enough practice...


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## Mirror Image

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Yeah, _I'll_ say...
> 
> G-d knows I've had enough practice...




It's good to be back. One important thing this thread has shown me: never turn my back to anyone.


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## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> It's good to be back. One important thing this thread has shown me: never turn my back to anyone.


Let me rephrase it this way:

It's not never turn your back on anyone.

It's: remember that everything you do shows who you are.

Also, I did not accuse you or anyone else of drama. I meant that drama threads beget drama. Not that I'm entirely opposed to drama.


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## World Violist

airad2 said:


> This is very depressing. A great hoard of actively contributing senior members have seemingly left in the last month: World Violist, Lisztfreak, Rachovsky, Post-minimalist, and now... Mirror Image.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to stay and watch TalkClassical deteriorate simply into... Talk.


Uh... I'm not gone. I'm just idle for the moment. Things are getting absurdly busy. I'll try to be more active as things begin to settle down.

I was quite shocked to find that MI had left (this was my first time on the internet for the past several days). Most saddening. Even though I had left for a while back a half a year ago or so, I still came back. So maybe something similar will happen?

Whatever the case, we must continue to discuss classical music.

EDIT: OK, so apparently he's back already. Weird... ok.


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## Tapkaara

I have to ask, my Dear Mirror Image: With this thread, you left fairly decisively and stated several reasons for doing so. Now you're back the same day...what happened? In other words, did you have a huge change of heart? It's just that it seemed so...final.


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## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> I have to ask, my Dear Mirror Image: With this thread, you left fairly decisively and stated several reasons for doing so. Now you're back the same day...what happened? In other words, did you have a huge change of heart? It's just that it seemed so...final.


Well I read through some of these posts and I just couldn't let that one poster whom I never even talked to tear me down like that. I had to come back and defend myself.

Perhaps I should have just and stayed gone, but I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that....ah forget it, you know I couldn't stay gone. 

I'll probably end up doing this again down the road, so don't be surprised when you see me get fed up with it again.


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## starry

Conservationist said:


> Let me rephrase it this way:
> 
> It's not never turn your back on anyone.
> 
> It's: remember that everything you do shows who you are.
> 
> Also, I did not accuse you or anyone else of drama. I meant that drama threads beget drama. Not that I'm entirely opposed to drama.


I'm not sure if anyone really remembered what I said earlier but I don't like things getting turned personal. You cannot understand someone fully from some words on the internet, just like - although people here think you can - you can't judge someone fully on their appearance either. It's better to just stick to the subject. If someone says goodbye or hello, say goodbye or hello. If they say there is not enough classical music discussion then discuss that.


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## Conservationist

starry said:


> I'm not sure if anyone really remembered what I said earlier but I don't like things getting turned personal. You cannot understand someone fully from some words on the internet, just like - although people here think you can - you can't judge someone fully on their appearance either. It's better to just stick to the subject. If someone says goodbye or hello, say goodbye or hello. If they say there is not enough classical music discussion then discuss that.


Do you need to understand them fully? If some guy is walking toward me down the street with a bulge in his right-side pocket, do I need to understand him fully to realize he may be a mugger and I should avoid him?

This liberalized crap -- sorry, I think that little of it -- suggests that we need to know someone "fully" or to "judge" them. We don't. We need to know what fits the filter of what we need, and what hits our danger points, and flaky behavior does that latter and will get an appropriate response.


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## Elgarian

World Violist said:


> Uh... I'm not gone. I'm just idle for the moment.


I was startled to see that your departure had been announced earlier in this thread, and relieved to discover here that it isn't so. I hope the same is true of Fergus, Rachovsky & co - but we all drift in and out as our lives permit, don't we? So I expect and hope they'll be back in due course.


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## starry

Conservationist said:


> Do you need to understand them fully? If some guy is walking toward me down the street with a bulge in his right-side pocket, do I need to understand him fully to realize he may be a mugger and I should avoid him?
> 
> This liberalized crap -- sorry, I think that little of it -- suggests that we need to know someone "fully" or to "judge" them. We don't. We need to know what fits the filter of what we need, and what hits our danger points, and flaky behavior does that latter and will get an appropriate response.


Internet forums are not literally like real life as you compare, they are are areas for discussion and you are with people who you might not get on with in real life. If someone is abusive then it's up to the moderators to ban them or at least give them a warning. So it's an issue to take up with a moderator or admin. If you don't like someone's opinion or how they speak you can always put them on ignore and so never see their posts (except when someone quotes them probably). This is why I don't see any point in turning discussion into being personal and about people.

I think there is quite alot of bigotry in real life where people can have preconceived opinions about people but that was more a point that was suggested to me elsewhere on this forum (and definitely on other places on the internet). And the example of someone coming down the street with something bulging in their pocket is an extreme example which does not justify all kinds of prejudice.


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## Mirror Image

I'm back and so the party begins and the members who have come out of the woods to protest how bad I am go back into hibernation.


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## Faenval

It amazes me how much pent-up hostility was directed toward MI. I mean, we all have our faults, but this topic got ridiculous so quickly...

And even if some of those things are true about MI, it's been thanks to his contributions and recommendations on this forum that I've become more interested in assimilating classical music. Even if he's been wrong, or boastful, or said things I don't agree with, just by posting his selections I've been able to broaden my tastes and discover what I personally enjoy. For that I'm grateful.

(And, yes, I am a habitual lurker on these boards -- not much of a poster... )


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## Mirror Image

Faenval said:


> It amazes me how much pent-up hostility was directed toward MI. I mean, we all have our faults, but this topic got ridiculous so quickly...
> 
> And even if some of those things are true about MI, it's been thanks to his contributions and recommendations on this forum that I've become more interested in assimilating classical music. Even if he's been wrong, or boastful, or said things I don't agree with, just by posting his selections I've been able to broaden my tastes and discover what I personally enjoy. For that I'm grateful.
> 
> (And, yes, I am a habitual lurker on these boards -- not much of a poster... )


Thank you very much, Faenval! I have seen you around here several times, but it's great to know that I have helped you in some way.

I like to think of myself as a collector first and listener second. Both of these things are very important to me and I'm always happy to share my latest purchases with everybody, because I think there are some people out there (not everybody, but some) who think that owning one recording of Bartok's "Concerto for Orchestra," for example, is it, there aren't any other recordings that will top or better the one they already own. By owning different recordings of the same works I'm able to fully appreciate the broad spectrum of interpretations there are for that given work. Every conductor, orchestra, soloists (if it's a solo piece like a concerto) will play a piece differently. Everybody feels something completely different each time they step onto that stage, which in turn, will give the performance a different feeling. This is why I collect different interpretations. It's not because I love the piece so much that I want to buy every recording I can of it, it's because I want to hear it played by people with different feelings and compare that performance to the other performances I already have heard.


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## vavaving

Mirror Image said:


> There is a general lack of conversations happening around here and a lot less talk about classical music.
> I will be searching for another forum to join. I'm just tired of the way things are going around here lately.


You know, if your goal really is to facilitate classical conversationalism, then following through and joining several other related forums will accomplish exactly that. If you also enjoy leaving and returning, then you can do so several times a day! Hello? Goodbye.


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## Mirror Image

vavaving said:


> You know, if your goal really is to facilitate classical conversationalism, then following through and joining several other related forums will accomplish exactly that. If you also enjoy leaving and returning, then you can do so several times a day! Hello? Goodbye.


I think I was just frustrated with several things happening on this forum that just agitated me (i. e. the metal threads, political), but I'm over it now.

I think I'm a perfectly sane person for wanting to express my frustrations with everyone. Why should anyone bottle up how they really feel? It doesn't do any good to anyone.

This is how I deal with my own frustrations, I say what I need to say and I feel better. I'm not a perfect person, never claimed to be, I just try and deal with my problems in an honest way.

I hope everybody understands this or at least tries to. You may not like me and that's fine, but as long as you don't like me for the right reasons and not because you're trying to follow what other people are saying.


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## Dim7

But Mirror Image, you have to admit that the forum's most active user abruptly announcing that he will leave the forum immediately and completely for a reason which would more likely just result in gradual decline in activity gives easily the impression that he's just making some kind of experiment how the forum members will react.


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## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> But Mirror Image, you have to admit that the forum's most active user abruptly announcing that he will leave the forum immediately and completely for a reason which would more likely just result in gradual decline in activity gives easily the impression that he's just making some kind of experiment how the forum members will react.


No, I had full intentions of leaving at the time of the initial post, but you have to realize I was upset and blowing off some steam. I decided to return and participate again, because I enjoy being on this forum too much to make a truly foolish decision of leaving.


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## Conservationist

starry said:


> Internet forums are not literally like real life as you compare, they are are areas for discussion and you are with people who you might not get on with in real life.


Internet forums are part of real life, e.g. a subset.

Second, I don't have to talk with everyone. If someone proves themselves to be not ready for discussion, well, there's a lot of things that aren't ILLEGAL but aren't CONSTRUCTIVE either, and so I'll avoid them.

A better real world example might be a drunk bum, a traveling salesman, or anyone else getting ready to spam you with irrelevant stuff. People who show disordered thinking aren't going to fit in every conversation, and so many of us duck the spam.


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## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> I think I was just frustrated with several things happening on this forum that just agitated me (i. e. the metal threads, political), but I'm over it now.


How can anyone be frustrated by the metal threads?

You've already got a pop music forum where people talk about jazz, rock, blues, hip-hop and other popular music.


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## Tapkaara

I feel like a Swiss woodsman who hears the faint chirping of a cuckoo clock in the mountain-laden distance. _Was is das, denn?_


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## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> How can anyone be frustrated by the metal threads?
> 
> You've already got a pop music forum where people talk about jazz, rock, blues, hip-hop and other popular music.


The reason I was frustrated because they're not topics about classical music, but I'm over it, I'm not discussing why I left anymore. I gave my reasons previous posts ago of why I was frustrated.

I wasn't the only person not happy with these types of discussions. Tapkaara made several posts about how he doesn't think metal threads are appropriate for TalkClassical. Jezbo and Bach are also two other members who weren't happy with these discussions either.


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## Scott Good

Wow, this online forum thing can get so weird.

But, I will say that after reading all this, I have new grown respect for MI, even if I do find many of his opinions askew and at times, snobbish. But I never doubted his sincere love of music - not for a second! But beware MI, I will call you on some of your comments! But, isn't this partially the point? To discuss things, and both support and challenge ideas, and perhaps learn something in the process?

That's why I'm here. I hope that isn't obtuse.

And, Tapkaara, I also like the Cannon in D quite a bit - highly underrated by the classical elite. Simply put, it is well constructed and effective. Heck, I like it even without the waves!


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## Tapkaara

Well, I just want to clarify my stance. It's my personal feeling that a sub-forum for metal is personally annoying for me, due to a few reasons:

Metal music has, in reality, little true relationship to classical music as a genre. Both may have long rhetorical exposition and a variety of emotions within one single work, but other than that, what do Bach and Iron Maiden REALLY have in common?

My other reason is that the sub-forum was created for a (primarily) seperate group of people who, largely, contribute nothing or little to the main forum. I can understand the need of a metal sub-forum is Jezbo, Bach, Airad, Tapkaara, Jhar etc. enjoyed such discussions, but we do not, so catering to a smallish,seperate metal group by giving them their own sub-forum on a classical forum just, to me, seems goofy.

I think the Michael Jackson Forum, Jazz forum are more justifiable because they are used by the main members to discus topics that would be otherwise inappropriate in other thread.

But, because these other threads exist, it's hard to "pick and choose" and, thus, what ground does one have to stand on to say "This thread/sub-forum is OK, but this one is not." Not, much ground, I suppose. So, why bother with something that you have no power over?

Long story short, I personally think a metal sub-forum is indulgent and caters to a group who care (for the most part) little about real, substantive discussion on classical music, but it's also wrong to pick and choose what goes and what doesn't so I guess we better keep it.

The best I can do is continue my "Talk Classical" experience without worrying about folks trying to draw links from Vivaldi to Mega Death.

The mods do a good job keeping this place in order and free of nasty members, so I will go wit their good judgement on this.


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## Mirror Image

Scott Good said:


> Wow, this online forum thing can get so weird.
> 
> But, I will say that after reading all this, I have new grown respect for MI, even if I do find many of his opinions askew and at times, snobbish. But I never doubted his sincere love of music - not for a second! But beware MI, I will call you on some of your comments! But, isn't this partially the point? To discuss things, and both support and challenge ideas, and perhaps learn something in the process?
> 
> That's why I'm here. I hope that isn't obtuse.
> 
> And, Tapkaara, I also like the Cannon in D quite a bit - highly underrated by the classical elite. Simply put, it is well constructed and effective. Heck, I like it even without the waves!


Well thank you, Scott Good. I, for one, am glad you're being honest. I think it's great when the members on this forum can just be honest with each other.

Askew and snobbish? Hmmm...I'll try and not be so snobbish, but as for being askew, that's something that's apart of my charm, so I could never give that up.


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## Conservationist

Tapkaara said:


> Long story short, I personally think a metal sub-forum is indulgent and caters to a group who care (for the most part) little about real, substantive discussion on classical music, but it's also wrong to pick and choose what goes and what doesn't so I guess we better keep it.


The admins know this, you may not: 90% minimum of the people involved with a forum post very rarely.

There's a lot of readers, and occasional contributors.

There's also going to be some disagreement on what is "substantive" discussion.

Looks like people are here to enjoy and promote classical music, and the response on the metal forums I posted that screed to has been really positive.


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## Tapkaara

Conservationist said:


> The admins know this, you may not: 90% minimum of the people involved with a forum post very rarely.


Well I am pleased that you and the administrators can share this information with us.



Conservationist said:


> There's also going to be some disagreement on what is "substantive" discussion.


You got that right.


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## Yosser

Cheez guys. I joined this forum because another on which I'd been posting regularly went to hell in a handcart. 

The kiss of death for any forum is when a central topic in a forum is debates about the forum itself. Please, guys, can we get back to music?


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## Scott Good

Mirror Image said:


> but as for being askew, that's something that's apart of my charm, so I could never give that up.


Right on, man!


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## Mirror Image

Scott Good said:


> Right on, man!


Well we all have are little quirks, but I'm seeking serious mental evaluation on mine. I suffer from Ibuytoomuchophobia. It's a real pain in the bank account.


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## Conservationist

Yosser said:


> The kiss of death for any forum is when a central topic in a forum is debates about the forum itself.


Agreed, and all experience agrees with that.

As an addendum: or a central topic regularly involves the personae and not their ideas/acts.


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## starry

Yosser said:


> The kiss of death for any forum is when a central topic in a forum is debates about the forum itself. Please, guys, can we get back to music?


Or maybe when it becomes discussion about the people on the forum when the main aim is not that.


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## vavaving

Or maybeeeee its a discussion about what kind of discussion is not a good discussion for a forum.

_"You want a tattoo of a butt, with a butt shaped tattoo on it? Yeah. And I want it right on my butt." _ ~ Beavis & Butthead


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## starry

vavaving said:


> Or maybeeeee its a discussion about what kind of discussion is not a good discussion for a forum.


I think that was more this thread

http://www.talkclassical.com/5753-seriously-why-sub-forum-4.html#post58490

But I think it's time to move on from this now.


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## Mirror Image

starry said:


> I think that was more this thread
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/5753-seriously-why-sub-forum-4.html#post58490
> 
> But I think it's time to move on from this now.


Yeah, I thought this thread died when I came back why is even still open?


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