# Bach Compared to Vivaldi



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I feel both of these Baroque composers have very distinct ways of composing...Vivaldi is very exciting and keeps you on the edge of your seat, and Bach lets you sit back in your seat and explore the depths of your intellect, spirituality and emotionality.

I love both, very much though! Am I very off in that way of describing their music?


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

No, I don't think you're way off in describing their music this way. I'll add another name, Handel - it always amazes me how three composers, each using the same baroque tropes, can sound so different from one another.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

David Phillips said:


> No, I don't think you're way off in describing their music this way. I'll add another name, Handel - it always amazes me how three composers, each using the same baroque tropes, can sound so different from one another.


How do you describe Handel's music? I have really only heard Messiah and Water Music.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

If there had never been a Vivaldi that would be a shame. But the world would continue much the same as it is now. If there had been no Bach that would be huge tragedy. We would lose one of the three or four absolute greatest, which would be bad enough, but we would also lose all the influence and inspiration that he provided to others. 

Handel is very great and perhaps a better candidate for the "opposite of Bach". Try the Op.6 Concerti Grossi or the short opera, Acis & Galatea, or the late dramatic oratorio, Theodora. Julius Caesar is a powerful opera as well.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I feel both of these Baroque composers have very distinct ways of composing...Vivaldi is very exciting and keeps you on the edge of your seat, and Bach lets you sit back in your seat and explore the depths of your intellect, spirituality and emotionality.
> 
> I love both, very much though! Am I very off in that way of describing their music?


What do you think of the transcriptions that Bach made of Vivaldi's music?


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> What do you think of the transcriptions that Bach made of Vivaldi's music?


Obviously they are skilfully done but the interesting thing is that they were done at all. Bach was German, Lutheran and wrote predominantly sacred music, Vivaldi was Italian, Catholic and wrote mainly secular music. Having said that Bach made keyboard transcriptions of Vivaldi concertos (did he know Vivaldi's sacred music?). Bach also transcribed works by Marcello and Torelli as well as other German composers. Making these transcriptions seems to have been his way of exploring other composers and absorbing their influence.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Biffo said:


> Obviously they are skilfully done but the interesting thing is that they were done at all. Bach was German, Lutheran and wrote predominantly sacred music, Vivaldi was Italian, Catholic and wrote mainly secular music. Having said that Bach made keyboard transcriptions of Vivaldi concertos (did he know Vivaldi's sacred music?). Bach also transcribed works by Marcello and Torelli as well as other German composers. Making these transcriptions seems to have been his way of exploring other composers and absorbing their influence.


Bach's transcriptions were not that exceptional. Other German composers - most notably Bach's relative Johann Gottfried Walther - also transcribed Italian concertos for keyboard at that time.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> What do you think of the transcriptions that Bach made of Vivaldi's music?


I haven't heard them actually!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Biffo said:


> Obviously they are skilfully done but the interesting thing is that they were done at all.


If you can get hold of it look at Chapter 5 of Forkel's biography, where the question you pose is explicitly discussed. I can't copy from my kindle edition but I found part of it online



> Bach's first attempts at composition, like all early efforts, were unsatisfactory. Lacking any special instruction that would have directed him toward a goal, he was compelled to do what he could in his own way, like others who have set out upon such a career without guidance. [...] Bach does not long follow this course. He early sensed that this endless rushing and leaping would lead to nothing. He realized that musical ideas need to be brought into other and logical relationship, and that, to attain this end, one needs a model. Vivaldi's violin concertos, just then being published, gave him the guidance he needed. He so often heard them cited as outstanding compositions that he thereby hit upon the happy idea of transcribing them as a group for the keyboard. Hence he studied the progression of the ideas and their relations, variety in modulation, and many other things. The process of adapting the ideas and phrases that were conceived for the violin and which were note suited to the keyboard taught him to think musically, so that, after completing his work, he no linger had to receive his ideas from his fingers but could draw them from his own imagination


The other obvious reason for transcribing them is just to be able to play them!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I haven't heard them actually!


I'm almost the exact opposite of you, I think the last time I heard the Vivaldi was in 1982, I remember the cassette on the floor of a friend's house, we discussed a project he was engaged on to create a major edition of Thomas Herbert's poetry, which he thought should be printed in a geometric way - the words arranged in squares, triangles etc - because there is (he argued) a connection between the poems' printed forms, and the meaning of shapes in alchemy. Metonymy.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I'm almost the exact opposite of you, I think the last time I heard the Vivaldi was in 1982, I remember the cassette on the floor of a friends house, we discussed a project he was engaged on to create a major edition of Thomas Herbert's poetry.


I'm listening to this now: 



Quite nice.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

George Herbert, not Thomas Herbert!


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

J.S. Bach, Vivaldi and Handel are the three great Baroque composers. Georg Telemann is fourth but is far distant from the big 3 in terms of fan following and the quality of his compositions. 

What I find divides and somewhat characterizes the 3 is the circumstances under which they lived and worked. Bach worked mostly for churches, Vivaldi for a school of girls, and Handel more independently. Handel, born German but more thought of as English, started his career in Italian opera and, when he failed to have lasting success, started writing oratorios.

I think J.S. Bach's only peers are Mozart and Beethoven but I also believe the other two are among the greatest composers ever. Handel finished inside the top 10 in my poll of all composers which was a shock to me. It probably shouldn't have surprised me but it did. Vivaldi finished 24 between Liszt and Vaughan Williams.

I think Bach the greatest of the 3 but not necessarily the easiest to listen to or play. While playing and/or listening to a Brandenburg concerto is sheer joy, singing one of his relatively brief cantatas is a chore for me; his large compositions take months to master. Where he goes into heightened intellectual areas, like the WTC and Art of Fugue, I sometimes thinks he loses his humanity.

To me, Vivaldi is almost always hearable and exciting though often, because of the sheer number of his compositions, not always memorable. His sacred choral music is on par with the other two greats, however, even if it is usually of smaller scale. 

Handel is a bit different insofar as his areas of greatest expertise, Italian opera and oratorio, take a lot of time to hear and perform. His Water Music, Royal Fireworks Music, organ concertos and much of his other more generalized output is always accessible and delightful, however.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have very little Bach, a few Vivaldi pieces, and a lot of Handel. Not sure why, but Bach never appealed to me much.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

*I like the Vivaldi concerto for four violins that Bach arranged for four harpsichords.
I have two recordings - both good:
V. Mullova on Onyx:*









*On this Naxos cd you can hear the original Vivaldi concerto back-to-back with Bach's transcription:
Christine Pilchlmeier and other violinists with Helmut Muller-Bruhl conducting:*


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

> J.S. Bach, Vivaldi and Handel are the three great Baroque composers. Georg Telemann is fourth but is far distant from the big 3 in terms of fan following and the quality of his compositions.


As regards "fan following" how much of that is driven by what is available on radio and in recordings; many of the works have been "done to death" by so much repetition. At times I'm inclined to think "Oh no, not that AGAIN" 
Even within the works of Bach , how many of his over 1,000 works are really well known, and regularly performed/broadcast? BWV 565 probably near the top of the list but BWV582 considerably below and some virtually unknown.
This is not restricted to Baroque, the same can be said of Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mozart, and many others.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Bach is probably the more profound composer, but I enjoy Vivaldi's work a heck of a lot more. Bach's dreary religious mania ruins so much of his output for me, whereas the Catholic priest doesn't let that weigh his compositions down.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

larold said:


> J.S. Bach, Vivaldi and Handel are the three great Baroque composers. Georg Telemann is fourth but is far distant from the big 3 in terms of fan following and the quality of his compositions.


Mmmm... questionable. What about Rameau, among others?


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

For the other complosers it seems to me it's somewhat like a catch 22 situation,
"Nobody likes it cos nobody plays or records it - nobody plays or records it cos nobody likes it"

I'm also reminded of 17th January 2012, 300th anniversary of the birth of John Stanley, not one of his works played on any UK radio station on that day, about once a year one of his 30 voluntaries known as the Trumpet voluntary might be played , (probably because in the dim and distant past some "well known" trumpet player recorded it), come 2015, 75th anniversary of Tchaikovsky's birth and the radio was blathering about it about 10 or more time a day for months.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I once had a discussion with the director of our regional orchestra about why he consistently scheduled Beethoven and/or Brahms on concerts. "Nobody comes if they are not on the program," he said.

He was succeeded by a younger conductor who programmed more adventurous fare. Audiences shrunk by one-third to one-half.

I like Johann Piesendel, a Baroque composer, but if they scheduled him no one would show up either. There are reasons lesser composers don't get recorded or programmed in concert compared to those that are better -- people won't pay to hear them.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I found that they often slip in those lesser or more obscure composers in front of the main event, which is Beethoven etc. so that people will be subject to hearing it even if they only came for Beethoven. Irritating in some respects.


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

> I found that they often slip in those lesser or more obscure composers in front of the main event, which is Beethoven etc. so that people will be subject to hearing it even if they only came for Beethoven. Irritating in some respects.


But if they don't include one or two* lesser known *,( not necesarily lesser composers) composers in each concert people can never hear what they are missing; even if only a few are tempted to sample more of the lesser known then something has been achieved.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I think they can hear it/them … on the radio, by buying CDs, on YouTube, on streams, there are plenty of ways. It doesn't have to be through concertizing.

There is a 2 percent equation for this anyway. In sports, movies and concerts the 2 percent rule says 2 percent of people hear/see it "live" and the rest via television, streaming, DVD/CD etc.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I enjoy listening to Vivaldi on occasion. He has written some fine music, including an A minor Violin Concerto which remains one of my favorite works. 

I enjoy much Baroque music by lesser known composers, as well as the music by the great Handel and the interesting and prolific Telemann.

As for J.S. Bach? I cannot imagine life without this master's music in my ears, heart, bones and soul.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> I enjoy listening to Vivaldi on occasion. He has written some fine music, including an A minor Violin Concerto which remains one of my favorite works.
> 
> I enjoy much Baroque music by lesser known composers, as well as the music by the great Handel and the interesting and prolific Telemann.
> 
> As for J.S. Bach? I cannot imagine life without this master's music in my ears, heart, bones and soul.


In a similar vein, I used to be anti-baroque completely, now I can't imagine my life w/o some Baroque in there! I've said this before, but I find the Classical/Baroque eras to be more spiritual and godly, where I find the Romantic Era more imperfect and filled with human drama.

I love both, very much.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> In a similar vein, I used to be anti-baroque completely, now I can't imagine my life w/o some Baroque in there! I've said this before, but I find the Classical/Baroque eras to be more spiritual and godly, where I find the Romantic Era more imperfect and filled with human drama.
> 
> I love both, very much.


Well.... that's a very Romantic view of the eras. For instance I think people like Brahms and Mendelssohn has very classical approaches to a romantic style... but that doesnt necesssarily mean they were going for Spiritual and godly music... quite the contrary sometimes. Same goes for many baroque composers. Pieces like st. Matthew passion, St. John passion and mass in b minor convey a sense of spirituality but also bring us passages and themes of immense suffering and drama. Many baroque operas and choral works are like this too. The music stylistically is different but I think for each era many composers bring spirituality and drama into their music... so I don't really think the eras can be defined like that.


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## Albert Berry (Oct 5, 2018)

I am a complete baroque nut, fitting for a wannabe organist, but do not turn up my nose at modern "classical" music. Of all the trumpets marches, I have used Stephen H. Best's "A Celebration Fanfare" to good effect in a wedding a bit over a year ago. I had to squeeze something onto a Hammond C3 and it was workable.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I love & revere Bach, but Vivaldi gets my pulse racing.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Vivaldi's music does often keep me on the edge of my seat as I ponder getting up to shut him off.


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## Steve Mc (Jun 14, 2018)

For me, Vivaldi is underrated. A bit repetitive at times, but never boring.

But Bach will always reign supreme. A genius for all eras.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Vivaldi's music does often keep me on the edge of my seat as I ponder getting up to shut him off.


haha, to each their own good sir!  I do love Vivaldi, there is a richness to it that really pulls me in.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

I do like Vivaldi, I must say. A lot of his music is genuinely exciting. You can tell he's trying to both impress and suck you in, and that creates a connection to him that I feel with few other composers. There is some Bach I really like, but a lot of it feels very theoretical; as though he's writing music about music. That aspect of Bach is awfully clever but it needs to be listened to in a different way to most music and I'm usually not in the mood.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

J.S. Bach for sure, although I really like Vivaldi too, however the latter doesn't get much play time by me of late. When I find I'm in the mood for Italian Baroque nowadays I generally listen to Monteverdi.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Before you can compare Bach and Vivaldi, you've got to hear the right Vivaldi:










In my opinion, Bach was more harmonically advanced, but Vivaldi's music, when played right, is almost as good. A lot of his later violin concertos were unrecorded until this release.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

For me, all three are equals from almost exactly the same period and dates. The Bach and Handel comparison is the more intriguing, with both being (basically) German composers. I’d decribe Bach as mechanical and chromatic, and Handel as lyrical and melodic. Vivaldi somewhat in his own league, but a bit more like Handel.


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

I find Vivaldi to be better than Bach. 

Vivaldi is my best for Baroque Area. As for Bach, he is my second best after Vivaldi.

Third best for Barıqoe Area? There is no third best for me because anybody else is far away from these 2 composers.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What little listening I have done of each (choral works), I lean towards Vivaldi.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Just take a look at Vivaldi's four seasons and Bach's violin concertos (especially the 2nd), same genre, same general structure (such as the beginning ritornello movement), but vastly different degrees of structural design and development of materials.


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## PeterAccettola (Jun 5, 2021)

Music is a very personal experience and we all have unique responses for our own reasons.
No you are not off.
I love many of Vivaldi's works, but Bach is, I feel, on a more profound level.
Just to take his keyboard pieces, say the Partitas, oh my ! The beauty and energy of his counterpoint and voicing just transports me to somewhere else.
It is actually a spiritual experience for me in some ways. At those times I feel that he has completely transcended the boundaries of what we normally think of as composition and point of reference, and moved on to a different plane, so free and graceful.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

To me Bach's music is far richer and more subtle. Vivaldi seems to me to paint in primary colours only. Nothing wrong with that in itself. but in my experience the scope and variety of Bach's music is light years ahead. Vivaldi isn't even my favourite Italian Baroque composer - I get a lot more enjoyment from Albinoni's output, which comes across to me as much classier and more polished.


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