# Does Western classical music appropriate other cultures?



## brucknerian (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm thinking on one example to get started: the timpani / kettledrums. Apparently they originate from Turkey.

Can anyone thing of anything in the Western classical tradition that is actually in any way "authentically" Western, if such a thing was possible?


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Is using a foreign instrument appropriation? *shrugs*

Anyway, the oldest known polyphony is European, I believe. I might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that polyphony was uniquely European, and that combined with music notation was the root of all European music


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I would reserve the term "appropriation" for cases where another culture is reduced to a signifier or kitschified - though it can be hard to draw a sharp line.

The natural exchange of musical ideas, techniques, instruments, etc between cultures is not appropriation and indeed could not be prevented even if one tried.


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## brucknerian (Dec 27, 2013)

Hmm you seem to have a point there, isorhythm.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

isorhythm said:


> I would reserve the term "appropriation" for cases where another culture is reduced to a signifier or kitschified - though it can be hard to draw a sharp line.


In even more strict terms, appropriation was, I believe, a term originally reserved for when a nation or group oppressing another nation or group turned around and used that group's culture to their benefit. i.e When Britain made India its colony (and treated them like crap) and then sold "Indian stuff" in to people in their own country. Of course, this is probably inevitable, but it is kinda effed up when you think about it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Brief research into Wikipedia tells me the organ may have originated in ancient Greece. That seems fairly Western enough to me, but if not, surely the harpsichord and piano are authentically Western.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

Did Jazz appropriate classical then?
Can someone please appropriate the bassoon 
and give it life in some genre?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kartikeys said:


> Did Jazz appropriate classical then?
> Can someone please appropriate the bassoon
> and give it life in some genre?


I've read that it's difficult to swing on a bassoon... but don't ask me why.
https://books.google.it/books?id=n9h21q8p-QcC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=alec+wilder+octet+bassoon&source=bl&ots=AmWXYhmary&sig=R3PsbfWLcJtgaUfrbeOEAheI_6o&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo9P7P1v7LAhWB2xoKHY5DAscQ6AEIRTAF#v=onepage&q=alec%20wilder%20octet%20bassoon&f=false


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Progressive rock / folk band Gryphon used bassoon and also crumhorn and recorders mixed with the usual rock instruments. They were well known to prog fans for about ten minutes in 1974 or so.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

brucknerian said:


> Can anyone thing of anything in the Western classical tradition that is actually in any way "authentically" Western, if such a thing was possible?


Tonality. Specifically, major/minor triadic harmony and harmonic progression. Appropriated by non-Western cultures in their popular music. The pop musics of India, Japan, China, Africa and the Middle East have, though retaining some local and national characteristics, taken harmony from Western pop music. Harmony which it shares with classical music and which was born in the monasteries of Europe.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

brucknerian said:


> Can anyone thing of anything in the Western classical tradition that is actually in any way "authentically" Western, if such a thing was possible?


The pipe organ; the vibraphone; the ondes martenot; polyphony; fugue; common practice harmony; the waltz; the symphony; the concerto; opera; the sonata.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Cosmos said:


> Anyway, the oldest known polyphony is European, I believe. I might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that polyphony was uniquely European, and that combined with music notation was the root of all European music


Do you think you can remember where you read that? Given the numerous polyphonic styles of folk music all over the world - African polyphonies, Russian polyphonies, and so on - it's hard to believe that Europeans were the frist to think of the idea.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

kartikeys said:


> Did Jazz appropriate classical then?
> Can someone please appropriate the bassoon
> and give it life in some genre?


I don't know about appropriate, but jazz players in Paris from the 1920s on picked up a lot about extended tertian harmony from Debussy, Ravel, et alia.

The bassoon was used pretty extensively (and annoyingly) by Henry Cow, sometimes electrified. It was Frank Zappa's favorite wind instrument and he used it a lot too.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

The Greeks took a lot from Egypt and Asia and made it their own.

Messiaen, following Stravinsky and Bartok, famously took elements from many cultures plus bird song and molded them to fit his modes.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

When I think of "apropriation" of musical instruments and "authentically" western instruments, my mind subconsciously thought of the use of cannons in Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. Curious, that.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

There is nothing more authentic than appropriation, I think. Cf. Harold Bloom: _The Anxiety of Influence._


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Weston said:


> Progressive rock / folk band Gryphon used bassoon and also crumhorn and recorders mixed with the usual rock instruments. They were well known to prog fans for about ten minutes in 1974 or so.


In that 10 minutes I saw them! (supporting Yes).


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Western music has been colonized by Russian classical music and black American popular music.


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