# The Szymanowski, RVW, Ravel connections as based on SZY's sym 3



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I am short on time right now, but as I just clicked off this YT sym 3, I know very well what I heard just , now I can see where Ravel had some inspiration for Daphne. Now who borrowed from who, RVW, Ravel, Szymanowski. There are connective sounds I note in all 3 composers, all composing near the same time.

Ck out the opinion of the YT uploader, *finest record of the greatest 20TH C sym*. 
Yet everyone new to classical asks , Who is this Szymanowski composer?*
I know myself , after 35 yrs in classical had somehow or other overlooked Szymanowski and , was asking this same Q, just a few months ago.

And I thought one of my favs was the most forgotten, but he has not been around nearly as long as has Szymanowski. 
I always felt it was Ravel of all composers who has never been given the proper recognition of his genius,,i am adding Szymanowski to that short list, and may , 
yes indeed place Szymanowski above the sadly neglected Ravel. , moreso.

Any ideas on how the 3 influenced each other in the early part of the 20th C?
IOW who was borrowing ideas from who?
Or do you hear all 3 as unique stylists, independent from each other?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I can't comment on where Szymanowski got his ideas from but I believe Vaughan Williams studied with Ravel.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I can't comment on where Szymanowski got his ideas from but I believe Vaughan Williams studied with Ravel.


yes
And if I recall correctly somewhere in one of ravel's masterpieces, there isa short incredibly beautiful passage, just ina burst of seconds, comes and is ,,,gone,,where I think, but not sure as I can 't recall exactly where that miniscule passage is located...where possible just from that speck of beauty, perhaps RVW picked up on it, and took it with him to work up his incredibly, UNREAL great 5th sym. 
Although RVW dedicated that sym to his Finnish friend Sibelius, , perhaps he should have presented that honor to Ravel, 
I suspect maybe RVW knew Sibelius was struggling with some depression, so he wished to cheer up his old friend.

Neither composer borrow/stole as some other modern composers have done. I am thinking of Hovhaness , Langaard, perhaps also Rautvaara, yes definitely Rautavaara , his music is like themes and variations based on Sibelius.

A lot of british, scandanavian composers copied RVW and Sibelius, Its OK to borrow, but please give back with some interest on the loans. .


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yet another composer who copied heavy was Kalabis,,,but wait,,,just got back now from cking out one of the YT uploads,,,seems I missed this 2nd sym, as one YT post mentions this 2nd sy is his magnus opus,,and skipping through,,indeed, I will certainly order that cd today...I heard other of Viktor's works, and surely seemed familiar with other composers I know..But then along comes this 2nd sym, which surely is a astonishing fresh unique work.

If he had borrowed, even right out stolen from other great masters, all is forgivable with his 2nd sym. 
Just the clips alone are stunning at every hit.

If this thread is good for anything, it has brought me to a composer I chucked off recently as a copy cat. 
man, amazing how we come across incredible works, otherwise we may have mssed. Just unreal how things all work out.
back to topic at hand please,

Who more influenced who, Well we know RVW studied some months with the great great impressionistic master. I guess Szymanowski influences are from Mahler, Scriabin perhaps. Not sure.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I hear similarities to Daphnis and Chloe in this music as well, especially in the first section.

I've also thought of him as a latter day admirer of Richard Strauss and this confirms that too.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

larold said:


> I hear similarities to Daphnis and Chloe in this music as well, especially in the first section.
> 
> I've also thought of him as a latter day admirer of Richard Strauss and this confirms that too.


Amazing that all 3 were composing masterworks near the exact time frame. Kind of like the relationship between Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, also between Grieg, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev's , all three composers 1st piano concerto,. Each has that same youthful, nostalgic , folk flare. 
I love all 3, , but I would have to say it is the Rachmaninov 1st which gets to me more than Prokofiev's 1st.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

On what VW learned from Ravel... and it was a great deal: 
https://amp.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/feb/28/ravel-vaughan-williams-friendship-radio3-ravel-day

"You can hear the influence of Ravel's teaching and his music in the clarity and economy of the Pastoral Symphony and the Fifth Symphony, and in general, in the new confidence in his own style that VW found in his music."

He also gained a certain polish in his orchestrations.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Szymanowski became aware of the music of Stravinsky in 1913, and around the same time that of Debussy and Ravel. His initial models where Chopin, Wagner and Strauss. Song of the Night is typical of his sound world, delicate and passionate. His music is like a bridge between late romanticism and modernism. The late pieces such as Harnasie (a ballet, with vocal component), the Symphony No. 4 (with piano solo) and the Violin Concerto No. 2 add the roughness and vigour of folk music. The succeeding generation of Polish composers, Penderecki and Lutoslawski among them, acknowledged his influence.


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