# Increase in under-35 classical music listening



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

According to the _Toronto Star_, August 15, 2017 more young people are listening to classical music. Classical-type music of movies and video games is attracting young people. Britain's _Classic FM_, the world's largest classical station, reports a surge in listeners under 35 this year. In that demographic group listeners to Toronto's _New Classical 96.1 FM _ have increased by 42% over the past two years.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Good to know! All the old classical music fuddy duddies are dying off.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Not exactly noticeable in Sweden: here the majority of classical music audiences seem to be on the verge of death and about as old as the composers themselves.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Roger Knox said:


> Classical-type music of movies and video games is attracting young people.


but it isn't classical music.



Roger Knox said:


> Britain's _Classic FM_, the world's largest classical station,


i stopped listening to it when their playlist began to include hollywood music etc.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Roger Knox said:


> According to the _Toronto Star_, August 15, 2017 more young people are listening to classical music. Classical-type music of movies and video games is attracting young people. Britain's _Classic FM_, the world's largest classical station, reports a surge in listeners under 35 this year. In that demographic group listeners to Toronto's _New Classical 96.1 FM _ have increased by 42% over the past two years.


Alas not every country is the same, must say the audience getting younger in our local concert building. 
( Except for the Sunday matinee)


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I've been doing a bit more reading around this, specifically on the UK's Classic FM. Video game music has started to show up in their annual "Hall of Fame" in recent years, and I've thought it might be partly the result of a dedicated effort to mess up the poll - in much the way as the time when an Irish rebel song was named the "world's favourite song" in a BBC poll some years ago.

Stats about the 2015 Hall of Fame (http://www.classicfm.com/radio/hall-of-fame/2015/facts-statistics/age-range/) show that about one-fifth of the 64,310 voters were under 35. And the top 10 pieces for those voters included 7 pieces of video game music and 1 soundtrack (_The Planets_ and Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto were the other two). So it could well have been a campaign by gamers. But the latest official listening figures (http://www.classicfm.com/music-news/huge-increase-in-under-35-listeners-for-classic-fm/), as mentioned by the OP, indicate that one-fifth of Classic FM's listeners are indeed under 35. Presumably these listeners must have some interest in classical music generally, because that's still the great bulk of the station's output.

We may be seeing a change in _the general public's_ perception of what should be called "classical music".


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't know what to make of this. In general a lot of people, even those who don't listen to classical music as a rule, tend to like and enjoy popular classics. A friend of mine who runs a bicycle repair/sales shop has classic FM (Dutch) on in the shop and his co-workers have learned to enjoy it, even the younger ones, though I've sometimes seen them swap stations when he goes out.

Britain's Classic FM is not very good in my opinion. I used to listen to it when I still lived in England, but it's now a loop of abysmally safe classics, not even as good as the BBC's old 'light music' programming. Even Charlotte Green's dulcet tones don't improve it. I can't imagine people listening to this, young or old, except for a bet.

BBC Radio 3 would seem a better barometer of listening demographics, but I have no statistics either way. They play a much wider range.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Classic FM just play the old favourites on repeat, as Mr. Onegin above states. Radio 3 has a variety of different shows which you can get on podcast form - I often listen to the great Record Review on Saturday where they choose a work and go through all the great recordings to find the best for your collection. 

Classic FM is the designated station for people who aren't really interested in classical and just think its music for relaxing to.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Even if this statistic is deeply flawed, I think any exposure to orchestral instruments and sounds is a positive for the classical music world. If that happens to come in the arena of video games or movies, I'm good with that.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's always great to hear that younger folks are getting into classical music. They will discover one of life's most satisfying pleasures.

When I was just a kid, practically all my relatives were into classical music. Classical commercial radio stations abounded. It was only natural that my cousins and I would get into classical music, to various degrees.

But then again, it was a golden age of culture in general. Playhouse 90. Live performances on television of the caliber of Arthur Miller's "Death of A Salesman", every week!!! etc; Terrific debate shows on television: William F. Buckley; David Susskind; etc.

Fast forward to today's television: "America's Got Talent"; "Dancing With the Stars". Where's the culture?

I hope the younger set getting involved with great music is a new trend, away from all the vapidness.


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## WVdave (Jun 18, 2017)

Totally agree on the BBC Radio 3 Record Review program -- here's the link to all of the archived shows, if you want to give it a listen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06w2121/episodes/guide


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

WVdave said:


> Totally agree on the BBC Radio 3 Record Review program -- here's the link to all of the archived shows, if you want to give it a listen.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06w2121/episodes/guide


Probably the best classical music show I've found. Great depth of analysis and a great way to discover new music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> But then again, it was a golden age of culture in general. Playhouse 90. Live performances on television of the caliber of Arthur Miller's "Death of A Salesman", every week!!! etc; Terrific debate shows on television: William F. Buckley; David Susskind; etc.
> 
> Fast forward to today's television: "America's Got Talent"; "Dancing With the Stars". Where's the culture?
> 
> I hope the younger set getting involved with great music is a new trend, away from all the vapidness.


William F Buckley Jr seemed to me like merely an articulate twit.

From a specifically media perspective the deterioration probably began when financial returns became the sole important factor. Public service broadcasting has been almost smothered under commercial interests and have to offer a large amount of the same televisual tripe just to get audience share. Commercial productions and broadcasting seems to have become risk averse from an artistic point of view, instead plumping for safe programming that guarantees viewers and financial returns.

A large number of people actively or tacitly support the system that allows this to happen though, so I have little sympathy with their complaints.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

hpowders said:


> It's always great to hear that younger folks are getting into classical music. They will discover one of life's most satisfying pleasures.
> 
> When I was just a kid, practically all my relatives were into classical music. Classical commercial radio stations abounded. It was only natural that my cousins and I would get into classical music, to various degrees.
> 
> ...


Fwiw I do think there are more under 40s listening to CM. We have a Saturday night series to the Chicago Symphony and it no longer resembles a well heeled geriatric ward. My own kids and their friends have taken up some degree of interest. The Public Radio station now features segments on CM with millennial presenters that spew references to pop culture that completely pass me by. I personally don't care if the gateway is video games, television commercials, movie soundtracks, whatever. After feeling like an endangered species, it's nice to see the upsurge.
And more to the point of H Powders post, the upsurge seems to accompany upsurges in other quality entertainment ( i.e., "culture"). Who would have thought that Jane Austen would still be selling books. Or Dickens. How many Film Festivals are there?
In Chicago our Shakespeare theatre routinely sells out and again with the crowds getting progressively younger. 
I don't think that the current wave of interest will ever be a tsunami, but the whole picture shows that quality can always make itself known, even when our commercially oriented society tries to submerge it in manure


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Triplets said:


> I don't think that the current wave of interest will ever be a tsunami, but the whole picture shows that quality can always make itself known, even when our commercially oriented society tries to submerge it in manure


_... you can't fool all of the people all of the time._

-- distinguished American president


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Not exactly noticeable in Sweden: here the majority of classical music audiences seem to be on the verge of death and about as old as the composers themselves.


You could do as I did and go to a Contemporary Classical concert, I found that most of the audience was in their 20s, 30s and 40s, rather than dessicated corpses.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> You could do as I did and go to a Contemporary Classical concert, I found that most of the audience was in their 20s, 30s and 40s, rather than dessicated corpses.


No, I could not and I would not ever do that to myself, but classical concerts sometimes feature an occasional modernist abomination with similar audiences.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> William F Buckley Jr seemed to me like merely an articulate twit.


Yep, his background and Atlantic accent gave him an air of sophistication, when in fact he had no truly great insight or intellect.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> No, I could not and I would not ever do that to myself, but classical concerts sometimes feature an occasional modernist abomination with similar audiences.


Your loss, then.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> Your loss, then.


Like the loss of a rotten tooth.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Like the loss of a rotten tooth.


More like not having an upper front tooth. These medical analogies are always so nice.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> More like not having an upper front tooth. These medical analogies are always so nice.


At least I didn't steal someone else's analogy.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> At least I didn't steal someone else's analogy.


These are low-level posts anyway so I don't care.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> These are low-level posts anyway so I don't care.


My posts are never low-level; yours, on the other hand...


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> My posts are never low-level


200 posts in less than a month and not a single low-level one would be quite an achievement indeed, but I only read a few and those seem to outnumber the good contributions by a decent margin.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> 200 posts in less than a month and not a single low-level one would be quite an achievement indeed, but I only read a few and those seem to outnumber the good contributions by a decent margin.


You must have me mixed up with someone else, perhaps yourself.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> You must have me mixed up with someone else, perhaps yourself.


Certainly not, I know which posts of mine are low-level. I'm sure you'll figure it out.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> Certainly not, I know which posts of mine are low-level. I'm sure you'll figure it out.


I most definitely have.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> I most definitely have.


As long as I get the last word in...it's a definite maybe I say.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> As long as I get the last word in...it's a definite maybe I say.


Sure then: let's settle it.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

First person to correctly use the phrase "I know you are, but what am I?" wins it!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> I don't know what to make of this. In general a lot of people, even those who don't listen to classical music as a rule, tend to like and enjoy popular classics. A friend of mine who runs a bicycle repair/sales shop has classic FM (Dutch) on in the shop and his co-workers have learned to enjoy it, even the younger ones, though I've sometimes seen them swap stations when he goes out.
> 
> Britain's Classic FM is not very good in my opinion. I used to listen to it when I still lived in England, but it's now a loop of abysmally safe classics, not even as good as the BBC's old 'light music' programming. Even Charlotte Green's dulcet tones don't improve it. I can't imagine people listening to this, young or old, except for a bet.
> 
> BBC Radio 3 would seem a better barometer of listening demographics, but I have no statistics either way. They play a much wider range.


Classic FM is certainly aimed the general MOR listening public and is deadly dull and repetitive. If I hear an excerpt from Scheherazade once more I shall scream and scream until I'm sick. (_pace_ Violet Elizabeth)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> *William F Buckley Jr seemed to me like merely an articulate twit.*
> 
> From a specifically media perspective the deterioration probably began when financial returns became the sole important factor. Public service broadcasting has been almost smothered under commercial interests and have to offer a large amount of the same televisual tripe just to get audience share. Commercial productions and broadcasting seems to have become risk averse from an artistic point of view, instead plumping for safe programming that guarantees viewers and financial returns.
> 
> A large number of people actively or tacitly support the system that allows this to happen though, so I have little sympathy with their complaints.


The point of my post is not whether you should have liked William F. Buckley Jr.

It was an indication of the intellectual choices we had on television, which we no longer have.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Triplets said:


> Fwiw I do think there are more under 40s listening to CM. We have a Saturday night series to the Chicago Symphony and it no longer resembles a well heeled geriatric ward. My own kids and their friends have taken up some degree of interest. The Public Radio station now features segments on CM with millennial presenters that spew references to pop culture that completely pass me by. I personally don't care if the gateway is video games, television commercials, movie soundtracks, whatever. After feeling like an endangered species, it's nice to see the upsurge.
> And more to the point of H Powders post, the upsurge seems to accompany upsurges in other quality entertainment ( i.e., "culture"). Who would have thought that Jane Austen would still be selling books. Or Dickens. How many Film Festivals are there?
> In Chicago our Shakespeare theatre routinely sells out and again with the crowds getting progressively younger.
> I don't think that the current wave of interest will ever be a tsunami, but the whole picture shows that quality can always make itself known, even when our commercially oriented society tries to submerge it in manure


Let's just hope it's a trend, because many of the reliable patrons of the arts are dying off. Who will replace them?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> The point of my post is not whether you should have liked William F. Buckley Jr.
> 
> It was an indication of the intellectual choices we had on television, which we no longer have.


Yes, I know. I'm not going against that. I agree that the intellectual choices seem to have disappeared.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Yes, I know. I'm not going against that. I agree that the intellectual choices seem to have disappeared.


A reflection of the year 2017 dumbed down culture in the US: A President who never reads, always watches TV; Speaking of TV: Most popular programs are: Dancing With the Stars; America's Got Talent (highly debateable), etc; No wonder classical music is dying in the US. A bunch of cretins!!

Any time the US government needs money, the first thing that gets cut is "The Arts". They hardly subsidize art and music as it is. Pretty soon, I wouldn't be surprised if Public Television and Public Radio become obsolete-the last vestige of US culture for many of us.

I need a one way ticket to Vienna, where the arts are respected.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Any time the US government needs money, the first thing that gets cut is "The Arts". They hardly subsidize art and music as it is. Pretty soon, I wouldn't be surprised if Public Television and Public Radio become obsolete-the last vestige of US culture for many of us.
> 
> I need a one way ticket to Vienna, where the arts are respected.


Just don't try to use _my _tax money for your elitist entertainments! I need that dough for tickets to rap concerts! Have you seen what those tickets cost??? Now _there's _an area ripe for subsidy, and a lot more people would benefit.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> First person to correctly use the phrase "I know you are, but what am I?" wins it!


Well, while they're completely distracted, I'll dive in for the win:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Since no one bothered to post the original Toronto Star story, here it is: https://www.thestar.com/entertainme...-lure-young-listeners-to-classical-music.html

As I read it, it sounds more like the concept of classical music is being expanded to include video game and film music than a newer generation of listeners is coming to it. Anything that brings younger people to classical music is good though this form of expansion isn't new. Film music is probably the most popular entrée to "classical" or "serious" music for a lot of people and has been for much of the generations. It was far more prevalent a lifetime ago. The 1951 film "People Will Talk" used Wagner's Meistersinger overture and a sung version of Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture." Later generations were invited to/exposed to classical music by popular music groups or singers doing contemporary versions of classical music ... Emerson, Lake and Palmer doing "Pictures At An Exhibition" being a notable one. Popular songs like "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" based on a Chopin tune is another.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Classic FM is certainly aimed the general MOR listening public and is deadly dull and repetitive. If I hear an excerpt from Scheherazade once more I shall scream and scream until I'm sick. (_pace_ Violet Elizabeth)


While BBC Radio 3 is aimed at music snobs and is also deadly dull. If I hear another excerpt from an obscure Handel opera I shall scream and scream until I'm sick. Better to stick to Spotify or your CD collection, then you can control what you listen to.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

larold said:


> As I read it, it sounds more like the concept of classical music is being expanded to include video game and film music than a newer generation of listeners is coming to it. Anything that brings younger people to classical music is good though this form of expansion isn't new. Film music is probably the most popular entrée to "classical" or "serious" music for a lot of people and has been for much of the generations.


It might be worth pointing out here, too, that although for many people "proper" classical music means the 18th and 19th centuries (and maybe a bit from the 20th if they're feeling generous), the concept is already stretched so wide as to include such diverse genres as Gregorian chant and Renaissance dance music. Classical's ancestors can be respected at a distance, but the question seems to be, how many of its descendants will still be considered to be part of the family?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't listen to Classic FM, but I'm surprised that so many people throw shade at it. Sure, most people here may prefer a wider variety of music because they have heard the standards many times. Most classical music listeners presumably have heard much less and may prefer listening to classics they already adore or works that are similar. I assume Classic FM plays a selection of wonderful classical music, and I would say that's great for many listeners.

My daughter just played a concert where all the music was from video games. She doesn't care that some view video game music as not classical. She just wants to play good music whether old classical, modern/contemporary classical, video game, or movie.


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

I think one should take the claim that interest in classical music among youngsters increases with a grain of salt. When I go to a classical concert I see almost only old people and a few youngsters who obviously belong to the 'elite' so had an education which involved classical music and probably had to take piano or violin lessons so are familiar with this type of music.

You hear the same thing about philosophy: it's popularity would increase every year (because more books are sold etc). But that's nonsense too. I think popularity of serious matters like philosophy and classical music seem to increase because everything is more accessible/available nowadays so more people stumble upon it and give it a try. But I think the number of aficionados is decreasing instead of increasing.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Agamemnon said:


> I think one should take the claim that interest in classical music among youngsters increases with a grain of salt. When I go to a classical concert I see almost only old people and a few youngsters who obviously belong to the 'elite' so had an education which involved classical music and probably had to take piano or violin lessons so are familiar with this type of music.


But why would thousands of people suddenly start to lie to different market researchers in different countries about their radio listening habits?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> but it isn't classical music.
> 
> i stopped listening to it when their playlist began to include hollywood music etc.


yawn...

-------------------


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Wait a minute!!! the Toronto Star "reports a surge". How would they know? They sent a questionnaire to everyone in Toronto, under 35 years old?

I have to revise my initial reaction of "delighted" to "skeptical".

Any "evidence" they have must be considered to be "anecdotal" and hence cannot be taken seriously as a "research study".

Not to be taken seriously.

I place this one in the "wishful thinking" category.


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> But why would thousands of people suddenly start to lie to different market researchers in different countries about their radio listening habits?


I don't know. 

But like I suggested: my impression is that the 'consumption' has become more diverse (parallel to having only one TV-channel many years ago compared to +50 nowadays). Where people lived in a monoculture before, the world has opened up for them so people listen to all kinds of music now, including classical music. But I am sceptical if one claims that classical music has more aficionados than before.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

*Using "Classical" for movie and video game music*

I'll take responsibility for only posting a summary and not the link to the original story, are mentioned by *larold*. Both the newspaper and ClassicFM, etc. are using "Classical" for movie and video game music now. It does bother me if people are misled by the terms are being used. But I hope there is some lead-in of young people towards classical music itself -- it seems plausible and if there's any evidence of that I'd love to know...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would LOVE for the conclusion to be true. Old fuddie duddies will need to be replaced.


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