# A Dislike Of The Operatic Repertoire In General



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Here is a passage from Dominique Jameux's biography of Pierre Boulez:



> *While Boulez does not like opera as an institution he has a high regard for particular operas: Pelleas et Melisande, Lulu, Wozzeck, Moses and Aron, Bluebeard's Castle, some Wagner (from the Ring onwards, and with a further weakness for Meistersinger which he says he will never conduct), Boris Godunov, Don Giovanni and that is all. No Strauss, not even Elektra, not the Mozart of Die Zauberflote, or the bitter-sweet comedies, obviously nothing Italian, nothing of the 19th century French apart from Berlioz - and certainly not the would-be moderns of the 20th century like Henze, Menotti, Zimmermann or others.
> 
> In fact he does not appear to like the operatic genre, the opera establishment, the opera audience or the operatic repertoire in general. He seems repelled by the second-hand emotions of this composite, debased, almost confused world where human tensions are both exacerbated and shallow, and where music has always to compromise with theatrical exigencies. *




Question:

1. Have you ever met anyone who holds similar views about the art form? I mean someone with very particular tastes who remains indifferent to much of the standard repertory AND who cares very little about the role of directors.

Regarding the second part a friend sent me this:



> *"Theatrical contingencies": that's exactly the phrase I have been looking for to express the contempt I have for anything that interferes with the primacy of music, on stage or off. Would anyone care to name a single opera libretto they would rather see performed without its music? I mean "rather", not just as a one time "curiosity", but as a satisfactory alternative, in the sense that a concert performance of an opera can be a totally satisfactory alternative.*



And then he reiterated:



> *Just as no opera exists as music alone, most of them can be experienced and fully enjoyed without, to coin M. Boulez' beautiful and useful phrase, "theatrical contingencies". A fully staged, action packed performance of your typical libretto without music, on the other hand, is just about unthinkable, except as a mild curiosity.*


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I can actually think of many operas I would prefer to see performed without the music. Mostly operas of the modern variety, which work wonderfully as operas but for which the composer seems to have had no respect for what audiences want to hear. I loved the Nose, which I saw at the Met a couple of seasons back; but I remember thinking afterwards how nice it would have been if some music had been composed for it. Absolutely it would have been a more enjoyable performance without the "music." I just finished listening to the first CD of Die Frau ohne Schatten, and honestly, it's such an affecting libretto, but the music, my god. I just can't take it. If they would perform it without the music I for one would give thanks.


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I just finished listening to the first CD of Die Frau ohne Schatten, and honestly, it's such an affecting libretto, but the music, my god. I just can't take it. If they would perform it without the music I for one would give thanks.


As an aside:

Huh?

_Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ is probably my favorite Strauss work.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

imo, most of Strauss works with or without the music but then I kind of worship Hoffmannstahl. A clear one is Cunning little Vixen - I love the libretto but the music not so much.

I don't get the comment about "second hand emotions". What are love, loss, revenge, betrayal, deceit, lust for power and regular lust second hand to?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

deggial said:


> I don't get the comment about "second hand emotions". What are love, loss, revenge, betrayal, deceit, lust for power and regular lust second hand to?


He means that they are expressions of the experience of emotion rather than the emotions themselves (and hence "at a remove"). I don't necessarily agree with him on this point, mind you.



Deggial said:


> A clear one is Cunning little Vixen - I love the libretto but the music not so much.


I'm not overly familiar with them, but Janacek's operas tend to divide listeners.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

the opera is like football - a religion that does not guarantee you anything, whatever names and expectations involved in it.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I just finished listening to the first CD of Die Frau ohne Schatten, and honestly, it's such an affecting libretto, but the music, my god. I just can't take it


its conductors' fault because they won't understand Strauss can not be played just as the score puts it. Strauss' should be first taken apart and then figured out what in his is primary and what secondary, otherwise we end up getting a strident din instead of beautiful music.


----------



## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

May be he just like his music in a more abstract form. No cheap thrill from libretto or storyline to give away the emotion.
At least most of his choices of his preferred operas seemed to be work that have more ambitious orchestral component and not
where lyrics and melody dominates while the orchestra are just mere accompaniment. I am surprised though that R. Strauss is not on his list as well. I seems that Elektra, Salome, Die Frau would also fit his bill. Interesting though that Don Giovanni made his list.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Still one more reason to dislike Boulez.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

suteetat said:


> May be he just like his music in a more abstract form. No cheap thrill from libretto or storyline to give away the emotion.
> At least most of his choices of his preferred operas seemed to be work that have more ambitious orchestral component and not
> where lyrics and melody dominates while the orchestra are just mere accompaniment. I am surprised though that R. Strauss is not on his list as well. I seems that Elektra, Salome, Die Frau would also fit his bill. Interesting though that Don Giovanni made his list.


Judging by my reactions to most of what he's done I would prefer that he conducts no opera whatever,then he'll be happy and so will a lot of people.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sharik said:


> its conductors' fault because they won't understand Strauss can not be played just as the score puts it. Strauss' should be first taken apart and then figured out what in his is primary and what secondary, otherwise we end up getting a strident din instead of beautiful music.


Well, the conductor was Karl Bohm, no slouch in the conducting department. Probably knew what he was after, but it just didn't work for me.


----------



## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

When i read one time that Boulez considered Verdi not worth conducting, i confess, it was a bit schoked.

Nevertheless, i enjoy his Ring very much.

And what about Don Giovanni? That was a surprise!


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

What's that? Pierre Boulez doesn't like Romantic music? Oh NO! What are we to do?


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

dionisio said:


> When i read one time that Boulez considered Verdi not worth conducting, i confess, it was a bit schoked.


Really? Verdi and Italian opera in general (whatever its merits; I rather like it) seem to me something of an anthisesis to Boulez and his beliefs about music.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Well, the conductor was Karl Bohm, no slouch in the conducting department


names don't count in this case, listen to Karajan interpreting _Eine Alpensinfonie_ where he makes the same mistake in understanding the score, failing to realise he should not force the orchestra to play it so loud at the most subtle of moments where themes intertwine and there's a urgent need to decide which one of them is to be put first.


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

sharik said:


> names don't count in this case, listen to Karajan interpreting _Eine Alpensinfonie_ where he makes the same mistake in understanding the score, failing to realise he should not force the orchestra to play it so loud at the most subtle of moments where themes intertwine and there's a urgent need to decide which one of them is to be put first.


Have you considered the fact that FrOSch is a very challenging score in the first place? Definitely among Strauss' most difficult to get to grips with.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Aksel said:


> Have you considered the fact that FrOSch is a very challenging score in the first place?


yes i have and that is why i suggest first solve the riddle _Die Frau_ is before performing it because Strauss' scores take more of interpretation effort than usually.


----------



## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Really? Verdi and Italian opera in general (whatever its merits; I rather like it) seem to me something of an anthisesis to Boulez and his beliefs about music.


...yes...but it's Verdi


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> the composer seems to have had no respect for what audiences want to hear.


That would be true in Soviet Russia....your comments (especially dissing Shostakovich :lol reminded me of a quote on opera by Joseph Stalin actually and his views on music. He said opera should...


> make use of the latest musical techniques but its idiom should be *close to the masses,* clear and *accessible*.


(highlighted the most important words)


----------



## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That would be true in Soviet Russia....your comments (especially dissing Shostakovich :lol reminded me of a quote on opera by Joseph Stalin actually and his views on music. He said opera should...
> (highlighted the most important words)


I never thought i'd say this someday but i agree with Stalin.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

dionisio said:


> I never thought i'd say this someday but i agree with Stalin.


I wouldn't be surprised if it really was the main reason composers fled to the US.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Xavier said:


> Question:
> 
> 1. Have you ever met anyone who holds similar views about the art form? I mean someone with very particular tastes who remains indifferent to much of the standard repertory AND who cares very little about the role of directors.


I must say, when it comes to opera I do have a tendency to prefer to see things _not_ part of the standard repertoire, although I do love things in the standard repertoire (stuff like La Bohème, La Traviata, Carmen, Tristan und Isolde, Wozzeck, Die Zauberflöte, L'Orfeo...but I must confess I am not so familiar with 19th C Italian operas). Operas not so often performed and premieres seem to intrigue me a lot more. Going to see something new, plunging into the unknown, the suspense created from the unfamiliar plot is much more thrilling than watching the same lovers, the same deaths over and over again.

I suppose I am selective as to what operas I like to go _see._ To listen to at home I like the comfort of knowing the story and the music and I like to listen to stuff in the standard repertoire. The more famous things that is.....

As for other people...one of my friends can't tolerate operas. :lol:


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sharik said:


> names don't count in this case, listen to Karajan interpreting _Eine Alpensinfonie_ where he makes the same mistake in understanding the score, failing to realise he should not force the orchestra to play it so loud at the most subtle of moments where themes intertwine and there's a urgent need to decide which one of them is to be put first.


Huh. Well, if you can suggest a conductor that you think makes it all clear, I will certainly give it another try. I mean, MY big goal here, posting in this forum, is to increase the number of operas I can enjoy - so if you can help out with FoS I will be deeply grateful.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That would be true in Soviet Russia....your comments (especially dissing Shostakovich :lol reminded me of a quote on opera by Joseph Stalin actually and his views on music. He said opera should...
> (highlighted the most important words)


OMG!!! I'm .... I'm STALINESQUE!!!


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> OMG!!! I'm .... I'm STALINESQUE!!!


... now I'll have to grow a mustache...


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ and you need to commission some gigantic statues.


----------



## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

sharik said:


> yes i have and that is why i suggest first solve the riddle _Die Frau_ is before performing it because Strauss' scores take more of interpretation effort than usually.


Yes, but just because it is a marvellous score (which I completely think it is), doesn't mean that everyone will or even have to love it. It might just as well be Greg's "fault" (which is in no way meant maliciously; I just couldn't think of a better word) that he doesn't warm to the opera, and not Böhm's.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Aksel said:


> "fault" (which is in no way meant maliciously; I just couldn't think of a better word)


Emotional response? The subjective character of experience? Qualia?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if it really was the main reason composers fled to the US.


And into the arms of J Edgar Hoover?????


----------

