# Music haters



## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I believe there are certain mortals who hate classical music.So they be going around talking & posting negative stuff about it.So why are people certain ones hate or dislike classical music?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Are you talking about CM in general or certain genres/types of CM?

I don't see any here at TC who go around negatively about CM in general. What's the point? TC by and large is for lovers of CM.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

There are those who are not on this site that hates classical music those are the ones i am posting about.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm sure there are people, maybe a lot of them, who don't like classical music. But they probably like the kinds of music that they like. I'm not sure what the point is here.


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## Mister Man (Feb 3, 2014)

I've seen "Classical" referred to as "troll music", or a variant thereof, on multiple occasions. I cannot fathom what it takes to have that kind of knee-jerk reaction.

Rap, Hip-Hop, Pop, "Fancy" by Iggy Azalea, none of it would receive this reaction. All of which I consider sonic pollution, an offense against human dignity, a celebration of ignorance.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mister Man said:


> Rap, Hip-Hop, Pop, "Fancy" by Iggy Azalea, none of it would receive this reaction. All of which I consider sonic pollution, an offense against human dignity, a celebration of ignorance.


It seems to me that you just gave it that sort of reaction...


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I think people hate what they don't understand. When this applies to classical music, this is usually because the person comes from a background where this type of music was never, or very rarely played. Sometimes the person's temperment, or personality interferes with enjoying this kind of music, or the culture of peer pressure, or cultural expectation has caused the aversion. But in general, I think it boils down to a lack of exposure /education. We also live in a broad world culture that downplays exceptionalism in favour of egalitarianism. Classical music has nearly always had the cachet of elitism, and some people will hate it just because of that. I wouldn't stress over this fact too much though: some people are just going to hate it no matter what we may do to convince them of classical music's merits. Good-night.


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## Mister Man (Feb 3, 2014)

KenOC said:


> It seems to me that you just gave it that sort of reaction...


Yes, well. Have you heard "Fancy"?


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## Macy (Jun 22, 2014)

I'd have to say that a huge part of it may be that they've have zero exposure to it. I agree wholeheartedly with that post. Although I really hope the lack of education bit means only a lack of musical education and not a broader spectrum of education. As if to say that people who do not enjoy classical must be uneducated in general because that would be unfairly stereotypical. I'm sure there are many people who went to the top schools who still don't enjoy it for whatever reason they choose to. And as for the rest, people cannot help who and what they're born to, what situation they were born to. You had no choice to whom you were born to either did you? What influences in your own life led you to love or dislike what you do. If you had been born where I was you might have grown up listening to the Grand Ole Opry instead of classical music. Can I be blamed for where I was born and those influences that directed my life any more than you can for yours? Food for thought 

As it is, I am quite obviously new to classical music and I'd like to think there's room to grow and learn still in my life at the age of 35. Broaden my horizons, so to speak. Might anyone tell me what pieces are not to be missed? I just picked up my households first Clair de Lune thanks to you lovely classical forum dwellers, and I really love how hauntingly beautiful it is. Any suggestions for a first timer in the classical music foray?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Simple: because they have an inferior musical taste.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I always saw it as more of a cultural issue than a musical one. I don't think many of these people have actually sat down and listened to more than five minutes of Beethoven or whatever, rather they react negatively to stereotypes of its listenership, not wishing to become associated — particularly by their friends — with those kinds of people. As they are unable to separate the more lamentable demographics from the music itself, so they are unable to admit if they actually liked that snippet of Beethoven they heard. I've seen it referred to as "inverse snobbery".


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Its just sad really how culturally bankrupt some people are, to put it plainly. I don't mean to sound condescending about it, but its either ignorance or an unwillingness to be associated with the kind of image they have of classical music. 

It doesn't help that when I go to the opera I frequently seem to be surrrounded by a lot of posh, rich, bourgeois types to the point of which I sometimes feel I am in some kind of comical parody of an opera house belonging to a bygone age.

Its more of a problem in my own country, England, then perhaps places like America or continental Europe, I think.

Plus; most people my age would rather be in nightclubs taking E and listening to EDM rather than sitting in a concert hall. Its a cult of instant gratification and bacchic ritual.  Which makes me wonder whether I should start DJing and introduce le sacre du printemps during a live set; it would probably go down very well and actually inject some culture into the clubbing scene for once!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

There are any number of reasons. There are some people who aren't very interested in music anyway, or who find listening to music too passive an idea. Some find it 'boring' because they're not used to concentrating, or just don't 'live in their heads' much. And a lot are influenced by fashions for their age - for example, I have a friend on Facebook who was in my violin class at school. She had private lessons too and was keen at first, but went off it when the Beatles and Stones were in vogue, because it just wasn't cool. She is a very musical person, though, and likes all sorts of jazz and 'alternative' pop, and currently she is 'into' Argentinian Tango and knows a great deal about Tango history. Basically, she is an effervescent lively person who always wanted to be 'of her age', whereas a part of me has always stood back. 

Classical music isn't for everyone; on the other hand, a lot more people could enjoy it if they were given exposure or education, and if they themselves decided to give it their best.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> I always saw it as more of a cultural issue than a musical one. I don't think many of these people have actually sat down and listened to more than five minutes of Beethoven or whatever, rather they react negatively to stereotypes of its listenership, not wishing to become associated - particularly by their friends - with those kinds of people. As they are unable to separate the more lamentable demographics from the music itself, so they are unable to admit if they actually liked that snippet of Beethoven they heard. I've seen it referred to as "inverse snobbery".


I can kind of relate to this though. There was a long period of time in high school when I refused to listen to rap or metal or jazz because I didn't want to be associated with gangsters or metalheads or...iono...guys with sunglasses and felt hats?

It took me a while and good bit of maturity to just ignore the social stereotypes associated with certain genres of music and just listen to the music itself objectively with no societal stereotypes in my head.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Why does anyone hate anything?

People differ in what they like and dislike, _and_ they differ in *how they respond* to what they like and dislike.

Some people are a**holes, basically, regardless of what their musical tastes are.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> I believe there are certain mortals who hate classical music.So they be going around talking & posting negative stuff about it.So why are people certain ones hate or dislike classical music?


Because classical music has no melodies! And the songs are too long and just go on and on and mostly there are not even words to the songs either. What's to like about such stuff?


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

Probably some people dislike classical music because _some_ classical music listeners are the sorts of people who use the word "mortals" when they should be using the word "people"

:devil:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The plain fact remains: the majority of people listen to music with their feet ... and their gonads, rather than with their ears firmly connected to their brains.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

KenOC said:


> I'm sure there are people, maybe a lot of them, who don't like classical music. But they probably like the kinds of music that they like. I'm not sure what the point is here.


The point is for what reasons they hate it?I can not see why they hate classical music so much.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> The point is for what reasons they hate it?I can not see why they hate classical music so much.


Do you really have to "see why"?

Put some music on and enjoy your day instead :tiphat:


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

violadude said:


> I can kind of relate to this though. There was a long period of time in high school when I refused to listen to rap or metal or jazz because I didn't want to be associated with gangsters or metalheads or...iono...guys with sunglasses and felt hats?
> 
> It took me a while and good bit of maturity to just ignore the social stereotypes associated with certain genres of music and just listen to the music itself objectively with no societal stereotypes in my head.


i DID NOT LIKE RAP because it was negative & violent & i did not want others to group me with them.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I refuse to be bothered with other peoples' hates. The clock is ticking and there are better ways to spend my precious time.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Simple: because they have an inferior musical taste.


You know i never thought of it that way yeah are right they have a problem with quality music.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Because classical music has no melodies! And the songs are too long and just go on and on and mostly there are not even words to the songs either. What's to like about such stuff?


WELL certain music have no great melodies

& there are some music lasting like 44 minutes long.Now i like the steady rhythm music out there.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Rather than using the adjective "inferior", I would be much more comfortable with using "different", when it comes to discussing another person's taste for a particular genre of music. "Inferior"--at least where I come from--is a very "loaded" word, and freighted with all kinds of implications/assumptions, none of them being of a good or positive nature.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

It doesn't bother me if people express hatred for classical music--especially if they do so with wit or panache.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/03/16/148769794/why-i-hate-the-goldberg-variations


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> I always saw it as more of a cultural issue than a musical one. I don't think many of these people have actually sat down and listened to more than five minutes of Beethoven or whatever, rather they react negatively to stereotypes of its listenership, not wishing to become associated - particularly by their friends - with those kinds of people. As they are unable to separate the more lamentable demographics from the music itself, so they are unable to admit if they actually liked that snippet of Beethoven they heard. I've seen it referred to as "inverse snobbery".


Yes, in those situations, to lose face can be quite dangerous.



violadude said:


> I can kind of relate to this though. There was a long period of time in high school when I refused to listen to rap or metal or jazz because I didn't want to be associated with gangsters or metalheads or...iono...guys with sunglasses and felt hats?
> 
> It took me a while and good bit of maturity to just ignore the social stereotypes associated with certain genres of music and just listen to the music itself objectively with no societal stereotypes in my head.


Yes, violadude, you were raised better than that. Was your family rich? You certainly don't sound like you were raised in a trailer, like I was.

I have Marxist leanings, so I have a love/hate relationship with classical music. Being that it is the embodiment of the bourgeois ruling class, royalty, and the wealthy, I am sometimes embarrassed to listen to Haydn and Mozart. I see the elitist ideology it serves as having oppressed the true 'folk' and those in poverty throughout its reign. Just the existence of classical music and its tradition seems to invalidate folk music as being 'inferior' just by inference. Notation, and highly trained skilled musicians, and composers who are acting individually, not as representatives of the common man, are all inherent elements of CM which distinguish it as an elitist form, for the wealthy and educated.

Thank God for modernism, which took it all back to artistic aims; and Frank Zappa, who made it all mean something.


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> i DID NOT LIKE RAP because it was negative & violent & i did not want others to group me with them.


Maybe you're just not educated about rap.

I hear Nazis liked classical music. I don't want others to group me with those guys.

See how ill-informed that sounds?

[NB: I love classical music. I love hip-hop. If you think all hip-hop is "negative & violent" you're mistaken, and you should try to expand your horizons.]


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## Mister Man (Feb 3, 2014)

peterb said:


> Maybe you're just not educated about rap.
> 
> I hear Nazis liked classical music. I don't want others to group me with those guys.
> 
> See how ill-informed that sounds?


"Gangsters" and "Metalheads" are subcultures directly associated with Rap and Metal in (lets assume) the 80's and 90's. I don't recall the association between Nazis and Classical in High School, let alone any sort of Nazi subculture.



> If you think all hip-hop is "negative & violent" you're mistaken, and you should try to expand your horizons.


If you're inclined, you ought to send me a PM with suggestions. Don't be intimated, I'm not a stranger to the genre. Unless you want to stunt my horizons, how could you?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

samurai said:


> Rather than using the adjective "inferior", I would be much more comfortable with using "different", when it comes to discussing another person's taste for a particular genre of music. "Inferior"--at least where I come from--is a very "loaded" word, and freighted with all kinds of implications/assumptions, none of them being of a good or positive nature.


It was a joke answer and related to the "there are certain mortals" in the OP. Relax, please.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mtmailey said:


> The point is for what reasons they hate it?I can not see why they hate classical music so much.


Just as a side note, I don't think I've ever met anyone who "hates" classical music.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I think it's best not to dump on types of music one does not care for. Respecting the tastes of others is easy to do.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I do not know much about rap but i do know much more about classical music.The books i have home are mostly about classical music.One book had a small part about hip-hop/rap.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Just as a side note, I don't think I've ever met anyone who "hates" classical music.


I have. My uncle hates it intensely. To the point where when I play it around him, he gets extremely angry and his blood pressure rises and he demands that I turn it off.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

There's been only one person I've ever come across who genuinely hated classical (though I never asked her why). While it's not everybody's cup of tea, I'd say the general public holds a decent amount of respect for classical. Though they don't listen to it much, they still recognize the genius of Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart.

As others have mentioned, I think it may be a combo of stereotypes that say classical is for the rich, the old, "intellectuals", and white people. So, why should people care what entertainment a rich, old, white "Harvard" man likes?

Maybe I'm wrong. But then again, in a lot of movies, they make sure the villain likes classical. Though that may just be a frightening juxtaposition between "smart" and "insane".


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> As others have mentioned, I think it may be a combo of stereotypes that say classical is for the rich, the old, "intellectuals", and white people. So, why should people care what entertainment a rich, old, white "Harvard" man likes?


I don't think you should take the substance of the criticism literally. People are simply being opportunistic in their attacks.

People don't dislike Classical because it is elitist or whitebread or old, they dislike it for various musical reasons (or perhaps out of ignorance), but simply use these words as a mode of attack. That's what people do.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I don't think you should take the substance of the criticism literally. People are simply being opportunistic in their attacks.
> 
> People don't dislike Classical because it is elitist or whitebread or old, they dislike it for various musical reasons (or perhaps out of ignorance), but simply use these words as a mode of attack. That's what people do.


Good point. Whenever someone is asked their opinion on an art or a form entertainment, they feel obligated to justify their opinions, even if they don't have an articulate reason. Sometimes "I just don't like it" doesn't feel sufficient, but it's the most honest answer (i.e. my opinion on country music)


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## cristoo (Jun 24, 2014)

I have to admit that I've heard rap on the radio that samples classical music. I know the Beastie Boys sampled Rachmaninoff. Whether it's everyone's type of hybrid music or not, it's interesting that people are trying to mix up genres with computers.


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## Mesenkomaha (Jun 24, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> As others have mentioned, I think it may be a combo of stereotypes that say classical is for the rich, the old, "intellectuals", and white people. So, why should people care what entertainment a rich, old, white "Harvard" man likes?


There is a lot of truth to this stereotype. My wife and I went to our local symphony orchestra for the first time and we were the youngest people there. You could even combine our ages together and we were still the youngest. The crowd was old, really old, and over 90% white (maybe more, I didn't see anyone of color but they may have been there who knows).

I was actually surprised to see that and afterwards wondered where will the symphony be in 10 to 15 years when all of these patrons are dead? Sure, there were probably a few other young couples there but I sure as heck didn't see them through the sea of old people.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> You certainly don't sound like you were raised in a trailer, like I was.
> 
> I have Marxist leanings, so I have a love/hate relationship with classical music. Being that it is the embodiment of the bourgeois ruling class, royalty, and the wealthy, I am sometimes embarrassed to listen to Haydn and Mozart. I see the elitist ideology it serves as having oppressed the true 'folk' and those in poverty throughout its reign. Just the existence of classical music and its tradition seems to invalidate folk music as being 'inferior' just by inference. Notation, and highly trained skilled musicians, and composers who are acting individually, not as representatives of the common man, are all inherent elements of CM which distinguish it as an elitist form, for the wealthy and educated.
> 
> Thank God for modernism, which took it all back to artistic aims; and Frank Zappa, who made it all mean something.


I was not raised in a trailer. But I was raised in - or, I prefer to say, was born into - a very small working class community to parents with little formal education. Our home was not filled with classical music, nor did anyone I knew in my neighborhood listen to it. But my mother played the piano in our little church, I had a stack of 78 rpm records from my grandparents including some famous opera singers of the past, and I began to play the piano by ear while still a child. Without membership in a wealthy elite class, and no real concept of such a thing, I could not have heard classical music as an expression or embodiment of it. Rather, I heard classical music as a fascinating, beautiful, absorbing world of sound and feeling which appealed to my mind and emotions in a complex and wonderful way not remotely matched by the popular songs and dance music being listened to by my parents or by my contemporaries.

Although I have come to see the ways in which the musical styles of different times and places arise from and reflect their social and artistic milieus, I do not accept that any music is finally or necessarily "for" or "of" people of any social or political class. If my own tastes seem to be those of a so-called wealthy and educated ruling class, it is not because I have ever been a member of such a class, or ever aspired to be. Classical music is, and was from the moment I discovered it, as much the music of "the people" as any other kind of music - but the music of those more unusual people who respond to its complexity of form, its richness of sonority, its subtlety of expression, and its imaginative reach. Whoever these people are, and whatever their social station or origins, they are as much the salt of the earth as any putative "folk" strumming their guitars on the village green.

Far from being embarrassed by the "elitist" music of Haydn and Mozart, I am grateful that I was able so early in life to perceive in it (and the music of other composers) the qualities which embody so many aspects of my - and all of our - humanness. It saddens me deeply that more people in our debased culture of egalitarian mediocrity are not given the opportunity to discover the riches of this "aristocratic" art before they have absorbed the notion that it is not for them.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

violadude said:


> I can kind of relate to this though. There was a long period of time in high school when I refused to listen to rap or metal or jazz because I didn't want to be associated with gangsters or metalheads or...iono...guys with sunglasses and felt hats?
> 
> It took me a while and good bit of maturity to just ignore the social stereotypes associated with certain genres of music and just listen to the music itself objectively with no societal stereotypes in my head.


Yes I think these stereotypes are important. What you listen to says something to the world about who you are, just like what clothes you wear, your way of speaking etc.

It goes deeper than that. Just thinking about vocal music, rap music talks about modern life, the plight of people today. Classical music doesn't. So classical music is less relevant and urgent.

Furthermore, the delivery of rap music is speech like and hence more real, while most classical music can seem very artificial.

As far as instrimental music is concerned, which is clearly a large part of classical music, I think people have a lot of trouble seeing the point of it, especially if it's not part of a film. The idea of listening to a piece of music with no words, which has nothing to say, aural decoration, is rather strange, after all.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> So they be going around talking & posting negative stuff about it.


This is a more interesting point. Why, if they don't like the music, would they want to waste their time acting in this way? I guess there are contrarians* out there, but no different in their compulsion from those who feel they must go around talking and posting negative stuff about rap, hip-hop, house, metal, country...

*I was called a contrarian on another forum. I wear my badge with pride, if the issue is worth it!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> As others have mentioned, I think it may be a combo of stereotypes that say classical is for the rich, the old, "intellectuals", and white people. So, why should people care what entertainment a rich, old, white "Harvard" man likes?


Why would someone dislike music that smart, educated, refined and successful people are supposed to like? I mean, those are all positive stereotypes rather than negative.

But I think, all these reasons people might give for their dislike of classical music, really come down to a single reason: they have not had this music hit them in the head and smite them in the heart yet. When it does that to you, when you feel music send a shiver down your spine, or make you shed tears, or fill your muscles with power and your heart with courage, or give you wings, all those stereotypes do not matter one bit.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Why would someone dislike music that smart, educated, refined and successful people are supposed to like? I mean, those are all positive stereotypes rather than negative.


Yes they are positive. Though, in America at least, the general public sees these as characteristics of high and mighty oppressors who think they're better than everyone, and aren't fun-loving, down to earth Americans who share common folk values. I guess I should have mentioned this context


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> There's been only one person I've ever come across who genuinely hated classical (though I never asked her why). While it's not everybody's cup of tea, I'd say the general public holds a decent amount of respect for classical. Though they don't listen to it much, they still recognize the genius of Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart.
> 
> As others have mentioned, I think it may be a combo of stereotypes that say classical is for the rich, the old, "intellectuals", and white people. So, why should people care what entertainment a rich, old, white "Harvard" man likes?
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong. But then again, in a lot of movies, they make sure the villain likes classical. Though that may just be a frightening juxtaposition between "smart" and "insane".


I think the changing demographics of listeners, audiences, and performers are doing wonders in changing the stereotypes regarding who listens to Classical music, if the progress is slow and uneven. More diverse people of every stratum are listening to the music and attending performances. And more minorities are playing in ensembles than ever before. Women are increasing in numbers on the podium (Falletta, Alsop, Young) and playing instruments typically given to male performers in years past. Asia is a shining example of this trend as well as Latin America.

It's a well known fact that stubborn attitudes will be slow to change and evolve. But, time, persistence, and changes in attitudes, habits, endeavors will continue to chip away those arguably antiquated attitudes and inhibitions for a mind to be broaden and evolved. And who would not want to see that coming?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> ...Without membership in a wealthy elite class, and no real concept of such a thing, I could not have heard classical music as an expression or embodiment of it. Rather, I heard classical music as a fascinating, beautiful, absorbing world of sound and feeling which appealed to my mind and emotions in a complex and wonderful way not remotely matched by the popular songs and dance music being listened to by my parents or by my contemporaries....


That's as it should be. The old power structure and paradigm of Classical music is dead and gone. Additionally, this notated music of the West was very progressive and advanced music greatly.

_*However, *_its origins, intents, and purposes, beyond the purely musical, _did at one time serve and embody the wealthy and ruling class, _incontrast to 'folk' music, which came from poverty. This points to reasons why Bob Dylan chose to be a 'folk' singer, rather than attempt to be a classical pianist. Music reflects its surroundings. roots, origins, and intents & purposes.



Woodduck said:


> ...Although I have come to see the ways in which the musical styles of different times and places arise from and reflect their social and artistic milieus, I do not accept that any music is* finally or necessarily *"for" or "of" people of any social or political class.


I never said it was; I just stated the ideology it embodies and was created for. You can 're-appropriate' it, but I think that each kind of music has a strong 'residue' or 'smell' of its origins. I think it is quite obvious in many cases, such as the delta blues of African-American slaves, jazz, Klezmer music, Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie...



Woodduck said:


> ...If my own tastes seem to be those of a so-called wealthy and educated ruling class, it is not because I have ever been a member of such a class, or ever aspired to be. Classical music is, and was from the moment I discovered it, as much the music of "the people" as any other kind of music - but the music of those more unusual people who respond to its complexity of form, its richness of sonority, its subtlety of expression, and its imaginative reach. Whoever these people are, and whatever their social station or origins, they are as much the salt of the earth as any putative "folk" strumming their guitars on the village green.


You seem to be implying that the attraction to CM is based on a response by "unusual people" who respond to "its complexity of form, its richness of sonority, its subtlety of expression, and its imaginative reach." 
This implies intelligence, skill, education, and wealth. This is not surprising, since it requires education, a degree of wealth (pianos, instruments) and years of specialized skills to play classically. This is music which, in every way, embodies the values of an elite, educated upper class. In South America, Gustav Dudamel embodies the desire of third-world emerging countries to aspire to this paradigm of education, wealth and capitalism.

Face the facts: in order to play this music requires that one be a member of an elite class, or at least have access to the trappings of the elite, such as pianos, educated teachers, etc.



Woodduck said:


> ...Far from being embarrassed by the "elitist" music of Haydn and Mozart, I am grateful that I was able so early in life to perceive in it (and the music of other composers) the qualities which embody so many aspects of my - and all of our - humanness.


Sure, there are universal qualities in any good art that everyone can relate to on a human level; but I'm not focusing on these 'egalitarian' universals, but on the particulars of a music which in many cases would exclude a person from engaging in it as a player. Piano lessons are 'a way of life' and must be started at an early age, etc.



Woodduck said:


> ...It saddens me deeply that more people in our debased culture of egalitarian mediocrity are not given the opportunity to discover the riches of this "aristocratic" art before they have absorbed the notion that it is not for them.


Likewise, it saddens me deeply that more people in our class-based culture of* capitalism and wealth vs. poverty *are not given the opportunity to discover the riches of this "aristocratic" art because they are born into poverty.

Likewise, it never ceases to amaze me what one man with "three chords and the truth" can do.

Classical music is European in origin; America has given the world jazz. I just want to be sure that this is recognized.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't hates nothin'. So I don't be like goin' around postin' negative things 'n' stuff.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

People who hate classical music inspire the same feelings in me as those who hate soccer: 

Pity and disdain.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> However, its origins, intents, and purposes, beyond the purely musical, did at one time serve and embody the wealthy and ruling class, incontrast to 'folk' music, which came from poverty. This points to reasons why Bob Dylan chose to be a 'folk' singer, rather than attempt to be a classical pianist. Music reflects its surroundings. roots, origins, and intents & purposes.


I suppose that helps to explain why Stanley Kubrick's "Barry Lyndon" is so hilarious.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I don't hates nothin'. So I don't be like goin' around postin' negative things 'n' stuff.





kv466 said:


> People who hate classical music inspire the same feelings in me as those who hate soccer:
> 
> Pity and disdain.


This whole premise of 'classical music haters' is dubious; it makes the CM listener, normally elitist, into a 'victim.'

That's like saying that 'white men are victims' to a feminist or minority. It's ridiculous. I've heard as much, if not more hate spewed by CM fans about rap and metal music.

So by saying that Classical European music originated from and represents a class-structured society, I'm 'spreading hate?' Gimme some slack.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mesenkomaha said:


> There is a lot of truth to this stereotype. My wife and I went to our local symphony orchestra for the first time and we were the youngest people there. You could even combine our ages together and we were still the youngest. The crowd was old, really old, and over 90% white (maybe more, I didn't see anyone of color but they may have been there who knows).
> 
> I was actually surprised to see that and afterwards wondered where will the symphony be in 10 to 15 years when all of these patrons are dead? Sure, there were probably a few other young couples there but I sure as heck didn't see them through the sea of old people.


We have the ageing-generation problem in our Scottish Country Dancing world. When Taggart & I started dancing at age 30, we were among the youngest in the class. When we returned after a break in our 50s, we were still among the youngest. Now in our sixties, we see that there are some in their forties and fifties, but not many, and there are far more in their seventies and eighties. So Scottish Country Dancing is moribund in the UK - but it is popular in Canada and Japan among younger people. And among younger people in the UK, 'Ceilidh dancing', a related form, is popular with young people in Scotland, anyway.

I think the same thing will happen with Classical Music. We go to Norwich Baroque concerts, and most of the audience are as old as us or older, with a sprinkling of young people. But most of the players are young, and the director, my violin teacher, has lots and lots of baroque-music young friends, so I think baroque music is a niche-fashion among twenty and thirty year olds.

At the same time, just as our Scottish Country Dance crew are refreshed by people coming in when they're middle-aged and no longer bothered about being 'cool', I think the main areas of Classical Music will be constantly refreshed (in the UK) by people of thirty-five upwards coming in.

There are also all these bright young Americans we have on the site; and all the young enthusiasts in China, Japan, India et al.

What I'm saying is, the old ones will be replaced somehow or other, and classical music will continue to be loved.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> This whole premise of 'classical music haters' is dubious; it makes the CM listener, normally elitist, into a 'victim.'
> 
> That's like saying that 'white men are victims' to a feminist or minority. It's ridiculous. I've heard as much, if not more hate spewed by CM fans about rap and metal music.
> 
> So by saying that Classical European music originated from and represents a class-structured society, I'm 'spreading hate?' Gimme some slack.


In the real world, nobody gives a hoot. You're either interested or you're not. So indifference would be a better term for those who don't care. That said, I do hate classical symphonies, and most romantic concertos. And Wagner!


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> I always saw it as more of a cultural issue than a musical one. I don't think many of these people have actually sat down and listened to more than five minutes of Beethoven or whatever, rather they react negatively to stereotypes of its listenership, not wishing to become associated - particularly by their friends - with those kinds of people. As they are unable to separate the more lamentable demographics from the music itself, so they are unable to admit if they actually liked that snippet of Beethoven they heard. I've seen it referred to as "inverse snobbery".


I've seen this kind of musical prejudice elsewhere as well. Plenty of people judge various kinds of rock music based on who they assume listens to it, which is just silly.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Just as a side note, I don't think I've ever met anyone who "hates" classical music.


Let me introduce you to Mrs Hermit - she's the one NOT in headphones listening to Schubert, but the one lying on the sofa watching Doc Martin!


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I don't care if other people hate classical music I don't


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> I always saw it as more of a cultural issue than a musical one. I don't think many of these people have actually sat down and listened to more than five minutes of Beethoven or whatever, rather they react negatively to stereotypes of its listenership, not wishing to become associated - particularly by their friends - with those kinds of people. As they are unable to separate the more lamentable demographics from the music itself, so they are unable to admit if they actually liked that snippet of Beethoven they heard. I've seen it referred to as "inverse snobbery".


Yup! I've always thought that "inverse snobbery" is even more repulsive than snobbery itself. A snob is a nasty person, but he is at least honest about it. An "inverse snob" is both nasty AND a hypocrite.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Let me introduce you to Mrs Hermit - she's the one NOT in headphones listening to Schubert, but the one lying on the sofa watching Doc Martin!


Sounds very familiar!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Sounds very familiar!


Hey, Pal!!! When were you last in my living room!


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Hey, Pal!!! When were you last in my living room!


It's free for everyone to watch since Mrs Hermit put You out there on "Webcammania" ...  

/ptr


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I can see why i & others do not like rap/ hip hop because the music is negative,violent,murderous there is hatred in the music.I rather not hear depressing music.But i see no valid reasons to hate classical music.


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## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

There is a more practical problem involved in this mess as well: if a couple of snobs will diss on rap, that's all good and well, but Eminem and Macklemore will still be making obscene sums of money - and that is irrelevant anyways, because the few snobs are the only ones dissing on rap. However, if the general public "hates" classical music, there is a real problem because classical music *will* fade out. Because of the bad stereotypes involved in Western classical music, this considerably more elaborate, and therefore expensive, art form will collapse, an unfortunate circumstance already taking place.


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## Majed Al Shamsi (Feb 4, 2014)

According to this list (number two) by Howard Gardner, a famous developmental psychologist, it can be deduced that people who enjoy hip hop/rap music (basically a repetitive beat) aren't as music-intelligent as those who enjoy more complex forms of music, such as classical music.

However, that isn't to say that people who enjoy classical music are always smarter, because there are other kinds of intelligence that classical music haters may have well established.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2014)

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> According to this list (number two) by Howard Gardner, a famous developmental psychologist, *it can be deduced* that people who enjoy hip hop/rap music (basically a repetitive beat) aren't as music-intelligent as those who enjoy more complex forms of music, such as classical music.


You're no Sherlock, I'm afraid. It's quite possible to like both and proclaim you're "musical intelligent"!


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## Majed Al Shamsi (Feb 4, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> You're no Sherlock, I'm afraid.


Your observational skills are quite remarkable.



MacLeod said:


> It's quite possible to like both and proclaim you're "musical intelligent"!


And there's no reason it shouldn't be possible.
The two genres, if you will, do not contradict one another. One form, though, is more complex than the other, and would take a more musically intelligent person (able to "discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone") to enjoy it.

If that is too big of a jump for you, you might need to work on your number 3 on the list.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hmmbug said:


> Because of *the bad stereotypes involved in Western classical music*, this considerably more elaborate, and therefore expensive, art form will collapse, an unfortunate circumstance already taking place.


The modern world is really turned on its head.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2014)

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> Your observational skills are quite remarkable.
> 
> And there's no reason it shouldn't be possible.
> The two genres, if you will, do not contradict one another. One form, though, is more complex than the other, and would take a more musically intelligent person (able to "discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone") to enjoy it.
> ...


No, not too big a jump for me at all. It was your post that seemed to imply that enjoying the one might exclude the enjoying of the other.



> it can be deduced that people who enjoy hip hop/rap music (basically a repetitive beat) aren't as music-intelligent as those who enjoy more complex forms of music, such as classical music.


If I misread that implication, I'll acknowledge that I'm no Sherlock either!


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## Jonathan Wrachford (Feb 8, 2014)

my guess is that they just like other genres of music so much that they want something that they consider of a lesser quality to prove their point.


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## Majed Al Shamsi (Feb 4, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> No, not too big a jump for me at all. It was your post that seemed to imply that enjoying the one might exclude the enjoying of the other.


Oh no, I would never imply that. I myself like a little bit of everything.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> According to this list (number two) by Howard Gardner, a famous developmental psychologist, it can be deduced that people who enjoy hip hop/rap music (basically a repetitive beat) aren't as music-intelligent as those who enjoy more complex forms of music, such as classical music.


I saw a highly respected educational psychologist cause paroxisms of anxiety by asking the audience "Does any empirical evidence exist to support Gardner's assertions?"


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## Majed Al Shamsi (Feb 4, 2014)

Headphone Hermit - You're absolutely right. The trouble with the field of psychology is that it is difficult to explore.
We can't even prove the subconscious exists.
From what I know, Gardner wasn't ridiculed as much as, say, Sigmund Freud was, and yet you have to understand that the assertions those people made were not guesses, or uneducated opinions. It's safe to assume they knew more about the mind than you and I do.
Though what they have said cannot be proven, it wouldn't be wise to throw it out the window immediately without at least considering it.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> Headphone Hermit - You're absolutely right. The trouble with the field of psychology is that it is difficult to explore.
> We can't even prove the subconscious exists.
> From what I know, Gardner wasn't ridiculed as much as, say, Sigmund Freud was, and yet you have to understand that the assertions those people made were not guesses, or uneducated opinions. *It's safe to assume they knew more about the mind than you and I do.*Though what they have said cannot be proven, it wouldn't be wise to throw it out the window immediately without at least considering it.


Speak for yourself, pal! 

Seriously, though - Gardner's suggestion of multiple intelligences is an interesting construct .... but I regularly see it inadequately understood, inappropriately applied and given unwarranted authority. Gardner's suggestion carries some more weight than the plethora of pop-psychology out there, but none-the-less they lack empirical evidence


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Speak for yourself, pal!
> 
> Seriously, though - Gardner's suggestion of multiple intelligences is an interesting construct .... but I regularly see it inadequately understood, inappropriately applied and given unwarranted authority. Gardner's suggestion carries some more weight than the plethora of pop-psychology out there, but none-the-less they ARE simply assertions


Assertions? I'd say they are more than that. The multiple intelligences is a contruct - a formalised way of looking at something in the same way as astrological star signs is a construct, though, presumably, based on something more substantial than planets and planetary motions!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

OK ... I'll delete the last three words and replace with 'lack empirical evidence'. 

Apologies for a sloppy error :tiphat:


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Hmmbug said:


> There is a more practical problem involved in this mess as well: if a couple of snobs will diss on rap, that's all good and well, but Eminem and Macklemore will still be making obscene sums of money - and that is irrelevant anyways, because the few snobs are the only ones dissing on rap. However, if the general public "hates" classical music, there is a real problem because classical music *will* fade out. Because of the bad stereotypes involved in Western classical music, this considerably more elaborate, and therefore expensive, art form will collapse, an unfortunate circumstance already taking place.


Those rappers make money because of skin color not talent.IN AMERICA race & a few other things is what sell albums.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> Those rappers make money because of skin color not talent.IN AMERICA race & a few other things is what sell albums.


Do you realise or care that the two rappers Hmmbug referred to are white? Either way what you said is weird and offensive!


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> Those rappers make money because of skin color not talent.IN AMERICA race & a few other things is what sell albums.


In sympathize with your dislike for rap/hip-hop but there are plenty of white-American rappers cashing in. Check this mofo out, I don't even know his music but he CRAAAAAZEEE!!...


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

View attachment 45401
View attachment 45402
AS stated before these white rappers are getting support because they are white not much else.THEY HAVE NO TALENT!!They steal the ideas from blacks to make money & they rehash much music.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

dgee said:


> Do you realise or care that the two rappers Hmmbug referred to are white? Either way what you said is weird and offensive!


You think what you want it is the truth anyway.These rappers get support because of skin color not much else.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Western classical music is the most 'advanced' music, in terms of pure music elements. It's the most harmonically advanced, for sure.
What the danger for CM is that it might become irrelevant, because its raison d'etre is dead and gone.

Unlike 'folk' and popular musics, classical did not come from, or represent, the 'roots' of humanity, except in a very general universal sense, as all art tries to do. CM was the domain of the elite ruling class. As such, it has developed along certain lines (musical development, performing skill) and has always been 'out of touch' with the downtrodden, oppressed, and poverty stricken masses.

Now that this paradigm (church, royalty) is largely gone, the dominant influence is now the capitalist marketplace, which has no interest in furthering any artistic vision. CM is just another player on the field of the popular marketplace.

Classical music listeners are now obligated to define for themselves what the new paradigm will be, and what their music represents for them, and not worry about other people and their chosen music.

For me classical music represents the most advanced musical ideas and thinking; it represents 'heroic attempts' through time, to create icons or masterpieces, representative of the highest aspirations of the artists.

What classical music _lacks,_ in today's environment, is dynamic development as a relevant social force, which reflects the 'newness' of life, and the people performing/creating it. Classical music has separated the performer and composer, and this is a large part of the problem, creating trained musicians who are irrelevant except as strict interpreters, and not as improvisors. YoYo Ma is trying to escape this trap with his Silk Road Ensemble and his involvement with the Appalachian project with Mark O'Connor and Edgar Meyer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

As far back as I can remember, there have always been negative stereotypes associated with classical music. Nothing has changed. It will never be mainstream music. The general populace always seems to accept mediocrity in culture as the norm.
Just accept it and move on. Not worth wasting time on.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

_"What classical music lacks, in today's environment, is dynamic development as a relevant social force"_

Welcome back, zhdanovshchina, Kochana!


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## billeames (Jan 17, 2014)

I agree with Antiquarian in that people don't understand it, and don't want to. It really takes a learning curve to appreciate it in my opinion. Even within classical music there are difficulties. It took me 10 years to really appreciate the Messiaen Turangalila symphony. Now I am nuts about it. But that will wear off. Even within the classical music community, some types are less popular than others. For example out local classical music station plays what most classical listeners want: baroque and classical period.

I think also that many people don't think classical music is relevant. They hate it as it is foreign also. Boring is what I have heard also. 

thanks, 

Bill


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I dated a gal once who asked me what music I liked. After I told her, she replied emotionally, "I HATE classical music!!" and left it at that.
If she added, "but perhaps you can let me listen to some pieces that might change my mind." But she didn't. So I simply moved on. Not worth wasting time with a person like that, stubbornly set in her ways.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

hpowders said:


> As far back as I can remember, there have always been negative stereotypes associated with classical music. Nothing has changed. It will never be mainstream music. The general populace always seems to accept mediocrity in culture as the norm.
> Just accept it and move on. Not worth wasting time on.


These stereotypes about classical music is just nonsense those out there should study it like i did to understand it better.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> These stereotypes about classical music is just nonsense those out there should study it like i did to understand it better.


You are right. Nonsense it is!!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> These stereotypes about classical music is just nonsense those out there should study it like i did to understand it better.


That's pretty funny - "should study it like I did". There are no shoulds in music; people are free to listen and enjoy whatever music turns them on.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Of course, a lot of people who hate classical music have never heard any of it for any substantial length of time and couldn't identify a single piece by composer or name (except maybe the opening of Beethoven's Fifth, which is so iconic that the first four notes are "liked" by almost everyone). Maybe that's why I don't much care for rap -- I haven't listened to it for any substantial length of time and can't identify a single piece by composer or name ... with no exception!

Hey ... it's sometimes not such a bad thing to not like something.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Well i used to listen to hip hop/rap BUT i stopped because i saw how they really were money greedy dogs & the music declined it lacked meaning.


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