# I just thoroughly enjoyed a 12-tone composition



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Specifically Schoenberg's piano concerto. This is a first for me.

I guess this means I've crossed over to the dark side. Hi guys :tiphat:


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## Kazaman (Apr 13, 2013)

Who was playing?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Uchida and the Chicago SO, I believe. YouTube.


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## Kazaman (Apr 13, 2013)

I recommend also trying Gould, Brendel and Ax.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Congrats. I'm not there yet...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Not too long ago I made a breakthrough with Berg's violin concerto. For years and many listenings the concerto sounded like somewhat random notes with nothing to draw me in. After listening to a moderated version where the moderator talked about a portion then played that part, I found much of it beautiful. I'm hoping to break through on Schoenberg's 3rd quartet now. 

Did you do anything differently or did it just "come to you"? How long (or how many times) had you heard the concerto?


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

Welcome! Come on in--we have cookies...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Cookies!

And so, 12 tone eh?

What kinda cookies?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ahammel said:


> I just thoroughly enjoyed a 12-tone composition


Great. Want a medal?



ahammel said:


> Uchida and the Chicago SO, I believe. YouTube.


That's a great recording. My personal favorite of the work, although Brendel and Ax are of course good choices as well. I like Gould's Schoenberg, but Craft's conducting is so pedestrian that it brings the whole thing down.



Kieran said:


> What kinda cookies?


Cereal cookies, of course!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Cereal cookies, haha! 

I must say, I enjoyed reading this article about Schoenberg. It's possible I'll impulse buy the Mitsuko disc tomorrow, if they have it in Tower Records...


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## Kazaman (Apr 13, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I like Gould's Schoenberg, but Craft's conducting is so pedestrian that it brings the whole thing down.


Yes, it's really a shame. Gould said he would perform the concerto for free with any orchestra that offered in the early sixties, but sadly nobody took him up on the offer, and so the only recording we have is this.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

No liking for Pollini's recording? I'm surprised to hear Brendel recorded it, it is outside of his usual repertoire although i'm sure he has the skills.


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## Kazaman (Apr 13, 2013)

quack said:


> No liking for Pollini's recording? I'm surprised to hear Brendel recorded it, it is outside of his usual repertoire although i'm sure he has the skills.


I haven't heard Pollini's recording, but I would like to.

RE: Brendel, he wrote an essay on the subject of the concerto that is quite interesting.


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## Kazaman (Apr 13, 2013)

Oh, and I somehow forgot, but Steuermann's recording is indispensable as well.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> Did you do anything differently or did it just "come to you"? How long (or how many times) had you heard the concerto?


It was my first time hearing the concerto. I didn't do anything in particular except follow along with the score. My sight-reading is no where near enough to be of much use with the harmony, but it was helpful to be able to follow the rhythmic structure and the different voices through the piece.

Thanks for the recording recommendations, all. I've heard some of Gould's recordings of other Schoenberg pieces and didn't get too much out of them, but I'll have to come back to them now.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well I have read that Schoenberg's piano concerto is a result of his admiration for Brahms' music & concepts of music. Eg. that pared down lean feel of the orchestration and the piano part not being particularly flashy virtuoso. So I guess you might be a Brahms fan, ahammel? As a matter of fact, Brahms was already experimenting with themes at the beginning of his works having this tonal ambiguity, but by the end you get some sort of resolution. I suppose with Schoenberg a big difference is that he's pushing that in other directions, into the Modern era, of course dealing with serialism.

But re what you said about sight reading, I did read on the back of the Brendel recording I got on vinyl that the tone row on which the whole work is based appears at the beginning of the piece. Its not always as explicit as that with serial music. So I'm thinking with that approach you might be receptive to other works that have that aspect, the tone row at the start. One work I think that has that is a favourite of mine, the cello concerto of Dutilleux. At the start of that the cellist plays a 'row' or theme/motif that goes thru the whole piece, becomes the basis of it. I think its a kind of post-serial work, but it could be another building block in your further exploration of this type of music. Another one is Elliott Carter's String Quartet #1, he takes this row played by the cello thru the whole work, and it ends with a variation of it on violin. But Dutilleux and Carter aren't serialists stricly speaking, they just used Schoenberg's music as a springboard for their own unique styles.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kieran said:


> It's possible I'll impulse buy the Mitsuko disc tomorrow, if they have it in Tower Records...


This seems a sort of contradiction...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Perhaps this thread should be merged with the "I like this music so ridicule me" thread.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

By the way, just to be clear, that was sarcasm! I'm a fan of the 2nd Vienna dudes.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I believe Berg is helping me to cross over to the -- if not quite dark, at least murky side. I'm not quite there with Schoenberg, but then I haven't spent much time with his music.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

ahammel said:


> I just thoroughly enjoyed a 12-tone composition


I prefer 7-tone compositions.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Well I have read that Schoenberg's piano concerto is a result of his admiration for Brahms' music & concepts of music. Eg. that pared down lean feel of the orchestration and the piano part not being particularly flashy virtuoso. So I guess you might be a Brahms fan, ahammel?


Yep! 

Thanks for the recommendations!



science said:


> Perhaps this thread should be merged with the "I like this music so ridicule me" thread.


I've no objection.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> This seems a sort of contradiction...


There's no contradiction at all. I plan my impulses very meticulously...


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I prefer 7-tone compositions.


And you call yourself a Wagner fan?


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> And you call yourself a Wagner fan?


You are unbanned!
Welcome back!


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

jani said:


> You are unbanned!
> Welcome back!


Thank you~ :3


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Specifically Schoenberg's piano concerto. This is a first for me.
> 
> I guess this means I've crossed over to the dark side. Hi guys :tiphat:


Welcome, my brother. You can pick up your black robe, slippers, and horned helmet at your convenience. You have made a big, big decision. You are not to contact your family. What goes on behind these doors must remain secret, lest these powers fall into the hands of the uninitiated. Now, let the initiation ceremony begin:

SATOR
AREPO
TENET
OPERA
ROTAS


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

BurningDesire & Couchie 
Wellcome back, you are the salt of these forums!


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

Congrats, my friend, you have opened yourself up to a rich and rewarding world of music.

This is the twelve-tone piece that I am currently enjoying a lot; to me it is intensely lyrical and very coherent (the part at 1:20 reminds me of a Brahms intermezzo!). I hope you feel the same!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

millionrainbows said:


> SATOR
> AREPO
> TENET
> OPERA
> ROTAS


Thank you for introducing me to the Sator Square. I had to Google it. Fascinating!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Late fan of Schoenberg*

With the exception of some of his tonal works, I was critical of the music of Schoenberg until I was in my fifties. The first atonal work of his that I learned to like was the _Piano Concerto_.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Not too long ago I made a breakthrough with Berg's violin concerto.


The Berg VC was my last attempt at 12tone. I know it was highly ranked on the TC violin concerto poll, so I've been trying to get into it. To no avail as of yet, but I'll try again at some point.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I think it's problematic that people see 12-tone composition as being something inscrutable, something abnormal, something theoretical.

It is not.

Everything you think you know about it is probably at least reductive to the point of meaningless, and at worst, utterly false.

Approach 12-tone music the way you would any other music, and its logic will reveal itself automatically.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Weston said:


> Thank you for introducing me to the Sator Square. I had to Google it. Fascinating!


Its is fascinating and relevant to music, Webern's _Concerto for 9 instruments, Op. 24 _is based on this Roman poem. But all the 3 Viennese atonalists where fascinated by number patterns, mottos & palindromes too. These pop up throughout their scores.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I think it's problematic that people see 12-tone composition as being something inscrutable, something abnormal, something theoretical.
> 
> It is not.
> 
> ...


Then why did Alban Berg write an essay called "Why is Schoenberg's Music So Difficult to Understand?" :lol::devil:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I prefer 7-tone compositions.


Then you'd like Thai music; it divides the octave into seven equal steps! :lol:


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## Kazaman (Apr 13, 2013)

Listen to Webern's Canatas ... there you will find the devotion of the early sacred composers, the striking word painting of the Renaissance madrigalists, the contrapunctal tapestries of the High Baroque, the symmetry and structure of the Classicists, the awe for nature of the early Romantics, the endless colour palettes of the great orchestrators, the anguish of the expressionists, the disillusionment of the early Modernists; you will find the care of a craftsman, the vision of an artist, the eloquence of a poet and the sensitivity of a wonderful musician. They are masterpieces.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Then why did Alban Berg write an essay called "Why is Schoenberg's Music So Difficult to Understand?" :lol::devil:


Well, you can note that that essay deals entirely with the Quartet No. 1 in D minor, a tonal work.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I think it's problematic that people see 12-tone composition as being something inscrutable, something abnormal, something theoretical.
> 
> It is not.
> 
> ...


Well, there's no sense denying that Schoenberg is complicated, but then, so is Bach. Whenever I hear somebody bring out the "bunch of random notes" canard, I remember that that's what _Die Kunst der Fuge_ sounded like to me the first time I heard it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Well, there's no sense denying that Schoenberg is complicated, but then, so is Bach. Whenever I hear somebody bring out the "bunch of random notes" canard, I remember that that's what _Die Kunst der Fuge_ sounded like to me the first time I heard it.


I understand why people find Schoenberg difficult.

It's unflaggingly dense.
It's idiosyncratic.
It's non-repetitive (constant variation).

(I'd say Beethoven's Grosse Fuge has these qualities as well, and look how popular that is!)

Dissonance and "atonality" are, I feel, pretty far down the list, but probably don't help.

I'm not the least offended when someone says they don't _enjoy_ Schoenberg's music. I'm offended when they allege that there's something intrinsically wrong with it, and repeat this as fact without any argument.

Of course, you realize now that you've had a moment (however fleeting it might be) enjoying 12-tone music, you are thoroughly discredited and your opinion means nothing. :tiphat:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ahammel said:


> Well, there's no sense denying that Schoenberg is complicated, but then, so is Bach. Whenever I hear somebody bring out the "bunch of random notes" canard, I remember that that's what _Die Kunst der Fuge_ sounded like to me the first time I heard it.


The flip side of that is that in his own time, Bach was innovating, he was laying down the groundwork for counterpoint. I see him as an innovator like Schoenberg was in the 20th century. They both built upon the past. My understanding is that there is no strict definition or theory of how to do things like fugues and passacaglias. A lot of it is based on convention and these forms leave a lot ot the discretion and artistic license of the composer who is writing in these forms. I'd say the same thing about atonality and serialism - these are just techniques, they are not an end in themselves, they can be used to make great music, emotional music, etc. (same as the contrapuntal techniques layed down by BAch hundreds of years back). So I think comparing them is apt in some ways at least (eg. from a big picture, historical perspective).

& this ties in with what I said about Schoenberg's piano concerto before. He went back to Brahms with that - that restraint and kind of neo-classicism. & Brahms himself said of Bach's music that it made him very emotional, he would not have been able to bear the emotional & intellectual intensity required to compose such pieces as the Chaconne from the Partita for solo violin. I think Brahms wrote in a letter that if he'd have done that, he would have went insane from the stress.

So I think of these types of links all the time and Schoenberg always maintained he was one of a long line streching right back to history, back to Bach (& he was not the only one - look at guys like Bartok or Hindemith, same thing, but they made their own unique conclusions based upon the bedrock of that tradition).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I was critical of Schoenberg, too, until I tried his chicken soup recipe. Yum! :lol:


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I really like the Schoenberg piano concerto, too! I first heard it after having watched a video where Uchida was interviewed and asked about it. I was immediately interested (partly because I'm a huge Uchida fan) and listened to a live recording from YouTube, with Uchida as soloist. Sure, it isn't what one could call 'easy listening', but it nevertheless never ceases to excite me with its peculiar language, diverse rhythms and many suprising moments!

I also like his Violin Concerto, to which I was introduced by Hilary Hahn's recording. Interestingly, I read a review where the writer said that this piece has been said to be the ugliest piece of music ever written. Wait, what!? _Surely_ I have heard *much* worse than this particular concerto...


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Janspe said:


> I also like his Violin Concerto, to which I was introduced by Hilary Hahn's recording. Interestingly, I read a review where the writer said that this piece has been said to be the ugliest piece of music ever written. Wait, what!? _Surely_ I have heard *much* worse than this particular concerto...


Expectations have a good deal to do with perceptions. If one hears the name Schoenberg and cringes at its sound, then one is not likely to recognize the lyrical beauty in the "Book of the Hanging Gardens" song cycle or the inventive instrumentation in the 5 Orchestral Pieces. One will hear what one expects.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I prefer 7-tone compositions.


Do have any examples to share?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Specifically Schoenberg's piano concerto. This is a first for me.
> 
> I guess this means I've crossed over to the dark side. Hi guys :tiphat:


Hope you haven't voted for the Wigs already - if not make sure you confirm your allegiances by voting for the dark side young Darth Sith.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Uchida and the Chicago SO, I believe. YouTube.


not ruling out Emanuel Ax, whose performance I have not heard, I think Uchida -- much more than any others I have heard -- plays this piece with more of the genuine feeling and sentiments which were the ether / ethos Schoenberg lived and breathed. Great performance, imo.

Next, try the Berg Concerto for piano,violin and thirteen wind instruments -- with, please, a 'non-star' line-up performing the piano and violin parts. The better performances I've heard use the principals of the orchestra, not 'soloists.' In this too, you will hear / recognize the late romantic sentiments, the lyricism, here and there a gentle Viennese waltz, etc.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

quack said:


> No liking for Pollini's recording? I'm surprised to hear Brendel recorded it, it is outside of his usual repertoire although i'm sure he has the skills.


Late German Romantic ~ right up his alley


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

haha the first time I enjoyed a twelve tone composition was Berg's violin concerto. Frankly I found it rather randomly, when I wanted to hear something from schoenberg webern or berg, half to irritate myself & make fun of it, half out of curiosity (which was probably more sincere than I dared to admit to myself). Maybe I choose something by Berg because I had already heard some works from the others, I'm not sure anymore. 

But when I heard it I was really touched by it. I remember thinking "maybe its just that the violin is such a natural emotional instrument that even twelve tone music can be played emotionally with it" :lol:

But its some years ago already, when I didn't even know the difference between atonal and twelvetone technique (maybe I didn't even know the term atonal), and remembered those names from a textbook at highschool. It took quite a while before I started to enjoy other twelve-tone pieces.

I hope you will forgive me for this :lol:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The first 12-tone work I heard was Stravinsky's Movements for Piano and Orchestra. I thought it sounded odd, and didn't like the fact that it lacked the extrovert energy that I associated with the early and Neoclassical works by Stravinsky that I already knew.

The first 12-tone work I unhesitatingly loved was also by Stravinsky, his Anthem based on part of TS Eliot's Little Gidding (but I've always been attracted to choral music, as I've been around it my entire life). I hadn't heard anything by Schoenberg, Berg, or Webern, and I was still somewhat suspicious of the techniques, for the same reasons everyone else cites regarding its supposed mechanical nature and so forth.

Of course, once I got into Berg, then Schoenberg, then Webern, all of those reasons seem to be nonsense and nothing more. I realized it was mere prejudice on my part.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Is Robert Craft no good in general? I believe I have some Stravinsky recording of his...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Specifically Schoenberg's piano concerto. This is a first for me.
> 
> I guess this means I've crossed over to the dark side. Hi guys :tiphat:











___________________________________________________________


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

If you think thats impressive, I'm quite enjoying Pierre Boulez's Piano Sonatas :3


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Is Robert Craft no good in general? I believe I have some Stravinsky recording of his...


He's mediocre in general, I think. Competent, but bettered by pretty much everyone else even in the repertoire he specializes in. That said, his newer Naxos recordings are far above his old Columbia recordings.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Hmm...oh well...maybe I should look into other recordings for this then. Bought this pretty damn cheap when I was probably no more than 2-3 months into my classical fandom.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Hmm...oh well...maybe I should look into other recordings for this then. Bought this pretty damn cheap when I was probably no more than 2-3 months into my classical fandom.


Well, only if you feel you want or need another recording. It's more a matter of taste than anything else, I suppose, and there are many who have a higher opinion of Craft than I, but I just feel that others consistently show the music in a better light.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Schoenberg & his compadres were Romantics, so they used the same forms, rhetoric, and dramatic gesture as the Romantics, so it requires no big paradigm-shift to access these composers. I think John Cage, Boulez, and Stockhausen present more fundamentally different non-Western approaches.

That's not to say I don't recognize the difficulties in some of Schoenberg's works. His "themes" make no tonal concessions, although they do repeat and provide coherence. Still, compared to lyrical tonal melodic constructs, they are gangly, bizarre, and leap about much more.

Re: Craft, I imprinted on the "Music of Arnold Schoenberg" series of vinyl box-sets on Columbia Masterworks, and hold these in high regard. Craft's reading of "Five Pieces" has never been equaled, IMHO. I have the KOCH series of Craft recordings as well, and the recording quality is not as good. Just wait until they release all those Columbia titles on CD, and you can judge for yourself.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Well, only if you feel you want or need another recording. It's more a matter of taste than anything else, I suppose, and there are many who have a higher opinion of Craft than I, but I just feel that others consistently show the music in a better light.


Well, thing is, I've never listened to multiple recordings of those two works. So what sounds good to me may still be relatively mediocre. And I know that part of the reason that record doesn't touch Bernstein's Rite Of Spring, for instance, is because it's The Rite Of Spring and all, but maybe they'd be a little closer in quality with ideal recordings of those two.


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