# Music of Separation, Freedom, Independence, Autonomy, Self-Determination



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., but is there any music for separation, divorce, freedom, liberty, independence, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Have you got problems at home? :devil:


----------



## Stavrogin (Apr 20, 2014)

First things that comes to mind are national anthems  at least some of them, such as the Armenian, Israeli, Macedonian, Romanian, and of course Palestine and other disputed territories.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., but is there any music for separation, divorce, freedom, liberty, independence, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


I'm thinking the singing telegram congratulating people on the finalization of a divorce is common enough, along with the singing telegram as delivered by a stripper, or the addition to those of an always tasteful sending of a bouquet of flowers


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

:devil:


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

brotagonist said:


> There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., but is there any music for separation, divorce, freedom, liberty, independence, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


Anouk - Nobody's wife

I can't think of anything better at the moment :lol:


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., but is there any music for separation, divorce, freedom, liberty, independence, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


Many Composers music stems from loneliness, isolation, failed relationships, etc. try the first movement of Mahler 10, or Tchaikovsky Pathetique.


----------



## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I think this one fits the bill quite well.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Triplets said:


> Many Composers music stems from loneliness, isolation, failed relationships, etc. try the first movement of Mahler 10, or Tchaikovsky Pathetique.


The first movement (and second movement) of Mahler 10 was begun before Mahler was aware of Alma's relationship with Gropius (though likely completed after), so it really can't be said to stem completely from any of the things you're talking about.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

What about Finlandia?


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> What about Finlandia?


Or the Alla Marcia from Karelia


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Brahms' third symphony actually has a motif which spells out F-A-F -- "Frei aber Froh", i.e., Free but Happy. This was in response to the motto of his friend, the violinist Joseph Joachim: "Frei aber einsam": free but lonely. The whole symphony, then, is literally a celebration of happy life as a single man. 

Beethoven's Egmont Overture was the unofficial anthem of the Hungarian Revolution, and naturally has ties to Goethe's Egmont! Much of Beethoven would work, no?


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

This is where Classic Rock excels. You want a song explaining why you just can't be tied down to a woman? Plenty to choose from.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Frei aber froh! Yes, that one symphonizes  I'm going to have to listen to Brahms' 3rd today!


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., but is there any music for separation, divorce, freedom, liberty, independence, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


Plenty of music about being dumped, obviously. Winterreise has always been my favourite piece about dumpsville/ alienation. However, I read your post as asking whether anything has been written about separation, freedom etc. in the same celebratory tone as that used for falling in love, getting married etc. It's an interesting question, to which I don't have the answer. An obvious and probably too broad brush point is that self determination only became a virtue some time towards the end of the last century, and for most of the period in which CM was composed individualism was not considered something noble enough to be given approving treatment. The nineteenth century was of course obsessed with human perfectibility, but not generally for the benefit of the individual, or at least not primarily.There must be some famous counter examples though, since the desire for autonomy is such a basic human trait. I suppose the desire for freedom has most commonly pressed into service as a rationalisation of nationalistic or revolutionary sentiment, of uniting against a foreign or domestic oppressor- even though that hardly gets to the essence of what a love of freedom actually is, ie a fundamental human attribute worthy of celebration for its own sake rather than a reaction to intolerable circumstances.

In opera, there are characters so protective of their autonomy that they run away from close emotional relationships- Carmen and Don Giovanni are obvious examples- and they are of course portrayed as diabolically selfish. But- there is a degree of ambivalence in the way they are depicted which allows us to celebrate them for certain virtuous characteristics, courage for example. So perhaps there is a glimmer of hope when it comes to finding positive depictions of an honourable kind of individualism rather than just the purely destructive kind- even if custom dictates that they have to die horribly in the final scene!


----------



## Guest (Oct 23, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., *but is there any music for separation, divorce*, freedom, liberty, independence, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


Yes, there is. Play that famous "Wedding march" backwards and in strict time for the desired effect.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> Yes, there is. Play that famous "Wedding march" backwards and in strict time for the desired effect.


Clever! I believe this is what the ancient Romans did.


----------



## Guest (Oct 23, 2014)

tdc said:


> Clever! I believe this is what the ancient Romans did.


Really? Could you explain further, please?


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> Really? Could you explain further, please?


The Romans in around the time of Augustus use to have elaborate wedding rituals and if they wanted to get divorced they would often perform the exact same ritual backwards.


----------



## Guest (Oct 23, 2014)

Sounds logical to me.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

And one wonders why their society didn't survive??? :lol:


----------



## Guest (Oct 23, 2014)

Mysteries abound, Mr HPowders !


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yet I am grateful to them for abandoning Italy and leaving it to the Italians. A popular tourist stop.


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> Sounds logical to me.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> The first movement (and second movement) of Mahler 10 was begun before Mahler was aware of Alma's relationship with Gropius (though likely completed after), so it really can't be said to stem completely from any of the things you're talking about.


Is it reasonable to say that he had an awareness that something just wasn't right before he had the actual prooof of the affair and that sensation caused an underlying sense of anxiety?


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

tdc said:


> The Romans in around the time of Augustus use to have elaborate wedding rituals and if they wanted to get divorced they would often perform the exact same ritual backwards.


I always thought that when people get divorced, they should resend their wedding invitations, this time with a big "X" stamped on them.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Triplets said:


> Is it reasonable to say that he had an awareness that something just wasn't right before he had the actual proof of the affair and that sensation caused an underlying sense of anxiety?


No, exactly the opposite seems to be the case. He seems to have had absolutely no idea that their marriage was so far gone, because (according to Alma) he was insensitive to her feelings about a lot of things.

Early drafts of the movement did not include that bizarre dissonance near the end, which seems to have been added in response to the finale, which _was_ written at the height of their crisis, but the basic themes and so forth seem to have been written before that.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

brotagonist said:


> There is a lot of music for marriage, tying the knot, coupling, etc., but is there any music for separation, divorce, freedom, liberty,* independence*, autonomy, self-determination, etc.?


In terms of independence, nationalism in music fits the bill, eg. Smetana for the Czechs, Sibelius for the Finns, Verdi for the Italians had significance beyond just music.


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

tdc said:


> The Romans in around the time of Augustus use to have elaborate wedding rituals and if they wanted to get divorced they would often perform the exact same ritual backwards.


If only other things were so easy to reverse.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I wonder if any of Haydn's work represents a sigh of relief after being partially unshackled from the House of Esterhazy by Prinz Anton? Perhaps he was too much of a gentleman to make it overly obvious, despite making his feelings known for the opposite reason in the 'Farewell' symphony.


----------



## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

Many years ago I played organ at a wedding. The bride and groom had asked for verdis "triumphal march". I had kind of blackout and played verdis "prisoners chorus" instead. 
The "prisoners chorus" is a good tune for a bad marriage. Isnt it?


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Walton's Symphony No. 1 was supposedly inspired by tempestuous relationship that had come to a messy end. I'm not really sure if it really meets the OP's criteria though, as much of the music is angry or melancholic. The final movement does have a celebratory nature to it, but that is attributed to the fact that he had gotten involved with someone else and was happy in the new relationship.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Before musicians had unions, there was Haydn and his Farewell Symphony.


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

TalkingHead said:


> Yes, there is. Play that famous "Wedding march" backwards and in strict time for the desired effect.


This made me laugh out loud! :lol: I actually did it too. Interesting, to say the least!



elgars ghost said:


> I wonder if any of Haydn's work represents a sigh of relief after being partially unshackled from the House of Esterhazy by Prinz Anton? Perhaps he was too much of a gentleman to make it overly obvious, despite making his feelings known for the opposite reason in the 'Farewell' symphony.


Haydn did have a bad marriage too, and both he and his wife took mistresses. Some of the turmoil of it might have been reflected in the storm und drang symphonies, and his resolution to continue as a happy man with other options may have been reflected in the return to his more classical style.. But that is mere conjecture.

By the way, if you're going to listen to Haydn's Farewell symphony, do give Scherchen's version a listen! The musicians all say "auf wiedersehn" before leaving -- and you can hear their steps beautifully over the traditional wooden ceiling, before they close a very loud door.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Elgar Pomp and Cirumstance is used to signify national feelings of pride and self determination.
I suspect as political tensions within the European Union increase in the next few years nationalistic feelings are going to increase


----------



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Beethovens Sym #5 is all about the triumph of the individual, freedom etc.


----------

