# Does one have to know the language to enjoy the music?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I personally find Rimsky-Korsakov's Operas I've listened to by now to be very appealing, as well as vocal music in German in general despite speaking neither Russian nor German; is that normal? Does it happen to you as well, or you must be proficient to listen to the music?


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

What if the language were a total invention ? The music and structure (compositional design + performance setting ) would be completely responsible for all meaning .


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

Music with unintelligible lyrics are still enjoyable the same way music with just instruments are enjoyable. That being said, Bach's Passions become really boring if you don't understand what's going on during the recitatives. Thankfully there are English translations I can follow along with


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

English, German and Dutch are no problem. I can usually at least understand some of the French, but there, and in other languages like Italian, Czech, Russian etc I would follow a translated libretto when it's an opera. For songs/Lieder/chansons I usually do not bother, and just enjoy the overall experience.

Likewise, some of my favourite pop/rock songs are in mandarin, thanks to my wife alerting me to them. And likewise, my Singapore staff (1999-2002) really enjoyed some Dutch songs I played for them.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Words in (classical) music are irrelevant to me. So yeah, as long as the music is good


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Some people will be content to have learned the standards of fine taste and virtuosity . It is an accomplishment . What appreciation is there when the composer kneels to the poet ?


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

For me no, not at all. It's how the actual sound of the words fits the music rather than their meaning.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

The composer would be challenged to make an alien's lyrical joke absolutely laughable .


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## Schwammerl (Apr 4, 2020)

I suppose the answer to your question is that one doesn’t have to know the language to appreciate the music on its own: one can enjoy all the things that one appreciates when listening to non-vocal music (the melodies, rhythms etc.) without any understanding of the speech sounds being made by the singer. But that’s not the same thing as appreciating the song. A composer is inspired to write a song by the text of the poem, so it seems obvious that if you have some understanding of the poem and then pay attention to how the composer matches the music to the text, you are engaging with the creative process of the composer on a much deeper level, and it is a much richer experience.

Some so-called “art-songs” actually make little sense without an understanding of the text because they tell a story. One of the most famous of these is Schubert’s Erlkonig. It is an exciting story with four characters in it, telling of a terrifying ride through the night forest by father and his son and ending in the son’s death at the hands of the Erl King. If you didn’t know the story and didn’t have enough German to pick it up during the performance, although you might be impressed by the drama the singer brought to the piece and the terrific piano accompaniment, it would not be much of an experience. Even just knowing the story without understanding any German enhances enormously your experience of the song: you might realise that the piano accompaniment was the galloping hooves of the horse and that when the singer changed register, he was changing characters. If you can understand, even partially, what the singer is saying at any time, your experience is deeper and more satisfying. You could you hear, for example, how Schubert uses different music for the reassuring words of the father and the seductive suggestions of the Erl King.

Not many songs tell a straightforward story like this. It’s much more common for a poem to evoke a mood, to reflect on an experience, describe a situation, recall a loved one etc. But the same principle applies: if you have some knowledge and understanding of the poem, you will get so much more out of the experience of listening to the song. A wonderful and free repository for song texts is lieder.net. It would be hard to find an “art song” that didn’t appear on this site, and many songs have translations into multiple languages. You can display the original language and the translation side-by-side which is extremely useful. Yes, it’s an effort to follow a text whilst listening, but even doing this once deepens your appreciation and pleasure on subsequent listenings.


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## Alinde (Feb 8, 2020)

Personally? Oh, yes. 

I love vocal music and, with each language I've made some sort of acquaintance with, I feel I've discovered a new world. It's not just that I can explore the musical territory more bravely and widely but that I experience what I hear more intensely.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Klingon Opera


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## Barbarella (Jul 24, 2020)

Not if the music is good enough to match the mood of the lyrics. Many compositions have been performed with and without the words. Case in point: Barber’s “Sure on this Shining Night”, with and without James Agee’s poetry.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There is music in words. I often find I don't need to know the literal meaning (opera is different, obviously) but can relate to the word sounds and how the music works with those sounds.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I think that when we cannot understand the words, the voice just becomes another instrument. (And there is vocalise, which has no words at all.) In come cases, trying to understand the words may actually be a distraction. (I do find that when I listen to vocal music, I generally like to have a sense of the context, like the basic plot of the opera and the characters.)


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## neofite (Feb 19, 2017)

This is just another of the multitude of ways in which we are all different. In my case I find that I often prefer to _not_ know what is being said, regardless of the language, even my own, especially with works with which I am not yet very familiar. If there is something that I have already heard many times and really like, then I _might_ (or might not) delve into trying to understand the lyrics, just like I might eventually decide to start studying the score.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

The voice is an instrument, and because it also communicates to us with an intelligible language - if you understand that language - it has a different element to it than a violin or trumpet. 

There are and have been artist who sing in a made up, unintelligible language. In Popular music Lisa Gerrard, and the Cocteau Twins come to mind. Sounds beautiful and no different, to me, than the language of an Italian opera.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I find the answer to this question varies from piece to piece. In my experience a knowledge of the language sometimes does add to the experience but sometimes it's not even a side issue, and I say that as a languages graduate.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

sctraffic2 said:


> Langauge is very improtant to know your song lyrics. through your langeuge ou can feel your song.


Please explain a little bit more , as I don't speak Russian but do enjoy the songs.


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## Pauli91FIN (Jan 15, 2020)

No, not necessarily. Sometimes it can be better not to understand the words and let the music speak for itself.


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## Chibi Ubu (11 mo ago)

I actually like listening to foreign voice with no understanding of the language. I listen for some humanity in vocal expression of emotion. I don't need to know what the lyrics are to be able to enjoy it. With enough exposure, one will come to understand other peoples much better.

I listen to music to feel, to be in the moment.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Chibi Ubu said:


> I actually like listening to foreign voice with no understanding of the language. I listen for some humanity in vocal expression of emotion. I don't need to know what the lyrics are to be able to enjoy it. With enough exposure, one will come to understand other peoples much better.
> 
> I listen to music to feel, to be in the moment.


I have the same specially with the countries we do not talk about at the moment.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Well said by vtpoet, in the thread A question for lovers of J S Bach :


vtpoet said:


> *One listens to Bach for the universality of his music*, not the 18th century religious sentiments of the librettists, deal with people like me in some other way than by gloming onto the 18th century.





vtpoet said:


> It's simply not all that controversial to say that Bach's Lutheranism is gone. Nobody in the 21st century is going to connect with the often trite and mediocre sentiments expressed in Bach's Cantatas the way Bach's congregation did.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

In which cantata are "trite and mediocre sentiments" expressed? This is certainly not the main content or thrust of these cantata texts. They might be contents or sentiments strange or foreign to 21st centur secular people, but this is quite different from "trite and mediocre".
I am not going to defend the texts of these librettists for poetic value, but this sounds like the worst possible kind of 20-21st century chronological arrogance...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Schwammerl said:


> I suppose the answer to your question is that one doesn't have to know the language to appreciate the music on its own: one can enjoy all the things that one appreciates when listening to non-vocal music (the melodies, rhythms etc.) without any understanding of the speech sounds being made by the singer. But that's not the same thing as appreciating the song. *A composer is inspired to write a song by the text of the poem, so it seems obvious that if you have some understanding of the poem and then pay attention to how the composer matches the music to the text, you are engaging with the creative process of the composer on a much deeper level, and it is a much richer experience.*


This post from a couple of years ago captures my feelings on the issue. I always want to know and understand the text of anything I'm listening to. The idea of sitting through an opera or song cycle without this knowledge just seems absurd. I can't imagine wanting to do this since translations, when necessary, are almost always readily available.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

To me it’s common sense that of course you can enjoy the music for its own sake but you can appreciate it in a far deeper level if you actually know the meaning of what the singer is singing. Of course it depends on how profound the words are but generally this is a rule to a greater or lesser extent.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> In which cantata are "trite and mediocre sentiments" expressed? This is certainly not the main content or thrust of these cantata texts. They might be contents or sentiments strange or foreign to 21st centur secular people, but this is quite different from "trite and mediocre".
> I am not going to defend the texts of these librettists for poetic value, but this sounds like the worst possible kind of 20-21st century chronological arrogance...


I certainly agree with you that it is arrogance to dismiss these texts as trite. Many of them deal with death which was a very real part of life at the time they were written. If you had 10 kids only four of them would probably make it to adulthood. So people tended to dwell on these things because they were so much a part of the reality of life. No doubt the people in those days would sneer at the sentiments of some of the words in the songs which are popular today. We need an understanding of the culture in which those cantatas were written.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"I would say that in an opera the poetry must be altogether the obedient daughter of the music. Why are Italian comic operas popular everywhere - in spite of the miserable libretti? … Because the music reigns supreme, and when one listens to it all else is forgotten. An opera is sure of success when the plot is well worked out, the words written solely for the music and not shoved in here and there to suit some miserable rhyme." -Mozart, 13 October 1781



Kreisler jr said:


> In which cantata are "trite and mediocre sentiments" expressed? this sounds like the worst possible kind of 20-21st century chronological arrogance


You could examine the actual thread to get a better idea of what vtpoet meant. Or we could "summon" him and discuss the issue here if you want.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't think one needs to go into details to recognize the stupidity and falsity of the charge "trite and mediocre sentiments". Even a superficial glance at translations without knowledge of early 18th century Lutheranism will easily recognize that what is expressed are not at all trite but strong religious convictions and emotions concerning elemental sentiments like joy, grief, remorse etc. (The exception being stuff like the "Coffee cantata" which is obviously ironic like some sitcoms are today.)
Of course, the language and metaphors and often the religious content are all rather foreign to us but this doesn't change the fact that church cantatas were basically musical sermons and it is a strong distortion to view them as "universal, pure music" because they simply aren't.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't think one needs to go into details to recognize the stupidity and falsity of the charge "trite and mediocre sentiments".


The opinion is subjective, but not stupid. There are people who are turned off by opera plots they consider as silly, but still deeply appreciate the music by hearing it independently. In that thread, vtpoet said he speaks German, but never cared for the libretti of Bach's cantatas; "One listens to Bach for the universality of his music", he said. I remember the member Jacck (a German-speaking Czech) even calling the texts silly.



FastkeinBrahms said:


> a lot of the texts/lyrics he uses are third rate, mostly amateurish and sometimes involuntarily funny best enjoyed in German by non-German speakers.





hammeredklavier said:


> 8:05
> "It is the ancient law; you must die!"
> Yes, yes, yes, come, Lord Jesus, yes, yes, yes, yes"


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> Even a superficial glance at translations without knowledge of early 18th century Lutheranism will easily recognize that what is expressed are not at all trite but strong religious convictions and emotions concerning elemental sentiments like joy, grief, remorse etc.


So does stuff like Reichardt's German songs (which you had dismissed as "naive") and singspiels, it can be argued that there are "strong emotions" expressed in secular context; joy, grief, remorse, and whatnot in them.



> Of course, the language and metaphors and often the religious content are all rather foreign to us but this doesn't change the fact that church cantatas were basically musical sermons and it is a strong distortion to view them as "universal, pure music" because they simply aren't.


Is there much more beyond "vague suggestions" of "joy, grief, remorse.." though? More than there is in purely instrumental music? Plenty of music from Bach's cantatas was transcribed into purely instrumental music and vice-versa, btw. I think Bach would have done it a lot more if he was paid to. I guess this ties into what Forster said in the thread <Do we hear the composers emotional intentions because we are told what we should hear>.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> The opinion is subjective, but not stupid. There are people who are turned off by opera plots they consider as silly, but still deeply appreciate the music by hearing it independently. In that thread, vtpoet said he speaks German, but never cared for the libretti of Bach's cantatas; "One listens to Bach for the universality of his music", he said. I remember the member Jacck (a German-speaking Czech) even calling them silly.


Maybe if you were mourning a dead child or seeking to come to terms with the loss of a loved one who had departed early as many of Bach's listeners, you might not have considered them so title and silly. When I see some of the nonsense which is on the television today I don't think our civilisation is so advanced as to call others trite and silly.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

marlow said:


> If you had 10 kids only four of them would probably make it to adulthood.


Many children died in infancy in those times. I'm not sure why you keep pointing this out. Look at Benjamin Franklin's family or Napoleon's. When Bach lost his first wife, he remarried soon after. It's meaningless to assert parents who had many children and lost some of them as in the case of J.S. Bach and the Mozarts (Leopold and W.A.), "suffered" more than parents like M. Haydn, who lost the only child he had in life (and happened to write a requiem for the death of his employer soon after), for example.



Forster said:


> There is obviously a range of suffering, from the discomfort of the dentist's chair to the trauma of the premature loss of a child or the experience of fighting in the trenches of WW1.
> Compared to some, I've not really "suffered" at all. How would we weigh Messiaen's suffering in a concentration camp against other's experiences?


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marlow said:


> Maybe if you were mourning a dead child or seeking to come to terms with the loss of a loved one who had departed early as many of Bach's listeners, you might not have considered them so title and silly. When I see some of the nonsense which is on the television today I don't think our civilisation is so advanced as to call others trite and silly.


No one has called the "music" trite and silly though, I don't think vtpoet (a fervent admirer of Bach's music) did either. Do you by any chance think that Bach objectively deserves more "special treatment" than guys like Christoph Graupner, Telemann, Reinhard Keiser, etc, who used similar sorts of texts as Bach in this regard? How much suffering Bach went through in his life doesn't really matter objectively, from the point of view of music appreciation. You can imagine in your mind all you want how much of Bach's "life sufferings" are sincerely expressed his musical expressions. ie. How much of them wouldn't have been expressed or present in his music had he not "suffered" in life. It's subjective.



Torkelburger said:


> I deal with this silly sentiment all the time. It permeates through all forms of music, not just classical. It started for me at Berklee where I used to hear things along the lines of, "You have to feel the blues in order to play the blues, man. You've had to have paid your dues. You can't play the blues unless you've suffered." Etc.


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## Roy Fuller (Apr 4, 2019)

Schwammerl said:


> I suppose the answer to your question is that one doesn’t have to know the language to appreciate the music on its own: one can enjoy all the things that one appreciates when listening to non-vocal music (the melodies, rhythms etc.) without any understanding of the speech sounds being made by the singer. But that’s not the same thing as appreciating the song. A composer is inspired to write a song by the text of the poem, so it seems obvious that if you have some understanding of the poem and then pay attention to how the composer matches the music to the text, you are engaging with the creative process of the composer on a much deeper level, and it is a much richer experience.
> 
> Some so-called “art-songs” actually make little sense without an understanding of the text because they tell a story. One of the most famous of these is Schubert’s Erlkonig. It is an exciting story with four characters in it, telling of a terrifying ride through the night forest by father and his son and ending in the son’s death at the hands of the Erl King. If you didn’t know the story and didn’t have enough German to pick it up during the performance, although you might be impressed by the drama the singer brought to the piece and the terrific piano accompaniment, it would not be much of an experience. Even just knowing the story without understanding any German enhances enormously your experience of the song: you might realise that the piano accompaniment was the galloping hooves of the horse and that when the singer changed register, he was changing characters. If you can understand, even partially, what the singer is saying at any time, your experience is deeper and more satisfying. You could you hear, for example, how Schubert uses different music for the reassuring words of the father and the seductive suggestions of the Erl King.
> 
> Not many songs tell a straightforward story like this. It’s much more common for a poem to evoke a mood, to reflect on an experience, describe a situation, recall a loved one etc. But the same principle applies: if you have some knowledge and understanding of the poem, you will get so much more out of the experience of listening to the song. A wonderful and free repository for song texts is lieder.net. It would be hard to find an “art song” that didn’t appear on this site, and many songs have translations into multiple languages. You can display the original language and the translation side-by-side which is extremely useful. Yes, it’s an effort to follow a text whilst listening, but even doing this once deepens your appreciation and pleasure on subsequent listenings.


I agree. The emotion generated by the music without understanding the words would still be significant, but my 7th Symphony, for example, would not have the impact it does without understanding the words.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

gregorx said:


> The voice is an instrument, and because it also communicates to us with an intelligible language - if you understand that language - it has a different element to it than a violin or trumpet.
> 
> There are and have been artist who sing in a made up, unintelligible language. In Popular music Lisa Gerrard, and the *Cocteau Twins* come to mind. Sounds beautiful and no different, to me, than the language of an Italian opera.


You beat me to it in mentioning the Cocteau Twins. Liz Frazer's 'glossolalia' came about in her search for the perfect words to satisfy the emotional side of music. Frustrated by the inability to write suitable lyrics to Robin Guthrie's music she embarked on a relentless search for suitable words in foreign and obscure books and through random sources, writing them out in columns and altering them to fit the music. For those who have never experienced the Cocteaus you should try them. Liz has the voice of an angel (but they were dreary live).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I personally find Rimsky-Korsakov's Operas I've listened to by now to be very appealing, as well as vocal music in German in general despite speaking neither Russian nor German; is that normal? Does it happen to you as well, or you must be proficient to listen to the music?


I think it’s a good idea to know what they’re singing about in 19th and most 20th century music - though I should add that I can’t remember hearing anything by Rimsky Korsakov (I may have just forgotten.) The composers were setting texts. I can assure you that your appreciation will be dramatically improved if you have a good grasp of the text - it is like night and day.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

I think sometimes it's better in foreign and to just enjoy the sounds.
For instance Händel 's English language oratorios. I like the music and sound of the chorus in Messiah but I'd much rather not hear the words.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

Merl said:


> You beat me to it in mentioning the Cocteau Twins. Liz Frazer's 'glossolalia' came about in her search for the perfect words to satisfy the emotional side of music. Frustrated by the inability to write suitable lyrics to Robin Guthrie's music she embarked on a relentless search for suitable words in foreign and obscure books and through random sources, writing them out in columns and altering them to fit the music. For those who have never experienced the Cocteaus you should try them. Liz has the voice of an angel (but they were dreary live).


Oddly enough I opened an email today from the Daily Mash in which The Cocteau Twins were mentioned. I haven't looked at The Daily Mash website or their e-mails since the cringy _Mash Report_ started airing.








Singers who made musical gold by spouting gibberish


NOT an expert in cryptography? Then you'll have minimal chance of working out what these musical geniuses are on about.




www.thedailymash.co.uk


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