# Best piece of Bach ever



## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Which one would it be. I am listening now St Matthews Passion with John Eliot Gardiner conducting and I am stunned.

What would you consider the #1 piece JS Bach ever wrote?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

My favorite is Bach's Mass in B Minor.

But it's impossible for me to say which work is the _greatest_. Basically everything that Bach ever wrote is great, even his pedagogical pieces such as the Inventions and Sinfonias!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

As an individual piece, there are the solo violin Chaconne from the Second Partita in D minor and Fuga from the Unaccompanied Third Sonata in C Major. Both incomparable masterpieces.

Also all the six solo keyboard partitas are great masterpieces.

The entire WTC is an astonishing feat, consisting of masterpiece after masterpiece.

Then there are the magnificent organ preludes and fugues.

Look. This is the greatest composer who ever lived.

Too many magnificent works to choose from as a "best" piece.

Choose your favorites and just be glad you were born after he died and not lived 100 years before he was born.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Bettina said:


> My favorite is Bach's Mass in B Minor.
> 
> But it's impossible for me to say which work is the _greatest_. Basically everything that Bach ever wrote is great, even his pedagogical pieces such as the Inventions and Sinfonias!


Mass in B minor is amazing...


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

hpowders said:


> As an individual piece, there are the solo violin Chaconne from the Second Partita in D minor and Fuga from the Unaccompanied Third Sonata in C Major. Both incomparable masterpieces.
> 
> Also all the six solo keyboard partitas are great masterpieces.
> 
> ...


I agree....... There is no "best" piece. I meant favorite piece.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nevum said:


> I agree....... There is no "best" piece. I meant favorite piece.


There are so many to choose from. Orchestral. Solo violin. Solo keyboard. Solo organ. Choral masses and cantatas. Endless.

If you like the Mass in B minor and the St. Matthew Passion, there are a lot of cantatas to keep you busy for the rest of your life!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

It is a great piece of work, truly great music. It certainly was Bach's personal favorite version of the Passion setting.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Nevum said:


> Which one would it be. I am listening now St Matthews Passion with John Eliot Gardiner conducting and I am stunned.
> What would you consider the #1 piece JS Bach ever wrote?


Lots of great works - 
b Minor Mass is tops for me...


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Wow. This is hard. It's like choosing your favorite child. But if I had to choose one, it would probably be WTC, given that I'm partial to keyboard music.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I also would choose the WTC followed by the Leipzig Chorales.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Choral - _Mass in B minor_ is epic.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2017)

Bach's works are an embarrassment of riches. So many great works. As to which I enjoy the most, then, like many others here, I would have to say the B minor Mass.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

I had never listened St. Mattheus passion and mass in B minor carefully. All I can say is that they are stunning. Astonishing!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I'll leave aside the B Minor Mass because it's almost a compendium rather than a single work (and because it would easily be my favorite).

Instead I'll say the Orgelbüchlein collection. Perhaps cheating still but oh well. The popular BWV 82 is probably my favorite single work, certainly among the cantatas at least.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Impossible to choose, so much wonderful work.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Impossible to choose, so much wonderful work.


Indeed, this exactly!!


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

One of the best.........


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

So many pieces, so hard to decide. If I have to pick one - Jesu, joy of man's desiring. Simple, short, sweet, elegant and timeless.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> So many pieces, so hard to decide. If I have to pick one - Jesu, joy of man's desiring. Simple, short, sweet, elegant and timeless.


If I should start with naming one, I am always find myself kind of a traitor to the rest of his music.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

So many candidates, on another day I might have picked the cello suites, but today I go for the St. Mattheus passion.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

The Dm Chaconne for solo violin. It never fails to bring me to tears and I've heard it about a million times.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Chaconne is considered by some to be the finest piece of music ever written by Bach or by anybody else.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Thats hard. Prob would pick matthew passion if limiyed to one work.

If i could take a 'set' id probably take the brandenburgs + orchestral suites. I love his small orchestra writing.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The St. Matthew Passion, Mass in B minor and Chaconne are all among his finest works, but I am in agreement with many other posters that it doesn't feel right to pick one work. 

I think my favorite at the moment is the WTC.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I also would choose the WTC followed by the Leipzig Chorales.


Except the OP seems to be leaning toward Bach's religious choral works.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

tdc said:


> The St. Matthew Passion, Mass in B minor and Chaconne are all among his finest works, but I am in agreement with many other posters that it doesn't feel right to pick one work.
> 
> I think my favorite at the moment is the WTC.


Mine too. For me that is my favorite Bach for all time. A dazzling display of composing virtuosity in every conceivable key.

If you thought Bach got lucky with Book One....just for you he composed Book Two-even greater if that's possible than Book One-every key a masterpiece of a keyboard prelude and fugue.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Partita No. 1 in B-flat major


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## Border Collie (Mar 9, 2016)

Goldbergs. But will happily listen to anything by Bach. Just concluding another journey through the Cantatas with JEG.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Razumovskymas said:


> Partita No. 1 in B-flat major


This is excellent too. Partitas 1 and 5 are my favorites, but ONLY on harpsichord by the likes of Trevor Pinnock and Kenneth Weiss.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

hpowders said:


> This is excellent too. Partitas 1 and 5 are my favorites, but ONLY on harpsichord by the likes of Trevor Pinnock and Kenneth Weiss.


In that case I don't think you will appreciate my favorite performance being Glenn Goulds' ;-)

I'll listen to the harpsichord versions!!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

It's hard to avoid the old cliché, "the best Bach piece is the last one I listened to". To put that to the test, I've literally just selected one of his pieces at random, the cantata BWV86 _Wahrlich, wahrlich ich sage euch_, which I only listen to once in a blue moon. Sure enough, I only needed to get to the second track (the alto aria "Ich will doch wohl Rosen brechen"), and Bach's genius blew me away again.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

And of course _The Goldberg Variation_ is very great too.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

It's hard to really have a favorite, not just because it's all good but because of the formats he worked with. To me the Mass in B Minor and St. Matthew Passion are just arbitrary borders in an ocean of great choruses and arias; if it's fair to select a compilation as the "single" best work then the arbitrary compilation I choose is my playlist of handpicked favorites from the cantatas and the seemingly underrated motets.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> It's hard to really have a favorite, not just because it's all good but because of the formats he worked with. To me the Mass in B Minor and St. Matthew Passion are just arbitrary borders in an ocean of great choruses and arias; if it's fair to select a compilation as the "single" best work then the arbitrary compilation I choose is my playlist of handpicked favorites from the cantatas and the seemingly underrated motets.


St. Johns passion is as good. Stunning as well.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Reading this as "what is your favorite Bach piece" ...

I go with *Partita No. 3* for solo violin. The _Preludio_ is easily the finest (read: cleanest) piece of music I know. The thing just makes me feel human and real and sentimental and alive. It is incredible. And then his *third sonata for violin*, the final movement is equally impressing.

Oh, but then his *Violin Concerto No. 2*, in E Major -- this thing kills me. Reminds me of a pleasant place, many years ago. Etched into my mind. Forever.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Don't forget what Bach himself said that anyone could do what he did if they just worked hard enough! :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> And of course _The Goldberg Variation_ is very great too.


Is one right now and I agree totally.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Love his Cello Suite no 1. Soothing and warming on a cold evening!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Picking one of the masses or passions or entire books is cheating a bit, but how can one not with this repertoire?

My favorite might be a tie between The Art of the Fugue (also cheating perhaps) and Cantata No. 80, _Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott_, but the latter only the version a bit corrupted with trumpets and timpani by W.F. Bach. Impure or not, it's a life changing piece.


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## keymasher (Nov 10, 2016)

For me, I'd also have to say the Goldberg Variations for personal reasons. Appreciation for Bach and his music is a relatively recent development for me. I knew and enjoyed the WTC and French Suites well enough, but it wasn't until listening to Goldberg over and over that I became truly in awe of him as a composer. The Variations then inspired me to explore and study additional Bach works that further kindled my love and interest of his music.

So for me, my vote goes Goldberg Variations primarily on account of this work being my Bach gateway drug.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

The Bach works that I've enjoyed the most are the *Goldberg Variations* and the *WTC*.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

If I can choose a greatest work by an artist, the artist is not great.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The Chaconne is considered by some to be the finest piece of music ever written . . .


_____________

By who?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

JACE said:


> The Bach works that I've enjoyed the most are the *Goldberg Variations* and the *WTC*.


Agree, it's impossible not to.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

keymasher said:


> For me, I'd also have to say the Goldberg Variations for personal reasons. Appreciation for Bach and his music is a relatively recent development for me. I knew and enjoyed the WTC and French Suites well enough, but it wasn't until listening to Goldberg over and over that I became truly in awe of him as a composer. The Variations then inspired me to explore and study additional Bach works that further kindled my love and interest of his music.
> 
> So for me, my vote goes Goldberg Variations primarily on account of this work being my Bach gateway drug.


I agree--the Goldberg variations are amazing! Do you have a favorite recording/performance?

My favorite is the classic Glenn Gould recording. Simone Dinnerstein comes in at a close second for me. Third place goes to Vladimir Feltsman.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Brandenburg Concertos. There's a joy and life-affirming vitality in them that is difficult to find in Classical Music after Beethoven (thanks Beethoven).


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> _____________
> 
> By who?


Some quotes I found through a quick search...

"*On one stave, for a small instrument, the man writes a whole world of the deepest thoughts and most powerful feelings. If I imagined that I could have created, even conceived the piece, I am quite certain that the excess of excitement and earth-shattering experience would have driven me out of my mind*." 
Johannes Brahms, Discussion of the Chaconne in Bach's Partita for Violin #2. Litzman, Berthold (editor). "Letters of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms, 1853-1896". Hyperion Press, 1979, p. 16.

"*If I had to vote for what is the greatest piece of music ever conceived by the human mind, I'd have a hard time choosing between the Chaconne that ends Bach's second partita for unaccompanied violin or the his Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue for the piano*."
Harry Markowitz, On Bach[1]

*"... the greatest structure for solo violin that exists."*
Yehudi Menuhin, On Chaconne, In Menuhin's autobiography Unfinished Journey, p. 236
*
"not just one of the greatest pieces of music ever written, but one of the greatest achievements of any man in history. It's a spiritually powerful piece, emotionally powerful, structurally perfect."*
Joshua Bell

In addition to these quotes I recall seeing Pavel Steidl in concert and before he performed the Chaconne he mentioned that many consider it the finest piece ever composed for solo instrument.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Surely not the greatest, but my favorite Bach piece is the Musical Offering, pure essence and sum of Bach's artistry to my ears. I'm never tired of this piece.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

tdc said:


> Some quotes I found through a quick search...
> 
> "*On one stave, for a small instrument, the man writes a whole world of the deepest thoughts and most powerful feelings. If I imagined that I could have created, even conceived the piece, I am quite certain that the excess of excitement and earth-shattering experience would have driven me out of my mind*."
> Johannes Brahms, Discussion of the Chaconne in Bach's Partita for Violin #2. Litzman, Berthold (editor). "Letters of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms, 1853-1896". Hyperion Press, 1979, p. 16.
> ...


Well, of course Menuhin and Bell would pick a violin piece as the best piece of music (although the former did qualify it being best for violin) 

I had no idea who Harry Markowitz is until I googled him to find out he was an economist! Unless this is another Harry Markowitz google is not as fond of.

Yeah, Brahms was known to worship Bach's music.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Well, of course Menuhin and Bell would pick a violin piece as the best piece of music (although the latter did qualify it being best for violin)
> 
> I had no idea who Harry Markowitz is until I googled him to find out he was an economists! Unless this is another Harry Markowitz google is not as fond of.
> 
> Yeah, Brahms was known to worship Bach's music.


I didn't realize that, but you're right he is an economist. :lol:

I found that quote here:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Partita_for_Violin_No._2_(Bach)

Oh well he seems like an intelligent guy anyway.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Heliogabo said:


> Surely not the greatest, but my favourite Bach piece is the Musical Offering, pure essence and sum of Bach's artistry to my ears. I'm never tired of this piece.


I can agree with you, from time to time good listening.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

tdc said:


> Some quotes I found through a quick search...
> 
> "*On one stave, for a small instrument, the man writes a whole world of the deepest thoughts and most powerful feelings. If I imagined that I could have created, even conceived the piece, I am quite certain that the excess of excitement and earth-shattering experience would have driven me out of my mind*."
> Johannes Brahms, Discussion of the Chaconne in Bach's Partita for Violin #2. Litzman, Berthold (editor). "Letters of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms, 1853-1896". Hyperion Press, 1979, p. 16.
> ...


It's really Harry Markowitz. Who is he?

(Sorry I see someone else has made the same point)


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> It's really Harry Markowitz. Who is he?
> 
> (Sorry I see someone else has made the same point)


Well KenOC's post did say 'considered by some'...not 'considered by some musicians/composers'.

Either way feel free to disregard his quote, and I think the point still stands by the other quotes. I was just demonstrating that it is not that hard to come across that kind of opinion in regards to that piece of music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

tdc said:


> Well KenOC's post did say 'considered by some'...not 'considered by some musicians/composers'.
> 
> Either way feel free to disregard his quote, and I think the point still stands by the other quotes. I was just demonstrating that it is not that hard to come across that kind of opinion in regards to that piece of music.


I wonder why this piece is so well loved rather than the big fugue in bwv 1005, for example. Something to do with the ubiquitous Busoni maybe.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Avey said:


> Reading this as "what is your favorite Bach piece" ...
> 
> I go with *Partita No. 3* for solo violin. The _Preludio_ is easily the finest (read: cleanest) piece of music I know. The thing just makes me feel human and real and sentimental and alive. It is incredible. And then his *third sonata for violin*, the final movement is equally impressing.


I thought these were really provocative choices, and so thanks for making me think about them. The third violin partita is a piece of music I'm exploring a bit right now via recordings.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> I wonder why this piece is so well loved rather than the big fugue in bwv 1005, for example. Something to do with the ubiquitous Busoni maybe.


You just haven't clicked with it yet. If you ever do you'll understand. I think everyone has pieces of music like that, which are widely considered great but we don't have a personal connection to, I sure do.

I considered the Chaconne among the best compositions before I even knew who Busoni was, or before I had ever heard any of the famous quotes about it. I think it just has something really special about it for those who make a connection with it. For those who prefer some other great Bach piece there is certainly nothing wrong with that.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Oh I like the chaconne, though I much prefer it in the context of the whole partita rather than a bleeding chunk (I think it's a well integrated suite potentially, if played right.) I just think that the big fugue from the third sonata is just as impressive.


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## keymasher (Nov 10, 2016)

Bettina said:


> I agree--the Goldberg variations are amazing! Do you have a favorite recording/performance?
> 
> My favorite is the classic Glenn Gould recording. Simone Dinnerstein comes in at a close second for me. Third place goes to Vladimir Feltsman.


My go-to recording is Perahia's. I do really enjoy the 1955 Gould recording as well, and need to become better acquainted his later one. I'm not at all familiar with Simone Dinnerstein's, so thank you for the recommendation. I also do find Tureck's 1957 and 1988 recordings to be absolutely sublime. Maybe a slight edge to the '88 on account of the tempo.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So have we come to a conclusion as to Bach's best piece ever?

I'm beginning to lose patience.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

hpowders said:


> So have we come to a conclusion as to Bach's best piece ever?
> 
> I'm beginning to lose patience.


This one


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

The Four Orchestral Suites (esp the B minor one with the flute obbligato)

The Magnificat

Mass in B minor

Brandenburg Concerti

Cantata BWV 208 Was mir behagt, ist nur die muntre Jagd, BWV 208 with the wonderful soprano aria and two flutes "Schafe können sicher weiden."

Toccata in D minor

I guess the man is too great for favorite-picking.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George

PS Oh yeah, the Italian Concerto


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## GodotsArrived (Jan 12, 2017)

How about the Cello Concertos? 

(The OP is playing fast and loose! Which Bach?)


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

Contrapunctus XIV


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

No consensus yet? Bach's best piece, ever?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm having a hard time reaching consensus with myself.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

hpowders said:


> No consensus yet? Bach's best piece, ever?


Who needs consensus? He wrote a lot of very fine music. If you took a broad poll, Toccata and Fugue in D minor would probably win by virtue of recognizability and duration. In a forum like this, probably Mass in B minor or Well-Tempered Clavier would take it, based on the responses here and other posting trends. Still, you can listen to all the pieces mentioned and find some amazing tunes.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

GodotsArrived said:


> (The OP is playing fast and loose! Which Bach?)


Good point!  Capitalizing on the ambiguity of the thread title, I'll gladly take this opportunity to post my favorite piece by _CPE _Bach: Fantasia for Clavichord in C Minor. CPE might not have been quite as good as his brilliant daddy, but in my opinion this piece comes pretty close!


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## GodotsArrived (Jan 12, 2017)

Bettina said:


> Good point!  Capitalizing on the ambiguity of the thread title, I'll gladly take this opportunity to post my favorite piece by _CPE _Bach: Fantasia for Clavichord in C Minor. CPE might not have been quite as good as his brilliant daddy, but in my opinion this piece comes pretty close!


And there was me, waiting for someone to tell me Bach didn't write any cello concertos


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Barelytenor said:


> The Four Orchestral Suites (esp the B minor one with the flute obbligato)
> 
> The Magnificat
> 
> ...


That's a damn good list, I agree!

Add all the surviving concertos for instruments (violin(s), harpsichord(s) and arrangements of them). The Triple Concerto is wonderful too, it's like a "Brandenburg Concerto no.7".


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Probably one of his mistresses!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

bharbeke said:


> Who needs consensus? He wrote a lot of very fine music. If you took a broad poll, Toccata and Fugue in D minor would probably win by virtue of recognizability and duration. In a forum like this, probably Mass in B minor or Well-Tempered Clavier would take it, based on the responses here and other posting trends. Still, you can listen to all the pieces mentioned and find some amazing tunes.


Well isn't that the thread title? Best piece of Bach ever? Why sit on the fence-us when one can achieve consensus?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

bharbeke said:


> Who needs consensus? He wrote a lot of very fine music. If you took a broad poll, Toccata and Fugue in D minor would probably win by virtue of recognizability and duration. In a forum like this, probably Mass in B minor or Well-Tempered Clavier would take it, based on the responses here and other posting trends. Still, you can listen to all the pieces mentioned and find some amazing tunes.


Sharp analysation, well done.


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## 433 (Jan 4, 2017)

But every Bach piece is the best ever....


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

433 said:


> But every Bach piece is the best ever....


You are probably right!


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## charles curran (Jan 14, 2017)

Do you have, or know of a collection of great choral passages, from Cantatas, Mass, Passion????.....
I love the entire works, but would like to a collection.

It was the cantatas that first hooked me on Bach
I have many cantata recordings (Rilling, Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Parrot, Suzuki...) 
and want to get a complete set, but which?
I tend towards Leonhardt(harnoncourt)
I first heard the cantatas with Rilling, but today prefer leaner orig instruments versions, even OVPP.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Obviously has to be one of his keyboard works, probably not The Art of Fugue because somehow people are able to convince themselves that that maybe isn't a keyboard work, so I guess that makes it WTC vol 2.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

433 said:


> But every Bach piece is the best ever....


Best comment ever.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Magnum Miserium said:


> ....... probably not The Art of Fugue because somehow people are able to convince themselves that that maybe isn't a keyboard work......


Whether it was intended as a keyboard work or not, does not depend upon what people are able to convince themselves of.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would have loved to hear what Bach could have done with Beethoven's Choral Fantasy.

Right up Bach's alley: a virtuoso keyboard fantasia followed by a grand choral utterance.

Perhaps he could have raised this disappointing (for Beethoven) piece to the "Best piece of Bach ever".


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

premont said:


> Whether it was intended as a keyboard work or not, does not depend upon what people are able to convince themselves of.


Intent doesn't matter effect does.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Nevum said:


> Which one would it be. I am listening now St Matthews Passion with John Eliot Gardiner conducting and I am stunned.


Yes, I listened to the St. Mathew's Passion with JEGgy conducting once and I too was stunned. Stunned at how poorly such a great piece of music could be performed.  Try Karl Richter. It's a "religious" experience, as is all of Bach's choral pieces conducted by Richter, especially the Mass in B Minor.



Bettina said:


> I agree--the Goldberg variations are amazing! Do you have a favorite recording/performance?
> 
> My favorite is the classic Glenn Gould recording. Simone Dinnerstein comes in at a close second for me. Third place goes to Vladimir Feltsman.


Yes, the Gould is the gold standard. I am not familiar with Dinnerstein, but given the fact that you mentioned Feltsman, which is also one of my favorite performances of this great piece, I will check out Dinnerstein. He will be my 19th version of it.

If you haven't listened to Andrei Gavrilov's Goldbergs yet, I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend it. Also, you can't go wrong with Bronislawa Kawalla. Outstanding as well.

V


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Varick said:


> Yes, I listened to the St. Mathew's Passion with JEGgy conducting once and I too was stunned. Stunned at how poorly such a great piece of music could be performed.  Try Karl Richter. It's a "religious" experience, as is all of Bach's choral pieces conducted by Richter, especially the Mass in B Minor.
> 
> V


Interesting. I'm not too keen on Gardiner's St Matthew as it appears to me to lack the spiritual quality necessary. Better to me are Harnoncourt and Herreweghe 1. Or Richter in 1958. His later version is too marmoreal


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Interesting. I'm not too keen on Gardiner's St Matthew as it appears to me to lack the spiritual quality necessary. Better to me are Harnoncourt and Herreweghe 1. Or Richter in 1958. His later version is too marmoreal


Yes, I should have mentioned the 1958 version. I don't believe his later version (1970?) is available, not that I've searched for it lately. If I do come by it, I will pick it up. I would like to hear it and see if I agree with your marmoreal comment. I have found when it comes especially to choral pieces, very little of what Richter did wasn't great.

V


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

I would pick The Art of Fugue as the "best", for a couple of reasons.

By not specifying the instruments, the composer didn't need to consider the physical limitations of any mean of producing the score into sound. As such, the whole work was more theoretical and fit to the mathematical symmetries, which Bach was known for and haven't ever matched by any composer. Therefore, The Art of Fugue can be viewed as the essence of theoretical purist side of Bach as composer, who could maintain mathematical symmetries while putting emotional power and sheer beauty in his music.

Some references:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Fugue Wiki page for The Art of Fugue
http://www.jstor.org/stable/43030058?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents The Mathematical Architecture of Bach's "The Art of Fugue", by Loïc Sylvestre and Marco Costa, free online after registration


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Best piece of Bach? Can you imagine Bach saying, "Ya wan' a piece o' me??" :lol:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

satoru said:


> I would pick The Art of Fugue as the "best", for a couple of reasons.
> 
> By not specifying the instruments, the composer didn't need to consider the physical limitations of any mean of producing the score into sound. As such, the whole work was more theoretical and fit to the mathematical symmetries, which Bach was known for and haven't ever matched by any composer. Therefore, The Art of Fugue can be viewed as the essence of theoretical purist side of Bach as composer, who could maintain mathematical symmetries while putting emotional power and sheer beauty in his music.
> 
> ...


I think he was constrained by what is executable in a single keyboard, Gustav Leonhardt wrote a book about this.

The 1742 version of Art of Fugue at least was not intended to be theoretical, there are autographs where Bach rewrote it specifically for single keyboard. The music in that first version makes a good recital, to me it feels cyclical.

As far as "mathematical symmetries" are concerned, well we need to think about Ockeghem, Josquin, Gombert, Obrecht. . . .


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> I think he was constrained by what is executable in a single keyboard, Gustav Leonhardt wrote a book about this.
> 
> The 1742 version of Art of Fugue at least was not intended to be theoretical, there are autographs where Bach rewrote it specifically for single keyboard. The music in that first version makes a good recital, to me it feels cyclical.
> 
> As far as "mathematical symmetries" are concerned, well we need to think about Ockeghem, Josquin, Gombert, Obrecht. . . .


Hi Mandryka,

After doing some more search on web, I run across the site below, which states that mathematical structure of The Art of Fugue was influenced by Bach joining a society devoted to the Pythagorean philosophy of music in 1747. I think your idea about 1742 version nicely matches with this observation.

Also, thanks for bringing Renaissance giants for their mathematical symmetries. I need to study more of their work to make any comment, though. Do you know any large scale music written with such mathematical structure after the Art of Fugue?

http://www.kunstderfuge.com/bach.htm "J.S. Bach's The Art of Fugue: An Enigma Resolved"


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Varick said:


> Yes, the Gould is the gold standard. I am not familiar with Dinnerstein, but given the fact that you mentioned Feltsman, which is also one of my favorite performances of this great piece, I will check out Dinnerstein. He will be my 19th version of it.


Do you like how Feltsman handles the repeats in the Goldberg Variations.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> Do you like how Feltsman handles the repeats in the Goldberg Variations.


This wasn't addressed to me, but I'm going to answer it anyway! 

I do enjoy Feltsman's approach to the repeats. I like how he plays in different octaves and adds ornamentation.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

With my relative unfamiliarity of Bach, coupled with not quite enjoying classical singing barring a few exceptions, i dont have the audacity to jugde his greatest piece. But my favourite is the Double Violin Concerto by far. Its so wonderfully harmonic and exceptionally expressive for its era(to me), with a never ending amount of details one keeps discovering, as he/she keeps coming back, the violins spar perfectly with each other as the melodies is woven together. In fact its my favourite Baroque piece only rivaled by Handels Concerti Grossi. It is truly an example of his brilliance and craftmanship.


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