# Orchestra/conductor combos that never happened, but should have



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Recently a random thought crossed my mind. Suppose Herbert von Karajan had gotten the opportunity to conduct the Chicago Symphony? Two of my favorite orchestral sounds ever are the Solti/CSO and Karajan/BPO sounds. Solti did get to conduct the BPO, but I cannot find a single recording of, nor even a historical reference to, Karajan conducting the CSO. The possibility fascinates me. Say what you want about HvK's interpretations; what can't be denied is that he really made the BPO sound beautiful. But what if he had tried to translate that sound over to the Chicago Symphony? By nature the American and European sounds of the time were decidedly different, and Chicago and Berlin may have just been the paramount representatives of their respective continents. It would have been fascinating to see what HvK would do with that mighty CSO brass section.
So, are there any orchestra/conductor matchups you wish had happened, or wish there was more of?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

It would have been cool if, somehow, towards the end of his life, Gustav Mahler had come to America and conducted the New York Philharmonic.

Oh wait . . .


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

That's a food for thought. I will say:


*Muti and the New York Philharmonic* (esp. during the turbulent 1980s when the orchestra became decidedly slipshod). Muti was considered at one point, but it did not work out.
*Gustavo Dudamel* and the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony (it still may happen down the road).
*Jascha Horenstein and the London Philharmonic*: with his unique yet highly regarded Bruckner and Mahler credentials, it would have been interesting to see how he would have molded the orchestra other than Tennstedt, Haitink, and Solti.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> Suppose Herbert von Karajan had gotten the opportunity to conduct the Chicago Symphony?


It is true that he never did, unfortunately. That would have been very interesting, to say the least, like you suggested.









It's also a shame that Leonard Bernstein conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker & the Chicago Symphony only once each. Considering the tremendous performances that he coaxed out of each of them on those one occasions (Mahler 9 and Shostakovich 7, respectively), it's easy to let the imagination run wild with what else could have been.....


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I seem to remember reading that HvK had more than a little to do with Solti & Bernstein not being asked to conduct the BPO.

On another what-if scenario, Georg Solti and the Los Angeles Philharmonic in the early 60's. He was hired but backed out prior the start of his tenure when the woman who ran the orchestra hired Zubin Mehta as an assistant without Solti's permission. _Mozart in the Jungle_ has nothing on the management shenanigans of the LA Philharmonic over the last 50+ years!


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Becca said:


> I seem to remember reading that HvK had more than a little to do with Solti & Bernstein not being asked to conduct the BPO.


Yes, Karajan's unfortunate membership in the Nazi Party plus the fact that Solti and Bernstein were both Jewish will always fuel speculation about why the three of them didn't guest conduct each other's orchestras more often.

Considering that both Solti and Bernstein _did_ conduct the Berliner Philharmoniker, however, even if it was only once apiece, the fact remains, however, that they were, after all, not completely shut out, where Karajan, on the other hand, definitely never conducted the Chicago Symphony, nor did he (to my knowledge) ever conduct the New York Philharmonic. (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about that last detail.)

I personally prefer to keep telling myself that, over the years, a traveling conductor develops a relationship with a group of orchestras that he's comfortable with and who is comfortable with him, and if they both feel like got enough orchestras and/or conductors to keep them busy, then it would be very easy to just keep rotating through the stable every year or so, without adding anything/anyone new in the process. Maybe. But that's just speculation on my part.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

For the last few years I've been getting the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall program which shows a representative sample of those who have guest conducted the BPO over the last 12+ years. It seems that they have 3 categories of guests, those who come every year (Thielemann, Haitink, Dudamel, Harding, Mehta, Blomstedt et.al.), those who show up every two or three years (Jansons, Mena, Sokhiev, Bychkov etc.) and those who come once (or maybe twice) then disappear. That is probably the norm for most major orchestras.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

dsphipps100 said:


> Considering that both Solti and Bernstein _did_ conduct the Berliner Philharmoniker, however, even if it was only once apiece, the fact remains, however, that they were, after all, not completely shut out, where Karajan, on the other hand, definitely never conducted the Chicago Symphony, nor did he (to my knowledge) ever conduct the New York Philharmonic. (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about that last detail.)


Karajan did in fact conduct the New York Philharmonic, but only on one occasion. As far as I know this was his only appearance with an American orchestra. There is actually a recording of it too; he did Beethoven's 9th (yes...) with them featuring Leontyne Price as soprano(YESS!!!). Now I really want this cd: https://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc222.html
I've never heard this recording but I'm very very curious about it. I will listen to it soon because I want to see how HvK does with the American orchestral sound.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Solti conducted the BPO on more than several occasions. June 1959, March 1993, March 1994, January 1996. It's no secret that HvK often blocked him from doing so during his "BPO reign".


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2016)

Friendship between conductors is not evident.I know that Haitink and Mariss Jansons have a real friendship but its not common practise among directors to be friends.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Karajan's membership of the Nazi party certainly hindered his career in America and that is maybe one reason he didn't conduct the CSO. Solti recounts how he was never invited to Saltzberg Festival until just before HvK's death when Karajan invited him to conduct there. He says d that he never knew the reason. Of course after Karajan suddenly died, Solti took over the conducting of Ballo.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dsphipps100 said:


> Yes, Karajan's unfortunate membership in the Nazi Party plus the fact that Solti and Bernstein were both Jewish will always fuel speculation about why the three of them didn't guest conduct each other's orchestras more often.
> 
> Considering that both Solti and Bernstein _did_ conduct the Berliner Philharmoniker, however, even if it was only once apiece, the fact remains, however, that they were, after all, not completely shut out, where Karajan, on the other hand, definitely never conducted the Chicago Symphony, nor did he (to my knowledge) ever conduct the New York Philharmonic. (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about that last detail.)
> 
> I personally prefer to keep telling myself that, over the years, a traveling conductor develops a relationship with a group of orchestras that he's comfortable with and who is comfortable with him, and if they both feel like got enough orchestras and/or conductors to keep them busy, then it would be very easy to just keep rotating through the stable every year or so, without adding anything/anyone new in the process. Maybe. But that's just speculation on my part.


Karajan had little time for guest conducting. He preferred to take his own orchestra with him! He did conduct the Cleveland Orchestra during Szell's tenure there.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> Karajan did in fact conduct the New York Philharmonic, but only on one occasion. As far as I know this was his only appearance with an American orchestra. There is actually a recording of it too; he did Beethoven's 9th (yes...) with them featuring Leontyne Price as soprano(YESS!!!). Now I really want this cd: https://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc222.html
> I've never heard this recording but I'm very very curious about it. I will listen to it soon because I want to see how HvK does with the American orchestral sound.





Vaneyes said:


> Solti conducted the BPO on more than several occasions. June 1959, March 1993, March 1994, January 1996. It's no secret that HvK often blocked him from doing so during his "BPO reign".





DavidA said:


> Karajan had little time for guest conducting. He preferred to take his own orchestra with him! He did conduct the Cleveland Orchestra during Szell's tenure there.


Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I'd love to have seen an old Beethoven, preferably played by Gary Oldman, conducting Joh................I mean 4'..........ugh. I can't bring myself to make the joke, although the though of Oldman's character being magically whisked away to and random podium and rifling through a blank score, mumbling and tossing papers, while the orchestra and audience stare in wonder. Come on. Don't tell me nobody's ever thought the same thing? Perhaps in far less detail.

Edit: Does hinting at fall under Wood's Law? I should hope not.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

scratchgolf said:


> I'd love to have seen an old Beethoven, preferably played by Gary Oldman, conducting Joh................I mean 4'..........ugh. I can't bring myself to make the joke, although the though of Oldman's character being magically whisked away to and random podium and rifling through a blank score, mumbling and tossing papers, while the orchestra and audience stare in wonder. Come on. Don't tell me nobody's ever thought the same thing? Perhaps in far less detail.


No no no...I was hoping I would be able to dig out of some obscure corner of YouTube a recording of Maximianno Cobra conducting.....I'll say it for you.....4'33. Only in his case it would be nine minutes long.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Karajan/Chicago? All I know is I detested the German oboe vibrato when Karajan conducted the Berlin Philharmonic. I much prefer the purer American oboe sound. As long as Karajan wouldn't tamper with the oboist, I'm in.

Now who's going to jolt HvK back to life. Otherwise, this is all pure conjecture....as in MEANINGLESS!!!


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

hpowders said:


> this is all pure conjecture....as in MEANINGLESS!!!


And yet, here you are, participating in this "meaningless" thread....


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Karajan/Chicago? All I know is I detested the German oboe vibrato when Karajan conducted the Berlin Philharmonic. I much prefer the purer American oboe sound. As long as Karajan wouldn't tamper with the oboist, I'm in.
> 
> Now who's going to jolt HvK back to life. Otherwise, this is all pure conjecture....as in MEANINGLESS!!!


You're right, this is pure conjecture.....which is what makes it so much fun. Also note the title of the thread and the last sentence of my OP- what orchestra/conductor combos do YOU think would have been interesting? The Karajan/Chicago combo was just MY own example, though I'm extremely grateful for everyone else's opinion on that possibility. If you know of any others, by all means, share them with us!
On the oboe vibrato- I personally loved it. Not in every single situation, but on a lot of things I think it was a very nice touch, and trademark characteristic of HvK/Berlin.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

For me personally, Karajan's Berliner Philharmoniker was my favorite orchestra in the history of the world. Everything about the way they sounded back then was absolutely _perfect_. Mind you, that doesn't mean that Karajan's interpretations were necessarily home runs, but wow, that orchestra sounded absolutely fabulous. With the right conductor on the podium, nobody else could touch them, especially in Romantic/Post-Romantic literature. And it wasn't just German repertoire either. Their Daphnis et Chloe with Pierre Boulez is, to my ears, the best Daphnis ever recorded. And then their Mahler 9th under Karajan (the DDD version) is one of my all-time favorite Mahler recordings. How many orchestras could be at the top of both German/Austrian music and also on the top of French music? Not too many, I'll wager.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I wish Horenstein had been hired as principal conductor of any first-rank orchestra.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Karajan conducted the Cleveland orchestra, but only when it was on tour once, I believe in Salzburg . 
Solti was appointed music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic but resigned in anger before taking over because the young Zubin Mehta had been appointed I believe associate conductor there without his consent .
But Mehta did great work in Los Angeles , building it into a world class orchestra and was able to g et a contract with Decca records .


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Karajan was no saint , but I don't think the reason Bernstein and Solti rarely if every appeared with the Berlin Philharmonic was because they were Jewish . There is no evidence of Karajan being an
anti-semite . He joined the Nazi party purely as a formality , and would not have been able to advance his career otherwise .
And Daniel Barenboim had been a regular with the BPO for many years under Karajan, and nearly missed out being appointed his successor there .


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wilhelm Furtwangler was appointed music director of the Chicago symphony some time after the end of WW 2, but many eminent musicians, including Arthur Rubinstein and others , objected very strongly because of his alleged involvement with the Nazi regime despite the fact that he never joined the party and helped many Jewish musicians to escape Nazi Germany , and the orchestra's administration
withdrew the appointment . 
Who knows what could have happened with Furtwangler and this orchestra ! His only US appearances had been with the New York Philharmonic in the 1920s , and the critical reaction was largely enthusiastic . Furtwangler was scheduled to conduct the BPO's 1955 American tour but unfortunately died in late 1954 , and Karajan , who had just been appointed to succeed him, was the conductor .
There was some flack during this tour by critics and others because of Karajan's membership in the Nazi party , but the tour was a triumph despite this.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

superhorn said:


> And Daniel Barenboim had been a regular with the BPO for many years under Karajan, and nearly missed out being appointed his successor there .


This is an excellent point.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

superhorn said:


> And Daniel Barenboim had been a regular with the BPO for many years under Karajan, and nearly missed out being appointed his successor there .


Actually he barely missed out on being _Claudio Abbado's_ successor


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