# The Terrible Revenge of Saint-Saëns



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

This is what I've been thinking about this fellow; he has to be one of the most underrated composers in all of history. Wtf? Incredible music composed in the style of romantic Beethoven, and what superb piano music. Rumor has it that he was at the famous premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and that he stood up to object after the first few notes. He was surely a fundamentalist, but what lovely music. 

Do you think Saint-Saëns is neglected and overlooked by classical music fans in general? Do you think he should be more popular or does he deserve to fall into obscurity?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Klassic said:


> This is what I've been thinking about this fellow; he has to be one of the most underrated composers in all of history. Wtf? Incredible music composed in the style of romantic Beethoven, and what superb piano music. Rumor has it that he was at the famous premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and that he stood up to object after the first few notes. He was surely a fundamentalist, but what lovely music.
> 
> Do you think Saint-Saëns is neglected and overlooked by classical music fans in general? Do you think he should be more popular or does he deserve to fall into obscurity?


Neither. He's in the right position.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I think he is just as popular as he deserves to be. Except his Piano Concerto 4, I don't think that one gets enough attention


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

He doesn't nearly have the qualitative historical status he deserves. This dude belongs next to all the Greats.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> I think he is just as popular as he deserves to be. Except his Piano Concerto 4, I don't think that one gets enough attention


Yes that is a great work...I always advocate for it and actually even like it more than no. 2. Violin Concerto 3 is also phenomenal.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Klassic said:


> He doesn't nearly have the qualitative historical status he deserves. This dude belongs next to all the Greats.


So where is the disconnect?


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Let's not forget about the powerful and totally awesome opening to his 2nd piano concerto: _did someone say they needed more Beethoven?_


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Saint-Saens' problem is that he was somewhat anachronistic. The quality of his writing was of the highest order, to be sure, but the reaction of too many of his contemporaries was to yawn and say, "been there, done that".


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

Saint-Saens is very popular and not remotely underrated.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> So where is the disconnect?


I once gave a lecture to a group of first graders, there were about 100 kids in the room. I asked, 'how many people here know who Beethoven was?' More than 90% of the kids raised their hands. I asked, 'how many people here know who Mozart was?' Again, more than 90% raised their hands, but when I asked about Saint-Saens not even one kid raised his hand.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Apart from maybe the two cello sonatas and (if we categorise it as a chamber work) the ubiquitous _Carnival of the Animals_, Saint-Saëns' chamber output generally seems to go under the radar a bit, but collectively it was as excellent as it was varied - I'd say it was in overall quality equal to that of his fellow countryman and near-contemporary Fauré. The three late wind sonatas deserve special mention and were a noble conclusion to his large output. He also composed many exquisite chamber miniatures which deserve a collective release in their own right rather than being used as fill-ups to larger works.

He was undoubtedly an extremely gifted man who seemed able to compose for all genres with relatively little effort but he was stronger in some departments than others, though - the piano works I've heard (mainly for two pianos or duet) are OK as salon music goes but amount to hardly more than that and his operatic output is considered spotty despite the enduring popularity of _Samson et Dalila_.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

A find him to be a fine composer (I like very much his Urbs Roma Symphony, his early piano concerti, and his First Cello Concerto in A). However beautiful his music is, I find it pretty facile in the final analysis. His strength lies in chamber music, I feel. But, as far as opera is concerned, he must yield to Massenet, whose emotional range is impressively wide and encompassing, his sense for dramatic pacing and expression all the more compelling. 

Nonetheless, an immensely gifted person.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

nathanb said:


> Saint-Saens is very popular and not remotely underrated.


Popularity of The Organ Symphony and Carnival of the Animals in a manner related to Holst the Planets does not equate being rated highly by the community of experts.

I agree that he is somewhat underrated, and I enjoy his music more than Mendelssohn, for example. But I think the title of this thread is too dramatic.

He is not really anachronistic thought. His orchestration is very much informed by late romanticism, as are his melodies and even some harmonies. It is only the form and the angularity that seems throwback, and there is nothing at all wrong with that.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Klassic said:


> I once gave a lecture to a group of first graders, there were about 100 kids in the room. I asked, 'how many people here know who Beethoven was?' More than 90% of the kids raised their hands. I asked, 'how many people here know who Mozart was?' Again, more than 90% raised their hands, but when I asked about Saint-Saens not even one kid raised his hand.


You could have done the same with Bartok, Debussy, Stravinsky, and maybe even Brahms or...Bach.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

This has inspired be to listen to his clarinet sonata Op. 167. Fun stuff.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

clavichorder said:


> Popularity of The Organ Symphony and Carnival of the Animals in a manner related to Holst the Planets does not equate being rated highly by the community of experts.
> 
> I agree that he is somewhat underrated, and I enjoy his music more than Mendelssohn, for example. But I think the title of this thread is too dramatic.
> 
> He is not really anachronistic thought. His orchestration is very much informed by late romanticism, as are his melodies and even some harmonies. It is only the form and the angularity that seems throwback, and there is nothing at all wrong with that.


Organ Symphony
Carnival Of The Animals
Piano Concerto No. 2
Piano Concerto No. 5
Violin Concerto No. 3
Cello Concerto No. 1
Danse Macabre

I cannot name many composers with this many pieces of this popularity.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

He's been called the French Mendelssohn, but I prefer Felix.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

starthrower said:


> He's been called the French Mendelssohn, but I prefer Felix.


I prefer Machaut, Rameau, Berlioz, Faure, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Messiaen, Boulez, Grisey, Murail, and Dusapin myself 

But I reckon Camille could squeeze into my top 15.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I always enjoy it when I hear his music. His orchestration techniques are phenomenal -- I loved hearing some of his violin or cello concertos using "harmonics" or half stopped strings (at least that's what guitarists call the technique), and his chamber music is engaging, but I find his themes seldom take hold of me. They are gone once they are gone.

So I agree his reputation is about right, though I am surprised he did not become more popular after the movie "Babe" used a song made from one of his concerto themes. But it (the song) too has that can't-quite-remember-it quality.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

nathanb said:


> But I reckon Camille could squeeze into my top 15.


Maybe he could crack my top 30, definitely top 40. That's not so bad.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> Maybe he could crack my top 30, definitely top 40. That's not so bad.


I meant top 15 French composers, just so we're clear. Did you?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Klassic said:


> This is what I've been thinking about this fellow; he has to be one of the most underrated composers in all of history. Wtf? Incredible music composed in the style of romantic Beethoven, and what superb piano music. Rumor has it that he was at the famous premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and that he stood up to object after the first few notes. He was surely a fundamentalist, but what lovely music.
> 
> Do you think Saint-Saëns is neglected and overlooked by classical music fans in general? Do you think he should be more popular or does he deserve to fall into obscurity?


No, I don't, I love his music and don't believe for one minute he's underrated .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I can't recall the source, but one author wrote that he was perhaps too productive, and little of the fruit fell far from the tree. Interpret as you will, but I think there's some truth there.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

dsphipps100 said:


> Saint-Saens' problem is that he was somewhat anachronistic. The quality of his writing was of the highest order, to be sure, but the reaction of too many of his contemporaries was to yawn and say, "been there, done that".


When Saint-Saens started his career he was actually perceived generally as being one of the progressive Romantics in the manner of Liszt. He kind of fell out of his reputation as his career went on and Wagner sort of overwhelmed the movement, with Liszt being one of the only composers who had the kind of visionary attitude to keep up.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I have one of those CDs that came with classical magazines, and it had an interview with a Saint Saens biographer.
It turns out he was like a da Vinci, someone who dabbled in many arts and sciences.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

violadude said:


> dsphipps100 said:
> 
> 
> > Saint-Saens' problem is that he was somewhat anachronistic. The quality of his writing was of the highest order, to be sure, but the reaction of too many of his contemporaries was to yawn and say, "been there, done that".
> ...


Exactly.







It's nothing critical of Saint-Saens by any means, the man was a brilliant composer in every way. It's just that he lived so long that the music business eventually passed him by.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

nathanb said:


> I meant top 15 French composers, just so we're clear. Did you?


No. If it's only French composers, somewhere between 8 and 10.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't think he is under rated. 

But I am biased because I've never heard a piece by Saint-Saëns that I have liked. I recently saw a performance of his 5th PC and the pianist was fantastic (Stewart Goodyear) but the music itself left me feeling that Saint-Saëns really did not have anything interesting to say as a composer. 

This is completely my subjective opinion at this moment. Who knows maybe someday I will change my mind.

But due to these impressions I wouldn't place him anywhere remotely close to the level of a Ravel or a Prokofiev, never mind a Beethoven or Mozart.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Hmm tdc, I am neither a great fan of Goodyear(who I don't feel to be very 'soulful' in his music playing though phenomenal technique), and no. 5 is a slightly different but less inspired work to my ears. No. 2 or 4 with Thibaudet, for example, might have left a better impression.

As for the themes, as Weston mentioned, I respectfully disagree completely. He really could write an inspired melody or theme when he was on.

I am biased because I had a very different appreciation of classical music when I was 11 than I do now. It was consistent and I wasn't jusr suckered in by light classics, but I would always gravitate towards more angular and Mozartian composers I came across...my appreciation of Beethoven on the whole was a bit belated. Saint Saens was one of my favorites, was my favorite for a time, and I respect that initial impression to this day. I had an ear back then, different to what I have now, but just as valid.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

The only place I heard his music is in Disney animations... and Civilization games. So I can say he's considered a great alongside Beethoven and Dvorak.

And he's my #1 French composer. Even Ravel, Delibes, Berlioz and Bizet can't get near him.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

His major orchestral works are among the most popular in the repertoire, and they well deserve it. However his piano and chamber pieces are somehow neglected. Generally, he is not underrated at all.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

If one says that Saint-Saens (or any composer) belongs among the Greats, the first question I have is, _how many Greats are there?_

Don't take this too seriously, but my A la carte polls suggest that Saint-Saens might just about squeeze into the top 30 of TC's favourite composers. Is this sufficiently popular/highly rated to be called a Great?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

he was apparently an incredibly gifted child. It is said that at the age of nine he could play any of the Beethoven piano sonatas at the request of an audience as one of his party tricks! I love his piano concertos and the ever popular symphony 3. Haven't gone much deeper into him though I like what I have heard. Not perhaps 'great' (a la Beethoven, Mozart etc) music but wonderfully written and very entertaining.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Klassic, what a click-bait title for a thread. You'd think Saint-Saens was pulling a Tchaikovsky-ian lambasting off his fellow composer.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

That's the word! Click-bait...we have enough of that on YouTube and Facebook.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> If one says that Saint-Saens (or any composer) belongs among the Greats, the first question I have is, _how many Greats are there?_


Well my friend, everyone knows there are only 11 on the whole face of the earth.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Klassic said:


> This is what I've been thinking about this fellow; he has to be one of the most underrated composers in all of history. Wtf? Incredible music composed in the style of romantic Beethoven, and what superb piano music. Rumor has it that he was at the famous premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and that he stood up to object after the first few notes. He was surely a fundamentalist, but what lovely music.
> 
> Do you think Saint-Saëns is neglected and overlooked by classical music fans in general? Do you think he should be more popular or does he deserve to fall into obscurity?


Saint-Saens...The French Beethoven...I have certainly not forgotten his creativity.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

The problem with Saint-Saëns is that he seems to be doing what had already been done, so what?, he did it very well. If Beethoven came back would we want more music in the style and form of Beethoven, what about Haydn? It seems to me that there are very few composers in the world (artists), but many many technicians.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Ilarion said:


> Saint-Saens...The French Beethoven...


That's Berlioz.



Klassic said:


> The problem with Saint-Saëns is that he seems to be doing what had already been done, so what?, he did it very well.


If he'd done it really well, it wouldn't seem to be what had already been done.



Klassic said:


> If Beethoven came back would we want more music in the style and form of Beethoven, what about Haydn?


If Beethoven and Haydn came back and stuck around long enough, they'd probably reinvent themselves, as Beethoven did at least twice in his lifetime, and Haydn at least once. (I would say twice, with the London symphonies, the oratorios, and the concurrent string quartets, piano trios, liturgical works, et al. constituting a third distinct period, encompassing a new degree of grandeur - maybe a result of the influence of Mozart; obviously benefiting from a study of Handel; maybe also a result of his finding a new purpose as a composer, as he became the _de facto_ bard of the counterrevolutionary English-German alliance, until he became too sick for the job and Beethoven promptly took over.)

-----

Frits Noske and Rita Benton speak highly of Saint-Saëns' songs in _French Song from Berlioz to Duparc_. Unfortunately there aren't many recordings conveniently available and I'm way too lazy to learn them myself, but I don't doubt they're right. Somebody who could write something as wonderful as the "Aquarium" from _The Carnival of the Animals_ must have been good for _something_ else, and it evidently wasn't symphonies, concertos, or operas. His symphonic poems and the septet are pretty good, I guess.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Klassic said:


> Let's not forget about the powerful and totally awesome opening to his 2nd piano concerto: _did someone say they needed more Beethoven?_


Totally agree, this is one of my favourite openings of any work and has a strange aura of mystery and suspense about it. Saint-Saens occupies a unusual place in musical history as he was neither an innovator nor was he behind the times either; also his music ability as well as his other disciplines are up there amongst the greatest. I think had this composer been born fifty years before he would now have a far greater reputation, but by living into the modern period he doesn't seem for many to belong to either camp and his music remains a curiosity.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't consider him to be especially underrated mainly because there are quite a number of his works that receive adequate attention and popularity: Piano Concerto No. 2, Piano Concerto No. 5, Symphony No. 3, Danse Macabre, Samson et Delilah, Carnival of the Animals, Cello Concerto No. 1, Violin Concerto No. 3, Havanaise...and underrated composer might only have one or two works that receive popularity. 

At the same time, I do think Saint-Saëns is interesting. I've noticed many composers have a "sound" that I can pick up on and recognize. I've heard previously unheard music by Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, and even Tchaikovsky and been able to correctly identify the composer. Saint-Saëns to me doesn't have a "sound"; his music seems to be all over the place. I don't consider that a bad thing, but it's an interesting thing at least.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Alydon said:


> Totally agree, this [piano concerto 2] is one of my favourite openings of any work and has a strange aura of mystery and suspense about it.


Re-listening now. Better than I remember. Still kind of thin, though.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Re-listening now. Better than I remember. Still kind of thin, though.


Think No.2 is still the best of the bunch but in a way sums up much of this composer's music in not being able to deliver what it sets out to - dramatic with great melodies, but by the end not sure if Saint-Saens was aiming for comedy or just being ironic. After listening to some of Carnival of the Animals you realise what well crafted and creative pieces these are and are penned by what can only be described as a very fine composer. As for a piece of Saint-Saens which isn't thin, I came across his requiem a few years back, and was amazed it isn't performed more - another wonderful find.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Nothing wrong with his place: The most significant French composer (after Berlioz), and that some of his works are still obscured is because he, like Mozart, wrote many, but, unlike him, in so variety of styles... Time will help...


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Saint-Saens wasn't among the Greats, but he was totally awesome.

Like everyone else I really love the 2nd piano concerto.
It doesn't make me think about the world in a new light or anything. It's merely totally awesome.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Il_Penseroso said:


> The most significant French composer (after Berlioz)...


Not even the most significant French Romantic composer after Berlioz, that being Fauré. I guess either he or Gounod is in third place, though.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Underrated! Carnaval des animaux and the Danse macabre are justly famous - even people who don't listen to classical music would have heard them - but the op eras are sadly neglected. HENRY VIII is very fine, and better than many of the warhorses. And what other opera has the establishment of the C of E as an Act III finale? 

I've just bought LES BARBARES (a grand opera about elephants ) and ETIENNE MARCEL.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Not even the most significant French Romantic composer after Berlioz, that being Fauré. I guess either he or Gounod is in third place, though.


You put Gounod and Saint Saens above Bizet??


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

clavichorder said:


> You put Gounod and Saint Saens above Bizet??


He can't reply to you, Clavichorder, as he (justly) got banned for suggesting that Saint-Saens' operas were 'evidently' not very good! :lol:

Hard to choose between the three names you mention. 'Faust' versus 'Samson et Dalila' versus 'Les Pêcheurs de Perles'? I want them all!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I haven't heard anything by Saint Saens that gets me too excited. The music doesn't connect with me as a listener. If I were a musician, I'm sure his music would present a huge challenge. I respect him for his genius and talent, but as a listener I have to look elsewhere among the French composers.


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