# Most successful HIP recordings as opposed to modern (Classical/Romantic Period)



## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Just a putting this one out to the wider audience.
Can any one name a few classical works that actually suit a HIP recording as opposed to modern instruments from the classical/romantic period?
Personally I prefer Berlioz - Symphonie fantastique and Harold en Italie on period instruments but then I struggle to like anything else.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I prefer Mozart and Haydn chamber music on period instruments.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

For me, the most successful HIP recordings of Classical Period music are Gardiner's _Creation_, Pinnock's Haydn symphonies and Savall's last 3 Mozart symphonies and Requiem.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I prefer Haydn on period instruments, but Mozart on modern instruments (especially the piano music; most fortepianos irritate me). Beethoven I can enjoy either way, with a slight preference for period ensembles. Berlioz benefits from the sharper, more astringent and heterogeneous colors of period instruments, and Schumann and Brahms gain a welcome bit of transparency from the same qualities. For the most part I think Romantic music sounds better on modern instruments, though I sympathize with Brahms's love for the open-air brassiness of the natural horn.

HIP involves more than just the instruments employed. Performance style is important too, and I welcome recent efforts to understand Romantic-period practices with respect to rhythm, tempo, vibrato, portamento, etc. Unlike with earlier periods, we do have recordings made by musicians trained in the 19th century. We should learn from them about performing the music of their time.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

^What Woody said..I'd also add that of all Beethoven's symphonies the Eroica particularly suits an HIP approach the best, to my ears. I can't listen to some of those slow, overwrought Eroicas of the past, anymore (eg Masur, Klemperer).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Joachim Raff said:


> Just a putting this one out to the wider audience.
> Can any one name a few classical works that actually suit a HIP recording as opposed to modern instruments from the classical/romantic period?
> Personally I prefer Berlioz - Symphonie fantastique and Harold en Italie on period instruments but then I struggle to like anything else.


The Beethoven violin sonatas. I think this recording was a real revelation.









And Schubert 840, my favoutite piano sonata by him









Mozart also greatly benefits, here for example


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

For me HIP seems best for Baroque music - the sound seems to fit the music much better than non-HIP does - and, aside from a few classic recordings, I rarely listen to any non-HIP Baroque music and haven't for nearly 40 years! 

But HIP was initially a bit of a disappointment for me in Classical music. It never took over my preferences in the same way. Some of my favourite Mozart and Haydn recordings - including many by Pinnock - are HIP and the HIP sound world is integral to what they offer. But ultimately I think it is the interpretations I am enjoying and I can think of many HIP Classical recordings that I don't greatly like (notably a lot of Gardiner's offerings). But over the decades a lot of very notable HIP Classical recordings have been made, including the Savall recording of the last three Mozart symphonies, Harnoncourt's Concentus Musicus recording of the same, Brautigam's Mozart concertos, Norrington's last four symphonies (but then there are his later Stuttgart recordings that are not HIP but are great) and, perhaps, sonatas and Spanyi's CPE Bach.

When it comes to Beethoven I have been even less impressed with what HIP has achieved - aside from its huge influence on performances in general. I know many HIP symphony sets but can't think of one I would place in my top 5 Beethoven sets. Gardiner's set had some striking things but I get a sense that it is more about point making than the realisation of great music. He remade 5 and 7 as live recordings many years later and these are much better. At the opposite extreme are the van Immerseel recordings which are far more comfortable listening but can seem a little bland. I've also got the Krivine set but have not really been wowed by it in the way that some others have been (I didn't find it telling me anything new about the music). I love the recent Adam Fischer set but are these true HIP recordings? The same with the COE Harnoncourt set - he uses some period brass but most of the orchestra is a modern one. These two eclipse anything I have heard from the HIP fraternity. Harnoncourt recorded 4 and 5 with the Concentus Musicus as these are very different but just as impressive in their way. Beethoven's piano music might have faired better. Staier has recorded some excellent Beethoven and I love the Brautigam sonatas.

With Romantic music it seems even more clear to me that what matters is the performance, rather than HIP vs. non-HIP. I know some excellent HIP recordings and some that I really can't be bothered with. I am not sure the HIP movement has shone any particularly important light on this period. Indeed it seems that bringing essentially Baroque performance practice to Romantic music may be the very opposite of historically informed.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Roger Norrington's 1985 EMI recordings of *Beethoven symhonies* are among the best selling HIP recordings. They caused a greater stir in their time than any other historically informed recording I can recall. As late as a decade later they were still being cited for changes in the way Beethoven's chestnuts had been played and drew comparisons to Felix Weingartner's recordings from the 1930s that Naxos later released. In the last decade Gramophone magazine included them in the most influential and successful Beethoven symphonies of the recorded era with the likes of Toscanini and Karajan 1963.









I don't think this is to say Beethoven's music is any more suited to old ways and instruments than anyone else but there is a dimension to it that no one had heard on recordings previously. Whether or not this was important it's hard to imagine any piece of music being more well-known or listened to than the Beethoven symphonies.

Personally I think chamber music responds more naturally to period performance than any other type. I am a fan of harmoniemusik and it, when played on period instruments, can be extraordinarily bracing due to the timbre of old instruments including the weird serpent (contrabassoon.) I also am generally pleased by the timbre of period keyboards in musical performance though I know they don't carry sound throughout modern concert halls like modern pianos.

Some music from my library I enjoy played this way includes the *Schubert keyboard trios, Hummel's Octet-Partita in E, Beethoven's Sextet Op. 71, Trio Op. 11, Quintet for Oboe and Three Horns and Bassoon in E flat, partitas by Franz Krommer and Josef Triebensee's Concertino in E flat major for period keyboard, wind octet and double bass. *

This isn't chamber music but I also think the *Haydn Sturm und Drang symphonies* under Bruggen demonstrate a range of orchestral color not heard in other period or modern instrument performances.

As a person that has been a singer for a living and still for fun I don't find period style very satisfying in the vocal art. First it diminishes or eliminates vibrato, which occurs naturally, and causes what is known as a white sound. I find it bland and unlovely. As to whipping up tempo and cutting notes short, another period practice, these are less offensive to me but still bothersome. I find it hard to believe this is the way people sang Schubert lied in 1825.

I have worked under several directors trained in period mantra that have no place for power or authority in music, little room for expressive nuance, and always want choirs to be nimble, quick and light-footed. Period tuning can cause a singer to go flat also, especially the singers required to perform from the tops of notes such as coloratura soprano and tenor.

Still the bottom line in musical performance, recorded or live, is that it be done well. If so it matters less the style of presentation than its effect on the audience.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Not sure but looking up on Amazon the B's Norrington set is out of print and individual issues are selling third party. Where are the reissue of his sets to offer the new clientele? I own 2&8 and 9th. I recognize the importance of it coming out when it did but the question is "who" should be buying it? I can only imagine the shock that any person living back in Beethoven's day and the period following would have listening to today's interpretation (well, I mean, since the recording era got underway). Whether period or modern--the execution of all the fundamentals would be something they could only dream of. 

I am not a big fan of looking for any new recordings these days. What is the point? I am still looking at past recording I have not heard or bought yet. Remember, I am still learning as if I just woke up and a tornado came through and need to sort out all these various opinions. Gramophone recommending latest offering of new recordings on B's piano concertos? Symphonies? On and on. Anyway, I am not one who feel I need to "buy" into the hype that I am missing something on "interpretation" that goes along with any new recording, or older one for that matter. 

I keep wondering about the age we are in now. Do fellow orchestra members "sneak" a peek at smartphones during a break in passages where they are not playing a part? Do they wonder what texts they are missing? What did they worry about before then? What's for supper? 

Your last point about performance being done well--sure enough as I am not interested in tin cans clinging/banging against each other but I want to be interested in what I am hearing regardless of period instrument or modern.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I do agree that HIP works miles better in Baroque music. I like the _style_ of HIP in Classical/early Romantic stuff better than the whiny, scratchy, anemic instruments. I love both old and new-style Beethoven and think that the "lean, mean" approach to his symphonies can work if they are given the proper weight and level of control rather than just "speed for speed's sake" (which is what I hear in, say, Gardiner). So I've enjoyed the performances from Adam Fischer, Paavo Jarvi, and Skrowaczewski who take this approach with chamber-sized orchestras on modern instruments. This can also work splendidly for Mozart and Haydn, but I haven't gotten into HIP Schubert yet. For me, it's such beautiful music that more romantic readings appeal more to me. That being said, when given the choice between Walter and Savall's Jupiter or Barbirolli and Harnoncourt's Eroica, I'll always take the old-school way because when I'm looking to be emotionally affected by Beethoven, I find it more dedicated to the score and the vision of the composer. Beethoven and Mozart were great experimenters in different ways; if they aren't conducted with a little bit of daring and idiosyncratic vision, I don't think we've really done them justice.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Bigbang said:


> I am not a big fan of looking for any new recordings these days. What is the point? I am still looking at past recording I have not heard or bought yet. Remember, I am still learning as if I just woke up and a tornado came through and need to sort out all these various opinions. Gramophone recommending latest offering of new recordings on B's piano concertos? Symphonies? On and on. Anyway, I am not one who feel I need to "buy" into the hype that I am missing something on "interpretation" that goes along with any new recording, or older one for that matter.


Not to derail this thread, but this paragraph caught my attention. I don't buy recordings or attend concerts because something is HIP, or a brand new interpretation (is there such a thing anymore?) I believe in supporting current artists and organizations in their efforts. I want classical music to be alive and vibrant and current; for that to happen it needs support.

As to HIP practices, pre-Beethoven I prefer it, post-Beethoven not as much (though I've enjoyed some recent HIP Berlioz). Beethoven works both ways, so the more the merrier.


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