# BARITONE TOURNAMENT (Bonus Matchup): Gobbi vs Granforte



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Hey all! I figured that since there will be some important singers and arias I won't be able to include in the tournament that I would throw in a bonus round or two 

Tito Gobbi, Italy, 1913-1984






Apollo Granforte, Italy, 1886-1975






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Gobbi is one of the greatest singing actors and it's the major drawback here: his intonation was meant to complement his acting and without visual guide it sounds overdone to an certain extent.
Granforte offers more of the "intellectual villain" type. I much prefer this calculating Iago over theatrically exagerrated one.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Gobbi's singing is a slenderer (that's a word, right?) voice than the magnificently named Apollo Bigloud, and his characterization tends here, rightly, to the snarly and nasty. But vocal beauty was never his forte (or piano), so why try here, of all places?

Granforte sings beautifully and in keeping with his mighty impressive instrument. Interesting that he sings the E-flat on the "ah" in "son scelerato" pretty much open but then covers on the "woh" of "perchè son uomo." Anyway. I think I might have enjoyed seeing Gobbi act this role, which I know well -- pretty sure I would have -- but the question was "whose singing did you prefer." Granforte, senza dubbio!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh boy! This is a tough one for me.
They are two entirely different interpretations yet both were fine.
Gobbi was his usual "out there" approach and one can see him twirling his evil mustache.
Granforte took it to a different level and expressed more emotions in an internal yet still sinister way.
So what to do, what to do???
I think, because I have a tendency to go for the more emotional interpretation with more depth I will vote for Granforte. I only hope that beloved Tito will forgive me (but he still is the Scarpia to beat).


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Granforte, for me.

That's a superb performance. A rich voice which is also so clearly focused is rare. Taddei's studio recording is a reference I enjoy - rich-voiced and articulate - but Granforte achieves that and more: steadier, strong high notes and I like that measured interpretation.

Interesting to compare Granforte to Tibbett who also had a marvellous voice but who gives a completely extrovert performance at the Met and whose voice sounds quite unsteady in comparison.

Gobbi's performance is electric but the voice itself sounds smaller-scale, I do love the vibrancy of his phrasing and how articulate he is all the same. He makes everyone else sound tame by comparison.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Granforte has the greater instrument, Gobbi the more characterful one. I'll take Gobbi by a hair, just for that special malevolence he was so good at. 

To be honest, I've slways been a little troubled by this triumphal outburst from a character who is generally all insinuation and subtlety. I don't see a cold, calculating psychopath like Iago as a grand, Miltonian Satan-figure, hurling defiance at the order of the universe. But I can understand the desire to give him a big aria and win him some well-deserved applause. And so, given that the thing is unavoidably melodramatic and must be sung, I'll sacrifice a bit of vocal mellifluousness for a full complememt of snarling depravity. Gobbi brings a smile to my face whenever he plays a baddie. I think of him as the Italian counterpart of Gustav Neidlinger and Hermann Uhde, characterful baritones who had similarly special timbres and similar dramatic instincts in realizing Wagner's villains (and who are similarly long gone. Oh, what we're missing nowadays!).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Gobbi wins hands down for me, though I'll grant that Granforte has the more impressive voice. Iago's Credo was an invention of Verdi and Boito and, as mentioned by Woodduck, sits rather oddly with the rest of the role, but does at least give him the opportunity for a big show-stopping aria, which is exactly what Gobbi gives us. This is the one moment Iago is alone on stage singing directly to the audience and the one moment he reveals his darkest, black evil soul. There is no need for subterfuge or insinuation here, qualities we know Gobbi had in abundance in other parts of the role, and Gobbi lets us see here how truly evil the man is. I don't hear that malevolence in Granforte's performance, though it is beautifully sung and phrased. I'm not sure how to describe it, but his performance sounds less spontaneous, the gestures carefully thought out, where Gobbi just becomes malevolence incarnate.

Edited to add I can't quite believe Gobbi is trailing so badly. To me his performance is what opera is about. No he doesn't have the greatest instrument, but the way he puts it at the service of the music is unparalleled. No wonder he and Callas made such a good team.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Gobbi wins hands down for me, though I'll grant that Granforte has the more impressive voice. Iago's Credo was an invention of Verdi and Boito and, as mentioned by Woodduck, sits rather oddly with the rest of the role, but does at least give him the opportunity for a big show-stopping aria, which is exactly what Gobbi gives us. This is the one moment Iago is alone on stage singing directly to the audience and the one moment he reveals his darkest, black evil soul. There is no need for subterfuge or insinuation here, qualities we know Gobbi had in abundance in other parts of the role, and Gobbi lets us see here how truly evil the man is. I don't hear that malevolence in Granforte's performance, though it is beautifully sung and phrased. I'm not sure how to describe it, but his performance sounds less spontaneous, the gestures carefully thought out, where Gobbi just becomes malevolence incarnate.
> 
> Edited to add I can't quite believe Gobbi is trailing so badly. To me his performance is what opera is about. No he doesn't have the greatest instrument, but the way he puts it at the service of the music is unparalleled. No wonder he and Callas made such a good team.


Callas and Gobbi are what opera is all about. I'd personally add Di Stefano to the list, but Callas, Gobbi and their dedication to the drama made recordings and live performances special, whether it is Scarpia and Tosca or Rigoletto and Gilda. Sometimes, espcially when listening with headphones, it really gets me. Like when I watch Janet Baker performing When I am laid in earth from Dido & Aeneas. Words are not enough to describe the feeling.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Gobbi wins hands down for me, though I'll grant that Granforte has the more impressive voice.


I ended up voting for Granforte, largely on the basis of sheer vocalism. The chosen Gobbi "Credo" is a little late for him, and I find his voice, never the most opulent, too dry. There's an earlier studio version where Gobbi is in better vocal shape and every bit as interpretively perceptive.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I do not wish to hijack this thread, but probably this 1954 Tito Gobbi recording will make more sense in the context of the discussion.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I voted for Granforte because I did not find his interpretation lacking dramatically and he is better vocally. Gobbi does many good things with the text, but overall I find his villains snarly. His complete Rance, for example, is entirely menacing -- and therefore without substance, and his Iago and Scarpia, while better, are not my favorite interpretations. I think he is best in a more complex role like Michele or in a comic role like Gianni Schicchi, where he brings an intelligence many do not but which is necessary for the character to make sense and for the themes of the work.

Yes, opera is about connecting music and drama. There are a long list of great singers who did this, not just one or two.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Granforte has the greater instrument, Gobbi the more characterful one. I'll take Gobbi by a hair, just for that special malevolence he was so good at.
> 
> To be honest, I've slways been a little troubled by this triumphal outburst from a character who is generally all insinuation and subtlety. I don't see a cold, calculating psychopath like Iago as a grand, Miltonian Satan-figure, hurling defiance at the order of the universe. But I can understand the desire to give him a big aria and win him some well-deserved applause. And so, given that the thing is unavoidably melodramatic and must be sung, I'll sacrifice a bit of vocal mellifluousness for a full complememt of snarling depravity. Gobbi brings a smile to my face whenever he plays a baddie. I think of him as the Italian counterpart of Gustav Neidlinger and Hermann Uhde, characterful baritones who had similarly special timbres and similar dramatic instincts in realizing Wagner's villains (and who are similarly long gone. Oh, what we're missing nowadays!).


I very much agree with your comments. These are two wonderful interpretations of the aria, but Gobbi won it for me. I agree that this is a moment where Iago reveals himself and revels in his nastiness. Where I disagree is in your view of the psychology of the role. Iago is a narcissist, it's all about him and he can't help delighting in his craftiness.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I very much agree with your comments. These are two wonderful interpretations of the aria, but Gobbi won it for me. I agree that this is a moment where Iago reveals himself and revels in his nastiness. Where I disagree is in your view of the psychology of the role. Iago is a narcissist, it's all about him and he can't help delighting in his craftiness.
> 
> N.


I don't know whether Iago is best descibed as a narcissist, a sociopath or a psychopath. We probably shouldn't try to pin down a fictional character too precisely; it's hard enough to figure out real people. My (slight) misgiving about the "Credo" is a matter of style, not substance; I simply find the extroverted theatricality of it an example more of operatic convention than of realistic behavior. But there is a bit more to it, and very interesting to me is the strange, rather tragic cast of the aria's quiet section, which seems to reveal a philosophical perspective and a genuineness of feeling which narcisssitic or sociopathic manipulators are notably incapable of. To me this section is Verdi speaking for himself, out of that darker side of his nature which gave us the dark moods of his middle-period works. This pessimistic, profoundly sad music affects me much more than the mustache-twirling that precedes it, and it might add some depth to Iago's character if there were anything to support that extra dimension elsewhere in the role. I think Verdi, living at a time when opera (and theater, and art generally) was increasingly concerned with psychological realism, may have sensed that some sort of explanation was needed for such apparently unmitigated evil, something that would make it credible, or at least not entirely incomprehensible. We're never asked by Mozart to speculate on why Don Giovanni is a rapist - it just wasn't a question in 1787 - but by the mid-1800s Wagner devotes an entire tetralogy to showing, in mythical form, the genesis of evil in the wounded psyche of the undeveloped human being. Verdi wasn't a compulsively philosophical Teuton, but he knew what was happening in the world.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

If granted the right to postulate on my opinion of a fictional character, I see Iago as the only "true" psychopath in the entire realm of opera stories as I know them. (Perhaps Bluebeard)
There could even be a case made for Claggart, considered by many to be a true Patty - McCormick - evil - to - the - bone character. But Iago -- he is just plain pure evil in my little book of mentally depraved wickedness.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> If granted the right to postulate on my opinion of a fictional character, I see Iago as the only "true" psychopath in the entire realm of opera stories as I know them. (Perhaps Bluebeard)
> There could even be a case made for Claggart, considered by many to be a true Patty - McCormick - evil - to - the - bone character. But Iago -- he is just plain pure evil in my little book of mentally depraved wickedness.


Reasonable. But how about Scarpia, who appears to get off on tormenting women? Is there a mitigating factor I'm not seeing?

If Bartok's opera is taken symbolically - it certainly can't be taken literally - Bluebeard isn't evil but tragic.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I think Scarpia should be taken as a pure hedonist and sadist. He's actually more interesting if he's not even much of a character but some combination of a dark force of nature incarnate and a stock, pathetic, petty bureaucrat. Totally different from Rance and especially Michele, who are more complex not fundamentally evil, even if they do or attempt to do evil things.

Iago might also work well that way. One of the major questions we ask about evil is, Why? I like the idea of an Iago whose motives are completely empty rather than one that actually _believes_ in evil. Still, I think you can read the Credo more as a "Well, if anyone actually asked me, I guess I'd say that I believe..." than a real, straightforward proclamation. Iago is just having some fun turning the Creeds inside out because nobody can hear him. It makes sense to me both in that context and as an introvert that Iago is very subtle in public and bombastic inside his own head.

Hmm. It's been a while since I watched _Otello_. Well, I now have plans.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I think Scarpia should be taken as a pure hedonist and sadist. He's actually more interesting if he's not even much of a character but some combination of a dark force of nature incarnate and a stock, pathetic, petty bureaucrat.


I don't think there's any danger of Scarpia being seen as "much of a character." That would require some ambivalence, or some spot of softness, vulnerability or pathos in his nature and in the music that expresses it. I don't see or hear any of these things, and his grim musical motif pretty much rules it out at the start. He's compelling in his purity, but he's basically a figure of melodrama. Iago is fully as bad, but he's dramatically more interesting, more intellectual, and musically more subtle and fine-grained.



> One of the major questions we ask about evil is, Why? I like the idea of an Iago whose motives are completely empty rather than one that actually _believes_ in evil. Still, I think you can read the Credo more as a "Well, if anyone actually asked me, I guess I'd say that I believe..." than a real, straightforward proclamation. Iago is just having some fun turning the Creeds inside out because nobody can hear him. It makes sense to me both in that context and as an introvert that Iago is very subtle in public and bombastic inside his own head.


Iago's "Credo" sure sounds like a real, straightforward proclamation to me, with nothing of the "Well, if anyone asked me..." in its music. What there _is_ in its music that makes it interesting and, to me, puzzling is found in the quiet, serious passage of philosophical reflection, which I feel comes from a deep place in Verdi's character rather than that of Iago, who shows no sign of having any deep places. In other words, I find the spirit of this dark, hauntingly bleak music coming from the composer, not from the character. What a performer should conclude from it, and how it might color his overall interpretation of the part, I don't know. I suppose the "Credo" just has to be taken on its own terms, as a set piece, with the dramatic chips falling where they may.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Maybe my interpretive ear is on the fritz, but the descending triplet figures (e.g. at 1:05 in the Granforte video) in between the unison brass and one note vocal lines suggest to me that he's alternating between bombast and inner laughter that anticipates the laughter at the end of the piece after "E vecchia folla il ciel" when that motive recurs again (though not quite _this_ much laughter). That's what makes me think that the bombast is not entirely serious. To me, the real statement is at "Vien dopo tanta irrision la Morte." Life is a joke to be cruelly exploited by those who get it, and then you die. Everything else is self-delusion. But I could certainly be wildly reading too much into a relatively brief musical figure.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Reasonable. But how about Scarpia, who appears to get off on tormenting women? Is there a mitigating factor I'm not seeing?
> 
> If Bartok's opera is taken symbolically - it certainly can't be taken literally - Bluebeard isn't evil but tragic.


Scarpia isn't really inherently evil. He's just a disgusting, bloviating pig. He isn't sly enough to fill the bill of psychopath.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Scarpia isn't really inherently evil. He's just a disgusting, bloviating pig. He isn't sly enough to fill the bill of psychopath.


Baron Ochs is a disgusting, bloviating pig, albeit one at whom we're supposed to laugh. Scarpia, who views women as sexual objects and seems most excited by them when he can exploit their vulnerability and make them loathe him, who tortures people in his basement and laughs at their screams, and who arranges real executions disguised as false ones, is some way beyond disgusting.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know whether Iago is best descibed as a narcissist, a sociopath or a psychopath. We probably shouldn't try to pin down a fictional character too precisely; it's hard enough to figure out real people. My (slight) misgiving about the "Credo" is a matter of style, not substance; I simply find the extroverted theatricality of it an example more of operatic convention than of realistic behavior. But there is a bit more to it, and very interesting to me is the strange, rather tragic cast of the aria's quiet section, which seems to reveal a philosophical perspective and a genuineness of feeling which narcisssitic or sociopathic manipulators are notably incapable of. To me this section is Verdi speaking for himself, out of that darker side of his nature which gave us the dark moods of his middle-period works. This pessimistic, profoundly sad music affects me much more than the mustache-twirling that precedes it, and it might add some depth to Iago's character if there were anything to support that extra dimension elsewhere in the role. I think Verdi, living at a time when opera (and theater, and art generally) was increasingly concerned with psychological realism, may have sensed that some sort of explanation was needed for such apparently unmitigated evil, something that would make it credible, or at least not entirely incomprehensible. We're never asked by Mozart to speculate on why Don Giovanni is a rapist - it just wasn't a question in 1787 - but by the mid-1800s Wagner devotes an entire tetralogy to showing, in mythical form, the genesis of evil in the wounded psyche of the undeveloped human being. Verdi wasn't a compulsively philosophical Teuton, but he knew what was happening in the world.


Even as late as *Otello* Verdi was not afraid to use some of the old conventional forms if they served the drama. What, after all, is _Si pel ciel_ at the end of Act II, if not a clinching cabaletta? That said, even from his early days, Verdi sought to create more complexity into some of his characters. In *Simon Boccanegra* he introduces a rather resigned theme as the evil Paolo is carted off to prison, as if, now in his demise, Verdi can make us feel some sympathy for the man. Iago is tricky, because, even in Shakespeare, there is no real justification for his unremitting evil. Edmond's villainy in *King Lear* is explained by his accident of birth, but with Iago there is very llittle for an actor to grasp and, with so little motivation for his deeds, one can only come to the conclusion that the man was born evil. Perhaps, as you say, Verdi sought to provide some explanation for his villainy.

Whatever the reason, I still feel Gobbi's handling of the scene is right for Iago _at this point in the opera_. He is alone on stage and he can at last be the man he really is, no dissembling, no insinuation, no subterfuge. For me Granforte's beautifully sung and carefully considered interpretation is just a little too urbane. Gobbi, who uses all sorts of guileful tricks elsewhere in the opera, is staisfyingly direct when he is alone with the audience and it certainly hits the spot.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Baron Ochs is a disgusting, bloviating pig, albeit one at whom we're supposed to laugh. Scarpia, who views women as sexual objects and seems most excited by them when he can exploit their vulnerability and make them loathe him, who tortures people in his basement and laughs at their screams, and who arranges real executions disguised as false ones, is some way beyond disgusting.


Accepted, but it's still a far cry from an inherently evil being who believes down deep that there is no such thing as good.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Accepted, but it's still a far cry from an inherently evil being who believes down deep that there is no such thing as good.


We really don't know what Scarpia believes deep down, do we? I haven't noticed that he _has_ a "deep down." Neither character exhibits any commendable qualities. The only difference is that Iago's game is more sophisticated, and that is surely not a _moral_ difference. There are degrees of moral depravity, but both of these monsters are off the charts and I find the attempt to rank them frankly repugnant.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Reasonable. But how about Scarpia, who appears to get off on tormenting women? Is there a mitigating factor I'm not seeing?


You took the words right outta my mouth, save that Scarpia also gets off on tormenting men and hanging corpses from gallows.


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