# Beethoven's 5th Symphony



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Was this work an immediate, overwhelming hit after its premiere? To use a modern pop music term, did it "top the charts"?

If not, can somebody give some history about its popularity?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It premiered in a terribly long concert, freezing cold, with inadequate rehearsals. Its growth in popularity, after that, was rapid. Here's some good reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Beethoven)#Reception_and_influence

40 years after its first hearing, as Sir George Grove tells us: "Wagner, conducting a Court Concert at Dresden during the insurrection of 1848, felt his spirits sink as each number of the programme seemed to bring a deeper gloom over the audience, and gradually to extinguish all applause. Leaning down from his desk, he whispered to the leader of the violins, 'What is to be done?' 'Oh! go on,' said the leader, 'there is still the C-minor coming, and all will be right.' And so it was; for with the magic sound of the opening bars, everyone's spirit revived, applause burst from the benches, and it was as if a bright light shone into the room."


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

It was beloved in the 1800s, and it may be even more beloved now. It almost always lands in the Top 10 of any classical music poll, and I would put it in the top 100 pieces of music ever written.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ETA Hoffman wrote a famous review of the Fifth in 1810, just two years after its premiere. It's still well worth reading. The opening is here:

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/eta-hoffman-on-beethoven


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Classical music buffs rarely name it as a favourite - favourite Beethoven symphony let along favourite symphony - and I guess this is a reaction against its popularity. But ... what a work! I don't find it easy or even possible to choose a favourite Beethoven symphony but if I tried it would be easy to go for the Fifth. It may be the most perfect and the most succinct.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Whether or not a favourite it is an extraordinary work. Gardiner says it better than me

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/beethovens-symphony-no-5-introduced-by-sir-john-eliot-gardiner


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Berlioz wrote a famous description of his his first encounter with it, but I am not sure if that was the Paris Premere, and that must have been sometime after the fall of Napoleon.


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

The Paris premiere of the 3rd (which Berlioz heard) took place of March 9th 1828, repeated on March 23rd. The 5th was premiered on the 13th April. It was a great struggle for the conductor Habeneck to get the works performed at all. They caused a great deal of excitement with the public but the stuffy musical establishment was implacably opposed to anything new (or German). Berlioz suggests they were also jealous as Beethoven showed up their own mediocrity. Habeneck was eventually able to perform all the Beethoven symphonies.

It was No 5 that seemed to impress Berlioz most and made him determined to write a symphony of his own; the Symphonie fantastique was the eventual outcome in 1830.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Biffo said:


> The Paris premiere of the 3rd (which Berlioz heard) took place of March 9th 1828, repeated on March 23rd. The 5th was premiered on the 13th April. It was a great struggle for the conductor Habeneck to get the works performed at all. They caused a great deal of excitement with the public but the stuffy musical establishment was implacably opposed to anything new (or German). Berlioz suggests they were also jealous as Beethoven showed up their own mediocrity. Habeneck was eventually able to perform all the Beethoven symphonies.
> 
> It was No 5 that seemed to impress Berlioz most and made him determined to write a symphony of his own; the Symphonie fantastique was the eventual outcome in 1830.


Beethoven's delayed reception in France, odd as it seems, is overshadowed by Shakespeare's, which I think occurred around the same time(!), coinciding with the romantic revolution led by Hugo et alia(?)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Speaking as an orchestral player: this symphony is over-played, and often done badly. I play it far more often than any of the others. And yet, every time it comes up it's a marvel to play. Not a wasted note, the parts are all exciting and interesting to play. It remains ever-fresh and that's something that cannot be said of repeatedly playing other composer's symphonies. Audiences never tire of it either. It is indestructible although I've played it with more than one conductor who did their best; it's astonishing how many baton wielders cannot manage the beginning and can't manage the transition from III to IV adequately.

Why is it so popular? It's exciting! Full of electricity - but not for conductors who fail to heed Beethoven's fast, and correct, tempi.


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Beethoven's delayed reception in France, odd as it seems, is overshadowed by Shakespeare's, which I think occurred around the same time(!), coinciding with the romantic revolution led by Hugo et alia(?)


1828 was the year Berlioz was hit by what he called 'thunderclaps' - Shakespeare and Weber followed by Beethoven. Shakespeare wasn't unknown in France but regarded as barbaric; his wide-ranging dramas violated the classical unities of time, space and action strictly followed by French dramatists.

The visit of the English theatre company performing Shakespeare caused a sensation and was a key event in the romantic revolution.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> Beethoven's delayed reception in France, odd as it seems, is overshadowed by Shakespeare's, which I think occurred around the same time(!), coinciding with the romantic revolution led by Hugo et alia(?)


The reception of Beethoven's 5th in France was at lightning speed compared with that of the Eroica in Italy. It wasn't played there until Sgambati premiered it in...1860!


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Know it probably not supposed to but final movement always brings me to tears. To me, it seems so emotional.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Speaking as an orchestral player: this symphony is over-played, and often done badly. I play it far more often than any of the others. And yet, every time it comes up it's a marvel to play. Not a wasted note, the parts are all exciting and interesting to play. It remains ever-fresh
> Why is it so popular? It's exciting! Full of electricity -


Beethoven Sym #5 also leads my list of most often performed symphonies...I've played it so many times I cannot possibly count them all - some really superlative, others most definitely less than terrific...but I always welcome the opportunity - great part, and the music is indeed exciting...when done well, the tension, and electricity come across quite naturally.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Biffo said:


> ...It was No 5 that seemed to impress Berlioz most and made him determined to write a symphony of his own; the Symphonie fantastique was the eventual outcome in 1830.


Berlioz's thoughts on the 5th (and the others as well) can be found here:

http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#sym5


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## Vahe Sahakian (Mar 9, 2018)

I do not listen to Beethoven symphonies much these days, I have reached my own saturation points with most of them, the 5th can be mighty boring in most typical subscription concert broadcasts but there is one performance of the Fifth that has remained one of my all time favorite, it's the Carlos Kleiber VPO recording, such a powerful rendition, to me no other performance comes even close.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Let's not forget that Beethoven, in his 5th symphony, makes significant increases in the instrumental forces employed - certainly unprecedented at the time. He adds piccolo, contrabassoon, thereby considerably extending the pitch ranges of the woodwind section both top and bottom....more noticeable, of course, is his employment of the trombones in the finale...which adds a huge sonority and power to the orchestral sound...these instruments make their presence known immediately, with the great C Major outburst at the very opening of mvt IV. TMK, there is nothing that precedes this tremendous eruption in music prior to Beethoven's effort. Not even the "Eroica", with its addition of a third horn matches the sheer volume and power of sound generated in LvB #5. the trombone writing is challenging, esp the first, alto part, which is very high...Beethoven's writing effectively fills in the alto, tenor ranges between the high trumpets, and lower, bass choir...it is still an impressive sonority when played well. 
Also - let's not forget his wonderful section "soli" for the basses, in the scherzo...Beethoven was greatly influenced by D. Dragonetti, the virtuoso bass player, who showed him the capabilities of the instrument. His symphonies contain many important and/or difficult passages for the basses - including Sym 5, 6, and of course, the great Bass recitative in Sym 9/IV.


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## DreamBigKeys (Apr 15, 2018)

I noticed that the motif that opens this great symphony was inspired by a motif used by Beethoven’s idol, Mozart, in his C-Major concerto (K 503). Uchida makes it very clear, Beethoven uses the short-short-short-long motif that Mozart used in K 503, in both Symphony No. 5 and the Piano Concerto in G Major


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

For some reason the 5th was one of the Beethoven's symphonies that I listened to more rarely than his other symphonies. Maybe it sounded too familiar or too heavy, and I avoided frequent exposure. Recently I listened to it twice, and I am developing deeper appreciation for it. I think maybe it's not the greatest, but is probably the most perfect and succinct symphony. Also, I payed more attention to the use of double-basses, which is outstanding too.
Regarding the origin of the motif, I have come across something similar in a Haydn's symphony, can't remember which one.


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## Groooooove (Jul 31, 2018)

KenOC said:


> ETA Hoffman wrote a famous review of the Fifth in 1810, just two years after its premiere. It's still well worth reading. The opening is here:
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/eta-hoffman-on-beethoven


"machinery of awe"

beautifully written stuff! thanks for sharing.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

When your symphony becomes the theme song for the top rated show on television, you know you've made it!






And, of course, Judge Judy is never wrong!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> When your symphony becomes the theme song for the top rated show on television, you know you've made it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hence Beethoven's quip "Thus Judy knocks on the door." In this case, we can take Schindler at ace value.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Beethoven Sym #5 also leads my list of most often performed symphonies...I've played it so many times I cannot possibly count them all - some really superlative, others most definitely less than terrific...but I always welcome the opportunity - great part, and the music is indeed exciting...when done well, the tension, and electricity come across quite naturally.


Heck, if you're still around, I'd be curious what, from an orchestral player's point of view, differentiates a less than terrific from a superlative account, in terms of how a conductor approaches it.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I hate a slow 5th. Some conductors milk the opening motif for all its worth and then drearily trudge through the rest. The name Kegel springs to mind.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

If you hate a slow 5th, then you really need to listen the London Proms 18 concert from a couple of days ago. Theodor Currentzis handles the opening flawlessly - just like it's written. The whole performance just has so much energy.

THIS link might take you to it.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> Heck, if you're still around, I'd be curious what, from an orchestral player's point of view, differentiates a less than terrific from a superlative account, in terms of how a conductor approaches it.


Beethoven Sym #5 shows the great genius of the composer in full bloom...this is passionate, fiery intense music and should be played as such...Tempi don't need to be insanely fast, but their must be drive, momentum and intensity...playing at the "front edge of the beat"...this propels the music forward, which is what, for me, is required with LvB #5, esp in mvts I and IV. I don't mean rushed, or crowded, so that phrases are clipped, there is plenty of room for expansion of phrases, esp in mvt II...but generally, this music is energetic and must drive forward....There is much tension and release in this work - dynamic, melodic and certainly harmonic...this should be highlighted, because it makes the whole work take shape and make sense....slow, drawn out, excessive rubato, constant ritardandi at phrase endings robs the music of its momentum. Those performances become tedious and seem to drag on interminably...
Dynamic contrast is very much needed as well - Beethoven greatly expanded the orchestra for this work - he adds piccolo, contrabassoon, greatly increasing the pitch range of the orchestra, and of course, he adds the 3 trombones in mvt IV with most dramatic effect. This produces a big powerful orchestral sonority - maybe not yet as massive as Mahler, Strauss, Bruckner, etc, with 8 or more horns, added trumpets, tuba, etc, massive battery of percussion, but nonetheless, LvB #5 certainly set new levels for orchestral sonority for its time, and when played well, is still quite impressive. 
One of the most interesting performances I played of this masterpiece was conducted by composer Sam Adler, a special event with the Rochester Philharmonic and Eastman school faculty members...Adler conducted strictly from a composer's viewpoint - the form, the organization, the harmonic progressions, the dissonances, all of those sorts of details were stressed. He wasn't concerned much with tone, phrasing, bowings, etc - he left that to the section leaders - but the compositional details of the score were of paramount importance...an accent, a dissonance, a passing tone, anticipation, etc, he highlighted those features to a very high degree...it was most interesting, and a fine performance was given...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> If you hate a slow 5th, then you really need to listen the London Proms 18 concert from a couple of days ago. Theodor Currentzis handles the opening flawlessly - just like it's written. The whole performance just has so much energy.
> 
> THIS link might take you to it.


Unfortunately that link doesn't work. I believe it was an outstanding performance. Not surprised as Currentzis is an excellent conductor.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Merl said:


> I hate a slow 5th. Some conductors milk the opening motif for all its worth and then drearily trudge through the rest. The name Kegel springs to mind.


I assume Klemperer's live recording with the Vienna PO is not one you care for - one of my favourites but don't ask me to explain why, he just seems to find something different from most other conductors. Yes it is slow but it doesn't seem wrong to my ears.
Yet I don't really care for his EMI studio recordings of the work - hard to explain!


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Leonard Bernstein's 1954 lecture on the first movement.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

DreamBigKeys said:


> I noticed that *the motif that opens this great symphony was inspired by a motif* used by Beethoven's idol, Mozart, in his C-Major concerto (K 503). Uchida makes it very clear, Beethoven uses the short-short-short-long motif that Mozart used in K 503, in both Symphony No. 5 and the Piano Concerto in G Major


Where did you notice this "inspiration" exactly? What is your source for claiming this inspiration on the part of Beethoven? Was K 503 also his inspiration for ending the Fifth in C major?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DreamBigKeys said:


> I noticed that the motif that opens this great symphony was inspired by a motif used by Beethoven's idol, Mozart, in his C-Major concerto (K 503). Uchida makes it very clear, Beethoven uses the short-short-short-long motif that Mozart used in K 503, in both Symphony No. 5 and the Piano Concerto in G Major


To speak of Beethoven "borrowing" a common rhythm from another composer seems strange. The theme of the 5th Symphony's 1st movement is technically a _quartus paeon_, one of the defined poetic feet. There are only so many of these, and they were in those days used over and over again by everybody.

Beethoven's rhythmic insistence shows up again in his 7th, where the first movement is suffused with a dactylic rhythm, and the second with a dactyl followed by a spondee.

Beethoven more obviously borrowed when he used main theme of the finale of Mozart's 40th Symphony to open the scherzo of his 5th Symphony, a borrowing he was quite aware of. Actually, he had borrowed the same theme before for the first movement of his Piano Sonata No. 1 in F minor.


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