# Beethoven's Approach to Rhythm: Classical or Romantic?



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Some people seem to regard Beethoven's use of dynamics and rhythm as belonging more in the Romantic school than the Classical school. While I accept their argument about his dynamics, I always think of his rhythms as belonging more in the Classical school. People often point to the Arietta of Op.111 sonata as an example of Beethoven's interesting use of rhythm. While expression itself is unique in many ways, the rhythm itself still feels "strict" to me, as if it's something a late Classicist would have done. (Not that I think it's a bad thing. I think of "different schools of composition", such as Classicism and Romanticism to be "apples and oranges".) 
There are meter changes, but all the various other rhythms in the section are pretty much "contained" in this basic rhythmic format. Other rhythms in the section are derivations of this, by use of ties:








It sounds to me like it belongs more in the tradition of, for example -
the dotted rhythms in Bach's Art of the Fugue or some of his preludes and overtures,
or Mozart's catholic music, (missa brevis K.194 being a good example of use of syncopated string figures, a practice shared by other Salzburg masters, Eberlin and M. Haydn) or passages of "off-kilter" rhythm, phrase figures "aligned irregularly" with bars to produce certain articulation effects (ie. K.194, or K.590 string quartet).






People also cite the tempo changes of the 9th symphony as an example of Beethoven's interesting use of rhythm. But, I think this has to be understood more as a "formal element" rather than a "rhythmic element", (ie. free fantasie-pieces having tempo changes throughout their score, or sections of Bach's A major mass having tempo and meter changes, for example.)

Here's what I consider to be a more a "Romantic approach" to rhythm. 
Hummel's A minor piano concerto, written in 1816:

*[ 5:00 ]
[ 17:00 ]*





Notice how the rhythm feels Romantically "free-flowing" with various polyrhythms of 10:4 , 11:4 , 13:3 , 14:4 , 14:3 , 14:2 , 26:5 , giving an impression of "dreaminess".
Liszt (Consolation No.3, La Leggierezza) and Chopin, Brahms, Scriabin are other good examples of this:


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Yes, there's not as much _irregular_ creativity in Beethoven's rhythms that people find great, as I'm sure they don't of some wavering Romantics. Instead it's his _abnormality_ of strictly following the rules using mesostructures. "lt still follows the rules, so it's proper. Nothing you can critique about it." Classical indeed.

A principal minute of example, where he's passing through _several alternating downbeats within a broader scope of 4, such as regular time, 1 1/2 time, double time, _all to build up emphasis like a locomotive


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> Yes, *there's not so much creativity or irregularity in Beethoven's rhythms that people find great*, as I'm sure they don't of some wavering Romantics. Instead it's his abnormality in strictly following to the rules, as though he's still saying "lt follows the rules, so it's proper. Nothing you can critique about it." Classical indeed.
> 
> A principal minute of example, where he's passing through _several alternating downbeats within a broader scope of 4, such as regular time, 1 1/2 time, double time, _all to build up emphasis


"The Great Fugue ... now seems to me the most perfect miracle in music," said Igor Stravinsky. "It is also the most absolutely contemporary piece of music I know, and contemporary forever ... Hardly birthmarked by its age, the Great Fugue is, in rhythm alone, more subtle than any music of my own century ... I love it beyond everything." - Source.

"A new study focusing on the music of Ludwig van Beethoven treats shifting musical rhythms as a sort of musical electrocardiogram. In Beethoven's dotted rhythms, tempo shifts, sudden pauses and composition notes, a trio of researchers suggest that they have gleaned the distant echo of the German composer's heart." -Source.

"The Eroica symphony predates the earlier mentioned Liszt death connection, as the second movement is a deeply drawn out funeral march where rays of sun shine intermittently. The heroic mode returns in a more boisterous fashion in the third movement, and the fourth movement is an excellent example of Beethoven's "It may sound like I don't know what I'm doing, but trust me ... I do" trademark. The music begins without clear definition or direction. Melody and rhythm are fragmented by sudden pauses and repeated notes that don't know where and when to stop.
While this stopping and starting creates enormous tension and uncertainty, you sense Beethoven has a plan. And, sure enough, he finds a way to fill in those earlier pauses and he completes the previously uncompleted phrases when the main theme finally breaks free, first with the oboe and then the entire orchestra." - Source.

"Performers approaching the Grosse Fuge face a host of technical and musical challenges. Among the technical difficulties of the piece are difficult passagework, complex cross-rhythms that require exact synchronization, and problems of intonation, where the harmonies pass from dissonance to resolution." - Source.

"Polyrhythm is heard near the opening of Beethoven's Symphony No. 3." - Source.

"Concerning the use of a two-over-three (2:3) hemiola in Beethoven's String Quartet No. 6, Ernest Walker states, "The vigorously effective Scherzo is in 3/4 time, but with a curiously persistent cross-rhythm that does its best to persuade us that it is really in 6/8." - Source.

"If anyone has conducted a Beethoven performance, and then doesn't have to go to an osteopath, then there's something wrong." - Sir Simon Rattle.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

More 'purely creative' is not the term I'd use in contrast to the OP's example. Instead, 'more clever and abnormal' in his strict adherence to rules, _effective_ to a maximum degree, letting the rules speak for themselves.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> "The Great Fugue ... now seems to me the most perfect miracle in music," said Igor Stravinsky. "It is also the most absolutely contemporary piece of music I know, and contemporary forever ... Hardly birthmarked by its age, the Great Fugue is, in rhythm alone, more subtle than any music of my own century ... I love it beyond everything." - Source.


I think a pre-Romantic composer can also be considered to be subtle and organic in use of rhythm. I think that the dotted rhythms in the Grosse Fuge is another example of Beethoven's use of rhythms that feels Classically "strict", (yet still arguably powerful in expression).
And I think there are advantages in both ways of composition. For example, using continual bass rhythms in part-writing like Schubert's Erlkonig, or Chopin's prelude No.28 No.24, berceuse would not have been discouraged in the Classical idiom.



Allerius said:


> "A new study focusing on the music of Ludwig van Beethoven treats shifting musical rhythms as a sort of musical electrocardiogram. In Beethoven's *dotted rhythms, tempo shifts, sudden pauses and composition notes*, a trio of researchers suggest that they have gleaned the distant echo of the German composer's heart." -Source.


I already said I consider these more as a "formal element" in the thread. Look at Bach's A major mass, which I cited as an example. 



It doesn't change the fact, that during Beethoven's "middle period", there was music written by a contemporary of his that inclined more towards what I consider as the "later kind" in use of rhythm.



Allerius said:


> "Polyrhythm is heard near the opening of Beethoven's Symphony No. 3." - Source.


What kind of polyrhythms? Can you explain/show us where they are exactly? I still hear nothing like the Hummel, Chopin examples in Beethoven's Eroica. It's all Classically "strict", just like other Beethoven works, consisting of series of whole notes, 1/2-notes, 1/4-notes, 1/8-notes working "strictly". And I think in some ways, it fits his temperament, of being "direct" in expression. (Keep in mind, I'm just telling you the kind of impression I get from his use of rhythm, and I'm not trying to denigrate it as being boring or monotonous.)



Allerius said:


> "Concerning the use of a two-over-three (2:3) hemiola in Beethoven's String Quartet No. 6, Ernest Walker states, "The vigorously effective Scherzo is in 3/4 time, but with a curiously persistent cross-rhythm that does its best to persuade us that it is really in 6/8." - Source.


Hemiolas (2:3) show up in 18th century classical era music, such as Mozart's 24th piano concerto (1st movement, bar 448): 



22nd string quartet (1st movement, bar 27): 



I don't quite get exactly what you're trying to say by citing all these random quotes. How do they answer (relate to) my original post? So what's _your_ point (conclusion)? What do _you_ think?



Allerius said:


> "If anyone has conducted a Beethoven performance, and then doesn't have to go to an osteopath, then there's something wrong." - Sir Simon Rattle.


Ok.. So? How does this relate to the topic?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> What kind of polyrhythms? Can you explain/show us where they are exactly?


The wikipedia article doesn't specify exactly what it's talking about, but I suppose that it's the syncopation that occurs at the very first page of the Eroica and that is played by the first violins.



hammeredklavier said:


> I don't quite get exactly what you're trying to say by citing all these random quotes. How do they answer (relate to) my original post? So what's _your_ point (conclusion)? What do _you_ think?
> 
> Ok.. So? How does this relate to the topic?


It relates to the passage in post #2 marked in bold in my answer (perhaps I should have increased the size of the letters to help you see, I didn't because you protested last time) that says that _there's not so much creativity in Beethoven's rhythms that people find great_. The quotes show the opposite.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> The wikipedia article doesn't specify exactly what it's talking about, but I suppose that it's the syncopation that occurs at the very first page of the Eroica and that is played by the first violins.


Still, that strikes me as a "Classical way". Syncopations, rhythms "driven by counterpoint":




*[ 4:20 ]*





and rhythmic changes that come with mood shifts- again, look at Bach mass BWV234 (gloria), and Mozart mass K.275 (credo). With Beethoven, the form is expanded, but the rhythms of the components he uses the build the form strike me as "Classical".

What I actually meant by polyrhythms was the stuff described as "cross-rhythms" in that wikipedia article. I play the piano, I've felt that going from the Classicists the Romantics a huge leap in terms of the way to think about tempo and rhythm. With Beethoven, things still line up evenly and strictly. But with Chopin, you must think in terms of stuff like "dreamy free-flows" and "rubato", asking questions like "how should I handle 6:11 and 12:22 to make it really sing in a Romantic way?" I don't ever feel this way with Beethoven. He rather strikes me as closer to the Classicists in this regard.


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> What I actually meant by polyrhythms was the stuff described as "cross-rhythms" in that wikipedia article. I play the piano, I've felt that going from the Classicists the Romantics a huge leap in terms of the way to think about tempo and rhythm. With Beethoven, things still line up evenly and strictly. But with Chopin, you must think in terms of stuff like "dreamy free-flows" and "rubato", asking questions like "how should I handle 6:11 and 12:22 to make it really sing in a Romantic way?" I don't ever feel this way with Beethoven. He rather strikes me as closer to the Classicists in this regard.


I agree with this assessment. Rhythms in Beethoven sonata are easy to handle and you really can't use too much rubati whereas in Romantic work rhythms and pulses are much more diverse and flexible.

I always like to think of Beethoven as doing romantic stuff in classical forms. The violent off beats and sforzando effects he creates in Eroica is definitely not classical (aesthetically and stylistically) but the rhythmic structure still look classical.


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