# Death of the symphonic tradition?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Somebody wrote in another thread that Shostakovich's 15th Symphony (1971) marked the end of the symphonic tradition that started with Haydn. It certainly still uses the vocabulary that most of us can understand and speaks to matters of seeming importance, however ambiguously.

Do you think this is true? Who has been writing symphonies since then that are likely to survive in general esteem?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There was some discussion on this in a previous thread

http://www.talkclassical.com/538-shostakovich-last-great-symphonist-3.html

Others may have more to say ...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Gorecki 3 will remain in the repertoire for sure.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Hard for me to think of anything great after Shostakovich. William Schuman wrote some cool symphonies post 1970, and maybe some other American composers, but nothing to fit "in the line," really. I have heard about the Gorecki and its relative acclaim, but have not heard it myself. There certainly have been younger composers than Shostakovich that have written excellent symphonies, but most of those symphonies were written before 1971.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I think Schnittke's 10 symphonies will stand the test of time, and all but one of those (No. 0, a sort of practice symphony from 1957) were completed after 1971. As for 21st century symphonies, I can't think of any at all, let alone ones that might become standard repertoire in periods to come.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Well, thanks to a post by Joen_cph in that thread he linked, I can name Allan Pettersson. He wrote a number after 1971 and as far as I can tell, of consistent quality and style. There is a powerful spirit at work in his music, even if it is exceptionally thick and busy, with a crazy and negative vibe, almost to the point of not being able to sit through a symphony of his. I don't think he'll ever be mainstream, but I definitely feel he was a very genuine artist.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Of course, several contemporary composers in addition to Schnittke have been writing a considerable number of symphonies (e.g. Rautavaara, Sallinen, Glass). Another one that I would love to see stand the test of time is Hovhaness' Symphony No. 50, Mount St. Helens, Op. 360 from 1982.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Well, thanks to a post by Joen_cph in that thread he linked, I can name Allan Pettersson. He wrote a number after 1971 and as far as I can tell, of consistent quality and style. There is a powerful spirit at work in his music, even if it is exceptionally thick and busy, with a crazy and negative vibe, almost to the point of not being able to sit through a symphony of his. I don't think he'll ever be mainstream, but I definitely feel he was a very genuine artist.


Good choice with Pettersson. Many of his symphonies feel like extended Mahler scherzos, and they are very tiring to listen to, but he's certainly rooted in the romantic symphony.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I already kind of addressed this in the other thread but have to agree with Pettersson. I do think he has something to say and contribute to the repertoire. Now will they stand the test of time? None of us will ever know and it doesn't really matter as long as we enjoy them now.

Kevin


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Nonsense. I don't know who exactly will stand the test of time, but including the composers already mentioned, what about Per Norgard? Aho? Henze? Simpson? Yun? Yoshimatsu? Sumera? Kancheli? Rubbra? Broadstock? Vine? This attitude that there's nothing (or nothing good) past the "accepted" composers is kind of annoying to me.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> Nonsense. I don't know who exactly will stand the test of time, but including the composers already mentioned, what about Per Norgard? Aho? Henze? Simpson? Yun? Yoshimatsu? Sumera? Kancheli? Rubbra? Broadstock? Vine? This attitude that there's nothing (or nothing good) past the "accepted" composers is kind of annoying to me.


Agreed! In fact, the symphonies written past the "accepted" time are the ones I'm most interested in. Sallinen, Schnittke, Henze, Schuman, Norgard, etc. And I hope to get hold of some of Aho's work in the near future.

And there are several of Shosti's contemporary's who wrote great symphonies. Karl Hartmann, and Honegger I enjoy quite a bit.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

John Corigliano's symphony no 1 has been widely performed in recent years and has been recorded by both Daniel Barenboim and Leonard Slatkin . It's a truly great work .


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

superhorn said:


> John Corigliano's symphony no 1 has been widely performed in recent years and has been recorded by both Daniel Barenboim and Leonard Slatkin . It's a truly great work .


Corigliano's Second and Third Symphonies are pretty good too. I have heard live performances of these works. The Second received the Pulitzer and the Third is for, guess what, BAND.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

violadude said:


> Nonsense. I don't know who exactly will stand the test of time, but including the composers already mentioned, what about Per Norgard? Aho? Henze? Simpson? Yun? Yoshimatsu? Sumera? Kancheli? Rubbra? Broadstock? Vine? This attitude that there's nothing (or nothing good) past the "accepted" composers is kind of annoying to me.


I am also getting tired of all of these Western European Classical Music are dying threads. Many of these individuals just dislike contemporary music and/or have minimal knowledge of it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> I am also getting tired of all of these Western European Classical Music are dying threads. Many of these individuals just dislike contemporary music and/or have minimal knowledge of it.


If you take the time to read the OP, you'll see that it repeats an opinion seen elsewhere. It makes no judgment and merely asks for counterexamples (as some have supplied). Further, it doesn't address "Western European Classical Music" or even the symphony, only the "symphonic tradition."

But perhaps here, as in wider society, there are questions that shouldn't be asked. If so, perhaps you can provide a list. That would be nice!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

There are some contributors here who are contently presenting opinions which promote the position that Western European Classical music is a dying art form. We have seen articles that symphony orchestras are dying, that atonal music destroyed tonality, that unconventional stagings of operas are turning off audiences and that the symphonic tradition is dead.

What many of us are stating is that these observations are inconsistant with our experiences.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Somebody wrote in another thread that Shostakovich's 15th Symphony (1971) marked the end of the symphonic tradition that started with Haydn.
> It certainly still uses the vocabulary that most of us can understand and speaks to matters of seeming importance, however ambiguously.*Do you think this is true? *Who has been writing symphonies since then that are likely to survive in general esteem?


_*"Somebody wrote in another thread" *_absolves any direct connection between the question and anyone here.

However, by quoting it and creating a thread around this statement, this suggests tacit agreement with that statement.

*"Do I think?" Hmmph!* The nature of the statement, and the questions derived from it, seem to be inherently irrelevant to _my personal opinion of what I personally like,_ but is simply asking me _"what do I think the majority of people think." _

So, "Will people now, or in the future, think that Shostakovich's 15th Symphony (1971) marked the end of the symphonic tradition that started with Haydn, because it certainly still uses the vocabulary that most of us can understand and speaks to matters of seeming importance, however ambiguously? Is this true?

*My answer is "yes," that's what most people now, in the wonderful 21st century, think.*

I do not believe in the suggestion that there could be a "spokesman for the majority" who could also decide what's important.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> If you take the time to read the OP, you'll see that it repeats an opinion seen elsewhere. It makes no judgment and merely asks for counterexamples (as some have supplied). Further, it doesn't address "Western European Classical Music" or even the symphony, only the "symphonic tradition."
> 
> But perhaps here, as in wider society, there are questions that shouldn't be asked. If so, perhaps you can provide a list. That would be nice!


As if the "Symphonic Tradition" is anything other than Western European, LOL.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Perhaps you tacit traditionalists are right; the "symphonic tradition" is just that, a tradition, which includes certain ways of thinking and writing music, because the symphonic form is made as a vehicle for that way of thinking about music.

Schnittke is just an extension of Shostakovich; although Shostakovich used the octatonic scale, his deployment of it was traditional, using themes and major/minor triads.

Howard Hanson; John Harbison; John Corigliano; Philip Glass, even. Yes, the symphonic tradition will continue, if only as excerpts in soundtracks or Disney Broadway musicals.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Tradition is, generally speaking, no longer a barrier. I think if the composer decides the work he's written is significant enough to be called a symphony, whatever its form, it is our duty to take his/her word for it and regard it as a symphony.


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## unpocoscherzando (Sep 24, 2011)

Personally, I tend to hear the end of the symphonic tradition in Honegger's Fifth.

However, there has certainly been some music of worth in this genre post-'71. I'd put in a nod for Thomson's Third and Saygun's Fourth and Fifth; the latter two can be found on Youtube, I believe.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Somebody wrote in another thread that Shostakovich's 15th Symphony (1971) marked the end of the symphonic tradition that started with Haydn.


I think that's bunkum then. People always use their ignorance of music to extrapolate opinions which help cover their lack of knowledge and excuse it. Best way to solve that problem, go out and listen to more music to remedy that ignorance.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Glass has some great symphonies.


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