# K divided by 25 + 10 = age of Mozart



## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

Interstingly, with the Köchel Numbers and some simple arithmetic, one can get a rough idea of when Mozart wrote a particular work.

Take any KN above 100, divide it by 25 and add 10.

This will give Mozart's rough age when he composed the piece.

In your current particular piece, 331 divided by 25 = 13.25 plus 10 = just over 23 years of age.

The K 6 revision puts the age as 12 + 10 = 22 years.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=21349.0


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

341/25 + 10 = 23.6

Mozart's actual age when he wrote it: 31~35

_"Otto Jahn dated the work to between November 1780 and March 1781, during Mozart's stay in Munich for a performance of his opera Idomeneo, since it was assumed that Mozart was mostly uninterested in church music during his Vienna years (producing only the unfinished C minor mass as a result of a vow, the unfinished Requiem for a commission, and the very short Ave verum corpus for a friend), and the clarinets in the scoring would not have been available in Salzburg. Hence the work was sometimes called the Münchener Kyrie (Munich Kyrie). This assumption has since been refuted with the discovery of sketches for sections of the Mass by Mozart dating from the late 1780s, and it was suggested in the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe that K. 341 actually dated from Vienna in 1787-91, when Mozart was hoping to be appointed Kapellmeister of St. Stephen's Cathedral."_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K._341






401/25 + 10 = 26

Mozart's actual age when he wrote it: 17

_Mozart began another fugue in 1773 that is little more than an exercise in modulation and chromaticism: the Fugue in G minor, K. 401."_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=nA2QZPsT1RwC&pg=PA68
_"Recent handwriting analysis of the manuscript suggests that the fugue was composed in 1773 before Mozart became acquainted with J.S. Bach's works."_
http://classicalplus.gmn.com/classical/work.asp?id=16&cmp=Mozart,+Wolfgang+Amadeus&notes=true


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> 341/25 + 10 = 23.6
> 
> Mozart's actual age when he wrote it: 31~35
> 
> ...


Yes there are works that have been incorrectly catalogued. K333 for example was thought to be composed around age 24 - now scholars put a much later date - well into the 1780s.

The great d minor Kyrie - that does make sense - late 1780s - it is on the same level as any music in the requiem.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

If you had the data handy (K number and age of composition for each K number), one could easily do a simple linear regression to see how well this holds up. There will still be some outliers even with the best possible linear model.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

apricissimus said:


> If you had the data handy (K number and age of composition for each K number), one could easily do a simple linear regression to see how well this holds up. There will still be some outliers even with the best possible linear model.


While looking for a cleaned dataset, I found that it had already been done: http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=67&threadID=196832&messageID=726711

Addendum: the dataset is found here: http://stat.pugetsound.edu/hoard/projectDetails.aspx?id=4


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

It makes sense that there would be such a linear relationship (take the K number, divide some number, add some other number), if

The K numbers are assigned more or less in the order they were composed.
Mozart composed fairly consistently, with no significant dry spells or periods where he was especially prolific.
The same would be true for any composer and their catalogue numbers.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

AeolianStrains said:


> *Addendum: the dataset is found here: http://stat.pugetsound.edu/hoard/projectDetails.aspx?id=4*


Here's the regression:

Note: while the data set is fairly comprehensive, it doesn't contain data for every work and contains many duplicates, which I removed before doing the regression.

Age = 10.66 + 0.03944(K)
R^2 = 0.89

*Age = (year composed) - 1756 ; since Mozart was born in January this should work pretty well, but it is a slight underestimate.
K = K number (of course)

Since .03944 ~ 0.04 = 1/25 and 10.66 ~ 10, with the intercept from the formula in OP under-cutting the regression value and the slope over-cutting the regression value, I suppose this is a decent approximation.

Edit: After removing duplicates, the data set contained entries for 571 works.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

K1625 when he was 75 yrs old, senile and ranting around-the-clock about Beethoven's inscrutable late works!


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

"Mozart's actual age when he wrote it: 17"

Fugue in G minor, K.401/375e

Composition Year:	1782

https://imslp.org/wiki/Fugue_in_G_minor,_K.401/375e_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)

1782 - 1756 (year Mozart born) = 26 (age of Mozart when above work completed)

Take any KN above 100, divide it by 25 and add 10.

401/25 + 10 = 26

Mozart was 26 when he wrote the above fugue


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

"Mozart's actual age when he wrote it: 31~35"

KYRIE IN D MINOR K. 341 - W. A. MOZART

Kyrie in D minor, K.341/368a

Composition Year	1781

https://imslp.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K.341/368a_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)

81-56= 25 age of Mozart when work completed

Take any KN above 100, divide it by 25 and add 10.

368/25 +10 =25 age of Mozart when work completed


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

robin4, I'm saying that the scholars originally assigned "wrong" Kochel numbers to the two Mozart works because they did not know the correct years of their composition. They just assumed the works were composed in 1781, 1782 respectively, and assigned Kochel numbers accordingly, but it was found later that the works were composed in 1787 (or later), 1773 respectively.
Don't use IMSLP as source for their composition dates. Nobody updates them.

_"Otto Jahn dated the work to between November 1780 and March 1781, during Mozart's stay in Munich for a performance of his opera Idomeneo, since it was assumed that Mozart was mostly uninterested in church music during his Vienna years (producing only the unfinished C minor mass as a result of a vow, the unfinished Requiem for a commission, and the very short Ave verum corpus for a friend), and the clarinets in the scoring would not have been available in Salzburg. Hence the work was sometimes called the Münchener Kyrie (Munich Kyrie). This assumption has since been refuted with the discovery of sketches for sections of the Mass by Mozart dating from the late 1780s, and it was suggested in the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe that K. 341 actually dated from Vienna in 1787-91, when Mozart was hoping to be appointed Kapellmeister of St. Stephen's Cathedral."_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K._341

_Mozart began another fugue in 1773 that is little more than an exercise in modulation and chromaticism: the Fugue in G minor, K. 401."_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=nA2QZPsT1RwC&pg=PA68
_"Recent handwriting analysis of the manuscript suggests that the fugue was composed in 1773 before Mozart became acquainted with J.S. Bach's works."_
http://classicalplus.gmn.com/classical/work.asp?id=16&cmp=Mozart,+Wolfgang+Amadeus¬es=true


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

And if you add 32, you get the outside temperature in Fahrenheit.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MarkW said:


> And if you add 32, you get the outside temperature in Fahrenheit.


Dolbear's Law.

To convert cricket chirps to degrees Fahrenheit:

Just count the number of chirps in 14 seconds, then add 40 to get the temperature.
The number you get will be an approximation of the outside temperature.

Example: 30 chirps + 40 = 70° F

To convert cricket chirps to degrees Celsius:

Count the number of chirps in 25 seconds, divide by 3, then add 4 to get the temperature.
Example: 48 chirps /(divided by) 3 + 4 = 20° C


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Dolbear's Law.
> 
> To convert cricket chirps to degrees Fahrenheit:
> 
> ...


Except with global warming, crickets are starting to burst into flame from friction.


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

"robin4, I'm saying that the scholars originally assigned "wrong" Kochel numbers to the two Mozart works because they did not know the correct years of their composition"

I understand. Editions of Köchel's catalogue is now up to 8 (1983)

Do you trust The Neue Mozart-Ausgabe (NMA; English: New Mozart Edition)?

The Neue Mozart-Ausgabe (NMA; English: New Mozart Edition) is the second complete works edition of the music of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. A longer and more formal title for the edition is Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

Highly regarded and frequently used by performers of Mozart's music and musical scholars, the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe is an indispensable reference for anyone seriously interested in the output of this composer.

H. C. Robbins Landon has called it "an absolute necessity if we are to perform Mozart correctly,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Mozart-Ausgabe

Welcome

to the Mozart Portal of Barenreiter, the publisher of the world famous New Mozart Edition.

On the following pages you will find information about all Mozart titles published by Barenreiter, the life of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and information on the New Mozart Edition.

New Mozart Edition

Fugue in G minor, K.401/375e

http://www.mozart-portal.de/

New Mozart Edition

Kyrie in D minor K. 341 (368a)

http://www.mozart-portal.de/


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

If you then multiply by 3,14, ad 10, subtract 10 and divide by 3,14 and then subtract 14 you get Beethovens's age when Mozart composed that same piece!!!!!


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

Interstingly, with the Köchel Numbers and some simple arithmetic, one can get a rough idea of when Mozart wrote a particular work.

Take any KN above 100, divide it by 25 and add 10.

This will give Mozart's rough age when he composed the piece.

Add the age to Mozart's year of birth - 1756. It will give a fair idea of the year.

Warm Regards

Prof K S (Mohan Narayanan)

Musicologist, Teacher
Chennai, India

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=21349.0


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

*hammeredklavier* "Don't use IMSLP as source for their composition dates. Nobody updates them."

Below are the changes since 8 July 2019 (up to 50 shown).

Show last 50 | 100 | 250 | 500 changes in last 1 | 3 | 7 | 14 | 30 days

News

3 July 2019 - 146,000 works have scores or parts on Petrucci Music Library.
13 June 2019 - 475,000 scores.
31 May 2019 - 145,000 works have scores or parts on Petrucci Music Library.
25 May 2019 - IMSLP now has 56,000 recordings.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

*hammeredklavier "Don't use IMSLP as source for their composition dates.*

The International Music Score Library Project (IMSLP)

IMSLP is recommended as a research tool by MIT,[3][4] which also uses it extensively for providing scores for its OpenCourseWare courses.[5][6]

It is suggested as a resource by the Sibley Music Library[7]

and by libraries at other universities such as Stanford University,[

8] University of California, Los Angeles

[9] Brown University,

[10] University of Pennsylvania,

[11] University of Wisconsin-Madison,[12] Oberlin Conservatory of Music,[13] Manhattan School of Music[14] University of Maryland,[15] University of Washington,[16] University of Cincinnati,[17] University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee,[18] Appalachian State University[19] in the US, McGill University[20] in Canada,

University of Oxford,[21]

University of Cambridge,[22]

University of Edinburgh[23]

University of Bristol[24] in the UK,

University of Melbourne[25] in Australia, and others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Music_Score_Library_Project


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

robin4 said:


> *hammeredklavier* "Don't use IMSLP as source for their composition dates. Nobody updates them."
> Below are the changes since 8 July 2019 (up to 50 shown).
> Show last 50 | 100 | 250 | 500 changes in last 1 | 3 | 7 | 14 | 30 days
> News


I'm saying nobody updates little things like 'dates of composition' of pieces that were uploaded a long time ago.
Just because people keep uploading sheet music there, it doesn't mean those still people who originally uploaded the sheet music are still around to edit trivial things like 'dates of composition' even if they were proven wrong. 
IMSLP works just like wikipedia, (which IMSLP is part of) people volunteer to contribute and not everyone remembers what they uploaded years ago or come back to fix stuff.

It's reasonable to think Mozart composed Kyrie K341 as an audition piece for the post of Kapellmeister at St. Stephen Cathedral in Vienna, which he was applying for around the period 1787~1791 (they even found his sketches for fragments of the rest of the mass that date from 1787~1791) than to think he composed it at 1781 when there was no incentive for such a composition. https://lamasterchorale.org/concert_detail.php?concert_id=110
They originally assigned number "341" to the work without even knowing the correct date. 
How can you say plugging in the number "341" in the equation will give you the correct date for the composition 
when in reality, they simply assigned a random arbitrary number anywhere in range 300~ 600, ( in this case, "341" ) because they didn't know the exact date in the first place?
What part of this don't you understand?


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

" they simply assigned a random arbitrary number anywhere in range 300~ 600"

how about any number between 1 and 626?

Köchel attempted to arrange the works in chronological order, but many compositions written before 1784 could only be estimated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köchel_catalogue

"What part of this don't you understand?"

what part of the below don't you understand?

IMSLP is recommended as a research tool by MIT, which also uses it extensively for providing scores for its OpenCourseWare courses.

It is suggested as a resource by the Sibley Music Library

and by libraries at other universities such as Stanford University,

University of California, Los Angeles

Brown University

University of Oxford

University of Cambridge

University of Edinburgh

University of Bristol


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

robin4 said:


> how about any number between 1 and 626?


I repeat, due to the clarinets (which weren't available to Mozart in his days in Salzburg) in the scoring, we know for sure he didn't compose it in Salzburg, but there's no evidence validating exactly when he composed it. We can only speculate he did around 1787~1791.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K._341

_"It is possible that D-minor Kyrie, K.341(368a), also belongs to this period (1790~1791), but the autograph is lost. All editions of Kochel have followed Otto Jahn in assigning it to Mozart's stay in Munich from November 1780 to March 1781, but there is little to be said in favor of this."_
-Mozart: Studies of the Autograph Scores By Alan Tyson, page 342
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gmDterwnn4EC&pg=PA342

_"We have no means of knowing how Mozart would have organized a mass in D minor, but the Kyrie K 341, which is undated but clearly belongs in the late 1780s, could have been part of one"_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=20UNX8-pJOoC&pg=PA97


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

" We can only* speculate* he did around 1787~1791"

speculation does not = truth

Mozart: Studies of the Autograph Scores By *Alan Tyson*, page 342

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gmDterwnn4EC&pg=PA342

One person's opinion does not equal facts.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

robin4 said:


> One person's opinion does not equal facts.


There's no clear evidence Mozart composed it in 1781 either.

_"Otto Jahn dated the work to between November 1780 and March 1781, during Mozart's stay in Munich for a performance of his opera Idomeneo, since it was assumed that Mozart was mostly uninterested in church music during his Vienna years (producing only the unfinished C minor mass as a result of a vow, the unfinished Requiem for a commission, and the very short Ave verum corpus for a friend), and the clarinets in the scoring would not have been available in Salzburg.[1] Hence the work was sometimes called the Münchener Kyrie (Munich Kyrie). This assumption has since been refuted with the discovery of sketches for sections of the Mass by Mozart dating from the late 1780s, and it was suggested in the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe that K. 341 actually dated from Vienna in 1787-91, when Mozart was hoping to be appointed Kapellmeister of St. Stephen's Cathedral."_
_1. Robins, Brian. "Kyrie for chorus & orchestra in D minor, K. 341 (K. 368a)". AllMusic. Retrieved November 29, 2016._
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K._341

There are many other musicologists corroborating with the speculation Mozart composed it in the late 1780s. You'll know if you actually do some research instead of listing names of a bunch of random universities that use a free sheet music website that runs on donations and volunteered work of other people.


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

"There are many other musicologists corroborating with the speculation Mozart composed it in the late 1780s."


name them


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

"You'll know if you actually do some research instead of listing names of a bunch of random universities that use a free sheet music website that runs on donations and volunteered work of other people."


the universities that use that web site do not appear to care if it is run on donations and volunteer work

a lot of hospitals are funded in part by donations and depend on volunteer work. That doesn't keep the patients away!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

https://imslp.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K.341/368a_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)







https://imslp.org/wiki/Fugue_in_G_minor,_K.401/375e_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

*Kyrie in D minor, K.341/368a

Composition Year	1781

https://imslp.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_mi...fgang_Amadeus)

Kyrie in D minor, K.341/368a

Composition Year	1787-91 

https://imslp.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K.341/368a_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)

*

I can see* YOU *changed the date of composition.

*"There are many other musicologists corroborating with the speculation Mozart composed it in the late 1780s."

name them
*

I can also see you are unable to back up your *claim*.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

robin4 said:


> *Kyrie in D minor, K.341/368a
> 
> Composition Year	1781
> 
> ...


LOL - what is going on?

If there are no musicologists who back that view - then lets stick with 1781 - its fine with me.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

stomanek said:


> LOL - what is going on?
> 
> If there are no musicologists who back that view - then lets stick with 1781 - its fine with me.


I kept giving robin4 scholarly evidence it's _more likely_ Mozart composed it in the late 1780s than early 1780s. But he won't listen to me.



hammeredklavier said:


> _"Otto Jahn dated the work to between November 1780 and March 1781, during Mozart's stay in Munich for a performance of his opera Idomeneo, since it was assumed that Mozart was mostly uninterested in church music during his Vienna years (producing only the unfinished C minor mass as a result of a vow, the unfinished Requiem for a commission, and the very short Ave verum corpus for a friend), and the clarinets in the scoring would not have been available in Salzburg.[1] Hence the work was sometimes called the Münchener Kyrie (Munich Kyrie). This assumption has since been refuted with the discovery of sketches for sections of the Mass by Mozart dating from the late 1780s, and it was suggested in the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe that K. 341 actually dated from Vienna in 1787-91, when Mozart was hoping to be appointed Kapellmeister of St. Stephen's Cathedral."_
> _1. Robins, Brian. "Kyrie for chorus & orchestra in D minor, K. 341 (K. 368a)". AllMusic. Retrieved November 29, 2016._
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie_in_D_minor,_K._341





hammeredklavier said:


> _"It is possible that D-minor Kyrie, K.341(368a), also belongs to this period (1790~1791), but the autograph is lost. All editions of Kochel have followed Otto Jahn in assigning it to Mozart's stay in Munich from November 1780 to March 1781, but there is little to be said in favor of this."_
> -Mozart: Studies of the Autograph Scores By Alan Tyson, page 342
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=gmDterwnn4EC&pg=PA342
> 
> ...


_"When exactly it was completed is uncertain, but the eminent scholar H. C. Robbins Landon reasons that it was not as late as suggested by those who have called it an "audition" piece for the post of Kapellmeister at Vienna's St. Stephen's Church, which would have been around 1788. He also disputes its provenance during the stint in Munich in the early 1780s, an argument supported by the inclusion of clarinets which were not available in Salzburg. A third notion places it - together with the two late monuments of Mozart's oeuvre, - the "Great" C Minor Mass and the Requiem - in the pile of incomplete works finished by others after his death."_
https://lamasterchorale.org/concert_detail.php?concert_id=110


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