# Be Honest Here 5#: Do you enjoy, like or understand piano quartets?



## Guest

The piano quartet along with other solo music involving the violin/viola/cello is one of the classical music genres which i do not like.

The piano does not complement the string at all in piano quartets when paired *exclusively.*

What about you? Do you like it?


----------



## moody

karajan said:


> The piano quartet along with other solo music involving the violin/viola/cello is one of the classical music genres which i do not like.
> 
> The piano does not complement the string at all in piano quartets when paired *exclusively.*
> 
> What about you? Do you like it?


What string and PAIRED with what?


----------



## Novelette

Yes.

I like Beethoven's, Mendelssohn's, Brahms', Schumann's, Faure's, Mozart's, Dvorak's, Weber's.

I like the genre because I like these works, they show us how complex and interesting this arrangement can be and they reveal the deep acoustic possibilities created by this mixture of sonority.

Plus, I love the contrast of the piano and the strings, hence, I also enjoy piano trios and quintets.


----------



## Guest

@Novelette it is the very contrast which make these works so unlikeable. 

@moody as the sentence states when paired exclusively with the piano.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Personally, I never had a problem with that genre. Now that you bring it up, I'll have to listen more closely and get annoyed.


----------



## ptr

Mr Karajan Sir, You seem to have a lot of problems with various types of Classical Music. A top tip when this happens, put it aside and leave it to grow on You, things You don't care for today might my next years model, classical music equation has two fundamental variables, open ears (ie. curiosity) and patience, without these two Your experience will never amount to anything other then an enjoyable soundtrack to Your life (which for some, may be big enough and should not be frowned up on!)...

And yes, the ptr loves Piano trios, quartets, quintets, sextets, septets, octets, nonets and really any numbered form of chamber music with piano and to be honest he loves most of the chamber music there are! 

/ptr


----------



## Quartetfore

On recordings of Piano Trios there seems to be an inbalance, what I mean is that Unless the recording is correct it can sound like a Piano concerto. You don`t often find this in recordings of Piano Quartets


----------



## ahammel

Seems like a weird genre to have a hang-up about. I like them fine. Fauré wrote some good ones.


----------



## Sonata

I don't know as many piano quartets as I do trios or sonatas with 1 string instrument + piano, but I like them just fine and look forward to hearing more. The above noted Faure's for instance, definitely want to get around to his.


----------



## DavidA

I must say that I listened to Dvorak's piano quartet recently and really enjoyed it. I haven't got round to listening to the Mahler quartet on the same set. I'm bracing myself!


----------



## Pianoxtreme

I love piano quartets. The strings contrast the piano quite well, and it achieves a nice effect.


----------



## ahammel

DavidA said:


> I must say that I listened to Dvorak's piano quartet recently and really enjoyed it. I haven't got round to listening to the Mahler quartet on the same set. I'm bracing myself!


Wait, Mahler scored something for fewer than 100 instruments?


----------



## Ukko

Aha! This latest evidence confirms my suspicion: You are _not_ a teenager, you are a ~40 y.o. social scientist conducting a study, probably regarding the willingness of classical music buffs to assist the ignorant. Maybe including how far that rubber band can stretch?


----------



## Marisol

karajan said:


> The piano quartet along with other solo music involving the violin/viola/cello is one of the classical music genres which i do not like.
> 
> The piano does not complement the string at all in piano quartets when paired *exclusively.*
> 
> What about you? Do you like it?


I would agree that there are a few issues in chamber music combining the piano with string instruments.

1. Intonation
Strings can play Pythagorean melody lines and can play just intonation and continue this if the music modulates to new keys. The piano cannot and is usually tuned equal temperament (not exactly but that is another discussion).

2. Loudness
The piano is often too loud in comparison to the string instruments.

3. Color
This is of course subjective but I consider the piano sound extremely cold when contrasted against strings.

However it must be noted that many classical (and early romantic) chamber pieces played with a piano where not composed for a piano at all. For instance Haydn's and Mozart's chamber music work in my opinion much better on the fortepiano. The action of the keys invites more 'sparkling' action, the color matches the string instruments better and the sound level is more compatible.

Obviously later chamber material was written with the piano in mind and should be played on the piano.


----------



## Skilmarilion

DavidA said:


> I haven't got round to listening to the Mahler quartet on the same set. I'm bracing myself!


The Mahler is magnificent, leaves you wondering what could have been ... 

The piano works really well in chamber pieces. I think SQ's can get bogged down at times in terms of texture, so the contrast can be quite welcome.


----------



## Mahlerian

ahammel said:


> Wait, Mahler scored something for fewer than 100 instruments?


Frequently, in his lieder.


----------



## ahammel

Marisol said:


> I would agree that there are a few issues in chamber music combining the piano with string instruments.
> 
> 1. Intonation
> Strings can play Pythagorean melody lines and can play just intonation and continue this if the music modulates to new keys. The piano cannot and is usually tuned equal temperament (not exactly but that is another discussion).
> 
> 2. Loudness
> The piano is often too loud in comparison to the string instruments.
> 
> 3. Color
> This is of course subjective but I consider the piano sound extremely cold when contrasted against strings.


1. and 2. are solved by listening to piano quartets played by musicians who have the slightest clue what they're doing.

I have honestly never had a problem with 3.


----------



## DavidA

Skilmarilion said:


> The Mahler is magnificent, leaves you wondering what could have been ...
> 
> The piano works really well in chamber pieces. I think SQ's can get bogged down at times in terms of texture, so the contrast can be quite welcome.


Just playing it now. Part of the Lugano 2012 set. I'm not fond of Mahler but this sounds really good.


----------



## Sonata

Skilmarilion said:


> *The Mahler is magnificent, leaves you wondering what could have been ... *
> 
> The piano works really well in chamber pieces. I think SQ's can get bogged down at times in terms of texture, so the contrast can be quite welcome.


Indeed! I love that piece.


----------



## Ravndal

Chamber music is not a genre i have fallen for yet. The strings sounds a bit screechy when they work alone. But it helps when there is a piano included.

Though, there is plenty of chamber work i like.

So I'm voting yes - i like _*piano*_ quartets.


----------



## Feathers

I voted "yes I enjoy piano quartets", but honestly I don't think I can say that I "like" or "dislike" a genre (or subgenre) of music for simply what it is and what instruments it uses. It really depends on how much I like the composers and works associated with those instruments, and since I only listen to the piano quartets I like (because why would I spend tons of time listening to the ones I don't like), I voted "yes".


----------



## violadude

The only quartet that gets on my nerves is that quartet for three dogs and siren that my neighbor sometimes plays.


----------



## Novelette

karajan said:


> @Novelette it is the very contrast which make these works so unlikeable.


I'm not quite sure I understand. The contrast of a piano quartet is nothing compared to a whole orchestra, do you also dislike all music for full orchestras?

That excludes virtually all symphonies [except string symphonies, I suppose; perhaps wind symphonies have too much contrast still?], operas, masses [except polyphonic works?], sonatas for instruments paired with piano, a great portion of chamber works...

What does that even leave? Solo piano works, string quartets/trios/duet/solos, possibly polyphonic vocal music, organ music, solo harp/harpsichord music?


----------



## Guest

Hilltroll72 said:


> Aha! This latest evidence confirms my suspicion: You are _not_ a teenager, you are a ~40 y.o. social scientist conducting a study, probably regarding the willingness of classical music buffs to assist the ignorant. Maybe including how far that rubber band can stretch?


hahaha. No, no. I am a 15 year old *teenager* a lot of curiosity. Musical curiosity that is... XD


----------



## Guest

Novelette said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand. The contrast of a piano quartet is nothing compared to a whole orchestra, do you also dislike all music for full orchestras?
> 
> That excludes virtually all symphonies [except string symphonies, I suppose; perhaps wind symphonies have too much contrast still?], operas, masses [except polyphonic works?], sonatas for instruments paired with piano, a great portion of chamber works...
> 
> What does that even leave? Solo piano works, string quartets/trios/duet/solos, possibly polyphonic vocal music, organ music, solo harp/harpsichord music?


Perhaps the screeching sound of the string with piano and not the contrast.


----------



## Marisol

Novelette said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand. The contrast of a piano quartet is nothing compared to a whole orchestra, do you also dislike all music for full orchestras?


I can't speak for karajan, but he may refer to the difference in color between strings instruments and the piano.

I certainly would agree with that, the piano in my opinion does not mix very well with string instruments at the chamber level. I think the fortepiano works a bit better in that respect. Classical and many romantic chamber pieces should should in my opinion be played on the fortepiano.

I am curious, are there people here who think that a piano pretty much melts with a string quartet and creates a perfect sound balance?


----------



## Ukko

Marisol said:


> I can't speak for karajan, but he may refer to the difference in color between strings instruments and the piano.
> 
> I certainly would agree with that, the piano in my opinion does not mix very well with string instruments at the chamber level. I think the fortepiano works a bit better in that respect. Classical and many romantic chamber pieces should should in my opinion be played on the fortepiano.
> 
> I am curious, are there people here who think that a piano pretty much melts with a string quartet and creates a perfect sound balance?


_Melts with_? That is required for "a perfect sound balance"? Whassmatter for you? That wouldn't be "balance"; there needs to be weight on both sides of the scales for _balance_.


----------



## moody

karajan said:


> hahaha. No, no. I am a 15 year old *teenager* a lot of curiosity. Musical curiosity that is... XD


What about the other type ?


----------



## GodNickSatan

Marisol said:


> I can't speak for karajan, but he may refer to the difference in color between strings instruments and the piano.
> 
> I certainly would agree with that, the piano in my opinion does not mix very well with string instruments at the chamber level. I think the fortepiano works a bit better in that respect. Classical and many romantic chamber pieces should should in my opinion be played on the fortepiano.
> 
> I am curious, are there people here who think that a piano pretty much melts with a string quartet and creates a perfect sound balance?


I definitely hear what you're saying. I feel Mozart's violin sonatas work a lot better on a fortepiano. It's just a better balance between the two instruments. I wanna hear a recording of Beethoven's piano trios played on fortepiano next. I don't love them as much as I feel I should, so maybe I just haven't heard the right recording yet.


----------



## GodNickSatan

A good example of what Marisol is talking about.


----------



## Geo Dude

Marisol said:


> I can't speak for karajan, but he may refer to the difference in color between strings instruments and the piano.
> 
> I certainly would agree with that, the piano in my opinion does not mix very well with string instruments at the chamber level. I think the fortepiano works a bit better in that respect. Classical and many romantic chamber pieces should should in my opinion be played on the fortepiano.


Agreed, with the caveat that a pianoforte should be used for romantic era chamber music.


----------



## ahammel

Marisol said:


> I am curious, are there people here who think that a piano pretty much melts with a string quartet and creates a perfect sound balance?


It is certainly possible to write effectively for the modern piano and strings. Ravel's Piano Trio, one of my favourite pieces of music, is beautifully balanced when played well on modern instruments.

For classical to early romantic piano and string ensemble music, I agree that a Steinway is not going to be the weapon of choice.


----------



## GodNickSatan

Hey, I posted something on Schubert and peeyaj hasn't responded. What's going on?


----------



## Geo Dude

ahammel said:


> It is certainly possible to write effectively for the modern piano and strings. Ravel's Piano Trio, one of my favourite pieces of music, is beautifully balanced when played well on modern instruments.
> 
> For classical to early romantic piano and string ensemble music, I agree that a Steinway is not going to be the weapon of choice.


I think that's the key issue here. Ravel (and other 20th century composers) were writing with an instrument in mind that was much closer to the modern Steinway than, say, Mozart (even Brahms, for that matter), and thus the balance is better because it was written with a loud, powerful piano in mind.


----------



## hpowders

Just saw this thread.

Sure. I enjoy the two Mozart Piano Quartets, Schumann Piano Quartet and the three Brahms Piano Quartets.

What's there to understand? Just listen to the great music!!


----------



## pianolearnerstride

There was a time recently when I also felt piano and strings didn't mesh.... Something about the piano concerto felt wrong to me. But that all changed after I watched to this:


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I adore the genre. I would love to write one myself.
Perhaps the OP has heard only substandard works/performances.


----------



## PeterF

I very very much like many piano quartets. The objections raised by some about the balance and volume of strings and piano can be readily resolved. On recordings the skill of the recording engineer is highly important. In live performances it is the skill of the 4 musicians in knowing how to perform in the piano quartet setting. Also how high to open the top of the piano can have a large effect on the volume.
Personally, I am not a fan of the fortepiano. The sound of a modern piano is much more my preference. It is just a matter of individual taste. Listening to, for example, Arthur Rubinstein on modern piano play the Mozart Piano quartets is pure joy for me.


----------



## mstar

Though I haven't really paid attention to why, but I tend to enjoy piano trios more than piano quartets... I'll have to mull over this thread a little...


----------



## Ingélou

mstar! How nice to see you. Hope you are well & enjoying life? :tiphat:
Geo Dude, au contraire, seems to have disappeared. 

These bumped threads are always interesting, to check on the posting personel.


----------



## Dim7

I answered yes, but I missed the part "Be honest here" in the title so I answered dishonestly.


----------

