# My Theory



## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I have marveled at why the non-classical non-musical threads are so popular around here. And also, within the classical threads, why are the games so popular.

And I have a theory. 

I think perhaps the atmosphere in the classical threads becomes toxic so quickly. Folks are afraid to say they like something for fear of being considered a simplistic fanboy, or to afraid to say they dislike something for fear being considered a moron. Afraid to ask a simple question because they will get lectured, or reminded how naive they are.

It takes guts, I have found, to post in the classical music threads. And while I find it worth it for all the things I have learned, and since it is the only place I can do this, still, I understand folks taking refuge in "what did you eat today" threads, and "favorite Opera Name starting with "L" a knockout game." 

Refuge. Something is not as healthy as it should be.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

JeffD, I think your theory does hold true for some (unknown) percentage of our members. There are many alternate explanations, though, for individuals' behaviors here: I will be happy to share mine--I don't hold back telling people I like things, as I believe totally in the primacy of my tastes. I almost never post about what I don't like because I prefer to share the strong positive links with others of shared enthusiasms, rather than the dubious and feeble links of shared dislikes. I have little interest in games and polls, but I enjoy a great deal of non-classical music as well as classical music. Hope that explains something.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

interesting theory. Would also explain why a lot of music threads get no action, too.

But for me, the fear factor does not exist. I am trained musician, and I've played professionally for decades, so I just don't worry about it. So what if I say something stupid? I still have performances on the calendar, my phone still rings....

but it could be that willingness to accept that I am not perfect that might be exactly why I'm a busy performer. I take chances. I say "yes" to things that might be over my head. I accept performing challenges and I'm not afraid to make mistakes

...which is probably why I reply to so many music threads :lol:


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

JeffD said:


> I have marveled at why the non-classical non-musical threads are so popular around here. And also, within the classical threads, why are the games so popular.
> 
> And I have a theory.
> 
> ...


What a very strange attitude! Why does it concern you so much why other people behave as they do? Seems to me you're being deliberately provocative. "Toxic atmosphere", "Takes guts", "not as healthy" - you seem to have an overactive imagination!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

LezLee said:


> What a very strange attitude! Why does it concern you so much why other people behave as they do? Seems to me you're being deliberately provocative. "Toxic atmosphere", "Takes guts", "not as healthy" - you seem to have an overactive imagination!


I take it your above post is a lampoon of the sort of posting that JeffD is concerned about, yes?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> I take it your above post is a lampoon of the sort of posting that JeffD is concerned about, yes?


Well spotted SM. I certainly hope that's the case?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

JeffD said:


> I have marveled at why the non-classical non-musical threads are so popular around here. And also, within the classical threads, why are the games so popular.
> 
> And I have a theory.
> 
> I think perhaps the atmosphere in the classical threads becomes toxic so quickly. Folks are afraid to say they like something for fear of being considered a simplistic fanboy, or to afraid to say they dislike something for fear being considered a moron. Afraid to ask a simple question because they will get lectured, or reminded how naive they are.


A thread can only become toxic if one of more of the thread participants has a toxic nature. Thank goodness that those types of folks stay away from the TC games.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

The only thing people have in common here is an interest in classical music, that's the fundamental draw of the forum. So other than that, given that there are all sorts of "people" on here, stuff is bound to happen. There are ones that get upset or offended by just about anything and ones that are like bulls in a China shop.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I take it your above post is a lampoon of the sort of posting that JeffD is concerned about, yes?


Only LezLee can say! I didn't take it as such.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

dogen said:


> Only LezLee can say! I didn't take it as such.


That's why I asked for a clarification from LezLee. We'll hope for a reply.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't know.It seems to me there is a wider variety of participants in the classical music threads than in the bagatelle-like threads in this section.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> That's why I asked for a clarification from LezLee. We'll hope for a reply.


Nope. I honestly don't understand JeffD's 'theory'. I've not been on this forum very long (yes I joined in 2014 but haven't posted till October 2017) but haven't seen any of the attitudes he refers to. People enjoy the non-music threads as somewhere to loosen up and get to know each other's opinions away from the slightly more serious and sometimes uptight atmosphere on the main music threads. And I reiterate I don't understand why other people's attitudes bother him so.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

The non-classical forum has been uncomfortable for me ever since I posted about Nickelback in the Current Listening thread.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I am satisfied with LezLee's reply. He several times states that he does not understand, and I believe him.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> I am satisfied with LezLee's reply. He several times states that he does not understand, and I believe him.


I'm actually an elderly woman, though you'd no way of knowing that.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

.............


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

LezLee said:


> I'm actually an elderly woman, though you'd no way of knowing that.


I am absolutely certain that at least half of the above post is correct .


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

Blancrocher said:


> The non-classical forum has been uncomfortable for me ever since I posted about Nickelback in the Current Listening thread.


Perhaps that's why you hold the record for being on the most Ignore lists.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

LezLee said:


> Nope. I honestly don't understand JeffD's 'theory'. I've not been on this forum very long (yes I joined in 2014 but haven't posted till October 2017) but haven't seen any of the attitudes he refers to. People enjoy the non-music threads as somewhere to loosen up and get to know each other's opinions away from the slightly more serious and sometimes uptight atmosphere on the main music threads. And I reiterate I don't understand why other people's attitudes bother him so.


Some of the threads regarding atonal music got extremely heated resulting in several great contributors leaving the forum. Some of the Wagner threads used to get pretty hairy too although we all seem to be singing off the same hymn sheet these days.

If you want to see friction start a thread about the merits of Berg and Schönberg or the importance or otherwise of 4' 33" in the musical firmament?


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Some of the threads regarding atonal music got extremely heated resulting in several great contributors leaving the forum. Some of the Wagner threads used to get pretty hairy too although we all seem to be singing off the same hymn sheet these days.
> 
> If you want to see friction start a thread about the merits of Berg and Schönberg or the importance or otherwise of 4' 33" in the musical firmament?


Those threads did, but it's not the topics (clearly); it's peoples reactions to some of the opinions, assertions etc that are the "toxicity." I imagine I can be as guilty of this as the next person, but I think there can be a tendency sometimes to feel somehow so wedded to an opinion that a critique of that opinion can feel like a critique of the person....hence the rise in temperature. Just a theory...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Generally speaking, posts here don't upset me. But there is an exception - when somebody posts something that's not just wrong, but vilely, infamously wrong. Something like, "Haydn is boring." Then my eyes mist over with a red haze, there's a roaring in my ears, and I reach for my ax. Like Delbert Grady in _The Shining_, "I have to correct them." :devil:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Generally speaking, posts here don't upset me. But there is an exception - when somebody posts something that's not just wrong, but vilely, infamously wrong. Something like, "Haydn is boring." Then my eyes mist over with a red haze, there's a roaring in my ears, and I reach for my ax. Like Delbert Grady in _The Shining_, "I have to correct them." :devil:


Ah, but which Haydn?


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Generally speaking, posts here don't upset me. But there is an exception - when somebody posts something that's not just wrong, but vilely, infamously wrong. Something like, "Haydn is boring." Then my eyes mist over with a red haze, there's a roaring in my ears, and I reach for my ax. Like Delbert Grady in _The Shining_, "I have to correct them." :devil:


Indeed, Emanuel Ax can be quite soothing.......


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

eugeneonagain said:


> I don't know.It seems to me there is a wider variety of participants in the classical music threads than in the bagatelle-like threads in this section.


Not only "wider" but a much more cultured and refined group than the rabble - the dreadful rubbish - which loiters around this particular thread...(Note I am excluding the following from the above quote - the "rabble" and "dreadful rubbish" part - not the "more cultured and refined" bit...JeffD...Strange Magic...Nate Miller...LezLee...Strange Magic(again)...Barbeque...Bulldog...Dogen...Dogen (again)...Strange Magic (yet again)...Eugeneonagain...LezLee (again)...Blancrocher...Strange Magic (Christ! - Again?)...LezLee (Christ! - Again?)...Tulse...Strange Magic (oh, honestly...)...Dogen (sigh...)...Barbeque (again)...Dogen (again...sigh...)...KenOC...Barbeque (yet again?)...LezLee (Christ! - yet again?)...and finally me...

Anyone who posts after me will have to _declare themselves_ as either "cultured and refined" or "rabble - the dreadful rubbish"...

Come to think of it..."Rabble the Dreadful Rubbish" sounds like a really cool Prog rock band, eh?...

We should start our own "Prog Rock" band - I call dibs on "bagpipes"! - (I can actually play - it's a long story for a different time but basically I called my mom's bluff about "having" to learn an instrument and she decided to call mine by actually setting me up for bagpipe lessons - I'm really talented although at some point I usually get kind of carried away and sound as if I'm completely unhinged if not outright psychotic when I start skirling like a whirling dervish...

This is what I sound like when I'm sitting in a hotel room by myself in Winnipeg, Manitoba with no one to talk to...Don't worry...tomorrow I fly to Saskatoon and you'll be done with me...unless I find myself sitting in a hotel room by myself in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan...

The girlfriend who claims to "love me more than life itself" and who will "follow me to the ends of the earth" has decided that the "ends of the earth" stops short of any Canadian province east of British Columbia...Kind of have a feeling that once I sign that professional contract to play hockey the "ends of the earth" will magically include Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba...but probably still not Ontario and definitely not Quebec...and you can forget about the Maritimes...and not even "I" would follow "me" to Newfoundland and I'm "me"...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> The girlfriend who claims to "love me more than life itself" and who will "follow me to the ends of the earth" has decided that the "ends of the earth" stops short of any Canadian province east of British Columbia...Kind of have a feeling that once I sign that professional contract to play hockey the "ends of the earth" will magically include Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba...but probably still not Ontario and definitely not Quebec...and you can forget about the Maritimes...and not even "I" would follow "me" to Newfoundland and I'm "me"...


It sounds like she will have nunavut


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

P.S. Personally I would draw the line at anything east of Vancouver Island.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

I like to post non-CM threads as well, because there are smart people around, and I feel limiting the discussion only to CM really strange. Actually I'd like to discuss more about politics, history etc. with this group, but I try to honor the "agenda" of this board as much as I can


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> Not only "wider" but a much more cultured and refined group than the rabble - the dreadful rubbish - which loiters around this particular thread...(Note I am excluding the following from the above quote - the "rabble" and "dreadful rubbish" part - not the "more cultured and refined" bit...JeffD...Strange Magic...Nate Miller...LezLee...Strange Magic(again)...Barbeque...Bulldog...Dogen...Dogen (again)...Strange Magic (yet again)...Eugeneonagain...LezLee (again)...Blancrocher...Strange Magic (Christ! - Again?)...LezLee (Christ! - Again?)...Tulse...Strange Magic (oh, honestly...)...Dogen (sigh...)...Barbeque (again)...Dogen (again...sigh...)...KenOC...Barbeque (yet again?)...LezLee (Christ! - yet again?)...and finally me...
> 
> Anyone who posts after me will have to _declare themselves_ as either "cultured and refined" or "rabble - the dreadful rubbish"...
> 
> ...


Just when I thought it was safe........ And less of the barbeque or I will be taking steps........


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Lenny said:


> I like to post non-CM threads as well, because there are smart people around, and I feel limiting the discussion only to CM really strange. Actually I'd like to discuss more about politics, history etc. with this group, but I try to honor the "agenda" of this board as much as I can


Start a Group. Invite your smart people. Harass them into participating.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Lenny said:


> I like to post non-CM threads as well, because there are smart people around, and I feel limiting the discussion only to CM really strange. Actually I'd like to discuss more about politics, history etc. with this group, but I try to honor the "agenda" of this board as much as I can


Lenny, you simply must come downstairs to Groups! Politics? History? We got Politics! We got History! We got Science, Books, even (gasp) Religion, and more people are trickling in. You can start a Group of your own, on just about any topic you want . C'mon Down!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

* Groups/Social Groups: A Notice to New/Reminder to Old Members*

With an influx of Amazonians and other new members, this is a notice that, in the dark catacombs beneath TalkClassical's broad sunlit uplands, one will find the Groups. There, bloviators, soap box orators, and obsessives discuss many subjects--some related to music, others definitely not. In practice, we are few in number, but believe this to be because most members either don't know that the Groups exist, or are part of a vast conspiracy to suppress something/anything/everything . Politics, religion, history, science, books, many composers and sorts of music discussion can be found there.

How to access Groups: Go to the thin black bar just under the blue-grey bar under the Talk Classical masthead. Click or tap "Community", then click or tap on "groups", and you're there. Scroll to the bottom right and you'll find the complete listing of Groups. Bring your friends; the more the merrier, and the more vibrant and maybe contentious (though the mods do check in now and then, but display admirable circumspection and tolerance).


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Ah, but which Haydn?


The boring one. D'oh


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Just when I thought it was safe........ And less of the barbeque or I will be taking steps........


I didn't actually know that I was doing that until I read your reply... my apologies! - It was late and I was tired and I thought I was typing "Barbebleu" but imagine my surprise to see what I had written...besides if you let DA call you that you should cut me some slack, eh?

If it wasn't too late I would edit the post but let me make amends by announcing that his name is

*Barbebleu* not repeat not "*Barbeque*"... Again, my apologies, my friend..


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> I didn't actually know that I was doing that until I read your reply... my apologies! - It was late and I was tired and I thought I was typing "Barbebleu" but imagine my surprise to see what I had written...besides if you let DA call you that you should cut me some slack, eh?
> 
> If it wasn't too late I would edit the post but let me make amends by announcing that his name is
> 
> *Barbebleu* not repeat not "*Barbeque*"... Again, my apologies, my friend..


(Pedants' Corner) I'm sorry but this seems a good time to point out that *Brittania should be Britannia*


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Lenny, you simply must come downstairs to Groups! Politics? History? We got Politics! We got History! We got Science, Books, even (gasp) Religion, and more people are trickling in. You can start a Group of your own, on just about any topic you want . C'mon Down!


Right, I actually forgot about groups! That is a big scary step for a mere forum poster, but others seem to have taken that, so..


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Lenny said:


> Right, I actually forgot about groups! That is a big scary step for a mere forum poster, but others seem to have taken that, so..


We are all mere forum posters. 

Just some are more mere than others.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

LezLee said:


> (Pedants' Corner) I'm sorry but this seems a good time to point out that *Brittania should be Britannia*


I did that on purpose...That's the way the title appeared on Budgie's 1976 release... but you brought up a really good point as there's no sense in being too clever for one's good...

I'll change it ASAP...although you know that as soon as I do so some wag will write (Pedants' Corner) I'm sorry but this seems a good time to point out that Budgie's 1976 album was purposely misspelled Brittania for a laugh...


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> I did that on purpose...That's the way the title appeared on Budgie's 1976 release... but you brought up a really good point as there's no sense in being too clever for one's good...
> 
> I'll change it ASAP...although you know that as soon as I do so some wag will write (Pedants' Corner) I'm sorry but this seems a good time to point out that Budgie's 1976 album was purposely misspelled Brittania for a laugh...


Sod it! Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the Budgie ouevre. :tiphat:


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

While there is some truth to this, it's also simply the fact that once an online community is established, people like to discuss more than just the forum's primary topic. We want to know each other better and share information about our lives that isn't necessarily connected to classical music. In fact, some people may lose interest in the forum's topic but continue to post in the "off-topic" section (I've seen this happen on tech forums that I post on). So some of the popularity of this section is just due to the fact that we all like to share bits and pieces about our lives and isn't necessarily due to any resentment of the forum's main section. That said, I agree that posts about likes and dislikes get negative fast. I basically just completely avoid any thread with the words "modern" and "contemporary" in the title and I have to insert many disclaimers when discussing why I dislike something or why I like a piece that's popular with "rubes".


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

SM I have to applaud your tenacity with regard to promoting the groups. There's not much going on there and I don't think it's necessarily because people are unaware of them. If there are discussions to be had there, that can't be had here, it's like there are two (or more forums) and the main forum itself is enough to be going on with.

One thing that doesn't appeal to me is the self-indentification of joining a group such as: "Right-Wing Blowhards - where we imagine we talk common sense," or some such. I wouldn't want to even enter a place like that because I know what's there, but then it means it's like little bubble where like-minded folk agree with one another. Either that or a couple of intruders are given the run-around and become exhausted. No thanks.

And why can't I talk about books or art or cats in this section? To me the groups seem redundant.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Tristan said:


> While there is some truth to this, it's also simply the fact that once an online community is established, people like to discuss more than just the forum's primary topic. We want to know each other better and share information about our lives that isn't necessarily connected to classical music. In fact, some people may lose interest in the forum's topic but continue to post in the "off-topic" section (I've seen this happen on tech forums that I post on). So some of the popularity of this section is just due to the fact that we all like to share bits and pieces about our lives and isn't necessarily due to any resentment of the forum's main section. That said, I agree that posts about likes and dislikes get negative fast. I basically just completely avoid any thread with the words "modern" and "contemporary" in the title and I have to insert many disclaimers when discussing why I dislike something or why I like a piece that's popular with "rubes".


What's a rube??..


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

eugeneonagain said:


> SM I have to applaud your tenacity with regard to promoting the groups. There's not much going on there and I don't think it's necessarily because people are unaware of them. If there are discussions to be had there, that can't be had here, it's like there are two (or more forums) and the main forum itself is enough to be going on with.
> 
> One thing that doesn't appeal to me is the self-indentification of joining a group such as: "Right-Wing Blowhards - where we imagine we talk common sense," or some such. I wouldn't want to even enter a place like that because I know what's there, but then it means it's like little bubble where like-minded folk agree with one another. Either that or a couple of intruders are given the run-around and become exhausted. No thanks.
> 
> And why can't I talk about books or art or cats in this section? To me the groups seem redundant.


One man's meat is another woman's appalling slaughter of sentient beings.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

dogen said:


> What's a rube??..


An uninformed, unsophisticated, or unintelligent person, i.e. a "countrified rube".


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

dogen said:


> One man's meat is another woman's appalling slaughter of sentient beings.


Are you a lady? (not in the Little Britain sense of a 'Lady').


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Tristan said:


> An uninformed, unsophisticated, or unintelligent person, i.e. a "countrified rube".


Like a yokel or a bumpkin... make me think of that old Whizzer and Chips comic strip 'The Bumpkin Billionaires'.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Damn the non edit function in this section!!:devil: Al my typos remain visible!


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Tristan said:


> An uninformed, unsophisticated, or unintelligent person, i.e. a "countrified rube".


you city folk crack me up :lol:


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

LezLee said:


> What a very strange attitude! Why does it concern you so much why other people behave as they do? Seems to me you're being deliberately provocative. "Toxic atmosphere", "Takes guts", "not as healthy" - you seem to have an overactive imagination!


Let me try to explain.

Where I live and where I work there very few fans of classical music. I have met them all. And indeed had great coffee laden conversations with them.

I found TC less than a year ago and thought it was exactly what i wanted. And in large part it is.

But more that a few times good informative useful conversations devolve into deliberately argumentative, subtly insulting, four year old wrangling. More often than I like I see the poster give up in disgust, and I imagine some folks snickering "turned back another one".

Now I am a big boy, I can take it. But perhaps I am more sensitive than some to anything that risks one of the few places where I can any chance of feeling at home talking about the music I love.

When this place is good, its really really good. And when the good is at risk, its heartbreaking.

There are many sites to get good talk about books, movies, history, politics, what I had to drink, etc. I am not sure why I would do that here, (except that it is here, and while I am here I often get attracted to this or that topic.) The point is that its not the reason I come here.

I may have an overactive imagination, but I am not hallucinating. When someone enthusiastically posts about a music they love and someone comes back calling it "baby music", it doesn't take an overactive imagination to see it how someone can feel burned. It does not encourage others sitting on the side lines deciding to ask a question. (It might even be that the music is immature or simple minded, and I might even be interested in discussing whether it is or not, but the way it is said does not contribute to a conversation, it discourages it.)

Anyway, I will turn off the rant. I just love what this place could be, and is, much of the time. I don't want to lose it.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

To be fair, I have already thought about the international, multi-cultural aspect of all of this. That perhaps a particular style of discourse that is benign in one culture may be perceived as provocative in another. Maybe so. I will pay more attention.

At the same time, in my work, I interact with people from all over the world, and I think I can usually distinguish deliberate discourtesy and competitive (combative?) talk from, say, a benign cultural frankness.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

eugeneonagain said:


> Are you a lady? (not in the Little Britain sense of a 'Lady').


No, I just happen to look hot in stilettos.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

JeffD said:


> To be fair, I have already thought about the international, multi-cultural aspect of all of this. That perhaps a particular style of discourse that is benign in one culture may be perceived as provocative in another. Maybe so. I will pay more attention.
> 
> At the same time, in my work, I interact with people from all over the world, and I think I can usually distinguish deliberate discourtesy and competitive (combative?) talk from, say, a benign cultural frankness.


I've wondered about this too. The few times I've communicated with Japanese people (at work), they are incredibly polite. So polite in fact that if they were English, you'd assume they were taking the wet. Aside from individual differences, I think people from the same country are likely to share a similar M.O. in their communications (or at least understand "where" the other person is coming from).


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

dogen said:


> I've wondered about this too. The few times I've communicated with Japanese people (at work), they are incredibly polite. So polite in fact that if they were English, you'd assume they were taking the wet. Aside from individual differences, I think people from the same country are likely to share a similar M.O. in their communications (or at least understand "where" the other person is coming from).


I agree. I post on a knitting/needlework forum which has mostly American posters and find throwaway remarks intended to be amusing are often misunderstood because I've completely misjudged how they appear to people from other countries and cultures.
I certainly hadn't realised how many people don't have English as their first language. I'm trying to be more thoughtful here and hope I'm managing not to upset anyone.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> I didn't actually know that I was doing that until I read your reply... my apologies! - It was late and I was tired and I thought I was typing "Barbebleu" but imagine my surprise to see what I had written...besides if you let DA call you that you should cut me some slack, eh?
> 
> If it wasn't too late I would edit the post but let me make amends by announcing that his name is
> 
> *Barbebleu* not repeat not "*Barbeque*"... Again, my apologies, my friend..


DA calls me Barbie which is o.k., but not Klaus Barbie which would not, under any circumstances, be o.k.:lol:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> SM I have to applaud your tenacity with regard to promoting the groups. There's not much going on there and I don't think it's necessarily because people are unaware of them. If there are discussions to be had there, that can't be had here, it's like there are two (or more forums) and the main forum itself is enough to be going on with.
> 
> One thing that doesn't appeal to me is the self-indentification of joining a group such as: "Right-Wing Blowhards - where we imagine we talk common sense," or some such. I wouldn't want to even enter a place like that because I know what's there, but then it means it's like little bubble where like-minded folk agree with one another. Either that or a couple of intruders are given the run-around and become exhausted. No thanks.
> 
> And why can't I talk about books or art or cats in this section? To me the groups seem redundant.


Your absence from Groups is understandable. Please note that no one (that I know of) has ever suggested that books, or art or cats cannot be talked about exactly where we are now. Remain calm, and carry on .


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

LezLee said:


> I agree. I post on a knitting/needlework forum which has mostly American posters and find throwaway remarks intended to be amusing are often misunderstood because I've completely misjudged how they appear to people from other countries and cultures.
> I certainly hadn't realised how many people don't have English as their first language. I'm trying to be more thoughtful here and hope I'm managing not to upset anyone.


Who knew knitting could be so edgy!


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

It was certainly a big shock to me. It’s not just knitting needles they’re wielding..........


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

I agree with the OP. Nobody like to see the music they love subjected to an axe murder, so they participate in less threatening topics. A few weeks ago Nudge and Wink mentioned how several very interesting people don’t post here anymore. As a relatively new member he actually did the research and read zillions of past posts, God bless him. The challenge here is trying to squash five centuries of music into one forum- very difficult. It’s like creating a forum called “JS Bach and The Beatles”, and expect that there would be no disrespect in it.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I understand people's concerns about lack of friendliness on TC, but it just so happens that I myself joined a classical music forum with the conscious purpose of learning some clever putdowns that I might be able to employ in real life.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> I understand people's concerns about lack of friendliness on TC, but it just so happens that I myself joined a classical music forum with the conscious purpose of learning some clever putdowns that I might be able to employ in real life.


You mean TC isn't real life!! I'm devastated.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> You mean TC isn't real life!! I'm devastated.


Well, which colour pill did you take?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

dogen said:


> Well, which colour pill did you take?


Clearly the blue one! On the advice of the White Rabbit of course!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> You mean TC isn't real life!! I'm devastated.


Of course not. Most people in real life don't like classical music.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2018)

Ah, what the hell... practice doesn't start for an hour... one last post won't hurt... but after this it's so long (at least for a while), my friends... there is hockey to played! See ya in a couple of months or so...:tiphat:



JeffD said:


> Most people in real life don't like classical music.


And with damned good reason... I mean honestly...Have you ever actually listened to "Classical Music"? Who actually listens to "Classical Music"? Answer: No One... yep, no one...Name one...go ahead... name one person who actually listens to "Classical Music"... Stumped, eh? Thought so...:lol:

Everybody here knows that "Classical Music" is an oxymoron, right?

And with that... Strange Magic, my friend, dig deep into your LP collection, stop at "E", pull out "ELO 2", queue up the turntable, and drop the needle on Track One, Side One...

This is "Classical Music", my friends! Put on those blue suede shoes and join me as I dance my way out of the forum and onto the ice rink...but don't actually dance on the ice in blue suede shoes, eh? - You'll slip and fall! - and the forum doesn't carry insurance so you're SOL...

SM - HIT IT! -


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> Ah, what the hell... practice doesn't start for an hour... one last post won't hurt... but after this it's so long (at least for a while), my friends... there is hockey to played! See ya in a couple of months or so...:tiphat:
> 
> And with damned good reason... I mean honestly...Have you ever actually listened to "Classical Music"? Who actually listens to "Classical Music"? Answer: No One... yep, no one...Name one...go ahead... name one person who actually listens to "Classical Music"... Stumped, eh? Thought so...:lol:
> 
> ...


Well it's not "classical" and barely qualifies as music (apologies to all those ELO and Beatles wannabe, Jeff Lynne, fans out there). I do have a soft spot for Mr. Blue Sky though but that doesn't make me a bad person.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Adjective trouble again, suggesting that evolution doesn't apply to language.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

En garde monsieur! 

I rather like ELO and I think they always did a lot to promote the inclusion of the classical idiom into rock music. Perhaps in a less conventional way when Roy Wood was still a member.

As for who listens to classical music, well we all know it's middle-class people and social climbers looking for instant 'intellectual' cachet. I belong to the latter group..although I have largely failed in my endeavours.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> As for who listens to classical music, well we all know it's middle-class people and social climbers looking for instant 'intellectual' cachet. I belong to the latter group..although I have largely failed in my endeavours.


Yea, I have not found classical music to do much for my social life.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

JeffD said:


> Yea, I have not found classical music to do much for my social life.


You might be listening to the 'wrong' composers? Or not telling enough people that you listen to the 'right' ones. My advice is to try wearing a Mahler t-shirt.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

eugeneonagain said:


> I rather like ELO and I think they always did a lot to promote the inclusion of the classical idiom into rock music. Perhaps in a less conventional way when Roy Wood was still a member.


This one is even more "classical":


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Wait, wait, wait. The Community Forum isn't the main forum? That's news to me!



JeffD said:


> But more that a few times good informative useful conversations devolve into deliberately argumentative, subtly insulting, four year old wrangling.


Perhaps you should take solace in the fact that classical music fans are about as equally mature as many of the most famous classical music composers and performers! :lol:



JeffD said:


> I think perhaps the atmosphere in the classical threads becomes toxic so quickly. Folks are afraid to say they like something for fear of being considered a simplistic fanboy, or to afraid to say they dislike something for fear being considered a moron. Afraid to ask a simple question because they will get lectured, or reminded how naive they are.
> 
> It takes guts, I have found, to post in the classical music threads. And while I find it worth it for all the things I have learned, and since it is the only place I can do this, still, I understand folks taking refuge in "what did you eat today" threads, and "favorite Opera Name starting with "L" a knockout game."


I don't find the "main forum" to be toxic. Then again, I don't read threads about Wagner or atonal music. 

Actually, I don't read the "main forum" very often. I have not posted on there in about six months and I rarely check to see if there are any interesting posts on there because most of the non-deprofundis threads are just plain silly IMO. It should be noted that what we find to be silly is subjective so don't fly off the handle if you love the threads on the "main forum." There was recently a thread on the main forum about using sex to increase the number of classical listeners or something like that. That thread did capture my interest for a while, but threads like that are sadly rare IMO.

It seems to me that most of the threads on the "main forum" revolve around which of of the "great" composers are the greatest. I find that to be ridiculously boring. Again, that's subjective, but that is my view of things. In the last week, I've listened to CDs containing the music of Fux, Heinichen, Pleyel, Cannabich, Biber, Hummel, and a few other more popular composers not worth mentioning. I have no expectation that there will be threads about Pleyel on the main forum. I also don't expect a thread about Pleyel to garner much attention if I started one. If there are any threads about Pleyel, it's probably in a game about the greatest composers with a Z in their first name and a Y in their last name.  Whatever, it is what it is. I'd rather listen to music I enjoy than talk about it anyway.

One thing I do enjoy is talking to the beautiful, witty, and intelligent women of TC. The Community Forum seems like an appropriate place for such activities (well, some of them at least ). There's also some not-so-beautiful witty men of questionable intelligence that I enjoy talking to on the Community Forum. They're not as fun as the former group, but I'm sure they have good jokes to make about Fux and Cannabich! :lol: That's what the Community Forum is all about, classical music fans talking about how they enjoy listening to classical music or whatever else is on their mind/body.



JeffD said:


> Yea, I have not found classical music to do much for my social life.





eugeneonagain said:


> You might be listening to the 'wrong' composers? Or not telling enough people that you listen to the 'right' ones. My advice is to try wearing a Mahler t-shirt.


Nobody wants to talk to Mahler fans unless they're Bernstein. Maybe Bernstein secretly posts at TC, but that would just be weird. Given that, try a Pachelbel t-shirt instead. His fan club is more populous and better looking!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Klassik said:


> I don't find the "main forum" to be toxic. Then again, I don't read threads about Wagner or atonal music.


Those are the threads I'm drawn to like a moth to a flame. I am a fan of both 'atonal' music and Wagner's music (if you take the singing out) so I like it best when those two are pitted against one another...I feel like I'm always on the winning side either way.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> One thing I do enjoy is talking to the beautiful, witty, and intelligent women of TC. The Community Forum seems like an appropriate place for such activities ...


Overtly flirting to keep your love of classical music covert. Dude, maybe you have that backwards?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Interesting topic. We need more threads about atonal / tonal music to make posters mingle and feel more comfortable with the others on the same side they choose.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> Interesting topic. We need more threads about atonal / tonal music to make posters mingle and feel more comfortable with the others on the same side they choose.


I support a new forum for Wagner, atonal, and Cage. And everybody has to be _really _polite.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

JeffD said:


> Overtly flirting to keep your love of classical music covert. Dude, maybe you have that backwards?


Well, it's not like I have a choice in the real world! I try to integrate classical music references within my flirtations when I'm within the classical music world, but it can be difficult given my appreciation for lesser known composers. Sometimes I wonder if women truly understand my intent when I compare their beauty to that of a Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf double bass concerto.  They probably do understand my intent when I ask them to come check out my baton or oboe collection! 



Phil loves classical said:


> Interesting topic. We need more threads about atonal / tonal music to make posters mingle and feel more comfortable with the others on the same side they choose.


In this situation, is a 4'33" joke the best icebreaker or is 4'33" the ice that needs to be broken? 



eugeneonagain said:


> I am a fan of ... Wagner's music (if you take the singing out)


The way I see it, taking the singing out is the best way...or only way...to appreciate opera! :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2018)

eugeneonagain said:


> You might be listening to the 'wrong' composers? Or not telling enough people that you listen to the 'right' ones. My advice is to try wearing a Mahler t-shirt.


Mahler? Pah!

If you want to advance your art rock credentials, your t-shirt should read 'Prokofiev rules'.










<2nd guy down on this Renaissance album cover. Its not too clear.>


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Tulse said:


> If you want to advance your art rock credentials, your t-shirt should read 'Prokofiev rules'.


I've heard of that "Prokofiev Rules" before. Its sort of like "Australian Rules" but the ball is a bit larger, right?


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> I've heard of that "Prokofiev Rules" before. Its sort of like "Australian Rules" but the ball is a bit larger, right?


Thats the one! It's a Russian game played with a bottle of vodka rather than a footy ball. If you score a touchdown you get to drink the bottle.

It's a bit like cricket, the game goes on for days and days and usually doesn't finish.

I'll get my coat...


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

JeffD said:


> I have marveled at why the non-classical non-musical threads are so popular around here. And also, within the classical threads, why are the games so popular.
> 
> And I have a theory.
> 
> ...


 Jeff, i'm not really sure of what you fear here. Some may ridicule your opinions but there are probably an equal number who will support them. There are some bullies on this site, as on evry site, and as in life in general. I think that the bullies tend to get their comeuppance in time. By not venturing into the waters, you inhibit your natural curiousity to want to learn and share your experiences, and we are all poorer for it. Some come in , the waters fine, and shrug off the a******* . Every pony ride has to have a pile of manure somewhere.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2018)

JeffD said:


> I have marveled at why the non-classical non-musical threads are so popular around here. And also, within the classical threads, why are the games so popular.
> 
> And I have a theory.
> 
> ...


I listen to classical & non-classical music about half each. I'm mainly here to learn, and it seems to be the case that people who like classical music frequently have a good taste in non-classical too. So for me it is a win - win that both categories are supported.

One reason for lower participation in the classical threads may be a lack of musical education amongst the members, so a lot of technical topics can't be discussed by many of us. Another reason could be the amount of puerile topics that are started, and also the topics that are regurgitated _ad nauseum_.

I like the Community Forum because I live in a cultural wasteland so it is very rare for me to have anything approaching an intelligent conversation in the real world. Members here are in the main bright, witty and a pleasure to chew the fat with from time to time.

Nevertheless OP, you do raise a valid point. TC is a classical forum so it shouldn't lose its focus. Perhaps we should all think of new ways that we are able to engage in the main part of the message board.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I want one of those Prokofiev Rules T-shirts! Prokofiev actually does rule , and he agrees with me.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I want one of those Prokofiev Rules T-shirts! Prokofiev actually does rule , and he agrees with me.


I beg to differ


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I just wish Prokofiev Rules football was an Olympic Sport 

we never get to see it on TV here in the States


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Jeff, i'm not really sure of what you fear here. Some may ridicule your opinions but there are probably an equal number who will support them. There are some bullies on this site, as on every site, and as in life in general. I think that the bullies tend to get their comeuppance in time.


I'm a big boy. I am not afraid, I'm "afraid". LOL

I am a member of another site, (that coincidentally uses very similar operating software), and they don't have trouble with bullies or trolls or arguments going _ad hominem_. There is very little, if any, subtle snobbery, everyone is very helpful.

They run a much tighter ship, and to be fair, its a narrower subject and a smaller community than this one, with only 52,000 members and 137,000 threads. The big differences:

- No off topic threads or conversation. None. 
- When a thread gets out of control it is shut down. Done. 
- No debating about the posting rules or the decisions of the moderators. Threads that do are shut down, individuals that do are thrown out. 
- No hierarchy of infractions, when the moderators want you out you're out. Done.

Now I am absolutely not recommending that kind of management for this site. If I knew how to run a site I would be running a site. All I am saying that no, there are some sites that don't tolerate bullies, and where everyone is EXTREMELY helpful in answering questions, offering opinions, giving information. And where everyone comments about how welcomed they feel.



> ...and as in life in general.


We all know this is not life in general. Certainly we can do better than life in general.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

JeffD said:


> ....there are some sites that don't tolerate bullies


this is the trouble that I have. You see, I'm a trained bully. When I was in music school, the administration hired professional bullies to make sure that none of us ever got to spend our own lunch money or made it all the way to the end of a game of dodgeball.

they did it out of love because we, as musicians, need to be able to bully properly so we can police our own ranks

do you really want to see viola players strutting around like they own the freaking place? Of course not, but without the constant badgering of the violin section, that is exactly what we'd be facing.

Bullying is just nature's way of making sure that the best players get work and everybody else is on a therapist's couch where they belong


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Nate Miller said:


> do you really want to see viola players strutting around like they own the freaking place? Of course not, but without the constant badgering of the violin section, that is exactly what we'd be facing.


Heck we would have accordion players and banjo players thinking they were musicians.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

JeffD said:


> Heck we would have accordion players and banjo players thinking they were musicians.


..which would be the end of civilization, really. Do you want to see Beethoven symphonies performed on period banjos???


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> ..which would be the end of civilization, really. Do you want to see Beethoven symphonies performed on period banjos???


Not really.

What is the difference between a banjo and a Harley Davidson?

You can tune a Harley...


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Tulse said:


> Not really.
> 
> What is the difference between a banjo and a Harley Davidson?
> 
> You can tune a Harley...


I've been told I have perfect pitch....every time I chuck a banjo in a dumpster it hits an accordion! :lol:


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

JeffD said:


> I am a member of another site, (that coincidentally uses very similar operating software), and they don't have trouble with bullies or trolls or arguments going _ad hominem_. There is very little, if any, subtle snobbery, everyone is very helpful.
> 
> They run a much tighter ship, and to be fair, its a narrower subject and a smaller community than this one, with only 52,000 members and 137,000 threads. The big differences:
> 
> ...


This is an over-simplification of things, but there are basically two kinds of forums. One type is where high quality information is important, the other type is where conversation is important. In a "high quality" forum, it is important that topics stay on topic and that the quality of postings meets a certain standard. If anyone posts something silly, it'll get deleted and the user might get banned.

I don't think TC cares so much about accurate information as they do about creating a place for discussion. Given that, just about anything goes as long as it's within the brief framework of the rules. It is what it is, it might be difficult to have a platform for discussion and high quality information with the diverse membership on TC.

There aren't very many reason for me to post on the "main forum." While it might have been helpful to post questions about recordings 5-10 years ago, it's so easy these days to just go on YouTube or some other streaming site and hear the differences between recordings with my own ears. YouTube's suggestions algorithm for music I may like are really good. I discover far more good music that way than I do on the forum here. I have no interest in ranking the "genius" of composers. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about. I suppose there are occasionally good and informative musicology posts, but I find those to be pretty rare. At least many of the posts here on the Community Forum are entertaining. Thus, the Community Forum > the main forum for me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Nate Miller said:


> I've been told I have perfect pitch....every time I chuck a banjo in a dumpster it hits an accordion! :lol:


There was a fellow who had a very nice accordion which he usually carried in the back seat of his car. One evening he was driving home after a gig and had a sudden thirst. Seeing a bar, he decided to go in and have a drink. But then he thought, what if somebody steals my accordion? On reflection, he decided that was unlikely. So he parked and went into the bar.

He came out a while later and, sure enough, the rear window of his car was smashed. Looking inside, he found that three more accordions had been thrown in.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> Thus, the Community Forum > the main forum for me.


I get it. I do. You and I are different, or perhaps, in different stages in our classical music journey.

And I adore good_ craic _ as they might say in Ireland, whether serious or silly, supported by either coffee or alcohol.

To me it is like going to a famous museum, only to hang out in the cafeteria.  Which is fine. Considering who the patrons are likely to be in light of the overarching theme of the site, perhaps there is merit in this cafeteria over another one.

I do like the thread about what books we read, and find it is a bit better, or more to my taste anyway, than many forums devoted exclusively to books.

I am sure our paths will cross many times as I pass by the cafeteria on my way to the exhibits.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

This seems like a very nice thread for anyone who may have missed it:

Reflections On Music You Love


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

I was poking around on the Internet Archive this morning and decided to load some early versions of TC. One thing I noticed is that the Community Forum (or Member Chat as it used to be known) was up at the top of the forum until around Christmas 2011. The General Classical Discussion forum was in the middle of the listings. When the Community Forum was up at the top, it had almost as many posts as the General Classical forum and contained some "lighter" classical music discussions. 

I don't know why TC decided to move the Community Forum to the bottom in late 2011, but it was up at the top for around seven years. I wonder if the founders of this forum wanted the Community Forum to be the "main forum" and not the more in-depth forums. Perhaps this was supposed to be a place for classical music fans to discuss whatever they wanted to discuss. It's hard to say if there is a relationship between this and the movement of the forums in the listings, but I find the best classical music posts on TC to be from around 2008-2012.

Another interesting thing I noticed is that TC had an "Easy Listeners" forum for, and this is a direct quote from the forum in 2005, "For people who enjoy listening to classical without any knowledge!" :lol: Perhaps that could have been worded better, but maybe TC needs two "General" forums. One for classical newbies and those who want a softer experience and one for those who want more in-depth (and perhaps more critical) discussion. 

On another note, I wonder why all the TCers from the 200Xs (or even the early 201Xs) are no longer here. It seems strange to me that an entire generation would leave the forum. I've never seen that before on a forum. Most of the other forums I visit were started in the 1990s and they still have some members from those times.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'd go for that 'easy listening' option. British light music and perhaps the odd bit of Val Doonican. This is what my Sundays are like.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Klassik said:


> . One thing I noticed is that the Community Forum (or Member Chat as it used to be known) was up at the top of the forum until around Christmas 2011. The General Classical Discussion forum was in the middle of the listings. .


I was unaware of the history. That is a much better explanation than my theory. Tradition has much weight, even if none of the founders survived the trek across the desert.

In fact, seen in that light, my musings seem kind of naive and perhaps off putting. I am sorry if I bend some noses out of joint. I am new here and just didn't know.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2018)

You can lead a person to classical music but you can't make them talk about it.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2018)

JeffD said:


> I was unaware of the history. That is a much better explanation than my theory. Tradition has much weight, even if none of the founders survived the trek across the desert.
> 
> In fact, seen in that light, my musings seem kind of naive and perhaps off putting. I am sorry if I bend some noses out of joint. I am new here and just didn't know.


I'd guess that format change pre-dates quite a few of us. Although this is primarily a CM forum, that's only one subject and often people want to talk about a myriad of other subjects.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Funny, I can't remember that lay-out at all.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> Funny, I can't remember that lay-out at all.


Here's a snapshot of how TC looked on December 17, 2011. You should remember it since it says you were logged in at the time! 

http://web.archive.org/web/20111217140904/http://www.talkclassical.com:80/



dogen said:


> I'd guess that format change pre-dates quite a few of us. Although this is primarily a CM forum, that's only one subject and often people want to talk about a myriad of other subjects.


There's probably only a handful of members here now who were here in 2011. The numbers are even fewer if you take out moderators, but it seems that even some moderators have left since then. Like I said earlier, it's really bizarre to see that because other forums I visit have several members who have been members for 10-15+ years. Perhaps TC should have just left the Community Forum on the top.

If someone really wants to take a trip back in time, look at the 2005 version of TC. Look how hidden the "main forum" was back then! Perhaps the people who started TC were on to something!

http://web.archive.org/web/20050524005421/http://www.talkclassical.com:80/


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2018)

Klassik said:


> Here's a snapshot of how TC looked on December 17, 2011. You should remember it since it says you were logged in at the time!
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20111217140904/http://www.talkclassical.com:80/
> 
> ...


Both of those links show content blocked because I am, apparently, under 18.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Tulse said:


> Both of those links show content blocked because I am, apparently, under 18.


I'm not sure why it is being blocked. The Internet Archive is a legitimate site. Are you getting your Internet access from work or through public Wi-Fi? If not, I have no idea why any of your Internet would be blocked unless your parents are running some Disney filtering software or something! :lol:

Perhaps TC used to be quite the horny place back in the day. If so, I'm sorry I missed those days!  It's hard to assume anything from one snapshot, but it looks like perhaps there were more women on TC in 2005 than there are now. I can see that the latest posts made in various sub-forums when that 2005 snapshot was taken come from users named val, violingal19, emilys, and oboe_chick (or maybe oboe chick, it's hard to tell). Maybe some of those members aren't women, but it certainly appears that they are/were. I wonder if val is the same person on YouTube named harpsichordVal who posts (probably illegally) some wonderful CD recordings on YouTube of 17th-18th century music. The name oboe_chick just seems intriguing. Perhaps she's the reason why your ISP is blocking the old TC!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Perhaps one is blocked in the archives if you were under 18 back then.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

dogen said:


> You can lead a person to classical music but you can't make them talk about it.


That reminds me, have to go play the game


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