# Anyone interested in co composing something



## Niklaus

Hello, I am a want to be composer and think it would be fun to compose with someone


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Many have tried and failed at collaborative composing....the closest thing I have ever seen which works is arranging and editing someone else's music or composing variations on a theme of theirs. True collaboration in composition is something that simply cannot happen in the same way as it can in the visual arts. However, I don't want to discourage you from giving it a shot, just wanted to give you a heads-up that it can cause quite a bit of debate between the composers.


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## BurningDesire

CoAG, have you never listened to jazz or rock music? Hip-hop or folk music? Many times in these idioms collaborative composition is par for the course.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

BurningDesire said:


> CoAG, have you never listened to jazz or rock music? Hip-hop or folk music? Many times in these idioms collaborative composition is par for the course.


I was assuming he meant music in the western classical tradition.


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## violadude

I wonder how a collaborative classical composition would work?

I'm imagining something like "Hey, you take the melody and I'll take care of the harmony".


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## Crudblud

Maybe a musical tennis sort of thing? A writes some bars, passes it over to B who does the same, back and forth until whatever. I did that with someone once, it was terrible and I wanted to punch them for ruining my music. Admittedly, the music I wrote was crap, but it was *my* crap!


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## PetrB

Niklaus said:


> Hello, I am a want to be composer and think it would be fun to compose with someone


I cannot think of one 'classical' piece where that led to a satisfactory result. I would be interested if anyone knew of one, and then if I found the piece 'successful.'

Even working within a similar style or plying a particular harmonic vein, the composer's 'unique fingerprint' is pretty much expected in classical music.

The most effective collaborations, it seems, come from the arenas of pop and jazz.


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## Matsps

I can't really imagine composing with someone who isn't in the room with you. I've co-wrote some pieces with people before though (mostly dance and rock music) but also some piano stuff. It can definitely work if you're both in the same room, but over the internet, I'm not so sure.


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## PetrB

violadude said:


> I wonder how a collaborative classical composition would work?
> 
> I'm imagining something like "Hey, you take the melody and I'll take care of the harmony".


That falls under arranging, actually


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## Aramis

PetrB said:


> I cannot think of one 'classical' piece where that led to a satisfactory result. I would be interested if anyone knew of one, and then if I found the piece 'successful.'


Salieri & Gluck - Les Danaides

Also, Grand Duo Concertant by Chopin & his French cello friend might not be a masterpiece, but can be considered succesful.


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## SottoVoce

PetrB said:


> I cannot think of one 'classical' piece where that led to a satisfactory result. I would be interested if anyone knew of one, and then if I found the piece 'successful.'
> 
> Even working within a similar style or plying a particular harmonic vein, the composer's 'unique fingerprint' is pretty much expected in classical music.
> 
> The most effective collaborations, it seems, come from the arenas of pop and jazz.


The F-A-E Sonata! I still hear it played from time to time.

Then again, it's not that they worked on a movement together; they just worked on separate movements and compiled them together.

But I was wondering how good of an idea something like what Phillip Roth with his little nephew, which for one person to come up with a story, another to continue it and send it back to the person, and so on and so forth. At most, it would just be a piece of fun.


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## ricardo_jvc6

It might work as it might not... but you can always give it a shot.


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## musicrom

PetrB said:


> I cannot think of one 'classical' piece where that led to a satisfactory result. I would be interested if anyone knew of one, and then if I found the piece 'successful.'
> 
> Even working within a similar style or plying a particular harmonic vein, the composer's 'unique fingerprint' is pretty much expected in classical music.
> 
> The most effective collaborations, it seems, come from the arenas of pop and jazz.


Rimsky-Korsakov, Lyadov, Borodin, and Glazunov wrote a collaborative "String Quartet on the Theme 'B-la-F'". They each wrote a movement. I don't know how good it is, but I've heard of it, so I figured I would chime in with that example.


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## oogabooha

There are definitely satisfactory pieces that have been co-composed. I mean, that's just my opinion, but I urge anyone skeptical to check out the "party pieces" Cage and his buddies composed.


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## oogabooha

PetrB said:


> That falls under arranging, actually


...depends on what you consider more important in the music. I would consider both equal parts of the composition. It's one thing to draw the eyes, nose, and mouth to give the piece a face, but it's moreso about drawing the perfectly-fit body, not simply adapting to one.

Plus, so many different harmonizations, styles, etc. can be possible, blah blah blah, that I would say it's only arranging if the composer of the melody provides a significant implication of harmonization/direction that they want it to go in.


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## PetrB

oogabooha said:


> ...depends on what you consider more important in the music. I would consider both equal parts of the composition. It's one thing to draw the eyes, nose, and mouth to give the piece a face, but it's moreso about drawing the perfectly-fit body, not simply adapting to one.
> 
> Plus, so many different harmonizations, styles, etc. can be possible, blah blah blah, that I would say it's only arranging if the composer of the melody provides a significant implication of harmonization/direction that they want it to go in.


Earth to composer:

Aesthetic quibbles and qualifications, even some completely unnecessary and not part of it philosophical pondering may be all fine and good, but taking a tune and providing the harmony is still basic and very much part of the terrain within the boundaries of the musical land called "arranging."


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## PetrB

musicrom said:


> Rimsky-Korsakov, Lyadov, Borodin, and Glazunov wrote a collaborative "String Quartet on the Theme 'B-la-F'". They each wrote a movement. I don't know how good it is, but I've heard of it, so I figured I would chime in with that example.


"Each wrote a movement." i.e. not one of them had to really collaborate with another as to their basic style or personal impulses.

That is barely what I call collaboration, as in two or more co-composing an entire work


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## oogabooha

PetrB said:


> Earth to composer:
> 
> Aesthetic quibbles and qualifications, even some completely unnecessary and not part of it philosophical pondering may be all fine and good, but taking a tune and providing the harmony is still basic and very much part of the terrain within the boundaries of the musical land called "arranging."


I wasn't referring to taking a finished product and the literal job of arranging. We're talking about collaboration, and there have been songwriting/composing duos who would work in the way of writing melodies and the other person further fleshing out the idea, in many different ways that would directly affect the final product. There is a difference between collaborating in the _writing_ process and collaborating to realize a completed vision. Obviously it isn't possible for two people to be thinking and writing the same piece at the same time, but that's not what a compositional collaboration is about. Also, please cut it with the "earth to composer" speak. I'm not implying that my opinion is worth anything, but it certainly exists.


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## PetrB

oogabooha said:


> We're talking about collaboration, and there have been songwriting/composing duos who would work in the way of writing melodies and the other person further fleshing out the idea.


Right, happens in songwriting all the time, pop, musical theater, etc. and that is in the midst of the creative process. Which is why I think there is a mistake when someone posts in a classical forum and uses the word 'collaborate' re: writing a piece and does not mention either lyrics or songs 



oogabooha said:


> Obviously it isn't possible for two people to be thinking and writing the same piece at the same time, but that's not what a compositional collaboration is about.


That is exactly how the OP reads, and your post only mentioned "melody / harmony" as a two-part separate role collaboration.

RE: 'earth to.' Perhaps I misread your post, so apologize for that.
I thought you had gone off track from the OP and that first post of yours and into some sort of _Son of Godzilla notion of say, Stravinsky and Debussy co-writing a symphony_ or some such... as you say, "obviously..."


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## Rach d minor

If I could compose in any way I would love to, but unfortunately for now, I study the music not write it.


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## BurningDesire

PetrB said:


> Earth to composer:
> 
> Aesthetic quibbles and qualifications, even some completely unnecessary and not part of it philosophical pondering may be all fine and good, but taking a tune and providing the harmony is still basic and very much part of the terrain within the boundaries of the musical land called "arranging."


no its not. Its part of composing. Arranging is taking material thats already basically finished, and "arranging" it. Like taking a couple tunes by a famous composer, taking fragments from them, and creating a crappy arrangement of it. Or transcribing something from one instrument to another. Thats arranging. But creating harmony for a tune, thats composing.


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## PetrB

BurningDesire said:


> no its not. Its part of composing. Arranging is taking material thats already basically finished, and "arranging" it. Like taking a couple tunes by a famous composer, taking fragments from them, and creating a crappy arrangement of it. Or transcribing something from one instrument to another. Thats arranging. But creating harmony for a tune, that's composing.


If you set a traditional folk melody to completely new harmonic context, of course you are 'composing,' but traditionally, those are touted as arrangements, a setting of, etc. Just like variations on a theme by another, transcriptions, fantasias upon a theme of... it is the convention that the primary material which the work 'generated' or is based upon is credited, because that part at least, is not of your original invention.


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