# Is there a contemporary recording of Brahms 1st symphony that can match Furtwängler?



## Musicophile

Hello everybody, first post on this forum (but have been reading for a while).

I've recently started a little blog on classical music and Jazz (if you're interested: Musicophilesblog.com), and one of my first posts was about my all-time favorite symphony: Brahms 1.

When I was going through all my versions (I have about 30), I noticed that Furtwängler (Berlin and NDR Hamburg) is still by far my favorite version, with Klemperer being second. I haven't found any contemporary (i.e. last 10-20 years) version of no.1 which even comes close in terms of gravitas, energy, especially in the first movement. 

Can you help me find any version that you feel can match those 50 year old giants?


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## sdtom

like you I'm stuck on an older version that being the Toscanini. I'll check your site out.
Tom


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## Triplets

Musicophile said:


> Hello everybody, first post on this forum (but have been reading for a while).
> 
> I've recently started a little blog on classical music and Jazz (if you're interested: Musicophilesblog.com), and one of my first posts was about my all-time favorite symphony: Brahms 1.
> 
> When I was going through all my versions (I have about 30), I noticed that Furtwängler (Berlin and NDR Hamburg) is still by far my favorite version, with Klemperer being second. I haven't found any contemporary (i.e. last 10-20 years) version of no.1 which even comes close in terms of gravitas, energy, especially in the first movement.
> 
> Can you help me find any version that you feel can match those 50 year old giants?


Those are my two favorites as well--Furtwangler and Klemperer. 
Have other great Brahms/1 been made in the interim? Of course. I really like Sanderling/Dresden and Szell/Cleveland, both about 10 years fresher than Klemperer. I do think that in the last 30 years or so there has been tendency to slow down and monumentalize this work, so not many recent readings have scored points with me. Andrew Manze spunks it up nicely in HIPP
style, but I think some of the baby goes out with the bathwater. Marek Janowski/Pittsburgh on Pentatone is the modern choice for me. Great playing, sonics, and Janowski is somewhat old school, in a good way.


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## sdtom

like you I'm stuck on an older version that being the Toscanini. I'll check your site out.
Tom


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## StlukesguildOhio

Match? How does a new work of art... in this case a new interpretation of a work of art... go about matching a stellar older one? It seems to me that a key element in all of the classic recordings I own is that they stand out in one way or another. The conductor or performers have brought a unique and powerful vision to bear upon the work. If there are other recordings of equal (or near equal) merit it is not the result of "matching" the elements that made another recording so marvelous ("gravitas" & "energy") but rather it is the result of the conductor/performers bringing their own vision to bear... bringing something new. 

Personally I quite like Furtwängler, Szell, Karajan, Klemperer, Walter, Jochum and István Kertész (which I've only just heard). For newer recordings, John Eliot Gardiner's is the one for me. It brought a muscularity & greater clarity to the density of Brahms that opened up his symphonies for me and led to a greater appreciation of the older recordings.

I'd like to hear the Janowski recording. His performances of Brahms' great rival are more than worth hearing.


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## Musicophile

Thanks all. Very helpful.

I asked the same question on another forum, Janowski came up as well, and I checked it out on my Qobuz streaming subscription. Turns out to be a very good recording (plus Pentatone's amazing sound quality). I couldn't find Gardiner on Qobuz (only 3 and 4 seem to be available), I very much like those two, so need to check no. 1 out. 

However, among the recommendations from the other site (Gramophone forum), I got another alternative which I like even more than the Janowski: Klaus Tennstedt with the LPO on BBC (a 1992 recording only recently released). While I'd heard his name before, he kind of flew under the radar screen for me.


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## Triplets

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Match? How does a new work of art... in this case a new interpretation of a work of art... go about matching a stellar older one? It seems to me that a key element in all of the classic recordings I own is that they stand out in one way or another. The conductor or performers have brought a unique and powerful vision to bear upon the work. If there are other recordings of equal (or near equal) merit it is not the result of "matching" the elements that made another recording so marvelous ("gravitas" & "energy") but rather it is the result of the conductor/performers bringing their own vision to bear... bringing something new.
> 
> Personally I quite like Furtwängler, Szell, Karajan, Klemperer, Walter, Jochum and István Kertész (which I've only just heard). For newer recordings, John Eliot Gardiner's is the one for me. It brought a muscularity & greater clarity to the density of Brahms that opened up his symphonies for me and led to a greater appreciation of the older recordings.
> 
> I'd like to hear the Janowski recording. His performances of Brahms' great rival are more than worth hearing.


 I'm gld that you like Janowski Bruckner...I thought that JEG Beethoven was severely overrated when it came out and that discouraged me from seeking out any non-Baroque recordings by him. I'll give his Brahms a try if it is on Spotify.


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## Triplets

Musicophile said:


> Thanks all. Very helpful.
> 
> I asked the same question on another forum, Janowski came up as well, and I checked it out on my Qobuz streaming subscription. Turns out to be a very good recording (plus Pentatone's amazing sound quality). I couldn't find Gardiner on Qobuz (only 3 and 4 seem to be available), I very much like those two, so need to check no. 1 out.
> 
> However, among the recommendations from the other site (Gramophone forum), I got another alternative which I like even more than the Janowski: Klaus Tennstedt with the LPO on BBC (a 1992 recording only recently released). While I'd heard his name before, he kind of flew under the radar screen for me.


I'm not a Klausophile. He has his very loyal following, but I somehow have avoided the spell. I have the Brahms on lp but consigned it to the also rans...if I recall there was a fair amount of gear shifting in I and IV, drawing a lot of attention to Klaus and imo away from Brahms.
I do have Jochum and the LPO in stereo (there is also a Jochum mono cycle). Curiously Jochum plays it fairly straight....not at all like his Bruckner.


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## Musicophile

Triplets said:


> I'm gld that you like Janowski Bruckner...I thought that JEG Beethoven was severely overrated when it came out and that discouraged me from seeking out any non-Baroque recordings by him. I'll give his Brahms a try if it is on Spotify.


I kind of like Gardiner's Beethoven.. Certainly these days ther is a lot of serious competition, but there are some, 4, 7 for example I really like.

On Brahms he gives an interesting perspective, often much lighter. Not all is good, but worth investigating. My preferred Gardiner of non-Baroque is Schumann by the way, especially 3&4.


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## Musicophile

Musicophile said:


> I kind of like Gardiner's Beethoven.. Certainly these days ther is a lot of serious competition, but there are some, 4, 7 for example I really like.
> 
> On Brahms he gives an interesting perspective, often much lighter. Not all is good, but worth investigating. My preferred Gardiner of non-Baroque is Schumann by the way, especially 3&4.


Jochum on Brahms never really clicked with me. Same on the piano concertos. I much prefer Gilels Leinsdorf to Gilels Jochum for example on no. 2. Jochum kind of exclusively gets airtime with me on Bruckner.


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## Musicophile

Triplets said:


> I'm not a Klausophile. He has his very loyal following, but I somehow have avoided the spell. I have the Brahms on lp but consigned it to the also rans...if I recall there was a fair amount of gear shifting in I and IV, drawing a lot of attention to Klaus and imo away from Brahms.
> I do have Jochum and the LPO in stereo (there is also a Jochum mono cycle). Curiously Jochum plays it fairly straight....not at all like his Bruckner.


On Tennstert, by the way the recording I'm currently referring to is this one, which apparently is a new release of something found in the BBC archives.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Jan13/Brahms_Tennstedt_LPO0068.htm

It is highly subjective interpretation but has the energy I need. Before I give my final verdict I need to give it some more spins but so far I like what I hear.


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## Mahlerian

Triplets said:


> I'm not a Klausophile. He has his very loyal following, but I somehow have avoided the spell. I have the Brahms on lp but consigned it to the also rans...if I recall there was a fair amount of gear shifting in I and IV, drawing a lot of attention to Klaus and imo away from Brahms.


Tennstedt was not an egocentric conductor by any means. His tempi were quite fluid and at times extreme, but they were always chosen with the intention of serving the music, not himself. I'm fond of his LPO Brahms 1, personally.


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## sdtom

Since this thread began I've yet to hear any mention made of the Toscanini recording making me think that there is something wrong with it? Is it the mono recording and the age resulting in less than stellar sound? I was shown early on that with older material you use older equipment thus the mono speaker and amp.


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## Musicophile

sdtom said:


> Since this thread began I've yet to hear any mention made of the Toscanini recording making me think that there is something wrong with it? Is it the mono recording and the age resulting in less than stellar sound? I was shown early on that with older material you use older equipment thus the mono speaker and amp.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Toscanini recording, it's actually very good , I have it. I think people were just because of the title of the thread more focusing on a contemporary recording.


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## Albert7

Chailly's current Brahms cycle of the symphonies is better than that of Furtwangler... (Kleiber is wonderful with Brahms too).


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## Musicophile

Albert7 said:


> Chailly's current Brahms cycle of the symphonies is better than that of Furtwangler... (Kleiber is wonderful with Brahms too).


I very much like Chailly's new Brahms cycle, very organic and clean. Just on no. 1, I think it is a bit TOO clean.

Have never heard Kleiber except for no. 4, need to check it out.


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## Lord Lance

No one - nothing! - can match the power and demonic rage of Herr Furtwängler!


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## StlukesguildOhio

Musicophile said:


> I kind of like Gardiner's Beethoven.. Certainly these days ther is a lot of serious competition, but there are some, 4, 7 for example I really like.
> 
> On Brahms he gives an interesting perspective, often much lighter. Not all is good, but worth investigating. My preferred Gardiner of non-Baroque is Schumann by the way, especially 3&4.


Yes. I quite like Gardiner's Schumann as well. But I also quite love his Brahms Requiem and Beethoven Missa Solemnis and Mass in C. I'd also look into his Berlioz.

By the way... Brahms "great rival" was not Bruckner but rather Wagner to whom I was referring.


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## Musicophile

StlukesguildOhio said:


> By the way... Brahms "great rival" was not Bruckner but rather Wagner to whom I was referring.


Ah, now I see what you're referring to. If I remember correctly from having read several biographies of Brahms, he personally never saw Wagner as real competition, given that Brahms wasn't really into opera, so this so-called rivalry mainly came from the school of followers.

Brahms as far as I understand never met Wagner, and his attitude never went beyond the occasional snippy comment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The other way round it probably was worse, I read the other day that the rumor that Brahms was inspired by the sound of dying cats was supposedly launched by Wagner or somebody close to him.


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## Woodduck

Musicophile said:


> Brahms as far as I understand never met Wagner, and his attitude never went beyond the occasional snippy comment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> The other way round it probably was worse, I read the other day that the rumor that Brahms was inspired by the sound of dying cats was supposedly launched by Wagner or somebody close to him.


Evidence indicates that Brahms and Wagner understood each other's musical accomplishments perfectly well. Brahms was characteristically gruff and laconic and made few public statements about Wagner - some of those few were no doubt snippy - but he owned and studied Wagner scores, once called himself a "Wagnerite" (probably half in jest, but only half) and said he would have attended the premiere of _Parsifal_ in Bayreuth had he not feared that Wagner fans would make a scene. Wagner may have thought Brahms's classicism something of a relic, delivering my favorite back-handed compliment of all time: "One sees what can be done with the old forms by one who knows how to handle them." But I can't imagine him saying anything about dying cats, especially since a critic had dubbed _Tristan und Isolde_ "advanced cat music."

The factionalism that made Brahms and Wagner figureheads of opposing artistic ideals outlived either composer's interest in feeding the flames. At the end of Wagner's life, while Brahms was regretting being unable to attend the Bayreuth festival, Wagner was contemplating the writing of symphonies. So much for "the artwork of the future"!


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## fjf

Musicophile said:


> I very much like Chailly's new Brahms cycle, very organic and clean. Just on no. 1, I think it is a bit TOO clean.
> 
> Have never heard Kleiber except for no. 4, need to check it out.


Chailly's Brahms 1 is energetic and fast. Kind of Furtwanglerian.


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## Junqueira

I like Eschenbach's, although it's a bit idiosyncratic, like most Erato's recordings. It's really good though. My opinion, of course...


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## iljajj

Albert7 said:


> Chailly's current Brahms cycle of the symphonies is better than that of Furtwangler... (Kleiber is wonderful with Brahms too).


I am interested in why you would say that; can you elaborate?

Note: this is not meant as an attack - I am genuinely curious, and I also think that argued statements are prefereable on a forum such as this over shouting 'this' or 'that' is 'better' or 'worse'.


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## realdealblues

I haven't heard anything new that can match Furtwangler or Klemperer. Janowski isn't bad, but Chailly, Gardiner, etc. don't even begin to compare. The last really good Brahms to me would be either Abbado/Berlin or Levine/Vienna which were like late 80's early 90's. For modern stereo sound cycles Klemperer/Philharmonia, Levine/Chicago, Levine/Vienna, Abbado/Berlin, Sanderling/Dresden, Jochum/London, Wand/NDR and Dohnanyi/Cleveland are the top tier for me.


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## Lord Lance

realdealblues said:


> I haven't heard anything new that can match Furtwangler or Klemperer. Janowski isn't bad, but Chailly, Gardiner, etc. don't even begin to compare. The last really good Brahms to me would be either Abbado/Berlin or Levine/Vienna which were like late 80's early 90's. For modern stereo sound cycles Klemperer/Philharmonia, Levine/Chicago, Levine/Vienna, Abbado/Berlin, Sanderling/Dresden, Jochum/London, Wand/NDR and Dohnanyi/Cleveland are the top tier for me.


Not even Rattle's go with Berliner Philharmoniker?


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## Musicophile

Lord Lance said:


> Not even Rattle's go with Berliner Philharmoniker?


I'm obviously not the realdeal, but Rattle's Brahms has kind of let me a bit cold overall. There is nothing really wrong with it, but also nothing that really touches me. Same for Abbado with the BPhil. I'm really looking forward to Petrenkos' first Brahms cycle.


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## Aleksandar

Solti does it just fine for me.


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## realdealblues

Lord Lance said:


> Not even Rattle's go with Berliner Philharmoniker?


No, I'm not a fan of his Brahms cycle. If the ones I mentioned were 10/10, I would give Rattle's cycle a 5 or 6.


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## realdealblues

Aleksandar said:


> Solti does it just fine for me.


I would agree that Solti's Brahms cycle is actually pretty well done. I'd probably give it a 9/10.


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## Musicophile

realdealblues said:


> I would agree that Solti's Brahms cycle is actually pretty well done. I'd probably give it a 9/10.


Solti is good, but just a little bit generic. That said, haven't played it forever, need to check it out again,


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## hapiper

Well I am a Karajan fanboy from day one, and that's my favorite. I also like Bernstein as well.


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## GKC

Try Dohnanyi, Ceveland on Teldec. Movement timings are pretty close to Furtwangler (Dohnanyi even faster in III and IV, which I think helps IV). This performance has plenty of power. Good sound, too.


Hey; I just noticed that I am now a SENIOR member. Does this mean I get discounts at restaurants?


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## hapiper

GKC said:


> Try Dohnanyi, Ceveland on Teldec. Movement timings are pretty close to Furtwangler (Dohnanyi even faster in III and IV, which I think helps IV). This performance has plenty of power. Good sound, too.
> 
> Hey; I just noticed that I am now a SENIOR member. Does this mean I get discounts at restaurants?


No but it does mean you can come by the office and get your special orange traffic crossing vest and whistle.


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## EDaddy

I don't have problem at all with Solti. Have become quite fond of it actually.


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## Musicophile

GKC said:


> Try Dohnanyi, Ceveland on Teldec. Movement timings are pretty close to Furtwangler (Dohnanyi even faster in III and IV, which I think helps IV). This performance has plenty of power. Good sound, too.
> 
> Hey; I just noticed that I am now a SENIOR member. Does this mean I get discounts at restaurants?


need to check that out, thanks. I only have his 3&4.


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## shadowdancer

I don't enjoy this "better than" questions but I do recommend Mravinsky's Brahms. Quite hard to find those recordings but, as always with Mravinsky, they are gentle and precise simultaneously.


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## GKC

hapiper said:


> No but it does mean you can come by the office and get your special orange traffic crossing vest and whistle.


I did that gig in the 6th grade; safety patrol. Got a helmet and badge, and held up traffic so school kids could cross at a busy intersection. ;-) (no orange vest, though)


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## KenOC

GKC said:


> I did that gig in the 6th grade; safety patrol. Got a helmet and badge, and held up traffic so school kids could cross at a busy intersection. ;-) (no orange vest, though)


I did my crossing guard stints as a kid. Now it's adults (apparently retired). The lawyers evidently ended the older practice.


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## hapiper

I just ordered the box set of all 4 symphonies by Solti, I also have all 4 (thought not in a box set format) by Bruno Walter saved on my wish list to buy next month. The box set I currently have is the one by James Levine on RCA which is nice as it includes the piano concerto #1 and one of my favorite works by any composer, Brahms German Requiem. I absolutely love that piece of music.


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## realdealblues

hapiper said:


> I just ordered the box set of all 4 symphonies by Solti, I also have all 4 (thought not in a box set format) by Bruno Walter saved on my wish list to buy next month. The box set I currently have is the one by James Levine on RCA which is nice as it includes the piano concerto #1 and one of my favorite works by any composer, Brahms German Requiem. I absolutely love that piece of music.


I sound like a broken record at times but that Levine set is just so top notch and a steal these days. If I could only own two sets it would be that one and Klemperer. Hope you enjoy the Solti, it's very good and some of his best work.


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## Musicophile

realdealblues said:


> I sound like a broken record at times but that Levine set is just so top notch and a steal these days. If I could only own two sets it would be that one and Klemperer. Hope you enjoy the Solti, it's very good and some of his best work.


Just checking it out; but on Symphony no. 1 the first movement is just too rushed for me, it sounds like the orchestra is running away from something.


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## kanishknishar

i fail to comprehend the fuss over furtwangler... yes he did some good recordings and he was talented but he gets the attention of like a god...... 

in the past ten years the only worthwhile recording has been of jurowski and gergiev - excellent efforts by old n young....


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## Brahmsian Colors

Musicophile said:


> Jochum on Brahms never really clicked with me. Same on the piano concertos. I much prefer Gilels Leinsdorf to Gilels Jochum for example on no. 2. Jochum kind of exclusively gets airtime with me on Bruckner.


You mention Gilels/Leinsdorf in the Brahms PC #2. I've neither seen nor heard of a recording that partnered those two. I am aware of Richter/Leinsdorf, made for RCA in 1960, and Gilels/Reiner, also produced on the same label in 1958.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Herrenvolk said:


> i fail to comprehend the fuss over furtwangler... yes he did some good recordings and he was talented but he gets the attention of like a god......


Ditto. I have made repeated attempts over many years to appreciate numerous interpretations by Futwangler, but without success. I more than likely will try again. For one thing, I find it particularly difficult to accept what I hear at times as excessively slowed individual passages. Nor, more broadly speaking, do I find myself much attracted to Furtwangler's aesthetic.


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## Brahmsian Colors

In response to the initial question posed by the author of this thread, for me, Klemperer/Philharmonia does not match Furtwangler in the Brahms First. He surpasses him.


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## starthrower

Lenny B. on DG. And I like Sawallisch on Decca too. And Abbado's 1973 recording.


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