# Does it matter what they look like?



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I heard the other day a recorded interview by Marilyn Horne in which she bemoaned the advent of HD and the rise of broadcasts. She said that it put more pressure on singers as now it matters what they look like as well as sound like. She also said that some singers are chosen for their looks rather than their voice. We all know that Leanora or an elderly Manrico can make a performance in HD seem ridiculous. But does it matter what they look like if they sound good? And which is more important?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I heard the other day a recorded interview by Marilyn Horne in which she bemoaned the advent of HD and the rise of broadcasts. She said that it put more pressure on singers as now it matters what they look like as well as sound like. She also said that some singers are chosen for their looks rather than their voice. We all know that Leanora or an elderly Manrico can make a performance in HD seem ridiculous. But does it matter what they look like if they sound good? And which is more important?


I sympathize with her sentiment. We have few enough great voices these days that we can hardly afford to make looks a criterion for operatic employment. Our culture puts a lot of pressure on women in particular; no news there. That's not to say that any singer shouldn't try to look good on stage. Most, I'm sure, do.

On the other side of the question, I do notice some really obese young singers, and it isn't a pleasure to think about what this does to either their ability to convey a convincing character or to their personal health. Maybe the threat of being viewed in close-up - or the threat of not being allowed to sing in front of the camera - is what some of them need to get into better shape.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I heard the other day a recorded interview by Marilyn Horne in which she bemoaned the advent of HD and the rise of broadcasts. She said that it put more pressure on singers as now it matters what they look like as well as sound like. She also said that some singers are chosen for their looks rather than their voice. We all know that Leanora or an elderly Manrico can make a performance in HD seem ridiculous. But does it matter what they look like if they sound good? And which is more important?


Unfortunately singers today are often chosen for their looks rather than their voice or acting ability. I'm sure it's always been like this but it's more common now and it sells stuff.

If your Mimì looked like this not many people would want to see La bohème.










We've discussed this before, (Thread started before your time DavidA), but it's an interesting topic and I'm certainly going to add my 2 cents.

A singer cannot change their race, colour or bone structure but that leaves a lot of areas where they can improve their appearance if they want to. Artists who are chosen for the ROH Young Artists Programme are provided with a personal trainer which says a lot about how important image is these days.

I've seen singers who are grossly overweight and to be honest their size is distracting.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

I tend to want the singers to look as well as sound the part, but within reason. It they are playing Gilda, for example, it is unreasonable to expect the singer to actually look like a fifteen year old, but it would make suspension of disbelief a lot harder if the singer is too old and overweight. Having said that, I am a lot more tolerant towards looks than I am towards vocal aptitude.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> On the other side of the question, I do notice some really obese young singers, and it isn't a pleasure to think about what this does to either their ability to convey a convincing character or to their personal health. Maybe the threat of being viewed in close-up - or the threat of not being allowed to sing in front of the camera - is what some of them need to get into better shape.


A young tenor I follow on Twitter got into all sorts of bother when he suggested a young female singer do something about her weight for health reasons. He was heavily criticised and I came to his defence as did others who were not singers but it's a very sensitive issue.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Interesting article about Deborah Voigt and her addictions.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Some thoughts, but no conclusions.

Despite what Horne said, and, as Woodduck has already pointed out, there are still quite a few young singers making a name for themselves who are not just overweight, but obese. When Jamie Barton won Cardiff Singer of the World. not one judge or commentator mentioned it though; and it is relevant.

Of course the voice must come first, but, personally, i find it hard to believe in a consumptive Violetta, for instance, if she is patently carrying a few too many pounds.

The first time opera really worked for me was a Glyndebourne Touring Company production of *La Boheme*. it was a traditional production and all the singers were believably young, with a 24 year old Linda Esther Gray (who later became Goodall's magnificent Isolde) in the role of Mimi. My favourite DVD of the opera is the Baz Luhrmann Australian Opera production, with, again, a group of young singers. They are not the best voices in the world, but none of them is inadequate and all of them are great stage performers and actors. The performance draws you in. By contrast I can't watch the 1988 San Francisco production, with a vastly overweight Pavarotti and an aging Freni (who, by contrast, was a perfect Mimi 20 years earlier in the Karajan film). I don't care how good the voices are, I just don't believe them.

I find that many of the singers I enjoy listening to, I would find it difficult to watch. I love Caballe on disc, but I'd find it hard to accept her as Salome in the theatre. I've seen some youtube clips and I just don't think I could suspend disbelief that much. For some reason, though, I love the Orange DVD of *Norma*, and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it has something to do with the epic look of the whole production.

I also find that, whereas I would actively seek out DVDs with Teresa Stratas, she is not usually someone whose records I would buy (apart from her two excellent Kurt Weill discs). One of the most believable and natural actresses you will ever see on the opera stage, her voice was not that great. Certainly no Caballe. But I know whose Salome I would rather see.

On the other hand I do take the point, that, setting weight aside, DVDs and close-ups can be unkind to even singers who, from a distance (ie in the opera house) look believably like their roles. Opera was never meant to be seen in close up.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

One could also point out that film and TV acting is, to some extent, killing live theatre. I've been to quite a few productions where, unless you are sitting in the first few rows of the theatre, you feel as if you are eavesdropping on some private event, so small and contained are the voices and acting.

Years ago, directors would wander round the theatre and up into what we called the gods during dress rehearsals, calling out to the actors "Can't hear you" if they weren't loud enough. Are we entering a stage where even straight plays need to be miked, just as musicals are?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Not, to me........


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sad as it might seem to some, the fact remains that opera is theater and drama as well as singing and it has grown up. Exceptional voices and singers with avoirdupois can always be enjoyed via CD's.

The truth is that the world, like everything else since most of us were born, has changed to a more sophisticated one. Along with those changes came new revolutionary things like, to name only two, sexual openness and a final coming-out-of-the-closet and new miracles in the world of technology. 

In the music world we have graduated from rock n' roll and now hear new words and sounds like rap, regie, hip-hop, punk and on and on. 
In opera suddenly looks arrived to make the stories appear more real for audiences that wanted to be transported to the fantasy world not only by the singing but by looks, and, yes, even by technical advances as well that are feasts for the eyes. 

Instead of bemoaning what we can no longer have, (and those to come will accept it much more easily because they won't have lived it like we have -- "who is Sonny Tufts or Franchot Tone" they say today), let us embrace the fact that we still are privileged to hear and look at many fine singers today who fit the new standard like Fleming, Netrebko, Hvorostovsky, Kaufmann ... I could go on and on ... all with ravishingly beautiful voices and facial appeal as well.
What is so terrible about that? It's changes. The world changes, and we need to get on the bandwagon and join in the fun instead of constantly looking back at "what we had" and pouting. It's destructive and "old people type" thinking.
Smile and embrace it. (You'll live longer)

(Just my 2 cents)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Sad as it might seem to some, the fact remains that opera is theater and drama as well as singing and it has grown up. Exceptional voices and singers with avoirdupois can always be enjoyed via CD's.
> 
> The truth is that the world, like everything else since most of us were born, has changed to a more sophisticated one. Along with those changes came new revolutionary things like, to name only two, sexual openness and a final coming-out-of-the-closet and new miracles in the world of technology.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'm sure many of us "old people" welcome the advice


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Thank you. I'm sure many of us "old people" welcome the advice


Sorry if you took that remark personally.
Funniest part is, I'm probably way older than you are!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Sorry if you took that remark personally.
> Funniest part is, I'm probably way older than you are!


I was being ironic.

Mind you, I'm a lot older than I look (or act). My partner is almost 30 years younger than I am, and I do occasionally still go clubbing. I also love going to my 26 year older niece's rock gigs too. She's a rock singer with a keen appreciation of, and admiration for, the great musicians of the past. It informs all that she does now. Maybe that's why we get one.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> Some thoughts, but no conclusions.
> 
> Despite what Horne said, and, as Woodduck has already pointed out, there are still quite a few young singers making a name for themselves who are not just overweight, but obese. When Jamie Barton won Cardiff Singer of the World. not one judge or commentator mentioned it though; and it is relevant.


This was the singer to whom my Twitter tenor friend was referring.



GregMitchell said:


> The first time opera really worked for me was a Glyndebourne Touring Company production of *La Boheme*. it was a traditional production and all the singers were believably young ...


I understand Glyndebourne have a policy of promoting young singers to perform with GOT. I saw their David McVicar's La bohème. It was updated but not a regie horror show and I loved it. Contemporary review here.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Relative opera newbie but I'm in a headfirst dive right now. Figaro was the first opera I could listen to without watching, and in some bizarre cases, watching it diminished its luster. Mind you, I say this after watching around 10-12 live versions. In my sometimes humble opinion, looks matter to the extent they should be close. It can't be easy to find a suitable Freia, who's beauty is supposed to be beyond reproach. That's not something you just find everyday, walking down the street with a soprano's voice. Luckily, there are young artists like Regula Mühlemann with legitimate looks AND talent. Let's face it. If looks were the only factor, Bryn Terfel would be lucky to find work with Shrek on Ice, assuming he can skate. I've found his unique look quite suitable for certain roles and quite uncomfortably shoehorned into others. The shame comes when looks alone propel a mediocre talent to stardom and opera on the whole suffers in quality. *Summary. Music first. Looks important but not everything. Horseshoes, hand grenades, and opera: just get close.*


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

scratchgolf said:


> The shame comes when looks alone propel a mediocre talent to stardom and opera on the whole suffers in quality...


This happens more often now and is my biggest complaint!!!!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

"The shame comes when looks alone propel a mediocre talent to stardom and opera on the whole suffers in quality".

I agree with your above post but am curious if there is anyone out there who can make a small list of names of those who are eye candy but mediocre in the voice department yet hired by the major venues.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> "The shame comes when looks alone propel a mediocre talent to stardom and opera on the whole suffers in quality".
> 
> I agree with your above post but am curious if there is anyone out there who can make a small list of names of those who are eye candy but mediocre in the voice department yet hired by the major venues.


I'm sure somebody _could_ make such a list, but...does anyone really want to try, and risk shutting down this thread.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Bellinilover said:


> I'm sure somebody _could_ make such a list, but...does anyone really want to try, and *risk shutting down this thread*.


:lol:

My thoughts _exactly_! And yes I have a list but my lips are sealed.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

sospiro said:


> :lol:
> 
> My thoughts _exactly_! And yes I have a list but my lips are sealed.


Well don't tell us all of them. Maybe just take the top 5 and we'll play Opera Family Feud.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I said "major venues." I can't think of one well-known singer off hand who isn't worthy of a spot on the stage of the Metropolitan Opera -- but then again perhaps I am just being incredibly naïve.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

scratchgolf said:


> Well don't tell us all of them. Maybe just take the top 5 and we'll play Opera Family Feud.












Nope, not even in exchange for a hot date with my favourite singer!!


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Nope, not even in exchange for a hot date with my favourite singer!!


Well if my tastes are as high as my opinion of them is, I'll soon figure some of them out for myself, and maybe a few new one's too


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> I said "major venues." I can't think of one well-known singer off hand who isn't worthy of a spot on the stage of the Metropolitan Opera -- but then again perhaps I am just being incredibly naïve.


I've heard several this season. Consult my Saturday morning reviews if you're curious. Of course I've never said that so-and-so wasn't worthy to be on the stage. I've just said they need to sing better.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Back to the main question...

As with most things in life, it's a question of balance, I feel. I never want looks or even acting ability to take precedence over singing ability, nor do I ever want looks or acting to be ignored. What I do want, ideally, is a fine singer who is made up to look as appropriate as he or she can for a particular role (and who is at least well-coached, acting-wise). As for looks in general (as in, "Is this singer beautiful/handsome?"), singing isn't modeling, so I don't normally go around comparing looks. Yet I can't deny that, with my favorite singers, their looks _are_ something of a factor in my liking them -- just not a huge factor.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

My father used to tell a story: during his time in Italy during WW2 he went to the opera house to see La Boheme. He said the poor consumptive little Mimi was an enormous woman - when Rudolfo sang, "Your tiny hand is frozen" she put down a hand as big as a dinner plate! Such is the suspension of disbelief required in opera, something magnified many times by HD.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> My father used to tell a story: during his time in Italy during WW2 he went to the opera house to see La Boheme. He said the poor consumptive little Mimi was an enormous woman - when Rudolfo sang, "Your tiny hand is frozen" she put down a hand as big as a dinner plate! *Such is the suspension of disbelief required in opera, something magnified many times by HD.*




I think the bolded sentence is exactly the issue! Live theatre of any kind requires a certain amount of imagination on the part of the audience member. As theatre is a visual medium you might not expect this to be the case, but nevertheless it's true. But when they treat live opera more like a movie by showing it in a cinema, then I think audience members can be tricked into thinking that it _is_ just like a movie, which needs less of a suspension of disbelief than theatre does (because of its greater realism). Yet even in a cinema, opera is NOT a movie; it's still live theatre.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

DavidA said:


> My father used to tell a story: during his time in Italy during WW2 he went to the opera house to see La Boheme. He said the poor consumptive little Mimi was an enormous woman - when Rudolfo sang, "Your tiny hand is frozen" she put down a hand as big as a dinner plate! Such is the suspension of disbelief required in opera, something magnified many times by HD.


Well, it's dark in Parisian garrets in winter- and perhaps Rodolfo is being gallant!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> Sad as it might seem to some, the fact remains that opera is theater and drama as well as singing and it has grown up. Exceptional voices and singers with avoirdupois can always be enjoyed via CD's.
> 
> The truth is that the world, like everything else since most of us were born, has changed to a more sophisticated one. Along with those changes came new revolutionary things like, to name only two, sexual openness and a final coming-out-of-the-closet and new miracles in the world of technology.
> 
> ...


As a pensioner I welcome the advice. To constantly look back and imagine it was all a golden age is misleading. Certainly the acting we see in opera these days is of a far higher standard (generally speaking with exceptions) than it used to be. And when I'm actually watching an opera I cannot take people who look nothing like the part they are supposed to be playing. Mind you, that's all part of what acting is all about - convincing people you are something you are not.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Interesting article about Deborah Voigt and her addictions.


This makes very sad reading. It reminds me of the story of the film star Jane Fonda who also had multiple eating disorders and image problems due to the fact that her father was verbally abusive to her and never praised her. Just think - Jane Fonda (with looks like hers) had image problems!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> This makes very sad reading. It reminds me of the story of the film star Jane Fonda who also had multiple eating disorders and image problems due to the fact that her father was verbally abusive to her and never praised her. Just think - Jane Fonda (with looks like hers) had image problems!


Very sad about Voigt. Sad too about Jane Fonda but her father was from the generation that were often distant and non-demonstrative. I didn't know he'd been verbally abusive though.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Very sad about Voigt. Sad too about Jane Fonda but her father was from the generation that were often distant and non-demonstrative. I didn't know he'd been verbally abusive though.


I _knew_ there was a reason I don't like Henry Fonda. (No, that's not quite true; I love a couple of his movies and he was a fine actor; I've just never been able to warm to his screen presence.)


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Sad as it might seem to some, the fact remains that opera is theater and drama as well as singing and it has grown up. Exceptional voices and singers with avoirdupois can always be enjoyed via CD's.
> 
> The truth is that the world, like everything else since most of us were born, has changed to a more sophisticated one. Along with those changes came new revolutionary things like, to name only two, sexual openness and a final coming-out-of-the-closet and new miracles in the world of technology.
> 
> ...


Why? What if it _isn't _fun? FYI, most of the greatest operatic performances I've ever heard were committed to disc when Franchot Tone was in diapers, give or take a decade. (Not sure who Sonny Tufts was, I'll have to look him up.)



nina foresti said:


> *It's destructive and "old people type" thinking.*


You're welcome!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

For me, looks are never a minus but it can be a plus. Fat, old, not perfectly symmetric of face, or whatever is fine by me and all I really care about is what hits my ears. But if an otherwise acceptable singer also can believably stage act and portray the role they are playing, it's a nice bonus.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think the bolded sentence is exactly the issue! Live theatre of any kind requires a certain amount of imagination on the part of the audience member. As theatre is a visual medium you might not expect this to be the case, but nevertheless it's true. But when they treat live opera more like a movie by showing it in a cinema, then I think audience members can be tricked into thinking that it _is_ just like a movie, which needs less of a suspension of disbelief than theatre does (because of its greater realism). Yet even in a cinema, opera is NOT a movie; it's still live theatre.


I don't think they are treating it like a movie as a movie is made of a lot of takes put together - an entirely different process. I saw Richard II from the Royal Shakespeare company in the theatre the night it was being broadcast live. As there was an encore performance at the cinema a few weeks later I went to see that too - The same performance as I'd seen in the theatre. It was an entirely different experience even though I enjoyed both of them a lot.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Nina Foresti:* Your post makes newness sound synonymous with progress, which I don't think is always the case; this is, in fact, what G.K. Chesterton (admittedly an old, dead man) called "chronological snobbery." Now, I'm not elderly (though I am approaching middle age), and there are few things I hate more than people who go on and on about "the good old days" while ignoring the good things of today. In other words, there are few things sadder, IMO, than those who live in the past. That said, I feel we have to watch out for this "newness always equals progress" idea, as IMO it's dangerous and ridiculous. At its extreme, it's akin to saying that we should forget about Bach, or see him as a lesser composer, because Beethoven came along later.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Il Maestro said:


> I tend to want the singers to look as well as sound the part, but within reason. It they are playing Gilda, for example, it is unreasonable to expect the singer to actually look like a fifteen year old, but it would make suspension of disbelief a lot harder if the singer is too old and overweight. Having said that, I am a lot more tolerant towards looks than I am towards vocal aptitude.


that's reasonable. personally, my standards for looks loosen depending on the difficulty and fach of the role. like, you can roll a quarter down the streets of New York and have a 25% chance that a soprano with the right set of cords for these roles will pick it up, but if you can sing an a thrilling Norma.....I don't care if you look like a friggin sumo wrestler. sing it gurl! being beautiful without the voice to back it up is like the opera equivalent to being on food stamps and driving a Benz.

PS: that said, I really don't care all that much anyway. I am there to _listen_ to an opera, and mostly enjoy live performances because of differing acoustics, having a night out with my friends and....yes, because I love feeling like a classist snob


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Nina Foresti:* Your post makes newness sound synonymous with progress, which I don't think is always the case; this is, in fact, what G.K. Chesterton (admittedly an old, dead man) called "chronological snobbery." Now, I'm not elderly (though I am approaching middle age), and there are few things I hate more than people who go on and on about "the good old days" while ignoring the good things of today. In other words, there are few things sadder, IMO, than those who live in the past. That said, I feel we have to watch out for this "newness always equals progress" idea, as IMO it's dangerous and ridiculous. At its extreme, it's akin to saying that we should forget about Bach, or see him as a lesser composer, because Beethoven came along later.


Bellinilover: Please direct me to my post where I said, "newness always equals progress" idea.

And then you continued "as IMO it's dangerous and ridiculous. At its extreme, it's akin to saying that we should forget about Bach, or see him as a lesser composer, because Beethoven came along later."

Well I certainly couldn't agree with you more. And if you took my post to indicate that anything of the past is just that, "in the past and forget about it", you have misinterpreted my words enormously.
But then so did many others. And I think I understand why. All I was trying to say (and obviously not very well) was that there is no way to get the Golden Age back again, any more than those persons 20 years from now will get our times back for them, so why not just appreciate greatly what we have today and enjoy the sounds of opera, our magnificent obsession, instead of moaning about what we can no longer have.

But that remark of yours "newness always equals progress" never came from my lips and surely does not sound at all like the message I was trying to get across.

Bottom line: I will accept the fault for my post that obviously rankled too many posters. I missed expressing properly what I was trying to get across. I was too busy trying to be a cheerleader and a positive influence for what we have going for us today, and it was interpreted as I prefer today's stuff to the days of yore (which certainly couldn't be farther from the truth). 
So, my apologies to those I might have insulted (albeit purely innocently)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Bellinilover: Please direct me to my post where I said, "newness always equals progress" idea.
> 
> And then you continued "as IMO it's dangerous and ridiculous. At its extreme, it's akin to saying that we should forget about Bach, or see him as a lesser composer, because Beethoven came along later."
> 
> ...


When you wrote, "Our world has changed to a more sophisticated one," I took "sophisticated" to mean "advanced"; and since your tone was that this was a positive thing, I took your overall meaning to be that advancement = "better" or "progress." In addition, you wrote about "graduating" from rock n'roll to rap, etc., and that word "graduating" also implies "making progress" (as one does in school) rather than simply changing styles.

I apologize for taking your post as more extreme than it actually was. On the other hand, my meaning with the Bach/Beethoven analogy was not quite "in the past and forget about it," but rather "Bach's music was well and good for its time, and can still be enjoyed today; still, Beethoven's improved upon it and took the history of music in a better direction." In other words, a person who thought this would be giving a nod to the past while viewing what came after it not as simply a different style informed by different sensibilities, but as an _ improvement_ -- as progress. This is the sort of idea (which I guess was not being expressed by you) that I don't like.

But I don't know that anyone in this thread was being overly nostalgic for past singing or performance styles; it seems to me that the thread so far has been more about the relative importance of different operatic values -- singing, visuals. I'd venture to say that even those here who, like Figleaf, prefer much older styles of singing would prefer it if the singers onstage looked right for their parts and acted more as though they were in a play than as though they were singing a concert in costume.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I actually want to take a few great post-1970 singers who are lesser known, and "age" their recordings to sound like wax cylinders, and slap a random old photograph on there, and make up some names ("the great basso, Luigi Profundo, born 1882"), and post them on Youtube, just for ***** and giggles. I bet some opera fans would be falling all over themselves at these great discoveries.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> that's reasonable. personally, my standards for looks loosen depending on the difficulty and fach of the role. like, you can roll a quarter down the streets of New York and have a 25% chance that a soprano with the right set of cords for these roles will pick it up, but if you can sing an a thrilling Norma.....I don't care if you look like a friggin sumo wrestler. sing it gurl! being beautiful without the voice to back it up is like the opera equivalent to being on food stamps and driving a Benz.
> 
> PS: that said, I really don't care all that much anyway. I am there to _listen_ to an opera, and mostly enjoy live performances because of differing acoustics, having a night out with my friends and....yes, because I love feeling like a classist snob


You are not only funny, but sometimes brilliant to :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> For me, looks are never a minus but it can be a plus. Fat, old, not perfectly symmetric of face, or whatever is fine by me and *all I really care about is what hits my ears. *But if an otherwise acceptable singer also can believably stage act and portray the role they are playing, it's a nice bonus.


So you don't look upon viewing opera as drama then?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> that's reasonable. personally, my standards for looks loosen depending on the difficulty and fach of the role. like, you can roll a quarter down the streets of New York and have a 25% chance that a soprano with the right set of cords for these roles will pick it up, but if you can sing an a thrilling Norma.....I don't care if you look like a friggin sumo wrestler. sing it gurl! being beautiful without the voice to back it up is like the opera equivalent to being on food stamps and driving a Benz.
> 
> PS: that said, I really don't care all that much anyway. I am there to _listen_ to an opera, and mostly enjoy live performances because of differing acoustics, having a night out with my friends and....yes, because I love feeling like a classist snob


If I am here just to listen to the opera then the radio or cd player will do. When I see a performance I actually want it to at least approximate to what I have in my head. i.e. the prima donna who everyone is falling in love with does not look like a friggin' sumo wrestler. She rather approximates to an attractive woman. The dashing young hero does not have middle aged face and a 52 inch waist. When Florestan emerges from the dungeon he does not look as if he has been entertained by a cordon bleu cook for the last couple of years! Or when Salome dances the seven veils it does not look like the rotation of a circus big top!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Or when Salome dances the seven veils it does not look like the rotation of a circus big top!


Or she disappears "to change" behind a curtain, re-emerging seconds later several pounds lighter with the figure and face of a young dancer, only to change back into her former self for the final scene.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I might also add that I remember seeing a production of Massenet's *Cherubin*, in which the diminutive figure of Maria Bayo as the ballerina L'Ensolleilad was replaced by a somewhat larger dancer for the ballet sequences, which created a completely different dissociation.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

DavidA said:


> So you don't look upon viewing opera as drama then?


Drama isn't just visual though. It isn't even mostly visual, if you happen to be watching a minimalist production, or seated behind a pillar, or indeed both, as happened to me at a Madama Butterfly at Covent Garden a few years ago! Acting with the voice is surely even more important for a singer than acting with the body, though I suspect only a gifted minority has ever been able to do both to a very high standard... and that's before we insist that they have to look like a matinee idol as well!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I actually want to take a few great post-1970 singers who are lesser known, and "age" their recordings to sound like wax cylinders, and slap a random old photograph on there, and make up some names ("the great basso, Luigi Profundo, born 1882"), and post them on Youtube, just for ***** and giggles. I bet some opera fans would be falling all over themselves at these great discoveries.


Why not, that sounds like fun! I notice that 'Signor Profundo' is an Italian of the verismo generation, and thus a clear ancestor of the Italian verismo derived international singing style of today, so you would have an easier time fooling people with him than with 'Louis Profond, 1853-1922, Plançon's great rival, etc...'


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I was on Amazon yesterday, browsing Bluray Ring Cycles. I was really interested in the Levine and even sampled it. The one thing I just couldn't get past was Terfel as Wotan, in the way I can't get past his Don Giovanni. I can tolerate his Figaro if I don't look at him. I'm not being mean, and hope it doesn't come off as such. As a tolerant, straight man, Terfel's looks along with females too matter to me more for credibility than an attractive face to look at. A willful suspension of disbelief does have its limits. And since my opera experience is young, he's really been the first big name I've avoided on purpose. I just don't think his style is my style. Not trying to pick at any Terfel fans. Any ensuing arguments, you already win :tiphat:

Edit: I didn't do that hyperlink ^ so I'm assuming it's an automatic thing and staff is cool with it.

Edit 2: And now it disappeared and I look silly. Maybe I should just delete edit 1? Nah, I'll save that for Edit 3.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Terfel, eh??? He doesn't attract me as a singer, and I never got why he was so ubiquitous a few years ago, but I wasn't aware that he was considered to be in the 'too ugly to be credible as a hero' category. To me he's more like 'average looking guy who might well be someone else's type'. Of course, we can't all be as buff as scratchgolf! :kiss: :tiphat:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

scratchgolf said:


> I was on Amazon yesterday, browsing Bluray Ring Cycles. I was really interested in the Levine and even sampled it. The one thing I just couldn't get past was Terfel as Wotan, in the way I can't get past his Don Giovanni. I can tolerate his Figaro if I don't look at him. I'm not being mean, and hope it doesn't come off as such. As a tolerant, straight man, Terfel's looks along with females too matter to me more for credibility than an attractive face to look at. A willful suspension of disbelief does have its limits. And since my opera experience is young, he's really been the first big name I've avoided on purpose. I just don't think his style is my style. Not trying to pick at any Terfel fans. Any ensuing arguments, you already win :tiphat:


At the risk of upsetting Terfel fans, I can never understand why he's held in such high esteem by ROH and other houses. I vividly remember the first time I heard him live and that was in Tosca with the so-called dream team at ROH.










To be honest, his looks (lack of them) don't bother me but I was terribly disappointed with his voice. I thought he sounded flat and he shouted.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

It's his expressions more than his looks or weight, which are both minor issues. Don Giovanni/Juan is supposed to be the most handsome man on earth. If you're not handsome, at least act noble. Don't make faces like a court jester or a teacher reading a book to 5 year olds. That's what I can't tolerate and he's the only one I can put a name to. The other's I've seen with similar expressivness haven't left impressions yet. But me and opera are like William Henry Harrison and the Presidency. I'm in it for the long haul baby. I'm sure my list will be growing fast. Isn't your first opera belt only awarded after fighting a Maria Callas fan? Like a "Blood In" scenario? If so, I'm gonna need a trainer.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I never realised Terfel excited such strong feelings, He must be better than I thought. :lol:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

scratchgolf said:


> It's his expressions more than his looks or weight, which are both minor issues. Don Giovanni/Juan is supposed to be the most handsome man on earth. If you're not handsome, at least act noble. Don't make faces like a court jester or a teacher reading a book to 5 year olds. That's what I can't tolerate and he's the only one I can put a name to. The other's I've seen with similar expressivness haven't left impressions yet. But me and opera are like William Henry Harrison and the Presidency. I'm in it for the long haul baby. I'm sure my list will be growing fast. Isn't your first opera belt only awarded after fighting a Maria Callas fan? Like a "Blood In" scenario? If so, I'm gonna need a trainer.


I agree with you about Don Giovanni, though I've only experienced the opera in sound-only recordings. (I just watched a video of Terfel, eyes bulging and fists shaking, barking out 'Fin ch'han dal vino'... I don't know what that was about.) From what I remember, my first LP Don was also coarse and unseductive, and would barely have been adequate as Leporello. (I can say this without fear of offending the fans of the singer in question, since I've completely forgotten his name.) As so often after a disappointing first encounter I avoided the opera for many years, but in the last week I've acquired though not heard the Don Giovannis of Karl Schmitt-Walter and Roger Soyer respectively. The latter is especially promising, being a suave singer with a beautiful voice who sounded as good as he looked. I wonder if being very handsome somehow gives a singer the confidence to act handsome, as the versions of the Don's serenade and/or drinking song which I listen to most often are the old ones by Maurel, Renaud, and Battistini, all very handsome, vain ladies' men!

Scratch, your opera belt will have to wait until we're no longer discussing singers who look the part and can act. Maybe when the subject of wobbles comes up... :devil:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Actually, here's a good counter example to challenge my theory that very handsome baritones play the Don with greater conviction than regular looking guys. It is the great, and very beautiful, Gerard Souzay, looking terribly nervous in a TV broadcast, with the fixed smile of someone who really doesn't want to be in the class photo but has no choice. It's a shame he was so nervous on stage, because he really did have the looks, voice and charisma to be a great Don Giovanni. Opera's loss was Lieder's gain.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> I agree with you about Don Giovanni, though I've only experienced the opera in sound-only recordings. (I just watched a video of Terfel, eyes bulging and fists shaking, barking out 'Fin ch'han dal vino'... I don't know what that was about.) From what I remember, my first LP Don was also coarse and unseductive, and would barely have been adequate as Leporello. (I can say this without fear of offending the fans of the singer in question, since I've completely forgotten his name.)


Peter Mattei is a much better Don. Terfel is an adequate Leporello on here.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> I was on Amazon yesterday, browsing Bluray Ring Cycles. I was really interested in the Levine and even sampled it. The one thing I just couldn't get past was Terfel as Wotan, in the way I can't get past his Don Giovanni. I can tolerate his Figaro if I don't look at him. I'm not being mean, and hope it doesn't come off as such. As a tolerant, straight man, Terfel's looks along with females too matter to me more for credibility than an attractive face to look at. A willful suspension of disbelief does have its limits. And since my opera experience is young, he's really been the first big name I've avoided on purpose. I just don't think his style is my style. Not trying to pick at any Terfel fans. Any ensuing arguments, you already win :tiphat:
> 
> Edit: I didn't do that hyperlink ^ so I'm assuming it's an automatic thing and staff is cool with it.
> 
> Edit 2: And now it disappeared and I look silly. Maybe I should just delete edit 1? Nah, I'll save that for Edit 3.


While I've always liked Terfel as a singer, I do partially agree with you about his looks: to me he always appears "British" no matter what the role. His Don Giovanni years ago at the Met for instance (which I have on DVD) reminds me of a rakish character in a Jane Austen novel -- not wholly inappropriate, considering the period, but he doesn't look remotely Spanish. His Scarpia looks like Sweeney Todd. (For the record, I do like both interpretations.)

You know who Terfel resembles, in fact? Hugh Bonneville. He's a similar physical type to him:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Or she disappears "to change" behind a curtain, re-emerging seconds later several pounds lighter with the figure and face of a young dancer, only to change back into her former self for the final scene.


Here's how the "Dance of the Seven Veils" was done last season at Virginia Opera. The Salome was onstage and danced, but there were also six professional dancers who looked just like her, and the idea was that Herod was trying to tell which was which:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Maybe when the subject of wobbles comes up... :devil:


You just can't stop yourself, can you?


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Speaking of, um, operas, I've changed plans from _Figaro_ to _Madama Butterfly_ after learning _Figaro_ it will be a period piece set in the 1930s. Since I don't want my Figaro to look like a character from _The Grapes of Wrath_ or, worse yet, _The Untouchables_, I'll pass. So what they look like goes beyond natural features for me as well. I can think of very few operas I know well enough to enjoy when the cast is dressed like Nicaraguan Sandinistas or spacemen. In fact, none.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

scratchgolf said:


> Speaking of, um, operas, I've changed plans from _Figaro_ to _Madama Butterfly_ after learning _Figaro_ it will be a period piece set in the 1930s. Since I don't want my Figaro to look like a character from _The Grapes of Wrath_ or, worse yet, _The Untouchables_, I'll pass. So what they look like goes beyond natural features for me as well. I can think of very few operas I know well enough to enjoy when the cast is dressed like Nicaraguan Sandinistas or spacemen. In fact, none.


You mean you won't be clamouring for tickets for the naked Un ballo in Maschera in Mickey Mouse masks set in the aftermath of 9/11?


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

DavidA said:


> So you don't look upon viewing opera as drama then?


I listen to opera very much as audio drama. I don't care as much about the specifics of the narrative but care a lot about the the emotional and musical content of the musical performance. I care a great deal about that whether the performance is singing or instrumental performance.

To put it another way, I feel just as stirred by the Appassionata or as devastated by Mahler's Sixth whatever the performers or instrumentalists or conductors look like, and to me, opera singers' appearance matters just about as much.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

sospiro said:


> You mean you won't be clamouring for tickets for the naked Un ballo in Maschera in Mickey Mouse masks set in the aftermath of 9/11?


I instantly regretted clicking that link. But yes, that would be a fair assessment.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I find all the comments about Terfel to be quite interesting in light of a very recent experience that I had. I have been checking out various _Meistersinger_ versions include Solti 1/Bailey, Solti 2/Van Dam & Sawallisch/Weikl and had come to the conclusion that the only one who really makes the cut for me as Hans Sachs is Norman Bailey. I was then looking on YouTube and quite accidentally came across a semi-staged _Meistersinger_ from the Proms done by the Welsh National Orchestra with Bryn Terfel as Sachs. My reaction was that I could imagine him as the cobbler, he seems to have the good nature and general looks for the role, but his singing was unimpressive. Maybe it was the Albert Hall acoustics but I have had a similar reaction on seeing him as Wotan.

Earlier mention was made of some of the very over-weight women who are making their vocal mark and I remember watching the documentary about the 2007 Met National auditions finals and it seemed that the female winners were on the noticeably heavy side ... Angela Meade, Jamie Barton and Amber Wagner, whereas those who didn't make the cut, Kiera Duffy & Dísella Làrusdóttir, or the men Michael Fabiano and Alek Shrader, were not. I'm not sure if that tells us anything, but it was quite striking.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> Earlier mention was made of some of the very over-weight women who are making their vocal mark and I remember watching the documentary about the 2007 Met National auditions finals and it seemed that the female winners were on the noticeably heavy side ... Angela Meade, Jamie Barton and Amber Wagner, whereas those who didn't make the cut, Kiera Duffy & Dísella Làrusdóttir, or the men Michael Fabiano and Alek Shrader, were not. I'm not sure if that tells us anything, but it was quite striking.


Reverse discrimination perhaps? To show they weren't prejudiced against overweight people?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Many here seem pretty down on Terfel, and I just wanted to say a few things regarding him. I think what puts some people off about him is that as a performer he's both out-sized (i.e. big physical presence, robust voice, extroverted rather than subtle interpretations) and _impulsive_; he's not a cerebral type of singer, and sometimes it seems as though he doesn't think his interpretations out very carefully but instead just "goes for it" and lets the pieces fall where they will, so to speak. I don't know that his voice is really big enough for Wagner; he's good on that Wagner album he did around 2000 or so, bringing many fine nuances to the music, but that was in a recording studio rather than live onstage.

I'm old enough to remember most of Terfel's international career, and in my opinion his best performances have tended to be in music for which he's vocally more or less over-endowed: for example, Mozart, the HOFFMANN villains, Nick Shadow in THE RAKE'S PROGRESS -- and the Broadway musical theatre repertoire. I own both his Rodgers and Hammerstein CD and his duet CD with Renee Fleming, and he's wonderful on both; his "Pretty Women" from SWEENEY TODD is absolutely stunning, one of his greatest recordings. And did you know he just played Tevye in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF in the UK? I mean, I don't imagine he came across as particularly Jewish, but other than that I can easily imagine him as Tevye!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I liked Terfel's voice the first time I heard it years ago, and I own three recital albums I think are outstanding: one of English song, one of Handel arias, and one of Welsh songs. Not only are his singing and his interpretations superb on these (all of them rather old by now, it's true), but he has a pleasing quality of personal expression - the sense of a personality behind the voice - that many singers these days lack. He comes across as very intelligent and good-natured. I haven't followed much of his opera work, but as I consider his a lighter, more lyric voice I would expect his Mozart to be well-sung. I don't care for his Scarpia with Gheorghiu, but I think that can be attributed partly to the director's concept. He is no _heldenbariton_ and Wotan is just out of his vocal league. Wolfram or Kurwenal would seem more suitable Wagner parts.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I liked Terfel's voice the first time I heard it years ago, and I own three recital albums I think are outstanding: one of English song, one of Handel arias, and one of Welsh songs. Not only are his singing and his interpretations superb on these (all of them rather old by now, it's true), but he has a pleasing quality of personal expression - the sense of a personality behind the voice - that many singers these days lack. He comes across as very intelligent and good-natured. I haven't followed much of his opera work, but as I consider his a lighter, more lyric voice I would expect his Mozart to be well-sung. I don't care for his Scarpia with Gheorghiu, but I think that can be attributed partly to the director's concept. He is no _heldenbariton_ and Wotan is just out of his vocal league. Wolfram or Kurwenal would seem more suitable Wagner parts.


Hear hear:tiphat:


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Becca said:


> Earlier mention was made of some of the very over-weight women who are making their vocal mark and I remember watching the documentary about the 2007 Met National auditions finals and it seemed that the female winners were on the noticeably heavy side ... Angela Meade, Jamie Barton and Amber Wagner, whereas those who didn't make the cut, Kiera Duffy & Dísella Làrusdóttir, or the men Michael Fabiano and Alek Shrader, were not. I'm not sure if that tells us anything, but it was quite striking.


..as an aside.
Made it to Glyndebourne last summer for the first time and here's a tip I feel obliged to share with you all...

If you take your picnic in the garden near to the car park you can see the mains stars dressing rooms and through the large windows they must enjoy lovely views over the Sussex Downs. Towards the end of the long interval the Soprano, who had been making calls on her mobile, closed her curtains/blinds presumably to change for the next act. Mr Fabiano did not. On returning with coffee my wife was smiling and she declared that he was rather buff for an Opera singer and apparently not shy at all.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I don't think they are treating it like a movie as a movie is made of a lot of takes put together - an entirely different process. I saw Richard II from the Royal Shakespeare company in the theatre the night it was being broadcast live. As there was an encore performance at the cinema a few weeks later I went to see that too - The same performance as I'd seen in the theatre. It was an entirely different experience even though I enjoyed both of them a lot.


How so? I would welcome more on this.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

While I'm not experienced with Wagner, it wasn't just me who found Terfel a magnetic Wotan in the vast Albert Hall. Similarly I've seen Sweeny Todd several times but even in the huge Coliseum he was the only one who has ever moved me. His voce doesn't seem big but it does carry? His Dutchman left me cold however.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Becca said:


> Earlier mention was made of some of the very over-weight women who are making their vocal mark and I remember watching the documentary about the 2007 Met National auditions finals and it seemed that the female winners were on the noticeably heavy side ... Angela Meade, Jamie Barton and Amber Wagner, whereas those who didn't make the cut, Kiera Duffy & Dísella Làrusdóttir, or the men Michael Fabiano and Alek Shrader, were not. I'm not sure if that tells us anything, but it was quite striking.





GregMitchell said:


> Reverse discrimination perhaps? To show they weren't prejudiced against overweight people?


Heh, tough crowd! If the skinny girl wins, it was for her looks; if the not-so-skinny girl wins, it's reverse discrimination.

I saw that documentary, and they made a point of showing portions of the judges' deliberation. The judges discussed the issue of weight and appearance explicitly in regard to Miss Meade. In typical reality-show fashion, no resolution was given until the award placements were announced on stage. First place indeed went to Angela Meade, sending the message that, at least for that panel in that year, voice reigned supreme.

Personally, when I see a larger framed singer will be performing, I adjust my expectations more towards superlative singing and less towards realistic drama. I find that both kinds of evenings can be enormously satisfying. Having said that, I recently saw Jamie Barton's Seymour opposite Sandra Radvanovsky's Bolena. Miss Barton is lovely young woman in her own right, as well as an accomplished actress. That, in combination with a voice that can only be described as ravishing, put Enrico VIII's attentions to her well within the realm of the credible.

And having said _that_... I do agree with Miss Horne that HD changes the emphasis somewhat. In an opera house, the singer may constitute 10% or less of your field of vision, whereas on the big screen, he or she may take up 40% or more. So the visual aspect becomes more important. Also, to some extent, the combination of a microphone and the sound engineer's mixing board magic can beef up a voice to above and beyond what the audience in the opera house hears. I confess that I am more prone to check out of the dramatic proceedings during an HD screening for that reason than I am during a live performance.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Belowpar said:


> ..as an aside.
> Made it to Glyndebourne last summer for the first time and here's a tip I feel obliged to share with you all...
> 
> If you take your picnic in the garden near to the car park you can see the mains stars dressing rooms and through the large windows they must enjoy lovely views over the Sussex Downs. Towards the end of the long interval the Soprano, who had been making calls on her mobile, closed her curtains/blinds presumably to change for the next act. Mr Fabiano did not. On returning with coffee my wife was smiling and she declared that he was rather buff for an Opera singer and apparently not shy at all.


Have never been to Glyndebourne ....... will have to rectify that!!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Belowpar said:


> While I'm not experienced with Wagner, it wasn't just me who found Terfel a magnetic Wotan in the vast Albert Hall. Similarly I've seen Sweeny Todd several times but even in the huge Coliseum he was the only one who has ever moved me. His voce doesn't seem big but it does carry? His Dutchman left me cold however.


The Dutchman is, IMO, a comparatively "weak" character in the Wagnerian canon. There's not much the singer has to work with, if you know what I mean, and perhaps a stage-animal like Terfel is at his best in more 3-dimensional parts.

I was at Welsh National Opera's opening night of _Meistersinger_, Terfel's "live" debut in the part of Sachs, and it was an unforgettable experience; he embodied the rôle like no other singer I've seen since Norman Bailey, who remains my benchmark. His interplay with the other members of the cast, especially the fine Beckmesser of Christopher Purves, was a joy to behold. Indeed, a measure of Terfel's greatness as a performer is the way in which he seems to get so much out of those around him - be they Susan Bullock, Kaufmann, Alagna or Emma Thompson, all of whom I've been lucky enough to see perform with him in recent years.

I can understand some folks' reservations about his voice in certain rôles, but that doesn't unduly faze me when I take the whole package into account. Bryn is a _Gesamtkünstler_ if ever there was one.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Belowpar said:


> How so? I would welcome more on this.


More? Can you elaborate?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I liked Terfel's voice the first time I heard it years ago, and I own three recital albums I think are outstanding: one of English song, one of Handel arias, and one of Welsh songs. Not only are his singing and his interpretations superb on these (all of them rather old by now, it's true), but he has a pleasing quality of personal expression - the sense of a personality behind the voice - that many singers these days lack. He comes across as very intelligent and good-natured. I haven't followed much of his opera work, but as I consider his a lighter, more lyric voice I would expect his Mozart to be well-sung. I *don't care for his Scarpia with Gheorghiu, but I think that can be attributed partly to the director's concept*. He is no _heldenbariton_ and Wotan is just out of his vocal league. Wolfram or Kurwenal would seem more suitable Wagner parts.


I enjoyed Bryn's Scarpia but thought it was odd he was dressed as an unshaven football hooligan. Surely the chief of police would at least look respectable. Another e ample of a director trying to emphasise the obvious and bs t'ead of letting the music do it.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Surely the chief of police would at least look respectable.


I guess there are exceptions to every rule:


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I don't think they are treating it like a movie as a movie is made of a lot of takes put together - an entirely different process. I saw Richard II from the Royal Shakespeare company in the theatre the night it was being broadcast live. As there was an encore performance at the cinema a few weeks later I went to see that too - The same performance as I'd seen in the theatre. It was an entirely different experience even though I enjoyed both of them a lot.


Different in what ways?

I have been to one Met relay and firstly it had to be said the audience were from different school. No doubt they all were in their seats in time to watch lots of adverts. Whatever we were definitely the last to sit down. Not surprisingly there didn't seem to be that buzz you often get live. Also the sound was lacking. It was modern Cinema and if anything it was slightly louder but something was missing...vibrations would be my guess. And live an singer moves about and microphones don't.

It's not that we didn't enjoy it but for the reasons above it did lack 'authenticity 'and I wasn't as involved as I often (but not always) am.

I was just wondering what I would feel if I'd also seen the same production (Cav/Pag) in the theatre too? Would I have felt differently about the story, certain performers. I was just wondering what you felt was different?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I enjoyed Bryn's Scarpia but thought it was odd he was dressed as an unshaven football hooligan.* Surely the chief of police would at least look respectable. Another e ample of a director trying to emphasise the obvious and bs t'ead of letting the music do it.*


Absolutely. It's the contrast between Scarpia's external formal correctness and his internal sadistic depravity that makes him so horrifying. Back to Gobbi.

P.S. Is your keyboard not working right or are you an even worse typist than I am?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I enjoyed Bryn's Scarpia but thought it was odd he was dressed as an unshaven football hooligan. Surely the chief of police would at least look respectable. Another e ample of a director trying to emphasise the obvious and bs t'ead of letting the music do it.


Gobbi played a Scarpia with impeccable manners, absolutely fastidious about his appearance, which somehow contrived to make him even more reptilian. Much more subtle.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I enjoyed Bryn's Scarpia but thought it was odd he was dressed as an unshaven football hooligan. Surely the chief of police would at least look respectable. Another e ample of a director trying to emphasise the obvious and bs t'ead of letting the music do it.


Regarding Scarpia's appearance in that production, I took the intended meaning to be something like "the thugs are running the city." But yeah, I do think it was a bit too obvious.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I like Bryn too. I love his Scarpia in the Malfitano/Terfel dvd. A bit 'Rocky Horror' perhaps but Scarpia is about abuse of power by an unscrupulous official. as long as that comes across. As long as the size/age thing isnt extreme in a staged production then its ok. Talent will out.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Badinerie said:


> I like Bryn too. I love his Scarpia in the Malfitano/Terfel dvd. A bit 'Rocky Horror' perhaps but Scarpia is about abuse of power by an unscrupulous official. as long as that comes across. As long as the size/age thing isnt extreme in a staged production then its ok. Talent will out.


I've seen that one live in Amsterdam, quit gripping indeed :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Absolutely. It's the contrast between Scarpia's external formal correctness and his internal sadistic depravity that makes him so horrifying. Back to Gobbi.
> 
> P.S. Is your keyboard not working right or are you an even worse typist than I am?


Very early in the morning plus this wretched auto-text!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

We asked for more dvd recordings and we got them.... in blinding hd with all those close-ups. Is it any wonder that looks have become a factor. I could get on my high horse and state how unimportant it is and how only the voice matters but it's not my money at stake and you don't have to be a marketing guru to understand why each of these cd covers were shot the way they were. There's not a lot of precedence where substance trumps style in the film world, which is what opera has become more than ever.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Couac, things have certainly changed since Georges Mendel filmed this:






I wish more had survived of these early short films which would have provided valuable evidence for the physical and visual aspects of operatic performance at the turn of the century. I believe that there was quite a spectrum, ranging from singing actors (the so-called 'physiognomic generation' of actor-singers identified by Karen Henson, including Maurel, Calvé and the de Reszkes) to those such as Jean Noté in the above clip, who were celebrated as singers more than as actors. Now the age of the close up has brought us, what, models who can sing and act a bit? I haven't seen many DVDs of opera, but if this is a trend, it's a bit worrying.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

You can say that again 

La marseillaise 200 aniversario Revolución Francesa - La mar


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

^ I'm not sure whether we should award the fashion prize to the wig and stripy trousers or to the tricolore muu muu!


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

God bless her...and all who sail in her!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> ^ I'm not sure whether we should award the fashion prize to the wig and stripy trousers or to the tricolore muu muu!


I can't actually _see_ her muu muu in that video, but I'll take your word for it


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

For me, it doesn't matter what singers look like.

Costuming and acting are important and should match the opera and production they're in. This isn't about making everyone look good, but having them look appropriate.

And I think people have very different tastes and find different things attractive. Hollywood standards for "overweight" are ridiculous, and I don't like seeing that same standard applied to opera singers, even if they are going to be broadcast to theaters and/or recorded for DVD. It doesn't really have anything to do with health - one can be healthy at a wide variety of weights.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> For me, it doesn't matter what singers look like.
> 
> It doesn't really have anything to do with health - one can be healthy at a wide variety of weights.


I'm not sure that clinically obese would be considered healthy though, and, let's face it, there are some singers out there who would answer to that description.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Sometimes music is just so beautiful that I just shut my eyes so as not to be distracted.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> For me, it doesn't matter what singers look like.
> 
> Costuming and acting are important and should match the opera and production they're in. This isn't about making everyone look good, but having them look appropriate.
> 
> And I think people have very different tastes and find different things attractive. Hollywood standards for "overweight" are ridiculous, and I don't like seeing that same standard applied to opera singers, even if they are going to be broadcast to theaters and/or recorded for DVD. It doesn't really have anything to do with health - one can be healthy at a wide variety of weights.


Hear, Hear ;


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Also posted under the Regietheatre post

http://www.economist.com/blogs/pros...nnas_aren_t_onstage_but_behind_the_curtain"]/


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Also posted under the Regietheatre post
> 
> http://www.economist.com/blogs/pros...nnas_aren_t_onstage_but_behind_the_curtain"]/


Interesting, thank you.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Medium can make a difference: I was one of the lucky ones who heard Jane Eaglen and Ben Heppner early in their careers do Tristan in Seattle. Both were in optimal voice and it was a thrilling experience. BUT, the video of the Met production with them in it suffered. Video closeups of them looking like two beached walruses were unwatchable. Same thing with the divine Jessye Norman who could look stunning onstage, but extreme closeups often ruined that grandeur in performances when translated to the small screen.


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## Classical Performances (Mar 8, 2016)

We live in an increasingly vain world. I feel this is due to the entertainment industry, mostly movies and music (and more recently facebook). This has affected all of us. Even to the point where when people look for a mate they put looks before personality. This is often a mistake. It is inevitable that this would affect opera singers and orchestral soloists. For opera, I believe it's a mistake to put looks before the voice. There are too many talented people that will be pushed aside because they don't exude sexuality. Unfortunately, this is modern day life. But, it's best not to buy a violin concerto CD just because she looks good on the cover.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Medium can make a difference: I was one of the lucky ones who heard Jane Eaglen and Ben Heppner early in their careers do Tristan in Seattle. Both were in optimal voice and it was a thrilling experience. BUT, the video of the Met production with them in it suffered. *Video closeups of them looking like two beached walruses were unwatchable.* Same thing with the divine Jessye Norman who could look stunning onstage, but extreme closeups often ruined that grandeur in performances when translated to the small screen.


I'm dying :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

To paraphrase the words of the great Clive James - human beings don't need to look beautiful but they should at least look human!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

scratchgolf said:


> I was on Amazon yesterday, browsing Bluray Ring Cycles. I was really interested in the Levine and even sampled it. The one thing I just couldn't get past was Terfel as Wotan, in the way I can't get past his Don Giovanni. I can tolerate his Figaro if I don't look at him. I'm not being mean, and hope it doesn't come off as such. As a tolerant, straight man, Terfel's looks along with females too matter to me more for credibility than an attractive face to look at. A willful suspension of disbelief does have its limits. And since my opera experience is young, he's really been the first big name I've avoided on purpose. I just don't think his style is my style. Not trying to pick at any Terfel fans. Any ensuing arguments, you already win :tiphat:


Unfortunately I feel the same way about Terfel. It's a 1st for me as well...as to the topic, the voice must come 1st & I pray that never changes. BUT looks certainly matter & there's nothing wrong with that.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Unfortunately I feel the same way about Terfel. It's a 1st for me as well...as to the topic, the voice must come 1st & I pray that never changes. BUT looks certainly matter & there's nothing wrong with that.


The voice comes always first, if the singer looks alright then it's a plus .


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

A couple years ago I felt like Mariusz Kwiecien's contracts all stipulated that he got to take his shirt off in every role (or at least have it way open).


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## russetvelvet (Oct 14, 2016)

graziesignore said:


> A couple years ago I felt like Mariusz Kwiecien's contracts all stipulated that he got to take his shirt off in every role (or at least have it way open).


You made my day sir!!!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> A couple years ago I felt like Mariusz Kwiecien's contracts all stipulated that he got to take his shirt off in every role (or at least have it way open).


Perhaps it's becoming his trademark.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

Pugg said:


> The voice comes always first, if the singer looks alright then it's a plus .


My sentiments too.


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## dnitzer (May 1, 2017)

Remember, the first performances of Traviata were disasters, because the audience could not believe the soprano had consumption -- so looks do matter, like it or not. I value the singing and the music over the looks personally, and I'm not generally bothered by a singer's looks if the voice and the musicianship and the characterization is good. What gives me a hard time is this current era of SuperStar Stage Directors who don't have enough imagination in their ears to stage an opera, and so they use the opportunity to make some sort of statement that nobody understands but themselves. I have a rule of thumb and it seems to work well -- if the director's production notes are longer than the plot synopsis, something's wrong -- it means the director wasn't able to convey his "message" adequately with his production, if he has to explain it first. I heard James Conlon not too long ago, say "Just tell the story, the composer already worked it out for you..."


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

For me, the musicians must perform the music to how I like it! Must sound right!! If they look good, an added bonus (a certain musician)!!!!


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