# The Plangency of the Electric Guitar: A Lost World



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I am not a student of the guitar (or of any musical instrument); I cannot tell authoritatively whether it is being played with great technical proficiency or not, nor who is a "great" guitarist. Yet the creation of the electric guitar, to me, seems one of the transformational events in musico-instrumental history. Besides its incredible versatility and chameleon-like ability to mimic other instruments (as well as creating brand-new sounds), the modern electric guitar can express a plangency, a wistfulness, a melancholy, that can rival or exceed that of the family of orchestral stringed instruments. One can only ruefully guess at what wonderful musical creations might have resulted, had certain classical composers had access to such an instrument. In a post about the keyboard music of Bach being played on modern pianos, I opined that Bach would likely have kicked, shoved, and elbowed his way to the front of the line to be first to try out the new instrument. Similarly, we can postulate that a small host of late 19th and early 20th century composers, already writing "plangent" melodies, would flock to learn the capabilities of the electric guitar, and see what new possibilities such an expressive instrument opened up. 

My own sense would be that almost the whole stable of Russian composers would lead the pack, along with Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Respighi, Villa-Lobos; perhaps even Brahms and Sibelius. Do others suggest themselves? Yet this must remain a case of pure imagination, of might-have-been. The timing just wasn't right. As it was, Rock was the primary beneficiary of the new technology, and has used it spectacularly well. But imagine what might have been the result today in drawing a young audience into appreciation of classical music, if a substantial body of such music had been composed for and performed on such a protean, universal instrument. It could even yet happen, should the world change......


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Rock is (almost) dead as a commercial genre. You are like 40-50 years too late to the electric guitar party... The new and interesting trend is electronic music; plus you can really create any existing timbre with electronic devices. The only problem is how playable are these synthesizers, but these days we have very nice keyboards like Roli and similar.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Contemporary composers are using it. For example:


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> Besides its incredible versatility and chameleon-like ability to mimic other instruments (as well as creating brand-new sounds), the modern electric guitar can express a plangency, a wistfulness, a melancholy, that can rival or exceed that of the family of orchestral stringed instruments.


This premise works provided that you're willing to completely overlook the violin... if you're not... it doesn't...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> This premise works provided that you're willing to completely overlook the violin... if you're not... it doesn't...


I take your post to mean you believe the violin (which I obviously did not overlook) exceeds the plangency of the electric guitar. And obviously we disagree.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Time to go downstairs!!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Rock is (almost) dead as a commercial genre. You are like 40-50 years too late to the electric guitar party... The new and interesting trend is electronic music; plus you can really create any existing timbre with electronic devices. The only problem is how playable are these synthesizers, but these days we have very nice keyboards like Roli and similar.


Rock may be (almost) dead, yet, like the music of Bach, it lives and will continue to live. And you should sort out with aleazk how too late the electric guitar party is. There seem to still be plenty of the old clunkers around.


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## RockyIII (Jan 21, 2019)

I heard part of an interesting electric guitar concerto on the SiriusXM Symphony Hall channel a couple of days ago, but I didn't catch the composer's name.

Rocky


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Re aleazk's post: We see that composers are incorporating the electric guitar into contemporary compositions. Yet my imagined scenario emphasized the plangent quality of the electric guitar as being singularly suited to those late 19th-early 20th century composers whom I surmised might be most drawn to the new instrument. aleazk's examples, though interesting, do not demonstrate that particular strength of the electric guitar. My specimen "what if" would be things like Steve Hackett's _Firth of Fifth_ solo from Selling England by the Pound. There are uncounted other examples that we each could think of as templates for that imaginary concerto by (name your composer)...


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I take your post to mean you believe the violin (which I obviously did not overlook) exceeds the plangency of the electric guitar. And obviously we disagree.


So provide us with links to electric guitar versions of the great (or even not-so-great) violin concertos or sonatas which have been recorded by name conductors leading name orchestras featuring a guitarist whose playing can rival or exceed those recorded by Heifetz or Milstein or Oistrakh.

And I really should have phrased the question as "This premise works provided that *one* is willing to completely overlook the violin... if *one* is not... it doesn't..." so don't take it personally... but your premise is, was, and always shall be flawed but somehow I doubt that will stop you from defending it...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> So provide us with links to electric guitar versions of the great (or even not-so-great) violin concertos or sonatas which have been recorded by name conductors leading name orchestras featuring a guitarist whose playing can rival or exceed those recorded by Heifetz or Milstein or Oistrakh.
> 
> And I really should have phrased the question as "This premise works provided that *one* is willing to completely overlook the violin... if *one* is not... it doesn't..." so don't take it personally... but your premise is, was, and always shall be flawed but somehow I doubt that will stop you from defending it...


If you re-read my OP, you will note that it describes A Lost World, a world that never existed. So as we both know, I cannot supply links to what isn't there.

You assert that my premise is flawed. What is the flaw? (Other than that we disagree--I think--on the relative plangencies of the violin and the electric guitar.)


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> Yet the creation of the electric guitar, to me, seems *one of the transformational events in musico-instrumental history*. Besides its incredible versatility and chameleon-like ability to mimic other instruments (as well as creating brand-new sounds), the modern electric guitar can express a plangency, a wistfulness, a melancholy, that can rival or exceed that of the family of orchestral stringed instruments.





Strange Magic said:


> If you re-read my OP, you will note that it describes A Lost World, a world that never existed. So as we both know, I cannot supply links to what isn't there.
> 
> You assert that my premise is flawed. What is the flaw? (Other than that we disagree--I think--on the relative plangencies of the violin and the electric guitar.)


I think that "flaw" "A.)" is the acceptance of the premise that the electric guitar is "one of the transformational events in musico-instrumental history" and flaw "B.)" is the acceptance of the statement "the modern electric guitar can express a plangency, a wistfulness, a melancholy, that can rival or exceed that of the family of orchestral stringed instruments."

You'll recognize the tune -

"So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree"

It's an interesting thread premise - I hope it generates the interest it merits.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Rock is (almost) dead as a commercial genre...


Apparently not:



KenOC said:


> The following table is from Nielsen Music's 2017 Year-end Report. It speaks for itself. (The full report can be downloaded from here.)


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

as my guitar gently weeps


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

The most popular piece I've heard that might fit whatever SM is asking, no, demanding us to agree with, would be Dharma at Big Sur, for.... electric violin. 

I hate wine drinking terms to describe music, like plangent. Accordions are supposedly plangent. Basically, anything with a certain timbre or overtone spectrum fits the term I suppose. Electric guitars were developed by Fender to exploit overtones produced by tubes. So this is just one more tool in the toolkit for musicians and many other tools for overtone manipulation have been developed since then. Not a Lost World ... the rest of the world has just gotten bigger. This kind of thread only serves to divide rock fans and classical fans by imposing a false premise. So easy to see through.

But I'm sure this comment will just draw more disagreement... who cares...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^I'm not demanding that anyone (you) agree with anything.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

^^^ more accurately, composing a thesis about music as if it was a homework assignment from an English teacher. She may give you an A but the music department takes a pass because there is nothing new under the sun to see.

As forum fodder, the thesis is so overstated in advance - for the English teacher to admire - that it leaves nothing but digging in to defend or oppose the thesis. High school stuff.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Re aleazk's post: We see that composers are incorporating the electric guitar into contemporary compositions. Yet my imagined scenario emphasized the plangent quality of the electric guitar as being singularly suited to those late 19th-early 20th century composers whom I surmised might be most drawn to the new instrument. aleazk's examples, though interesting, do not demonstrate that particular strength of the electric guitar. My specimen "what if" would be things like Steve Hackett's _Firth of Fifth_ solo from Selling England by the Pound. There are uncounted other examples that we each could think of as templates for that imaginary concerto by (name your composer)...


Mm, yes, it's a bit difficult to get exactly what kind of subjective feeling you are referring at, we only have words... anyway, I like this bit from the first example in my post precisely because I find it melancholic, some sort of post-modern Takemitsu with an electric guitar.

I also like this arrangment for electric guitars of Cage's Dream. The piece has some impressionist-like harmonies, so it may be closer to what you were talking about.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

philoctetes said:


> ^^^ more accurately, composing a thesis about music as if it was a homework assignment from an English teacher. She may give you an A but the music department takes a pass because there is nothing new under the sun to see.
> 
> As forum fodder, the thesis is so overstated in advance - for the English teacher to admire - that it leaves nothing but digging in to defend or oppose the thesis. High school stuff.


Thank you for your analysis!:tiphat:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Some examples of what I regard as "transformational" v. "non-transformational" innovations in musico-instrumental history:

Transformational:

First Broadwood and Steinway pianos manufactured (some posthumously) to meet requests of LVB. Affected classical and many other genres.

Saxophone: Strongly influenced Jazz, Band (marching, Big Band), 1950s Rock.

Electric Guitar: Strongly influenced post 1950s Rock and Pop.

Non-Transformative (Less Transformative):

Celesta, Theremin, Wagner Tuba


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

aleazk said:


> Mm, yes, it's a bit difficult to get exactly what kind of subjective feeling you are referring at, we only have words... anyway, I like this bit from the first example in my post precisely because I find it melancholic, some sort of post-modern Takemitsu with an electric guitar.
> 
> I also like this arrangment for electric guitars of Cage's Dream. The piece has some impressionist-like harmonies, so it may be closer to what you were talking about.


Thanks for isolating some specific examples. I do think, however, it is primarily in legato passages moreso than in plucked notes that the peculiar excellence of electric guitar plangency is best exhibited IMO, as the _Firth of Fifth_ excerpt shows. Some other examples would be Eric Clapton's cover on the Layla album of _Little Wing_, some of David Gilmour's playing, or Neil Young in _Cortez the Killer_.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Consider that the guitar is a chromatic instrument, unlike the keyboard, which, with its seven white and five black keys, is diatonically biased. This gives the guitar an advantage in the contemporary age of chromaticism. Here's a use of the electric guitar in an orchestral context:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I've always thought that "plangent" was practically coined to describe the oboe. 

Yes, the sax practically transformed jazz -- but just about the only classical use of it that neither calls up nor depends upon its jazz associations in the DelVecchio Castello movement from Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition.

The electric guitar transformed popular music (rock, rock and roll, some folk, some jazz) and helped make it was it became (mainly loud) -- but I'm not sure it would have had any more influence on 19th century CM than the saxophone would have had on 20th c. But who's to say though?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Strange Magic said:


> ...
> My own sense would be that almost the whole stable of Russian composers would lead the pack, along with Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Respighi, Villa-Lobos; perhaps even Brahms and Sibelius. Do others suggest themselves? Yet this must remain a case of pure imagination, of might-have-been. The timing just wasn't right. As it was, Rock was the primary beneficiary of the new technology, and has used it spectacularly well. But imagine what might have been the result today in drawing a young audience into appreciation of classical music, if a substantial body of such music had been composed for and performed on such a protean, universal instrument. It could even yet happen, should the world change......


It's an interesting hypothetical. I can easily imagine Ravel's Pavane being played on electric guitar. Definitely fits the definition of plangent: (of a sound) loud and resonant, with a mournful tone.

Maybe you're right about works like this having potential to be popular, if they existed. I quite like the few pieces involving saxophone in the repertoire - two by Debussy and Villa-Lobos who you mention, but also Bizet, Kodaly, Glazunov and Milhaud.

They're not only different because the composer wrote for an unconventional instrument with its unique sounds, but also because by doing that they where made to think differently. Mozart's pieces for clarinet come to mind, then a new instrument and fast forward to the swing era and you had Benny Goodman playing them. He in turn inspired composers to write music for him which took cues from jazz (e.g. Copland, Bartok).

Although I don't see them as plangent, Paganini and Liszt where the rock stars of their day. Vivaldi at the height of his fame wasn't too much different. Plangent or not, I can imagine Four Seasons played by electric guitar. Many arrangements have been made, perhaps for rock band too? I like the big band arrangement by Raymond Fol featuring Johnny Griffin on sax.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> This premise works provided that you're willing to completely overlook the violin... if you're not... it doesn't...


The violin is capable of great expression and nuance, but it doesn't possess the harmonic possibilities available to the guitarist.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

MarkW said:


> I've always thought that "plangent" was practically coined to describe the oboe.
> 
> Yes, the sax practically transformed jazz -- but just about the only classical use of it that neither calls up nor depends upon its jazz associations in the DelVecchio Castello movement from Ravel's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition.
> 
> The electric guitar transformed popular music (rock, rock and roll, some folk, some jazz) and helped make it was it became (mainly loud) -- but I'm not sure it would have had any more influence on 19th century CM than the saxophone would have had on 20th c. But who's to say though?


Given the tales of Borodin and Rimsky-Korsakov taking home musical instruments and sitting together to try them out and see what sort of sounds could be produced, I can easily imagine them playing with a Stratocaster and amps, or getting a local player to show them how it works, then working up some juicy compositions to exhibit their newfound discovery. Ditto the rest of the suspects I mentioned.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

starthrower said:


> The violin is capable of great expression and nuance, but it doesn't possess the harmonic possibilities available to the guitarist.


 Try listening to Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin -






for examples on the harmonic possibilities available to the violinist.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

After LSD I flew away acoustic forever .


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

There was a guy who played the Cello Suites on an electric cello, morphing into Hendrix and such along the way. Saw him at Zebulon's in Petaluma. Afraid he would easily disprove these comments re guitar vs the bow, but can;t recall his name...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The electric guitar may or may not excel in plangency, but the mere mention of one is enough to put me in the mood for Gregorian chant, which I don't even enjoy.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

The sax is plangent. The harmonica is plangent. I can play the Pavane on either. Who needs a guitar?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> The electric guitar may or may not excel in plangency, but the mere mention of one is enough to put me in the mood for Gregorian chant, which I don't even enjoy.


What about one without distortion and playing Bach's lute suites (or arrangments of the cello ones)?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

aleazk said:


> What about one without distortion and playing Bach's lute suites (or arrangments of the cello ones)?


A real guitar - sorry, I mean an acoustic guitar  - works just fine.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Compare and contrast... It's not even close...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

As is (or should be) obvious to the meanest understanding, the thrust of this thought experiment/speculation has nothing to do with playing Bach lute suites, the Mendelssohn violin concerto, etc., on the electric guitar. Yet another reading of the OP might help to grasp the point of the thread.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> Yet another reading of the OP might help to grasp the point of the thread.


Right back at you, sport - especially this part -



Strange Magic said:


> I am *not a student of the guitar* (*or of any musical instrument*); I *cannot tell authoritatively *whether it is being played with great technical proficiency or not, nor who is a "great" guitarist.


as we may understand the point of the thread better than you do - :lol: - which is probably what's frosting you so royally.

Experiment a bit more on this "thought experiment", eh? - Thanks!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^You needn't bother further with a show of obtuseness. We both know you understand my OP perfectly but are irritated because you cannot muster a plausible counterargument to what was presented as an exercise in pure speculation. No cigar for you.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^^You needn't bother further with a show of obtuseness. We both know you understand my OP perfectly but are irritated because you cannot muster a plausible counterargument to what was presented as an exercise in pure speculation. No cigar for you.


^^^^^^^^^ You're on the wrong page of the script - those are *my* lines you're reading... That's what happens when you miss too many rehearsals - :lol:

And full disclosure - *you substantially changed your original post* and added a additional qualifiers that weren't there when I started posting so you have little to no right to criticize someone for not checking that the OP was altered to such an extent - disingenuous at best deceptive at best.

Provide even a single example of "irritableness" in any post I've written. Now ask me to provide an example and I would reply "every single post you've written in response to someone who dares to disagree with your purely speculative "thought experiment".

It's a rubbish thread - "exercise in pure speculation/thought experiment" (said with a straight face and written without laughing out loud) - which essentially means that no one can ever provide any kind of answer either plausible or implausible because your only response is an apparently endless parade of condescending "you just don't understand" comments even though you're the one whose first statement essentially states your complete ignorance of the instrument that you're conducting this "thought experiment" upon.

You're Exhibit A on why spending too much time in "Groups" is a really bad idea. Either stay there where no one ever calls you out and arguing for the sake of arguing is an art form (which you've mastered by the way) or work on your game if you're going to try to play up here.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> Re aleazk's post: We see that composers are incorporating the electric guitar into contemporary compositions. Yet my imagined scenario emphasized the plangent quality of the electric guitar as being singularly suited to those late 19th-early 20th century composers whom I surmised might be most drawn to the new instrument. aleazk's examples, though interesting, do not demonstrate that particular strength of the electric guitar. My specimen "what if" would be things like Steve Hackett's _Firth of Fifth_ solo from Selling England by the Pound. There are uncounted other examples that we each could think of as templates for that imaginary concerto by (name your composer)...


do you know composers like David Bedford or Glenn Branca?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Very well, one last attempt, Frank, to see if you can be helped. But it can only work if your failure to understand my simple OP is feigned and you simply cannot supply a counterargument, no matter how feeble. If it is real, then I cannot be of use, nor can anyone else.

My speculation, in the simplest terms, is of the form "What might be the result if certain late 19th-early 20th century composers [named] had been given access to a modern electric guitar? What might they have composed?"

Your only remotely viable counterargument--if it can be called such--is to reply: "No! No! A thousand times No! Unlike the big and sonorous new piano, the saxophone, even the celesta and the Wagner tuba, those composers would never, ever accept such a diabolical innovation as the electric guitar and compose for it! I just know this is true. I can feel it in my bones!"

I hope this helps. :tiphat:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

norman bates said:


> do you know composers like David Bedford or Glenn Branca?


I do not. Please elucidate. I assume they are not late 19th-early 20th century composers (though I could be wrong); it is that cadre whom I suspect would be most apt to produce works drawing upon the legato plangency of the electric guitar.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

BabyGiraffe said:


> *Rock is (almost) dead as a commercial genre.* You are like 40-50 years too late to the electric guitar party... The new and interesting trend is electronic music; plus you can really create any existing timbre with electronic devices. The only problem is how playable are these synthesizers, but these days we have very nice keyboards like Roli and similar.


The statistics DaveM cites in #13 roundly refute this. But I don't believe they go far enough. Much of the money in rock these days doesn't show up on that chart because it comes from ticket sales to live performances. If one factored that in, I wouldn't be surprised if rock turned out to be the top money maker. Of course, this has nothing to do with the OP.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is interesting in this context to look at the introduction of the electric guitar to jazz in the 1960s and onwards. You get a different sound and the instrument is used in a different way - even McLaughlin in the Mahavishnu Orchestra or with Miles and others in Bitches Brew, Jack Johnson etc. And when he wanted a Hendrix-like sound Miles chose Reggie Lucas who was not at all like Hendrix. It is like he got it wrong. I think if electric guitar were to be widely used in CM it would sound different again. It would not be the electric guitar of rock and would probably not be the electric guitar on jazz.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

> Frank Freaking Sinatra: "And full disclosure - you substantially changed your original post and added a additional qualifiers that weren't there when I started posting so you have little to no right to criticize someone for not checking that the OP was altered to such an extent - disingenuous at best deceptive at best."


It is not only false, but demonstrably false, that the OP has been altered.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

philoctetes said:


> The sax is plangent. The harmonica is plangent. I can play the Pavane on either. Who needs a guitar?


I do when I want to listen a chordal melody. I don't need guitar much in classical music, and I don't want to listen to a harmonica either.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> Compare and contrast... It's not even close...


even from the first few seconds it's quite clear the first one with the guitar is horrible first of all because of the truly tacky arrangement, more than for the instrument in itself.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> I do not. Please elucidate. I assume they are not late 19th-early 20th century composers (though I could be wrong); it is that cadre whom I suspect would be most apt to produce works drawing upon the legato plangency of the electric guitar.


well since you mentioned Genesis and Fourth of fifth I've thought about Bedford, who made albums with Mike Oldfield on the guitar on works that sounds both as classical and prog rock stuff.
Glenn Branca is quite different, he obviously doesn't have anything to do with romantic music but but works as Ascension show interesting ways to use many guitars as a orchestra.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> It is interesting in this context to look at the introduction of the electric guitar to jazz in the 1960s and onwards. You get a different sound and the instrument is used in a different way - even McLaughlin in the Mahavishnu Orchestra or with Miles and others in Bitches Brew, Jack Johnson etc. And when he wanted a Hendrix-like sound Miles chose Reggie Lucas who was not at all like Hendrix. It is like he got it wrong. I think if electric guitar were to be widely used in CM it would sound different again. It would not be the electric guitar of rock and would probably not be the electric guitar on jazz.


Another area of overlap--much less sophisticated, to be sure--is heard in the collaboration between Papa John Creach on his electric violin and guitarist Jorma Kaukonen when both were in the Airplane, and between Creach and Craig Chaquico in J. Starship. In those examples, Creach was exploiting/exploring the similarities in overall sonic texture shared by the two instruments. I agree (and it's clear from the examples already provided) that, since the era of the cadre of composers I postulated is over, it is not likely that the electric guitar will ever resound to the sorts of music that would have been heard, had the electric guitar appeared, say, 125 years ago.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Ha, I saw PJC and the Starship several times... Papa John Screech we called him... I think he learned a lot from Vassar Clemens, who was playing with Old and In the Way, unamplified, using similar stopping techniques to get that persistent train-on-a-blackboard sound.... Jerry Garcia being the common bond between both groups...

Anyway, it's not getting anywhere when actual CM examples are rejected in favor of old pop music examples... all for the sake of an elusive adjective... I'm reminded of some of those discussions with millions, where he just keeps insisting that nobody knows what he's talking about when they do....


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

philoctetes said:


> Anyway, it's not getting anywhere when actual CM examples are rejected in favor of old pop music examples... all for the sake of an elusive adjective... I'm reminded of some of those discussions with millions, where he just keeps insisting that nobody knows what he's talking about when they do....


(Sigh) The OP is perfectly clear in its speculative "what if...." formulation. Perhaps you could start your own thread that fully comports with your understanding of the OP, or begin with a new OP.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Sure. This thread is nowhere. Enjoy posting to yourself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The difficulty people are having here is, I'm guessing, that the sounds we've heard from the electric guitar seem remote from the musical tradition we know as "classical," at least until very recent times when all sounds seem fair game (and when sounds for their own sake have in fact become the entire substance of much that now passes for classical music). I can't imagine any composer before the 20th century having much use for the electric guitar (taking that to mean something other than an amplified guitar). My lack of imagination may reflect no more than my own limited contact with the instrument, since I avoid most music that employs it. But it is certainly not ridiculous to speculate about it, and the abuse certain people here have heaped on the OP is completely unwarranted.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

My guitar was made in Viet Nam sometime after the American War . It has a bridge of sorrows . Birds of inlay fly up the neck .


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

New instruments have made their way into classical orchestras since the Baroque period. Obviously composers heard the new sounds and decided to incorporate them into their music. The electric guitar has been used mostly in popular music, but as aleazk noted, there are modern composers who chose to use the electric guitar. So we know electric guitar's can be used in classical works, but had they been available 100 years or so earlier, would composers have chosen to use them in some compositions? Is there anything in the timbre or other aspects of electric guitars that would have influenced Romantic composers _to write music for that specific timbre_?

My first thought is to find instruments of the 1800s that were not used in orchestras and determine why they were not. There were instruments not used (e.g. bugle and fife), but there were very similar (or better) instruments already in use. There does appear to be one common instrument not used in orchestras - harmonica. I think the harmonica simply could not produce enough sound, but maybe there are other reasons. So I'm not sure there were distinct, non-problematic instruments available to composers that were not used. If I'm wrong, let me know. Given that observation, I find it hard to believe that no composer would have chosen to use an electric guitar.

I agree with Woodduck that it's somewhat difficult for many of us to "hear" an electric guitar in Romantic music, and maybe Romantic composers would also have shied away from such use. I still think someone or maybe several would have experimented with the new, plangent (for want of a better word) sound.



Woodduck said:


> ...But it is certainly not ridiculous to speculate about it, and the abuse certain people here have heaped on the OP is completely unwarranted.


I also agree with Woodduck on this issue.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> My first thought is to find instruments of the 1800s that were not used in orchestras and determine why they were not. There were instruments not used (e.g. bugle and fife), but there were very similar (or better) instruments already in use. There does appear to be one common instrument not used in orchestras - harmonica. I think the harmonica simply could not produce enough sound, but maybe there are other reasons. So I'm not sure there were distinct, non-problematic instruments available to composers that were not used. If I'm wrong, let me know.


The saxophone was invented in 1846, but for the next 50 years or so classical composers didn't take to it and it was used only in bands. Wagner thought that it made a sound like "Reckankreuzungsklankewerkzeuge," which appears to be a word he made up to describe it. Part of the reason for its neglect may be that it's too distinctive and stands out too much; even when it started to be heard in classical music, it was mainly in solos rather than as part of the wind section.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> I agree with Woodduck that it's somewhat difficult for many of us to "hear" an electric guitar in Romantic music, and maybe Romantic composers would also have shied away from such use. I still think someone or maybe several would have experimented with the new, plangent (for want of a better word) sound.


I'm curious to know what are here the opinions about things like:





vivaldi with distortion





baroque improvisations with a clean tone





bartok, clean tone





ravel, clean tone

this metal piece could show how a distorted electric guitar could work in a romantic context


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Here I go again! I just recently discovered this piece. You gotta hear all of it! Makes your ears wobble a bit with the harmonics. Steve Reichs Electric Counterpoint is a perfect example of (electric) guitar in (classical) music. I was a part of a performance with classical guitars while studying in SF. A highlight of my guitar-life


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I will listen eagerly to the fresh new examples. Meanwhile I consider my preference for performances of the Khachaturian piano concerto wherein the eerie shivering sound of the flexatone can be heard in the first part of the second movement--the recording with Orbelian at the keyboard offers this clearly. An album note from an old Czech LP of the PC, also with flexatone, claimed that Khachaturian sought to imitate an obscure Armenian folk instrument like a musical saw. I'm thus wistfully certain(?) that some of the Russians would have delighted in the possibilities of the electric guitar, and written for it.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I like the electric guitar. A very expressive instrument, in the right hands. Mark Knopfler, David Gilmour. Not sure what late 19th century/early 20th century classical composers could have done with it, if it existed back then. Its sound doesn't really seem to fit with the music / the other instruments.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> The saxophone was invented in 1846, but for the next 50 years or so classical composers didn't take to it and it was used only in bands. Wagner thought that it made a sound like "Reckankreuzungsklankewerkzeuge," which appears to be a word he made up to describe it. Part of the reason for its neglect may be that it's too distinctive and stands out too much; even when it started to be heard in classical music, it was mainly in solos rather than as part of the wind section.


Interestingly, when I first saw this thread, I thought of wild electric guitar solos with orchestra. I suspect that composers might have thought the electric guitar was too distinctive and stood out too much, but maybe someone would have tamed and integrated the sound in some way.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> Interestingly, when I first saw this thread, I thought of wild electric guitar solos with orchestra. I suspect that composers might have thought the electric guitar was too distinctive and stood out too much, but maybe someone would have tamed and integrated the sound in some way.


My own hypothesis has the electric guitar playing the exact same role as soloist violin, piano, cello, whatever, as in any concerto. I can't think of any reason why it should not serve that function.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm sure Norwegian Terje Rypdal has some pieces with orchestra, I've only listened to his jazz-combo music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I'm sure Norwegian Terje Rypdal has some pieces with orchestra, I've only listened to his jazz-combo music.


I like him a lot. He doesn't need an orchestra. And he sounds nothing like conventional jazz.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I listened with interest to the most recent selections of electric guitar examples. They do, though, mostly emphasize the plucked, pizzicato aspect of guitar play rather than the modern electric instrument's capacity for legato expression, note-bending, etc. The best I can do is offer another example of the sort of guitar plangency (there's that word again!) that, say, some Russian composer of yesteryear might have seized upon to create a whole new sort of hyperexpressive concerto--Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff--or a new though perhaps spurious orientalism--The Five, or even Prokofiev in a mad moment. Here is David Gilmour being _Comfortably Numb_.....


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Hmm, I think the solo in the Pulse version is considerably better and more epic. One of the few moments in rock music worth my time. One for the ages.





Personally I dont think such a sound would fit very well in classical music of any kind, but I admire its wildly expressive qualities.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> My own hypothesis has the electric guitar playing the exact same role as soloist violin, piano, cello, whatever, as in any concerto. I can't think of any reason why it should not serve that function.


A mix of electronic/acoustic instrument sounds can be incongruent in 3d live-performance . An electric guitar's amp is essentially 1-directional . But guitar lovers of pathos will forgive this .

In a recording all these sounds become spatially equal - all's well .


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^DeepR, Very fine. As I listened, the thought struck me that the Reinhold Gliere of _Ilya Muromets_ might have been particularly entranced by the aural possibilities of the modern electric guitar.....


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> A mix of electronic/acoustic instrument sounds can be incongruent in 3d live-performance . An electric guitar's amp is essentially 1-directional . But guitar lovers of pathos will forgive this .
> 
> In a recording all these sounds become spatially equal - all's well .


I would think that modern technology could deal with this situation. A similar problem presents itself when "quiet" instruments like the acoustic guitar are pitted against an orchestra such as in the Rodrigo guitar concerto.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> I listened with interest to the most recent selections of electric guitar examples. They do, though, mostly emphasize the plucked, pizzicato aspect of guitar play rather than the modern electric instrument's capacity for legato expression, note-bending, etc. The best I can do is offer another example of the sort of guitar plangency (there's that word again!) that, say, some Russian composer of yesteryear might have seized upon to create a whole new sort of hyperexpressive concerto--Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff--or a new though perhaps spurious orientalism--The Five, or even Prokofiev in a mad moment. Here is David Gilmour being _Comfortably Numb_.....


now I get what you're looking for. i think you mean the sound of a guitar with a lot of sustain that usually comes with distortion (even if today it's possible to have it also in different ways). Anyway the two videos of Sinfonity (who you should check out more, since they play a lot of classical music) and Daniele Gottardo go in that direction, the same kind of sound used by Gilmour on Comfortably numb, altough maybe the virtuosistic nature of the two pieces put more emphasis on speed than very long notes. 
I mentioned before the collaboration between the classical composer David Bedford and Mike Oldfield:






(Someone would maybe mention Yngwie Malmsteen at this point and his album with the orchestra, but I think it's super tacky stuff and I strongly dislike it. But maybe you could try to listen to it.)


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I would think that modern technology could deal with this situation. A similar problem presents itself when "quiet" instruments like the acoustic guitar are pitted against an orchestra such as in the Rodrigo guitar concerto.


Modern theatrical tech , huh ? Such faith . I'm sure the recordings would be ok , which is likely all you know of . Or please describe your concert hall experiences in listening or producing . I've enough producing experience to inspire practical questions . We've all suffered insufficient concert sound - up against the wall however gloriously it's promoted . Let the sun shine .


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Modern theatrical tech , huh ? Such faith . I'm sure the recordings would be ok , which is likely all you know of . Or please describe your concert hall experiences in listening or producing . I've enough producing experience to inspire practical questions . We've all suffered insufficient concert sound - up against the wall however gloriously it's promoted . Let the sun shine .


The problem is either:

Easily Solvable

Solvable With Difficulty, Given Sufficient Expertise

Not Solvable

Which box should I check?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

There was a period after the guitar got amplified, before rock, when it was used as an accompaniment in the rhythm section, and was "cleanly" amplified, and was a hollow-bodied instrument, before Les Paul invented the solid body. It could now take audible single-note solos. It was still used as a harmony instrument, as well, with chordal abilities rivaling the piano.

This is the "good" electric guitar, not the "evil" distorted one which so many people generalize about.






Now, here's the original recording by Ted Greene, with transcription.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> There was a period after the guitar got amplified, before rock, when it was used as an accompaniment in the rhythm section, and was "cleanly" amplified, and was a hollow-bodied instrument, before Les Paul invented the solid body. It could now take audible single-note solos. It was still used as a harmony instrument, as well, with chordal abilities rivaling the piano.
> 
> This is the "good" electric guitar, not the "evil" distorted one which so many people generalize about.
> 
> ...


Ted Greene is one of my very favorite guitarists (I think we talked about him in the past), and I've mentioned him in the previous page, but it seems it's not what Strange Magic is looking for (I think he's looking more for distortion).
That said that version of Danny boy is absolutely incredible.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think the main reason music as described in the OP has not proliferated is because it would be very difficult to make it work well. If it would naturally sound good, there would be people doing it with some success. Classic rock style guitar works good in a rock format, not so much with orchestral music. If it was a good idea composers would be all over this. The fact there are so few successful pieces of music that use electric guitar solos over an orchestra should be an indicator that this is not the most fertile ground for creating good music. It is like saying 'why don't more people mix ice cream with Chinese food and create these new dishes, I mean ice cream is amazing, and Chinese food is delicious, clearly by adding the two one could create some new excellent meals." 

Sure there might be some chef who is a genius that could make these ingredients work together, but why bother with such a task? The ingredients are good on their own, but not highly compatible together.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> The problem is either:
> 
> Easily Solvable
> 
> ...


Go for easily solvable .


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

norman bates said:


> now I get what you're looking for. i think you mean the sound of a guitar with a lot of sustain that usually comes with distortion (even if today it's possible to have it also in different ways). Anyway the two videos of Sinfonity (who you should check out more, since they play a lot of classical music) and Daniele Gottardo go in that direction, the same kind of sound used by Gilmour on Comfortably numb, altough maybe the virtuosistic nature of the two pieces put more emphasis on speed than very long notes.
> I mentioned before the collaboration between the classical composer David Bedford and Mike Oldfield:
> 
> 
> ...


This comes the closest to what I have in my head, and I also like it very much: Thank You!

Two other thoughts:

A) I don't feel that "distortion" is a valid term for the sorts of sounds that can be, and often are, generated by Rock musicians as/when they play a modern electric guitar--the instrument is capable of producing a whole range of sounds, it is amazingly versatile, so, rather than calling some of those sounds "distortion", (in what sense are they distortion, in 2019?) why not just refer to the sounds produced (capable of being produced) by a modern electric guitar? Perhaps it was legit to speak of distortion in Jimi's day, but that day was 50 years ago. Those sounds are now in every serious Rock guitarist's toolkit.

B) Two reasons why contemporary composers may not have turned to the electric guitar in the sense that I theorize earlier composers might have, had they access to the instrument, are that today's composers are just not into that sort of music any more--those gods are dead. Second, just as there is antipathy toward Rock on the part of many here at TC, there may be the same antipathy among today's composers, perhaps augmented by fear that their CM careers might be dead-ended if they messed around with the electric guitar in an orchestral setting.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm talking about distortion because you said you weren't interested in the plucky, brief sound that is so typical of the guitar. And you could have that even after processing the sound with many effects.
And distortion is the base of very different sounds, from the more conventional styles like the last example I've posted to Comfortably numb, there are also much less obvious uses like






or






but technically it's still distortion.
That said, I agree the arsenal of sounds available to an electric guitarist today is mindblowing, breath controllers, sustainers, parametric equalizers, all those incredible electroharmonix effects... it's certainly strange that even outside the guitar effects aren't widely used by classical composers.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

> norman bates: "I'm talking about distortion because you said you weren't interested in the plucky, brief sound that is so typical of the guitar. And you could have that even after processing the sound with many effects.
> And distortion is the base of very different sounds, from the more conventional styles like the last example I've posted to Comfortably numb, there are also much less obvious uses like [examples] but technically it's still distortion."


OK, it's distortion . But question: is sticking a mute into the bell of a trumpet distortion? Sticking your hand into the bell of a French horn? If so, count me in. But that's a small point, what we call it, and not central to my hypotheses, and I will stand corrected. Regarding the plucking of guitars in this context, it's not that I'm not interested, it's that I'm less interested; I see (hear) an imagined composer using as many of the sounds of a guitar as s/he chooses, just like a violin is often heard _pizzicato_ in cadenzas or wherever. Rather, it's that few of the offered samples showed off the legato possibilities of the modern electric guitar--almost as if, in an imagined CM context, such legato possibilities were suddenly un-imaginable. No, plucking is fine, but let's not forget what it is about MEG that makes it so expressive. Steve Hackett's guitar solo in Genesis' _Firth of Fifth_ shows us the way; it's that quality I seek to focus on, moreso than plucking.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Great examples of singing sustain on electric guitar.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)




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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

> Starthower: "Great examples of singing sustain on electric guitar."


Sustain! That's just the term I was looking for. You nailed it.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> OK, it's distortion . But question: is sticking a mute into the bell of a trumpet distortion? Sticking your hand into the bell of a French horn?


no, I would not call at all a mute in a trumpet distortion. That is more a filter that (I think) makes certain harmonics less audible. A distortion on the other hand tends to transform the sound and it also emphasize the harmonics, that I guess it's what helps the sound to have more sustain (another way used is the use of compression) that's why with a distortion guitarists are able to make those very high penetrating notes, the so called "pinch harmonics", that with a clean sound would be barely audible.
I'm not sure about the French horn because I'm very ignorant about it, I thought the hand in the bell is used for intonation more than a mute, but I'm not sure.



Strange Magic said:


> If so, count me in. But that's a small point, what we call it, and not central to my hypotheses, and I will stand corrected. Regarding the plucking of guitars in this context, it's not that I'm not interested, it's that I'm less interested; I see (hear) an imagined composer using as many of the sounds of a guitar as s/he chooses, just like a violin is often heard _pizzicato_ in cadenzas or wherever. Rather, it's that few of the offered samples showed off the legato possibilities of the modern electric guitar--almost as if, in an imagined CM context, such legato possibilities were suddenly un-imaginable. No, plucking is fine, but let's not forget what it is about MEG that makes it so expressive. Steve Hackett's guitar solo in Genesis' _Firth of Fifth_ shows us the way; it's that quality I seek to focus on, moreso than plucking.


To me the most interesting thing I've heard so far to produce long sounds with a guitar is the breath controller used with the Moog guitar (the ultimate guitar for sustain). There was also a great video on youtube showing its possibilities but sadly it's not there anymore. What's really great about it is that it maked the guitarist able to change the dynamics of the sound with the accuracy of a wind or a violin player, something that even a volume pedal can't do. And it can do it also with chords, that is something that opens a lot of possibilities to the instrument.
The ebow also is good for that (I have one) but it has much more limitations due to the technical difficulties it presents.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Sustain! That's just the term I was looking for. You nailed it.


Singing guitar! Jeff Beck yes! I like his Nessun Dorma  "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... You could go and have a bite an'...aaaaaaaaa...you'd still be hearin' that one." (Spinal Tap)


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

The guitar is so intimately touch-sensitive . It's trans-amplification may exalt erotica , surfing waves of lush symphonia .


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> The guitar is so intimately touch-sensitive . It's trans-amplification may exalt erotica , surfing waves of lush symphonia .


Must we sexualize EVERYTHING?


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

The guitar is so intimately hands-on . Remember to breathe .


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I'm late to the posting because, as an acoustic player, I have a slightly different take on the OP and I wanted to think about it.

Plagency- like the sound one can get from a cello, the most plagenic or all the plegenadelic instruments. And the guitar is like that because it takes up pretty much the same range as a cello, slightly less, but in the same placement on a grand staff. A good way to check to see if you want to buy a classical guitar is to play the lower strings on the upper frets with vibrato and make the instrument sound like a cello. The more it has that sweet sound, the more it becomes a potential instrument that you would like to buy. Just one test I know, but a *real* important one.

As for the electric, I'm afraid the vast majority of the solo playing on the instrument in rock has been monophonic, thus limiting the true potential of the instrument. (Yes, I know there are exceptions.)

So, if we are fantasizing about Brahms writing for the electric guitar, then knowing how much the master loved the close canon and fughetta, it's not hard to imagine some monster piece of counterpoint befitting of one of the world's most polyphonic instruments - and so unlike the vast majority of rock. (For the augmented sixths too, but that's another discussion.)

That's my story and I'm sticking with it!:guitar:


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

I like this topic because for me it is actually a frustration that the elecrtic guitar is ignored by contemporary composers. Yes, al lot of them use electric guitar but for some reason their contribution must always be inaudible... they sure don't sound as exciting or 'plangent' as they sound in rock music. For sure, the guitar in some way, like the lute, has always been the instrument of choice for accompany by singers (I remember that even Don Giovanni in Mozart's opera takes a lute to accompany himself when he sings a song) and I think the violin or cello has the same kind of raw and melancholic sound like the rock guitar (so I think the step from listening to Jimi Hendrix to a violin concerto is quite small). Perhaps that's why composers think the sound is redundant. Yet I don't understand why composers do not experiment with the use of an electric guitar in their compositions.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> OK, it's distortion . But question: is sticking a mute into the bell of a trumpet distortion? Sticking your hand into the bell of a French horn? If so, count me in. But that's a small point, what we call it, and not central to my hypotheses, and I will stand corrected. Regarding the plucking of guitars in this context, it's not that I'm not interested, it's that I'm less interested; I see (hear) an imagined composer using as many of the sounds of a guitar as s/he chooses, just like a violin is often heard _pizzicato_ in cadenzas or wherever. Rather, it's that few of the offered samples showed off the legato possibilities of the modern electric guitar--almost as if, in an imagined CM context, such legato possibilities were suddenly un-imaginable. No, plucking is fine, but let's not forget what it is about MEG that makes it so expressive. Steve Hackett's guitar solo in Genesis' _Firth of Fifth_ shows us the way; it's that quality I seek to focus on, moreso than plucking.


Guitar "distortion" is called "distortion" for a good reason: it's the amplifier doing it, and it is legitimately and correctly called "amplifier distortion." Now, let's call the whole thing off.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Guitar "distortion" is called "distortion" for a good reason: it's the amplifier doing it, and it is legitimately and correctly called "amplifier distortion." Now, let's call the whole thing off.


Happy to, especially as whether it's distortion or not is not central to my hypothesis .


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

Perhaps the reason you don't hear a loud electric guitar or any other loud sounds in classical music is this. As Roger Scruton once said: pop music is something you hear, classical music is something tou listen to. That's why pop music must be loud for you must hear it. Classical music must not be loud for you must listen to it.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Another dream sequence: We know that such genres as the Blues and C&W rather easily transitioned, at least in part, from acoustic guitar to amplified and then modern electric guitar. We also know that other more purist traditions never went very far in accepting the instrument--we recall the story of Pete Seeger, axe in hand, threatening to cut the cable to Bob Dylan's guitar at the Newport Folk Festival. And the minute flamenco cante accompaniment goes to electric guitar, well then the world (my world) trembles on the lip of the abyss. But imagine a skilled MEG performer also versed in classical music and music education, and having a powerful, compelling personality a la a Leonard Bernstein--I say, imagine such a person at Julliard or Curtis firmly installed on the faculty and offering classes on MEG performance, with the emphasis on incorporating such into CM. The history of the saxophone, revisited. All kinds of social and cultural barriers to be overcome, surely, and perhaps the gulf is too great. But a boy (or girl) can dream of the musical possibilities.....


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Bach would likely have kicked, shoved, and elbowed his way to the front of the line to be first to try out the new instrument.


or maybe not... ever wondered why no Bach's are born these days?

because it's not a matter of inventing something, but that of creating a environment for inventions to be utilised properly.

you can't produce masterpieces without academies behind the entire process in the first place.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> or maybe not... ever wondered why no Bach's are born these days?
> 
> because it's not a matter of inventing something, but that of creating a environment for inventions to be utilised properly.
> 
> you can't produce masterpieces without academies behind the entire process in the first place.


Not sure I buy the premise. The piano can be seen as an "invention", but one that was easily understood as (merely) a development of an already familiar instrument/keyboard/technology. Ditto with the MEG: it's a guitar--certainly a super-duper guitar--but still a guitar. So I see Bach, wig in disarray, having heard of this new-fangled Frankenstein clavier, wanting to get his hands on one.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> The piano can be seen as an "invention", but one that was easily understood as (merely) a development of an already familiar instrument/keyboard/technology.


invention as such is not the point here, *utilisation* is.



Strange Magic said:


> Ditto with the MEG: it's a guitar--certainly a super-duper guitar--but still a guitar. So I see Bach, wig in disarray, having heard of this new-fangled Frankenstein clavier, wanting to get his hands on one.


wigs or not, you can't be Bach just because they have invented yet another music gadget.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Agamemnon said:


> Perhaps the reason you don't hear a loud electric guitar or any other loud sounds in classical music is this. As Roger Scruton once said: pop music is something you hear, classical music is something tou listen to. That's why pop music must be loud for you must hear it. Classical music must not be loud for you must listen to it.


I think that you're post shows just that you dislike pop music, but:

1. you hear a lot of loud sounds in classical music. Actually since the huge use of dynamics for a lot of pieces it's impossible to hear the music at a low sound. Because in a symphony where you have ppp and fff you have to set the volume to be able to hear those ppp, that means that the fff are extremely loud.
And there are classical pieces that are just loud (like Jon Leif's Hekla).

2. An electric guitar is a instrument, it's not a genre. Pianos, violins, cellos, clarinets, harpsichords and basically every orchestra instrument have been used in pop music. 
And at the same time electric guitars have been used to make jazz and classical music.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

norman bates said:


> you hear a lot of loud sounds in classical music. Actually since the huge use of dynamics for a lot of pieces it's impossible to hear the music at a low sound. Because in a symphony where you have ppp and fff you have to set the volume to be able to hear those ppp, that means that the fff are extremely loud.


that's right, classical is the most extreme music ever composed, and no need to go further than Mozart to realise this, why on earth rock, pop, jazz and other ludicrous fakes?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> that's right, classical is the most extreme music ever composed, and no need to go further than Mozart to realise this, why on earth rock, pop, jazz and other ludicrous fakes?


Besides the fakes rock, pop, and jazz, can you list for us the other fakes? The Blues, perhaps? Broadway musical song? Perhaps Russian folk tunes? And, please, don't hold back!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Besides the fakes rock, pop, and jazz, can you list for us the other fakes? The Blues, perhaps? Broadway musical song? Perhaps Russian folk tunes?


sure these go out the window.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> that's right, classical is the most extreme music ever composed, and no need to go further than Mozart to realise this, why on earth rock, pop, jazz and other ludicrous fakes?


"fakes"? wow, just open your ears. You're not showing superior taste, you're just showing your limitations as a listener.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

norman bates said:


> you're just showing your limitations as a listener


don't be so naive, bro.

i was initially a rock and pop fan, listened to a lot of it.

i myself a electric guitar player, obssessed with how to make the instrument sound more expressive etc.

i regect these fakes on the ground of knowing them too well, not because of never hearing the stuff.

classical fans, who never listened to rock/pop/jazz, are way more tolerant, as you might guess.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I find that classical fans who are not into other genres possess some of the least tolerant ears on the face of the planet, for what it's worth.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> classical fans who are not into other genres possess some of the least tolerant ears


and that is me too, i despise fake genres, but the reason isn't not knowing them well, of course.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

Did I miss where plangent/plangency was defined?

I agree that the electric guitar was transformational, but not in its mournfulness - only in its loudness.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> the electric guitar was transformational, but not in its mournfulness


well, take for example the soundtrack from Once Upon A Time In The West, this dirge-like piece:










but Morricone did it for a reason; the oboe, clarinet or bassoon would not convey the message, so he went with the electric guitar as the only suitable choice to portray the gang in the movie, not to impose some new politics in music on the audience. Morricone is justified in that, and note how he ascribed each instrument to each character and theme in the movie; its entirely made by the music, even though the screenplay and acting are lame.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> don't be so naive, bro.
> 
> i was initially a rock and pop fan, listened to a lot of it.
> 
> ...


it's impossible to be more naive than someone who thinks that genres as jazz and popular music are "fakes" (fakes of what? Those genres are not even trying to be a copy of classical music).
If someone doesn't recognize the big value of a lot of popular music and jazz music, he's not grown up as a listener, he simply doesn't understand it ( Hey, personally I don't understand Mozart, for my ears he's too much simple, but we can't understand everything)
Then sure, there's a huge amount of trash and terrible music, but that's obvious.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

norman bates said:


> fakes of what?


fakes of art, that is.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> fakes of art, that is.


than why a composer like Ligeti thought that Thelonious Monk or Bill Evans were geniuses for instance?


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Back on topic.

Does the OP know what has the composer Pierluigi Billone recently done with the electric guitar?










OM. ON (2015)
for two E Guitars
Instrumentation: 2 Electric Guitars
World Premiere: 20 November 2015
Yaron Deutsch Electric Guitar
Tom Pauwels Electric Guitar
Bludenzer Tage zeitgemäßer Musik
Bludenz, Austria
Duration: 74'












Sgorgo N (2013)
for Electric Guitar
Instrumentation: Electric Guitar
World Premiere: 18 February 2015
Yaron Deutsch Electric Guitar
Impuls
Graz, Austria
Duration: 20'

Sgorgo oO (2013)
for Electric Guitar
Instrumentation: Electric Guitar
World Premiere: 2016
Yaron Deutsch Electric Guitar
Wien Modern
Vienna, Austria
Duration: 20'

Sgorgo Y (2012)
for Electric Guitar
Instrumentation: Electric Guitar
World Premiere: 02 June 2014
Yaron Deutsch Electric Guitar
Open Music / Museum der Wahrnehmung
Graz, Austria
Duration: 21'


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Did I miss where plangent/plangency was defined?
> 
> I agree that the electric guitar was transformational, but not in its mournfulness - only in its loudness.


If one googles the various definitions available, the average for "plangent" recognizes both loudness and melancholy as chief defining characteristics, and I'm good with that. If it helps, I once read a fulsomely positive review of a Bernstein performance of the Tchaikovsky 6th where the reviewer extolled Lenny's plangent reading of the symphony. I am also content with the two examples--Gilmour's _Comfortably Numb_ solo and Hackett's _Firth of Fifth_ solo--as archetypes of MEG plangency in a Rock context. I am also content with picturing the MEG as a mutated, even more versatile stand-in for the violin in a hypothetical "violin"--read: MEG--concerto by most probably a Russian (not named Zhdanov!) composer of the late 19th-early 20th century.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

I was enjoying this discussion until it morphed into pseudo political nonsense.

What do you all think of David Torn's innovative approach on the electric guitar?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Red Terror said:


> I was enjoying this discussion until it morphed into pseudo political nonsense.
> 
> What do you all think of David Torn's innovative approach on the electric guitar?


He's one of my favorite guitarists. Since he's quite active on internet, I said to him that his work on the guitar sometimes reminds me of the trumpet of Jon Hassell, and he told me that he's in fact an inspiration for him.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I ordered Torn's classic, Cloud About Mercury last week. ECM is re-issuing 50 albums for their 50th anniversary and this is one of them. I also have his more recent album Prezens with Tim Berne.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Red Terror said:


> I was enjoying this discussion until it morphed into pseudo political nonsense.
> 
> What do you all think of David Torn's innovative approach on the electric guitar?


I liked this a lot, though Mauritanian musicians have been making similar music on the electric guitar for quite a while. It reminded me of raga sitar, Gharnati/Malhun and Mauritanian music, and a touch of early Hovhaness, especially in the combination of drone background with the solo guitar in the foreground.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Red Terror said:


> What do you all think of David Torn's innovative approach on the electric guitar?


The visual presentation is very cool here, the guitar playing is decent, the electronic sounds I didn't like at all.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I ordered Torn's classic, Cloud About Mercury last week. ECM is re-issuing 50 albums for their 50th anniversary and this is one of them. I also have his more recent album Prezens with Tim Berne.


great album.
Best laid plans is great too






this is a good example of what I was saying about him trying to make with a guitar what Jon Hassell (or even Miles Davis) were doing with the trumpet


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Torn played on Bowie's Heathen album.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Interesting thread in which one question leads to others...

I'm not entirely certain that the "electric guitar" in and of itself is "plangent" when separated from the playing techniques and sound modification (reverb, sustain, distortion, overdrive) developed during the 75 plus years which make up the EG's tradition in which a primary jazz/blues influence coupled with secondary folk/country elements defines the sound of what we would consider to be the quintessential "electric guitar".

That being said... I would hypothesize that the OP is right in thinking that the electric guitar's ability to both play chords and single notes (even without the influences of the 20th century) would have led to the development of an entirely unique repertoire in which composers would have seen the "amplified guitar" as an instrument which was in essence a cross between both the classical guitar and the violin - similar yet separate and thus requiring compositions which took advantage of the sonic abilities which it would supercede. 

Sonatas and concertos would have been written which reflect the distinct capabilities of this "amplified guitar" - sonatas and concertos which neither the classical guitar nor the violin could have played as intended as the limitation of each would have become manifest.

Who know? - Perhaps one of the "Russian Five" (probably Mussorgsky) would have written "Concerto for Amplified Guitar and Orchestra - subtitled - "Damn right, I've got the blues, comrade, you would too if you lived in Russia"...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No need to wonder what dead composers might have done.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

> Frank F. Sinatra: "I'm not entirely certain that the "electric guitar" in and of itself is "plangent" when separated from the playing techniques and sound modification (reverb, sustain, distortion, overdrive) developed during the 75 plus years which make up the EG's tradition in which a primary jazz/blues influence coupled with secondary folk/country elements defines the sound of what we would consider to be the quintessential "electric guitar".


I agree entirely that the plangency of the electric guitar, and the uses to which I hypothesized the MEG could have been put, are the result of those playing techniques and sound modifications that you list. Just an ordinary amplified guitar strumming or plucking away is not what I/we have been talking about.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I agree entirely that the plangency of the electric guitar, and the uses to which I hypothesized the MEG could have been put, are the result of those playing techniques and sound modifications that you list. Just an ordinary amplified guitar strumming or plucking away is not what I/we have been talking about.


But I think that scenario actually would work - an ordinary amplified guitar stripped of the tradition which was initially developed as an extension of the classical guitar would eventually develop into something that could be quite extraordinary. Guitar players of the day (meaning as in your example late 19th/early 20th centuries) would have devised and developed their own unique playing techniques and sound modifications - perhaps different, perhaps the same - yet the instrument would have continued to evolve and as it did composers would eventually envision it as a unique instrument separate from both the guitar and the violin.

At some point in time the amplified guitar version of a player like Niccolò Paganini shows up and the potential of this instrument makes itself manifest and changes how composers write for this particular instrument. I think that the resultant repertoire would be quite extraordinary as it would represent a natural evolution of the classical guitar which now has the capability of the extended sustain that the violin possesses.

"An ordinary amplified guitar strumming or plucking away" is as capable of being transformative as the model that you initially suggested as players would continue to experiment and composers would respond to those experiments by writing music that continued to expand and elaborate upon the previous boundaries that were established. The results may have greatly exceeded what we now have as part of the modern electric guitar repertoire as the guitarists of the late 19th/early 20th centuries would have been substantially better trained than those that arose from the current tradition almost none of whom can actually read a score.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The assumption that almost none of today's guitarists can read a score is false. And what ifs about the past are rather pointless.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

starthrower said:


> The assumption that almost none of today's guitarists can read a score is false. And what ifs about the past are rather pointless.


No, it isn't false and "what ifs" about the past make for entertaining threads.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> No, it isn't false


Yes, it is false. Since the late 60s umpteen thousands of guitarists have graduated from music universities with degrees in music and composition. They can read a score.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> Look, Starsky, why not just tell everyone that you have your nose out of joint because I didn't try to poach you? - :lol:
> 
> And feel free to click on the "Report Post" - it was worth it and I would do it again, punk.


I don't know what you're talking about? But go ahead with your fantasies.


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## Frank Freaking Sinatra (Dec 6, 2018)

starthrower said:


> Yes, it is false. Since the late 60s umpteen thousands of guitarists have graduated from music universities with degrees in music and composition. They can read a score.


And no one cares because they're not anyone that anyone but you cares about... Your fondness for the deservedly obscure is well-documented - you abhor anyone or anything that has even the slightest trace of familiarity.

Try to number the guitarists on this list of Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time list - by my count there isn't 10 who can read and play off of a score.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...t-guitarists-153675/lindsey-buckingham-39147/


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks for telling me so much about myself. You've been a member here for a whole two months and you know so much. But once again your assumptions are false. 

And why would anyone point to a list of rock guitarists from Rolling Stone when discussing musical literacy? I'm not interested in arguing with you. This is not why Strange Magic started this thread. Have a good day, Sinatra!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Frank Freaking Sinatra said:


> And no one cares because they're not anyone that anyone but you cares about... Your fondness for the deservedly obscure is well-documented - you abhor anyone or anything that has even the slightest trace of familiarity.
> 
> Try to number the guitarists on this list of Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time list - by my count there isn't 10 who can read and play off of a score.
> 
> https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...t-guitarists-153675/lindsey-buckingham-39147/


Rolling stone lists aren't a good demonstration of your argument.
Actually the technical level on the guitar (actually any kind of guitar) has never been so high. 
And there are a huge amount of guitarists who are perfectly able to read a score.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I was watching some videos of the Gizmotron and I remembered this thread


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Bach can sound quite good on the electric guitar.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Some great "plangency" in the solos here for sure.






And here.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I must laugh whenever I see _Maggot Brain. _I received this album as a birthday present from a very eccentric auntie. The most important fact here being that I was six or seven years old at the time and the album was already old.

For some reason I got the album and the single. Pater played it once and decided that it was best put in his wardrobe until I could listen to it properly.

Personally I think it's an exceptionally boring and self-indulgent sounding track.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

That's too bad. For me it's a complete masterpiece. Different strokes, I guess.


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