# Is Contemporary "Classical" Music Reconnecting With Pop?



## timothyjuddviolin (Nov 1, 2011)

Before the serialism of the mid-twentieth century, concert music and popular music were much closer together- think Dvorak's connect to folk songs. Now, they seem to be reconnecting.

You could make the argument that Steve Reich and the other minimalists of his generation helped to start this process. Now we have composers like Ólafur Arnalds and Nico Muhly who live in both worlds.

Do you agree that "classical" and pop are reuniting. What are your favorite pieces/composers who live in both worlds?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I wouldn't know if classical and pop are reconnecting, but there does seem to be a new found enthusiasm in classical music for writing actual tunes. Alas, after half a century of discordant noise, it is probably too late now - audiences have fled.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I do feel today's composers are - now more than ever - striving to achieve a certain solidarity with popular music. That being said, I am in no mood to condemn the "discordant noise" that has produced some of the most profound masterpieces in all of classical music.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Do you mean that pop music Madona, GaGa, Lord, Biber etc is becoming associated with modern classical music ? well I wouldn’t be surprised as some modern classical that I have heard is about on the same level but it will never be associated with the classical that most of us love and enjoy. I don’t think folk music should be confused with modern pop. 
If this happens (I don’t believe it ever will) then that’s all we need to finally send classical to oblivion.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

No. .


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I'd say it's not so much that "classical" and "popular" are reuniting but that there's a segment of contemporary classical that's uninterested in having boundaries between types of music, and it's being met by an "arty" segment of popular music. A very good thing in my opinion.

Here, this will brighten up everyone's Saturday...


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra is doing a concert next month that includes "family friendly hip-hop narration" for Carnival of the Animals:

https://www.bsomusic.org/calendar/events/2017-2018-events/carnival-of-the-animals/

It may be harmless, but it certainly isn't something for me.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2018)

Walls exist only if one wants them to.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

yes, look at this travesty


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

timothyjuddviolin said:


> Do you agree that "classical" and pop are reuniting?


That was happening in the '60s. I remember things like Virgil Fox giving an organ recital at Fillmore East and the Beatles sticking classical things into their music (the beginning of Blackbird is based on a piece for lute by Bach). After the '60s, that kind of thing died down. I do feel that the boundaries are blurring again, especially with computer music-writing software allowing nonclassical musicians to dabble into the classical genre. Recently Kip Winger, who is some kind of rock star, had his Conversations with Nijinsky performed with the Nashville Symphony.

It seems that younger conservatory/classically trained musicians are comfortable both in the rock and classical world, so they don't see the dichotomy between high and low art that there once was. I have a friend who plays violin classically and also subs in with his friend's prog rock band whenever he's called for, and it's not a jarring contrast for him.

Having said that, I haven't had any of these crossover composers stick in my head besides being a passing novelty, so I can't claim to having any favorites. Personally, I like my classical to be classical and my jazz/pop/soul/R&B/rock to be jazz/pop/rock/soul/R&B.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

dogen said:


> Walls exist only if one wants them to.


It is 8 degrees F outside today. I am grateful for my walls (and my roof, and the furnace that allows me to heat the space that they enclose).


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> .
> It seems that younger conservatory/classically trained musicians are comfortable both in the rock and classical world, so they don't see the dichotomy between high and low art that there once was. I have a friend who plays violin classically and also subs in with his friend's prog rock band whenever he's called for, and it's not a jarring contrast for him.


Exactly. A large number of the baby boomer composers lived through the classic ages of rock and pop and it has had its influence - in both directions. About 40-50% of the people I have played alongside from youth ensembles when I was a youth to now have been active in jazz, funk or rock/pop alongside strictly classical performance.

That is engaging in separate areas simultaneously, but there is also enough modern music showing the influence of popular idioms or pop music employing classical idioms. Like you I see and hear them then they go out of my head.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2018)

JAS said:


> It is 8 degrees F outside today. I am grateful for my walls (and my roof, and the furnace that allows me to heat the space that they enclose).


I'd want those walls too!


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2018)

Personally, I think it's a good thing in principle that any creator feels able to tap into whatever musical areas seem appropriate at the time. Classical composers have often used folk songs as a basis or inspiration for works, of course. But what listeners may make of the end product is another matter. I can't remember which composer it is (maybe more than one, probably American) but whenever I've heard classical music incorporating jazz elements, as something of an ex-jazz head, I found it fairly cringeworthy. In fact one such has just popped into my head: Schnittke - Symphony no. 1... dear God...


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

dogen said:


> I can't remember which composer it is (maybe more than one, probably American) but whenever I've heard classical music incorporating jazz elements, as something of an ex-jazz head, I found it fairly cringeworthy. In fact one such has just popped into my head: Schnittke - Symphony no. 1... dear God...


And don't get me started on Beethoven's 32nd Piano Sonata. But yeah, that Schnittke 1 is insane.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

brianvds said:


> I wouldn't know if classical and pop are reconnecting, but there does seem to be a new found enthusiasm in classical music for writing actual tunes. Alas, after half a century of discordant noise, it is probably too late now - audiences have fled.


That 'tuneless discordant noise' is what attracted me to classical in the first place. All that came previously sounded trite, predictable and cliche to my 20th century ears.

The crossover has been happening in the prog world for decades.

Leader (Joris Vanvinckenroye) of the Belgium avant-prog band, Aranis, is a graduate of Royal Flemish Conservatoire in Antwerp.

Another avant-prog band, Thinking Plague, has several members that have degrees in classical composition.

The violinist from the Italian band, Deus ex Machina, has 'day job' playing in major Italian orchestras.

Chicago based new music ensemble, the Eighth Blackbird, despiste playing compositions by various contemporary composers, sound very much like they could be classified as an avant-prog band, also.

The list goes on...

Although, I am not sure how much of this particular subgenre of 'prog rock' can really be considered pop music.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I agree with you, Simon. I tried to explain in another thread that I find unfortunate that most people encounter classical music through Mozart or Beethoven. They were no doubt great composers, but they do not sound very modern and most of their works sound same. I too think that 20th century classical music is much more varied and intersting that the music from classical period or Baroque. 
I know a lot of people who do not listen to classical music but listen to sountracks. And many soundtracks are orchestral pieces, hence close to classical. This is in my opinion the closest contact between classical and pop and the best way to attract people to classical. Show them something that sounds like soundtracks to lure them in. Progressive rock is for sure inspired by classical music but it is niche music, not mainstream. Just look at youtube at the number of views under different music types.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Jacck said:


> I agree with you, Simon. I tried to explain in another thread that I find unfortunate that most people encounter classical music through Mozart or Beethoven. They were no doubt great composers, but they do not sound very modern and most of their works sound same. I too think that 20th century classical music is much more varied and intersting that the music from classical period or Baroque.
> I know a lot of people who do not listen to classical music but listen to sountracks. And many soundtracks are orchestral pieces, hence close to classical. This is in my opinion the closest contact between classical and pop and the best way to attract people to classical. Show them something that sounds like soundtracks to lure them in. Progressive rock is for sure inspired by classical music but it is niche music, not mainstream. Just look at youtube at the number of views under different music types.


If Mozart, Beethoven, Faure , Elgar, Sibelius etc etc sound the same I wonder how much you have heard, soundtracks are not classical music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Dan Ante said:


> If Mozart, Beethoven, Faure , Elgar, Sibelius etc etc sound the same I wonder how much you have heard, *soundtracks are not classical music*.


It depends what the era is and who the composer is. I certainly would make a strong connection between the music of the great film composers like Herrmann, Alex North, Rozsa etc and classical music. Herrmann was a friend of Malcolm Arnold and there is a bit of overlap in several of their works; which may be surprising for those who only think of Arnold as a producer of English Dances.
Surely Ennio Morricone's score for the spaghetti westerns is 'art music' _and_ popular. He is a respected musician and composer who easily bridges both worlds.

Of course there is also Hans Zimmer, but I file that under 'Muzak'.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> It depends what the era is and who the composer is. I certainly would make a strong connection between the music of the great film composers like Herrmann, Alex North, Rozsa etc and classical music. Herrmann was a friend of Malcolm Arnold and there is a bit of overlap in several of their works; which may be surprising for those who only think of Arnold as a producer of English Dances.
> Surely Ennio Morricone's score for the spaghetti westerns is 'art music' _and_ popular. He is a respected musician and composer who easily bridges both worlds.
> 
> Of course there is also Hans Zimmer, but I file that under 'Muzak'.


Ah but jacck said"_I know a lot of people who do not listen to classical music but listen to sountracks. And many soundtracks are orchestral pieces, hence close to classical_"
Just because a piece of music is orchestral does not make it classical


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Dan Ante said:


> Ah but jacck said"_I know a lot of people who do not listen to classical music but listen to sountracks. And many soundtracks are orchestral pieces, hence close to classical_"
> Just because a piece of music is orchestral does not make it classical


So what makes anything 'classical' if it isn't in 18th century Europe? The musical idiom of classic film music is inherited from orchestral art-music, 'classical music' if you will.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

eugene, there is probably no strict definition of what constitutes classical music
http://lukemuehlhauser.com/how-to-fall-in-love-with-modern-classical-music-4/
in the link some professor asks what makes Philip Glass classical and not John Williams and his movie scores? Because JW sounds more classical than Glass.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> So what makes anything 'classical' if it isn't in 18th century Europe? The musical idiom of classic film music is inherited from orchestral art-music, 'classical music' if you will.


So you want to discuss the definition of classical music, that really should be a thread of its own so I am not going into that minefield however in general it covers many period from early to modern and usually follows certain accepted forms such as 'Sonata form' as an example, but just because someone is playing a classical piece of music such as J S Bach does no make the performance a classical one for example played as jazz,






So no matter what is being played as a sound track unless it is played in the accepted classical way it is not classical.
but you know this.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Not contemporary classical music, but sometimes Contemporary and Classical can happily meet:











I like both performances. Imaginative, fun, and well done. Bravo! :tiphat:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

brianvds said:


> I wouldn't know if classical and pop are reconnecting, but there does seem to be a new found enthusiasm in classical music for writing actual tunes. Alas, after half a century of discordant noise, it is probably too late now - audiences have fled.


There have always been classical composers writing actual tunes.
As an example when Penderecki changed style in the seventies were many of the neoclassical composers active in the twenties and thirties still alive and writing music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Dan Ante said:


> So you want to discuss the definition of classical music, that really should be a thread of its own so I am not going into that minefield however in general it covers many period from early to modern and usually follows certain accepted forms such as 'Sonata form' as an example, but just because someone is playing a classical piece of music such as J S Bach does no make the performance a classical one for example played as jazz,
> 
> So no matter what is being played as a sound track unless it is played in the accepted classical way it is not classical.
> but you know this.


Well, I already know what the generally accepted definitions and parameters are, but this does not solve the problem. The majority of the classic film composers were also composers of art-music and their scores had music which followed classical forms.

Let us go back to Herrmann, we see that his scores contain pieces of music employing sonata form (which is already very ubiquitous as a construction methodology, even in jazz composition: enunciation of two subjects, development and recapitulation... even some pop music does this).

Many of the composers of old Hollywood up to around the 1970s, followed a tradition laid down by the rules and practices of art-music. It was continually fed by arrivals from Europe of fleeing composers bringing variations of classical tradition, with a large injection from Wagner's leitmotif method and his style of orchestration. This is clear to see in the way it has been easy to have either an original score or accept a temp-track consisting of pieces chosen from the art-music world.

We can listen to David Lean's use of Rach's 2nd in _Brief Encounter_ and it simply fits the model for the sort of music that was already in use in film by that time. So that must mean the two had already intersected.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

The definition of classical music is absolutely arbitrary.
Why is the music from Star Trek not a classical music?




Why is the rhytmic music of Glass considered classical although it is much closer to African percussion music?


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2018)

Takemitsu composed scores for over 100 films. 

:tiphat:


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Well, I already know what the generally accepted definitions and parameters are, but this does not solve the problem. The majority of the classic film composers were also composers of art-music and their scores had music which followed classical forms.
> 
> Let us go back to Herrmann, we see that his scores contain pieces of music employing sonata form (which is already very ubiquitous as a construction methodology, even in jazz composition: enunciation of two subjects, development and recapitulation... even some pop music does this).
> 
> ...


If a piece of music is written for a film then that is what it is 'sound track music' no more no less


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2018)

Dan Ante said:


> If a piece of music is written for a film then that is what it is 'sound track music' no more no less


What do you say regarding Takemitsu? Shostakovich? Copland?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

dogen said:


> What do you say regarding Takemitsu? Shostakovich? Copland?


Coland's _Red Pony_...Bernstein's _On the Waterfront_...I could go on and on. In fact, John Williams's music, some of it, is increasingly popular with classical audiences. But hey, what do they know? :lol::lol::lol:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Dan Ante said:


> If a piece of music is written for a film then that is what it is 'sound track music' no more no less


Well clearly Rachmaninov's 2nd _wasn't_ written for Brief Encounter, it was written for the concert hall. So you seem to be suggesting that its use in the film turns it into nothing but a soundtrack, until it is played in a concert hall.
A soundtrack is what you get after the music editor has done the job of fitting the music supplied by a composer to the film's requirements.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Dan Ante said:


> So no matter what is being played as a sound track unless it is played in the accepted classical way it is not classical.
> but you know this.


And what is the 'acceptable classical way'? Composers like Handel made lots of different arrangements for their works to suit the performers available. The present obsession with HIP 'purity' would have left him amazed.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2018)

Glass has already been referred to; and he has composed many film scores. But that might just be baby music :devil:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I think there is a lot more of what some call "crossover" in classical music now than in the last century, especially prior to Elvis and the popular music breakout. Lara St. John, a violinist, authored an album some years back that was heralded for both its classical and crossover characteristics. There have been many others, of course, and more to come. 

There is also a large popular element to composer Michael Daugherty's music; he is something akin to Ferde Grofe, a 20th century composer whose music depicted certain Americanizations with names like the Grand Canyon and Mississippi suites. Though it is a traditional piece of classical music written in sonata form, there are many popular elements in Daugherty's "Metropolis" symphony, for example.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

One of the best cross-overs between classical and rock that I know of is the Moody Blues album Days Of Future Passed. It is a complete orchestra and it sounds great.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2018)

Jacck said:


> One of the best cross-overs between classical and rock that I know of is the Moody Blues album Days Of Future Passed. It is a complete orchestra and it sounds great.


Another band majorly crossing over is Univers Zero. Clearly influenced by 20th century chamber music. Their early albums are particularly "classical."


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

dogen said:


> Another band majorly crossing over is Univers Zero. Clearly influenced by 20th century chamber music. Their early albums are particularly "classical."


I'm a huge fan of Univers Zero.

There are quite a few other bands with the same influences. Most of the bands with 20th century influences tend to be categorized as 'avant prog'.

Off the top of my head:

Thinking Plague
Henry Cow 
Art Zoyd
Aranis (as I previously mentioned in this thread)
5UUs
Motor Totemist Guild
Far Corner
Kotebel

But I am not sure if any of these types of bands really qualify as 'Pop' music.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2018)

Simon Moon said:


> I'm a huge fan of Univers Zero.
> 
> There are quite a few other bands with the same influences. Most of the bands with 20th century influences tend to be categorized as 'avant prog'.
> 
> ...


I'm sure some Henry Cow would just _fill_ the dance floor.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Bryce Dessner, guitarist with The National, has been writing some enjoyable new classical, such as his _Music for Wood and Strings_, for So Percussion:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

dogen said:


> Takemitsu composed scores for over 100 films.
> 
> :tiphat:


Also Akira Ifukube and Ikuma Dan composed music to many films.
Ifukube is probably most famous for his music to Godzilla.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Bryce Dessner, guitarist with The National, has been writing some enjoyable new classical, such as his _Music for Wood and Strings_, for So Percussion:


Yeah, I was trying to remember this guy's name earlier.

Another person is Mason Bates.

He is a composer of classical, but also regularly performs electronic music and as a DJ.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

dogen said:


> What do you say regarding Takemitsu? Shostakovich? Copland?


Please give example if it goes against my comment.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

DavidA said:


> And what is the 'acceptable classical way'? Composers like Handel made lots of different arrangements for their works to suit the performers available. The present obsession with HIP 'purity' would have left him amazed.


What do you think? 
It is not as in the example that I gave of Bach, or for that matter any string quartet played on the mouth organ or Beethoven's 5th played by the MJQ.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

larold said:


> There is also a large popular element to composer Michael Daugherty's music; he is something akin to Ferde Grofe, a 20th century composer whose music depicted certain Americanizations with names like the Grand Canyon and Mississippi suites.


Interesting comparison. I have the Naxos boxset of Daughtery's music, and I haven't listened to it more than once. I also have the Naxos Grofe disc, and I haven't listened to that one more than once, either. I get the impression their music is geared more to grab an audience in a concert hall than to hold up with repeated listenings. If I'm missing something, I'd like to be educated; it bothers me that I have a brightly colored box set on the floor that I'm not listening to.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Well clearly Rachmaninov's 2nd _wasn't_ written for Brief Encounter, it was written for the concert hall. So you seem to be suggesting that its use in the film turns it into nothing but a soundtrack, until it is played in a concert hall.
> A soundtrack is what you get after the music editor has done the job of fitting the music supplied by a composer to the film's requirements.


Precisely it is a soundtrack of selected passages take form a classical work.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2018)

Dan Ante said:


> Please give example if it goes against my comment.


Takemitsu is considered to be a classical composer, he composed music specifically for films. To you, that is a soundtrack, no more no less...

Shostakovich is considered to be a classical composer, he composed music specifically for films. To you, that is a soundtrack, no more no less...

The music is the same, whether it is listened to in a cinema or a concert venue. The label that one ascribes to it is up to the individual. Does it have to be either/or; could it not be fully expressed as classical music composed in the first instance to be utilised as a film score?

It seems a pointless exercise to cite examples, given what has already been posted and given your opinion. You will presumably dismiss all such examples.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Another example: yMusic, a New York-based chamber group (string trio, flute, clarinet, trumpet). They've worked with upcoming composers like Caroline Shaw and Andrew Norman, as well as popular musicians like John Legend and Paul Simon.

Their 2017 album "First" was written by Ryan Lott of the band Son Lux, and they describe it as "an attempt to build a record of chamber music which emulates the flow and structure of a rock record: 11 tracks, 40 minutes, Side A/Side B."
And indeed, the video below is for the "first single" from the album:


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

dogen said:


> I'm sure some Henry Cow would just _fill_ the dance floor.


When I saw Henry Cow live (1973?) their sax player attempted just that. During the last number he jumped off stage, still playing his sax, and danced around the edge of the auditorium, hoping to lead a string of revellers behind him.

Sadly few, if any, joined him.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2018)

Dan Ante said:


> soundtracks are not classical music.


So if a piece of music that you had never heard before was played to you and you were asked to identify whether it was _either _soundtrack music _or _classical music, presumably you could answer this question?

And given that you can discriminate between the two, what criterion or criteria do you apply in order to determine which one of these two it is?


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

dogen said:


> Takemitsu is considered to be a classical composer, he composed music specifically for films. To you, that is a soundtrack, no more no less...
> 
> Shostakovich is considered to be a classical composer, he composed music specifically for films. To you, that is a soundtrack, no more no less...


Dogen. Re Tak and Schos they composed music specifically for a film so that is what it is "a sound track"


> The music is the same, whether it is listened to in a cinema or a concert venue. The label that one ascribes to it is up to the individual. Does it have to be either/or; could it not be fully expressed as classical music composed in the first instance to be utilised as a film score?


You can call it what you like but the fact remains 'it is what it is'
The label or category must meet the intent of purpose in this case the purpose was a sound track but could have been an advertising jingle or it could have been a symphony, chamber work or tone poem intended for concert performance by an orchestra, quartet etc.


dogen said:


> So if a piece of music that you had never heard before was played to you and you were asked to identify whether it was _either _soundtrack music _or _classical music, presumably you could answer this question?
> 
> And given that you can discriminate between the two, what criterion or criteria do you apply in order to determine which one of these two it is?


Fair enough, but don't stop at classical all I could say is I don't know this music but it sounds Classical or like dance music or like jazz etc etc but in the end it needs a home (category) so you would need to know what the work is


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2018)

Dan Ante said:


> Fair enough, but don't stop at classical all I could say is I don't know this music but it sounds Classical or like dance music or like jazz etc etc but in the end it needs a home (category) so you would need to know what the work is


I bought a Takemitsu CD and listened to it several times, thinking that I had purchased an album of various works of classical music. But then one day I bothered to read the liner notes and discovered some of the pieces were composed as film scores. I'd been duped! ("soundtracks are not classical music.")

For me, "in the end", is derived from the music itself; that is how I "know what the work is." Otherwise, how do I "know" _what _I am listening to? It would require being informed by a third party, which to me seems a little perverse, as if I cannot put faith in my own listening.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

dogen said:


> I bought a Takemitsu CD and listened to it several times, thinking that I had purchased an album of various works of classical music. But then one day I bothered to read the liner notes and discovered some of the pieces were composed as film scores. I'd been duped! ("soundtracks are not classical music.")


I always make sure I know what is on a CD before I buy it.


> For me, "in the end", is derived from the music itself; that is how I "know what the work is." Otherwise, how do I "know" _what _I am listening to? It would require being informed by a third party, which to me seems a little perverse, as if I cannot put faith in my own listening.


Well you did not know what was on the 'Takemitsu' CD but I am not familiar with that composer perhaps all his music sounds the same??
What is wrong with being informed by someone with more knowledge than yourself 
That's a very good way to learn.
As I have said before "The more you know the more you realise you don't know"


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, OK, viola da gamba and lute don't really signify _contemporary_ classical, but still, check this out!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> Well, OK, viola da gamba and lute don't really signify _contemporary_ classical, but still, check this out!
> 
> Yikes! This is a popular piece normally sung by someone with pop star power. It seems here to be, in a way, stripped of its musicality and infused with academicism.
> 
> ...


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

dogen said:


> For me, "in the end", is derived from the music itself; that is how I "know what the work is." Otherwise, how do I "know" _what _I am listening to? It would require being informed by a third party, which to me seems a little perverse, as if I cannot put faith in my own listening.





Dan Ante said:


> Well you did not know what was on the 'Takemitsu' CD but I am not familiar with that composer perhaps all his music sounds the same?? ... What is wrong with being informed by someone with more knowledge than yourself
> That's a very good way to learn. ..As I have said before "The more you know the more you realize you don't know"


That is not the point. (I suspect you know this.) The point is that there is some kind of illegitimacy in deciding whether you like a piece of music based on information outside music itself.

Kind of disliking a wine because you think you are supposed to, or liking it because of its critical reception on some wine website.

The music, in a pure perfect world, the music itself, or rather, the performance of the music, would do all the talking. Likely this not entirely possible.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

JeffD said:


> That is not the point. (I suspect you know this.) The point is that there is some kind of illegitimacy in deciding whether you like a piece of music based on information outside music itself.
> 
> Kind of disliking a wine because you think you are supposed to, or liking it because of its critical reception on some wine website.
> 
> The music, in a pure perfect world, the music itself, or rather, the performance of the music, would do all the talking. Likely this not entirely possible.


It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a piece of music, that is a personal choice. We are talking about categories.


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