# Brahms String Sextet no. 1 in B flat, Masterpiece?



## clavichorder

I do know if I've heard the work talked about much on TC. I hadn't been on the look out for discussion about it, because it is recently that I came across it. I heard it in concert and knew it was a piece I'd want to later listen to on recording as well. It is now a favorite, it seems to have layers of richness, and very solid construction. The 2nd mvt., which I had not heard before, instantly stood out to me in concert, and I tremendously enjoyed the finale as well. Upon going back, yep, the 2nd mvt, is indeed a rare slow movement gem, and I love that finale, and the whole piece is great.

Are there any others who love this work? I have yet to listen to the 2nd sextet, how is that one?


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## Ukko

Hmm. I'm sure that I've heard that music, and have it in my collection - can't remember a blessed thing about it.

I'm going to listen to it today, and then give you my opinion - after which the subject may safely be closed.


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## Art Rock

I prefer the second one,. although the first one is good as well. Here's what I wrote a few years ago in my blog:


String Sextet 1 in B-flat major (op.18, 1860)
My version: Raphael Ensemble (Hyperion, 1988, 34 min)
Right from the first notes, this luscious sextet (two each of violin, viola and cello) unfolds as a highly melodious work, with sadness lurking behind the textures. The andante is an intriguing set of variations, at times forceful, at times wistful, at all times delightful. A fun short scherzo lightens the mood for a moment, and a Schubertian rondo (the weakest movement) brings the composition to a close.


String Sextet 2 (op.36, 1865)
My version: Raphael Ensemble (Hyperion, 1988, 40 min)
An almost subdued, at times hauntingly beautiful, at times beautifully haunting, first movement sets the scene for one of Brahms' greatest creations. The Scherzo is sometimes playful, sometimes melancholic, the Adagio presents a set of variations, reminding us of his first sextet. The final movement, a relative weak point of the first sextet, lets the sun break through and brings this remarkable work to a melodic close.


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## mmsbls

I own the EMI set of sextets with Menuhin and Masters. From the moment I heard the first sextet I loved it. From what I can tell the second sextet may be viewed as a somewhat "greater" work. I still prefer the first one, however. I also adore the 2nd movement. While I agree with Art Rock that the last movement is the weakest, I still feel every movement is simply wonderful. In my view the work is truly a gem.


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## Quartetfore

A rich and beautiful work, and a special favorite of mine. Its on my list for a new version in updated sound.
For a different take on the work, there is a piano trio version by Theodore Kirchner who was a friend of Brahms. The trio version was approved by Brahms.
The second Sextet is quite good, but I do like the 1st a bit better.


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## Webernite

The variation movement from the first sextet has been one of Brahms's most popular movements since it was published. He made a piano transcription of it (Op. 18b) for Clara Schumann to play, not too often heard now.


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## PetrB

Both are a famous part of 'the' chamber music literature, the second that much more interesting than the first. The second, 'for sure' I would call Masterly.

Listen to the second Brahms sextet, then it might be time for you to check the Verkarte Nacht of Schoenberg


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## clavichorder

Art Rock said:


> A fun short scherzo lightens the mood for a moment, and a Schubertian rondo (the weakest movement) brings the composition to a close.


Huh, I wonder why you thought that the weakest movement?

To me there is not a thing weak about that piece, and the finale is a melodic high point.


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## violadude

I listened to this piece for the first time this morning after seeing this thread. I thought it was really good, I would hesitate to call it a masterpiece. I thought the first two movements were significantly better than the last two, which I felt tended to ramble a bit (these are just first impressions too, keep in mind). I'm afraid I have to agree with Art Rock that I thought the last movement was the weakest. But it did have a nice rondo theme.


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## clavichorder

I don't understand this last movement weakest thing though. What makes it weak? Did you find it less enjoyable? I mean, without thinking about it, and enjoying the work with my heart, I gravitated to that movement the most when I heard it live, since it covered the most territory, had the most expanded and free attitude. It does its job as a finale, and I pay little attention to lesser aspects of its form that might be seen, that kind of criticism pales in comparison to the emotional riches the theme and various emotional territories that it covers.


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## Ukko

Ahem and harumph. As promised, _clavi_, I have rousted out a recording of the sextets, and will now give the definitive pronouncement.

The 1st sextet is a strange beast. One is immediately immersed in a sound pattern that brought back to me my Latin teacher's fondness for saying '_volvuntur_' several times, as an example of onomatopoeia. Rolling waves, on and on for as far as the ear can hear. The 3rd movement finally breaks the pattern, and my motion sickness subsides. The last two movements are pretty good.

There you have it, young feller. Move on to the 2nd sextet, which has little wave motion and is more interesting anyway.


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## clavichorder

But Hilly, Brahms is full of 'wave motion' in all his music as far as I can tell! There is little Brahms that isn't texturally unsettling in some way, but I still like it. 4th symphony used to make me sea sick myself. 

Ah well, thank you for your pronouncement, and apologies for the rude rousting. 

All in perspective, I like the work a lot, wanted to know others opinions, and I got a bunch of interesting ones, not all the same. Mission accomplished, and there's plenty more Brahms to look into.


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## Chrythes

One of my favourite pieces by Brahms. The first movement is just beautiful. I remember liking it more than the second sextet, but I'm afraid it might be the spell of the first movement that made it so. 
Anyway, I'm giving these works another listen now. The recording I'm using is by Hausmusik London.









As far as I know they use gut strings, so it might sound quite different from your usual interpretation. The only other version that I listened to is by the Amadeus Quartet, which I found quite painful with those rhythms that seemed to kill the piece.


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## Novelette

The final movement seems the weakest, to me at least, insofar as it doesn't seem to anchor the entire work. The first movement is contemplative, and unmistakably in Brahms' style. The final movement is too similar to the first movement, in my opinion. I would expect the finale to be a little bit heavier than it it.


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## Vaneyes

I'll give Brahms the benefit of the doubt re masterpiece. I enjoy the Rafael Ens. recs. for the Sextets and Quintets, and don't harbor any preference for movements. :tiphat:


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## Sid James

I like them both but find #1 more memorable and tuneful, more directly emotional. The 2nd sextet is more kind of contrapuntal/technical and 'Baroque.'

The middle two movements of sextet #1 are inspired by Hungarian melodies, with those rhythmic shifts typical of their music. Brahms' lifelong friend, Hungarian violinist (& later dedicatee of the violin concerto) Joachim, acted as consultant for the string writing in this work, Brahms being in his twenties.

The sextet #2 is based on this 'tone row' type thing that has recently been discovered by scholars to be the name of Agathe von Siebold made into a musical motto. Brahms was dating her, but it came to nothing (in terms of marriage etc.). So now its nicknames the 'Agathe' sextet. I think this was written quite a while after the 1st sextet. Its more technically advanced and I remember the final movement as a tour de force in terms of that thematic 'coming together' that Brahms was such a master of.

I would say that in terms of this genre, string sextets, which is not a crowded field in terms of famous works, both of these are up there with the best in the field. I would call both masterpieces personally, but I would be happy calling them just great (essential!) chamber works by Brahms. One writer of the past said all of Brahms chamber works where masterpieces. He did not publish things lightly. He composed many times more than 3 violin sonatas for example, but only three made the final cut. Weeks before his imminent death & final illness, Brahms was busy burning manuscripts, piles of them went up in flames. He was a ultra perfectionist.


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## Novelette

I don't think Brahms could ever have composed anything but a masterpiece. The burnt manuscripts are a tragedy for those of us who admire Brahms so much.

Of course, I can wholly understand his reasons. But still..


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## Sid James

Novelette said:


> I don't think Brahms could ever have composed anything but a masterpiece. The burnt manuscripts are a tragedy for those of us who admire Brahms so much.
> 
> Of course, I can wholly understand his reasons. But still..


Don't know if you already know it, but his posthumously published piano trio may give you an idea of works he had second thoughts about (but it is an attribution, but a strong one, with consensus of expert opinion). I got it on a Naxos cd coupled with his 3rd trio played by the Vienna Piano Trio. He sent the posthumous trio to a colleague (a music professor) for an opinion but evidently did not get one. The manuscript was found among the professor's papers when he died in the early 20th century.

But yes, a guy who spends 'mucking around' for like 10-20 years with his first symphony does come across as a perfectionist (esp. with the shadow of Beethoven looking over his shoulder - the guy did set high standards for those after him to follow, of course)...


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## Novelette

I have a recording of the A Major Posthumous trio, performed by the Beaux Arts Trio.

I like the second, Vivace, movement. I wasn't aware of the circumstances of the work; thank you for the information!


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## Sid James

^^YOur welcome, I see it as one work that at least got away from the fire. Well, maybe. I have not listened to it in a good while, so I can't comment much on its content. But compared to the 3rd trio it is something like twice longer, so it is a substantial work.


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## Guest

I love his sextets (his quintets are also very good). Actually, I enjoy almost all of Brahms' chamber music, with the exception of his string quartets - they just don't click with me. I have the Verdi Quartett recordings of the sextets and quintets on the Hanssler label, and they are wonderful.


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## lostid

Brahms is one of my favorite composers and I can be easily connected with his music.

Yes I consider it as a masterpiece as I am listening it now.


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## clavichorder

DrMike said:


> I love his sextets (his quintets are also very good). Actually, I enjoy almost all of Brahms' chamber music, with the exception of his string quartets - they just don't click with me. I have the Verdi Quartett recordings of the sextets and quintets on the Hanssler label, and they are wonderful.


I have heard some say that about the quartets. They are a little stranger and less "whole," but I find them fascinating in their own way, sort of like his op. 10 ballades for piano.


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## Mal

Brahms String Sextet no.1 in B flat was featured on BBC Radio 3 Building a Library today. Most groups discussed in this thread had a honourable mention. The Leipzig quartet was the eventual winner; but it was a close call between eight!

Of the "close callers", Nash, Menuhin, Hausmusik, ASMF, & Amadeus are on Spotify, as is Busch, who got a "no one did it better than this" mention for the final movement.

Stern/Casals is my current benchmark on Spotify, but I haven't yet compared it to these BAL winners.

https://play.spotify.com/search/brahms sextet/albums


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## Pugg

Mal said:


> Brahms String Sextet no.1 in B flat was featured on BBC Radio 3 Building a Library today. Most groups discussed in this thread had a honourable mention. The Leipzig quartet was the eventual winner; but it was a close call between eight!
> 
> Of the "close callers", Nash, Menuhin, Hausmusik, ASMF, & Amadeus are on Spotify, as is Busch, who got a "no one did it better than this" mention for the final movement.
> 
> Stern/Casals is my current benchmark on Spotify, but I haven't yet compared it to these BAL winners.
> 
> https://play.spotify.com/search/brahms sextet/albums


Did they mention Quatuor Ebène by any chance?


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## Mal

Pugg said:


> Did they mention Quatuor Ebène by any chance?


I don't think so, might have missed it, many names coming thick and fast!


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## Brahmsian Colors

DrMike said:


> I love his sextets (his quintets are also very good). Actually, I enjoy almost all of Brahms' chamber music, with the exception of his string quartets - they just don't click with me.


My feelings pretty much mirror yours here. I happen to favor the First Sextet over the Second by a small margin. Of the many fine performances I have of these sextets, my favorites are those by the Raphael Ensemble.


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## EdwardBast

I vastly prefer the second sextet. Full of wonderful melody. It I would definitely call a masterpiece.


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## jegreenwood

It took me longer to warm to the second than the first, but now I prefer it. I have recordings by the Amadeus Quartet, members of the Berlin Philharmonic Octet (not listened to in years) and an all-star ensemble including Stern and Ma.


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## Rhinotop

Maybe isn't a masterpice, but it has some moments of strength and beauty


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## sestina

I made an account here just to say how much I love this, especially the second movement.


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## hpowders

Yes. This is one of Brahms' greatest works. So lovely!


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## Pugg

sestina said:


> I made an account here just to say how much I love this, especially the second movement.


Good on you and do stay with us.


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## PeterF

I consider both of Brahms string sextets to be wonderful. When I really like a piece of music I am apt to want more than one version. Without doing some careful comparison listening it would be close to impossible to select a favorite version.
However I very much find the playing in these two sextets by. the Raphael Ensemble, Amadeus Quartet + 2, Prazak Quartet + 2, and the ASMF Chamber Ensemble to be terrific.


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## JACE

I love both of Brahms' String Sextets.

Not sure whether they're "masterpieces" to the rest of the world. They are to me.


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## Guest

JACE said:


> I love both of Brahms' String Sextets.
> 
> Not sure whether they're "masterpieces" to the rest of the world. They are to me.


Surely you have no psychological blockades to enjoy it to the fullest.


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## JACE

Traverso said:


> Surely you have no psychological blockades to enjoy it to the fullest.


So true. No "looming shadow of Beethoven" for me.


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## hpowders

Yes. Both Brahms's String Sextets are great masterpieces.

I actually prefer them to the symphonies.

So arrest me!


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## sbmonty

I listened to the first String Sextet today. Very lovely. Amadeus Quartet with Aronowitz and Pleeth. Looking forward to the second sextet now.


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## hpowders

I recommend the Raphael Ensemble for both Sextets. Terrific performances. Solid Gold!!


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## Brahmsian Colors

hpowders said:


> I recommend the Raphael Ensemble for both Sextets. Terrific performances. Solid Gold!!


The Raphael Ensemble is my favorite modern chamber group. Not only is it a "Terrific" performer of the Brahms Sextets, but it also spins gold on these other cds as well: Bruckner String Quintet; Korngold String Sextet and Schoenberg Verklarte Nacht; Mendelssohn String Quintets; Schubert String Quintet; Dvorak String Quintet op.97 and String Sextet; Brahms String Quintets One and Two. All are available on the Hyperion label..I own them all, and consider the performances to be uniformly superb.


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## Pugg

sbmonty said:


> I listened to the first String Sextet today. Very lovely. Amadeus Quartet with Aronowitz and Pleeth. Looking forward to the second sextet now.


Good choice, very fine playing.


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## Retrograde Inversion

A Mozart concert from the _Star Trek TNG_ episode _Sarek_:


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## PeterF

I just very rcently added this 2 CD set to those I mentioned in my April 2014 post.
Stern / Lin / Loredo / Tree / Ma / Robinson - Sony
Have just heard both sestets by this group once thus far, but very much liked what I heard.


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## hpowders

Haydn67 said:


> The Raphael Ensemble is my favorite modern chamber group. Not only is it a "Terrific" performer of the Brahms Sextets, but it also spins gold on these other cds as well: Bruckner String Quintet; Korngold String Sextet and Schoenberg Verklarte Nacht; Mendelssohn String Quintets; Schubert String Quintet; Dvorak String Quintet op.97 and String Sextet; Brahms String Quintets One and Two. All are available on the Hyperion label..I own them all, and consider the performances to be uniformly superb.


For the two Brahms String Quintets I have two performances:

Boston Symphony Chamber Players.

Nash Ensemble.

Both very fine.

Thanks for your input.


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## Lenny

This (the 1st sextet) is for me perhaps the most definitive Brahms chamber piece. I cannot get enough of it! I'm listening to it weekly, sometimes daily.

String sextet as a format seems to fit well to my ear. The sound is a bit thicker than quartet, but still close and intimate.


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## hpowders

It's a fine string sextet, but it pales before the greatest of all string sextets, the Brahms Second String Sextet.


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## Pugg

Of course its is if you want a new approach, try this recording.










Just stunning!


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## Lenny

hpowders said:


> It's a fine string sextet, but it pales before the greatest of all string sextets, the Brahms Second String Sextet.


Pales? Come on


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## Art Rock

It comes in second overall for me in the category, quite a respectable result, but Brahms' second is indeed even better imo.


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## hpowders

Art Rock said:


> It comes in second overall for me in the category, quite a respectable result, but Brahms' second is indeed even better imo.


Yes....much....much better!!!!


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## David Phillips

My favourite work of early Brahms, I was reminded by the passing of Jeanne Moreau that it was used in the foreground of Louis Malle's 'Les Amants' in which she starred, where it was played on her husband's radiogram.


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## Larkenfield

I find the Sextet warmly melodic and glorious. There's a wonderful sense of celebration in the Scherzo and many unexpected harmonic surprises within the work as a whole that add variety and interest. I find the last movement rich and satisfying. I'm not for nitpicking a work such as this but as something special to be enjoyed, as Brahms is mostly in a very happy rather than serious mood here. I find great mastery in all aspects of the way it's composed. Brahms followed his own path of what he he wanted to do and it really paid off here.


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## classfolkphile

I very much enjoy both sextets. My favorite of the four or five I've heard is the Cypress Qt. with Schiffman and Bailey. The playing and sound quality (it was "Recorded in front of a live studio audience on the Scoring Stage at Skywalker Ranch") is superb.

Scoring Stage:


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## Botschaft

To my knowledge the strings sextets of Brahms each have two recordings of performances with period instruments: one by L'archibudelli, the other by Hausmusik London. Generally I prefer L'archibudelli's, except their second movement of the first sextet.


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## kyjo

Yes, a masterpiece indeed. Its profound sense of autumnal beauty and depth of sound are deeply moving to me. The rich interplay between the parts that Brahms creates is absolutely breathtaking. I marginally prefer it to the also very fine 2nd Sextet, which is rather let down by its slow movement IMO.


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