# The Happiest and the Saddest



## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Who's the happiest composer in your opinion? Whose works almost always sing of sunshine and the joy of living... about celebrating and happy spirits?

And who might be the saddest, most despairing composer? Who can see the deepest pain and sorrow in even the happiest of moments?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't know many truly happy composers, haha. Maybe Debussy or Ravel.

As for sad, pretty much the rest of them.... Oh God, I'm depressed!


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Felix Mendelssohn's music seems generally happy.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Messiaen's music is sometimes violent, but quite often happy, and I think of Haydn as a generally sunny composer as well.

As for sad, Sibelius, Shostakovich, and Berg are usually quite gloomy.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I think Haydn is the happiest composer - was just listening to the Benedictus of the Theresa Mass, what a joyous piece. 'Sad' composers are, for me, Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi, Schubert, Beethoven (in some cases, not always of course) and Chopin.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Shosty seems like a good candidate for gloomiest. His SQ 15 has 6 movements, all of them marked _Adagio_.

Even Ravel's memorial music is quite upbeat, though. "The dead are sad enough, in their eternal silence."


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Yea, most of Haydn's music does seem pretty sunny.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> Yea, most of Haydn's music does seem pretty sunny.


That is why I love him. I posed this question to you guys because I like Schubert a lot, but I got just a little turned off today from his music because it seems incessantly sad to me. Maybe a fresh day will bring fresh insight, but for now I am turning to Herr Haydn


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

shangoyal said:


> I posed this question to you guys because I like Schubert a lot, but I got just a little turned off today from his music because it seems incessantly sad to me.


"Frequently", certainly, but I don't find him "incessantly" sad. What about the Trout Quintet, or the 5th and 9th symphonies, or the Piano Trios?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

For my part, Schubert would be my answer for saddest composer. Haydn and Hindemith would be on my shortlist of happiest composers.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Schubert borders that fine line between sadness and sweetness so much that I can understand where shang is coming from.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

ahammel said:


> "Frequently", certainly, but I don't find him "incessantly" sad. What about the Trout Quintet, or the 5th and 9th symphonies, or the Piano Trios?


You are right. Those works are definitely positive, but somehow I can always hear the sad songwriter beneath all the brave music making. Maybe just me.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Mahler was quite miserable a lot of the time, (he had a bad childhood and many psychological problems) but so much beauty and joy shines through his work it seems he put all of his own positive feeling into it. I'm reading a great book about him called 'Gustav Mahler and the courage to be.' If only I could remember who wrote it...


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Mahler was quite miserable a lot of the time, (he had a bad childhood and many psychological problems) but so much beauty and joy shines through his work it seems he put all of his own positive feeling into it. I'm reading a great book about him called 'Gustav Mahler and the courage to be.' If only I could remember who wrote it...


I agree with La Grange here regarding the Ninth:
"Like that of _Das Lied von der Erde_, this ending is in no way pessimistic or tinged with despair. Whether one discovers here a message of hope, a farewell of heart-rending tenderness, or the serene acceptance of fate, it cannot be denied that this final Adagio brings with it a sense of supreme fulfillment, an ideal catharsis."


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

ahammel said:


> "Frequently", certainly, but I don't find him "incessantly" sad. What about the Trout Quintet, or the 5th and 9th symphonies, or the Piano Trios?


Well, the andante from the piano trio in e flat majot (also in the Barry Lyndon soundtrack) is not one of the happiest music I have ever heard...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> Messiaen's music is sometimes violent, but quite often happy


I didn't expect to see Messiaen in a topic about the composer who wrote the happiest music in history. 
I love the pieces I know of him, but his music to me sounds contemplative, eerie, otherworldly, dreamy, sometimes scary but I can't think of a single piece I would define as happy. But there is a lot of music of him that I don't know, so I'd be curious to know what are the pieces you're thinking of.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Shosty seems like a good candidate for gloomiest. His SQ 15 has 6 movements, all of them marked _Adagio_.


I agree for Shostakovich, but adagio doesn't mean sad. Adagio means slow. Quite a difference.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I didn't expect to see Messiaen in a topic about the composer who wrote the happiest music in history.
> I love the pieces I know of him, but his music to me sounds contemplative, eerie, otherworldly, dreamy, sometimes scary but I can't think of a single piece I would define as happy. But there is a lot of music of him that I don't know, so I'd be curious to know what are the pieces you're thinking of.


The movements 5 and 10 of Turangalila, the 2nd of the Trois petites liturgies, the finale of Visions de l'amen, and other movements in that vein are what I had in mind. They strike me as expressions of overwhelming joy. I also chose Messiaen because he had no interest in the _angst_ that was part and parcel of so much late and post-Romantic music, so his music is never sad as such.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

A little surprised some are mentioning Ravel as one of the happiest sounding composers. His music doesn't really strike me that way. Not that I think he sounds depressed or pessimistic either, but honestly "happy" or "sad" I think are just too simplistic of terms to use to describe his music.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

tdc said:


> A little surprised some are mentioning Ravel as one of the happiest sounding composers. His music doesn't really strike me that way. Not that I think he sounds depressed or pessimistic either, but honestly "happy" or "sad" I think are just too simplistic of terms to use to describe his music.


Well, I think "happy" and "sad" are used more as blanket terms in here. Because none of the composers mentioned are just happy or sad.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Blancrocher said:


> For my part, Schubert would be my answer for saddest composer. Haydn and Hindemith would be on my shortlist of happiest composers.


I'm surprIsed to see you voicing this sentiment,I've always found him happy. Of course like any artist he dealt with sad subjects but are not love and death the two big subjects ?
But he reflected the countryside often in his music. I've got shelves full of Schubert as you know ,but never thought of him as a sad composer.
Mind you I always felt sad on his behalf, but even though his music wasn't really recognised in his lifetime he didn't appear to let it get him down---- did he ?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Well, I think "happy" and "sad" are used more as blanket terms in here. Because none of the composers mentioned are just happy or sad.


I think some composers can more easily be identified under these blanket terms though, for example I agree Haydn and Mendelssohn generally sound quite happy, where Shostakovich is quite gloomy. Debussy and Ravel I think because of their musical styles are examples of composers that don't quite fit as well under these "blanket terms".


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

moody said:


> I'm surprIsed to see you voicing this sentiment,I've always found him happy. Of course like any artist he dealt with sad subjects but are not love and death the two big subjects ?
> But he reflected the countryside often in his music. I've got shelves full of Schubert as you know ,but never thought of him as a sad composer.
> Mind you I always felt sad on his behalf, but even though his music wasn't really recognised in his lifetime he didn't appear to let him get him down---- did he ?


I felt ambivalent writing it, and regretted it after--I don't disagree with you. "Melancholy" or "wistful" might be the best word, and in any case his outlook on the world always seems positive to me when I hear his music.

In fact, I'm not sure I can think of a _properly_ sad composer: even Shostakovich strikes me as more panicked and despairing than what I think of as "sad."


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

tdc said:


> I think some composers can more easily be identified under these blanket terms though, for example I agree Haydn and Mendelssohn generally sound quite happy, where Shostakovich is quite gloomy. _Debussy and Ravel I think because of their musical styles are examples of composers that don't quite fit as well under these "blanket terms"._


I hear you. There is definitely a deepness and majesty to their "impressionistic" style. Although, they always made me happy.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Has anybody mentioned Schnittke? Always good for a quick pick-me-up...


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Chabrier wrote a lot of pretty cheerful stuff


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

One of the reasons I love Ravel is precisely because of the melancholy of some of his music!.

-Sad Birds: 




-La Vallée des Cloches: 




-Piano Concerto for the left hand: 




-Violin Sonata:


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Glazunov may be the best candidate. Like Mendelssohn, even his minor keyed stuff is rarely gloomy, more likely to invoke storms or stress than gloom. His major keys can actually be the saddest, in my opinion. Almost his whole oeuvre is entirely possessed by his positive outlook on life, just a few exceptions.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

Most of the great composers are able to cover a full spectrum of emotions. Schubert, for example, has some pieces which are delightfully happy (Trout Quintet) and other pieces which are incredibly sad and melancholic (parts of Winterreise). 

Same goes for Beethoven. In fact, with the first two movements of the 7th symphony, he juxtaposes one of my favourite "happy pieces" with one of my favourite "sad pieces." So I'd probably say Beethoven is the happiest and the saddest composer!


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm shocked Schubert was mentioned as a candidate for "saddest" composers. I understand he could write sad music as good as or better than anyone(Winterreise, Late Quartets), but at the same time, in my opinion he wrote some of the uplifting as well(Lots of Lieder, "Trout", Symphony 5, certain piano sonatas). So just for that reason, i wouldn't designate him as the saddest composer.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

shangoyal said:


> Who's the happiest composer in your opinion? Whose works almost always sing of sunshine and the joy of living... about celebrating and happy spirits?
> 
> And who might be the saddest, most despairing composer? Who can see the deepest pain and sorrow in even the happiest of moments?


Who's up for something other than Boolean variables? Happy/Sad. Is that it? No nuances? No other states? Happy/Sad. Period. I don't know of any real person who was so simple.

And what about the also two choices only pairing of personality with type of music? Happy people only write happy music? Sad people only write sad music? Surely you jest!!

Most people I know are a welter of numerous and various and conflicting emotions. The ones who aren't are very dull people who wouldn't be likely to write any music, happy or sad!! And most composers whom I know personally don't write "happy" music when they're happy and "sad" music when they're sad.

In fact.... But that's another topic. :devil:


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

No, it's the same topic. Go on...


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

Of course, you are correct.

I was just looking out my hotel window in Andorra at the sunny and snowless slopes and thinking about having a little walkabout before I bury myself in my "habitacion" to do some work.

In fact, the emotional state of a composer is never any sort of indication as to what kind of music she is about to write. And besides (haven't we done this one already?), the "happiness" or "sadness" of any piece of music is dependent, in part, on the auditor as well. I played _Gong_ once for a music listening group. (Those are fun. Highly recommended!!) The impression of one person was that it was "dark." (Insofar as it is "about" anything, _Gong_ is about the sun.) I played _L'etoile absinthe_ for a couple of friends once. Their sense of it was that it was "dark." (I know, again with the "dark." I think it means "something that intrigues me but that I don't really get yet.") I told the composer about that when I saw her next, which was at the premiere of its companion piece, _Chant d'ombre._ She laughed and said, "Dark? _L'etoile_ is the bright piece. _Chant_ is the dark one."

Needless to say (which means, in fact, needful to say*), she does not think of her two pieces as being in any way so simplistic.

*You know, like "I'll be frank with you" means "I'm going to lie to you, now."


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Yes, but sometimes Schubert just chills my bones, with I don't know what? Maybe all those mediants and submediants, piled one upon another, modulation after modulation...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

some guy said:


> Needless to say (which means, in fact, needful to say*), she does not think of her two pieces as being in any way so simplistic.
> 
> *You know, like "I'll be frank with you" means "I'm going to lie to you, now."


I love these little introductions. Another one - to preface a remark with 'with respect' means you don't respect them at all!


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Beethoven wrote his 8th symphony while his life was in turmoil, and from Haydn's Sturm und Drang period it is evident that he too suffered from bleaker emotions than most of his works convey. Their music is in more than one way separate from their personal lives; but it may tell you something about their intellect, or their conception of the world.

Mendelssohn's music represents true _joie de vivre_, while Haydn's always carries with it an exalted feeling of happiness and contentedness. In Mozart's brighter works we hear the harps of angels, in Beethoven's grandest I feel the profound joy of searching and finding. Martinů is a true romantic, Glazunov an optimistic bard. Bruckner fights daemonic battles but survives a satisfied warrior; Mahler gently affirms the _joys of the labyrinth_.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

"Sad" is too broad a term, and its relatives aren't always there in a composer's works. Except maybe those of that Pettersen guy. Shostakovitch composed a lot of downers, but they ain't all _sad._ Much of Schumann's music is cheerful on top, pessimistic underneath. Even Tchaikovsky's 6th finale isn't sad. Sad is soft; that music is hard.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Delightful word that -- "downers". Yeah, basically, I meant the positives things (joy, passion, growth) - as opposed to the negative things (dejection, loss). Sad is just an easy word to use, that is all.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> Beethoven wrote his 8th symphony while his life was in turmoil, and from Haydn's Sturm und Drang period it is evident that he too suffered from bleaker emotions than most of his works convey. Their music is in more than one way separate from their personal lives; but it may tell you something about their intellect, or their conception of the world.
> 
> Mendelssohn's music represents true _joie de vivre_, while Haydn's always carries with it an exalted feeling of happiness and contentedness. In Mozart's brighter works we hear the harps of angels, in Beethoven's grandest I feel the profound joy of searching and finding. Martinů is a true romantic, Glazunov an optimistic bard. Bruckner fights daemonic battles but survives a satisfied warrior; Mahler gently affirms the _joys of the labyrinth_.


Actually, I've read that Haydn was prefectly healthy while composing these Sturm und Drang symphonies, hehe. But who knows, some sources say one thing and others the opposite.


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