# Scriabin and the Symbolist Aesthetic



## MJTTOMB

This is an article I wrote and researched on the influence of Symbolist ideology on the late works of Scriabin. I hope you enjoy them, the only thing I ask is that you respect my intellectual property and do not plagiarize my work.


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## MJTTOMB




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## MJTTOMB




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## Rasa

Would it be possible to get a bigger version?


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## emiellucifuge

Wow, its very concise, accurate, informative and above all fascinating. Thanks for sharing!

Do you know anything about Theosophy?


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## MJTTOMB

Rasa said:


> Would it be possible to get a bigger version?


Certainly. Here's a .pdf version, but printing and copying are disabled.


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## chee_zee

I enjoyed the part about the mystic/augmented/french sixth chords on pgs 4-8.


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## Ukko

I think the subject line of your post is missing an 'n'.


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## MJTTOMB

Wow, you're clever. Anesthetic. Funny.


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## Ukko

Thank you. Actually not my opinion, because I didn't read your articles. I_ have_ been reading Berlioz's "Evenings With the Orchestra". It seems to have made me 'sardonic aware'.


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## MJTTOMB

That's a great story.

In other news, it's midnight here, and officially Scriabin's birthday (and mine as well).


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## Rasa

Slight spelling mistake on page 4, second line of text: "Poème d'lextase" should be Poème de l'extase.


Looks good, will take time to read it properly.


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## MJTTOMB

Jeez, first sentence is a prominent mistake. Oof, I hadn't even noticed. I guess I just combined Poème de l'extase and Le Poème d'extase.To be honest I can't speak French at all, I guess I just crossed the two titles in my brain.

Thanks for pointing it out though, do let me know if you enjoy it!


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## myaskovsky2002

*I agree with Rasa*

I'm not so young, I can't read you.

Martin


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## MJTTOMB

I've uploaded a pdf version with much larger print, see my earlier posts!


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## myaskovsky2002

> I've uploaded a pdf version with much larger print, see my earlier posts!


Earlier posts? I see nothing..just your tiny document. Ar you a spy? LOL

Martin


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## MJTTOMB

http://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1363&d=1294145452


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## Rasa

Gave it a proper read now.


What I find a bit lacking in p4-5 is a clear defenition/description of the literary movement and this transposes to musical symbolism. You give a few properties of symbolic literary works, but not really cover the matter of "symbols" per se. p5-6 this very well: exoticism -> new harmonical constructs illustrate very well in regards to a very specific subject. Especially since you refer a few more times to the "symbolist aesthetic" and "ideology"


p7 "though tritones are not uncommon." This seems like a dangerous statement to me. It would be fairly easy to argue that the whole whole-tone scale sound is partially based upon the frequent appearance of the tritone

I like the observation on p11 concerning triplet vs duplet to break apart meter. I'd dare say that rythm is no longer used for pulsation, but is directly in function of tone colour (in polyrthmic passages)

In part 2 it would be particularly nice to illustrate the use of symbols by showing them in multiple instances in the same work. It's easy to say it's there, it's hard to show the analysis.


Overall a nice smooth read. Good job.

did you submit this for a degree/publication?


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## norman bates

i'm very curious about the relation of the music of Debussy and Scriabin. I've read that the only known comment made by Scriabin on Debussy is something like "He shouldn't have stolen from our Russian music". There were russian musicians that predates the music of the french composer? 
And Debussy knew about Scriabin?


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## suli

I like the idea of the "Ecstasy Motive" (oscillating tritone). What is interesting is that it is often used as a common tritone between mystic scales (p. 15, Poeme-Nocturne--the Db and G mystic scales share the TT f-cb), and octotonic scales (p. 15, Op. 74 III---the set of octotonic scales starting on c, eb, f#, and a share the TT c-f#), so it can indeed build intensity by remaining constant as the scales change around it.


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## Vaneyes

norman bates said:


> i'm very curious about the relation of the music of Debussy and Scriabin. I've read that the only known comment made by Scriabin on Debussy is something like "He shouldn't have stolen from our Russian music". There were russian musicians that predates the music of the french composer?
> And Debussy knew about Scriabin?


Noting it's been over a year since you posted this, have you found answers?

Not having read a Scriabin biography, and relying only on a few online sources, I came up empty on any Debussy/Scriabin relationship and quotes.

Wikipedia lists Tchaikovsky, Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, and Mussorgsky as Russian influences on Debussy's music. The first four being minor, and Mussorgsky more so for Boris Godunov influence on Pelleas et Melisande.

Scriabin visited and resided in Paris between 1898 and 1907, so I would think they knew of each other.


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## lextune

norman bates said:


> i'm very curious about the relation of the music of Debussy and Scriabin. I've read that the only known comment made by Scriabin on Debussy is something like "He shouldn't have stolen from our Russian music". There were russian musicians that predates the music of the french composer?
> And Debussy knew about Scriabin?





Vaneyes said:


> Noting it's been over a year since you posted this, have you found answers?
> 
> Not having read a Scriabin biography, and relying only on a few online sources, I came up empty on any Debussy/Scriabin relationship and quotes.
> 
> Wikipedia lists Tchaikovsky, Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, and Mussorgsky as Russian influences on Debussy's music. The first four being minor, and Mussorgsky more so for Boris Godunov influence on Pelleas et Melisande.
> 
> Scriabin visited and resided in Paris between 1898 and 1907, so I would think they knew of each other.


Scriabin and Debussy never met, but Scriabin attended a performance of La Mer conducted by Debussy. Scriabin also owned a copy of the score.


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## Nate Miller

suli said:


> I like the idea of the "Ecstasy Motive" (oscillating tritone). What is interesting is that it is often used as a common tritone between mystic scales (p. 15, Poeme-Nocturne--the Db and G mystic scales share the TT f-cb), and octotonic scales (p. 15, Op. 74 III---the set of octotonic scales starting on c, eb, f#, and a share the TT c-f#), so it can indeed build intensity by remaining constant as the scales change around it.


The 7th chords Db and G are also substitutes for each other. They do share a common triton, and a triton can always be resolved by contrary motion to either a 3rd or a 6th.

you can also always move a sequence through the cycle of minor 3rds, too. You come out where you begin, just like with diminished scales

also, since we can add the dominant before any chord, tritons can move up and down by a half step. Consider the cycle of 5ths progression A7 | D7 | G7 | C7

you could capture that harmonic motion with a simple triton (C#, G) -> (C, F#) -> (B ,F) -> (Bb,E)


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## Valjuan

An excellent article on this topic is _Scriabin's Symbolist Plot Archetype in the Late Piano Sonatas_ by Susanna Garcia. Totally changed the way I listened to Scriabin.


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## Vaneyes

*Scriabin Association *is helpful.

http://www.scriabin-association.com...bins-use-of-french-directions-to-the-pianist/


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## Vaneyes

Valjuan said:


> An excellent article on this topic is _Scriabin's Symbolist Plot Archetype in the Late Piano Sonatas_ by Susanna Garcia. Totally changed the way I listened to Scriabin.


Those interested in this article can access it by Googling "Scriabin, Susanna Garcia", then clicking on the first PDF link.


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## Valjuan

Vaneyes said:


> Those interested in this article can access it by Googling "Scriabin, Susanna Garcia", then clicking on the first PDF link.


Thanks, I should have done that with my post.


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## rldluz

Hi, would you have the reference for that information? Thanks


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## rldluz

lextune said:


> Scriabin and Debussy never met, but Scriabin attended a performance of La Mer conducted by Debussy. Scriabin also owned a copy of the score.


Hi lextune, would you have the reference for that information? Thanks


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## lextune

rldluz said:


> Hi lextune, would you have the reference for that information? Thanks


Hi. The reference is here:

José Eduardo Martins, "Quelques Aspects Comparatifs Dans les Langages Pianistique de Debussy et Scriabine,"
Cahiers Debussy, No. 7 (1983): 24-25.

And here is the link to the dissertation it is talked about in (page 31):

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc6048/m2/1/high_res_d/dissertation.pdf


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## scriiabin

this looks amazing. thank you, ive always been eager to read more about him and im glad others feel the same way


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## 96 Keys

MJTTOMB said:


> http://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1363&d=1294145452


I get an "Invalid Attachment specified" message. My account is new--do I not have the necessary viewing privileges?


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