# The Steinway: As Good as Claimed?



## TrazomGangflow

Steinways are widely regarded as the best pianos. (their price refelcts that) Is it true that Steinways are the best and are they really worth the price? What is you opinion?


----------



## kv466

Hmmm, I like this. 

'are they really worth the price?' - undoubtedly. the amount of work that goes into making any piano, from any company is totally worth the price...that goes for any finely crafted instrument.

'Is it true that Steinways are the best...?' - well, of course, that is a matter of opinion.


I, personally, do not love the Steinway but then I think of cd318...and some of the other Steinways my favorite pianist recorded and played live with and I think, "man, it just sounds absolutely perfect". So, I reckon, it has a lot to do with some certain things that I am not aware of but just thinking of my acoustic guitars; you can take a guitar fresh out the factory and make it sound completely different (and better) just with a few, minor changes like wood end pins, bone bridge and nut, good tuners and the best strings. So, that being said, I'm sure there are adjustments that can be made so that some Steinways are better than others. 

My personal favorite is Bösendorfer as it has a thick, warm quality that I particularly like...also, it is available with 97 keys and, with instruments, I like to have as much range as possible.

Close behind is the Baldwin and this is mainly because of my other favorite pianist, EW. I'm not sure which recordings he used which on because I know he's used a few different types of pianos but the ones I know for sure he has played Baldwin on,...the piano sounds great. One of these is his recording of the Complete Chopin Etudes, which is one of my favorites,...to me, the piano sound is exquisite. 

Back to Steinway. It's just a matter of choice. It is as good as claimed. You can call it 'the best' if you want because it, indeed, is one of the best made instruments in the world. I wouldn't want to hear Bach on any other piano.


----------



## Rasa

Short story: yes and yes to the value issue.

I was recently asked by acquaintances to help them pick a piano, which led me around a few stores and a range of brands. After an entire day of kawai, yamaha, bosendorfer, boston, ibach and petrof, the first strike on the Steinway was clearly the superior instrument.

The main issue is obviously the price. The smallest steinway costs a not so small fortune. There are two things to consider.

1. The quality of the instrument

Steinway instruments are very well built and have superior sound to most other brands (individual instruments notwithstanding). For a professional, I reckon the sound merits the investment. But amateurs and beginning conservatory students can perfectly practice their art on other brands.

2. Return investment.

Steinways have exellent production values and great warranty. The instrument is a lot less likely to decrease in value when compared to other instruments.

These two combined, they are worth the investement. It just becomes irrelevant if you don't have that wad of cash to invest.



> My personal favorite is Bösendorfer as it has a thick, warm quality that I particularly like...also, it is available with 97 keys and, with instruments, I like to have as much range as possible.


Those lower notes are very irrelevant. Little literature for them and rapidly out of tune.


----------



## Ukko

Rasa said:


> [...]
> Those lower notes are very irrelevant. Little literature for them and rapidly out of tune.


Ah, but the strings resonate when other notes are struck? Isn't that a contributor to the Bosendorfer sound?


----------



## kv466

Rasa said:


> Those lower notes are very irrelevant. Little literature for them and rapidly out of tune.


Rasa,...you know I like your posts very much; the whole first part of this one included!

"Irrelevant", however, is simply not the correct word to use there...first off, I like the Bösendorfer sound the most even on an 88 because of the way it sounds; the woods, the craftsmanship...I don't know...it's just my favorite sound. 
The only way the having extra low notes could be 'irrelevant' would be if they were imaginary and produced no sound. Also, you've always come across to me as a very intelligent player and person in general...why would someone like me care about how much 'literature' there is for a particular instrument?...why would _anyone_ for that matter!...it's sad to think that someone can't sit behind a piano and see some extra notes and think, "oh, how I wish someone had written something on those for me to play",...that's why we each have a mind and can create anything we want out of an instrument.

If this were true I'd be playing four string bass like any typical jazz musician...but I make music fresh and new each week and that's why I choose to have an extra high b and an extra low b; and let me tell you, when you wanna hit some really deep bass on a D for instance,...a four string bass will never give you that.

So anyway, back to the piano...sure, it's not very popular but I've sat behind them for hours and it is a delight to hear thick, rich chords and as Trollie said, it adds to the entire resonance of the instrument. Anyway,...I'll probably always play an 88 as I don't see myself buying one but I just had to comment on how thoughtless that tidbit was.

Don't get sour at me for this...I like you very much...my old sister-in-law's name is Rasa!


----------



## Ukko

kv466 said:


> [...]
> So anyway, back to the piano...sure, it's not very popular but I've sat behind them for hours and it is a delight to hear thick, rich chords and as Trollie said, it adds to the entire resonance of the instrument. Anyway,...I'll probably always play an 88 as I don't see myself buying one but I just had to comment on how thoughtless that tidbit was.
> 
> Don't get sour at me for this...I like you very much...my old sister-in-law's name is Rasa!


Hey_Kv466_, maybe _Sid_ will buy you a Stuart, if you pay for shipping.

:devil:


----------



## Klavierspieler

Yes and Yes.

However, this only applies to the _really_ high-end pianos (i.e. $100,000+). For mid-range pianos (20,000 - 60,000) off-brand companies sometimes have just as good of pianos for a much lower price.


----------



## Rasa

> why would someone like me care about how much 'literature' there is for a particular instrument?...


We're talking about value in this thread. And for me, having a few keys I wish I could plonk is not good value.

As far as resonance go, I'd be impressed if those lowest strings retain their proper tuning long enough for them to resonate on undertones.



> Don't get sour at me for this...


This is the internet, I'm arms out!


----------



## clavichorder

Rasa said:


> Those lower notes are very irrelevant. Little literature for them and rapidly out of tune.


Totally relevant if you want to play Alkan!


----------



## clavichorder

I have a Steinway baby grand, its a little too loud sometimes, I think the hammers are too hard and need replacement.


----------



## Rasa

clavichorder said:


> Totally relevant if you want to play Alkan!


Correctly tuned strings is indeed not necessary to ram on your keys.


----------



## clavichorder

Rasa said:


> Correctly tuned strings is indeed not necessary to ram on your keys.


Not all Alkan is ramming on the keys. One piece in particular is very quite and uses both the high register and the low register. I believe it is a "chant". It has a very catchy melody somehow. Hilltroll, help me out.


----------



## Ernie

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ah, but the strings resonate when other notes are struck? Isn't that a contributor to the Bosendorfer sound?


Without using the sustain pedal, the strings will not resonate because they are damped. There is another possible advantage to having the extra strings. The soundboard is glued to the case (soundboard liners and belly rail) all around its perimeter. As a result, the board gets stiffer as it approaches its edges and is not as free to vibrate. Soundboards are usually thinned, particularly in the treble, to help compensate for this stiffening. The extra strings at the bass end of a Bosendorfer allow the lowest "normal" note of a piano (A1) to be further away from the edge of the soundboard, thus placing A1 in an area of the soundboard that vibrates more easily. Therefore, the extra strings, at least theoretically, allow for better tone production for the low A and subsequent notes.


----------



## GoneBaroque

Grotrian may not be a familiar name in the USA, but it is well known and highly respected in Europe under the name Grotrian-Steinweg. Grotrian pianos are rated in the top tier of pianos for quality and performance—right alongside Bösendorfer.

Grotrian is a small, family owned company building approximately 125 grand pianos a year. The Grotrian piano factory was started in 1835 by Friedrich Grotrian. In the beginning, Grotrian built pianos with several other families including the Steinweg and Hefferlich families. The Steinweg family eventually moved to New York becoming Steinway and Sons, while Grotrian continued building in Braunschweig Germany. Today the Grotrian is known as one of the finest instruments in the world and is admired for its simple yet pleasing look, its rich, powerful bass, and its brilliant treble section.


----------



## Rasa

I actually have a 1898 Grotrian-Steinway upright, still in a condition that is completely remedyable. Must be quality.


----------



## Lunasong

You may like the documentary "Note by Note: The Making of Steinway L1037" which follows the crafting of one "D" Steinway over the course of a year. It interviews the craftsmen involved and, while it doesn't get too much into the detail of why and how, it is heartening to see the care with which the craftsmen ensure the quality of the pianos and understand the heritage of the Steinway name. This doc is currently available on Netflix streaming.


----------



## Rasa

Saw that too. Great show. It also offers an insight as to why Steinways are so damn expensive.


----------



## Nssie

Steinway is most well known of the top quality brands. Lots of other pianos are just as good, if not better. Go look up Steingräber, guys. Oh, and btw, NY steinway used to have a reputation for lacklustre fit and finish. But they sound pretty good tho. But Stuart&and sons IMO beats most, if not all.


----------



## moody

Nssie said:


> Steinway is most well known of the top quality brands. Lots of other pianos are just as good, if not better. Go look up Steingräber, guys. Oh, and btw, NY steinway used to have a reputation for lacklustre fit and finish. But they sound pretty good tho. But Stuart&and sons IMO beats most, if not all.


I guess that's why all the top artists use their instruments rather than Steinway.


----------



## Nssie

What's your definition of "top artist"? Most concert artists use steinway because it is well known. Certainly, some other artists do use other top brands, but of course they are very very *very* few. There are quite a few manufacturers most people don't know about. Do you want a partial list?


----------



## moody

Nssie said:


> What's your definition of "top artist"? Most concert artists use steinway because it is well known. Certainly, some other artists do use other top brands, but of course they are very very *very* few. There are quite a few manufacturers most people don't know about. Do you want a partial list?


Why would concert pianists not know about these manufacturers but you would. Also if most people don't know about them their marketing or word of mouth recomendations are not doing well. Not to mention the fact that people would HEAR these instruments and see them in concert, on television-=whatever' Your reasoning holds no water as far as I'm concerned and by the way I know that some pianists use Bechsteins ,Bluethners and that Katsaris has a Mark Allen piano. But these are a small minority.


----------



## Ernie

Nssie said:


> What's your definition of "top artist"? Most concert artists use steinway because it is well known. Certainly, some other artists do use other top brands, but of course they are very very *very* few. There are quite a few manufacturers most people don't know about. Do you want a partial list?


I think you may have it backwards. Most concert artists don't use Steinway because it's well known - it's well known because most concert artists play them.


----------



## Nssie

Concert artists play them- that's why they're well known. And anyway, why would concert artists bother to go through the small manufacturers anyway? They hearabout the more well known ones, (bluthner, bechstein, bosendorfer) and use them. There are others too, dont forget.

Oh,and moody, those i mentioned first are not used because they are THAT obscure. Good luck trying to find any kind of well known concert artist using them.


----------



## Nssie

Here's a list many of brands the majority of people don't knoe about

Pfeiffer
Mason& hamlin
Ronisch
Steingräber and Söhne
August Förster
Estonia
Stuart and Sons

But of course, the ones i mantioned previously, you guys will know now.


----------



## Nssie

You've heard of the Steinway Concert And Artist program, right?


----------



## moody

Nssie said:


> You've heard of the Steinway Concert And Artist program, right?


This is rather like the dream that you're stuck in a revolving door going round and round, but you can't get out--well I'm going to !


----------



## Nssie

Good on ya! Gold star!


----------



## Nssie

Oh, btw, I like Steinway in general. But i like other brands of pianos too, so i can't say which is necessarily best, even in my opinin.


----------



## Sofronitsky

I think this whole thread wasn't thought out so much... but I will offer my two cents.

Steinway instruments are some of the best out there. I firmly believe that it is impossible to see any EXTREME difference in sound quality from a fine steinway instrument to any other instrument (Bosendorfer, Stuart and Sons?, Fazioli)...

I will say, however, that if I were to record a large Chopin program or concerto, I would choose a different instrument. Steinways are great instruments, yes, but they (like many modern pianos) put off a metallic sound and come off very heavy or the light work. When playing Satie on a Steinway concert grand, one might hear it as Satie cast in iron :tiphat:


----------



## aleazk

In my city, we have a new Steinway in the main theatre that was premiered by Martha herself!. Here is a recording of the recital, at which I assisted. If I remember right, the piano costed U$S 250.000 to the city, and the buy was managed by the pianist Bruno Gelber.






It was a surreal experience...


----------



## Rasa

Sofronitsky said:


> I think this whole thread wasn't thought out so much... but I will offer my two cents.
> 
> Steinway instruments are some of the best out there. I firmly believe that it is impossible to see any EXTREME difference in sound quality from a fine steinway instrument to any other instrument (Bosendorfer, Stuart and Sons?, Fazioli)...
> 
> I will say, however, that if I were to record a large Chopin program or concerto, I would choose a different instrument. Steinways are great instruments, yes, but they (like many modern pianos) put off a metallic sound and come off very heavy or the light work. When playing Satie on a Steinway concert grand, one might hear it as Satie cast in iron :tiphat:


I've heard other pianists claim that new steinways have a more metallic sound then old ones. I think I only ever play on old ones (the ones at conservatory being not much older then the one at home)


----------



## Sofronitsky

Rasa said:


> I've heard other pianists claim that new steinways have a more metallic sound then old ones. I think I only ever play on old ones (the ones at conservatory being not much older then the one at home)


Yes.. I associate the sound mostly with Pollini's newer recordings (which appear to be made almost exclusively on the instruments)of Chopin that sound nothing like the composer would have wanted. Bang bang bang -___-


----------



## Lukecash12

TrazomGangflow said:


> Steinways are widely regarded as the best pianos. (their price refelcts that) Is it true that Steinways are the best and are they really worth the price? What is you opinion?


No, I don't think they are *"the best"*. They are what people think of for a recital nowadays, but many Baldwins and Knabes out there are just as well made. I would ask these kinds of questions:

1. What is your taste in pianos, when it comes to timbre, sonority, and pedals? I love older Baldwins and Nelsons because they have sostenuto pedals with a strong affect, they have dark timbre, and a cloudy, dense kind of sonority.
2. What is the intended setting? You certainly wouldn't want a sharp, tinny piano for church, and you wouldn't want to play Mozart at a recital with a heavy monster of a piano, either.

Why are Steinway and Bosendorfer considered the best in class? Well, Bosendorfers certainly are moderate, have just the right amount of crisp timbre to them to sound sensitive and sophisticated, and have renowned tenuto, so they are good for playing Chopin or Pierne. Steinways are showy sounding, have great tenuto, and generally wear their hearts on their sleeves, which is what is pretty popular in music anyways. Really, they seem pretentious and showy to me.

It's great to see Fazioli and Stuart and Sons mentioned as well, because they compete for the title of showman's piano, too.


----------



## Klavierspieler

Ugh. All the Baldwins I've ever played had ridiculously heavy actions.


----------



## Lukecash12

Klavierspieler said:


> Ugh. All the Baldwins I've ever played had ridiculously heavy actions.


Yep, it takes a certain kind of pianist to love them. My personal favorite is Bechstein. How about you?


----------



## Vaneyes

Klavierspieler said:


> Ugh. All the Baldwins I've ever played had ridiculously heavy actions.


My mother played a Baldwin.


----------



## Klavierspieler

Lukecash12 said:


> Yep, it takes a certain kind of pianist to love them. My personal favorite is Bechstein. How about you?


Really high-end Steinway (i.e. $100,000+). Fazioli is good. Off brand companies sometimes produce quite excellent pianos for a much lower price. I have a $20,000 Fandrich & Sons which I would rate as the equal of a $60,000 Steinway.


----------



## Lukecash12

Klavierspieler said:


> Really high-end Steinway (i.e. $100,000+). Fazioli is good. Off brand companies sometimes produce quite excellent pianos for a much lower price. I have a $20,000 Fandrich & Sons which I would rate as the equal of a $60,000 Steinway.


I've not heard of Fandrich & Sons that I remember, but I've probably tuned one or two. Would you mind taking a picture?


----------



## Klavierspieler

Lukecash12 said:


> I've not heard of Fandrich & Sons that I remember, but I've probably tuned one or two. Would you mind taking a picture?


http://www.fandrich.com/


----------



## Nssie

Klavierspieler said:


> Really high-end Steinway (i.e. $100,000+). Fazioli is good. Off brand companies sometimes produce quite excellent pianos for a much lower price. I have a $20,000 Fandrich & Sons which I would rate as the equal of a $60,000 Steinway.


OMG! You're the first person I've met that's got a Fandrich and Sons!, ive never played one, but apparently they are very good. 

my personal favourite would be the older, bigger pianos Yamaha makes, or a Bechstein or Estonia.


----------



## NightHawk

I do like the Steinway, and older Bosendorfers before they sold out to Yamaha and then mostly in Chamber Music, particularly Schubert and Schumann. The newer ones I have heard are brighter and lacking depth of sound. For concertos and just general 19th/20th century power, delicacy and brilliance, I think Steinway is King.









Netflix has this fascinating documentary and traced the building of one Steinway concert grand from start to finish, which they state takes about a year.



kv466 said:


> Hmmm, I like this.
> 
> 'are they really worth the price?' - undoubtedly. the amount of work that goes into making any piano, from any company is totally worth the price...that goes for any finely crafted instrument.
> 
> 'Is it true that Steinways are the best...?' - well, of course, that is a matter of opinion.
> 
> I, personally, do not love the Steinway but then I think of cd318...and some of the other Steinways my favorite pianist recorded and played live with and I think, "man, it just sounds absolutely perfect". So, I reckon, it has a lot to do with some certain things that I am not aware of but just thinking of my acoustic guitars; you can take a guitar fresh out the factory and make it sound completely different (and better) just with a few, minor changes like wood end pins, bone bridge and nut, good tuners and the best strings. So, that being said, I'm sure there are adjustments that can be made so that some Steinways are better than others.
> 
> My personal favorite is Bösendorfer as it has a thick, warm quality that I particularly like...also, it is available with 97 keys and, with instruments, I like to have as much range as possible.
> 
> Close behind is the Baldwin and this is mainly because of my other favorite pianist, EW. I'm not sure which recordings he used which on because I know he's used a few different types of pianos but the ones I know for sure he has played Baldwin on,...the piano sounds great. One of these is his recording of the Complete Chopin Etudes, which is one of my favorites,...to me, the piano sound is exquisite.
> 
> Back to Steinway. It's just a matter of choice. It is as good as claimed. You can call it 'the best' if you want because it, indeed, is one of the best made instruments in the world. I wouldn't want to hear Bach on any other piano.


----------



## Vaneyes

I saw the Steinway doc, also. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes at Steinway that wasn't shown or mentioned in the doc. For instance, the out-front people in sales & marketing that largely account for the company's second-to-none distribution network for concert pianists. Maybe some thought it would shrink the Steinway mystique, if that aspect of the business was covered. And it most certainly is a business.

Not being a piano player, this thread has aroused my curiosity, as to who played what, where, when, why, how, etc. Other than my mother playing Baldwin (as well as Santiago Rodriguez, whom IMO has performed the best Rachmaninov solo since Rachmaninov), I didn't know much more than the info gathered occasionally from CD liner notes. Steinway was the most often mentioned piano.

Researching only took minutes. Like CNN election forecasts, with one percent of the vote in. Like it or not, Steinway is king (Coca-Cola, if you will), with its stranglehold on the "serious music" market.

Knowing that, however, doesn't alter my listening or appreciation of the artists one bit. Most of my piano CDs are Steinway, but the ones with Bosendorfer, Yamaha, Bechstein, etc. are no less valid. Knowing more now than I did, I'll continue to buy because of performance and sound. 

And, lastly but not leastly, let's give a heartfelt round of applause to the tuners and engineers.


----------



## Bagnew

I think that Steinway is the "standard" for a reason, but other brands (Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Fazioli etc.) can be just as good, if not better - I think of it a bit like trumpets - the Bach Stradivarius is the "standard", often blindly recommended, and deservingly so, as they are fine horns. However, there are brands out there which are different and/or better, but do not get recommended so quickly due to either the lack of knowledge of other brands, or other similar factors.


----------



## Romantic Geek

When I was at the University of Connecticut, they purchased a new Steinway, one of the high end ones. After about $20-30k of work to tune it up just right, it was one of the most amazing pianos I have ever heard. I feel honored to play such a beautiful instrument.

As far as the Baldwins, I think they're mostly firewood. Those actions are so heavy I'm pretty sure throwing boulders on the keys wouldn't make them produce a sound.


----------



## Lukecash12

Vaneyes said:


> I saw the Steinway doc, also. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes at Steinway that wasn't shown or mentioned in the doc. For instance, the out-front people in sales & marketing that largely account for the company's second-to-none distribution network for concert pianists. Maybe some thought it would shrink the Steinway mystique, if that aspect of the business was covered. And it most certainly is a business.
> 
> Not being a piano player, this thread has aroused my curiosity, as to who played what, where, when, why, how, etc. Other than my mother playing Baldwin (as well as Santiago Rodriguez, whom IMO has performed the best Rachmaninov solo since Rachmaninov), I didn't know much more than the info gathered occasionally from CD liner notes. Steinway was the most often mentioned piano.
> 
> Researching only took minutes. Like CNN election forecasts, with one percent of the vote in. Like it or not, Steinway is king (Coca-Cola, if you will), with its stranglehold on the "serious music" market.
> 
> Knowing that, however, doesn't alter my listening or appreciation of the artists one bit. Most of my piano CDs are Steinway, but the ones with Bosendorfer, Yamaha, Bechstein, etc. are no less valid. Knowing more now than I did, I'll continue to buy because of performance and sound.
> 
> And, lastly but not leastly, let's give a heartfelt round of applause to the tuners and engineers.


Depends on your area of specialty, actually. Mine is the Russian pedagogy, so I don't listen to Steinways as much as you would think. Richter, Yudina, Ashkenazy, Sofronitsky, Pletnev, Kastelsky, etc. don't play them very much. So far as the modern market is concerned, Steinway is king (while Yamaha looks troublesome), but when it comes to the great recordings of the past, Steinway doesn't have all that much of a presence.


----------



## appoggiatura

Are Steinways the best? It's the same thing as if you would ask: Are Ferraris the best cars? Some will say yes, others prefer Lamborghinis or Aston Martins...

We owned a Bösendorfer an I played on Steinways, a Grotrian Steinweg, an Erard and Yamahas and they all sound beautiful in their own way. Érards and Grotrian Steinweg sound a little bit 'nasal' (I don't know a better word to describe it). Yamahas are fine too. 
Steinways sound flat to me, but they are very all-round and good for every sort of music. 
Also, they have a clean and clear sound.
Yet, Bösendorfers are my favourites to play on. Bösies have a very warm sound. The bass notes make me melt... 

It's all a matter of taste.


----------



## Lukecash12

appoggiatura said:


> Are Steinways the best? It's the same thing as if you would ask: Are Ferraris the best cars? Some will say yes, others prefer Lamborghinis or Aston Martins...
> 
> We owned a Bösendorfer an I played on Steinways, a Grotrian Steinweg, an Erard and Yamahas and they all sound beautiful in their own way. Érards and Grotrian Steinweg sound a little bit 'nasal' (I don't know a better word to describe it). Yamahas are fine too.
> Steinways sound flat to me, but they are very all-round and good for every sort of music.
> Also, they have a clean and clear sound.
> Yet, Bösendorfers are my favourites to play on. Bösies have a very warm sound. The bass notes make me melt...
> 
> It's all a matter of taste.


I'm right there with you. Still wish there were more fruity and warm pianos out there, aside from the period pianofortes.


----------



## glory

Personally, I dont think that steinways are great pianos for the home, or small halls. They are uniquely contructed for large concert halls. 

Having had a discussion with some people about their favorite piano, I was really surprised to find that they didnt have one...oddly, couldnt tell the difference. 

I did find out though, that my personal favorite piano, which is the Baldwin (american made) baby grand from back in the 50's and 60's, has a remarkably beautiful sound, and has not been matched, since. 

It is a shame that this piano, once american made, has been sent to china for construction, and now has a tin sound. BUT! There are still a few left in the USA which can be found, but not easily. When I was 17, I bought a baby grand that a man just 'wanted to get rid of'. It only cost me 200 dollars, because he was desperate to be free of it, and it was a Baldwin baby grand made in America (of course!). 
I tell you, it was beautiful, and if I had known better, or had better funds back then, I would have it in my possession today. It always makes me sad. 
Sometimes I think Story and Clark has a good sound, but not usually. Like I say, though, Steinway is a great piano in a grand concert hall, full grand style...its beautiful! But...not in smaller places. it was obviously, created, for virtuosi, who just have to feel as grand as they are...Beethoven, for example. I think I may have just loved the creature!

Thanks,
Glory


----------



## kv466

^^^ 

('of course'?...a piano is what you make of it and I know a certain Pittsburgh-born virtuoso who did quite a bit with a Baldwin...more than anyone on this site ever could even dream of...)


----------

