# The Greatest Beethoven Conductors



## RalphJohnSteinberg (Jun 3, 2013)

I nominate Furtwaengler as the supreme and unreachable Beethoven conductor.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe, but I'm uncomfortable with recordings pre-1960s and non-stereo. I'd probably go with Szell for a lot of Beethoven, Bernstein for some of it.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

So many great ones. On my list, I would include von Karajan, Kleiber, Fricsay, Szell, Gardiner, Vanska, Furtwangler, Klemperer. There are others I like, but wouldn't call great. And there are no doubt some I have missed, but won't comment on, primarily because I haven't heard them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

John Eliot Gardiner


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

my go-to guy


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> John Eliot Gardiner


No time for frivolity COAG.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DrMike said:


> So many great ones. On my list, I would include von Karajan, Kleiber, Fricsay, Szell, Gardiner, Vanska, Furtwangler, Klemperer. There are others I like, but wouldn't call great. And there are no doubt some I have missed, but won't comment on, primarily because I haven't heard them.


As long as the Kleiber is Erich.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

A second vote for André Cluytens!










Totally underrated giant killer!

/ptr


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I'll add Kletzki and Toscanini


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

DrMike said:


> So many great ones. On my list, I would include von Karajan, Kleiber, Fricsay, Szell, Gardiner, Vanska, Furtwangler, Klemperer. There are others I like, but wouldn't call great. And there are no doubt some I have missed, but won't comment on, primarily because I haven't heard them.


Oh, I forgot von Karajan. Definitely von Karajan. And Solti / Ashkenazy for the piano concertos.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

moody said:


> As long as the Kleiber is Erich.


Ugh _his_ Eroica definitely won't do! It's as if he did not care a thing about Beethoven's dramatic masterpiece! Sloppy and all over the place!


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## GodNickSatan (Feb 28, 2013)

Am I alone in preferring Solti over Karajan? I love Karajan for Brahms, though.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Interesting no one has mentioned Mackerras. His cycle with the Royal Liverpool Orchestra is amazing.

Also Immerseel for period instruments.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ugh _his_ Eroica definitely won't do! It's as if he did not care a thing about Beethoven's dramatic masterpiece! Sloppy and all over the place!


I've literally never heard criticism of this type levelled against him.
Which recording have you based this on, I must listen.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

GodNickSatan said:


> Am I alone in preferring Solti over Karajan? I love Karajan for Brahms, though.


I don't like Karajan for anything whatever.


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## jeanmarc (Dec 23, 2012)

I really want to agree that Furtwangler is the best, but I am also in the same boat as Weston.

Karajan is probably the greatest. Sometimes he's too polished but objectively he'd be my choice. As always, one conductor is never enough.


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## jeanmarc (Dec 23, 2012)

moody said:


> I don't like Karajan for anything whatever.


That's a tad narrow, don't you think? Even for Bruckner?


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I really like the seemingly unpopular Norrington set. I find some of the more traditional 20th Century readings a little over bombastic at times. 

Barenboim's Cycle at the proms last year with his West-Eastern Divan orchestra was sensational.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

jeanmarc said:


> That's a tad narrow, don't you think? Even for Bruckner?


I'm that narrow I wouldn't be listening to Bruckner in the first place.
Narrow....I have Szell,Schuricht ,Erich Kleiber,Bruno Walter,
,Solti, Mitropoulos, Toscanini,Fritz Busch,Carlo Giulini ,Adrian Boult,among others conducting Beethoven and Brahms.
Is that narrow enough for you ?


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

I want to mention that I love Paavo Järvi cycle. Right tempos, small modern orchestra. Maybe he is not the Beethoven master, but it is my favorite cycle anyway :tiphat:


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

moody said:


> I don't like Karajan for anything whatever.


How splendid that We agree on at least one big issue! 

/ptr


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Add Schmidt-Isserstedt.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ptr said:


> How splendid that We agree on at least one big issue!
> 
> /ptr


Actually I haven't found we disagree on many.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The Karajan dust-up has always been somewhat mysterious to me. He did OK while he was working in England, but after he established himself in the engineers' booth, and apparently in the delusion systems of his BP orchestra members... strange things were recorded. A Stokowski wannabe without the magic wand.

Interesting mention of Cluytens. He made some really good recordings of concertos with several soloists; as good as Reiner in that role.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Rene Leibowitz
Leonard Bernstein
Andre Previn
Sir Georg Solti


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Has anyone mentioned Bohm yet? I really like his Pastoral.


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## jeanmarc (Dec 23, 2012)

moody said:


> I'm that narrow I wouldn't be listening to Bruckner in the first place.
> Narrow....I have Szell,Schuricht ,Erich Kleiber,Bruno Walter,
> ,Solti, Mitropoulos, Toscanini,Fritz Busch,Carlo Giulini ,Adrian Boult,among others conducting Beethoven and Brahms.
> Is that narrow enough for you ?


Altogether disregard for Bruckner _is_ a rather narrow taste. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but I suspect you haven't listened to enough Karajan recordings to write him off so absolutely. Criticism is certainly warranted, but to dislike every single one of his recordings? 

Could you perhaps elaborate on your opinion?



> Has anyone mentioned Bohm yet? I really like his Pastoral.


Yes! I've listened to this but have yet to obtain a CD for myself. EMI, right? Goodman's sixth has always been a go-to of mine, but I've also found Vanska's performance to be superb.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

^^ The thought of listening to every one of Karajan's recordings raises the gorge. Surely that is unnecessary?


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## jeanmarc (Dec 23, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> ^^ The thought of listening to every one of Karajan's recordings raises the gorge. Surely that is unnecessary?


Never said it was.  Still waiting for that elaboration, mate.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Some excellant conductors have been mentioned. I haven't anyone new to add so I will repeat one: Klempler,esp. for the 5th. Let me also say, I am not picking him for the best because I have no idea who that would be. Much too hard. I chose him mainly because I started w/klempler on my Beethoven listning. I know there are probably better ones but I love the raw passion he seems to give to this composer.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Of the recordings I have:

Klemperer is always interesting if slow. Listen to the magnificently truculent 1955 7th. Fascinating.
Toscanini is great but by the time he recorded the last NBC set, he was rather past his best. But that was still great.
Norrington is interesting if over-literal at times. Gardener can be really exciting.
Chailly is wonderfully played and engineered but too fast and relentless for me.
Kleiber's 5th and 7th are legendary.
Harnoncourt is also a very good set, a combination of period on modern instruments.
For me Karajan is the best all round. I have the 63 set complemented with some of the 77. I can never understand the brickbats levelled at HvK for his music making. I wonder whether people are listening to the music or looking at the name. These two Beethoven sets are both ground breaking for their day and also have provided a benchmark for years to come.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Karajan, in many things for me, is rather ho-hum. That being said, he does have some recordings that truly stand out for me. These include:
Beethoven 9, 1962 recording - DG
Beethoven Triple Concerto/Brahms Double Concerto - EMI
Mozart Horn Concertos (with Dennis Brain) - EMI
Strauss' 4 Letzte Lieder with Janowitz - DG

While I recognize several as great Beethoven conductors, my favorite overall symphony cycle - in terms of the musicianship and the sound quality - has to be the BIS cycle with Osmo Vanska leading the Minnesota Orchestra. That is the one I keep coming back to.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Karajan, in many things for me, is rather ho-hum. That being said, he does have some recordings that truly stand out for me. These include:
> Beethoven 9, 1962 recording - DG
> Beethoven Triple Concerto/Brahms Double Concerto - EMI
> Mozart Horn Concertos (with Dennis Brain) - EMI
> ...


I'd like to add Mozart's Piano Quintet with Walter Gieseking and the Philharmonia Wind Quartet (available on testament) to the list of Karajan favorites, because it otherwise matches so perfectly my preferences


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## jeanmarc (Dec 23, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Karajan, in many things for me, is rather ho-hum. That being said, he does have some recordings that truly stand out for me. These include:
> Beethoven 9, 1962 recording - DG
> Beethoven Triple Concerto/Brahms Double Concerto - EMI
> Mozart Horn Concertos (with Dennis Brain) - EMI
> ...


That's the one I was referring to earlier.  Don't you love his rendition of the Sixth? Such a right performance with such great sound creates this marvelous texture that so few conductors achieve with it.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

HvK, Walter, C. Kleiber, Solti, Szell.


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> HvK, Walter, C. Kleiber, Solti, Szell.


Yes, Kleiber's 5 and 7 especially


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Add Schmidt-Isserstedt.


Yes. His recordings of Beethoven's 3rd and 9th symphonies with the VPO are favorites of mine.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

jeanmarc said:


> Altogether disregard for Bruckner _is_ a rather narrow taste. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but I suspect you haven't listened to enough Karajan recordings to write him off so absolutely. Criticism is certainly warranted, but to dislike every single one of his recordings?
> 
> Could you perhaps elaborate on your opinion?
> 
> Yes! I've listened to this but have yet to obtain a CD for myself. EMI, right? Goodman's sixth has always been a go-to of mine, but I've also found Vanska's performance to be superb.


I have no obligation to elaborate at all, but...I bought Karajan's famous 1960s Beethoven Symphonies box which was on special offer everywhere for the next 25 years minimum. Which explains a lot.
After 30 years I realised that I had played three works and could not bear to play any more so disposed of it.
Karajan and his orchestra was like a great ,shiny Cadillac type of chromium mass rolling along.
Their erstwhile lead flautist,James Galway, testified that the man would let nothing obtrude from the surface.
I have listened to quite enough Karajan to know that he doesn't interest me,he does nothing for me,can you understand that?
Also I have 65 years of listening to music and the legendary musicians,my second concert was Toscanini I find that I don't need to question my tastes gathered along the way.
Mind you I do have one excellent Karajan recording,a double LP of Prussian Marches---suits him down to the ground.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Cheyenne said:


> I'd like to add Mozart's Piano Quintet with Walter Gieseking and the Philharmonia Wind Quartet (available on testament) to the list of Karajan favorites, because it otherwise matches so perfectly my preferences


Am I being dumb,how is this a Karajan favourite ?


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## ethanjamesescano (Aug 29, 2012)

How about Otto Klemperer?

Listen to Beethoven's Symphony no. 5 available on Youtube


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## jeanmarc (Dec 23, 2012)

moody said:


> I have no obligation to elaborate at all, but...I bought Karajan's famous 1960s Beethoven Symphonies box which was on special offer everywhere for the next 25 years minimum. Which explains a lot.
> After 30 years I realised that I had played three works and could not bear to play any more so disposed of it.
> Karajan and his orchestra was like a great ,shiny Cadillac type of chromium mass rolling along.
> Their erstwhile lead flautist,James Galway, testified that the man would let nothing obtrude from the surface.
> ...


Nothing personal, don't take my remarks as attacks please. I was just curious and was hoping to expand upon the conversation, rather than have everyone merely throw names onto the screen à la Vaneyes.  Thank you for sharing.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

moody said:


> I've literally never heard criticism of this type levelled against him.
> Which recording have you based this on, I must listen.


VPO 1959









In class we were doing an analysis on the Eroica symphony and we used this recording (on CD though) much to many people's dismay. I hadn't heard Beethoven conducted by Erich Kleiber prior to hearing this and it really put me off. I haven't heard this recording since it killed my ears several months ago, but from what I remember Mr. Kleiber had exaggerated sforzandos to the point where it sounded jerky, unnatural and the music ceased to breathe properly. Mr. Kleiber didn't phrase off _any_ melody or fragment of a melody properly which made the playing sound robotic. Mr. Kleiber seemed to pay no attention to keeping the orchestra together and the playing was sloppy and all over the place. Intonation was bad, the conductor couldn't seem to decide on the tempo and the orchestra kept speeding up and slowing down slightly here and there. The balance between the instruments was completely out of whack, the first violins were by far the loudest throughout the entire recording, the strings completely overpowered the timpani, brass and woodwind. The only time I actually heard the trumpets was for a few seconds in the second movement! I would expect better audio engineering from 1959!!! Many other students agreed with me after hearing it that it was quite a bad recording.

I haven't heard any other recordings of Erich Kleiber conducting Beethoven, if anyone else knows one that is much much better than this dreadful rendering please let me know. This recording has put me off his other interpretations, but I hope they are better.


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## Ryan (Dec 29, 2012)

Erm... Beethoven.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

People's thoughts on Paavo Järvi? I haven't heard much of his Beethoven, only things available on YouTube and I think he is terrific as a Beethoven interpreter.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> People's thoughts on Paavo Järvi? I haven't heard much of his Beethoven, only things available on YouTube and I think he is terrific as a Beethoven interpreter.


I really enjoy his recent recordings of the symphonies with the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen on RCA. I think it is one of the finer recent Beethoven cycles - though I wouldn't rate it as high as Vanska. Still, all in all, you couldn't go wrong with these recordings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> I have no obligation to elaborate at all, but...I bought Karajan's famous 1960s Beethoven Symphonies box which was on special offer everywhere for the next 25 years minimum. Which explains a lot.
> After 30 years I realised that I had played three works and could not bear to play any more so disposed of it.
> Karajan and his orchestra was like a great ,shiny Cadillac type of chromium mass rolling along.
> Their erstwhile lead flautist,James Galway, testified that the man would let nothing obtrude from the surface.
> ...


Moody. You don't need to question your tastes but don't mind if others will!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Moody. You don't need to question your tastes but don't mind if others will!


I certainly do mind,especially when it's a matter of taste.

If I say I don't liked x ,that's it I don't like him--finish.
Anyway ,what's your problem I explained as requested.
I believe that you indicared that you liked Karajan, I don't need an explanation from you I note it in passing.
Nobody has to explain anything unless they wish to.
Though to describe his efforts as ground breaking makes my head whirl.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> VPO 1959
> 
> View attachment 19494
> 
> ...


I have listened to the recording that was made in 1955 in fact.
I cannot recognise your description of the performance,the whole thing is very together and excellent in every way.
You might like to try his recording made with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra which has been refurbished in the new Resound technology it can be found on YouTube and is an even better performance.
All Kleiber's recordings are still available and you should ask why,the answer is that they are all of such a high standard.
"Kleiber,that tough,stubborn,difficult ,disciplinarian previously conducted theworld premiere of Berg's "Wozzeck",after blood,sweat,tears and thirty four full orchestral rehearsals. 'when Kleiber comes into this theatre sighed a manager at a German opera house, 'there's trouble with a capital T'.
He was music director at he Berlin state Opera,1923-34.
He used to conduct Toscanini's NBC Orchestra when Toscanini was away and nobody was allowed to conduct that orchestra unless they were approved by the great man !


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> I certainly do mind,especially when it's a matter of taste.
> 
> If I say I don't liked x ,that's it I don't like him--finish.
> Anyway ,what's your problem I explained as requested.
> ...


Your taste - you have no need to explain it though it frankly baffles me. But that point is subjective.

What is not is the ground-breaking nature of Karajan's 63 set. It was the first Beethoven 9 to be recorded and issued as a set. Even an acknowledged Karajan hater like Lebrecht acknowledges this. This is not subjective taste - it is history.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> I have listened to the recording that was made in 1955 in fact.
> I cannot recognise your description of the performance,the whole thing is very together and excellent in every way.
> You might like to try his recording made with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra which has been refurbished in the new Resound technology it can be found on YouTube and is an even better performance.
> All Kleiber's recordings are still available and you should ask why,the answer is that they are all of such a high standard.
> ...


Moody, the fact you describe the performance as 'excellent' and our Composer deems it 'dreadful' shows us the highly subjective nature of musical taste.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Your taste - you have no need to explain it though it frankly baffles me. But that point is subjective.
> 
> What is not is the ground-breaking nature of Karajan's 63 set. It was the first Beethoven 9 to be recorded and issued as a set. Even an acknowledged Karajan hater like Lebrecht acknowledges this. This is not subjective taste - it is history.


Well both you and Mr.Lebrecht aren't too good at history.
Bruno Walter recorded the symphonies in California with a hand picked orchestra for CBS. 1958/9.
But he'd already done it a few years before with the New York Phil


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Moody, the fact you describe the performance as 'excellent' and our Composer deems it 'dreadful' shows us the highly subjective nature of musical taste.


Actually everyone describes it as excellent apart from COAG.
Now Kleiber's excellence is a matter of history.
I suggest you let it go and check your facts before leaping into action against me,I'm not really interested in the old Karajan nonsense,it has all been done before.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Actually everyone describes it as excellent apart from COAG.
> Now Kleiber's excellence is a matter of history.
> I suggest you let it go and check your facts before leaping into action against me,I'm not really interested in the old Karajan nonsense,it has all been done before.


Interesting. When you give a subjective opinion it suddenly becomes 'history' because a mythical 'everyone' agrees with it.
History doesn't work like that.
And frankly your opinion of Karajan has also been done to death. It is not nonsense to give my (subjective) opinion that he was a great conductor. It is my opinion. Shared by a legion of other people, btw, who bought his recordings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Well both you and Mr.Lebrecht aren't too good at history.
> Bruno Walter recorded the symphonies in California with a hand picked orchestra for CBS. 1958/9.
> But he'd already done it a few years before with the New York Phil


But so had Toscanini. And HvK himself.

To quote Richard Osborne:
"For the first time in the history of the gramophone the recordings were planned as an integral cycle and released as an 8 LP subscription set. This caused something of a sensation.'


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I recently got the HvK EMI orchestral box. There's a great deal of wonderful performances in there. A few of them (like the Mozart Horn Concertos) are as good as it gets for me.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Carlos Kleiber's Fifth is incredible!

Karajan's 63 9th is also out there!


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

bigshot said:


> I recently got the HvK EMI orchestral box. There's a great deal of wonderful performances in there. A few of them (like the Mozart Horn Concertos) are as good as it gets for me.


Is it on amazon?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> But so had Toscanini. And HvK himself.
> 
> To quote Richard Osborne:
> "For the first time in the history of the gramophone the recordings were planned as an integral cycle and released as an 8 LP subscription set. This caused something of a sensation.'


I laugh at the way you ignore as usual the facts when they are presented to you.
Even your post above proves your "groundbreaking" claim to be false.
I would have thought that choosing a special orchestra for Walter and recording all the Beethoven symphonies over a short period could be described as integral,don't you think ?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Interesting. When you give a subjective opinion it suddenly becomes 'history' because a mythical 'everyone' agrees with it.
> History doesn't work like that.
> And frankly your opinion of Karajan has also been done to death. It is not nonsense to give my (subjective) opinion that he was a great conductor. It is my opinion. Shared by a legion of other people, btw, who bought his recordings.


So the legion of other people is superior to my mythical everyone.
My opinion of Karajan that has been "done to death" by presumably many other people is invalid,what does "done to death " actually mean and who were they who have done it to death ?
Thousands of listeners cannot bear Karajan,s interpretations are you really not aware of that ? I must question what experience you have in all of this.
The 1963 box set was sold at a discount through every newspaper and magazine in the land so the subscription claim is strange.
At least one thread ran and ran longer than most others on this very subject here on TC and became very heated.
In the film of great conductors a famous British composer described him as evil.
Why would you think that I would have no Karajan recordings now,because I decided to pick on him ?
Incidentally I can find no evidence that he had recorded the symphonies prior to 1963,perhaps you could provide details.
Finally,it was not the first Beethoven 9 to be recorded as a set according to your new claims much less mine and certainly not "earthbreaking".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> I laugh at the way you ignore as usual the facts when they are presented to you.
> Even your post above proves your "groundbreaking" claim to be false.
> I would have thought that choosing a special orchestra for Walter and recording all the Beethoven symphonies over a short period could be described as integral,don't you think ?


Please read what I put and Osbourne's quote. Toscanini had recorded the symphonies before with a hand-picked orchestra and so had Karajan. But look at the quote please.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> So the legion of other people is superior to my mythical everyone.
> My opinion of Karajan that has been "done to death" by presumably many other people is invalid,what does "done to death " actually mean and who were they who have done it to death ?
> Thousands of listeners cannot bear Karajan,s interpretations are you really not aware of that ? I must question what experience you have in all of this.
> The 1963 box set was sold at a discount through every newspaper and magazine in the land so the subscription claim is strange.
> ...


Who are these 'thousands' you know who cannot bear Karajan's interpretations? Particularly the 63 Beethoven set. In 50 years of reading recording magazines and reviews I have found it a set that is generally admired. We do know thousands of people bought the set which has never been out of the catalogue in one incarnation or another.
Just to get the facts straight, to quote Osbourne:
'The price £14.8s0d was merely a multiplication by eight of the cost of a premium price LP.'
ie the set was put out by DG at premium price. In spite of that the sales were enormous, which they had to be to cover the huge investment. Even if the set were offered at discount in the land (this is the first I have heard about that - have you any reference?) how does that effect the quality of the music making? I remember most reviews being enthusiastic though of course Klemperer and his slower interpretations were in vogue then.
Because a composer described Karajan as 'evil' how does that effect his prowess as a conductor? A member of a British orchestra described Solti in similar terms. Toscanini was described as 'the devil'. And Szell and Reiner? Unrepeatable!
As to him recording the symphonies before 1963 there was a famous Philharmonia set recorded in the 50s wasn't there? 
I have told you the way this set of Beethoven symphonies were 'groundbreaking'. 
If you don't like them that is fine by me. I will enjoy them together with the many thousands of others who have bought them.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Who are these 'thousands' you know who cannot bear Karajan's interpretations? Particularly the 63 Beethoven set. In 50 years of reading recording magazines and reviews I have found it a set that is generally admired. We do know thousands of people bought the set which has never been out of the catalogue in one incarnation or another.
> Just to get the facts straight, to quote Osbourne:
> 'The price £14.8s0d was merely a multiplication by eight of the cost of a premium price LP.'
> ie the set was put out by DG at premium price. In spite of that the sales were enormous, which they had to be to cover the huge investment. Even if the set were offered at discount in the land (this is the first I have heard about that - have you any reference?) how does that effect the quality of the music making? I remember most reviews being enthusiastic though of course Klemperer and his slower interpretations were in vogue then.
> ...


As I have already indicated there is no conductor that has caused more controversy than Karajan. If you are not aware of this you obviously live in a dreamworld somewhere. But of course you are aware of it as we see in post 31 where you say that you don't understand the brickbats levelled at Karajan.
My reference to marketing and discounts was to explain the wide distribution of the set...that's what marketing is for and I have never seen such a campaign in the classical world since.
The "evil" remark was to illustrate the type of reaction that attends the man and coming from another conductor and composer it is different from a remark made by an orchestral member.
I would remind you that my original remark was that I didn't like Karajan in anything whatever--that's subjective and mine.
I am supported on this thread by a number of people I see.
Lastly,one small point you refer to "Our Composer" which is unfair to a number of members.For instance Steven O'Brien who is not still at school and actually makes a living by composing.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> As I have already indicated there is no conductor that has caused more controversy than Karajan. If you are not aware of this you obviously live in a dreamworld somewhere. But of course you are aware of it as we see in post 31 where you say that you don't understand the brickbats levelled at Karajan.
> My reference to marketing and discounts was to explain the wide distribution of the set...that's what marketing is for and I have never seen such a campaign in the classical world since.
> The "evil" remark was to illustrate the type of reaction that attends the man and coming from another conductor and composer it is different from a remark made by an orchestral member.
> I would remind you that my original remark was that I didn't like Karajan in anything whatever--that's subjective and mine.
> ...


Because a Conductor causes controversy it doesn't mean to say he is a bad conductor. Bernstein also caused a whole load of controversy if my reading is right of the reviews of his conducting. It doesn't matter how many people support you in your opinion it is still subjective. There are a whole load of people who would say the opposite and have proved it by putting their money on the recordings. 
It surely doesn't matter who says someone is 'evil' - a conductor or composer is no more likely to be right on the judgement of character than the cleaner! In fact I remark like that made by another musician is likely to be in the context of professional jealousy.
When I say I don't understand the brickbats delivered at HvK I meant in the context we are talking about of his Beethoven conducting. To me it is some of the finest Beethoven conducting in the history of the gramophone. Equally I cannot understand the praise for Furtwangler's Bayreuth 9th. Even the conductor said he was disappointed with it! But my opinion is also subjective.
As to your 'Composer' objection - please note that it was in the context of the writer of the post I was quoting - ie ComposerOfAvantGarde. I abbreviated. I did feel that people could work that out for themselves without anyone feeling I was being unfair to them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'd just like to say that I don't really like HvK's Beethoven.................


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

@Moody, the tone of your posts make it seem like it is okay to find HvK unbearable but anyone who doesn't like Erich Kleiber's 1959 Eroica is automatically deemed stupid.


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## Picander (May 8, 2013)

My first choice would be Karajan, but I'm enjoying Christian Thielemann's recordings (blu-ray).


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Picander said:


> My first choice would be Karajan, but I'm enjoying Christian Thielemann's recordings (blu-ray).


Not surprised at all, Thielemann is like a Karajan Xerox, but even more black and white without nuances!

The problem with Beethoven's Symphonies is that all of the great conductors throughout the history of recordings have recorded them some or all of them, and every time one mentions a name, I've fx. never liked Toscanini's Beethoven, I can intellectually "understand" what he is doing and be in aw of his meticulous control, but it do not make me feel anything Beethoven. (I which I could put better words on what I miss!), of the conductors who left a recorded legacy that where born in the second half of the 19th century, I seem to respond better to fx. Erich Kleiber (mentioned often by Mr Moody), Eduard van Beinum, Willem Mengelberg, Václav Talich, to name a few great conductors that all where great Beetovians!

I just love the pluralistic world that allow me to sample most recordings ever made. Being a mad collector type, I could ever imagine to understand someone who would settle for only one interpretation of a musical work! 

/ptr


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ptr said:


> Not surprised at all, Thielemann is like a Karajan Xerox, but even more black and white without nuances!
> 
> The problem with Beethoven's Symphonies is that all of the great conductors throughout the history of recordings have recorded them some or all of them, and every time one mentions a name, I've fx. never liked Toscanini's Beethoven, I can intellectually "understand" what he is doing and be in aw of his meticulous control, but it do not make me feel anything Beethoven. (I which I could put better words on what I miss!), of the conductors who left a recorded legacy that where born in the second half of the 19th century, I seem to respond better to fx. Erich Kleiber (mentioned often by Mr Moody), Eduard van Beinum, Willem Mengelberg, Václav Talich, to name a few great conductors that all where great Beetovians!
> 
> ...


Interesting. I haven't heard Theilmann's Beethoven but reviews gave me the impression it was more like Furtwangler's than HvK. So it's interesting how different people view it.
From what I have heard of Mengelberg it's the sort of interpretation I don't like at all. van Beinum is very plain to me.
The younger Kleiber's fifth is even better than his day's - and a lot better recorded!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> @Moody, the tone of your posts make it seem like it is okay to find HvK unbearable but anyone who doesn't like Erich Kleiber's 1959 Eroica is automatically deemed stupid.


You can read what you want into "tone", I can't say that stupid is a word I would use about you. In this case just wrong and the evidence is there any body can listen to it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> You can read what you want into "tone", I can't say that stupid is a word I would use about you. In this case just wrong and the evidence is there any body can listen to it.


Anyone can listen, Moody, but coming to a different conclusion than you does not automatically make them wrong.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Anyone can listen, Moody, but coming to a different conclusion than you does not automatically make them wrong.


How amusing,then what is the point of all your fuss about Karajan and my opinion ?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> How amusing,then what is the point of all your fuss about Karajan and my opinion ?


No fuss whatever.

I am just disagreeing with your opinion.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Interesting. I haven't heard Theilmann's Beethoven but reviews gave me the impression it was more like Furtwangler's than HvK. So it's interesting how different people view it.


For me, both of them wanted to be Furhwängler but failed, no shame in that! (My Thielemann description is wide stroked, if You compare him with Furtwängler he fails even more at bringing a personality to the table...  ) ...



> From what I have heard of Mengelberg it's the sort of interpretation I don't like at all. van Beinum is very plain to me.
> The younger Kleiber's fifth is even better than his day's - and a lot better recorded!


..that is quite in order, we have probably got quite different expectations, I like used to revere Carlos K's Beethoven, but the older I get the more variation I like there to be, I'm not saying that his has gone bad, but rather that I lost interest in it!

I'm not claiming to be correct or right, I just want to be opinionated... 

/ptr


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2013)

Alright, we all get it. Some people like Karajan, others can't stand him. Regardless of subjective opinion, though, clearly numerous record labels saw in him a money maker, as we has numerous recordings with multiple labels (at least EMI and DG). Now, I know that popularity has no bearing on talent, but I think it is hard to argue that at least a significant portion of the classical music-listening audience finds something in Karajan's recordings worth plunking their money down for. He held the baton for ~60 years. Like him or not, it seems rather ridiculous to claim that he made no lasting contribution to the classical music world.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

ptr said:


> Not surprised at all, Thielemann is like a Karajan Xerox, but even more black and white without nuances!
> 
> The problem with Beethoven's Symphonies is that all of the great conductors throughout the history of recordings have recorded them some or all of them, and every time one mentions a name, I've fx. never liked Toscanini's Beethoven, I can intellectually "understand" what he is doing and be in aw of his meticulous control, but it do not make me feel anything Beethoven. (I which I could put better words on what I miss!), of the conductors who left a recorded legacy that where born in the second half of the 19th century, I seem to respond better to fx. Erich Kleiber (mentioned often by Mr Moody), Eduard van Beinum, *Willem Mengelberg*, Václav Talich, to name a few great conductors that all where great Beetovians!
> 
> ...


Nice to see him mentioned. Bernstein and Scherchen should be here too, and there are interesting Beethoven symphonies by Leibowitz, Beecham, Dorati, Casals, Mravinsky (4th only), Kletzki (2nd), Munch (9th) too, for example.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Because a Conductor causes controversy it doesn't mean to say he is a bad conductor. Bernstein also caused a whole load of controversy if my reading is right of the reviews of his conducting. It doesn't matter how many people support you in your opinion it is still subjective. There are a whole load of people who would say the opposite and have proved it by putting their money on the recordings.
> It surely doesn't matter who says someone is 'evil' - a conductor or composer is no more likely to be right on the judgement of character than the cleaner! In fact I remark like that made by another musician is likely to be in the context of professional jealousy.
> When I say I don't understand the brickbats delivered at HvK I meant in the context we are talking about of his Beethoven conducting. To me it is some of the finest Beethoven conducting in the history of the gramophone. Equally I cannot understand the praise for Furtwangler's Bayreuth 9th. Even the conductor said he was disappointed with it! But my opinion is also subjective.
> As to your 'Composer' objection - please note that it was in the context of the writer of the post I was quoting - ie ComposerOfAvantGarde. I abbreviated. I did feel that people could work that out for themselves without anyone feeling I was being unfair to them.


It was John Elliott Gardiner,your exciting conductor,and he said :"There are almost no surprises because he makes everything sound like a formula.He was self regarding and there was something almost evil about him ".
I did not say at any point that controversy made someone a bad conductor, that would put me into big trouble regarding one of my favourites ,Stokowski.
Bernstein caused some controversy ,but I do not not remember examples of personal dislike.
You twist and turn and alter the meaning of your posts to fit your latest thoughts and to answer criticism. It is pretty well impossible to have a sensible discussion with you,but I already new that didn't I ?
As for the composer business, why don't you just call him COAG as everybody else ?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> You twist and turn and alter the meaning of your posts to fit your latest thoughts and to answer criticism. It is pretty well impossible to have a sensible discussion with you,but I already new that didn't I ?
> As for the composer business, why don't you just call him COAG as everybody else ?


Moody. I feel exactly the same about you. So let's leave it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Moody. I feel exactly the same about you. So let's leave it.


Believe me that will be a pleasure !!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Believe me that will be a pleasure !!


The pleasure, Sir, is all mine!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Notung said:


> Is it on amazon?


Yes, here...

http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-von-Karajan-Recordings-Orchestral/dp/B000ZBPQEO/

There is an opera box as well, but I already have a lot of that. I'm considering the DGG Karajan 60s box. Another whopper of core rep.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

bigshot said:


> Yes, here...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-von-Karajan-Recordings-Orchestral/dp/B000ZBPQEO/
> 
> There is an opera box as well, but I already have a lot of that. I'm considering the DGG Karajan 60s box. Another whopper of core rep.


Would it be appropriate to think of you as a music gourmand?


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## DaveS (Apr 30, 2013)

I've been curious about all the remarks about the Cluytens /BPO versions, so went to YouTube and listened to their performance of the 7th. Really enjoyed it, although I though the middle of the 3rd movement kinda drug on. This is probably my favorite of the Beethoven symphonies, and I thought Mr. Cluytens did a fine job. May have to go for the boxed set. Here's the video if anyone else is interested.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks _DaveS_. That performance is easy to like.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Would it be appropriate to think of you as a music gourmand?


One has to prioritize these things... 1) Art, 2) Music, 3) Film. Sex and food bring up the rear.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Since this is not limited to the symphonies, I'd have to go with Klemperer since he conducts desert island recordings of Fidelio and Missa Solemnis (and his mono 50s symphony cycle is solid).

Surprisingly I didn't catch anyone singing the praises of the Abbado cycle which received a lot of cudos from critics a few years ago.


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## Picander (May 8, 2013)

I agree, maybe Thielemann doesn't have care for the nuances in these recordings, but almost every interpretation is clear as crystal: I can hear everything, every voice, every motif, every instrument or family of instruments I want to hear in each moment.

From my point of view, music itself is about 95% of any performance, and the nuances of the interpretation are 5%, but I think each melomane has their own point of view, and I'm ok with this.

By the way, I'm enjoying too his Missa Solemnis (blu-ray).


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## DaveS (Apr 30, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks _DaveS_. That performance is easy to like.


I just received the set, and I love what I am haring so far. The 1st and 3rd. Yes, very easy to like.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> @Moody, the tone of your posts make it seem like it is okay to find HvK unbearable but anyone who doesn't like Erich Kleiber's 1959 Eroica is automatically deemed stupid.


Can you recommend a good release of it? I'd love love to hear it.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

bigshot said:


> Yes, here...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-von-Karajan-Recordings-Orchestral/dp/B000ZBPQEO/
> 
> There is an opera box as well, but I already have a lot of that. I'm considering the DGG Karajan 60s box. Another whopper of core rep.


I too was considering it. But now the 70's box is coming out, so I'm not sure which to get.


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

Immerseel and Hogwood.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Notung said:


> I too was considering it. But now the 70's box is coming out, so I'm not sure which to get.


Earlier Karajan is better Karajan. EMI is the best. Then 60s. Then 70s. Then skip it.


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## jimsumner (Jul 7, 2013)

Am I the only one who thinks Bernard Haitink belongs in the discussion? Two very good symphony cycles and some outstanding concerto recordings with folks like Perahia, Szeryng, Krebbers, Arrau and others.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

jimsumner said:


> Am I the only one who thinks Bernard Haitink belongs in the discussion? Two very good symphony cycles and some outstanding concerto recordings with folks like Perahia, Szeryng, Krebbers, Arrau and others.


Haitink to me is a bit 'lean beef' in the symphonies. A good man to accompany you though as a soloist.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> Earlier Karajan is better Karajan. EMI is the best. Then 60s. Then 70s. Then skip it.


Interesting. This is the perceived wisdom. I would go for 63 as the best cycle all round.

I did buy the digital Eroica in a sale and really it is very good indeed, especially the funeral march. So even in his dotage the old man was still producing very good recordings. One of his problems was the incredibly high standard he set. The other was his own character. I mean, no-one likes success like he had and there were so many jealous minds looking on!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The greatest Beethoven conductor I've ever heard was Arturo Toscanini. Dismal sound unfortunately.

Honorable mention: Gunter Wand.


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