# Anarchist Composers?



## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm really sorry if this is a stupid thread, I really am...but I'm curious as to if there have been any famous composers who have labeled themselves as anarchists. I ask because I'm very interested in the train of thought associated with anarchism, and I'm very curious to see how that would reflect upon someone's music, especially if they were expressive and direct with it. I'm not referring to "musical anarchists" like Shoenberg, but literally anarchists of the political nature who composed. I'm already familiar with a few (including John Cage), but I'd like to broaden my taste.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well Schoenberg said he was like 'a conservative forced to become a radical.' He saw himself as streching back to J.S. Bach, through the other two B's and Mozart, Haydn and also Wagner, and so on. It varies what people today think of him but Schoenberg saw himself as an extension of tradition, not a subverter of it.

I think John Cage did like to subvert tradition, so there you might be on firmer ground.

But what this brings to my mind most strongly is the Futurist movement of early 20th century. Look at the Futurist Manifesto by Marinetti:
http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/T4PM/futurist-manifesto.html

Although its got heaps of jargon and poetic gobbledigook, what makes me think of anarchy - smashing the icons of the past - is the first 'tenet' of Futurism listed at the bottom, "We want to sing the love of danger, the habit of energy and rashness." A prominent composer of that movement was Luigi Russolo.

There where Russian futurists as well, leading up to the Bolshevik revolution (well, coup actually, but anyway) and beyond. But eventually it was snuffed out by the strictures of Stalinism. The big name in Russian futurism was Mosolov, look for his 'Iron Foundry' piece.

& with that, a whole lot of 'bad boys' or enfants terribles of music at the time, in their younger years at least, like Prokofiev (his 'Scythian Suite' made Glazunov walk out of the hall on its premiere) and over in America, George Antheil (listen to his 'Ballet Mecanique').

That's what comes to my mind but doubtless others will come to the party with more things. Good to have a thread about music again after all that other stuff clogging the arteries so to speak.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Well Schoenberg said he was like 'a conservative forced to become a radical.' He saw himself as streching back to J.S. Bach, through the other two B's and Mozart, Haydn and also Wagner, and so on. It varies what people today think of him but Schoenberg saw himself as an extension of tradition, not a subverter of it.
> 
> I think John Cage did like to subvert tradition, so there you might be on firmer ground.
> 
> ...


He doesn't mean composers of anarchistic music (as in breaking or deviating from traditional or mainstream ways). He means composers who held the anarchist political viewpoint. I can't really think of any in that regard. I don't think Cage would fit into that.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> He doesn't mean composers of anarchistic music (as in breaking or deviating from traditional or mainstream ways). He means composers who held the anarchist political viewpoint. I can't really think of any in that regard. I don't think Cage would fit into that.


Didn't Cage classify himself as an anarchist?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

oogabooha said:


> Didn't Cage classify himself as an anarchist?


Maybe? I don't recall ever reading that in any of his essays, or hearing him say that in the interviews I've seen.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> Maybe? I don't recall ever reading that in any of his essays, or hearing him say that in the interviews I've seen.


"Cage: I'm an anarchist. I don't know whether the adjective is pure and simple, or philosophical, or what, but I don't like government! And I don't like institutions! And I don't have any confidence in even good institutions."
http://www.ubu.com/papers/cage_montague_interview.html

It's certainly interesting to think about that, given the nature of his music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I don't know if Cage saw himself as an anarchist, I mean I think his ideology is hard to pin down from what I have read, but there is a work I know where he kind of subverts tradition. & that to me in the still quite conservative climate of AMerica in the 1940's speaks to some form of anarchy. The work is 'Credo in Us' and I love it, I did a review (with clip) of it here:
http://www.talkclassical.com/4342-john-cage-3.html#post189265


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Wagner was an anarchist in his youth. He associated with the likes of Bakunin and was instrumental in the Dresden uprising of 1849, where he stood in a watchtower. The revolution failed and he fled to Switzerland while most of his comrades were sentenced to life imprisonment. Later he mellowed considerably.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I don't know if Cage saw himself as an anarchist, I mean I think his ideology is hard to pin down from what I have read, but there is a work I know where he kind of subverts tradition. & that to me in the still quite conservative climate of AMerica in the 1940's speaks to some form of anarchy. The work is 'Credo in Us' and I love it, I did a review (with clip) of it here:
> http://www.talkclassical.com/4342-john-cage-3.html#post189265


I posted a quote above your post from Cage that says that he identified as an anarchist...



emiellucifuge said:


> Wagner was an anarchist in his youth. He associated with the likes of Bakunin and was instrumental in the Dresden uprising of 1849, where he stood in a watchtower. The revolution failed and he fled to Switzerland while most of his comrades were sentenced to life imprisonment. Later he mellowed considerably.


oh wow, I didn't know that. I'm not a huge fan of Wagner, but I do know that he had some compositions from before then (although weren't most of them lost?)...which ones would you recommend?


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Here is a list of Anarchist musicians from Wikipedia. John Cage is on the list. There were a few other composers listed as well, but none of them are well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_musicians


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

oogabooha said:


> ...I posted a quote above your post from Cage that says that he identified as an anarchist...
> 
> ...


Well he also identified with Zen philosophy (from Asia) which is different altogther. But he said many things, and many come across as contradictory to me. Maybe like his music, he didn't want to be put in a neat pigeonhole. Of course he's not the only one, reading what composers say, esp. over a long period of time (decades) one is bound to get some level of inconsistency.

But as I said about 'Credo in Us,' it does come across as having strong elements of subverting tradition, and I associate that in musical terms with a type of anarchy.

Re BAkunin, yes he was the 'big daddy' of anarchism in 19th century Russia, but of course that went nowhere once Bolshevism happened, and later Stalin. I think though that anarchists where behind the assassination of Tsar Alexander II. Of course, Tsarist regime also supressed political groups against them, anarchists included. But I don't want to make this into a discussion of anarchist history/politics as against music, I was just giving some thoughts on that.

But why I mentioned Russian and Italian Futurism is that they aimed to sweep away the cobwebs of the past and build a future, much of it on utopian visions of technology and progress. Of course, the First World War with its horrible carnage kind of was a downer for that ideology, it bought home the reality of the dark side of 'progress.'

But I remember late one night listening to a radio program of Futurist music from around/after WW1 and it came across as way ahead of its time. Some of it reminded me of things like Varese and Stockhausen where to do decades later, and all that electronic and musique concrete coming to the fore after 1945. Amazing stuff, and there have been recordings done of that kind of thing. As I mentioned, Mosolov's 'Iron Foundry' is a piece that is similar to those things, but some of those other things were even more daring and amazing for the time.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

John Cage described himself as an anarchist. Those of us TRUELY familair with contemporary music composed ion the lasft fifty years or more would know this simple fact.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Rapide said:


> John Cage described himself as an anarchist. Those of us TRUELY familair with contemporary music composed ion the lasft fifty years or more would know this simple fact.


Okay thanks for that. It kinda hurts (is that your point?). But sorry, I don't go for false dichotomies. I put my thoughts in detail above. I might know sweet f*** all about music, but it would be better to talk to the topic, not talk to my knowledge, or lack of it.

You put yourself on a pedestal and flush me down the toilet. Well if it makes you feel good, do it, nobody is stopping you, NOBODY.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

oogabooha said:


> oh wow, I didn't know that. I'm not a huge fan of Wagner, but I do know that he had some compositions from before then (although weren't most of them lost?)...which ones would you recommend?


No most of them werent lost, and nearly all of the works from before the uprising are considered masterpieces:

The flying dutchman
Tannhauser
Lohengrin

HE had also drafted the scenario for Der Ring which has quite an obvious anarchist message, although he later reevaluated the story in line with his new beliefs.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Harry Partch maybe?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Not interested in anarchists.
When your mind is fully developed by knowledge you will understand that without strong governments there will be thousands of tribes tearing each other apart.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Arsakes said:


> Not interested in anarchists.
> When your mind is fully developed by knowledge you will understand that without strong governments there will be thousands of tribes tearing each other apart.


So... for example, Tolstoy's mind is less fully developed than yours?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

A fully matured and developed mind can also negotiate between those two extremes without having to like government or yearn for a Lord of the Flies type society.

To my knowledge many people who identify as anarchist let their antiestablishmentarianism inform decisions and stances that have constructive, tangible results to society as we know it. In other words, they're not all abstinent from positive political change until the government magically goes away. The label strikes me as more of a principle thing, in its generic sense.

Funny how we have government, and sometimes it still seems like we're locked in tribal warfare.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

What all anarchists have in common is an attitude that "any kind of structure of authority has to justify itself - if it can't do that, it is inherently illegitimate, and should be dismantled". No call for cessation of _all_ institutions, ending _all_ governments, etc. It simply says that authority _always has to justify_ any claim to and usage of power. Even half matured brain has to agree with that.

But we like to throw words around. Calling Obama socialist is laughable in most of Europe...


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

Arsakes said:


> Not interested in anarchists.
> When your mind is fully developed by knowledge you will understand that without strong governments there will be thousands of tribes tearing each other apart.


No need to be condescending, this thread was just supposed to be about composers who were anarchists and how that affected their music. Frankly, I don't care about your opinions on anarchism or anything, so let's talk about the music.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

So... for example, Tolstoy's mind is less fully developed than yours?

Considering that Tolstoy also thought Shakespeare sucked it would seem his mind, however developed it may have been, certainly had some large gaps.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Considering that Tolstoy also thought Shakespeare sucked it would seem his mind, however developed it may have been, certainly had some large gaps.


I do not claim that Tolstoy's mind was perfect, but do believe it was considerably more 'developed' than that of member Arsakes. But more to the point, i just dont think he is correct in saying that only undeveloped minds can hold an anarchist viewpoint.

Anyway; carry on...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

To be fair to Shakespeare (and perhaps in a sense fair to Tolstoy), at the time Tolstoy wrote his criticisms of Shakespeare he had also rejected his own "great works" _War and Peace_ and _Anna Karenina_.


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## cunhaecouto (Mar 19, 2012)

And Pablo Picasso also was an anarchist. Tolstoy was too a composer but I don't know any music from him. I'm not sure about Nietsche politic ideology but he was a composer too whith a style influenced by Beethoven and with a personal style so different of all music that provoked big laughs in Wagner. I think Wagner was an socialist, he was influenced by Proudhon and Bakunin but these two anarchists were very famous and influenced many on society, more than Karl Marx but when the international came to the world communist starts to have same influence that anarchist, except in Portugal and Spain, Italia and Switzerland maybe.
John Henry Mackay, an anarchist writer and thinker wrote an book «The Anarchists» that Richard Strauss talk about it in her premier of opera Guntram, I don't know what Strauss think about the book but he was marked. Just a curiosity out of the topic: lyric from Mackay was used in songs composed by Richard Strauss and Max Reger (these are two examples that I know).
I don't know if were anarchist composers, we know that Wagner wasn't an anarchist and french composers like D'Indy, Saint-Saëns and Fauré also weren't because they participated in franco-prussian war. Musicians talk about her ideology? I think yes but no body wants to know just musicology and she talks about politic vision when she had a great influence on music or other, for example Dresden rally which Wagner participated did Wagner going to Switzerland and Picasso painted politics views that don't resume to «Guernica». Finally, César Franck said that he's republican but not so much, he worked a «ode» to workers by George Sand but we don't know what Franck was because politic apparently didn't influence her music.


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## cunhaecouto (Mar 19, 2012)

I must say that Strauss participated in the nazi party and all know Wagner essay about Judaism. So more things to conclude that they were really not anarchists.
I don't know political views from Alexander Scriabin (more possibily a «nihilist» «teosophist») and Frederick Delius (an atheist who admired Nietsche).


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

science said:


> To be fair to Shakespeare (and perhaps in a sense fair to Tolstoy), at the time Tolstoy wrote his criticisms of Shakespeare he had also rejected his own "great works" _War and Peace_ and _Anna Karenina_.


Plus during this time, Shakespeare was seen as next to God (literally, as he was seen to be replacing the Bible) and people were beginning to question his greatness as resistance against hero worship. George Bernard Shaw also did the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardolatry


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