# Ruhe Ruhe Contest From Immolation Scene



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

As requested I spent some time on this. 
Norman
Flagstad
Leider
Traubel
Varnay
Modl
Nilsson


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Holy crap! The things operaphiles do to pass the time!

OK, this could be fun...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't know who I like best, but I wonder how many of these I'd be able to identify in a blind test. 

Well, maybe Flagstad. There's just something in her tone...What performance is it from? It's live. La Scala 1950?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I found it very disconcerting to have the music interrupted when I wanted it to continue. On the elemental level, Flagstad’s noble timbre takes the cake, but I also liked Norman’s cavernous sounds down low and Nilsson surprised me with the vehemence of her utterance.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know who I like best, but I wonder how many of these I'd be able to identify in a blind test.
> 
> Well, maybe Flagstad. There's just something in her tone...What performance is it from? It's live. La Scala 1950?


But Woodduck, your favourite is there and surely you can spot her voice in a blind listening?🤣


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> As requested I spent some time on this.
> Norman
> Flagstad
> Leider
> ...


I voted for Modl because of her combination of authority and vulnerability though the unearthly richness of Flagstad was compelling. Traubel's low note on the word Gott has amazing depth and solidity.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I think it would be more fun if you did it like this-


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> But Woodduck, your favourite is there and surely you can spot her voice in a blind listening?🤣


That is the one.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know who I like best, but I wonder how many of these I'd be able to identify in a blind test.
> 
> Well, maybe Flagstad. There's just something in her tone...What performance is it from? It's live. La Scala 1950?


That is the one.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I like Gwyneth Jones in this role the best.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I like Gwyneth Jones in this role the best.


I find her disappointing in audio only videos but her complete Bayreuth Ring is by far the best Brunhilde on video!!! She is so exciting to watch that you forgive her her vocal imperfections. At least I do.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I find her disappointing in audio only videos but her complete Bayreuth Ring is by far the best Brunhilde on video!!! She is so exciting to watch that you forgive her her vocal imperfections. At least I do.


Brunnhilde is far from perfect so why would her voice be perfect? A bit ridiculous actually to articulate the drama of battle cries, vengeance trios, and distraught immolation scenes with precision-pitched vocal lines, if you really think about it. Flagstad's voice is nice but it always sounds like she's performing at a Met Benefit Concert and I can't place her with my mind's eye into an actual dramatic scene unfolding.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Brunnhilde is far from perfect so why would her voice be perfect? A bit ridiculous actually to articulate the drama of battle cries, vengeance trios, and distraught immolation scenes with precision-pitched vocal lines, if you really think about it. Flagstad's voice is nice but it always sounds like she's performing at a Met Benefit Concert and I can't place her with my mind's eye into an actual dramatic scene unfolding.


How far are you prepared to take the logic of this argument? If it's ridiculous for dramatic lines to be sung with clear, steady tone, might it not be ridiculous to sing them at all? Maybe composers should have the orchestra play the tunes while the dramatis personae speak, shout, scream and cry in order to present emotions more realistically.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This seems like a proper thread in which I can place this recent find - 












*Kirsten Flagstad Edition: The Decca Recitals*

Kirsten Flagstad (soprano), Set Svanholm (Siegmund), Edwin McArthur (piano)
Wiener Philharmoniker, Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra, Norwegian State Radio Orchestra, London Symphony Orchestra, London Philharmonic Orchestra, Hans Knappertsbusch, Sir Adrian Boult, Sir Georg Solti, Øivin Fjeldstad

Link to page which lists contents -









Kirsten Flagstad Edition: The Decca Recitals


Kirsten Flagstad Edition: The Decca Recitals. Decca: 4783930. Buy download online. Kirsten Flagstad (soprano), Set Svanholm (Siegmund), Edwin McArthur (piano) Wiener Philharmoniker, Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra, Norwegian State Radio Orchestra, London Symphony Orchestra, London Philharmonic...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete set of recordings - 10 hours and 21 minutes - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kJhSwwcujHe8KeUR34cSaTIhSeP_1mOIg


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> How far are you prepared to take the logic of this argument? If it's ridiculous for dramatic lines to be sung with clear, steady tone, might it not be ridiculous to sing them at all? Maybe composers should have the orchestra play the tunes while the dramatis personae speak, shout, scream and cry in order to present emotions more realistically.


I believe in the 19th century they did do something a little bit closer to that than what is sung today. They were less concerned with a beautiful singing tone, and put more emphasis on the dramatic rendering, it was referred to (unaffectionately I assume) as the "Bayreuth Bark". A clear Shakespearean declamation, no shying away from the harsh German consonants, and far less legato and vibrato than is sung today. In the big moments, perfect pitch and vocal support could be exchanged for dramatic emphasis and people wouldn't get all twisted up over it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I believe in the 19th century they did do something a little bit closer to that than what is sung today. They were less concerned with a beautiful singing tone, and put more emphasis on the dramatic rendering, it was referred to (unaffectionately I assume) as the "Bayreuth Bark". A clear Shakespearean declamation, no shying away from the harsh German consonants, and far less legato and vibrato than is sung today. In the big moments, perfect pitch and vocal support could be exchanged for dramatic emphasis and people wouldn't get all twisted up over it.


Well, I wasn't around to hear singers before the recording era, but I haven't heard anything on recordings made by mature singers in the first years of the 20th century to suggest that the singing of Wagner by major artists was then less concerned with tonal beauty and legato than it is today. On the contrary, we know that Wagner demanded singing in what was considered the "Italian style," which we presume meant a more legato, less declamatory style than what predominated in Germany at the time. Undoubtedly there was a learning curve among German singers, which Wagner must have found frustrating. But don't forget that he hired Lilli Lehmannn to be one of his underwater nixies, and later a flower maiden, at Bayreuth. He also admired the great Mattia Battistini (1856-1928) - as did Verdi and practically everyone else - whose recordings remain an object lesson in what was considered fine "Italian style" singing. One thing those recordings demonstrate is that expression is not at all opposed to beauty of line and tone. Of course we want dramatic insight and declamatory force in highly dramatic music, but I don't want it from singers who shout and wobble because they haven't the vocal health and technique to sing well, or the musical imagination to know how to project drama through a solid, clear and resonant tone.

It's been my understanding that the "Bayreuth bark" was a lapse, after Wagner's death, from the composer's own stated ideal; he would chide his singers, "There are no recitatives in my operas! It's all arias!" As heard on recordings, the greatest exponents of Wagner's music in the first few decades of the 20th century have, on the whole, rarely been equaled to this day in tonal steadiness and legato. I'd hope that we might again be so lucky as to have an Anton van Rooy, a Friedrich Schorr, a Jacques Urlus or a Joseph Schwarz unfurling Wagner's vocal lines with bel canto grace and ease!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> This seems like a proper thread in which I can place this recent find -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some of these are in the contests. I really love the Grieg stuff. There is a lot of stuff I have never heard of. This was mostly from her late 50's on.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm playing catch up and finally getting round to this.

Norman sounds too quiet to me and there isn't the wonderful bloom on the voice that Flagstad has in her excerpt. It's pure chest voice without any head voice in the mix.

Flagstad is as expected, but Leider is much better (her perfect diction sets her apart).

I like Traubel, but prefer Varnay (there's more soul than we get from the others).

Modl is possibly the most recognisable, (terrible sound on that excerpt, but c'est la vie and I know how difficult it is to find good clips for these contests), but she's not quite doing it for me in this moment.

Nilsson has a brighter tone than some of the others, but the diction isn't as clear as it could be.

I'm voting for Varnay's soul.

N.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Based purely on the video provided I'm going with Traubel and Varnay as runner up. It's a tough one. Modl sounds apocalyptic (in a good way). Flagstaff is glorious - what a voice. 
Well done Seattleoperafan. Thank you for putting that together.


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