# Brahms 4th symphony, first vs second movement



## Classical Playlists (Jan 26, 2020)

I have this little problem with Brahms fourth: first, third and fourth movement are exceptionally beautiful. To me especially the first movement, which seems to be most perfectly made. But what about the second movement?

If I compare the first and second movement, they have this similar melancholic ritmic pulse. But where this pulse in the first movement helps to make it uniquely fluent, it doesn't seem to work in the second movement. Don't you think it is very static? I agree there are nice passages, but the static beginning, those forte triplets keep disturbing me (the other forte passages as well), and the following Cello theme sounds more Bruckner then Brahms ...

Can someone explain why this second movement would deserve its place next to the other movements?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Here are a few thoughts, though not from me.

https://houstonsymphony.org/brahms-symphony-4/

I'll admit to hearing Brahms's stunning Fourth in a more coherent "wholeness" than you apparently do. But great music allows for multiple experiences on the parts of listeners, which is a good thing.

Here's more on the Symphony: https://www.theguardian.com/music/t...y/13/symphony-guide-brahms-fourth-tom-service


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The Brahms 4th second movement label, andante moderato, means at a moderate walking speed. This movement serves as compositional and emotional contrast to the speedier drama of the first movement. 

After the feverish allegro of movement 1, lasting 11-13 minutes in most recordings, the andante acts as a respite to both its heaving content -- a sort of calm after the opening storm-- and even begins a period of reflection after the opening melodrama that gives us time to think about what's coming next..especially in the late development when high drama reappears before abating.

The third movement allegro then proceeds back toward the beginning and the culminating final movement reinforces to the stress of the opening, closing the melancholy, blue, autumnal theatric we know as mature Brahms.

Without the second movement we would have three steamy movements with no counterweight. It is in all likelihood the magnificent second movement that gives us a break from opening drama and sets the contrast for the wonders of the finale. 

This is not to mention the second movement contains thematic material, especially in the early development, that is among the most beautiful of any Brahms composition. I think this section is one of Brahms' greatest glories and the andante movement my favorite of anything in any Brahms symphony.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I am no musicologist, but I'll say that the second movement is my favorite movement of the symphony-- and my favorite Brahms symphonic slow movement.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahms 4/II is a great movement - phrygian mode...beautiful long passages for clarinet/bassoon


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I love the 2nd movement. It was historically the 4th movement that I struggled with, many years back. I still think its slightly the weakest of the 4 movements but such is the quality of the other 3 movements that's no major criticism. Others feel very differently.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

ORigel said:


> I am no musicologist, but I'll say that the second movement is my favorite movement of the symphony-- and my favorite Brahms symphonic slow movement.


I have to agree there... I really like it too


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Merl said:


> I love the 2nd movement. It was historically the 4th movement that I struggled with, many years back. I still think its slightly the weakest of the 4 movements but such is the quality of the other 3 movements that's no major criticism. Others feel very differently.


I submit that the Fourth doesn't have any weak movements.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

For me, that second movement comprises a wonderful blend of lyricism, beauty and mystery. It's the fourth movement I've never been especially fond of.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I agree that it’s slightly disappointing compared to most Brahms slow movements, but I still love it. Especially in the second half, when the secondary theme reappears belted out on the full string choir. Conductors really need to lean into this and make the most of it. That’s such a wistful, passionate moment; emblematic of Brahms’s propensity to keep his outbursts in check, but when he does, it’s so rewarding.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

If Brahms writing this work contemplates his own mortality, then the second movement is where he bids farewell to the world and to everything, albeit a bit prematurely.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Oh I love all movements of the 4th. The second movement is gorgeous with the exposed wind parts and the modal pitch collection (phrygian I think).

A bad recording or interpretation can mess it up though, so maybe perhaps try a few different recordings?


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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

The OP's question is tough for me to answer, because I enjoy the second movement greatly. In fact the last few minutes may be my favourite part of the whole symphony. It's rather different from the other movements, but then it is the slow movement after all. I wonder whether the OP enjoys the slow movements of Brahms's other orchestral works?


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## Classical Playlists (Jan 26, 2020)

Caryatid said:


> The OP's question is tough for me to answer, because I enjoy the second movement greatly. In fact the last few minutes may be my favourite part of the whole symphony. It's rather different from the other movements, but then it is the slow movement after all. I wonder whether the OP enjoys the slow movements of Brahms's other orchestral works?


I do, especially the slow movements from the piano concerti, the violin concerto(!), third and first symphonies ... I think all of them are very good. To me the slow movement from the 4th sounds very different compared to others, which of course could be a good thing, but the movement hasn't captured me yet. There are parts I do like, and parts that bother me, especially those forte triplets. I think if those forte triplets wouldn't be there, changed by something more suitable (but yeah, who am I), I would be able to love the movement.

And am I the only one who can't help thinking about Bruckner when hearing the cello theme?? Seems nice since they were kind of rivals, back then people would love this cello theme and hate a Bruckner melody at the same time.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

This second movement is an integral part of the symphony - it dives deep into the tonic E major while carrying shades of the submediant/mediant C major and G major that were essential contrasting elements in the first movement (the first movement has a heavy deceptive cadence harmonic emphasis in E minor and B minor - hence the importance of C major and G major).

In the second movement, an abridged sonata form without development, already the opening octave unison theme outlines a C major triad, although we may hear it as a modal E phyrigian. And then right away, we enter the radiant E major with the clarinets playing the same theme. In this exposition first theme group, Brahms develops and explores variations on this theme. At rehearsal B, the violins play a lyrical theme in sixths, but of course it's a variation of the opening theme. Then the winds introduce the forte triplets, but of course that's also a variation of the opening theme and emphasizes its modal aspect - the theme emphasizes F# modal.

In the recapitulation, the first theme group develops much more intensely, with the strings entering contrapuntally playing thirty-second note figures and driving to a climax. At this climax at measure 84, we have fortissimo triplets, again emphasizing the B modal or E modal aspect and even ending on C major! C major being the harmony outlined at the beginning of this movement, and also playing an important role in the first movement.

So yes, the triplets appear twice, once forte by alternating winds and strings in the exposition, and once fortissimo in the whole orchestra in a climax in the recapitulation, and they carry the important modal/submediant emphasis. And they are variations of the initial theme.

Regarding the lyrical B major cello melody that gets recapitulated in E major by the violins, I think that the common sensibility of classical/romantic sonata form makes it appropriate to contrast the formal processional quality of the first theme group with something more lyrical and passionate and chorale-textured in the second theme group. Hearing it as an intrusion of a different composer's style is missing the point (there are parts of certain Brahms works that remind me of certain Mahler, Mozart, Schubert, or Beethoven works, but that's completely irrelevant for the problems of the given Brahms work at hand).

After all, in the first movement's second theme group in B major then recapitulated in E major, we have a lyrical theme in the violins and then winds, but perhaps fleeting as it disappears into a quiet haunting diminished 7th chord. Why not fully enjoy the lyricism with the warmth of a full chorale here in the second movement? It's the last chance we are going to get, because the tonic E major only comes back in the depths of the finale, where the mood is processional and somber, not personal and lyrical.


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