# A Parsifal Vorspiel test



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

In my on-going attempt to convince my mate to give Wagner's music the time of day (it ain't easy folks!) I played a little of the Prelude one day and in the next room I heard a voice say, "What is THAT!!!" When I said, Parsifal I had finally made a believer.

So today I decided to give a little test by playing only the first 2-3 minutes just to see which of the 4 conductors (1. von Karajan, 2. Solti, 3. Furtwangler, 4. Levine) would be my mate's choice.
Interesting that we both chose #1.
The Furtwangler and Levine were both quite beautiful but way too slow.

Does anyone have a favorite conductor for this masterpiece?


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

I just listened to the Krauss (1953) and I really enjoyed it, also the '62 Knappertsbusch was phenomenal. I have the Kubelik in line to listen to as well...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

On CD the Solti recording, closely follow by Karajan DG recording :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

My favorite may be Karl Muck's magisterial recording from the 1920s, which shows how a real master can make even a very slow tempo hold together. Muck's statements of the opening theme are spellbinding, making every note live and achieving Wagner's intended effect of time in suspension, completely released from meter. Interesting is the flexibility of tempo, especially evident in the progression of the "faith" motive. Muck was considered the "owner" of this opera at Bayreuth in the pre-Knappertsbusch era, and can be heard in a number of excerpts from it on a Naxos CD.

http://www.wagneropera.net/CD/Parsifal/CD-Parsifal-Muck-1927.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Comple...&qid=1463634562&sr=1-1&keywords=parsifal+muck

Here's the prelude on YouTube, with the concert ending:






When I hear such a performance I doubt that anyone has ever composed more profoundly expressive music. Even Nietzsche was forced to interrupt his anti-Wagner tirades long enough to say that the music cut through his soul like a knife.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

^ I have that Naxos CD and it's a good one, though I have trouble sitting through the whole opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> ^ I have that Naxos CD and it's a good one, though I have trouble sitting through the whole opera.


It doesn't get easier as one gets older. Wagner had no mercy on backs and behinds.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Act at a time, act at a time.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> My favorite may be Karl Muck's magisterial recording from the 1920s, which shows how a real master can make even a very slow tempo hold together. Muck's statements of the opening theme are spellbinding, making every note live and achieving Wagner's intended effect of time in suspension, completely released from meter. Interesting is the flexibility of tempo, especially evident in the progression of the "faith" motive. Muck was considered the "owner" of this opera at Bayreuth in the pre-Knappertsbusch era, and can be heard in a number of excerpts from it on a Naxos CD.
> 
> http://www.wagneropera.net/CD/Parsifal/CD-Parsifal-Muck-1927.htm
> 
> ...


Nice comparison list there on wagneropera.net showing Muck to be one of the slowest Parsifal preludes on record, much slower than even Knaps longest 51 Parsifal recording........

I would have a hard time on purely orchestral terms (with no voices) to pick best Parsifal prelude but if only one could be had I would go with one of the newer stereo ones like Solti/VPO or Karajan/BPO, incredible inner detail those shimmering string sections that produce the "time suspension" Duck refers to, and the central brass sections sound so elegantly sublime with the golden toned Vienna brass section (can hear some tonal references to later grail ceremony) Solti so often labeled as bombastic with lack of spiritual dimension in wagner, but he is very impressive in many of the wagner preludes for me

For those interested in the 1927-28 Muck studio wagner recordings Pristine XR has the Mark Obert-Thorne remasters (from 78 rpm originals) that Andrew Rose had done additional work to.......












> On CD the Solti recording, closely follow by Karajan DG recording


I just saw your post above, we are in agreement.....


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's interesting to read of Wagner himself conducting the prelude on two occasions with the timing differing considerably: 13:00 and 14:30. So much for the idea that there is such a thing as a "correct" tempo.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> It's interesting to read of Wagner himself conducting the prelude on two occasions with the timing differing considerably: 13:00 and 14:30. So much for the idea that there is such a thing as a "correct" tempo.


That does seem to be a pretty wide margin of stylistic performance tempo variation...... but look at the extremes of that list at wagneropera.net incredible variation from 10:12 -> 16:38, and it's not like one extreme performance skewing the list, a pretty steady progression from fastest to slowest

One cool thing about these recordings from 1920-30s in Wagner, Mahler, R Strauss etc is that these conductors/singers were able to personally hear the composer conduct his own works or were trained by conductors who worked directly with original composer, so we can assume they have some knowledge of the composers original intent


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I find nothing more fascinating than music-making in the early years of recording. Performance style has undergone distinct changes in the last century, one of the most conspicuous of which has been the sense of time - i.e., tempo. Wagner advocated flexibility of tempo in accord with the emotional sense of the music, and Mahler is known to have followed this practice. It appears that in the Romantic era musical time was experienced as subjective and organic, not as metric, and in their approach to Wagner's music Furtwangler and Knappertsbusch were the successors of Muck in this respect. We rarely, if ever, hear this sort of conducting today. Probably most of us wouldn't even accept it now, since metrical rigidity is more or less a necessity if clinical perfection of ensemble is to be maintained. I think any of those grand old Teutons, Wagner included, would have had a few choice expletives to utter on that subject.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There are many fine recordings of this beautiful music. Karajan's DG set is justly famous but he also was recorded live in Vienna which has the advantage of a little extra edge. Unfortunately the recording disadvantages the orchestra. Karajan also recorded the Prélude's for EMI which are now a fill up to the Bruckner 8. Baremboim has also made a beautifully played recording of the opera. Of course, Knappersbusch is famous but I don't find the magic in his 1951 recording as some do.
Mind you, your friend can hardly be called the believer until he sat through the whole opera. And that takes some doing!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Mind you, your friend can hardly be called the believer until he sat through the whole opera. And that takes some doing!


No question about THAT one!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> There are many fine recordings of this beautiful music. Karajan's DG set is justly famous but he also was recorded live in Vienna which has the advantage of a little extra edge. Unfortunately the recording disadvantages the orchestra. Karajan also recorded the Prélude's for EMI which are now a fill up to the Bruckner 8. Baremboim has also made a beautifully played recording of the opera. Of course, Knappersbusch is famous but I don't find the magic in his 1951 recording as some do.
> Mind you, your friend can hardly be called the believer until he sat through the whole opera. And that takes some doing!


It may be advantageous to discover Wagner in youth, when fascination with things can keep us totally absorbed for hours without the body protesting (as witness kids at their computers). I first heard the whole of _Parsifal_ at around age 14; it was the 1951 Bayreuth recording - with it's famously slow tempos - played on radio. I was completely entranced and remained so for some time after it was over, and if I'd had the recording handy I might well have started the whole thing over from the beginning. When I received the 1962 Bayreuth recording for Christmas soon thereafter I couldn't get enough of it. I rarely sit still for a whole (long) opera now, but then I've internalized this particular opera to the extent that I hardly need to listen to it. It would be nice to see one more great recording, but aside from Jonas Kauffmann I can't think who could match some of the classic old performances from Bayreuth.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> It may be advantageous to discover Wagner in youth, when fascination with things can keep us totally absorbed for hours without the body protesting (as witness kids at their computers). I first heard the whole of _Parsifal_ at around age 14; it was the 1951 Bayreuth recording - with it's famously slow tempos - played on radio. I was completely entranced and remained so for some time after it was over, and if I'd had the recording handy I might well have started the whole thing over from the beginning. When I received the 1962 Bayreuth recording for Christmas soon thereafter I couldn't get enough of it. I rarely sit still for a whole (long) opera now, but then I've internalized this particular opera to the extent that I hardly need to listen to it. It would be nice to see one more great recording, but aside from Jonas Kauffmann I can't think who could match some of the classic old performances from Bayreuth.


Funnily enough, a recording of this opera I listen to a lot now is the radio recording from the Met production in 2013 with Kaufmann, Pape, Mattei, Dalayman, Nikitin and conducted by Gatti. I think if you put most of that cast in the studio, you'd have a great Parsifal. I think Pape is the finest Gurnemanz since Moll. Maybe the only change is I would put Anja Kampe in as Kundry. Also I am not sure that there is anyone around who is a really good Klingsor, although it's a tough role to get right.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Kubelik's and Kna's 62 version of prelude are very good. For a modern version I also like Thielemann's Vienna recording of the prelude, even if the whole recording itself is not satisfactory.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> Nice comparison list there on wagneropera.net showing Muck to be one of the slowest Parsifal preludes on record, much slower than even Knaps longest 51 Parsifal recording........
> 
> I would have a hard time on purely orchestral terms (with no voices) to pick best Parsifal prelude but if only one could be had I would go with one of the newer stereo ones like Solti/VPO or Karajan/BPO, incredible inner detail those shimmering string sections that produce the "time suspension" Duck refers to, and the central brass sections sound so elegantly sublime with the golden toned Vienna brass section (can hear some tonal references to later grail ceremony) Solti so often labeled as bombastic with lack of spiritual dimension in wagner, but he is very impressive in many of the wagner preludes for me
> 
> For those interested in the 1927-28 Muck studio wagner recordings Pristine XR has the Mark Obert-Thorne remasters (from 78 rpm originals) that Andrew Rose had done additional work to.......


I have got to say, the Muck I have been able to listen to has been revelatory. Thus far only the prelude and the third act of _Parsifal_ (the latter from a Preiser release of the same material as on the second disc of the above). I am really tempted to order everything else discussed.

This is definitely my preferred approach to Wagner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jflatter said:


> Funnily enough, a recording of this opera I listen to a lot now is the radio recording from the Met production in 2013 with Kaufmann, Pape, Mattei, Dalayman, Nikitin and conducted by Gatti. I think if you put most of that cast in the studio, you'd have a great Parsifal. I think Pape is the finest Gurnemanz since Moll. Maybe the only change is I would put Anja Kampe in as Kundry. Also I am not sure that there is anyone around who is a really good Klingsor, although it's a tough role to get right.


I heard the radio broadcast of that (except, alas, for a big chunk of Mattei's act one grail temple monologue, when the transmission cut out), and I was very moved by it. I was lukewarm about Dalayman, and had mixed feelings about Gatti: deeply lyrical, revelatory at times, a little lacking in momentum at others. I should give it another listen. I agree about Klingsor: Neidlinger was great, Uhde was best of all, and nobody I've heard since quite measures up.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I agree about Klingsor: Neidlinger was great, Uhde was best of all, and nobody I've heard since quite measures up.


Franz Mazura wasn't far behind. He's excellent on the classic Kubelik recording, also for Levine at Bayreuth. A personal favourite, also, is Nicholas Folwell for Goodall; like his Alberich (unrecorded?) his Klingsor is a beautifully-sung, very _musical_ characterisation of the rôle.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It may be advantageous to discover Wagner in youth, when fascination with things can keep us totally absorbed for hours without the body protesting (as witness kids at their computers). I first heard the whole of _Parsifal_ at around age 14; it was the 1951 Bayreuth recording - with it's famously slow tempos - played on radio. I was completely entranced and remained so for some time after it was over, and if I'd had the recording handy I might well have started the whole thing over from the beginning. When I received the 1962 Bayreuth recording for Christmas soon thereafter I couldn't get enough of it. I rarely sit still for a whole (long) opera now, but then I've internalized this particular opera to the extent that I hardly need to listen to it. It would be nice to see one more great recording, but aside from Jonas Kauffmann I can't think who could match some of the classic old performances from Bayreuth.


Yeah, I discovered Wagner as a 13 year old borrowing the Solti Ring Cycle LPs from interlibrary loan, taping the whole thing on cassette tapes with the recorder sitting next to the speakers, and listening to it endlessly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gardibolt said:


> Yeah, I discovered Wagner as a 13 year old borrowing the Solti Ring Cycle LPs from interlibrary loan, taping the whole thing on cassette tapes with the recorder sitting next to the speakers, and listening to it endlessly.


Haha. Nice to hear about another juvenile Wagnerite. When I was 13 I thought I was the only one in the world. I was certainly the only one in Northfield, New Jersey.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> Yeah, I discovered Wagner as a 13 year old borrowing the Solti Ring Cycle LPs from interlibrary loan, taping the whole thing on cassette tapes with the recorder sitting next to the speakers, and listening to it endlessly.


I must say, I am jealous of the above accounts... For some ungodly reason I hadn't made Wagner a part of my life until age 32 (8 months ago)... but I am trying to make up for lost time!


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