# Which Brahms symphony cycle to choose



## pentaquine

I have 2 cycles, Abbado/BPO and Haitink/RCO, and I'm trying to buy another one because I love the pieces so much. I have come down to Chailly and Dohnanyi/Cleveland. I've heard the former and I know I love it; the later has terrific reviews but I can't find sample so I don't know if I will like it, although I do love the conductor and orchestra so I probably will have a pleasant surprise with that route. 

Which one should I choose? Have you heard both? How do they compare?


----------



## Albert7

Here you go... Chailly recent cycle is worth it.









Elegant, restrained, and fairly close to the Brahms scores.


----------



## phlrdfd

pentaquine said:


> I have 2 cycles, Abbado/BPO and Haitink/RCO, and I'm trying to buy another one because I love the pieces so much. I have come down to Chailly and Dohnanyi/Cleveland. I've heard the former and I know I love it; the later has terrific reviews but I can't find sample so I don't know if I will like it, although I do love the conductor and orchestra so I probably will have a pleasant surprise with that route.
> 
> Which one should I choose? Have you heard both? How do they compare?


What led you to narrow the very wide field down to Chailly and Dohnanyi? There are some legendary Brahms recordings out there. Do you tend to shy away from recordings from the 50s and 60s because of the sound quality?


----------



## pentaquine

Sound quality is important to me, but that's not the main point here. I just wanted to add a newer recording to my collection, and I've chosen Chailly over Rattle and Thielemann. However in that process I found great reviews about this Dohnanyi cycle so that's why I haven't decided yet. I'm open to other choices but that just make things even more difficult.


----------



## phlrdfd

Thanks for your response. While most of my favorite Brahms recordings are mono, if you're willing to consider other stereo cycles, here is one that is very good and also very inexpensive at Amazon. As a bonus, the set includes the D-Minor concerto and German Requiem. It was recorded with the Chicago Symphony during the Solti era, probably in the mid to late 70s when Levine was recording with the CSO and Philadelphia Orchestra for RCA.


----------



## Albert7

phlrdfd said:


> What led you to narrow the very wide field down to Chailly and Dohnanyi? There are some legendary Brahms recordings out there. Do you tend to shy away from recordings from the 50s and 60s because of the sound quality?


I second Chaily's recording again... yes there are legendary recordings from the 50s and 60s but the OP has requested that we select between the two cycles he or she is suggesting here.


----------



## KenOC

I will also put in a good word for Chailly's cycle.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Personally, of the newer recordings of Brahms' symphonies, I like Gardiner's HIP approach:










Beyond that, I too prefer older recordings.


----------



## GraemeG

Boult, Celibidache, Furtwangler.
And Carlos Kleiber for 4 (and 2 on video) are compulsory.
Graeme


----------



## brotagonist

I know you want to have newer recordings, and I do understand that, but this one is often available at too-good-to-refuse prices:









I am not an expert and have little to go by, in the way of comparisons, but this is a very satisfying set. Considering that the two you already have are 'newer' ones, this 'older' one wouldn't be out of place. While I don't usually like to go much before 1960, due to primitive recording technology, this set is still well within the range of serious consideration, as far as sound quality goes. The Haydn Variations date from 1955, the Alto Rhapsody from 1962, and the rest of the album, including the 4 Symphonies, from 1958.

From Archiv Music:

Otto Klemperer's Brahms needs no introduction. It remains a classic reference edition, one of the very few complete cycles with absolutely no weak links. It's customary to call these performances "granitic", an adjective that certainly applies to the First Symphony but doesn't begin to describe the swift and thrilling finale of the Fourth, the grand but impulsive Third (with its first-movement repeat in place), or the warmly lyrical Second. In general Klemperer's unsentimental but always gripping approach to this music practically defines the word "idiomatic". The Alto Rhapsody with Christa Ludwig also is one of the great ones, while the shorter works share the same virtues as the symphonies. The sound shows its age a bit, but it has been well remastered in this latest transfer (which differs only marginally from previous issues). A Great Recording of the Century indeed! [4/28/2004]


----------



## pentaquine

Thank you for all your suggestions. I'm quite familiar with Klemperer's Brahms, it's probably one of the most famous performance recorded. 

For the 2 cycles I originately intended to get, it seems like Chailly gets all the vote and Dohnanyi gets no love.


----------



## Albert7

pentaquine said:


> Thank you for all your suggestions. I'm quite familiar with Klemperer's Brahms, it's probably one of the most famous performance recorded.
> 
> For the 2 cycles I originately intended to get, it seems like Chailly gets all the vote and Dohnanyi gets no love.


You are welcome.  Of course, whenever you get a chance after you hear Chailly's version of his Brahms symphonies, you ought to check out his disc of Brahms serenades too. They are just so wonderful!


----------



## Triplets

I second the Klemperer. My other favorite cycle is Kurt Sanderling andthe Dresden Staatkapelle. I recently purchased the Manze/Helsingborg SACD set which is swift and somewhat HIPP. Also in SACD, the Janowski/PSO set on Pentatone is very good. For historical sets I go to Furtwangler on Music and Arts. Avoid the Masur/Leipzig SACD cycle.


----------



## Albert7

I just talked to my roommate Ben and he said that his favorite version was the Toscanini with NBC Symphony Orchestra recordings in case historical recordings interest you.


----------



## realdealblues

I know you made your decision already but I will speak up for Dohnanyi as being one of the best cycles around.

I have over 40 Brahms cycles because of my absolute love for Brahms' Symphonies.

If I had to narrow it down to 2 recordings, Levine (Chicago) and Klemperer would be my recommendations of the two cycles that must be owned. Both are "Astounding" and of the highest caliber and in my opinion give you the 2 best visions of Brahms. They are 11's on a scale of 10.

Just below those Top 2 would be the amazing recordings from Wand, Dohnanyi, Abbado, Jochum (London), Levine (Vienna), and Sanderling (Dresden). They are all perfect 10's and are the absolute top shelf and are in a league of their own.

Furtwangler and Toscanini are of course both interesting to hear, but if you wanted a Mono recording I would take Jochum's Berlin recordings on DG over both.

I will again be the lone person who feels Chailly missed the mark with his cycle. It's good, don't get me wrong and I've heard far worse, but compared to any of the above it's an 8 out of 10. Listen to the first movement of the 2nd Symphony or the slow movement of the 4th and compare it to ANY of those listed above. Albert said "Elegant & Restrained" and I would add "Lacking Character, Impersonal and Anti-Climatic at times". Symphony 3 is probably the high point of the set.

It sounds like I'm being very hard on Chailly and I don't mean it to sound that way. It's a very crowded field with lots of choices and Chailly's new cycle is a "Good" cycle, but for me and others I know it missed the mark on being a truly "Great" one, like any of the others I mentioned.


----------



## Templeton

I have cycles by Szell, Celibidache and Karajan, that I have listened to and Wand, that I have, so far, not, so based upon realdealblues's comments above, I have something to look forward to.

I enjoyed all of the above cycles and couldn't find anything negative about any of them, although be aware that Celibidache is a bit like 'Marmite' (not sure of the non-UK equivalent) for many posters; one either loves or hates it/him, with very few undecided or indifferent. I really like him and he is certainly different.

So far, with pretty well all works, not just Brahms, I have found Szell's recordings with the Cleveland Orchestra to be exemplary, so perhaps another one to consider.


----------



## Triplets

realdealblues said:


> I know you made your decision already but I will speak up for Dohnanyi as being one of the best cycles around.
> 
> I have over 40 Brahms cycles because of my absolute love for Brahms' Symphonies.
> 
> If I had to narrow it down to 2 recordings, Levine (Chicago) and Klemperer would be my recommendations of the two cycles that must be owned. Both are "Astounding" and of the highest caliber and in my opinion give you the 2 best visions of Brahms. They are 11's on a scale of 10.
> 
> Just below those Top 2 would be the amazing recordings from Wand, Dohnanyi, Abbado, Jochum (London), Levine (Vienna), and Sanderling (Dresden). They are all perfect 10's and are the absolute top shelf and are in a league of their own.
> 
> Furtwangler and Toscanini are of course both interesting to hear, but if you wanted a Mono recording I would take Jochum's Berlin recordings on DG over both.
> 
> I will again be the lone person who feels Chailly missed the mark with his cycle. It's good, don't get me wrong and I've heard far worse, but compared to any of the above it's an 8 out of 10. Listen to the first movement of the 2nd Symphony or the slow movement of the 4th and compare it to ANY of those listed above. Albert said "Elegant & Restrained" and I would add "Lacking Character, Impersonal and Anti-Climatic at times". Symphony 3 is probably the high point of the set.
> 
> It sounds like I'm being very hard on Chailly and I don't mean it to sound that way. It's a very crowded field with lots of choices and Chailly's new cycle is a "Good" cycle, but for me and others I know it missed the mark on being a truly "Great" one, like any of the others I mentioned.


I heard the Chailly 4th on internet Radio and it left me a little wanting. The critical response has been all over the map for his cycle--from ecstatic to dismissive


----------



## pentaquine

Hey guys, I just found out I can get the entire Chailly cycle on ONE bluray disc! And the price is much lower! Unfortunately it seems like many people have problem with this disc.

Also I wish they package the bluray disc in a regular CD size case, so I can fit it nicely on my CD rack. There's no point to put it in a movie package.

http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphonies-Blu-ray-Audio-Beethoven/dp/B00M3IVE1Q/


----------



## Vinski

I bought Chailly cycle in Studio Quality FLAC 96/24. It sound amazing with The Squeezebox Touch system.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4785344#download


----------



## Steve Wright

I am a relative novice and have just one cycle (Karajan 1980s - cheap on Amazon). Have to say I love it - especially 2, the only one I have really got to know well.
Am I a fool? Where should I go next? I'd say I'm more at the lyrical than the bombastic end of the spectrum, and that sound quality is fairly important. Thanks!


----------



## realdealblues

Steve Wright said:


> I am a relative novice and have just one cycle (Karajan 1980s - cheap on Amazon). Have to say I love it - especially 2, the only one I have really got to know well.
> Am I a fool? Where should I go next? I'd say I'm more at the lyrical than the bombastic end of the spectrum, and that sound quality is fairly important. Thanks!


Karajan is Karajan. I love Karajan for who he was, but although he's known for his German Romantic recordings, I think he was better at other things. If you're looking for another cycle to try I say get the James Levine w/Chicago one. It's very inexpensive now, like $12 on Amazon. Sound quality is very good. I hear so many details that I don't hear on many other recordings and the actual sound of the Chicago Symphony lends itself perfectly to being able to hear all those little details in Brahms' thickly textured orchestration.


----------



## omega

A great set!

(Oops, I have just noticed you have already this one... )


----------



## almc

I know it's awful to ask a certain question and then have everybody else coming to stretch out your options...

I have Chaily in my collection and I do believe it is a fine circle ... you cannot go wrong by choosing it ... However, when looking for complete circles, one can miss alot ... Eg. the excellent 1 & 2 by Ivan Fischer (also great audiophile pressing) and Jurowski's 3 & 4 ...

Anyway, when in the future you find some time, keep an eye for the best third ever, the one by Barbirolli ....


----------



## Triplets

realdealblues said:


> Karajan is Karajan. I love Karajan for who he was, but although he's known for his German Romantic recordings, I think he was better at other things. If you're looking for another cycle to try I say get the James Levine w/Chicago one. It's very inexpensive now, like $12 on Amazon. Sound quality is very good. I hear so many details that I don't hear on many other recordings and the actual sound of the Chicago Symphony lends itself perfectly to being able to hear all those little details in Brahms' thickly textured orchestration.


 I just returned from hearing Edo de Waart lead the Third with the Chicago SO in a very nice performance, and the Levine set was going for $11 in the gift shop. I meant to pick it up but with my wife frowning at me--she knows that about a dozen Brahms cycles currently reside on my shelf-I chickened out. I think I have the 4th from that cycle on lp somewhere and remember thinking it was very strong, both playing and recording quality.


----------



## Vaneyes

Triplets said:


> I just returned from hearing *Edo de Waart* lead the Third with the Chicago SO in a very nice performance, and the Levine set was going for $11 in the gift shop. I meant to pick it up but with my wife frowning at me--she knows that about a dozen Brahms cycles currently reside on my shelf-I chickened out. I think I have the 4th from that cycle on lp somewhere and remember thinking it was very strong, both playing and recording quality.


What is it about Edo? 

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2012/09/21/murphy’s-law-the-six-wives-of-edo-de-waart/


----------



## billeames

Levine CSO, Kempe (Munich), Beinum Concertgebouw great (some Beinum is mono), Kertesz, Klemperer Warner formerly EMI, Bouit EMI. There are many very good ones. Solti, Kertesz, Chailly, Wand, Raiskin. I will not mention mono ones. I cant get too excited about Dohnanyi, Szell, maybe personal preference.. There is the Abbado first cycle (tower.jp) which is odd, as the first great others not as much. His BPO one not my preference. Thanks, Bill


----------



## techniquest

I was out and about a couple of days ago and found this old HMV Boult set in a charity shop. As it was priced at next-to-nothing I bought it; but what's the opinion of people here who are far more familiar with Brahms than I am?


----------



## HIDEKI SUKENOBU

Kurt Sanderling and the Dresden Staatkapelle is recommendable. When this was released, many friends of mine bought and listened to it, I remember. Especially their sound was warm and woodwinds were beautiful. But I only listened to the 1st one. When I want to listen to Brahms is limited to the weather & climate. In autumn and winter, I often want to listen to his music which reminds me of his grimace. Have you ever listened to the 4th played by Eduart van Beinum & ACO and the 3rd played by Sir John Barbirolli & VPO. The consistency of tempo of the former(rather a little fast) and the melancholic mood of the latter might attract you.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> I was out and about a couple of days ago and found this old HMV Boult set in a charity shop. As it was priced at next-to-nothing I bought it; but what's the opinion of people here who are far more familiar with Brahms than I am?
> 
> View attachment 67681


I don't have an opinion about the box set, but MusicWeb has a couple of reviews:


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/brahmsboult.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Sept02/Brahms_Boult_EMI.htm


----------



## Triplets

Vaneyes said:


> What is it about Edo?
> 
> http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2012/09/21/murphy’s-law-the-six-wives-of-edo-de-waart/


Wow, I had no idea about his Marital History. I like the bumper sticker line. At least he doesn't have 9 illegitimate kids like Furtwangler did.


----------



## Triplets

HIDEKI SUKENOBU said:


> Kurt Sanderling and the Dresden Staatkapelle is recommendable. When this was released, many friends of mine bought and listened to it, I remember. Especially their sound was warm and woodwinds were beautiful. But I only listened to the 1st one. When I want to listen to Brahms is limited to the weather & climate. In autumn and winter, I often want to listen to his music which reminds me of his grimace. Have you ever listened to the 4th played by Eduart van Beinum & ACO and the 3rd played by Sir John Barbirolli & VPO. The consistency of tempo of the former(rather a little fast) and the melancholic mood of the latter might attract you.


The Sanderling is my go to set.


----------



## HIDEKI SUKENOBU

George Szell is one of my favorite dependable conductor who had a broad repertoire from Haydn's symphonies to small pieces by Prokofiev or Bartok. However I don't know why he did not succeed in playing Brahms. CBS recordings were not satisfactory and even the live recordings at Cleveland sold on some anniversary were tremendously disastrous. There're only four symphonies written by this Hamburg-born person. So you might choose any alternative for any one of them. I choose Haitink & ACO for the 1st, and Karajan & BPO(his older recording)for the 2nd, and Sir John Barbilolli & VPO for the 3rd, and Eduard van Beinum & ACO for the 4th.


----------



## Kelt

I like Kleiber, Wand and Solti, myself. I also have Harnoncourt's, based on several glowing reviews, but I did not care for it too much - it's on the experimental side. He shortens a lot of phrases, especially. Now that I think about it, I bet Klemperer's Brahms are great, he is just the conductor I want to hear in that music.


----------



## DavidGee

What do you think of Dorati with the LSO for 3 of the symphonies and the Minneapolis SO for the other one? They are in the third Mercury Living Presence Collector's Edition box set which I have just ordered.


----------



## BermondseySE1

Nice to see some references above to Jochum and the LPO on EMI - my first Brahms cycle and one I still return to: passionate and beautifully-played.


----------



## csacks

Any idea about a cycle by Gianandrea Noseda and La Orquesta de Cadaqués?. I have just heard Noseda´s conduction for Britten´s War Requiem and the cycle is announced by Spotify.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

pentaquine said:


> Thank you for all your suggestions. I'm quite familiar with Klemperer's Brahms, it's probably one of the most famous performance recorded.
> 
> For the 2 cycles I originately intended to get, it seems like Chailly gets all the vote and Dohnanyi gets no love.


Here are two possible ways to find the cycle that pleases you: 1) Check You Tube to see if one or both are on the site for listening. 2) Purchase the sets you are curious about. If you don't like one of the sets, sell it and keep the one you like. It's all subjective. What others enjoy or rave about, you may not. You alone decide based on YOUR listening experience.


----------



## hpowders

I would go with Charles Munch/Boston Symphony for symphonies 1,2 and 4. Some of the best performances ever. They never recorded Brahms 3.

I would supplement these with the Brahms 3rd by James Levine directing the Chicago Symphony.


----------



## Bettina

Has anyone mentioned Zubin Mehta's cycle? It's my favorite recording of Brahms symphonies (and it also includes the Tragic Overture and the Variations on a Theme by Haydn).


----------



## Pugg

Bernstein with the V.P. and Karajan with the B.P.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Kelt said:


> I like Kleiber, Wand and Solti, myself. I also have Harnoncourt's, based on several glowing reviews, but I did not care for it too much - it's on the experimental side. He shortens a lot of phrases, especially. Now that I think about it, I bet Klemperer's Brahms are great, he is just the conductor I want to hear in that music.


I have Klemperer in nos.3 and 4 and like them very much. Some of the tempi are a touch slower than one might hear elsewhere but they seem to me to suit the music well. No.3 is my favourite Brahms symphony and I don't recall hearing it done better at any time.


----------



## 13hm13

Probably, Mravinsky... but the recording qualities aren't great 

Here's a 1973 USSR video of the 4th:





Doremi released a "Vol. 1" set a while back:










http://www.doremi.com/mravinsky.html

...which contains all 4 symphs. But they were all recorded years or decades apart.


----------



## Merl

I must admit that I play my Brahms cycles in fairly heavy rotation (as I have so many) but I always come back to the ones I love the most - Levine, Szell, Dohnanyi, Klemperer, Sanderling, Solti, Manze and Nelsons. I like nearly all the other ones but these are my favourites. There's few I don't like at all but Mackerras' set is flat and dull, IMO and Eschenbach's is a little uninteresting too. I've been listening to Axelrod's 'Brahms Beloved' cycle this week. It got mixed reviews on release but it's nowhere near as bad as I expected. My current go-to is definitely Levine though. The playing of the CSO is just stellar. The 3rd Symphony is a major highlight.


----------



## Heck148

Merl said:


> My current go-to is definitely Levine though. The playing of the CSO is just stellar. The 3rd Symphony is a major highlight.


yes, very fine Brahms #3...


----------



## 13hm13

Merl said:


> I must admit that I play my Brahms cycles in fairly heavy rotation (as I have so many) but I always come back to the ones I love the most - Levine, Szell, Dohnanyi, Klemperer, Sanderling, Solti, Manze and Nelsons. I like nearly all the other ones but these are my favourites. There's few I don't like at all but Mackerras' set is flat and dull, IMO and Eschenbach's is a little uninteresting too. I've been listening to Axelrod's 'Brahms Beloved' cycle this week. It got mixed reviews on release but it's nowhere near as bad as I expected. My current go-to is definitely Levine though. The playing of the CSO is just stellar. The 3rd Symphony is a major highlight.


I like what Levine does with many composers, so I'll have to listen to some of his samples soon.
I'm far from having heard most cycles. And I usually ignore Symphs 2 and 3.
As far as Symphs 1 and 4 ... 
Symph 1 (Mehta, Vienna PO, 1976)
Symph 4 (Gardiner, 2008)
...are on my hard-drive playlist. 
HVK and Furtwangler are also on the playlist (not sure which year) as is Zinman/Tonhalle (decent performance but terrible recording)


----------



## Der Titan

I think Abbado is very fine. I like also Furtwängler ( I have Life recordings from the "Furtwängler society" not the studio recordings). Another cycle is Schmidt Isserstedt with the NDR symphonics. This is more "cold" Brahms, on the other hand certainly "idiomatic", a cycle from Hamburg, and Brahms came from Hamburg. Schmidt Isserstedt is somebody with whom I somehow grew up, because when I was young, he and his orchestra was always in the radio. I also liked the van Zweden - very good. Then I have Thomas Sanderling with the Philharmonia Orchestra, nothing sensational, but very pleasant and civilised. What do I listen to mostly? In the moment Abbado.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Utah Symphony is respectable in this Amazon download for $2.99








I also have this one on CD and highly recommend it.


----------



## JBB

Bruno Walter and the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, an early 1960s set.


----------



## DarkAngel

1950s Walter NYPO in very good mono sound, sounds absolutely nothing like the later 1960s Columbia set, very bold dramatic exciting performances, don't pass these over essential!

Throw in the mandatory extra Kleiber 4th...........


----------



## Templeton

I have heard a lot more cycles since I first posted back in 2015 and my go to cycles are now Levine with either the Chicago Symphony or Vienna Philharmonic, with the latter being my favourite, although there is virtually nothing to choose between the two. I know that Levine has sometimes been accused of being a conductor, whose interpretations occasionally lack depth but I would be very surprised if anybody could level this accusation at either of his Brahms cycles. These are simply gorgeous, top level recordings that deserve to grace any music lover's collection.


----------



## Merl

Templeton said:


> I have heard a lot more cycles since I first posted back in 2015 and my go to cycles are now Levine with either the Chicago Symphony or Vienna Philharmonic, with the latter being my favourite, although there is virtually nothing to choose between the two. I know that Levine has sometimes been accused of being a conductor, whose interpretations occasionally lack depth but I would be very surprised if anybody could level this accusation at either of his Brahms cycles. These are simply gorgeous, top level recordings that deserve to grace any music lover's collection.


Totally agree. Sanderling's Dresden set is equally wonderful too.


----------



## Josquin13

My top three Brahms symphony cycles are as follows (& in no particular order, since it would be very difficult to choose between them)--note that each cycle is presently available in a pricey limited edition Japanese hybrid SACD box set (for devoted fans ready to splurge to get the improved sound quality), all nostalgically sporting the original jacket covers from the LP box sets (see links below*):

1. Eugen Jochum, London Philharmonic Orchestra, EMI. Jochum's earlier DG cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic is excellent too, but comes in mono sound (though very good mono sound). I prefer the stereo recordings myself (for the better sound quality). Either way, Jochum was a masterful Brahms conductor--somewhat in the Furtwängler vein (who was Jochum's idol), but with more restraint, & not so expressionistic, and better in Brahms, IMO.

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symph...41867501&sr=1-10&keywords=eugen+jochum+brahms
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Ger...541867501&sr=1-9&keywords=eugen+jochum+brahms
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symph...541867501&sr=1-5&keywords=eugen+jochum+brahms
https://www.amazon.com/Eugen-Jochum...-1-fkmr2&keywords=eugen+jochum+brahms+DG+mono

*On hybrid SACD (limited edition): https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-4-Sym...kmr0&keywords=eugen+jochum+brahms+hybrid+sacd

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Berli...r=8-3&keywords=eugen+jochum+brahms+symphonies

2. Istvan Kertesz, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Decca--these were Kertesz's final recordings before his untimely death, and they're very special--some of the best Brahms I've ever heard:

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symph...r1&keywords=Istvan+kertesz+brahms+hybrid+sacd
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symph..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=VPA8XBN7C3WF916EFSFG
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symph..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=VPA8XBN7C3WF916EFSFG

*On hybrid SACD (limited edition): https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Four-...r1&keywords=Istvan+kertesz+brahms+hybrid+sacd

3. Kurt Sanderling, Staatskapelle Dresden, Eurodisc--another fantastic set, with one of the great orchestras in the world at the time.

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symph...868154&sr=1-3&keywords=Kurt+sanderling+brahms

*On hybrid SACD (limited edition):https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Vier-...868154&sr=1-4&keywords=Kurt+sanderling+brahms

In addition, I've liked older cycles by Bruno Walter--both the Columbia S.O.(stereo) & New York Philharmonic (mono) sets, and Bernard Haitink's first Philips cycle with the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam.

Historically, any live Brahms recordings by Pierre Monteux are well worth seeking out, along with his Decca studio recording of the 2nd (although Monteux once said that he disliked all his studio recordings, as he didn't think they were spontaneous enough--due to the many repetitive takes required in the studio)--so Monteux is definitely a conductor to hear live in Brahms). I should also mention that Brahms was Monteux's favorite composer throughout his career, and the composer once told the young Monteux that he preferred the way French conductors conducted his music, as opposed to German conductors, who Brahms said were all too heavy in their interpretations of his music. So, it seems that Brahms was more of a 'classicist' than is generally acknowledged or realized, after all, and yet his symphonies are so often performed in a heavy, thick 'late romantic' style--which the composer disliked.






Eduard Van Beinum was remarkable too--in anything I've heard him conduct, and his Brahms 1, 2, 3, & 4 are no exception, if you can find them all on CD (--I believe 1, 3, & 4 have been issued on CD). Sir Adrian Boult was good in Brahms as well. I've yet to (entirely) get to Otto Klemperer in the 4 Symphonies, but know them by reputation. I agree with others that Carlos Kleiber's 4th in Vienna is riveting and classically lean in approach.

Finally, although not universally liked, I retain a special fondness for Kurt Masur's first Philips cycle in Leipzig, simply because I love to listen to the delicate, highly refined playing of the old woodwind section of the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra from the 1970s, 80s & early 90s (or thereabouts). They sound like no other. Although I admit that their very best Brahms with Masur was a fantastic Haydn Variations, rather than in any one of the 4 Symphonies: https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Sym-N...1541867457&sr=1-18&keywords=kurt+masur+brahms. Even so, I like Masur's classically restrained approach to Brahms, as a refreshing alternative to the more heavily expressive interpretations, and as noted, Masur & his Leipzig woodwind section are particularly successful & wonderful in the finale of the Haydn variations.

(Brahms sets I'd still like to hear, at some point: I'd like to hear Charles Munch conduct Brahms, since he was a French conductor, considering Brahms' comment to Monteux. Lately, I've been enjoying revisiting Rafael Kubelik's conducting (his Mahler, Beethoven, Schumann, etc.), so I'd to hear his Brahms. I'd also like to hear all of Klemperer's Brahms Symphonies 1-4, too.)


----------



## Templeton

Enjoyed your summary, Josquin13, and will definitely be checking out your recommendations, starting with Monteux I think, as he is one of my favourite conductors. I already have the Jochum and Walter sets and agree that both are very strong candidates. In fact, it might be easier to identify poor recordings, as the standard for Brahms does seem to be generally very high.


----------



## 89Koechel

Templeton - Thanks for mentioning Monteux - geez, is Beecham entirely-forgotten? There's even an OLDER disciplinarian - Felix Weingartner, and HIS cycle is worth listening to. Thanks.


----------



## Merl

Templeton said:


> In fact, it might be easier to identify poor recordings, as the standard for Brahms does seem to be generally very high.


In that case start with Bernstein's tedious, turgid, self-indulgent VPO cycle (see also his VPO Beethoven cycle). For me Bernstein never got his head around Brahms. Schumann yes but Brahms.....a definite NO.


----------



## jim prideaux

Merl said:


> In that case start with Bernstein's tedious, turgid, self-indulgent VPO cycle (see also his VPO Beethoven cycle). For me Bernstein never got his head around Brahms. Schumann yes but Brahms.....a definite NO.


odd coincidence-as I posted yesterday while at work I was listening to YT.....Brahms' 3rd performed by Bernstein and the VPO...film of a performance that I turned off within 7-10 minutes...just an awful drag!

hey Merl...you missed the opportunity to mention a cycle I had not heard and consequently ruin my evening-losing your touch!!!!


----------



## Merl

jim prideaux said:


> hey Merl...you missed the opportunity to mention a cycle I had not heard and consequently ruin my evening-losing your touch!!!!


Hey Jim, have you heard Venzago's cycle yet?:devil:


----------



## starthrower

I bought this set for 8 dollars. Symphonies are by Sawallisch and Concertgebouw. Also includes concertos and overtures.


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> I bought this set for 8 dollars. Symphonies are by Sawallisch and Concertgebouw. Also includes concertos and overtures.


I thought that this set had the Sawallisch / Vienna Symphony Orchestra Brahms cycle on it? If it is that cycle it's had many negative reviews over the years but i think its not as bad as it's been painted. Yeah there's nothing brilliant about it but there's no serious duds among the symphonies, it's fairly lively (if a little underplayed) and his 3rd is actually very good. Much better than Sawallisch's 2nd cycle with the LPO (which also had a very good 3rd symphony but the rest were dull and the 1st symphony was awful). Dont know of any cycle he did with the Concertgebouw (unless i missed it).


----------



## starthrower

Duplicate post.


----------



## starthrower

Maybe it's Concertgebouw for the concertos? I'm pretty sure it's Arrau on piano, and Szeryng on violin. But for 8 dollars it's pretty good. 

I also like Abbado on DG, and Solti on Decca. And I have the Bernstein DG set.


----------



## starthrower

Duplicate post.


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> Maybe it's Concertgebouw for the concertos? I'm pretty sure it's Arrau on piano, and Szeryng on violin. But for 8 dollars it's pretty good.
> 
> I also like Abbado on DG, and Solti on Decca. And I have the Bernstein DG set.


Yeah youre right. Just looked. Its definitely Sawallisch and the VSO for the symphonies and the rest, as you said, is the Concertgebouw. Hurwitz gave the Sawallisch Duo reissue of the symphonies a bit of a savaging (if i remember) but he went a bit OTT as usual.


----------



## david johnson

Jochum/BPO
Klemperer/Philharmonia

these are good ones to add if one does not have them. They are the Brahms sets I have.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

david johnson said:


> Jochum/BPO
> Klemperer/Philharmonia
> 
> these are good ones to add if one does not have them. They are the Brahms sets I have.


Interpretively, I consider these two, along with Kertesz/Vienna Philharmonic and Walter/N.Y. Philharmonic (mono) among the finest Brahms Symphony sets I have ever heard.


----------



## amfortas

david johnson said:


> Jochum/BPO
> Klemperer/Philharmonia
> 
> these are good ones to add if one does not have them. They are the Brahms sets I have.


I just picked up the Klemperer set yesterday at my local second-hand CD shop. Greatly enjoyed #1; looking forward to the rest.


----------



## 13hm13

This young man -- Michael Johnson, oboist and part of the "greater" VC (vinyl community) -- shares his opinions on myriad _vinyl _releases of complete Brahms cycles (e.g., box sets).

*Couple of points, made in the video, to bounce in our "TC" community:*

Is the recent Rattle/BPO d2d cycle really that good? (Compare it to any cycle on ANY FORMAT).

The comments about Szell being a control freak and, hence (as a result), the sonics of many Szell/Cleveland's suffering ... your thoughts please! I'm going back to several of the Szell/Cleveland's in my library and realizing Mr. Johnson may have a point.


----------



## Common Listener

I only have the Harnoncourt, which Kelt didn't care for. Any other opinions? (I got it to replace the von Karajan of 2 and 3 I'd picked up to augment the Leinsdorf LP of 3 that I had (since Karajan's 3 was unrecognizable to me) and I'm happy with it.)


----------



## Common Listener

I've edited a post before but don't see an edit button now. I meant "any other opinions" on that (Harnoncourt) set.


----------



## CnC Bartok

I'd strongly recommend four cycles:

Jochum/London PO
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Kertész/Vienna PO

All are glorious, all have a certain "wow factor", all top quality recording too, unless you insist on digital?

And one not as yet mentioned, beautiful playing, beautifully romantic, wonderful pulse, and take out the aggressive edge Brahms can often have, and they're often my go-to set, and that's Jiří Bělohlávek and the Czech philharmonic on top form. They did the serenades too, recordings which rival Kertész, and outshine Boult and Abbado, and two further gems in the piano concertos with Ivan Moravec. Do check them out!


----------



## Merl

13hm13 said:


> This young man -- Michael Johnson, oboist and part of the "greater" VC (vinyl community) -- shares his opinions on myriad _vinyl _releases of complete Brahms cycles (e.g., box sets).
> 
> *Couple of points, made in the video, to bounce in our "TC" community:*
> 
> Is the recent Rattle/BPO d2d cycle really that good? (Compare it to any cycle on ANY FORMAT).
> 
> The comments about Szell being a control freak and, hence (as a result), the sonics of many Szell/Cleveland's suffering ... your thoughts please! I'm going back to several of the Szell/Cleveland's in my library and realizing Mr. Johnson may have a point.


Just listened to Mr Johnson and although I have some areas of agreement (more about his choice of older Brahms cycles than his comments about direct to disc recording) some of what he says is pish. Whilst Szell's Brahms cycle does suffer from a top-heavy production its no more than many sets of that age suffered from (Ansermet, etc). As far as the d2d tosh is concerned we've had all this before. How long before the vinyl audiophiles go back to championing quadradiscs (remember them?). All faddy nonsense in my book. I've not heard Rattle's latest set so I can't comment but if it's anything like his last set I won't be battering down the doors to get a copy. That particular set was immaculately played but often sluggish and occasionally schmaltzy and pompous. I can't be bothered with vinylheads waffling on about warmth and ambience and find it as annoying as moronic shellacophiles championing every crusty pre-war recording just because it's old, even if it was recorded in a hut, with an orchestra often out of tune and ragged at the best of times. Yeah, Szell's set is hampered a little by hiss and in your face sound but it's not a killer. Yeah Solti's set is very good and yeah Walter's Columbia set is excellent but so what? I don't need him to tell me that. Ive listened to them numerous times over the years and also to far more Brahms cycles. If he hasn't heard those then he needs to before giving his opinions. You can't say this new set is the dog's b*ll*cks without hearing the competition. I own more Brahms cycles than Mr Johnson has had hot dinners and there's no definitive set. There's ones I value above others but no one has recorded THE definitive set. Most conductors have brought something new to the table and I welcome that. Is this guy seriously saying that Szell's Beethoven cycle, for example, is particularly badly recorded (he states that ALL of Szell's recordings are affected)? It was recorded 60 years ago, ffs, at the infancy of stereo. Engineers were still experimenting with the medium.

Ps Mr. Johnson has an annoying 'tutting' sound he makes after some sentences. I expect he does it to sound intelligent but I personally find it irritating. It's not pertinent to the question but it does annoy me.


----------



## philoctetes

Just get the VPO or BPO, they don't need a conductor to play Brahms (jk)... but I like Guilini and Jochum and yes, Munch.


----------



## 13hm13

Merl said:


> Ps Mr. Johnson has an annoying 'tutting' sound he makes after some sentences. I expect he does it to sound intelligent but I personally find it irritating. It's not pertinent to the question but it does annoy me.


When you're that age (mid 20s, I'm guessing), you "know everything". Especially after several years in academia and armed with diploma. I went thru that MANDATORY phase in life where Nature keeps the cognitive dissonance high. Keeps life interesting


----------



## Merl

13hm13 said:


> When you're that age (mid 20s, I'm guessing), you "know everything". Especially after several years in academia and armed with diploma. I went thru that MANDATORY phase in life where Nature keeps the cognitive dissonance high. Keeps life interesting


Lol, yeah I shouldn't be so harsh and give him the benefit of youth. Similarly I knew EVERYTHING at that age. Now I do know everything, I realise I knew nothing back then. Hahaha


----------



## CnC Bartok

Merl said:


> Lol, yeah I shouldn't be so harsh and give him the benefit of youth. Similarly I knew EVERYTHING at that age. Now I do know everything, I realise I knew nothing back then. Hahaha


Yeah, but I am sure I knew EVEN MORE than you did back then! :tiphat:


----------



## 13hm13

Merl said:


> Lol, yeah I shouldn't be so harsh and give him the benefit of youth. Similarly I knew EVERYTHING at that age. Now I do know everything, I realise I knew nothing back then. Hahaha


Socrates at the end of life:
"scio me nihil scire"
I know that I know nothing.


----------



## CDs

Merl said:


> Lol, yeah I shouldn't be so harsh and give him the benefit of youth. Similarly I knew EVERYTHING at that age. Now I do know everything, I realise I knew nothing back then. Hahaha


On the bright side it's good to see someone as young as him enjoying and learning about classical music. I'm glad he is taking such an interest in a music genre that most people would say is for old white people.


----------



## 89Koechel

Nice assessments, Merl - don't let the criticisms of your style/substance get you down, so to speak. We all have our opinions, and NONE of them are … maybe … the "last word" for each one of us. Anyhoo, I like your preferences for the legacy of Szell (Brahms & Beethoven). Even a number of decades after his death, it's difficult to single-out specific criticisms of his ways with either of the "B's"/(Beethoven & Brahms, obviously), and he DID have a great Orchestra, at it's peak, to carry-out his discipline. … Not to be a curmudgeon, but I could mention the old recordings of Felix Weingartner, also. Well, take care, Scottish laddie, and hope you'll continue your interest in the specifics of some of the best recordings, wherever they might occur.


----------



## 13hm13

I own #1 and #4 by Alsop/LPO/Naxos. For most of her orchestral works, I've always appreciated Alsop'a consistent and steady rhythm. Her Barber CDs for Naxos are a treat. Many were engineered by Tony Faulkner--these have excellent sonics. 

Alas, the Brahms recordings do not have good sonics (prod/engr. Tim Handley ), with the orchestra sounding too distant. So, I won't complete the cycle with Alsop/LPO/Naxos 2 and 3.


----------



## Itullian

I love the Barbirolli set
The Bernstein DG and the Karajan 60's set DG are great too
And Klempy


----------



## Larkenfield

13hm13 said:


> This young man -- Michael Johnson, oboist and part of the "greater" VC (vinyl community) -- shares his opinions on myriad _vinyl _releases of complete Brahms cycles (e.g., box sets).
> 
> *Couple of points, made in the video, to bounce in our "TC" community:*
> 
> Is the recent Rattle/BPO d2d cycle really that good? (Compare it to any cycle on ANY FORMAT).
> 
> The comments about Szell being a control freak and, hence (as a result), the sonics of many Szell/Cleveland's suffering ... your thoughts please! I'm going back to several of the Szell/Cleveland's in my library and realizing Mr. Johnson may have a point.


I heard only the beginning of this young man's presentation and I will try to hear more later, but his general reserve in his personality and confidence is not inspiring. Direct-to-disc is the Holy Grail of analog recordings, and anyone into analog or vinyl should be jumping up and down to buy something like this. It's extremely rare in the digital age, and whatever the performances are, they're worth having just to experience the full measure of great analog sound in classical music and the spontaneity of the moment. I haven't heard the Rattle Recordings yet but I can't imagine they would be bad compared to other cycles because, after all, it's still the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, one of the greatest in the world. How bad could it be? And regardless, there would undoubtedly be a special sonic thrill to hear direct-to-disc performances of these great symphonies. I doubt that anyone who's never heard great analog recordings of this nature could possibly anticipate the thrilling benefits of such a recording process.


----------



## Merl

13hm13 said:


> I own #1 and #4 by Alsop/LPO/Naxos. For most of her orchestral works, I've always appreciated Alsop'a consistent and steady rhythm. Her Barber CDs for Naxos are a treat. Many were engineered by Tony Faulkner--these have excellent sonics.
> 
> Alas, the Brahms recordings do not have good sonics (prod/engr. Tim Handley ), with the orchestra sounding too distant. So, I won't complete the cycle with Alsop/LPO/Naxos 2 and 3.


You should get that Alsop Brahms 3. It's something very special. Like you, I agree about Alsop's steady rhythms. It's aso evident in her Mahler 1.


----------



## 13hm13

Merl said:


> Like you, I agree about Alsop's steady rhythms. It's aso evident in her Mahler 1.


In interviews with Also, she cites her most important mentor being Leonard Bernstein. But I don't think LB's often messy tempos and rhythms rubbed off on his pupil


----------



## Merl

13hm13 said:


> In interviews with Also, she cites her most important mentor being Leonard Bernstein. But I don't think LB's often messy tempos and rhythms rubbed off on his pupil


Hahahaha. Yeah, Lenny was hardly Mr Metronome was he? She actually has a surefootedness and sense of pulse like Karajan, Gardiner, Blomstedt or Scrowaczewski (and that's some compliment). Her Dvorak performances are good too but slightly spoiled by the recordings.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Any thoughts on the Warner reissuing of Furtwangler's Brahms?


----------



## Merl

Manxfeeder said:


> Any thoughts on the Warner reissuing of Furtwangler's Brahms?
> 
> View attachment 116361


Yeah but I'll keep em to myself for fear of upsetting the Furtyfanboys. :devil:


----------



## WildThing

Manxfeeder said:


> Any thoughts on the Warner reissuing of Furtwangler's Brahms?
> 
> View attachment 116361


I recently acquired this set and am loving it. If you appreciate the artistry of Furtwangler, his Brahms is distinctive and exceptional.

P.S. For anyone thinking about picking it up, make sure to buy the cd version and not the mp3 version. In the mp3 format the tracks are all mixed up, the music does not match the track names, and one of the symphonies is completely missing. A very poor job and a most unfortunate oversight.


----------



## flamencosketches

So just to co-opt this existing thread a bit, rather than starting a new one:

Which is a better Brahms cycle, Klemperer/Philharmonia, or Abbado/Berlin? What are some distinctive traits of each set? Obviously, I think, the Abbado will have better, digital (if I'm not mistaken?) sound, and I love his conducting, or what I've heard of it. That being said, I love Klemperer's German Requiem and I think he was one of the last true "visionary" conductors, and I think he would bring something special to the table. (Not sure how I feel about Furtwängler's Brahms... how is the audio on that new Warner box?)

I have long not been a fan of Brahms' symphonies, but I'm beginning to really like the 3rd symphony (been listening to the Karajan/Berlin recording).. and I probably owe it to myself as a discerning classical listener to give the others another fair shot.


----------



## bigshot

In general, Abbado is more "appropriate" and Klemperer is more "personal". I'm sure that holds true to Brahms too. Personally, Abbado's Brahms puts me to sleep, but I'm sure some people like it.


----------



## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> So just to co-opt this existing thread a bit, rather than starting a new one:
> 
> Which is a better Brahms cycle, Klemperer/Philharmonia, or Abbado/Berlin? What are some distinctive traits of each set? Obviously, I think, the Abbado will have better, digital (if I'm not mistaken?) sound, and I love his conducting, or what I've heard of it. That being said, I love Klemperer's German Requiem and I think he was one of the last true "visionary" conductors, and I think he would bring something special to the table. (Not sure how I feel about Furtwängler's Brahms... how is the audio on that new Warner box?)
> 
> I have long not been a fan of Brahms' symphonies, but I'm beginning to really like the 3rd symphony (been listening to the Karajan/Berlin recording).. and I probably owe it to myself as a discerning classical listener to give the others another fair shot.


The advantage of the Abbado set is of course the rarities that come as couplings in the set, plus pretty decent Serenades if you get the 5-disc box. And yes, the sound quality is fabulous, a very warm but natural sound. Strange, because I find his set oddly cold. They are very polished and precise readings, and he doesn't for me do anything wrong, but as indicated above, there is indeed something more personal about old Otto's readings.

Klemperer, in terms of sound has, I believe, been remastered, but the original recordings are debatably the best of Analogue! So you wouldn't have any worries there, I should hasten to add. I prefer him by a long way, especially his recordings of 1 and 4, with 2 and 3 slightly less superlative!? As gruff as one might expect him to be, there are clearly moments where he is having jolly good fun, and he makes Brahms smile to an extent only Belohlavek can match.

I have the French EMI References Furtwangler set, and I have to confess to preferring his Brahms to his Beethoven. I am sure I will be "corrected" for making that statement....my issue with the Brahms set is some appalling distortion (which might have been remastered out for the newest incarnation, I don't know), most notably at the beginning of the last movement of No.2. Up to that point, I felt I was getting used to the rubbishy old sound, but that made the set a non-starter as far as top recommendations are concerned.

The other super-duper sets I have would have to include the London PO set with Eugen Jochum; also Belohlavek's beuatifully understated Czech PO set, Kertesz, and the Manchester Skrowaczewski set, which will by now be either ludicrously expensive, or you might pick up the CDs ridiculously cheap. It won't be anything in between!


----------



## wkasimer

CnC Bartok said:


> The other super-duper sets I have would have to include the London PO set with Eugen Jochum; also Belohlavek's beuatifully understated Czech PO set, Kertesz, and the Manchester Skrowaczewski set, which will by now be either ludicrously expensive, or you might pick up the CDs ridiculously cheap. It won't be anything in between!


I wasn't even aware that Skrowaczewski had recorded them with the Halle - how does this compare with his more recent recordings on Oehms?

I agree about Abbado - beautifully played and recorded, but that's about it.


----------



## CnC Bartok

wkasimer said:


> I wasn't even aware that Skrowaczewski had recorded them with the Halle - how does this compare with his more recent recordings on Oehms?
> 
> I agree about Abbado - beautifully played and recorded, but that's about it.


I don't know the Saarbrucken recordings, alas, but the Halle recordings are well worth getting IMHO. Paced very sensibly, played very well, and all in all quite exciting performances. Actually I've just seen them on Amazon UK, and the individual CDs can be picked up for less than £1 each. A couple of them are on the US site for similar. Note these are early digital recordings, but there's none of the harshness I tend to associate with the early days of DDD.

Oddly enough, I don't have that many recordings of the Halle. I think that in the UK they have a reputation for being "past their prime"? Other "Provincial" (ouch!) orchestras do seem to have superceded them over the years - Birmingham, Bournemouth, Liverpool. I don't think these comments are facts, but just a set of feelings. The one other (excellent) set of CDs from them in my collection is conducted by James Loughran, a set of.....yes, Brahms symphonies! Is this "their" music for some reason?


----------



## jegreenwood

wkasimer said:


> I wasn't even aware that *Skrowaczewski had recorded them with the Halle* - how does this compare with his more recent recordings on Oehms?
> 
> I agree about Abbado - beautifully played and recorded, but that's about it.


Symphonies 1-3 can be streamed or purchased (as a download) from Tidal. I don't think you have to be a subscriber to purchase.


----------



## jegreenwood

Duplicate . . . . . . .


----------



## flamencosketches

Klemperer it is then. Thanks everyone.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Well, if I might still add two alternatives to your comparison, it would be Knappertsbusch for the old and Wand for the new recordings.


----------



## wkasimer

CnC Bartok said:


> I don't know the Saarbrucken recordings, alas, but the Halle recordings are well worth getting IMHO. Paced very sensibly, played very well, and all in all quite exciting performances. Actually I've just seen them on Amazon UK, and the individual CDs can be picked up for less than £1 each. A couple of them are on the US site for similar.


They're all actually available on the US Amazon site, although it takes a little bit of digital gymnastics to find them. I just ordered all four.

BTW, the Saarbrucken recordings are currently available cheaply at Berkshire Record Outlet - so is Skrowaczewski's Beethoven set.


----------



## wkasimer

CnC Bartok said:


> Oddly enough, I don't have that many recordings of the Halle.


I have a few, mostly with Barbirolli conducting.


----------



## CnC Bartok

wkasimer said:


> They're all actually available on the US Amazon site, although it takes a little bit of digital gymnastics to find them. I just ordered all four.
> 
> BTW, the Saarbrucken recordings are currently available cheaply at Berkshire Record Outlet - so is Skrowaczewski's Beethoven set.


I can't use your Berkshire Record Outlet, despite actually living and working in (the original) Berkshire! I'm likely to get stung badly for import duties, have been in the past.

I've got that Skrow Beethoven set. They are very good indeed, one of my sets in the upper echelons. Really hope you enjoy the Halle Brahms set :tiphat:


----------



## MatthewWeflen

I am partial to the Karajan 60s cycle, which is available as a Hi-res download from HDTracks. It is dynamic and thrilling, but is very detailed and lacks the sonic mushines that characterized his 70s cycle.


----------



## flamencosketches

MatthewWeflen said:


> View attachment 120771
> 
> I am partial to the Karajan 60s cycle, which is available as a Hi-res download from HDTracks. It is dynamic and thrilling, but is very detailed and lacks the sonic mushines that characterized his 70s cycle.


I have 2 and 3 from his 60s cycle on a CD. Really good 3, if a little smooth. (Maybe that's how it's supposed to be, I'm not terribly familiar with it). Haven't heard the 2nd yet


----------



## Guest

MatthewWeflen said:


> View attachment 120771
> 
> I am partial to the Karajan 60s cycle, which is available as a Hi-res download from HDTracks. It is dynamic and thrilling, but is very detailed and lacks the sonic mushines that characterized his 70s cycle.


I think the 4th from this cycle is extraordinary, especially the first movement, which is slower than usual, filling in the extra time with wonderful expressive detail.

My issue with the 70's cycle is in the engineering, rather than the interpretation. A bit dull and string dominated.


----------



## Merl

Totally agree about many of those recommendations, CnC Bartok. As much as i like Abbado's Brahms (its his best symphony cycle by far for me) it lacks Klemperer's 'personality'. As far as Furty is concerned I also agree that his Brahms is much better than his Beethoven (which i dont like much at all).However, even then Furtwangler is good in Brahms 1 and 4 for me, his #2 is just ok but he's appalling in #3. Jochum, Belohlavek, Skrowaczewski and Kertesz are all excellent. Ive been listening to Zehetmair's new set today and Symphony 4 is an absolute cracker. #2 lacks a bit of weight but the rest is just superb. Stunning sound, ravishing playing and a lovely airy feel to all performances. Hugely recommended.


----------



## Merl

CnC Bartok said:


> I don't know the Saarbrucken recordings, alas, but the Halle recordings are well worth getting IMHO. Paced very sensibly, played very well, and all in all quite exciting performances. Actually I've just seen them on Amazon UK, and the individual CDs can be picked up for less than £1 each. A couple of them are on the US site for similar. Note these are early digital recordings, but there's none of the harshness I tend to associate with the early days of DDD.
> 
> Oddly enough, I don't have that many recordings of the Halle. I think that in the UK they have a reputation for being "past their prime"? Other "Provincial" (ouch!) orchestras do seem to have superceded them over the years - Birmingham, Bournemouth, Liverpool. I don't think these comments are facts, but just a set of feelings. The one other (excellent) set of CDs from them in my collection is conducted by James Loughran, a set of.....yes, Brahms symphonies! Is this "their" music for some reason?


I have Skrowaczewski Halle and Saarbrucken. Both are really good. As for Loughran's Brahms cycle its one of the first i heard and still has a special place in my heart. The Halle are also my hometown orchestra and the first orchestra i ever saw live. Manchester...lalalala! Oh, and as for Skrowaczewski's Beethoven.......simply put it's the bee's knees (see my LvB reviews).


----------



## Guest

I might as well list my favorites, Kertesz/WPO (Decca), Janowski/Pittsburgh (Sony) Ansermet/OSR (Decca).


----------



## jegreenwood

No fans of Walter?


----------



## Merl

jegreenwood said:


> No fans of Walter?


Yep, another pair of excellent cycles.


----------



## DarkAngel

jegreenwood said:


> No fans of Walter?





DarkAngel said:


> 1950s Walter NYPO in very good mono sound, sounds absolutely nothing like the later 1960s Columbia set, very bold dramatic exciting performances, don't pass these over essential!
> 
> Throw in the mandatory extra Kleiber 4th...........


Walter fans yes..........but greatly prefer the 1950s NYPO vs 1960s Columbia set, completely different


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Walter fans yes..........but greatly prefer the 1950s NYPO vs 1960s Columbia set, completely different


They're different, certainly - but I like them both.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Manxfeeder said:


> Any thoughts on the Warner reissuing of Furtwangler's Brahms?
> 
> View attachment 116361


Get the Music & Arts set. By far the best Brahms set musically on the market.










In modern sound, I suggest the following:


----------



## NLAdriaan

My choice for #3


----------



## CnC Bartok

Merl said:


> I have Skrowaczewski Halle and Saarbrucken. Both are really good. As for Loughran's Brahms cycle its one of the first i heard and still has a special place in my heart. The Halle are also my hometown orchestra and the first orchestra i ever saw live. Manchester...lalalala! Oh, and as for Skrowaczewski's Beethoven.......simply put it's the bee's knees (see my LvB reviews).


Looking beyond the Mancunian bias here (!) there is still a part of me that remains resolutely loyal to the first recordings I bought of certain pieces. So it's Cluytens' Beethoven, John Lill's Beethoven concertos, Kubelik's Mahler, and....Loughran's Brahms! Kubelik aside, all of those were the old EMI Classics for Pleasure Label. What a treasure trove that was.


----------



## Merl

CnC Bartok said:


> Looking beyond the Mancunian bias here (!) there is still a part of me that remains resolutely loyal to the first recordings I bought of certain pieces. So it's Cluytens' Beethoven, John Lill's Beethoven concertos, Kubelik's Mahler, and....Loughran's Brahms! Kubelik aside, all of those were the old EMI Classics for Pleasure Label. What a treasure trove that was.


Bias! How dare you sir! Lol. Yep some of those old CfP releases were great. Macal's Dvorak New World remains one of my favourites to this day.


----------



## Kiki

Merl said:


> ... Ive been listening to Zehetmair's new set today and Symphony 4 is an absolute cracker. #2 lacks a bit of weight but the rest is just superb. Stunning sound, ravishing playing and a lovely airy feel to all performances. Hugely recommended.


Tbh I'm usually not a Brahms person. However, I submitted to my curiosity after reading about the Zehetmair set, and I have so far sat through 3 & 4 and found them quite convincing. There is none of those exaggerated "grandiose" or "romantic" treatment in Brahms that often turns me off as with some big name star stick wavers. (Tbh Brahms is "grandiose" and "romantic" enough for me to need any additional exaggeration, ahem, expressiveness.) I suppose it is Zehetmair's "essential" way that has convinced me. I suppose the sonority of the small ensemble also helps.

Do need a good audio setup for the Zehetmair to shine though, IMO.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

DarkAngel said:


> Walter fans yes..........but greatly prefer the 1950s NYPO vs 1960s Columbia set, completely different


I dare you to compare the speed of light finales of Walter's NYPO Brahms Second and Jochum's Berlin Philharmonic Second (both at the very end of the last movement) !!! :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Haydn67 said:


> I dare you to compare the speed of light finales of Walter's NYPO Brahms Second and Jochum's Berlin Philharmonic Second (both at the very end of the last movement) !!! :lol:


Absolutely smashing performances, nothing like that today, movement is marked allegro "con spirito" 
Good thing we have high quality studio mono recordings to revisit

The first time I heard the Walter NYPO my jaw dropped, this can't be the same conductor as the Columbia Brahms I was familiar with, I thought there must be a misprint or some mistake. Walter is a man possessed in 50s NYPO set, good point on mono Jochum 2nd even the timings are almost identical

54 jochum - 8:17
53 walter - 8:16

By contrast 60 Walter Columbia - 9.38 (although seems even slower in dramatic impact)


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

DarkAngel said:


> Absolutely smashing performances, nothing like that today, movement is marked allegro "con spirito"
> Good thing we have high quality studio mono recordings to revisit
> 
> The first time I heard the Walter NYPO my jaw dropped, this can't be the same conductor as the Columbia Brahms I was familiar with, I thought there must be a misprint or some mistake. Walter is a man possessed in 50s NYPO set, good point on mono Jochum 2nd even the timings are almost identical
> 
> 54 jochum - 8:17
> 53 walter - 8:16
> 
> By contrast 60 Walter Columbia - 9.38 (although seems even slower in dramatic impact)


Though Walter's Columbia finale lacks the excitement of his earlier version, his entire Columbia reading loses none of the poetic element found in the complete New York reading. In fact, I feel he projects even more poetry in the later interpretation. In my estimation, both conductors give us superb complete sets of the Brahms Symphonies. The later sets they recorded, Walter/Columbia and Jochum/London Philharmonic, are very fine as well, though perhaps not quite as special as their earlier sets.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> Absolutely smashing performances, nothing like that today, movement is marked allegro "con spirito"
> Good thing we have high quality studio mono recordings to revisit
> 
> The first time I heard the Walter NYPO my jaw dropped, this can't be the same conductor as the Columbia Brahms I was familiar with, I thought there must be a misprint or some mistake. Walter is a man possessed in 50s NYPO set, good point on mono Jochum 2nd even the timings are almost identical
> 
> 54 jochum - 8:17
> 53 walter - 8:16
> 
> By contrast 60 Walter Columbia - 9.38 (although seems even slower in dramatic impact)


Don't forget Furtwangler. The accelerando in the final coda:


----------



## Agamenon

Unbelievable, where is Giulini, a renowed brahmsian? 
Consider these:

Complete cycle (1): Philharmonia O. EMI
Symph.4: Chicago S.O. EMI

Symph. 1 and 2: Los Angeles P. D.G

Complete cycle (2): Vienna P.O. D.G

The Vienna P. O is the queen of brahmsian orchestras.

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/es/cat/4836224


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Giulini is very good; I particular enjoy his 3rd.

So many amazing Brahms cycles out there! So many interpretive possibilities! Of the many I've heard, my hands-down favorite is Jochum/BPO (in very passable '50's mono sound). He just gets the phrasings, emotions, textures, etc. down to a T. So gorgeous and expressive. But yet, I would certainly not choose it as a desert island set without hesitation as Abbado, Kempe, Walter, Furtwangler, Sanderling, Bohm, and Klemperer have given us tremendous sets as well; with Haitink, Solti, Karajan, Bernstein, Mravinsky, and Zinman hovering just below my top tier.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I sold my van Zweden set as I didn't listen to it. My first exposure to the Symphonies was Abravenel and Utah. The one I serm to return to.


----------



## Merl

I've not bought a Brahms cycle for a few weeks. I must skip off and rectify that. Lol


----------



## Maco

Hello guys and gals! I am new here and this is my first post. I also love Brahms. I listen mostly on Tidal. 
I am also striving to find some of the finest cycle performances of Brahms music.
I like the James Levine with Chicago Symphony Orch. cycle issued on Sony in 1976 and 1978.
On Tidal I have found another cycle performed by Kurt Masur (Brahms complete orchestral works on Decca-1983) with the Gewandhouseorchester Leipzig and I want an opinion from you, what do you think about this cycle, about the musical/astistical performance, how good is it and how does it compare with your favourites? Any imput is highly apreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Merl

Maco said:


> Hello guys and gals! I am new here and this is my first post. I also love Brahms. I listen mostly on Tidal.
> I am also striving to find some of the finest cycle performances of Brahms music.
> I like the James Levine with Chicago Symphony Orch. cycle issued on Sony in 1976 and 1978.
> On Tidal I have found another cycle performed by Kurt Masur (Brahms complete orchestral works on Decca-1983) with the Gewandhouseorchester Leipzig and I want an opinion from you, what do you think about this cycle, about the musical/astistical performance, how good is it and how does it compare with your favourites? Any imput is highly apreciated. Thanks!


Hey Maco. Welcome to TC. Masur is what you'd refer to as a traditionalist in Brahms. His readings were always straight, solid, well-played and to the point. If I had a criticism it would be that they lack the personalty of the much better sets available As a library or starter set to get to know the symphonies it's fine but so many others do it all much better (Levine, Dohnanyi, Wand, Szell, Zehetmair, Jochum, Skrowaczewski, Kempe, Walter, Jurowski, etc). Re-listening to Dohnanyi again, this week (Cleveland set not the Phil one) I was struck by just how good that cycle is. Sonically other sets are better but the sound is still very good and the performances are second to none. If you want excellent performances in digital sound then Stan Skrow / Saarbrucken is a great choice.


----------



## vincula

Has anyone tried this newly-restored Toscanini cycle?

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc349









Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Not yet, but I'll have to. An LP of that recording of the 1st symphony was my introduction to the piece and, though nothing will now replace Karajan's 1970s recording for me, I'd love to hear the Toscanini again, especially if the sound's improved.


----------



## Granate

Ok, I should post this on another thread for spare symphony recordings. I don't know if that one was long enough. But I guess many people are interested in symphony cycles. I just rejected the performance of the No.2 in the Kubelík one in Orfeo.

So deleting to post in another thread.


----------



## flamencosketches

vincula said:


> Has anyone tried this newly-restored Toscanini cycle?
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc349
> 
> View attachment 138880
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


What does "ambient stereo" mean? These are totally mono recordings I'm sure.


----------



## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> What does "ambient stereo" mean? These are totally mono recordings I'm sure.


It means this label fiddled with the recordings and will charge you $65.00 for the set.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Aargh, I hate it when record labels mess with historical recordings to try and make them “stereo!” It almost unvariably sounds kitschy, distorted, and artificial with all sorts of good stuff lost. I would much rather hear the original in all its faults (sometimes those old recordings reveal a surprising amount of detail) than someone else thinks it should sound. The only Furtwängler Bruckner available on Primephonic (my streaming service) is a “state of the art remastering” from Urania and it sounds hideous, like MIDI. As far as Toscanini’s Brahms, I’ve heard better things about his Philharmonia cycle rather than the NBC, and from what little I’ve heard of it I have to agree it’s superb.


----------



## starthrower

I have no problem with mono. Only poorly recorded mono. I am going to look into some of Hans Rosbaud's recordings. There's a Mahler box coming out in September. There's also a very interesting cheapo 10 disc set that sells for 15-20 dollars.


----------



## flamencosketches

I have to put in a good word for Marin Alsop's Brahms cycle with the London Philharmonic. These are truly great Brahms recordings. Highly recommended!


----------



## flamencosketches

Is this the Kempe cycle I see people praising? How is it? Moreover, how are the Klemperer Beethoven symphonies also included here? Different from his EMI cycle, I'm sure.


----------



## Russell Chee

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Aargh, I hate it when record labels mess with historical recordings to try and make them "stereo!" It almost unvariably sounds kitschy, distorted, and artificial with all sorts of good stuff lost. I would much rather hear the original in all its faults (sometimes those old recordings reveal a surprising amount of detail) than someone else thinks it should sound.


I couldn't agree more, though I must note that I've read nothing but positive reviews for Pristine XR remasterings. It's the Urania and Andromeda "ambient stereo" nonsense that really drives most up the wall.



vincula said:


> Has anyone tried this newly-restored Toscanini cycle?
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc349
> 
> View attachment 138880
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


In 1952 Toscanini made some live performances with the Philharmonia of the Brahms cycle, and these are simply splendid, better in most respects (orchestral timbre, naturalness of the pacing, dynamic contrast, even recording quality) than the NBC cycle! I especially like the First; worth a good hearing, hopefully.


----------



## Russell Chee

flamencosketches said:


> Is this the Kempe cycle I see people praising? How is it? Moreover, how are the Klemperer Beethoven symphonies also included here? Different from his EMI cycle, I'm sure.


A quick search online seems to suggest the Klemperer recordings are his 1960 live performances in Vienna. Haven't heard very good reviews, nor did I enjoy the recordings much - though they're from later than his stereo EMI cycle, he tended to be faster live, so they work out. But the recording is not good; it's very muffled and the wind balances Klemperer favoured get drowned out. Plus, as exciting as the prospect of Wunderlich sounds (and he does deliver) the 9th is rather ruined by Crass' um ... crass-sounding voice, and a very odd moment in the tenor section where the cymbals become out-of-sync with the rest of the orchestra, the net effect being a very draggy feel.

I don't know much about Kempe, so I can't tell you whether it's the right one, but they are apparently stereo performances from 1975-76. G'day :tiphat:


----------



## Russell Chee

DarkAngel said:


> Absolutely smashing performances, nothing like that today, movement is marked allegro "con spirito"
> Good thing we have high quality studio mono recordings to revisit
> 
> The first time I heard the Walter NYPO my jaw dropped, this can't be the same conductor as the Columbia Brahms I was familiar with, I thought there must be a misprint or some mistake. Walter is a man possessed in 50s NYPO set, good point on mono Jochum 2nd even the timings are almost identical
> 
> 54 jochum - 8:17
> 53 walter - 8:16
> 
> By contrast 60 Walter Columbia - 9.38 (although seems even slower in dramatic impact)


I'm not at all endorsing the performance, but Thielemann actually does something very similar in his recent recording on DG. Obviously a direct throwback to Furtwangler, though in my opinion more choppily executed.


----------



## vincula

Russell Chee said:


> In 1952 Toscanini made some live performances with the Philharmonia of the Brahms cycle, and these are simply splendid, better in most respects (orchestral timbre, naturalness of the pacing, dynamic contrast, even recording quality) than the NBC cycle! I especially like the First; worth a good hearing, hopefully.


Thanks a lot. I must check those out :tiphat:

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Is this the Kempe cycle I see people praising? How is it.


This is not Kempe's earlier and highly-regarded Brahms BPO cycle. That set is on Testament (see poor quality cover below). The cycle you get here is a decent if not spectacular set with the Munich PO. Dont get me wrong, its good, but the BPO set is much better, IMO. As far as the Klempy is concerned that question was answered by a previous poster.


----------



## Granate

Russell Chee said:


> A quick search online seems to suggest the Klemperer recordings are his 1960 live performances in Vienna. Haven't heard very good reviews, nor did I enjoy the recordings much - though they're from later than his stereo EMI cycle, he tended to be faster live, so they work out. But the recording is not good; it's very muffled and the wind balances Klemperer favoured get drowned out. Plus, as exciting as the prospect of Wunderlich sounds (and he does deliver) the 9th is rather ruined by Crass' um ... crass-sounding voice, and a very odd moment in the tenor section where the cymbals become out-of-sync with the rest of the orchestra, the net effect being a very draggy feel.
> 
> I don't know much about Kempe, so I can't tell you whether it's the right one, but they are apparently stereo performances from 1975-76. G'day :tiphat:


So in the end you don't really own this box, if you don't know how the Kempe Munich Brahms sounds. I'm looking for someone that owns this particular Membran set so I can check the SQ of any of the Beethoven symphonies from this Vienna cycle and compare it to all the editions available, including my Memories remaster. DM me if you can help me out. Thanks.


----------



## Merl

Granate said:


> ......I'm looking for someone that owns this particular Membran set so I can check the SQ of any of the Beethoven symphonies from this Vienna cycle and compare it to all the editions available, including my Memories remaster. DM me if you can help me out. Thanks.


I'm not sure if my Klempy Vienna set is from this box or not. Granate. First day back at work today but my hard drive is sat on the table so I'll check later and PM you. If my memory serves me correctly its not great sound quality, being rather bass-shy and a bit congested in places. Membran wouldn't have remastered it as they were merely a cheap Euro label who rereleased stuff in its original form. As I said, I'll check later.


----------



## vincula

vincula said:


> Thanks a lot. I must check those out :tiphat:
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


And you were absolutely right. What a thrill! I've found them all and a great YouTube channel too. Have started a thread on it too.

*T H A N K S* :tiphat:

Here it is, the complete cycle. Toscanini/Philharmonia





















Regards,

Vincula


----------



## vincula

I found the entire Brahms cycle with Van Beinum, one of my personal favourites. Sounds quite good too.






Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Animal the Drummer

He was a great Brahmsian, in the concertos as well - I have him accompanying Grumiaux in the Violin Concerto and Curzon in the D minor piano concerto and haven't heard better accounts of the respective orchestral parts anywhere.


----------



## brucknerian1874

I have more Brahms cycles than I care to admit. I'm always on the look out for more and this one has become an instant favourite.


----------



## Merl

brucknerian1874 said:


> View attachment 144689
> 
> I have more Brahms cycles than I care to admit. I'm always on the look out for more and this one has become an instant favourite.


I'm ditto with the Brahms cycles (I'm probably less than 10 from a full house) and reviewed this Jordan cycle in this thread but as much as I like Jordan I find this cycle one of the worst around. Its flat, dull and not a patch on Jordan's (Paris) Beethoven set (or inferior Vienna set) . For once, I found myself in agreement with Hurwitz (although he was far less enthusiastic than me and simply called it "crap"). Sorry.


----------



## brucknerian1874

No need to be sorry. On this side of the pond we don't set great store by Mr. Hurwitz's often 'left field' opinions. That said, I think it's one of the great miracles of being a classical music devotee; one's own opinion is king. 

I found Jordan's set refreshing and I think he and his players do particularly well in the 3rd and 4th (my favourite).


----------



## brucknerian1874

Merl said:


> I'm ditto with the Brahms cycles (I'm probably less than 10 from a full house) and reviewed this Jordan cycle in this thread but as much as I like Jordan I find this cycle one of the worst around. Its flat, dull and not a patch on Jordan's (Paris) Beethoven set (or inferior Vienna set) . For once, I found myself in agreement with Hurwitz (although he was far less enthusiastic than me and simply called it "crap"). Sorry.


No need to be sorry. On this side of the pond we have learned (often by sad experience) to take Mr Hurwitz's often 'left-field' opinions with a good pinch of salt.

It's one of the great miracles of being a classical music devotee; one's own opinion is king.

I found Jordan's set refreshing and particularly enjoyed 3 and 4 (my favourite).


----------



## Merl

brucknerian1874 said:


> No need to be sorry. On this side of the pond we have learned (often by sad experience) to take Mr Hurwitz's often 'left-field' opinions with a good pinch of salt.
> 
> It's one of the great miracles of being a classical music devotee; one's own opinion is king.
> 
> I found Jordan's set refreshing and particularly enjoyed 3 and 4 (my favourite).


Have you tried Zinman's cycle, brucknerian1874? Thats pretty good for a more modern set.


----------



## musichal

realdealblues said:


> I know you made your decision already but I will speak up for Dohnanyi as being one of the best cycles around.
> 
> I have over 40 Brahms cycles because of my absolute love for Brahms' Symphonies.
> 
> If I had to narrow it down to 2 recordings, Levine (Chicago) and Klemperer would be my recommendations of the two cycles that must be owned. Both are "Astounding" and of the highest caliber and in my opinion give you the 2 best visions of Brahms. They are 11's on a scale of 10.
> 
> Just below those Top 2 would be the amazing recordings from Wand, Dohnanyi, Abbado, Jochum (London), Levine (Vienna), and Sanderling (Dresden). They are all perfect 10's and are the absolute top shelf and are in a league of their own.
> 
> Furtwangler and Toscanini are of course both interesting to hear, but if you wanted a Mono recording I would take Jochum's Berlin recordings on DG over both.
> 
> I will again be the lone person who feels Chailly missed the mark with his cycle. It's good, don't get me wrong and I've heard far worse, but compared to any of the above it's an 8 out of 10. Listen to the first movement of the 2nd Symphony or the slow movement of the 4th and compare it to ANY of those listed above. Albert said "Elegant & Restrained" and I would add "Lacking Character, Impersonal and Anti-Climatic at times". Symphony 3 is probably the high point of the set.
> 
> It sounds like I'm being very hard on Chailly and I don't mean it to sound that way. It's a very crowded field with lots of choices and Chailly's new cycle is a "Good" cycle, but for me and others I know it missed the mark on being a truly "Great" one, like any of the others I mentioned.


Okay, you talked me into it - ordered the Klemperer Philharmonia and the Levine Chicago.


----------



## brucknerian1874

Merl said:


> Have you tried Zinman's cycle, brucknerian1874? Thats pretty good for a more modern set.


Funnily enough, it's on my list, along with Vanska and Zehetmair. I have listened to quite a few Brahms cycles recently. I found Sanderling too slow and without the necessary charisma to make it sound truly convincing; for that you need to go to Giulini (VPO).

Of the newer cycles I've heard recently, aside from the Jordan, I was impressed to varying degrees by Manze, Nelsons and Zweden.

I suppose the true test is how often you return to a particular reading/recording. Pausing for a little self-analysis I realise that as far as complete cycles go it's Karajan, Harnoncourt and Mackerras that take the honours.

I was introduced to Brahms symphonies by EMI Eminence/CFP cassette recordings of James Loughran and (I think) the Halle Orchestra. I'd love to hear those again.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Not just because the estimable Mr.Loughran was Scottish, I hope. 

I'm only joshing. That was a fine cycle IMO, one which served all aspects of the music well. It was my introduction to the Brahms symphonies and I too have fond memories of it.


----------



## realdealblues

musichal said:


> Okay, you talked me into it - ordered the Klemperer Philharmonia and the Levine Chicago.


I hope you enjoy them. They are different ends of the spectrum so they give you a nice balance. Klemperer gives you more of the classic German performance. Solid, clear orchestral balances and with a touch of Grandeur. Levine gives you precision, with no stiffness to the Rhythms and a more expressive nature without trying to over-romance the music for lack of a better description. Both equally valid interpretations. You'll either like both and enjoy their different flavors or you'll favor one which will tell you more or less which performance style you prefer in Brahms.


----------



## Merl

brucknerian1874 said:


> Funnily enough, it's on my list, along with Vanska and Zehetmair. I have listened to quite a few Brahms cycles recently. I found Sanderling too slow and without the necessary charisma to make it sound truly convincing; for that you need to go to Giulini (VPO).
> 
> Of the newer cycles I've heard recently, aside from the Jordan, I was impressed to varying degrees by Manze, Nelsons and Zweden.
> 
> I suppose the true test is how often you return to a particular reading/recording. Pausing for a little self-analysis I realise that as far as complete cycles go it's Karajan, Harnoncourt and Mackerras that take the honours.
> 
> I was introduced to Brahms symphonies by EMI Eminence/CFP cassette recordings of James Loughran and (I think) the Halle Orchestra. I'd love to hear those again.


Manze is decent but a bit light, Zehetmair has been discussed on here at length (some love it, some not so, I think it's great). I really like Nelsons a lot. I too have lots of affection for my hometown orchestra's Brahms cycle with Jimmy Loughran (it was infinitely better than Stan the Man's Halle cycle) and I did see him play the 4th in the early 80s and it was a much more subdued performance than in his propulsive CfP cycle but he was still a superb Brahmsian. I'm gonna rip it to the car now you've mentioned it. I love that set.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I have the following cycles and enjoy them all; each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Solti with CSO
Levine with same CSO
Abbado with BPO
Dohnanyi with Cleveland (have individual disks with 1, 2 and 3, haven't heard his 4th)
Rattle with BPO

Also, I am in the camp that loves Kleiber's 4th and that's the one I turn to most often.

I have ordered Klemperer's set as I've heard great things about it. Can't wait to hear it.

Also, I have an individual disk of Wand's 2nd but the sound quality is not that great, at least compared to above sets. It is an original CD and I wonder if RCA improved the sound when they remastered and put together the set. I have individual original CDs of Wand's Beethoven and I also bought the set and I found the sound on the set much improved.


----------



## wkasimer

Merl said:


> Have you tried Zinman's cycle, brucknerian1874? Thats pretty good for a more modern set.


I just listened to Zinman's #1. Rather disappointing - pretty tame stuff after listening to the likes of Klemperer, Wand, Karajan, Jochum, Levine et al.


----------



## Fpanny

pentaquine said:


> I have 2 cycles, Abbado/BPO and Haitink/RCO, and I'm trying to buy another one because I love the pieces so much. I have come down to Chailly and Dohnanyi/Cleveland. I've heard the former and I know I love it; the later has terrific reviews but I can't find sample so I don't know if I will like it, although I do love the conductor and orchestra so I probably will have a pleasant surprise with that route.
> 
> Which one should I choose? Have you heard both? How do they compare?


Do any of them have overtures, Haydn Variations, etc.?


----------



## Fpanny

pentaquine said:


> I have 2 cycles, Abbado/BPO and Haitink/RCO, and I'm trying to buy another one because I love the pieces so much. I have come down to Chailly and Dohnanyi/Cleveland. I've heard the former and I know I love it; the later has terrific reviews but I can't find sample so I don't know if I will like it, although I do love the conductor and orchestra so I probably will have a pleasant surprise with that route.
> 
> Which one should I choose? Have you heard both? How do they compare?


Abbado has good sound quality, and the orchestra sounds like they did with Karajan. My favorite cycles are Bernstein/VPO, and Eschenbach/Houston Symphony.


----------



## Triesta

I feel that Solti's CSO cycle is criminally under-rated. Soltian lusciousness and drama wedded with a truly excellent recorded sound. The CSO is both brawny and sweet, precise and intense righ across the piece. I particularly love the Second and Third, but as set, despite very stiff competition from every era (Jochum, Haitink, Abbado, Chailly etc etc) I confidently recommend it.


----------



## Merl

Triesta said:


> I feel that Solti's CSO cycle is criminally under-rated. Soltian lusciousness and drama wedded with a truly excellent recorded sound. The CSO is both brawny and sweet, precise and intense righ across the piece. I particularly love the Second and Third, but as set, despite very stiff competition from every era (Jochum, Haitink, Abbado, Chailly etc etc) I confidently recommend it.


Couldn't agree more, Triesta. I often forget about it when recommending a cycle but i've had it years and thinks its one of the better ones.. Most people expect it to be brash and no-nonsense but they couldnt be further from the truth. It's arguably my favourite complete cycle of his.


----------



## Heck148

Triesta said:


> I feel that Solti's CSO cycle is criminally under-rated. Soltian lusciousness and drama wedded with a truly excellent recorded sound. The CSO is both brawny and sweet, precise and intense righ across the piece. I particularly love the Second and Third, but as set, despite very stiff competition from every era (Jochum, Haitink, Abbado, Chailly etc etc) I confidently recommend it.


Agree completely...Solti/CSO set is uniformly excellent...all are good, #1 probably my overall favorite (love that 1st mvt repeat!!).. heard them perform it in Carnegie Hall in 1970 - first Solti/CSO concert I ever heard..it was amazing.


----------



## flamencosketches

Solti/CSO is on the way to me right now. I had it once upon a time and used to enjoy it, but this is well before I knew anything about classical music; I used to listen to it to fall asleep. 

The other cycles I have are Klemperer/Philharmonia (this is the set that made everything "click" with me for Brahms), Alsop/LPO (excellent) and Jochum/LPO (minus the 4th, which is difficult to find on a single disc). Funny, all British orchestras. Well, they all do a great job of the music.


----------



## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Solti/CSO is on the way to me right now. I had it once upon a time and used to enjoy it, but this is well before I knew anything about classical music; I used to listen to it to fall asleep.


The Solti is my fave of the four cycles I have. The others being Sanderling, Sawallisch, and Bernstein. I hope you enjoy it this time around.


----------

