# Working on the younger generation.



## SARDiver (Jan 6, 2014)

My kids and I like to play chess together. My 11 year old son challenged me to a game tonight, and in our billiard room, I have a nice little Visio sound bar with Bluetooth. Connected it to my phone, and searched for some chess-style music.

My favorite piece is Pastoral, and I have a couple of copies of Beethoven's cycle. I played Szell's 6th, and my son was able to pick out a few of the differences with Karajan's. Karajan is my fave, but I couldn't help but be pleased that he even noticed the differences. 

There's hope.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

What a privilege ! I never got to the level od differentiating between conductors. My partner dislikes classical music, and I hope to win kids to my side, so that I can hear more classical at home


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

What a lovely idea! Why don't you try Mozart, Piano concerts 1-27. 
I believe you will be impressed by results of your game


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

kids need to be inspired not forced. I think one of the reasons classsical is hated by youth is because it's shoved down their throats.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Try Vivaldi music, can be very inspiring. .


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## Nezte (6 mo ago)

SoloYH said:


> ".kids need to be inspired not forced. I think one of the reasons classsical is hated by youth is because it's shoved"..


I generally think its a mixture of this and it's just simply that times are changing. Society is constantly evolving and with that musical preference aswell. To note, I would also say that the advancement of technology and the Internet has been the leading cause of this trend; however, I just listen to music and I've never once picked up a instrument so my opinion is very heavily swayed against experience in the matter.
Source- A Slightly Depressed 17 year old


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SoloYH said:


> it's shoved down their throats.


*POISON*


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

posted by mistake


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Huh ? I honestly think, classical music is just pretty.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

BBSVK said:


> Huh ? I honestly think, classical music is just pretty.


Would you like other kinds of music?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

science said:


> Would you like other kinds of music?


I made several attempts to become a normal person, get oriented in Rock/Pop music and relate better to people my age. Occassionally, I found something I liked, but, on overall, it just exhausted me. Imagine me, buying a ticket to a big summer festival with various musical styles, and, with a sigh of relief ending up in the classical tent... Now I am 46, away from the mating market, and I don't care anymore. Seriously, aren't the sounds of classical music just more pleasant ? The only way I can model the mind of people, who don't like it, is, that they probably associate it with something foreign and pretentious. My partner says he associates it with something dead that doesn't develop anymore.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

SoloYH said:


> kids need to be inspired not forced. I think one of the reasons classsical is hated by youth is because it's shoved down their throats.


When I was college age in the 1980s, what turned me off to formal music education was their insistence one must study either classical or traditional jazz. A couple of decades later, I discovered classical on my own and developed a great love for it.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

BBSVK said:


> I made several attempts to become a normal person, get oriented in Rock/Pop music and relate better to people my age. Occassionally, I found something I liked, but, on overall, it just exhausted me. Imagine me, buying a ticket to a big summer festival with various musical styles, and, with a sigh of relief ending up in the classical tent... Now I am 46, away from the mating market, and I don't care anymore. Seriously, aren't the sounds of classical music just more pleasant ? The only way I can model the mind of people, who don't like it, is, that they probably associate it with something foreign and pretentious. My partner says he associates it with something dead that doesn't develop anymore.


I don't think classical music is more pleasant than other genres unless you choose to listen to pleasant classical and not to pleasant songs from other genres. In fact, I think there is a lot of jarring, exciting, or really sad classical music out there. I was wondering if you're interested in that, or if you actually prefer to listen to the pleasant ones.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

science said:


> I don't think classical music is more pleasant than other genres unless you choose to listen to pleasant classical and not to pleasant songs from other genres. In fact, I think there is a lot of jarring, exciting, or really sad classical music out there. I was wondering if you're interested in that, or if you actually prefer to listen to the pleasant ones.


I prefer pleasant one, which is also a standard concert repertoire where I live. We have met before in the "pops" thread, remember ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

science said:


> I don't think classical music is more pleasant than other genres unless you choose to listen to pleasant classical and not to pleasant songs from other genres. In fact, I think there is a lot of jarring, exciting, or really sad classical music out there. I was wondering if you're interested in that, or if you actually prefer to listen to the pleasant ones.


OK, that is not the full truth. I am primarily an opera fan. Operatic singing requires some adjustment, I understand why some people dislike the soprano voice, especially. I adjusted at 7 years old and other voices sound "diluted" to me ever since. But I would be careful in imposing this on somebody. 

However, imagine doing some gardening, playing Beethoven Kaiser concerto from the tape, and the neighbors over the fence tell you, they suffered through the whole thing. That was a surprise of my life ! They later took revenge by putting on the tape with the village brass banda...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

BBSVK said:


> I prefer pleasant one, which is also a standard concert repertoire where I live. We have met before in the "pops" thread, remember ?


I don't particularly care about the "relaxing" or pretty element of music most of the time. It is nice sometimes, of course, but usually I enjoy the more "interesting" music even more. I'm sympathetic to the idea that the world is ugly and brutal and we need a refuge of beauty somewhere, but maybe what I need even more is a stimulating distraction.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

science said:


> I don't particularly care about the "relaxing" or pretty element of music most of the time. It is nice sometimes, of course, but usually I enjoy the more "interesting" music even more. I'm sympathetic to the idea that the world is ugly and brutal and we need a refuge of beauty somewhere, but maybe what I need even more is a stimulating distraction.


I think classical is prettier even if it is sad or dramatic. By now, I understand it is not an objective truth. But on the gut level I don't. 

You are probably at advanced level and listen to stuff I never do, a modern classic, possibly a very dissonant music ? That is not something an ordinary person in the street would think of, when you ask them if they like classical. Also this thread started with Pastoral symphony.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

BBSVK said:


> I think classical is prettier even if it is sad or dramatic. By now, I understand it is not an objective truth. But on the gut level I don't.
> 
> You are probably at advanced level and listen to stuff I never do, a modern classic, possibly a very dissonant music ? That is not something an ordinary person in the street would think of, when you ask them if they like classical. Also this thread started with Pastoral symphony.


I definitely do listen to a lot of music that ordinary people would not think of as classical music. I think a lot of people are being dismissive when they say classical music is relaxing and pretty. I think the word I'd choose is complex, but to be fair a lot of pop music is really complex too.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

classical music includes a mix of extremely - for lack of a better word, "purely artistic" music, things which were almost explicitly meant as background music or light entertainment, and anything in between. it's not really possible to nail any given attribute like "pretty" or "relaxing" to it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Playing a Tabakov symphony right now and I can assure you, "relaxing" and "pretty" are about as inappropriate as it gets to describe this music.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

fbjim said:


> classical music includes a mix of extremely - for lack of a better word, "purely artistic" music, things which were almost explicitly meant as background music or light entertainment, and anything in between. it's not really possible to nail any given attribute like "pretty" or "relaxing" to it.


I was never interested in history. People in a position to write down their memories and then emphasize what they thought was important. So haphazard. The problem with history is that so little of it got reported and documented that we just have a fragmentary view of it all. ‘Not very satisfying, unless you just want a general overview. Hopefully, it’s not wrong (like the recent idea that a large chunk is missing).

BUT it's all different with the history of music. Because we can see how the knowledge of harmony expanded (documented in the scores) especially from the 1500s to Bach, and then through Haydn/Mozart with their classical imperatives, to Beethoven (with his amazing dedication to the development of effective music and his problems and his big ego) and then Chopin's uncomfortable dissonances — to the whole tone scales of Debussy, to the extreme chromaticism of Wagner, to the explorations of atonality and polychordalism/minimalism. Each reacting against their parent’s and grandparent’s world of dead-end traditional stuff, as they saw it. (The more music you hear and study and compose, the more you seek out the advanced music around you.)

So, as I see it, the greatest works of any decade are the cutting edge attempts at the time, and they were very new to those students and audiences. I try to remember that in all music before William Byrd. What’s boring music to many folks can be seen as groundbreaking, state-of-the-art.

The discovery of harmonic intervals and the earliest mysterious resolutions, then the growing need for the rise of dissonance, the whole tone scales, chromaticism, atonality, — these are all so familiar to a musician today. They run repeatedly through the musician’s own path of development.


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

Classical music isn't anything specific really. It's just music that was written in a period of time. It's not "relaxing", nor is it "boring", or "academic", etc. We can find any type of music, whether it's genre, texture, or mood in classical music. What I disliked growing up was my parent's (MOM), insistence on learning the piano/violin/guitar, and how I have to practice to become better. I didn't understand why it was necessary and me not enjoying the music, was turned off by the fact that my parents (MOM) pushed it so hard. I equated it as being "uncool" or boring.

Later I discovered it again by chance in my young adult life. Rest is history. Inspire children to become masters of the craft by their own will, not by force. Ultimately life is just that and we should do what we enjoy, children are not you, and we can always lead them but we cannot force others our own desires.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

SoloYH said:


> Classical music isn't anything specific really. It's just music that was written in a period of time. It's not "relaxing", nor is it "boring", or "academic", etc. We can find any type of music, whether it's genre, texture, or mood in classical music. What I disliked growing up was my parent's (MOM), insistence on learning the piano/violin/guitar, and how I have to practice to become better. I didn't understand why it was necessary and me not enjoying the music, was turned off by the fact that my parents (MOM) pushed it so hard. I equated it as being "uncool" or boring.
> 
> Later I discovered it again by chance in my young adult life. Rest is history. Inspire children to become masters of the craft by their own will, not by force. Ultimately life is just that and we should do what we enjoy, children are not you, and we can always lead them but we cannot force others our own desires.


These dragon parents, forcing their children to play piano, is a totally foreign world for me. I don't think anybody in this thread is gearing in that direction.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Yes, parents want kids to learn music while they're young. BUT, imagine a world-class chess player or tennis player starting so late (10 or 15 years of age).

Kids need to be taught music in the same manner that they're learning what's so important to them during the different stages of youth. Some kids find arithmetic (logic and integers in music) to be interesting (not many kids). Some kids are into superhero worship (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven). Some kids are into quirky stories and bios from history (not very many kids).

Most kids are quite seriously developing their social skills so that they can be socially 'successful' later on. It's instinctual.
So how do we teach children to read music (as one more language, it's quite late for language acquisition I know) and understand what they're playing (relevance for their age and level of maturity)? We can't change the way children must grow up.. We teachers should try to keep all the crosscurrents in mind.

Those old pedalogical teaching books will create a world-class pianist if everything else is perfect. Otherwise they are a sure way of giving a young person a totally incorrect view of what a musician should be able to do for the rest of his life. I mean, sitting down and playing whatever you want effortlessly, and finding out in the exploration so much more than merely the sum of the parts.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I have no aspiration that my children should play an instrument. I myself can't do that. I would like to have enjoyable moments together as I had with my parents, rather than put the headphones on in my own household every time I want to listen to things I like.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I have no aspiration that my children should play an instrument. I myself can't do that. I would like to have enjoyable moments together as I had with my parents, rather than put the headphones on in my own household every time I want to listen to things I like.


That's interesting to me as a longtime piano teacher. The joke is that the parents are the worst thing about teaching music to children. The children are a delight and they can be seen as a blank slate. 

I did have the experience of watching a young man grow up (from the age of 6) and become a world-class pianist. I think what happened in his education was that he was 'forced' just young enough, by his somewhat older parents and their acquaintance with a professor of music, who later taught the child when the remarkable development was recognized. Older parents tend to raise their children differently than young parents.

What kind of music did you listen to with your parents? This is so important if it can feel natural to the youngsters.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Luchesi said:


> What kind of music did you listen to with your parents? This is so important if it can feel natural to the youngsters.


"Pops" in the car. At home, the classical radio was on very often. At my granparents, I discovered a beautifully illustrated libretto to Smetana's Bartered Bride, wanted to listen to the stuff, so they bought the vinyls for me, I memorized it...


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> These dragon parents, forcing their children to play piano, is a totally foreign world for me. I don't think anybody in this thread is gearing in that direction.


Sorry I didn't mean that anyone was headed that way here. Just putting my two thoughts in, didn't mean to imply anyone was doing something wrong in any way.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> "Pops" in the car. At home, the classical radio was on very often. At my granparents, I discovered a beautifully illustrated libretto to Smetana's Bartered Bride, wanted to listen to the stuff, so they bought the vinyls for me, I memorized it...


So many got so much from being fed tracks to listen to on radio. Today we choose what and when. I don't know if it's a backward step. I can see it healthy either way.


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## SARDiver (Jan 6, 2014)

SoloYH said:


> kids need to be inspired not forced. I think one of the reasons classsical is hated by youth is because it's shoved down their throats.


Well, we listen to everything but rap/hip hop. Nothing shoved down the kids' throats, but I like to listen to about everything, and I think exposing them to it all let's them at least know it's out there.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

As a teenager, our elder son was a big rock music fan and definitely not into anything his boring parents enjoyed. Fair enough: he was/is also a stunningly good guitarist, mostly self-taught. However, to his chagrin and my secret delight, a couple of pieces of classical music absolutely grabbed him at first hearing. They were Mussorgsky's Pictures (piano score) and SVR's Isle of the Dead.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

SoloYH said:


> kids need to be inspired not forced. I think one of the reasons classsical is hated by youth is because it's shoved down their throats.


I think the older generation has lost the capacity to force anything on the young. Kids mostly do as they please now, and classical music is largely unappealing to them; they prefer listening to sound effects.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Red Terror said:


> I think the older generation has lost the capacity to force anything on the young. Kids mostly do as they please now, and classical music is largely unappealing to them; they prefer listening to sound effects.


The 'older' generation was raised with the new permissiveness and self-esteem concepts, so that it's unlikely that they were exposed to the subtle advantages (like 'forced' delayed gratification and the work ethic) of the disciplined upbringing. This has been the long trend, from the extreme disciplinarians of the Great Depression era, and before. 
Psychologists say it's better for young people today.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Red Terror said:


> I think the older generation has lost the capacity to force anything on the young. Kids mostly do as they please now, and classical music is largely unappealing to them; they prefer listening to sound effects.


I’m glad the older generation has lost the capacity to force anything on the youth. The generation of my grandparents were still being raised in a toxic way, with parents having full authority over their child’s actions. This is what I learned at school in our history book btw, it’s not made up. There is still good music being made that isn’t classical, you just have to look for it more than you used to. Classical music wasn’t popular with the youth 80 years ago as well so there isn’t a very big change


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

Red Terror said:


> I think the older generation has lost the capacity to force anything on the young. Kids mostly do as they please now, and classical music is largely unappealing to them; they prefer listening to sound effects.


The thing is, modern music is based off of classical. You listen to any songs and you recognize classical elements in it, just with modern instruments or rhythm. Kids who enjoy classical will study it, otherwise there's no reason to force it on them.

I forsee a mainstream movement back to classical/baroque style of writing, but with modern elements. I hear a lot of fugal writing on the radio thesedays made with synthesizers.


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