# Saccharine music



## Dim7

Recommend me most nauseatingly, disgustingly sweet, testosterone-depriving,sentimental and saccharine classical music. OR just sweet and pretty classical music.


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## starthrower

Is this guy kidding, or what?


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## violadude

Here's a classic example that gets mentioned often as one of the most syrupy classical music around.

Rachmaninoff symphony 2 movement 3


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## Figleaf

starthrower said:


> Is this guy kidding, or what?


I don't know. But I gave this thread one star ('terrible') for the the thread starter's genocide-themed banter. Started in a different way entirely, it might have been a pretty fun thread.


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## violadude

Figleaf said:


> I don't know. But I gave this thread one star ('terrible') for the the thread starter's genocide-themed banter. Started in a different way entirely, it might have been a pretty fun thread.


Are YOU kidding?


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## sharik

Dim7 said:


> Recommend me most nauseatingly, disgustingly sweet, testosterone-depriving,sentimental and saccharine classical music


no such exists.


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## Dim7

starthrower said:


> Is this guy kidding, or what?


Obviously I'm being a bit hyperbolic but kidding, no. Why would you think that?

I've always liked that Rachmaninov movement, and now that violadude meantioned it, it's quite saccharine indeed! Delius is also rather sentmental.


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## sharik

well, Jacque Offenbach wrote extremely sweet music, but far from being 'testosterone-depriving'.


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## sharik

Dim7 said:


> I've always liked that Rachmaninov movement, and now that violadude meantioned it, it's quite saccharine indeed!


it is but there's also a lot of adrenaline to it.


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## Dim7

Figleaf said:


> I don't know. But I gave this thread one star ('terrible') for the the thread starter's genocide-themed banter. Started in a different way entirely, it might have been a pretty fun thread.


I removed the perhaps lame/tasteless, apparently offensive Hitler joke, though if it was genocide-themed at all (not really) it was about preventing genocide.


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## Figleaf

Dim7 said:


> I removed the perhaps lame/tasteless, apparently offensive Hitler joke, though if it was genocide-themed at all (not really) it was about preventing genocide.


Thank you...........


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## violadude

Really? One mention of Hitler's name is enough to warrant calling the content "genocidally-themed"?


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## Figleaf

violadude said:


> Really? One mention of Hitler's name is enough to warrant calling the content "genocidally-themed"?


Of course not. I assume you saw the post after Dim7 kindly edited it- so you and I have been talking at cross-purposes.


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## Skilmarilion

It's always Rachmaninov, isn't it?  (lol)

That movement is so expertly crafted -- the way he gradually builds tension towards the climax in the middle of the movement is just incredible. It just so happens that it is abundant in gorgeous melody, along with that lush, especially Rachmaninovian orchestration.


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## violadude

Skilmarilion said:


> It's always Rachmaninov, isn't it?  (lol)
> 
> That movement is so expertly crafted -- the way he gradually builds tension towards the climax in the middle of the movement is just incredible. It just so happens that it is abundant in gorgeous melody, along with that lush, especially Rachmaninovian orchestration.


Well, I didn't necessarily say it was bad, I just think it fits the description of the OP.


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## Chris

You asked for it, OP


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## Dim7

Yeah I didn't mean the suggested pieces had to be actually bad , I was just being hyperbolic and ironic for no good reason. So if you have sweet/pretty/emotional piece you want to suggested that you also think is in good taste and well-crafted, post it here. But ALSO pieces that are in your opinion cheesy and syrupy are welcome here.


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## Skilmarilion

violadude said:


> Well, I didn't necessarily say it was bad, I just think it fits the description of the OP.


Sure, I've just come across a few discussions like this before and it seems like Rachmaninov always 'fits the bill', with negative connotations attached. Just thought I'd throw in a compliment or two for good measure. 



Dim7 said:


> ... if you have sweet/pretty/emotional piece you want to suggested that you also think is in good taste and well-crafted, post it here. But ALSO pieces that are in your opinion cheesy and syrupy are welcome here.


Well that's the problem though -- people will subscribe to one of those two opinions usually, and that's why I just wanted to say that the Rachmaninov for me is certainly in the 'good taste, well-crafted' category.


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## violadude

Chris said:


> You asked for it, OP











..........................................


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## violadude

Skilmarilion said:


> Sure, I've just come across a few discussions like this before and it seems like Rachmaninov always 'fits the bill', with negative connotations attached. Just thought I'd throw in a compliment or two for good measure.


Well, I wouldn't say Rachmaninoff in general fits the bill, just a few of his works.


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## Mandryka

Bénédiction de dieu dans la solitude (Liszt)
Piano and Sting Quartet (Feldman)
Una Limosna por l'Amour de Dios (Barrios)


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## Weston

Since my Rachmaninoff example is already taken (and rightly so), I would say Beethoven's Pathetique sonata movement 2 is the next most obvious choice. Of course this performer's exaggerated touchy-feely facial expressions don't help. Actually I love the movement. One of my favorites.


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## violadude

Mandryka said:


> Bénédiction de dieu dans la solitude (Liszt)
> *Piano and Sting Quartet (Feldman)*
> Una Limosna por l'Amour de Dios (Barrios)


Que?

Arai Wah?

What?


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## elgar's ghost

Some of Korngold's Hollywood film music could come in to this category, I suppose - but that's only because Korngold, like others such as Franz Waxman, was adept at composing music that perfectly complemented whatever films they were commissioned to write the scores for.


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## EdwardBast

violadude said:


> Here's a classic example that gets mentioned often as one of the most syrupy classical music around.
> 
> Rachmaninoff symphony 2 movement 3


I think that movement is brilliant and subtle.


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## DeepR

Interesting that Russians like Tchaikovksy and Rachmaninoff always show up while I think the French composers like Debussy, Ravel, Satie... all have at least a few of such pieces that would fit the OP's description much better.


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## Alfacharger

I wrote in the currently listening thread that Herrmann's "April" from the song cycle "The Fantasticks" raised my blood sugar level by 50 points.

It starts at the 13 minute mark.


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## Chronochromie

DeepR said:


> Interesting that Russians like Tchaikovksy and Rachmaninoff always show up while I think the French composers like *Debussy, Ravel, Satie*... all have at least a few of such pieces that would fit the OP's description much better.


 
15 characters


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## TurnaboutVox

Dim7 said:


> Delius is also rather sentmental.


Well, yes, but the sentiments are usually somewhat bitter-sweet, with heavy doses of regret, sadness and nostalgia. I often find myself deeply moved, listening to Delius, and sometimes in tears. A lot of it seems to me to evoke feelings of loss (when you consider Delius' position later in life this wouldn't be surprising.)

And that's not saccharine Delius is using to sweeten things, it's top quality sugar cane (or possibly orange juice!).


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## Haydn man

This looks like a thread going nowhere
Not the first won't be the last


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## Guest

If you want sweet melody along the lines of the Rachmaninoff and LvB Pathetique already mentioned, Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony, Movement 2. Sweet melody, gushing with emotion, but absolute perfection.


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## Woodduck

Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony is a unique, inspired, beautifully constructed, richly textured, orchestrally sumptuous, thematically subtle, memorable, and, for many, deeply moving flower of late Russian Romanticism by a composer who, largely unsympathetic to contemporary trends in the music world of his time, could nonetheless take from that world what sounds and techniques he needed, remain completely true to himself, and create masterpieces to the end of his life, works which earned him the love of a broad public and eventually, after they stopped using words like "saccharine," the respect of the cognoscenti (some of them, anyway) as well.


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## violadude

Okay, I already said that I didn't necessarily think that the Rachmaninoff example was bad, just that it seemed to fit the description of the OP. Can we stop with the butthurt?


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## Woodduck

I didn't mean to spank you, violadude - honest! It's just the instinct to protect those we love.

It does help to sit on a cushion for a day or two. 

:tiphat:


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## DeepR

Der Leiermann said:


> 15 characters


I said at least a few pieces. I really don't think it's such a peculiar point of view. Maybe the Russians can get overly sentimental but the French are sometimes a little... feminine.


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## Woodduck

DeepR said:


> I said at least a few pieces. I really don't think it's such a peculiar point of view. Maybe the Russians can get overly sentimental but the French are sometimes a little... feminine.


Yes, the OP really should have included "nauseatingly, disgustingly feminine."

That could have opened the door to "effeminate," or perhaps "nellie," or even -  - "limp-wristed" or "twinky"...

Just think of all the great classical music we could make fun of then!


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## bigshot

Why is emotion and melody associated with being saccharine? Emotion and melody are important attributes of music.


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## tdc

DeepR said:


> Interesting that Russians like Tchaikovksy and Rachmaninoff always show up *while I think the French composers like Debussy, Ravel, Satie... all have at least a few of such pieces that would fit the OP's description much better.*


Can you give some examples of such pieces?


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## dgee




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## dgee

But I must confess to quite enjoying Lehar!


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## hpowders

OP: Most of Debussy's piano pieces. I break out in pimples just thinking of them.


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## tdc

hpowders said:


> OP: Most of Debussy's piano pieces. I break out in pimples just thinking of them.


You may not like them, but I still don't think they fit the description of the OP. Ravel, Debussy and Satie didn't write merely "sweet and pretty" pieces (I've listened to less Satie - but from what I've heard of him). I think people who think they did are missing the subtle depth and multifaceted nature of these pieces.


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## PetrB

I caution you that any of the below may imperil your physical and mental health, or gum up the speakers of your audio system.
_CONSUME WITH CAUTION, AND AT YOUR OWN RISK._

1.) Tchaikovskrachmaninov -- _just about all of it._ Keep those injections for insulin shock handy.

1.) Puccini ~ _Nearly any of it._ More of a tear-inducing gag on a flood of your own saliva trigger than chomping down on a block of honey-soaked Baklava or eating a half-kilo brick of Halavah. Even some who love it complain often enough about a lingering aftertaste of _soap._

2.) Samuel Barber ~ _Adagio for strings -- especially in the composers rearrangement for chorus aka "Agnus Dei."_ By many reports, you will need a therapist for the depression induced, _and_ an appointment at the dentist for all the cavities consumption of such a high sucrose piece will incur.

3.) Not classical, but film music: approximately 492,000 'love themes,' should help catalyze going all queasy while exercising your Lacrimal glands.

The mentions of Franz Lehar and the like, well, that is more Euro Sweet, i.e. far less sugar but plumped up by plenty of schmaltz (_chicken fat,_) which, when upgrade past that poor man's snack (the schmaltz was spread on toast), is lightly sweetened _whipped cream._ So much of an excessive or steady long term consumption there not only induces type 2 diabetes, but the additional benefit of clogging the arteries and leaving you a ripe candidate for a triple bypass. Taken in moderation, as a once in a while treat in an otherwise healthy and well-balanced diet, mmmmm. More than that = illness and death


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## hpowders

tdc said:


> You may not like them, but I still don't think they fit the description of the OP. Ravel, Debussy and Satie didn't write merely "sweet and pretty" pieces (I've listened to less Satie - but from what I've heard of him). I think people who think they did are missing the subtle depth and multifaceted nature of these pieces.


You hear what you hear. I hear what I hear.


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## Woodduck

dgee said:


>


This of course is even better with appropriately costumed hippopotami.


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## hpowders

Ravel Pavane for a Dead Princess. Ugh!

Acne attack!!


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## PetrB

Woodduck said:


> Yes, the OP really should have included "nauseatingly, disgustingly feminine."
> 
> That could have opened the door to "effeminate," or perhaps "nellie," or even -  - "limp-wristed" or "twinky"...
> 
> Just think of all the great classical music we could make fun of then!


I somehow don't think that would exclude Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov -- just sayin... "Alpha Sissies," lol.


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## MoonlightSonata

Sometimes I have to make dentist appointments after Puccini overdoses.


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## PetrB

Woodduck said:


> Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony is a unique, inspired, beautifully constructed, richly textured, orchestrally sumptuous, thematically subtle, memorable, and, for many, deeply moving flower of late Russian Romanticism by a composer who, largely unsympathetic to contemporary trends in the music world of his time, could nonetheless take from that world what sounds and techniques he needed, remain completely true to himself, and create masterpieces to the end of his life, works which earned him the love of a broad public and eventually, after they stopped using words like "saccharine," the respect of the cognoscenti (some of them, anyway) as well.


Saccharine, I think was a most unfortunate word choice. Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky are more in the arena of toothache-inducing genuine sugar-sentiment overload.


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## violadude

bigshot said:


> Why is emotion and melody associated with being saccharine? Emotion and melody are important attributes of music.


I don't think anyone said that.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Bad.
Good.

Over the top:


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## Woodduck

PetrB said:


> Saccharine, I think was a most unfortunate word choice. Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky are more in the arena of toothache-inducing genuine sugar-sentiment overload.


If you come to my New Year's party all you're getting is bitter melon, kale chips and green tea.


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## Guest

Poochini has to be up there.


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## violadude

Woodduck said:


> If you come to my New Year's party all you're getting is bitter melon, kale chips and green tea.


Yum. Those are good.


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## Chronochromie

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Bad.
> Good.
> 
> Over the top:


Excuse me? Is there something wrong with Jeux?


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## Richannes Wrahms

Of course not. There's nothing wrong with the Mahler there either.


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## Chronochromie

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Of course not. There's nothing wrong with the Mahler there either.


Oh, what a relief...I'm defensive since someone on this thread called some of Debussy's works saccharine.


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## tdc

hpowders said:


> Ravel Pavane for a Dead Princess. Ugh!


Funny, just recently in another thread someone named this as one of the most "poignant and sorrowful pieces of music" they had ever listened to. I also find the piece quite powerful and moving. If all you are hearing is saccharine, you are missing out.


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## Lisztian

tdc said:


> Funny, just recently in another thread someone named this as one of the most "poignant and sorrowful pieces of music" they had ever listened to. I also find the piece quite powerful and moving. If all you are hearing is saccharine, you are missing out.


Many feel the same way about works by Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky. They, too, are missing out.

Edit: Actually I don't agree with what I just wrote: I'm not sure anyone misses out on anything. What I was trying to say though is that the people thinking the 'impressionists' are saccharine are every bit as justified as those thinking Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky are. So you disagree that Debussy, Ravel, Satie are: others disagree that the Russians are. We all respond differently to the same external stimuli, and sometimes to a radical extent: Just as the composers were radical in their own differences of temperament and personal ideals.


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## violadude

None of us can even get out of this freakin solar system. We are all missing out.


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## hpowders

OMG!! How could I forget the slow movement of the Saint-Saens Third Violin Concerto. 

Extra sugar on your pancakes? Try the Zino Francescatti performance.


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## Woodduck

If you come to my New Year's party all you're getting is bitter melon, kale chips and green tea.



violadude said:


> Yum. Those are good.


Yeah, I like 'em too. But it's a _party_, man, a _party!_ (Damned Seattle health nuts...)


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## tdc

Lisztian said:


> Many feel the same way about works by Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky. They, too, are missing out.
> 
> Edit: Actually I don't agree with what I just wrote: I'm not sure anyone misses out on anything. What I was trying to say though is that the people thinking the 'impressionists' are saccharine are every bit as justified as those thinking Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky are. So you disagree that Debussy, Ravel, Satie are: others disagree that the Russians are. We all respond differently to the same external stimuli, and sometimes to a radical extent: Just as the composers were radical in their own differences of temperament and personal ideals.


You have a valid point, and you'll notice due to how the OP is worded I haven't listed any examples of music in this thread. I do think it is possible to "miss out" on subtle elements of music that one can catch later through repeated listening and/or just listening at a more receptive time. However, to your point there are also simply differences of preference as well, and this shouldn't be considered necessarily a deficiency on the part of the listener.


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## DeepR

PetrB said:


> Saccharine, I think was a most unfortunate word choice. Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky are more in the arena of toothache-inducing genuine sugar-sentiment overload.


I can't speak for Tchaikovsky as I haven't heard that much of his music, as for Rachmaninoff this claim is nothing more than generalization.


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## Lisztian

DeepR said:


> I can't speak for Tchaikovsky as I haven't heard that much of his music, as for Rachmaninoff this claim is nothing more than generalization.


And a highly subjective one at that: of course, I think he would agree with our little critiques.


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## Morimur

Woodduck said:


> If you come to my New Year's party all you're getting is bitter melon, kale chips and green tea.
> 
> Yeah, I like 'em too. But it's a _party_, man, a _party!_ (Damned Seattle health nuts...)


No booze or loose women? That ain't no party! I do love tea, though.


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## Morimur

hpowders said:


> OMG!! How could I forget the slow movement of the Saint-Saens Third Violin Concerto.
> 
> Extra sugar on your pancakes? Try the Zino Francescatti performance.


With you like some sugar with your sugar?


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## Woodduck

Morimur said:


> No booze or loose women? That ain't no party! I do love tea, though.


The tea and kale were only for PetrB. His just deserts (or in this case desserts) for calling Rachmaninoff sickeningly sweet. I'm sure he won't be at my party anyway, but if you come you're welcome to bring the booze and the women.


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## Marschallin Blair

> Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
> Yes, the OP really should have included "nauseatingly, disgustingly feminine."
> 
> That could have opened the door to "effeminate," or perhaps "nellie," or even - - "limp-wristed" or "twinky"...
> 
> Just think of all the great classical music we could make fun of then!





PetrB said:


> I somehow don't think that would exclude Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov -- just sayin... "Alpha Sissies," lol.


Are we talking _music_ or the worn-out end-zones of that male soap opera known as professional_ football_?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

What the hell is with this thread :lol:

Has anyone perhaps tried the disgustignly sweet, saccharine Memoriale by Boulez?


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## Richannes Wrahms

Meh.............


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## violadude

Marschallin Blair said:


> Are we talking _music_ or the worn-out end-zones of that male soap opera known as professional_ football_?


Why are you always putting irrelevant pictures in your posts?


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## clara s

violadude said:


> Why are you always putting irrelevant pictures in your posts?


"the body" is never an irrelevant picture for you gentlemen, as I see hahaha


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## violadude

clara s said:


> "the body" is never an irrelevant picture for you gentlemen, as I see hahaha


Ya, well I don't find that person particularly attractive, unfortunately.


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## clara s

violadude said:


> Ya, well I don't find that person particularly attractive, unfortunately.


she is now 50 years old

once she was in her glorious days when she posed for the covers of The Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue

now is the Irina Shayk style dominating the fashion world


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## Piwikiwi

Ralph Vaughan Williams' music is often a bit too sweet for me. His music is like Ravel but without the (slight) edge of Ravel's music. 

I'm just listening to the Rachmaninoff piece for the first time and while being very sweet, the quality of the piece makes up for it. I doesn't feel like he is trying to hard.


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## Skilmarilion

This thread should be merged with the "bore you to tears" thread or "who is the worst composer like ever" etc. etc., because it is no different to any of those and is simply an invitation to put down composers.

Labelling Rachmaninov et al. "Saccharine" is irritating to those of us who are partial to their music and do not find any such quality in the music.

This is no different to the other variations on this thread, for example when atonal music is labelled as "dull" or an "intellectual exercise only" or "aesthetically bad" or [insert other nonsense statement here], and will clearly be irritating to those who do not find any such qualities in the music.

As it was mentioned in one of those other threads, some positivity wouldn't hurt.


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## dgee

Skilmarilion said:


> This thread should be merged with the "bore you to tears" thread or "who is the worst composer like ever" etc. etc., because it is no different to any of those and is simply an invitation to put down composers.
> 
> Labelling Rachmaninov et al. "Saccharine" is irritating to those of us who are partial to their music and do not find any such quality in the music.
> 
> This is no different to the other variations on this thread, for example when atonal music is labelled as "dull" or an "intellectual exercise only" or "aesthetically bad" or [insert other nonsense statement here], and will clearly be irritating to those who do not find any such qualities in the music.
> 
> As it was mentioned in one of those other threads, some positivity wouldn't hurt.


Why not just own it? The opening of this is saccharine - but I delight in it!


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## Piwikiwi

Skilmarilion said:


> This thread should be merged with the "bore you to tears" thread or "who is the worst composer like ever" etc. etc., because it is no different to any of those and is simply an invitation to put down composers.
> 
> Labelling Rachmaninov et al. "Saccharine" is irritating to those of us who are partial to their music and do not find any such quality in the music.
> 
> This is no different to the other variations on this thread, for example when atonal music is labelled as "dull" or an "intellectual exercise only" or "aesthetically bad" or [insert other nonsense statement here], and will clearly be irritating to those who do not find any such qualities in the music.
> 
> As it was mentioned in one of those other threads, some positivity wouldn't hurt.


I disagree because I feel that this is a bit different. For example: I love late 19th century/early 20th century classical music by French composers but I do understand that you can criticize them for being too pretty and being quite superficial at times.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> Ya, well I don't find that person particularly attractive, unfortunately.


Seconded, and every time I see her I cringe and squint my eyes...Marschallin Blair! You're wrecking my face with this Macpherson model lady! :lol:


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## Lisztian

dgee said:


> Why not just own it? The opening of this is saccharine - but I delight in it!


If you delight in it, then it's not excessively sentimental (i.e. saccharine). Also, I believe, if the composer didn't think it saccharine when compared to what he intended to express/ didn't think it so in simple, absolute terms, then it isn't.


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## hpowders

Haydn man said:


> This looks like a thread going nowhere
> Not the first won't be the last


You can etch your statement in stone for the majority of threads on TC.

We make "poetic license" an art form on TC.


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## Guest

Skilmarilion said:


> This thread should be merged with the "bore you to tears" thread or "who is the worst composer like ever" etc. etc., because it is no different to any of those and is simply an invitation to put down composers.
> 
> Labelling Rachmaninov et al. "Saccharine" is irritating to those of us who are partial to their music and do not find any such quality in the music.
> 
> This is no different to the other variations on this thread, for example when atonal music is labelled as "dull" or an "intellectual exercise only" or "aesthetically bad" or [insert other nonsense statement here], and will clearly be irritating to those who do not find any such qualities in the music.
> 
> As it was mentioned in one of those other threads, some positivity wouldn't hurt.


It is your choice to see "saccharine" as a critique of the same degree as "boring" or "bad". I enjoy some saccharine music from time to time; some of it is a guilty pleasure, and some of it is just, well, dessert. I, for one, saw the thread as just a quest for a great dessert, until people started taking offense.


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## Skilmarilion

arcaneholocaust said:


> I enjoy some saccharine music from time to time; some of it is a guilty pleasure, and some of it is just, well, dessert. *I, for one, saw the thread as just a quest for a great dessert,*...


Maybe it was meant for the community forum then?


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## Marschallin Blair

violadude said:


> Why are you always putting irrelevant pictures in your posts?


Beauty is its own excuse.

Why the irrelevant question?


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## Mandryka

violadude said:


> Que?
> 
> Arai Wah?
> 
> What?


I think some of Feldman's later music is extremely cloyingly romantic. The quintet, Palais de Mari.


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## Marschallin Blair

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Seconded, and every time I see her I cringe and squint my eyes...Marschallin Blair! You're wrecking my face with this Macpherson model lady! :lol:


Ahhhhhh. . . you say the sweetest things.

Well, beauty is pain.

Hate me good.

- Preferably to this saccharine soundtrack:






_;D ;D ;D_


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## Marschallin Blair

violadude said:


> Ya, well I don't find that person particularly attractive, unfortunately.


I'm quite sure the antipathies would be mutual.


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## Marschallin Blair

clara s said:


> she is now 50 years old
> 
> once she was in her glorious days when she posed for the covers of The Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue
> 
> now is the Irina Shayk style dominating the fashion world







She's gorgeous as ever. I just love her.


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## Blake

Palestrina wrote some absurdly beautiful music. It'll castrate you, for sure... and probably give you diabetes.


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## Rhombic

Almost all 3rd movements of Russian symphonies of the Romantic period are saccharine: Lyapunov no. 1, Balakirev no. 1, Rachmaninov no. 2, Borodin no. 2, ...


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## hpowders

The second movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 21 in old-fashioned performances can sound a bit too sweet.


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## Woodduck

The health risks of saccharine have been overstated. It is known to give cancer only to mice, and only when they consume it in large quantities.

The mice in my house are exposed constantly to Romantic music. They come out to listen whenever the cat is asleep. They look plump, sleek, and happy, and love to sing along with the big tune in the finale of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony.


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## hpowders

Woodduck said:


> The health risks of saccharine have been overstated. It is known to give cancer only to mice, and only when they consume it in large quantities.
> 
> The mice in my house are exposed constantly to Romantic music. They come out to listen whenever the cat is asleep. They look plump, sleek, and happy, and love to sing along with the big tune in the finale of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony.


Perhaps they come out because they couldn't breath in the inadequate hell-holes you provide them for sixpence a month?


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## Woodduck

hpowders said:


> Perhaps they come out because they couldn't breath in the inadequate hell-holes you provide them for sixpence a month?


Sir! My mice would be appalled at your ignorance of micean musicality! Why, they are even capable of distinguishing music which is saccharine from music which is cheesy.


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> The health risks of saccharine have been overstated. It is known to give cancer only to mice, and only when they consume it in large quantities.
> 
> The mice in my house are exposed constantly to Romantic music. They come out to listen whenever the cat is asleep. They look plump, sleek, and happy, and love to sing along with the big tune in the finale of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony.


All of this talk of mice and Tchaikovsky is giving me Disney spells.


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## hpowders

Woodduck said:


> Sir! My mice would be appalled at your ignorance of micean musicality! Why, they are even capable of distinguishing music which is saccharine from music which is cheesy.


A deft attempt at deflecting the attention away from the likely Dickensonian squalor those mice have been living in.

Oh. The horror!


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> All of this talk of mice and Tchaikovsky is giving me Disney spells.


My mice will never deign to work for Disney studios - at least not until they can be cast in a proper _Gesamtkunstwerk._ _Die Micetersinger_, perhaps.


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## hpowders

Good post, micetro!


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## bigshot

I think a lot of people are terrified of emotion today. Back in the romantic era, they understood what it meant to feel and were able to express it better than we can. We are jaded and desensitized and our heart is gray. It's our loss as a society of course, but we see it as a failing in them because we are on the wrong end of the mule facing in the wrong direction.


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## MoonlightSonata

If there is extremely sweet music, does that mean that there is corresponding music for other tastes? I want to know what salty music sounds like.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Woodduck said:


> The health risks of saccharine have been overstated. It is known to give cancer only to mice, and only when they consume it in large quantities.


Give those mice equal amounts of sugar and they'd develop much serious problems than simply diabetes.


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## tdc

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of people are terrified of emotion today. Back in the romantic era, they understood what it meant to feel and were able to express it better than we can. *We are jaded and desensitized and our heart is gray*. It's our loss as a society of course, but we see it as a failing in them because we are on the wrong end of the mule facing in the wrong direction.


I think this is a generalization that is largely untrue. I think people actually understand more about emotions now and how to deal with them in a healthy way - more so than before. I think just as likely an explanation is that this generation is actually _more_ sensitive to emotions than in the Romantic era - that is why to many people of today the overt ways of expressing those emotions in the Romantic era seems like over-kill.

Think of the Vulcan analogy on Star Trek - the ones who don't understand them think they are cold and heartless and have no feelings, but the reality is the reason they act more detached is because their emotions are so much more powerful than the other races.

*edit* - I realize my post is also a generalization, but I'm just pointing out that there is likely a variety of reasons things are different today. People like to _Romanticize_ (sorry for the pun) the past, but there were good and bad things back then just as there are now. Ultimately there is a lot of value to be found in the music of the Romantic era, and there is also a lot of value in the classical music being composed today.


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## Chronochromie

MoonlightSonata said:


> If there is extremely sweet music, does that mean that there is corresponding music for other tastes? I want to know what salty music sounds like.






Sorry, I just had to.


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## Albert7

Vivaldi's Four Seasons always puts me into a sweet mood easily.


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## Mandryka

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of people are terrified of emotion today. Back in the romantic era, they understood what it meant to feel and were able to express it better than we can. We are jaded and desensitized and our heart is gray. It's our loss as a society of course, but we see it as a failing in them because we are on the wrong end of the mule facing in the wrong direction.


I think there is some truth in this. I found myself listening to Perrot Lunaire a couple of days ago and I felt that the expression of emotion was so strong it was almost embarrasing. I had a similar experience a few weeks ago with Ferneyhough's Transit.


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## Mandryka

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of people are terrified of emotion today. Back in the romantic era, they understood what it meant to feel and were able to express it better than we can. We are jaded and desensitized and our heart is gray. It's our loss as a society of course, but we see it as a failing in them because we are on the wrong end of the mule facing in the wrong direction.


I think there is some truth in this. I found myself listening to Perrot Lunaire a couple of days ago and I felt that the expression of emotion was so strong it was almost embarrasing.


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## Piwikiwi

bigshot said:


> I think a lot of people are terrified of emotion today. Back in the romantic era, they understood what it meant to feel and were able to express it better than we can. We are jaded and desensitized and our heart is gray. It's our loss as a society of course, but we see it as a failing in them because we are on the wrong end of the mule facing in the wrong direction.


Have you watched a second of tv the last couple of years? Emo"porn" is everywhere. That is the reason why I am desensitized because every commercial wants me to either feel sorry, happy or sad or just feel something.


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## PetrB

Piwikiwi said:


> Have you watched a second of tv the last couple of years? Emo"porn" is everywhere. That is the reason why I am desensitized because every commercial wants me to either feel sorry, happy or sad or just feel something.


Lol. How accurate that is. Now when I see a commercial with an actor / actress who is expert in looking and sounding as if s/he is about to burst into full mode crying/wailing/tears (with the starving sad sad children which the particular -- "non-profit, of course" -- organization which supposedly helps those children is trying to solicit funds from the viewer in the background natch), all I think is, if I were there in person, it would give the greatest pleasure to pull out my death-ray and free humanity of that particular presenter.

To avoid all that, and to avoid being seduced into substitute placebo non-real "friends" and "relationships" with the agenda behind it to keep me watching, the dictate that whatever the show it should not be as exciting as the commercial, and avoiding the commercials, is to shut off any and all network television and ban it from your life.


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## PetrB

starthrower said:


> Is this guy kidding, or what?


Of the two choices, I'm thinking it is more likely the "or what."


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## PetrB

Skilmarilion said:


> It's always Rachmaninov, isn't it?  (lol)
> 
> That movement is so expertly crafted -- the way he gradually builds tension towards the climax in the middle of the movement is just incredible. It just so happens that it is abundant in gorgeous melody, along with that lush, especially Rachmaninovian orchestration.


Eve Harrington comments on Rachmaninov:





N.B. I was mistaken, as Violadude points out (immediately below). The music in the clip is an orchestrated bit of Liszt.

Generically, about the saccharine and Rachmaninov, I consider it an apt placebo (the film choice having much to do with a public domain choice vs. paying copyright / royalties.)


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## violadude

PetrB said:


> Eve Harrington comments on Rachmaninov:


Isn't that an orchestrated version of a Liszt piece?


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## PetrB

violadude said:


> Isn't that an orchestrated version of a Liszt piece?


While I stand corrected, generically, as a public domain placebo in that commercial / film context, it'll do

I'll correct my post, though, leaving the error to not confuse yours.

and, thanks.


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## DeepR

Liebestraum No. 3 is a great piece. I'm in touch with my sensitive and romantic side.


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## Skilmarilion

PetrB said:


> Eve Harrington comments on Rachmaninov:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N.B. I was mistaken, as Violadude points out (immediately below). The music in the clip is an orchestrated bit of Liszt.


I like that Liszt too, and do not find it "cheap".

The point I have tried to make is, I do not agree that this "saccharine" or whatever similar thing, is something that is objectively there in the music, i.e. whatever it is I'm supposed to be hearing, I don't hear it.

The same deal holds true whenever I have seen the music of Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov or [insert the next guy] described as merely "tuneful", as if these composers were one-trick tune inventors like any run of the mill pop song writer from today, entirely ignoring the beyond extraordinary craft, intellect, use of colour, expressive power etc. etc. that is, to me at least, just obvious traits of their music -- these are of course alongside the melodic gifts.


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## DeepR

For some pieces I can see what some might find saccharine about it, it's just that a substantial part of Rachmaninoff's body of work isn't saccharine by any stretch of the imagination.


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## hpowders

Sometimes one can't blame the music. Old-fashioned performances of slow movements of Bach, Mozart and Haydn can sound saccharine due to anachronistic slides and excess vibrato. HIP takes care of those faults.


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## Guest

Skilmarilion said:


> I like that Liszt too, and do not find it "cheap".
> 
> The point I have tried to make is, I do not agree that this "saccharine" or whatever similar thing, is something that is objectively there in the music, i.e. whatever it is I'm supposed to be hearing, I don't hear.
> 
> The same deal holds true whenever I have seen the music of Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov or [insert the next guy] described as merely "tuneful", as if these composers were one-trick tune inventors like any run of the mill pop song writer from today, entirely ignoring the beyond extraordinary craft, intellect, use of colour, expressive power etc. etc. that is, to me at least, just obvious traits of their music -- these are of course alongside the melodic gifts.


Compositional skill and sugary aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, sir. You don't have to take it as an insult.


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## hpowders

I once heard an old-fashioned performance of Pachelbel's Canon with heavy vibrato laden strings. It was horrible!

THAT is what the classical haters think we crave and listen to. Too bad those folks will never hear wonderful classical performances.


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## Skilmarilion

arcaneholocaust said:


> Compositional skill and sugary aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, sir. *You don't have to take it as an insult.*


Unfortunately, it seems that I have to.

As far as I can see, the only sugar in this thread has come in the form of Elle MacPherson.


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## Mandryka

arcaneholocaust said:


> Compositional skill and sugary aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, sir. You don't have to take it as an insult.


I don't know about composition skills, but the problem with things like saccharin, kitsch, schmaltz, is that they make for entirely superficial music. Think of Feldman's Palais de Mari or Liszt's Benediction. Once you've listened to that sort of music once you don't need to listen again -- you know what it does, there's no point.

But I expect there's fine things in them for the techies to enjoy from the point of view of the craft of composition.


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> My mice will never deign to work for Disney studios - at least not until they can be cast in a proper _Gesamtkunstwerk._ _Die Micetersinger_, perhaps.


Then I assume _Un Ballo Mousechera_ and _Barbarat_ are out of the question.

So, continuing with the _Gedankenexperiment_, I won't even go into Mousenet or Mouzart.


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## bigshot

tdc said:


> I think people actually understand more about emotions now and how to deal with them in a healthy way


The fact that you are saying that emotions need to be "dealt with in a healthy way" proves my point. Emotions aren't something to be feared and dealt with and locked away. They are meant to be felt, expressed and shared. Modern society has made great technological leaps. But when it comes to the expression of emotions, we are living in an autistic age, not an artistic one. I work with artists, and I see the effect that our emotionally dry society has on creativity every day. The modern world doesn't embrace passion any more. It fears it. And artists have to regulate themselves to succeed within the tiny box they are allowed by society to work within.


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## bigshot

Mandryka said:


> I don't know about composition skills, but the problem with things like saccharin, kitsch, schmaltz, is that they make for entirely superficial music.


The thing is, saccharine, kitsch and schmaltz aren't any specific emotion, they represent *false* emotion. But a lot of people lump Tchaikovsky, Delibes and Offenbach into the same category, just because the emotion being expressed feels the same. But there is nothing superficial or false about Delibes, Tchaikovsky or Offenbach. It's like comparing the soundtrack to a poverty row tearjerker to Tristan und Isolde. Maybe the emotion is the same, but the sincerity and depth isn't at all the same.

"The chief enemy of art is good taste." =Pablo Picasso


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> Then I assume _Un Ballo Mousechera_ and _Barbarat_ are out of the question.
> 
> So, continuing with the _Gedankenexperiment_, I won't even go into Mousenet or Mouzart.


:lol: Set a tempting enough trap, and look how many you can catch!


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## Balthazar

Baroque music can be surprisingly sentimental. I nominate _Piangerò la sorte mia_ from Handel's Giulio Cesare. I love both the aria and the opera, but this fits the bill. Danielle de Niese is particularly emotive in this clip, making one think that Handel was the Andrew Lloyd Weber of the 1700s.


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## spradlig

Here's some "saccharine-flavored" music that I like:

Parts of Tchaikovsky's _Mozartiana_ orchestral suite (forgot which number the suite is), especially the long theme and variations.

The last movement of Ravel's _Ma Mere L'Oye_ (Mother Goose) suite (I'll attempt the French words, but not the accent marks), entitled _Le Jardin feerique (the fairy garden), especially the orchestrated version.

A waltz section of Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra (somewhere in the second half of the piece), with a violin solo playing very high notes.

The Last Spring by Edvard Grieg, originally for piano, but I think the orchestration really brings out the sweetness factor.

Several famous melodies from Rachmaninoff's more popular piano concertos and symphony. I won't elaborate, since I'm sure others have cited them.

Finally, Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto drips with saccharine. I love his music, but this isn't one of my favorite Tchaikovsky works.

I read the OP's post after some mention of Hitler or something (?) was removed. The version I read was innocuous._


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## PetrB

Dim7 said:


> Recommend me most nauseatingly, disgustingly sweet, testosterone-depriving,sentimental and saccharine classical music. OR just sweet and pretty classical music.


Some second thoughts after having already given one response:

1.) My actual sugar intake is already far too great to add a desire or need for the musical variety.

2.) Is there music which instead of being "testosterone-depriving" is actually "estrogen-inducing?"


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## MoonlightSonata

I think I might write an avant-garde work: _Trio for sugar cube, honey and oboe_.


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## Blancrocher

John Tavener's "The Protecting Veil."


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## PetrB

MoonlightSonata said:


> I think I might write an avant-garde work: _Trio for sugar cube, honey and oboe_.


Dentists around the world thank you in advance.


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## violadude

I didn't realize that Bigshot was TC's chief psychoanalyst in residence.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Sugar crystals are triboluminescent, you crush them and they glow.


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## science

MoonlightSonata said:


> I think I might write an avant-garde work: _Trio for sugar cube, honey and oboe_.


I'd eat that up.


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## SeptimalTritone

-nuked to oblivion-


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## science

I used to think I have a problem with sweetness, and maybe I do, but now I think I can enjoy music as sweet as can be, as long as it manages either to complicate the emotion with something else (particularly grief or some other kind of pain) or to seem self-aware (particularly in a self-mocking way, however subtle the humor). I don't mind unselfconscious rage or grief, but unselfconscious romance feels kitsch, fake, disgusting. The word "cloying" works so well here. 

I can't define or easily "unselfconscious" so I have to admit I don't understand what I'm feeling. 

Also, I think I don't enjoy overly predictable music. 

If the music combines unselfconscious sweetness with extreme predictability - as does a lot of pop music - I just can't take it. 

In other words, as always, I perfectly embody the prescribed tastes of the cultural elite! Let all be assured, it's just a coincidence.


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## Woodduck

arcaneholocaust said:


> Compositional skill and sugary aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, sir. You don't have to take it as an insult.


In fact, "sugary," like "saccharine," is nearly always _meant_ as an insult. No less an insult than calling certain types of contemporary music "ugly, soulless noise" - and we know how well _that_ sort of thing is received hereabouts.


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## Woodduck

science said:


> I used to think I have a problem with sweetness, and maybe I do, but now I think I can enjoy music as sweet as can be, as long as it manages either to complicate the emotion with something else (particularly grief or some other kind of pain) or to seem self-aware (particularly in a self-mocking way, however subtle the humor). I don't mind unselfconscious rage or grief, but unselfconscious romance feels kitsch, fake, disgusting. The word "cloying" works so well here.
> 
> I can't define or easily "unselfconscious" so I have to admit I don't understand what I'm feeling.
> 
> Also, I think I don't enjoy overly predictable music.
> 
> *If the music combines unselfconscious sweetness with extreme predictability - as does a lot of pop music - I just can't take it.
> *
> In other words, as always, I perfectly embody the prescribed tastes of the cultural elite! Let all be assured, it's just a coincidence.


In most cases, the only music I would call "saccharine" or "too sweet" is music that seems to me to have no other attributes of interest. But that could mean nothing more than a beautifully shaped melody. The tune of "Danny Boy" may be as sweet as anything in the universe, but it is one hell of a tune - one of the greatest ever composed, I think - and it speaks to me of a real depth and sincerity of emotion, without a trace of meretriciousness. I would say the same for some melodies of Stephen Foster, such as "Jeannie with the Light Brown Hair" or "Beautiful Dreamer": not profound or rich in meaning, but genuine and touching. This is not the case with a lot of popular music (of today or of long ago), which is formulaic and glib in its use of stock "expressive" tricks.

Of course, a lot of things can be performed in a sickeningly sweet manner, including some very great music.


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## Donata

MoonlightSonata said:


> Sometimes I have to make dentist appointments after Puccini overdoses.


They don't call his music ear candy for nothing!


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## PierreN

Richard Strauss's Schlagobers (Whipped Cream) Ballet op.70 is purposefully filled with quite nourishing syrup. I especially recommend the waltz suite from the ballet directed by Neene Jarvi with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra (Chandos). It also has been recorded by Kempe and Wakasugi. This unjustly neglected piece has an interesting history that you can look up on Wikipedia.


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## Guest

Thanks for bumping this subtle reminder that the same people who would call contemporary music "tuneless noise" are easily offended when their own music is merely called "sugary".....


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## Dim7

nathanb said:


> Thanks for bumping this subtle reminder that the same people who would call contemporary music "tuneless noise" are easily offended when their own music is merely called "sugary".....


We need names! Who calls contemporary music "tuneless noise" and is also offended by use of the word "sugary"?


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

I'm absolutely fine with saccharine music. There's enough doom and gloom in real life that if music has a lack of it, it really won't bother me that much.


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## DeepR

nathanb said:


> Thanks for bumping this subtle reminder that the same people who would call contemporary music "tuneless noise" are easily offended when their own music is merely called "sugary".....


A lot of the touchniness and frustration displayed by some of the modern/contemporary supporters seems to originate from those kind of statements ("tuneless noise"), but I wonder when was the last time on this forum when active members talked about contemporary music that way? 
In reality, those (active) members who are generally more critical towards contemporary music have expressed much more nuanced views, at least in the many discussions that I've read...


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## Mahlerian

DeepR said:


> A lot of the touchniness and frustration displayed by some of the modern/contemporary supporters seems to originate from those kind of statements ("tuneless noise")


My frustration is with the way discussions about contemporary music are diverted and sidetracked with nonsense about little-understood concepts such as atonality, and ignorance is prized over knowledge.



DeepR said:


> I wonder when was the last time on this forum when active members talked about contemporary music that way?


Yesterday.


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## Woodduck

nathanb:
_Thanks for bumping this subtle reminder that the same people who would call contemporary music "tuneless noise" are easily offended when their own music is merely called "sugary"....._

Dim7:
_We need names! Who calls contemporary music "tuneless noise" and is also offended by use of the word "sugary"?_ 


Don't bother asking for names. You're supposed to figure out on your own who "their own music" belongs to.

DeepR:
_A lot of the touchniness and frustration displayed by some of the modern/contemporary supporters seems to originate from those kind of statements ("tuneless noise"), but I wonder when was the last time on this forum when active members talked about contemporary music that way?
In reality, those (active) members who are generally more critical towards contemporary music have expressed much more nuanced views, at least in the many discussions that I've read._.. 

It isn't necessary to be strongly critical of "contemporary music," or of _any_ particular music, to become one of the above people who shall not be named, or to be accused as follows...

Mahlerian:
_My frustration is with the way discussions about contemporary music are diverted and sidetracked with nonsense about little-understood concepts such as atonality, and ignorance is prized over knowledge._

It would seem a reasonable and straightforward question to ask: Who prizes ignorance over knowledge?

But now _I'm_ the one asking for names! Silly me. Well, _someone_ should no doubt feel conscience-stricken. But in the absence of information we'll just have to trust the accused to fess up on their own. Maybe they'll break down and reveal their guilty secret selves with the next thread they nonsensically sidetrack by expressing views at variance with approved doctrine. Surely they cannot bear up forever under the strain of trying to defend concepts such as, say, "atonality" on - of all things! - a classical music forum.

Meanwhile we can expect the Don Quixotes who think that there is such a thing as "contemporary music" - which seems to cover about the last hundred years (with the exception of certain composers who just might be "their music" and not "our music") - and who believe that it is under relentless and deadly attack, to tilt with every faint squeak of the windmill.


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