# How to modulate from C major to B# major



## Bwv 1080

now you know, so move along now


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## mikeh375

Or just write out a G chord as an f double sharp chord and resolve in the usual perfect way.....


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## bwv543

I applaud both this thread and the username of its author.


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## Monsalvat

Reminds me of this: 












I think it's from Wyschnegradsky's Manual of Quarter-Tone Harmony, which I don't have access to at the moment. His pieces always sounded weird to my ears but these quarter-tone modulations are great.


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## bagpipers

Maybe I'm just stupid and endless condescension is a lot of why I left here for 9 years.

Your modulating to the same key,so your not modulating C major is the exact same a B# major.Sometimes unusual enharmonic's are used,I think Schubert had a song in C flat (B major) but that was voice and the idea the singer would the subtle bending of tone for expression and singers usually like flats better anyway.

The Beatles song "Strawberry Field" was recorded a micro-tone sharp from A major (literally non-enharmonic A# major) it was done by recording in A major and taking the tapes and bending the studio tapes to a sound one micro-tone sharp halfway between A and Bflat major.Is this the sort of thing your going for,then indicate micro-tones in the score but otherwise C and B# are the same


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## Philidor

bagpipers said:


> Your modulating to the same key,so your not modulating C major is the exact same a B# major.


Only on keyboard instruments. On strings, it is false.


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## bagpipers

Philidor said:


> Only on keyboard instruments. On strings, it is false.


That is what I said,if your talking micro-tones your talking microtones ,of coarse string get the tone between tones but that is not the point.Never heard of a string Quartet in D# major,if your doing something between D and Eflat than use micro-tone indications and no key signature.Or do what the Beatles did and manipulate the studio tapes.

I am a composer and have used stuff like E# or C double# for expression and other reasons.But I have never heard of B# as a key


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## Philidor

bagpipers said:


> Never heard of a string Quartet in D# major,if your doing something between D and Eflat than use micro-tone indications and no key signature.


The non-existence of string quartets D# major is no evidence for the equality of C major and B# major.

It is easy to calculate the frequencies of C and B# starting from any reference by using fifths. You'll immediately see that they are different.


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## bagpipers

Philidor said:


> The non-existence of string quartets D# major is no evidence for the equality of C major and B# major.
> 
> It is easy to calculate the frequencies of C and B# starting from any reference by using fifths. You'll immediately see that they are different.


Like I said unless your employing quarter-tones or using an occassional B# or C double# for expression there is no difference.Even chamber music for strings is tuned a an A440 orchestra.Brahms used that great E# in his F major piano trio opus 8 but the piece is not in E# sorry.


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## Philidor

bagpipers said:


> Like I said unless your employing quarter-tones or using an occassional B# or C double# for expression there is no difference.


The use or non-use of quarter-tones gives no evidence for C = B#. They are just not equal. And quarter-tones are not sufficient to show the difference of C and B#.

Ask your violin playing buddy whether C sharp is the same as D flat or not. He knows.

If you want to hear it - Harnoncourt wrote some pages in his second recording of Haydn's "Seasons" on the topic.


bagpipers said:


> Even chamber music for strings is tuned a an A440 orchestra.


That's wrong. Some chamber orchestras tune according to A = 442 Hz or more. But this isn't at all related to the question whether C = B# or not. The inequality holds in any reference, be it A = 440 Hz or more or less.


bagpipers said:


> Brahms used that great E# in his F major piano trio opus 8 but the piece is not in E# sorry.


I do not get your point ... what do you want to say? Afaik, Brahms' piano trio opus 8 is in B major. I found some E# in bar 22 of the first movement. But what does this mean for the question whether C = B# or not?


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## Monsalvat

For keyboardists like myself this is a purely theoretical exercise, since there is literally no difference between C sharp and D flat (or in this case, B sharp and C natural). But a) this is a music theory post, and this modulation does work in that theoretic sense and b) the difference between B sharp and C natural is not merely theoretical for strings. 

B sharp and C natural are separated by a Pythagorean comma, to be precise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma. That page states the comma is roughly equivalent to 23.46 cents! Hence the modulation; this is more than just a fancy C–G–C (I–V–I) perfect cadence.


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## bagpipers

Philidor said:


> The use or non-use of quarter-tones gives no evidence for C = B#. They are just not equal. And quarter-tones are not sufficient to show the difference of C and B#.
> 
> Ask your violin playing buddy whether C sharp is the same as D flat or not. He knows.
> 
> If you want to hear it - Harnoncourt wrote some pages in his second recording of Haydn's "Seasons" on the topic.
> 
> That's wrong. Some chamber orchestras tune according to A = 442 Hz or more. But this isn't at all related to the question whether C = B# or not. The inequality holds in any reference, be it A = 440 Hz or more or less.
> 
> I do not get your point ... what do you want to say? Afaik, Brahms' piano trio opus 8 is in B major. I found some E# in bar 22 of the first movement. But what does this mean for the question whether C = B# or not?


I know string players would play a A# different than a Bflat but that's not the same as a string quartet in A# major although A# minor is ineficient but legit.

I know some orchestra's slightly differ from A440 I think Boston does A335 those differences are trivial I think you'd have to get to A428 to get A flat.

I was wrong was thinking Brahms Quintet opus 88 in F major sorry


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## bagpipers

Monsalvat said:


> B sharp and C natural are separated by a Pythagorean comma, to be precise.


In some circumstances but not all ,sometimes but not always!


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## bagpipers

I have been on both sides,I once entered composition competition and was assigned the cello to compose on.I used a few C double #'s and stuff and they didn't get the point.


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