# Vibrato and Der Ring



## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Well, this could actually be applied to most opera, not just limited to Der Ring. Anyway, I am still in the discovery mode of The Ring - I think it is an absolute work of unprecedented beauty, originality, genius, etc etc. The one aspect (if I had to name one) that is a slight hindrance to me is the excessive use of vibrato at points. I am a string teacher/performer and have two degrees in music so I am completely aware of the beauty and importance of vibrato. However, I have to be honest - there are some moments in The Ring when I am muttering to myself "WTF...?! Really??!!". It just seems excessive and overboard to me, and I have a huge tolerance to all things musical (i.e. dissonance, atonality). It seems like they wander SO FAR from the center of pitch that it seems difficult to discern the pitch to a certain extent. I am getting more used to it, and I don't let it ruin the experience of this amazing work of art, but its where I am currently.

Now, this brings me to my second point: I am taking my wife to see Das Rheingold performed by the NYP in June at David Geffen Hall (I hate that name, I still call it Avery Fisher in my head). She is a Police, Sting, Beatles, Van Morrison, Joni Mitchell, etc fan. You see where this is going. If _I'm_ having a slightly rough time at points with the vibrato, I think she might divorce me after sitting through 2.5 hours of it. She has sat through Mahler 2 and quite enjoyed that, so its not that she can't enjoy classical music. I just thought it would be nice to expand her musical horizons and see this performed, so I asked her if she wanted to have a date, and she accepted 

So, how do "we" go about overcoming our "fear" and "tolerance" of the extreme vibrato in The Ring? I am starting to come around before she will, but I just don't want this style of singing to ruin the entire experience for her. I usually don't need musical suggestions on most matters, but if you have any insight that I am either missing or overlooking, I would be very grateful. Cheers in advance!

Viva Der Ring!

Frank


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm going to guess that you're listening to Boulez's recording with Gwyneth Jones.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

howlingfantods said:


> I'm going to guess that you're listening to Boulez's recording with Gwyneth Jones.


No, actually both Levine (1990) and Janowski.....but I've Spotified Many other versions including Solti, von Karajan, Barenboim. Is Boulez the biggest culprit with excessive vibrato? Boulez is my favorite conductor, period (fwiw).


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure vibrato isn't specified in Wagner's score, so you're talking about performers. Unless, I suppose, you argue that the kind of large voices Wagner requires somehow leads to forcing and a wider vibrato. But I'll leave that one to the better informed.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

chalkpie said:


> No, actually both Levine (1990) and Janowski.....but I've Spotified Many other versions including Solti, von Karajan, Barenboim. Is Boulez the biggest culprit with excessive vibrato? Boulez is my favorite conductor, period (fwiw).


no, sorry, I was just making a snarky joke about Gwyneth Jones.

As amfortas says, vibrato isn't part of the score, and there's no particular reason you should encounter more vibrato in Wagner recordings than any other opera recordings. Are there particular performers you find most annoying when you're listening to the Levine or Janowski? You might try Birgit Nilsson's recordings; she sings with a very tight, focused sound.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you listen much to opera, you'll find that singers differ considerably in their vibrato. All operatic voices have vibrato and would sound rather like fire sirens without it; it gives life to the vocal tone and is largely responsible for the "thrill" a great voice can create. But if it's particularly distracting it may be a consequence of the singer putting too much pressure on the voice, forcing his or her voice to sound bigger than it naturally wants to, a flaw all too prevalent in singers who try to stand up to the Wagnerian orchestra. You may notice that in most singers the vibrato is less prominent when they sing softly - but then many singers who have forced their voices lack the control to sing softly! The best singers generally have a cleanly focused tone and rarely make us think about their vibratos. Of course if you've never listened to opera at all, even the natural vibrato all singers have may come as a surprise, but it shouldn't be an unpleasant surprise.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

chalkpie said:


> Well, this could actually be applied to most opera, not just limited to Der Ring. Anyway, I am still in the discovery mode of The Ring - I think it is an absolute work of unprecedented beauty, originality, genius, etc etc. The one aspect (if I had to name one) that is a slight hindrance to me is the excessive use of vibrato at points. I am a string teacher/performer and have two degrees in music so I am completely aware of the beauty and importance of vibrato. However, I have to be honest - there are some moments in The Ring when I am muttering to myself "WTF...?! Really??!!". It just seems excessive and overboard to me, and I have a huge tolerance to all things musical (i.e. dissonance, atonality). It seems like they wander SO FAR from the center of pitch that it seems difficult to discern the pitch to a certain extent. I am getting more used to it, and I don't let it ruin the experience of this amazing work of art, but its where I am currently.
> 
> Now, this brings me to my second point: I am taking my wife to see Das Rheingold performed by the NYP in June at David Geffen Hall (I hate that name, I still call it Avery Fisher in my head). She is a Police, Sting, Beatles, Van Morrison, Joni Mitchell, etc fan. You see where this is going. If _I'm_ having a slightly rough time at points with the vibrato, I think she might divorce me after sitting through 2.5 hours of it. She has sat through Mahler 2 and quite enjoyed that, so its not that she can't enjoy classical music. I just thought it would be nice to expand her musical horizons and see this performed, so I asked her if she wanted to have a date, and she accepted
> 
> ...


Heaven help you if you ever hear the execrable Lance "the yodeller" Ryan. A vibrato so wide that he sounds like he is singing three different notes at one time.


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

As others have said, vibrato is not specified in the score anywhere. In fact, too much vibrato would compromise the effect Wagner wants to achieve: a vocal delivery that requires an intensity of sound with careful attention to the enunciation of words. So, the amount of vibrato you hear is strictly a result of the singer's ability. Could be that you're a bit sensitive to too much vibrato - I'm a bit that way myself.

Consider Brünnhilde's line in the last scene from Walküre: "Der diese Liebe mir ins Herz gehaucht…" It's a killer line because the soprano must hold the note _e _on "Liebe", a note that usually sits right in her passaggio. Too much vibrato here will ruin that line. Alas, given the capability of most of today's singers, it usually does.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> All operatic voices have vibrato and would sound rather like fire sirens without it.


A sad case in point: the great Friedrich Schorr in recordings toward the end of his career. The high notes lack vibrato, and sound like yelling on pitch.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> A sad case in point: the great Friedrich Schorr in recordings toward the end of his career. The high notes lack vibrato, and sound like yelling on pitch.


Interesting that many singers approaching the end sometimes develop a big, slow, throbbing wobble, while others, like Schorr, can only produce the notes with no vibrato at all. I have the somewhat vague impression that the former is more common now. It has actually been proven - I forget where I read about the study - that opera singers of the late 20th century have, on average, slower, more prominent vibratos than their predecessors trained in 19th-century methods of vocal pedagogy. Everyone's vibrato slows down in time, as the vocal muscles inevitably lose tone, but the great singers on early recordings - Patti, Battistini, Nordica, Caruso, Sembrich, Tetrazzini, Galli-Curci, Schumann-Heink, the Lehmanns, Flagstad, Melchior, Schorr, et al. - have compact tone with quick vibratos showing very little pitch variation, and this throughout their ranges and even late in their careers (we can in fact hear many of them only in their later years).

Modern operagoers have learned to accept big vibratos as standard. They aren't, and they have not been acceptable to listeners in every era.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

This is one relatively modern operagoer who has never learned to accept big vibratos. Hate it. My favourite voice is that of Emma Kirkby who specialises in the early music repertoire. Virtually vibratoless but just exquisite.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> This is one relatively modern operagoer who has never learned to accept big vibratos. Hate it. My favourite voice is that of Emma Kirkby who specialises in the early music repertoire. Virtually vibratoless but just exquisite.


Count me as one who listens to a lot of early music performances (Monteverdi and Purcell are staples for me since I was in my teens), and sometimes it does take some adjustment on my part when listening to singing in later repertoire. But so long as I can keep the period in mind, it's something I can mostly handle, just so long as the musical commitment is there.

Just last night I was transferring some old Purcell LPs in my collection from the 60s and 70s, and noticed that one of the singers in these Mackerras and Gardiner disks was none other than the great baritone Thomas Allen, obviously in his younger years.. I'm more used to seeing his name with the Met or Covent Garden, but there he was, with perhaps a little more dramatic flair than is the case with much of this repertoire (of course, singing in English), but I actually noticed that his vibrato didn't seem out of place with the performances.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The amount of vibrato favored in "classical" singing has apparently varied throughout history. We can find complaints about singers with excessive vibrato in all periods, and some believe that singers before the Romantic era sang with no vibrato at all. I think this is unlikely to impossible, since vibrato is a natural, involuntary secondary pulsation of the vocal chords in a well-trained, well-functioning voice, spontaneously present and eliminated only by conscious choice. In the greatest singers it just seems an integral part of the tone, giving it life and sparkle. Since we find vibrato in all operatic voices since the dawn of recording, it makes no sense to assume that the singers of Handel's or Beethoven's time suppressed it completely. I would guess that contemporary taste simply favored voices in which the vibrato was subtle and not felt to be intrusive. It's hard to imagine, say, "Abscheulicher!" sung with a hooty, completely unvibrant tone.

Speaking of Purcell, one of my favorite singers of Baroque music is Janet Baker, who has just the kind of subtle vibrato that lends quality to her tone and never intrudes on the purity of the musical line.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> . You may notice that in most singers the vibrato is less prominent when they sing softly -


Yes! And I usually LOVE those moments. And as soon as the dynamics and energy start to rise, so does the width and intensity of the vibrato.

Thanks for the responses BTW everybody. Its an interesting topic, and I am always curious to hear how different listeners react to operatic vibrato in general.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

chalkpie said:


> Yes! And I usually LOVE those moments. And as soon as the dynamics and energy start to rise, so does the width and intensity of the vibrato.
> 
> Thanks for the responses BTW everybody. Its an interesting topic, and I am always curious to hear how different listeners react to operatic vibrato in general.


No vibrato problem here, regardless of range, dynamics or energy level!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> I'm going to guess that you're listening to Boulez's recording with Gwyneth Jones.


... not so much vibrato as glissando.

Not that I mind. I love "our Gwyn".


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> My favourite voice is that of Emma Kirkby who specialises in the early music repertoire. Virtually vibratoless but just exquisite.


Much as I admire Dame Emma, I find her voice rather expressionless at times. As a performer she is wonderful, but I feel that I really need the visuals. Check out a YouTube video of her singing, say, _Dido's Lament_, and it's great... but then listen to the equivalent audio recording, or just close your eyes, and it's not quite so impressive.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I don't mind heavy vibrato. My line is somewhere between Gwyneth Jone's Boulez Brunnhilde and her later Isolde.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I don't mind heavy vibrato. My line is somewhere between Gwyneth Jone's Boulez Brunnhilde and her later Isolde.


We can live with that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Much as I admire Dame Emma, I find her voice rather expressionless at times. As a performer she is wonderful, but I feel that I really need the visuals. Check out a YouTube video of her singing, say, _Dido's Lament_, and it's great... but then listen to the equivalent audio recording, or just close your eyes, and it's not quite so impressive.


Not at all. Different sort of expression for mainly early music.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Can anyone post a vid of Dame Gwyneth at her wobbling worst? I love her Boulez Brunnhilde. Def my fave Brunnhilde on video, but I haven't listened to much from later in her career. Thanks in advance!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Gwyneth Jones is a great actress with a powerful instrument. I remember her early recordings from the 1960s, before the vibrato started to widen (fine work in Mendelssohn's _Elijah_ and Sibelius's _Luonnotar_, among other things). By 1970 (her Kundry in Boulez's Bayreuth _Parsifal_) she was in some vocal trouble. Somehow she powered through and had a great career, but the big vibrato (dare I say wobble) has always annoyed me. I can mostly overlook it if I'm watching her. On recordings, no.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

A German coach I'm friends with told me Nilsson, Gwyneth, & Eva Marton made the biggest soprano sounds he ever heard. I have a serious fascination with big voices if you hadn't noticed


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bonetan said:


> Can anyone post a vid of Dame Gwyneth at her wobbling worst? I love her Boulez Brunnhilde. Def my fave Brunnhilde on video, but I haven't listened to much from later in her career. Thanks in advance!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Thanks Couchie! I see what you mean, plus she's got the habit of scooping into notes from underneath. Nothing to emulate...still a glorious sound at times though lol


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Thanks Couchie! I see what you mean, plus she's got the habit of scooping into notes from underneath. Nothing to emulate...still a glorious sound at times though lol


And she was a great actress too


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> No vibrato problem here, regardless of range, dynamics or energy level!


Wow! This is the real deal....such a unique voice and the vibrato is so controlled and embellishes his (already) exquisite voice. So was/is he regarded as one of the greatest Wagner Siegmund's ever?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

chalkpie said:


> Wow! This is the real deal....such a unique voice and the vibrato is so controlled and embellishes his (already) exquisite voice. So was/is he regarded as one of the greatest Wagner Siegmund's ever?


Greatest Wagnerian tenor ever--the Babe Ruth of tenors (both men lived in the same period, enjoyed the peak of their fame in New York, and were literally larger-than-life figures).

The real question is, for which Wagnerian tenor role was Melchior *not* the greatest? (Walther in _Die Meistersinger_ comes to mind).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Greatest Wagnerian tenor ever--the Babe Ruth of tenors (both men lived in the same period, enjoyed the peak of their fame in New York, and were literally larger-than-life figures).
> 
> The real question is, *for which Wagnerian tenor role was Melchior *not* the greatest? (Walther in Die Meistersinger comes to mind).*


Melchior avoided Walther, saying it kept him too high too much of the time. He did often sing the "prize song," though, and is the Walther in the famous recording of _Meistersinger_ excerpts with Friedrich Schorr; he participates in the most beautiful recording ever made of the quintet, led by the exquisite Elisabeth Schumann (who also avoided singing _Meistersinger_ in the house, considering Eva too heavy for her voice).

Melchior began his career as a baritone in 1913 and sang baritone and bass roles for a few years. According to Wiki, "one night, while on tour, Melchior helped an ailing soprano performing in Il trovatore by singing a high C in the Act IV Leonora-di Luna duet. The Azucena of that performance, the American contralto Mme Charles Cahier, was impressed by the tone she had heard and gave her young colleague sound advice: he was no baritone, but a tenor 'with the lid on.' She even wrote to the Royal Opera pleading that Melchior be given a sabbatical and a stipend to restudy his voice."

The one other Wagner tenor part I find him not perfectly suited to is Lohengrin, which I think requires a more ethereal quality.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


>


Ugh! Back to Leider, Flagstad and Nilsson.

I can never pass up a chance to post my favorite "Liebestod": Frida Leider's, recorded live at the Met in 1933. Leider's vibrato had a unique shimmer on high notes that must have been quite exciting heard live. I don't know whether Melchior was her Tristan on that occasion, but if he was it must have been one hell of a night at the opera. (P.S. Just reading the comments on YouTube. Someone says he was.)






Here are Leider and Melchior together:






Elisabeth Schwarzkopf said that that was one of her favorite recordings.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I'm probably gauche, but I like a big throbbing vibrato in most Romantic music. Go for it, kids!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

All I know is when Pavarotti belted out a high C with vibrato galore, it was one of the most thrilling sounds I have ever heard.

I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> I'm probably gauche, but I like a big throbbing vibrato in most Romantic music. Go for it, kids!


I don't see how why one preference for vibrato would be more or less tasteful than another. In my case, my favorite voices qua voices are those with that old fashioned, unusually tight rapid vibrato like Schwarzkopf, Bjorling, Janowitz and Gheorghiu, but I don't think that's objectively better or more tasteful or anything. I just like how they sound.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> The one other Wagner tenor part I find him not perfectly suited to is Lohengrin, which I think requires a more ethereal quality.


Apparently, he was never at his best in the part. In his exhaustive study of Met radio broadcasts, _Saturday Afternoons at the Old Met_, Paul Jackson says this 1943 recording "may be as close as we come" to hearing Melchior perform a Lohengrin "worthy of himself."


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Not at all. Different sort of expression for mainly early music.


I'm not so sure, David. I really like vibrato-less singing, or instrumental playing for that matter, but not at the expense of the drama. Purcell, Handel _et al_ were instinctively dramatic composers, and I'm sure they would have appreciated the odd smidgeon of emotion being conveyed by the voice wherever appropriate.

By the way, I love Emma Kirkby's recordings of Dowland, Byrd and Hildegard. It's from the baroque onward that I like to hear a bit more "oomph".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I don't see how why one preference for vibrato would be more or less tasteful than another. In my case, my favorite voices qua voices are those with that old fashioned, unusually tight rapid vibrato like Schwarzkopf, Bjorling, Janowitz and Gheorghiu, but I don't think that's objectively better or more tasteful or anything. I just like how they sound.


There's a reason you prefer those clean, quick vibratos. They are apt to be an indicator of a well-functioning voice. Even given the expected, natural differences in voices, a slow, wide, throbbing vibrato (at its extreme we call it a "wobble") is a sign of vocal muscles which may lack flexibility (as in many beginning vocal students or elderly singers), are inadequately supported by the breath, or have become stiff and unresponsive from oversinging or abuse. A voice with a natural, regular, quick vibrato is a well-toned, well-trained voice, and that fact will also be apparent in a sense of ease (lack of strain) the singer conveys, as well as in consistency of tone, flexibility, and control of dynamics. These vocal virtues develop in mutual reinforcement and are all manifestations of correct and thorough schooling.

Speaking as a former singer, I can say that my own dislike of "big" vibratos is not just an abstract aesthetic preference, but arises from an empathic feel for what's happening in a singer's throat. And, as many people - vocally aware or not - have remarked, it's just more musically satisfactory to hear pitches struck cleanly and purely.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I'm not so sure, David. I really like vibrato-less singing, or instrumental playing for that matter, but not at the expense of the drama. Purcell, Handel _et al_ were instinctively dramatic composers, and I'm sure they would have appreciated the odd smidgeon of emotion being conveyed by the voice wherever appropriate.
> 
> By the way, I love Emma Kirkby's recordings of Dowland, Byrd and Hildegard. It's from the baroque onward that I like to hear a bit more "oomph".


I certainly don't think Emma's way of singing is the only one. But it has it's own drama. Hear her singing the 'Refiner's Fire' aria from Messiah or Arne's 'Rise Glory Rise' to see.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I certainly don't think Emma's way of singing is the only one. But it has it's own drama. Hear her singing the 'Refiner's Fire' aria from Messiah or Arne's 'Rise Glory Rise' to see.


Thanks for the pointers, David. I'll seek them out.


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