# Good or Great Operas that you don't particularly care for............................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Off the top of my head, for me Otello, Carmen, La Boheme for a start.
I really don't care for these at all, even though the beginning arias in La Boheme are very beautiful.

You folks have any like that?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

plenty. Tosca, Otello, Falstaff, Aida, Don Carlo. All Wagner is impenetrable at this point.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Othello ( I find jealousy so unattractive) and Falstaff ( it might be a good theater piece but I have no desire to listen to it on the radio). I also am not drawn to the later Strauss operas Capriccio, Arabella and Der Rosenkavalier except for excerpts such as the Presentation of the Rose as I am so drawn to the perverse operas Salome and Elektra and the magical one Die Frau. Elektra is my favorite opera.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

deggial said:


> plenty. Tosca, Otello, Falstaff, Aida, Don Carlo. All Wagner is impenetrable at this point.


I'm not big on Aida either.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Any opera by Richard Strauss or by Britten, although I like E. Schwarzkopf's version of Strauss's Four Last Songs. The only baroque and renaissance operas I can stomach are Giulio Cesare and L' Incoronazione di Poppea, plus sections from Il Retorno d'Ulisse in Patria.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Rosenkavalier, Carmen, Don G, Entfuhrung, Nozze di Fig, La Boheme, Madama B, Aida, Nabucco, all Wagner except Parsifal, Cenerentola, Don Pasquale - that's all from the OperaBase top 50. Of the top 50 I would say I appreciate almost exactly half and am as yet unexposed to another 10%. I was thinking last night that Puccini - no, I won't say it. But the odd thing is that if you've seen the Met's versions, in the house I mean, they're just spectacular. I hate Madama B but if it's on at the Met I'm going. I don't enjoy La Boheme unless it's on at the Met. I don't know how they do it but it's something.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Cosi fan tutte. I've never been able to get past the obnoxiousness of the story.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

lol cosi is the GREATEST opera ever!!! Ah well - different strokes, I guess... :lol:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> I don't know how they do it but it's something.


some operas are better seen than just heard. What I have seen of the Valencia Ring did actually keep my attention but when I sat down to just listen - forget about it. I agree about Don Pasquale. I find it so meh compared to Elisir. I don't dislike La Boheme, but I will always make a point to see it instead of just listening to it. Strangely enough I am not particularly fussy about who's in it. I have not listened to Madame B yet out of sheer lack of interest for the subject.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> ...Strangely enough I am not particularly fussy about who's in it.....


That's part of the genius of Puccini, I think - if that phrase won't offend any real geniuses in the room - it really doesn't matter who sings it. It's like all of Puccini's music was written for comprimarios. Well, except for Tosca and Turandot. For those I think it matters.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

you might be onto something


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I like Puccini but I have never liked _Turandot_. It just always strikes me as patronisingly oriental and exotic, something to titillate the audience with the weirdness of funny foreigners. Quite apart from any dubious plotting it is the sprinkling of faux-Chinese flavoured music that annoys me much more so than _Madame Butterfly_ or _The Mikado_.

_Die Meistersinger_ is another that I don't like, and again it isn't so much about the sometimes controversial content its just it drags on and does nothing interesting for me. I don't have a problem with long-winded, I could probably sit through a ring marathon without dying or losing interest but _Die Meistersinger_ never seems to engage.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

_Die Meistersinger_ is another that I don't like, and again it isn't so much about the sometimes controversial content its just it drags on and does nothing interesting for me. I don't have a problem with long-winded, I could probably sit through a ring marathon without dying or losing interest but _Die Meistersinger_ never seems to engage.[/QUOTE]

Meistersinger would be interesting to see in a very good live production, but unlike the rest of Wagner I don't find it interesting to listen to without seeing.
Turandot for me is a showcase for really great singers, but they need to be first rate. Nilsson and Corelli... can you even imagine! Seattle even recently did a spectacular production with marvelous, huge voiced leads:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I've got six of Mozart's mature operas and have to say that despite containing some sublime music CFT is the one I've never really taken to - I just can't empathise with any of the characters and the plot is stretched way too thinly.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

The only opera I've seen that I had trouble sitting through is Die Fledermaus. I'm sure it's great if you like that sort of thing.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Once in a long while I'll pull out my recordings of _Zauberflote_ or _Cosi fan Tutte_ but in general I've never really felt an overwhelming love for Mozart's operatic *music*.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I never really cared for Madama Butterfly. Fidelio is not my cup of tea. And there's still so much that I'm not familiar with.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

A few people have mentioned not liking _Otello_ and _Falstaff_. _Otello_ happens to be one of my favorites by Verdi and, though I like _Falstaff_, I like _Otello_ better. Somehow, I find it more musically accessible than _Falstaff_.

I was going to say I don't care for _Carmen_, but that's not really true. I like _Carmen_ when it's closer to a musical -- i.e. presented with the spoken dialogue -- than to a "grand opera." I have the 1977/1978 Claudio Abbado recording with Teresa Berganza -- that, to me, is the ideal way to do _Carmen_.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Any opera by Puccini. Lovely music but boring stories.
For me most overrated; Gounod's 'Faust'. Yawn, everytime i see(rarely)or hear(very seldom).


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

TrevBus said:


> Any opera by Puccini. Lovely music but boring stories.
> For me most overrated; Gounod's 'Faust'. Yawn, everytime i see(rarely)or hear(very seldom).


I like FAUST (and Valentin's aria is a special favorite of mine) but agree that it can seem rather long and drawn-out.

And how could I have forgotten? I can't stand AMAHL AND THE NIGHT VISITORS. It's just too saccharine.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Rosenkavalier, Carmen, Don G, Entfuhrung, Nozze di Fig, La Boheme, Madama B, Aida, Nabucco, all Wagner except Parsifal, Cenerentola, Don Pasquale - that's all from the OperaBase top 50. *Of the top 50 I would say I appreciate almost exactly half *and am as yet unexposed to another 10%. I was thinking last night that Puccini - no, I won't say it. But the odd thing is that if you've seen the Met's versions, in the house I mean, they're just spectacular. I hate Madama B but if it's on at the Met I'm going. I don't enjoy La Boheme unless it's on at the Met. I don't know how they do it but it's something.


Are you sure you are in the right forum? :lol:
Sometimes your taste can change over time, as time goes on I appreciate operas now that initially didn't appeal to me strongly

I am looking at top 50 now and none of them are unappealing to me I enjoy them all, the ones I listen to less often are the Wagner works because the singing style is so straight forward and slowly developed compared to individual flair of Bel Canto or baroque da capo styles......I want to hear each singers style and character


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Are you sure you are in the right forum? :lol:
> Sometimes your taste can change over time, as time goes on I appreciate operas now that initially didn't appeal to me strongly
> 
> I am looking at top 50 now and none of them are unappealing to me I enjoy them all, the ones I listen to less often are the Wagner works because *the singing style is so straight forward and slowly developed *compared to individual flair of Bel Canto or baroque da capo styles......I want to hear each singers style and character


Ahhhhh,
But the music............


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Mefistofele - sounds a bit too much like beats and rhythms in pop music for me. Listen to some of the music of the title role, and you'll see what I mean.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm only an "excerpts" fan from operas like Verdi's Don Carlo (the duet between Carlo and Rodrigo and King Phillip's aria are very good), La Forza Del Destino (Leonora's aria "Pace, Pace" and the two duets for Alvaro and Carlo are super-moments), and Un Ballo In Maschera (the tenor aria "Ma S'e Me Forza Perdeti" is quite decent). Maybe I'll find a new perspective on these operas if I listened a bit more closely.

Boccanegra seems like a bit too much to take, even for a serious opera lover like myself. Crazy?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I tend to get very bored watching static operas. *Werther* comes to mind. *Pelleas and Melisande* is another. The music is lovely, but oddly, I'd rather listen to them than watch them. I also have a difficult time with operas that use period costumes that restrict movement - when the characters end up looking like dolls instead of people. A lot of bel canto and Verdi operas seem to lean in this direction.

As you know, when I _watch_ something, I want it to have visual appeal. When I just listen, I can focus on the music.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Boccanegra seems like a bit too much to take, even for a serious opera lover like myself. Crazy?


Ah - yes. Boccanegra is the heart of Verdi. Although there may be only one or two others who agree with me on that.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> I also have a difficult time with operas that use period costumes that restrict movement - when the characters end up looking like dolls instead of people. A lot of bel canto and Verdi operas seem to lean in this direction.


regie to the rescue! but I know what you mean, which is why regie is god's gift to opera on occasion. It's boring to watch when they're overdressed and just stand there and sing. I'm an unabashed fan of opera athleticism, vocal and physical.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

La Boheme is a bore for me...as is Gianni Schicchi....(though I love Suor Angelica and Il Tabarro from 'Il Trittico.')

And whilst I'm about it 'O mio babbino caro'.....is another pain in the wot-nots, though it is* so *popular with everyone else. I'm just a surly, awkward so and so, probably!.....


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## mchriste (Aug 16, 2013)

I have a "problem" with La Bohème as well. The music is almost _too_ beautiful for me. Like Puccini is trying way too hard. Makes me think of a mushy soap opera more than anything else... I wonder whether Puccini generally appeals much more to women than to men?


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

This is a curmudgeonly thread which needs resuscitating! I'll raise some hackles by saying:

a) All of Verdi is incredibly boring - I've even played them and can only remember a handful of excerpts - Otello probably the best of a bad bunch
b) don't get me started on Bellini and the associated Italians. Do people still play Meyerbeer? They shouldn't. Although, oddly, I have a soft spot for Faust 
c) The Lorenzo da Ponte operas (Cosi, Don G and Figaro) are less interesting to me than Idomeneo, Seraglio, Magic Flute and even Tito


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> I've got six of Mozart's mature operas and have to say that despite containing some sublime music CFT is the one I've never really taken to - I just can't empathise with any of the characters and the plot is stretched way too thinly.


it's one of them operas that I prefer listening to instead of watching. It's actually very hard - imo - to pull off properly. The best results are yielded when the production goes all zany. You can't take anything or anyone seriously (especially Don Alfonso or Fiordiligi) without it falling flat. And it's crucial to have a proper Despina.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ so, I've been a bit obsessed with Cosi in the past couple of days... almost immediately after I posted the above more thoughts about it sprang up, certainly given that I'm watching/listening to it right now. Now how about if the whole thing is actually a kinky game: the girls want to shag each other's bf from the getgo (you know the part where they talk about playing a prank on their bfs) and the men have either been tipped off or caught on to it (because they are soooo perceptive to their girls' desires - maybe Don Alfonso is the go-between for the girls) and have found a way to give them the possibility of just that (and, you know, they probably fancy the idea themselves)? eh, what about that? this occurred to me after seeing the men with their mustaches and Dr. Despina on stage at once - it's like flimsy disguise extravaganza and the girls don't see it. I mean, how dumb can you be? unless you're actually not and you're just playing coy for extra sauciness.

all right, enough on this for now


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dgee said:


> This is a curmudgeonly thread which needs resuscitating! I'll raise some hackles by saying:
> 
> a) All of Verdi is incredibly boring - I've even played them and can only remember a handful of excerpts - Otello probably the best of a bad bunch
> b) don't get me started on Bellini and the associated Italians. Do people still play Meyerbeer? They shouldn't. Although, oddly, I have a soft spot for Faust
> c) The Lorenzo da Ponte operas (Cosi, Don G and Figaro) are less interesting to me than Idomeneo, Seraglio, Magic Flute and even Tito


The best thing for you to do is ignore opera.
I could have sworn that I posted here already.
I can't take Puccini apart from Boheme and La Rondiine which I think is marvellous.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> That's part of the genius of Puccini, I think - if that phrase won't offend any real geniuses in the room - it really doesn't matter who sings it. It's like all of Puccini's music was written for comprimarios. Well, except for Tosca and Turandot. For those I think it matters.


Puccini was, all else put aside as to greatness, a master craftsman with a keen eye on the practicality of the works being readily performed, without having to wait for the top world class virtuosi to make a production happen. Ditto the libretti, down to the stage settings and mechanics.

A very canny pragmatist, was Signor Puccini....


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Puccini was, all else put aside as to greatness, a master craftsman with a keen eye on the practicality of the works being readily performed, without having to wait for the top world class virtuosi to make a production happen. Ditto the libretti, down to the stage settings and mechanics.
> 
> A very canny pragmatist, was Signor Puccini....


I remember something the tenor Ramon Vargas said once in an OPERA NEWS interview. He said that the music of Puccini and other verismo composers is so vivid and vividly orchestrated that it "engages your voice"; in other words, the singer doesn't have to try very hard to "bring it to life." By contrast, bel canto won't just "play itself" but relies on the singer's imagination to animate it.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Vesteralen said:


> I tend to get very bored watching static operas. *Werther* comes to mind.


_Werther_ is one of the greatest operas ever, in my opinion. It might not "move" much in terms of action, but it certainly stirs the emotions and, IMHO, it is perfectly paced from beginning to end. Glad you appreciate the music, though, as it is very beautiful.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> _Werther_ is one of the greatest operas ever, in my opinion. It might not "move" much in terms of action, but it certainly stirs the emotions and, IMHO, it is perfectly paced from beginning to end. Glad you appreciate the music, though, as it is very beautiful.


Love this opera, esp. w/Alfredo Kraus in the title role. IMO, Kraus had a command of this character like no other.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

moody said:


> The best thing for you to do is ignore opera.
> I could have sworn that I posted here already.
> I can't take Puccini apart from Boheme and La Rondiine which I think is marvellous.


That's interesting - because I probably listen to more opera than anything else! Luckily there are operas other than Verdi, no?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

dgee said:


> Luckily there are operas other than Verdi, no?


only one: Parsifal  you're doomed!


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> That's part of the genius of Puccini, I think - if that phrase won't offend any real geniuses in the room - it really doesn't matter who sings it. It's like all of Puccini's music was written for comprimarios. Well, except for Tosca and Turandot. For those I think it matters.


Especially Turandot! That can be a nasty pill for an unprepared tenor or soprano. That being said, it was probably the last truly great opera (Berg and Glass excepted, I'm talking about traditional opera).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> That's part of the genius of Puccini, I think - if that phrase won't offend any real geniuses in the room - it really doesn't matter who sings it. It's like all of Puccini's music was written for comprimarios. Well, except for Tosca and Turandot. For those I think it matters.


Sorry, but I cannot disagree more. It REALLY matters who is singing Scarpia, Cavaradossi, Suor Angelica, Butterfly, Pinkerton, Minnie, Jack Rance, Dick Johnson, Manon Lescaut, Magda, Mimi and Rodolfo.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

deggial said:


> ^ so, I've been a bit obsessed with Cosi in the past couple of days... almost immediately after I posted the above more thoughts about it sprang up, certainly given that I'm watching/listening to it right now. Now how about if the whole thing is actually a kinky game: the girls want to shag each other's bf from the getgo (you know the part where they talk about playing a prank on their bfs) and the men have either been tipped off or caught on to it (because they are soooo perceptive to their girls' desires - maybe Don Alfonso is the go-between for the girls) and have found a way to give them the possibility of just that (and, you know, they probably fancy the idea themselves)? eh, what about that? this occurred to me after seeing the men with their mustaches and Dr. Despina on stage at once - it's like flimsy disguise extravaganza and the girls don't see it. I mean, how dumb can you be? unless you're actually not and you're just playing coy for extra sauciness.
> 
> all right, enough on this for now


I'm going to a concert performance of Cosi this Wednessday ! It surely is Mozart's naughtiest opera. During the more prude centuries that followed the 18th the subject was found a little too much...


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

deggial said:


> it's one of them operas that I prefer listening to instead of watching. It's actually very hard - imo - to pull off properly. The best results are yielded when the production goes all zany. You can't take anything or anyone seriously (especially Don Alfonso or Fiordiligi) without it falling flat. And it's crucial to have a proper Despina.


Well, don't forget it's a comedy ! It should not be taken too seriously. It's fun ! This together with brilliant music of course.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't forget but others do. I've seen it performed with serious faces.

18th century is such a refreshing time compared with the po-faced and straight laced 19th.


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