# What did Beethoven consider to be his greatest work?



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Did he make any mention of this? 

Thanks! :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

According to him it was the Missa Solemnis


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

DavidA said:


> According to him it was the Missa Solemnis


Really? Did he say why?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Strangely, UK Radio 3 told us that it was Missa Solemnis this morning. But they didn't say why or, indeed, when he said it. It is a great work but I'm not sure I agree with him.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I don't know if this helps, but according to "classical Notes": http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/missa.html "Clearly, the Missa Solemnis meant a lot to Beethoven. Indeed, he wrote over the opening: 'Von Herzen - möge es wieder - zu Herzen gehn!' ('From the heart - may it return to the heart!') - although only on the copy presented to Rudolph, and so it may have been a personal message for his friend rather than a dedication intended for humanity at large." (John Suchet mentions the same detail in his brief essay at http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethovens-music-missa-solemnis/)

The idea that Beethoven himself considered Missa Solemnis to be his greatest work seems to be one of those often repeated but rarely supported "truisms" with which casual discussion is so frequently populated. In program notes by Dr. Richard E. Rodda for the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra (http://cincinnatisymphony.org/program-notes/16-17/beethovens-missa-solemnis/) we get "It is not difficult to see why Beethoven regarded the Missa Solemnis as his greatest composition. It represented the confluence, the culmination really, of his life-long concerns with joining music and philosophy, with infusing mere tones with profound thought and deep emotion. The Missa Solemnis is superhuman in its vision, and almost beyond the performing abilities of mortal musicians. (The greatly learned British musicologist Sir Donald Tovey called the 'et vitam venturi' the most difficult choral passage ever written.) Indeed, part of the power of the work lies in the very sense of struggle its performance demands and the unparalleled joy of obstacles overcome. This is music in which performer and listener alike can always find spiritual nourishment and an inexhaustible humanity. The French composer, theorist and teacher Vincent d'Indy said it most succinctly in his biography of Beethoven. Eschewing qualification, he wrote of the Missa Solemnis, 'We stand in the presence of one of the greatest masterworks in the realm of music.'" So here we find that d'Indy considered it Beethoven's greatest works, with a direct quote, but no explanation for saying that Beethoven considered it his own greatest work.

Edit: There may be something in his correspondence with his publisher, Carl Friedrich Peters. Apparently these are quoted in the liner notes of one release (possibly by Bernstein), which have also been described by one reviewer as "deceptive." So, it may be that Beethoven said in one of these letters that Missa Solemnis was his greatest work, but it would have to be a statement evaluated in the light of someone trying to get the work published, and to fetch a good price.

Edit-2: This would seem to confirm my suspicion: "Beethoven himself wrestled with the piece from 1819 until 1823, regularly puffing it in letters to patrons and publishers - even before it was barely started - as the greatest thing he'd ever done. In a parallel with Bach's equally massive B Minor Mass, where the composer had no idea if anyone would ever perform it, Beethoven set off without any specific commission." (https://www.limelightmagazine.com.a...nis-or-how-ludwig-achieved-his-critical-mass/)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

He was extremely pleased with the Hammerklavier Sonata. Exclaimed something like "Finally, I know how to write for the piano!"

Whether he considered it his greatest work, I don't know.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I think I've heard he was also very fond of Grosse Fuge and 14th string quartet.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

...probably *"Wellington's Victory"!!!*


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Missa Solemnis becomes jam-packed with melodies and messages that was satisfyinging for him to write as a completely deaf composer at the time, but is unwieldy, and difficult to enjoy listening as much as he enjoyed writing it. Sometimes you just can't pick up all those things he is trying to say, and it doesn't necessarily translate to great music.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

His was quoted as saying that his favorite symphony was the Eroica. I don't have any sources for favorite overall composition though. As previous posters have mentioned, it would make sense that the Hammerklavier Sonata and Missa Solemnis would be on that short list.

I do know however, that Beethoven's most POPULAR works with the general public during his lifetime were the following:

Septet Op 20
Symphony #1
Piano Sonata 14 (Moonlight)
Wellington's Victory

As you can imagine, Beethoven was very frustrated about this.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Olias said:


> His was quoted as saying that his favorite symphony was the Eroica.


I have also seen quotes that he favoured his 8th among his symphonies.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

I remember reading that the Cavatina from String Quartet No. 13 in B Flat Major, Op. 130 was a special movement for Beethoven, but I'm not sure the rest of Op. 130 could be included as his most favorite. I think he also said something to the effect that the Cavatina was the (only?) movement that brought tears to his eyes.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Piano sonata no 11


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Missa Solemnis becomes jam-packed with melodies and messages that was satisfyinging for him to write as a completely deaf composer at the time, but is unwieldy, and difficult to enjoy listening as much as he enjoyed writing it. Sometimes you just can't pick up all those things he is trying to say, and it doesn't necessarily translate to great music.


I'd have to agree with that.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> I have also seen quotes that he favoured his 8th among his symphonies.


I recall seeing somewhere that he said he was surprised there was such a lot of interest in the 7th symphony, as he felt that the 8th was better. That's not to say that the 8th was his favourite symphony or favourite work.

I've always thought that Beethoven regarded the Missa Solemnis as his favourite work overall. I don't know what he said exactly about it, as quoted in any of the biographies, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was not much more than an off the cuff remark.

Beethoven is known to have spent a long time thinking about the work, and preparing it, as its "customer" was his richest patron (the Cardinal Archduke). One story I've seen on this work suggests that Beethoven may have over-egged its greatness in order to secure the kapellmeister job to the Archduke. There's probably nothing in it.

The Missa Solemnis is certainly a great work, but I wouldn't say it's his best. I prefer the Eroica and some of his late chamber works, or perhaps the Hammerklavier sonata.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven was asked by a friend which symphony was his favorite. The Eroica, he replied. His friend seemingly expected Beethoven to prefer the fifth. This may have occurred before the Choral was written.

Another passage, this one from Holz: "The solo sonatas (op. 109-111?) are perhaps the best, but also the last, music that I composed for the pianoforte. It is and always will be an unsatisfactory instrument. I shall hereafter follow the example of my grandmaster Handel, and every year write only an oratorio and a concerto for some string or wind instrument, provided I shall have finished my tenth symphony (C minor) and Requiem." (of course he immediately set to work on the Diabelli’s… )

From Holz again: " ‘Never did my own music produce such an effect upon me; even now when I recall this work it still costs me a tear.’ (The reference is to the Cavatina from the quartet in B-flat, op. 130, which Beethoven thought the crown of all quartet movements and his favorite composition. When alone and undisturbed he was fond of playing his favorite pianoforte Andante -- that from the sonata op. 28.)”

My own comment: Beethoven was probably like the rest of us, capable of holding several contrasting opinions in a day. So we should be just a bit cautious.

Added: Beethoven expressed a dislike for some of his very popular works, notably the Septet Op. 20 and the C-minor Piano Variations. Also, from Czerny: "They are incessantly talking about the C-sharp minor sonata (op. 27, No. 2); on my word I have written better ones. The F-sharp major sonata (op. 78) is a different thing! "


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: I could say the Brahms First Symphony was Beethoven's greatest work, but some might accuse me of being cynical, so I won't.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Genoveva said:


> I recall seeing somewhere that he said he was surprised there was such a lot of interest in the 7th symphony, as he felt that the 8th was better. That's not to say that the 8th was his favourite symphony or favourite work.
> 
> *I've always thought that Beethoven regarded the Missa Solemnis as his favourite work overall.* I don't know what he said exactly about it, as quoted in any of the biographies, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was not much more than an off the cuff remark.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that both Beethoven and Rachmaninoff may have liked their choral works best. For Beethoven, it was the Missa Solemnis, and for Rachmaninoff it was "The Bells" and "Vespers." In Rachmaninoff's case, I think his Symphony No. 2, Piano Concerto No. 2, Piano Concerto No. 3 and Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini are far better works than either "The Bells" or "Vespers" although these are both great works. I wonder if Rachmaninoff eschewed his piano concertos later in life because he equated them with work (as in concertizing). Just speculating.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I personally consider the Missa Solemnis his best (also as candidate for greatest piece of music ever written), but am unaware of Beethoven ever saying so. As many have mentioned he did express a preference for the Eroica among his symphonies, that the Cavatina moved him to tears, and that the Hammerklavier ought to give pianists something to work on for years.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Genoveva said:


> I've always thought that Beethoven regarded the Missa Solemnis as his favourite work overall. I don't know what he said exactly about it, as quoted in any of the biographies, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was not much more than an off the cuff remark.


Perhaps not exactly off the cuff. In a letter written in 1822 to his friend and secretary, Ferdinand Ries, Beethoven writes, "Mein grösstes Werk ist eine grosse Messe, die ich unlangst geschrieben habe…" (My greatest work is a grand Mass which I have recently composed…).

In 1822/23 Beethoven was in great financial difficulties, and he was trying hard to sell the Mass as lucratively as possible. Beethoven expresses the hope that Ries might be able to sell the work to a London publisher, as he urgently needs the money. Beethoven's great symphonies and concertos were a drag on the market: the most expensive for publishers to print, for the smallest circulation. Publishers earned a lot more money from "lesser" works, such as trios, violin sonatas, or less-difficult piano pieces. So it seems not unlikely that Beethoven's opinion of his recent massive work was meant to be communicated by Ries to any publisher he approached who expressed an interest in the work.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

You know, with all the Beethoven biographers, didn't ANYBODY think to ask this great composer which was his favorite composition?


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Perhaps not exactly off the cuff. In a letter written in 1822 to his friend and secretary, Ferdinand Ries, Beethoven writes, "Mein grösstes Werk ist eine grosse Messe, die ich unlangst geschrieben habe…" (My greatest work is a grand Mass which I have recently composed…).
> 
> In 1822/23 Beethoven was in great financial difficulties, and he was trying hard to sell the Mass as lucratively as possible. Beethoven expresses the hope that Ries might be able to sell the work to a London publisher, as he urgently needs the money. Beethoven's great symphonies and concertos were a drag on the market: the most expensive for publishers to print, for the smallest circulation. Publishers earned a lot more money from "lesser" works, such as trios, violin sonatas, or less-difficult piano pieces. So it seems not unlikely that Beethoven's opinion of his recent massive work was meant to be communicated by Ries to any publisher he approached who expressed an interest in the work.


Yes I can believe what you say in your second paragaph. I recall reading something similar a while back when I was checking up on the state of Beethoven's finances for the purposes of some other thread. In regard to the Missa Solemnis, he was trying to maximise the "payoff" from selling it by involving six publishers who were competing for the rights. It may have been in the context of talking up the work for this sale that his remarks to Ries slipped out.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> In 1822/23 Beethoven was in great financial difficulties, and he was trying hard to sell the Mass as lucratively as possible.


There's actually a web page estimating how much Beethoven made from his various works. The _Missa Solemnis_ is at the top, with personal earnings for Ludwig totaling about US$100 thousand equiv.

http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/2010/08/813-how-much-was-beethoven-paid.html

As in the case of the late quartets, much of his revenues was from the sale of "subscriptions." Not sure what these were, but they seem to have included an autographed copy of the score and admittance to the premiere performance. Lots of people evidently wanted "study scores."


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

In the end, Beethoven sold ten subscriptions for a net profit of 1,650 florins, roughly 60,000 USD in today's money. He received another 1000 florins in publisher's fees. The total amount received for his 4 years of labor on the Mass, according to Swafford, amounted to less than 3 years of a lower-level civil servant's income. As a bonus for Beethoven, Louis XVIII's subscription to the Mass included a commemorative gold medal, of which the recipient was extremely proud, pointing out to whoever would listen that it contained half a pound of gold.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Since most people seem to think that Beethoven himself regarded the Missa Solemnis as as his best work, quite coincidentally I discovered that this work was the subject of this week's Radio 3 "Disc of the Week" in their Saturday Record Review programme. They selected a new version just released by _Bach Collegium Japan_, Masaaki Suzuki (conductor). The extract they played sounded good so I acquired a flac download of the work. It's a period performance. I find everything about it very good if anyone's looking to acquire this work for the first time or another version.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm guessing that Beethoven's favourite piece was often the piece he was working on / trying to flog. At the end of the day some of his correspondences vould be viewed as little more than advertising for an upcoming new release. Missa and Fidelio obviously caused him a lot of angst but he never consistently picked a favourite amongst his pieces, in the same way that many artists don't have a favourite painting. Although he was confused as to why his 8th Symphony was less favoured by the public to his 7th symphony there is little evidence that he rated the 8th as his favourite (or the Eroica for that matter). How often have you heard some rock star opining that their new album is "the best thing I've ever done"?


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Added: Beethoven expressed a dislike for some of his very popular works, notably the Septet Op. 20 and the C-minor Piano Variations. Also, from Czerny: "They are incessantly talking about the C-sharp minor sonata (op. 27, No. 2); on my word I have written better ones. The F-sharp major sonata (op. 78) is a different thing! "


Is he only talking about the first movement here? The third movement is what I would call a "different thing."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

AeolianStrains said:


> Is he only talking about the first movement here? The third movement is what I would call a "different thing."


I guess you'd have to ask Beethoven.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I guess you'd have to ask Beethoven.


Or Czerny. Last time I asked ol' Ludwig anything, he didn't seem to hear me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

AeolianStrains said:


> Or Czerny. Last time I asked ol' Ludwig anything, he didn't seem to hear me.


Beethoven wrote a lot of deaf defying music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beet131 said:


> I remember reading that the Cavatina from String Quartet No. 13 in B Flat Major, Op. 130 was a special movement for Beethoven, but I'm not sure the rest of Op. 130 could be included as his most favorite. I think he also said something to the effect that the Cavatina was the (only?) movement that brought tears to his eyes.


Beet's me!! Who knows?


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## Dr F (4 mo ago)

Kieran said:


> Did he make any mention of this?
> 
> Thanks! :tiphat:


I don't know whether there is any reliable evidence. One would have to research his letters and so on. When I was at university studying music in the 1970s, our professor told us that the answer was Symphony no. 8, but I think he might have been referring solely to the symphonies. (I can't exactly see why; I think the most original and satisfying somehow is no. 6. For violence of rhythm - of which Beethoven seems to have been fond - then no. 5 and no. 8, possibly also no. 3. (I also wonder why nos. 2 and 4 are relatively neglected.))


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## Dr F (4 mo ago)

DavidA said:


> According to him it was the Missa Solemnis


Evidence?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Dr F said:


> Evidence?


His visitor Edward Shulz published an account in 1824 of a day spent with Beethoven in late September 1823. After providing many details of Beethoven's preferences in music, he wrote: "His second Mass he looks upon as his best work, I understood." https://books.google.ca/books?id=6a5kDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA153


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

If I recall correctly, late in his life Beethoven is quoted to have called Op. 131 his greatest _string quartet_, and the fact that back then he specified the category of the work could arguably imply that he considered a piece that is not a string quartet as his best. By 1823, as others in this thread have showed, it seems that he thought that Op. 123 was his greatest work. The only major piece of music that he completed after 1823 and wasn't a string quartet is Op. 125, and of course he couldn't rate it before composing it, so I think it's logic to assume that Beethoven's greatest work according to himself when he had completed his oeuvre was either the _Missa Solemnis_ or the _Choral_ symphony.


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## mollig (Nov 20, 2021)

If Beethoven considered the Missa Solemnis his greatest work, the Hammerklavier his greatest sonata, and number 8 his best symphony, it just goes to show that great artists are rarely the best judges of their own work. And/or that the way artists see their own work and the way the public sees it are often very different.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

mollig said:


> If Beethoven considered the *Missa Solemnis* his greatest work, the *Hammerklavier* his greatest sonata, and *number 8 his best symphony*, it just goes to show that great artists are rarely the best judges of their own work. And/or that the way artists see their own work and the way the public sees it are often very different.


The three works mentioned are astonishing masterpieces in my opinion. Nonetheless, I'm not aware of Beethoven ever arguing that the eighth symphony was his best (he said that it was better than the seventh if I remember correctly).

In discussions such as this, it's important to have in mind _when_ the artist said that one of his works was the best/best in a genre. Because, obviously, one can't rate a work of art that one didn't create yet.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is little completely reliable evidence because even the authentic quotes, some of which were cited in the thread, could have been to some extent "sales pitch". However, they should still be taken seriously, but in context. (I think artists are not infallible when rating their own work, but it seems rather odd to deny that they have a somewhat privileged position. And in the case of Beethoven there is obviously a large overlap between his own and the public rating.)
I am quite certain that the claim that the 8th symphony was "much better than the 7th" was rather flippant (because he was angry that the 7th had had so much more success) and in any case he never said that it was _the_ best/greatest of all of them. To my knowledge he said this about the Eroica and later about the 9th. Also about op.106 that it was a sonata they will play in 50 years. 
It seems that he was a bit impressed by the sheer size and scope of these works (although on the other hand there is the praise for the 8th and the tiny sonata op.78). As another quotation further above shows that Beethoven apparently also made some distinction between piano and 2-3 players chamber music and string quartets upwards.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Olias said:


> His was quoted as saying that his favorite symphony was the Eroica. I don't have any sources for favorite overall composition though. As previous posters have mentioned, it would make sense that the Hammerklavier Sonata and Missa Solemnis would be on that short list.
> 
> I do know however, that Beethoven's most POPULAR works with the general public during his lifetime were the following:
> 
> ...


That can't be true- Wellington's Victory and Symphony no. 1 require orchestral forces to play, and there were no recordings. So they must have been less frequently played than some of his piano and chamber works (which could be listened to more as it required smaller forces or a soloist). Unless piano/chamber reductions of the First Symphony were popular?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

It's obvious by this thread that Beethoven was a wishy-washy indecisive individual, who didn't even name a favorite work. He'd probably get along with a lot of members here who can't even compile a simple Top 300 Telemann Horn Concerto list.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> It's obvious by this thread that Beethoven was a wishy-washy indecisive individual, who didn't even name a favorite work. He'd probably get along with a lot of members here who can't even compile a simple Top 300 Telemann Horn Concerto list.


I suppose that this post was sarcastic, but nonetheless the "indecisive individual" thing is false in my opinion. It seems to me that he _did have_ his preferences among his works, but as time passed they changed as he kept composing new masterpieces. For example, before he wrote the _Hammerklavier_ sonatas his favorite was the _Appassionata_.


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## mollig (Nov 20, 2021)

Xisten267 said:


> The three works mentioned are astonishing masterpieces in my opinion. Nonetheless, I'm not aware of Beethoven ever arguing that the eighth symphony was his best (he said that it was better than the seventh if I remember correctly).
> 
> In discussions such as this, it's important to have in mind _when_ the artist said that one of his works was the best/best in a genre. Because, obviously, one can't rate a work of art that one didn't create yet.


Of course, a lot of it boils down to subjective opinion. I can admire the Missa Solemnis and Hammerklavier on a kind of intellectual level but I couldn't say I love them they way I love the Appassionata or Opus 111 or Opus 132. The fugue at the end of the Hammerklavier Sonata just pains me to listen to, no matter how technically impressive it might be.
As for the 8th being better than the 7th, I'm sure an argument could be made for it but it's certainly a minority view!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is some ambiguity how to determine what was "most popular". Frequency of performance, supportive reviews, mentions in papers, sales of sheet music could all have been different and none is very reliable data. Of course one cannot do Wellingtons's victory very well at home (although there were in fact reductions and arrangements, I have heard one that is totally silly with some kind of noisemaking toys for the gunfire).
And composers themselves are often very fond of recently finished works, cf. Mozart saying about the piano quintet K 452 that it was his best work to date, really better than the d minor string quartet or the Abduction? He probably just felt (correctly) that he had done something rather special and original and was proud of it. Or Beethoven praising his sonata op.22, a work not popular today.


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## Otis B. Driftwood (4 mo ago)

Regarding the composer's subjectivity... Apparently Beethoven considered Cherubini to be the greatest of his contemporaries. If true, it's not an opinion many would share today.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think Beethoven admired Cherubini because of his serious "modern" opera and serious choral music. This was after Haydn's death and before Schubert and Weber had done anything noteworthy. The other famous living composer was Rossini and he was an "enemy" (3 frivolous Italian operas per year...) 
But I think it is likely that Beethoven didn't care much about any contemporary, as someone put it, from a certain stage own most composers are only interested in their own music, and this was probably true for Beethoven already around 1805. Even then, I'd bet he was more interested in Mozart, Bach, Handel than in Cherubini, Spohr or other contemporaries.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

mollig said:


> If Beethoven considered the Missa Solemnis his greatest work, the Hammerklavier his greatest sonata, and number 8 his best symphony, it just goes to show that great artists are rarely the best judges of their own work. And/or that the way artists see their own work and the way the public sees it are often very different.


Beethoven said the Eighth was better than his Seventh, not that it was his greatest symphony. 

The Hammerklavier is considered a candidate for the greatest piano sonata.

Maybe Beethoven considered the Missa Solemnis his greatest work because it was his greatest religious work, and those might be considered to be more important than secular works. (Some Victorians considered Mendelssohn's Elijah to be the greatest work of all time period, or tying with Handel's Messiah as the greatest work. No one thinks that today.)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> it is likely that Beethoven didn't care much about any contemporary


_"Euryanthe is an accumulation of diminished seventh chords — all little backdoors!"
“He (Spohr) is too rich in dissonances, pleasure in his music is marred by his chromatic melody.”_


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mollig said:


> The fugue at the end of the Hammerklavier Sonata just pains me to listen to, no matter how technically impressive it might be.


Have you tried HIP? The modern piano is too resonant for the work.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

well, I would also suggest that "Missa Solemnis" and the fourth movement of his "Eroica" are what Beethoven's considered to be his greatest works. 

if you read his letters you will find that he spent a lot of his time and effort to promote "Missa Solemnis", and when it comes to his "Eroica" he actually used the theme of its final movement in his ballet, and also he devoted a whole variation for the same theme. 

we must not forget that the last string quartets are considered his most personal works. for example the last movement of the 16th sq is about the tragedy that was about to happened to Beethoven's nephew carl, in the beginning the the movement Beethoven wrote "must it be?" "it must be!"


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Obviously it was Fur Elise.


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