# New Turandot Ending From Feminist's Perspective



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

http://www.cltampa.com/arts-enterta...ding-it-deserves-and-its-brilliantly-feminist


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Oh dear, this is going to ruffle some feathers.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

In order to accept this premise one also has to buy into the belief that the ice princess is exactly that -- a cold, man-hating individual. If you believe that -- it works.
However, if you delve a little deeper into her psyche you might find a person whose icy exterior is actually nothing more than a safe front. More likely the lady is terrified of her own passions (as is indicated in one of the riddles), and in order to keep them in check she paints her exterior as cold and indifferent to men.
If, in fact, she had such a deep anger over her raped relative she would never have allowed another "sister" (Liu) to be chastised to her death. In fact, if she really were the cold princess that she postulates, she'd be siding with the female part in her through another female and protect (not kill) her.
Nah! She's just a hot broad who finally found a guy that brought her to her knees and exposed the true persona underneath.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Could the fact that the Tampa, Florida audience at this performance "roared its approval" be just another indication of the Trump Effect? Perhaps the mob in attendance would really have liked to send "feminist" Turandot and her hit squad over to Mar-a-Lago.


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

Why do they have to do this? This is not the ending Puccini envisoned when he was composing the music. If you're going to change the plot of an opera at least change the name too. Call it a remake or whatever.

I also have to wonder how many in the audience knew the ending was changed from the original.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm not sure how a Turandot who ends up just as vengeful and murderous as she begins is a great feminist statement. But oh well.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I am not getting this at all, and I trust that it is not merely the fact that I possess Y chromosomes. If someone steals $100 from me, and I cannot get it back from that person, can I take that money from someone who at least looks like that person and call it justice?

With a little more thought, I also think that the new ending completely misunderstands things. Turandot _is_ already in complete control of her destiny with the original ending. She has the means to kill her would-be lover as he has revealed his name, and she _chooses_ not to do so. The new ending, it seems to me, makes her a slave to an irresolvable tragic past, over which she can never have any control.


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

amfortas said:


> I'm not sure how a Turandot who ends up just as vengeful and murderous as she begins is a great feminist statement. But oh well.


Well, it's really not.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> I'm not sure how a Turandot who ends up just as vengeful and murderous as she begins is a great feminist statement. But oh well.


The approving review was written by a woman, one Cathy Salustri, who evidently believes that being wooed and kissed constitutes sexual harassment and that execution is not only appropriate punishment for the crime but appropriate revenge on all men. And the audience evidently agreed with her.

Puccini would not have understood the world we now live in.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Any excuse to get rid of the glut of tenors is fine by me


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

The appeal of Turandot is that lots of women are cold ice princesses but they should not be like that. This is just garbage.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

For me the appeal of Turandot is the music. I don't care for the original ending. That said, I'm also not a fan of changing works of art in this manner...if a "new" Turandot was desired, then I'd prefer to see a new one comissioned. FWIW, it's unclear as to whether it was intended to actually be a feminist statement or not, based on the article.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Sloe said:


> The appeal of Turandot is that lots of women are cold ice princesses but they should not be like that. This is just garbage.


Not really sure where I stand with this....should women feel obligated to be in a relationship if they don't want to be?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Sloe said:


> The appeal of Turandot is that lots of women are cold ice princesses but they should not be like that.


I'm fine with a woman being a "cold ice princess"--that's entirely her business--but would prefer she doesn't kill people.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

It might be said that there's likely more than one definition out there of what being a feminist constitutes. I consider myself one, though, having seen a more traditional staging of Turandot just this past weekend, I'm not sure I'd consider this alternative ending, as described, to fit my definition of "feminist." 

That said, it's fairly easy for me to see how the whole notion of women as a "thing" to be given to a man, whatever her inclinations to be troubling to some. Things become more complicated, say, with Eva in Die Meistersinger, who does have a notion of whom she wants to be "given" to. 

I haven't given the matter as much thought as it deserves, yet. But I have had the notion lately in my head that another opera that has some feminist ideals baked-in might be Fidelio. But that's strictly IMO, and could be shot down by other arguments, I'm sure.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I love Fidelio's message


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

JAS said:


> I am not getting this at all, and I trust that it is not merely the fact that I possess Y chromosomes. If someone steals $100 from me, and I cannot get it back from that person, can I take that money from someone who at least looks like that person and call it justice?
> 
> With a little more thought, I also think that the new ending completely misunderstands things. Turandot _is_ already in complete control of her destiny with the original ending. She has the means to kill her would-be lover as he has revealed his name, and she _chooses_ not to do so. The new ending, it seems to me, makes her a slave to an irresolvable tragic past, over which she can never have any control.


Indeed. The "new" ending makes her an irredimable serial killer.

That's not feminism. That's misandry.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

In 1920 Puccini, in planning for Turandot, wrote that it was necessary "to exalt the amorous passion of Turandot, who for such a long time has suffocated beneath the ashes of her great pride." That hardly seems like a justification for this weird alternative ending.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

hardly surprising. a more reasonable ending (Turandot being put to death/thrown in jail for life for the arbitrary murder of multiple men and the torturing to death of a slave) would hardly fit the feminist narrative of absolving women of all responsibility for their actions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> Indeed. The "new" ending makes her an irredimable serial killer.
> 
> That's not feminism. That's misandry.


Evidently Cathy Salustri considers them one and the same.

The plot of _Turandot_ is problematic for a lot of people, with the vacuous and obsessive hero and the abruptly transformed harpy getting it on over the corpse of their hapless little victim. I really have to work to overlook what's actually happening and to just enjoy the music. Alfano's original longer ending (and no, Ms. Salustri, Alfano didn't write the libretto to his "peppy little ending," made littler by Toscanini's butchery) at least gave Turandot more time to thaw before succumbing to Calaf's triumphant kiss. No ending can be completely satisfactory, and we'll never know what Puccini would have done to maximize its credibility and overcome our scruples.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Evidently Cathy Salustri considers them one and the same.
> 
> The plot of _Turandot_ is problematic for a lot of people, with the vacuous and obsessive hero and the abruptly transformed harpy getting it on over the corpse of their hapless little victim. I really have to work to overlook what's actually happening and to just enjoy the music. Alfano's original longer ending (and no, Ms. Salustri, Alfano didn't write the libretto to his "peppy little ending," made littler by Toscanini's butchery) at least gave Turandot more time to thaw before succumbing to Calaf's triumphant kiss. No ending can be completely satisfactory, and we'll never know what Puccini would have done to maximize its credibility and overcome our scruples.


Puccini's operas are a little more twisted than most today realize. for example, Salome making out obsessively with the decapitated skull of Jon the Baptist.
Edit:...or not. that was Strauss. I'm an idiot lol


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Puccini's operas are a little more twisted than most today realize. for example, Salome making out obsessively with the decapitated skull of Jon the Baptist.


?????

But that is Richard Strauss.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Puccini's operas are a little more twisted than most today realize. for example, Salome making out obsessively with the decapitated skull of Jon the Baptist.


Where? Where? I'm so into that stuff!!

Wait, un momento, signore.... Salome was by Richard Strauss!!!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

thank you for the correction. how embarassing of me


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Puccini's operas are a little more twisted than most today realize. for example, Salome making out obsessively with the decapitated skull of Jon the Baptist.
> Edit:...or not. that was Strauss. I'm an idiot lol


Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? (is that 15 characters yet?)


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Puccini's operas are a little more twisted than most today realize. for example, Salome making out obsessively with the decapitated skull of Jon the Baptist.
> Edit:...or not. that was Strauss. I'm an idiot lol


Yeah, that was definitely Strauss. Italians are absolutely _incapable _of being that twisted!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> thank you for the correction. how embarassing of me


Very minor. Still, making out with skulls is so not boring!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Yeah, that was definitely Strauss. Italians are absolutely _incapable _of being that twisted!


LOL!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Yeah. Germans had a monopoly on that sort of thing. I woulda moved there if they promised not to gas me.


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Puccini's operas are a little more twisted than most today realize. for example, Salome making out obsessively with the decapitated skull of Jon the Baptist.
> Edit:...or not. that was Strauss. I'm an idiot lol


But the opera is based on Wilde's play Salome. And Wilde is a treasure to all of humanity. I was surprised to see how truthful the opera is to the play. A lot of dialogue, maybe all of it, was copied directly onto the libretto, translated of course.

The scene were Salome tells him "I am amorous of thy body" literally made me cry, both in the opera and in the play itself.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

"Twisted" to Italians means Fusilli Pasta.

"I am amorous of thy body." Sounds like the eHarmony date I never had.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> thank you for the correction. how embarassing of me


However, in Turandot, they were chopping heads off of those who came forward but were unable to solve the riddles.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> But the opera is based on Wilde's play Salome. And Wilde is a treasure to all of humanity. I was surprised to see how truthful the opera is to the play. A lot of dialogue, maybe all of it, was copied directly onto the libretto, translated of course.
> 
> The scene were Salome tells him "I am amorous of thy body" literally made me cry, both in the opera and in the play itself.


that explains a lot. he was not the type to pull punches


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

What a bunch of crap... 

I find that ending totally un-Puccini-esque


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

cheftimmyr said:


> What a bunch of crap...
> 
> I find that ending totally un-Puccini-esque


Well I don't know about that. He had a thing for protagonists dying, it seems.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bettina said:


> Yeah, that was definitely Strauss. Italians are absolutely _incapable _of being that twisted!


Not sure Bettina, not sure at all.....


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> Well I don't know about that. He had a thing for protagonists dying, it seems.


Protagonists dying is the primary subject of opera. Puccini's specialty was the torture of young women.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> hardly surprising. a more reasonable ending (Turandot being put to death/thrown in jail for life for the arbitrary murder of multiple men and the torturing to death of a slave) would hardly fit the feminist narrative of absolving women of all responsibility for their actions.


I'd better go review the Terms of Service before replying.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> Well I don't know about that. He had a thing for protagonists dying, it seems.


The opera is called Turandot. So Balalaikaboys ending would be more suitable but I like that not all Puccini´s operas are exactly the same.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> Well I don't know about that. He had a thing for protagonists dying, it seems.


You call Calaf a protagonist?? A person caring only for his selfish gains and ultimate power (he's no dope ya know!) to the point that he doesn't even support his lame father and allows Liu to be chastised to the point where she kills herself for love of that bum (whatta waste).
(And no excuses that "oh well, those were the times when they did stuff like that" suffices as an acceptable excuse for his unmanly behavior.)
Pinkerton looks like an absolute angel next to that guy.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

(Note to self, for future reference: should opportunity to date Cathy Salustri arise, avoid at all costs. If unable to avoid, make sure that I have a food taster.)


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> However, in Turandot, they were chopping heads off of those who came forward but were unable to solve the riddles.


Now that you mention it, killing people for being unable to answer three riddles seems perfectly justified.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

JAS said:


> Now that you mention it, killing people for being unable to answer three riddles seems perfectly justified.


They knew what they were in for.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

JAS said:


> Now that you mention it, killing people for being unable to answer three riddles seems perfectly justified.


I smell a TV game show.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

JAS said:


> Now that you mention it, killing people for being unable to answer three riddles seems perfectly justified.


_Pace_, Mime.bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Sloe said:


> The opera is called Turandot. So Balalaikaboys ending would be more suitable but I like that not all Puccini´s operas are exactly the same.


Except for _Gianni Schicchi_ where one 'character' dies before the opera begins.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

cheftimmyr said:


> What a bunch of crap...
> 
> I find that ending totally un-Puccini-esque


Which it should be, since he didn't write it.

Yes. The ending is a complete let down.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Becca said:


> Except for _Gianni Schicchi_ where one 'character' dies before the opera begins.


I meant that Turandot was the protagonist.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> You call Calaf a protagonist?? A person caring only for his selfish gains and ultimate power (he's no dope ya know!) to the point that he doesn't even support his lame father and allows Liu to be chastised to the point where she kills herself for love of that bum (whatta waste).
> (And no excuses that "oh well, those were the times when they did stuff like that" suffices as an acceptable excuse for his unmanly behavior.)
> Pinkerton looks like an absolute angel next to that guy.


Sometimes bad people are protagonists.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Sometimes bad people are protagonists.


"main character in any story, such as a literary work or drama.
Protagonist | Definition of Protagonist by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/protagonist
Definition of protagonist. 1a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or story)b : a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event."

The title of the opera is "Turandot" and as such I would have to say that she was considered the protagonist.
So who would you say is the "antagonist" then? To me looks like Calaf sure fits the bill!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> "main character in any story, such as a literary work or drama.
> Protagonist | Definition of Protagonist by Merriam-Webster
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/protagonist
> Definition of protagonist. 1a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or story)b : a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event."
> ...


I don't think Turandot have an antagonist.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> I also have to wonder how many in the audience knew the ending was changed from the original.


EVERYBODY knew. Or at least everybody who even glanced at the program, or paid any attention at all to what was going on at this gala benefit concert performance.

I have to wonder how many people in this thread knew that this wasn't part of a staged performance of _Turandot_.

This was a 100th birthday celebration for conductor and composer Anton Coppola, focusing on his own compositions. It was done to benefit Opera Tampa, the company he helped start in 1996.

The gala concert included the premiere of his ending for _Turandot_, not the entire opera, or even the entire third act. The concert also included part of Coppola's 2001 opera, _Sacco and Vanzetti_, and a medley he put together of music from the Godfather films (Coppola did not compose the music for his nephew's films, though he conducted the score for Part III and appears in the film conducting Cavalleria Rusticana).


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> http://www.cltampa.com/arts-enterta...ding-it-deserves-and-its-brilliantly-feminist





Pugg said:


> Oh dear, this is going to ruffle some feathers.





nina foresti said:


> In order to accept this premise one also has to buy into the belief that the ice princess is exactly that -- a cold, man-hating individual. If you believe that -- it works.
> However, if you delve a little deeper into her psyche you might find a person whose icy exterior is actually nothing more than a safe front. More likely the lady is terrified of her own passions (as is indicated in one of the riddles), and in order to keep them in check she paints her exterior as cold and indifferent to men.
> If, in fact, she had such a deep anger over her raped relative she would never have allowed another "sister" (Liu) to be chastised to her death. In fact, if she really were the cold princess that she postulates, she'd be siding with the female part in her through another female and protect (not kill) her.
> Nah! She's just a hot broad who finally found a guy that brought her to her knees and exposed the true persona underneath.





Becca said:


> Any excuse to get rid of the glut of tenors is fine by me





Sonata said:


> For me the appeal of Turandot is the music. I don't care for the original ending. That said, I'm also not a fan of changing works of art in this manner...if a "new" Turandot was desired, then I'd prefer to see a new one comissioned. FWIW, it's unclear as to whether it was intended to actually be a feminist statement or not, based on the article.


All reasons I just love this web site :kiss: . I can't get enough of you folks.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Bettina said:


> Yeah, that was definitely Strauss. Italians are absolutely _incapable _of being that twisted!


Um...anybody see the Pasolini movie, "Salo?"


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

JAS said:


> With a little more thought, I also think that the new ending completely misunderstands things. Turandot _is_ already in complete control of her destiny with the original ending. She has the means to kill her would-be lover as he has revealed his name, and she _chooses_ not to do so. The new ending, it seems to me, makes her a slave to an irresolvable tragic past, over which she can never have any control.


But that isn't what happens in _Turandot_ as written. She loses her will when Calaf kisses her; she is no longer in control.



> TURANDOT
> Touch me not,
> it is a sacrilege!
> 
> ...


*Emphasis* added. Taken from this English translation (side-by-side with the Italian)

There are many ways in which Turandot is problematic, but if we're making a feminist critique of how this opera works, this part is where I'd focus. This is a male fantasy, that any woman (even the harshest ice princess) can be conquered by a kiss (or other physical contact; commonly presented in a much more crass fashion), and, even worse, that a man has a right to force his kiss (etc.) on a woman ("filled with the sense of his right").

This is what the revised text bristles against, changing one of her lines after the kiss to "With an obscene kiss, a forceful kiss, you think to dominate the princess of the celestial kingdom?" The male fantasy falls apart, and Turandot sends him to his death.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> But that isn't what happens in _Turandot_ as written. She loses her will when Calaf kisses her; she is no longer in control.
> 
> *Emphasis* added. Taken from this English translation (side-by-side with the Italian)
> 
> ...


You prefer that she continues to execute her suitors?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Sloe said:


> You prefer that she continues to execute her suitors?


I'm not saying that Coppola's revised ending is _happy_. (Though I haven't heard it, and I presume no one else here has either. We have precious little to go on. Perhaps the end chorus calls for an end to this system, allowing Turandot to stay unmarried (though I bet that would have been mentioned in the articles)).

This ending is tragedy for Turandot, too, who is clearly tortured by the role she has to play. And part of that tragedy is that Calaf was impetuous and did not respect Turandot. A more reasonable, less forceful man might have not been killed and helped her.

Though, of course, the irony is that this is the only sort of suitor that will approach Turandot since it is clear she doesn't want to marry, as well as the life-or-death stakes of doing so.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

An important factor they leave out is if the music is good. I love the music for the standard ending of Turandot.I think this ending sounds stupid and how does it leave you feeling?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

znapschatz said:


> Um...anybody see the Pasolini movie, "Salo?"


I did, can't get it out of my head.....


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