# Musicals



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Musical movies; contemporary opera. 

I must admit I prefer musicals more than classical operas. Every single voice is unique, only one singer is bounded to every character. And soprano is just soprano. Better or worse, but still a soprano. No more, no less. 

My favorite musicals are these made in 70's. Above all: Jesus Christ Superstar. I never get tired with that one. I prefer movie version with Ted Neeley as Jesus, the rock-opera with Gillan had poor singers, except Gillan, of course. I also loved Tim Burton's Sweeney Todd. Not excatly for the music, but it wasn't really bad anyway, huh?


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

ALW's Jesus Christ Superstar and The Phantom of the Opera. I like these not because of their music, but because of a "nostalgic" feeling they give me  Although I don't remember when I've listened to them last time... A year ago, probably.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> Musical movies; contemporary opera.
> 
> I must admit I prefer musicals more than classical operas. Every single voice is unique, only one singer is bounded to every character. And soprano is just soprano. Better or worse, but still a soprano. No more, no less.
> 
> My favorite musicals are these made in 70's. Above all: Jesus Christ Superstar. I never get tired with that one. I prefer movie version with Ted Neeley as Jesus, the rock-opera with Gillan had poor singers, except Gillan, of course. I also loved Tim Burton's Sweeney Todd. Not excatly for the music, but it wasn't really bad anyway, huh?


What do you mean by "only one singer is bounded to every character"? That's the case in opera too, isn't it?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> What do you mean by "only one singer is bounded to every character"? That's the case in opera too, isn't it?


No, the modern musical is recorded and performed by one, original cast. Mostly. Opera is composition, not record and it's performed by thousands diffrent singers all over the time and space, since it was written. It's noticed that some composers wrote arias and more stuff for singers they did know at their time. But now, since its possible to record music, we can really consider the timbre of singer's voice, not only choose from few types.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> No, the modern musical is recorded and performed by one, original cast. Mostly. Opera is composition, not record and it's performed by thousands diffrent singers all over the time and space, since it was written. It's noticed that some composers wrote arias and more stuff for singers they did know at their time. But now, since its possible to record music, we can really consider the timbre of singer's voice, not only choose from few types.


Well, hit musicals are sung by different sets of singers as well, and often they are recorded more than once also.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Aramis said:


> I must admit I prefer musicals more than classical operas. Every single voice is unique, only one singer is bounded to every character.


Do you ever stop to think about... the music? So far you've stated your preferences are not set over the works themselves, but on something that looks like the possibility of role monopolization. I get for you The phantom of the opera would outrank Siegfried only because there have been many Siegfrieds throughout history. A ludicrous thought.
Do you ever take music into consideration when analyzing... music?

No matter how stupid I find the previous idea (I mean, yours), I just can not understand why monopolization of roles by certain artists would be intrinsically good.



Aramis said:


> And soprano is just soprano. Better or worse, but still a soprano. No more, no less.


Such thought definitely speaks more about you than what you think it does on _no-more-no-less-sopranos_.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Which contemporary operas are you acquainted with?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

You just get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that something is better than the other thing. Just said what I like more, and that is totally subjective. I understand that operas like Siegfried are more valuable works than these movies we're talking about. Still I find "possibility of role monopolization" as something positive.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> You just get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that something is better than the other thing. Just said what I like more, and that is totally subjective. I understand that operas like Siegfried are more valuable works than these movies we're talking about. Still I find "possibility of role monopolization" as something positive.


Not trying to be a pain the you know what, but is there such a thing as role monopolization when it comes to a hit musical? I'm sure that there must have been quite a few different casts of singers who have sung Show Boat, Annie Get Your Gun, My Fair Lady or Evita over the years.

I don't think that all sopranos sound the same in opera either - if that is what you are saying (and you can correct me if I'm wrong). Say, Mirella Freni, Maria Callas, Joan Sutherland, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Kiri Te Kanawa, Birgit Nilsson, Victoria de Los Angeles and Renata Tebaldi are all great sopranos who all sound very different from one another to my ears.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Aramis said:


> You just get me wrong.


No. I don't.



Aramis said:


> I'm not trying to say that something is better than the other thing.


I never said you were. You are getting me wrong.



Aramis said:


> Just said what I like more, and that is totally subjective.


I know what you said. You stated that in order to decide what you like and dislike, you consider things that are external to the musical works, like how many different singers can play a role in diverse performances.



> Every single voice is unique, only one singer is bounded to every character.


See? You said you prefer musicals to opera because of the unambiguous identification of singers with roles.?



> Still I find "possibility of role monopolization" as something positive.


Why? I still think it's stupid.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Why? I still think it's stupid.


Just because author can decide himself who he wants to work with and write music especially for this singer and his unique voice. Then make a record with statement: this is it - my musical titled "Purple Elephant in New York II: The Might and Magic". Anything else; other records and stage performances with another cast are completely diffrent thing.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Aramis said:


> Just because author can decide himself who he wants to work with and write music especially for this singer and his unique voice. Then make a record with statement: this is it - my musical titled "Purple Elephant in New York II: The Might and Magic". Anything else; other records and stage performances with another cast are completely diffrent thing.


So I'm right, you don't ever stop to think about the music. You don't really listen to the operas or musicals but, in general, you are sure you will prefer one genre to the other based only on the idea that as the composer chooses the cast the performance will be _unique_.
Do you really not catch the idiocy in these ideas?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, I'm sure that musicals are sometimes (or often) cast after the composition is completed and opera composers too have written works with specific singers in mind.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Aramis said:


> Just because author can decide himself who he wants to work with and write music especially for this singer and his unique voice.


For example?

And I may insist, what contemporary operas do you know?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> You don't really listen to the operas or musicals but, in general, you are sure you will prefer one genre to the other based only on the idea that as the composer chooses the cast the performance will be unique.


No! :S

And stop talking about me, thats not what this topic is all about. If you dislike my ideas and preferences it's really not my problem.



> For example?


Example of what? Of this possibility? Well, I wrote some arias for my rabbit and today we're going to record it.



> And I may insist, what contemporary operas do you know?


I'm not into contemporary classical. I was talking about composers of old which had no recording studios and stuff like that.



> and opera composers too have written works with specific singers in mind.


Yes, but they were unabe to immortalize performances with these singers.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

> Yes, but they were unabe to immortalize performances with these singers.


Well yeah, that's kinda the point... There were composers that had in mind particular singers, but obviously they couldn't make a recording with those guys. Nowdays composers can do that. I don't understand what are you arguing about  I mean guys back then couldn't record, guys right now can. That's all there is to it


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Aramis said:


> And stop talking about me,


Don't get mad, after all, you started talking about yourself:



> I must admit I prefer musicals more than classical operas. (etc)





Aramis said:


> If you dislike my ideas and preferences it's really not my problem.


It may be a problem for you, actually. You can't really support them.



> Example of what? Of this possibility? Well, I wrote some arias for my rabbit and today we're going to record it.


Apparently you are not up to the tone of this discussion. I was asking, and I still am, for examples of tailor made roles in musicals.



> I'm not into contemporary classical.


But you introduced the thread citing contemporary opera. Unless you were trying to state that musicals are the new operas, which is not true.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

nickgray said:


> I don't understand what are you arguing about


There's no real argument on his side here. The uniqueness of certain modern musicals makes them preferable to old operas, just because they are modern and documented through unique and so far definitive recordings. Am I the only one that regards this as stupid?
It's very much like liking a car because it's parked in a beautiful garage: preferences are being set on parameters which aren't really intrinsic to the object of analysis.

It would be ok to state operas are long, boring, complex, sung in other languages.. and so they are second to musicals. Because that proves some analysis of the operas has been done (libretto, compositional style, dramatic construction, etc). But supporting this only on the fact that they are new and subject to recording? That is, again, ludicrous.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Don't get mad, after all, you started talking about yourself


I said what I like and this is not material for discussion.



> I was asking, and I still am, for examples of tailor made roles in musicals.


Jesus Christ Superstar. Andrew Lloyd Webber called Ian Gillan before the full material was ready, and it's easy to see (if you know Gillan) that some songs was ment to be performed by him.



> Unless you were trying to state that musicals are the new operas, which is not true.


I did, but not too seriously though.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Aramis said:


> I said _what _I like and this is not material for discussion.


You said _why _you like that, and that is what we are currently arguing about.


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## Alnitak (Oct 21, 2008)

As I can see, Mr Aramis, you like to tell jokes:



Aramis; said:


> soprano is just soprano. Better or worse, but still a soprano. No more, no less.


Will I tell you the truth? This one is not very funny.

In fact, there are so many about sopranos, funnier than yours, although as nasty and as stupid as yours, like those ones:

- What's the difference between a soprano and a terrorist?

_You can negotiate with a terrorist._

- What's the difference between a soprano and a piranha?

_The lipstick._

- What's the difference between a soprano and a pit bull?

_The jewellery._


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## Arnold Schoenberg (Mar 1, 2009)

I detest what ltitle segments of opera and musicals I have heard. To me, good music is music that makes you feel an emotion that you enjoy to feel, even if is *anger*. It also has to sound good, or suit that mood. Operatic vocals and musicals just seem too bland and 'samey', not portraying the moods very well, in _my opinion_ anyway.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

> Operatic vocals and musicals just seem too bland and 'samey', not portraying the moods very well, in my opinion anyway.


There's some truth in that statement. You should try to listen to it really-really carefully and try to appreciate it. Took some time for me, but I can see how one might not like it at all.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Arnold Schoenberg said:


> I detest what *ltitle *segments of opera and musicals I have heard.


Well... what do you expect? You are only listening to fragments. It's like listening to three minutes of music somewhere in the middle of Strauss' Ein Heldenleben and being mad because you don't understand what the piece is about.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Arnold Schoenberg said:


> I detest what ltitle segments of opera and musicals I have heard. To me, good music is music that makes you feel an emotion that you enjoy to feel, even if is *anger*. It also has to sound good, or suit that mood. Operatic vocals and musicals just seem too bland and 'samey', not portraying the moods very well, in _my opinion_ anyway.


well maybe that's why, believe me opera can be just as or even more emotional than abstract music.

anywho. Some of my favorite musicals are

Oliver!
The Music Man
South Pacific


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

~~~~~~~~~~~~(((( bump ))))~~~~~~~~~~~​
I am watching the 2021 *Steven Spielberg/Tony Kushner *_West Side Story _film. Overall it is better than I expected, and the cast is fantastically talented at both singing and dancing, as well as carrying off the acting scenes.










From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
_West Side Story_ is a 2021 American musical romantic drama film directed and co-produced by *Steven Spielberg* from a screenplay by *Tony Kushner*. It is the second feature-length adaptation of the 1957 stage musical of the same name. It stars *Ansel Elgort *and *Rachel Zegler *in her film debut with *Ariana DeBose*, *David Alvarez*, *Mike Faist*, *Brian d'Arcy James*, *Corey Stoll*, and *Rita Moreno* in supporting roles. Moreno, who starred in the 1961 film adaptation, also served as an executive producer alongside Kushner. The film features music composed by *Leonard Bernstein* with lyrics by *Stephen Sondheim*.

The film entered development in 2014 at 20th Century Fox; Kushner began writing the screenplay in 2017. In January 2018, Spielberg was hired and casting began that September. *Justin Peck* choreographed the dance sequences. Principal photography occurred in New York and New Jersey; filming began in July 2019 and ran for two months.

Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~(((( bump ))))~~~~~~~~~~~​
> I am watching the 2021 *Steven Spielberg/Tony Kushner *_West Side Story _film. Overall it is better than I expected, and the cast is fantastically talented at both singing and dancing, as well as carrying off the acting scenes.
> 
> 
> ...


We went to the cinema on a big scream, very impressing, even the volume button was put tight, not to loud -soft. 
Pleasant experience,


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Rogerx said:


> We went to the cinema on a big scream, very impressing, even the volume button was put tight, not to loud -soft.
> Pleasant experience,


I thought the changes they made were an improvement, one in particular: placing the song "Somewhere" earlier, sung by their new character played by Rita Moreno (Valentina, the widow of drugstore owner Doc) and using "One Hand, One Heart" for the closing number for the death scene was much more effective, IMO.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*WILLY RUSSELL : Blood Brothers *(1983)






*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
A musical the story of which is a contemporary nature versus nurture plot, revolving around fraternal twins Mickey and Eddie, who were separated at birth, one subsequently being raised in a wealthy family, the other in a poor family. The different environments take the twins to opposite ends of the social spectrum, one becoming a councillor, and the other unemployed and in prison. They both fall in love with the same girl, causing a rift in their friendship and leading to the tragic death of both brothers.

A new production this year of this well-written musical with an interesting concept.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

After 35 years, _The Phantom of the Opera_ will close on Broadway in February. Carol Burnett (!) has proposed that when it does, the Majestic Theatre be renamed for Harold Prince. Prince's career as Broadway producer/director cannot really be matched. It started with _West Side Story _(producer only) and included, among many others, _Cabaret, _seven Sondheim shows (including _A Funny Thing _as producer only), _Evita _and _Phantom_ (as director only). Along the way he salvaged _Candide_. Add to that _She Loves Me_, the best musical RomCom and _Fiddler on the Roof_ (producer only)_._ And there were plenty of others.

So even if The Prince is a step down from The Majestic, I second the motion.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Musicals to me follow opera of the past more, than contemporary opera does. Have you heard the story, how some melodies of Nabucco leaked from the rehearsals, so on the day of the premiere, the public came to the theater several hours earlier to catch the best places ? And at the start of the opera, the whole theater smelled of sausage and onion, because those people needed to eat something in the meantime ? Can you imagine this happening with contemporary opera, by any of the living composer ? And what about a new Broadway musical ? Maybe even there, the golden age is behind, but it is still more likely.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> Musicals to me follow opera of the past more, than contemporary opera does. Have you heard the story, how some melodies of Nabucco leaked from the rehearsals, so on the day of the premiere, the public came to the theater several hours earlier to catch the best places ? And at the start of the opera, the whole theater smelled of sausage and onion, because those people needed to eat something in the meantime ? Can you imagine this happening with contemporary opera, by any of the living composer ? And what about a new Broadway musical ? Maybe even there, the golden age is behind, but it is still more likely.


The Golden Age for musicals is generally considered to have been from 1940-1959. The '60s are called the "post-golden age"and when Sondheim wrote seven of his best shows, and three duds, but he admitted that the golden age was pretty much over. The '70s had some good shows, but things began to deteriorate. 

The '80s, '90s, and 21st century shows increasingly became a hodge-podge of movie adaptations (mostly perpetrated by Alan Menken), rock song revues (both old and new), and fewer original book shows.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

SanAntone said:


> The Golden Age for musicals is generally considered to have been from 1940-1959. The '60s are called the "post-golden age"and when Sondheim wrote seven of his best shows, and three duds, but he admitted that the golden age was pretty much over. The '70s had some good shows, but things began to deteriorate.
> 
> The '80s, '90s, and 21st century shows increasingly became a hodge-podge of movie adaptations (mostly perpetrated by Alan Menken), rock song revues (both old and new), and fewer original book shows.


I can't imagine people not being attracted to the combination of drama and music. So what is the outlet now ? Film music ?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> I can't imagine people not being attracted to the combination of drama and music. So what is the outlet now ? Film music ?


No, I don't think film music is anything like musical theater. There are still some wonderful shows being done, just not on Broadway.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Musicals are not really my thing, but I notice new ones are produced, even in my area, by Czech and Slovak authors. I assume they are intended to appeal to the general public, not to cross the boundaries of music as we know it. For instance, I see ads about the Musical Frida (about Frida Kahlo) by a Slovak author Rudolf Geri. Maybe I should see it once...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> Musicals are not really my thing, but I notice new ones are produced, even in my area, by Czech and Slovak authors. I assume they are intended to appeal to the general public, not to cross the boundaries of music as we know it. For instance, I see ads about the Musical Frida (about Frida Kahlo) by a Slovak author Rudolf Geri. Maybe I should see it once...


IF you can, you should. IMO when done well, musical theater is the most interesting form involving music. Of course it can also sink to trite dreck, and often does.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I grew up in musical theatre, and am very familiar with the genre. Nowadays I'm the resident Musical Director for a *Gilbert & Sullivan* repertoire company, and there is really not all that large a difference between their output of fourteen comic operas between 1871 and 1896, and Musical Theatre. Yes, the subgenres of music have diversified, but the contours are almost the same.

Film musicals are an extension of stage musicals. 

I do have an issue with folks that think that the film versions of musicals are wholly representative of stage musicals. Way back in 2009, when this thread was started, someone was listing their favorite musicals as the film versions of *Jesus Christ Superstar* and *Sweeney Todd*.

*JC Superstar* was originally presented as an audio-only rock opera concept album in 1970, with the intent that the profits and publicity from the record might eventually be used to bring it to the stage. Ian Gillan sang the part of Jesus only on that original studio recording. The original Broadway production premiered roughly a year afterwards in 1971, and starred Ben Vereen as Judas, widely considered a bold move casting a black actor at the time. The West End production opened in 1972 and ran for eight years.

Sondheim's version of *Sweeney Todd* is possibly the best musical ever written for the stage. Some liberties were taken when bringing the show from stage to screen, most notably casting non-professional singers in the two leading roles, and eliminating many of the narrative Greek Chorus-type numbers sung by members of the ensemble. The latter is understandable, as the concept of a Greek Chorus is very much a construct that works well on stage, but not so much cinematically. The former change of casting "Big Name" actors is a Hollywood tradition that is a "hit or miss" thing. Sometimes those "big Names" aren't singers at all, and their singing voices are dubbed by actual singers.

I find it cringey though how Hollywood studios will spy a massively successful show, acquire the rights, and then change it so drastically that many of the elements that made the show successful on stage are jettisoned. This hubris often backfires, but is occasionally successful. 

One of the worst, IMO, is what happened to *Cabaret*: They actually wrote out, almost entirely, the two main characters, that of the older romantic leads, the Jewish greengrocer, and the Teutonic boardinghouse owner. Along with their excision went the half dozen songs they sang. 

Another travesty of the transition from stage to screen was *Grease*, originally an ensemble musical, where many supporting characters had songs. Most of those were eliminated, with the exception of the song *Greased Lightning*, which was given John Travolta's character, at his request.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I don't even consider film musicals in the same category as stage musicals, and always listen to the original cast album, and sometimes significant revivals. In the case of Anyone Can Whistle and Follies, the original cast albums were incomplete and later recordings are preferable.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This subject deserves the creation of a new and improved thread - Perhaps an all inclusive one in the "Broadway and Hollywood musicals" sense or narrowed down to strictly Broadway OSTs. Excluding Hollywood may present some difficulties in finding filmed "live" versions of the productions but there are some really fine "Ed Sullivan" variety show type clips that are available.

Pick an OST, post a photo of the album cover, a few words about the backstory, post selections highlighting the most memorable tunes, have Zach provide the play by play commentary, and there would exist a thread that was actually a credit to the subject matter without having to drag the dead weight of that embarrassingly inane first page of a long dead 13 year old thread around.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> This subject deserves the creation of a new and improved thread - Decide amongst yourselves whether you want to be all inclusive in the "Broadway and Hollywood musicals" sense or narrow it down to Broadway OSTs ...
> 
> ... and you have yourselves a thread that you can make your own without having to drag the dead weight of that first page of this thread around with you.


The first page is unfortunate.

But I would be interested in discussing also other musicals than Broadway and Hollywood. For instance, Italians have their Giuletta e Romeo by Cocciante - youtube finally offered it to me when I was searching obsessively for Bellini's and Vaccai's operas on the topic.

I also experienced a great wave of enthusiasm about the Czech musicals. Dracula, which premiered in 1995 and Krysař (The Pied Piper) premiered in 1996. That was a moment I believed the previous spirit around the opera of the past moved into musicals. All the people in my circles knew about these, it was very different from me being a lone wolf with the opera hobby. The plots were romantic opera-like, they covered the same need in people, IMO. And the melodies tuneful. By the way, Dracula was more similar to the Coppola movie than the Stoker novel, but hey, why not ? What's wrong about movie remakes (as somebody commented above) ?

The operas were also often using the most successful theatrical plays of the time. Bellini's librettist followed what is successful in Paris theaters, loosely translated the stuff into Italian, and that is the reason we even remember those plays existed. Also Puccini granted long life to some stories nobody would otherwise care for today.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I think the thread is fine, and encourage members to discuss any kind of musical they wish to in it. For myself *I will concentrate on stage musicals from the US*, trying to bring to our attention lesser known works which I think are above average.

But others can post about any kind of musical theater that they choose. What BBSVK just posted about would be interesting to me since I know little about the shows he describes.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> . . . .
> 
> Sondheim's version of *Sweeney Todd* is possibly the best musical ever written for the stage. Some liberties were taken when bringing the show from stage to screen, most notably casting non-professional singers in the two leading roles, and eliminating many of the narrative Greek Chorus-type numbers sung by members of the ensemble. The latter is understandable, as the concept of a Greek Chorus is very much a construct that works well on stage, but not so much cinematically. The former change of casting "Big Name" actors is a Hollywood tradition that is a "hit or miss" thing. Sometimes those "big Names" aren't singers at all, and their singing voices are dubbed by actual singers.
> 
> ...


I think the film versions of *Sweeney Todd* and *Cabaret *are interesting examples of a talented film director simply taking the material and re-envisioning it. Certainly the creative teams behind the original productions (other than *Sweeney*'s book writer) were alive and seemed to consent to the projects. Kander and Ebb wrote new songs. Sometimes re-envisioning works; sometimes it doesn't. It's done all the time on stage, perhaps not often as radically as with the film *Cabaret*. But Harold Prince's 1974 production of *Candide* - 90 minutes, immersive, with a new book and a heavily cut score (not even the overture) was the first successful production of that show. It was then re-expanded to a more traditional musical qua operetta form, maintaining the new book and some new music from the 1974 version.

n.b. I have never seen a full performance of any version of *Grease*.
n.b. 2 Several years ago, I saw *Prince of Broadway*, a tribute to Harold Prince. Overall, it was disappointing, but the recreated scenes from the original production of *Cabaret* reminded me how shocking that show was when I saw it in 1967.
n.b. 3 Just discovered (according to Wikipedia) that Hugh Wheeler, who rewrote the book for *Candide*, also rewrote the screenplay for *Cabaret*, adapting into the version we know. Wheeler won Tony awards not only for *Candide*, but also for *A Little Night Music *and *Sweeney Todd*.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> I don't even consider film musicals in the same category as stage musicals, and always listen to the original cast album, and sometimes significant revivals. In the case of Anyone Can Whistle and Follies, the original cast albums were incomplete and later recordings are preferable.


True. When the LP was the delivery product there were limitations as to the actual minutes that would fit on an LP. As a result, songs and verses dances and transitional music were cut, and often tempos were increased. The tempo issue served another purpose as well . . . music that was originally slower work well when there were actors to watch, but lost its excitement when there were no visuals to accompany that music. 

When the CD became the preferred format, the available time went from roughly 56 minutes (two 28 minute sides) to 78 minutes.

Now that digital streaming is the norm, it's no problem to include ALL of the music from a show, as there is no time limitation.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

jegreenwood said:


> I think the film versions of *Sweeney Todd* and *Cabaret *are interesting examples of a talented film director simply taking the material and re-envisioning it. Certainly the creative teams behind the original productions (other than *Sweeney*'s book writer) were alive and seemed to consent to the projects. Kander and Ebb wrote new songs. Sometimes re-envisioning works; sometimes it doesn't. It's done all the time on stage, perhaps not often as radically as with the film *Cabaret*. But Harold Prince's 1974 production of *Candide* - 90 minutes, immersive, with a new book and a heavily cut score (not even the overture) was the first successful production of that show. It was then re-expanded to a more traditional musical qua operetta form, maintaining the new book and some new music from the 1974 version.
> 
> n.b. I have never seen a full performance of any version of *Grease*.
> n.b. 2 Several years ago, I saw *Prince of Broadway*, a tribute to Harold Prince. Overall, it was disappointing, but the recreated scenes from the original production of *Cabaret* reminded me how shocking that show was when I saw it in 1967.
> n.b. 3 Just discovered (according to Wikipedia) that Hugh Wheeler, who rewrote the book for *Candide*, also rewrote the screenplay for *Cabaret*, adapting into the version we know. Wheeler won Tony awards not only for *Candide*, but also for *A Little Night Music *and *Sweeney Todd*.


*Grease*: Now that the film version is the version that most folks are familiar with, most stage productions insert some of the songs from the show: I recently was Musical Director for a production, and we added the songs *Grease, Hopelessly Devoted to You*, and *You're the One That I Want* (jettisoning the original show finale *I'm All Shook Up*). We did _NOT_ replace *All Alone At the Drive-In Movie* with the inferior song *Sandy* (the film version made the substitution as Travolta wasn't a talented enough singer to pull off the song). It costs a little extra to get permission to make the substitutions, and there are no pit band parts available - you have to create those yourself.

*Cabaret*'s transition from stage to screen is one where all the changes worked out fine for the producers. The film catapulted Liza Minelli to instant stardom. Funny, but they had to make Sally Bowles an American as Liza couldn't pull off a convincing English accent. So Cliff was changed from an American to an Englishman.

In addition to the elimination of the two leading characters, the show also lost another component . . . all of the songs were metaphorical commentary on the real life stuff that was happening outside the actual cabaret. 

So while the stage production of *Cabaret* broke awards records (winning eight Tony Awards from eleven nominations), the film version _also_ broke awards records (winning eight Oscars from ten nominations).

In direct contrast, one need only look to the 2019 film version of the acclaimed stage musical of *Cats*. *Cats* has received many international awards and nominations. The original London production was nominated for six Laurence Olivier Awards in 1981. Two years later, the original Broadway production won seven Tony Awards out of eleven nominations. The London production ran for 21 years and 8,949 performances, while the Broadway production ran for 18 years and 7,485 performances, making _Cats_ the longest-running musical in both theatre districts up until that time. 

However, the 2019 film version of *Cats* has been universally accepted as an embarrassment, a monstrosity even, and perhaps the worst film of the 2010s. It is estimated to have lost between $71 million and $114 million. 

There are several reasons for the film's failure, and included both artistic and technical choices. But the biggest challenge in bringing this to the cinematic universe is that it was conceived as a stage musical, and many of the theatrical elements that work so well in a live setting would have to be compromised in one way or another to work onscreen. If you want to see what all the excitement was all about there is a 1998 direct-to-video version that is basically a recreation of the live theatrical production, although there are some major edits made to accommodate television time restrictions. Several actual actors from the live versions are featured. All performers sing and dance their own performances live.

Of course, another of the many reasons the film version failed is that the show's plot is razor thin. It's basically a dance tour-de-force, made up of dance vignettes built around each individual character.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I think it is also worth noting that some of the least successful film adaptations involve are the leaden footed productions that try to track the stage version as closely as possible.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

My next series of posts will be about what are generally thought of as underrated musicals, or those which only received a short initial run or no run until revived long after their creation.

The first, is *Nymph Errant,* a musical with music and lyrics by *Cole Porter* and book by Romney Brent based upon the novel by James Laver. The musical was produced in London in 1933 and *received its US premiere in 1982*.






Written as a vehicle for *Gertrude Lawrence*, it has the distinction of being Cole Porter's favorite out of his scores. The controversial plot involved a young lady traversing the world intent upon losing her virginity, taking her from England to Switzerland, France, Italy, Turkey, Greece, the Arabian Desert and back to England. Despite the outstanding score, the show was not seen in New York until the early 80's, supposedly because of its quintessentially "English" style.

Featuring the Stephen Hill Singers. From the concert production on May 21, 1989 at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, London which was released by EMI Records. 

Overture (Orchestra)
Experiment - Mrs. Pratt and chorus
It's Bad for Me - Evangeline
Neauville-sur-Mer - Chorus
The Cocotte - Clarissa
How Could We Be Wrong? - Evangeline and chorus
They're Always Entertaining - Chorus
Georgia Sand - Henrietta and chorus
Nymph Errant - Evangeline and company
Ruins - Chorus
The Physician - Evangeline
Solomon - Haidee
Back to Nature with You - Evangeline and Ben
Plumbing - Ben
Si vous aimez les poitrines - Madeline and chorus
You're Too Far Away - Alexei
Sweet Nudity ‡ - Girls and Boys
Cazanova - Henrietta
Concert Finale:Experiment - Company


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*House of Flowers* is a musical by *Harold Arlen* (music and lyrics) and *Truman Capote* (lyrics and book). A short story of the same name was published in _Breakfast at Tiffany's_ (1958).

After a Philadelphia try-out, the show opened on Broadway on December 30, 1954 at the Alvin Theatre and played for 165 performances. The director was Peter Brook. The cast included *Pearl Bailey*, *Diahann Carroll*, *Juanita Hall*, *Ray Walston*, C*armen de Lavallade*, *Alvin Ailey* and *Geoffrey Holder*.










The story concerns two neighboring bordellos that battle for business in an idealized Haitian setting. One of the sex workers, Ottilie, turns down a rich lord to marry a poor mountain boy named Royal. Her madam plots to keep her by having Royal sealed in a barrel and tossed into the ocean. Royal escapes the watery death by taking refuge on the back of a turtle. The lovers are eventually married and live happily ever after.

Here's an excerpt from the original cast album, featuring Diahann Carroll who debuted in this show.






But my favorite version of this song is by *Nancy Wilson* on the classic album she did with *Cannonball Adderley.*


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

As great a songwriter as he was, Arlen did not share his contemporaries’ success on Broadway. Did pretty well in the movies though.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

My next nomination for underrated musical is

*Golden Boy* - a 1964 musical with a book by *Clifford Odets* and *William Gibson*, lyrics by *Lee Adams*, and music by *Charles Strouse*.






*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
Based on the 1937 play of the same name by Odets, it focuses on Joe Wellington, a young man from Harlem who, despite his family's objections, turns to prizefighting as a means of escaping his ghetto roots and finding fame and fortune. He crosses paths with Mephistopheles-like promoter Eddie Satin and eventually betrays his manager Tom Moody when he becomes romantically involved with Moody's girlfriend Lorna Moon.

Producer Hillard Elkins planned the project specifically for Sammy Davis, Jr. and lured Odets out of semi-retirement to write the book. The original play centered on Italian American Joe Bonaparte, the son of poverty-stricken immigrants with a disapproving brother who works as a labor organizer. Elkins envisioned an updated version that would reflect the struggles of an ambitious young African American at the onset of the Civil Rights Movement and include socially relevant references to the changing times.

One song from the score, "This Is the Life", later became a hit in a cover version recorded by Matt Monro. Art Blakey recorded a jazz version of the score in 1964 and Quincy Jones' Golden Boy (Mercury, 1964) featured three versions of the theme.
Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> *House of Flowers* is a musical by *Harold Arlen* (music and lyrics) and *Truman Capote* (lyrics and book). A short story of the same name was published in _Breakfast at Tiffany's_ (1958).
> 
> After a Philadelphia try-out, the show opened on Broadway on December 30, 1954 at the Alvin Theatre and played for 165 performances. The director was Peter Brook. The cast included *Pearl Bailey*, *Diahann Carroll*, *Juanita Hall*, *Ray Walston*, C*armen de Lavallade*, *Alvin Ailey* and *Geoffrey Holder*.
> 
> ...


Truly an obscure musical. Unfamiliar with it. Great cast though.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> I grew up in musical theatre, and am very familiar with the genre. Nowadays I'm the resident Musical Director for a *Gilbert & Sullivan* repertoire company, and there is really not all that large a difference between their output of fourteen comic operas between 1871 and 1896, and Musical Theatre . . .


It astounds me that I have musical directed so many shows that I've actually lost count. It's well over a hundred. I've even been called in as an emergency MD for shows that fired their original MDs.

I used to keep a list of shows I've MDd, but the list got so long, and it really barely matters much anymore, and I've not bothered updating it for ten years or so. Here's some of the shows I've MDd:

Mamma Mia!, Rent, Les Miserables, Me & My Girl, The Secret Garden, HMS Pinafore, Assassins, City Of Angels, Sweeney Todd the Demon Barber of Fleet Street, Evita, Into the Woods, Fiddler On The Roof, The Music Man, Little Shop Of Horrors, Big River, West Side Story, Camelot, Cabaret, Busytown, Jesus Christ Superstar, Joseph and The Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat, Anything Goes, Bye Bye Birdie, Kismet, You’re A Good Man Charlie Brown, I Do I Do, Ruthless, Batboy the Musical, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Cinderella, Mother Moral’s Bakery, 42nd Street, A Little Princess, Patience, The Sorceror, The Pirates Of Penzance, Mother Moral's Bakery, The Mikado, Iolanthe, Sullivan & Gilbert, The Threepenny Opera, Factwino, Chicago, The Drunkard, Pure As The Driven Snow, Ten Nights In A Barroom, Dracula The Musical, Grease, L’il Abner, Pinochio, The Gondoliers, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, The Spitfire Grill, The Wizard of Oz, Yeomen of the Guard, The Zoo, Trial By Jury, The Grand Duke, Princess Ida, Utopia Limited.

Many of these I've MDd more than once.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Truly an obscure musical. Unfamiliar with it. Great cast though.


And great director - Peter Brook.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Kean*
Musical Comedy in 2 Acts, a Prologue and 12 Scenes.

Book by *Peter Stone* from the comedy of the same name by *Jean-Paul Sartre*, based on a play by *Alexandre Dumas*. 
Music & Lyrics by: *George Forrest* and *Robert Wright*. 
Broadway Theatre, New York - Opened 2nd November, 1961, closed 20th January, 1962 (92 perfs)






*Synopsis*
_The swaggering adventures of noted Eighteenth Century actor Sir Edmund Kean come to breathtaking life in the Wright and Forrest musical Kean. Considered the greatest Shakespearean actor of his time, he was as well known for his rowdy behaviour offstage as he was for his stellar performances onstage._

_The plot of Kean finds the actor juggling two women in his life: the lovely Elena, married to the Danish Ambassador and Anna, a young aspiring actress. Complications ensue as Kean works to perfect his art and keep his paramours from finding out about each other._

_Originally a vehicle for the late, great musical actor Alfred Drake, Kean is filled with soaring melodies and graceful lyrics that could only come from the pens of Robert Wright and George "Chet" Forrest (Kismet, Magdalena, Anastasia Affaire, Grand Hotel: The Musical)._


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> It astounds me that I have musical directed so many shows that I've actually lost count. It's well over a hundred.


Of the 11 Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals, I've been involved in six (Pipe Dream, The King and I, Oklahoma!, Carousel, Cinderella, and a parody of South Pacific titled South Pathetic). Never did The Sound of Music, Allegro, State Fair, Me & Juliet, or Flower Drum Song.

Of the available Gilbert & Sullivan operettas (one has been lost in a fire), 14 of them I believe, I've been involved in productions of all of them, almost all of them more than once. I've been involved in well over a half dozen productions of *The Pirates of Penzance*.

From the Sondheim catalog I've been involved in 7 productions.

I have a 6 foot tall bookshelf full of show vocal scores.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Maybe with all that experience you could post about some shows which might have gone under the radar but are well worth knowing.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> Maybe with all that experience you could post about some shows which might have gone under the radar but are well worth knowing.


I was involved in the second production of Rodgers & Hammerstein's *Pipe Dream*. *1981*. After it had closed on Broadway in 1956, no one had ever asked to perform it (many of those associated met the Grim Reaper soon after the closing, so there were rumors of "a curse"), so the copies we received of all the original orchestral parts in a big old jumble. They had to dig it out of the archives and shipped it all to us without bothering to organize it.

It was a failure on Broadway for several reasons: One major issue was the source material - *John Steinbeck*'s *Sweet Thursday* and *Cannery Row*, stories about the bums and prostitutes on the Northern California coast. They loved the dark material, but then found themselves having to "clean it up", which diluted some of the dramatic content. Another was that they cast opera star *Helen Trauble* as the Madam of the Whorehouse. Lastly the music was uninspired, something I attribute to the lack of any local musical form to steal from: Face it, *The King & I *had the "oriental" vibe, *Oklahoma! *had that "rodeo" vibe, *The Sound Of Music* had that Austrian vibe, some songs from *Flower Drum Song* had "Chinese" modes (scales), and so on. Monterey Bay in California had no local musical identity from which to "borrow".


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Both _House of Flowers_ and _Pipe Dream_ have been presented in NYC by Encores, which for several decades has produced semi-staged versions of semi-forgotten Broadway shows. My parents subscribed for many years, and I would join them on occasion. For their 4-5 performance runs, they are able to attract major talent. I recall seeing a young Anne Hathaway do _Carnival._ They also use a full orchestra.

And of course sometimes they have a breakout success. The most notable is their 1996[?] production of _Chicago_. _Chicago _had a modest run in the 70s, but it was in the shadow of _A Chorus Line._ The Encores production transferred to Broadway where it has run for 25 years. That's three times as long as the run of _A Chorus Line_. There have been other transfers. 

Recently, they have decided to add better known shows, starting with _Into the Woods._ That show also transferred for a limited run earlier this year. It was the third time I'd seen the show, but the first time it worked for me.

Videos of portions of their productions are generally available on YouTube.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Another under-rated musical.

*Robert and Elizabeth* is a musical with music by *Ron Grainer* and book and lyrics by *Ronald Millar*. The story is based on an unproduced musical titled _The Third Kiss by Judge Fred G. Moritt_, which in turn was adapted from the play _The Barretts of Wimpole Street_ by Rudolph Besier. 

It is an operetta-style musical which tells the story of the romance and elopement of poets *Robert Browning *and* Elizabeth Barrett*. The original 1964 London production was a success, starring John Clements as Barrett, June Bronhill as Elizabeth and Keith Michell as Robert. Several revivals have followed.






The show was prevented from being produced on Broadway due to a copyright disagreement with the estate of Rudolph Besier, author of _The Barretts of Wimpole Street_, on which the story was partly based.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

My wife and I watched the 1993 TV film of _Gypsy_ starring *Bette Midler* as Mama Rose and *Peter Riegert* as Herbie, and an excellent ensemble cast.










The film features a score with music by *Jule Styne* and lyrics by *Stephen Sondheim*, and reuses the original orchestrations by Sid Ramin and Robert Ginzler. The musical numbers were choreographed by *Jerome Robbins*, who directed and choreographed the original Broadway production. Bob Mackie designed the costumes.

At the time it was widely praised by critics and the creators.

Full Cast:

Bette Midler as Rose Hovick
Cynthia Gibb as Louise Hovick
Elisabeth Moss as Baby Louise Hovick
Peter Riegert as Herbie Sommers
Jennifer Rae Beck as June Hovick
Lacey Chabert as Baby June Hovick
Edward Asner as Pop Charles Thompson
Linda Hart as Miss Mazeppa
Anna McNeely as Miss Electra
Christine Ebersole as Tessie Tura
Michael Jeter as Mr. Goldstone
Andrea Martin as Miss Cratchitt
Jeffrey Broadhurst as Tulsa
Tony Shalhoub as Uncle Jocko
Keene Curtis as Mr. Kringelien
Spencer Liff as Clarence
Rachel Sweet as Agnes/Amanda
Peter Lockyer as Yonkers
Michael Moore as L.A.
Patrick Boyd as Kansas
Terry Lindholm as Flagstaff
Gypsy Rose Lee (archive footage) as herself


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> My wife and I watched the 1993 TV film of _Gypsy_ starring *Bette Midler* as Mama Rose and *Peter Riegert* as Herbie, and an excellent ensemble cast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have that on video. I’ve also seen four revivals on Broadway. (I was a bit young for Ethel Merman.). Plus the Hollywood movie with Rosalind Russell and the Imelda Staunton production on streaming video.

A number of years ago New York Magazine hosted a round table discussion on the best musical of all time. Three shows tied for the top spot: “Guys & Dolls,” “Sweeney Todd,” and “Gypsy.”

Trivia note: On the original cast (Merman et al) album, papa’s few lines were spoken by Sondheim.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> I have that on video. I’ve also seen four revivals on Broadway. (I was a bit young for Ethel Merman.). Plus the Hollywood movie with Rosalind Russell and the Imelda Staunton production on streaming video.
> 
> A number of years ago New York Magazine hosted a round table discussion on the best musical of all time. Three shows tied for the top spot: “Guys & Dolls,” “Sweeney Todd,” and “Gypsy.”
> 
> Trivia note: On the original cast (Merman et al) album, papa’s few lines were spoken by Sondheim.


I've also read that _Gypsy_ is among the handful of titles which are thought of as among the best musicals. Sondheim tells the story of his involvement, which as a lyricist was not his goal at the time. Jerome Robbins, I think, had brought the project to him with the intention of Sondheim doing both music and lyrics. But Merman vetoed the idea, not wishing to intrust her career to a composer who had no track record. So Jule Styne was brought in, and as they say the rest is history.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

jegreenwood said:


> A number of years ago New York Magazine hosted a round table discussion on the best musical of all time. Three shows tied for the top spot: “Guys & Dolls,” “Sweeney Todd,” and “Gypsy.”


interesting choices.

Yes, Sweeney Todd may very well be the best musical of all time. The other two are quite good. Funny that Sondheim would be associated with two of their three #1s. 

There are some others that would also be in my *Top Ten*:

The Secret Garden
Into The Woods
Oklahoma!
Chicago
Cabaret
West Side Story
Les Miserables
The Pirates of Penzance (yeah, the Joseph Papp version)
A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder

*Honorable Mentions* (there's really dozens of these)
Wicked
Hamilton
The King and I
The Sound of Music
Evita
The Phantom of the Opera
Rent
Fiddler On the Roof
The Music Man
Little Shop of Horrors
In the Heights
Grease
Evita
Oliver!
Urinetown


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> I've also read that _Gypsy_ is among the handful of titles which are thought of as among the best musicals. Sondheim tells the story of his involvement, which as a lyricist was not his goal at the time. Jerome Robbins, I think, had brought the project to him with the intention of Sondheim doing both music and lyrics. But Merman vetoed the idea, not wishing to intrust her career to a composer who had no track record. So Jule Styne was brought in, and as they say the rest is history.


Merman was coming off a flop called “Happy Hunting.” My dad had the original cast recording, and I listened to it enough times as a child that one song remains an ear worm until this day. Earlier this year I streamed the cast album, which turned out to be more appealing to a 7 year old than to a 70 year old.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

RIP Angela Lansbury. I got to see her on stage 5 times (twice in _Sweeney Todd_). And her performance in _The Manchuria Candidate_ has stayed with me for many years.


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