# Turandot question



## johnnysc (Aug 3, 2015)

I have this cd with just the cover as shown (no libretto). I would like to know who is singing on track 11..... Ah! Per L'ultima Volta!

Bjoerling or Tozzi?

Thank you.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

johnnysc said:


> View attachment 81876
> 
> 
> I have this cd with just the cover as shown (no libretto). I would like to know who is singing on track 11..... Ah! Per L'ultima Volta!
> ...


_Ah per l'ultima volta_ us sung by Timur, so that would be Tozzi. The next line is sung by Liu (Tebaldi) and then the ministers (Ping, Pang and Pong). Calaf (Bjoerling) enters into the ensemble with the words _Son io che domando pieta_.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Oh, I was all set to post the answer's Calaf.

N.


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## johnnysc (Aug 3, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> _Ah per l'ultima volta_ us sung by Timur, so that would be Tozzi. The next line is sung by Liu (Tebaldi) and then the ministers (Ping, Pang and Pong). Calaf (Bjoerling) enters into the ensemble with the words _Son io che domando pieta_.


This is Disc 1 track 11. From the beginning of the track to about the 3 minute mark it seems only two male vocals (no Tebaldi) interchanging lines. I would like to know who is singing at the beginning of the track. Unless I got the wrong track listing? The total length of the track is 8:42. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

johnnysc said:


> This is Disc 1 track 11. From the beginning of the track to about the 3 minute mark it seems only two male vocals (no Tebaldi) interchanging lines. I would like to know who is singing at the beginning of the track. Unless I got the wrong track listing? The total length of the track is 8:42. Sorry for the confusion.


Greg's description of the dialogue should be enough of a guide. Alternately, the interchange is between a bass-baritone (Timur) and a tenor (Calaf), which for your purpose should work to tell who is who. The libretto itself is available online, if you want: but Ricordi seems to have a copyright claim, so I won't post an actual link


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

johnnysc said:


> This is Disc 1 track 11. From the beginning of the track to about the 3 minute mark it seems only two male vocals (no Tebaldi) interchanging lines. I would like to know who is singing at the beginning of the track. Unless I got the wrong track listing? The total length of the track is 8:42. Sorry for the confusion.


It sounds like you have the wrong track listing, it doesn't make sense if the track is 8:42 and you don't hear a woman's voice until 3 mins in.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> It sounds like you have the wrong track listing, it doesn't make sense if the track is 8:42 and you don't hear a woman's voice until 3 mins in.
> 
> N.


I don't have that recording, so don't know what track you are referring to. I was just going from the libretto, which is as I said.

TIMUR Ah! per l'ultima volta!
LIÙ Vinci il fascino orribile!
I MINISTRI La vita è così bella!
TIMUR Abbi di Liù pietà!
LIÙ Abbi di Liù pietà! Signore, pietà!
I MINISTRI Non perderti così! Afferralo, portalo via! Trattieni quel pazzo furente! Folle tu sei! La vita è bella!
TIMUR Abbi di me, di me pietà! Non posso staccarmi da te!
Non voglio staccarmi da te! Pietà! Mi getto ai tuoi piedi gemente! Abbi pietà! Non voler la mia morte!
LIÙ Signore, pietà! Pietà di Liù, Signore!
IL PRINCIPE IGNOTO Son io che domando pietà! Nessuno più ascolto! Io vedo il suo fulgido volto! La vedo! mi chiama! Essa è là! Il tuo perdono chiedo come colui che non sorride più!

etc.


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## johnnysc (Aug 3, 2015)

The Conte said:


> It sounds like you have the wrong track listing, it doesn't make sense if the track is 8:42 and you don't hear a woman's voice until 3 mins in.
> 
> N.


Yep.....it turns out I was looking at the track list for the Living Stereo release.


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## johnnysc (Aug 3, 2015)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Greg's description of the dialogue should be enough of a guide. Alternately, the interchange is between a bass-baritone (Timur) and a tenor (Calaf), which for your purpose should work to tell who is who. The libretto itself is available online, if you want: but Ricordi seems to have a copyright claim, so I won't post an actual link


I'm guessing the first voice is a bass-baritone so Tozzi it is. I think lol. I'm looking forward to discovering for sure. I really enjoyed this opera without knowing the story. I only know I enjoyed the music and vocals. Is that strange for one with a beginner's interest in opera?  I am going to check out other versions of Turandot hopefully that will include the libretto.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​Not to be missed :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> ​Not to be missed :tiphat:


I don't think the OP was asking which was the best recording to go for.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

johnnysc said:


> This is Disc 1 track 11. From the beginning of the track to about the 3 minute mark it seems only two male vocals (no Tebaldi) interchanging lines. I would like to know who is singing at the beginning of the track. Unless I got the wrong track listing? The total length of the track is 8:42. Sorry for the confusion.


Track 11 on my edition of this recording is 8:43 so I suspect you have the same one; it is Ping Pang and Pong from Act Two, Ho una casa nell'Honan. Sereni, de Palma, and Frascati.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

johnnysc said:


> I'm guessing the first voice is a bass-baritone so Tozzi it is. I think lol. I'm looking forward to discovering for sure. I really enjoyed this opera without knowing the story. I only know I enjoyed the music and vocals. Is that strange for one with a beginner's interest in opera?  I am going to check out other versions of Turandot hopefully that will include the libretto.


You really can't do much better than the Leinsdorf that you already have. Bjorling is bar none my favorite Calaf, Tebaldi is one of the finest Lius, and Nilsson is my a fantastic Turandot, steely and regal. Leinsdorf is surprisingly excellent in this opera and leads an outstanding ensemble recording here.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> You really can't do much better than the Leinsdorf that you already have. Bjorling is bar none my favorite Calaf, Tebaldi is one of the finest Lius, and Nilsson is my a fantastic Turandot, steely and regal. Leinsdorf is surprisingly excellent in this opera and leads an outstanding ensemble recording here.


It seems that's is open for debate 
I have the Metha any day of the weak , hands down :tiphat:


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Pugg said:


> It seems that's is open for debate
> I have the Metha any day of the weak , hands down :tiphat:


*shrug* Mehta and Pavarotti are hopelessly crude. But de gustibus.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> *shrug* *Mehta and Pavarotti are hopelessly crude*. But de gustibus.


Sorry, but you must be listening to a different version to the one I have. :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Sorry, but you must be listening to a different version to the one I have. :lol:


​


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don't fight! Turandot has fared well on recordings and several versions are excellent. I love the Leinsdorf for all four leads, with Bjorling topping the competetion (IMO) in a role he never even sang in the theater. The Mehta is uniformly well-cast and great-sounding. Nilsson is great with Corelli on EMI, but that high-octane-and-decibel partnership is most sensational in several live recordings (I have one under Gavazzeni with Galina Vishnevskaya the most intense and moving Liu imaginable). The old mono Callas deserves more attention than it gets, with interesting casting (Schwarzkopf as Liu) and atmospheric conducting. Almost everyone on all these recordings is very good.

Something for everyone here, eh? I own three of them. Don't fight!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Don't fight! Turandot has fared well on recordings and several versions are excellent. I love the Leinsdorf for all four leads, with Bjorling topping the competetion (IMO) in a role he never even sang in the theater. The Mehta is uniformly well-cast and great-sounding. Nilsson is great with Corelli on EMI, but that high-octane-and-decibel partnership is most sensational in several live recordings (I have one under Gavazzeni with Galina Vishnevskaya the most intense and moving Liu imaginable). The old mono Callas deserves more attention than it gets, with interesting casting (Schwarzkopf as Liu) and atmospheric conducting. Almost everyone on all these recordings is very good.
> 
> Something for everyone here, eh? I own three of them. Don't fight!


The Nilsson/Corelli/Moffo live recording with Stokowski is another good one, and one that's available in a very good Pristine Classical remaster. Callas and Schwarzkopf are also very fine, although some might quibble with Schwarzkopf's not exactly idiomatic performance. Fernandi also is far from the most memorable Calaf.

Didn't mean to start a fight--just think it was ludicrous to claim that the Mehta is *much* better than the Leinsdorf


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> The Nilsson/Corelli/Moffo live recording with Stokowski is another good one, and one that's available in a very good Pristine Classical remaster. Callas and Schwarzkopf are also very fine, although some might quibble with Schwarzkopf's not exactly idiomatic performance. Fernandi also is far from the most memorable Calaf.
> 
> Didn't mean to start a fight--just think *it was ludicrous to claim that the Mehta is *much* better than the Leinsdorf*


Agree completely. Nilsson/Bjorling/Tebaldi/Tozzi is a cast we'd kill to hear nowadays (especially after what we heard from the Met a few weeks ago.)


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I have a soft spot for the Sutherland Pavarotti set, But possibly Molinari-Pradelli's Nilson Corelli Scotto Is the one I go to most.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I know Turandot is the ice princess but Nilsson seems to be dipped in liquid nitrogen! With Sutherland at least you do have the prospect of a thaw!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

And don't forget the Karajan version. I know Ricciarelli is over-parted as Turandot but what an exposition of the orchestral score!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I know Turandot is the ice princess but Nilsson seems to be dipped in liquid nitrogen! With Sutherland at least you do have the prospect of a thaw!


:lol:

If I were dipped in liquid nitrogen, Bjorling and Tebaldi would thaw me faster than Pavarotti and Caballe.

It's good that Birgit can't hear you say such ungentlemanly things. But I'm sure her famous barbed wit would have put you in your place.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> :lol:
> 
> If I were dipped in liquid nitrogen, Bjorling and Tebaldi would thaw me faster than Pavarotti and Caballe.
> 
> It's good that Birgit can't hear you say such ungentlemanly things. But I'm sure her famous barbed wit would have put you in your place.


She had her joustings with Karajan. At one rehearsal her pearls snapped and as he helped her to pick them up he said, "Are these the priceless pearls you bought with your La Scala earnings?" to which she replied, "No they are cheap imitation ones I bought with the fees you pay!" 
Karajan once described her as "Scarpia without makeup!"
Christa Ludwig said once that her style of voice projection was not really Karajan's tipple. She added: "And as Birgit had quite a mouth on her it was never going to be a marriage made in heaven!" :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tales of the Nilsson/Karajan encounters make hilarious reading. SeattleOperaFan's avatar shows one of them: Nilsson made her statement about the murkiness of Karajan's _Ring_ staging by showing up for rehearsal wearing a miner's helmet.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Tales of the Nilsson/Karajan encounters make hilarious reading. SeattleOperaFan's avatar shows one of them: Nilsson made her statement about the murkiness of Karajan's _Ring_ staging by showing up for rehearsal wearing a miner's helmet.


Karajan was apparently notorious for the darkness of his stage and endless lighting rehearsals. As someone once said: "I could have got it that dark with one rehearsal!"


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Karajan was apparently notorious for the darkness of his stage and endless lighting rehearsals. As someone once said: "I could have got it that dark with one rehearsal!"


His La Scala *Lucia di Lammermoor* with Callas was also very dark apparently. Callas loved making music with him but hated the production. Funnily enough Zeffirelli later said he really liked Karajan's approach. For the Mad Scene Karajan dimmed all the lights on the stage, put a follow spot on Callas and let her do the rest. According to Zeffirelli, with a Callas that's all you had to do.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> His La Scala *Lucia di Lammermoor* with Callas was also very dark apparently. Callas loved making music with him but hated the production. Funnily enough Zeffirelli later said he really liked Karajan's approach. For the Mad Scene Karajan dimmed all the lights on the stage, put a follow spot on Callas and let her do the rest. According to Zeffirelli, with a Callas that's all you had to do.


As has been said a conductor of Karajan's talent deserved a better producer than Karajan! But compared with some of the daft nonsense we see passing for operatic production Karajan's were stella. At least he tried to reproduce what the composer intended.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> As has been said a conductor of Karajan's talent deserved a better producer than Karajan! But compared with some of the daft nonsense we see passing for operatic production Karajan's were stella. At least he tried to reproduce what the composer intended.


In some ways that *Lucia* was quite revolutionary.



> (Karajan asked) Nicola Benois to execute the decor but the designer begged off when he heard the conductor's unorthodox scenic concept. Explaining that he felt uncomfortable with such ideas, Benois proposed Gianni Ratto for the job. Under Karajan's constant surveillance, Ratto turned out batre, stylised sets with moody, dim lighting and murky rear projections . Benois remembers that Karajan demanded and got an additional number of lighting rehearsals to achieve the gloom he sought.
> 
> Callas by John Ardoin and Gerald Fitzgerald












PS Sorry to derail the thread with a discussion of Karajan's producing techniques.

Now back to Turandot.


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