# Moi vs. Vu



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Just like Chicago VS. Blood Sweat and Tears and Moody Blues VS. ELO but meater..... in oh so many ways.

MOI - Mothers of Invention (or just Mothers) and VU Velvet Underground (or Velvets) with or without Nico..

Now these bands were both produced by Tom Wilson (who first signed them both) and were both popular at the same time and both tried on outlandish music for the time. And more importantly Frank and Lou hated each other....

For the unintitate (if there are any?) straight Wiki version below - don't want to influence anyone - I like both bands but for different versions.

MOI - The Mothers of Invention were an American rock band from California that served as the backing musicians for Frank Zappa, a self-taught composer and performer whose diverse musical influences led him to create music that was often impossible to categorize[citation needed]. Their work is marked by the use of sonic experimentation, innovative album art, and elaborate live shows.

Originally an R&B band called The Soul Giants, the band's original lineup included Ray Collins, David Coronado, Ray Hunt, Roy Estrada and Jimmy Carl Black. Zappa was asked to take over as the band's guitarist following a fight between Collins and the band's original guitarist. Zappa insisted that the band perform original material, changing their name to The Mothers. Founded in 1964, the band first became popular playing in California's underground music scene in the late 1960s. Under Zappa's leadership, the band signed to Verve Records, releasing a début album, Freak Out! (1966), with a lineup which consisted of Zappa, Collins, Black, Estrada and Elliot Ingber.

Under Zappa's leadership and a fluctuating lineup, the band released a series of acclaimed albums, including Absolutely Free, We're Only in It for the Money and Uncle Meat, before being disbanded by Zappa in 1969. In 1970, Zappa formed a new lineup of The Mothers which included Ian Underwood, Jeff Simmons, George Duke, Aynsley Dunbar and singers Mark Volman and Howard Kaylan, formerly of The Turtles, who were credited as The Phlorescent Leech & Eddie for contractual reasons. Later adding another ex-Turtle, bassist Jim Pons, this lineup lasted until the end of 1971, when Zappa was injured by an audience member during a concert.

VU- The Velvet Underground was an American rock band formed in New York City. First active from 1964 to 1973, their best-known members were Lou Reed and John Cale, who both went on to find success as solo artists. Although experiencing little commercial success while together, the band is often cited by many critics as one of the most important and influential groups of the 1960s.[1] In a 1982 interview Brian Eno made the often repeated statement that while the first Velvet Underground album may have sold only 30,000 copies in its early years, "everyone who bought one of those 30,000 copies started a band."[2]

Andy Warhol managed the Velvet Underground and it was the house band at his studio, the Factory, and his Exploding Plastic Inevitable events. The provocative lyrics of some of the band's songs gave a nihilistic outlook to some of their music.[3][4]

Their 1967 debut album, The Velvet Underground & Nico (which featured German singer Nico, with whom the band collaborated), was named the 13th Greatest Album of All Time, and the "most prophetic rock album ever made" by Rolling Stone in 2003.[5][6] In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked the band No. 19 on its list of the "100 Greatest Artists of All Time".[7] The band was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1996, by Patti Smith.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ah, Velvet Underground! "When I put a spike into my vein, I tell you things just aren't the same..." Pleasant stuff.

But why did you leave out the Fugs? A massive oversight. Check the lyrics to their "Wide, Wide River."


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

There are many I could have added to the mix- that could be another thread working out that list. 

How about Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band for instance.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Was there ever any doubt what I would pick?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Tom Wilson didn't really produce any Mothers albums. Everyone knows FZ was in charge. But thanks to Wilson for giving them a shot. Nobody would do this today, which is why current popular music rather loathsome.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> Was there ever any doubt what I would pick?


No doubt at all!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Tom Wilson didn't really produce any Mothers albums. Everyone knows FZ was in charge. But thanks to Wilson for giving them a shot. Nobody would do this today, which is why current popular music rather loathsome.


Very true - but it is interesting (and thank goodness he gave them a shot), that he had both MOI and VU.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm not a huge fan of either of them, but I have three Mothers of Invention albums from my college days, and Zappa is from Cucamonga, which was part of my stomping grounds back in the day, so that points in their favor. But they had an almost juvenile fascination with amorality, which doesn't resonate with me. (I know, that's how a lot of kids were in the early '60s).

Velvet Underground, from what I've heard, seems to have reflected a spiritual development in the albums, which would tilt the scales. When they sing of depravity, it's not to revel in it but to reveal what's already out there. 

Between the two, if I had to (I don't really care for either one these days), from a musical standpoint, I'd pick the Mothers. They covered a wide range of music, from rock to big band (America Drinks and Goes Home was so jazz-like, Woody Herman recorded it); made either the first or one of the first concept albums; had a soprano sax player (okay, that's a big deal to me); and even paid tribute to Edgard Varese. 

But as I said, I don't spend much time with either these days.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've never listened to a VU album. A friend gave me a DVD documentary on Nico, which I found very depressing.

I suppose I'm drawn more to clear-headed, sober artists.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Velvet Underground is more decadent and romantic, so that's the pick for me.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

starthrower said:


> I've never listened to a VU album. A friend gave me a DVD documentary on Nico, which I found very depressing.
> 
> I suppose I'm drawn more to clear-headed, sober artists.


I really like Nico's solo album _Desertshore_, it's much more interesting than anything I've heard from VU.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> I really like Nico's solo album _Desertshore_, it's much more interesting than anything I've heard from VU.


Nico's solo stuff is very cool, all right!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm far more familiar with the Velvets' work so it would be unfair to vote. I'm a fan of Nico's first four albums as well: The Marble Index and Desertshore in particular are desolate masterpieces with Nico on top of her Ice Maiden game. Three cheers for Tom Wilson for signing both groups to Verve - perhaps Elektra and ESP would have been the only other labels brave (or enlightened?) enough to take a chance on either.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

It has to be VU for me
I'm not that clued up on the mothers


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## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

The Velvet Underground by a slight margin. Though I think the Mothers were more consistently good, the first two VU albums are on a level of their own.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

So its MOI by one over VU at this stage - close race 5 to 4


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I know there are folk who don't really like the post-Cale Velvets output but the two albums helmed almost single-handedly by Lou Reed proved to me what a great songwriter he is - the material was often less spiky but still contained more of its fair share of rich imagery and menace. For what it's worth, this would be my 'best of' from the gentler stuff in chronological order:

1. Sunday Morning
2. Femme Fatale
3. I'll Be Your Mirror
4. Lady Godiva's Operation
5. Here She Comes Now
6. Candy Says
7. Pale Blue Eyes
8. Jesus
9. After Hours
10. Ocean (demo version with Cale on organ)
11. Oh! Sweet Nothin'
12. I'm Sticking With You


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Velvet Underground but why did you make me choose you *******?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ Because I'm such a nice guy (in a dress) - your right was relatively easy for me but it did make me think about it........:tiphat::devil:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

The Mothers are still in the lead......... by 2!


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

The west coast Mothers, full-of-content maximalists, with the European art music dna via Zappa's Varèse love.
The east coast Velvets, stripped down and daring to cruise close to where it's not art at all, just like American painting from Ab-Ex to Warhol pop.
I agree with MJongo.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

More thoughts on the MOI vs Vu debate - the reason I raised them for discussion was as they both spanned the same time period in rock, were experimental, were not widely received initially and became so well known, it seemed a good idea
One East coast the other west coast and during the sixties Zappa's Mothers of Invention and The Velvet Underground with Lou Reed and John Cale were competitors for the promotion budget of MGM, for which both groups were contracted.

Zappa and Lou also had ongoing feud for many years with quotes such as:

"Frank Zappa is the most untalented musician I've ever heard. He's a two-bit pretentious academic, He can't play rock 'n roll because he's a loser...". Lou Reed

On the tapes for Zappa's "We're only in it for the money" The Velvet Underground got mentioned via a musician complaining that he has to play Zappa's creations and to make matters worse, he has to play with the Velvet Undergroud the next day, "just as ****** a group"


The reason they differ is that they are so similar

Both: 
- started their careers as Doo *** producers
- fused rock and roll with, shall we say, highbrow influences
- saw their groups as extensions of themselves
- had formidable female members in their groups (Ruth and Nico)
- made less successful records of "electronic music" (e.g. Franceco and Metal Machine)
- had dancers in their act
- had deep, idiosyncratic voices
- would re-arrange their songs throughout their career
- significantly changed their sound in the early 70's after breaking up their groups
- were produced by Tom Wilson
- were known for having bizarre fashion sense.
- had bass players who alienated their groups (Scott Thunes and John Cale)

I think the fact that they are so similar, is why a feud existed between them also.

Interestingly Lou Reed inducted Frank Zappa into The Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame!
"I respected him and I know he respected me," said Reed after comparing Zappa to Andy Warhol
actually, Frank admired Lou as a songwriter; Femme Fatale and All Tomorrow's Parties were two of Frank's favorites!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

At first I thought this was going to be a French grammar question...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

"He can't play rock 'n roll because he's a loser."

Hahahaha I always loved this quote.

This is tough. VU are influential, but they weren't THAT subversive or groundbreaking. They just convinced a lot of people they were by wearing shades indoors, writing frankly about drugs and sadomasochism, hanging around with modern art fart sniffers and wannabe bohemians, etc. Much more musically interesting stuff was going on in Germany.

But Zappa never wrote Sister Ray, so I gotta give it to them. Also Venus in Furs is one of the most haunting songs ever.

Zappa was nice but he never even tried for stuff like "haunting".


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2013)

Tristan said:


> At first I thought this was going to be a French grammar question...


And on that basis, your choice would be....?

So would mine. Brought up on The Mothers like some are brought up on Mozart. I've never thought to myself, "Who are these Velvets, and why haven't I troubled myself to listen to them?"


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

its now MOI by three over VU at this stage - still close race 10 to 7, with 3 for neither


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Was Zappa's music supposed to have been subversive and groundbreaking? I found it obnoxious. I do love Varèse, though.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Was Zappa's music supposed to have been subversive and groundbreaking? I found it obnoxious.


Are you referring to the music or the lyrics? And what did you listen to?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Are you referring to the music or the lyrics? And what did you listen to?


The music. I listened to the album: Uncle Meat. I am not a big fan of John Zorn (actually, I don't even know what to think of Zorn) but I think he's a better version of Zappa.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't know what you find obnoxious about Uncle Meat? There is a lot of wonderful music there. Of course, there's all kinds of stuff from modern composition, jazz improv, to doo-*** on that album, so it may not be everyone's cuppa tea. 

I never thought of Zorn as a "version of Zappa". Yes, Zorn is ambitious, and he cranks out a ton of material, but I don't hear the depth and breadth, or compositional sophistication in his music that I hear in Zappa's.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

MOI increasing their lead over VU- now 12 to 8


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Still looking good


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

VU for me. Sorry Eddy.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

The 3 male library assistants I was training gave me ‘VU & Nico’ as an engagement present in 1969. Unlike anything that had gone before, changed my life! Never liked Nico but have been a life-long devoted John Cale fan.


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