# Slow movement of Haydn's 64th - Most revolutionary 18th-century work?



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

I've long enjoyed Haydn's 64th symphony, mostly the first and last movements, but tended to zone out during the Largo, which just seemed kind of unfocused with too many weird pauses to sustain interest. But Danuta Mirka

http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/337283/1/337283 Mirka 35 (3).pdf

points out that the movement is much stranger than I'd noticed - it's written without a single cadence. Given the overwhelming importance of cadences to 18th century music, it's remarkable that something like this would be accomplished - or even attempted - in 1775. I for one haven't come across another piece doing anything like this (have you?).

After hitting the 6/4 chord on its way to its first half cadence, the music drops out, and as the seemingly delayed half cadence comes in after a rest, it turns out to be instead an upbeat to the second phrase. Haydn continues this game in different ways, always making the listener fill in the missing cadences while he skips over them in silence.

This especially interests me because I had already noticed Haydn's extending and twisting of cadences in the first movement, where sometimes one cadence will enter right on top of another, sending the music off from the key it was about to cadence in to land in an entirely different one.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on Haydn's intent with this (above and beyond Mirka's and other's discussion of its potential theatrical lineage). Was Haydn really thinking ahead to the kind of music Wagner would be writing almost a century later? Or was it just another one-off stunt for him? And might Symphony 64 as a whole have something to say about cadences?

Can't find a clip of just the second movement, but it starts at around 9:00 in this one.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I've noticed how quirky this movement was - I think this was Haydn 'joking around' and playing with the audience, he loved doing that .


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks for pointing this out. I've missed that in previous hearings. 

I'd research further, but in trying to pull the recording out from the complete symphonies box set, all two bazillion CDs spilled on the floor, and my OCD is kicking in; I can't do much else until I get them all picked up and sorted in the right order.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> Thanks for pointing this out. I've missed that in previous hearings.
> 
> I'd research further, but in trying to pull the recording out from the complete symphonies box set, all two bazillion CDs spilled on the floor, and my OCD is kicking in; I can't do much else until I get them all picked up and sorted in the right order.


You'll defeat the OCD in time, no worries. Seems to be a common thing these days, but it can definitely go away.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've noticed how quirky this movement was - I think this was Haydn 'joking around' and playing with the audience, he loved doing that .


I had the same thoughts as you


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've noticed how quirky this movement was - I think this was Haydn 'joking around' and playing with the audience, he loved doing that .


Yes. The six who were still awake.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

I get that this was a stunt, Haydn defying expectations and seeing how far he could carry it, though in this case I wouldn't so much call it "joking around," as there's not much here that would raise a smile - it's more discomfiting and disconcerting than it is risible, and the main "gag" doesn't immediately strike the ear as so many of Haydn's other ones do. But I'm wondering if there's more than the standard play with the audience, given, for example, how attenuated the cadences are in the first movement. I have to say, I haven't noticed much in the 3rd or 4th movements that carries the idea forward, so it could still be just a wild coincidence.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes. The six who were still awake.


Ah, Symphony 64, I'm going to have to listen to this puppy soon. And I'm 100% sure I'll enjoy it greatly .


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Funny said:


> I get that this was a stunt, Haydn defying expectations and seeing how far he could carry it, though in this case I wouldn't so much call it "joking around," as there's not much here that would raise a smile - it's more discomfiting and disconcerting than it is risible, and the main "gag" doesn't immediately strike the ear as so many of Haydn's other ones do. But I'm wondering if there's more than the standard play with the audience, given, for example, how attenuated the cadences are in the first movement. I have to say, I haven't noticed much in the 3rd or 4th movements that carries the idea forward, so it could still be just a wild coincidence.


Funny, this symphony does seem to have been special for Haydn, since the 'Tempora mutantur' nickname stems from a Latin proverb he left on the manuscript to the symphony. The movement certainly is very eccentric, but I wouldn't call it the most revolutionary 18th-century piece. I think Haydn's most 'revolutionary' and unusual works were his Op. 20 quartets, the Sturm und Drang symphonies, Op. 33, The Seven Last Words and also The Creation and the Seasons, although the latter was published in the 19th century.


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