# TC Hall of Fame 2



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

A couple changes this time, so *please re-read the rules.* First, I wanted to see how participation would differ if I started it in the polls area so here it is.

Rules:

Classical Music Piece Nominations: Nominate any piece of music you like, remember though *this should be a piece that you believe fits the criteria for something that would belong in your own personal "hall of fame." You are nominating the piece you feel is most deserving of that.*There is no length limit, but to be decent you might not want to nominate something like Feldman's String Quartet No. 2 or the Ring Cycle.

PM me your nomination - one per person - and include: Piece title, composer & year (if applicable). Keep your nomination a secret until the unveiling of the pieces. If you like, you can also add a recording you would like everyone to use (preferably on YouTube). *You are also encouraged to send a few discussion questions that you might like to point out/explore with the other participants during that piece's featured time.* (see "During the HoF" for more info).

Open Door Policy: For one week after the reveal of the piece nominations, I will be taking new members.

Length of HoF: There will be approximately*two* days of listening time per nomination, so if there are 10
nominations the HoF will be about *20* days long. The deadline to finish will be posted after the HoF starts.

During the HoF: Everyone listens to the nominated pieces and will discuss them in this thread. *You are given the option to write a few sentences on each piece, but it is not required. Instead, every two days a new piece will be "featured" for discussion. Feel free to participate in the discussion and write your thoughts on it then.*

Afterwards: Once you have listened to and/or written about each piece, send me a list ranking every piece nominated in the Hall of Fame. After I have received every ballot I will post the results and the winner ("inductee").

Note: If you've listened to a piece recently or have heard it many times you can skip listening to it, otherwise you have to listen to all nominated pieces.

Requesting help to locate pieces: If you have trouble locating a nomination make a post and ask for help. In general, if you nominate something make sure it is available on YouTube.

Dropouts: Members who don't finish will be disqualified, however, *their nomination will stay in the HoF so others can vote on it.*Please make sure you have the time to complete this, it helps to start listening to the pieces right away so you don't have a bunch of pieces to listen to at the end. If for any reason you do need to drop out, absolutely let me know you can't finish.

Any questions? If not, you can send me your nominations over PM please, I will do a reveal of them in about a week (that is, if we get enough participation, guess we'll see).

There is only one ineligible piece right now:
*Bach - The Well-Tempered Clavier*
Please do not nominate, as it just won the 1st HoF.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Little bump. Three participants currently.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Four people have joined now! If we reach eight, I’ll follow through with it, if not then I’ll close/pause the thread.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

So
A) Is it the title? Do people just see it and not care to click/read through the rules?

B) Is it the fact that people want to explore new music rather than join something they feel will have less obscure stuff?

C)Is it just a plain boring idea?

I know I'm making an *** of myself on these HoF threads by constantly replying to myself, bumping it, etc. It's just that I felt we could get more than four people to join, especially with the tweaked rules. I'm not as good with these rules/games/managing as Art Rock or Bulldog, so if it's the fact that I'm running it that makes people hesitant that's fine. I just don't understand what about the idea itself it is that turns people away.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Since I'm one of the four who joined, I may not be the person to answer your questions... but wrt your running it, I don't think that's an issue. There were a few potential improvements in that respect in the first edition, but you asked for feedback and reacted on it. As you know, I prefer a set-up with less familiar pieces, but that is not the Hall of Fame idea.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Since I'm one of the four who joined, I may not be the person to answer your questions... but wrt your running it, I don't think that's an issue. There were a few potential improvements in that respect in the first edition, but you asked for feedback and reacted on it. As you know, I prefer a set-up with less familiar pieces, but that is not the Hall of Fame idea.


Yeah, I actually really like that you set up the companion HoF, so we can run a more obscure one and a more well-known one at the same time. However, you may be right that most people (here at least) generally don't care to participate in something if they feel they won't be exploring something new, this why your project is doing much better than mine. It is probably a better idea after all:lol:

Does anyone else have feedback for me or are you not bothering to click on the thread anymore


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Does anyone else have feedback for me or are you not bothering to click on the thread anymore


These are thoughts off the top of my head:

1. You have a lot of rules to read.
2. Art Rock's thread has a tighter/more precise structure.
3. I continue to feel that "HOF" is a misleading term; I still don't know what you mean by it.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> These are thoughts off the top of my head:
> 
> 1. You have a lot of rules to read.
> 2. Art Rock's thread has a tighter/more precise structure.
> 3. I continue to feel that "HOF" is a misleading term; I still don't know what you mean by it.


Noted. I think 1 and 2 are basically the same thing, right? 2 just being an example of 1. I'll be changing the name HoF, completely forgot about that! If it's all right with Art Rock I'll probably steal the thread title and rules word for word except making it a non-obscure version. If no one else participates then I'll let this thread sit a couple weeks and then just start a new ones with the updates you suggested.

Very happy to see the progress and input, I'm excited for the 2.0 version of this already updated version!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Tchaikov6 said:


> If it's all right with Art Rock I'll probably steal the thread title and rules word for word except making it a non-obscure version.


Of course, no problem.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

We actually had a fifth member join. So now, I ask: are people cool with participating with this smaller number? If so, then I’ll be posting the noms in a day or two, and the HoF will run for ten days (considerably less than last time).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Fine with me.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

*Nominations:*

*Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Sz. 106, BB 114*
Nominated by: gregorx

*Mahler - Das Lied von der Erde* (version sanctioned by composer: full orchestra, tenor+alto or tenor+baritone)
Nominated by: Art Rock

*Mahler - Symphony No. 4*
Nominated by: Tchaikov6
Preferred Recording is Szell: Cleveland - 




*Schumann - Kinderszenen*
Nominated by: Bulldog

*Sibelius - Symphony No. 7*
Nominated by: Allegro Con Brio
The preferred recording is Berglund/Bournemouth: 




Deadline is *February 13*, so ten days.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

As stated, the first featured piece will be...

*Sibelius - Symphony No. 7*
Here were Allegro Con Brio's discussion questions:

1. What is the significance of the recurring trombone theme? Do you find it effective? Is its all the more moving due to its simplicity?
2. Is this symphony in anything resembling a traditional symphonic form, or is it a totally new innovation? Is Sibelius respectful of musical tradition in this composition, or is he forging bold new paths?
3. Why do you think the ending is so abrupt and unexpected?
4. In a recent thread, many viewed this symphony as one of the greatest works of the past century. Do you agree?
5. Finally, is there any specific imagery or "program" you hear in this music?

Feel free to respond/don't respond, but of course it is encouraged. It's suggested you listen to the piece between now and February 6 (when the next rotation will happen).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Sibelius - Symphony No. 7
*
I have two versions on CD: the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra under Neeme Jarvi on BIS and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra under Berglund on EMI. I prefer to listen to a CD rather than Youtube, and I went with Jarvi because I found it quickly in the stack of yet to catalogue CD's (I'm doing the P composers right now in that multiyear project).

His final published symphony (he destroyed the extensive sketches for the eighth) is a condensed one movement work, by far the shortest of the seven. In many ways it has the feeling of a symphonic poem, be it that one has to make up the story as the music plays along - and indeed, I read somewhere that Sibelius used fragments of an unpublished symphonic poem throughout this composition. For me, this is a somewhat elusive work, full of beautiful sounds whenever one pays full attention, but admittedly the mind (at least my mind) does tend to wander off occasionally if one is not fully focused. I still rank it as essential - even though I prefer the 2nd, 4th and 5th. Obviously not one of the greatest works of the past century according to my taste - unless we extend that list to hundreds of works. _Tapiola _on the other hand would be on the shortlist of a few dozen works for that honour.

Artrockometer: "Essential", a work that absolutely must be in my CD collection should I have to start over.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I will post my thoughts on my own submission tomorrow, just so you know. Sorry, been busy lately!


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I will post my thoughts on my own submission tomorrow, just so you know. Sorry, been busy lately!


I have yet to listen to it as well, no worries!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Can you tell us the sequence in which we're going to listen? I could easily have listened to the next one today and post a write-up once it's due. Fridays and Saturdays I'm more squeezed for time in general.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Can you tell us the sequence in which we're going to listen? I could easily have listened to the next one today and post a write-up once it's due. Fridays and Saturdays I'm more squeezed for time in general.


Oops, sorry:

1. Sibelius Symphony
2. Schumann
3. Bartok
4. Mahler 4
5. Mahler Das Lied


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Why did I choose the Seventh Symphony of Jean Sibelius for my Hall of Fame submission? Simple...the work is one of my top 5 musical compositions of all time, and has a good shot at being my favorite thing to be composed since the turn of the 20th century. Ever since I first heard it, this music has stirred feelings and connections within me that nothing else has been able to. Though I don't want to unnecessarily elevate it above the rest of Sibelius's ouevre (Tapiola and the 2nd and 4th Symphonies are also monumental landmarks of 20th century music), I believe it represents the composer at his most profound, mature, and visionary. This symphony is nothing less than an obsession for me- I've probably heard 15-20 versions, and often don't go a week without hearing it. So what about it makes me obsessed with it? I think it mostly has to do with personal circumstances. I spent the last few years living in the Northland of Minnesota, which has a certain poetic aura that I think Sibelius communicates to bone-chilling perfection in his works. I maintain that one's appreciation for him increases astronomically when one knows the lung-piercing effervescence of -30 degree F windchills, the mysticism of thickly-carpeted forests, the crack and moan of splitting ice under a distant but radiant sun. I now live in the big city, but Sibelius instantly transports me to my happy place. When I hear this symphony- the swelling, reverent string hymn that culminates in the release of the trombone theme like staring out across a tremendous mountain vista; the swirling storms of the central scherzoid section that reminds me of snow whipping across a desolate landscape; the remarkably jarring but absurdly satisfying return to the domicile of C major in the final seconds- I hear my vision of life itself. This all must sound very corny to those who don't connect with the work as I do, but whether you are drawn more to the compositional genius of the piece, where Sibelius crafts a jigsaw puzzle of ideas into a profoundly affecting cyclical whole and harnesses his orchestra to create sounds that no one thought could be produced through music; or the sense of piercing longing and desire for one's homeland that I feel, one thing is for certain- nothing else in the world sounds like this piece. And I think it's that boldness, that originality, that singularity, that willingness to be individual, that truly makes the 7th what it is for me.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Just listened to the piece! Since it so short I’m going to be listening to it again soon and writing/responding to you guys tonight hopefully!!


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

I would just like to add that Sibelius's Seventh, in my opinion, is one of the most sublime musical pieces ever composed. The symphony feels like one of his tone poems with its changing tempi, tones, keys, etc. However, I think it has more power and mystery because it is presented as absolute music. In the best performances, I find the Aino climax and the B-to-C ending utterly transcendent. Unlike in Sibelius's other pieces, they aren't even necessarily "built-up to" like in the finale of the 5th, which is perhaps why they are so powerful: they simply emerge and overwhelm you before you even expect it. There is a certain mystery as to _what_ is exactly being triumphed over and yet I cannot help but be incredibly moved.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I don't have this in my collection and am not very familiar with it. So, I listened to the first one up on youtube which is Leonard Bernstein and the Weiner Philharmonic. 

The traditional symphony is not my favorite form with all the stopping and starting over again, so the one movement really works. It is a short symphony and since it turned out to be his last it probably gets a high place in his works. I like his tone poems of which I have a couple of CD's and of course his VC. I don't think I'd put this piece above them. His No.4 is my favorite of his symphonies.

I think a lot of composers in this period were getting away from the classic symphonic form. They certainly did in the following decades. This is 1924, so was he innovative in that? I guess so. As for the abrupt ending, I say bravo. I don't like the long, drawn out, never ending until they mercifully end, endings. A lot of composers are guilty of this, in other genres too, but mostly in classical. I think it's Walton's Symphony No. 1 that goes on so long at the end as to ruin the whole piece. Enough, already. I can't listen to it anymore. 

Anyway, I like this piece; it has a couple of beautiful string sections, great woodwinds and it's not too brassy. But I wouldn't put it in my top 5 Sibelius. One of the greatest works of the last century? I think you'd have to be a hard core Sibelius fan to go that far.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

All right:
*1. What is the significance of the recurring trombone theme? Do you find it effective? Is its all the more moving due to its simplicity?*
YES, I love those theme! It does really bring the whole piece together. I listened to it twice today, still don't think I have a huge grasp on the overall themes and motifs but it was better the second time. And I do think the simplicity - as in a lot of Sibelius - gives it that nature/out in the wild feel that Sibelius's music often reminds me of.

*2. Is this symphony in anything resembling a traditional symphonic form, or is it a totally new innovation? Is Sibelius respectful of musical tradition in this composition, or is he forging bold new paths?*
I was thinking about this one while I listened to it. This is a symphony in perhaps the same way Tapiola is, and about as long too, isn't it? This sort of tight, structured, thematic material is what Sibelius was working towards his entire life. You hear the structured/four movement form in the earlier symphonies and by the later ones he was doing totally new stuff, culminating in this. If I had heard it without hearing the title and asked what form I thought it was, I would probably suggest tone poem or suite, but this is no _symphony_ that comes to mind. Which makes it all the more special that Sibelius is innovating the genre.

*3. Why do you think the ending is so abrupt and unexpected?*
I don't know if I like Sibelius's ending. The ending of the magnificent Symphony No. 2 also suddenly stops its momentum and energy for slow, powerful, chords. It works there, but I would have to listen to this symphony to hear if it really clicks. Sibelius was all about being concise and logical, and I assume this was just another of his ideas about endings, that they didn't need to be long and Romantic. It works well for his music, but I suppose I'll take Tchaikovsky's or Mahler's symphony endings.

*4. In a recent thread, many viewed this symphony as one of the greatest works of the past century. Do you agree?*
I'd disagree, but that's only after hearing this piece for the first time today. I do know I loved it and shall be returning to it, however, for me it doesn't compare with the composer's own violin concerto, plus the works of Ravel, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, and so on. It's certainly not far off from being considered a great of the 20th century, however.

*5. Finally, is there any specific imagery or "program" you hear in this music?*
I hear the usual "nature, outdoors" sound that Sibelius evokes in a lot of people. I totally _want_ to go walking in the winter woods after hearing this music, or just any hike/outside in general. It's beautiful music, that's for sure, and I shall be re-listening soon.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> *Sibelius - Symphony No. 7
> *
> I have two versions on CD: the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra under Neeme Jarvi on BIS and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra under Berglund on EMI. I prefer to listen to a CD rather than Youtube, and I went with Jarvi because I found it quickly in the stack of yet to catalogue CD's (I'm doing the P composers right now in that multiyear project).
> 
> ...


Yes, as I said, it does have the feel of a tone poem, didn't know that he used fragments from one he actually had planned. I need to get a CD copy of this, I did listen on YouTube to the Segerstam/Danish National Symphony Orchestra recording, which was good. I like most of Jarvi's interpretations, I'll be sure to check his out.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Why did I choose the Seventh Symphony of Jean Sibelius for my Hall of Fame submission? Simple...the work is one of my top 5 musical compositions of all time, and has a good shot at being my favorite thing to be composed since the turn of the 20th century. Ever since I first heard it, this music has stirred feelings and connections within me that nothing else has been able to. Though I don't want to unnecessarily elevate it above the rest of Sibelius's ouevre (Tapiola and the 2nd and 4th Symphonies are also monumental landmarks of 20th century music), I believe it represents the composer at his most profound, mature, and visionary. This symphony is nothing less than an obsession for me- I've probably heard 15-20 versions, and often don't go a week without hearing it. So what about it makes me obsessed with it? I think it mostly has to do with personal circumstances. I spent the last few years living in the Northland of Minnesota, which has a certain poetic aura that I think Sibelius communicates to bone-chilling perfection in his works. I maintain that one's appreciation for him increases astronomically when one knows the lung-piercing effervescence of -30 degree F windchills, the mysticism of thickly-carpeted forests, the crack and moan of splitting ice under a distant but radiant sun. I now live in the big city, but Sibelius instantly transports me to my happy place. When I hear this symphony- the swelling, reverent string hymn that culminates in the release of the trombone theme like staring out across a tremendous mountain vista; the swirling storms of the central scherzoid section that reminds me of snow whipping across a desolate landscape; the remarkably jarring but absurdly satisfying return to the domicile of C major in the final seconds- I hear my vision of life itself. This all must sound very corny to those who don't connect with the work as I do, but whether you are drawn more to the compositional genius of the piece, where Sibelius crafts a jigsaw puzzle of ideas into a profoundly affecting cyclical whole and harnesses his orchestra to create sounds that no one thought could be produced through music; or the sense of piercing longing and desire for one's homeland that I feel, one thing is for certain- nothing else in the world sounds like this piece. And I think it's that boldness, that originality, that singularity, that willingness to be individual, that truly makes the 7th what it is for me.


I also agree with you that this is Sibelius at his most mature and controlled. He is a true master of his craft in this piece, confidently placing notes, dynamics, and instrumentation. Almost as if he'd been doing it for years!

I always love reading about how much passion people have for other music, and it makes me excited to hear the music too! You make we want to listen to it a third time today, hopefully someday I will love it as much as you. For now I will simply regard it as a fantastic piece of music.

And that last part, so personal, I love it! You're totally right that this music could only come from Sibelius, and that yearning/desire feeling too. That's a great, powerful, review, I think I'm appreciating it more now after that


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Trout said:


> I would just like to add that Sibelius's Seventh, in my opinion, is one of the most sublime musical pieces ever composed. The symphony feels like one of his tone poems with its changing tempi, tones, keys, etc. However, I think it has more power and mystery because it is presented as absolute music. In the best performances, I find the Aino climax and the B-to-C ending utterly transcendent. Unlike in Sibelius's other pieces, they aren't even necessarily "built-up to" like in the finale of the 5th, which is perhaps why they are so powerful: they simply emerge and overwhelm you before you even expect it. There is a certain mystery as to _what_ is exactly being triumphed over and yet I cannot help but be incredibly moved.


Yes, an interesting thought, and I assume Sibelius would agree as he did, after all, not attach a program to it. I think it's great that people have personal connections with this piece, and when we do have these connections its all the better as we enjoy it more. However, you are right that for many listeners who may not love this the abstractness is something that maybe makes the piece a little more "inspired mystery" if you will lol


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

*Schumann - Kinderszenen* is our current piece. Bulldog, would you like to add some discussion questions? If not, that's cool too. Hopefully everyone listened to the Sibelius by now.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Schumann - Kinderszenen*

The background story is not promising. Of all the more prominent solo instruments, the piano is my least favourite. Of all the famous romantic composers, Schumann may well be my least favourite, except for a few works like the piano concerto and the third symphony. I do have Kinderszenen on CD, it was in fact one of the first Schumann discs I bought. It is played by Cristina Ortiz on an IMP CD. Unfortunately it is a single track without indexing. Right from the start I'm drawn in by the still familiar melodies, short as they sometimes are. About halfway it's time for the Träumerei, a piece I used to play myself in a simple setting on organ - and probably partially because of that the highlight of the whole work for me. It is also the part where Schumann prolongs the treatment of the material, to great effect. Maybe that's in the end what bothers me about large parts of this work (and which occurs in his song cycles as well): it's so fragmented, short pieces without much musical connection (at least not that I hear). On piano from Romantic composers, I prefer Chopin, Mendelssohn, Mussorgsky and Grieg over Schumann. Taken as a whole, my rating for Kinderszenen hovers between Important and Good to have; I went for the higher one because I still love Träumerei.

Artrockometer: "Important" - Reserved for works that I would really like to have in my CD collection should I have to start over.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

*Schumann - Kinderszenen*

A series of 13 little gems that hold together beautifully. Schumann offers a nostalgic view of childhood; he looks at it as an adult and also tries to portray the child himself full of wonder of the world. Totally successful, he often gives us these 2 contrasting scenes with just one note. In the best recorded versions, the contrast is most apparent. My favorite scenes are the last two as Schumann saves his most profound utterances for the end.

For me, the wonder vs. nostalgia elements are the key to understanding and getting the most out of Kinderszenen. I find it one of Schumann's best solo piano works and probably the easiest one to adore.

10/10 - top of the line.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

*Kinderszenen*

Knowing it was part of this HoF, I listened to this on Tuesday, performed by Martha Argerich. Schumann has been, by far, my toughest composer "nut" to crack. I have been trying his music for about 2 years now, and I am just now starting to barely appreciate some of what he wrote. My general impression with most of his works; be it his impressive body of piano music, his symphonies, or his concerti; are that they feature bland, unmemorable melodies that I hear as background music. I find him repetitive, unimaginative, and safe. I love the Piano Quintet, Dichterliebe, the Fantasie in C, maybe the Symphonic Etudes and Ghost Variations. But the rest just doesn't connect with me at all. That being said, I had never listened through this whole cycle, only being familiar with the famous _Traumerei_, which, like virtually all piano students, I have played before. The concept of music that looks back on scenes from childhood in a romanticized way doesn't immediately appeal to me, but even without the program, this represents my struggles with Schumann in a nutshell- each piece features the same little tune repeated over and over with very slight variations. Sure, some of the tunes are quite pretty. But, even for miniatures, I find the material isn't fleshed out enough or even very interesting in the first place. Seemingly trivial as they are, I find Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words vastly more charming and appealing. Sadly, I am simply unable to enjoy most of Schumann. I will keep trying, but I do have a limit. Once I reach a certain point where I have given all my honest efforts to try to like something, I will probably abandon it since I think life is too short to struggle with stuff I don't enjoy. For Romantic piano miniatures; give me Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Brahms, Schubert, Faure, etc.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

*Kinderszenen*

A wonderful work that I practically have memorized (at least I did a couple years ago, when I performed at a recital). It's short, doesn't take itself too seriously and dramatic, and doesn't have a boring moment. I love how Schumann ties certain motifs and themes representing his childhood together in the separate movements. For instance the first and seconds tunes begin on the same notes, although in a different key signature and time signature. While it's not a _masterpiece_, and not my favorite Schumann, I certainly do love it and return to it often.

7/10


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

These two days we'll be discussing/reviewing: *Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Sz. 106, BB 114*

The recommended recording is:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Sz. 106, BB 114
*
Background: Bartok is one of those composers whom I should like a lot given my other preferences - but somehow he does not connect with me the way I'd expect. His acclaimed string quartets fail to impress me, whereas I think Shostakovich' set is the best ever (I prefer them even over Beethoven). His piano concertos I can live without as well, whereas I really like the Prokofiev quintet. There are only a few Bartok works I really like, mainly the Concerto for orchestra, the Violin concerto that is now known as his second, and this work.

I chose to listen from CD rather than YouTube. My version is by the Berliner Philharmoniker under von Karajan on EMI (1960). The first movement (mainly for strings only) flows along serenely. The second introduces a much more belligerent mood, and gives the three instruments groups of the title more interaction. The famous Adagio (often used in movies) may be the best piece of music Bartok has written (to my taste of course). The final is a folk dance influenced musical feast, with a fun dialogue between celesta and strings at the centre, and a perfect ending.

Artrockometer: "Essential" - Reserved for works that absolutely must be in my CD collection should I have to start over.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

*Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Sz. 106, BB 114*

The first time I heard this, over 15 years ago, it was a revelation. I had been listening to "Classical Music" for years but wasn't a student and failed to identify the wide range of music that we put under that banner. With this piece, I started exploring the Modern Period and found something that was more interesting to me. I have come to love this composition and once listed the andante tranquillo as one of my favorite works of art.

Musically, I am drawn to the heavy harmonies in the opening movement and by how big the sound is coming from just the string and percussion sections. The celesta is a curious instrument - really a percussion instrument but played by keyboardists - with a wonderful sound. The music has no key signature and there are performances where a piano is substituted for the celesta.

This four movement piece was composed in 1936, a time when the clouds were gathering in Europe and things were difficult for artists. The Nazi's had sacked the Bauhaus; Mies van der Rohe and Fritz Lang were leaving for the US. The work could have been a score for a German Expressionist film; the slow, hypnotic strings of the andante tranquillo is followed by the almost maniacal allegro where the xylophone, celesta and other percussion instruments makes their first appearance, the tension builds then is briefly broken by the adagio before it picks up again in the allegro molto with that sound from the strings returning.

1936 was also the beginning of the end of the Modern Period. Even though this is not Bartok's most celebrated work, I think it has been very influential. I hear it in the works of some of his contemporaries like Martinu, along with the works of composers that followed like Dutilleux, Lutoslawski,Takemitsu, Rautaavarra and Vasks.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Tchaikov6 said:


> The recommended recording is:


That's my favorite recording of this work. I love the way Bernstein took artistic license with the score in terms of the tempo of the first movement. As you can see on p. 7 of this score, Bartok (I presume) indicated that the first movement should last 6:30. Bernstein's lasts 9:10. The slower tempo increases the suspense, which to me is the defining characteristic of this movement. The long, slow crescendo that culminates in the climax is just remarkable, as is the inversion of the opening theme that follows. Bartok at his best.

It's all the more interesting because this apparently was Bernstein's personal score of this work (see the cover), so he must have been well aware of the suggested times for the movements.

Bernstein score - Bartok Music for SPC


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Bartók is one of my favorite composers and I would not hesitate at all to call this a masterpiece and his very best (in my opinion of course). I think I first encountered this piece in _The Shining_ as a teenager, which was such a perfect fit. The music perfectly encapsulates what Kubrick intended with his film: slow-building, eerie dread culminating in opening the floodgates of madness. And much more recently, I also found it to be a perfect compliment to _Being John Malkovich_ in paralleling an examination of our labyrinthine psychology with marionettes.

All four movements are wonderful, but I have a special fondness for the famous third movement. I think it is Bartók's best use of his "night music" style, which David Schneider describes as "eerie dissonances providing a backdrop to sounds of nature and lonely melodies." The timbres from the glissandi are incredibly unusual and alien, especially given the absence of any electronic instruments at the time. I can only speculate that had Bartók lived long enough to experience the start of the musique concrète movement, he would have composed some brilliant electronic and electroacoustic experiments. If only...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

*Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Sz. 106, BB 114*

I love the brooding nature of the Andante tranquillo, and the last movement is appealing. I can do without the middle two movements.

I listen to this works every few years to see if my opinion of those middle movements improves. So far, no.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Sorry to be late, this is going fast.

*Kinderszenen*

I don't listen to much Schumann, but I don't listen to much from that era. I ended up playing this three times, knowing that Schumann is a highly rated guy.

I like solo piano works a lot. If I want to listen to piano works from this Period, it would be Liszt or Grieg. This isn't my cup of tea. but I can appreciate the artistry. I faded out each time I listened, but three pieces, Träumerei and the last two, are quite good.

Is there such a thing as a Children's Music genre? Music written specifically for children or music for fairy tales and other children's stories.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

*Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta*

I was quite elated to see this work make an appearance in this Hall of Fame! It's one of those compositions which has fond memories for me, as it was the first "modernist" work that I think I ever fell in love with. True, it's not nearly as inaccessible as the majority of Bartok's output (I still struggle a bit with the quartets, for example, even though I love listening to them when I'm in the mood for deep, rich adventure), but I simply didn't know that 20th century music could be so _beautiful_ when I first heard it! The soundscapes throughout this music are consistently inventive and fascinating. The haunting, neo-Bachian polyphony of the first movement, the rousing second movement which reminds me strongly of something from one of his piano concerti (also works I like a lot), the almost nightmarish but still ravishing dreamscapes of the third movement (that xylophone representation of the Fibonacci sequence is an amazing touch), and the finale which is almost neo-Romantic, but never fails to please. The use of a limited orchestra without winds or brass, instead choosing to utilize groupings of instruments like piano, harp, celesta, and timpani to produce eclectic sounds is highly creative. Altogether, it is probably my favorite Bartok work- although the 3rd Piano Concerto, Concerto for Orchestra, 2nd Violin Concerto, and Bluebeard's Castle give it stiff competition. I can safely say I have no reservations about this work, and it remains one of my favorite pieces of music from the modernist movement.

Rating: 5/5, probably one of my top 100 works.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

My apologies for changing the piece late. Right now, we'll be discussing *Mahler - Symphony No. 4*, nominated by me. I've had a busy couple days, and will be reviewing both the Bartok and this very soon.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

*Mahler - Symphony no. 4*

This is my favorite Mahler symphony mainly because of its final movement which I find absolutely gorgeous, profound and nature-related.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

*Mahler- Symphony No. 4*

For this, I'll copy what I posted over in Current Listening for my Mahler Journey...

The 4th has always been my second favorite symphony of Mahler's after the 9th. I respond very well to its classical elegance, shimmering orchestration, bucolic lyricism, and its inclusion of just enough "Mahlery" material to make it seem like Mahler without going over the top. But, encountering it after the vast spiritual vistas of the 2nd and 3rd Symphonies along the Mahler Journey makes it all the more poignant for me. Here we have a composer who had spent the last decade writing music that charted unknown areas of metaphysical and compositional territory, churning out a classically-constructed symphony that seems designed solely to please and beguile. At this period in his life, Mahler was starting to settle into his most joyful period yet, as he was soon to become engaged to his wife Alma, Vienna's most charming socialite. He had started to find the purpose and happiness that he been searching so passionately for, as channeled through his art. This is a symphony that has a very concrete objective and is mostly packed to the brim with gloriously radiant music. But it has its moments of Romantic innovation, and even doubt- the grating climax of the first movement's development, the sinister scherzo modeled after Self-Portrait with Death Playing the Fiddle, the subdued bittersweetness of the great Adagio, and the seemingly random nature of the finale- a soprano Wunderhorn song meant to provide listeners with a naive child's vision of the life to come (he had actually meant to include it in the 3rd). So in a sense, there is still a sense of philosophical gravitas in the work; almost a sort of Resurrection-lite. But let's be honest here- this really is carefree Mahler. Certainly he dabbles in novelty here, but he never strays too far from tradition. And that's what we hear, in the first movement that overflows with an abundance of Mozartian poise and nonchalance, in highly conventional structures in the first three movements, and in the burgeoning variations of the Adagio hymn that bloom as naturally as an unfurling flower. I see this movement as Mahler's greatest essay in the slow movement; perhaps a notch less affecting than the 9th's Adagio, but easily the more well-crafted piece. It has a Beethovenian aesthetic (think the great variations of the 9th Symphony and 12th quartet, music that seems to pour in great rivulets from a heavenly pitcher) and a Brucknerian cosmology about it (especially in the huge, absurdly satisfying climax at the end), but no one had written such stupidly beautiful music as the final 2 minutes with those modulating violin glissandi haloed by harp arpeggios. And there's that strange finale, which can be seen as a disappointment in that it really doesn't match the flow of the symphony at all. But let's see it as something different. Let's see it as Mahler shying away from the titanic struggles that ended the 1st and 2nd Symphonies, and the mighty build-up that ended the 3rd. Let's see it as Mahler's neat, tidy little fairy tale finish that says maybe, just maybe, we don't need to storm the heavens in order to find out what's there.

*Rating: 5/5*, a masterpiece and probably one of my top 50 compositions.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

*Mahler - Symphony no. 4*

I was glad to see this nominated as it gives me yet another go at Gustav Mahler. I have tried with Mahler. I thought that eventually I would get it, but just recently I listened to 2 and 7 with no improvement. I guess he's just not for me. I do like his lieder though. It might also bother me a bit that he was too busy writing epics to do anything else. String Quartets can't be that hard to write for a genius. Those I might have liked.

Since it's his shortest, I guess you could call 4 his most accessible work. It also has a smaller orchestra than usual which helps. I like the first movement and the final movement with soprano is quite good. In between seems the kind of meandering that I always encounter with Mahler.

Another reason I was glad this was nominated is because I have a couple of versions of this including a remarkable reduction by Erwin Stein written for a concert series of modern music in chamber arrangements. Strings, woodwinds and piano. No brass. On the same CD are Arnold Schoenberg's version of Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen written for the same concert series.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Mahler- Symphony No. 4
*
This was my introduction to Mahler, who quickly became one of my favourite composers, and over three decades later still is second only to Bach in that respect. It is still one of my favourite pieces of music, second place in Mahler's oeuvre, and top 3 in symphonies regardless of composer. Normally I do not go into collecting more than one version of a piece - with Mahler's 4th the count is at 50+.... My single favourite version is probably Haitink with Ameling, who nails the child-like aspect of the final movement.

Artrockometer: 
"Hors concours" - Reserved for less than 100 masterpieces.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Suggestion for a Hall of Fame 3 if you plan to continue: personally I don't see the advantage of taking the works in turn on fixed days. Why not let the participants decide when they are going to listen to which work and post about it?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Suggestion for a Hall of Fame 3 if you plan to continue: personally I don't see the advantage of taking the works in turn on fixed days.


I find continuity to be an advantage.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Suggestion for a Hall of Fame 3 if you plan to continue: personally I don't see the advantage of taking the works in turn on fixed days. Why not let the participants decide when they are going to listen to which work and post about it?


Of course participants are allowed to decide. This is merely a suggestion of how to go about it to keep people on track. If you wish, you can actually write/listen to any of the pieces at any time. I just wanted to add a little more structure.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

*Bartok - Music For Strings, Percussion and Celesta*
A good work. I especially enjoy the second and fourth movements, however the first and third seem very off. Obviously it's probably supposed to since it's Bartok and he's weird af. I've never actually loved Bartok too much, however I can call this one of my favorites of his, and I'd say the parts that I don't like are only because of me, this is still a total masterpiece.
*
Mahler - Symphony No. 4
*And I just went all out and nominated my favorite piece of all time, the symphony that got me into Mahler, Wagner, Bruckner, and just about every Modern composer. This piece told me you could fuse the modern and romantic, and even if I listen to it now wondering why I never thought it sounded modern and dissonant, It's still a masterpiece, makes me cry silent tears, and truly is an example of how profound music can be without words (except for the last movement of course).


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

And now, *Mahler - Das Lied Von Der Erde* will be the chosen piece for the final two days. I have some questions to ask about how this HoF went, and if I should do another, but I will sage that for later.

You have four days to send in your voting list (two days extra time).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Mahler - Das Lied Von Der Erde
*
My submission, and my favourite piece of music of all time. I've collected over 60 versions on CD, including several obscure variations (link). There's a great variety between the six movements, and the final minutes are just breathtaking in their simplicity.

Artrockometer: 
"Hors concours" - Reserved for less than 100 masterpieces.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

*Mahler - Das Lied Von Der Erde*

Very interesting on the obscure versions and I did give the chamber version a listen. I prefer high voice so I thought the mezzo soprano sounded good. Too bad Schoenberg couldn't finish it.

Listened to a tenor-alto and a tenor-baritone, I liked the alto better but both very good. I did like this and thought Der Abschied worth the price of admission. 30 minutes is better for me anyway. Maybe to like Mahler I would have to listen to just movements instead of the whole thing. Which, I guess, is why I do like his songs.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

*Das Lied von der Erde*

_My heart is tired. My little lamp expired with a crackle, minding me to sleep. I come to you, trusted resting place. Yes, give me rest, I have need of refreshment! I weep often in my loneliness. Autumn in my heart lingers too long. Sun of love, will you no longer shine gently to dry up my bitter tears? _

Even if Mahler was not a deeply superstitious man, he could hardly be blamed for thinking that the hammer blows of fate featured in his 6th Symphony had not been completely fulfilled by this time in his life. As previously mentioned, the wife with which he poured all his earthly devotion into was unfaithful. His heart had the potential to give up any day. His first child had died of scarlet fever. He had been fired from his 10-year job at the Vienna State Opera, no small part due to antisemitism. He wrote to Bruno Walter that "with one stroke, I have lost everything I have gained in terms of who I thought I was, and have to learn my first steps again like a newborn." At this point, with everything toppling into dust, Mahler was left with few options other than to keep doing what he was best at- thrusting himself into his craft. These cataclysmic events had only started to take root during the years of composing the 8th, and I firmly believe that he simply could not write another work like it during this tribulation. It was in his calmest states that he was in his most earth-shattering moods. Instead, this most personal of composers was inspired to pour out the most personal of compositions. He buried himself in a book of ancient Chinese poems translated into German, and find innumerable fodder for development in this piercing poetry of existential despair and pantheistic mysticism. Inspired again to turn to his "home" genre of the song cycle, he aimed to produce his penultimate essay in the form. The result, The Song of the Earth (originally his 9th Symphony, but retracted due to superstition), can safely be called the 2nd real piece of 20th century music after his own 6th. The real question is- how has such an insanely, almost wrongfully personal work become such a cherished piece among music devotees?

Maybe it's because it simply taps into a universal thread of humanity that binds us all together- the desire to cope with the looming, inconvenient reality of death by groping desperately for answers. We need to understand that this is raw, ravishing poetry. No one who listens to The Song of the Earth should go without following along with the original texts. The music of the first movement may cast an aura of convincingly ardent passion, but unless we know the ideas Mahler is actually communicating, we do not really understand the point: T_he heavens are ever blue and the Earth shall stand sure, and blossom in the spring. But you O man, what long life have you? Not a hundred years may you delight in all the rotten baubles of this earth_. Here we encounter a truly universal dilemma, one that appears in everything from the Bible's book of Ecclesiastes to the musings of Sartre and Heidegger. But Mahler's treatment of it is unique. He always viewed himself as an outcast, a wanderer, a derelict on the face of the earth. Even as a Jew, he always decried his outcast status in nearly every professional circle. This is why he searched so sweepingly and so epically for answers. Das Lied is the culmination of a metaphysical adventure that started with the Songs of a Wayfarer. Mahler finds stability and constancy in nature and in the fact that men in all their complexity must fade away. His musical facade conjures up appropriate images of autumn leaves flurrying to the ground, blades of grass speckled with dew, and spring flowers shooting up as the text demands. A nearly perfect sense of introspection is portrayed. The autumnal metaphors are especially striking. This music is replete with heart-rending melodies, lush harmonies, and sparkling orchestration. But really, this is music about heartache and resignation. This is music that touches an exposed nerve of the century and of the collective consciousness, music that glorifies beauty and dolorousness, music that tries to rinse away the pain of living through drink, music that can literally hurt us if we dwell too much on it. Mahler, in his classic sardonic wit, feared that his audience would go home and shoot themselves. I implore you not to dwell too much on this music and its corresponding poetry. As a window into the soul of an everyman who happened to be an artist, it is invaluable. But just remember, next time you hear the fading utterances of ewig, ewig... as a bard's mandolin strums and a heavenly celesta sends us into infinity, remember what Mahler is really saying, and remember the essence of the eternal transience that defines the soul of Mahler- always scoping the universe for solutions to problems that multiply within all of us.

_Where do I go? I go, I wander in the mountains. I seek peace for my lonely heart. I wander homeward, to my abode! I'll never wander far. Still is my heart, awaiting its hour. The dear earth everywhere blossoms in spring and grows green anew! Everywhere and forever blue is the horizon! Forever ... Forever ..._


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

^ This was.... beautiful....

Do you mind if I post this (with attribution) in my Art for Art's Sake blog?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> ^ This was.... beautiful....
> 
> Do you mind if I post this (with attribution) in my Art for Art's Sake blog?


Thank you so much Art Rock! That means a lot. Yes, you definitely have my permission to do so. I had never really listened to this work in its entirety before my ongoing project of hearing all Mahler's works chronologically, but once I did it really just pierced my soul. The key really is knowing the poetic text.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

And incredibly late as usual, but please send in your voting lists now! Rank the pieces favorite to least favorite.

As you can probably see, I have just had zero time lately, and it's not looking to go away soon. I think I'll wrap up my Obscure Favorites reviews and then leave for a couple months haha. I'll be getting in a Das Lied von Der Erde review, too!!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

5. Schumann
4. Bartok
3. Das Lied
2. Mahler 4
1. Sibelius

I love them all except for Schumann. For the record, I do really love this thread idea. I just think it'd work better with a few more people! (7-10 like the Sharing Obscure Favorites concept.) I'd be up for more editions of this; of course, depending on Tchaikov6's availability.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> 5. Schumann
> 4. Bartok
> 3. Das Lied
> 2. Mahler 4
> ...


Yeah, I think after my break I'll be starting a third one, and probably change up the rules once again. The idea is hopefully it'll get shaped to be better and better each time.

Also fyi you can PM me the voting list if you join a future one, but no worries if it's here! We're just waiting on gregorx for the list now.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

5. Schumann - Kinderszenen
4. Mahler - Symphony No. 4
3. Mahler - Das Lied von der Erde 
2. Sibelius - Symphony No. 7
1. Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta

The Schulmann didn't do anything for me. Maybe it's just the style of piano played in that time. I listened to Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words yesterday and it had about the same effect on me. And Mendelssohn is one of my favorite composers.

Mahler 4 I was familiar with, it's just not anything I listen to. Das Led von der Erde I was not familiar with and am glad I was introduced to it. Quite good, I now have a copy in my Library.

I also picked up a Sibelius 7 - Paavo Berglund - which is outstanding. For some reason, I was not familiar with it. I voted my own selection No. 1. 

Great thread, I like the concept of a personal hall of fame and will look out for H of F 3.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Just now I listened to a version of _Das Lied von der Erde_ that I had not heard yet (Cologne orchestra under Bertini with Heppener and Lipovsek on EMI). No matter which rendition, even after so many listens, once the final notes have played, I just sit there, unable to do anything for at least a few minutes. It's incredible how much this music affects me.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Just now I listened to a version of _Das Lied von der Erde_ that I had not heard yet (Cologne orchestra under Bertini with Heppener and Lipovsek on EMI). No matter which rendition, even after so many listens, once the final notes have played, I just sit there, unable to do anything for at least a few minutes. It's incredible how much this music affects me.


Aaaagh yes I totally agree, and I'll try to respond more in depth later.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

oh, OOPS. I forgot to post the winner:lol:

if anyone remembers (or cares) here was our final ranking:

*1. Mahler - Symphony No. 4
2. Sibelius - Symphony No. 7
3. Mahler - Das Lied von der Erde
4. Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
5. Schumann - Kinderszenen*

Thanks to everyone who participated, seems like ages ago haha


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Tchaikov6 said:


> oh, OOPS. I forgot to post the winner:lol:
> 
> if anyone remembers (or cares) here was our final ranking:
> 
> ...


Yeah, thought about this the other day when I ran across you on a thread. I like the idea of HoF; you can get a wide range of genres and periods (although HoF 2 didn't really reflect that), and it is interesting to hear why someone has picked a work as a personal favorite - rather than having to "objectively" defend it as a great piece. I think 8-10 participants would make it about right.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

gregorx said:


> Yeah, thought about this the other day when I ran across you on a thread. I like the idea of HoF; you can get a wide range of genres and periods (although HoF 2 didn't really reflect that), and it is interesting to hear why someone has picked a work as a personal favorite - rather than having to "objectively" defend it as a great piece. I think 8-10 participants would make it about right.


Thanks, yeah, I may do another one down the road!


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