# What do you think of Domingo's Wagner?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

He made a handful of Wagner recordings and
appeared in few on stage.
What's your opinion on his Wagner singing?
:tiphat:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Itullian said:


> He made a handful of Wagner recordings and
> appeared in few on stage.
> What's your opinion on his Wagner singing?


I've only heard Domingo's Wagner on recordings and broadcasts. It sounds all wrong to me. The studio recordings aren't horrible; the Tannhauser with Sinopoli is one of the better assumptions of the role on record, but the bar is pretty low for that particular role. His German is poor, and his diction in live broadcast performances is dreadful, making the text often unintelligible. German is heavily reliant on consonants, and he ignores far too many of them.

I could live with some of that if he offered interesting interpretations, or even a glimmer of a feeling that the words actually mean something to him, but there's none of that audible, at least to me. I actually find this the case with his performances in any language - he sings with a sort of all-purpose musicality, but there's not sense of identification with any role. It's all very superficial and ultimately boring.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

...
*How do you feel about Domingo's Wagner recordings?*

(December 2017 thread with lots of replies, mine included!)


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Granate said:


> ...
> *How do you feel about Domingo's Wagner recordings?*
> 
> (December 2017 thread with lots of replies, mine included!)


At least I am consistent. :devil:


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm a fan. Domingo is only occasionally my favorite singer in a particular role, but he's one of the top few picks in a staggering range of repertoire and is usually a plus in most recordings. 

Of his Wagner recordings, he's generally better in the earlier Wagner operas than the latter; he's excellent as Tannhauser, Erik, and Lohengrin, but not great as Parsifal, his Tristan is a little underpowered (and also caught too late in his career) and I wasn't impressed by his Ring excerpts. I haven't revisited his Walther in awhile but my recollection was that he was ok, at least compared to the much worse singing happening around him.

I wonder sometimes whether familiarity breeds contempt--it strikes me that if Domingo only did 1/10th the roles and recordings he took, he might be more highly regarded by the cognoscenti. His German is laughably bad in his first few Wagner recordings but he did improve to passable to my ears--but my German isn't great either. I think he sings with great musicality and expression, and I greatly appreciate that he doesn't overdo the Sprechstimme that passes for dramatic singing in the German school.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I can't believe they chose him to conduct Die Walküre at Bayreuth this summer...

https://www.operanews.com/Opera_News_Magazine/2018/8/Reviews/BAYREUTH__Die_Walküre.html


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I'm a fan. Domingo is only occasionally my favorite singer in a particular role, but he's one of the top few picks in a staggering range of repertoire and is usually a plus in most recordings.
> 
> Of his Wagner recordings, he's generally better in the earlier Wagner operas than the latter; he's excellent as Tannhauser, Erik, and Lohengrin, but not great as Parsifal, his Tristan is a little underpowered (and also caught too late in his career) and I wasn't impressed by his Ring excerpts. I haven't revisited his Walther in awhile but my recollection was that he was ok, at least compared to the much worse singing happening around him.
> 
> I wonder sometimes whether familiarity breeds contempt--it strikes me that if Domingo only did 1/10th the roles and recordings he took, he might be more highly regarded by the cognoscenti. His German is laughably bad in his first few Wagner recordings but he did improve to passable to my ears--but my German isn't great either. I think he sings with great musicality and expression, and I greatly appreciate that he doesn't overdo the Sprechstimme that passes for dramatic singing in the German school.


I wouldn't say I'm a fan, but I agree with most of this while also partly agreeing with wkasimer that Domingo tends to sound "generic" in his interpretations. That's not unusual, of course; probably most singers are middling vocal actors. Given that, I was actually pleased with his Tristan and could really feel his commitment to the role. We should have more Tristans who can sing it as musically.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

After over a year of listening, I like his Prize Song very much. His accent doesn't bother me at all.
I like his Tannhauser too.
I'd like to hear his Tristan.
Is it worth buying?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> I can't believe they chose him to conduct Die Walküre at Bayreuth this summer...
> 
> https://www.operanews.com/Opera_News_Magazine/2018/8/Reviews/BAYREUTH__Die_Walküre.html


Any opera house that is stupid enough to employ a director like Castorf will surely regard a conductor like Domingo just an extension to their own mediocrity.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I wouldn't say I'm a fan, but I agree with most of this while also partly agreeing with wkasimer that Domingo tends to sound "generic" in his interpretations.


I read this criticism about Domingo often, but honestly I don't know who this *doesn't* apply to. Bergonzi is tasteful and beautiful, if a little careful and deliberate, whether he's playing Renato or Ernani, Del Monaco is blaring and exciting but without much lyricism whether Otello or Dick Johnson, etc. Who's the mythical tenor who crafts each role as a unique and individualized performance? It often seems to me that Domingo gets this criticism the most simply because he performed and recorded the largest number of roles.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> I read this criticism about Domingo often, but honestly I don't know who this *doesn't* apply to. Bergonzi is tasteful and beautiful, if a little careful and deliberate, whether he's playing Renato or Ernani, Del Monaco is blaring and exciting but without much lyricism whether Otello or Dick Johnson, etc. Who's the mythical tenor who crafts each role as a unique and individualized performance? It often seems to me that Domingo gets this criticism the most simply because he performed and recorded the largest number of roles.


Domingo the tenor was certainly one of the greatest ever. I too cannot understand the carping of critics at his performances although I never heard his Wagner. But his incredible range and dramatic sense have rarely been surpassed. The voice was a wonderful instrument - both beautiful and dramatic. The reason, of course, why critics carp, is that they are themselves mainly failed musicians and the success Domingo has enjoyed offends them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I read this criticism about Domingo often, but honestly I don't know who this *doesn't* apply to. Bergonzi is tasteful and beautiful, if a little careful and deliberate, whether he's playing Renato or Ernani, Del Monaco is blaring and exciting but without much lyricism whether Otello or Dick Johnson, etc. Who's the mythical tenor who crafts each role as a unique and individualized performance? It often seems to me that Domingo gets this criticism the most simply because he performed and recorded the largest number of roles.


Of course you're right. Most singers give "generic" interpretations. But should we avoid taking note of it? We're talking about Wagner here, and with the passion and intensity of Melchior, Vickers, Vinay and other Wagnerians ringing in my mind's ears it's hard to be happy with less. I do enjoy some of Domingo's Wagner nonetheless, and have even remarked on the dedication audible in his Tristan. I can do no more.


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> I read this criticism about Domingo often, but honestly I don't know who this *doesn't* apply to. Bergonzi is tasteful and beautiful, if a little careful and deliberate, whether he's playing Renato or Ernani, Del Monaco is blaring and exciting but without much lyricism whether Otello or Dick Johnson, etc. Who's the mythical tenor who crafts each role as a unique and individualized performance? It often seems to me that Domingo gets this criticism the most simply because he performed and recorded the largest number of roles.


I really enjoy Domingo's work and I agree there are problems with the 'generic' label. I don't often find his recordings as exciting as those of the previous generation - e.g. Corelli, Vickers, di Stefano, Bergonzi, Bjorling - but I can't say that their characterizations are necessarily like a portrait gallery either.

Listening to Vicker's recital with Serafin, I can't say that his Cavaradossi is completely distinguishable from his Enzo and Manrico or altogether different from his contemporary Radames. Perhaps in German rep his Florestan and (say) Siegmund are more clearly delineated?

A lot has been said about how di Stefano used the same technique to sing Arturo as Calaf, Nemorino as Otello and this is why he came to grief. I'm not sure that Bjorling's Rodolfo sounds so very different from his Manrico or Faust.

That being the case, it does still raise alarm bells when Domingo's Rinuccio in Gianni Schicchi sounds quite so much like a Siegmund for weight of tone and characterization...
Rinuccio 



Siegmund 




Going further back in time we sense what is missing. In Italian rep Fernando de Lucia, Beniamino Gigli and Aureliano Pertile all created more dynamic portrayals with de Lucia's Otello nothing like his Fritz or Almaviva, Gigli's Otello excerpts sounding nothing like (say) his Rodolfo and Pertile singing suavely in songs and otherwise working up to a frenzy in verismo.

In German rep you only have to compare Melchior's weary Siegmund in Walkure Act One and his youthful, jubillant Siegfried to not only hear the music sung better than any time recently but also better acted and given a more vivid portrayal than not just Domingo but nearly all modern tenors: it sounds like there has been a decline in standards.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Domingo the tenor was certainly one of the greatest ever. I too cannot understand the carping of critics at his performances although I never heard his Wagner. But his incredible range and dramatic sense have rarely been surpassed. The voice was a wonderful instrument - both beautiful and dramatic.


De gustibus, I guess. I hear none of this. Listening to Domingo, I hear a decent musician singing the notes more less as written - as though he's an extraordinarily gifted sightreader. I hear no drama, no passion, and as for range, I hope that you're talking about range of roles, rather than range of voice. He was a good tenor, a poor baritone, and is a dreadful conductor.



> The reason, of course, why critics carp, is that they are themselves mainly failed musicians and the success Domingo has enjoyed offends them.


Yeah, right....


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> De gustibus, I guess. I hear none of this. Listening to Domingo, I hear a decent musician singing the notes more less as written - as though he's an extraordinarily gifted sightreader. I hear no drama, no passion, and as for range, I hope that you're talking about range of roles, rather than range of voice. He was a good tenor, a poor baritone, and is a dreadful conductor.


You hear no drama or passion in this performance?






If you can sincerely state that there's no drama or passion in that performance, I'll have to conclude that this is a real yanni or laurel thing, or a The Dress thing. To me, that's a gutting performance, with few competitors from any recording I've ever heard--maybe Martinelli is as deeply felt but not more, and is certainly less beautiful.

edited - oops edited the youtube link--not sure why it was indexed at the middle of the drinking song.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> De gustibus, I guess. I hear none of this. Listening to Domingo, I hear a decent musician singing the notes more less as written - as though he's an extraordinarily gifted sightreader. I hear no drama, no passion, and as for range, I hope that you're talking about range of roles, rather than range of voice. He was a good tenor, a poor baritone, and is a dreadful conductor.
> 
> Yeah, right....





howlingfantods said:


> You hear no drama or passion in this performance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't see many live Domingo performances, but his committment to the drama was varied. He could be generic, however I was lucky enough to catch one of his last Samsons where he gave a passionate account of the title role despite being technically past his best. He didn't always rise to the occasion, but when he did he was fantastic.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> You hear no drama or passion in this performance?


Actually, I do - but I think that the credit goes to Verdi. I've never heard *any* performance of the Otello-Desdemona duet that didn't sound passionate.

As for "Esultate!", he sounds like a man passing a kidney stone.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

deleted..……………….


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I didn't see many live Domingo performances, but his committment to the drama was varied. He could be generic, however I was lucky enough to catch one of his last Samsons where he gave a passionate account of the title role despite being technically past his best. He didn't always rise to the occasion, but when he did he was fantastic.


I agree, it's not an all or nothing propostion when it comes to Domingo and the level of dramatic insight he imparts in a role. But when it comes to Wagner, I'll agree with wkaismer that in the recordings I've heard of him he sounds a little odd, dispassionate and doesn't convey any real sense that the words he's singing mean something to him. Not one of my favorite Wagnerian tenors, but far from bad.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Actually, I do - but I think that the credit goes to Verdi. I've never heard *any* performance of the Otello-Desdemona duet that didn't sound passionate.
> 
> As for "Esultate!", he sounds like a man passing a kidney stone.


I guess I would suggest continuing to listen to the rest of the performance, not just the Act 1. And I think many tenors who can sing the role well often sound like they're straining in the Esultate--you'd have to throw out half the classic accounts if that was disqualifying.

Perhaps you just don't like his voice? I certainly have some voice allergies (Varnay, Pavarotti to some degree), so I can relate in the general although not in the specific to this case.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> I guess I would suggest continuing to listen to the rest of the performance, not just the Act 1.


Been there. This is the live Scala with Carlos Kleiber, isn't it? I own it, and have listened to it several times, mostly for Kleiber.


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## Pure Fool (Jul 30, 2018)

I love the Lohengrin he did with Solti and Jessye Norman


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Been there. This is the live Scala with Carlos Kleiber, isn't it? I own it, and have listened to it several times, mostly for Kleiber.


Royal Opera House, also with Kleiber several years later than the live La Scala. This is the one with Margaret Price and Silvano Carroli.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> Royal Opera House, also with Kleiber several years later than the live La Scala. This is the one with Margaret Price and Silvano Carroli.


I've heard that entire performance, too.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> De gustibus, I guess. I hear none of this. Listening to Domingo, I hear a decent musician singing the notes more less as written - as though he's an extraordinarily gifted sightreader. I hear no drama, no passion, and as for range, I hope that you're talking about range of roles, rather than range of voice. He was a good tenor, a poor baritone, and is a dreadful conductor.
> 
> Yeah, right....


You are obviously hearing a different tenor from me then. I have the live Trovatore conducted by Karajan and the acting is pretty decent, the voice dramatic and the range fine. I also had the Caveradossi he made with Levine many years ago - one of the best ever I would think.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> Actually, I do - but I think that the credit goes to Verdi. I've never heard *any* performance of the Otello-Desdemona duet that didn't sound passionate.
> 
> As for "Esultate!", he sounds like a man passing a kidney stone.


Well most tenors do! :lol:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> You are obviously hearing a different tenor from me then.


Nope. Just different ears and different priorities.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> I've heard that entire performance, too.


Well, I'm at a loss. I think that's a thrilling and dramatic performance of the title role--I can't think of many I've heard more dramatic and suffused with feeling.

I can understand you saying you simply don't like it--perhaps you prefer more baritonal tenors in the role, or more traditional tenore di forzas or just don't like Domingo's voice or what have you. But I don't understand characterizing it as undramatic or unpassionate--those are descriptive words not qualitative ones, and I can't understand hearing this performance and describing it as such.

I see the Dress as gold and I hear the sound clip as Yanny. Perhaps you're a Blue Dress and Laurel person.


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