# Countertenors?



## godzillaviolist

hello all,
I was wondering what people here thought of countertenors? Interesting, silly, unnatural or beautifull; what are your thoughts?
godzilla


----------



## Daniel

I would say interesting ... only Castrates are somehow unnatural ...


----------



## godzillaviolist

Arggh, I've been trying to get the same sound clip and it just isn't happening  
Here is a page with some soundclips;

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/AS...842/br=1-10/ref=br_lf_m_9/402-8001365-6704936

Of a countertenor I think is quite good. I can't get the original long sound clip  . But click on the "Nocturne". I think if there were more countertenors like this tenors would have a run for their money  .
godzilla

PS; yes, I know the page is in french  , but it's all I could find.


----------



## Edward Elgar

Countertenors are the coolest guys ever!


----------



## vivaciouswagnerian

I love countertenors. I was going to study as one for about a year, but I realized I'm not one, I just have a clear head voice. I really think countertenors don't get what they deserve. There are many countertenor roles that opera companies just say, "Screw it, drop the octave and use a baritone." (Not to hate on baritones). Ceasar is supposed to be a countertenor. Anyways, thats my spiel, take it or leave it.

Love ya'll


----------



## Guest

Not over keen my self, but I do think David Daniels has a very sweet voice, I never could rate James Bowman?


----------



## 4/4player

In My opinion, I think Countertenors are weird sometimes...It's just hard looking at a guy sing, but he sounds like a woman...Hope I didn't offend anybody and if I did, well My profound apologies!(Im just 15 years old, so my age might affect my look on things,lol)

4/4player


----------



## Amy

Countertenors are in my opinion the best voice to listen to  Nothing disappoints me more when I purchase a recording of a song that was originally written for a male alto and there's a woman singing it. I've heard female voices singing the solo verses in Gibbons' 'This it the Record of John' and found it changes a piece that I have always thought of as profoundly beautiful into something mundane and generic. I don't wish to sound severe on my own sex, but I do prefer male voices generally (with the exception of soprano soloists). This does make me totally hypocritical, as whenever I get turned away from certain church choirs because I am female I complain, but whenever I purchase recordings of choral works I usually tend to go for all male choirs as I find the sound has a much purer quality. Does anyone else have an opinion on women being allowed to sing in traditional church choirs? I do sing in one now in a high church, but even in this case women were only allowed to join five years ago...


----------



## Lisztfreak

Really? Well I know quite a lot of girls of my age who sing for a long time in a church choir. I never heard about any restrictions of the kind.


----------



## Amy

Lol I wish it was like that around Yorkshire! It is restrictive, which is annoying- partcularly when church music is my favourite genre  In York where I live part time younger girls are allowed, but only until they are about 12 and their tonalit begins to change. But even then there are seperate services for the boys and the girls


----------



## Lisztfreak

And people say catholics are conservative...


----------



## Guest

Recently attended a concert by Christ College Cambridge when they visited NZ, the Female Sopranos were magnificent, and at risk of being savaged I much prefer the sopranos to boy trebles which always sound a bit immature to me.


----------



## Frasier

The timbre of boy treble and mature female voices seems quite different, particularly when the latter start to get operatic with their vibrato or whatever it is. I suppose a female singing a boy treble part is as out of character as a boy trying to sing coloratura. For 16th century polyphony females just don't make it. Apologies if that offends anyone.


----------



## Giovannimusica

*Countertenors, female sopranos, and boy sopranos*

Ah yes, I was afraid that this thread might devolve. It is not a question of who sings better or their gender. The really great a cappella choral music written around the 16th century was with the *tonal colours* that the male voice choir could make. Let us remember that they did not always sing with a lusty vibrato since that would disturb the fine textual and notationally constructed pieces, not to mention the character and solemnity of the occasion they sang in. A excellent choir is one that can, at will, turn off the vibrato. To make a fine point - Informed Musicianship! Not only the Conductor but each and every singer should be very cognizant and have taken the time to peruse and *digest* something about the composer and their time on this earth and which were the venues that they composed for. Most, if not all composed for a Church venue. That sort of edifice usually had an other-worldly acoustic and the composers knew it and thusly composed with that in mind. I'll stop right here, otherwise I would digress even further.

Oh, I forgot - just because one has female voices performing in the 16th century choral literature does not mean that the choir sings with a lusty vibrato. A blended and balanced choir of male and female voices can be just as satisfying. But, getting back to the original point - it's a question of style and acheiving the *Informed Musicianship* that should be the ken of every choir.

Humbly,

Giovanni


----------



## Amy

There is no reason to be humble, Giovanni  In my opinion there is nothing worse than an ensemble of female sopranos warbling away the top line of Tallis' 'Spem in Alium' with full gusto. This may make me a traitor to my own sex but the performance of a piece has to be appropriate in style to its era and occasion. Many string players in original Baroque orchestras played with catgut strings, so vibrato was not even possible (hence why some chamber orchestras have recently started to imitate this) and the same is essentially true when performing early church music. Soloists could certainly perform with a rich vibrato, but it is just not appropriate when performing in an ensemble that is intended to produce an interesting yet ethereal sound. That does not mean that I think women should not perform this style of early music, it is merely my suggestion that sopranos should try to achieve a more bell-like treble sound when performing early music rather than the gusto used in performing later choral works. 
And back to the subject of counter-tenors, the same applies for women singing the alto parts in choral works- the style simply has to depend on the occasion!


----------



## Guest

In my opinion, there is still a difference between :
- a young boy, who has been sung for a few years only;
- and a countertenor who is an adult, and has been sung since his childhood;
And I consider a Child who is able to sing in tune Bach’s masterpieces, as a Miracle! 

(by the way, I would be pretty much more indulgent with a child who sings out of tune, than with a countertenor!!)


----------



## Giovannimusica

*Countertenors...Warbling Sopranos---*

Hello Ms. Amy,

Thanx for your kind suggestion. You mentioned "Spem in Alium" with warbling sopranos - Methinks Master Tallis would be rotating in his sarcophagus had he know about that. The Kings Singers did a nice recording of *Spem* a couple of years ago. Anyway, I like your including the string players and their use of catgut strings to illustrate the question about appropriate style. Why you would be considered a traitor to your own sex I don't understand. The focus of *appropriate style* in music performance should, nay, must outweigh the post-Modernist arguments and sentimentalism about gender.

Respectfully,

Giovanni


----------



## music2

*Countertenors*

I think countertenors are great!!! Because they can sing like female alto and soprano beautifully. Their headtones, falsettos and the ranges of their voices are like women. It's like when you listen to them and you close your eyes you can't notice that they are actually men. I remember a countertenor that I had watched at Youtube. His name is Brian Asawa. He's an American countertenor even though his surname sounds like Japanese. He is known for singing works of Handel but in Youtube he sang an aria from one of Mozart's opera. He sang really well no doubt he won prestigious awards. He made me love countertenors more. I am just wondering if "castrati" is still practiced today? Do you think the voice quality of the countertenors will be much beautiful?


----------



## avrile

Nice to from you Music2! I'm getting to be more fascinated with countertenors then! Just a quick question though - Could you name 3 more countertenors who are currently active in the concert scene? What particular repertoire are they suited for? From what I know, they're more akin to Baroque vocal music. What do you think?


----------



## Guest

I've recently discovered Vitas, on youtube. His voice fascinates me…
He sings both classical music and pop (this video, for instance, not classical, is rather funny: 




 )

As for castratis, i had the chance to hear one, many years ago: A priest of my parish, native of India, sang a traditional song. He was not only a countertenor, because his voice was so light, so wonderful, … but he still had his voice of child. Marvelous…


----------



## zlya

There are no castratis alive today, at least in the Western world. Castrating men to preserve their singing voices is a practice which died out in the 19th Century. There is only one recording of a castrato, Alessandro Moreschi, from the early 20th Century. Unfortunately, Moreschi wasn't a terribly good castrato, just the only one around when the primitive recording equipment came to the Sistine Chapel. More often than not the recording sounds like a dying cat.

If there were living Indian castrati I would be very much surprised (and slightly shocked).


----------



## Guest

In fact, you are right. He was not a castrati. I only suppose that his voice has never changed, and there are probably many reasons for that phenomenon that I ignore. But I suppose also that the result, ie the beauty of the voice, _in fine_, is the same…


----------



## dexter

*Countertenor*

In my opinion, countertenors are great. These are men who can sing a high tenor voice through the use of falsetto or sometimes natural head tone. If there is no available female, the countertenor can replace the part of the alto, mezzo or soprano range. Also, a trained countertenor is more similar to a mezzo-soprano. I experienced listening to a countertenor recording and it amazes me. Just close your eyes and you will forget that a real guy is singing.


----------



## Amy

I agree with you, Dexter, as I personally find that female altos lack the purity in tone that countertenors have. I'm very much into early choral music and the idea of Monteverdi's madgrigals being performed by a group using anything other than at least one countertenor seems quite frankly peculiar...


----------



## music2

*Famous Countertenors of today*

Hi Avrile, I am happy to know that you're beginning to appreciate countertenors. Here are some of the famous countertenors of today. First is Derek Lee Ragin, an American countertenor. Aside from being a master in vocal style, he also interprets contemporary music. His recent performance was March 22, 2007. Second is Hurley David, an English countertenor. He is the lead countertenor of the well known international group King's Singers. Third is Michael Chance, an English countertenor. He performed last year a Bangkok opera "Ayodhya". Last is Yuri Borisov, a Russian countertenor. He performed last August 2005 to one of world's famous festival the Edinburg Fringe. It is a series of eleven concerts of Russian art andf folk songs.

I agree to you that most countertenors sang repertoires from Baroque and Renaissance periods. They always sing arias and cantatas from the works of Handel, Purcell, Vivaldi and Scarlatti and many more. This is because during the Baroque period there is an increase of popularity of opera. Many operas were written with roles for castrati and countertenors were the one's who replace them.

I hope my answers to your questions made you more interested in listening to countertenors.


----------



## zlya

I disagree with your preference, Amy, but for the same reason. What you call "purity" I tend to hear as lack of depth. I think a female alto has a lot more richness and potential for expressiveness than a countertenor. But then, my idea of the ultimate alto sound is the sexy late romantic alto, though I also prefer Purcell sung by ladies.


----------



## Guest

zlya said:


> I disagree with your preference, Amy, but for the same reason. What you call "purity" I tend to hear as lack of depth. I think a female alto has a lot more richness and potential for expressiveness than a countertenor. But then, my idea of the ultimate alto sound is the sexy late romantic alto, though I also prefer Purcell sung by ladies.


I completely agree with you, I much prefer Altos and I think the poor old castrati and later the Counter Tenors were used because Females were not accepted in the church so the vocal tradition carries on, I also much prefer Sopranos to boy trebles in choral works they have maturity and feeling.


----------



## music2

*Who sings more pure?*

I think the question of who's more pure in singing depends on the person who sings and the one who listens to it. If a countertenor sings with a mixed choir, his voice might stick out from the group although this would depend on the conductor. If he/she is a good conductor, then he/she could make that person blend with the group. On the part of an alto, you couldn't just mix them to an all male choir because this will not sound good. So this just means that both countertenor and alto have differences. There is a thin line of distinction and limitation to where their voices belong. So the question of who sings more "pure" or who sings best depends because there are countertenors and altos who are good. We must remember that a male voice is different from a female's voice.


----------



## Guest

music2 said:


> We must remember that a male voice is different from a female's voice.


Quite correct so why do we need men with high voices


----------



## Morigan

Because it's pretty.


----------



## Guest

Morigan said:


> Because it's pretty.


LOL pretty what???


----------



## Saturnus

Counter-tenors can sing very beautifully, with qualities a woman can never achieve (and vice versa). Just listen to Robin Blaze...


----------



## music2

*Why do we need men with high voices?*

Hi Andante, I agree that men with high voices sound pretty especially in children when they are trained well. They are like angels coming down from heaven. As for adult men like countertenors we need them because they prove that men could sing like women. They have that special gift to sing high notes. In my last reply I am not saying that we don't need men with high voices at all. What I'm just trying to say is that men are different from women. Men with high voices are good for solos. You could mix them with a choir but this depends on what type of choir. For example an all male choir. And to prove that men with high voices sounds good you should listen to the Kilyawan Boys Choir. The age range of the members of this choir is from 8 to 22.


----------



## Guest

Music2, I am only playing devils advocate, it brings in other points of view from some who may be a bit shy 
but personally I really do prefer sopranos in choral works, the choir of Christs Collage and others have had to admit woman into the choirs and in my opinion it is a better balanced sound, having heard them live it has much more depth and feeling.


----------



## fox_druid

i do love countertenor very much. And about castrato, of course you will never find something like that anymore in this mundane world. I think castrato is a sacred, divine thing, a sacrifice for divinity. i dont think that it has any relationship to the sex discrimination, i think it's just a matter of tradition and the beauty itself. I really disagree with those who thinks that countertenor is silly or funny, only for gay, an example of female discrimination, and many other unprovable subjective opinion.


----------



## Astus

I love countertenors  

There is almost nothing quite so uniquely beautiful as the voices of Mr Scholl or Mr Jaroussky or Mr Pushee (to name a very small few!). Yes, I would say that the countertenor is perhaps an aquired taste, but I personally love the ethereal timbre and almost otherworldly feel of this male voice.

I also think that, particularly in the operas of such composers as Handel, it it wonderful to have a male playing roles like Rinaldo or Giulio Cesare, the gender for which they were initially written. 

Long live the countertenor! If I were not a soprano, I would (somehow) want to be a countertenor


----------



## tenor02

they key to counter tenors is that they have to be more than just have a higher voice- they've still got to be musicians (in the entire word). I was able to sing at Disney World for their Candle Light Processional (big Christmas show) and had to sing in front of a counter and he was absolutely horrible. Always off pitch, kinda flat, it was obvious he really didnt know what he was doing. Result = terrible sound lol. So my exposure to counter's in real life isint good...yet.


----------



## Yagan Kiely

I don't like the sound of boys (or girls), and countertenors remind me of them toomuch (Similar Timbre).

However, 




I like the last male better than the real Soprano.


----------



## Mad Ludwig

The first time I heard a countertenor was in "The Messiah", he sang the soprano part and I found it not too enjoyable. This was no "hip" wersion; it was a symphony orchestra with a choir of five hundred so why they made this chioce is still a puzzle. I tried closing my eyes and that didn't make any difference, it still didn't sound right. The fact that he looked very much like the late Jim Nabors, a TV personality of the time was no help.
One of my favorite vaocal ensembles is the male a cappella group, Chanticleer. Four alto, four tenors two baritones, two bass singers. I have sen them live many times, have most of their recordings, and put them beside the Tallis Scholars. They did the Palestrina Requiem, dedicated by Palestrina to Pope Gregory. It was the only recording of this music, at least then, and it is far and away my favorite. I have all of the requiems by all the major composers and this brief but brilliant piece just sweeps them away. The first disc by them that I bought is "Sing We Christmas" and with it I lost any interest in a shelf of classical and popular holiday music. It is Christmas to me where the "Festival of Lesons and Carols" used to be "it", no offense to the Kings College Chapel Choir.
To use an a cappella choir for Verdi's Requiem would be insane but for some music, less is more. I have a recording by John Aler which is sublime; he vocalizes "Vocalize" by Rach. with great effect. So, I'd vote in favor of countertenors any day. As long as they achieve their art by non-surgical means!


----------



## miamibachfan

Well, I like GOOD counter-tenors, but isn't that the same with anything? Heh.

BTW, if you've never heard Reggie Mobley, you must! He's quite amazing. The only clip I can find is him singing gospel, but his Bach is out of this world!






Enjoy!


----------



## osnapitzdaniel

I actually want to ask my teacher if she could somehow train me a little bit as a countertenor! I'm a baritone by the way.


----------



## osnapitzdaniel

Oops I just posted on an old thread. New here. Sorry!


----------



## Barelytenor

I just can't abide them. I've tried. Nope, not, uh-uh, no way. Unnatural, and mostly ugly to me.


----------



## Guest

osnapitzdaniel said:


> I actually want to ask my teacher if she could somehow train me a little bit as a countertenor! I'm a baritone by the way.


You don't need training mate a good hard kick in the goolies should do the trick


----------



## DoverOs

This page hasn't been posted in for month, but I will add my cents anyways. Countertenors are great when it works and/or when the support is appropriate, but once you hear male altos and contraltos sing with their chest voice, the falsetti countertenor becomes a bit redundant and dull.


----------



## Lunasong

I heard a true countertenor in recital today. This was a big black dude too. It was surprising to hear that pitch coming out of his mouth, but once one got past that, it was lovely. It didn't sound a bit falsetto.
He performed Es ist vollbracht! from _St. John Passion_, J. S. Bach


----------



## Ingélou

I love any voice which is good of its kind, counter-tenors included.
In this Handel clip both singers sound fabulous!


----------



## deggial

Marco Lazzara does a very good job with Venti, turbini:


----------



## SixFootScowl

I prefer avoiding countertenors as much as possible. I saw one in the sung-in-English Julius Ceasar (DVD, Handel), Bowman, who is excellent in the particular role there. I like that one countertenor in that one DVD and on the CD soundtrack of it.

Couple weeks ago I saw Handel's Alcina live. They used a countertenor. While I prefer an also in the role of Ruggerio, this particular countertenor did a remarkably good job of it.

Found an interesting article on *countertenors and their historic castrato forefathers*. Here is a quote:


> Philippe Jaroussky admitted that his cherubic sound can provoke an "element of repulsion" saying, "It's true that there is something potentially ridiculous about this voice coming out of a man's body. People talk about the countertenor being a third sex, or something quasi female."


----------



## LezLee

The daddy of them all, probably the first 'famous' countertenor, the magnificent Alfred Deller.


----------



## jenspen

Here's another thrilling and heart-stopping Es ist vollbracht from the St John Passion - Suzuki recording and the countertenor is Robin Blaze (at 4:40)


----------



## Potiphera




----------



## Phantoms of the Opera

Falsettists can be very good but I'm not keen on the current trend in tone quality. Traditionally it would have been described as a 'white' sound, lacking depth and colour.

For a more substantial sound you need a real countertenor. Here is Russell Oberlin explaining the difference. Notice how high his speaking voice is (his speaking voice has a beautiful quality to it as well):






Here is the second part of the video when he sings:


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Countertenors are hit-or-miss for me, but there's one role where I really think that one is necessary- in Bach's passions. _Erbarme Dich_ is supposed to convey the anguished penitence of Peter after betraying Christ, and hearing it sung by a woman just doesn't have the same effect for me. Andreas Scholl and Robin Blaze are very good.


----------



## Mandryka

Phantoms of the Opera said:


> Falsettists can be very good but I'm not keen on the current trend in tone quality. Traditionally it would have been described as a 'white' sound, lacking depth and colour.


who are you thinking of?


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Technically and musically Franco Fagioli is a very impressive operatic countertenor. In the tradition of Italian bel canto, which included the castrati, Fagioli is able to effectively use all the vocal registers (chest, medium, high) including a strong baritone. Nicola Porpora in his _aria di tempesta_ 'Passaggier che sulla sponda' written for his pupil, the famous castrato Gaetano Caffarelli, writes the first phrase in the middle octave and the second in the octave below, in order to showcase the two different voices. The castrati had the ability to show this duality, this androgyny, and it continued to be important well into the nineteenth century. In Rossini, for example, especially the trouser-roles like _Tancredi_ or Calbo in _Maometto Secondo_, there's still this emphasis on showing off the female and male qualities in the same voice.


----------



## Sad Al

So Al Deller is 100% forgotten. Sic Ford Transit gloria mundi. I wish I hadn't his last recording (Purcell). It's so stupid to listen to morons like Deller and Purcell when we have Bezos and all these pop stars in bikini


----------



## adriesba

This is quite a comparison! \/






If you go to the YouTube page, you will see their description of what a countertenor is. What do y'all think? Is their definition accurate?

I remember watching another video on YouTube in which the countertenor Anthony Roth Costanzo said that his speaking voice supposedly lowered at puberty but not his singing voice. I remember thinking, "That's nonsense!" I really do not see why someone's speaking voice and singing voice would be different ranges. From the This is Opera videos I've watched, singing voice range depends on not only puberty, but also proper use of chest voice, since you could also sing in head voice and falsetto. I might be mixing things up, but I just don't see how countertenor voice is anything other than a person with a lower voice doing special manipulation. Could someone explain?


----------



## Marc

Sad Al said:


> So Al Deller is 100% forgotten. [...]


Really?
By whom?


----------



## Simplicissimus

I dislike the countertenor voice, which has always been sort of a shame for me as an Early Music guy. I recognize the artistry of Drew Minter et al., but I always prefer a female alto for that part. Mea culpa.


----------



## perempe

Dmitry Sinkovsky was a guest of Hungarian RSO, played in Matthias Church. he was impressive, also played the violin.


----------

