# The Curse of the 9th Symphony: Discuss.



## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Greetings.

I've always been fascinated by this phenomena:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_the_ninth

And I don't think Wikipedia's list is complete.

Ninthically yours,
-09


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## Sol Invictus (Sep 17, 2016)

All I'll say is that I'm glad it didn't apply to Mozart or Shostakovich.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Sheer coincidence. For me the curse of the 9th is that a composition I loathe is often quoted to be the best classical music composition of all time, yes, even the best artistic creation of all time.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

At the beginning I think it was a coincidence- Beethoven, Schubert, Bruckner... but once we get to Dvorak, Mahler, Vaughan Williams, they all begin thinking... is it a coincidence, though? Nowadays, most of us agree that it is a coincidence, but Mahler certainly didn't think so- he was too nervous to write a tenth, so he wrote The Song of the Earth instead. And when he did attempt a tenth, he died. Surely Mahler was thinking in his dying days- well there's the curse of the ninth. Dvorak and Vaughan Williams weren't _as _ nervous about it, but they probably had their moments of doubt while writing their final ninth symphonies- should I go on to a tenth? Perhaps this fear was what kept so many composers from writing a tenth symphonies.

So maybe it's not really a coincidence. It is a choice made by composers so they won't pass Beethoven.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

William Schuman composed 10 symphonies. Some folks aren't superstitious. I'd rather hang around with people like them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahms suffered from a different curse, but one also caused by Ludwig van B. He was afraid to write a first and so only had time for four.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> William Schuman composed 10 symphonies. Some folks aren't superstitious. I'd rather hang around with people like them.


I agree, although I generally prefer not to stand right next to people who are composing that 10th Symphony.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

JAS said:


> I agree, although I generally prefer not to stand right next to people who are composing that 10th Symphony.


Especially if the person is composing it on a crowded subway station with a train coming and a live third rail below!!

I could easily lose my compose-ur


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bruckner wrote 1->8 and died before finishing the 9th. Actually he wrote 10 (0 & 00) and died before finishing his 11th.
Mahler wrote 1->9 and died before finishing the 10th. Actually he wrote Das Lied so died before finishing his 11th.

Other than Schubert who has 2 unfinished symphonies, that only leaves Beethoven, Dvorak & RVW. Perhaps the only consistent thing is to talk about the Curse of the 11th?


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## Rys (Nov 26, 2016)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Nowadays, most of us agree that it is a coincidence, but Mahler certainly didn't think so- he was too nervous to write a tenth, so he wrote The Song of the Earth instead. And when he did attempt a tenth, he died. Surely Mahler was thinking in his dying days- well there's the curse of the ninth


Wasn't Das Lied written before the ninth? I've always thought that the irony of Mahler's fear is a reason why Bernstein seamed to praise Mahler as a oracle.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Bruckner wrote 1->8 and died before finishing the 9th. Actually he wrote 10 (0 & 00) and died before finishing his 11th.
> Mahler wrote 1->9 and died before finishing the 10th. Actually he wrote Das Lied so died before finishing his 11th.
> 
> Other than Schubert who has 2 unfinished symphonies, that only leaves Beethoven, Dvorak & RVW. Perhaps the only consistent thing is to talk about the Curse of the 11th?


Don't forget the less famous "niners" in the Wiki article. It really looks as if there's no consistency at all. Another testimonial to the heartless randomness of the universe.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm forecasting that the "curse of the 900th" will claim Segerstam before he gets there. :devil:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I'm forecasting that the "curse of the 900th" will claim Segerstam before he gets there. :devil:


Now that you mention it, it does seem to be true that no one has gotten beyond that 900 symphonies mark. Hmmmm. Enniakósiaphobia?


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## Rys (Nov 26, 2016)

JAS said:


> Now that you mention it, it does seem to be true that no has gotten beyond that 900 symphonies mark. Hmmmm. Enniakósiaphobia?


I have hope Santa will be our first.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Rys said:


> Wasn't Das Lied written before the ninth? I've always thought that the irony of Mahler's fear is a reason why Bernstein seamed to praise Mahler as a oracle.


True, Das Lied was written before nine- my point overall was that Mahler didn't want to write _more_ symphonies than Beethoven- he was okay with writing nine, though.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Rys said:


> Wasn't Das Lied written before the ninth? I've always thought that the irony of Mahler's fear is a reason why Bernstein seamed to praise Mahler as a oracle.


Yes it was. As to Bernstein, he had a few odd ideas about Mahler's 9th and the impossibility of him doing a 10th ... even though we know how much of the 10th he had actually done. Facts can be rather inconvenient things.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Tchaikov6 said:


> True, Das Lied was written before nine- my point overall was that* Mahler didn't want to write more symphonies than Beethoven*- he was okay with writing nine, though.


Nonsense, he already had his 10th complete in short score and had orchestrated one movement, parts of two others and had extensive notes on the rest.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Becca said:


> Nonsense, he already had his 10th complete in short score and had orchestrated one movement, parts of two others and had extensive notes on the rest.


Quoting Wikipedia... "Despite the symphonic nature of the work, Mahler refused to number it, hoping thereby to escape the "curse of the Ninth Symphony" that he believed had affected fellow-composers Beethoven, Schubert and Bruckner."

Quoting wqxr.org... "Mahler was the first to believe in a superstition surrounding ninth symphonies. He freaked out and developed an obsession with the curse. After he completed his eighth symphony, Mahler came up with a clever plan to beat it. He wrote a piece of music (Das Lied von der Erde) that was a symphony in everything but name, but refused to actually call it a symphony. Then he got to work on Symphony No. 9, resting easy at the thought of beating the curse. But the powers that be didn't buy Mahler's trick play, and struck him down after he set to work on Symphony No. 10."

Quoting cmuse.org... "Gustav Mahler was not only intrigued by the so-called curse, he was obsessed with it. A student of Anton Bruckner (who also died while composing his 9th symphony), Mahler's obsessive nature led him to strive to make all of his work as powerful and iconic as Beethoven's 9th symphony. However, he himself was incredibly fearful of composing anything that could be referred to as a 9th symphony out of fear of death. This is why his arrangements are named as they are (i.e. symphony for one tenor and one alto)."

There are three reliable websites that have all explained that Mahler indeed was very well aware of this curse, and did fear it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If you go back and look at what I highlighted in the quote, it was your comment that "Mahler didn't want to write more symphonies than Beethoven" to which I was referring. Ignoring Das Lied, he was most of the way to completing a 10th symphony ergo he had no issue with writing more than Beethoven.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Becca said:


> If you go back and look at what I highlighted in the quote, it was your comment that "Mahler didn't want to write more symphonies than Beethoven" to which I was referring. Ignoring Das Lied, he was most of the way to completing a 10th symphony ergo he had no issue with writing more than Beethoven.


But if you read what _I_ posted, he did have an issue with it! He did eventually get over it- sort of- and begin a tenth, but he was always superstitious...


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> I'm forecasting that the "curse of the 900th" will claim Segerstam before he gets there. :devil:


The curse of the 309th is real until proven otherwise!


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I've told my friends who know nothing about classical music the story of the curse of the ninth symphony. It makes a good story to tell for those not in the know. But that's all it is, a story.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Title of Segerstam's 307th: "Digging up old chains of euforic inspirations old-fashionedly looking into Tunnels leading to surrounding dimensions..."

His #309 was still in 2016. I'm sure he's written more by this time. No slacker he!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Other than Schubert who has 2 unfinished symphonies


I think you'll find he has more than 2. Just unnumbered.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

So let's get this straight - is the 'Curse of the 9th' incurred during the writing of a tenth or in not attempting to write a tenth at all? Or is the curse incurred while dying trying to write a ninth?

It's surprising how many famous people died of tuberculosis at the age of 39 but no-one seems to notice that. So is there a '39 TB' curse like the fabled '27 Club' in rock/pop music?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I think there is such a thing as the curse of the ninth. But it's not that it kills composers. It's that if you get around to a ninth, your symphony is inevitably going to get compared to Beethoven's ninth, and there is no way to win that competition. Especially if you decide to do a big, choral thing for your ninth. It's all very unfair.

Shostakovich escaped this problem by (perhaps quite deliberately?) writing that bouncy, jaunty little piece that we have all come to love. But now he has worsened the curse, because if you decide to follow suit and make your ninth a lighter work, you get compared to Shostakovich. And you can't make a big serious work either, because then Beethoven knocks you flat.

And thus, modern composers are well served to not write a ninth at all. Or to leave their symphonies unnumbered. Or, if you're going to write a ninth, you'd better also write a 20th, or 67th, because that way you show that you conceive of the symphony in a completely different way and thus you can escape the unfavourable comparisons. Except of course for getting compared to other prolific symphonists. 

In short, the longer the classical tradition goes on, the bigger the shoes that new composers have to fill. No wonder more and more talent gets siphoned off into pop.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

Because a handful of (albeit notable) composers wrote nine symphonies, we're going to ignore the dozens of exceptions and call the whole thing a curse? Sounds legit.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Once composers complete a ninth symphony, a signal is sent to aliens, and they take away the composer to compose for them exclusively. As people started taking notice this curse, they would send a clone down to write more.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Once composers complete a ninth symphony, a signal is sent to aliens, and they take away the composer to compose for them exclusively. As people started taking notice this curse, they would send a clone down to write more.


That would be far more plausible if it was stated in a tweet.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

When someone mentions the curse of the Irish, I always ask which one.  Likewise with 9th symphonies. The other curse is the one Shostakovich came up against: The expectation that a 9th has to be monumental and weighty. After two heavy and lengthy war symphonies (7 & 8), Shostakovich was having none of it. His Ninth disappointed many.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2017)

For a while, there was a curse on new decade presidents in America being assassinated every 20 years. 1860-Lincoln, 1880-Garfield, 1900-McKinley. But in 1920, Warren Harding was elected and he died in office but was not assassinated. So the curse became that the new decade presidents died in office every 20 years rather than being assassinated. In 1940-Roosevelt, 1960-Kennedy. In 1980, Reagan broke the curse but he was shot in an assassination attempt so the curse became that they died in office or attempts were made on their lives. But after that, the curse disappeared. 2000 was George W. Bush who neither died in office nor was there an assassination attempt. He's still alive. We'll see if 2020 picks the curse back up.

What is odd though is that one could say that prior to Reagan, every president that died in office was a new decade president. Prior to Lincoln, it was Zachary Taylor (1850) and prior to him if was William Henry Harrison (1840). That is all the US presidents who died in office. So you could say the curse is now that while a new decade president may not die in office, every president who has died in office was a new decade president. But even then, not really. Taylor was elected to office in 1848 and started serving is 1849 but died in 1850 rather than being elected in 1850. So it's just a matter of reshuffling the curse so that it always seems to apply. Kind of like the coincidences between Lincoln and Kennedy.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

I don't think I subscribe to The Curse of the Ninth, but it is an interesting thing to ponder and discuss. More than a coincidence? Hmmm..... <staring off into space>.....


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Why aren't there any curses for non-symphonic genres? Beethoven only wrote 16 string quartets, so why isn't there a curse of the 16th quartet? Why no curse of the 32nd piano sonata? And so on...


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## Gradeaundera (Jun 30, 2016)

What would happen if you killed yourself after composing the second symphony? did you beat the curse?


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

Would Mahler have written 20 "symphonies" if he had called them "Sonata For Orchestra", instead of symphony? 


Daniel


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Do sinfoniettas count? Maybe as half of a symphony? And what about Schumann's Overture, Scherzo & Finale? Is that 3/4 of a symphony?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Title of Segerstam's 307th: "Digging up old chains of euforic inspirations old-fashionedly looking into Tunnels leading to surrounding dimensions..."
> 
> His #309 was still in 2016. I'm sure he's written more by this time. No slacker he!


I think he's aiming for 400, so that he can say that he wrote a hundred times as many symphonies as Brahms.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

If you're a composer, you definitely need to fear the worst case scenario: if you die after your 9th symphony, Barry Cooper might decide to make a clumsy attempt at completing No. 10. That's the true Curse of the 9th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_(Beethoven/Cooper)


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## Guest (May 2, 2017)

Jacred said:


> Because a handful of (albeit notable) composers wrote nine symphonies, we're going to ignore the dozens of exceptions and call the whole thing a curse? Sounds legit.


_"Composers before Beethoven, such as Joseph Haydn (104), Michael Haydn (41) and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (41), are not considered relevant to this superstition"_

says the Wiki article.

Shostakovich had to keep his fingers crossed the entire time he wrote his tenth...or was it the ninth? I'm not sure what he had to do to keep Fate at bay while writing 11, 12, 13 (duble trouble, eh?) 14 and 15, but it must have been quite something. Unless, of course, superstition doesn't apply to Soviet stooges!


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## Guest (May 2, 2017)

Anyone who attempts to provide a rational explanation to either prove or disprove a superstition seems to be missing the point. Like phobias, superstitions are based in emotional reactions, not intellectually coherent ones. I scoff at this superstition, but I still won't walk under a ladder.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

senza sordino said:


> I've told my friends who know nothing about classical music the story of the curse of the ninth symphony. It makes a good story to tell for those not in the know. But that's all it is, a story.


Too true - a classical urban myth. In fact this theory contradicts itself as there are far, far more composers who wrote more than 9 symphonies than those who did.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes, the 9th symphony thing is simply a superstition, according to me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Why aren't there any curses for non-symphonic genres? Beethoven only wrote 16 string quartets, so why isn't there a curse of the 16th quartet? Why no curse of the 32nd piano sonata? And so on...


Perhaps, because this particular topic has been given only cursory attention, up until your current courageous confrontation of this previously uncomfortable topic.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

I don't understand how someone could logistify such a stupid superstition, there is no reality in this absurd conspiracy


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Per Nørgård, you silly Dane, we're waiting, don't go and die on us before no. 9.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I wonder why nobody ever told Joachim Raff about the curse! He wrote 11 symphonies. Maybe he was too busy to hear about the curse exactly _because_ he _was_ writing eleven symphonies!

And Louis Spohr, a contemporary of both Beethoven and Raff, wrote 10 symphonies. Perhaps he would have written more had he not spent so much time writing string quartets, of which he's given us at least 36. What? No "Curse of the 16 String Quartets"?

And Spohr also wrote eighteen violin concerti and ten operas. He could have been writing symphonies instead. But there is obviously no Beethoven "curse of the single violin concerto or opera" either!

Carl Maria von Weber, another contemporary, wrote only two symphonies, whether he heard of the curse of not. But he did compose at least ten operas. And he had a much shorter life span than did Ludwig van who found time only to write that single opera. I guess maybe he was writing symphonies instead.

Carl Czerny, who studied piano with Beethoven, wrote only 11 piano sonatas (I guess he was haunted by "the curse of the 32 sonatas"!), but he went on to write many more solo piano pieces than did his teacher. So what does this say?

And why don't we have a "curse of the Five Piano Concertos"? Is it because Ferdinand Ries, a close acquaintance of Beethoven, wrote eight?

This "curse of the Nine" is so much ballyhoo, in my opinion. It sounds good to write about for music critics who would rather write about the curse than write symphonies of their own.

I'm sure that if Beethoven had lived longer he'd have written a few more symphonies. (He had already sketched ideas for a 10th. I suspect that had Beethoven written 16 symphonies, someone would be accusing Shostakovich of falling under the "curse of the 15".

Alas....


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