# Transgender composers?



## MoonlightSonata

I can't think of any transgender composers besides Wendy Carlos - surely she's not the only one? Some estimates say that as many as 2-5% of people could be transgender, so, statistically, shouldn't there be more?
Just curious.


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## Dim7

Well if you want a transgender and on top of that a transracial composer, there's always Michael Jackson...


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## GreenMamba

We used to have a member here who (IIRC) was a young transgender composer. 

I don't know where you get 2-5% from, and whether that only includes people who are openly transgender. You wouldn't know otherwise. I would suspect the percentage is higher among younger people, given societal acceptance issues.


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## MoonlightSonata

GreenMamba said:


> We used to have a member here who (IIRC) was a young transgender composer.
> 
> *I don't know where you get 2-5% from, and whether that only includes people who are openly transgender.* You wouldn't know otherwise. I would suspect the percentage is higher among younger people, given societal acceptance issues.


[Admin edit: The domain transgenderlaw.org has expired]


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## KenOC

GreenMamba said:


> We used to have a member here who (IIRC) was a young transgender composer.


Believe we still do.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

One of the people who assess my guitar performance at school is MTF transgender. I don't believe she has ever composed, but there are some transcription and arrangements for guitar ensembles that have been made.


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## Weston

It was never entirely clear to me whether Wendy Carlos really was ever Walter to begin with. Those sideburns from early photos looked rather pasted on to me, and at the time I thought maybe this was a case like Andre Norton, a lady writing in a "man's" field who chose a masculine name to hide her gender. But Carlos does look sort of androgynous either way.










The only other one in the public eye I can think of is Dee (formerly David) Palmer, string and orchestra arranger for several progressive rock acts, especially Jethro Tull, and composer of the theme for the (BBC?) show "The Blood of the British."










The disturbing thing to me is that some of these ladies could, back in the day, grow more impressive facial hair than I ever could my entire lifetime. There is simply no justice!


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## GreenMamba

MoonlightSonata said:


> http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf


"Experience some degree of gender dysphoria," which isn't the same as being openly transgender, which means we might not know who.


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## jericollins

i believe that for every one who is "out" there are a hundred who are living "stealth." i also think there are untold millions in the world who deny it, hide it and resist it because of societal and religious pressures with varying degrees of success. i don't think it is possible to know how many there are. i would guess one in several thousand out of six and a half billion. on one hand i don't think it matters or should be an issue, and on the other hand it would be interesting to know how many have composed, arranged or played the music we love.


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## Delicious Manager

These are the ones I know about:

Wendy Carlos (used to be Walter until 1979)
Angela Morley (used to be Walter "Wally" Stott until 1972. Died 2009)
Dee Palmer (used to be David Palmer until 2003)
Terre Thaemlitz
Billy Tipton (jazz musician who appeared professionally as a man when she was, in fact, female)


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## Figleaf

Delicious Manager said:


> These are the ones I know about:
> 
> Wendy Carlos (used to be Walter until 1979)
> Angela Morley (used to be Walter "Wally" Stott until 1972. Died 2009)
> Dee Palmer (used to be David Palmer until 2003)
> Terre Thaemlitz
> Billy Tipton (jazz musician who appeared professionally as a man when she was, in fact, female)


Goodness, I had no idea that Wally Stott (whose name I probably remember from the Goon Show) became a woman. I wonder why he changed his/her surname as well.


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## Becca

Figleaf said:


> Goodness, I had no idea that Wally Stott (whose name I probably remember from the Goon Show) became a woman. I wonder why he changed his/her surname as well.


Two comments from a transgender friend...
1. They never 'became a woman', they always were in terms of their sense of gender
2. It is polite and appropriate to refer to a person by their preferred gender, hence "I wonder why SHE..."


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## BurningDesire

I'm a trans composer  I think I'm the one Greenmamba remembered.


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## BurningDesire

Dim7 said:


> Well if you want a transgender and on top of that a transracial composer, there's always Michael Jackson...


There is no such thing as transracial, and Michael wasn't transgender. Somebody simply being androgynous looking, or feminine or masculine looking for their gender isn't the same as being trans.


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## Figleaf

Becca said:


> Two comments from a transgender friend...
> 1. They never 'became a woman', they always were in terms of their sense of gender
> 2. It is polite and appropriate to refer to a person by their preferred gender, hence "I wonder why SHE..."


Thanks for that informed reply. I meant 'became a woman' in the sense of 'began to publicly identify as a woman, having previously had the public identity of a man'. I suppose I should have said 'I wonder why SHE...'- but I thought it would be appropriate to say 'he' of a male-to-female transsexual when referring to Wally/ Angela as s/he was at the time when s/he possessed a male name and an outwardly male identity. No offence to transgender people was intended.


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## cwarchc

Why? does it matter
Music is music, whoever created it


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## Cosmos

cwarchc said:


> Why? does it matter
> Music is music, whoever created it


It doesn't matter musically, really. Just something notable about the composer, or an example of representation of that group in music. Like idols others in the group can look up to, and can be used as examples of important members of their group, especially to those who are very hateful to said group. I know I tend to be interested in gay composers, not because their music is any better because of it.


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## sabrina

I think it is a big difference between real transgenders, people born as girls/boys but having opposite or mixed sex organs (sometimes they are inside the body (abdomen). It is basically a difference between the phenotypical traits and the genotypical sexual baggage. There is a much newer type, where they are born biologically absolutely normal, but they identify themselves in a different (opposite sex) way. They should be named differently...as they are different.
But going back to music...I know nobody...talking about classical composers.


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## MrTortoise

sabrina said:


> I think it is a big difference between real transgenders, people born as girls/boys but having opposite or mixed sex organs (sometimes they are inside the body (abdomen). It is basically a difference between the phenotypical traits and the genotypical sexual baggage. There is a much newer type, where they are born biologically absolutely normal, but they identify themselves in a different (opposite sex) way. They should be named differently...as they are different.
> But going back to music...I know nobody...talking about classical composers.


And I think there is a big difference between people who know what they are talking about and those that don't.


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## Becca

sabrina said:


> I think it is a big difference between real transgenders, people born as girls/boys but having opposite or mixed sex organs (sometimes they are inside the body (abdomen). It is basically a difference between the phenotypical traits and the genotypical sexual baggage. There is a much newer type, where they are born biologically absolutely normal, but they identify themselves in a different (opposite sex) way. They should be named differently...as they are different.
> But going back to music...I know nobody...talking about classical composers.


Continuing on the comments from my transgender friend...

Transgender refers specifically to those born apparently with one gender but who identify with the other gender. Those whose sex organs are indeterminate or mixed are considered to be intersexed, a completely different category from transgender. Some recently published research has shown that there are real, visible brain differences between men and women (no surprise there) AND transgender people show the brain characteristics of the gender with which they identify.


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## SimonNZ

Which "brain characteristics"?

(not arguing - I just haven't read as much as I'd like on this subject)


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## Becca

SimonNZ said:


> Which "brain characteristics"?
> 
> (not arguing - I just haven't read as much as I'd like on this subject)


There are some structures in the brain which are different relative sizes between the genders than can be determined by various scanning methodologies. Sorry that I can't tell you more specifically but I can ask some questions if you are interested and want to contact me privately.


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## SimonNZ

Thanks for that. I'd be interested if your friend (or anyone here) could recommend some reading or a journal article. No particular urgency, though.


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## sabrina

Becca said:


> Continuing on the comments from my transgender friend...
> 
> Transgender refers specifically to those born apparently with one gender but who identify with the other gender. Those whose sex organs are indeterminate or mixed are considered to be intersexed, a completely different category from transgender. Some recently published research has shown that there are real, visible brain differences between men and women (no surprise there) AND transgender people show the brain characteristics of the gender with which they identify.


I consider myself ignorant in many subjects, but I have never heard that there are notable differences between a male and a female brains. Yes, there are many differences in sexual hormones, that influence the body development, but about any brain difference...I really, really doubt. I should sue my anatomy teacher for not telling me such an important thing


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## Weston

sabrina said:


> I consider myself ignorant in many subjects, but I have never heard that there are notable differences between a male and a female brains. Yes, there are many differences in sexual hormones, that influence the body development, but about any brain difference...I really, really doubt. I should sue my anatomy teacher for not telling me such an important thing


Then, unless I'm missing a subtle joke, I invite you to join us in the 21st century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences


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## ArtMusic

There are no transgender composers in history that I am aware of. Certainly none from the 18th century and before. There were numerous castrato singers but that's obviously very different, and many were among the greatest singers who ever lived that inspired numerous great arias composed specifically for them.

A nice painting of a castrato singer,


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## MrTortoise

sabrina said:


> I consider myself ignorant in many subjects, but I have never heard that there are notable differences between a male and a female brains. Yes, there are many differences in sexual hormones, that influence the body development, but about any brain difference...I really, really doubt. I should sue my anatomy teacher for not telling me such an important thing


Google is your friend

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

but maybe your anatomy teacher has new research. What journals do they publish in?


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## Morimur

This neither here nor there, but I was born a male and plan on remaining one!


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## Richannes Wrahms

Whether it work for or against composition, I can't begin to imagine the genetic-hormonal mess going on. That'll keep the biochemists entertained for years!


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## BurningDesire

A reminder, this thread is about trans composers, its not a thread for bigots to talk about how weird trans people are and make fun of them. Also, glad to see that this site still doesn't give a crap about people saying really rude things about LGBT people, but you better not insult somebody's precious opinion on a certain composer. That would be wrong.

In fact, since I'm openly trans (and a composer) I feel like this borders on personal insults.


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## Dim7

BurningDesire said:


> There is no such thing as transracial, and Michael wasn't transgender. Somebody simply being androgynous looking, or feminine or masculine looking for their gender isn't the same as being trans.


Kidding, kidding! I was confused for a girl a couple of times myself in my teens when I had long hair, and I'm well aware that I wasn't actually transgender back then.


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## millionrainbows

Castratos don't really figure in to all of this, do they?


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## millionrainbows

Gender is just an identity, right? It is separate from sexual orientation and biological sex.

So, you could be born as a male, who identifies as a woman, and who likes kitchen appliances.


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## Bulldog

This is all very confusing. Think I'll just stick to my wife; I know for a fact that she's a 100% female.


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## Becca

millionrainbows said:


> Gender is just an identity, right? It is separate from sexual orientation and biological sex.
> 
> So, you could be born as a male, who identifies as a woman, and who likes kitchen appliances.





> That is correct although it is far more than "just an identity", it is a hard-wired part of the brain. To put it crudely, sex is what is between your legs and gender is what is between your ears.


...................................


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## Fran

Very interesting thread, thanks! IMO gender does not define who you are but your gender experience certainly does affect your music whether as composer, performer or indeed listener. Last summer I attended the Trans-Health conference in Philadelphia and was struck by the unity amongst the 2000+ attendees at varying stages of transition or non-transition, professionals and partners/families of those with gender non-conformity characteristics. What I have to say is that the positiveness that abounded was truly inspirational. The only other time I've experienced such a similar atmosphere has been at WOMEX, the world music expo. Music is our bond here, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexuality... Isn't it wonderful that we have such a gift to unite us?!?


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## Abraham Lincoln

I wanted to say something about the Symphonia composers technically being transgender in a sort of way since they used to be dudes back when they were alive but I fear it would be considered in bad taste.


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## polygarbo

*Transgender composers*



MoonlightSonata said:


> I can't think of any transgender composers besides Wendy Carlos - surely she's not the only one? Some estimates say that as many as 2-5% of people could be transgender, so, statistically, shouldn't there be more?
> Just curious.


I also thought about Michelle Joseph (formerly Bohdan Hluszko), is a Canadian musician and transgender activist. According to wikipedia: "Under her former name, Josef was already established as one of Canada's leading session drummers, and has continued her career in music. She has appeared on albums by Prairie Oyster,[2] Doug Sahm, Jo-El Sonnier, Wild Strawberries, Sylvia Tyson, Long John Baldry, Scott B. Sympathy, Big Rude Jake, and Sharon, Lois and Bram. She is a member of Canadian roots super group Hey Stella! In 1998, she received a Canadian Country Music Award for drummer of the year"


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## Pugg

polygarbo said:


> I also thought about Michelle Joseph (formerly Bohdan Hluszko), is a Canadian musician and transgender activist. According to wikipedia: "Under her former name, Josef was already established as one of Canada's leading session drummers, and has continued her career in music. She has appeared on albums by Prairie Oyster,[2] Doug Sahm, Jo-El Sonnier, Wild Strawberries, Sylvia Tyson, Long John Baldry, Scott B. Sympathy, Big Rude Jake, and Sharon, Lois and Bram. She is a member of Canadian roots super group Hey Stella! In 1998, she received a Canadian Country Music Award for drummer of the year"


Good first post, welcome to Talk Classical .:tiphat:


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## SicFinitBellum

Before I begin, here's some educational clean-up: the basic template from which all human bodies begin is 'female'. The action of testosterone in-utero is what finalises the genitals and/or the brain as masculine or feminine . I say and/or because the mind is only defined -after- the genitalia have already taken form. The two occur weeks apart and are not a singular, simultaneous event in pregnancy. We may now be living in a world that can conveniently forget or invent facts whenever it likes, but this is basic biology.

Go read up on this if you're not educated on it, or otherwise cannot simply be pleasant enough to accept people for how they present, because the discussion of topics related to gender identity needs to not time-after-time-again enter a downward spiral that necessitates long educational preambles which are ultimately ignored when someone asserts their right to an uninformed or bigoted opinion as if that's a valid excuse in the 21st century, let alone a bottom-line to derailing the entire discussion. You may feel as if culturally-learned prejudices are your God-given right, but respect for those you encounter is the essence of the social contract that gives us civility rather than anarchy; even when these topics are not taught as part of your upbringing, you still need to do your part to be responsible and productive in rounding out your own enculturation, too (which, if you do not value this.. why. exactly, are you drawn to classical music?)

When in doubt, asking polite questions so you can get along is fine. But ask questions for the right reasons, not as a means of prying or bullying. More people than ever are trying to be thoughtful on diversity, and if anything we generally feel pity for spiteful people. You reap no respect by being closed-minded, especially when now more than ever you can expect to be in good, strong company and on the right side of history as an ally to people of diverse backgrounds.

I should add that there are also people who identify as neither explicitly male or female; rather, within a spectrum of gender that encompasses many hues, and these people often use neutral they/them pronouns. This, too, is a topic where even the larger LGBT community is still in the learning curve of how to be inclusive and non-assuming of others' identities on an individual basis, with all due patience and good-intentions.

As for why gender diversity happens? One example of the research to date indicates people have varying lengths of androgen (male hormone) receptors in the brain. Some receptors may not absorb such hormones as easily in-utero, or even at all. There are for instance XY people who, because their cells are unaffected by testosterone, grow up as, regard themselves as, and in essence are women. It would be as inappropriate to call one 'him' for being XY with internal testes as it would for a transitioned female, regardless of whether she has begun or completed her transition. Gender is still being widely researched, and you can expect to see paid shills coming out with outrageously dismissive claims in the coming years, but the legitimate, extant evidence increasingly suggests a physiological basis.

In other words, your own sense of being male or female is not 'in your brain'... it IS your brain! And because the brain is the seat of your consciousness and sense of who you are, those of you saying things like '100% female' or expressing disdain on this topic only show how very little you understand about the actual science of gender and personality. I implore you to read up on this fascinating area of study as a complement to your daily Brahms.

----

Now, as to the topic of transgender composition (since a lot of the earlier posts went pretty far astray.)

I attended the premiere of a piece titled Empyrean, performed just this year as the orchestral debut of a young composer named Kara Halcyon, that is dedicated to a transgender teen named Leelah Alcorn.

Leelah was essentially bullied, ostracised, and denied the ability to transition gender (i.e. present as female, take hormone blockers) to such an extent that she penned a plea for help and understanding on behalf of her and other trans kids, which ended up topping Reddit and Twitter almost exactly 2 years ago after Leelah died in a horrific suicide. Her parents had been fanatical in making it impossible for her to physically transition or socialise as female, and Leelah largely attributed her sense of hopelessness to being denied control of her own self.


__
https://soundcloud.com/karahalcyon%2Fempyrean

You can hear the sense of grace Kara's piece gives Leelah and her vision for the future, a dignity deserved but never known in life. It's a tender and elegiac work that evokes the heartbreaking story of silenced transgender youth with a monumental feel. Just imagine the relevance this piece will hold going into the future: a young composer's orchestral debut, marking a time of oppression that will seem unconscionably dark and barbaric to the next generations. (Of course, "Those who cannot remember the past...")

As to Halcyon, I listened to her composing livestream last year: definitely a one-of-a-kind talent. If you ask me, only a composer with a lot of maturity and life experience could have handled Leelah's story with such masterful contemplation and care.

Maybe that's part of what makes an artist - being thoughtful enough to help others imagine another perspective on what life can be for our future. We would all do well to marinate on that for a minute.

SFB


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## Pugg

SicFinitBellum said:


> Before I begin, here's some educational clean-up: the basic template from which all human bodies begin is 'female'. The action of testosterone in-utero is what finalises the genitals and/or the brain as masculine or feminine . I say and/or because the mind is only defined -after- the genitalia have already taken form. The two occur weeks apart and are not a singular, simultaneous event in pregnancy. We may now be living in a world that can conveniently forget or invent facts whenever it likes, but this is basic biology.
> 
> Go read up on this if you're not educated on it, or otherwise cannot simply be pleasant enough to accept people for how they present, because the discussion of topics related to gender identity needs to not time-after-time-again enter a downward spiral that necessitates long educational preambles which are ultimately ignored when someone asserts their right to an uninformed or bigoted opinion as if that's a valid excuse in the 21st century, let alone a bottom-line to derailing the entire discussion. You may feel as if culturally-learned prejudices are your God-given right, but respect for those you encounter is the essence of the social contract that gives us civility rather than anarchy; even when these topics are not taught as part of your upbringing, you still need to do your part to be responsible and productive in rounding out your own enculturation, too (which, if you do not value this.. why. exactly, are you drawn to classical music?)
> 
> When in doubt, asking polite questions so you can get along is fine. But ask questions for the right reasons, not as a means of prying or bullying. More people than ever are trying to be thoughtful on diversity, and if anything we generally feel pity for spiteful people. You reap no respect by being closed-minded, especially when now more than ever you can expect to be in good, strong company and on the right side of history as an ally to people of diverse backgrounds.
> 
> I should add that there are also people who identify as neither explicitly male or female; rather, within a spectrum of gender that encompasses many hues, and these people often use neutral they/them pronouns. This, too, is a topic where even the larger LGBT community is still in the learning curve of how to be inclusive and non-assuming of others' identities on an individual basis, with all due patience and good-intentions.
> 
> As for why gender diversity happens? One example of the research to date indicates people have varying lengths of androgen (male hormone) receptors in the brain. Some receptors may not absorb such hormones as easily in-utero, or even at all. There are for instance XY people who, because their cells are unaffected by testosterone, grow up as, regard themselves as, and in essence are women. It would be as inappropriate to call one 'him' for being XY with internal testes as it would for a transitioned female, regardless of whether she has begun or completed her transition. Gender is still being widely researched, and you can expect to see paid shills coming out with outrageously dismissive claims in the coming years, but the legitimate, extant evidence increasingly suggests a physiological basis.
> 
> In other words, your own sense of being male or female is not 'in your brain'... it IS your brain! And because the brain is the seat of your consciousness and sense of who you are, those of you saying things like '100% female' or expressing disdain on this topic only show how very little you understand about the actual science of gender and personality. I implore you to read up on this fascinating area of study as a complement to your daily Brahms.
> 
> ----
> 
> Now, as to the topic of transgender composition (since a lot of the earlier posts went pretty far astray.)
> 
> I attended the premiere of a piece titled Empyrean, performed just this year as the orchestral debut of a young composer named Kara Halcyon, that is dedicated to a transgender teen named Leelah Alcorn.
> 
> Leelah was essentially bullied, ostracised, and denied the ability to transition gender (i.e. present as female, take hormone blockers) to such an extent that she penned a plea for help and understanding on behalf of her and other trans kids, which ended up topping Reddit and Twitter almost exactly 2 years ago after Leelah died in a horrific suicide. Her parents had been fanatical in making it impossible for her to physically transition or socialise as female, and Leelah largely attributed her sense of hopelessness to being denied control of her own self.
> 
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/karahalcyon%2Fempyrean
> 
> You can hear the sense of grace Kara's piece gives Leelah and her vision for the future, a dignity deserved but never known in life. It's a tender and elegiac work that evokes the heartbreaking story of silenced transgender youth with a monumental feel. Just imagine the relevance this piece will hold going into the future: a young composer's orchestral debut, marking a time of oppression that will seem unconscionably dark and barbaric to the next generations. (Of course, "Those who cannot remember the past...")
> 
> As to Halcyon, I listened to her composing livestream last year: definitely a one-of-a-kind talent. If you ask me, only a composer with a lot of maturity and life experience could have handled Leelah's story with such masterful contemplation and care.
> 
> Maybe that's part of what makes an artist - being thoughtful enough to help others imagine another perspective on what life can be for our future. We would all do well to marinate on that for a minute.
> 
> SFB


Interesting reading, thank you for that .


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## starthrower

Hey, I wanna know which bathroom they use? It's a big issue over here right now!


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## SicFinitBellum

starthrower said:


> Hey, I wanna know which bathroom they use? It's a big issue over here right now!


I'd like to help redirect the focus towards the topic at hand, and your question is completely unrelated to it.



SicFinitBellum said:


> When in doubt, asking polite questions *so you can get along* is fine. But ask questions for the right reasons, *not as a means of prying* or bullying.


I already clarified more than I would have liked to deem necessary about the nature of gender diversity, and I pointed out that much of understanding gender diversity needs to be a good faith effort on your own part. I suggest trying a simple google search rather than expecting posters to genuflect to every imaginable question on the topic until we no longer really have a topic.



SicFinitBellum said:


> ...the discussion of topics related to gender identity needs to not time-after-time-again enter a downward spiral that necessitates long educational preambles which are ultimately ignored...


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## Retrograde Inversion

You know, most people don't come on to a (non-political) forum by reviving an old thread with the intent of delivering a lecture with their first post.


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## SicFinitBellum

Retrograde Inversion said:


> You know, most people don't come on to a (non-political) forum by reviving an old thread with the intent of delivering a lecture with their first post.


The thread is about transgender composers - if this is political to you and you don't like it, perhaps you should stay out of it and withhold your judgment. I saw a lot of inflammatory posts (here, and elsewhere on the forum) and decided to offer what nobody had actually yet contributed - a clearly necessary educational preface, followed by an example of transgender representation in the field of contemporary music composition, _which is what the thread was actually supposed to discuss in the first place._

I am actually no stranger to this forum, or others. And clearly your post is another effort to distract from the actual topic by means of intimidation. How ever would we get by without such insightful contributions?

But in sincerity, thank you Pugg for a relevant and considerate reply.


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## hpowders

If you discovered that Beethoven and Brahms were actually transgender, which is possible, since neither married and had kids, would that fact alone cause you to respect them less and curtail your listening to their music?


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## Judith

hpowders said:


> If you discovered that Beethoven and Brahms were actually transgender, which is possible, since neither married and had kids, would that fact alone cause you to respect them less and curtail your listening to their music?


Definitely not!! I wouldn't care less. I love them for their music. Brahms is one of my favourite composers and would not change my tastes whatsoever!!


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## starthrower

SicFinitBellum said:


> I'd like to help redirect the focus towards the topic at hand, and your question is completely unrelated to it.


Thanks for getting the gist of my post!


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## Nereffid

SicFinitBellum said:


> The thread is about transgender composers - if this is political to you and you don't like it, perhaps you should stay out of it and withhold your judgment. I saw a lot of inflammatory posts (here, and elsewhere on the forum) and decided to offer what nobody had actually yet contributed - a clearly necessary educational preface, followed by an example of transgender representation in the field of contemporary music composition, _which is what the thread was actually supposed to discuss in the first place._
> 
> I am actually no stranger to this forum, or others. And clearly your post is another effort to distract from the actual topic by means of intimidation. How ever would we get by without such insightful contributions?
> 
> But in sincerity, thank you Pugg for a relevant and considerate reply.


If your first contribution to TC is to make use of a "teachable moment" then I'm all for that. :tiphat:

Hope you stick around for all the other, more trivial, nonsense TC has to offer!


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## Nate Miller

hpowders said:


> If you discovered that Beethoven and Brahms were actually transgender, which is possible, since neither married and had kids, would that fact alone cause you to respect them less and curtail your listening to their music?


of course not, but the flip side of that is that I'm not going to respect a musician or composer just because they are a transgendered person either.

Wendy Carlos, to me when I was growing up, was more about playing Bach on synthesizers than about her being the former Walter Carlos. I mean, that was the record I had, "Switched On Bach". That's what I was paying attention to. But even at that, I could only take the synth music in small doses, which had nothing at all to do with transgender issues.

but I'm not any sort of an activist, either. I'm just a working musician in a small market town


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## Guest

After thinking of a half dozen funny things to post I have changed my mind. I will leave this thread and try very hard never to open it again.


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## Pugg

Jerome said:


> After thinking of a half dozen funny things to post I have changed my mind. I will leave this thread and try very hard never to open it again.


I am so curious.......


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## vlncto

Kerstin Thieme (born Karl Thieme, 1909-2001)
Christine Caulfield (born Patrick Caulfield, born ~1965)


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## Barelytenor

You know, I thought about this thread some and realized there are so many more interesting things about composers than what gender they are, what gender they used to be. How about, _what kind of music did they write, and is it any good?_

For that matter, I don't really care if anyone is gay, straight, bi, pansexual (a term I first heard in relation to Marlene Dietrich; not sure I want to know what all that entails), or prefers, well, anything else, as long as they harm no one (preferably including themselves). Why does anyone care? Live and let live.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## hpowders

Judith said:


> Definitely not!! I wouldn't care less. I love them for their music. Brahms is one of my favourite composers and would not change my tastes whatsoever!!


Glad to hear it!


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## SicFinitBellum

@vincto - Interesting. How did you find these composers? I listened to some of Caulfield's music, but could find nothing on Thieme.

@Nereffid - Thanks a bunch! Cheers to you.

Also kind regards to @DeliciousManager for the earlier list that I missed - nice to have some new names to check out.



Barelytenor said:


> You know, I thought about this thread some and realized there are so many more interesting things about composers than what gender they are, what gender they used to be. How about, _what kind of music did they write, and is it any good?_
> 
> For that matter, I don't really care if anyone is gay, straight, bi, pansexual (a term I first heard in relation to Marlene Dietrich; not sure I want to know what all that entails), or prefers, well, anything else, as long as they harm no one (preferably including themselves). Why does anyone care? Live and let live.


You know, I've contemplated the same point as you did quite a lot, too; and while equanimity is great in idyllic settings where all factors are equal, this is a case where they are certainly not. Indifference is nice when it signifies purely a lack of prejudice, but it can easily be led to serve the unmotivated, dismissive arm of the same. We can count the number of gender-identity related works or composers we've listed here on just two hands, showing how novel a category this is even in our own general awareness.

I must detest the fixation on ideas like "what sex someone used to live as." For many trans people, the past holds no memories worth dignifying, which is why so many try to simply move on after transition and act as if life was never any different. Given that society tends to view trans people from the selfish angle of invasive curiosities fuelled by a lack of basic subject-level education, that intense degree of secrecy has, sadly, been well-justified; yet does it not enable the persistent fear that somehow trans women, in particular, are a lurking threat of some kind - deceivers bent on tricking men into homosexual relationships, rather than just women trying to live their lives authentically? It would be like expecting a child to comprehend the storybook you're reading them, when they aren't listening and are only reacting to the pictures.

I say this because gender and minority status have become arguably as important in characterising a modern composer as nationality was prior to the mid-20th century or so. If I say Respighi, you think Italy - Victoria, the counter-reformation comes to mind - Stravinsky, it's the diaspora of Russian artists into Paris and elsewhere during their revolutions. These are things we just know about our composers, all of whom have fabled backgrounds - some with more immediacy, drama, or peril than others.

What if you had a population that hails from all cultural backgrounds, tends to be highly intelligent and creative, but also faces such profound adversity as to have about a 50% chance of a suicide attempt by age 20? (See the Williams Institute study.) That's transgender people, and before the past decade or so, most people thought of them as so on the absolute fringes of the social strata as to be almost a myth or fable. Current teens and millennials tend to be more understanding and accepting of their gender diverse peers, who themselves tend to have less of a stigma regarding their own identities than older generations, and many now transition in their teens or 20's rather than suffering silently for decades in an identity conflict.

You can try to pretend music is just music, like wallpaper, but it isn't. Obviously the aesthetic qualities and artistic merit of the music are valuable - that goes without saying. But every piece of music has a title, an origin, and every single composer that history remembers is better appreciated in the context of their background, setting, for whom or why they wrote, what their music is about, and so on.

We care about the stories behind our composers, our performers, and our music. It is good to see that these stories are finally being told, which is why I wished to share Empyrean with you. I'm glad to see so many open hearts ready to hear such music.

May you be well,
SFB


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## Nereffid

Barelytenor said:


> You know, I thought about this thread some and realized there are so many more interesting things about composers than what gender they are, what gender they used to be. How about, _what kind of music did they write, and is it any good?_
> 
> For that matter, I don't really care if anyone is gay, straight, bi, pansexual (a term I first heard in relation to Marlene Dietrich; not sure I want to know what all that entails), or prefers, well, anything else, as long as they harm no one (preferably including themselves). Why does anyone care? Live and let live.


I think the best argument for discussing such issues is that it (a) can offer positive examples or inspiration to those who face a struggle in their lives because they themselves are transgender, and (b) can counter those who for whatever reason have a negative perspective on transgender people.

It's a commendable attitude to say "live and let live", but accompanying that with "so let's not talk about the topic at all" kind of undercuts it, I think.

It doesn't matter to me on an individual level whether a composer is transgender, or female, or a member of an ethnic minority, or whatever; but on the broader level it's of interest to me whether the overall population of composers is significantly different from what might be expected, and why that might be.


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## Barelytenor

I didn't say "so let's not talk about the topic at all," I merely said I'm not that interested in this thread. 

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## Francis Poulenc

Transgender composers?

Give me a break.


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## regenmusic

I guess we can agree to stay out of a thread that calls traditional values bigoted.


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## Becca

Ahh yes, traditional values, where would be without that overused and under-defined excuse for the status quo?


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## Casebearer

I think it's a good thing this is discussed here because many people suffer from not being accepted for the person they are. 

I want to address a separate matter in this discussion: the relation between identities and language. I haven't thought about it that much but I think there is a big problem there. 

Apart from music I'm very much into biology (as a field of interest, not professionally). One of the first things I learned is that biological concepts you tend to think about as being well-defined and unproblematic tend to be 'not so simple'. For instance the species concept but also the division between the realms of plants and animals. Our language on biological subjects (which is a part of culture on which traditional values are founded) tends to mislead us on what is out there in the real world. Many biological divisions are not clearcut dichotomies. Often in reality there is some sort of continuum or there are so many exceptions to the rule that it is hard to keep the rule. In my opinion our common culture and language are not up to date with our biological knowledge. Traditional values are a problem but at the root of that lies that our language is deficient. Every word is a minitheory. When all the common words we use are wrong to describe biological reality how can we ever improve our valuesystem.

I'm not on Facebook but I've read somewhere Facebook let's you choose out of 56 gender identities. I'm not sure if that's still the case but I doubt that's the way to go, even though it probably better reflects biological reality. Apart from the fact that I don't like companies telling me what language or classification to use I think 56 is far too much to ever be a part of common language. I also suspect it'll need constant reviews as with the DSM-classification. 

So on the one hand 56 gender identities might be better - probably not even enough - to describe gender identities, on the other hand I doubt they will ever become part of common language so it doesn't help that much in the public debate. This is not something that seems easy to resolve to me. A more practical way to solve at least part of the problem seems to me to refrain from referring to gender where gender has nothing to do with the subject at hand. E.g. in 99% of the forms we fill in during our lives apart from our name we have to fill in our gender (m/f) and a lot of other stuff. We could start stop doing that where it's irrelevant.


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## Nereffid

Barelytenor said:


> I didn't say "so let's not talk about the topic at all," I merely said I'm not that interested in this thread.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> George


Fair enough - I didn't want to start a fight anyway! :tiphat:

Still, though, if you weren't interested in the thread, why waste your time telling us?


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## Nereffid

Casebearer said:


> I'm not on Facebook but I've read somewhere Facebook let's you choose out of 56 gender identities.


Just tried editing my Facebook profile and there are 3: male, female and custom (which you define yourself).


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## Casebearer

Maybe the idea has been abandoned later. I read it in this blog from 2014 on a Dutch site. Maybe you can have it translated by Google

https://www.vice.com/nl/article/waarom-kun-je-op-facebook-kiezen-uit-meer-dan-50-genderidentiteiten.

Good thing that Facebook has chosen for 'custom' as the third option.


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## Francis Poulenc

Becca said:


> Ahh yes, traditional values, where would be without that overused and under-defined excuse for the status quo?


Not everybody here is a big-city liberal. I would argue that most are not.


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## bz3

The less info I have on peoples' gonads the better, I've found. From grooming to girth, from length to leakiness, and from position to transposition to transience - I don't care. If physiology has become political then politics is dead - we're just slaves who have to argue about whether a toe is a finger or a thumb, and resultantly the true politics of our time have been decided for us by our masters.


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## Pugg

bz3 said:


> The less info I have on peoples' gonads the better, I've found. From grooming to girth, from length to leakiness, and from position to transposition to transience - I don't care. If physiology has become political then politics is dead - we're just slaves who have to argue about whether a toe is a finger or a thumb, and resultantly the true politics of our time have been decided for us by our masters.


Firm and wise statement.


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