# A work better than your favorite composers



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Is there a piece of music you find better than all of the works from one of your favorite composers?

For instance, I love Dvorak, and am not a huge Beethoven fan, but I always thought Beethoven's 6th is better than anything Dvorak wrote.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

And part 2, optional: Someone recommends a piece by your favorite composer they think is better than the work you cited.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Ethereality said:


> Is there a piece of music you find better than all of the works from one of your favorite composers?
> 
> For instance, I love Dvorak, and am not a huge Beethoven fan, but I always thought Beethoven's 6th is better than anything Dvorak wrote.


I think you mean: "is there a composition *by a composer* *who you are not a huge fan of* that you find better than all of the works from one of your favorite composers?"

I can answer my edited version of your question. I have thought about this and the answer is simply no. If there is such a solid composition then what I have consistently done is branch out to listen to a lot more of this particular composer's oeuvre to find more great works. So far, any such situations have consistently led me to only discover great composers.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> Is there a piece of music you find better than all of the works from one of your favorite composers?
> 
> For instance, I love Dvorak, and am not a huge Beethoven fan, but I always thought Beethoven's 6th is better than anything Dvorak wrote.


No, this has not been my experience.

But if your favourite composers are such like Dvorak this thing is bound to happen as there are greater composers with greater works.

No offence intended, I like Dvorak, but I think its true.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Ethereality said:


> And part 2, optional: Someone recommends a piece by your favorite composer they think is better than the work you cited.


Again, no because it is a collorary from the first part.

The closest example might be one single aria from an entire opera. For example I think the _Duo des fleurs_ aria by Delibes from _Lakmé_ is as good as any great aria but the rest of the opera is rather uneventful as is much of Delibes' operas. I would hardly consider Delibes greater than Handel or Mozart.

You might need to give Beethoven a deeper exploration.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I interpret it differently. Firstly, you bring up a solid point: Dvorak is not in my Top 10, yet I'm not truly sure he was even outdone by Beethoven's 6th anymore. Your point is slightly convincing. As others are biased towards The Big 3, the circle of what greatness is unfortunately narrows in communities, and I might have become biased towards them too. I think it could be the case Dvorak wrote the better work.

But, these happenstances can occur from time to time where a composer writes a great work nearly as good as x composer. It might not happen with everyone. In the case of Beethoven, it's so variant from his other compositions, which I have explored far deeply enough. He brings his greater form again to the 6th, but Dvorak is just a better composer overall, to me.

Using your likelihood methodology, the 6th might *not* be better than Dvorak's best works. Thanks for bringing your point into consideration!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

ArtMusic said:


> The closest example might be one single aria from an entire opera. For example I think the _Duo des fleurs_ aria by Delibes from _Lakmé_ is as good as any great aria but the rest of the opera is rather uneventful as is much of Delibes' operas. I would hardly consider Delibes greater than Handel or Mozart.


Oh, thanks for giving it a go.

In another vein, any chance that a composer tries something new, they might succeed at influencing someone. I can't say it's Beethoven's greatness that provoked me, but rather his luck or change of inspiration and method that ended up good. After all, he was very experimental. I lack more examples of top quality from him to confirm 'This is a great composer.'


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> Is there a piece of music you find better than all of the works from one of your favorite composers?
> 
> For instance, I love Dvorak, and am not a huge Beethoven fan, but I always thought Beethoven's 6th is better than anything Dvorak wrote.


Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is definitely a charming work, and deservedly popular. But is it even Beethoven's greatest work? I doubt it. Debussy thought it was weaker than the 5th and 7th at least.

I feel Dvorak's Cello Concerto, American Quartet, Piano Quintet, Symphonies 8 and 9 are stronger than the Pastoral Symphony personally, as in greater sense of purpose.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Thanks for your feedback and opinion!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> Is there a piece of music you find better than all of the works from one of your favorite composers?


No. The main reason why I think of a composer as a favorite is because he wrote at least one work that I feel deeply about.

*Maurice Duruflé*'s _Requiem_ was immediately a favorite work and from then on I thought of him as a favorite composer of mine based on that single work. It was only much later that I listened to his organ music and other choral works. I have since grown to appreciate them as well. However, his _Requiem_ is still far and away my favorite work of his.

I can't think of any work that I love by a composer not written by one of my favorites. I have about 100 composers who've written at least one work that is important to me. Beyond that, I listen to new music instead of delving into more composers from previous periods.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I can only make a very short list of favorite composers because there are only some who are consistently great. My list of favorite pieces looks much longer and different.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Beethoven has never been one of my great favorites among composers; however, I experience greater enjoyment from his Triple Concerto than any piece written by Haydn who happens to be one of my favorites. I also suspect the overwhelming number of big Beethoven fans derive less satisfaction from the "Triple" than most of Beethoven's symphonies and other concertos.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

My absolute favorite works of all time are mostly by Beethoven and Bach. Handel's Messiah and two works from Schubert are thrown in. 

My two favorite composers are...Beethoven and Bach. Schubert is currently my #6, and Handel is somewhere in my top 15.

So, mostly no. However, Haydn is my #5, and many have composed better works than he did. Haydn is as high as he is in my list because of his volume of good to great works, not because he composed anything as good as The Rite of Spring, Mahler's Symphony no. 2, or BWV 582.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

ORigel said:


> Haydn is as high as he is in my list because of his volume of good to great works, not because he composed anything as good as The Rite of Spring, Mahler's Symphony no. 2, or BWV 582.


Thanks. This sounds like a yes to the question. Although it's a more mainstream opinion ie. 'Rite of Spring' 'Mahler's 2nd', it fits even more extreme than mine, where Haydn is all the way at your no. 5. Thanks for sharing your example.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm a fan of symphonies. The "masters" have produced a fine share of great symphonies. Still, I've long maintained that my favorite symphony is the Second Symphony "The Romantic" by American composer Howard Hanson. No, it's not the greatest symphony, the most accomplished, the most influential, the most original ... whatever. In fact, it proves rather old-fashioned for its time and kind of derivative of Romantic era symphonies (for which it is appropriately named), but I love the work. It's my favorite symphony.

Hanson is not my favorite composer by a long stretch. I would argue Bach and Beethoven on any given day, except for maybe March 31 when I'll take Haydn. And Dvorak, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, Bruckner, Prokofiev, and many many others have produced a fine body of symphonies of which I value more than one. But for a long while now, maybe since my first hearing of that Hanson Second, the "Romantic" has been my favorite symphony.

And I haven't even thought about what is in second place.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

SONNET CLV said:


> No, it's not the greatest symphony, the most accomplished, the most influential, the most original ... whatever. In fact, it proves rather old-fashioned for its time and kind of derivative of Romantic era symphonies (for which it is appropriately named)


Don't know what all _this_ nonsense means, but mmm it is one of the best symphonies for sure! Your notion of greatest symphony could be likely.

I'm supposed to chime in with question part 2, but I can't think of anything better than it by Beethoven or Bach. Maybe someone else can.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

My favorite composer is Mahler.

But there are many l individual works that I like better than his collective works.

Some of them are:
Walton: _Belshazzar's Feast _
Verdi: _Requiem_
Britten: _War Requiem_
Hindemith: _Symphony in Bb_


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

If we talk about better than anything by my favourite composer*s*, none - my favourite piece of music is Das Lied von der Erde, and Mahler is my second favourite composer. If we limit it to the single most favourite composer, then there would be two compositions I prefer over anything by my #1 Bach (Mahler DLVDE, Bruckner's 9th).


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Beethoven has never been one of my great favorites among composers; however, I experience greater enjoyment from his Triple Concerto than any piece written by Haydn who happens to be one of my favorites. I also suspect the overwhelming number of big Beethoven fans derive less satisfaction from the "Triple" than most of Beethoven's symphonies and other concertos.


That is interesting. Personally I find the Triple concerto to be a weak piece. Not a criticism of you its just interesting that its one your favourites.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

What means better? Overall greatness or quality per length?

My favorite work of my favorite composer is Bruckners 8th symphony.

Wagners Ring des Nibelungen is probably overall greater.

I 'm not sure if there are works with more quality per length then Bruckners 8th. 

Maybe: 
- Georgy Sviridov: Snowstorm suite
- Bernard Herrmann: Vertigo suite
- Pjotr Tchaikovsky: 1812 (pure orchestral version)
- Hugo Alfven: Swedish Rhapsody No. 1
- Jean Sibelius: Finlandia

But just maybe.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

It changes with time I guess. I am for example a Beethovenian, but most of the times I consider Mahler’s 5th as my absolute favourite.
What never changes though is my love for all Beethoven works, whether I rank as my number 1 any particular point in time or not doesn’t matter, they are always among my top.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Haydn is one of my favorite composers (certainly among my top 30) and yet I enjoy Giazotto's adagio more than anything I know by him.



SONNET CLV said:


> I'm a fan of symphonies. The "masters" have produced a fine share of great symphonies. Still, I've long maintained that my favorite symphony is the Second Symphony "The Romantic" by American composer Howard Hanson. No, it's not the greatest symphony, the most accomplished, the most influential, the most original ... whatever. In fact, it proves rather old-fashioned for its time and kind of derivative of Romantic era symphonies (for which it is appropriately named), but I love the work. It's my favorite symphony.


Symphonies are my favorite CM genre overall, and I also happen to quite enjoy Hanson's "Romantic" symphony. :tiphat: Do you have a particular performance in mind when listening to it?


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Allerius said:


> ... I also happen to quite enjoy Hanson's "Romantic" symphony. :tiphat: Do you have a particular performance in mind when listening to it?


According to my Discogs catalog, I have copies of this symphony featuring Erich Kunzel & Cincinnati Pops Orchestra, Leonard Slatkin & Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra, and Gerard Schwarz & The Seattle Symphony, all of them fine. But my favorite, even with its less than "best modern recording" sound remains that famed 1958 version featuring the composer himself conducting the Eastman-Rochester Orchestra, which I have in several recorded versions and media (LP, CD, SACD). My favorite of those, for the quality of sound (as well as the performance), is this SACD version:









This Mercury Living Presence, Japanese manufactured SACD presents, for the first time, the composer's celebrated interpretations in their original 3-channel (left, right & centre) versions, a 3-channel direct-to-DSD transfer from original analogue masters.

The "Romantic" was originally recorded on 5/4/58; one 201 and two M56 Telefunken microphones were used to capture the performance. All sessions were held in the Eastman Theatre, Rochester, N.Y. and 3 track half-inch tape was used for the recording.

I also have a copy of the "Romantic" recorded by Hanson and the Eastman Rochester in 1940. It appears on the Valis Records label, Valis003. Of course the sound is inferior to the '58 recording, but this version captures the work just ten years after its premiere (by the Boston Symphony under Koussevitzky). Timings are revealing.

Hanson's 1940 version presents movement timings of (1) 15:00, (2) 07:27, and (3) 07:05, while the 1958 recording is as follows: (1) 13:59, (2) 6:36, and (3) 7:19.

In the mid 1980's I spent a summer on a National Endowment for the Humanities Fellowship at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia where I had access to the music library of the school. I checked out the score of the Hanson symphony and spent many an hour poring over the document, often while lounging beside the pool at the luxury apartment complex the Fellowship grant had provided. I didn't need to hear the music in order to "hear" and appreciate the symphony (in my mind) while reading the score, I knew the work so well. It's one of those pieces I never tire of and that I can still hum through while, say, fishing or cutting the lawn. A masterful work of musical art, one that appeals to everything I love about music.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> That is interesting. Personally I find the Triple concerto to be a weak piece. Not a criticism of you its just interesting that its one your favourites.


Yes, I've noticed similar comments from other Beethoven fans regarding the Triple Concerto. Perhaps they feel it lacks or is short on inventiveness. For me, this is not a factor, especially when I'm deriving such a pleasurable measure of aesthetic fulfillment from both individual and collective expression. The middle movement is particularly lovely.

I've seen similar references to deficiency levelled at Brahms' Double Concerto, but nonetheless hear it as a work containing lyrical and engaging instrumental interplay.

Once again, long live differences in taste. :cheers:


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> According to my Discogs catalog, I have copies of this symphony featuring Erich Kunzel & Cincinnati Pops Orchestra, Leonard Slatkin & Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra, and Gerard Schwarz & The Seattle Symphony, all of them fine. But my favorite, even with its less than "best modern recording" sound remains that famed 1958 version featuring the composer himself conducting the Eastman-Rochester Orchestra, which I have in several recorded versions and media (LP, CD, SACD). My favorite of those, for the quality of sound (as well as the performance), is this SACD version:
> 
> This Mercury Living Presence, Japanese manufactured SACD presents, for the first time, the composer's celebrated interpretations in their original 3-channel (left, right & centre) versions, a 3-channel direct-to-DSD transfer from original analogue masters.
> 
> ...


I find your enthusiast for this symphony contagious! Thanks for all the great info. 



Brahmsian Colors said:


> Yes, I've noticed similar comments from other Beethoven fans regarding the Triple Concerto. Perhaps they feel it lacks or is short on inventiveness. For me, this is not a factor, especially when I'm deriving such a pleasurable measure of aesthetic fulfillment from both individual and collective expression. The middle movement is particularly lovely.


Not that it really matters, but I'm a Beethoven fan and I love the Triple Concerto.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Slightly off the original topic but, for me, Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, Beethoven's 9th Symphony, and Dvorak's Cello Concerto collectively beat every other composition by any composer in all of civilization.

Definitely a subjective opinion, but that's how I see them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Yes, I've noticed similar comments from other Beethoven fans regarding the Triple Concerto. Perhaps they feel it lacks or is short on inventiveness. For me, this is not a factor, especially when I'm deriving such a pleasurable measure of aesthetic fulfillment from both individual and collective expression. The middle movement is particularly lovely.


My father, who is fond of several of Beethoven's piano sonatas, Romance in F, violin concerto, various chamber works, etc, thinks highly of the final movement of the Triple concerto (the way the instruments "fight each other" in it), and Rostropovich. Strangely, he detests the music of Brahms, which he regards as "full of angry bashing"; lacking the "melodic sense" of Beethoven.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

btw, the final movement of the triple concerto reminds me of:


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

An observation from the sidelines: It's surprising to me how many people know who their seventh favorite composer is or what their fourth favorite symphony is. Is this normal? Do y'all have this stuff written down somewhere?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

EdwardBast said:


> Is this normal?


Yes, uh, no, uh, maybe.. what?



> Do y'all have this stuff written down somewhere?


I have.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> My father.....detests the music of Brahms, which he regards as "full of angry bashing"; lacking the "melodic sense" of Beethoven.


Brahms...."angry bashing"[?]  I wouldn't argue with anyone who was inclined to substitute Beethoven's name for Brahms's. :lol: Since misunderstandings sometimes arise without face to face conversation, I will simply say I have no hard feelings here, and I wish your dad good listening. :tiphat:


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I am not a big fan of Dvorak, though I like his late orchestral and chamber pieces. However, I think his cello concerto is my favorite piece for cello and orchestra and I could not find a better one among my favorite composers, such as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> An observation from the sidelines: It's surprising to me how many people know who their seventh favorite composer is or what their fourth favorite symphony is. Is this normal? Do y'all have this stuff written down somewhere?


Truly. I don't even know who or what my first favorite anyone or anything is. (Well, OK, my favorite opera is _Parsifal,_ and I don't care what that says about me.)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

In general, no. But maybe genre-specific. E.g. I prefer Dvorak's cello concerto to any of Haydn's although the latter is overall more of a favorite than Dvorak. Franck's violin sonata might be my overall favorite violin sonata but as a composer Franck would not make my top 20.


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