# Elusive Symphony



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I have an idea: Elusive Symphony!

An orchestral piece of which the conductor and the players would not be able to see the score beforehand. So every performance would be prima vista. There would be only one copy of the partiture and parts. Every orchestra and every player would be allowed to play the piece only once and all recordings in any format would be strictly forbidden.

So you could only hear and get to know the music in a concert! The Elusive Symphony would in a mysterious manner jump from one orchestra to another! Every performance would surely be unique!

I am yet to decide whether describing the music in words in public would be inadvicable.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Build a time machine. Until the advent of electronics - radio, records, TV, computers - your description is pretty close to how music was heard 100 years ago and earlier. The ONLY way you could hear the great symphonies was in a concert and then you might only hear the piece once in your whole life. Many orchestral works were performed from the only existing set of parts; even well-known composers often had to beg and wait for years for new works to be printed for mass dissemination. The Elusive Symphony was pretty common, I suspect. And yet in some ways it was a much healthier musical world - orchestras played mostly new music rather than replaying the same old warhorses over and over.

Ever hear of the Portsmouth Sinfonia? They played concerts sight unseen, and recorded them!


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

The one and the only Elusive Symphony performance I have heard of is called Ainulindalë, has indeed been performed only once during the world's creation and I'm desperate to be able to listen to any snippet of it!
Several composers tried their hand at reconstructing the full score with only moderate success 

P.S. For curious Tolkien fans, here is the most interesting attempt: Jeremy Gill - Ainulindalë


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Does anyone know if composer Leif Segerstam has an "Elusive" symphony lurking among his some 300 plus symphonies.

Or might they _all_ be "elusive"?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> Does anyone know if composer Leif Segerstam has an "Elusive" symphony lurking among his some 300 plus symphonies.
> 
> Or might they _all_ be "elusive"?


At least a few have been recorded. They will and should remain elusive.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

The Mozart as super genius story that I liked best was of him, on one of his dad's prodigy tours, hearing a mass ( do elusive masses count?) once that was only played in that one church one day a year and coming out and writing the whole thing down! Been a long time since I heard the story or read it in Marcia Davenport so. I may have a bunch wrong...some of those details are so durn elusive!!!...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Build a time machine. Until the advent of electronics - radio, records, TV, computers - your description is pretty close to how music was heard 100 years ago and earlier. The ONLY way you could hear the great symphonies was in a concert and then you might only hear the piece once in your whole life. Many orchestral works were performed from the only existing set of parts; even well-known composers often had to beg and wait for years for new works to be printed for mass dissemination. The Elusive Symphony was pretty common, I suspect. And yet in some ways it was a much healthier musical world - orchestras played mostly new music rather than replaying the same old warhorses over and over.
> 
> Ever hear of the Portsmouth Sinfonia? They played concerts sight unseen, and recorded them!


 I don
t things were "better" back then in the way you describe. Yes, most music was new, but in the time of Haydn and Mozart, the orchestra as we know it was a recent invention . There hadn't enough been time for a. canon of. symphonies, concertos etc to come into existence . Even though the established symphonic masterpieces of the past are still popular, there is no lack of new music today , and there are more composers today than at any time in the past . 
We can hear an infinitely wider variety of repertoire today than. anyone could in the past. I dont think this is a bad thing at all .


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

ScottK said:


> The Mozart as super genius story that I liked best was of him, on one of his dad's prodigy tours, hearing a mass ( do elusive masses count?) once that was only played in that one church one day a year and coming out and writing the whole thing down! Been a long time since I heard the story or read it in Marcia Davenport so. I may have a bunch wrong...some of those details are so durn elusive!!!...


He once transcribed the Allegri Miserere after hearing it once in Rome - the piece was property of the Vatican and wasn't allowed to be performed elsewhere.
Truth is that the Miserere is a rather simple and repetitive work (still hauntingly beautiful though), so it wasn't that much of an act of genius. Still impressive for a young chap, though.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how a conductor could 'sight-read' a score in concert.
Everyone else, sure (with varying degrees of accuracy & ensemble) but not the conductor.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

RobertJTh said:


> He once transcribed the Allegri Miserere after hearing it once in Rome - the piece was property of the Vatican and wasn't allowed to be performed elsewhere.
> Truth is that the Miserere is a rather simple and repetitive work (still hauntingly beautiful though), so it wasn't that much of an act of genius. Still impressive for a young chap, though.


Actually, he heard it twice and had a keyboard to work it out on between the two hearings.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I think the most elusive symphony ever written is the mind-bogglingly gargantuan " Gothic symphony , for an orchestra larger than the ones required for Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder " and the Mahler 8th , plus several choruses , four vocal soloists , children's chorus four antiphonal. brass bands - more than the kitchen sink ! Naturally, it's had only about six or seven live performances , a couple of which were recorded live, and only one studio recording on Naxos, made in of all places Bratislava, Slovakia . And it lasts nearly two hours !


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

GraemeG said:


> I'm at a bit of a loss as to how a conductor could 'sight-read' a score in concert.
> Everyone else, sure (with varying degrees of accuracy & ensemble) but not the conductor.


As the producers of The Elusive Symphony Project, maybe we could kindly adjust the requirements made for the conductor?

The conductor could make themselves familiar with the symphony 3 hours before the performance. That should be enough to figure out the tempi and time signatures and make some plans on how to tackle the Elusive Beauty?


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

superhorn said:


> I think the most elusive symphony ever written is the mind-bogglingly gargantuan " Gothic symphony , for an orchestra larger than the ones required for Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder " and the Mahler 8th , plus several choruses , four vocal soloists , children's chorus four antiphonal. brass bands - more than the kitchen sink ! Naturally, it's had only about six or seven live performances , a couple of which were recorded live, and only one studio recording on Naxos, made in of all places Bratislava, Slovakia . And it lasts nearly two hours !


I wouldn't call it elusive. I've gotten to know it and it is a fine symphony. No more of a challenge than any of Mahler's lengthy works. A few listens and Havergal Brian's magnum opus will reveal its secrets to you.


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