# Introduce me to Schubert and Schumann.



## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Greetings. I'd like to get into Schubert and Schumann but I don't know where to start. Any suggestions as to what works to begin with and where to go from there? Thanks.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

You should start with their symphonies SCHUBERT HAS 10 & SCHUMANN HAS 4.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Unless you tell us where you are at now, suggestions are going to be more miss than hit. Genre - piano, chamber, vocal - does one or more of those move you, and if so composed by who?


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Ukko said:


> Unless you tell us where you are at now, suggestions are going to be more miss than hit. Genre - piano, chamber, vocal - does one or more of those move you, and if so composed by who?


As you can tell, I'm rather new to classical music. So far I mostly like the symphonies of Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and Brahms. Though I also like chamber music and concerti. All I know of Schumann is is violin concerto, which I like. I also like the first movement of his 1st symphony but the rest is kinda eh. Though I've only listened to it a few times and as is always the case with classical music, the more I listen to something the more I like it.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

For Schubert I'll recomend starting with Die Schone Mullerin, his first song cycle, or the famous Trout Quintet, but if you prefer symphonies, #8 and #9 are his best by far.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Schubert and Schumann are both known especially for their songs, but if you're not into classical (ie operatic) vocals then you probably won't like them here either.

Schubert's chamber music is excellent. Maybe you should listen to the String Quintet in C, and the later quartets as well.

Their piano works are thoroughly worthwhile: check out Schumann's Kreisleriana and Carnaval. I'm also fond of his Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra. Schumann's symphonies are occasionally criticized for having overly-thick textures. This is perhaps applicable in some parts, but not consistently throughout. My favorite Schumann Symphony is the Second, though the Third seems to be the most popular.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Welcome to the site, and to this wonderful music. I'm a bit of a Schubert nut so I can certainly offer some suggestions.

-9th Symphony - This is just an absolute joy. Start to finish. I find it to be the most complete symphony I've ever heard. I very much enjoy Bohm/Berlin and Muti/Vienna
-String and Piano Quintets - Both possibly the high water marks of their respective genres
-Impromptus - Beautiful and tranquil piano music
-Complete String Quartets - 14th being the most popular and typically rated as one of the greatest of the genre
-Octet in F - Absolutely beautiful

I'm not big on vocal music so this eliminates a huge portion of Schubert's repertoire for me. At least for the present time. He was the master of song though so perhaps the song cycle Winterreise would suit you if you enjoy vocals. It's been described as haunting. Below is a link that will not break your bank and will hopefully provide you with hours of listening pleasure. The Big Schubert Box and Rise of the Masters will cost you a collective $3.18 USD but provide you with oh so much. Schumann is also wonderful and similar options exist for him as well. Enjoy.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...chubert+box&sprefix=big+schubert+box,aps,1079


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the posts thus far.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

As others have said there is so much great music by both that it's hard to choose.

For Schubert I'd suggest Winterreise or Gretchen am Spinnrade (songs), or the 5th Symphony, or the sonatas D. 845 or 960 (piano), or the Trout Quintet (piano and 4 string players).

Schumann was at his best at the piano imho. Try the piano concerto (similar to the orchestral music you already know), or Kinderszenen (sweet and pretty), or Carnaval or the Fantasiestucke Op. 12 (darker and weirder.)


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

In addition, I highly recommend reading about Schubert's life and the revival of his music post-mortem. I was absolutely blown away by the respect Schubert paid to Beethoven and extremely moved by the selfless promotion of his music by mainly Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and Liszt. If not for those four, especially the first two, we might not be having this discussion. The fact that Mendelssohn and Schumann went out of their ways to promote the works of Schubert is something that has earned them my undying respect. You simply would not see many gestures like that in modern society. This may sound silly to some but I think many of you will understand my sentiment. I often think that both Beethoven and Schubert never got to hear their 9th Symphonies performed. How tragic is that? It's the musical equivalent of a heart transplant. If I had magical powers, I'd bring Schubert back to life and take him to a performance of his 9th Symphony. Can you imagine the look on his face? I'd also force him to finish all unfinished works but that's neither here nor there.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Never mind...performed was the word I was thinking...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Declined said:


> As you can tell, I'm rather new to classical music. So far I mostly like the symphonies of Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and Brahms. Though I also like chamber music and concerti. All I know of Schumann is is violin concerto, which I like. I also like the first movement of his 1st symphony but the rest is kinda eh. Though I've only listened to it a few times and as is always the case with classical music, the more I listen to something the more I like it.


You could let Schumann's symphonies set for awhile; they'll keep. Schubert's first two symphonies were composed for mediocre amateur musicians, and weren't exactly inspired anyway. The 3rd and 5th are good. Both those guys were piano-centric, especially Schumann, so when you get acclimated to piano sound there's some really good stuff waiting for you.


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## Guest (May 27, 2014)

I found all these pieces both wonderful AND accessible 

Schubert:
Winterreise
String Quartet No. 14
String Quintet
Piano Quintet
Piano Sonata No. 21
Symphony No. 8

Schumann:
Dichterliebe
Fantasy In C Major
Piano Concerto
Cello Concerto
Symphony No. 4
Geistervariationen (not a standard rec, though)


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

For Schubert, I would say the "Death and the maiden" string quartet and the 3rd and 8th ("Unfinished") symphonies are quite accessible. Personally I never really got into the Trout quintet, but it seems to be very popular.

As for Schumann, I would recommend the piano concerto (as others already have), and for his chamber music, the piano quintet, op. 44. (Am I really the only person on the planet who likes that quintet!?  )


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Declined, Welcome to the forum. I plunged deeply into Schubert's works just a few years ago. He was astonishingly creative and wrote so much in such a short life. If you get a chance, read about his career.

*I. STRING QUARTETS:* This is the side of Schubert that I know and enjoy most:

*_String Quartet #14 in D minor_, D810 _("Death & the Maiden")_: Favorite performance: Takács Quartet, _Schubert: Death & the Maiden_ (Hyperion, 2006). (But I've not heard the recent released by the Pavel Haas Quartet, which is a young Czech ensemble and one of the finest quartets working today). The Takacs are arguably the best string quartet working today (they have among the finest performances ever of the complete Bartok and complete Beethoven). This is one of the finest quartets in the whole string quartet repertoire.

*String Quartet #15 in G, D877: Favorite performance: Cuarteto Casals, _Schubert: String Quartets D.87 & D.877_ (Harmonia mundi, 2012). This final quartet is lengthy -- "epic" might be the better word for it. A work of deep expressiveness. The energy of this performance and Casals' subtlety (audible especially in the profound expressiveness of passages of what are, for others, mere passing sections) is simply astounding-and Harmonia mundi's quality of recording is superb.

















*II. OTHER CHAMBER WORKS:*

*_String Quintet in C_, D956: My favorite is another recent release: Takács Quartet & Ralph Kirshbaum, _Schubert: String Quintet D956, String Quartet D703 'Quartettsatz'_ (Hyperion, 2012).

*_Piano Trio in B flat major_, D898: My favorite performance is by the Florestan Trio (Hyperion, 2001). (This also has another of those wonderful "strays" that are found in Schubert's surviving works, his "Notturno in E flat," D897).

*III. SYMPHONIES:* Schubert is best known, of course, for Symphony #8 in B minor, D759 ("Unfinished") and Symphony #9 in C, D944 ("The Great"). The version I have is the older classic set of performances now collected in the box of the complete symphonies by Karl Böhm & the Berliner Philharmoniker, 8 Symphonies (1963-1971; reissue: Deutche Grammophon, 2010). I'm sure that there are better out there.

*IV. SOLO PIANO:* The appreciation of Schubert's piano solo works only came to fruition in the 20th century. His mature works are Sonatas #14 - 21; all of them are excellent, and the last three are spectacular. Also excellent are his two sets of Impromptus, his Wanderfantasie, and Klavierstucke. There are many fine cycles. I prefer the recently completed cycle by the British pianist Paul Lewis, who surveyed the works in three volumes (each is 2 CDs):

*_Schubert: Piano Sonatas D840, 850, 894 / Impromptus D899 / Klavierstucke D946_ (Harmonia mundi, 2011) (that is, Piano Sonatas #15, #17, & #18 "Fantasie").
*_Schubert: Piano Sonatas D845 / Wanderfantasie / Impromptus D935_ (Harmonia mundi, 2012) 
(D845 = Piano Sonata #16)
*_Schubert: The Late Piano Sonatas: D784, D958, D959 & D960_ (Harmonia mundi, 2014) (that is, Piano Sonatas #14, #19, #20, and #21). This just came out.

I appreciate Lewis' self-effacing personal style: that it's about the music, not him (unlike certain other pianists).










*V. SONGS / SONG CYCLES:* Essential is Schubert's Winterreise. Check especially performance of this and other lieder by the great Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.

I'll post something on Schumann tomorrow.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

For Schubert, as other have mentioned his lieder are excellent. Check out Winterreise, Schwanengesang and Die Schone Mullerin. I'm not extremely fond of Schubert's symphony cycle. Besides 5, 8 and 9 I think they are pretty good, but not great. But 5, 8 and 9 ARE really great. My favorite of those three is #9. It's really long but if you find yourself enjoying it enough it probably won't really matter. Personally, some of my favorite Schubert works are his piano sonatas. Check out any of them between 14 and 21.






Here's #17, for your listening pleasure, it's one of my favorites so far.

As for Schumann, you really can't go wrong with his major piano works. Papillons, Davidsbundlertanze, Carnaval, Fantasiestucke, Etudes Symphoniques, Kreisleriana, Fantasy in C, Humoreske in B flat, Novelletten, Nachtstucke and Geistervariationen are all really great piano pieces by Schumann.

I'd also like to mention a couple Schumann pieces that many people seem unaware of, or maybe they don't like them as much as I do. Schumann's composition skills are often considered to have deteriorated in the last years of his life, but during these years he wrote some wonderful chamber music. Marchenbilder for viola and piano, 5 pieces in a folk style for cello and piano and Marchenerzahlungen for viola, clarinet and piano are all exquisitely beautiful pieces that are definitely worth hearing. I'll post all three of the pieces I just mentioned.










The cello and piano piece is in 5 separate videos






















Also, as others have mentioned, Schumann wrote amazing lieder as well. So be sure to check those out.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I share the view that the songs are the pinnacle of Schubert's achievement, e.g. _Gute Nach_t:






and _Ständchen_:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It really depends what genre of music you like. If you like symphonies check out Schuberts number eight or Schumann's first. 
With piano music Schuberts impromptus or Schumann's Kinderzeden are a good place to start.
Chamber music - Schubert Trout Quintet or Schumann piano quintet.
With the vocal stuff they wrote innumerical songs so choose any of them!


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Alright. Now I know where to start. Thanks.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I'm also fond of his Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra.


Yes - that is an awesome piece. I highly recommend the Schumann piano quartet and quintet also. Those are two of my favorite chamber music pieces. Schumann's piano quintet may have been influenced by Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 in E-flat major. It's a work Schumann admired. Both Schubert trios are great. As is the String Quintet in C.

All the Schumann symphonies are great. A lot of performances of the 1st fall flat unless they are live it seems to me. Schubert symphonies are much lighter - except for 8 and 9.

Interested in opera? Some say Schubert was an excellent opera composer. I'm not really big on the ones I have heard. Abbodo made a highly acclaimed recording of Fierrabras. Schumann wrote one opera -Genoveva. I like it and I think his big choral stuff is pretty good. Das Paradies und die Peri and Scenes from Goethe's Faust.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> For Schubert, I would say the "Death and the maiden" string quartet and the 3rd and 8th ("Unfinished") symphonies are quite accessible. Personally I never really got into the Trout quintet, but it seems to be very popular.
> 
> As for Schumann, I would recommend the piano concerto (as others already have), and for his chamber music, the piano quintet, op. 44. (Am I really the only person on the planet who likes that quintet!?  )


There are three great piano quintets:Brahms, Schumann and Dvorak. The Schumann has not exactly been neglected.

I left out the Schubert and Shostakovich because I hate them.


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## csacks (Dec 5, 2013)

Just to add some pieces which have not been mentioned, Schubert´s trios (opus 99 and 100) are mind-blowing. The second one in particular.
About Schumann, I would disagree with the recommendation of starting with his piano music. It is indeed fantastic, but a long piece of piano solo may not be that gripping. Instead of that, I would suggest to start with the 1st and the 4th symphonies. They both are elegiac.
Try, enjoy and try again. Youtube is an endless source of trials. 
Enjoy and tell us how is it going


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

My favorite Schumann work is a solo piano composition, "Symphonic Etudes". Schumann at his very best.
Try to hear it if you can.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Declined Schubert, Schubert Declined. Declined Schumann, Schumann, Declined.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For Schubert, I would simply say listen to the opening movement of his 9th symphony as performed by the Vienna Philharmonic under Georg Solti. If that doesn't grab you, nothing will!


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

You have many recommendations already, so I'm going to add just two idiosyncratic recommendations to your growing pile. (I hope you like solo piano, because I think these are especially beautiful).

Schubert - Moments Musicaux, D.780. 

Schumann - Gesänge der Frühe, Op. 133.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Wood said:


> Declined Schubert, Schubert Declined. Declined Schumann, Schumann, Declined.


Finally. That was exactly what I wanted. Thanks.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Wood said:


> Declined Schubert, Schubert Declined. Declined Schumann, Schumann, Declined.


Seems like a safer introduction than Clara, meet Johannes. Johannes, meet my lovely wife.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

SCHUBERT string quartets 12-13-14 & 15 are great so is his string quintet.DIE SCHONE MULLERIN is great as well.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Radames said:


> Yes - that is an awesome piece. I highly recommend the Schumann piano quartet and quintet also. Those are two of my favorite chamber music pieces. Schumann's piano quintet may have been influenced by Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 in E-flat major. It's a work Schumann admired. Both Schubert trios are great. As is the String Quintet in C.
> 
> Interested in opera? Some say Schubert was an excellent opera composer. I'm not really big on the ones I have heard. Abbodo made a highly acclaimed recording of Fierrabras. Schumann wrote one opera -Genoveva. I like it and I think his big choral stuff is pretty good. Das Paradies und die Peri and Scenes from Goethe's Faust.


Couldn't agree more. I love all the Schumann vocal works mentioned above and I'll add Der Rose Pilgerfahrt to the list. He was also one of the great composers of lieder and there's much to explore there.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> In addition, I highly recommend reading about Schubert's life and the revival of his music post-mortem. I was absolutely blown away by the respect Schubert paid to Beethoven and extremely moved by the selfless promotion of his music by mainly Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and Liszt. If not for those four, especially the first two, we might not be having this discussion. The fact that Mendelssohn and Schumann went out of their ways to promote the works of Schubert is something that has earned them my undying respect. You simply would not see many gestures like that in modern society. This may sound silly to some but I think many of you will understand my sentiment. I often think that both Beethoven and Schubert never got to hear their 9th Symphonies performed. How tragic is that? It's the musical equivalent of a heart transplant. If I had magical powers, I'd bring Schubert back to life and take him to a performance of his 9th Symphony. Can you imagine the look on his face? I'd also force him to finish all unfinished works but that's neither here nor there.


Can you recommend any books Scratchgolf?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

The problem I always have with the "introduce me to" request is this: Do I take someone to my current favorite works, or do I take them on the same journey I made?

I'll opt for the latter this time. My own introduction to Schumann was the Overture to Manfred and the First Piano Sonata. The problem is that although I've heard many good performances of the latter, the former piece is tricky. Most conductors, IMO, do not "get" the Manfred Overture - they miss the tension in the piece and let it go all flaccid. One sure recommendation I have is Charles Munch with the BSO. Once I heard that piece I was hooked on Schumann.

I don't love Schubert to quite the same degree as I do Schumann, but Klemperer's version of the 5th Symphony has always been pure poetry to me.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Unfortunately, all my reading has been online. I do suggest franzpeterschubert.com, as it has a list of his circle of friends and acquaintances and a brief writeup on each. There are some really cool quotes and first hand accounts that surprised me. Some get more enjoyment from a piece by reading along with the score. Since I cannot read music, I enjoy having a little knowledge of the piece and composer.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> The problem I always have with the "introduce me to" request is this: Do I take someone to my current favorite works, or do I take them on the same journey I made?


I did the same. I started with an "essential Schubert" download and it was the finale of the piano quintet and the opening of Impromtus that grabbed my attention first.



Vesteralen said:


> I don't love Schubert to quite the same degree as I do Schumann, but Klemperer's version of the 5th Symphony has always been pure poetry to me.


The first 5 seconds of this symphony always put a smile on my face. A clever little intro. I very much love my Bohm recordings.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Thus far I've listened to Schubert's 9th Symphony, a few of his string quartets, a piano sonata, and his second piano trio. I've listened to Schumann's first Symphony, his Piano Concerto, his piano quintet, and some of his solo piano works. 

I must say, I'm quite impressed. Now, I don't know anything about music theory, but to me Schubert sounds more melodic and cheerful. While Schumann sounds much more passionate and erratic, which coincides with his love for Clara and his mental problems.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Declined said:


> Thus far I've listened to Schubert's 9th Symphony, a few of his string quartets, a piano sonata, and his second piano trio. I've listened to Schumann's first Symphony, his Piano Concerto, his piano quintet, and some of his solo piano works.
> 
> I must say, I'm quite impressed. Now, I don't know anything about music theory, but to me Schubert sounds more melodic and cheerful. While Schumann sounds much more passionate and erratic, which coincides with his love for Clara and his mental problems.


Those perceived differences become much less obvious the more of their work you hear - which is pretty much how the world works. Try not to let what you've read about - and by - Schumann influence your reactions to his music. Within a composition he was not erratic; his music 'sequences' too well to fit 'erratic'. You may be initially misled though, and that was probably his intention. Kick back and listen to _*Carnaval*_, without 'editorializing en-route''. _When the music is done_, ask yourself: "What happened to me there?"

Your answer depends as least as much on you as on the music itself. The following isn't quite my take, but one reaction I read was that "the piece starts in a rube's head and ends in a carny's".


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> Unfortunately, all my reading has been online. I do suggest franzpeterschubert.com, as it has a list of his circle of friends and acquaintances and a brief writeup on each. There are some really cool quotes and first hand accounts that surprised me. Some get more enjoyment from a piece by reading along with the score. Since I cannot read music, I enjoy having a little knowledge of the piece and composer.


There is plenty of good stuff there. Thank you scratchgolf.


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## vaubu (May 11, 2014)

violadude said:


> I'd also like to mention a couple Schumann pieces...Marchenbilder for viola and piano, 5 pieces in a folk style for cello and piano and Marchenerzahlungen for viola, clarinet and piano are all exquisitely beautiful pieces that are definitely worth hearing.


Thank you for sharing these suggestions! I am new to chamber music and haven't known where to start with Schumann.

For less than a month now, I've been obsessively trying to figure out what recordings of Schubert's chamber music I would like to spend some time with. I've tended to veer away from renditions that dynamically attack the accents. I even prefer the *Busch Quartet*'s version of the *Death and the Maiden Quartet* for this reason.

Harmoni Mundi recently released two versions of Schubert's *Quintet in C Major*. Again, I prefer the subtlety of the *Tokyo Quartet*'s rendition over the starkly dramatic interpretation of the Arcanto Quintet.

I'm really delighted by *Benjamin Britten* and *Mstislav Rostropovich*'s version of Schubert's *Sonata for Arpeggione*. The version by *Leonard Rose* was my introduction to Schubert, and I enjoy that and of course, *Pablo Casal*'s version from the Prades Festival.

As for some of his famous quartets I've found the *Julliard Quartet* plays with a lithe touch that is well-suited for the *Trout Quartet*.

I find it strange that many LP/CDs pair the Trout with Death and the Maiden. They are so stylistically different. Though I hear the juxtaposition of dark and light throughout Schubert's compositions. But Schubert's last string quartet, the *15th String Quartet in G major* seems more suited to being paired with his 14th (Death and the Maiden). The 15th is such an amazing and complex piece!


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