# Heresy, Apostacy, Blashpemy Its your right to free speech



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

OK, time to expose myths and false doctrines. 
I'll start,,,i can already feel the flames lick at my feet,,,,,
Here goes
Henze is greater than,,,Bach
Now game is , you are entitled to free speech, but please keep it civil and non-flaming. 
You can not damn, just to damn old standard ideas/opinions/beliefs/myths.
You have to show some substance worthy of your opinion....otherwise the Ax men are commin at ya....

Now here is why I make this bold, daring, schismatic claim, which may give some of youa heart attack.

Look at Henze's list of compositions. 
Now its true many of you have not heard most, if any of these works, but from my experience, you'll ner find a dud in the bunch.
Like looking for a needle in a hay stack. 
Whereas with bach, what he did not borrow from Vivaldi, he wrote quite often in a as one TC team member commented *often clinical* take that as you will.

Bach can be a series of variations. Now its true with the right chamber orch, his works can become ,,lets say charming, and hold some interest. 
Bach is good for a sunday morning coffee and newspaper read. Background music.

btw I really have never cared for his Brandenburg concertos, and that's with the finest record, Ristenpart/Chamber Orch of The Saar. 
I just never *got* that work..

Bach reigns supreme among so so many classicalites,,,but its time now in 2019, to make some opinions known.
Henze is greater than Bach
Bach does have thousands of works,,but how many can we consider *great*. Ater a while it all sounds, so,,,generic, so mundane.

Whereas
with Henze, 
Here take a look link below

now lets hear your heresy which may have your head in the morning,,,or by fire,,which ever way you choose to go,,,free speech includes free choice of how you wish to go. 

Everytime I edit Wiki on Henze, to say *germany's greatest late 20th C composer* someone over at wiki, keeps deleting my opinionated fact. 
wiki editors are machine like, , lacks understanding...all they say is *Henze was a geramn composer,,,blahblah blahhh*.
wiki is good for bare facts only

now onto the truth backing my heresy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Hans_Werner_Henze


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

ahhh shucks, I wanted this topic on general discussion board,,not sure why/how it ended up here ,,,,can mods switch it over please


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

What's there to discuss. It's your personal taste/opinion, nothing more nothing less. Perfectly fine, until you start pitching it as an objective fact (like in the wiki story).


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> What's there to discuss. It's your personal taste/opinion, nothing more nothing less. Perfectly fine, until you start pitching it as an objective fact (like in the wiki story).


Greatest has objectivity, its not all personal opinion.
Babe Ruth was the greatest hitter in his day,,,except when a young lad with a deadly dropping pitch struck him out time after time ,,,then he did not look so great after all.
wiki has Stockhausen as *most important,,,influential,,,,significant,,,* compoers of late 20th C...but for Henze,,,*He was a german composer*,,nothing at all about *great*..
we use *great* loosly around here , you and I know this.

Its just a add on junction to express how we feel about a certain artist,,,Like for instance,,,*the great Furtwangler,,,* who can deny he was a not a legendary conductor? History has proven so.

Henze is great, ,,in,,,ok ok MY, ME, not you , not anyone but I,,, My little old opinion, germany's greatest, and worldwide, one of the greatest late 20Th C composers.

His works substantiate my belief. 
Unless you or others have a better suggestion out of germany , past 50 yrs, and /or world wide past 30 years.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Incoherent twaddle.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Your profound ignorance of Bach is on full display.

I'll not participate further in a discussion based on such mindlessness.


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## Guest (May 31, 2019)

Becca said:


> Incoherent twaddle.


Oh, it's not just me then.

(You sound like a certain member who, I only just noticed, has been banned.)


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I really don’t think it matters what anyone else thinks about your choice of music/composer/performer or how great you feel they are.
We are all welcome to our own opinions


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

paulbest said:


> Henze is greater than,,,Bach


how do we compare them, since the latter came much earlier and has defined music (at least they say so) whilst the former wasn't even there yet? Henze to be pit against Shostakovich, for that matter.


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## Guest (May 31, 2019)

MacLeod said:


> Oh, it's not just me then.
> 
> (You sound like a certain member who, I only just noticed, has been banned.)


Only just? I spotted it soon after it happened last week some time. I wonder for how long?


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## Guest (May 31, 2019)

Let me declare, for the avoidance of any doubt, that I rate Bach very highly, so please don't misinterpret what I say below.

I don't believe that what Paul has stated about Bach is that outrageous, as not everyone is bound to like Bach. This Forum has been host to numerous previous threads saying the most ghastly things about the likes of Mozart and Wagner. There have also been occasional assaults on the status of other "greats" like Schubert, Brahms and Sibelius, to name just a few.

Miraculously so far, J S Bach seems to have escaped any similar scrutiny. In fact, he has always struck me as a composer who most people dare not attack, even mildly, possibly out of fear that the Mafia might bump them off, to sleep with the fishes and all that.

Personally, I don't have any serious qualms about the music of Bach at all. Taking it in the round I find it magnificent. The only thing I would say is that there's a lot of "same-ness" about some areas of his work. For example, I could easily live with fewer cantatas. The same applies to a lot of his organ works, some of which is a bit monotonous. Even among some of his orchestral work, there's an element of quite close duplication and similarity with other works. I don't blame Bach in any way for this for he lived quite a long life, and a lot of his output was required of him from his employers.

As for Henze, I have very little of his work, and consequently am not informed well enough to comment. I do rather agree though that Henze seems to be rather too separated in time from Bach to be all that relevant. However, Paul's enthusiasm for this composer will probably encourage me to delve further, and this could be his chief aim. The same thing happened some 13 years ago on another Forum where I spotted someone promoting Pettersson. I knew very little of this composer before that time, but became quite enthused based on what I read. That guy was Paul, and I was grateful for the recommendation.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I don't like Bach or Henze. However, as others have pointed out, your views with regard to Henze are just that, your views. Despite my dislike for both composers' works, Bach is considerably more popular than Henze. That in itself would indicate that a majority probably disagree with your view. In any case, I wouldn't start a thread claiming that my favourite composers are the best that ever were because, again, that would just be my opinion. What not just say that Henze is your favourite composer and leave it there? No one could disagree with that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Everyone is entitled top their opinion but it is better expressed in proper English


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Bach is Bach. His music is very rich but there are lots of qualities that music lovers value in other music that Bach lacks. Bach's time and his roles in it can seem very distant and alien to us now. Much of his music is very great but it is understandable that some people don't get much out of him. They are looking for something different. Rubbishing him when so many over such a long period have revered him seems obnoxiously arrogant to me but some people love to parade their prejudices as insights that "the herd" (that's us, folks!) have lacked the perception to divine. Henze, IMO, is a relatively minor composer from the second half of the 20th Century. Never mind comparing him with Bach, I'm not sure he compares so well with the several composers from his own period. I do enjoy some of his works, though.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Henze measured 177cm and Bach had only 165cm, so Henze > Bach


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Have been listening to Henze's 8th symphony - I wonder what others think?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Partita said:


> Let me declare, for the avoidance of any doubt, that I rate Bach very highly, so please don't misinterpret what I say below.
> 
> I don't believe that what Paul has stated about Bach is that outrageous, as not everyone is bound to like Bach. This Forum has been host to numerous previous threads saying the most ghastly things about the likes of Mozart and Wagner. There have also been occasional assaults on the status of other "greats" like Schubert, Brahms and Sibelius, to name just a few.
> 
> ...


May I rirst say , gracious (with full intent of the latin word, = Full of graciousness ) Expertly handled my ,,,,*mess* /diatribe,,,,letsb see how one TC member put it,,,*dis-laudable twaddle and twiddle* (paraphrase all mine).
You got exactly what I am aiming at.
I am not in any way chipping at Bach's throne of glory, impeccable , lofty , immaculate. Obviously Bach;'s music has genius in The High Arts , even speaking to hearts and souls today, not rusted, not tattered, still holding strong in the rankings of all composers stretching across the epochal spectrum through 2019.

Yet we all must admit, his music does have a small channel of ideas, his music is stocked well with *themes and variations* . There is a certain pattern riveting all his works together like one great cathedral. No one can fault his compositional abilities, not its musical likeability. It is mellifluous and sparkles with charms and grace. 
For this reason his music fills the concert halls and air waves all across the world. All ethnic groups appreciate , adore their Bach. 
That is not going away anytime soon, this devotion to Bach.

It was only as of last night, I got to pondering,,,just how does Henze's compositional page on wiki look like...so I went there,,,and was simply astonished.

Treasure trove, mother load, are the 2 ideas that came to mind.

This is all I am saying, and it was this discovery of the jack pot at the end of the rainbow which instilled the idea to make the OP.

Perhaps the outlandish idea can be somewhat excused as impetuous , petulant enthusiasm 
And in that spirit, please excuse my brutishness , if not arrogance at my seemingly disdain for Bach.
Not at all.
I should have made the OP, **at least to be considered as on the level of a modern Bach*. 
As both have extensive output along with solid quality in each work.

had I wrote more clearer and accurately, I may not have awaken up this morning at 5 am, and found so many weapons drawn at my face,,while still in bed here at the keyboard.

I am very grateful to have Partita as my lone supported,,,and much better translator, interpreter of what I was aiming at in the OP. 
Not a threat at all to bach's stature, his grandeur.

I was referring to a context in time,,, Bach wrote in a bygone era,a world very different from today.

What I did discover from looking over a few scathing harsh comments here, is that some of you have still not heard, familiarized yourself with Henze. 
And Yet made such blistering condemnations , which may have some justification, but then after reading Partita's apology in my defense, he has shown himself among most others here,,,a true gentleman and a solid scholar. 
For this I am most thankful for such a encouraging defense of my ideas and personal opinions.
Some of you need to be more tolerant, and wait for further explanations of what I am getting at here.

A few has rushed to judgements before hearing me out, more fully,,as the OP was made late, half asleep, not cognitively alert.

someone over at GMG donned me The Great Iconoclast who has much work to carry out,,,,,,pssst on the side, OK?.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

and yes,,,one of my main, if not sole purposive , objectives in coming to TC, was to promote Henze. 
I think this OP may have triggered a reaction and consequences ,,,but one that I was not ready for...Perhaps my uncouth mannerisms in proposing such a extraordinary , even bizarre, idea, may have elicited more harm to Henze's reputation, than good.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I am seeing comments ranging all across the spectrum ,,I have this board all divided..Its like skeletons in the closet...a few supporters are reflecting and looking into this matter for themselves,,while others have just slammed the door in my face.


What does this tell you?
Means something. has the Bach community felt a strong wind at their faces?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Henze measured 177cm and Bach had only 165cm, so Henze > Bach


This is inaccurate , in fact Bach composed 1128 scores to his credit,,,no other composer will ever attain to such a dizzying height.
Henze perhaps 100. Short by 900+.

Yet all Henze works sound different from each other,,,whereas in Bach,,,Well you know how some feel about Bach;'s music. I often hear the word *sameness*,,,not saying generic, like white bread,,,but still his music does have the same chimes , bells and whistles going on. 
Lets say you turn on the radio, and Bach is on, everyone knows , *This is Bach!*,,whereas you enter a Henze score already playing ,,you say *hummm, I wonder which composer this might be...*,,Its anyones guess.
this is what I am getting at in the OP. 
Henze is not generic, not white bread.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Zhdanov said:


> how do we compare, since the latter came much earlier and has defined music (at least they say so) whilst the former wasn't even there yet? Henze to be pit against Shostakovich, for that matter.


Shostakovich should be the one most likely to make a rough compare,,,This is true.
But with Shostakovich, he has some syms, and other works I am not at all thrilled about. Of course he had to score under the watchful eye of the deveil, and this held back his creativity.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Henze is an OK composer, I have liked what I've listened to (quite a lot - I have 28 Henze CD's), but there is not a single Henze composition that I've heard that I would deem essential for me. Bach has dozens.

Does that "prove" something? No, just that I clearly prefer Bach over Henze. Personal opinion. Taste. NOTHING to do with objectivity.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

If some listeners are unable to hear any greatness in Bach, even if they don’t care for him, why should they be able to hear any greatness in Henze? Ask the average listener who Henze is and they probably have no idea though he was born almost 100 years ago. That’s some impact. That type of obscurity is generally not typical of the truly great composers though I consider him well worth hearing without dragging Bach into it and then callous listeners making dismissive and ignorant comments about one of the immortals. Bach was a productive, prodigious giant who helped develop modern harmony and music in general owes him a great debt, IMO. The only thing these two composers have in common is that they were German, though Henze eventually moved to Italy and was greatly enriched by the culture. But he still wrote a German opera even after moving there. He was a gifted and eclectic composer who had a politically and socially active life, capable of writing just about anything, who deserves to receive more recognition for his works without having to be dismissive or condemning of Bach to do it. There are some good online write-ups and articles on Henze if others want to look for them and find out more.


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## infracave (May 14, 2019)

Partita said:


> For example, I could easily live with fewer cantatas. /QUOTE]
> Well, Bach, on the other hand, couldn't have. ^^
> 
> @paulbest
> ...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

@ ArtRock, Larkenfield, Infracave

all excellent posts,, insightful, balanced , fair and gentlemanly. 
I hope to find time this morning to reflect upon your wise imput. 
As it is I am in remod mode here at home, and contractors always asking for this /that.
Very appreciate of your understanding w/o the condemnation others have shown,,,Some I fear have may have damned me, like a Anabaptist under perjury circumstances. in the 16th C. 

A fair trail is all I ask here,,,have I entered the Bach cathedral and smash his stained glass, his altar? 

I am only referring in context, 17TH C, and 20TH C. Things are different in this 300 yr span, , never in husman history has more cataclysmic events transpired than all the previous 5K + yrs of human history.
Context. 
Bach is a mighty composer, no question there, Any doubts on that, ask Hillary Hahn, she
can enlighten any doubter.


Glad to see others here having at least curiosity in Henze. 
Henze is a mystery in a way, and this is one aspect of his music which draws a comparison to the incomparable Bach. Bach stands alone, as does Mozart, ,,as does Henze in his epoch...This is really the synopsis of my ideas and opinions. Henze is the Bach of the 20th C. 

The fact he is still relatively unknown ,
means what? 
Obviously a sign of our times.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

infracave said:


> Partita said:
> 
> 
> > For example, I could easily live with fewer cantatas. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Everyone is entitled top their opinion but it is better expressed in proper English


That's ironic.

"The message you have entered is too short." lol


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Bach and Henze lived centuries apart. Bach's greatness has long been established, and any CM lover doubting it will be doubted in return. Asking for explanation is reasonable and answering that question shouldn't be prohibitive for someone with language skills. 

Now let's introduce Henze. Many listeners including myself have bypassed this composer who may be more important than I think. I can easily find out for myself by finding some Henze on Spotify. I might even want to talk about what makes Henze interesting. But why do we need to start such a discussion with rating him greater than the greatest composers with no substance to back it up whatsoever? And why would I want to participate in such a discussion initiated with a demand for only input with substance and deep thought while offering nothing but flimsy opinion? 

What a setup! Heresy, apostacy, blasphemy! Fire and brimstone! Judgment Day is upon us all! Henze rules the universe!


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

paulbest said:


> infracave said:
> 
> 
> > True, I have not even taped the tip of the iceburg of Bach, so a confession here is in order.
> ...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Bach wrote his great 1043 in 1718, Vivaldi wrote his great La Stravaganza 1716. 
amazing exact contemporaries writing masterpieces which reflect, mirror each other so succinctly. 
I tend to prefer Vivaldi, not sure why,,,I think it has to do with the slower middle movement. ,,,,no, I just revisited Vivaldi's La Stravaganza largo movements,,,,,,seems I have even outgrown some of my beloved Vivaldi as well as Bach
See with me, I approach composer ina wholelistic, organic sense. I just can not listen to the 2 vivace allego movements with gusto,,and become somewhat *less thrilled* at the sluggish, meditative middle. 
I need substance throughout,,, 1st note to finale...


Hoepfully this helps to explain my ,,,seemingly,,,,preposterous belief,,,(heretical for sure) in which I can place Henze along side Bach with no qualms nor even a 
flinch.

seems the Cathedral of Bach has its adherents and worshippers , that's for sure. the sunday crowds may not be too big at the old catholic cathedrals in Europe, but the Bach church gathers fierce believers. 


I just can not makea icon of a composer who lived so so long ago. Ina world I never knew. 

Bach has achieved greatness, buts lets keep things in perspective here. 


Henze has no church following. 
Perhaps that's why I like him so much. 

I tend to seek the underground music. 
Music that explores sounds which are hard to define, musical imagery difficult to hold on to, new experiences flowing in, taking me here,,,now there and so makinga journey to another realm,,, a place where there is no time, nor space.
bach is , and will always be confined to the baroque. He can not move into the now moment. 

You wish to visit that epoch, have at it. 


Can you really live in that past,,and yet make the discovery of Henze?
How is this possible?


Ahh Vivaldi's La Stravaganza, so sweet, but now I hear Bach's 1043 as more developed , higher structured and magnificent. 
We will not forget what they gave us, in our early years of The High Arts, with gratitude and thankfulness.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> paulbest said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, do you play an instrument? You'll get a lot more out of Bach if you do, ..as for Henze I don't think so. So just be aware that you're that kind of a listener.
> ...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> That's ironic.
> 
> "The message you have entered is too short." lol


 Ideational content takes precedence over the mannerism of expression,,,


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

philoctetes said:


> Bach and Henze lived centuries apart. Bach's greatness has long been established, and any CM lover doubting it will be doubted in return. Asking for explanation is reasonable and answering that question shouldn't be prohibitive for someone with language skills.
> 
> Now let's introduce Henze. Many listeners including myself have bypassed this composer who may be more important than I think. I can easily find out for myself by finding some Henze on Spotify. I might even want to talk about what makes Henze interesting. But why do we need to start such a discussion with rating him greater than the greatest composers with no substance to back it up whatsoever? And why would I want to participate in such a discussion initiated with a demand for only input with substance and deep thought while offering nothing but flimsy opinion?
> 
> What a setup! Heresy, apostacy, blasphemy! Fire and brimstone! Judgment Day is upon us all! Henze rules the universe!


Perhaps ,,,Bach has been, over the centuries,,somewhat over inflated.

I mean how long are we going to appraise bach so highly? Another few more centuries? 
But why? whats the point?

Yes exactly,,one of my secret initiatives in joining TC, was ,,to promote Henze, to bring attention which was sadly long overdue.

At least you are willing to take a closer look at Henze. 
Exploration can be a good thing. 
Breaking down walls, is what change is all about.

Who knows you may one day be a far greater Henzeian that I ever could be, as I lack all tech artistry skill which you and others possess. thus giving much greater weight to any discussion in these types of matters.

I can't explain why Henze is so different, so special,,,Neither do the Bachians offer any defense of their great composer.

One either has the ears , to hear, or else lacks such required sensibilities.

Henze needs no apologists, but he does need at least, a *voice crying in the wilderness* which grants him the recognition of his significance of ranking him as a great 20th C composer,


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Bach is good for a sunday morning coffee and newspaper read. Background music.


I'm perfectly fine with the fact that you prefer Henze to Bach. The problem is this argument. 
This is an argument of a person who have listened very few works of Bach or doesn't understand it.
The art of the fugue it's background music?
Something like this is good for a sunday morning coffee?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> I mean how long are we going to appraise bach so highly? Another few more centuries?
> But why? whats the point?
> 
> Yes exactly,,one of my secret initiatives in joining TC, was ,,to promote Henze, to bring attention which was sadly long overdue.


I'm not going to argue with you or post any helpful suggestions as I know you will not pay any attention. But ...

What's the point of valuing Bach highly? Mostly it is because he wrote some much music that is without peer, music that feeds the soul and inspires the spirit in ways that no other composer has. I acknowledge that some composers - although not that many, actually - have achieved results that are in their different ways also as life affirming, inspiring/moving and meaningful as Bach and if I thought there is the slightest danger of our losing contact with their work I would be amazed.

As for Henze, you come on like a profit of an unknown composer but there are many members here who know his work, possibly better than you. Some like it (I am one) and others don't. But I doubt there are more than one (you!) or two others who prefer him to nearly all other composers. I am all for enthusiasm. I respect and appreciate it because of how uplifting it can be. It is rare to see it put to service in rubbishing other music, though.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

paulbest said:


> infracave said:
> 
> 
> > True, I have not even taped the tip of the iceburg of Bach, so a confession here is in order.
> ...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Partita said:


> Personally, I don't have any serious qualms about the music of Bach at all. Taking it in the round I find it magnificent. The only thing I would say is that there's a lot of "same-ness" about some areas of his work. For example, I could easily live with fewer cantatas. The same applies to a lot of his organ works, some of which is a bit monotonous.


No, it would be wonderful if Bach had composed a lot more cantatas and organ works.


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## Guest (May 31, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Henze measured 177cm and Bach had only 165cm, so Henze > Bach


Both "heavenly lengths" indeed.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> No, it would be wonderful if Bach had composed a lot more cantatas and organ works.


Hear that, Bach? One cantata per week just isn't enough!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> ...Bach has achieved greatness, buts lets keep things in perspective here...


A little late for that. Would have been best applied to the OP.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm not going to argue with you or post any helpful suggestions as I know you will not pay any attention. But ...
> 
> What's the point of valuing Bach highly? Mostly it is because he wrote some much music that is without peer, music that feeds the soul and inspires the spirit in ways that no other composer has. I acknowledge that some composers - although not that many, actually - have achieved results that are in their different ways also as life affirming, inspiring/moving and meaningful as Bach and if I thought there is the slightest danger of our losing contact with their work I would be amazed.
> 
> As for Henze, you come on like a profit of an unknown composer but there are many members here who know his work, possibly better than you. Some like it (I am one) and others don't. But I doubt there are more than one (you!) or two others who prefer him to nearly all other composers. I am all for enthusiasm. I respect and appreciate it because of how uplifting it can be. It is rare to see it put to service in rubbishing other music, though.


Well there 's the rub, 
The spirit, the soul, so much has passed over the past 3 centuries. 
Bach may speak to a generality of souls. Others are not so moved. 
Who knows in the next gen, Bach's fame may wither a bit, some of his light may fade. It can not be assumed that Bach will achieve a continuation of fame and notoriety.

This world is going through its throes and woes.

If others here feel I am entering into Bach's Cathedral and kicking some pews around, disrupting the church service , well it is what a Iconoclast is suppose to do.

Bach has been held in such esteem, as to be , untouchable, not-to-be spoken in any shaming way.

He was a mastered at perfect structure, But I am not looking for a cathedral of perfect structure, I am seeking composers music which breathes the same air as I, in this epoch, these times.

Take pop music, here today, gone tomorrow. We thought, for a fleeting moment,,the Beatles were more popular, loved than God. Now their cds can be had for pennies. . 
Who knows, the next gen, may completely skip over Henze as if he never existed. 
These are the ones who will have the decision. 
In the meantime, I will speak up for Henze as others have done for Bach past 300 years.

Music is all about meaning, purpose, affects, effects upon the spirit, the soul as you have correctly pointed to.

Who knows what the future will hold..

The Henzeian movement may not ever take flight.....then again, Henze's star may rise high, higher, highest, ,,,right next to...~~~JS Bach~~~~


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## Guest (May 31, 2019)

paulbest said:


> We thought, for a fleeting moment,,the Beatles were more popular, loved than God. *Now their cds can be had for pennies*.


Lucky you - not where I live.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

paulbest said:


> Perhaps ,,,Bach has been, over the centuries,,somewhat over inflated.
> 
> I mean how long are we going to appraise bach so highly? Another few more centuries?
> But why? whats the point?
> ...


"Perhaps ,,,Bach has been, over the centuries,,somewhat over inflated."

'Not by people who study music and play music and teach music. Not by people who care about history and the accomplishments of the past and the development of expressive tools of music.

But by people like you who enjoy listening for sensual reasons and being impressed by postmodern feelings, premonitions and suspicions. And apparently are easily bored by repeated hearings.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

DaveM said:


> A little late for that. Would have been best applied to the OP.


I am fulling out the rough edges to my OP now, just above post # 41

Greatness I said, has something of objectivity , but also subjective,,,Bach has a fame which is near universal. 
But all universals must eventually be challenged.

My Q here is , why has Bach achieved such a notoriety and is certainly justifiable,,,whereas Henze is yet hardly known...I'd suggest, perhaps more than 50% of the High Arts society may have yet to hear the name Henze.

What does that tell you?

Deafness?

Negligence , laziness. lack of spirit to explore the new and unknown?
Lack of aesthetics.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Greatness has nothing to do with objectivity and everything to do with personal opinion. I have no dispute with opinions and the right to them, even those different from mine, but obsession does get tiresome (also incoherent ramblings.)

BTW, the last part above (negligence, etc.) is insulting to those who don't share your opinion.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

paulbest said:


> I am fulling out the rough edges to my OP now, just above post # 41
> 
> Greatness I said, has something of objectivity , but also subjective,,,Bach has a fame which is near universal.
> But all universals must eventually be challenged.
> ...


I'm always curious to find obscure composers and esoteric music. Henze while certainly not even remotely famous as Bach is not even that obscure (for instance some of his guitar works are well known). But laziness can apply also for famous composers (see your remark about the background music to read the newspaper.
So basically everyone, you and me included having the incredible amount of music composed in thousands of years available have to choose what to listen, so it's obvious that a famous composer is more listened than one that is obscure.

You clearly like to prefer the unknown paths, and I don't have a problem with that, but I wonder if Henze was the famous composer and Bach the unknown one if your perception would have been the opposite.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Just to clarify, When I say Bach's greatness is established, I mean by consensus. I'm not saying someone can't have a different opinion. I fact I'm one of those people who rarely listens to Bach though I listen to a lot of Baroque. That period is a minefield IMO, and as one friend of mine said it can often sound like nothing but scale exercises (e.g. your average violin sonatas from 1690) so it can test my patience as well...

Anyway, this battle of the composer stuff just seems silly and unjust to both composers, exposing them both to a good bashing...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

norman bates said:


> I'm always curious to find obscure composers and esoteric music. Henze while certainly not even remotely famous as Bach is not even that obscure (for instance some of his guitar works are well known). But laziness can apply also for famous composers (see your remark about the background music to read the newspaper.
> So basically everyone, you and me included having the incredible amount of music composed in thousands of years available have to choose what to listen, so it's obvious that a famous composer is more listened than one that is obscure.
> 
> You clearly like to prefer the unknown paths, and I don't have a problem with that, but I wonder if Henze was the famous composer and Bach the unknown one if your perception would have been the opposite.


Yes the classical guitar community adore Henze's works ,,,at least written for guitar.

Thinking about how few of the populace actually love and respond to The High Arts, its no surprise that Henze is obscure. Bach may only have been popular among the elite or upper classes. The majority of the pop, past 300m yrs, may have only known folk music as their ONLY choice. 
Bach, IMHO is sort of for the academy and the highly refined artists.
Take Hillary Hahn, , she stayed within the bounds of tradition. hardly venturing outside the well known. 
Sure its her free choice, , and mine not to purchase her cds,,,except the Shostakovih,,,no wait,,its her Schoenberg I like.
Hahn has made sure Bach's legend will live on another century.

Very refined violinist, but also confined within a narrow group of composers.

And yes, its been my desire to discover and explore. Goes back to my Schwann Catalogue days,,wherea close friend and I would dream, as we flipped through the 6 inch thick catalogue of composers, *wow,,, just think,,where, and how are we going to find that proverbial needle in the hay stack...*...Now we have chat forums, where folks can scream out *HERE,,OVER HERE,,,LISTEN!!!!….*

I bought 4 Henze cds, back in 2004/05,,,dumped them later on,,,not ready for his music...
I see music as a expression of our inner being. 
To the degree we have it together, the more we can make new and meaningful choices, and can hear with a open, non biased mind.

If only the 1 or 2 who screamed at me to *Get Henze!*,,could see how I am his biggest fan, that it took some 14 years,

I am very surprised Henze has not caught on, as yet, its been some 50 yrs since he began scoring masterpieces..
What is the community waiting for,,,the 2nd Coming of Christ?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> "Perhaps ,,,Bach has been, over the centuries,,somewhat over inflated."
> 
> 'Not by people who study music and play music and teach music. Not by people who care about history and the accomplishments of the past and the development of expressive tools of music.
> 
> But by people like you who enjoy listening for sensual reasons and being impressed by postmodern feelings, premonitions and suspicions. And apparently are easily bored by repeated hearings.


 YES , BINGO,,Glad you said this, and not me.
I can listen to Bach,,,but how often? 
*Been there done that*. 
Musical training venues , their libraries especially, are dedicated to Bach. 
Go in any music institution library, entire rooms, full of Bach material. 
That's great , for ,,,Them. Institution, establishment, foundational, fundamentals. 
I get that, , Ain't my cup of tea, after several listens.

If I can figure out the next move, after so many listens, it will get old. Bach is old, yet no one is willing or ready to admit.

Henze 's music speaks for itself,,apparently only a scant few are listening. 
Hillary Hahn is the last big voice for Bach, you watch. 
Tomorrow is different from today, The youths are demanding The New. 
I will be doing my part to direct them to the paths I feel they ought to take.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> I am fulling out the rough edges to my OP now, just above post # 41
> Greatness I said, has something of objectivity , but also subjective,,,Bach has a fame which is near universal. But all universals must eventually be challenged.
> 
> My Q here is , why has Bach achieved such a notoriety and is certainly justifiable,,,whereas Henze is yet hardly known...I'd suggest, perhaps more than 50% of the High Arts society may have yet to hear the name Henze.
> ...


Perhaps, one of the best measures of a great composer is surviving the test of time. Bach's star has continued to rise through the ages. So far, that's not working out so well for Henze. Maybe the audience isn't the problem.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

As someone noted,,,a much better OP Q would have been a compare to Schoenberg, Berg, Shostakovich. As his music is somewhat along these lines of styling.

I may have overstepped a boundary of styles to the point of ridiculousness.

Read Gerad's post on the YT upload.

he says * a very beautiful score*

Let me say I hope one day Henze is as well known as the names of Schoenberg and Shostakovich...
There,. now that's more reasonable , understandable.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

DaveM said:


> Perhaps, one of the best measures of a great composer is surviving the test of time. Bach's star has continued to rise through the ages. So far, that's not working out so well for Henze. Maybe the audience isn't the problem.


Honda has a proven track record,,,yet folks continue to buy lemons such as Toyota and Nissan. 
Everyone is free to choose.

Henze is not commercialized. , Unique music sometimes falls under the mass man's radar system. happens all the time. 
Mankind is alike a slug,,,eventually he'll get to where he is going,,,but may take some time.

If Henze's music was not so special, I wouldn't even consider making all these long wined rants past 24 hours. 
I'm done.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bach is "good for a sunday morning coffee and newspaper read. Background music"? Henze is a great late 20th Century composer, but just because his music is less accessible doesn't mean it's any more complex, profound, or deep than Bach. There is more to Bach than meets the ear (or at least some ears).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think that Henze was a significant composer of his time. I agree with what others have said, that its not necessary to elevate him above other composers, including Bach. Comparisons could be made in terms of how they where both part of the Austro-German tradition. Henze had a kind of love-hate relationship with his country but late in life made statements to the effect that whatever the radical tendencies in his music, he accepted being part of that lineage going back to Bach.

Around the time of my first stint on this forum, I was very much into post 1945 music. I created a number of threads focussed on this area, including one on him:
Hans Werner Henze
Nowadays I find a lot of this type of music to be too heavy going for my taste. I've culled the handful of discs I had of his music.

On the subject of heresy, there was more treatment of music as pseudo religion (with its attendant ideological baggage) on this forum some years ago. I'm not so worried about it now, but of course classical music has its fair share of taboos. In my experience here, they are best left undisturbed.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Honda has a proven track record,,,yet folks continue to buy lemons such as Toyota and Nissan...


Fact checking would be a good idea when it comes to the most reliable cars. And, for that matter, when it comes to composers.

Per Consumer Reports for 2019: Toyota, for the 6th consecutive year captured the top 2 spots for most reliable car of the year. Honda comes in at #13 Acura and #15 Honda. Out of the 10 basic categories of cars, Toyota has the most reliable car in 4 of those categories. Honda is not the the most reliable in any of them.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

DaveM said:


> Fact checking would be a good idea when it comes to the most reliable cars. And, for that matter, when it comes to composers.
> 
> Per Consumer Reports for 2019: Toyota, for the 6th consecutive year captured the top 2 spots for most reliable car of the year. Honda comes in at #13 Acura and #15 Honda. Out of the 10 basic categories of cars, Toyota has the most reliable car in 4 of those categories. Honda is not the the most reliable in any of them.


T is consistently #1 in recalls. My wife and I almost crashed hard, when the famous gas pedal sticking, ran us into a wall at a curve,,,,near the cemetery ,,,the old gas pedal stick thingy, that affects all T's back in the day.
H is proven to go 1M miles no serious issues

I go with composers who will take me into the next realms. which is why I am with Henze. This world is mundane, Henze is celestial


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Sid James said:


> I think that Henze was a significant composer of his time. I agree with what others have said, that its not necessary to elevate him above other composers, including Bach. Comparisons could be made in terms of how they where both part of the Austro-German tradition. Henze had a kind of love-hate relationship with his country but late in life made statements to the effect that whatever the radical tendencies in his music, he accepted being part of that lineage going back to Bach.
> 
> Around the time of my first stint on this forum, I was very much into post 1945 music. I created a number of threads focussed on this area, including one on him:
> Hans Werner Henze
> ...


I had writtena long winded post,,,electricity went out,,,this one will be shortened.
1), yes some composers havea shrine of sorts,,,The biggest 3 shrines are Mozart, Beethoven, and The Cathedral of Bach,,he boasts the largest faithful followers.

I myself am a cultist,.
Henzeian til death. 
Ravelian
Petterssonian
Webernian
Like the old greek cities with their multitude of cult shrines,,I too am multi faceted. I hold no doctrines, no dogmas,,I follow the spirit of creativity, of ebullient light, and deep dark outer space.

I am a cultist. 
A religious fanatic I will never be, which is why I am not a Bachian.

I will certainly look at the link, greatly appreciative of your kind and welcoming post.
Good to meet another Henzeian.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

wow 16K + 500 likes received,,,,you are well received around these parts.

Look forward to sharing Henze notes


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> T is consistently #1 in recalls. My wife and I almost crashed hard, when the famous gas pedal sticking, ran us into a wall at a curve,,,,near the cemetery ,,,the old gas pedal stick thingy, that affects all T's back in the day.
> H is proven to go 1M miles no serious issues


When I buy my next car, will I rely more on Consumer Reports that actually tests cars or depend on anecdotes and a history of a defect and related recalls that pre-date 2011? Thinking....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

<Looking over the 1st few posts,,,seems a certain Andre,made the very same ~~Realiation~~~ perhaps he had a ~~~Revelation~~~~and said *Henze one of the most significant European composers of the 20TH C** Only to be harshly rebutted with a *a bit over the top there bud, don't you think...*


Independently , he and I have this same premonition. 
I will never back down from what I know to be truth. 

I must hold onto certain beliefs , basing it on 35 yrs of musical listening,,,not to mention my rock and roll days. 
I know my music. 

Henze indeed is unfathomable , riches galore. 
This is why I brought up the Bach relation,,,both are proficient ,, bounteous , and supreme masters in theie perspective styles.
This is all I am saying, give recognition where genius is displayed.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

UNREAL,,,I've found more further collaborations which align EXACTLY with my unbiased, strongly opinionated beliefs about Henze,, UNREAL

* Henze stands alone, influences are there,,,but only scatly,,,he is his own composer...*

Paraphrase mine with added tweeks. 

UNREAL...
I am sure I quite sure now it was indeed Sid James and 1 other GMG member who made urgent suggestions I go for Henze. 
It was these few Henzeians who made desperate attempts to have my ears open,,,yet it would be another 14 yrs before I awakened from sleep. 


I am a cultist, which bypasses the Bachian religious fold.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

One of the interesting aspects of cultists is that they frequently feel the need to demean more traditional views in order to justify and bolster their own values. Obsessiveness run amok. Any view that cannot stand on its own without that is inherently suspect.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Becca said:


> One of the interesting aspects of cultists is that they frequently feel the need to demean more traditional views in order to justify and bolster their own values. Obsessiveness run amok. Any view that cannot stand on its own without that is inherently suspect.


Or is it, The Trads, the hardliners, feel a threat to their foundational structures and institutions, by the professed cultists...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paulbest said:


> Or is it, The Trads, the hardliners, feel a threat to their foundational structures and institutions, by the professed cultists...


I don't consider you a cultist; you're a poster who wants to call attention to himself. Unfortunately, quite a few other members take the bait.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

When facing an aesthetic or social crisis, grasping for labels can leave one empty-handed...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> I don't consider you a cultist; you're a poster who wants to call attention to himself. Unfortunately, quite a few other members take the bait.


I am nothing special, calling me out as a egoist, just because I fully support a composer who I am elated and estatic to share with you and others. 
I think that's a good thing,,,to enthusiastically share great art. don't you?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paulbest said:


> I am nothing special, calling me out as a egoist, just because I fully support a composer who I am elated and estatic to share with you and others.
> I think that's a good thing,,,to enthusiastically share great art. don't you?


Promoting particular composers through dumping on others is not what I would call sharing great art.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Besides I never came out to bash Bach,,,at which point I am more than a egoist, I am a lunatic,,,Bach has powerful richly structured masterpieces. 

Only a fool would wink at that.

What I am finding out, is that certain composers have their share of critics. 

Henze , I am just exploring,,,perhaps we could all refrain from slurs and just visit some of his music,,and all come back to report on our experiences,,whether good, bad, neutral. 
fair enough?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Promoting particular composers through dumping on others is not what I would call sharing great art.


You posted too soon, I just responded as you were writing...I knew you were coming back at me. sneak attack,,i was ready for ya


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Pride goes before a fall, humility goes before the wise man


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

An anecdote: In the late 1960's, Henze was one of the featured composers at an American, university-sponsored, festival of contemporary music. An acquaintance of mine wandered into the auditorium during an orchestral rehearsal and sat down. After finishing working on one piece, they took up another, and my friend relates that he said to himself aloud "Oh, no. Not more of this Henze s__t!" At which point a man seated three rows in front of him turned around and glared. It was, of course, Henze.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> When I buy my next car, will I rely more on Consumer Reports that actually tests cars or depend on anecdotes and a history of a defect and related recalls that pre-date 2011? Thinking....


I would be careful driving a Toyota. That was a very secretive episode.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

MarkW said:


> An anecdote: In the late 1960's, Henze was one of the featured composers at an American, university-sponsored, festival of contemporary music. An acquaintance of mine wandered into the auditorium during an orchestral rehearsal and sat down. After finishing working on one piece, they took up another, and my friend relates that he said to himself aloud "Oh, no. Not more of this Henze s__t!" At which point a man seated three rows in front of him turned around and glared. It was, of course, Henze.


UNREAL
THIS incident only reaffirms my suspicions that certain composers are held with a sort of , not neglect, but disdain. 
Even w/o a fair hearing.

Pettersson also is held in such contempt. 
Odd, but certainly has a certain reasonable possibility about this whole conspiracy.

Odd that I, of all here, who has no musical EDU, would go for the least popular.

Henze is a genius which is found among a rare few composers, in history, Bach also had this genius of composition, 
I see a connecting link, from Bach, to Mozart, to,,,may I be permitted to say it aloud,,,to

HENZE
Here is where Bach's influence shows up most clearly. 
I would not at all be surprised if Henze studied carefully Bach and Mozart. 
Its there, I can sense it, the fruit and flowering of Back via Mzoart, via Henze,,,A transmission of musical influences.
The circle is complete,, as Jung would say.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> I would be careful driving a Toyota. That was a very secretive episode.


What does that have to do with the present? Secretive episodes become public knowledge and improvements occur. That includes exploding gas tanks, defective ignition switches and defective airbags throwing shrapnel.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Heresy, Apostacy, Blashpemy"

The accuracy of spelling in the thread title is a good forecast of the subsequent accuracy of thinking. The whole thing is quite depressing.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> "Heresy, Apostacy, Blashpemy"
> 
> The accuracy of spelling in the thread title is a good forecast of the subsequent accuracy of thinking. The whole thing is quite depressing.


Three for three. Consistency is a virtue.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Just gave this a shot.... well, if one is looking for counterpoint, Henze might be your man... but maybe too much of that for me...


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

paulbest said:


> perhaps we could all refrain from slurs and just visit some of his music,,and all come back to report on our experiences,,whether good, bad, neutral.
> fair enough?


Well, that would be fair enough, but it's difficult to ignore that your OP didn't actually invite anyone to do that. Your OP title, and your views about 'myths and false doctrines' made this all about you and your opinions, not about either Bach or Henze.



paulbest said:


> OK, time to expose myths and false doctrines.
> I'll start,,,i can already feel the flames lick at my feet,,,,,
> Here goes
> Henze is greater than,,,Bach
> ...


Your
¬¬¬PERSONALITY~~~
is all that
matters here,,,isn't it?

{and never mind the cpelling)


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

KenOC said:


> "Heresy, Apostacy, Blashpemy"
> 
> The accuracy of spelling in the thread title is a good forecast of the subsequent accuracy of thinking. The whole thing is quite depressing.


I see you've hardly become a Henze enthusiast by what Paul has had to say, and won't be dumping any time soon all the Beethoven you been collecting all your life.

I've taken a more sanguine approch to Paul's proddings, and actually begun to listen to some Henge, which I think is all he's been trying to achieve. What I've heard so far is good. It's totally different from Bach, of course, but that's obvious.

On the whole, I think that Paul has worked out that the most efficient way of getting attention on this Board is to state things in a very direct way. A lot of people have been getting upset by his style too easily, not seeing the wood for the trees.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

Partita said:


> I see you've hardly become a Henze enthusiast by what Paul has had to say, and won't be dumping any time soon all the Beethoven you been collecting all your life.
> 
> I've taken a more sanguine approch to Paul's proddings, and actually begun to listen to some Henge, which I think is all he's been trying to achieve. What I've heard so far is good. It's totally different from Bach, of course, but that's obvious.
> 
> On the whole, I think that Paul has worked out that the most efficient way of getting attention on this Board is to state things in a very direct way. A lot of people have been getting upset by his style too easily, not seeing the wood for the trees.


Oh, I don't know. He seems to have had no difficulty 'getting attention' (actually, just making a contribution) in a few of the 9 pre-existing threads about Henze. For example...

Hans Werner Henze

It's true that the more provocative threads tend to be the most interesting (for those that want to do more than either read lectures or post in polls). Having said that, posters who exhibit a "deplorable excess of personality" (or who just write incomprehensibly) can be difficult to engage with. I'm glad you've seen the wood for the trees - and I too have noted in my last post that all s/he wanted to do was to get us to listen to Henze.

I might listen to some too...

Well, that was quick. I just tried Trio in 3 Sätzen, but I have to be in the right mood to sample such a style, so I'll have to try again later.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

paulbest said:


> I had writtena long winded post,,,electricity went out,,,this one will be shortened.
> 1), yes some composers havea shrine of sorts,,,The biggest 3 shrines are Mozart, Beethoven, and The Cathedral of Bach,,he boasts the largest faithful followers.
> 
> I myself am a cultist,.
> ...


Thank you.

Henze clearly had some reverence for composers who came before him.

I went searching and just listened to his Telemanniana on YouTube. It's an arrangement of pieces by the composer who was one of the big three of German Baroque, along with Bach and Handel.

I'm no longer a regular listener of the more rigorous atonal music. Having gone through a phase of exploring it I know there are riches there, Henze is among them.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Partita said:


> I see you've hardly become a Henze enthusiast by what Paul has had to say, and won't be dumping any time soon all the Beethoven you been collecting all your life.
> 
> I've taken a more sanguine approch to Paul's proddings, and actually begun to listen to some Henge, which I think is all he's been trying to achieve. What I've heard so far is good. It's totally different from Bach, of course, but that's obvious.
> 
> On the whole, I think that Paul has worked out that the most efficient way of getting attention on this Board is to state things in a very direct way. A lot of people have been getting upset by his style too easily, not seeing the wood for the trees.


I will readily admit I express, in a terse, at times long winded, ,,perhaps more gabby than loquacious , reasons for which are ofa personal nature. Please excuse my disabilities, which hopefully do not detract from , or deter my objective, my …~~~mission~~~ as others have hawked eyed. .
~~~Mission accomplished~~~
Too lazy to spell ck OP...
Thoughts cluttered.
Other personal deficiencies , got that.

~~~Forest through the trees~~~ yes please ignore my lack,,,my susceptibility to bloat my ideas just to annoy, like a fly you just can;'t swat down....
It is only for Partita's encouragement , who has kindly overlook my blantant, obvious weaknesses splattering all my posts , which obviously I've nor change since the old days at GMG, when I could even feel at times, if some could put their fist through thev screen, they would have done so.

That berated attitude is justified.

It is only with the support from Partita, I am able to say these things.
I *get* the message though.

All this exuberance over certain composers , can be traced back to my old R N R days. The Who, Jethro Tull, early stuff, Moody Blues, ,,Music has power to excite the imaginations.

No excuses for many of my outlandish *opinions*.(some I admit seem too strong for that protective word)

As I say I awoke with the idea, that Henze may indeed be a ~~acquired taste~~~ as per Mahler and Bruckner.

Just look at those threads, they are ecstatic about their composers music. Its a acquired taste.

I could have put all this over on the Henze room, for sure, you got me on that one. A hallroom of open discussion on Henze would have been the order of the day.
I opened myself up to attack and critical (misspell, weedy thoughts, laden with payloads of *dirt* (manure) just to find a gold flake)~~~ and fair assessments of my propositions on Henze and Bach.

The compare was out of place and a waste of time. 
Just what did I accomplish,,other than playing the ~~~fool~~~.
I've quipped several times on this board, take me as a grain of salt, I'm fishing deep, to see what lies below. 
And I found it. 
Henze is a acquired taste. This holds true for many of our favorite composers. We are all different in our taste, aesthetics , lifes experiences, all make us different and unique. No doubt about that.
Henze illicits a reaction in people.. ~~~ Stopping here to say, how did Henze take that slur from the man sitting behind him *Oh no not another selection from THAT composer, not again*,,,WOW, what resilience to overcome negativity~~~

Not sure what it is about his music, but certainly creates tensions and reactions of opinions.

The only other composer which has this ~~shock effect~~ would be my encounter with Alfred Schnittke's polystylism, eclectic expressionistic~~~.

Sometimes when one has a hidden agenda,,,to get attention to Henze in this case,,,there are sure to be regrets and also exposure to be labeled a fanatic in the original sense of the word.

*collecting Beethoven sets all your life*,,and maybe there is some of the angst. 
In my personal experience, one is best to give up something to gain something. Jung calls this transformation of the personality. 
Something new is born from death. That's as old as the hills, the Chinese sages would say.

anyhow, Hopefully some of what I just wrote helps make amends among us all, whatever composers camp we gather around. The High Arts is what ultimately unites us all, and let this be our bond of friendship and not division.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

paulbest said:


> I will readily admit I express, in a terse, at times long winded, ,,perhaps more gabby than loquacious , reasons for which are ofa personal nature. Please excuse my disabilities, which hopefully do not detract from , or deter my objective, my …~~~mission~~~ as others have hawked eyed. .
> 
> ...
> 
> anyhow, Hopefully some of what I just wrote helps make amends among us all, whatever composers camp we gather around. The High Arts is what ultimately unites us all, and let this be our bond of friendship and not division.


 Your basic purpose in opening this thread seemed clear to me: in summary (my words): _"if you haven't already done so, try Henze, as you might like his work, possibly opening up a new horizon, and giving you a break from Bach and all that, especially if you feel stuck in that era and don't know what 20[SUP]th[/SUP] C music you might try that could possibly sound similar"._

For those not interested in Henze, there was no need to respond with anything. Some may have felt the need to defend Bach, which in some instances of composer criticism I can understand that, but Bach is the composer who least needs "defending" so it was a waste of their time. For those who know Henze's work, and agree that it contains a lot of good stuff, they could have simply said so and left it there.

Instead, this thread has generated a load of rule-busting criticism of a member's style, some of it from the usual drama "queens" who hang out in this place like it's a second home. In addition there's been a lot of snarky comment, from a sprinkling of would-be pseudo musicologists, and some from people who usually have absolutely nothing of interest to say but say it anyway presumably to add their already grossly inflated post counts. On top of that, there's been the usual linguistic error "police" in action, trying to put one over on their latest victim.

In my case, I already had some of Henze's work but it hadn't strongly registered with me, but now, given the impetus derived from this thread, I've begun exploring more of it and so far I've found it enjoyable and worth adding.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Sid James said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Henze clearly had some reverence for composers who came before him.
> 
> ...


 Yes like Schnittke, Henze also pays his gratitude and respects for past masters in this High Art. 
His Telemanniana , a short tribute to Telemann, is best rendered on the Wergo relase,,The YT uploads, one of another label cd and the other a concert performance from Azusa University, both good, but much finer baroque lushness and beauty offered on the Wergo release.

Some here may be surprised, that like Schoenberg in his transcriptions of Bach,. Henze does a wonderful job at his baroque style of writing, bringing us a new image to Telemann's ornamental music.

Not sure why/how one can find a great composer,,and then,,,somehow ,,,fall away.
It willm take a lifetime to search all the riches I am finding in Henze.

I guess late in life, as I am, some composers take on more meaning,,,others less so. Henze is definitely a important part of my musical landscape in my ~~~over-the-hill~~ stage. 
At this point, one must unload some baggage , in order to pick up other new bags.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Partita said:


> Your basic purpose in opening this thread seemed clear to me: in summary (my words): _"if you haven't already done so, try Henze, as you might like his work, possibly opening up a new horizon, and giving you a break from Bach and all that, especially if you feel stuck in that era and don't know what 20[SUP]th[/SUP] C music you might try that could possibly sound similar"._
> 
> For those not interested in Henze, there was no need to respond with anything. Some may have felt the need to defend Bach, which in some instances of composer criticism I can understand that, but Bach is the composer who least needs "defending" so it was a waste of their time. For those who know Henze's work, and agree that it contains a lot of good stuff, they could have simply said so and left it there.
> 
> ...


You speak with authenticity and fairness. Seems you know the ropes on these boards, who is stepping over boundaries and other menial tripping hazards.

Oh yes, I am glad to know I've struck hard against anyone who is part and parcel of ~~The Status Quo~~~ the *institutional musical foundational structures~~~...My adoration for all things Henze is directed bullseye at them.

Go into the halls of any advanced EDU center,,,which composers music will be flirting through the hallways as you pass the corridors ?

The usual, the typical, the traditional, the common place.

Henze?

I'd like to see the cd shelves of all High art musicians around the world...Will I see Henze , and at the top shelf? Or how many actually have heard/know the composer by name or musical experience,,,and yet some around these boards have touted Henze as ,,get these apples would ya~~~ *One* of Europe's most significant 20th C composers~~~
As I say, I've made numerous attempts to edit wiki on Henze, to say *Germany's greatest late 20TH C composers...*, and now the wiki mods have me blocked from any further interference.

Wkik has allowed more on Stockhausen's bio page *influential,,,significant,,,important,,,* and such lauds. Backed by flimsy references. 
For me, Stockhausen is not really part of the High Arts epoch. 
It is apparent there will be conflicts and discussions to work through about late 20Th C composers. 
After 35 yrs in the High Arts, it does not take me long to make a assessment of music,,a few listens, I pretty much know where I stand with a composer.

But I can be surprised at times,,I gave up on Ligeti,,,then someone posted a UNREAL YT vid of Hennigan/Rattle in a highly eclectic and outrageous (in a very good way) score. I will make it a point to further explore Ligeti, after some yrs of rejecting his music. He may have other gems to offer,,we'll see.

Look forward to your comments on the Henze experience. His music is certainly not easy to jump into. Took some 14 yrs for me to make the discovery. I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box, that's for sure,,,others with musical training, talents can take up with Henze immediately, as they can grasp his ideas, his genius with their keener, broader open mind to the complexities , Henze so often offers. 
If , as you point out, the only good thing about this thread, that it perks attention for others ~at the very least~ to give Henze a moment of listening,,,,,then it was well worth taking ~~the cheap shots~~~ that came my way,,,the spit balls.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Becca said:


> One of the interesting aspects of cultists is that they frequently feel the need to demean more traditional views in order to justify and bolster their own values. Obsessiveness run amok. Any view that cannot stand on its own without that is inherently suspect.


Some of them go on to commit mass murder!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> UNREAL
> THIS incident only reaffirms my suspicions that certain composers are held with a sort of , not neglect, but disdain.
> Even w/o a fair hearing.
> 
> ...


That story could have occurred with any modern composer - including the vast majority who you have already rubbished.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2019)

Sid James said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Henze clearly had some reverence for composers who came before him.
> 
> ...


Did your investigations include work by Nikos Skolkattas? I became mildly interested in this composer about 3 years ago, but I didn't pursue it very far at the time. Since then I've listened to more on Spotify and have developed quite a strong liking for it. After a short while, one forgets that it's atonal music; you get swept up by the changing sounds that forms a nice change from the regularity of tonal music. I realise that Skalkottas' work is not all atonal. It's rather like that of Henge, a mixture depending on the particular piece.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Oh, never mind. Deleted post.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

paulbest said:


> UNREAL
> THIS incident only reaffirms my suspicions that certain composers are held with a sort of , not neglect, but disdain.
> Even w/o a fair hearing.
> 
> ...


Please understand that this was nearly 50 years ago and Henze was not a household name!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

MarkW said:


> Please understand that this was nearly 50 years ago and Henze was not a household name!


Yeah, I get your *not as well known as, say,,Beethoven, at that time...*
Understandable,,,new Kid on the block always has to fight his way upstream,,against the Forces, The Current Opinions..
Yet late 60's you say,,,well was not that the year Hendrix came out with *Are You Experienced*….Music that blew minds the most, was the most hip of the day.

Like Bach, Henze was far ahead of his time. 
As Bach had to await his notoriety , so too will, even moreso, will Henze.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I hate to say it but Henze was not far ahead of his time. He was occasionally a little radical in his early days but on the whole his music is relatively conservative for its time (a time when Stockhausen, Boulez, Ligeti and Nono were truly taking the world - the small world of contemporary music - by storm). Nothing necessarily wrong with being conservative (and even eclectic - which he also was) but if you want to serve his cause it would be better to be accurate.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Partita said:


> Your basic purpose in opening this thread seemed clear to me: in summary (my words): _"if you haven't already done so, try Henze, as you might like his work, possibly opening up a new horizon, and giving you a break from Bach and all that, especially if you feel stuck in that era and don't know what 20[SUP]th[/SUP] C music you might try that could possibly sound similar"._
> 
> For those not interested in Henze, there was no need to respond with anything. Some may have felt the need to defend Bach, which in some instances of composer criticism I can understand that, but Bach is the composer who least needs "defending" so it was a waste of their time. For those who know Henze's work, and agree that it contains a lot of good stuff, they could have simply said so and left it there.
> 
> ...


"..the usual drama "queens" who hang out in this place like it's a second home. In addition there's been a lot of snarky comment, from a sprinkling of would-be pseudo musicologists, and some from people who usually have absolutely nothing of interest to say but say it anyway presumably to add their already grossly inflated post counts."

You don't say who committed which offense. It's quite a nasty post from you, Partita. I'm sorry, but it just strikes me as much more offensive than what you're complaining about.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I hate to say it but Henze was not far ahead of his time. He was occasionally a little radical in his early days but on the whole his music is relatively conservative for its time (a time when Stockhausen, Boulez, Ligeti and Nono were truly taking the world - the small world of contemporary music - by storm). Nothing necessarily wrong with being conservative (and even eclectic - which he also was) but if you want to serve his cause it would be better to be accurate.


1st off I gave you a thumbs up. You offer good perspective and ideas about Post Modern High Arts.

Much to say, but health is poor at the moment....
so have to cut short my ,,rhetoric, some consider the content fluffy and ,,,,ridiculous,,,if not absurd..
Thanks for your response which gives me room to counter.
Sure, no doubt about it,,,if we take a survey of the above mentioned composers,,,,4 of the 5 would rank in various orders,,,yet Henze would most likely, rank 5th, consistently.
In todays world, means nothing, Everything is splintered into countless sects. 
each to his own.

But again, most of us are in close agreement, lists are nothing more than that, like a grocery list, list of things to do.

You say, Henze has some conservative tendencies in at least some of his prodigious output. can we say then, Henze of all the 5 mentioned, reaches back to music which has a long and varied list of composers.

2nd Viennese, Varese, Hartmann, and perhaps Szymanowski., Mahler.
and others.

Whereas in the other 4 mentioned,,,I hear a ~~clash~~~ with my trad experiences./

I must have connections for me to come around,,I follow traditional High Art, yet cast in a new creative style.

Take Bach, supreme master of baroque,,but then we have Vivaldi,,who may have had some influences on at least a few Bach works,,,yet Bach on Vivaldi as well. Both were exact contempories,,,_ we have Handel , Telemann, and then we should not forget Correli,,,not sure his dates of writing,,maybe pre Vivaldi. 
The Baroque is defined mainly by these 3 or 4.

Whereas when we approach Henze,,,i'm finishing up,,bear with me if you can,,,I am nearly falling out my chair,,,,His music seems to stand alone, yet has strong *mysterious* influences,,,His work is like a collage , and this is why I am so interested in his music. Seems to shift all over the spectrum.

Hope this post is more balanced and fair...,,, 
pardon my poor English....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> "..the usual drama "queens" who hang out in this place like it's a second home. In addition there's been a lot of snarky comment, from a sprinkling of would-be pseudo musicologists, and some from people who usually have absolutely nothing of interest to say but say it anyway presumably to add their already grossly inflated post counts."
> 
> You don't say who committed which offense. It's quite a nasty post from you, Partita. I'm sorry, but it just strikes me as much more offensive than what you're complaining about.


Hi, you seem a fair minded High Arts fan,,,how is my last post., #94.
Fair or~~~~ has some specks of ~~~Ludriciiousy~~~?

I am trying to get rid of any ~~~Absurdity~~~


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

When the president issues multiple nonsensical tweets every day disparaging everyone he doesn't like and claiming that he is right and the world is wrong, the media are understandably forced to pay attention.

When an obscure person does something similar, a similar response is harder to understand.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

King Trump, got himself into themes he's in,,,we all knew it would happen,,,he is projecting his shadow,,happens all the time,,,its just that Trump has a bad case of it. There area few who actually place,,,or lets say,,,~~~prefer~~~ Corelli,,over Bach,,,and a few others are more fans of Vivaldi, than the ~~~Crown Jewel~~~ Of the Baroque. 
Telemann and Handel also giants in the baroque trad. 


Bach may stand alone, yet at times he does not. 


I kind of feel this thread, accomplished little. 
I just had this hunch, that Henze would be more well known and liked around these parts. 
Its a good thing to test the waters,,,opens expression in all sorts of interesting posts.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> King Trump, got himself into themes he's in,,,we all knew it would happen,,,he is projecting his shadow,,happens all the time,,,its just that Trump has a bad case of it. There area few who actually place,,,or lets say,,,~~~prefer~~~ Corelli,,over Bach,,,and a few others are more fans of Vivaldi, than the ~~~Crown Jewel~~~ Of the Baroque.
> Telemann and Handel also giants in the baroque trad.
> 
> Bach may stand alone, yet at times he does not.
> ...


 There's nothing wrong with wanting to promote Henze. But the minute you draw a comparison between him and Bach the conversation is going to automatically revert to defending Bach as a greater composer. That's what's so bad about comparisons, and you keep doing it rather than simply discussing Henze alone with examples and allowing for reactions. The comparisons undercut everything you're trying to do and the disaster of that has been pointed out a number of times by others. You might consider doing it a different way unless you enjoy the fireworks of conflict. One composer… one thread. No more comparisons.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

paulbest said:


> Yes like Schnittke, Henze also pays his gratitude and respects for past masters in this High Art.
> His Telemanniana , a short tribute to Telemann, is best rendered on the Wergo relase,,The YT uploads, one of another label cd and the other a concert performance from Azusa University, both good, but much finer baroque lushness and beauty offered on the Wergo release.
> 
> Some here may be surprised, that like Schoenberg in his transcriptions of Bach,. Henze does a wonderful job at his baroque style of writing, bringing us a new image to Telemann's ornamental music.


Telemanniana reminded me of a piece that I only recently acquired on disc, Fantasia para un Gentilhombre by Rodrigo. It's less an outright arrangement and more like an expansion of pieces by Spanish Baroque composer Gaspar Sanz. There's something to be said for these types of homages to music of the past. Of course it's not new, e.g. Tchsikovsky's Mozartiana and Stravinsky's Pulcinella are earlier examples.



> Not sure why/how one can find a great composer,,and then,,,somehow ,,,fall away.
> It willm take a lifetime to search all the riches I am finding in Henze.
> 
> I guess late in life, as I am, some composers take on more meaning,,,others less so. Henze is definitely a important part of my musical landscape in my ~~~over-the-hill~~ stage.
> At this point, one must unload some baggage , in order to pick up other new bags.


My tastes simply changed. In some respects I am the reverse of you, moving to a more mainstream focus. The baggage I've shed is the heavier music, which isn't limited to post-1945. I find that I'm not that much into even Beethoven now, although have still retained some of his music.

In any case I am glad that I created the Henze thread all that time ago. It's good to think that future members such as yourself can draw on it as a resource and also add to it.



Partita said:


> Did your investigations include work by Nikos Skolkattas? I became mildly interested in this composer about 3 years ago, but I didn't pursue it very far at the time. Since then I've listened to more on Spotify and have developed quite a strong liking for it. After a short while, one forgets that it's atonal music; you get swept up by the changing sounds that forms a nice change from the regularity of tonal music. I realise that Skalkottas' work is not all atonal. It's rather like that of Henge, a mixture depending on the particular piece.


I still enjoy a lot of 20th century music, much of which doesn't strictly adhere to the diatonic system. Even Debussy is like that, and he's an example of a modernist who is very mainstream now.

I only had one disc of Skalkottas which was a vinyl I got second hand with chamber pieces including a piano trio and string quartet.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2019)

Partita said:


> Instead, this thread has generated a load of rule-busting criticism of a member's style, some of it from the usual drama "queens" who hang out in this place like it's a second home. In addition there's been a lot of snarky comment, from a sprinkling of would-be pseudo musicologists, and some from people who usually have absolutely nothing of interest to say but say it anyway presumably to add their already grossly inflated post counts. On top of that, there's been the usual linguistic error "police" in action, trying to put one over on their latest victim.


Anyone who stays here long enough will form a sense of members' 'online personality', accumulated over several threads (which is presumably how you form the idea that there are "drama queens" and "psedo musicologists" here.) Consequently, what some have read here (me included) is not just a thread about Henze, but something else carried across from, for example, the Misogyny on the Podium thread.

My preference is to take what posters say at face value, but there are times when the manner of saying it suggests there is something else going on and to challenge that seems right, though as you have found yourself, seeming to criticise 'posting style' is all too easy.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> There's nothing wrong with wanting to promote Henze. But the minute you draw a comparison between him and Bach the conversation is going to automatically revert to defending Bach as a greater composer. That's what's so bad about comparisons, and you keep doing it rather than simply discussing Henze alone with examples and allowing for reactions. The comparisons undercut everything you're trying to do and the disaster of that has been pointed out a number of times by others. You might consider doing it a different way unless you enjoy the fireworks of conflict. One composer… one thread. No more comparisons.


yes ,,yes,,,and yes
Thank you for kind advice
Adendas always side bind us
It was all puerish of me, this thread.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

paulbest said:


> Hi, you seem a fair minded High Arts fan,,,how is my last post., #94.
> Fair or~~~~ has some specks of ~~~Ludriciiousy~~~?
> 
> I am trying to get rid of any ~~~Absurdity~~~


In my opinion you're making more cogent points about this than you were earlier. I share with you the interest in a very dedicated composer writing in a modern manner, conceptually. For me, his pieces are an honest expression of his artistic outlook, and that's what I'm always looking for..


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> I I share with you the interest in a very dedicated composer writing in a modern manner, conceptually. For me, his pieces are an honest expression of his artistic outlook, and that's what I'm always looking for..


 One of the best post on this discussion and I will say Best of the day on TC.

I am having my stereo back from the shop this week, I plan to listen mostly to Henze ,,make sure I am hearing what I think I am hearing. 
Its a all tube stereo(French Jadis)+ worlds finest speakers (Denmark/SEAS) which should pick up tiny nuances which I may be missing out on these $20 computer speakers.

I'm expecting even more music than what I've heard so far.

Not to further cause any flaming , but I'd say Bach's music is captured nearly 95-100% on any given recording,,,whereas with Henze,,,we might only be hearing ,,say 90-95% of the score due to poor micing, poor sound systems and also when the passages on certain instruments are drowned out by heavy brass or the4 passages are scored as *to be played subtle,,so soft, the record mechanics just can't pick the notes up.

This is why I invested in my stereo,,which I've not heard since I bought it 10 yrs ago,,is to try to capture the subtlety which most systems miss.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

This thread made me look him up on youtube, so mission accomplished I suppose.






I liked it a lot! Reminds me quite a bit of Berg (one of my favourite 20th c. composers) in that combination of a Romantic style with dark atonalism. Better than Bach? Well, that's personal taste...but I liked what I heard a lot.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

He makes a helluva ketchup product, too!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Gallus said:


> This thread made me look him up on youtube, so mission accomplished I suppose.
> 
> I liked it a lot! Reminds me quite a bit of Berg (one of my favourite 20th c. composers) in that combination of a Romantic style with dark atonalism. Better than Bach? Well, that's personal taste...but I liked what I heard a lot.




~~~This missionary has brought in another believer~~~~.

I guess you were like *what is all the ruckus going on over on this roge style topic,,,comparing Bach with Henze,,,*
You had to go see for yourself if it was all bogus,,as we all know the news is only half truths,,or only what we WANT to hear...

Yet here is the ~~Good News~~~, I think the YT vid is the Wergo release..has the great,,,ok leave out the adj ~~great~~~,,,has the 7th sym...
Might try to find the amazon's listing for the Wergo 1-10 syms,,not easy to find on amazon 's serach engine,,for some reason, the only way to get to the listing for a ACTIVE listing of the 10 is to google
Henze Wergo Amazon,,there you will find a link to the set,,,for some reason,,you can not get there via amazon's serach engine,,,which says NOT AVALIABLE,,yet it is, for like $80,,,I bought all singles,,,anyway ..also to consider is the Capriccio release with the 8th, as super added bonus you get the Adagio, Fuge, und Manadentanz and another super extra bonus the Nachistucke und Arien,,,the music is great , the soprano Barainsky is only adequate up to the task.

I am a completeist in Henze so I have both. The Capriccio is the Koln Orch conducted by Stenz. 
Both are excellent versions, though you can read the amazon reviews for yourself and decide. I've not had time to make a compare.

*I like what I heard ~~a lot~~*

I think over the years you may become more impressed. 
There is also the 16 cd DG release, which I did not buy,,and most likely will not, as I have singles of what I needed only. 
Henze conducts his 1-6 DG can be had for under $20 The complete 16 cds, $60/$70

I played your link just now, and made this edit,,I see it is the Stenz/Koln.


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