# Mensural clefs or what in Debussy's music?



## Gargamel

In several places, Debussy uses clefs which look a bit like medieval (mensural) clefs, but still different. What's the point? Check out for instance, *Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un faune*.

Link: http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/...e_à_l'après-midi_d'un_faune_(orch._score).pdf


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## mikeh375

Do you mean the clefs for the violas and sometimes for the cellos Gargamel? If so they are C clefs and are the usual clef for the violas. It is known as the alto clef when pertaining to violas. For the cellos, the clef (which defines where middle C is) is in a different position and is used when the cello part goes higher into their register to eliminate ledger lines. It is known as the tenor clef when used in the cello stave position.
There is nothing unusual at all with the C clef, it is the norm in orchestral work.


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## Gargamel

Yes, the clefs in the violas. Nothing new in what you told me. I know there's nothing unusual with the alto clef, but the alto clefs used here _look_ very unusual. Even in different versions of this score. I've never seen an alto clef that looks like this in german music.


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## mikeh375

Just trying to be helpful in the absence of any detail from you about what you know.
Different publishers, different fonts will be the reason I suppose. Things also change over time. Is the score a German edition then?


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## Gargamel

mikeh375 said:


> Just trying to be helpful in the absence of any detail from you about what you know.
> Different publishers, different fonts will be the reason I suppose. Things also change over time. Is the score a German edition then?


I don't know. I just know there's this alto clef looks very different from the usual alto clef you would see in Brahms, Beethoven, Wagner etc.

Peculiarly, this weird-looking alto clef is actually used throughout several different editions of the same work found on IMSLP.


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## mikeh375

….well at least it defines middle C emphatically and means nothing else. It really is just a variation of which there are a few. Just an older printing style with no other musical significance.


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## SuperTonic

The design of the C clef in any particular published score would be determined by the publisher, not the composer. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what Debussy or any other composer actually wrote in their original manuscripts.
The name of the publisher for the Debussy score you posted in the OP isn't anywhere that I could find in the score, but it might be included on the IMSLP detail page for that work. I bet that if you look at other scores from the same publisher you'd see the same C clef design there as well.


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## Euler

Monteverdi's original format scores have the C-clef written like that, the "ladder clef". I think archaic forms persisted longer in England and France.

C-clef evolution is something like:


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## mbhaub

After some experience playing orchestral music you learn to recognize the print style for different publishers. You can tell instantly if an older page was printed by Simrock, Barenreiter, Breitkopf, Boosey, and easiest to spot: Novello. Nowadays, with everyone using computer typesetting it's not as apparent. The French publishers had other symbols that were odd: their quarter-rest is a backwards eighth-rest and causes so much misreading in inexperienced groups.


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