# conducter redundant?



## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

*sighs loudly* I am sorry, I moved this topic and left a link in the old forum and as i deleted this link, the whole thread was deleted

Ok let me sum up what we had: 

The main question brought up by Quaverion was whether conducters are redundant or not. Actually many thought that in general the orchestra could play alone, but the conducter is like a high instance which can control from an upper part and focus all energy in himself. Then came up the question about female conducter and that they are really rare to find.

At last Harvey was sharing his orchester experience with us, that the conducter was really redundant and all were paying attension on the concert master - our Harvey. 

So far as i remember, I am sorry again. Maybe there will go on a fresh new debatte.


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## Nox (Jul 22, 2004)

...they are not redundant! They add flavour...I love watching the conductor!...:joy:


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## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by daniel_@Jul 31 2004, 11:27 AM
> *The main question brought up by Quaverion was whether conducters are redundant or not.
> *


I didn't bring that one up.  I forget who did, though.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

oooops, I didn't remember either, it was a mistake  ok up to the anonym donator of this topic


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## max (Jul 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by daniel_@Jul 31 2004, 11:27 AM
> **sighs loudly* I am sorry, I moved this topic and left a link in the old forum and as i deleted this link, the whole thread was deleted
> [snapback]949[/snapback]​*


Turn on the IPB trash can and hide it to all but admin... It'll let you recover if you make this mistake... and oh, that sounds like a bug in this version of IPB, it should have let you delete the link, but keep the topic...


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

I will do that, thanks, Max, for your great support in all matters!


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## shostyscholar (Jul 23, 2012)

How many people who thought a conductor could be gotten rid of were actually, working ensemble musicians? 

I am, and I think the idea that the conductor can be eliminated, at least for all works, is preposterous. Many works would be completely unplayable without a conductor - for example, Mahler symphonies.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I can think of a few conductors who seem redundant. In the past, conductors had a lot more impact than they do today. They were more creative, less like traffic cops.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

A good conductor is worth his weight in batons; a bad one might as well not even be there.

A recent example. A few years ago I realized I had no recording of Beethovern's Overture "The Consecration of the House" -- a piece I remembered thinking highly of when younger. Found a cheap Naxos CD of complete Beethoven overtures with one of the Naxos stable of unsung orchestras/conductors. Listened. Thought "yeah, it's nice, but not as good as I remembered." A few months later found a used copy of a Phillips set of complete Beethoven overtures with Kurt Masur. "Consecration" proved not only as good as I had remembered, but better. Similarly with the Leonores and most of the others. I attribute most of the improvement to Masur vs. Conductor X, rather than the orchestras. 

Yes, a good group of musicians doesn't always NEED a conductor, but a good conductor can often get results that the musicians themselves may not be able to.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

If you've ever been in any ensemble larger than a chamber group, you know how important the conductor is. Somebody has to keep the strings in line. They have absolutely NO sense of rhythym.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

there is an inevitable time when you need someone to indicate who goes when or when to stand.

also in rehearsals extra info to the performers such as an appropriate type of ad lib for the style of music.

and as an mc introducing the songs.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Why do all the older posts have random symbols in the middle of the words?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

LordBlackudder said:


> and as an mc introducing the songs.


I have never ever seen this...


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

violadude said:


> Why do all the older posts have random symbols in the middle of the words?


Those were special characters (apostrophes, etc.) they are sometimes represented as so called HTML entities (&entity_name, &entity_number), but for some reason they aren't parsed correctly in this topic.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Does a football team need a coach? Nah..they can play by themselves

Do students need a teacher? Nah...they can learn by themselves

Do actors need a director? Nah...they can play by themselves

Does a country need laws? Nah...
(I could go on...)


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

violadude said:


> Why do all the older posts have random symbols in the middle of the words?


It's in fact the tears of a necro-bumped thread.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In the old Soviet Union, there was an experimental orchestra known as the "Persiflams" ensemble.
This is a Russian acronym meaning "first symphonic ensemble." It was not a chamber orchestra, but a full-sized one , and it had no conductor . 
The aim was to create an orchestra which could function without one. The members said they were not opposed to conductors per se, just bad ones ! They were able to give concerts, but required much,much more reharsal time to prepare . The concertmaster acted as a kind of default conductor , starting pieces to keep them in sync . 
But it would be absolutely impossible for a full orchestra to function this way as an orchestra playing a different program every week throughout a long season, as we have today . There just would not be enough time to do this or to schedule enough rehearsals . 
The individual musicians are responsible for their individual parts, but the conductor has to have studied the full score thoroughly before steping onto the podium. If you've never seen a full orchestral score ,it contains all the different instruments paying their parts shown simultaneously ; woodwinds, flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons ,piccolo, English horn, bass clarinet and contrabassoon if called for ,
then brass, with horns, trumpets , trombones and tuba etc, then percussion, plus harp if needed, then, first violins, second violins, violas, cellos and basses . All on top of each other !
It's like trying to read a book with 20 or 30 different sentences going on at the same time ! Any one who can read music can learn to follow a score if you work at it. 
Not only that, clarinets, horns and trumpets are transposing instruments, where what is written as c may be the actual pitc of B flat, G or whatever . In addition to instruments written in treble or bass clef, violas have their own viola clef, and sometimes others are used . 
You can easily obtain scores to follow works from certain publishers, such as Dover press, which is excellent and cheap. There are also miniature scores if you would like to follow the score at a live performance, or just to save space at home.
Conducting is not a job for sissies !


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2012)

Presumably, what the audience rarely sees is the work that goes on in rehearsal.

I watched all the Barenboim/Divan Orch Beethoven symphonies at the Proms this year, and presumed that at those points where Barenboim appeared to be filing his nails, it was because the orchestra was already doing what had been agreed in rehearsal. Where he clearly intervened would be places where he wished to adjust the emphasis, or the dynamics, based on his hearing of the whole. I'd be surprised if Mr Timpani, raised above the majority and placed at the back (where he can do least damage) would be a good judge of the whole sound.

Of course orchestras need a conductor.


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