# Could we please merge with the Vocal Music forum?



## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

We seem to be slipping over into discussing songs in addition to operatic music (so long as they're sung by people who also sing opera?), and Huzzah say I. Is it time to amalgamate with the Vocal forum? Or at least be given official dispensation to keep on where we're headed?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ewilkros said:


> We seem to be slipping over into discussing songs in addition to operatic music (so long as they're sung by people who also sing opera?), and Huzzah say I. Is it time to amalgamate with the Vocal forum? Or at least be given official dispensation to keep on where we're headed?


I would suspect that a good deal of what you guys discuss is choral music which we never discuss nor does there appear to be any interest. I introduce songs into mezzo contests and sometimes for the men as there are so many fewer arias for lower voices to choose from.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ewilkros said:


> We seem to be slipping over into discussing songs in addition to operatic music (so long as they're sung by people who also sing opera?), and Huzzah say I. Is it time to amalgamate with the Vocal forum? Or at least be given official dispensation to keep on where we're headed?


I agree with you. The vocal forum gets so little traffic that merging with the opera forum might give it a bit of a boost. I'm a member of another forum that groups all vocal, choral and opera posts together and it works well that way, even if the majority of posts are about opera.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I agree with you. The vocal forum gets so little traffic that merging with the opera forum might give it a bit of a boost. I'm a member of another forum that groups all vocal, choral and opera posts together and it works well that way, even if the majority of posts are about opera.


Yes - I noticed that the Vocal Music Forum gets posts separated in time by days, not minutes like here, and that the most recent post in the thread at the bottom of their Page 1 is over a year old. A substantial part of what's posted there is about, for instance, Nuits d'été, Lied von der Erde, Four Last Songs, Lieder, etc., in posts that might have been of interest here. But mainly I wanted us to have the freedom to post about songs and solo-orchestral music without having our hands slapped. The songs of Strauss, Rachmaninov, and that new guy Sibelius should be worth looking into whether their composers are on the operatic A-List or not. And if some choral music is encountered along the way, hey: new horizons.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> Is it time to amalgamate with the Vocal forum? Or at least be given official dispensation to keep on where we're headed?


It was discussed before, somewhere in the contest on Frühling by Strauss, probably the round with Arroyo. The admin was OK with having song contests here in the opera forum. 

I have nothing against merging with the vocal forum. I just don't want to go check vocal forum if any contests are there. My google already remembers I visit opera forum and I want it to stay that way.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

An alternative would be to lump all vocal music into a vocal music forum. I can't think of a good reason to give precedence to opera over lieder and choral music.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Bulldog said:


> An alternative would be to lump all vocal music into a vocal music forum. I can't think of a good reason to give precedence to opera over lieder and choral music.


What I was asking for.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Bulldog said:


> An alternative would be to lump all vocal music into a vocal music forum. I can't think of a good reason to give precedence to opera over lieder and choral music.


It is inconvenient for me, I don't want it and I am not alone.

Edit: OK, I am not sure about what you are suggesting.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> It is inconvenient for me, I don't want it and I am not alone.
> 
> Edit: OK, I am not sure about what you are suggesting.


Just to change the forum title from opera to vocal. Do you only enjoy opera?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Bulldog said:


> Just to change the forum title from opera to vocal. Do you only enjoy opera?


I strongly prefer opera but I am OK with merging. Maybe "Vocals and Opera" would be best for a better orientation of newcomers, even though it is not a logical title.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> I strongly prefer opera but I am OK with merging. Maybe "Vocals and Opera" would be best for a better orientation of newcomers, even though it is not a logical title.


Would "Vocal Music (Song, Opera, Choral)" or similar work?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> Would "Vocal Music (Song, Opera, Choral)" or similar work?


OK for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The other forum I was talking about has an Opera and Vocal forum, which is apparently for the discussion of all vocal, opera and staged music, including ballet, though I think most people forget that, as there is little discussion of ballet music. Opera, vocal and choral all co-exist quite happily together though, even if opera and vocal posts outnumber choral. I think it works well and I would be happy if they merged on this forum too.

I started the _Nuits d'été _thread there, but I think it wold have got more contributions if it had been in the opera thread. I also started a Vocal Recitals thread in our Opera on DVD, BluRay and CD subforum and I post about recitals of both lieder and opera arias, as many singers are active in both fields.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Ok by me, though I’ve often checked the Vocal Music forum.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

In forming or reforming any community, it's always good idea to ensure its main description is significatly exclusive regardless of the popular opinion. If that esotericism synergizes, you have coalition. If you have two exclusive doctrines however, the future won't bode well.

Said experiment follows:
Survey genres by order preference.
A Opera
B Vocal
C Chamber and Solo
D Orchestral

Marry when majority = cases where A=1 B=2 and B=1 A=2
Kill when majority = cases where A=1 B=3,4 and B=1 A=3,4


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ethereality said:


> In forming or reforming any community, it's always good idea to ensure its main description is significatly exclusive regardless of the popular opinion. If that esotericism synergizes, you have coalition. If you have two exclusive doctrines however, the future won't bode well.
> 
> Said experiment follows:
> Survey genres by order preference.
> ...


So is opera the dog or the cat?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> So is opera the dog or the cat?


It would be only appropriate to hold a singing contest first. I venture to guess more operatists will favor the voice of cat than vocalists do, or perhaps we're attempting to lead this result subconciously back to two-doctrine division.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Ethereality said:


> In forming or reforming any community, it's always good idea to ensure its main description is significatly exclusive regardless of the popular opinion.* If that esotericism synergizes, you have coalition.* If you have two exclusive doctrines however, the future won't bode well.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I would definitely keep "Opera" in the title - "Opera and Vocal Music" perhaps... or better yet, "Opera, Vocal Music, and the Songs of Ireland"...

Wait... Make that "Opera, Vocal Music, and the Songs of Ireland that you've come to know and love"... yeah... I like that last one... We'll use that.


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## Mister Meow (10 mo ago)

The Opera forum here has probably about 20 times more activity than the Vocal Music forum, so if they were to be merged, the Vocal Music forum would essentially disappear. If someone was interested in art songs, but not opera, they'd have to read about 20 opera-themed titles just to find the one vocal music thread that they might be interested in, on the average. So I would vote for keeping them separate, unless there was some good way to distinguish the art songs vs. the operas vs. the choral music.

Here's another idea: rename this forum from "Opera" to "Opera and Opera Singers".


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I asked our moderator if we can do this and I will report back. Be deciding what you want to call it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

We're discussing it in the moderating team, and will let you know. But indeed, if we want to go ahead, we do need a name for the merged forum.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

*"If that esotericism synergizes, you have coalition."*


Becca said:


>


That was my favorite part too. My mother used to remind me of it when sending me off to school. It's why I got straight As in the 4th grade.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

This would be the sanity clause. Except there ain’t no sanity clause!😂 With thanks to Chico Marx.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> We're discussing it in the moderating team, and will let you know. But indeed, if we want to go ahead, we do need a name for the merged forum.


Why not simply Opera, Vocal & Choral?


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> We're discussing it in the moderating team, and will let you know. *But indeed, if we want to go ahead, we do need a name for the merged forum*.


Unless I'm greatly mistaken, we've already settled on "Opera, Vocal Music, and the Songs of Ireland that you've come to know and love"


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> Unless I'm greatly mistaken, we've already settled on "Opera, Vocal Music, and the Songs of Ireland that you've come to know and love"


On a more serious note, have you heard John McCormack’s version of She Moved Through The Fair with Gerald Moore accompanying? Just brilliant.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> On a more serious note, have you heard John McCormack’s version of She Moved Through The Fair with Gerald Moore accompanying? Just brilliant.


Heard it? - I was born in Dublin - I've sung it more times than I can remember and certainly more times than people actually wanted me to - "Oh, fer Christ's sake, Shaughnessy, give it a rest, lad - Jaysus" -


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Opera is a rather unique and large subgenre of Classical music.

Choral and vocal music is usually considerably different subgenre.

So where does *Oratorio* land?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> Opera is a rather unique and large subgenre of Classical music.
> 
> Choral and vocal music is usually considerably different subgenre.
> 
> So where does *Oratorio* land?


I consider it as opera


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Why not simply Opera, Vocal & Choral?


I like the idea of merging, and I like this title. It's simple and it covers the bases.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Why not just Vocal. That covers anything that has voices be it opera, lieder, oratorio or barber-shop quartet!😂


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Why not just Vocal. That covers anything that has voices be it opera, lieder, oratorio or barber-shop quartet!😂


Don't forget joik. And don't BE a joik.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I prefer to be alert. The country needs more lerts!😎


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Don't forget joik. And don't BE a joik.


I prefer to leave that particular idiosyncrasy to my American cousins🥸


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I prefer to leave that particular idiosyncrasy to my American cousins🥸


They have joiks only in Noo Yawk and Nawth Joisey.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I have now decided to be aware because we now have enough lerts. 😎


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Barbebleu said:


> I have now decided to be aware because we now have enough lerts. 😎


I'll be frank: can't you be earnest?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

It's interesting to note that this thread has had 38 posts, whereas the similar one over on the vocal forum has only had six, the last one 22 hours ago.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> *It's interesting to note that this thread has had 38 posts, whereas the similar one over on the vocal forum has only had six, the last one 22 hours ago.*


I was wandering around the "Vocal Music" section and stumbled upon this... 

The words - "Can't find Les Nuits d'Eté - Send help! - For God's sake, hurry!" were scratched in the mud...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Alright, here we go.

Merging forums can probably be done (by VS) but can not be undone. So it is not something we should do if there are potential drawbacks. 

This looks like an idea that is welcome in the Opera forum, not so much in the Vocal Music forum, based on the feedback received. The Opera forum is an order of magnitude more active than the Vocal Music forum, so the members who prefer to post/read about Vocal Music other than opera would need to scroll past mainly opera topics.

The main reason for the proposed merger is that members who frequent the opera forum like to include threads about comparing (opera) singers singing works that are not opera. The concern is that the people interested in such contests but not in opera would not see them. BBSVK's suggestion to create a thread in the Vocal Music forum with links to these contests in the Opera forum is an excellent one, but it requires continuous maintenance.

We suggest that at least for the time being we leave things as it is, which means we are fine with having these "threads about comparing (opera) singers singing works that are not opera" in the opera forum, given the target audience. We will try to alert the people frequenting the vocal music forum of the existence of such threads in the opera forum by posting a sticky there, telling them in general about the existence of these contests, but without providing updated links. 

If there are no objections, I will put up such a sticky thread in the vocal music forum tomorrow.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Alright, here we go.
> 
> Merging forums can probably be done (by VS) but can not be undone. So it is not something we should do if there are potential drawbacks.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the care you and your team take with our issues, especially one this complex.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Alright, here we go.
> 
> Merging forums can probably be done (by VS) but can not be undone. So it is not something we should do if there are potential drawbacks.
> 
> ...


I'm happy to go along with things as they are. We also occasionally need to remind visitors to the opera forum that they should drop in on the vocal forum from time to time as there might well be threads there that would interest them. Some of our members didn't even know of the existence of the Vocal forum.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Why not just Vocal. That covers anything that has voices be it opera, lieder, oratorio or barber-shop quartet!😂


Say Wha-a-at? No Au Pair Uh? Get a grip.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> *Some of our members didn't even know of the existence of the Vocal forum.*


Just a head's up for those of you who may plan to visit the Vocal Music forum - Watch your step - Don't trip over the dried skeletal remains of those members who wandered in there and then couldn't find their way back...


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> *BBSVK's suggestion to create a thread in the Vocal Music forum with links to these contests* in the Opera forum is an excellent one,* but it requires continuous maintenance.*


First... @BBSVK is one of my favorite members - Smart, funny, kind of off-the-wall, almost completely nuts, but really very personable and oddly likeable.

Second... BBSVK has written a least six posts which read "Can someone please do this, this, and this and then that, that, and that, and maybe this also for me? - I'm too lazy" in which she is, for all intents and purposes, trying to trick us into doing her homework for her.

Third... Less than 30 seconds after she offered to create the thread with links, she essentially retracted her offer by warning us that she shouldn't be counted upon to actually do this updating because she either wasn't entirely certain that she was actually going to be here to do so and/or that she may have already completely lost interest in said maintenance within the 30 seconds that it took to finish the last post making the offer and start the second post which retracted the offer.

Art, you're probably going to need a back-up plan...


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> First... @BBSVK is one of my favorite members - Smart, funny, kind of off-the-wall, almost completely nuts, but really very personable and oddly likeable.
> 
> Second... BBSVK has written a least six posts which read "Can someone please do this, this, and this and then that, that, and that, and maybe this also for me? - I'm too lazy" in which she is, for all intents and purposes, trying to trick us into doing her homework for her.
> 
> ...


30 seconds ? Really ???


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

My understanding is, there will be a general warning, that Lieder contest can sometimes be found in the opera forum, and this warning will stay on the top of the Vocal forum forever. Or whatever the expression "sticky thread" means.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> ... Or whatever the expression "sticky thread" means.


_You_ know: like a spiderweb.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

BBSVK said:


> *Or whatever the expression "sticky thread" means.*





ewilkros said:


> _*You*_* know: like a spiderweb.*


_Exactly_ like a spiderweb... Except, maybe without the "screaming in terror" part...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> Smart, funny, kind of off-the-wall, almost completely nuts, but really very personable and oddly likeable.


That describes almost everyone here!

N.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Say Wha-a-at? No Au Pair Uh? Get a grip.


You’ll need to explain this one to me Nina! Dense Scot and all that!🤣


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