# Favourite Orchestral Scherzo?



## Kurkikohtaus

So, what are your favourite orchestral scherzos?

Certainly Beethoven had marvelous ones, the 9th immediately coming to mind... but there are so many!

Instead of creating a poll where your favourite choice may not be, lets just keep a running commentary here, I'm sure some interesting and rare ones will come up.

As for me, my favourite is the 3rd mvmt of *Bruckner 4th*!


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## ChamberNut

There are many great scherzos. I love the grand Molto vivace 2nd mvt. of Beethoven's 9th, as you mentioned. That is certainly near the top my list.

If I can only pick one favorite, it would have to be the 2nd mvt. Scherzo of Bruckner's 9th Symphony.

However, if I'm not forced to pick just one, here are some more of my favorites:

 

Beethoven - Symphony # 3, 3rd mvt.; 

Beethoven - Symphony # 6 Pastoral, 3rd and 4th mvts. An impressive contrast to the remainder of this serene and peaceful work.

Beethoven - Symphony # 7, 3rd mvt.

Schumann - Symphony No. 4, 3rd mvt.

Bruckner - Symphony No. 3 , 3rd mvt.

Bruckner - Symphony No. 6, 3rd mvt

Bruckner - Symphony No. 7, 3rd mvt.

Bruckner - Symphony No. 4, 3rd mvt.


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## Lisztfreak

Mmmm, scherzos are delicious. So simple yet such fun.

Sibelius - Symphony no.1, 3rd mvt. : I've posted it already, it's an excellent little scherzo 
and the timpani make it so memorable. Also the one in his 6th.

Bruckner - I love both his 4th and 9th Sym scherzos (nearly as much as you do,
ChamberNut  ). The one in the 4th is in a forest hunting mood, and the 9th a
scary, doom-day and explosive movement.

Beethoven - especially the scherzos in his 7th, 3rd, 5th and 9th

Brahms - Symphony no.4, 3rd mvt.

Schumann - Symphony no.4, 3rd mvt. Yes, it's cool.

Liszt - the 'Mephisto' of his Faust Symphony, which is in fact a scherzo based on
earlier Faust themes. Grotesque, terribly chromatic and bitingly ironical.

These are only my top favourites.


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## Keemun

How can I tell if a movement is a scherzo? A number of the movements identified above as scherzos are not actually labeled "scherzo." I researched the definition of "scherzo" but there doesn't seem to be a concrete rule as to what is considered a scherzo and what is not. From what I can tell, a scherzo is usually, _but not always_, in 3/4 time. Likewise, it is usually, _but not always_, "lively," "light-hearted," etc. Does a quick tempo make it a scherzo? Is there a right or wrong answer to whether a movement is a scherzo, or is it a subjective determination?


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## Lisztfreak

Well, it's hard to say for sure - like you, Keemun, I haven't heard a firm definition. But usually it can be told following this criteria:

1. 3/4 (or 2/4 rarely) time [as you mentioned]
2. Light, playful - not always (c.f. Bruckner)! [as you mentioned, too]
3. Ironic, grotesque, jocund etc.
4. The third movement of a normally arranged post-classical symphony
5. Quick, prominent (allegro or something like that), and it's not the 1st nor the 4th
movement of such a symphony
6. By the title  
7. The form of a complex three-part song (aba cdc aba, or extended)

That's what I think usually works.


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## Kurkikohtaus

Lisztfreak said:


> 4. The third movement of a normally arranged post-classical symphony.


The third movement is the traditional position of the scherzo, as Beethoven substituted the "Scherzo" into the Menuet's traditional position. Later composers sometimes switch around the middle movements of the symphony, so that the scherzo is 2nd and the slow mvmt is 3rd, but you don't see that very often.

Since we're starting to run up nice long lists, anyone else like the 3rd mvmt of *Dvorak's 9th*?


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## opus67

Kurkikohtaus said:


> anyone else like the 3rd mvmt of *Dvorak's 9th*?


Me does.


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## Kurkikohtaus

The reason I asked was that that movement, along with the 3rd mvmts of the 7th and 8th are very Slavonic-Dance-Like in character, with their proportions and forms somewhat expanded so that they fit into symphonies. In my quest for variety and non-traditional programming in my orchestra's "Pops" series, I extracted that movement from the New World Symphony and put it on a program with Gershwin (Rhapsody) and Loewe (My Fair Lady), among other works.

The musicians in the orchestra didn't take too kindly to the New World Symphony being sliced up, but the audience loved it.


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## Lisztfreak

Slavonic rules!


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## ChamberNut

I forgot to mention Dvorak's 7th Symphony, 3rd mvt. Scherzo, I love it! 

Well, that's one I forgot.....I'm sure there's more.


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## Kurkikohtaus

Dvořák's 7th Scherzo is a great example of such a movement that is not strictly in triple meter. It is in 6/4 (felt in 2 groups of 3 quarter notes), with a strong counter-melody/rhythm in 3/2.

Interestingly, this co-existance of a duple compound meter and a triple simple meter, with neither one being "right" or definitive, is a characteristic of South American folk music (listen to the Argentinian group _Inti Ilimani_ to hear this taken to an extreme). That said, there is nothing South American about these Dvorak movements, as this feeling in Czech music comes from the Slavic folk dance called the _Furiant_.

Examples of _Furiant_ in Czech classical music are Smetana's Furiant from _3 dances from the Bartered Bride_, Dvorak's Slavonic Dances op. 46 nos. 1 and 8, and the schezo from Dvorak's *6th* Symphony. The aforementioned scherzo from the 7th has a 3over2 feel, but is not a furiant.


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## ChamberNut

Would typical 3rd and final movement Rondos of Concertos qualify as scherzos?

If so, then I have MANY more favorite orchestral scherzos.


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## Manuel

> 3. Ironic, grotesque, jocund etc.


The 2nd mov from Shostakovich's first violin concerto.

and the 2nd mov in Prok's 5th symphony.


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## Keemun

Lisztfreak said:


> Well, it's hard to say for sure - like you, Keemun, I haven't heard a firm definition. But usually it can be told following this criteria:
> 
> 1. 3/4 (or 2/4 rarely) time [as you mentioned]
> 2. Light, playful - not always (c.f. Bruckner)! [as you mentioned, too]
> 3. Ironic, grotesque, jocund etc.
> 4. The third movement of a normally arranged post-classical symphony
> 5. Quick, prominent (allegro or something like that), and it's not the 1st nor the 4th
> movement of such a symphony
> 6. By the title
> 7. The form of a complex three-part song (aba cdc aba, or extended)
> 
> That's what I think usually works.


Thanks for the help, Lisztfreak, now I can try to compile a list.


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## Keemun

Here’s my list:

Beethoven: Symphony No. 9, 2nd mvt.

Beethoven: Symphony No. 6, 3rd mvt.

Bruckner: Symphony No. 4, 3rd mvt.

Bruckner: Symphony No. 7, 3rd mvt.

Mahler: Symphony No. 2, 3rd mvt.

Mahler: Symphony No. 5, 3rd mvt.

Sibelius: Symphony No. 6, 3rd mvt.

(Please let me know if any of these are not considered scherzos.)


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## Kurkikohtaus

ChamberNut said:


> Would typical 3rd and final movement Rondos of Concertos qualify as scherzos?


Typically, no, those rondos are Finale mvmts that also appear as Rondo Finales of 4 mvmt syphonies. The scherzo mvmts are traditionally inserted before the finale of a symphony and traditionally do not appear in Concertos.


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## Manuel

> Dvořák's 7th Scherzo is a great example of such a movement that is not strictly in triple meter. It is in 6/4 (felt in 2 groups of 3 quarter notes), with a strong counter-melody/rhythm in 3/2.


Other example of 6/4 is the great _Scherzo for motorcycle and orchestra_.


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## Kurkikohtaus

LOL, is that by Malcolm Arnold? I know he's written some crazy pieces (vaccuum cleaners, etc), but I haven't heard of this one.


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## Manuel

> LOL, is that by Malcolm Arnold?


Hmmm...

Check yourself


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## Edward Elgar

My fav is the 2nd movement of Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony.

Sorry, but going away from orchestral scherzos, I'd just like to say Brahms's C minor piano quartet 2nd movement is amazing. It's exacly the way a good scherzo should be - aggressive to begin with, but then calm in the interlude.


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## Manuel

> I'd just like to say Brahms's C minor piano quartet 2nd movement is amazing


I can only concur.


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## Kurkikohtaus

Edward Elgar said:


> It's exacly the way a good scherzo should be - aggressive to begin with, but then calm in the interlude.


"Interlude" = "*Trio*"... (usually)


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## ChamberNut

I need to start a thread for "Favorite Chamber Music Scherzos"


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## Woodley6453

3rd Movement - Bruckner #4
3rd Movement - Any Beethoven (Love 3,5,9)
The scherzo from Dvorak's Ninth is truly beautiful as well
And I would day any Bruckner Scherzo you can be fairly confident will be exceptional

I also love the third movement of Sibelius' 1st.


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## david johnson

beethoven 9
prokofiev 5


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## Rondo

Bruckner's 4th:III, 3:III, 7:III, and scherzo from 9th; Schezro Capriccio (Dvorak), Scherzo in F by Rachmaninoff (very simplistic, but good), Grachaninov I:III, and Concerto for Cello and Orchestra (John Williams):III.


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## Manuel

Eric683 said:


> Concerto for Cello and Orchestra (John Williams):III.


Never heard that one, but I'm sure it doesn't beat his fabulous _Scherzo for Motorcycle and orchestra_. My fav.


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## Rondo

That would actually be a tough one...for me anyway


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## ChamberNut

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Examples of _Furiant_ in Czech classical music the schezo from Dvorak's *6th* Symphony.


Just listened to the Dvorak 6th Symphony last night. A great symphony overall, and that 3rd. mvt. Scherzo (furiant) is such pure fun! Fantastic scherzo!


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## Manuel

ChamberNut said:


> and that 3rd. mvt. Scherzo (furiant) is such pure fun! Fantastic scherzo!


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## Novelette

A tie between Beethoven's 9th and Saint-Saens' 2nd [Symphony in A Minor].

Hah, who am I kidding?

The Scherzo from Schumann's 2nd.


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## mtmailey

I have no one favorite games i like those of DVORAK,TCHAIKOVSKY,SCHUBERT,SCHUMANN & BEETHOVEN


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

The best scherzo ever written can be found in *Sibelius's* first symphony.


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## KenOC

Here in the 21st century we seem to have forgotten the scherzo from Litolff's fourth Concerto Symphonique.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> Here in the 21st century we seem to have forgotten the scherzo from Litolff's fourth Concerto Symphonique.


And I came here expecting to see a post from you about some little known scherzo by segerstam


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## KenOC

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> And I came here expecting to see a post from you about some little known scherzo by segerstam



Segerstam wrote no "little-known scherzos." He left that to the lesser composer, Sibelius.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> Segerstam wrote no "little-known scherzos." He left that to the lesser composer, Sibelius.


Scherzi signify greatness, to pull even a single effective orchestral scherzo off makes one an incredible symphonist just like the king of all symphonists, *Sibelius*, and very much unlike segerstam.


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## KenOC

Ah well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I will agree to be right, and you will agree to be wrong. Fair enough?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> Ah well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I will agree to be right, and you will agree to be wrong. Fair enough?


Not fair.


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## Skilmarilion

For me, the _Scherzo: Pizzicato ostinato_ from Tchaikovsky's 4th is an enduring favourite.

A few others:

Sibelius 1
Mahler 1
Tchaikovsky 1, 3, 5
Beethoven 5, 6, 9


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hmm, am I the only one who prefers the classical menuet to the scherzo?


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## LordBlackudder




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## moody

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> hmm, am I the only one who prefers the classical menuet to the scherzo?


Who cares--the question is on scherzi !


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## HaydnBearstheClock

moody said:


> Who cares--the question is on scherzi !


the joke's on you pal.


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## moody

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> the joke's on you pal.


You'll have to do better than that--not very original pal !


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## Celloman

Two off the top of my head:

Mendelssohn Symphony 3 - 2nd movement
Tchaikovsky Symphony 6 - 3rd movement


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## HaydnBearstheClock

moody said:


> You'll have to do better than that--not very original pal !


whatever, I'm not here to engage in annoying arguments. You should behave respectfully and not post things like 'who cares' if you want others to behave normally to you.


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## moody

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> whatever, I'm not here to engage in annoying arguments. You should behave respectfully and not post things like 'who cares' if you want others to behave normally to you.


Who are you for me to be respectful to under the circumstances.
You are apparently incapable of answering the OP ---so,who cares about your annoying interjection which was answered by nobody.Thus indicating that you are the only one here who prefers a menuet to a scherzo,which is a strange suggestion in the first place.
Respect is usually shown to those who earn it !


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## HaydnBearstheClock

moody said:


> Who are you for me to be respectful to under the circumstances.
> You are apparently incapable of answering the OP ---so,who cares about your annoying interjection which was answered by nobody.Thus indicating that you are the only one here who prefers a menuet to a scherzo,which is a strange suggestion in the first place.
> Respect is usually shown to those who earn it !


your posts are extremely annoying. I'm not going to continue this 'debate', my time is better spent elsewhere.


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## Avey

I think this thread is turning into one big _scherzo_.


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## Celloman

Scherzo schmerzo...


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## Vaneyes

Mahler 6, Bruckner 8, and others. :tiphat:


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## Clump

Rondo Burlesque


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## Novelette

Vaneyes said:


> Mahler 6, Bruckner 8, and others. :tiphat:


So while I have heard these scherzi, I don't know them well enough to evoke the sound in my head [at least, intentionally].

I just finished listening to these two on YouTube. Wowser! Thanks, Vaneyes!


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## DeepR

Dvorak 9 
Tchaikovsky 1 
Beethoven 9 
Bruckner 7
Mahler 2


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## Skilmarilion

DeepR said:


> Dvorak 9


Ahh yes, I forgot this one somehow. Every moment of the 'New World' is phenomenal.


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## Rehydration

Mahler 5, 6; Dvorak 9; Scherzo di Notte (it's orchestral, and it's a scherzo); Holst: Mercury (that counts, right? I mean, it's not explicitly titled a scherzo, but it sure qualifies for one)

That's it.


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## Celloman

I have to mention, the scherzo movement from Tchaikovsky's _Manfred Symphony_ is phenomenal. Not a melody to be had, it's all motion and color. Brill! (As the English say.)


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## Skilmarilion

After a recent re-listen I must add the scherzo (2nd mvmt.) from Mahler's 4th, with its genius tuning of the solo violin.


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## Avey

Fauré. _Faw-raaay_.


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## Forte

The scherzo from Beethoven's 9th is one of the most extensive scherzos in the standard repertoire. And it's incredibly catchy, too. So I'll have to go for it, despite all the Bruckner symphonies...


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## Vesteralen

I've seen a lot of my favorites here - Beethoven's 9th, Mendelssohn's "Scotch", Schumann's 2nd, Bruckner's 4th, etc. I'd like to add a personal favorite (apologize if I missed it above) - Vaughan Williams' 2nd ("London")


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## mtmailey

I forgot about ROBERT SCHUMANN symphonies 1-4 games they sound great the first symphony has my favorite game.


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## Tristan

Either Tchaikovsky's 4th or Glazunov's 5th (2nd movement). Dvorak's 5th (3rd movement) also deserves a mention.


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## spradlig

My favorite is from Beethoven's 9th, but from your question it looks like you're looking for others.

I like the scherzo from Schumann's 2d symphony, but it's not in triple meter so I don't know if technically it is a "scherzo".


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## moody

spradlig said:


> My favorite is from Beethoven's 9th, but from your question it looks like you're looking for others.
> 
> I like the scherzo from Schumann's 2d symphony, but it's not in triple meter so I don't know if technically it is a "scherzo".


Who are we to argue with Schumann--if he said it was a scherzo then it's a scherzo !!


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## Beethoven10

Bruckner 6.. Mahler 6.. Beethoven 6.. Vaughan Williams 6..
also Mahler 9, 2, 1, 7, 4, 5 (basically all Mahler scherzi!)


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## Cheyenne

Beethoven 8, Bruckner 4 & 8,


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## KenOC

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but have a lsten to Henry Litolff's Scherzo from his Concerto Symphonique No. 4 in D minor. This is the only piece for which he is remembered! And maybe not too well at that. But it's pretty good.


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