# Brahms vs(?) Dvorak



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I have the impression that Dvorak has been sneaking up on Brahms over the past few decades, both in popularity and esteem. Listening to his Op. 44 Wind Serenade tonight…what a work of genius, almost Mozart-class!

He matches Brahms in top-flight symphonies, floors him in tone poems, and probably matches him in chamber music. Maybe a bit short in concertos, but hey – where’s that cello concerto of Brahms?

What do you think? How do you compare these two illustrious friends?


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I think Dvorak wrote some fantastic music but there's so many works by Brahms that I simply love; the Piano Concerto no. 2, Violin Concerto, all 4 symphonies, German Requiem, Clarinet Quintet... I could go on.

I'd agree that Dvorak's seems to be getting more appreciation. My local radio station does a top 100 every year in the SF Bay Area, his new world symphony came in second with Beethoven's 9th claiming the top spot (if I remember right). That's pretty incredible.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Symphonies: Brahms by a small margin
Concertos: Brahms clearly
Symphonic poems etc: Dvorak clearly
Piano works: Brahms clearly
String quartets: Dvorak clearly
Other chamber music: Brahms clearly
Songs: Tie
Choral works: Brahms clearly
Operas: no contest, Dvorak

I love Dvorak, he is a clear top10 composer for me. But Brahms ranks higher (#3). Looking at individual works, Brahms composed at least four (Clarinet quintet, German requiem, Violin concerto, Symphony 4) that I'd rate higher than the best of Dvorak (Symphony 9 and SQ 12).


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Dvorak for me is also a top ten composer who wrote some terrifyingly good music. I particularly enjoy his symphonies mainly no 1 and no. 7 although no. 9 is something special.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I just generally prefer Dvorak to Brahms. No contest in the symphonies, and Brahms has no chamber music that for me comes within shouting distance of the "American" quartet.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Although love Dvorak, have an obsession with Brahms. Love his works and fascinated by his life!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Although I'm not so familiar with Dvorak's chamber music, I have to go with Brahms by a substantial margin. It could be that I wore out Dvorak's 9th symphony back when it was called the 5th in the 1960s when I had no money for new music. A lot of Dvorak has a sameness for me, blurring together similar to Vivaldi. That's certainly not a deal breaker, but Brahms' themes! They're so memorable. It's all very subjective though.

I don't know if Dvorak is gaining in popularity, but that has never been a criteria for judgement to me. Sometimes I have to work at avoiding a bit of snobbishness if something becomes too popular.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Really not much in it, but for me Dvorak by a narrow margin, and a winner in quite a few surprising areas. Taking up Art Rock's genre-by genre comparison:

Symphonies: Dead heat: can one really compare Brahms' four with Dvorak's last four and see any difference in quality?
Concertos: Brahms, but only just. The Cello Concerto is the finest in the repertoire, I reckon.
Symphonic poems etc: Dvorak clearly. Yup!
Piano works: Brahms clearly. OK, but Dvorak wrote a hefty number of smaller salon pieces, which are beautifully crafted
String quartets: Dvorak clearly. Yup!
Other chamber music: Brahms. OK, but there are some very very fine Dvorak works - Piano trios, quintets, that stand comparison
Songs: Dvorak by a very slim margin. Most of Brahms' are fine works, although beyond the Serious Songs and Die Schoene Magelone, they are as important as Beethoven's are to his output. Dvorak is unfortunately overlooked in this area, the Biblical Songs, Evening Songs, the Gypsy Songs, are wonderful, and more than stand comparison for me. I suppose the Czech language bit doesn't help, but translations are available!
Choral works: Dvorak. Hang on! Beyond the German Requiem, I can't think of anything of major importance by Brahms here! Those secular cantatas are very fine, so are the Motets etc, but stack this up against Dvorak's Requiem, Te Deum, Sv. Ludmilla, Stabat Mater, Svatebni Kosile. Mmmmm!
Operas: no contest, Dvorak. I'll grant you that Brahms' operas are a bit thin on musical substance! They do Compare favourably to Chopin's symphonies though.....


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

By and large fairly even in places allowing their respective strengths and differences, but during the early part of their careers Brahms was by far the more assured composer which gives to his output a real stamp of consistency running all the way through - with the exception of a couple of early-ish works Dvořák as a composer didn't really get going for me until about the time of the fourth symphony.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I’ve bashed Brahms enough times, but here I’ll pay respect to him, he was great with shorter subjects which work better with smaller forces, so I think he is better suited for chamber music. I don’t like the way he links his themes like Dvorak, who sounds way more natural to me. Dvorak for me overall.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Don't forget that Brahms destroyed everything he wrote that didn't meet his own personal standards. Its the reason we have only 122 Opus numbers for him and why we have few extant weak Brahms works. Had Dvorak done the same or had Brahms NOT destroyed his own work we might not even be having this conversation.

PERSONALLY, I've done many score studies on both composers' works and I conclude that while Brahms' composing techniques and formal structures are practically flawless, I find Dvorak much more accessible. As a result, I listen to Dvorak way more than I do Brahms.

My Top Dvorak would include:

Symphonies 6-9
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto (its very good and often overshadowed by the Cello Concerto)
String Quartets 10, 12, 13, 14
Slavonic Dances (all 16)
Dumky Trio
Piano Quintet Op 81
Serenade for Winds Op 44
Moravian Duets
Requiem
Carnival Overture
String Quintet Op 97
The late tone poems
The Devil and Kate
Rusalka


For Brahms my favorite listening:
4 Symphonies
Violin Concerto
Clarinet Quintet
Piano Quartet Op 25
Serenade Op 11
Horn Trio Op 40
German Requiem
Piano Concerto 2


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I have the impression that Dvorak has been sneaking up on Brahms over the past few decades, both in popularity and esteem.


Back when I was in college in the '70s, Dvorak wasn't paid much attention to (outside of the New World Symphony and the American Quartet), whereas Brahms was in the meat-and-potatoes ranking. When I came to Nashville in the '90s, I was surprised at the attention Dvorak was getting from the Nashville Symphony. I remember my massage therapist gushing over their Dvorak performances, and I remember thinking, "Dvorak, seriously?"

So I agree with you; he seems to be given more regard now than he was back in the day, at least in my experience.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I had to work harder to get into Brahms' music but boy, has it paid off. While I like a good deal of Dvorak's output, and love some of it, there's way more by Brahms that I'd go a long way to hear. To my ears Dvorak is a very fine composer but Brahms is one of *the* greats.

So Brahms for me.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I'll second Art Rock's analysis, altering only his opinion on the symphonies--I'd vote Brahms by a big, not small, margin.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Dvorak wrote some great works and he is one of my top 10 composers along with Brahms
However head to head it is a clear win for Brahms. Dvorak just cant match him with the Symphonies and Conertos


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Just ask Dvorak this question, and he would have answered Brahms.

*Symphony:* Brahms > Dvorak. I love Dvorak's, but the only thing in his symphony cycle that can be pitted against Brahms' is his No.7, clearly under the influence of Brahms.
*Concerto:* Brahms >> Dvorak.
*Chamber Music: *Brahms >>> Dvorak
*Piano Music:* Brahms >>> Dvorak
*Art song:* Brahms > Dvorak
*Orchestral Music:* Brahms = Dvorak. While Dvorak edges out with quantity, I think Brahms wins with quality (Variations on a Theme by Haydn, Tragic Overture, Academic Overture)
*Choral Music:* Brahms > Dvorak. I know Dvorak had the gigantic Requiem and Stabat Mater, but Brahms' Requiem, Gesang der Parzen, Schicksalslied, and various motets for chorus, while smaller in scale, are at least one league above.
*Opera:* no question, I am actually glad that Brahms didn't compose one.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Solo Piano - Brahms +2
Chamber - Even
Concertos - Brahms +1
Orchestral - Dvorak +1
Symphonies - Brahms +1
Lieder - Brahms +1
Choral - Brahms +1
Opera - Dvorak +1

Brahms 6 - Dvorak 2

I guess that means that I go with Brahms. However, I do listen to Dvorak more often; Brahms gives me a heavy feeling.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Chamber - Brahms +1 (+1)
Concertos - Dvorak +5 (+6)
Orchestral - Dvorak +3 (+2)
Symphonies - Dvorak +3 (+4)
Choral - Tie

Brahms (Out) - Dvorak (+11)


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Dvorak (+4) suggests he has the correct attire for a game of golf!

Sorry.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

At this time, I do not see Dvorak effectively challenging the solid, widespread appreciation Brahms appears to have among lovers of classical music, though I do believe Dvorak's popularity has been notably growing. For a long time, I have personally experienced a great sense of satisfaction listening to both composers, however for nearly 60 years my love for Brahms' music has never diminished. He has remained my absolute favorite over that entire span. Looking at the two musical artists side by side, it is certainly no coincidence my all around favorite symphonies are the Brahms Third and Dvorak Eighth, while my favorite concertos are Brahms' Violin and Double and Dvorak's Cello. When it comes to the chamber genre, though I feel a richer sense of satisfaction with Brahms' works, I commonly derive a sense of spontaneous joyfulness from those of Dvorak. Both composers also often express a heart rending nostalgia and strong feelings for nature. A storehouse of beauty and grandeur.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Just for chuckles, I checked how many times works of the two composers were programmed by major US orchestras in the 2015-2016 season. Dvorak, 95 times; Brahms, 179 times.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Not close at all for me. If Brahms had only written either Symphony 3 or 4 I'd still prefer that one work over all of Dvorak's orchestral output. Of the chamber I only really know a few of Dvorak's string quartets but I have a hard time believing I'd think he could give Brahms a run.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Olias said:


> My Top Dvorak would include:
> 
> Symphonies 6-9
> Cello Concerto
> Violin Concerto (its very good and often overshadowed by the Cello Concerto)


What soloist would you recommend for the violin concerto?

I've listen to a couple and the work didn't impress me.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

For me, the most notorious difference between these two geniuses is that Dvorák is more melodious than Brahms. There are more memorable tunes in the Dvorák's music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Right now the radio is playing Dvorak’s 7th, Jiri Behlohlavek with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra. A certain masterpiece! And…memorable tunes.

Poor Brahms never even made it to No. 7. Something of a slacker, it seems.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Poor Brahms never even made it to No. 7. Something of a slacker, it seems.


Quality over quantity.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Improbus said:


> Quality over quantity.


Good tunes over soggy ones.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Good tunes over soggy ones.


I take it then that you prefer Brahms?


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## KJ von NNJ (Oct 13, 2017)

I listen to more Dvorak than I do Brahms. I don't think of Dvorak as a better composer than Brahms. They were quite different from one another as men. Dvorak was a heart on sleeve composer, freely expressing tension and joy with equal measure. Brahms's music tends to be well thought-out. His aesthetic of form led him to be disciplined and purposeful with his intent to create carefully crafted music on a consistently high level. 
They liked each other personally and creatively. I think there is a common thread that binds their life and times and I take comfort in the idea that they brought the best out in each other. Dvorak did have a problem with Brahms's pessimistic views on God and religion, exasperatingly expressing to a friend that Brahms seemed to 'believe in nothing'. Of course Brahms's faith was more complex than the devout Dvorak's was. Brahms seemed to shake his fist at God more than Dvorak did. I feel that the underlying tension and mystery of Brahms's music is deepened by his struggle to find or come to terms with a creator. One of the many things that Brahms admired about his friend was the ability to constantly come up with catchy, spirited tunes that blossomed into substantial parts of a greater whole. I think Brahms admired Dvorak's extroverted, life-loving soulfulness. He may have even envied it. That said, I feel that Dvorak was more influenced by Brahms, musically speaking. As Dvorak matured his music deepened, becoming perhaps more "Brahmsian", especially in the 7th symphony. 
Either way, I'm awfully glad we have them both.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Most important, Brahms is easier to pronounce.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

To put it in an over simplified way, Brahms music is profound, Dvorak's music is pretty. 

Now I realize that is exaggerative and not giving Dvorak enough credit. He clearly was a composer of some skill, and as mentioned had a gift for melody, but I haven't been able to get into his music because of my perception that it just doesn't have that much depth or substance. I think it probably has more than I give it credit for. But the fact is I don't find his music very interesting for some reason so I don't spend much time listening to it.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

I voted for Brahms in the poll which has since been relegated to limbo. If it were a desert island thing, I couldn’t survive without his symphonies and his piano, violin concerti. 

DaveM was tongue-in-cheek with his comment about pronouncing Dvořák , but I wonder how much different their fame would be if Dvořák was German and spent almost all of his career in Vienna, ala Brahms. Dvořák occasionally blamed some criticism of his works on anti-Czech sentiment.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, I've always viewed Brahms as kind of Dvorak's mentor --someone the Czech learned from and poured his own Slavonic tunefulness into Brahms' stencils. Compare the D major symphonies, the two sets of dances for piano, etc.

I like Dvorak, but appreciate Brahms' rigor more. (And sometimes, when I'm in a bad mood, I've been heard to complain that Dvorak is just "too damn Slavonic."  ) And I've tended to view Dvorak''s rise over the last 25 years as replacing Tchaikovsky as the composer a lot of people like because of his tunefulness, but musical snobs tend to deride, for what that's worth.

That said, I prefer Dvorak's Wind Serenade to Brahms' (Serenade No. 2), but Tchaikovsky's String Serenade to Dvorak's. I don't know what that means.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I prefer Dvorak's Wind Serenade to Brahms' (Serenade No. 2), but Tchaikovsky's String Serenade to Dvorak's. I don't know what that means.


It means you're being truthful....I assume.


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## nikon (Nov 16, 2017)

It's always the same, it's always someone influenced by someone else even in classics.
Standard plagiarism I would say.. 

If you listening Mozart, and then went back to Haydn you can clearly see that Mozart was mostly influenced by Haydn.

Then listen to violin concerto by Mendelssohn and you can clearly see that main title of Godfather I (Nino Rota) is taken and influenced by gorgeous melody line from this violin concerto 

Ahh yes, listen for Bach - Komm suesser Tod BWV 478 (Stokowski re-orchestration) and then you can clearly see that Barber's adagio is exactly that 

Even further, Bach The Well - Tempered Clavier (first prelude in C maj BWV 846), if you listen you can clearly notice influence for Beethoven - Moonlight sonata or even Ave Maria.

That time was miracle, you can just hear stuff on concerts or even to stole score sheets and then when you went back to your hometown on horseback (10 days) you just need to recompose it by influence. Who will know actually?

Now days we have internet


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## KJ von NNJ (Oct 13, 2017)

There is a sort of 'fate' motif in The Water Goblin by Dvorak that sounds similar to a section of music in The Godfather.
I would think that Nino Rota would have been familiar with Dvorak's music. Anyone wanting to hear it would only need to have seen the movie and heard Dvorak's symphonic poem. Daaa dada dee, dada, dada dum. 
The tune in the movie (very much in a tragic minor) is frequently used. Especially after a murder or two, or three. It's also presented in similar variations. It's all over the film soundtrack.
The subject matter in Dvorak's symphonic poems are like dark Grimm fairy tales. Pretty morbid and apt for a flick like The Godfather.


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