# Terrible tragedy in Israel



## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Terrible tragedy in Israel as Palestinian Arab terrorists went inside a Jewish home and slit the throats of a young couple and their three young children, including a 4 month old baby girl.

No matter what is anyone's stance on the middle east, its time for people to show their humanity and stand against the deliberate murder of an entire family who has done absolutely nothing bad to anyone.

No matter what political or ideological grievances one has, there is no justification to slit the throat of a little baby , her parents and her siblings.


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## Edward Elgar

What kind of god would allow this?


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Edward Elgar said:


> What kind of god would allow this?


God doesn't control people's actions, they all have freedom of choice, tragically, some people choose to do evil, but rest assured that evil will be punished.


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## Edward Elgar

If people didn't believe in a god then **** like this wouldn't happen.


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## StlukesguildOhio

People will always find a reason to do evil... a reason to envy and hate others, If it's not god, then its racism, nationalism, political disagreements, etc... And a certain number won't need any reasons at all.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Edward Elgar said:


> If people didn't believe in a god then **** like this wouldn't happen.


Hey, there is no need to use a tragedy to attack religion, I don't want it to go that direction.I can give you more then a thousand reasons why your assertion is wrong, but I don't want to debate this with you, lets just stay on topic, please.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Edward Elgar said:


> What kind of god would allow this?


Allah.

But Jesus wouldn't. Jesus doesn't tell his followers to kill all infidels for His sake.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

StlukesguildOhio said:


> People will always find a reason to do evil... a reason to envy and hate others, If it's not god, then its racism, nationalism, etc...


That's absolutely correct.

And remember that all the Greek and Roman wars of occupation and also the Nazi wars and the Soviet wars had nothing to do with religion, it wasn't their motivating reason to commit acts of brutality. The truth is that evil people will use anything in their disposable to cause devastation and justify their crimes, and not only religion.


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## Sid James

This is simply one of the many tragedies to come out of this stricken region. The whole middle east is a mess. No one will ever fix it up. The British tried & they failed. Now the Americans are doing the same & failing miserably. It's time foreign powers stopped getting involved in the affairs of these basketcase countries & let them do their thing - whatever they want. It's better if they sort themselves out (or not). If they want to kill eachother, go ahead, if they want a peace process that's what is more desirable, but the rest of the world can't make this happen - they have to do the hard yards & make this happen.

BTW, I disagree with Edward Elgar that religion is the reason behind all this. I think that's wrong. Religion is just being used an excuse, it's political power that is the big culprit. Do you really think, for example, that the now less apparent "troubles" between Northern and Southern Ireland were based on religion? I think not, it was more of a matter of politics and political power. Of course, it's the innocent people who become the victims of the abuse of this power...


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## starthrower

Everybody's an armchair philosopher. These types of threads shouldn't be started on music forums for this reason. Simple condolences is where it should start and end. There is nothing more to say.


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## Almaviva

starthrower said:


> Everybody's an armchair philosopher. These types of threads shouldn't be started on music forums for this reason. Simple condolences is where it should start and end. There is nothing more to say.


Exactly. This kind of topic easily leads to inflammatory statements, and suddenly people start to bypass forum rules. So, I encourage everybody to calm down.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Andre said:


> This is simply one of the many tragedies to come out of this stricken region. The whole middle east is a mess. No one will ever fix it up. The British tried & they failed. Now the Americans are doing the same & failing miserably. It's time foreign powers stopped getting involved in the affairs of these basketcase countries & let them do their thing - whatever they want. It's better if they sort themselves out (or not). If they want to kill eachother, go ahead, if they want a peace process that's what is more desirable, but the rest of the world can't make this happen - they have to do the hard yards & make this happen.
> 
> BTW, I disagree with Edward Elgar that religion is the reason behind all this. I think that's wrong. Religion is just being used an excuse, it's political power that is the big culprit. Do you really think, for example, that the now less apparent "troubles" between Northern and Southern Ireland were based on religion? I think not, it was more of a matter of politics and political power. Of course, it's the innocent people who become the victims of the abuse of this power...


Hi, thank you for your comments.

The only thing I think that I should add is that we need hope. To say that 'No one will ever fix it up' creates a feeling of hopelessness. In this time all around the world and not only in the middle east we need Hope, a hope for a better tomorrow and we Must believe that there is someone who is capable of fixing all of this huge mess that we all have today.

A detailed study and analysis of the Book of Daniel, will shed much needed hope because what Daniel the Great Jewish Sage that lived some 2700 years ago in Babylon in the Time of King Nebuchadnezzar says and writes, gives us all a sense of hope that there is someone that actually pulls the strings of time and will eventually redeem this world from its terrible perils.

Remember that the visions that Daniel saw from the Angel Gabriel are astonishing revelations that foretell of all the empires that will rule over the world until the end of times. If you open up the book of Daniel you'll see that The Angel Gabriel tells Daniel the empire that goes up and dominates the world for a specific time and then how that empire gets destroyed and a different empire takes its place, and so on until the end of times.

An important point to remember that Daniel existed in the time of the exile of Babylon, when the Jews were exiled by the Babylonian dictator and their temple destroyed. The Angel Gabriel tells Daniel, that Babylon will be destroyed and Persia and Madi will take over, and that's what precisely took place, a true prophecy taking realization. The Angel Gabriel continues and tells Daniel that Persia and Madi will rule for a while but then the Empire of Greece will defeat them and Greece will be the dominating power.

That prophecy also took place when Alexander the Great conquered Persia. The Angel continues to tell Daniel that Alexander will fall and Greece will be divided into 4 kingdoms. That also took place with striking accuracy as the Angel spoke the word of God.

The angel continues and tells Daniel that after the Kingdom of Greece will be divided between the 4 Generals of Greece, Rome will take over. And then there is a detailed prophecy of what will happen with Rome, the things can be found by learning further in the book of Daniel.

But the main point is, how in the world the Angel looked into the future and told Daniel what will take place in the future?

How did he know all this information?

There is no question that a divine power had sent his messenger the angel to tell the Great Sage and righteous servant of God, Daniel what will take place in the future, and how to prepare for the End of Days.

Daniel Chapter 8

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Daniel8.html

Chapter 10

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Daniel10.html


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## StlukesguildOhio

This is simply one of the many tragedies to come out of this stricken region. The whole middle east is a mess. No one will ever fix it up. The British tried & they failed. Now the Americans are doing the same & failing miserably. It's time foreign powers stopped getting involved in the affairs of these basketcase countries & let them do their thing - whatever they want. It's better if they sort themselves out (or not). 

Of course you know as well as I that there is one reason that the British and the French and now the Americans were/are involved in the Middle-East... and it has nothing to do with any attempt to bring peace to the region. It is all about oil and the need to maintain some semblance of stability to assure the flow of oil to the Western industrialized nations. If the middle east didn't have all that oil they'd still be beating each other into the stone age... but they'd be doing it with slings and sticks.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

StlukesguildOhio said:


> This is simply one of the many tragedies to come out of this stricken region. The whole middle east is a mess. No one will ever fix it up. The British tried & they failed. Now the Americans are doing the same & failing miserably. It's time foreign powers stopped getting involved in the affairs of these basketcase countries & let them do their thing - whatever they want. It's better if they sort themselves out (or not).
> 
> Of course you know as well as I that there is one reason that the British and the French and now the Americans were/are involved in the Middle-East... and it has nothing to do with any attempt to bring peace to the region. It is all about oil and the need to maintain some semblance of stability to assure the flow of oil to the Western industrialized nations. If the middle east didn't have all that oil they'd still be beating each other into the stone age... but they'd be doing it with slings and sticks.


Israel is not busy with oil, it has very little oil.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Israel is not busy with oil, it has very little oil.

But Israel is the most stable nation in the Middle-East and our relations with them assure of of a secure foothold from which we can seek to control the oil flow.


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## Polednice

If this oughtn't be a thread hi-jacked for the criticism of religion, then might I suggest that people refrain from tasteless proselytising as well?


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## Sid James

I shouldn't have taken notice of this thread, I agree with Almaviva, this kind of emotive politico-religious issue can be very divisive. Right, I'll get back to discussing the music...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> Terrible tragedy in Israel as Palestinian Arab terrorists went inside a Jewish home and slit the throats of a young couple and their three young children, including a 4 month old baby girl.


Bunch of feral savages, that's what they are.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Israel is not busy with oil, it has very little oil.
> 
> But Israel is the most stable nation in the Middle-East and our relations with them assure of of a secure foothold from which we can seek to control the oil flow.


The world is thinking about alternatives to oil, it is not the main point of involvement in the middle east.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Bunch of feral savages, that's what they are.


Agree.

They cant be counted among the humans.


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## hawk

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Allah.
> 
> *But Jesus wouldn't. Jesus doesn't tell his followers to kill all infidels for His sake*.


I agree that what was done to the family is horrendous!!!

While the highlighted statement is probably true(?) countless indigenous people on this continent were in fact slaughtered by people who interpreted maybe mis- interpreted the guidence offered by Him. The killing of peoples all over the world in the name of Christianity is as deplorable as using any religion to justify the killing of one or millions.


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## Rasa




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## emiellucifuge

That is indeed terrible, but we must remember the systematic discrimination, human rights abuse and theft of land from the Palestinian people.


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## Pieck

emiellucifuge said:


> That is indeed terrible, but we must remember the systematic discrimination, human rights abuse and theft of land from the Palestinian people.


Hey I'm agreeing with you except for the theft part, that we dont do. And just for you to know that not everybody want this conquering to go on, and I'm definitely not going to vote for the spineless current prime minister (not that I have)


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## Delicious Manager

StlukesguildOhio said:


> People will always find a reason to do evil... a reason to envy and hate others, If it's not god, then its racism, nationalism, political disagreements, etc... And a certain number won't need any reasons at all.


"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steven Weinberg

Never a truer word was spoken!


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## emiellucifuge

Pieck said:


> Hey I'm agreeing with you except for the theft part, that we dont do. And just for you to know that not everybody want this conquering to go on, and I'm definitely not going to vote for the spineless current prime minister (not that I have)


You dont think Israel builds illegally on palestinian territory?


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## Delicious Manager

emiellucifuge said:


> You dont think Israel builds illegally on palestinian territory?


This a 'chicken and egg' thing. Who has most claim to the territory, Palestine or Israel? How far back do you go?


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## Pieck

emiellucifuge said:


> You dont think Israel builds illegally on palestinian territory?


I didnt understand that you meant that. And if the building is legal or not wont change my mind, I'm against it.


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## tdc

Delicious Manager said:


> "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
> 
> Steven Weinberg
> 
> Never a truer word was spoken!


I think sometimes it can work that way, but in many other cases the reverse is also true ie- evil people doing better things because of religion. In my opinion religion itself isn't a bad thing, people twisting it for their own selfish purposes is what is problematic, or hiding behind it. With or without religion these people make their own free will choices to do similar things, religion at least offers a sort of value system or moral guide.

Statistically speaking in the western world people with religious values cause far less crime, or damage to society than those with non-religious values. Parents with religious values are far more likely statistically to stay together than non-religious parents. This in itself is a hugely positive factor for those kids statistically effecting how they will later function in society.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

emiellucifuge said:


> That is indeed terrible, but we must remember the systematic discrimination, human rights abuse and theft of land from the Palestinian people.


Hello,

For the sake of been brief, I believe Dennis Prager says it best and to the point.

A very important Video.


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## Polednice

tdc said:


> I think sometimes it can work that way, but in many other cases the reverse is also true ie- evil people doing better things because of religion. In my opinion religion itself isn't a bad thing, people twisting it for their own selfish purposes is what is problematic, or hiding behind it. With or without religion these people make their own free will choices to do similar things, religion at least offers a sort of value system or moral guide.
> 
> Statistically speaking in the western world people with religious values cause far less crime, or damage to society than those with non-religious values. Parents with religious values are far more likely statistically to stay together than non-religious parents. This in itself is a hugely positive factor for those kids statistically effecting how they will later function in society.


1) However it's worded, labelling people as 'evil' is never going to be an adequate way to describe someone, because it's not a genetic trait.

2) I would love to see some references for your second paragraph, because I'm inclined to believe that you've made all that up.


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## emiellucifuge

That is incredibly biased.


Im sure youve heard about the wikileaks documents concerning the peace negotiations. If so then you wll be aware of the incredible concessions that the palestinian negotiators were prepared to make in return for peace. Thus the entire notion that 'there is no peace partner' as the Israelis would have you believe is entirely false.


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## emiellucifuge

Religous people dont divorce becuase it is a sin. This social taboo probably forces many people to live unhappy lives.


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## Pieck

emiellucifuge said:


> That is incredibly biased.
> 
> Im sure youve heard about the wikileaks documents concerning the peace negotiations. If so then you wll be aware of the incredible concessions that the palestinian negotiators were prepared to make in return for peace. Thus the entire notion that 'there is no peace partner' as the Israelis would have you believe is entirely false.


I think that you too fell victim to international media but we are willing to do practicly almost anything to make peace if we know that there will be peace. Have you heard about Gilad Shalit? The captured soldier that Hamas holding without even seeing the Red Cross. Do you know how many terrorists Hamas wants Israel to free in exchange of him? over 1000 mudurers of innocent people. Show me another country who would even consider this exchange?


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

emiellucifuge said:


> That is incredibly biased.
> 
> Im sure youve heard about the wikileaks documents concerning the peace negotiations. If so then you wll be aware of the incredible concessions that the palestinian negotiators were prepared to make in return for peace. Thus the entire notion that 'there is no peace partner' as the Israelis would have you believe is entirely false.


Dennis Prager is a scholar and he actually studied the history, so his input is highly accurate.

Dennis Prager makes a strong point by stating a historic fact, that never in the history of the world there was ever a 'Palestinian State' that wasn't Jewish in that part of the world.
The entire land of Israel , all its towns and all its streets, avenues and hills, mountains, and valleys, meadows and lakes and rivers all bare their historic Hebrew names, Like Jerusalem, the Center of Israel, where the Temple Stood, and where the Kings of Israel, Saul, David and Solomon Ruled.

The Hills of Judea where the Prophets of Israel walked and conversed with God, and which Islam and Christianity besides Judaism base their religions upon. The Ancient City of Hebron where Adam, Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah are buried. The Mount of Carmel where Elijah had spoken the word of God.

Ashdod, Gath, Ashkelon, Gilo, Beer Sheva, Miron and Rehoboth, Kiriat Arba and Tzipori, Teveriah and Safed, Yaffo and all the other great ancient cities of Israel are all mentioned in the Torah and in the Talmud thousands of years before Islam was ever created.

There is no country in the world that has such strong historical, legal ,biblical , religious and emotional connection to its people.

So how can one claim that the 'Palestinian People' who only began calling themselves 'Palestinians' after the establishment of the State of Israel, because before they were known as Arabs living in Jordan, that they are giving up 'incredible concessions' on something that they never owned?

Usually making 'concessions' is when one has legitimate claims to ownership of something.

The Arabs who call themselves 'Palestinians' have no legal, historical, or any other basis to claim the land of Israel, because the land was always Jewish since time immemorial.

Even the Koran says clearly in Sura 5:20 through 5:21 the following :

*[5:20] Recall that Moses said to his people (the Jews), "O my people, remember GOD's blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people.

[5:21] "O my people, enter the holy land (Israel) that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."*

So what in the world there is to argue about?

The holiest Book of Islam, the book that 1.2 billion Muslims all around the world consider to be holy and divine clearly says without any misunderstandings, that God had given Israel to the Jewish people. End of story and argument.

Remember, that the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians place their greatest bargaining chip on the religious issue of the conflict. Their religious leaders tell them that this is a 'Jihad' a religious war against the Jews. That this land that is called Israel is 'Holy Muslim Land' that every believing Muslim man woman and child should give their life to get it 'back'(as if it was ever theirs to begin with) …

So I say that the Israeli politicians are fools for not grabbing Prime Time News and read out these verses to the world and tell everyone that the religious war that the Muslims are waging on the Jews is nothing but *a politically driven diversion from the true Message of Islam on this Issue. The Koran is extremely clear that God had given this land Israel to the Jewish people, so its time that the religious leaders of Islam actually follow their Holiest Book and accept Mohamed's writings about God giving this land to the Jews*.

If the Muslims will follow what they learn and what they preach and what they consider holy, then there would be true peace, If those 'religious leaders' of Islam that are brainwashing their people into this illusionary mythical conflict that the Koran is totally against will stop with their hate and incitement against the Jewish people, then there will be peace.

"


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## Polednice

I didn't realise religious texts were authorities on modern political disputes, as well as having already answered all questions science can ask. Wow, those books are amazing!


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Polednice said:


> I didn't realise religious texts were authorities on modern political disputes, as well as having already answered all questions science can answer. Wow, those books are amazing!


Well the Arabs don't view this conflict as modern or political, they view it as a religious war, what they describe as 'Jihad'.

So let them follow the true message of Islam that clearly states in the Koran that God had given the Land of Israel to the Jewish people.

If they will respect and follow their own religious texts, then there would be peace. But it looks like that they are willing to ignore their most sacred of texts, and are willing to twist them just to justify anti Semitism.

Anti Semitism is truly a sick wicked disease where one even lets himself give the finger to his God and cross out his words, just to justify his irrational hatred of the Jewish people.

I'm telling you, that the Arabs have more land then anyone can have, and if they would learn to live in peace with Israel, then Israel in turn can pull them out from the stone age status that they are presently are in, and lift them up to modern reality.

Thankfully, only in Israel, Arabs have actual rights.

You know why?

Because Israel is a democracy , and Arabs have elected members in the Israeli Knesset, and have many other rights and privileges that other Arabs in the ME can only dream about.


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## StlukesguildOhio

The world is thinking about alternatives to oil, it is not the main point of involvement in the middle east.

If you seriously believe that you are sadly deluded. It is virtually the only reason we are in the Middle east. I don't think the US cares all that much about controlling useless desert land or getting embroiled in religious disputes. It is all about the oil.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The world is thinking about alternatives to oil, it is not the main point of involvement in the middle east.
> 
> If you seriously believe that you are sadly deluded. It is virtually the only reason we are in the Middle east. I don't think the US cares all that much about controlling useless desert land or getting embroiled in religious disputes. It is all about the oil.


The United States' most vital interest in that place is stability. Democracies like stabilities, for the foundation of capitalism is peace, without peace and stability people cant do business, and capitalism cant function.

Another vital interest is to support democracies all over the world, not only Israel. America is stronger when other democracies are strong as well, for it has an honest and reliable friend in a time of need.

America invests in their friends, and that's a good move, for after all by supporting fellow democracies its really supporting itself.


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## StlukesguildOhio

The United States' most vital interest in that place is stability. Democracies like stabilities, for the foundation of capitalism is peace, without peace and stability people cant do business, and capitalism cant function.

And what exactly is our business with the Middle-East? What commodity are we involved in trading? If it weren't for the oil we would have about as much concern about the stability of the Middle-East as we have for the stability of central Africa... in other words... we would care in the least whether they beat each other back into the stone age.


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## StlukesguildOhio

America invests in their friends, and that's a good move, for after all by supporting fellow democracies its really supporting itself.

Our largest trade partner is China... which last I heard, had a ways to go to qualify as a democracy. The US doesn't care the least about the politics of a nation... as long as there's money involved.


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## jurianbai

again the thread responded by antireligion member in first place. it is sad that a news like this didn't raise a comment of condolence in first place anymore.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The United States' most vital interest in that place is stability. Democracies like stabilities, for the foundation of capitalism is peace, without peace and stability people cant do business, and capitalism cant function.
> 
> And what exactly is our business with the Middle-East? What commodity are we involved in trading? If it weren't for the oil we would have about as much concern about the stability of the Middle-East as we have for the stability of central Africa... in other words... we would care in the least whether they beat each other back into the stone age.


Let me explain.

Israel is a technological Powerhouse. One of the most powerful and advanced countries in the world, and perhaps one of the Greatest military powers in the world.

America wants Israel to stay that way, and not be engulfed by the U.N and the Arab world who are using 'International Law' to destroy Israel.

The U.N just recently had Libya sit on its 'Human Rights Counsel', a travesty and perversion of justice, a country that violated every single human rights issue was given this 'Honor'. On top of this, the Muslim and Arab countries are waging a relentless war on Israel through the United Nations, for it knows how to manipulate international law, even though the Muslim world doesn't care tiny peas for this 'International Law'.

So the United States which sees itself as the leader of the free world, cant let dictators have the day by destroying a powerful democracy by using 'International Law'.

If America will let These dictators go ahead with their plans of destroying a democracy by manipulating international laws and democratic foundations and institutions, then where does it end?

Who will be next?

You know that Sweden is dieing?

When was the last time you checked what's going on in Sweden?

Please do your research and see for yourself under what circumstances the Christian and Jewish population of Malmo for example lives by in the hands of the newly arrived immigrants from Muslim lands.

How can the West, which include The U.S.A , Europe and Israel save itself from destruction from the Muslim world, who sends millions of people to immigrate into these countries, and who never wants to respect the authority of Christianity in the West and the Authority of Judaism in Israel?

Do you know that its forbidden for Jews and Christians to pray anywhere in Saudi Arabia?
Do you know that after the creation of Israel the Arab countries threw out over 900,000 Jews from their countries to Israel, after living there for thousands of years, and yet they expect Israel to absorb 'Palestinian Arabs' into Israel? Is this what you call fairness and justice?

Why this doesn't bother you?

Why our rights, the rights of the Jewish people, and the rights of Christians from Europe and the U.S don't bother you?

If you think that the Arabs are only targeting Israel for destruction, then you are making a huge mistake, for the Hezbollah and Hamas shout out loudly in the open in their mass gatherings :" Death to Israel" and "Death to America".

So its not really oil, but its about survival. The United States doesn't want a world where Islam will rule on all of civilization. That's why its supporting Israel, a Jewish Democracy and a great ally, because this little battle is nothing more then an encapsulated version of Islam's war on the West, and if they will succeed in destroying Israel, God knows how much that will embolden them to continue and devastate other parts of Western Civilization.


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## Almaviva

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The world is thinking about alternatives to oil, it is not the main point of involvement in the middle east.
> 
> *If you seriously believe that you are sadly deluded*. It is virtually the only reason we are in the Middle east. I don't think the US cares all that much about controlling useless desert land or getting embroiled in religious disputes. It is all about the oil.


Please, Stlukes, let's keep the discussion civil.


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## StlukesguildOhio

The Middle eastern Islamic nations are about as much a threat to the United States as Guatemala. North Korea and China are a far greater threat. Oil is the central issue. It is the reason the US continually attempts to play peacemaker... for the simple reason that they need the stability of Israel as an ally to maintain a presence in the Middle East and preserve the flow of oil, but they need the Islamic/Arabic nations for the actual oil. Oil is the reason the French, the British, and the Germans were in North Africa in World War II, and it remains of even greater importance today. Were the US to pull out of the Middle East, Russia or China would certainly need to take their place... and this is not something the US is likely to desire. The battle between the Israelis and Arabs is simply a side issue in the concerns of the superpowers who could easily vaporize any of these nations on a moment's notice.


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## Sid James

I said I'd not respond any more to this thread but I'd think I'd make a few comments (which will probably make no difference to Saul, who appears to be an ideologue of the worst kind).

1) As people have said above, this deadly "game" between elements of the Israeli & Palestinian power brokers is "tit for tat." There's no logic to what either side does. It's just one big payback after another.

2) I also agree with some of the comments above to the effect that the issue of whose land this was in the first place will never be solved. History in other places has moved on. Here in Australia, with white settlement (or "invasion" as some call it), the native Aboriginal population was decimated in one way or another. Now they are just 2 per cent of our population. But can we turn back the clock to 1788 before it all happened? I think not, and a form of reconciliation and understanding between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians is the only way forward. This does involve land rights issues, but these are settled in the courts, not by governments or people killing eachother. That is just not on. I think that Israel & Palestine have to sort something out. An idea would be to re-establish pre 1967 borders for a start. That would be a step in the right direction.

3) As long as ideologues on either side of the divide like Saul keep peddling their negative views on the matter, this problem will not be solved. There must be many moderates on both the Israeli & Palestinian sides. Political processes should be developed to give this silent majority a say in the matter, rather the rabid religious and political zealots who just advocate more terrorism - be it state sponsored or from smaller groups.

4) I agree with stlukesguildohio, oil is one of the main reasons for American involvement in the Middle East. There is also a powerful, moneyed and vocal Israel lobby in the USA, which has enormous influence on that country's policies to do with Israel and her neighbours. I have a strong feeling that Saul is one of these people. They just sit comfortably in far distant USA on the other side of the world while the killings by both sides go on, and they encourage the US government to continue to support Israel no matter what to continue to perpetuate the enormous inbalance of power that this causes.

That's all I want to say on the matter...


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## StlukesguildOhio

Please, Stlukes, let's keep the discussion civil.

I don't see my response as being uncivil. To deny that oil is not the central reason that the greater superpowers are in anyway interested in the Middle East and involved in their on-going disputes involves a great degree of denial. No nation is in the practice of employing their military at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars in order to spread peace and harmony among all mankind. The age of Aquarius, this is not.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> The world is thinking about alternatives to oil, *it is not the main point of involvement in the middle east*.


:lol: Amazing.


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## Almaviva

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Please, Stlukes, let's keep the discussion civil.
> 
> I don't see my response as being uncivil. To deny that oil is not the central reason that the greater superpowers are in anyway interested in the Middle East and involved in their on-going disputes involves a great degree of denial. No nation is in the practice of employing their military at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars in order to spread peace and harmony among all mankind. The age of Aquarius, this is not.


We can still debate the issue without discussing the opponent's style or defense mechanisms or perceived shortcomings. Saying that someone is deluded doesn't help the discussion. I encourage you and other members here to, instead, state their disagreement and their arguments without making comments about the person of the opponent.

I'm not just singling you out, StLukes - read this other statement above: "(which will probably make no difference to Saul, who appears to be an ideologue of the worst kind)."

We could do away with this kind of statement, and continue the discussion, like I said, with civility.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The Middle eastern Islamic nations are about as much a threat to the United States as Guatemala. North Korea and China are a far greater threat. Oil is the central issue. It is the reason the US continually attempts to play peacemaker... for the simple reason that they need the stability of Israel as an ally to maintain a presence in the Middle East and preserve the flow of oil, but they need the Islamic/Arabic nations for the actual oil. Oil is the reason the French, the British, and the Germans were in North Africa in World War II, and it remains of even greater importance today. Were the US to pull out of the Middle East, Russian or China would certainly need to take their place. The battle between the Israelis and Arabs is simply a side issue in the concerns of the superpowers who could easily vaporize any of these nations on a moment's notice.


Well Russia and China never did as much damage then what a few cave dwellers did.
Bin Laden and his wicked cronies have brought our country to its knees, and ruined the economy, because America and Israel are fighting these evil perpetrators of terror with one hand tied behind their backs, which is powerfully pulled by the manipulated liberal leaning 'International Laws' that never step to uphold the countless human rights violations that are taking place on a daily basis in the Muslim world.

So a good lesson for all of us to learn from history:

*Never underestimate your enemy.*

As to saying that the United States can 'vaporize any of these nations on a moment's notice'. It can surely do so to the Arab countries but it cant do so to Israel.

It can't vaporize Israel at a moments notice, because Israel is not 'The Arab World'.

Israel has enough weapons of to destroy this planet many times and evaporate everything in between. But intelligent countries who are allies don't attack each other, they work together to achieve their common interests. They don't flex muscles at each other, its pointless for them to do so.

So again, you're over emphasizing the Oil thing in this entire situation.

The true objective is survival, the West (lead by the U.S) wants to survive, that's why its supports Western Countries from Muslim terrorism and aggression.


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## mamascarlatti

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> Because Israel is a democracy , and Arabs have elected members in the Israeli Knesset, and have many other rights and privileges that other Arabs in the ME can only dream about.


Please note that in the Occupied West Bank, Arabs have no rights, certainly not the rights of Arabs in the State of Israel proper.

However Israeli settlers continue to build settlements illegally here, and this is what leads to terrible tragedies like the original subject of this thread. Acts like these are in no way excusable, but the story has two sides. The original post was glaringly context-free.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

mamascarlatti said:


> Please note that in the Occupied West Bank, Arabs have no rights, certainly not the rights of Arabs in the State of Israel proper.
> 
> However Israeli settlers continue to build settlements illegally here, and this is what leads to terrible tragedies like the original subject of this thread. Acts like these are in no way excusable, but the story has two sides. The original post was glaringly context-free.


I wonder what the Jews were occupying in 1929 before the Creation of the State of Israel when the Arabs this this to them:

The Hebron Massacre of 1929

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html


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## Sid James

> Never underestimate your enemy.


You said it all there. You simply hate Muslims. The "terrible tragedy" which you posted about to begin with was just an excuse to further your hateful & highly biased agenda. This I find disgusting in the extreme...


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Andre said:


> You said it all there. You simply hate Muslims. The "terrible tragedy" which you posted about to begin with was just an excuse to further your hateful & highly biased agenda. This I find disgusting in the extreme...


How do you want me to respond to this accusation?

I don't simply 'hate Muslims'.

Let me be make a clear statement.

I say that any Muslim that is against terrorism and against destroying Israel and the West, and is against violence, I say that God should bless him and may he merit a place in heaven among all the good people of the world.

I have nothing against peaceful good Muslims, but I do hate Muslim terrorists who are killing innocent people all around the world.

And I believe every decent and rational person feels the same.


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## mamascarlatti

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> I wonder what the Jews were occupying in 1929 before the Creation of the State of Israel when the Arabs this this to them:
> 
> The Hebron Massacre of 1929
> 
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html


The other side has their list of massacres too.

As I said, there are two sides to every story, something that your original post has conspicuously chosen to ignore. Like others on this forum I don't like this kind of proselytising; in fact I don't like anything that divides the world into "Us" and "Them", with the "Us" using the status of perpetual victims to evade reponsibility for their own less than ethical actionss.

I haven't been to Israel or Palestine since 1990 but when I was there most Palestinians I met just wanted to get on with their lives in peace. I would imagine that another 30 years of oppressive occupation has hardened their views a bit.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Andre said:


> I said I'd not respond any more to this thread but I'd think I'd make a few comments (which will probably make no difference to Saul, who appears to be an ideologue of the worst kind).
> 
> 1) As people have said above, this deadly "game" between elements of the Israeli & Palestinian power brokers is "tit for tat." There's no logic to what either side does. It's just one big payback after another.
> 
> 2) I also agree with some of the comments above to the effect that the issue of whose land this was in the first place will never be solved. History in other places has moved on. Here in Australia, with white settlement (or "invasion" as some call it), the native Aboriginal population was decimated in one way or another. Now they are just 2 per cent of our population. But can we turn back the clock to 1788 before it all happened? I think not, and a form of reconciliation and understanding between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians is the only way forward. This does involve land rights issues, but these are settled in the courts, not by governments or people killing eachother. That is just not on. I think that Israel & Palestine have to sort something out. An idea would be to re-establish pre 1967 borders for a start. That would be a step in the right direction.
> 
> 3) As long as ideologues on either side of the divide like Saul keep peddling their negative views on the matter, this problem will not be solved. There must be many moderates on both the Israeli & Palestinian sides. Political processes should be developed to give this silent majority a say in the matter, rather the rabid religious and political zealots who just advocate more terrorism - be it state sponsored or from smaller groups.
> 
> 4) I agree with stlukesguildohio, oil is one of the main reasons for American involvement in the Middle East. There is also a powerful, moneyed and vocal Israel lobby in the USA, which has enormous influence on that country's policies to do with Israel and her neighbours. I have a strong feeling that Saul is one of these people. They just sit comfortably in far distant USA on the other side of the world while the killings by both sides go on, and they encourage the US government to continue to support Israel no matter what to continue to perpetuate the enormous inbalance of power that this causes.
> 
> That's all I want to say on the matter...


If there is no ultimate truth to anything, then why should I care about been Jewish, or Israel, or anything else?

Why did Americans go to wars all throughout their history if there was no real truth to their struggle and they didn't really believe in the righteousness of their causes?

The only reason I ever went to Israel after my family lived over 2400 years in Europe because we all prayed for that long to have the opportunity to reconnect with our historical and ancestral biblical homeland.

If I didn't have this truth, I the person that I am today wouldn't exist, I would have been someone else all together.

Remember the old saying :

A people who don't remember their history will never have a future'.

This is not an ideology, it is life and reality and self awareness.


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## Sid James

> have nothing against peaceful good Muslims, but I do hate Muslim terrorists who are killing innocent people all around the world.


Let's talk about music then, which is being used to unite and not divide people like religion and politics. Have you heard of Daniel Barenboim's East-West Divan Orchestra, made up of both Israeli and Palestinian musicians? Maybe you should've made a thread about that, or something positive that has come out of the region, rather than peddling the usual negative stuff which people all around the world are just sick and tired of. As I said, it's highly likely that MOST Israelis and Palestinians or Arabs ARE "peaceful good" people, it's just a fraction of the politicians and religious powerbrokers that are driving certain negative agendas that just perpetuate more violence. You are not doing much to further a positive agenda here, you're just using manipulative tools to cause outrage and negativity. & judging from most other members comments, you're not really succeeding...


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

mamascarlatti said:


> The other side has their list of massacres too.
> 
> As I said, there are two sides to every story, something that your original post has conspicuously chosen to ignore. Like others on this forum I don't like this kind of proselytising; in fact I don't like anything that divides the world into "Us" and "Them", with the "Us" using the status of perpetual victims to evade reponsibility for their own less than ethical actionss.
> 
> I haven't been to Israel or Palestine since 1990 but when I was there most Palestinians I met just wanted to get on with their lives in peace. I would imagine that another 30 years of oppressive occupation has hardened their views a bit.


This website is a terrorist website that wants to see all Jews dead.

Its like you are bringing to my attention a webpage of Bin Laden that lists all the atrocities that the United States committed against Muslims , and therefore he is right in wanting to see all Americans dead.

You cant compare an independent Wikipedia historical non-terrorist non Jewish source such as wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre, with a terrorist inspired webpage that blames all the worlds problems on the Jewish people.

So there are no 'sides' here.

There is the victim, Israel , a western democracy surrounded by 300.000.000 Muslim Arabs with more land then the United States who want to destroy the only country in the world that Jews can truly can call home.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Andre said:


> Let's talk about music then, which is being used to unite and not divide people like religion and politics. Have you heard of Daniel Barenboim's East-West Divan Orchestra, made up of both Israeli and Palestinian musicians? Maybe you should've made a thread about that, or something positive that has come out of the region, rather than peddling the usual negative stuff which people all around the world are just sick and tired of. As I said, it's highly likely that MOST Israelis and Palestinians or Arabs ARE "peaceful good" people, it's just a fraction of the politicians and religious powerbrokers that are driving certain negative agendas that just perpetuate more violence. You are not doing much to further a positive agenda here, you're just using manipulative tools to cause outrage and negativity. & judging from most other members comments, you're not really succeeding...


Why am I been blamed for all of this?

Where do I do division?

Is telling the truth so divisive?

About this Barenboim Orchestra, its a total failure. Watch how the BBC grills him , and he has nothing to say to justify this failure.

It failed because Barenboim is a self hating Israeli, who blames all the problems in the ME on his people and says nothing about the Arabs, as if they are some angels that descended from heaven.

The root of the problem is Arab refusal to have a Jewish state of any size shape or form anywhere in the Middle East.

Barenboim's refusal to accept this fact, resulted in the total failure to actually solve anything in this conflict.
Barenboim is a total liar when it comes to Israel, and he brings a totally twisted description of what really happened and what this country is all about. I am ashamed of the fact that he is my countryman. I hope that one day he will change his distorted and anti Israeli views, and see the truth as it is.


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## Sid James

> There is the victim, Israel , a western democracy surrounded by 300.000.000 Muslim Arabs with more land then the United States who want to destroy the only country in the world that Jews can truly can call home.


Yes, Israel is a democracy, but a highly flawed one. Just look at how they invaded Lebanon about 30 years ago and (along with Syria) fuelled the civil war there. Liberal Israelis now admit that what happened then shouldn't have happened. Ariel Sharon was accused of committing war crimes on Lebanese soil. Then there's the stuff that happened in Gaza, which wasn't something Israel should write home about. Ditto the building of a "protective barrier" on the border with the occupied territories. & I could go on. It's certainly not a model democracy. Were it not for the support of the USA and it's powerful Israel lobby, it simply would not exist. & you know what? Maybe the world would be a more peaceful place if that was the case...


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## Sid James

> The root of the problem is Arab refusal to have a Jewish state of any size shape or form anywhere in the Middle ease.


It's not only an "Arab" opinion that it would be better if Israel would not exist. I have talked to many friends here in Australia and they have the same opinion. But this opinion is not expressed in the media, because then people would be accused of anti-Semitism. The fact is that Israel, unlike any of the Arab countries that you hate, is being propped up by their buddy the USA. If it weren't for them, Israel wouldn't exist. When you create an artificial situation like this, of course it's going to cause friction. But it's too late to wind back the clock now to 1947, unfortunately. Many times seeing the constant barrage of tragedy after tragedy that happens in the region, I wish we could go back, but we can't. That's life...


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## mamascarlatti

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> This website is a terrorist website that wants to see all Jews dead.
> You cant compare an independent Wikipedia historical non-terrorist non Jewish source such as wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre, with a terrorist inspired webpage that blames all the worlds problems on the Jewish people.).


Oh you want wiki:

King David Hotel bombing wiki
Deir Yassin massacre wiki

I quote from the latter:

_Jacques de Reynier, head of the International Red Cross delegation in Palestine, and his assistant Dr. Alfred Engel, visited Deir Yassin on April 11. In his personal memoirs, published in 1950, Reynier wrote: "a total of more than 200 dead, men, women, and children. ..... [One body was] a woman who must have been eight months pregnant, hit in the stomach, with powder burns on her dress indicating she'd been shot point-blank."[43] _

I won't go on, but maybe you get the drift (I doubt it though).



Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> There is the *victim*, Israel , a western democracy surrounded by 300.000.000 Muslim Arabs with more land then the United States who want to destroy the only country in the world that Jews can truly can call home.


See, that's my point. Israel claims it is the perpetual innocent victim, therefore Israel does not need to take reponsibilities for its own atrocities.

There are two sides to every story. I appreciate that Jews want somewhere to call their own, but let's not forget that this desire comes at a huge cost to other people, namely the Palestinians who also live there.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Andre said:


> Yes, Israel is a democracy, but a highly flawed one. Just look at how they invaded Lebanon about 30 years ago and (along with Syria) fuelled the civil war there. Liberal Israelis now admit that what happened then shouldn't have happened. Ariel Sharon was accused of committing war crimes on Lebanese soil. Then there's the stuff that happened in Gaza, which wasn't something Israel should write home about. Ditto the building of a "protective barrier" on the border with the occupied territories. & I could go on. It's certainly not a model democracy. Were it not for the support of the USA and it's powerful Israel lobby, it simply would not exist. & you know what? Maybe the world would be a more peaceful place if that was the case...


Maybe the world would be more peaceful without Europe and the U.S.A too.

Rivers of blood have swept across the European continent all throughout the ages, you know. Read up history, of what Greece and Rome did, and what Germany did in WW1 and in WW2.

Rivers of blood also swept all across the America when the Europeans came to this part of the world. Perhaps without America, the world would be more peaceful.

How about the Arab world?

Perhaps the world would be more peaceful with no Arab countries.

All these wars that they have generated all across history up until today, are just horrific, so perhaps if they didn't exist, the world would be more peaceful.

I'm just demonstrating to you your line of thinking.


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## Sid James

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> Maybe the world would be more peaceful without Europe and the U.S.A too.
> 
> Rivers of blood have swept across the European continent all throughout the ages, you know. Read up history, of what Greece and Rome did, and what Germany did in WW1 and in WW2.
> 
> Rivers of blood also swept all across the America when the Europeans came to this part of the world. Perhaps without America, the world would be more peaceful.
> 
> How about the Arab world?
> 
> Perhaps the world would be more peaceful with no Arab countries.
> 
> All these wars that they have generated all across history up until today, are just horrific, so perhaps if they didn't exist, the world would be more peaceful.
> 
> I'm just demonstrating to you your line of thinking.


All I'm saying is that countries "created" artificially - like Israel, Yugoslavia, the former East Germany - tend not to last because the basis upon which they were created were not fully thought through in terms of the larger political, religious, cultural, ethnic and social impacts this would have. This is probably thinking far ahead, but once the USA ceases to be a superpower, Israel will have no big brother supporting them, and I don't think it will last for this reason in the long term. But this is mere speculation, but this was more my line of thinking than the anti-Israel stance you were trying to make out of it...


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## tdc

Polednice said:


> 1) However it's worded, labelling people as 'evil' is never going to be an adequate way to describe someone, because it's not a genetic trait.
> 
> 2) I would love to see some references for your second paragraph, because I'm inclined to believe that you've made all that up.


Ok, you are actually right about the labelling of people as 'evil', however I only worded it that way because I was reversing the quote DM had posted which had suggested religion can make 'good' people do evil things. The word 'good' there being equally as useless in describing someone.

I learned those statistics in Sociology courses I took in college, you can find the information regarding to divorce rates in the book - _The Family _ 3rd Canadian Edition J. Ross Eshleman/Susannah J. Wilson p. 311

On Religion and delinquency rates - _Criminology A Canadian Perspective _Rick Linden
pgs. 385-386

Those pages cover the basic premise of what I was saying.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

mamascarlatti said:


> Oh you want wiki:
> 
> King David Hotel bombing wiki
> Deir Yassin massacre wiki
> 
> I quote from the latter:
> 
> _Jacques de Reynier, head of the International Red Cross delegation in Palestine, and his assistant Dr. Alfred Engel, visited Deir Yassin on April 11. In his personal memoirs, published in 1950, Reynier wrote: "a total of more than 200 dead, men, women, and children. ..... [One body was] a woman who must have been eight months pregnant, hit in the stomach, with powder burns on her dress indicating she'd been shot point-blank."[43] _
> 
> I won't go on, but maybe you get the drift (I doubt it though).
> 
> See, that's my point. Israel claims it is the perpetual innocent victim, therefore Israel does not need to take reponsibilities for its own atrocities.
> 
> There are two sides to every story. I appreciate that Jews want somewhere to call their own, but let's not forget that this desire comes at a huge cost to other people, namely the Palestinians who also live there.


I really hope that you don't want to compare young innocent Jewish civilians who were unarmed and were brutally murdered by Arab terrorists in 1929 before the establishment of the state of Israel to a military operation carried out by the Irgun against a military target of the British as a response to Operation Agatha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Agatha.

And the Deir Yassin thing that you have mentioned doesn't even compare to what the Arabs had in plan to do Jews in 1948 when they attacked it. They wanted to murder every single Jewish man woman and child, all of them.

Miraculously Israel has won against all odds, and their dark blood lust of the Arabs never came to realization. So whats the comparison?

If someone surrounds your home with guns and tanks and missiles and aircraft and bombs and calls out that he plans to enter your house and murder your entire family, and before that happens an angel descends and saves you, should we then brush all the wicked intentions of your aggressors under the rug just because they couldn't do what they planned?

And I don't even want to go back to the historic massacres of Jewish communities in the hands of the swordsman of Mohamed, the atrocities are mentioned in the Koran, they don't even try to hide it.


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## mamascarlatti

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> I If someone surrounds *your home *with guns and tanks and missiles and aircraft and bombs and calls out that he plans to enter your house and murder your entire family, and before that happens an angel descends and saves you, should we then brush all the wicked intentions of your aggressors under the rug just because they couldn't do what they planned?


Whose home?

The answer would depend on which side you are talking to.

There are two sides to every question. You can only see one. This will never change, more's the pity. I am excusing myself from this futile discussion.

As for angels, so far never come across one. Even more reason why we can't discuss, I'm an atheist.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Andre said:


> All I'm saying is that countries "created" artificially - like Israel, Yugoslavia, the former East Germany - tend not to last because the basis upon which they were created were not fully thought through in terms of the larger political, religious, cultural, ethnic and social impacts this would have. This is probably thinking far ahead, but once the USA ceases to be a superpower, Israel will have no big brother supporting them, and I don't think it will last for this reason in the long term. But this is mere speculation, but this was more my line of thinking than the anti-Israel stance you were trying to make out of it...


There was nothing 'artificial' about it.

Israel existed 3300 years, to this very day, all the time trying to protect themselves from evil dictatorships.

Babylon, Greece and Rome all tried to destroy it, but they got destroyed themselves.

Israel re established itself recently after the long exile that the Romans have brought upon them. But Rome was erased from memory , but the Jews are still hear, amazing I know, but the Jews are still here, and will always continue to exist, because its a biblical promise by God, so far thank goodness God had stuck to his word and promise, and he will never change it for he is no man to change opinions . He swore in the bible, that Israel and the Jewish people will exist forever.

So I am not really worried about a country that was created 300 years ago stopping their support to Israel. We have god on our side, and that is all that matters.


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## Almaviva

*The frustrating life of a moderator*

OK, guys, how many of these discussions have we all seen, heard, and/or participated of, in decades (in my case) of Internet posting? Countless.

How many of them have ever made a single person change his/her views on such a controversial topic as the Israeli-Arab conflict? I'd say, zero.

How many of them ended in insults being exchanged for no gain? I'd say, all of them.

Do I have an opinion on this topic, and a rather strong one? You bet.

But while I'm wearing my moderator hat, I'd rather not say what I think.

So, being a moderator in the middle of this is frustrating, to say the least.

Why, oh why do such threads get started in a Classical Music site? There certainly are better venues for this.

I'd hope that people would go back to discussing music.

But I'll settle for, at least, a civil discussion (which this one has been for the most part, with a few deviations).

But civil or not, you all rest assured, no good has ever been achieved from such discussions.

It's all useless. You all should agree to disagree.

What a futile exercise!


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

mamascarlatti said:


> Whose home?
> 
> The answer would depend on which side you are talking to.
> 
> There are two sides to every question. You can only see one. This will never change, more's the pity. I am excusing myself from this futile discussion.
> 
> As for angels, so far never come across one. Even more reason why we can't discuss, I'm an atheist.


I didn't ask anyone to participate in this discussion. Originally this thread was created about the horrific tragedy that took place in Israel. But instead of discussing the tragedy, I was trying to answer questions from all directions about Israel.

You can do as you wish, you can stay or leave this discussion, its up to you.


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## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Almaviva said:


> *The frustrating life of a moderator*
> 
> OK, guys, how many of these discussions have we all seen, heard, and/or participated of, in decades (in my case) of Internet posting? Countless.
> 
> How many of them have ever made a single person change his/her views on such a controversial topic as the Israeli-Arab conflict? I'd say, zero.
> 
> How many of them ended in insults being exchanged for no gain? I'd say, all of them.
> 
> Do I have an opinion on this topic, and a rather strong one? You bet.
> 
> But while I'm wearing my moderator hat, I'd rather not say what I think.
> 
> So, being a moderator in the middle of this is frustrating, to say the least.
> 
> Why, oh why do such threads get started in a Classical Music site? There certainly are better venues for this.
> 
> I'd hope that people would go back to discussing music.
> 
> But I'll settle for, at least, a civil discussion (which this one has been for the most part, with a few deviations).
> 
> But civil or not, you all rest assured, no good has ever been achieved from such discussions.
> 
> It's all useless. You all should agree to disagree.
> 
> What a futile exercise!


You are right on every thing you said.

But it seems that some people refuse to condemn this horrific murders, by saying that there are always 'two stories'.

Truly sad, that some people cant condemn this without strings attached.


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## Pieck

USA helps us because there are 7000000 jews in it and they stand in some good positions.


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## Very Senior Member

Almaviva said:


> So, being a moderator in the middle of this is frustrating, to say the least.


 I thought you are a moderator in the Opera forum only. Isn't that the case?


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## emiellucifuge

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> Its like you are bringing to my attention a webpage of Bin Laden that lists all the atrocities that the United States committed against Muslims , and therefore he is right in wanting to see all Americans dead.
> 
> You cant compare an independent Wikipedia historical non-terrorist non Jewish source such as wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre, with a terrorist inspired webpage that blames all the worlds problems on the Jewish people.


If you want a neutral, non-arab view then here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre



> I think that you too fell victim to international media but we are willing to do practicly almost anything to make peace if we know that there will be peace. Have you heard about Gilad Shalit? The captured soldier that Hamas holding without even seeing the Red Cross. Do you know how many terrorists Hamas wants Israel to free in exchange of him? over 1000 mudurers of innocent people. Show me another country who would even consider this exchange?


I dont agree with the behaviour on each side. However, to claim that the palestinians neve wanted peace is an obvious lie. These leaked documents prove that.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Very Senior Member said:


> I thought you are a moderator in the Opera forum only. Isn't that the case?


Here- allow me...

He's a Moderator with a _specialty emphasis_ in the Opera forum, but whose input on all other forums is encouraged, appreciated *and supported* by all the other staffers here. His input here should be respected to the same degree as the input of ANY OTHER Moderator or Administrator.

With that said, it's clear that discussion of this topic- even among people with whom we happily discuss the primary topic of this forum (Classical Music) leads to some rancor that is otherwise out of character. To paraphrase my colleague *jhar26*, we'd prefer tabling this discussion rather than allowing it to continue and letting people's input continue to run to the point where we're impelled to issue sanctions.


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