# Religious Music Without Lyrics



## 1996D

Referring to less obvious Christian music that is without Bible passages or singing, yet still devoted to Christ. A couple of examples are Liszt's _Consolations_ and _Harmonies Poétiques et Religieuses_.


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## Manxfeeder

There's also Biber's Mystery Sonatas and Haydn's Seven Last Words (the nonchoral versions).


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## Allegro Con Brio

Lots of Messiaen - _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_, _Et exspecto resurrectionum mortuorum_, _Vingt regards pour l'enfant Jesus_ off the top of my head.


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## mikeh375

Jonathan Harvey..






James Mac Millan...


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## 1996D

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Lots of Messiaen - _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_, _Et exspecto resurrectionum mortuorum_, _Vingt regards pour l'enfant Jesus_ off the top of my head.


I wonder which works had a Christian inspiration with nothing in the name to suggest it; they would be the opposite of Messiaen's.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Jonathan Harvey..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> James Mac Millan...


The death of light indeed... Who are these guys your high school buddies?


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> The death of light indeed... Who are these guys your high school buddies?


LOL. These men had and have a deeply held faith. More ignorance from you. 
A simple google of their names will show you their calibre.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> LOL. These men had and have a deeply held faith. More ignorance from you.
> A simple google of their names will show you their calibre.


They can claim whatever they want, they don't have faith. Look at what the person does not what he/she claims.


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> They can claim whatever they want, they don't have faith. Look at what the person does not what he/she claims.


well I'll leave that with you to speak for itself.


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## isorhythm

A number of Sofia Gubaidulina's pieces might fit the bill, for example:






Also, and maybe this is too obvious, probably a large majority of the entire organ repertoire.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> well I'll leave that with you.


It's inversion.

The good thing is that nobody listens to it.


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## 1996D

isorhythm said:


> A number of Sofia Gubaidulina's pieces might fit the bill, for example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, and maybe this is too obvious, probably a large majority of the entire organ repertoire.


_Make music from your heart to the Lord_

This might be music from her rotting heart, but it's certainly not going to the Lord.


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## isorhythm

1996D said:


> _Make music from your heart to the Lord_
> 
> This might be music from her rotting heart, but it's certainly not going to the Lord.


I wasn't going to say anything but those Liszt pieces you posted are terrible.


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## 1996D

isorhythm said:


> I wasn't going to say anything but those Liszt pieces you posted are terrible.


They are however from Liszt's heart to the Lord. If you want to make a thread about inversion and occultism in music then go ahead.


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## isorhythm

^I would sincerely suggest that you listen to Messiaen's _Visions de l'Amen_ with an open mind. It's very beautiful and even if you mostly like pre-1900 music you may warm to it.


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## flamencosketches

Messiaen is the master of this category of music, especially his organ music. _La Nativité_, _Offrande au Saint Sacrament_, _Le Corps Glorieux_ etc. etc. I can hardly think of any other instrumental music out there so imbued with Christian spirituality.


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## 1996D

flamencosketches said:


> Messiaen is the master of this category of music, especially his organ music. _La Nativité_, _Offrande au Saint Sacrament_, _Le Corps Glorieux_ etc. etc. I can hardly think of any other instrumental music out there so imbued with Christian spirituality.


Very disturbing music, definitely not something conducive to leading a virtuous life. The man was disturbed, his wife died in a sanatorium, and he most likely put her there.

Until a Christian scholar makes a compelling argument stating otherwise, Messiaen was a degenerate; that's where sound intuition leads to.


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## Josquin13

Messiaen was influenced by Erik Satie's solo piano works that are connected to Christian mysticism & influence--such as his "Sonneries de la Rose Croix", and "Danses gothiques", which Satie dedicated "To the Transcendent Solemn and Representative Ecstasy of Saint Benedict, and the Preparatory Methodology of the Most Powerful Benedictine Order". Each of Satie's Danses gothiques' titles has an affiliation to Christianity or Christian themes--such as no. 8, "In the high honor of the revered Saint Michael, the graceful Archangel". While Satie's Quartre Ogives were influenced by the curved outlines of pointed gothic arches (and plainchant) at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.














The Catalan composer Frederico Mompou spent time in Paris & was likewise influenced by Satie. Mompou's Satie-like "Musica Callada" for solo piano is inspired by the mystical poems of Saint John of the Cross.






Mompou dedicated Book 4 of his Musica Callada to pianist Alicia de Larrocha, who played the book incredibly well, but she didn't record the others:





Claude Debussy was another composer that came under the influence of Satie, though the mysticism in Debussy's music is more consciously universal or cosmic, & stems directly from his experiences hearing Javanese Gamelan music in Paris (concerts that Satie insisted he attend), rather than any specifically Christian mysticism. With the one exception of Debussy's symbolic Prelude for piano, "La cathédrale engloutie":






Satie was himself likely influenced by Liszt's late piano works.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Giovanni Gabrieli's monumental collections _Sacrae Symphoniae_ (1597) and _Canzoni e Sonate_ (1615) contain dozens of instrumental works, having anywhere from 5 to 22 parts, that were used to substitute for portions of the Mass.


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## Josquin13

"The man was disturbed, his wife died in a sanatorium, and he most likely put her there."

Messiaen's first wife, Claire Delbos, had developed some health issues in the 1940s during the war, and in 1949 needed a routine operation, which went horribly wrong. She was left in a state of total amnesia for the rest of her life. It was this botched operation & the subsequent serious deterioration in her health that put Delbos in a nursing facility and then later an institution, and not her husband.


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## 1996D

Josquin13 said:


> "The man was disturbed, his wife died in a sanatorium, and he most likely put her there."
> 
> Messiaen's first wife, Claire Delbos, had developed some health issues in the 1940s during the war, and in 1949 needed a routine operation, which went horribly wrong. She was left in a state of total amnesia for the rest of her life. It was this botched operation & the subsequent serious deterioration in her health that put Delbos in a nursing facility and then later an institution, and not her husband.


The information available is really murky. What kind of 'routine procedure' leads to amnesia? Messiaen was left traumatized by the war and shortly thereafter his wife went insane, and had a supposed 'routine procedure' on her brain, which makes no sense.


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## Josquin13

"... had a supposed 'routine procedure' on her brain, which makes no sense."

My best guess would be that she began to suffer from severe headaches in the 1940s, or migraines, and that the 'routine procedure' was meant to alleviate her migraines.


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## flamencosketches

1996D said:


> Very disturbing music, definitely not something conducive to leading a virtuous life. The man was disturbed, his wife died in a sanatorium, and he most likely put her there.
> 
> Until a Christian scholar makes a compelling argument stating otherwise, Messiaen was a degenerate; that's where sound intuition leads to.


You're wrong. I give it 6 months, you'll fall in love with Messiaen's music yet.

Another work for this category is Arthur Honegger's Symphony No.3, the "Liturgique". The slow movement especially. Sublime.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Josquin13 said:


> "... had a supposed 'routine procedure' on her brain, which makes no sense."
> 
> My best guess would be that she began to suffer from severe headaches in the 1940s, or migraines, and that the 'routine procedure' was meant to alleviate her migraines.


Claire Delbos had shown signs of mental disintegration since at least 1943. She suffered from early onset dementia leading to progressive and irreversible cerebral atrophy, which not only impaired her memory and intellectual function, but robbed her of the ability to communicate with the outside world.


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## 1996D

flamencosketches said:


> You're wrong. I give it 6 months, you'll fall in love with Messiaen's music yet.
> 
> Another work for this category is Arthur Honegger's Symphony No.3, the "Liturgique". The slow movement especially. Sublime.


Both Messiaen and Honegger write from a place of trauma, which is understandable since they witnessed the wars, but results in bent music. You can write about horrible things but there must be a good, uplifting message.

Ironically enough these pieces are filled with nihilism, as is the whole modernist and contemporary movement across all art forms. There is however a way to point out the bad that happens without losing artistic integrity and purity of spirit, and hopefully we'll see that happen soon.


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## flamencosketches

1996D said:


> Both Messiaen and Honegger write from a place of trauma, which is understandable since they witnessed the wars, but results in bent music. You can write about horrible things but there must be a good, uplifting message.
> 
> Ironically enough these pieces are filled with nihilism, as is the whole modernist and contemporary movement across all art forms. There is however a way to point out the bad that happens without losing artistic integrity and purity of spirit, and hopefully we'll see that happen soon.


An almost childlike simplification of the reality. Nothing less than I have grown to expect from 1996D


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## Phil loves classical

1996D said:


> Very disturbing music, definitely not something conducive to leading a virtuous life. The man was disturbed, his wife died in a sanatorium, and he most likely put her there.
> 
> Until a Christian scholar makes a compelling argument stating otherwise, Messiaen was a degenerate; that's where sound intuition leads to.


Hmm... what did the Bible say about judging others?

Here is one by Stravinsky which he called "an austere ritual which is unfolded in terms of short litanies"


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## 1996D

Phil loves classical said:


> Hmm... what did the Bible say about judging others?
> 
> Here is one by Stravinsky which he called "an austere ritual which is unfolded in terms of short litanies"


For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.



flamencosketches said:


> An almost childlike simplification of the reality. Nothing less than I have grown to expect from 1996D


You can write a thousand excuses for an action or you can simplify and see thing bluntly, as they are.


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.


Does that mean that if you accuse Messiaen of being responsible for his wife's mental illness, we get to accuse you of something loathsome - something like, say, filling a music forum with infantile judgments and pompous pronouncements on music you don't like, its composers, and people who do like it?



> You can write a thousand excuses for an action or you can simplify and see thing bluntly, as they are.


Pity you can't see anything unfiltered by your narrow world view.

Why did you start this thread? It might have been to discover the diverse ways composers express the feelings inspired by their religious beliefs. But that's obviously not what you're interested in. You appear to be interested in proving yourself the annointed arbiter of what "correct" religious music should sound like, and of what composers have the "true religion." What a pitiful waste of a thread.


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## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> Does that mean that if you accuse Messiaen of being responsible for his wife's mental illness, we get to accuse you of something loathsome - something like, say, filling a music forum with infantile judgments and pompous pronouncements on music you don't like, its composers, and people who do like it?
> 
> Pity you can't see anything unfiltered by your narrow world view.


Messiaen's situation is murky, I did not accuse him but did bring a situation to light, to be discussed. Unfortunately my scholastic source for matters involving religion did not consider Messiaen as important enough to study, so I'm left to speculate about the nature of his work.



Woodduck said:


> Why did you start this thread? It might have been to discover the diverse ways composers express the feelings inspired by their religious beliefs. But that's obviously not what you're interested in. You appear to be interested in proving yourself the annointed arbiter of what "correct" religious music should sound like, and of what composers have the "true religion." What a pitiful waste of a thread.


There are a handful of good examples posted and another handful of bad ones, but it's still informative to know about such compositions, named after Christ yet with nihilistic tone.

There is no 'diverse way' to express Christianity; they might have expressed their religious beliefs but it certainly wasn't Christianity as taught in the Bible, thus why I suggested that a thread be started about inversion and occultism in music.


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> Messiaen's situation is murky, I did not accuse him but did bring a situation to light, to be discussed. Unfortunately my scholastic source for matters involving religion did not consider Messiaen as important enough to study, so I'm left to speculate about the nature of his work.
> 
> There are a handful of good examples posted and another handful of bad ones, but it's still informative to know about such compositions, named after Christ yet with nihilistic tone.
> 
> There is no 'diverse way' to express Christianity; they might have expressed their religious beliefs but it certainly wasn't Christianity as taught in the Bible, thus why I suggested that a thread be started about inversion and occultism in music.


Poor rationalizations for presumptuousness.

There is no such thing as music that "expresses Christianity." There is only music inspired by the ideas and feelings of individual human beings, who experience Christian concepts in ways determined by their individuality natures and cultural contexts. What sort of music any Christian (or non-Christian) uses to represent elements of Christian doctrine, to accompany religious practice, or to suggest ideas associated with Christianity, is necessarily variable beyond any such simplistic categories as you want to apply, and extreme diversity is acceptable and inevitable. A person (I, for example) might hear absolutely nothing evocative of his own religious feelings in the Liszt piano works you post at the beginning of the thread, and for you to insist that there is anything inherently "Christian" about them is pure fantasy on your part. You are just as entitled - but not a bit more entitled - to perceive them as "Christian music" as someone else is to perceive Christianity in a Dufay motet, Stravinsky's _Symphony of Psalms,_ Tournemire's _L'Orgue Mystique,_ or Wagner's _Parsifal._ And as for trying to deduce a composer's character from his music, I think some of the most glorious "Christian music" was written by that gruff old atheist, Ralph Vaughan Williams.

Your simplistic moralism is a waste of time. You'd do better to investigate and think about the many possible ways in which Christianity can be experienced by different people, and then embodied artistically.


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## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> Poor rationalizations for presumptuousness.
> 
> There is no such thing as music that "expresses Christianity." There is only music inspired by the ideas and feelings of individual human beings, who experience Christian concepts in ways determined by their individuality natures and cultural contexts. What sort of music any Christian (or non-Christian) uses to represent elements of Christian doctrine, to accompany religious practice, or to suggest ideas associated with Christianity, is necessarily variable beyond any such simplistic categories as you want to apply, and extreme diversity is acceptable and inevitable. A person (I, for example) might hear absolutely nothing evocative of his own religious feelings in the Liszt piano works you post at the beginning of the thread, and for you to insist that there is anything inherently "Christian" about them is pure fantasy on your part. You are just as entitled - but not a bit more entitled - to perceive them as "Christian music" as someone else is to perceive Christianity in a Dufay motet, Stravinsky's _Symphony of Psalms,_ Tournemire's _L'Orgue Mystique,_ or Wagner's _Parsifal._ And as for trying to deduce a composer's character from his music, I think some of the most glorious "Christian music" was written by that gruff old atheist, Ralph Vaughan Williams.
> 
> Your simplistic moralism is a waste of time. You'd do better to investigate and think about the many possible ways in which Christianity can be experienced by different people, and then embodied artistically.


I expected nothing less deconstructionist from you. If you don't know the Bible there is nothing to discuss here.


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> I expected nothing less deconstructionist from you. If you don't know the Bible there is nothing to discuss here.


I expected nothing less arrogant and vacuous from you.

You have no way to know what I know about the Bible unless I tell you.

Clearly there can't be a real discussion here. It and you are completely fraudulent. You should go back to composing mediocre music. At least it won't bother anyone else.


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## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> I expected nothing less arrogant and vacuous from you.
> 
> You have no way to know what I know about the Bible unless I tell you.
> 
> Clearly there can't be a real discussion here. It and you are completely fraudulent. You should go back to composing mediocre music. At least it won't bother anyone else.


I know you don't know the Bible by your previous answer.


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> I know you don't know the Bible by your previous answer.


You are more off-base than you can even imagine. And not only about that. Go back to music and leave ideas to people unencumbered by massive prejudice and self-infatuation.


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## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> You are more off-base than you can even imagine. And not only about that. Go back to music and leave ideas to people unencumbered by massive prejudice and self-infatuation.


You're projecting your fears, always, and are running away from truth. If only you knew the Bible and understood it, there would be no problem here, but you are forever in rebellion.


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## Phil loves classical

1996D said:


> For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.


So by the way you judge others, I can use that to judge millennials (assuming you are one by your handle)?



1996D said:


> I know you don't know the Bible by your previous answer.


Food for thought "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Is it possible from this that composers can express their belief in some unknown, whether or not they know the Bible?


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> You're projecting your fears, always, and are running away from truth. If only you knew the Bible and understood it, there would be no problem here, but you are forever in rebellion.


You are forever in adolescence, and the "problem here" is that you think you have something worthwhile to say. The same problem appears _wherever_ you appear on the forum. All you really have is cheap psychologizing and excruciatingly jejune preachiness.

You've called my thinking deconstructionist, which it isn't, and you've said that I don't know the Bible, which is also wrong. I know enough about the Bible, and have enough respect for it, to know that your Christianity, which you put constantly on pompous parade, is as phony as Donald Trump's patriotism. You need to go off and pray in secret instead of airing your self-righteousness in the public square.


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## 1996D

Phil loves classical said:


> Food for thought "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
> 
> Is it possible from this that composers can express their belief in some unknown, whether or not they know the Bible?


Yes but it is then not Christian; they can't attach the name of Christ to work based on a religion of their fantasies. Many of the works listed here are an inversion of everything that's Christian, very much like Schoenberg's Moses und Aron is of historical Judaism.

A thread about inversion and occult practices in music is what's appropriate to discuss such works.


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## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> You are forever in adolescence, and the "problem here" is that you think you have something worthwhile to say. The same problem appears wherever _you_ appear on the forum. All you really have is cheap psychologizing and excruciatingly jejune preachiness.
> 
> You've called my thinking deconstructionist, which it isn't, and you've said that I don't know the Bible, which is also wrong. I know enough about the Bible, and have enough respect for it, to know that your Christianity, which you put constantly on pompous parade, is as phony as Donald Trump's patriotism. You need to go off and pray in secret instead of airing your self-righteousness in the public square.


If anyone is in an adolescent-like rebellion it's you. You came to my thread and all you do is project, almost as a cry for help. I already told that you can get your help through the Bible; there is not much more to say.


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> If anyone is in an adolescent-like rebellion it's you. You came to my thread and all you do is project, almost as a cry for help. I already told that you can get your help through the Bible; *there is not much more to say.*


Then don't say any more. And when people offer examples of music they think fits what a rational person would suppose this thread to be about, show some respect for them and their choices, quit invoking the Bible as a cudgel, and refrain from pretending to know what sort of music Jesus would approve of. Frankly, kid, nobody gives a damn, and Jesus is laughing at you.


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## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> Then don't say any more. And when people offer examples of music they think fits what a rational person would suppose this thread to be about, show some respect for them and their choices, quit invoking the Bible as a cudgel, and refrain from pretending to know what sort of music Jesus would approve of. Frankly, kid, nobody gives a damn, and Jesus is laughing at you.


You don't know Christ, you insult him at every opportunity.


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## annaw

Sooo, I'm a Christian myself and I'm deeply confused by this recent discussion. I cannot exactly grasp the idea how any music could be inherently Christian if it doesn't have lyrics? Would I know that Christian music without lyrics is Christian without knowing the title and composer's intentions - how would I determine whether it is or not? Even less I understand what all this has to do with one's understanding of Bible? I think this is a very personal matter - Bruckner was a deeply religious person and as a result I'm more than sure that his symphonic music expresses these sympathies. Yet they are interpretable in very different ways. Some people might not consider his views at all, others will be inspired by them but I don't think it's possible to determine what was his understanding of Bible based on his symphonic music. I cannot imagine how one should determine whether a Catholic, Lutheran or Protestant wrote this exact music...


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## 1996D

annaw said:


> Sooo, I'm a Christian myself and I'm deeply confused by this recent discussion. I cannot exactly grasp the idea how any music could be inherently Christian if it doesn't have lyrics? Would I know that Christian music without lyrics is Christian without knowing the title and composer's intentions - how would I determine whether it is or not? Even less I understand what all this has to do with one's understanding of Bible? I think this is a very personal matter - Bruckner was deeply religious person and as a result I'm more than sure that his symphonic music expresses these sympathies. Yet they are interpretable in very different ways. Some people might not consider his views at all, others will be inspired by them but I don't think it's possible to determine what was his understanding of Bible based on his symphonic music. I cannot imagine how one should determine whether a Catholic, Lutheran or Protestant wrote this exact music...


It's music that has a Christian title _and_ meaning, but without lyrics. There are also pieces being posted that have an occult religion behind them; Hermetic, Gnostic or otherwise; yet may have a Christian name, thus why the Bible was mentioned.


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## annaw

1996D said:


> It's music that has a Christian title _and_ meaning, but without lyrics. There are also pieces being posted that have an occult religion behind them; Hermetic, Gnostic or otherwise; yet may have a Christian name, thus why the Bible was mentioned.


Still, what does this have to do with Bible and Woodduck's understanding of it? I'm not sure whether even the title and meaning can make a piece inherently religious. An atheist might not see any religious meaning there at all and how do we determine that all the works that have a name somehow related to Christianity, have also a Christian meaning? If music without lyrics can be inherently Christian then it seems that an atheist could accidentally write religious music because its inherent Christianity might not occur to him.


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## 1996D

annaw said:


> Still, what does this have to do with Bible and Woodduck's understanding of it? I'm not sure whether even the title and meaning can make a piece inherently religious. An atheist might not see any religious meaning there at all and how do we determine that all the works that have a name somehow related to Christianity, have also a Christian meaning? If music without lyrics can be inherently Christian then it seems that an atheist could accidentally write religious music because its inherent Christianity might not occur to him.


Yes, there is a dilemma there. Although it's highly doubtful that an atheist would be capable of writing Christian music, the top composers were all of the faith. Even Brahms who atheists claim, attributed his talent to God, and acknowledged that his composing was intuitive.

Composers such as Schoenberg have used biblical stories to create highly inversive works and there are examples here of composers that use Christian titles to do the same, so it's right to say that a title can be misleading and at times the exact opposite of the piece's true meaning.


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> Yes, there is a dilemma there. *Although it's highly doubtful that an atheist would be capable of writing Christian music.......,*.


One has already been mentioned by Woodduck so I'll add these guys...

Berlioz, Verdi, Janacek, Maxwell Davies, Korsakov, Britten.

Below is from the Catholic Herald in relation to atheist/agnostic composers who have contributed in a major way to the religious canon....

_"Devotional powers of music clearly do not depend on the religious adherence of its creators, leaving us an enduring inspirational legacy that transcends mere details of biography"._


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> One has already been mentioned by Woodduck so I'll add these guys...
> 
> Berlioz, Verdi, Janacek, Maxwell Davies, Korsakov, Britten.
> 
> Below is from the Catholic Herald in relation to atheist/agnostic composers who have contributed in a major way to the religious canon....
> 
> _"Devotional powers of music clearly do not depend on the religious adherence of its creators, leaving us an enduring inspirational legacy that transcends mere details of biography"._


4 of them are minor composers, Berlioz's wife was a devout Catholic, an there is no evidence of Verdi not believing.


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## annaw

1996D said:


> Yes, there is a dilemma there. Although it's highly doubtful that an atheist would be capable of writing Christian music, the top composers were all of the faith. Even Brahms who atheists claim, attributed his talent to God, and acknowledged that his composing was intuitive.
> 
> Composers such as Schoenberg have used biblical stories to create highly inversive works and there are examples here of composers that use Christian titles to do the same, so it's right to say that a title can be misleading and at times the exact opposite of the piece's true meaning.


My main problem is that titles and meanings don't, as far as I've understood, define the essence of music. Thus I don't see how one could claim that a piece is inherently Christian because that should, correct me if I'm wrong, mean that it can be perceived objectively Christian by all people, both religious, agnostics and atheists. Music is abstract by nature and its goal, in contrast to many other arts, is not to represent the exterior world but something more abstract. A Russian painter Wassily Kandinsky, who played a very important role in the development of abstract painting, put this same theory into practice and named his paintings using musical terminology. Religion can be part of both exterior world and one's personal inner understanding but this is not objectively understood the same way by different people, music itself isn't either as I explained above. What for one person may be thoroughly religious, is religiously meaningless for another one.


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> 4 of them are minor composers, Berlioz's wife was a devout Catholic, an there is no evidence of Verdi not believing.


My wife's a gardener. Some names in my little roll call are of the highest calibre.

This below, from my last post must've escaped your attention, so here it is again...

Below is from the Catholic Herald in relation to atheist/agnostic composers who have contributed in a major way to the religious canon....

_"Devotional powers of music clearly do not depend on the religious adherence of its creators, leaving us an enduring inspirational legacy that transcends mere details of biography"._


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## Strange Magic

mikeh375 said:


> One has already been mentioned by Woodduck so I'll add these guys...
> 
> Berlioz, Verdi, Janacek, Maxwell Davies, Korsakov, Britten.
> 
> Below is from the Catholic Herald in relation to atheist/agnostic composers who have contributed in a major way to the religious canon....
> 
> _"Devotional powers of music clearly do not depend on the religious adherence of its creators, leaving us an enduring inspirational legacy that transcends mere details of biography"._


And let's not forget Saint-Saëns.


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## mikeh375

Strange Magic said:


> And let's not forget Saint-Saëns.


indeed...but apparently "minor" composers don't count.


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## Room2201974

1996D said:


> Yes, there is a dilemma there. Although it's highly doubtful that an atheist would be capable of writing Christian music, the top composers were all of the faith. Even Brahms who atheists claim, attributed his talent to God, and acknowledged that his composing was intuitive.


Earlier this year I read Jan Swafford's brilliant bio of Brahms. Swafford is a music educator, music historian and composer. He mentions Brahms lack of faith, yet NEVER once mentions that Brahms thought his gift was from god.

And so *1996d*, once again, I'm calling you out. Cite reference and source for this claim. Perhaps I am wrong and you are right. If so.....prove it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Brahms was an agnostic who saw great literary value in the Bible, but not necessarily truth. That’s all I will contribute!


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## millionrainbows

annaw said:


> My main problem is that titles and meanings don't, as far as I've understood, define the essence of music. Thus I don't see how one could claim that a piece is inherently Christian because that should, correct me if I'm wrong, mean that it can be perceived objectively Christian by all people, both religious, agnostics and atheists.


I disagree; I don't think the subjective intent on the part of the composer can be separated or ignored, or that music can be "objectified" in this way,



> Music is abstract by nature and its goal, in contrast to many other arts, is not to represent the exterior world but something more abstract. A Russian painter Wassily Kandinsky, who played a very important role in the development of abstract painting, put this same theory into practice and named his paintings using musical terminology.


Abstract or not, my contention is more basic to art. Art is a two-way inter-subjective system of signs, like a language to a degree. If you 'objectify' it, half the equation is lost.



> Religion can be part of both exterior world and one's personal inner understanding but this is not objectively understood the same way by different people, music itself isn't either as I explained above. What for one person may be thoroughly religious, is religiously meaningless for another one.


To retain the full meaning of music or art, its function must be seen as intended by the artist and his context. *The "meaning" of religion or a religious icon is not "removed" from the object, since it is not "in" the object.* All "meaning" in art is inter-subjective, and is a condition of "being" which is experienced and facilitated by the artist and the audience in an exchange and sharing of experience.


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## Coach G

It could be that certain aspects of religious practices affect the brain in ways that are similar to the effect that music has upon the brain. Maybe part of the reason why Christianity has been so successful as a world religion, is because it has always had the best music (be it Bach's Cantatas, the Mass, _Ave Maria_, Gospel, or Eastern Orthodox Chant) and the best food in that, with the exception of the Seventh-Day Adventists, it's one of the only world religions where you can eat anything you want.

But there is a rhythm to prayers and sermonizing, and testifying; that I think is closely related to how music effects the brain.

In a neurological sense, it could be that there is a harmony between the disciplines of music, psychology, and religion. Composers such as Bach, Mozart and Stravinsky believed that their music came from God, or some higher force. My first recording of Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_ was an LP reissue that featured Stravinsky himself as the conductor, and it also included some rather snooty and tart liner notes, also penned by Stravinsky, where he said that _Rite_ came to him like a dream, and then stated something like:

"I am the vessel through which_ Rite of Spring_ passed."


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## millionrainbows




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## JAS

annaw said:


> My main problem is that titles and meanings don't, as far as I've understood, define the essence of music. Thus I don't see how one could claim that a piece is inherently Christian because that should, correct me if I'm wrong, mean that it can be perceived objectively Christian by all people, both religious, agnostics and atheists. Music is abstract by nature and its goal, in contrast to many other arts, is not to represent the exterior world but something more abstract. A Russian painter Wassily Kandinsky, who played a very important role in the development of abstract painting, put this same theory into practice and named his paintings using musical terminology. Religion can be part of both exterior world and one's personal inner understanding but this is not objectively understood the same way by different people, music itself isn't either as I explained above. What for one person may be thoroughly religious, is religiously meaningless for another one.


The broader point of your question is obvious that it is not possible. The closest is, for example, Mendelssohn's 5th symphony, which is based on Luther's famous hymn. It only works if the listener has that element in his or her background to recognize it. Other than something of that sort, some music has been created by Christians that is loud and boisterous, and other music that is quiet and meditative. I don't think that I could list measurable qualities of music (without text) that are specifically characteristic of Christianity, and certainly not uniquely so.


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## Coach G

JAS said:


> The broader point of your question is obvious that it is not possible. The closest is, for example, Mendelssohn's 5th symphony, which is based on Luther's famous hymn. It only works if the listener has that element in his or her background to recognize it. Other than something of that sort, some music has been created by Christians that is loud and boisterous, and other music that is quiet and meditative. *I don't think that I could list measurable qualities of music (without text) that are specifically characteristic of Christianity, and certainly not uniquely so.*


Specifically Christian, no; religious/spiritual, yes. To reference your example, I could see where a person who is not a Christian, or even a Lutheran, could get swept away, emotionally, listening to the finale of Mendelssohn's 5th, without knowing the context of Luther's (and Mendelssohn's) religious vision. Neurologically, the being "swept away" by music probably approximates a religious feeling.


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## JAS

Coach G said:


> Specifically Christian, no; religious/spiritual, yes. To reference your example, I could see where a person who is not a Christian, or even a Lutheran could get swept away, emotionally, listening to the finale of Mendelssohn's 5th, without knowing the context of Luther's (and Mendelssohn's) religious vision. Neurologically, the being "swept away" by music probably approximates a religious feeling.


But they probably would not think "hmmm, this must be Christian."

An emotional connection could be generated by a very different sort of background.

Handel's Hallelujah from his oratorio "The Messiah" is very energetic music, and easily recognized even without the words (if you already know it). Someone who has been in a closet for years and managed never to hear it before might listen and feel energized, but would they necessarily feel that it was Christian?

"Joy to the World," "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear" and "Silent Night" are all Christmas carols, but they don't really sound that much alike.


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## 1996D

Room2201974 said:


> Earlier this year I read Jan Swafford's brilliant bio of Brahms. Swafford is a music educator, music historian and composer. He mentions Brahms lack of faith, yet NEVER once mentions that Brahms thought his gift was from god.
> 
> And so *1996d*, once again, I'm calling you out. Cite reference and source for this claim. Perhaps I am wrong and you are right. If so.....prove it!


He has many writings attributing his talent to God, perhaps none more clear than the following: _"In my study I can lay my hand on the Bible in the pitch dark. All truly inspired ideas come from God. The powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles."_


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## JAS

1996D said:


> He has many writings attributing his talent to God, perhaps none more clear than the following: _"In my study I can lay my hand on the Bible in the pitch dark. All truly inspired ideas come from God. The powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles."_


I am always troubled by quotes that do not have a reliable source as part of the attribution. I am not saying that this quote is not accurate, but I know of too many examples where quotes are made to a specific person, and are not actually to be found in any credible source that goes back to that person. (In this case, it might be in German.)


----------



## 1996D

JAS said:


> I am always troubled by quotes that do not have a reliable source as part of the attribution. I am not saying that this quote is not accurate, but I know of too many examples where quotes are made to a specific person, and are not actually to be found in any credible source that goes back to that person. (In this case, it might be in German.)


It's from _'Johannes Brahms als mensch und freund'_. Very credible source.


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## Room2201974

1996D said:


> He has many writings attributing his talent to God, perhaps none more clear than the following: _"In my study I can lay my hand on the Bible in the pitch dark. All truly inspired ideas come from God. The powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles."_


................


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## JAS

1996D said:


> It's from _'Johannes Brahms als mensch und freund'_. Very credible source.


That helps a bit, although more context for the original would be nice, especially as that source seems to be in German. (It seems like a long statement. Is it from a dated letter? Someone's memory of something said?)


----------



## 1996D

JAS said:


> That helps a bit, although more context for the original would be nice, especially as that source seems to be in German. (It seems like a long statement. Is it from a dated letter? Someone's memory of something said?)


Yes the title says it, _Brahms as a person and friend_ by Rudolph von der Leyen and it is most likely from a letter. "His recollections of the composer span 1880-96 and include a number of short letters to and from Brahms."


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## Josquin13

Regarding Johannes Brahms' beliefs,

I'd suggest reading Alfred Abel's book, "Talks with Great Composers": https://www.amazon.com/Talks-Great-Composers-Arthur-Abell/dp/0806515651 . Abel claims that a stenographer was present for his interview with Brahms & his friend, the violinist Joseph Joachim. Unfortunately, Abel's book has come into question in recent decades, due to the promise that Abel apparently made to Brahms not to publish the interview until 50 years after the composer's death. Some people find that request suspicious. Personally, I think the interview is valid, and that a stenographer was indeed present. I don't believe Abel made things up, although Brahms' words are admittedly translated into English by Abel, which always opens up a can of worms (especially in regards to religious subjects and the Bible, as various translators often disagree about the meaning of certain words & phrases). Plus, Brahms read a German translation of the Bible, which only complicates matters further. (Not to mention that Hebrew words have multiple layers of meanings--all intended in the Bible, which novices seldom understand or appreciate.) My impression of Brahms from the Abel interview is that he was something of a Bible scholar, and very thoughtful and well-versed on the subject. But, as interesting as the Abel interview is, it hardly covers the whole subject in regards to what Brahms actually believed about Jesus and Christianity, & Judaism. (The text that Brahms chose to set for his German Requiem proves that, etc....)

P.S. By the way, the interview with composer Englebert Humperdinck in Abel's book is particularly fascinating, since Humperdinck talks primarily about important things that Richard Wagner told him regarding the creative process, including an account of Wagner's great admiration for Shakespeare (albeit in German translation, since Wagner apparently didn't read English...).


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## Manxfeeder

Josquin13 said:


> My impression of Brahms from the Abel interview is that he was something of a Bible scholar, and very thoughtful and well-versed on the subject.


I know Brahms was very biblical literate, but I thought he was agnostic. Maybe someone can clear something up for me. There is a quote in Patrick Kavanaugh's book, The Spiritual Lives of Great Composers (not exactly a scholarly work), from Sourek's biography of Dvorak: "A person who listened in on a long conversation between [Brahms and Dvorak] later noted, 'On the way back to the hotel, Dvorak was more than usually silent. At last after some considerable time he exclaimed with emotion, 'Such a man, such a soul - and he doesn't believe in anything, he doesn't believe in anything!'" (Oskar Sourek, Letters and Reminiscences, pages 192-193.)

Does this sound authentic?


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## Coach G

JAS said:


> But they probably would not think "hmmm, this must be Christian."
> 
> An emotional connection could be generated by a very different sort of background.
> 
> Handel's Hallelujah from his oratorio "The Messiah" is very energetic music, and easily recognized even without the words (if you already know it). Someone who has been in a closet for years and managed never to her it before might hear that and feel energized, but would they necessarily feel that it was Christian?
> 
> "Joy to the World," "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear" and "Silent Night" are all Christmas carols, but they don't really sound that much alike.


I'd say that Christian music as we know it, is not much related to Christian theology apart from the music being used as a setting for religious texts and lyrics. While the Old and New Testament mention music many times, as a component of worship, whatever music was part of the religious life of early Christians is lost to history. Since Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, we might guess that early Christian music probably sounded a lot like the music that is heard in Jewish services today; but the break was over 2,000 years ago, so who can say?


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## Manxfeeder

Coach G said:


> We might guess that early Christian music probably sounded a lot like the music that is heard in Jewish services today; but the break was over 2,000 years ago, so who can say?


Paul mentions songs and hymns and spiritual songs. It sounds like the early church both borrowed from their Jewish roots and also had songs they made up themselves. I wonder if songs in the Corinthian church sounded like those in the Jerusalem church. I would think there would be cultural differences.


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## JAS

There are recordings of traditional music from various Jewish groups, and it is interesting how often it sounds like its context and not so much its kindred. I have a CD set of baroque era Jewish music, and it mostly just sounds Baroque. Similarly, I have a CD set of early American music from the Moravian community. It sounds much like music of its era.

If all religious music is inspired directly by God, then he must have very eclectic tastes.


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## 1996D

Manxfeeder said:


> I know Brahms was very biblical literate, but I thought he was agnostic. Maybe someone can clear something up for me. There is a quote in Patrick Kavanaugh's book, The Spiritual Lives of Great Composers (not exactly a scholarly work), from Sourek's biography of Dvorak: "A person who listened in on a long conversation between [Brahms and Dvorak] later noted, 'On the way back to the hotel, Dvorak was more than usually silent. At last after some considerable time he exclaimed with emotion, 'Such a man, such a soul - and he doesn't believe in anything, he doesn't believe in anything!'" (Oskar Sourek, Letters and Reminiscences, pages 192-193.)
> 
> Does this sound authentic?


I think he believed in God very strongly and the evidence is there from close friends of his. Rudolph von der Leyen knew him for a very long time and it's impossible to think that he would lie about a good friend of his.

Later books have influence from the secular modernist world in which they were written, and they are full of lies.


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## JAS

1996D said:


> I think he believed in God very strongly and the evidence is there from close friends of his. Rudolph von der Leyen knew him for a very long time and it's impossible to think that he would lie about a good friend of his.
> 
> Later books have influence from the secular modernist world in which they were written, and they are full of lies.


It is also just Dvorak's personal impression, on a specific occasion, assuming that it is recorded properly. It is possible that Brahms felt something deeply and did not let everyone see it, or on every occasion. It is even possible that if Dvorak raised the question of religion, Brahms just felt like being a contrarian. (I have the impression that he was like that, a bit of a gruff rascal.)


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## Manxfeeder

JAS said:


> It is possible that Brahms felt something deeply and did not let everyone see it, or on every occasion.


That makes sense to me. A lot of the music of Brahms moves me deeply on a spiritual level, regardless of whether he was agnostic or a believer.


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## Woodduck

The exact nature of Brahms's religious beliefs is of no demonstrable musical importance. We might imagine the possibility that a tendency to hold such beliefs influenced his preference for classical ideas of musical form, but of course Liszt's religion had no such effect on his own aesthetic choices. 

Facile speculation on some sort of causal determinism between religion and art is interesting but generally lands us in sophistries. The meanings we can attribute to art are not unlimited, but neither are they as narrowly restricted as our cultural and personal biases often make us think.


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## Art Rock

JAS said:


> That helps a bit, although more context for the original would be nice, especially as that source seems to be in German. (It seems like a long statement. Is it from a dated letter? Someone's memory of something said?)


I've downloaded the original text (in German, which I can read), and scanned the pdf (100 pages) twice quickly without finding this quote. I did find other statements about the bible. I'm off to bed now, I will give it one more try tomorrow.


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## mikeh375

This below, quoted in my last 2 posts must've escaped your attention 1996d yet again. I'm curious as to how this fits into your world.

...... from the Catholic Herald in relation to atheist/agnostic composers who have contributed in a major way to the religious canon....

_"Devotional powers of music clearly do not depend on the religious adherence of its creators, leaving us an enduring inspirational legacy that transcends mere details of biography"._


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> This below, quoted in my last 2 posts must've escaped your attention 1996d yet again. I'm curious as to how this fits into your world.
> 
> ...... from the Catholic Herald in relation to atheist/agnostic composers who have contributed in a major way to the religious canon....
> 
> _"Devotional powers of music clearly do not depend on the religious adherence of its creators, leaving us an enduring inspirational legacy that transcends mere details of biography"._


_

That only applies of biographies that are poorly made. If they are well made by people who knew them, especially close friends, you'll see that the music and the man go hand in hand.

If anything that quote confirms that biographies are written often full of lies and are not to be trusted unless from truly reliable sources. The media as always, is after money._


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## Room2201974

1996D said:


> He has many writings attributing his talent to God, perhaps none more clear than the following: _"In my study I can lay my hand on the Bible in the pitch dark. All truly inspired ideas come from God. The powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles."_


Horsefeathers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An anecdote from Rudolf von der Leyen unsupported by any other friend of Brahms who knew him, and most likely a projection of the author's own beliefs. This claim is not substantiated by Dvorak, or Von Bulow, or Clara Schumann, or as far as I can tell any other person who knew Brahms.

Rudolf von der Leyen is not even mentioned at all in May's bio and the three references to him in Swafford don't amount to much. *Nothing survives of the many letters that Brahms wrote that echos that paragraph.* Swafford mentions in his bio of Beethoven the shenanigans that Anton Schlinder perpetuated concerning the maestro. And herein lies the same issue: the problem with Von der Leyen's story is a lack of collaboration. OTOH, we have Brahms own admission that he wanted nothing to do with John 3:16 or anything like it when it came to the Requiem. How curious to omit THAT for a man who who supposedly believed his abilities came from the same powers that made miracles.

If you believe that a Palestinian preacher who has been dead for 2000 years will make you a better composer then by all means have at it. I'll stick with Beethoven's own admonishment:

"O Man, help yourself!"


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## 1996D

Room2201974 said:


> Horsefeathers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> An anecdote from Rudolf von der Leyen unsupported by any other friend of Brahms who knew him, and most likely a projection of the author's own beliefs. This claim is not substantiated by Dvorak, or Von Bulow, or Clara Schumann, or as far as I can tell any other person who knew Brahms.
> 
> Rudolf von der Leyen is not even mentioned at all in May's bio and the three references to him in Swafford don't amount to much. *Nothing survives of the many letters that Brahms wrote that echos that paragraph.* Swafford mentions in his bio of Beethoven the shenanigans that Anton Schlinder perpetuated concerning the maestro. And herein lies the same issue: the problem with Von der Leyen's story is a lack of collaboration. OTOH, we have Brahms own admission that he wanted nothing to do with John 3:16 or anything like it when it came to the Requiem. How curious to omit THAT for a man who who supposedly believed his abilities came from the same powers that made miracles.
> 
> If you believe that a Palestinian preacher who has been dead for 2000 years will make you a better composer then by all means have at it. I'll stick with Beethoven's own admonishment:
> 
> "O Man, help yourself!"


"Straight-away the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies, and orchestration."

There are many more references of Brahms using the name of God.


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## Room2201974

1996D said:


> "Straight-away the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies, and orchestration."
> 
> There are many more references of Brahms using the name of God.


Where did Brahms write this? Please give me a citation. It's a quote that's all over the Internet, and if true, MUST be able to be cited back to his own hand. In what letter? In what book?

Interesting that the great bios of Brahms from Swafford and May make no mention of this quote.


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## 1996D

Room2201974 said:


> Where did Brahms write this? Please give me a citation. It's a quote that's all over the Internet, and if true, MUST be able to be cited back to his own hand. In what letter? In what book?
> 
> Interesting that the great bios of Brahms from Swafford and May make no mention of this quote.


It's whether you trust a modernist biographer whose goal is to make money, or the people who lived alongside composers. All great composers were Christians, traditionally practising or not, that's a fact.

Composing is an intuitive process that brings the composer closer to God, and any that is not doing that is destined to wallow in mediocrity.

Naming a piece a Christian name can be an extra step towards program music, or as shown here in some examples, a way to desecrate Christianity by inverting its spiritual meaning.


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## Adam Bodlack

I am a Christian and do compose instrumental works aimed to glorify God. I recently released an album titled "Walk With Me" inspired by God's working and guidance in my life.

Feel free to listen at the following links - perhaps it may resonate with your walk.






If you don't have a spotify account you can listen on youtube

https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l-vAUELAHB7QNINjYXPnT1xSPFdiAZMNk

Cheers


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## Room2201974

During what turned out to be a remarkable collaboration for the premiere of Ein deutsches Requiem, Brahms and Reinthaler had only one recorded disagreement. Besides being a respected conductor, organist, and composer, Reinthaler had studied theology. One detail of the Requiem rather troubled his religious sensibility: somehow the piece never gets around to mentioning Jesus Christ. Reinthaler wrote Brahms an earnest and carefully reasoned entreaty to address this little oversight.

"Forgive me, but I wondered if it might not be possible to extend the work in some way that would bring it closer to a Good Friday service.… In this composition you stand not only on religious but also certainly on Christian ground. The second movement, for example, touches on the prophecy of the Lord's return, and in the penultimate movement the mystery of the resurrection of the dead.… But what is lacking, at least for a Christian consciousness, is the pivotal point: the salvation in the death of our Lord. "If Christ is not raised, your faith is vain," said St. Paul in connection with a passage you used. Now it would be easy to find, near "O death, where is thy sting," a suitable place.…" He continued, in high theological mode.

Brahms was not about to put up with that sort of thing. He was a humanist and an agnostic, and his requiem was going to express that, Reinthaler or no. Fix oder nix, as the old Frauenchor motto ran-up to the mark or nothing. With the title A German Requiem he intended to convey that this is not the liturgical requiem mass in Latin, nor a German translation of it, but a personal testament, a requiem. Brahms avoided dogma in the piece for the same reason. He fashioned an inwardly spiritual work, full of echoes of religious music going back hundreds of years, yet there is no bowing to the altar or smell of incense in it. Even if the words come from the Bible, this was his response to death as a secular, skeptical, modern man. Brahms responded to Reinthaler politely but unequivocally:

"As far as the text is concerned, I confess that I would gladly omit even the word German and instead use Human; also with my best knowledge and will I would dispense with places like John 3:16. On the other hand, I have chosen one thing or another because I am a musician, because I needed it, and because with my venerable authors I can't delete or dispute anything. But I had better stop before I say too much."

He had already said a good deal. The verse he tells Reinthaler he would "dispense with" is none other than "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Brahms means that he could do without that verse and that dogma, in Ein deutsches Requiem and in his life. If he was North German Protestant by tradition and temperament, he was not that in his faith, which like all his convictions Brahms held close to his chest. For himself he would not call Christ a particular son of God. Meanwhile, to Reinthaler he downplays the theology of some verses he does use, saying "I can't delete or dispute anything" from Scripture. With that he obliquely confesses that even the hints of resurrection lingering in his texts are not his own sentiments. At the end of his Requiem the dead are not reborn but released: "they rest from their labors." It is that rest from his own lonely labors that Brahms yearned for someday, as his mother rested from her life of poverty and toil.

************

The above is from Jan Swafford's bio, chapter 13, _They Who Mourn_. I see nothing in Brahms own hand where he believed, as quoted above, in Jesus being the inspiration for his compositional abilities.


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## 1996D

^ That's from the 1860s. Rudolf von der Leyen knew him from 1880 until his death in 97 and wrote the book about Brahms as a person and friend in 1905 - extremely reliable source.


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## Room2201974

1996D said:


> ^ That's from the 1860s. Rudolf von der Leyen knew him from 1880 until his death in 97 and wrote the book about Brahms as a person and friend in 1905 - extremely reliable source.


The Brahms quote is from his own hand and carries far greater weight than Von der Leyen *unsubstantiated* quote.

No death bed confessions, no death bed preachers, no record of belonging to any church. Yes, yes, that's the way all my Christian friends have lived their life!


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## RICK RIEKERT

"Straight-away the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies, and orchestration."

There are many more references of Brahms using the name of God.



Room2201974 said:


> Where did Brahms write this? Please give me a citation. It's a quote that's all over the Internet, and if true, MUST be able to be cited back to his own hand. In what letter? In what book?
> 
> Interesting that the great bios of Brahms from Swafford and May make no mention of this quote.


Most of the purported quotes from Brahms cited here in various posts are from _Talks With Great Composers_ by one Arthur M. Abell. Starting in 1893 Abell was a Berlin correspondent for the _Musical Courier_. Abell took great pride in his acquaintance with the celebrities of the music world. His reporting for the Courier was mostly in the form of gossip and inside information. His "talks" are presented "verbatim" with Brahms, Puccini, Richard Strauss, Joseph Joachim, Engelbert Humperdinck, Max Bruch, and Edvard Grieg. The composers reveal to Abell "their intellectual, psychic and spiritual experiences while composing." This involves a "semi-trance" during which one never completely loses consciousness. It is described as "a border state, guided by a higher power." The book was published in 1955, long after the composers quoted could confirm or deny their remarks. In the Preface Abell explained that he had delayed publishing because he had promised Brahms to wait fifty years after his death. Despite the dubious content, the book has been translated, reprinted, and continues to be quoted "all over the internet", and in New Age self-help books on various aspects of creative inspiration.

Swafford does not cite Abell's work because at the time of writing his biography he felt like many others that the work was suspect. I quote from Swafford: "I'm writing a book on Brahms so was also duly excited a few years ago when I first ran across the Abell. But one quickly gets suspicious, for all kinds of reasons. The common wisdom is that it's a fraud. Still, somebody ought to do some sleuthing about the whole thing. Abell did know Brahms and Joachim and the other composers apparently, and did
write a shorter, vaguer account of a Brahms interview back in the 30s--without the spiritualistic stuff. The best guess is that he cooked up his later "interview" from a few things Brahms told him, more things Joachim told him, and added some plugs for his own beliefs."


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## 1996D

Room2201974 said:


> The Brahms quote is from his own hand and carries far greater weight than Von der Leyen *unsubstantiated* quote.
> 
> No death bed confessions, no death bed preachers, no record of belonging to any church. Yes, yes, that's the way all my Christian friends have lived their life!


Read the book, it's genuine, much more so than a biography written by a man who was born after Brahms died. The true essence of Brahms was experienced by von der Leyen, it's not some assumption by a modernist composer who also happens to be an atheist.


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## Room2201974

1996D said:


> Read the book, it's genuine, much more so than a biography written by a man who was born after Brahms died. The true essence of Brahms was experienced by von der Leyen, it's not some assumption by a modernist composer who also happens to be an atheist.


Unsubstantiated still. Should I quote you directly on any matter, or should I quote *Woodduck* or *Strange Magic* citing you talking about that matter????

Brahms words are the final word on this matter. And Dvorak's words are there in support of the position that Brahms was not a believer. Dvorak, the great composer who didn't need to try to make money writing a book about his friend, unlike Von der Leyen. Cui bono!


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## Room2201974

RICK RIEKERT said:


> "Straight-away the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies, and orchestration."
> 
> There are many more references of Brahms using the name of God.
> 
> Most of the purported quotes from Brahms cited here in various posts are from _Talks With Great Composers_ by one Arthur M. Abell. Starting in 1893 Abell was a Berlin correspondent for the _Musical Courier_. Abell took great pride in his acquaintance with the celebrities of the music world. His reporting for the Courier was mostly in the form of gossip and inside information. His "talks" are presented "verbatim" with Brahms, Puccini, Richard Strauss, Joseph Joachim, Engelbert Humperdinck, Max Bruch, and Edvard Grieg. The composers reveal to Abell "their intellectual, psychic and spiritual experiences while composing." This involves a "semi-trance" during which one never completely loses consciousness. It is described as "a border state, guided by a higher power." The book was published in 1955, long after the composers quoted could confirm or deny their remarks. In the Preface Abell explained that he had delayed publishing because he had promised Brahms to wait fifty years after his death. Despite the dubious content, the book has been translated, reprinted, and continues to be quoted "all over the internet", and in New Age self-help books on various aspects of creative inspiration.
> 
> Swafford does not cite Abell's work because at the time of writing his biography he felt like many others that the work was suspect. I quote from Swafford: "I'm writing a book on Brahms so was also duly excited a few years ago when I first ran across the Abell. But one quickly gets suspicious, for all kinds of reasons. The common wisdom is that it's a fraud. Still, somebody ought to do some sleuthing about the whole thing. Abell did know Brahms and Joachim and the other composers apparently, and did
> write a shorter, vaguer account of a Brahms interview back in the 30s--without the spiritualistic stuff. The best guess is that he cooked up his later "interview" from a few things Brahms told him, more things Joachim told him, and added some plugs for his own beliefs."


I was immediately suspicious of the quote because it is very foreign to anything that I have seen written from the maestro himself. So it's really another quote that cannot be found in Brahms hand, yet comes to us from a true believer. Nothing suspicious in that!!!!!!


----------



## Woodduck

There appears to be an unquestioned assumption here that being a "Christian," or believing in "God," or being "religious," means the same thing to everyone, including composers who confess such beliefs. This is ridiculously simplistic - so simplistic as to make nonsense of the idea that only people who confess such notions can produce music of high quality. Any number of people who hold ideas categorizable as "religious" are really skeptics or agnostics, or have quite personal and unorthodox conceptions of what religious terms mean to them. Furthermore, people's religious beliefs change throughout their lives. The image of all the great composers sinking to their knees and asking Jehovah or Jesus or the Blessed Virgin to mail them good ideas via celestial post is absurd. Anybody can stick the name "God" onto anything they can't understand, and in fact that's been the principal use made of that name throughout mankind's history. How better to "explain" artistic inspiration than as God's gift - or a pandemic as God's punishment?

One has to wonder why God would have chosen to give the atheist/skeptic Verdi his_ Requiem_, the atheist Wagner his _Parsifal,_ and the atheist Vaughan Williams a whole procession of glorious "sacred" works. For many people these great heathens composed some of the most profound and powerfully "spiritual" music in existence.


----------



## 1996D

Room2201974 said:


> Unsubstantiated still. Should I quote you directly on any matter, or should I quote *Woodduck* or *Strange Magic* citing you talking about that matter????
> 
> Brahms words are the final word on this matter. And Dvorak's words are there in support of the position that Brahms was not a believer. Dvorak, the great composer who didn't need to try to make money writing a book about his friend, unlike Von der Leyen. Cui bono!


With a name like that I don't think he needed money, but he did know Brahms for 17 years and I doubt he had any reason to lie.


----------



## Bwv 1080




----------



## mikeh375

1996D said:


> .....If anything that quote confirms that biographies are written often full of lies and are not to be trusted unless from truly reliable sources....


No it doesn't. Unfounded judgements as usual.


----------



## tdc

I agree with Woodduck's point that a lack of belief in Christianity, does not necessarily imply a lack of belief in God. I think many people claim to be atheists because they are tired of religion (for this I don't blame them), but deep down many of them likely realize there is a greater intelligence than ourselves.

So many of today's apparent scholars seem to be pushing atheism, but my feeling is that if we actually got to the folks that are largely running this world, they are not atheists, nor are they solipsists, but they like to push these kinds of beliefs on the general public. They get people like Neil deGrasse Tyson to go up and impress you with his scientific knowledge and then tell you there is no God, and you should believe him because he is a scientist and he is smarter than you.

I'm reminded of a conversation between John 'the savage' and Mustapha Mond, in Huxley's _Brave New World_.

John: So you think there is no God? 
Mond: No, I think there quite probably is one.
Mond: But he manifests himself in different ways to different men. In pre-modern times he manifested himself as the being that's described in these books. Now...
John: How does he manifest himself now?
Mond: Well, he manifests himself as an absence; as though he weren't there at all.
John: That's your fault.
Mond: Call it the fault of civilization. God isn't compatible with machinery and scientific medicine and universal happiness. You must make your choice. Our civilization has chosen machinery and medicine and happiness. That's why I have to keep all these books locked up in the safe.

Eerily similar to what we see unfolding today, and the truth is 'happiness' in our world and in Huxley's _Brave New World_, is only possible by doping people up in various ways. And in both cases the art suffers.


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> If anything it confirms your divorce from reality.


We are talking about that precisely, about a person who knew Brahms and was his friend, writing a book on him, versus a modernist atheist composer, handpicking information from the past to forge his own image of Brahms according to his agenda.

You do the same with the world, refusing to accept the reality that Christianity is the power source for all European culture including music, and instead go on your land of relativism, deconstructionism, and modernism, where nothing exists but what you've been taught, and of course your own navel. You're trapped in a box.


----------



## mikeh375

1996D said:


> We are talking about that precisely, about a person who knew Brahms and was his friend, writing a book on him, versus a modernist atheist composer, handpicking information from the past to forge his own image of Brahms according to his agenda.
> 
> *You do the same with the world, refusing to accept the reality that Christianity is the power source for all European culture including music*, and instead go on your land of relativism, deconstructionism, and modernism, where nothing exists but what you've been taught, and of course your own navel. You're trapped in a box.


But the Christian Herald article accepts that great works have been and still are written by non-believers, or non-believers in the dogma you seem to have a soft spot for. That is a reality you might want to consider because it exists.


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> But the Christian Herald article accepts that great works have been and still are written by non-believers, or non-believers in the dogma you seem to have a soft spot for. That is a reality you might want to consider because it exists.


Yet all the greats are Christian, without a shadow of a doubt. You really ought to stop with the modernism, read the Bible, accept the tradition of your homeland, and write music accordingly.

It's over mate, the modernist movement is on its last legs.


----------



## mikeh375

1996D said:


> Yet all the greats are Christian, without a shadow of a doubt. You really ought to stop with the modernism, read the Bible, accept the tradition of your homeland, and write music accordingly.
> 
> *It's over mate, the modernist movement is on its last legs*.


Well I wont deny that every dog has its day, but god _is_ optional for composing and all the evidence, common sense and reason suggests you should accept that. Music doesn't need god.
Whatever art/concert music comes next will still be reliant on good craftsmanship and technique as an underpinning for excellence in creativity so there's no need to be bothered by it.

Btw..Don't forget the greats who aren't Christian.


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Well I wont deny that every dog has its day, but god _is_ optional for composing and all the evidence, common sense and reason suggests you should accept that. Music doesn't need god.
> Whatever art/concert music comes next will still be reliant on good craftsmanship and technique as an underpinning for excellence in creativity so there's no need to be bothered by it.
> 
> Btw..Don't forget the greats who aren't Christian.


It's the opposite, the evidence suggests it's not, not at all optional. You'd have to be a great believer in coincidence to think that there isn't Christianity linking all the great composers. This Brahms quote puts it perfectly "I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their scores, and I assure you Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, for they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene knew that law also, and He proclaimed in 15:4, 'The branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.' No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

God is there, whether you serve him or not is up to you, but he is there.


----------



## Woodduck

1996D said:


> Yet all the greats are Christian, without a shadow of a doubt.
> 
> Christianity is the power source for all European culture including music.


Unfounded assertions both, transparently based on elementary fallacies.

You can demonstrate the first statement only by claiming the right to decide who the "greats" are. Even then the results would be meaningless and would prove nothing, since before the 20th century most people professed Christianity of one sort or another (even if a dodgy and highly dilute sort).

As for the second claim, it fails to consider the importance of the reclaiming of Greek philosophy and the weakening of the grip of Christian dogma and the institution of the church on thought and society. Of course you'll choose to dismiss that as unimportant or deleterious.

If you can't do a better job than you have so far of supporting your narrow view of history and art, you may as well stop repeating it. You're persuading nobody.


----------



## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> Unfounded assertions both, transparently based on elementary fallacies.
> 
> You can demonstrate the first statement only by claiming the right to decide who the "greats" are. Even then the results would be meaningless and would prove nothing, since before the 20th century most people professed Christianity of one sort or another (even if a dodgy and highly dilute sort).
> 
> As for the second claim, it fails to consider the importance of the reclaiming of Greek philosophy and the weakening of the grip of Christian dogma and the institution of the church on thought and society. Of course you'll choose to dismiss that as unimportant or deleterious.
> 
> If you can't do a better job than you have so far of supporting your narrow view of history and art, you may as well stop repeating it. You're persuading nobody.


Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

This concept is documented in 'Talks With Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell.

"In the words of Emanuel Ax, we are given "fascinating glimpses into the innermost thoughts of some of our greatest composers" in this series of intimate and deeply felt conversations between Arthur Abell and Brahms, Puccini, Strauss, Humperdinck, Bruch, and Grieg. And through these revelations, one can understand with greater clarity the essence of genius."

Genius is simply the ability to communicate with God, read the book and you'll draw the same conclusion.


----------



## mikeh375

1996D said:


> It's the opposite, the evidence suggests it's not, not at all optional. You'd have to be a great believer in coincidence to think that there isn't Christianity linking all the great composers. This Brahms quote puts it perfectly "I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their scores, and I assure you Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, for they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene knew that law also, and He proclaimed in 15:4, 'The branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.' No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."
> 
> God is there, whether you serve him or not is up to you, but he is there.


Well if Brahms said so, then it must apply to _all_ composers of alternate beliefs through all time.... 
Belief in god is not a prerequisite to be a great composer as is evidenced by masterpieces in the canon.


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Well if Brahms said so, then it must apply to _all_ composers of alternate beliefs through all time....
> *Belief in god is not a prerequisite to be a great composer *as is evidenced by masterpieces in the canon.


Not only belief but true understanding and connection.

https://www.amazon.ca/Spiritual-Lives-Great-Composers/dp/0310208068

They all had deep spiritual lives, something that you've rejected and is apparent in your music.


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> Not only belief but true understanding and connection.
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/Spiritual-Lives-Great-Composers/dp/0310208068
> 
> They all had deep spiritual lives, something that you've rejected and is apparent in your music.


Ahh I see we are now reverting, I thought we were doing well today.
Well my ears and mind are healthy, trained and unprejudiced. I find that works best for a composer as did funnily enough all of your heroes. You should learn from that, god too if he is giving you your music, especially the training.
btw, I've never said I reject god nor have I said I don't have a spiritual life. However I do reject your immature religious and insidious fanaticism. I suggest you tell your mom to only give you 1 weetabix a day instead of two.
I have to say that for someone who has found god, you are musically lost.


----------



## 1996D

https://www.amazon.ca/Talks-Great-Composers-Arthur-Abell-ebook/dp/B01BPMZUB0

This one is even better, Brahms speaks like an enlightened monk about music, and he's on point about the intuitive process that is composing, couldn't have described it any better.


----------



## DavidA

The dispute over who gave us our values - Christians or Greeks - is hammered out well in this debate between the historian Tom Holland and the philosopher A C Grayling if you are interested


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Ahh I see we are now reverting, I thought we were doing well today.
> Well my ears and mind are healthy, trained and unprejudiced. I find that works best for a composer as did funnily enough all of your heroes. You should learn from that, god too if he is giving you your music, especially the training.
> btw, i've never said I reject god nor have I said I don't have a spiritual life. I do reject your immature religious and insidious fanaticism. I'd suggest you tell your mom to only give you 1 weetabix a day instead of two.


For anyone reading this, it's simple enough to listen to any great composer and compare their music to yours, to see what an atheist composer can do in comparison(you are backtracking now but you've proudly declared yourself an atheist several times).

The evidence is insurmountable, the level you are at is impossibly low, and it is indeed attributable to your atheism, as is the mediocrity of the entire modernist/postmodernist movement.


----------



## mikeh375

1996D said:


> For anyone reading this, it's simple enough to listen to any great composer and compare their music to yours, to see what an atheist composer can do in comparison(you are backtracking now but you've proudly declared yourself an atheist several times).
> 
> *The evidence is insurmountable, we're talking composing at such different levels.*


I don't compare myself to the greats, nor did I claim that i was going to be the next messiah like you did - boy that was fun when you finally posted your 'music' - I'm looking forward to the next instalment. Your god is having fun with you.
re the highlighted above-Well we agree on something. Put a link to your website up for scrutiny and folk can jump to my signature below if they want to hear different levels in action.


----------



## 1996D

Basically work inspired by God and His Bible versus atheism and nihilism.



> I don't compare myself to the greats, nor did I claim that i was going to be the next messiah like you did - boy that was fun when you finally posted your 'music' - I'm looking forward to the next instalment.
> re the highlighted above-Well we agree on something. Put a link to your website up for scrutiny and folk can jump to my signature below if they want to see different levels in action.


What I previously released was music intended to be commercial/accessible to all, and had no godliness to it. it was an experiment to test the market and the standing of contemporary music.


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## mikeh375

that's not your website.....your work is inspired by god right? So let's do a like for like.


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## mikeh375

I'll get the ball rolling then...here's a link to a chaconne of mine from my Partita. Decadent, degenerate, utterly devoid of emotion, spirituality and deserving of hell...

https://we.tl/t-Ao73bmIXrA

you next...


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> I'll get the ball rolling then...here's a link to a chaconne of mine from my Partita. Decadent, degenerate, utterly devoid of emotion, spirituality and deserving of hell...
> 
> https://we.tl/t-Ao73bmIXrA
> 
> you next...


Your site is in your signature with all your music available, there is no need to post anything. Your partita falls apart at the 1:00 min mark and shows a complete lack of inspiration, not unlike what Brahms wrote about atheist composers - it's a perfect example actually of what he said.

In your other works your lack of creativity is just as evident, you can't sustain any clear melodic ideas for more than a few seconds, and the music evolves into nothing - all signs of a lack of creativity.


----------



## Woodduck

1996D said:


> Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
> 
> This concept is documented in 'Talks With Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell.
> 
> "In the words of Emanuel Ax, we are given "fascinating glimpses into the innermost thoughts of some of our greatest composers" in this series of intimate and deeply felt conversations between Arthur Abell and Brahms, Puccini, Strauss, Humperdinck, Bruch, and Grieg. And through these revelations, one can understand with greater clarity the essence of genius."
> 
> Genius is simply the ability to communicate with God, read the book and you'll draw the same conclusion.


Your continual proselytizing for religion is out of place here, 1996D - it's actually disapproved by forum rules - and it's frankly past being obnoxious. It's clear by now that you started this thread as yet another pulpit from which you could try to prove your superiority to all of us benighted heathens. Are you aware that TC has a religion subforum where you wouldn't need to create the pretense of talking about music, and where you could flaunt your knowledge of scripture and testify to your status as God's chosen vessel? Do us a favor and go there. Most of us are interested in the music of composers, not in silly lectures about how God saves the best tunes for those who have the right belief systems.


----------



## mikeh375

1996D said:


> Your site is in your signature with all your music available, there is no need to post anything. Your partita falls apart at the 1:00 mark and shows a complete lack of inspiration, not unlike what Brahms wrote.


You are supposed to post a piece for comparison. Your opinion means nothing and never will in a composer to composer context unless you acquire the necessary chops and ears. Its time to get off your imagined throne and get into the ring.


----------



## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> Your continual proselytizing for religion is out of place here, 1996D - it's actually disapproved by forum rules - and it's frankly past being obnoxious. It's clear by now that you started this thread as yet another pulpit from which you could try to prove your superiority to all of us benighted heathens. Are you aware that TC has a religion subforum where you wouldn't need to create the pretense of talking about music, and where you could flaunt your knowledge of scripture and testify to your status as God's chosen vessel? Do us a favor and go there. Most of us are interested in the music of composers, not in silly lectures about how God saves the best tunes for those who have the right belief systems.


Not at all, I've posted about two books that were previously brought up in this thread 'Talks With Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell, and 'The Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers' by Patrick Kavanaugh.

Both with excellent reviews despite other members doubting them.


----------



## Art Rock

Art Rock said:


> I've downloaded the original text (in German, which I can read), and scanned the pdf (100 pages) twice quickly without finding this quote. I did find other statements about the bible. I'm off to bed now, I will give it one more try tomorrow.


This work is based on personal encounters of the author with Brahms and correspondence (which is quoted). Interesting passages relevant to this thread:

page 29/30: Brahms on Bismarck's speeches and letters: "What he tells me is sufficient, that's what I believe".
page 31: words by the author about Brahms: "So it was obvious that his inner soul longed daily for the words of the Holy Book, the clear source from which millions have always found satisfaction. What would art be without this eternally young Book of all books?"
Page 31/32: Brahms speaking about Schumann, who had asked for a bible while in the hospital (and was refused initially): "These people simply did not know that we, from the North of Germany, long for the bible every day and cannot do a day without it. In my study I can find the bible in the dark."
Page 42: Brahms quoted about Rosmini, a 'theologist and philosopher': "Both, theologist and philosopher, is impossible, a theologist can never be a philosopher".

I could not find the quote used by the OP that allegedly comes from this book. If it is in there, I missed it all three times.

By the way, I only jumped in because Brahms interests me, and it was fun to read more about him (assuming of course that it is all real). I have no interest in the current discussion, which for many reasons is a complete waste of time.


----------



## Woodduck

1996D said:


> Your site is in your signature with all your music available, there is no need to post anything. Your partita falls apart at the 1:00 mark and shows a complete lack of inspiration, not unlike what Brahms wrote about atheist composers - it's perfect example actually of what he said - it's appropriate that you post it following that quote.
> 
> In your other works your lack of creativity is just as blatant, you can't sustain any clear melodic ideas for more than a few seconds, and the music evolves into nothing.


I found Mike's partita beautifully crafted and heart-warming. Its swaying rhythm, overlapping modally tinged tonalities, and contrapuntal complexities held my interest throughout. It's a fine realization of its material's potential, and most certainly not lacking in inspiration. Your assertion that Mike "can't sustain any clear melodic ideas for more than a few seconds" is bizarrely inapplicable to this lovely, melodious piece. Neither, by the way, does it apply to his violin sonata which I listened to some time ago.

If these remarks represent your typical level of musical judgment, I can perhaps understand better why that piece of yours I heard - the one supposed to evoke Plato's _Republic _- was so uninspiring and unmemorable (except for a generalized memory of murkiness, which I found oppressive at the time and which doesn't tempt me to return to it). Perhaps you have something better - something, say, as engaging as Mike's partita - that you'd let us hear, so that we can judge the quality of_ your _inspiration?

I'm curious: how did you acquire such an inflated opinion of your own understandings, Mr. D., and such a thoroughly unwarranted scorn for others? Sad to say, I have encountered no one on this forum whose pronouncements on virtually everything strike me as so presumptuous, pretentious, and lacking in value.


----------



## 1996D

Art Rock said:


> This work is based on personal encounters of the author with Brahms and correspondence (which is quoted). Interesting passages relevant to this thread:
> 
> page 29/30: Brahms on Bismarck's speeches and letters: "What he tells me is sufficient, that's what I believe".
> page 31: words by the author about Brahms: "So it was obvious that his inner soul longed daily for the words of the Holy Book, the clear source from which millions have always found satisfaction. What would art be without this eternally young Book of all books?"
> Page 31/32: Brahms speaking about Schumann, who had asked for a bible while in the hospital (and was refused initially): "These people simply did not know that we, from the North of Germany, long for the bible every day and cannot do a day without it. In my study I can find the bible in the dark."
> Page 42: Brahms quoted about Rosmini, a 'theologist and philosopher': "Both, theologist and philosopher, is impossible, a theologist can never be a philosopher".
> 
> I could not find the quote used by the OP that allegedly comes from this book. If it is in there, I missed it all three times.
> 
> By the way, I only jumped in because Brahms interests me, and it was fun to read more about him (assuming of course that it is all real). I have no interest in the current discussion, which for many reasons is a complete waste of time.


It may have instead been from a conversation Brahms had with Arthur M. Abell documented in his book 'Talks With Great Composers'; the source I found said it came from _Als mensch und Freude_ but it might have been wrong. The quote is all over the internet and is mentioned in many books.

For anyone who wants to check the books are all available in PDF online, at the very least in preview version.


----------



## 1996D

Woodduck said:


> I found Mike's partita beautifully crafted and heart-warming. Its swaying rhythm, overlapping modally tinged tonalities, and contrapuntal complexities held my interest throughout. It's a fine realization of its material's potential, and most certainly not lacking in inspiration. Your assertion that Mike "can't sustain any clear melodic ideas for more than a few seconds" is bizarrely inapplicable to this lovely, melodious piece. Neither, by the way, does it apply to his violin sonata which I listened to some time ago.
> 
> If these remarks represent your typical level of musical judgment, I can perhaps understand better why that piece of yours I heard - the one supposed to evoke Plato's _Republic _- was so uninspiring and unmemorable (except for a generalized memory of murkiness, which I found oppressive at the time and which doesn't tempt me to return to it). Perhaps you have something better - something, say, as engaging as Mike's partita - that you'd let us hear, so that we can judge the quality of_ your _inspiration?
> 
> I'm curious: how did you acquire such an inflated opinion of your own understandings, Mr. D., and such a thoroughly unwarranted scorn for others? Sad to say, I have encountered no one on this forum whose pronouncements on virtually everything strike me as so presumptuous, pretentious, and lacking in value.


Everyone can read your nasty, mean spirited comments in this thread, and see your bitterness. You should keep in mind how you're coming across, but to me it's no surprise, you have shown time and time again who you are.

I will remain patient, because ultimately you cause no threat and there is little significance to what you write.


----------



## mikeh375

Woodduck said:


> I found Mike's partita beautifully crafted and heart-warming. Its swaying rhythm, overlapping modally tinged tonalities, and contrapuntal complexities held my interest throughout. It's a fine realization of its material's potential, and most certainly not lacking in inspiration. Your assertion that Mike "can't sustain any clear melodic ideas for more than a few seconds" is bizarrely inapplicable to this lovely, melodious piece. Neither, by the way, does it apply to his violin sonata which I listened to some time ago.
> 
> If these remarks represent your typical level of musical judgment, I can perhaps understand better why that piece of yours I heard - the one supposed to evoke Plato's _Republic _- was so uninspiring and unmemorable (except for a generalized memory of murkiness, which I found oppressive at the time and which doesn't tempt me to return to it). Perhaps you have something better - something, say, as engaging as Mike's partita - that you'd let us hear, so that we can judge the quality of_ your _inspiration?
> 
> I'm curious: how did you acquire such an inflated opinion of your own understandings, Mr. D., and such a thoroughly unwarranted scorn for others? Sad to say, I have encountered no one on this forum whose pronouncements on virtually everything strike me as so presumptuous, pretentious, and lacking in value.


Thanks Woodduck, that is very nice of you to say so and it is most appreciated.
I can only be told I'm a degenerate, talentless navel gazer so many times and decided to try and put the record straight, at least for any onlookers. Whether one likes the Chacconne or loathes it, it objectively refutes everything 1996d has said about me and there are more tonal pieces where that came from on my site.

Ironically, 1996d seems to have me down as a modernist when in fact I'm very conservative as any composer here will attest if they've heard my music, although I am a keen fan of modernism. I am also academically trained and that too seems to be a problem for him which is understandable given he doesn't have any training and/or has deemed it unnecessary because of his faith. Well, it _is_ necessary if anything is to be done well in art/concert music. He'd do well to understand that.

As you know, only a very few are gifted a genius level talent (and 1996d is not one of them),but for the rest of us, being the best we can be is good enough in life and art and that does not necessarily require a god. It does however require sustained hard work, study and practise because faith and serendipity alone are not enough for composing. He'd do well to understand that too.


----------



## millionrainbows

Woodduck said:


> Sad to say, I have encountered no one on this forum whose pronouncements on virtually everything strike me as so presumptuous, pretentious, and lacking in value.


Really? My feelings are hurt.


----------



## Woodduck

millionrainbows said:


> Really? My feelings are hurt.


It was a tough call - if that makes you feel better. :tiphat:


----------



## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Thanks Woodduck, that is very nice of you to say so and it is most appreciated.
> I can only be told I'm a degenerate, talentless navel gazer so many times and decided to try and put the record straight, at least for any onlookers. Whether one likes the Chacconne or loathes it, it objectively refutes everything 1996d has said about me and there are more tonal pieces where that came from on my site.
> 
> Ironically, 1996d seems to have me down as a modernist when in fact I'm very conservative as any composer here will attest if they've heard my music, although I am a keen fan of modernism. I am also academically trained and that too seems to be a problem for him which is understandable given he doesn't have any training and/or has deemed it unnecessary because of his faith. Well, it _is_ necessary if anything is to be done well in art/concert music. He'd do well to understand that.
> 
> As you know, only a very few are gifted a genius level talent (and 1996d is not one of them),but for the rest of us, being the best we can be is good enough in life and art and that does not necessarily require a god. It does however require sustained hard work, study and practise because faith and serendipity alone are not enough for composing. He'd do well to understand that too.


You're writing lie after lie, but at least you wrote something tonal, so that's progress.

Your level is low and it proves the point that I was trying to make, about the lack of inspiration that comes with atheism - there is simply nothing to write about. This lack of creativity is widely seen in the contemporary movement, and as such it has lost its audience.

I hope that you can put your ego aside and compare your work to those who were greatly inspired by Christ; Bach, who you create pastiches of, composed to get closer to God and only to do so.

Your music is devoid of meaning because of the nihilism of your life.


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## JAS

mikeh375 said:


> I don't compare myself to the greats, nor did I claim that i was going to be the next messiah like you did - boy that was fun when you finally posted your 'music' - I'm looking forward to the next instalment. Your god is having fun with you.
> re the highlighted above-Well we agree on something. Put a link to your website up for scrutiny and folk can jump to my signature below if they want to hear different levels in action.


I would not necessarily run out and buy the CD, but I must say that it reminds me a bit of Marin Marais. Perhaps it is the overall tone.


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## Barbebleu

Isn’t there something about the devil having all the best tunes?:devil:


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## 1996D

Barbebleu said:


> Isn't there something about the devil having all the best tunes?:devil:


Mike would be the best in the word if that were true, he blasphemes God at every opportunity.


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## Woodduck

1996D said:


> Everyone can read your nasty, mean spirited comments in this thread, and see your bitterness. You should keep in mind how you're coming across, but to me it's no surprise, you have shown time and time again who you are.
> 
> I will remain patient, because ultimately you cause no threat and there is little significance to what you write.


Yes, eveyone can read. They can read supercilious nonsense such as the following:



> I wonder which works had a Christian inspiration with nothing in the name to suggest it; they would be the opposite of Messiaen's.
> 
> The death of light indeed... Who are these guys your high school buddies?
> 
> They can claim whatever they want, they don't have faith. Look at what the person does not what he/she claims.
> 
> The good thing is that nobody listens to it.
> 
> Make music from your heart to the Lord. This might be music from her rotting heart, but it's certainly not going to the Lord.
> 
> If you want to make a thread about inversion and occultism in music then go ahead.
> 
> Very disturbing music, definitely not something conducive to leading a virtuous life. The man was disturbed, his wife died in a sanatorium, and he most likely put her there.
> 
> Until a Christian scholar makes a compelling argument stating otherwise, Messiaen was a degenerate; that's where sound intuition leads to.
> 
> Ironically enough these pieces are filled with nihilism...
> 
> For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. You can write a thousand excuses for an action or you can simplify and see thing bluntly, as they are.
> 
> There is no 'diverse way' to express Christianity; they might have expressed their religious beliefs but it certainly wasn't Christianity as taught in the Bible, thus why I suggested that a thread be started about inversion and occultism in music.
> 
> If you don't know the Bible there is nothing to discuss here.
> 
> You're projecting your fears, always, and are running away from truth. If only you knew the Bible and understood it, there would be no problem here, but you are forever in rebellion.
> 
> Many of the works listed here are an inversion of everything that's Christian, very much like Schoenberg's Moses und Aron is of historical Judaism.
> 
> You came to my thread and all you do is project, almost as a cry for help. I already told that you can get your help through the Bible; there is not much more to say.
> 
> You don't know Christ, you insult him at every opportunity.
> 
> Although it's highly doubtful that an atheist would be capable of writing Christian music, the top composers were all of the faith.
> 
> There is no evidence of Verdi not believing.
> 
> All great composers were Christians, traditionally practising or not, that's a fact.
> 
> Composing is an intuitive process that brings the composer closer to God, and any that is not doing that is destined to wallow in mediocrity.
> 
> Naming a piece a Christian name can be an extra step towards program music, or as shown here in some examples, a way to desecrate Christianity by inverting its spiritual meaning.
> 
> You do the same with the world, refusing to accept the reality that Christianity is the power source for all European culture including music, and instead go on your land of relativism, deconstructionism, and modernism, where nothing exists but what you've been taught, and of course your own navel. You're trapped in a box.
> 
> You really ought to stop with the modernism, read the Bible, accept the tradition of your homeland, and write music accordingly.
> 
> God is there, whether you serve him or not is up to you, but he is there.
> 
> Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. This concept is documented in 'Talks With Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell.
> 
> Genius is simply the ability to communicate with God.
> 
> They all had deep spiritual lives, something that you've rejected and is apparent in your music.
> 
> The evidence is insurmountable, the level you are at is impossibly low, and it is indeed attributable to your atheism.
> 
> Your partita falls apart at the 1:00 min mark and shows a complete lack of inspiration, not unlike what Brahms wrote about atheist composers - it's a perfect example actually of what he said.
> 
> In your other works your lack of creativity is just as evident, you can't sustain any clear melodic ideas for more than a few seconds, and the music evolves into nothing - all signs of a lack of creativity.
> 
> Mike would be the best in the word if that were true, he blasphemes God at every opportunity.
> 
> You're writing lie after lie, but at least you wrote something tonal, so that's progress.
> 
> Your level is low and it proves the point that I was trying to make, about the lack of inspiration that comes with atheism - there is simply nothing to write about. This lack of creativity is widely seen in the contemporary movement, and as such it has lost its audience.
> 
> I hope that you can put your ego aside and compare your work to those who were greatly inspired by Christ; Bach, who you create pastiches of, composed to get closer to God and only to do so.
> 
> Your music is devoid of meaning because of the nihilism of your life.


The foregoing encompasses the bulk of your contribution to this, your own thread, which you erroneously title *"Religious Music Without Lyrics."* A better title would be *"Religious Hogwash Without Music."* I'm sure there's more of the like to come. Much more.

There must be a street corner or subway station where you can propagate this stuff without being hauled away by the police.


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> You're writing lie after lie, but at least you wrote something tonal, so that's progress.
> 
> Your level is low and it proves the point that I was trying to make, about the lack of inspiration that comes with atheism - there is simply nothing to write about. This lack of creativity is widely seen in the contemporary movement, and as such it has lost its audience.
> 
> I hope that you can put your ego aside and compare your work to those who were greatly inspired by Christ; Bach, who you create pastiches of, composed to get closer to God and only to do so.
> 
> Your music is devoid of meaning because of the nihilism of your life.


There is no proof of of the sort in listening to music, mine or anyone else. But in your case there is ample proof of a wannabe composer with closed luddite ears to music with more than 4 notes in its harmony and a brain with critical judgement addled by delusion after delusion. What was it David, a failed music school audition that turned you green, was it the aural test that flummoxed you?


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> There is no proof of of the sort in listening to music, mine or anyone else. But in your case there is ample proof of a wannabe composer with closed luddite ears to music with more than 4 notes in its harmony and a brain with critical judgement addled by delusion after delusion. What was it David, a failed music school audition that turned you green, was it the aural test that flummoxed you?


What are you on about? I released a few pieces to test what the market was for music and to see how the whole process could work.

There was no time put into that music, it took me an hour to write the two short songs and they were sold for a brief period.


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## Manxfeeder

Barbebleu said:


> Isn't there something about the devil having all the best tunes?:devil:


It is interesting that Mr. Luther took a song about crying in your milk about a girl and turned it into the Passion Chorale. I'd say that's quite a step up for that tune. :tiphat: Or else it's putting lipstick on a cow.


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## mikeh375

David...1996D....Your incompetence at orchestration, melody and every other aspect of music making was clear to hear and unfortunately didn't even have the virtue of brevity, instead the incessant melodic fumbling and appalling sense of line contributed admirably to an interminable few minutes.
It is painfully clear to anyone who knows about music composition that you and your co-writer need to get your head down if you are to make anything of your own ability because at present, there are 18 yo kids with DAWs doing much better than you - millions of them. I've tried to help you in the past and even offered a friendly exchange of ideas during our PM's that where rejected but the gloves are off now because your arrogance is attacking my person of which you know nothing. 

I'll keep this up for as long as it takes because you are intolerable in your attitude and a terrible representative for your God.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> David...1996D....Your incompetence at orchestration, melody and every other aspect of music making was clear to hear and unfortunately didn't even have the virtue of brevity, instead the incessant melodic fumbling and appalling sense of line contributed admirably to an interminable few minutes.
> It is painfully clear to anyone who knows about music composition that you and your co-writer need to get your head down if you are to make anything of your own ability because at present, there are 18 yo kids with DAWs doing much better than you - millions of them. I've tried to help you in the past and even offered a friendly exchange of ideas during our PM's that where rejected but the gloves are off now because your arrogance is attacking my person of which you know nothing.
> 
> I'll keep this up for as long as it takes because you are intolerable in your attitude and a terrible representative for your God.


Can not you not read? That was the intention, to create accessible music for the public and test its marketability. It was for sale at a website for a time and that helped me judge what the market was. There are many ways to release music with distributors, so it needed to be tested and still needs to be further tested.

Unfortunately the virus cane shorty after, so I'll have to wait.


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## mikeh375

Yes, very noble and artistic of you. What's God's cut? Is he the producer or co-writer? How nice of you to write appallingly for the masses. We have very different definitions of accessible are you sure you don't mean risible K522? erm 1996d ..David.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Yes, very noble and artistic of you. What's God's cut? How nice of you to write appallingly for the masses. We have very different definitions of accessible are you sure you don't mean risible K522? erm David.


It did sell, that was the intention. Considering the time it took it was a worthy endeavour and I saw what the possibilities were, considering the current state of music.

I haven't tried releasing with distribution companies and on streaming services, so that's next.


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## mikeh375

What did you make, a few dollars from the con? You'll have to go some to match what I sold in my career. I'd wish you luck but you've got no chance whatsoever even if you mature and learn your craft. Then there's that delightful personality of yours...


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> What did you make, a few dollars from the con? You'll have to go some to match what I sold in my career. I'd wish you luck but you've got no chance whatsoever even if you mature and learn your craft. Then there's that delightful personality of yours...


You're a television composer right, for commercials or infomercials?


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## mikeh375

Yes, and some drama and a few films and proud that I worked with the finest players in England. You don't get near them if you don't know your onions so don't expect a conductor to come begging for the right to conduct your world shattering premier until you do know what you are doing. Even then, given the probable ineffective paucity of idea in your music, you'll struggle. 
You talk about speed writing, well I was one of the fastest in the industry and all done competently and musically without technical compromise and on time, unlike your few dollars money grab.
From a musical pov you are on very shaky ground by comparison. The difference between us is not god, its competency. You know this, but hide behind cowardly crusading slander and I've had enough of it.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> Yes, and some drama and a few films and proud that I worked with the finest players in England. You don't get near them if you don't know your onions so don't expect a conductor to come begging for the right to conduct your world shattering premier until you do. Even then, given the probable ineffective paucity of idea in your music, you'll struggle.
> You talk about speed writing, well I was one of the fastest in the industry and all done competently and musically without technical compromise and on time, unlike your money grab.
> From a musical pov you are on very shaky ground by comparison. The difference between us is not god, its competency. You know this, but hide behind cowardly crusading slander and I've had enough of it.


I genuinely didn't mean it in a bad way, it was just a question.


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## mikeh375

1996D said:


> I genuinely didn't mean it in a bad way, it was just a question.


I don't care. 
The worst thing I could possibly say to a wannabe composer would be to tell them they have closed ears.
You have got closed ears and a closed mind and together they have and will continue, to hinder your progress. I'll say again, you may have found god, but you've lost your artistic potential in doing so. I hope he/she is worth the frustration you will feel as you busk along, fumbling for that second semibreve in a tune that will surely become an international concert hall hit when the canon of the 20thC falls under the sword.


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> I don't care.
> The worst thing I could possibly say to a wannabe composer would be to tell them they have closed ears.
> You have got closed ears and a closed mind and together they have and will continue, to hinder your progress. I'll say again, you may have found god, but you've lost your artistic potential in doing so. I hope he/she is worth the frustration you will feel.


Oh come on Mike...


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## 1996D

All I did was try to get you to see the reasons why the music of the past was so much better, and why music is in its current state. Love your neighbour as you love yourself, that was the principle.

It bothered me that you were such a lively debater yet wrote such music; you showed more creativity in your responses.


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## Strange Magic

A very great deal of what has puzzled me about 1996D's posts has been cleared up within and by this thread.


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## mikeh375

1996d..touting opinion as a fact doesn't work, surely you get this now and your cloth ears negate just about all of your bile anyway. Enough is enough. You and God go play together and I'll continue with my own work and charitable life. If you cast utterly unfounded aspersions on my character again I will hit back at you in unrelenting fashion.


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## 1996D

Strange Magic said:


> A very great deal of what has puzzled me about 1996D's posts has been cleared up within and by this thread.


I didn't know you were puzzled. But I have to say that many of the ideas of this thread are just occurring to me, I'm as we speak reading 'Talks with Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell.

The Brahms conversation is absolutely fascinating.


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## hammeredklavier

millionrainbows said:


> Really? My feelings are hurt.


Awww.. Don't feel so bad.. You just have to try harder from now on, MR. MR


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## 1996D

mikeh375 said:


> 1996d..touting opinion as a fact doesn't work, surely you get this now and your cloth ears negate just about all of your bile anyway. Enough is enough. You and God go play together and I'll continue with my own work and charitable life. If you cast utterly unfounded aspersions on me again I will hit back at you in unrelenting fashion.


We've been writing to each other for years now, I know you quite well.


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## 1996D

1996D said:


> I didn't know you were puzzled. But I have to say that many of the ideas of this thread are just occurring to me, I'm as we speak reading 'Talks with Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell.
> 
> The Brahms conversation is absolutely fascinating.


It's Brahms & Joachim with a previous conversation he had with Tennyson being detailed, and then in turn Tennyson's one with Darwin. Verses from the New Testament all throughout, with specific mention of Jesus' own words.

It's all there, so many ideas I previously thought of are so openly discussed by these great men. Tennyson had the truth a long time ago, what a man, he makes the link between science and religion with ease.


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## Strange Magic

1996D said:


> I didn't know you were puzzled. But I have to say that many of the ideas of this thread are just occurring to me, I'm as we speak reading 'Talks with Great Composers' by Arthur M. Abell.
> 
> The Brahms conversation is absolutely fascinating.


Curious about Arthur Abell and his book, I did a little googling and came up with a very few tiny nuggets:

"I'm writing a book on Brahms so was also duly excited a few years ago when I first ran across the Abell. But one quickly gets suspicious, for all kinds of reasons. The common wisdom is that it's a fraud.

Still, somebody ought to do some sleuthing about the whole thing. Abell did know Brahms and Joachim and the other composers apparently, and did write a shorter, vaguer account of a Brahms interview back in the 30s--without the spiritualistic stuff. The best guess is that he cooked up his later "interview" from a few things Brahms told him, more things Joachim told him, and added some plugs for his own beliefs.

Anybody out there have some solid info?"

Jan Swafford

And this, by Sanna Pederson, Professor of Musicology, University of Oklahoma

"Abell's chief claim to notoriety lies with his book Talks With Great Composers: Candid Conversations with Brahms, Puccini, Strauss and Others (Philosophical Library, 1955). His "talks" are presented "verbatim" with Brahms, Puccini, Richard Strauss, Joseph Joachim, Engelbert Humperdinck, Max Bruch, and Edvard Grieg. These artists reveal to Abell "their intellectual, psychic and spiritual experiences while composing." This involves a "semi-trance" in which one never completely loses consciousness. It is described as "a border state, guided by a higher power." Abell also relates Tennyson's views on creation and Darwin's understanding of the immortal soul, courtesy of Joseph Joachim's recollection of their exact words, transcribed by Abell "with the help of a bilingual stenographer."

The book was published in 1955, long after the composers quoted could confirm or deny their remarks. In the Preface Abell explained that he had delayed publishing because he had promised Brahms to wait fifty years after his death. Despite the dubious content, the book has been translated, reprinted, and continues to be quoted in New Age self-help books on various aspects of creative inspiration."


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## 1996D

It's not Brahms that impressed me, it's Tennyson.

I know Darwin's work, everything about that segment is accurate. The conversation between Tennyson and Darwin is something impossible to fraud.


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## mmsbls

This thread is now full of personal comments, few of which are positive. Almost all of the content should be taken offline into PMs or the Groups. Please stop commenting on each other

Further, TC has areas to talk about religious music and religion in music. Neither of those areas are appropriate for discussing the effect of God or religious belief on music - that is pure religion and we do not wish to see such comments on the main forum. If such comments (personal or religious) continue, we will close the thread.


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## Taggart

Thread closed pending moderator discussion.


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