# For Mahler lovers - which is your LEAST favourite Mahler symphony?



## Bruce Morrison (Mar 8, 2010)

I love most of Mahler's music but, regarding the symphonies, the one I really don't get on with is the eighth. I find most of it just too relentlessly "in your face" with no light and shade. The only passage I really like is the purely orchestral section at the start of Part 2, which has a wonderful mysterious quality. But overall, the eighth is the one Mahler symphony that I could do without.

So which one is your least favourite? BTW, I would include the Cooke completion of the 10th symphony in the list.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

The eighth has some nice moments but generally I agree with your assessment. I read that Mahler envisioned the 8th or _Symphony of a Thousand_ to be something along the lines of Beethoven's 9th where the soloists, chorus, pipe organ, and bombast just work to create a musical vision of heaven's gates opening up. While I don't mind the first _Veni Creator Spiritus_ part so much, by the second _Faust_ movement I'm ready to say enough is enough; but all-in-all, that's what happens when you throw in everything but the kitchen sink (or even including the kitchen sink). It's like anything else, you can only put so many decorations on the Christmas Tree or else you can't see the tree.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Same here with the 8th. It just seems like a square peg in a round hole when Mahler's symphonic cycle is taken as a whole. I think Mahler's music was better at aiming for the stars rather than actually being amongst them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, shall we all pile on the poor 8th? OK, I agree with everyone else so far. That beast has to be performed stupendously, with uniformly great vocal soloists, for me to want to sit through it. Except for the 2nd symphony, "Resurrection," which IMO works much better than the 8th, I like Mahler best when he's intimate, as in _Das Lied_ and the songs, and in slow movements.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

No particular order: 3, 7, 8


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The term "Mahler lovers" gives me pause, because I'm kind of burned out on Mahler and trying to rekindle the flame. But for two years I was a diehard fan. 

Anyway, as to the 8th, I usually stop at the first half.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The fourth. I just never liked it much. I think in the 8th Mahler just tried to cram in too much.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Here is the thing with me, whenever I hear any Mahler symph. with CSO/Solti I become a Mahler fan. I think with Mahler the orchestra sound and conductors interpretation matters a lot. 
I know many swear by Bernstein on Mahler, and thats for a good reason too. Best is to listen to Mahler with different orchestra/conductor settings in my opinion.

For me there isn’t any Mahler symph I dislike, just that I like more the non vocal symphs. thats all. The 5th is my top fav.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Is it negative energy release time to stay mentally healthy? 

I love Mahler's music in general, but have little love for No. 2, a piece of long-winded, self-indulgent, utterly chuunibyou, theatrical cry without pain. It’s like watching Neymar doing a quadruple axel, horizontally on the grass of course, rather than in the air. Entertaining it might be, but I'm afraid I don’t find it sincere enough to take it seriously.

Well, you asked.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

It's still 8. No change from the other thread. Even Boulez couldn't turn it around for me.


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## Rambler (Oct 20, 2017)

I'm sure I read a critic say that the 8th was one of the greatest failures in music - meaning (I think) that whilst a great piece of music it failed to fully work. That's certainly my view.

The 3rd Symphony has never quite clicked with me, but maybe I haven't found a good recording of it. 

The 5th is a problem due to over familiarity - it being a favourite of a friend I've been to too many concerts that feature the work.

The 7th is a symphony whose sound world is particularly appealing - up until the last movement. This last movement makes an impressive noise - and I can wallow in that - but it somehow feels unsatisfactory. 

I guess I'm going to say the 3rd is my least favourite.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Probably Das Lied followed closely by a tie between the 6th and 7th (that d***d mandolin!). The 8th, however, is securely in the upper half of my list.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

The 4th and maybe the 7th. I rarely listen to the 7th, compared to my somewhat regular listening of the 4th, but I tend to prefer the former. 

I stick pretty close to the Wunderhorn era lately, occasionally listening to the brilliant 1st movement of the 9th symphony which is my favorite single piece in Mahler's repertoire - and since it's so long and fairly self-contained I have no problem treating it as a standalone work just as I do with the Totenfeier movement.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

"least favorite" is a little too negative for me...I love them all, some more than others....I probably listen to #4 less often than the others generally...but it's a wonderful and challenging work to play!! 
I don't often listen to mvts IV and V of #3 or the inner mvts of #7
#9, then 5,6 are my favorites...along with finale of #3....sublime!! (esp Martinon/CSO live....)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Heck148 said:


> "least favorite" is a little too negative for me...I love them all, some more than others....I probably


My sentiments as well. As for the much maligned 8th, I feel just the opposite. The opening gives me jolt of great pleasure and there are beautiful moments to enjoy throughout the work.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

starthrower said:


> My sentiments as well. As for the much maligned 8th, I feel just the opposite. The opening gives me jolt of great pleasure and there are beautiful moments to enjoy throughout the work.


yes!! I love the 8th...has some absolutely wonderful music...I still need to hear it live!!


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I have no least favorite, as each symphony is a masterpiece, but if forced to choose, it would probably be the 7th. I still like it a great deal, but there are some moments of surprising banality, especially in the 4th movement. I think the first movement and the finale of the 7th are brilliant. 

The 8th can be problematic, but I love it when I am in the mood.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The 8th. Over wrought, trying too hard to prove little, insecure, egotistical piece.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Eighth and the Tenth


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

8th is one of my favorites. You guys are missing out. 

Not sure I have a least favorite. The one I listen to least is the 1st.


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## DeanS (Nov 10, 2020)

Adding to this discussion, what do people think of Mahler's 2nd by Solti 1981 on Decca. It's a digital recording. to me the percussion is more volume than power, but it does sound great. Is it a respected version?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm getting to where I don't have favorites of Mahler any more. I just listen and accept. This is all cognizant stuff, though. If something is mastered really well, I am attracted, thus my preference for the Bernstein 'Carnegie Hall Presents' box mastering.

The only time I start experiencing avoidance is when the music itself is a middle of the road mediocre example of something that doesn't have enough dynamic features or harmonic interest to move me in any way.

These factors do not subsume whole composers or genres, though; they are specific to the actual music itself, as recorded, as an 'object of contemplation.' Thus, I might like Vivaldi as long as it is played a certain way, as Giuliano Carmognola plays it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

_'Adding to this discussion, what do people think of Mahler's 2nd by Solti 1981 on Decca. It's a digital recording. to me the percussion is more volume than power, but it does sound great. Is it a respected version?'_

From what I gather Solti's London 2nd is more regarded overall than the later recording with Chicago, but, as with all else, it depends who you are speaking to - many prefer the Chicago because of its supposed extra heft.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like the eighth. But I love all the others.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

The 8th...... the 10th doesn't count... as it doesn't exist.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

DeanS said:


> Adding to this discussion, what do people think of Mahler's 2nd by Solti 1981 on Decca. It's a digital recording. to me the percussion is more volume than power, but it does sound great. Is it a respected version?


It's my favorite M2, along with Walter/NYPO....


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

Would add to the chorus here citing the Eighth as the least among the Mahler symphonies. I still really like it (especially the opening of the second part), but it veers towards the bombastic a little too often for my taste. Some great recordings have increased its stature in my eyes recently -- namely Gielen's and Kubelik's. But I've never really understood why Mahler thought so highly of it in particular.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Some time this year I’m going to do a big survey of 8th recordings, because I think it may help me find the one for me and help me to fully appreciate the symphony and fall in love with it. I learned to love the 3rd last year by doing the same thing. My current favorite 8ths are Solti and Horenstein, but I can’t say that any recording has held my attention start to finish. It needs a powerful chorus, a virtuoso orchestra, an imaginative conductor, a stellar vocal quartet, and a communal spirit of adventure to pull off without sounding unduly bombastic. I don’t dislike the work by any means, though. The last few minutes of the finale is some of the greatest music in all Mahler.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Some time this year I'm going to do a big survey of 8th recordings, because I think it may help me find the one for me and help me to fully appreciate the symphony and fall in love with it. I learned to love the 3rd last year by doing the same thing. My current favorite 8ths are Solti and Horenstein, but I can't say that any recording has held my attention start to finish. It needs a powerful chorus, a virtuoso orchestra, an imaginative conductor, a stellar vocal quartet, and a communal spirit of adventure to pull off without sounding unduly bombastic. I don't dislike the work by any means, though. The last few minutes of the finale is some of the greatest music in all Mahler.


In terms of powerful chorus and communal spirit of adventure, try...

The combined L.A. Philharmonic & Simon Bolivar Orchestra with Gustavo Dudamel:





Or the National Youth Orchestra of GB with Simon Rattle:





Personally the latter is my favourite and worth the effort to download the audio.


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## Isaac Blackburn (Feb 26, 2020)

I used to have problems with the 8th. But it is now my favorite. The counterpoint -- the lines separated in timbral and pitch space -- is overwhelmingly enchanting and the emotional range, once I discarded the initial preconceptions about it being a single-minded piece of optimism propaganda, is quite satisfying.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Kiki said:


> Is it negative energy release time to stay mentally healthy?
> 
> I love Mahler's music in general, but have little love for No. 2, a piece of long-winded, self-indulgent, utterly chuunibyou, theatrical cry without pain. It's like watching Neymar doing a quadruple axel, horizontally on the grass of course, rather than in the air. Entertaining it might be, but I'm afraid I don't find it sincere enough to take it seriously.
> 
> Well, you asked.


This should go to the Unpopular opinions thread.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

It's a bit obvious and expected but the 8th. Nuff said.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Lots of people saying 8. I'll go with 4. Four is a bore!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Radames said:


> Lots of people saying 8. I'll go with 4. Four is a bore!


I love #4 but I probably listen to it the least....it doesn't have the big climax moments, the orchestration is smaller [no low brass] - the woodwind writing is really superb , tho - it's a great piece to play, and very challenging....Mahler was a great orchestrator - he knew what worked, and what didn't.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Well, I love them all a lot. Mahler started me on the path of basically only listening to classical music, I can thank no.2 for that. And I have to say, each time I listen to the 8 it grows on me a bit more, the same applies to 5 and 7. So the one I love the less, I think, is no.3. Sometimes I think the first movement is too long, but the rest is wonderful anyway.


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## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

The 9th is the one that baffles me. I don't dislike it. I just don't get it. I find the 5th gets more on my nerves over the years. I love the 8th, but I don't listen to it like a symphony. For me it's a choral work like Verdi Requiem or Beethoven Missa Solemnis.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

8, 3, and 10. In no order.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Some time this year I'm going to do a big survey of 8th recordings, because I think it may help me find the one for me and help me to fully appreciate the symphony and fall in love with it. I learned to love the 3rd last year by doing the same thing. My current favorite 8ths are Solti and Horenstein, but I can't say that any recording has held my attention start to finish. It needs a powerful chorus, a virtuoso orchestra, an imaginative conductor, a stellar vocal quartet, and a communal spirit of adventure to pull off without sounding unduly bombastic. I don't dislike the work by any means, though. The last few minutes of the finale is some of the greatest music in all Mahler.


I'm not holding you to this with six weeks to go in 2021 but I hope you get around to it eventually. I'd love see a lively Mahler 8 thread with your survey of top recordings.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Wonder what folks think about this:


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

This thread (and its opposite query) is essentially a free RNG. I've noticed this before.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Like: 5,6,9
Enjoy some parts: 1-4,Erde
Dislike: 7,8


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Easily the 3rd and 8th. My favourite is still the 7th by far.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

As someone wrote in the other thread, I also find Mahler rather uneven, although still a great composer. I still hardly know the 8th symphony, partly because such choral works don't work so well for me on disc anymore. Therefore it is the least favorite but more precisely I cannot rate it. I also don't rate the 10th as I never really was convinced by the completed versions to spend a lot of time with it.

#1 great 1st and 3rd movement and I still like it but I think it is dragged down by the long and overblown finale
#2 Similar problem with a pretentious but rather weak finale. I also still like it but the first half or more of the finale should have been cut/seriously condensed.
#3 overall way too long, especially the "short" movements 2 and 3 and of course also the 1st one. (It's also weird, the Sendak cover from the 1970s Levine seems hardly strange enough) But maybe it's the one that best shows the idea of "the symphony containing the whole world".
#4 used to be a favorite and to me it has no such obvious flaws, of course it is also considerably less ambitious than the preceding ones
#5 was an early favorite and I still find it great
#6 has a very tough nut in the finale and I prefer the by now deemed incorrect order of scherzo-andante but it's also among the greatest.
#7 is maybe the most underrated; the finale is a stumbling block for many (for some reason much more than the 5th finale)
#9 is my favorite by some margin and I think Mahler's greatest achievement.

So besides the unrated 8 and 10, 1 and 3 are lowest, 9,6 and 5 are my top.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

No 8

A crashing bore


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

1st: finale never clicked with me, simplistic and bombastic. After the revolutionary first movement and the postmodern statements of the 2nd and 3rd movement, the finale feels like a regression to mid-19th century style.

2nd: the whole symphony seems posed and insincere, with themes that are too heavy for this stage in Mahler's career. Beautiful details all over, but to me there's not a single movement that stands out, specially not the grand guignol finale.

3rd: wonderful first movement, one of the great joys in Mahler's oeuvre. Rather insignificant 2nd movement. But it stays at a constant higher level of artistry than the 2nd, even if formally and structurally it's a huge mess.

4th: concentrated and very high quality all around, the first movement is a marvel.

5th: same, but stylistically very different. I love all 5 movements equally.

6th: the highlight of Mahler's compositions so far, perfect from start to finish.

7th: a weaker reprisal of the 5th and 6th, again wonderful details everywhere, and again the first movement stands out as so often in Mahler's oeuvre, but the finale is a huge letdown, specially compared to the perfect finale of the 5th.

8th: first movement is a brilliant tour-de-force, 2nd movement a boring operatic extravaganza that overuses bad melodies. It's like Strauss' Alpine Symphony, it would have been so much better if the thematic material was better. Stylistically the whole symphony is a backward looking piece too, designed as a public pleaser in retrograde 19th century fashion.

Lied: perhaps Mahler's greatest, most intimate and touching masterpiece. Even then, the 5th movement is probably the weak spot. It's the first movement all over again, but much less convincing.

9th: consider it sacrilege, but to me, after the first movement, the greatest single movement in a Mahler symphony, there's a definite drop in quality. The symphony is also rather incoherent, almost as much as the 3rd.

10th: much more coherent than the 9th, surprisingly. I love the piece from start to finish and I don't think that after the first movement there's any lapse of power. Everything feels like echt, top-class Mahler, even if at certain spots, it's just the bare bones.

So what I consider the weaker movements in Mahler are 1.4, 2.5, 3.2, 7.5, 8.2, Lied.5 and 9.2


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I love the "clumsy and rough" Laendler of 9,ii. It's a bit dragged out, like all but the best Mahler it could have been slightly shorter and more focussed. I actually even like parts of the finale of the 1st, if the whole thing was a bit more condensed and focussed (what's the point of having the "chorale/triumph" already so early and than desparately struggling to fill another 10 min.) The instructions in the score are so over the top that it is funny: Horns stand up, bells pointed upwards! Horns have to overwhelm the trumpets, increase in number if necessary! "Mit höchster Kraftentfaltung" etc.

Why do you and others find the 7th finale so problematic compared with the 5th? Sure, it is a bit too long and too loud and I also clearly prefer the one from the 5th. But they are hardly so dissimilar that one should be among the best, the other the worst?


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I like the symphony overall, but the finale to No. 1 is probably the weakest single movement in the whole Mahler canon, IMO. I agree that the pacing and structure is a bit too episodic to really make sense (even the famously episodic finale to No. 7 feels more cohesive, at least to me). I haven't studied the textual history of No. 1 in great depth (which I should do -- it's the most complicated by a mile), but I do know that he laboured long and hard over the finale to try to get it to conclude satisfactorily in the right key. I wonder to what extent, if any, he could've avoided some of the problems it has by not overworking it. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, but I'd love to have seen that first draft.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I did not get the Mahler Eighth until I attended a live performance.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> 9th: consider it sacrilege, but to me, after the first movement, the greatest single movement in a Mahler symphony, there's a definite drop in quality. The symphony is also rather incoherent, almost as much as the 3rd.


Wow....maybe you need to hear some top level performances...M9 is probably the MOST coherent of all Mahler's symphonies...at least to me....It is one of the greatest works in all of music.



> 10th: much more coherent than the 9th, surprisingly.


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## Endeavour (Sep 9, 2021)

I'll interpret this as "the one that I listen to least" which would be the 10th (in either complete or incomplete form), and the reason why I listen to it the least is because it is not complete.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Ok. Good question. In fact,an existential question for those of us who claim to love Mahler but…? 
I will join the chorus. The 8th completely eludes me. The two different halves,two different text sources eludes me. I don’t get the connection. 
There are some wonderful musical moments but I have major problems understanding the connection between PartI and PartII. 
Most respectfully to those who like/love the 8th.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It's unfortunate that some Mahler fans neglect the No.10 Adagio. To my ears it's one of the great Mahler movements.


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## Shea82821 (Nov 19, 2021)

You know, I love them all. I think they're all terrific. I suppose as to which is my "least" favourite, it's a choice between the 4th and the 8th. I still love them, mind you, just not _as_ much.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Wow....maybe you need to hear some top level performances...M9 is probably the MOST coherent of all Mahler's symphonies...at least to me....It is one of the greatest works in all of music.


Well... that's why I said it's a controversial view. And I'm aware that it's considered by the majority of Mahler lovers as his best work. To me that's his 6th, or Das Lied - or, why not, the 10th. I'm convinced that if Mahler would have completed the 10th, and lived on to compose some more symphonies, the 9th would be seen as the first step in a new direction, not as a towering lifetime achievement.

The problem with the 9th as I see it is that it basically consists of 4 symphonic poems with little continuity between them or inner connections. Yes, I know the Adagio is based on the trio section of the Rondo Burlesque and there are other thematic links too. But when you listen to those four movements in succession, the impression is like that: four separate movements in succession. Like I said, the same problem exists with the 3rd, but in that case, I don't have the feeling that after the first movement, there's a drop in quality. In fact, I find the concluding adagio of the 3rd much more satisfying and frankly and objectively, a better piece of music than the finale of the 9th. Sue me 

I guess it's all a matter of whether you regard the formal incongruity as a problem (as I do) or just don't mind, and enjoy the music on its own terms, which is also a perfectly acceptable view.

And I did (and do) listen to many of the great recordings of the 9th, really. Klemperer, Barbirolli, Walter, Haitink, Chailly, Gielen, Kubelik, etc, etc. Lately I was blown away by Ancerl. But more often than not, I stop after the first movement. The perfection that Mahler achieved in this miraculous movement isn't matched by the other 3, certainly not by the concluding Adagio, with all those tiresome turns...
Richard Specht wrote in 1913 that if Mahler had lived to revise the 9th, he'd certainly get rid of some or most of those (the musical turns that ruin the melodic material of the finale for me).


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> Well... that's why I said it's a controversial view. And I'm aware that it's considered by the majority of Mahler lovers as his best work. To me that's his 6th, or Das Lied -


6 and DLvdE are indeed great works...



> The problem with the 9th as I see it is that it basically consists of 4 symphonic poems with little continuity between them or inner connections. Yes, I know the Adagio is based on the trio section of the Rondo Burlesque and there are other thematic links too. But when you listen to those four movements in succession, the impression is like that: four separate movements in succession.


Hmmm...interesting....the four movements certainly go together as convincingly as any of his other symphonies, maybe more so...the lead-in from the Rondo to the Finale is really quite brilliant. The Landler is wonderful, with its different tempi, and contrasting dances...but there is a finality to it, a _this is the last dance_ effect, at least, to my ears...the Rondo is a real challenge, often flubbed by conductors - tempo is crucial...if it starts too fast, there's nowhere to go at the closing, which speeds up progressively towards the frenzied finish. Try Giulini or Boulez in the inner movements, they sell it most effectively.



> Like I said, the same problem exists with the 3rd, but in that case, I don't have the feeling that after the first movement, there's a drop in quality. In fact, I find the concluding adagio of the 3rd much more satisfying and frankly and objectively, a better piece of music than the finale of the 9th.


I love the third, but I don't often listen to mvts 4, 5...I find the other movements to be more interesting...M3 is certainly a big, sprawly symphony. The finale of M3 is wonderful, one of the greatest slow movements, but so is #9/IV...great piece, tough to bring off.



> I guess it's all a matter of whether you regard the formal incongruity as a problem (as I do) or just don't mind, and enjoy the music on its own terms, which is also a perfectly acceptable view.


I don't find any formal incongruity in M9....I find it overwhelming and effective in its continuity and flow. 
Walter/ColSO is a great recording, you might also want to also try Giulini and Boulez, they are the real heavy hitters, ime....


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Not every symphony needs to hang together as tightly as Mahler's 6 (I'd argue none of the others is so "closed", maybe the 4th next, and Mahler gave up closure in the same or very close key already here (G -> E) and in the 5th (c# -> D). But I think they all hang together "poetically", especially the 9th, if not as tightly motivically.
The main problem I could see with the 9th is that the first movement is too long and overwhelming (but this is "worse" for the even longer 3rd). The slow finale is common with Mahler 3 and Tchaikovsky 6 (which might be a bit of a model, because its inner movement are somewhat similar as well)


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The 1st, the 2nd and the 8th for me, the 2nd perhaps because it's been overplayed, the 1st because I generally don't find its material attractive, the 8th I still have to get really into, if the decision ever comes ...

Favourites are 3, 5, 6, 9, 10.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I find 1, most of 2, 3, and most of 5 pretty boring.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

For all of you who find Mahler impenetrable, boring, incoherent etc., why on earth are you listening to him? Clearly you all have Van Gogh’s ear for music!:lol:

And just so you all know, the eighth is one of Mahler’s, if not music’s, greatest achievements.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

With the exception of symphonies one through eight, I think the ninth is the best


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## staxomega (Oct 17, 2011)

I am not surprised to see 8 come out as almost 3/4 of the responses in this thread, this is one you really need to see live. Also I think the default mainstream recommendation of Solti (if that is the only recording people have heard) is unsympathetic to the music and not recorded well. 

If I was retired this along with 2 would be the two symphonies I'd try and see live as many times as possible. And if making it really difficult for me and forced to choose just one I'd make it 8.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> For all of you who find Mahler impenetrable, boring, incoherent etc., why on earth are you listening to him? Clearly you all have Van Gogh's ear for music!:lol:


We wouldn't even in this thread if we didn't love Mahler!
But loving a composer doesn't mean we have to love all of his works equally. Of course he was a composer of such standing that even his "lesser" works would be the prides of the oeuvres of any of his contemporaries. And his masterpieces are of course beyond anything that was written at the time. But if we're comparing stuff, symphonies, movements, there's no way to do that without talking about our least favorite choices in fairly negative terms. But that has to be seen in perspective, compared to the true masterpieces, not as stand-alone verdicts.

And feeling forced to like everything your favorite composer churned out equally, that's just dumb and delusional.
Let me try explaining it in another way. Say you attend a recital by a friend who's a pianist or violinist or whatever. After the recital your friend asks you what were the favorite parts, what you think that came off well and was best played. And you go "oh, it was all marvelous!" "But there must be some piece that you liked more than others?" "Nope, it was all good."
Good chance your friend won't invite you to his next recital anymore.



> And just so you all know, the eighth is one of Mahler's, if not music's, greatest achievements.


It really isn't, and you'll find a dozen or more good reasons why it isn't, here in this thread. That said, if Richard Strauss composed it, we would all admire it as one of the best things he ever did. So it's all in relation to the other works in a composer's work list.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> And just so you all know, the eighth is one of Mahler's, if not music's, greatest achievements.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Not every symphony needs to hang together as tightly as Mahler's 6 (I'd argue none of the others is so "closed", maybe the 4th next, and Mahler gave up closure in the same or very close key already here (G -> E) and in the 5th (c# -> D).


I think some people make too much a fuss about it. A while ago, in the thread about Bruckner, I pointed to the example of Tristan und Isolde.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

In Mahler's time and generation when he and others were departing from more aspects than merely tonal closure it is not a big deal (and it never was a general rule for opera, of course). 
But it was a big deal for most composers a bit before than, so I think it is a relevant argument against the fragmentary forms of Schubert 8 and Bruckner 9. At the belated first performance of the Schubert b minor in the 1860s they closed it with the finale of his 3rd symphony (D major) as it was apparently felt that otherwise it would be too fragmentary.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> it never was a general rule for opera, of course


For example, look at Mozart Don Giovanni - the two final numbers are in D minor and D major, respectively, reflecting the D minor/D major tonality of the overture. Idomeneo - starts and ends in D major. Die Zauberflote - starts and ends in E flat, etc.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

You really like confusing random examples that suit your points with general rules,don't you? 

Mozart does begin/end in the same key in his mature operas, but it was not at all obligatory, not in the baroque (Bach's SMP begins in e minor, the first part ends in E major, but the (longer) second part begins in b minor and ends in c minor, Messiah has no tonal closure in any of the 3 parts or overall) and not in the 19th century. 
The final version of Fidelio has E major (Ouverture) to Bflat major in the first and f minor to C major in the second act. Beethoven would never have done this in a purely instrumental work.

Anyway, the point was that Mahler's symphonies (like some others) have a broad range wrt the "tightness" of the tonal/motivical cohesion and the 6th is on one extreme while the 9th to me does not seem particularly "loose".


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

RobertJTh said:


> We wouldn't even in this thread if we didn't love Mahler!
> 
> It really isn't, and you'll find a dozen or more good reasons why it isn't, here in this thread.


Lots of people join threads of composers that they have little or no time for. My comment was aimed at those who really can't be bothered with Mahler's work.

It really is and I haven't seen any reasons why it isn't, merely opinions and we all have them!

If I really had to, at gunpoint, say which was my least favourite Mahler work, it would be Klagende Lied:devil:


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Not every symphony needs to hang together as tightly as Mahler's 6 (I'd argue none of the others is so "closed", maybe the 4th next, and Mahler gave up closure in the same or very close key already here (G -> E) and in the 5th (c# -> D). But I think they all hang together "poetically", especially the 9th, if not as tightly motivically.


There certainly is some logic behind Mahler's "progressive tonality".

4th: very short passage at the end modulating from G major to E major, which gives the final page of the score such a marvelous ethereal quality.

5th: Minor second relation, C# minor to D major. Mahler seems to chose this kind of tonal relationship to emphasize the large contrast in mood between the first and last movements.

7th: third again, E minor to C major, like in the 4th.

9th: minor second, like in the 5th, but now downwards: D major to Db major.

10th: begins and ends in F# major, but it's interesting to note that originally Mahler planned to end the finale in Bb major, again a relationship of a third (diminished 4th, sounding like a major third).

So it seems Mahler always had one of those three kinds of tonal relationships in mind: 
- end in same key
- minor or major third up or down
- minor second up or down

The most jarring tonal transition in Mahler's oeuvre must be - at least to my ears - the one from 9.1 to 9.2, D major to C major. It always sounds like there isn't any relationship between those movements at all, which could have been Mahler's intention, but it contributes to the lack of formal cohesion that poses a problem for me in the 9th.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> You really like confusing random examples that suit your points with general rules,don't you?


Geez, calm down.. I was just wondering if those (keys) were the only or most interesting things to discuss from looking at the score.
And btw, I thought it was a bit weird you sometimes said (in effect) that 18th century instrumental works are randomly assembled movements (even though all of them end in their original keys or their tonic major), and now you talk like certain Mahler symphonies "don't hang tightly" because they don't end in their original keys. Proksch, Bryan Jeffrey: Cyclic Integration in the Instrumental Music of Haydn& Mozart


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