# What are some of the most anachronistic works by the composers?



## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

This could be a Romantic piece that sounds Baroque or a Medieval piece that sounds Romantic.

I'll start off the list with Mozart's fugue in C minor which sounds much like a 20th century work you might hear from Shostakovitch.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Rebel Les Elemens

Bach Chromatic Fantasia

John Williams sounds like Tchaikovsky

Bartok String Quartet 1 seems ahead of its time, to me

Liszt Totentanz has percussive piano like Bartok's


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Most of Samuel Barber's output was considered anachronistic at the time of its composition.

St. Saens would fall into the category. Brahms too may be considered from the past and out of date. Much of Richard Strauss as well and just about everything from the "other" Strausses whose turn of the century waltzes contrasted with the new music of the Second Viennese School.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

There are works like Edvard Grieg's _Holberg Suite_, Op. 40, that imitate musical styles from earlier styles, but I guess that's not the topic here.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

In response to the Mozart, which I agree there sounds to be some more modern sort of qualities, here is a fugue by Shostakovich that sounds Baroque at least in parts. But it also has some characteristic qualities of Shostakovich. I couldn't find a video of the fugue only, except for this amateur performance.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The first movement of Sibelius 6 sounds like an orchestral transcription of a Renaissance motet. Also agreed on Shostakovich's preludes and fugues, some of which are spiced with modernist language but a lot of them sound deliberately archaic to me. Of course Prokofiev's "Classical." And as far as "forward-looking" goes, I would nominate a great deal of things by Bach - the Eb/D# minor and B minor P/Fs from WTC Book I, the sarabande of the 5th cello suite, and so many others.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Anachronism in the sense of something being inapropriate for a time period is a concept of historical fiction writing, itself inapropriate for describing real life... 

In real life things obviously belong to the time they were created in, whatever that may be.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Late Saint-Saens always sounds like it was written more than 50 years before it was. Perhaps he just lived too long.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

A case in point:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Late Saint-Saens always sounds like it was written more than 50 years before it was. Perhaps he just lived too long.


I'm tempted to say that the three wind sonatas he composed near the end of his life were exceptions - like Richard Strauss's late concertos from over 20 years later they sound quite fresh to me.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Sergei Bortkiewicz: Especially his two symphonies.
George Lloyd: never quite left the late romantic/early modernistic world.
Nikolai Myaskovsky: same as above.
Alexander Glazunov: although he toyed with early expressionism a la Mosolov, as his Sixth Quartet shows.
Sergei Rachmaninoff
Paul Creston
Howard Hanson


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

level82rat said:


> This could be a Romantic piece that sounds Baroque or a Medieval piece that sounds Romantic.
> 
> I'll start off the list with Mozart's fugue in C minor which sounds much like a 20th century work you might hear from Shostakovitch.


Good example. Fine performance, too.

I did, however, miss the DSCH motif. Oh well ....


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

To my ears, Hildegaard von bingen (12th century) sounds a lot like Arvo Pärt (21st century). But I can't decide who the anachronist is! Could be the 2's and 1's got mixed up.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

Simplicissimus said:


> There are works like Edvard Grieg's _Holberg Suite_, Op. 40, that imitate musical styles from earlier styles, but I guess that's not the topic here.


Intentionally anachronistic works are still valid answers


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> I'm tempted to say that the three wind sonatas he composed near the end of his life were exceptions - like Richard Strauss's late concertos from over 20 years later they sound quite fresh to me.


Thank you. I don't know them but now I'll search them out.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Then of course there's the elephant in the room... the little one some people swoon about....


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> the DSCH motif


This is what I call "Mozart's homage to Shostakovitch":
Mozart: String Quartet No.19 In C, K.465 - "Dissonance" - 1. Adagio - Allegro










level82rat said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNrM37AYxfc


I also like this arrangement:





"Little is known about its first performance, but the presence of an independent double-bass part in the fugue has led scholars to suggest that it was intended for string orchestra rather than single strings."
"The arrangement was probably intended for string orchestra since the bass line has plural
violoncelli and contra bassi, but it is now usually performed by string quartet."


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I don't know if it is what Art Rock is referring to, but since nobody else has said it, I will:
Beethoven's Grosse Fuge. The first time I heard it, I thought, "what the hell is this?" Totally anachronistic to my ears, particularly given that it was written in 1825.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> This is what I call "Mozart's homage to Shostakovitch":
> Mozart: String Quartet No.19 In C, K.465 - "Dissonance" - 1. Adagio - Allegro
> View attachment 137801


Are you certain that's not Shostakovich's homage to Mozart?

Very entertaining post. I'll bet you can guess which musical motif is now hopelessly swirling around in my ear-brain.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

How about Britten’s suites?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I'm pretty sure Art Rock was referring to Dohnányi's Piano Quintets.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> I'm tempted to say that the three wind sonatas he composed near the end of his life were exceptions - like Richard Strauss's late concertos from over 20 years later they sound quite fresh to me.


You are right again elgar's ghost. There is a freshness to them and, short though they are, they are very appealing works. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> Then of course there's the elephant in the room... the little one some people swoon about....


I'm intrigued. We need official confirmation as to the identity of the elephant in the room!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

You may have joined after the hype. I'm talking about Alma Deutscher, the child prodigy who composes in an extreme retro-style that some here have hailed as the saving of modern classical music.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> You may have joined after the hype. I'm talking about Alma Deutscher, the child prodigy who composes in an extreme retro-style that some here have hailed as the saving of modern classical music.


Ah yes. Of course that's a whole different can of worms, isn't it...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

First movement of Schubert’s Fifth Symphony.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I think the gigue from Bach's sixth English Suite sounds eerily "modern":


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> You may have joined after the hype. I'm talking about Alma Deutscher, the child prodigy who composes in an extreme retro-style that some here have hailed as the saving of modern classical music.


In other words she writes stuff that a lot of people like, rather than a lot of pretentious sonic goo intended mostly for critics and music faculty. I think Alma's music is pleasant enough and I'd sooner hear it than the latest blobs of "daring" atonality or prepared-this-or-that instrument. The fact is just about every composer now is "retro". It's all been done and it's all cliché. Anyway after Alma Deutscher grows up and goes to college she'll probably get more with the postmodern program and start composing political-pamphlet operas that a couple dozen people will bother to hear. Keep hope alive.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Not the elephant in the room, but the one that is often overlooked: Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique.









Hard to imagine that it was composed only six years after Beethoven 9, 10 years before Schumann 1 and 30 years before Brahms 1!

It may well be regarded as the Sacre du Printemps of the 19th century, but as they didn't throw tomatoes at the premiere, and as it has gained some popular value, we tend to forget how incredible this piece actually is. Still, it sounds pretty timeless and might as well have been written at the time of Mahler's Titan, which was made in 1889. If it was the opium that did it, but Berlioz sure made something special.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> the little one some people swoon about....





Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I don't know if it is what Art Rock is referring to, but since nobody else has said it, I will: Beethoven


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

if anachronistic means ahead of its time, a work not mentioned is Macbeth and the witches (1859). It seems very daring to me for the time.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

norman bates said:


> if anachronistic means ahead of its time, a work not mentioned is Macbeth and the witches (1859). It seems very daring to me for the time.


A composer can't be ahead of his time, because the future always is unknown.
Anachronistic I call a composer who writes in the style of a former time. There are a number of examples of this e.g. Frederico Sardelli whose compositions can't be distinguished from music by Vivaldi or Francois Couperin.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

norman bates said:


> if anachronistic means ahead of its time, a work not mentioned is Macbeth and the witches (1859). It seems very daring to me for the time.


Anachronism doesn't mean something that is ahead of its time, it means to write in a style from the past.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> Late Saint-Saens always sounds like it was written more than 50 years before it was. Perhaps he just lived too long.


That is a truly terrible thing to say. What if I suggested that we would all be better off if Schoenberg had been strangled in his crib?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

premont said:


> A composer can't be ahead of his time, because the future always is unknown.


future can be unknown but many times certain work of arts have original traits that predate or inspire art of later periods.



premont said:


> Anachronistic I call a composer who writes in the style of a former time. There are a number of examples of this e.g. Frederico Sardelli whose compositions can't be distinguished from music by Vivaldi or Francois Couperin.


I use the term anachronistic in the same way, but in this thread it seems it's used the opposite way, so I was trying to give what the OP wants.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Neo Romanza said:


> Anachronism doesn't mean something that is ahead of its time, it means to write in a style from the past.


I know, but the guy who started the thread and used the term has actually used in the opposite way.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

The credo to Mozart's Great Mass sounds a bit like Handel.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

norman bates said:


> future can be unknown but many times certain work of arts have original traits that predate or inspire art of later periods.


Well, I think inspire is more common than just predate. Or it may be sheer coincidence. E.G the boogie-woogie variation in Beethovens op.111 second movement.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Neo Romanza said:


> Anachronism doesn't mean something that is ahead of its time, it means to write in a style from the past.


Precisely what I wrote above.

Nice to meet you here BTW,


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

premont said:


> Well, I think inspire is more common than just predate. Or it may be sheer coincidence. E.G the boogie-woogie variation in Beethovens op.111 second movement.


One of Beethoven's cello sonatas has a boogie woogie piano part as well but I forget which sonata it is and where. A section of the last movement of the Triple Concerto sounds like a tango, starting 28:08 in this video with Argerich, Capucon, Dudamel. The tango supposedly wasn't invented yet.






Google says an anachronism can be from an older or a newer time.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

premont said:


> A composer can't be ahead of his time, because the future always is unknown.
> Anachronistic I call a composer who writes in the style of a former time. There are a number of examples of this e.g. Frederico Sardelli whose compositions can't be distinguished from music by Vivaldi or Francois Couperin.


From the perspective of that future time though a work of art could be called "ahead of its time".
Broadly speaking, anachronism just means "out of chronology".


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

level82rat said:


> ...
> I'll start off the list with Mozart's fugue in C minor which sounds much like a 20th century work you might hear from Shostakovitch.


That sounds more Handelian to me, as contrapuntal Mozart often does.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

premont said:


> Precisely what I wrote above.
> 
> Nice to meet you here BTW,


It's great to see you, too, premont.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

norman bates said:


> I know, but the guy who started the thread and used the term has actually used in the opposite way.


Well, if the OP doesn't know the definition of the word then I can't help him.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Berlioz's "L'enfance du Christ" was originally performed as a "found" work -- although he never intended not to take credit for it.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I think where the terminology is getting tricky is that an anachronism is inherently something from another time. At the time of composition, the only other time available is the past, but once enough additional time has passed, and that time itself is part of the past, the period against which it may be compared expands. (Just keeping "past" and "passed" straight is tricky.)


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Opening of Mozart's 19th string quartet - the dissonance actually sound like Shostakovich - and it has the DSCH motif!


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Oh sorry I didn't see it had already been mentioned


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about, but you just have an uninsightful mindset and habit of calling everything contrapuntal in Mozart _"Handelian"_.
> 
> ...
> You know, I wasn't only talking about Phil when I said this:
> ...


:lol: Like clockwork. For the record, I think Beethoven's contrapuntal writing (e.g. in the Missa solemnis) also shows Handel's influence more than Bach's. It's not really an insult, you know. Neither Mozart nor Beethoven ever really approached Bach's contrapuntal skill, character or craftsmanship. Nobody ever did.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> :lol: Like clockwork. For the record, I think Beethoven's contrapuntal writing (e.g. in the Missa solemnis) also shows Handel's influence more than Bach's. It's not really an insult, you know. Neither Mozart nor Beethoven ever really approached Bach's contrapuntal skill, character or craftsmanship. Nobody ever did.


May I remind you the "context" in which you wrote the comment, (which you yourself seem to have forgotten):



level82rat said:


> I'll start off the list with Mozart's fugue in C minor which sounds much like a 20th century work you might hear from Shostakovitch.
> 
> 
> consuono said:
> ...


Like in the other threads, it's obvious you're just obsessed to object (without proper reasoning or backing) to every comment that has the slightest implication that Mozart was innovative. =)


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> May I remind you the "context" in which you wrote the comment, (which you yourself seem to have forgotten):
> 
> Like in the other thread,* it's obvious you're just obsessed to object (without proper reasoning or backing) to every comment that has the slightest implication that Mozart was innovative.* =)


A very innovative piece can simultaneously exhibit modern traces and Handelian influences. These two are not necessarily in contradiction. I have no idea in which way consuono meant the comment but it could be interpreted as just a mere remark ("while this sounds modern, it also sounds Hendelian") not an attack to your own statement.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> May I remind you the "context" in which you wrote the comment, (which you yourself seem to have forgotten):
> 
> Like in the other threads, it's obvious you're just obsessed to object (without proper reasoning or backing) to every comment that has the slightest implication that Mozart was innovative. =)


What exactly is innovative about the piece in question? "Innovation" isn't the be-all end-all.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^So your favorite logic is : "any 18th century counterpoint that doesn't sound "Bachian" must be "Handelian".. (As if those two guys, Bach and Handel, are the only ones that passed on the great tradition of counterpoint)."

*VIII. Pignus [24:04]*






So tell me if this is "Handelian", or "Bachian", and explain your reasoning, please?

"When in 1840 Robert Schumann labeled Mendelssohn the Mozart of the nineteenth century, he was alluding to a certain classicizing strain in Mendelssohn's music, which often projects clarity of textures, formal balance, and symmetrical phrase structures. But Mendelssohn found in Mozart a formidable contrapuntist as well, more than capable of producing dense, involved part writing, and occasionally Mendelssohn responded to this facet of Mozart's genius. Admittedly, when Beethoven's patron Prince Radziwill asked Mendelssohn in 1822 to improvise on the subject of the Fugue in C Minor, K. 426, the source was a learned, *Bachian mirror-inversion fugue* for two pianos that Mozart had composed in 1783, just as he was coming to terms with Bach's music." (Mendelssohn, the Organ, and the Music of the Past: Constructing Historical Legacies, Jürgen Thym, Page 31)



consuono said:


> Neither Mozart nor Beethoven ever really approached Bach's contrapuntal *skill, character or craftsmanship*. Nobody ever did.


And what does this have to do with the topic of this thread?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> ^So your favorite logic is : "any 18th century counterpoint that doesn't sound "Bachian" must be "Handelian".. (As if those two guys, Bach and Handel, are the only ones that passed on the great tradition of counterpoint)."
> ...


They are the two most influential 18th century exemplars and the two most closely studied by Mozart...which you know, which is why you sniff for "slights" against Wolfie from anyone saying he isn't the contrapuntal offspring of JSB. Sorry, but no torrent of Google Books and YT clips is going to make me sense that any fugue by Mozart is "Bachian". Bach is impossible really to replicate or emulate. Handel's another matter. That really isn't an insult, either. I love Handel and he was a worthy example to follow.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> They aren't the only ones. Whatabout Ernst Eberlin? Michael Haydn? (who were important to Mozart from the beginning of his career) Really, you only know Bach and Handel when it comes to 18th century counterpoint. Mozart's distant influences also include 17th century masters like Froberger (Hexachord Fantasia).
> 
> Neither is Mozart. I say yet again. Beethoven copied out K.426/K.546 in full and still couldn't assimilate the style and technique. Again, look at the development section of Op.111 first movement. And again, I never hear the kind of combination of operatic drama and double counterpoint like Mozart K.608 in Beethoven's keyboard works. Sometimes I even wonder if Joseph Haydn and Albrechtsberger taught him how to "do it" properly. -Never understood the constant over-hype that surrounds his sonatas *"The Great New Testament of Music"*, the long series of -bass tremolo on C-G, -tinklings in the treble, -bass tremolo on C-G, -tinklings in the treble, -rinse and repeat. It makes me wonder why people don't hype the similar expressions of his Op.77 as well, with the logic "you'll never understand his depth". I prefer Mozart K.394 over them any day. Your pointless comparison of the contrapuntal masters only makes guys like Chopin and Schubert look even poorer as composers. Sorry, I don't really find Chopin's nocturnes (which you praised as being a "greater artistic achievement" than Wagner's Ring) interesting. Look for more intimate pieces, you end up with stuff like Charles Mayer, - Op.32 No.1 in B major, look for more grandiose ones and you end up with stuff like Op.48 No.1 in C minor, where the entire climatic section is a sentimental exercise in parallel octaves.
> 
> I know. But nobody said in the first place it's Bachian, or it's an example of Mozart replicating Bach. Go re-read the OP's original post, which you replied to. You're the one who made a weird comment in the first place. Time and time again you misinterpret things said by others about Mozart. Clearly you have an emotional issue with him, and you've shown it time and time again. =) (Just because you're jealous. lol)


I'm jealous of Mozart?? :lol: Mozart was a monumental musical genius, which I never claimed to be. I merely said the fugue sounded more Handelian to me than "Shostakovichy". Handel's A minor keyboard fugue is likewise loaded with chromaticism.


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## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Anachronism doesn't mean something that is ahead of its time, it means to write in a style from the past.


Not really - technically anachronistic means "against the time" - of course, it applies to writing in the manner of the past, but also means using elements from different times. An example of that is Strauss' use of the waltz in Rosenkavalier. Or Tarantino's use of David Bowie in "Inglorious Basterds"

v


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

JAS said:


> That is a truly terrible thing to say. What if I suggested that we would all be better off if Schoenberg had been strangled in his crib?


I see how you are reading it. I was merely referring to how he lived and remained active for a long time (and longer than many composers) so in his later years he would have been bringing an aesthetic and training from an earlier period than "normally" happens. As for Schoenberg, I know there are members here who probably do wish that he was strangled at birth.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I'm jealous of Mozart?? :lol: Mozart was a monumental musical genius, which I never claimed to be.


I was saying, like in the other threads, you just seem to be jealous because your favorite composers did not have certain qualities Mozart had. I can sense that, from your constant obsession to disapprove all the good things said by others about him.



consuono said:


> I merely said the fugue sounded more Handelian to me than "Shostakovichy". Handel's A minor keyboard fugue is likewise loaded with chromaticism.


By all means, keep going =). you can keep acting like the elephant is not in the room. 
This will just gives me more examples of "People who overhype [X]" to discuss later in other threads. =)

"Mozart later arranged this fugue for strings as well, adding the introductory Adagio, K. 546. The traditional Baroque idiom that is developed in this fugue for two pianos lays great stress on dissonant chromatic semitones and appoggiaturas. *The intensity of the fugal writing is startling, foreshadowing the fugal textures in some of Beethoven's later works, such as the first movement of the Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.111, which exploits a variant of the same idiom.* Beethoven was so taken by this piece, in fact, that he copied out the entire fugue in score." ( Mozart's Piano Music, By William Kinderman, Page 46 )



hammeredklavier said:


> It's people like you who make Beethoven look like a thief


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

vmartell said:


> Not really - technically anachronistic means "against the time" - of course, it applies to writing in the manner of the past, but also means using elements from different times. An example of that is Strauss' use of the waltz in Rosenkavalier. Or Tarantino's use of David Bowie in "Inglorious Basterds"
> 
> v


I think I touched on this in my post, above, but the latter example is a very interesting variation on the idea. In the film, we have a period that has passed and is being recreated, which lends itself to a whole new set of anachronisms relative to the context of that period.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I was saying, like in the other threads, you just seem to be jealous because your favorite composers did not have certain qualities Mozart had. I can sense that, from your constant obsession to disapprove all the good things said by others about him.


"All"? You haven't read very carefully then. Mozart is among my favorite composers. 


> By all means, keep going =). you can keep acting like the elephant is not in the room.
> This will just gives me more examples of "People who overhype [X]" to discuss later in other threads. =)
> 
> "Mozart later arranged this fugue for strings as well, adding the introductory Adagio, K. 546. The traditional Baroque idiom that is developed in this fugue for two pianos lays great stress on dissonant chromatic semitones and appoggiaturas. *The intensity of the fugal writing is startling, foreshadowing the fugal textures in some of Beethoven's later works, such as the first movement of the Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.111, which exploits a variant of the same idiom.* Beethoven was so taken by this piece, in fact, that he copied out the entire fugue in score."


I have no problem at all with that. Composers "stole" from each other all the time. Bach "stole" from Buxtehude and Pachelbel and others. Mozart "stole" from J. C. Bach and Haydn. Beethoven "stole" from Haydn, Mozart and others. So? And what is it with this obsession with Beethoven's piano sonatas? You sound like someone who tried to take on Op. 53 or Op. 101 and could never quite make it.

By the way, that Mozart Adagio for strings sounds very...Handelian. Seriously. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I have no problem at all with that. Composers "stole" from each other all the time. Bach "stole" from Buxtehude and Pachelbel and others. Mozart "stole" from J. C. Bach and Haydn. Beethoven "stole" from Haydn, Mozart and others. So? And what is it with this obsession with Beethoven's piano sonatas? You sound like someone who tried to take on Op. 53 or Op. 101 and could never quite make it.


I have absolutely no problem discussing Michael Haydn's influence on Mozart's requiem, for example. Why is it so hard for Beethoven fanatics to admit the connection between Mozart K.546 and Beethoven Op.111? I've never seen any of them admitting it. As if the act would be some sort of sacrilege toward Beethoven. =) That's the difference. That's why I'm accusing them of making Beethoven look like a thief.



consuono said:


> By the way, that Mozart Adagio for strings sounds very...Handelian. Seriously. :lol:


You know what's funnier? Compare the introduction of Op.111 with the Adagio of K.546 (the "slow march" in chromatic steps), and allegro of Op.111 with the fugue of K.546 (the subjects with the three-note fragment that end on the leading tone in minor, and the emphasis on the three-note fragment throughout the works, and the use of trills in the bass). _Like Seriously_. =) "Ba-bam!" Isn't it just like the Mozart, albeit without the intricate control of dissonance!
The elephant is in the room, but admitting its presence would be a sacrilege. I don't know why Beethoven needs this much special treatment from you, really =). He's not God.
Then there's the boogie-woogie and long tremolo passages like Op.77. It almost makes me wonder why they don't hype Op.77 in the same way, with the logic "you'll never understand Beethoven's immeasurable depth - _The Pinnacle of Western Civilization!_" 
I know, I know. Because it's fking _"Late Beethoven!"_. Everything he wrote in that period has to be supposed to be somehow "special" or "set apart" from everything else, all "earthly things". Because it's the period when his deafness enabled him to hear his "divine inner mind".
Btw, your assertion that Mozart's rondo K.511 has a trill passage like Beethoven Op.109 was funny. Yeah, it has like 5 seconds of trill on the rising chromatic melody in the ending. You were actually comparing that to the 2-minute rambling trill on B in Op.109. _Like seriously_ =). In your defenses and attacks, your favoritism or bias toward certain composers are so evident. At least you should acknowledge some good things about composers you don't like.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I have absolutely no problem discussing Michael Haydn's influence on Mozart's requiem, for example. Why is it so hard for Beethoven fanatics to admit the connection between Mozart K.546 and Beethoven Op.111?


Well I don't hear much more of a connection between that than between the Mozart work and the Overture and "Behold the Lamb of God" from Handel's _Messiah_. (Or incidentally the similarity between the Kyrie of Mozart's Requiem and yet another section from Handel's _Messiah_, not to mention the A minor fugue from WTC II). Which doesn't detract at all from Mozart's ability to fuse influences into his own style. And I can catch a lot of all the above in Beethoven as well. Listening to the two pieces again, the effect to me is like a Haydn-type adagio-allegro symphonic first movement, or maybe a French overture form as is the aforementioned Handel overture. It's a great and interesting piece of music regardless.

Keep practicing that boogie woogie. You'll get that rhythm down eventually.

By the way, if I'm a fanatic for any composer it would be Bach, not Beethoven. Now lay some Google Books and YT vid links on me to convince me how Mozart's piano sonatas put The Well Tempered Clavier to shame.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> Well I don't hear much more of a connection between that than between the Mozart work and the Overture and "Behold the Lamb of God" from Handel's Messiah. (Or incidentally the similarity between the Kyrie of Mozart's Requiem and yet another section from Handel's Messiah, not to mention the A minor fugue from WTC II). Which doesn't detract at all from Mozart's ability to fuse influences into his own style. And I can catch a lot of all the above in Beethoven as well.


*[ 4:09 ]
[ 5:07 ]
[ 7:24 ]*



























*[ 1:49 ]
[ 5:38 ]*


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Not only that, it goes beyond its time. Maybe you're a tone deaf and can't hear it. But just face it. You just can't stand others praising the work for it. I think it pretty much sums up the attitude toward Mozart you've shown in the other threads. The statement that "Mozart anticipates Shostakovich" bothers you so much, giving you a strong urge to disapprove it. =). annaw respectfully suggested you were saying _"Mozart sounds Handelian but also anticipates Shostakovich"_. But in reality, your only intention was to bring up _"sounds Handelian"_ to negate the _"anticipates Shostakovich"_ part. Just because you can't stand someone praising Mozart as a visionary with the work. Not even once.


I don't hear a similarity. Point out a Shostakovich passage for comparison.


> Who doesn't like Bach in this forum? It's not even surprising and I don't even care. Again, you misinterpret my main intention, which is not to make this a competition between composers and all their work output (with that sort of immature mindset). My intention is to get the facts straight about the Mozart work and counter your continual attempts at anti-Mozartian propaganda. =)...


What "anti-Mozart propaganda"? Are you afraid Mozart's work can't speak for itself so he has to have you for PR? Pitting Mozart against whatever composer is apparently your whole game on this forum, apart from tossing in a "the Bach Passions are antisemitic" stink bomb. A "Mozart troll". Now I've seen everything.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Suppose you heard a broadcast on the radio of a piece you weren't aware of - it sounded like X though (where X can be your favourite composer of the 19th century), and impressed you a lot. You are then told it is a newly discovered lost work by X. I imagine you are excited and pleased.
Now imagine exactly the same thing, except at the end you are told that it is by Y, who is a composer of the second half of the 20th century. How do you feel now? Why?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Eclectic Al said:


> Suppose you heard a broadcast on the radio of a piece you weren't aware of - it sounded like X though (where X can be your favourite composer of the 19th century), and impressed you a lot. You are then told it is a newly discovered lost work by X. I imagine you are excited and pleased.
> Now imagine exactly the same thing, except at the end you are told that it is by Y, who is a composer of the second half of the 20th century. How do you feel now? Why?


It would please me to discover a previously unknown composer competent in writing the type of music I enjoy. It would also please me to discover a work I wasn't aware of by one of the composers I already know and like.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

consuono said:


> I don't hear a similarity. Point out a Shostakovich passage for comparison.


Fugue in A Minor, starts at 52 seconds.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

Eclectic Al said:


> Now imagine exactly the same thing, except at the end you are told that it is by Y, who is a composer of the second half of the 20th century. How do you feel now? Why?


That revelation would probably hinder my enjoyment. Part of my appreciation of CM comes from the fact that the music is old and the composers are highly praised in almost superhuman terms. Music composed in the modern day does not have the same magical patina to it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I don't hear a similarity.


0:16 ~ 0:19
0:46 ~ 0:58
1:16 ~ 1:22
2:07 ~ 2:15
etc














Come on, I know you hear it. Stop pretending like you don't. =) Listen carefully to Mozart's skillful control of the "wrong notes", all his "eccentricities" expressed in those quirky dissonances of major and minor seconds and everything. Please tell me you're just joking, as I was about the "anti-semitism" in Bach's passions in another thread.

"the fact remains that the "Great Fugue" is "a controlled violence without parallel in music before the twentieth century and anticipated only by Mozart in the C minor fugue for two pianos (K.426)"
<Opera's Second Death, By Slavoj Žižek, Mladen Dolar, Page 128>


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

level82rat said:


> Fugue in A Minor, starts at 52 seconds.


If it puts you in mind of Shostakovich and vice versa, I won't argue the point.



hammeredklavier said:


> 0:16 ~ 0:19
> 0:46 ~ 0:58
> 1:16 ~ 1:22
> 2:07 ~ 2:15
> ...


I did say it's a great and interesting piece, but did those writers ever listen to Bach's BWV 542 (the g minor Fantasia and Fugue), 548 (the "Wedge" fugue), BWV 903 or contrapunctus 11 from the Art of Fugue? Come on now.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

consuono said:


> I did say it's a great and interesting piece, but did those writers ever listen to Bach's BWV 542 (the g minor Fantasia and Fugue), 548 (the "Wedge" fugue), BWV 903 or contrapunctus 11 from the Art of Fugue? Come on now.


Some of those examples use chromaticism and a bit of dissonance, but that is not enough to make them comparable to Mozart's fugue. Mozart pushed those elements so far that his piece almost sound atonal.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Compare the introduction of Op.111 with the Adagio of K.546 (the "slow march" in chromatic steps), and allegro of Op.111 with the fugue of K.546 (the subjects with the three-note fragment that end on the leading tone in minor, and the emphasis on the three-note fragment throughout the works, and the use of trills in the bass). _Like Seriously_. =) "Ba-bam!" Isn't it just like the Mozart, albeit without the intricate control of dissonance!


Just listened to K. 546 again. This work is not my cup of tea, I much prefer other late Mozart compositions, and I fail to see this great connection that you do with the Beethoven's Op. 111 other than the form (I'm not aware of it being mentioned in any book I own, including the Thayer and Swafford biographies of the latter).


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

level82rat said:


> Some of those examples use chromaticism and a bit of dissonance, but that is not enough to make them comparable to Mozart's fugue. Mozart pushed those elements so far that his piece almost sound atonal.


Now that's silly.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

level82rat said:


> That revelation would probably hinder my enjoyment. Part of my appreciation of CM comes from the fact that the music is old and the composers are highly praised in almost superhuman terms. Music composed in the modern day does not have the same magical patina to it.


I disagree entirely: I just like the "thing" itself. But thank you for being honest.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> I have absolutely no problem discussing Michael Haydn's influence on Mozart's requiem, for example. Why is it so hard for Beethoven fanatics to admit the connection between Mozart K.546 and Beethoven Op.111? I've never seen any of them admitting it. As if the act would be some sort of sacrilege toward Beethoven. =) That's the difference. That's why I'm accusing them of making Beethoven look like a thief.
> 
> You know what's funnier? Compare the introduction of Op.111 with the Adagio of K.546 (the "slow march" in chromatic steps), and allegro of Op.111 with the fugue of K.546 (the subjects with the three-note fragment that end on the leading tone in minor, and the emphasis on the three-note fragment throughout the works, and the use of trills in the bass). _Like Seriously_. =) "Ba-bam!" Isn't it just like the Mozart, albeit without the intricate control of dissonance! The elephant is in the room, but admitting its presence would be a sacrilege. I don't know why Beethoven needs this much special treatment from you, really =). He's not God.


Do you know how often people here have posted that a work of one composer reminds them of a work of another composer and yet, no one else can hear the similarity? Just because you hear things in Beethoven's op 111 that reminds you of Mozart's K.546 doesn't mean that there was some kind of plagiarism. What you seem to think is some kind of protection of LVB because he's some kind of 'God' may actually be the fact that a lot of other people here have good classical ears and a lot of time listening to Mozart and Beethoven and they simply don't agree with you.


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