# Round Two: Frühling. Te Kanawa, Janowitz



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Get ready for some beautiful singing


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Hard to choose for me. Both exquisite. This is the most beautiful singing I've heard Te Kanawa do. Her voice shimmers with beauty. Janowitz is right up there with her. To me Janowitz's trump card is her B5 is so glorious, maybe the best in the whole lot of all six contestants. You decide.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I remember buying the Te Kanawa recording (vinyl!) when it was first released. I don't remember why but it came with an autographed picture of her. My main recollection of it now is a beautiful voice and a very bland performance, not one I went back to very often.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Te Kanawa one is not available here and I don’t know which performance you are referring to as she recorded it twice, once with Andrew Davis and once with Solti.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The Te Kanawa one is not available here and I don’t know which performance you are referring to as she recorded it twice, once with Andrew Davis and once with Solti.






4 Letzte Lieder, TrV 296: No. 1, Frühling · Kiri Te Kanawa · Richard Strauss · Andrew Davis · London Symphony Orchestra
or for free here


https://www.classicalarchives.com/newca/#!/Album/174968



I am usually up in the middle of the night , usually check the forum and will usually be able to get you an alternate if you let me know like this. Thanks for asking


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> 4 Letzte Lieder, TrV 296: No. 1, Frühling · Kiri Te Kanawa · Richard Strauss · Andrew Davis · London Symphony Orchestra
> or for free here
> 
> 
> https://www.classicalarchives.com/newca/#!/Album/174968


Ok. That's her earlier one. I haven't listened to it yet, but I remember it as being beautiful but bland. I was rather surprised to see that you chose this live performance with Janowitz rather than the famous one she did with Karajan.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Ok. That's her earlier one. I haven't listened to it yet, but I remember it as being beautiful but bland. I was rather surprised to see that you chose this live performance with Janowitz rather than the famous one she did with Karajan.


I chose it because I don't know these things and I will change it since only one person voted and it won't make a difference. I have Callas experts to help me out but I don't know the experts on other singers. It did not show up as it is not available as a standalone so I am posting it with the complete song cycle. I only know what Youtube shows me in my searches. None of them are listed as "live" so I figured it must be the Berlin one . I hope I was correct. Sorry. I did have the sense to ask which Schwarzkopf version to use. By the way, hers is the ONLY opera name that is spellchecked for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I chose it because I don't know these things and I will change it since only one person voted and it won't make a difference. I have Callas experts to help me out but I don't know the experts on other singers.


The Janowitz/Karajan studio recording is very famous and for many it's a first choice (though not for me).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The Janowitz/Karajan studio recording is very famous and for many it's a first choice (though not for me).


FINALLY I found a recording that said LIVE. I switched it. I am hampered in that in Youtube searches you get a buffet of everything you don't want with a smattering of things that you might actually be searching for. No live recording showed till I searched for 25 items. Karajan showed him with a live orchestra on the cover and did not say studio anywhere.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I can fix it, I just don't know which one is the live one. None of my sources say that. I am a little helpless here sometimes without information. Since it is not that one I will find the other one. I am soo stupid and uninformed sometimes..


I think this is the one: link.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> I think this is the one: link.


You are an angel, but alas, I was since then told this is not live and it will not do. I finally found the right one... I think I can smooth sail on most contests, but on something super special like the 4 Last Songs people get very picky LOL. I always check on Callas and I knew to check on Schwarzkopf on this but was ignorant of the mine field around Janowitz LOL


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Yeah, I realized later you were actually looking for a live rendition, not the studio one. Got confused. Oh well.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You are an angel, but alas, I was since then told this is not live and it will not do. I finally found the right one... I think I can smooth sail on most contests, but on something super special like the 4 Last Songs people get very picky LOL. I always check on Callas and I knew to check on Schwarzkopf on this but was ignorant of the mine field around Janowitz LOL


Why were you so set on a live recording for Janowitz? The Te Kanawa is a studio recording. 

Incidentally, there are multiple Schwarzkopf recordings as well, two studio ones with Ackermann and Szell and at least one officially released live one with Karajan.

At one time, I suppose it was much easier as most of the live releases would have been conisdered pirate recordings.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Why were you so set on a live recording for Janowitz? The Te Kanawa is a studio recording.
> 
> Incidentally, there are multiple Schwarzkopf recordings as well, two studio ones with Ackermann and Szell and at least one officially released live one with Karajan.
> 
> At one time, I suppose it was much easier as most of the live releases would have been conisdered pirate recordings.


Because I misread what you said here:Ok. That's her earlier one. I haven't listened to it yet, but I remember it as being beautiful but bland. I was rather surprised to see that you chose this live performance with Janowitz rather than the famous one she did with Karajan.
I will switch it back to Karajan. I am not the scholar you are and it is middle of the night here and I am not as sharp witted. It also confused me when you said this:The Janowitz/Karajan studio recording is very famous and for many it's a first choice (though not for me). I was trying to please you.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Yeah, I realized later you were actually looking for a live rendition, not the studio one. Got confused. Oh well.


I got CONFUSED and it turns out you have the version I need. Thanks.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I got CONFUSED and it turns out you have the version I need. Thanks.


I think we all got confused


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This is the Schwarzkopf Mas told me to use. I canNOT navigate 4 versions of hers in the middle of the night. Just clearing this up so I don't have another meltdown like this one. Sorry T-London. Youtube can drive me crazy and most people would have given up these contests by now LOL. Thank God Jessye Norman only has one recorded version ( though there is a live video).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is the Schwarzkopf Mas told me to use. I canNOT navigate 4 versions of hers in the middle of the night. Just clearing this up so I don't have another meltdown like this one. Sorry T-London. Youtube can drive me crazy and most people would have given up these contests by now LOL. Thank God Jessye Norman only has one recorded version ( though there is a live video).


This would appear to be the Szell recording, though Shaughnessy would no doubt be able to find you a label authorised version. I could only find a label authorised video of all four songs.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This would appear to be the Szell recording, though Shaughnessy would no doubt be able to find you a label authorised version. I could only find a label authorised video of all four songs.


I'll check. Ty


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Moved the Schwartzkopf - Szell - Strauss recording to here - 










Official SeattleOperaFan Contest Discussion


Shaughnessy suggested this. Here you can ask for a specific contests or artists. If we are in the middle of a contest you can suggest additional contestants for that contest here. I think it works better here than in the contest thread. I will try my best . I am discovering artists all the time...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Link to label authorized complete recording - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mLinz01lBut9tTJSTM_3GECc_TdQAnAJk


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I was in love with Kiri’s voice at the time I obtained the Te Kanawa/Davis LP, and it’s one of the versions I love still. I never liked Janowitz’s sound, so I didn’t retain that recording.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Janowitz/Karajan rolls out unhurriedly like a gorgeous Persian carpet. The conductor is at least as important as the singer here, with Karajan doing the sort of thing he did best in his DG/Berlin incarnation.

Kiri is beautiful but boring, as usual. Her conductor doesn't help her; she'd have done better surfing Karajan's sensuous waves of sound.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Would someone please consider making the word "EDIT" visible instead of hiding it behind three anonymous and inconspicuous dots?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I have a number of recordings of Strauss's _Vier letzte Lieder _in my collection, one of them being the Janowitz/Karajan, which I used to like rather more than I do now. The tempo is a bit slow in this first song (almost a minute slower than Te Kanawa/Davis) and I've grown less enamoured of Janowitz's disembodied purity. Admittedy it works better for her here than it does in the later songs, but I still prefer the likes of Schwarzkopf, Popp, Fleming and Norman.

On the other hand Te Kanawa's placid loveliness does very little for me and her tempo is, I think, marginally too fast. It's a while since I heard her later version with Solti, so I don't know how different that is.

I'm voting for Janowitz, but mostly because of Karajan's superior conducting of the song.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

With Janowitz, like Te Kanawa, it’s *all vocalises and no words*. Check out Janowitz as the Figaro Countess. I mean, yawn. Cannot understand why these two are brought up in contests.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

ALT said:


> With Janowitz, like Te Kanawa, it’s *all vocalises and no words*. Check out Janowitz as the Figaro Countess. I mean, yawn. Cannot understand why these two are brought up in contests.


Perhaps because not everyone listens for the same thing nor feels the same way that you do.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Perhaps because not everyone listens for the same thing nor feels the same way that you do.


How is that possible?


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Becca said:


> Perhaps because not everyone listens for the same thing nor feels the same way that you do.


Well, that’s one brilliant statement. Going by it, then, no one would be opinionating here and, if they dared, would promptly be shot down for their indiscretions, real or imagined. If there is one thing more odious than languid vocalises it’s double standards.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

ALT said:


> Well, that’s one brilliant statement. Going by it, then, no one would be opinionating here and, if they dared, would promptly be shot down for their indiscretions, real or imagined. If there is one thing more odious than languid vocalises it’s double standards.


I take it that English is not your primary language.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Becca said:


> I take it that English is not your primary language.


Why yes it is. But rather than focusing on me you should put aside three minutes to pay attention to what Janowitz does in the clip I posted. You will actually need much less than that to figure it out.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Deleted - post below is an exact duplicate - Hit "post" instead of "preview".


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have a number of recordings of Strauss's _Vier letzte Lieder _in my collection, one of them being the Janowitz/Karajan, which I used to like rather more than I do now. The tempo is a bit slow in this first song (almost a minute slower than Te Kanawa/Davis) and I've grown less enamoured of Janowitz's disembodied purity. Admittedy it works better for her here than it does in the later songs, but *I still prefer the likes of Schwarzkopf, Popp, Fleming and Norman.*
> 
> On the other hand Te Kanawa's placid loveliness does very little for me and her tempo is, I think, marginally too fast. It's a while since I heard her later version with Solti, so I don't know how different that is.
> 
> I'm voting for Janowitz, but mostly because of Karajan's superior conducting of the song.


Just trying to work on my game - Would these have been the selections that you mentioned in your post? If so, this is a prime example of how knowing who to look for would have been so beneficial as opposed to randomly scrolling through a couple of hundred random variations of "Strauss: Vier letzte Lieder - 1. Frühling"

There's talent here which needs to be tapped... It's difficult to find something when you don't exactly know what you're looking for...



Spoiler: Lucia Popp with Klaus Tennstedt 













Spoiler: Renee Fleming with Christoph Eschenbach













Spoiler: Renee Fleming with Christian Thielemann













Spoiler: Jessye Norman with Kurt Masur


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ALT said:


> Well, that’s one brilliant statement. Going by it, then, no one would be opinionating here and, if they dared, would promptly be shot down for their indiscretions, real or imagined. If there is one thing more odious than languid vocalises it’s double standards.


Or Wagner in Italian, or Carmen sung with passion, or singers who aren't Cheryl Studer.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Or Wagner in Italian, or Carmen sung with passion, or singers who aren't Cheryl Studer.


You missed conductors leading the Nozze Overture who aren’t Erich Kleiber. 🤣


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Just trying to work on my game - Would these have been the selections that you mentioned in your post? If so, this is a prime example of how knowing who to look for would have been so beneficial as opposed to randomly scrolling through a couple of hundred random variations of "Strauss: Vier letzte Lieder - 1. Frühling"
> 
> There's talent here which needs to be tapped... It's difficult to find something when you don't exactly know what you're looking for...
> 
> ...


Those are they, but I ony have the Fleming/Thielemann, not the earlier one with Eschenbach.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Those are they, but I ony have the Fleming/Thielemann, not the earlier one with Eschenbach.


I recall the one with Eschenbach as being too slow and a bit self-conscious and fussy, in that special, annoying Fleming way. Isn't her second try generally considered better? She has a fine voice for the music and ought to be excellent.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I recall the one with Eschenbach as being too slow and a bit self-conscious and fussy, in that special, annoying Fleming way. Isn't her second try generally considered better? She has a fine voice for the music and ought to be excellent.


I rather like the one with Thielemann. She does occasionally indulge her penchant for jazzy swoops and slides, but the voice is still very beautiful and she has acquired a new richness in the lower register, which is very attractive.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck and Tsaraslondon have it in reverse. It is in her recording with Eschenbach that we find Fleming in best behavior, as was the conductor. By the time she recorded the songs for Thielemann, the mannerisms that Tsaraslondon described had become unbearable and unacceptable in music which will not tolerate fidgeting and bad taste. Perhaps if she had recorded Porgy and Bess the jazzy swoops and the plunging into chest voice for its own sake could be forgivable and understood to be idiomatic. But not in Strauss. Never in Strauss.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Just trying to work on my game - Would these have been the selections that you mentioned in your post? If so, this is a prime example of how knowing who to look for would have been so beneficial as opposed to randomly scrolling through a couple of hundred random variations of "Strauss: Vier letzte Lieder - 1. Frühling"
> 
> There's talent here which needs to be tapped... It's difficult to find something when you don't exactly know what you're looking for...
> 
> ...


All of those are great, but almost everyone just wants to get to Schwarzkopf ( why does it always take me 3 tries to spell her name!!!!!!!). I really like Fleming in Strauss and I have her in another Strauss song where she is fabulous.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> All of those are great, but almost everyone just wants to get to Schwarzkopf ( why does it always take me 3 tries to spell her name!!!!!!!). I really like Fleming in Strauss and I have her in another Strauss song where she is fabulous.


I was just practicing - I wanted to see what effect finding the actual release would have on the search - When Tsaraslondon mentioned those names, I went to Presto Music and was able to find the original recordings which listed just enough additional information to make finding a selection significantly easier. Just by adding the conductor name to the performer name, I was able to track down the label authorized version of all four of his selections within 15 minutes.

But this is where the tricky part comes in... I would not have known to look for those specific versions were it not for his having named them - I have often stated just how difficult it is to find something when I don't actually know what I'm looking for.

All I need is for someone to provide me with the name of the performer and the conductor and, if it exists, I can find it - I think we should reach out to the members here more and tap into their expertise - If they would let us know who they would like to see featured in these contests we could save ourselves any number of headaches - These random searches can take an awfully fierce toll as you know better than anyone.

As I mentioned in another thread, this requires occasionally sacrificing the "surprise element" of some of the contests but I think that the players are less interested in surprises - especially unwanted ones - and more interested in participating in well-balanced contests with evenly matched opponents.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> Woodduck and Tsaraslondon have it in reverse. It is in her recording with Eschenbach that we find Fleming in best behavior, as was the conductor. By the time she recorded the songs for Thielemann, the mannerisms that Tsaraslondon described had become unbearable and unacceptable in music which will not tolerate fidgeting and bad taste. Perhaps if she had recorded Porgy and Bess the jazzy swoops and the plunging into chest voice for its own sake could be forgivable and understood to be idiomatic. But not in Strauss. Never in Strauss.


I can't have anything in reverse since I haven't heard the later recording and was merely speculating on it. I only know that the performance with Eschenbach dragged.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I can't have anything in reverse since I haven't heard the later recording and was merely speculating on it. I only know that the performance with Eschenbach dragged.


Fair enough. Once you get to hear the Thielemann you will be begging for the Eschenbach, dragging and all.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I can't have anything in reverse since I haven't heard the later recording and was merely speculating on it. I only know that the performance with Eschenbach dragged.


Both recordings can be found side by side in post 33 - Click on the spoiler box and the video will drop down.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I listened to Janowitz first, because of the accessibility issues. Her version was dowright unpleasant to my ears. Te Kanawa was OK or even somewhat pleasant, so it was easy to choose her. But my real star is still Arroyo from the first round.


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## brpaulandrew (Sep 30, 2011)

I first heard Te Kanawa on the soundtrack of "The Year of Living Dangerously" and stayed to see the credits to find out that the music was an excerpt of "_Beim Schlafengehen_", from the Davis recording. I was enthralled with the music and Mel Gibson, of course. 😊 



Since then, I have accumulated multiple recordings (Schwarzkopf (2), Popp, Norman, Fleming, Auje, L. Price) but return to the Janowitz most often.


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