# General Question: Orchestra vs. Singers



## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Some people listen to opera for different reasons.

I know for some people the singing is more important than the playing, but for others the music is more important than the singing.

So, I'm just asking in general:

When you're purchasing an audio recording of an Opera do generally look more at who's singing or who's conducting/playing?

Or said another way I guess:

Would you rather have "Competent" or "Just Ok" singers with a great conductor and orchestra with great choices of tempo, phrasing, etc?

Or would you rather have "Excellent or Fantastic" singers but with a "Competent" or "Just Ok." conductor and orchestra where maybe the tempos and phrasing aren't quite what they should be?

Which direction would or do you tend to lean towards?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> but for others the music is more important than the singing.


I thought singing is music.

Unless you had Wagner on your mind.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

This question, apart from personal taste, I think it could receive a different answer, for each different opera.

Speaking in more general terms, and going with Bellini's famous quote: "il dramma per musica deve far piangere, inorridire, morire... cantando!", I consider singing the most important feature for Italian 19th century opera.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I nearly always purchase recordings based upon who the singers are. Nikolaus Harnoncourt can sometimes drive me crazy with his quirky interpretive style, but the fact that he's conducting won't deter me from purchasing the recording if some of my favorite singers are in the cast. Case in point: the Zürich Opera _Fidelio_ with Jonas Kaufmann and Camilla Nylund.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I thought singing is music.
> 
> Unless you had Wagner on your mind.


Semantics...

There are dozens of operas which I would be happy to listen to without vocals because the "orchestral score" is so well written.

Sometimes you can't find a recording of an Opera with "both" great orchestral playing and great singing.

In such a case which way do you lean? Better Orchestral Performance? Or Better Singing Performance?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I pick for singers over conductors always, but am aware of the different takes a conductor can bring to a piece.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MAuer said:


> I nearly always purchase recordings based upon who the singers are. Nikolaus Harnoncourt can sometimes drive me crazy with his quirky interpretive style, but the fact that he's conducting won't deter me from purchasing the recording if some of my favorite singers are in the cast. Case in point: the Zürich Opera _Fidelio_ with Jonas Kaufmann and Camilla Nylund.


I bought the Bernstein (1978) Fidelio based on the whole production and really love all the singers, especially Gundula Janowitz and Manfred Jungwirth. Generally I don't concern myself with specific singers when buying a CD so long as I like the vocals on a particular work it doesn't matter who sings them, but for a DVD the acting is very important too.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I buy almost exclusively for singers, but sometimes conductors can do terrible things to the music even with a top-notch cast:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I have yet to purchase an opera recording for the conductor alone. When considering which recording of an opera to buy I look at the whole picture -- singers, conductor, score completeness, sound quality. I read what others have said about the recording, and I consider whether or not it would be likely to fit my own personal tastes.

Honestly, I really know very little about what constitutes a well-conducted opera performance. But I do know that I tend to prefer conducting that is "elastic" rather than "rigid." Hence my general preference for Abbado over Muti, etc. However, I have Muti's recordings of Verdi's MACBETH and ATTILA because I like the casts.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I look at the whole package.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> I buy almost exclusively for singers, but sometimes conductors can do terrible things to the music even with a top-notch cast:


I haven't heard the recording, but based on other Karajan recordings I've heard his style isn't really to my taste. Too slow and analytical.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> I haven't heard the recording, but based on other Karajan recordings I've heard his style isn't really to my taste. Too slow and analytical.


It's more like a requiem than a dramma giocoso.


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

I try to find a good balance between the two. I guess that's why it takes me a long time to finally settle on what I would consider my "ideal" recording of a particular opera.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> It's more like a requiem than a dramma giocoso.


It's called gravitas.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I haven't heard the recording, but based on other Karajan recordings I've heard his style isn't really to my taste. Too slow and analytical.


It doesn't help that Sam is upholstered like a strange piece of Louis XV furniture.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Itullian said:


> It's called gravitas.


it's called comedy


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Actually, Karajan was quite good at conducting Mozart operas. I'd quite like to hear this one (from 1963):










But these are damn good:



















...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

All quite fine recordings... regardless of the usual crew of Karajan haters.

:tiphat:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> All quite fine recordings... regardless of the usual crew of Karajan haters.
> 
> :tiphat:


YUP, They're all great recordings.


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> All quite fine recordings... regardless of the usual crew of Karajan haters.
> 
> :tiphat:


I agree. I tend to actually like Karajan's recordings.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Don't lump me in as a Karajan hater. It's just that particular recording, I was expecting such wonderful things of it because of the singers, and it was a massive disappointment due to the lumpenness of the conducting.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Whatever the genre, I'm looking for the best (as per my tastes) overall performance, Concerto, Symphony, Opera, you name it, I want as good a bunch of musicians in each and every capacity as possible. Best ensemble for me, wins over one or two great headliners and far less surrounding them.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't lump me in as a Karajan hater. It's just that particular recording, I was expecting such wonderful things of it because of the singers, and it was a massive disappointment due to the lumpenness of the conducting.


I find Karajan virtually hopeless when it comes to music of the Classical era -- period. Always, to my taste anyway, massively overblown, thick and muddy sound, and some of it, with all that weight and fullness, never even gets off the ground. (Since I think of and like my Beethoven Classical, include him in classical era, Karajan just does not do it for me there, either.)

He is with far less dispute more than fine with music past the classical era.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I used to buy CDs based solely on the singers but as my knowledge of opera increased, I started to notice and like different conductors' interpretations. Now I actively seek CDs with conductors I like. 

Two favourites are Jerzy Semkow and Lamberto Gardelli.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Orchestra/conductor first...but we have to assume that everyone is good enough to do the job. A really poor performance from either party will ruin the experience.

My take on it is this. Everyone follows the conductor. Singers control the voice but not the music they are singing. Phrasing/tempo etc are dictated by the orchestra. Rotten conducting = rotten singing, regardless of how pretty the voice may be. The singer is just a soloist in the orchestra.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couac Addict said:


> The singer is just a soloist in the orchestra.


Someone better tell Angela Gheorghiu.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> Someone better tell Angela Gheorghiu.


Somebody better tell Ewa Podleś:

_I happened once to perform with certain well-known conductor. We reach the wretched part of Orfeo, and then he starts to lead the orchestra in the tempo of gallop. I say: you know, it sounds as if Orfeo would feel happy that Euridice is finally dead! - And how would you like it m'am? - he asked. So I say: at first I'm surprised - they told me when I'll look at her, she'll die, second stanza - bottom of despair, so piano, slower, the final stanza furious - you've cheated me, Gods! - I'm explaining him: I've been singing this for 20 years and people are crying at this part. He exclaims: - 20 years?! So it's time to finally change it! Watch me! Then I couldn't resist: No, you watch me! - and I've made the fragment performed according to how I wanted it._

... or any other singer who knows he's not mere "solist in orchestra".


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Somebody better tell Ewa Podleś:
> 
> _I happened once to perform with certain well-known conductor. We reach the wretched part of Orfeo, and then he starts to lead the orchestra in the tempo of gallop. I say: you know, it sounds as if Orfeo would feel happy that Euridice is finally dead! - And how would you like it m'am? - he asked. So I say: at first I'm surprised - they told me when I'll look at her, she'll die, second stanza - bottom of despair, so piano, slower, the final stanza furious - you've cheated me, Gods! - I'm explaining him: I've been singing this for 20 years and people are crying at this part. He exclaims: - 20 years?! So it's time to finally change it! Watch me! Then I couldn't resist: No, you watch me! - and I've made the fragment performed according to how I wanted it._
> 
> ... or any other singer who knows he's not mere "solist in orchestra".


Yes, but that's sorted out in rehearsal. Presumably, Podles still followed the conductor because he conceded to her interpretation. A violin soloist etc. will do the same thing. 
When it comes to the performance, what is a singer but a solo instrument? ...assuming we're only talking about the music and not the theatrical requirements.

As for singers being merely orchestra soloists. I gave the wrong impression with that one. There's nothing _mere_ about it. It's the highest accolade you can afford a musician. I just mean that singers are musicians in the orchestra and have to follow the conductor.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Couac Addict said:


> I just mean that singers are musicians in the orchestra and have to follow the conductor.


Some claim that what distinguises ordinary symphonic conductor from good opera conductor is that the latter is able to follow the singer(s), understands that the voice is instrument unlike the others and can adjust his conducting to that. For example, it shouldn't happen that singer has to stretch his breath to the extreme and gasp when something goes differently than planned, just because conductor keeps his tempo and everybody has to follow: the conductor should be hearing when singer is reaching his limit (which can always happen at different stage than during rehearshals) and aid him by catching up with how long he can hold. I think that such understanding is much more important in opera than on concert stage during piano or violin concerto being played.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Someone better tell Angela Gheorghiu.


haha, pwned!........


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Actually, Karajan was quite good at conducting Mozart operas. I'd quite like to hear this one (from 1963):


I didn't know there was a recording of _Don Giovanni_ with Wunderlich! Now I need to find out more about this. (Hope it's sung in Italian and not German translation.)


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

I’ve always been fixated on vocal music to a large degree. Unless the conductor really bungles it, my sensitivity largely lies with the singers’ personalities and their characterizations. It’s not that I couldn’t sense the importance of the orchestral part or the overall musical direction, but it bothers me far more seldom than an unengaging vocalist. Probably my sense of distinction in the former regard is not as far developed.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I am usually guided by my preference for the singers. Fortunately some of my favourite singers recorded with conductors I also like, Serafin, Karajan, Beecham, Guilini, Bohm, Pappano. However there is one conductor I actively avoid in Verdi, and that is Solti, which is a shame because Price and Vickers could quite possibly be my favourite Aida and Radames. I can't abide their recording, though, because of Solti's relentless, brash and bombastic conducting.

I avoid Gheorghiu's *La Traviata* for the same reason. I actually saw this production and felt the same then. There was no lyricism in the conducting and Solti never allowed the strings to sing. For *La Traviata*, I turn to Callas (preferably in her live Covent Garden production, conducted by Rescigno), but if I were to go for a studio recording, then it would be Cotrubas (under Kleiber) or De Los Angeles (under Serafin). Both conductors are infinitely more sensitive than the clunky Solti.


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