# How much do I have to have heard?



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism? I've just been insulted as not "serious about classical music" for not having already heard Segerstam, Tubin - ok, fine. Let's say I get those guys under my belt too. 

What else do I need? 

I'll start, but I don't have much time just now and of course I'd not be able to include everything anyway. But the list of music that you'd better know or we will look down our noses at you includes: 

- Beethoven's symphonies (you should be bored with 3, 5, 6, and 9 already, and insist that 4, 7, and/or 8 are real gems that people don't appreciate) 
- Beethoven's string quartets
- Beethoven's piano sonatas and other works for solo piano (but puh-lease don't bother us with Fur stinking Elise, we probably feel ill just remembering that it exists)
- Beethoven's piano concerti (do not say "concertos"), violin concerto, triple concerto 
- Mozart's operas 
- Mozart's piano concerti 
- Mozart's symphonies 
- Bach's mass, passions, cantatas 
- Bach's organ music
- Handel's oratorios 
- Verdi's operas
- Prokofiev's operas
- Wagner's operas
- Janacek's operas
- Puccini's operas 
- Tchaikovsky's symphonies
- Vivaldi's concertos - except the Four Seasons, which you need to be sick and tired of, in order to be a serious classical music listener. 

We probably need a category for music that you need to be sick and tired of, in order to be a serious classical music listener. Fur Elise, Blue Danube, and so on. 

Go ahead, I need to expand this list at least until we get to Segerstam and Tubin. Sadly I have to go now, but I'll come back and work on it more myself.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Look, do what you can and like to, and f...those who insult you. Stop at once to worry about what others think or say.


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## Operadowney (Apr 4, 2012)

BOOM!
Great job Odno.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Music is supposed to be a pleasure, so do your own thing. Half of the people making these cracks probably haven't heard the stuff they are gabbing on about.
You will find your own level as time passes, and you can like the "Blue Danube" if you wish it's very good music.
I don't like the ghastly cacophony of most modern music and I'm certainly not going to be propelled into pop music by Argus and his ilk.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

You have to at least get to SEBASTIAN DE ALBERO! The poor guy doesn't even have an English wikipedia page. After him, you need to go and soak yourself in some good HYPOTHETICAL CHINESE COMPOSERS!

And then spend a few thousand bucks on one of the 3 original manuscripts of Sorabji's Opus Cyclica Diabolico-Logico-Mathematico-Lucifugeco-Mythicabilisticorum.

Then you're done.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Ah yes, the ilk. That someone has ilk is a powerful indication that he is not only Wrong, but clearly not an Original Thinker (otherwise his ilk would be unlike him - a conceptual contradiction of the term).

Lots of folks have ilk, if the grouping is large enough. Ilkiness is a Bad Thing, so if the group gets too big, the ilkiness sort of fades away. I am aware that misogynists consider the human female to be a Bad Thing, and that is a big group, But if Misogynist John refers to "Mary and her ilk", he may be talking about a smaller group of ilk.

And that is my Edifying Offering for today.

As you were.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

part one




 part two

Finnish composer, Leif Segerstam's 212th symphony (!) - in 2012 he finished his 253rd symphony. This is a gorgeous work which reminds me alternatively of Schnittke, Henze, Berg, and Carter - and yet is an original voice. It is not linear in a strict sense, as forward motion seems suspended at times, and some parts appear to be aleatoric as there is no conductor for much of the 26 or so minutes, one-movement symphony, and several violinists are gazing out and about as they saw away on one double stop. In one place in part 2 the principal violinist rises to the podium where he continues to play and conduct. Lief Segerstam is the guy playing piano. My first experience ever with his music, and it is hard to imagine 253 symphonies in terms of individuality, but I liked #212 a lot - there is a phalanx of percussion instruments, and strings in multiple divisi - the entire orchestra plays a lot, but more at mp-mf and occasionally forte - like boiling and simmering and morphing and it struck me as a slow lava flow. Well worth a listen.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I trust this thread is in jest, science! Screw anyone who says such things to you. Whether or not you're serious about classical music depends on your attitude, not how much you've listened to. This is like people who confuse intelligence with acquired knowledge.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I trust this thread is in jest, science! Screw anyone who says such things to you. Whether or not you're serious about classical music depends on your attitude, not how much you've listened to. *This is like people who confuse intelligence with acquired knowledge.*


That is a very good analogy!

You get a like just for cleverness there.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Thank you. 

I LIKE Strauss waltzes.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

science said:


> We probably need a category for music that you need to be sick and tired of, in order to be a serious classical music listener. Fur Elise, Blue Danube, and so on.


Fur Elise was one of the pieces I theoretically learned to play. My father always used to say that it sounded somewhat familiar when I played it. The other day I heard someone playing it and I thought. That's a familiar piece of music.

Most girls become (like) their mothers, they say. I'm becoming my father!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ah yes, the ilk. That someone has ilk is a powerful indication that he is not only Wrong, but clearly not an Original Thinker (otherwise his ilk would be unlike him - a conceptual contradiction of the term).
> 
> Lots of folks have ilk, if the grouping is large enough. Ilkiness is a Bad Thing, so if the group gets too big, the ilkiness sort of fades away. I am aware that misogynists consider the human female to be a Bad Thing, and that is a big group, But if Misogynist John refers to "Mary and her ilk", he may be talking about a smaller group of ilk.
> 
> ...


It's like sitting at the feet of the great thinkers.


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## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

science said:


> What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism? I've just been insulted as not "serious about classical music" for not having already heard Segerstam, Tubin - ok, fine.


Give it another 5-10 years, I'd say. By the time the "project" is up to about 24,000 you might be OK by then.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Andy Loochazee said:


> Give it another 5-10 years, I'd say. By the time the "project" is up to about 24,000 you might be OK by then.


At our pace, if we go on for 10 years, we'll be closer to 5000 than 24,000!

We'd need about 50 years to get 24,000 - of course I realize you were joking, but I think large numbers are fun.

I would absolutely _love_ our list to reach 5000. If that were to happen, then designing/initiating the project would be one of the greatest accomplishments of my life. (Though I have to be honest here: I have every intention of doing similar projects over and over and over and comparing/compiling the results.)


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Several years ago I bought an Ipod and Goulding's _Classical Music_. I was working through the composers figuring out which CDs to buy to sample "great" music. I had not heard Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto and was surprised that Dvorak sounded Romantic. BUT, I was very serious about classical music. I had heard enough music that captivated me and made me want to explore so much more.



Polednice said:


> Whether or not you're serious about classical music depends on your attitude, not how much you've listened to.


This is precisely right.

Incidentally, I'd be surprised if whoever accused you of not being serious about classical music actually tried to defend that statement. One would have to change the meaning to make sense of it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Im not judgmental, you only have to heard Wagner's 10 mature operas in my book. 

If you haven't, you're nothing.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

I didn't listen to the 10 mature operas of Wagner, but once I burned about 50 CD of it. I don't mean copied, but burned in the real sense, with a torch. It's what it deserve. I love those operas, it made a beautiful fire.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

science said:


> *- Bach's organ music*


Your quest is over, my friend.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Someone who listened to a tenth of what you've listened to is already an intense, *true lover* of music, *period.*


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

You have to know all the themes to the 106 Haydn symphonies, have them catalogued in your Haydn symphony theme index you made, and have one complete set, and various superior sets for your favorites. If you haven't done this, you don't know anything about the art of classical music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Im not judgmental, you only have to heard Wagner's 10 mature operas in my book.
> 
> If you haven't, you're nothing.









Odnoposoff said:


> I didn't listen to the 10 mature operas of Wagner, but once I burned about 50 CD of it. I don't mean copied, but burned in the real sense, with a torch. It's what it deserve. I love those operas, it made a beautiful fire.


I would support you in that, but we can't be like Hitler, burning books (or cd's!). Just stay and fight the fight against rubbish highbrow dogma on this forum. The word is more powerful than the sword, my friend.

But I'm over this place basically. It went down the tubes a few weeks back, it reached it's lowpoint, with a couple of threads where the resident high priest of contemporary classical music led a witch hunt of his own.

Now it's open slather for that kind of behavior. Anything goes. The ultimate_ victim_ is reason and common sense.

I could go on a rant, but it's boring, this is over and out.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Odnoposoff said:


> I didn't listen to the 10 mature operas of Wagner, but once I burned about 50 CD of it. I don't mean copied, but burned in the real sense, with a torch. It's what it deserve. I love those operas, it made a beautiful fire.


That's child's play. I use to buy complete Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven, and Sibelius Symphony Cycles, re-write the CDs with Wagner's Ring Cycle, and then return them to the store.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism? I've just been insulted as not "serious about classical music" for not having already heard Segerstam, Tubin - ok, fine. Let's say I get those guys under my belt too. ...


I now get the sarcasm of your opening post, science. But I will let my rant above stand, unedited, to show my anger.

Anyway, as my mother says, don't only look at what a person is saying to you (eg. their criticism or judgement), but also look at_ who_ is saying this to you.

So on these forums, what is good to look out for is not the repertoire they are pushing down your throat (it can literally be anything they value and you don't or might not be inclined to), but these things -

- Their attitude
- Their way of communication
- Are they focusing on facts or pushing yet another agenda?
- Do their opinions come across as reasonable or off the planet? Would they be supported by consensus opinion, eg. by writers on music or musicians?
- If they say "I own all the Bruckner cycles" be wary a bit, esp. if it's used as a sledgehammer to prove you _wrong_ or paint you black in some false dichotomy rant/argument.

The issue is, I have often had to go outside these forums to get into significant composers in their fields.

Eg. -

Godowsky - major pianist of his time, composer for that instrument. Got into him off my own bat, my own reading. Nothing or not much about him on these forums. Just getting into him now.

Harry Partch - an acquaintance who knows his music told me about him. Again, nothing on him here before, I made the first thread on him.

One composer I do remember being exposed to here on TC is Hovhaness. Is he required listening? Don't know, but he was a significant composer of USA coming to the fore after 1945.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> That's child's play. I use to buy complete Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven, and Sibelius Symphony Cycles, re-write the CDs with Wagner's Ring Cycle, and then return them to the store.


Interesting concept. If I were ever to give you a birthday present, your "Ring Cycle" CD would in fact have a few petite Rococo symphonies by the likes of Stamitz, Sammartini, and W.F. Bach. Just to show you how caring I am.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Sid James said:


> The issue is, I have often had to go outside these forums to get into significant composers in their fields.


To be fair, Sid, I often search TC to look for suggestions on composers I am less familiar with. Obviously, I don't always find suggested works, but there is a lot of information here. I have a very long list of works to listen to based on threads here. I still consider TC a very welcome resource when looking for new music (or re-trying works I have heard before).

I think it is relatively easy to separate posts by those with an agenda from posts that attempt to give less biased information.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Well, i've never burned a CD (that would be a crime), but it could be a good simbol for RW, so admired by an authentic burner of books and dead bodies.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Can you guys stop with that crap?


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## sheffmark (Apr 9, 2012)

Segerstam? Tubin?
Who are they?


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

science said:


> What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism? I've just been insulted as not "serious about classical music" for not having already heard Segerstam, Tubin - ok, fine. Let's say I get those guys under my belt too.
> 
> What else do I need?
> 
> ...


Give it to Mikey, he eats everything. He likes it!


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Half the threads around here now are in this manner :lol:


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Holy crap as if Couchie got banned  :lol:


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Why was Couchie banned


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## martijn (May 4, 2011)

He mentioned the word "Wagner" more than this site could handle.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

By Tubin I've a string quartet, a piano 1 movement quintet, 2 concerts, a suite on Estonian dances and a ballade for violin and orch. and the doublebass concerto. All are splendid works.


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## spiring (Apr 16, 2012)

science said:


> What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism? I've just been insulted as not "serious about classical music" for not having already heard Segerstam, Tubin - ok, fine.


For what it's worth, this is the "insult" referred to:

"Speaking for myself, BIS has been instrumental in introducing me to "obscure" composers and/or works.
Their cycles of albums on Tubin, Segerstam, Holmboe, Leifs, Skalkottas, etc. are examples of their leadership in repertoire off the beaten path - how far along would these composers' discographies be without labels such as BIS to champion their works?

I should think anybody serious about classical music would already have a significant number of albums from BIS, Chandos, Ondine, the defunct Koch Schwann/Koch International label, and so on ..."

http://www.talkclassical.com/18961-chandos-bis.html

A slight case of over-reaction, in my humble opinion.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

spiring said:


> A slight case of over-reaction, in my humble opinion.


 Perhaps but what a daft comment suggesting that people can't be serious about classical music unless they've heard work by a bunch of fringe composers that most people have probably not come across.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

> What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism?


Well, I don't think that anyone is ever really above criticism. But if you want to try, then my answer would be: listen to everything written, ever! Then you can totally criticize the criticizers


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## spiring (Apr 16, 2012)

Very Senior Member said:


> Perhaps but what a daft comment suggesting that people can't be serious about classical music unless they've heard work by a bunch of fringe composers that most people have probably not come across.


Well, it would have been a daft comment, but that's not what the poster wrote. The quote concerning seriousness was "I should think anybody serious about classical music would already have a significant number of albums from BIS, Chandos, Ondine, the defunct Koch Schwann/Koch International label, and so on ..." which, if anything, seems to suggest that it would be non-serious to dismiss recordings released on certain labels, just because of the label. (That "bunch of fringe composers" was mentioned as examples of composers that the poster has discovered through those labels, not as something it should be obligatory to know in order to be "serious".)

An opinion it's possible to discuss, to agree or disagree with, but hardly an "insult". Especially since it didn't seem to be directed towards anybody in particular.

(The continuation of the quote was, though: "... I'm curious as to why the OP would need further reasons to warm up to labels like these? The vastness of their catalogues speak for themselves, IMHO." I can't read this as an insult either.)


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Stargazer said:


> Well, I don't think that anyone is ever really above criticism. But if you want to try, then my answer would be: listen to everything written, ever! Then you can totally criticize the criticizers


Be careful, certain people here will claim they have!


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## pasido (Apr 2, 2012)

science said:


> What I want to know is, when do I become beyond just criticism? I've just been insulted as not "serious about classical music" for not having already heard Segerstam, Tubin - ok, fine. Let's say I get those guys under my belt too.
> 
> What else do I need?
> 
> ...


"Dont say concertos" ... says it in the end: "Vivaldi's concertos.


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