# Who cares if I listen? A study of dodecaphonic music enjoyment



## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

As promised in the other thread, I share with you the results of the «Dodecaphonic survey»: *Who cares if I listen? A study of dodecaphonic music enjoyment.*
A single-paragraph summary for the impatient:



> take a brief dodecaphonic piece, let us call it D;
> modify 10% of the notes in D by changing their pitch. Let us call this new piece DM;
> have an audience of people who appreciate dodecaphonic music listen to D and DM;
> there is no evidence that the listener's enjoyment is lowered from D to DM. In other words, dodecaphonic enthusiasts seem not to care that the notes being played are "wrong".


Thanks to everyone who took the survey and provided useful feedback in the survey thread.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I just realized, it's been ages since I've heard any Webern. I think I'll remedy that situation now. I think I'll start with the Symphony. 
And I'm confident all of the notes will be "right".


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm impressed with your programming skills. You were able to randomly corrupt various notes on various pieces for each survey instance? I think the experiment was well constructed. The results are pretty clear. I recall I only liked one tonal piece of the samples. Better to throw out the wheat together with the chaff right? Haha. A cruel but very effective experiment. 

You confirmed a suspicion I always had concerning atonal music. But atonal music has more than just all the notes being in a certain (I was going to use the word 'right') place.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

As far as I can tell, your experiment doesn't prove what you think it does.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

flamencosketches said:


> As far as I can tell, your experiment doesn't prove what you think it does.


Absolutely this. There are zero valid conclusions to be drawn, other than about the disingenuous agenda of the OP. Suspecting as much, I avoided participating, as did many. This was a junk survey. Garbage in, garbage out.


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm impressed with your programming skills. You were able to randomly corrupt various notes on various pieces for each survey instance?


The coding part was bothersome - MIDI specification, events, synonyms, such a frustration - but conceptually simple: note = note + randSemitones(-4,8);. The script was made in Haskell, I generated 25 corrupted examples for each 30-seconds track and those were picked at random each time a the survey page was opened.



> But atonal music has more than just all the notes being in a certain (I was going to use the word 'right') place.


Spot on: now and then I enjoy Webern or Nono or Dallapiccola; the experiment just an indication that it is not the specific series that makes the composition worthy of being listened.



SuperTonic said:


> I just realized, it's been ages since I've heard any Webern. I think I'll remedy that situation now. I think I'll start with the Symphony.
> And I'm confident all of the notes will be "right".


Milkman approved!

@flamencosketches and @Knorf: I understand it is a touchy subject and interpretation of the data - and what can be inferred from the data - will always be contentious for any kind of experiment. Just let me stress that I tried to be as narrow as possible with the research question and as overt as possible in writing the «Limitations» paragraph.
I expect and welcome all kind of criticism - as one should when doing an exploratory study -, it is a stepping stone, not the final word. Let us enjoy the music - any music - of our choice!


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I didn’t take this survey either as it was posted on another classical forum I frequent. This survey doesn’t prove anything.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

accmacmusic said:


> @flamencosketches and @Knorf: I understand it is a touchy subject and interpretation of the data - and what can be inferred from the data - will always be contentious for any kind of experiment.


What's touchy is found in your fallacious reasoning and fatally flawed methodology.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm not sure how this experiment doesn't prove anything. Participants who claimed or acknowledged they appreciate 12-tone music actually liked the corrupted version of the Webern over the original!


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm not sure how this experiment doesn't prove anything. Participants who claimed or acknowledged they appreciate 12-tone music actually liked the corrupted version of the Webern over the original!


When devising the experiment I decided only to test the probability of P < P₁ (where P is the original piece and P₁ the corrupted one) and not P ≠ P₁ (P<P₁ _or_ P>P₁). But yeah, that graph was really interesting and if I were to redo the experiment in the future - maybe during another quarantine? - I would test that hypotesis too.

@ the «I don't like this» folks: you owe me no methodological explanation and I cannot read your minds.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

accmacmusic said:


> The coding part was bothersome - MIDI specification, events, synonyms, such a frustration - but conceptually simple: note = note + randSemitones(-4,8);. The script was made in Haskell, I generated 25 corrupted examples for each 30-seconds track and those were picked at random each time a the survey page was opened.
> 
> Spot on: now and then I enjoy Webern or Nono or Dallapiccola; the experiment just an indication that it is not the specific series that makes the composition worthy of being listened.
> 
> ...


So the survey would pick 1 of 25 pregenerated corrupted instances. I was thinking it processed the corruptions each time the survey was taken, so that no 2 corruptions were alike. But it doesn't really affect the results.



accmacmusic said:


> When devising the experiment I decided only to test the probability of P < P₁ (where P is the original piece and P₁ the corrupted one) and not P ≠ P₁ (P<P₁ _or_ P>P₁). But yeah, that graph was really interesting and if I were to redo the experiment in the future - maybe during another quarantine? - I would test that hypotesis too.
> 
> @ the «I don't like this» folks: you owe me no methodological explanation and I cannot read your minds.


I didn't really pay attention to the p and f values, I only looked at your raw data on the % of answers on the levels 1 through 6. But I see I should rephrase what I said earlier: It's more participants who claimed to appreciate 12-tone music liked the corrupted version than the original, it's not that they were the same participants comparing the original and corrupt versions.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I spoke with a classical performer friend of mine who thought it might be more interesting to randomly vary the rhythm of both tonal and atonal (or serial) music and see how easily people could tell. The pitch of tonal music (for both harmony and melody) is, in general, more integral to the work than for atonal works. Rhythm and timbre play more important roles in modern/contemporary works. 

I was wondering if those who felt that the methodology was flawed had ideas about a better methodology for an experiment like this one.


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> I spoke with a classical performer friend of mine who thought it might be more interesting to randomly vary the rhythm of both tonal and atonal (or serial) music and see how easily people could tell. The pitch of tonal music (for both harmony and melody) is, in general, more integral to the work than for atonal works. Rhythm and timbre play more important roles in modern/contemporary works.
> 
> I was wondering if those who felt that the methodology was flawed had ideas about a better methodology for an experiment like this one.


Your friend is a sensible person and I agree with their remark - as I agree with yours on methodology. Randomizing rhythm is possible but a bit more challenging both code wise; dynamic is a candidate too.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

They also should do a study of the paint splatters of Jackson Pollock. That would be so informative, and we would learn so much about abstract art.


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## accmacmusic (May 9, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> They also should do a study of the paint splatters of Jackson Pollock. That would be so informative, and we would learn so much about abstract art.


They actually did; this and e.g. _priming_ are well reasearched fields.
I would link to the full paper but it is via sci-hub and I am not sure that is allowed here.


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