# Sutherland and Caballe': A Comparison



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Whenever Bel Canto factions rage, they are most always between La Stupenda and La Divina. Caballe' drove many people mad with ecstasy.I would like to hear views comparing these two Bel Canto specialists, La Superba and La Stupenda. There is no question that Sutherland had the upper hand with high notes and her trill was much better than Monserrat's. But other than that, how do they stack up? I'm doing my speech on Caballe' next week.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Whenever Bel Canto factions rage, they are most always between La Stupenda and La Divina. Caballe' drove many people mad with ecstasy.I would like to hear views comparing these two Bel Canto specialists, La Superba and La Stupenda. There is no question that Sutherland had the upper hand with high notes and her trill was much better than Monserrat's. But other than that, how do they stack up? I'm doing my speech on Caballe' next week.


Caballe has been growing on me the past several months, so good timing 

overall, I prefer Sutherland simply because the sound was so glorious and heroic, like an angel queen reigning down lightning from the heavens.

however, Caballe has the definite edge on legato, pianissimi and lower register. if Sutherland reminds me of an angel queen, Caballe reminds me of the stained glass of a cathedral.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Caballe has been growing on me the past several months, so good timing
> 
> overall, I prefer Sutherland simply because the sound was so glorious and heroic, like an angel queen reigning down lightning from the heavens.
> 
> however, Caballe has the definite edge on legato, pianissimi and lower register. if Sutherland reminds me of an angel queen, Caballe reminds me of the stained glass of a cathedral.


I second this whole post :tiphat:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

According to Caballe', she is not a coloratura bur rather a lyric spinto with coloratura, which is not the same thing. But she said with this type of voice you can sing most anything in the soprano repertoire. I would say both Maria and Joan were more firmly within the coloratura camp with their innate abilities even though their voices were much larger instruments, but Caballe' had her unique gifts to bring to Bel Canto roles. 
Another interesting fact about her career was that she sang 88 different roles and over 3800 performances despite suffering greatly from stage fright. She also suffered from poor health for much of her career but missed only 200 performances in a very busy career.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> According to Caballe', she is not a coloratura bur rather a lyric spinto with coloratura, which is not the same thing. But she said with this type of voice you can sing most anything in the soprano repertoire. I would say both Maria and Joan were more firmly within the coloratura camp with their innate abilities even though their voices were much larger instruments, but Caballe' had her unique gifts to bring to Bel Canto roles.
> Another interesting fact about her career was that she sang 88 different roles and over 3800 performances despite suffering greatly from stage fright. She also suffered from poor health for much of her career but missed only 200 performances in a very busy career.


I agree with Caballe's assessment (I have never understood how most people consider her a lyric soprano. she has way too much vocal weight and even hung out part time as a respectable Wagner singer).

as for Callas, to me she is a dramatic soprano/mezzo more so than a coloratura, with the exception of a brief period of her career which was over well before the age of 30. a coloratura soprano has to have _easy_ access to coloratura, and Callas's coloratura and high notes were much more labored than her lower tessitura rep.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> According to Caballe', she is not a coloratura bur rather a lyric spinto with coloratura, which is not the same thing. But she said with this type of voice you can sing most anything in the soprano repertoire. I would say both Maria and Joan were more firmly within the coloratura camp with their innate abilities even though their voices were much larger instruments, but Caballe' had her unique gifts to bring to Bel Canto roles.
> Another interesting fact about her career was that she sang 88 different roles and over 3800 performances despite suffering greatly from stage fright. She also suffered from poor health for much of her career but missed only 200 performances in a very busy career.


If we must categorize, I think Caballe was accurate in her self-assessment. "Lyric" refers not so much to vocal weight as to legato articulation, which she certainly had. The "spinto" part indicates a certain strength and dramatic capacity. Her coloratura was quite respectable.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I agree with Caballe's assessment (I have never understood how most people consider her a lyric soprano. she has way too much vocal weight and even hung out part time as a respectable Wagner singer).
> 
> as for Callas, to me she is a dramatic soprano/mezzo more so than a coloratura, with the exception of a brief period of her career which was over well before the age of 30. a coloratura soprano has to have _easy_ access to coloratura, and Callas's coloratura and high notes were much more labored than her lower tessitura rep.


Callas did not become a different kind of singer after age 30. The high notes became progressively less reliable, but apart from that difficulty her coloratura facility, always superb, remained intact. Quibbling over what "fach" she belonged in is pointless; she was one of the rare singers who couldn't be categorized. When the voice was working well she could sing effectively practically anything written for soprano.

It should also be noted that Caballe's singing betrayed increasing effort after the early '70s - the effect, I suspect, of pushing herself into heavier roles.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Callas did not become a different kind of singer after age 30. The high notes became progressively less reliable, but apart from that difficulty her coloratura facility, always superb, remained intact. Quibbling over what "fach" she belonged in is pointless; she was one of the rare singers who couldn't be categorized.
> 
> It should also be noted that Caballe's singing betrayed increasing effort after the early '70s - the effect, I suspect, of pushing herself into heavier roles.


we hardly need to get into specifics. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that different singers should pursue different roles depending on where they are in their career.



> _When the voice was working well_ she could sing effectively practically anything written for soprano.


I beg to differ. if that were the case, her vocal prime would have been beginning around the time it was on the decline. voice type aside, as much as I love Callas, she is a case study in how NOT to have vocal (or physical) longevity.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Can we for _once _keep this on Caballe and Sutherland please


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Callas did not become a different kind of singer after age 30. The high notes became progressively less reliable, but apart from that difficulty her coloratura facility, always superb, remained intact. Quibbling over what "fach" she belonged in is pointless; she was one of the rare singers who couldn't be categorized. When the voice was working well she could sing effectively practically anything written for soprano.
> 
> It should also be noted that Caballe's singing betrayed increasing effort after the early '70s - the effect, I suspect, of pushing herself into heavier roles.


Caballe was at her vocal peak in the mid 60's. Her voice became heavier as she entered her 40's, but she was often plagued by poor health. Caballe occasionally recorded High D's but they sounded strained. Not like Sutherland or early Callas. Caballe' considered herself second fiddle to her friend Maria. She and Sutherland had a very cordial relationship. She was balking at the high notes in Norma and Joan said, they are all optional or interpolated. Go for it sista.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

What I respect most about both Caballe and Sutherland is that they were big voices who knew who to move and sing lyrically and melodiously. Just because you have a big voice does not mean you can't sing with graceful, feminine elegance.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> we hardly need to get into specifics. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that different singers should pursue different roles depending on where they are in their career.
> 
> I beg to differ. if that were the case, her vocal prime would have been beginning around the time it was on the decline. voice type aside, as much as I love Callas, she is a case study in how NOT to have vocal (or physical) longevity.


Oh please.

Callas is not a "case study" in _anything_. She was a great singer who had a peculiar personal combination of physical/emotional problems which shortened her career. It has happened to many singers for a variety of reasons. It doesn't make them "case studies." And how did we get onto the subject of vocal longevity - or Maria Callas? And what do you mean "we hardly need to get into specifics"? What need we get into?

You keep trying to put singers into "fachs" - it seems to be some kind of obsession, but it is a distortion of reality. Reality does not respect your neat little categories. Callas was not a "dramatic soprano/mezzo." She was not a "coloratura." She was not a "spinto." She was a soprano with a large voice and an extended range who developed a superb coloratura technique and could sing effectively such diverse roles as Armida, Lucia, Gilda, Leonora, Butterfly, Santuzza, Carmen, and Kundry. This versatility is universally acknowledged as one of her claims to fame - except, apparently, by you.

This thread is not supposed to be about Maria Callas, but if you are going to keep expressing eccentric notions about her, someone is bound to try to correct you. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with the rest of the world about anything you please. But facts are facts - and those, mister, are facts.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Oh please.
> 
> Callas is not a "case study" in _anything_. She was a great singer who had a peculiar personal combination of physical/emotional problems which shortened her career. It has happened to many singers for a variety of reasons. It doesn't make them "case studies." And how did we get onto the subject of vocal longevity - or Maria Callas? And what do you mean "we hardly need to get into specifics"? What need we get into?
> 
> ...


I'm going to answer this on a different thread


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'm going to answer this on a different thread


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

To get back to the comparison of two:
Sutherland could not be topped with her powerful and magnificent highs. To me she owns that category outright. Her trills also were exemplary -- a difficult thing to do if one is not to the manner borne. 
Marilyn Horne succeeded but had one helluva time learning to do good trills. It's really something you're born with, otherwise, it's tough going to develop it well. Sills too had it naturally.
Caballe, on the other hand, has some of the most magnificent diminuendos and legatos this side of Milanov -- queens both in this category. And now along comes Radvanovsky in our era to delight us with hers as well.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I didn't know Horne had trouble with trills. Hers were so perfect... like everything else she did in her prime. You knew Caballe was trilling, but it didn't didn't have the 4 dimensional quality of Sutherland or Sills To me her trills sounded more like a single note with very, very rapid vibrato instead of two notes.. No one singer had everything, in my opinion. Joan could trill on full tones and half tones ( I can't remember the right wording), which was amazing. I sometimes got tired of the sort of glottal, Spanish effect Caballe had in the middle of her voice. LIke she is shifting gears when she sings. On the other hand, Sutherland could get swoopy with her voice after the early 60's.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

In her early recordings from 1960s to early 1970s Caballe was more dramatic and extrovert in her performance style, her recordings were full of fire and emotion, on a dramatic performance scale during this time she would fall between Sutherland and Callas (with Callas being most dramatic). Later she transitioned back to more conventional delivery without the pyrotechnics after she had become well established.......one need only listen to the early recital discs and compare that to Sutherlands famous "art of the prima donna" and nothing there has the thrilling swagger early Caballe had...........

















BTW one of the great performances of the recent live Sony MET series is a 1968 Luisa Miller with Caballe that demonstrates the comments above, this can go right next to the Anna Moffo RCA set on your shelf.......


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

From 1967 studio recital aria from La Donna del Lago plus a Donizetti rarity from 69 studio recital, have you ever heard Joan sing like this.............?????????


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> From 1967 studio recital aria from La Donna del Lago plus a Donizetti rarity from 69 studio recital, have you ever heard Joan sing like this.............?????????


Before I answer, why can't I see the video's.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Pugg said:


> Before I answer, why can't I see the video's.


Those are audio only with no video content, but you can use your imagination (or like me watch TV with sound muted while working on computer and listening to stereo)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Those are audio only with no video content, but you can use your imagination (or like me watch TV with sound muted while working on computer and listening to stereo)


 DA.
I can hear a pin drop, but no sound either on this site of the pond .


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Good timing for me too. I have just finished listening to Muti's Puritani with Caballe and Alfredo Kraus (1980). I do prefer Sutherland and Pavarotti, but it's a near-run thing. Caballe is ravishing at times, though I don't find the agility or the top notes of Sutherland. Kraus loses more than Caballe in the comparison, but Muti is excellent. That said, I can't see Sutherland camping it up with Freddy Mercury for Barcelona, which was huge fun. I've been listening to some other Caballe as well, and really, what a wonderful singer!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Good timing for me too. I have just finished listening to Muti's Puritani with Caballe and Alfredo Kraus (1980). I do prefer Sutherland and Pavarotti, but it's a near-run thing. Caballe is ravishing at times, though I don't find the agility or the top notes of Sutherland. Kraus loses more than Caballe in the comparison, but Muti is excellent. That said, I can't see Sutherland camping it up with Freddy Mercury for Barcelona, which was huge fun. I've been listening to some other Caballe as well, and really, what a wonderful singer!


That's the whole point, they did a small numbers of the same roles, each have their own merits.
Depius le Jour from Louise by Caballe is second to _absolutely_ none as is the Siege of Corint / Giusto ciel!!.
But ......Turandot and Sermiramide are Dame Joan roles, to name a few :tiphat:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

In this clip from a concert early in her career Caballe infuses great dramatic effect into an aria from Roberto Devereux. She also was relatively normal sized and quite lovely here. Thanks Dark Angel for your posts. I wonder if Caballe' became a more self conscious performer after she put on so much weight. She was more involved when she was smaller in size.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

it's a funny coincidence that Sutherland boasts my favorite renditions of all three of Norma's arias, even though she is, overall, not suited to the entire role (too many dips into dramatic mezzo and moments of sheer nastiness to be her role).

Casta Diva and Ah Belo a Me Ritorna





Deh Non Volerli Vittime





overall, Caballe's singing had more heart, more melancholy (hence the comparison to stained glass). contrary to what people critics say, I felt a strong surge of formidable, glorious passion from Joan's voice, but paradoxically, there wasn't a lot of heart to it (it was more passion from the gut. a colder, more authoritative passion). Two of my favorite renditions of Caballe's are

D'amore al Dolce Impero 





Liberamente or Piangi (this aria is underrated as a whole)


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Pugg said:


> DA.
> I can hear a pin drop, but no sound either on this site of the pond .


Try a proxy site.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> it's a funny coincidence that Sutherland boasts my favorite renditions of all three of Norma's arias, even though she is, overall, not suited to the entire role (too many dips into dramatic mezzo and moments of sheer nastiness to be her role).
> 
> Casta Diva and Ah Belo a Me Ritorna
> 
> ...


Good obervations. Some of it could have to do with the fact that Joan was from the British Empire and Caballe' was from Barcelona. Joan was at heart a very steady, placid personality. These factors helped her have such a long, long career. She learned to act, but it wasn't something that came naturally to her. I think Norma got easier for her as she grew into middle age as the voice gained more weight from the middle down. Your hear that in her second studio Norma. I don't know how that projected in the house. Caballe' was more complex, I think. When she wanted to she could burn hot on stage, but I think this was inconsistent. She could project motherly affection really well on stage. I would kill to hear either sing Norma in their prime. The second clip of Sutherland you posted is divine. Her large, dark, round voice could sound very sad at times when the music called for it. This music could break your heart.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> In this clip from a concert early in her career Caballe infuses great dramatic effect into an aria from Roberto Devereux. She also was relatively normal sized and quite lovely here. Thanks Dark Angel for your posts. I wonder if Caballe' became a more self conscious performer after she put on so much weight. She was more involved when she was smaller in size.


Yes I hear the emotional anguish and heartbreak in her voice, even though I am not familiar with the lyrics of that aria, her vocal characterization effectively paints the image in my mind, wonderful deeply passionate portrayal for early Caballe.....

That is the difference I hear between the two singers in their early prime, Joan is superior in the technical execution of the written score, but early Caballe captures the unwritten emotional language that comes from the heart in a more vivid fashion, this is what makes certain singers speak to us on an intimate personal level.......

I lose this sensation later in Caballes career as she becomes mature and dare I say conventional, some of that fire and dramatic emotion has been lost or subdued......the 1960s material is very special


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

The big differences I hear between Sutherland and Caballe are these: 1.) Their vocal colors were very different. I hear Caballe as "black with glints of deep red" and Sutherland as either silver or gold, depending on the stage of her career. 2.) As the OP mentioned, Sutherland had a genuine trill whereas Caballe had to omit or "fake" hers. 3.) Caballe's voice was more a "full lyric soprano with agility," whereas Sutherland's was more a "full coloratura with dramatic possibilities." Consequently, Caballe is a singer I wouldn't mind hearing in roles with no coloratura at all in them, whereas I wouldn't particularly want to listen to Sutherland in music without coloratura, or in any music written later than Verdi's early-middle period (the period when he wrote RIGOLETTO, IL TROVATORE, and LA TRAVIATA). 4.) While both sopranos had good middle registers, Sutherland didn't really use any chest voice, whereas Caballe did, and probably overused it.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I didn't know Horne had trouble with trills. Hers were so perfect... like everything else she did in her prime. You knew Caballe was trilling, but it didn't didn't have the 4 dimensional quality of Sutherland or Sills To me her trills sounded more like a single note with very, very rapid vibrato instead of two notes.. No one singer had everything, in my opinion. Joan could trill on full tones and half tones ( I can't remember the right wording), which was amazing. I sometimes got tired of the sort of glottal, Spanish effect Caballe had in the middle of her voice. LIke she is shifting gears when she sings. On the other hand, Sutherland could get swoopy with her voice after the early 60's.


I hear what you're talking about in the middle of Caballe's voice, but I don't know that I'd call it "Spanish." I don't think there's anything distinctively "Spanish" about a glottal stop.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Good obervations. Some of it could have to do with the fact that *Joan was from the British Empire* and Caballe' was from Barcelona. *Joan was at heart a very steady, placid personality. These factors helped her have such a long, long career. She learned to act, but it wasn't something that came naturally to her.* I think Norma got easier for her as she grew into middle age as the voice gained more weight from the middle down. Your hear that in her second studio Norma. I don't know how that projected in the house. Caballe' was more complex, I think. When she wanted to she could burn hot on stage, but I think this was inconsistent. She could project motherly affection really well on stage. I would kill to hear either sing Norma in their prime. The second clip of Sutherland you posted is divine. Her large, dark, round voice could sound very sad at times when the music called for it. This music could break your heart.


exactly. it's precisely that aristocracy and poise to the voice which I love (in the world of music where every else is falling over swords and dying over their feelings. it all seems a bit ridiculous when you think about it lol)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> The big differences I hear between Sutherland and Caballe are these: 1.) Their vocal colors were very different. I hear Caballe as "black with glints of deep red" and Sutherland as either silver or gold, depending on the stage of her career. 2.) As the OP mentioned, Sutherland had a genuine trill whereas Caballe had to omit or "fake" hers. 3.) Caballe's voice was more a "full lyric soprano with agility," whereas Sutherland's was more a "full coloratura with dramatic possibilities." Consequently, Caballe is a singer I wouldn't mind hearing in roles with no coloratura at all in them, whereas I wouldn't particularly want to listen to Sutherland in music without coloratura, or in any music written later than Verdi's early-middle period (the period when he wrote RIGOLETTO, IL TROVATORE, and LA TRAVIATA). 4.) While both sopranos had good middle registers, Sutherland didn't really use any chest voice, whereas Caballe did, and probably overused it.


Said like an expert critic on all points.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> The big differences I hear between Sutherland and Caballe are these: 1.) Their vocal colors were very different. I hear Caballe as "black with glints of deep red" and Sutherland as either silver or gold, depending on the stage of her career. 2.) As the OP mentioned, Sutherland had a genuine trill whereas Caballe had to omit or "fake" hers. 3.) Caballe's voice was more a "full lyric soprano with agility," whereas Sutherland's was more a "full coloratura with dramatic possibilities." Consequently, Caballe is a singer I wouldn't mind hearing in roles with no coloratura at all in them, whereas I wouldn't particularly want to listen to Sutherland in music without coloratura, or in any music written later than Verdi's early-middle period (the period when he wrote RIGOLETTO, IL TROVATORE, and LA TRAVIATA). 4.) While both sopranos had good middle registers, Sutherland didn't really use any chest voice, whereas Caballe did, and probably overused it.


You are good, you are.:tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Exactly. it's precisely that aristocracy and poise to the voice which I love (in the world of music where every else is falling over swords and dying over their feelings. *it all seems a bit ridiculous when you think about it *lol)


Indeed. Since opera is an absurd, unrealistic art form which deals largely with unlikely situations and overwrought emotions, we can all be grateful that Dame Joan kept her down-under, down-home, square-jawed, stiff-upper-lipped approach to her art and never descended to the unseemly passion of a Callas or a Sills. I guess those two never thought about it.

LOL.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

A thank you to both SeattleOperaFan and Pugg. 

What I would be interested in knowing is this: how do others hear Caballe's vocal color? I hear "black with deep red glints," whereas I read where someone else heard "lilac"!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Indeed. Since opera is an absurd, unrealistic art form which deals largely with unlikely situations and overwrought emotions, we can all be grateful that Dame Joan kept her down-under, down-home, square-jawed, stiff-upper-lipped approach to her art and never descended to the unseemly passion of a Callas or a Sills. I guess those two never thought about it.
> LOL.


I never said I wanted _everyone_ to be like that, only that I can appreciate it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

: I just published my latest video on Caballe for my Toastmasters Club on Youtube. Almost all are totally ignorant of opera except for the 18 or so speeches I've done on the subject. I have gotten 6 people from my two clubs to attend an opera with me for the first time. They were very impressed with Caballe, watching the clips I played with rapt attention. I made a mistake in my speech but corrected the information in my notes.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> : I just published my latest video on Caballe for my Toastmasters Club on Youtube. Almost all are totally ignorant of opera except for the 18 or so speeches I've done on the subject. I have gotten 6 people from my two clubs to attend an opera with me for the first time. They were very impressed with Caballe, watching the clips I played with rapt attention. I made a mistake in my speech but corrected the information in my notes.


I spotted it right away, lot of roles


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> : I just published my latest video on Caballe for my Toastmasters Club on Youtube. Almost all are totally ignorant of opera except for the 18 or so speeches I've done on the subject. I have gotten 6 people from my two clubs to attend an opera with me for the first time. They were very impressed with Caballe, watching the clips I played with rapt attention. I made a mistake in my speech but corrected the information in my notes.


I've just watched the first couple minutes, and the presentation looks great! I love it when rather "unlikely" people show an interest in a subject that's important to you.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I've just watched the first couple minutes, and the presentation looks great! I love it when rather "unlikely" people show an interest in a subject that's important to you.


My prsentation is too watered down for this group. I feel it is a calling. I've given up being evangelical for Jayzus like I was raised to be and am evangelical for opera now.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> My prsentation is too watered down for this group. I feel it is a calling. I've given up being evangelical for Jayzus like I was raised to and am evangelical for opera now.


Well, but to a certain extent it is necessary to tailor one's message to one's audience. I don't think that's the same thing as watering the message down.


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