# Do you think we should do a 2nd edition of the TalkClassical most recommended operas?



## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Please choose one answer as to if we should do a 2015 edition of the 2011 poll.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Isn't that in progress now?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I was not around for the 2011 poll so this is new to me and I have no idea what it consists of.
Recommended by whom? Me? The majority? Or do you just mean our favorites?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

http://www.talkclassical.com/36891-2015-tc-most-recommended.html

As I said, already in progress. We're at present voting for our favourite recording of Shostakovich's *Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk*.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Isn't that in progress now?


I understood the OP to mean the operas themselves, not recordings of them? I suppose a vote on the _recordings_ of the new top 100 operas could then happen. I have read a few posts in which people expressed surprise that a certain opera was picked. Some were voted for by very few people, who may have since disappeared from the forum: when the time comes to vote for recordings of these unloved works, the result may well be a collective shrug, or maybe a winner picked by the one or two people who know the opera well enough to vote. Personally, I was surprised to see an opera whose name escapes me, composed by one Saariaho, and further down the list there was a certain Shreker* who I'd also never heard of. I'm not suggesting that these composers and their works are unworthy just because _I've_ never heard of them, but the fact that to my knowledge nobody else is raving about them on the opera forum is indicative of a lack of interest. A new vote might at least produce a result more representative of the interests of currently active members.

*Also Corigliano, and Krenek. I know I'm totally showing my ignorance here, but I haven't noticed anyone enthusing about these composers. Should these composers' works really be in the 'most recommended' list if nobody currently active appears to know of or care about them?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I understood the OP to mean the operas themselves, not recordings of them? I suppose a vote on the _recordings_ of the new top 100 operas could then happen. I have read a few posts in which people expressed surprise that a certain opera was picked. Some were voted for by very few people, who may have since disappeared from the forum: when the time comes to vote for recordings of these unloved works, the result may well be a collective shrug, or maybe a winner picked by the one or two people who know the opera well enough to vote. Personally, I was surprised to see an opera whose name escapes me, composed by one Saariaho, and further down the list there was a certain Shreker who I'd also never heard of. I'm not suggesting that these composers and their works are unworthy just because _I've_ never heard of them, but the fact that to my knowledge nobody else is raving about them on the opera forum is indicative of a lack of interest. A new vote might at least produce a result more representative of the interests of currently active members.


There is a thread on the second hundred most recommended operas. There are quite a few in that list that I would have expected to be in the first hundred.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> There is a thread on the second hundred most recommended operas. There are quite a few in that list that I would have expected to be in the first hundred.


Same here. Lakmé, Les Pêcheurs de Perles, Les Huguenots, Guillaume Tell, Iphigénie en Tauride, La Juive, La Favorite, L'Africaine, Hérodiade, Le Prophète, L'etoile du Nord and Robert le Diable should all be in the top hundred, and doubtless many more I'm unfamiliar with. Farewell then, Lulu, Wozzeck, Jenufa, Turandot, Salome, Elektra... :devil: Of course, other people will have different ideas about which operas should be promoted and which relegated. That's the point of voting on them!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Be advised, it's mucho work.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> There is a thread on the second hundred most recommended operas. There are quite a few in that list that I would have expected to be in the first hundred.


Yes, judging by some of the conversations here in recent years, I feel the top 100 list might be a little different from the existing one. By and large it's a good list, however there's a handful that seem surprisingly high (given that they are seldom ever talked about here), and a good handful that seem very low. I've seen and enjoyed many operas that aren't even on the top 272 list. Some well known composers don't even make the existing 272.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> There is a thread on the second hundred most recommended operas. There are quite a few in that list that I would have expected to be in the first hundred.


Yes, I started that in the hope it might generate a discussion such as this. It would certainly keep the forum active for a while. Hard work, as Itullian says.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Be advised, it's mucho work.


It's lucky that Queen of the Nerds has volunteered, then! :angel:


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> It's lucky that Queen of the Nerds has volunteered, then! :angel:


Thank you! It'll take about a week from the end of this poll to make the list of operas to vote on.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I understood the OP to mean the operas themselves, not recordings of them? I suppose a vote on the _recordings_ of the new top 100 operas could then happen. I have read a few posts in which people expressed surprise that a certain opera was picked. Some were voted for by very few people, who may have since disappeared from the forum: when the time comes to vote for recordings of these unloved works, the result may well be a collective shrug, or maybe a winner picked by the one or two people who know the opera well enough to vote. Personally, I was surprised to see an opera whose name escapes me, composed by one Saariaho, and further down the list there was a certain Shreker* who I'd also never heard of. I'm not suggesting that these composers and their works are unworthy just because _I've_ never heard of them, but the fact that to my knowledge nobody else is raving about them on the opera forum is indicative of a lack of interest. A new vote might at least produce a result more representative of the interests of currently active members.
> 
> *Also Corigliano, and Krenek. I know I'm totally showing my ignorance here, but I haven't noticed anyone enthusing about these composers. Should these composers' works really be in the 'most recommended' list if nobody currently active appears to know of or care about them?


It's voting on the operas themselves, not recordings.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Queen of the Nerds said:


> Thank you! It'll take about a week from the end of this poll to make the list of operas to vote on.


And people will be able to nominate operas even if they aren't on the Top 100/ Top 272 list already?


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> I was not around for the 2011 poll so this is new to me and I have no idea what it consists of.
> Recommended by whom? Me? The majority? Or do you just mean our favorites?


http://www.talkclassical.com/11676-talk-classical-top-272-a.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/13968-tc-most-recommended-operas.html

Here are two links to help you understand the 2011 poll.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I am confused. In viewing the 2011 why would things like Don Carlo and La Boheme and Madama Butterfly and Tosca be missing from the list (as examples?) So it looks like we are not expected to make our own list of our favorite operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

100 of anything is too much for old folks like me to contemplate. I can handle ten or fifteen, and then I'm ready for a nap.

Have fun, everyone.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2015)

If so, it should be done in the same way as the other lists, and it should be done in the general section. There are a lot of opera fans that are turned off by the opera section.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Just a suggestion: we could use the Operabase list of top 100 most performed operas in the world  instead of having to create our own list. It would save time and it's probably more representative of the general public taste.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Camillorf said:


> Just a suggestion: we could use the Operabase list of top 100 most performed operas in the world  instead of having to create our own list. It would save time and it's probably more representative of the general public taste.


I've noticed that it would be a pretty strained comparison to relate the listeners here to the public.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> I've noticed that it would be a pretty strained comparison to relate the listeners here to the public.


That's a valid point, but I still think that based on _popularity_ this list is probably as good as it gets. Ultimately we want operas that are familiar to as many forum members as possible. Just a thought


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

nathanb said:


> There are a lot of opera fans that are turned off by the opera section.


Would you care to expand on this?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> 100 of anything is too much for old folks like me to contemplate. I can handle ten or fifteen, and then I'm ready for a nap.
> 
> Have fun, everyone.


Sleep well and do count sheep's and not opera's


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Figleaf said:


> I understood the OP to mean the operas themselves, not recordings of them? I suppose a vote on the _recordings_ of the new top 100 operas could then happen. I have read a few posts in which people expressed surprise that a certain opera was picked. Some were voted for by very few people, who may have since disappeared from the forum: when the time comes to vote for recordings of these unloved works, the result may well be a collective shrug, or maybe a winner picked by the one or two people who know the opera well enough to vote. Personally, I was surprised to see an opera whose name escapes me, composed by one Saariaho, and further down the list there was a certain Shreker* who I'd also never heard of. I'm not suggesting that these composers and their works are unworthy just because _I've_ never heard of them, but the fact that to my knowledge nobody else is raving about them on the opera forum is indicative of a lack of interest. A new vote might at least produce a result more representative of the interests of currently active members.
> 
> *Also Corigliano, and Krenek. I know I'm totally showing my ignorance here, but I haven't noticed anyone enthusing about these composers. Should these composers' works really be in the 'most recommended' list if nobody currently active appears to know of or care about them?


I certainly know and care about Saariaho, Schreker and Krenek. And, to a lesser extent, I also know and care a little bit about Corigliano.

The whole point here is, how many people will participate in the proceedings today, as compared to four years ago?. Not very many, I think. And of these people, how many will know about Saariaho, anyhow?. 

I mean, if it's for fun, that's fine. But the results will have just about the same utility and meaning that the current ones have.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> Just a suggestion: we could use the Operabase list of top 100 most performed operas in the world  instead of having to create our own list. It would save time and it's probably more representative of the general public taste.


I think the point of a list of 'most recommended operas' is that they have been recommended by people on the forum. Such a list, in updated form, would be representative of the works that members here know and enjoy, and want to share with people. A list of whichever operas are most widely performed would take the focus away from the members of this forum and would simply be redundant, surely?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

schigolch said:


> I certainly know and care about Saariaho, Schreker and Krenek. And, to a lesser extent, I also know and care a little bit about Corigliano.
> 
> The whole point here is, how many people will participate in the proceedings today, as compared to four years ago?. Not very many, I think. And of these people, how many will know about Saariaho, anyhow?.
> 
> I mean, if it's for fun, that's fine. But the results will have just about the same utility and meaning that the current ones have.


I think the old list is totally valid as a reflection of the tastes of people active at that time, 2011. A new one wouldn't necessarily be any better, but it might be more relevant to people currently on the forum. Then again, there may be a lot of lurkers, or opera fans who prefer to post in the main forums, and these groups may contain a disproportionate number of fans of Krenek, Saariaho, Corigliano and Schreker. In that case, it would indeed be unfortunate if those composers' works were struck from the Top 272.

Is the opera forum less active than four years ago, or just less focused on big projects like 'most recommended' lists?


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I think the point of a list of 'most recommended operas' is that they have been recommended by people on the forum. Such a list, in updated form, would be representative of the works that members here know and enjoy, and want to share with people. A list of whichever operas are most widely performed would take the focus away from the members of this forum and would simply be redundant, surely?


I was under the impression that the list was just a means to an end, in the sense that it was created for the sole purpose of generating another list of recommend CDs and DVDs based on it. However it seems like that is not the case, so fair enough.

I still think the voting method is flawed. From what I understand, all it takes is for a couple of members to choose an opera as their number one favourite, and it will probably make the list of top 100 most recommend by forum members, in spite of nobody else on the forum being familiar with the work. If this is really the case then I suspect we will be stuck with the same problem and end up with something like Moses und Aron by Schoenberg ahead of Norma and Falstaff which, judging by the voting on the most recommend recordings thread, is hardly representative of this forum's members tastes.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I don't think is less active.

But what is the goal of repeating the project?. Again, if it's for the fun of people participating today in the opera sub-forum, I guess that's fine. Then, we can publish our list of recommended operas, version 2011, and our list of recommended operas, version 2015. 

However, what we mean by 'recommended'?. Let's imagine next time I go to the opera, I comment to my fellow fans there: "You know what: TC recommends in positions 1 and 2 of its list of most recommended operas, _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ and _Rigoletto_". What do you think they are going to say: "Wow, great news!"?.

Personally, I would be somewhat more interested if we launch, for instance, a project to try and compile a list of, say, 20 operas that will represent for the newbie a vision of the history of the genre, from 1600 to 2015. And yes, along with recommended versions too.

But I wish you the best if you decide to embark again on the 272 opera recommendation list, or whatever number you think is the right one. Have fun.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

schigolch said:


> I don't think is less active.
> 
> But what is the goal of repeating the project?. Again, if it's for the fun of people participating today in the opera sub-forum, I guess that's fine. Then, we can publish our list of recommended operas, version 2011, and our list of recommended operas, version 2015.
> 
> ...


Yes, it would be for the enjoyment of people currently active on the forum. I know that 'recommended' is a slightly pompous word and suggests that we think the rest of the world is hanging on our every word, waiting to hear which operas they are allowed to go and see. Perhaps 'favourite operas' would be better, if it gets rid of any annoying pseudo-objectivity.

A top 20 operas representing a history of opera sounds very interesting. It's a scholarly type of project and would demand an actual scholar to oversee it. I don't think I would be able to contribute anything of value, but I would follow it with interest.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> I was under the impression that the list was just a means to an end, in the sense that it was created for the sole purpose of generating another list of recommend CDs and DVDs based on it. However it seems like that is not the case, so fair enough.
> 
> I still think the voting method is flawed. From what I understand, all it takes is for a couple of members to choose an opera as their number one favourite, and it will probably make the list of top 100 most recommend by forum members, in spite of nobody else on the forum being familiar with the work. If this is really the case then I suspect we will be stuck with the same problem and end up with something like Moses und Aron by Schoenberg ahead of Norma and Falstaff which, judging by the voting on the most recommend recordings thread, is hardly representative of this forum's members tastes.


I think the Schoenberg problem is impossible to eradicate- except of course that these days, it may be some other composer who is a minority interest among TC opera fans and causes a 'problem' by ranking too highly on the list. No voting system is perfect (so I'm told, I don't look into these things much) so I suppose there will always be anomalies.

There's nothing wrong with choosing a list of operas simply as a jumping off point for a list of recommended recordings of those operas, but I think it would yield different results to a 'most recommended operas' poll to which recommendations of recordings were secondary. This is simply because some operas have had more, better, and/or better known recordings made of them: this isn't necessarily a reflection of the qualities of the operas themselves, but it would be a major influence on a list whose main purpose was to generate CD recommendations, and less of an influence on a list which simply aimed to rank the operas themselves.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Can we do something different with the list? Just a list of 100 operas is unwieldy, unimaginative and simply a pile of whatever we all agree on. Could we have categories? Perhaps by genre (historical, romantic, tragic, comic, language, etc.)? It might make it more fun and spark more interesting debates.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> And people will be able to nominate operas even if they aren't on the Top 100/ Top 272 list already?


I'll make a new list, and we'll vote on that. See the above links for more information.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

anmhe said:


> Can we do something different with the list? Just a list of 100 operas is unwieldy, unimaginative and simply a pile of whatever we all agree on. Could we have categories? Perhaps by genre (historical, romantic, tragic, comic, language, etc.)? It might make it more fun and spark more interesting debates.


I think that we should do the main list first, and then the categories like you described. The categories sound fun and interesting, so thank you for the suggestion!


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Yes, it would be for the enjoyment of people currently active on the forum. I know that 'recommended' is a slightly pompous word and suggests that we think the rest of the world is hanging on our every word, waiting to hear which operas they are allowed to go and see. Perhaps 'favourite operas' would be better, if it gets rid of any annoying pseudo-objectivity.
> 
> A top 20 operas representing a history of opera sounds very interesting. It's a scholarly type of project and would demand an actual scholar to oversee it. I don't think I would be able to contribute anything of value, but I would follow it with interest.


You're right! I like that idea very much, and will try to include it into the supplementary lists.
Also for "recommended" I mean TalkClassical most recommended. I do not expect that everyone will share TalkClassical's opinions.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Perhaps _members' favourites_ rather than recommended or best?

Because surely a list can only ever be subjective until someone invents an opera tape measure.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> I think the *Schoenberg problem* is impossible to eradicate.


No such thing...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> Perhaps _members' favourites_ rather than recommended or best?
> 
> Because surely a list can only ever be subjective until someone invents an opera tape measure.


Excellent answer. :tiphat:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> I think the Schoenberg problem is impossible to eradicate- except of course that these days, it may be some other composer who is a minority interest among TC opera fans and causes a 'problem' by ranking too highly on the list. No voting system is perfect (so I'm told, I don't look into these things much) so I suppose there will always be anomalies.


Moses und Aron was produced to some success last year in the UK, and again this year in Berlin and also later this year in Paris. It is considered among the best works of 20th century modernism and the market contains several recordings on CD and DVD.

Its position in the list is a little higher than one might expect given its lack of mainstream popularity, but perhaps not considering its importance for the artform. Of Schoenberg's operas, the one-act monodrama Erwartung is the most frequently performed (most famously, perhaps, by Jessye Norman), and both it and Moses und Aron rank higher on that list of performances than anything by Meyerbeer.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Moses und Aron was produced to some success last year in the UK, and again this year in Berlin and also later this year in Paris. It is considered among the best works of 20th century modernism and the market contains several recordings on CD and DVD.
> 
> Its position in the list is a little higher than one might expect given its lack of mainstream popularity, but perhaps not considering its importance for the artform. Of Schoenberg's operas, the one-act monodrama Erwartung is the most frequently performed (most famously, perhaps, by Jessye Norman), and both it and Moses und Aron rank higher on that list of performances than anything by Meyerbeer.


I'm no fan of *Moses and Aaron*, but I'd go along with your assessment. I'm not sure I'd include any of Meyerbeer's empty pieces in a top 100.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

While I voted "yes" for a new poll, I shrug thinking about the limits of these polls. While the top n hundred may elicit some discussions, my big disappointment comes from the poll of the most recommended DVDs. I understand how this polls are made, and I also acknowledge it's a matter of who and how many people are voting, still I am a bit sad that for example the winner in Traviata is a DVD I threw in the garbage. In this case, I think that is the worst singing in Violetta's role, at least in all the recordings I have been able to listen though CDs, DVDs, or youtube. Come on, there are so many wonderful Traviatas on DVD...
I have high esteem for this forum as a whole, and not only, still as an older newbie in opera, I thought I could rely on this polls when I try a new opera DVD. Now I doubt.
For Il Barbiere di Siviglia, again the one who win is the most flawed one, as both Maria Bayo and the guy singing in Figaro's role are far from, what I hope their best days. Juan Diego Florez singing is awesome, but he can't save his less lucky colleagues.
In the end it's _vox populi/vox_ _dei_ rule


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Also Lulu is very important too! Berg's piece is revolutionary as well.



Mahlerian said:


> Moses und Aron was produced to some success last year in the UK, and again this year in Berlin and also later this year in Paris. It is considered among the best works of 20th century modernism and the market contains several recordings on CD and DVD.
> 
> Its position in the list is a little higher than one might expect given its lack of mainstream popularity, but perhaps not considering its importance for the artform. Of Schoenberg's operas, the one-act monodrama Erwartung is the most frequently performed (most famously, perhaps, by Jessye Norman), and both it and Moses und Aron rank higher on that list of performances than anything by Meyerbeer.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm no fan of *Moses and Aaron*, but I'd go along with your assessment. I'm not sure I'd include any of Meyerbeer's empty pieces in a top 100.


Meyerbeer's 'empty' pieces need to be filled with great singers- that's the 'Meyerbeer problem'. The 'Schoenberg problem' is that certain operas are perhaps more admired than listened to, or at least they are listened to by different people (e.g. Mahlerian) from those who regularly post in the opera forum. This assumes that what is written on the opera forum is a fair reflection of what participants actually listen to- I don't see why it wouldn't be.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Meyerbeer's 'empty' pieces need to be filled with great singers- that's the 'Meyerbeer problem'. The 'Schoenberg problem' is that certain operas are perhaps more admired than listened to, or at least they are listened to by different people (e.g. Mahlerian) from those who regularly post in the opera forum. This assumes that what is written on the opera forum is a fair reflection of what participants actually listen to- I don't see why it wouldn't be.


Opera Rara has been doing an exceptional Meyerbeer series recently but still voices or not the operas still don't compare to Schoenberg's innovations in terms of compositional and religious style.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree with Don Fatale in calling it _Members' Favourites_ but it's a hell of a job. We had several people, including mods and admin, working on it last time.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

What is the purpose of ranking these operas? 

Is it for fun, like Schigolch suggested, or are there more serious purposes?

Do all members who contribute to the ranking process have the same outcome in mind when they contribute to the voting process?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> Meyerbeer's 'empty' pieces need to be filled with great singers- that's the 'Meyerbeer problem'. *The 'Schoenberg problem' is that certain operas are perhaps more admired than listened to*, or at least they are listened to by different people (e.g. Mahlerian) from those who regularly post in the opera forum. This assumes that what is written on the opera forum is a fair reflection of what participants actually listen to- I don't see why it wouldn't be.


I only admired the work after listening to it, and do in fact listen to it not infrequently. I read an anecdote about a couple who went to their first opera last year; it was Moses und Aron in the Welsh National Opera's production, and they loved it. All the reviews I read praised the emotional power of the score while criticizing the production heavily.

If you don't like it, that's fine, and I understand that as an opera that's not focused on singers, it's definitely not your taste even putting aside the uncomfortable idiom.

I don't participate in the opera forum as much not because I don't love opera; I do, and find much to enjoy throughout both the popular and less-than-popular operatic repertoire. I don't participate as much because I approach it from a somewhat different perspective than many of the people here.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2015)

I certainly listen to Moses Und Aron more than Norma. Or is the Schoenberg problem actually that all Schoenberg fans are liars? :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sabrina said:


> While I voted "yes" for a new poll, I shrug thinking about the limits of these polls. While the top n hundred may elicit some discussions, my big disappointment comes from the poll of the most recommended DVDs. I understand how this polls are made, and I also acknowledge it's a matter of who and how many people are voting, still I am a bit sad that for example the winner in Traviata is a DVD I threw in the garbage. In this case, I think that is the worst singing in Violetta's role, at least in all the recordings I have been able to listen though CDs, DVDs, or youtube. Come on, there are so many wonderful Traviatas on DVD...
> I have high esteem for this forum as a whole, and not only, still as an older newbie in opera, I thought I could rely on this polls when I try a new opera DVD. Now I doubt.
> For Il Barbiere di Siviglia, again the one who win is the most flawed one, as both Maria Bayo and the guy singing in Figaro's role are far from, what I hope their best days. Juan Diego Florez singing is awesome, but he can't save his less lucky colleagues.
> In the end it's _vox populi/vox_ _dei_ rule


Never rely on popularity polls for making decisions. They're a game that people seem to enjoy, they tell us something about what people like, and they may be springboards for conversation. That's the extent of their value. If I want to know what performance might be worth hearing or owning, I'll need to know _why_ people think so, in addition to how many people think so. But if I really want meaningful, useful advice, I'll ask someone, or read someone, whose judgment I can trust. Ultimately, of course, I'll rely upon my own judgment, which will not be identical to anyone's (although sometimes it's so nearly identical it's scary. Hi GregM!).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Wood said:


> What is the purpose of ranking these operas?
> 
> Is it for fun, like Schigolch suggested, or are there more serious purposes?
> 
> Do all members who contribute to the ranking process have the same outcome in mind when they contribute to the voting process?


For me it's fun and it brings new operas to my attention. I don't take it seriously.


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## Clayton (Nov 10, 2013)

sospiro said:


> For me it's fun and it brings new operas to my attention. I don't take it seriously.


I'll echo this.

I'll echo this.

I'll echo this.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> I only admired the work after listening to it, and do in fact listen to it not infrequently. I read an anecdote about a couple who went to their first opera last year; it was Moses und Aron in the Welsh National Opera's production, and they loved it. All the reviews I read praised the emotional power of the score while criticizing the production heavily.
> 
> *If you don't like it, that's fine, *and I understand that as an opera that's not focused on singers, it's definitely not your taste even putting aside the uncomfortable idiom.
> 
> I don't participate in the opera forum as much not because I don't love opera; I do, and find much to enjoy throughout both the popular and less-than-popular operatic repertoire. I don't participate as much because I approach it from a somewhat different perspective than many of the people here.


I haven't actually heard anything from Moses und Aron, so I'm not sure whether I would like it or not! It was one of those modern operas that seemed to be oddly high ranking given its presumed lack of popularity on the forum- hence the idea of a new Top 100. If, however, there is a 'silent majority' of opera forum lurkers who are really into the modern stuff and prepared to vote for it, then Moses und Aron may remain among the top choices, and that's OK by me.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Considering the lack of post-1950's operas we really need a second list badly. It pains me a lot when I don't see any Stockhausen at all.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Is there anyone on here now who took part in the original? I can't remember how we did it. Each choose our own Top Five and get other members to vote for two of them? Crikey it's giving me a headache just thinking about it!


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

sospiro said:


> Is there anyone on here now who took part in the original? I can't remember how we did it. Each choose our own Top Five and get other members to vote for two of them? Crikey it's giving me a headache just thinking about it!


Please see post 15, second link.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Wood said:


> What is the purpose of ranking these operas?
> 
> Is it for fun, like Schigolch suggested, or are there more serious purposes?
> 
> Do all members who contribute to the ranking process have the same outcome in mind when they contribute to the voting process?


It is for fun, and to see what members like, and please see post 15, second link for a clarification of the process.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

schigolch said:


> I don't think is less active.
> 
> But what is the goal of repeating the project?. Again, if it's for the fun of people participating today in the opera sub-forum, I guess that's fine. Then, we can publish our list of recommended operas, version 2011, and our list of recommended operas, version 2015.
> 
> ...


The only reason I call it "most recommended" is because that is what is in the title of the previous list.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Meyerbeer's 'empty' pieces need to be filled with great singers- that's the 'Meyerbeer problem'.


So do the operas of Bellini, Donizetti and Rossini, but I don't find them in the least bit empty.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nathanb said:


> I certainly listen to Moses Und Aron more than Norma. Or is the Schoenberg problem actually that all Schoenberg fans are liars? :lol:


No the Schoenberg problem is that (some) Schoenberg lovers have this insufferable habit of looking down on Bellini lovers :tiphat:


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

To me, these lists are:

a) about discovering new music. The various TC lists gave me a real voyage of discovery. Knowing what my peers (i.e. forum members) like gives a possibility that I might like it too. I have a spreadsheet for keeping track of my attempt to listen to everything in every list! Great fun for someone with a voracious appetite for music.

b) a fun way to engage in conversations while helping to build a new list of favourites.

c) a way for every member to have their say and have a chance to contribute to something.

I don't have _too many_ gripes about the existing list, but it would be good to see how tastes change as the major opera house repertories change. For example, some operas such as Dialogue of the Carmelites (Poulenc & Ravel in general) have come into fashion again. And of course it's entirely possible that a newly written opera could make the list!


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> No the Schoenberg problem is that (some) Schoenberg lovers have this insufferable habit of looking down on Bellini lovers :tiphat:


Who? Can you point one out who's guilty of that? I haven't seen one yet.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Who? Can you point one out who's guilty of that? I haven't seen one yet.


It's called reverse stereotyping. Since there is no empirical evidence... such are the fantasies of those who are old school in nature.

I listen to Schoenberg and Meyerbeer, both without hesitation. Look down? No but I love both composers and why not?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Be advised, it's mucho work.


I think you scared topic starter Itullian:lol:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I really am very supportive of this trend.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> I really am very supportive of this trend.


Scaring people away?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Azol said:


> Scaring people away?


No worries... I don't know what happened to the OP on this issue.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> No worries... I don't know what happened to the OP on this issue.


It didn't scare me; it's just that compiling a list for a massive topic such as this takes time, which is why I haven't posted it yet.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Queen of the Nerds said:


> It didn't scare me; it's just that compiling a list for a massive topic such as this takes time, which is why I haven't posted it yet.


Ah I see... so you are going to provide us with a list of operas which we can select from or are we to provide suggestions for which operas are to be within this list?  I am confounded here.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> Ah I see... so you are going to provide us with a list of operas which we can select from or are we to provide suggestions for which operas are to be within this list?  I am confounded here.


I will provide a list.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Queen of the Nerds said:


> I will provide a list.


Then it won't be the 'Talk Classical 100 Favourite/ Most Recommended Operas'. If operas can only be chosen from a preselected list compiled by one member, it should really be called 'Queen of the Nerds' Top Operas' or (after former member science's successful series of polls) 'Queen of the Nerds' Totally Random Opera Poll'.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Then it won't be the 'Talk Classical 100 Favourite/ Most Recommended Operas'. If operas can only be chosen from a preselected list compiled by one member, it should really be called 'Queen of the Nerds' Top Operas' or (after former member science's successful series of polls) 'Queen of the Nerds' Totally Random Opera Poll'.


The list will be based on the previous edition list; it just takes forever to type it out!
So, it's not _my_ list; it's a list based on the previous list and maybe a few more operas, too.
To see the list and its diversity of operas, please see post 15.
All the best.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Queen of the Nerds said:


> The list will be based on the previous edition list; it just takes forever to type it out!
> So, it's not _my_ list; it's a list based on the previous list and maybe a few more operas, too.
> To see the list and its diversity of operas, please see post 15.
> All the best.


I'm afraid I don't really understand what you are proposing and how you intend to go about it. However, I wish you the best of luck with it.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Neither do I. Sounds like QotN list to me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Queen of the Nerds said:


> The list will be based on the previous edition list; it just takes forever to type it out!
> So, it's not _my_ list; it's a list based on the previous list and maybe a few more operas, too.
> To see the list and its diversity of operas, please see post 15.
> All the best.


Just do it, you will see they come voting as soon as you start.....:tiphat:


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Why not do something similar to the other TC Most Recommended works threads I've seen: don't start with any kind of "list" that users must choose from, but instead have everyone nominate 10 operas (with position 1 getting 10 points, position 10 getting 1 point) and then out of the 10 operas that receive the most points, users rank the 5 that they like best which determines the final ranking. This way there aren't any set parameters based on past lists, and it truly reflects the taste of current active posters.


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## Creatio (Jul 2, 2015)

It sounds good, Faustian.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I think a personal top 10 is too few for most knowledgeable opera fans, we're barely beginning our lists! Particularly if we want to get a couple of hundred different operas listed. Somewhere between 20 and 50 each? Aside from that adjustment, this is the format I'd go for.

Reading the thread from last time (correct me if I'm wrong), if you weren't around during the period when a top ten was nominated (let's say on vacation) you were left voting for the minor places later.

How many people are likely to vote? What's the scale of the job?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Faustian said:


> Why not do something similar to the other TC Most Recommended works threads I've seen: don't start with any kind of "list" that users must choose from, but instead have everyone nominate 10 operas (with position 1 getting 10 points, position 10 getting 1 point) and then out of the 10 operas that receive the most points, users rank the 5 that they like best which determines the final ranking. This way there aren't any set parameters based on past lists, and it truly reflects the taste of current active posters.


For the String Quartet list, I believe the points weren't scored 1-10 but 5-14 (or something like that). So just having the work make your list was a big deal.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm looking forward to joining the voting this time around . I was a fledgling opera noob last time....I had maybe a top 3 opera list out of hearing a half dozen plus a few additional highlights. Now I will have no problem compiling and/or voting, however the process goes.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> I think a personal top 10 is too few for most knowledgeable opera fans, we're barely beginning our lists! Particularly if we want to get a couple of hundred different operas listed. Somewhere between 20 and 50 each? Aside from that adjustment, this is the format I'd go for.
> 
> Reading the thread from last time (correct me if I'm wrong), if you weren't around during the period when a top ten was nominated (let's say on vacation) you were left voting for the minor places later.
> 
> How many people are likely to vote? What's the scale of the job?


It would be 10 operas per round. So round 1, everyone nominates their 10 favorite operas, then vote on the ones that make the list. Round 2, everyone nominates 10 more of their favorite operas that haven't been on the list, so on and so forth.

The more voters the better right? So it might be a good idea to start the thread in the main forum for voting and the final list could be stickied to the opera section.



GreenMamba said:


> For the String Quartet list, I believe the points weren't scored 1-10 but 5-14 (or something like that). So just having the work make your list was a big deal.


Yeah, scaling the points like that is something that could be easily done.


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## Creatio (Jul 2, 2015)

Faustian said:


> The more voters the better right? So it might be a good idea to start the thread in the main forum for voting and the final list could be stickied to the opera section.


Yes, you are right! 

I would like take a part, but I´m afraid that I don´t know many operas missing in the first recommended list.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2015)

I would only be in favor of doing it (1) in an already proven format (preferably the general TC Top Recommended style and (2) in the general section where the widest diversity of posters will participate. 

I'm afraid I probably know more operas that didn't make the current list than I know operas on the actual list :/


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I've just read through the thread that created the previous list.
http://www.talkclassical.com/10924-tc-100-top-recommended.html

I'm concerned that if it's like the first run of this, if somebody happens to be away for a week, they get no say about the top ten. If someone is away on a later week they have no say in (for example) the 11-20 positions.

Can't we just submit our lists and aggregate them?


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> I've just read through the thread that created the previous list.
> http://www.talkclassical.com/10924-tc-100-top-recommended.html
> 
> I'm concerned that if it's like the first run of this, if somebody happens to be away for a week, they get no say about the top ten. If someone is away on a later week they have no say in (for example) the 11-20 positions.
> ...


So if someone is away for a week, you'd rather them have no say in the top 1-200?

Also, some people actually use these threads as learning experiences. The progressive nature of it can result in some good fun.

Tried and true methods.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Crossing my fingers we have more contemporary operas in this new list. The current list is lacking in operas composed after 1950s.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

nathanb said:


> So if someone is away for a week, you'd rather them have no say in the top 1-200?
> Also, some people actually use these threads as learning experiences. The progressive nature of it can result in some good fun.
> Tried and true methods.


Who said it has to be done in a single week? Not me! That's just silly. Except that's what happened last time with the top 10. That's really the tried and true method? It's true that it was a tried method.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

nathanb said:


> I would only be in favor of doing it (1) in an already proven format (preferably the general TC Top Recommended style and (2) in the general section where the widest diversity of posters will participate.
> 
> I'm afraid I probably know more operas that didn't make the current list than I know operas on the actual list :/


Interesting suggestions- apart from not putting it in the opera forum, which is simply perverse!

At the risk of complicating things unnecessarily, I wonder if it would make sense to have a separate list for operas composed, say, post 1920, or whatever cutoff date people find appropriate?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Interesting suggestions- apart from not putting it in the opera forum, which is simply perverse!
> 
> At the risk of complicating things unnecessarily, I wonder if it would make sense to have a separate list for operas composed, say, post 1920, or whatever cutoff date people find appropriate?


Separating operas with post 1920s would suggest there is no historical connection between newer and older operas and that is not the case. Moses und Aron has as much tradition as don Giovanni ever has.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

But seperating it would ensure adequate exposure to more modern opera which you are wanting....


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> Separating operas with post 1920s would suggest there is no historical connection between newer and older operas and that is not the case. Moses und Aron has as much tradition as don Giovanni ever has.


I have no idea whether that's true or not, but the idea of a separate list is that modern operas tend to be appreciated by different members to those who mostly frequent the opera forum.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> Interesting suggestions- apart from not putting it in the opera forum, which is simply perverse!
> 
> At the risk of complicating things unnecessarily, I wonder if it would make sense to have a separate list for operas composed, say, post 1920, or whatever cutoff date people find appropriate?


String quartets, art songs, chamber duos...these lists were all done in the general discussion section, where the most people would contribute. And given the nature of this specific subforum, I can all but guarantee you that the list will be different (and less diverse) if the thread is here instead of in the general discussion section.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

nathanb said:


> String quartets, art songs, chamber duos...these lists were all done in the general discussion section, where the most people would contribute. And given the nature of this specific subforum, I can all but guarantee you that the list will be different (and less diverse) if the thread is here instead of in the general discussion section.


It doesn't matter that much where the voting thread is, but I don't see the point of having an opera forum if opera threads aren't confined to it. What's the problem with using the opera forum anyway? It won't become any more diverse if people who lament its lack of diversity stay away from it!


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