# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (Bonus Matchup): Schwarzkopf vs Janowitz



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Germany, 1915-2006






Gundula Janowitz, Germany, 1937






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Being unfamiliar with much of the German repertoire and soprano voices I am at a deficit when it comes to knowing what is "supposed" to be the definitive way of singing this gorgeous aria.
So I am left with my belly to report the answer and it looks like the most appealing voice to me was that of Janowitz.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

This is a tough one. I am glad to see some German vocal music which is more in my comfort zone than Italian which has always been an enigma for me. 

From my perspective, the Four last songs are a blend of misery and acceptance. I find that Schwarzkopf is a little more expressive than Janowitz but the latter has by far the better/more pure voice. So, it's Janowitz by a razor-thin margin for her fantastic vocalism.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Schwarzkopf tends to "overcook" each line, making it hard for me to fully enjoy the piece. Just too much is going on at the same time.
On the other hand, Janowitz's voice is beauty embodied, I'm casting a confident vote!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This is an easy one. I love the _Vier letzte Lieder_ and know both of these performances very well. I have them both, along with a couple more by Schwarzkopf, one with Popp, one with Flemining, one with Norman and I've listened to countless others. I also have a couple of recordings of the piano version featuring Welitsch and, more recently, Elsa Dreisig.

The Janowitz is indeed lovely and I enjoy it very much, but there is something so pure and disembodied about the voice that I miss the deeper signifcance Schwarzkopf brings to the songs. It is so easy to forget, with Strauss's beautiful writing for the soprano voice, that these are not mere vocalises, but poems set to music and Schwarzlopf brings out much more of the meaning of the words. The whole recording has a gorgeous autumnal glow and Schwarzkopf and Szell seem to be completely at one with their vision. So too are Janowitz and Karajan, no doubt, but Janowitz's silvery tone and the pursuit of beauty beyond all else, lose something of the valedictory nature of the song.

I am no doubt biased as I was brought up on Schwarzkopf's version and it has long been one of my desert island discs. Janowitz's version I got to know later. It's certainly one of the best, but I find the Schwarzkopf version much more moving. I really feel she understands the meaning of the song.

"Now this day has fatigued me
and my most arduous desire shall
receive kindly the starry night
like a tired child

Hands, rest after so much action
Forehead, cease all thinking
Now all my senses
wish to sink into this light slumber

And unattendedly the soul
wants to take wings freely
to live on deep down and thousandfold
in the magic circle of the night."

Schwarzkopf is an easy winner for me. If I had to place the versions I own, then the Janowitz would come after all my others. I think Popp, Fleming and Norman also have more to say about the songs.

PS With due deference to Azol, if bringing out the meaning of the song means overcooking the lyrics, then I must like my music well done.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I consider myself as an absolute expert of this masterpiece Lieder circle owing every single recording has been made until today. Here we have 2 issues: 1. The role / meaning and how the singer participates to this (spiritual relation) 2. The voice. The 1. is for Elizabeth, the 2. is for Gundula. (I love them both to death) I voted for Gundula because of the superior contacting of Karajan (very logical, he is Austrian and nearer to the spirit of these songs) and NOT because of anything else had to do with the Ladies performances which both are SUPER. Thanks for the poll. Super interesting stuff.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Dimace said:


> I consider myself as an absolute expert of this masterpiece Lieder circle owing every single recording has been made until today. Here we have 2 issues: 1. The role / meaning and how the singer participates to this (spiritual relation) 2. The voice. The 1. is for Elizabeth, the 2. is for Gundula. (I love them both to death) I voted for Gundula because of the superior contacting of Karajan (very logical, he is Austrian and nearer to the spirit of these songs) and NOT because of anything else had to do with the Ladies performances which both are SUPER. Thanks for the poll. Super interesting stuff.


Funnily enough I prefer Szell's conducting (just). I think he provides a richer, more autumnal glow.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While the Schwarzkopf/Szell has long been my 'go-to' for this work, I thought I'd try to make an honest evaluation of the two but found that I couldn't get past how much slower the HvK performance is, which I just don't like, so any comments about the singing would be an unfair comparison.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

After reading the other comments so far I find myself in agreement with Tsaraslondon that Schwarzkopf seems to show more understanding of the meaning of the poetry ... but I can't help wondering if Janowitz would do more were she not having to go at such a lumbering tempo. My vote goes for Szell!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This is a toughie as I love both these sopranos and think both were very much suited to this repertoire. I love the divine, floating quality that Janowitz's voice has in this. Schwarzkopf's is a very different version, she concentrates far more on the words than on vocal beauty. One of my go to recordings of this piece would be Studer's for her ability to balance soaring vocality and attention to the text. Here we have to choose between the two. In which case I go for Schwarzkopf. Each individual may find the sound of her voice attractive or unpleasant, but I still find it remarkable how she makes the case for these songs being sung poems, rather than music with words attached. I voted Schwarzkopf, whilst not wanting to be without either interpretation in my collection.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Having heard both of them - though not for quite a while - I thought I knew what I was going to say about these performances even before listening to them. Tsaraslondon has spoken substantially for me, but what surprised me is how torpid Karajan is. His languor infects Janowitz and his violinist as well. I realize that the poem is about being weary and going to sleep, but, as someone once said, it's possible for a writer to write about boring people without being boring. Everyone here desperately needs a shot of espresso. I listened first to Janowitz/Karajan, and it was such a relief to turn to Schwarzkopf/Szell and hear flesh-and-blood humans making vital music.

My own feeling is that Norman/Masur surpass both of these combos in this particular song - and their violinist really digs in - but that's another contest.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Oh God, I wish I didn’t have this Sophie’s choice. Miss Schwarzkopf sounds so artificial to me; she’s also past her best, making weird sounds to keep the tone going. 

On the other hand I’m not fond Miss Janowitz’s voice either, but at least she’s singing in German, her natural language, and the voice has a strange beauty. 

I agree that Miss Schwarzkopf inflects the words with more meaning, and Miss Janowitz sounds more metallic in some spots than others and she matches von Karajan’s glacial detachment, which doesn’t suit these songs.

I voted for Miss Schwarzkopf.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> I can't help wondering if Janowitz would do more were she not having to go at such a lumbering tempo.


I think not. There's another Janowitz recording kicking around, conducted by Haitink. It's quite briskly conducted (and in better sound), and Janowitz is just as bland.






To be honest, neither of these two recordings are among my favorites. I dislike Schwarzkopf's earlier recording with Ackermann a bit less than this one - she's a bit less interventionalist and in better voice, even if Ackermann is no George Szell.

As for Karajan, I prefer the later recording with Tomowa-Sintow.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bonetan, please forgive me for throwing this into your thread however I thought that it was quite interesting given the nature of the comments so far...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I think not. There's another Janowitz recording kicking around, conducted by Haitink. It's quite briskly conducted (and in better sound), and Janowitz is just as bland.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I might prefer the Ackermann recording too. In 1952 (?) she was in fresh voice and had a soaring freedom that the later version can't match.

It surprises me a little to see Janowitz leading Schwarzkopf 7 to 6. Janowitz may have a voice of cut-glass purity (and color ), but Schwarzkopf is five times the artist.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Both women were born to sing this material. Both sing with unbelievably beautiful voices. Both bring the music to life. Yet it is Schwartzkopf that makes this piece the most personal and introspective for me. Plus that incredible color she brings to her voice.I used to own this ages ago and I think it taught me how to appreciate the real deal when I heard it.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Another unexpected vote from me. I thought, without listening, that it was an easy win for Schwarzkopf. But she's well past her prime in this recording. However, Janowitz was for clearer and far more beautifully sung. Janowitz it is.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I might prefer the Ackermann recording too. In 1952 (?) she was in fresh voice and had a soaring freedom that the later version can't match.
> 
> It surprises me a little to see Janowitz leading Schwarzkopf 7 to 6. Janowitz may have a voice of cut-glass purity (and color ), but Schwarzkopf is five times the artist.


I have the Ackermann too and it is a lovely performance with Schwarzkopf in fresher voice, but I still prefer the later one. Part of this is no doubt because it is the recording by which I got to know these lovely songs, but I also prefer the autimnal glow Szell imparts to the songs, which matches the darker sound of Schwarzkopf's voice at that time. Schwarzkopf herself said,



> Many people maintain the first one is better. It's different of course. The voice is much younger. I don't think the first one is better, although one hears in the second that it is a maturer sound, but then the poems are not poems for a young creature, the poems are that of a mature person. It is never a girlish sound, it must suggest maturity, if anything. To look back at all seasons of life, and not be a spring-like noise. No, I'm very satisfied with that of course, and the main thing is that George Szell was satisfied. And to satisfy him was really something. He knew so much about singing - he was a singer's conductor if anyone was - incredible. And of course he could make every orchestra play as if they wer his own Cleveland, or the Philharmonia for that matter.


 _Elisabeth Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record_

I prefer Fleming's second recording of the songs for much the same reasons.

As it happens, I have a third Schwarzkopf recording; live with Karajan from the Royal Festival Hall in 1956. It's something of an oddity because Karajan changes the order of the songs, so that _Beim Schlafengehen_ comes second, followed by _Im Abendrot_ and finishing with _September_. I don't think it works very well and Karajan takes _September_ unaccountably fast.

As I said in my first post, I have listened to countless versions of these beautiful songs. There are many wonderful versions but the one I keep coming back to is the Schwarzkopf/Szell who, for my money, capture to perfection the mood of the poetry better than anyone. It rather saddens me that such artistry can be dismissed too easily by some of the contributors on here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have the Ackermann too and it is a lovely performance with Schwarzkopf in fresher voice, but I still prefer the later one. Part of this is no doubt because it is the recording by which I got to know these lovely songs, but I also prefer the autimnal glow Szell imparts to the songs, which matches the darker sound of Schwarzkopf's voice at that time. Schwarzkopf herself said,
> 
> _Elisabeth Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record_
> 
> ...


There's a degree of unfairness in comparing versions on the basis of only one song. People might choose differently if, say, the final song of the cycle, "Im Abendrot" had been chosen. Janowitz couldn't hope to persuade anyone but a fan that she knows what that one's about, but it's quite clear that Schwarzkopf does. Interestingly, Karajan takes it faster than Szell (probably trying to make up for his soporific "Beim Schlafengehen").


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Having heard both of them - though not for quite a while - I thought I knew what I was going to say about these performances even before listening to them. Tsaraslondon has spoken substantially for me, but what surprised me is how torpid Karajan is. His languor infects Janowitz and his violinist as well. I realize that the poem is about being weary and going to sleep, but, as someone once said, it's possible for a writer to write about boring people without being boring. Everyone here desperately needs a shot of espresso. I listened first to Janowitz/Karajan, and it was such a relief to turn to Schwarzkopf/Szell and hear flesh-and-blood humans making vital music.
> 
> My own feeling is that *Norman/Masur surpass both of these combos *in this particular song - and their violinist really digs in - but that's another contest.


It surpass EVERYTHING! No comparison. :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Dimace said:


> It surpass EVERYTHING! No comparison. :tiphat:


Not for me. Admittedly Norman can sustain them, but I don't get on with the slow tempi. The first song is slow and then they just get slower and slower until, by _Im Abendrot_, the whole thing threatens to come to a complete halt.

It's still one of my favourite versions though.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It rather saddens me that such artistry can be dismissed too easily by some of the contributors on here.


(Large parts of original post removed to focus on this line)

I can certainly relate to this in many ways, but from a somewhat different perspective. It's abundantly clear to me that there's a substantial majority of posters on here who are very dismissive of just about any singer later than Callas or Sutherland. I think that's a great pity for many reasons...

- There are some very talented singers and performers in recent generations (and no, I don't mean Netrebko)
- We should be *encouraging* of younger singers and supporting them in their development, *not dismissing* them as being somehow less than people who were either recorded badly, or not at all
- Any number of singers who display great artistry in the modern era are simply overlooked in favour of those from the past

I had a similar feeling when I saw the results of the Rethberg / Gheorghiu poll. Then again when we saw Fleming vs Sayao. Gheorghiu and Fleming are two of the best overall singers / actresses since Callas - IMHO on some occasions Gheorghiu especially has outperformed Callas. Gheorghiu at her best didn't wobble the way Callas did and Gheorghiu is every bit as convincing an actress.

And yet, in this forum, it seems that any recording less than 60 years old is automatically regarded as being inferior. I find it deeply frustrating that excellent performers of the modern era are simply dismissed. Is this nostalgia, a belief that things now aren't as good as they were? If so, that's something that is very rarely true - 'the good old days' were very rarely as good as people believe they were. I'm not saying that performers of the past weren't good, many of them surely were - but were they really so far ahead of the modern generation? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately, there's no convincing evidence either way due to the changes in recording technology. A modern recording reproduces so much more detail and depth that it's almost impossible to compare when you consider how much musical data was lost in recordings made before the 1980s - and pre 1950s records were significantly worse.

Then there is the message that's being sent here. I'll summarise the message: "Don't bother with modern operatic performances, they're nowhere near as good as in the old days". If I were to be new to opera, that's not a message that would encourage me to get involved. I find this message dismays me greatly.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Aerobat said:


> (Large parts of original post removed to focus on this line)
> 
> I can certainly relate to this in many ways, but from a somewhat different perspective. It's abundantly clear to me that there's a substantial majority of posters on here who are very dismissive of just about any singer later than Callas or Sutherland. I think that's a great pity for many reasons...
> 
> ...


I take it you're a Gheorghiu/Fleming fan? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

MAS said:


> I take it you're a Gheorghiu/Fleming fan? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Amongst others, yes! Especially Gheorghiu. But my main point is that I feel very strongly that we need to support, encourage, and develop the future of Opera. We can learn from the past (who can't), but we must also develop the talent that we have. There's no shortage of promising singers right now. My main concern is that by dwelling so extensively in the past, we fail to see the needs of the present and future...

If I was a current generation singer reading some of these forums, I think I'd be feeling pretty depressed!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If you were a current generation singer reading some of the technical criticisms of current generation singers, you should be doing some serious soul-searching.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

> And yet, in this forum, it seems that any recording less than 60 years old is automatically regarded as being inferior. I find it deeply frustrating that excellent performers of the modern era are simply dismissed.


I don't think they are simply dismissed. I am one of those who consistently find older performances to be of greater quality. I listen to both, though, and I don't simply say that the old one is amazing and the new one sucks. If you look at what I wrote about Rethberg/Gheorghiu, I said that Gheorghiu was really good. She does a lot right. There's plenty of value to that performance. But I then proceeded to _argue_, not assert, that Rethberg's performance was better, not on the basis of what I assume her voice must have been but we can't actually hear it, but on the basis of the recording itself on its own merits. If you don't agree with me, great! That's what the forum is for. Just don't reduce my opinion to a psychological phenomenon instead of an argument!



> Is this nostalgia, a belief that things now aren't as good as they were? If so, that's something that is very rarely true - 'the good old days' were very rarely as good as people believe they were.


Nostalgia is a danger, but so is an obsession with novelty. Old doesn't mean good and new doesn't mean good. Each singer should be taken on their own merits with a critical ear. Some things get better over time and some things get worse. Take opera composition. Who today is writing works to the standards of Verdi and Wagner? I would like to hear them. The 1860s were in fact better days for opera composition. I don't think that because of nostalgia, I think it because I haven't seen any comparable work. Same with opera singing. I don't hear anybody singing like this:




I don't need to speculate about what the recording process is leaving out. What I hear there is _amazing_, well beyond anything I've heard from a singer of the past 60 years (or more like 80). We are told by those who heard her in the theater that she was even better than what we hear, which leads me to believe that the recording is not hiding any serious deficiencies. 
On the other hand, I would much rather take my chances with today's medicine than that of 100 years ago. Not because of any bias towards novelty, but because of the evidence. We should make judgments about the quality of something based on the evidence we have not on any notions about whether things generally get better or worse. We should argue and disagree about our judgments not only because it's fun but to keep us from getting lazy, arrogant, or short-sighted, and because nobody has a monopoly on right judgment.



> I'm not saying that performers of the past weren't good, many of them surely were - but were they really so far ahead of the modern generation?


Yes, I believe they were. Who comes even close to that Flagstad recording?



> But my main point is that I feel very strongly that we need to support, encourage, and develop the future of Opera.


I think all of us agree about that, except maybe one or two who think there's no point in trying. But I think it would be nice for opera to have a future. I don't think that promoting inferior technique as a good example is the right way to do it. If we are ever to get a new Flagstad, it won't be by pretending Goerke or Davidsen are better than they are. It will be because people demand signers like that, and young singers demand that their teachers produce better results.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Becca said:


> If you were a current generation singer reading some of the technical criticisms of current generation singers, you should be doing some serious soul-searching.


I am this person and I've spent all of covid soul-searching :lol:


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Apologies for the delay, work got in the way of life again yesterday. Here comes a long post...



vivalagentenuova said:


> I don't think they are simply dismissed. I am one of those who consistently find older performances to be of greater quality. I listen to both, though, and I don't simply say that the old one is amazing and the new one sucks. If you look at what I wrote about Rethberg/Gheorghiu, I said that Gheorghiu was really good. She does a lot right. There's plenty of value to that performance. But I then proceeded to _argue_, not assert, that Rethberg's performance was better, not on the basis of what I assume her voice must have been but we can't actually hear it, but on the basis of the recording itself on its own merits. If you don't agree with me, great! That's what the forum is for. Just don't reduce my opinion to a psychological phenomenon instead of an argument!


I can assure you that I wasn't targeting any one individual, this was more of a generic observation. Apologies if any offence has been given.



vivalagentenuova said:


> Nostalgia is a danger, but so is an obsession with novelty. Old doesn't mean good and new doesn't mean good. Each singer should be taken on their own merits with a critical ear. Some things get better over time and some things get worse. Take opera composition. Who today is writing works to the standards of Verdi and Wagner? I would like to hear them. The 1860s were in fact better days for opera composition. I don't think that because of nostalgia, I think it because I haven't seen any comparable work. Same with opera singing. I don't hear anybody singing like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Firstly, I agree almost entirely on composition, although to cut in the 1860s is perhaps unfair to Puccini, whose compositions were much later than that. Now in terms of singing, I can give you someone much more recent than Flagstad who typifies certain aspects of Wagner, I would even say that Liebestod could have been written for her:






Now, the bit I've highlighted in bold is the bit that worries me! Why? In simple terms, because I don't always believe the written word when it comes to reviews of performance. Here are some review excepts - edited slightly and redacted by me to remove the names to highlight the effect, but I've linked to the full text at the end of this post.

Review 1: _"Then came what to my opinion was one of the best moments of the night: X's interpretation of "Tu che la vanità" from Verdi's "Don Carlo." Her pure lyrical voice suits the score perfectly in an aria where she could shine in the low register and on the several high B flats. She delivered long legato phrases in mezza voce and even showcased some well-sustained pianissimi notes like in "Se ancor si piangi in cielo." Her timbre is so grateful, her volume so powerful and her diminuendi so suspended that you must surrender to her vocal power."_

Review 2: _"X, in particular, gives one of the performances of her career. Singing Leonora for the first time, her voice is startlingly voluptuous and generous in the middle and lower registers. It's down there where this pitifully persecuted character - violently separated from her lover, who in turn has aroused the eternal ire of her brother by accidentally killing their father - really lives.
Her Leonora sounds death-hounded from the start, while also vibrating with the immense fervor - from love, from faith - that drives her forward. X sings with both relish and precision, having clearly internalized the bel canto lessons of earlier Verdi - like the other Leonora, in "Il Trovatore" - but now with an earthier flavor."
"X's stage presence has grown more confident in recent years, and, paradoxically, more modest: She's less busy in her acting, and more meaningful. The singer who might have once boiled over in exaggerated frenzy in "Pace, pace, mio dio" is now as focused in that climactic aria as the slow burn of a candle's wick.
In her duets with Y, his voice's duskiness unsettles into stormy passion. His sound shadowy and haunted, with tears at its core, he is adept at playing outsiders like Don Alvaro, but occasionally he can seem muted on stage, merely grumpy. While the exciting bit of strain and hint of wear in his tone can conjure thoughts of Mario del Monaco, Y doesn't go for del Monaco-type Italianate recklessness; sometimes he seems too obviously to be pacing himself."_

Now, if we didn't have modern recordings I think you'd assume from these reviews that they were of something spectacular. I've seen extracts from these performances on YouTube, and all I'll say is the X & Y don't cover themselves in glory. Indeed, the reviews could almost be of a different performance entirely.

So, who are they?

X is of course Anna Netrebko (yes, seriously). Y is Jonas Kaufmann.



vivalagentenuova said:


> I think all of us agree about that, except maybe one or two who think there's no point in trying. But I think it would be nice for opera to have a future. I don't think that promoting inferior technique as a good example is the right way to do it. If we are ever to get a new Flagstad, it won't be by pretending Goerke or Davidsen are better than they are. It will be because people demand signers like that, and young singers demand that their teachers produce better results.


There are some young singers who show significant potential, and who need the right development. Here's where things get complicated though. I love Wagner & Verdi, as well as Rossini & Donizetti and quite a lot more besides. But it's much harder to fill the house with Wagner than it is with lighter repertoire. One of the last performances I attended before children and the unavailability of baby sitters was a concert performance of Parsifal at Birmingham's Symphony Hall conducted by Andris Nelsons. A singularly good performance, that was there for one night. The venue was at most 75% full. By contrast, a much weaker company can fill nearby theatres for several nights if they put on a programme of Puccini and Mozart. So, what's my point? My point is that singers are being developed to perform the roles that audiences want to hear. This is why we have numerous lighter sopranos / mezzos / tenors than ever - there's demand. Some of them are actually quite good. (I wouldn't include Davidsen in this though).

I'd be very interested in your views on:

Aida Garifulina 
Nadine Sierra
Sonya Yoncheva
Laurence Brownlee
Julia Lezhneva
Lisette Oropesa

Now, here's the thing for me. What I'm really interested in isn't simply comparing them to the past, but what you think they need to do or change in order to improve. There's massive value in understanding how our current generation can improve and deliver a better standard of singing, and my view is that it's extremely valuable for everyone to understand how this can happen.

Links to reviews:

https://operawire.com/teatro-real-de-madrid-2019-20-review-anna-netrebko-yusif-eyvazov-in-concert/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/arts/music/review-netrebko-kaufmann-forza-verdi-london-opera.html


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Schwarzkopf's _Im Abendrot_ in the recording with Szell really makes you feel and believe she is facing the sunset of life. Makes one's hair stand on end. But overall, the Janowitz wins. Don't know why the earlier Schwarzkopf recording wasn't chosen for the poll. In that case it would have been tight and tough competition and nearly impossible to decide.

Of more recent recordings I go for Norman and Studer.

















A gorgeous live VLL from Studer here. Her _Im Abendrot_ stops time.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ALT said:


> Schwarzkopf's _Im Abendrot_ in the recording with Szell really makes you feel and believe she is facing the sunset of life. Makes one's hair stand on end.


Which is why, for my money, the Schwarzkopf/Szell _Vier letzte Lieder_ still leads the field. Janowitz/Karajan are very beautiful of course, but it's a rather empty beauty. They don't begin to delve into the deeper meaning of the songs, and they are settings of poetry, not mere vocalisse Fine, I suppose, if I just want to bathe in the disembodied purity of Janowitz's voice.

Norman/Masur runs them close, but I don't really like their ultra slow speeds. I confess I haven't heard Studer/Sinopoli as I had decided I didn't much like her. Recently, though, I've done something of reappraisal and this version has been very well received, so I should definitely give it a try soon.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

And Lisa della Casa's VLL cannot be ignored.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ALT said:


> And Lisa della Casa's VLL cannot be ignored.
> 
> View attachment 152235


Another lovely voice and a recording that was at one time perhaps considered a benchmark. This time I find, however, that the speeds are a bit too fast and it now almost seems perfunctory.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Incidentally, ALT, there are at least two threads devoted to the complete _Vier letzte Lieder_ in the Vocal Music forum,

Vier Letzte Lieder.

Four Last Songs, Richard Strauss

I suppose we shouldn't really hijack this thread, which is a comparison of two singers in one song.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Incidentally, ALT, there are at least two threads devoted to the complete _Vier letzte Lieder_ in the Vocal Music forum,
> 
> Vier Letzte Lieder.
> 
> ...


Thank you for making me aware of those two other discussions.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

Janowitz is one of my all time favourites - because of here warm angelic voice and despite her less than perfect elocution. Schwarzkopf was almost unmatched on the latter. She was a prodigy on technique and a brilliant ensemble singer, but almost always strikes me as ice-cold (exception: Donna Elvira in the Giulini recording). Thus, her singing leaves me cold in the Szell recording, and Szell's utterly luminous conducting cannot completely alter that. I adore Janowitz in the Haitink (a DG Janowitz box just came out with that recording in it, together with wonderful excerpts from Freischütz and the rather less great Schubert, elocutions matters particularly there) and the Karajan. And I am a big fan of the Norman version, as with all her Strauss orchestral songs.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Janowitz is one of my all time favourites - because of here warm angelic voice and despite her less than perfect elocution. Schwarzkopf was almost unmatched on the latter. She was a prodigy on technique and a brilliant ensemble singer, but almost always strikes me as ice-cold (exception: Donna Elvira in the Guilini recording). Thus, her singing leaves me cold in the Szell recording, and Szell's utterly luminous conducting cannot completely alter that. I adore Janowitz in the Haitink (a DG Janowitz box just came out with that recording in it, together with wonderful excerpts from Freischütz and the rather less great Schubert, elocutions matters particularly there) and the Karajan. And I am a big fan of the Norman version, as with all her Strauss orchestral songs.


Funny how we differ. It's the Janowitz/Karajan that I find somewhat marmoreal, whereas the Schwarzkopf/Szell has a warm, autumnal glow that more fully casts its spell.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

It would have been great to have Janowitz and Szell but, there it is...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

FastkeinBrahms said:


> It would have been great to have Janowitz and Szell but, there it is...


Not for me. Nor probably for Szell who decalred himself fully satisfied with Schwarzkopf's performance.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

The sheer beauty of the Janowitz/Karajan cannot be denied. However, Janowitz's was foremost an _instrumental_ voice. By this I mean that words were never her forte. She too often skated over words, instrumental-like sound production being her primary concern. The same argument can be thrown at te Kanawa. I repeat, of more recent accounts of the VLL, my favourites remain Norman (conducted slowly) and Studer (conducted at the right, more natural tempi). I never warmed up to Isokowski's despite her many admirers.

P.S.: For Tsaraslondon: I went over the Four Last Songs, Richard Strauss discussion and that one was hijacked and branched into opinions that had nothing to do with the subject. No one seems to have complained. At least this one has stuck thus far to the subject matter (VLL) albeit not just late Schwarzkopf and Janowitz.


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