# 12 Operas For The True Sophisticate



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

I cannot describe the profound love I have for these 12. This list is in NO WAY exhaustive, but it does represent my absolute essentials.

*Falstaff

Pelleas et Melisande

Capriccio

Mathis der Maler

Saint Francis of Assisi

Cosi Fan Tutte

Siegfried

Billy Budd

Moses and Aron

Doktor Faust

Palestrina

The Mask of Orpheus*

***********

Have you ever met anyone who shares my maniacal enthusiasm for all of these works?


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

My brother, a musician, loves COSI FAN TUTTE. I like FALSTAFF but am not yet familiar with COSI, or indeed with the others on your list.

If you want to make a complete list of operas for the "musical sophistocate" or the "connisseur," then I'd suggest adding THE RAKE'S PROGRESS (another of my brother's favorites) by Stravinsky. It seems to me that Bellini's operas are also "connisseurs' operas," in the sense that they'll never be truly popular crowd-pleasers but are more for the devotee of bel canto. I feel too that one of my favorite operas, LES CONTES D'HOFFMANN, appeals to a certain kind of sensibility. And finally, it seems that if you put FALSTAFF on the list then you also have to put OTELLO on the list -- but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi,



> If you want to make a complete list of operas for the "musical sophistocate" or the "connisseur," then I'd suggest adding THE RAKE'S PROGRESS


Yes, I do like _The Rake's Progress_ very much but I find _Moses and Aron_, _Capriccio_, _Palestrina_, _Mathis der Maler_, _Doktor Faust_ even more wondrous.



> And finally, it seems that if you put FALSTAFF on the list then you also have to put OTELLO on the list -- but maybe that's just me.


Needless to say I adore _Otello_ but for me _Falstaff_ will always be the crown jewel in Verdi.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

It's odd: OTELLO is, like FALSTAFF, through-composed. And yet I find OTELLO the easier opera to "understand" and "follow" in the musical sense. Is this because OTELLO is not as complex or is a bit closer to a traditional "numbers" opera than FALSTAFF is? I wish someone more musically educated than I would try to explain this to me!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> It seems to me that Bellini's operas are also "connisseurs' operas," in the sense that they'll never be truly popular crowd-pleasers but are more for the devotee of bel canto.


yet 90% of them were smash hits when they premiered and most of them are regularly played. Don't know, I found them easy to get into but it's true that bel canto and I seem made for each other 

I'm surprised someone considers Cosi highfalutin'. Care to elaborate, Xavier?


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

In partial answer to my own question above, I think it might have something to do with the fact that FALSTAFF contains a lot of complex ensembles, whereas OTELLO is essentially a series of duets.


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

deggial said:


> I'm surprised someone considers Cosi highfalutin'. Care to elaborate, Xavier?


Yes, thank for pointing it out! That was an error when I copied my list from my draft folder. My beloved *De Temporum Fine Comoedia* was to be in its place.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RRKBl1EyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

_Cosi_ is probably my favorite Mozart opera but it's not one of my essentials.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I know all of these operas except for The Mask of Orpheus , which I definitely want to get to know .
They're ll great , and mostly operas which newbies should wait to hear until they get to know the most
famous popular operas better .
Other rather esoteric operas which more people should get to know would be :

Lear , by Aribert Reimann ,

Die Gezeichneten by Franz Schreker ,

Padmavati by Albert Roussel ,

JUlietta by Bohuslav Martinu ,

King Roger by Karol Szymanowski ,

Saul & David by Carl Nielsen ,

The Handmaid's Tale by Poul Ruders ,

Flammen by Erwin Schulhoff ,

Le Roi Arthus (King Arthur ) , by Ernest Chausson ,

Ariane & Barbe Bleue , by Paul Dukas ,

Cardillac by Paul Hindemith ,

King Priam by Sir Michael Tippett ,

Die Agyptische Helena by Richard Strauss ,

Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh by Rimsky-Korsakov ,

Notre Dame by Franz Schmidt ,

Le Grande Macabre by Gyorgy Ligeti .


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

_The Mask of Orpheus_ is not a linear drama, but rather we are presented the same events from different points of view, playing with time, and with each main character split in three: Human (singer), Myth (off-stage voice and puppets) and Hero (mimes).

There are also six interludes with electronic music, a brilliant percussion, no strings in the orchestra ("They are not in the nature of the piece. The Rhythmic, percussive elements predominate. What would the strings bring to it?. They are too lyrical, too romantic, and I don't want Orpheus to be Romantic. I could try and escape this Romantic association of the strings, but how do you get away from the way the instruments speak?. In the end, I decided not to try". )...

It's a great work, but mainly for the avant-garde Opera lover.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Xavier said:


> Have you ever met anyone who shares my maniacal enthusiasm for all of these works?


Absolutely not. You're the only person I know whose "favourite operas" list perfectly matches the "operas for the true sophisticate" list. It may be because you're author of both, but still - you're the best and again, I confess from the bottom of my heart that I've never heard of another person who possessed the secret of _The Purest and Deepest Form of Opera Love_ and deserves the title of True Sophisticate as much as you do. You stand high above the masses.

Well, not really. But your threads seem to be such intense plea for people to confirm this view... I thought I'll finally write it for you.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I like 4 of them .............


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wow. Siegfried is for schoolchildren. _Parisfal_, now that is sophistication; Alas!


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Wow. Siegfried is for schoolchildren. _Parisfal_, now that is sophistication; Alas!


Billy Budd too. A lot of dudes on a ship with bucketloads of Unresolved Sexual Tension. And tunes. (I love it).

Death in Venice now...


----------



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Xavier said:


> Have you ever met anyone who shares my maniacal enthusiasm for all of these works?


No .


----------



## Amagliani (Jul 28, 2013)

And "the opera of operas" - don't forget it!


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I've never even met anybody including myself who has ever mentioned that they have knowledge of the thing ,
St.Francis of Assisi that is. But I'm obviously no sophisticate.
I see that Donald Runnicles conducted it and he is brilliant. I also read that it's eight hours long ,strewth,or alternatively four hours long,which is it ?


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Xavier said:


> I cannot describe the profound love I have for these 12: Falstaff, Pelleas et Melisande, Capriccio, Mathis der Maler, Saint Francis of Assisi, Cosi fan Tutte, Siegfried, Billy Budd, Moses and Aron, Doktor Faust, Palestrina, The Mask of Orpheus


Excellent choices overall, but I'd make some changes. Sticking with the same composers where I can, I'd have Die Frau ohne Schatten instead of Capriccio; Parsifal, not Siegfried; Turn of the Screw, not Billy Budd. I'd ditch the Busoni and Pfitzner, leaving space for Wozzeck and Tamerlano. BTW, any "sophisticated" list really ought to have L'Incoronazione di Poppea on it somewhere


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

moody said:


> I also read that [St François d'Assise] is eight hours long, or alternatively four hours long, which is it?


Almost exactly four hours long... eight, with an encore


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Excellent choices overall, but I'd make some changes. Sticking with the same composers where I can, I'd have Die Frau ohne Schatten instead of Capriccio; Parsifal, not Siegfried; Turn of the Screw, not Billy Budd. I'd ditch the Busoni and Pfitzner, leaving space for Wozzeck and Tamerlano. BTW, any "sophisticated" list really ought to have L'Incoronazione di Poppea on it somewhere


I like your list MUCH better. Tamerlano and Incoronazione


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Almost exactly four hours long... eight, with an encore


Oh no, are you allowed to bring a hammock with you ?


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi Reichstag,



> Excellent choices overall, but I'd make some changes. Sticking with the same composers where I can, I'd have Die Frau ohne Schatten instead of Capriccio


I adore _FroSch_ but the musical refinement of _Capriccio_ wins me over every time. Strauss himself referred to it as a "delicacy for connoisseurs"



> Parsifal, not Siegfried


Needless to say I venerate _Parsifal_ but _Siegfried_ is flawless and I simply love its comparative 'darkness', the preponderance of male voices, much of the orchestration (low strings, crashing brass sounds, etc), extensive dialogue scenes and short-winded parlando vocal writing, etc.



> Turn of the Screw, not Billy Budd.


I still think _Billy Budd_ is his finest masterpiece.



> I'd ditch the Busoni and Pfitzner, leaving space for Wozzeck and Tamerlano.


OMG... Never!!  Honestly, I love _Doktor Faust_ more than _Wozzeck_. And while I freely acknowledge that _Palestrina_ is a flawed and musically uneven piece its best sections are just too damn beautiful!! And the *Council of Trent* (Act 2) is one of my favorite acts in all opera.



> Any "sophisticated" list really ought to have L'Incoronazione di Poppea on it somewhere


For the record - I am very fond of Monteverdi but if I had to choose one work it would be _Ulysses' Return Home_.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Billy Budd is great, St Francis is great. I recall being a little disappointed by the Busoni - I have it here somewhere and probably should give it another go. I'd ditch the Pfitzner and Hindemith too, both a bit stodgy for me. Cosi is looking like a real palette freshener in that company!


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Die Soldaten ?
Les Troyens ?
Mefistofeles ?
Hansel and Gretel ?


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi dgee,



> I recall being a little disappointed by the Busoni - I have it here somewhere and probably should give it another go.


Yes, it's true that many seem to find the first 45 minutes (Symphonia, First Prologue and Second Prologue) "heavy going".... It does require unusual concentration.... My suggestion to the newcomers who find it off-putting is to start with the final hour (Second Scene in the Wittenberg Tavern: "SO LANG MAN JUGEND HAT" and Last Scene).... The music here is more "direct" and it really does repay careful listening with real pleasure!



> I'd ditch the Pfitzner and Hindemith too, both a bit stodgy for me


How can any opera fan who loves Wagner not be overwhelmed by the beauties of the final 30 minutes of Act 1?.... (Palestrina's monologue "Nicht ich - nicht ich schwach bin ich voller Fehler", The Masters soft choruses, The Visitation Scene, etc.)

And that's only for starters. I find the previous 45 minutes beginning with Borromeo's entrance so involving!

I just don't understand why a general aversion towards this great (but flawed) work still persists.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Just tried that section of Palestrina and it really is very nice! But about 15 mins into Act 2 it totally lost me. Might give it another go soon tho - there were some moments of quite a different sort of sound coming through in the tenor solo and chorus that were striking. 
Cheers


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Xavier said:


> I venerate _Parsifal_ but _Siegfried_ is flawless and I simply love its comparative 'darkness'


Indeed, Xavier, but there's arguably too much action in _Siegfried_ to make it a "connoisseur" piece - to fully appreciate the glacial beauty of _Parsifal_ one perhaps needs a more "trained" ear... or at least more patience! Apart from the Klingsor episodes, _Parsifal_ is like Siegfried's "Forest Murmurs" scene sustained, in masterly fashion, for 4 hours.


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

dgee,



> Just tried that section of Palestrina and it really is very nice!


See? I told you... 



> But about 15 mins into Act 2 it totally lost me. Might give it another go soon tho - there were some moments of quite a different sort of sound coming through in the tenor solo and chorus that were striking.


For some reason Act 2 has many detractors.

Here is what the Pulitzer prize winning music critic *Tim Page* once said:



> Admittedly, Act 2 is a problem -- a noisy, clattering depiction of the Council of Trent, where Palestrina's work is judged by some decidedly unsympathetic counts, bishops, cardinals and other authorities. This act was intended as the most extreme possible contrast between the two acts that surround it -- opposing the chaos of the world (including the squabbling hierarchies that purport to speak for religion) to Palestrina's retreat, where everything is pure spirit. Intentionally brash, Act 2 lasts more than an hour; it is marred by the absence of female voices (which necessitates a certain timbral monotony) and it succeeds in conveying ugly emptiness rather too well for the health of the complete work.


Needless to say I totally disagree on every point!

Just give it time.

:tiphat:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Looking at some of these lists I realise now I am not an opera sophisticate - thankfully!


----------



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Looking at some of these lists I realise now I am not an opera sophisticate - thankfully!


Why do you say that?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Xavier said:


> Why do you say that?


Ask Moody! .


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Ask Moody! .


You have to have a laugh--or you might jump off the bridge.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Well, I have learned on this site that the true opera sophisticate must take a certain threshold of oom-pah-pah (or oom-pah-oom-pah) in each opera or they are deemed unworthy of the genre. Hence a list of revered masterworks that does not include Rigoletto, Aida or Il Trovatore simply makes one a peasant


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dgee said:


> Well, I have learned on this site that the true opera sophisticate must take a certain threshold of oom-pah-pah (or oom-pah-oom-pah) in each opera or they are deemed unworthy of the genre. Hence a list of revered masterworks that does not include Rigoletto, Aida or Il Trovatore simply makes one a peasant


So you think that Xavier's list of masterworks are revered do you ,revered by whom exactly ?


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I have one which a true sophisticate could never be without 

_Gloria - a pigtale_ by H K Gruber

*Roles*
Gloria: Soprano
Solo pig and other roles: Mezzo Soprano
Gerhard and other roles: Tenor
Farmer and other roles: Baritone
Rodrigo and other roles: Bass

*Time and Place*
A farm in the mountains

*Synopsis*
Gloria is rather special from the beginning because she has naturally curly golden hair and she knows she is the most beautiful pig in the mountains. Unfortunately, she is also the saddest, as the pigs in her sty are envious and spiteful and cannot tolerate anything out of the ordinary. Her cousin Gerhard and his troop of fellow swine make this unmistakably clear to her in the 'March of the Pedigree Pigs': the pedigree white German pig is blond, and its hair is short with no nonsense about it. Anything else is deviant, really deviant - almost as bad as being a wild pig. Gloria, this lovely lady pig, is left with only her hopes and her longings. But longings are like blindfolds, so Gloria does not realise that the Prince, when he finally comes, is actually the butcher. The poor little sausages hanging on the wall sing her a song of thwarted hope, but their warnings seem to be in vain. The whole thing threatens to end in sausages - until love puts in an appearance in the shape of Rodrigo, the wild hero. He knows the ways of the world and he knows the butcher, and he rescues the gorgeous lady pig. At last it all turns out just as the oxen said it would.

And for once the hero is sung by the bass!!!


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

sospiro said:


> I have one which a true sophisticate could never be without
> 
> _Gloria - a pigtale_ by H K Gruber
> 
> ...


A true sophisticate and that is for sure.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^^ that was surreal and it made me very hungry, even though I had English breakfast first thing in the morning...


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I have one which a true sophisticate could never be without
> 
> _Gloria - a pigtale_ by H K Gruber
> 
> ...


I like a good rescue opera. And for once the soprano's enbonpoint will not be a problem, but rather le physique du role.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I like a good rescue opera. And for once the soprano's enbonpoint will not be a problem, but rather le physique du role.


:lol:

It's on next year in Buxton & I'm very tempted!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

it's an actual opera...!

:lol:

I thought you just made it all up.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

deggial said:


> it's an actual opera...!
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I thought you just made it all up.


:lol:

I'm not that clever!!

clicky


----------



## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

sospiro said:


> I have one which a true sophisticate could never be without
> 
> _Gloria - a pigtale_ by H K Gruber
> 
> ...


Wonderful. The downside to this opera is that no matter how well the soprano sings the cruel critics will write that she squeals like a pig. In fact, they'll probably say that about the entire cast.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Revenant said:


> Wonderful. The downside to this opera is that no matter how well the soprano sings the cruel critics will write that she squeals like a pig. In fact, they'll probably say that about the entire cast.


I can remember the Muppets doing a presentation of Pigaletto with Miss Piggy and Beverly Sills. Ms Sills showed off her paces as a song and dance act!


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> In fact, they'll probably say that about the entire cast.


No, somehow I feel that one singer would be bashed for butchering the role.


----------



## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


> No, somehow I feel that one singer would be bashed for butchering the role.


Or the audience would be bashed for butchering the entire cast. Or at the post-premiere banquet, if the caterers make an awful mistake in the selection and preparation of the main course.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

...I guess hamming it up would be a plus in this production.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Resurrected this thread as I'm going to see Gloria - a Pigtale on Saturday.

Loved reading through the comments again especially mamascarlatti's comment on Gloria's _physique du role_


----------



## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

Man, I am SO bummed out by this! I've been "into" opera for over 50 years and find myself an unsophisticated neophyte ( probably an oxymoronic phrase)!! I'll simply have to play nonstop Donizetti to assuage my sense of inadequacy ...


----------

