# Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt5



## Merl

Part 5. Final part for now!!!! (thank god for that, says everyone)

*C* Satisfactory cycle. Ok, but nothing to shout about
*B-* Good cycle but flawed (see decriptions in thread).
*B *Good standard. A decent library set or better.
*B+* Very good set. Some very impressive performances. Well worth investing in.
*A-* Excellent set just missing a little something to take it to the top of the pile but all performances very good or better.
*A** Wow! Currently the cream of the crop out there in LvB Cycleland. Buy, borrow or listen, now!

*Mackerras / RLPO*







Of Mackerras' 2 LvB cycles I've gotta admit to this being my slight favourite. Yes, I know the RLPO playing is a little bit rough at times but that earthiness is what makes this set so appealing. This is rugged Beethoven, sometimes a little too unhinged and unrestrained. It's the kind of HIP cycle that picks you up and throws you around the room a little but I like that in my Beethoven. Speeds are brisk but Mackerras' phrasing is great and he never sounds like he's competing in a speed competition. Symphonies 2,7 & 8 are my favourites here but tbh there's no bad performance. The Eroica is a little unconvincing but again it's hardly a poor one....it just never seems to get going and gets a bit leaden. The 8th sings though and is enhanced by a slightly bright recorded sound (which is across the set) and is superb. If you see this around in a secondhand shop near you get it. You wont be disappointed.

_Grade: B+_

*Mackerras / SCO*







Mackerras' 2nd HIP cycle differs little from his first one but it's certainly a more polished affair, less rough around the edges than the CFP cycle. Just like the first one it's also an excellent set. Recorded sound is warmer this time around and many prefer this set to the other cycle (it's a matter of preference but both sets are highly rewarding). Like the first cycle the brass and timpani are fairly prominent in the mix but that's no bad thing for my tastes (I love a nice noisy timpani in my LvB). However, this set differs in as much as Mackerras was more measured and less driven the second time around. Symphonies 4-8 are uniformly excellent and all other performances are very good at the least. Whatever the case no one who bought this would be disappointed with such a quality cycle.

_Grade: B+_

*Norrington / LCP*







Norrington's first HIP cycle can claim to be revolutionary and highly influential as it did make interpreters of Beethoven's symphonies re-examine their thoughts on this repertoire (but so did Hogwood and Bruggen from around the same time). We all know this set. So why review it? It's had it's detracters and supporters over the years. Where do I stand on it? Well I was never taken in by the hype. It is what it is - an intelligent but flawed cycle, occasionally poorly played and with nowhere near enough bass in the recording / performances for me. Performance-wise I've always liked Norrington in the even numbers apart from his vision of the Pastoral, which has always sounded hurried (not too fast...just hurried) but I find all the odd numbered symphonies (apart from the 7th) slight, thin, lacking umph or just plain wrong (that 9th is unbearable for me - those tempi are all over the place). However thanks to this set and the debate it caused we now have some real tempi back in Beethoven symphonies (which had slowed down significantly in the latter half of the 19th Century and especially at the start of the 20th century). It may be flawed but 'Scratchy Roger' opened many eyes and for that I am eternally grateful to him.

_Grade: B-_

*Norrington / SWR Stuttgart*







This is probably the most contentious of these reviews. Norrington's HIP rubato-less interpretations are a subject of great debate and some of his recordings in Mahler and elsewhere have been greeted with disdain and joy in equal measure. However, this cycle has met with largely widespread acclaim and that's no surprise to these ears as it's an absolute cracker! Where Norrington's LCP were scratchy, uneven and sleight in his first cycle, his Stuttgart forces are bold, bigger and bang on the money. Each performance glistens and Norrington has changed his view on these newer accounts. He's slightly more relaxed and sensible with tempi, yet more dynamic too. In short these are top-drawer readings. The recorded sound from these live takes is just outstanding and amongst the highlights in the whole cycle (and there are many) are a joyful 4th, 7th and 8th, an exciting 5th and a lovely Pastoral yet there's no duds. Speeds are brisk (as before) but the phrasing is so much better which makes the first movement of the 6th sound much less hurried (even though it's quick) than Chailly, for example. The Stuttgarters play out of their skins. The only account I'm still not convinced by here is the 9th. For me, again Norrington takes the first movement too quickly to such an extent that the 2nd movement sounds leaden. He doesn't help matters by playing a relaxed 2nd movement! The rest is fantastic but listen to this 9th and you may agree. However, this is a small quibble. It is a must-have cycle, IMO, but try it before you buy it. It's not for everyone but to me it's wonderful. Refreshing, invigorating and outstanding.
_
Grade: A*_

*Skrowaczewski / Saarbrucken*







Here's another cycle I came to rather late. Whilst I've had it for some time I didn't really start listening to it till I burned it for the car months ago. Since then it's been on heavy rotation and for good reason. With Skrowaczewski the devil is in the detail and the detail is sublime. Skrowaczewski was a very underrated conductor who produced very good Brahms, Bruckner and Schumann cycles. The Saarbrucken troops are no slouches in this repertoire and aided by a sensational recorded sound from OEHMS Skrowaczewski beautifully drives these performances forward with clean lines, great phrasing and expertly judged tempi. Listen to the reference recording of the 4th here and you'll see what I mean. This is a truly exceptional cycle. Every performance feels just right. Nothing's too rushed or trudgy....it's all just perfect. Repeated plays yield subtle details and the Saarbrucken orchestra give him a lovely clipped, snappy sound that greatly appeals to me. The 7th is up there with quality performances like Honeck and Kleiber for me and the 1st is possibly my favourite 1st in the catalogue. Rather than doing what many do with the 1st and trying to make it sound Haydn-esque, Skrowaczewski gives it an urgent, spectacular sound making it sound like a totally new, fresh and big-boned Beethoven symphony. It's that good. I dare you not to like this set. Excellent! 
_
Grade: A*_

Right, that will do for now. I'm still making my way through another half dozen recordings as we speak so expect Part 6 in the near future. You may agree with my summations or you may not. In any case I hope you appreciate that these are merely my views. You may feel differently about these cycles. If so, then feel free to comment in the threads. I've tried to cover a lot of lesser-known sets here so at least you can get some idea of what these performances sound like. I hope these reviews help.


----------



## D Smith

I really enjoyed reading your comments on the Beethoven sets, Merl. When did you ever find time to listen to all of them! I agree wholeheartedly about Skrowaczewsi, a fantastic collection. The original Norrington I never cared for, but haven't heard the second set. I'll certainly take some time to sample some of the ones you've mentioned.


----------



## Merl

D Smith said:


> I really enjoyed reading your comments on the Beethoven sets, Merl. When did you ever find time to listen to all of them! I agree wholeheartedly about Skrowaczewsi, a fantastic collection. The original Norrington I never cared for, but haven't heard the second set. I'll certainly take some time to sample some of the ones you've mentioned.


Whenever I wanna listen to a complete cycle I burn it to the car USB stick (it's a 64GB one) and then hack awaay at it over the next few weeks. I rarely need much to make my mind up about a recording. There are incidences, however, of me drastically changing my mind about ones (the Herreweghe cycle was a point in fact). I liked it quite a bit on first listen but then I saw through it's superficiality and downgraded it. Klemperer worked the other way for me. I never used to like his cycle, at all, but now I find it really good (probably due to the Pristine Remasters that some view as 'tinny' sounding, but I rather like). As I said, give the Norrington on Hannsler a go. It's a thousand times better than the LCP cycle. The recording is superb and it's a terrific set. Even RDB rates it (and he's a fussy bugger with his Beethoven:lol


----------



## CnC Bartok

Liverpool Mackerras, earlier Norrington and Skrowaczewski

Mackerras is better than you grade it, full agreement on the others!!


----------



## Merl

Robert Pickett said:


> Liverpool Mackerras, earlier Norrington and Skrowaczewski
> 
> Mackerras is better than you grade it, full agreement on the others!!


I may have been a little harder than usual with my grading but that's because there are so bloody many of these cycles.


----------



## Malx

Magnificent effort Merl - still a few of my favourites haven't been mentioned yet.

The only two sets you have so far reviewed I have parted company with simply because they took up shelf space and I knew I could easily live without them were - Norrington's first set and Menuhin's. 

I look forward to the next batch of impressions - great work!


----------



## Merl

Malx said:


> Magnificent effort Merl - still a few of my favourites haven't been mentioned yet.
> 
> The only two sets you have so far reviewed I have parted company with simply because they took up shelf space and I knew I could easily live without them were - Norrington's first set and Menuhin's.
> 
> I look forward to the next batch of impressions - great work!


There's plenty I won't be reviewing either due to Granate reviewing them in his Beethoven challenges. I'm just trying to pick up on the ones he hasn't touched. There's just so many and most are decent but few are A- or A* outside of the ones we've already had a go at. I'll happily review what I've heard, though, if it hasn't already been discussed.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I'm afraid to ask how many sets you have.


----------



## Merl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I'm afraid to ask how many sets you have.


At last count 117. Lol


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Merl said:


> At last count 117. Lol


I'm sure there are at least 100 more.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I'm listening to Krips LSO 7th Symphony. I know krips isn't the best but it's the only Beethoven I had growing up, so it's a sentimental fav.


----------



## CnC Bartok

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sentimental favourites! And besides, recording quality aside, there's little wrong with the Krips set, and his 7th is quite an exciting one.

My sentimental favourites are the Cluytens set. Same reasons as you. I suspect they elicit admiration rather than genuine love, but I'm firmly of the latter!


----------



## Merl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I'm sure there are at least 100 more.


Around 40 more, I've calculated.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Merl said:


> Around 40 more, I've calculated.


Go for it!.......


----------



## Malx

Merl said:


> There's plenty I won't be reviewing either due to Granate reviewing them in his Beethoven challenges. I'm just trying to pick up on the ones he hasn't touched. There's just so many and most are decent but few are A- or A* outside of the ones we've already had a go at. I'll happily review what I've heard, though, if it hasn't already been discussed.


A set I don't see mentioned much that I have a liking for is the box by Ensemble Orchestral de Paris conducted by John Nelson.

This is probably a stupid question but here we go - do you have/know it?


----------



## Merl

Malx said:


> A set I don't see mentioned much that I have a liking for is the box by Ensemble Orchestral de Paris conducted by John Nelson.
> 
> This is probably a stupid question but here we go - do you have/know it?


I know the cycle and its top of my list to get but I couldn't review it cos I've only heard the disc with symphonies 7&8 on it (which was very good). Its one of a number of cycles I've still yet to get but it's a bit pricey. I'm still going thru another 6 sets of LvB at the moment so they'll make up part 6 of this series. I won't say what they are. You'll have to wait.
Ps. I'm aware it's on one of the streaming sites but I can't be bothered. I need to live with it for a few weeks to do it justice.


----------



## Malx

Merl said:


> I know the cycle and its top of my list to get but I couldn't review it cos I've only heard the disc with symphonies 7&8 on it (which was very good). Its one of a number of cycles I've still yet to get but it's a bit pricey. I'm still going thru another 6 sets of LvB at the moment so they'll make up part 6 of this series. I won't say what they are. You'll have to wait.
> Ps. I'm aware it's on one of the streaming sites but I can't be bothered. I need to live with it for a few weeks to do it justice.


No problem Merl - when the opportunity arises I'm sure you'll be interested to hear it.
I appreciate it isn't the easiest set to get at a reasonable price. I was extremely fortunate to pick it up last summer after patiently waiting for a couple of years - a new set for £12.89 + P&P.


----------



## Merl

Malx said:


> No problem Merl - when the opportunity arises I'm sure you'll be interested to hear it.
> I appreciate it isn't the easiest set to get at a reasonable price. I was extremely fortunate to pick it up last summer after patiently waiting for a couple of years - a new set for £12.89 + P&P.


It gets very mixed reviews..... From excellent to average. Not heard that 7th and 8th for a few years so when I do get a copy of it I'll be interested to see what I think. If you see it going cheap on CD or digital download let me know, Malx.


----------



## Malx

Merl said:


> It gets very mixed reviews..... From excellent to average. Not heard that 7th and 8th for a few years so when I do get a copy of it I'll be interested to see what I think. If you see it going cheap on CD or digital download let me know, Malx.


I certainly will!


----------



## realdealblues

I agree with Merl's assessment on all but Norrington's first cycle with the London Classical Players. That cycle is abysmal and belongs with the worst of the worst in my book...


----------



## Merl

realdealblues said:


> I agree with Merl's assessment on all but Norrington's first cycle with the London Classical Players. That cycle is abysmal and belongs with the worst of the worst in my book...


Lol, I was probably being kind.


----------



## classfolkphile

I have always disliked HIP performances of Beethoven symphonies. (I'm now listening to Krivine and Immerseel and they seem to be an improvement over older sets, although I haven't come to final judgements.) 

There is nothing I like in Hogwood, Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Zinman, Abbado and others. However, to be contrary, I do like and think Norrington's LCP Nos. 2 & 8 are very good (somewhat scratchy sound aside). Very Szell like (and Szell didn't have great sound either in the CDs I've heard). The rest of the set (aside from an okay 3rd) is, I agree, completely disposable.


----------



## Merl

I've got 3 HIP sets on the go at the moment but none are complete so I can't review them. The Dausgaard sounds really good but I'm missing 3 symphonies.


----------



## Varick

realdealblues said:


> I agree with Merl's assessment on all but Norrington's first cycle with the London Classical Players. That cycle is abysmal and belongs with the worst of the worst in my book...


Amen on Norrington's first cycle. Merl, You mentioned that you were charitable with the B- grade. But even a C grade or even a D grade would have been charitable. But then you rate his second cycle an A*? Roger went from horrible to sublime??? You have peaked my interest. I will have to listen to it and will try to do so with an open mind, but I'm wary to see anyone have that big of a jump.

I reviewer whom I have great respect for and who's taste is very simpatico to mine thought the Skrowaczewski cycle wasn't anything to write home about. I trusted him at his word so never bothered to look into it. Perhaps if you had given it a B- or even a B+ I still wouldn't. But an A*? That's high praise. I'll have to see how simpatico our ears are. Thanks for all the work involved in this.

V


----------



## starthrower

I've read several negative reviews on the Skrowaczewski cycle. One Amazon reviewer called his interpretations "dainty". I found the 7th on YT and listened to the 1st movt and I think he has a point. It sounds a bit precious and light. More like ballet music. I found the complete cycle cheap at a local vendor but now I'm hesitant about making the purchase. Will have to do some more listening.


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> I've read several negative reviews on the Skrowaczewski cycle. One Amazon reviewer called his interpretations "dainty". I found the 7th on YT and listened to the 1st movt and I think he has a point. It sounds a bit precious and light. More like ballet music. I found the complete cycle cheap at a local vendor but now I'm hesitant about making the purchase. Will have to do some more listening.


2 words of warning...... 1) never trust Amazon reviews, most are pathetic 2) beware of low grade mp3 files on YouTube that strip the bass from some recordings. Whilst some won't agree with what I said about the Skrowaczewski, I don't hear it as light at all. For light and dainty I look to Jansons'cycle not this one. I don't know where else you've read negative reviews of that cycle but all the main reviewers are positive about it (Classics today raved about it like me).

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Feb06/Beethoven_Skrowaczewski_OC522.htm
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-13762/
http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3139


----------



## starthrower

I'll do some more listening, Merl. My own feelings are that Skrowaczewski was an excellent conductor. And I do want to own at least one full cycle in modern sound.

After listening to my first De Vriend Beethoven disc yesterday my opinion is that the performances are outstanding but there's a bit too much high end. It's very bright when I turn up the volume. And things feel a bit compressed. Maybe that's how they obtained the punchy sound? But I love the orchestra playing.


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> I'll do some more listening, Merl. My own feelings are that Skrowaczewski was an excellent conductor. And I do want to own at least one full cycle in modern sound.
> 
> After listening to my first De Vriend Beethoven disc yesterday my opinion is that the performances are outstanding but there's a bit too much high end. It's very bright when I turn up the volume. And things feel a bit compressed. Maybe that's how they obtained the punchy sound? But I love the orchestra playing.


That's a fair assessment. The recording is a bit bright but it's easily tamed. I do love De Vriend's way with the symphonies though. He's no speed merchant but there's loads of drive (and not too much either).


----------



## starthrower

I went ahead and ordered the Skrow set. I haven't seen the complete cycle anywhere but I just found it at Berkshire Music Outlet. It was only 23 dollars so I didn't want to let it slip through my fingers.


----------



## CnC Bartok

^^^^ A good investment! Skrowaczewski is superb in Beethoven (and Bruckner, and Brahms, come to think about it!)


----------



## starthrower

I have his Bruckner cycle which I enjoy. I've already got three Brahms cycles so I doubt I will buy anymore.


----------

