# Did you ever think you knew something, then...



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

...found out you didn't?
Just the other day I messed up identifying Schumann from Chopin. It's pretty embarrassing! In my defense, I'm not a pianist, but really like Schumann, so...I better listen to some more music then


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Uh-oh, you should definitely and repeatedly be flogged within an inch of your mortal life with a copy of Schumann’s Symphonic Etudes for recompense and punishment. This mistake must never happen like Schumann dating George Sand or Chopin trying to date Clara Schumann.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well actually in the piano concertos. 
I always mix the 2 up,,,If I come in during the radio play,,,i have a time figuring out which is which,,,dyslexia for sure,,,but somehow they sound to me as twins.

Here is Zimerman doing a aweful job at conducting,,,not sure how his piano skills are in this,,as I only heard the opening few notes,,,and the orch is not anything great,,3rd rate,,,
and in the Schumann you have a SUPERB Haitnik at the helms, with the MASTERFUL Concertgebouw with Perahia, not sure how his playing is, as I only heard the opening notes.

They seem connect at the hip these 2 concertos.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> ...found out you didn't?
> Just the other day I messed up identifying Schumann from Chopin. It's pretty embarrassing! In my defense, I'm not a pianist, but really like Schumann, so...I better listen to some more music then


In Schumann's piano work _Carnaval_, #12 is titled "Chopin." Perhaps that is what you were listening to . . .


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Roger Knox said:


> In Schumann's piano work _Carnaval_, #12 is titled "Chopin." Perhaps that is what you were listening to . . .


...I don't even remember


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Misidentifications can happen to anyone, but if you mistake Hildegard de Bingen for Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring, there might be a serious problem and need to see your... wait for it: otolaryngologists .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> Misidentifications can happen to anyone, but if you mistake Hildegard de Bingen for Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, there might be a serious problem.


I switched her with Liszt, who was a notorious transvestite. Sure, he called them "ecclesiastical robes" but the dainty flowered underwear gave him away.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Mistaken identities to avoid: 

Never mistake Chopin for George Sand
Never mistake Schoenberg for Stravinsky 
Never mistake Prokofiev for Shostakovich
Never mistake Bach for Handel 
Never Mistake Bruckner for Mahler
But most of all... 
Never mistake Mendelssohn for Wagner


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Or Henze for Bach


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Mistaken identities to avoid:
> 
> Never mistake Chopin for George Sand
> Never mistake Schoenberg for Stravinsky
> ...


Excellent choice of contrasts there, good job,,,,Opposites , stark contrasts.
Not sure why it is,,,I always seem to think,,,or have this impression, if one likes Bruckner one also likes Mahler and that can be reversed. Is this true? Fans of one, most often fans of the other?

Hows this one,,,never mistake Bartok for ~~~Ravel~~~ oh no, please, how could you....

You know, I could very easily mistake Schumann's piano solo with say,,Schubert,,,,is this a easily forgivable error on ones mistaken identities?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> well actually in the piano concertos.
> I always mix the 2 up,,,If I come in during the radio play,,,i have a time figuring out which is which,,,dyslexia for sure,,,but somehow they sound to me as twins.
> 
> Here is Zimerman doing a aweful job at conducting,,,not sure how his piano skills are in this,,as I only heard the opening few notes,,,and the orch is not anything great,,3rd rate,,,
> ...


There are indeed moments when the Chopin and Schumann piano concertos make similar sounds and gestures, although Chopin's melodic style,orchestral sonority and piano writing are really distinctive. I doubt that I'd confuse them for more than a few seconds.

Why do you say Zimerman's conducting is awful? I found his performances the most interesting I'd heard of these works: thoughtful, flexible and probing, never too easy, taking nothing for granted, imparting a rare gravity. For me he made them sound new again.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> There are indeed moments when the Chopin and Schumann piano concertos make similar sounds and gestures, although Chopin's melodic style,orchestral sonority and piano writing are really distinctive. I doubt that I'd confuse them for more than a few seconds.
> 
> Why do you say Zimerman's conducting is awful? I found his performances the most interesting I'd heard of these works: thoughtful, flexible and probing, never too easy, taking nothing for granted, imparting a rare gravity. For me he made them sound new again.


I go along with Woodduck on the Zimerman Chopin Concertos. These are not conducted awfully at all - far from it, imo - and there's a tremendous balance between the piano and the orchestra background which is so often maligned as being weak and poor. I feel these are outstanding recordings and anyone would be lucky to have them though I believe that Concerto No. 2 is performed much better than No.1. The overall sound quality is also outstanding and I wouldn't be surprised if Zimerman had a lot to do with that. I sometimes have to rub my eyes in disbelief at some of the things that are said about certain recordings, composers, and performances that some apparently say off the top of their heads and never think twice about.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Well its always a huge red flag, when I see soloist is the conductor also,,,Of course we know in Mozart;s PC's back in his day, he was doing both, which was common practice. 
There are exceptions to the rule...
In the Chopin,,,I used to listen to the LP, every day in my 1st yrs of The High arts (CM)..so I know how it is ~~suppose~~ to go.
,,,let me go see,,,oh yeah,,i remember it was the ~~Pollini as pianist on LP, every day I heard it.,,,Just in the opening few seconds,,i knew Zimerman 's work here was going off badly. 
And if the conducting is going bad,,,,the solo piano part,,well, don't want to know....that too will have issues ~
Here let me see If I can find the Pollini,,,can't recall the conductor/orch.

be right back.....
OK,,,I knew it was the Philharmonia,,,when it was a great grand spectacular orchestra,,,1960...conducted by Paul Kletzki (Polish conductor,,,probably studied the score since his earliest days at the conservatorie)
Pollini was 18 years old, and shows high skills.

The sound is so,, ~romantic era~~~ very warm sound engineered acoustics,,which lends a old era charm to the performance + the tempos are near perfect,,,all sections of the orch very well prepared and it shows up in this record.

There may be recordings you and others find superior,,,,but for me at that time,,,I felt no need at all to look elsewhere.

There are probably 50 recordings available...But if I had to choose one today,,it would be this one,,,in spite there may be others more tech perfect, highly polished. 
It is the balance of the whole record. 
Chopin is from another time, ,,and this sound lends charm and character to the ~~Ideal~~ of The Romantic Era. Its like you are transported back to Chopin's time.

So no,,,Zimerman 's conducting does ~~absolutely~~ nothing for me. 
Kletzki was a master in this performance, and the Philharmonia 1960's group, responded

I am very surprised this record is posted on YT. many Chopin-ians here on TC may not even be aware this record exists.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> I go along with Woodduck on the Zimerman Chopin Concertos. These are not conducted awefully at all - far from it, imo - and there's a tremendous balance between the piano and the orchestra background which is so often maligned as being weak and poor. I feel these are outstanding recordings and anyone would be lucky to have them though I believe that one Concerto is performed a little bit more effectively than the other (but I don't recall which at the moment). The overall sound quality is also outstanding and I wouldn't be surprised if Zimerman had a lot to do with that. I sometimes have to rub my eyes in disbelief at some of the things that are said about certain recordings, composers, and performances that some apparently say off the top of their heads and never think twice about it.


you and I were writing same time,,,i did not see your post,,,
~~His conducting~or the orch,,,or both together

~~STINKS


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

DG has lots of terrible recordings in its vast catalogue ,,,especially its Beethoven piano concertos,,,just aweful,,,or is it the music I don't like,,,or both


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> ,,,let me go see,,,oh yeah,,i remember it was the ~~Pollini as pianist on LP, every day I heard it.,,,Just in the opening few seconds,,i knew Zimerman 's work here was going off badly.
> And if the conducting is going bad,,,,the solo piano part,,well, don't want to know....that too will have issues ~
> ~~His conducting~or the orch,,,or both together
> 
> ~~STINKS


Here is the Pollini/Kletzki you remember fondly:






It's a fine, strong performance. Now here is Zimerman/Zimerman:






Strikingly different. Kletzki has the end in his sights from the start, gestures decisively with a militant opening, creates an unflagging momentum, takes the entire orchestral intro on one breath. Zimerman, beginning more gently, lets us know right off that this is not going to be a mere introduction but an exploration of an emotional landscape, with each turn requiring its own pace as it opens up a new and distinct beauty. There are more inflections of rhythm and dynamics in this performance than in any other I've heard, and there are interesting things happening in the orchestra in passages which are normally played as neutral accompaniment to the piano. Zimerman conducts and plays this music as if it were newly written and just handed to him by the composer, and as if he had studied it without preconceptions.

Real Romantic music-making is characterized by, among other things, individuality of interpretation, a sense of spontaneous engagement, and a willingness to take expressivity to the edge. It's musical risk-taking; sometimes it comes off and sometimes it doesn't, but it is above all interesting. Zimerman's performance is unfailingly interesting, and at times - I'm thinking of the utterly rapt opening of the second movement - breathtaking.

Obviously, it isn't what you're used to. And that's really the crux of this. It just isn't what you're used to.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> you and I were writing same time,,,i did not see your post,,,
> ~~His conducting~or the orch,,,or both together
> 
> ~~STINKS


Someone may dislike it, but it's not "awful". The performance of Concerto No. 2 is far better than No. 1. No. 1 starts off poorly and the tempo is uncertain. That's a more accurate description of the CD rather than a crude one-word dismissal. The CD is a mixed bag.

The Zimerman Chopin Concertos - 4.5 rating out of five stars on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concertos-CD-Chopin/dp/B00002DE0S/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_15_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=H2JSGZ6V6P2NFKCXZDY3

Classical net review: http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/d/dgg59684a.phphttp://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/d/dgg59684a.php

I've heard it too. Not awful. But I bought it for the performance of the 2nd.

.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Tell you what
to be ~~~~~~fair~~~ in all this,,,which is now a confession,,,no I did not listen to Zimerman's all the way through,,,i have enough suffering at the moment,,,,but to be honest, fair, equitable, ...be right back in a ,,,jiffy,,,well actually~~~when;s its over,,,no bias, no PRE`Judging,,,pure clean ears. …………,,well i'm back,,*?In just over 5 minutes?? how is this possible? ,,you broke your word, your honesty,,now

STINKS

well indeed, at least I am honest about my dishonesty

No,, can't, won't, ain't gonna happen. 
OK, if yall, agree both have merits,,lets end it at that.
But may I at least give critique on the 5??
*NO, as no record can be fairly critiqued based on listening to a few pages....*

Ok. you got me,,
My *review* has no merits,,but may I sufggest, it may get better as it goes along..
This festival Orch apparently is made up of Polish Conservatoire students,,which I can accept ,,,,this is not the 1950's Monteux Concertgebouw,,,got that,,,but the conducting,,,opening is like watching paint dry,,,, the pauses are proper,,,but the temps are sluggish,,the wind players~lack of finesse~~ entrances, just aggravate the flowing nature,,,then Zimerman's...now here is where this word is the ideal descript~~Idiosyncrasy ~~ is too much to endure, ,,breaking my iconic Kletzki performance.

There is no way,,this,,is going in the right direction,,= not going to get any better.
btw,,amazon reviews...HA!,,,I always go to 1,2 stars FIRST,,to see if there might be something amiss,,THEN I go to 3,then 4 stars...I usually avoid 5 stars when there are more than say 100 reviews,,Take Henze,,,there are only 3-5 folks making comments, at times only 1 or none,,,so there its no choice,,,read and reflect.

I know for a fact,,if I go to amazon,,there will not exist any , 1 nor 2 star comments out the 50+ (possibly, don't know fior sure as I have not cked,,,but will,,onlya assumption,,,) over at amazon = sure I must be at fault,,and as the lone rider,,,i must ride off into the,,,night = my comments are void., as weighed by the majority vote.

Great, , so I lose here.

And this is not about any ~~personal~~~ to each his own~~~ preference,,,,I'm speaking, if you can, wish,,to believe IT,,,objectively, as saya judging ina contest....
May I say,,I have been a critical recording critic for the past, 35 yrs,,since my earliest days,,after having been burned by poor LP renditions,,,from the major labels,,,can we lay this at the feet of consumerism/commercialism?

Its popular= so it must be good~~

But as I've shot myself in the foot here, by the perhaps the only thing honest in the entire post,,if I ONLY gave Zimerman,,,5 minutes of my time,,,but as I say,,,after yrs of critiquing,,,my eras don't lie,,,when its blantantly ,,obvious ,,the thing has issues..right from the Get -Go.

Poor Get-Go's never ripen to Greatness.

may I offer at least some apologetic quip at the moment in defence of Zimerman's extra-ordinary artistry, cordially ..As I've mentioned several times on TC,,,Zimerman's /Cleveland/Boulez/DG record in the Ravel concerto in G Major ,,is without peer in the 2nd movement,,,which makes his performance as a whole, the finest ever on record. 
It shows, that his laborious, attentions to the tinest of details,,all resulted ina stunning interpretation, without equal.

Woodduck,,when you say, *as if its all a new composition,,handed to him by Chopin's own hands***, come on,,whats that all about. 
Now I know I'm in the wrong area for finding any sympathizers.

Others will now attack here,,I am sure...open fire at your pleasures.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Thanks to Larkenfeild for his kindness of posting the link to amazon,,,well actually there are,as I said, 50+, it is 62 reviews/comments,,,yet it is as I said,,,only 1 ONE star comment,,,so I clicked,,,Dikigoros, July 2012,,,read that one,,,which aligns with mine,,and he sums up things , less wordy , more succinctly .= He bombards Zimerman with faults. ~~Ego~~ apparently he is not being honest with himself and just admits at any moment in the record studio,,,*No I can't do this,,,I'm not in sync with the music~~ But so so sooo typical of all the great artsist throughout the record INDUSTRY,,he is just like so many others,,,ego tripping. 
I really hate the romantic recordings,,,like looking for a needle in a *hay* (read poop) stack for any 5 star, and even 4 star.

yeah his credulity has limits,,as he did mention,,Dutoit as a go to record,,,that lowers his estimate here for sure.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yep, typical Dutoit,,,Here Argerich is at ~~the very least~~~ superior to Zimerman (I don't care for Argerich in this studio either,,yet neither a fan of her styles),,,and her 1992 live in Poland, is her much better rendition, if not excellent.

But this stupdio/Dutoit, I gave oh 4/10 and that's being ~generous~

oh how you romantics must suffer in the ~~attempts~~ to locate an acceptable performance,,,the minefields you must trudge through,,,the ~INVESTMENTS~~, ,,,go ahead, clean your hosue, do what I often do, straight in the can,,garbage that is...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Tell you what
> to be ~~~~~~fair~~~ in all this,,,which is now a confession,,,no I did not listen to Zimerman's all the way through,,,i have enough suffering at the moment,,,,but to be honest, fair, equitable, ...be right back in a ,,,jiffy,,,well actually~~~when;s its over,,,no bias, no PRE`Judging,,,pure clean ears. …………,,well i'm back,,*?In just over 5 minutes?? how is this possible? ,,you broke your word, your honesty,,now
> 
> STINKS
> ...


And your point is...?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

That Zimerman , at least from me, receives
zero stars out of a possible

10 Star rating system. 
Read the 1 star review on amazon


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> That Zimerman , at least from me, receives
> zero stars out of a possible
> 
> 10 Star rating system.
> Read the 1 star review on amazon


OK. I'll read that, and you read the 50+ positive reviews.

It would be very surprising if a musician as fine as Krystian Zimerman actually gave a poor interpretation of a piece of music. Possible - but very unlikely. Your opinions are so extreme, so dogmatic, so unreasoned, and so long-winded, any reasonable person would tend to think that the main problem here is with you, not with Zimerman. If you don't like a performance, either say so succinctly and let it go, or be specific about what you don't like. Don't confuse "I don't like it" with "it stinks." 50+ out of 62 reviewers - since you want us to read reviews - like the performance very much. What do you know that they don't?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

HOWDY! Yet again my naive little topic gets the treatment!  Somebody does know that they know something and always will...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> HOWDY! Yet again my naive little topic gets the treatment!  Somebody does know that they know something and always will...


No i'm glad you brought this up,,,,this way I get to meet many of these amazon 5 star, so generous, so liberal reviewers,,,
read the 5 star comments..
Why would I..
I have 2 ears,,, read the comment I left the 1 star review,,,i guess the 4 starers have poor hearing,,,maybe they should go see a doc.

I almost never, go to any 5 star amazon review, 
I ALWAYS START AT THE BOTTOM and work my way up...…

You guys ain;'t budging a inch off Zimerman's performance. I can see that.
I could care less if the entire CM community gave Zimerman 5 stars, Whats that to me. I have 2 ears, I know what I hear. 
If the majority were always right,,,this may be a better world to live in.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

paulbest said:


> No i'm glad you brought this up,,,,this way I get to meet many of these amazon 5 star, so generous, so liberal reviewers,,,
> read the 5 star comments..
> Why would I..
> I have 2 ears,,, read the comment I left the 1 star review,,,i guess the 4 starers have poor hearing,,,maybe they should go see a doc.
> ...


If I may say so, you're steering this wild ride...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I heard a piece in church a few weeks ago I was sure was Chopin. Turned out it was Liszt.


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