# Your most profound music



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

For me it is JS Bach's Musical Offering, the Art of the Fugue and Beethoven's last quartets. There is something about them that I find it hard to believe that a human being could write such music. What is special about their brains that they could produce such profundity? Always blows me away.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Yes - those and so many other pieces! I get that your "profound" category is the cream of the cream but I guess there are many ways of being truly profound. Your choices suggest you may associate fugues with profundity? I mean aren't Bach's Matthew Passion and Mass in B minor also jaw droppingly profound as well as exciting and uplifting?

And Mozart's last three symphonies and .... . For me the feeling _that a piece is so amazing that I just can't imagine where it came from _is one I recognise well from encounters with the truly great but that category would still include a lot of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and quite a lot of a good few others!

I suspect that if we all add our candidates for this new plaudit we will pretty quickly dilute the category too much to become merely a collection of favourites from an odd assortment of people!


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Don't get me wrong St Matthew Passion and the Mass in B minor are right up there but for me not quite the cream of the cream. But I had to draw a line somewhere, with Bach that is hard to do, I mean what about his cantatas? If that was all he wrote he would still be in the top three greatest ever. Beethoven's last 6 piano sonatas, or even Moonlight sonats on it's own is right up there, too. Of course this could go on forever.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

beetzart said:


> For me it is JS Bach's Musical Offering, the Art of the Fugue and Beethoven's last quartets. There is something about them that I find it hard to believe that a human being could write such music. What is special about their brains that they could produce such profundity? Always blows me away.


I once described one of the contrapunctus movements from Art of Fugue as quite profound, but listening to the entire work now I am struggling to perceive anything beyond mere academic exercise. Do the notes become visual expression for you or is it's profundity only in the sound?

Please don't be offended.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/i-dont-get-why-people-worship-bach/


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Beethoven's Ninth and Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

There is something about the complexity of it that amazes me. The last fugue that is unfinished is I think intentional.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The finales of two majestic works -- the final movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 32 and the last five minutes of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5, from the coda to the end. 

The opening scene of Verdi's opera Otello is also quite profound -- people on shore watching a sailing ship struggling at sea that comes to a magical, successful end.

But the coup de gras is the Don's end in Mozart's Don Giovanni, where the commendatore (a statue) comes to life and casts the Don into Hell. I find this more profound than anything going on Bach's St. Matthew Passion.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

For me it's Sibelius and his seventh symphony. It's profundity overwhelms me and yet Sibelius never exaggerates or overindulges in doing so. In his own words:
_"A great success. There is no denying it: my new work is one of the best. Tone and 'colour' both powerful..."_


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I dunno about profound but for me Beethoven's 7th symphony is THE complete symphony for me. A really good account of it fills me with joy. I know most people admire the slow movement but when the opening movement is perfomed expertly (eg. Honeck) it really floats my boat.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Bach's keyboard music - English suites, French suites, keyboard partitas, WTC, violin sonatas and partitas
I also found some Rainessance polyphony works to be profound - Orlande de Lassus - Psalmi poenitentialis, Alessandro Striggio - Mass for 40 & 60 voices etc.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/i-dont-get-why-people-worship-bach/


https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/is-bach-best


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto ... am I allowed to say that?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Blancrocher said:


> Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto ... am I allowed to say that?


Why would you say that? Beautiful concerto by the way.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Jacck said:


> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/is-bach-best


https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/mozart-the-greatest-composer-of-all


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)




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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Feldman's For Philip Guston and Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello are at the top for me, Brahms' first piano concerto, Rautavaara's first piano concerto, Ives' Violin Sonatas and Piano Trio, Liszt's Années de Pèlerinage, Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 3 in E major, Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit, Takemitsu's From Me Flows What You Call Time. There are probably many more, but those are what come to mind right away. I agree with Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, which is one of his only works that I enjoy. I also personally don't hear anything profound in The Art of the Fugue, but the Mass in B minor is on my list.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Off the beaten path for most listeners, but nevertheless as profound as any.

Prokofiev's Sonata No. 8.






Scriabin Sonata No. 9






Bartok Quartet No. 5


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Most of medieval choral music, Perotin in particular, of course.

Most of Gesualdo; this is the sweetest piece ever composed, not everything in Gesualdo was death and sorrow... but close!

The fuge from Bach's toccata und fuge (Dorian), this piece is a real gem. Note it's the bwv 538, not the well known one, bwv 565.

Pretty much any Mozart piano concerto between the no.20 and no.25 (at least, those are my favorites.)

Beethoven's piano sonatas op.111 and les adieux.

Chopin's Op.25 No.12 (Ocean) and Polonaise Op 40 #2 (I don't tend to like her interpretations, but this one is of the few that play the piece at the right faster tempo; in particular, it really gives a wonderful 'profound' effect to the crescendo towards the middle section, starting at 1:14, by far my favorite Chopin passage.)

Brahms Clarinet Sonata No 1 Op 120. You thought the late intermezzi were profound? They are, but now try this late sonata.

Ravel's Oiseaux tristes. Man, this piece is so special, I wouldn't know were to begin if I were to explain why it's profound. Also, Scarbo, probably that's how madness feel. The piano concerto for the left hand, too

Debussy - Des pas sur la neige.

Anton Webern - Variations for Orchestra.

Stravinsky - Epitaphium.

Ligeti - Requiem. Also, piano etude automne a varsovie. The violin concerto, particularly the final movement.

Feldman - palais de mari.

John Cage - Seven. And many others of his so-called late number pieces.

Francis Dhomont - Lettre de Sarajevo.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)




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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'll post just one that rarely gets mentioned. Why?

Handel - Dixit Dominus - Gloria


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


>


Stupendous performance, different to my favorite one (Gould/Bernstein), but wonderful too.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

jdec said:


> Stupendous performance, different to my favorite one (Gould/Bernstein), but wonderful too.


I agree. I was thrilled to have discovered it .


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Don't get me wrong St Matthew Passion and the Mass in B minor are right up there but for me not quite the cream of the cream. But I had to draw a line somewhere, with Bach that is hard to do, I mean what about his cantatas? If that was all he wrote he would still be in the top three greatest ever. Beethoven's last 6 piano sonatas, or even Moonlight sonats on it's own is right up there, too. Of course this could go on forever.


Many find it unpalatable or futile to be ranking works or composers at all. I am happy to think in terms of the greatest and the very great but both of these categories contain a very large number of works or even composers that I am unhappy to sub-divide further. I tend to hear different ways of achieving equivalent greatness.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Shosty's Preludes and Fugues: the circumstances of their production are of interest to me, but the music itself tells its own fascinating narratives. The Viola Sonata is up there (or "down there," since we're discussing profundity?) as well.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Blancrocher said:


> Shosty's Preludes and Fugues: the circumstances of their production are of interest to me, but the music itself tells its own fascinating narratives. The Viola Sonata is up there (or "down there," since we're discussing profundity?) as well.


Viola Sonata, how could I forget?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I would also add the Rosary sonatas. I listened twice to them in their entirety and the music has a really calming, meditative, spiritual effect on me. Amazing music, on par with Bach.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Jacck said:


> I would also add the Rosary sonatas. I listened twice to them in their entirety and the music has a really calming, meditative, spiritual effect on me. Amazing music, on par with Bach.


Thanks for that, not come across Biber before but from what I heard so far it sounds like something I'd get into.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Mahler's fourth symphony.


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Beethoven 9
Tristan und Isolde
Sibelius symphonies 6 and 7
Mahler Das Lied and 9th+10th symphonies


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Brahms' String Quintet No. 1 in F major, op. 88

And virtually all of Bach's music is shot through with passages or movements of the greatest profundity.

Beethoven 9, Missa Solemnis and C# minor string quartet Op. 131 are examples too.

And Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 13 in C major, K. 415.

And Haydn's String Quartet in G minor Op. 20 no. 3.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> Shosty's Preludes and Fugues: the circumstances of their production are of interest to me, but the music itself tells its own fascinating narratives. The Viola Sonata is up there (or "down there," since we're discussing profundity?) as well.


While we're on Shostakovich, I would cite the passacaglia (third movement) from his Tenth String Quartet, especially as performed by the Borodin Quartet. Quietly devastating.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Where Bach is concerned, I find his keyboard works much more profound than any of the religious choral works. Art of Fugue + WTC mainly. 

Beethoven's late quartets
A lot of Tristan und Isolde and other Wagner
Bruckner
Profundity touches Mahler in moments (finale of the Resurrection, 9th symphony, 10th symphony and some other movements throughout the symphonies but not consistently for me) whereas profundity runs through Bruckner like blood. 
Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, especially the slow movement
Scriabin's piano sonatas
Schubert's late piano sonatas
R. Strauss at times
Janacek's On an Overgrown Path
Much early and renaissance choral music


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> While we're on Shostakovich, I would cite the passacaglia (third movement) from his Tenth String Quartet, especially as performed by the Borodin Quartet. Quietly devastating.


I'd never heard this before today, but it's striking how approachable and immediate his music is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> While we're on Shostakovich, I would cite the passacaglia (third movement) from his Tenth String Quartet, especially as performed by the Borodin Quartet. Quietly devastating.


DSCH's 10th String Quartet is one of his best, but it doesn't seem so well known. It has been arranged by Barshai as a chamber symphony for strings, Op. 118a in DSCH's catalog. Well worth hearing either way!

Here's the Passacaglia:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here's Wikipedia on Shostakovich's 8th SQ, which Barshai worked up into a chamber symphony also, Op. 110a:

"The quartet was premiered in 1960 in Leningrad by the Beethoven Quartet. The music critic Erik Smith wrote in the liner notes of the Borodin Quartet's 1962 recording that The Borodin Quartet played this work to the composer at his Moscow home, hoping for his criticisms. But Shostakovich, overwhelmed by this beautiful realisation of his most personal feelings, buried his head in his hands and wept. When they had finished playing, the four musicians quietly packed up their instruments and stole out of the room."


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

beetzart said:


> For me it is JS Bach's Musical Offering, the Art of the Fugue and Beethoven's last quartets. There is something about them that I find it hard to believe that a human being could write such music. What is special about their brains that they could produce such profundity? Always blows me away.


It's obvious but as you say, the late quartets are up there. I heard the adagio of op 132 today as played by Quator Mosaiques in a 2017 recording on period instruments. Which was one of the most 'profound' feeling recording I have ever heard. Incredible music.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'd like to add Pavel G. Chesnokov - To Thee We Sing
Amazing piece. Basso profundo!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

When I think of the word profound I generally think intellectually profound. Narrow i know. But for intellectually profound i really like Beethoven String Quartets, especially the "late" quartets. I follow along with the score, and I have several "companion" books on them. I am awed by his accomplishment.

But really, profound can include emotionally profound. My experience of emotionally profound music is music that is intimate, but without explicit permission. Music that seems to know me better than i want it too. That seems to be aware of what I think of myself but seldom admit.

In that category, I am especially profoundly moved by two pieces: the second movement of Beethoven's second symphony, and the first movement of Schubert's Unfinished. It is almost embarrassing to listen to those in public, and if i haven't them in a long time they can bring tears.

These last two though genius, are not intellectual triumphs, IMO, as much as emotional. And also, the Beethoven string quartets, while very moving, appeal to me more on the "above the eyebrows" level.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Bach cello suites. I find everything there.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Gallus said:


> Bach cello suites. I find everything there.


Wikipedia (and I) agree... "The Bach cello suites are considered to be among the most profound of all classical music works. Wilfrid Mellers described them in 1980 as "Monophonic music wherein a man has created a dance of God."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Wikipedia (and I) agree...


Can't help but be reminded of Field Marshal Montgomery, addressing his troops before the invasion of Sicily: "Now, in the Bible God says...and I happen to agree with him..."


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> Here's Wikipedia on Shostakovich's 8th SQ, which Barshai worked up into a chamber symphony also, Op. 110a:
> 
> "The quartet was premiered in 1960 in Leningrad by the Beethoven Quartet. The music critic Erik Smith wrote in the liner notes of the Borodin Quartet's 1962 recording that The Borodin Quartet played this work to the composer at his Moscow home, hoping for his criticisms. But Shostakovich, overwhelmed by this beautiful realisation of his most personal feelings, buried his head in his hands and wept. When they had finished playing, the four musicians quietly packed up their instruments and stole out of the room."


The 8th features the DSCH motif - though transposed here. Also found in the 10th sy and elsewhere.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Bach Cello Suites - if there were a piece that could be both intellectually profound and emotionally profound, that would be it IMO.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

WOW! I wish I felt that way! (about Shostakovich being approachable)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

BillT said:


> WOW! I wish I felt that way! (about Shostakovich being approachable)


Not profound and approachable?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I mean, all of Sibelius' symphonies, but the 6th in particular: such a weird, optimistic, and obviously personal symphony--my favorite of the cycle. You feel that that symphony is getting to the heart of things for him.


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Ravel: The Magic Garden from _Ma Mere L'Oye_ 
Brahms: C Major theme from the 4th movement of his Symphony #1
Copland: Shaker Variations from _Appalachian Spring_
Beethoven 9: Ode to Joy

All of these speak to me on a deep spiritual level.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

BillT said:


> WOW! I wish I felt that way! (about Shostakovich being approachable)


Surely the 2nd Piano Concerto is approachable--and great fun!


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## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

Where to start?

Allegri- Miserere, Mei Deus
Byrd- Mass for Four Voices
Purcell- The Fairy Queen, If love's a sweet passion; King Arthur, No joys are above the pleasures of love
Bach- Cantata 123, 1st movt.; Cantata 80, 3rd movt.; Cantata 140; Cantata 78; Cantata 82; Cantata 101; Violin Partita No. 2, Chaconne; St Matthew Passion, especially the first and last movements; The Art of Fugue
Handel- The Messiah, I know that my Redeemer liveth; Concerti Grossi (op. 6)
Mozart- Requiem
Mahler- All of it
Bruckner- Symphonies 4 onwards (I have not yet listened to non-symphonic Bruckner, although I will in the fullness of time)
Wagner- Tristan und Isolde
Rachmaninoff- Symphony No. 2
Vaughan Williams- Romance from Symphony No. 5; The Lark Ascending

These are just what I can think of off the top of my head- were I to consult my music library, that list would be 10 times longer, I'm sure.


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## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

Brahms 4: fourth movement 
Mahler 6: as above.
Bach, Goldberg variations: Aria da Capo
Bruckner 8 - basically all of it, especially the build up to the final climax of the adagio and subsequent coda, and the fourth movement coda
Bruckner 9 - all of it, particularly the adagio
Bruckner 5 - the second theme of the adagio, all of the final movement, with the last 5 minutes on some ridiculous next level
Bruckner 7 - adagio
Mahler 9
Tristan und Isolde - prelude, love duet, liebestod


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## Brucknerphile (Sep 5, 2018)

There is SO much music that is profound, so much that makes a person pause during the hearing, after the hearing and even when contemplating the _next_ hearing of whatever profound piece one has selected to immerse one's attention towards.

If I may turn this discussion around a little bit to pieces that one _plays_ rather than just listens to...

I have been playing keyboard for the last 20+ years as a basically self-taught musician with some great help from a great young UMICH conservatory grad for a couple of years whose help was invaluable.

Whenever I sit down at the keyboard to play the first prelude of Bach's Well Tempered Klavier, Book One, BWV 846--it is to date the only piece that I can completely play from memory, hence I can concentrate completely on my fingers and the sounds I am generating--well, when I play that piece every time that I play it I get a thrill and a sense of sometimes overwhelming awe and profundity and I thank Herr Bach for making a piece that is so rewarding, so intense that I thank him every time for making a piece that I can play--and may I say, play well--that I thank him every time for helping me approach the threshold of profundity when I am at the keyboard working on this amazing piece. It is a piece that flows and has a clarity that is so natural sounding that I feel on the verge of another level of consciousness. I am trying not to sound too mystical but this is a work that makes me so happy that I am a human being and have the ability to make Herr Bach speak to me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What makes music seem "profound" to me is still a bit mysterious. It isn't a simple matter of my being moved by it. Some music just seems to be "above it all"; it expresses an experience of life, but a visionary one, one that cuts through ordinary categories of emotion to some perspective beyond them: a view from the mountaintop, a place reached only by a few composers and, usually, only in later life. Profound music isn't always the most accessible; it isn't preoccupied with surface appeal, it doesn't spring for easy effects or settle for conventional formulae, it doesn't indulge in obvious sentiment, it isn't eager to ingratiate. But if we can follow where it leads, it leaves us feeling that we've gone to a place hard to find, hard to comprehend, sometimes hard to love, but a place deep within ourselves that makes us realize that there are important ways of perceiving reality which we may not have recognized but which, once experienced, raise permanently our expectations of life. And we feel that, like Dante, we've been led through this experience of discovery by a powerful guide. 

I think I've most often felt guided to such profound perceptions by Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner and Sibelius. I could be persuaded to add Mozart and Schubert to that list, based on a few works they composed toward the ends of their brief lives.


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## Oakey (Nov 19, 2017)

It's cliché but for me Beethoven's 9th and Mozart's Requiem. Even if he did not write a large part of it. The two pieces of which I own multiple recordings.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What makes music seem "profound" to me is still a bit mysterious. It isn't a simple matter of my being moved by it. Some music just seems to be "above it all"; it expresses an experience of life, but a visionary one, one that cuts through ordinary categories of emotion to some perspective beyond them: a view from the mountaintop, a place reached only by a few composers and, usually, only in later life. Profound music isn't always the most accessible; it isn't preoccupied with surface appeal, it doesn't spring for easy effects or settle for conventional formulae, it doesn't indulge in obvious sentiment, it isn't eager to ingratiate. But if we can follow where it leads, it leaves us feeling that we've gone to a place hard to find, hard to comprehend, sometimes hard to love, but a place deep within ourselves that makes us realize that there are important ways of perceiving reality which we may not have recognized but which, once experienced, raise permanently our expectations of life. And we feel that, like Dante, we've been led through this experience of discovery by a powerful guide.
> 
> I think I've most often felt guided to such profound perceptions by Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner and Sibelius. I could be persuaded to add Mozart and Schubert to that list, based on a few works they composed toward the ends of their brief lives.


"Some music just seems to be "above it all"; it expresses an experience of life..."
"And we feel that, like Dante, we've been led through this experience of discovery by a powerful guide."

I feel a mystery is, they came to a point in their lives with music - at which they merely thought those thoughts and the music flowed out of them. The technical details evaporated.

This video reinforced this notion for me this morning. It's difficult to watch.. (whether it's accurate or not)

The Double Life of Schubert






Herr Schubert, why is your music so sad?

Why? Is there such a thing as happy music?


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

My take...

Profundity is basically a result of (1) Expressed Emotional Conviction, (2) Expressed Conceptual Significance, and (3) Creativity/Ingenuity. One could say these 3 factors in collaboration, accumulating throughout a work, produce "depth" or "profundity" (commensurate to the consistency and degree in which they have been expressed). 

1. Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824) 
2. Symphony No. 9 in D Major - Gustav Mahler (1910) 
3. Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749) 
4. Symphony No. 9 in C Major "The Great" - Franz Schubert (1826) 
5. Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859) 
6. Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart (1969)
7. Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt (1974)
8. Requiem - Guisseppe Verdi (1874) 
9. The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963)
10. Symphony No. 15 in A Major - Dmitri Shostakovich (1971)


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Brucknerphile said:


> There is SO much music that is profound, so much that makes a person pause during the hearing, after the hearing and even when contemplating the _next_ hearing of whatever profound piece one has selected to immerse one's attention towards.
> 
> If I may turn this discussion around a little bit to pieces that one _plays_ rather than just listens to...
> 
> ...


One of my favorites to play also and I play it periodically to keep it in memory. This work can be played in so many ways: 'Baroque-like' with no pedal with faster tempo, limited pedal with moderate tempo or almost romantic-mode with full pedal and slow-moderate tempo. Great work to play and guaranteed audience-pleaser!


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

janxharris said:


> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/i-dont-get-why-people-worship-bach/


The subtitle of the article: "Johann Sebastian wasn't even the greatest composer in his own family" lets us know immediately that Richard Bratby is a contrarian and an idiot.

A ridiculous article full of inaccuracies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ArsMusica said:


> The subtitle of the article: "Johann Sebastian wasn't even the greatest composer in his own family" lets us know immediately that Richard Bratby is a contrarian and an idiot.


Merely confused. Perhaps Mr. Bratby is neglecting his meds.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2018)

janxharris said:


> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/i-dont-get-why-people-worship-bach/


Excellent article. Shows the way that all such reverential adoration should be treated.

Now, back to the Church of Sibelius...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thayer reports Schindler’s comments: “Beethoven said to me, ‘Anton, come over here. I want to show you a clever way I’ve discovered to make music seem profound.’ And he showed me how, using a series of diminished seventh chords, an impression of great depth of thought could be achieved. Then he laughed heartily: ‘That should hold the ******* for a good while, wouldn’t you say?’ I could only agree.“


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2018)

beetzart said:


> There is something about them that I find it hard to believe that a human being could write such music.





Enthusiast said:


> For me the feeling _that a piece is so amazing that I just can't imagine where it came from _is one I recognise well


That feeling may be recognisable...but is it what we mean by "profound"? If we're considering that such music can't have been written by a human (metaphorically speaking) then 'profound' seems to me to be the wrong word, connecting with the opposite of what is implied by 'divine' (unless we're thinking that it was written by something at the bottom of the Mariana Trench!)


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

To be honest, I view the whole music as not very profound. It does not reach the depths of profoudness that mathematics or physics can reach (not even close). For example the Riemann hypothesis connecting infinite sums to prime numbers etc... So while I admit that Beethoven or Bach is more profound than Glass, even their music is just a human product for me, and I do not feel the same quasi-religious feelings that I get from trying to understand nature.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

A previous discussion of profundity, musical and otherwise:

What is "profundity"?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> To be honest, I view the whole music as not very profound. It does not reach the depths of profoudness that mathematics or physics can reach (not even close). For example the Riemann hypothesis connecting infinite sums to prime numbers etc... So while I admit that Beethoven or Bach is more profound than Glass, even their music is just a human product for me, and I do not feel the same quasi-religious feelings that I get from trying to understand nature.


The phrase "just a human product" is incomprehensible to me. What if we find man to be nature's most magnificent product, and art to be the most magnificent creation of man? In man, nature becomes conscious, and in art, consciousness finds a language in which to express things unknown even to itself.

Nature waited aeons to give itself the B-minor Mass. The fact that it did, gives me all the quasi-religious feelings I can handle.

:tiphat:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What if we find man to be nature's most magnificent product . . .


I, for one, will be terribly disappointed.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Jacck said:


> To be honest, I view the whole music as not very profound. It does not reach the depths of profoudness that mathematics or physics can reach (not even close). For example the Riemann hypothesis connecting infinite sums to prime numbers etc... So while I admit that Beethoven or Bach is more profound than Glass, even their music is just a human product for me, and I do not feel the same quasi-religious feelings that I get from trying to understand nature.


I disagree a bit here. Both math and physics are also mere mental constructs made by humans. Of course, the latter tries to describe the objective reality, and success in doint that, albeit in an approximate way. Music, too, of course, is also a mental construct made by humans, bit it also captures, albeit in a more indirect and vague way, the perceptions of humans beings about themselves and their emotions and aesthetics feelings, which are part of reality, too, but in a more complex way, since are the product of complex matter systems like brains. Thus the differences between science and art are two. One, science refers to the most immediate reality, while art ultimately refers to it too, but through the phenomena in the brain and how they are perceived by one of those very phenomena (consciousness); we could give another name to reality when understood in this second way, a name like 'subjective reality', but it's, ultimately, a part of the former. And the second is the method, which in science is direct, explicit and precise, while in art is indirect, vague and allegorical (perhaps, due to the very nature of subjective reality, which, due to its complexity when seen from how it's produced by its matterial basis, it's hard to analize in precise terms). I think both things offer complementary information. Certainly I would prefer to concentrate only in the scientific part of reality, since it's simpler to analize and it's ultimately the one at the fundamental level, but we cannot escape the subjective reality since we are conscious beings. Thus, I could agree on the ontological prevalence of the scientific reality over the subjective one, but on the other hand I really cannot escape from the latter. Thus, as long as we are human beings, the subjective reality is equally fundamental, at least _to us_.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

JAS said:


> I, for one, will be terribly disappointed.


So true.

If we are the best that a 13.7 billion year old universe, with 200 billion galaxies, each with at least 100 billion stars, and a ridiculously uncountable number of planets (we've discovered over 3700 in just our galactic neighborhood so far!), can do, then it may be time for a 'do over'.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^The above (aleazk's post) would be more persuasive if everyone's response to "Art" or any given piece of artwork--music, sculpture, painting, literary work, whatever--were far more congruent than they actually are. We are aswim in a sea of idiosyncratic subjectivity when discussing or reacting to "Art". And your "Art" often is incomprehensible to another. In contrast, the statements or assertions of mathematics or the sciences transcend this particularity, once the language is shared and understood.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

In my world:

Handel--Messiah, especially "The trumpet shall sound..":



, and "Hallejulah" chorus: 



Handel--Four Coronation Anthems, especially "Zadok the Priest": 



Handel--Samson--"Awake the trumpet's lofty sound" (the excellent McGegan performance isn't on You Tube, so this will have to do: 



etc. etc.

J.S. Bach--Mass in B minor, especially the final "Dona nobis Pacem": 



J.S. Bach--Michaelmas Cantatas, especially BWV 19, with its mind blowing fugal opening: 



J.S. Bach--Christmas Oratorio: 



J.S. Bach--Magnificat: 



J.S. Bach--6 Brandenburg Concertos.
J.S. Bach--all Violin Concerti.
J.S. Bach--6 Partitas, 6 French Suites, Well-Temperered Clavier, Books 1 & 2
etc. etc.

Beethoven--Symphonies 5, 6, 7, 9
Beethoven--String Quartet, Op. 132 (& other "late" quartets)
Beethoven--Piano Concerto No. 5, "Emperor"--especially the beautiful 2nd movement (as played by Claudio Arrau): 



Beethoven--"Moonlight" Piano Sonata, and the late piano sonatas 28-32.
Beethoven--"Spring" Violin Sonata
Beethoven--"Archduke" Piano Trio

Mozart--Mass in C minor: 



, and Requiem: 



Mozart--The Magic Flute
Mozart--Don Giovanni
Mozart--the 10 Great Piano Concertos
Mozart--the 10 Great String Quartets, and 6 String Quintets.
etc. etc.

Haydn--the complete Piano Trios, and String Quartets, Op. 33, 50, 54, 64, 71, 74, 76, etc.

Schubert--String Quartet No. 15--in the 1980s an old Penquin Guide cited this quartet as Schubert's "most profound utterance": 



, String Quintet, and "Ave Maria": 



. Basically, all of "late" Schubert (though he died at only age 31)--any work in the late D.800s and D. 900s.

Josquin Desprez--all of Josquin's works composed in Marian devotion: especially the motet, "Inviolata, integra, et casta es Maria", and Missa Gaudeamus, but also his "Ave Maria", and "O Virgo virginum a 6". For me, Josquin's Marian works comprise one of the most profound & remarkable bodies of work in the history of music:






















Josquin Desprez--the motets "Miserere mei Deus", and "La déploration de Johannes Ockeghem", and his final masses, Missa Panga Lingua, and Missa Sine Nomine:














Jean Mouton--"Nesciens mater virgo virum":





Orlando Lassus--7 Penitential Psalms, and "In monte Oliveti":









Guillaume Dufay--motets: "Nuper Rosarum Flores", "Flos florum", and "Ave Regina Coelorum", etc. etc.:














John Dunstable--"Veni sancte spiritus": 




Philippe De Vitry--motet "Vos quied admiramini - Gratissima viginis species": 



Johannes Ciconia--"O Padua, Sidus Preclarum": 



, and "Sus une fontayne": 



Guillaume de Machaut--motet "Felix Virgo/Inviolata Genitrix/Ad Te Suspiramus: 



Johannes Ockeghem--Requiem, and "Mort, tu as navré ton dart": 



Johannes Lupus--"Ergone conticut": 




Thomas Tallis--"Spem in Alium", and "Miserere Nostri":










William Byrd--Consort song, "Ye Sacred Muses" (elegy on the death of Thomas Tallis): 




Allegri--"Miserere":



Claudio Monteverdi: "Vespro della Beata Vergine"--or Vespers of 1610: 



Eustache du Caurroy: Fantasies (instrumental): 




Chopin 21 Nocturnes: 



Schumann--Piano Quartet, Op. 47--especially the slow movement: 



Schumann--Mignon (for solo piano): 



, and Fantasie in C, Op. 17: 



Brahms String Quintet, Op. 111: 



, Violin Sonatas 1-3: 



, and German Requiem.

Gabriel Faure--Requiem, especially the "Pie Jesu" and "In Paradisum" movements: 



, Piano Quintet No. 1:



;
Claude Debussy--Sonata for flute, harp, and viola: 



, "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun": 



, the "Sirenes" movement from his "Nocturnes": 



, Images Bks. 1 & 2, & Estampes for solo piano:



, and String Quartet.
Maurice Ravel--"Gaspard de la Nuit":



, "Miroirs", "Ma Mere l'Oye", Piano Trio, String Quartet, Introduction et Allegro, "3 Poemes de Stephane Mallarme":



, and his ballet, "Daphnis et Chloe": 



Charles Koechlin: Paysages et marines (chamber arrangement of piano work): 




Sibelius Symphonies 2, 5 & 7: 



Mahler Symphonies 2, 9, the Adagio to the 10th, and his orchestral song, "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" from the 5 Rückert-Lieder: 



.
Wagner--Tristan und Isolde:



, Lohengrin: 



, and Parsifal:https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wagner+parsifal+knappertsbusch+overture
Bruckner Symphonies 4, 9

Richard Strauss--Four Last Songs, and his song, "Morgen" (as sung by Arleen Auger): 



.
Prokofiev Violin Concertos 1: 



, and Piano Sonata Nos. 8, 9:



, and Sonata for flute (or violin), Op. 94 (or Op. 94a): 



Shostakovich--String Quartet No. 8: 



Samuel Barber, "Adagio for Strings", and the 2nd movement of his Violin Concerto (as played by Elmar Oliveira):



Vaughan Williams: "The Lark Ascending": 



Edward Elgar: "Sospiri": 




Vagn Holmboe: Symphony no. 8 "Sinfonia Boreale: 



, and Symphony no. 10: 



Allan Pettersson: Symphony no. 7: 



Joonas Kokkonen: Symphonies 3 & 4: 



Magnus Lindberg Violin Concerto No. 1: 




György Ligeti: Lux Aeterna:



Arvo Part: Stabat Mater, Summa, De Profundis (Hilliard Ensemble, Gidon Kremer): 



John Tavener: "Eternity's Sunrise": 



Ivan Moody: Canticum Canticorum 1: 



Gavin Bryars: "Ave regina gloriosa":


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> The phrase "just a human product" is incomprehensible to me. What if we find man to be nature's most magnificent product, and art to be the most magnificent creation of man? In man, nature becomes conscious, and in art, consciousness finds a language in which to express things unknown even to itself.
> 
> Nature waited aeons to give itself the B-minor Mass. The fact that it did, gives me all the quasi-religious feelings I can handle.
> 
> :tiphat:


Music is some kind of extreme fluke in an endless, anti-music universe. The more you think about it, the more ridiculous it gets. 
How avant-garde are we if earth was in fact the only place in the universe where music is being made?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Simon Moon said:


> So true.
> 
> If we are the best that a 13.7 billion year old universe, with 200 billion galaxies, each with at least 100 billion stars, and a ridiculously uncountable number of planets (we've discovered over 3700 in just our galactic neighborhood so far!), can do, then it may be time for a 'do over'.


That's a rather negative outlook. The "best" the universe can do? You don't seem to appreciate what it "took" for the universe to make earth happen, to make life happen. It's utterly mindblowing. One improbable, random event after another that finally led to us. Think away humans if they disappoint you; earth is still a very special place without them.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^^The above (aleazk's post) would be more persuasive if everyone's response to "Art" or any given piece of artwork--music, sculpture, painting, literary work, whatever--were far more congruent than they actually are. We are aswim in a sea of idiosyncratic subjectivity when discussing or reacting to "Art". And your "Art" often is incomprehensible to another. In contrast, the statements or assertions of mathematics or the sciences transcend this particularity, once the language is shared and understood.


But I did mention all of that, since I said art tends to be vague and difficult to analize, all this in contrast to scientific reality. On the other hand, it's not really as arbitrary as you say (I'm pretty sure almost everyone here likes, e.g., Bach), and that's what makes it interesting, otherwise there would be as many great composers as people are in the planet. But that was not even my main point. My point was that, even when it's vague and not ontologically fundamental, it's fundamental to us since we cannot escape it. Physical reality is fundamental since we cannot escape it, and subjective reality is also fundamental to us, conscious beings, since we cannot perceive reality without it, unless you are dead, but then you are not a conscious being anymore. This is really old stuff, known since Kant. So, I wish good luck to someone trying to ignore their subjective reality or relegating it to a second plane as if it were something not fundamental to us. In fact, even the person saying that he prefers science to art because it feels more deep or whatever, is giving meaning or value to science because the significance it has for his own subjectivity (since to him science feels deep). Thus, it's always at the center of the scene. To pretend it's not fundamental to us is to impose to yourself a delusion.

Pretty much all great scientists understood this, like, e.g., Einstein, who said music meant as much to him as science. See, for example, this.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Oh, it is as arbitrary as I say. Bach may be big here on TC, but as the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia contemplate their wonderful rockface art, very little Bach swirls inside their heads. I really don't disagree that each person's "subjective reality" is as important to them as perhaps the larger, shared (once you learn the "language"), demonstrable (until superceded) revelations of mathematics and science. But if we're discussing the fragile and fugitive concept of Profundity, I find the summing-up of billions of individual subjective realities to be analogous to a river a mile wide and an inch deep, whereas I think the deeper and more universal findings of mathematics and science are a narrower but deeper stream.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Oh, it is as arbitrary as I say. Bach may be big here on TC, but as the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia contemplate their wonderful rockface art, very little Bach swirls inside their heads. I really don't disagree that each person's "subjective reality" is as important to them as perhaps the larger, shared (once you learn the "language"), demonstrable (until superceded) revelations of mathematics and science. *But if we're discussing the fragile and fugitive concept of Profundity, I find the summing-up of billions of individual subjective realities to be analogous to a river a mile wide and an inch deep, whereas I think the deeper and more universal findings of mathematics and science are a narrower but deeper stream.*


What sense is there in comparing philosophy or science with art in a contest of "profundity"?

Your analogy is picturesque. But what is a "summing-up" of subjective realities? Who sums them up, and for what purpose, and by what means? A summation of scientific principles is conceivable (if temporary, as new discoveries are made), but how do we "sum up" anyone's subjective experience of Beethoven's Op. 131, much less all possible or likely subjective experiences of it?

It beats me how the comprehension of an idea which, in the objective language of science, means the same thing to everyone, is in any useful way comparable to the richness and fluidity of meaning (largely too subtle for words) a great work of music arouses from the subconscious depths of the minds of billions of individual listeners.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

"What sense is there in comparing philosophy or science with art in a contest of "profundity"?", you ask. If you recall, we did just that at great length in the TC thread whose link I provided a few posts back. Same arguments made, by me anyway, to my satisfaction then and now. There I elaborated on what I consider the important differences between the "profundities" of the several sorts of learning and experience. I could go back and cut and paste my previous arguments outlining the more fundamental profundities revealed by such as Einstein, Hubble, Darwin _et al._. But I won't.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> "What sense is there in comparing philosophy or science with art in a contest of "profundity"?", you ask. If you recall, we did just that at great length in the TC thread whose link I provided a few posts back. Same arguments made, by me anyway, to my satisfaction then and now. There I elaborated on what I consider the important differences between the "profundities" of the several sorts of learning and experience. I could go back and cut and paste my previous arguments outlining the more fundamental profundities revealed by such as Einstein, Hubble, Darwin _et al._. But I won't.


I think we did it because you expressed a dislike for calling art profound, insisting that the word should properly apply only to fundamental ideas, and I pushed back. What is "profundity"? (posts #19 and #26). You're certainly entitled to use a word as you want to use it, but the fact is that profundity in art is something widely recognized; it's generally felt that a mass of Josquin or a concerto of Brahms has something deeper to say about the experience of being human than does "Jingle Bells," and it's interesting to some of us to consider why.

My point in the sentence you quote is simply that profundity of thought and profundity of artistic expression are not directly comparable (although they do have something in common, which helps to explain why the term is used for both), and ought not to be made to compete for the right to be called what they're called. I can't see your dismissal of one of them as useful.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> To be honest, I view the whole music as not very profound. It does not reach the depths of profoudness that mathematics or physics can reach (not even close). For example the Riemann hypothesis connecting infinite sums to prime numbers etc... So while I admit that Beethoven or Bach is more profound than Glass, even their music is just a human product for me, and I do not feel the same quasi-religious feelings that I get from trying to understand nature.


I don't know the Riemann hypothesis so couldn't comment but I struggle to accept your point. We are all wired differently. For me the depth that some music appears to reach is staggering.

Perhaps I need to study said hypothesis


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> the fact is that profundity in art is something widely recognized; it's generally felt that a mass of Josquin or a concerto of Brahms has something deeper to say about the experience of being human than does "Jingle Bells," and it's interesting to some of us to consider why.


it may be generally felt...and I too can see how obvious the comparison. And yet, the 'why' is elusive. Why should a moment's laughter or joy at such a simple tune - along with its usually happy associations with an annual festival celebrating (whatever Christmas means to us) - be dismissed when considered alongside something deemed "profound"? The meaning of life can be found in many things. I don't see why profundity must be reserved for only the mass or the concerto.



Woodduck said:


> I don't either, and I don't think it is.


Well, you do - you just said so. I didn't mean, literally, "only" the concerto or the mass any more than that was all you meant. We were both using those examples as synechdoche - weren't we?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> it may be generally felt...and I too can see how obvious the comparison. And yet, the 'why' is elusive. Why should a moment's laughter or joy at such a simple tune - along with its usually happy associations with an annual festival celebrating (whatever Christmas means to us) - be dismissed when considered alongside something deemed "profound"? The meaning of life can be found in many things. *I don't see why profundity must be reserved for only the mass or the concerto.*


I don't either, and I don't think it is.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Nature/life are the highest and deepest forms of art, because they are not the creations of men. All art created by men is inspired by nature and is its pale reflection. Men will never create anything as perfect or complex as a rose or a bird. The same with the laws of physics or mathematics (which to some degree reflects these laws). All things created by men are comparatevely more ugly, less perfect and less deep.

or to quote Einstein
_"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear--that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms--it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves.
An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature."_

https://www.colonialtours.com/ebook/ebooks/Albert Einstein - The World as I See it.pdf


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Perhaps I need to study said hypothesis


Don't bother if you did not have like 5-6 semesters of university mathematics courses (complex analysis etc). But try to read something about prime numbers to understand why mathematicians experience them as profoundly mysterious, as building blocks of mathematics that were created by God  I can recommend this book which I read some years ago
https://www.amazon.com/Prime-Obsession-Bernhard-Greatest-Mathematics/dp/0452285259


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2018)

Jacck said:


> Nature/life are the highest and deepest forms of art, because they are not the creations of men. All art created by men is inspired by nature and is its pale reflection. Men will never create anything as perfect or complex as a rose or a bird.


Odd, since man is as much "nature" as is a rose or a bird. Perfection is overrated - but it also takes many forms. The "perfection" of love, for example, in its myriad forms - is as valid as the beauty of a jackdaw or vulture.



Woodduck said:


> I don't either, and I don't think it is.


I think you were using your examples as synechdoche - yes? So was I. Neither of us meant it literally "only" the mass and the concerto.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> Nature/life are the highest and deepest forms of art, because they are not the creations of men. All art created by men is inspired by nature and is its pale reflection. Men will never create anything as perfect or complex as a rose or a bird. The same with the laws of physics or mathematics (which to some degree reflects these laws). All things created by men are comparatevely more ugly, less perfect and less deep.


"Nature/life" is not art at all, much less the deepest form of it. I know of no art _not_ created by man. Art is more than a "reflection" of nature; it's a re-creation or translation which, unlike raw nature, embodies man's values. That is the fundamental business of art, with which nature has nothing to do.

Nature is not there for man. Art is there _only_ for man, and in a manner that nature itself cannot be. To place value on nature is appropriation; to place value on art is appropriate, and it isn't valued according to its approximation to nature. Art may reflect nature, but is not in competition with it; it isn't trying to _be_ nature, but to tell us something _about_ nature - in particular, about our own nature. Representation is only a means to an end of which nature knows nothing.

In what sense is a rose or a bird perfect? In what way is a Mozart aria less perfect? In what respect do you compare the "depth" of a flower with the "depth" of an aria? Why should the achievements of man be less worthy of praise than those of nature? Why the humility before the impersonal? Nature, and life, is full of failure, waste, destruction, suffering, and death. But in art man has a chance to transcend the accidental, to overcome chaos, to experience fulfillment, to suspend time and live in a moment of eternity. Nature refuses to give us that, and so we have art.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> "Nature/life" is not art at all, much less the deepest form of it. I know of no art _not_ created by man. Art is more than a "reflection" of nature; it's a re-creation or translation which, unlike raw nature, embodies man's values. That is the fundamental business of art, with which nature has nothing to do.
> 
> Nature is not there for man. Art is there _only_ for man, and in a manner that nature itself cannot be. To place value on nature is appropriation; to place value on art is appropriate, and it isn't valued according to its approximation to nature. Art may reflect nature, but is not in competition with it; it isn't trying to _be_ nature, but to tell us something _about_ nature - in particular, about our own nature. Representation is only a means to an end of which nature knows nothing.
> 
> In what sense is a rose or a bird perfect? In what way is a Mozart aria less perfect? In what respect do you compare the "depth" of a flower with the "depth" of an aria? Why should the achievements of man be less worthy of praise than those of nature? Why the humility before the impersonal? Nature, and life, is full of failure, waste, destruction, suffering, and death. But in art man has a chance to transcend the accidental, to overcome chaos, to experience fulfillment, to suspend time and live in a moment of eternity. Nature refuses to give us that, and so we have art.


That's quite an assertion: _"Nature/life" is not art at all_.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

janxharris said:


> That's quite an assertion: _"Nature/life" is not art at all_.


This may come down to a disagreement about whether or not there is a divine creator of nature/life, and thus a question about consciousness and intent.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

JAS said:


> This may come down to a disagreement about whether or not there is a divine creator of nature/life, and thus a question about consciousness and intent.


Indeed.
............


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

JAS said:


> This may come down to a disagreement about whether or not there is a divine creator of nature/life, and thus a question about consciousness and intent.


not necessarily. One can feel wonder and a sense of mystery about the laws of nature without believing in any form of intelligent design or a creator. One can be for example a pantheist.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> "Nature/life" is not art at all, much less the deepest form of it. I know of no art _not_ created by man. Art is more than a "reflection" of nature; it's a re-creation or translation which, unlike raw nature, embodies man's values. That is the fundamental business of art, with which nature has nothing to do.
> 
> Nature is not there for man. Art is there _only_ for man, and in a manner that nature itself cannot be. To place value on nature is appropriation; to place value on art is appropriate, and it isn't valued according to its approximation to nature. Art may reflect nature, but is not in competition with it; it isn't trying to _be_ nature, but to tell us something _about_ nature - in particular, about our own nature. Representation is only a means to an end of which nature knows nothing.
> 
> In what sense is a rose or a bird perfect? In what way is a Mozart aria less perfect? In what respect do you compare the "depth" of a flower with the "depth" of an aria? Why should the achievements of man be less worthy of praise than those of nature? Why the humility before the impersonal? Nature, and life, is full of failure, waste, destruction, suffering, and death. But in art man has a chance to transcend the accidental, to overcome chaos, to experience fulfillment, to suspend time and live in a moment of eternity. Nature refuses to give us that, and so we have art.


whether it is art or not is an unimportant semantic issue. Nature can certainly produce the same feelings that art does - sense of beauty, mystery, wonder. You can be "blown away" by a beautiful scenery the same way as from a symphony


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Jacck said:


> not necessarily. One can feel wonder and a sense of mystery about the laws of nature without believing in any form of intelligent design or a creator. One can be for example a pantheist.


In the context of the actual question I was addressing, I believe that I have provided the correct reply (although admittedly identifying the issue and not actually answering it). As for your additional point about the similarity of the response to human-created art and nature/life, I agree, although I generally find the response to be more profound for nature/life and the best art (for me) tends to be that which reflects on such observations.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Jacck said:


> Nature/life are the highest and deepest forms of art...
> 
> or to quote Einstein
> "....."


Yet, Einstein also said:

"I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music ... I get most joy in life out of music."

"Mozart's music is so pure and beautiful that I see it as a reflection of the inner beauty of the universe".


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

jdec said:


> Yet, Einstein also said:
> 
> "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music ... I get most joy in life out of music."
> 
> "Mozart's music is so pure and beautiful that *I see it as a reflection of the inner beauty of the universe*".


that is essentially what I said above, that art is a reflection of nature/universe. And this reflection is product of limited human mind, while the real thing is the original source. Of course art needs not to be inspired in nature only, it can be inspired by the human condition, interpersonal relationships, society etc. But this is nature also. Art is always some kind of reflection of life and its goal is to simulate those emotions that reality can and does induce in us. Mahlers symphony about death or resurrection is inspired by the experience of real death and resurrection. Beethoven's pastoral symphony is inspired by pastoral life and modern music is inspired by the chaos, anxiety and existentionalism of modern society  But Life is the original artist. All the other artists try to copy him.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Jacck said:


> that is essentially what I said above, that art is a reflection of nature/universe. And this reflection is product of limited human mind, while the real thing is the original source. Of course art needs not to be inspired in nature only, it can be inspired by the human condition, interpersonal relationships, society etc. But this is nature also. Art is always some kind of reflection of life and its goal is to simulate those emotions that reality can and does induce in us. *Mahlers symphony about death or resurrection is inspired by the experience of real death and resurrection.* Beethoven's pastoral symphony is inspired by pastoral life and modern music is inspired by the chaos, anxiety and existentionalism of modern society  But Life is the original artist. All the other artists try to copy him.


Well, I assure you that I enjoy Mahler's music "about death" much more than I will ever enjoy the "real" thing.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

jdec said:


> Well, I assure you that I enjoy Mahler's music "about death" much more than I will ever enjoy the "real" thing.


How about the resurrection part?


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

JAS said:


> How about the resurrection part?


I'm afraid I will never experience it (the "real" thing).


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

jdec said:


> I'm afraid I will never enjoy that one (the "real" thing).


For some reason, I am thinking of the joke by Doug Adams from his Hitchhiker's Guide series. In describing the effect of using a particular feature of their space ship, someone says that "It feels like being drunk." The response to that is "Well, that isn't so bad," and the final reply is "Yeah? Tell that to a glass of water."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> whether it is art or not is an unimportant semantic issue. Nature can certainly produce the same feelings that art does - sense of beauty, mystery, wonder. You can be "blown away" by a beautiful scenery the same way as from a symphony


There are feelings I get from _Tapiola_ which are not the same as those I get from a hike in the forest, even though _Tapiola_ is "about" the forest. _Tapiola_ is not about the forest as such, but the forest as conceived by Sibelius, who wrote of the work:

"Wide-spread they stand, the Northland's dusky forests,
Ancient, mysterious, brooding savage dreams;
Within them dwells the Forest's mighty God,
And wood-sprites in the gloom weave magic secrets."

This is not a question of semantics, and it is not unimportant.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Jacck said:


> not necessarily. One can feel wonder and a sense of mystery about the laws of nature without believing in any form of intelligent design or a creator. One can be for example a pantheist.


Yes, and you might've read that there's good reasons in the theoretical ranges of the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs Field to expect that there's 10^500 universes all around us, some contracting quickly, some expanding like ours for a googol years. This to me is a larger view than what humans can imagine about gods. Larger in terms of wonder and mystery. Why, why and why?

Beethoven should have lived to hear this (and JsB too..).. This recent concept was for him and thinkers like him.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> There are feelings I get from _Tapiola_ which are not the same as those I get from a hike in the forest, even though _Tapiola_ is "about" the forest. _Tapiola_ is not about the forest as such, but the forest as conceived by Sibelius, who wrote of the work:
> 
> "Wide-spread they stand, the Northland's dusky forests,
> Ancient, mysterious, brooding savage dreams;
> ...


It's a magnificent piece and the drama that Sibelius evokes is quite astounding. Comparing the mystery and beauty of nature with such music might be said to be comparing apples and oranges.


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## johnlewisgrant (Mar 11, 2013)

St. Matthew's Passion.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

When you hear this, you assume that something very profound is happening: a funeral, a coronation, a royal wedding, my birthday...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> When you hear this, you assume that something very profound is happening: a funeral, a coronation, a royal wedding, my birthday...


Did Beethoven ever hear that performed?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Luchesi said:


> Did Beethoven ever hear that performed?


I believe Beethoven was familiar with _Saul _and its Dead March. From the score, perhaps, although it's likely he also heard that excerpt, at least, at one of Baron van Swieten's soirees. I seem to remember that he mentioned the March in one of his letters...


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

J.S. Bach in general for me, often in places I don't even expect it. For example the other day I was playing through the 2 part invention in C minor and this piece nearly had me in tears.

Then again I find I am able to connect most deeply to music through playing through it, (even if I'm not doing an exceptional job, the act of doing it sparks a realization of the potential of the work in my imagination) eventually I think I will get comparable results from just reading through/analyzing scores, but my reading level is not up to that level at this time.

Some of the best pieces have never been interpreted completely satisfactorily in my mind, so what exists is just the potential of the ideal performance in the score. In some of these cases I will like certain sections by some performers and other passages are done better by others giving me an idea of the potential of the work yet no one living or recorded to my knowledge has completely mastered the work. An example of such a piece is Bach's Chaconne.

I remember reading Brahms felt similarly about Mozart's Don Giovanni (no one could perform it adequately, and he preferred the score). Eventually he did hear a performance conducted by Mahler that he liked.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Josquin13 said:


> Josquin Desprez--all of Josquin's works composed in Marian devotion: especially the motet, "Inviolata, integra, et casta es Maria", and Missa Gaudeamus, but also his "Ave Maria", and "O Virgo virginum a 6".


Nice, O virgo virginum is my favourite Josquin motet!! Thanks for confirming that I'm not slightly crazy, because I've never seen it mentioned in the company of his Ave Maria or De Profundis.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms is a good candidate. Almost terrifying in places, especially the first movement and the crazy double fugue in the second; I love the drastically slowed lau-da-tes in the final movement, which seem to reflect his ideas about meter and "ontological time." He seems to cling to C-major like grim death! An amazing work! So profound!


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## billeames (Jan 17, 2014)

This is a very good thread. In my opinion there is much profound music. Beethoven Missa Solemnis tops the list in my opinion. 
With many symphonies almost at that point. Profundity seems to depend a bit on the quality of performance.

Bach Mass in B Minor. Passions. art of fuge

Beethoven Symphony 5, 9, Missa Solemnis. (cant comment on the piano sonatas, and quartets)

Berlioz Damnation of Faust, Requiem

Brahms piano concertos, violin concerto, symphonies and German Requiem

Brian (an odd case) Symph 1 Gothic. An amazing person who was not rich, and did not make much money, but provided much for posterity. 

Bruckner 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 9 (Te Deum)

Dvorak 7, 8, 9th

Handel Dixit Dominus, Messiah and some other of his other oratorios including Saul. Plus Brockes Passion.

Mahler 2,3, 5, 6, 8 and 9

Mozart Don Giovonni, Mass in c minor. (finest of his works in my opinion)

Nielsen Symph 4. 

Prokofiev 5

Shostakovitch 5 (maybe), 8, 10, 11, 13, 14 (depressing), 15

Sibelius Symphonies (mystery there).

Smetana Ma Vlast Talich 1954. 

Telemann Brockes Passionz

Vaughan Williams maybe the 1st and 2nd symphonies. 

Verdi Otello, Requiem, Don Carlos Maybe Nabucco. 

Vivaldi Kyre rv 587, Gloria RV 588, 589, Dixit Dominus. rv 594. Another Dixit is rv 595 and 807

Wagner Lohengrin, Tannhauser, Ring -- in places, Tristan, Parsifal, 

There are likely more, but these come to mind tonight. I cannot really define what elevates music to the profound state. I think it may be when I am amazed how great a work can be. I need to investigate the Shostikovich quartets now also..


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony. The depth of emotion and the underlying struggle can be overwhelming when I listen to it. Understanding the composer's internal struggle is key, of course, to unraveling and understanding the music. The second movement, for example, is a fantasy dance, a quasi-waltz in a pentameter that no one can dance to, leaving the composer alone on the floor forever. The third movement is scherzo-like march that frolicks and teases until it becomes so overpowering, like the composer's own sexuality, that is tramples to destruction everything in it's path. The symphony ends in complete and profound sense of defeat.


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## Konsgaard (Oct 24, 2014)

Bruckner's 8th and Beethoven's Missa Solemnity. Also the Pastoral.


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