# Music with Christian undertones



## xen

This being my first post..., I hope it's in the right section!

I'm working on a project that is to be performed at a church event. I don't have any immediate ideas, but I've been thinking (rather idealistically) about performing pieces that incorporate Christian hymns, Bible verses, etc... for example, the hymn "Praise God, from Whom All Blessings Flow" appears in the last movement of Mendelssohn's Piano Trio No. 2 in c minor, first in the piano and later again from the piano and passing to the violin and the cello (as supported by the program notes for one performance by the Capuçon/Angelich Trio). I was wondering if anyone knew any pieces that would be similar in characteristic.

Also, any suggestions on how I would go about finding related examples?

*I'm not trying to start a debate on religion or anything - this is just a request for musical knowledge from the smart guys out there. *

Just some additional details:
- preferably not vocal, i.e. masses composed by "standard" composers of classical music. Also, I will most likely not have a large enough number of musicians for full orchestral music. In other words, preferably chamber or solo music.


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## david johnson

hi, xen! 

secure a 'sacred harp', 'missori harmony, 'christian harmony', etc., tune book and arrange some string quartets.

dj


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## xen

Thanks for the reply!

The problem, however, (in which I must apologize for not mentioning), is that it's for my music school's outreach class, so I have to fulfill the class' requirement - the music should mostly/primarily that of professional, standard repertoire. I did ask for arrangements, but that's a little more last-resort. Of course I'm not meaning that arrangements of songs is not part of good performance music, but... ah, you guys should get the point. For the sake of staying on the safe side of the project logistics, I'd like to request music from the general meat of classical music - namely, the Baroque through "Contemporary" period.

Though thanks, DJ, again, for the suggestion! I'll still be writing it down for my outline/brainstorm!


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## david johnson

the books contain william billings and jeremiah ingalls...both often performed by professinal vocal groups.

contact -

Paul Westermeyer
Visiting Professor of Church Music
[email protected]

luck,
dj


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## Rondo

_Messiah_ by Handel is performed quite often in churches. I can think of many others, none of which were composed in English.


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## rborganist

Appropriate music might include the overture from Messiah, Copland's arrangement of "Simple Gifts", and the "Pastoral Symphony" from Messiah. I think Mozart wrote some church sonatas, at least some of which might work for string quartet. Look also at some of Bach's trio sonatas, many of which were transcriptions of works by Vivaldi (or look for the Vivaldi trio sonatas themselves). And don't forget the slow movement of Samuel Barber's string quartet which was later turned into a setting of "Agnus Dei."


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## Stargazer

Here's one by Beethoven, he basically wrote it after recovering from a serious illness, as thanks to the Lord.


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## Celloman

You could look at some music by Charles Ives. His music is filled with hymn quotations, usually in fragments but easy to recognize.


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## Huilunsoittaja

A great deal of Russian music quotes actual Gregorian Orthodox chant in it. Let me give some examples:
















I would not describe these pieces as sacred, but as secular music incorporating sacred elements.


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## KenOC

Huilunsoittaja said:


> A great deal of Russian music quotes actual Gregorian Orthodox chant in it.


Not to mention Rachmaninoff, who had a well-known fixation on a particular chant... Berlioz liked it too, but he wasn't Russian (or at least wouldn't admit to it.)


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Not to mention Rachmaninoff, who had a well-known fixation on a particular chant... Berlioz liked it too, but he wasn't Russian (or at least wouldn't admit to it.)


Are you speaking of the "Dies Irae" ,the Day of Wrath which is Latin.


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## KenOC

moody said:


> Are you speaking of the "Dies Irae" ,the Day of Wrath which is Latin.


I'm open to correction, but I believe most or all Gregorian chants are in Latin. Which is what Huilunsoittaja is talking about. Are "orthodox" Gregorian chants different?


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## DavidA

If you want some non vocal church music try the instrumental parts of Purcell's Music for the funeral of Queen Mary.


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## BurningDesire

Celloman said:


> You could look at some music by Charles Ives. His music is filled with hymn quotations, usually in fragments but easy to recognize.


I'm not sure how much those are supposed to be evocative of Christianity though, as much as just evocative of themselves, and the nostalgia for Ives' childhood they invoked.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> I'm open to correction, but I believe most or all Gregorian chants are in Latin. Which is what Huilunsoittaja is talking about. Are "orthodox" Gregorian chants different?


I wouldn't know and religion and information on it is a mystery to me. Certainly your post was not likely to enlighten anyone,but I know the "Des Irae" mentioned.
Tt's apparently a 13th century Latin hymn att. to either the Franciscan Order or Latino Malabranca Orsiini. It is included in the Roman Classic Requiem mass.
Gregorian chant developed in the 9th and 10th centuries I believe.
So now I have information on the matter !


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## hreichgott

Gregorian chant developed in the Western (Latin-speaking) church. Eastern Orthodox chant came from the Greek-speaking (Eastern) church. According to legend the Holy Spirit dictated the Gregorian chants into the ear of Pope Gregory the Great. The Orthodox consider Gregory a saint but they don't use the music attributed to him. Likewise Roman Catholics consider John Chrysostom a saint, but they don't use his chants, only the Orthodox do.


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## Guest

I thought that the OP was asking for examples of instrumental music with religious undertones which can be performed by a small ensemble. I'm not sure why discussion has moved on to consider Gregorian chant which is unaccompanied sacred song of the Roman Catholic Church.

Better known examples of the requested works would be Biber's Rosary Sonatas, Mozart's Church Sonatas, Haydn's Seven Last Words. 

I would have thought that of these a good one to consider might be the Haydn work. Originally written for a full orchestra, there is a string quartet version, Opus 51, in 7 movements. In addition there is a choral version and another for solo piano.


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## drpraetorus

The finale of Mendelssohns 5th symphony is based on "A Mighty Fortress". 
Beethovens 9th symphony, last movement has been used for "Joyful, joyful"
The main theme from Sibelius's "Finlandia" has become a popular hymn tune. "Be Still My Soul" etc. 
The melody from Gottschalk's "The Last Hope" has been used for many hymns.


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## SixFootScowl

Try Handel's Chandos Anthems, all Bible texts (Psalms) in English. Also Handel's Music for the Chapel Royal is in English.


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## Guest

I don't want to crush you all, but the OP was from 2009 - I don't know if xen is still looking for suggestions.


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## SixFootScowl

DrMike said:


> I don't want to crush you all, but the OP was from 2009 - I don't know if xen is still looking for suggestions.


Ah ha! We were fooled (or didn't bother to check the date). We ought to have a different background color for old threads, eh?


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## Taggart

DrMike said:


> I don't want to crush you all, but the OP was from 2009 - I don't know if xen is still looking for suggestions.


Does it matter? The thread got moved into the Religious Music Section and took off in a way that it didn't in 2009. xen has probably finished his assignment:



xen said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> The problem, however, (in which I must apologize for not mentioning), is that it's for my music school's outreach class, so I have to fulfill the class' requiremen


This was in fact his last post on TC! 

But we're enjoying ourselves so let's forget about the OP and just discuss the music.


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## Svelte Silhouette

I like Saint Saens Psaume xviii


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## Svelte Silhouette

Taggart said:


> Does it matter? The thread got moved into the Religious Music Section and took off in a way that it didn't in 2009. xen has probably finished his assignment:
> 
> This was in fact his last post on TC!
> 
> But we're enjoying ourselves so let's forget about the OP and just discuss the music.


Like others I got caught out by the date and the fact there were recent postings


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## Guest

DrMike said:


> I don't want to crush you all, but the OP was from 2009 - I don't know if xen is still looking for suggestions.


Some of the best things in life are when they're raised from the "dead", as I trust you will agree.


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## Huilunsoittaja

KenOC said:


> I'm open to correction, but I believe most or all Gregorian chants are in Latin. Which is what Huilunsoittaja is talking about. Are "orthodox" Gregorian chants different?


The melodies of Orthodox Chant are _much _different from Catholic Gregorian Chant. You will NEVER find the chants used in Russian music used in Catholic-inspired works of Western Europe. One key figure that differentiates Orthodox chant is the particular modes that they use. They often use the Dorian but the lowest note of the chant is the 5th, not the tonic. Their overall system of melody-making sounds different, with different intervals. A lot of minor sevenths, not as much Phrygian mode I think.


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## Taggart

Huilunsoittaja said:


> The melodies of Orthodox Chant are _much _different from Catholic Gregorian Chant. You will NEVER find the chants used in Russian music used in Catholic-inspired works of Western Europe. One key figure that differentiates Orthodox chant is the particular modes that they use. They often use the Dorian but the lowest note of the chant is the 5th, not the tonic. Their overall system of melody-making sounds different, with different intervals. A lot of minor sevenths, not as much Phrygian mode I think.


Not quite true. A number of modern Catholic composers are interested in Orthodox Chant and use its patterns for modern music - not chant, but liturgical responses. In Norfolk, we're quite lucky, there's a Russian Orthodox group up at Walsingham and a Greek Orthodox church here in Yarmouth. The Yarmouth church also has a blessing of the sea at Epiphany whenever they can find somebody to go into the water to retrieve the cross. (It's on a chain, just in case.)


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## Huilunsoittaja

Taggart said:


> Not quite true. A number of modern Catholic composers are interested in Orthodox Chant and use its patterns for modern music - not chant, but liturgical responses. In Norfolk, we're quite lucky, there's a Russian Orthodox group up at Walsingham and a Greek Orthodox church here in Yarmouth. The Yarmouth church also has a blessing of the sea at Epiphany whenever they can find somebody to go into the water to retrieve the cross. (It's on a chain, just in case.)


Ah, that's interesting. Is this a new or old phenomenon?


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## Taggart

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Ah, that's interesting. Is this a new or old phenomenon?


New. In response to the growth of English in the liturgy and, particularly, because we have just had a recent re-translation (Advent 2011) of the liturgy from the Latin to English so there has been a flurry of new music in response to this.


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## Manxfeeder

Svelte Silhouette said:


> I like Saint Saens Psaume xviii


I wasn't aware of that. I'm listening now. Thanks!


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## Novelette

xen said:


> Just some additional details:
> - preferably *not vocal*, i.e. masses composed by "standard" composers of classical music. Also, I will most likely not have a large enough number of musicians for full orchestral music. In other words, preferably chamber or solo music.


While requesting non-vocal religious music reduces the repertoire substantially, that's not to say that there isn't a good deal out there.

One particularly cherished work comes to mind:

Cherubini: Marche Religieuse

Edit: That is, cherished by me.


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## PeterJB




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## Guest

Since we aren't directly answering the OP anymore, may I post a technical question here?

My recognition of religious music is primarily through vocal parts. I know a mass is a mass because of the vocal parts. As far as I know, if you were to take away the vocal parts, there would be nothing that specifically identifies a work as religious. I know that many of the renaissance mass settings were taken from secular tunes (e.g. Missa l'homme arme from Des Prez).

But I may be wrong. Are there any techniques in composition, other than adding religious vocal and choral parts (or spoken religious text, as is the case for Haydn's 7 Last Words) that are typical for religious music - i.e. definite religious undertones? Would one who wanted to write a religious work use a certain technique that is recognized as being indicative of religious music?


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## DrKilroy

Well, perhaps quoting religious hymns or plainchant? It seems to be the most straightforward way to make an instrumental work religious.

Best regards, Dr


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## Taggart

DrMike said:


> Since we aren't directly answering the OP anymore, may I post a technical question here?
> 
> <Snip>
> 
> Are there any techniques in composition, other than adding religious vocal and choral parts (or spoken religious text, as is the case for Haydn's 7 Last Words) that are typical for religious music - i.e. definite religious undertones? Would one who wanted to write a religious work use a certain technique that is recognized as being indicative of religious music?


Not as far as I know. Simplest one to look at would be Biber's Rosary Sonatas. That is described as programmatic music but it is the titles that make it religious. Here's a nice article that covers much of the ground you're looking at together with a hefty dose of theology. It basically syas that it's the lyrics that make music religious.

Another example would be Mahler's 8th> Although it borrows from the_ Veni Creator Spritus_, it is not (usually) thought of as a piece of religious music.


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## Guest

Taggart said:


> Not as far as I know. Simplest one to look at would be Biber's Rosary Sonattas. That is described as programmatic music but it is the titles that make it religious. Here's a nice article that covers much of the ground you're looking at together with a hefty dose of theology. It basically syas that it's the lyrics that make music religious.
> 
> Another example would be Mahler's 8th> Although it borrows from the_ Veni Creator Spritus_, it is not (usually) thought of as a piece of religious music.


That is what I thought. There are numerous non-choral works that are religious in nature . . . but only if you know the name. Examples include the Rosary Sonatas you mentioned, or Messian's Vingt Regards sur L'enfant-Jesus, but if you had never heard them before, and didn't know the names, I doubt you could say, "Aha, that is religious music."


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## Guest

DrMike said:


> Since we aren't directly answering the OP anymore, may I post a technical question here?
> 
> My recognition of religious music is primarily through vocal parts. I know a mass is a mass because of the vocal parts. As far as I know, if you were to take away the vocal parts, there would be nothing that specifically identifies a work as religious. I know that many of the renaissance mass settings were taken from secular tunes (e.g. Missa l'homme arme from Des Prez).
> 
> But I may be wrong. Are there any techniques in composition, other than adding religious vocal and choral parts (or spoken religious text, as is the case for Haydn's 7 Last Words) that are typical for religious music - i.e. definite religious undertones? Would one who wanted to write a religious work use a certain technique that is recognized as being indicative of religious music?


I'm not aware of any special techniques in composition that are/have been typically applied in religious music. Take for example the choral version of a "Mass". There have been umpteen different styles of composition applied down the ages to each element of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus etc). Clearly there are no hard and fast rules. Provided the given set of words for each element have been set to music, however it was composed, then you have a choral Mass. I can't think of any other types of sacred music in the Western tradition where anything different applies.


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## Mahlerian

DrMike said:


> That is what I thought. There are numerous non-choral works that are religious in nature . . . but only if you know the name. Examples include the Rosary Sonatas you mentioned, or Messian's Vingt Regards sur L'enfant-Jesus, but if you had never heard them before, and didn't know the names, I doubt you could say, "Aha, that is religious music."


Messiaen and Bruckner both had an abiding love of chorales and slow tempos, more interest in expressing the external than the internal, and an interest in extremes of joy and violence. Also, they were both organists who excelled at improvisation.


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## Flamme

Not so related to subject but very interesting


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## SixFootScowl

Flamme said:


> Not so related to subject but very interesting


I am stunned! I started listening and can't turn it off. It is absolutely beautiful and mysterious. In some ways seems like the female version of Gregorian chant.


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## Flamme

There are many things lying in the dust in the east that testify about how entangled christianity and islam were in the beginning...This sure is ''westernized'' versiion but even like that it carries that veil of mystery West cannot produce...


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## Flamme

This is very refreshing and powerful....


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## Flamme

Gentle bells in the beginning add a nice touch...


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## Guest

Flamme said:


> There are many things lying in the dust in the east that testify about how entangled christianity and islam were in the beginning...This sure is ''westernized'' versiion but even like that it carries that veil of mystery West cannot produce...


It isn't really that surprising - after all, Christianity and Islam both arose in the same region (as did Judaism). We think of Christianity as a Western religion, and associate it with Europe and the West, but it first grew up in the Middle East. And there was a great deal of interaction with the Middle East - Europe was heavily involved there for a long time, as it was the site of the Holy Land. Then you also have places like Istanbul/Constantinople where they were mixing together. Consider also the mixing that must have occurred in Spain during the time that the Moors held control. Christianity and Islam have been rubbing elbows for practically their whole existence, and there are still significant Christian populations in otherwise Muslim nations who, apart from religion, share other cultural ties.


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## Eschbeg

DrMike said:


> Are there any techniques in composition, other than adding religious vocal and choral parts (or spoken religious text, as is the case for Haydn's 7 Last Words) that are typical for religious music - i.e. definite religious undertones


It has been common throughout history for composers of sacred music to employ musical devices that are nearly imperceptible to the ear but serve important structural functions. This was seen as a metaphor for the mysterious and ultimately ungraspable nature of the divine: in the same way that these devices can be analyzed but not necessarily heard, the divine can be contemplated but not directly experienced.

The devices have changed over time, but many sacred works have used this concept in one way or another. In medieval organum, the notes of the drone are taken from the preexisting plainchant of which it is a re-setting. In Renaissance masses, the cantus firmus is sometimes very deeply embedded in the texture such that one really has to search in order to find it. Isorhythmic motets have arcane rhythmic and pitch patterns that are pretty much only noticeable by studying the score rather than by listening to the piece.

This practice continued right up to the 20th century. One can argue that Messiaen's arcane rhythms, in which (for example) eight whole notes tied to a 32nd note are juxtaposed with eight whole notes tied to a 16th, as if the listener could plausibly hear the difference, comes out of the same tradition: musical features that are more likely to be noticed by reflecting on the piece (i.e. analyzing it) rather than by listening to it.

None of these techniques are absolutely exclusive to sacred music (no musical style has a monopoly on any particular musical device), so in that sense, to answer your question, no: a piece that used isorhythm would not necessarily be identifiable as religious for that reason alone. But historically--until the advent of serialism, anyway--sacred music was more prone than secular to employ such techniques, and a listener with knowledge of music history would recognize that an isorythmic piece is using a technique that came out of sacred music, which I suppose is the next closest thing. It would not have "definite religious undertones," as you put it, but it would be "typical for religious music."


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## Flamme




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## Flamme

DrMike said:


> It isn't really that surprising - after all, Christianity and Islam both arose in the same region (as did Judaism). We think of Christianity as a Western religion, and associate it with Europe and the West, but it first grew up in the Middle East. And there was a great deal of interaction with the Middle East - Europe was heavily involved there for a long time, as it was the site of the Holy Land. Then you also have places like Istanbul/Constantinople where they were mixing together. Consider also the mixing that must have occurred in Spain during the time that the Moors held control. Christianity and Islam have been rubbing elbows for practically their whole existence, and there are still significant Christian populations in otherwise Muslim nations who, apart from religion, share other cultural ties.


Yup, Christ was a ''brown skin'' rather than blue eyed ''aryan'' as often depicted...


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## DavidA

Flamme said:


> Yup, Christ was a ''brown skin'' rather than blue eyed ''aryan'' as often depicted...


One problem we have in the West is that we tend to forget the New Testament is a basically Jewish book about a Jewish Messiah. There is only one Gentile author (Luke) - the rest were Jews stepped Jewish culture. Their God certainly wasn't an Etonian gentleman!


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## Flamme




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## Jobis

DavidA said:


> One problem we have in the West is that we tend to forget the New Testament is a basically Jewish book about a Jewish Messiah. There is only one Gentile author (Luke) - the rest were Jews stepped Jewish culture. Their God certainly wasn't an Etonian gentleman!


If only that was the only thing about the new testament we kept forgetting...


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## Flamme

Serbian Saint Sava has a ''slava'' today in Serbia...Great and calming choir with beautiful imagery among others the Saint Sava Temple in Belgrade the biggest orthodox church on balkans


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