# Mahler's Fifth



## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

Hello everyone. I'll start with a brief intro. I'm not a musician and know nothing about music or musical theory from a technical standpoint. Having said that, I've been listen to a great deal of classical music for the last three years.
I'm listening to Mahler nowadays and going through the symphonies in their chronological order. I've reached the Fifth, and I can't help being a little disappointed. I adored the first four symphonies, but this one has so far been a let down. I do enjoy parts of it and two of the individual movements tremendously but as a whole I can't seem to think of the work as a great achievement. So I'd love to hear what you guys have to say about the Fifth.


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

I guess you should count yourself lucky as most people have trouble just "getting" Mahler. As regards the fifth, which is considered his most accessible, I would say try some other recordings of it and I bet you will find one you like. I think it and probably all Mahler symphony's have so much orchestral color that subtle shifts can really change the feel of the work as a whole. A few recommendations would be Abbado and the CSO and Kondrashin with the USSR state symphony orchestra.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Fifth is one of Mahler's most tightly unified symphonies (along with the Sixth and the Eighth), but a lot of the connections are far from obvious on first acquaintance. Perhaps the easiest way to think of it is using Mahler's own division:

Part 1: Movements 1 and 2 - Introductory funeral march and stormy sonata-allegro (near end, attempt at final resolution that fails)
Part 2: Movement 3 - Scherzo, the longest movement, turning the themes of movement 2 into an outburst of joy
Part 3: Movements 4 and 5 - A lyrical intermezzo that introduces the second theme of the finale, and a finale that recapitulates the final resolution of the second movement and carries it through


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> The Fifth is one of Mahler's most tightly unified symphonies (along with the Sixth and the Eighth), but a lot of the connections are far from obvious on first acquaintance. Perhaps the easiest way to think of it is using Mahler's own division:
> 
> Part 1: Movements 1 and 2 - Introductory funeral march and stormy sonata-allegro (near end, attempt at final resolution that fails)
> Part 2: Movement 3 - Scherzo, the longest movement, turning the themes of movement 2 into an outburst of joy
> Part 3: Movements 4 and 5 - A lyrical intermezzo that introduces the second theme of the finale, and a finale that recapitulates the final resolution of the second movement and carries it through


Nothing to add ; then bravo. :tiphat:


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> The Fifth is one of Mahler's most tightly unified symphonies (along with the Sixth and the Eighth), but a lot of the connections are far from obvious on first acquaintance. Perhaps the easiest way to think of it is using Mahler's own division:
> 
> Part 1: Movements 1 and 2 - Introductory funeral march and stormy sonata-allegro (near end, attempt at final resolution that fails)
> Part 2: Movement 3 - Scherzo, the longest movement, turning the themes of movement 2 into an outburst of joy
> Part 3: Movements 4 and 5 - A lyrical intermezzo that introduces the second theme of the finale, and a finale that recapitulates the final resolution of the second movement and carries it through


Indeed this is why one needs a Mahlerian


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Check out the thread mahlerian wilderness in this section- I am on a v similar trajectory to you. Welcome to the forum by the way. I have found T C to be an invaluable companion on my journey...there are many very well informed, interested and helpful folk here.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> The Fifth is one of Mahler's most tightly unified symphonies, but a lot of the connections are far from obvious on first acquaintance.


Indeed, there's a lot of unification going on; and it's not confined to the 5th symphony itself. The trumpet figure at the very opening of the 5th symphony is a deliberate quote from the climax of the first movement of the 4th.


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## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

Hmmm... I'm listening and relistening. Hopefully, I'll figure this one out


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## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

juliante said:


> Check out the thread mahlerian wilderness in this section- I am on a v similar trajectory to you. Welcome to the forum by the way. I have found T C to be an invaluable companion on my journey...there are many very well informed, interested and helpful folk here.


Thanks  And yeah, I can tell that. I have several books on classical and a growing collection, so I'm no stranger to this. But it's interesting to have a chat about it with other people to see what they think.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Jaffer said:


> Hmmm... I'm listening and relistening. Hopefully, I'll figure this one out


What recording(s)?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Indeed, there's a lot of unification going on; and it's not confined to the 5th symphony itself. The trumpet figure at the very opening of the 5th symphony is a deliberate quote from the climax of the first movement of the 4th.


The second movement finds an echo in the Rondo-Burleske of the Ninth, and there's a Kindertotenlieder quote in the first movement...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Jaffer said:


> Hmmm... I'm listening and relistening. Hopefully, I'll figure this one out


You will get it...eventually.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> The second movement finds an echo in the Rondo-Burleske of the Ninth, and there's a Kindertotenlieder quote in the first movement...


Indeed so. "Nun seh' ich wohl, warum so dunkle Flammen" if memory serves correctly.


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## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

Vaneyes said:


> What recording(s)?


I was using Bernstein but now I'm listening to Abbado's version of it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Indeed so. "Nun seh' ich wohl, warum so dunkle Flammen" if memory serves correctly.


I was thinking of "Nun will die Sohn so hell aufgehn." The ending of the melody is echoed in the ending of the second appearance of the second theme.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Jaffer said:


> I was using Bernstein but now I'm listening to Abbado's version of it.


Berstein's is very idiosyncratic (as are most of his Mahler recordings) and is probably not a good introduction to the work. Abbado's should be better for getting familiar with it. Is it with the BPO? I know Abbado recorded later with the Lucerne FO, which is a great version too.


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## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Berstein's is very idiosyncratic (as are most of his Mahler recordings) and is probably not a good introduction to the work. Abbado's should be better for getting familiar with it. Is it with the BPO? I know Abbado recorded later with the Lucerne FO, which is a great version too.


It's the Lucerne FO but I'll look into the BPO too.
Also, could you explain what you mean when you call Bernstein's "idiosyncratic"?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> I was thinking of "Nun will die Sohn so hell aufgehn." The ending of the melody is echoed in the ending of the second appearance of the second theme.


Yes, of course. However, I'm pretty sure that "Nun seh' ich wohl" is quoted in one of the symphonies... but which? This is going to drive me nuts, I know it!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Yes, of course. However, I'm pretty sure that "Nun seh' ich wohl" is quoted in one of the symphonies... but which? This is going to drive me nuts, I know it!


There's a similar phrase in the variation movement of the Fourth, which was written before the Kindertotenlieder.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> There's a similar phrase in the variation movement of the Fourth, which was written before the Kindertotenlieder.


That's it... I got the cardinality wrong


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I love the fifth. It's the Mahler symphony that always keeps me at the edge of my seat, always guessing, always trying to figure it out again from a new perspective. I never tire of it, it always becomes more interesting. Recordings I like include Shipway and Karajan.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Pugg said:


> You will get it...eventually.


 And if you don't get it, don't worry. Some very great musicians have never appreciated Mahler. Carlos Kleiber apparently refered to his entire output as a "neurotic mess". Furtwangler had to be arm twisted into conducting Mahler. You'll be in good company.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Triplets said:


> And if you don't get it, don't worry. Some very great musicians have never appreciated Mahler. Carlos Kleiber apparently refered to his entire output as a "neurotic mess". Furtwangler had to be arm twisted into conducting Mahler. You'll be in good company.


Same thing with hating Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, and any other great composer.


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## Jaffer (Jun 28, 2016)

Triplets said:


> And if you don't get it, don't worry. Some very great musicians have never appreciated Mahler. Carlos Kleiber apparently refered to his entire output as a "neurotic mess". Furtwangler had to be arm twisted into conducting Mahler. You'll be in good company.


But I love Mahler. Absolutely adore him to bits. I must have listened to the first two symphonies at least fifty times each. Symphony 3 and 4 were revelations as well. I'm already changing my opinion of the Fifth and am coming round to appreciating it. The third movement is brilliant. Sometimes it just requires repeated listens before you fully understand and appreciate the nuances of a work, especially for someone like me who can't read music, doesn't play an instrument and has never enrolled in a music class.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Jaffer said:


> It's the Lucerne FO but I'll look into the BPO too.
> Also, could you explain what you mean when you call Bernstein's "idiosyncratic"?


Bernstein puts a very strong personal touch by overemphasizing and underlying every contrast and conflict and having a very broad tempo; often much too slow. Sometimes it feels that the thread of the musical argument is lost in his overindulgence.

I like both of Abbado's recordings, with BPO and Lucerne FO.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> Same thing with hating Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, and any other great composer.


But with Mahler being immensely popular these days, it's important to say this about him especially.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Jaffer said:


> But I love Mahler. Absolutely adore him to bits. I must have listened to the first two symphonies at least fifty times each. Symphony 3 and 4 were revelations as well. I'm already changing my opinion of the Fifth and am coming round to appreciating it. The third movement is brilliant. Sometimes it just requires repeated listens before you fully understand and appreciate the nuances of a work, especially for someone like me who can't read music, doesn't play an instrument and has never enrolled in a music class.


This has been discussed here many times. The 5th was a departure for Mahler, and as such, seems to challenge listeners who respond very favorably to the 'Wunderhorn' Symphonies. My response was similar to your own. In my case it took me a decade or so before I warmed up to 5. Now I probably listen to it more than any other Mahler symphony


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

From Tony Duggan's updated synoptic survey of the Mahler 5th recordings...

_"With each new symphony - and sometimes with each new movement inside each new symphony - we are taken into a different world. In each case there is a passionate, even desperate identification with a certain attitude - but only in the last resort, for what it is worth; suddenly the scene changes and another attitude is being identified with - but again, only for what it is worth." So wrote Deryck Cooke on what another Mahler scholar, Neville Cardus, characterised as Mahler's ability to "shed a skin" with each new work. This aspect of his creative life was never more in evidence than with the arrival of the Fifth Symphony and the two symphonies that followed. The Wunderhorn-based visions and dreams of the first four symphonies that, along with first love and religious questioning, provided an escape valve and a vast comfort-zone, were replaced in the three purely instrumental works of his middle period by a clear resolve to face the realities of life. No more fairy tales, no more theology, no more overt programmes, no more voices, no more poetry. Structures are tighter and more symphonic, textures are clearer and more experimental, ideas are more uncompromising and more self-centred. There are still the vestiges of the past. No artist's creative life is neatly compartmentalised. There are Wunderhorn song analogies in two of the three works but the context has changed. Song influences in these works are now just as likely to come from Mahler's settings of poems by Freidrich Ruckert which run contemporary with them. So with the Fifth Symphony Mahler grows up, puts away childish things and sees the world through a glass sometimes darkly sometimes not. _


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mahler 5 was my first Mahler at the age of 14 and I loved it so much that it took me ages to get over my disappointment that the others didn't sound the same! As for versions - there are many that are good and some that may be good but I never liked. It was Barbirolli who introduced the work to me (via the local library) and his is a great recording even if his last movement is a bit of a mess. I don't see why Bernstein's wonderful recording with the VPO should make it more difficult to like but his is an emotional reading of a turbulent work. I've been happy with the cheap version conducted by Antoni Wit, with Tennstedt (especially the live one) and with the supposedly underrated Frank Shipway. I do dislike the much praised Barshai recording, though, and was never that happy with Haitink's recording. Also, I don't think it is the best Mahler symphony to enjoy Kubelik's or Neumann's undeniably attractive approaches. For me it is a work that hits you in the gut from the moment the orchestra enters after the opening trumpet, and those turbulent first two movements are some of the most incredible in music. The wonderful Scherzo, with its obbligato horn (a real strength in the Barbirolli version thanks to Nick Busch's wonderful playing and oh-so English French horn sound), and the cool sublime Adagio are a perfect foil to these opening movements. A lot hangs on the last movement and it seems to be very hard to make it sound natural (in structure) rather than forced.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Xaltotun said:


> I love the fifth. It's the Mahler symphony that always keeps me at the edge of my seat, always guessing, always trying to figure it out again from a new perspective. I never tire of it, it always becomes more interesting. Recordings I like include Shipway and Karajan.


Both of them are great.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Triplets said:


> This has been discussed here many times. The 5th was a departure for Mahler, and as such, seems to challenge listeners who respond very favorably to the 'Wunderhorn' Symphonies. My response was similar to your own. In my case it took me a decade or so before I warmed up to 5. Now I probably listen to it more than any other Mahler symphony


I guess my starting with the 5th to listen through the whole cycle was a good move (and the 5th I started with is Shipway). Although I had heard the first in concert last year, which is what finally moved me to try Mahler in a big way. I have heard all nine now (started July 13 of this year) and I like them all.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Florestan said:


> I guess my starting with the 5th to listen through the whole cycle was a good move (and the 5th I started with is Shipway). Although I had heard the first in concert last year, which is what finally moved me to try Mahler in a big way. I have heard all nine and like them all.


It was also the first one I listened to. Course listening to him was a challenge. With nearly all of his symphonies over 50 minutes.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> It was also the first one I listened to. Course listening to him was a challenge. With nearly all of his symphonies over 50 minutes.


Yes, the challenge is taking in the symphony as a unit work. It is too easy to pick up bits and pieces and I think I still have to get to that unit work experience on most of them, but for #1, #5, and #8 I have spent more time with and have a better feel for.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Yes, the challenge is taking in the symphony as a unit work. It is too easy to pick up bits and pieces and I think I still have to get to that unit work experience on most of them, but for #1, #5, and #8 I have spent more time with and have a better feel for.


You had asked if Mahler had come before Beethoven how would he have influenced him. Beethoven I think would have tried to make even longer symphonies.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Yes, the challenge is taking in the symphony as a unit work. It is too easy to pick up bits and pieces and I think I still have to get to that unit work experience on most of them, but for #1, #5, and #8 I have spent more time with and have a better feel for.


Do it in your time and your way, you always knows what best for you . :tiphat:


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Mahler wrote a lot of great symphonies. And all of them are long and complex.


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