# Wang and Lang



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

What is your honest fair opinion of their recordings/performances?
master pianists, great, excellent, better than average, or just OK?
Their concerts sell out world wide. 
Poll time, cast your votes.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Or please add in any other pianists who you feel are commercialized, *milking the cow*, over rated. 
Not like the old masters use to play Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Brahms, Beethoven,,thats for sure. 
New artist does not equate to superior performances, 
New is not always better you know.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

just arrived Grimaud's ravel concerto/ she has 2 records out, I have both, both are closely a copy, 
This is the Zinman/Baltimore. 
The basic structure is all there,,,but in the details, she is sloppy, amateurish. 
This concerto is way over her head, Over Lang's ability and oway out of reach for Miss Wang. 
You see in the romantic material, the 3 shine like bright stars inn the heavens, Give them 20th C concertos, now their heavenly status falls like shooting stars falling to the mud. 
Ziman and Corbos Lobos , both are OK, nothing great, both orchestras are OK to fair, nothing like from the golden era. 
Oh how CM has fallen, fallen,,,in 100 yrs it will all be mushy and greyish. 
The Golden era is over. 
It died along with the last of the great composers, 
In 100 yrs CM performers will be average, nothing more. 
and folks will fill the seats cheering as if they are getting *The real deal*. 
I give Grimaud 3 stars on both. or lets say 7 stars of 10. 
Cplus. 
She plays the middle movement way too slow and over sentimental, It just lacks finesse and character. 
She fills every seat world wide $100 a pop. 
Death of CM, its upon us now, 
And the amazon is burning to the ground.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I listened to a good sample of both their performances and recordings. Both pretty forgettable. I'd say Lang Lang is more individual, but he turns the music into caricatures, overemphasing little things or a certain feature, and missing out on building something more overall. His interpretation of the famous part of Rachmaninov Rhapsody is in my opinion the worst I've ever heard. Fattens out the slim and slims down the fat (or rather speeds up the slow and slows down the fast), in such a way it takes away the whole point of the music.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Don't think being showy make good pianists. To me, that is what they both seem to be, concentrating more on acrobatics over the piano and how they look at the expense of how they are performing


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> just arrived Grimaud's ravel concerto/ she has 2 records out, I have both, both are closely a copy,
> This is the Zinman/Baltimore.
> The basic structure is all there,,,but in the details, she is sloppy, amateurish.
> This concerto is way over her head, Over Lang's ability and oway out of reach for Miss Wang.
> ...


I suspect you haven't listen to a lot of Hélène Grimaud's work.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Everyone on amazon has praised Wang's Paganini concerto. 
So I just visted her YT upload. 
yuckky, I hardly recognize the work,. I use to listen to it every day, with all russian pianists back in the day on LP's,. 
I am telling you CM is getting cheated , distorted, robbed, polluted, diluted. 
You don;'t believe me I know this, You think i am a fool, as their seats fill the concert halls. 
I am saying the crwods that fill the concerts, have no stereo, no cd collection, do not know how to upload a MP 3 format (as i don't either), and yet they rave over the new artists. 
The Millennials will fill the concert seats in 20 yrs from now k, saying *wow what a great artist*, Yet you and i know we have 10 CDs in our collection which are *WOWS*. 
CM is dying.

I re-grade Wang down to D minus in this *performance*, D MINUS,,yet the crowds give her 3 standing ovations. THREE!!!!!!!!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Oh so i see, We have a Grimaud fan club here on TC, How could I NOT guess so? 
All apologies to Grimaud's fan club here on TC, I am out numbered 10 to 1. 
In fact no doubt I am the only one. Now her rachmaninov was pretty good, I wpuld say, I think it was the 2nd, yes the 2nd rachmaninov, played with skill and passion. 
I find Grimaud hit N miss.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

btw the Brahms is nota difficult concerto, You do realize,,Its pretty straight foward. 
I just skimmed through it, Typical piece Wang and Lang would play, Nice easy, yet gets great applause. 
She did OK in the Brahms , not any better than the 100 recordings you have in your collection.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Judith said:


> Don't think being showy make good pianists. To me, that is what they both seem to be, concentrating more on acrobatics over the piano and how they look at the expense of how they are performing


Thanks a lot! You are 100% to the point. Chinese pianists aren't my favourites. The Chinese circus is super... :tiphat:


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> btw the Brahms is nota difficult concerto, You do realize,,Its pretty straight foward.
> I just skimmed through it, Typical piece Wang and Lang would play, Nice easy, yet gets great applause.
> She did OK in the Brahms , not any better than the 100 recordings you have in your collection.


My references show the Brahms 1st to be a fairly difficult concerto (the #2 one of the most difficult). Do you have references indicating that the #1 is 'not a difficult concerto'.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

As far as I'm concerned, every piano concerto is difficult.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well what led me a further deeper critque of Wang, as at the 1st, I LOVED her,,then i watched the 2 or 3 YT uploads of a day in her life,,,so i carefully noted what she said. 
I do not believe she loves CM as much as most might believe. I mean she enjoys pop music, before/after a concert duh? 
Head phones pop/jazz pre concert?
Then I went to see her asian counter part , Lang. 
he's OK, not worth $100 a seat, and a standing ovation. 
I just see folks having no access to historic great recordings, and they know no better. 
Its all sensationalism today,,and that is not going away anytime soon. 
Now Hillary Hahn is the real deal. Only if you like Mendelsohn, Sibelius, Bruch. , Bach, thats all she concerts.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> well what led me a further deeper critque of Wang, as at the 1st, I LOVED her,,then i watched the 2 or 3 YT uploads of a day in her life,,,so i carefully noted what she said.
> I do not believe she loves CM as much as most might believe. I mean she enjoys pop music, before/after a concert duh?
> Head phones pop/jazz pre concert?
> Then I went to see her asian counter part , Lang.
> ...


God help you if Hillary Hahn ever hits a clam or lets you down. You'll have no place to turn because you've already created such a bleak picture. And what you're saying about the concert halls is simply not true. At least in the big markets, there is a mixture of the traditional and the new or modern in the way of music, including commissioned premieres. Smaller markets are of course more conservative. But not everyone goes to the concert halls anyway. They listen at home where the choices are unlimited and can sound great if their sound system consists of more than two tin cans tied together by a string. People do not like to be force-fed somebody else's taste, and most people can find something that they're looking for if they're looking up for it rather than down. I've seen ticket prices at the LA Philharmonic for a little is $17, though prices will of course vary depending on where one lives. But no one is required to pay $100 for a ticket to hear the big names under most circumstances.

https://radionetwork.wfmt.com/programs/los-angeles-philharmonic/

In Los Angeles alone there will be 6 LA Phil-commissioned world premieres from the many of the outstanding composers of our time, including Thomas Adès, Unsuk Chin, John Adams, Christopher Cerrone, Steve Reich, and Andrew Norman.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> God help you if Hillary Hahn ever hits a clam or lets you down. You'll have no place to turn because you've already created such a bleak picture. And what you're saying about the concert halls is simply not true. At least in the big markets, there is a mixture of the traditional and the new or modern in the way of music. Smaller markets are of course more conservative. But not everyone goes to the concert halls anyway. They listen at home where the choices are unlimited and can sound great if their sound system consists of more than two tin cans tied together by a string. People do not like to be force-fed somebody else's taste, and most people can find something that they're looking for if they're looking up for it rather than down. It's hard to imagine anyone more healthy or body and mind and gifted with talent than Hilary Hahn.
> 
> https://radionetwork.wfmt.com/programs/los-angeles-philharmonic/


Now this is a fair post,. 
Look Hillary Hahn sold out 4 shows in Chicago, all Sibelius. Chicago isa 4M size community, and i am sure some folks drove 100+ miles to get to the show.

I mean if folks want to spend $100 to hear Lang and Wang, good for them. 
I have a huge french tube amp, tube opre, tube Cd player etc . so its unlikely I can skip a great perf on a cd at home, , to go pay $100+ to hear a 2nd rate performance. Thats all i am saying.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Oh how CM has fallen, fallen,,,in 100 yrs it will all be mushy and greyish.
> The Golden era is over.


Ohh how right you are, if Petterson and Henze are the best that on offer from the last 80+ years then we are in dire straits so I will stick with Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius and Nielsen.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

If Yuja released a recording of her live Hammerklavier I would snap it up in a breathless instant... I also like her recent release with Rach and Scriabin... I think she has actually changed the game for younger pianists, compared to the previous obsession with completiism in the industry...

What about Trifonov? I attended his live Prokofiev 3rd with Nagano and Toronto and the middle movement impressed ... the CD with the Paganini is actually more about the variation pieces for me, which are more scarce...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Of the 100 Rachmaninov, Brahms, beethoven, Beethoven has 200+ recordings,,,have you , honestly known a bad/poor recording in the entire catalogue?
I have not, All sound quite good. 
But when you come to modern concertos,,here we separate the amateurs from the masters. Wang, Grimaud can not play a Henze PC with any degree of success. 
they are romantic pianists. 
They will readily admit it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Look if we all give Zimmerman top honors in the Ravel, what stars should we allow to Grimaud's, 2 efforts?
3 stars? 
Can 't grant 4, no way,
7 stars out of 10. Best I can do.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Look like the asians have dominated and will continue to provide the source group for new concert pianists in the distant future. 
I think Wang is fully aware she may get shoved aside a bit, as new stars make their way on to the concert stages around the world, Which is why Wang is playing out the minor concertos in her early 
Wang part 1
, Brahms, Rachmaninov etc,,then when her popularity starts to wane a bit,,she;ll bring out the BIG GUNS,, 
Wang Part Two:
all 5 Beethoven concertos. I can predict her next move, so clearly, Smart lady for sure. 
Play the system, that's what life is all about. 
Her Beethoven concertos will boost her concert demands high and she;ll be right back in business. 
Smart girl I tell you. 
Looks like the majority are asian here in the Hilton Head international Piano Comp,,though Anna Han is from the USA. 
90% of the repertoire is romantic...smart contestants, 
The future of piano performers looks to be like a continuation of 
Lang and Wang

https://www.hhipc.org/2019-competitors/


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

and get this, what if Huang and Wang win the 2020 Piano Comp, 
Then we could have on the international concert circuit 
are you ready for this

Lang, Huang, Wang, Wang 
Or place in any order you choose, it could get a bit confusing 

https://www.hhipc.org/2019-competitors/

Yuja Wang is no doubt watching this comp very carefully, she is not at all cheering for
*** Zitong Wang***
to win, thats for sure


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

In 20 years from today, my guess is that 50% of all concert pianists will be of asian descent, although some will be born USA/canada/EU. As I say *descent* not necessarily country origin. 

Yuja Wang is quite well aware of this *stiff competition* ahead, Lang is in his own little world, he could care less. 
Wang knows she will just have to work harder,,and bring in the Beethoven 5, each one at the most perfect timing, Very smart girl is Yuja Wang. 
But , what say ye of the asians dominating the piano keyboard.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paulbest said:


> In 20 years from today, my guess is that 50% of all concert pianists will be of asian descent, although some will be born USA/canada/EU. As I say *descent* not necessarily country origin.
> 
> Yuja Wang is quite well aware of this *stiff competition* ahead, Lang is in his own little world, he could care less.
> Wang knows she will just have to work harder,,and bring in the Beethoven 5, each one at the most perfect timing, Very smart girl is Yuja Wang.
> But , what say ye of the asians dominating the piano keyboard.


You keep going on and on about Asians. It's not relevant, but it is starting to look like bias.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Competition? Where? Nevertheless, there's still room for many many other talented pianists.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yeah i am a bit out of bounds,. 
Lets see, i do wish to say, thankfully we have Mitsuko Uchida in Mozart's Piano concertos and sonatas. I find her Mozart to be my 1st choice. And if you read the amazon reviews, in this case all the 5 stars had it right. 
Though I wonder if Uchida would have done a better job at conducting from the piano. 
I did not at all care for Perriah and Ashkanazy conducting from the piano, i really do not like either of those recordings, You can sense the difficulty both are having trying to juggle 2 tasks same time. 
Uchida would have been successful, judging from her video with her at piano/conducting..
So how is this being biased. 
I just do not think either Lang, nor Wang offer near the same level of performance as Uchida. 
Other asian stars are on the way, and a few may trump both Lang and Wang. 
Competition is a good thing.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Competition? Where?


my guess is you actually like this,,work and performance,, am I right?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I heard Wang in a encore at the LA Phi Orch concert on FM radio, played the Prokofiev sonata selection, 
Hardly recognizing it as Prokofiev. 
Of course everyone else feels she is *the greatest*. so what do I know.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Her 1st video as a young girl is impressive, Seems like every single prodigy's 1st years are so so incredible and wonderful,,,then,,,like Lang Lang, much of this magical charm,,,seems to fizzle out as years roll on,, , and you all know exactly what i am talking about here.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I don't have any opinion on the talents of either Lang or Wang, or of their abilities to play what and how, or of their excesses or shortcomings or differences from early age to later age … or of anything really about the two. Yet, I suspect I would much rather watch … er, _attend_ a Wang concert than a Lang. Go figure!


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I have Wang's piano Ravel and Faure on CD, pretty good!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Her 1st video as a young girl is impressive, Seems like every single prodigy's 1st years are so so incredible and wonderful,,,then,,,like Lang Lang, much of this magical charm,,,seems to fizzle out as years roll on,, , and you all know exactly what i am talking about here.


Hmm, not all of us.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

SONNET CLV said:


> . Yet, I suspect I would much rather watch … er, _attend_ a Wang concert than a Lang. Go figure!


She sure is a fancy dresser, real stylish 
I'm with you on that one.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I consider Yuja Wang a real piano virtuoso, even if the occasional newspaper may refer to her local performance as a "****walk." Well, that's Philadelphia for you.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well i just now visited her rachmaninov PC3, The new conductor Dudamel, who does an OK job, the Los Angeles is good,,wait let me ck,,be right back,,,,well fair job from the los Angeles,,anyway back to the star of the show. This concerto really requires substantive handle of this large number of notes. The concerto allows no rest for the weary and so can easily overwhelm any who approach , that are unprepared. 
I think this is what happened to Yuja here, she got carried away thinking she has mastered the concerto. 
So avg, sub avg from Dudamel, and The Los Angeles and Yuja. 
Did we built up this great art, only to come to modern times with half prepared, half capable artists from all 3 involved parties?
No , we expect higher, highest standards to be achieved, not demurred.

No doubt if you go to amazon and also YT comments, 99% will be of the highest accolades and praises. 
so what do i know
I skipped this this,,no way could i bear 40 minutes of THIS


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

KenOC said:


> I consider Yuja Wang a real piano virtuoso, even if the occasional newspaper may refer to her local performance as a "****walk." Well, that's Philadelphia for you.


well she does perform in major cities = $$$$ biggest profits,,so I would not have access to these news critics. 
But she should expect , at least depends on what she decided to wear for that particular show, ,,,does she not expect to have some one along the way to mention her style of dress. 
I mean how many concert pianists do you know that wear styles like dress for a party? 
Yes I completely understand this is *her*, her style, her mannerisms. She is being who she really is, a smart dresser. 
I have no issues at all with her style, neither should anyone else. Its not distracting, she dresses tastful, as I know she is being true to her inner self. ...although there one was photo where she is in the ladies room, in front of a mirror, addressing her makeup,,,leaning over the counter a bit,,, with a white laced tight weaved cloth style dress, really nice,,and,,,i mean ,,well you'll have to google it....


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Gotta admit that's a pretty dull performance....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Yuja Wang's performance of Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto with Paavo Jarvi is _not _dull!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Well its been some decades since i last heard rachmaninov's 3rd piano concerto 
It was the earl Wild (who is he??) /Horenstein (who is he) and the Royal Phil on Quintessence LP, 1-4 + Paginini.
So i have a v reference point to make some sense of Yuja's project. 
Seems David Hurwitz has given 10/10 for the Wild/Horenstein 1965 set, which may have some validity,,i don't know,. 
even w/o the Wild/Horenstein locked deep in the recesses of my mind,,i can , you can, anyone can tell Yuja gets a bit in difficulty at times, the LA seems to rewrite the score, Dudamel is not perceptive enough to grasp what Rachmaninov intends how the orch should go. 

I've hard several others over the years, and reinforces this fair critique. 
I see Ken posted Yuja's Prokofiev 2nd,,,lets see whats with that effort......


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuja's playing is very mercurial and virtuosic. It's hard to imagine anyone being that stunningly coordinated, but I've noticed that I seldom feel much of anything from her playing. I don't feel touched emotionally or satisfied on a deeper level in what sounds like an emotionally detached Rachmaninoff 3rd. Much of what she plays seems geared more for thrills and excitement, so consequently, I prefer someone like Anna Federova or Sarah Ott, both of whom sound more idiomatic of the composers they play and there's more time to react emotionally to the music rather than it sounding more on the surface. Perhaps when she gets older and whatever she plays doesn't sound as easy for her, or she has her heart broken in love, or something else happens to give her pause about what she's really feeling, then maybe she'll be more rich, rounded and satisfying, at least for me. Her Scriabin is well performed but it does not sound idiomatic of the composer like Horowitz and a number of other pianists. Most performances, no matter how technically challenging, just sound too easy for her. Nevertheless, I consider her a fantastic pianist with unlimited potential that could blossom at any time. I couldn't finish her Rach 3rd either and I can easily imagine that Rachmaninoff himself might not have cared for it. There's so much more humanity in it that she seems unable to touch upon. But good luck to her. There are a couple of technical errors in Federova's performance, but I don't mind because overall I hear more musicality, depth and soul:


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Portamento said:


> As far as I'm concerned, every piano concerto is difficult.


All concertos are difficult, and the Brahms is extra difficult. Especially the 2nd. Not sure what Paulbest means when he says it is "nice and easy".

Now as for Lang and Wang...Wang feels her music significantly better than Lang, who is more individualistic. Wang is fine with colder, more showy pieces such as Cziffra transcriptions and the like. I thought her Prokofiev 2/3 was fun. Just don't give her Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Mozart, etc., she doesn't have a good track record with these.

I can't stand Lang Lang's Mozart. He plays like he is selling out to the fans who want a more "exciting" performance, you know, the people who think "all classical music is boring". In that he has succeeded- he has turned an entire nation (China) back towards Classical music out of a regime that had previously denigrated as too bourgeois (Mao tried to get rid of pianos for a period of time). So for that, I suppose I could appreciate him. Not sure if I can appreciate his playing though, other than certain showpieces that simply require fire and technique (he has plenty of both).


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Well did you , yes you do expect me to fall into a trap,,ha, i fooled you, 
Why would i be dishonest in all this critque of Yuja, I heard bits of the Profiev 2nd in some short videos of a day in her life on YT, yesterday, 
Bits only, So now with your posting, perhaps I may have overlooked it,. Look we could talk days about this performance. 
days.
So most of what i say now will be very brief. 
Where to begin
1) I judge romantic PC's completely different than I do modern concertos (Prokofiev is modern). 
2) I do not critque harshly any Prokofiev performance, open to nearly all performances, due to the great difficulty of the score. 
3) Yuja is rather young here, considerations are understood
***The camera filming at 9 minutes and so on,,,whats up with that,,,where the filming has Yuja seeming possess or something,,,the producer has altered the film to show a jettery/jerking, mechanical motion as Yuja plays and also the orchhestra can be seen in this same jerky movements. 
Really weird, really german.
Its like Yuja and the orch are possessed or something weird has overcome them. 
You might not notice and if you do it may not disturb your observing,, it does mine, i love to watch the performance as it is naturally manifested. 
Just weird, so german, so ultra-tech-mod. . 
anyway, there are few rough places at 3:04 , 6:12, 7:02 and I stopped the vid at 12 minutes.to write these notes. 
Cpnsidering my other recordings, the orchestra does a fair performance , Pavvo Jarvi performs his task. 
(honestly though,,you want my real observations,,? ,,well i ain't giving..) 
Considering the challenges and difficulties this entire work presents to the soloist, the conductor, the orchestra, I think we have a successful performance of a phenomenal masterpiece. . 
So far....Onto the final sections. .....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

chu42 said:


> All concertos are difficult, and the Brahms is extra difficult. Especially the 2nd. Not sure what Paulbest means when he says it is "nice and easy".


Both Brahms is a cake walk, kids stuff next to Prokofiev's 2-5 PC's. 
Which is why I extra duty tough in my crique of any/all recordings in the Brahms, If a solist/conductor/orchestra can't not present a 9/10 stars recording of both Brahms, all 3 need to get off the stage and stay off until all 3 can pass a 9/10 star performance. 
I am serious about this. 
9/10, not even a 8/10,,any 8/10 i hear in either Brahms, i'll bash til the cd is splintered in microns.
Provided the artists are presented as stars. 
Lesser artists i take in consideration, and grant generous allowances for either Brahms. 
Beethoven as well, nothing less than a 9/10, Those 5 are quite simple, straight forward, , cake walk, Kids play. 
On the Beethoven 5, i hold the harshest criticism of anything 8/10 or less. 
For Prokofiev;s 5, i am extremely forgiving,,and as i say, hardly make a negative comment , unless touted as *great, seasoned artists*. Critiquing , many factors need to be included in the judgements. 
1st off, one must know how the work is suppose to go off. 
w/o that, the judging will be biased, unfair and so rendered worthless.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Yuja's playing is very mercurial and virtuosic. It's hard to imagine anyone being that stunningly coordinated, but I've noticed that I seldom feel much of anything from her playing. I don't feel touched emotionally or satisfied on a deeper level in what sounds like an emotionally detached Rachmaninoff 3rd. Much of what she plays seems geared more for thrills and excitement, so consequently, I prefer someone like Anna Federova or Sarah Ott, both of whom sound more idiomatic of the composers they play and there's more time to react emotionally to the music rather than it sounding more on the surface. Perhaps when she gets older and whatever she plays doesn't sound as easy for her, or she has her heart broken in love, or something else happens to give her pause about what she's really feeling, then maybe she'll be more rich, rounded and satisfying, at least for me. Her Scriabin is well performed but it does not sound idiomatic of the composer to me like Horowitz. Most performances, no matter how technically challenging, just sound too easy for her. Nevertheless, I consider her a fantastic pianist with unlimited potential that could blossom at any time. Disappointedly, I couldn't finish her Rach 3rd either and I can easily imagine that Rachmaninoff himself would not have cared for it. There's so much more humanity in it that she seems unable to .


Well finally we agree on something, 
I really should revisit the Earl Wild performances/1965,,,,Just to ck what I thought was '*great Rachmaninov* Some of my very 1st Lps. 
, going there now,,,,Hurwitz gives the Wild set a 10/10,,but then he is usually a generous guy.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Yuja Wang's performance of Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto with Paavo Jarvi is _not _dull!


Stunning performance! Jarvi and the orchestra as well. I've rarely seen her as relaxed and yet as brilliant. Have never heard her sound as breathtakingly perfect, virtuosic and musical at the same time. Thrilling beyond belief. I'm simply floored. Thanks to Ken for posting this. I found it jaw-dropping. I still can't believe what I just heard. Stunning beyond belief and bravo to the colorful and brilliant Prokofiev. What a Concerto.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Lang Lang's brilliant performance of the Prokofiev 7th Piano Sonata. He plays with tremendous personality, mastery and virtuosity. One can hear a pin drop in the audience. It's important to understand the difference between hype and genuine ability. I've considered him the real thing since he first came on the scene and I'm not bothered by his lively facial expressions. He is neither false nor fake in this breathtaking performance. He commands the entire concert hall and this is one more example of the fantastic pianism that exists in today's modern world. The field is sky high and the public is fortunate to have it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Although I'm not a great fan of Lang Lang's playing and would not say he is a great pianist, he is a highly charismatic figure who has promoted the cause of classical music and has encouraged thousands if not millions to play the piano in the course of a highly successful career. That to me is something we should be grateful for .
Yuja is a brilliant pianist Who has an awful lot of fans both for her playing and for her looks and for the length of of her skirts or lack of them . I have three of her discs and they are brilliantly played and would stand up to any competition. Her playing speaks for itself to all but the tin eared.
I think Mr Best's comments are those of someone who is destined to put people off classical music . He should really keep his uninformed sour grapes to himself. A dislike of success in others is a sign of failure within ourselves. Sad really when we have to criticise others in order to try and boost our own ego


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Dimace said:


> Thanks a lot! You are 100% to the point. Chinese pianists aren't my favourites. The Chinese circus is super... :tiphat:


Lang Lang recorded K 491, it's one of the more audacious performances I've heard, I'm not saying you'll enjoy it, especially if you come with a preexisting idea of how the music should go. I just say that it has proved to be for me challenging and rewarding to get to know.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

paulbest said:


> Or please* add in any other pianists who you feel are commercialized, *milking the cow*, over rated*.
> Not like the old masters use to play Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Brahms, Beethoven,,thats for sure.
> New artist does not equate to superior performances,
> New is not always better you know.


Why do you feel you must continually encourage people in negative posts? You seem almost obsessed.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

paulbest said:


> well i just now visited her rachmaninov PC3, The new conductor Dudamel, who does an OK job, the Los Angeles is good,,wait let me ck,,be right back,,,,well fair job from the los Angeles,,anyway back to the star of the show. This concerto really requires substantive handle of this large number of notes. The concerto allows no rest for the weary and so can easily overwhelm any who approach , that are unprepared.
> I think this is what happened to Yuja here, she got carried away thinking she has mastered the concerto.
> So avg, sub avg from Dudamel, and The Los Angeles and Yuja.
> Did we built up this great art, only to come to modern times with half prepared, half capable artists from all 3 involved parties?
> ...


Yes I have it now. You are the sort of person no-one takes notice of so you feel in TC that you can have an audience and by making these sort of comments which you think get you noticed. Sorry but it gets you noticed in the wrong way. In fact, mate, saying this performance is 'unprepared' without giving any reason whatever for the statement you show you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

" Both Brahms is a cake walk, kids stuff next to Prokofiev's 2-5 PC's. "

Fur fox ache.....


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'll just say Wang > Lang.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

It doesn't matter to me origin of the musician.

but very few Asians have really made it to the top - all our greats lists are western performers more or less.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I thought Zimerman was Polish, but hey-ho.....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I agree, 
As I mentioned Uchida has ousted all the great EU/Russian pianist,,well not russians, but EU pianist in the Mozart. Brendel , Ashkenazy (EU/rinfluences), Periah, Etc Etc, Uchida is the only mozart i need and accept. 
Yet can we say Lang and wang are great pianists in the line of many past legends?
Though i will be honest, many past greats were not so great afterall the DUST HAS SETTLED. With hindsight i see quitea few past legends were no more than that, a mere legend, little excellence.
Now with superior hearing skills, Lang and wangs' recordings today and in the future will all , only muster mediocrity 
A level of quality i always shunned and am not about to start now, at this late in my critque career to allow for any 
mediocracy
Not on my watch. No sir.
Lang and Wang, above *average* = not really interested. 
= No cigar. and more Lang's and Wang's on the horizon. 
I have my collection complete, and i am not interested in romantic concertos, so to me, its neither here nor there, i don
't attend concerts. 
CM has become , like all things post mod, commercialIZED. 
too-shayyyyy:devil:


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> I thought Zimerman was Polish, but hey-ho.....


Zimerman , IMHO, if we exempt his Ravel and Debussy solo works, which are good, nothing great. , is one of the last truly great pianists. 
*Why, may i ask?*
sure you may. For his Ravel concerto.
Which no one, especially a asian will ever challenge. 
Plus I believe others acclaim his Beethoven concertos. I've seen parts of the 5th, snippets, he is perhaps the finest. 
There the Beethoven 5th and the greatest ever Ravel concerto. 
He is european. Poland is EU.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

paulbest said:


> Zimerman , IMHO, if we exempt his Ravel and Debussy solo works, which are good, nothing great. , is one of the last truly great pianists.
> *Why, may i ask?*
> sure you may. For his Ravel concerto.
> Which no one, especially a asian will ever challenge.
> ...


I would have thought western audiences would prefer to listen to western performers - so Lang and Wang seem to have done well.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

stomanek said:


> I would have thought western audiences would prefer to listen to western performers - so Lang and Wang seem to have done well.


western audiences are looking for a nite out at the concert. who ever, what ever is playing is just fine with them. as long as they don;'t have to sit home and get bored looking at the stupid TV. 
Now onto Zimerman, His Bartok 1st/Boulez/Chicago, is OK, = *not too great*, I recant my *Zimerman,,,greatest,,blah blah blah*. 
Yet his ravel stands as a towering achievement , no asian will ever come close.

WOW just think, from nearly 100 % american/EU pianists 20, 30, 50 yrs ago,,to now, in 20, 30 years, 75% + asians in the piano chair. 
As I say to me its neither here nor there, because all they play are the romantics, a style i am not the least interested in. 
OK, they do like to perform Prokofiev,,,soso Prokofiev. = Not interested. No asian will approach Ashkenazy and Brofman. There are 2 other russian sets if 2 is not enough for you. 
Sure Wang gets most of Prokofiev right,,,but who is looking for highlights, I want 1st to last note consistent. 
I did not say perfection, just consistency. 
I rate her Prokofiev 8/10, being generous there on a extra star.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Zimerman , IMHO, if we exempt his Ravel and Debussy solo works, which are good, nothing great. , is one of the last truly great pianists.
> *Why, may i ask?*
> sure you may. For his Ravel concerto.
> Which no one, especially a asian will ever challenge.
> ...


Do I really need to explain what the EU is, or indeed how awful it is to refer to a Pole as German? Or indeed the difference between the EU and Europe? Choosing ones words carefully is a useful skill to possess, I hope one day you learn how to.....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

so when Wang makesa Beethoven piano concerto recording, new concert shows, greater popularity, as Beethoven will push her fame to ever new heights, Wang does Beethoven. Huge Neon lights by her manager, her recording studio,, her promoters. Beethoven sells, And wang knows it,
Folks will be very willing to pay the $125 fora seat,,up from her current $100 a seat,,
Why the extra $25, you ask,. Because Beethoven sells, , Beethoven gets top $, and Wang knows it. 
She will sell out , world wide. 
Beethoven always sells out
Concert could be right next door to my house, free, entrance, , not interested, Even if she played the Prokofiev PC, free ticket, sorry not interested.
Its all a game, its modern times, its consumerism, its all about business. 
$100 for a concert,,,+ parking,,,for a concert that has 2nd rate performers, conductor/artist/orchestra. 

CM is dying at a alarming rate. And you well know it. Just admit it. 
Wang will make Beethoven piano concerto recording #231 in the catalogue. Did we really need yet another Beethoven concerto record?
I mean really?
But Wang knows the deal, New cd, new concert world wide schedules = money in the bank. 

btw
She prefers pop/rock/jazz music listening , pre/after the show. 
She is a jazzy lady.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> Do I really need to explain what the EU is, or indeed how awful it is to refer to a Pole as German? Or indeed the difference between the EU and Europe? Choosing ones words carefully is a useful skill to possess, I hope one day you learn how to.....


Ok so I thought with ZIMERMAN he was german, still you have not presented any case defense that CM pianist seats are being filled more and more with asians as each day unfolds,,and they do a OK job(a blah blah performance) in YOUR (not mine, as i am not at all interested in the romantics) great concertos, and that CM is dying. Lets get back to major issues and let go of these quibbles as to where a pianist is from.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

What should have given him away as Polish, is Krystian, But it was the Zimerman which made me think, thats german. Anyway, Zimerman is OK in some works, so so at others and superior in a few. 
I would like to see Wang and Lang make a bartok 1st, 2nd concerto, especially the great 2nd, my favorite, . 
The 3rd I never cared for and never listen to it. 
I just can not imagine either hammering either Bartok out with any degree of success. 
Its way out their reach. 
Yet both are very successful and making $$$$$ in this game. Stinks. Modern man has gone kooky. 
He has too much cash in the bank and too bored with his TV set.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Ok so I thought with ZIMERMAN he was german, still you have not presented any case defense that CM pianist seats are being filled more and more with asians as each day unfolds,,and they do a OK job(a blah blah performance) in YOUR (not mine, as i am not at all interested in the romantics) great concertos, and that CM is dying. Lets get back to major issues and let go of these quibbles as to where a pianist is from.


Honestly, I don't care whether a pianist is Asian, Polish, German or Eskimo, for the love of God. Those Concertos are not mine, they are Mankind's.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Lets get back to major issues and *let go of these quibbles as to where a pianist is from*.


Exactly, so why don't you quit with all your constant blather about all the asian musicians.


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## insomniclassicac (Jan 15, 2018)

IMO, the racism and sexism on display in this thread is pretty disgusting. A good reminder of why I backed off posting here awhile back.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

No those are YOUR and all you romantic/classicists concertos, No are not for us , The Modernists. 
OK Ok, so Prokofiev just barely edges in as a modern concerto, less his 1st PC, which is romantic, but I love it quite a lot.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

racism, sexism, ha, flinging baseless accusations . 
I am being fair and honest in all this.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

paulbest said:


> racism, sexism, ha, flinging baseless accusations .
> I am being fair and honest in all this.


The fact that YOU consider it "fair and honest" does not mean that it isn't racist or sexist. We have certainly seen plenty of the latter in other threads.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Look the general mindless public pushed me to make some far reaching comments which may appear distasteful and a bit arrogant.
When the public grants Wang a 5 minute standing ovation, for what? Mediocre concertos?
Not on my watch. i like to put things in correct perspective. 
i am a record critic, this is what i do. 
I should be allowed some considerations, and immunity in how i express things.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There is no doubt in my mind that several posts from today in this thread are racist. Paul started it with some unpleasant assertions about Asians and others joined in, apparently unaware that there have long been several top classical musicians with an Asian background and that they have a strong following among audiences in Europe. Meanwhile, the sexism in this and similar threads seems to have become casual, almost routine.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

An ounce of fact checking prevents a pound of foolishness-

Lang Lang: Bartok Piano Concerto No. 2 with Boulez:






Yuja Wang: Bartok Piano Concerto No. 1 with Salonen:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> i like to put things in correct perspective.
> i am a record critic, this is what i do.
> I should be allowed some considerations, and immunity in how i express things.


So you are a record critic? Do you mean your posts here? Or are you claiming to actually be a professional or even a published critic? I don't believe you.

Also, if you were a critic that would not entitle you to "some considerations, and immunity". The opposite would be the case. Having a public position means being more responsible for what you say and more obliged to justify it or get off the stage.

As for what goes on in concert halls (and your undercover - presumably for fear of being recognised - witness role).... you may have a sense for what goes down in US halls (but I strongly doubt it) but you clearly know nothing about concert halls in the rest of the world.

Taking all together with your posting style I strongly suspect that you are Donald Trump in disguise.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

But should we tolerate his comments, OMG!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Goodness gracious , have i pompously set myself as a Don Trump wannabe. 
Oh no, 
Now i know my efforts in exposing the new fraud in classical piano concerts/recordings has backfired. 

Modern concertos,,lets begin with Schnittke, Henze and Schoenberg/Berg, also Carter.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Modern concertos,,lets begin with Schnittke, Henze and Schoenberg/Berg, also Carter.


 Oh. Now it's Schnittke, Henze and Schoenberg/Berg instead of Bartok. That's called changing the goal posts. You might consider there are even non-Asians who prefer not to play their works - including Russians, Germans and Austrians.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Also has work by Webern and Berg.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Please by all means include Bartok's modern 2nd,,, my fav of the 3, and also the great 1st Bartok, his 3rd does not consider in the list, as i don;'t like it and not dif to play, and if thats not enough,,its nothing really great. A insignificane work, not a masterpiece as are his 2nd and perhaps his 1st. 
I would like to see more Prokofiev from Lang and Wang, PC's 3,4,5 from Wang, and 2,3,4,5 from Lang, ,
It could be via bartok and/or Prokofiev that would make me a believer in the proposition ~~asians can perform modern concertos~~
I give Wang high score for challenging the Prokofiev 2nd, but only can allow 8/10 on her perfomance.
Of course we should take in Paavo janvi's good (though someone here on TC has seen Jarvi live and has less appreciations than I) conducting and lousey Berlin Phil performance. 
In spite of these possible weakness for her support, the artist is on her own, and Wang just never musters a convincing performance in the difficult sections. 
Prokofiev really challenges the artist to the max. In certain places. 
As I say I for one, appreciate her efforts, I make allowances due to the difficulty of the concerto, NO allowances in the Beethoven concertos. None , zero. All 5 are relatively straight forward and if i say, for a accomplished concert pianist, easy and simple to perform. No concessions given, , either perfection of 2 thumbs down. Nothing in between.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Also has work by Webern and Berg.


Yes i did say, or was about to add in, Uchida's cd with Boulez is quite good, if not excellent. 
Its been some time, But as i recall I was very pleased with her Schoenberg,,of course she has superior backup in conducting, which is Schoenberg is essential for success.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Just back from a few notes of the Schoenberg, As I recall, i have some reserve to hold a high opinion. 
So my *quite good, if not excellent*,,can I rephrase this, to its *good*.
I don't want to look like a stick in the mud all the time on this topic. 
That cd, might add additional support to my hypothesis. , My imaginations


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yep , just cked, 
I lefta comment about Uchida and pollini's Schnoenberg over on Peter Hill's Naxos release of piano solo 2nd viennese, There i said in Feb 2006, Both Uchida/Pollini are good, but I MUCH MORE prefer Peter Hill. 
I hold to that now 14 year old opinion.

Peter Hill states in the notes, *I believe i have something to say in 2nd Viennese piano*, and he was correct, he has a definitive (if this word can be used in 2nd viennese idiom) voice in the 3 great composers.

https://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-B...hoenberg+hill&qid=1566753671&s=gateway&sr=8-1


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

All of this silliness about ‘the Asians this’ and ‘the Asians that’. The people of mainland China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and Japan would be surprised to find that they inherently have certain classical music limitations. The truth is that classical music is receiving a much needed lift from the surging interest in CM in these countries and the wonderful artists that are coming from these countries.

When it comes to the alleged limitations of Asian artists playing modern works, if I were to present anonymous sample recordings of some modern works, I would bet that the person in question could not pick out an Asian artist from the others.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Another excellent Bartok performance with Lang Lang and Simon Rattle:






There's nothing wrong with the Bartok 3rd. It's as Bartok as his other concertos if played with great vitality and enthusiasm, even if it is lighter and less abstract than his usual style because it was a surprise birthday gift to his wife. But he had a good reason for the change if one looks into it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._3_(Bartók)


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Most likely not, 
Uchida's from Peter Hill, maybe after a few minutes,,maybe after a few bars,,,, I think the latter would be sufficient. 
Thing is asians do not record, perform modern concertos, a few solo modern pieces, like Boulez (which i don;'t like/care for) can be found among asian contestants in piano comps. 
I would say, piano comps, all contestants, play romantic, to get the win. 
But i am refering to recording stars, Lang, Wang, Uchida, 
They seem resistant to record modern. For good reason, 
Uchida, like her 2 followers , all stay within the romantics. For good reasons.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paulbest said:


> Just back from a few notes of the Schoenberg, As I recall, i have some reserve to hold a high opinion.
> So my *quite good, if not excellent*,,can I rephrase this, to its *good*.
> I don't want to look like a stick in the mud all the time on this topic.
> That cd, might add additional support to my hypothesis. , My imaginations


Not everything is about you.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

philoctetes said:


> But should we tolerate his comments, OMG!


Well, there's always "Ignore"...but now other people have taken to quoting him in their posts. I wish they'd stop that.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

No, i simply refuse to hear Lang in Bartok, why subject me to further punishment?
What have i done to deserve Lang's Bartok? 
Besides it s bartok's 3rd, a work i have dismissed decades ago. 
For me its a delete from his catalogue. 
Now if it was Bartok's 2nd, i would be RUTHLESS in my criticisms.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Well, there's always "Ignore"...but now other people have taken to quoting him in their posts. I wish they'd stop that.


Yes, you are right. Although I'm not going to push the ignore button, I pledge to ignore all his postings.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

yeah thats right ignore reality, run off and pretend all is just full of glorious wonders in CM land, of lalala.
Burden of proof is on you guys, 

Go right ahead and continue in your denials of what taking place in the CM Industry RACKET, mafia, scam, propaganda. 
You guys are playing false to truth. 
Not me, i always present my comments/reviews fair and square, 
You guys double deal the cards, and lie for the home team.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> No, i simply refuse to hear Lang in Bartok, why subject me to further punishment?
> What have i done to deserve Lang's Bartok?
> Besides it s bartok's 3rd, a work i have dismissed decades ago.
> For me its a delete from his catalogue.
> Now if it was Bartok's 2nd, i would be RUTHLESS in my criticisms.


 The Bartok was not directed at you. I published it for those who might never have heard a great performance of the 3rd. Sorry, but it looks like you are being ruthless in your foolishness and I hear the pitter-patter of little Moderator feet gaining on you as a chaotic, disruptive influence.
:tiphat::wave:


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Lang next to Ashkenazy and Brofman? Lets get real, Lang has been promoted, be for real, I call it propaganda=ized, like wang is propagandized. 
Why fools ourselves here, besides not only is Bartok's 3nda bonified dud, its easy to perform, Which is why Lang picked the 3rd and not the 1st, 2nd.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

paulbest said:


> yeah thats right ignore reality, run off and pretend all is just full of glorious wonders in CM land, of lalala.
> Burden of proof is on you guys,
> 
> Go right ahead and continue in your denials of what taking place in the CM Industry RACKET, mafia, scam, propaganda.
> ...


That is just plain nasty. You don't have a monopoly on truth. Actually I haven't seen much truth at all. Nor have you presented any case whatsoever, only a bunch of personal opinions.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Lang next to Ashkenazy and Brofman? Lets get real, Lang has been promoted, be for real, I call it propaganda=ized, like wang is propagandized.
> Why fools ourselves here, besides not only is Bartok's 3nda bonified dud, its easy to perform, Which is why Lang picked the 3rd and not the 1st, 2nd.












Lang Bartok piano concerto # 2 in 2013 you must have missed it.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Several posts have been removed or edited due to inappropriate content. Others have been edited or removed because they quoted those deleted/edited posts.

Unfortunately, the discussion has become rather more than simply a critique or certain musicians. Hopefully, the thread can focus simply on member's opinions of the particular musicians' abilities.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I love Lang Lang and think he's a very thematic player!


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Lang Bartok piano concerto # 2 in 2013 you must have missed it.


Is it any good? I thought Rattle was a very fine accompanist in the Bartók Concertos he did on EMI with Peter Donohoe.

Worryingly, I went through my multitude of Bartók Concertos in my collection, not a single Asian in there, and females only in the Third. Wassss wrong with me????


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

CnC Bartok said:


> Is it any good? I thought Rattle was a very fine accompanist in the Bartók Concertos he did on EMI with Peter Donohoe.
> 
> Worryingly, I went through my multitude of Bartók Concertos in my collection, not a single Asian in there, and females only in the Third. Wassss wrong with me????


Ordered it will report back after hearing it. Posted it because someone said Lang never did concerto # 2.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

paulbest said:


> Lang next to Ashkenazy and Brofman? Lets get real, Lang has been promoted, be for real, I call it propaganda=ized, like wang is propagandized.
> Why fools ourselves here, besides not only is Bartok's 3nda bonified dud, its easy to perform, Which is why Lang picked the 3rd and not the 1st, 2nd.


Funny, if you can read, Lang is performing the Bartok 2nd with Rattle. i would appreciated less implied racism btw.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Well, there's always "Ignore"...but now other people have taken to quoting him in their posts. I wish they'd stop that.


Yes, funny how outrage gives the offender more exposure...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

CnC Bartok said:


> Is it any good? I thought Rattle was a very fine accompanist in the Bartók Concertos he did on EMI with Peter Donohoe.
> 
> *Worryingly, I went through my multitude of Bartók Concertos in my collection, not a single Asian in there, and females only in the Third. Wassss wrong with me????*


Well, there aren't _that_ many dozens of recordings of Bartok's piano concertos.

I can't say I'm updated as regards all the new stuff. But names like for instance Ogawa and Paik also perform Bartok, I don't know of them recording it however. And no doubt there are many more Asian pianists performing him.

Regarding females, *Farnadi* did a fine recording of piano concertos nos. 2+3 with Scherchen.

Annie Fischer, Uchida, Monique Haas, Argerich, Nikolyeva, Grimaud and Bernatova also did the 3rd, as did Ditta Bartok (whose very late recording is rather lifeless, however).

The rather unknown Balognova did the 1st for Supraphon.

I'm pretty sure there are more.

Yudina, Timofeeva and Grinberg also recorded Bartok, albeit not concertos, in the old Melodiya days. 
Loriod played at least nos. 1+2, Licad plays at least no.1, Wang plays 1+2, etc.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I have five of those female Thirds, btw!

I will confess to some bias with these Bartók pieces, I do prefer Hungarians! But to suggest people of a single race (sic!) i.e. Asians, can't fathom it is worth calling out for ridicule..

Have you guys sold Greenland yet? :angel:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

There are other countries besides the USA that are very interested in Greenland. Could be a bidding war, and Denmark would make a fortune. My view is that Denmark should hold on to what they have.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> There are other countries besides the USA that are very interested in Greenland. Could be a bidding war, and Denmark would make a fortune. My view is that Denmark should hold on to what they have.


I think, as an autonomous part of the Kingdom of Denmark, the Greenlanders themselves should have the final say? Pretty insulting to even think it is for sale.

Mind you, perhaps someone else should make the decision other than the locals? They voted to leave the (then) EEC, back in 1982. Surely no country could be so thick, ill-informed and bigoted to ever consider acting in such a suicidal manner....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

CnC Bartok said:


> I think, as an autonomous part of the Kingdom of Denmark, the Greenlanders themselves should have the final say? Pretty insulting to even think it is for sale.


I don't see a problem. We just offer each family $250,000 tax-free, a complementary year's Amazon Prime membership, and free MAGA hats for all.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BTW John Adams has written a new piano concerto dedicated to Yuja Wang. It's titled, "Why must the devil have all the good tunes?" She premiered it earlier this month with the LA Phil, Dudamel conducting. It's on YouTube in its entirety.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> BTW John Adams has written a new piano concerto dedicated to Yuja Wang. It's titled, "Why must the devil have all the good tunes?" She premiered it earlier this month with the LA Phil, Dudamel conducting. It's on YouTube in its entirety.


Good title. It was enough to make me put on the Deutscher Concerto.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I like both. I can't see all the antics on my recordings.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Good title. It was enough to make me put on the Deutscher Concerto.


The first movement might be titled, "Variations on Peter Gunn." :lol:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I just listened to the Adams concerto and feel as though I had been beaten over the head by a Steinway for 29 minutes. Well ... it's not [quite] that bad and I can see what many like it, but it feels as though it is constantly 'in your face'. I now feel in the need of something a bit more relaxing ... like MacMillan's 2nd concerto


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Becca said:


> I just listened to the Adams concerto and feel as though I had been beaten over the head by a Steinway for 29 minutes...


I think Adams wanted to make sure the pianist earned her performance fee! :lol:


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Lang Lang recorded K 491, it's one of the more audacious performances I've heard, I'm not saying you'll enjoy it, especially if you come with a preexisting idea of how the music should go. I just say that it has proved to be for me challenging and rewarding to get to know.


Lang Lang worked with Harnoncourt and the Vienna Philharmonic in 2014. If it was good enough for Harnoncourt it's good enough for me: (not that I'm a fan of Mozart these days).


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

KenOC said:


> BTW John Adams has written a new piano concerto dedicated to Yuja Wang. It's titled, "Why must the devil have all the good tunes?" She premiered it earlier this month with the LA Phil, Dudamel conducting. It's on YouTube in its entirety.


5 minutes worth of ideas spread over 25 in my view.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> 5 minutes worth of ideas spread over 25 in my view.


Well, John Adams is 72. Could be his muse is fading a bit.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I just listened to it. Not Adams at his most inspired, and he has slowed down a bit in recent years (as is expected from a composer his age), but _Absolute Jest_ and _City Noir_ show that he still has things to say.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I don't see a problem. We just offer each family $250,000 tax-free, a complementary year's Amazon Prime membership, and free MAGA hats for all.


Yes, green MAGA hats: *M*ake *A*ll *G*reenlanders *A*merican


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2019)

Wang is here playing Prokofiev's Toccata as an encore last year. It is lacking the frenetic, demonic element we often associate with that work and has a rather bland sound world:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> BTW John Adams has written a new piano concerto dedicated to Yuja Wang. It's titled, "Why must the devil have all the good tunes?" She premiered it earlier this month with the LA Phil, Dudamel conducting. It's on YouTube in its entirety.


Looks like the devil kept the good tunes anyway!


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2019)

Compare Wang with this from Argerich - it's actually GOING SOMEWHERE dark and ominous:






But this is even better - and more surprising!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Christabel said:


> Compare Wang with this from Argerich - it's actually GOING SOMEWHERE dark and ominous:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think to compare anyone to Horowitz in this piece is a loser! Why on earth when we have brilliant young artists must there be a brigade who tries to knock them down? Come on, this silly nit-picking as to who is the best is downright foolish. Why not just enjoy them all? I do!

BTW during his lifetime there was a very vociferous anti-Horowitz hate brigade too. Probably comparable to the Lang Lang hate brigade of today. Oh and Eileen Joyce was hated too for the dresses she wore - cf Yuja. Those sour grapes people who hate success and must try to knock it down re around in every generation.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Christabel said:


> Compare Wang with this from Argerich - it's actually GOING SOMEWHERE dark and ominous:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither Argerich nor Horowitz turn it into music, for that you need Josef Lhevinne


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Neither Argerich nor Horowitz turn it into music, for that you need Josef Lhevinne


Interesting as we were talking about Prokofiev not Schumann! :lol:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Neither Argerich nor Horowitz turn it into music, for that you need Josef Lhevinne


 Yes, but the wonderful Lhevinne performance is the Schumann rather than Prokofiev Toccata.

Horowitz does seem to get a bit manic and carried away. I was always amazed by his explosive dynamics - I think it characterized his playing during his career - though I believe Wang and Argerich are way up there too with their explosive technical accuracy. I'm deeply impressed how anyone can do that:






I think all the Toccatas are the product of too much nerves, caffeine or cocaine.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I blame the start of the pianomania Toccatas on this guy!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Interesting as we were talking about Prokofiev not Schumann! :lol:





Larkenfield said:


> Yes, but the wonderful Lhevinne performance is the Schumann rather than Prokofiev Toccata.


Well gentlemen, let's not split hairs!


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## hsyfz (Feb 9, 2016)

Christabel said:


> Compare Wang with this from Argerich - it's actually GOING SOMEWHERE dark and ominous:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazing. Now we are judging "sound world" by comparing recordings made in completely different environment and circumstances. One is a live recording that is overly cleansed by the production company to rid of ambient noise and tweaked in favor of clarity over everything else; on top of that it is heard re-encoded on YouTube from a 128kbps or 96kbps source so the sound is irretrievably degraded. The other one is a studio recording made back when DG still gives a damn and was heard re-encoded on YouTube probably directly from the disc itself. Now you want to judge the "sound world" of the two performances? Get real.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

hsyfz said:


> Amazing. Now we are judging "sound world" by comparing recordings made in completely different environment and circumstances. One is a live recording that is overly cleansed by the production company to rid of ambient noise and tweaked in favor of clarity over everything else; on top of that it is heard re-encoded on YouTube from a 128kbps or 96kbps source so the sound is irretrievably degraded. The other one is a studio recording made back when DG still gives a damn and was heard re-encoded on YouTube probably directly from the disc itself. Now you want to judge the "sound world" of the two performances? Get real.


It's the technique that's being judged and not the sound quality of the upload, and the interpretations can still be easily heard.


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## hsyfz (Feb 9, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> It's the technique that's being judged and not the sound quality of the upload, and the interpretations can still be easily heard.


It's the technique that's being judged? Then why was he talking about the "bland sound world"?



Christabel said:


> It is lacking the frenetic, demonic element we often associate with that work and has a rather bland sound world:


Speaking of technique, how do you judge between a live performance that is an encore played after a difficult concerto (Prokofiev 3rd), and a studio recording that is recorded multiple times and potentially stitched up? Even so, contrary to his claim that Wang's performance is "lacking the frenetic, demonic element", to my ears Argerich's performance is clearly tamer in comparison.

And no, the interpretation cannot be easily heard, not when the dynamic range is severely compressed, and phrasing details, especially the articulations are grotesquely distorted by the harsh post processing.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The funny thing is that with the sexism and racism endemic to classical music audiences (e.g. this entire thread), Asian and women musicians probably need to be better than European or American and male counterparts to make an equivalent impact on the world stage.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The London Proms this year are featuring quite a number of "minority" (mostly black) soloists and conductors and a great many female conductors. Many (certainly more than half) of the concerts they have televised this year have had female conductors (including the opening night). Meanwhile, even the Argerich and Barenboim concert didn't get televised although Simon Rattle has been. I record them and haven't seen/heard many of them yet but get the impression of great quality music making and the concerts do certainly seem to be drawing good audiences.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> Yes, you are right. Although I'm not going to push the ignore button, I pledge to ignore all his postings.


One person's pledge is another's reflex.


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

hsyfz said:


> Speaking of technique, how do you judge between a live performance that is an encore played after a difficult concerto (Prokofiev 3rd), and a studio recording that is recorded multiple times and potentially stitched up? Even so, contrary to his claim that Wang's performance is "lacking the frenetic, demonic element", to my ears Argerich's performance is clearly tamer in comparison.


More or less my exact thoughts on comparing the Wang and Argerich. There's a neurotic, unsettled edge to the Wang that seems absent in the Argerich. Horowitz was always capable of making the piano sound as if it was on the verge of a neurotic meltdown, when in the mood.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

If you play, imitate Lang Lang's mannerisms and see if they help you.

I would rank this concerto below all the great concerti because of its mundane ideas and it's very repetitive. Where's the 'Mozart' and his soaring gifts? My fellow musicians think I'm crazy..

here's Brendel;






"Of the Mozart piano concertos, this one has the most complete scoring. (It is the only one scored for both oboes and clarinets.) It is also the only late Mozart piano concerto in which the soloist plays after the cadenza in the first movement, here adorning an orchestral argument based on the extremely chromatic opening theme of the work with arpeggios, all the way through to the quiet close. It is one of only two minor-key piano concertos (the other being No. 20 in D Minor), and one of only three concertos where the first movement is in 3/4 time (the others being No. 11 and No. 14). The whole performance lasts roughly 30 minutes. The concerto has long been considered one of Mozart's greatest works. Arthur Hutchings has described it as the most "concerted" of all the concertos (i.e. the most integrated). Girdlestone has also effectively claimed it as the greatest. Ludwig van Beethoven took particular inspiration for his own music from this concerto. Richard Strauss played his own cadenza for the concerto in 1885. The work has obvious musical antecedents in Joseph Haydn's Symphony No. 78, also in C minor and from which the Concerto's opening statement is drawn. Jonathan Stock has analysed in detail Mozart's use of woodwind timbre in the instrumentation of the concerto's slow movement. Chris Goertzen has mapped the structure of the slow movement. The concerto was first published in parts in 1800. The manuscript of the concerto resides at the Royal College of Music."


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> If you play, imitate Lang Lang's mannerisms and see if they help you.
> 
> I would rank this concerto below all the great concerti because of its mundane ideas and it's very repetitive. Where's the 'Mozart' and his soaring gifts? My fellow musicians think I'm crazy..
> 
> ...


The comparison of the two performances is difficult, if not unfair, given that the Lang Lang recording sounds as if it's mono or is very 'thin' stereo, while the Brendel recording is broad-stage stereo. Lang Lang's histrionics do distract especially with Mozart, but like the old Liberace days, the 'common folk' seem to like it.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> The comparison of the two performances is difficult, if not unfair, given that the Lang Lang recording sounds as if it's mono or is very 'thin' stereo, while the Brendel recording is broad-stage stereo. Lang Lang's histrionics do distract especially with Mozart, but like the old Liberace days, the 'common folk' seem to like it.


I don't think Lang Lang can play any other way. He was taught (from a very different tradition) to express with his whole body etc. etc.

As a young boy Mr. Brendel was probably admonished no no no mustn't do that..

Playing music is devilishly difficult. I don't tell my students anything about such superficialities.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Luchesi said:


> I don't think Lang Lang *can play any other way. H*e was taught (from a very different tradition) to express with his whole body etc. etc.
> 
> As a young boy Mr. Brendel was probably admonished no no no mustn't do that..
> 
> Playing music is devilishly difficult. I don't tell my students anything about such superficialities.


As Glenn Gould couldn't play without humming


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> One person's pledge is another's reflex.


I figured it would be easy to honor my pledge because the guy would be kicked out before long - and he's already gone.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> I don't think Lang Lang can play any other way. He was taught (from a very different tradition) to express with his whole body etc. etc.
> 
> As a young boy Mr. Brendel was probably admonished no no no mustn't do that..
> 
> Playing music is devilishly difficult. I don't tell my students anything about such superficialities.


I remember reading an interview where Brendel said that he felt his gestures while playing were part of the presentation. Obviously not of the flamboyant type as Lang Lang.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DavidA said:


> As Glenn Gould couldn't play without humming


Gould said, "I can't do without it. I would if I could. It's a terrible distraction. I don't like it, and I would resent any artist whose records I bought indulging himself that way. I don't see why anyone puts up with it…. I can only say I play very much less well if I don't indulge in a few vocal elaborations…. I think there's a wishful thinking aspect, too: That is the way I would like my phrases to be made, and I'm never quite able to do that at the keyboard."

Watch the mouths of many virtuosos, including Brendel and Grimaud. Little sound comes out, but they seem to be guided in their phrasing by an early habit that's become unconscious.

I wish I could do it. I've tried. At my level it would be good for memory instead of just hearing it in my head.

Try memorizing 10 digits by singing them. And then try again without singing them. I have to rely too much on a visual memory of a score, so, many run-throughs are required.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Came across this video. The only composer I like Lang Lang's playing in is Mozart's. Here he gets the orchestra to do more of his antics for him, and focuses more on the music. Was pleasantly surprised.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> Came across this video. The only composer I like Lang Lang's playing in is Mozart's. Here he gets the orchestra to do more of his antics for him, and focuses more on the music. Was pleasantly surprised.


What a fun performance! People just enjoying great Mozart. Raises the question again whether conductors are necessary to keep time. No one seemed to be paying much attention to Lang Lang's limited arm movements.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DaveM said:


> *What a fun performance! *People just enjoying great Mozart. Raises the question again whether conductors are necessary to keep time. No one seemed to be paying much attention to Lang Lang's limited arm movements.


Having fun! Tut! Tut! This is classical music! :lol:


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