# A rough day for classical music.



## MJTTOMB (Dec 16, 2007)

The AFP reports that the Philadelphia Orchestra is expected to be filing for bankruptcy in the coming days, in light of financial woes. The ensemble was first formed in 1900, making it 111 years old.

Read the full article here.

Any thoughts? As a community, what can we expect to happen next? Where do we go from here?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Filing for bankruptcy does not equal dissolution necessarily.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

That's awful!!!

That really makes me sad, since I want to be a musician. There's really a lack of jobs for musicians nowadays, and there's hardly a chance I will get one. I pray this Recession will get through to the other side and things will come back.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> That's awful!!!
> 
> That really makes me sad, since I want to be a musician. There's really a lack of jobs for musicians nowadays, and there's hardly a chance I will get one. I pray this Recession will get through to the other side and things will come back.


What's wrong with amateurism.

That's the funny thing about music. People pay musicians to do something they (usually) love doing and would continue doing in spite of financial reward.

Out with the old in with the new, I say. 111 years old is a bloody good run. Time to move on. New venues, new presentation, new sounds.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Argus said:


> That's the funny thing about music. People pay musicians to do something they (usually) love doing and would continue doing in spite of financial reward.
> 
> Out with the old in with the new, I say. 111 years old is a bloody good run. Time to move on. New venues, new presentation, new sounds.


True. Isn't it often the people who have most enjoyable jobs are paid low?

I just hope a new orchestra would let me in... :/


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I fear that the recession will be long-term, with more problems along the way, including energy shortages. Given that, many communities will probably focus on smaller groups in less formal environments.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Argus said:


> What's wrong with amateurism.
> 
> That's the funny thing about music. People pay musicians to do something they (usually) love doing and would continue doing in spite of financial reward.
> 
> Out with the old in with the new, I say. 111 years old is a bloody good run. Time to move on. New venues, new presentation, new sounds.


What a ridiculous, ignorant statement! I wonder how those 'amateur' musicians, working the full-time schedule of a professional orchestra (which they would have to do to match the concerts given by a professional orchestra), would pay their mortgages, buy their food, run their cars, purchase their concert gear and service their instruments by working for free? Would you give each one a money tree to plant in the garden? Or are you one of these people who think that an orchestra just turns-up one evening to play a concert and it just magically happens? What about rehearsals, travel to other concert venues, recordings and broadcasts?


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Delicious Manager said:


> What a ridiculous, ignorant statement! I wonder how those 'amateur' musicians, working the full-time schedule of a professional orchestra (which they would have to do to match the concerts given by a professional orchestra), would pay their mortgages, buy their food, run their cars, purchase their concert gear and service their instruments by working for free? Would you give each one a money tree to plant in the garden? Or are you one of these people who think that an orchestra just turns-up one evening to play a concert and it just magically happens? What about rehearsals, travel to other concert venues, recordings and broadcasts?


Why can't they work a day job, like most musicians in the world? If they don't have time to rehearse as a consequence, then they can perform collective improvisation or simpler pieces they already know. Many a fine piece of music has been made and played by men and women who weren't getting paid to produce it. Knees-ups down the pub or sing-songs at home with the family are pretty cheap. So maybe they can't afford a Strad or a Steinway, then get some wire, stick it on a plank and play the diddley bow.

Obviously, the amateurs won't be working the full-time schedule of an orchestra, but why do they need to. I'm much more likely to go watch a new band who perform new original pieces no matter what the quality of them, than listen to a big orchestra perform Beethoven's Eroica for the zillionth time. I'm not saying these orchestras should become a thing of the past, an artefact, but I see no reason they deserve to survive more than any other musical business venture.

If orchestras are turning over enough revenue to continue their present setup, then fine, bully for them. If they can't and go under, the musicians can just get non-musically related jobs to live off and continue their music as a hobby. Or better yet, if they are lucky, get a music gig in an area that actually pays well _and_ generates money. Play as a backing musician for Elbow or Coldplay or whatever. As long as _all_ the big orchestras don't dismantle (which is highly unlikely) then I don't care.

As an example, many gamelan ensembles in Indonesia consist of amateurs who perform agrarian jobs to pay for living costs and perform with the local ensemble every now and then (usually at a fairly high standard). Similarly, many of the early blues musicians were basically tied to the land as cottonpickers/desendants of slaves, yet produced wonderful music.

So I'm not anti-professionalism, it's just that it is neither a right or a necessity for a musician to be paid for their art. So what if someone can play the Hammerklavier blindfolded, if not enough people are willing to pay to see it, why do should they get paid for it.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

You know, I can't even be bothered thinking of a reply to this ludicrous post. Sounds like you'd be happy to see all orchestras disappear, regardless of status. My contribution is closed.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Delicious Manager said:


> You know, I can't even be bothered thinking of a reply to this ludicrous post. Sounds like you'd be happy to see all orchestras disappear, regardless of status. My contribution is closed.


If you read my post, you'll see I said I'd be fine seeing _most_ orchestras closed down. As long as there are few knocking about, what's the problem. It'll also lead to the few remaining ones earning lots more money and not requiring subsidies. Supply and demand in effect.

Also, calling a post ludicrous because you don't agree with it is pretty weaksauce, Broseph.

You're in the industry as a manager. Therefore, you make a decent wage under the current system. If that were to change you'd obviously not be happy. So you definitely have a better understanding of the situation these orchestras are in than me, but this is also a hinderance to your position. You like the way things are, I'm all for change. No need to dismiss things as ridiculous.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

This thing is not new. I know that the Bournemouth Sinfonietta hasn't existed for years in a formal capacity (after funding was pulled) but members of the parent Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra do band together on occassions to play chamber concerts. 

Hopefully there might be some creative solutions to this current (& looming?) financial crisis out there. What makes me angry is that it's the ordinary people that cop the flack of the rich CEOs and corporate types who made the mistakes that lead us into this mess in the first place (not to mention former USA governments - probably of the Republican persuasion? - who deregulated the banking industry to allow this kind of **** to happen).

However there have been positive things happening, even in this financial climate. Smaller groups like the Metropolitan Chamber Orchestra of Sydney and the Lurline Chamber Orchestra have formed since 2009. The MCO has had a modicum of success, their concerts have been well attended.

But it's true that orchestras nowadays can't just rely on government funding, they have to source a significant portion of their funding from private (corporate) sponsors. & if the corporations are having a lean time, then that will affect their ability to support the arts...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

My view is there is simply an oversupply of orchestras, largely based on local-patriotism founded by a limited bunch; you see almost every large city/capital city, state and territory, to say the least, having their own "world calibre" professional symphony orchestra. 

Fine if there is demand for it, but there simply isn't.

"Classical music" is not something that society, as a whole, value tremendously to justify the numbers (and hence the wastage of economic subsidies and reliance on donations) to keep the business afloat. Many of these orchestras should be amalgamated or disbanded. Our top capital city symphony orchestra in Australia is the Sydney Symphony Orchestra, arugably a small fish on the world stage, but compared with other Australian capital city symphony orchestras, such as the Canberra Symphony Orchestra, which is based in a city of only three hundred thousand people and all the subisidies it needs, just seem ludicruous. (Canberra is the capital city of Australia, although with a population of only three hundred thousand, whereas Sydney is population of several million situated about 250km apart).


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I always thought that it was the opposite: that there is a major lack of orchestras worldwide.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Ralfy said:


> I always thought that it was the opposite: that there is a major lack of orchestras worldwide.


Maybe that's because we are music lovers, and would love to see orchestras/groups performing live music, just like 1711, 1811 or even 1911. But 2011 ...


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

There's little doubt that the Philadelphia Orchestra is looking to emerge from a bankruptcy filing as a re-organized ensemble. Fundamentally, the Orchestra is seeking relief from some of their structural long-term debts. Rent to the Kimmel Center is one of them-- but by far the biggest one is the defined-benefit pension payment obligations as part of Union contracts.

Defined benefit pensions are increasingly becoming a thing of the past here. Ever increasing numbers of employees elsewhere are being advised to plan for their own retirement years by investing in deferred compensation programs. The problem, of course, is when people have made career decisions under the presumption that pension benefits as articulated at the time of hire become threatened in an _ex post facto_ manner.

Also complicating things is that the Orchestra is sitting on an estimated nine-figure endowment fund- and bankruptcy protection is viewed as one way to shield that endowment from operating expenses. As it is, there's some question as to the legal extent that the endowment _could_ be used to remediate current expenses. [Endowment gifts are frequently conditional in nature- i.e.: to be spent on specific items, per the terms of the donation.]

Predictably, Labor & Management are at loggerheads over the numbers. Labor claims that the obligations are less than the figure given by Management, by a factor of multiples. Also predictably, Labor opposes the bankruptcy filing- which is understandable given the fact that they're looking to safeguard defined-benefit pensions for as long as possible. Bankruptcy reorganization requires Court approval. I shouldn't doubt that the whole thing is going to the Courts.

As to the issue of whether there are or aren't too many orchestras- whether an obvious over-saturation point has been reached- the Philadelphia Metropolitan area is STILL the fifth most-populous Metropolitan area in the US. (1. New York 2. Los Angeles 3. Chicago 4. Dallas-Fort Worth.) Independent of the demographics of the market size, this is the orchestra that Leopold Stokowski brought across the river to the RCA site in Camden, NJ to make some of the earliest shellac acoustic recordings. It's the orchestra that served as the classical music 'gateway' for many via their involvement in the Disney film _Fantasia_. It's the ensemble that, under Eugene Ormandy, was described by New York Times critic Harold Schonberg as "the finest of virtuoso instruments" (or something like that).

Speaking purely subjectively, I always had the impression that the Orchestra never entirely regained their footing after the end of the Ormandy era- in spite of having an under-appreciated Indian Summer under putative 'care-taker' Music Director Wolfgang Sawallisch. The idea that they might be headed towards a prolonged stay in the second tier puts me off my feed a bit.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

There seems to be enough legal precedent for endowments being excluded from assets. I think orchestra management must believe that for the most part, large endowments from Philadelphia Old Money has had its day, and they must now protect what's at hand and try to obtain reasonable labor agreement in not so agreeable economic climate. Too, more corporate transparency aka New World shareholding sharks will continue to guard against arts support. The musicians will wait, and then buckle one way or the other.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Round 1 report -

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-21/news/29459433_1_orchestra-musicians-management-and-musicians-endowment


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Another opinon re PO's bankruptcy filing...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ivan-katz-/the-philadelphia-orchestr_b_854539.html

This article looks at another venue possibilty for the PO, and doesn't see much dollar relief...

http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-05/news/29513069_1_philadelphia-orchestra-association-verizon-hall-kimmel-center

This extensive article investigates other orchestras in serious trouble...

http://247wallst.com/2011/05/01/the-most-cash-strapped-classical-music-organizations/


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Two more updates via articles--opinion piece and operations report.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-08/news/29522867_1_philadelphia-orchestra-association-richard-b-worley-strategic-plan

http://preview.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-09/philadelphia-orchestra-escrows-ticket-money-in-case-performances-canceled.html


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Amidst the large waves, the orchestra plays on.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-09/news/29525485_1_kurt-masur-principal-spots-philadelphia-orchestra


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

It's not just in the good ol' USA. A 20-year look at the decline of Germany's orchestras, though there are some positives.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/classical-beat/post/orchestras_in_germany_snapshots_of_a_crisis/2011/05/11/AFNFUBrG_blog.html?wprss=classical-beat


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"Listen with Your Heart", or the Philadelphia Orchestra will be out of cash by June.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9NAOAQG1.htm

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/artswatch/122219249.html


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

This is, unfortunately, how it's going these days...we can only thank them for the past and all the great works they have provided us...the Rach concerti with him on the keys is first to come to mind but ah there are so many beyond that...Argus is being realistic though and we can only hope this will not become a growing trend.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Recent articles re PO office and stage.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-...rg-allison-b-vulgamore-philadelphia-orchestra

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...oves-its-worth/2011/05/22/AF1ejP9G_story.html


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

My whole family and I attended the Friday concert at the Kennedy Center in DC. The hall was packed, as they say, including lots of young people lured by $10 tickets on offer from the Washington Performing Arts Society. They got quite a treat, as this was a superb performance all around. I have never heard the Tchaikovsky 5th performed with such power and passion.

Among the families who attended that knew each other (from local youth orchestras and the like), we could not believe that an orchestra of this stature and excellence could be in such trouble. 

Our best wishes to the folks at the Philadelphia Orchestra--we hope your city realizes the treasure it has.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Considering the Tchaikovsky 5 recording success both Dutoit and the Philadelphia Orchestra have had, it's good to hear they were able to muster some of that up for the Washington concert.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Re PO bankruptcy...

http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-...a-association-orchestra-board-dilworth-paxson

Positive review...

http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20110530__Faust__finds_orchestra_in_top_form.html

Front office changes...

http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-...chairman-allison-b-vulgamore-richard-b-worley


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

With a nod to the PO, further looks at challenges orchestras face these days. To keep costs down, some are considering a combination of salaried and freelance players.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2011/06/02/2003504740/1


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"Retuning the Philadelphia Orchestra"

http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-12/news/29650165_1_philadelphia-orchestra-association-allison-b-vulgamore-strategic-plan


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

How terrible! I've just read in Rachmaninoff's Biography a few days ago that the composer thought the Philadelphia Orchestra was the greatest in the world.

I remember last summer seeing Nikolai Lugansky play Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto under Dutoit, it was amazing! I hope the orchestra pulls through. Not only is it a very good orchestra, but it is a historic one.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

A *good* day for classical music...

http://blogs.wsj.com/bankruptcy/2011/06/22/philadelphia-orchestra-nabs-donations/?mod=google_news_blog


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Personally, I don't think that the problem is lack of interest in classical music, but rather poor management of money and assets. When times are tough, it shows up those businesses that are not running as efficiently as they could be. This is especially true of the arts where creative vision and tradition often are valued more than accounting acumen. There are good and bad sides to that, of course, but my point is that the arts should be subject to the same free market economy as any other sector. It is sad to see an institution come to such an end, but times do move on. An orchestra is a business like any other. Brand names come and go.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

crmoorhead said:


> Personally, I don't think that the problem is lack of interest in classical music, but rather poor management of money and assets. When times are tough, it shows up those businesses that are not running as efficiently as they could be. This is especially true of the arts where creative vision and tradition often are valued more than accounting acumen. There are good and bad sides to that, of course, but my point is that the arts should be subject to the same free market economy as any other sector. It is sad to see an institution come to such an end, but times do move on. An orchestra is a business like any other. Brand names come and go.


Concertgoing is a victim of time, cost, and competition. People are stretched and stressed so many ways, that they don't usually see dressing up to fight traffic and parking and downtown thugs and bums, and sitting in costly uncomfortable seats as a great way to spend the evening. If it's a weeknight, it's almost never a consideration. If it's a weekend, they're chilling out until another week of work starts. Family outing, enjoying friends, sports, restaurants, cocooning, movie theaters, any number of things can be the not-so-friendly competition.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> Concertgoing is a victim of time, cost, and competition. People are stretched and stressed so many ways, that they don't usually see dressing up to fight traffic and parking and downtown thugs and bums, and sitting in costly uncomfortable seats as a great way to spend the evening. If it's a weeknight, it's almost never a consideration. If it's a weekend, they're chilling out until another week of work starts. Family outing, enjoying friends, sports, restaurants, cocooning, movie theaters, any number of things can be the not-so-friendly competition.


While all this is completely true, hasn't this been the case for decades? This is also more related to the appeal of other activities drawing people away from going to an orchestra performance. I am talking more about the ability to keep yourself above the competition within the same sector and to manage finances. Who are their main competitors, for example? Philidelphia and the surrounding area has a huge population. It would be interesting to know what has gone so drastically wrong that they are considering filing for bankruptcy. That kind of step only happens with gross mismanagement. Is there any way to have a look at their financial statements? I see in one story that they were expecting investment for one year of $250 million. Makes me wonder what on earth they spend that much money on....

Oh, and what is cocooning?

EDIT: It is possible to view their financial statements on their website under the press section. No idea what the investment figure in that other article was about. The main problem seems to be that they have lots of assets that they can't touch and they have very poor cash flow (obv). Some of the restricted money was freed up, but their concert and orchestra expenses were $32.5m whereas their takings were about $12.7m. It is costing them $20m more than they earn to put on concerts and run the orchestra. I have no idea how that compares to other orchestras. There was also $450k lost on something called Encore Series, Inc. Interesting that their admin costs were $9m and they had almost $800k of bad debts. No idea how normal that is, but it does seem a lot of admin when compared with their gross takings for the year.


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## PhillipPark (Jun 22, 2011)

It seems to me that the interest for classical music (or at least the performance of it) is really hurting. Something that best exemplifies this: seeing the Chinese National Orchestra put on a program of "Bolero" and Tchaikovsky's "Serenade for Strings" at Santa Barbara's premier venue (the Granada) on a Saturday night. I was amazed at how little the turn out was, as well as the audience consisting entirely of members in the ages of 60+. 

The event was not poorly advertised: announcements on both local classical stations were made a dozen times a day for a week prior, to say the least. 

I think the problem is that listeners are selling themselves short. They think that a live event holds no benefit to listening to the same music on their Ipod. As well as this: people seem to think that going to see a classical program on a weekend night, opposed to drinking at a bar or going to a social gathering at a house, is crazy. I ended up going to the aforementioned program solo because I couldn't find anyone willing to "sacrifice" a perfectly good Friday night! 

So in whole: I feel poor ticket sales are partly responsible for the demise of many orchestras.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Philadelphia Orchestra is back in the black.:tiphat:

http://www.philly.com/philly/entert...Orchestra_reports_on__a_remarkable_year_.html


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Memphis SO players take 38% pay cut.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/new...-financially-struggling-organization_60878974


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Florida Orchestra is hanging by a thread. Their days are numbered..... as are mine.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I think the problems is there is no more great new music today you see anyone can write a symphony but it may not sound great though.IT seem that they focus on hip hop/rap crap music today.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

crmoorhead said three years ago, "Makes me wonder what on earth they spend that much money on...."

Same things. The dollar doesn't go as far. That old adage gets truer with each passing year.

Philadelphia O.'s coming out of a bad spell, but their CEO makes $718,000 per annum. And their young music director, $1.5M. These, from what I read, are middle-of-the-pack salaries for major cities orchestras.

It's a constant fund-raising battle. The good news is there are more ol' farts than ever, and that will increase in the coming decades. If the orchestras can continue to hit on them, they'll survive. It's individual donors they'll hafta primarily target. The old days of corporate-giving are gone. Too many nosey lean 'n mean anti-arts stockholders now.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Its somewhat ironic how Western classical music in Asian countries is evidently going very well (esp. in China, but also in South Korea) whilst in the West its somehow just managing to survive. I think not all places are as bad as the USA, but I think its safe to say that the glory days of classical are over in the West (at least how it was in the decades immediately coming after WWII). 

Just a comment in passing (since this thread has been necroed).


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Its somewhat ironic how Western classical music in Asian countries is evidently going very well (esp. in China, but also in South Korea) whilst in the West its somehow just managing to survive. I think not all places are as bad as the USA, but I think its safe to say that the glory days of classical are over in the West (at least how it was in the decades immediately coming after WWII).
> 
> Just a comment in passing (since this thread has been necroed).


There is lack of love for classical music in the usa they focus on music like hip-hop/rap rock & so on.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> Philadelphia O.'s coming out of a bad spell, but their CEO makes $718,000 per annum. And their young music director, $1.5M. These, from what I read, are middle-of-the-pack salaries for major cities orchestras.


Wow. There goes any intention I ever had to donate to such things. Those dudes need to take a 38% pay cut.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Atlanta Symphony is locked out again. Even after they took pay cuts two years ago.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Maybe that's because we are music lovers, and would love to see orchestras/groups performing live music, just like 1711, 1811 or even 1911. But 2011 ...


I think there is a major lack of orchestras worldwide because most countries are poor.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Ralfy said:


> I think there is a major lack of orchestras worldwide because most countries are poor.


Since many orchestras were formed in the 20th century -- certainly in the United States -- there are, I would assume, substantially more orchestras in existence today than in, say, 1900. Or 1914 (to go back an even 100 years).

With the severity of the recession in the U.S. and globally, and the number of businesses that went belly up here as a result, it's rather astonishing that only a handful of orchestras in the U.S. were forced to shut down over the past few years, and no major orchestras, as far as I know, went out of business. Granted, some have been forced to reduce the number of permanent members, but they typically hire freelancers to fill things out when the performance requires a larger ensemble.

Globally the situation isn't entirely dire either. Perhaps a half dozen orchestras have emerged in China just since 2000, for instance.

Although it's lamentable that funding sources for orchestras have been strained recently in the U.S., I would not agree that its fair to describe the situation today as a "major lack of orchestras worldwide."

IMO, etc.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Honestly, I think that the decline of live orchestras is due to a lot of complex factors (and as a former guy who lived in Philadelphia, I opine that the Philadelphia Orchestra funding is tied heavily to the corruption from the Bernie Madoff scandal).

1) Glenn Gould predicted the eventual demise of live performances with the rise of better recording technologies. According to an article, "The future, Gould declares, is in the recording studio. For the reclusive perfectionist, the studio provides a womb-like atmosphere where he is free to splice and edit imperfections in his playing. 

He would record several versions of a piece and then weave the best passages together. Gould calls this process "creative editing" rather than cheating. He says it is necessary to achieve the highest quality of recording possible. 
Gould's controversial practices ruffle more than a few feathers. Zubin Mehta, the world famous conductor, sums up Gould's arguments saying that he is simply out of his mind."

In many ways I agree with Gould here. For me, as much as live performances of the Utah Symphony engage and excite me, the quality of current classical music recordings in ALAC (Redbook quality 44.1khz/16 bit) and downloaded tracks from HDtracks.com at 24 bit as just as comparable to live performance quality if one has a good stereo playback system. I think that with the ascent of the iPod and iPhone and mp3 players that personal listening to classical music is a strong factor. Nowadays it's easy to find classical music through iTunes and other downloadable services.

2) The economic challenges... I think that wealthy people don't listen to as much classical music as they used to. I wouldn't be surprised if donations and art funding has decreased as this has become a less emphasis in our American society. Considering that the gap between the rich and poor is increasing each year, the fact that it is harder to listen to live classical performances due to people's priorities on spending money elsewhere such as expensive Super Bowl tickets which are many more times expensive than a NY Philharmonic performance series.

3) Fashion in today's society is all about sex appeal in the music industry. As much as Horowitz was a complete genius, it isn't going to move as many units as the latest Taylor Swift album. Sadly enough, our young people have a very limited milieu honestly. Cultural literacy is at a low. If they can't even name the winner of the Hundred Years War, how do we expect 20-something year olds to drop Heifetz or Milstein at the drop of a hat?

4) The static nature of classical live performances. Sorry as much as I love Mozart and Beethoven, there is only so much as I can listen to again and again live. I need more diversity. Seriously. Give me more f------- Berg or Webern or even Boulez on the program. Which is why I love Thierry Fischer here at the Utah Symphony. He isn't scared to stick in some risky pieces like Schoenberg or the Adams piece occasionally. The stuffy, ultra-conservative programming of symphonic live series does not induce me to want to spend the money when I can head over to the public library and listen to the string quartets of Elliott Carter and explore new music venues. For me, this is the biggest reason for the decline of the orchestra.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

papsrus said:


> Since many orchestras were formed in the 20th century -- certainly in the United States -- there are, I would assume, substantially more orchestras in existence today than in, say, 1900. Or 1914 (to go back an even 100 years).
> 
> With the severity of the recession in the U.S. and globally, and the number of businesses that went belly up here as a result, it's rather astonishing that only a handful of orchestras in the U.S. were forced to shut down over the past few years, and no major orchestras, as far as I know, went out of business. Granted, some have been forced to reduce the number of permanent members, but they typically hire freelancers to fill things out when the performance requires a larger ensemble.
> 
> ...


FWIW, global population also increased significantly during the twentieth century.

The U.S. has around 1,200 orchestras for a population of 300 million. I don't know how many orchestras there are for China, but this wiki entry lists only around 14:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphony_orchestras

and that's for a population of around 1.3 billion people.

Most countries worldwide are poorer than China, and most people worldwide earn only a few dollars a day and can barely access basic needs.

Given these points, I think it's safe to say that there is a major lack of orchestras worldwide. And not just orchestras, but also museums, libraries, and other cultural institutions. That is certain because even basic needs such as health care are lacking.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Ralfy said:


> FWIW, global population also increased significantly during the twentieth century.
> 
> The U.S. has around 1,200 orchestras for a population of 300 million. I don't know how many orchestras there are for China, but this wiki entry lists only around 14:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't argue against the fact that there are large swaths of the global population who don't have enough food to eat, let alone access to an orchestra. We are in agreement there. But that's a different argument.

There are by your count 1,200 orchestras in the United States. Not all that long ago, there were zero.

New concert halls have been popping up all over the place with some regularity over the past few decades. What was once a music for the royal courts now deploys musicians in all variety of community outreach programs to engage everyone from school children to those dying in hospitals.

If a person lives in a reasonably sized city anywhere in the developed world, chances are they have access to an orchestra, either their own, or touring ensembles, or smaller chamber orchestras, etc.

The fact that orchestras have to engage their communities in all manner of creative outreach programs rather than sit back and rely on subscription series in order to survive/prosper might even argue that we have too many orchestras. (I would never make that claim, but if the choice is between food for the hungry vs. funding for an orchestra, well ....)


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I had the opportunity to hear the Philadelphia Orchestra on Easter (3/31/2013) at Verizon Hall in The Kimmel Center, performing the Bach _St. Matthew Passion _under the baton of Yannick Nézet-Séguin. It proved a magisterial and inspiring performance. Hopefully the orchestra will experience a resurrection that allows such music making to continue for many years to come.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

papsrus said:


> I wouldn't argue against the fact that there are large swaths of the global population who don't have enough food to eat, let alone access to an orchestra. We are in agreement there. But that's a different argument.
> 
> There are by your count 1,200 orchestras in the United States. Not all that long ago, there were zero.
> 
> ...


It's not a different argument because we are talking about orchestras worldwide, and if there is a lack of basic needs, then there is obviously a lack of wants.

The point isn't that the U.S. started with zero and ended with 1,2000 orchestras. It's that globally we do not see the same increase. In fact, we don't even see the same proportion. To recap, China has a population up to four times the size of the U.S., and yet it has only around 14 orchestras. And it added only six during the last 14 years.

Also, most countries are not as prosperous as China.

Given that, it is very obvious that there is a major lack of orchestras worldwide. And not just orchestras but museums, libraries, and so forth.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Given the world as we know it, isn't every day a rough day for classical music?


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Ralfy said:


> It's not a different argument because we are talking about orchestras worldwide, and if there is a lack of basic needs, then there is obviously a lack of wants.
> 
> The point isn't that the U.S. started with zero and ended with 1,2000 orchestras. It's that globally we do not see the same increase. In fact, we don't even see the same proportion. To recap, China has a population up to four times the size of the U.S., and yet it has only around 14 orchestras. And it added only six during the last 14 years.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I guess I'm just a glass 1/10th full guy.

I don't live in a third-world village, so I'm sure that colors my view a little. But still, China's doing OK, considering that their cautious embrace of Western culture is a relatively recent phenomenon. If you throw Hong Kong into the mix, now that place might have more orchestras per square foot of any place on earth. They're doing great.

But I take your point. You have my backing for more orchestras worldwide!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Ralfy said:


> The point isn't that the U.S. started with zero and ended with 1,2000 orchestras. It's that globally we do not see the same increase. In fact, we don't even see the same proportion. To recap, China has a population up to four times the size of the U.S., and yet it has only around 14 orchestras. And it added only six during the last 14 years.
> 
> .


Chinese Wikipedia lists 91 orchestras among these are 73 in mainland China and that list is probably not complete either.
And if someone wonders I don´t know Chinese but I know how to use translation functions.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Also, China's not actually very rich per capita. It's not like they have 600,000,000 people at a middle class standard of living. Let's hope that happens. There'll be more orchestras!


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

Sloe said:


> Chinese Wikipedia lists 91 orchestras among these are 73 in mainland China and that list is probably not complete either.
> And if someone wonders I don´t know Chinese but I know how to use translation functions.


Following the U.S., I'd probably be great if China had, say, at least three times the number, or around 3,600 orchestras. But there would still be a problem for most countries, as they are poorer than China.

I'd also look at the state of public libraries and any radio stations playing classical music, as well as music programs in public schools.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

I wonder why some orchestras are doing well and others not surviving at all. For example, AFAIK, the San Francisco Symphony is doing well financially and artistically (despite a recent musicians' strike). When I am there, the place is almost always at capacity, and other music presentation organizations in the area seem to be thriving, or at least holding their own. 

I think it's due to a surplus of old people here in SF. I say that because, being 63, I seem to be one of the younger people in attendance. 

- Bill


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