# Mozart - Last 6 symphonies



## Heck148

These are without doubt, amongst the great treasures of Western symphonic music...

#35 - "Haffner"
#36 - "Linz"
#38 "Prague"
#39 in Eb
#40 g minor
#41 "Jupiter"

These are all deservedly standards of the symphonic repertoire...#s 40, 41 perhaps get the most attention, and they are indeed wonderful works...
My own favorites are probably #38 "Prague" and #39. I've played them all, many times with different orchestras - always a great pleasure, and a great challenge to do well.

that said - I think the inside mvts of #41 are among the most sublime in all music - the Andante Cantabile and the Menuetto/Trio....there is a poignancy, almost wistful quality here....as always with Mozart - the flow of the melodic line is constant and fluid - it is almost achingly beautiful...romantic style of playing - Walter, Reiner, serves this music so well...

I also love the inside mvts of #39 - Andante con moto, Menuet/Trio - beautiful lyricism in the Andante - with almost haunting middle section with quasi-fugal entries in the woodwinds...wonderful clarinet solo in Trio of Minuet - happy,simple, lovely

#35 "Haffner" is notable for its really demanding string/orchestra parts - esp in mvt IV - tour de force for orchestra - this one shows up frequently on orchestra auditions [mvt I also] - with Mozart - it has to sound easy - effortless, elegant, graceful....of course, it's not easy, but you must make it sound so....:tiphat:


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## Bruckner Anton

I've heard from a expert conductor that normally a conductor or an orchestra needs to include about 10 Mozart symphonies in their standard repertoire.


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## tdc

Heck148 said:


> These are without doubt, amongst the great treasures of Western symphonic music...


Agreed. I actually like #25 even more than any of them though except #38.


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## silentio

The #38th is probably the most radical! In 3 movements, he sounds bolder throughout. 

My order:

1) 41
2) 38
3) 40
4) 39
5) 35
6) 36


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## Animal the Drummer

Heck148 said:


> These are without doubt, amongst the great treasures of Western symphonic music...
> 
> #35 - "Haffner"
> #36 - "Linz"
> #38 "Prague"
> #39 in Eb
> #40 g minor
> #41 "Jupiter"
> 
> These are all deservedly standards of the symphonic repertoire...#s 40, 41 perhaps get the most attention, and they are indeed wonderful works...
> My own favorites are probably #38 "Prague" and #39. I've played them all, many times with different orchestras - always a great pleasure, and a great challenge to do well.
> 
> that said - I think the inside mvts of #41 are among the most sublime in all music - the Andante Cantabile and the Menuetto/Trio....there is a poignancy, almost wistful quality here....as always with Mozart - the flow of the melodic line is constant and fluid - it is almost achingly beautiful...romantic style of playing - Walter, Reiner, serves this music so well...
> 
> I also love the inside mvts of #39 - Andante con moto, Menuet/Trio - beautiful lyricism in the Andante - with almost haunting middle section with quasi-fugal entries in the woodwinds...wonderful clarinet solo in Trio of Minuet - happy,simple, lovely
> 
> #35 "Haffner" is notable for its really demanding string/orchestra parts - esp in mvt IV - tour de force for orchestra - this one shows up frequently on orchestra auditions [mvt I also] - with Mozart - it has to sound easy - effortless, elegant, graceful....of course, it's not easy, but you must make it sound so....:tiphat:


You prefer the inside movements of the "Jupiter", wonderful though they certainly are, to its miraculous finale?


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## Pugg

My order of preference 40-41-39-38-36-35 .


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## jegreenwood

There are certain moments that I recall as essential in my discovery of classical music. One was listening to Szell's recording of the Haffner. That was when I knew I liked Mozart. So that is sentimental favorite. But speaking objectively my favorite is 40. If I had to pick a least favorite (speaking only relatively) it would be 39.

Slightly off-topic but triggered by a post above. I also recall my first listen to Symphony 25. The first movement sounded familiar. It took me several years to realize that Richard Lester had mashed it up with Stephen Sondheim's score as chase music in the climax of the film "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum."


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## Heck148

Animal the Drummer said:


> You prefer the inside movements of the "Jupiter", wonderful though they certainly are, to its miraculous finale?


The entire #41 "Jupiter is a great work - but for me, the inner mvts really connect. That said, the outside mvts are truly great, rewarding, and challenging to perform, esp IV..


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## poconoron

These are all sublime works, with my order of preference being:
40
39
41
38
36
35


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## mmsbls

I adore Mozart's symphonies and have always been a bit surprised when people state that symphonies were not really Mozart's area of excellence. (Of course, I'm a bit surprised when people say anything negative about Mozart.) I view the Nos. 40 and 41 as among my favorite symphonies with 38 and 39 just a bit behind. The finale movement of 41, first movement of 38, and second movement of 40 stand out as some of the most powerful music I've ever heard.


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## Heck148

mmsbls said:


> I adore Mozart's symphonies and have always been a bit surprised when people state that symphonies were not really Mozart's area of excellence.


I know what you mean...his symphonies, esp the last 6 are amongst the greatest works for orchestra...however, some feel, with considerable justification, that as excellent as the symphonies are, Mozart's greatest works are the operas - Don Giovanni. Marriage/Figaro, Magic Flute.....I don't necessarily agree, but a strong case can certainly be made - but, either way, it is a testament to WAM's greatness as a composer.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Heck148 said:


> I know what you mean...his symphonies, esp the last 6 are amongst the greatest works for orchestra...however, some feel, with considerable justification, that as excellent as the symphonies are, Mozart's greatest works are the operas - Don Giovanni. Marriage/Figaro, Magic Flute.....I don't necessarily agree, but a strong case can certainly be made - but, either way, it is a testament to WAM's greatness as a composer.


I disagree that his operas are his greatest works. They may be as good as his symphonies but I'm yet to see a convincing argument they are better. How would you make a strong case for it, I'm curious?


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## jegreenwood

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I disagree that his operas are his greatest works. They may be as good as his symphonies but I'm yet to see a convincing argument they are better. How would you make a strong case for it, I'm curious?


In "The Classical Style," Charles Rosen begins his section on Mozart as follows:

"Mozart's most signal triumphs took place where Haydn had failed: in the dramatic forms of the opera and the concerto, which pit the individual voice against the sonority of the mass."

His three chapters on Mozart are titled The Concerto, String Quintet and Comic Opera (although he discusses a number of the symphonies in passing).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

jegreenwood said:


> In "The Classical Style," Charles Rosen begins his section on Mozart as follows:
> 
> "Mozart's most signal triumphs took place where Haydn had failed: in the dramatic forms of the opera and the concerto, which pit the individual voice against the sonority of the mass."
> 
> His three chapters on Mozart are titled The Concerto, String Quintet and Comic Opera (although he discusses a number of the symphonies in passing).


I don't find anything in this excerpt even close to a convincing argument that Mozart's operas are better than his last symphonies. Or is Rosen's "Mozart's most signal triumphs" meant to be that?


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## mmsbls

I don't think it's so much a question of whether Mozart's greatest works were operas, concertos, or symphonies. I think one can argue for operas or concertos, and one can make a strong argument. Even so, Mozart wrote wonderful symphonies that many view as truly phenomenal works. It just so happens that he was able to write masterful works in essentially every genre.


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## jegreenwood

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I don't find anything in this excerpt even close to a convincing argument that Mozart's operas are better than his last symphonies. Or is Rosen's "Mozart's most signal triumphs" meant to be that?


That's how I read it. Also, the fact that Rosen devotes well over 100 pages to the three forms I mentioned, and maybe 5 to the symphonies.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

jegreenwood said:


> That's how I read it. Also, the fact that Rosen devotes well over 100 pages to the three forms I mentioned, and maybe 5 to the symphonies.


So Rosen did not write as much about Mozart's symphonies. Hardly convincing of anything.

But no matter, I can still enjoy the symphonies regardless if some think they are not Mozart's best works.


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## Heck148

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I disagree that his operas are his greatest works. They may be as good as his symphonies but I'm yet to see a convincing argument they are better. How would you make a strong case for it, I'm curious?


I'm not sure I would make a case for it - but the operas certainly show Mozart's artistry to great effect - the great vocal lines, the coherent form, the wonderful use of ensemble, the sense of drama and the constant melodic flow are certainly evident....

I had the opportunity to work with at least 3 great "Mozartians" as a performer - Boris Goldovsky, the opera guru; Walter Hendl, a great conductor, and Frank Glazer a wonderful pianist who specialized in chamber music....all of them stressed, in different ways, the constant flow of melody, the beautifully sustained melodic lines, the excellence of the form.....Glazer voiced the view that the essence of Mozart could be found in the operas, that of Beethoven in the symphonies, and that of Schubert in his songs....Goldovsky, I believe, felt the same way - his knowledge, and love of the operas was immense, and working with him on the Mozart operas was a special treat, indeed. with Hendl - it was the sustained flow of the music, the perfect form...
I don't know if I've answered your question - but these guys were really heavy hitters, who all had a profound effect on my career as a professional music performer.


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## Heck148

mmsbls said:


> I don't think it's so much a question of whether Mozart's greatest works were operas, concertos, or symphonies. I think one can argue for operas or concertos, and one can make a strong argument. Even so, Mozart wrote wonderful symphonies that many view as truly phenomenal works. It just so happens that he was able to write masterful works in essentially every genre.


Good summation....It is really hard to designate one category as superior to the others....He excelled in all.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Mozart and Beethoven are my favorite composers of symphonies. I really like Rene Jacobs' recordings of the final four, along with Jiri Belohlavek's recording of the Haffner and Linz symphonies.


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## Sonata

Mozarts operas always have moved me than his symphonies. However it's been a few years since I delved into his symphonic output and at that time I was listening to a lot of big romantic symphonies. I think I'll dip back in starting with these late symphonies. Right after I finish his Abduction from Seraglia


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## Haydn man

Returning to the original topic
All the last 6 symphonies are masterpieces to me. Personal favourite is No.38 with the power of the music in the first movement and the use of only 3 movements. 
The rest of you can fight over the Symphonies or Operas and I will take the Piano Concertos


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## Heck148

I think it's interesting to read Bruno Walter's comments regarding his involvement with the music of Mozart - Walter, of course, one of the greatest "Mozarteans":

Bruno Walter: “When I was very young, when I was a teenager, then I was only enthusiastic for the great pathos and the big emotions, and Mozart seemed to me at that time too quiet, too tranquil. Youth is more apt to love the shout and the great gestures. ... I fell into the same category. It needs some maturity to understand the depth of emotion that speaks in Mozart’s seeming tranquility and measure.”


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## PeterF

Heck148 said:


> I think it's interesting to read Bruno Walter's comments regarding his involvement with the music of Mozart - Walter, of course, one of the greatest "Mozarteans":
> 
> Bruno Walter: "When I was very young, when I was a teenager, then I was only enthusiastic for the great pathos and the big emotions, and Mozart seemed to me at that time too quiet, too tranquil. Youth is more apt to love the shout and the great gestures. ... I fell into the same category. It needs some maturity to understand the depth of emotion that speaks in Mozart's seeming tranquility and measure."


Bruno Walter, one of my favorite conductors, understood very well how to explain what is so vital in appreciating the music of Mozart.


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## Guest

My first choice is symphony No.38,the woodwinds in the first movement :angel: the Marriner recording .( Philips)

A have also a life-long soft spot for the 29


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## ldiat

man i love all of those pre mentioned and i can not choose my fav. but i do like this last movement....


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## Tchaikov6

Pugg said:


> My order of preference 40-41-39-38-36-35 .


My exact order!


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## Vaneyes

I agree with tdc about #25. Of the final six, "Prague" gets most of my interest. :tiphat:


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## Heck148

Symphony 35/IV is quite a tour de force for the orchestra...fast, lots of notes....frequent audition excerpt, esp for strings


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## jim prideaux

First movement no. 38........


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## Guillet81

Haydn man said:


> Returning to the original topic
> All the last 6 symphonies are masterpieces to me. Personal favourite is No.38 with the power of the music in the first movement and the use of only 3 movements.
> The rest of you can fight over the Symphonies or Operas and I will take the Piano Concertos


Excellent point. Here we are debating the quality of Mozart's Operas and Symphonies, only to ignore that he additionally wrote arguably the best Piano Concertos. What a testament to the miracle of Mozart that he is undeniably one of the best (if not simply the best) in so many musical forms.


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## poconoron

Guillet81 said:


> What a testament to the miracle of Mozart that he is undeniably one of the best (if not simply the best) in so many musical forms.


And even more amazing................ he didn't live past age 35!!!!! Beethoven had _22 more of his mature years_ to compose, Haydn had an extra 42 mature years to compose, JS Bach had an extra 30 of his mature years to compose. Which is why Mozart IMHO was the greatest of all considering the time he actually had on this Earth.


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## silentio

poconoron said:


> And even more amazing................ he didn't live past age 35!!!!! Beethoven had _22 more of his mature years_ to compose, Haydn had an extra 42 mature years to compose, JS Bach had an extra 30 of his mature years to compose. Which is why Mozart IMHO was the greatest of all considering the time he actually had on this Earth.


Yes, what made me so sad is that in his late works, after some brief but enduring exposure to the greatness of Bach and Handel, he began to demonstrate a unique tendency to fuse Baroque and Classical elements, with occasional pointers toward romanticism. Think of the mysterious Rondo in A minor K.511 (which sounds like Bach meets Chopin and Faure in a bar), Adagio in B minor, the Mass in C minor, Requiem, Jupiter, and the Overture to Die Zauberflote etc. If he had lived long enough to fully develop in that direction, imagine what would have happened to the 19th century and beyond!


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## Bettina

silentio said:


> Yes, what made me so sad is that in his late works, after some brief but enduring exposure to the greatness of Bach and Handel, he began to demonstrate a unique tendency to fuse Baroque and Classical elements, with occasional pointers toward romanticism.


Yes, the Baroque elements in his later works are intriguing! I love the fugue in the fourth movement of the Jupiter Symphony.


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## hpowders

My favorite of the group is 38. Does that make me a bad person?


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## Bettina

hpowders said:


> My favorite of the group is 38. Does that make me a bad person?


That's a fine symphony to choose. A very Praguegressive work.


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## jdec

poconoron said:


> And even more amazing................ he didn't live past age 35!!!!! Beethoven had _22 more of his mature years_ to compose, Haydn had an extra 42 mature years to compose, JS Bach had an extra 30 of his mature years to compose. Which is why Mozart IMHO was the greatest of all considering the time he actually had on this Earth.


The most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts. - (Richard Wagner)


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## Heck148

hpowders said:


> My favorite of the group is 38. Does that make me a bad person?


Hardly...I think my favorites, overall, are 38 and 39


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## DavidA

Last 3 are blinding masterpieces


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## Pugg

DavidA said:


> Last 3 are blinding masterpieces


If I could I give you 10 likes for this post!


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## DavidA

Just listened to 40 and 41 again. The finale of number 41 is as great and original as anything written since in the symphony line.


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## Francis Poulenc

Those are not the last 6 symphonies, you're missing No. 37.


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## Art Rock

No. 37 is now generally believed to be my M. Haydn.


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## PlaySalieri

Listened to classic fm last night a perf of sy 40 - not knowing who conductor is. I heard 2nd 3rd 4th mvts - I thought the 2nd mvt best i've ever heard it played - it can sound repetitive in the wrong hands(eg karajan) - but this was superb. anyway it was JE Gardiner.


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## PlaySalieri

Art Rock said:


> No. 37 is now generally believed to be my M. Haydn.


37 is M Haydn's - Mozart wrote a slow introduction for the 1st mvt.


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## Animal the Drummer

stomanek said:


> Listened to classic fm last night a perf of sy 40 - not knowing who conductor is. I heard 2nd 3rd 4th mvts - I thought the 2nd mvt best i've ever heard it played - it can sound repetitive in the wrong hands(eg karajan) - but this was superb. anyway it was JE Gardiner.


I rate Gardiner's Mozart quite a bit higher than his much vaunted Bach, which I find heartless.


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## DavidA

Heck148 said:


> I'm not sure I would make a case for it - but the operas certainly show Mozart's artistry to great effect - the great vocal lines, the coherent form, the wonderful use of ensemble, the sense of drama and the constant melodic flow are certainly evident....
> 
> I had the opportunity to work with at least 3 great "Mozartians" as a performer - *Boris Goldovsky, the opera guru; Walter Hendl, a great conductor, and Frank Glazer a wonderful pianist who specialized in chamber music..*..all of them stressed, in different ways, the constant flow of melody, the beautifully sustained melodic lines, the excellence of the form.....Glazer voiced the view that the essence of Mozart could be found in the operas, that of Beethoven in the symphonies, and that of Schubert in his songs....Goldovsky, I believe, felt the same way - his knowledge, and love of the operas was immense, and working with him on the Mozart operas was a special treat, indeed. with Hendl - it was the sustained flow of the music, the perfect form...
> I don't know if I've answered your question - but these guys were really *heavy hitters,* who all had a profound effect on my career as a professional music performer.


I wouldn't have said Hendl at least was noted for his Mozart. I don't think he recorded any apart from concertos with Heifetz


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## Heck148

DavidA said:


> I wouldn't have said Hendl at least was noted for his Mozart. I don't think he recorded any apart from concertos with Heifetz


I performed several Mozart and Haydn works with him, including Mozart g minor....he definitely knew his stuff....got everyone right into it.


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## Knight769

My favorite of this group is #40. The first movement is amazing! #25 is my fourth favorite Mozart symphony of all. Here is my order from Mozart's last six:

1. #40
2. #41
3. #39
4. #36
5. #35
6. #38


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## Animal the Drummer

My favourite single movement from any of them is the miraculous finale of no.41. As complete works they'd rank as follows for me:

1. No.39
2. No.41
3. No.36
4. No.40
5. No.38
6. No.35


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## Phil loves classical

My favourite cycle must be Jeffrey Tate's of the last symphonies. His No. 41 is my fav. No. 40 by Britten, No. 39 by Walter. No. 35 by Szell, even with no repeats.


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## Brahmsian Colors

For me the "Jupiter" is the sovereign of his final six. Both Szell and Klemperer are most convincing. After that, I would go with 39, 35 and 36, 40 and 38.


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