# magic vibrato method? (I wish!)



## Ingélou

I've looked on loads of sites & but the bottom line seems to be that vibrato will take six months wobbling your wrists/arms/fingers for ten minutes a day. Has anyone got any really helpful tips? I tried to learn it as a child but got nowhere...


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## Ukko

Hah. Here's a tip fer ya: Stick with Renaissance and early Baroque music. Broken consorts don't do vibrato.

No no, effusive thanks are unnecessary.


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## Ingélou

Hilltroll72 said:


> No no, effusive thanks are unnecessary.


Unnecessary, maybe, Hilltroll, but you & I both know that you'd like them!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Trying to remember what my violin teacher taught me all those years ago....

I think there was this one exericise where he asked me to put my third finger on any string in first position and play a long note, at half way through the note keep the third finger on the string and try to knock the tuning pegs with your first finger. Then on the next bow, do that twice, on the one after, four times and getting faster. I can't remember exactly though. I might not be of any help at all for all I know...

My wrist and arm vibrato has always been much better than my finger vibrato. :lol:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Also, drink lots of coffee, you will shake so much from the caffeine that your vibrato will be bellissimo!


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## tdc

Persistence is the key with vibrato. For me this was a weak area and I went through phases of believing I would never have a decent sounding vibrato because I practiced it so much and did not seem to improve much for a very long time (lets put it this way I practiced for a lot more than ten minutes a day at it for well over 6 months and still didn't feel like I had gained much ground). I seem to have found this technique more difficult than many others I've known for whatever reason. For me it felt like I had to slowly develop non-existent muscles in my arm and wrist before it would start to work. 
But through dedicated and consistent practice I was able to learn to do it well over time.


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## Ingélou

Thanks, tdc. That does cheer me a bit. I should be thinking in the long term, but Everest is climbable!


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## Ingélou

?????????????


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## Ukko

Ingenue said:


> ?????????????


Love _must_ have something to do with learning to play the violin. Maybe _Ryan_ knows specifics. When he returns from purgatory maybe he'll say.


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## Ingélou

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah. Here's a tip fer ya: Stick with Renaissance and early Baroque music. Broken consorts don't do vibrato.
> 
> No no, effusive thanks are unnecessary.


Actually, Hilltroll, I am going to thank you effusively... 
Taggart & I went to the seaside today and when I thought of the years ahead filled with practising vibrato, I suddenly felt very tired, and then ... that lightbulb moment came to me & your suggestion now made perfect sense. Thank you so much!

But I am grateful also to tdc & Composer of Avant Garde for helping me to clarify matters; I am also respectful, because by hard work you have mastered a skill that I will never have. 

Re love, Hilltroll: you're right; it permeates everything, and especially music.
'Amor vincit omnia.'

Here endeth the thread... Live long & prosper.


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## Head_case

Ingenue said:


> I've looked on loads of sites & but the bottom line seems to be that vibrato will take six months wobbling your wrists/arms/fingers for ten minutes a day. Has anyone got any really helpful tips? I tried to learn it as a child but got nowhere...


Don't know if it's helpful (since I'm not always known to be ) but... and stranger than fiction, as a flute player, I've been learning to teach (rather than the more straight forwarding teaching myself, which is just one step, as opposed to the former two steps of first learning how to teach myself, and then getting around to it) myself tremelo.

Consider it this way.

Most children having a 'wobbly' have wrist wringing tantrums. This kind of tremelo requires the arm muscles to be stationary, with the wrist loosened without tension so that the wrist can oscillate between the head of the radius and hand. It is a loose coarse movement with a pendular swing axis. For your violin hold, it's different from the lute tremelo which I'm more familiar with and oscillates at an angle, back and forth rapidly..

The other tremelo technique which I know of (but don't know if violinists use it) is a finger tremelo. This is a finer higher frequency oscillation used by rapid short strike-return strokes of the finger. The finger is relaxed and extended rapidly in short fine very slight movements.

You can use a combination of the two. For lute, it takes roughly 3-6 months just to loosen up the action of the tense wrist/finger movements. I guess there is no magic short cut unless you are a child blessed with soft lax joint muscles. The temptation to tighten up the arm muscles when trying to do tremelo takes that time to de-synchronise so that you learn independence of the wrist action or finger action of tremelo, from moving the whole upper arm limb even more coarsely.

That's how it makes sense to me for the lute. For an open hole flute, it's achieved by half-holing techniques easily.

Good luck!


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## Ingélou

I think I've been a bit 'previous' with this question. I need to get much better control of my fingering & bowing, and then I'll review the issue again. Thanks to all.


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## senza sordino

To learn vibrato, my violin teacher suggested that you push the scroll of the violin onto a wall to hold the violin extra steady then your wrist is freer to wobble or vibrato. Play long notes up pushing the violin against the wall, your left wrist is free to move without holding the neck and violin.


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## Ingélou

Thank you. I shall be ready to start the long slog of acquiring vibrato some time in the next few months, I hope, as I have now taken on a second teacher for the purpose of teaching exam technique - a hill-walking trainer. This is in addition: my first teacher, a baroque performer, is for flying! Between them, I mean to make progress...


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## Ingélou

My exam teacher has now asked me to start using vibrato. He seems to think I should 'just try', but I know it won't be that simple. When I first returned to the violin, two years ago, I did look up all sorts of advice & YouTube videos & I got 'not-too-bad' occasionally - now I can't even do that. It's very disheartening. I think the worst thing is, it's just very boring spending ages wiggling about. I have downloaded all sorts of videos to my Facebook page & think I should aim for an arm vibrato. If any violinist or violist is reading this, I'd like to ask - is there any video or tip that you could recommend?
This is really just a scream of anguish!


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## senza sordino

My third finger vibrato is much better than the other fingers. Not bad on the second and fourth finger and quite weak on my first finger. You might find this is the same for you. My third finger vibrato is so wide it reaches into the notes above and below, my first finger vibrato is almost non existent. 

Try my suggestion above, push the scroll against a wall to support the violin. But first try the vibrato on the third finger only. Learn to feel what a lose wrist is supposed to feel like.


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## Ingélou

I seem to do better if I have something other than scales to work on. Does anyone have suggestions for a slow easy tune where I could finger-warble on almost every other note, trying to develop my vibrato muscles and teach my arm what to do? Air on a g string is okay in places - and Traumerai seems a possibility. Any other candidates? :tiphat:


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## senza sordino

Londonderry Air arr. Kreisler 
Salut d'amour Elgar
Girl with the Flaxen hair Debussy
Liebesleid Kreisler 
Meditation from Thais Massenet


from my repertoire


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## Pip

Most people who can't master vibrato are holding the violin too rigidly in the left hand and arm - meaning there is too little support from the chin and shoulder. When I took master classes with Hugh Bean 45 years ago he told us all that we should be able to walk around a room with the fiddle well and truly supported by chin and shoulder with our hands in our pockets.
That develops such a feeling of lightness in the left arm/wrist/hand that ones vibrato is much easier to develop/improve.
The greatest paradox was learning to increase finger pressure without stiffening the wrist/arm at the same time.
Try walking around the room. Also are you using the best shoulder rest FOR YOU? The correct shoulder rest is different for all because it depends on the height of the shoulder and the length of the neck. So maybe you don't get enough shoulder/chin support, which brings the arm into a much more of a"holding the thing up" mode, which is not good for development.


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## Ingélou

:tiphat: Thanks, senza sordino, for the list of pieces for vibrato practice - they look just the job!

:tiphat: And thanks, Pip, for your advice. I think I'm okay with the shoulder rest - I have a long neck - and I have no problem supporting the violin with my shoulder & chin. But I will have another think about that tomorrow.

Certainly I am guilty of 'the death grip', being a rather tense person, so I will work on relaxing my rigidity.

I am managing a puny little wobble at present which is totally underwhelming. I just hope things will improve!


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## Ingélou

I made a bit of progress today, trying both scales and senza sordino's suggested Londonderry Air. I was doing the thing about anchoring the fiddle scroll on the wall in the corridor outside my bedroom, and then I realised that the bedroom lamp was casting a shadow of my left arm on the white wall. So I could deliberately make the shadow move to and fro as it's supposed to. It really helps to see how much you can shake your arm. I have a mirror in my practice room and can watch my arm reflected, but somehow the shadow is even better!


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## zvioliny

My teacher told me to put my second finger (middle finger) on the a string in a higher position and put the scroll against the wall. After that I was supposed to rock my hand back and forth on my finger, in the direction of the string, not from side to side. I learned pretty quickly that way.
I hope my explanation is understandable. Good luck!


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## heatedbonfire

zvioliny said:


> My teacher told me to put my second finger (middle finger) on the a string in a higher position and put the scroll against the wall. After that I was supposed to rock my hand back and forth on my finger, in the direction of the string, not from side to side. I learned pretty quickly that way.
> I hope my explanation is understandable. Good luck!


That sounds like the same method I was taught. Worked well for me too.


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## pirastro

I have heard the quickest way to acquire a good vibrato is to have a stand partner with a good vibrato.


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## Fagotterdammerung

Vibrato came to me very easily when it came to string playing. I agree with those that said relaxation is key.

Start with a slow wobble. This won't sound good, but at a very slow pace you can easily control it, and also control the _width_ of your vibrato, which tends to be a very personal thing among string players. Gradually pick up the pace once you feel you can.

( I miss vibrato. It's super easy to make on the horn ( diaphragm vibrato ) and sounds great to my ears - like classical saxophone, but it's not allowed in North America. :lol: )


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## JosefinaHW

Re/ vibrato and cello and viola da gamba

I don't play either but I am trying to learn to how to describe what I am hearing: is there a term for "non-vibrato" or do you just say "not playing vibrato"?


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## Ingélou

JosefinaHW said:


> Re/ vibrato and cello and viola da gamba
> 
> I don't play either but I am trying to learn to how to describe what I am hearing: is there a term for "non-vibrato" or do you just say "not playing vibrato"?


I don't know any special term, I'm afraid - or anything much about the cello & viola da gamba, though clearly the technique for vibrato on these instruments will be very different because of the way the instruments are held. 

Since I wrote the OP, my need for learning has receded, as the music that I am now interested in playing is early music and folk, with the occasional baroque piece - none of these normally use vibrato.


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## JosefinaHW

Thanks anyway, Ingelou... Sure an explanation of how it is done would be great but at this point I would be happy to just know if there is a proper term.


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## senza sordino

I don't know of any specific term for not playing with vibrato, other than "non vib" If you want it in Italian then it's _senza vibrato_


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## JosefinaHW

:Senza sordino: Yes, I think I'll go with the Italian. You should submit this as a new official term for _The Grove_!  Thank you very much for your reply!


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## metalbiff

My brother inlaw and fellow violin player from San Clemente had his vibrato so ingrained into his playing that when he would fool around with piano any note longer than an eighth he would wiggle his finger haha!


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## Tinijocaro

Brand new to this forum and saw this post. I teach 1st and 2nd year string players in public school and am a violinist myself. I used to teach middle and high school so I've dealt with all levels. Vibrato can be difficult to teach and most of what I've read here is pretty spot on. So many ways to skin a cat!

For particularly difficult cases, I have an unconventional method of teaching a wrist vibrato. When the focus is on keeping the wrist loose and waving back toward the scroll and back up, sometimes the wrist does what I call "the funky chicken". In the funky chicken-the student pumps the wrist back and forth rather than the hand waving back and forth. It negates any effort of doing vibrato.

This next part is tough to explain-would be easier with a video but since I'm new, I can't post a video. 

Instead of focusing on the wrist, focus on the joint closest to the tip of the finger. Many beginners to vibrato raise and lower the finger, lifting the string up and down which isn't at all close to what vibrato is. 

1.Instead, have student place 1st or 2nd finger on string, nicely squared. 

2.Next step is to flatten that knuckle, then raise it up again till squared, slowly and very relaxed. At first the knuckle will sort of snap into place, work on smoothing that out so it flattens and raises back up in a smooth, fluid, relaxed motion. Thumb should be relaxed. 

3.Once this becomes easy, you will notice the top of the hand (base knuckles) are waving back and forth as your knuckle flattens and comes back up. Begin to focus on what the rest of the hand is doing while the knuckle flattens and raises. Forget about the wrist-it will automatically do what it is supposed to do-don't give the wrist a thought (except to be sure wrist is generally straight, not flopped inward)

4. Once you understand the hand's role in vibrato, and sort of "force" the hand to move correctly in this way, try to capture the feeling of the hand's movement, being sure the knuckle continues to flatten and raise back up. Eventually, your focus will switch to moving the hand while allowing the knuckle to freely flatten and raise. Once the vibrato is comfortable, and relaxed, you can gradually speed it up. When you do, the knuckle won't flatten quite as much but it's best to exaggerate the motion of that knuckle to keep it nice and loose- otherwise you will end up with a quivery, tight vibrato.

As I said before, this is quite the opposite approach that most teachers take but can really work with a motivated student.

I hope this all makes sense.

I hope this is understandable


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## Tinijocaro

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Trying to remember what my violin teacher taught me all those years ago....
> 
> I think there was this one exericise where he asked me to put my third finger on any string in first position and play a long note, at half way through the note keep the third finger on the string and try to knock the tuning pegs with your first finger. Then on the next bow, do that twice, on the one after, four times and getting faster. I can't remember exactly though. I might not be of any help at all for all I know...
> 
> My wrist and arm vibrato has always been much better than my finger vibrato. :lol:


This is good, although I do think it's much easier to learn the mechanics of vibrato without the bow at first. I have to post 10 times in order to upload pics-I have a pic that goes with this method of teaching vibrato. Soon.


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## Pugg

Tinijocaro said:


> Brand new to this forum and saw this post. I teach 1st and 2nd year string players in public school and am a violinist myself. I used to teach middle and high school so I've dealt with all levels. Vibrato can be difficult to teach and most of what I've read here is pretty spot on. So many ways to skin a cat!
> 
> For particularly difficult cases, I have an unconventional method of teaching a wrist vibrato. When the focus is on keeping the wrist loose and waving back toward the scroll and back up, sometimes the wrist does what I call "the funky chicken". In the funky chicken-the student pumps the wrist back and forth rather than the hand waving back and forth. It negates any effort of doing vibrato.
> 
> This next part is tough to explain-would be easier with a video but since I'm new, I can't post a video.
> 
> Instead of focusing on the wrist, focus on the joint closest to the tip of the finger. Many beginners to vibrato raise and lower the finger, lifting the string up and down which isn't at all close to what vibrato is.
> 
> 1.Instead, have student place 1st or 2nd finger on string, nicely squared.
> 
> 2.Next step is to flatten that knuckle, then raise it up again till squared, slowly and very relaxed. At first the knuckle will sort of snap into place, work on smoothing that out so it flattens and raises back up in a smooth, fluid, relaxed motion. Thumb should be relaxed.
> 
> 3.Once this becomes easy, you will notice the top of the hand (base knuckles) are waving back and forth as your knuckle flattens and comes back up. Begin to focus on what the rest of the hand is doing while the knuckle flattens and raises. Forget about the wrist-it will automatically do what it is supposed to do-don't give the wrist a thought (except to be sure wrist is generally straight, not flopped inward)
> 
> 4. Once you understand the hand's role in vibrato, and sort of "force" the hand to move correctly in this way, try to capture the feeling of the hand's movement, being sure the knuckle continues to flatten and raise back up. Eventually, your focus will switch to moving the hand while allowing the knuckle to freely flatten and raise. Once the vibrato is comfortable, and relaxed, you can gradually speed it up. When you do, the knuckle won't flatten quite as much but it's best to exaggerate the motion of that knuckle to keep it nice and loose- otherwise you will end up with a quivery, tight vibrato.
> 
> As I said before, this is quite the opposite approach that most teachers take but can really work with a motivated student.
> 
> I hope this all makes sense.
> 
> I hope this is understandable


The more opinions the better, welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


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## Tinijocaro

One more thought for the OP. When we call it "wrist" vibrato, we often confuse students. Calling it wrist vibrato makes the student think they must move their wrist move in and out, resulting what I lovingly called "the funky chicken" in my post above.

I think a more appropriate name for wrist vibrato is hand vibrato. The hand is what moves back and forth, not the wrist.

If you are attempting what is commonly known as a wrist vibrato, try changing your thought and think of it as a hand vibrato.

One way to demonstrate this without the instrument is to take your forearm and brace it against a wall so that your hand is at the top. Keeping your arm against the wall at all times, knock on the wall with the base knuckle of your index finger. This is very similar to the motion used in a wrist or hand vibrato, although on the instrument the hand dips back further.

Was going to try to post a video but I think this explains it fairly well.


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## Ingélou

^^^^ Thanks for all your helpful posts, Tinijocaro. :tiphat: Will be trying them all out!


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