# Renaissance composers lounge



## Sid James

I've recently become acquainted with the masses of William Byrd. I love the intertwining of voices (polyphony), and it sounds so rich that I'm surprised that it's only sung by 3 to 5 singers.

Anyway this is the place to discuss Byrd or any other Renaissance composers (c. 1400 - 1600) you like: Palestrina, Tallis, Lassus, des Prez, and so on.

Any favourite performers or recordings?


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## Guest

*At last *something other than the romantic era, I enjoy all the composers that you have mentioned plus a whole lot more, have you heard any CDs of the choirs of "Christ College" and "Kings College" they cover all of these composers and are truly great choirs.


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## kg4fxg

*Two Groups...*

I have been madly in love with these two groups below. Yes, Renaissance music I find so relaxing. I can get so obsessed with it.

Harry Christophers and the Sixteen
Stile Antico

These albums are just wonderful.

....After thirty years of world-wide performance and recording, The Sixteen is recognised as one of the world's greatest ensembles. Comprising both choir and period-instrument orchestra, The Sixteen's total commitment to the music it performs is its greatest distinction. Its special reputation for performing early English polyphony, masterpieces of the Renaissance, bringing fresh insights into Baroque and early Classical music and a diversity of 20th Century music, is drawn from the passions of conductor and founder, Harry Christophers.

Stile Antico is an ensemble of young British singers, now established as one of the most original and exciting new voices in its field. Prizewinners at the 2005 Early Music Network International Young Artists' Competition, the group is much in demand in concert and records exclusively for Harmonia Mundi. Their debut disc Music for Compline drew superlative reviews, winning the Diapason d'Or de l'année, the Choc du Monde de la Musique, and attracting a nomination for the 50th GRAMMY awards. Their second release Heavenly Harmonies has received the Preis der deustchen Schallplattenkritik and the Diapason d'Or.


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## Rasa

Hmm, Franco-Flemish composers... delightful.


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## bdelykleon

Andre,
Take a look at Gesualdo, he has a very personal style.


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## Guest

kg4fxg said:


> I have been madly in love with these two groups below. Yes, Renaissance music I find so relaxing. I can get so obsessed with it.
> 
> Harry Christophers and the Sixteen
> Stile Antico
> 
> These albums are just wonderful.
> 
> ....After thirty years of world-wide performance and recording, The Sixteen is recognised as one of the world's greatest ensembles.
> .


I have just acquired the Chandos Anthems by the Sixteen, it was a recording I heard about 15 yrs or so ago, and is just magnificent. I also have a video of them performing the Messiah in Ireland.


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## kg4fxg

*Interesting....*

I'll have to look for some videos. I know Stile Antico has about three albums out and Harry Christophers and the Sixteen have at least 20 or so albums.

The sound is amazing and mesmerizing. It does not take much to become adicted. Some groups that perform in this style have only a few singing but you would think there were so many.

This early music really is a treasure.


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## Guest

The video was of an anniversary performance in Dublin.
If I may:
A couple of recommendations,
The choir of new college Oxford
Sancte Deus, A journey through the renaissance, works by,
Tallis Lassus, Victoria, Ugolini Byrd Palestrina and others 
Erato 8573-80239-2

The Choir of Christ’s College, Cambridge
Music of the Tudors
Tallis,Mundy Taverner plus others absolutely wonderful “A Capella” singing
CCC-CD007
I was lucky enough to attend one of their concerts when they came to NZ a few years ago, it was electrifying


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## Sid James

Well thanks, Andante & kg4fxg, for the information about those performers of Renaissance music. I will be on the lookout for them.

I think that the impact that these composers made on the course of music history was of significance, but not known by many people. Bruckner, for example, was well acquainted with the music of Palestrina (he must have sung his settings of the latin mass when a young chorister). So it goes without saying that Palestrina had a huge, even if subliminal, influence on the music that Bruckner would come to compose himself. So I think that the techniques employed by Renaissance composers have influenced music right up to today (eg. some of the pieces of Arvo Part). It's a significant part of the classical musical heritage. This is the reason why I think that getting to know Renaissance music deepens & enriches my enjoyment of other music.

I also found a very interesting quote by Byrd about the effect of the scriptural texts upon him:"I have found that there is such a power hidden away and stored up in those words that...all the most fitting melodies come as it were of themselves, and freely present themselves when the mind is alert and eager." This provides an interesting insight into Byrd's process of composition. It's important to note that Byrd remained a Catholic, although most of his countrymen changed to the Church of England. His intransigence was tolerated by Queen Elizabeth I, who probably ignored his bucking of the trend because of his genius.


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## Mirror Image

Andre, I knew you would be back.


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## kg4fxg

*Videos*

Andante I will check out the videos - Many Thanks. And Andre thanks for sharing your insight there is indeed much here to look at and digest. If you do iTunes you can see and sample albums that I recommended by those two groups.


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## Guest

Andre said:


> I also found a very interesting quote by Byrd about the effect of the scriptural texts upon him:"I have found that there is such a power hidden away and stored up in those words that...all the most fitting melodies come as it were of themselves, and freely present themselves when the mind is alert and eager." This provides an interesting insight into Byrd's process of composition. It's important to note that Byrd remained a Catholic, although most of his countrymen changed to the Church of England. His intransigence was tolerated by Queen Elizabeth I, who probably ignored his bucking of the trend because of his genius.


No matter what our views on religion are we have a big debt to the Churches, Monasteries etc for a lot of the music of those era's.


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## Sid James

Andante said:


> No matter what our views on religion are we have a big debt to the Churches, Monasteries etc for a lot of the music of those era's.


Certainly, and they played a huge role in preserving culture - music, visual art, literature - at a time of great instability (the many wars, changes in religious dogma, uprisings, etc.)


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## haydnguy

This was my last purchase in this genre and is quite good. I also like the Hilliard Ensemble and have a number of Palestrina, etc., from Naxos.

(sorry for the size)









The one below is actually earlier music than the Renaissance (so briefly off topic) but is quite good if you like early religious music at a good price.


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## Guest

*Haydnguy*, How good is the Tallis set, I have it in my sights


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## haydnguy

I have only listened to about half of the set but it really is excellent. Excellent sound and beautiful.


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## Weston

My very favorite from the time period is *John Dowland* without question. His songs can still move one to tears or joy today. "Can she excuse my wrongs?" (also called somebody-r-other's Galliard when an instrumental) is possibly my favorite. And no, I don't care much for Sting's versions of these songs, though they are interesting interpretations. You've got to hand it to the guy for trying different things.

I also enjoy selections from *Praetorius*' _Terpsichore _collection. It doesn't matter which selections -- they all sound quite a bit alike, but are nonetheless fascinating.

What I love the most about this time period are the fantastic experiments in rhythm with complex accents no one has attempted since (that I know of). Also, though I have read theory on modal music, I can't really feel it as they probably did, since I am very much mired in the common practice language of music. I understand Renaissance music was still fairly modal, but I have noticed if a piece is in a mode we would call a minor key today, it still must end phrases on a major triad -- or it could end one phrase on the minor, but then the next phrase must end with a major triad to have more finality. I don't quite have the words to express what I'm hearing, but it has the effect of making the music brighter and making it move more perhaps even than common practice music moves, having that final major sonority as a target at the end of it all.

[Edit: It was the Earl of Essex Galliard I was trying to remember - full title: Can she excuse (The Right Honourable Robert, Earl of Essex, his Galliard). Those folks surely knew how to give pretentious names!]


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## Guest

haydnguy said:


> I have only listened to about half of the set but it really is excellent. Excellent sound and beautiful.


The audio is what I should have said, but with your comments and some of the reports that I have seen I am convinced, I must have


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## Guest

Andre said:


> Anyway this is the place to discuss Byrd or any other Renaissance composers (c. 1400 - 1600) you like: Palestrina, Tallis, Lassus, des Prez, and so on.
> 
> Any favourite performers or recordings?


I have just realised that kg4fxg and myself have discussed Handel 1685-1759, please accept apologies for my part I just got carried away, promise not to wander again


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## Guest

haydnguy said:


> This was my last purchase in this genre and is quite good. I also like the Hilliard Ensemble and have a number of Palestrina, etc., from Naxos.
> 
> (sorry for the size)


Just recieved the above set, so far have heard CD1-Henry VIII and CD2- Reformation, really a great ensemble [Chapelle Du Roi] ashamed to admit this is the first CD that I have of them, looking forward to doing Queen Mary tonight CD3


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## haydnguy

Glad you like it, Andante!


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## StlukesguildOhio

I am an ardent admirer of "early music"... albeit most of what I listen to that falls under that rubric is even earlier that the Renaissance. Among the Renaissance composers I am most drawn to the works of Lassus, Josquin DesPrez, Palestrina, Schutz, Gabrieli, Thomas Tallis and Gesualdo... though we might add Monteverdi as a transitional figure from the Renaissance to the Baroque. Among my favorite performers of the work of this period I would include the tallis Scholars, the Hilliard Ensemble, Philippe Herreweghe, Chanticleer, Ensemble Unicorn, Sequentia, etc... Now if we had a "real" early music thread...


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## Sid James

I've just started to listen to *T. L. de Victoria's* _Requiem a 6_ sung by a local choir, of Christchurch St Laurence. This music seems to have a sort of natural flow to it, it sounds simpler than other Renaissance composers I have heard. For a requiem, it also is quite matter of fact and relaxed, no doom & gloom here. It's an interesting listen and so is the Gregorian chant form of the requiem mass, sung by men only (of course) on the same disc.


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## Ignis Fatuus

Andante said:


> Just recieved the above set, so far have heard CD1-Henry VIII and CD2- Reformation, really a great ensemble [Chapelle Du Roi] ashamed to admit this is the first CD that I have of them, looking forward to doing Queen Mary tonight CD3


I have this! Love all of it but especially the Queen Bess CD


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## Sid James

I've just bought a cd on the Australian label Tall Poppies, of the Sydney Chamber Choir directed by Nicholas Routley performing the works of *Josquin des Prez*, including his famous _Missa Pange Lingua_. It was recorded right here in Sydney. From what I've read, Josquin was one of the most innovative composers of the time, starting practices that enhanced the polyphonic sound. Seemingly simple devices like repeating the same phrase sung in the same note by different parts of the choir, or changing the note sung gradually by the group were started by him. Apart from this, my impression of this music is that it is like a dense wall of sound, which is startlingly similar to what C20th composers like Ligeti, Penderecki & Part would do 400 or so years later. Amazing.


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## hocket

I hadn't come across this thread before.

I have the Chapelle du Roi Tallis set, and it is excellent. Some of the best sung Tallis around and it also features some great stuff that hasn't been recorded anywhere else at all. Wonderfully full bass sound -Tallis Scholars take note!

More recently I've been working my way through The Cardinal's Musick's epic William Byrd recordings. They're awesome- the best Byrd I've heard. As soon as the peak kicked in on Domine Quis Habitat on vol. 1 I was hooked and vol. 2 was even better. It hasn't let me down since the either.

*Andre wrote:*



> I've just bought a cd on the Australian label Tall Poppies, of the Sydney Chamber Choir directed by Nicholas Routley performing the works of Josquin des Prez, including his famous Missa Pange Lingua. It was recorded right here in Sydney. From what I've read, Josquin was one of the most innovative composers of the time, starting practices that enhanced the polyphonic sound.


Josquin was without question the most celebrated composer of the age (in an era when competition to employ the most renowned musicians was at its fiercest). I'm not familiar with that recording, but I do have quite a lot of Josquin. My personal recommendaion would be to start with The Hilliard Ensemble's 'Motets and Chansons' which is the best 'hits' package IMO (it also comes as a double disc with their excellent recording of his 'Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae). From there I'd go on to the Orlando Consort's 'Motets' which I really can't recommend highly enough. It's an unbelievably great record. The Clerk's Group have also made some outstanding recordings of Josquin Masses that I'd look out for if you like his music.

I found the 'wall of sound' comment interesting. I know what you mean and yet it's just not how I view music of this era. My favourite description was one I read by T. S. Eliot that the different lines of polyphony create an audible 'space' which the listener occupies; rather like being at the eye of a storm.

Oh btw, I've got quite a lot of vocal and viol music but something I don't have any of at present is music for recorder consort. Any recommendations? I'm particularly keen to get some stuff featuring the giant upright bass recorder.


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## hocket

I had a search for that Eliot quote for my own interest and discovered that I'd somewhat misattributed it. What I actually read was a description from someone (an artist apparently) called Jon Atack on his website in which he quotes Eliot's Burnt Norton to illustrate his point:



> The addition of a second part forms an audible space. The listener hears the difference between the sung notes, as if they were engaged in a delicately choreographed dance, spiralling about each other with no fixed centre. The listener is placed, as T.S.Eliot had it, 'at the still point of the turning world'. It is as if a beautiful, but two dimensional, calligraphed line has been extended into the third dimension.


Anyway, I thought I'd better correct myself lest I start spreading misinformation. Whilst the description may have been made by someone not quite so distinguished in the public eye I still think it's a particularly eloquent one.


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## TWhite

Chanticleer singing Byrd, Tallis, Victoria, Palestrina, among others. 

It doesn't get much better than that!

Tom


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## StlukesguildOhio

Currently listening to this marvelous recording:


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## StlukesguildOhio

One name that hasn't popped up yet... and I'm greatly surprised... is Claudio Monteverdi. Not long ago I came across someone who declared Monteverdi to be the greatest Italian composer ever. I was somewhat taken aback. After all, Monteverdi? What of Vivaldi? Puccini?, Verdi? Rossini? With time, however, I have come to suspect he may have been right.


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## hocket

I have another Cantica Symphonia Dufay recording but not that one. I take it that it's worth looking out for.



> One name that hasn't popped up yet... and I'm greatly surprised... is Claudio Monteverdi.


Well, he's most famous for moving away from the Renaissance style so tends not to be discussed in that category. Certainly his most famous music is not in the style of the Renaissance but is early Baroque. Obviously labels are of limited value but a change was noticeable at the time, hence the 'secunda pratica'. Also, people can and have made a case for Palestrina being the finest Italian composer -evidently it is highly debateable. Considering his influence I'd have thought that Arcangelo Corell must be in with a shout. Nonetheless I'd tend to presume that Monteverdi would be 'the favourite' amongst the cognoscenti. Amongst other transitional figures like Monteverdi I'd say that Giovanni Gabrieli's music is especially outstanding (I've got some great recording's by Jean Tubery's La Fenice and also by the Gabrieli Consort that I'd strongly recommend to anyone who's interested). I'm also becoming an enthusiast of the 'music mesuree' of Claude Le Jeune and Eustache du Caurroy which moved away from the polyphonic approach too.


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## hocket

Here's some samples from that La Fenice Gabrieli disc I mentioned:






and:


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## Sid James

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One name that hasn't popped up yet... and I'm greatly surprised... is Claudio Monteverdi. Not long ago I came across someone who declared Monteverdi to be the greatest Italian composer ever. I was somewhat taken aback. After all, Monteverdi? What of Vivaldi? Puccini?, Verdi? Rossini? With time, however, I have come to suspect he may have been right.


Well Monteverdi seemed to have summed up the past as well as predicting (or at least prefiguring) much of what was to come later. His music is very emotional, technically brilliant, innovative, imaginative, and I could go on. I haven't heard many of his works, but I'm getting into them bit by bit. The _Vespers of 1610_ is just a knockout, it is a work of the ages. It's not only a choral work, but also part chamber music, part opera and part concerto. There's something in there for everyone. There are many interpretations of this work, and all of them are different, none are definitive. The reason is that in what we have of the score, Monteverdi only noted down the bare essentials - a lot has been left to scholarship to fill in those gaps as well as to conventions rather than strict rules or dogmas. It's basically very malleable, like a block of marble before it is chipped away at by a sculptor. How it sounds also depends on the size of the forces used and the combination of instruments and voice colours. Apart from the first version with an instrumental ensemble accompanying the vocalists, there's also one where the main accompanist is on organ.

There may be no "definitive" performance, but Monteverdi's _Vespers_ is unquestionably a defining work of classical music history, culture and civilisation. But if that suggests that it's a museum piece, it's not that at all. Just like any of the great masterpieces of later eras, this work is a living and breathing document. If you haven't got it, try to hear it now! It's ancient and modern at the same time - that's perhaps it's most brilliant aspect. I can tell anyone honestly, they won't regret their time spent hearing it, and once that happens, you are almost guaranteed to be "hooked." You'll want to return to and relive this inspiring and uplifting masterpiece again and again...


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## StlukesguildOhio

My understanding of the Vespers (Vespro della Beata Vergine 1610) is that the score was published in 1610 and it clearly spells out the large forces of solo vocalists and choirs as well as the solo instrumentalists... but it leaves the accompanying orchestration open as to what instruments should be employed. It also leaves open to the judgment of the performers the choice of plainchant antiphons before each psalm and the concluding Magnificat. This allows the performers to custom tailor the music according to the available instrumental forces and the occasion of the performance.

Monteverdi's opera, L'Orfeo is "orchestrated" in a similar open-ended manner. The composer clearly established the notes to be played and he listed some 40 instruments to be deployed and stipulated specific groupings intended to depict given characters, scenes, and moods. The work, however, was not "orchestrated" in the modern sense with specific instruments being clearly assigned specific notes. The individual performers were again given the opportunity to improvise based upon their needs and intentions, and the availability of instrumentalists. It is fascinating that early music... up through the Baroque... often shares this embrace of improvisation that will be a hallmark of jazz.

You should look into L'Orfeo, Andre. It is as thrilling as the Vespers:





















And you still have the wealth of his madrigals to explore. Here, from his 8th Book of Madrigals is one of his most sublime works. The high voice that eventually enters singing over the massed voices is almost reminiscent of an Arab/Andalusian chant:


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## kv466

Good to know you're finally acquainted.


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## Il_Penseroso

Anyone here listened to this ?










It's a set of vocal and instrumental short pieces especially written by Italian composers of 16th century like Giovanni Bassano, Luzzasco Luzzaschi, Giovanni Bovicelli, etc ... Most of the compositions consist of a solo instrument (Cornetto, Viola da gamba) or a vocal part (Soprano, Alto) performing with a speciall virtuosic style of the 16th century, while accompanying by Harpsichord or Organ. It's such a beautiful collection which is heavily recommended.


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