# Similarity between Mahler's and Bruckner's 9th last movement



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

I have recently began to listen to Bruckner more and more, And when I got to the 9th I have noticed a striking similarity between both of the last movements (The 3rd mov. in Bruckner's case, as of course it is unfinished)
Especially the beginning of both movements with the unison in the strings, And even after that.
Do you find it interesting too? Do you agree?


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I find it interesting that they both left their final symphonies unfinished and I find it interesting that they both left enough material completed to allow the recording of performance versions. As for similarities, I could not comment, since I only acquired recordings in the last 18 months or less and haven't been able to make my way through the entire collection yet to allow a relisten.


----------



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

I would urge you to listen to those movement, It is quite intriguing. The very first bars sound very similar.
I also found a motive in the scherzo of the 4th symphony that Mahler used in the scherzo of his 2nd symphony.
I know they were good friends in real life, And Bruckner is also believed to have taught Gustav (not formally).
Anyway, his influence is definitely apparent.
But Mahler is the one I certainly like the most.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Yes, both movements begin by emphasizing a minor ninth upwards in the strings. I too have thought that Mahler was paying an homage to his forbear in this instance, although he had something of a rocky relationship with Bruckner's music.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Indeed, the openings cited (Bruckner's Ninth final movement, Mahler's Ninth final movement) share a strikingly similar form. Hard to argue against Mahler paying homage to Bruckner. Yet, while the Bruckner piece seems to reach upwards (and doesn't Bruckner's music _always_ reach upwards!), the Mahler, which quickly latches onto the theme, that familiar "turn" motif, seems more music with a "downward" sweep. The Mahler certainly leads to what seems a sense of "dying". It was Bernstein who famously argued that the ending of Mahler's Ninth had a double sense of death -- that famous motif, so common in Western classical and romantic music, becomes a symbol for the death of the music that Mahler knew and loved. (In the face of what was then currently happening from the younger crowd -- Schoenberg and such.) The final movement itself is a musical dramatization of the act of dying itself, leading to a final breath, and then utter silence.

I think the visions of the symphonies differ, illustrating that familiar dictum (attrib. to Peter Munves) that "Mahler all his life was searching for God, and Bruckner had found God."

Of course we don't know for certain what Bruckner had in mind for an ending to his Ninth (though we do have some good idea from the various sketches), but it is certain that the composer intended the symphony for God. Thus his dedication: "to the beloved God" (in German, "dem lieben Gott"). I sense that the third movement of the Ninth is a sort of prayer from Purgatory -- Purgatory here being close to an earthly domain -- by which Bruckner is preparing his soul to meet the final stage of his outcome, which would be the meeting with God, the subject matter of the final movement (the unfinished fourth movement) of the Ninth. I have a feeling it would have been a glorious statement. And if you've heard any of the "completions" of this movement (I have a couple of "completed Bruckner Ninths" in my collection), it is.

I also think that Mahler couldn't rest well with his "final statement", as given by the final movement of his Ninth, which explains why he turned on his deathbed, literally, to sketching out a Tenth Symphony, one which invokes Dante's poem "Purgatorio". Mahler may not have had Bruckner's faith, but he didn't like just leaving consciousness to dissolve, as the end of the Ninth seems to imply. So he turned to the Tenth to rectify things, and indeed that work seems to be in another realm, one quite out of this world in a way that none of the other nine symphonies of Mahler are. It is almost as if Mahler is saying there has to be something more ... just because total annihilation of the self seems so absurd.

One could discuss these two composers and their final symphonies for hours, but perhaps its best just to listen. Which is what I did this evening after reading post #1 in this thread. I played both symphonic movements, the finales of the Bruckner and the Mahler Ninths. And I feel refreshed, as well as a bit sobered by the experience. This is awesome music, among the greatest ever written by anyone. And to couple them together in a single listening session? Priceless.

By the way, folks reading this post might be interested in seeing the following page -- a couple of antecdotes concerning Bruckner and Mahler and Leonard Bernstein. Well worth a look! -- http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/interestingbernste/


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Mahler hardly felt that Schoenberg was the death of the music he knew. On the contrary, on his deathbed, he did in fact express a regret that he would not be there to continue to encourage his erstwhile friend.

The Ninth is not about Mahler's death. That is sentimental nonsense grafted onto the work by Bernstein and others. Mahler did not write it as a final statement, and had no idea that it would be his last completed work.

The Tenth was not only not "literally" sketched on Mahler's deathbed, it was sketched in its entirety in the summer of 1910 and finished about half a year before the last concert Mahler conducted, in February 1911. Furthermore, "Purgatorio" (the words "or Inferno" following it are crossed out) was only meant to apply to the short movement in the center of the work, not to the whole thing.


----------



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, both movements begin by emphasizing a minor ninth upwards in the strings. I too have thought that Mahler was paying an homage to his forbear in this instance, although he had something of a rocky relationship with Bruckner's music.


Could you elaborate? I myself have a kind of a love-hate relationship with Bruckner's music (though I didn't listen to it enough to really get into it).
Anyway, I feel that Bruckner's music requires close attention, as in a sense it is not as transparent as Mahler's music.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Gustav Mahler said:


> Could you elaborate? I myself have a kind of a love-hate relationship with Bruckner's music (though I didn't listen to it enough to really get into it).
> Anyway, I feel that Bruckner's music requires close attention, as in a sense it is not as transparent as Mahler's music.


When Mahler was a student at the Vienna Conservatory, he sat in on some of Bruckner's classes, but never became a "student of Bruckner." He was there at the disastrous premiere of the Third Symphony, where he was one of the few left behind at the end to console the composer after everyone else had fled. He ended up helping with the piano duo version of the symphony and, according to Alma, made sure that the royalties would help promote Bruckner's work, though this is anecdotal and we lack other corroborating evidence. One of his early conducting successes was Bruckner's Te Deum and he wrote an adulatory message in the score. Then he maintained a somewhat close relationship with Bruckner for the rest of his life. It was in the early years that Bruno Walter reported hearing Mahler call Bruckner his "forbear."

In the later Vienna years, Mahler's attitude seemed to change. He pointedly corrected interviewers who called him Bruckner's student. Although he conducted a few of Bruckner's works, he played them cut and often reorchestrated, and when offered the opportunity to conduct the newly printed Ninth, he refused (it must be noted that the versions he had access to are today generally rejected as inauthentic, including that Ninth). Some years later, he was playing through the works of Bruckner and Brahms and burst out with his famous comment "Beethoven, and Wagner, and after them, nobody!" He criticized the "nonsense" that filled the development section of the First, among other things, "despite some glorious themes."


----------



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

Many thanks, That just opened my mind!
It is very interesting-
So Mahler may have disliked Brahms and Bruckner?
You are talking about Brahms's first or Bruckner's?
Since Mahler is my idol, I am very intrigued by what he liked and despised.
Are there any other known composers Mahler very much liked and disliked?
Where did you learn all of this? You are very lucky. I only know music theory, But not much history and composers biographies.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Gustav Mahler said:


> Many thanks, That just opened my mind!
> It is very interesting-
> So Mahler may have disliked Brahms and Bruckner?
> You are talking about Brahms's first or Bruckner's?
> ...


Well, his relationship with Brahms was also something of a love-hate one. They were actually personal friends for a time.

I was talking about Bruckner's First (which would be in the so-called Vienna version as it was first published).

Mahler was very fond of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner.
Mahler disliked or had little sympathy for Adam, Reger, Johann Strauss, the music of his friend Bruno Walter, and American composers of the time. He disliked the one piece of Sibelius's that he heard, but it was a lighter work, not one of Sibelius's more serious pieces.

Much of my knowledge of Mahler comes from having read through La Grange's massive four-volume biography. (Picture is not mine.)


----------



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

Thank you, That is very interesting.
Wow, I really do admire you for reading so much about the great Gustav!
I am sure reading about Mahler is fascinating-One can know that once he listens to his symphonies and to their depth.
Do you know about his relation to some other composers? I am very curious.
Forgive me for asking to many questions-
1) I have heard he was a bit of a self-loathing Jew, Is that true? I have heard from one of my composition teachers that he was laughing at the sight of the religious Jews (I think it was in New York)
2) Might sound a bit strange, but did he have any pets? Is he known to have liked animals?
3) How was is music accepted by other great composers?
4) Could you tell a few of his main hobbies?
5) Was he a really great pianist, And if so, why didn't he perform in public?
6) Is it certain that his recordings playing the piano are really him playing?
7) This one is very important-About is temper:
It is known that he was neurotic. How did he exactly behave with his friends and family?
Was he very hot headed, prone to rage and such, like Beethoven?
Also, was he sensitive? I mean, if he was criticized did it hurt him?
And what about self confidence-Was he socializing, telling jokes, Or was he a more "closed" person? 
8) He seems to be speaking of the after life quite a lot. Did he really, really believe that? Did he indeed believe in god? 
9) Last but not Liszt, What about his romantic life? Was he falling in love often, like Bruckner?

Sorry for the rain of question, There is just so much I've always wanted to know about Mahler, And finally I meet the right man to ask!
Many thanks


----------



## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

Sounds like maybe you should purchase a biography of Mahler.


----------



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

That's a good idea. Now I just need time and money!


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Gustav Mahler said:


> Thank you, That is very interesting.
> Wow, I really do admire you for reading so much about the great Gustav!
> I am sure reading about Mahler is fascinating-One can know that once he listens to his symphonies and to their depth.
> Do you know about his relation to some other composers? I am very curious.
> ...


1) Like many assimilated Jews, he considered himself completely separate from the so-called Eastern Jews who lived in ghettos and practiced their religion. The anecdote is true, and the source is a letter he wrote to Alma, I believe. He wasn't self-loathing for his own Jewishness, though he was certainly made aware of it from quite early on in his career.

2) He did not have pets, and despite the intimations of animals such as birds in his symphonies, he did not like any noise, animal or human, when working.

3) At the time, it was looked upon with suspicion, especially outside of Germanic regions. Debussy supposedly walked out of a performance of the Second (more likely just its andante) and Rimsky-Korsakov warned Stravinsky not to look at the score that he had. Ralph Vaughan Williams called Mahler "a passable imitation of a composer." Within Germanic regions, Richard Strauss was friends with Mahler, but on a level of professional recognition more than sympathy for his work, and he only ever conducted two of Mahler's works, the First and Fourth Symphonies. It must be said that his relative coolness towards Mahler's works was reciprocated. Franz Schmidt, who played under Mahler at the Vienna Opera, never expressed any enthusiasm for his music. Early on, Mahler's only major supporters among top tier composers were Schoenberg (who dedicated his textbook Harmonielehre "to the memory of Mahler"), Berg, and Webern. More recently, his works have been appreciated by many composers, including Copland, Shostakovich, Britten, Berio, Bernstein, Boulez, and Schnittke.

4) Hiking and swimming were his favorite pastimes. He loved nothing more than to go for a long walk in the countryside and then swim a mile.

5) He was a good pianist, but he very early on realized that he could never make it as a virtuoso, so he didn't perform in public after his teenage years.

6) Yes, although player piano reproductions are never as exact as one might hope.

7) Mahler was quite introverted and absent-minded, and these were combined with an almost fanatical striving after perfection in his conducting duties. With his family and friends he was a genial father, enthusiastic about discussing literature (he loved Dostoevsky and Don Quixote) and philosophy (he was an early Nietzsche enthusiast and interested in theosophy) or music (his discussions with Natalie Blauer-Lechner are invaluable in our understanding of his own interpretations of his works). He did have a tendency to make sweeping statements (as with the above comment on Brahms/Bruckner). When it came to work, however, he was a stern taskmaster and would force his players and singers to their absolute limits every single time all the time. As for his sensitivity, he had to cope with criticism all his life; it was not that it did not bother him, as he did want to be understood and appreciated, but he had to be confident in what he did in order to continue doing it. Mahler was not the partying type, but he was not a recluse by any means.

8) Mahler did believe in god, but not in an orthodox religious sense. Bruno Walter reported that in response to questions about writing a mass setting, Mahler said he couldn't do it because he could not in good faith set the Credo. He might be described as an agnostic by some, or a theist by others. Either way, there's no doubt that he took spiritual ideas seriously.

9) In the first years of his professional life, he fell in love with a number of his singers. One rejection led to the creation of the first three songs we have from his pen, and another to the Songs of a Wayfarer. In the 1890s he was in a long relationship with Natalie Blauer-Lechner, as mentioned above, and in this case it was he who fell out of love with her, and although she followed him to Vienna (which he discouraged), their relationship gradually broke apart. After he married Alma, I'm not aware of any affairs, and it seems that he was faithful to her.


----------



## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

I can't thank you enough for this information.
I really ought to read his biography!


----------



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> ... The Mahler certainly leads to what seems a sense of "dying". It was Bernstein who famously argued that the ending of Mahler's Ninth had a double sense of death -- that famous motif, so common in Western classical and romantic music, becomes a symbol for the death of the music that Mahler knew and loved. (In the face of what was then currently happening from the younger crowd -- Schoenberg and such.) The final movement itself is a musical dramatization of the act of dying itself, leading to a final breath, and then utter silence.
> 
> ...
> 
> I sense that the third movement of the Ninth is a sort of prayer from Purgatory -- Purgatory here being close to an earthly domain -- by which Bruckner is preparing his soul to meet the final stage of his outcome, which would be the meeting with God, the subject matter of the final movement (the unfinished fourth movement) of the Ninth.


Nothing wrong with how you feel when you listen to this piece, but I do hope it is what you feel, not what you read about it.

I am always amazed that anyone can listen to that symphony in its entirety and think it is a "goodbye" or evokes a sense of "dying" and "fading away." That thing is so full of life and spirit. And he was coming off the *Eighth*, *Das Lied*, soon to write the *Tenth* -- Mahler clearly had _quite_ the spirit left in him. Hell, he may have been at his peak.

This goes for Bruckner, too. We know that finale was not the intended end. So why do we interpret it like the sound signifies some passing or transfiguration?


----------



## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Well, his relationship with Brahms was also something of a love-hate one. They were actually personal friends for a time.
> 
> I was talking about Bruckner's First (which would be in the so-called Vienna version as it was first published).
> 
> ...


Funny that, the dust jacket on my copy of volume 1 got too tattered up somewhere along the way and I had to discard it as well.


----------



## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

Sorry for resurrecting this, but does anyone feel that the final adagio of Mahler 3 could be an homage to Bruckner?


----------

