# Digging (even) deeper into atonal, serialist, and other complex, dense, often dissonant modernist music



## thecrackstreetboys (2 mo ago)

So, I'm an avant-music freak who loves stuff like Trout Mask Replica - an album where the instruments spend most of the time playing in entirely different keys, not to mention different rhythms. As this stuff has grown on me, it's evolved like a drug habit or a porn addiction where the less experimental stuff I used to listen to just doesn't do it for me anymore. The feeling I would compare it to is a splash of cold water to the face or a cup of black coffee or spicy food - though I understand music theory pretty well, there's nothing "intellectual" about it. It's endorphins and adrenaline rush. If you know that face puppies make when a sound confuses them and they tilt their head sideways to perk their ear up, that's the emotion I think of when I try to put a finger on what I want music to make me feel. What others might interpret as a "lack of understanding" I interpret as room for intrigue and curiosity.

So I've been listening to quite a bit of microtonal music, free improv and free jazz, Indonesian Gamelan as well as modern creative / free jazz that fused with Gamelan (Anthony Davis' Episteme), and modern classical as well. I've reached the point where less than half a dozen metal artists do anything for me anymore because it seems to me even the heaviest extreme metal bands don't get as edgy as the extremes of jazz and classical do. (And Luc Lemay, of Gorguts, who put out some of the most complex and original death metal ever made, had classical training too.)

So I'm starting this thread in hopes of finding my people and getting a more comprehensive view of what's out there and what people consider the most interesting works. I know you have to be around here somewhere, even if my skim through threads on Elliott Carter did immediately face me with repeated comments about how his fans are just "pretending."

That's really the main rationale for this thread: most of the time people discuss this kind of music, they suggest relatively tame, easy "ins" for people unaccustomed to it, who maybe don't actually like it anyway, to ease themselves in as if it's some sort of bitter medicine. I want a place where that's reversed! For me, I didn't need some pretty recordings of common practice period music to get me "in" to classical before I could gradually ease in to the less functionally harmonic side of things - it was finding recordings from people like Boulez or Partch that got me into "classical music" at all.

I have a more than novice collection already in the works at this point - I love the Tashi Quartet's take on Messian's Quatuor pour fin du temps (and I consider this to be on the consonant and pretty side of my preferences!), Carter's Double Concerto, Ginastera's Concertos 1 & 2, quite a few things from Schoenberg... for whatever it's worth, Mozart's Klavierkonzerte 20 & 21 is the only time so far that earlier stuff really had an effect on me. I'd list what I've got rated in my collection, but the website I use to track what I listen to is a nightmare when it comes to classical releases of any kind.

I'm essentially putting together a wide collection of the most diverse and varied, challenging stuff ever made. What should I make sure not to miss? What are your niche personal favorites? Some overlooked releases from big composers? Any websites with lists that you'd endorse?


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

After I`ve read the 1st paragraph I immediately thought of Carter. So I guess you`ve already found the right vein. Xenakis and Stockhausen are some "musts" in that path. Bartók and Ligeti are also some requirements if you don`t know them yet.

Some contemporary ones: Ferneyhough, Gubaidulina, Raphaël Cendo, Unsuk Chin, Wolfgang Mitterer, Olga Neuwirth.

Still, I must mention nothing gives me a bigger adrenaline rush than the 1st mvmt of Brahms` 1st Piano Concerto or the finale of the 4th Symphony.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Just thinking of non tonal music from the first half of the 20th century, the composer who really made an effort to write music in this style with lots of hummable tunes is Luigi Dallapiccola, in his Liriche Greche for example.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

In the post war period, the idea of systematically using all 12 pitches of the scale was generalised and extended to other elements of music - durations, timbres etc. Stockhausen spearheaded this expriment, and maybe the most complex of his compositions in this genre is Momente.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

At the same time as all this exploration of systematic music was going on, there were experiments with the opposite - intuitive non tonal music, no system at all. Morton Feldman, for example, composed like this. Just recently I’ve been enjoying this live performance of his piano concerto, Piano and Orchestra


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

And a third approach was neither systematic nor intuitive, but random. The idea was that, instead of constraining musical choices with a system, or letting the composer’s imagination determine the music, some elements of it should be totally randomly created. Cage explored this idea - often with beautiful results. Here’s his piece called Ryoanji


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

A fourth strand is about making music out of found sounds, the assembly of readymades. One of my favourite examples of this genre is Francisco Lopez’s Conops. Field recordings of insects juxtaposed, played simultaneously to create a form of polyphony, augmented with industrial sounding drones, squawking birds etc etc to produce what is some amazing music, too dramatic to be rightly called ambient IMO, I think this stuff demands to be listened to with the same focus as you would something by, for example, J S Bach or G. Machaut. The climax, at the end of course, is very effective!







As you can see by what I wrote, I’m really enthusiastic about this sort of stuff.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Shudders .........


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

haziz said:


> Shudders .........



I feel angry about this. You can see that the OP has asked a serious question and that people have made a serious attempt to reply seriously.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

haziz said:


> Shudders .........


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> I feel angry about this. You can see that the OP has asked a serious question and that people have made a serious attempt to reply seriously.


When a member listens to Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Dvořák and little else as evidenced from months and months of observation in the "Listening" thread, they really shouldn't be posting in this thread. Just my two cents.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

thecrackstreetboys said:


> So, I'm an avant-music freak who loves stuff like Trout Mask Replica - an album where the instruments spend most of the time playing in entirely different keys, not to mention different rhythms. As this stuff has grown on me, it's evolved like a drug habit or a porn addiction where the less experimental stuff I used to listen to just doesn't do it for me anymore. The feeling I would compare it to is a splash of cold water to the face or a cup of black coffee or spicy food - though I understand music theory pretty well, there's nothing "intellectual" about it. It's endorphins and adrenaline rush. If you know that face puppies make when a sound confuses them and they tilt their head sideways to perk their ear up, that's the emotion I think of when I try to put a finger on what I want music to make me feel. What others might interpret as a "lack of understanding" I interpret as room for intrigue and curiosity.
> 
> So I've been listening to quite a bit of microtonal music, free improv and free jazz, Indonesian Gamelan as well as modern creative / free jazz that fused with Gamelan (Anthony Davis' Episteme), and modern classical as well. I've reached the point where less than half a dozen metal artists do anything for me anymore because it seems to me even the heaviest extreme metal bands don't get as edgy as the extremes of jazz and classical do. (And Luc Lemay, of Gorguts, who put out some of the most complex and original death metal ever made, had classical training too.)
> 
> ...


You sound a lot like me (although I am not really a Beefheart fan). I love the Anthony Davis mention!

Carter may be my favorite composer, and no, I am not pretending. 

Hear are a few more that may be unknown to you. 

Charles Wuorinen - right up there with Carter for me.











Harrison Birtwistle - British composer.






Bruno Maderna


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

There have been some excellent responses in this thread thus far, but I will only be of little help as I haven't got past the post-war avant-garde and I seem to be stuck here because there's just SO MUCH to discover.

Here are a few orchestral works that I believe you'll enjoy (if you haven't heard them already):

Scelsi: _Konx-Om-Pax_
Ligeti: _San Francisco Polyphony_
Penderecki: _Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima_
Carter: _Three Occasions for Orchestra_
Stockhausen: _Gruppen_
Kurtág: _Stele_
Xenakis: _Jonchaies_
Feldman: _Cello and Orchestra_
Boulez: _Notations for Orchestra_
Nono: _No hay caminos, hay que caminar… Andrej Tarkovskij_
Berio: _Sinfonia_
Takemitsu: _November Steps_
Lutosławski: _Jeux vénitiens_


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

haziz said:


> Shudders .........


And here I thought TC was past this sort of trite, snarky type of post on modern music threads.

Why would anyone want to purposely make such a post on a thread that they obviously have no interest in?

I just don't get it.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

This is pretty cool.....


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

...and this was bought to my attention by member @composingmusic. Such an amazing piece...


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Life's too short to waste time on the close minded and intolerant.

Back on topic...

Beat Furrer






George Perle


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I would suggest the OP explore some of the recent threads on contemporary composers by member, justekaia. There are a lot of interesting pieces uploaded in those posts. Also member SanAntone has a couple of threads on contemporary music.

As far as exploring older threads via the search engine is concerned, it's a great resource which I utilize all the time. You just have to learn to ignore any smug comments by the trollers. On a positive note many of the people guilty of this are no longer active at the forum.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

My gateway into this type of music (and I hate lumping so many different styles into one "type," but will for the sake of convenience) was the allegedly difficult Schönberg: Wind Quintet, Op. 26. I didn't try hard to understand it; I just listened in headphones while at work. For some reason it suddenly clicked, as if these instruments were having a conversation -- which they are. I now enjoy what some schools are simply calling "new music" in lieu of "classical." I used to have a site bookmarked with links to a lot of new experimental music, but have long since lost it having shorted my old computer with coffee. I need to try to find it again. "New" music is even more amazing to me than 100 year old avant garde.

[EDIT: Unfortunately putting "new music" into a search engine yield rather mundane results. ]


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## thecrackstreetboys (2 mo ago)

If I may: I used the music site in question to list artists' albums in order of popularity and average rating. With large discographies like Miles Davis' or Coltrane's, it was invaluable for sorting out how to approach them. A similar sorting process is impossible on that site with classical. Where possible, can we name as many great compositions from a composer as possible, and specific recordings as well? Having loved this recording of Ligeti's Requiem, Lontano, Continuum, for instance, I may be at an utter loss what else is worth collecting. The only place where this is easy is with Webern and Messiaen, who have popular consensus highly rated multi-disc "Complete Works" releases. In general, this has been the biggest barrier to getting into any kind of classical for me. And I'd _like _to work my way through fairly comprehensively!

Quite a lot of great stuff here already, it just frustrates my completionist nature to have no easy way to see the pieces against the big picture


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## feierlich (3 mo ago)

I'd imagine you will love Claude Vivier. His musical language is quite unique in the 20th-century context, and Ligeti called him "the most important and original composer of his generation". Here are some of his best works.

_Shiraz_ for piano
_Zipangu_ for string orchestra
_Siddhartha_ for orchestra
_Kopernikus, opéra-rituel de mort_


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

thecrackstreetboys said:


> If I may: I used the music site in question to list artists' albums in order of popularity and average rating. With large discographies like Miles Davis' or Coltrane's, it was invaluable for sorting out how to approach them. A similar sorting process is impossible on that site with classical. Where possible, can we name as many great compositions from a composer as possible, and specific recordings as well? Having loved this recording of Ligeti's Requiem, Lontano, Continuum, for instance, I may be at an utter loss what else is worth collecting. The only place where this is easy is with Webern and Messiaen, who have popular consensus highly rated multi-disc "Complete Works" releases. In general, this has been the biggest barrier to getting into any kind of classical for me. And I'd _like _to work my way through fairly comprehensively!
> 
> Quite a lot of great stuff here already, it just frustrates my completionist nature to have no easy way to see the pieces against the big picture


The sort of big picture you're looking for doesn't exist yet for music post 2000.

For the period of 40 years prior to that, things are starting to become clearer - Feldman and Cage, Dusapin and Luc Ferrari and Eliane Radigue, Sciarrino, Cardew and Ferneyhough, Lachenmann and Stockhausen and Rihm, Zorn and Oliveros -- they are all starting to emerge as very important figures, people who made interesting contributions to music.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

You mentioned microtonal music, so I have two just-intonation pieces to recommend. These pieces are the most dissonant things I've ever heard, despite not really being that dissonant, because they break what my ear has come to expect from music, particularly pianos.

Terry Riley's _The Harp of New Albion _is mostly improvised and is truly a wonderful work.

Kyle Gann's _Hyperchromatica _is more diverse, less rich, and harder to listen to, but I still love it. It was written for three computer-driven pianos. It is considered to be impossible to perform by human beings.

Choosing how you tune your scales is certainly a new frontier, or was in the mid-20th century!

Gann's web page with download links, including four movements not on the CD, and detailed explanations, all against a backdrop that makes it nigh illegible:



Kyle Gann: Hyperchromatica


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

As for Elliott Carter, don't forget his chamber music, especially the string quartets, the piano sonata, the cello sonata, and the sonata for flute, oboe, cello and harpsichord. And also essential imo is Carter's predecessor Charles Ives and his string quartets and piano sonatas. Also Edgard Varese and in addition to his Ameriques (that is for "large orchestra" and definitely not chamber music), Octandre, Ionisation and Density 21.5, and Pierre Boulez and his Notations, Sonatine for flute and piano, and Le marteau sans maitre.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions here  I like to check out things my own way and have subscribed to several newsletters from music publishers and festivals around the world. There's often interesting composers with premieres of new works. Also you need to hear Silver Apples of the Moon and Civilization Phase III  and all the "sisters with transistors", Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, Edison Denisov, Luigi Nono and a whole lot of a bunch of stuff.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions here  I like to check out things my own way and have subscribed to several newsletters from music publishers and festivals around the world. There's often interesting composers with premieres of new works. Also you need to hear Silver Apples of the Moon and Civilization Phase III  and all the "sisters with transistors", Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, Edison Denisov, Luigi Nono and a whole lot of a bunch of stuff.


Are there any web sites that champion new music? I searched TC for a very old thread I posted about a new music site, but the site is long closed down. Alternately I guess I could explore college music departments. I know the local University I used to work for commissioned new works. It was quite exciting. Now I'm having trouble reconnecting to that world.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

search "contemporary"
Sorry that I'm too lazy to find what I remember faintly, which was a thread on contemporary music with very many links to great websites...
There are YouTube channels too...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Weston said:


> . . . I now enjoy what some schools are simply calling "new music" in lieu of "classical." I used to have a site bookmarked with links to a lot of new experimental music, but have long since lost it having shorted my old computer with coffee. I need to try to find it again. "New" music is even more amazing to me than 100 year old avant garde.
> 
> [EDIT: Unfortunately putting "new music" into a search engine yield rather mundane results. ]


The video below is what I had in mind for the term "new music." I find it equal parts intriguing and annoying.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Weston said:


> My gateway into this type of music (and I hate lumping so many different styles into one "type," but will for the sake of convenience) was the allegedly difficult Schönberg: Wind Quintet, Op. 26. I didn't try hard to understand it; I just listened in headphones while at work. For some reason it suddenly clicked, as if these instruments were having a conversation -- which they are. I now enjoy what some schools are simply calling "new music" in lieu of "classical." I used to have a site bookmarked with links to a lot of new experimental music, but have long since lost it having shorted my old computer with coffee. I need to try to find it again. "New" music is even more amazing to me than 100 year old avant garde.
> 
> [EDIT: Unfortunately putting "new music" into a search engine yield rather mundane results. ]


I think you're onto something here and Schoenberg's _Wind Quintet_ is an outstanding piece! You know, when I listen to the Second Viennese School (Schoenberg, Berg, Webern but also many others associated with them like Dallapiccola and Skalkottas), I don't try and analyze it, I simply let it wash over my ears and enjoy the music from moment-to-moment. This kind of listening helped me tremendously. My gateway into this music was Berg's _Violin Concerto_ and it's still a work that frightens and delights me at the same time and I mean frightens me in the best possible sense. I think every listener needs a gateway into this kind music and if it hits you on an emotional/intellectual level, then, hopefully, this will be the catalysis that will give you the enthusiasm to continue the journey.


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## thecrackstreetboys (2 mo ago)

Carl Vine's sonatas are incredible, really a great middle ground between the far-out stuff and the "classical music" an everyday listener would be expecting


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## thecrackstreetboys (2 mo ago)

The first had the most visceral first impact on me:


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## thecrackstreetboys (2 mo ago)

No one else?


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Brian Ferneyhough: considered a central figure of the New Complexity movement.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Brian Ferneyhough


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Brian Ferneyhough


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Haydn70 said:


> Brian Ferneyhough


I think early Ferneyhough is fabulous - I just love the sense of a free creative spirit exploring new possibilities.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Haydn70 said:


> Brian Ferneyhough


It’s interesting to listen to this after the experience of Firecycle Beta, just to see if and how his music changed over the years. It’s good to have both IMO, both significant contributions to music.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> There have been some excellent responses in this thread thus far, but I will only be of little help as I haven't got past the post-war avant-garde and I seem to be stuck here because there's just SO MUCH to discover.
> 
> Here are a few orchestral works that I believe you'll enjoy (if you haven't heard them already):
> 
> ...



So many contemporary classics in this list!


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

So good to see this thread's been revived! And yes, having a more complete idea of the music post 1900 is extremely difficult given the pluralistic nature of this era. I do find having some sort of idea of historical context to be helpful, and it's fascinating to trace the threads of influence. For instance, Schoenberg taught Webern and Berg (along with so many other people) and you can see how that influenced them differently. It's also fascinating to see the evolution of the Darmstadt school through WWII – not to mention quite a few of them studied with Messiaen but came out sounding completely different! Messiaen is another influence that's interesting to trace through, and it's also fascinating to see how people like Ligeti, Stockhausen, and Scelsi influenced so many people even though they didn't teach as many people. Ligeti had students but I don't think Scelsi or Stockhausen taught. Since then, there's been a huge number of smaller movements and countermovements that have interacted in various ways.

Anyway, for some recommendations that aren't here yet:
Berg: Wozzeck, Lulu (maybe start with the suite), Altenberg Lieder, Lyric Suite, Seven Early Songs, Three Pieces for Orchestra
Schoenberg: Moses und Aaron, A Survivor from Warsaw, String Quartets, Pierrot Lunaire
Webern: Cantatas I and II, Symphony op. 21
Ligeti: Le Grand Macabre, Atmosphères, Lontano, Requiem, Piano Concerto, Continuum, Poème Symphonique, Clocks and Clouds
Ives: Concord Sonata, Central Park in the Dark, Three Places in New England, The Unanswered Question
Cowell: The Banshee, Vestiges, Rhythmicana, Aeolian Harp
Messiaen: Vingt Regards sur l'enfant-Jésus, Poèmes pour Mi, Turangalîla-Symphony, Catalogue d'oiseaux, Des Canyons aux étoiles, Saint François d'Assise, Chronochromie, Quatuor pour la fin du temps
Boulez: Le Marteau sans maître, Éclat/multiples, Répons, Pli selon pli, ...explosante-fixe...
Stockhausen: Licht, Stimmung, Irino, Gesang der Jünglinge, Kontakte, Tierkreis, Zyklus
Xenakis: Persephassa, Rebonds, Psappha, Terretektorh, Achorripsis, Keqrops
Varèse: Ionisation, Density 21.5, Octandre, Hyperprism, Arcana, Amériques
Vivier: Orion, Lonely Child, Cinq chansons pour percussion, Bouchara, Kopernikus
Babbitt: Philomel, String quartets, Melismata, Correspondances, Tableaux
Crumb: Makrokosmos, Vox Balanae, Black Angels, Star-Child, Metamorphoses
Berio: Sequenzas, Sinfonia, Folk Songs, Opera, Festum, SOLO
Dallapiccola: Il Prigioniero, Piccolo Musica Notturna, Quaderno Musicale di Annalibera, Tre Poemi per Voce e Orchestra, Dialoghi, Ulisse, An Mathilde
Maderna: Hyperion (I-IV), All the World's a Stage, Aura, Ausstralung, Oboe Concerto no. 3
Carter: Concerto for Orchestra, Double Concerto for Harpsichord and Piano, Esprit rude/esprit doux, 90+, String Quartets
Lutosławski: Jeux Vénitiens, Concerto for Orchestra, Cello Concerto, Symphonies (1-4), Livre pour Orchestre, String Quartet, Dance Preludes
Kurtág: Játékok, Stele, Triptych, Samuel Beckett: Fin de Partie, Scenes from a Novel, Double Concerto, Kafka-Fragments
Janáček: Sinfonietta, The Cunning Little Vixen, Káťa Kabanová, Jenůfa, Glagolitic Mass, String Quartets (2)
Henri (Pierre): Orphée 53, Variations pour une porte et un soupir, La Dixième Symphonie, Intérieur/Extérieur, Symphonie pour un homme seul (collaboration with Pierre Schaeffer)
Schaeffer: Cinq études de bruits, Etude aux objets, Etude aux allures, Etude aux sons animés
Ferrari (Luc): Presque rien (1-4), Interrupteur, Tautologos III (I and II also, but these are much earlier), Cycle des souvenirs – Exploitation des concepts 1 and 2, Far-West news episodes 1, 2, 3, J'ai été coupé, Chantal, or the portrait of a villager
Grisey: Quatre Chants pour franchir le seuil, Les espaces acoustiques, Vortex Temporum, Tempus ex machina, Les chants de l'amour, Talea
Murail: Gondwana, Winter Fragments, Lachrymae, Le Rossignol en amour, Territoires de l'oubli, La Vallée close
Hurel: Loops I-III, Interstices, Localized corrosion, Aura, Tour à tour III, La célébration des invisible, Plein-jeu, Hors-jeu, Espèces d'espaces
Dutilleux: Métaboles, Tout a monde lontain, L'Arbre des songes, Symphony No. 2, Ainsi la nuit, Les citations, Le temps l'horloge, Piano Sonata
Fineberg: Veils, La Quintina, Counterfactual - hommage à Scelsi, ...a ripple-ringed pool..., Origins, Grisaille, Shards, Empreintes, Lolita
Saariaho: Lichtbogen, L'Amour de Loin, Orion, Laterna Magica, NoaNoa, Sept Papillons, Trans, Innocence
Bedrossian: Tracés d’ombres, Lamento, Division, Bossa Nova, Propaganda, EPIGRAM, ITSELF
Furrer: FAMA, Chiaroscuro, _PHAOS_, Illuminations, Xenos I-III, APOKLISIS, Frau Nachtigall, Phasma, Enigma I-VII
Lachenmann: String Quartet no. 3, My Melodies, Air, Guero, Gran Torso, Zwei Studien (for violin), Allegro sostenuto, Double (Grido II)
Shostakovich: Symphonies, Cello Concertos 1-2, The Nose, String Quartets, 24 Preludes and Fugues
Gubaidulina: In Tempus Praesens, Glorious Percussion, Canticle of the Sun, The Light of the End, Offertorium, Sonatina (for flute), String Quartets 1-3, Chaconne
Ustvolskaya: Piano Sonatas 1-6, Symphonies 1-5, Symphonic Poems 1 and 2, Duet for Piano and Violin
Lucier: I Am Sitting in a Room, North American Time Capsule, Crossings, Love Song, Music on a Long Thin Wire, Vespers
Feldman: The Viola in my Life (IV is for viola and orchestra), Piece for Four Pianos, Coptic Light, The Straights of Magellan, For Christian Wolff, For Samuel Beckett, Rothko Chapel, Madame Press Died Last Week at Ninety
Young (La Monte): Dream House, The Young Prime Time Twins, The Prime Time Twins, Trio for Strings (there are multiple versions), Annod, The Well-Tuned Piano, The Four Dreams of China
Tenney: Forms 1-4, Pika-Don, Arbor Vitæ, Having Never Written a Note for Percussion, Harmonium, Spectral CANON for CONLON Nancarrow, Changes
Cage: Songbooks, 4'33", Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano, Music of Changes, Freeman Etudes, Etudes Australis, Musicircus, Child of Tree, Imaginary Landscape no. 1-5, The Ten Thousand Things
Rădulescu: Piano Sonatas 1-6, Byzantine Prayer, String Quartets 1-6, Clepsydra, Awakening Infinity
Scelsi: Anahit, Quattro pezzi su una nota sola, Okanagon, Uaxuctum, Tre Canti Sacri
Haas (G.F.): Limited Approximations, In vein, Morgen und Abend, String Quartets 1-11, Hyperion, Joshua Tree
Eötvös: DoReMi, Psychokosmos, Harakiri, Psy, Shadows, Octet Plus, Lisztomania
Abrahamsen: let me tell you; Left, alone; The Snow Queen, String Quartets 1-4, Schnee, Winternacht, Stratifications
Penderecki: Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima, Symphonies 1-8, De Natura Sonoris 1-3, Anaklasis, The Devils of Loudun, Ubu Rex, Capriccio for Oboe and 11 Strings, Clarinet Concerto
Takemitsu: Rain Tree Sketch I and II, Rain Spell, A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden, Twill by Twilight, Spirit Garden, Visions, Toward the Sea I, II, and III
Glass: Akhenaten, The Fall of the House of Usher, String Quartets 1-8, Bent, Dracula, Play, Symphonies 1-14, Overture 2012, Alice, Glassworks, Music in Fifths, Music in Parallel Motion,
Reich: Clapping Music, Electric Counterpoint, Music for 18 Musicians, The Cave, Different Trains, Music for Ensemble and Orchestra, Piano Phase
Riley: In C, A Rainbow in Curved Air, Happy Ending, Shri Camel, Chanting the Light of Foresight, Sun Rings, Lifespan
Adams: Doctor Atomic, Nixon in China, Short Ride in a Fast Machine, The Dharma at Big Sur, Chamber Symphony, China Gates, Phrygian Gates, Shaker Loops
Andriessen: Workers' Union, Hoketus, De Tijd, La Passione, La Girò, Agamemnon, The Only One
Finnissy: The History of Photography in Sound, Piano Concertos 1-4, English Country Tunes, Gershwin Transcriptions, Verdi Transcriptions, Greatest Hits of All Time
Ferneyhough: String Quartets 1-6, Lemma-Icon-Epigram, Cassandra's Dream Song, Bone Alphabet, Transit, Shadowtime, La Terre est un Homme, Plötzlichkeit
Dillon: Tanz/Haus: triptych_, _Philomela, Stabat Mater Dolorosa, Pharmakeia, The Book of Elements 1-5, The Louth Work: Orphic Fragments
Birtwistle: Earth Dances, Deep Time, The Cry of Anubis, Pulse Shadows, Five Distances for Five Instruments, Carmen Arcadia Mechanicae Perpetuum
Knussen: Whitman Settings, Requiem: Songs for Sue, Ophelia Dances, Ophelia's Last Dance, O Hototogisu!, Where the Wild Things Are, Higglety Pigglety Pop!, Horn Concerto, Symphony no. 3, Flourish with Fireworks
Benjamin: Written on Skin, Dream of the Song, Lessons in Love and Violence, Concerto for Orchestra, Dance Figures, Piano Figures; Viola, Viola; Palimpsests, Into the Little Hill, At First Light, Antara
Anderson: Khovorod, Symphony No. 2: Prague Panoramas, Litanies, Thebans, The Book of Hours, Alhambra Fantasy, Imagin'd Corners, String Quartets 1-3
Adès: Asyla, In Seven Days, Dante, Polaris, Piano Concerto, Tempest, Powder Her Face, The Exterminating Angel
Rautavaara: Cantus Arcticus, Symphonies 1-8, Aleksis Kivi, Rasputin, Cello Concertos 1-2, Piano Concertos 1-3, Fantasia, Deux Sérénades, A Tapestry of Life, Narcissus, Mirroring
Lindberg: Clarinet Concerto, Kraft, Piano concertos 1-3, Jubilees (there's a piano piece and an ensemble piece with this title), Sculpture, Dos Coyotes, Trio for clarinet, cello, and piano; Mano a mano
Fagerlund: Water Atlas, Autumn Sonata, Drifts, Nomade, Transient Light, Mana, Clarinet Concerto
Wennäkoski: Flounce, Hava, Culla d'alba, Le Miroir Courbe, Soie, Amor
Aho: Symphonies 1-17, The Book of Secrets, Sieidi, Louhi, Horn Concerto, Double Concerto for Flute and Harp, Double Concerto for Violin and Cello
Adams (John Luther): Become Ocean, Sila, Across the Distance, Arctic Dreams, Become Desert


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

thecrackstreetboys said:


> No one else?


You've been given a lot of examples.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Did someone mention Xenakis , must be right up your alley .


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

composingmusic said:


> So good to see this thread's been revived! And yes, having a more complete idea of the music post 1900 is extremely difficult given the pluralistic nature of this era. I do find having some sort of idea of historical context to be helpful, and it's fascinating to trace the threads of influence. For instance, Schoenberg taught Webern and Berg (along with so many other people) and you can see how that influenced them differently. It's also fascinating to see the evolution of the Darmstadt school through WWII – not to mention quite a few of them studied with Messiaen but came out sounding completely different! Messiaen is another influence that's interesting to trace through, and it's also fascinating to see how people like Ligeti, Stockhausen, and Scelsi influenced so many people even though they didn't teach as many people. Ligeti had students but I don't think Scelsi or Stockhausen taught. Since then, there's been a huge number of smaller movements and countermovements that have interacted in various ways.
> 
> Anyway, for some recommendations that aren't here yet:
> Berg: Wozzeck, Lulu (maybe start with the suite), Altenberg Lieder, Lyric Suite, Seven Early Songs, Three Pieces for Orchestra
> ...


I just wanted to say thanks for this list, which is looking very informed. I hope you’ll have a chance to finish it.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> I just wanted to say thanks for this list, which is looking very informed. I hope you’ll have a chance to finish it.


Thank you! I've added a few more this morning – will ping you once it's done!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

composingmusic said:


> Thank you! I've added a few more this morning – will ping you once it's done!



I's fun to see the first composer in the lists, because I'm guessing they're the pieces which came to mind for you straight way. Stockhausen begins with Licht and Cage begins with the Song Books. I think they're really good choices actually (well, maybe not the whole of Licht . . . .) I've been exploring your Maderna recommedations with great pleasure -- I haven't heard much of his music before -- just the quartets and Quadrivium I think.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> I's fun to see the first composer in the lists, because I'm guessing they're the pieces which came to mind for you straight way. Stockhausen begins with Licht and Cage begins with the Song Books. I think they're really good choices actually (well, maybe not the whole of Licht . . . .) I've been exploring your Maderna recommedations with great pleasure -- I haven't heard much of his music before -- just the quartets and Quadrivium I think.


Thank you! He's really quite a fascinating figure – also quite an important conductor as well. And yes, the list usually starts with the first piece that comes to mind. I've taken part in a performance of the song books, and I've heard some of Licht in live performances, so both of those really made an impression on me.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> The sort of big picture you're looking for doesn't exist yet for music post 2000.
> 
> For the period of 40 years prior to that, things are starting to become clearer - Feldman and Cage, Dusapin and Luc Ferrari and Eliane Radigue, Sciarrino, Cardew and Ferneyhough, Lachenmann and Stockhausen and Rihm, Zorn and Oliveros -- they are all starting to emerge as very important figures, people who made interesting contributions to music.


Mandryka, what pieces can you recommend by Rihm? He's written a huge amount of music over the years. I collected about a half dozen CDs a decade ago but became disillusioned with most of it. A lot of very complex and dynamic music that seems to pull me in every direction but doesn't really say anything or move me as a listener. I never could detect a personal voice coming through the music. But maybe I haven't listened to his best stuff?


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

starthrower said:


> Mandryka, what pieces can you recommend by Rihm? He's written a huge amount of music over the years. I collected about a half dozen CDs a decade ago but became disillusioned with most of it. A lot of very complex and dynamic music that seems to pull me in every direction but doesn't really say anything or move me as a listener. I never could detect a personal voice coming through the music. But maybe I haven't listened to his best stuff?


Have you heard Jagden und Formen? That's a relatively recent piece and to me it feels quite personal – in a way it's quite strange, because it contains several other earlier works that are reworked into a much larger totality.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I should also mention that there's a few versions of Jagden und Formen, the earlier dating from 2001 and the latter from 2008...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

composingmusic said:


> Have you heard Jagden und Formen? That's a relatively recent piece and to me it feels quite personal – in a way it's quite strange, because it contains several other earlier works that are reworked into a much larger totality.


I listened to it many years ago. I'd have to give it a fresh spin. But of the significant composers working from 1960-2000, Rihm wouldn't be on my list. It would be Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Takemitsu, Dutilleux, Carter, Messiaen, Penderecki, and several others.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Deleted


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

starthrower said:


> I listened to it many years ago. I'd have to give it a fresh spin. But of the significant composers working from 1960-2000, Rihm wouldn't be on my list. It would be Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Takemitsu, Dutilleux, Carter, Messiaen, Penderecki, and several others.


Fair enough, I suppose. Penderecki is the most recent from this list – anyone currently living that you'd consider alongside these names?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Mandryka, what pieces can you recommend by Rihm?



The Netherlands Trio recording of Music for Three Stringed Instruments is the thing which has caught my imagination most recently.

Apart from that, I remember thinking these things were my cup of tea


Klangbeschreibung II
Blick auf Kolchis
Gesänge op 1 (on an MDG CD called _August Stramm_)
Kein Firmament
Jakob Lenz (there's a DVD of the opera)
Anlitz
Fremde Szenen
Mivos Quartet performance of Quartettstudie
Epilog
Akt und Tag (on Donaueschenger Musiktage 2006 -- which is a nice CD)
Hölderlin-Fragmente with piano
Das Rot -- I think generally the lieder with piano are very enjoyable, tell me if this sort of music interests you and I'll think about some more things which interest me.
Tutuguri (Beware -- this is a bit like recommending the whole of Klang!)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

composingmusic said:


> Fair enough, I suppose. Penderecki is the most recent from this list – anyone currently living that you'd consider alongside these names?


I like a number of Saariaho pieces. Gubaidulina, Norgard, York Holler, Murail, Adriana Holsky. Peter Eötvös. Eötvös has composed a large amount of music but I have just one CD called Gliding that contains four works. I've tried getting into Kurtag but so far I haven't really warmed to any pieces in particular. I also like Unsuk Chin's string quartet which I featured in the weekly Quartet thread a month ago. You can go to the first page of that thread for the contents of every quartet featured which are all linked to the pages covering each work where you will find YouTube links.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

starthrower said:


> I like a number of Saariaho pieces. Gubaidulina, Norgard, York Holler, Murail, Adriana Holsky. Peter Eötvös. Eötvös has composed a large amount of music but I have just on CD called Gliding that contains four works. I've tried getting into Kurtag but so far I haven't really warmed to any pieces in particular. I also like Unsuk Chin's string quartet which I featured in the weekly Quartet thread a month ago. You can go to the first page of that thread for the contents of every quartet featured which are all linked to the pages covering each work where you will find YouTube links.


Ah, that makes sense. I think out of the ones you've just quoted, I particularly enjoy Saariaho, Gubaidulina, and Murail, though the rest are excellent as well. Eötvös and Kurtág are quite interesting as well, and Nørgård does some really interesting things with harmony in particular – are you familiar with the infinity series?


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> The Netherlands Trio recording of Music for Three Stringed Instruments is the thing which has caught my imagination most recently.
> 
> Apart from that, I remember thinking these things were my cup of tea
> 
> ...


Great list!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

composingmusic said:


> Ah, that makes sense. I think out of the ones you've just quoted, I particularly enjoy Saariaho, Gubaidulina, and Murail, though the rest are excellent as well. Eötvös and Kurtág are quite interesting as well, and Nørgård does some really interesting things with harmony in particular – are you familiar with the infinity series?


I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is? I have no training in composition but I do have the Dacapo CD featuring Voyage Into The Golden Screen.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> I just wanted to say thanks for this list, which is looking very informed. I hope you’ll have a chance to finish it.


I've just finished at least the entries that I initially outlined, but of course this by no means has all the composers that could (or should) be on there!


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

starthrower said:


> I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is? I have no training in composition but I do have the Dacapo CD featuring Voyage Into The Golden Screen.


It's essentially an interval sequence that's centred around a middle pitch – you get increasing intervals that move away from this pitch. Here is a more detailed explanation: Per Nørgård's Infinity Series — Lawton Hall


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm listening now and I find this piece very attractive and interesting. I'm very curious to hear what follows in the 2nd movement.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

composingmusic said:


> Great list!


Yes! Thanks, Mandryka! I'll make an effort to listen to some of these pieces.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

thecrackstreetboys said:


> So, I'm an avant-music freak who loves stuff like Trout Mask Replica - an album where the instruments spend most of the time playing in entirely different keys, not to mention different rhythms. As this stuff has grown on me, it's evolved like a drug habit or a porn addiction where the less experimental stuff I used to listen to just doesn't do it for me anymore. The feeling I would compare it to is a splash of cold water to the face or a cup of black coffee or spicy food - though I understand music theory pretty well, there's nothing "intellectual" about it. It's endorphins and adrenaline rush. If you know that face puppies make when a sound confuses them and they tilt their head sideways to perk their ear up, that's the emotion I think of when I try to put a finger on what I want music to make me feel. What others might interpret as a "lack of understanding" I interpret as room for intrigue and curiosity.
> 
> So I've been listening to quite a bit of microtonal music, free improv and free jazz, Indonesian Gamelan as well as modern creative / free jazz that fused with Gamelan (Anthony Davis' Episteme), and modern classical as well. I've reached the point where less than half a dozen metal artists do anything for me anymore because it seems to me even the heaviest extreme metal bands don't get as edgy as the extremes of jazz and classical do. (And Luc Lemay, of Gorguts, who put out some of the most complex and original death metal ever made, had classical training too.)
> 
> ...


just for your info i just released an up to date extensive list of contemporary composers on the thread "best contemporary composers" that you will find in the main classical discussion section of TC; the classical contemporary composers like carter and xenakis are in there but you will also find very young composers from nearly all parts of the world


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

justekaia said:


> just for your info i just released an up to date extensive list of contemporary composers on the thread "best contemporary composers" that you will find in the main classical discussion section of TC; the classical contemporary composers like carter and xenakis are in there but you will also find very young composers from nearly all parts of the world


Yes, that’s a great thread with some really good recommendations. I’ve added some piece recommendations here too, in this thread – if it’s useful I could link directly to that comment. 

Something I find particularly interesting when going through this repertoire is tracing influences and relationships between people – it adds another dimension to see how the music of this era has evolved and is evolving, simultaneously, in many


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Been listening to this cello quintet this evening. I kind of think that it’s a real impressive bit of music. The sense of flow, the changes of energy, the instrumental effects, the way it’s never formulaic - and all achieved with a conventional classical music framework. No non standard instrumental effects, all determinate etc.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't have Spotify but I tapped on the link and hit play and some other music is playing. I went to YouTube and found the Wergo CD but it won't play in my country.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

A lot of great music mentioned in this post. I see so many favorites, from Xenakis and Penderecki and George Crumb ...

I just want to add: the German label NEOS is probably the strongest current source for new "classical" music. One of its primary features is the annual addition from the Donaueschinger Musiktage, a "new music" festival held yearly in the town of Donauschingen in southwest Germany. There are several decades worth of the music from this festival; the older recordings are on the col legno label. I suggest anyone interested in the latest in contemporary "classical" or "serious" music take a look at the NEOS catalog.

Another label with interesting contemporary offerings is hat[now]ART which has several dozen CDs in its distinctive minimalist packaging. A look for "hat[now]ART" on Discogs will give you a good idea of what is available from this source. You won't find much of this music anywhere else. I'm happy to have some 50 or so of the recordings in my collection.

The jazz sibling to hat[now]ART is the label hatOLOGY, with hundreds of titles of contemporary jazz, much of it in the "free jazz"/improvisational category. The production is always top notch, the sound quality stellar. And the "new music" factor high.

A recent collection of multi-disc box sets (well over 40 to date) of (largely) modern "free jazz" is available on The Complete Remastered Recordings on Black Saint & Soul Note. This music will not disappoint the adventurous "seekers of new and novel sounds". It's a shame, though, that such box sets of "free jazz" can be so "not free" in price. Still, I've collected the entire series, and I wouldn't want to be without it. Again, the collection can be viewed at Discogs.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

The ten composers i would advise you to look into are: Iannis Xenakis, Francis Dhomont, Alvin Lucier, Kaija Saariaho, Denis Smalley, Alberto Posadas, G.F.Haas, J.L. Adams, Randy Gibson


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> A lot of great music mentioned in this post. I see so many favorites, from Xenakis and Penderecki and George Crumb ...
> 
> I just want to add: the German label NEOS is probably the strongest current source for new "classical" music. One of its primary features is the annual addition from the Donaueschinger Musiktage, a "new music" festival held yearly in the town of Donauschingen in southwest Germany. There are several decades worth of the music from this festival; the older recordings are on the col legno label. I suggest anyone interested in the latest in contemporary "classical" or "serious" music take a look at the NEOS catalog.
> 
> ...


I have some great stuff on those labels including the Darmstadt Aural Documents Vol.1 on NEOS. And a couple of the Bruno Maderna volumes. Most of those Black Saint/Soul Note jazz boxes are now out of print but I collected 14 of them several years ago.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I don't have Spotify but I tapped on the link and hit play and some other music is playing. I went to YouTube and found the Wergo CD but it won't play in my country.







Try this, Uber die linie vi, which I’ve only just found myself and I think it’s beautiful


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## thecrackstreetboys (2 mo ago)

Just finished replaying my collection from Ives and Carter. I don't think you can talk about Ives without Symphony 4. Wikipedia: "The symphony is notable for its multilayered complexity—typically requiring two conductors in performance—and for its large and varied orchestration. Combining elements and techniques of Ives's previous compositional work, this has been called "one of his most definitive works";[1] Ives' biographer, Jan Swafford, has called it "Ives's climactic masterpiece".[2]"


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