# SS 13.07.13 - Beethoven #9



## Bix

*Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)*

Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125

1. Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

2. Scherzo: Molto vivace - Presto

3. Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato - Tempo primo - Andante moderato - Adagio - Lo stesso tempo

4. Recitative: (Presto - Allegro ma non troppo - Vivace - Adagio cantabile - Allegro assai - Presto: O Freunde) - Allegro molto assai: Freude, schöner Götterfunken - Alla marcia - Allegro assai vivace: Froh, wie seine Sonnen - Andante maestoso: Seid umschlungen, Millionen! - Adagio ma non troppo, ma divoto: Ihr, stürzt nieder - Allegro energico, sempre ben marcato: (Freude, schöner Götterfunken - Seid umschlungen, Millionen!) - Allegro ma non tanto: Freude, Tochter aus Elysium! - Prestissimo, Maestoso, Molto prestissimo: Seid umschlungen, Millionen!

--------------------------------

Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


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## Bix

I'm going for the classic option and listening to the following 1983 recording:

Herbert von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker

The Wiener Singverein with Helmuth Froschauer

Soloists:
Janet Perry, soprano
Agnes Baltsa, contralto
Vinson COle, tenor
Jose van Dam, baritone


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## Mahlerian

I'll be listening to Berlin Philharmonic, Andre Cluytens. Soloists are Gre Brouwenstijn, Kerstin Meyer, Nicolai Gedda, and Frederick Guthrie.


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## realdealblues

I'll be listening to:

Rafael Kubelik with the Bavarian Radio Symphony & Bavarian Radio Chorus

Thomas Stewart - Bass
Wieslaw Ochman - Tenor
Helen Donath - Soprano
Teresa Berganza - Contralto


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## Guest

I'm going to sorta follow along in the interest of learning more about the music, but I don't think I'm qualified, nor do I have the mental energy at the moment, to provide in-depth commentary...so I urge someone else to listen to my version  but I'll be listening to Ferenc Fricsay conduct the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra tomorrow nevertheless.


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## realdealblues

arcaneholocaust said:


> I'm going to sorta follow along in the interest of learning more about the music, but I don't think I'm qualified, nor do I have the mental energy at the moment, to provide in-depth commentary...so I urge someone else to listen to my version  but I'll be listening to Ferenc Fricsay conduct the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra tomorrow nevertheless.


I wouldn't worry about an in-depth commentary. I would just write what you liked and/or didn't like about that recording.


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## Bix

arcaneholocaust said:


> I'm going to sorta follow along in the interest of learning more about the music, but I don't think I'm qualified, nor do I have the mental energy at the moment, to provide in-depth commentary...so I urge someone else to listen to my version  but I'll be listening to Ferenc Fricsay conduct the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra tomorrow nevertheless.


As realdealblues said - just a sentence will do


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## Manxfeeder

That's a hard one. I'd say Furtwangler, March 1942, but I listen to that a lot.

I'll go with George Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra.
Adele Addison, Jane Hobson, Richard Lewis, Donald Bell

The french horns are very prominent in the last movement - probably more than they're supposed to be, according to Igor at Tower Records, who sold it to me back in the day - but I really like french horns.


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## DavidA

Karajan 1977 is the best all round for me.

Klemperer is a slow climb to the summit but really fine.

Toscanini is classic but ill recorded.

Chailly is the best recorded of the lot, but too relentless for my liking.


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## moody

Bix said:


> I'm going for the classic option and listening to the following 1983 recording:
> 
> Herbert von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker
> 
> The Wiener Singverein with Helmuth Froschauer
> 
> Soloists:
> Janet Perry, soprano
> Agnes Baltsa, contralto
> Vinson COle, tenor
> Jose van Dam, baritone


Oh no! and I was really getting to like you.


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## Bix

moody said:


> Oh no! and I was really getting to like you.


Shall I go for something different, I've got a number of others? Anyway, which one are you going to listen to?

Anyway I'm sticking to my sticky buns..... Not changing my choice, I'm being moody.


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## moody

You are going to get the usual whinging about sound quality by people who apparently can't translate old sound into modern sound mentally.
One does not listen to Toscanini or Furtwaengler for sound quality,after all there are many dreadful conductors making great hi-fi recordings.
I have so many versions and the 1942 Furtwaengler and the Szell have been mentioned.
So :
Paris Conservatoire Orchestra. cond: Carl Schuricht ,with the Elisabeth BrasseurChorale.
Wilma Lipp,sop. Marga Hoeffgen,cont.Murray Dickie ,ten. Gottlob Frick,bass.
White hot.

Chorus and Orchestra of Radio Danmark. cond. Fritz Busch. Live 1950. A huge and grand effort.
Soloists will probably mean nothing to most members.

Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, cond. William Steinberg. with the Mendelssohn Choir of Pittsburgh.
once again not particularly well known soloists. Very fine recording and as usual with this conductor a first class performance. Importantly this is the Mahler Edition.


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## Bix

moody said:


> You are going to get the usual whinging about sound quality by people who apparently can't translate old sound into modern sound mentally.


One loves old sound, what. If people wanna whinge about it then you will have to put your w-filter on - I can provide one for a shilling.


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## moody

Bix said:


> One loves old sound, what. If people wanna whinge about it then you will have to put your w-filter on - I can provide one for a shilling.


A shilling,good gracious !


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## Bix

moody said:


> Soloists will probably mean nothing to most members.


I know of Frick - very good O Isis und Osiris


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## moody

Bix said:


> I know of Frick - very good O Isis und Osiris


The blackest bass ever.


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## MagneticGhost

Roger Norrington - London Classical Players 1987-1989
Sarah Walker - Patrick Power - Petteri Palomaa - Schutz Choir of London


Tomorrow y'all


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## Mahlerian

moody said:


> Chorus and Orchestra of Radio Danmark. cond. Fritz Busch. Live 1950. A huge and grand effort.
> Soloists will probably mean nothing to most members.


I too know Frick and his exceptionally profound _basso profundo_.


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## Wood

I don't think anyone has gone with JEG yet, so I will.


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## FLighT

Well, there’s certainly many 9ths to choose from. Comparing some of the ones I have:

Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Norrington, and Hogwood are on period instruments (mostly) played the way they believe the instruments were played at the time and the tempos used. For me personally, I want more blood, emotion, energy, excitement.

I wanted to like Reiner and Muti but Reiner stretched some phrasing of passages in a way I didn't like screwing up the forward momentum, especially in the first movement. Extremely strange for him. Muti's sound and interpretation had too soft an edge to it and the sound lacked immediacy as well.

I grew up with Toscanini and Stokowski. Toscanini conducts the first movement like an opera overture, it leaves me out breath, but it is interesting, none the less, to see how quickly this movement can be played. Overall it is a good one.

I haven't heard the Stoki since I was a kid and don’t have a copy on CD. I also recall an interesting one, if memory serves me, by Cluytens and maybe another by Rene Liebowitz.

There are also over a hundred other performances by over a hundred other conductors, some doing it as many as 3 times. Karajan’s first one, on EMI I think, I remember was another I liked.

Drum Roll Please!

My (not necessarily your) 2 desert island must haves for the B9.

Solti, Chicago S) and SC, 1972. His timings are longer than just anyone else's I’m familiar with yet the work never sounds slow. I don't know how he does it. The sound is first class, full rich bass, slightly forward mid-range adding a nice palpable sense of weight or heft to the sound (typical for DECCA/LONDON recordings). Plenty of excitement and drama. The sense of immediacy of being in the recording hall is there as well. Superb soloists: Lorengar, Minton, Burrows, and Talvela. The fuller bass range on occasion does slightly (and I mean very slightly) make some subtler details harder to hear. The chorus is not as tight as in my final choice but they get better as they go along and have no other rival, for me personally, except for my final choice. 

Ta-Da! "My survey said..." Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt with the Vienna Philharmonic and Vienna State Opera Chorus recorded in the Sofiensaal, Vienna in December 1965 on Decca. The soloists are all superb again (Sutherland, Horne, King, and it's not for nothing that Martti Talvela is the Bass soloist in both this and the Solti recording, he was at the peak of his singing prowess. Why this version? Though not always a guarantee of success what we have here is a German born and schooled conductor performing the music of a German born and schooled composer who moved to Vienna in his early 20's and lived there till he died and in between created some of music's most enduring works. Now to this we add a Viennese orchestra and chorus (singing in their native language) and perform and record this music in a concert hall built 2 years after the first performance of the Ninth. Add in the performing traditions handed down from one generation of orchestra and chorus members to the next over the following 140 years from the date of the first performance to when this recording was made. Again, these factors while not necessarily a guarantee of success seem to jell nicely this time.

I can hear subtle details of phrasing and inner voicing of the various instrumental groups far better than in any other recording, like I'm placed into the score itself, nothing gets missed or glossed over, or covered up. S-I and the recording engineers got the balances just right to my ears. While not as dynamically recorded as the Solti this one rewards me with notes I've never heard as clearly in other recording for one reason or another. Some of the most subtle timpani strikes and horn notes come through. The chorus diction and ensemble is clear as a bell and all tightly together on cues. 

Again the soloists in both recordings were all "on" the day of both recordings. If I were to state I preferred one quartet over the other I'd be lying. When either group of soloists reach for the final high notes at the end of their second entrance, before the end of the work, I am astounded. And comparing the two recordings of this particular moment is a treat. Talvela's voice is a touch clearer in diction in his opening statement here than for Solti but this could be because of the differences in recording location, equipment used and techniques, etc., etc. I've never heard the words sung by the chorus this clearly (Vienna) in any other recording.

I wouldn't want to be without either of these.

Thank you for your time and patience. And forgive me, I’ve had too much coffee today.


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## moody

hayd said:


> I don't think anyone has gone with JEG yet, so I will.


Well I suppose somebody would have to out of pity.


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## moody

FLighT said:


> Well, there's certainly many 9ths to choose from. Comparing some of the ones I have:
> 
> Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Norrington, and Hogwood are on period instruments (mostly) played the way they believe the instruments were played at the time and the tempos used. For me personally, I want more blood, emotion, energy, excitement.
> 
> I wanted to like Reiner and Muti but Reiner stretched some phrasing of passages in a way I didn't like screwing up the forward momentum, especially in the first movement. Extremely strange for him. Muti's sound and interpretation had too soft an edge to it and the sound lacked immediacy as well.
> 
> I grew up with Toscanini and Stokowski. Toscanini conducts the first movement like an opera overture, it leaves me out breath, but it is interesting, none the less, to see how quickly this movement can be played. Overall it is a good one.
> 
> I haven't heard the Stoki since I was a kid and don't have a copy on CD. I also recall an interesting one, if memory serves me, by Cluytens and maybe another by Rene Liebowitz.
> 
> There are also over a hundred other performances by over a hundred other conductors, some doing it as many as 3 times. Karajan's first one, on EMI I think, I remember was another I liked.
> 
> Drum Roll Please!
> 
> My (not necessarily your) 2 desert island must haves for the B9.
> 
> Solti, Chicago, 1972. His timings are longer than just anyone else's I'm familiar with yet the work never sounds slow. I don't know how he does it. The sound is first class, full rich bass, slightly forward mid-range adding a nice palpable sense of weight or heft to the sound (typical for DECCA/LONDON recordings). Plenty of excitement and drama. The sense of immediacy of being in the recording hall is there as well. Superb soloists: Lorengar, Minton, Burrows, and Talvela. The fuller bass range on occasion does slightly (and I mean very slightly) make some subtler details harder to hear. The chorus is not as tight as in my final choice but they get better as they go along and have no other rival, for me personally, except for my final choice.
> 
> Ta-Da! "My survey said..." Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt with the Vienna Philharmonic and Vienna State Opera Chorus recorded in the Sofiensaal, Vienna in December 1965 on Decca. The soloists are all superb again (Sutherland, Horne, King, and it's not for nothing that Martti Talvela is the Bass soloist in both this and the Solti recording, he was at the peak of his singing prowess. Why this version? Though not always a guarantee of success what we have here is a German born and schooled conductor performing the music of a German born and schooled composer who moved to Vienna in his early 20's and lived there till he died and in between created some of music's most enduring works. Now to this we add a Viennese orchestra and chorus (singing in their native language) and perform and record this music in a concert hall built 2 years after the first performance of the Ninth. Add in the performing traditions handed down from one generation of orchestra and chorus members to the next over the following 140 years from the date of the first performance to when this recording was made. Again, these factors while not necessarily a guarantee of success seem to jell nicely this time.
> 
> I can hear subtle details of phrasing and inner voicing of the various instrumental groups far better than in any other recording, like I'm placed into the score itself, nothing gets missed or glossed over, or covered up. S-I and the recording engineers got the balances just right to my ears. While not as dynamically recorded as the Solti this one rewards me with notes I've never heard as clearly in other recording for one reason or another. Some of the most subtle timpani strikes and horn notes come through. The chorus diction and ensemble is clear as a bell and all tightly together on cues.
> 
> Again the soloists in both recordings were all "on" the day of both recordings. If I were to state I preferred one quartet over the other I'd be lying. When either group of soloists reach for the final high notes at the end of their second entrance, before the end of the work, I am astounded. And comparing the two recordings of this particular moment is a treat. Talvela's voice is a touch clearer in diction in his opening statement here than for Solti but this could be because of the differences in recording location, equipment used and techniques, etc., etc. I've never heard the words sung by the chorus this clearly (Vienna) in any other recording.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be without either of these.
> 
> Thank you for your time and patience. And forgive me, I've had too much coffee today.


Yes, it was good of you to be so brief.


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## Feathers

I'll join! 

I'm going to be listening to:

Harnoncourt with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe

Charlotte Margiono, soprano
Birgit Remmert, contralto
Rudolf Schasching, tenor
Robert Holl, bass
Arnold Schoenberg Choir


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## Ukko

I'll be working an 11 hour day tomorrow, but the 9th will be a good head-clearer in the evening. I'll go with my recording of the Mahler edition, by whoever the hell it is whose recording I have.


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> I'll be working an 11 hour day tomorrow, but the 9th will be a good head-clearer in the evening. I'll go with my recording of the Mahler edition, by whoever the hell it is whose recording I have.


Do pace yourself,we want no collapse of stout party !


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## DavidA

moody said:


> You are going to get the usual whinging about sound quality by people who apparently can't translate old sound into modern sound mentally.
> One does not listen to Toscanini or Furtwaengler for sound quality,after all there are many dreadful conductors making great hi-fi recordings.
> I have so many versions and the 1942 Furtwaengler and the Szell have been mentioned.
> So :
> Paris Conservatoire Orchestra. cond: Carl Schuricht ,with the Elisabeth BrasseurChorale.
> Wilma Lipp,sop. Marga Hoeffgen,cont.Murray Dickie ,ten. Gottlob Frick,bass.
> White hot.
> 
> Chorus and Orchestra of Radio Danmark. cond. Fritz Busch. Live 1950. A huge and grand effort.
> Soloists will probably mean nothing to most members.
> 
> Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, cond. William Steinberg. with the Mendelssohn Choir of Pittsburgh.
> once again not particularly well known soloists. Very fine recording and as usual with this conductor a first class performance. Importantly this is the Mahler Edition.


I must say that I think old recordings start with a disadvantage for me because of sound quality. I have the Toscanini cycle but the sound detracts from the performances. And this is surely a case of using your ears! For me the sound quality must be at least acceptable.

Interesting you should talk about Schuritch. A friend of mine had that performance on HMV when I started collecting records more than 50 years ago. I certainly wouldn't describe it as 'white hot'. And the Paris orchestral playing of the day left something to be desired. When my friend saved up for Karajan 63 we both agreed how vastly superior it was, in sound quality, orchestral playing and interpretation.

I must confess that I wonder sometimes whether the preference for old recordings is based on nostalgia? But then Karajan 63 was recorded 50 years ago! But what advances in engineering had been made since Toscanini.


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## MagneticGhost

MagneticGhost said:


> Roger Norrington - London Classical Players 1987-1989
> Sarah Walker - Patrick Power - Petteri Palomaa - Schutz Choir of London
> 
> Tomorrow y'all


Well there's a thing. I was only listening to this cycle on Spotify last week and it seems to have been removed.
The only one I own is Karajan from the 80's - so I've searched through the Spotibilities and have decided to listen to 
Christopher Hogwood. Academy of Ancient Music - Arleen Augur - Catherine Robbin - Anthony Rolfe Johnson - Gregory Reinhart.


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## Wood

moody said:


> Well I suppose somebody would have to out of pity.


I'm busy today, it's the only one I've time for!


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## Bix

MagneticGhost said:


> Well there's a thing. I was only listening to this cycle on Spotify last week and it seems to have been removed.
> The only one I own is Karajan from the 80's - so I've searched through the Spotibilities and have decided to listen to
> Christopher Hogwood. Academy of Ancient Music - Arleen Augur - Catherine Robbin - Anthony Rolfe Johnson - Gregory Reinhart.


If you want to listen to the Karajan I have plenty of others to listen to.


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## Bix

hayd said:


> I'm busy today, it's the only one I've time for!


Thanks for joining in.


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## MagneticGhost

Bix said:


> If you want to listen to the Karajan I have plenty of others to listen to.


Thanks but I am happy with listening on Spotify. I want the opportunity to listen to different ones anyway having been bought up on Karajan


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## moody

DavidA said:


> I must say that I think old recordings start with a disadvantage for me because of sound quality. I have the Toscanini cycle but the sound detracts from the performances. And this is surely a case of using your ears! For me the sound quality must be at least acceptable.
> 
> Interesting you should talk about Schuritch. A friend of mine had that performance on HMV when I started collecting records more than 50 years ago. I certainly wouldn't describe it as 'white hot'. And the Paris orchestral playing of the day left something to be desired. When my friend saved up for Karajan 63 we both agreed how vastly superior it was, in sound quality, orchestral playing and interpretation.
> 
> I must confess that I wonder sometimes whether the preference for old recordings is based on nostalgia? But then Karajan 63 was recorded 50 years ago! But what advances in engineering had been made since Toscanini.


The problem with the Toscanini recordings was not so much the recording engineering of the time,it was the lousy recordings that RCA gave him.
There are certain live recordings that hi-light this problem. But Bigshot reports that this recent giant boxed set has been vastly improved, the point is that everyone should listen to him it's important. Also nostalgia is usually a misty memory from one's past but one can hear these old recordings right now and judge the performances as opposed to the sound quality.
Regarding Schuricht's 9th,I put it on after copying down the details and the last movement is certainly hot.The French orchestras used to have a different sound due to the brass alone but now everyone seems to use German brass and they mostly sound alike...pity!
I used to go to as many of Schuricht's concert as possible and his name should be up there with the best.


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## Bix

*My feedback on the Karajan recording.*

The Orchestra

Not a surprise to say this but under Karajan the Berlin philharmonic have great control over their final sound. There is a cohesive sound with no particular instrument vying for attention out of the score. In the second movement the percussionist has such good control, he/she is able to increase volume with the orchestra, I've heard versions where the percussionist is bashing away like mad, even in the quieter parts. Overall the orchestra is sympathetic to the need of light and shade in this piece and keep a good pace throughout.

The vocals

I can understand why Verdi's response to the vocal parts was 'whata da hella' or maybe it was 'che diavolo', each vocal part is stretched past the usual comforts of range but the sopranos, poor dears, they really have to go up there.

The massed choir looses it briefly during the first singing of 'seid umschlungen, millionen' i don't know whether this is the fault of the choir or the orchestra, so lets blame Herbert.

After the first singing of 'Über Sternen muß er wohnen' the sopranos and tenors in the choir sing a pianissimo phrase, but their control is bad and some of them are fractionally out of tune that it almost creates a dissonance that is not in the score. After that its great all the way to the end.

The soloists where good but i would have made a few substitutions - Barbara Bonney for soprano, John Wakefield for tenor and John Shirley-Quirk for bass - Agnes can stay.

*Overall a rating of 8/10, I would like to listen to a non-Germanic rendition to compare the brass and silver.*


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## MagneticGhost

Was there a fixed time because I've listened to my Hogwood already. 
No blood and thunder in HIP?? This grabbed me by the proverbials from the off. Such clarity. Such energy. Such great rude sounding Brass. 
The Adagio was disappointing though. I thought it was a little aimless and thready at times.
Hogwood's soloists as in his Haydn works are beautifully clear. None of that full on operatic vibrato that gets in the way of the melodic line.
For someone who hasn't heard much beyond Karajan it's a revelatory experience. 

I listened to Beethoven a lot when I was younger and rarely do nowadays. But it was like listening to a new piece. I did listen to the Norrington last month and felt similar. As someone who pooh poohed Hip in the past.. I have been fully converted. Hogwood's Creation was great. His Beethoven is right up there. I'll be interested to hear the rest of the cycle.

6/10 (lost points in the Adagio)


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## Bix

MagneticGhost said:


> Was there a fixed time.


No fixed time, just give your synopsis/analysis/comment before the next Saturday, as early as possible preferably because we can have time to discuss for the next Saturday.


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## moody

Bix said:


> No fixed time, just give your synopsis/analysis/comment before the next Saturday, as early as possible preferably because we can have time to discuss for the next Saturday.


What does this comment of yours mean,is this part of something ?


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## Wood

*Fast and bulbous*

*Sir John Eliot Gardiner, *_Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique, Monteverdi Choir, Luba Orgonasova, Anne Sofie von Otter, Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Gilles Cachemaille_*

*Archiv, 1992











This version gives change from an hour!

With the dial turned to 11, the drive in the opening two movements provided by the correct playing speed provides a powerful chronological successor to Haydn. This is music which is entertaining as well as 'learned'.

The warm clarity of the pre-valved brass is another high point, particularly in the adagio. Indeed, the languidity of the slow movement is made more pronounced by the build up of the allegro and scherzo.

The singing is excellent, but pulsates in an unusual way and this is perpetuated by the timpani.

Whilst a little strange at first to hear very familiar music being played so fast (I have been listening to Cluytens for 30 odd years) within five minutes from the start it became apparent that this is the natural way to play Beethoven 9.

Will someone have a go at MacKerras?


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## MagneticGhost

moody said:


> What does this comment of yours mean,is this part of something ?


It's part of this

http://www.talkclassical.com/26593-saturday-symphonies.html


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## moody

MagneticGhost said:


> It's part of this
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/26593-saturday-symphonies.html


Thanks but no thanks.


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## Manxfeeder

Rats, my hands hurt from a brutal week. Szell's 9th is now open for review.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> The problem with the Toscanini recordings was not so much the recording engineering of the time,it was the lousy recordings that RCA gave him.
> There are certain live recordings that hi-light this problem. But Bigshot reports that this recent giant boxed set has been vastly improved, the point is that everyone should listen to him it's important. Also nostalgia is usually a misty memory from one's past but one can hear these old recordings right now and judge the performances as opposed to the sound quality.
> Regarding Schuricht's 9th,I put it on after copying down the details and the last movement is certainly hot.The French orchestras used to have a different sound due to the brass alone but now everyone seems to use German brass and they mostly sound alike...pity!
> I used to go to as many of Schuricht's concert as possible and his name should be up there with the best.


I do wonder how much Toscanini had to do with the sound. Apparently he used to prefer a dry acoustic. But the recordings are lousy even for the day. 
Although one can tell a fine performance I do feel one's enjoyment is severely restricted by the sound. Whenever I put on an elderly recording my wife (a musician herself) always comments on how bad the recording is.
It actually shows just how ahead people like Legge. And Culshaw were of the game. Their recordings from the 50s still sound good.


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## DavidA

Bix said:


> *My feedback on the Karajan recording.*
> 
> The massed choir looses it briefly during the first singing of 'seid umschlungen, millionen' i don't know whether this is the fault of the choir or the orchestra, so lets blame Herbert.
> 
> After the first singing of 'Über Sternen muß er wohnen' the sopranos and tenors in the choir sing a pianissimo phrase, but their control is bad and some of them are fractionally out of tune that it almost creates a dissonance that is not in the score. After that its great all the way to the end.
> 
> The soloists where good but i would have made a few substitutions - Barbara Bonney for soprano, John Wakefield for tenor and John Shirley-Quirk for bass - Agnes can stay.
> 
> *Overall a rating of 8/10, I would like to listen to a non-Germanic rendition to compare the brass and silver.*


Interesting. The choir HvK used were apparently not top notch. But he had a loyalty to them.


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## Downbeat

Bix said:


> *Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)*
> 
> Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125
> 
> 1. Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
> 
> 2. Scherzo: Molto vivace - Presto
> 
> 3. Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato - Tempo primo - Andante moderato - Adagio - Lo stesso tempo
> 
> 4. Recitative: (Presto - Allegro ma non troppo - Vivace - Adagio cantabile - Allegro assai - Presto: O Freunde) - Allegro molto assai: Freude, schöner Götterfunken - Alla marcia - Allegro assai vivace: Froh, wie seine Sonnen - Andante maestoso: Seid umschlungen, Millionen! - Adagio ma non troppo, ma divoto: Ihr, stürzt nieder - Allegro energico, sempre ben marcato: (Freude, schöner Götterfunken - Seid umschlungen, Millionen!) - Allegro ma non tanto: Freude, Tochter aus Elysium! - Prestissimo, Maestoso, Molto prestissimo: Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


Bohm with the Vienna Philharmonic (cerca 1980). The 9th is not my favorite, piece and I bought the disc without too much consideration, at a good price knowing Bohm was passed his prime. I enjoyed it though, because it sounded UNLIKE others...the wonderful Bohm sense of rythm and more thoughtful than other, brash interpretations.

Placido Domingo gets a bit carried away, though...an uncomfortable conflict in tempo between his enthusiasm and Bohm's reservation.

Apart from that, not bad value for money!


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## Bix

moody said:


> What does this comment of yours mean,is this part of something ?


It's in response to a question.


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## Bix

DavidA said:


> Interesting. The choir HvK used were apparently not top notch. But he had a loyalty to them.


Oh they were good, and in comparison to the whole product these little mistakes are insignificant. The sound system I use lets me hear all sorts.


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## Mahlerian

A quite full-blooded big-band Ninth in mid 20th century style (late 50s/early 60s). The massed winds and choir can get muddy, especially in the finale, but Beethoven would have loved the sheer impact of the first movement's recapitulation, where the timpani holds a long F# pedal against a fortissimo major-mode version of the intro. The scherzo, filled with sudden twists of harmony, is diabolical and its trio jocular as ever. The third movement is taken very slowly, as was the trend before HIP performances began to take Beethoven's metronome markings seriously, but with a good sense of line and movement. The choir in the finale, as stated before, is on the muddy side, and I've heard better quartets in other recordings (very few can carry off the series of cadenzas near the end convincingly, especially at the slow tempos favored by that generation), but the sheer dynamism of the group carries it forward throughout.

No number ranking, sorry.


----------



## moody

Bix said:


> It's in response to a question.


I hadn't realised it was part of a grand plan. I'm really not prepared to plug through a whole lot of stuff that I have no interest in.


----------



## moody

Mahlerian said:


> A quite full-blooded big-band Ninth in mid 20th century style (late 50s/early 60s). The massed winds and choir can get muddy, especially in the finale, but Beethoven would have loved the sheer impact of the first movement's recapitulation, where the timpani holds a long F# pedal against a fortissimo major-mode version of the intro. The scherzo, filled with sudden twists of harmony, is diabolical and its trio jocular as ever. The third movement is taken very slowly, as was the trend before HIP performances began to take Beethoven's metronome markings seriously, but with a good sense of line and movement. The choir in the finale, as stated before, is on the muddy side, and I've heard better quartets in other recordings (very few can carry off the series of cadenzas near the end convincingly, especially at the slow tempos favored by that generation), but the sheer dynamism of the group carries it forward throughout.
> 
> No number ranking, sorry.


His son Erik Smith was DGG's chief recording engineer was he not ? He had become a British citizen.


----------



## MagneticGhost

moody said:


> I hadn't realised it was part of a grand plan. I'm really not prepared to plug through a whole lot of stuff that I have no interest in.


I'm sure I speak for Bix here when I say - There's no obligation to plug through anything Mr Moody. You can just chip in on the symphonies that you know and love - like you've done earlier on Beethoven's 9th. And ignore the ones you're not interested in. And just maybe - join us and listen to a new symphony in a week that we do one that you've never heard. 

It's not really a masterplan - just an excuse to chat about a specific work each week.


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## moody

I will get this right if it kills me..don't laugh because it might
It wasn't DG it was Decca with John Culshaw. When Culshaw died Smith moved to Philips and was there for more than 20 years.
While at Philips he was responsible for the Philips complete Mozart Edition ,a huge release of 180 CDs.
He also produced a series of Haydn operas with Antal Dorati.
Also Berlioz' operas "Les Troyens" and "Benvenuto Cellini" with Colin Davis. (First recordings).
Also Mitsuko Uchida's Schubert Sonatas.
He retired in 1991 with 90 operas to his credit.

He died in 2004.


----------



## moody

MagneticGhost said:


> I'm sure I speak for Bix here when I say - There's no obligation to plug through anything Mr Moody. You can just chip in on the symphonies that you know and love - like you've done earlier on Beethoven's 9th. And ignore the ones you're not interested in. And just maybe - join us and listen to a new symphony in a week that we do one that you've never heard.
> 
> It's not really a masterplan - just an excuse to chat about a specific work each week.


OK I will keep a watching brief.


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> His son Erik Smith was DGG's chief recording engineer was he not ? He had become a British citizen.


Moody. Eric Smith was not Cluytons' son but the son of hans Schmitt-Isserstedt (is that how you spell it?),

.
No wonder he found signing cheques easier with a name like smith!


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> Moody. Eric Smith was not Cluytons' son but the son of hans Schmitt-Isserstedt (is that how you spell it?),
> 
> .
> No wonder he found signing cheques easier with a name like smith!


You're quite right.it should have been positioned under FLighT's post.
And Mahlerian gave me a "like" !
Must have all been down to a) the heat. b) tiredness . c) age.


----------



## realdealblues

I just finished listening to Kubelik's 9th.

View attachment 21203


I hadn't listened to it in a while which is why I chose it. It's big, old fashioned Beethoven that brings to mind (at least to my mind) Furtwangler. I like the tempos and overall it has that grand and majestic feeling. I still feel it's an overlooked recording that you don't hear many people talk about. I'm not familiar with any of the singers but I feel they do a good job. There are lots of Symphonies where I have a definitive recording in mind, but Beethoven's 9th isn't one of them. Kubelik's recording probably sits somewhere in my Top 10 although I couldn't actually put them in a specific order of preferred listening.


----------



## techniquest

I went for a recording that's not so obvious (or possibly so popular): Wyn Morris with the LSO from this set -









So; LSO, LSO Chorus, Alison Hargen, Della Jones, David Rendell, Gwynne Howell; recorded in 1988.
This recording totals around 71 minutes and the first movement starts really well at the kind of pace that I like - it gives the sense that something important is going to happen. I found a good balance in the orchestra and I liked the timpani; not too far forward but definitely as important a part of the orchestra as anything else. The stereo is quite wide too which adds to the clarity of what's happening. This is particularly good in the 2nd movement as there is so much going on and it's good to hear so many instruments dipping in and out especially during the quieter triplet sections. This 2nd movement is again paced just to my liking; it's not too slow but it doesn't belt through like a race!
I have a problem with the 3rd movement of this symphony and even after all these years i just can't get into it. I find that it starts beautifully but then seems to meander around and I simply get lost and lose interest. This is nothing to do with this recording, it's my limited apprectiation.
In the finale, the dissonant first chord is swiftly followed by pronounced odd accents on the brass - more accentuated here than I've heard in many other recordings. The muted recurrance of the opening of mvt 1 and a quick burst of the triplets from mvt 2 almost feel like little teases in the heavy seriousness of the unison low string wanderings before they find a hushed first appearance of the 'Ode to Joy' theme. The big orchestral blast of the tune is majestic here and really works. I like the bass entrance in this recording, but overall I found the chorus to be lacking in strength.
I like the bouncy 'oom-pah' section with the tenor and percussion, not too slow, but still pronounced in a different pace from what has just gone before; in contrast I like the very end to really belt along and in this recording it's just a tad staid. That said overall I like this recording and would recommend it.

Just after listening to the Wyn Morris recording I listened to movements 1 and 4 from the much more recent Chailly recording. The sound is absolutely first rate, but for me the pacing is awful - much too fast and with barely any depth of feeling whatsoever. Maybe I just need to get used to it.


----------



## Bix

realdealblues said:


> I just finished listening to Kubelik's 9th.
> 
> View attachment 21203
> 
> 
> I hadn't listened to it in a while which is why I chose it. It's big, old fashioned Beethoven that brings to mind (at least to my mind) Furtwangler. I like the tempos and overall it has that grand and majestic feeling. I still feel it's an overlooked recording that you don't hear many people talk about. I'm not familiar with any of the singers but I feel they do a good job. There are lots of Symphonies where I have a definitive recording in mind, but Beethoven's 9th isn't one of them. Kubelik's recording probably sits somewhere in my Top 10 although I couldn't actually put them in a specific order of preferred listening.


I have not heard this version so I will give it a listen.


----------



## Bix

techniquest said:


> I went for a recording that's not so obvious (or possibly so popular): Wyn Morris with the LSO from this set -
> 
> View attachment 21210
> 
> 
> So; LSO, LSO Chorus, Alison Hargen, Della Jones, David Rendell, Gwynne Howell; recorded in 1988.
> This recording totals around 71 minutes and the first movement starts really well at the kind of pace that I like - it gives the sense that something important is going to happen. I found a good balance in the orchestra and I liked the timpani; not too far forward but definitely as important a part of the orchestra as anything else. The stereo is quite wide too which adds to the clarity of what's happening. This is particularly good in the 2nd movement as there is so much going on and it's good to hear so many instruments dipping in and out especially during the quieter triplet sections. This 2nd movement is again paced just to my liking; it's not too slow but it doesn't belt through like a race!
> I have a problem with the 3rd movement of this symphony and even after all these years i just can't get into it. I find that it starts beautifully but then seems to meander around and I simply get lost and lose interest. This is nothing to do with this recording, it's my limited apprectiation.
> In the finale, the dissonant first chord is swiftly followed by pronounced odd accents on the brass - more accentuated here than I've heard in many other recordings. The muted recurrance of the opening of mvt 1 and a quick burst of the triplets from mvt 2 almost feel like little teases in the heavy seriousness of the unison low string wanderings before they find a hushed first appearance of the 'Ode to Joy' theme. The big orchestral blast of the tune is majestic here and really works. I like the bass entrance in this recording, but overall I found the chorus to be lacking in strength.
> I like the bouncy 'oom-pah' section with the tenor and percussion, not too slow, but still pronounced in a different pace from what has just gone before; in contrast I like the very end to really belt along and in this recording it's just a tad staid. That said overall I like this recording and would recommend it.
> 
> Just after listening to the Wyn Morris recording I listened to movements 1 and 4 from the much more recent Chailly recording. The sound is absolutely first rate, but for me the pacing is awful - much too fast and with barely any depth of feeling whatsoever. Maybe I just need to get used to it.


Thanks for this, really informative.


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## moody

WYN MORRIS.

Wyn Morris was a Welsh conductor and fairly brilliant but also an absolute b*****d, he screwed up his career by being impossible to work with,he was also an alcoholic and fortunate to be rescued by Isabella Wallich.
Isabella Wallich was the niece of Fred Gaisburg who recruited Caruso for HMV when he was just beginning.
She was the first woman record producer and set up Delyse to aim at all things Welsh.
She recorded Geraint Evans and Janet Baker in only the second recording of Mahler's Des Knaben Wunderhorn --I love it and still listen regularly. The conductor was Wyn Morris.
She also recorded (all ?) Mahler's Symphonies with him including Deryk Cooke's version of the 10th,I think they are fascinating.The orchestra was hand-picked from among the best known instrumentalists.
Where, you wonder, is Mahlerian when you need him .
She did a brilliant Beethoven "Emperor " with Charles Rosen and Morris.


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## Celloman

I think I'll go with the Toscanini 1952 version, haven't listened to that one in a while. If I cop out at the last second, it'll be the Karajan 1963.


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## Celloman

*Death of a Classical Radio Station*

Just finished the Toscanini 1952. Excellent recording!

Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, there was a little boy who loved classical music. As it so happened, his favorite radio station played nothing but classical music, every morning, and every afternoon, and every evening, and all night long. After school, he'd come home and turn on the radio, and listen to classical music until he had to go to bed. Later, his mom would walk into his room and turn off the radio because he'd fallen asleep listening to it.

Years went by. The boy grew older, but he still listened to the classical radio station every day. He found that he liked some composers more than others, and a few composers he liked most of all. Sometimes, he would hear some music he'd never heard before, music that was mysterious and unfamiliar. He wouldn't like it right away. But one day, he'd wake up and find that he liked it and wanted to hear it again. And the boy was happy, because the folks over at the station had opened up a whole new world for him.

Then one summer, the radio station ran out of money. It was forced to shut its doors. The boy was sad, because soon it would never make music again. On the very last day, they played Beethoven's 9th symphony. The boy came to the station and said goodbye to the radio personalities that he'd grown up with. Then the music stopped. The radio went static, and that was all. Everyone went home.

That boy was me.

And that's what I think of whenever I hear Beethoven's 9th. The death of a classical music radio station. Kind of sad.


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## Vesteralen

The oldest CD of this my library system had (age of CD, not age of performance) was Tilson Thomas and the ECO. I prefer the first movement with the repeat, but I'm liking the bright, clear sound of the ECO. Tilson Thomas has a rhythmically vibrant touch with the first movement that is actually very appealing to me. The staccato French horns near the coda are strange, but kind of likable in a way.


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## Vesteralen

I think someone on this thread mentioned Frans Bruggen and the Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century. I was able to preview this one from my local library system and I have to say that the vocalists in this performance were fantastic. The tenor especially (and I'm not at all partial to tenors as a rule) had a gorgeous voice. For once, the vocal line sounded almost natural and unstrained.

The ending measures were conducted at a slightly slower pace than I'm used to, but, surprisingly, that did not diminish the excitement factor. This was a really worthwhile listening experience.


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## SixFootScowl

Out of thirty Ninths I have tried, none are as wonderful as this one:

Ferenc Fricsay, conductor
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Irmgard Seefried, soprano
Maureen Forrester, alto/contralto
Ernst Haefliger, tenor
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone
Chor der St. Hedwigs Kathedrale
1958


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## DiesIraeCX

Florestan said:


> Out of thirty Ninths I have tried, none are as wonderful as this one:
> 
> Ferenc Fricsay, conductor
> Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
> Irmgard Seefried, soprano
> Maureen Forrester, alto/contralto
> Ernst Haefliger, tenor
> Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone
> Chor der St. Hedwigs Kathedrale
> 1958


Fricsay's 9th is absolutely wonderful, I've never heard a greater Adagio and Finale than this in this recording. I love that the Chorus isn't muffled and delegated to the background like what seems to be most other recordings. The 9th is when the human voice broke out into the symphonic form for the first time ever. It was a groundbreaking decision by Beethoven, there's no reason that the singing shouldn't be in the forefront.
Fricsay is in my top-three 9th recordings, I have over 12 ninths in total.


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## thebakerman

I like Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven. I don't think i've heard a recording of him doing no 9... I have a recording of 9 with Gunter Wand that I like


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## DiesIraeCX

thebakerman said:


> I like Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven. I don't think i've heard a recording of him doing no 9... I have a recording of 9 with Gunter Wand that I like


Unfortunately, Carlos Kleiber's orchestral and symphonic repertoire is very limited. He only performed Beethoven's 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th symphonies. It's a shame because I'd call him my favorite conductor if he had recorded more symphonies and wider variety of composers. Oh well, the recordings we do have of him are top top notch.


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## JACE

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Fricsay is in my top-three 9th recordings, I have over 12 ninths in total.


DI-VIX, I'm curious: What are your other two faves?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

JACE said:


> DI-VIX, I'm curious: What are your other two faves?


My favorite Beethoven 9th is Karajan's 1963 recording. My 2nd choice would be Fricsay's (1958, DG) and my 3rd choice would be Toscanini's 1952 recording.

I'm not including the Karajan 1977 9th that is only on DVD (EuroArts), it would be tied for my 1st choice. Watching/listening to music on the TV is not my preferred method of listening.


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## DiesIraeCX

Also, here's the list of 9th's that I own. Yes, I realize it's a sickness, haha.

- Karajan 1963
- Karajan 1977 DVD
- Karajan 1977 CD (not the same performance as the DVD)
- Ferenc Friscay 1958
- Wilhelm Furtwängler 1942
- Wilhelm Furtwängler 1954 (his last performance of the 9th, Philharmonia Orchestra at Lucerne Festival)
- Arturo Toscanini 1952
- George Szell (Sony)
- Claudio Abbado (Sony, 1996)
- Claudio Abbado (DG, 2000)
- Riccardo Muti (Seraphim Classics)
- John Eliot Gardiner 1994
- Christian Thielemann on Blu-ray (comes with Symphonies 7, 8, and 9)
- Wilhelm Schüchter


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## SixFootScowl

I have three Karajan, but not the DVD. The 1963 Karajan has Gundula Janowitz, one of my favorite sopranos. I just got the 1942 Furtwangler Ninth. 

Here is my whole collection of Ninths (grouped in nines):

_________________________________________________
Bernstein 1989 (Ode to Freedom)
Blomstedt 1980
Blomstedt 1985
Drahos 1996
Duvier 1990
Fricsay 1958
Furtwangler 1942
Gardiner 1994
Hanoncourt 1991
-------------------
Herreweghe 1998
Karajan 1963 
Karajan 1977
Karajan 1984
Klemperer 1956
Kofman 2001
Leinsdorf 1969
Maag 1994
Maazel 1978
-------------------
Masur 1974
Mehta 
Monteux 1962 (including a 25 minute rehearsal session)
Munch 1958
Norrington 1987
Reiner 1961
Sanz Torre 2006
Solti 1986
Stokowski 1934
-------------------
Szell 1961
Toscanini 1952
Walter 1959
Wand 1986
Weingartner 1935
Zander 1991
Zinman 1994
_________________________________
4th Movement Only: Abbado 1995 and Leppard 1994


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## Mahlerian

No good. You have to keep going until you reach 9 groups of 9 for a total of 81 recordings!


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## SixFootScowl

Mahlerian said:


> No good. You have to keep going until you reach 9 groups of 9 for a total of 81 recordings!


Now I just need 9 times as much free time so I can listen to them all. I admit, I was OCD on Ninths for a while there. But I just bought the Furtwangler Ninth two days ago (in a set of 6 Beethoven symphonies titled Furtwangler Conducts Beethoven, all WWII recordings).


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## realdealblues

Here's a rough list of my Beethoven 9ths...
I'm sure I'm missing a few one off recordings. I'm not at home to double check them, but off the top of my head I know I have all of these.

Abbado (I)
Abbado (II)
Abbado (III)
Ansermet
Asahina
Barenboim
Bernstein (I)
Bernstein (II)
Bernstein (III)
Blomstedt (I)
Bohm
Bruggen (I)
Bruggen (II)
Celibidache
Chailly
Cluytens
Davis
Fricsay
Furtwangler 1942
Furtwangler 1951
Furtwangler 1954
Gardiner
Giulini
Haitink (I)
Haitink (II)
Hanoncourt
Herreweghe
Hogwood
Jansons
Jarvi
Jochum (I)
Jochum (II)
Jochum (III)
Karajan (I)
Karajan (II)
Karajan (III)
Karajan (IV)
Kegel
Kempe
Klemperer
Kletzki
Krips
Kubelik
Leibowitz
Leinsdorf
Maazel
Mackerras (I)
Mackerras (II)
Masur
Monteux
Munch
Muti
Norrington (I)
Norrington (II)
Ormandy
Pletnev
Rattle
Reiner
Sawallisch
Scherchen
Schmidt-Isserstedt
Schuricht
Solti (I)
Solti (II)
Szell
Thielemann
Toscanini 1952
Vanska
Walter
Wand
Weingartner
Zinman


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## JACE

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Also, here's the list of 9th's that I own. *Yes, I realize it's a sickness, haha.*


A sickness that afflicts many of us! 

But it's a _wonderful_ affliction, no?!?!?


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## JACE

Seeing all of the love that Fricsay's LvB Ninth gets, I suppose I *need* to get it. 

BTW: My collection of Ninths is _paltry_, compared to you guys!

Böhm (DG, 1972)
Colin Davis (Philips)
Furtwängler (EMI)
Klemperer (EMI)
Jochum (EMI)
Stokowski (Decca)
Szell (Sony)

At some point, I should probably investigate a HIP recording of the Ninth too. But, generally speaking, I find that I'm not wild about them.


----------



## realdealblues

JACE said:


> Seeing all of the love that Fricsay's LvB Ninth gets, I suppose I *need* to get it.
> 
> BTW: My collection of Ninths is _paltry_, compared to you guys!
> 
> Böhm (DG, 1972)
> Colin Davis (Philips)
> Furtwängler (EMI, 1954)
> Klemperer (EMI)
> Jochum (EMI)
> Stokowski (Decca)
> Szell (Sony)
> 
> At some point, I should probably should investigate a HIP recording of the Ninth too. But, generally speaking, I find that I'm not wild about them.


Yeah, I bet you'd really enjoy Fricsay's recording. You've got a good list there. Bohm, Klemp and Szell are in my top tier. Are you sure the EMI Furtwangler isn't 1951?  I'm pretty sure the 1954 I've only seen on Tahara.

I'm not into the HIP ones either.

Wand still has one of the best 9th's in my opinion as well. Kletzki is worth hearing just for his tenor Martin Ritzmann. If you want to hear the 9th taken at HIP speeds using Beethoven's metronome markings I'd recommend Chailly. The others just sound too wimpy.


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## JACE

realdealblues said:


> Are you sure the EMI Furtwangler isn't 1951? I'm pretty sure the 1954 I've only seen on Tahara.


Doh! My mistake. It's the Seraphim 2-LP set.


----------



## SixFootScowl

realdealblues said:


> Wand still has one of the best 9th's in my opinion as well.


 Which Wand? I have a Wand cycle and want to see if mine is the good one.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

JACE said:


> Seeing all of the love that Fricsay's LvB Ninth gets, I suppose I *need* to get it.
> 
> BTW: My collection of Ninths is _paltry_, compared to you guys!
> 
> Böhm (DG, 1972)
> Colin Davis (Philips)
> Furtwängler (EMI)
> Klemperer (EMI)
> Jochum (EMI)
> Stokowski (Decca)
> Szell (Sony)
> 
> At some point, I should probably should investigate a HIP recording of the Ninth too. But, generally speaking, I find that I'm not wild about them.


Definitely! I would highly recommend Fricsay and you might as well try Karajan 1963, I see you don't have that in your collection. Both of those recordings are essential.

For HIP recordings, I don't mind it for Beethoven's first 8 symphonies but I just don't think it works quite as well for the 9th symphony. That said, I'd still advise getting at least one HIP recording, I'd recommend John Eliot Gardiner's because if you're gonna get a HIP 9th recording, you might as well get one that is performed on period-instruments. Plus, it's dirt cheap on Amazon, you can get it used for about a quarter or a new one for about five bucks!


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## DiesIraeCX

*@realdealblues @Florestan*

You two have quite a collection! Let me ask you something, which recordings are among your favorites that are *not * from a superstar conductor or a very well-known conductor. No Karajan/Bohm/Klemperer/Wand/Abbado/Furtwangler, etc. I noticed quite a few in your list that are from conductors that I've never heard of.


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## thetrout

I got another 9th a few days ago from a second hand shop: Michael Tilson Thomas/English Chamber Orchestra. It seems to be a great rendition - I have only played it once. Here is the cover,


----------



## OperaGeek

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Unfortunately, Carlos Kleiber's orchestral and symphonic repertoire is very limited. He only performed Beethoven's 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th symphonies. It's a shame because I'd call him my favorite conductor if he had recorded more symphonies and wider variety of composers. Oh well, the recordings we do have of him are top top notch.


Carlos Kleiber is one of the most frustrating conductors in history! Why? Because he was so selective with his repertory and didn't make more recordings, that's why! A Kleiber 9th - studio, live or preferably both - would no doubt have been of great interest.

Like others here, I am afflicated with the "9th fever", having purchased far too many recordings of the 9th to be able to convince anyone of my sanity.

I have always had a soft spot for Bernstein's 1979 DG recording (Jones/Schwarz/Kollo/Moll, Wiener Staatsopernchor, Wiener Philharmoniker). Of more recent versions, I really enjoy Chailly's 2008 Leipzig recording on Decca (Beranova/Paasikivi/Dean Smith/Müller-Brachmann, various choruses, Gewandhausorchester).


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## SixFootScowl

DiesIraeVIX said:


> *@realdealblues @Florestan*
> 
> You two have quite a collection! Let me ask you something, which recordings are among your favorites that are *not * from a superstar conductor or a very well-known conductor. No Karajan/Bohm/Klemperer/Wand/Abbado/Furtwangler, etc. I noticed quite a few in your list that are from conductors that I've never heard of.


I haven't listened to much but Fricsay in over a year and have acquired a few Ninths that I have not even bothered to listen to yet, but my notes from when my collection had about 22 Ninths indicate my favorites to be:

Favorite:
Fricsay 1957/8

nd best:
Maazel 1978
Zinmann 1994 
Masur 1974 (very clear singing, stand out soprano)
Duvier 1990
Blomstedt 1980

3rd best:
Munch 1958 (great voices but scratchy)
Stokowski 1934 (scratchy)
Monteau 1962
Blomstedt 1985
Weingartner 1935 (scratchy)

Also good but not rated as above, and only have 4th movements on these:
Abbado 1995 
Leppard 1994

A later note indicates that Szell 1961 is excellent.

The Sanz Torre was purchased to have a female conductor and some on this site say she is a terrible conductor, but I like her Ninth, though don't recall where it ranks among all my Ninths.


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## KenOC

OperaGeek said:


> Carlos Kleiber is one of the most frustrating conductors in history! Why? Because he was so selective with his repertory and didn't make more recordings, that's why!


Some famous conductor said that Kleiber only conducted when his freezer was empty. I seem to remember also reading that he had horrible stage fright, but not sure about that.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

KenOC said:


> Some famous conductor said that Kleiber only conducted when his freezer was empty. I seem to remember also reading that he had horrible stage fright, but not sure about that.


Karajan, I think?

For those of us who never saw him conducting, there are some interesting videos of him at work eg Beethoven's 7th 



 - the bit around 2:20 is interesting - he hardly seems to be doing much and yet he gets a sublime performance from the orchestra.

there is a fascinating and illuminating good radio documentary exploring his style at 



 along with video documentaries such as 'Traces to nowhere' and 'Lost to the World' which are well worth watching.

A true genius


----------



## SixFootScowl

thetrout said:


> I got another 9th a few days ago from a second hand shop: Michael Tilson Thomas/English Chamber Orchestra. It seems to be a great rendition - I have only played it once. Here is the cover,
> 
> View attachment 49338


I just ordered this Ninth. It sounds wonderful to me.







Clips here.


----------



## realdealblues

Florestan said:


> Which Wand? I have a Wand cycle and want to see if mine is the good one.


If you have Gunter Wand's complete Beethoven Symphony Cycle then you have it.



DiesIraeVIX said:


> For HIP recordings, I don't mind it for Beethoven's first 8 symphonies but I just don't think it works quite as well for the 9th symphony. That said, I'd still advise getting at least one HIP recording, I'd recommend John Eliot Gardiner's because if you're gonna get a HIP 9th recording, you might as well get one that is performed on period-instruments. Plus, it's dirt cheap on Amazon, you can get it used for about a quarter or a new one for about five bucks!


Technically from what I remember Gardiner used a mix of modern and period instruments so his isn't all that accurate either. I've "tried" to like that set for probably 15 years because it was so highly touted when it came out, but I've come to the conclusion that it's honestly in my bottom 5 Beethoven Symphony Cycles.



DiesIraeVIX said:


> *@realdealblues @Florestan*
> 
> You two have quite a collection! Let me ask you something, which recordings are among your favorites that are *not * from a superstar conductor or a very well-known conductor. No Karajan/Bohm/Klemperer/Wand/Abbado/Furtwangler, etc. I noticed quite a few in your list that are from conductors that I've never heard of.


To me, all of those conductors are world famous and well known. Take someone like Kletzki. He isn't as well known in America or as well known as he was in the 60's but he's still a well known name in the classical music world. He was much more famous in Europe. His 9th is excellent and with the Czech Philharmonic behind him the sound is amazing.


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## DiesIraeCX

realdealblues said:


> Technically from what I remember Gardiner used a mix of modern and period instruments so his isn't all that accurate either. I've "tried" to like that set for probably 15 years because it was so highly touted when it came out, but I've come to the conclusion that it's honestly in my bottom 5 Beethoven Symphony Cycles.
> 
> ---
> 
> To me, all of those conductors are world famous and well known. Take someone like Kletzki. He isn't as well known in America or as well known as he was in the 60's but he's still a well known name in the classical music world. He was much more famous in Europe. His 9th is excellent and with the Czech Philharmonic behind him the sound is amazing.


Interesting, I didn't know that about Gardiner's cycle, thanks for that!

My previous post said, "No Karajan/Bohm/Klemperer/Wand/Abbado/Furtwangler, etc." So someone not from that group of superstar conductors. The Kletzki example is perfect, I'll have to check his 9th out, hopefully it's on Spotify! If not, I foresee another purchase in my near future.


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## Vaneyes

Yes, HvK did say that about CK. It reminds me of professional golfer Bruce Lietzke, who frequented the PGA Tour in the 70's and 80's. He avoided US Opens. Torture, he said. He seldom played out of country. Preferred classic car collecting and fishing to golf. And though he never practiced, was always a significant money winner throughout his career, winning 13 PGAT events, and 7 Champion Tour events.

His PGAT caddy tested his non-practicing once, by placing a banana under the driver headcover. A few weeks later, "when the fridge was bare", Lietzke returned to the tour. The banana had rotted under the headcover.

Anyhoo, my favorite LvB Symphony 9 continues to be CSO/Solti (Decca, 1972). Honorable mentions--HvK '63, '77, Fricsay, Szell.:tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl

realdealblues said:


> If you have Gunter Wand's complete Beethoven Symphony Cycle then you have it.


Ah yes, correct you are. The main difference between the Wand Beethoven symphony cycle releases is that one is remastered.


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## realdealblues

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Interesting, I didn't know that about Gardiner's cycle, thanks for that!
> 
> My previous post said, "No Karajan/Bohm/Klemperer/Wand/Abbado/Furtwangler, etc." So someone not from that group of superstar conductors. The Kletzki example is perfect, I'll have to check his 9th out, hopefully it's on Spotify! If not, I foresee another purchase in my near future.


Yep, I believe Kletzki is on Spotify. His entire cycle can be purchased very cheap and is really wonderful. Those Czech Horns and Woodwinds and those Strings are just wonderful sounding. Definitely not HIP. Just nice moderate tempos with excellent clarity and playing.


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## techniquest

I was at a car boot sale yesterday when I happened upon the set from Roger Norrington / London Classical Players on Virgin Classics. Well it was only £2, so I bought it and the first (and so far only) piece I've listened to is the 9th. Now I have to ask: _what was Norrington thinking?_ The first and second movements are okay, but then it goes all weird; and the finale....oh my good God almighty! I will have to keep this set for two reasons; firstly I have all the other symphonies to listen to, but mostly because it is so far off the beaten track to be beyond eccentricity. What agreat purchase (though I'm *very* pleased that I have other 9ths - and indeed sets - to listen to).


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## Lord Lance

Bernstein's entire Beethoven output [Wiener and NYPH] is disappointing. The emotional weight, the virtuosity or the emotional connection required in all of Beethoven's symphonies is missing. His Ninth is alright but really not recommended unless you are a Bernstein fan.

No favorite Ninths currently but I have listened to quite a few HIP attempts and not one of them succeeds in coming close to the heights achieved by Greats like Karajan or Klemperer.


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## DiesIraeCX

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Bernstein's entire Beethoven output [Wiener and NYPH] is disappointing. The emotional weight, the virtuosity or the emotional connection required in all of Beethoven's symphonies is missing. His Ninth is alright but really not recommended unless you are a Bernstein fan.
> 
> No favorite Ninths currently but I have listened to quite a few HIP attempts and not one of them succeeds in coming close to the heights achieved by Greats like Karajan or Klemperer.


I have to agree with you about Bernstein's Beethoven, he's not at his best with the symphonies. I don't really care for any of his recordings (be it Vienna or NYP). Bernstein made his name with his Mahler.

I also agree with your statement, "_but really not recommended unless you are a Bernstein fan_", I find that is right on the money. His fans swear by him, but I _personally _ find him to be pretty self-indulgent sometimes, to point of being interventionist with the music. Hearing some of Bernstein's recordings are just as much about Bernstein as it is about the Composer, I think that is a very unhealthy balance between conductor and composer. That said, I wholeheartedly believe that the conductor must leave his personal stamp on the music, but I think you can go too far with that.

*I'm not saying his approach isn't valid or that he isn't a great or even legendary conductor (in fact, I think he is), I'm just saying it's not to my _personal_ tastes. That's all.


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## Lord Lance

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I have to agree with you about Bernstein's Beethoven, he's not at his best with the symphonies. I don't really care for any of his recordings (be it Vienna or NYP). Bernstein made his name with his Mahler.
> 
> I also agree with your statement, "_but really not recommended unless you are a Bernstein fan_", I find that is right on the money. His fans swear by him, but I _personally _ find him to be pretty self-indulgent sometimes, to point of being interventionist with the music. Hearing some of Bernstein's recordings are just as much about Bernstein as it is about the Composer, I think that is a very unhealthy balance between conductor and composer. That said, I wholeheartedly believe that the conductor must leave his personal stamp on the music, but I think you can go too far with that.
> 
> *I'm not saying his approach isn't valid or that he isn't a great or even legendary conductor (in fact, I think he is), I'm just saying it's not to my _personal_ tastes. That's all.


I think his approach works with other composers. His Brahms, Schumann, Bruckner, Mahler, Copland and Bernstein work well. Perhaps, he decided to record these work out of pressure. I don't remember a single conductor who hasn't recorded a single symphony of Beethoven. More curiously, his decision to record his rather tame [I don't want to diss his cycle or his style.] cycle with VPO is bewildering. Hopefully, some fan can enlighten me on why this cycle works.

On the other hand, I listened to the second movement of the Ninth again and it isn't so bad.


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## Wood

I'm currently enjoying Ozawa's Phillips recording with New Phil O from a generous 2 LP boxset (1974). 

Somewhat surprised that it doesn't feature at all upthread. Unloved or just a rare recording?


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## hpowders

I'm fond of the Furtwängler Lucerne performance. The Abbado/Berlin, a complete contrast, is very fine too. So is the Gunter Wand.


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## SONNET CLV

Beethoven's Ninth? How about this?









Beethoven Symphony No 9 arranged by Mahler. An SACD from PREISER RECORDS, PR 90773.
Kristjan Jarvi (Conductor), Tonkunstler-Orchester (Orchestra)

Interesting, to say the least.


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## DiesIraeCX

SONNET CLV said:


> Beethoven's Ninth? How about this?
> 
> View attachment 56988
> 
> 
> Beethoven Symphony No 9 arranged by Mahler. An SACD from PREISER RECORDS, PR 90773.
> Kristjan Jarvi (Conductor), Tonkunstler-Orchester (Orchestra)
> 
> Interesting, to say the least.


Definitely interesting! I just saved it on my Spotify. I've always wanted to hear Mahler's arrangement of Beethoven's 9th.


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## SixFootScowl

Besides my favorite Ninth, Fricsay, I recently went through all my Ninths (4th movements only) and discovered that Szell's Ninth is very good. (By the way, how do you pronounce his name, Zell or Sell?)


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## hpowders

Florestan said:


> Besides my favorite Ninth, Fricsay, I recently went through all my Ninths (4th movements only) and discovered that Szell's Ninth is very good. (By the way, how do you pronounce his name, Zell or Sell?)


The first one, Zell.


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