# Opera Sequences



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I remember thinking some time ago - I think I mentioned in this forum somewhere - that Pagliacci seemed like a natural run-up to Carmen, that Pagliacci changed his name to Don Jose and Carmen then told of his further adventures, so to speak.

Now having listened to Frau ohne Schatten a couple of times it seems like a natural Part II or resolution to Turandot. We all know how Puccini struggled to find resolution for his Empress - well, Calaf is obviously the Emperor, it's even the same fach, and FoS is how it all worked out, right?

Are there any other operas that seem like one naturally follows from the other, that you can think of? Apart, of course, from known multi-opera sequences like the Ring or Parsifal/Lohengrin.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I remember thinking some time ago - I think I mentioned in this forum somewhere - that Pagliacci seemed like a natural run-up to Carmen, that Pagliacci changed his name to Don Jose and Carmen then told of his further adventures, so to speak.
> 
> Now having listened to Frau ohne Schatten a couple of times it seems like a natural Part II or resolution to Turandot. We all know how Puccini struggled to find resolution for his Empress - well, Calaf is obviously the Emperor, it's even the same fach, and FoS is how it all worked out, right?
> 
> Are there any other operas that seem like one naturally follows from the other, that you can think of? Apart, of course, from known multi-opera sequences like the Ring or Parsifal/Lohengrin.


Le portrait de Manon as a sequel for Manon?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Le portrait de Manon as a sequel for Manon?


No, no - we're expressly leaving out INTENDED sequences. It has to be a sequence the composer wouldn't have imagined.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Of the top of my head:

Capriccio as a continuation of Boheme: Musetta having had enough of Marcello, marries well, becomes a Countess, takes up residence in a chateau outside Paris, is widowed, takes up with her old artsy crowd, and, with Mimi conveniently out the way, plays the poet (Rudolfo) against the musician (Schaunard).

And...Don Jose as the post-pubescent Cherubino: Hormone-laden Sevilliano sent up to the military for some trouble with a local landowner's wife never outgrows his stalky tendencies.

By the way I recently read a pretty well argued book that posited the characters of Parsifal were Buddhist re-incarnations from certain Ring characters in search of their final spiritual liberation. Yes, I steeled myself for a load of new-age-speak when I picked the book up, but it's very well researched and apparently Wagner left some pretty explicit clues about continuations of certain character types throughout his works.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Actually, Strauss and his librettist intended _Die Frau ohne Schatten _to be a "sequal" to _Die Zauberflöte_. Seems a bit of a stretch to me.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Musetta having had enough of Marcello, marries well, becomes a Countess, takes up residence in a chateau outside Paris, is widowed, takes up with her old artsy crowd, and, with Mimi conveniently out the way, plays the poet (Rudolfo) against the musician (Schaunard).


Yes. I like it. It works emotionally.



> And...Don Jose as the post-pubescent Cherubino: Hormone-laden Sevilliano sent up to the military for some trouble with a local landowner's wife never outgrows his stalky tendencies.


I dunno ... I think Cherubino would grow into Almaviva, myself. And wasn't Don Jose's sin pretty explicitly murder?



> By the way I recently read a pretty well argued book that posited the characters of Parsifal were Buddhist re-incarnations from certain Ring characters in search of their final spiritual liberation. Yes, I steeled myself for a load of new-age-speak when I picked the book up, but it's very well researched and apparently Wagner left some pretty explicit clues about continuations of certain character types throughout his works.


lol ... well if I ever learn to appreciate the Ring I may want a look at that book.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> Actually, Strauss and his librettist intended _Die Frau ohne Schatten _to be a "sequal" to _Die Zauberflöte_. Seems a bit of a stretch to me.


I don't think a sequel was their idea ... I think they wanted something which would entertain people in the same way, through myth and symbol ... it wasn't supposed to be an "update" or "remake" either, I think. They were trying to inhabit the same entertainment space. The phrase used in my libretto is "source of inspiration", and it says Hofmannsthal said FoS stood "in the same relation" to Zauberflote as (oddly enough considering what I mentioned in the Strauss thread about comparing Rosenkavalier to the Barber) Rosenkavalier does to "Figaro."


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I dunno ... I think Cherubino would grow into Almaviva, myself. And wasn't Don Jose's sin pretty explicitly murder?


Details, details! Actually Don Jose's sin isn't made explicit - only that his mother forgives him. But Cherubino _is_ sent to military service by Almaviva. I bet he keeps the dried up flower Carmen threw at him next to the ribbon he stole from the Countess in a cigar box underneath the bed in his prison cell.

Almaviva? Hmmm... If Don Jose doesn't work for you, then I'd say he's more likely to go the way of yet other operatic denizen of Seville: Don Giovanni.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Say, the happy ending in le nozze di Figaro did not quite happened as planned and Contessa turned into Marschallin and her unnamed father was the one who found the secret potion and that Rosina really was Elina Makropulous after all.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

suteetat said:


> Say, the happy ending in le nozze di Figaro did not quite happened as planned and Contessa turned into Marschallin and her unnamed father was the one who found the secret potion and that Rosina really was Elina Makropulous after all.


OK that's three operas - but what's the sequence? I'm cornfused.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> OK that's three operas - but what's the sequence? I'm cornfused.


Nozze followed by Rosenkavalier. Makropulous Affair storyline would precede Nozze and ended way way after Rosenkavalier.
Contessa and Marschalin would be 2 of the many aliases/manifestation of Elina Makropulous. Feel free to throw in Tosca, La Rondine and all your other favourite soprano characters who did not die on the stage in to the mix and it probably will still work


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

I once read an interesting piece about how La Rondine could be consider the follow up to Boheme. Magda is the grown up Musetta, living comfortably with some rich lord. Prunier is Rodolfo, older and more jaded. It's an interestign comparison if you follow it out. La boheme is about the death of innocence and youth in the pain of the real world. La Rondine asks Puccini's whether you would really give up your comfortable life for the dream of romance... perhaps the reason why the finale has always been so disappointing is that nobody wants to admit that they would probably make the same choice.

I have a tough time with Parzival, as the philosophy and story of the opera diverge wildly from those of Wolfram's work. It wouldn't bother me so much, but I have a deep connection with that book.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> I once read an interesting piece about how La Rondine could be consider the follow up to Boheme.


Good one - I should have thought of that! Very natural sequence.


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm not sure if the following comparison is what you are exactly asking for, but I have always thought that La Fanciulla is the western version of Tosca with a happy ending.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ritter said:


> I'm not sure if the following comparison is what you are exactly asking for, but I have always thought that La Fanciulla is the western version of Tosca with a happy ending.


Interesting! I'll always remember that now .... it works, too. It's the same relationship as Rosenkavalier has with Barber of Seville. Kind of. lol only different.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I've just realised that Falstaff is what Don Giovanni would have turned into if he hadn't been dragged off to hell. Still with a huge appetite for women and wine ... but the looks and charm have gone, and Leporello got sick of the antics.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> I've just realised that Falstaff is what Don Giovanni would have turned into if he hadn't been dragged off to hell. Still with a huge appetite for women and wine ... but the looks and charm have gone, and Leporello got sick of the antics.


That's a fascinating analogy, mama, thanks for the insight. Falstaff is of course one of Shakespeare's greatest inventions, but if you view him objectively, he's really somewhat pathetic, living and banking on past glories that actually never happened in the first place. Hal puts up with him till Hal himself "puts away childish things" as St. Paul advises. And yes, in addition to other things, I'm an intense Shakespeare fan.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I've just realised that Falstaff is what Don Giovanni would have turned into if he hadn't been dragged off to hell. Still with a huge appetite for women and wine ... but the looks and charm have gone, and Leporello got sick of the antics.


lol that's perfect


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