# Applause between movements



## maestro267

I apologise for bringing this up again, but with the applause-fest that is the Proms happening at the moment, I'd like to know how TalkClassical members feel about this controversial issue.

Simply put, are you for or against applause between movements?


----------



## sospiro

Against.

With opera it is OK to applaud certain arias. I think composers actually built in a convenient pause/break in the story so the audience could show their appreciation, but the singers stays in character. What I hate is curtain calls between acts which only happens in some theatres. For me the curtain call is the final part - the poisoned/stabbed/shot hero/villain has miraculously recovered & receives the adulation (or otherwise) of the punters.


----------



## Boccherini

Is that one of those useless rhetorical questions? 
Oh I nearly forgot, some would probably claim that applause is just part of the music, the components which being integrated as part of its superiority, indeed.


----------



## Aramis

No applause until the end.

I'm very annoyed by famous E. Onegin by Giergiev, Hvorostovsky and Fleming, foolish audience gives applause after any significan part, despite the fact that there is no pause in the score. 

It's fashion that comes straight from tradition of shallow and anti-artistic opera and I condemn it into the *** of baboon.


----------



## Toccata

Aramis said:


> ... and I condemn it into the *** of baboon.


Well, quite so. A very fitting way to deal with offenders, I'm sure. Personally, I'd have a row of machine guns lined up all around the Albert Hall ready to shoot anyone who clapped, or even coughed, until at least 10 seconds after the closing bars of the entire work.


----------



## maestro267

I've arranged the virtual firing squad to be ready for anyone who votes 'For' in this poll... 

BTW, I am very much against applause between movements.


----------



## SuperTonic

Loosen up! Does it really matter?

I've heard stories about concerts around the time of Beethoven in which concert goers not only applauded between movements, they booed movements they didn't like. And sometimes they would demand a movement be replayed if they particularly enjoyed it. (This story was related to me by a Music History professor when I was in college, I admitedly don't have any sources to back it up.)

Personally I don't applaud, but I don't hold anything against people who do. And I don't see the point of alienating people who do by making them feel like they are commiting some kind of faux pas. Either they did it because the didn't know any better or because they were genuinely moved by the performance. Everyone who goes to a concert should have an enjoyable experience even if they are not "in the know" about the propper etiquette.


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

Looks like you're speaking of concert performances. If so, don't care.

What I do care very much about is applause on CD of recorded 'live' performances: HATE IT!!!

Have to be very wary of recorded 'live' performances: sometimes the performance is terrific, but any sensible record company will issue CDs with the applause cut off--thankfully!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit: hey, Panther City! How are things in CowTown? Does the Trinity River still have three forks?


----------



## jhar26

Compared to the sound of audience members coughing their insides out like they usually do between movements applause sounds like a nice alternative actually.  Curtain calls between acts in opera don't bother me either. Applause when there's no break in the music annoys me, but when the music stops people should be allowed to show their enthusiasm (or disgust) as far as I'm concerned.

PS: I guess that judging from the comments of others that makes me a bit of a rebel. Having said that, it obviously doesn't take much to be a rebel at a classical music concert.


----------



## Toccata

How about this?

This evening's Prom featured Beethoven's Symphony No 1, Violin Concerto, Symphony No 5, in that order.

Listening to it on BBC Radio 3, the applause in between movements of the Symphony No 1 and the VC was quite modest and didn't spoil things.

So onto the high spot, Symphony No 5. And guess what ...

Horror of horrors. The lousy audience were clapping over the start of the opening bars. Either that or Paavo Jaavi started far too soon. This is a first for me. Did anyone else notice it?


----------



## maestro267

Opal said:


> How about this?
> 
> This evening's Prom featured Beethoven's Symphony No 1, Violin Concerto, Symphony No 5, in that order.
> 
> Listening to it on BBC Radio 3, the applause in between movements of the Symphony No 1 and the VC was quite modest and didn't spoil things.
> 
> So onto the high spot, Symphony No 5. And guess what ...
> 
> Horror of horrors. The lousy audience were clapping over the start of the opening bars. Either that or Paavo Jaavi started far too soon. This is a first for me. Did anyone else notice it?


I think Paavo started too quickly tbh.


----------



## Toccata

maestro267 said:


> I think Paavo started too quickly tbh.


I think you're right. A bit of a shame because it was very good otherwise. Hopefully I'll soon edit it out using Audacity.


----------



## mamascarlatti

sospiro said:


> Against.
> 
> With opera it is OK to applaud certain arias. I think composers actually built in a convenient pause/break in the story so the audience could show their appreciation, but the singers stays in character. What I hate is curtain calls between acts which only happens in some theatres. For me the curtain call is the final part - the poisoned/stabbed/shot hero/villain has miraculously recovered & receives the adulation (or otherwise) of the punters.


I'm with you there. I find it really disturbs my suspension of belief for the evil villain or sighing hero to come out beaming and bowing halfway through the opera. In fact I've got a Trovatore DVD (the Karajan one) where they come out between every scene and I simply can't watch it.

The Met is the worst for premature adulation. Let the music finish already, before you start clapping.


----------



## Nix

Depends on the piece. Back in the day, composers like Mozart and Beethoven wrote music knowing that there would be applause between movements- which is why Beethoven started connecting some of his movements so that there wouldn't be applause. But if he connected movements so that would be the case, then one must assume that all of the disconnected movements were written with applause in mind. Pieces like Beethoven's 7th need applause in between movements to fuel the fire so to speak. With that piece in particular I've always thought the musicians would play so much more enthusiastically if they were encouraged after every movement.

However with modern music, the music is written without applause in mind. In that case, I'd say don't, unless the composer condones it.


----------



## Earthling

Like SuperTonic, I myself don't do it, but I certainly don't mind if others do. It used to be quite a common thing in fact, expected by composers, even _desired_.

As if classical concerts aren't stuffy enough already-- and people wonder why classical music has been stereotyped as being stuffy and pretentious. Its a concert, not a bloody church service.


----------



## Krummhorn

As a performer (church and concert organist), applause between movements is quite distracting. I was appalled at one crowd who insisted in clapping between the four movements of Mendelssohn's Sonata I for organ. 

When doing concerts, I always ask that any applause be held until the conclusion of a 'set' of music ... usually works ... but then ... some cretin will always surprise us.


----------



## Head_case

> Well, quite so. A very fitting way to deal with offenders, I'm sure. Personally, I'd have a row of machine guns lined up all around the Albert Hall ready to shoot anyone who clapped, or even coughed, until at least 10 seconds after the closing bars of the entire work.


This sounds really harsh.

You've really gotta start off by shooting all those sweet little old ladies who wear perfume, just for the evening out at the proms.

They have no idea how the little molecules of their toxic perfumes can precipitate sudden spasms of whooping cough in otherwise male unsuspecting quiet-as-a-mouse listeners.

The confined air in the grandiloquent halls and the air lock in the ventilation system is my major concern. Maybe I need to bring my own oxygen tank when I frequent the proms


----------



## Polednice

I voted 'for' in the poll, but it was a difficult choice.

In theory, I am not at all against applause. However, I think it's appropriateness is _entirely_ circumstantial given the movement it comes after, and I don't think - as far as my own ideas are concerned - audiences can be trusted!

The main I reason I say this is because I think applause between movements needs to match the mood of the piece. Everyone is going to have the chance to erupt in deafening clapping at the very end of a piece in order to say, "Wow! This is orchestra is damn impressive!", and I don't think it's write to make that statement after a tragic movement. For example, when I went to hear the RLPO play the _Manfred_ Symphony, of course their playing was astounding, but I was disappointed by the applause that came after the first movement.

Those first twenty minutes are nothing but a depiction of a character that is the personification of depression - supernatural and lonely; involved in forbidden love; immortal and craving death _etc._, and while the music was amazing, an applause after such a moving section of the piece spoils the atmosphere. The orchestra doesn't need 'encouragement' at that point.

To take another Tchaikovsky example, of course you should clap after the third movement of the Sixth Symphony, if only to make the fourth movement even more ironically tragic! So, I'm almost tempted to be 'against' purely because people won't always get it right, and a piece can be tainted with applause in the wrong place, but it can't be ruined by a lack of it.

[Another pet-peeve of mine are those smug concert-goers who demand on shouting 'Bravo!' or 'Hurrah!' while the last bar of a piece like Tchaik 5 or Rach 2 is still sounding - for God's sake, if you're going to clap between movements or shout out, at least let the bloody music die out after the last note!]


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

mamascarlatti said:


> _Let the music finish already, before you start clapping._


Yeah. What about the guy who just has to show us all how enthusiastic he is when he jumps up first and steps on the final notes of an opera? Bravo? Thumbs down...


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

I do like to vigorously applaude at the end of a piece, like a sports enthusiast cheering on his team.

I attended a lieder-abend (nighttime song concert) and the audience was very well behaved: no one applauded after the first, second or third song: dead silence.

But then, it seemed to everyone (me included) that the vocalist actually wanted the applause after each song (or expected it, anyway); after that it was a clap-fest.

(She did this with kind of an exasperated hint.)


----------



## Sid James

I don't really like applause between movements, but it is sometimes appropriate, as Poldenice suggests. I was recently at a recital where Mendelssohn's _Piano Trio No. 2_ was played. The first movement sounds pretty difficult to play, and it probably is. A fiendish violin solo in particular, if I can remember correctly. The audience clapped at the end & it was quite appropriate.

On the other hand, I was at a performance of Shostakovich's 10th and (at least some of) the audience clapped between each movement. As Krummhorn suggests, this must have been off-putting for the performers. & it (almost) ruined the atmosphere and build up of tension in the piece as well.

So sometimes, it's ok to applaud between movements, sometimes it's not. It really depends on the piece in question. As for opera, I haven't been to one, but I agree that it's better if the applause is kept for after the grand finale. & I don't mind applause at then end of recordings, it gives a sense of finality to the piece, and some atmosphere as well...


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Earthling said:


> As if classical concerts aren't stuffy enough already-- and people wonder why classical music has been stereotyped as being stuffy and pretentious. Its a concert, not a bloody church service.


I think all audiences should do the Mexican Wave between movements, with food and drinks be allowed to be brought into the concert hall and consumed while the musicians perform. Perfectly reasonable, right? (Just like some traditions where folks stand up during the _Hallelujah_ chorus of Handel's oratorio, _The Messiah_). All this would also allow those audiences who have a flatulence problem to relieve themselves without any notice.


----------



## jurianbai

it will be too busy for us then.

we already do too much clapping, even in the end, at least thrice. First is where we clap exactly 1/16 second after the last note. Everybody seem to know exactly that most waited note and we race for it.

secondly is when the conductor or performer make a gesture that it is indeed the last note (by bowing).

after this they will rushly left the stage (I suspect they go to toilet..) but comeback again in two minutes, this time do a proper bowing (slowly). And this is where we must perform the third applause. usually this last procedure can be repeated until one of the side admit defeat (the clapper or the bower).


----------



## GraemeG

Shut the F*** UP!
If the composer wanted applause, he'd have written it in the orchestral parts so the players could do it. Gawd, isn't there a thread running already about the use of silence in music - and everyone says it's so vital, so wonderful? How does anyone consider that clapping during a piece is not aural vandalism? So they did it in the 1800s? Big deal. If you got a fever they 'bled' you to release the bad blood, all of which was crap. No, I don't think we need to adopt 19th century attitudes to things just because they did.

Why should the pause between movements be subject to this intrusion?


> Pieces like Beethoven's 7th need applause in between movements to fuel the fire so to speak.


 Oh yes, I suppose the ending of the Adagietto is improved considerably by a massive burst of cheering audience members _segueing_ in as the last woodwind chord dies away. Because otherwise the musicians wouldn't have the energy for the scherzo?



> Personally I don't applaud, but I don't hold anything against people who do. And I don't see the point of alienating people who do by making them feel like they are commiting some kind of faux pas. Either they did it because the didn't know any better or because they were genuinely moved by the performance. Everyone who goes to a concert should have an enjoyable experience even if they are not "in the know" about the propper etiquette.


No. We don't pay good money to hear some moron clap just 'because he likes it'. It ruins musical effects too many times. Tschaikovsky sets up in the _Pathetique_ a massive emotional clash between the raucous ending of the scherzo and the doom-laden opening of the finale. Half the douchebag audience bursts into applause at the _ffff_ ending of the scherzo, with the result that the opening of the finale is lost altogether until everyone shuts up again. IDIOTS!

And as soon as people think it's OK to clap between movements, by extension that means you can clap anywhere you think there's a pause - or where you think it's ended. So half way through the finale of the _Trout_ quintet - here come the douchebags again. 
Keep this up, and we'll soon find applause in the big pause in the middle of Barber's _Adagio_. There's plenty of time there - no-one's moving - that was a really exciting loud bit - CLAP, CLAP.... oops.

You've come to hear the concert, right? Then LISTEN to the bloody thing. The musicians will tell you when the piece is over. Then, clap til your hands hurt. Meanwhile, SHUDDUP!
G


----------



## dmg

It depends. Often the first movement in a concerto ends with a bang, for example, and I think it is OK to applaud here depending on the performance of the soloist.

I do find it hilarious, though, when this happens, then they start performing again, and people in the audience start looking through their programs...


----------



## Earthling

GraemeG said:


> If the composer wanted applause...


_These_ composers wanted applause...

Brahms: "The first movement and the 2nd [of the Piano Concerto No. 1] were listened to without any kind of emotion. At the end, three hands attempted to fall slowly into another, whereupon, however, a quite distinct hissing from all sides forbade demonstrations."

Mozart: "Right in the middle of the First Allegro came a Passage I knew would please, and the entire audience was sent into raptures - there was a big applaudißement; - and as I knew, when I wrote the passage, what good effect it would make, I brought it once more at the end of the movement - and sure enough there they were: the shouts of Da capo. The Andante was well received as well, but the final Allegro pleased especially - because I had heard that here the final Allegros begin like the first Allegros, namely with all instruments playing and mostly unisono; therefore, I began the movement with just 2 violins playing softly for 8 bars - then suddenly comes a forte - but the audience had, because of the quiet beginning, shushed each other, as I expected they would, and then came the forte - well, hearing it and clapping was one and the same. I was so delighted..."

_Mozart and Brahms: Uncultured imbeciles!_


----------



## GraemeG

Look, I admit the _*rules*_ are a bit elastic for concertos, obviously - not that Brahms appeared to be doing anything but recording the facts - and if an individual recitalist (pianist) for instance is 'playing' for it; well, that's the performers choice to do what he wants with the music.
What's the concerto to which Mozart refers?
G


----------



## Nix

GraemeG said:


> If the composer wanted applause, he'd have written it in the orchestral parts so the players could do it.


That was the entire point I was making. Except from the opposite perspective. If the composer DIDN'T want applause, he wrote it in the orchestral parts to have the players connect movements. Otherwise the composers expected it. One other exception to applause would be if the composer writes a movement that begs to have the audience remain silent (something so profound or moving that to make noise would ruin it- like the Adagietto in Mahler's 5th), then the audience should follow their emotions- they shouldn't by any means be EXPECTED to clap.

_ So they did it in the 1800s? Big deal. If you got a fever they 'bled' you to release the bad blood, all of which was crap. No, I don't think we need to adopt 19th century attitudes to things just because they did._

Now thats just really shoddy reasoning.

_ Oh yes, I suppose the ending of the Adagietto is improved considerably by a massive burst of cheering audience members segueing in as the last woodwind chord dies away. Because otherwise the musicians wouldn't have the energy for the scherzo?_

It looked like this was a response to my Beethoven 7 comment, but as there's neither an Adagietto or Scherzo (or at least any movements labeled as such), I can't be sure. And it's not about energy, it's about enthusiasm. Musicians play better when their audience is receptive, simple as that. They're more focused when they know the audience is actually listening. If what you're suggesting is a profound silence after a quiet ending, then they audience can show they're reception by NOT COUGHING. Now that annoys me.


----------



## Boccherini

SuperTonic said:


> I've heard stories about concerts around the time of Beethoven in which concert goers not only applauded between movements, they booed movements they didn't like. And sometimes they would demand a movement be replayed if they particularly enjoyed it. (This story was related to me by a Music History professor when I was in college, I admitedly don't have any sources to back it up.)


Clapping at premieres is another thing. I definitely find it proper for connoisseurs to critisize by booing or clapping at premieres, and I would definitely be pleased to throw a tomatos crate on Beethoven after the premiere of his 4th, not only because of the downfall (in my opinion) after the 3rd, but also because the Coriolan Overture and Piano Concerto No. 4 were premiered in the same concert. 
However, ruining the overplayed is inappropiate.


----------



## Earthling

GraemeG said:


> Look, I admit the _*rules*_ are a bit elastic for concertos, obviously - not that Brahms appeared to be doing anything but recording the facts - and if an individual recitalist (pianist) for instance is 'playing' for it; well, that's the performers choice to do what he wants with the music.
> What's the concerto to which Mozart refers?
> G


Have no idea what the Mozart piece in question was, but the letter was to his father in 1778 (at age 22). Its quoted by Alex Ross:

"To recap: Up until the beginning of the twentieth century, applause between movements and even during movements was the sign of a knowledgeable, appreciative audience, not of an ignorant one. The biographies of major composers are full of happy reports of what would now be seen as wildly inappropriate applause. Mozart's famous letter to his father in 1778..."

From *HERE*.


----------



## Chris

I am amazed anyone has voted 'For' in this poll. Applause between movements breaks the spell and ruins the emotional buildup. As someone stated above, I couldn't care less what they did in 1820. 

It never fails to amaze me how thoughtless concert goers can be. Like the people who unwrap sweets painfully slowly on the misunderstanding that the high pitched crinkling won't be heard. It's actually like the Chinese water torture. You wait with gritted teeth for the next crinkle. Or the people who think they will be inaudible if they whisper. Don't they realise the hissing sibilance of a whisper is more penetrating than a shout? And don't start me on senior citizens. I was at a recital by the Chilingirian Quartet and all I remember of it is a clonk...clonk...clonk all through the programme. It was a woman, estimated age 106, tapping her walking stick on the floor in time with the music.


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

Chris said:


> _I was at a recital by the Chilingirian Quartet and all I remember of it is a clonk...clonk...clonk all through the programme. It was a woman, estimated age 106, tapping her walking stick on the floor in time with the music._


Damn! What an OUTRAGE!

And the Chilingirian is great.


----------



## GraemeG

Nix said:


> That was the entire point I was making. Except from the opposite perspective. If the composer DIDN'T want applause, he wrote it in the orchestral parts to have the players connect movements. Otherwise the composers expected it.


Doesn't follow. The logic statement 'If A, then B' does not permit the false premise, 'therefore, if not A, therefore not B' 
So, by extension, where there's silence, there can be applause? Ridiculous. And hence the interruption in the middle of the Trout.



> _ So they did it in the 1800s? Big deal. If you got a fever they 'bled' you to release the bad blood, all of which was crap. No, I don't think we need to adopt 19th century attitudes to things just because they did._
> 
> Now thats just really shoddy reasoning.


Why? "They did it in 1780, therefore we should do it today". That's your proposal?



> _ Oh yes, I suppose the ending of the Adagietto is improved considerably by a massive burst of cheering audience members segueing in as the last woodwind chord dies away. Because otherwise the musicians wouldn't have the energy for the scherzo?_
> 
> It looked like this was a response to my Beethoven 7 comment, but as there's neither an Adagietto or Scherzo (or at least any movements labeled as such), I can't be sure.


Sorry, let me pose the question in the right terms. You think the transition from _II Allegretto_ to _III Presto_ is improved by thundering applause in between?



> And it's not about energy, it's about enthusiasm. Musicians play better when their audience is receptive, simple as that. They're more focused when they know the audience is actually listening. If what you're suggesting is a profound silence after a quiet ending, then they audience can show they're reception by NOT COUGHING. Now that annoys me.


Utter silence is more indicative of an appreciative audience than one that makes a lot of noise, that's for sure.
If a performance of Mahler 6 is really powerful, everyone should just sit in the hall in total silence afterwards for 5 minutes, then just quietly get up and leave.
Huge applause at the end of Mahler 6 is the measure of a performance that failed to hit the right emotional note.
G


----------



## Nix

G, not really sure how to respond since you treated all of my points like they were completely separate entities. It's like you had things laid out in context but refused to use it. 

Also, comparing medical treatment to concert etiquette is the stupid part. Two unrelated things.


----------



## GraemeG

Nix said:


> G, not really sure how to respond since you treated all of my points like they were completely separate entities. It's like you had things laid out in context but refused to use it.


 Ah. Individual instances which are lousy examples form a coherent case when considered together. Hmmm.



> Also, comparing medical treatment to concert etiquette is the stupid part. Two unrelated things.


 It's not a comparison, it's an analogy.

An orchestra is not a football team. Maybe a supportive crowd going wild will lift the underdogs to hold off the champions in the season final. Doesn't work with Orchestra v Mahler 5.

G


----------



## Nix

GraemeG said:


> Ah. Individual instances which are lousy examples form a coherent case when considered together. Hmmm.
> G


Thats not an excuse for taking things out of context.

I said SOMETIMES complete silence is a way of showing appreciation- and so you went ahead and said that I was saying that meant we shouldn't applaud at all, but walk out in silence.... even though this entire thread I've been advocating applause for when appropriate?

Do you see how difficult it is to argue with you? (and by difficult I mean frustrating- though I put this explanation in a separate sentence so you might not connect the two).


----------



## World Violist

I'm generally against applause unless it's something really fantastic; I remember being at a performance with such an unbelievable first movement that it got a smattering of applause, and I can respect that.

I don't like these black-and-white answer options... they're ridiculous.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Say, you reach a really powerful point in a piece of music, where you are just struck with awe so that you all you can do is be silent when it ends. It would be really annoying if someone didn't quite view it the same way as you, and simply started cheering, clapping, crying "Bravo!", and get you out of your sublime mood. 

The silences between the music serve as contemplative moments where one meditates on what is past, and anticipates what's to come.


----------



## SuperTonic

Based on the responses in this thread it seems like most of the objections to 'inappropriate' applause during classical music performances seems to come down to it being a distraction. My response to that is, have any of you considered the possibility that it bothers you because you ALLOW it to?

I cannot ever remember an instance where I have been truly moved by a performance and having been distracted by any extraneous sounds from the audience whether appropriate or not. I mainly remember the music and the effect it had on me at the time. Maybe I'm just better at filtering out distractions than most.

And then again, maybe some of you aren't really as in to the performance as you think you are.


----------



## Poppin' Fresh

I don't mind applause in between movements, unless its something egregious like drowning out the transition from the third to fourth movement in Beethoven's 5th. I mean I certainly wouldn't sssh someone applauding or give them a dirty look. That kind of stuff is unnecessarily mean and does turn people off from attending concerts. 

However, I myself don't feel need in to clap before the end of a piece and interrupt it's atmosphere. I don't really understand the impulse. I listen to music on my stereo and become overcome with emotion all the time, but don't impulsively put my hands together. One can show as much appreciation as they desire for the musicians after it is over.


----------



## jhansen_violin

Interesting thread. Overall, I do not like applause between movements. I am going to consider it two ways. As a listener and as a performer.

As a performer, I appreciate the applause, but honestly don't like it. It is distracting and disruptive. I have been working to build a mood throughout a movement, and it is broken by the applause - not just for the audience but also for me! The piece is not over. The thought not yet completed. It is like trying to tell a joke that keeps getting interrupted. The delivery is ruined. It will no longer be as funny or as enjoyable.



SuperTonic said:


> Based on the responses in this thread it seems like most of the objections to 'inappropriate' applause during classical music performances seems to come down to it being a distraction. My response to that is, have any of you considered the possibility that it bothers you because you ALLOW it to?


I don't think this is true. Especially for lengthy applause between movements. But think of it this way...Would you mind if someone stopped in the middle of a movement, allowed the audience to applause, and then started up again? Now, the performer stopped after the musical phrase resolved, so why should it really bother you? Naturally, because the piece is not finished! Likewise, the piece is not finished until all movements are performed.

The Bach Sonata No.2 in a minor for unaccompanied violin comes to mind. The end of the 1st movement ends on a V chord (I'm not sure if everyone is familiar with music theory?) For those who are not: a piece feels finished when you reach the I chord (or tonic) of a piece. Think of the V (or dominant chord) like a question and the tonic an answer. It won't feel resolved until it goes back to the tonic.

Bach, in the 2nd Sonata, does not resolve the 5 chord until the 2nd measure of the 2nd movement, so you really see how the piece is not finished. To clap between movements ruins the harmonic flow and the genius of Bach!

Which brings me to the listener in me. It would be absolutely painful to have to wait for the resolution of the 5 chord! Erg! It's like going to the last phrase in a piece, and then....leaving out the last note, or at least, waiting a few minutes to play it.

I could go on...but I won't.


----------



## jhansen_violin

Ah, I really must go on...just a bit.

There has been a little discussion about what they "used" to do. This really would be a valid argument, if the composer did indeed _mean_ for the pieces to be interrupted by applause. We couldn't rightfully argue that you shouldn't applause, since the composer wrote it with the applause in mind!

However, we have to look at history. Premiers of works, concerts, etc.. these were social gatherings. Everyone spoke to one another, paying very little attention to the music during the performance. Are we to suggest that composers wrote their music intending for people to talk over it the entire time? Is that why Beethoven wanted to use a bigger orchestra? So some of us could hear it over all of the chatter? ;-) I don't think anyone will argue whether you should or shouldn't strike up a friendly conversation with the person sitting beside you during a concert.

Not until Wagner did we have the concert setting that we are all used to now. He demanded complete quiet in his performances. Now, that practice is applied to all performances because really it is the only sensible way to attend a concert!


----------



## SuperTonic

Let's be clear hear that we are only discussing applause between movements. Applause or other excessive audience noise in the middle of a movement would obviously be a distraction because it would directly impact my ability to enjoy the music. Between the movements when there is no musical sound coming from the performer(s) that is not the case. 
And as far as what the expectations of composers throughout history have been, I'm pretty sure someone earlier in this thread provided quotes from several composers, Mozart and Brahms among them, indicating that they wanted to hear applause between movements. I'm sure the expectations of different composers were quite different, some would have wanted applause and other not, so I don't think that is really an adequate guide as to what one should do, at least in a general sense.
In cases when a movement doesn't end on the tonic, I'd be very surprised to hear applause from an audience, even one with no experience with classical concerts. Its been my experience that audiences are, for the most part, sensitive to the mood created by the music and are reluctant to start applauding when the piece or movement ends in a harmonically or otherwise unsettled way. I would think as long as the performer(s) started on the next movement within a reasonable amount of time, that audience applause would not generally be a problem. Of course, that is just my own personal experience with going to concerts. And anyway that is a very rare situation.


----------



## jhansen_violin

Well, first of all, the reason I mention the fact that the audience, not usually, but _always_ spoke and interacted with one another during a performance during Beethovens time was simply discredit the notion of "because they did it, that means we can too" . Yes they clapped between movements....but they also made a lot of other annoying and distracting noise the entire time. I don't think we should follow their example.



SuperTonic said:


> I've heard stories about concerts around the time of Beethoven in which concert goers not only applauded between movements, they booed movements they didn't like.


My entire argument with the Bach Sonata was to indicate that a piece is not finished until all movements have been played. Maybe you don't realize how much applause between movements can take away from the performance itself. There is no way you can "know" it would have been different if it hadn't been interrupted. However, as a professional and experienced performer (who knows many other professional performers as well), I can tell you that it _does_ affect the performers. The musical mood has been broken and therefore changes how we perform/connect the next movement with the former.

Music is constantly changing. How we see it and interpret it is all in the moment. If the context is interrupted, then the performance is bound the change for the negative.


----------



## GraemeG

Nix said:


> I said SOMETIMES complete silence is a way of showing appreciation- and so you went ahead and *said that I was saying that meant we shouldn't applaud at all, but walk out in silence*.... even though this entire thread I've been advocating applause for when appropriate?
> 
> Do you see how difficult it is to argue with you? (and by difficult I mean frustrating- though I put this explanation in a separate sentence so you might not connect the two).


You gotta read what I wrote. The bolding above is simply not true. I _agreed_ with you about silence, and then gave what *I* thought was the ultimate example of 'silence as tribute' - a silent end to Mahler 6. That's all.
Relax and read what Julia's written - she's nailed it.
cheers,
G


----------



## emiellucifuge

SuperTonic said:


> Loosen up! Does it really matter?
> 
> I've heard stories about concerts around the time of Beethoven in which concert goers not only applauded between movements, they booed movements they didn't like. And sometimes they would demand a movement be replayed if they particularly enjoyed it. (This story was related to me by a Music History professor when I was in college, I admitedly don't have any sources to back it up.)
> 
> Personally I don't applaud, but I don't hold anything against people who do. And I don't see the point of alienating people who do by making them feel like they are commiting some kind of faux pas. Either they did it because the didn't know any better or because they were genuinely moved by the performance. Everyone who goes to a concert should have an enjoyable experience even if they are not "in the know" about the propper etiquette.


'Does it really matter?' Well maybe not to some people but why ruin the complete absorption and trance some people experience while listening to music.

I fully believe your story about the booing audiences but concert practise and etiquette has evolved over the years. In the time of Beethoven it was also common to have a break between movements. Thankfully concert-behaviour has fully kept up with ideologies of the composers and as a music gained a new definition and a new expressive function - so have the audiences raised the level of respect necessary to such a personal form of expression.

We have Mendelssohn to thank for this.


----------



## gmubandgeek

Generally I am against the audience clapping between movements, however there are times in which clapping, and/or laughter is appropriate. If I were conducting or performing a Haydn symphony (depending on which one), or "The Joke" string quartet I would almost be offended if I didn't hear a chuckle or laugh as that is the intent of the composer. He purposely wrote certain things to be funny (other composers did this as well). Another time for clapping is during the "Radetzky March." On the same token, I do get annoyed with people who clap between movements or during a piece and destroying the musical ambiance. I am still waiting to hear a performance of "The Stars and Stripes" in which people will refrain from clapping after the piccolo soli and therefore drowning out the repeat and the grand finale.


----------



## Edward Elgar

Anyone who claps in between movements should be shot. End of.


----------



## Chris

Edward Elgar said:


> Anyone who claps in between movements should be shot. End of.


That's a bit extreme. How about high pressure watercannon?


----------



## bassClef

Don't break the spell - that includes clapping, coughing and chair-scraping.

No-one else in the audience is going to think you merely want to show appreciation if you clap between movements, they will just think you're ill-educated. 

I think the whole audience should just smile broadly instead to give the orchestra some encouragement


----------



## Edward Elgar

Chris said:


> That's a bit extreme. How about high pressure watercannon?


I was being slightly over the top there!

Mmm, you need a method that doesn't spoil the performance for the rest of the audience. However I do like the idea of a riot squad breaking in with a water cannon soaking someone who started clapping!


----------



## Debussy007

I still remember in third grade. We had a guest conductor come in trying to get the kids into music. At first, we applauded every time the music stopped. But, the thing was, there was always a surprise or something new, and actually the piece wasn't over. He told us after that piece, "Never applaud until the conductor turns to you." I think I still follow that rule to the letter.


----------



## macrylinda1

mamascarlatti said:


> I'm with you there. I find it really disturbs my suspension of belief for the evil villain or sighing hero to come out beaming and bowing halfway through the opera. In fact I've got a Trovatore DVD (the Karajan one) where they come out between every scene and I simply can't watch it.
> 
> The Met is the worst for premature adulation. Let the music finish already, before you start clapping.


Depends on the piece. Back in the day, composers like Mozart and Beethoven wrote music knowing that there would be applause between movements- which is why Beethoven started connecting some of his movements so that there wouldn't be applause. But if he connected movements so that would be the case, then one must assume that all of the disconnected movements were written with applause in mind. Pieces like Beethoven's 7th need applause in between movements to fuel the fire so to speak. With that piece in particular I've always thought the musicians would play so much more enthusiastically if they were encouraged after every movement.
___________________


----------



## Yoshi

You don't know how many times I was the only one in an audience that DIDN'T clap between movements. Or at least the only one from the group of people around me, which means that they all looked at me like I was being rude or something. Very embarassing...


----------



## Chris

Jan said:


> You don't know how many times I was the only one in an audience that DIDN'T clap between movements. Or at least the only one from the group of people around me, which means that they all looked at me like I was being rude or something. Very embarassing...


Jan, you should have given them a look of such withering disapproval that THEY felt embarrassed and their untimely handclapping died into a shamed silence.

If we all did what we felt like doing, social gatherings would be marred by buttock scratching, earwax picking and flatulent reports. Those who feel an inclination to clap before a work has ended should reflect that they are going to annoy at the least a sizeable minority of their fellow concertgoers, and restrain themselves.


----------



## Yoshi

Chris said:


> Jan, you should have given them a look of such withering disapproval that THEY felt embarrassed and their untimely handclapping died into a shamed silence.
> 
> If we all did what we felt like doing, social gatherings would be marred by buttock scratching, earwax picking and flatulent reports. Those who feel an inclination to clap before a work has ended should reflect that they are going to annoy at the least a sizeable minority of their fellow concertgoers, and restrain themselves.


I should try that next time! Actualy I've educated some of the people that came with me to concerts before, they had no idea when they were supposed to applause :lol:.

I completely agree, I've seen the confused looks of performers when they received an applause between movements. But even more infuriating is when people clap while they are still performing . Yes I've been to a classical concert where people thought the music was finished, they clapped and then the music started again... oh well.


----------



## drth15

*applause between movements*

Seems appropriate in a romantic concerto. 
Much prefer not to hear it in symphonic works.


----------



## PicklePepperPiper

Well, I find it impossible not to let it rip after Dvorak Cello Concerto, first movement - it's compulsive, I swear!

What irritates me is the younger ones playing the "first to clap wins" game. Agreed with comments above, until the conducter relaxes and acknowledges the music is over, don't you dare breathe!
-PPP


----------



## Boccherini

drth15 said:


> Seems appropriate in a romantic concerto.
> Much prefer not to hear it in symphonic works.


And why is that?


----------



## Argus

PicklePepperPiper said:


> Well, I find it impossible not to let it rip after Dvorak Cello Concerto, first movement - it's compulsive, I swear!
> 
> What irritates me is the younger ones playing the "first to clap wins" game. Agreed with comments above, until the conducter relaxes and acknowledges the music is over, don't you dare breathe!
> -PPP


The 'last to stop clapping wins' is a better game. I like to use either the slow clap with the cupped hands for extra loudness or the extended golf clap. :wave:


----------



## sospiro

I think I was really lucky when I saw Boccanegra at ROH. No curtain calls only applause between acts, applause in the right places for arias & total silence in the right places as well. The silences were awe inspiring.

I'm reading a biography of Verdi & some of his letters are quoted. The première of _Ernani _was at Teatro la Fenice, Venice & he wrote to a friend in Milan:



> *Ernani, which was produced yesterday, had quite a success. If I had singers who were, I don't say sublime, but at least able to sing in key, Ernani would have been as successful as Nabucco and I Lombardi were in Milan...
> 
> There were three curtain calls after the first act, one after the second, three after the third and three or four at the end of the opera.*


I don't care if it did happen in Verdi's day, I still prefer no curtain calls until the end.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Pro: the opportunity to show appreciation between movements seems to allow for a less stodgily formal approach- no less a figure than Stokowski tried to encourage it.

Con: it multiplies that possibility that someone's cheering could step over the music while still being played, as pointed out in this post.

Tiebreaker: the interests of the performers, which should count for much (and in this instance, be decisive). A couple of generations of the "avoid-applause-between-movements" protocol has made musicians most comfortable with this approach. Unless given dispensation to act otherwise, I'll respect _their_ wishes...:tiphat:


----------



## trazom

It doesn't bother me as much as applause during an aria, just because the soprano is done singing doesn't mean the orchestra is finished playing.

But to answer another poster's question



> What's the concerto to which Mozart refers?


His "Paris" Symphony #31.


----------



## Listener

I don't go to many concerts so it's not much of an issue for me. When I do go it doesn't bother me when people clap but I never do between movements.


----------



## Lukecash12

Honestly, I don't have a position. Any time I have seen people applaud between movements, I wasn't irritated by it, but on the other hand, people who refrain from clapping until a piece is over have reasons for what they do as well.


----------



## david johnson

applaud away. it means living souls heard the music and the art has found its way into more hearts.

dj


----------



## GraemeG

david johnson said:


> applaud away. it means living souls heard the music and the art has found its way into more hearts.
> 
> dj


Heck, why even wait until the music has finished? You hear a nice chord, attractive harmonic progression, shout 'bravo', stamp your feet, whistle. Go for it!
G


----------



## Lukecash12

GraemeG said:


> Heck, why even wait until the music has finished? You hear a nice chord, attractive harmonic progression, shout 'bravo', stamp your feet, whistle. Go for it!
> G


While it might irritate me being distracted by something like that, I would actually find it quite humorous if someone next to me decided to do that.


----------



## david johnson

GraemeG said:


> Heck, why even wait until the music has finished? You hear a nice chord, attractive harmonic progression, shout 'bravo', stamp your feet, whistle. Go for it!
> G


 HAHA...not the same as applauding 'twixt movements. i think you know that 

dj


----------



## GraemeG

david johnson said:


> HAHA...not the same as applauding 'twixt movements. i think you know that
> 
> dj


Ah, but it's just the thin end of the wedge, isn't it? People clap between movements, all well and lovely. But go and hear someone singing _nessun dorma_ and these days the applause starts before the piece has finished. And then, of course, the audience want it sung again, presumably because they drowned it out the first time with their idiot clapping.

No, I'm firmly in the 'shut the f*** up' camp when it comes to the atmosphere of musical performances.
Clap at the end of the show. As long as you like. I went to recital by Maurizio Pollini once where the ovation lasted twenty minutes at the end. Sure beats clapping half way through Schubert's G major sonata...
G


----------



## david johnson

a 20 minute ovation is like a 20 minute orgasm...someone was really satisfied


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

wow yes yes yes


----------



## Capeditiea

i don't mind it live... but on a recording... (like a few i have...) they end up appluading like crazy screaming BRAVO! and such... which then while being entranced by the music... i find that it would be nice if they do not have it... i mean the recording of Oberon... was still amazing and teleported me to the show... (in a mental sense) but the audio quality was horrifying for the first act. and the applause happened like every few songs. but still i love Oberon. (i probably will get more recordings of it.)


----------

