# Ask Your Questions About the Mass Form Here



## regenmusic

I went looking for a thread that talked about the various forms of Mass that one might
find in the body of classical music and I couldn't find one.

I know there is the Wiki page on the Mass form:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(music)

but it is a bit thick and I think individuals' questions might be a better
way to wade through solutions to understanding what is going on.

For instance, is it right to think that a time discussing communion is to
be found in a Mass composed by Bach?

Or, the Passion of Christ, is that to be found in a Mass?

What about the texts that we are likely to hear? Are there a few that come
in handy when listening to any given composers Mass?

Is it easy to find the text of any composer's Mass online?


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## Headphone Hermit

regenmusic said:


> For instance, is it right to think that a time discussing communion is to be found in a Mass composed by Bach?


Please can you clarify - what does that question mean?


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## Headphone Hermit

regenmusic said:


> What about the texts that we are likely to hear? Are there a few that come
> in handy when listening to any given composers Mass?
> 
> Is it easy to find the text of any composer's Mass online?


Yes. In the majority of settings (but not all), the texts refer to the latin prayers that are identified in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(music) and the texts are easily found by following the links in the wiki page you refer to ... except, oddly enough, the Kyrie where the link 'dips' - try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie


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## regenmusic

Headphone Hermit said:


> Please can you clarify - what does that question mean?


It doesn't seem to be quoting my paragraph above your question.

Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic:

For instance, is it right to think that a time discussing communion is to be found in a Mass composed by Bach?

Communion is when the person takes the words of Jesus literally about eating His body
and drinking His blood. It's part of every Catholic and Orthodox mass. I'm wondering if
its represented in some way in the mass of the composers.


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^ I know what the sacrament of communion is ... but 'a time discussing communion' just doesn't make sense to me.

The settings of the mass are, as the wiki page explains, generally a setting of some of the key, fixed, prayers of the mass and not a free handling of themes associated with Christian beliefs


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## regenmusic

Don't be so literal....I mean "depicting" communion....or symbolizing communion.


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## Taggart

Bach was a Lutheran so the appropriate wikl article is this.

You might also like to consider the article on the Anaphora

In the Lutheran tradition, there would be responses to the Anaphora whereas in the Catholic tradition the part from the _Sanctus _to the Great Amen would be silent except possibly for the Benedictus sung after the consecration.

The Distribution would follow the _Agnus Dei_ but the _Domine non sum dignus_ is omitted. The _Nunc Dimitis_ is sung as a post communion canticle.

This post has details of the _Liber Usualis_ which contains the plain chant and texts for most masses and the divine office.


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## Headphone Hermit

regenmusic said:


> Don't be so literal....I mean "depicting" communion....or symbolizing communion.


well, that makes even less sense - for precisely the reason I have already given


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## Taggart

Just had a thought. There is a (much simpler) wiki article on the ordinary which highlights the difference between the ordinary (fixed) parts and the proper or prayers of the day.

The other major item is the requiem mass where there some changes to the format. This also shows the source of a number of extra items - _Pie Jesu, Dies Irae, Libera me_ and _In paradisum_ - that we come across as separate works.


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## regenmusic

I guess then the classical music "Mass" is not the same as the mass of the every day Catholic.
The taking of communion is the high point of the mass. That's all I was trying to get at. There
must be some kind of liturgical music that mentions in some way the eucharist.


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## Taggart

True. The everyday Catholic Mass is not usually sung and when it it, it usually in English. Where Latin (or Greek) *is* used, it tends to be plain chant.

You will find a range of Eucharistic hymns here - mostly in Latin. Otherwise google for Eucharistic hymns.


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## Xaltotun

Sometimes I'm boggled by the "extra parts" that some composers add to a mass. (That is, something that's not a Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, or Agnus Dei.) Ones that come to my mind are Liszt, who has a "Graduale"-part in his Hungarian Coronation Mass, and Gounod, who has a "Domine Salvum"-part in his St. Cecile Mass. Are these, uh, "allowed"? How much can a composer experiment with a mass, anyway?


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## GioCar

This is what has been ruling the Catholic Mass since the Second Vatican Council:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

see primarily Chapter VI for music, but also elsewhere in the document. Quite an interesting reading.

In answer to Xaltotun's questions, nowadays a composer has pretty much freedom to experiment, and the use of sacred music works of the past such as those mentioned are pretty much allowed in the Liturgy, as long as they "promote the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful". A very broad concept, imo.


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## Taggart

The _graduale_ - more normally gradual - is part of the proper of the mass. it is sung after the reading or chanting of the Epistle and before the Alleluia, or, during penitential seasons, before the Tract. These extras are shown in the section headed proprium in the article on the Ordinary.

The _Domine Salvum_ is a prayer for the French king - see wiki. It is a local use of the French church and corresponds to the prayers for the British monarch that used to be said after mass in England.

Returning to the OP's question about communion. There are two items - the Communion itself and the Postcommunion prayer said quietly in normal masses. The Communion is usually an antiphon not necessarily Eucharistic in character e.g. the _Lux Aeterna_ of the Requiem Mass.

One genuine piece of experimentation is the _Pie Jesu_ found in some Requiems.


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## Xaltotun

Taggart said:


> The _graduale_ - more normally gradual - is part of the proper of the mass. it is sung after the reading or chanting of the Epistle and before the Alleluia, or, during penitential seasons, before the Tract. These extras are shown in the section headed proprium in the article on the Ordinary.
> 
> The _Domine Salvum_ is a prayer for the French king - see wiki. It is a local use of the French church and corresponds to the prayers for the British monarch that used to be said after mass in England.
> 
> Returning to the OP's question about communion. There are two items - the Communion itself and the Postcommunion prayer said quietly in normal masses. The Communion is usually an antiphon not necessarily Eucharistic in character e.g. the _Lux Aeterna_ of the Requiem Mass.
> 
> One genuine piece of experimentation is the _Pie Jesu_ found in some Requiems.


Mr. Taggart, thank you most kindly for your superb reply and links!!


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## Xaltotun

GioCar said:


> This is what has been ruling the Catholic Mass since the Second Vatican Council:
> 
> http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
> 
> see primarily Chapter VI for music, but also elsewhere in the document. Quite an interesting reading.
> 
> In answer to Xaltotun's questions, nowadays a composer has pretty much freedom to experiment, and the use of sacred music works of the past such as those mentioned are pretty much allowed in the Liturgy, as long as they "promote the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful". A very broad concept, imo.


Thanks to you likewise, GioCar!!


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