# Controversial Opera Opinions



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Hasn't been a whole lot of controversy lately, so I thought I'd spice things up a bit :devil: The premise is straightforward enough: post a few of your feather-ruffling opera-related opinions. Additionally, you are free to debate some of the opinions which others have listed. Only rule is: make sure you are respectful of others and their opinions (though it's fine if things get a little heated as long as the lid stays on. I'll ask that the moderators be a little bit lenient in that regard).

I'll start with a few of mine
1) Post-prime Callas was a mezzo and should have been singing Carmen, Azucena or Amneris rather than bel canto coloratura roles (even with that eargasmic portamento.....). 
2) Enrique Caruso is overrated. His timbre was very metallic, not all that pleasing to the ear despite his wonderful technique. 
3) Martina Arroyo > Leontyne Price. Both had lovely voices, but Arroyo's singing was much more elegant, balancing graceful, feminine, lyrical singing with natural power and a purple velvet timbre. 
4) Most mezzo Adelgisas are out of character. Adelgisa is a young, innocent druidic girl training to become a priestess, yet most of the mezzos who sing it sound more like Norma's aunt than her successor. She is best sung by either a soprano or a _light_ mezzo (a la DiDonato). 
5) Marilyn Horne is a contralto in disguise with her smoked black tea timbre which almost sounds like a countertenor. 
6) The Duke of Mantua should be sung by a _spinto_ tenor with a dark, masculine timbre. He is supposed to be seductive, rake-ish and a little bit narcissistic, not a thin, whiny, breathless lover boy. 
7) Unless they have a freakishly dark timbre, no soprano should be touching Carmen with a 39 and a half foot poll.
8) The Barber of Seville is insanely overrated. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad opera, but Rossini has written so much better (Semiramide, L'Italiana en Algeri, etc).
9) Italian opera is infinitely better than Austrio-German opera. The former is so much warmer, more sensual and more legato while the latter comes across to me as cold and mechanical. 
10) Eastern European opera is drastically underrated and shares many parallels with Italian opera that Germanic opera does not. However, it's lack of coloratura take it back a few pegs. In both regards, I'm probably spoiled by all the bel canto specialists I listen to and their ability to effortless switch from delicate/sensual to dramatic/aggressive, high tessitura to low tessitura and even change the timbre of their voice depending on the tessitura of the current passage they are singing.
12) As a singer, just listening to Strauss makes me feel as if I'm about to have a vocal hemorrhage.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

-Opera fandom should be fun. Too much obsession with ranking, instead of linking.

-I don't understand why nobody discusses amateur/live/pirate/bootleg recordings, why people are so obsessed with "perfect" recording quality (unless it's from 1900, in which case crappy sound gets a total pass from the cognoscenti regardless of actual quality of music), and it's sad that people miss out on great voices/performances because of that. 

-For that matter, I don't really like non-live studio recordings at all. Artificial and weird.

-I find it very annoying when the orchestra plays out of tune, clashing with my favorite singers sometimes in certain moments or on certain nights, and I really think the conductors need to be more careful about that


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> -Opera fandom should be fun. Too much obsession with ranking, instead of linking.


I don't find the two mutually exclusive, but I definitely see your point, and I try not to let my being spoiled by Sutherland, Obraztsova, Ramey, etc keep me from enjoying other performances (though this is hard sometimes!)



> -I don't understand why nobody discusses amateur/live/pirate/bootleg recordings, why people are so obsessed with "perfect" recording quality


I'm definitely one of those people. it's hard to explain really. kind of like when you have a favorite meal or drink and any one detail being off completely throws it off. developing tastes in general are often accompanied by increased perfectionism



> (unless it's from 1900, in which case crappy sous a total pass from the cognoscenti regardless of actual quality of music), and it's sad that people miss out on great voices/performances because of that.nd get


agreed!



> -For that matter, I don't really like non-live studio recordings at all. Artificial and weird.


I prefer studio recordings because it's cleaner and allows for more attention to detail. on stage, you only get one shot, and though any respectable opera singer can sing well on stage, changes of them getting _every single note_ perfectly are very slim.



> -I find it very annoying when the orchestra plays out of tune, clashing with my favorite singers sometimes in certain moments or on certain nights, and I really think the conductors need to be more careful about that


indeed, but what _really_ pisses me off is when they pump up the orchestra like a rock concert and expect _lyric_ sopranos and tenors to sing over it as if they're performing Wagner.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Enrique Caruso is overrated. His timbre was very metallic, not all that pleasing to the ear despite his wonderful technique.


Caruso's Spanish now? That should cause controversy, in Naples at least! :lol:

I think his voice became even heavier and thicker and his singing more strenuous (which it isn't at all on the earliest recordings) as he aged, and I'm also surprised that anyone finds this late Caruso voice an attractive sound. I wouldn't characterise his timbre as 'metallic', which to me at least means a bright, pure sound rather than a heavy, dull one. Still, I think we probably agree. Is Caruso overrated? Of course. You may live to see the day when hysterical idolatry of Caruso, already a kind of folk memory, is regarded merely as a historical curiosity and a relic of the time when sound recording first became part of the mass media, rather than as a true reflection of his worth as an artist. When I was younger than you, late teens or thereabouts, it was another dead tenor whose overratedness annoyed me, namely Beniamino Gigli; it wasn't as a matter of principle that I was annoyed, but because I had been misled by what passed as standard reference works in those days into spending money I could ill afford on complete opera sets in which he starred.* (I remember a Boheme, but there were a couple of others.) He indulged in his usual annoying mannerisms, the rest of the cast were mediocre and instantly forgettable. I largely gave up on complete opera recordings until collapsing CD prices and the internet made the purchase of complete operas a mostly risk-free enterprise. Anyway, the point of this digression is that Gigli idolatry, still prevalent a generation ago in the hearts of many opera enthusiasts as well as in reference works written a decade or two earlier, is now almost extinct, to the extent that a forthcoming biography of the tenor, the result of many years work, may now not be forthcoming due to lack of interest among the reading and listening public! Of course, Caruso was a greater vocal phenomenon and a more influential figure than Gigli, but it's not impossible that his reputation could be similarly obliterated by the passage of time- even though the Caruso cult in its present form rests not on the nostalgia of those who heard him live but on the enthusiasm of record collectors with an antiquarian bent.

* I also acquired the Pertile Aida in the same way. Don't get me started! 



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 6) The Duke of Mantua should be sung by a _spinto_ tenor with a dark, masculine timbre.


What, like Caruso? :devil:


BalalaikaBoy said:


> He is supposed to be seductive, rake-ish and a little bit narcissistic, not a thin, whiny, breathless lover boy.


Either could work. A tenore di grazia might be better at conveying the Duke's superficiality and lack of character. At least he wouldn't risk sounding inappropriately 'heroic'. It depends whether you want exciting vocal sonorities or a convincing portrayal of a slimy, dissolute aristo.



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 9) Italian opera is infinitely better than Austrio-German opera. The former is so much warmer, more sensual and more legato while the latter comes across to me as cold and mechanical.
> 10) Eastern European opera is drastically underrated...
> 12) As a singer, just listening to Strauss makes me feel as if I'm about to have a vocal hemorrhage.


:clap:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> -Opera fandom should be fun. Too much obsession with ranking, instead of linking.


The ranking thing _is_ fun, at least to those of us with a certain kind of nerdy mindset. People who go about it in a non-fun, overly competitive way probably bring the same attitude to everything else they do, so it's not really the ranking of operas/ singers/ records in lists that's the problem. It keeps me off the streets, anyway! 



graziesignore said:


> -I don't understand why nobody discusses amateur/live/pirate/bootleg recordings, why people are so obsessed with "perfect" recording quality


You may have answered your own question regarding the lack of popularity of live recordings. As far as bootlegs or anything not 'officially' released on CD is concerned, the problem may be more to do with lack of availability. Stuff pops up on youtube, but you never know when it might be taken down again by the powers that be. It does mean that anything not given an official release on CD may tend to be more ephemeral and thus harder to discuss with other people, who are less likely to be familiar with it than with the 'standard' studio performances on CD. They are missing out, for sure.



graziesignore said:


> (unless it's from 1900, in which case crappy sound gets a total pass from the cognoscenti regardless of actual quality of music), and it's sad that people miss out on great voices/performances because of that.


Well, since it's impossible to hear early recordings in modern sound, we have to make the best of it. I'm confused by the second part of your sentence, _'and it's sad that people miss out on great voices/performances because of that'_- are you implying that the 'cognoscenti', whoever they are, miss out on 'great voices/ performances' because they aren't in 'crappy sound?' As in, 'I've just been watching the Three Tenors' Christmas Concert and I was blown away by the vocal splendour and sheer artistic integrity on display, but sadly I had to switch it off during 'Let It Snow' because the 3D stereo surround sound really offended me'. Maybe these mysterious cognoscenti are the same people who think that 


graziesignore said:


> I find it very annoying when the orchestra plays out of tune, clashing with my favorite singers sometimes in certain moments or on certain nights, and I really think the conductors need to be more careful about that


is a controversial position?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

"Historic sound" recordings are not for me even if I
Am otherwise miss out on legendary singers. I respect them without having a strong desire to listen. I'm no audiophile and I'm
No snob. I've tried these recordings and I simply cannot hear the qualities that make early singers legendary when the sound quality is poor


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

My 10 cents: Too many opera "fans" don't actually like or know opera. They turn up because its fashionable (at least in some circles, and they think it gives them some sort of cachet). Probably doesn't apply to this forum where the opposite problem applies: we are so fixated that we spend hours staring at computer screens and enjoying opera at third or fourth hand rather than sitting down and listening. I prefer not to have opera on as background music, so I am typing this to silence.
I am going to shut down my computer and turn on my hifi. 
Good night!


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

> Stuff pops up on youtube, but you never know when it might be taken down again by the powers that be.


Just make a recording of it, then. (I mean, it's already not going to be super pristine sound quality or anything, but there are ways to record the sound from a Youtube video and voom, it goes into my iTunes playlist...)

I'm a fan of certain singers who never officially recorded a lot, and when someone offers up something recorded in Caracas in 1971 sounding like the microphone was under water, I'm all, "Yes please." How can you not want to trade imperfect notes and sound with the thrill of live performance and the insight you get on performers and orchestras and audiences over time? Well, that's just me.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 3) Martina Arroyo > Leontyne Price. Both had lovely voices, but Arroyo's singing was much more elegant, balancing graceful, feminine, lyrical singing with natural power and a purple velvet timbre.


Arroyo is very underrated soprano!



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 8) The Barber of Seville is insanely overrated. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad opera, but Rossini has written so much better (Semiramide, L'Italiana en Algeri, etc).


Word!



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 9) Italian opera is infinitely better than Austrio-German opera. The former is so much warmer, more sensual and more legato while the latter comes across to me as cold and mechanical.


Well, "infinitely" and "cold and mechanical" is your personal touch on the subject. You are comparing ice-cream to bacon. I prefer Italian opera, but think about Rossini being accused (in 1820s) of writing operas in German style, heavily orchestrated (Semiramide and Ermione!)



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 10) Eastern European opera is drastically underrated and shares many parallels with Italian opera that Germanic opera does not...
> 12) As a singer, just listening to Strauss makes me feel as if I'm about to have a vocal hemorrhage.


Amen!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Just make a recording of it, then. (I mean, it's already not going to be super pristine sound quality or anything, but there are ways to record the sound from a Youtube video and voom, it goes into my iTunes playlist...)
> 
> I'm a fan of certain singers who never officially recorded a lot, and when someone offers up something recorded in Caracas in 1971 sounding like the microphone was under water, I'm all, "Yes please." How can you not want to trade imperfect notes and sound with the thrill of live performance and the insight you get on performers and orchestras and audiences over time? Well, that's just me.


Quite right! I probably have more complete opera recordings courtesy of Videoder or Mediagetter than I do on CD now. The point I was trying to make is that such intermittently publicly available recordings don't have the high profile that better known studio recordings do, so it's fairly fruitless to try to discuss them here where the vast majority are about as unadventurous in seeking out lesser known recordings as it's possible to be- though the opera youtube thread is a useful resource, where bootleg records have made it to youtube.

Singers who 'never officially recorded a lot'- amen! It's quite shocking how easily it is for very significant artists to be forgotten completely because their officially recorded legacy is slim or nonexistent. If I discover them at all, it's usually because I'm on the trail of some rarely recorded opera, and then I get to hit two birds with one stone: I hear a work that's new to me, and discover an excellent singer I would probably never have encountered otherwise. Old RTF broadcasts from the 50s and 60s are an especially rich source of both great singing and rare repertoire. To take a fairly topical example, insofar as we are voting on Samson et Dalila in the recommended opera CDs thread, the greatest Dalila, Hélène Bouvier, seems to have made relatively few studio recordings and is perhaps underrated for that reason, but she did sing on the radio: she is the Marcelline on a remarkable (and unique?) 1952 broadcast recording of Bruneau's L'Attaque du Moulin. This recording (available on Malibran) was an exciting discovery for me, mostly for the powerfully acted and expressive Dominique of Fernand Faniard, a dramatic tenor who made a grand total of zero studio recordings, not counting two sides as a baritone. (The sole Faniard recital disc available, which I ordered immediately, is taken from broadcast tapes preserved by his son.) This L'Attaque du Moulin also features the excellent bass baritone and prolific broadcaster Lucien Lovano as the enemy captain: I'm not sure whether Lovano made studio recordings or not, but most or possibly all of his many recordings that I've heard were broadcasts. Perhaps it is the radio provenance of these recordings and their availability on niche labels only, that makes this arguably greatest of Wozzecks and Bluebeards so underrated by our friends on this forum! (The non-singer-related surprise of this CD set for me was that the opera itself was not what I'd expected from its one famous excerpt, the splendidly old fashioned and bombastic 'Adieu forêt profonde', which is the only real aria in an otherwise through-composed and relatively modern sounding work.) Back to pirate recordings and Samson: there's another Fourestier recording of the opera on youtube from a 1952 radio broadcast which it might be interesting to compare with the Bouvier/ Luccioni studio version:






I admit I haven't listened to it yet because I'm not that enamoured of either Denise Scharley (a beautiful woman and a very ordinary singer, the opposite of what you want on the radio) or the generally rather wooden (and ageing by the time of this recording) Raoul Jobin. Still, people are apparently recommending Samson recordings featuring the indiscriminately ubiquitous Domingo  or the pipsqueak Carreras  neither of whom have any place in French opera, let alone French heroic roles, so I guess that puts the potential shortcomings of Jobin and Scharley into perspective!


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Di Stefano said that he preferred Carusos later recordings. According to him then Caruso had discovered all the potential of his voice. Gigli I think is either a singer you love or hate. In his time he was called the second Caruso. Gigli himself preferred Gigli primo. It doesn't matter if a singer is famous or not. If you don't like a singer, then you just don't. I like Gigli. His beautiful voice, especially his mezza voce. He had good technique and sounded believable in both dramatic and lyrical roles.I think Callas should have sung more mezzo roles. She could have for instance sang Norma more later on if she had just allowed herself to skip a few high notes. Even though I love long held high notes I think that opera is much more than that. I would be so thrilled to see Callas on Norma even in the condition she was in the 60'. The acting both physically and vocally mean so much more than a few high notes. All the pictures I have seen her as Norma and the short clip of Paris rehearsal are so magnificent. Like Zeffirelli said who cares of a few notes when everything else is so moving and insightful.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Hasn't been a whole lot of controversy lately, so I thought I'd spice things up a bit :devil: The premise is straightforward enough: post a few of your feather-ruffling opera-related opinions. Additionally, you are free to debate some of the opinions which others have listed. Only rule is: make sure you are respectful of others and their opinions (though it's fine if things get a little heated as long as the lid stays on. I'll ask that the moderators be a little bit lenient in that regard).
> 
> I'll start with a few of mine
> 1) Post-prime Callas was a mezzo and should have been singing Carmen, Azucena or Amneris rather than bel canto coloratura roles (even with that eargasmic portamento.....).
> ...


Oh my gosh... Eastern European opera is _so_ underrated!!


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Hasn't been a whole lot of controversy lately, so I thought I'd spice things up a bit :devil: The premise is straightforward enough: post a few of your feather-ruffling opera-related opinions. Additionally, you are free to debate some of the opinions which others have listed. Only rule is: make sure you are respectful of others and their opinions (though it's fine if things get a little heated as long as the lid stays on. I'll ask that the moderators be a little bit lenient in that regard).
> 
> I'll start with a few of mine
> 1) Post-prime Callas was a mezzo and should have been singing Carmen, Azucena or Amneris rather than bel canto coloratura roles (even with that eargasmic portamento.....).
> ...


Absolutely!! So true!


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

Oops... I posted the same thing twice. Sorry!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

My controversial opera opinion is that most controversial opera opinions are attempts to disguise and inflate personal taste into a principle.

When it comes to most things artistic, history's verdict is pretty reliable, and if our opinions are too far out of the mainstream we should offer them with humility and restraint - or at least a willingness to keep our sense of humor when everyone else tells us we have long ears.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Controversial opinons on opera? It sucks! (Mostly)


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

I'm not sure if this is controversial or not, but I have to ask. Geraint Evans. Am I missing something? I feel like his Beckmesser in Karajan's studio Meistersinger absolutely ruins any of the positives of that recording, being a silly sung-spoke caricature. His presence in both Solti's Salome and Elektra strikes me as so...jarring. I don't find his singing to be very good at all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If it runs long enough, and the hundred monkeys remain at their typewriters, this thread will eventually contain every opinion that has ever been offered on the subject of opera.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> attempts to disguise and inflate personal taste into a principle.


Isn't this basically what TC is made of?


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Isn't this basically what TC is made of?


Isn't the mass inflation of personal opinion into principle what history is made of?

"We are a religion, but Bobby over there is a cult..."

(NO SMOKING IN THIS THREAD NOW)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I disagree with everything in post one. :tiphat:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> When it comes to most things artistic, history's verdict is pretty reliable, and if our opinions are too far out of the mainstream we should offer them with humility and restraint - or at least a willingness to keep our sense of humor when everyone else tells us we have long ears.


Whose history and at what point in time? Consider the view of Bach before Mendelssohn, Mahler in the early part of the 20th century, Sibelius after his death, etc., etc. This makes me think that, with all due humility and restraint, it is time that I wrote _Becca's True and Complete History of Music from 8356BC to the present._


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> When I was younger than you, late teens or thereabouts, it was another dead tenor whose overratedness annoyed me, namely Beniamino Gigli; it wasn't as a matter of principle that I was annoyed, but because I had been misled by what passed as standard reference works in those days into spending money I could ill afford on complete opera sets in which he starred.* (I remember a Boheme, but there were a couple of others.) He indulged in his usual annoying mannerisms, the rest of the cast were mediocre and instantly forgettable. I largely gave up on complete opera recordings until collapsing CD prices and the internet made the purchase of complete operas a mostly risk-free enterprise. Anyway, the point of this digression is that Gigli idolatry, still prevalent a generation ago in the hearts of many opera enthusiasts as well as in reference works written a decade or two earlier, is now almost extinct, to the extent that a forthcoming biography of the tenor, the result of many years work, may now not be forthcoming due to lack of interest among the reading and listening public!


Very interesting to read that. When I was a child, in the 1950s, we had one 78 by Gigli & even in our uncultured house, he was mentioned in hushed tones. Moody is fond of him too. Thanks for providing an overview of his reputation. I must try & listen to him and decide whether the hushed tones were justified. 

Apart from that, I know nothing at all of any of these matters - but any thread that gets people going like this is always very readable. :tiphat:


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> If it runs long enough, and the hundred monkeys remain at their typewriters, this thread will eventually contain every opinion that has ever been offered on the subject of opera.


I'm at my typewriter again. I'm sure there are 99 others out there.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

"The verdict of history" is strangely fluid...

Take Ernest Meissonnier. (Who?) The highest-paid painter in history, in mid-19th-century France. Collectors would buy works he hadn't even started yet. A genius, a millionaire. Thirty years after his death, his reputation was so poor that one art critic suggested that the mere act of looking on a Meissonnier ought to be grounds for artistic excommunication. I have seen a Meissonnier... displayed as an example at an Impressionist exhibition as an example of everything the Impressionists stood against.

The most popular song of the Civil War era? Not "Dixie" or the "Battle Hymn" - try "Lorena," a sappy forgettable ballad that people on both sides of the war loved. People named their kids Lorena. Who even remembers this song today?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> My controversial opera opinion is that most controversial opera opinions are attempts to disguise and inflate personal taste into a principle.
> 
> When it comes to most things artistic, history's verdict is pretty reliable, and *if our opinions are too far out of the mainstream we should offer them with humility and restraint *- or at least a willingness to keep our sense of humor when everyone else tells us we have long ears.


we all do that without fail on TC of course! :lol:


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Personally, I have never been afraid of sharing my opinions, and I don't really care about if they are controversial, or not. If anyone is interested about the 'why' I have a particular opinion, I'm (almost) always ready to offer my reasons, and to listen to different points of view. Debate is fine, as long as we keep in mind that, mostly, we are discussing opinions.

Just as an example, this is what I think about the "controversial" opinions offered in the first post:

_1) Post-prime Callas was a mezzo and should have been singing Carmen, Azucena or Amneris rather than bel canto coloratura roles (even with that eargasmic portamento.....). _

I think post-prime Callas was simply post-prime Callas. A giant of a sfogato soprano, that was losing her voice. Same as we are told it happened to Giuditta Pasta, the first Norma. It doesn't matter. In the years of her prime, Callas gave us so much, that we don't really needed a long career, anyway.

_2) Enrique Caruso is overrated. His timbre was very metallic, not all that pleasing to the ear despite his wonderful technique. _

Overrated by whom?. The contemporary audiences that simply loved him?. The critics and fans that have been enchanted by his recordings, since his death in the 1920s?. With figures like Caruso, that cast such a long shadow, to think in terms of 'overrated' or 'underrated' is to miss the point, in my view. You can like all his recordings, some of them or none at all, but this is just your personal taste.

_3) Martina Arroyo > Leontyne Price. Both had lovely voices, but Arroyo's singing was much more elegant, balancing graceful, feminine, lyrical singing with natural power and a purple velvet timbre. _

Personally I like them both, but I'm not a big fan of either of them. Forced to choose between them, I'd also prefer Ms. Arroyo.

_4) Most mezzo Adelgisas are out of character. Adelgisa is a young, innocent druidic girl training to become a priestess, yet most of the mezzos who sing it sound more like Norma's aunt than her successor. She is best sung by either a soprano or a light mezzo (a la DiDonato)._

The role of Adalgisa was written for a 'seconda donna'. In my view, I prefer a soprano. My dream cast would have been Callas as Norma, and Caballé as Adalgisa. However, there are many mezzos that have sung the role with excellent results.

_5) Marilyn Horne is a contralto in disguise with her smoked black tea timbre which almost sounds like a countertenor. _

Ms. Horne was simply a great singer, and many fans (including myself) have enjoyed her artistry, including her timbre, but beyond only her timbre.

_6) The Duke of Mantua should be sung by a spinto tenor with a dark, masculine timbre. He is supposed to be seductive, rake-ish and a little bit narcissistic, not a thin, whiny, breathless lover boy. _

I have no issue with a spinto tenor singing the role, if he can handle the notes and the high tessitura. The first Duca was Raffaele Mirate, that was an specialist in Bel Canto roles, but was also capable of singing Manrico and receive the praise of Verdi.

_7) Unless they have a freakishly dark timbre, no soprano should be touching Carmen with a 39 and a half foot poll._

Carmen is a very central role, and can be sung well by both sopranos and mezzos. We have good Carmens from both fachs.

_8) The Barber of Seville is insanely overrated. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad opera, but Rossini has written so much better (Semiramide, L'Italiana en Algeri, etc)._

Barbiere is an operatic staple, and most probably it will remain so. Personally, I can also prefer L'Italiana, or the dramatic Rossini over the buffo (my favorite is _Tancredi_), but Barbiere is almost perfect.

_9) Italian opera is infinitely better than Austrio-German opera. The former is so much warmer, more sensual and more legato while the latter comes across to me as cold and mechanical. _

A matter of taste. Italian opera is indeed different from German opera, but that's about it. Some people will prefer one, some will prefer the other. Personally, I love both.

_10) Eastern European opera is drastically underrated and shares many parallels with Italian opera that Germanic opera does not. However, it's lack of coloratura take it back a few pegs. In both regards, I'm probably spoiled by all the bel canto specialists I listen to and their ability to effortless switch from delicate/sensual to dramatic/aggressive, high tessitura to low tessitura and even change the timbre of their voice depending on the tessitura of the current passage they are singing._

Eastern Europe is a big umbrella. However, we need to understand that there are three traditional schools in opera: Italian, French and German. This is a fact. And it's not going to change anytime soon.

_12) As a singer, just listening to Strauss makes me feel as if I'm about to have a vocal hemorrhage._

I guess this means the tenor roles. Maybe not Strauss's forte. However, there are some very nice passages, too. My favorite would be Menelaus.

Well, this is as far as controversy goes. 

However, we need to be careful about facts, as different from opinions. For instance, about Gigli. One can like Gigli, or not. In fact, a good friend of mine, that is a big fan of the tenor voice, always says that there are two Giglis, one that he loves, and other that he would kill, when the singer was using some of his mannierisms.

However, the reputation of Gigli is as strong now, as it was when our friend Ingélou was a small girl living at her parent's. Talking only about the last few years, in the BBC list of the "20 greatest tenors", Gigli was placed in the 7th position. In a similar exercise, did by a panel of leading Spanish and Italian critics, he was number one.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'll start with a few of mine (...)


Okay, I think I get it, let me create controversial opinion à la Balalaika Boy:

Bruce Ford is, in fact, not heroic dramatic bel canto coloratura tenor (despite his excellent formaggio) but light, banana-cream baritenore with scoreggiatura and he should sing lyrical operas di delicatezza instead of dark technical doom heavy donizettian repertoire.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> Whose history and at what point in time? Consider the view of Bach before Mendelssohn, Mahler in the early part of the 20th century, Sibelius after his death, etc., etc. This makes me think that, with all due humility and restraint, it is time that I wrote _Becca's True and Complete History of Music from 8356BC to the present._


Do it! It's already on my Christmas list!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 5) Marilyn Horne is a contralto in disguise with her smoked black tea timbre which almost sounds like a countertenor.


And this one is controversial how?

N.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

schigolch said:


> Well, this is as far as controversy goes.
> 
> However, we need to be careful about facts, as different from opinions. For instance, about Gigli. One can like Gigli, or not. In fact, a good friend of mine, that is a big fan of the tenor voice, always says that there are two Giglis, one that he loves, and other that he would kill, when the singer was using some of his mannierisms.
> 
> However, the reputation of Gigli is as strong now, as it was when our friend Ingélou was a small girl living at her parent's. Talking only about the last few years, in the BBC list of the "20 greatest tenors", Gigli was placed in the 7th position. In a similar exercise, did by a panel of leading Spanish and Italian critics, he was number one.


Re Gigli, your friend puts it better than I could have done. My friend- the author of the unpublished Gigli book- thinks that there is no longer enough interest in the tenor to make publication worthwhile financially. I suppose this isn't the same as saying that there is no interest in Gigli at all, but I suspect that what interest there is has decreased in my lifetime and is concentrated among an older generation of listeners: Moody's generation, in fact. Looking at recent issues of The Record Collector, the only music magazine I read these days, it seems that there is much Gigli worship among its subscribers- but they appear to be mostly elderly. There was a touching article a few months back by a collector who had made a pilgrimage to the tenor's tomb in Italy, though he found it somewhat unkempt and possibly falling into disrepair. This seems like a sad metaphor for the fate of historical singers generally: a handful of fanatics try to keep the flame alive while important artefacts deteriorate or are lost forever, and most of the listening public are indifferent.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Count me in as someone who greatly prefers Gigli to Caruso. 

I can't help but wonder if Caruso hadn't been the first major recording star who imprinted on two generations (at least), whether evaluations of his legacy might be mitigated.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Actually, many tombs of famous people in Italy are 'unkempt and falling into disrepair", and not only Gigli's. There have been quite a few very bad years for Italian economy, and finding money it's not easy. Here is a youtube with a local Recanati politician explaining the situation, and asking for funds.






But the really important part of Gigli's legacy is not his tomb, of course, but his artistry. And I don't think this is fading into oblivion. I guess "Moody's generation" must be people in their seventies. Well, I'm in my fifties, and I know quite a few people in their thirties and twenties that are very fond of Gigli. 

This was the list of the BBC mentioned above:

20. Sergey Lemeshev 
19. Wolfgang Windgassen 
18. Alfredo Kraus 
17. Anthony Rolfe Johnson 
16. John McCormack 
15. Franco Corelli 
14. Peter Schreier 
13. Juan Diego Florez 
12. Carlo Bergonzi 
11. Tito Schipa 
10. Peter Pears 
9. Nicolai Gedda 
8. Jon Vickers 
*7. Beniamino Gigli *
6. Lauritz Melchior 
5. Jussi Bjoerling 
4. Fritz Wunderlich 
3. Luciano Pavarotti 
2. Enrico Caruso 
1. Placido Domingo

And the Spanish/Italian list:

20. Richard Tauber 
19. Richard Tucker 
18. Helge Rosvaenge
17. Plácido Domingo
16. Giuseppe di Stefano
15. Luciano Pavarotti 
14. Lauritz Melchior
13. Fritz Wunderlich
12. Mario del Monaco 
11. Giacomo Lauri-Volpi
10. Nicolai Gedda
9. Carlo Bergonzi
8. Jussi Björling
7. Franco Corelli
6. Miguel Fleta
5. Aureliano Pertile
4. Tito Schipa
3. Enrico Caruso
2. Alfredo Kraus 
*1. Beniamino Gigli*


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I'm surprised that anyone finds this late Caruso voice an attractive sound. I wouldn't characterise his timbre as 'metallic', which to me at least means a bright, pure sound rather than a heavy, dull one. Is Caruso overrated? Of course. You may live to see the day when hysterical idolatry of Caruso, already a kind of folk memory, is regarded merely as a historical curiosity and a relic of the time when sound recording first became part of the mass media, rather than as a true reflection of his worth as an artist. Of course, Caruso was a greater vocal phenomenon and a more influential figure than Gigli, but it's not impossible that his reputation could be similarly obliterated by the passage of time- even though the Caruso cult in its present form rests not on the nostalgia of those who heard him live but on the enthusiasm of record collectors with an antiquarian bent.


*ON CARUSO*

"I heard all the great tenors of my time over and over again. Many of them were wonderful artists and had extraordinary voices. But in my opinion, not a single one of them ever sang an entire role with such vocal and artistic consistency as Caruso." - *Giulio Gatti Casazza*, director of the Metropolitan Opera

"In my long lifetime there have been three miracles - Caruso, Ponselle and Ruffo. Apart from these there have been several wonderful singers.'" - *Tullio Serafin*, conductor and mentor to Maria Callas

"When you speak of tenors, you have to divide them into two groups. Caruso in the first group. All the others are in the second." - *Rosa Ponselle*, pretty good soprano

"There are two singers you must put aside, one is Enrico Caruso, the other is Rosa Ponselle. Then you may begin to discuss all the others!" - *Geraldine Farrar*, another pretty good soprano

"As a voice - pure and simple - his was the most wonderful tenor I ever heard." - *Nellie Melba*, another...

"By Heaven! If this Neapolitan continues to sing like this, he will make the whole world talk about him." - *Arturo Toscanini*, in 1898

"He is singing the soul of the melody!" - *Richard Strauss*, pretty good composer

"Who sent you to me? God Himself?" - *Giacomo Puccini*, on hearing Caruso sing Rodolfo in _La Boheme_

"I am by now 72 years old. My grandfather told me about Caruso. That he heard him live in the Metropolitan Opera as Radames. That he could not sleep after that for some nights. That he decided to see and hear him again in that role because he thought to have dreamt. So he went to hear him once more. And that overwhelming experience lasted all his life." - Jan de Turovski, someone's grandson

"Caruso was a born singer, and a perfect one, by almost divine and superhuman will. He obeyed the call of his heart rather than technical influences, his sentiment being his only guide in singing. Everything in him was instinctive and intuitive." - Dr. P. Mario Marafioti in the book _Caruso's Method of Vocal Production._

"I loved his voice, his talent, the sense of beauty expressed in his nuances of timbre, his portamento and rubato, his great musicality and naturalness, and we got along so well." - *Bruno Walter*, conductor and composer

"I treasure Caruso's records as the greatest and finest lesson any singer could possibly have. None of us living tenors could possibly stand any comparison with that voice. It makes me realise how little I have achieved." - *Richard Tauber*, not a bad tenor

"36 years later that voice still rings in my ears, the memory of it will never die." - *John McCormack*, not chopped liver either

"I wonder what would have become of me if, like him, I had been born in a city slum; for I did not have the gifts of personality that enabled Caruso to create life and warmth around him wherever he went." - *Beniamino Gigli*, overrated tenor still waiting for his reputation to be obliterated

At a party an overdressed flamboyant woman persisted in demanding answers from *Giovanni Martinelli* to questions in a loud voice to attract attention. Finally she said, "Come now, Mr. Martinelli, tell us the truth - Caruso was never as good as his press made him to be, is that not the truth." Martinelli swung around and faced his tormentor. "Madame", he declared in his accented, but thoroughly accurate English, "Put Gigli, Lauri-Volpi and me together - make us one tenor - and we would not be fit to kiss Caruso's shoe tops."






_"I know that I shall sing only a certain number of times. So I think to myself, "Tonight I will hold back my voice. I will save it a little and that will mean I may be able to sing a few more times." But when I go before the audience, when I hear the music and begin to sing, I cannot hold back. I give the best there is in me - I give all."

"I suffer so much in this life. That is what they are feeling when I sing, that is why they cry. People who felt nothing in this life cannot sing."

"A big chest, a big mouth, 90 percent memory, 10 percent intelligence, lots of hard work, and something in the heart."_ - *Enrico Caruso*


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

schigolch said:


> I think post-prime Callas was simply post-prime Callas. A giant of a sfogato soprano, that was losing her voice. Same as we are told it happened to Giuditta Pasta, the first Norma. It doesn't matter. In the years of her prime, Callas gave us so much, that we don't really needed a long career, anyway.


you mean an assoluta (rather sfogato soprano)?



> Overrated by whom?. The contemporary audiences that simply loved him?. The critics and fans that have been enchanted by his recordings, since his death in the 1920s?. With figures like Caruso, that cast such a long shadow, to think in terms of 'overrated' or 'underrated' is to miss the point, in my view. You can like all his recordings, some of them or none at all, but this is just your personal taste.


that goes without saying



> Ms. Horne was simply a great singer, and many fans (including myself) have enjoyed her artistry, including her timbre, but beyond only her timbre.


I never disagreed. she is a wonderful singer....but a wonderful _contralto_ singer.



> I have no issue with a spinto tenor singing the role, if he can handle the notes and the high tessitura. The first Duca was Raffaele Mirate, that was an specialist in Bel Canto roles, but was also capable of singing Manrico and receive the praise of Verdi.


lighter tenors simply aren't seductive enough imo



> Carmen is a very central role, and can be sung well by both sopranos and mezzos. We have good Carmens from both fachs.


Carmen sits primarily in the lower-middle. sopranos can hit the notes, but they lack the creaminess or sultry timbre to pull it off convincingly



> Eastern Europe is a big umbrella. However, we need to understand that there are three traditional schools in opera: Italian, French and German. This is a fact. And it's not going to change anytime soon.


well, "schools" aside, each culture has it's own musical style of opera, so I don't see your point



> I guess this means the tenor roles. Maybe not Strauss's forte. However, there are some very nice passages, too. My favorite would be Menelaus.


tenor and soprano


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Aramis said:


> Okay, I think I get it, let me create controversial opinion à la Balalaika Boy:
> Bruce Ford is, in fact, not heroic dramatic bel canto coloratura tenor (despite his excellent formaggio) but light, banana-cream baritenore with scoreggiatura and he should sing lyrical operas di delicatezza instead of dark technical doom heavy donizettian repertoire.


lmao! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I take other people's opinions of Caruso - Tony Pappano praise him to the skies the other night. Must confess from what I've heard I wouldn't want to listen to him too long but that might be partially due to my aversion to ancient recordings. He apparently was a pioneer who changed the sound of the tenor voice.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Austro- German opera is "cold and mechanical "? Gosh ! I couldn't disagree more . How could anyone call Tristan & Isolde or Der Rosenkavalier "cold and mechanical ?" Or so many other great German 
operas . Beats me .
Maybe you just don't like the sound of the German language as much as Italian ; Italian is certainly a much more melifluous language , but in the hands of great singers, German can sound quite lovely . 
Wagner's music is so warm and sensous , ditto the music of Richard Strauss . What could be more melting than the love duet of Tristan & Islode in the 2nd act , or the liebestod ? Or the quintet in
the 3rd act of Die Meistersinger . Or "Wintersturme" from the 1st act of Die Walkure ? And so much else from their immortal output . Sheesh almighty ! You should listen more to these composer's operas . 
What on earth is "cold and mechanical " about Beethoven's Fidelio or Weber's Der Freischutz ?


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

superhorn said:


> Austro- German opera is "cold and mechanical "? Gosh ! I couldn't disagree more . How could anyone call Tristan & Isolde or Der Rosenkavalier "cold and mechanical ?" Or so many other great German
> operas . Beats me .
> Maybe you just don't like the sound of the German language as much as Italian ; Italian is certainly a much more melifluous language , but in the hands of great singers, German can sound quite lovely .
> Wagner's music is so warm and sensous , ditto the music of Richard Strauss . What could be more melting than the love duet of Tristan & Islode in the 2nd act , or the liebestod ? Or the quintet in
> ...


Of course forums like this encourage wild generalisations. I've let loose a flock or two myself over the years. But it makes no sense to categorise an entire culture like this. Where does Mozart fit (Austrian writing for operas in German and Italian)? Is the Magic Flute cold and mechanical? The suggestion would be absurd. In fact, I don't really understand what mechanical is meant to convey in this context.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

schigolch said:


> Actually, many tombs of famous people in Italy are 'unkempt and falling into disrepair", and not only Gigli's. There have been quite a few very bad years for Italian economy, and finding money it's not easy. Here is a youtube with a local Recanati politician explaining the situation, and asking for funds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whatever those Spanish and Italian critics are smoking, I'd like some.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

couldn't have said it better myself:


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

(Juan Diego Florez? Really?)


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> My controversial opera opinion is that most controversial opera opinions are attempts to disguise and inflate personal taste into a principle.


Yep! Just like the current crop of regisseurs.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Okay, I think I get it, let me create controversial opinion à la Balalaika Boy:
> 
> Bruce Ford is, in fact, not heroic dramatic bel canto coloratura tenor (despite his excellent formaggio) but light, banana-cream baritenore with scoreggiatura and he should sing lyrical operas di delicatezza instead of dark technical doom heavy donizettian repertoire.


Exactly! You totally understand fach.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> couldn't have said it better myself:


Interesting quote, but hardly surprising given party member No. 7548960's years of lying about her past and trying to brush it off once it came to light.

My controversial opinion: Whatever her artistic gifts, democracy in any form (along with its stalwart companion accountability) was not Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's friend. Not at all.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

sospiro said:


> Exactly! You totally understand fach.


not really. 
first off, there is no "dramatic coloratura tenor" bel canto repertoire. there are some rare examples of "dramatic coloratura tenors (look up Hermann Jadlowker, he was a freak! ), but there is no _repertoire_ written for this type of voice (you might as well write a role for Yma Sumac, because you'd have to wait about 100 years before anyone was even able to touch it again lol). the leggiero tenor is similar to the lyric coloratura soprano in that you can have a "light leggiero tenor" (Juan Diego Florez, Rockwell Blake, etc) and a more "full leggiero tenor" (Alfredo Kraus, Nicolae Gedda, etc), but these are still very different from a baritenor, which is my next point. the baritenor and the leggiero/"coloratura" transition from chest to head registers about a third apart (F4 and G#4 respectively), so a mix up in unlikely to happen if we're talking about an experienced singer.

PS:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Balthazar said:


> Interesting quote, but hardly surprising given party member No. 7548960's years of lying about her past and trying to brush it off once it came to light.
> 
> My controversial opinion: Whatever her artistic gifts, democracy in any form (along with its stalwart companion accountability) was not Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's friend. Not at all.


Oh here we go again. This view is hardly controversial at all, having been around for decades.

For my part, I think Schwarzkopf, like a lot of young artists, was intensely ambitious and would have done anything she thought would further her career. The same with Karajan. I doubt either of them were political at all. Artists can be incredibly naive in their goals.

On the other hand, Tiana Lemnitz remained faithful to the Nazi party and the Third Reich until the day she died.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> For my part, I think *Schwarzkopf*, like a lot of young artists, *was intensely ambitious and would have done anything she thought would further her career*. The same with Karajan. I doubt either of them were political at all. Artists can be incredibly naive in their goals.


Perhaps -- like baseball players taking steroids, politicians embezzling campaign funds, or Wall Street traders hiding their tickets.

But while your line of reasoning may explain their actions, it in no way absolves these individuals of responsibility for their words and/or deeds.

My point above was that Schwarzkopf is not someone whose views on democracy in any form should be considered without a truckload of salt.

I'll strive to be more controversial next time, Big G!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> Perhaps -- like baseball players taking steroids, politicians embezzling campaign funds, or Wall Street traders hiding their tickets.
> 
> But while your line of reasoning may explain their actions, it in no way absolves these individuals of responsibility for their words and/or deeds.
> 
> ...


Your moral certitude and severity in judging the motives and actions of Schwarzkopf, whose actual thinking during her lifetime you don't know, is really a bit presumptuous, don't you think? Your gratuitously making a point of it in a thread asking for opinions about opera - not about the assumed personal characters of singers - seems rudely out of place. And your using Schwarzkopf's _completely nonpolitical_ use of the word "democratic" as a convenient opening to make an association with Nazism, apparently implying that she was an advocate of Hitler's dictatorial policies (which you don't really know) and therefore should not use the word even in an utterly unrelated sense, makes no sense or point and just smacks of opportunism.

I'm not an advocate for Schwarzkopf; I don't know any more about her deeper motives and beliefs than you do. But righteous moralism and condemnation of deceased strangers comes cheap. The sins, real or imputed, of a musician's past shouldn't make for open season on her. Schwarzkopf's statement has nothing to do with her presumed political views and actions and should be addressed in its actual meaning. She might actually be making a point worth considering.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Balthazar said:


> Perhaps -- like baseball players taking steroids, politicians embezzling campaign funds, or Wall Street traders hiding their tickets.
> 
> But while your line of reasoning may explain their actions, it in no way absolves these individuals of responsibility for their words and/or deeds.
> 
> ...


She was talking about music I think.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Since everyone here know more about opera that I do, I do not understand most of the previous posts


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Your moral certitude and severity in judging the motives and actions...............


Oh, Woody…

As is your wont, you are accusing me of saying and doing things that are figments of your lively imagination and/or your pugnacious debating spirit - and in all cases wholly untrue.

As noted above, my sole point was that anything Schwarkopf said about democracy in any form should be seen in the context of her life as we know it. Is that so crazy?

Can there be, as you claim, a "completely nonpolitical use of the word 'democratic'?" I don't think so. And Schwarzkopf could have used a thesaurus full of other words to make her point apolitically, but she chose not to. (Not knowing the context of the quote, I assume it was in English and that she chose her words independently.) Also, to Itullian's point, note the judicious and equivocating use of the semi-colon.

My point stands - any remark from Schwarzkopf regarding democracy in any form - political, musical, or vegetable -- should be taken with a grain/truckload of salt. And, I should not need to add, this has no bearing on the artistic merits of her output.

P.S. I find it interesting that the rather prosaic idea that people should be responsible for their words and actions, and that these things matter, creates such a kerfuffle in some circles here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> Oh, Woody…
> 
> As is your wont, you are accusing me of saying and doing things that are figments of your lively imagination and/or your pugnacious debating spirit - and in all cases wholly untrue.
> 
> ...


Oh, Bal... um, whatever...

Schwarzkopf is talking about art, not politics, and you're using her words in a completely different sense from her actual meaning for the sole purpose of condemning her morally - which, because you don't know her, you should be a little humble about presuming to do. We don't go around twisting people's words to mean what they haven't implied and then claim that what they've said can't be taken seriously. That is insulting and dishonest. She has every right to use the word "democracy," and if you can't dissociate the word from unpleasant attitudes you entertain toward her that is no fault of hers. I am asking for fairness. That's all.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

It's clear as day.

She has every right to use the word "democracy," and I have every right to interpret her pronouncements in the context of what I know of her life.

And you, apparently, have the right to throw out _ad hom_s and impugn my motives at every turn.

And I still enjoy her Four Last Songs!

It looks like we're all winners here! :tiphat:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

1) Renata Scotto was a lyric soprano, and not even a particularly weighty lyric soprano. ironically, the best recording of hers I heard was as _Gilda_. this is so obvious I'm not even sure it's controversial in the first place.
2) Jessye Norman is a mezzo (seems most people around here agree with me)
3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with Jonas Kaufmann's vocal production. no, he is not "trying to sound like a baritone", he's just not one of the thin, nasal lil lyric tenors who seem to be in vogue at the moment. it's evident to me that his production is quite natural, and I honestly wish more tenors would invest in developing the lower register.
4) Speaking of lower registers, most of opera could do with a lot more of them. Plenty of mezzos and contraltos have solid low Fs, Es and Ds and almost no tenor roles have any low notes worth mentioning. ironically, it is _soprano_ roles which most extensively utilize the lower register (especially Verdi and dramatic bel canto)
5) Turandot is a sociopathic and a narcissist 
6) In general, the dramatic baritone is a much more heroic voice than most tenors (with exceptions of course, particularly spinto tenors)
7) Massenet is largely underrated (and, from what little I've heard, so is French opera in general)
8) The fact system is there for a reason and, unless you have the technique and experience to venture outward, you should stay singing music within your fach.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 4) Speaking of lower registers, most of opera could do with a lot more of them. Plenty of mezzos and contraltos have solid low Fs, Es and Ds and almost no tenor roles have any low notes worth mentioning. ironically, it is _soprano_ roles which most extensively utilize the lower register (especially Verdi and dramatic bel canto)
> 
> No disagreement here.
> 
> ...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) Renata Scotto was a lyric soprano, and not even a particularly weighty lyric soprano. ironically, the best recording of hers I heard was as _Gilda_. this is so obvious I'm not even sure it's controversial in the first place.


Not at all controversial, she most definitely was a lyric soprano.



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with Jonas Kaufmann's vocal production. no, he is not "trying to sound like a baritone", he's just not one of the thin, nasal lil lyric tenors who seem to be in vogue at the moment. it's evident to me that his production is quite natural, and I honestly wish more tenors would invest in developing the lower register.


Although I agree that there is nothing wrong with Kaufmann being a drammatic tenor (some people say exactly the same thing about Domingo's voice), Kaufmann has had some minor technical problems in the past.



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 6) In general, the dramatic baritone is a much more heroic voice than most tenors (with exceptions of course, particularly spinto tenors)


It depends on what you mean by heroic.



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 7) Massenet is largely underrated (and, from what little I've heard, so is French opera in general)


I don't agree, but maybe French opera is rated more highly in the UK than in your part of the world.



BalalaikaBoy said:


> 8) The fact system is there for a reason and, unless you have the technique and experience to venture outward, you should stay singing music within your fach.


So every singer can only manage two to three roles at any one time?

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> So every singer can only manage two to three roles at any one time?


*googles cursory list of roles for each voice type*
highly unlikely


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

OperaMaven said:


> That's one interpretation of her, and a fairly shallow one. Someone who really wants to "get into her head" might make up a backstory that has her with severe PTSD expressed as an extreme phobia of sex and childbirth, due to having seen her mother die bearing a stillborn son (or worse, miscarrying one). There needs to be a reason that she's her father's only heir, and a catastrophe like that was all too likely. (Which means all the stuff about her sainted ancestress Lo-u-ling is ex post facto rationalization.)


people who are afraid of pregnancy/sex avoid suitors. 
people with PTSD lash out against people who _threaten them_
neither decides "I'm going to have a contest to see who is worthy of loving me and kill everyone else". that is a _pride_-based motivation, not one based off of fear or any sort of irrational neurosis related to self-preservation.



> More or less agreed. Too bad it's so rare for the baritone to get the girl!


kind of ironic as women IRL tend to prefer deeper voices


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Really? (Dropping his voice into his boots.)


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> It depends on what you mean by heroic.


to me, "heroic" means
- awe inspiring
- formidable
- fire/guts/conviction (though this has more to do with the character of the individual and the content of the music than the actual voice itself)
- moments of vulnerability
- combination power and elegance (they do not need to be Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, but voices who lack lyricism come off cumbersome and "barking" to me rather than "heroic")

some examples of singers with "heroic" voices would be Martina Arroyo, Sherrill Milnes, Christel Lindstat, Cornel Macneil, Joan Sutherland, Nikolai Kondratyuk, Eula Beal, Franco Corelli


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

whoops, wrong thread


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Solti Ring is just not that good. Episodic, overly brassy and pompous. The sound is fantastic (maybe still the best sounding recording) but the overall performance is lacking, and my hobby is listening to music, not listening to sound quality. There's at least a dozen recordings of the Ring I'd pick over the Solti.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> The Solti Ring is just not that good. Episodic, overly brassy and pompous. The sound is fantastic (maybe still the best sounding recording) but the overall performance is lacking, and my hobby is listening to music, not listening to sound quality. There's at least a dozen recordings of the Ring I'd pick over the Solti.


I mostly agree. As a recording it is quite an achievement, but artistically something of a train wreck. Solti lives for the moment, there is a wearing brilliance to the sound, and several singers from the Keilberth Ring are heard again but in much less fresh voice. I don't know about a _dozen _ recordings I would choose over it, but now the the 1955 Keilberth Ring is available I don't have much use for it, outside of the opportunity to hear Nilsson's Brunnhilde.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^^Maybe that's why I like it so much.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Faustian said:


> I mostly agree. As a recording it is quite an achievement, but artistically something of a train wreck. Solti lives for the moment, there is a wearing brilliance to the sound, and several singers from the Keilberth Ring are heard again but in much less fresh voice. I don't know about a _dozen _ recordings I would choose over it, but now the the 1955 Keilberth Ring is available I don't have much use for it, outside of the opportunity to hear Nilsson's Brunnhilde.


I totally agree (although it's the Keilberth 53 that I turn too)

N.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Hmm, you guys aren't helping me feel like my opinion actually belongs in the "controversial opinion" thread.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> Hmm, you guys aren't helping me feel like my opinion actually belongs in the "controversial opinion" thread.


Let me help. Sheer lunacy*. Greatest recording of all time, in survey after survey. Massive achievement. Historical marker. And the singing is generally pretty good.

* This comment is a compliment, to make you feel as though your opinion is controversial. Otherwise I would remove the "sheer".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Solti's _Ring_ inspires exaggerated reactions both ways. Maybe the truly controversial thing would be to give a balanced assessment of its strengths and weaknesses. I think the only really weak link is the _Walkure_, with Solti at his least effective, an over-the-hill Hotter, and a wooden James King. Solti is at his best in _Gotterdammerung_, and the cast is a superb bunch of Wagnerians we couldn't duplicate now. Can we go to the opera today and hear the likes of George London, Kirsten Flagstad, Gustav Neidlinger, Birgit Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, and Gottlob Frick? No? I didn't think so.

I hope that's not too controversial a perspective for y'all.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

When it comes to Wagner ... Reginald Goodall puts everyone else in the shade (except perhaps for Klemperer's Walkure act 1 and then only because Goodall prepared it for him)

How's that?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> kind of ironic as women IRL tend to prefer deeper voices


Wow, thanks for telling me, I've been doing it wrong all these years!


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Solti's _Ring_ inspires exaggerated reactions both ways. Maybe the truly controversial thing would be to give a balanced assessment of its strengths and weaknesses. I think the only really weak link is the _Walkure_, with Solti at his least effective, an over-the-hill Hotter, and a wooden James King. Solti is at his best in _Gotterdammerung_, and the cast is a superb bunch of Wagnerians we couldn't duplicate now. Can we go to the opera today and hear the likes of George London, Kirsten Flagstad, Gustav Neidlinger, Birgit Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, and Gottlob Frick? No? I didn't think so.
> 
> I hope that's not too controversial a perspective for y'all.


That is a very balanced summary, so clearly it is controversial. I love the Solti, though I don't think it is definitive. But I don't know all the 1950s Bayreuth recordings that the afficionados here praise (yet!).


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> Wow, thanks for telling me, I've been doing it wrong all these years!


emphasis on "tend to". if you enjoy males with higher voices, you should have an easier time capitalizing on market inefficiencies :devil:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> That is a very balanced summary, so clearly it is controversial. I love the Solti, though I don't think it is definitive. But I don't know all the 1950s Bayreuth recordings that the afficionados here praise (yet!).


I just can't afford to go out and buy them. I'm glad there are people here doing that listening for me. I'm already familiar with most of the singers of that era, so I can easily imagine the performances when others talk about them.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Becca said:


> When it comes to Wagner ... Reginald Goodall puts everyone else in the shade (except perhaps for Klemperer's Walkure act 1 and then only because Goodall prepared it for him)
> 
> How's that?


You must be kidding .......


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Pugg said:


> You must be kidding .......


The OP said 'controversial' ... that is about as controversial as I could come up with on quick notice


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Becca said:


> The OP said 'controversial' ... that is about as controversial as I could come up with on quick notice


Big hug and kiss on the cheek :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> When it comes to Wagner ... Reginald Goodall puts everyone else in the shade (except perhaps for Klemperer's Walkure act 1 and then only because Goodall prepared it for him)
> 
> How's that?


Wagner tends to be over long. At Goodall's speeds it tends to be interminable! Interesting that Solti in his memoirs counts him as a 'great Wagnerian' he says that although he held him in great esteem as a musician, "I felt that as a conductor he lacked the basic technical skills to transmit his love of the score to performance." That's why Goodall did not conduct at Covent Garden.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

For some reason I've never really enjoyed classical Ballet, even worse when one is put into an Opera. However in the theatre there's a saying that when words are not enough, you sing. When singing isn't enough to express yourself, then you dance.

If only Rossini, Donizetti and other composers of lighter Opera's and Comedies had known this then things would have been even better. This would be particularly suitable for the young lovers who lets face it are often boring.

No one does it better.






or cut to 3 minutes here and you get the perfect ending for Tosca. The normal one is far to abrubt and sends the audience home on a real bummer.






But seriously folks, doesn't Opera miss a trick by NOT incorporating Dance?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Belowpar said:


> But seriously folks, doesn't Opera miss a trick by NOT incorporating Dance?


Not sure about opera missing a trick, but opera singers would certainly miss a note or two if you had them dance like Fred Astaire while performing.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Here's one that makes dramatic sense

From wiki

The scene shifts to a huge party the gods are having in Hell, where ambrosia, nectar, and propriety are nowhere to be seen ("Vive le vin! Vive Pluton!"). Eurydice sneaks in disguised as a bacchante ("J'ai vu le dieu Bacchus"), but Jupiter's plan to sneak her out is interrupted by calls for a dance. Unfortunately, Jupiter can only dance minuets which everyone else finds boring and awful ("La la la. Le menuet n'est vraiment si charmant"). Things liven up, though,....






Odd that Youtube hasn't a more conventional version. It can be most effective.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

sospiro said:


> Yep! Just like the current crop of *regisseurs*.


What exactly are 'reggie-sewers,' anyway?

Platinum hair and platform wedges I can understand.

But bongo-bongo barnyard couture is outside of my ken.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> But seriously folks, doesn't Opera miss a trick by NOT incorporating Dance?


But of course for much of its long and outstanding career, opera _has_ incorporated dance.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Reading through this thread, I now feel considerably less guilty for never having enjoyed Caruso's recordings.

My controversial opinion: Verdi's OTELLO is a great opera, but it's not really _all that_ much greater than the best of Verdi's early and middle-period operas (e.g. MACBETH, RIGOLETTO, UN BALLO IN MASCHERA).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Reading through this thread, I now feel considerably less guilty for never having enjoyed Caruso's recordings.
> 
> My controversial opinion: Verdi's OTELLO is a great opera, but it's not really _all that_ much greater than the best of Verdi's early and middle-period operas (e.g. MACBETH, RIGOLETTO, UN BALLO IN MASCHERA).


Isn't that because the melodies don't flow any more like the ones you mentioned?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Reading through this thread, I now feel considerably less guilty for never having enjoyed Caruso's recordings.
> 
> My controversial opinion: Verdi's OTELLO is a great opera, but it's not really _all that_ much greater than the best of Verdi's early and middle-period operas (e.g. MACBETH, RIGOLETTO, UN BALLO IN MASCHERA).


Maybe that second opinion is not so controversial. _Rigoletto_ is certainly a masterpiece, and Stravinsky actually preferred it to _Otello._ He liked opera that contained distinct forms and didn't care for the "Wagnerian" tendencies of Verdi's late works.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe that second opinion is not so controversial. _Rigoletto_ is certainly a masterpiece, and Stravinsky actually preferred it to _Otello._ He liked opera that contained distinct forms and didn't care for the "Wagnerian" tendencies of Verdi's late works.


Does the opinion off Stravinsky actually add anything to your own thoughts?
Not being rude, just curious


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 8) The Barber of Seville is insanely overrated. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad opera, but Rossini has written so much better (Semiramide, L'Italiana en Algeri, etc).


True! It's not the strongest dramatically - the first act takes a while to get going, and the second act sags - but there are some wonderful pieces. The Act I finale is like having the top of your head blown off - in a GOOD way; and "A un dottor" a brilliant patter song.

What is the best comedy, though? _L'italiana_ is sheer joy from start to finish; the young Rossini's score bubbles with glee - just listen to the demented Act I finale with the confused characters cawing, or imitating hammers and cannons like a foundry; or the sneezing quintet (Eccì! Eccì! Eccì!). _Cenerentola _is probably the most human, and _Le Comte Ory _the most elegant, although the Act I finale doesn't have the full effect of the Gran pezzo concertato!

While Rossini's comedies are works of genius, people who don't know much Rossini think of him only as a lightweight writer of comic opera. Lightweight isn't how I'd describe _Guillaume Tell_, _Ermione _or _Maometto II_!



> 9) Italian opera is infinitely better than Austrio-German opera. The former is so much warmer, more sensual and more legato while the latter comes across to me as cold and mechanical.


And French opera is better than either!

(Now there's a controversial opera opinion!)

Although can I suggest Flotow and Lortzing, who are delightful? Weber is patchy but inspired, and I need to hear more Märschner.

Offenbach and Meyerbeer were German. They went to France. Go figure.



> 10) Eastern European opera is drastically underrated and shares many parallels with Italian opera that Germanic opera does not. However, it's lack of coloratura take it back a few pegs. In both regards, I'm probably spoiled by all the bel canto specialists I listen to and their ability to effortless switch from delicate/sensual to dramatic/aggressive, high tessitura to low tessitura and even change the timbre of their voice depending on the tessitura of the current passage they are singing.


YES! Both to the huge underratedness and to the Italian influence. Although you can hear a hell of a lot of French opera in there - the ensembles, the use of crowds, the historical and fantastical elements, the instrumental colour and imagination, the way the text determines the form of the music while still being melodic. Meyerbeer and Berlioz were massive influences.

_Prince Igor_ is great, but deserved a better production than the Met gave it for its first Western production not called _Kismet_!

If you want coloratura, listen to Glinka! There are Bellini & Donizetti in _Ruslan & Lyudmila_ - Farlaf's rondo, Ratmir's aria - and a lot of musical imagination (*that* overture, Chernomor's march). The quartet in _A Life for the Tsar_ is wonderful, a Russian version of bel canto.

And listen to Yaroslavna's aria in Borodin's _Prince Igor_ and Marina's aria and the fountain duet in _Boris Godunov_!

And Moniuszko's _Straszny dwór_!



> 12) As a singer, just listening to Strauss makes me feel as if I'm about to have a vocal hemorrhage.


Have you heard Die Frau ohne Schatten? :devil: The final scene of _Salome _is awesome, though - it moves by pity and terror. (Plus you get to shock your religious friends by saying you watched a teenage girl do a striptease for her stepfather and make love to the severed head of John the Baptist.) This is hilarious: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Strauss


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

SimonTemplar said:


> This is hilarious: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Strauss


Welcome to the DG. Yes it is.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Simon Boccanegra is one of Verdi's greatest operas, as fine as Il Trovatore, and is shamefully under-rated.

I'm so worked up now, I will play it this weekend!


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> Reading through this thread, I now feel considerably less guilty for never having enjoyed Caruso's recordings.
> 
> My controversial opinion: Verdi's OTELLO is a great opera, but it's not really _all that_ much greater than the best of Verdi's early and middle-period operas (e.g. MACBETH, RIGOLETTO, UN BALLO IN MASCHERA).


In the recent voting for the top 200 Opera's I was trying to make the point that Verdi's standards were so high that we tended to undervalue the Quality of his work when we rank them. I agree that Otello and Rigoletto are pretty close in terms of standards.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Belowpar said:


> Welcome to the DG. Yes it is.


Thanks!

Some controversial opinions:

In the nineteenth century, most people thought Meyerbeer was a great composer. They were right.

Massenet was one of the most gifted and versatile opera composers. While _Manon_ and _Werther_ are excellent, he wrote plenty of operas just as good, if not better - including _Ariane_, _Esclarmonde_, _Roma_, _Panurge_ and _Grisélidis_.

Upgrading to Windows 10 wasn't a good idea. (it crashed the furshlugginer computer while I was typing this post, so I have to do it all again.)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

hpowders said:


> OP: Simon Boccanegra is one of Verdi's greatest operas, as fine as Il Trovatore, and is shamefully under-rated.
> 
> I'm so worked up now, I will play it this weekend!


Is that controversial? There are many who would agree with you, myself included.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

How about the great world opera houses put aside the umpteenth performances of Wagner's Ring and show some real initiative.

Wipe off the dust-laden scores of Meyerbeer's L'Africaine, Robert le Diable and Les Huguenots!!

Unjustly neglected!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> How about the great world opera houses put aside the umpteenth performances of Wagner's Ring and show some real initiative.
> 
> Wipe off the dust-laden scores of Meyerbeer's L'Africaine, Robert le Diable and Les Huguenots!!
> 
> Unjustly neglected!


People nowadays can hardly sit out a Tosca, so let alone the ones you mentioned .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Pugg said:


> People nowadays can hardly sit out a Tosca, so let alone the ones you mentioned .


 They do Les Troyens, Götterdämmerung, Meistersinger and Parsifal regularly enough and the latest trend in Verdi performances is to combine two acts in one, cutting down on the intermissions. So audiences have gotten used to "suffering". 

I bet if they did any of the Meyerbeer operas, the Met would be quickly sold out!

I myself would have to make the pilgrimage!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I listen to opera primarily for the music. Most of the time I do not know what the plot is.

Interesting example, one of the few Wagnerian operas that I like is _Tristan and Isolde_. When I finally got around to seeing it I thought it was completely inane. Still love the music.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Isn't that because the melodies don't flow any more like the ones you mentioned?


I'm not sure. OTELLO obviously "flows" _as drama_, probably better than the operas I listed, and its melodies "flow" too, though of course the other operas are closer to _bel canto_...I just feel that in general there's a lot of pretentiousness with regard to OTELLO (and FALSTAFF). Obviously, it's superb -- but I feel that too often opera lovers exalt it at the expense of Verdi's other great operas.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe that second opinion is not so controversial. _Rigoletto_ is certainly a masterpiece, and Stravinsky actually preferred it to _Otello._ He liked opera that contained distinct forms and didn't care for the "Wagnerian" tendencies of Verdi's late works.


In Stravinsky's THE RAKE'S PROGRESS there's actually a quote from or allusion to RIGOLETTO: when Tom meets Anne again in London (Act II), you hear in the orchestra something that sounds like the part when Rigoletto reunites with Gilda in Act II of Verdi's opera.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

SimonTemplar said:


> True! It's not the strongest dramatically - the first act takes a while to get going, and the second act sags - but there are some wonderful pieces. The Act I finale is like having the top of your head blown off - in a GOOD way; and "A un dottor" a brilliant patter song.
> 
> What is the best comedy, though? _L'italiana_ is sheer joy from start to finish; the young Rossini's score bubbles with glee - just listen to the demented Act I finale with the confused characters cawing, or imitating hammers and cannons like a foundry; or the sneezing quintet (Eccì! Eccì! Eccì!). _Cenerentola _is probably the most human, and _Le Comte Ory _the most elegant, although the Act I finale doesn't have the full effect of the Gran pezzo concertato!
> 
> ...


I think IL BARBIERE is absolutely brilliant from beginning to end; for me it's abundantly clear why it's considered a pinnacle of Italian comic opera. Yet I also agree that L'ITALIANA IN ALGERI is brilliant too, and underrated.

Italian versus Germanic opera -- I think this must be purely a matter of taste; the differences between them seem to be simply a matter of different values and emphases. I've just been listening to TANNHAUSER, and I have to say that I like it _almost_ as much as anything Bellini wrote, even though TANNHAUSER sounds unmistakably German. I like R. Strauss_ almost_ as much as Verdi. So, yeah, I prefer Italian opera, but there's no objective way to say it's better than German.

Which brings me to another controversial opinion: To my ear Strauss's music doesn't sound _all that_ "jarring" or unnerving. Rather, it sounds to me like late-nineteenth century Romanticism mixed with more of a twentieth-century sound. Anything jarring, I think, tends to be in the orchestra rather than in the vocal line. Not being a singer I don't know how Strauss' melodies are to sing, but they must be pretty accessible because I hum them a lot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Does the opinion off Stravinsky actually add anything to your own thoughts?
> Not being rude, just curious


Stravinsky's opinions often have to be taken with a grain of salt. But it's consistent with his own neoclassical aesthetic that he should have preferred the more defined forms of earlier Italian opera to what Wagner called "endless melody" ("no melody at all," snorted Stravinsky, brandishing his cigarette holder and hoisting his feet onto the coffee table as Gertrude Stein, smirking enigmatically, averred that after all a melody is a melody is a melody and that in _Tristan_ there is no there there).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Duplicate post ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> How about the great world opera houses put aside the umpteenth performances of Wagner's Ring and show some real initiative.
> 
> Wipe off the dust-laden scores of Meyerbeer's L'Africaine, Robert le Diable and Les Huguenots!!
> 
> Unjustly neglected!


I must confess whenever I hear an 'unjustly neglected' opera I usually find out why it was neglected! Having said that, Cosi fan Tutte nce fell into the 'unjustly neglected' category.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Who the hell wants to listen to studio recordings when you can watch or listen to live ones (if you are unable to see live opera?) I'd rather listen to an exciting performance from the Teatro Bumfuoco that sounds like it was recorded underwater, than a cold, pristine, sterile studio recording from the greatest conductor in the world.

And yes. I'm talking pirates. PIRATES! PIRATES! If loving pirate tapes is a crime, let me be guilty.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Who the hell wants to listen to studio recordings when you can watch or listen to live ones (if you are unable to see live opera?) I'd rather listen to an exciting performance from the Teatro Bumfuoco that sounds like it was recorded underwater, than a cold, pristine, sterile studio recording from the greatest conductor in the world.


For me they sound the same.
Then I can agree that the sounds of coughs, clapping and steps can give a greater feeling of presence.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Who the hell wants to listen to studio recordings when you can watch or listen to live ones (if you are unable to see live opera?) I'd rather listen to an exciting performance from the Teatro Bumfuoco that sounds like it was recorded underwater, than a cold, pristine, sterile studio recording from the greatest conductor in the world.
> 
> And yes. I'm talking pirates. PIRATES! PIRATES! If loving pirate tapes is a crime, let me be guilty.


I prefer the cleaner, more pure sound of recording personally.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

hpowders said:


> How about the great world opera houses put aside the umpteenth performances of Wagner's Ring and show some real initiative.
> 
> Wipe off the dust-laden scores of Meyerbeer's L'Africaine, Robert le Diable and Les Huguenots!!
> 
> Unjustly neglected!


:clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 9) Italian opera is infinitely better than Austrio-German opera. The former is so much warmer, more sensual and more legato while the latter comes across to me as cold and mechanical.
> 12) As a singer, just listening to Strauss makes me feel as if I'm about to have a vocal hemorrhage.


I'm very late to this party, but bravo for such a fun topic BalaikaBoy!

I'm coming to this topic from a singers perspective as well & couldn't disagree more about these two. I've got about 15 roles learned, having performed a fraction of those, from Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet, Wagner, Beethoven, & Strauss. Nothing in the Italian rep is as exciting to learn or sing as the German. Studying a Wagner score is one of my favorite things to do & imho his compositions are next level when compared with the Italian greats. & the stories do indeed have heart!

Some of the most enjoyable singing I get to do is in Strauss!

Wagner, in particular, is just so much more epic than the Italian composers & that's the stuff that send chills up & down my spine & gets me excited to study roles everyday


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I'm very late to this party, but bravo for such a fun topic BalaikaBoy!
> 
> I'm coming to this topic from a singers perspective as well & couldn't disagree more about these two. I've got about 15 roles learned, having performed a fraction of those, from Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet, Wagner, Beethoven, & Strauss. Nothing in the Italian rep is as exciting to learn or sing as the German. Studying a Wagner score is one of my favorite things to do & imho his compositions are next level when compared with the Italian greats. & the stories do indeed have heart!
> 
> ...


Are you becoming famous one day, you hope ?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Are you becoming famous one day, you hope ?


That's my hope Pugg!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> That's my hope Pugg!


Now you are making me curious even more......


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Now you are making me curious even more......


Haha! Hopefully I'll get to sing in the Netherlands!


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Several controversial ones here. 
Firstly the best duet in Don Giovanni between a male singer and a female singer is not La Ci Darem La mano (which is great) but is instead fuggi crudele fuggi (primarily because of the wonderful melody that goes along with Ah, il padre, il padre mio, dov'è) 

La Traviata is a very good opera that is completely overshadowed by the two that precede it and has one of the more boring baritone arias Verdi wrote. 

Un Ballo in Maschera is also better than La Traviata as it has 
1.A better use of the chorus
2.A better use of the baritone
3.A far better third act 
4.A strong vein of dark humor 
5.A more interesting story 
6.Contralto and Bass voices in somewhat important roles! 
7.A character in opera who actually dies in a way that correlates with the wound's they have received rather thus not taking an eternity to do so. 
Un Ballo in Maschera is therefore sorely underrated

Everything that happened in Il Trovatore is all from the manipulations of Azucena (except the baby thing at the start) who is in actual fact one of the greatest of all opera villains. 

Every single character in Il Trovatore that is named except Azucena, Ferrando and possibly Ines as well is an idiot. 

Il Trittico is Puccini's Magnum opus 

Discuss :devil:


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Faustian, Geraint Evans is not in Solti's recordings of Salome or Elektra but he does sing the title role in Solti's first recording of Falstaff , a role for which he was famous . I'm not sure who you're confusing him with . Certainly not Eberhard Wachter in Solti's Salome or Tom Krause in his Elektra .


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I wonder how "small" Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's voice was. Her detractors usually claim that hers was an impossible career, that she was a soubrette-ish diva of the studio (partly thanks to her powerful husband), who shouldn't have been successful if she sang on stage since the was too small.

But these videos and live performances show that she had a really nice dynamic range:
















And are there any soubrette dare to tackle this monstrous thing by Sibelius?






*Haters gonna hate.*


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

If Tristan, Tannhauser, or Siegfried are not (or never have been) in your rep you are not a heldentenor.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If my tenor can sing Otello and Peter Grimes, he's a heldentenor. Doesn't have to sing the Germans.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> If my tenor can sing Otello and Peter Grimes, he's a heldentenor. Doesn't have to sing the Germans.


How can you be a helden anything if you don't sing in German? If you're not singing the rep for which the term was coined how can you count yourself among them?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> How can you be a helden anything if you don't sing in German? If you're not singing the rep for which the term was coined how can you count yourself among them?


Fine. I will simply call Jon Vickers a "heroic" tenor.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> How can you be a helden anything if you don't sing in German? If you're not singing the rep for which the term was coined how can you count yourself among them?


Why call Kirsten Flagstad a "soprano" if she didn't sing in English?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Fine. I will simply call Jon Vickers a "heroic" tenor.


Vickers sang Wagner, as you know, so I don't understand what you're getting at. There is no helden without Wagner. There is crossover of course but if you're singing Grimes & Otello, but no Wagner, you are a dramatic tenor. You may even have the vocal material for a true heldentenor, but you aren't there yet. Heldentenor & Wagner are synonymous


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The term heldentenor describes a specific voice type, a "belting" tenor. Just because the term is German in no way disqualifies Jon Vickers singing Otello from being labeled a heldentenor, because that is what Otello calls for.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> Vickers sang Wagner, as you know, so I don't understand what you're getting at. There is no helden without Wagner. There is crossover of course but if you're singing Grimes & Otello, but no Wagner, you are a dramatic tenor. You may even have the vocal material for a true heldentenor, but you aren't there yet. Heldentenor & Wagner are synonymous


He was known more for Fidelio, Otello and Peter Grimes; an eclectic mix; a heldentenor for all seasons, so to speak.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> He was known more for Fidelio, Otello and Peter Grimes; an eclectic mix; a heldentenor for all seasons, so to speak.


There is no arguing Vickers, one of the great Tristans & Otellos of all time. But every description of the term heldentenor has the Wagner roles included. You simply are not a heldentenor if you don't sing Wagner. That's why the great Italian dramatic tenors are never referred to as heldentenors.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The word is not the thing. The map is not the territory. Helden, schmelden! If it quacks, etc.

Call me what you will, _oder was du willst._ Just don't call me Shirley.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> There is no arguing Vickers, one of the great Tristans & Otellos of all time. But every description of the term heldentenor has the Wagner roles included. You simply are not a heldentenor if you don't sing Wagner. That's why the great Italian dramatic tenors are never referred to as heldentenors.


Spot on!!!!!!!......................


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I'll see your heldentenor and raise you a Verdi baritone.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I'll see your heldentenor and raise you a Verdi baritone.


Please do not keep us in suspense......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> If my tenor can sing Otello and Peter Grimes, he's a heldentenor. Doesn't have to sing the Germans.


Otello maybe but grimes was written for Pears who certain was not a heldentenor. It was Vickers who actually refashioned the part, something the composer didn't appreciate, though most other people did.,


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Countertenor is by far the worst voice type. They make me uncomfortable? Men should sing like men! I like countertenors as much as I would like it if Renee Fleming opened her mouth & sounded like Matti Salminen. Am I alone in this? Do I sound like a caveman? Don't judge me people!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Countertenor is by far the worst voice type. They make me uncomfortable? Men should sing like men! I like countertenors as much as I would like it if Renee Fleming opened her mouth & sounded like Matti Salminen. Am I alone in this? Do I sound like a caveman? Don't judge me people!


We will be the judge of that


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I like countertenors as much as I would like it if Renee Fleming opened her mouth & sounded like Matti Salminen.


Fleming can do everything else, so why not?


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Countertenor is by far the worst voice type. They make me uncomfortable? Men should sing like men! I like countertenors as much as I would like it if Renee Fleming opened her mouth & sounded like Matti Salminen. Am I alone in this? Do I sound like a caveman? Don't judge me people!


I'm not a fan either. I'm also not particularly fond of basses.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Fleming can do everything else, so why not?


She, Renée Fleming knows her own limitations, can not be said for all singers.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Hasn't been a whole lot of controversy lately, so I thought I'd spice things up a bit :devil: The premise is straightforward enough: post a few of your feather-ruffling opera-related opinions. Additionally, you are free to debate some of the opinions which others have listed. Only rule is: make sure you are respectful of others and their opinions (though it's fine if things get a little heated as long as the lid stays on. I'll ask that the moderators be a little bit lenient in that regard).
> 
> I'll start with a few of mine
> 1) Post-prime Callas was a mezzo and should have been singing Carmen, Azucena or Amneris rather than bel canto coloratura roles (even with that eargasmic portamento.....).
> ...


We agree, wholeheartedly, on No. 1 and No. 8. The Callas Carmen is a great recording, and was recorded so late in her career. I wish she would have redirected her career towards those mezzo roles and continued on, but it was not to be. I love _Barbiere_ but it is sophomoric in comparison to Mozart's mature operas. IMO, _Semiramide_ and _William Tell_ are infinitely superior from an orchestration and composition sense. It's too bad Rossini ended his career so prematurely, after writing this best scores in those two operas.

We disagree on No. 9. I'd be lying if I said I didn't prefer Italian opera to German opera, but Mozart, Beethoven and Wagner have written some of the greatest works, in German, and Italian opera (other than Mozart and perhaps Verdi) has nothing on the works of those composers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

About Callas as a mezzo, I would only remark that although she could have made some superb recordings of mezzo parts, especially in the French repertoire - as with her amazing Carmen, her Charlotte, her Dalila, her Prioress and her Dido (Berlioz) could have raised the bar for interpretative imagination - we can't be sure how her voice would have held up in the theater. Apparently she did find some of Dalila'a lower-lying passages difficult to sustain in the studio. Too bad she didn't try, though. What did she have to lose?


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