# Anton Webern



## Vaneyes

*Webern* Symphony, Op. 21, one of Tom Service's 50 Greatest Symphonies.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/dec/17/symphony-guide-webern-op-21


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## Wandering

I love the string orchestra version of Fünf Sätze with Boulez.


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## Vaneyes

Clovis said:


> I love the string orchestra version of *Fünf Sätze *with Boulez.


Me, too...aka *Five Movements*, which some of us consider to be a most productive day.


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## Wandering

Vaneyes said:


> Me, too...aka *Five Movements*, which some of us consider to be a most productive day.


Better lay off the coffee a while... 

In all seriousness, Boulez is perfect. The fiery hostility and angst intensified by Boulez's ice cold precision. Same reason I'm head over heels for his Stravinsky.


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## Wandering

This looks tempting to me, no reviews though.










It also includes Langsamer Satz arranged for string orchestra by Misha Rachlevsky, hmm?


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## Blake

Wonderful composer. It's funny how your eyes begin to open towards a particular style. Lovely stuff.


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## WienerKonzerthaus

Krzysztof Chorzelski, violist of the Belcea Quartet, talks Anton Webern and Charles Ives while enjoying a cold one.

Anton Webern, Langsamer Satz, and the Belcea Quartet 



http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/345/Krzysztof-Chorzelski-violist-of-the-Belcea-Quartet-has-a-beer-and-talks-Anton-Webern-and-then-some.aspx


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## Jobis

Webern's music is beautiful, therapeutic and timeless. I am beginning to regard him as an all-time-favourite composer of mine.


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## Vaneyes

Jobis said:


> Webern's music is beautiful, therapeutic and timeless. I am beginning to regard him as an all-time-favourite composer of mine.


Then, I'll have to listen closer. :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows

Here are my favorite Webern discs, excluding the Complete Works on DG, of course.


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## Mandryka

I play the op 28 quartet a lot, and the op 27 variations. For me this music sounds very expressive, not at all "formal" , at least in the performances I like. 

And I also would say that the op 21 symphony is one of the very greatest, wonderful from the point of view of melody.


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Here are my favorite Webern discs, excluding the Complete Works on DG, of course.


What is the CD in the middle? I can't make it out, and I'd like a recording of his vocal music.


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## Mahlerian

If you could find it at a reasonable price, I'd say go for it. de Leeuw is an excellent interpreter of modern music.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> If you could find it at a reasonable price, I'd say go for it. de Leeuw is an excellent interpreter of modern music.


The key word here being 'reasonable.' I got mine some years back. It looks like it'll cost you at least 24.99 on Amazon.


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## aleazk

Webern is one of my favorite composers. His music really appeals to me because of its solid dialectic foundation, but at the same time its very natural and attractive sound-world of timbre, lyricism, motivic variations and concise form, which can be perceived and enjoyed without thinking in that dialectic foundation I mentioned. That's, to me, the most successful way in which a "system" can be applied to music composition.

One of my favorites is the _Concerto for nine instruments_.


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## Manxfeeder

Mahlerian said:


> If you could find it at a reasonable price, I'd say go for it. de Leeuw is an excellent interpreter of modern music.


I agree. I wish this one would be rereleased.


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## millionrainbows

Manxfeeder said:


> I agree. I wish this one would be rereleased.


All that KOCH stuff went out of print. I've seem some things reissued on NAXOS.


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## Mandryka

I managed to get a copy of this last night and I agree with Millionrainbows, this is very attractive music and the performances seem sympathetic.


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## hpowders

Lately, the Variations, Opus 27 is starting to make sense to me and sounds like a haunting piece.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> I managed to get a copy of this last night and I agree with Millionrainbows, this is very attractive music and the performances seem sympathetic.


It's one of the best-recorded and mastered things I've ever heard.


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## PabloElFlamenco

This is far and away my favorite Anton Webern music: the string quartets. The Quartetto Italiano rendition is one I have known and loved for a quarter of a century.


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## brotagonist

^ Me, too. I used to have it on LP. Has it finally been issued on CD?


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## Vaneyes

brotagonist said:


> ^ Me, too. I used to have it on LP. Has it finally been issued on CD?


Philips CD OOP.










For those interested, another option is the JSQ performances included in this inexpensive "complete" newly-remastered 3CD box...


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## aleazk

A BBC radio-biography (taken from radio 3):


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## Andreas

Vaneyes said:


> For those interested, another option is the JSQ performances included in this inexpensive "complete" newly-remastered 3CD box...


I got that set and love it very much. Even includes some pieces conducted by Webern himself. Though one day I'll get the Boulez/DG set of complete works too.


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## starthrower

The 3 CD Webern is also available on this 6 disc set
for around the same price.


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## Bluecrab

I got this 3-cd set of Webern's complete works from Amazon some time ago for a ridiculously low price - $9.99, I'm pretty sure. I see that it's gone up to $16... still a great value.

His death was such a tragedy... a huge loss for 20th-century music.


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## Mahlerian

In spite of the video title, this is actually a collection of a number of Webern works (2nd Cantata, Variations for Orchestra, 1st Cantata, if I remember correctly) from the 2013 Lucerne Festival.

For those who care, the video was posted by the copyright holders, so this is an 100% legal video posting, and worth your while to support (for reasons other than just hearing the music, of course).


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## millionrainbows

I think Webern is unique in his use of "sonority." He will emphasize certain intervals in areas of a work, and this is about as close to "harmony" as you're going to get in 12-tone music. But he did not seem as interested in thematic use of the row as Schoenberg was.

I wish they'd do a CD release of the very first "Complete Works" on Columbia Special Products LP boxed set. If you are an old-timer, this was our first introduction to many of Webern's works. The Lieder, sung by Marni Nixon, are exquisite. BTW, this was recorded in mono, conducted by Robert Craft.


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> I think Webern is unique in his use of "sonority." He will emphasize certain intervals in areas of a work, and this is about as close to "harmony" as you're going to get in 12-tone music. But he did not seem as interested in thematic use of the row as Schoenberg was.
> 
> I wish they'd do a CD release of the very first "Complete Works" on Columbia Special Products LP boxed set. If you are an old-timer, this was our first introduction to many of Webern's works. The Lieder, sung by Marni Nixon, are exquisite. BTW, this was recorded in mono, conducted by Robert Craft.


This has just been released as a stream and a download by Biliothèque Nationale de France, widely abailable, on spotify and itunes for example.

Robert Craft's mono recordings can be fabulous.


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## millionrainbows

Naxos site said: 
Not available in the United States, Australia and Singapore due to possible copyright restrictions. Exclusively available for streaming and download. Not available on CD.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Dr. Webern's thesis gained his Ph.D with a thesis on this dude.






The connection between these masters has already been analyzed many times, and it's more than just palindromes what Webern got from Isaac like Ligeti from Ockeghem. Interest in pre-baroque composers has always been there among the great composers from Haydn to Wagner and beyond.


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## Gulden Bolus

Hello to all devoted Webern geeks out there,

I - a composer - for years have been an admirer of Webern's Op. 1 - can't ever get enough of it.
I'm now busy arranging the whole thing for player piano, an instrument i've worked quite often with.
Does anybody know if at all, there has ever been en attemt to re-arrange this piece,
for any setup at all? I can't find any, but I'm really curious.

Cheers,
Ben


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## Xenakiboy

I'm not as familiar with Webern's music but I've heard all of it. The music has a high sense of detail and focus, to me I see that a lot of focus has gone into his output. The Passacaglia (op 1) has an immense sense of power, 6 pieces for orchestra was (in areas) a proto-Varese, the symphony is fantastic, the string quartets are very well crafted, the vocal music is strong too.


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## Xenakiboy

I'm really enjoying Webern's Opus' in the past few days, he has a subtle, delicate touch to his compositional world that I get from works by Feldman, Kurtag and Zorn. It also feels _incredibly_ intimate, even the pieces with orchestra!


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## Xenakiboy

Six Bagatelles deserves a Grammy, that's a really tight little piece! (like Kurtag's 12 Microludes) 
The score is fun AND REALLY REALLY SMALL!!!!! :tiphat:


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## Richannes Wrahms

Op. 20, 21 and 22.


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## millionrainbows

Yes, Webern is _incredibly_ intimate…hey! Hey! Stop that! No! Not there!

That reminds me…there is the Piano Quintet op. posth he wrote with a real angular melody. It's tonal, but really good. It's on the DG box. 





Also, I like Im Sommerwind a whole lot. He was as good a tonalist as anybody.


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## Manxfeeder

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, Webern is _incredibly_ intimate…hey! Hey! Stop that! No! Not there!
> 
> That reminds me…there is the Piano Quintet op. posth he wrote with a real angular melody. It's tonal, but really good. It's on the DG box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I like Im Sommerwind a whole lot. He was as good a tonalist as anybody.


Thanks for the link. I'll take any excuse to hear Webern.

What do you think of the Slow Movement for String Quartet from 1905? It seems to be shutting the door on his Somerwind phase and starting to look beyond it.


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## Scopitone

Wikipedia said:


> On 15 September 1945, returned home during the Allied occupation of Austria, Webern was shot and killed by an American Army soldier following the arrest of his son-in-law forblack market activities. This incident occurred when, three-quarters of an hour before a curfew was to have gone into effect, he stepped outside the house so as not to disturb his sleeping grandchildren, in order to enjoy a few draws on a cigar given him that evening by his son-in-law. The soldier responsible for his death was U. S. Army cook Pfc. Raymond Norwood Bell of North Carolina, who was overcome by remorse and died of alcoholism in 1955.


You guys probably know this story about Anton Webern's death, but I didn't. . .


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## Xenakiboy

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Op. 20, 21 and 22.


The Great Trilogy as it is!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Scopitone said:


> You guys probably know this story about Anton Webern's death, but I didn't. . .


Anton Webern, possibly the first - and only? - composer to have perished due to "friendly fire".


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## KenOC

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Anton Webern, possibly the first - and only? - composer to have perished due to "friendly fire".


I did some research back in 2011 on the man who shot Webern and found this, from his grandson "Chucky", on the Internet:

"my grandfather who killed webern was proven to be the only real killer accidentally of webern.people have said that my grandfather was a trigger happy drunk usa soldier who killed webern and that is not true.my grandfather reurned with his life to america from the tragedy of war and he died because he worried about killing webern and this wory made his alcoholic disease worse and raymond n.bell died because he went into alcoholic shock and he died on his way to the hospital and he died from severe alcoholism at a early age of 40's .raymond n.bell my grandfather died from alcoholism he was sick with hid disease and then weberns death brought him suffering"

So I poked around further and found the following information, not updated from 2011:
-----------------------
Raymond Norwood Bell, the US Army cook who accidentally shot Webern and died of alcoholism in 1955, had a son with his wife Helen Sutton Bell in 1939. This was Charles Norwood "Tinker" Bell Sr., who lived at 506 Northeast Center St. in Mount Olive, NC and died at 69 on March 13 2009 at home. He had been the owner and operator of Bell Auto Sales in Mount Olive. His son with Susie Tillman Bell, in turn, was Charles Norwood "Chucky" Bell Jr., born October 15 1970, who still lives at the same address.

Chucky is a work-at-home notary who lives with his mother. Chucky charges $5.00 for each notarization and his work number is 1-919-658-6546. I also found his home phone and personal e-mail address but won't publish them here. He is a converted Catholic (from Baptist) and used to have a beard but doesn't have one now. He is more than commonly rotund and is partial to full-face photos of himself.

He is also more than commonly fond of 12-tone music and is especially passionate about the music of Anton Webern. A connection through his unhappy grandfather? He writes at length about Webern's shooting and its effect on Webern's widow. He has two sisters whose names I won't mention. There's a LOT about this family you can find in ten minutes using simple searches. Scary! I quit because I felt I was invading their privacy, but this stuff is out there for all to see.
-----------------------
Chucky now has a facebook page, easy enough to find.


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## millionrainbows

> I did some research back in 2011 on the man who shot Webern and found this, from his grandson "Chucky", on the Internet:
> 
> "my grandfather who killed webern was proven to be the only real killer accidentally of webern.people have said that my grandfather was a trigger happy drunk usa soldier who killed webern and that is not true.my grandfather reurned with his life to america from the tragedy of war and he died because he worried about killing webern and this wory made his alcoholic disease worse and raymond n.bell died because he went into alcoholic shock and he died on his way to the hospital and he died from severe alcoholism at a early age of 40's .raymond n.bell my grandfather died from alcoholism he was sick with hid disease and then weberns death brought him suffering"
> 
> So I poked around further and found the following information, not updated from 2011:
> -----------------------
> Raymond Norwood Bell, the US Army cook who accidentally shot Webern and died of alcoholism in 1955, had a son with his wife Helen Sutton Bell in 1939. This was Charles Norwood "Tinker" Bell Sr., who lived at 506 Northeast Center St. in Mount Olive, NC and died at 69 on March 13 2009 at home. He had been the owner and operator of Bell Auto Sales in Mount Olive. His son with Susie Tillman Bell, in turn, was Charles Norwood "Chucky" Bell Jr., born October 15 1970, who still lives at the same address.
> 
> Chucky is a work-at-home notary who lives with his mother. Chucky charges $5.00 for each notarization and his work number is 1-919-658-6546. I also found his home phone and personal e-mail address but won't publish them here. He is a converted Catholic (from Baptist) and used to have a beard but doesn't have one now. He is more than commonly rotund and is partial to full-face photos of himself.
> 
> He is also more than commonly fond of 12-tone music and is especially passionate about the music of Anton Webern. A connection through his unhappy grandfather? He writes at length about Webern's shooting and its effect on Webern's widow. He has two sisters whose names I won't mention. There's a LOT about this family you can find in ten minutes using simple searches. Scary! I quit because I felt I was invading their privacy, but this stuff is out there for all to see.
> -----------------------
> Chucky now has a facebook page, easy enough to find.


So won't this information encourage 'modern music terrorists'?

Modernist Music Matters!!!


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## flamencosketches

Bump for a great composer... it's been almost 3 years in this thread!






Passacaglia, op.1






Symphony, op.21






6 pieces for orchestra, op.6

Where should I go from here? As I've made obvious, I'm a fan of Karajan's conducting here, but am more than willing to branch out.

Is Boulez's Complete Webern edition the way to go? I have heard mixed things. Have any other conductors made editions to rival it?


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> Is Boulez's Complete Webern edition the way to go? I have heard mixed things. Have any other conductors made editions to rival it?


I have both of Boulez's complete editions. The first one is more clinical and the second is more free. It depends on how you like Webern to sound. If you like Karajan's conducting of Webern and want an overall collection, I think you'll like his second edition. At least I've been happy with it.

And if you ever stumble on deLeeuw's Webern with Dorothy Dorow, I think it's worth hearing. It has a nice sense of space and sensitivity. It's out of print, but sometimes it shows up on sites like SymphonyShare.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Bump for a great composer... it's been almost 3 years in this thread!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passacaglia, op.1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Symphony, op.21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6 pieces for orchestra, op.6
> 
> Where should I go from here? As I've made obvious, I'm a fan of Karajan's conducting here, but am more than willing to branch out.
> 
> Is Boulez's Complete Webern edition the way to go? I have heard mixed things. Have any other conductors made editions to rival it?


If you're interested in piano try Idl Biret, her Schoenberg and Boulez are excellent too. There are some outstanding early recordings by Boulez, especially of the cantatas, with Domaine Musical -- I found them through releases bia Bibiotheque National de France.

The last time I listened seriously to Webern, it was the op 7 pieces for violin and piano, which are lovely I think.


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## flamencosketches

As you may have been able to deduce from our previous conversations about Chopin, I am definitely a lover of the piano.  As for Idil Biret, I have only heard her playing Chopin, from a CD I used to borrow from my girlfriend. I'll look into her recordings of Webern (and Schoenberg too, that's another major composer I have yet to even really attempt to get into - Boulez I like, but haven't heard any piano music). 

I will look into the violin+piano pieces as well. I have heard none of his chamber music.


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## Mandryka

Biret's Chopin hasn't ever much caught my imagination, apart from one thing. Her mazurkas.

She doesn't have a subtle, colourful, nuanced touch; she does not have a sensitive and imaginative way of expressing herself.

Nevertheless, I love this, because it's so intense. It's totally magnetic, hypnotic. I feel I can sense her sincerity completely. I can't stop listening once I start - and I'm ready to tolerate her limitations.


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## Haydn70

When I was an undergrad composition major, Webern was my idol and all my music as an undergrad had a strong Webernish flavor. I still have some scores (Op. 5, Op. 10, Op. 27, Op. 31) and own the Robert Craft and first Boulez boxed sets on LP. The only pieces I have heard in concert are the Op. 5 Five Movements for String Quartet and twice the Op. 10 Five Pieces for Orchestra. The best performance of the Op. 10 was by Giulini leading the L.A. Philharmonic, sometime during his tenure in L.A. (1978-1984). He made the music about as beautiful as it can be made…which isn’t saying much. After completion of the piece, it was immediately repeated.


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## Manxfeeder

Haydn70 said:


> . After completion of the piece, it was immediately repeated.


Nice! Webern is so short, that's probably the best way to get it programmed.


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## flamencosketches

Haydn70 said:


> He made the music about as beautiful as it can be made…which isn't saying much. After completion of the piece, it was immediately repeated.


:lol:

That's rich. Indeed, if I was at an all Webern orchestral concert, I'd be pretty upset if they didn't play everything at least twice. I'd feel like I'm not getting my money's worth in time.

Do you still enjoy his music? If so, do you have a favorite piece?

@Manxfeeder, thank you for the suggestion: I had been wondering which to go for. So his second edition is the one on DG, the first on Sony? Clinical is not something I like in this style of music; that's pretty much the reason I don't enjoy much of Schoenberg (beyond the early stuff like Verklärte Nacht). I will have to go for the DG one. Shame, it looks more expensive


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## flamencosketches

Well, contrary to my previous post, I pulled the trigger on the Sony edition :lol: I figure if I want lyrical Webern, I can continue listening to Karajan's recordings of his works. I trust Boulez as an interpreter; he is a favorite of mine, and probably my number one favorite conductor of early 20th century music. Plus, 3 discs sounds less daunting than 6 for a composer with whom I'm so inexperienced. 

If I really hate it, I'm only out $15


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## Flutter

flamencosketches said:


> Do you still enjoy his music? If so, do you have a favorite piece?


For me, it'd have to be be one of the following (they're all too amazing to pick a single one...)

Op 6, Op 9, Op 21, Op 24 and/or Op 27.

Masterpieces down to the millisecond!


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## Flutter

Haydn70 said:


> When I was an undergrad composition major, Webern was my idol and all my music as an undergrad had a strong Webernish flavor.


I listened to him quite obsessively at one point. Although I don't listen to him as frequently these days, he is still as much of an idol now as he was for me back in my teens. His music is very fulfilling on many levels, he's kind of like Mahler and Stockhausen (both of who I love) combined in the Quantum realm!
And along with that analogy, his music has Mahler's melodic/emotional force and Stockhausen's meticulous harmonic and rhythmic structuralism. So Webern's music appeals to both Mahler's romanticism and Stockhausen's spaciness.


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> Well, contrary to my previous post, I pulled the trigger on the Sony edition :lol: I figure if I want lyrical Webern, I can continue listening to Karajan's recordings of his works. I trust Boulez as an interpreter; he is a favorite of mine, and probably my number one favorite conductor of early 20th century music. Plus, 3 discs sounds less daunting than 6 for a composer with whom I'm so inexperienced.
> 
> If I really hate it, I'm only out $15


Ha! Actually, Boulez doesn't conduct a lot of it, because there are a lot of vocal and small group pieces. And the performers are the best of the best from that time, like the Julliard Quartet and Charles Rosen on piano.

If you wait long enough, you might find the other one cheaper eventually. I stumbled on the DG collection at the Nashville used CD store for $17. I audibly gasped when I saw it, drawing skewed glances from those huddled in the country music section.


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## flamencosketches

Well, I've been enjoying that set very much over the past couple of days. I hadn't heard any of his lieder before, and some of them are really good. Charles Rosen's piano playing is excellent. (Coincidentally, I digress, I just ordered his book "The Classical Style" and am looking forward to reading it). As for the orchestral works, Boulez is clearly aiming to expose a different element than what Karajan is going for. The Austrian seems to emphasize the ties to late/post-Romanticism in his music (and strong ties they are; I definitely hear echoes of Wagner in some of it) while Boulez seems to bury them and aims for a more austere rendering. Both are enjoyable approaches, and I can't decide which I prefer. 

As for now, I am glad that I purchased the earlier and briefer set - 6 discs of Webern would be a lot to parse through for a new initiate like myself. But I look forward to listening to it in the future. 

The chamber works, I think, are my favorite so far - the violin and piano pieces, the Movements for String Quartet, the little pieces for Cello and Piano, etc. But Webern was also a master of exploiting coloristic effects from the orchestra.

Anyway, Boulez and Karajan have both been revelatory. I never saw myself becoming a fan of anyone out of the Second Viennese School and here I am now, slightly obsessed with all three, but especially Webern.

Apologies for the journal entry. I have no friends in real life who I can talk to about atonal music. :lol:


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## norman bates

flamencosketches said:


> Is Boulez's Complete Webern edition the way to go? I have heard mixed things. Have any other conductors made editions to rival it?


I don't understand a lot about direction, but while I'm not a fan of Boulez the composer I really liked his rendition of Webern. And considering that Boulez was deeply influenced by Webern he had the right sensibility for the music.


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## joen_cph

Zimerman's rendition of the tiny _Klavierstück, Im Tempo eines Menuetts_, in the Boulez box, is fabulous.


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## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> Zimerman's rendition of the tiny _Klavierstück, Im Tempo eines Menuetts_, in the Boulez box, is fabulous.


Has anyone else recorded this?


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## joen_cph

A good deal, normally they list it under the German title. 
Arciuli and Klein are very lifeless IMO, I skipped them, for example.
There are several on you-tube, but the Zimerman is incredible, IMO. I can listen to it for a long time on repeat.


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## paulbest

Yes the 2 Boulez sets are exceptional. The Sony can be had for $20, the DG never lists below $50, No one is willing to part with the DG set. 
I have almost every Webern recording in print, I am a Webernian.
paul
New Orleans


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> Yes the 2 Boulez sets are exceptional. The Sony can be had for $20, the DG never lists below $50, No one is willing to part with the DG set.
> I have almost every Webern recording in print, I am a Webernian.
> paul
> New Orleans


I just got the Sony one for I think 18 shipped. Can't complain, I'm loving it so far. Sounds like the DG one is even better, so I will be looking forward to spending time with it in the future. As a new Webern-head, the 3 discs of the Sony will give me a lot to work with for now, in addition to recordings by Quartetto Italiano (they are incredible in Webern), Karajan/Berlin, etc. But I'm looking forward to hearing 3 additional discs of Webern whenever I decide to move onto the newer set.

Webern has very quickly risen to the top of my favorite composers. He was a genius no question about it.

What are some of your favorite works of his?


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## paulbest

I love all Webern equally = everything he score is my favotite, as I ama Webernian.
Took some time to come around to Webern, his genius is *unreal*, that is, though his works are short, some just 1 minute, are *timeless/eternal*. That is to say, every time I hear his pieces, it always seems fresh and new. 
More later,,I am new here and have a lot to say about my favorite composers. Yes the DG set almost never goews below $50, neither ebay nor amazon. If you have the Sony, stay with that until you decide further on the DG set. 
Webern is eternal, that is beyond space and time. 
paul
The Webernian
New Orleans


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## flamencosketches

Great to have you around Paul. I am relatively new too, not just to the forum but to classical music in general. I am surprised how much I have connected with Webern's music so quickly. With as intricate as his works are, I feel like I can listen to them over and over and catch something new every time, much as in Beethoven and Bach, yet he gets away with it in so much less space and time. It's amazing, he was a master craftsman. 

Through Webern I am slowly starting to get into his teacher Schoenberg and especially his slightly younger contemporary Alban Berg. I have been listening to both of their violin concertos lately. The three could not be more vastly different in style despite sharing the common thread of atonality and later dodecaphony.


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## paulbest

Well its been some time, more than 13 yrs since I last posted ona classical chat site. A few of the old CMGers, GMGers will remember me. I've changed quite a bit since then, in so many ways.
Especilally my musical selections. 
I've moved on. 
My posts will show which I am really supportive of. I'ma sort of classical yellow vest, I take strong positions on classical composers. But I've learned to respect others opinions in musical taste. Showing others respect opens the door to present my opinions as to which composers I feel has been over looked/neglected/undiscovered/ahead of his time. 
Lately, this past month, my latest major discovery, and perhaps the final major discovery, is Hans Henze. My principle objective in joining, is to promote the significance of this late 20th C modern composer. I am looking for his composer page, but I can not find it. 
Do you know if there is a Henze topic in composers section?


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## KenOC

Hans Henze thread is *here*.


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## paulbest

KenOC said:


> Hans Henze thread is *here*.


Thanks
as I have been searching now for some 20 minutes, and just now gave up,,then see your kind post. See you folks over there
Paul
The Henzeian


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## unhandyandy

I have phases of fascination with Webern. I've just gone through the Symphony note by note, parsing it into the sequence of double canons. It's been enlightening.

But I wonder if anyone actually hears the symphony as a sequence of double canons - did even Webern actually hear it that way? You certainly hear constant echos, but did Webern think of the canons as deep rather than surface structure?


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## paulbest

unhandyandy said:


> I have phases of fascination with Webern. I've just gone through the Symphony note by note, parsing it into the sequence of double canons. It's been enlightening.
> 
> But I wonder if anyone actually hears the symphony as a sequence of double canons - did even Webern actually hear it that way? You certainly hear constant echos, but did Webern think of the canons as deep rather than surface structure?


You see , now that ii am near retirement (retired from a formal job, but still working in renovating my new purchase ofa home here in Kenner), soon I will have time to go into further concentrated listenings to Webern. But as I have no musical training, what you have discovered, is a level which escapes my hearings. 
But am glad to have comments like yours, so I too can know of how his music works out in a more tech level.

Webern 's music is simply amazing. While many of us are drawn to the old great classics, for musical beauty, textures, emotive constructs, Webern by contrast, *could seem* cold, distant, perhaps may not fall into the classical model for what is *the beautiful (reference to Plato's conceptual arychetype ideas).

Yet to many of us who love Webern, there is a inherent beauty , which evokes deep powerful emotional effects.

Excellent Q, you raised here, and hope to make this same observation next time I hear it.
I would say, Webern's music is multi level structured music. Seemingly simple even bare, nothing like saya Mahler large orchestra construct, , yet runs deep..\
What I just noted here in Webern's 5 Orchestral Pieces op10, is the Webern/Verese connection. 
So it is Webern inspiring Varese, and Varese passing his ideas on to Elliott Carter.

Although *only* just over 4 minutes, it stands equal to our favorite symphonies which are over 1 hour long.

How is this possible. Obviously the emotive depth aspects of Webern run much deeper, broader, higher than our traditional formal composers. 
I would characterize Webern as a *depth classical composer*. Schnittke too falls into this category, as does Elliott Carter. There is more going on than meets the ear.


----------



## Larkenfield

Regarding his _Symphony,_ this might be of interest to Webern admirers (of which I am one):



> Webern's _Symphony_ is in two movements and uses symmetry as its guiding force. The row is symmetrical: its final six pitches are a transposed retrograde of its first six pitches. Similarly, many of the vertical relations contain mirror symmetry (the intervallic content of the upper half of the chord is mirrored in the lower half of the chord) and some sections are in effect palindromes [a sequence that sounds the same forward and backwards] - reflecting around a central point. Both movements contain complex canons. The first is in a binary form with internal retrogrades of large sections, while the second proceeds as a theme with seven variations and a coda.
> 
> Webern was clearly proud of his accomplishments. He writes of the _Symphony_ in a 1932 lecture:
> 
> _"Greater unity is impossible. Even the Netherlanders didn't manage it. In the fourth variation there are constant mirroring. This variation is itself the midpoint of the whole movement, after which everything goes backwards. So the entire movement is itself a double canon by retrograde motion!
> 
> Now I must say this: what you see here ... - constantly the same thing - isn't to be regarded as a "tour de force"; that would be ludicrous. I was to create as many connections as possible, and you must allow that there are indeed many connections here!
> 
> Finally I must point out to you that this is so not only in music. We find an analogy in language. I was delighted to find that such connections also often occur in Shakespeare, in alliteration and assonance. He even turns a phrase backwards. Karl Kraus' handling of language is also based on this: unity also has to be created here, since it enhances comprehensibility."_ [unquote]
> 
> How about that!


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## unhandyandy

Maybe this will interest you. I've color coded the canonic voices in this score.

Webern Symphony


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## flamencosketches

unhandyandy said:


> Maybe this will interest you. I've color coded the canonic voices in this score.
> 
> Webern Symphony


Nice work. I shall have to listen to the symphony later with this pulled up. It is truly a fascinating work. One of his greatest.


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## millionrainbows

I listen to Webern in terms of intervals, not as points. Not sure if this applies here. I.e, harmonic vs. melodic. Is an interval harmonic? Yes. There are only six, plus their inversions. m2, M2, m3, M3, P4, Tritone = 6. Plus M7, m7, M6, m6, P5 = 12.

Interval class:
3 1 1 4 1 6 1 4 1 1 3Anton Webern:
Symphony, Op. 21[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][64][/SUP]1928

m3, m2, m2, M3, m2, T, m2, M3, m2, m2, m3.


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## unhandyandy

It's interesting that the intervals in the row of the symphony are mostly semitones, with some mM3's and a tritone. But vertically Webern is happy to use unisons, octaves, P4s, and P5s.


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## unhandyandy

He also softens the semitones into M7s or m9s, both vertically _and_ horizontally. The net effect is that the symphony sounds much less dissonant than what one normally associates with the 12-tone method.


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## millionrainbows

Our row intervals are m3, m2, m2, M3, m2, T, m2, M3, m2, m2, m3.

At first I hear a lot of minor 9s, the inversion of a m2. That fits. Then I hear a few fourths creep in. I hear a couple of minor sevenths (inversion of a M2). The P4s I keep hearing: is this part of the canon, a transposed fourth-up row? In the middle, louder, a couple of M7s for the first time, also an inv. of m2. And so on...


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## unhandyandy

Here's a piano roll view of the 1st variation from the 2nd movement. You can see the double mirror canon structure even more clearly.


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## millionrainbows

unhandyandy said:


> He also softens the semitones into M7s or m9s, both vertically _and_ horizontally. The net effect is that the symphony sounds much less dissonant than what one normally associates with the 12-tone method.


Also, this wide vertical spacing makes the notes sound more "isolated" than if they were part of a narrative melody. This gives the effect of single pitches as "events" in isolation. Thus I find Webern's sense of experienced time (timelessness) to be very portentious.


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## millionrainbows

unhandyandy said:


> Here's a piano roll view of the 1st variation from the 2nd movement. You can see the double mirror canon structure even more clearly.
> 
> View attachment 118749


It's the "big eye in the sky."


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## flamencosketches

unhandyandy said:


> Here's a piano roll view of the 1st variation from the 2nd movement. You can see the double mirror canon structure even more clearly.
> 
> View attachment 118749


That is fascinating! Do you have the voices/instrumentation color coded at all with a key somewhere? Even if not, I will have to try and follow along with this.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Also, this wide vertical spacing makes the notes sound more "isolated" than if they were part of a narrative melody. This gives the effect of single pitches as "events" in isolation. Thus I find Webern's sense of experienced time (timelessness) to be very portentious.


Interesting comments. 
Yes I get this sense of timelessness from much of Webern's music,,,Mesmerizing , captivating, ,,timeless not only in the sense of the experience , but as well in the music itself. That is to say, in 100, even 1000 yrs from now, it will sound as fresh as the day he scored.

also can you explain more on your choice of words, *portentious*.

Take these 4 *short* pieces, written in 1910!!!???!!! OP7, for violin and piano.

Although short in actual time duration, the spaciousness , , seems broad , wide, walls are nonexistent …
Written in 1910, could have been scored yesterday and we would all be like *WOW did you see the new release of Webern's op7*,,*Yes, its UNREAL, just unreal*

Note the uploader's comment in the descript

*written in 1910 must have sounded like music from Mars...*


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## Flutter

unhandyandy said:


> Here's a piano roll view of the 1st variation from the 2nd movement. You can see the double mirror canon structure even more clearly.
> 
> View attachment 118749


It looks amazing, thanks for sharing!


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> Interesting comments.
> Yes I get this sense of timelessness from much of Webern's music,,,Mesmerizing , captivating, ,,timeless not only in the sense of the experience , but as well in the music itself. That is to say, in 100, even 1000 yrs from now, it will sound as fresh as the day he scored.
> 
> also can you explain more on your choice of words, *portentious*.
> 
> Take these 4 *short* pieces, written in 1910!!!???!!! OP7, for violin and piano.
> 
> Although short in actual time duration, the spaciousness , , seems broad , wide, walls are nonexistent …
> Written in 1910, could have been scored yesterday and we would all be like *WOW did you see the new release of Webern's op7*,,*Yes, its UNREAL, just unreal*
> 
> Note the uploader's comment in the descript
> 
> *written in 1910 must have sounded like music from Mars...*


Great post. Webern is a rare composer who is very of his time (I don't think he could have existed at any other point in history), yet also VERY ahead of his time. Composers have been trying to catch up ever since. Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, and the whole American serialist movement, none of it would have existed without Webern. He really kicked down the proverbial door. Hell of a guy. His music changed my life


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## flamencosketches

Isn't it kind of crazy that Webern could have been a worthy successor to Mahler if he chose to? :lol:


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## Flutter

flamencosketches said:


> Isn't it kind of crazy that Webern could have been a worthy successor to Mahler if he chose to? :lol:


Well, I'd argue that he _was_ (Mahler's successor)


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Great post. Webern is a rare composer who is very of his time (I don't think he could have existed at any other point in history), yet also VERY ahead of his time. Composers have been trying to catch up ever since. Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, and the whole American serialist movement, none of it would have existed without Webern. He really kicked down the proverbial door. Hell of a guy. His music changed my life


So, you hear Webern as more a influence than say Varese,
I hear Vareseque ideas in quite a few important composers, especially Elliott Carter,,,,,but come to think about it, yes Webern too.

As well Berg has powerful influences on almost all mod operas, Henze, Schnittke, you name it, almost all took leads from Berg's masterpieces.


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## paulbest

The Imsommerwind link you posted,,,must be either Sinopoli or wosre Karajan.
I really do not like this *version/interpretation* you posted...
Let me try to find either Boulez/Sony or even better Boulez/DG..

There is something wrong with that *version*. 
has to be either Karajan ,,,or maybe Sinopoli

Or maybe its Abbado.


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> Interesting comments.
> Yes I get this sense of timelessness from much of Webern's music,,,Mesmerizing , captivating, ,,timeless not only in the sense of the experience , but as well in the music itself. That is to say, in 100, even 1000 yrs from now, it will sound as fresh as the day he scored.
> 
> also can you explain more on your choice of words, *portentious*.


Like "a portent of things to come;" I probably got it from reading Doctor Strange comics.


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## paulbest

Yes Ok, its Sinopoli...which I know you and others here have made good comments on.
I had that cd, dumped it, and rebought,,,and now I know why I dumped it (either sold cheap, or put in the garbage can), …
Here, this Boulez /DG is perhaps the definitive.,,even better than his Sony recording.


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> The Imsommerwind link you posted,,,must be either Sinopoli or wosre Karajan.
> I really do not like this *version/interpretation* you posted...
> Let me try to find either Boulez/Sony or even better Boulez/DG..
> 
> There is something wrong with that *version*.
> has to be either Karajan ,,,or maybe Sinopoli
> 
> Or maybe its Abbado.


It is Sinopoli. I love its lush textures. Unhip opinion, maybe, but I love Karajan's Webern. His Passacaglia and 6 Pieces with Berlin are what got me into Webern. Moreover, their Symphony opus 21 is amazing. I prefer it to the Boulez/London I also have.

Varèse is of course another major influence on modernism, especially for how un-prolific he was.


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## flamencosketches

I'd love to hear the Boulez Sommerwind if you can find it.

Edit: I see you have shared it. I'll listen after work. 

Curious though, what about Sinopoli do you find so repulsive?


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Like "a portent of things to come;" I probably got it from reading Doctor Strange comics.


ahhh Ok, ties in with the YT uploader's idea the music must have seemed as if from *Mars* = outerspace.


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## paulbest

Yes, well in this Webern piece, I prefer how Boulez hakes it more soft, quite in the opening. Also the wind solist, I think its a clarinet, seems a bit sour/off. at second 41 in the Sinoploi and at second 36 in the Boulez.

Just tiny things like that , can cause me to dismiss one record over another....I'm a bit neurotic in my ultimate fav composers, I like only 10 stars, of 10. . But I am also a completist, which is why I repurchased. 
Sharper, finer playing from the mighty Berliners, vs the small town band, the Dresdeners. .


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> ahhh Ok, ties in with the YT uploader's idea the music must have seemed as if from *Mars* = outerspace.


Or another timeless dimension...The Twilight Zone?


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## flamencosketches

Ah I see. Funny, I prefer the Dresden Staatskapelle over Berlin most of the time. But I can see what you mean.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Ah I see. Funny, I prefer the Dresden Staatskapelle over Berlin most of the time. But I can see what you mean.


Yes I have the powerful Dresden in Mozart's piano concertos with Annerose Schmidt/Kurt Masur. Great orchestral playing for sure.

But here in Webern, its all about subtleties 
I should have said the clarinet (? not sure which wind instrument it is) is not sour, but a tad too forward/loud.

Im Sommerwind is sucha drifty, dreamy piece, so I like a performance that takes me as far away from this world as possible.

I want to be lulled into that atmosphere which was in the mind of Webern while he scored. 
Some forest, with gently flowing streams, and you can see valleys down below through the tops of the mighty pines and red woods....summer white clouds in billowy formations, peaking high above the canyon's red color buff's and buttes. A place you never want to leave.

Perhaps now I am more clear betwixt the 2.

Does this help?


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> It is Sinopoli. I love its lush textures. Unhip opinion, maybe, but I love Karajan's Webern. His Passacaglia and 6 Pieces with Berlin are what got me into Webern. Moreover, their Symphony opus 21 is amazing. I prefer it to the Boulez/London I also have.
> 
> Varèse is of course another major influence on modernism, especially for how un-prolific he was.


Ohhhh, Karajan. Never, in nothing.,,well no, actually his 1954 Parsifal was truly great, ,,,down hill after that.

Can not recall, the Boulez/London,,,tell you what ,,,in all fairness, I will listen to the Karajan Webern,,,

Yes great point, Varese did not have a expansive oeuvre , just enough ideas to make deep powerful impressions in his peers and other greats who followed his ideas.

I think Elliott Carter owes a much greater debt to Varese than to Webern.

Addressed to the musical genius we have here on TC, how much Varese influence do you hear in this Elliott Carter work, A Symphony of Three Orchestras?


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## paulbest

old dogs CAN learn new tricks,,,you see I avoided all Karajan records, past 35 yrs....yet from a recommend from flamencoskteches,,,I decided to ..at least....give his Webern a chance,,,and you know,,,Karajan's idiosyncratic ideas, ,,,believe it or NOT,,,have actually brought in a brand new perspective,,,well whatya know...
I actually think I might like it.
The Boulez record hasa more harsh, quicker tempo, and at times *bugs * me,,,yet I can easily over,look Boulez's tempos , due to the fantastic playing in the Berliners and also the Londoners.

Here Karajan offers something I may actually prefer over Boulez/DG. around 2:23,,, the percussion is a bit more contained, tamed/milder vs both Boulez...

I will definitely be ordering,,,Karajan (never thought I'd see the day...*...today.
Thanks a lot for that recommend friend flamencosketches,,,had you not suggested, more than likely, never made the purchase,,,wow, old dogs can learn new tricks. 

I see it says *Kubelik* in the descript,,,but I think this is Karajan and not Kubelik,,,I know I am not going to like Kubelik,,I do not like his Mozart.

Karajan here?


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## paulbest

Kubelik 1953/Chicago,,,we should at least grant the great Maestro a applause for bringing Webern to audiences wayyyy back in 1953,

Karajan, Boulez, Abbado had at least some record to base their ideas , on how the score should go.

In its day, and up to Karajan's, Boulez's records, , this Kubelik and Bruno Madera were perhaps the 2 best conductors in Webern.


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## Flutter

paulbest said:


> I think Elliott Carter owes a much greater debt to Varese than to Webern.
> 
> Addressed to the musical genius we have here on TC, how much Varese influence do you hear in this Elliott Carter work, A Symphony of Three Orchestras?


Definitely Varese at it's various climaxes, there _are_ some Webernian subtleties though.

Varese influence in Carter really shows within works like "Double Concerto for piano, harpsichord and 2 chamber orchestras".

Also, if you haven't heard it yet, Carter's Concerto for Orchestra is out of this world, on another level (as with Webern's Op 21).


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## philoctetes

paulbest said:


> Kubelik 1953/Chicago,,,we should at least grant the great Maestro a applause for bringing Webern to audiences wayyyy back in 1953,
> 
> Karajan, Boulez, Abbado had at least some record to base their ideas , on how the score should go.
> 
> In its day, and up to Karajan's, Boulez's records, , this Kubelik and Bruno Madera were perhaps the 2 best conductors in Webern.
> 
> ]


Poor Kubelik, run out of Chicago by the press to make way for Reiner, but we have this:










I was really into Carter in the 80s, went to his 80th birthday celebration in SF, but not lately so I need to hear some of his older stuff again...

btw, I like Karajan's Webern as well, he adds a little meat to the bones which is better for Webern than with Berg or Schoenberg... the 5 pieces and the Symphony especially... Karajan is where I heard all those composers for the first time in the 70s... avoid Donahnyi

I would love to have a recording of the Berlin Phil's concert in SF a few years ago where Rattle conducted a suite that combined the best of all three composers... the dynamics were tremendous within the hall.


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## paulbest

WOW YES, Would love to have a cd of Rattle/Berlin live SF concert. I am sure it was memorable.


*avoid Donahnyi*, second that 


Yes Karajan is excellent,,,but here I will have to give the Berliners more credit than Karajan, remember what Horowtitz says, *the orch is far (my addition) more important than who is conducting*.


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> WOW YES, Would love to have a cd of Rattle/Berlin live SF concert. I am sure it was memorable.
> 
> *avoid Donahnyi*, second that
> 
> Yes Karajan is excellent,,,but here I will have to give the Berliners more credit than Karajan, remember what Horowtitz says, *the orch is far (my addition) more important than who is conducting*.


Fair enough! Glad you liked the recordings, had a feeling you might. I'm not always a fan of his interpretations either, but Karajan brings a very different sensibility to these works than does Boulez. As another poster said, more meat on the bones. As you say, the orchestra does have a lot to do with this. For this reason, I'm looking forward to hearing Boulez's Sommerwind with the same orchestra.

Not familiar enough with Carter to speak re: him, Webern, and Varèse. A composer like Boulez for example, I would say, owes equal to both composers, and without either one, he probably never would have became who he was.

:cheers:


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## flamencosketches

Really liking this so far, Paul. I can begin to hear the visual cues you used to describe it. 

I still say there's room in the world for both this and the Sinopoli/Dresden though.


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## unhandyandy

I'm working on a midi encoding of the four canonic voices, each in a separate track and channel. I'm more interested in the mutations of the row, so there is no instrumentation so far. If I add that, it will be as patch signals within the same channel, and it will not be color coded


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Really liking this so far, Paul. I can begin to hear the visual cues you used to describe it.
> 
> I still say there's room in the world for both this and the Sinopoli/Dresden though.


 Agree, in Webern we should all be very grateful no matter how the performance comes off. I much more forgiving now that I am older. well I should say depends on the composer, 
In Debussy, Ravel piano, I am picky.

It was the manner in which you suggested Karajan, that I just had to go ck it out,,,and was surprised how much I found the Berliners doing something different from Boulez.
I am not fond of Boulez's compositions, nor Segerstam for that matter.

I will have to go through my Webern cd collection, and report back,,,, just moved, everything is boxed up.


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## millionrainbows

unhandyandy said:


> I'm working on a midi encoding of the four canonic voices, each in a separate track and channel. I'm more interested in the mutations of the row, so there is no instrumentation so far. If I add that, it will be as patch signals within the same channel, and it will not be color coded


Cool! the piano-roll looks like it came from Logic. I have Logic as my recording program.

Im Sommerwind is my favorite late-Romantic piece. I first heard it on this vinyl LP a long, long time ago:


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## flamencosketches

It's crazy that he wrote that piece at age 20. 

Hearing Boulez's Sommerwind with Berlin makes me really curious to hear his Complete Webern on DG. As much as I love the Sony Webern edition he put together, it is missing several hours worth of works that were not given opus numbers, including this great early idyll.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Hearing Boulez's Sommerwind with Berlin makes me really curious to hear his Complete Webern on DG. As much as I love the Sony Webern edition he put together, it is missing several hours worth of works that were not given opus numbers, including this great early idyll.


Indeed, that DG set is "required listening" to everyone. It's the reference recording when it comes to observing Webern's output as a whole. I'm fond of many performances on the Sony set but the DG is absolutely essential - especially since it's by far more complete a set!


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## millionrainbows

What I like about The DG set compared to the Sony is that it's complete, and I like the lieder better. Other than that, I prefer the Sony recordings of all the rest of it. In those terms for me, both are essential.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> View attachment 119140
> What I like about The DG set compared to the Sony is that it's complete, and I like the lieder better. Other than that, I prefer the Sony recordings of all the rest of it. In those terms for me, both are essential.


Very interesting! What are some traits that you might use to describe each set, especially when compared to each other?

It's always interesting when a conductor decides to take up a huge project like recording the complete works of a composer not just once, but to repeat the huge undertaking later on in life. Something must have changed in Boulez's life for him to think "I could do it over again better"...?


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Very interesting! What are some traits that you might use to describe each set, especially when compared to each other?
> 
> It's always interesting when a conductor decides to take up a huge project like recording the complete works of a composer not just once, but to repeat the huge undertaking later on in life. Something must have changed in Boulez's life for him to think "I could do it over again better"...?


I just like the engineering on the Sony set; the recording is more pleasing to me. I like Christane Olze's singing better on the DG set.


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## unhandyandy

I've finished the midi version of the Symphony - at least I've entered all the voices, while paying no attention to instrumentation, dynamics, and tempo (apart from the metronome markings Webern gave). I did this mainly as an exercise for myself to learn about Webern's serialist techniques; but maybe this could eventually evolve into something listenable. Right now if you set all four voices to strings it's just about recognizable as Webern's Symphony.

You may enjoy displaying the midi file in piano roll notation, where the canonic techniques become perspicuous. Here's the entire first movement (with repeats).









And here's the second movement.









Here are the files. I'm sure there are mistakes, let me know what you find.

movement 1

movement 2


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## philoctetes

Problem with the DG set is not performance but the sound engineering that DG was pushing at the time. Too recessive, diaphanous to a fault... sounding good at high levels only - and a lot of Boulez was recorded that way...


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## philoctetes

.............................................. editor malfunction


----------



## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I just like the engineering on the Sony set; the recording is more pleasing to me. I like Christane Olze's singing better on the DG set.


I see. So performance wise, would you say not much had changed between the two sets in terms of approach? Just the engineering?

It's generally agreed that Sony/Columbia engineers > DG, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## unhandyandy

philoctetes said:


> Problem with the DG set is not performance but the sound engineering that DG was pushing at the time. Too recessive, diaphanous to a fault... sounding good at high levels only - and a lot of Boulez was recorded that way...


I'm not sure what "recessive" and "diaphanous" mean in this context - they sound almost contradictory.


----------



## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> I see. So performance wise, would you say not much had changed between the two sets in terms of approach? Just the engineering?
> 
> It's generally agreed that Sony/Columbia engineers > DG, as far as I'm concerned.


I'd have to do an A/B test to tell you. I doubt there is much difference. I agree with Philocetes, I like "drier" recordings than the DG. Some of the Sony was recorded in various town halls, some in studios. Maybe these were more like soundstages than concert halls. As you might recall, I preferred the Boulez Wozzeck above all others, because it was recorded on a soundstage, and got the nickname of "the dry Wozzeck."
I think "diaphonous and recessive" means airy, ambient, wet, spacious, i.e. all the things that close-miking avoids.


----------



## millionrainbows

unhandyandy said:


> I've finished the midi version of the Symphony - at least I've entered all the voices, while paying no attention to instrumentation, dynamics, and tempo (apart from the metronome markings Webern gave). I did this mainly as an exercise for myself to learn about Webern's serialist techniques; but maybe this could eventually evolve into something listenable. Right now if you set all four voices to strings it's just about recognizable as Webern's Symphony.
> 
> You may enjoy displaying the midi file in piano roll notation, where the canonic techniques become perspicuous. Here's the entire first movement (with repeats).
> 
> View attachment 119229
> 
> 
> And here's the second movement.
> 
> View attachment 119230
> 
> 
> Here are the files. I'm sure there are mistakes, let me know what you find.
> 
> movement 1
> 
> movement 2


I downloaded 'em. I'll try them in Logic and see what I get. Later on...


----------



## starthrower

I checked out the DG box from the library a couple times but wasn't motivated to buy it. I have the Sony set, and a Artis Quartett CD.


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## philoctetes

unhandyandy said:


> I'm not sure what "recessive" and "diaphanous" mean in this context - they sound almost contradictory.


Wine-tasting words... couldn't come up with anything more technical... MR seems to know what I mean, although "wet" is not a term I use much - I guess it means drownded by space... tonal contours make less impact...


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## paulbest

starthrower said:


> I checked out the DG box from the library a couple times but wasn't motivated to buy it. I have the Sony set, and a Artis Quartett CD.


Us Weberians would never skip a great recording.
Both the Sony and even moreso, the DG are must haves. 
Provided you are a Webernian. 
If not, the Sony will be fine.


----------



## philoctetes

Whew, had me wondering what the penalty for "if not" could possibly be...

Checking around, it seems I don't even have the Sony either. I'm just a Schoenberger and I'll never change...

I used to have the Sony set, but apparently an amoeba ate it.


----------



## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> Us Weberians would never skip a great recording.
> Both the Sony and even moreso, the DG are must haves.
> Provided you are a Webernian.
> If not, the Sony will be fine.


As a new (but committed, God damn it  ) Webernian, I am still working my way through the Sony set. There is so much worth exploring here that I could spend years coming to terms with the contents of these three CDs. That being said, I greatly look forward to purchasing the DG box sometime down the line (preferably, if the price drops... wishful thinking) and exploring a whole 6 discs of new interpretations... As MillionRainbows alluded to, though, this Sony set leaves little to be desired in terms of quality interpretations and recordings, though... all I could ask for is more music 

I just listened to a couple pieces from his late, transcendental period (op. 21, 22 and 27) and then a few more works from his early, Expressionistic days (op. 11 and 12). I can't decide which I prefer. His music from both eras speaks to me in a different way, the early stuff hits me hard and often instills a feeling of catharsis and grief/loss/the impact of time-as the composer once noted to his friend Alban Berg, the early works following the Passacaglia were all written in response to his mother's death, and having lost my mom at a young age and several others close to my heart, I find a lot of this music soothing, strangely enough, the 6 pieces for orchestra being the most powerful. But then the later works speak to me on a level beyond thoughts and feelings, into the realm of the truly unexplainable, weird facets of our existence. Something akin to a DMT trip, though not quite that either.

As for the middle/transitional/"Lieder period", I'm still coming to terms with a lot of this stuff. Some of it I can't make heads or tails of. Some of it I love (op.18 & 19).

Anyway, rant over. My respect, admiration, and enjoyment of his music grows and grows.


----------



## millionrainbows

The Second Viennese composers were Lieder composers, first and foremost.


----------



## paulbest

Oh yes, Webern's tiny lieder pieces are like diamonds from another world,,,they sparkle and glimmer with multi colored brilliance.

Here is Heather Harper, very good interpreter of Webern, and Charles Rosen , who is perhaps the finest pianist in Webern. 
Op3, Five Songs.






EDIT, its crazy,,, if I had the scenario *if you take just only 1 cd with you ona island,,,,,*, instead of taking big long symphonies of Mahler,,,I'd rather take this 5 minute Webern op3 with me.
Odd isn't it, I mean makes sense to grab the longest timed work, for more hours of entertainment.

Yet it is the 5 minute Webern work which will make me forget my dilemma and ,,just dream on and on with Webern's music playing ~~~~ on the rock speakers spread throughout all corners of the island


----------



## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> The Second Viennese composers were Lieder composers, first and foremost.


I've been into Schoenberg's Lieder lately, especially the Book of the Hanging Gardens, but also the early, more late-Romantic ones. Phenomenal stuff. Many of Webern's early and late Lieder really captivate me too. As Paul has said, Heather Harper (RIP) is phenomenal in these.


----------



## flamencosketches

What does it say about Webern's music that a two minute song cycle he wrote spawned an analysis video almost 20x as long as the piece itself?


----------



## paulbest

I saw, (the tech side, I did not grasp,,,,) months ago. 
You beat me to it, I was going to post this YT vid yesterday, decided to post later this week,
He has another Webern vid as well. 
He made a vid where he answered viewers Q;'s,,,I asked him 20 Q;'s,, he did not answer a 1. 

Same kinds of Q's I ask around here....


----------



## unhandyandy

millionrainbows said:


> I think "diaphonous and recessive" means airy, ambient, wet, spacious, i.e. all the things that close-miking avoids.


OK, I see. Is that perhaps a cultural thing, i.e. in Europe they prefer to convey the sense of a live performance along with its hall acoustics, whereas Americans prefer clarity?


----------



## philoctetes

unhandyandy said:


> OK, I see. Is that perhaps a cultural thing, i.e. in Europe they prefer to convey the sense of a live performance along with its hall acoustics, whereas Americans prefer clarity?


That would be some kind of mental projection on your part, more likely. But you're welcome to take a poll.


----------



## unhandyandy

millionrainbows said:


> The Second Viennese composers were Lieder composers, first and foremost.


I don't think of Schoenberg that way. He did set texts, but I don't think Pierrot Lunaire could be called "lieder". I even read somewhere of how hard he found it to break Berg of his tendency to lyricize everything.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

unhandyandy said:


> I don't think of Schoenberg that way. He did set texts, but I don't think Pierrot Lunaire could be called "lieder".


This set of Schoenberg's complete Lieder is excellent. Many of the songs are firmly in the great German tradition, IMHO worthy of comparison with Brahms and Wolf:









You won't find _Pierrot Lunaire_ here, but there is a fascinating early version of _Gurrelieder_ for voice and piano. As to "Pierrot", I agree that it's not so much in the Lieder tradition, but closer to the "cabaret songs", which are also well-performed in this set.


----------



## unhandyandy

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> This set of Schoenberg's complete Lieder is excellent. Many of the songs are firmly in the great German tradition, IMHO worthy of comparison with Brahms and Wolf:


Thanks, I'll check that out.


----------



## starthrower

I have that Capriccio set. I've been meaning to revisit it soon. That label has issued a lot of quality recordings. I have one volume of their Kurt Weill opera boxes.


----------



## paulbest

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> This set of Schoenberg's complete Lieder is excellent. Many of the songs are firmly in the great German tradition, IMHO worthy of comparison with Brahms and Wolf:
> 
> View attachment 119288
> 
> 
> You won't find _Pierrot Lunaire_ here, but there is a fascinating early version of _Gurrelieder_ for voice and piano. As to "Pierrot", I agree that it's not so much in the Lieder tradition, but closer to the "cabaret songs", which are also well-performed in this set.


Had no idea this set existed. 
Thanks
I'll look it up,,,,probably goes for $$+$,
ships from the EU


----------



## paulbest

starthrower said:


> I have that Capriccio set. I've been meaning to revisit it soon. That label has issued a lot of quality recordings. I have one volume of their Kurt Weill opera boxes.


Agree, many great recordings on this label.

I like Weill's 2 syms, 
Again, had no idea that capriccio set exists.
I'll ck it out...his Penny Opera seems too cabaretish, and sort of flim-flam.


----------



## starthrower

paulbest said:


> Agree, many great recordings on this label.
> 
> I like Weill's 2 syms,
> Again, had no idea that capriccio set exists.
> I'll ck it out...his Penny Opera seems too cabaretish, and sort of flim-flam.


I have the other Weill box that includes the opera with the famous whiskey bar song.


----------



## philoctetes

Pirate Jenny - Nina Simone


----------



## paulbest

starthrower said:


> I have the other Weill box that includes the opera with the famous whiskey bar song.


I am not into Weill's operas, 
But I love his 2 syms, especially the 1st. Not many can say they *love* Weill;s 1st sym,,,I feel special when I say that. 
Like my little secret,,,most folks have not even heard it before. 
I have like 3 or 4 recordings.


----------



## unhandyandy

The Capriccio song set is $9.49 on Google Play Music.

https://play.google.com/music/m/Bja...fi?t=Schonberg_Complete_Songs_-_Konrad_Jarnot


----------



## starthrower

paulbest said:


> I am not into Weill's operas,
> But I love his 2 syms, especially the 1st. Not many can say they *love* Weill;s 1st sym,,,I feel special when I say that.
> Like my little secret,,,most folks have not even heard it before.
> I have like 3 or 4 recordings.


Haven't listened to his symphonies but I like his violin concerto.


----------



## philoctetes

That 4cd Audite set I posted of 2nd Viennese oldies is back in stock at Berkshire for $16


----------



## starthrower

philoctetes said:


> That 4cd Audite set I posted of 2nd Viennese oldies is back in stock at Berkshire for $16


30 dollars on sale at Presto. Not much of a sale.


----------



## starthrower

paulbest said:


> But I love his 2 syms, especially the 1st. Not many can say they *love* Weill;s 1st sym,,,I feel special when I say that.
> Like my little secret,,,most folks have not even heard it before.
> I have like 3 or 4 recordings.


I'm trying out no.1. I didn't like De Waart, so now listening to Alsop on Naxos. Sounds pretty traditional. But much better conducting by Alsop. Will listen to no. 2 as well. De Waart sounded like a wind machine with the switch on high.


----------



## philoctetes

That 2CD set of Weill by Atherton and London Sinfonietta is not bad..


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## paulbest

starthrower said:


> I'm trying out no.1. I didn't like De Waart, so now listening to Alsop on Naxos. Sounds pretty traditional. But much better conducting by Alsop. Will listen to no. 2 as well. De Waart sounded like a wind machine with the switch on high.


No 2 has more notoriety,,,saying that means, its a tiny bit more known,,,as I say, most have no idea Weill even has any sym to his credit...
Sym 1 is definitely a *acquired taste*...There are textures which just GET to me, everytime,,,not sure what it is,,,as I say its my little secret goto sym.

His 2nd I also like ,,,The DeWaart is fine,,,not sure, maybe you just don't GET the sym. Alsop is also very good. Spaeking of sym 1. 
I have 2 others which I might prefer over these 2 mentioned. One is EMI the other a german off label.

I'm not making any recommends here, I wouldn't want you to go rush out , buy the cd and go *huh???...* , As I say, sym 1, even 2 , are acquired taste, . You will not see many fans on either sym, its just one of my peculiarities,,,which is a great topic to discuss.

*Little known works, which grab you,and hardly anyone else,,,confession time...*

Yeah that would make for a great new topic,. 
Look for it tonight


----------



## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> No 2 has more notoriety,,,saying that means, its a tiny bit more known,,,as I say, most have no idea Weill even has any sym to his credit...
> Sym 1 is definitely a *acquired taste*...There are textures which just GET to me, everytime,,,not sure what it is,,,as I say its my little secret goto sym.
> 
> His 2nd I also like ,,,The DeWaart is fine,,,not sure, maybe you just don't GET the sym. Alsop is also very good. Spaeking of sym 1.
> I have 2 others which I might prefer over these 2 mentioned. One is EMI the other a german off label.
> 
> I'm not making any recommends here, I wouldn't want you to go rush out , buy the cd and go *huh???...* , As I say, sym 1, even 2 , are acquired taste, . You will not see many fans on either sym, its just one of my peculiarities,,,which is a great topic to discuss.
> 
> *Little known works, which grab you,and hardly anyone else,,,confession time...*
> 
> Yeah that would make for a great new topic,.
> Look for it tonight


Wow, I didn't know that Webern wrote more than one symphony...


----------



## flamencosketches

Yes, they have gone off the rails a bit talking about Kurt Weill... Sadly, Webern only wrote one symphony. A great symphony it surely is, though.


----------



## starthrower

I wish there was more instrumental music. I'm not often in the mood for 12 tone lieder.


----------



## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I wish there was more instrumental music. I'm not often in the mood for 12 tone lieder.


Webern's many and varied lieder grew on me a lot. But there is some of it that is still a little too out there for my ears.


----------



## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Webern's many and varied lieder grew on me a lot. But there is some of it that is still a little too out there for my ears.


I would prefer it to be all on one disc. This way I can listen to it when I desire, and the instrumental material kept together. But I'm more a fan of Schoenberg's orchestral works with vocals than the austere 12 tone lieder. And I love Berg's romantic Seven Early Songs.


----------



## unhandyandy

Anyone know if the texts of Hildegard Jone that Webern set are online anywhere? Unfortunately they may still be under copyright in some countries, so they're not on lieder.net.


----------



## Flutter

flamencosketches said:


> Webern's many and varied lieder grew on me a lot. But there is some of it that is still a little too out there for my ears.


Yeah, his instrumental works grew on me immensely personally before I was able to really 'get into' his vocal works but it's been a long time since I've fell in love with them all. (all 31op's!)


----------



## unhandyandy

starthrower said:


> I wish there was more instrumental music. I'm not often in the mood for 12 tone lieder.


I agree. And Webern was such a great orchestrator that it always seems a crime for him to use the piano instead.


----------



## flamencosketches

Been enjoying Sinopoli's Webern for a couple days. Got this CD for dirt cheap brand new:









It's on Teldec's budget brand "Apex". There is hardly anything in the way of liner notes, and the jewel case was broken before I even removed the shrink wrap. But otherwise no complaints. Great sound, great music. I'm not 100% won over by Sinopoli's unconventional approach. He really seems to highlight the beauty in the music, which works better with the early works Im Sommerwind and the Passacaglia, but once we start getting into the expressionistic and later the 12-tone works (the album is in chronological order, which is great) the results start getting a little funky. Sometimes it works, though, and well worth a listen for the unconventional take on these phenomenal works. So far I rate Sinopoli 3rd behind Boulez and Karajan in the pantheon of great Webern conductors.


----------



## paulbest

Yep, no doubt about, You have fine critical ears. 
It is indeed 3rd, ,,,well actually 4th. Boulez DG 1st,,,maybe Karajan 2nd (I have that cd arriving soon, my 1st ever intentional purchase of anything from Karajan in my life,,,,,,) and Boulez /Sony 3rd. Sinopoli/Dresden FOURTH PLACE


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## flamencosketches

I do have yet to hear most of the Boulez DG set, but trust that it's on my list. I have no doubt I'd agree with your assessment of its superiority over at least Sinopoli–Boulez was born for this music, and maybe Sinopoli was too, but there's a reason I learned the name Pierre Boulez in my high school music class (and not Sinopoli's)–but in any case Boulez's own Sony set quite a big standard to overcome. 

In the end, I do still appreciate the Sinopoli, though, especially for $8 brand new. If nothing else it's a palate cleanser and proof that there is more than one way to play Webern without sacrificing any of the beauty of his music. (This you may disagree with, Paul). But the Dresden Staatskapelle sounds great. It's awesome hearing the oldest orchestra in the world play Webern.

Enjoy the Karajan, did you get the one with the red cover, DG 20th Century Classics? That's the one I have. I love the artwork, simple as it may be. I really do think you'll enjoy it, even as averse as you may be to Karajan's conducting as a whole. For some reason, he really had a way with the Second Viennese composers.

Are there any other great Webern conductors of note? Anyone familiar with the Dohnanyi Webern disc? What about Robert Craft?


----------



## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Are there any other great Webern conductors of note? Anyone familiar with the Dohnanyi Webern disc? What about Robert Craft?


As I've said before, I like the Webern LP box set by Craft, even in vinyl mono. But this was the only complete works available during the LP years, and no doubt the one Zappa listened to.


----------



## flamencosketches

Right, and I believe you mentioned that it hasn't been reissued on CD? I see there is a Naxos series of Craft conducting the complete Webern, but it appears to be a different recording (in stereo, etc). Regardless if it is new or not, I would be curious to hear it, as as the classic set. Pretty amazing that he ever got a record deal to put that together back in the '50s. I imagine it was an extremely influential recording.


----------



## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> I do have yet to hear most of the Boulez DG set, but trust that it's on my list. I have no doubt I'd agree with your assessment of its superiority over at least Sinopoli-Boulez was born for this music, and maybe Sinopoli was too, but there's a reason I learned the name Pierre Boulez in my high school music class (and not Sinopoli's)-but in any case Boulez's own Sony set quite a big standard to overcome.
> 
> In the end, I do still appreciate the Sinopoli, though, especially for $8 brand new. If nothing else it's a palate cleanser and proof that there is more than one way to play Webern without sacrificing any of the beauty of his music. (This you may disagree with, Paul). But the Dresden Staatskapelle sounds great. It's awesome hearing the oldest orchestra in the world play Webern.
> 
> Enjoy the Karajan, did you get the one with the red cover, DG 20th Century Classics? That's the one I have. I love the artwork, simple as it may be. I really do think you'll enjoy it, even as averse as you may be to Karajan's conducting as a whole. For some reason, he really had a way with the Second Viennese composers.
> 
> Are there any other great Webern conductors of note? Anyone familiar with the Dohnanyi Webern disc? What about Robert Craft?


 There are probably many releases/re-issues of the Karajan Webern over the years,,,can't recall which I got. Yes apparently Karajan had a Berlin force which was in que with Webern.

I had/still have? The Dohnanyi...Decca,,,its OK,,not recommended.

Craft has older records,,and newer ones,,,I guess you are a becomminga ~~completist ~~ in Webern,,,Hold what you have,,,Karajan, both Boulez,,,you have Sinopoli you say,,,,thats 4,,,Le cream de la cream


----------



## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Right, and I believe you mentioned that it hasn't been reissued on CD? I see there is a Naxos series of Craft conducting the complete Webern, but it appears to be a different recording (in stereo, etc). Regardless if it is new or not, I would be curious to hear it, as as the classic set. Pretty amazing that he ever got a record deal to put that together back in the '50s. I imagine it was an extremely influential recording.


The Naxos are reissues of the Koch series. I like the Koch artwork better...There is a Naxos box of all of these for Schoenberg, but I am unaware of any Webern set on Naxos.


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## flamencosketches

Yeah, I don't know anything about it. I just saw this image:









Looks like a multi-volume edition of sorts.


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## millionrainbows

Wow, that's exciting!

Later edit: I traced the .jpeg number.,and it led me to a chandos site where this is available as a download. It is the mono Columbia set. Better than nothing, I guess.

Also, I was unaware of the Naxos recordings Craft has done. They sound good, from the samples. Those are next on my list.


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## flamencosketches

This is such an awesome work...


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> This is such an awesome work...


Isn't it beautiful, also, in that it establishes the "developing motive" connection between Bach and Webern's later radical works. And as well, it establishes a spiritual connection. Essa-Pekka has done a nice job here. He's one of the true champions of modern music.

The urban imagery in the video is appropriate, somehow.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Listening to Webern always gives me a feeling of a vitalizing cold bath, not one note too much, no repetitions, short and ultimately refreshing. 

As to the Karajan second Viennese school recordings, I have a 2014 three disc collection with all the music from the 4 LP's. Very interesting account. Karajan sure made the second Viennese school salonfähig, the records sold in huge numbers. As opposed to Boulez, Karajan almost sounds like a HIP recording, as the music sounds as a logical successor of the tonal music of the turn of the century. In an interview, I read that he took 65 hours of practice with the BPO to get them to understand the repertoire as he wanted it. However, I would never want to have it as the only recording. Boulez and Karajan together seem to be a perfect combination


----------



## Manxfeeder

NLAdriaan said:


> In an interview, I read that he took 65 hours of practice with the BPO to get them to understand the repertoire as he wanted it.


65 hours? I don't think something like that will ever happen again for Webern. I'm sure many conductors hear this and reflect the words of German paratrooper General Kurt Student about the allied paratroopers' descend on Arnhem: "Oh! How I wish I had such a powerful force at my disposal."


----------



## unhandyandy

I may as well out myself now as someone who is not a true Webernian: I prefer to listen to this composition performed on a keyboard. Despite its technical brilliance, Webern's orchestration obscures the real artistic core of the ricecar, which is counterpoint and harmony.

Less importantly, it seems like a monumental act of perversity to arrange for orchestra a work that Bach must have sweated bullets over to make playable on a clavier; his son W.F. forever after bragged of Sebastian's feat of writing a six part fugue for two hands. It's a little like Tom Stoppard translating Shakespeare into modern prose: it would surely be impressive, but what's the point?


----------



## flamencosketches

unhandyandy said:


> I may as well out myself now as someone who is not a true Webernian: I prefer to listen to this composition performed on a keyboard. Despite its technical brilliance, Webern's orchestration obscures the real artistic core of the ricecar, which is counterpoint and harmony.
> 
> Less importantly, it seems like a monumental act of perversity to arrange for orchestra a work that Bach must have sweated bullets over to make playable on a clavier; his son W.F. forever after bragged of Sebastian's feat of writing a six part fugue for two hands. It's a little like Tom Stoppard translating Shakespeare into modern prose: it would surely be impressive, but what's the point?


We can agree to disagree, but I think Webern's orchestration elucidates the counterpoint a lot more than it obscures anything. In any case, it's a completely different piece from Bach's work; it's pure Webern. It adds nothing and takes nothing away from Bach's original, incredible feat but instead gains a life of its own. I don't know how you feel about popular music (particularly, electronic and hip-hop), but might it be safe to assume that you're not a fan of the traditions of sampling, remixing etc....?

In any case, it's beautiful getting the opportunity to see one master's interpretation of another's music.


----------



## unhandyandy

flamencosketches said:


> We can agree to disagree,


Agreed!



flamencosketches said:


> but I think Webern's orchestration elucidates the counterpoint a lot more than it obscures anything. In any case, it's a completely different piece from Bach's work;


Interesting point. Maybe what I was picking up was actually Bach obscuring Webern.

You know the trope of an actor who's so good he can make you laugh or cry just reading the phone book. I think Webern was like that: he was so good an orchestrator that he could take any sequence of notes and make it sound enthralling. Here's another heresy: maybe what made the 12-tone system a good match for him was that it made the note sequence so boring as to offer no distraction to his instrumental thought.



flamencosketches said:


> it's pure Webern. It adds nothing and takes nothing away from Bach's original, incredible feat but instead gains a life of its own. I don't know how you feel about popular music (particularly, electronic and hip-hop), but might it be safe to assume that you're not a fan of the traditions of sampling, remixing etc....?


I'm a little too old for it, but I did listen to last year's grammy winning hip-hop album and also some Kanye West, and I was impressed. But that's remixing at the level of phrases, not of the entire piece.



flamencosketches said:


> In any case, it's beautiful getting the opportunity to see one master's interpretation of another's music.


Yes, it's certainly fascinating.


----------



## flamencosketches

Interesting take on the effectiveness of 12-tone and Webern's orchestration. Certainly a strong case to be made for that with the Symphony, which doesn't have lengthy melodic phrases at all, and is a work of pure orchestration and counterpoint.

I agree that sampling in hip-hop music is far different than transcribing an entire piece. But I think there are two major attitudes on this technique in music (interpolation of distinct sources of others' music) where people either support it or totally rail against it, citing plagiarism. That's the only reason I asked. Last year's Grammy winner was Kendrick Lamar's Damn, indeed a damn good album. I'm glad you found it meaningful, even if not quite enjoying it, as a lot of people here seem to have a categorical bias against hip-hop music. :cheers: Great having you around the boards, there are not quite enough of us Webernians here, new or otherwise.


----------



## Mandryka

One idea that was central to Webern’s orchestral style is Klangfarbenmelodie. Has any other composer made significant use of it? I can only think of one thing, a piece by Sofia Gubaidulina (I forget the name! ) Are there really no others?


----------



## joen_cph

Concerning Gubaidulina, probably Offertorium
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Offertorium_(Gubaidulina)

Also Kurtag, it seems.


----------



## SuperTonic

Mandryka said:


> One idea that was central to Webern's orchestral style is Klangfarbenmelodie. Has any other composer made significant use of it? I can only think of one thing, a piece by Sofia Gubaidulina (I forget the name! ) Are there really no others?


I believe it was actually Webern's teacher Schoenberg who originated the concept. He used it most notably in the 3rd of the Five Pieces for Orchestra, op. 16, titled "Farben".


----------



## flamencosketches

Schoenberg may have originated the term but Webern certainly mastered its practice. Outside of the phenomenal, quasi-impressionistic Farben, I can't think of a meaningful example of Klangfarbenmelodie in Schoenberg's music. Webern's late orchestral music, and even some of his chamber music, is nothing but that.


----------



## flamencosketches

joen_cph said:


> Concerning Gubaidulina, probably Offertorium
> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Offertorium_(Gubaidulina)
> 
> Also Kurtag, it seems.


Are you very familiar with Kurtag? I'd love to hear some of his music, having heard it described as very influenced by Webern.


----------



## joen_cph

flamencosketches said:


> Are you very familiar with Kurtag? I'd love to hear some of his music, having heard it described as very influenced by Webern.


I have some of his works, including the bigger, more traditional _Grabstein_ and _Stele _for orchestra, which however suffers from too big contrasts in the sound level in the Abbado recordings, IMHO. Also a _Movement for Viola and Orchestra_ and some chamber music with piano. In general, I haven't been that captured by his extremely aphoristic style, so I haven't listened much to it. You'll notice that I've concentrated on those bigger works bearing a certain connection to a more conservative, or even Romantic, tradition. Also, there's a frustrating tendency to record only excerpts of his cycles (_Jatekok_ etc.), making it more difficult to get an overview, or do longer listenings.

But hearing samples from CDs with his _string quartet works_, I've decided to get those as well within not very long. They seem atttractive, characterful, and representative.


----------



## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> Concerning Gubaidulina, probably Offertorium
> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Offertorium_(Gubaidulina)
> 
> Also Kurtag, it seems.


Of course!

Kjcsn ccnejn


----------



## flamencosketches

9 pages of discussion since I revived the thread back in April. It's a Webern renaissance. :cheers:



Mandryka said:


> Of course!
> 
> Kjcsn ccnejn


Why must you always speak in code? 

Been greatly enjoying Idil Biret's Webern variations:






Recommended to me by you, Mandryka, a few months ago. Finally got around to getting the CD. Excellent performance.

In case anyone has not seen it, here is another classic performance:






A very unusual work, even in Webern's catalogue...


----------



## Mandryka

Yes Biret is particularly at ease in C20 atonal music, I like her Boulez 3rd sonata too. I vaguely recall a good performance of the op 27 Variations by Sviatoslav Richter, maybe bad sound.


----------



## flamencosketches

I haven't heard Boulez's 3rd sonata or the 1st for that matter. She owns the 2nd with this recording though. I can't possibly imagine a better performance. I'll have to check out some time the Naxos disc with later recordings of all 3.


----------



## flamencosketches

This may be an odd question, but does anyone know of some place on the internet where I can read letters written between Anton Webern and either Alban Berg or Arnold Schoenberg? I know there are hundreds in circulation. An English translation would be awesome, but beggars can't be choosers, and I'm sure I can use my rudimentary German alongside Google translate to make it work


----------



## flamencosketches

I have been fixated on these works lately:











The first is a kind of minaret of extreme heavenly symmetry, kind of like the Symphony, but on a smaller scale. It may have something in common with Alban Berg's Kammerkonzert for similar orchestral forces. The latter, the orchestral Variations, has something dark and mysterious to it, but it is also maybe one of his more accessible later works, feeling somehow in the vein of some of his earlier expressionistic works.

Two major works I still have yet to explore deeply are the two Kantaten. I also have yet to explore the Lieder with much depth. I have been really hung up on this Sinopoli/Dresden disc and usually will bust it out when I need my Webern fix, but I need to get back to the Boulez Sony Webern edition as there is still so much music I need to explore.

One final attachment:






Beautiful... I love Webern's earlier/mid works...


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## unhandyandy

I don't know how you feel about self-promotion, but here's my Homage to Webern:


__
https://soundcloud.com/andrew-dabrowski%2Fsets


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## Mandryka

unhandyandy said:


> I don't know how you feel about self-promotion, but here's my Homage to Webern:
> 
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/andrew-dabrowski%2Fsets


Rohrschach Blots
This playlist has no tracks


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## unhandyandy

Oops...also, I misspelled "Rorschach". Try this:


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https://soundcloud.com/andrew-dabrowski%2Fsets


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## flamencosketches

^Pretty cool. Did you compose this using serial techniques, etc? The long, flowing nature of these melodies reminds me more of pre-serial Webern, or even Berg.


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## unhandyandy

flamencosketches said:


> ^Pretty cool. Did you compose this using serial techniques, etc? The long, flowing nature of these melodies reminds me more of pre-serial Webern, or even Berg.


Yes, I started out with double canons, but I didn't attempt to be as strict as Webern was, so the rhythm is loose. Writing this I noticed that it's not really that hard to reconcile serialism with late romantic harmonies, which might explain your second comment.


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## unhandyandy

Also Webern's constant, enormous melodic jumps aren't really my style, so my horizontal lines are more conventional.


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## millionrainbows

unhandyandy said:


> Also Webern's constant, enormous melodic jumps aren't really my style, so my horizontal lines are more conventional.


I don't view Webern's pitches as "melodic leaps" or as "horizontal lines." I view them as using pitch-space, and as "isolated" single-pitch events in most cases. This seems to be the main disconnect in your perception of Webern.


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## unhandyandy

millionrainbows said:


> I don't view Webern's pitches as "melodic leaps" or as "horizontal lines." I view them as using pitch-space, and as "isolated" single-pitch events in most cases...


But if they're isolated single-pitch events, why go to all the trouble of constructing the double canons? And I've usually thought that was the kind of perception of his music he was complaining about when he said of Klemperer's performance of his symphony, "A high note, a low note, a note in the middle-like the music of a madman!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Webern


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## flamencosketches

Never thought I'd see the day that I would become a Webern completist. And yet...

... does anyone know where I can find the following CD?









Perhaps it's only available at an obscenely high price. There is a big Günter Wand box set out there that also includes these same Webern recordings, but it's on the pricey side. For some reason I can picture Wand being really good with Webern's works.

I have been largely taking a break from Webern but every time I revisit his music I'm completely immersed...


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Never thought I'd see the day that I would become a Webern completist. And yet...
> 
> ... does anyone know where I can find the following CD?
> 
> View attachment 121584
> 
> 
> Perhaps it's only available at an obscenely high price. There is a big Günter Wand box set out there that also includes these same Webern recordings, but it's on the pricey side. For some reason I can picture Wand being really good with Webern's works.
> 
> I have been largely taking a break from Webern but every time I revisit his music I'm completely immersed...


There's one on Discogs, part of a 20-CD set, for around $60 plus shipping from Germany.
https://www.discogs.com/Günter-Wand-The-Radio-Recordings/release/11245868


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## flamencosketches

^ Nice, thank you. Lots of great music here, looks like... I did not know Wand recorded the Emperor concerto with Gilels...



unhandyandy said:


> But if they're isolated single-pitch events, why go to all the trouble of constructing the double canons? And I've usually thought that was the kind of perception of his music he was complaining about when he said of Klemperer's performance of his symphony, "A high note, a low note, a note in the middle-like the music of a madman!"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Webern


Is it possible Webern had a disconnect with his own music?  In reality, I think many conductors, composers, and listeners have experienced a fundamental misunderstanding of his music. There really is a lot of lyricism to the best of his works. Most especially the early works, which is not what we're talking about here, but it's there in the later works (the Symphony perhaps being an exception, I think, which almost does sound like points isolated in time, at least for the first movement)-especially the Variations, the Cantatas, and the Concerto.

... do any recordings survive of Klemperer conducting Webern? That sounds fascinating.


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## unhandyandy

flamencosketches said:


> ... do any recordings survive of Klemperer conducting Webern? That sounds fascinating.


I'm guessing that Klemperer's interpretation roughly become the standard one - space music.


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## flamencosketches

unhandyandy said:


> I'm guessing that Klemperer's interpretation roughly become the standard one - space music.


In that case, do you know of any recordings that you would characterize as being more in line with Webern's stated wishes there? Have you heard the Karajan/Berlin recording of the symphony? I don't think I would call it "space music".


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## unhandyandy

I thought the one by the Nurnberg Symphony Orchestra was interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFpRCPcCHVmlMaaClmaW8ww


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## flamencosketches

Awesome. Thank you. I'm always on the hunt for new Webern recordings...


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