# Best Brahms and Schumann symphony cycles?



## Itullian

These are my favorite symphonies (along with Schuberts "great")

What are your favorite B, S cycles. I have several of each and love them.

Anxious to hear your favorites.

Also, why do you think these 9 symphonies captivate me so much. They seem to go straight to my heart with every note. I never tire of them. Why?:angel:


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## Polednice

Personally, I have always adored Bernard Haitink's Brahms Symphonies with the London Symphony Orchestra. Other cycles occasionally come close, but I've never come across another set that is as tight, well-controlled, and perfectly Brahmsian.

Of course, a special exception must always be made for Carlos Kleiber's recording of the 4th, and, though I haven't seen it appear on a CD, there is a video recording of him conducting the 2nd which is just as amazing.


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## itywltmt

I agree with Polednice that Haitink's recent cycle with the LSO is strong - and the fillers (Tragic overture, double concerto and Serenade no. 2) are very good.

I have a soft spot for the cycles by *Kertesz/Wiener Phil *(Decca on vinyl) and *Jochum/Berliner Phil *(reissued on CD). As far as the one cycle I own outright (*Karajan/Berliner*, analog re-issued on CD), it is not bad, but the others show more "unity of vision" in my humble opinion.

For more about the Kertesz cycle and links on YouTube, visit my blog from last Tuesday.

As for Schumann, I own the *Kubelik/Berliner Phil *cycle from the late 60's, which I reviewed in a blog a couple of months ago. Some people are partial to the *Bernstein/Concertgebouw *and the *Sawalisch (with Philadelphia?)* cycles, but I stand behind the Kubelik, with an honourable mention going to *Mario Bernardi and the Calgary Phil *on CBC records (early 90's), again because the filler material (Konzerstuck for horns and Introduction Scherzo and Finale) is excellent.


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## Itullian

I like Haitink too, but the Concertgebouw ones. Don't care for the sound of the LSO set. I think the C set runs deeper and has that classic Philips sound.


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## annie

my regular brahms playlist, in no particular order, is:
1, bernstein/nypo, karajan/bpo, klemperer/po
2, bernstein/nypo, haitink/lso, jansons/rco, karajan/bpo
3, bernstein/nypo, abbado/bpo, karajan/bpo
4, kleiber/vpo, karajan/bpo

i don't listen schumann's symphonies so only 4th is on my playlist, sawallisch/ds, gardiner/orr & bernstein/vpo
for "the great", i keep 6 of the many i own on the playlist, abbado/coe, bernstein/nypo, bernstein/rco, bohm/bpo, rattle/bpo, wand/bpo. i now realized that i've too many on the list so i'll reduce it to abbado, bernstein/rco and wand as soon as i finish this sentence.


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## joen_cph

*Schumann*: Sawallisch/Dresden Orchestra on EMI. Try the 4th for a sample. 
Other interesting 4ths, albeit in mono, are Paray and Furtwängler.


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## itywltmt

Itullian said:


> Also, why do you think these 9 symphonies captivate me so much. They seem to go straight to my heart with every note. I never tire of them. Why?:angel:


I think there's a lot in common between Brahms and Schumann - maybe that has something to do with it. I would argue that the Schubert Great C Major is a seminal work, the perfoect bookend to the "classical" era, and an eloquent transition from the Mozart/Haydn tradition of the Symphony to the Roomantic, expansive approach of Brahms. How it fits with the Brahms and Schumann set is a mystery to me, but you can't argue personal taste, and you can't argue that the works are (in general) strong.

Some people [what do you mean... _many_ people], will disagree with me on this point, but both sets are _flawed as a set_, in the sense that the symphonies aren't very consistent, or show much progression. Brahms' first (as I said in my blog) feels like somebody passing a kidney stone, and is a reflection of the labour and pain associated with its long gestation. Not to say it's not a very good or even great work, but you go from this work to the Second - what a contrast! And then the third and fourth have their definite moments, but don't have a great sense of innovation to them.

The Schumann set is flawed for other reasons - some will say Schumann wasn't a great orchestrator. I would say that Schimann is a romantic in the true sense of the word, and his best works (piano music, for example) set a "mood". He succeeds in the Spring Symphony and in the Rheinish, but I don't get that same feeling in the "even numbered" symphonies.


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## Itullian

itywltmt said:


> I agree with Polednice that Haitink's recent cycle with the LSO is strong - and the fillers (Tragic overture, double concerto and Serenade no. 2) are very good.
> 
> I have a soft spot for the cycles by *Kertesz/Wiener Phil *(Decca on vinyl) and *Jochum/Berliner Phil *(reissued on CD). As far as the one cycle I own outright (*Karajan/Berliner*, analog re-issued on CD), it is not bad, but the others show more "unity of vision" in my humble opinion.
> 
> For more about the Kertesz cycle and links on YouTube, visit my blog from last Tuesday.
> 
> As for Schumann, I own the *Kubelik/Berliner Phil *cycle from the late 60's, which I reviewed in a blog a couple of months ago. Some people are partial to the *Bernstein/Concertgebouw *and the *Sawalisch (with Philadelphia?)* cycles, but I stand behind the Kubelik, with an honourable mention going to *Mario Bernardi and the Calgary Phil *on CBC records (early 90's), again because the filler material (Konzerstuck for horns and Introduction Scherzo and Finale) is excellent.


Don't care for Kertesz or Jochum in the Brahms. Kind of off kilter to me.
My fav is a set I picked up by Barbirolli,then Klemperer, Karajan, Bernstein, Celebidache

Schumann I love Klemperer, Kubelik (Sony), Bernstein, Haitink, Celebidache and Dohnanyi's Decca cyvle is so beautifully recorded I have to listen to it.


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## itywltmt

annie said:


> my regular brahms playlist, in no particular order, is:
> 1, bernstein/nypo, karajan/bpo, klemperer/po
> 2, bernstein/nypo, haitink/lso, jansons/rco, karajan/bpo
> 3, bernstein/nypo, abbado/bpo, karajan/bpo
> 4, kleiber/vpo, karajan/bpo
> 
> i don't listen schumann's symphonies so only 4th is on my playlist, sawallisch/ds, gardiner/orr & bernstein/vpo
> for "the great", i keep 6 of the many i own on the playlist, abbado/coe, bernstein/nypo, bernstein/rco, bohm/bpo, rattle/bpo, wand/bpo. i now realized that i've too many on the list so i'll reduce it to abbado, bernstein/rco and wand as soon as i finish this sentence.


Bernstein's Brahms second with the VPO is on my iPod, and it is (as a stand alone interpretation) my favourite.


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## Guest

Ironically, the symphonies of these two composers are the ones I listen to least.

For Brahms, I have the complete cycle by both Klemperer and Gardiner. I actually prefer the Gardiner, but know that feeling is not universal.

For Schumann, I have the complete cycle only by Szell. It never did anything for me, and so haven't explored any further.


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## Itullian

itywltmt said:


> I think there's a lot in common between Brahms and Schumann - maybe that has something to do with it. I would argue that the Schubert Great C Major is a seminal work, the perfoect bookend to the "classical" era, and an eloquent transition from the Mozart/Haydn tradition of the Symphony to the Roomantic, expansive approach of Brahms. How it fits with the Brahms and Schumann set is a mystery to me, but you can't argue personal taste, and you can't argue that the works are (in general) strong.
> 
> Some people [what do you mean... _many_ people], will disagree with me on this point, but both sets are _flawed as a set_, in the sense that the symphonies aren't very consistent, or show much progression. Brahms' first (as I said in my blog) feels like somebody passing a kidney stone, and is a reflection of the labour and pain associated with its long gestation. Not to say it's not a very good or even great work, but you go from this work to the Second - what a contrast! And then the third and fourth have their definite moments, but don't have a great sense of innovation to them.
> 
> The Schumann set is flawed for other reasons - some will say Schumann wasn't a great orchestrator. I would say that Schimann is a romantic in the true sense of the word, and his best works (piano music, for example) set a "mood". He succeeds in the Spring Symphony and in the Rheinish, but I don't get that same feeling in the "even numbered" symphonies.


Your great, but too analytical my friend. I don't recognize flawed. 
These are great art by great geniuses that move my soul. That's what I know. But I'm an emotional Itullian, you know.


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## Itullian

annie said:


> my regular brahms playlist, in no particular order, is:
> 1, bernstein/nypo, karajan/bpo, klemperer/po
> 2, bernstein/nypo, haitink/lso, jansons/rco, karajan/bpo
> 3, bernstein/nypo, abbado/bpo, karajan/bpo
> 4, kleiber/vpo, karajan/bpo
> 
> i don't listen schumann's symphonies so only 4th is on my playlist, sawallisch/ds, gardiner/orr & bernstein/vpo
> for "the great", i keep 6 of the many i own on the playlist, abbado/coe, bernstein/nypo, bernstein/rco, bohm/bpo, rattle/bpo, wand/bpo. i now realized that i've too many on the list so i'll reduce it to abbado, bernstein/rco and wand as soon as i finish this sentence.


Annie, I love you.


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> Ironically, the symphonies of these two composers are the ones I listen to least.
> 
> For Brahms, I have the complete cycle by both Klemperer and Gardiner. I actually prefer the Gardiner, but know that feeling is not universal.
> 
> For Schumann, I have the complete cycle only by Szell. It never did anything for me, and so haven't explored any further.


I'll pray for you brother.


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## annie

Itullian said:


> Your great, but too analytical my friend. I don't recognize flawed.
> These are great art by great geniuses that move my soul. That's what I know. But I'm an emotional Itullian, you know.


i guess "flawed", in a non-analytical sense, means "how do schumann's symphonies move your soul?" or "what's the matter with your soul?" )


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## Polednice

DrMike said:


> For Brahms, I have the complete cycle by both Klemperer and Gardiner. I actually prefer the Gardiner, but know that feeling is not universal.


When you are listening to Gardiner's Brahms, you are not listening to Brahms.


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## itywltmt

Itullian said:


> Your great, but too analytical my friend. I don't recognize flawed.
> These are great art by great geniuses that move my soul. That's what I know. But I'm an emotional Itullian, you know.


I don't know that I'm great, but analytical is second nature (I am a Physicist after all..)

I just tried to answer your question... but music is one of those things that _fails _if it doesn't move your soul, or get you thinking! I don't want to sound flip here, but whatever floats your boat is good by me.


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## annie

Polednice said:


> When you are listening to Gardiner's Brahms, you are not listening to Brahms.


gardiner's 1st would be my 4th choice. i'd recommend you to give him another try.


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## Itullian

I don't like Gardiner in anything. cold cucumber


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## Polednice

annie said:


> gardiner's 1st would be my 4th choice. i'd recommend you to give him another try.


I have honestly never been more horrified by a recording in my life - I'm never listening to it again.


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## Itullian

polednice said:


> i have honestly never been more horrified by a recording in my life - i'm never listening to it again.


yeeeeesssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Itullian

Please, this is a Gardiner free zone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## itywltmt

RE: Gardiner

I hear you, but there is ONE exception for me:









That one was a smart, and at the time somewhat innovative performance, in the early days of the HIP movement.


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## Itullian

itywltmt said:


> RE: Gardiner
> 
> I hear you, but there is ONE exception for me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That one was a smart, and at the time somewhat innovative performance, in the early days of the HIP movement.


ok, and his Philips Mozart symphonies were ok. that's it!


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## Webernite

I favor the Brahms symphonies played by a smaller orchestra than was usual for the most of 20th century. That said, the Norrington set is bad and the Gardiner set is only good in parts, so you're left with Mackerras and Harnoncourt. I may have heard a couple of other period-style performances, but I can't remember who the conductors were at the moment.

The Haitink set that Polednice keeps mentioning is also pretty good. Karajan and Kleiber are excellent in some movements but not in others. I don't rate Kleiber's Second Symphony all that highly, although to be fair I've only heard it on Youtube. Here's what I'd regard as a good balance between modern performance practice and period practice:


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## Itullian

Harnoncourt aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


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## Webernite

Yes, Harnoncourt. The big problem with that set is that it's not properly miked. I don't have much of a problem with the actual performances.


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## Itullian

Webernite said:


> I favor the Brahms symphonies played by a smaller orchestra than was usual for the most of 20th century. That said, the Norrington set is bad and the Gardiner set is only good in parts, so you're left with Mackerras and Harnoncourt. I may have heard a couple of other period-style performances, but I can't remember who the conductors were at the moment.
> 
> The Haitink set that Polednice keeps mentioning is also pretty good. Karajan and Kleiber are excellent in some movements but not in others. I don't rate Kleiber's Second Symphony all that highly, although to be fair I've only heard it on Youtube. Here's what I'd regard as a good balance between modern performance practice and period practice:


not bad, thank you. excellent slow part.


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## Itullian

Webernite said:


> Yes, Harnoncourt. The big problem with that set is that it's not properly miked. I don't have much of a problem with the actual performances.


aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Webernite

Itullian said:


> not bad, thank you. excellent slow part.


 When I first heard that recording I had large outside-ear headphones on and the performance seemed really amazing. Now I'm listening to it again on small headphones and it doesn't seem that special, but still very solid. Just goes to show what a difference these things can make.



Itullian said:


> aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


The problem I have with the massive Brahms performances of Kleiber, Karajan, Celibidache, etc. is that it has a very inconsistent effect. For example, the first and last movements of the Fourth Symphony are really exciting and dramatic in their hands, but the middle movements become a bit of a blur. Again in the Third Symphony, the first movement is great, but what about the second movement? I still enjoy listening to their recordings (not Bernstein's, though), but I find the use of smaller orchestras a lot more convincing. I don't think Brahms would ever have written the third movement of the Second Symphony if he'd known how big orchestras were going to become after his death.


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## Guest

Polednice said:


> When you are listening to Gardiner's Brahms, you are not listening to Brahms.


I'll tell you that I also like his recording of the Deutsches Requiem (although I prefer Klemperer).


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## Vesteralen

I've listened to many different versions of both of these symphony sets over a period of 40 years. Oddly enough, I find that one set of Brahms symphonies where the conductor serves the music and doesn't make the music serve him is the budget-priced set by Jaap Van Zweden and the Netherlands Philharmonic on the Brilliant Complete Brahms set. The tempi and dynamics in this set are the closest thing to perfect I've heard. The live performances with Janowski and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra on Pentatone are a worthwhile expensive set (SACD).

I have never found a completely satisfactory Schumann set. After 40 years of listening I stick with:

Charles Munch / Boston SO - Sym 1 & Manfred Overture
Rafael Kubelik / Berlin SO - Sym 2 & Genoveva Overture
Rene Leibowitz - Sym 3 (available on Chesky Records) - there has never been a better Rhenish
Klemperer / New Philharmonia - Sym 4


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## Manxfeeder

Does anyone have thoughts about David Zinman's Schumann cycle? A friend of mine flipped out over it. I haven't heard it enough to say either way.


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## StlukesguildOhio

When you are listening to Gardiner's Brahms, you are not listening to Brahms.

Or you are not listening to Brahms as you have come to know him. It is quite possible, considering Gardiner's formidable reputation as both a conductor and musical scholar that he knows much more about Brahms than yourself and prefers to stress elements of aspects of Brahms that have been lost or downplayed in other interpretations.

I have honestly never been more horrified by a recording in my life

Someone obviously has an aversion to HIP recordings.:lol: Gardiner shakes up your staid conservative views of who Brahms was and what he should sound like. To be quite honest, the only reason I look to purchase more than one recording of a favorite work of music is because a performer or conductor has brought something quite different in the interpretation of a work of music. Personally, I love the Gardiner Brahms (including the German Requiem). Gardiner shakes the dust off of Brahms and brings a certain muscularity and transparency to music that I have often found interpreted in an overly lumpen and far to dense manner. I also like Kleiber's 4th, Bruno Walter's interpretations, Herbert von Karajan's, and Karl Bohm's.

As for Schumann. I think Karajan is too lush and grandiose... perhaps as he is with Schubert. Schumann calls for someone with a more poetic touch. Personally I enjoy two of the recordings with my hometown Cleveland Orchestra: that with George Szell, and the later recording with Christoph von Dohnányi. Once again, I also enjoy John Eliot Gardiner's interpretations.


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## Polednice

DrMike said:


> I'll tell you that I also like his recording of the Deutsches Requiem (although I prefer Klemperer).


Gardiner can be ever so slightly forgiven with choral music.


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## jdavid

*Kleiber's brahm's fourth*



Polednice said:


> Personally, I have always adored Bernard Haitink's Brahms Symphonies with the London Symphony Orchestra. Other cycles occasionally come close, but I've never come across another set that is as tight, well-controlled, and perfectly Brahmsian.
> 
> Of course, a special exception must always be made for Carlos Kleiber's recording of the 4th, and, though I haven't seen it appear on a CD, there is a video recording of him conducting the 2nd which is just as amazing.


 jdavid says: I couldn't agree more about Kleiber's Brahm's 4th - it is my favorite recording with one exception - the 4th movement section with the big flute solo in e minor, I think, is really more than a shade too fast. It doesn't change my mind about the recording, however. And speaking of Kleiber: his Beethoven 5th Symphony (also with Weiner Philharmoniker) is the most fantastically 'over the top' recording of it I have ever heard of it - a real fire-breather!


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## kv466

Ok,...let's see:

*Brahms* Um,...Polednice, a little help here!

*Schumann* Klavierspieler,...what's the word?!


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## itywltmt

jdavid said:


> And speaking of Kleiber: his Beethoven 5th Symphony (also with Weiner Philharmoniker) is the most fantastically 'over the top' recording of it I have ever heard of it - a real fire-breather!


We digress here, but his dad's recording of the 5th is just as memorable.


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## jdavid

I own two complete symphonic essays (Beethoven and Schumann) by Gardiner and his band (orchestra revolutionaire et romantique) but I'm certainly not throwing out my various Weiner Phil, Berlin Phil, Chicago, Concertgebouw, et al recordings of those great symphonies. However, I think Gardiner's musicality is very fine and his orchestra's colors, esp among the winds are so vivid. I'm glad for his 'stuff' - so many of the leading orchestras have the very same personality, and I think he finds 'new ground'. And speaking of orchestras, I think the New York Phil is beginning to play with more verve under Alan Gilbert - maybe the days of the jet-setting conductors are on the wane. Gardiner's art is fairly literal and not precious, I think...but just today I listened to Von Karajan w Wein in a great recording of the Schumann 4th (revised Op.120) and the Dvorak 8th in G - wow! Double wow! What a great recording and pairing of works. It makes me very glad for the modern orchestra, indeed!


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## jdavid

Yes, I've heard much of his father's (Erich?) work, but so far own none of his recordings. Sorry to digress.


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## Itullian

Manxfeeder said:


> Does anyone have thoughts about David Zinman's Schumann cycle? A friend of mine flipped out over it. I haven't heard it enough to say either way.


it's a fine cycle. kind of a combo of old and new. excellent sound.


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## Polednice

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Or you are not listening to Brahms as you have come to know him. It is quite possible, considering Gardiner's formidable reputation as both a conductor and musical scholar that he knows much more about Brahms than yourself and prefers to stress elements of aspects of Brahms that have been lost or downplayed in other interpretations.


Nope, I'm right.

For reference, I have no aversion to HIP recordings, Gardiner is just a giant piece of **** when it comes to Brahms. I should know, Brahms is my lover.


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## itywltmt

Polednice said:


> I should know, Brahms is my lover.


Now that`s creepy, but explains a lot...


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## Air

Sorry, Itullian, but I absolutely love Gardiner and Harnoncourt. They are my go-to conductors for basically anything both orchestral and Schumann. It was actually Gardiner's Schumann cycle with period instruments that first did it for me, not Bernstein, Szell or the like. Not to mention my encounter with _Das Paradies und die Peri_, in which Harnoncourt and Gardiner both give the composer's neglected choral music the credit its due. Harnoncourt's concerti with Argerich and Kremer aren't too shabby either - two of the best _modern_ recordings of the piano and violin concertos, though there are a few historical recordings that trump these.


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## Itullian

to each their own.:tiphat:


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## Itullian

Polednice said:


> Nope, I'm right.
> 
> For reference, I have no aversion to HIP recordings, Gardiner is just a giant piece of **** when it comes to Brahms. I should know, Brahms is my lover.


Get rid of that pig. It's weird. ut:


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## Manxfeeder

jdavid said:


> I couldn't agree more about Kleiber's Brahm's 4th - it is my favorite recording with one exception - the 4th movement section with the big flute solo in e minor, I think, is really more than a shade too fast.




Thanks for bringing up Kleiber. I like that one also, and I thought I was the only one.


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## Vaneyes

Schumann - VPO/Bernstein (DG, 1984/85)

Brahms - BPO/Karajan (DG, 1964)


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## Polednice

vaneyes said:


> schumann - vpo/bernstein (dg, 1984/85)
> 
> brahms - bpo/karajan (dg, 1964)


WRONG! 

******* character limit


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## Guest

Manxfeeder, couldn't disagree more about the Kleiber Brahms 4!! It's a magnificent recording by any standards, except that the recording quality (early digital) isn't too flash - it hits that ceiling of over-modulation!! No matter how good my sound equipment it always flattens out and has no depth. I guess this is the legacy of early digital or ADD. But this performance has never been equalled, IMHO. And I hear the Vienna Philharmonic reasonably regularly at the Musikverein - they have never sounded so wonderful with Brahms as they did in that recording. So, the CONDUCTOR DOES MATTER!! (What a buzz to catch the train home with some members of the orchestra after these performances!! They get off at my station, too!!)


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## Vaneyes

Kleiber Brahms 4 is too dainty for me (Note to Polednice: CK's B4 available on DG Originals for ages), as are interps of Abbado, Klemperer, and others. I like bold, and that's what HvK '64 does well.

Haitink's Brahms, and just about anything else of his in the Germanic mainstream is okay, but not benchmark. Haitink's claim for fame is live Bruckner, live Mahler, and Shostakovich. A very good career notwithstanding.

One Gardiner rec here--Berlioz "Harold".


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## Polednice

Vaneyes said:


> Note to Poledice: CK's B4 available on DG Originals for ages


I know; it's the 2nd I can't find on disc.


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## chrislowski

Are my favourites, closely followed by Sawallisch's Schumann and Klemperer's Brahms.


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## Itullian

Toscanini's Testament cycle is great Brahms.


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## Kansenji

I have and have had, numerous sets and individual recordings of the Brahms Symphonies.

I have a Toscanini/RCA set (1949-1953) that is certainly worthy of anyone's money. Anything conducted by Eugen Jochum is worth grabbing too; in my opinion he is one of the top Brahms interpreters ever. However, all are beaten, hands down, in a recently remastered box-set (£9.00 on Amazon) by *Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt and the North German Radio Symphony Orchestra* (NDRSO) from Brahms' home town of Hamburg. "Brahms From Hamburg" is found on the "Fab Four" label (Order No. 233023-PC: 359). The _symphonies_ were recorded 1967-1973, so the sound quality is good.


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## terpsichandre

Itullian said:


> I don't like Gardiner in anything. cold cucumber


 nice definition. but in recently recorded Bach's Johannes-Passion Gardiner has chosen dramatically-hysterical rendition with Padmore seeming to be insane while singing the Evangelist part (recitative 'Und siehe da, der Vorhang im Tempel zerreißt' and the following tenor aria). great failure.

BTW, my favourite Schumann was with Kurt Masur and Gewandhausorchester on mid-70-ies ETERNA vinyl.
Masur has dared to conduct Schumann using the original scores, not Mahler or Szell editions, and, thanks to Gewandhaus, got worthy result.


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## kv466

Hmmm, let's see...the ones that weren't recorded? Ohhhhhhhhh!

Oh, what,...this isn't the joke thread?...oh, uh...sorry.

No, seriously, I love both composers and were merely trying to get under the Kat and Pig's skin!


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## Itullian

Brahms and Schumann. It gets no better.


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## billeames

I am a recent convert to Jochum EMI cycle. Here are my favorite Brahms: Klemperer PO (power), Kurt Sanderling RCA (tasteful), Jochum EMI and DG (power, taste, some liberties with tempi but tasteful), Walter NYPO (best but sound not good), Furtwangler Music Arts (sound is also not good), Levine RCA, Karajan 1963 DG, Kertesz VPO, Levine VPO. I may buy Sawallisch LSO on EMI, and Kempe Munich. 

Even though the Giulini PO, Bohm VPO, Bernstein VPO are still not as good as the above, it still is very good in my opinion. Same for Haitink, other Karajan ones, although no 2 from 1986 is great. Karajan 1978 I dont like as much. 

Giulini VPO, Chelibidache EMIpowerful but too slow.

Bill


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## billeames

Sorry, I forgot earlier, Schumann Sawallisch EMI Japan Hi Quality CD's or Domestic USA, and UK EMI set, Beermann cpo. Kubelik with lesser sound on DG originals. I love 4 with Furtwangler DG.


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## bigshot

I have to admit that both of these are tough sloghing for me. But I enjoy them if they are given a lighter Viennese flair. If they are ponderous or presented as straight classical music, I go straight to sleep.


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## Xaltotun

For Schumann I have the Zinman set, and I'm quite satisfied with it, although I haven't heard many recordings to compare it with. For Brahms, I think I haven't yet heard performances that I would be really satisfied with.


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## nightscape

I have the Rattle and Abbado sets, both with Berlin.


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## realdealblues

I can't pick one favorite for these two.

Brahms - My Top 10...err 13, in no particular order.

Kempe/Munich
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Wand/NDR
Bernstein/New York
Sanderling/Dresden
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Szell/Cleveland
Abbado/Berlin
Levine/Chicago or Vienna
Jochum/Berlin or London
Walter/Columbia


Schumann - My Top 10, again in no particular order.

Bernstein/New York
Bernstein/Vienna
Szell/Cleveland
Sawallisch/Dresden
Marriner/Academy Of St. Martin
Muti/Vienna
Mehta/Vienna
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Levine/Philadelphia
Kubelik/Bavarian Radio


----------



## billeames

I agree with realdealblues that Brahms Kempe Munich are great. I got recent CD on documents label. Sound is so-so.


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## Genzo

For Brahms Complete Symphony
- Hans Schmidt Isserstedt / Hamburg
- Furtwanger / Wiener Phil.
- Otto Klemperer /Philharmonia O.
- Adrian Boult / LPO, LSO
- Eugen Jochum / LPO
- Sergiu Celibidache / Munich
- Arturo Toscanini / Philharmonia O.


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## Vaneyes

No changes, it's still VPO/LB (DG, '84/5) for Schumann, and BPO/HvK (DG, '64) for Brahms.

Others for Brahms - BPO/HvK '70's, Walter, Suitner, Harnoncourt.

Others for Schumann - VPO/Muti, Dresden/Sawallisch, Barenboim.


----------



## Steve Wright

Opinions seem to vary on Karajan's Schumann. What's yours?

David Hurwitz: "The only conductor who led this orchestra [BPO] for a sufficiently long period of time to create a characteristic sound was *Karajan*, and his *Schumann cycle* is simply horrible in every possible and several impossible ways."

Gramophone critic: "I have written before about the special distinction of *Karajan's *recordings of the *Schumann symphonies* (which are unsurpassed in the present catalogue)..."


----------



## dieter

Steve Wright said:


> Opinions seem to vary on Karajan's Schumann. What's yours?
> 
> David Hurwitz: "The only conductor who led this orchestra [BPO] for a sufficiently long period of time to create a characteristic sound was *Karajan*, and his *Schumann cycle* is simply horrible in every possible and several impossible ways."
> 
> Gramophone critic: "I have written before about the special distinction of *Karajan's *recordings of the *Schumann symphonies* (which are unsurpassed in the present catalogue)..."


Hurwitz can be strange but I find him generally attuned to my taste. Gramophone, I hate to say, is full of establishment bias, a lot of it in favor of so-called British musicians,E.G.Sir Simon Himself.


----------



## Steve Wright

dieter said:


> Hurwitz can be strange but I find him generally attuned to my taste. Gramophone, I hate to say, is full of establishment bias, a lot of it in favor of so-called British musicians,E.G.Sir Simon Himself.


Yes, I've got some good tips off Hurwitz - Dohnanyi's Dvorak, Schumann and Brahms, Zinman's Schumann. Wondering whether to trust him on Kuchar's cheapo Nielsen cycle next. 
I did listen to Karajan's Schumann 3 last night and found it, I guess, not especially to my liking. Too much of those sighing, swooning strings HvK loves, making it sound (to me) less Schumann, more... Rachmaninov?


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## Pugg

Both Bernstein and Karajan ( not the gold edition) :tiphat:


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## dieter

Steve Wright said:


> Yes, I've got some good tips off Hurwitz - Dohnanyi's Dvorak, Schumann and Brahms, Zinman's Schumann. Wondering whether to trust him on Kuchar's cheapo Nielsen cycle next.
> I did listen to Karajan's Schumann 3 last night and found it, I guess, not especially to my liking. Too much of those sighing, swooning strings HvK loves, making it sound (to me) less Schumann, more... Rachmaninov?


More like Mantovani and his Orchestra.


----------



## dieter

Steve Wright said:


> Yes, I've got some good tips off Hurwitz - Dohnanyi's Dvorak, Schumann and Brahms, Zinman's Schumann. Wondering whether to trust him on Kuchar's cheapo Nielsen cycle next.
> I did listen to Karajan's Schumann 3 last night and found it, I guess, not especially to my liking. Too much of those sighing, swooning strings HvK loves, making it sound (to me) less Schumann, more... Rachmaninov?


The Kuchar Nielsen is very good. Not as good as the Schonwandt on Naxos, or the San Francisco Blomstedt.


----------



## Steve Wright

dieter said:


> The Kuchar Nielsen is very good. Not as good as the Schonwandt on Naxos, or the San Francisco Blomstedt.


Ah, OK. Thanks. I have that Blomstedt set, which has turned me on - hugely - to Nielsen. Was then interested in hearing a slightly different take on this fascinating, visceral music. Maybe won't get something not quite as good, though.


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## realdealblues

Steve Wright said:


> Ah, OK. Thanks. I have that Blomstedt set, which has turned me on - hugely - to Nielsen. Was then interested in hearing a slightly different take on this fascinating, visceral music. Maybe won't get something not quite as good, though.


I'll agree with with dieter on this one too. If you have Blomstedt/San Francisco than you're pretty much set. Schonwandt is fantastic as well and worth owning in my book. Kuchar is good but not above either Blomstedt or Schonwandt in my opinion. I could live with either Blomstedt or Schonwandt for complete cycles. Throw in Bernstein's recordings of 3 & 5 and you're pretty much set. Bernstein's recording of the 5th is still the most exciting I've ever heard.


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## premont

dieter said:


> The Kuchar Nielsen is very good. Not as good as the Schonwandt on Naxos, or the San Francisco Blomstedt.


Yes, Schønwandt and Blomstedt are also my favorites, but I think the earlier Blomstedt set with the Danish National Radio orchestra (EMI) is more Nielsenian than the San Francisco set. I think this is because the Danish musicians have got this music in their blood. I think the Bernstein recording of Espansiva with the Danish Royal orchestra turned out to become something special for the same reason.


----------



## AndorFoldes

Steve Wright said:


> Opinions seem to vary on Karajan's Schumann. What's yours?
> 
> David Hurwitz: "The only conductor who led this orchestra [BPO] for a sufficiently long period of time to create a characteristic sound was *Karajan*, and his *Schumann cycle* is simply horrible in every possible and several impossible ways."
> 
> Gramophone critic: "I have written before about the special distinction of *Karajan's *recordings of the *Schumann symphonies* (which are unsurpassed in the present catalogue)..."


That Schumann cycle was far from the best thing that Karajan recorded.

For simply the best in grand, heroic Schumann, there are the Levine/BPO and Bernstein/VPO cycles. There is also the stupendous studio recording of no. 4 that Furtwangler made with the BPO.


----------



## Steve Wright

Anyone have any opinions on the Neville Marriner/ASMF Schumann cycle? FWIW, David Hurwitz rates it very highly (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-5274/), as do a few Amazon reviewers. 
Otherwise, Hurwitz's choices for Schumann cycles are Bernstein (either), Szell and Sawallisch. I have the latter and would concur. I've heard some of the Szell and would, again, concur. 
I also have - and hugely enjoy - Dohnanyi, Zinman and Gardiner. 
The Schumann four are such loveable symphonies I can imagine wanting to collect many sets, avoiding only those that (apparently) fail to lift the music out of its allegedly thick/'muddy' orchestration.


----------



## AndorFoldes

We obviously share no common ground with regards to Schumann. I don't understand why the supposedly thick orchestration would matter as long as the recording itself is intoxicating.


----------



## dieter

Steve Wright said:


> Anyone have any opinions on the Neville Marriner/ASMF Schumann cycle? FWIW, David Hurwitz rates it very highly (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-5274/), as do a few Amazon reviewers.
> Otherwise, Hurwitz's choices for Schumann cycles are Bernstein (either), Szell and Sawallisch. I have the latter and would concur. I've heard some of the Szell and would, again, concur.
> I also have - and hugely enjoy - Dohnanyi, Zinman and Gardiner.
> The Schumann four are such loveable symphonies I can imagine wanting to collect many sets, avoiding only those that (apparently) fail to lift the music out of its allegedly thick/'muddy' orchestration.
> View attachment 85790


Surprisingly, I really like the Marriner: it is in a Brilliant Box of Symphonies which includes a really good Brahms set with Van Zweden.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

itywltmt said:


> I have a soft spot for the cycles by *Kertesz/Wiener Phil *(Decca on vinyl) and *Jochum/Berliner Phil *(reissued on CD).


Agree. Both among the very best Brahms cycles committed to lp and cd.


----------



## JACE

My favorite set of Schumann symphonies is conducted by James Levine and the Philadelphia Orchestra.










I've also enjoyed Rafael Kubelik's Schumann cycle with the Bavarian RSO as well as Szell's with the Clevelanders.

As for Brahms' symphonies, my favorites are Bruno Walter with the Columbia SO and Jochum with the London PO.


----------



## starthrower

Anybody listened to Herreweghe's cycle on Harmonia Mundi? Schumann that is.


----------



## Heck148

JACE said:


> My favorite set of Schumann symphonies is conducted by James Levine and the Philadelphia Orchestra.


I've only heard the #4 from that cycle, but it is very good...

My favorite Schumann set is Barenboim/Chicago/DG
Bernstein/NYPO is right up there, with superior #3 & 4. 
Szell/CO is very good also.


----------



## Pugg

I still love my Paray and Muti sets, with a lots of others just behind them.


----------



## realdealblues

starthrower said:


> Anybody listened to Herreweghe's cycle on Harmonia Mundi? Schumann that is.


Can't say that I have, but I've heard a lot of Herreweghe's recordings and his Baroque stuff has usually been good but his Beethoven and more modern/romantic composers like Bruckner, Mahler, etc. have been very poor. Obviously basing it on past listening but from what I've heard of similar style composers I would bet his Schumann would fall into that very poor category.


----------



## Vaneyes

realdealblues said:


> Can't say that I have, but I've heard a lot of *Herreweghe's *recordings and his Baroque stuff has usually been good but his Beethoven and more modern/romantic composers like Bruckner, Mahler, etc. have been very poor. Obviously basing it on past listening but from what I've heard of similar style composers I would bet his Schumann would fall into that very poor category.


I agree. I require a longer line with more weight. However, I do supplementally like his *Brahms*: German Requiem for its intimacy. :tiphat:


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

itywltmt said:


> Schumann....succeeds in the Spring Symphony and in the Rheinish, but I don't get that same feeling in the "even numbered" symphonies.


I've never been an especially big fan of Schumann. Like you however I'm generally fine with his "Spring" (my favorite of his four) and "Rhenish" Symphonies, but rather unreceptive to his Second and Fourth (especially the former). For the 1st and 3rd my preferred interpretations are Bernstein's early ones with the New York Philharmonic. I can also live with the versions of Sawallisch/Dresden Staatskapelle and Szell/Cleveland.


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## DarkAngel

*For Brahms 1950s Walter NYPO..........*
These sound absolutely nothing like the later relaxed Columbia SO recordings, they are bold, exciting, powerful accounts (also Dorati, Klemperer, Toscanini, Jochum)










*
For Schumann still have to go with Sawallisch.......*
he captures the rhythmic currents in ways others just never fully realize (also Szell, Bernstien VPO, Paray)


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## sbmonty

This is a nice recording.


----------



## hpowders

For Schumann, the first Leonard Bernstein cycle with the New York Philharmonic is indispensable.


----------



## Pugg

sbmonty said:


> This is a nice recording.


Looks very interesting.


----------



## jegreenwood

sbmonty said:


> This is a nice recording.


My introduction to the music (on Odyssey LPs). I now have the recordings on SACD. Theonly other one I own is Haitink/Concertbebouw, which I bought in the early days of CD.

For Brahms I have cycles by Toscanini (NBC Orchestra), Walter (CBS Orchestra), Szell, Klemperer, Von Karajan (1970s), Masur (Pentatone - my only SACD cycle), Mackerras and Abbado. I like all but the HvK, which I keep saying I will get rid of. I'd like to replace it with his 60's cycle. Haven't listened much to the Masur. If I had to pick two they would be the Szell and Klemperer.


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## Judith

For Schumann I have 
Academy of St Martin in the Fields conducted by Neville Marriner 
For Brahms I have
Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by Simon Rattle.

Love both these cycles


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I may have unrefined tastes. I bought the Brahms Big Box Set download off Amazon for less than $3 after listening to it on Prime for a while. The Utah Symphony does a good enough job with the symphonies for me.
I also tried out Marriners Schumann Symphonies on Prime and liked them enough to spend $4 on some used eBay CD.


----------



## Klassik

Webernite said:


> Yes, Harnoncourt. The big problem with that set is that it's not properly miked. I don't have much of a problem with the actual performances.


Interesting observation. I have the Harnoncourt Brahms symphony box from Teldec (well, mine is the newer reissue under the Warner Classics name that came out last year shortly after Harnoncourt's death). I believe these were live recordings. The audio quality, while not bad in general, feels like it could have been better. You might be on to something there about the miking. I'm generally not a fan of live recordings, but I rolled the dice on this one.

I'm generally not a fan of Harnoncourt for Romantic era music, but I think his style kind of works with Brahms. There's something about the more mellow sound that seems to fit here, but I can understand why someone would want a more traditional Romantic era sound. To that extent, I would not recommend this cycle for someone looking to make a quick decision on what to buy. There are safer picks that are sure to please a larger number of listeners. That said, the Harnoncourt cycle might well work for someone wanting their Brahms to sound a little different than normal. It's worth a sample if someone wants to compare different composers.

As for Schumann, my recordings of his symphonies are a random collection of different conductors. I can't really offer a strong recommendation there at this time.


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## Ralphus

I've struggled with Brahms sets over the years. Perhaps perversely, my current favorites are Rattle and Manze!















For Schumann, I feel like there are a wealth of great options: Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Zinman are all excellent. But I have a soft spot for Konwitschny. And also really like Sinopoli!


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## AfterHours

Two best Brahms cycles IMO are Levine: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615UBLEg2NL.jpg

and Wand: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lJfdO3xvL.jpg


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## realdealblues

AfterHours said:


> Two best Brahms cycles IMO are Levine: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615UBLEg2NL.jpg
> 
> and Wand: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lJfdO3xvL.jpg


Both two of my favorites, although I like Levine with Chicago just slightly better than Vienna.


----------



## AfterHours

realdealblues said:


> Both two of my favorites, although I like Levine with Chicago just slightly better than Vienna.
> View attachment 94249


I might agree but I don't think I've heard all 4 from his Chicago set yet. What I have heard would certainly rival the Vienna renditions.


----------



## CDs

Any thoughts on Solti's Brahms Symphony cycle? I haven't seen it mentioned much in the Brahms threads. I just bought it and am enjoying #4 right now.


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## AfterHours

CDs said:


> Any thoughts on Solti's Brahms Symphony cycle? I haven't seen it mentioned much in the Brahms threads. I just bought it and am enjoying #4 right now.
> View attachment 94354


It's an excellent cycle! Not quite the very top tier to me, though it has no weaknesses. I don't find it as transcendent as Wand/NDR or Levine's.


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## Heck148

CDs said:


> Any thoughts on Solti's Brahms Symphony cycle? I haven't seen it mentioned much in the Brahms threads. I just bought it and am enjoying #4 right now.
> View attachment 94354


Excellent, one of the best.


----------



## CDs

AfterHours said:


> It's an excellent cycle! Not quite the very top tier to me, though it has no weaknesses. I don't find it as transcendent as Wand/NDR or Levine's.


I've now listened to his 2nd and 4th. I enjoyed them both. I've also listened to Klemperer as well and currently listening to Haitink's version of the 1st. All are very well done.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

CDs said:


> Any thoughts on Solti's Brahms Symphony cycle? I haven't seen it mentioned much in the Brahms threads. I just bought it and am enjoying #4 right now.
> View attachment 94354


One of my favorite sets. The 4th is the weak link and I listen to the Kleiber instead. But I haven't found a 4th quite as good as Kleiber's yet.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Rudolf Kempe did a very good one with the Royal Philharmonic Orch.many years ago. That one comes pretty close IMO, and I'm a big Kleiber fan.


----------



## Itullian

Bernstein, Klemperer, Karajan 60s cycle.


----------



## Heck148

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet;.... I haven't found a 4th quite as good as Kleiber's yet.[/QUOTE said:


> Try Reiner/RoyPO, or Toscanini/NBC...really cosmic...


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

For Brahms: Furtwangler Music & Arts set (historical), Kempe on Testament (semi-historical), Abbado DG (modern sound)

For Schumann: Sawallisch EMI


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

CDs said:


> Any thoughts on Solti's Brahms Symphony cycle? I haven't seen it mentioned much in the Brahms threads. I just bought it and am enjoying #4 right now.
> View attachment 94354


Here's another positive vote for the Solti/Brahms set---nicely interpreted and very well played by the Chicago Symphony. An excellent choice for just about anybody, but recommended especially for those looking to acquaint themselves with the composer's symphonies for the first time.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Too hard to choose just one. I'll do my top 5. 


Top 5 Brahms (no order)

1. Colin Davis
2. Nikolaus Harnoncourt
3. Carlo Maria Guilini
4. Wilhelm Furtwangler
5. Bernard Haitink

Top 5 Schumann (No order):

1. Paul Paray
2. Sir Neville Marriner
3. Riccardo Chailly
4. Kurt Masur
5. Simon Rattle


----------



## Harroth

I can vouch for the Solti/Brahms set too. It's the one CD "box" of Brahms I have, and it's never let me down. I am at this moment listening to Karl Bohm's DG recording of the Brahms 1st and to me it sounds superior to the Solti, performance-wise. But I never thought the Solti was flawed in any way. Maybe it's a big high-strung, but I like this music done that way.


----------



## Josquin13

1. My four favorite Schumann cycles:

Wolfgang Sawallisch, Staatskapelle Dresden, EMI (& I'd like to hear Sawallisch's Philadelphia Orchestra cycle one day too)
Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, CBS/Sony
Rafael Kubelik, Berlin Philharmonic, DG
John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Revolutionaire et Romantique, DG Archiv (on period instruments)

To the above list, I'd add Wilhelm Furtwangler's recording of the 4th Symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic, on DG.

2. My 7 favorite Brahms cycles (sorry, but I've had more than 5 favorites over the decades):

Eugen Jochum, Berlin Philharmonic (DG mono)
Eugen Jochum, London Philharmonic Orchestra, EMI
Istvan Kertesz, Vienna Philharmonic, Decca (now reissued by Eloquence)
Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Columbia/Sony (& I'd like to hear Walter's earlier cycle with the NY Philharmonic one day too)
Kurt Masur, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, Philips (now reissued by Pentatone hybrid SACDs & on Eloquence a magnificent "Variations on a theme by Haydn")
Kurt Sanderling, Staatskapelle Dresden, Eurodisc
Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Philips

To the above list I'd add Pierre Monteux's Brahms 2nd (LSO) and 3rd (various), Carlos Kleiber's 4th (Vienna Philharmonic), Wilhelm Furtwangler's Berlin/ Vienna cycle on EMI References (my historical choice), and Leonard Bernstein's "Academic Festival Overture" (Vienna Philharmonic). I'd also like to hear Charles Munch's Boston S.O. recordings one day.


----------



## Judith

For Brahms, have Muti with Philadelphia Orchestra. Listening to no 4 made me realise how good Muti is. 
For Schumann, have ASMF conducted by Marriner. Lovely recordings.


----------



## Merl

Currently......

Brahms
1. Levine / CSO
2. Szell
3. Nelsons
4. Wand
5. Harnoncourt

Schumann
1.Sawallisch
2. DohnanyI
3. Zinman
4. Szell
5.Bernstein

As I have so many recordings of these I change these quite often (but some of thee rarely move out of the top 5)


----------



## DarkAngel

Josquin13 said:


> 1. My four favorite Schumann cycles:
> 
> *Wolfgang Sawallisch, Staatskapelle Dresden*, EMI (& I'd like to hear Sawallisch's Philadelphia Orchestra cycle one day too)
> Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, CBS/Sony
> Rafael Kubelik, Berlin Philharmonic, DG
> John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Revolutionaire et Romantique, DG Archiv (on period instruments)
> 
> To the above list, I'd add Wilhelm Furtwangler's recording of the 4th Symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic, on DG.
> 
> 2. My 7 favorite Brahms cycles (sorry, but I've had more than 5 favorites over the decades):
> 
> Eugen Jochum, Berlin Philharmonic (DG mono)
> Eugen Jochum, London Philharmonic Orchestra, EMI
> Istvan Kertesz, Vienna Philharmonic, Decca (now reissued by Eloquence)
> Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Columbia/Sony (& *I'd like to hear Walter's earlier cycle with the NY Philharmonic one day too*)
> Kurt Masur, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, Philips (now reissued by Pentatone hybrid SACDs & on Eloquence a magnificent "Variations on a theme by Haydn")
> *Kurt Sanderling, Staatskapelle Dresden, Eurodisc*
> Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Philips
> 
> To the above list I'd add Pierre Monteux's Brahms 2nd (LSO) and 3rd (various), Carlos Kleiber's 4th (Vienna Philharmonic), Wilhelm Furtwangler's Berlin/ Vienna cycle on EMI References (my historical choice), and Leonard Bernstein's "Academic Festival Overture" (Vienna Philharmonic). I'd also like to hear Charles Munch's Boston S.O. recordings one day.


Nice list J13, always have loved Sawallish Schumann EMI set, vibrant exciting and captures the slightly off kilter rythms with thrilling results that escapes most conductors.....

I have not really been thrilled with either Kubelik set much and would substitute Szell/RCA and Bernstein/DG with WP (and Paray for a kicker)......also Gardiner does not let me down with many extras included in set and modern sound

















For Brahms you mention someday checking Water NYPO......make that today! 
What a comlpete 180 from the relaxed later CBS columbia set, NYPO is as exciting and dramatic as any set out there, Bruno is in complete overdrive!










I also love the Jochum Brahms sets and along the same stylistic performances you may want to check the harder to find Dorati, I find them both the real deal and no lack of dramatic drive when called for, but Dorati stereo sound could be better and it is a collection over time from two orchestras LSO/MSO


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^^ I am also with you on the Sanderling Brahms set and I will also mention Dohnanyi when he was doing many great things with Cleveland and Decca records, also as a single CD to go with reference Kleiber DG 4th the Reiner/RPO has moments of greatness on Chesky label


----------



## Josquin13

Dark Angel writes, "always have loved Sawallish Schumann EMI set, vibrant exciting and captures the slightly off kilter rythms with thrilling results that escapes most conductors....."

Agreed, I don't think I've ever heard another orchestra play the opening of the 3rd Rhenish with such energy & abandon as the Staatskapelle Dresden. They keep me on the edge of my seat (here, and throughout the rest of the cycle).

I'm surprised you don't like either Kubelik. I'm afraid Szell's Schumann is too relentlessly hyper-drilled for me, like he was cracking a whip over their poor heads--though I know it's a highly regarded set. But I'll have to check out Bernstein's Schumann. As I rule, I tend to avoid Bernstein's later Vienna recordings, but do remember hearing one of his Schumann symphonies on the radio one day & liking it. It was one of those times where I had to pull the car over & park, just to find out who the performance was by.

I'll have to check out the Reiner, Dorati, and Walter NYPO recordings, thanks for the recommendations.


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## Heck148

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^^ I am also with you on the Sanderling Brahms set and I will also mention Dohnanyi when he was doing many great things with Cleveland and Decca records, also as a single CD to go with reference Kleiber DG 4th the Reiner/RPO has moments of greatness on Chesky label
> 
> [/IMG]


The Reiner/RPO is a great account - top of the list, along with Toscanini/NBC '51....these are the benchmarks for me....wouldn't want to be without either.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I can revise, yes? I continue to enjoy Abravenel and the Utah Symphony








But also quite enjoy this one that may not have been mentioned 








And for Schumann it is still 








Although Sergiu Comissiona and the Houston Symphony certainly do a stalwart job on the budget download Schumann Box


----------



## wkasimer

The mono Walter recording of the Brahms with the NYPO is one of my favorites.

For Schumann, Dausgaard is worth checking out, particularly on this cheap download:









I don't think that anyone has mentioned van Beinum's Brahms:









For both Brahms and Schumann in decent sound, I'm also a fan of Levine's recordings (each cycle twice).


----------



## Manxfeeder

wkasimer said:


> I don't think that anyone has mentioned van Beinum's Brahms:
> .


That reminds me, someone a few years ago suggested van Beinum's Brahms recordings, and I never got around to exploring it. Now that there's Amazon Music and Spotify, I can finally test the waters.


----------



## wkasimer

Manxfeeder said:


> That reminds me, someone a few years ago suggested van Beinum's Brahms recordings, and I never got around to exploring it. Now that there's Amazon Music and Spotify, I can finally test the waters.


There's also a terrific Brahms violin concerto with Grumiaux.

I suspect that van Beinum would be much better known if he hadn't died so young (he was 57), before stereo recordings really took off.


----------



## Josquin13

I agree. My appreciation for Eduard van Beinum's conducting has been growing in recent years, ever since I heard his remarkable Beethoven 2nd Symphony, where I found him to be a deeply insightful conductor. Though I've not yet heard his Brahms Symphonies 1-4. However, his recordings of the Brahms & Beethoven Violin Concertos with Arthur Grumiaux are among the best in the catalogue, & show Grumiaux at his most inspired. Both can be heard on You Tube:


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

wkasimer said:


> The mono Walter recording of the Brahms with the NYPO is one of my favorites.
> 
> For Schumann, Dausgaard is worth checking out, particularly on this cheap download:
> 
> View attachment 103745
> 
> 
> I don't think that anyone has mentioned van Beinum's Brahms:
> 
> View attachment 103746
> 
> 
> For both Brahms and Schumann in decent sound, I'm also a fan of Levine's recordings (each cycle twice).


I'm a sucker for cheap downloads.


----------



## Merl

I've never got on with Dausgaard's Schumann. I find it dull as dishwater.


----------



## Ras

*SCHUMANN: Sawallisch on EMI* is my favorite - 2nd favorite would be a tie between *Otto Klemperer and Georg Solti.* 
I dislike the hipsters in Schumann - so no Gardiner or Harnoncourt (on Teldec with The Chamber Orchestra of Europe) for me.


----------



## Ras

*BRAHMS:*
Otto Klemperer
Haitink on Decca (I don't know what to think about Haitink's LSO live set yet - it is his most recent recording)
James Levine
Bruno Walter
Georg Solti
Barenboim on Warner
John Barbirolli
Kurt Sanderling

Hipsters that I like: Gardiner on SDG and Charles MacKerras on Telarc.

(Sorry, about the missing "Sir's".)

I like Brahms' symphonies much more than Schumann's.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Manxfeeder said:


> That reminds me, someone a few years ago suggested van Beinum's Brahms recordings, and I never got around to exploring it. Now that there's Amazon Music and Spotify, I can finally test the waters.


I've always felt Van Beinum's Brahms First, Second and Fourth (all from the later 1950s) were among the best ever made. The Second and Third were recorded in mono; First and Fourth in stereo. His Brahms Violin Concerto performance with Arthur Grumiaux (praised by Josquin13 and wkasimer) is also superb.


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## Merl

Resurrecting this as I've been listening to a lot of my Schumann cycles recently. Current top 5 are:

1. Sawallisch Dresden (tbh this one never moves from the top)
2. Jordan OSR
3. Dohnanyi Cleveland
4. Ticciati / Gaudenz Odense
5. Vonk Koln / Levine Philadelphia

Again, this will change soon as ive got another 5 sets ready to listen to.


----------



## flamencosketches

I have been listening to a lot of Klemperer's Brahms symphonies. Really, he opened my eyes to the greatness of this music. I have tried many times before but it's not until the past few weeks that I began to really love these four symphonies. However, I'm afraid my love for the Klemperer set is getting in the way of any other interpretations. What would be a good set to have as a contrast? I've also heard parts of Solti and Karajan ('60s), and neither of them did much for me. Maybe Szell/Cleveland, or Walter/Columbia? 

I still have yet to have this experience with Schumann's symphonies. I like them well enough, but have never been blown away by any of them. I really want to get the Sawallisch/Dresden set.

I'm hoping Merl or Itullian sees this, as I think both of them might know what's up


----------



## Guest

Ras said:


> *SCHUMANN: Sawallisch on EMI* is my favorite - 2nd favorite would be a tie between *Otto Klemperer and Georg Solti.*
> I dislike the hipsters in Schumann - so no Gardiner or Harnoncourt (on Teldec with The Chamber Orchestra of Europe) for me.


We agree on Swallisch, at least.


----------



## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> I have been listening to a lot of Klemperer's Brahms symphonies. Really, he opened my eyes to the greatness of this music. I have tried many times before but it's not until the past few weeks that I began to really love these four symphonies. However, I'm afraid my love for the Klemperer set is getting in the way of any other interpretations. What would be a good set to have as a contrast? I've also heard parts of Solti and Karajan ('60s), and neither of them did much for me. Maybe Szell/Cleveland, or Walter/Columbia?
> 
> I still have yet to have this experience with Schumann's symphonies. I like them well enough, but have never been blown away by any of them. I really want to get the Sawallisch/Dresden set.
> 
> I'm hoping Merl or Itullian sees this, as I think both of them might know what's up


For Schumann I suggest Dohnanyi/Cleveland (Decca).

For Brahms, a good contrast might be one of the smaller ensemble performances. I just got Zehetmair and will start listening soon. There's also Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra.


----------



## Merl

Baron Scarpia said:


> For Schumann I suggest Dohnanyi/Cleveland (Decca).
> 
> For Brahms, a good contrast might be one of the smaller ensemble performances. I just got Zehetmair and will start listening soon. There's also Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra.


Great suggestions, Baron. Dohnanyi's Schumann is excellent (as is his Cleveland Brahms too). Zehetmair's Brahms cycle is very impressive and his 4th is, for me, one of the best recordings out there. He often cites Dohnanyi as one of his biggest influences For Schumann you should listen to Ticciati's terrific Schumann cycle.


----------



## Guest

^^^I also have the Dohnanyi Brahms recordings and hope to find time to listen soon. I ration Brahms, due to the terror that I will grow fatigued of it.


----------



## Itullian

flamencosketches said:


> I have been listening to a lot of Klemperer's Brahms symphonies. Really, he opened my eyes to the greatness of this music. I have tried many times before but it's not until the past few weeks that I began to really love these four symphonies. However, I'm afraid my love for the Klemperer set is getting in the way of any other interpretations. What would be a good set to have as a contrast? I've also heard parts of Solti and Karajan ('60s), and neither of them did much for me. Maybe Szell/Cleveland, or Walter/Columbia?
> 
> I still have yet to have this experience with Schumann's symphonies. I like them well enough, but have never been blown away by any of them. I really want to get the Sawallisch/Dresden set.
> 
> I'm hoping Merl or Itullian sees this, as I think both of them might know what's up


Why not stick with Klempy if you like his approach?
A contrast to Klemperer would be fast and light.
I don't care for fast and light Brahms or Schumann
I want to be emotionally blown away by them.

I tried some of the small orchestra versions and didn't care for them..


----------



## flamencosketches

Itullian said:


> A contrast to Klemperer would be fast and light.
> I don't care for fast and light Brahms or Schumann
> I want to be emotionally blown away by them.


Well, it doesn't have to be a polar opposite. Surely his way is not the only way...? I don't know, perhaps you're right. Like I may have said, it took me until hearing Klemperer to really "get" Brahms. I really love his recordings of Brahms with the Philharmonia on EMI. Amazing.

Anyway... @Merl et al. Dohnányi, eh? I have been meaning to look more into his grandpa, Ernst von Dohnányi, the composer, whose music I find quite Brahmsian. I've never heard any of Dohnányi the younger's conducting efforts, though I have heard of him. Will have to check it out. Zehetmair I was recently recommended by another member here. That might be a good call as well. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> That reminds me, someone a few years ago suggested van Beinum's Brahms recordings, and I never got around to exploring it. Now that there's Amazon Music and Spotify, I can finally test the waters.


I had his tragic overture (I think) on an Eloquence CD and it was fantasic. I never got around to finding his symphonies, since they were not readily available and I was disappointed to find out that they were not all stereo. I have to remind myself how much Brahms I already have.


----------



## Itullian

flamencosketches said:


> Well, it doesn't have to be a polar opposite. Surely his way is not the only way...? I don't know, perhaps you're right. Like I may have said, it took me until hearing Klemperer to really "get" Brahms. I really love his recordings of Brahms with the Philharmonia on EMI. Amazing.
> 
> Anyway... @Merl et al. Dohnányi, eh? I have been meaning to look more into his grandpa, Ernst von Dohnányi, the composer, whose music I find quite Brahmsian. I've never heard any of Dohnányi the younger's conducting efforts, though I have heard of him. Will have to check it out. Zehetmair I was recently recommended by another member here. That might be a good call as well. Thanks everyone.


The Levine sets of both composers on RCA and DG are all outstanding.
Dohnanyi is a great set.
If you want to be a little adventurous, Sinopoli is an excellent one.


----------



## Guest

Itullian said:


> A contrast to Klemperer would be fast and light.
> I don't care for fast and light Brahms or Schumann
> I want to be emotionally blown away by them.
> 
> I tried some of the small orchestra versions and didn't care for them..


I don't find that a big orchestra is necessary to be emotionally blown away. The intimacy of a small ensemble can evoke emotions in a different way.


----------



## Merl

Baron Scarpia said:


> I don't find that a big orchestra is necessary to be emotionally blown away. The intimacy of a small ensemble can evoke emotions in a different way.


I agree. Zehetmair gets more power from his orchestra than many big-band ensembles, playing stodgy, uber-grandiose Brahms. More forces don't always equate to more power or quality.


----------



## wkasimer

Merl said:


> I agree. Zehetmair gets more power from his orchestra than many big-band ensembles, playing stodgy, uber-grandiose Brahms. More forces don't always equate to more power or quality.


And I'd say the same of Gardiner's Schumann set.


----------



## Itullian

Merl said:


> I agree. Zehetmair gets more power from his orchestra than many big-band ensembles, playing stodgy, uber-grandiose Brahms. More forces don't always equate to more power or quality.


Who does uer grandiose, stodgy Brahms? just curious.

I think, imho, Gardiner's Schumann is awful.


----------



## flamencosketches

Itullian said:


> Who does uer grandiose, stodgy Brahms? just curious.


I was wondering that too. He better not mean Klemperer...  I may just be going through a phase of some kind, but I'm obsessed with those recordings. I think he really hits the nail on the head with this great music. I'm not familiar enough other recordings to know for sure: does Klemperer take these Brahms symphonies notably slower than most? He is known for slowing down works, but the tempi here sound perfect to my ears.


----------



## Guest

Itullian said:


> Who does uer grandiose, stodgy Brahms? just curious.


Probably Maazel/Cleveland could be described as lumbering. Very effective slow movements, but the outer movements drag.

I find myself attracted to a lyrical approach (Ansermet, Barbirolli).


----------



## Itullian

Baron Scarpia said:


> Probably Maazel/Cleveland could be described as lumbering. Very effective slow movements, but the outer movements drag.
> 
> I find myself attracted to a lyrical approach (Ansermet, Barbirolli).


I like Barbirolli too.
I would have thought he would be in the lumbering, slow crowd.


----------



## Guest

Itullian said:


> I would have thought he would be in the lumbering, slow crowd.


Barbirolli knows how to go slow, but squeeze all the juice out.


----------



## Guest

Itullian said:


> Who does uer grandiose, stodgy Brahms? just curious.


...and I hate to concede ground to the Karajan-haters, but with some exceptions I find his Brahms to be on the dull, stodgy side. I think his '63 #4 is fantastic, and his '86 #2, but generally I find his Brahms generic and too string heavy.


----------



## Merl

Itullian said:


> Who does uer grandiose, stodgy Brahms? just curious.
> .


 As the Baron said, Maazel is a prime example of stodgy old Brahms but otherwise..... 
Bernstein / VPO (just dreadful) 
Asahina (excruciatingly slow and boring)
Slatkin (yawn) 
Mehta (yawn)

And there's a quite a few who knock out fairly good Brahms but mess up the 3rd symphony, making it into a gloopy, dreary trudge.
As far as Klempy is concerned I've had that set in many incarnations over the years. It's still one I return to often.


----------



## Itullian

Well,i love the Bernstein and Klempy.
Haven't heard the rest.
I'll be digging in to the Lenny set later


----------



## flamencosketches

I wasn't impressed with Karajan's Brahms much. He somehow manages to make the third symphony sound weak. I've only heard the '60s recordings, to be fair, but I generally prefer his earlier recordings to the later anyway.


----------



## Heck148

Merl said:


> As the Baron said, Maazel is a prime example of stodgy old Brahms but otherwise.....
> Bernstein / VPO (just dreadful)
> Asahina (excruciatingly slow and boring)
> Slatkin (yawn)
> Mehta (yawn)
> 
> And there's a quite a few who knock out fairly good Brahms but mess up the 3rd symphony, making it into a gloopy, dreary trudge.
> As far as Klempy is concerned I've had that set in many incarnations over the years. It's still one I return to often.


Brahms 3 is a difficult test for conductor and orchestra, esp mvt I, but IV is tough to bring off as well.
the rhythm in mvt I defeats many, the overall 6/4 must prevail, but, there is so much rhythmic detail that the subdivision must be clearly exposed...often this fails, resulting in the sludgy, muddy mess to which you refer...also, there those who try to conduct the opening in 3/2, setting the tone for a stodgy wreck.


----------



## billeames

realdealblues said:


> I can't pick one favorite for these two.
> 
> Brahms - My Top 10...err 13, in no particular order.
> 
> Kempe/Munich
> Klemperer/Philharmonia
> Wand/NDR
> Bernstein/New York
> Sanderling/Dresden
> Dohnanyi/Cleveland
> Szell/Cleveland
> Abbado/Berlin
> Levine/Chicago or Vienna
> Jochum/Berlin or London
> Walter/Columbia
> 
> Schumann - My Top 10, again in no particular order.
> 
> Bernstein/New York
> Bernstein/Vienna
> Szell/Cleveland
> Sawallisch/Dresden
> Marriner/Academy Of St. Martin
> Muti/Vienna
> Mehta/Vienna
> Klemperer/Philharmonia
> Levine/Philadelphia
> Kubelik/Bavarian Radio


Regarding Brahms, Yes agree except Abbado. On Schumann, I like all, except have not heard Levine, Muti, Marriner.


----------



## Merl

billeames said:


> Regarding Brahms, Yes agree except Abbado. On Schumann, I like all, except have not heard Levine, Muti, Marriner.


Both of these are great sets. You can pick up that Philly set secondhand for buttons three days if you keep your eyes on Ebay.














it


----------



## arpeggio

Heck148 said:


> Brahms 3 is a difficult test for conductor and orchestra, esp mvt I, but IV is tough to bring off as well.
> the rhythm in mvt I defeats many, the overall 6/4 must prevail, but, there is so much rhythmic detail that the subdivision must be clearly exposed...often this fails, resulting in the sludgy, muddy mess to which you refer...also, there those who try to conduct the opening in 3/2, setting the tone for a stodgy wreck.


Ditto.

Several years ago out community orchestra tried to play the Brahms _Third_. It was one of the most difficult pieces I have ever played and it was a very rough performance.


----------



## Itullian

Amazing cycle.........


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Amazing cycle.........


Do you prefer this to Sanderling's earlier traversal with the Dresden Staatskapelle? I love the latter, but have been warned against the above later set with the Berlin SO.


----------



## Merl

wkasimer said:


> Do you prefer this to Sanderling's earlier traversal with the Dresden Staatskapelle? I love the latter, but have been warned against the above later set with the Berlin SO.


I dunno about Itullian but I rate both of these sets as almost equals. My very sleight preference is for the Dresden set but I'm sure that's just as it was one of the first I got and loved and it is a little quicker. Tbh, you can't go wrong with either.


----------



## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> Do you prefer this to Sanderling's earlier traversal with the Dresden Staatskapelle? I love the latter, but have been warned against the above later set with the Berlin SO.


This recordings level is on the low side.
The volume needs to be turned up to really be able to
hear it well.

The Dresden sound is more immediate.
If you have the Dresden you don't really need
this one.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> The Dresden sound is more immediate.
> If you have the Dresden you don't really need
> this one.


It's not a question of "need"....


----------



## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> It's not a question of "need"....


I'll say it this way.
The performance is magnificent. Warm, spacious.
The listening perspective is like sitting in the first 10 rows for the Dresden cycle,
sitting in the 30th row for the Berlin.


----------



## Ras

*Sanderling Berlin s.o.*



wkasimer said:


> It's not a question of "need"....


If it is the same one relessed on Capriccio it is on Spotify:


----------



## Itullian

Ras said:


> If it is the same one relessed on Capriccio it is on Spotify:


It's the same one.


----------



## Itullian

A must have!


----------



## Merl

Itullian said:


> A must have!


Yep. Such a good set . Always reminds me of Wand's cycle, in vision and tempi (moderate) but the orchestral textures are very different and unique and set this apart from many of the moderate paced sets. Tbh, few people have a bad word to say about this cycle but perhaps (like Wand's) it's just too good to be criticised. My only criticism is that I think he takes the 3rd Symphony a little too slowly. It sounds lovely though.


----------



## Itullian

My newest Brahms symphony set. Listening to #1 now and love it!


----------



## CnC Bartok

I've got the RCA Sanderling/Dresden set coming in the post. Looking forward to hearing it, a conductor I tend to overlook and take for granted.


----------



## Itullian

CnC Bartok said:


> I've got the RCA Sanderling/Dresden set coming in the post. Looking forward to hearing it, a conductor I tend to overlook and take for granted.


It's a great set!


----------



## CnC Bartok

Itullian said:


> It's a great set!


I'll hold you to that! :tiphat:


----------



## Botschaft

From a recent, overlooked cycle:


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^
Picked it up


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^
> Picked it up


I love Brahms 1-4 sets that also *have both overtures and HV* as important fillers, they are great works!

Put this in buy basket at Presto UK since I recently got the Saraste WDR Beethoven set......










Did you notice both Saraste and Bychkov Brahms 1-4 are with WDR Koln...........


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^Yes, I did notice that 










And love this set


----------



## Itullian

After listening to samples, I ordered this one too.


----------



## Merl

Itullian said:


> After listening to samples, I ordered this one too.


Decent set but De Vriend's LVB cycle is even better.


----------



## DarkAngel

Merl said:


> Decent set but De Vriend's LVB cycle is even better.


Plus Beethoven PC 1-5.......don't see a Brahms 1-4 set available yet


----------



## Itullian

Merl said:


> Decent set but De Vriend's LVB cycle is even better.


Too expensive


----------



## Merl

DarkAngel said:


> Plus Beethoven PC 1-5.......don't see a Brahms 1-4 set available yet


That's an impressive set too.


----------



## Itullian

This set is great!!!!!!!


----------



## Merl

My Brahms listening today was.......









A nice set. Don't play it as much as I should. Lovely textures. Good 1st.


----------



## Itullian

This seems to be the odd man out, the Sawallisch no one ever talks about.
But this is a fantastic set that I wouldn't be without.
Just listened to #3 and got the chills.
The digital sound is deep and rich, and
the Philadelphians play beautifully for Sawallisch.
I love it.


----------



## Itullian

Awesome


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Awesome


DG pulled a fast one on us with the PC and VC are on DVD not CD format.....even though I have seen them available as individual CDs, they should include both formats in boxset with the DVD as a free "bonus"

Sound samples of symphonies 1-4 do sound very good, his Dresden work in general is usually very good!


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^That's true, that sucks, but being a big Thielemann fan I have the concertos on the Complete Thieleman DG box set which includes those cds.


----------



## Itullian

I love it!!

The last movement of the 2nd symphony on this recording guaranteed to give you goose bumps!!!!!!!!
I listened to it 5 times!!!!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I love it!!
> 
> The last movement of the 2nd symphony on this recording guaranteed to give you goose bumps!!!!!!!!
> I listened to it 5 times!!!!!


Great minds think alike, I bought that yesterday at Amazon USA prime for $17 

Again his Dresden work usually very good........


----------



## Itullian

^^^^To me, Thielemann has the beauty and power of Karajan with the flexibility and emotion of Furtwangler.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^To me, Thielemann has the beauty and power of Karajan with the flexibility and emotion of Furtwangler.


Merl is already loading up his next buy basket......ka ching, ka ching 

I agree that there is some HVK influence in Thielemann's style


----------



## Itullian

^^^^That would make sense since I believe he studied under him.


----------



## Merl

DarkAngel said:


> Merl is already loading up his next buy basket......ka ching, ka ching
> 
> I agree that that there is some HVK influence in Thielemann's style


Lol. I've actually got it. Tbh, I need to relisten to it. I've only played it through twice but found it a bit overblown both times with little relief. However, I did like it. I just didn't 'love' it. I'll give it another go this weekend. I do like Thielemann. He's made some really good recordings, especially his tremendous Carmina Burana, a consistently good Brahms cycle and some very nice Bruckner. The biggest blot on the landscape is his rather dull Beethoven cycle (complete with it's horrid muddy sound).


----------



## Itullian

A great set!


----------



## starthrower

Merl said:


> Resurrecting this as I've been listening to a lot of my Schumann cycles recently. Current top 5 are:
> 
> 1. Sawallisch Dresden (tbh this one never moves from the top)
> 2. Jordan OSR
> 3. Dohnanyi Cleveland
> 4. Ticciati / Gaudenz Odense
> 5. Vonk Koln / Levine Philadelphia
> 
> Again, this will change soon as ive got another 5 sets ready to listen to.


Sawallisch/Dresden is my only set so I guess I'm good! I bought 4 disc 200th Anniversary orchestral set.


----------



## Merl

This Oramo cycle is very interesting. Listening to the First two symphonies in the car today, I was struck by the warmth, dynamism and vitality of his live performances. Lovely playing from the Stockholmers and excellent sound. Warmly recommended.


----------



## Itullian

This is the Sanderling one to get for his Dresden cycle as none of the symphonies are split up between discs, as they are on the Eurodisc issue


----------



## Itullian

Just added this.
Awesome!


----------



## jim prideaux

Merl said:


> This Oramo cycle is very interesting. Listening to the First two symphonies in the car today, I was struck by the warmth, dynamism and vitality of his live performances. Lovely playing from the Stockholmers and excellent sound. Warmly recommended.
> 
> View attachment 124173


have been an advocate of these particular recordings for a while......can only agree with Merl.


----------



## DarkAngel

Really love this 6 CD low price 1950s Brahms 1-4 mono boxset in great sound, also includes PCs with Gieseking and Anda.....only slight negative is no overtures, on sale at Presto UK


----------



## starthrower

Just ordered a used copy of this one. I'll probably end up with the Klemperer Brahms. I'm going to pick up a few of the Warner/EMI boxes.


----------



## CnC Bartok

^^^ That's a very good set, a decent investment, with "good sound quality for its time"


----------



## Itullian

Just picked this set up for $8.00


----------



## starthrower

Itullian said:


> Just picked this set up for $8.00


I couldn't figure that one out with the blurry image.


----------



## Merl

Itullian said:


> Just picked this set up for $8.00


An impressive set. Good choice.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Thanks to Starthrower's blow up picture, we can now see what's on it! Anything which includes the wonderful Konzertstuck for four horns simply has to be a winner!


----------



## Heck148

CnC Bartok said:


> Thanks to Starthrower's blow up picture, we can now see what's on it! Anything which includes the wonderful Konzertstuck for four horns simply has to be a winner!


love the Konzertstuck for Horns!! wonderful piece....First horn part is a real virtuoso challenge!!


----------



## starthrower

I just got the Szell set today which sounds awesome! I love the vintage style of the gatefold CD edition too. I've always liked Gerard Schwarz as well. I have some of his other Delos recordings and quite a few on Naxos.


----------



## jegreenwood

starthrower said:


> I just got the Szell set today which sounds awesome! I love the vintage style of the gatefold CD edition too. I've always liked Gerard Schwarz as well. I have some of his other Delos recordings and quite a few on Naxos.


Szell was my first Schumann cycle on Odyssey LPs. It was also one of my first SACD purchases (2 individual single layer discs). I now own the redbook as well courtesy of the Szell mega-box.


----------



## starthrower

Itullian said:


> This is the Sanderling one to get for his Dresden cycle as none of the symphonies are split up between discs, as they are on the Eurodisc issue


I just bought a copy for 8 bucks. Listening to the samples, I love the sound of this recording. I got the version with the white border and portrait of Brahms but it's the same recordings on Eurodisc.


----------



## jim prideaux

starthrower said:


> I just bought a copy for 8 bucks. Listening to the samples, I love the sound of this recording. I got the version with the white border and portrait of Brahms but it's the same recordings on Eurodisc.
> 
> View attachment 126320


I managed to get the 'classical navigation' box set for little cost a while ago and although \I am fortunate to have access to a number of Brahms' recordings this is the one.....the most significant competion being....Sanderling again (with the Berlin S.O.)


----------



## Merl

jim prideaux said:


> I managed to get the 'classical navigation' box set for little cost a while ago and although \I am fortunate to have access to a number of Brahms' recordings this is the one.....the most significant competion being....Sanderling again (with the Berlin S.O.)


I agree with Jim. Both Sanderling sets are superb and equally indispensable.


----------



## starthrower

I'm glad I spotted Itullian's post and gave these a listen. I was all set on ordering the Klemperer Brahms but I prefer the pacing of Sanderling. Klemp is a tad lethargic in his tempos and phrasings, but there's still something I like about it. There's a weight of significance he brings to several works that I feel in the performances, so I may pick up his Brahms as well.


----------



## Itullian

Itullian said:


> Just picked this set up for $8.00


Received this yesterday and have been listening to it.
It's a very nice set which is recorded very well.
The pieces other than the symphonies are very good, straight ahead recordings.
The symphonies are straight forward as well, but I prefer more depth and passion in these

I prefer more passionate versions such as Levine, Bernstein, Sinopoli, Sawallisch, Thielemann, etc


----------



## starthrower

Is Bernstein's DG Brahms cycle on the sh#t list? I have a very nice original slipcase edition I bought used for 4 dollars. I just dug it out and I'm going to give it a listen. But I noticed it never gets mentioned here. Is it too ponderous and lacking energy?


----------



## Guest

I only know the 3rd symphony, which had an astonishingly slow first movement which I never could get past.


----------



## Itullian

starthrower said:


> Is Bernstein's DG Brahms cycle on the sh#t list? I have a very nice original slipcase edition I bought used for 4 dollars. I just dug it out and I'm going to give it a listen. But I noticed it never gets mentioned here. Is it too ponderous and lacking energy?
> 
> View attachment 126341


No one here seems to like it.
But I do. 
Go figure.


----------



## starthrower

I'm listening to the 3rd right now! Not much oomph in the opener, but the second movement is gorgeous!


----------



## D Smith

I have the Bernstein Vienna Brahms and I found it a bit underwhelming. I did quite like the 4th though and the Haydn Variations. But overall I prefer his earlier recodings with New York.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

starthrower said:


> Is Bernstein's DG Brahms cycle on the sh#t list? I have a very nice original slipcase edition I bought used for 4 dollars. I just dug it out and I'm going to give it a listen. But I noticed it never gets mentioned here. Is it too ponderous and lacking energy?
> 
> View attachment 126341


My favorite from that set is the 1st. It's a bit eccentric in tempo choices, but what makes it stand out is the dramatic passion and tension that really brings out the greatness in the work. You really get a sense of struggle missing in so many other recordings.

The 2nd is quite beautiful and the least eccentric of the four.

The 3rd I just do not like at all. There is no flow to it, especially in the first movement.

The 4th has some good moments but also suffers from strange gear shifts, most annoyingly in the last movement.


----------



## starthrower

I didn't care for the 4th in that set. But it's my least favorite Brahms symphony. The 3rd was fine after the 1st movement. Will listen to 1-2 tomorrow.


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> Is Bernstein's DG Brahms cycle on the sh#t list? I have a very nice original slipcase edition I bought used for 4 dollars. I just dug it out and I'm going to give it a listen. But I noticed it never gets mentioned here. Is it too ponderous and lacking energy?
> 
> View attachment 126341


Aye, there's not much love for that Bernstein Brahms set. As Bhs noted the 3rd is awful in that set and the 4th ponderous. Naturally the playing of the VPO is glorious but the whole set is so self-indulgent and torpid I can't listen to it anymore (I have it). Bernstein's first set was much better but I'm not that crazy about that either. I don't think he ever got Brahms which is surprising considering what a great job he did with the Schumann symphonies, also with the VPO. Late Bernstein is very hit and miss with me.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I'm glad I spotted Itullian's post and gave these a listen. I was all set on ordering the Klemperer Brahms but I prefer the pacing of Sanderling. Klemp is a tad lethargic in his tempos and phrasings, but there's still something I like about it. There's a weight of significance he brings to several works that I feel in the performances, so I may pick up his Brahms as well.


Nothing lethargic about it my friend, his tempi totally work in Brahms. Though your post has made me really want the Sanderling/Dresden set now. I love the Dresden Staatskapelle, one of my favorite orchestras.


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## starthrower

I will be listening to Klempy as well. Every conductor has their own approach. Bernstein is a bit odd on his DG cycle but he really shines on the slow movements. Lethargic was the wrong descriptor. Klemperer has a different way of pacing and phrasing. If I have to choose I'll go with slightly slower tempos as I don't like conductors who rush through the music.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Merl said:


> Aye, there's not much love for that Bernstein Brahms set. As Bhs noted the 3rd is awful in that set *and the 4th ponderous*.


The basic tempo is not the issue. It is the random gear shifts that disrupt the flow. There is push and pull that sounds natural and then there is push and pull that sounds distorted. Furtwangler was the greatest Brahms conductor on record, and his gear shifts sounded totally natural.

The one exception I make for Bernstein is the first. This is a work that is less about flow and more about tension and drama. Actually, Bernstein's tempo for the opening is faster than normal. But most of all what you hear with Bernstein in the 1st is angst and longing in the most nakedly passionate of Brahms's symphonies. This is what makes his reading stand out as an essential version of this symphony.


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## Merl

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The basic tempo is not the issue. It is the random gear shifts that disrupt the flow.


Agreed. What I was trying to say, is that by doing this it makes the performance sound ponderous and drag. I know you love Furty but I find he does the same in his 1954 Berlin 3rd. Incidentally I dont feel the same about the rest of Furty's Brahms.....just the 3rd.


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## starthrower

Bernstein expounds on the "mysterious" 3rd symphony.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Merl said:


> Agreed. What I was trying to say, is that by doing this it makes the performance sound ponderous and drag. I know you love Furty but I find he does the same in his 1954 Berlin 3rd. Incidentally I dont feel the same about the rest of Furty's Brahms.....just the 3rd.


That's my favorite of all 3rds. Not ponderous at all. Beautiful, natural, and powerful.


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## Itullian

Picked this one up.


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## Merl

Itullian said:


> Picked this one up.


Mehta never gets a lot of love but that set is very good. I like his Israel Brahms too (even if he's hardly groundbreaking). Its much better than his first Brahms cycle.


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## Itullian

Another set


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## jim prideaux

Skrowaczeski and the Deutsches Radio Philharmonie (Oehms)

First listen to Schumann's 2nd and 3rd...…..

up there with his Brahms and Beethoven cycles.


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## 13hm13

Webernite said:


> Yes, Harnoncourt. The big problem with that set is that it's not properly miked. I don't have much of a problem with the actual performances.


Teldec often suffers from engineering issues. Many of their digital recordings are quite harsh (similar with DG). May have been DG and Teldec may have shared some family ties in the Polygram day.


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## Itullian




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## Itullian




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