# Sophisticated Metal?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Does it exist? Depth of lyrical content, intriguing musical structures? Tool comes to mind, especially their albums Lateralus and 10,000 Days, but I just don't love it.

I'd love some other suggestions.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Don't know if the lyrics are especially deep, but Satyricons latest is awesome, if you can stand black metal style vocals. They even "kidnapped" a tenor and some brass!


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2018)

"Extensive touring throughout 2001 and 2002 supported Lateralus and included a personal highlight for the band: a 10-show joint mini-tour with King Crimson in August 2001. Comparisons between the two were made, MTV describing the bands as "the once and future kings of progressive rock". Keenan stated of the minitour: "For me, being on stage with King Crimson is like Lenny Kravitz playing with Led Zeppelin, or Britney Spears onstage with Debbie Gibson." "

- Wiki


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Don't know if the lyrics are especially deep, but Satyricons latest is awesome, if you can stand black metal style vocals. They even "kidnapped" a tenor and some brass!


Would you mind posting some of your favorites?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

dogen said:


> "Extensive touring throughout 2001 and 2002 supported Lateralus and included a personal highlight for the band: a 10-show joint mini-tour with King Crimson in August 2001. Comparisons between the two were made, MTV describing the bands as "the once and future kings of progressive rock". Keenan stated of the minitour: "For me, being on stage with King Crimson is like Lenny Kravitz playing with Led Zeppelin, or Britney Spears onstage with Debbie Gibson." "
> 
> - Wiki


Was he taking a stab at his own work?


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Was he taking a stab at his own work?


Sorry, I don't understand?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

dogen said:


> Sorry, I don't understand?


It sounds like the comparisons he was making, Lenny like playing with Zep and Brit playing with Debbie...I got the idea he was making the statement that a less talented artist was playing with a great talent.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Would you mind posting some of your favorites?


Here's a slow one!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Here's a slow one!


Thanks for sharing, but it wasn't really to my taste.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Dream Theater? Try 'Train of Thought' and 'Octavarium' . Great albums. If youike shredding and instrumental metal then Buckethead 'Hold Me Forever' album is essential.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)




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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Merl said:


>


I'll check those out!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

The DT I've heard was a bit on the cheesy side I feel. I haven't heard any buckethead studio work, but I've heard him live before. The man can play!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

If you could give some examples of stuff you like I may be able to help. I was moderator on a huge metal site for many years. Here's a cracking song and album too. Great lyrics as well. I reckon these guys might be just what you're looking for.....


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> If you could give some examples of stuff you like I may be able to help. I was moderator on a huge metal site for many years. Here's a cracking song and album too. Great lyrics as well. I reckon these guys might be just what you're looking for.....


Oh yes, I do love them.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Another great album with wonderful lyrics......


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Otherwise try Opeth (Blackwater Park era) and Orphaned Land. Otherwise In Flames have some great lyrics but it's whether you can handle the vocals. Great clean choruses, though.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It sounds like the comparisons he was making, Lenny like playing with Zep and Brit playing with Debbie...I got the idea he was making the statement that a less talented artist was playing with a great talent.


I don't think it was about talent. Tool have said KC have been an influence, so I would say Tool were acknowledging that influence.


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## Boychev (Jul 21, 2014)

You might want to give some 80s and early 90s prog and tech metal a try. Obligatory mentions:

Fates Warning - The Spectre Within (1985)
Fates Warning - Awaken the Guardian (1986)
Watchtower - Energetic Disassembly (1985)
Voivod - Killing Technology (1987)
Voivod - Dimension Hatröss (1988)
Voivod - Nothingface (1989)
Coroner - Punishment for Decadence (1988)
Atheist - Piece of Time (1989)
Atheist - Unquestionable Presence (1991)

My personal favourite "sophisticated" metal release would be Ved Buens Ende's Written in Waters (1995), a surreal poetic masterpiece.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Try Pain of Salvation, sample the song _Beyond the pale_ first.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

it's an interesting question, I've thought about that many times. Unfortunately I've never heard any metal that I would consider sophisticated, or better the level of sophistication is very far from what I think when I think of sophisticated music. Sure, some bands mentioned (like Voivod, Watchtower, Van Buens Ende) added a degree of complexity and dissonance in their music bringing a bit of King Crimson-ish style to metal.
Dream theater under the technical complexities of their music make music that it's not sophisticated at all in my opinion. It's all in your face, no subtlety in terms of emotion. Opeth made the same impression on me. Atheist same.
I don't know, I'd really like to find something truly sophisticated and subtle, but I can't really think of anything. Maybe that's the limit of a genre that is more based on rage, violence and extremism and it's difficult to do that and being sophisticated and subtle at the same time.


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## Boychev (Jul 21, 2014)

^I think it's due to the format itself. First, songwriting is limited by basing the songs on riffs. This makes the songs sound like a mechanical arrangement of cells of ideas, where you repeat cell A 16 times, move on to cell B and repeat that 16 times, and so on, and there is little variation to these repetitions aside from the vocals and maybe the occasional lead or drum fill here and there. But then how far from that can you deviate without leaving the boundaries of metal? If you completely abandon riff-based compositions, the end result would be some kind of extreme prog rock music or experimental guitar music rather than metal - Glenn Branca was loud and abrasive and extreme, but he plainly didn't make metal.

Then there's the instrumentation that severely limits the possible harmonic language and the possibilities for rich and nuanced dynamics. Distorted guitars aren't good for complex harmonies, because the sound gets muddled and it becomes increasingly difficult to tell what's being played. Loud drums take up a big part of the mix, often making the bass barely audible, and the solution in recent years has been to neuter the drums by replacing each hit by the drummer with a drum sample, killing the dynamics. And these instruments, the way they are handled in metal, give you two options for dynamics - very loud, and loud. Obviously it is possible to add in clean or acoustic passages, play your drums with more nuance, add more instruments, and so on, but again - at some point you're leaving metal terrirtory and entering general rock music territory. Take Cynic's Focus for example - is it metal, is it jazz fusion with some metallic elements? It's certainly weird to think of it as a pure metal album.

Probably the most sophisticated metal is played by bands like Gorguts, Portal, where they take the format for granted, but deconstruct the conventional techniques of the genre and end up sounding like experimental rock or avant-garde music, yet somehow manage to still sound somewhat metal. But I don't really like that, it's turning complexity into an end in itself.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually Portal are probably my favorite contemporary metal band, I don't see their music like their looking for complexity in itself, I think they're looking for atmosphere with their chaotic sound (the influence of Lovecraft probably). 
I would say that more for certain technical stuff like the things made by Ron Jarzombek or certain Djent stuff. For instance Nick Llerandi is a guy who uses a lot of extended harmony even with distortion and he makes a lot of very complex stuff but his music to me is more what you were saying, it's like he's looking for complexity for the sake of complexity and it sounds academic and a bit dry more than sophisticated.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2018)

Boychev said:


> You might want to give some 80s and early 90s prog and tech metal a try. Obligatory mentions:
> 
> Fates Warning - The Spectre Within (1985)
> Fates Warning - Awaken the Guardian (1986)
> ...


I'd forgotten about Fates Warning. What a blast from the past. I still have the early Voivod albums. Unlike the ones you mention, there's nothing sophisticated about their first two albums :lol:


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Fates Warning is worth a try. They have that East Coast campy teenage intellectual thing that I find fun.


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