# Looking at the Duke Ellington quote: what is bad music?



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

"There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."-Duke Ellington. 

Lets not make this a hateful conversation against the avant garde or the 12 tone school, or minimalism. Across the board, what is good and what is bad? I know a great musician said this thing, but I'm not sure I can agree with it being that cut and dried. How can things be simply good and bad? And are we thinking more in terms of the written music, or the performances. For example: Salieri can sound great if played with as much enthusiasm as a Balkan wind band(maybe not quite that much), so there is certainly the aspect of performance that is nearly as important as the music itself. Medieval music that seems to have very basic rules sounds wonderful at the expert hands of David Munrow. Mozart can sound horrible if played poorly.

And combining these two elements if the written element exists, we have the music, so now what's good and bad? Isn't there some sort of continuum. This quote is strangely provocative in that it makes me feel just a little insecure about assuring quality to other people concerning different composers.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It's interesting what you say, but can you give us the context that Ellington said that in. Was it a part of a longer interview, or something he wrote in a book? I've read the quote before but I don't know the context. That would make a hell of a difference. & added to that, I am a NERD, I need to know EVERYTHING :lol:...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> It's interesting what you say, but can you give us the context that Ellington said that in. Was it a part of a longer interview, or something he wrote in a book? I've read the quote before but I don't know the context. That would make a hell of a difference. & added to that, I am a NERD, I need to know EVERYTHING :lol:...


You are smart! That's right, these things need to be put in context don't they. This could end up being a very short conversation.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah, well often these quotes are said on the fly by the musician/composer. Sometimes they're hearsay. That's what is thought of Schoenberg's quote to the effect that with serialism he'd guarantee the future supremacy of German music. He apparently said it to a conductor colleague, but we don't know if Schoenberg said it, or the conductor was kind of embellishing. These things have a tendency to become legend and maybe we see them as having more depth than they do. They can just be like smart things these guys say, I think Noel Coward did a lot of this, but he was kind of being whimsical. It's basically to make people think more than anything else, more than being a definitive statement about anything...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

You're right, "good" and "bad" are uselessly vague labels--so it would be an exercise in tedium to define them. I think Ellington's quote had more to do with petty stylistic politics and groupie mentality. "High" art vs. "low" art, this vs. that, etc.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I would say that there are two kinds of music: music I like, and the other kind. 

For me, most of the other kind is excessively sentimental, or excessively predictable, or in the worst case, both. Add cliche lyrics, and I'm likely to get ill. 

So to me "bad music" is a lot of the "I'm too stressed and I need to feel a little more numb" style of new age music, a lot of pop music, and most of all "Butterfly Kisses" - no, make that "My Heart Will Go On." Very hard for me to get through that. I can honestly say that I'm lucky never to have been in attendance at a Celine Dion concert with a slingshot, or I might have done hard time.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HERE is an example of Good(ies) music, THIS IS WHAT THE DUKE HAD IN MIND IN THAT QUOTE, EXACTLY...ok I'll take my Aramis crazy hat off now...I'm not as GOOD as him I know...


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

Most of us are going to agree with science - there's music we like and there's music we don't.
But i think musicologists can sometimes point different aspects of certain musical pieces as to why they MIGHT be considered bad - it can vary from the harmony to counterpoint, melody and many other things. In the end, the good/bad debate comes down to technical details in my opinion. But then again - it can't be entirely objective, as one might say for example that the usage of a specific harmony might be false and uninspiring while the other might be praising it, both arguments containing a fair amount of musical knowledge. And we return to the subjective point of view. 
To be fair, i've never read/heard/watched a true musical debate between great musicologists (but i'd like to), so the paragraph above is really just a guess of how it might go. 
In the end, music, as much science as you can find in it, still resonates with every person differently (apologies for the cliche phrasing), so i really doubt you can reach an absolute difference between good and bad music.


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

I could go on all day about which songs, compositions, composers or artists I like and disslike but I can basically say that most quality music in my opinion was made before 1970. Then from 1970-1989 some music was good some was bad. Then in 1990 a strange phenominon occured. Music disappeared from our culture completely. In 2011 instead of using instruments and voices computers do everything.


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## Festat (Oct 25, 2011)

TrazomGangflow said:


> I could go on all day about which songs, compositions, composers or artists I like and disslike but I can basically say that most quality music in my opinion was made before 1970. Then from 1970-1989 some music was good some was bad. Then in 1990 a strange phenominon occured. Music disappeared from our culture completely. In 2011 instead of using instruments and voices computers do everything.


 Isn't that some kind of tendency people have about missing good old days just because they're old days that won't come back? And probably what's still remembered and heard is exactly the particularly good stuff?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

TrazomGangflow said:


> ...but I can basically say that most quality music in my opinion was made before 1970...


That's literally what someone I knew ages ago, who was in their eighties at the time, said that good movies stopped being made in 1970. This person didn't watch any movies made after 1970, or avoided them. I assume you're not in your eighties, probably you're far from it, so why the jurassic attitude?...


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## Evelina (Sep 30, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I know a great musician said this thing, but I'm not sure I can agree with it being that cut and dried. How can things be simply good and bad?


True, and especially with classical music! It's tricky because classical music is not at all like modern pop music, most of which is rubbish and people can agree on it being rubbish. Even some people who sort of half-way _like_ modern pop music -- when it comes on the radio and reels you in against your better judgment because it's so stupidly catchy -- still admit that yes, much of pop music is rubbish.

But when it comes to classical, it's hard not to respect it all. Pop music is rubbish because it's simple, mindless, meaningless and it's been done to death. It has nothing original to say, no point to make. But classical music has meat to it.

I did hear one radio announcer call Boccherini (one of my favorites) a "vanilla composer," which made me laugh. That's how I tend to classify classical music: good and "vanilla." And there's nothing wrong with vanilla in classical, IMO!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Chrythes said:


> Most of us are going to agree with science


That'll be the day!

j/k friend


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Evelina said:


> ...
> 
> I did hear one radio announcer call Boccherini (one of my favorites) a "vanilla composer," which made me laugh. That's how I tend to classify classical music: good and "vanilla." And there's nothing wrong with vanilla in classical, IMO!


They also used to deride Boccherini as something like "Haydn's wife." Funny that, since it's not really accurate (eg. Boccherini being like watered down Haydn). For one thing, I've got a disc recorded here in Australia with Boccherini's_ Fandango_ guitar quintet & a rare guitar quartet by Haydn. Needless to say, the Haydn is interesting, but undoubtedly in this case the Boccherini is a much more stronger work in this genre, or sub-genre, hence it's foothold in the repertoire for the past few decades at least...


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## Evelina (Sep 30, 2011)

Sid James said:


> They also used to deride Boccherini as something like "Haydn's wife." Funny that, since it's not really accurate (eg. Boccherini being like watered down Haydn). For one thing, I've got a disc recorded here in Australia with Boccherini's_ Fandango_ guitar quintet & a rare guitar quartet by Haydn. Needless to say, the Haydn is interesting, but undoubtedly in this case the Boccherini is a much more stronger work in this genre, or sub-genre, hence it's foothold in the repertoire for the past few decades at least...


So true! Boccherini's work really stands alone when it comes to guitar. I do think people appreciate Boccherini's music -- as you've said it has a "foothold in the repertoire" -- but for some reason they maybe feel the need to reproach themselves a little bit for it. I do like Haydn's work but I find Boccherini's much more compelling in this genre, as you said!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Yes, there's often an element of listing and ranking things which I have little time for. I must emphasise that both those guitar chamber works are different in many ways (eg. on the recording I have, they are played on different types of guitars). But we have to call a spade a spade, Boccherini's guitar quintets & also string quintets were quite innovative & unique in many ways. The quote from Morton Feldman to the effect that the conservative versus radical labels for composers & their music are a false dichotomy has never been more truer than now...


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