# I Hate Beethoven



## aaroncopland

So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


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## Ingélou

No, can't help you, sorry. I love Beethoven!


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## bigshot

You get to ride the short bus to the concert hall this time.


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## aleazk

Uh, no. I love Beethoven too. And I find his orchestration wonderful.


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## Ravndal

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I only like his piano sonatas. So I wouldn't say that I hate him.


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## schuberkovich

I hate Aaron Copland.
Ooh :devil:


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## Mahlerian

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I hate people going on incessantly about how they hate this or that composer, I hate hypocrisy, and I hate Einaudi. 

Not Beethoven, though.


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## apricissimus

I feel like Beethoven speaks to me directly. I know there are a lot of people who feel like that, but I'm not claiming to be original. I feel like he's in the, oh, I don't know, top dozen superlative geniuses that humanity has produced.

Yeah, I love Beethoven.


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## Geo Dude

Which orchestral recordings of Beethoven have you been listening to? Performances make a difference.


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## SiegendesLicht

Better spend your hate on something more deserving of it (like rap). Beethoven wouldn't care anyway if someone somewhere hates him, as long as there are millions who love him.

Btw, I am going to _two _ Beethoven concerts over the next three weeks.


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## KenOC

Beethoven? Seems to be kind of controversial! I'll see if I can find some of his music and check it out.


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## Neo Romanza

I don't like Beethoven but I don't hate his music and I recognize his influence and hold on classical music. You're free to dislike the music all you want, but I think hate is such a strong word to use anyway. I do like several Beethoven works like his piano concerti and, although I'm not a great fan of SQs, I find his SQs rewarding, especially as they go up in numbers.


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## quack

You may hate Beethoven, but just look at him, he hates you far more.


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## Skilmarilion

Neo Romanza said:


> You're free to dislike the music all you want, but I think hate is such a strong word to use anyway.


Indeed! Whether he is to a person's taste or not, the great Ludwig deserves no such hatred.


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## KenOC

"WHAT? You don't like my music?"


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Anyone for Bach?

I'm not game to bring Varese into this conversation


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## TrevBus

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


Nope. Can't say you will find many who agree w/you. Each to his own though.


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## DavidH

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I used to feel the same way about some composers / works, but eventually I realized this was mostly due to bad performances. There's not a lot of music I truly dislike. Have you heard Beethoven's Kreutzer violin sonata? How about the 4th Piano Concerto? The Violin Concerto? Beethoven really wrote a lot of amazing music, you should not give up just yet!

One work that I really took a while to like was (surprisingly) the very famous 2nd Piano Sonata of Chopin. It turned out that I had heard mostly student performances of the work, which naturally tended to be rushed, poorly shaped, and so on. Once I heard the Rubinstein recording I suddenly realized what I was missing.


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## aaroncopland

Don't get me wrong. There is genius to his work. But when I listen to a lot of his stuff I don't like how it sounds. There's this emptiness to it which is just hard to listen too. I've been to live performances of Beethoven and have performed it myself, but it doesn't matter if I sit down and listen to a live performance or just power through a playlist of Beethoven stuff. After doing that, I also start to feel like his massive amount of counterpoint is what creates that hole in the music. I don't know, I love every composer around him, but I just can't stand listening to anything but the last 100 measures of his 9th.


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## maestro57

Oh no! This is the worst thread ever (because I'm the biggest Beethoven fan)  I'm sensing the end of the world is drawing nearer.


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## Stargazer

Not even his piano sonatas? Not even a little bit?!


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## Weston

I can't complain about someone hating Beethoven when I dislike a lot of Mozart myself. On the other hand, late Mozart works really are sublime. I see, or hear, that now. Possibly the OP just needs time. I'll not force Beethoven or any other music on anyone. That never works.


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## aleazk

What problems do you see in the orchestration of, for example, this?: 




Personally, I find the section starting at 4:00 (to roughly 4:50) very interesting in terms of orchestration.
There you have first all the different woodwinds and bass strings (pizzicato). Then the timpani. Then the treble strings (arco). Then the trumpet. Then treble strings (arco) and horn. Then treble strings (pizzicato) and woodwinds. Etc. 
I find that section masterfully done in terms of orchestration. And Bernstein does a great job, it's very clear.
At 10:38 you have the same section filmed from other angles.


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## oogabooha

You probably don't "hate" him, calm down and stop trying to be edgy. You probably have a strong dislike for him and how he is overhyped, but whenever people say "I hate *insert extremely popular composer here*" I have a tendency to roll my eyes (in regards to both modern and older composers), because there's a large chance that you hate a lot of similar composers as well (or even an entire time period), but you maintain the opinion to run off of shock value (no other reason for you to make a thread like this on a classical forum that doesn't provide valid criticism, etc.)


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## chalkpie

Hate? That is a strong word, especially for a genius like Beethoven. It's one thing to hate some stupid overpaid sports jock, but as a classical music fan to hate a legend like Beethoven? Sorry, but that's a little bizarre.


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## Vaneyes

I wish Copland had stayed with his original course, but all's fair in love and war.


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## Marisol

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I think it is not common.

It is a continuum, at the far end there are people who believe that whatever their favorite composer touches turns into gold, then there are those who generally like a composer going all the way to gradually becoming indifferent to their work.

But hating?

I suppose you are not forced to listen to his music right? 
Hating is a strong emotional attachment, so perhaps his music has an important psychological function for you, perhaps you simply cannot let go of Beethoven.


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## violadude

I can sympathize a little bit with people that are having a hard time liking Beethoven, though hate IS too strong of a word I feel. I am not fond of some of his very famous pieces myself (Symphony 5 being one of them). I find myself gravitating much more towards the late piano sonatas and string quartets and the middle period pieces that focus less on Beethoven's stormy aspects (The violin concerto, 6th symphony, even though there is literally a "storm" movement).


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## Huilunsoittaja

aaroncopland said:


> Don't get me wrong. There is genius to his work. But when I listen to a lot of his stuff I don't like how it sounds. There's this emptiness to it which is just hard to listen too. I've been to live performances of Beethoven and have performed it myself, but it doesn't matter if I sit down and listen to a live performance or just power through a playlist of Beethoven stuff. After doing that, I also start to feel like his massive amount of counterpoint is what creates that hole in the music. I don't know, I love every composer around him, but I just can't stand listening to anything but the last 100 measures of his 9th.


You are a brave soul.

Most people around here have a hard time hearing the word "hate." I too would avoid that word as often as you can, because it is rather extreme. But rather than push you aside with a "nope, I don't agree with you," I DO agree! I don't hate Beethoven, but I get pretty close to that sometimes. I get pretty frustrated sometimes when people don't understand what I see wrong with him, but being a minority here is the nature of the game. I'm anti-conformist by nature, so I stand up for minor composers as being of equal value as major ones. The thing is, Beethoven is so untouchable and "beyond criticism" that people rarely have devil's advocate discussions about Beethoven.

This is the honest truth: If you said you hated Edward Elgar, Mikhail Glinka, Carl Maria Von Weber, or someone other composer of lower stature than Beethoven, people here are less likely to tease you.

I'd like to ask, can you name some particular works that you don't like by Beethoven? What have you heard live/performed?

And then I'd like to ask, what kind of music _do _you like?


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## Turangalîla

Why are we even discussing this? Beethoven was a genius! :lol:


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## oogabooha

Like I said, I can't take the "EVERYBODY likes Beethoven, he was obviously a genius to most people and that means everyone!" people seriously in the same way that I can't take somebody who posts "I hate Beethoven! He was just _bad_!" with no actual descriptive reasons on a classical forum seriously...and this thread has both of them. If you want to argue as to why Beethoven's orchestration is bad, i'm all ears, but I think both sides should stop speaking in absolutes so we can have an actual discussion.


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## Huilunsoittaja

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Why are we even discussing this? Beethoven was a genius! :lol:


Genius-ity is not congruent with likeability.

If that were so, everyone would love Glazunov SHEESSHHH

:tiphat:


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## apricissimus

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You are a brave soul.
> 
> Most people around here have a hard time hearing the word "hate." I too would avoid that word as often as you can, because it is rather extreme. But rather than push you aside with a "nope, I don't agree with you," I DO agree! I don't hate Beethoven, but I get pretty close to that sometimes. I get pretty frustrated sometimes when people don't understand what I see wrong with him, but being a minority here is the nature of the game. I'm anti-conformist by nature, so I stand up for minor composers as being of equal value as major ones. The thing is, Beethoven is so untouchable and "beyond criticism" that people rarely have devil's advocate discussions about Beethoven.
> 
> This is the honest truth: If you said you hated Edward Elgar, Mikhail Glinka, Carl Maria Von Weber, or someone other composer of lower stature than Beethoven, people here are less likely to tease you.
> 
> I'd like to ask, can you name some particular works that you don't like by Beethoven? What have you heard live/performed?
> 
> And then I'd like to ask, what kind of music _do _you like?


It could just be that people really do like Beethoven a lot. Can you say that they are wrong?


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## Ondine

To hate is not very wise. But anyway, I think I understand the feeling. Maybe it is an intense statement and just that. Personally, I like the early and some of the middle Beethoven but definitely he is not in my list of favourite or meaningful musicians. For example, I prefer by far Keith Jarret's Solo Piano Concerts than Beethoven's piano sonatas. And yes, I know many people will disagree with this.


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## KenOC

Ondine said:


> For example, I prefer by far Keith Jarret's Solo Piano Concerts than Beethoven's piano sonatas. And yes, I know many people will disagree with this.


How can anybody disagree with a statement of preference? That's a fact, not an opinion.


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## Geo Dude

aaroncopland said:


> Don't get me wrong. There is genius to his work. But when I listen to a lot of his stuff I don't like how it sounds. There's this emptiness to it which is just hard to listen too. I've been to live performances of Beethoven and have performed it myself, but it doesn't matter if I sit down and listen to a live performance or just power through a playlist of Beethoven stuff. After doing that, I also start to feel like his massive amount of counterpoint is what creates that hole in the music. I don't know, I love every composer around him, but I just can't stand listening to anything but the last 100 measures of his 9th.


Thank you for confirming that you have experience playing his music and listening to it live; it's good for people to hear that for your sake if nothing else. I am honestly curious about which recordings you've heard, though. 



oogabooha said:


> Like I said, I can't take the "EVERYBODY likes Beethoven, he was obviously a genius to most people and that means everyone!" people seriously in the same way that I can't take somebody who posts "I hate Beethoven! He was just _bad_!" with no actual descriptive reasons on a classical forum seriously...and this thread has both of them. If you want to argue as to why Beethoven's orchestration is bad, i'm all ears, but I think both sides should stop speaking in absolutes so we can have an actual discussion.


Hear, hear!


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## Arsakes

@aaroncopland


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## aaroncopland

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You are a brave soul.
> 
> Most people around here have a hard time hearing the word "hate." I too would avoid that word as often as you can, because it is rather extreme. But rather than push you aside with a "nope, I don't agree with you," I DO agree! I don't hate Beethoven, but I get pretty close to that sometimes. I get pretty frustrated sometimes when people don't understand what I see wrong with him, but being a minority here is the nature of the game. I'm anti-conformist by nature, so I stand up for minor composers as being of equal value as major ones. The thing is, Beethoven is so untouchable and "beyond criticism" that people rarely have devil's advocate discussions about Beethoven.
> 
> This is the honest truth: If you said you hated Edward Elgar, Mikhail Glinka, Carl Maria Von Weber, or someone other composer of lower stature than Beethoven, people here are less likely to tease you.
> 
> I'd like to ask, can you name some particular works that you don't like by Beethoven? What have you heard live/performed?
> 
> And then I'd like to ask, what kind of music _do _you like?


_*Disclaimer:was written in a calm state. Do not confuse yelling with speaking in a calm tone.*_
Honestly, I love everything except for baroque (aside from Bach because everything of his is great as long as you take out harpsichord), Beethoven, and then most 12 tone music. I love Brahms with a passion, and I have recently come to love Mozart, since there is no one else that can voice a minor chord and really make it rip out your heart and then stomp on it over and over again. I love Debussy because his music is so colorful and enjoyable. I love Tchaikovsky for its raw emotion. I love Strauss for his story telling. And I come back to Brahms since he is one of the greatest orchestrators of all time. Very few have ever been able to mix instruments with so much breadth between the bass and soprano voices but still maintain the simplicity of a chord.

Like I said before, Beethoven lacks this. His whole 9th symphony lacks a certain tone color to it. There's so much counterpoint going on he misses the actual establishment of a chord. Personally my ears don't hear the chords but only hear lots off lines doing different things at a speed that just doesn't fit. And I don't like how he voices chords either.

Now I know there's something wrong with me. I'm one out of a thousand that probably hate Beethoven. But I can't stand most off his stuff. Unless its just piano and he doesn't use 1500 cadences that all sound like they should be the final of the movement, I can't stand it. I literally have gotten angry in my seat listening to one of his cello sonatas.

So there is some criticism for everyone, and also now you know I like everyone from the mid to late 18th century to present, minus a few 12 tone composers.


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## Mahlerian

"Honestly, I love everything except for baroque (aside from Bach because everything of his is great as long as you take out harpsichord), Beethoven, and then most 12 tone music."

Okay, so how about these?














None of the above are Beethoven, 12-tone, or harpsichord-containing. I suppose you love all of them?

No?

Well, why does it matter? There's a lot of music out there. Some of it you'll enjoy, some you won't. Don't worry if your perceptions line up with others' or not.


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## KenOC

aaroncopland said:


> I literally have gotten angry in my seat listening to one of his cello sonatas.


Fair enough, but I think you may be unique in this regard! :lol:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

aaroncopland said:


> I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies


For the most part I don't either. Beethoven, I don't think, is the best composer to learn orchestration from. What he did best was create a catchy little motif and develop it over a long period of time. I think even CPE Bach has written more interesting things in regard to the actual orchestration in a piece of music.


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## clavichorder

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I used to think Beethoven was a faker compared to Mozart. He had his own thing that I have grown to genuinely enjoy.


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## Crudblud

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


LOL HOW CAN U H8 BEEFOVENS HE WAS AND GENIOUSSSS XDDDDDD LOL U MUST BE RETARDED

But seriously, although I don't hate Beethoven I welcome the difference of opinion. Unfortunately, as you can see, you'll not get the same response from others, the most egregious of whom (you know who you are) will resort to thinly veiled ad hominem one-liners so that they can pat each other on the back for defending poor ol' Ludwig against the mean upstart. We had a Bach thread recently which, although not openly negative (the OP was admittedly a fan of Bach) garnered similarly self-satisfied responses from those same few people who on that occasion didn't even read the thread. There is a growing contingent of people who want to treat this place like a musical/intellectual retirement home where they can feel safe in knowing that nothing ever challenges their opinions, in the event that anything from John Cage to someone who isn't so keen on Mozart shows up the walking sticks are readied and the intruder is promptly beaten to death:

"He won't be causing any more trouble with that _thinking_ shtick, Mildred!"​
After which they can all sit around agreeing that the blood spatter has changed the pattern on the wallpaper and that this is a bad thing. If we are lucky enough to have a conversation it is either on a subject so vague that no one can really talk about it, something that no one feels too strongly about, or something that everyone agrees on so that the group onanism can take hold once again. So, on behalf of my less courteous fellows, I apologise. We're not all bad, as some other posts from more reasonable members have hopefully shown, and I hope you are not put off continuing to post here.


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## DavidA

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> For the most part I don't either. Beethoven, I don't think, is the best composer to learn orchestration from. What he did best was create a catchy little motif and develop it over a long period of time. I think even CPE Bach has written more interesting things in regard to the actual orchestration in a piece of music.


Oh come on! That was the method of the classical composers. Just Beethoven did it with sheer genius.


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## Guest

aaroncopland said:


> Don't get me wrong. There is genius to his work. But when I listen to a lot of his stuff I don't like how it sounds. There's this emptiness to it which is just hard to listen too. I've been to live performances of Beethoven and have performed it myself, but it doesn't matter if I sit down and listen to a live performance or just power through a playlist of Beethoven stuff. After doing that, I also start to feel like his massive amount of counterpoint is what creates that hole in the music. I don't know, I love every composer around him, but I just can't stand listening to anything but the last 100 measures of his 9th.


There have been several threads about Beethoven since I've been a member (doubtless hundreds prior to that time) and I don't recall complaints about too _much _counterpoint. If anything, what is usually observed is that there is too little, or too little of the refined quality of such as Bach.

I wonder whether you're wishing to be merely confessional ("I can't help it...I should like him, I know...but...but"), rhetorical ("So, why. Why do I hate Beethoven?") or provocative ("So there, all you Ludwig-lovers!") or....?

And yet you acknowledge "there is genius".

There've been several inconclusive threads on that notion too - what is it about his work that you think is 'genius'?


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## Cheyenne

Well I regularly hear people laugh at the very mention of him, so somebody disliking him while actually having heard and played his music is basically a step up :lol:


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## Turangalîla

Mahlerian said:


> "Honestly, I love everything except for baroque (aside from Bach because everything of his is great as long as you take out harpsichord), Beethoven, and then most 12 tone music."
> 
> Okay, so how about these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above are Beethoven, 12-tone, or harpsichord-containing. I suppose you love all of them?
> 
> No?
> 
> Well, why does it matter? There's a lot of music out there. Some of it you'll enjoy, some you won't. Don't worry if your perceptions line up with others' or not.


But these are all wonderful! Especially the last one. What is with all the negativity around here? :lol:


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## chrisco97

I had to turn on some Beethoven just to calm myself down from reading this. :lol:


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## elgar's ghost

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I wouldn't worry about it - for instance, I like operetta but Sullivan leaves me cold. Everyone has their blind spot. Because Beethoven is almost universally loved within the classical community I think the only unusual aspect is whose music you don't like rather than why you don't like it.


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## PetrB

I would get permanently banned from TC if I reported, verbatim, what Luigi had to say about you!


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## Kieran

It's refreshing to read somebody hating Beethoven. Gives us Mozarteans some respite before the next 'Gangerl-bashing thread.

Carry on! :tiphat:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DavidA said:


> Oh come on! That was the method of the classical composers. Just Beethoven did it with sheer genius.


References please?


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## mtmailey

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


Iguess that means you are alone here.


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## moody

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Genius-ity is not congruent with likeability.
> 
> If that were so, everyone would love Glazunov SHEESSHHH
> 
> :tiphat:


You've been suffering from this unfortunate condition for ages...mind you,I don't HATE him he's OK !


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## moody

Ondine said:


> To hate is not very wise. But anyway, I think I understand the feeling. Maybe it is an intense statement and just that. Personally, I like the early and some of the middle Beethoven but definitely he is not in my list of favourite or meaningful musicians. For example, I prefer by far Keith Jarret's Solo Piano Concerts than Beethoven's piano sonatas. And yes, I know many people will disagree with this.


Well,you are very perceptive at least !


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## moody

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Anyone for Bach?
> 
> I'm not game to bring Varese into this conversation


Out you go and don't come back 'til I tell you !!


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## Mesa

Only one of hooves withered and cloven
could engage in such lascivious Heethoven.


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## Yardrax

This is my contribution to the people talking about Beethoven's orchestration.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> I would get permanently banned from TC if I reported, verbatim, what Luigi had to say about you!


Was it worse than his response to another critic? "O du elender Schuft! Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!"


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## DavidA

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> References please?


A point made by the composer and musicologist Howard Goodall in his History of Music. What I have given is, of course, a simplistic generalisation of the various pints he made about the classical method.


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## Huilunsoittaja

aaroncopland said:


> _*
> Honestly, I love everything except for baroque (aside from Bach because everything of his is great as long as you take out harpsichord), Beethoven, and then most 12 tone music. I love Brahms with a passion, and I have recently come to love Mozart, since there is no one else that can voice a minor chord and really make it rip out your heart and then stomp on it over and over again. I love Debussy because his music is so colorful and enjoyable. I love Tchaikovsky for its raw emotion. I love Strauss for his story telling. And I come back to Brahms since he is one of the greatest orchestrators of all time. Very few have ever been able to mix instruments with so much breadth between the bass and soprano voices but still maintain the simplicity of a chord.
> *_


_*

Many of the composers you just named are known for a strong sense of melody. As I recently learned in Music History class, Mozart was in the "Italian" vein of melodists, unlike Beethoven. The Italian composing school was known for more lyrical, smooth melodies, easy to grasp, easy to remember. Also, Tchaikovsky and Strauss are overtly emotional while being strongly melodic, and that clearly gets across to the audience. Brahms also was a great melodist, although he put a lot of effort into formula and development of ideas, particularly in his chamber music. It's likely that you prefer melody over formula and counterpoint, something that Baroque composers tended to do over melody. The Classical era was a sort of reaction to all that "heady" music.

In other words, you are a person much like myself. 

However, I do enjoy Baroque music for its sensibility and order, also the chord progressions, if not melody. It may bore me often, but certain things really get to me in an intellectual way, which becomes emotional. 12-tone music is something I've been acquainted with enough to know I don't intrinsically like it, but it may grow on me in years to come. The theory is quite fascinating, though I always found it something that looked nicer on paper than in the ear.

It's our similarities in aesthetic values that draw us to similar conclusions. These values weren't necessarily taught to us, it just came with our existence. For example, overall, I have trouble with the early Romantics for some reason, not just Beethoven. The quasi-classical style mixed in with romantic style doesn't quite please me, I just like one or the other. I really do like works by Schubert, Schumann and Mendelssohn enough to put them on my favorite composers list, but certain things continue to displease me. Perhaps they were overly influenced by Beethoven, being the generation directly after him? I heard a Beethoven overture the other day that I almost swore was Schumann, when suddenly there was something strange in the melody, and my Beethoven flag went up. Where did the lovely Schumann lyricism go, and this weird thing that replaced it? I surmised that Schumann simply took the lyricism out of Beethoven, but didn't keep that other trait that displeased me so instantly.*_


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## schuberkovich

DavidA said:


> A point made by the composer and musicologist Howard Goodall in his History of Music. What I have given is, of course, a simplistic generalisation of the various pints he made about the classical method.


That was a terrible series


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## Guest

schuberkovich said:


> That was a terrible series


IYO maybe, but not IMO! I found it very informative.


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## Yardrax

Huilunsoittaja said:


> formula and development of ideas


'Form' isn't a shorthand for formula. But I think your post is interesting in terms of setting out a clear aesthetic framework from which Beethoven could be seen to be less than perfect as a musician. Personally though, I can't sympathise at all. The spiky, angular and less lyrical sections are as enthralling as any Schubertian melody you care to name.

And I couldn't bring myself to watch the Howard Goodall series to the end, his discussion of modern developments was excruciatingly painful to watch.


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## IBMchicago

It honestly took me a while to like Beethoven. As most of my listening is limited to Bach and Mozart, I find Beethoven's music to be more awkward in comparison. However, the more I listen, the more I find this perceived "awkwardness" to be Beethoven's most endearing trait. I have come to appreciate the fact that composition did not come so easily to him and his unique experimental/incremental creative process is fascinating to behold. He may not be my favorite, but that he earns the title of "genius" is, to me, indisputable.


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## moody

DavidA said:


> A point made by the composer and musicologist Howard Goodall in his History of Music. What I have given is, of course, a simplistic generalisation of the various pints he made about the classical method.


It was those pints that caused half the trouble.


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## Guest

IBMchicago said:


> I have come to appreciate the fact that composition did not come so easily to him


I've seen this said quite often. I suppose that if it 'came easily', he might have knocked off 40+ like WAM, or 100+ like JH: but given the results of his labours, I'd more readily go with 'laboured' than 'easy'.


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## KenOC

MacLeod said:


> I've seen this said quite often. I suppose that if it 'came easily', he might have knocked off 40+ like WAM, or 100+ like JH: but given the results of his labours, I'd more readily go with 'laboured' than 'easy'.


To me, Beethoven always seems to be struggling, even in his more lyrical works -- struggling with the instruments, the harmonies, the rhythms, the counterpoint... But he always wins!


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## IBMchicago

MacLeod said:


> I've seen this said quite often. I suppose that if it 'came easily', he might have knocked off 40+ like WAM, or 100+ like JH: but given the results of his labours, I'd more readily go with 'laboured' than 'easy'.


In a sense, yes. I think Beethoven labored over his music in a similar way that Mozart labored over the Haydn Quartets and his final 3 symphonies as he tried to master motivic development. In all cases (and to paraphrase KenOC), I sense a hard-won struggle.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> To me, Beethoven always seems to be struggling, even in his more lyrical works -- struggling with the instruments, the harmonies, the rhythms, the counterpoint... But he always wins!


Oh Ken, that seems a bit like 'received opinion' to me. One could say the same of so many others, no?


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## trazom

IBMchicago said:


> In a sense, yes. I think Beethoven labored over his music in a similar way that Mozart labored over the Haydn Quartets and his final 3 symphonies as he tried to master motivic development. In all cases (and to paraphrase KenOC), I sense a hard-won struggle.


Where's the struggle in Mozart's last three symphonies? I read about a struggle over the Prague symphony, but the last three were written in 6 weeks, about two for each symphony.

I also completely disagree that the amount of time spent on a piece is positively correlated with its greatness. Beethoven 'struggled' over Fidelio, but it's hardly considered an overwhelming success.


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## KenOC

trazom said:


> I also completely disagree that the amount of time spent on a piece is positively correlated with its greatness. Beethoven 'struggled' over Fidelio, but it's hardly considered an overwhelming success.


Actually he struggled three times! But not a success? It's by far the finest opera he ever wrote!


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## violadude

"Tchaikovsky and Strauss are overtly emotional while being strongly melodic"

Strauss is considered melodic? I hadn't realized this.


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## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> Strauss is considered melodic? I hadn't realized this.


Lyrical perhaps (he does write well for the voice), but I agree, not "melodic" in the normal sense.


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## aleazk

Yardrax said:


> This is my contribution to the people talking about Beethoven's orchestration.


I agree with that video. Bernstein's attitude is just idiotic. Only a snob can say that one the greatest composers of all times was a failure in every musical aspect!. I really can't stand that attitude of bashing someone just because is popular or famous in order to sound cool or being "above" the multitude. I mean, of course you are free to not like whatever you want, but if you are going to criticize technical things, you better have good arguments...
I personally love the 5th and 9th symphonies. As well as I love the late string quartets, piano sonatas, and other "obscure" works from him.


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## KenOC

aleazk said:


> I agree with that video. Bernstein's attitude is just idiotic.


Some years later Bernstein published his remarks from that video. He toned them down considerably!


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## superhorn

Actually, Beethoven doesn't care whether you like his music or not . He's a tough dude and can take it .
His reputation is long establshed, and you dislike won't hurt him .


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## Meaghan

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


Okay, so I did not read the whole thread (or even beyond the first page), and I freely admit that it is just because I'm lazy and didn't want to read it all, so I'm probably going to say stuff that people have already said but -

1. If you're talking about the never-ending series of cadences you'll find in some Beethoven codas (see Sym. 5 for the most hilarious example), I can understand why somebody might not like those. I think they're a little silly, but I like them anyway because they make me laugh, whether or not that was the composer's intent. He doesn't do that so much in his solo music, so if you feel like giving him another shot, you might try a couple piano sonatas.

2. It'd be a little goofy to say Beethoven was a bad composer. He was good at what he did - he achieved his intentions with the music he wrote and he created a product that a lot of people love. _But_ - you're not _saying_ that Beethoven was a bad composer. You're saying you don't like him, and that's totally fine. I love Beethoven. You have every right to _hate_ Beethoven for all I care, and for all anyone else should care.


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## neoshredder

I love Beethoven. I admit it. I wish I was him. I'll hold back my feelings for this thread.


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## KenOC

Meaghan said:


> If you're talking about the never-ending series of cadences you'll find in some Beethoven codas (see Sym. 5 for the most hilarious example), I can understand why somebody might not like those.


I keep seeing this and frankly don't understand it. The only thing wrong with the final coda in LvB's 5th is that it's too short!


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## GodNickSatan

superhorn said:


> Actually, Beethoven doesn't care whether you like his music or not . He's a tough dude and can take it .
> His reputation is long establshed, and you dislike won't hurt him .


Plus he's dead.


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## Perotin

When I hear somebody saying this, I reach for my gun. :lol:


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## jeanmarc

You're deaf if you hate Beethoven, which should actually make you like him more.


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## anshuman

Well i dont have Gobbelsian sentiments about Beethoven. In my case the love of Beethoven came not already from a presumption that i'm listening to the greatest musician of the western world. It was 9:45 in my small town and i was fiddling with my radio to get the BBC world service frequency in order to listen to a classical music programme called Music with Matthew. But instead of Matthew's booming voice i heard a wonderful medley mostly wind instruments. Then the announcement that it was the septet by Beethoven. He was no household name for me as some Indian musicians like Ali Akbar or Ravi Shankar. I was hooked and the greatest journey of my life had begun - sailing through the sea of life which Beethoven's music represents for me.


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## Kleinzeit

Perotin said:


> When I hear somebody saying this, I reach for my gun. :lol:











When I hear the word Culture I reach for my chequebook!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

KenOC said:


> Some years later Bernstein published his remarks from that video. He toned them down considerably!


Was he off the juice.................


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## Ingélou

neoshredder said:


> I love Beethoven. I admit it. I wish I was him.


I wish I was *he*. Oh ... no, I don't.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Ingenue said:


> I wish I was *he*. Oh ... no, I don't.


There you go again correcting grammar - and almost becoming a he!

Heres something that I don't think was aimed at Beethoven but almost could be and is titled "I wish I was him"


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## apricissimus

Ingenue said:


> I wish I was *he*. Oh ... no, I don't.


I wish I _were_ he.

(subjunctive with a wish contrary to fact)


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## starry

neoshredder said:


> I love Beethoven. I admit it. I wish I was him. I'll hold back my feelings for this thread.


He had a difficult life, maybe you can wish you wrote the music but without the problems he had.


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## Ebab

"Hate"? You think you've heard controversial but here it comes. Beethoven does not invoke any strong emotions in me, at all.

I think I've heard my share - symphonies, Fidelio, concerts, chamber music, and I've enjoyed most of them - but regrettably, none of these works has ever made me feel like "Yes! This is it!". I'm not remotely musically trained as to put my finger on an aspect like "orchestration", and not even my intuition gives me a clue here.

Quite possibly my own loss, I know! Maybe I'll find the key one day, and if not - there's only so much to be able to _really_ absorb in a lifetime (and I'm particularly slow, too). My plate is more than full already, so maybe, it's a good thing.


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## neoshredder

starry said:


> He had a difficult life, maybe you can wish you wrote the music but without the problems he had.


Well life isn't supposed to be easy.


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## Guest

neoshredder said:


> Well life isn't supposed to be easy.


Life isn't "supposed" to be anything...but that's thread drift and to be avoided!


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## Ingélou

It seems a bit unproductive, hating Beethoven. Like hating the rain or the wind. He's a force of nature.


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## neoshredder

MacLeod said:


> Life isn't "supposed" to be anything...but that's thread drift and to be avoided!


I'm having trouble liking this post based on history.


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## starry

neoshredder said:


> Well life isn't supposed to be easy.


No, but it's definitely easier for some than others.


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## IBMchicago

trazom said:


> Where's the struggle in Mozart's last three symphonies? I read about a struggle over the Prague symphony, but the last three were written in 6 weeks, about two for each symphony.
> 
> I also completely disagree that the amount of time spent on a piece is positively correlated with its greatness. Beethoven 'struggled' over Fidelio, but it's hardly considered an overwhelming success.


I agree that it's up for debate, but Mozart (being theater person at heart) is said to have had a bit of a "struggle" with motivic development. The last 3 (and there is no solid evidence of them ever being commissioned) may have been when he decided to fully conquer this supposed weakness -- and he did indeed, demonstrating complete mastery. Just for reference (and, perhaps, not a very good one) Linz only took 4 days, so 2 weeks is a bit of time for WAM.

Beethoven struggled with most of his pieces -- the good ones stayed, the not-so-good were tossed out or left unfinished.


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## Cheyenne

IBMchicago said:


> Linz only took 4 days, so 2 weeks is a bit of time for WAM.


Wasn't Mahler's symphony no. 8 written in a single day? An interesting topic.


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## KenOC

Cheyenne said:


> Wasn't Mahler's symphony no. 8 written in a single day? An interesting topic.


Bach wrote the St Matthew Passion in 2 hours 27 minutes, narrowly missing out on the finals of the Shostakovich Cup.


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## Art Rock

Cheyenne said:


> Wasn't Mahler's symphony no. 8 written in a single day? An interesting topic.


Not according to what I remember reading in the past, and Wikipedia backs me up:

"Mahler arrived at Maiernigg in June 1906 <snip> Mahler's recollection, however, is that on the first day of the vacation he was seized by the creative spirit, and plunged immediately into composition of the work that would become his Eighth Symphony. <snip> The work was written at a frantic pace-"in record time", according to musicologist Henry-Louis de La Grange. It was completed in all its essentials by mid-August."


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## Cheyenne

Art Rock said:


> Not according to what I remember reading in the past, and Wikipedia backs me up:
> 
> "Mahler arrived at Maiernigg in June 1906 <snip> Mahler's recollection, however, is that on the first day of the vacation he was seized by the creative spirit, and plunged immediately into composition of the work that would become his Eighth Symphony. <snip> The work was written at a frantic pace-"in record time", according to musicologist Henry-Louis de La Grange. It was completed in all its essentials by mid-August."


Ah, thanks. Someone told me the story, maybe I misunderstood.


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## DavidA

neoshredder said:


> I love Beethoven. I admit it. I wish I was him. I'll hold back my feelings for this thread.


Having read his life story I would have hated to be him. I would also not have wanted to be a friend or relative of his, at least while he was alive. He misused so many people.

The music however - that is a different matter. Tremendous! A force of nature. The greatest? Right up there. Anyone who doesn't like it? That is your misfortune, I'm afraid.

One can sum up Beethoven as a highly successful composer and a highly unsuccessful human being. Mind you, quite a few of them were like that.


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## Mahlerian

Cheyenne said:


> Wasn't Mahler's symphony no. 8 written in a single day? An interesting topic.


It was sketched out quickly, but it took two summers to complete in its entirety, and the orchestration continued to change through rehearsals in Fall of 1910 (when, according to some, Mahler was despairing about everything...it just isn't true).


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## lostid

I hate Beethoven's rock & roll music.


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## Ryan

No you don't hate him, you dislike him.


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## starry

Ryan said:


> No you don't hate him, you dislike him.


Or more accurately dislike his music.


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## PrimoUomo

_I_ hate Beethoven.

1. Because many says he is greater than Mozart. HE IS NOT GREATER THAN MOZART!
2. All his music makes me think of bad weather (I don't know why).
3 He looks always angry on his portraits.


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## Ingélou

You make some good points, PrimoUomo, but there's another way of looking at it: 

I love Beethoven.

1. Because whether he is greater than Mozart is a matter for tempestuous debate.
2. All his music makes me think of exciting weather.
3. He always looks passionate on his portraits.


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## Kieran

Beethoven is different to Mozart. If anyone thinks he's better than Mozart, then maybe he is better - for them.

His music is passionate and committed.

He looks impatient to be somewhere else in his portraits...


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## Mahlerian

Kieran said:


> He looks impatient to be somewhere else in his portraits...


If you had to sit around for hours at a time, wouldn't you be impatient?


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## LordBlackudder

his music reaches perfection and than blasts to pieces the meaning of the word perfect.


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## Bix

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do. I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement in over, and its not. Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I read that he was a cantankerous git at times but I ask, is that true since you've clearly met him?


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## playpiano

i do understand what your saying but i suppose that's one of the things that has made his music so popular


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Personally I think Beethoven is a bit overrated. I do like his symphonies, but I dislike the fortissimos, with which he drowns all the other instruments and which are unpleasant to hear. They don't add to the content of his symphonies, in my opinion. He had some very good melodic ideas, I'm not going to dispute that, and his orchestration is masterful. I think that his 'rating' in comparison to J. Haydn is way out of balance though.


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## millionrainbows

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do.


That's like a kid saying "I don't like vegetables." Okay, whatever...you hate tomatoes, but you love ketchup. Okay, whatever...but your teeth are gonna fall out, and you're gonna get colon cancer.



aaroncopland said:


> I just don't like his orchestration in his symphonies...


That sounds like me & Brahms! I can relate...



aaroncopland said:


> ...and in his chamber music I hate how often he uses cadences and just teases you into thinking the that the movement is over, and its not.


Try the music of India. There's no sneaky modulation in that.



aaroncopland said:


> Does anyone else feel like this because I haven't found anyone else so far.


I'm probably the closest thing you'll find, with my views on Brahms. Actually, I'm a very "picky eater." I consider a lot of classical music to be uninteresting harmonically, so I look for other elements to latch on to, like the sonics of the recording, etc.


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## Bix

millionrainbows said:


> That's like a kid saying "I don't like vegetables." Okay, whatever...you hate tomatoes, but you love ketchup. Okay, whatever...but your teeth are gonna fall out, and you're gonna get colon cancer.


Hello the ducky, how be thee?


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## millionrainbows

Bix said:


> Hello the ducky, how be thee?


Bix, you can call me ducky-poo! ~giggle!~


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## Kieran

How'd ya escape? Bribe the tea lady or did someone smuggle in a file in a donut?


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## millionrainbows

Kieran said:


> How'd ya escape? Bribe the tea lady or did someone smuggle in a file in a donut?


I'm very lucky...I ran crying into the arms of my mother, something I have echoed again and again in all my relationships with women. BTW, Jesus is a yellow ceramic TV light/ivy planter.


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## Kieran

Ah, the old sob story, works every time. Good to have ya back!


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## Novelette

Ingenue said:


> You make some good points, PrimoUomo, but there's another way of looking at it:
> 
> I love Beethoven.
> 
> 1. Because whether he is greater than Mozart is a matter for tempestuous debate.
> 2. All his music makes me think of *exciting weather*.
> 3. He always looks passionate on his portraits.


I like that. "Exciting weather" seems fitting!


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## millionrainbows

Beethoven doesn't seem like a good example of "hate-able" music. Compared to angry, aggressive-sounding rap, there is nothing really overtly offensive, viscerally speaking. That's like being in a rap connoisseur's forum and saying "I hate Jay-Z" while all around you, a similar world of rap is accepted. It don't make sense, in context, you know what I mean? It just don't pan out.

BTW, I like the "exciting weather" analogy as well. I'll be using that one.


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## Celloman

I'm a composer. So of course, I "hate" Beethoven. I hate him for writing so much great music when I can't!


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## Cosmos

BLASPHEMY!!!

But in all seriousness, no I don't agree with you. But hey, you don't have to like him, it's your own personal preference. I don't like Mozart. To each his own.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

KenOC said:


> Bach wrote the St Matthew Passion in 2 hours 27 minutes, narrowly missing out on the finals of the Shostakovich Cup.


he didn't fudge things up, he fugued 'em up!


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## mtmailey

millionrainbows said:


> Beethoven doesn't seem like a good example of "hate-able" music. Compared to angry, aggressive-sounding rap, there is nothing really overtly offensive, viscerally speaking. That's like being in a rap connoisseur's forum and saying "I hate Jay-Z" while all around you, a similar world of rap is accepted. It don't make sense, in context, you know what I mean? It just don't pan out.
> I agree with his here.


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## millionrainbows

I hate Beethoven! That cruel SOB! He was just using me! And yet, when I think of him laying there, so vulnerable, twirling his lock of hair, gazing at me adoringly...then, slap! Get back on your hands and knees! Oh, God...~giggle!~


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## Alydon

No, I don't hate Beethoven - this man has with his music has got me through life with all adversities thrown in - I can never thank him enough and love every note he wrote. Beethoven wanted his music to touch everyone for all eternity - you hate Beethoven now but in time you will realise why he is the greatest composer of all time.


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## millionrainbows

Yes, thank you Beethoven! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! ~giggle!~


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## Borodin

What's harder is disliking both Beet and Hoven. I generally just prefer the latter.


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## trazom

I wouldn't say I hate his music, I do like some of it, mostly the piano sonatas and quartets. I get tired easily of the symphonies and the concertos as they sound so theatrical and overblown as a result of his self-fascination/setting his ego to music.


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## spradlig

I think Beethoven was a great composer who wrote a lot of great music. But not everything he wrote was great. I agree with aaroncopland's criticism, especially considering the finale of his 5th symphony, which is pretty cheesy.


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## nightscape

aaroncopland said:


> So I hate Beethoven. I know, I sound stupid saying this but I do.


It's alright baby, I made a mistake once too.


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## millionrainbows

nightscape said:


> It's alright baby, I made a mistake once too.


I think what's behind it is a seething hatred of his father.


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## Celloman

Celloman said:


> I'm a composer. So of course, I "hate" Beethoven. I hate him for writing so much great music when I can't!


You all know I was being sarcastic, right??!?


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## millionrainbows

Celloman said:


> You all know I was being sarcastic, right??!?


Yeah, you and Salieri. Hey, maybe you could freak out John Williams!


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