# living conditions in the West in the 2020s vs decades past (1950s, 1960s, etc)



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

FIRST: DO NOT DISCUSS POLITICS. This thread is not about politics -- if (in your view) any particular political party or program or ideology has been responsible for an increase or decrease in standards of living, you'll have to keep that to yourself or discuss it somewhere else. That's the TOS of the site and we all agree to abide by them or face discipline potentially including being permanently banned.

However, we should be able to discuss this because many changes (such as technological changes) have little or nothing to do with politics, and even when they have had something to do with politics we can notice the differences without getting into the political factors. 

In the retirement thread, I noticed people discussing how life is different today than in the 1970s. That made me curious. How is life today (the 2020s) different from life in:

- the 1930s? 
- the 1940s? 
- the 1950s? 
- the 1960s? 
- the 1970s? 
- the 1980s? 
- the 1990s? 
- the 2000s? 
- the 2010s?

Ideally we will focus on our personal experiences more than what we've heard or read or learned in history classes, so if anyone's living memory goes further back than the 1930s it'd be extremely interesting to hear from them. Since I was born in the mid-70s and cannot remember anything particularly interesting prior to 1990, I suspect that not many of us here can remember much about life prior to 1930.

When I was in high school in the early 1990s I had the very good fortune to work in a very old little shop that was owned by a woman in her 60s, and her main employee was a man in his 70s. The woman was not what you would call a people person -- in my clearest memories of her, she is striding down the center aisle of the shop with a yardstick raised over her head preparing to smack someone's toddler for playing with the store's goods, so the old man would run to stop her and I would see about giving the kid something harmless to do.

Anyway, it meant that the old guy and I were alone on the shop floor a lot, and a lot of times an older customer would hang around for ten or twenty minutes just to shoot the old bull, so I got to hear a lot of oral history of the 1930s and 1940s.

I heard a lot of interesting old stories from those guys. One guy told us about the flood of '37, when he and his family had to climb up on the roof of their house and he saw his teddy bear floating away. Another told us about being on a battleship (a carrier if I remember correctly) that was hit by a kamikaze pilot during WWII.

So, how is life today different than it was a few decades ago?

I hope the relatively junior participants will feel free to ask for more and more stories from the relatively senior ones.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

There are some obvious shifts from the time I grew up (born 1957) and now. I'll pick out three:

Family life: when my parents got married, my mother stopped working and became full time housewife and a year later mother of a first child (my brother). I followed seven years later. She never went back to work even after we both had left our home. This was probably the situation for the vast majority of couples at the time in the Netherlands. Nowadays I think this is rather rare.

Entertainment: Dutch TV for a long time only had two channels, and was initially in my youth black and white only. If you were lucky enough to live near the border, you could also get three German channels or two Belgian channels. Radio was the main other form of entertainment (three channels IIRC). My parents had an LP player and some records, but that was rarely used in the evening. Even with only two channels, there were shows one had to see - since they would be discussed the day after at school, at work or with neighbours. For the rest, there were books and magazines.

News and information: you got the news from TV, and the next morning from reading a newspaper. In addition, my father had a multi-tome encyclopaedia to check out. 

Internet was still decades away (and that has probably been the main game changer in our lives - for good and for bad).


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Convenience food. My brother was the Product Manager behind Coleman's "Make-a-Meal" - add a pound of mince beef to the packet ingredients and you had an 'exotic' meal. Together with Vesta, they started the trend towards convenience food in the UK. Take away foods and generally just eating out has increased massively too.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Food... that brings back memories. My mother was a good cook, but she cooked the Dutch way: a piece of meat, boiled potatoes and boiled vegetables. Some time in the mid sixties she tried pasta, because someone told her that this was great Italian food. So she served pasta. Just pasta. Nothing else, no vegetables, no sauce, no meat. Bless her. 

She did branch out in other styles of cooking later fortunately. Even so, eating paella on holiday in Spain in 1972 (our first flight as a family) was judged to be far too exotic.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

1960s - jumping out of bed on a cold winter morning to turn on the 2-bar electric heater, then jumping back into bed for ten-minutes
1970s - night storage heaters (a pile of bricks in a casing) that warmed-up over-night when the electricity was less expensive, then 'radiated' heat about four feet for about half-an-hour
1980s - balancing precariously on the edge of the bath holding a lighted match to the Ascot boiler in my student digs because the electric ignition had failed
1990s - central heating!
2000s - thermostats!
2020s - controlling the heating from my iPhone


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't have kids but just from my own observations things seem very different from the 60s & 70s when I grew up. I was always outdoors either playing unorganized sports with my friends or in the woods playing or fishing at the river close by. Today in both my neighborhood and across town where I grew up the streets are deserted. I rarely see kids outdoors playing. 

As far as living conditions, people got by on much less. Large families with 6-10 kids lived in small homes with only three bedrooms or sometimes four. Kids worked cutting lawns and delivering newspapers to earn spending or saving money. We all walked to school or at least down the street to the bus stop. Today parents over protect and pamper their kids picking them up at school or the school bus stops at every driveway to pick up the kids.

And even when kids are outdoors they're mostly staring at their phones. Maybe it's just my imagination but neighbors seemed friendlier in decades past. My parent who are still alive in their mid 80s are now flanked by two young families on either side. They behave as if they don't even have neighbors. They never look you in the eye and say hello. It's really weird. I think my folks are the only ones left still living in the same neighborhood since the mid 60s.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

science said:


> So, how is life today different than it was a few decades ago?.




Convenience in countless forms.

I have 95% of the worlds accumulated knowledge in my hand and available to me 24/7. That alone is a gift beyond anything we could have imagined in the 60's.

I can pluck virtually any music ever recorded from the internet, anytime I like. Positively fantastical.

I can keep up with friends and family, daily, without ever leaving my comfy chair.

This, along with increased productivity, has led to much more leisure time today.

A healthier generation has focused on food and nutrition, the benefits of exercise.

Do I get nostalgic for the past? Yes, we all do. Would I ever go back? NEVER.

I am rather envious of those born in 1990 and thereafter. Heck, even of those born in teh 80's.

When I was in college, TV went off the air at 11;30 at night. Now I have hundreads of choices 24/7.

It is a wonderful world you live in, enjoy!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Convenience is nice but I miss the social interaction of times when I would make frequent trips to the library, record stores, audio shops and actually talk and interact with flesh and blood humans. These places are all gone now. We still have libraries but people don't really talk there.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Chilham said:


> 1960s - jumping out of bed on a cold winter morning to turn on the 2-bar electric heater, then jumping back into bed for ten-minutes
> 1970s - night storage heaters (a pile of bricks in a casing) that warmed-up over-night when the electricity was less expensive, then 'radiated' heat about four feet for about half-an-hour
> 1980s - balancing precariously on the edge of the bath holding a lighted match to the Ascot boiler in my student digs because the electric ignition had failed
> 1990s - central heating!
> ...


My mom grew up in rural West Virginia and she tells me that when she was a kid (1950s) they used to heat up bricks in the stove and wrap them in a towel to take to bed with them. Of course they also had about three kids to a bed.

When I was a kid (1980s) I remember my great-grandparents arguing -- perhaps not seriously but I was too young to understand if they were joking -- about whose turn it was to get in the bed to warm it up. They also used hot water bottles. This was in Wyoming where the winters back then and even now are no joke.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I don't have kids but just from my own observations things seem very different from the 60s & 70s when I grew up. I was always outdoors either playing unorganized sports with my friends or in the woods playing or fishing at the river close by. Today in both my neighborhood and across town where I grew up the streets are deserted. I rarely see kids outdoors playing.
> 
> (...) Kids worked cutting lawns and delivering newspapers to earn spending or saving money. We all walked to school or at least down the street to the bus stop. Today parents over protect and pamper their kids picking them up at school or the school bus stops at every driveway to pick up the kids.
> 
> And even when kids are outdoors they're mostly staring at their phones. Maybe it's just my imagination but neighbors seemed friendlier in decades past. My parent who are still alive in their mid 80s are now flanked by two young families on either side. They behave as if they don't even have neighbors. They never look you in the eye and say hello. It's really weird. I think my folks are the only ones left still living in the same neighborhood since the mid 60s.


Interesting, since these are exactly some of the traits different from now, that I would mention, for the 1960s-70s - but in Denmark ...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

eljr said:


> When I was in college, TV went off the air at 11;30 at night. Now I have hundreads of choices 24/7.


I don't think most people under 50 even watch TV anymore, unless you count things like Netflix. The only significant exceptions would be sports and news channels during disasters.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I don't have kids but just from my own observations things seem very different from the 60s & 70s when I grew up. I was always outdoors either playing unorganized sports with my friends or in the woods playing or fishing at the river close by. Today in both my neighborhood and across town where I grew up the streets are deserted. I rarely see kids outdoors playing.
> 
> As far as living conditions, people got by on much less. Large families with 6-10 kids lived in small homes with only three bedrooms or sometimes four. Kids worked cutting lawns and delivering newspapers to earn spending or saving money. We all walked to school or at least down the street to the bus stop. Today parents over protect and pamper their kids picking them up at school or the school bus stops at every driveway to pick up the kids.
> 
> And even when kids are outdoors they're mostly staring at their phones. Maybe it's just my imagination but neighbors seemed friendlier in decades past. My parent who are still alive in their mid 80s are now flanked by two young families on either side. They behave as if they don't even have neighbors. They never look you in the eye and say hello. It's really weird. I think my folks are the only ones left still living in the same neighborhood since the mid 60s.


Everyone is much more frightened of each other than we used to be. Perhaps we've watched too much news?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

starthrower said:


> Convenience is nice but I miss the social interaction of times when I would make frequent trips to the library, record stores, audio shops and actually talk and interact with flesh and blood humans. These places are all gone now. We still have libraries but people don't really talk there.


Yes, my typical Sunday circa 1980 was church > record store > bookstore > wine shop > living room to consume the LP, book and wine.

Today, I attended mass via the internet in my living room, I hit a few keys on my laptop to get music, did the same for a new book which was delivered electronically and as I seldom drink any longer....


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

science said:


> Everyone is much more frightened of each other than we used to be. Perhaps we've watched too much news?


Interesting. And yet times are safer than ever.

This must be generational as I have no such fear. Never did. Still don't.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've never been frightened of people. But there's a kind of coldness and indifference in public places. Everybody's rushing around through the grocery stores. If my wife and I do strike up a conversation with a fellow shopper it's usually an older person.


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

1936, parents bought a new bungalow for £600, the road was gravel surfaced, got paved in 1938; milk delivered daily in glass bottles some dairies used foil tops, others used waxed card, Bread delivered weekdays. Some delivered by horse drawn cart, a few had petrol vans; some other foods delivered by boy on a pedal bike with a large basket on the front.












Started school in 1938, the building was a long Corrugated iron structure, known locally as the "Cow sheds" which from all acounts was what they had been originally during WW1.
Father had a "gammy leg" due to polio as a child, had a motor bike with sidecar to transport us around, then for a while at the beginning of WW" was unable to get petrol due to rationing so we all took to pedal cycles for a year or so. 
1939, father and neighbours dug a large hole in the back garden, concreted the floor, brick walls corrugated iron ceiling covered with about 4 feet of concrete reinforced with a load of scrap metal, installed seating round the walls - our own air raid shelter; a few months later another hole in a neighbour's garden, buried a 6'x8' shed installed bunk beds to sleep 4 adults and me. Luckily we only had a few incendiary bombs in the vicinity, but we did feel a lot safer, relatives in London were not so lucky.
We were lucky in other ways, father had many friends in the farming community who would invite him to visit at weekends to shoot a few rabbits, pheasants etc.
1944 started grammar school age ten and a half, still in short trousers for the first year.
1945 end of WW2 but most foods and other "essentials" were still rationed, I think it was nearly a year before ice cream appeared. Finished school1945, exchange visit with a French student, had a day in Paris at the start and end, but the rest of the time in Megéve; didn't like French cooking so cut short my stay.
Worked for a couple of years on a market garden, we grew bulbs for cut flowers in the winter and tomatoes and cucumbers in the summer, then in 1951joined the RAF, for 23 years, worked on airborne radar. Got married in October '54, RAF then sent me to the middle east for 30 months, wife was not happy! 
I will continue thus saga at some later time, my stomach suspects my throat is blocked, however if this is already too much then I will cease further narrative.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

@Dorsetmike.
My father lived in Bournemouth during the war. He spoke of the time when a German aircraft came down locally and he went to clamber over the wreck. Do you have any similar memories?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

starthrower said:


> We still have libraries but people don't really talk there.


In my country, you ain't supposed to!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> In my country, you ain't supposed to!


Well, I mean under your breath or in the lobby. I once pointed out a handmade sign they had posted with a word misspelled. The young girl at the desk just gloated and stared at me but said nothing.


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## Dorsetmike (Sep 26, 2018)

@Forster I think the most lasting memory of the war days was one lunchtime, I'd walked home from school when the air raid warning went, a short while later we heard an aircraft, looked out of the back door to see a twein engined German bomber appear out of the clouds and soon saw the bomb doors open and then 2 bombs fell from it, even though it was not heading towards us I being a devout coward immediately dashed in and dived under the dining room table. 
We heard the bombs explode some distance away. General opinion was that they were aiming for the railway viaducts at Bourne valley, but the bombs fell a few hundred yards short hitting the canteen of the gas works, being lunch time it was crowded I think there were 33 killed.





The other raid I remember was one Sunday around mid day, a hit and run raid by some FW190s they destroyed Beales - a large department store and also hit a hotel at the Lansdowne killing a umber of Canadian air force personnel. One bomb landed in the stream running through the pleasure gardens, just missed the main square, it is now a pleasant pool in said stream.
There was a factory making cordite for the Navy about 8 miles away, when it looked as though an air raid was imminent they would light fires on some of the islands in Poole harbour as a decoy, must have worked because they never hit the factory.

On a happier note, prior to D Day there was a build up of forces in the area including a large tented area for US army on some heathland about half a mile away, we got quite a lot of chewing gum and candy, blatant begging! Despite being in tents they had all "mod cons" including freezers; we heard later that one of their uses was to freeze cider (bought from local farmers) until much of the water content had frozen, leaving a potent alcoholic drink.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

When my family moved to Phoenix in 1971 while I was in first grade, most houses had swamp (evaporative) coolers, and most cars and buses didn't have air conditioning. Had that remained so, Phoenix never would've grown into the 5th largest city in the US, and the largest State Capital. It would've been too brutal for most people.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

starthrower said:


> Well, I mean under your breath or in the lobby. I once pointed out a handmade sign they had posted with a word misspelled. The young girl at the desk just gloated and stared at me but said nothing.


Sounds familiar!

Btw, the librarian in my junior school was Miss Silence. That really was her name!


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

1960s/early 1970s, Hackney east London. I remember the ice-man delivering huge blocks of ice from a horse drawn cart. few people in my area had fridges back then. It wasn't just coal and milk that was delivered to our doors.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> 1960s/early 1970s, Hackney east London. I remember the ice-man delivering huge blocks of ice from a horse drawn cart. few people in my area had fridges back then. It wasn't just coal and milk that was delivered to our doors.


My mom's stepfather's father was an ice delivery man in Brooklyn. He had eleven kids. Needless to say they were very poor.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Thinking about it... some things have not changed much.

When I was a youngster, like so many, I would visit my grandparents and work on the farm during the summer. (early 60's- 1975)

I now live in that same house. My mom was born in this house. The house was built by my great grandparents for my grandparents, circa 1920.

The old audio system: (this has changed greatly)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

One way that sociality has changed is where people meet to hang out. I don't remember people hanging out in coffee shops in the US prior to 1990 or so. Maybe it was more common among the urban middle class.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

HenryPenfold said:


> 1960s/early 1970s, Hackney east London. I remember the ice-man delivering huge blocks of ice from a horse drawn cart. few people in my area had fridges back then. It wasn't just coal and milk that was delivered to our doors.


To this day here in the States, people in their 80s and older grocery shop every day. When they came of age, they didn't have the luxury of buying a week's worth of groceries, and putting them in the fridge. When my parents were growing up in the country, both sets of grandparents would make a daily trip to the meat locker, and carve that day's dinner off their side of beef in their rented space.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Dorsetmike said:


> @Forster I think the most lasting memory of the war days was one lunchtime, I'd walked home from school when the air raid warning went, a short while later we heard an aircraft, looked out of the back door to see a twein engined German bomber appear out of the clouds and soon saw the bomb doors open and then 2 bombs fell from it, even though it was not heading towards us I being a devout coward immediately dashed in and dived under the dining room table.
> We heard the bombs explode some distance away. General opinion was that they were aiming for the railway viaducts at Bourne valley, but the bombs fell a few hundred yards short hitting the canteen of the gas works, being lunch time it was crowded I think there were 33 killed.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your recollections. I had a post wedding lunch in Beales in 1966 - my aunt and uncle were married in London but our family came from Dorset so returned there for a second reception.

Looking for historical evidence, I came across two sites. The first is about the raid that wrecked the department store.

https://news.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/d...eales-bombs-and-evidence-within-the-archives/

The second lists all the aircraft crashed in Dorset from 1907 - 2016. What struck me was the number of Spitfires and Hurricanes downed in 1940. Not that I didn't know about the Battle of Britain, but wasn't aware how widespread it was across the south of England.

https://dorset.hampshireairfields.co.uk/dorcrash.html


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I can't think of anything that hasn't changed in some way or other over the decades. What's more difficult is to evaluate change when we ourselves have changed too. My nostalgia for my childhood (1960s) seems to have increased lately, but in terms of _material _difference, 2022 is so much better. Food, transport, clothing, entertainment, housing, technology...etc

But then, I have the money to buy stuff. It's a long time since I had a sixpence pocket money to spend on a Wednesday and on a Saturday.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

progmatist said:


> To this day here in the States, people in their 80s and older grocery shop every day. When they came of age, they didn't have the luxury of buying a week's worth of groceries, and putting them in the fridge. When my parents were growing up in the country, both sets of grandparents would make a daily trip to the meat locker, and carve that day's dinner off their side of beef in their rented space.


I did not know that. Very interesting!

I grew up in the 1980s but so far out in the middle of nowhere that we couldn't make trips to the grocery store more than maybe twice a month, and we didn't have enough money for store food anyway, other than stuff like hot dogs. Probably were healthier for it, but sometimes I still can't believe that I have enough money to get Pop Tarts and name-brand cereal whenever I want.

One thing that has very noticeably changed in my lifetime is how many fast food places there are. When I was about ten years old, the nearest McDonald's was a three-hour drive away. Now there's one only thirty minutes away from where I lived then, in the town where the grocery store was, even though that town is actually a little smaller than it was back then.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

I grew up (sort of) in the late 50s/60s/early 70s. We were middle class by the post-war economic boom standards of the time, but a second car (or even a second TV) was a BIG deal. You didn't have a lot of _stuff_, let alone multiples of it, you didn't live in a hideous McMansion (I shared a bedroom with two brothers), and going anywhere by plane was practically unheard of.

We were "free range" kids, ALWAYS outdoors, on our bikes exploring the world and maybe even getting into a little trouble. The paranoia that infects today's parents, who keep their kids on a leash and stand with them at the end of the driveway (or sit in the car when cold) waiting for the school bus, was unfathomable to our parents, who, having come up during the Depression & WWII, weren't inclined toward infantilizing their kids.

Teachers were authority figures whom we respected/feared (particularly the "cool" ones), even as we were coming of age in the turbulent 60s and questioning authority; they (mostly) weren't the enemy.

Almost no one was fat--let alone obese--and the music was better!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay said:


> Almost no one was fat--let alone obese--and the music was better!


It's interesting to note that high fructose corn syrup was introduced to food products in 1975 and has since become ubiquitous contributing to weight gain and obesity.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> It's interesting to note that high fructose corn syrup was introduced to food products in 1975 and has since become ubiquitous contributing to weight gain and obesity.


The reason high fructose corn syrup exists is corn subsidies. With an artificial glut of corn on the market, new uses had to be created to get rid of some of it.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

High fructose corn syrup is not an excuse for the out-of-control obesity in America. Too many people don’t want to control their diets even when they have Type II diabetes. I put the behavior in the same general category (though not a health issue) of people back to buying SUVs and big trucks and then complaining about the price of gas.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No it's not an excuse, it's a major contributor to weight gain and disease. The stuff is deadly.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Not to mention it doesn't taste all that good.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

High fructose corn syrup is only a major contributor to weight gain and disease if consumed. Likewise with saturated fat, processed foods (think non-wheat flour, nitrites and nitrates) and alcohol. People with weight problems and related conditions should pay careful attention to what’s in the foods they eat. I have had to be on a very limited diet for years for a condition not weight related, but potentially life-endangering if not carefully managed. I have no patience for people who have serious obesity who continue to consume unhealthy foods/substances including high fructose corn syrup.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Not to mention it doesn't taste all that good.


It doesn't? Tell that to all the people drinking sodas and juice drinks and eating candy/chocolate and fast food.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

My short experience of American cuisine was not encouraging on the sweetness front. I found it difficult to order in restaurants/bars/cafés meals that didn't have a sweetened sauce added.

I daresay if I actually lived in the US, I'd find it easier to eat to be selective when shopping, but the impression I get is that it is easier to fall foul of sweet additives than it is in the UK.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Unhealthy processed foods and soda are relentlessly marketed to the US public. And the levels of sweeteners in these products increases every year. I've been checking ingredients labels at the grocery store for years and I see the added sugar levels going up, up, up. I would say this factor combined with increasing poverty and both parents working and relying on fast foods has dramatically contributed to the obesity epidemic. This is one of the major changes I've noticed since growing up 45-50 years ago.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm a "big guy". Not very tall at 5' 11" but I guess I could be described as, "heavy-set". A former loose-head prop for anyone that knows rugby. I've always struggled with my weight but sport and then a relatively active work life prior to lockdowns helped to keep me from 'ballooning'. 

A few years back I had a business meeting in Louisville, KY. I arrived very early on a flight from Cincinnati and spent my time up to my 14:00 meeting downtown, just getting to know the place. I can honestly say that I only saw one person that whole 5-6 hours who was less heavy than me. The guy my business meeting was with was the second.

I had lunch in what seemed to be a nice Italian restaurant. I couldn't finish my plate (lasagne if I remember correctly) as it was so large. Not a problem I thought but oh, no, chef comes out of the kitchen into the busy restaurant and berates me asking what was wrong with the food! Sheesh!


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Another story from that trip. I tend on short business trips to the US to stay on European time. Go to bed early, get up early. Real early. That means I want to eat early.

I ordered in a restaurant and was interrupted by a couple of senior citizens sitting at the table next to me that I shouldn't order what I had as it wasn't on the "Early-bird menu". The waitress told them I wasn't ordering off the Early-bird menu. At the top of their voice, "He's not ordering off the Early-bird menu!? You're not ordering off the Early-bird menu?"

I'm still not completely sure whether their obvious concern was aimed at me, who did I think I was not ordering off the Early-bird menu, or at the waitress for accepting my order. Either way the clear mistrust they felt towards me cast a cloud over my 'evening' meal.

Anyway, "Cool story bro" I hear you say sardonically.

Back to scheduled programming.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Has anyone mentioned space?

For example, my office today, attached to my house, is as big as the house I was brought up in. And although I do not have a big home, 2,000 Sq. Feet or so, for only two people, it is very spacious. 

And junk? People today typically live in 5,000 sq foot homes an drent storage lockers for all the junk they have that simply does not fit in the home. 

We are a very fat spoiled people is my humble opinion.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

And how about warmth?

In 1950-70 we had the windows open in the dead of winter as it was always so warm in the house. Typically set at 78 degrees. 

I know no one today who keeps a house so warm. It's far too expensive. I am cold all day long.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

eljr said:


> Has anyone mentioned space?


-------------------------------



Jay said:


> ...you didn't live in a hideous McMansion (I shared a bedroom with two brothers).


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> Unhealthy processed foods and soda are relentlessly marketed to the US public. And the levels of sweeteners in these products increases every year. I've been checking ingredients labels at the grocery store for years and I see the added sugar levels going up, up, up. I would say this factor combined with increasing poverty and both parents working and relying on fast foods has dramatically contributed to the obesity epidemic. This is one of the major changes I've noticed since growing up 45-50 years ago.


Not only marketed, formulated specifically for maximum appeal to our taste buds. There have been times I finished dinner more or less satisfied. I think, "What the heck. I'll have a handful of chips (crisps for you Brits) to top it off." After eating them, I'm suddenly hungry again.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

eljr said:


> And how about warmth?
> 
> In 1950-70 we had the windows open in the dead of winter as it was always so warm in the house. Typically set at 78 degrees.
> 
> I know no one today who keeps a house so warm. It's far too expensive. I am cold all day long.


That's almost 26 Celcius for the WOUSA crowd. Weird. My parents went for 22 deg. C (72 F), nowadays 19-20 deg.C (66-68 F) is pretty normal, and my wife and I chose to go for 18 deg. C (64 F). Just wear a good sweater and you're fine.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> That's almost 26 Celcius for the WOUSA crowd. Weird. My parents went for 22 deg. C (72 F), nowadays 19-20 deg.C (66-68 F) is pretty normal, and my wife and I chose to go for 18 deg. C (64 F). Just wear a good sweater and you're fine.


I did 65 two years ago, I could not take it. That with several sweaters.

Careful, the WHO recommends never below 64 and at our age, anything under 68 is considered unhealthy.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Chilham said:


> I'm a "big guy". Not very tall at 5' 11" but I guess I could be described as, "heavy-set". A former loose-head prop for anyone that knows rugby. I've always struggled with my weight but sport and then a relatively active work life prior to lockdowns helped to keep me from 'ballooning'.
> 
> A few years back I had a business meeting in Louisville, KY. I arrived very early on a flight from Cincinnati and spent my time up to my 14:00 meeting downtown, just getting to know the place. I can honestly say that I only saw one person that whole 5-6 hours who was less heavy than me. The guy my business meeting was with was the second.
> 
> I had lunch in what seemed to be a nice Italian restaurant. I couldn't finish my plate (lasagne if I remember correctly) as it was so large. Not a problem I thought but oh, no, chef comes out of the kitchen into the busy restaurant and berates me asking what was wrong with the food! Sheesh!


Yes, most people know it intuitively, but... how did a healthy tribe eat, 50k years ago. I consciously thought about it, and in 3 years my weight went from 196 to 135 lbs recently. At 135 I felt too thin so now I'm trying to maintain 140. I feel good. And it's so comforting to know that this time I won't go back up.

added;
Here in the States, when you buy a can of paint it weighs 6 lbs. The cans have a thin 'wire' handle, which becomes quite painful to carry very far. So, I was carrying around 9 cans of paint, everywhere I went...? It's no wonder our knees get so painful.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> That's almost 26 Celcius for the WOUSA crowd. Weird. My parents went for 22 deg. C (72 F), nowadays 19-20 deg.C (66-68 F) is pretty normal, and my wife and I chose to go for 18 deg. C (64 F). Just wear a good sweater and you're fine.


I tried setting the thermostat to 65F at night, and back to 72 at 630AM. I added up my monthly bills from last year, through December 2020. I've saved 40 percent this year ending in December 2021. I was surprised, so I added up the actual amount of natural gas for a clearer picture. Same, 40 percent.

One danger is dry eye. Opening your eyes (and eye movement during REM sleep) can be painful, if the dry, heated air blows on you for a long time.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> That's almost 26 Celcius for the WOUSA crowd. Weird. My parents went for 22 deg. C (72 F), nowadays 19-20 deg.C (66-68 F) is pretty normal, and my wife and I chose to go for 18 deg. C (64 F). Just wear a good sweater and you're fine.


My wife and I do 18.5C (65.3F) from 6-9am then 4-10 pm. We keep active during the day so need the heat less.

At least, that's what we set on the thermostat - it can take our 1930s house some time to get there!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

My father (born 1910) told me sometime around 1990 that three things were demonstrably better in the present day than in his youth: automobile tires, automobiles, and winter clothing. I'm sure he would have added a few more things, such as improved medicine. I would certainly add enhanced rights for women and minorities, and effective birth control. Yet, overall, there has been a marked decline otherwise in social cohesion, income and net worth distribution, and political integrity--ordinary venality and vice being replaced by ideological fanaticism and a turning away from standards of objective inquiry.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> I tried setting the thermostat to 65F at night, and back to 72 at 630AM. I added up my monthly bills from last year, through December 2020. I've saved 40 percent this year ending in December 2021. I was surprised, so I added up the actual amount of natural gas for a clearer picture. Same, 40 percent.
> 
> One danger is dry eye. Opening your eyes (and eye movement during REM sleep) can be painful, if the dry, heated air blows on you for a long time.


Growing up my dad kept the thermostat at 65 in the winter. The house had bare cinder-block exterior walls, which shed massive amounts of heat. Plus in the 1970s it was in the outskirts Phoenix, which would dip to the mid 20s overnight during cold snaps. The city has grown considerably since then, so now the house is "urban."



Strange Magic said:


> My father (born 1910) told me sometime around 1990 that three things were demonstrably better in the present day than in his youth: automobile tires, automobiles, and winter clothing. I'm sure he would have added a few more things, such as improved medicine. I would certainly add enhanced rights for women and minorities, and effective birth control. Yet, overall, there has been a marked decline otherwise in social cohesion, income and net worth distribution, and political integrity--ordinary venality and vice being replaced by ideological fanaticism and a turning away from standards of objective inquiry.


In recent years here in the Phoenix area, the summer heat has been accompanied by pieces of shredded tire all over the freeways. That rarely happened in the past.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

progmatist said:


> In recent years here in the Phoenix area, the summer heat has been accompanied by pieces of shredded tire all over the freeways. That rarely happened in the past.







Here's another version:


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Forster said:


> My wife and I do 18.5C (65.3F) from 6-9am then 4-10 pm. We keep active during the day so need the heat less.
> 
> At least, that's what we set on the thermostat - it can take our 1930s house some time to get there!


Around here, for 2 or 3 months temperatures reach 98 to 105 every day. Not as hot as Tucson or Phoenix, because we're high desert (4000 ft elevation). So the thermostat is set at 81 daytime, 78 for sleeping. Quite warm but you get used to it. Consequently I have the problem of being cold in the (mild) winters here (low humidity 10 to 20%), so the heat is set higher than anywhere else I've lived. 
You don't have months of triple digits?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> My father (born 1910) told me sometime around 1990 that three things were demonstrably better in the present day than in his youth: automobile tires, automobiles, and winter clothing. I'm sure he would have added a few more things, such as improved medicine. I would certainly add enhanced rights for women and minorities, and effective birth control. Yet, overall, there has been a marked decline otherwise in social cohesion, income and net worth distribution, and political integrity--ordinary venality and vice being replaced by ideological fanaticism and a turning away from standards of objective inquiry.


I don't remember the social cohesion. Land taxes were kept high ($8000 a year in the early 60s I remember) by municipalities in Westchester county where I grew up, for the purpose of keeping out the poor people (but not the poor Italians and Irish) from the City.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> You don't have months of triple digits?


Anecdotally, there's roughly 3 or 4 C difference between the south and the north of England (where I live). So in summer months, we might get as high as 27-29C (81F - 84F) while the south basks in 30-32C (86-89F)...for a day or two!

The highest temp ever recorded in the UK was just over 38C - 101F (in eastern England)

So, no, we don't. But then we don't get very low temperatures either. -1C to about 10C (30F - 50F) might be typical for England between December and February, but trends seem to be getting warmer at the moment. We've had few days (or nights) below 0C.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

progmatist said:


> Growing up my dad kept the thermostat at 65 in the winter. The house had bare cinder-block exterior walls, which shed massive amounts of heat. Plus in the 1970s it was in the outskirts Phoenix, which would dip to the mid 20s overnight during cold snaps. The city has grown considerably since then, so now the house is "urban."
> 
> In recent years here in the Phoenix area, the summer heat has been accompanied by pieces of shredded tire all over the freeways. That rarely happened in the past.


Yes, frying an egg on the sidewalk?
How do you deal with 110 and higher during such a long summer? I remember staying at a motel on the way to the west coast, packing up the car to leave, with 95F before sunrise. Wondering if the car would make it through the Death Valley conditions.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Forster said:


> Anecdotally, there's roughly 3 or 4 C difference between the south and the north of England (where I live). So in summer months, we might get as high as 27-29C (81F - 84F) while the south basks in 30-32C (86-89F)...for a day or two!
> 
> The highest temp ever recorded in the UK was just over 38C - 101F (in eastern England)
> 
> So, no, we don't. But then we don't get very low temperatures either. -1C to about 10C (30F - 50F) might be typical for England between December and February, but trends seem to be getting warmer at the moment. We've had few days (or nights) below 0C.


So you don't have to think about the cost of refrigerated air. It's about $300 here in July, for example. Some of my neighbors pay more than that. We need it by mid-May through early October, so it's a big expense.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> So you don't have to think about the cost of refrigerated air. It's about $300 here in July, for example. Some of my neighbors pay more than that. We need it by mid-May through early October, so it's a big expense.


No, fortunately we don't. However my gas and electric provider has been in touch this week to advise that my monthly payments for my next annual plan need to rise from £120 / $160 to £336 / $450...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> I don't remember the social cohesion. Land taxes were kept high ($8000 a year in the early 60s I remember) by municipalities in Westchester county where I grew up, for the purpose of keeping out the poor people (but not the poor Italians and Irish) from the City.


Social cohesion is relative. I do not assert that there has been a time of total or "perfect" social cohesion: certainly women and Blacks and other minorities were not regarded as equal members of society in the 1950s. Yet it would be difficult to argue that today's social fabric and political?shared value consensus has not been stretched and distorted far beyond anything experienced since the 1950s. I will not list the evidence for this assertion; the daily news ans commentary provide ample documentation.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*Topography & History of the Netherlands*

https://www.topotijdreis.nl/ Here a link to the historical topography of the Netherlands with maps of the whole country (you can zoom in on any location you fancy) and a slider on the left that shows the changes of the countryside (building of railways, highways, the growth of towns & cities) through the years.

If a comparable website exists of your home country, please post a link!


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> Yes, frying an egg on the sidewalk?
> How do you deal with 110 and higher during such a long summer? I remember staying at a motel on the way to the west coast, packing up the car to leave, with 95F before sunrise. Wondering if the car would make it through the Death Valley conditions.


It was definitely rough in the 70s when most cars and buses didn't have air conditioning, and most houses had swamp (evaporative) cooling. It was particularly bad when '70s cars had vinyl seats. Getting in a hot car wearing shorts was quite the adventure. Now with A/C everywhere, it's really not too bad living here. The 2 million+ people who've moved here during the intervening years seem to agree.



Luchesi said:


> Around here, for 2 or 3 months temperatures reach 98 to 105 every day. Not as hot as Tucson or Phoenix, because we're high desert (4000 ft elevation). So the thermostat is set at 81 daytime, 78 for sleeping. Quite warm but you get used to it. Consequently I have the problem of being cold in the (mild) winters here (low humidity 10 to 20%), so the heat is set higher than anywhere else I've lived.
> You don't have months of triple digits?


Tucson is actually a few degrees cooler than Phoenix, despite being farther south. Tucson sits about 1,000 feet higher in elevation.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

progmatist said:


> It was definitely rough in the 70s when most cars and buses didn't have air conditioning, and most houses had swamp (evaporative) cooling. It was particularly bad when '70s cars had vinyl seats. Getting in a hot car wearing shorts was quite the adventure. Now with A/C everywhere, it's really not too bad living here. The 2 million+ people who've moved here during the intervening years seem to agree.
> 
> Tucson is actually a few degrees cooler than Phoenix, despite being farther south. Tucson sits about 1,000 feet higher in elevation.


Yes, it's 4.4F per 1000 ft under an undisturbed atmospheric profile. But I think Tucson is a little cooler than 4.4F below Phoenix.

Added;
OK, it's a difference of about 1350 ft, so that's about what to expect. This week Tucson might get some of the backflow from this large system coming down.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Tucson also gets far more monsoon rain activity in the summer. They're closer to the monsoonal flow of moisture from the Gulf of Mexico.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

progmatist said:


> Tucson also gets far more monsoon rain activity in the summer. They're closer to the monsoonal flow of moisture from the Gulf of Mexico.


I still remember getting this question;
Why does Tucson get its rain from east of Texas instead of the Baja of California nearby?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> I still remember getting this question;
> Why does Tucson get its rain from east of Texas instead of the Baja of California nearby?


And people still call the summer weather monsoon "season." Monsoon is Arabic for season, so they're really calling it season season.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

progmatist said:


> ... so they're really calling it season season.


Report this to the Department of Redundancy Department.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

progmatist said:


> And people still call the summer weather monsoon "season." Monsoon is Arabic for season, so they're really calling it season season.


When the sun pushes the planetary waves far enough north by June, high pressure falls behind the rotation of planet and collides backward into weak systems to the west. Monsoon is this change in the flow of systems (surface reflections of slight disturbances aloft). The scattered convergences are often enough to give lift (along with the hot sun) for rain. Difficult to forecast..


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> When the sun pushes the planetary waves far enough north by June, high pressure falls behind the rotation of planet and collides backward into weak systems to the west. Monsoon is this change in the flow of systems (surface reflections of slight disturbances aloft). The scattered convergences are often enough to give lift (along with the hot sun) for rain. Difficult to forecast..


Yes, very difficult to forecast. Even with today's prediction technology, monsoon storms can pop up out of nowhere. That's why when they hit, they're still the top story on local newscasts.

When I was a kid in the 70s, my family were at the drive-in movies. A crowd of people were waiting for sunset so the movie could start. Kids were playing on the playground equipment right in front of and underneath the screen. A severe thunderstorm rolled in like a wave...literally that fast. Everyone got in their cars and left.

On another occasion my family went to the Salt River. On the way home on the opposite end of the valley, my parents were in the cab of the El Camino, and my 2 brothers and I were in the bed holding the rope on the inner tubes. We were suddenly overtaken by a monsoon storm, blowing in the same direction we were heading. All 5 of us crammed in the cab of the El Camino. About a mile from home when we crossed under the I-17 underpass, the storm finally stopped chasing us.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

On the subject of monsoon storms: they've become far more powerful in recent years. Native plant species like Palo Verde and Mesquite trees are now routinely torn apart by severe thunderstorms. Large branches are torn off the trunk, and even the trunk itself will split. This is due in part to the ever expanding urban heat island effect, as well as more energy in the atmosphere in general.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Staying with the OP, decades of the past, how do we accurately recall weather from our lives in the 70s and 80s? If we can't then how do we monitor AGW for ourselves?
A reliable way would be to look at the 20k ft winds and how they've been changing. We don't have good consistent records of this level from the 1970s. So, for the requirements of climatology we have a short record.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> Staying with the OP, decades of the past, how do we accurately recall weather from our lives in the 70s and 80s? If we can't then how do we monitor AGW for ourselves?


We can't, and in any case, recalling our personal experience of "the weather" is unlikely to help us recall our experience of "the climate".

Anecdotally, there seems to be a greater reporting in the media of weather events in the UK. But this may be due to my greater inclination to watch the news now I'm older; or to a shift in the way weather has become part of the news; or to changes in reporting, especially the increase in media outlets.

In other words, I'm an unreliable witness, regardless of the accuracy of my personal recollections. If I want to know about AGW, I must rely on external sources.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Forster said:


> We can't, and in any case, recalling our personal experience of "the weather" is unlikely to help us recall our experience of "the climate".
> 
> Anecdotally, there seems to be a greater reporting in the media of weather events in the UK. But this may be due to my greater inclination to watch the news now I'm older; or to a shift in the way weather has become part of the news; or to changes in reporting, especially the increase in madia outlets.
> 
> In other words, I'm an unreliable witness, regardless of the accuracy of my personal recollections. If I want to know about AGW, I must rely on external sources.


Good post. You hit the important points.
So, as you remember back to the 70s and 80s, what had you learned about how regional climates form, and therefore consequently, how weather happens out of those conditions?

I didn't get an interesting explanation back then. And I think that few people ever do get the interesting stuff, unless they pursue it on their own. It's like classical music. If there's window of time in our young lives when we should become fascinated with CM and dynamic meteorology, it's sad that these subjects (which will drift with us through the decades of our lives) are so poorly explained, if at all, anymore..


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> So, as you remember back to the 70s and 80s, what had you learned about how regional climates form, and therefore consequently, how weather happens out of those conditions?


Geography lessons in school included a study of different climate types around the world, but not a close examination of the factors that produced those differences, though I may be misremembering; it was 50 years ago!

Sticking to the UK, The dominant weather systems come from the south west/Atlantic, so our climate is determined by that, and by the Jet Stream. So we tend to get plenty of moist air and lots of rain - as is currently the case

The Pennines is a significant range of hills that runs down the middle of the country (though not the full length). This means that the west tends to be wetter, the east (where I now live) to be drier. Coastal areas tend to benefit from milder temperatures, but bear the brunt of storms - especially the west.

In the 70s and 80s, I lived down south, where snowfall was infrequent. I can remember snow in 63, 68, 71, 81 and 91. The coast gets less snow than inland, and the south less than the north (about 700 miles distance from the south coast of England to the north coast of Scotland).

The problem I have with anecdotes is that over the last 40 years, I've moved from south to north, and from east to west and back again over time. So any weather changes over time (especially the AGW type) might just as easily be attributed to my location and not to climate.

Anyway, summers were definitely longer when I was a child, and snow at Christmas was a real expectation, rather than a vain hope.

(NOT).


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Forster said:


> Geography lessons in school included a study of different climate types around the world, but not a close examination of the factors that produced those differences, though I may be misremembering; it was 50 years ago!
> 
> Sticking to the UK, The dominant weather systems come from the south west/Atlantic, so our climate is determined by that, and by the Jet Stream. So we tend to get plenty of moist air and lots of rain - as is currently the case
> 
> ...


Are the notable achievements in music best appreciated by learning fundamentals and dissecting the compositions, and finding about their natural effects? Yes, I believe so.

Are the notable achievements in understanding weather best appreciated by learning fundamentals and analyzing the phenomena, categorizing and following the specific regional dynamics? Yes, I believe so.

So, I ask people, what did you learn (when you were a captive student) about how weather happens? People will say, "….we tend to get plenty of moist air and lots of rain - as is currently the case." So, the next question is, does it rain every day? "No, it rains itself out. heh" Really?, so there's no rain for points east of you? "Well, let me re-think this."


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Forster said:


> We can't, and in any case, recalling our personal experience of "the weather" is unlikely to help us recall our experience of "the climate".


Last year or the one before I saw before Xmas some review of "white Xmases" or even more detailed about snowfall through december and early january, for the last 50 years or so. 
This correctly disproved that "white Xmas" is a frequent occurrence in the middle of Germany where I live (unless one is in hilly regions above 500m elevation or so) but it also showed that in my childhood in the late 1970s and early-mid 1980s there was quite a bit of snow in december most of the time and surprisingly many "white Xmases" in several years within that timeframe. So my recollection that we did have snow at least for a few weeks almost every winter when I was a kid was not wrong and since the 1990s the winters became milder with a few exceptions.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> Are the notable achievements in music best appreciated by learning fundamentals and dissecting the compositions, and finding about their natural effects? Yes, I believe so.
> 
> Are the notable achievements in understanding weather best appreciated by learning fundamentals and analyzing the phenomena, categorizing and following the specific regional dynamics? Yes, I believe so.
> 
> So, I ask people, what did you learn (when you were a captive student) about how weather happens? People will say, "….we tend to get plenty of moist air and lots of rain - as is currently the case." So, the next question is, does it rain every day? "No, it rains itself out. heh" Really?, so there's no rain for points east of you? "Well, let me re-think this."


Not sure I'm following your point here, Luchesi. Can you elaborate, slowly please, especially on the connection between dissecting music and dissecting the weather? Thanks



Kreisler jr said:


> Last year or the one before I saw before Xmas some review of "white Xmases" or even more detailed about snowfall through december and early january, for the last 50 years or so.
> This correctly disproved that "white Xmas" is a frequent occurrence in the middle of Germany where I live (unless one is in hilly regions above 500m elevation or so) but it also showed that in my childhood in the late 1970s and early-mid 1980s there was quite a bit of snow in december most of the time and surprisingly many "white Xmases" in several years within that timeframe. So my recollection that we did have snow at least for a few weeks almost every winter when I was a kid was not wrong and since the 1990s the winters became milder with a few exceptions.


This prompted me to look up the subject of white Christmases in Germany, and, as you might expect from the internet, there was some variation in "facts".

I did make clear that regardless of the accuracy of recollections, as yours are, one still has to refer to an external reference for some context, and any relevant indicators regarding claimte change.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

I think, back then, I was meaning to connect both 1. that people who are not like us are missing something from music.
(This is the only planet we’ll know) and 2. they’re missing something of the understanding of how weather happens. 

Now I can’t connect this back to the OP.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Last year or the one before I saw before Xmas some review of "white Xmases" or even more detailed about snowfall through december and early january, for the last 50 years or so.
> This correctly disproved that "white Xmas" is a frequent occurrence in the middle of Germany where I live (unless one is in hilly regions above 500m elevation or so) but it also showed that in my childhood in the late 1970s and early-mid 1980s there was quite a bit of snow in december most of the time and surprisingly many "white Xmases" in several years within that timeframe. So my recollection that we did have snow at least for a few weeks almost every winter when I was a kid was not wrong and since the 1990s the winters became milder with a few exceptions.


Fun fact: the song White Xmas was written poolside at a Scottsdale AZ resort. A suburb of Phoenix.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

progmatist said:


> Fun fact: the song White Xmas was written poolside at a Scottsdale AZ resort. A suburb of Phoenix.


Yes, growing up living in the frozen north of NY State, when I heard the introduction I thought, "What? Green grass, orange trees and they're longing to be up north??"


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Luchesi said:


> Yes, growing up living in the frozen north of NY State, when I heard the introduction I thought, "What? Green grass, orange trees and they're longing to be up north??"


New England has the quintessentially American set of seasons, so much that fall and winter in most of the South seem somewhat un-American.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

science said:


> New England has the quintessentially American set of seasons, so much that fall and winter in most of the South seem somewhat un-American.


We can enjoy all the seasons by simply driving a couple of hours north to the "high country." We can marvel at the fall colors, and play in the snow. Then when we've had our fill, drive back south to the warmth. In the summer, we can take a day trip and enjoy a brief respite from the heat.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

progmatist said:


> We can enjoy all the seasons by simply driving a couple of hours north to the "high country." We can marvel at the fall colors, and play in the snow. Then when we've had our fill, drive back south to the warmth. In the summer, we can take a day trip and enjoy a brief respite from the heat.


Seems like a lot of work when you could just stay in one place and let the seasons come to you.

They have no BBQ or cowboys in New England, and not that much by way of movie stars, so you've got to give them pumpkin festivals, snowy winters, and pretty nice springs.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> Are the notable achievements in music best appreciated by learning fundamentals and dissecting the compositions, and finding about their natural effects? Yes, I believe so.
> 
> Are the notable achievements in understanding weather best appreciated by learning fundamentals and analyzing the phenomena, categorizing and following the specific regional dynamics? Yes, I believe so.


Interesting. You do not delineate between art and science. 
I cannot image being tasked with dissecting compositions. It would surely separate me from my lifelong past time. 
Your submission seems very individual, it is more appreciated by you, which is fine of course. Not by me.



> So, I ask people, what did you learn (when you were a captive student) about how weather happens? People will say, "….we tend to get plenty of moist air and lots of rain - as is currently the case." So, the next question is, does it rain every day? "No, it rains itself out. heh" Really?, so there's no rain for points east of you? "Well, let me re-think this."


This seems a fallacy you submit. The answer you receive is perfectly adequate for conversation. It is only unacceptable in a scientific endeavor. I can't image a "captive student" in such an endeavor would answer as you suggest. Maybe the student was captured to study poetry?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

science said:


> Seems like a lot of work when you could just stay in one place and let the seasons come to you.
> 
> They have no BBQ or cowboys in New England, and not that much by way of movie stars, so you've got to give them pumpkin festivals, snowy winters, and pretty nice springs.


But then we don't get trapped by the weather. As local meteorologists like to point out when it's 115, you don't have to shovel heat. The only exception would be June 25th and 26th of 1990, when we hit our all time records of 120 and 122 respectively. Sky Harbor Airport had to suspend flights during the hottest part of the day, because Boeing and Air Bus simply didn't know if their newest planes could handle that kind of heat. Now they do know because they fly in that kind of weather all the time in the middle east.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

That's a clever post, thanks.



eljr said:


> Interesting. You do not delineate between art and science.
> I cannot image being tasked with dissecting compositions. It would surely separate me from my lifelong past time.
> Your submission seems very individual, it is more appreciated by you, which is fine of course. Not by me.


It's only one more step beyond what you do. It can become a big part of your life, as a big part of music appreciation.



> This seems a fallacy you submit. The answer you receive is perfectly adequate for conversation. It is only unacceptable in a scientific endeavor. I can't image a "captive student" in such an endeavor would answer as you suggest. Maybe the student was captured to study poetry?


Yes, you might say I appreciate the science in the art (music), and I also appreciate the art of scientific explanations (because we don't have a complete theory, and now it looks like we never will.). So that's one example I can think of. When weather as a topic comes up it's usually as you say 'adequate for conversation'. Because people talk about the weather like they talk about fishing and catching the big one. I think this is because weather is such a dry subject. So pedestrian and every-day, relentlessly repeating, BUT not exactly.. And everyone knows weather intuitively, because it's a very very old experience.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> I think this is because weather is such a dry subject. So pedestrian and every-day, relentlessly repeating, BUT not exactly.. And everyone knows weather intuitively, because it's a very very old experience.


Dry? Not dry if you live somewhere where it rains a lot.

Seriously though, the subject of weather is extemely important if it is changeable, unpredictable and potentially damaging to homes and livelihoods.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-60421388



> Summary
> 
> Three people have been killed on roads as Storm Eunice hits the UK
> A woman in her 30s has died in north London, a man in his 50s has died in Merseyside and a man in his 20s has died in Hampshire
> ...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Forster said:


> Dry? Not dry if you live somewhere where it rains a lot.
> 
> Seriously though, the subject of weather is extemely important if it is changeable, unpredictable and potentially damaging to homes and livelihoods.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-60421388


All the death and destruction because one of the 5 planetary waves stole some energy from its neighboring planetary waves and then the (smaller) waves under it were rallied into the damaging pattern.

It's waves within waves. The numerical models can predict when and why that planetary wave would do this. It's amazing to me.

To review, in the Northern Hemisphere, there's one planetary wave over the North Pacfic, one over you in Western Europe, one over North America, and two over Eastern Europe and Asia (these are weak ones).


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