# 'Unplayable' works (that where actually playable!)



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

There have been a number of works that I've gotten to know and love over the years. Often, these are innovative works which soloists (sometimes the soloist that the composer has in mind to premiere the piece) say are 'unplayable.' But in these cases, these guys got egg on their face (so to speak), the works ended up being playable. Except playable by musicians who where able to 'flex' themselves to the innovations that these composers where pioneering at the time.

Some examples -

*Schoenberg's Violin Concerto *(1936) - Jascha Heifetz said he'd need to grow a sixth finger to play it (to which Arnie sardonically replied "I can wait!"). But Jascha was proven wrong by another violinist, Louis Krasner, who ended up premiereing the concerto (Krasner had also premiered Alban Berg's _Violin Concerto_).

*Barber's Violin Concerto *(1939) - This has a convoluted history. There is a long entry on wikipedia. What it boils down to is that the violinist for whom Barber wrote it claimed the finale was unplayable (or at least too difficult to play). But Barber proved him wrong by paying a sight reader to play it, and that guy did it in less than two hours. It was eventually premiered by another violinist and has been the most popular American violin concerto to date.

*Michael Tippett's Piano Concerto* (1955) - This was written for Julius Katchen, who said it was unplayable, but another pianist Louis Kentner ended up premiering it, who proved that it was playable (he actually played it from memory).

*This is not only limited to 20th century music. *In their day, *Schubert's Symphony #9 'The Great' *and *Beethoven's late string quartets *where considered far beyond the capability of most musicians of the time, and even the most highly skilled musicians considered them very difficult to play (nearly unplayable?). Schubert's final symphony languished in the archives, only to be discovered 10 years after his death by none other than Robert Schumann. & there is a great anecdote of the lead violinist playing Beethoven's late quartets, Ignaz Schuppanzigh, being basically told to **** off by the composer when he complained that these works where too hard for him and his group to play.

*So I'm seeking your own examples of this type of thing, when something originally considered 'unplayable' turned out to be the opposite.

& also an interesting - including general - discussion on this issue which I often bump into when reading the liner notes of cd's of music I'm hearing.*


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

A while ago it was considered impossible to learn and record/perform all of Paganini's Caprices. Although now quite a few people have done it.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Tchaikovsky's piano concerto #1 is a famous example. One of the Rubensteins (Anton?) considered it unplayable. 

Also, to add to the Barber violin concerto story. The reason that finale was written in the first place was because that same violinist was complaining that the concerto was too easy and not showy enough.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Well, much of the output by Alkan still has the stigma of being unplayable (or at least being technically very difficult). Which is a shame according to Marc-André Hamelin who recorded several works and I tend to agree.

Also, a lot of works by Sorabiji were thought to be unplayable (Opus clavicembalisticum, for example) and for a long time only excerpts were performed.

Stockhausen has produced some works which can only be played by approximation, pieces like some of the Klavierstücke.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ives's fourth symphony was considered extremely difficult to play if i rembember well.
Transfigured notes of Milton Babbitt is another example.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

mensch said:


> Stockhausen has produced some works which can only be played by approximation, pieces like some of the Klavierstücke.


Tell me more...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I remember a story, not sure if it is true, not sure if the two composers should be reversed.

One day, Mozart challenged Haydn to play a new piano composition from the score. Haydn did - and stopped when at a certain moment the combined left and right hand score required 11 keys to be played simultaneously. Impossible! he cried. So Mozart sat down and played the piece, using his nose to play the 11th key.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Monteverdi's _Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda_ was _so _unplayable at the time it was written, the cellists went on strike. TREMOLOS AND PIZZICATO FOR GOD'S SAKE! WHO WOULD _COMPOSE_ SUCH IMPOSSIBLE TECHNIQUES?!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> I remember a story, not sure if it is true, not sure if the two composers should be reversed.
> 
> One day, Mozart challenged Haydn to play a new piano composition from the score. Haydn did - and stopped when at a certain moment the combined left and right hand score required 11 keys to be played simultaneously. Impossible! he cried. So Mozart sat down and played the piece, using his nose to play the 11th key.


I've heard that story too. Also in the second movement of Rodrigo's _Concierto de Aranjuez_ several guitarists have performed a certain tricky harmonic with their nose on the string instead of their finger. It isn't unplayable, but I thought it was quite similar to that Mozart story.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bruckner's early symphonies were often met with bemusement bordering on incomprehension on the part of some conductors who accused them of being 'wild' or 'unfathomable' (a criticism especially aimed at no. 3). Often Bruckner was left to conduct the early symphonies himself which apparently didn't do them - or him - many favours either. Bruckner's insecurity-driven revision policy probably muddied the waters further. Knowing what we know now maybe it was the content that demotivated other conductors rather than the form but whatever the reason(s) it still led to what few performances there were being rather less than satisfactory. Bruckner had to wait until the premier of the 4th under the baton of Hans Richter before there were any real positive results in the concert hall.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I've read that Tchaikovsky's and Stravinsky's violin concertos were considered unplayable at first glance. Tchaikovsky's took awhile to catch on, but Stravinsky's friend (some violinist who persuaded him to write the concerto) figured out how to play it pretty quickly.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Regarding the Great C Major:



> By 1818 the Viennese had typecast Schubert as a vocal composer, and the label stuck. His keyboard, chamber, and orchestral works were hardly known despite their excellences. Older brother Ferdinand hoarded the manuscript of No. 9, which Robert Schumann finally saw in 1838, and took to Leipzig. Orchestras in Vienna and Paris *flatly refused to play it*, however, and London musicians laughed derisively during rehearsals in 1844, when Mendelssohn tried without success to perform it there as he had in Leipzig ("with cuts" -- big ones). Strings in particular *hated playing its endlessly repetitive patterns:* their pre-Wagner and pre-Bruckner bow arms were not ready for Schubert's "heavenly lengths." When all repeats are observed, the Ninth lasts over an hour, *with almost no let-up in momentum.* Three of Schubert's four movements employ sonata form -- the first, the finale, and the song sections in an ABA scherzo. Only the slow movement is written in expanded song form (ABABA).


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Once this violinist girl at my school refused to play the violin part of the Oboe Quartet I wrote. That must mean I'm as good as these other composers.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

The head of music at my school told me today that my "Worker's of the World, Unite!" would be too difficult to put together and had (to quote him and Joseph II) "too many notes."

:scold:

Just the response I'd get from someone who knows nothing (or very little in the head of music's case) about music.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The head of music at my school told me today that my "Worker's of the World, Unite!" would be too difficult to put together and had (to quote him and Joseph II) "too many notes."
> 
> :scold:
> 
> Just the response I'd get from someone who knows nothing (or very little in the head of music's case) about music.


Just tell him that if he doesn't accept your piece, then you are going to sic your proletariat dictatorship on his ***.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

science said:


> I've read that Tchaikovsky's and Stravinsky's violin concertos were considered unplayable at first glance. Tchaikovsky's took awhile to catch on, but Stravinsky's friend (some violinist who persuaded him to write the concerto) figured out how to play it pretty quickly.


Samuel Dushkin. They made together first recording in 1935.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Tell me more...


The first Klavierstück attracted criticism regarding notation and contains very complex rhythms and was therefore deemed extremely hard to play, because of it. Klavierstück X requires the performer to use his fists, arms, etc. to strike chords which makes accuracy rather difficult.

I've tried to the excerpt where I based my statement on "playing them by approximation" on, I believe it was in Alex Ross' book ("The Rest is Noise"). As he treats several colleagues of Stockhausen in the same condensed chapter, I might have confused one of them with Stockhausen's work. I'll have a look as soon as I'm home.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Godowsky's etudes on Chopin's etudes, Lyapunov's Trascendental etudes, Albeniz's Iberia suite. Ravel's Gaspard, Rachmaninoff's two sonatas, Tchaikovsky grand sonata. All are playable, but only by first class pianists with a trascendental technique.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Schoenberg's Wind Quintet (1924) apparently posed significant difficulties. At its premier, the entire piece took about an hour to perform, far away from Schoenberg's desired tempi. Nowadays, performances take around 35-40 minutes.

In one of his essays on Beethoven, Wagner wrote that the late piano sonatas initially failed to create the desired effect on audiences because the pianists, from a technical point of view, weren't up to the task. It was, according to Wagner, only after Liszt started performing them that people realized the sonata's true greatness.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Sorabji. Then again, a lot of his work is still considered unplayable.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Love reading everyone's responses, I did not expect such a response in such short a time!



violadude said:


> ...
> Also, to add to the Barber violin concerto story. The reason that finale was written in the first place was because that same violinist was complaining that the concerto was too easy and not showy enough.


If I remember well, the violinist said the first two movements where not showy enough, but then Barber wrote that 'moto perpetuo' finale which the guy then said was too hard. Kind of ironic. But its probably simplifying what is a convoluted story. The wikipedia page on this work is pretty long, owing to its difficult gestation, and there are still gaps in knowledge of what happened. But its another irony how, despite all that, its the most popular concerto to come out of USA, in the league of (say) Gershwin's_ PIano Concerto in F_.



Andreas said:


> ...
> In one of his essays on Beethoven, Wagner wrote that the late piano sonatas initially failed to create the desired effect on audiences because the pianists, from a technical point of view, weren't up to the task. It was, according to Wagner, only after Liszt started performing them that people realized the sonata's true greatness.


Which reminds me how performance has improved since those days. I even read that Saint-Saens composed his second piano concerto very quickly and didn't have much time to practice/rehearse the piano part, which was then even very hard for a pianist of his high calibre. Consequently, the premiere was not received well. Another irony is that this is now his most popular piano concerto out of the 5 he did. & I doubt that its considered to be particularly difficult, or more difficult than others of this type/era, by pianists today. But I am only guessing, I'm no pianist to make a definitive statement on that. In any case, that concerto is often played and has been recorded many times over. So its standard repertoire material - a 'warhorse' - now, has been for ages.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

violadude said:


> Tchaikovsky's piano concerto #1 is a famous example. One of the Rubensteins (Anton?) considered it unplayable.


And yet only a couple of years ago, I played in a performance where the soloist was a 17-year-old girl, who did the piece credit. Quite remarkable.
GG


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Take a look at this clip showing Bach's _Brandenburg_ #2 played on a genuine natural trumpet, so all you hear was lip work, nothing else. Take notice of the instances when the virtuosic parts finish, and the player looked he was literally about to pass out! Sheer virtuosity!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

Yefim Bronfman thought parts of Lindberg's new Piano Concerto No.2 were unplayable at first, but he felt he owed the composer, who is a fine pianist, the respect of trying to conquer it. He eventually did, and the results are stunning!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I think th emost difficult work ever written is 4 ' 33" by John Cage. No pianist has the technique to play it.















:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Of course there's The Rite of Spring, which eventually became standard repertoire, but then there's also John Cage's Freeman Etudes for violin, and the Etudes Australes for piano, which are literally written to be as difficult as possible. The Freeman etudes are each series of the most difficult and awkward possible double, triple and quadruple stops, and awkward leaps to be played as fast as the players virtuosity allows, and the Etudes Australes are 'duets for two hands', as in, each hand is designated a grand staff, so both hands play all over the keyboard in awkward hand crossings and gestures. Yet there are several recorded performances of said works :3 The fact that musicians could play this music was very inspiring to Cage, who actually believed they may be impossible, so he kept writing more. The books represented to him achieving the impossible. :3


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

superhorn said:


> I think th emost difficult work ever written is 4 ' 33" by John Cage. No pianist has the technique to play it.


How very clever  nobody has ever made that joke before.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

_Tristan und Isolde_ originally had over 70 rehearsals before the tenor Alois Ander declared it unperformable.

It was finally premiered by tenor Ludwig Schnorr von Carolsfeld, who died of exhaustion after only 4 performances.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> How very clever  nobody has ever made that joke before.


Not about pianists anyway - that get's a housepoint.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie's 'Tristan und Isolde' example reminds me of Schoenberg's 'Pierrot Lunaire,' which I think needed way more rehearsals than the usual thing at the time. I think it was about 40 rehearsal sesssions in all. Of course neither Wagner's or Schoenberg's music is still a walk in the part, even now after they have been around for ages. Eg. before Hilary Hahn recorded and played live Schoenberg's violin concerto, it had kind of languished in the shadows quite a bit, her giving it more than a nudge has pushed it into the spotlight to more degree than it ever was. She played it to packed houses in Europe a few years back when the album was made, coupling it with Sibelius' concerto. Its remained a favourite album of mine ever since I got it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm sure it was exceedingly difficult for singers to wrap their heads around Sprechstimme at the time.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Dedicated to Adolf von Henselt, the Grand Concert Solo was a large-scale virtuoso piece that baffled many of Liszt's contemporaries. Henselt himself declared that it was unplayable and the Schumanns similarly denounced it as a "bombastic" and impossibly difficult piece. It never received much attention in the 19th-century and continues to be neglected today.

Leslie Howard calls this work the Sonata in B minor "junior" and there is actually not as much empty technical display as found in many of Liszt's operatic fantasies and etudes. It is a stern even profound work of surprising lyricism, sonorous piano-writing, and arresting harmonic turns.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_ originally had over 70 rehearsals before the tenor Alois Ander declared it unperformable.
> 
> It was finally premiered by tenor Ludwig Schnorr von Carolsfeld, who died of exhaustion after only 4 performances.


Along with half of the audience no doubt.


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