# Ralph Vaughan Williams Symphonies



## whispering

Hello

I have recently been listening to the symphonies of Sibelius after reading several different threads on this forum. In turn I have obtained a box set of Dvorak’s first six symphonies, having known the latter three quite well previously.

I buy a classical music magazine in the UK each month which this month had a free CD attached containing recordings of RVW’s 4th and 6th symphonies. This composer is new to me outside of his lovely string quartets.

Please can I ask for some guidance regarding his full set of symphonies.

1) Which of his symphonies do you enjoy the most and why?
2) Of your most favourite symphonies which in your opinion are the best CD recordings available?
3) Finally if you were going to buy a box set of all of his symphonies which would you recommend? 

As stated on other threads I am getting use to the idea I might being living alone for god knows how many later years of my life. After a lengthy caring role ended getting back into classical music is helping me greatly. The problem is todate I have largely stuck with the majors eg Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Haydn, etc. Now I find myself listening to a radio concert or diving into YouTube and getting pulled in every direction. Bit like a kid in a sweet shop. One day I will have to say enough but not today.

Any comments will be most welcome.

PS As suggested on my thread about the Sibelius symphonies I am still listening to those outside of my initial favourites of numbers 1 and 7. Number 4 is growing on me.


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## Enthusiast

I like them all, the first perhaps less so. As for sets, Previn is good (but a weak 4th) as is Handley and Haitink. Boult is also excellent, of course, but the sound is not quite modern. Barbirolli made some really essential VW recordings and Pappano's recent recording of 4 and 6 is also extraordinarily good. Vaughan Williams himself made an unforgettable recording of the 4th.


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## Becca

Q.1:
1, 2, 5, 8 The 'why' depends very much on the mood.
The 5th is particularly nice during contemplative times.

Q.2:
1 - Halle / Mark Elder
2 - No particular recommendation for the standard (1933/36) version but DO get the LSO/Hickox recording of the original 1913 version
4 - London SO / Antonio Pappano (also has the 6th)
5 - Royal Liverpool PO / Vernon Handley
5 - There is also a very good YouTube video with the LSO / Simon Rattle done during the 2020 not-really-Proms
6 - Bavarian Radio SO / John Barbirolli
8 - Halle / John Barbirolli - careful, there are more than one of these, there is a mono version from the world premier plus a stereo recording done shortly thereafter which is the desirable choice.

Q.3:
I don't recommend sets as I don't believe that any one conductor gets them all right.


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## Philidor

I fully agree Enthusiast's statement. Handley or Haitink are good places to start. Every cycle has weak links that can be filled later with exceptional recordings.

I like #1 very much, because it is a real choir symphony. I like this.
#3 is called "Pastoral Symphony", it is actually a symphony reflecting war.
#4 is a rough piece. Great, but you need an affinity for dissonances.
#7, Sinfonia Antartica, is special, too. In fact, all 9 are special. If you like Sibelius 4, you could like RVW 7. 
The last two symphonies are interesting for new combinations of sounds. Modern stuff.

If you know all stuff left and right, say Mahler, Sibelis, Rach, Prokofiev, Scriabin, Nilelsen, it is time for RVW ...
If you don't want to invest in a cycle, I would check in order of composition: 1, 2, 3, ...


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## Bulldog

I favor Handley and Boult for the symphonies. Love them all except for no. 7.


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## Subutai

If you've been enjoying Sibelius' symphonies, I'd suggest that a natural progression would be Dane Carl Nielsen's as opposed to RVW. There's only 6, usually on 3 discs. As for recommendations, may I suggest Blomstedt (SFS) Schonwandt or Oramo.


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## Strange Magic

I personally like the 5th and the 8th--the 5th especially for its calm, poignant mood. A Favorite in any ranking of all symphonies. The Simon Rattle Proms YouTube is especially effective IMO in that the hall is empty due to COVID, a tender commentary on the times.


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## bz3

Subutai said:


> If you've been enjoying Sibelius' symphonies, I'd suggest that a natural progression would be Dane Carl Nielsen's as opposed to RVW. There's only 6, usually on 3 discs. As for recommendations, may I suggest Blomstedt (SFS) Schonwandt or Oramo.


I think Bax or even Stravinsky is a better path from Sibelius for those looking to further explore his aesthetic. I find in Sibelius little similarities with Nielsen's style, but to be fair I find Nielsen mostly mediocre. I never really thought of RVW as being very alike either of them.


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## marlow

RVW is a great composer to look at. Obviously there is the Tallis Fantasia and Lark Ascending.
First symphony is the best set is the old Boult set but it’s in mono. For a more modern set Haitink or Previn or Handley are excellent. Hickox is also good and recorded no 2 in the original which has some great music.


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## Art Rock

Big fan of 2, 5, and 7; next level would be 3, then 4,6,8,9. Don't care for the first.
I don't have a complete set by one conductor, but most of mine are by Thompson on Chandos, and I'm happy with them.

I find the Bax symphony cycle more consistent in quality (although the best RVW symphonies beat any of the Bax symphonies for me). Also worth exploring are Bliss' Colour symphony and Moeran's symphony.


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## Subutai

bz3 said:


> I think Bax ... is a better path from Sibelius...but to be fair I find Nielsen mostly mediocre. I never really thought of RVW as being very alike either of them.


To be fair I find both Arnold Bax and RVW mediocre. Their music rarely travels outside the British Isles. Nielsen on the other hand... ..


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## dko22

Vaughan Williams 3rd has a quite unique haunting atmosphere and is one of the most important symphonies by an English composer. All the central works 3-6 are impressive in different ways. I've never liked the "Sea symphony" and the "London" I've likewise always been indifferent to. "Antarctica" impressed me in a concert once. The last in the cycle I know rather less well. I have tended to prefer Boult in the core works. 

Incidentally, I don't know why Nielsen is often compared to Sibelius as they have virtually nothing in common. Even the countries Finland and Denmark and their people differ widely. I've seen it said that Nielsen is actually more of successor to Beethoven temperamentally which is indeed closer to the mark.


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## CnC Bartok

I don't know which of the RVW symphonies is my favourite, but there are some very good candidates - 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 particularly..... that narrows it down!! As with a couple of others here, I don't really have much time for A Sea Symphony (No.1), and I honestly believe Vaughan Williams wrote some much finer choral music anyway, Dona Nobis Pacem springing immediately to mind. If pressed, I'd have to say No.2 is my favourite, but....best recording of No.2 for me is either Handley or the extended Hickox as an interesting - not necessarily better - alternative. No.3 it's Boult II or Hickox. No.4 is Brabbins or Berglund's one off. No.5, Previn or Handley, No.6, Handley's earlier recording or Boult II.

I have lots of recordings, including complete cycles, ongoing cycles, abandoned cycles, and very fine individual recordings. I have to confess I am thoroughly enjoying Martyn Brabbins' cycle coming out on Hyperion, very fine, balanced, unfluffy performances, and very excellent recording quality. Off the top of my head the full cycles in my collection are : Boult, Boult, Previn, Handley, Davis, Bakels, Haitink, Slatkin, plus the incomplete(d) Brabbins and Hickox. No clear favourite again, but I think Vernon Handley wins by a short head. Personally I have nothing against Haitink's, and do not understand why he gets such a bad press for these performances, which are as interesting, loving and stodge-free as the best.


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## Markbridge

Boy, it's so nice to see such affection for RVW! He's been a favorite of mine since I first hear his 1st in the early '70s. My favorite symphonies would be his 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, & 8. But, he wrote lovely music besides his symphonies, the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Five Variants of Dives & Lazarus and Lark Ascending. For symphonies, I would probably recommend Previn's, only because it's quite reasonably priced. It's available at Amazon & iTunes for download for $25. And if there are some symphonies that you particularly enjoy, you can always branch out with different conductors. If you don't mind I would like to share my first discovery of his Dives & Lazarus. While I was in the Navy I was stationed aboard a submarine in the late '70s. The skipper was also a lover of classical music and we would sometimes swap cassette tapes. I saw that he had a tape of Vaughan Williams shorter works and asked to borrow it. When I began playing it, I stopped everything I was doing and my eyes filled with tears. I had never heard anything so heart wrenchingly beautiful. Even after all these years, every time I play it, I still stop and ponder its beauty. 

I second the recommendation to investigate Nielsen's symphonies. His 3rd is wonderful with off-stage baritone and soprano. Blomstedt's recordings are available for download at Amazon for $9 for symphonies 1-3 & $9 for symphonies 4-6. His overture to his opera Maskarade reminds me of Bernstein's Candide overture, just pure joy and fun. His Hello Overture, fantastic! 

Another composer I've recently discovered is English composer William Alwyn. I bought all of his symphonies and concertos and, quite frankly, there's not a dud in the lot. And his "Fanfare for a Joyful Occasion" is just that, joyful. 

Anyway, I'm envious. There's nothing like the joy of discovering new composers and their music. Happy hunting!


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## Malx

I recall someone once remarked to me that I mustn't really like RVW's music when I expressed my preference for the late Symphonies 6, 8 & 9 plus 7 provided there is no narration.
These are still my favs but the others I listen to from time to time and enjoy but not to the same degree.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> I recall someone once remarked to me that I mustn't really like RVW's music when I expressed my preference for the late Symphonies 6, 8 & 9 plus 7 provided there is no narration.
> These are still my favs but the others I listen to from time to time and enjoy but not to the same degree.


8 & 9 are superb. 9 being my favourite and 8 is dedicated to Giovanni Battista. Years ago, going through a 'wasteland' phase, I was addicted to 6. I need to work a bit on 7 (actually preferring it with narration). 1's a struggle, 2 I overdosed on and what can you say about 3, 4 & 5!


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## Becca

deleted


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## HenryPenfold

Becca said:


> deleted


Lol!


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## Becca

HenryPenfold said:


> Lol!


I remembered the Giovanni, I had forgotten about the Battista - but the score does have it anglicized.


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## Heck148

whispering said:


> I buy a classical music magazine in the UK each month which this month had a free CD attached containing recordings of RVW’s 4th and 6th symphonies. This composer is new to me outside of his lovely string quartets.
> Please can I ask for some guidance regarding his full set of symphonies.


Vaughan Williams symphonies are a fine treasure trove of music -
My favorites.....in some sort of order:
4
6, 2, 9
8, 7, 1
3, 5
I find Boult to be quite consistent with fine recordings...Boult and Solti, to me, are the conductors that can get really first-rate results from the LondonPO....


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## marlow

Heck148 said:


> Vaughan Williams symphonies are a fine treasure trove of music -
> My favorites.....in some sort of order:
> 4
> 6, 2, 9
> 8, 7, 1
> 3, 5
> I find Boult to be quite consistent with fine recordings...Boult and Solti, to me, are the conductors that can get really first-rate results from the LondonPO....


Solti in RVW? Did he make any recordings of his music?


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## CnC Bartok

marlow said:


> Solti in RVW? Did he make any recordings of his music?


I think Heck was referring to Solti's relationship with the LPO in general (something I'd struggle to disagree with...!). I am unaware of any RVW recordings.


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## Heck148

marlow said:


> Solti in RVW? Did he make any recordings of his music?


No, Solti did not record VW symphonies, tmk...he did Elgar with LPO, which sound very good...


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## larold

I've enjoyed Vaughan Williams for many years and like many of his symphonies thought not all of them. I most enjoy the Third and Fifth symphonies which to most ears are similarly genteel and pastoral. Ditto the Symphonies Nos. 4 and 6 in the opposite way -- aggressive, disturbed, even violent. The Vaughan Williams "Antartica" Symphony 7 is very mysterious, eerie, and uses a wind machine very effectively.

I cannot say I have ever enjoyed any of his symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 8 or 9 so no complete set has made much of a difference to me.

Of the sets I have owned (both Boults, Slatkin, Previn, Haitink and Thomson) the one I liked most from a sound and musical perspective was Bryden Thomsen's with the London Symphony. I would draw specific attention to his version of the Symphony No. 5. Most people think this is a light, airy walk in the English countryside. I think, if you listen closely to Thomson's version, you will hear it is not that at all. It is instead one big nervous edge waiting to exhale, the calm before a storm with the storm wanting to burst forth any moment. It did so (again) in Symphony No. 6 that came next.

I explained my ideas of Thomson's utterance in greater detail in an Amazon.com review of the CD version.


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## Pat Fairlea

Life's too short to say all that I think about RVW's symphonies, except that he is too often expected to be blandly English and gentle. Which he isn't. Sym 3 may be called 'Pastoral', but it's a requiem for a pastoral landscape now utterly changed by war. Sym 5 is deceptively quiet, but can be full of tension and anxiety. Sym 4 is just bloody furious. Listen to RVW's own conducted recording of it - fast tempi, huge dynamic steps, anger and drama throughout. Sym 8, in contrast, is almost whimsical, playing around with percussion and some cheerful little themes. 
Conductors? Boult is more or less canonical, I guess, but rather cautious for my liking. Previn/LSO did a superb job of not falling for the English Pastoral preconception, and Handley really gets into the detail. But it's horses for courses, and a chacun son gout.


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## Brahmsian Colors

larold said:


> I've enjoyed Vaughan Williams for many years and like...his symphonies though not all of them. I most enjoy the Third and Fifth symphonies which to most ears are similarly genteel and pastoral


Ditto. Haitink/London Philharmonic is my top choice for the Third, Boult/London Philharmonic for the Fifth.


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## Great Uncle Frederick

Haitink is well worth considering if you want a complete set. My favourites are the 2nd, especially under Barbirolli, and the 6th. That beautiful passage on the strings in the first movement of the latter was used in the TV series 'A Family At War' and was my introduction to these works. I'm still trying to get to grips with No. 1 but hope is fading!


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## Becca

Great Uncle Frederick said:


> Haitink is well worth considering if you want a complete set. My favourites are the 2nd, especially under Barbirolli, and the 6th. That beautiful passage on the strings in the first movement of the latter was used in the TV series 'A Family At War' and was my introduction to these works. I'm still trying to get to grips with No. 1 but hope is fading!


Have you heard Barbirolli's live 6th with the Bavarian Radio SO?


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## Great Uncle Frederick

Becca said:


> Have you heard Barbirolli's live 6th with the Bavarian Radio SO?
> No, but I've always rated the BRSO very highly.
> 
> 
> 
> Becca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you heard Barbirolli's live 6th with the Bavarian Radio SO?
> 
> 
> 
> No, but I've always rated the BRSO very highly.
Click to expand...


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## marlow

Haitink is superbly recorded and played.


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## RobertJTh

marlow said:


> Haitink is superbly recorded and played.


True, but it's also excruciatingly dull. At least to my ears.
I remember, back in the days when record shops still existed, me going for a WV cycle, and the clerk trying to sell me the Haitink. Had to explain that Haitink is the dullest conductor in existence, a sort of King Midas of dullness. With some exceptions (some Shostakovich, a Mahler or two, and a bit of French repertoire, maybe 5% of what he recorded). Long story short, they didn't have Boult, so no sale.

Did anyone hear the Elder/Halle cycle? Hurwitz is sh*tting on it in his latest video, so I guess it must have some redeeming qualities.


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## Becca

I can't speak for the others, not having heard them, but his 1st (Sea) is at the top of my list.


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## marlow

RobertJTh said:


> True, but it's also excruciatingly dull. At least to my ears.
> I remember, back in the days when record shops still existed, me going for a WV cycle, and the clerk trying to sell me the Haitink. Had to explain that Haitink is the dullest conductor in existence, a sort of King Midas of dullness. With some exceptions (some Shostakovich, a Mahler or two, and a bit of French repertoire, maybe 5% of what he recorded). Long story short, they didn't have Boult, so no sale.
> 
> Did anyone hear the Elder/Halle cycle? Hurwitz is sh*tting on it in his latest video, so I guess it must have some redeeming qualities.


Not to my ears. Then I don’t take notice of cranks like Hurwitz


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## Forster

I prefer Haitink's Pastoral to Elder's. I'm not aware that I am particularly partial to excruciatingly dull.


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## Becca

After having heard two more of Elder's RVW cycle...

#5 - Definitely amongst the best
#8 - Probably best described as B+, better than many but I'd rather listen to Barbirolli or Handley

So the cycle is probably like most, generally good with some high points.


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## Becca

RobertJTh said:


> I remember, back in the days when record shops still existed, me going for a WV cycle, and the clerk trying to sell me the Haitink. Had to explain that Haitink is the dullest conductor in existence, a sort of King Midas of dullness. With some exceptions (some Shostakovich, a Mahler or two, and a bit of French repertoire, maybe 5% of what he recorded).


I wouldn't go that far but Haitink is one of those conductors who I feel that I ought to like more ... but I don't.


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## RobertJTh

Becca said:


> I wouldn't go that far but Haitink is one of those conductors who I feel that I ought to like more ... but I don't.


Yeah... I realize I'm exaggerating a bit. But it's a strange thing with us Dutch, we tend to be proud of our inferiority complex while being not aware of our chauvinist side.
So you got the weird phenomenon that when Haitink left the CGO (and started re-recording the same repertoire with foreign orchestras that he did much better with the CGO) the newspapers captioned "HAITINK - TOO BIG FOR HOLLAND". That kinda says it all. "Our country isn't anything special, but this singular Dutch guy, wow!"
And of course everything he did afterwards was lauded in the national press, the same way British musicians get the "our boys" treatment in the UK press. In fact, I think he got more positive reviews when he left than when he was still here. (Remember that Berlin Mahler 5th with the 15 minutes adagietto? That got a 10/10 in a classical magazine here).
And when he occasionally returned to the CGO as the prodigal son... national hysteria.
Closet chauvinism, I call it.


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## Becca

...and didn't the CGO snub him a few years ago for some celebration? I seem to remember having read about him getting rather p*ed off about it.


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## RobertJTh

Becca said:


> ...and didn't the CGO snub him a few years ago for some celebration? I seem to remember having read about him getting rather p*ed off about it.


He was never an easy guy to deal with, and in his last years with the CGO the situation was almost identical to Karajan/BPO. Everyone basically got sick of him after a way too long tenure with the orchestra. So they split on bad terms and it wasn't until much later that they reconciled (in what was more like a publicity stunt than a musical event). Don't know what happened afterwards that made him fall out with the orchestra once more, but again, he was a very difficult person, in many ways the antithesis of a big personality" conductor, but with an ego that was just as inflated.


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## golfer72

Becca said:


> I can't speak for the others, not having heard them, but his 1st (Sea) is at the top of my list.


I like the Sea Symphony a lot as well. Others dont seem to as much


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## scott.stucky48

I an a huge RVW fan. To the original questions: 1. 1-3 and 5; 2, 1: Boult EMI stereo; 2. Hickox, Previn RPO, and Boult mono; 3. Previn. 5. Boult mono, 3. Boult Decca mono.


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## hoodjem

Becca said:


> 5 - Royal Liverpool PO / Vernon Handley


This is my favorite VW symphony, and this is also the recording that I believe is best.

But he wrote so much beautiful music:
The Lark Acending
Norfold Rhapsodies
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus
In the Fen
Phantasy Quintet
Two Hymn-Tune Preludes


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## hoodjem

Markbridge said:


> Another composer I've recently discovered is English composer William Alwyn. I bought all of his symphonies and concertos and, quite frankly, there's not a dud in the lot. And his "Fanfare for a Joyful Occasion" is just that, joyful.
> 
> Anyway, I'm envious. There's nothing like the joy of discovering new composers and their music. Happy hunting!


Agree with you 100% on RVW. I am going to check out Alwyn.

Do you know the works of Gerald Finzi? 
Take a listen to the Eclogue, Introit, Romance, Severn Rhapsody, Prelude, and Nocturne.
All lovely but wistful and melancholy.


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## Becca

Also check out Edmund Rubbra and William Mathias


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## starthrower

Rubbra nos. 6 & 8 on the Lyrita label is an excellent recording. Also Malcolm Arnold symphonies on Naxos conducted by Penny. The Boult 13 CD RVW box is great if you can find it. Martinu symphonies is another good cycle to explore. There are several sets to choose from including Jarvi, Thomson, and Belohlávek.


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## Waehnen

I have the full cycle conducted by Haitink but I admit to not really getting the music. Undoubtedtly I should adjust my listening somehow to enjoy it. At this moment I just have a feeling that we are not dealing with a first rate symphonist here. Like always, I hope to be proven wrong.


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## Becca

What's with this "*we* are not dealing with a first rate symphonist here"? You may not think so but that doesn't make it a generalized fact ('we') that requires disproving.


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## Forster

Becca said:


> What's with this "*we* are not dealing with a first rate symphonist here"? You may not think so but that doesn't make it a generalized fact ('we') that requires disproving.


We are a hive, doncha know?


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## Becca

Forster said:


> We are a hive, doncha know?


I categorically refused to be assimilated.


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## Malx

Now, now folks beehave.


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## Kreisler jr

Is pseudo modest plural use so uncommon in English usage? I didn't think so.


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## Forster

Kreisler jr said:


> Is pseudo modest plural use so uncommon in English usage? I didn't think so.


It's not whether it's common (or what it is), but how it is used and what it implies that is being countered.


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## wkasimer

Forster said:


> It's not whether it's common (or what it is), but how it is used and what it implies that is being countered.


Right; it implies consensus that doesn't actually exist.


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## Waehnen

Becca said:


> What's with this "*we* are not dealing with a first rate symphonist here"? You may not think so but that doesn't make it a generalized fact ('we') that requires disproving.





Waehnen said:


> At this moment I just have a feeling that we are not dealing with a first rate symphonist here. Like always, I hope to be proven wrong.


That is what I wrote, not the a few words you quoted. With my modest skills in English, what I wrote above is exactly how I would write it even now.

Is this idiomatic language? "I have a feeling _*I am*_ not dealing with an honest politician here."

"I have a feeling _*we are*_ not dealing with an honest politician here" is more idiomatic language, I think.

But I suppose you Becca know the language better than me!


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## Becca

Had you said "It is my opinion that RVW is not a first rate symphonist" then their would have been no issues other than general disagreement, however you said "we are not..." which implies that it is a general truth which, as wkasimer noted, is absolutely not correct. I highlighted your use of the word 'we', which is plural, as being the offending item ... unless of course you are using the 'royal we', which I certainly hope is not the case!


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## Forster

Waehnen said:


> That is what I wrote, not the a few words you quoted. With my modest skills in English, what I wrote above is exactly how I would write it even now.
> 
> Is this idiomatic language? "I have a feeling _*I am*_ not dealing with an honest politician here."
> 
> "I have a feeling _*we are*_ not dealing with and honest politician here" is more idiomatic language, I think.
> 
> But I suppose you Becca know the language better than me!


Not modest English skills: your English is of a good standard.

Besides, not even native speakers are able to manage some of the subtleties and nuances of the language.


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## Waehnen

Becca said:


> Had you said "It is my opinion that RVW is not a first rate symphonist" then their would have been no issues other than general disagreement, however you said "we are not..." which implies that it is a general truth which, as wkasimer noted, is absolutely not correct. I highlighted your use of the word 'we', which is plural, as being the offending item ... unless of course you are using the 'royal we', which I certainly hope is not the case!


Then I truly have misunderstood this aspect of using the English language. Even in Finnish you can use the plurar the way I did without suggesting that everyone would think the same way, which of course was not my intention.

In Finnish: "Meillä taitaa olla tässä toisen luokan sinfonikko."
Google translates: "I think we have a second-rate symphonist here."

I think my opinion was hurtful to some, and I apologize for that -- even though I have the wisdom to know that my thoughts on this composer will likely change once I really get the hang of the music.

@Becca, please recommend me a Vaughan Williams symphony! You know by now what kind of stuff I like. My problem at the moment is that much of the music sounds the same in my ears. Consonant harmonies. The Sea Symphony sounds very skilled, though. I remember also liking the 3rd after listening to it after Forster recommended it. But I have yet to find the wow factor. I haven´t gotten any serious kicks out of the music. Please suggest me something!


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## Kreisler jr

wkasimer said:


> Right; it implies consensus that doesn't actually exist.


I find taking offense at some phrasing like that is pedantic and far more annoying than the original "offense".

First of all, there is a clear marker of tentative personal opinion preceding the statement "_At this moment I just have a feeling _that we are not dealing with a first rate symphonist".

Second, if instead of "At this moment I just have a feeling that we are not dealing with a first rate symphonist" he had written simply: "At this moment I just have a feeling that RVW is not a first rate symphonist..." he would have stated it plainly as a fact. Would people then take offense that he had claimed a personal opinion as objective fact? This would have been silly.
Because that's just how people write, especially if they have already put a phrase before the statement marking it as a opinion like the one I put in Italics.
Obviously, many contributors in a thread on RWV might think his work is first rate, but it's in no way controversial to disagree.


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## Forster

I take offense at the idea that anyone is "taking offense"...


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## Becca

@Waehnen ... 'we' is a collective term so is appropriate if the context indicates what collection you are referring to (e.g. my family), but if you used it in a generalized manner then it implies a much larger group (everyone at TC, everyone who listens to CM, ...) which immediately becomes problematic when referring to something which is a matter of opinion.


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## Becca

Waehnen said:


> @Becca, please recommend me a Vaughan Williams symphony! You know by now what kind of stuff I like. My problem at the moment is that much of the music sounds the same in my ears. Consonant harmonies. The Sea Symphony sounds very skilled, though. I remember also liking the 3rd after listening to it after Forster recommended it. But I have yet to find the wow factor. I haven´t gotten any serious kicks out of the music. Please suggest me something!


I'm not going to make suggestions because based on the Mahler discussions, it is clear to me that I don't really comprehend what works for you. I can only suggest that you explore and give yourself time and exposure before making negative judgments.


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## Waehnen

Becca said:


> I'm not going to make suggestions because based on the Mahler discussions, it is clear to me that I don't really comprehend what works for you. I can only suggest that you explore and give yourself time and exposure before making negative judgments.


I just listened to the 9th. It is fine and beautiful music but lacks high profile gestures in my ears. The symphony does not really tell me why I should listen to it.

There has been enough of exposure now for I have been letting the symphonies play at the background for some time. I need more concentrated listening on Vaughan Williams, I think.


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## Becca

The 9th seems to be a problematic work for many, myself included.


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## golfer72

"I just have a feeling that we are not dealing " Nothing wrong with this. He said he has a feeling. That means him not anyone else. By we he meant everyone dealing with RVW Symphonies with no positive or negative connotations


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## Waehnen

@Becca , is that Rebecca you? Should I read that article as your RVW recommendations for me? 





__





Which is the best Vaughan Williams Symphony? | Classical Music


Which is the best Vaughan Williams symphony? Author Rebecca Franks shares her personal ranking of all nine masterpieces by the great British composer



www.classical-music.com





I will do some more concentrated listening from now on. Let´s see where I will land. ATM I have a feeling Vaughan Williams has an unique style which means I need to adjust my listening a bit in order to really HEAR.


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## Becca

No it is not me. Moreover I mostly disagree with her opinions.


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## Waehnen

Becca said:


> No it is not me. Moreover I mostly disagree with her opinions.


But I did listen to the 5th after her recommendation and I can say that I liked it more than the 9th.

What is your favourite RVW Symphony? (Not that you recommend anything to anybody.)


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## Montarsolo

I have this Vaughan Williams box with Boult. I've never listened to this one. Which symphony do you recommend to get acquainted with RVW? I only know the Antartica from an LP.











Vaughan Williams, Sir Adrian Boult, London Philharmonic Orchestra, New Philharmonia Orchestra, London Symphony Orchestra - The Complete Symphonies, Orchestral Works


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 2000 CD release of "The Complete Symphonies, Orchestral Works" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com


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## Becca

The symphonies are really quite different from each other so it often depends on what you are in the mood for. I would probably put them into 3 groups based on my frequency of listening...

A. 2nd (London)
5th
8th

B. 1st (Sea)
4th
6th

C. 3rd
7th
9th

Note that putting the 1st into the second group does not imply that I like it less, but because I am not so likely to be in the mood for a large scale choral work.

I suppose that the 2nd and 8th are the 'tightest' (whatever that means) in terms of structure and so worth investigating, but even there I have to admit that I prefer the original 1913 version of the 2nd which, while a bit rambling, contains some marvelously evocative music which RVW cut out in his two revisions (1920 and 1933/36).


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## AndorFoldes

I have to make a confession. I haven't found a single symphony by Vaughan Williams that I really like, and it's not for lack of trying. No doubt there is greatness in his music, and having another nine symphonies to enjoy would be wonderful. But alas, it has never clicked. Can't think of any other major symphonist for which that is true.


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## marlow

AndorFoldes said:


> I have to make a confession. I haven't found a single symphony by Vaughan Williams that I really like, and it's not for lack of trying. No doubt there is greatness in his music, and having another nine symphonies to enjoy would be wonderful. But alas, it has never clicked. Can't think of any other major symphonist for which that is true.


Brahms for me


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## Waehnen

Let us try this! I do appreciate Rattle. If he as an Englishman would understand the music somehow better than Haitink?


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## Becca

This was a rather surprising performance as Rattle never seems to have had much interest in RVW, my only complaint is with the quality of the sound. My preferred version of the 5th is with Vernon Handley and the Royal Liverpool Phil. which seems to nicely catch the underlying tension in the symphony, i.e. it isn't all serenity.


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## Waehnen

It would seem that I need one musical moment that convinces me, and after that one thing clicks, it operates as a key to unlock the rest. For example, I had no trust in Mahler whatsoever in the beginning but it was @RobertJTh who pointed me towards the direction of the Andante of the 6th. There I for the first time heard something from Mahler that clicked and of which I had to say 'no mediocre composer could compose this, maybe this is worth my effort after all'.

I need something similar from Vaughan Williams.


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## starthrower

I suggest trying some different conductors besides Haitink. Listen to the Boult stereo recordings. I just got the Previn cycle and the performance that impressed me the most after the first listening session is the London Symphony. I do want to get hold of the Handley set as well but I'll have to spend 85-90 dollars for the Collector's Edition.


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## Neo Romanza

starthrower said:


> I suggest trying some different conductors besides Haitink. Listen to the Boult stereo recordings. I just got the Previn cycle and the performance that impressed me the most after the first listening session is the London Symphony. I do want to get hold of the Handley set as well but I'll have to spend 85-90 dollars for the Collector's Edition.


Yeah, I never liked the Haitink cycle. One of the problems with the Handley set is the audio fidelity. It's low volume and, while I do like Handley's conducting usually, I don't think his Vaughan Williams is particularly distinctive --- it's just kind plain-faced. Boult (EMI) and Previn are my two top cycles with Thomson on Chandos coming in third place.


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## starthrower

The Boult, and Previn cycles both date from late 60s to early 70s and the sound is very good. After looking at that Collector's Edition, I decided it's not worth 90 dollars for my needs. The 13 CD Boult box covers all the essentials. And according to a review I read, the older EMI Collector's Edition came with a much more comprehensive booklet that was whittled down from 40 to 14 pages in the new Warner edition.


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## Waehnen

Neo Romanza said:


> Yeah, I never liked the Haitink cycle. One of the problems with the Handley set is the audio fidelity. It's low volume and, while I do like Handley's conducting usually, I don't think his Vaughan Williams is particularly distinctive --- it's just kind plain-faced. Boult (EMI) and Previn are my two top cycles with Thomson on Chandos coming in third place.





starthrower said:


> The Boult, and Previn cycles both date from late 60s to early 70s and the sound is very good. After looking at that Collector's Edition, I decided it's not worth 90 dollars for my needs. The 13 CD Boult box covers all the essentials. And according to a review I read, the older EMI Collector's Edition came with a much more comprehensive booklet that was whittled down from 40 to 14 pages in the new Warner edition.


Thanks, Neo and Star! I might get myself the Previn cycle. The Haitink cycle is not for me although atm I do not know whether it is the symphonies themselves or the interpretations that do not click with me. They leave me totally cold.


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## starthrower

I don't find VW's music cold at all but Haitink may take a cooler approach so give Boult, and Previn a try.


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## Waehnen

starthrower said:


> I don't find VW's music cold at all but Haitink may take a cooler approach so give Boult, and Previn a try.


I am not saying the music is cold. At least in Finnish we have the expression that one is left cold if one doesn´t warm up to something. I am not sure if "They leave me totally cold" is good English. Sorry.


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## starthrower

Waehnen said:


> I am not saying the music is cold. At least in Finnish we have the expression that one is left cold if one doesn´t warm up to something. I am not sure if "They leave me totally cold" is good English. Sorry.


That's fine for English too. As I said it could be Haitink's way of interpreting the music or simply your feeling about it.


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## Neo Romanza

Waehnen said:


> I am not saying the music is cold. At least in Finnish we have the expression that one is left cold if one doesn´t warm up to something. I am not sure if "They leave me totally cold" is good English. Sorry.


Ah, you're a Finn?!?!? Cool!  I've never been to your country, but I'd love to go and visit the Sibelius monument, grave and his home, Ainola. I'll be sure to visit in the summer months.


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