# Women Composers



## stepnwolf (May 29, 2010)

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, may I bring up another matter that has occupied a couple of spare thoughts? Going down the list of composers in my collection, I find only one recognizable female, Sofia Gubaidulina. Why?

Am I an unconscious misogynist? Or, horrible dictu, do women as a sex lack that creative impulse? Nonsense! Maybe, just maybe, women have diverted that impulse into birthing babies and rearing them. Or, does our patriarchal society consistently ignore the works of the fair sex, refusing them a fair hearing? 

What do you think?


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Not at all. You missed a good thread a while back, exploring women composers. Maybe that's because you're just a newbie? 

Welcome anyway.

You couldn't be an unconscious misogynist if you're asking the question. Unfortunately, you could just errr...umm....ahhhh....welll....oooh...be....'ignorant' of women composers?

Here's some of my favourites:

*Sofia Gubaidulina* - as you've mentioned. I like her three string quartets a lot. 
*Crawford-Seeger* - I've only come to know of her 1931 (?) string quartet recently - quite an experience.
*Elizabeth Maconchy* - an Irish immigrant, who was knighted (there's misogyny in the English language for you. How do you 'knight' a woman? ). ANYWAY. Her string quartet oeuvre repels any pathetic British 20th century output into oblivion. All those useless men like Elgar, Britten, Bridge, Wiliams (ok - not Rubbra or Moeran) trying to write a single string quartet and failing on several levels, whereas Dame Elizabeth Maconchy wrote 15, distilling the British expression of the string quartet to the highest form). 
*Helena Firsova *- this is the wife of Edison Denisov. They have a remarkable output, although I'm always more interested to hear more from Firsova, as engaging as Denisov's work is. 
*Galina Ustokovalaya *(sp?) - shame she hasn't written any string quartet works yet.
*Grayzna Bacewicz *- this is a Polish modern composer whose work is very striking. I love her string quartets, of which there are 7, and her two piano quintets. 
*Nadia Boulanger *- how can you NOT know of Nadia? The inspiration behind the French neoclassical movement? 
*Tailleferre* - from the French 'Les Six'. 
*Bodorova *- before her extermination in the second world war, she left a substantial string quartet and other works. I don't know the other works - just her string quartet.

There are plenty of others, although I guess hierarchies in the old paternalistic society ensure that women composers are obliterated or marginalised unfairly 

Thinking about *Hildegard van Bingen*, as well as other polyphony female composers...hmm..chorale music there is a distinct repertoire out there which I'm not familiar with.

I suppose if there is any truth in women diverting their impulse into giving birth to babies and rearing them, then it is men who equally lack that responsibility for their actions in ensuring that they do not suppress women into roles which enable men themselves, to live out their own insecurities


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## Boccherini (Mar 29, 2010)

stepnwolf said:


> At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, may I bring up another matter that has occupied a couple of spare thoughts? Going down the list of composers in my collection, I find only one recognizable female, Sofia Gubaidulina. Why?
> 
> Am I an unconscious misogynist? Or, horrible dictu, do women as a sex lack that creative impulse? Nonsense! Maybe, just maybe, women have diverted that impulse into birthing babies and rearing them. *Or, does our patriarchal society consistently ignore the works of the fair sex, refusing them a fair hearing?*
> 
> What do you think?


Quite pretentious, that statement/speculation is.

I think part of the answer might be historical - the ancient world's state of mind, when women had fewer rights as a result of their low social class and therefore - by their own choice or not - they didn't integrate much in culture as a whole. However, the other part of the answer might be philosophical...


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## stepnwolf (May 29, 2010)

Head_case said:


> Not at all. You missed a good thread a while back, exploring women composers. Maybe that's because you're just a newbie?
> 
> Welcome anyway.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, very ignorant... and absent minded as well. I forgot Nadia Boulenger and her sister, Lili, because I was looking only at my own collection. Dear Hildegard was certainly exceptional in her day as well as ours but I have failed to collect any of her compositions. I appreciate the names of the other female composers in your list and, lacking your tact, may I ask how you've gathered so much information, which you must admit is unusual? If one were to draw a conclusion, one might suspect that your interest is more than academic.

Thank you for your help in clearing up what was for me a mystery.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I think the issue is that there are simply less composers who were women, and not necessarily they were downplayed, and they aren't now. However, women probably were discouraged from becoming composers a long time ago, because it didn't fit their role.

Some other women composers I know (not yet named):
Amy Beach (romantic)
Cecile Chaminade (romantic)
Katherine Hoover (contemporary)
Clara Schumann (romantic)

I've heard, even played, works by some of these women. What's really ironic is when I hear them actually sound masculine-- more masculine than men composers!


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

stepnwolf said:


> At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, may I bring up another matter that has occupied a couple of spare thoughts? Going down the list of composers in my collection, I find only one recognizable female, Sofia Gubaidulina. Why?
> 
> Am I an unconscious misogynist? Or, horrible dictu, do women as a sex lack that creative impulse? Nonsense! Maybe, just maybe, women have diverted that impulse into birthing babies and rearing them. Or, does our patriarchal society consistently ignore the works of the fair sex, refusing them a fair hearing?
> 
> What do you think?


Here we go again.

http://www.talkclassical.com/6431-who-greatest-female-composers.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/7258-lady-composers-how-odd-2.html

In these two threads you'll find all that can be said on this tired old subject has been said.


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## stepnwolf (May 29, 2010)

Opal said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/6431-who-greatest-female-composers.html
> 
> ...


My apologies, Opal
Your links go back to 2008-2009 and I've been here only a couple days. I'm reading as much as I can, but haven't made it back that far. The Forum has impressed me so much that I was eager to make contributions. It may be a tired old subject to you, but it is new and puzzling to me.

Another reason people may leave is that their first efforts are met with impatience and rudeness.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I love the music of Louise Farrenc. Especially her second symphony and her chamber music. Her sextet for piano, flute, oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon is VERY good.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Grayzna Bacewicz


What?

ggrjhyjjt7


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

stepnwolf said:


> My apologies, Opal
> Your links go back to 2008-2009 and I've been here only a couple days.


Are you sure about that? Perhaps you would like to re-check the start dates of the threads to which I referred. I think you will find that they are both under a year old, and finished some 5-7 months ago. Both threads are easy to find using the search facility, and if anyone has anything new to say on the matter it is obviously far better to see it in the context of previous discussion. Would you not agree?


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

Aramis said:


> What?
> 
> ggrjhyjjt7


I think you mean "who".

Does This help?

Who cares if her name was mis-spelled? It happens all the time.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Opal said:


> I think you mean "who".
> 
> Does This help?
> 
> Who cares if her name was mis-spelled? It happens all the time.


I know who she was, and the mis-spelling can be the problem for someone that doesn't and would like to check her music. Google will probebly correct Grayzna to proper form but no everybodyt goes straight to google and internet as a whole when he want to listen to something new. And it would be problematic to walk in CD store and say:

- any recordings of Grayzna Bacewicz? 
- Please, write the same for me, I'll check in catalogue


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

stepnwolf said:


> Oh yes, very ignorant... and absent minded as well. I forgot Nadia Boulenger and her sister, Lili, because I was looking only at my own collection. Dear Hildegard was certainly exceptional in her day as well as ours but I have failed to collect any of her compositions. I appreciate the names of the other female composers in your list and, lacking your tact, may I ask how you've gathered so much information, which you must admit is unusual? If one were to draw a conclusion, one might suspect that your interest is more than academic.
> 
> Thank you for your help in clearing up what was for me a mystery.


Hi there,

don't worry about some of us giving you a baptism of fire for raising anything like a disparity between men:women composers 

Now that we've made you've feel welcome and you're staying....actually I don't have any of Nadia (nor sis) Boulanger's recordings. I only know of her because of her 'inspiration' to the neoclassical movement and works by composers who have found produced works in greater quantity than Nadia, their inspiration.

I um....don't think I have any specialist knowledge at all. I just happen to have very narrow interests in classical music. I'm no academic btw. I just come across that way lol, probably because I stuck it out at university for about 10 years collecting various pieces of paper which aren't very important. That way, because I'm specifically interested in chamber music (string quartet form = bread + butter for me; a Friday night out would be a binge session of a complete cycle of string quartets. An off-day, I will bring in a flute or cello sonata or harpsichord solo or concerto. On a double whammer of an evening, will try a double expresso and blueberry muffin alongside a tube amplifier cranking out full throttle through the Dali loudspeakers in the peace and solitude of my city apartment when the neighbours are out getting pissed 

What you're asking isn't that contentious imho. When I look at my collection - male composers outnumber female composers by far. I guess when I turned my back on orchestral and symphonic forms of music, I was interested in finding out specific genres of string quartet music; from specific places; by specific kinds of writers (under duress; in war; after war; in peace) etc.

In contrast, my alternative/folk/indie music collection has a huge disparity: I have about 80% female vocalists: 20% male singers/bands. In my classical collection, the opposite is true.

Do women bring anything unique to their music? That is... is gender in music composition important?

Other arts have to answer similar questions; painting; sculpture, photography; literature. I don't think there's any concrete answer, however asking the question is important to us: that's a first step in raising awareness of one's own limitations, and starting that journey - of exploring what's out there


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

> - any recordings of Grayzna Bacewicz?
> - Please, write the same for me, I'll check in catalogue


I've seen her christian name spellt several ways, and invariably wrongly when I try to write it 

I think I've got most of her chamber works ever released on the now defunct Olympia record label. They were based in London, where I live so availability was really good and they used to send the free catalogue and taster CDs out to regulars. I amassed all 3 discs lol after working in some horrible fashion store called "Topman" selling bling clothing for teenagers earning something like £3.50 per hour back then. I'd do a morning shift and be able to afford to buy a CD by the afternoon lol.

Btw - if you're interested in her chamber works, the Amar Corde String quartet have released her complete string quartets. The Olympia performances are period recordings, however legendary they are, they are unlikely to ever come back into print until someone buys the rights to distribute them from Polskie Nagrania again


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

*Kaija Saariaho!*


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Oops. I didn't realise Saariaho was female lol. 

*blush*


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

*Kaija Saariaho*


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

There are (& have been) quite a number of female composers here in Australia, some of the more prominent ones:

Anne Boyd (1946-)
Peggy Glanville-Hicks (1912-90)
Moya Henderson (1941-)
Miriam Hyde (1913-2005)
Elena Kats-Chernin (1957-)
Liza Lim (1966-)
Margaret Sutherland (1897-1984)


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2010)

Amy Beach is my favorite female composer, as well as one of my favorite composers in general. I would like to branch out into this category more, though. Another good topic would be "favorite African-American composers."


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Andre said:


> There are (& have been) quite a number of female composers here in Australia, some of the more prominent ones:
> 
> Anne Boyd (1946-)
> Peggy Glanville-Hicks (1912-90)
> ...


I really like Glanville-Hicks' three gymnopedies.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Some more:

Eliane Radigue
Pauline Oliveiros
Annie Gosfield
Meredith Monk
Wendy Carlos (debatable)


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Head_case said:


> *Elizabeth Maconchy* - an Irish immigrant, who was knighted (there's misogyny in the English language for you. How do you 'knight' a woman? ). ...


Maconchy wasn't knighted. I assume you're not British and don't understand our honours system (why should you?), but the most casual of glances at Wikipedia would have told you that "She received a CBE [Companion of the British Empire] in 1977. ... Maconchy was made a Dame of the British Empire in 1987." So, sorry, no misogyny here; you'll have to look elsewhere for it.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Maconchy wasn't knighted. I assume you're not British and don't understand our honours system (why should you?), but the most casual of glances at Wikipedia would have told you that "She received a CBE [Companion of the British Empire] in 1977. ... Maconchy was made a Dame of the British Empire in 1987." So, sorry, no misogyny here; you'll have to look elsewhere for it.


Don't be such a d*** Jeremy. If you can't see humour, then try and understand that many English (yes - maybe we're not provincial British like those in the Cotswold lol understand CBE as

*C*ommander of the *B*ritish *E*mpire.



> Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire (GBE) or Dame Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire (GBE)
> Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (KBE) or Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire (DBE)
> *Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE)*
> Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE)
> Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE)


Here you go: have a read and understand truly just how prejudicial the honours system has always been, right from its historical derivation of the root concept of 'chivalry':
*
http://www.debretts.com/people/honours/orders-of-chivalry/order-of-the-british-empire.aspx*

Dame Maconchy is still fabulous!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre (1665 - 1729), French.

I have some of her works, including her harpsichord suites performed by Elizabeth Farr (Naxos).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élisabeth_Jacquet_de_La_Guerre#List_of_works


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if somebody's already shared this in one of the other women composers threads, but this is from Jennifer Higdon's percussion concerto, and it's pretty cool:


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Meaghan said:


> I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if somebody's already shared this in one of the other women composers threads, but this is from Jennifer Higdon's percussion concerto, and it's pretty cool:


Cool indeed!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if somebody's already shared this in one of the other women composers threads, but this is from Jennifer Higdon's percussion concerto, and it's pretty cool:


I am much more interested in her piano concerto (2006) but I can't seem to locate it on youtube. Her oboe concerto (2005), too. Anyone?


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## Jules141 (Nov 20, 2009)

Someone did an interesting blog 'bout it innit:

http://zanyzigzag.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/classical-music-where-are-all-the-women/


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