# Simon B Question



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's just occurred to me that the politics in Simon Boccanegra are pretty strange. Fiesco - a patrician - is ousted, and goes into opposition. I guess as the plebeians come to power with Boccanegra. Lorenzino and Paolo conspire to get Simon into the doge's seat, and so they're all on the same side here, except for Fiesco. So far so good.

But when Amelia pops up as the faux heiress of the Grimaldis, we find Lorenzino in opposition. Are we supposed to think that because Paolo couldn't have Amelia he switched sides, joined the patricians, and took Lorenzino with him? Timewise that doesn't make sense, since Paolo thought he might could get Amelia up until their fateful meeting, right?

And what is Fiesco's position in the Grimaldi household? He seems to be her adoptive parent - but he's not playing the head of household, or her role wouldn't be required, right? I mean, she plays Grimaldi so the properties won't be attached by the Doge - so what is he playing? Adorno obviously takes him for her father, but doesn't seem to question his role at all.

Well? I'm just not playing it loud enough, right? It'll all make sense if I just turn it up?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> It's just occurred to me that the politics in Simon Boccanegra are pretty strange. Fiesco - a patrician - is ousted, and goes into opposition. I guess as the plebeians come to power with Boccanegra. Lorenzino and Paolo conspire to get Simon into the doge's seat, and so they're all on the same side here, except for Fiesco. So far so good.
> 
> But when Amelia pops up as the faux heiress of the Grimaldis, we find Lorenzino in opposition. Are we supposed to think that because Paolo couldn't have Amelia he switched sides, joined the patricians, and took Lorenzino with him? Timewise that doesn't make sense, since Paolo thought he might could get Amelia up until their fateful meeting, right?
> 
> ...


Oh heck, it's such a convoluted plot. I can recommend this book anyway.

It's established early on that Lorenzin is on the side of the Fieschi & it's Paolo & Pietro who conspire to get Simon elected Doge. So you've got Paulo, Pietro & the Doge on the same side. Adorno, Fiesco & Lorenzin are on the other. Fiesco (now calling himself Andrea) goes into hiding.

Presumably the Grimaldis didn't have any heirs so that's why they adopted the orphan. Not sure the connection between Fiesco and the Grimaldis though. Some sort of advisor, legal counsel? Anyway he's Amelia's guardian & Adorno accepts him as such.

The Doge has promised Paulo that he can marry Amelia (being ruler he has the power I suppose) but when the Doge finds out she's his daughter he changes his mind & tells Paulo he can't have her. Paulo is furious & he changes sides & plots with Pietro to take Amelia hostage.

Even though it's my favourite opera there are parts of it I still don't understand so maybe your idea of just turning up the volume is best. :lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> It's established early on that Lorenzin is on the side of the Fieschi & it's Paolo & Pietro who conspire to get Simon elected Doge. So you've got Paulo, Pietro & the Doge on the same side. Adorno, Fiesco & Lorenzin are on the other. Fiesco (now calling himself Andrea) goes into hiding.


Oh that's right, I was thinking it was Lorenzino that Paolo conspired with but it was Pietro, wasn't it. Dang. So the first time we hear of Lorenzino he's on Fiesco's side and therefore a patrician to begin with. That makes sense.



> Presumably the Grimaldis didn't have any heirs so that's why they adopted the orphan. Not sure the connection between Fiesco and the Grimaldis though. Some sort of advisor, legal counsel? Anyway he's Amelia's guardian & Adorno accepts him as such.


Well no, you remember Fiesco told Adorno that Amelia was just a place-holder for the real Amelia - to prevent Boccanegra from taking the property. The implication being that since her "brothers" were in exile they couldn't exercise their property rights - but evidently she could.

I suppose we could imagine that when the real Amelia died, in the convent, Fiesco had already begun to provide for the little girl, due to her big brown eyes or something, and when he found out the Grimaldis needed help, he got the little girl moved to the vacant room in the convent, as part of the scheme to help the Grimaldis hold onto their land.

But how would Fiesco be explained to visitors like Adorno? As one of the minions in Despicable Me? "He is my ... cousin." :lol: All right then~!

One of the funniest things about opera is how little sense it all makes but how important it is anyway. It doesn't matter! He was like her dad! Move on!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Well no, you remember Fiesco told Adorno that Amelia was just a place-holder for the real Amelia - to prevent Boccanegra from taking the property. The implication being that since her "brothers" were in exile they couldn't exercise their property rights - but evidently she could.


Oh of course. And when the Doge pardons her brothers, as a gesture of her gratitude (eh??) she tells him she's an imposter :lol:



guythegreg said:


> One of the funniest things about opera is how little sense it all makes but how important it is anyway. It doesn't matter! He was like her dad! Move on!


Yep!!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I read thris thread and I still can't follow the plot


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> I read thris thread and I still can't follow the plot


Yes, I agree. I thought I had a tenuous grip on what was going on and now it turns out that I haven't got a clue!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

The fine points of the plot has always been pretty murky for me too, and this thread sure didn't clear it up any. 

As a point of reference, the Fiesco and Grimaldi were actual historical families, significant enough to merit their own Wiki pages. The Fiesco produced few popes and one saint along the way, and the royal family of Monaco are actually the descendents of the House of Grimaldi. 

Anyway, I'll just stick with the simplified cast of characters that works for me to keep track of who's who:

Simon

Simon's daughter

Simon's daughter's mother's father

Simon's daughter's special dude

Simon's daughter's stalker dude

Angry mob #1

Angry mob #2


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

^^^^:lol: :lol:


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm sometimes trying to make sense of the whole Amelia backstory and just get a headache. How old is she during the Prologue? Old enough to remember the old lady who was looking after her very vividly. So I'd say 4-5 at least. Which means she's pushing 30 after the time skip and still a maiden? And then there is the logistics of where Maria was when she gave birth. If Fiesco kept her locked up, "Amelia" couldn't have ended up in Simon's care. If she at some point ran away with Simon and gave birth, then how did she end up back at her dad's house, without the baby? Just how many years did she spend locked up? What did she die from, anyway? Being A Mother In An Opera Disease? Suicide? 

Lorenzino tho... what is his deal? Paolo says he sold out to the Fieschi. Okay. He's later conspiring with Fiesco and Gabriele. Still okay. But then he also helps Paolo and Pietro with the whole kidnapping? Amelia rolls a nat 20 on Intimidate and runs off. Gabriele somehow - how? - finds out he was involved and shanks him. Fiesco is presumably also there and then the angry mob drags them to the council. 

And then there is that whole "Fiesco raised Amelia for 25 years and somehow never noticed her pendant had his late daughter's picture" thing. Least observant character in all of opera. Meanwhile Simon unlocks her Tragic Backstory in about 3 minutes. 

I still love this opera


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

If I tried to figure out 1.) how one could throw her own baby into the fire by accident or, 2.) a groom on his wedding night who, when he hears the sound of a horn says to his bride, "sorry hon but I have to kill myself. I made a promise", Or 3.) A lover who meets his veiled beloved in the garden in the dark, hears her voice yet has no clue that it is her lady-in-waiting instead. Or, 4.) A father who, instead of immediately calling for a doctor when he discovers his own daughter in a sack almost dead, sits and bemoans her fate until she breathes her last. Or,5.) a father who isn't REALLY Rachel's father, so he allows her to boil in oil. Or 6.) a father who, until he saw the picture of his deceased wife in a locket around the neck of his daughter, never realized till then that she was his daughter ... Figliaaaaa!

A person could develop a very bad headache.

Just sit back and enjoy the beautiful music.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Libretti just... be like that. It's best not to think too hard.

Still better writing than GoT Season 8.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's nice to think that music can justify any nonsense onstage, but a plotline that lacks focus or defies comprehension is a liability. It took me decades to get around to listening to _Boccanegra_, probably because looking at the synopsis put me in an instant coma, and I suspect others have felt similarly blocked from discovering the work's merits.

I don't know how Verdi managed to get excited about some of his plots, but there is something to the idea that his (and others') most popular operas feature clear dramatic structures and distinctive, sympathetic characters. Cerebral concerns such as political intrigue are fine as background, but they're hard to care about for their own sake, and not very conducive to musical expression. _Boccanegra_ deserves to be performed, but many people will never get beyond the well-known soprano and bass arias.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

The big emotional moments hit, but I really wonder why Boito didn't try to rewrite some details to make the story a bit less convoluted. Also: it would have been nice to have a duet between Amelia and Fiesco because they don't interact enough. 

Also: Simone. Honey. How did you survive 25 years in politics when you just leave your drink out in the open like that.


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