# Bach: Threat or menace?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A conductor turns to historical research! Sir John, with way too much time on his hands, writes of sufficient evidence "to dent the traditional image of Bach as an exemplary youth...surviving unscathed the sinister goings-on in the schools he attended. It is just as credible that [he] ... was in a line of delinquent school prefects -- a reformed teenage thug." See Gardiner's thoughts at

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/sep/21/secret-bach-teenage-thug


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

This is very interesting, KenOC. Recently ArtMusik posted a documentary about Bach's life and work hosted by Gardiner (



). As I watched it, I was amused by his excitement over letters and other primary documents concerning Bach; he makes the claims about Bach's schooldays from the article you linked to in the biopic. I'd assumed that the film was intended to show off general changes in the state of Bach scholarship rather than presenting Gardiner's pet theories. This explains why the film seemed somewhat off (in a good way--I like the fact Gardiner's actually been obsessively digging around in archives rather than pretending to have done so on screen!).


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Interesting. The clip I posted (mentioned by member Blancrocher) already summarised Sir John's own research into Sebastian's school years (before the death of both of his parents at age 9). More specifically, Sir John was suggesting that up until then, Sebastian was much like any other kid from a crowded lower middle class upbringing. But when both parents died when Sebastian was 9 years old, then he moved on to live with one of his cousins (or something like that), and that was when school records showed he did very well at school, not before, when he was still living with his parents.

But by the mid-teens, Sebastian was already well on his way as an organ virtuoso....thank goodness for that!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Well, I would say that a guy who fathered twenty (20) kids is more a sex addict than a saint!.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

sharik said:


> come on... tabloids write rubbish and they'd concoct a story about anyone doing any impossible thing.


Yeah, just look at all the lies they told about Amy Winehouse... 

More on topic, as far as I know Bach could be a bit of a curmudgeon even in later life, and was involved in several lawsuits, the details of which I can't remember anymore. On the positive side, one gets the impression that he himself was kinder to children than the way adults treated him when he was a youth.

But I get a general impression, when reading up on those times, that up to the late 19th century, in many western nations, child rearing was conducted in ways that may strike us as pretty brutal and abusive. In some kids, what doesn't break them will make them stronger. But one has to wonder how many potential geniuses in all fields had their potential destroyed before it even had time to develop.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Well, I would say that a guy who fathered twenty (20) kids is more a sex addict than a saint!.


back then it was *normal* to have that many kids.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Yeah, just look at all the lies they told about Amy Winehouse...


you might no know but Whinehaus lived relatively rcently, while Bach lived hundreds years ago.
i'm also not sure they wrote truth about her either.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

sharik said:


> back then it was *normal* to have that many kids.


Per the article, it was not common to lose that many.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> up to the late 19th century, in many western nations, child rearing was conducted in ways that may strike us as pretty brutal and abusive...one has to wonder how many potential geniuses in all fields had their potential destroyed


destroyed??.. nah, *built up* more likely.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

In the case Gardiner is right... so what?. Most genius people in the art and sciences were not exactly the most "normal" people out there. 
Most of them were egocentric and insufferable.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Per the article, it was not common to lose that many.


it was common to lose children too, back in those times, for there was no public healthcare.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Well, I would say that a guy who fathered twenty (20) kids is more a sex addict than a saint!.


Infant mortality was high. He fathered twenty but half did not survive infancy.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

What-a-shocker-yawn.

In awe, over-revered, both the bio and the music, which I still maintain robs the listener so primed and pumped with the story and the legend from hearing anything the great composer wrote with any feeling of the music's immediacy.

Now, on to Mozart, Tragically poor and short lived Schubert, Beleaguered Beethoven, Tubercular Chopin coughing up blood all over the keyboards of Europe, Tortured Tchaikovsky, _ad infinitum et ad nauseum._

P.s. Article read and post written while listening to 
Bohuslav Martinů - Toccata e Due Canzoni I. Toccata


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

PetrB said:


> What-a-shocker-yawn.
> 
> In awe, over-revered, both the bio and the music, which I still maintain robs the listener so primed and pumped with the story and the legend from hearing anything the great composer wrote with any feeling of the music's immediacy.
> 
> Now, on to Mozart, Tragically poor and short lived Schubert, Beleaguered Beethoven, Tubercular Chopin coughing up blood all over the keyboards of Europe, Tortured Tchaikovsky, _ad infinitum et ad nauseum._


Sorry, if our knowledge appears too elementary to you.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

What are you going on about? 

I was going for too much knowledge on and around the composer, not enough just directly listening to the music on its own without "having to know the story or all about who wrote it."


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Threat or menace?


Neither. Benchmark, possibly, point and source of reference certainly.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I can't tell you the number of times I've walked down the street, peering over my shoulder in fear of Bach creeping up behind me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GGluek said:


> I can't tell you the number of times I've walked down the street, peering over my shoulder in fear of Bach creeping up behind me.


Ya gotta always keep a sharp eye out for them Thuringian Thug Punks.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

GGluek said:


> I can't tell you the number of times I've walked down the street, peering over my shoulder in fear of Bach creeping up behind me.


That statue is watching you!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There are parts of my town where you don't want to walk alone at night, since those gangs of thugs with their brass buttons and wigs will accost you and ask, "Well mate, got a cup of coffee for us, hey?" Bad news!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The composers' biographies I have read were mostly interesting, but had no effect on my appreciation for their music. I think the two interests are parallel. You know what 'they' say about parallel lines...

:wave: They may wave at each other, but they'll never meet.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Punk Rock Bach? :3

................


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> There are parts of my town where you don't want to walk alone at night, since those gangs of thugs with their brass buttons and wigs will accost you and ask, "Well mate, got a cup of coffee for us, hey?" Bad news!


Like I said, ya gotta always keep a sharp eye out for them Thuringian Thug Punks.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

My avatar pic really says it all. 

Ja, you vill be terminated.


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