# video games and films



## chee_zee

So I decided that ultimately I want to be making a living off composing for video games, perhaps orchestrating for films since they don't have time for composing and orchestrating in hollywood. I've seen in europe, especially germany, a lot of the film composers are allowed to do their own orch though. I figure I'll do that (since it's something I love I'm not 'shirking' it or taking the easy way out, as I view it as just as legitimate as 'classical'), and do concert stuff on the side. I'm attempting to research where to go for such a thing though, any recommendations? It seems like there aren't any universities well equipped for this thing, most of them are concerned with atonal this, electroacoustic that, experimental yada blada.

This seems even more like a skillset that can be taught on it's own, especially for games where you need to know how to work with programs like cubase, fmod, Wwise, etc, you can figure out on your own. One thing you can only somewhat be an autodidact with is orch and the real world experience factor, and going to an institution and getting a degree would make networking easier I'd imagine. 

I have eastwest platinum, though not VSL. Even with VSL, the problem with samples is how some notes in different articulations are just so much louder than others, and not to mention lack of advanced articulations. Although you would seldom be using extremely extended techniques such as say seagull harmonic glissandos, bowing the side of the bridge, bowing the tailpiece, woodwind multiphonics or body knocking etc, it's something that I would do a lot for smaller ensembles. Not to mention my interest in world music and the utter lack of articulations for that and just getting samples to do things like glissandos timed in the correct manner. This is something I hate deeply.


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## LordBlackudder

i think in the old days it was easier to get a job as a composer for video games. but now they have more money to spend on the sound so the school leavers have no chance.

they want to see proof of your ability. so maybe try contacting smaller indie companies. the ones that make flash games, phone games and the other low budget ones.

the path of most of the composers seem to be study and than do anything they can get until they get better positions. perhaps even indirect work like mixing in the recording studio or setting up the orchestra. i suppose it all adds up on a CV.

the job descriptions give a good idea as well.


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## chee_zee

would it be viable to spend a couple more years in private study til I get comfortable with many styles, start off working on small things as you said, and gradually work my way up? seems to me like once you are good enough at what you do and have a network you should be able to make it. being good at what you do can be done by one's self for the most part, though again, orch is pretty hard to study by yourself without it taking quite some time. but that's half the fun of it I suppose, the journey to the destination (destination being making a comfortable living off composing).


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## StevenOBrien

I may get flamed for saying this, but I'd like to firstly remind you that you don't _have_ to go to a university.

Go to a community like tigsource, become active and make friends with indie developers there. Do some small games for free and then start to charge once you've built up a reputation. After a while of doing indie games, you might get noticed by a large developer or publisher.


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## Praeludium

Well, that hasn't anything to do with a college, has it ? How could studying composition and many other things with extremely competent teachers prevent you from going in this or this website, have a network, etc. ? It can't be bad.


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## chee_zee

hadn't heard of tigsource man, thanks for the heads up! I've been looking at this:

berklee online

or a place in Cali, but it seems more for sound design and recording engineering than composing, so probably not.


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## PetrB

chee_zee said:


> hadn't heard of tigsource man, thanks for the heads up! I've been looking at this:
> 
> berklee online
> 
> or a place in Cali, but it seems more for sound design and recording engineering than composing, so probably not.


Sorry, that one-on-one with a private instructor, instant feedback, spontaneous things noticed and questions responded regarding the direction and / or strengths and weakness of your work HAS NO SUBSTITUTE which is remotely as effective -- all to the point of getting what you want and need.

There is no cosmic law which states that working relationship can only be found within the context of a university format 

You want neither a Berklee nor an 'all classical all the time' school. If it is a Uni, most desirable and useful to you is one with a generally strong and multifaceted music department; classical, other pop genres, maybe even 'writing for film' (novel idea?  of which there is a lot more to know other than the actual composing, which some people overlook completely.


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## PetrB

PetrB said:


> Sorry, that one-on-one with a private instructor, instant feedback, spontaneous things noticed and questions responded regarding the direction and / or strengths and weakness of your work HAS NO SUBSTITUTE which is remotely as effective -- all to the point of getting what you want and need.
> 
> There is no cosmic law which states that working relationship can only be found within the context of a university format
> 
> You want neither a Berklee nor an 'all classical all the time' school. If it is a Uni, most desirable and useful to you is one with a generally strong and multifaceted music department; classical, other pop genres, maybe even 'writing for film' (novel idea?  of which there is a lot more to know other than the actual composing, which some people overlook completely.


Since the medium is always a studio affair, live musicians or your more ideal and top of the line $10,000 set of Vienna orchestral samples, knowing some sound engineering is more than useful: it is practical so you have the language in which to communicate with those engineers, and plan your writing / performance for that intermediary medium.


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## chee_zee

hey petr I will be taking private lessons with a guy starting in the next few months here, he does some choral works, he's a decent orchestrator, and does stuff for tv (jingles, documentaries) and some small stuff for disney through the years. I'm seriously considering private study with no degree at all and just building a network.


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## Moira

chee_zee said:


> hey petr I will be taking private lessons with a guy starting in the next few months here, he does some choral works, he's a decent orchestrator, and does stuff for tv (jingles, documentaries) and some small stuff for disney through the years. I'm seriously considering private study with no degree at all and just building a network.


Get a degree. It looks good on your CV. There will always be some bigot who likes to see it there when he/she is hiring you.


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## gr8gunz

Moira said:


> Get a degree. It looks good on your CV. There will always be some bigot who likes to see it there when he/she is hiring you.


BIGOT!!??


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## chee_zee

I've been talking with a few film composers (not games but still) and they've all said the same thing: not once did an employer inquire about their education. In fact, one of them has a degree, but it's not even in music, it's a bachelor in business.


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## PetrB

Moira said:


> Get a degree. It looks good on your CV. There will always be some bigot who likes to see it there when he/she is hiring you.


Really, when it comes to the higher level of performance, or composing, people look at the work first, ask where or with whom you trained later. Symphony position, 400 applicants? Yeah, better have that master's in performance on the CV or you will be winnowed out before they listen to your audition recording, deciding on 'round two.'

Composition, competition or submitting for a job? It is the scores and the recordings, working CV, not the school one, which count. You are usually asked about training, where and with whom, after the fact, and at that point you are already a good candidate to be hired.

If you are not planning EVER on teaching in schools, Diplomas are less necessary - all that was required for learning the craft which is part of that diploma program should / must be learned - doesn't have to be in a classroom for credit, or diploma.

Only recommended to the most foolish, the most talented, confident, able and brave of people, in other words, almost never


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## chee_zee

well as I said, I got into contact with a couple of film composers and both of them said they have never once been asked for a degree, whether for film music, games, or even concert music. Seems to me either you can make good music or you can't, a degree is irrelevant in the general regard, a person is quite capable of making better music than a degree holder. So for now, I think my plan is to learn by taking lessons from film composers, from orchestrators, etc. the internet is a wonderful thing, programs like skype allow for some private lessons for instance.


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## Moira

gr8gunz said:


> BIGOT!!??


Yip. Bigot. In the employment context this is an employer who wants something that is beyond the scope of the job. A person who wants to see a degree even for a job which does not require one. A person who wants a young dolly bird when an old secretary would be better. A person who wants an older person when a younger one is just as competent. A person who wants a white/black/brown/Asian/Hispanic/whatever employee when it doesn't matter what the racial and national origins of the employee are. A person who wants a male when a woman can do as well. A person who wants a woman when a male will do as well.

This includes all politically correct appointments of people of certain colours, genders, ableness, and personal preferences relating to size, age etc.

The ONLY criteria for employment which are not bigoted relate to the suitability of the person to the position and the ability of that person for the position. Suitability can sometimes take into account factors which are otherwise bigotry factors. For example a black singer has greater suitability for the role of Othello than a white one. A woman has greater suitability for the role of Gilda than a castrato (not that a castrato who could sing those roles would be underemployed). Ballet dancers should be a certain build (but not always - our company takes taller/shorter and even some funny shaped dancers).


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## Tomposer

My only advice to add is to spread yourself around a bit, not because you're worried about "not making it" but rather because these things take time. Start relatively small and have options for financial income which are supportive of your passions. As I just said in an earlier thread I worked for a long time in a non-music job. Many people make their peace with that (Charles Ives, Borodin?), but personally I find it gratifying and practically useful to be in work which is encouraging of your composition, even if you're not always being directly financed for it. In my case it's teaching music (history, theory, studio techniques, etc), but that's not the only option. You want to start doing this _while _you study (if you choose to study).

This advice is of more significance to composers than performers, as the latter naturally gravitate to all manner of paid gigs and if they're good often support themselves (with varied success) until they settle into something.


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## Tomposer

Regarding university training... it's interesting. I would certainly expect that most people paying a composer to make new music don't ask to see a certificate and prefer to rely on their expectations of that individual based on their reputation etc; on the other hand if you casually mention ten successful American composers (film or otherwise) I'm guessing most will have had tertiary training. That makes me think that tertiary training, in one way or another, offers various conveniences and shortcuts, even if it is as simple as networking or avoidance of re-inventing musical wheels. Moreover, a lot of the essential technicalities to do with creating music for media, though largely fostered in the professional and commercial domain, are being taken more and more seriously by previously traditional music academies. That isn't to say tertiary training is essential, I don't think it is - but you'll want _some sort_ of avenue into the business and it is a relatively strong option.


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## chee_zee

I start private lessons with a composer in the fall, he's done stuff with disney and all sorts of radio and television for BBC. He also has a residency with a local church (kinda odd in this day and age) so that may be my 'shortcut' into organ players as well heh heh. That may end up landing me some menial task, for now I just do blue collar work through a temp agency, also spend my fridays making a dozen USD an hour at the local Farmer's Market. 

The thing about it is, you could always go for more money, even if you were making trillions per day, but you have to find a point where you can comfortably sustain your self while still having time for your passion, which is I guess different for different people.


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## Tomposer

chee_zee said:


> I start private lessons with a composer in the fall, he's done stuff with disney and all sorts of radio and television for BBC. He also has a residency with a local church (kinda odd in this day and age) so that may be my 'shortcut' into organ players as well heh heh. That may end up landing me some menial task, for now I just do blue collar work through a temp agency, also spend my fridays making a dozen USD an hour at the local Farmer's Market.
> 
> The thing about it is, you could always go for more money, even if you were making trillions per day, but you have to find a point where you can comfortably sustain your self while still having time for your passion, which is I guess different for different people.


I read an article recently which was about artist job satisfaction (think it was only Australian, can't recall the details). The main finding was that artists (currently) are finding ways to make their career work and in spite of accepting much lower incomes were generally more satisfied in their professions than some others that they were compared with (can't remember which these were, but it was something like law or other high-skilled professional work). It's possible that with a career in the arts you'll make a lot of money, but chances are you will not, unfortunately. Luckily, as that study seemed to indicate, most of us are in it because of the satisfaction it brings, not so much the money. You have to consider that carefully because there are much better jobs around for making money (and will arguably take less time to get into).

There's also the option of practicing seriously as an artist while making a living in some other field. This is less common (probably because its hard) but perfectly viable.

What most of us have to do is spend many years, maybe decades, on a road towards what we want to achieve ideally, both musically and professionally. If you're starting out it's good to anticipate this - as a composer it's likely your life will largely be about working towards lofty but long-term goals and ideals, and inasmuch as that's true you need various strategies for getting by in the mean time.


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## Lunasong

"Americans are writing, playing, recording and listening to more orchestra music today than they ever have before in history -- mostly in the form of film music and video game soundtracks."
Richard Dare, CEO and Managing Director, Brooklyn Philharmonic; 5-29-12 Huffington Post


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## chee_zee

I actually saw that article;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richa...mMJRXRBu9AzF3-eTOeo&fb_source=other_multiline


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