# which Verdi Requiem?



## science

So I'm in the market for a new Verdi Requiem. I've got Karajan. 

Just browsing, I'm considering: 

- Solti 
- Reiner 
- Giulini (EMI probably, probably not DG) 
- Shaw 

Fricsay is an outsider because it's in mono and I'm just enough of a sound guy to dislike that old sound a lot of the time. 

Really, to me it's basically Solti v. Reiner, but the thing is, I'm here for advice. Whatchall think?


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## moody

science said:


> So I'm in the market for a new Verdi Requiem. I've got Karajan.
> 
> Just browsing, I'm considering:
> 
> - Solti
> - Reiner
> - Giulini (EMI probably, probably not DG)
> - Shaw
> 
> Fricsay is an outsider because it's in mono and I'm just enough of a sound guy to dislike that old sound a lot of the time.
> 
> Really, to me it's basically Solti v. Reiner, but the thing is, I'm here for advice. Whatchall think?


Toscanini's interpretation was described as an "Old Testament Reading",it's a knockout and will never be equalled but you won't like the sound from 1951.
His live 1938 recording made in the Old Queen's Hall is also terrific,with the BBC symphony.
Serafin's 1939 recording with Gigli,Caniglia, Stignani and Pinza is a must-have, But you won't like these recordings either so that's all the classic performances ruled out.
Fritz Reiner's is a bore and I'm a great Reiner fan --don't understand what happened.
Barbirolli is perverse and Karajan (DG) slack and slow.
Shaw---forget it !!
Giulini (EMI) is probably your best bet.


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## joen_cph

Agree with Moody concerning the famous Reiner. Objectively speaking, it is also very slow in some movements too. 

Markevitch is electrifying, but isn´t exactly Italian (Russian forces) and hasn´t got very good sound. 

Perhaps try Peter Gutmann´s web survey for some nice reading too.

Another side remark: those who like Verdi´s Requiem should try the collective work "Messa per Rossini" which includes a short version of the Dies Irae together with some really captivating and dramatic music by other Italian composers from those days. I have Rilling´s recording & enjoy it a lot, though I am normally not very much into the Italian operatic style.


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## Svelte Silhouette

science said:


> So I'm in the market for a new Verdi Requiem. I've got Karajan.
> 
> Just browsing, I'm considering:
> 
> - Solti
> - Reiner
> - Giulini (EMI probably, probably not DG)
> - Shaw
> 
> Fricsay is an outsider because it's in mono and I'm just enough of a sound guy to dislike that old sound a lot of the time.
> 
> Really, to me it's basically Solti v. Reiner, but the thing is, I'm here for advice. Whatchall think?


Shaw's DDD Telarc does it 4 me


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## realdealblues

Shaw is quite popular with some folks.

Giulini is classic.

Antonio Pappano's recording is considered one of the best modern recordings so you might consider checking out that one.

I personally like Muti's 1987 recording on EMI with Ramey, Pavaratti, Studer & Zajic. Muti's 2010 recording with Chicago won a Grammy in 2011, not that the Grammy's mean much these days, but Muti at least puts me in mind of Toscanini at times whom as Moody put will probably never be topped.


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## david johnson

giulini/emi is great!! get it.


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## Pip

The live performance from 2012, which is about to be issued on Blu-ray should be considered.
Harteros, Garancia, Kaufmann, Papé (arguably the best quartet around today) - La Scala Orchestra and Chorus. Daniel Barenboim. 
I have seen this performance and it lives up to expectations.
It shall live together with my Serafin 1938 with Gigli and Pinza ,the Karajan 1949 Salzburg performance with Zadek and Christoff and the 1940 Toscanini with Milanov and Björling. It makes up a pretty good quartet.


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## StlukesguildOhio

My wife bought me the Giulini recording years ago for Christmas. She just took a shot in the dark selecting that particular recording... and it is most certainly a classic. I also have the Fricsay recording... which is scorching.


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## Ecnerwal

The Serafin-conducted performance has Caniglia, Pinza, Stignani, and Gigli. It has been criticized as overly operatic, not spiritual. You know what? Of all the recordings I have--Reiner, Giulini, both Fricsay, Reiner, Toscanini, Shaw--this is absolutely the most gorgeously sung by this great singing quartet. Mono sound, yes. The Shaw is obviously best in that regard. I rate the Fricsays highly, too. Reiner: fine quartet; sluggish tempo, unstylistic. 

Go with the Serafin. You can download it for free at Internet Archive.org. Even listening on crappy computers, it's a marvel.


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## Antiquarian

I reccomend Shaw's with the Atlanta Symphony on Telarc if you want to really shake the house with 'Dies Irae', otherwise for a HIP I suggest Gardiner's with the Orchestre Revolutionaire Et Romantique on Phillips. You won't have the 'over the top' sonics that one almost expects these days, but it will have Anne Sofie Von Otter and Alastair Miles as soloists.


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## OperaGeek

This one is a must:









Karajan on top form, superb chorus and orchestra, unbeatable soloists, more than acceptable sound. A true classic!


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## Guest

My first choice is Giulini.


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## Vaneyes

VPO/HvK et al (DG rec.1984). For crazy good, the Moody-recommended Toscanini '51.:tiphat:


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## Pugg

Karajan but then the firsts one with Freni 
followed by Reiner with L.Price 
and again Karajan on DVD L.Price
and Muti omn EMI with Scotto and Baltsa


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## DavidA

The old Friscay mono is tremendous as a performance. None better, I would say.
Guilini's live version with Shuard recorded in Albert Hall at about the same time as EMI studio. But the performance is better and Shuard is better than Schwartskopf in this work as the latter is under powered.
The Muti is tremendously dramatic.
I also have Gardiner's which is said to be HIP but I can't tell. The performance is terrific!

The Toscanini is a classic but of course the sound is very limited even for the period.


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## Xaltotun

I've only heard three or four versions but I prefer the Solti; when it's aggressive it's explosive, when it's serene it's heavenly.


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## Varick

I know this is almost a year old, but for the love of God do not listen to those who railed against the Reiner. The Reiner is absolutely fantastic and I would say has the best collection of soloists of any Requiem out there (the four main). The Guilini is epic as well and I am no Guilini fan. I have not heard the Shaw, but given his strength in choral arrangements, I can't imagine it being that bad. However, sometimes Shaw misses on his soloists (sometimes they're outright dreadful).

But give the Reiner a listen. The man keys into the heart and soul of this piece. It's almost a religious experience. One of the greatest pieces of music ever written.

V


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## Xaltotun

Hmm, local shop has the Reiner as a LP set, price 3 euros. Maybe I should give it a new home!


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## Konsgaard

From the ones I've heard, while comparing different recordings, Karajan's was the most impressive. I have not heard the Pappano which is considered one of the best.


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## czgirb

For me, I choose ... *Toscanini (RCA)* and *Fricsay (DG)* and *Shaw (Telarc)*
Regarding to Toscanini, *Pristine Audio* has a Stereo Version. You can give it a try ...


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## KenOC

In a long-ago thread, the Robert Shaw recording was very well thought of. I have it and like it.


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## Heck148

science said:


> So I'm in the market for a new Verdi Requiem. I've got Karajan.
> 
> Just browsing, I'm considering:
> 
> - Solti
> - Reiner
> - Giulini (EMI probably, probably not DG)
> - Shaw
> 
> Really, to me it's basically Solti v. Reiner, but the thing is, I'm here for advice. Whatchall think?


Reiner and both Soltis [VPO, CSO] are excellent...you can't really go wrong...


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## Drew Dent

From what I've gathered (from this site and elsewhere), the recording by Carlo Maria Giulini and the Philharmonia Orchestra is often considered the standard/go-to recording (and by extent, is generally well received in terms of sound and performance quality).
http://losslessclassics.com/wp-cont...lo-Maria-Giulini-2020-FLAC-24BIT-–-192KHZ.jpg

Is this true? As I asked in another thread, I'm looking for a single/"best" recording of a variety of classical albums to start with (may listen to other prominent recordings though later on down the road )


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## Allegro Con Brio

For me the greatest is Toscanini '51 - not bad sound quality but still mono and I take it you are looking for modern sound? Still one that I think anyone who likes this work needs to hear. Otherwise yes, Giulini (though some people criticize it for being too "beautiful" and mild-mannered for such a dramatic work), Reiner, or Solti (which has an all-star cast of operatic soloists). Recommend you check out this survey, along with the all the others on this amazing website: http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/verdirequiem.html


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## Brahmsianhorn

De Sabata absolutely nails this one. Best version by a mile for me.


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## HenryPenfold

JEG. No-brainer.


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## Rogerx

Hands down .


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## Brahmsianhorn

I have never heard a Dies Irae/Tuba mirum to compare to this one. Just amazingly intense. Only Serafin and Toscanini were close.

Most people only know De Sabata by his unsurpassed Tosca with Callas, but this recording is in the same category.


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## Azol

Bernstein's recording on Sony with London Symphony Orchestra is brilliant!


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## Knorf

If one is looking for a more recent recording, in superb sound with a tremendous fiery performance, I really enjoy the Muti/Chicago Symphony release on their own "CSO Resound" label. It's absolutely competitive with any of the traditional favorites.


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## DavidA

The best of the recent issues is the Pappano.


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## perdido34

If you can find it, there is a live performance of Verdi Requiem with Szell/Cleveland dating from 1968. The singers were Tucci, Baker, Duval, and Talvela. It's an outstanding performance. Szell wanted to make a studio recording of this piece but didn't live long enough for that to happen.


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## The3Bs

I own and like very much:
Fricsay
Solti
Gardiner
Giulini (EMI & BBC)
Karajan

I also have Reiner's but feel there are some SQ issues with that one...

and I am waiting for Teodor Currentzis to release a commercial recording... I was bowled over by a recent performance with the Berlin Philharmonic.

If I needed to choose one.. it will be Solti's until maybe Currentzis comes out with a CD of this work...


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## VitellioScarpia

I keep returning to the Shaw as my base recording. I find the Solti _too Solti_ and the Giulini is undone for me because it sounded too cold to me in LPs (I should re-listen to it).


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## flamencosketches

I've never heard Verdi's Requiem. Is there a consensus on "the one to get" in modern sound? (I am sure there's not). 

That Reiner/Decca looks good.


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## howlingfantods

flamencosketches said:


> I've never heard Verdi's Requiem. Is there a consensus on "the one to get" in modern sound? (I am sure there's not).
> 
> That Reiner/Decca looks good.


Giulini/Schwarzkopf/Ludwig/Gedda/Ghiaurov, Reiner/Bjorling/L Price/Elias/Tozzi, Karajan/L Price/Pavarotti/Cossotto/Ghiaurov (video only) are probably the most frequently recommended stereo versions.

I personally prefer the Bernstein/Arroyo/Domingo/Veasey/Raimondi by a hair over the Karajan and the Reiner I listed above. There's also a Karajan CD version with Freni/Ludwig/Cossutta/Ghiaurov that I like quite a lot. The Giulini is a farther behind in my books--I don't think Schwarzkopf or Gedda are ideal for this music.


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## flamencosketches

howlingfantods said:


> Giulini/Schwarzkopf/Ludwig/Gedda/Ghiaurov, Reiner/Bjorling/L Price/Elias/Tozzi, Karajan/L Price/Pavarotti/Cossotto/Ghiaurov (video only) are probably the most frequently recommended stereo versions.
> 
> I personally prefer the Bernstein/Arroyo/Domingo/Veasey/Raimondi by a hair over the Karajan and the Reiner I listed above. There's also a Karajan CD version with Freni/Ludwig/Cossutta/Ghiaurov that I like quite a lot. The Giulini is a farther behind in my books--I don't think Schwarzkopf or Gedda are ideal for this music.


Giulini, Reiner and Bernstein sound good. I'll sample them all, though I must admit I have no idea what to listen for as I've never heard the work and am generally quite unfamiliar with Verdi.


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## howlingfantods

flamencosketches said:


> Giulini, Reiner and Bernstein sound good. I'll sample them all, though I must admit I have no idea what to listen for as I've never heard the work and am generally quite unfamiliar with Verdi.


You'll probably recognize the Dies Irae and possibly the Libera Me when you hear it. Used in a lot of movies and tv shows.


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## perdido34

VitellioScarpia said:


> I keep returning to the Shaw as my base recording. I find the Solti _too Solti_ and the Giulini is undone for me because it sounded too cold to me in LPs (I should re-listen to it).
> View attachment 136135


Which Solti are you talking about? He recorded it with Vienna (for Decca) and with Chicago (RCA). The first one is better.


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## perdido34

flamencosketches said:


> I've never heard Verdi's Requiem. Is there a consensus on "the one to get" in modern sound? (I am sure there's not).
> 
> That Reiner/Decca looks good.


I like the Reiner recording a lot. The soloists are excellent. Some people find that some of the tempi are slow.


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## Rogerx

perdido34 said:


> I like the Reiner recording a lot. The soloists are excellent. Some people find that some of the tempi are slow.



After all those years still stunning.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> The best of the recent issues is the Pappano.


In your opinion...


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## Brahmsianhorn

My working list in order of preference:

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/Giuseppe di Stefano/Cesare Siepi/Victor de Sabata (EMI, Opera d'Oro) *****

Maria Caniglia/Ebe Stignani/Beniamino Gigli/Tandreci Pasero/Victor de Sabata (incomplete) (RY) ****1/2

Maria Caniglia/Ebe Stignani/Beniamino Gigli/Ezio Pinza/Tullio Serafin (Dutton, EMI, Pearl, Naxos) ****1/2

Zinka Milanov/Bruna Castagna/Jussi Björling/Nicola Moscona/Arturo Toscanini (1940) (Music & Arts) ****1/2

Zinka Milanov/Kerstin Thorborg/Helge Rosvaenge/Nicola Moscona/Arturo Toscanini (1938) (Testament) ****1/2

Renata Tebaldi/Cloe Elmo/Giacinto Prandelli/Cesare Siepi/Arturo Toscanini (1950) (IDI, GOP) ****1/2

Zinka Milanov/Bruna Castagna/Charles Kullman/Nicola Moscona/Arturo Toscanini (1938) (Archipel) ****1/2

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/Christa Ludwig/Nicolai Gedda/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) **** 

Martina Arroyo/Josephine Veasey/Placido Domingo/Ruggero Raimondi/Leonard Bernstein (Sony) ****

Leontyne Price/Rosalind/Elias/Jussi Björling/Giorgio Tozzi/Fritz Reiner (Decca) ***1/2

Herva Nelli/Fedora Barbireri/Giuseppe di Stefano/Cesare Siepi/Arturo Toscanini (RCA) ***1/2

Ilva Ligabue/Grace Bumbry/Sandor Konya/Raphael Arie/Carlo Maria Giulini (BBC) ***1/2

Anne Pashley/Amy Shuard/David Hughes/Duncan Robertson/Carlo Maria Giulini (BBC) ***1/2

Maria Stader/Oralia Dominguez/Gabor Carelli/Ivan Sardi/Ferenc Fricsay (DG Double) ***1/2

Maria Stader/Marianna Radev/Helmut Krebs/Kim Borg/Ferenc Fricsay (DG Originals) ***1/2

Sheila Armstrong/Janet Baker/Nicolai Gedda/Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau/Sir John Barbirolli (EMI) ***1/2

Renata Scotto/Agnes Baltsa/Veriano Luchetti/Evgeny Nesterenko/Riccardo Muti (EMI) ***1/2

Luba Orgonasova/Anne Sofie von Otter/Luca Canonici/Alastair Miles/John Eliot Gardiner (Philips) ***1/2

Leontyne Price/Giulietta Siminioato/Giuseppe Zampieri/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Herbert von Karajan (Testament) ***1/2

Mirella Freni/Christa Ludwig/Carlo Cossutta/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2

Stefania Woytowicz/Christa Ludwig/Nicolai Gedda/Boris Carmeli/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Archipel) ***1/2

Renata Scotto/Marilyn Horne/Luciano Pavarotti/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Claudio Abbado (Opera D’Oro) ***1/2

Susan Dunn/Diane Curry/Jerry Hadley/Paul Plishka/Robert Shaw (Telarc) ***1/2

Cheryl Studer/Marjana Lipovsek/José Carreras/Ruggero Raimondi/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***1/2

Angela Gheorghiu/Daniela Barcellona/Robert Alagna/Julian Konstantinov/Claudio Abbado (EMI) ***1/2

Leontyne Price/Dame Janet Baker/Veriano Luchetti/Jose van Dam/Georg Solti (RCA) ***1/2

Michele Crider/Markella Hatziano/Gabriel Sade/Robert Lloyd/Richard Hickox (Chandos) ***1/2

Cheryl Studer/Dolora Zajick/Luciano Pavarotti/Samuel Ramey/Riccardo Muti (EMI) ***1/2


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> In your opinion...


And just about everyone else's as well :tiphat:


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## DavidA

Rogerx said:


> After all those years still stunning.


The recording is stunning even now and the soloists are superb but some of Reiner's tempi are very slow indeed.


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## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My working list in order of preference:
> 
> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/Giuseppe di Stefano/Cesare Siepi/Victor de Sabata (EMI, Opera d'Oro) *****
> 
> Maria Caniglia/Ebe Stignani/Beniamino Gigli/Tandreci Pasero/Victor de Sabata (incomplete) (RY) ****1/2
> 
> Maria Caniglia/Ebe Stignani/Beniamino Gigli/Ezio Pinza/Tullio Serafin (Dutton, EMI, Pearl, Naxos) ****1/2
> 
> Zinka Milanov/Bruna Castagna/Jussi Björling/Nicola Moscona/Arturo Toscanini (1940) (Music & Arts) ***1/2
> 
> Zinka Milanov/Kerstin Thorborg/Helge Rosvaenge/Nicola Moscona/Arturo Toscanini (1938) (Testament) ***1/2
> 
> Renata Tebaldi/Cloe Elmo/Giacinto Prandelli/Cesare Siepi/Arturo Toscanini (1950) (IDI, GOP) ***1/2
> 
> Zinka Milanov/Bruna Castagna/Charles Kullman/Nicola Moscona/Arturo Toscanini (1938) (Archipel) ***1/2
> 
> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/Christa Ludwig/Nicolai Gedda/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) ****
> 
> Martina Arroyo/Josephine Veasey/Placido Domingo/Ruggero Raimondi/Leonard Bernstein (Sony) ****
> 
> Leontyne Price/Rosalind/Elias/Jussi Björling/Giorgio Tozzi/Fritz Reiner (Decca) ***1/2
> 
> Herva Nelli/Fedora Barbireri/Giuseppe di Stefano/Cesare Siepi/Arturo Toscanini (RCA) ***1/2
> 
> Ilva Ligabue/Grace Bumbry/Sandor Konya/Raphael Arie/Carlo Maria Giulini (BBC) ***1/2
> 
> Anne Pashley/Amy Shuard/David Hughes/Duncan Robertson/Carlo Maria Giulini (BBC) ***1/2
> 
> Maria Stader/Oralia Dominguez/Gabor Carelli/Ivan Sardi/Ferenc Fricsay (DG Double) ***1/2
> 
> Maria Stader/Marianna Radev/Helmut Krebs/Kim Borg/Ferenc Fricsay (DG Originals) ***1/2
> 
> Sheila Armstrong/Janet Baker/Nicolai Gedda/Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau/Sir John Barbirolli (EMI) ***1/2
> 
> Renata Scotto/Agnes Baltsa/Veriano Luchetti/Evgeny Nesterenko/Riccardo Muti (EMI) ***1/2
> 
> Luba Orgonasova/Anne Sofie von Otter/Luca Canonici/Alastair Miles/John Eliot Gardiner (Philips) ***1/2
> 
> Leontyne Price/Giulietta Siminioato/Giuseppe Zampieri/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Herbert von Karajan (Testament) ***1/2
> 
> Mirella Freni/Christa Ludwig/Carlo Cossutta/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
> 
> Stefania Woytowicz/Christa Ludwig/Nicolai Gedda/Boris Carmeli/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Archipel) ***1/2
> 
> Renata Scotto/Marilyn Horne/Luciano Pavarotti/Nicolai Ghiaurov/Claudio Abbado (Opera D'Oro) ***1/2
> 
> Susan Dunn/Diane Curry/Jerry Hadley/Paul Plishka/Robert Shaw (Telarc) ***1/2
> 
> Cheryl Studer/Marjana Lipovsek/José Carreras/Ruggero Raimondi/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***1/2
> 
> Angela Gheorghiu/Daniela Barcellona/Robert Alagna/Julian Konstantinov/Claudio Abbado (EMI) ***1/2
> 
> Leontyne Price/Dame Janet Baker/Veriano Luchetti/Jose van Dam/Georg Solti (RCA) ***1/2
> 
> Michele Crider/Markella Hatziano/Gabriel Sade/Robert Lloyd/Richard Hickox (Chandos) ***1/2
> 
> Cheryl Studer/Dolora Zajick/Luciano Pavarotti/Samuel Ramey/Riccardo Muti (EMI) ***1/2


Weren't you just going on and on in the Furtwangler thread about how Toscanini doesn't understand music? I'm also not sure what to make of an order of preference list that has four star recordings under the 3 and half star recordings.


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## Simplicissimus

Get ready to laugh me out of town, but my favorite is stiil

Leinsdorf/Boston SO with Boston Chorus Pro Musica directed by Alfred Nash Patterson, featuring Birgit Nilsson, Lili Chookasian, Carlo Bergonzi, and Ezio Flagello, 1964-5, RCA Living Stereo.

I like the tempi, vocal performances, and sound quality. I’ve been trying out some of the recordings mentioned here on Youtube and streaming, but I just really like my old favorite, which has gotten nary a mention.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’m still trying to find the one for me. Not a fan of it when it’s done too operatically, probably because I’m not all that keen on Verdi’s operas - what are some recordings that are more mellow, more intimate, more “spiritual?” Not necessarily in terms of tempi (which have nothing to do with the qualities I’m looking for), but maybe in terms of soloists who sing more like they’re in a sacred choral work than an opera, and conducting that doesn’t sound like everything is being overmilked for profundity. Of the small handful I’ve heard my current favorite is probably the Reiner because it has some of those qualities, which I didn’t come in expecting from a conductor who usually focuses on speed, drama, and clarity.


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> Weren't you just going on and on in the Furtwangler thread about how Toscanini doesn't understand music? I'm also not sure what to make of an order of preference list that has four star recordings under the 3 and half star recordings.


Hey bud, maybe you should actually read people's posts instead of popping off and misquoting them. I was talking about Toscanini's Beethoven compared to Furtwangler's. I still listed recordings of Toscanini's Beethoven that I do like, just not as much as others, and oh by the way here is what I said in the same thread about his Verdi.



Brahmsianhorn said:


> our own posts describe Furtwangler as a 19th century Romantic relic. How on earth can you simultaneously claim that his interpretation of Romantic German repertoire is anything other than idiomatic? It doesn't fit YOUR aesthetic, but by your own admission you are a creature of 20th century "innovation." (others on this thread are as well) That's all fine and dandy, but don't paint it as anything other than what it is - fitting German Romantic repertoire into YOUR aesthetic. *It's not like I am saying Furtwangler's approach should be co-opted for all repertoire. His Verdi Otello is fascinating and exciting but terribly wrong. Give me Toscanini any day here.* But the reverse is also true with the German Romantics. I have a strange thing for idiomatic interpretation of great works.


Apology accepted


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## howlingfantods

Deleted my flip remark to post a slightly more serious reply.

I've never believed in "idiomatic" music making. It may be true that certain interpreters have a unique relationship to the original interpretations--Rosenthal and Koczalski studied with Mikuli who studied with Chopin, so perhaps they may have important insights into performance practice for instance. 

But that has to do with the general approach, and not necessarily the excellence of their execution of that approach--neither Rosenthal or Koczalski are among my favorite Chopin performers, but I do find their recordings interesting for historical performance practice reasons.

But the "they're german so can do beethoven, they're italian so they can do verdi" stuff is I think pretty obviously absurd in this age when so many notable classical musicians come from somewhere other than continental europe.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Race science? LOL


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## wkasimer

DavidA said:


> And just about everyone else's as well :tiphat:


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> But the "they're german so can do beethoven, they're italian so they can do verdi" stuff is I think pretty obviously absurd in this age when so many notable classical musicians come from somewhere other than continental europe.


Or maybe I listened first to Furtwängler's Beethoven and Toscanini's Verdi before drawing those conclusions and they represent an honest valuation of what I hear. But this forum isn't interested in that.


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## Knorf

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ...an honest valuation of what I hear. But this forum isn't interested in that.


How wrong you are about that. When you get pushback, it's not about your honesty or lack thereof.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> How wrong you are about that. When you get pushback, it's not about your honesty or lack thereof.


The insinuation above was that I make lazy generalizations as opposed to actually listening


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## Rogerx

DavidA said:


> The recording is stunning even now and the soloists are superb but some of Reiner's tempi are very slow indeed.


IL take that and doesn't bother me, more drama .


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## Rogerx

For modern sound ..... I take this one.


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## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Or maybe I listened first to Furtwängler's Beethoven and Toscanini's Verdi before drawing those conclusions and they represent an honest valuation of what I hear. But this forum isn't interested in that.


it's not that i think you're dishonest--i just think from what i've seen of your opinions that they are schematic and simplistic and predictable. so schematic in fact that i can only conclude that you prejudge before you listen to recordings based on factors extrinsic to the quality of the performance.


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> it's not that i think you're dishonest--i just think from what i've seen of your opinions that they are schematic and simplistic and predictable. so schematic in fact that *i can only conclude that you prejudge before you listen *to recordings based on factors extrinsic to the quality of the performance.


Well, that is demonstratably false, in addition to being extremely insulting. Go to the Strauss thread and you'll see that pretty conclusively.

At the same time, ironically, the premise that in order to prove I am truly judging objectively my choices have to show no discernible pattern...is a simplistic one. Some artists are going to be generally better, particularly in certain repertoire. That doesn't mean I prejudged them. Again - insulting and demonstratably false.


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## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Well, that is demonstratably false, in addition to being extremely insulting. Go to the Strauss thread and you'll see that pretty conclusively.
> 
> At the same time, ironically, the premise that in order to prove I am truly judging objectively my choices have to show no discernible pattern...is a simplistic one. Some artists are going to be generally better, particularly in certain repertoire. That doesn't mean I prejudged them. Again - insulting and demonstratably false.


Just trying to be helpful. You seem confused about why people push back on you, despite the fact that your opinions are largely not very controversial (liking Furtwangler for Beethoven or Toscanini for Verdi or Karajan for Strauss are hardly earthshattering opinions). Just one person's perspective as to why you might get the responses you get.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.


Well every review I read. :tiphat:


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Well every review I read. :tiphat:


Aren't you the one who always preaches about how people should not present their opinion as fact?


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> Just trying to be helpful. You seem confused about why people push back on you, despite the fact that your opinions are largely not very controversial (liking Furtwangler for Beethoven or Toscanini for Verdi or Karajan for Strauss are hardly earthshattering opinions). Just one person's perspective as to why you might get the responses you get.


LOL, the handful of people who "push back" against me have their own various personal issues. I don't waste my time trying to figure out what those issues are.

And oh by the way, what you just listed is a total BS simplification of my opinions. Go look at the Strauss thread and get back to me.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Aren't you the one who always preaches about how people should not present their opinion as fact?


I have given you a fact - every review I read said that Papoanos was the best modern version. I don't know why you have to continue this tiresome arguing about nothing. People try and help you but yo7 take no notice


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## amfortas

DavidA said:


> The best of the recent issues is the Pappano.





DavidA said:


> I have given you a fact - every review I read said that Pappano's was the best modern version.


These are two different claims. Hence, the pushback.


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## DavidA

amfortas said:


> These are two different claims. Hence, the pushback.


Well have you got any other evidence to the contrary?


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## wkasimer

DavidA said:


> Well have you got any other evidence to the contrary?


I prefer the Barenboim.


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## bisque

Simplicissimus said:


> Get ready to laugh me out of town, but my favorite is stiil
> 
> Leinsdorf/Boston SO with Boston Chorus Pro Musica directed by Alfred Nash Patterson, featuring Birgit Nilsson, Lili Chookasian, Carlo Bergonzi, and Ezio Flagello, 1964-5, RCA Living Stereo.
> 
> I like the tempi, vocal performances, and sound quality. I've been trying out some of the recordings mentioned here on Youtube and streaming, but I just really like my old favorite, which has gotten nary a mention.


Well, I'm not going to laugh you out of town because you are right on the money. It's almost laugh-inducing how supposed classical "experts" completely ignore Leinsdorf, which is kind of nauseating in the same way they ignore Ormandy. Ormandy and Leinsdorf were huge names at Sony and RCA and it was their wonderful performances in wonderful sound that opened up the world of classical music to so many, including myself. I find it shameful how they are willfully ignored and how it's become fashionable to even mock them. That says more about the people doing it than it does about Mr. Ormandy or Mr. Leinsdorf. I has spoken.

As to this Requiem, I am going to, against my better judgment, get the Giuliani that everyone thinks is the GREATEST - I've never thought anything by that conductor is the greatest, so we'll just see. Music is subjective, of course, but sometimes people just hear what they want to hear.

I really, really like the Leinsdorf - of all the accounts I have from that time period, it sounds the best, in classic RCA Living Stereo, and recorded by an engineer who clearly understands the piece and its dynamics. It's shocking to me how many recordings go into distortion land in the climaxes. This doesn't. I also like the Ormandy and I don't care who knows it - also in excellent sound, although perhaps not up to the Leinsdorf in that department. I also enjoy the Reiner for what it is - yes, it's slow, but that was never a problem for me because I don't sit with a score and a metronome, I simply let the music wash over me and it either gets to me or it doesn't. I also enjoy the Barbirolli, although the sound is wanting a bit - his was the first performance I heard and I fell in love with the piece through him, so he'll always have a soft spot. I don't care for any of the modern recordings, frankly.

So, at this point, the Giuliani notwithstanding (and I can chime in on that one in a week or so and you know I will), my go-to CDs are the Leinsdorf and the Reiner.


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## jimsumner

bisque said:


> Well, I'm not going to laugh you out of town because you are right on the money. It's almost laugh-inducing how supposed classical "experts" completely ignore Leinsdorf, which is kind of nauseating in the same way they ignore Ormandy. Ormandy and Leinsdorf were huge names at Sony and RCA and it was their wonderful performances in wonderful sound that opened up the world of classical music to so many, including myself. I find it shameful how they are willfully ignored and how it's become fashionable to even mock them. That says more about the people doing it than it does about Mr. Ormandy or Mr. Leinsdorf. I has spoken.
> 
> As to this Requiem, I am going to, against my better judgment, get the Giuliani that everyone thinks is the GREATEST - I've never thought anything by that conductor is the greatest, so we'll just see. Music is subjective, of course, but sometimes people just hear what they want to hear.
> 
> I really, really like the Leinsdorf - of all the accounts I have from that time period, it sounds the best, in classic RCA Living Stereo, and recorded by an engineer who clearly understands the piece and its dynamics.  It's shocking to me how many recordings go into distortion land in the climaxes. This doesn't. I also like the Ormandy and I don't care who knows it - also in excellent sound, although perhaps not up to the Leinsdorf in that department. I also enjoy the Reiner for what it is - yes, it's slow, but that was never a problem for me because I don't sit with a score and a metronome, I simply let the music wash over me and it either gets to me or it doesn't. I also enjoy the Barbirolli, although the sound is wanting a bit - his was the first performance I heard and I fell in love with the piece through him, so he'll always have a soft spot. I don't care for any of the modern recordings, frankly.
> 
> So, at this point, the Giuliani notwithstanding (and I can chime in on that one in a week or so and you know I will), my go-to CDs are the Leinsdorf and the Reiner.


I'm trying to imagine a Verdi Requiem--or anything for that matter--conducted by Rudy Giuliani but it's too frightening to contemplate. 

And yes, I realize you mean Giulini.


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## VitellioScarpia

jimsumner said:


> I'm trying to imagine a Verdi Requiem--or anything for that matter--conducted by Rudy Giuliani but it's too frightening to contemplate.
> 
> And yes, I realize you mean Giulini.


It would be a madman's nightmare requiem. Eyes bugging out his face. And the cast would have to be right out of Bellevue.


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