# yet another newbie composer



## adrien

Hi All

I started composing only in July, and it was kind of an accident. I've played in orchestras a very long time, and I've done arrangements for string orchestra for a few years (Russian / Soviet masters, Ravel, Debussy, and British light orchestral).

I like music that's catchy, tuneful, and that typically means simple themes. Something you'd walk out of the concert whistling to.

I'm old enough not to really care what other people think, which is why I suggest pull no punches  I'm pretty happy mostly with my stuff and find it enjoyable to listen to, even if it's all reminiscent of who knows what.

here it is warts and all.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3xf19hbjG5R9jP12WIC7mledkZdft6SA

Appreciate any feedback, esp on the suite 2nd and final movts, and the "Russian Waltz". I'm not Russian


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## Phil loves classical

You have a natural gift of melody. The one that I like best is Trampoline Waltz. I'm not Russian, but that waltz sounded very Russian to me based on what I hear from Russian composers. There are some places where I thought the counterpoint was off when I sampled through, but thought the themes were well done


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## adrien

thanks! Yes I know what you mean about the counterpoint. It's like 2 melodies playing chicken when they arrive at a point and they are like a note apart, which one should give way to the other... I need to put a bit more work in I think on that one. I didn't start out with an intention to make a Russian waltz it just turned out sounding a bit Russian. The Russian title tickles my small mind.

Thanks for spending the time to listen and for your kind feedback.


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## Fredx2098

I listened to the Prelude for Clarinet and Orchestra and I enjoyed that a lot. It reminds me of someone/something but I can't put my finger on it. It's definitely very romantic sounding which I like. I want it to keep going like a full clarinet concerto. After what you have so far, my mind wants it to go into a clarinet solo. I'll check out some more eventually. I listened to the Trampoline Waltz per Phil's suggestion, but personally I don't like it very much. I definitely don't gravitate towards tuneful for the most part so it makes sense. Overall it sounds like you're doing a good job and doing what you want to do.


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## adrien

Fredx2098 said:


> I listened to the Prelude for Clarinet and Orchestra and I enjoyed that a lot. It reminds me of someone/something but I can't put my finger on it.


yes I wonder... lol



Fredx2098 said:


> It's definitely very romantic sounding which I like. I want it to keep going like a full clarinet concerto. After what you have so far, my mind wants it to go into a clarinet solo. I'll check out some more eventually. I listened to the Trampoline Waltz per Phil's suggestion, but personally I don't like it very much. I definitely don't gravitate towards tuneful for the most part so it makes sense. Overall it sounds like you're doing a good job and doing what you want to do.


Thanks for listening and for your comments. Of all my pieces I personally like the trampoline waltz the least. Just on a measure of which I end up listening to the most, the first one would be the Russian Waltz, then the Clarinet thing, the Suite and the Overture get about equal playings.

I'd love to do more with the clarinet piece, but a whole concerto is a lot of work, and I'd need a bunch more ideas  And all the while trying not to just replicate the Mozart (oops I said it).

If you listen to the Russian Waltz, the structure is pretty standard AABBAA, but the 4th A is quite a bit of a modulation on the rythm and actually has about 3 distinct concurrent themes going through it. The reason I'm saying this is because I think (from watchtime reports on youtube) a lot of people don't listen to the final section, and it's probably the most interesting one, so if you're going to skip through, then I'd check that one out. Just picture the ICBMs on trucks rolling through Red Square.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

I'd echo what others saod in regards to melody, definitely seem to have some success with that. 

The pieces seem to lack a certain fullness however. Might be due to You being new with orchestration, however.
The score is fairly well put together for a new composer as well.


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## adrien

Thanks for listening and for your comments.

I think there are some fullness issues related to the rendering and sample libraries / compression etc. Also Youtube makes quite a mess dynamically to music with their compression. The MP3s I export sound a lot better.

until I convince a musical director to programme one of my pieces I won't really know... or pay an orchestra to play them (can hire shared sessions with Bulgarian National Radio Orchestra which looks very interesting and very reasonable prices).

If you have the time / inclination I'd be keen to know which parts of which piece(s) you felt were a bit thin but totally understand time is precious and wannabe composers are legion


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## Annied

Really enjoyed these. I kept thinking they would work really well as film sound tracks, although I imagine it's a very difficult area to break into.


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## adrien

Thanks! I'm glad you liked them!


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## adrien

I do know some people involved in film sound-tracks. By all accounts it's fairly difficult, and relatively low-paid almost thankless work.


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## adrien

Fredx2098 said:


> I listened to the Prelude for Clarinet and Orchestra and I enjoyed that a lot. It reminds me of someone/something but I can't put my finger on it. It's definitely very romantic sounding which I like. I want it to keep going like a full clarinet concerto. After what you have so far, my mind wants it to go into a clarinet solo. I'll check out some more eventually. I listened to the Trampoline Waltz per Phil's suggestion, but personally I don't like it very much. I definitely don't gravitate towards tuneful for the most part so it makes sense. Overall it sounds like you're doing a good job and doing what you want to do.


I wrote another short piece for clarinet and orchestra which I thought could become with the prelude a basis for a concerto or something. But I'm not sure the styles are compatible.






Maybe I'd be better off making it a suite with the Russian Waltz or something?


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## Fredx2098

adrien said:


> I wrote another short piece for clarinet and orchestra which I thought could become with the prelude a basis for a concerto or something. But I'm not sure the styles are compatible.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Maybe I'd be better off making it a suite with the Russian Waltz or something?


That's lovely! I could definitely hear that in a film. I'll have to listen more when I have time to see what goes together.


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## adrien

Fredx2098 said:


> That's lovely! I could definitely hear that in a film. I'll have to listen more when I have time to see what goes together.


Thanks! It's currently grown an appendage (next movt) on the end... sounds like a Russian Rossini... Rossinski. Fun.


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## adrien

here's that piece with the new appendage I mentioned. I drew inspiration eventually from the Spanish Civil War, where you could find the Italians, Germans, Russians and Spanish (and others) all in one place bombing each other trying out their newest military toys. Appalling chapter of history. Anyway, the piece starts with the Pavane (which has been cleaned up and finessed a bit) then moves onto the very boisterous scherzo.

Any kind of criticism or comments welcome


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## adrien

sorry, need to post an update to the link in that last message, if I could edit it I would.






Fixed a number of problems. Shame you can't replace vid content on youtube.


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## adrien

I wrote a new waltz which I'm pretty happy with the outcome of (even got some interest in a performance which would be great).






Any feedback appreciated, cheers.


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## Vasks

It's nice and I can see why there might be interest in an orchestra playing.

I would not want you to change a note, but I have a number of suggestions that would make it better from the players and conductors point of view.


An amateur orchestra's string players will be more in tune if you change the key from C minor to either B minor or C# minor.

Your French Horn parts are too much and the extended non-stop repeated pattern of "rest, two, three" is almost brutal.

The opening violins pizz. should also be marked divisi, and you really don't need them divided into three notes. Give Vln 1 two divisi notes and the Vln 2 two divisi notes. 

There's a Glockenspiel line, but unless I missed it, it’s not used.

For your score, add boxed rehearsal numbers (or letters)

For your score, combine on a single line all like pairs. Two trumpets on one line. Two tenor trombones share a single line. Two bassoons one line only. This saves space and makes the fonts larger which is easier for the conductor to see.


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## adrien

Hi

thanks for your comment. I should have said, the score is not yet prepared for performance. I haven't even created the parts yet. This piece started life last thursday.

I wanted the 3 note pizz chords as both sections play the same top note (a spatial effect) and the bottom 2 are stepped a 3rd. I did originally only have 2 notes per part but it wasn't enough to hear the 3rds at the bottom. I also didn't want to give it to the violi as they are in reserve for the chords. So yeah I'd definitely mark it divisi. Probably each player would play 2 notes of the 3, rather than div by 3.

Glock is used only for mostly rhythmic effect rarely as a stand-in for crotales in the 1st recap of the intro theme. I hardly see the point of crotales when you have a glockenspiel. In the upper register anyway.

Rehearsal markers - definitely. And condensing lines, although with solo clarinet, if it's on top of another clarinet it gets messy in a score. So def for bassoons and trumpets. It's more a factor of how the thing grew (I kept adding instruments as it started as a quintet for the competition).

I did try other keys as well, but they don't feel the same. 3 flats shouldn't be too hard for the orchestras looking to play this. Yeah strings prefer sharps to flats 

As for the french horn, I take your point, it is kinda brutal, having really only dynamic to distinguish between the sections. However, in each section I like the effect, and the boom cha cha, although it goes the whole way through is kinda necessary for a waltz, I guess I could try passing it around different sub-sections so the horns aren't carrying it the whole way, or alter the cha cha to something else, but I think it would be going in the wrong direction. Maybe pass it over to lower winds in the 1st string section.

BTW have you ever talked to a snare player about bolero? LOL

thanks!


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## Vasks

adrien said:


> I hardly see the point of crotales when you have a glockenspiel. In the upper register anyway.


There are a number of lower tier orchestras that do not have crotales, so yeah use Glock



adrien said:


> although with solo clarinet, if it's on top of another clarinet it gets messy in a score.


For us composers, yes it is messy (actually pain in the ***), but so long as your notation program can do multiple voices on a staff, you must do it.



adrien said:


> As for the french horn, I take your point, it is kinda brutal, having really only dynamic to distinguish between the sections. However, in each section I like the effect, and the boom cha cha, although it goes the whole way through is kinda necessary for a waltz, I guess I could try passing it around different sub-sections so the horns aren't carrying it the whole way, or alter the cha cha to something else, but I think it would be going in the wrong direction. Maybe pass it over to lower winds in the 1st string section. BTW have you ever talked to a snare player about bolero? LOL


It's not just that the pattern is tedious and boring, but physically making brass players (I'm one) keep going and going eventually becomes a physical challenge. Your possible options can work, but also consider just two horn notes by two players who then trade off to the other two players. Since many of your chords are just triads and plenty of instruments are simultaneously play the notes of the chord it's not necessary (like I was suggesting with the divisi violins) to have all the notes of the chord in the non-melodic parts.


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## adrien

Vasks said:


> It's not just that the pattern is tedious and boring, but physically making brass players (I'm one) keep going and going eventually becomes a physical challenge. Your possible options can work, but also consider just two horn notes by two players who then trade off to the other two players. Since many of your chords are just triads and plenty of instruments are simultaneously play the notes of the chord it's not necessary (like I was suggesting with the divisi violins) to have all the notes of the chord in the non-melodic parts.


as an orchestral string player, who has to play all the time in pretty much all the pieces, it's hard for me to resist thinking that brass players may need to harden up 

Would I be right in presuming that often a change is as good as a rest when it comes to playing? I know in strings in the 2nd movt of any Mozart concerto when your right shoulder starts to lock up from playing all those damn pianissimo cha-chas and off-beat stuff that when you get a chance at a small legato section or heaven forbid even a bit of a tune, it all comes right and the pain goes away.

It's a very interesting idea spreading between subsets of the horn section though - thanks! Although I'm then also tempted (while thinking of Shostakovich Symphony 10) about what if there were 8 horns in the section 

cheers


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## adrien

OK, I gave the horns a break for a couple of sections. I tried a few options other than ...cha cha, but they sounded weird.






Kept clarinet parts separate for now, maybe have separate solo clarinet line for solos and rand and file clarinets part for other stuff.

Having combined all these parts for the score for the conductor, do we need to separate them out in the players parts again? E.g. do we need separate oboe 1 and oboe 2 parts, or are players generally used to and expect to play off divisi parts?


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## Vasks

adrien said:


> Having combined all these parts for the score for the conductor, do we need to separate them out in the players parts again? E.g. do we need separate oboe 1 and oboe 2 parts, or are players generally used to and expect to play off divisi parts?


Sometimes a like pair of instruments play off a divisi part, but it's not normal and is usually annoying (and maybe confusing if the lines cross over each sometimes) for a single player to have see the other part while playing theirs. So yes, give each player their own separate part.


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## rbacce

I'm also a newbie composer. I like your piece, very Shostakovich like.

Which software did you use to write the score? Did you use any VST? If you did, which one?


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## adrien

rbacce said:


> I'm also a newbie composer. I like your piece, very Shostakovich like.
> 
> Which software did you use to write the score? Did you use any VST? If you did, which one?


I use Sibelius with NotePerformer. I can't recommend NotePerformer enough. No endless fiddling with expression maps or alternate prgram change tracks. It's also 1/10th the price (or less) of most VSTs


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## adrien

Vasks said:


> Sometimes a like pair of instruments play off a divisi part, but it's not normal and is usually annoying (and maybe confusing if the lines cross over each sometimes) for a single player to have see the other part while playing theirs. So yes, give each player their own separate part.


that is a pain, since Sibelius (and even Dorico I think) can't automatically split/merge this so you have to have separate staves, hidden in the score for the parts, and you have all manner of manual errors introduced.

Some Sibelius templates (film orchestra for one) have each woodwind on a separate stave in the score. Probably for this reasons, as when you're doing film scoring, and making many changes, you really don't need the extra unreliability introduced by this kind of problem.

A better solution might just be to print on bigger paper for the score (I can print up to SRA3).


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## Vasks

While engravers deal with this issue and I'm not sure all what they do, I do it another way.

I make three scores. First, my composing or what I call my sound score. It's an untransposed score that sounds like I want. Subtle dynamic changes via using numerous markings, rubato via using many different metronome markings, etc.

Then when that's done I duplicate it and then create a true score removing all the items I mentioned, plus combining percussion into parts for the number of players I'll be using and assigning whatever percussion instruments each is to use, etc.

After I have created a great looking conducting/study/piano score, I duplicate it and then start a parts only score. There I take say the two flutes that are one staff, add another flute staff just below, then copy the original flute staff and then paste it onto the empty extra flute staff, then I edit out the second flute on the top staff and then edit out the first flute on the second staff below Flute 1.


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## adrien

yes, I've just gone through this process.

The issue is if you decide you need to change some notes maybe a lot of notes. then you have 3 scores to alter. If you forget one, your design score may sound great, but when the players play it, you've lost your change.

Notation software really needs to deal with this properly. Dorico has their divisi config, which has some issues, but at least it's demonstrating that they are thinking about the issue, and hopefully in a future version we can tell it that N parts should be combined as voices on the conductor's score.


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## adrien

p.s. what notation software do you use?


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## Vasks

adrien said:


> The issue is if you decide you need to change some notes maybe a lot of notes.


That's why I do a major commitment in my sound score. Once I am convinced that this is "THE" piece that's it. Sure I might touch something up but it's only going to be a measure in a part here or there. No big whoop.

I too use Sibelius 8 something with NotePerformer.


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## adrien

thanks. Yes, maybe I need to be a bit more patient - live with the piece a bit longer and sort it out before going near any creation of things that will be read by humans.

I'm hoping Dorico will make a lot of this go away.

With the play tab, you can alter dynamics and other controls to your heart's content.

You can also define parts including scores (I think), so it may be possible to do all your work with only 1 set of source notation.


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## Vasks

adrien said:


> You can also define parts including scores (I think), so it may be possible to do all your work with only 1 set of source notation.


I was trying to imply in an earlier post that professional engravers who use Sibelius know much more than I, just a composer, know and they probably can get sound, score and parts all from one score. I just have not the initiative to undertake it all.

However, you're a lot younger than I am. I started composing while in high school in the 60's and until the 80's (when computer notation programs became a reality) final scores were done with ink on vellum/onion skin paper. Small ink mistakes could be fixed, but if you messed up a page too much you had to start that page all over again. Then parts were done one at a time on vellum with the same challenge as the score. EACH PART, one at a time by hand. So, you (all young composers) really have no reason to complain about today's work-arounds. Today, it's worlds easier than the old days.


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## adrien

LOL

yes, modern computer notation systems still have a long way to go, but they have at least advanced to the level where a complete hack like me with no training (other than playing an instrument) can pretend to be a composer and just drag dots until it sounds ok (to me and some others anyway) 

I guess that's why people had to study so much, because you couldn't really get a proper idea of what a composition would sound like until you could convince some humans to perform it, by which stage you already had to have made the parts. The closest thing most people got to an instrument with enough polyphony to hear things would be pianos, and after that you're down to study and experience I guess - trial and error.

It's kinda like software projects for the Apollo missions. They had to make sure it worked from the design stage onwards. We're cowboys nowadays.


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## adrien

Just read the scoring notes review of MuseScore 3.0 beta, and a feature was mentioned

"Generate parts from individual voices so you can combine instruments on a single staff" which is just what we were talking about yesterday.

Quite often though, separate voices aren't used for merged staves in a score (e.g. flutes, if playing the same rhythm will often show as only 1 voice).


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