# Beethoven plagiarized the 9th symphony's theme?



## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Before Curiosity kills me, please consider listening to the following piece at exactly 1:00 and tell me whether or not it greatly resembles the Ode to Joy theme:






What do you think?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Perhaps rather than making this thread specifically about Beethoven, you could make a thread suspicious musical coincidences that you've happened upon, that would be more fun. But yes, that does sound like Ode to Joy very much, though what Beethoven did with Ode to Joy was his own. Plagiarism was common in those days. Mozart plagiarized a Clementi sonata for the overture to the Magic Flute!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Mozart planted the seed. Beethoven grew the forest.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Perhaps rather than making this thread specifically about Beethoven, you could make a thread suspicious musical coincidences that you've happened upon, that would be more fun. But yes, that does sound like Ode to Joy very much, though what Beethoven did with Ode to Joy was his own. Plagiarism was common in those days. Mozart plagiarized a Clementi sonata for the overture to the Marriage of Figaro!


That would have been a great idea. Maybe you could do that one (about the suspicious thread thing).
Also, compare the Kyrie fugue from Mozart's Requiem, to And With His Stripes We Are Healed by Handel, to the Fugue in A minor from WTC 2 by Bach. All of those fugues use a very similiar theme but in a different key.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> That would have been a great idea. Maybe you could do that one (about the suspicious thread thing).
> Also, compare the Kyrie fugue from Mozart's Requiem, to And With His Stripes We Are Healed by Handel, to the Fugue in A minor from WTC 2 by Bach. All of those fugues use a very similiar theme but in a different key.


That's a coincidence I hadn't heard of before...

Why don't you make the thread? I make too many anyway.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> That's a coincidence I hadn't heard of before...
> 
> Why don't you make the thread? I make too many anyway.


I don't know. I've already made this thread, so making another one immediately seems to be against my personal moral code for some strange reason . . .


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Mozart planted the seed. Beethoven grew the forest.


Bach planted the seed. Everyone else grew trees, made forest together, only to have it cut down by "atonal music". (whatever that means) 



HerlockSholmes said:


> Before Curiosity kills me, please consider listening to the following piece at exactly 1:00 and tell me whether or not it greatly resembles the Ode to Joy theme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting thing you've found there. I wrote a bit about Ninth here, and Ode to Joy seems to me to be based on his Choral Fantasy, which is in turn based on his song Gegenliebe. If those two are related to Mozart's piece you posted, I couldn't tell.

Anyway, nice work Herlock. (Elementary, my dear Watson)


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

*Musical coincidences, both suspicious and innocent*

Here is the thread to talk about things you've heard in pieces that sound exactly the same, whether they are innocent coincidences or even just remind you of another piece, or whether plagiarism seems likely. Thread inspired by brief discussion with Herlocksholmes in his thread about Beethoven plagiarizing Mozart, which is a good example for what I'm thinking of here.

So, I'll start by mentioning one that is commonly known as a quote of Clementi's by Mozart. Clementi's famous B flat sonata is quote in the overture to The Marriage of Figaro.

Edit: Oops, I thought this was a new thread...

Let me correct this.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

graaf said:


> Bach planted the seed.


Rubbish! Bach just conned people with 'magic' beans!


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Rubbish! Bach just conned people with 'magic' beans!


You should be banned for your blasphemy.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> You should be banned for your blasphemy.


Polednice is unbannable!


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Schubert's 14th String Quartet is filled with homages to Beethoven. Most notably the last movement which is a minor version rip off of the 3rd movement of Beethoven's Kreutzer Sonata. The 1st movement also uses the same short-short-short long motif as the 5th symphony, and the 2nd movement uses the same rhythm as the famous movement from Beethoven's 7th.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Also everything Shostakovich wrote sounds suspiciously like something else Shostakovich wrote.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Nix said:


> Also everything Shostakovich wrote sounds suspiciously like something else Shostakovich wrote.


Same thing with Vivaldi.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

You know, through the years I've come across so many of these and now my mind is a blank...all those times I wanted to show (and at times tried) other people these similarities and realized they just don't have the ear to notice...with you fine folks, of course, that is not the case...now, I just gotta do some remembering or extensive comparing...
...really, though, there are only so many notes in nature and far many more chances to want to play the same notes as another person...I haven't read anything on it but seriously, does anyone really think Ludwig van had this mass on his ipod in the eighteen-twenties and he thought "oh, man, i'm gonna use that in my next symphony!" (would've had to have been a very high wattage player at that)...or, did he keep a score of several other composer's works in case he ran out of ideas.

I, for one, feel that neither is the case.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

kv466 said:


> You know, through the years I've come across so many of these and now my mind is a blank...all those times I wanted to show (and at times tried) other people these similarities and realized they just don't have the ear to notice...with you fine folks, of course, that is not the case...now, I just gotta do some remembering or extensive comparing...
> ...really, though, there are only so many notes in nature and far many more chances to want to play the same notes as another person...I haven't read anything on it but seriously, does anyone really think Ludwig van had this mass on his ipod in the eighteen-twenties and he thought "oh, man, i'm gonna use that in my next symphony!" (would've had to have been a very high wattage player at that)...or, did he keep a score of several other composer's works in case he ran out of ideas.


Who knows? I can't prove it. You can't disprove it.
But whether Beethoven knew about this piece or not, I think we can all still agree that the Ode to Joy theme sounds very similiar to it.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

That can not be questioned...if anyone should know it is you, Mr. Detective...investigate!


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

kv466 said:


> That can not be questioned...if anyone should know it is you, Mr. Detective...investigate!


Alas, my dear Watson, controlling space/time is not on my résumé.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I hereby declare that:

[dramatic, quiz-show style pause for four minutes and thirty-three seconds]

it was intentional plagiarism.

Mystery solved. Close the thread.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I hereby declare that:
> 
> [dramatic, quiz-show style pause for four minutes and thirty-three seconds]
> 
> ...


So . . . is it going to be universally acknowledged now that Beethoven was a plagiarist? Will his fan base collapse? Will his Wikipedia page mention this?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

HerlockSholmes said:


> So . . . is it going to be universally acknowledged now that Beethoven was a plagiarist? Will his fan base collapse? Will his Wikipedia page mention this?


None of those things will happen. This _has_ to be kept a secret. Only the members of TC will ever know. And so help me, if one of you even _thinks_ about letting it slip, there will be dire, painful consequences...


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