# Great singers of Schubert Lieder on record?



## flamencosketches

Schubert's Lieder form the core repertoire of that genre, full stop. He is to the Lied what Beethoven is to the symphony, Wagner to the opera, and Haydn to the string quartet. Thus, there are many, many extant recordings by singers of every register performing Schubert Lieder to varying levels of commitment.

Who are our favorites here? I have not heard many, but I will begin the discussion by singing the praises of the legendary Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Fritz Wunderlich. Both are just amazing in Schubert's song cycles. Another I have heard and enjoyed is Renée Fleming, who has a good disc of assorted Schubert Lieder on Decca.

Anyone I'm missing?


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## jegreenwood

I have an Elly Ameling disc that I love. I should get more.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Even though he is more known for French chansons, I really like Gerard Souzay in German Lieder.

I also like the golden oldies: Heinrich Schlusnus, Gerhard Husch, Aksel Schiotz, and Hans Hotter.


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## Art Rock

DFD, Wunderlich and Ameling were also the first ones I thought of.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Anyone I'm missing?


Just thinking of dead or long retired male singers for the moment

Peter Pears
Jorma Hynninen
Julius Patzak
Leo Slezak
Aksel Schiøtz
Peter Schreier
Ian Partidge 
Petr Munteanu
Georgi Vinogradov
Karl Erb
Heinrich Schlusnus 
Richard Tauber
Alexander Kipnis


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## Mandryka

Here's an interesting recital of winterreise with Pletnev that I just found, it had me hooked despite the sound






I'm going to head Winterreise as a ballet tomorrow evening! Angelin Preljocaj.


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## NLAdriaan

I have a few favourites:
Margaret Price and Wolfgang Sawallisch: '"selected songs" on Orfeo
Arleen Auger and Graham Johnson: Hyperion Schubert edition #9

Both include 'Der Hirt auf dem Felsen', for singer/piano/clarinet

Winterreise:
Schreier & Richter
DFD & Brendel

Schone Mullerin:
Haefliger/Daehler

Schwanengesang:
DFD & Brendel


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## Rogerx

If I had € 250,00 just waiting to spend I would buy the whole ; The Hyperion Schubert Edition - Complete Songs


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> If I had € 250,00 just waiting to spend I would buy the whole ; The Hyperion Schubert Edition - Complete Songs


I picked up the big DFD DGG box a few years ago for a lot less.


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## Rogerx

jegreenwood said:


> I picked up the big DFD DGG box a few years ago for a lot less.


Me too, but all those other voices would be great having.


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## Bourdon

Christa Ludwig recorded a few songs and not to forget Gundula Janowitz.










*Not to forget this one*


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## MrMeatScience

Maybe this opinion is passé, but I've always enjoyed Schwarzkopf in this repertoire especially, with particular attention given to the earlier recordings before she married Walter Legge.


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## howlingfantods

MrMeatScience said:


> Maybe this opinion is passé, but I've always enjoyed Schwarzkopf in this repertoire especially, with particular attention given to the earlier recordings before she married Walter Legge.


I'm not a particular fan of Schwarzkopf in opera, but in lieder, I've never heard anyone who comes close. I don't believe there's another singer of Gretchen am Spinnrade I'd care to hear. Her "Schubert Song Recital" (aka "12 Lieder") with Edwin Fischer is a classic in the repertoire.

For Winterreise, for me, Hans Hotter is unmatched. He recorded it three times, all excellent but the standout recording is probably the 1954 recording with Gerald Moore.


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## flamencosketches

Wasn't Schwarzkopf a Nazi of some sort? Or is it just another situation of "wrong place, wrong time"...? Perhaps I have her confused with someone else. Anyway, I do really like what I've heard of her singing, but I've not heard her Schubert. Nor have I heard Hans Hotter sing Schubert. Going to look into both as those sound great.


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## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> Wasn't Schwarzkopf a Nazi of some sort? Or is it just another situation of "wrong place, wrong time"...? Perhaps I have her confused with someone else. Anyway, I do really like what I've heard of her singing, but I've not heard her Schubert. Nor have I heard Hans Hotter sing Schubert. Going to look into both as those sound great.


The first infamous thing about Schwarzkopf is her Nazi party membership. She was certainly a member by 1940, and she may have joined much earlier. Until it became clear in 1981 that she held party card number 7,548,960, Schwarzkopf had denied being a Nazi. Once the news broke, she dismissed her membership as a professional necessity. It now seems clear that her Nazi past was in fact an active one and she is even reported to have been the mistress of a high ranking Nazi official. Great singer but highly flawed woman.


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## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> Wasn't Schwarzkopf a Nazi of some sort? Or is it just another situation of "wrong place, wrong time"...? Perhaps I have her confused with someone else. Anyway, I do really like what I've heard of her singing, but I've not heard her Schubert. Nor have I heard Hans Hotter sing Schubert. Going to look into both as those sound great.


Elizabeth Schwarzkopf was a fervent supporter of National Socialism in the Second World War. She maintained cordial relations with Nazi leaders ....


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## DavidA

Greatest Wintereisse:









Marred by coughing but will leave you spellbound


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## howlingfantods

flamencosketches said:


> Wasn't Schwarzkopf a Nazi of some sort?


Yes, very tainted due to her apparent enthusiasm. She joined several organizations, some which were hardly common for women or musicians to join, and she was apparently very plugged in--to the point where there's a belief she was lovers with a very high level SS officer, and even rumors that she had an affair with Goebbels.

She sanitized her reputation post-war largely by marrying Walter Legge, a highly influential Jewish record producer who's played a part in making her a very extensively recorded artist post-war.

If you find yourself unable to escape the nagging thought about her past and listen to her performances, I wouldn't blame you. There are certainly artists to listen to who did not join a plethora of Nazi organizations and literally sleep with Nazis.


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## Barbebleu

And we're off again. Enough with the anti-nazi rants already. Who on a thread asking about great singers of Schubert lieder is at all interested in your thoughts DavidA. Give it a rest for a little while or start your own thread on the perfidious influence of nazi-ism on the classical world. There's enough people on this forum who would be interested enough to fill it up - or would there?


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## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> Yes, very tainted due to her apparent enthusiasm. She joined several organizations, some which were hardly common for women or musicians to join, and she was apparently very plugged in--to the point where there's a belief she was lovers with a very high level SS officer, and even rumors that she had an affair with Goebbels.
> 
> She sanitized her reputation post-war largely by marrying *Walter Legge, a highly influential Jewish record producer* who's played a part in making her a very extensively recorded artist post-war.
> 
> If you find yourself unable to escape the nagging thought about her past and listen to her performances, I wouldn't blame you. There are certainly artists to listen to who did not join a plethora of Nazi organizations and literally sleep with Nazis.


Interesting that Legge is considered Jewish. Norman Lebrecht contacted me about this point and said he had researched Legge's family tree and there was no Jewish ancestry.


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## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> And we're off again. Enough with the anti-nazi rants already. Who on a thread asking about great singers of Schubert lieder is at all interested in your thoughts DavidA. Give it a rest for a little while or start your own thread on the perfidious influence of nazi-ism on the classical world. There's enough people on this forum who would be interested enough to fill it up - or would there?


If you actually follow the thread you will find I was answering a question put by another member which I did historically and without bias. Some of us are interested in the facts of history, unpleasant though they might be. I hardly think giving facts is an anti-Nazi rant. If you find fault with the facts that's another matter. But perhaps you don't enjoy facts. And please note other people have commented on this.


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## Guest

DFD is great in this repertoire - so much so that it is him that I picture when I think of the Lieder. Another great modern baritone that does well is Matthias Goerne. His album "Erlkönig" on HM is great. For tenors, I really enjoy the modern recordings of Mark Padmore, accompanied by Paul Lewis.


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## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> If you actually follow the thread you will find I was answering a question put by another member which I did historically and without bias. Some of us are interested in the facts of history, unpleasant though they might be. I hardly think giving facts is an anti-Nazi rant. If you find fault with the facts that's another matter. But perhaps you don't enjoy facts. And please note other people have commented on this.


I have no problem with facts particularly when they bear some relation to the point of this thread. In what wise would Schwarzkopf's political leanings affect her ability to interpret the songs of Schubert. Why is it necessary for some to feel the need to hijack a musical thread to raise some point from the past which any reasonably knowledgeable music fan will be well aware of anyway and doesn't need constant reminding of certain artists and composers shortcomings.

Looking up Wikipedia would fill you in on Elisabeth Schwarzkopf without the need to insert a comment on her past into a thread ostensibly about musical interpretation. Perhaps those who have raised this matter could have done a little research first! Or perhaps there are other agendas at work? Who can say.


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I have no problem with facts particularly when they bear some relation to the point of this thread. In what wise would Schwarzkopf's political leanings affect her ability to interpret the songs of Schubert. Why is it necessary for some to feel the need to hijack a musical thread to raise some point from the past which any reasonably knowledgeable music fan will be well aware of anyway and doesn't need constant reminding of certain artists and composers shortcomings.
> 
> Looking up Wikipedia would fill you in on Elisabeth Schwarzkopf without the need to insert a comment on her past into a thread ostensibly about musical interpretation. Perhaps those who have raised this matter could have done a little research first! Or perhaps there are other agendas at work? Who can say.


I think it's a fair point to bring up an artist's Nazi past, particularly one who was as apparently enthusiastic as Schwarzkopf. I'm not so fond of the conversation when it's applied to artists where the connection is more tenuous but Schwarzkopf was an enthusiastic supporter, and I know I personally find it a little hard to listen to her at times without thinking about what a thoroughly detestable person she was.


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## Barbebleu

So where are we on the likes of say Furtwangler, Strauss, Pfitzner and Goodall? Tainted or otherwise. Unlistenable or forgivable? At what point do you ignore their association and concentrate on their artistic merit. Perhaps there should be a thread?!


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> So where are we on the likes of say Furtwangler, Strauss, Pfitzner and Goodall? Tainted or otherwise. Unlistenable or forgivable? At what point do you ignore their association and concentrate on their artistic merit. Perhaps there should be a thread?!


I'd put Goodall and Schwarzkopf on the very problematic end, Furtwangler, Strauss and Pfitzner on the less problematic end. Goodall and Schwarzkopf were enthusiastic Nazis, the others were reluctant collaborators. I'm not sure why that would be a difficult distinction to draw.

She was a member of multiple Nazi organizations and was widely believed to have been the lover of a higher up SS officer. I'm not sure why you consider it objectionable for normal minded people to consider that as salient. I still listen to her but I don't blame anyone for going out of their way to avoid performers who were enthusiastic members of the Nazi party.

And in any case, Flamenco wasn't even saying that they were unable to listen to her, they just asked a factual question which several of us answered in varying degrees of detail. Are we supposed to never mention factual details about these artists? If someone asks as an aside whether Wagner was a dog or cat person, we shouldn't answer because it bears no relation to the details of the thread?


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> At what point do you ignore their association and concentrate on their artistic merit?


When they're dead.


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## flamencosketches

howlingfantods said:


> And in any case, Flamenco wasn't even saying that they were unable to listen to her, they just asked a factual question which several of us answered in varying degrees of detail. Are we supposed to never mention factual details about these artists? If someone asks as an aside whether Wagner was a dog or cat person, we shouldn't answer because it bears no relation to the details of the thread?


Correct, I was just curious; would have been better off keeping it to myself though!

In any case, it has been a topic of some debate in popular music over the last couple of decades: "separating the art from the artist"; can we enjoy the music of artists who have done objectionable things? Anyway, with Classical music, this is even bigger of an issue to grapple with. I won't participate in any argument, I just thought it was worth knowing and I asked.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> When they're dead.


Am I not concentrating on her artistic merits? I said that her recital with Fischer was a classic in the catalogue and is a peerless example of Schubert lieder performance. I'm aware of her unsavory history but I still acknowledge her artistry in this repertoire, but I also don't think the more controversial aspects of artists' lives are forbidden topics for discussion.


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## Barbebleu

So basically we are saying that regardless of the thread we should bring up any artists less reputable past? So whenever the name Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is mentioned in say, a Richard Strauss lieder thread, it will be ok to have another reminder of her nazi past. Or really any thread she gets a mention. The same with Goodall, Karajan even, and anyone else who made grave errors of judgement and are on the wrong side of history. That sort of post is going to get real old, real quick. I suppose neophyte listeners want to know these things but as I said before, Wikipedia is lying there just waiting to reveal all the prurient details you would ever need to know.

Btw I think they are fair game for discussion but on a thread devoted to such a topic, not great Schubert singers.


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## MarioDelMonacoViva

DavidA said:


> The first infamous thing about Schwarzkopf is her Nazi party membership. She was certainly a member by 1940, and she may have joined much earlier. Until it became clear in 1981 that she held party card number 7,548,960, Schwarzkopf had denied being a Nazi. Once the news broke, she dismissed her membership as a professional necessity. It now seems clear that her Nazi past was in fact an active one and she is even reported to have been the mistress of a high ranking Nazi official. Great singer but highly flawed woman.


By what standard was she a great singer? She was, at best, mediocre.


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## Barbebleu

By most standards I would think. You may not like her method of delivery but I would imagine most of us who like great singers would have her in that company. She certainly polarises opinion but so do Callas and Fischer-Dieskau! I have room for all three.


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## adriesba

I think Hans Hotter is my favorite.


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## Marc

Ameling, Fischer-Dieskau, Wunderlich, Lott, Prégardien, Goerne, Popp... a few of my favourite Schubert singers.


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## Wigmar

flamencosketches said:


> Schubert's Lieder form the core repertoire of that genre, full stop. He is to the Lied what Beethoven is to the symphony, Wagner to the opera, and Haydn to the string quartet. Thus, there are many, many extant recordings by singers of every register performing Schubert Lieder to varying levels of commitment.
> 
> Who are our favorites here? I have not heard many, but I will begin the discussion by singing the praises of the legendary Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Fritz Wunderlich. Both are just amazing in Schubert's song cycles. Another I have heard and enjoyed is Renée Fleming, who has a good disc of assorted Schubert Lieder on Decca.
> 
> Anyone I'm missing?


Gérard Souzay recorded some Schubert Lieder which I find interesting to listen to, among them as follows:

'Gesang des Harfners' no 1 D 478 (r 1950) 
'Erster Verlust' D 226 (r 1956)
'Der Jüngling an der Quelle' D 300 (r 1956)
'Der Wanderer an den Mond' D 871 (r 1956)
'Am Tage aller Seelen' D 343 (r 1954) 

Piano: Jacqueline Bonneau except D 343
Dalton Baldwin

Best regards 
wigmar


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Isn't there one with Franz Schubert himself singing? 🤪


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## Wigmar

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Isn't there one with Franz Schubert himself singing? 🤪


I will try to check it out 🙂


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## Wigmar

Wigmar said:


> I will try to check it out 🙂


I have a cd with Fischer-Deskau singing some Lieder, among them 'An die Musik' D 547 and 'Nähe des Geliebten' D 162 (Audite, from WDR broadcast tapes, Köln, 1954)
His 'An die Musik' is brilliant, with Günter Weissenborn


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## Rogerx

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Isn't there one with Franz Schubert himself singing? 🤪



Yes, release date to be announced .


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## Barbebleu

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Isn't there one with Franz Schubert himself singing? 🤪


I would pay good money to hear this!😂


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## jegreenwood

Barbebleu said:


> I would pay good money to hear this!😂


He only accepts Crypto these days.


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## marc.mitchel25

Seek out Jon West and Jerome Rose.


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## wkasimer

marc.mitchel25 said:


> Seek out Jon West and Jerome Rose.


Why?


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## Rogerx

marc.mitchel25 said:


> Seek out Jon West and Jerome Rose.


 Isn't Jerome Rose not a pianoplayer?


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