# Mass killings in the US



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"The US suffered more mass killings in 2019 than any year on record, according to researchers. A database compiled by the Associated Press (AP), USA Today and Northeastern University recorded 41 incidents and a total of 211 deaths." From the *BBC*.

The article continues in this alarmist vein while never noting that the overall rate of violent crime in the US has declined 51% since 1993 (Pew Research), and while the 211 deaths from mass shootings are just over one percent of the 17,250 murders reported in the US each year (Startista.com).

As always, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about crime and trends in crime in the United States, and precious little interest among the media to improve the situation.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> "The US suffered more mass killings in 2019 than any year on record, according to researchers. A database compiled by the Associated Press (AP), USA Today and Northeastern University recorded 41 incidents and a total of 211 deaths." From the *BBC*.
> 
> The article continues in this alarmist vein while never noting that the overall rate of violent crime in the US has declined 51% since 1993 (Pew Research), and while the 211 deaths from mass shootings are just over one percent of the 17,250 murders reported in the US each year (Startista.com).
> 
> As always, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about crime and trends in crime in the United States, and precious little interest among the media to improve the situation.


Ken, you must be far too young to remember the 1950s. Then, the idea of having someone armed with large magazine assault rifles or handguns with multiple magazines invading a church, a school, a shopping area and murdering dozens of children, worshippers, shoppers, merrymakers, was unthinkable and it didn't happen. There was no need for active shooter drills. This used to be America before the NRA became a major disruptor of our society by fostering a crazy fear of ''internal enemies" and encouraging the saturation of our social space with guns. The gun manufacturers, of course, smiled. And now Vladimir Putin also smiles as the NRA, which he continually infiltrates, increasingly performs his task of disrupting our society and converting America into A Nation of Scorpions--each citizen armed and ready to deal with lethal force against any threat, real or imagined.

But thanks again for bringing up the subject!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Gun Massacres

A listing of the most deadly gun massacres since 1949. We note that the old, sane NRA was seized by fanatics in 1977. In 1949, according to Gunwatch, there were 55 million guns in America. In 1977, there were 151 million guns, a rate of increase of 3.4 million guns per year. After the seizure of the NRA in 1977, the rate of increase jumped by 160% to a new rate of 5.6 million guns per year, resulting in a US gun supply of 347 million guns by 2012. The results of the efforts of the new, radical NRA to weaponize American society begin to show up in the Wilkes-Barre massacre of 1982. By 2005, the trend of rapidly increasing numbers of massacres is quite clear. Only those stupefied by ideology fail to see the trend. The schoolchildren see it. Their parents are beginning to see it.

1949. 13 dead Camden
1966. 18 dead Texas Tower
1982. 13 dead Wilkes-Barre
1984. 22 dead San Ysidro
1986. 15 dead Edmond P.O.
1990. 10 dead GMAC
1991. 24 dead Luby's
1999. 15 dead Columbine
2005. 10 dead Red Lake
2007. 33 dead Virginia Tech
2009. 11 dead Geneva County
2009.  13 dead Fort Hood
2009. 14 dead Binghamton 
2012. 12 dead Aurora
2012. 28 dead Sandy Hook
2013. 13 dead Washington Navy Yard
2015. 15 dead Umpqua
2015. 16 dead San Bernardino
2016. 50 dead Orlando
2017. 59 dead Las Vegas
2017. 27 dead Sutherland
2018. 17 dead Parkland
2018. 11 dead Pittsburgh
2018. 12 dead Thousand Oaks
2019 12 dead Virginia Beach
2019. 22 dead El Paso
2019. 9 dead Dayton

If we look at the years 1999 (Columbine) through 2012, we find the rate of increase of guns has jumped to 12.4 million per year. No surprise since the NRA insists that guns make us safer and sales increase after every massacre; there were two gun shows going nearby as parents mourned their dead children. Taking the 12.4 million guns per year through to 2018, there are now more than 420 million guns in these United States of America, making us in theory the safest country in the world. But somehow our homicide rate from guns is some 25 times higher than other high income countries. Could it be that the NRA and our guns are killing us? The answer is yes.

THE NRA MUST BE DESTROYED!


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

KenOC said:


> "The US suffered more mass killings in 2019 than any year on record, according to researchers. A database compiled by the Associated Press (AP), USA Today and Northeastern University recorded 41 incidents and a total of 211 deaths." From the *BBC*.
> 
> The article continues in this alarmist vein while never noting that the overall rate of violent crime in the US has declined 51% since 1993 (Pew Research), and while the 211 deaths from mass shootings are just over one percent of the 17,250 murders reported in the US each year (Startista.com).
> 
> As always, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about crime and trends in crime in the United States, and precious little interest among the media to improve the situation.


And illegal immigrants kiled more than 211 but you will not see that headline. Most of the shooting were gang related by people who can not legally have a gun.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Guns In The US:The Statistics Behind the Violence.....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Gun Massacres
> 
> A listing of the most deadly gun massacres since 1949. We note that the old, sane NRA was seized by fanatics in 1977. In 1949, according to Gunwatch, there were 55 million guns in America. In 1977, there were 151 million guns, a rate of increase of 3.4 million guns per year. After the seizure of the NRA in 1977, the rate of increase jumped by 160% to a new rate of 5.6 million guns per year, resulting in a US gun supply of 347 million guns by 2012. The results of the efforts of the new, radical NRA to weaponize American society begin to show up in the Wilkes-Barre massacre of 1982. By 2005, the trend of rapidly increasing numbers of massacres is quite clear. Only those stupefied by ideology fail to see the trend. The schoolchildren see it. Their parents are beginning to see it.
> 
> ...


The NRA will not be destroyed. The enemies to the Constitution foreign or domestic will be destroyed.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Gun Deaths/Ownership: USA v. Western Democracies

Western-Style Democracies, Showing Gun Deaths per 100,000 people (first figure) and Guns per 100 people (second figure):

Australia 0.93 21.7
Austria 2.63 30.4
Belgium 1.82 17.2
Canada 1.97 30.8
Denmark 1.28 12.0
Finland 3.25 27.5
France 2.83 31.2
Germany 1.01 30.3
Ireland 0.80 3.89
Netherlands 0.58 3.90
New Zealand 1.07 30.0
Norway 1.75 31.3
Spain 0.62 10.4
Sweden 1.47 31.6
Switzerland 3.01 24.5
United Kingdom 0.23 6.60
United States 10.54 101.54

Average Number of Gun Deaths per 100,000 for All Countries Above Other than USA: 1.58. USA: 10.54
Average Number of Guns per 100 People for All Countries Above Other than USA: 21.45. USA: 101.05

I believe that it is apparent from these statistics that the United States suffers from both an enormous saturation of guns throughout our society compared with the other Western democracies, but also the resultant much higher death rate linked to that saturation.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Gun Deaths/Ownership: USA v. Western Democracies
> 
> Western-Style Democracies, Showing Gun Deaths per 100,000 people (first figure) and Guns per 100 people (second figure):
> 
> ...


In 2018 more people in the US were killed by knives than by rifles. So do you want knives banned?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

More Discussion of Russian Efforts to Infiltrate the NRA as a Useful Idiot to Further Russian/Fascist Goals:

https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/general-politics-d1604-the-national-rifle-association.html

As Ken knows, these discussions are best placed downstairs in the Groups, but he is a tireless advocate for bringing them into the greater light and openness of the Community Forum. Where would we be without his efforts?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> In 2018 more people in the US were killed by knives than by rifles. So do you want knives banned?


Would you please point out exactly where I have ever posted that guns should be banned? I would be grateful (and really surprised). If you can't find such a post, please apologize.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Would you please point out exactly where I have ever posted that guns should be banned? I would be grateful (and really surprised). If you can't find such a post, please apologize.


I will apologize when you stop slandering a law abiding group like the NRA the moderators allow you to slander them.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

KenOC said:


> "The US suffered more mass killings in 2019 than any year on record, according to researchers. A database compiled by the Associated Press (AP), USA Today and Northeastern University recorded 41 incidents and a total of 211 deaths." From the *BBC*.
> 
> The article continues in this alarmist vein while never noting that the overall rate of violent crime in the US has declined 51% since 1993 (Pew Research), and while the 211 deaths from mass shootings are just over one percent of the 17,250 murders reported in the US each year (Startista.com).
> 
> As always, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about crime and trends in crime in the United States, and precious little interest among the media to improve the situation.


Of course they will not mention the drop in the violence rate. They will also not mention that the top to cities in murders are democrat run cities.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Gun Massacres
> 
> A listing of the most deadly gun massacres since 1949. We note that the old, sane NRA was seized by fanatics in 1977. In 1949, according to Gunwatch, there were 55 million guns in America. In 1977, there were 151 million guns, a rate of increase of 3.4 million guns per year. After the seizure of the NRA in 1977, the rate of increase jumped by 160% to a new rate of 5.6 million guns per year, resulting in a US gun supply of 347 million guns by 2012. The results of the efforts of the new, radical NRA to weaponize American society begin to show up in the Wilkes-Barre massacre of 1982. By 2005, the trend of rapidly increasing numbers of massacres is quite clear. Only those stupefied by ideology fail to see the trend. The schoolchildren see it. Their parents are beginning to see it.
> 
> ...


No what is killing us is drug gangs with members who can not legally own a gun still using guns to kill their competitors.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here's a fascinating article outlining how the NRA worked tirelessly to distort the 2nd Amendment to coincide with their psychotic, paranoid theories of our major enemy being our own elected government. It used to be that "Republicans" and conservatives thought the enemy was the Soviet Union and International Communism. But Russia's conversion under Putin to Fascism now seems more in congruence with current NRA thinking--that America's greatest enemy are--other Americans. So be armed and dangerous. Open Carry. Concealed Carry. Be ready to Open Fire--you never know about the fellow citizen coming toward you.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/nra-guns-second-amendment-106856?o=0


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> No what is killing us is drug gangs with members who can not legally own a gun still using guns to kill their competitors.


Where did they get those guns? Is it at least partly because there are more than seven (7) times as many guns in America now than there were in 1950. That's SEVEN TIMES as many, in case you missed it. Maybe the gang members stole them, or bought them using dummy buyers, or bought them legally at gun shows. It used to be that the NRA was in favor of universal background checks. But that was then; this is now. And now we have seven times as many guns. Seems crazy--and it is. Universal background checks? Vladimir wouldn't like that.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Ken, you must be far too young to remember the 1950s. Then, the idea of having someone armed with large magazine assault rifles or handguns with multiple magazines invading a church, a school, a shopping area and murdering dozens of children, worshippers, shoppers, merrymakers, was unthinkable and it didn't happen...


True. In those days we were practicing "duck and cover" exercises daily in school, pretending that would help us survive the nuclear Armageddon that the Russkies were about to unleash on us. Such things have their fashions.

BTW the greatest school massacre in US history took place in 1927. Look it up!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> True. In those days we were practicing "duck and cover" exercises daily in school, pretending that would help us survive the nuclear Armageddon that the Russkies were about to unleash on us. Such things have their fashions.
> 
> BTW the greatest school massacre in US history took place in 1927. Look it up!


Maybe the current saturation of American society with guns is just a "fashion" and we and the children will "outgrow" it. But the Russians never did drop the bomb on us, yet the gun killers come to our schools, churches, malls, clubs, and they just keep coming. Surely you can sense the difference in the two scenarios (can't you?). If I look up that greatest massacre, will that make all the recent and increasing massacres go away? Will that ease the children's fear? I often wonder at some posts......


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Another one just now in Fort Worth for you to add to the grim list of statistics.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

CnC Bartok said:


> Another one just now in Fort Worth for you to add to the grim list of statistics.


This one was ended by a good guy with a gun. Bad guy picked the wrong church to attack.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I am afraid the obsession with guns is something I will never understand. The UK looks good (for a change!) in those statistics.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

CnC Bartok said:


> I am afraid the obsession with guns is something I will never understand. The UK looks good (for a change!) in those statistics.


What is up with all the knife stabings in London. London has had more people killed in a knife attack than New York City has had with guns.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> What is up with all the knife stabings in London. London has had more people killed in a knife attack than New York City has had with guns.


Nice Whataboutism, Johnnie! Let's distract attention from the uncomfortable topic of unparalleled gun violence and mass killings in the USA, and talk about knifing in London instead. Are children being mass-knifed while cowering in their schools in London? Why was I not informed? I think every schoolchild in London should carry a gun. Start a thread.


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## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

"There are liars, damned liars and statisticians."

Mark Twain


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Nice Whataboutism, Johnnie! Let's distract attention from the uncomfortable topic of unparalleled gun violence and mass killings in the USA, and talk about knifing in London instead. Are children being mass-knifed while cowering in their schools in London? Why was I not informed? I think every schoolchild in London should carry a gun. Start a thread.


Why are so many stabbings in London they are a peaceful people.

Difference between Texas and New York bad guy in Texas taken out in a bodybag like he deserved.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Politics. **********


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> What is up with all the knife stabings in London. London has had more people killed in a knife attack than New York City has had with guns.


Predictable response. In London narwhal tusks are useful if confronted by a dangerous scary chap btw.

I understand that there are something like 300 murders per year in New York, and a record 126 in London this year. Comparable???? Seriously? Even if London is one of your Trump's no-go areas run by Muslims, or whatever guff he comes up with.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Why are so many stabbings in London they are a peaceful people.
> 
> Difference between Texas and New York bad guy in Texas taken out in a bodybag like he deserved.


How to Use the Internet: If a Certain US President Says Something to an NRA Convention (like some nonsense about US versus UK knife death rates), Look It Up Immediately to See If It's True. Google US v. UK knife deaths and you will get answers immediately that tell you what you already suspected--that the Certain President is "misinformed". But he won't say he lied, he'll say "Somebody told me that--maybe it's true--I think it's true--it's Probably True." That's America today.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

haydnguy said:


> Politics. **********


People's Lives.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Hey, that ain't working
That's the way you do it
Need body counts higher for cable TV!
Hey, that ain't working
That's the way you do it
Arming all your crazies for the killing sprees

I want my
I want my
I want my
F-16


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Nice Whataboutism, Johnnie! Let's distract attention from the uncomfortable topic of unparalleled gun violence and mass killings in the USA...


Unparalleled? You forget that the violent crime rate in the US has been reduced by _over half_ in the past quarter century. That seems to me a pretty amazing (and significant) story.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Unparalleled? You forget that the violent crime rate in the US has been reduced by _over half_ in the past quarter century. That seems to me a pretty amazing (and significant) story.


It is amazing. Now if we could put away for the people who use guns in a crime maybe it would be a bigger drop.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> What is up with all the knife stabings in London. London has had more people killed in a knife attack than New York City has had with guns.


You may be confusing knife-related injuries i.e. stabbing etc. with homicides. In 2018 there were 289 gun-related homicides in New York City. In 2018, in all of England and Wales, there were 289 knife-related homicides.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Unparalleled? You forget that the violent crime rate in the US has been reduced by _over half_ in the past quarter century. That seems to me a pretty amazing (and significant) story.


Are you sure about the accuracy of those statistics? The reason I ask is that producing low numbers has become an important criterion for evaluating the success of police precincts in major cities, with the predictable result that the statistics are being manipulated. Officers have incentives to misclassify violent offenses as nonviolent ones. Near my old neighborhood in North Manhattan, for example, a man committed seven sexual assaults before anyone was aware there was a serial predator at work in the neighborhood. The reason? Officers browbeat victims into reporting their assaults as B&E and other lesser offenses, so the violent felonious pattern was invisible. I just wonder how widespread this sort of thing is. It was pervasive in NYC a decade ago.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Unparalleled? You forget that the violent crime rate in the US has been reduced by _over half_ in the past quarter century. That seems to me a pretty amazing (and significant) story.


It is, and deserves close analysis in a thread all its own. We have been posting here--not about the overall rate of violent crime--but about gun deaths, gun massacres, and the malignant effect it has on our sense of cohesion as a people. We have not even scratched the topic of gun-effected suicide or of inner-city homicide and woundings due to the explosion of handguns within our cities. I'm happy that overall violent crime is down, but we have real problems here today with the ongoing rise of mass murder and concomitant public fears for their safety. Is the correct answer the NRA's call for More Guns? Open Carry? Concealed Carry? Citizens unleashing a lethal hail of gunfire on would-be killers? What has become of us as a nation? This will not end well, until and unless the public's support for effective gun legislation finally manages to survive being fatally poisoned in the Senate by Mitch McConnell, himself the Useful Idiot of the NRA.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> It is, and deserves close analysis in a thread all its own. We have been posting here--not about the overall rate of violent crime--but about gun deaths, gun massacres, and the malignant effect it has on our sense of cohesion as a people. We have not even scratched the topic of gun-effected suicide or of inner-city homicide and woundings due to the explosion of handguns within our cities. I'm happy that overall violent crime is down, but we have real problems here today with the ongoing rise of mass murder and concomitant public fears for their safety. Is the correct answer the NRA's call for More Guns? Open Carry? Concealed Carry? Citizens unleashing a lethal hail of gunfire on would-be killers? What has become of us as a nation? This will not end well, until and unless the public's support for effective gun legislation finally manages to survive being fatally poisoned in the Senate by Mitch McConnell, himself the Useful Idiot of the NRA.


Today in Texas a bad guy took a gun into a church. Most not have heard about Texas allowing churches to have armed security. Bad got off 2 shots the 3rd shot was by the security ending the shooting spree.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

I've been told in a lengthy private message that political discussions won't be tolerated here on TC. We will, as usual, have to wait until a serious argument is mounted against Left hegemony before any moves are made.

Re gun violence. It's terribly sad. Completely. A great nation brought to its perdition through use of the gun. No good quoting figures from the 1950s; the Mafia brought guns into prominence during Prohibition. (Yes, bring me 'your poor and your huddled masses'!!). Criminals, the Mafia, Prohibition; the USA was pretty lawless during the post WW1 period. Howard Hawks depicted that in his 1931 film "Scarface". Ever since then the American deification of guns was always going to have consequences.

I was thinking the other day about British cinema and, for the life of me, I cannot recall numbers of violent films with guns.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

(Now watch the moderators step in!!)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> Are you sure about the accuracy of those statistics? The reason I ask is that producing low numbers has become an important criterion for evaluating the success of police precincts in major cities, with the predictable result that the statistics are being manipulated...


There are indeed several problems with measurement, but multiple sources generally report similar results. For example, looking only at gun-related homicides, which are hard to misreport: "Despite a significant increase in the sales of firearms since 1994, the US has seen a drop in the annual rate of homicides using a firearm from 7.0 per 100,000 population in 1993 to 3.6 per 100,000." (Wikipedia, _Crime in the United States_)

Note that the 51% drop since 1993 cited in the OP is from Pew Research, which I have always found is an organization dedicated to getting their facts right.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

The vast majority of studies corroborate the drop in all violent crime over the last couple of decades. Nobody is really disputing that fact. What is always in dispute is the cause of that. Ironically, some of the legislation that Biden backed in the 90s may have had a lot to do with it, but with the major leftward shift in the Democratic party, and their once again heading towards the anti-law enforcement reputation they had back in the 80s (Clinton did a lot to shake off that reputation), he now has to distance himself and disavow some of his actual good accomplishments - but you do have to ignore those parts that were found unconstitutional. 

Mass killings are statistical anomalies in the grander scheme of things, so anybody who claims they can infer anything from them is selling your snake oil. You can't predict such statistically rare events. They tend to get massive news coverage in the age of 24-hour news cycles and "if it bleeds it leads" mentality in newsrooms. But you can't predict them, they aren't the major cause of deaths in this country by a long shot, and the perpetrators usually would not have been stopped by ANY of the existing or proposed gun control legislation. And unless anybody has information to the contrary, the perpetrators are not NRA members, nor were they aided in any way by any policy measures supported by the NRA.

The mentality that causes a person to go and try to inflict mass casualties ending with their own death is not understood, other than the fact that a lot of these individuals do seem to have a certain fascination with the Columbine killings. But as we have seen with numerous instances, even when people see troubling behavior and report it, law enforcement doesn't seem to want to look into it (like what happened with the Florida school shooting of a couple years back).


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Today in Texas a bad guy took a gun into a church. Most not have heard about Texas allowing churches to have armed security. Bad got off 2 shots the 3rd shot was by the security ending the shooting spree.


Yes. America today. Bad guys coming into churches, schools, synagogues, malls, maybe soon libraries, hospitals, armed with lethal military or other rapid-fire firepower, big magazines. America used to be not like this. Armed security in churches? This is not normal, this ought not to be normal, even in Texas. When Wayne LaPierre looks in his bathroom mirror and looks into his own eyes, what does he see?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I agree with the thrust of DrMike's argument: it is the way it is (though it used to not be this way) and we'll just have to get hardened to the mass killings--they're not going away anytime soon. Just hope it isn't you or yours, and try to comfort your children as you send them off to school.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> There are indeed several problems with measurement, but multiple sources generally report similar results. For example, looking only at gun-related homicides, which are hard to misreport: "Despite a significant increase in the sales of firearms since 1994, the US has seen a drop in the annual rate of homicides using a firearm from 7.0 per 100,000 population in 1993 to 3.6 per 100,000." (Wikipedia, _Crime in the United States_)
> 
> Note that the 51% drop since 1993 cited in the OP is from Pew Research, which I have always found is an organization dedicated to getting their facts right.


Ken, thanks for the carefully selected and unlinked references to the Pew study. You have chosen surgically from the fine mass of material presented. I notice you do not reference the steady increase in gun homicide and suicide rates since 2008 to today, nor the terrible toll gun suicides exact, even more than homicides. I urge all interested to review the entire Pew Research data to gain an accurate overall picture of the US gun infestation and how we compare with the rest of the advanced Western societies.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Strange Magic said:


> I agree with the thrust of DrMike's argument: it is the way it is (though it used to not be this way) and we'll just have to get hardened to the mass killings--they're not going away anytime soon. Just hope it isn't you or yours, and try to comfort your children as you send them off to school.


My kids are more at risk of dying in a car accident on the way to school than in a school shooting. I don't freak out, bemoan the increase in automobiles on the roads, or curse the corruption of AAA. Nor do I seek to pass more traffic legislation that would infringe upon constitutionally protected rights and not actually affect automobile fatalities at all.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

DrMike said:


> My kids are more at risk of dying in a car accident on the way to school than in a school shooting. I don't freak out, bemoan the increase in automobiles on the roads, or curse the corruption of AAA. Nor do I seek to pass more traffic legislation that would infringe upon constitutionally protected rights and not actually affect automobile fatalities at all.


You have clearly made your peace with the current situation. What is, is good.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Strange Magic said:


> You have clearly made your peace with the current situation. What is, is good.


I said no such thing. I don't have the solution for it, and neither does anyone else, least of all you. And until we know realistically - and constitutionally - how to address this menace, I'm not in favor of the "try anything approach" because I do think sometimes doing something can be worse than doing nothing. In many instances, and in particular the Marjory Stoneman shooting, if Sheriff Israel had paid any of the complaints and warning signs about the killer any heed, it might have been prevented, and if his officer had done his job, the number of deaths would have been lower. That means that just following laws already on the books would have either prevented or mitigated the severity of that shooting. Let's get right what we already have on the books before we start blindly flailing around, pretending we know what we're doing.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I'm still waiting for the day when all the guns out there will save us from all the guns out there. 

It's just like waiting for Godot - but with dead children.

Oh pass the popcorn!!!! I can't imagine how this one will turn out. Hollywood Ending here we come.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Planned Parenthood kills 1 million babies every 3 years. But yes. Let's quibble over 200 in one year killed with guns. Let's pretend abortions are constitutionally protected but gun ownership isn't.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

DrMike said:


> My kids are more at risk of dying in a car accident on the way to school than in a school shooting. I don't freak out, bemoan the increase in automobiles on the roads, or curse the corruption of AAA. Nor do I seek to pass more traffic legislation that would infringe upon constitutionally protected rights and not actually affect automobile fatalities at all.


If your child was killed by a car driven by a drunk driver or by a car driven by someone purposely driving into a crowd, you would be demanding to know why that person had a license to drive. Yet, nowhere have I ever seen you strongly supporting legislation to keep guns out of the hands of those more likely to use guns to kill. Your mantra is 'We know nothing so we should do nothing.' Well, we do know something and we're not acting on it.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

DaveM said:


> If your child was killed by a car driven by a drunk driver or by a car driven by someone purposely driving into a crowd, you would be demanding to know why that person had a license to drive. Yet, nowhere have I ever seen you strongly supporting legislation to keep guns out of the hands of those more likely to use guns to kill. Your mantra is 'We know nothing so we should do nothing.' Well, we do know something and we're not acting on it.


Drunk driving is already illegal. You can't prosecute someone (removing their license) for a crime they have not yet committed. So how is it you claim to know I would propose any such thing? I would want that person to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I would not propose an unconstitutional law that would punish people before they have committed a crime, or robbed them of their rights, because there is a possibility they might one day commit a crime nobody could predict.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

You know what else correlates with the rise in these types of mass shootings? Increases in broken homes and Young Men being raised without a father. Decreased church attendance and faith. Something bigger than just increased mass shootings is happening in this country, of which these all seem to be symptoms, along with increased opioid addiction. Something started changing in the mentality of the country beginning with the baby boomer generation. The Greatest Generation volunteered in droves to fight to end tyranny. Now we fight to make marijuana and abortion legal. The problem is beyond merely more gun ownership.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

When we approved this thread, we hoped that people would discuss issues related to mass killings in the US without bringing in politicians (Putin and Mitch McConnell), calling for the destruction of the NRA, referring to the constitution, mentioning democrat run cities, referring to Left hegemony, or talking about Planned Parenthood killing babies.

I know some discussion of mass killings will appear to be political, but the discussions does not have to be blatantly political. There are many issues that have little to do with politics. 

Have mass killings increased when single murders have decreased? If so, why?

Is the definition of mass killings consistent? Would different definitions lead to significantly differing results?

Is there causal evidence of policies or actions that reduce mass killings or simply correlations?

So how about we try to move forward without resorting to obvious political points. Basically, if your main purpose is to oppose conservative/republican or liberal/democratic ideas or policies, please don't post in the thread.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

DrMike said:


> You know what else correlates with the rise in these types of mass shootings? Increases in broken homes and Young Men being raised without a father. Decreased church attendance and faith. Something bigger than just increased mass shootings is happening in this country, of which these all seem to be symptoms, along with increased opioid addiction. Something started changing in the mentality of the country beginning with the baby boomer generation. The Greatest Generation volunteered in droves to fight to end tyranny. Now we fight to make marijuana and abortion legal. The problem is beyond merely more gun ownership.


You were doing so well until you added the irrelevant '_Now we fight to make marijuana and abortion legal._' Still, the rest of the post is one of your better works.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

DaveM said:


> You were doing so well until you added the irrelevant '_Now we fight to make marijuana and abortion legal._' Still, the rest of the post is one of your better works.


But it is symbolic of how we now fight for things that are either immoral or frivolous. Regardless of whether marijuana is better or worse than other legal substances, the fact that so much effort is being put into legalizing a frivolity when so many other problems exist just goes to show that we have lost sight of what is truly important anymore. So much money is spent on escapism, and looking for easy ways out. People want meaning in their lives, and when they can't find it, they settle for escapism. Using a gun to solve your anger issues and your problems with other people rather than doing the hard work of living with others; escaping to drugs and online when the real world is just too hard; ditching the responsibilities of adulthood and family until you are halfway through life, when people used to do that as teenagers. They are all just symptoms of societal rot. All anybody wants anymore is for someone - or something - to take away any responsibility and consequences from their life, so they are free to chase after frivolous leisure. And we indulge it. We tell them that their problems are not of their own causing, but rather due to somebody else and their actions, and therefore the blame for the problem, as well as the demand for the solution, is pushed onto "somebody else." If I'm not responsible for my situation, then I surely can't be responsible for getting out of that situation - someone else should pay for it.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

DrMike said:


> You know what else correlates with the rise in these types of mass shootings? Increases in broken homes and Young Men being raised without a father. Decreased church attendance and faith. Something bigger than just increased mass shootings is happening in this country, of which these all seem to be symptoms, along with increased opioid addiction. Something started changing in the mentality of the country beginning with the baby boomer generation. The Greatest Generation volunteered in droves to fight to end tyranny. Now we fight to make marijuana and abortion legal. The problem is beyond merely more gun ownership.


Being a Christian will soon constitute a crime.

I say let the liberals drive this thing into the ground. Let them see what really lies at the end of their so called 'revolution'.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> Being a Christian will soon be a crime.
> 
> I say let the liberals crash and burn this thing. Let them see what really lies at the end of their so called 'revolution'.


No. We shouldn't let anybody crash and burn "this thing" because this thing is the greatest source of liberty and prosperity that this world has ever known, and when it crashes and burns, what will step in to take its place? You joke about Christianity being a crime, but there are places on this earth where a religious affiliation can, in fact, be a crime. In truth, many of what we consider "free" western nations at times in the not too distant past made your religious choice potentially criminal - the 1st amendment was not a purely theoretical construct, and the Founding Fathers weren't thinking of Muslim nations when they wrote it.

A country needs moral underpinnings. And the fact of the matter is that all sides have discarded this notion in the choice of their leaders, putting party and partisan fighting above any consideration as to whether the leader of their party should at least attempt to be a moral and virtuous person. But you know what? The problem isn't at the top. The problem is with us. Sure, blame whoever the current president is. The fact of the matter is that at any given time, like it or not, the president is largely a reflection of the morality of the people. You think Bill Clinton was an anomaly in the sexual mores of this country at the time? Or that Donald Trump is now? Hah. Watch any movie, watch any TV show, listen to popular music - it is all there. The sexual values of this country are in the toilet - yet we bemoan a twice-divorced, philandering president? You think "grab 'em by the p****" is so different from what American college students throng to beaches on Spring Break to do? Sex is cheapened because sex has become cheap. It used to be that to sleep with a woman, a man had to promise to marry her, support her and her children for life. Now, hell, you don't even necessarily have to finish the first date.

And that is all just one aspect of all of this. This mass shooting problem is nothing that can be solved with simplistic legislation, because the mass shootings are just an outward manifestation of a deeper rot. So I do think pointless legislation is worse than doing nothing, because pointless, ineffective legislation would get passed, then everybody would pat themselves on the back, claiming they did it, when all they did was rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, and when the problem continues, they'll just amend that legislation and again call it good. And pretend that it is all simply about who owns how many guns.

Garbage.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

the amount of guns is obviously the main reason why the US has such high rates of violent crimes
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

DaveM said:


> If your child was killed by a car driven by a drunk driver or by a car driven by someone purposely driving into a crowd, you would be demanding to know why that person had a license to drive. Yet, nowhere have I ever seen you strongly supporting legislation to keep guns out of the hands of those more likely to use guns to kill. Your mantra is 'We know nothing so we should do nothing.' Well, we do know something and we're not acting on it.


There are numerous gun laws on the books right now. Murder is against the law everywhere but still people break that law. Felons are not allowed to own guns but still break them. Why not enforce the laws already on the books before writing new ones.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Jacck said:


> the amount of guns is obviously the main reason why the US has such high rates of violent crimes
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html


99 percent of legal gun owners in the US never break the law. Why not severely punish the 1 percent who break the law?


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Jacck said:


> the amount of guns is obviously the main reason why the US has such high rates of violent crimes
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html


Sure. If you like simplistic answers to complex problems. And then I guess we can blame the high number of needles and syringes for drug use. And obesity is due to the abundance of food.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacck said:


> the amount of guns is obviously the main reason why the US has such high rates of violent crimes
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html


I'd keep out of it, Jacck. For we Europeans this is way beyond our understanding or indeed credulity......


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Ah yes ladies and ventlemen, I give you a bronze age story of time honored morality that can inoculate against the scourge of mass shootings that happen every day in every country of the world. I mean the story of Uriah alone is known to stop mass murderers in the middle of reload and who wants to shoot up a Walmart when focusing on what one can do with two daughters in a cave? I mean, places like The Czech Republic and Japan have hourly mass shootings, but these are not reported in the fake press of America. 

10-4 there good buddies, now keep yer powder dry!

P.S. How you doing on supplements? You good?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

DrMike said:


> You know what else correlates with the rise in these types of mass shootings? Increases in broken homes and Young Men being raised without a father. Decreased church attendance and faith. Something bigger than just increased mass shootings is happening in this country, of which these all seem to be symptoms, along with increased opioid addiction. Something started changing in the mentality of the country beginning with the baby boomer generation. The Greatest Generation volunteered in droves to fight to end tyranny. Now we fight to make marijuana and abortion legal. The problem is beyond merely more gun ownership.


Other things that correlate with the rise in mass shootings include the commercialization of space travel, the use of ethanol in gasoline, the rise in smart phone use, the economic importance of the internet, and electric cars. Like the things you have listed, none has anything to do with the rise in mass shootings. What definitely relates to the causation of recent mass shootings and bombings is the rise in right wing and white supremacist terrorism.



DrMike said:


> But it is symbolic of how we now fight for *things that are either immoral or frivolous*. Regardless of whether marijuana is better or worse than other legal substances, the fact that so much effort is being put into legalizing a frivolity when so many other problems exist just goes to show that we have lost sight of *what is truly important anymore.*


You clearly know nothing about the history of cannabis prohibition and the political and racial agenda behind it. Prohibition was orchestrated by Harry Ainslinger, first director of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, for two reasons: to increase the power and funding of the bureau he headed, and to further a personal agenda of racist persecution against blacks and Latinos. Educate yourself:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harry-anslinger-the-man-behind-the-marijuana-ban/

This issue is "truly important" to the thousands of people subjected to "immoral and frivolous" prosecution, whose careers were ended and whose voting rights have been permanently revoked for their involvement with a largely harmless substance.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Room2201974 said:


> Ah yes ladies and ventlemen, I give you a bronze age story of time honored morality that can inoculate against the scourge of mass shootings that happen every day in every country of the world. I mean the story of Uriah alone is known to stop mass murderers in the middle of reload and who wants to shoot up a Walmart when focusing on what one can do with two daughters in a cave? I mean, places like The Czech Republic and Japan have hourly mass shootings, but these are not reported in the fake press of America.
> 
> 10-4 there good buddies, now keep yer powder dry!
> 
> P.S. How you doing on supplements? You good?


Not even sure what this is supposed to mean. I'm guessing you are implying that anybody who doesn't think as you do must be a conspiracy-fearing freak? Because dismissing those with which you disagree as simply crazy absolves you of having to actually argue your case?


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

EdwardBast said:


> Other things that correlate with the rise in mass shootings include the commercialization of space travel, the use of ethanol in gasoline, the rise in smart phone use, the economic importance of the internet, and electric cars. Like the things you have listed, none has anything to do with the rise in mass shootings. What definitely relates to the causation of recent mass shootings and bombings is the rise in right wing and white supremacist terrorism.
> 
> You clearly know nothing about the history of cannabis prohibition and the political and racial agenda behind it. Prohibition was orchestrated by Harry Ainslinger, first director of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, for two reasons: to increase the power and funding of the bureau he headed, and to further a personal agenda of racist persecution against blacks and Latinos. Educate yourself:
> 
> ...


First of all, no, those don't correlate at all with the rise in mass shootings. But there is lots of evidence of social breakdown that comes from broken homes. Broken homes, or one-parent homes are much more likely to be below the poverty line. Males raised in broken homes without a father figure are statistically much more likely to commit crime. So you see, those actually are factors that might have a realistic impact on whether a person decides to go shoot a whole bunch of people, as opposed to Elon Musk launching his car into space. The problem is the mentality that drives a person to kill lots of people. Take away the guns and the person will still have that mentality. The thing we need to do is understand, and prevent, the mental problem that leads to the killing. I could prevent my children from burning their hand on the stove by simply removing all of the stoves in my house (the Sleeping Beauty solution - simply remove all spinning wheels and your daughter won't prick her finger on one; but we know that didn't work), or I could teach the reason for not doing so and continue to be able to fry my okra on the stovetop.

Whatever the history of cannabis prohibition was, the current movement to legalize it is, I believe, not nearly so high-minded. I think it is a strong dose of libertarianism combined with people who want to get stoned legally combined with people who see it as a major cash cow. You could still keep it illegal and drop the offense down to some lesser charge that doesn't rise to the level of revoking voting rights. That is just a matter of legislation. But the truth of the matter is that the number of people incarcerated for frivolous drug charges, while still too high, is greatly inflated. Most who actually see jail time are usually repeat offenders who have done much more than simple possession. But political overreach likes to exaggerate.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> I'd keep out of it, Jacck. For we Europeans this is way beyond our understanding or indeed credulity......


Don't take this the wrong way, but you are actually right. The U.S. has a tradition of gun ownership that your countries do not, and gun ownership was viewed as so important as to have the right written into that foundational document which according to mmsbls I am not allowed to mention here. But it is a different mentality here than in Europe. While much of our legal tradition stems from English Common Law, we veered off quite a bit. Rather than Parliament/Congress being sovereign, here the people are, and we specifically restricted what the government can and can't do.

At any rate, our nation was born in and grew up in the age of the firearm, and for much of its history it was an essential tool for survival. It is a history that simply does not correlate much with any European one, certainly not any one that had a fairly recent history of totalitarian control (for Jacck) or one where Parliament and a Crown held absolute power.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2019)

Jacck said:


> the amount of guns is obviously the main reason why the US has such high rates of violent crimes
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html


Because a New York Times opinion piece says it is so? Sorry. I like their reporting sections. Their opinion/editorial sections suck. There they are no different than the opinion shows on MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Thread closed for moderator consideration.


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