# Round One: Voi lo sapate: Rasa, Davidsen, Muzio



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am going to try three contests at once to keep your ears fresh. Mezzos and Sopranos do this aria.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Pitting Davidsen in this piece against Bruna Rasa and Muzio is cruel to the Norwegian and will do her no favors. 
Just saying’.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ALT said:


> Pitting Davidsen in this piece against Bruna Rasa and Muzio is cruel to the Norwegian and will do her no favors.
> Just saying'.


She has many fans on this forum if you read the posts and I seek to be inclusive occasionally. All the next round is just old school. I am curious how Rasa and Muzio do against each other. For me that is the big question here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What a marvelous demonstration this is, a demonstration of virtually everything that has disappeared from the art and craft of singing. Sandwiching Lise Davidsen's attempt at this style of music between two of its greatest practitioners from the verismo era itself may be, as ALT says, cruel, but it's a lesson in both vocal technique and music history.

I've known the Muzio recording for most of my life, and became acquainted with Bruna Rasa much more recently. I wouldn't have thought Muzio easy to best here, but Bruna Rasa, Mascagni's favorite Santuzza, manages it. Every note of this trembles with emotion, and yet the voice doesn't falter.

We might hope that Davidsen listens to these recordings, but we have to wonder, given the changes in vocal pedagogy from their era to ours, whether it would do any good. I've been forced to conclude that the problem is not merely that singers don't sing like they used to, but that they can't.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Davidson gives a lesson of cloudy diction, closed mouth singing and not letting the voice out. She also doesn’t use her chest voice, which spoils things. Possibly does not know what she’s singing. She tries to be sad, not desperate. This aria is not for her, so wrong headed. The accompaniment is as if for the tea room, sanitized. 

Lina Bruna Rasa was famous for the role of Santuzza and was a favorite of the composer. She sings almost lightly, with clean lines, and dips into the chest register as appropriate and sometimes with exaggerated emphases. I wanted her to go on, but the aria seems to end abruptly. She does sound like a young girl, though.

Not so Claudia Muzio, who is more like a tragedy queen. This is from her second recording period, which are the best known and better quality recordings. The first, I understand were noisier - the Edison method. Muzio had the more solid voice and sounds more into the Verismo mode with stronger accents and plunges into the lower register. But for all that, never vulgar. 

A hard choice between Rasa and Muzio. But I will plump for Muzio, for the greater breadth of voice, which I like. Would that I could vote for both.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

MAS said:


> Davidson gives a lesson of cloudy diction, closed mouth singing and not letting the voice out. She also doesn't use her chest voice, which spoils things. Possibly does not know what she's singing. She tries to be sad, not desperate. This aria is not for her, so wrong headed. The accompaniment is as if for the tea room, sanitized.
> 
> Lina Bruna Rasa was famous for the role of Santuzza and was a favorite of the composer. She sings almost lightly, with clean lines, and dips into the chest register as appropriate and sometimes with exaggerated emphases. I wanted her to go on, but the aria seems to end abruptly. She does sound like a young girl, though.
> 
> ...


This one was from the third set of discs (Pathe, Edison then Columbia).

Davidsen is out of her league here (but most sopranos would be as well). Bruna Rasa showed why she was the composer's favorite, very impressive voice. But Muzio is something else; she communicates as if she is speaking, and those melting soft singing!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

silentio said:


> This one was from the third set of discs (Pathe, Edison then Columbia).


Thanks for that, I didn't know about the Pathé ones.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I don't know how to articulate it, but in the performance of Muzio and Bruna Rasa, the voices "leap out" -there is a sense of immediacy. This is even more apparent from Muzio's in the phrase leading to the climax A4. Davidsen sounds kind of cold and "veiled".


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I will go with Bruna Rasa but her studio recording of this opera with Gigli has never impressed me much compared to her live performance a couple of years earlier in which she imparts far more drama.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> I don't know how to articulate it, but in the performance of Muzio and Bruna Rasa, the voices "leap out" -there is a sense of immediacy. This is even more apparent from Muzio's in the phrase leading to the climax A4. Davidsen sounds kind of cold and "veiled".


Let me add another bit of imagery. The voices of Bruna Rasa and Muzio are like living things that move by themselves. Davidsen's is like an object that has to be moved but resists.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Nothing to say about the idiomatic voices that these composers were thinking of when they created these roles. Rasa and Muzio are very close to each other, even in the slight tremolo. Muzio implements more drama here which in a recital can make you weary, that's why later singers developed a new style to sing in studios with less drama like notably Callas and Tebaldi. For me, Rasa has a slight edge for the fuller sound.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This one's a lead pipe cinch. At first I thought Muzio was going to give me big problems because I love her so much, but I was weaned on Bruna Rasa and in my opinion she ran away with it, vibrato and all.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What a marvelous demonstration this is, a demonstration of virtually everything that has disappeared from the art and craft of singing. Sandwiching Lise Davidsen's attempt at this style of music between two of its greatest practitioners from the verismo era itself may be, as ALT says, cruel, but it's a lesson in both vocal technique and music history.
> 
> I've known the Muzio recording for most of my life, and became acquainted with Bruna Rasa much more recently. I wouldn't have thought Muzio easy to best here, but Bruna Rasa, Mascagni's favorite Santuzza, manages it. Every note of this trembles with emotion, and yet the voice doesn't falter.
> 
> We might hope that Davidsen listens to these recordings, but we have to wonder, given the changes in vocal pedagogy from their era to ours, whether it would do any good. I've been forced to conclude that the problem is not merely that singers don't sing like they used to, but that they can't.


I must confess part of me wanted to see how the darling's of today compare to the old school best. I wonder if it is just that we are just more years removed from the classic bel canto teachings. Raza was so fabulous I did not think Muzio could do better, but to my ears it was slightly better. What I am interested in is the next three are also some really heavy hitters and this might be one of the few instances where other singers could stand a chance to beat Callas, who is of course perfect for this aria. Competition is more fun when it is tight.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

khalid said:


> Nothing to say about the idiomatic voices that these composers were thinking of when they created these roles. Rasa and Muzio are very close to each other, even in the slight tremolo. Muzio implements more drama here which in a recital can make you weary, that's why later singers developed a new style to sing in studios with less drama like notably Callas and Tebaldi. For me, Rasa has a slight edge for the fuller sound.


I didn't know that about the reduced drama for studio singing, even for Callas!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I didn't know that about the reduced drama for studio singing, even for Callas!


Callas did scale back for the studio recordings, even down to eschewing the high D at the end of the trio "(_O di qual sei tu victima_)" in the studio *Norma* (1954),whereas this would always sing it in performance, except for the ones in Paris (1964/1965) when her voice was practicality gone. If you compare the La Scala *Un Ballo in Maschera* with the studio recording (1956), you can tell how sings out much more and is more forceful in the climactic moments, and the high notes more intense. She is relatively more subtle in the studio.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

silentio said:


> I don't know how to articulate it, but in the performance of Muzio and Bruna Rasa, the voices "leap out" -there is a sense of immediacy. This is even more apparent from Muzio's in the phrase leading to the climax A4. Davidsen sounds kind of cold and "veiled".


This is the main difference between pharyngeal singing that produces a clear sound and dictions, which is the only real way of singing. And the mask singing (nasality), that gives a fake depth and unclear dictions. This is why people hate or at least have to acquire a taste for opera nowadays. They're told that this kind of noise is the real opera singing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

It was much easier to decide which singer I wouldn't vote for than which one I would. Sandwiched between Rasa and Muzio, Davidsen didn't even have a chance. I didn't get any real sense of passion or desperation (maybe such primary colour emotions embarass us these days) and her occluded diction and lack of any chest voice didn't help. Davidsen out at the first hurdle.

Then we have Rasa and Muzio, whose performances are quite similar. They both dip gloriously into chest voice, they both sing with passion and conviction, but in the end I'm going for Muzio, whose response to the words and the dramatic situation seemed to me just that bit more specific.

Incidentally, didn't we have a _Voi lo sapete_ competition a while back? I seem to recall Baltsa among the more modern singers. She too surpasses what Davidsen does here.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Davidson doesn’t stand a chance against these glorious veristas! Her voice is weak, sloppy diction, and she has no idea of the verismo style. Lina Bruna Rasa was Mascagni’s favourite Santuzza, and one can understand why. Very intense singing, dipping into chest voice wherever possible, with her strong spinto voice. Her ‘‘Ah, l'amai’’ is harrowing. She summons the right pathos for “ Priva dell'onor mio rimango”, and her final “Io piango” is desperately powerful. 
As for Muzio, her lyric voice is less suited to this role than Bruna Rasa’s, but she was the La Divina of her generation, and in my opinion the greatest verismo soprano. The veiled, tearful tone, the spontaneity in the phrasing render an elegance and poignancy to the blood and guts nature of this music! Note the soft, lyrical hopelessness in ‘Me l’ha rapito’ and how she extends it to the following lines, then the frantic “Lola e Turiddu s'amano” before she ends with the contrasting “Io piango, io piango!”. Simply wonderful! While I admire Bruna Rasa a lot, I must vote for Muzio.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Muzio for me. Muzio is a bit like Callas to me. When you are listening to an aria you think this is the way it's supposed to be sung.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It was much easier to decide which singer I wouldn't vote for than which one I would. Sandwiched between Rasa and Muzio, Davidsen didn't even have a chance. I didn't get any real sense of passion or desperation (maybe such primary colour emotions embarass us these days) and her occluded diction and lack of any chest voice didn't help. Davidsen out at the first hurdle.
> 
> Then we have Rasa and Muzio, whose performances are quite similar. They both dip gloriously into chest voice, they both sing with passion and conviction, but in the end I'm going for Muzio, whose response to the words and the dramatic situation seemed to me just that bit more specific.
> 
> Incidentally, didn't we have a _Voi lo sapete_ competition a while back? I seem to recall Baltsa among the more modern singers. She too surpasses what Davidsen does here.


It didn't turn up in the search I did before I created this.. Baltsa is on my radar thanks to the group. It is not impossible that we did one before. My memory is selective... it can remember things I am not searching for at the moment.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It didn't turn up in the search I did before I created this.. Baltsa is on my radar thanks to the group. It is not impossible that we did one before. My memory is selective... it can remember things I am not searching for at the moment.


I found this one. I don't know what other rounds there are or who eventually won.

MEZZO/CONTRALTO TOURNAMENT (By Request): Obraztsova vs Baltsa


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Muzio by a slim margin for slightly better legato. It was a close call.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I found this one. I don't know what other rounds there are or who eventually won.
> 
> MEZZO/CONTRALTO TOURNAMENT (By Request): Obraztsova vs Baltsa


Thank you. I wish you were in my employ as my super Google scout. Lucky I didn't pick them this time. I love Obratzsova but it is a lonely love on this forum LOL I do: search talkclassical/opera and then what I seek.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I'm pretty sure I've heard Muzio on a great opera singers album a long time ago but that's it. She carried away the competition as far as I'm concerned. With the reputation I didn't expect so much lyricism but I thought the drama was on the line, it was passionate and beautiful and if I'm getting the chest bit right, I liked her approach better than Bruna Rasa who felt like the Caballe joke upside down....where can I add a little more chest? (Caballe, Corelli, Bruna Rasa...spreading that comparison a little thin?) The io piango felt more dramatic for not having heard the sudden drop into chest so many times. Bruna Rasa more overtly distraught, Muzio more womanly distraught. I liked Bruna Rasa very much, just liked Muzio more. - is this Bruna Rasa's role? I grew up with the Gigli Cavalleria with her (I checked Tsaraslondon...it was her), She's been mentioned on here for voi lo sapete alot, and I don't ever remember her being mentioned in another role?

A week and a half ago I'd never heard of Lise Davidsen. I walk into an opera house and she blows me away. Come on here to find people not fans. Listen to this and shake my head, going why in Gods name is she singing this? I'd think early in a career she'd want to consolidate a reputation in her strengths and this is not it. I don't think anyone could impress in dramatic material like this without the words and I was really without the words. But the style, the sound...nothing sounded right.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Davidsen is a pro and chose to record this so she takes her lumps. But as a representative of modern singing I ask...and even though it may sound sarcastic its not, its a sincere question.....does Muzio sing Strauss? if the modern singers problem in this instance is repertoire selection, that's a different thing from not being able to sing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Davidsen is a pro and chose to record this so she takes her lumps. But as a representative of modern singing I ask...and even though it may sound sarcastic its not, its a sincere question.....does Muzio sing Strauss? if the modern singers problem in this instance is repertoire selection, that's a different thing from not being able to sing.


I'm not aware of Muzio ever singing Strauss, or anything in any language besides Italian, but is there any reason to think that she couldn't have? It's obvious that Davidsen hasn't a clue about verismo style, but whether her flat rendition of "Voi lo sapete" is vocally deficient as well as misconceived shouldn't be hard to determine if we know what we're listening for. In just the first couple of lines I hear a laziness of the voice, a dullness and sluggishness of response, a failure of the tone to vibrate and "speak" readily. Concommitant with this is a fuzzy, occluded diction; vowels and consonants alike are approximations of themselves - near enough if you already know what they are (unlike some of Sutherland's), but part and parcel of the general effect of vagueness and inertia. There is an absence of true legato; the line doesn't move smoothly and easily through an unbroken stream of vibrant tone. Instead, notes are placed end to end but resonate individually, sometimes not achieving their full (though inadequate) vibrancy until they're already under way. It's as if each note is a separate project to be accomplished by a separate effort of mind and body. All this is to define more clearly what I meant when I remarked that the voices of Muzio and Bruna Rasa are like living things that move by themselves, while Davidsen's is like an object that has to be moved and resists.

Yes, there's a problem here with repertoire. The emotional immediacy and volatility which defines verismo is simply not possible to achieve with a voice that can't react instantaneously to the singer's expressive impulses - if, of course, she has some. My feeling is that Davidsen has tailored her interpretation of the music to the limitations of her voice, although "tailored" may suggest more conscious choice and intentionality than was actually involved. It isn't merely a case of not knowing how to sing this music properly, but of being unable to do so (although a more musically intelligent singer could at least make a more compelling stab at it). It's probably true that certain other repertoires will make her vocal deficiencies less obvious and less important, at least to some listeners. But the deficiencies are there, and I've noticed them in other things she has recorded.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> There is an absence of true legato; the line doesn't move smoothly and easily through an unbroken stream of vibrant tone. Instead, notes are placed end to end but resonate individually, sometimes not achieving their full (though inadequate) vibrancy until they're already under way. It's as if each note is a separate project to be accomplished by a separate effort of mind and body. All this is to define more clearly what I meant when I remarked that the voices of Muzio and Bruna Rasa are like living things that move by themselves, while Davidsen's is like an object that has to be moved and resists.


As it happens, I had exactly the same impression when listening to her recording of Strauss's _Vier letzte Lieder_. There was no real sense of the long legato line that we hear in the singing of such classic accounts by the likes of Norman, Schwarzkopf, Popp, Della Casa, Janowirtz, Fleming et al. The vocal problems I hear here in Mascagni are not because she is singing the wrong repertoire, though it might make them more obvious.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As it happens, I had exactly the same impression when listening to her recording of Strauss's _Vier letzte Lieder_. There was no real sense of the long legato line that we hear in the singing of such classic accounts by the likes of Norman, Schwarzkopf, Popp, Della Casa, Janowirtz, Fleming et al. The vocal problems I hear here in Mascagni are not because she is singing the wrong repertoire, though it might make them more obvious.


I remember listening to a bit of the _4 Last _after you spoke of the recording and agreeing with your finding. Her habit of starting notes without vibrato is a bad one; it breaks the line. I can't tell how much of the problem is technical and how much merely misconceived musicality. She certainly doesn't always do it, but there's still that pull of inertia - if that makes sense - in the sound production. It's a drawback in any style, but fatal to verismo. Maybe she should try blues.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not aware of Muzio ever singing Strauss, or anything in any language besides Italian, but is there any reason to think that she couldn't have? It's obvious that Davidsen hasn't a clue about verismo style, but whether her flat rendition of "Voi lo sapete" is vocally deficient as well as misconceived shouldn't be hard to determine if we know what we're listening for. In just the first couple of lines I hear a laziness of the voice, a dullness and sluggishness of response, a failure of the tone to vibrate and "speak" readily. Concommitant with this is a fuzzy, occluded diction; vowels and consonants alike are approximations of themselves - near enough if you already know what they are (unlike some of Sutherland's), but part and parcel of the general effect of vagueness and inertia. There is an absence of true legato; the line doesn't move smoothly and easily through an unbroken stream of vibrant tone. Instead, notes are placed end to end but resonate individually, sometimes not achieving their full (though inadequate) vibrancy until they're already under way. It's as if each note is a separate project to be accomplished by a separate effort of mind and body. All this is to define more clearly what I meant when I remarked that the voices of Muzio and Bruna Rasa are like living things that move by themselves, while Davidsen's is like an object that has to be moved and resists.
> 
> Yes, there's a problem here with repertoire. The emotional immediacy and volatility which defines verismo is simply not possible to achieve with a voice that can't react instantaneously to the singer's expressive impulses - if, of course, she has some. My feeling is that Davidsen has tailored her interpretation of the music to the limitations of her voice, although "tailored" may suggest more conscious choice and intentionality than was actually involved. It isn't merely a case of not knowing how to sing this music properly, but of being unable to do so (although a more musically intelligent singer could at least make a more compelling stab at it). It's probably true that certain other repertoires will make her vocal deficiencies less obvious and less important, at least to some listeners. But the deficiencies are there, and I've noticed them in other things she has recorded.


You would be a great judge in a vocal competition but I would pray you would not be mine LOL


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> I remember listening to a bit of the _4 Last _after you spoke of the recording and agreeing with your finding. Her habit of starting notes without vibrato is a bad one; it breaks the line. I can't tell how much of the problem is technical and how much merely misconceived musicality. She certainly doesn't always do it, but there's still that pull of inertia - if that makes sense - in the sound production. It's a drawback in any style, but fatal to verismo. Maybe she should try blues.


Not familiar with Davidsen's repertoire and training but I think what you're describing is characteristic of Wagnerian style, singing every note as a slight crescendo, not attacking each note with full power as in italian. If you listen to Nilsson or Flagstad especially the liebestod, they all have this style although more subtle. It's used to minimizes vocal fatigue, especially for endless parts like Isolde and Brünnhilde. Even Sutherland who admired Flagstad and was trained in the beginning as a wagnerian soprano had this style and it became an obstacle to learn the true italian legato.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not aware of Muzio ever singing Strauss, or anything in any language besides Italian, but is there any reason to think that she couldn't have? It's obvious that Davidsen hasn't a clue about verismo style, but whether her flat rendition of "Voi lo sapete" is vocally deficient as well as misconceived shouldn't be hard to determine if we know what we're listening for. In just the first couple of lines I hear a laziness of the voice, a dullness and sluggishness of response, a failure of the tone to vibrate and "speak" readily. Concommitant with this is a fuzzy, occluded diction; vowels and consonants alike are approximations of themselves - near enough if you already know what they are (unlike some of Sutherland's), but part and parcel of the general effect of vagueness and inertia. There is an absence of true legato; the line doesn't move smoothly and easily through an unbroken stream of vibrant tone. Instead, notes are placed end to end but resonate individually, sometimes not achieving their full (though inadequate) vibrancy until they're already under way. It's as if each note is a separate project to be accomplished by a separate effort of mind and body. All this is to define more clearly what I meant when I remarked that the voices of Muzio and Bruna Rasa are like living things that move by themselves, while Davidsen's is like an object that has to be moved and resists.
> 
> Yes, there's a problem here with repertoire. The emotional immediacy and volatility which defines verismo is simply not possible to achieve with a voice that can't react instantaneously to the singer's expressive impulses - if, of course, she has some. My feeling is that Davidsen has tailored her interpretation of the music to the limitations of her voice, although "tailored" may suggest more conscious choice and intentionality than was actually involved. It isn't merely a case of not knowing how to sing this music properly, but of being unable to do so (although a more musically intelligent singer could at least make a more compelling stab at it). It's probably true that certain other repertoires will make her vocal deficiencies less obvious and less important, at least to some listeners. But the deficiencies are there, and I've noticed them in other things she has recorded.


Early , passionate attempts not-with-standing, I'm not enough of a singer to account for the GREAT discrepancy between the quality of voi lo sapete and the entire role of Ariadne. She was wrong from the word go. The voice was very unfocused here and not a hint of that live. But language ( which so completely befuddled her) and musical demands were so different that, even if she should have showed up better than this, I have to think for her they were the crucial ingredients. I'm very eager to hear the four last songs.

The major objection I heard on here to the Mets Ariadne clip were about the oft-mentioned chest voice. I listened and even though the voice was more stunning in the theatre I thought the clip was still great. I agree with whomever was debating me that day that on the clip, you would not want the vibrato any slower or wider. On the Mascagni, the one thing that held together was the top...if vibrato is veering anywhere suspect, I don't usually expect it to improve up top but for her thats where the voice gains focus. Going to be interesting to see how she goes.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Love the way Muzio peels the paint off the scenery which is the way to tackle this. Cossotto does this too! You need the Italians to do this properly. Oh boy! See the agony!


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not aware of Muzio ever singing Strauss, or anything in any language besides Italian, but is there any reason to think that she couldn't have?


I don't think she recorded any Strauss (although she did sing some Wagner in her career). Here is the Mariä Wiegenlied by Strauss' contemporary Max Reger. This piece is close to Strauss' orchestral songs in style.

I want to hear your opinions about Muzio's vs. some modern performances:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

khalid said:


> Not familiar with Davidsen's repertoire and training but I think what you're describing is characteristic of Wagnerian style, singing every note as a slight crescendo, not attacking each note with full power as in italian. If you listen to Nilsson or Flagstad especially the liebestod, they all have this style although more subtle. It's used to minimizes vocal fatigue, especially for endless parts like Isolde and Brünnhilde. Even Sutherland who admired Flagstad and was trained in the beginning as a wagnerian soprano had this style and it became an obstacle to learn the true italian legato.


It would be poor musicianship to sing every note of anything as a crescendo, slight or otherwise, in Wagner or any other music. The notion that this is "Wagnerian style" would come as a surprise to these folks:






Swelling the volume of single notes in a phrase, like attacking notes from below or attacking them without vibrato, is a specific expressive device to be used where appropriate. There are singers who abuse some or all of these practices, either from a lack of musical sense or from a deficient technique which prevents them from sustaining a legato line and producing expressive chiaroscuro within it. Neither Flagstad nor Nilsson, whom you mention, exhibits such technical deficiency.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

marlow said:


> Love the way Muzio peels the paint off the scenery which is the way to tackle this. Cossotto does this too! You need the Italians to do this properly. Oh boy! See the agony!


You are ruining my next rounds . Be patient! I have 6 more ladies including your leaked contestant. You can always DM me a suggestion... that is how I found this gem.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

this swelling device, which we've all heard, might at times sound intentional but I believe that its often a filling out of the sound in large voices. They do not all speak fully right on the note. But its not an idea of a way to sing a musical line. I agree, I heard it alot in voi lo sapete. I don't in the ariadne clip.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> I don't think she recorded any Strauss (although she did sing some Wagner in her career). Here is the Mariä Wiegenlied by Strauss' contemporary Max Reger. This piece is close to Strauss' orchestral songs in style.
> 
> I want to hear your opinions about Muzio's vs. some modern performances:


I don't hear any resemblance to Strauss in Reger's lullaby. On top of that, Muzio sings it in Italian, so that the words don't scan with the music as they do in the original.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You are ruining my next rounds . Be patient! I have 6 more ladies including your leaked contestant. You can always DM me a suggestion... that is how I found this gem.


you're welcome


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> It would be poor musicianship to sing every note of anything as a crescendo, slight or otherwise, in Wagner or any other music. The notion that this is "Wagnerian style" would come as a surprise to these folks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But it isn't used only at certain phrases as an expressive device. I hear this swelling constantly from Nilsson, Varnay and Flagstad, and it is quite noticeable when compared to Italianate singers. I think it is due to the slower attacks of Flagstad and Nilsson compared to Leider and most Italians that one hears this swelling effect.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> But it isn't used only at certain phrases as an expressive device. I hear this swelling constantly from Nilsson, Varnay and Flagstad, and it is quite noticeable when compared to Italianate singers. I think it is due to the slower attacks of Flagstad and Nilsson compared to Leider and most Italians that one hears this swelling effect.


What do you mean by "swelling" and by "constantly"? Do you hear it here?






Or here?






Or here?






I hear an occasional crescendo on long notes, especially when they climax a phrase or constitute the major part of a musical gesture. Is that what you're referring to?

I described Lise Davidsen's singing as follows:

_"In just the first couple of lines I hear a laziness of the voice, a dullness and sluggishness of response, a failure of the tone to vibrate and "speak" readily. Concommitant with this is a fuzzy, occluded diction; vowels and consonants alike are approximations of themselves - near enough if you already know what they are (unlike some of Sutherland's), but part and parcel of the general effect of vagueness and inertia. There is an absence of true legato; the line doesn't move smoothly and easily through an unbroken stream of vibrant tone. Instead, notes are placed end to end but resonate individually, sometimes not achieving their full (though inadequate) vibrancy until they're already under way. It's as if each note is a separate project to be accomplished by a separate effort of mind and body. All this is to define more clearly what I meant when I remarked that the voices of Muzio and Bruna Rasa are like living things that move by themselves, while Davidsen's is like an object that has to be moved and resists."_

I wouldn't describe Flagstad or Nilsson this way. Would you?


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> It would be poor musicianship to sing every note of anything as a crescendo, slight or otherwise, in Wagner or any other music. The notion that this is "Wagnerian style" would come as a surprise to these folks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's no musical notation by the composer to do any of these, it's just a stylistic approach preferred in late German operas. Again, Davidsen isn't doing it right, but I think this was her aim. Legato isn't as important in Wagnerian singing, in contrary to italian where you put the least amount of stress on consonants, German is more about the explosion of the consonants, especially the last one as Flagstad said which breaks the legato really. Compare Callas to Nilsson, both in in questa reggia and Liebstod. Callas as a bel canto artist is singing with one smooth line, always attacking with full power, whereas Nilsson has an evidently slower attack, especially in longer phrases. Flagstad has smoother line than Nilsson as she was trained in lyric italian roles like Mimi and Nedda until she was in her 40s, but still it's evident in some long parts like here,


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

khalid said:


> There's no musical notation by the composer to do any of these, it's just a stylistic approach preferred in late German operas. Again, Davidsen isn't doing it right, but I think this was her aim. Legato isn't as important in Wagnerian singing, in contrary to italian where you put the least amount of stress on consonants, German is more about the explosion of the consonants, especially the last one as Flagstad said which breaks the legato really. Compare Callas to Nilsson, both in in questa reggia and Liebstod. Callas as a bel canto artist is singing with one smooth line, always attacking with full power, whereas Nilsson has an evidently slower attack, especially in longer phrases. Flagstad has smoother line than Nilsson as she was trained in lyric italian roles like Mimi and Nedda until she was in her 40s, but still it's evident in some long parts like here,


I suppose I can hear a bit of what you're driving at in this excerpt, but I don't see that this is necessarily something to do with the language. Listen to some of the lyrics, like Rethberg, Grümmer or Schwarzkopf in, say, Elsa's Dream or in _Leise, leise_ from *Der Frieschütz*. All of them are able to spin out a pure line and legato, despite singing in German.

Or are you saying it is something confined to larger voices? I've noticed in the singing of Nilsson, but not of Flagstad. It's one of the reasons I don't much like Nilsson's voice and prefer even Turandot sung by a more Italianate voice, as we have heard in some of the comparisons recenty.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> What do you mean by "swelling" and by "constantly"? Do you hear it here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's the audible increase of volume particularly in sustained notes, due to the slower attack. The notes take time to reach peak volume. With Italianate voices, this is barely noticeable due to the faster attack. The second video is unavailable to me, but I hear this in the other two. Listen particularly to the slower, longer phrases, where this is more evident. Nilsson does this in "Allein", "Vater", "hinabgescheucht", "Agamemnon" to mention a few. It's less conspicuous with Flagstad in the excerpt you've posted, but she too does it. You can hear it clearly in 'Liebestod' which is slower. 
Coming to Davidsen, no I would never even mention her alongside Flagstad or Nilsson. The latter are great singers, and my mentioning of this stylistic feature is not intended as a criticism, just as an observation I see in 20th century Wagnerians.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Or are you saying it is something confined to larger voices? I've noticed in the singing of Nilsson, but not of Flagstad. It's one of the reasons I don't much like Nilsson's voice and prefer even Turandot sung by a more Italianate voice, as we have heard in some of the comparisons recenty.


It's a Wagnerian style to be specific which can apply to some Strauss. I don't know much about Schwarzkopf but I think she was mainly Mozartian soprano. Mozart was the godfather of bel canto, his style of singing is purely Italian. While German style evolved from French which was mainly influenced by Gluck who reformed Opera.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

khalid said:


> It's a Wagnerian style to be specific which can apply to some Strauss. I don't know much about Schwarzkopf but I think she was mainly Mozartian soprano. Mozart was the godfather of bel canto, his style of singing is purely Italian. While German style evolved from French which was mainly influenced by Gluck who reformed Opera.


Schwarzkopf was one of the most celebrated Strauss sopranos of her day, renowned for her on stage portrayals of the Marschallin and the Countess Madeleine, and also for _Vire letzte Lieder_, of whch she made two superb recordings. Her Marschallin on Karajan's first recording is considered by many, including myself, to be definitive. She also sang Sophie and Zerbinetta in her youth and the role of Ariadne (again in Karajan's recording) on disc. Her stage Wagner roles were confined to First Rhinemaiden and Eva at Bayreuth, but she made wonderful recordings of Elisabeth's and Elsa's arias.

She did sing quite a bit of Mozart and was particularly well known for her Fiordiligi, Donna Elvira and Countess, but she sang a wide repertoire in her youth which also embraced Verdi (two recordings of the Verdi Requiem and a sparkling Alice in *Falstaff*) and Puccini and even Mélisande.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

khalid said:


> Legato isn't as important in Wagnerian singing.........Flagstad has smoother line than Nilsson as she was trained in lyric italian roles like Mimi and Nedda until she was in her 40s, but still it's evident in some long parts like here,


I listened to the opening of the Siegfried and heard, in small degree, the swelling that I associate AT TIMES with larger voices, speaking just a little more slowly on the note. But more to the point, that to me is not just a smoother line compared to someone else...that's a smooth line period! Legato is what that opening is all about!


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

ScottK said:


> I listened to the opening of the Siegfried and heard, in small degree, the swelling that I associate AT TIMES with larger voices, speaking just a little more slowly on the note. But more to the point, that to me is not just a smoother line compared to someone else...that's a smooth line period! Legato is what that opening is all about!


Ponselle, Cinga, and Callas etc. all had huge voices, none had this style as in italian legato is crucial. Flagstad's singing is smooth here indeed, but don't forget that her background was mostly lyric Italian repertoire for the first half of her career. Most great wagnerian sopranos didn't have that smooth line like Nilsson or Varanay. German is harsher than italian, you need to stress consonants as Flagstad said in order to be heard in an opera house which practically interrupts legato.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

khalid said:


> Ponselle, Cinga, and Callas etc. all had huge voices, none had this style as in italian legato is crucial. Flagstad's singing is smooth here indeed, but don't forget that her background was mostly lyric Italian repertoire for the first half of her career. Most great wagnerian sopranos didn't have that smooth line like Nilsson or Varanay. German is harsher than italian, you need to stress consonants as Flagstad said in order to be heard in an opera house which practically interrupts legato.


Maybe this is more the germanic style that you're describing? Now I dont hear any of the swelling mentioned earlier and its essentially connceted but at the same time not the seamless flow we heard in Flagstad, and I could hear where one would argue that the articulation of consonants is part of the reason.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_"Her [Lise Davidsen's] habit of starting notes without vibrato is a bad one; it breaks the line. I can't tell how much of the problem is technical and how much merely misconceived musicality. She certainly doesn't always do it, but there's still that pull of inertia - if that makes sense - in the sound production. It's a drawback in any style, but fatal to verismo."_ (Post #28)



khalid said:


> Not familiar with Davidsen's repertoire and training but I think what you're describing is characteristic of Wagnerian style, singing every note as a slight crescendo, not attacking each note with full power as in italian. If you listen to Nilsson or Flagstad especially the liebestod, they all have this style although more subtle. It's used to minimizes vocal fatigue, especially for endless parts like Isolde and Brünnhilde. Even Sutherland who admired Flagstad and was trained in the beginning as a wagnerian soprano had this style and it became an obstacle to learn the true italian legato.


Now that we've managed to divert the conversation from what it was originally about and create confusion, it may be appropriate to bring back the two posts above. The second of them is a response to the first and represents a misunderstanding of it.

1. Attacking notes with straight (vibratoless) tone is not a normal practice of Flagstad, Nilsson, or any other opera singer with good musicianship. It's a special effect to be used sparingly and judiciously, for a particular purpose. Poor musicians may consider it expressive and think it's a valid alternative to legato singing, which they either don't understand or can't do.

2. Singing "every note" as a slight crescendo is not a practice of any singer, regardless of the style of music they're singing. Flagstad and Nilsson do not have this "style."

3. The idea that singers of Wagner normally attack notes at partial volume for the purpose of minimizing vocal fatigue appears bizarre. On what do you base this assertion?

4. What does it mean to say that Sutherland was "trained as a Wagnerian soprano"? How is such training different from ordinary vocal training? For that matter, what is a "Wagnerian soprano"?

5. Are there recorded examples of Sutherland "singing every note as a slight crescendo, not attacking each note with full power as in italian"?

What would make the most sense, in order to bring some real sense to a conversation which I suspect is mostly nonsense, would be to produce recordings of a variety of singers demonstrating these various assertions. I produced three recordings in post #40, none of which show Flagstad and Nilsson making slight crescendos on "every note," or even most of the time. The discussion would surely benefit from fewer unsupported assertions about singers and styles of singing, and more demonstrations of what great - and not so great - singers actually do.

What I observe, as a listener and a former singer, is that it's common, legitimate, and even musically important, to swell the volume on certain notes, especially long notes, depending on the structure of the musical phrase; it maintains the energy of the phrase, it gives the phrase shape, and it keeps the music from sounding inert and dull. Differences in styles of music _are_ relevant, but not in the odd and simplistic way being claimed here. The vocal writing of Wagner and later composers is structured differently from that of earlier melodic traditions in being more fragmented and speech-like. Rather than building a long, continuous, symmetrical melody such as we find in Mozart or Donizetti, we have in Wagner and Strauss a flexible, constantly changing sequence of phrases, each of which has its own beginning, ending and climactic point. How to articulate these more conversational phrases in a musically meaningful and vocally sound manner is something a singer has to learn; it may not come naturally to singers who have sung only more traditionally melodic music, and they may indeed fall into bad practices such as giving undue emphasis to certain notes, using straight tone, and introducing little "expressive" swells on notes simply because they don't understand the melodic structure of the phrase. Wagner himself had to deal with these problems when his works and style of writing were unfamiliar, and he explicitly asked his singers to emulate the Italian manner of legato singing, saying "there are no recitatives in my operas, it's all arias."

What I want to emphasize is that the faults mentioned here *do not constitute a distinct "style" of singing.* They are not "Wagnerian style." We can hear these faults in mediocre performances of Wagner - which, unfortunately, are more the rule than the exception - but the greatest singers of Wagner have exemplifed the principles of bel canto singing and sound musicianship.

The lady whose singing set off this conversation, Lise Davidsen, has a few things to learn about both technique and style - including "Wagnerian style" - before she can join the ranks of the greats.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I liked reading your spiel because, as usual, you say lots of smart things I never thought of. But the swelling thing Khalid is writing about is something I’ve most definitely experienced and discovering more about it through conversation- isn’t that a dialectic? - is to me worthwhile, enjoyable and not, to quote you, nonsense.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

If you read my other replies you would have spared yourself the time to write these questions and essay that you answered yourself in. Being nonsense can work both ways, I don't see you providing sources for each of your claims, but I don't confuse replies with a scientific studies also. The funny thing is the recordings you posted really show that effect, even more so in Elektra's monologue by Nilsson. I did give you examples of Nilsson, Flagstad, and Callas, if you're having hard time noticing it as I and the others do, you can slow it down, or even use some software to visualize the sound wave. About the difference between Wagnerian training and normal training I'll quote you 


Woodduck said:


> The vocal writing of Wagner and later composers is structured differently from that of earlier melodic traditions in being more fragmented and speech-like. Rather than building a long, continuous, symmetrical melody such as we find in Mozart or Donizetti, we have in Wagner and Strauss a flexible, constantly changing sequence of phrases, each of which has its own beginning, ending and climactic point. How to articulate these more conversational phrases in a musically meaningful and vocally sound manner is something a singer has to learn


 As you answered yourself, yes musical notes are the same, however voices aren't just musical instruments, there need to be stylistic trainings also. As for Sutherland's problematic legato, listen to her Casta diva 



 , apart from the written crescendo in the first note, she always attack notes slower than Callas or Ponselle, or any italian soprano. lastly I quote my earlier reply to remove any confusion


khalid said:


> Davidsen isn't doing it right, but I think this was her aim.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

ScottK said:


> Maybe this is more the germanic style that you're describing? Now I dont hear any of the swelling mentioned earlier and its essentially connceted but at the same time not the seamless flow we heard in Flagstad, and I could hear where one would argue that the articulation of consonants is part of the reason.


About the stress on the consonants? yes this is characteristic of Wagnerian singing as Flagstad said here 



 while in bel canto it's quite the opposite, you never stress on consonants as Callas said in her master classes. However as you said, she doesn't attack notes slowly as Flagstad, Nilsson, and Lehmann.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I don't know if I'm understanding you right, but I think what Khaled and ScottK are saying is that singers are trained specifically to sing either Wagner or Italian opera. But, if that's the case, when did this supposed difference in training start? Certainly the singers of Wagner's time would not have been trained any differently. Lili Lehmann, who sang at the first Bayreuth Festival, was also a great Norma, famously once stating that she'd rather sing all three Brünnhildes in one night rather than sing one Norma. Nor would Frida Leider have been. Is this a new thing? If it is, it might account for the reason so much Wagner singing today is unsatisfactory.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know if I'm understanding you right, but I think what Khaled and ScottK are saying is that singers are trained specifically to sing either Wagner or Italian opera. But, if that's the case, when did this supposed difference in training start? Certainly the singers of Wagner's time would not have been trained any differently. Lili Lehmann, who sang at the first Bayreuth Festival, was also a great Norma, famously once stating that she'd rather sing all three Brünnhildes in one night rather than sing one Norma. Nor would Frida Leider have been. Is this a new thing? If it is, it might account for the reason so much Wagner singing today is unsatisfactory.


For ScottK.....I was not saying anything about how singers are trained. But I have been discussing with Khalid the observation that there is, at times, singing in which there is a chronic swelling of the voice into the note being sung rather than having the voice speak immediately and fully on the pitch and that this affects the legato. When he made an observation about other qualities affecting legato (consonants) in sung german we discussed that pertaining to sung versions by Flagstad and Voigt. I put this "it wasn't me teacher"  in here because I was enjoying this discussion and hope it will resume from that point. 
Khalid, of course, will speak for himself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

khalid said:


> If you read my other replies you would have spared yourself the time to write these questions and essay that you answered yourself in. Being nonsense can work both ways, I don't see you providing sources for each of your claims, but I don't confuse replies with a scientific studies also. The funny thing is the recordings you posted really show that effect, even more so in Elektra's monologue by Nilsson. I did give you examples of Nilsson, Flagstad, and Callas, if you're having hard time noticing it as I and the others do, you can slow it down, or even use some software to visualize the sound wave. About the difference between Wagnerian training and normal training I'll quote you
> As you answered yourself, yes musical notes are the same, however voices aren't just musical instruments, there need to be stylistic trainings also. As for Sutherland's problematic legato, listen to her Casta diva
> 
> 
> ...


The difficulty with this discussion started right off the bat when you began the conversation with a misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of a post of mine.

I detailed in my last post what appears to be the nature of the misrepresentation. You had begun your response to me in post #30 with the words _"Not familiar with Davidsen's repertoire and training but *I think what you're describing is characteristic of Wagnerian style*..."_

I'm telling you here, once again, as plainly as I can, that you are wrong about what I was describing. I was describing the faults of a particular singer, and nothing more. And as to the substance of your argument - which, I repeat, was offered as a misconstrual of what I said about Lise Davidsen - *I do not recognize as legitimate your theory that there is something called "Wagnerian style" which consists of attacking "every note" at less than full volume and swelling into it in order to "minimize vocal fatigue."* (Your words, in case a reminder is needed.) Singers may do this, obviously, along with a lot of other things, good and bad, that do not constitute a "style." They are not trained to sing this way, in Wagner or in any other composer, and Joan Sutherland was not brought up in any such "style." A good singer, in any style, will vary the attack on every note in whatever way makes musical sense. At times that may involve a gentle attack followed by a crescendo; at other times it will mean attacking a note sharply. It depends on the shape of the music and what's being expressed. Every properly trained and musically intelligent singer understands this and proceeds accordingly.

Are you a singer? I was, as are others on this forum. Do you have vocal training? I do, and there are some here more thoroughly trained than I, some of them professional singers (I was semiprofessional in my younger years). On what do you base your understanding of vocal styles in particular, and musical styles in general? What causes you to imagine that Wagner would have recommended that his music be executed in the manner you describe? What do you think he meant when he said the things he did to his singers in order to hear his music sung properly? What do you think Frida Leider meant when she complimented the young Jess Thomas for singing Parsifal in what she called the "Italian manner"?

Tsaraslondon, in post #53, reasonably inquires as to when, historically, the method of singing you describe as "Wagnerian" came into existence. We have several quotes from Wagner himself making very clear that he wanted his interpreters to sing with a firm legato line; his admiration for Mattia Battistini should give us a clue as to what the "Italian manner" meant to him. We have recordings by the superb second-generation "heldentenor" Jacques Urlus, singing in a style that Wagner surely would have loved. Here he is in 1915:






There is nothing sluggish about his attacks, and when he swells a note it's for definite musical effect, not out of sloppy habit or some odd notion that doing so is "Wagnerian style." Note too that his extremely clear enunciation, including strong consonants, doesn't interfere with the strength of his legato.

Similarly fine style is supplied by Leider and Melchior, here recorded in, I believe, 1929:






Crescendos and diminuendos are here employed musically, not habitually or as any sort of stylistic baseline, much less as a result of having voices that don't respond physically.

What is the answer to Tsaraslondon's question? When did this style of singing - which is, quite simply, great singing - give way to something you're calling "Wagnerian style"?


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know if I'm understanding you right, but I think what Khaled and ScottK are saying is that singers are trained specifically to sing either Wagner or Italian opera. But, if that's the case, when did this supposed difference in training start? Certainly the singers of Wagner's time would not have been trained any differently. Lili Lehmann, who sang at the first Bayreuth Festival, was also a great Norma, famously once stating that she'd rather sing all three Brünnhildes in one night rather than sing one Norma. Nor would Frida Leider have been. Is this a new thing? If it is, it might account for the reason so much Wagner singing today is unsatisfactory.


To better understand it you must not think of opera singing as a scientific matter, but a tradition. Since traditions are the result of what is perceived as common sense, they're continuously changing. Each good singer taught their technique to their pupils and as the musical requirements changed, ways were refined and schools diverged. That's why you see some great singers say developing the chest register is good, others say it's bad, some even deny its existence entirely like Simionato. Some say having a wide repertoire is a must, other say it destroys the voice. They all agree on some fundamentals like healthy vocal production, other than that, nothing is certain. I don't think anyone of us have heard to what extent Lehmann's Norma was good, but a better example is Milanov who was one of the most renowned Normas before Callas. Now that we've heard how it must be done by Callas, Milanov's rendition although beautiful at moments, it's quite sloppy next to Callas'. Nilsson made a great Aida but does she compare to Milanov, Callas, or Tebaldi? Callas's Kundry, although musically perfect, it lacks the bite and drama. They all can be great in their own right, but rarely ideal.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

To add to the Davidsen fracas, here is part of a review by an extremely knowledgeable poster on Opera-L on today's _Ariadne auf Naxos_ from the HD performance at the Met with Lise Davidsen in the title role. (I will be seeing the Encore of this production at my local theater this Wednesday). It will be interesting for me to see the difference between her recording here and an actual performance live. She got resounding applause from the grateful audience for her performance today.

"The real star of the performance, as with the performance I heard last Saturday, was Lise Davidsen. There's real star quality there. For those who have not heard her in person, the HD mikes in no way "pumped up" her voice. If anything, the HD did not adequately convey was the impact and presence of her voice heard live. I was again struck by the delicacy of some of her soft singing. Wonderful technique, and such a handsome woman! If she stays the course, I think we have maybe, in the future, the first really great Brunnhilde and Isolde since Nilsson (and Jones, at her best). "


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Are you a singer? I was, as are others on this forum. Do you have vocal training? I do, and there are some here more thoroughly trained than I, some of them professional singers (I was semiprofessional in my younger years)


Well in this case I hate to defend Davidsen, but based on your logic, if you're semiprofessional, she's a fully professional soprano with vocal training so she knows better than you and me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

khalid said:


> Well in this case I hate to defend Davidsen, but based on your logic, if you're semiprofessional, she's a fully professional soprano with vocal training so she knows better than you and me.


Brilliant response. I'm sure she knows better than you.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

khalid said:


> To better understand it you must not think of opera singing as a scientific matter, but a tradition. Since traditions are the result of what is perceived as common sense, they're continuously changing. Each good singer taught their technique to their pupils and as the musical requirements changed, ways were refined and schools diverged. That's why you see some great singers say developing the chest register is good, others say it's bad, some even deny its existence entirely like Simionato. Some say having a wide repertoire is a must, other say it destroys the voice. They all agree on some fundamentals like healthy vocal production, other than that, nothing is certain. I don't think anyone of us have heard to what extent Lehmann's Norma was good, but a better example is Milanov who was one of the most renowned Normas before Callas. Now that we've heard how it must be done by Callas, Milanov's rendition although beautiful at moments, it's quite sloppy next to Callas'. Nilsson made a great Aida but does she compare to Milanov, Callas, or Tebaldi? Callas's Kundry, although musically perfect, it lacks the bite and drama. They all can be great in their own right, but rarely ideal.


This isn't even close to a response to Tsaraslondon's post. Do you actually care to read and absorb what other people say, or do you just pull lectures out of a file?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I want to follow the lead of Ms. Foresti and switch the conversation momentarily back to lise Davidson. The response of the person from operaL led me to look for the first time to the New York Times review of Ariadne. I won’t post it here since anybody who is interested can read it for themselves. Nor do I want anyone here to think that I overvalue it. But the combination of Mr. opera L, the New York Times, and my excitement has led me to think that Ariadne may just be the perfect role for her. Voi lo sapete or not, at her best this lady can bring it big time!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

It's my belief that proper training should give a talented singer the ability to sing anything well. There are clear differences in style from composer to composer, but the training should be the same. How the voice develops from that training determines what repertoire is right.

Beginning softly and swelling a note is an important skill regardless of repertoire, but using a soft straight tone before swelling and adding vibrato is amateur stuff if you ask me. It's something I may have used before I had the skill to build off a fully supported piano, or something I may have done imitating someone I'd heard because I didn't know any better. I agree with Woodduck that singers who use this effect display a lack of musicianship and are lacking in technical proficiency as well.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I want to follow the lead of Ms. Foresti and switch the conversation momentarily back to lise Davidson. The response of the person from operaL led me to look for the first time to the New York Times review of Ariadne. I won't post it here since anybody who is interested can read it for themselves. Nor do I want anyone here to think that I overvalue it. But the combination of Mr. opera L, the New York Times, and my excitement has led me to think that Ariadne may just be the perfect role for her. Voi lo sapete or not, at her best this lady can bring it big time!


And yet my dear Scotty, we have another Opera-Ler to hear from who isn't quite as enthusiastic as the previous critic.

"Davidsen was very, very good, with a most impressive tone, but she did not sound comfortable to me. Yes, Leonie could not find the tune a lot of the time, and the lack of support in the lower regions was a real problem, but she understood two words that Davidsen will have to learn, if she is to be considered a truly great singer - "rapture" and "radiance", which escape her at crucial moments. What I hear in their place is something close to an explosion, which can be exciting but does not serve the moment or the music. I just don't hear her, especially in softer passages, as Max does. The voice is there, but the musical nuance is not, yet."


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Let me throw out part of a review of Davidsen's Beethovn/Verdi/Wagner recital recording from a critic who I have respect for:

_"There is no doubt that this is a large, imposing voice with fearsome top notes but she has some mannerisms which bother me, and some of the things she does are arguably both technically and artistically questionable; nor, strangely, do I actually find myself responding instinctively or viscerally to her intrinsic sound the way I do to my favourite singers. She tends to "pounce and squeeze" notes in an ungainly manner, so a note will be held without vibrato then swelled until the heavy vibrato is brought in at the end, which can become repetitive and wearisome as a habit. "
_
Ralph Moore - musicweb-international

While his has somewhat positive comments about Santuzza, he does take her to task for Leonara and Medea.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Man we’ve covered some territory here. The guy likes her Santuzza?Can’t speak to anything else on the recording but I’m going to take in Nina’s second reviewer as well and say I thought there was a pervasive calm about her Ariadne,even through the unhappiness, which with the quality of the voice was Mezmerizing!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> And yet my dear Scotty, we have another Opera-Ler to hear from who isn't quite as enthusiastic as the previous critic.
> 
> "Davidsen was very, very good, with a most impressive tone, but she did not sound comfortable to me. Yes, Leonie could not find the tune a lot of the time, and the lack of support in the lower regions was a real problem, but she understood two words that Davidsen will have to learn, if she is to be considered a truly great singer - "rapture" and "radiance", which escape her at crucial moments. What I hear in their place is something close to an explosion, which can be exciting but does not serve the moment or the music. I just don't hear her, especially in softer passages, as Max does. The voice is there, but the musical nuance is not, yet."


Did this guy hear her in the house? Because radiant is the word I used for her again and again.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Nope. He heard her on the radio.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I saw her today as Ariadne and although I am not normally a lover of buffo or comedy or lighter operas (I need to beat my breast) and because I am not the type to dissect voices down to the most miniscule study, just observing her physical command and beauty of sound I must say that it will surprise me if she doesn't end up becoming an important addition to the opera world -- particularly on the Wagnerian side.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I saw her today as Ariadne and although I am not normally a lover of buffo or comedy or lighter operas (I need to beat my breast) and because I am not the type to dissect voices down to the most miniscule study, just observing her physical command and beauty of sound I must say that it will surprise me if she doesn't end up becoming an important addition to the opera world -- particularly on the Wagnerian side.


I saw that transmission today, too, and your are very forgiving. She is a beautiful woman and is a attractive stage presence; her high notes and middle register have volume and heft and beauty. But the lower register is all but inaudible - if the phrase dips into a certain point, the volume decreases rapidly - if you're watching, the upper and middle sound out splendidly, but suddenly the sound almost disappears; you see the open mouth but hear nothing, or little if you concentrate. This happens again and again during _Es gibt ein Reich_ and during the scenes with Bacchus. I, like the Komponist, don't like the clownish intrusions and the stupid "comedy." Perhaps I really don't like *Ariadne auf Naxos*.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Post deleted post deleted


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> I saw that transmission today, too, and your are very forgiving. She is a beautiful woman and is a attractive stage presence; her high notes and middle register have volume and heft and beauty. But the lower register is all but inaudible - if the phrase dips into a certain point, the volume decreases rapidly - if you're watching, the upper and middle sound out splendidly, but suddenly the sound almost disappears; you see the open mouth but hear nothing, or little if you concentrate. This happens again and again during _Es gibt ein Reich_ and during the scenes with Bacchus. I, like the Komponist, don't like the clownish intrusions and the stupid "comedy." Perhaps I really don't like *Ariadne auf Naxos*.


It will be interesting to watch her and see if she can develop that lower voice to perfection oor not.


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