# John Adams (and American music in general)



## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

I've just come back from a performance of John Adams' new opera/oratorio "The Gospel According to the Other Mary" here in London. It is very good - both dramatic and lyric and (for the most part) very engaging. I was warned that I should approach John Adams with caution, but after seeing his "Nixon in China" last year and "The Gospel" earlier today, I've grown in my opinion that he is a true composer and one of the great contributors to the muisc of our age.

That got me thinking: a) what do people here think of his music and do you share my impression? and b) what other good American music is the world missing out on?

Leaving the classics like Charles Ives aside, I'm only familiar with Ned Rorem's piano sonatas and a number of songs recently popularized by Susan Graham and Nico Muhly's opera "Two Boys". That's pretty much it! 

What else is out there?

RD


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Brain Ferneyhough(!!!! my favourite American composer), Elliott Carter, Steve Reich, Philip Glass (he _used_ to be good), Morton Feldman, La Monte Young, Ellen Taaffe Zwilich, John Corigliano, Terry Riley.........there are heaps.

I wouldn't say they're all that esoteric though. If you want esoteric, check out on YouTube the "Field Recordings" (I think that's what the concert was called) played by Bang on a Can.


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

No, not looking for esoteric stuff at all! Just ...underappreciated! 

I've never even heard of Brain Ferneyhough! Any suggestions as to what to start with?

RD

P.S. And I'm still curious about what you think of John Adams


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I really like John Adams's treatment of tonality, he has influenced me in my own works that way.






Brian Ferneyhough has written a bunch of string quartets that are well worth a listen. He was a leading exponent in "new complexity," his music characterised by extremely precise markings, very complex rhythms and new instrumental effects using extended techniques. His scores often look very dense on the page but they can often sound remarkably sparse.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

RobertoDevereux said:


> American music in general


it badly lacks depth and spirituality.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

sharik said:


> it badly lacks depth and spirituality.


Could you tell us your reasons of why you think that is so? A judgement like that needs some backup, primary sources, analysis etc.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> why you think that is so?


because in the USA everyone thinks 'what do i get' before doing something instead of just doing it first.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

sharik said:


> because in the USA everyone thinks 'what do i get' before doing something instead of just doing it first.


In the USA, people don't get a great charge out of walking around congratulating themselves on their spiritual depth. Anyway, they're mostly watching TV.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ferneyhough is british.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I hardly think Charles Ives was thinking "what do I get?" while composing.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I like Ives, Carter, Reich, Cage, Partch, Coates.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I hardly think Charles Ives was thinking "what do I get?" while composing.


moreover, Offenbach for instance most likely was thinking exactly like that everytime he wrote an opera, but this had not prevented him from creation of a profound masterpiece _The Tales Of Hoffman_.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As CoaG says, there are oodles. Lots of different styles too, but somehow most of them sound American.

Trying to stay contemporary, among my favorites is *Daniel Asia:*





*Irwin Bazelon:*





*Michael Daugherty:*





*David Diamond* (who does not sound contemporary here):





That's just skimming the first few pages of my collection. I'll leave it at that. And avoid responding to any trollish remarks that may have surfaced, though I am inclined to agree with them as a generalization.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Ferneyhough is british.


He is? Lol....

Milton Babbitt isn't.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

MILTON BABBITT!!!!!! He is great. Continued the tradition of serialism throughout his life and his music always manages to sound fresh and new and not "academic" like much of Boulez's serialist stuff.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Ferneyhough is british.


But he spent some time in San Diego. A great quote:

"Certainly being in California has encouraged a sustained commitment to rethinking the nature, purposes, and relevance of the contemporary arts, specifically music, for a society which by and large seems to manage quite well without them."


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Here are some names post Charles Ives that I've found entertaining, some very giving (highlighted), You'll have to google them or check their *wikipage*:

*Charles Ives* (1874-1954)
John Alden Carpenter (1876-1951)
Carl Ruggles (1876-1971)
Charles Tomlinson Griffes (1884-1920)
Wallingford Riegger (1885-1961)
Ferde Grofé (1892-1972)
*Robert Russell Bennett* (1894-1981)
Walter Piston (1894-1976)
Leo Sowerby (1895-1968)
William Grant Still (1895-1978)
Howard Hanson (1896-1981)
Virgil Thomson (1896-1989)
*Henry Cowell* (1897-1965)
George Gershwin (1898-1937)
Roy Harris (1898-1979)
Randall Thompson (1899-1984)
*George Antheil* (1900-1959)
*Aaron Copland* (1900-1990)
Otto Luening (1900-1996)
Ruth Crawford Seeger (1901-1953)
*Harry Partch* (1901-1974)
Stefan Wolpe (1902-1972)
Miriam Gideon (1906-1996)
Leroy Anderson (1908-1975)
Elliott Carter (1908-2012)
Samuel Barber (1910-1981)
*Alan Hovhaness* (1911-2000)
*John Cage* (1912-1992)
Don Gillis (1912-1978)
*Conlon Nancarrow* (1912-1997)
Norman Dello Joio (1913-2008)
Morton Gould (1913-1996)
Vincent Persichetti (1915-1987)
*Milton Babbitt* (1916-2011)
*Robert Erickson* (1917-1997)
*Lou Harrison* (1917-2003)
Ulysses Kay (1917-1995)
*Leonard Bernstein* (1918-1990)
George Rochberg (1918-2005)
Peter Mennin (1923-1983)
Ned Rorem (born 1923)
*Gunther Schuller* (born 1925)
*Earle Brown* (1926-2002)
*Morton Feldman* (1926-1987)
Carlisle Floyd (born 1926)
*David Tudor* (1926-1996)
*Dominick Argento* (born 1927)
*George Crumb* (born 1929)
*Alvin Lucier* (born 1931)
*Pauline Oliveros* (born 1932)
*Morton Subotnick* (born 1933)
Terry Riley (born 1935)
La Monte Young (born 1935)
Harold Budd (born 1936)
*Steve Reich* (born 1936)
Philip Glass (born 1937)
*William Bolcom* (born 1938)
*Alvin Curran* (born 1938)
John Harbison (born 1938)
*Frederic Rzewski* (born 1938)
*Charles Amirkhanian* (born 1945)
Stephen Paulus (born 1949)
Jennifer Higdon (born 1962)

Most of my favourites are quite modern/contemporary in tone. Not least Charles Ives, who for me was the first American born "classical" composer to develop an truly American idiom! You could consider Scott Joplin but I don't really think of him as a classical composer despite his opera, son of Ives; George Gershwin.

/ptr


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

J.Adams and A.Hovhaness are the best American composers, If we exclude (30s-60s) Jazz composers and movie composers.
Glenn Gould could be a good composer.
Aaron Copland, Ives and Barber are good but not great.
Others are meh or horrible.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

BTW, just struck me, did not consider any Canadian composers if We talk about the whole of N.A., not just US of A, there are a bunch... Have to get back on those!

/ptr


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

Weston said:


> That's just skimming the first few pages of my collection. I'll leave it at that. And avoid responding to any trollish remarks that may have surfaced, though I am inclined to agree with them as a generalization.


Ah, this is great! I really liked Michael Daugherty's concerto. It felt like every time the musical line was about to slide into trite shredding, a new musical idea took over. Really good!

And, yes, good call re: (not) responding to trolling! 

RD


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

ptr said:


> BTW, just struck me, did not consider any Canadian composers if We talk about the whole of N.A., not just US of A, there are a bunch... Have to get back on those!
> 
> /ptr


Yes, that would actually be interesting! After reading your post, I've racked my brain trying to remember even a single one, and I realized I didn't know any!

RD


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm less well versed with, Canadian Composers (hoping that someone from Canada can chime in  ) so the list is quite short.

Here are some who's music I've heard and enjoyed (based on the following wiki lists *A* & *B* and *C*)

André Gagnon
Rachel Laurin
*Alexina Louie*
Oskar Morawetz
Godfrey Ridout
*R. Murray Schafer*
Harry Somers
*Healey Willan*
*Claude Vivier*
*Sophie-Carmen Eckhardt-Gramatté*
*Jan Järvlepp*
*Colin McPhee*
Barbara Pentland

Both lists I've compiled are only fractions of what is available and more reflect what I have come in contact with rather being a definitive quality statement, somewhere to start!

/ptr


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Howard Shore*

Howard (_Lord of the Rings_) Shore is Canadian.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Henry Brant*

I just remembered that Henry Brant, winner of the 2002 Pulitzer Prize, is orginally from Montreal.


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