# Mozart Works Are A Fraud?



## RevAvery (May 13, 2018)

Hi,

I'm brand new as of about 15 minutes ago. I was excited but now ...

I really enjoy Mozart, well, at least until I came here and stumbled upon the Mozart authorship discussion from 2006. Now to find out Mozart didn't write most of what is thought to be Mozart? Or, whatever the rest of the "evidence" indicates?

I don't know enough about all this to even begin to discuss it. Ask me about the Allman Brothers, I'm your man. 

It's like telling a kid there's no Santa. Was I happier in my ignorace? Hmm. 

So ... when I was in Salzburg was I really in Mozart's home? Did he really compose on the piano I took a picture of? Did he really write the letters I saw?

I know I'm ignorant, unlearned, and not scholarly. But maybe ignorance in a case like this truly is bliss?

I don't know. But I enjoyed "Mozart" a little more before I joined than I do now.

This probably sounds worse than I intend. Just had to vent some, I guess


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

You can safely skip ahead to some other discussion. There is no good reason to doubt Mozart's authorship of the vast majority of the works in the Koechel catalogue. It's like that theory from a few years ago when some guy decided Bach's wife composed the cello suites and the first prelude of the WTC - complete crap "supported" by the fact that a few works were misattributed to the composer in the past. Misattributions happen, but not on this scale.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The "theory" proposed by Robert Newman has been completely debunked, as his provided "evidence". He does not have much of a scholarly education (won´t even discuss it), or real insight. The idea is a folly.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

RevAvery said:


> I really enjoy Mozart, well, at least until I came here and stumbled upon the Mozart authorship discussion from 2006. Now to find out Mozart didn't write most of what is thought to be Mozart? Or, whatever the rest of the "evidence" indicates?


Obviously you didn't stumble upon those parts of the discussion that clearly showed that this claim is bo!!ocks...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Since I read about Mozart somewhere here on the forum, all I can think of while listening to his music is coprolalia and flatulence. And did you know that Albert Einstein stole the theory of relativity from his wife?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Jacck said:


> Since I read about Mozart somewhere here on the forum, all I can think of while listening to his music is coprolalia and flatulence. And did you know that Albert Einstein stole the theory of relativity from his wife?


Surely he wasn't related to his wife?


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

Hey, there's a "Flat Earth Society" for any human endeavour and any branch of scientific and historical knowledge - Fake news is everywhere. 

The authenticity issue is a lot worse when it comes to Joseph Haydn - there are many, many works attributed to Haydn which scholars say are "spurious".


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> Surely he wasn't related to his wife?


Why not? Rachmaninoff was related to his wife .


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Of course Mozart's work are frauds. They were all composed by Beethoven.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

RevAvery said:


> I don't know enough about all this to even begin to discuss it. Ask me about the Allman Brothers, I'm your man.


Do we have certain proof that Duane and Gregg are brothers? And in any case: why call an entire band the Allman Brothers when only two of them are related?


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> Do we have certain proof that Duane and Gregg are brothers? And in any case: why call an entire band the Allman Brothers when only two of them are related?


Indeed! And why would a band call themselves Electric Light Orchestra when there are only enough members to play chamber music?


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## Metairie Road (Apr 30, 2014)

> I know I'm ignorant, unlearned, and not scholarly


Welcome to the club RevAvery

Don't worry about being ignorant. Just fake it like the rest of us.

Best wishes
Metairie Road


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> The "theory" proposed by Robert Newman has been completely debunked, as his provided "evidence". He does not have much of a scholarly education (won´t even discuss it), or real insight. The idea is a folly.


LOL! I remember tangling with that idiot back in 90's at the website Classical Insights (RIP). That idiot was trying to convince us that Mozart paid for or ripped off many of his pieces from other composers.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Vasks said:


> LOL! I remember tangling with that idiot back in 90's at the website Classical Insights (RIP). That idiot was trying to convince us that Mozart paid for or ripped off many of his pieces from other composers.


That won't work as a criticism because he would still seem to have had exceptionally good taste.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Most of Mozart's works were in fact composed by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Or at least they will be......


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> The "theory" proposed by Robert Newman has been completely debunked, as his provided "evidence". He does not have much of a scholarly education (won´t even discuss it), or real insight. The idea is a folly.


"Me thinks he doth protest too much." ~ Edward de Vere


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

If they weren't composed by Mozart, they were composed by another guy called Mozart. Shakespeare has the same problem..(however, it woz me wot wrote all _his_ plays).


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It is a not unreasonable supposition that a certain percentage of his juvenilia -- most of which isn't worth more than one listen anyway--was written by, or with the help of, his father, who sensed his gifts and profited greatly by shepherding a prodigy around Germany.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

MarkW said:


> It is a not unreasonable supposition that a certain percentage of his juvenilia -- most of which isn't worth more than one listen anyway--was written by, or with the help of, his father, who sensed his gifts and profited greatly by shepherding a prodigy around Germany.


Those are not considered among his finest works though. What about when Leopold was no longer around? I like the works attributed to the fellow Mozart; if he wasn't the composer, but someone else then I like _his_ works.

However, I really don't think we are dealing with an 18th century Milli Vanilli. I want this topic to go away because it is idiotic.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There are people who cannot think of anything to say but want a headline so they make up bunkem theories. Schaeffer got hold of some of them in the idiotic nonsense in Amadeus.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

What is ope? .


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Room2201974 said:


> "Me thinks he doth protest too much." ~ Edward de Vere


Nice quote, since it can be tried against more or less every line of argument that spans a couple of sentences or more.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MarkW said:


> It is a not unreasonable supposition that a certain percentage of his juvenilia -- most of which isn't worth more than one listen anyway--was written by, or with the help of, his father, who sensed his gifts and profited greatly by shepherding a prodigy around Germany.


Leave it to the scholars - think about how many works falsely attributed to Mozart they have turfed out of the catalogue.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Quite a few works are rearranged by other composers or composed variations on works such as Rachmaninov Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.


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## RevAvery (May 13, 2018)

Well, my faith is restored  Thank you so much for all the wonderful responses. I truly do appreciate it.

I didn't want to think that what was talked about was factual. It just didn't seem to me to add up. Unless, of course, there are a lot of very smart people dumber than I am on all of this. 

The trip to Salzburg was awesome. To see where Mozart lived and to see his personal affects was beyond my wildest imaginations. I took the picture of his piano before I realized I wasn't supposed to be taking pictures. The attendant was very gracious. To see the instruments that he played was amazing. It was all a dream come true. 

So, thank you for all the responses. I look forward to being here ... and continued listening to my favorite composer, Mozart. 

Warren


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

joen_cph said:


> Nice quote, since it can be tried against more or less every line of argument that spans a couple of sentences or more.


It's also garbage. It's from Hamlet and the actual quote is " The lady doth protest too much, methinks."


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

The craziest thing about that theory to me was the idea that all of these separate people accidentally composed music with the exact same voice and personality. I'm not sure it's possible for even the greatest of composers to eradicate, even if purposely, their distinct sound from their compositions. The operas constantly remind you of the piano concertos which constantly remind you of the chamber music and so on. The best cure for any doubts you have would be to just continue enjoying Mozart until it becomes obvious that it's all written by one guy, because it is.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I must confess, I wrote them using my timeshare Time Machine

Now can you give me the Royalties............


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

All this reminds me of Mamoru Samuragochi, the “Japanese Beethoven.” He lost his hearing at 35 but continued to compose; his greatest accomplishment was his “Hiroshima” Symphony No. 1 written in 2003, which was a major hit in Japan and sold more than 100,000 copies. Other highly regarded works followed.

However…it turned out that he was not deaf at all. And worse, he had not written that music but had paid a fellow named Takashi Niigaki to ghost-write his compositions for eighteen years.

His publisher, Nippon Columbia, was rather upset. To put it mildly.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Mozart works are a fraud?

Ummmm... no.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

How do we know ANY composer wrote what we think he wrote? Nobody was around to take pictures or hide a camera in the room, so how we know Bach wrote the Brandenburg Concerti?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ Yeah, I wrote those too

More Royalties


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ Yeah, I wrote those too
> 
> More Royalties


Sorry but I think the copyright might have expired on that.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Gordontrek said:


> How do we know ANY composer wrote what we think he wrote? Nobody was around to take pictures or hide a camera in the room, so how we know Bach wrote the Brandenburg Concerti?


Incredibly thorough scholarship of thousands of academics over the centuries - painstaking assessment of contemporary and later documentary evidence, autograph scores, handwriting analysis by experts and much much more.

It is amazing what we know - we even know where Constanze bought the paper Mozart wrote many of this works on and how much she paid.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Incredibly thorough scholarship of thousands of academics over the centuries - painstaking assessment of contemporary and later documentary evidence, autograph scores, handwriting analysis by experts and much much more.
> 
> It is amazing what we know - we even know where Constanze bought the paper Mozart wrote many of this works on and how much she paid.


Ah but where did she buy the Ink?


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Wamy had a team of ghost writers, but he did compose a lot of his early works when he was about three years old but he was probably the first true entrepreneur and was responsible for feeding a lot of families.


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## RevAvery (May 13, 2018)

*Handwriting Analysis*



stomanek said:


> Incredibly thorough scholarship of thousands of academics over the centuries - painstaking assessment of contemporary and later documentary evidence, autograph scores, handwriting analysis by experts and much much more.
> 
> It is amazing what we know - we even know where Constanze bought the paper Mozart wrote many of this works on and how much she paid.


That's a great point: "handwriting analysis by experts." Never thought of that. I don't know much about how manuscripts are authenticated. Up until my first post, I had just "assumed" everything was firmly settled --- as much as possible, that is.

I'm glad to be here and hope to learn more that will add to my listening enjoyment -- especially of Mozart.

Warren


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I thought it was common knowledge that Mozart never wrote any of his works.
They were in fact written by aliens, the original manuscripts were found by the Apollo 11 astronauts on the moon. They are now stored in Area 51, with Elvis.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Haydn man said:


> I thought it was common knowledge that Mozart never wrote any of his works.
> They were in fact written by aliens, the original manuscripts were found by the Apollo 11 astronauts on the moon. They are now stored in Area 51, with Elvis.


Haydn's works are in there too.


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