# Händel: Just how highly do you estimate him?



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Since we're on this theme. I recall reading a quote by a well-known mid-20th century conductor (whose name I ironically forget) who considered Händel to be slight and shallow stuff (as compared to Bach) and couldn't be bothered with him. Reminds me in certain ways of the Mozart/Haydn comparisons. 

I do often get the feeling that Händel's music can feel as though it's on autopilot—a very high level of autopilot but still. Telemann's Oboe concerti are IMHO far superior to Händel's. Händel's operas can sound like they were all cut from the same cookie cutter.

His organ concerti bore me but I do love his op.3 & 6 Concerti. I see his Messiah is a sort of miracle where all that's best about his music, his innate genius, consistently appears in one work from beginning to end.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

To each his own - he clearly has a large fan base. I have zero interest in him.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Clearly a fine composer in a repertoire I don’t care for.


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Depending on the day, either my favorite composer or at least top 3. I'm in good company, Handel might have been Beethoven's favorite composer too:

Beethoven's admiration of Handel

Handel regarded himself as primarily a composer of opera for most of his productive career - and most of Handel's greatest musical achievements were his operas. Baroque opera in general fell out of favor with the disappearance of castrati and the change in tastes away from Baroque-style opera conventions. As a result, many people seem to judge Handel from knowledge of what I would regard as his lesser works (Messiah excepted). Fortunately, the Handel operas seem to be making quite a comeback now in both recordings and performance with the emergence of a number of excellent counter-tenors that can take on these former castrati roles.


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## sstucky (Apr 4, 2020)

Absolutely superb—second only to JSB. One of the great geniuses of Western music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

There was a thread on this topic recently (it's an old thread, but it got revived recently):
Bach vs Händel - I just don't get it


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I buy a lot of fountain pens, CDs, books, speakers and I hate splitting the budget. I find myself do not like buying CDs at all, when I look at my collection I know I am a sinful man for wasting so much on plastic discs, however everytime when listen up, I feel like every CD worth the whole collection. So, as long as I am willing to buy his CD, it explains all. I never regret buying his music and will continue to buy.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

For my money Handel's up there in the top echelon - positively one of THE greatest tunesmiths ever, and there's so much more to his output in addition to that.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I only really care for a few of his compositions, so overall he doesn't rate very highly with me as he only gets an occasional listen, but just because he doesn't resonate with me doesn't mean he doesn't resonate with others greatly.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I highly esteem Handel for his Messiah oratorio. Otherwise I don't have a lot of use for him. However, he does have a lot of great music, including Chandos Anthems, and some good operas. But if I am going to the desert island I probably only take Messiah (about 6 sets) and the Chandos Anthems.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Anyone who reckons Handel’s music is slight and shallow obviously doesn’t know anything about music and has got a tin ear. Reminds me of Thomas Beechams definition of a musicologist as someone who can read music but cannot hear it


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Handel is in my top 10. I love his operas/oratorios/orchestral works. I'll also put in a plug for his solo keyboard suites that I always find compelling.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

He's currently in my top 30. I like his music and think he's a fine composer, certainly one of my current favorites in the Baroque period. That said, there's much by him for me to explore yet.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

I really rate the Op 6 Concerti Grossi. No 10 in D minor is an out and out masterpiece.

Recently acquired Pinnock's set of Handel orchestral works with the English Concert for a good price on Presto, and intend to explore him more thoroughly. Hope Pinnock is a reasonable guide.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I visit Handel's _Messiah_ faithfully once or twice each year, and have done so for decades. That visit takes place during the Christmas and/or Easter season. I have dozens of recordings of the work, and a copy of the score. I enjoy reading through the score while listening to the music.

I'll admit that I don't listen to Handel's music as worshipfully as I do to that of J.S. Bach, but I honestly say that I generally enjoy greatly any Handel music I happen to hear, and on occasion will arm my listening sessions with the composer's solo keyboard music, chamber music, one of the orchestral pieces, or an opera here and there. The man was definitely one of the greats. I simply prefer Bach, in whom I hear (subjectively, I suspect) a greater philosophical depth and resonance, which is important to me as an appreciator of music. But with Handel I hear some of the most highly crafted music out there -- very skillfully composed stuff; and skillfully composed music is also important to me.

There remains a lot to enjoy with Handel, and I'm happy to have a "pretty good" selection of the man's music in my collection, including the Brilliant Classics box set:















If there are still pieces in that box set I haven't heard, I should get to it immediately, which is something likely more valuable to my consciousness than writing commentary about my opinion on Handel.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Handel is in my top 15. I like his oratorios-- love some of them-- and his keyboard suites. He is a firm No. 2 Baroque composer, behind only JS Bach.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

A small amount of his output is my favorite composer of all time. For every outstandingly melodic aria, there are 20 totally forgettable ones. The kicker for me is that contained (and being wasted) within even those boring arias are wonderfully unique instrumental motifs; people go on about his writing for voice, but I loved his style of orchestral writing most of all. When I do like his writing for voice, it's almost always the big, extravagant choruses. His more pared down style in the operas is enjoyable to me, but it becomes too simple to remain engaging. The texture of the music feels too thin, and I've never liked the way Handel elaborates on vocal melodies enough for that to make up the difference. When he dresses up his same material with larger scale ornaments and pomp, as when he transformed an italian duet into We Like Sheep, he becomes infinitely more interesting. I wish I could be the "oh but you have to listen to the operas!" guy, but I'm not. I don't think it's a coincidence that his most popular piece is largely chorus after chorus. I prefer him to Bach in terms of personality, but not because I can get through his works start to finish anywhere near as easily.

Also, finding out about the plagiarism thing broke my heart for a couple of days.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Eclectic Al said:


> I really rate the Op 6 Concerti Grossi. No 10 in D minor is an out and out masterpiece.
> 
> Recently acquired Pinnock's set of Handel orchestral works with the English Concert for a good price on Presto, and intend to explore him more thoroughly. Hope Pinnock is a reasonable guide.


I have Corelli's Op 6 and Handel's Messiah by Pinnock, and I think Pinnock is too "stately" an interpreter, as opposed to energetic, if that makes sense.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

ORigel said:


> I have Corelli's Op 6 and Handel's Messiah by Pinnock, and I think Pinnock is too "stately" an interpreter, as opposed to energetic, if that makes sense.


I'll find out. I guess.

For Handel's Op 6 I have lived and breathe the ASMF set led by Iona Brown, and love them.
I have only listened to Pinnock's No 10 from that set so far - and it's not in the Brown league for my taste.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I have a fair-sized Handel selection which takes in every genre apart from opera. I do enjoy the shorter choral works such as the anthems, canticles and odes and (most of) the orchestral music. On the debit side I have a box set of the chamber music but it does little for me, and I sometimes find myself looking at my watch whenever I've listened to a lengthy oratorio such as _Theodora_.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

He's in the top 10 -- No. 7 in my survey ahead of Schubert. He was the greatest composer of oratorios; his "Messiah" is the most performed piece of classical music in history. More people have performed it and sung at least sections of it than any other classical music composition. Its "Hallelujah" chorus is known by virtually everyone that knows anything about music.

His oratorio "Israel In Egypt" is the pinnacle story of Passover. His Water Music and Royal Fireworks Music are evergreen, recorded often and still played in concert. In its day the Fireworks music attracted every woodwind player in London to its performance at the London Bridge.

I can't say the rest of his output is as great but there aren't many composers in history who are the best in one genre like he is in oratorio. Many have one great hit and some other goods. He has lots of hits, his staying power is just as great today as a century ago, and he wrote the most well-known chorus in world history and a piece of music that is still played all over the world at Christmas.

What other composer can this be said about?


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

My CM roots are in the Baroque and I listen to music from this period about one-fourth of the time. Händel is second only to Bach among my favorite Baroque composers, with Telemann a little behind Händel. A good measure of my esteem for Händel is my pretty large CD collection of his works and my interest in multiple recordings of my favorites, which are the Opus 6 concerti grossi, the organ concerti, the Water Music and Music for the Royal Fireworks, and the recorder sonatas (these last being among my favorite music to perform). As I’ve said in other threads, Händel for me occupies an essential space in Baroque music. His natural pathos and insouciance set his music apart from the religious and usually serious Bach and from Telemann, whose orderly and mannered style prefigured the Classical composers (IMO).


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Love him. I've just been getting into Handel recently, but I find most of what I've heard of his music to be extremely high quality, especially the choral/vocal music, but also concertos, chamber music, keyboard music etc. etc.


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## Mozart123 (Oct 8, 2020)

I can't really comment on Handel's virtuosity since I have only listened to a few works of his. However, I recently came across a CD of harp concertos in my parents' collection, of which Handel's harp concerto op. 4 no. 6 appears. Wow, words can't describe how good it is. I've had it on repeat the past day.















I found this excellent recording on youtube of the first movement:


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mozart123 said:


> I can't really comment on Handel's virtuosity since I have only listened to a few works of his. However, I recently came across a CD of harp concertos in my parents' collection, of which Handel's harp concerto op. 4 no. 6 appears. Wow, words can't describe how good it is. I've had it on repeat the past day.
> View attachment 144299
> 
> View attachment 144300
> ...


Wow, sounds excellent. I think I'll have to track down this Decca 2cd. Thanks for sharing.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I personally don't esteem any Baroque composer besides Bach terribly highly. Along with Corelli's concerti grossi Handel's set of 12 is probably my favorite music from the period outside of JSB. I can always turn to these wonderful works for uplifting, life-enhancing beauty. The organ concerti, keyboard suites, and choral works like the Ode for St. Cecilia's Day and Dixit Dominus are nice to hear but just lacking depth to reward repeated listening IMO. Messiah is fun to listen to annually but I sometimes don't find it maintaining my interest. I haven't explored much of his slightly more obscure music like the operas and other oratorios (besides Solomon which I might actually like more than Messiah).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


>


Hey Hammered, do you notice how Händel borrows a theme straight from Telemann's Oboe Concerto (not sure which one at the moment) at the 10 minute mark? The baroque version of sampling.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> Love him. I've just been getting into Handel recently, but I find most of what I've heard of his music to be extremely high quality, especially the choral/vocal music, but also concertos, chamber music, keyboard music etc. etc.


Except for the just getting in to bit , +1


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Love Handel...........he's a top 10 for me.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Handel is in the class of pleasant but ultimately uninteresting baroque composers for me, including Vivaldi, Telemann and to a lesser extend Corelli and Albinoni. A 'best of' is pleasant and occasionally arresting, however recordings on entire sets I find monotonous. The Messiah is awefully anachronistic and mannered to my sensibilities, and as such fails to emotionally resonate in genuine fashion.


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## Perfectfullmoon (Jul 16, 2020)

I never get tired of Handel's keyboard suites and organ concertos. His music tongue is fresh and joyful.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

RogerWaters said:


> Handel is in the class of pleasant but ultimately uninteresting baroque composers for me, including Vivaldi, Telemann and to a lesser extend Corelli and Albinoni. A 'best of' is pleasant and occasionally arresting, however recordings on entire sets I find monotonous. The Messiah is awefully anachronistic and mannered to my sensibilities, and as such fails to emotionally resonate in genuine fashion.


You don't thing in saying that you are revealing your own lack of ability to appreciate the genius Beethoven reckoned was the greatest of all. Always amuses me when people make these trite little statements about the man who wrote those incredible operas and mighty oratorios.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> You don't thing in saying that you are revealing your own lack of ability to appreciate the genius Beethoven reckoned was the greatest of all. Always amuses me when people make these trite little statements about the man who wrote those incredible operas and mighty oratorios.


Once again, you reveal a lack of ability to understand that it is perfectly fine for others to not appreciate music that you personally love. Also, the Beethoven name-dropping means nothing.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> Once again, you reveal a lack of ability to understand that it is perfectly fine for others to not appreciate music that you personally love. Also, the Beethoven name-dropping means nothing.


You might take your own advice sometimes then in some of the replies you make, do you not think? And I would have thought that Beethoven is as good a name as any to drop. Or don't you rate him either?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> You might take your own advice sometimes then in some of the replies you make, do you not think? And I would have thought that Beethoven is as good a name as any to drop. Or don't you rate him either?


I rate Beethoven highly as a composer. His opinion of other composers is not his expertise.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I rate Beethoven highly as a composer. His opinion of other composers is not his expertise.


Really? He may just have known a bit more than we do? Just like a brain surgeon might know a bit more about brain surgery?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Really? He may just have known a bit more than we do? Just like a brain surgeon might know a bit more about brain surgery?


A composer is an unreliable source of the worth of other composers. I rate Handel highly because of my opinion of his music; Beethoven's opinion is irrelevant.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Always amuses me when people make these trite little statements about the man who wrote those incredible operas and mighty oratorios.


Why should anyone be persuaded by this kind of statement of they don't find the operas incredible and the oratorios mighty in the first place?! 

You seem to simply assume the music you like is inherently great. That seems to be your axiom, if you will.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> A composer is an unreliable source of the worth of other composers. I rate Handel highly because of my opinion of his music; Beethoven's opinion is irrelevant.


Why is another composer an unreliable source? Just because you say so?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

RogerWaters said:


> Why should anyone be persuaded by this kind of statement of they don't find the operas incredible and the oratorios mighty in the first place?!
> 
> You seem to simply assume the music you like is inherently great. That seems to be your axiom, if you will.


You seem to think that the music you don't like is inherently trite. That appears to be your axiom Doesn't occur to you there might be something wrong with your assessment?


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## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

Significantly less highly than Bach in most departments. More highly than Vivaldi or Rameau, but not massively or consistently so. Much more highly than Telemann.

So far as vocal music is concerned, I'm not at all sure that Bach does top Handel. I greatly admire both, but comparisons are difficult given the very different contexts for their musical production. Difficult and imho unnecessary. I will claim that Handel was one of the greatest Baroque composers for the human voice, which given the very fierce competition (and not just from Bach and other well-known names) is saying a good deal.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I am not sure that I understand this trend of "how highly do you estimate" composers X, Y and Z. Are we trying to vote someone off the island? (Elimination shows like "Survivor" have ruined so many things by making them all into competitions of nebulous value.)


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

JAS said:


> I am not sure that I understand this trend of "how highly do you estimate" composers X, Y and Z. Are we trying to vote someone off the island? (Elimination shows like "Survivor" have ruined so many things by making them all into competitions of nebulous value.)


I find these threads to be some of the nicest so far. An affirmation of relatively non-controversial, Top-10-frequenting composers.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

> The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius.





> Public opinion, an attempt to organize the ignorance of the community, and to elevate it to the dignity of physical force.





> Society often forgives the criminal, it never forgives the dreamer.





> Music is the art, which most completely realizes the artistic idea and is the condition to which all the other arts are constantly apsiring.





> Music is the perfect type of art





> If one plays good music, people do not listen, if one plays bad music, people do not talk.


Oscar Wilde

Everytime I want to speak something, Oscar Wilde always says it first.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

re: Handel

Over the years, I've learned to love _Messiah_, maybe because it is such a popular work that every major conductor has tried his hand at doing (I like Bernstein and Ormandy, as un-HIP as they may be). I saw a PBS documentary on _Messiah_ last Christmas season that placed it in context regarding the composer, librettist, soloists, and benefactors; how proceeds were used to release people from debtor's prison, as an expression of salvation being given freely. If that in and of itself doesn't give you a reason to make the effort, I don't know what else to say.

Apart from that, there's the _Water Suite_ and _Fireworks_. I have a few other things by Handel, some concertos, and some very pleasant excepts from operas by Fritz Wunderlich; but by-and-large have't taken much further than that.

Bach is really the only Baroque composer who's entire oeuvre of interest to me. For Handel and Vivaldi I'm content to stay with the works that remain central to the standard classical music repertoire. You could also through in a sprinkling or "dash" of Telemann and Corelli to that mix.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I can't stand Messiah but I do like his keyboard music, concerti grossi, Water Music, Music for the Royal Fireworks.
All in all, he didn't write enough music I love to consider him very highly.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

DavidA said:


> You might take your own advice sometimes then in some of the replies you make, do you not think? And I would have thought that Beethoven is as good a name as any to drop. Or don't you rate him either?


Quick, give me the names of composers Beethoven (or other composers) ranked highly. I need to adjust my favourite composers list.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Why is another composer an unreliable source? Just because you say so?


Hmm so your argument goes like this: 
Beethoven esteemed Handel. Since Beethoven was a great composer, everyone should esteem Handel.

Not stop for a moment and think just what could possibly be wrong with that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Hmm so your argument goes like this:
> Beethoven esteemed Handel. *Since Beethoven was a great composer, everyone should esteem Handel.*
> 
> Not stop for a moment and think just what could possibly be wrong with that.


Just that you can't read. I never said that! :lol:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Just that you can't read. I never said that! :lol:


You implied it. Now go back and read your posts again to see why.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You implied it. Now go back and read your posts again to see why.


I did not imply it at all. Please read my posts and see why. Please learn to read what is said and not what you read into things.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

^^^ OK then. If you say so.



DavidA said:


> You don't thing in saying that you are revealing your own lack of ability to appreciate the genius Beethoven reckoned was the greatest of all. Always amuses me when people make these trite little statements about the man who wrote those incredible operas and mighty oratorios.





DavidA said:


> You might take your own advice sometimes then in some of the replies you make, do you not think? And I would have thought that Beethoven is as good a name as any to drop. Or don't you rate him either?





DavidA said:


> Really? He may just have known a bit more than we do? Just like a brain surgeon might know a bit more about brain surgery?





DavidA said:


> Why is another composer an unreliable source? Just because you say so?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> ^^^ OK then. If you say so.


Absolutely. You have just proved my point. Just read not imagine! You go to so much trouble to prove nothing! :lol:


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The thread is about Handel - not other members. Please refrain from personal comments.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

RogerWaters said:


> The Messiah is awefully anachronistic and mannered to my sensibilities, and as such fails to emotionally resonate in genuine fashion.


What do you mean with anachronistic? Messiah and a few other Handel works are among the earliest pieces of music that never left the repertoire since their premieres. That is, they somehow appealed to very diverse audiences through more than 250 years. I could understand finding Messiah overfamiliar or trite but it mostly seems the opposite of mannered, rather a far more naturally appealing sacred work than almost anything by Bach (maybe some of the Xmas oratorio excepted). The Bach Passions are great but they seem far more "anachronistic" to me than Messiah.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> What do you mean with anachronistic? Messiah and a few other Handel works are among the earliest pieces of music that never left the repertoire since their premieres. That is, they somehow appealed to very diverse audiences through more than 250 years. I could understand finding Messiah overfamiliar or trite but it mostly seems the opposite of mannered, rather a far more naturally appealing sacred work than almost anything by Bach (maybe some of the Xmas oratorio excepted). The Bach Passions are great but they seem far more "anachronistic" to me than Messiah.


"Anachronistic" probably just means "it's religious music and doesn't reflect my agnosticism/atheism".


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Far from anachronistic, Messiah is relevant for all times.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

dissident said:


> "Anachronistic" probably just means "it's religious music and doesn't reflect my agnosticism/atheism".


Kreisler jr has moderated his negative view on Bach lately. (Com'on, give him some credit.)


Kreisler jr said:


> they were glorified exercises, thus Clavierübung.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I could understand finding Messiah overfamiliar or trite but it mostly seems the opposite of mannered, rather a far more naturally appealing sacred work than almost anything by Bach (maybe some of the Xmas oratorio excepted). The Bach Passions are great but they seem far more *"anachronistic"* to me than Messiah.


"...one of the complaints about Bach was that his cantatas were too operatic. More than any other composer he introduced the Italian opera style into church music, something his predecessor Johann Kuhnau had always resisted." <Bach Cantatas Website: "Bach and Opera">

I think people tend to overlook the fact Bach was interested in bringing operatic elements into other types of music, and was pretty forward-looking in this regard - the development of the "Neapolitan mass", the "stilus ecclesiasticus mixtus" or mixed church style, which combined traditional contrapuntal choruses with coloratura solo arias and ensembles, which theoreticians such as J.J. Fux and M. Spiess opposed.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Kreisler jr has moderated his negative view on Bach lately. (Com'on, give him some credit.)


If you keep blatantly lying in that way about me, I will complain to the mods. I never had a negative view on Bach. ("Übung" just means exercise, trust a native speaker or look it up yourself, I don't see why it is negative to explain what a piece is explictly called!)
I have a negative view on a certain kind of narrowminded Bach worshipper and an even more negative one of some even narrower friends of boring 18th Salzburg church music.

You are also again unable to stick to the topic of a thread and show your historic misunderstanding. That some contemporary Lutherans found Bach's church music too operatic does not mean anything. Anyone who has heard real baroque opera seria, Italian sacred oratorios, Handel's English oratorios and Bach cantatas realizes that the latter are clearly the furthest away from opera. 
And it is utterly irrelevant for the later reception anyway. As opera seria faded in the mid-late 18th century, this comparison of opera with sacred music became moot for later reception of Bach or Handel.

Some of Handel's oratorios remained popular because they were "modern" compared with opera seria or liturgical church music and better compatible with the changed tastes of the later 18th and early 19th century.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Some of Handel's oratorios remained popular because they were "modern" compared with opera seria or liturgical church music and better compatible with the changed tastes of the later 18th and early 19th century.


If we see the "panis vivus" from Mozart litaniae K.243 as a continuation/extension of the expression of Handel's "every valley shall be exhalted", 
and the "salus infirmorum" from Mozart litaniae K.195 as a continuation/extension of the expression of Handel's "surely he hath borne our griefs" ...



Kreisler jr said:


> I have a negative view on a certain kind of narrowminded Bach worshipper and an even more negative one of some even narrower friends of boring 18th Salzburg church music.


What's your excuse for not appreciating 18th century Salzburg church music in the context of the reasoning in your post? The Mozart is even more "operatic" than the Handel, and totally compatible with late 18th century tastes.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> If you keep blatantly lying in that way about me, I will complain to the mods. I never had a negative view on Bach. ("Übung" just means exercise, trust a native speaker or look it up yourself, I don't see why it is negative to explain what a piece is explictly called!)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but from seeing your comparisons of Bach to Czerny, (which shocked me), I thought you had a very lowly view of Bach. For instance;
SanAntone: "Considering that every pianist studies the Well-Tempered Clavier, and every cellist studies the cello suites, as is the case for violinists with the sonatas and partitas".
Kreisler jr: "With such an argument Czerny is far more influential than given credit for because he is also extremely important for pianists."

By "they", you meant "most of Bach's keyboard music", not just Clavierübung.
Kreisler jr: "Most of bachs keyboard music was not public but private music for players and conoisseur friends. (It is again an exaggeration but they were glorified exercises, thus Clavierübung.)"



Kreisler jr said:


> rather a far more naturally appealing sacred work than almost anything by Bach


I also think the wide-spread view that "Bach is old-fashioned compared to Handel" is one of the modern-day stereotypes about his work. Church composers may look "old-fashioned" on the surface from today's (prejudiced) viewpoint, but in terms of influence and impact on the later generations, they're immensely significant, with harmonic expressiveness.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I have a negative view on a certain kind of narrowminded Bach worshipper and an even more negative one of some even narrower friends of boring 18th Salzburg church music.
> Some of Handel's oratorios remained popular because they were "modern" compared with opera seria or liturgical church music and better compatible with the changed tastes of the later 18th and early 19th century.


Why was Vivaldi forgotten for so long then?
And the same reasoning in your post can be applied to Mozart's requiem, for instance?

"Wagner's life-long admiration included an encounter in the mid-to late 1820s that 'formed the starting point of my enthusiastic absorption in the works of that master [Mozart]' and contemplations of it late in life as well; Anton Rubinstein, Mahler Richard Strauss, Stanford and Rimsky-Korsakov all conducted it, Rimsky-Korsakov also quoting extensively from the Introit in the final section of Mozart and Salieri. Described in 1902 as one of Mozart's works that 'speaks persuadingly to every generation . . . [through which] Mozart's influence still persists and must be reckoned with as a factor in the complexus of forces which is moulding the music of the new century', it had similar exposure among twentieth century composers. Bartok used examples from the Requiem in his teaching; Szymanowski wrote of its 'divine grief', the most powerful 'eruption' of the 'grim, powerful call from a world beyond ours' in Mozart's late music; Janecek conducted a highly successful performance of it in Brno in the late 1870s and another in the memory of Smetana in Prague in 1916; the fifteen-year-old Walton sang a solo part in a performance at Christ Church, Oxford, in December 1917; Britten considered it an important historical precedent for the modern-day composer in writing his own War Requiem (1961-2), subsequently reacting profoundly to conducting Mozart's work (1971)."
< Mozart's Requiem: Reception, Work, Completion / Simon P. Keefe / P. 6 >


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Händel is my favourite composer, as is baroque era music in general. 

I find it disappointing but revealing just what a limited appreciation many members have of his music, referring incessantly as they do to the Messiah and the Water Music - excellent though both are. As has been stated, Händel was first and foremost a composer of Opera and then Oratorio (essentially unstaged opera with chorus added). His instrumental music was a secondary consideration and often conceived as interludes to his Oratorios. Even then though, I see his opus 3 and 6 easily on a par with Bach's BBCs. His opera arias far exceeds B's Cantatas for listenability and enjoyment to my ears, while a number of his Oratorios are every bit as good as Bach's MP/JP/Mass in Bm.

I think people need to explore his opera/oratoria output in much more depth before rushing to conclusions that, to my mind, fail to give credit where credit is due and appreciate what a truly magnificent composer he was. Of course, if you do not like Opera Seria or de capo arias then this could be a problem.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Some of Handel's oratorios remained popular because they were "modern" compared with opera seria or liturgical church music and better compatible with the changed tastes of the later 18th and early 19th century.





Kreisler jr said:


> Although one not directly musical reason might simply have been that some of the oratorios survived more easily because of the well known biblical subjects when tastes in Opera seria had changed. They also travelled more easily to other Protestant regions and also Catholic Austria than real church music would have.


Handel was considered more "modern" than Mozart in the late 18th century?
I would rather believe the flat earth theory.

http://www.choirs.org.uk/prognotes/Mozart Cornonation Mass.htm
"Even as early as the 19th Century the mass was already popularly referred to as the "Coronation Mass". The nickname grew out of the misguided belief that Mozart had written the mass for Salzburg's annual celebration of the anniversary of the crowning of the Shrine of the Virgin. The more likely explanation is that it was one of the works that was performed during the coronation festivities in Prague, either as early as August 1791 for Leopold II, or certainly for Leopold's successor Francis I in August 1792. (There is a set of parts dating from 1792, and the same parts were probably used the year before.) It seems that Mozart must have seen the chance to be represented at the coronation festivities in 1791, not only with La clemenza di Tito, but also with a mass composition: he wrote from Prague requesting that the parts for his old Mass in C be sent to him there. He was held in very high regard in Prague: The Marriage of Figaro had been a smash hit there, and they had commissioned Don Giovanni. It seems likely therefore that the city would have taken on the mass as its own, and the nickname would have grown from there."

http://christermalmberg.se/documents/musik/klassiskt/mozart/mozart_verk_massor.php
Since opera was the foremost musical genre of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it is hardly surprising that operatic elements should have found their way into the sacred music of the time. This caused the development of the "stilus ecclesiasticus mixtus" or mixed church style, which combined traditional contrapuntal choruses with coloratura solo arias and ensembles. This development began mainly in Naples, hence the term Neapolitan Mass. The imposing solemn Mass or Missa solemnis split the text of the Ordinary of the Mass into separate pieces, like the individual numbers in an opera, a practice which contemporary theoreticians such as Johann Joseph Fux and Meinrad Spiess opposed. They were unable however to arrest the development of this genre, with its leanings towards pomp and showiness. On 19 February 1749 Pope Benedict XIV issued an encyclical on church music, which sought to counter these operatic excesses and drew up rigid norms of what was or was not musically permissible in the liturgy of the Mass. Church music which employed instruments must sound neither profane, worldly nor operatic, and the use of trombones, trumpets, fifes (flutes) and horns was forbidden, as was the use of castrati.
Because of the restricted authority of the papacy in the eighteenth century, the actual effectiveness of the encyclical was confined to Italy and southern Germany. Even in the time of the young Mozart the cantata-type Mass derived from the Neapolitan School was being fostered, mainly by Johann Adolf Hasse, an opera composer married to a famous prima donna. But the reactionary view expressed in the papel publication could not be quelled, especially as it had the support of the Enlightenment movement, which was gaining more and more ground around the middle of the century. It was the prosaic and pedantic reformer, Emperor Joseph II, who took up the papal regulations for the Austrian dominions. In an imperial rescript of 26 January 1754 he banned timpani and trumpets from the church and sought to restrict the instrumental accompaniment of church music generally. He succeeded only partially, for the love of festive orchestral Masses ran far too deep in Austria, but that is another story. After the death of the Emperor in 1790 his regulations were relaxed or even rescinded.


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