# What if...



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Would Beethoven be as "great" as he is if Mozart had not died and left a place for him?
Consider:
Mozart is heading in a Romantic direction already with Don Giovanni and in a more Germanic direction with Zauberflote. He has expanded his orchestral palate with the addition of clarinets as a standard instrument. Symphonies 40 and 41 expand his harmonic thinking. He was starting to get some personal and financial stability by going in a more popular direction, or at least performing for a wider audience. He is starting on a path that Beethoven would later take. Unfortunately in 1791, he is ausgespeilt. The next year Beethoven shows up in Vienna. He seems to somewhat pick up where Mozart left off. He even studies with Haydn, who called Mozart the greatest composer he knew. and with Antonio Salieri (I wonder what Salieri really thought about Mozart, Amadeus notwithstanding?) IF Mozart were still alive and working when Beethoven showed up, would Beethoven have been lost in Mozarts shadow, like Schubert in Beethovens, or would he still have become the "great" Beethoven we all know and love? (Well, some of us anyway)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I have been over this a thousand times - maybe the biggest what if in the history of music.

Mozart's music in the last few years was evolving rapidly - the texture of his orchestral pieces and in the operas was becoming richer all the time. Some of the music already sounds like mature Beethoven here and there - the slow introduction the the prague symphony for example - the 24th piano concerto - parts of Die Zauberflote. 

We will never know alas - musical history would have been different - Beethoven would have been different. 

Mozart was really the first "great" composer to die young. Bach, Haydn, Vivaldi all had a good innings. 

We could speculate on Schubert too - if he's lived a decent age. Mozart and Schubert were, I believe - the two greatest talents in music - what bitter luck that they died young.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Had Beethoven been trampled by a horse and killed when he was 3 years old he probably wouldn't have been that great of a composer either.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Such speculation is vulnerable to prejudice, in this case to 'a more than average degree'.

I'll just point out that Beethoven very much wished to study with Mozart. If Mozart hadn't died, and that wish been granted, How would Beethoven's muse been affected?


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Perhaps Beethoven would have been different but someone with his talent would still be great.


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

drpraetorus said:


> Would Beethoven be as "great" as he is if Mozart had not died and left a place for him?
> Consider:
> Mozart is heading in a Romantic direction already with Don Giovanni and in a more Germanic direction with Zauberflote. He has expanded his orchestral palate with the addition of clarinets as a standard instrument. Symphonies 40 and 41 expand his harmonic thinking. He was starting to get some personal and financial stability by going in a more popular direction, or at least performing for a wider audience. He is starting on a path that Beethoven would later take. Unfortunately in 1791, he is ausgespeilt. The next year Beethoven shows up in Vienna. He seems to somewhat pick up where Mozart left off. He even studies with Haydn, who called Mozart the greatest composer he knew. and with Antonio Salieri (I wonder what Salieri really thought about Mozart, Amadeus notwithstanding?) IF Mozart were still alive and working when Beethoven showed up, would Beethoven have been lost in Mozarts shadow, like Schubert in Beethovens, or would he still have become the "great" Beethoven we all know and love? (Well, some of us anyway)


What a difficult question. And it is unavoidable when one feels the last Mozart's works bigger in density and emotional complexity. It is hard to say but, because of my bent toward Mozart over Beethoven, make me think that Beethoven would have struggled a lot if Mozart do not die so young because we know that Mozart himself never recognized boundaries when composing was about.

¿?


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Mozart lived fast and died young. If he would have lived another 30 years and kept writing with the same quality and quantity (or dare I say, getting even better...) as in his last 5 years, the body of his work would have been the greatest achievement any human being has ever accomplished. You can only speculate what deep impact that would have had on the history of music. Let alone poor Ludwig...


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Would Beethoven have been a better composer if he would have had a great teacher on his childhood, like Mozart had his dad?


Was the inventor of a shovel groundbreaking?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Who knows? Had Mozart been around in the early 19th century perhaps it could have spurred Beethoven to even greater heights assuming he felt he was having to compete against him? As for Mozart, I think his priority may have been to make real money by dominating the opera world and make young rucks like Rossini have to impatiently wait their turn.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

If Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart had never existed, should I have tater-tots or some frosted mini-wheats for breakfast?


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

In my opinion dr praetorius is right, and Beethoven would have lived in Mozart's shadow and merely been 'a great composer' as opposed to 'one of the greatest'. That doesn't stop me preferring Beethoven to Mozart, and indeed his current output to Mozart's potential one even, although that is a silly question which no one has asked (fortunately).

It is a remarkable fact that from Bach (only because I don't know my history pre-Bach well enough) until the second Viennese school there are no great teacher-student pairs of composers. The most obvious is Haydn and Beethoven, but it is clear that Beethoven was somewhat of a rebellious student, and indeed cut short the lessons and went and studied under Albrechtsburger (cannot be bothered to check spelling). He said of Haydn "he was my teacher but I never learnt anything from him". About the closest you get is JS and CPE Bach, though being father and son somewhat confuses the issue.

So Beethoven learning from Mozart may have been a bad thing in and of itself, quite apart from living in his shadow. Who knows?


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Ramako said:


> It is a remarkable fact that from Bach (only because I don't know my history pre-Bach well enough) until the second Viennese school there are no great teacher-student pairs of composers.


In terms of great teacher-student pairs, I would put Rimsky and Stravinsky at least on par with, if not above, the Second Viennese School.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> In terms of great teacher-student pairs, I would put Rimsky and Stravinsky at least on par with, if not above, the Second Viennese School.


Perhaps true, but Stravinsky is definitely a modernist, and modernism was what I was attempting (unsuccessfully) to exclude from my observation.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Ramako said:


> Perhaps true, but Stravinsky is definitely a modernist, and modernism was what I was attempting (unsuccessfully) to exclude from my observation.


I can take modern classical music on small doses.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Ramako said:


> Perhaps true, but Stravinsky is definitely a modernist, and modernism was what I was attempting (unsuccessfully) to exclude from my observation.


I see. I mention it only because you seemed to be using Bach and the Second Viennese School as chronological bookends, and Stravinsky's studies with Rimsky more or less fall within that time frame, being roughly contemporaneous with Berg and Webern's studies with Schoenberg. Also, Stravinsky was definitely not a modernist at the time he was studying with Rimsky.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Beethoven did in fact have an excellent teacher in Bonn, Johann Neefe, or something like that,
who gave him a thorough grounding in composition , as well as having him make a thorough study of the Well Tempered Clavier .


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