# what have you changed your mind about?



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

This is a bit of a spin-off of the religion thread, where there was some discussion of the non-rational factors subconsciously or semi-consciously influencing or determining our beliefs. (Sorry for the somewhat academic syntax.)

I'm curious - are you the same religion that you grew up? If not, what did you change? What motivated the change? Even if you belong to the same tradition, your take on it has probably changed over the years: how and why?

Or politically, have you changed your basic stance on any issues? 

Perhaps even scientifically? 

I'll go first but I'll be brief for now because I don't want to make the thread all about me. (At least not yet! ) 

I grew up primarily in a fundamentalist Christian, Southern Baptist, creationist, and politically conservative family, though I also lived with a family of Jehovah's Witnesses for awhile and a family in the Church of Christ (the Campbellite or Restorationist tradition, basically evangelical). But then in college I became just plain Evangelical, later I intended to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, the tradition that I still love the most, then for awhile I considered Traditionalism, and now I am essentially atheist (technically, but only in the most strict sense, an agnostic). My politics shifted as well, so that now I am a little left of center on most issues. Finally, I now accept the theory of evolution. 

Also - I grew up primarily in a non-musical household! Aside from country gospel and a little pop music that we could essentially smuggle past our parents, there was nothing. I remember when I first heard the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th - a television commercial for an answering machine that would sing "Nobody's home." I heard some of the classic "oldies" from my uncle, who I spent a lot of time with. This has changed in a big way!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, for one I've changed my mind about Darwin's theory of evolution. There is a lot in Darwin's theory that is outdated. For example - Darwin suggests mutations occuring in DNA lead to slow genetic evolution over long periods of time. Evidence in the fossil record is more consistent with periodic bursts of evolution (ie- the Cambrian explosion). Where for millions of years you'll just see very little variation in the fossil record and then sudden drastic changes seem to occur - for example millions of years of just single celled organisms and then bam, huge amounts of evolution and more complex invertebrates show up seemingly over night. Darwin's theory of evolution doesnt account for this and is not really compatible with relevant newer models in science (I am not a scientist I am going by information I learned in college as well as the ideas of modern scholars such as David Wilcock).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Major changes in my life: from Catholic to atheist. From single man to husband to father. From a strong believer in a school of thought in my professional field to joining a very different and almost opposite one. From being entirely a leftist to approaching the moderate center as I age. From cinema and wine as my main hobbies to opera.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

There are two interesting changes. First, I hardly ever listened to classical music until I was in my 30s. Now I hardly ever listen to anything else. Second, like probably over 99% of all people I believed humans have free will. Now I feel it is likely that we do not have free will.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Second, like probably over 99% of all people I believed humans have free will. Now I feel it is likely that we do not have free will.


Oh, that is interesting. IMO, it depends on the definition of "free will." If it makes any sense, I think we have the kind of free will that we want to have, but not the kind that we think we have....


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> From a strong believer in a school of thought in my professional field to joining a very different and almost opposite one.


Is it too nosey to ask for more info? If it's too personal or something, of course it's none of our business. But it might be interesting. I'm also curious to know what has motivated the change from leftist to moderate.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

science said:


> Oh, that is interesting. IMO, it depends on the definition of "free will." If it makes any sense, I think we have the kind of free will that we want to have, but not the kind that we think we have....


Free will is not so easy to define. Essentially, I believe our actions are initiated by what generally are referred to as subconscious brain processes. In other words our conscious self (the thing we think of as the "I" inside our heads) does not choose what we do and think. It is only aware of our initiating actions after those actions have been initiated.

I'm not sure what kind of free will you think we want to have. My view is we have neither the free most want to have or think we have.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Free will is not so easy to define. Essentially, I believe our actions are initiated by what generally are referred to as subconscious brain processes. In other words our conscious self (the thing we think of as the "I" inside our heads) does not choose what we do and think. It is only aware of our initiating actions after those actions have been initiated.
> 
> I'm not sure what kind of free will you think we want to have. My view is we have neither the free most want to have or think we have.


I think you're almost entirely right, but I would not be surprised if in at least some instances consciousness makes a difference. Or, what do you think consciousness does? Is it a spandrel of brain evolution, or was it adaptive in some way?

The kind of free will that I think we want is the ability to make choices in line with our desires, the ability to do different things in different situations. The philosophical "trick" is to think carefully about what "I" am: not a spirit inhabiting my brain, utterly free of physical influence, but the physical stuff itself. Or, better, I am a pattern of interactions within that stuff.

I know that's pretty abstract, but sight is an accessible metaphor. If we had the same emotional attachment to sight, we could well ask whether "we" see anything, or just subconscious brain processes see things. If "I" am a spirit inhabiting my brain, then the nerves of my eyes and brain would seem to report their information to the spirit that actually does the seeing. Put this way, it's relatively more clear that this spirit we might imagine ourselves to be is essentially an airy homunculous, pushing back the question to how does that thing perceive anything? More little nerves in its own eyes, reporting to its own inner spirit.

So - one way (the way I think most likely correct) to avoid that reduction to absurdity, is that we have to learn to understand ourselves as something within the brain, not something immaterial but something material. In a way of course we are the actual matter, but we are also the consciousness, which is distinct from the matter in a sense. And we are not just that, we are also the semi-conscious and subconscious process. So we are the stuff in there that is making decisions.

That is of course not the kind of free will that we think we have: we experience ourselves as an immaterial consciousness inhabiting the back of our eyes. (This way of experiencing ourselves may be somewhat culturally determined: before Descartes' ideas took over, many Europeans assumed that the soul was in some sense physical.) We think that immaterial consciousness makes the choices - and I'd guess that it doesn't exist to choose and that in any case the neural processes that produce consciousness are probably not exactly the same ones that make decisions.

In this post, I think I'm saying the same thing that Owen Flanagan says in _The Problem of the Soul_, which are a book and a philosopher that might interest you if you want to think about this stuff.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

science said:


> I think you're almost entirely right, but I would not be surprised if in at least some instances consciousness makes a difference. Or, what do you think consciousness does? Is it a spandrel of brain evolution, or was it adaptive in some way?
> 
> The kind of free will that I think we want is the ability to make choices in line with our desires, the ability to do different things in different situations. The philosophical "trick" is to think carefully about what "I" am: not a spirit inhabiting my brain, utterly free of physical influence, but the physical stuff itself. Or, better, I am a pattern of interactions within that stuff.


I suspect that consciousness is a spandrel. Many philosophers use the term epiphenomenon - sort of a side effect of brain processes. If consciousness is an after product of brain processes, it seems unlikely that it could be adaptive. On the other hand, I suppose there could be some feedback between the neural processes that give rise to consciousness and the neural processes that determine behavior and action. If that were so, consciousness could be adaptive.

Certainly the neural processes giving rise to actions are in a sense "making choices". They are processing inputs, evaluating various options, and selecting one action. We know that this process is not strictly deterministic, but it is not clear that there is a possibility of free alternative actions. Given a particular brain state before an action, I suspect that the "choice" will only vary due to random quantum effects, and so the action is not free.


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## gurthbruins (May 12, 2010)

I grew up with parents like most people of their age and ambit - essentially unbelieving and indifferent to religion. So (thank God!) I got no brainwashing from them. Forced to attend church in boarding school when 11 - 13, was entirely ineffective. By the time I read Nietsche at 16 I was an atheist.

So the biggest change for me was coming to understand the existence of God, albeit a God incorporating none of the absurdities of Western religion. Nor did my belief in NO-AFTERLIFE change at all in this process.

An equally large change was changing from an omnivorous diet to a fruitarian diet in 1971. This has an enormous influence on the bodysoul.

Free will is an interesting topic. Nothing in the universe is ever entirely free from the influence of every other particle in it. Only the whole can possibly be free, because there is simply nothing that can influence it other than itself, which is the meaning of freedom. And for the pantheist, that whole is God.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

science said:


> Is it too nosey to ask for more info? If it's too personal or something, of course it's none of our business. But it might be interesting. I'm also curious to know what has motivated the change from leftist to moderate.


About the specifics of my field, yes, I think it is too personal to reveal since this is an anonymous place and I want to keep it this way - I've seen in other message boards people being identified by real name and real address after too much disclosure of personal information.

The change from leftist to moderate (not complete, I'm still a leftist, but less so) I believe has to do with becoming a father and entering the last third of my life expectancy, and starting to worry about the future of my children and the future of my future grandchildren, with a realization that this world is only becoming tougher and tougher and some ideals that I once upheld seem a bit naive in terms of the likelihood that one day peoples and nations will be in more acute conflict for dwindling resources, and we may have to be less generous with our own resources if we want to survive.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

gurthbruins said:


> An equally large change was changing from an omnivorous diet to a fruitarian diet in 1971. This has an enormous influence on the bodysoul.


Huge. Developing food allergies in the past caused me also to start eating a mostly fruitarian diet. Shortly after I had all this spiritual awareness I didn't have before. Coincidence? I think not. I would go so far as to say in todays world - food itself has become a drug for most people. Its an addiction for most in the developed world and is used as an opiate of the masses.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

As I specified in the religion thread, I was born and raised Catholic, now I am a confirmed atheist. I have stopped thinking that everything in life is a result of some "higher" being directing the order of things; our lives our determined by our choices only, and their consequences. I have stopped looking for some ultimate "meaning" to life and I have determined that only life itself is meaningful, and how we go about living it. I have stopped thinking that sex is "spiritual" in any way; it's simply a kind of healthy recreation for us, since reproductive concerns for humans are obviously secondary. I have stopped believing in a "right" or "wrong"; again, there are only decisions, and their consequences.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

I used to think the saxophone was an ugly, honking cone. In jazz tunes I used to greatly prefer the trumpet/piano/guitar solos. Now I rate a well played sax amongst my favourite timbres of all instruments.

In fact I can't think of any instrument that I don't like the sound of in the right context. Bagpipes, jews harps, shehnais, kemenches, hurdy gurdys, bandoneons, all have their place in music. As you can tell from my list, reed instruments took me the longest to come round to. It's a case of hearing the right music.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

My (ir)religious affiliation has never really changed, only developed over time. Neither of my parents are religious - though my Mum is an iffy-I-don't-know-but-kind-of-believe-in-psychics-and-ghosts type - but neither of them were ever outwardly atheist. Growing up in the UK, I was exposed to the same routine of prayers and hymns as everyone else in a British primary school, though I don't think I ever once gathered that they were even intended to represent reality; I didn't consciously think of them as stories either - I suppose I just ignored them, as none of it interested me!

Through my teenage years, I never identified with a faith, but came to see what bad affects it could have on society, and so formed some very simplistic opinions on how religions are inwardly conflicting in terms of evidence and consistency. Once I started university, I became much more interest in the specifics of evolutionary theory, and ended up spending a LOT of time watching YouTube talks and debates by the Four Horsemen and others, which is what has persuaded me to be a more vocal atheist and secularist.

I don't think there's anything else I've radically changed my mind over, except for the few years it took me to realise, contrary to my father's views, that there's nothing wrong with being gay


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I used to think opera was people standing shouting/screeching at each other in a foreign language & I hated it. Now I _know_ it's people etc etc but now I love it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I used to believe in Santa Claus, now I do not.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Polednice said:


> My (ir)religious affiliation has never really changed, only developed over time. Neither of my parents are religious - though my Mum is an iffy-I-don't-know-but-kind-of-believe-in-psychics-and-ghosts type - but neither of them were ever outwardly atheist. Growing up in the UK, *I was exposed to the same routine of prayers and hymns as everyone else in a British primary school*, though I don't think I ever once gathered that they were even intended to represent reality; I didn't consciously think of them as stories either - I suppose I just ignored them, as none of it interested me!


Interesting! I didn't know that was standard in the UK. In America, organized classroom prayer is _illegal_ in public schools, though some vocal conservatives think it should be reinstated.

I never had much exposure to religion growing up. My mom was raised Catholic, but left the church and now describes herself as "spiritual" (I don't know what exactly that means to her). My dad comes from a Jewish background, but has always been atheist. My grandma tried to get me baptized behind me mother's back, but the priest wouldn't go for it.

As for something I've changed my mind about--prior to high school, I thought most classical music was boring!  Now it's pretty much all I listen to.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I used to believe in Santa Claus, now I do not.


I don't think I ever _really_ believed in Santa Claus (except maybe when I was too young to even remember it now). I wanted to believe.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I also used to believe in the tooth fairy, but not anymore.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> Interesting! I didn't know that was standard in the UK. In America, organized classroom prayer is _illegal_ in public schools, though some vocal conservatives think it should be reinstated.


I believe it is ok as long as it is organized by students, and participation is voluntary and not enforced by teachers.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

science said:


> I believe it is ok as long as it is organized by students, and participation is voluntary and not enforced by teachers.


Right, just not school-sponsored or during class time. American public school kids (today) don't have a "routine of prayers and hymns" if they aren't religious--schools can, and do, get in a lot of legal trouble for such things.


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## gurthbruins (May 12, 2010)

Before 16, Bach and Mozart were meaningless words to me. Then I discovered them, and spent the next 4 years soaking up the classical repertory. Music became a necessary condition for survival.
When I became fruitarian at age 35, the need for music fell away and I never spent time on it. I disposed of my instruments, records and music. I don't possess a single record or CD, and don't want to. My own compositions are enough for me.

Well, almost enough. I never cared much for opera, always preferred instrumental music. Now that has changed, I've grown to appreciate the human voice more, and now enjoy hearing opera singers.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

I was brought up as a Lutheran - nothing has changed there. 

With my political affiliation, I used to be a registered Republican, but changed about 10 years ago re-registered as am Independent.

For me, it's the Great Pumpkin instead of Kris Kringle :tiphat:


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Meaghan said:


> Interesting! I didn't know that was standard in the UK. In America, organized classroom prayer is _illegal_ in public schools, though some vocal conservatives think it should be reinstated.


Unfortunately, because we do have a state Church, schools are actually legally bound to have a daily act of collective worship, "wholly or mainly Christian in character". That law is actually very rarely enforced, but it is still a part of school-life to pray and sing hymns in assembly every day, at least until you reach high school. There's an interesting article in the Guardian about the movement to get the law scrapped, if you're interested.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Its quite sad ^

When I was about 11 I started a petition with some other people to stop religious stuff in our school, but we were basically given some crappy excuse and told to go away despite the huge number of signatures.


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## Orange Soda King (Sep 14, 2010)

My religious beliefs haven't changed much (I'm a Christian and I've grown up that way), but one big thing that I've changed my mind about is Tchaikovsky's 1st piano concerto.

When I first heard it, I liked it, but now I don't like it that much at all.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Orange Soda King said:


> My religious beliefs haven't changed much (I'm a Christian and I've grown up that way), but one big thing that I've changed my mind about is Tchaikovsky's 1st piano concerto.
> 
> When I first heard it, I liked it, but now I don't like it that much at all.


Wow, this must have ruined your day.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I used to believe in Santa Claus, now I do not.


Thanks for ruining Christmas, you flaming galah!


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## KaerbEmEvig (Dec 15, 2009)

mmsbls said:


> Free will is not so easy to define. Essentially, I believe our actions are initiated by what generally are referred to as subconscious brain processes. In other words our conscious self (the thing we think of as the "I" inside our heads) does not choose what we do and think. It is only aware of our initiating actions after those actions have been initiated.


That's exactly the way it is (according to current knowledge). Neocortex probably does have a say, but conscious thought doesn't seem to be the dominant force when it comes to decision making.

To answer science's question. Consciousness may be, simply put, a by-product. Music is thought to be such a by-product.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Have any of you ever had to make an important decision. You consciously make one, but really deep down you made a different choice and you only realise it a while later?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'll have to think about that.

Like: I decide not to spend any more money on CDs this month, then I just happen to find myself having lunch across the street from my favorite CD shop, and then....


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> Have any of you ever had to make an important decision. You consciously make one, but really deep down you made a different choice and you only realise it a while later?


Sure thing! It's like coming nose to nose with a bear. Consciously you tell yourself "Run!", but deep down inside you know that you shouldn't.

But in that case you are lucky if you lived to regret your bad decision.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

KaerbEmEvig said:


> That's exactly the way it is (according to current knowledge). Neocortex probably does have a say, but conscious thought doesn't seem to be the dominant force when it comes to decision making.
> 
> To answer science's question. Consciousness may be, simply put, a by-product. Music is thought to be such a by-product.


Personally, I'd suspect that music is adaptive. We can effortlessly memorize thousands of tunes; we recognize them at different tempos or transposed to different pitches. I feel that's too much to be a by-product; though they may have originated as by-products I suspect these abilities have been adaptive. Perhaps sexual selection is the explanation, but I believe they evolved together with religion and for the same reason.


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## KaerbEmEvig (Dec 15, 2009)

Sound memorisation - sure. Music - quite unlikely, to be honest. I'm basing my opinion on Oliver Sach's Musicophilia, by the way.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

KaerbEmEvig said:


> I'm basing my opinion on Oliver Sach's Musicophilia, by the way.


I'm reading that at the moment!  I like what Steven Pinker has said on this subject as well.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Quite a few faith to non-faith biogs here. Mine is happily the other way round. I was brought up in a sort-of atheist home in that my mother's parents were ferociously atheist and my dad had been brought up in a Christian home and rebelled against it, but couldn't quite free himself from it if you know what I mean. I have early memories of those maternal grandparents trying to turn me against God....a bad, bad thing to do to an infant grandchild. I went to university as an atheist but not an 'educated' one. I'd not read any humanist books or anything like that. There was a Christian on my course, easily identified by the stickers on his briefcase. One of these said something like 'God is alive'. I told him that wasn't true because the definition of a living thing was that it could reproduce. In this I lay claim to having made the lamest anti-religious argument in history. Anyway, I became a Christian about a year after this. No regrets. I have just been looking at animations of the molecular machinery inside living cells, like the awesome ATP synthase motor. My heart is bursting with praise for the great Designer!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Chris said:


> Quite a few faith to non-faith biogs here. Mine is happily the other way round. I was brought up in a sort-of atheist home in that my mother's parents were ferociously atheist and my dad had been brought up in a Christian home and rebelled against it, but couldn't quite free himself from it if you know what I mean. I have early memories of those maternal grandparents trying to turn me against God....a bad, bad thing to do to an infant grandchild. I went to university as an atheist but not an 'educated' one. I'd not read any humanist books or anything like that. There was a Christian on my course, easily identified by the stickers on his briefcase. One of these said something like 'God is alive'. I told him that wasn't true because the definition of a living thing was that it could reproduce. In this I lay claim to having made the lamest anti-religious argument in history. Anyway, I became a Christian about a year after this. No regrets. I have just been looking at animations of the molecular machinery inside living cells, like the awesome ATP synthase motor. My heart is bursting with praise for the great Designer!


How do your parents feel about your conversion?


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

science said:


> How do your parents feel about your conversion?


They didn't like it at all. I remember my Dad, who was highly strung, frantically quoting obscure verses from Leviticus at me. I didn't know what he was on about.


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## MusicSoundsNice (Apr 9, 2011)

Originally, I was brought up as a fundamentalist, YEC protestant. To be fair, I only ever wanted to be Christian because I feared eternal torture from the Christian God. I believed the Earth was 6000 years old and evolution was BS. Then, at the age of 10, when I realised quite a lot of religions blackmailed people in the same way, I no longer felt scared, so I abandoned my fundamentalism, but still remained Christian due to my upbringing. It was only really when I reached high school, and grasped a decent understanding of science that I realised how deceiving and wrong fundamentalism was. I was angry that such people could delude people so deliberately, with their lack of knowledge - even when there is no conflict between religion and science. Further reading into the bible, and reading various books (atheistic and theistic), I found less and less reason to believe in God, and more and more reasons to abandon religion and favour critical thinking, so nowadays, I am practically an atheist (who still practices Christian traditions for cultural reasons).


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## Orange Soda King (Sep 14, 2010)

Serge said:


> Wow, this must have ruined your day.


How did disliking the Tchaikovsky 1 ruin my day? Lol.

My day was brightened whenever I discovered Brahms 1.


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## delallan (Jan 4, 2011)

Like you, 'MusicSoundsNice', I was brought up in a fundamentalist home. In fact, I went to 'Bible College' after secondary school to become a minister. It was during that time that I began to investigate main-line Christianity, and slowly began to appreciate the depth of Christian influence on the arts and culture, and in fact all of Western society. To make a long story short, I left fundamentalism and became Roman Catholic; the faith which I believe can trace its roots to the earliest Christian community. And also like you, 'MusicSoundsNice', I practice critical thinking.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

delallan said:


> Like you, 'MusicSoundsNice', I was brought up in a fundamentalist home. In fact, I went to 'Bible College' after secondary school to become a minister. It was during that time that I began to investigate main-line Christianity, and slowly began to appreciate the depth of Christian influence on the arts and culture, and in fact all of Western society. To make a long story short, I left fundamentalism and became Roman Catholic; the faith which I believe can trace its roots to the earliest Christian community. And also like you, 'MusicSoundsNice', I practice critical thinking.


Catholicism is a wonderful tradition - overflowing with resources to help you in your emotional life and ethical struggles. I wish I'd been born into such a wonderful tradition, or had converted to one when I still believed in it.


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