# Bach 33-CD set -- cheap but worth it?



## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Could you Bach experts please tell me, based on the list shown, if this set is worth purchasing? Going for about $60 on Amazon. Of course, I know the big-hitters like Gould, Richter, Perahia & Galway, but Jan Vogler and Hengelbrock and Kuijken and others are unknown to me. Any insight appreciated! :tiphat: PS: You'll have to click on the pic to enlarge.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I would listen to the choral works, and Brandenburg Concertos on Spotify to see if you like the sound and interpretation. I can only speak for the St. Matthew by Leonhardt, the WTC by Richter, and the Goldberg by Gould which are all recommended. I like Pinchas Zukerman too, although I haven't heard him play that particular work.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

A good sampler set for 2 dollars a disc.
Depends on how deeply you want to get into Bach.
Its a good starter set.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Was sampling some Jan Vogler and got on the fence about it. Then I found out I'm not the only one on the fence: https://www.thestrad.com/bach-cello-suites-bwv1007-12/600.article 
Wondering now how the Mass in B minor will fare. 
Not sure why Sony Classical -- with its coterie of big name artists -- didn't include big-hitters across the board. Like why not Yo-Yo for the suites? Is it an attempt to push lesser-acclaimed artists and make up for losses? I sometimes get that feeling with these box sets that include such honored classics with not-so-awesome albums. What do you guys think?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I read a so so review about the B Minor Mass but I'd have to listen to it. I'm not a big fan of the cello suites so I would need to hear them by a great artist like Casals or Starker. I listened to some of Vogler which sounded purely technical. But I can't really judge by listening to just a couple minutes. Kuijken conducts the La Petite Bande which is a fine ensemble and they do the one voice per part style which is the antithesis of the old style romantic approach like Klemperer. I have their cantatas box which is quite good but I haven't heard their St. John Passion.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Going off the recordings in there that I know, I would snap it up! Some great performances in there for sure, namely Richter’s legendary WTC (though the sound is far from audiophile and the piano is out of tune), Hengelbrock’s delightful B minor (a perfect compromise between fleet HIP and reverent old-style), Perahia’s cultured partitas, and Leonhardt’s affecting (though subdued) SMP. I can’t abide Gould and Harnoncourt, but everything else in there looks like ideal material for a starter sampler.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Going off the recordings in there that I know, I would snap it up! Some great performances in there for sure, namely Richter's legendary WTC (though the sound is far from audiophile and the piano is out of tune), Hengelbrock's delightful B minor (a perfect compromise between fleet HIP and reverent old-style), Perahia's cultured partitas, and Leonhardt's affecting (though subdued) SMP. I can't abide Gould and Harnoncourt, but everything else in there looks like ideal material for a starter sampler.


The piano is out of tune??? Are you sure? I'd never heard that before about Richter's album.
I like Harnoncourt so that is actually an attraction.
But what I sampled of the Mass in B sounds merely serviceable. (Hyperion has some great Mass in B's, btw).
The cello suites almost kills the deal for me. Vogler sounded boring and weird. Then again maybe every version is boring and weird after Peter Wispelway. 
The St. John Passion seems pretty good by Kuijken. 
Are there any other bonafide winners in the set?
Like I've never heard the Galway but assume it is amazing.
And how is the Ensemble Parlando?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^My apologies, it’s probably the RCA recording in that box, and I think I got it confused with some other Richter WTC recordings floating around such as the one on Alto.

Also it’s worth noting that, even if you like Harnoncourt’s conducting, he uses boy sopranos, which is an acquired taste to say the least.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

I know 24 of the CD's in that set. Generally it may be said, that the set is not for HIP-sters, since almost all the keyboard works (even the keyboard part of the violin/keyboard sonatas) are played on piano. Other than that I think Vogler's cello suites and Schmidt-Gaden's Christmas oratory are uneventful run-of-the-mill versions. 

High points in this set for me are Kuijken's Brandenburgs and SJP, Leonhardt's SMP and Hengelbrock's Mass, and to lesser extent Ensemble Parlando's harpsichord concertos and Harnoncourt's. cantatas. The rest I can easily live without.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Well-Tempered Piano on 2CDs can't be complete. I agree that Richter's piano sound there isn't ideal, but it's an interesting recording.

You can also get a lot of stuff selected by yourself very cheaply these days.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I think most of the time it's a better strategy to resist the allure of a low priced deal and buy the recordings we truly want. But there is more than a fair amount of good performances in that set. Especially the sacred choral, and keyboard works. Although it includes only half of the WTC. A couple years back I bought a ton of used Bach CDs of my choice for that 60 dollar amount.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

This set is a bit all over the place. If you need some cheap Bach sampler then sure it would work. If you want some good representation of different works then it's better to look elsewhere. Like getting separate "best of" cantatas and choral works (Gardiner 22-CD box on Archive, for example, will make 12 CDs of the above boxset mostly obsolete), separate organ works (at least 2-CD collection, many to choose from, try Hurford on Decca), Brandenburgs etc.
As more and more music is being made available in boxsets, I start to think only the complete collections are worth it.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

GrosseFugue said:


> Not sure why Sony Classical -- with its coterie of big name artists -- didn't include big-hitters across the board. Like why not Yo-Yo for the suites?


They probably figured that Ma will continue to sell on his own merits, and looked to get some mileage out of Vogler's set.

I tend to pass on this sort of set, at least for a composer that's as extensively recorded as Bach. There are decent performance in this set, but nothing that I'd consider indispensable, or even a top choice.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

They are some decent and some highly regarded recordings. 
But what I find really annoying is that they seem to put these together without thinking. If the numbers on the backcover are correct, one gets partita #2 both with Gould and Perahia but no 5 and 6... And one book (or worse? a selection of both?) of the WTC...


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Richter's pianos were sometimes out of tune in his live recitals, but that happened more often later in his career, & especially when he was prone to giving impromptu recitals across Russia. The older Soviet era recordings, in general, & especially those made from live concerts, aren't always known for their impeccably 'in tune' pianos. But Richter's RCA Bach WTC recordings were made in the studio in the 1970s, and they derive from Melodiya, before that label had modernized their equipment, which occurred in the 1980s when they went digital. So, the less than ideal sound engineering isn't RCA's fault, but rather Melodiya's. The opening Prelude & Fugue No. 1 of Book 1, for instance, sounds like Richter is playing at the opposite end of a tunnel, as the piano is strangely muffled & distant: 



. But then the sound gets a little better after that. So, it isn't terrible, but it's not great, either. I do agree that Richter's Bach playing is worthwhile. Even though among Russian pianists, I tend to prefer Samuel Feinberg (mono) and Valery Afanassiev (digital) in the WTC, and Richter himself on both Russian Revelation (Book 1) & most especially in his earlier selections from the WTC on DG. I've also heard that Richter's 1974 live WTC recordings from Innsbruck, Austria are even better, but have yet to get to them: 



.

As for Kuijken's Brandenburg Concertos 1-6, it depends on which Kuijken/La Petite Bande recording is in the set?, since Kuijken has recorded the Brandenburg Concertos with La Petite Bande twice (as well as his earlier famous set with Leonhardt on Seon), and the third set on the Accent label is arguably the better of the two. I'm not positive, because I've never sat down and compared them, but I might not recommend his first 1993/94 set with Deutsche Harmonia Mundi: since, as I recall, Kuijken himself said he wasn't entirely happy with that set (as he wasn't satisfied with the 'pseudo' authentic trumpets that they used, etc.). The second set is one instrument to a part, and it is also the more controversial of the two, considering that the cello part is played on the violincello da spalla, otherwise known as the "shoulder cello". Which has never been done entirely before. While Kuijken plays sections of the violin part on a basse de violin & not a violin. Which isn't unjustified, but it is unusual, so there's a lot to debate here. However, the playing is of a high order, and it all sounds very spontaneous (except for the harpsichordist, who's a bit strict rhythmically in the 5th Concerto, which is my favorite of the six, & specifically for the wonderful harpsichord solo in it.) So, while these recordings wouldn't be my first, second, or third choice for the Brandenburgs, they are enjoyable, & I'd have no problem recommending them.

--I haven't gone through & compared them, but the following link may be to La Petite Bande's first 1993/94 recording? [EDIT: I just noticed that "Deutsche Harmonia Mundi" is one of the labels pictured on the box set (along with RCA & Sony), which means that Kuijken's first 1993/94 Brandenburg recording is almost certainly the set issued in the box, and not his later Accent recording]: 




--& here's a link to CD 1 of Kuijken's 2nd Brandenburg recording for Accent, which I favor: 



, and CD2: 



.

My main gripe with Kuijken in Bach's choral music is that he doesn't always rehearse his ensemble thoroughly enough, and sometimes he lets questionable intonation slips go with his singers. Which is more noticeable in the one-voice-to-a-part choral singing, or OVPP performance practice that Kuijken follows. Although I've not heard his St. John Passion (and, again, he may have done this Passion more than once?): 



. My guess is that you can do better here.

I own Hengelbrock's Mass in B minor and find it very good, but again, it's not a first, second, third, or fourth choice for the "Great Mass", in my view. But, for some people it is.

While I'm a big fan of Gustav Leonhardt's harpsichord playing, I've not always been a huge fan of his conducting of Bach's choral music; except to say that I have generally preferred his contribution to the Bach Cantata cycle that he shared with Nikolas Harnoncourt over Harnoncourt's. Even though I don't dislike Harnoncourt in the Cantatas. But Harnoncourt takes risks, and is more of a 'hit and miss' kind of conductor than the more strict & less eccentric Leonhardt. However, I can't really guide you here, because I've only heard Leonhardt's St. Matthew Passion once, & that was years ago, and I don't recall it very well. Which may say something.

Zimmerman and Pace are excellent in the 6 Violin Sonatas, & it is very beautiful playing, and they're very well recorded. So, it's a nice set to own. However, I'm not a huge fan of these sonatas played on a modern violin AND PIANO. I would prefer to hear them played on a period violin & harpsichord myself--such as by Pablo Valetti & Celine Frisch on the Alpha label, if you're open to doing some comparisons:

--Valetti, Frisch: 



--Zimmerman, Pace: 

















I'm not always a fan of pianist Martin Stadfeldt's Bach (such as his WTC), and he might not be my very top choice in Bach's Keyboard Concertos played on a piano. However, he does play this music with a lot of technical facility and youthful panache, and is more or less HIP in his approach (if a bit of a speed demon at times in the outer movements, which I got used to, & eventually liked). But I do like his Bach Concerto recordings: 



, even if, among other recordings of these works, I might slightly prefer pianist David Fray: 



.

However, I most enjoy Bach's Keyboard Concertos when they are played on a harpsichord, & accompanied by a small, chamber sized period ensemble, and I see this box set does additionally include recordings of these works played on a harpsichord & period instruments. However, I've not heard of the ensemble here--Ensemble Parlando (which may say something), so I can't comment. Considering that I'm an early music fan and am familiar with most of the period ensembles out there, I'd urge you to read some reviews on Ensemble Parlando's recording (as well as any other recordings by them).

--Yet, here's a very fine, little known set of Bach's Harpsichord Concertos that I would strongly recommend--among chamber sized versions (along with Ton Koopman's Amsterdam Baroque Soloists set on Erato, among the larger ensemble versions): 



.

Nor would Pinchas Zukerman likely be one of my top picks for recordings of Bach's Violin Concertos, either; though I admit that I've not heard him play these works. But I would expect that Zukerman's approach is too romantic in Bach.

I know nothing about the conductor of the Christmas Oratorio, or the performance. I suspect that it's an older recording? & if so, I wouldn't imagine that it compares favorably to Peter Schreier's Christmas Oratorio with the Staatskapelle Dresden, which is my favorite version among recordings made on modern instruments: 



. (Btw, it is available along with the rest of Schreier's Dresden recordings of Bach's choral music in a super discount, 12 CD digital box set--at $31.53 "new" presently on Amazon US--which is, for the most part, excellent: https://www.amazon.com/Collectors-J...r+schreier+bach&qid=1626379566&s=music&sr=1-1 ),

Friedrich Bernius is a well respected choral conductor, and his Bach Cantatas may be very good, but I've not heard them.

Overall, when compared to buying my favorite recordings of Bach's masterworks separately or individually, I'm a bit lukewarm on this set. But it's certainly not bad, and I must admit that I'm generally lukewarm on most box sets of this kind, since they're seldom consistently your best option, performance-wise. Though I do see the attraction from the standpoint of price. But can you really listen to all this music within a brief period of time? & if not, wouldn't it be better to buy the recordings separately, & more gradually over a longer period of time, and get to know each masterwork thoroughly, one at a time, via a more carefully chosen and probably more recommendable performance, overall. Also, do you yet know whether you prefer period instrument performances to modern instrument performances in Bach? or the piano versus the harpsichord? etc. As this set contains a mixture of the two.

If you do decide to buy the recordings individually & pass on this box set, if need be, come back and ask for recommendations, and I'd be happy to offer some suggestions; as well as further comparisons to make & sample from between the different kinds of approaches that musicians take to Bach's music. Btw, IMO, you should always try to sample a recording, first, before you actually buy it, if at all possible. Otherwise, it'll cost you a lot more money in the long run, and this hobby or passion can get very expensive.

P.S. I agree with Kreisler Jr.--if you do end up liking Murray Perahia's Partitas & English Suites, for instance, do you really want to own only 1/2 of each of these recordings? (unless you can still buy the other half separately via single CDs...?) Plus, do you really want to own just two of Glenn Gould's Six Partitas? that is, if you become a Gould fan.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Josquin13 said:


> As for Kuijken's Brandenburg Concertos 1-6, it depends on which Kuijken/La Petite Bande recording is in the set?, since Kuijken recorded the Brandenburg Concertos with La Petite Bande twice (as well as his earlier famous set with Leonhardt on Seon), and the third set on the Accent label is arguably the better of the two. I'm not positive, since I've never actually sat down and compared them, but I might not recommend his first 1993/94 set with Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, since, as I recall, Kuijken himself said he wasn't entirely happy with that set (as he wasn't satisfied with the 'pseudo' authentic trumpets that they used, etc.). The second set is one instrument to a part, and it is also more controversial. Considering that the cello part is played on the violincello da spalla, otherwise known as the "shoulder cello". Which has never been done entirely before. While Kuijken plays sections of the violin part on a basse de violin. Which isn't unjustified, but it is unusual, so there's a lot to debate here. However, the playing is of a high order, and it all sounds very spontaneous (except for the harpsichordist, who's a bit strict rhythmically in the 5th Concerto, which is my favorite of the six, & specifically for the wonderful harpsichord solo in it.) So, while these recordings wouldn't be my first, second, or third choice for the Brandenburgs, they are enjoyable, & I'd have no problem recommending them.


While I always read your post with great interest, you often confuse me. Kuijkens first Brandenburg set (DHM 1993/94 - presumably the one in the box) uses a corno da caccia instead of trumpet in concerto no.2, because Kuijken was dissatisfied with other ensembles use of "natural" trumpets with inauthentic fingerholes. Funny enough I own a live recording from the mid 1990es with La Petite Bande using one of these inauthentic trumpets (my guess is that the trumpeter is Friedemann Immer).

Kuijkens second commercial Brandenburg set on Accent features a basse de violon replacing the double bass or bass viola da gamba for the continuo part - a throughout reasonable choice, and the solo violin parts are played on the usual violin. The trumpet part in concerto no.2 is played on a natural trumpet without fingerholes.

The violoncello da spalla was also used by Suzuki in his second recording af the Brandenburgs for BIS featuring Dmitri Badiarov, Francois Fernandez and Ryo Terakado playing these. I can't stop thinking that these "spalla's" contribute to a much better balance in concerto no.3 and maybe even in concerto no.6.



Josquin13 said:


> My main gripe with Kuijken in Bach's choral music is that he doesn't always rehearse his ensemble thoroughly enough, and sometimes he lets questionable intonation slips go with his singers. Which is more noticeable in the one-voice-to-a-part choral singing, or OVPP performance practice that Kuijken follows. Although I've not heard his St. John Passion (and, again, he may have done this Passion more than once?):
> 
> 
> 
> . My guess is that you can do better here.


Yes, Kuijken recorded the SJP twice, the first (for DHM) is more conventional with more singers pr. part. It is without doubt this recording which is represented in the box in question.



Josquin13 said:


> I own Hengelbrock's Mass in B minor and find it very good, but again, it's not a first, second, third, or fourth choice for the "Great Mass", in my view. But, for some people it is.


To me among others it is.



Josquin13 said:


> Nor would Pinchas Zukerman likely be one of my top picks for recordings of Bach's Violin Concertos, either; though I admit that I've not heard him play these works. But I would expect that Zukerman's approach is too romantic in Bach.


Yes, romantic, but not as much as one could fear. However I can't really recommend it, in contrast to his very high spirited Brandenburg concerto recording (with the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra), which is interesting as supplementary listening .


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Don't know all these discs, but discs 23-29 are awesome recordings imho. 
Bernius is a very reliable interpreter of Bach's choral music (cd 14 is very good, too) and I have a weak spot for Kuijken's and Leonhard's approaches to the Passions: expressive in the 'music as speech' way, transparent and not too fast. I even think that many HIP-lovers would be quite surprised with the tempi of Kuijken's BWV 245. I myself prefer it faster, but I find this recording one of most interesting... Leonhardt uses boy sopranos in BWV 244, that might 'offend' some people.

(Note: since this is a DHM box, I'm convinced that the SJP BWV 245 is Kuijken's first recording of that piece.)


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Sorry to confuse you, Premont. (I knew that I wrote my previous post too hastily.) You have a polite way of saying that I got some things wrong. I'm sorry about that. I tend to write lengthy posts on TC, often off the top of my head, and no doubt I occasionally misremember or get something wrong (& at times, maybe a few things...). Fortunately, there are always others on TC that are able to correct my mistakes, & for that I'm grateful.

I see what I did now. My mistake was that I hastily misread Kuijken's booklet notes, and when he was speaking about his "first recording", I assumed that he was talking about his first recording with La Petite Bande, but he was actually speaking about his very first recording with Leonhardt, Bruggen, Bylsma, etc., on Seon in 1976/77. So, it was the earlier Seon recording where they used a "pseudo" trumpet.

I agree, my calling it a "pseudo authentic" trumpet was a confusing way of saying a natural horn with inauthentic finger holes. I was remembering Kuijken calling the trumpet a "pseudo baroque trumpet". It was a valveless horn--so authentic, but with holes and a modern mouthpiece, hence, inauthentic, & therefore, a "pseudo baroque trumpet", as Kuijken called it. Kuijken saw this trumpet as a "compromise instrument" on the first recording with Leonhardt & co. Thanks for making that clearer.

Therefore, on his second DHM recording in 1993/94 (or his first with La Petite Bande and the one in the box set!) Kuijken scored the part for a horn instead in the Brandenburg No. 2. Thanks for pointing out that the horn was a "corno da caccia", which is apparently a hunting horn that sounds an octave lower (played by Claude Maury). While on his third Accent recording (and second recording with La Petite Bande), Kuijken used a true valveless trumpet without holes and with an authentic mouthpiece in the Second Concerto (played by Jean-François Madeuf), and this was the very first recording of the Brandenburg Concertos to opt for this practice (followed later by Richard Egarr & others). So, I stand corrected.

Kuijken didn't have any of the violin part played on the violoncello da spalla or "shoulder cello" (or viola pomposo)? Evidently, I got that wrong, too. I think of Kuijken primarily as a violinist, so it gets confusing when he & other violinists play another instrument & the cello part no less. I checked, & Suzuki uses the "violoncello da spalla" in Brandenburg Concertos 2, 3, 4, & 6 (a recording that I don't know), while Kuijken is the only conductor to ever use the "shoulder cello" in all six Concertos, which I had remembered correctly, phew!

But I didn't get the 'basse de violin' part right, either. So, let me make sure that I understand this correctly: In Kuijken's DHM recording, the continuo part is played by a violone, or double bass throughout (& not in combination with the harpsichord?, which is normal practice?), but in Kuijken's Accent recording, it is played by a basse de violin, & occasionally in combination with the violoncello da spalla (since Kuijken doesn't believe the violone or double bass was Bach's intention). Therefore, the continuo part presumably has a lighter feel on Kuijken's Accent recording, since he is using the lighter, more transparent sounding "basse de violin" instead of a weightier, darker violone, or double bass... is that right?

Out of curiosity, which of Kuijken's three recordings of the Brandenburgs do you prefer? if you have a preference? I can't comment, because I don't know the DHM recording very well, having only heard it once or twice, and that was decades ago (back in the mid-1990s).

Thanks for clarifying about Kuijken's two recordings of the St. John Passion. Yes, I did vaguely recall that there was another earlier recording, but was too lazy to look it up, since I've not heard either one. 

I hope that I don't regularly make these kinds of mistakes in my posts? Obviously, I wrote my last post too quickly. & thanks for taking the time to correct my errors.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Thanks, Josquin, for your elaborate answer. Fortunately it's only rarely you have some details wrong. And I cannot truly say, that this never happens to myself too.

And first of all I appreciate the fact, that you have a far wider musical horizon than I do.

Concerning the violone/double bass question, the score displays an individual part in all six concertos, in Neue Bach Ausgabe's urtext score (Ed. Bärenreiter) called violone grosso (concerto no. 1) and just violone in concertos nos. 2 - 6. Among musicologists there have been some discussion as to whether a 16' or 8' instrument is meant. The heading seems to suggest, that a 16' instrument is meant in concerto no. 1 and an 8' instrument in the other concertos. The bass violin is an 8' instrument, the violone (usually a bass viola da gamba is meant) a 16' instrument. In concertos no. 1, 3 and 6 the continuo (cembalo) plays in unison with the violone. In concertos no. 2 and 4 it plays in unison with the violoncello (in concerto 4 with some elaborations), and in concerto no. 5 the cembalo obligato part is most of the time independent but sometimes plays as cembalo continuo in unison with the violoncello. Interestingly there were no individual cello parts in the earlier versions of concertos no. 1 (Sinfonia BWV 1046a) and no. 5 (BWV 1050a).

In Kuijken's DHM recording James Munro plays double bass (16' instrument) in all concertos. In Kuijken's Accent recording Ronan Kernoa plays bass violin (8' instrument) in all concertos. Interstingly Suzuki scores in his second recording concerto no. 1 for 16' violone and the other concertos for 8' violone without other specification, which is more to my liking.

My preference as to musical (interpretatory) reasons is the Leonhardt recording. For musicological reasons the Accent recording is IMO more interesting.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

GrosseFugue said:


> Could you Bach experts please tell me, based on the list shown, if this set is worth purchasing? Going for about $60 on Amazon. Of course, I know the big-hitters like Gould, Richter, Perahia & Galway, but Jan Vogler and Hengelbrock and Kuijken and others are unknown to me. Any insight appreciated! :tiphat: PS: You'll have to click on the pic to enlarge.
> 
> View attachment 157304


Don't worry about Kuijken. 
If you're OK with period instruments and a 'HIP' approach, then (almost) any recording of any Kuijken brother (Wieland, Sigiswald and Barthold) is a safe bet.


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## Chatellerault (Apr 4, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Also it's worth noting that, even if you like Harnoncourt's conducting, he uses boy sopranos, which is an acquired taste to say the least.


I didn't find any recording of Bach cantatas that I like better than Harnoncourt's. The instrumental articulation seems to have more life (though others like Herreweghe might be more historically correct, but I'm not such a specialist to be sure of that). And I think the voices from the boy sopranos are much more austere and religious than most sopranos. After listening, for exemple, to the boy soprano who recorded BWV 78 and 80 for Harnoncourt, other sopranos sound like opera to my ears.

I also recommend the Gould and Richter recordings on the piano, but later you should listen to the same works on the harpsichord, for example by G. Leonhardt or P. Hantai.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think the Harnoncourt disc with Bach cantatas in that box is not from the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt recordings but a much later recording from the 1990s or 2000s without boy singers.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Chatellerault said:


> . After listening, for exemple, to the boy soprano who recorded BWV 78 and 80 for Harnoncourt, other sopranos sound like opera to my ears.


I have similar problems and prefer generally sopranos with a boyish voice quality or boy sopranos for Bach.

What is your opinion of countertenors? Some of them (Jacobs, Buwalda) are IMO even more operatic sounding than many female altos.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Thanks Premont, for your further clarification (above) on Kuijken's Brandenburg Concerto recordings.

Chattelerault writes, "I didn't find any recording of Bach cantatas that I like better than Harnoncourt's. The instrumental articulation seems to have more life (though others like Herreweghe might be more historically correct, but I'm not such a specialist to be sure of that)"

Herreweghe isn't more historically correct. He favors a Bach choir that is much larger than what would have been used in Lutheran Germany in Bach's weekly Cantatas. After all, Bach didn't compose a single Cantata for a double choir, out of literally hundreds, except for one St. Michaelmas fragment whose authorship is disputed by some scholars (like Joshua Rifkin). Otherwise, all of the Cantatas that Bach composed were written for a single choir, which would have usually meant 4-8 singers in Bach's time, according to the original sources of the day (that I've read).

Unlike Gardiner, Herreweghe at least knows that he's using too many singers in his Bach Cantata recordings, historically speaking, but has said that he simply likes and prefers the larger sound of an oversized choir. So he does it for aesthetic reasons. While Gardiner claims that he's historically justified to use an oversized choir in the Cantatas (& elsewhere), which shows that he's not looked carefully enough into all the available historical evidence that strongly argues otherwise. Yet Gardiner gets away with it, more or less, due the extraordinary virtuosity of his Monteverdi Choir. (Though in recent years, his choir has ballooned to even larger sizes, and I don't think he gets away with anymore (as in his latest Mass in B minor, for example), & therefore, his earlier, remarkable Archiv recordings are generally to be preferred, IMO).

If the recordings in the box set are Harnoncourt's later DHM Bach Cantata recordings, as is apparently the case, and not his earlier recordings in the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt Cantata cycle, I can't offer an opinion about whether they are historically inspired performances, or not. (Even though I have heard them once, rather casually.) However, I will say this about Harnoncourt, he was a restless, & always searching musician, who had a tendency to grapple with music that he didn't feel he'd gotten right the first time around. And therefore, when he re-recorded works, it was most often because he had developed new ideas about how the music should be interpreted and played. & sometimes--though not always--his second (or third) recordings would show a significant improvement over his earlier recordings: Such as was the case, for example, with his second recording of Mozart's Requiem (on a DHM hybrid SACD), and his second recordings of Beethoven's 4th & 5th Symphonies (since Harnoncourt's first attempt at these two symphonies were the big duds of his earlier Beethoven cycle, and he obviously knew it, because his later interpretations changed and deepened considerably from the first attempts). On the other hand, it's also possible that his later DHM recordings contain Bach Cantatas that Leonhardt covered in their earlier cycle; in other words, Harnoncourt hadn't conducted or recorded them before...? (although I've not looked into this).

None of these Bach Cantata recordings would be my personal first choice, however. Although I do occasionally enjoy and like to listen to the sheer power of a larger sized choir & ensemble in certain Cantatas by Bach, such as Gardiner's recording of Bach's St. Michaelmas Cantata BWV 19, where the music at the opening represents the great battle in the sky between the Archangel Michael and Satan's reptilian hordes, and offers some of the greatest fugal writing I've ever heard!! (Not surprisingly, Gardiner's Monteverdi Choir is especially good here, as you might imagine.)

--Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists, Monterverdi Choir: Bach Cantata BWV 19:






However, if forced to choose, I prefer to hear Bach's incredibly complex contrapuntal writing here sung by a choir that is one-voice-to-a-part; because the smaller forces allow the listener to hear all of Bach's parts at the opening of BWV19 (going in multiple, different directions!) with a greater clarity. Which is mind blowing! Therefore, the best recording that I've heard of BWV 19 in that respect (and all others) comes from Eric Milnes and Montreal Baroque on an Atma hybrid SACD. Plus, it is no small matter that Milnes, throughout his cycle thus far, has consistently chosen his solo singers more suitably and IMO, more astutely than Gardiner (or Suzuki, Koopman, etc.). Moreover, Milnes OVPP recordings of Bach Cantatas are significantly better rehearsed and more insightful than Kuijken's OVPP recordings of the same. In fact, there's no contest between them, to my ears. However, Milnes is an American working in Montreal, and not British or Dutch or even European, so he doesn't get the kind of attention (or accolades) that he & his fine Montreal musicians deserve from the British classical rags, especially during their annual year end awards. Nevertheless, for my money, Milnes is the finest Bach conductor today, and Montreal Baroque is one of the best period bands (right up there with the Freiburger Barockorchester).

--Mllnes, Montreal Baroque, Bach Cantata BWV 19, with the brilliant fugal opening movement performed OVPP:






By the way, another excellent Bach conductor that gets underrated today in the Cantatas is Philippe Pierlot, IMO, with the Ricercar Consort:

--Pierlot, Ricercar Consort, Bach Cantata BWV 4: 



--Pierlot, Ricercar Consort, Bach Cantata BWV 106 "Actus Tragicus": 



--Pierlot, Ricercar Consort, Bach Magnificat: 




--I've also liked Konrad Junghänel & Cantus Cölln in Cantatas BWV 4 & 106, too:






& neither Milnes, Pierlot, or Junghänel's OVPP Bach Cantata recordings (nor Gardiner's St. Michaelmas Cantatas) are included this set, so if you're trying to build an exceptionally fine Bach collection... well, you know where I stand...

Is the original poster even still reading this thread?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I must say that I don't understand why the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt cantatas have such a following among some Bachians. Before I read any reviews on them, I figured that the consensus was they were roughshod pioneering recordings that were mostly a noble failure. To me, it's not just the boy sopranos but Harnoncourt's often bizarre conducting mannerisms, something that mars almost all of his recordings for me (Leonhardt is better, sometimes slower), the very scrappy and heterogeneous choral singing, and the sour, sometimes out-of-tune sound of the orchestra. I give immense credit to Harnoncourt and Leonhardt for sticking with the cycle and introducing many people to these wondrous works, but overall I just don't think the results work. However, it must be admitted that his three adult soloists - von Egmond, Equiluz, and Esswood - are among the finest Bach singers of their time, and their interpretations are all close to ideal for my ears. I treasure the recordings of that quasi-song-cycle BWV 157 by von Egmond and Equiluz, Esswood's lovely BWV 54, and one recording where a female soloist is used - Barbara Bonney in BWV 199. As for the boy soloists, I find them to be fundamentally unable to _interpret_ the music in all its profound "adult" insights about death, faith, sorrow, and hope; as well as so often sounding overstrained by the demands of the music, gasping for air in mid-phrase. It actually makes you marvel at the extremely talented child singers that Bach must have had in Leipzig - either that or he would have been shaking his head every week at how these admirable but unequipped boys butchered his music. Great Bach sopranos like Elly Ameling, Carolyn Sampson, Barbara Bonney, Sandrine Piau, and Helen Donath can conjure up "white", innocent tones while conveying the music in much more sensitive terms with infinitely greater technique. And besides, just because Bach had to deal with an arcane rule concerning gender in church, does that mean that he would have always preferred boy sopranos? I doubt it.

ETA: I think that these discussions are excellent and informative, but perhaps they would better had in a "General Bach Discussion" type thread rather than diverting from the OP's specific requests? I have actually been thinking of starting such a thread myself since I am an unabashed Bachian who has a deep fascination with recordings of his music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

"You dare to criticize my style?"


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^Imagine how those boys felt working with him, especially if he flashed that face at them - seems straight out of an adolescent's nightmares.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Imagine how those boys felt working with him, especially if he flashed that face at them!


My exact thoughts! His facial expressions are hilarious for the rest of us.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Those pictures are funny. They actually reflect the extent to which Harnoncourt's performances could be full of distortions and over emphasized accents. His cycle of Mozart choral works drove me mad in that regard. I regretted buying it. But fortunately that's not the last word on Harnoncourt. He did do some very good recordings over his long career... even though I'd be the first to agree with the criticisms.


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