# Conductors



## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

As been stated before by me - newbie to Classical music (though I am a quick study) and I apologize if this particular subject has been done (or done to death) before. Currently I am learning about various comductors - the legends mainly and what music they are best for.

Currently my favorites I've had a chance to experience at least a couple of recordings with so far include:

Karajan
Bernstein
Harnoncourt
Kleiber
Dorati

I would be interested in other's feedback on what conductors they like - and for which composers. For example - due to recommendations from these forums I bought Klieber's Beethoven 5 & 7 (on DG with the Vienna Philharmonica) and absolutely love it and has far outstripped any other recordings I've heard.

So I am basically hoping to glean further recommendations and directions to look and research in for future purchases - especially with the sale coming in May at Barnes and Noble (buy 2 get 1 free classical CD's).

Thanks in advance for your input!


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

My favorites include Fritz Reiner, Georg Solti, Rafael Kubelik who I once saw conduct the San Francisco Symphony in the complete "Ma Vlast" by Smetana, and a more recent conducter Donald Runnicles. He did a really good Mahler 5th with the Dallas Symphony. My friend who is assistant concertmaster of the Dallas Symphony told me he thought the best was Valery Gergiev and my friend played in the New York Philharmonic under Bernstein as well as many other conducters before going to Dallas. I also really enjoyed Ricardo Chailly. I saw him conduct the Royal Concertgebouw in New York when they played the best Brahms 2nd Symphony possible. I have witnessed great performances of all of the above. I have also purchased recordings conducted by most of them.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

Regarding Karajan. He made the BPO a world leader, he was charismatic and produced the rich string section sound that the BPO became loved for he also did a lot of work with the VPO, his championing of Anne Sophie Mutter must have been a great boost to her career, If you get the chance have a listen to the CD : Mendelssohn-Bruch Violin Concertos with Mutter on Violin recorded in 1981 a reissue was DG 400-031-2 it may have been reissued again by now!


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

SamGuss, you might also want to check some of the older conductors (that is, if you don't mind mediocre sound quality), like:

Wilhelm Furtwängler
Arturo Toscanini
Fritz Reiner

Also, check out Marriner/Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, especially for their Baroque performances.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

I like different conductors for different reasons,

Karajan for his work with the BPO and generally having top-rate peformances of most of the hardcore reportoire.

Otto Klemperer for his attention to orchestral balance and detail. (And for a unique approach to Beethoven)  

Eugen Jochum for beautifully crafted performances of, again, most of the reportoire (especially Bruckner and Haydn)

Bernstein for his attempt to bring some of the more fringe composers, for ex. Mahler to mass attention.

Others I like are Simon Rattle, Nicholas Harnoncourt, Sir Colin Davis and Celibidache for his sheer cantankerous stand against commercialism in Music.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Lots of interesting observations here!

I suppose the best-represented conductors in my collection are Karajan and Solti. That having been said, let me respond to the following...

1) Fritz Reiner stereo CDs do NOT have a "mediocre sound." (I don't think their sonics deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Furtwängler or Toscanini, where you're guaranteed a mono recording.)

2) Mahler, of course, is fringe repertoire no more. I understand that the conventional wisdom is that Bernstein played a huge role in its advocacy... but let's just say that reasonable minds can disagree on the extent and historical importance of that advocacy.

3) Furtwängler was, for me, an acquired taste. I wouldn't recommend it in the early days of building a collection. (If you can find someone [e.g.: a library] to loan you Furtwängler, perhaps sample a little, on a cost-free basis, and make up your own mind.)

4) For core mid-Romantic repertoire, Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra recordings are almost uniformly _grotesquely_ underrated [in my dilettente opinion, of course.]. Also, whenever you find them, they will almost certainly be value-priced.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

David C Coleman said:


> Bernstein for his attempt to bring some of the more fringe composers, for ex. Mahler to mass attention.


Mahler was a fringe composer?!


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

opus67 said:


> Mahler was a fringe composer?!


Yes, I think so, (emphasize WAS). Compared to say Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and so forth... Wasn't there a time when somebody said, the public will get over the "phase" of Mahler..Well thankfully, together with Bruckner we haven't!...


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## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

Thank you all for your input and suggestions - I will be definately checking out many of these!


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

David C Coleman said:


> Yes, I think so, (emphasize WAS). Compared to say Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and so forth... Wasn't there a time when somebody said, the public will get over the "phase" of Mahler..Well thankfully, together with Bruckner we haven't!...


When you think about, it wasn't all that bad.  *Bach* (BACH!) was forgotten after his death for nearly a century, until young Mendelssohn came along.

_________________________________________

I apologise for the digression, SamGuss.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> 3) Furtwängler was, for me, an acquired taste. I wouldn't recommend it in the early days of building a collection. (If you can find someone [e.g.: a library] to loan you Furtwängler, perhaps sample a little, on a cost-free basis, and make up your own mind.)
> )


Interesting, Chi. I first heard Wagner and both Beethoven and Bruckner's 9th on WF recordings. These were the recordings that really got me into classical music (or, for any Laputans out there, "Western Art Music").

Also, I wasn't implying Fritz Reiner's recordings to have "mediocre" sound... that was more directed at WF and Toscanini. It's just that many listeners like audiophile-quality sound... and thus might turn away even from Reiner's stereo recordings.


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## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm not a true audiophile in the sense of technology, but do like to listen to the best of the best. I'm not for mono recordings though (at least not at the moment) all that much though. As long as it is in stereo and I can get it on CD - I am good to go.


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## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> 4) For core mid-Romantic repertoire, Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra recordings are almost uniformly _grotesquely_ underrated [in my dilettente opinion, of course.]. Also, whenever you find them, they will almost certainly be value-priced.


Thanks for your input on these. I've flagged the following for possible buys in the near future based on your suggestion here. Any fine tuning?

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=94844

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=9532

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=52115

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=62837 - I think I saw you recommend this on another thread?

These seemed like an incredible deal:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=136206

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=169507


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

Some really good conductors mentioned here. Some of the (other) conductors to whom I remain loyal include:

Bruno Walter (par. Brahms and Beethoven's early symphonies)
Herbert Blomstedt (par. Carl Nielsen)
Michael Tilson Thomas (variety)
Claudio Abbado (variety)
Esa-Pekka Salonen (variety)
Günter Wand (par. Bruckner and Schumann)


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Reiner's recordings of the music of Richard Strauss are amazing.

Of course, Arturo Toscanini's traversals of Beethoven were/are legendary (and you can get them from Amazon for just $20 for all nine).

Bernstein's Mahler is rather polarized, but I love it.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I recently noticed that the Ormandy/Philadelphia _Swan Lake_ extended excerpts were among the "recommended recordings" in the _NPR Guide_. So- one of my favorites has some well-distributed advocacy.

The Mendelssohn/Tchaikovsky recording cited was how I was introduced to those pieces. I had that disc back in the Age of Vinyl. Isaac Stern is on the short list of great violinists of the previous century. Henry Roth (in Great Violinists in Performance) had good things to say about this pairing.

I don't have experience with the remaining recordings. I would, however, counsel caution regarding that 4-disc Ormandy set, which consists of war-time and post-war mono material.


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## Isola (Mar 26, 2008)

On DVDs I like Karajan the best, followed by Bernstein. Live concerts I've seen Sir Collin Davis, Charles Dutoit, Simon Rattle (I had no idea he had so much facial expression while conducting since we saw his back only, until I bought his Mahler 5 DVD), and Valery Gergiev, who, I must say has become my current favourite conductor.


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

Two conductors whose names I haven't seen come up are Neema Jarvi who has a large number of recordings often of lesser heard music which are very well played and a man who died quite young a number of years ago. Istvan Kertesz would have been one of the greatest if he had not drowned in the Mediterenean Sea along the coast of Israel years ago. From time to time I hear recordings of works he conducted played on the radio.


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## anon2k2 (Dec 18, 2007)

Some of the contemporary conductors for whom I have a special affinity are:

Colin Davis (especially Sibelius)
Riccardo Chailly (especially Bruckner)
Gerard Schwarz (Diamond, Piston, Hanson)

Of those who are no longer with us on Earth:

Sinopoli, Boult, Klemperer, Kleiber, Jochum


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

I have some Cds by the Seattle Symphony with the music of Howard Hanson conducted by Gerard Schwarz as well as others with Piston and Diamond. I have had a fondness for American composers since my teens. Naxos has a series of American classics which also include works by Paul Creston, Eliott Carter, and Roy Harris. I had the good fortune to attend concerts where Aaron Copland conducted his own music several times and recordings conducted by him are also available.


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## Ludovyk (Apr 20, 2008)

I also vote for Carlos Kleiber: everything that he did is wonderful! I had the fortune of seeing him in three of his scarce concerts, which count among the deepest musical impressions of my life. His father, Erich Kleiber, is also one of the most important conductors of his century: he left us some unrivalled opera recordings (Figaro and Rosenkavalier), his high voltage Beethoven, his stylish Mozart, his quite personal manner of rendering the Strauss waltzes...

Celibidache... the other giant, although not to all tastes! He was a magician of the sound. At least, for me he is the very first option in Bruckner, French music, some Russians (I think I have not yet recovered from the commotion his Tchaikovski's Fifth left on me, splendid Sixth as welll) and full coloured works (Sheherezade).

Furtwängler, Toscanini, Klemperer, Karajan, Mitropoulos, Horenstein, Giulini, Walter.. all of them names of a golden era that will never return.


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## xunvala (Jun 25, 2008)

Zubin Mehta, Georg Solti.

If you want, as you say, to read up on the "legends", I think Toscanini & Furtwangler are a must.


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## BAWIG05 (May 14, 2008)

15 (or 16) Great Conductors and why I like them:

1. Leopold Stokowski: I think his transcriptions are a riot, but when he stayed faithful to the score, he could be pretty exciting.

2. Gunter Wand: I love his Bruckner, but his Beethoven 9th was really great too.

3. Herbert Blomstedt: Beethoven cycle with Dresden Staatskapelle, and his terrific work in San Francisco (admirably continued by M. Tilson Thomas)

4. Otto Klemperer: His Beethovn and Brahms, along with surprises like Dvorak and Mendelssohn

5. Carlos Kleiber: His Beethoven 5th, obviously. I love his New Years concerts and Brahms as well.

6. Eugene Ormandy: Underrated was posted earlier in the thread, and is the understatement of the classical music world. Simply oustanding playing of all music. Possibly one of the best accompnimists the musical world produced.

7. George Szell: Equally exciting even oustide of Cleveland, his performances in Europe testify to a diverse conductor who could even go as far as Handel.

8. Herbert v. Karajan: Not my favorite, but god could he coax some beautiful sounds. An outstanding Opera and Lied conductor as well.

9. Mstlav Rostropovich: His knowledge of Russian music was undisputed, and his success on the podium showed what an outstanding all-around musician he was.

10. Fritz Reiner: If I wasn't so poor, I'm almost certain I could find better speakers. And If I had better speakers, I could blow off the roof of my home with "The Pines of Rome" which has the musical intensity of a small bomb. 

11. Charles Munch: Mainly known for French music (I could also blow off the roof with the "Organ Symphony"), he was also flexible, conducting a fiery Beethoven 9th, and making Mendelssohn's Reformation Symphony interesting.

12. Aaron Copland/Igor Stravinsky: Two musical giants who didn't always know how to get the results they wanted on the podium. So Copland's recordings in particular can come off as a little dull. Still, there are many things to cherish with both men.

13. Paul Paray: The man who rescued the Detroit Symphony and put Mercury Living Presence on the map. His recordings of French music with artists such as Dupre and Fourrier and simply the best. 

14. Rafel Kubelik: One of the few conductors to record the Beethoven 9 with nine different orchestras, he also championed 20th Century music and was a terrific partner with soloists.

15. John Willams- I'll get shot for this I'm sure, but Williams understanding of human emotion (heroism, fear, celebration) has been key to every film score from Jaws to Harry Potter. His ability to translate his musical ideas to the podium is something even Copland and Stravinsky failed to master as well. Therefore, Williams is a personal favorite, and I believe, a fitting end to my list.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I'm sure this recommendation will not go unnoticed:

Osmo Vänskä is really starting to come out into the "mainstream" (though I'm ashamed to say it; his Sibelius is surely among if not the best!) classical music; he has recently recorded the Beethoven cycle with the Minnesota Orchestra, of which he is now the director. Before he went to MN, he directed the Lahti Symphony Orchestra, with which he made his legendary Sibelius recordings, as well as several other Finnish (and other Nordic) composers such as Rautavaara, Kalevi Aho, and Kajanus. He is a genuinely electrifying conductor to listen to; I may be so bold as to compare him (favorably!) to Arturo Toscanini and Fritz Reiner, yet not as heartless as their two styles often are called.

I'll just shut up now; this is already the longest single recommendation on this thread (but well worth it!!!).


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

BAWIG05 said:


> 2. Gunter Wand: I love his Bruckner, but his Beethoven 9th was really great too.


I love Wand's Bruckner. You should hear him conducting Schumann, as well (perhaps after hearing Karajan, who is much more prolific)



BAWIG05 said:


> 3. Herbert Blomstedt: Beethoven cycle with Dresden Staatskapelle, and his terrific work in San Francisco (admirably continued by M. Tilson Thomas)


I have never heard that cycle...[now I have a sudden urge to get it]. Blomstedt's Nielsen, however, overwhelmingly overshadows every other such recording in existence.

Conductors directing works written by their own nationals may not always be the "best" performance according to most people. Although, in some cases, it may be.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Rondo said:


> Conductors directing works written by their own nationals may not always be the "best" performance according to most people. Although, in some cases, it may be.


I've heard that's true of English composers/conductors. They apparently are very boring... Though I think the Finns are the best conductors of Sibelius by far. Everybody else makes it sound less Sibelian.


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## Ludovyk (Apr 20, 2008)

BAWIG05 said:


> Paul Paray: The man who rescued the Detroit Symphony and put Mercury Living Presence on the map. His recordings of French music with artists such as Dupre and Fourrier and simply the best.


I'm very curious about this conductor.. The only thing of his I've ever listened to is a glowing live performance (1940) of Till Eulenspiegel, with the Concertgebouw.


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## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

It's been a couple of months since I started this thread and here is where I stand with some conductors at this point.

*Herbert von Karajan:*

I like this guy. He is one of my "go to" conductors and so far, I haven't had any let downs. There are some composers I prefer other conductors for, but he is one of my main conductors I enjoy. In particular I enjoy his Dvorak, Beethoven, Ravel, Mussorsky and even his Vilvaldi.

*Leonard Bernstein:*

Another of my "go to" conductors and I enjoy most of his Mahler, Shostakovich and his Beethoven 9th.

*Nickolaus Harnoncourt:*

I only have one of his works: Dvorak No. 9 but this particular CD was such a momentum driver for my love of classical music that I still rank him high on the list, despite only having heard this one piece by him (well and Water Goblin).

*Erich and Carlos Kleiber:*

I am hard pressed who does a better Beethoven 5. Awesome.

*Kurt Massur:*

His Shostakovich's are inspirational.

*Karl Bohm:*

Espoecially his Bruckner but also his Beethoven, especially his Beethoven 4th.

*Yoel Levi and George Szell:*

Go-to conductors if I just can't figure out which conductor to go with, I'll seek these guys out. Good stuff consistantly.

*Rafael Kubelik:*

OUTSTANDING. Can't say it clearer than that


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Regarding Karajan: I've noticed that, on YouTube (Yes, I know it's a little tacky!) that the comments section seem to be full of people who are, shall we be polite, new or have not too much appreciation of classical music. 
This has both things for and against: You could say that K has brought classical music to the attention of the masses, which is a good thing. Or you could say that he has brought a certain cheapness to the art, depending on which way you look at it..


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

Rather than compile a list of "favourite" musicians, be they conductors, pianists or whatever, based on a single performance or their interpretation of one composer's work, I tend to base my preferences on what I know or can gather about the artistes attitude and approach to music, be it composer specific or in general terms.
Karajan for instance, towards the end of his career, became more and more obsessed with the idea of preserving the visual performance for posterity rather than the sound. Yes, he did do wonderful things with and for the BPO whilst he was at the helm, but in my opinion (NB) I suspect he was driven more by ego than any other factor.
I can't help noticing the number of "older generation" conductors mentioned in this thread and surely there is a conclusion to be drawn from that fact. I am old enough to look back over the last 40 some years and recall the conductors who have stayed the course and those who, after much initial fanfare, fell by the wayside. Back in the 1980's there appeared a number of conductors (some names appearing in this thread), who would quite happily have conducted lightning had their recording companies promised the necessary amount of publicity and exposure. For a couple of years or so they were at the forefront, recording anything and everything, but to fall back on a cliche, where are they now. They may be still conducting, but what happened to take them out of the first (sometimes even second) rank. 
What then is so special about the likes of Klemperer, Bohm, Jochum and many others too numerous to list, whose careers in many cases spanned over 50 years. They must all have been guilty at some time of giving a lacklustre performance or making a recording that was less than well received by the critics, but some are still with us giving their best and those that are no longer here would be gratified to see their recordings still selling.
Klemperer's Beethoven or Solti's Wagner may not be to everyone's taste but, at the end of the day, their reputation and standing is based very firmly, NOT on an individual performance or recording which happens to suit the fashion of the day, but rather on a lifetime of dedication, craftsmanship and continuous learning.
I think it is wrong to base one's judgement of a conductor on a single performance, we all have good days and bad days whatever we do. I recall in the 1980's, DG released Carlos Kleibers Beethoven 5 and the plaudits were poured on him, similarly his later recording of the 7th. They may have been exceptional performances, but given the scant amount of time (unlike his father) that he spends in the studio or on the podium, I think it very unfair that he is regarded as great conductor purely on the basis of less than a handful of performances. On the other side of the coin are musicians such as Charles Mackerras and Colin Davis, both in their 80's, both performing and recording and with a lifetime of experience who have perhaps recieved only a fraction of the accolades doled out for a mere 2 recordings.
Quick question for World Violist: You say "Apparently English conductors are very boring". The word "apparently" suggests to me that you haven't really listened to English conductors but are basing an implied criticism on either hearsay or bias. Perhaps you could qualify the statement to give your comment some weight. It would also be interesting to see your definition of boring when applied to a conductor.


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

PS. If anyone wants a very good insight into conductors past and present, I suggest trying "The Maestro Myth" by Norman Lebrecht. An excellent read, interestingly sub-titled "Great Conductors in Pursuit of Power".


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

There two very good, newer generation conductors that are around (or at least I enjoy listening to): Valery Gergiev and Sir Simon Rattle..


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Mayerl said:


> PS. If anyone wants a very good insight into conductors past and present, I suggest trying "The Maestro Myth" by Norman Lebrecht. An excellent read, interestingly sub-titled "Great Conductors in Pursuit of Power".


I think that what I _didn't_ like about this book outweighed what I did like about it.

I try not to be a reflexive "_hate_-uh" of all things Lebrecht. [Other boards are populated with people who are...] Before I unload _all_ my pent-up observations, I'd like to hear why some have judged this book worth recommending.

I will, however, start with one obvious criticism... the late Giuseppe Sinopoli did NOT deserve the relentless savaging that he received in those pages.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Mayerl said:


> Quick question for World Violist: You say "Apparently English conductors are very boring". The word "apparently" suggests to me that you haven't really listened to English conductors but are basing an implied criticism on either hearsay or bias. Perhaps you could qualify the statement to give your comment some weight. It would also be interesting to see your definition of boring when applied to a conductor.


I can't believe I wrote that... shoot... oh well, we're all human, I suppose. That was absurdly stupid of me.

I suppose "boring" applied to a conductor is a rather complex state, but I generally think that a lack of bringing motion into the music or bad musicians in the orchestra or just a bad interpretation might constitute "boring." Thus people can easily dislike a conductor who obviously isn't boring (Bernstein).



David C Coleman said:


> Regarding Karajan: I've noticed that, on YouTube (Yes, I know it's a little tacky!) that the comments section seem to be full of people who are, shall we be polite, new or have not too much appreciation of classical music.
> This has both things for and against: You could say that K has brought classical music to the attention of the masses, which is a good thing. Or you could say that he has brought a certain cheapness to the art, depending on which way you look at it..


I tend not to like Karajan quite as much as other people. I've heard his Brahms symphonies and while I do like them, they sound great and all, but I just don't see real greatness in them. They sound very, I don't know, shallow, maybe? Sterile, to be sure. He was, I think, better in the 1960's and such; his Tchaikovsky from that time is downright thrilling.

As to his bringing classical music to the masses... are we forgetting Leonard Bernstein??? He probably did more to bring music to the masses than any other conductor. Just my opinion, but you can't ignore the Young People's Concerts, all these books and such, which really brought classical music as close to the mainstream as it's ever been.


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

World Violist
Thanks for the response, not an easy question to answer. I think the trap we all fall into at some time or other is to apply the word boring to the visual aspect of a conductors performance. I would not call Simon Rattle boring to watch but how much, I wonder, of his facial expressions and bodily gyrations actually contribute to the overall interpretation. Conversely, Richard Strauss stood almost motionless on the podium, he used a small stick, he had an almost indiscernible beat and his left arm rarely left his side but he could make an orchestra give their best. Nothing like as interesting (?) as watching Rattle or any number of others but the man got a result.
On the subject of Bernstein, (and have you noticed that since his death, more and more people are referring to him as Lenny as if they had known him all their lives), I will admit to not liking most of his compositions and a lot of his interpretations. I will, however, agree with you wholeheartedly that in making music available and accessible he stands second to non. His talents as a communicator equalled those he possessed as a musician.
Chi town Philly, can I just make the observation that it was not Norman Lebrecht "savaging" Sinopoli, he was merely documenting the comments and criticisms of others. As to whether or not those were justified depends purely and simply on liking or not liking Sinopoli's musicianship. Put yourself on any creative arts podium and you become fair game for someone to have a go at knocking you off.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

World Violist said:


> As to his bringing classical music to the masses... are we forgetting Leonard Bernstein??? He probably did more to bring music to the masses than any other conductor. Just my opinion, but you can't ignore the Young People's Concerts, all these books and such, which really brought classical music as close to the mainstream as it's ever been.


No, No. Of course I didn't forget about Lenny. I was just referring to peoples attitude toward Karajan.
I too think K was a little overrated. Because everyone seemed to like his Beethoven (I actually prefer Otto Klemperer). They naturally assumed that he was fantastic at everything. He was a pretty good conductor, with a huge repertoire. But sometimes his approach was a little, like you said, sterile, and samey: lets just get the job done so to speak. I thought his best composers were Bruckner and Wagner..


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

Say what you like about Karajan, but he certainly made a lot of money for DGG and I think it's they who we have to blame for Karajan's (to my mind) exagerated reputation. I can recall the days when I used to receive DG catalogues on a regular basis and I cannot bring to mind a single LP sleeve which didn't bear a full size picture of him with his name featuring much, much larger than that of the composer.
Was he all that great a musician or the product of firstly, the huge amount of fuss generated when Walter Legge smuggled him out of Vienna in the months follwing the end of WW2, and secondly DG's huge publicity machine. He is credited with being responsible for the "Berlin sound". Given the the BPO has been at the very front rank for many, many years, I wonder that they didn't take great offence at one man taking the credit for the sound they produce.
I shall fall back on my favourite analogy of "The King's New Clothes"


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Karajan is an enigma to me... Several of his interpretations are very intense (his Tchaikovsky Sixth symphony I believe to be the best I've heard yet), but I always found that the sound of the Berliners almost got bland in later years (I could site one of Karajan's Brahms cycle recordings, I believe from the 70's?), as seemed to happen to his interpretation as well (Although if what I've heard about his Mahler 9th is anything to go by, he had his moments of glory).

I suppose one of the main reasons in my mind that von Karajan is so wildly famous is that he was the main conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic for so many decades. Let's face it: he was the glory of Germany and he stayed there. And then even after he left Berlin he went straight off to Vienna. Add that to the whole DG thing and you have a money-making powerhouse before you even begin to consider musicality, which I feel inadequate to comment anymore on because I haven't heard much other von Karajan recordings...


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm glad I waited a day before answering... it allowed me to disengage the main cogs of my emotion on this issue.


Mayerl said:


> Chi town Philly, can I just make the observation that it was not Norman Lebrecht "savaging" Sinopoli, he was merely documenting the comments and criticisms of others. As to whether or not those were justified depends purely and simply on liking or not liking Sinopoli's musicianship. Put yourself on any creative arts podium and you become fair game for someone to have a go at knocking you off.


Perhaps it's the fact that Sinopoli recorded my "desert-island-choice" Bruckner 5 with Dresden that made me a little defensive on his behalf. I'm certainly in no position to judge Sinopoli's effectiveness (or lack thereof) as a Music Director. Perhaps we could even agree that an excellent leader for recordings does not necessarily make for a fine Music Director (c.f.: Mehta, C. Kleiber). However, since Sinopoli contributed to of a couple of handfuls of first-rank recordings, I find it difficult to be summarily dismissive of his musicianship.

I understand your point about Lebrecht as "messenger," but can we at least agree that reasonable minds can disagree on the extent of Sinopoli's gifts... and if said messenger relays a negative-to-positive comment ratio of about 10 to 1 against, hopefully I won't be blamed for suspecting that there was an agenda involved.


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

Chi - Point very well made and taken, especially your comment that an excellent recording does not necessarily make the executor uniformly excellent.
I have been a fan of Mr Lebrecht for a long time for the simple reason that he successfully avoids the sycophancy that seems to be rife in the classical music business. For example, for far too many years people were afraid to offer even the mildest criticism of Karajan. (I won't dwell on the way Levine sucked up to him when he thought there was a chance he might get the BPO). 
-"but can we at least agree that reasonable minds can disagree on the extent of Sinopoli's gifts... " Of course we can
Regards
David


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

In defense of British conductors. *Hogwood, Norrington, Gardiner.*

Nothing has surpassed Hogwood's Mozart symphony cycle. It caused a huge fuss at the time, the orchestra itself went on strike (I kid you not) he split the violins left and right so you can hear Mozart bouncing material back and forth in its full glory, and used a keyboard to fill in the bare passages, making sense of them for the first time in 200 years.

Norrington, bless his socks, is engaged this moment in controversy at the London Proms, having performed Elgar 1 without vibrato (with a German orchestra no less  ), and promises the same at the Last Night. Some people are so angry about it (Elgar, poor fella, is a totem of the British political right and they view Norrington as a dangerous communist) that there could be protests in the concert hall on 13th Sept.

Eliot Gardiner is at the height of his powers having reached vol. 26 of his Bach Cantata cycle. He produced a performance of the St John Passion last Sunday which brought the house down and still had time, at the afternoon talk, to compare the crucifixion of Christ to the treatment of Guantanamo Bay inmates, causing sharp intakes of breath from Yanks in the audience:

"It [the St John Passion] has resonances with Guantanamo Bay and all sorts of tortures in our own society."

So there's plenty of life in British conductors.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

purple99 said:


> Nothing has surpassed Hogwood's Mozart symphony cycle. It caused a huge fuss at the time... he split the violins left and right so you can hear Mozart bouncing material back and forth in its full glory


Curious when this project took place... Georg Tinter did the same thing in his Bruckner cycle in the early days of Naxos.


purple99 said:


> Eliot Gardiner... still had time, at the afternoon talk, to compare the crucifixion of Christ to the treatment of Guantanamo Bay inmates, causing sharp intakes of breath from Yanks in the audience:
> 
> "It [the St John Passion] has resonances with Guantanamo Bay and all sorts of tortures in our own society."
> 
> So there's plenty of life in British conductors.


Plenty of life- yup... no doubt. More life than sense, I'd say.


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Curious when this project took place... Georg Tinter did the same thing in his Bruckner cycle in the early days of Naxos.


When did the modern tradition of banking the fiddles together come about? My understanding is that many of the great European and US orchestras have avoided avoided it. For example, I heard Mahler 5 at the Proms last week played by the Gürzenich Orchestra. They were set out (roughly) like this and the effect was electric.

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Chi_town/Philly said:


> More life than sense, I'd say.


I admire the old boy for putting his money where his mouth is and linking the piece to modern day events. Besides, it was funny watching the expressions on the Americans' faces. They'd come for high art and got a lefty political lecture instead.


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

The only question I would ask about the broadcast of Gardiner's Passion is who the hell dressed him and were those sleeves meant to be hi-viz for the benefit of the orchestra??


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## purple99 (Apr 8, 2008)

Mayerl said:


> were those sleeves meant to be hi-viz for the benefit of the orchestra??


He wore them in solidarity with Guantanamo Bay inmates in their day-glo jump suits. 

What did you think of the performance and Gardiner's conducting style? Did you notice how in some of the arias he dropped his hands to his sides and stood quietly listening, leaving them to it, as the piece descended into chamber music? Of course they did what was agreed at rehearsals so he remained in charge - he has a reputation as a hard task-master - but many conductors' egos would not have let them stop waving their arms about.


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation, thought there had to be a reason for something like that. Not favouring Baroque and before, especially choral works, I must admit I don't feel qualified to pass any comment on the performance itself but yes, I did notice that from time to time he just left them to it. Good for him.
Can't quite get along with bringing political issues into the concert hall though. Mark Elder, a conductor I much admire, has a tendency to do the same. Slightly unfair, I think, to put your own views in such a way. At a political meeting you can walk out if you don't like what's being said, but in the RAH when you've come to hear Bach you ain't got a lot of choice.


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## kiwipolish (May 2, 2008)

I am surprised no one mentioned Ferenc Fricsay and Sergiu Celibidache. 

Fricsay died quite young in 1963, but left a lot of recordings from his last years, and that is still audible quality today.

Celibidache, the extravagant genius, refused to make any recordings. After his death in 1996, his family released publication rights for many of his radio concerts. His Bruckner symphonies offer both a perfect sound quality and a new light on the music of the Austrian composer.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

David C Coleman said:


> Regarding Karajan: I've noticed that, on YouTube (Yes, I know it's a little tacky!) that the comments section seem to be full of people who are, shall we be polite, new or have not too much appreciation of classical music.
> This has both things for and against: You could say that K has brought classical music to the attention of the masses, which is a good thing. Or you could say that he has brought a certain cheapness to the art, depending on which way you look at it..


Yes, but let's face it - a lot of the negativity about Karajan from the 'specialists' has to do with snobism IMO. He's popular - even with casual fans - and so he's suspect in the eyes of connoisseurs who like the idea that they know something more than the ordinary guy/gal on the street. I think he was a fine conductor. Not everything he's ever done is superwonderful, but you can say that about the other greats as well. But his best ranks with the best of anybody else IMO.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Karajan and Toscanini are the greatest conductors of our century. Beethoven is the greatest conductor of all time.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

airad2 said:


> Karajan and Toscanini are the greatest conductors of our century. Beethoven is the greatest conductor of all time.


Firstly, Toscanini was not primarily 20th century; he was essentially part of the generation of the late 1800's. Secondly: have you _heard_ Beethoven conduct?


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## bertalm (Sep 10, 2008)

Claudio Abbado
Richard Strauss


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## bertalm (Sep 10, 2008)

Beethoven ? Have you really seen him conduct to assess ?


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## bertalm (Sep 10, 2008)

I once read that the reason for Karajan conducting with his eyes shut was because he regarded himself as very handsome and all old musicians in the orchestra as very ugly.


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## BAWIG05 (May 14, 2008)

This is really unlikely about Karajan, and probably untrue


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## bertalm (Sep 10, 2008)

BAWIG05: "This is really unlikely about Karajan, and probably untrue"
Maybe, but neither you or me knew Karajan personally, or did you? It is easy (and naive) to see celebreties as better people than average.


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## elliot (Dec 1, 2008)

Pierre Boulez has been left of off the list!
Boulez is an extremely important interpreter of late 19th century and early-mid 20th century repertoire. Wozzeck, the Mahler symphonies, the complete Webern (once on sony once on DGG). Janacek, Debussy, Messiaen, Berlioz, the list goes on. Great stuff.


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