# Bach: Das wohltemperierte Klavier (The Well-Tempered Clavier), BWV 846-893



## science

This is one of Bach's best-known works, and wikipedia has an excellent article about it, including links to articles about several of the individual prelude and fugues.

Well, what do you think? Do you love this work? If so, why?

Feel free, of course, to promote your favorite recordings!


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## jegreenwood

Suggest you do a search for WTC over the entire forum. My search returned over 15 threads with Tempered in the title.


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## Bulldog

The WTC is my favorite Bach work which makes it my favorite music in the world. Although I usually listen to it from a macro perspective, I sometimes just listen to 96 separate pieces of music. At a minimum, each piece is a gem. When I add it all up, Bach has given me the full scope of the human condition from the depths of despair to the pure joy of life. My favorite pieces are the particular fugues that take me down a black hole but are laced with transcendent rays of light.

Favorite piano versions - Gould, Gulda, Tureck, Fell, Woodward, Koroliov, Crossland, and a few others not on the tip of my tongue.

Favorite harpsichord versions - Leonhardt, Wilson, van Asperen, Ross, Dantone, Belder, Parmentier, and Gilbert.


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## endelbendel

When i listen to WTC i wonder why i ever listen to anything else. Recently bought a few. Latest heard Butt, harpsichord.


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## Taplow

I've just ordered the Koopman set. Interested to see how it stacks up against my (several) Rosalyn Tureck, Bob van Asperen, and Kenneth Gilbert. It's a pity Murrray Perahia never recorded this grand oeuvre ... I like his Goldberg very much.


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## joen_cph

Samuil Feinberg and Sviatoslav Richter are the ones I return to, preferring piano recordings.

Of complete sets, I´ve also got the the old Tureck, Gould, Schiff, Galling on harpsichord. 

Sold Edwin Fischer and Gulda (unless Gulda is in the attic). 

I don´t plan to get any further ones.

Yudina worth noting too.


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## joen_cph

jegreenwood said:


> Suggest you do a search for WTC over the entire forum. My search returned over 15 threads with Tempered in the title.


_Science_ knows these things, I think


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## wkasimer

Taplow said:


> I've just ordered the Koopman set.


Is there an integral Koopman set, or just the two separate books? One of my favorite harpsichord versions, largely because I really like the sound of the instrument.

Among the many piano versions, for me Nikolayeva reigns surpreme.


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## Bulldog

Taplow said:


> I've just ordered the Koopman set. Interested to see how it stacks up against my (several) Rosalyn Tureck, Bob van Asperen, and Kenneth Gilbert. It's a pity Murrray Perahia never recorded this grand oeuvre ... I like his Goldberg very much.


I've never warmed to Perahia's Bach, but I am confident his WTC would improve on Barenboim's.


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## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> One of my favorite harpsichord versions, largely because I really like the sound of the instrument.


A copy of a Ruckers I think, well recorded. It's a unique performance because of the way he seems to favour using ornaments over agogics. He's very good at ornaments too, it has to be said.


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## BiscuityBoyle

joen_cph said:


> Samuil Feinberg and Sviatoslav Richter are the ones I return to, preferring piano recordings.
> 
> Of complete sets, I´ve also got the the old Tureck, Gould, Schiff, Galling on harpsichord.
> 
> Sold Edwin Fischer and Gulda (unless Gulda is in the attic).
> 
> I don´t plan to get any further ones.
> 
> Yudina worth noting too.


Maria Yudina recorded the WTC?


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## Mandryka

Guida's clavichord recording of WTC 2. I don't know what sort of clavichord he uses, to me it sounds like one of those guitars that Americans play with bottle necks. He plays with foot tapping swing and enormous coolth, and he knows how to bring out a good tune. It will, I'm sure, appeal to people who like Glenn Gould and Michel Chapuis.

Whoever wrote the blurb needs a new pairs of ears, there's nothing self effacing or unpretentious about it, on the contrary.


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## joen_cph

BiscuityBoyle said:


> Maria Yudina recorded the WTC?


Only parts of it, as far as I know. Pieces can also be found on you-tube. And there´s a Concerto B1052, with Sanderling, which I haven´t heard (it´s on youtube, samples sound underrehearsed), and various other pieces.

https://www.discogs.com/Maria-Yudin...14-Preludes-And-Fugues-Well-T/release/8869426
https://www.discogs.com/Maria-Yudin...ollection-Of-Recordings-Vol-1/release/4725940

I do have her complete Goldbergs, on LP.


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## Taplow

wkasimer said:


> Is there an integral Koopman set, or just the two separate books? One of my favorite harpsichord versions, largely because I really like the sound of the instrument.
> 
> Among the many piano versions, for me Nikolayeva reigns surpreme.


Two separate books. Never released as an integrated set. I've been really impressed with a lot of Koopman's work for both harpsichord and organ. His Italian Concerto, BWV 971, is possibly my favourite, and some of his Handel organ concertos, especially the Op. 7 No. 1 In B Flat, HWV 306, make me swoon. But that takes us off topic.


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## Taplow

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 105927
> 
> 
> Guida's clavichord recording of WTC 2. I don't know what sort of clavichord he uses, to me it sounds like one of those guitars that Americans play with bottle necks. He plays with foot tapping swing and enormous coolth, and he knows how to bring out a good tune. It will, I'm sure, appeal to people who like Glenn Gould and Michel Chapuis.


Your review got me curious, so I'm listening to it now. It does sound almost like some sort of electric keyboard. The nature of the clavichord (a metal tangent pushing on the string) means that no doubt you could bend the string somewhat as you pushed harder, creating that funky slide guitar effect. It sounds a bit like Wendy Carlos ad-libbing on a Hohner Clavinet. He's obviously having great fun. And it's infectious!


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## jegreenwood

joen_cph said:


> _Science_ knows these things, I think


Yeah - I saw the number of posts. I guess I just don't understand why we need a new thread.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> He's very good at ornaments too, it has to be said.


He [Koopman] is sometimes too good at ornaments to my taste, but here [WTC] and in my favorite Bach/Koopman recording [French suites] he is rather successful IMO.


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## Mandryka

science said:


> Well, what do you think? Do you love this work? If so, why?


I think it's not a work, it's at least 2, probably 48, possibly 96.

I don't mean to just make a pedantic point, I was struck by this when listening to Koopman this morning, how his approach works brilliantly in some pieces but less brilliantly in others.


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## Larkenfield

Mixed feelings about the WTC, perhaps because some of them sound a little dry as if they were written to be instructive or as academic exercises rather than simply to be enjoyed. But I love that he went through all the major and minor keys without having to re-tune the instrument for each one. What a headache that would have been, and I think he took full advantage of his tuning which I think was equal temperament all the way. It saved time, and after all, he had 20 children to raise.


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## premont

Larkenfield said:


> But I love that he went through all the major and minor keys without having to re-tune the instrument for each one. What a headache that would have been, and I think he took full advantage of *his tuning which I think was equal temperament all the way.* It saved time, and after all, he had 20 children to raise.


I would like to see the musicological arguments for your claim.


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## San Antone

Along with the Goldberg Variations, Art of Fugue and A Musical Offering, the Well-Tempered Clavier is one of Bach's works I return to again and again. I consider it a landmark of keyboard literature, right up there with the Beethoven sonatas. The variety of performances is amazing and the music is impervious to interpretive aberrations. 

Much like Shakespeare, the WTC is suitable for high school students as well as musicians of the highest artistic level.


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## Mandryka

These are some comments by Frédérick Haas on WTC



> Although they are considered as two parts of the same collection, they are as different from each other as are the Partitas and the English Suites. The first book is obviously brilliant but a bit hetero* geneous, composed of pieces clearly written at different periods of time. Yet, if the works of youth reveal a person who is rebellious, exuberant, baroque in the accepted sense of the term (according to what little we know about him, Bach was far from being a smart child), the stricter moments are sometimes a little restrained. The second, later, volume is conceived as a whole in its own right and represents, I believe, the accomplishment of a concept to which the composer attached great importance. A great deal of care was taken over it. The result, in terms of scale, coherence and strength, is only comparable to the third Clavierübung. As in all the great works of his maturity, Bach reaches a point of miraculous equilibrium. One can not go any further in terms of formal rigor: The mastery of composition is total-a complexity that literally turns one's head. And yet everything is deep, sensitive, intense, sometimes overwhelming; a fascinating marriage of the most advanced intellect and the most direct emotion with an incredible variety of musical textures. The prelude in C major is like a prelude for a great organ; the fugue in B flat major is a kind of sinfonia with oboes da caccia. The fugue in B major sounds like a great Amen for choir and orchestra... And then there are all the affects which are identical to the ones found in the Cantatas or the Passions: The prelude in C sharp major, solitary and melancholic; the one in B major, violent and full of revolt; the prelude in D major, dazzling with vitality; or the fugue in F sharp major, which seems to cry with resignation... In short, as soon as they are courted, each piece opens, reveals wonders, and releases a narcotic charm.


His recent recording is particularly expressive in a lyrical way, I think it's well worth hearing. He's clearly thought through the music from scratch as it were.


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## Mandryka

...............


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## science

Here is Trout's list of the most highly recommended recordings of WTC, based on his research rather than his personal opinion.


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## Tchaikov6

science said:


> Here is Trout's list of the most highly recommended recordings of WTC, based on his research rather than his personal opinion.


Yup, I'd agree with him, Richter is the best (or rather my favorite). Really profound interpretation.


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## science

Out of the arbitrary blue I thunder:

As a listener, I enjoy counterpoint in general. It's a fun mental challenge. Like so many of Bach's short works, each of these preludes and fugues is - since I can do poetic cliche better than actual analysis, and it remains more popular anyway - like a multifaceted gem that Bach slowly turns, letting the light shine on each surface. To me, they are primarily intellectual works with negligible emotional content. It's math-y music, which to some people sounds like an insult, but I personally really enjoy the mathy-ness of mathy music far, far more than I enjoy the emotional manipulation of more sensual music. I also enjoy the mathy-ness of actual math.

The mental effort of doing this, and my own limited capacity, means that I can only listen to a few of the pieces at a time before it becomes background music to my own daydreaming. (I also take breaks in the middle of Euler's arguments.) I've long imagined that someday I'll just do one of them per day for 96 days, but that is an eschatological concept. I do, however, tend to like the more somber Book II better than Book I.

To me, the most interesting aspect of the WTC, other than the music itself, is the question of temperament. If you're not familiar with that, the inestimable Jan Swafford has written a nice introduction to it that focuses on the WTC: "Bach wrote the preludes and fugues of _The Well-Tempered Clavier_... not only to show off this improved system but to help make well-temperament mandatory by writing irreplaceable pieces in every key." So far so standard (but don't be taken in by the confidence of that declaration), but then he delivers: "I'd go so far as to suggest that performances on period instruments in modern tuning are half-assed, or half-HIPped, if you like. As tuning activist Kyle Gann says on his Web site, "Playing Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier in today's equal temperament is like exhibiting Rembrandt paintings with wax paper taped over them."

I prefer to listen to WTC (and similar works) on a harpsichord and very modern sound in part because I feel like the "cleanness" of the timbre (compared to a piano) makes it easier for me to hear the voices, but that could well be sort of an auditory illusion.

I have not heard Watchorn's recording, but I long to, because he actually uses the alternative tuning championed by Bradley Lehman. I doubt that my poor ears would hear the difference, but I'd love to give them lots of opportunities.

Of the versions I've heard, Van Asperen's is my favorite because I can - or at least I imagine that I can - hear the counterpoint so well. He doesn't favor individualistic, idiosyncratic interpretations. For him, it's Bach's music, not his. I like that too, at least for the sake of establishing a prototype to which I can compare others.

A few years ago, when I was letting you guys tell me what to buy, you made me get the expensive Schiff recording on ECM, and for a piano version (cough, sniff) I have to admit it is pretty good.


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## Mandryka

Let me try something out for the cognescenti to refute. Schiff ECM stands to WTC as Yoyo Ma 3 stands to the cello suites. They both make it all colourful, with tunes you can follow, with an easy to grasp little story.

Is there anything other than that that we could reasonably want from a performance?


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## premont

science said:


> Out of the arbitrary blue I thunder:
> 
> As a listener, I enjoy counterpoint in general. It's a fun mental challenge. Like so many of Bach's short works, each of these preludes and fugues is - since I can do poetic cliche better than actual analysis, and it remains more popular anyway - like a multifaceted gem that Bach slowly turns, letting the light shine on each surface.* To me, they are primarily intellectual works with negligible emotional content*. It's math-y music, which to some people sounds like an insult, but I personally really enjoy the mathy-ness of mathy music far, far more than I enjoy the emotional manipulation of more sensual music.
> 
> *To me, the most interesting aspect of the WTC, other than the music itself, is the question of temperament. *... "Bach wrote the preludes and fugues of _The Well-Tempered Clavier_... not only to show off this improved system but to help make well-temperament mandatory by writing irreplaceable pieces in every key." So far so standard (but don't be taken in by the confidence of that declaration), but then he delivers: "I'd go so far as to suggest that performances on period instruments in modern tuning are half-assed, or half-HIPped, if you like. As tuning activist Kyle Gann says on his Web site, "Playing Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier in today's equal temperament is like exhibiting Rembrandt paintings with wax paper taped over them."


The idea of writing music in different modes for an unequally tuned instrument was (other than illustrating the technical possibilities) to display the different affects of the different modes. In equal tuning all modes have in principle the same affect (tonal color). So I do not understand why you belittle the WTC's emotional content, when you on the other hand stress the importance of unequal tuning.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> Let me try something out for the cognescenti to refute. Schiff ECM stands to WTC as Yoyo Ma 3 stands to the cello suites. They both make it all colourful, with tunes you can follow, with an easy to grasp little story.
> 
> Is there anything other than that that we could reasonably want from a performance?


I like the Schiff ECM because he uses less pedal, and I find a certain clarity in his tone. He also doesn't have an excessively extroverted personality he tries to impose on the music. I've never really associated his approach with being more or less tuneful and I'm not sure what "little story" you are referring to.


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## science

premont said:


> The idea of writing music in different modes for an unequally tuned instrument was (other than illustrating the technical possibilities) to display the different affects of the different modes. In equal tuning all modes have in principle the same affect (tonal color). So I do not understand why you belittle the WTC's emotional content, when you on the other hand stress the importance of unequal tuning.


I didn't belittle anything, nor did I "stress the importance of unequal tuning."


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## Mandryka

tdc said:


> I like the Schiff ECM because he uses less pedal, and I find a certain clarity in his tone. He also doesn't have an excessively extroverted personality he tries to impose on the music. I've never really associated his approach with being more or less tuneful and I'm not sure what "little story" you are referring to.


One way he "imposes" himself is with the dynamic variation within each piece.

Listening to some of it again last night, I felt uncomfortable with the way he plays the counterpoint, but I need time to develop the thought.


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> I like the Schiff ECM because he uses less pedal, and I find a certain clarity in his tone. He also doesn't have an excessively extroverted personality he tries to impose on the music. I've never really associated his approach with being more or less tuneful and I'm not sure what "little story" you are referring to.


I very much like Schiff ECM, far more than his earlier effort. It gains over the excellent Gould, if by nothing else than the lack of vocal accompaniment.


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## Mandryka

science said:


> I didn't belittle anything, nor did I "stress the importance of unequal tuning."


Some people think that if played with appropriate keyboard tuning it's just a fact about the music that they it expresses feelings, because the key _causes_ a feeling in the listener. If that's right, the idea that they are works "with negligible emotional content" is as a matter of fact, false.


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> I very much like Schiff ECM,


I don't. I can think of at least four, possibly five or even six or seven, other modern piano versions which I prefer.


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## Luchesi

This is very helpful for exploring these pieces;


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> Some people think that if played with appropriate keyboard tuning it's just a fact about the music that they it expresses feelings, because the key _causes_ a feeling in the listener. If that's right, the idea that they are works "with negligible emotional content" is as a matter of fact, false.


Yes, I find Bach's use of harmony incredibly deep and moving and it stirs profound emotions within me. But he doesn't emote or throw tantrums in the way some later composers did, so in this sense his music could be viewed as less 'emotional'.


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## Mandryka

tdc said:


> Yes, I find Bach's use of harmony incredibly deep and moving and it stirs profound emotions within me. But he doesn't emote or throw tantrums in the way some later composers did, so in this sense his music could be viewed as less 'emotional'.


It's complicated. There are ways of playing the harpsichord music which make it sound as expressive as a c17 madrigal. But it's probably fair to say that the modern piano players have discounted this possibility.

I listened to some of Koroliov WTC 2 yesterday. Some of the fugues are taken very meditatively.


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## premont

tdc said:


> Yes, I find Bach's use of harmony incredibly deep and moving and it stirs profound emotions within me. But he doesn't emote or throw tantrums in the way some later composers did, so in this sense his music could be viewed as less 'emotional'.


I think this is a matter of temper. So wouldn't it be more telling to distinguish between introvert / extrovert instead of less emotional / more emotional? I on my part find much - maybe the most - of Bach's music equally emotional as any kind of romantic music.


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## Luchesi

Mandryka said:


> It's complicated. There are ways of playing the harpsichord music which make it sound as expressive as a c17 madrigal. But it's probably fair to say that the modern piano players have discounted this possibility.
> 
> I listened to some of Koroliov WTC 2 yesterday. Some of the fugues are taken very meditatively.


I want more of this Koroliov.

Here he is in the famous Dm;


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## JayBee

I would be most interested to know what people think about HJ Lim's approach:




I am a listener for enjoyment, with little background knowledge in music per se. I love Bach and the WTC in particular. I almost immediately stopped this performance, put off by the speed at which she attacks the opening. Then I went back to listen again and thought that it seemed quite harp-like...something I could appreciate intellectually at least. But having listened to a bit more, and then to some of her approach to Beethoven's sonatas, I find myself wondering if there is more to what she is doing than just speed and technique. Would Bach have approved of this, do you think? Impressions appreciated.


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## Mandryka

Luchesi said:


> I want more of this Koroliov.
> 
> Here he is in the famous Dm;


I guess Koroliov's got his own ideas about how the music in WTC should go.


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## Roger Knox

Mandryka said:


> Some people think that if played with appropriate keyboard tuning it's just a fact about the music that they it expresses feelings, because the key _causes_ a feeling in the listener. If that's right, the idea that they are works "with negligible emotional content" is as a matter of fact, false.


This seems very complex. I certainly agree that the notion of Bach's WTC compositions having negligible emotional content is false. Even on a modern piano in equal temperament, I believe that the WTC Preludes and Fugues can be "expressive of" certain emotions (Peter Kivy's formulation), for example sadness in WTC, Book 1, No. 22 (B flat minor).

I'm don't know the differences between well tempered (Bach's) and equal tempered (modern) tuning though. From there, I would then be interested in learning how appropriate keyboard tuning affects, say, the sounds of scales and chords in various keys. Then, how a key so affected causes feelings in the listener. If anyone can suggest readable sources please let me know.


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## Mandryka

Roger Knox said:


> If anyone can suggest readable sources please let me know.


The ideal thing would be to look at the booklet to Guido de Neve and Frank Agsteribbe's recording of the violin sonatas, but it's not online, apart from this brief description, which does at least explain the affect associated with each key.

https://www.etcetera-records.com/album/633/sonatas-violin-and-harpsichord

It is, in my opinion, a very provocative, imaginative, bold and challenging set of performances. A genuine musical experiment.

Have a look at the essay from the booklet to Leila Schayegh and Jörg Halubek's recording of the violin sonatas here -- they also tried the same sort of experimental approach, but the booklet and the performances are maybe less inspiring than Agsteribbe and Neve.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/15/000087951.pdf

Oh by the way, I think the violin sonatas were written at about the same time as he was working on WTC.

Hans Georg Schaefer recorded WTC on a modern piano, using some sort of non equal temperament. It's a very stimulating recording in my opinion, not only because of the temperament, but also, and IMO more importantly, because he avoids modern piano effects. The performance to me was a revelation because it shows how Bach's music in WTC is not helped by the sort of things that Gould and Koroliov and Edwin Fischer and Feinberg etc get up to. Indeed for me, given what I'm looking for from music, what they do diminishes the music.

What Georg Schaefer does NOT do is use authentic embellishments to really bring out the affect of each key as described in Mattheson's _Das Neu-Eröffnete Orchester_

Does anybody -- piano, harpsichord, organ or clavichord? If so that would be interesting!


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## Bigbang

I was at my library seeking out new donations. Vladimir Feltsman on piano and all the WTC complete. I know I like Richter and listen to the first cd, so far so good but I tire sometimes of listening so I will break it up over time. There are reviews praising his version on Amazon. I also have his "live" goldberg variations. And a few weeks ago found a WTC Harpsichord on Naxos by Luc Beausejour...any comments on the two WTC above?


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## Mandryka

Beausejour is rather nicely played and rather well recorded, and very unadventurous in every way. There are quite long pauses between each piece, so there’s no attacca.

Feltsman is also well recorded. He plays a modern piano. He sometimes plays louder and softer for short phrases and even individual notes, and he uses a bunch of different types of portato/staccato touch.


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## Roger Knox

Mandryka said:


> The ideal thing would be to look at the booklet to Guido de Neve and Frank Agsteribbe's recording of the violin sonatas, but it's not online, apart from this brief description, which does at least explain the affect associated with each key.
> https://www.etcetera-records.com/album/633/sonatas-violin-and-harpsichord
> It is, in my opinion, a very provocative, imaginative, bold and challenging set of performances. A genuine musical experiment.


Thanks, *Mandryka*. I would like to clarify one thing. When I wrote in post #42, "I don't know the differences between well tempered (Bach's) and equal tempered (modern) tuning ... " I meant I don't know enough details to critique the idea that keys in different tunings cause different feelings in the listener. I do understand the concepts of mean-tone, well-tempered, and equal temperament, which incidentally are summarized in the useful Jan Swafford article linked in *science's* post #26.

Thanks also for linking your booklet on Bach's violin sonatas. And your remarks on different historically informed performances of the WTC are very helpful.


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## damianjb1

science said:


> This is one of Bach's best-known works, and wikipedia has an excellent article about it, including links to articles about several of the individual prelude and fugues.
> 
> Well, what do you think? Do you love this work? If so, why?
> 
> Feel free, of course, to promote your favorite recordings!


Amongst the greatest music ever written. There's a reason it's known as "The Old Testament" for keyboard players. Beethoven's 32 Piano Sonata's are "The New Testament". The player who gets me closest to the truth is Richter. Always Richter.


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## Ras

I know Bach should not sound like Chopin - but my guilty pleasure is Barenboim on warner. Otherwise: Schiff, Gould and Fellner.


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## jegreenwood

Ras said:


> *I know Bach should not sound like Chopin *- but my guilty pleasure is Barenboim on warner. Otherwise: Schiff, Gould and Fellner.


Try Samuil Feinberg.


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## premont

Ras said:


> I know Bach should not sound like Chopin - but my guilty pleasure is Barenboim on warner. Otherwise: Schiff, Gould and Fellner.


Try a harpsichord version.


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