# Post-modernism vs Modernism: A) are they current aesthetic rivals; B) does the latter counts the largest number of adherents (listeners, concert-goer?



## hbronv (6 mo ago)

Some prominent 20th-century music history books point out 20th-century modernism started with the harmonic and formal "revolutions" of French composer Claude Debussy (born in 1862)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

We need to start with definitions of the terms to discuss this. What is Modernism and what is Postmodernism and are those two the only overarching terms we need?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> We need to start with definitions of the terms to discuss this. What is Modernism and what is Postmodernism and are those two the only overarching terms we need?


I dislike how the terms are used nowadays.

Modernists tend to attach certain compositional methods and techniques to modernism and then suggest that composers not following their methods are not modernists.

Postmodernists tend to claim every other thing belonging to postmodernism, even though in musicology it is the postmodern techniques that are easier to discuss: collage, strong narratives, sarcasm, irony, style allusions…

I like to believe we all live the postmodern times, where there are many simultaenous viewpoints and microcosmoses. Modernism, traditionalism and postmodernism as techniques are all alive and well under the umbrella of the postmodern situation.

It would help to be specific when using the terms modernism and postmodernism.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I seriously doubt this sort of thing is on the mind of most concert-goers regardless of genre.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I can see Debussy as first modern composer inspired by impressionism in visual art.The second Viennese school the climax of modernism.Now music is in chaos with both tonality and atonality dead,so I guess Ives's question has been answered then and rock N roll's prophecy came true and the music died.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

We've discussed the distintinction between the two many times here. In a nutshell, modernism emerges out of the industrial revolution, which peaked in the 19th century. Postmodernism emerges after that, depending on who you ask, sometime after 1945.

Overall, in terms of music, I think these are some of the main sticking points:

Grand narratives - including views on progress
Adherence to structural rigour versus fragmentation
Formalism versus context (especially in musicology)
Responses to music outside the Western tradition and also popular music
Opinions on the core performance repertoire (or canon), c. 1750-1950
Alternative methods of notation might be another one (e.g. as found in aleatoric and electronic music)

The big switch away from modernism occured during the 1970's. Perhaps listeners over a certain age might still retain a sort of living memory of modernism, and therefore a certain nostalgia towards it. However, I think that most listeners are quite comfortable with the situation as it is. Even if they're not, the certainties - or more accurately, apparent certainties - presented by modernism are over.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

hbronv said:


> Some prominent 20th-century music history books point out 20th-century modernism started with the harmonic and formal "revolutions" of French composer Claude Debussy (born in 1862)


I'm not sure I follow the questions in the title and how your OP fits with it. Would you elaborate further?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Is there such a thing as post modern performance, as opposed to modern, romantic or whatever? That's to say, could you have a post modern performance of, for example, a Brahms symphony?


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Is there such a thing as post modern performance, as opposed to modern, romantic or whatever? That's to say, could you have a post modern performance of, for example, a Brahms symphony?


Yeah, it's called HIP!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Is there such a thing as post modern performance, as opposed to modern, romantic or whatever? That's to say, could you have a post modern performance of, for example, a Brahms symphony?


You could and you should!

A postmodern Brahms symphony performance produced by me would involve the audience being on the stage and the orchestra being on the stand. The conductor would face the audience and pretend to be conducting the old lady in the front row as the leader of the viola section. The order of the movements would of course be reversed. In the end the orchestra would give standing ovations to the audience and bring them one rose each.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mandryka said:


> Is there such a thing as post modern performance, as opposed to modern, romantic or whatever? That's to say, could you have a post modern performance of, for example, a Brahms symphony?





fbjim said:


> Yeah, it's called HIP!


That would be my answer as well, even though HIP had its precursors in the early 20th century. France, with Wanda Landowska's harpsichord performances and the growing interest in modal music by composers (e.g. Satie, Debussy, Durufle), was an early centre. HIP as we know it really took off after 1945, becoming established by the 1980's by which time modernism is over.


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## johnlewisgrant (Mar 11, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> We need to start with definitions of the terms to discuss this. What is Modernism and what is Postmodernism and are those two the only overarching terms we need?


Sounds like a plan!
Hard to figure out what’s being said and meant absent a definition of “terms” (words that for clarity and precision are assigned technical definitions in mathematics, science, philosophy, MUSICOLOGY, etc.).
Even “definition” needs definition, for exactly the same reasons!!

By way of edit and clarification: the word “definition” has many usages in English. One of these is, roughly stated, a DESCRIPTION of the various ways in which in words have been used over time and in different contexts. In other words, dictionary definitions. Another type of “definition” is stipulation: where either deliberately or inadvertently we invent slightly or wholly new and different meanings for words. (Philosophers do that …. a lot…both deliberately and inadvertently.)


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