# Where does Solti stand as Wagner conductor?



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sir Georg Solti was famous for his operatic conducting and especially his Wagner Ring. John Culshaw reckoned him to be the great Wagnerian conductor of the age. I find his Ring a bit too much concentrating on the excitement of the moment and emphasising the brashness of Wagner's writing. However, listening to his Tannhauser I was thrilled by his ability to bring this work to life. Hitherto I had considered it a bore. So where does Solti stand as a Wagner conductor? Opinions please.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Like many, I cut my Wagnerian teeth on the Solti Ring, and am still a fan. He may not represent the only or most profound approach to Wagner, but I wouldn't want to be without his historic contributions.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I am glad to see you warm to Tannhauser.
Regarding Solti, his Wagner recordings all find themselves at the top of my Wagner collection.

His Dutchman, exciting and involving, Tannhauser involving, exciting.
Lohengrin, spacious,spiritual. His Ring, exciting, spacious.
Both his Meisters are very good. I slightly prefer 2 for its amazing chorus,orch and sound.
His Parsifal is unrushed with exquisite playing and best singers.
His Tristan I don't have and I read he wanted to redo it before he died.

just mho :tiphat: 

ps I would have purchased his Tristan, but I read the side breaks were horrendous. And I HATE bad side breaks,


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*I don't think there is any question that Solti's studio Ring remains one of the greatest recordings of Wagner we have today*, and will continue to be so mainly because we have no singers of such high Wagner vocal skills today.......the sound quality is really amazing (tribute to Culshaw/Decca) in latest remaster HD blu ray audio sounds as good as anything made today 50+ years later

Solti would not seem to be the obvious choice for such a great undertaking and was not well known at the time, he was not performing at Bayreuth the pinnacle of wagner performing art, and shocking factoid the 58 Decca Rheingold recording was Solti's very first complete opera recording of any opera! There was a long wait after it's release to see if there was really public demand necessary to continue the expensive process of a complete studio ring (which there was)......the entire recording project stretched over many years 1958-65

Most people know that Decca's rival EMI Angel had already begun a planned studio Ring with Furtwangler and had already recorded Walkure in 1954 just before his death (which ended the project)

Outside of the Ring considering the other wagner operas I think Solti come back to earth and is less highly rated being challenged mainly by the great Bayreuth conductors of that time Knap, Keilberth, Sawallisch, Krauss, Kempe, Bohm etc. (and a guy from DG named Karajan)

Solti's Tannhauser is probably my favorite non Ring opera, when we get to things like Parsifal the old experienced german masters (Knap, Furtwangler) better navigate the profound spiritual and metaphysical aspects of the music that go beyond the written notes, their direct ties to the german conducting school linking back to wagner himself are a lost art now.....


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

I guess he stands on a rostrum as a Wagner conductor. He probably does the same as a Verdi or Mozart conductor.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

The studio Decca 58 Rheingold was so popular and such a boost in prestige and fame for opera conductor Solti that in 1961 he was appointed music director ROH covent garden an unbelievable coup for Sir Georg, a floodgate of opera recordings followed......


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

If I had to choose one set of Wagner, it would be his. Love him or load him he was one off the very best:tiphat:.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

He is right up there with Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch for me. My first Wagner _Ring_ set was on LP, and happened to be Solti's. It was with a great sense of pride, for a pre-teenager, to see those four huge boxes on my shelf, knowing that they contained sublime music that I could listen to at any time I fancied, so my opinion may be coloured somewhat.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Antiquarian said:


> He is right up there with Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch for me. My first Wagner _Ring_ set was on LP, and happened to be Solti's. * It was with a great sense of pride, for a pre-teenager, to see those four huge boxes on my shelf*, knowing that they contained sublime music that I could listen to at any time I fancied, so my opinion may be coloured somewhat.


Pugg has just recently indulged in uncontrollable vinyl lust and purchased the Solti Ring vinyl box.......such a beautiful object of desire, owners will someday enter the mighty halls of Valhalla........


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Pugg has just recently indulged in uncontrollable vinyl lust and purchased the Solti Ring vinyl box.......such a beautiful object of desire, owners will someday enter the mighty halls of Valhalla........


Ah, a thing of beauty. Unfortunately, my set was the Time/Life knockoff set that came in four individual boxes. Still, I content myself in the fact that it is easier to handle four smaller boxes than one huge one, at least at my age. Though, to be truthful, I've moved on to CDs and haven't played the vinyl in years.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Pugg has just recently indulged in uncontrollable vinyl lust and purchased the Solti Ring vinyl box.......such a beautiful object of desire, owners will someday enter the mighty halls of Valhalla........


The entrée ticket ( to the Valhalla) was not included. 
It's a one way anyway should be no problem .


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> The studio Decca 58 Rheingold was so popular and such a boost in prestige and fame for opera conductor Solti that in 1961 he was appointed music director ROH covent garden an unbelievable coup for Sir Georg, a floodgate of opera recordings followed......


In the documentary, The Golden Ring, you can see Solti arguing with Culshaw wanting slower tempi at the end of Gotterdammerung. Culshaw wanted faster. Surprising?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> In the documentary, The Golden Ring, you can see Solti arguing with Culshaw wanting slower tempi at the end of Gotterdammerung. Culshaw wanted faster. Surprising?


Those sneakers :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> In the documentary, The Golden Ring, you can see Solti arguing with Culshaw wanting slower tempi at the end of Gotterdammerung. Culshaw wanted faster. Surprising?


I suspect Culshaw was right. Solti's tempi in _Gotterdammerung_ are on the broad (Knappertsbuschisch - try saying that fast three times) side, they're effective, and they don't need to be slower.

To the OP: Solti is variable, but has been over-criticized. His _Ring_ is a superb achievement, a little weak only in the _Walkure_, which lacks some warmth and momentum. His _Tannhauser_ may be the best set overall, and I want to go back and hear his _Parsifal_ again. I don't expect the deep mysteries of a Kna or a Muck, but I suspect it is quite beautiful and, as Itullian points out, the cast is generally excellent. Where are the likes of Christa Ludwig and Gottlob Frick today?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I was wondering which Ring cycle to listen to next and this thread has prompted me to listen to the 1965 Covent Garden Ring with Solti at the helm.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Pugg has just recently indulged in uncontrollable vinyl lust and purchased the Solti Ring vinyl box.......such a beautiful object of desire, owners will someday enter the mighty halls of Valhalla........


Sadly this former owner has forfeited that right having sold his copy on eBay!! The money went to a good cause though - more opera.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Sadly this former owner has forfeited that right having sold his copy on eBay!! The money went to a good cause though - more opera.


I got mine from my godfather, so first-hand so to speak


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I am glad to see you warm to Tannhauser.
> Regarding Solti, his Wagner recordings all find themselves at the top of my Wagner collection.
> 
> His Dutchman, exciting and involving, Tannhauser involving, exciting.
> ...


Solti was not happy with his first Mastersingers which is why he wanted to re-record it. He said he would certainly have liked to have done Tristan again - "I was too inexperienced" - but his death put paid to that. The other problems of the Tristan - the fact that Uhl is totally over-parted leading to a spider-fly pairing of a devouring female and powerless male and the recording tends to favour the orchestra unduly, even more than in the Ring.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> when we get to things like Parsifal the old experienced german masters (Knap, Furtwangler) better navigate the profound spiritual and metaphysical aspects of the music that go beyond the written notes, their direct ties to the german conducting school linking back to wagner himself are a lost art now.....


Thielemann?.........


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

The dots in the above are to reach 15 characters, in case you wondered...


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I guess he stands on a rostrum as a Wagner conductor. He probably does the same as a Verdi or Mozart conductor.


Tut man (or woman) (or fluid gender identity of your choice)! He doesn't stand on the rostrum as a Wagner conductor when he's conducting Verdi or Mozart.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't expect the deep mysteries of a Kna or a Muck


As you well know, Woodduck, where there's Muck there's brass, and that could hardly be more appropriate for Wagner.
On that awfully off-key note, I'm going to bed. Good night.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Solti was not happy with his first Mastersingers which is why he wanted to re-record it. He said he would certainly have liked to have done Tristan again - "I was too inexperienced" - but his death put paid to that. The other problems of the Tristan - the fact that Uhl is totally over-parted leading to a spider-fly pairing of a devouring female and powerless male and the recording tends to favour the orchestra unduly, even more than in the Ring.


The other problem Decca faced with Tristan was that Karajan was recording for them in Vienna and was not too pleased that he was not conducting the Tristan. Actually it was none too smart to record Tristan - a Karajan speciality - in Vienna with Karajan's orchestra with a rival conductor. Hence HvK typically indulged in some none too subtle sabotage, insisting he record Haydn symphonies during the morning which meant the whole stage had to be reset for the Tristan. In view of Solti's inexperience with the score I could never fathom why Culshaw wanted to record Tristan with him instead of Karajan, who had conducted wondrous Tristans in both Bayreuth and Vienna. Even with Uhl, we might have had something special.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^ Yes David Solti was learning on the job compared to Karajan in Wagner, but Solti and Culshaw were on a roll as discussed previously the 58 Rheingold was a huge success, so much so that Solti was given the ROH music director position with his sudden rise in fame and status, Culshaw had to stay with his golden boy.......

That said the 52 Karajan Tristan from Bayreuth is magnificent performance, perhaps my very favorite Tristan......unfortunately because of various frictions Karajan was not to return to Bayreuth after 52.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Further to my post at #16 I did get £150 (around $220) for it, so it wasn't a bad investment.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks to DA and David for dropping knowledge... very interesting the "politics" and history of the above mentioned conductors and recording studios... 

My two-cents... Solti wasn't my introduction to any Wagner work (Save Tannhauser, which I enjoyed very much) so I don't have maybe the emotional connection that others have mentioned in previous posts. While the orchestration is, more often than not, very well directed; to me the balance suffers at the expense of the vocal. I have admittedly spent most of my Wagner listening time on older live recordings at Bayreuth which, for me, has been the jackpot. 

I probably fall into the camp of "young, new generation opera listeners who don't understand the landmark achievements of Solti, etc...." But again, he wasn't my introduction to Wagner. I'd say his contributions have only helped overall, but not a "go-to" or desert-island pick for me, thus far on my Wagner listening journey...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

cheftimmyr said:


> Thanks to DA and David for dropping knowledge... very interesting the "politics" and history of the above mentioned conductors and recording studios...
> 
> My two-cents... Solti wasn't my introduction to any Wagner work (Save Tannhauser, which I enjoyed very much) so I don't have maybe the emotional connection that others have mentioned in previous posts. While the orchestration is, more often than not, very well directed; to me the balance suffers at the expense of the vocal. I have admittedly spent most of my Wagner listening time on older live recordings at Bayreuth which, for me, has been the jackpot.
> 
> I probably fall into the camp of "young, new generation opera listeners who don't understand the landmark achievements of Solti, etc...." But again, he wasn't my introduction to Wagner. I'd say his contributions have only helped overall, but not a "go-to" or desert-island pick for me, thus far on my Wagner listening journey...


And there's absolutely no reason he should be. I think we're all just glad that there are younger opera fans out there, particularly for Wagner. I've just finished his '65 Covent Garden Rheingold. I really liked it. David Ward is a great Wotan, Zoltan Kelemen an outstanding Alberich, Josephine Veasey in imperious form as Fricka and Gerhard Stolze is an idiosyncratic but accurately sung Loge. His is not a voice to everyone's taste but I've always liked it but you know it's him and not some bland nondescript voice that brings nothing to the interpretation. The rest of the cast are pretty solid but the real highlight is Solti's conducting. Less aggressive than his studio version but he gets some great playing from the Covent Garden orchestra. A really good Rheingold.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> And there's absolutely no reason he should be. I think we're all just glad that there are younger opera fans out there, particularly for Wagner. I've just finished his '65 Covent Garden Rheingold. I really liked it. David Ward is a great Wotan, Zoltan Kelemen an outstanding Alberich, Josephine Veasey in imperious form as Fricka and Gerhard Stolze is an idiosyncratic but accurately sung Loge. His is not a voice to everyone's taste but I've always liked it but you know it's him and not some bland nondescript voice that brings nothing to the interpretation. The rest of the cast are pretty solid but the real highlight is Solti's conducting. Less aggressive than his studio version but he gets some great playing from the Covent Garden orchestra. A really good Rheingold.


Sounds like "The Solti" I need to hear.... Stylistically I've gotten a "bombastic" feel from his orchestrations... Not a negative at all, and some exhilarating moments, but overall there are other maestros I lean to...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't like watching him. Bugs me.
Too wild


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I don't like watching him. Bugs me.
> Too wild


He wasn't called the "screaming skull" for nothing! And probably not to his face. :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The musicians found him hard to follow.
And I think I read he stabbed himself with the baton.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> The musicians found him hard to follow.
> And I think I read he stabbed himself with the baton.


Yes he made sure he filed the point of the baton off after that! Apparently he only just missed a vital artery which could've been quite serious. One problem with Solti was he had no experience pre-war of conducting so had to literally learn from scratch. He was offered the job at Munich because many of the great German conductors had been implicated with the Nazis during the war and therefore Solti got an opportunity. To grasp it he had to work incredibly hard. He once said: "If you like hard work I am your friend. If you don't, I am your worst enemy!" 
He had a problem sometimes trying to force his interpretations on the singers who are experienced in the roles anyway. One reason he did not get on with Jon Vickers. Vickers preferred the Karajan approach where he was allowed to express himself. A similar problem arose with Jussi Bjoerling in the failed recording of Ballo.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

A story I heard about him, which is probably apocryphal, was that in his early days in London his grasp of the English language was not the best and after giving the orchestra a right dressing down someone in the wind section muttered something like "get knotted you Hungarian berk" or words to that effect. Solti, not quite getting the accent, replied "it's too late to apologise now!"


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> He wasn't called the "screaming skull" for nothing! And probably not to his face. :lol:


If only people wouldn't call me that to _my_ face.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Who named him the Screaming Skull?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

As far as I am aware it was one of the more acceptable nicknames given to him by members of the London Symphony Orchestra. The extract below was part of a tribute published in The Independent newspaper on the occasion of his 80th Birthday. 

"He says, however, that his once aggressive treatment of scores (he literally tore these to pieces as he conducted) and orchestras (he has always yelled and shouted at these) has finally mellowed. The man the members of the London Symphony Orchestra called the 'Screaming Skull' - among less polite sobriquets - claims 'I am not shouting any more. I am a softie now and I think my conducting has mellowed too.'"


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

A pretty darn good legacy.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> A pretty darn good legacy.


And it will be, another 100 years to come :tiphat:


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## Archtop51 (Apr 10, 2011)

Coincidentally, I am listening to this set's Parsifal, which I listened to 40 years ago as this discussion takes place. 
To me second only to Boulez.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Archtop51 said:


> Coincidentally, I am listening to this set's Parsifal, which I listened to 40 years ago as this discussion takes place.
> To me second only to Boulez.


Nice first post, welcome to Talk Classical


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Archtop51 said:


> Coincidentally, I am listening to this set's Parsifal, which I listened to 40 years ago as this discussion takes place.
> To me second only to Boulez.


Welcome to the forum.

What do you like about Boulez's_ Parsifal?_


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> What do you like about Boulez's_ Parsifal?_


Oooh, that's a loaded question Duck!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I find it an anomaly that Solti recorded The Flying Dutchman in Chicago rather than Vienna, with none of the spatial effects that the Decca team put into many of his other recordings in Vienna. Culshaw described it as 'with a microphone jammed down everyone's throat.' Pity that probably the opera that most needs spatial effects (depending on your point of view) didn't get them.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Itullian said:


> A pretty darn good legacy.


Thank you, I've taken the plunge. £60 for 32(?) discs. Will be treasured for years.

I saw him conduct at ROH several times. I remember the performances as being vivid with real electivity generated. He was magnetic in the way he moved and had an obvious sex appeal that the still pictures don't quite capture. The bright eyes for instance. Kiri likes to talk about when tutoring her for a role, he was totally charming in his suggestions of what they might get up to later.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> Thank you, I've taken the plunge. £60 for 32(?) discs. Will be treasured for years.
> 
> I saw him conduct at ROH several times. I remember the performances as being vivid with real electivity generated. He was magnetic in the way he moved and had an obvious sex appeal that the still pictures don't quite capture. The bright eyes for instance. Kiri likes to talk about when tutoring her for a role, he was totally charming in his suggestions of what they might get up to later.


That's less then 2.00 UK pounds a disc.....
Lucky you


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## Archtop51 (Apr 10, 2011)

Thank you. I appreciate it.


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## Archtop51 (Apr 10, 2011)

Almost everything. But I must admit it was the first recording of any Wagner opera I bought. Boulez was, and still is my favorite conductor.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Archtop51 said:


> Almost everything. But I must admit it was the first recording of any Wagner opera I bought. Boulez was, and still is my favorite conductor.


The DG 1970 Boulez was my first Parsifal and it still has my affections. I have four Boulez Parsifals, all from Bayreuth. '66, '68, '70 and '71. They are all good, if a little quick, but that's not a major obstacle for me.


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## Archtop51 (Apr 10, 2011)

I am also quite fond of Kubelik's recording. It's unfortunate that it took so long to be released. I like all of his Wagner recordings, including his Lohengrin which was released about the same time as the 1970 Boulez Parsifal.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Solti Ring was my introduction both to the work and to Wagner in general, and it worked for me, because it turned me into a Wagnerite immediately.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Archtop51 said:


> I am also quite fond of Kubelik's recording. It's unfortunate that it took so long to be released. I like all of his Wagner recordings, including his Lohengrin which was released about the same time as the 1970 Boulez Parsifal.


Yeah, the Kubelik is a good one. I like Solti's Meistersingers too, both of them. And although it almost borders on heresy to some, I'm very partial to his Tristan, Uhl notwithstanding.


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## Archtop51 (Apr 10, 2011)

I do agree but must say that my first Tristan was Furtwangler and after all these years, none on record come close.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Archtop51 said:


> I do agree but must say that my first Tristan was Furtwangler and after all these years, none on record come close.


Furtwangler is romantic and tragic; his intensity is inward, not hysterical or sensational. No one equals him in the dark magic of his _Liebesnacht._ He makes time stand still for Tristan and Isolde and for us. He gets to the heart of the work.

His was my first _Tristan_ too - and Solti's was my second. Poor Solti.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Furtwangler was my second Tristan, Solti my first - both on vinyl too! I still have them. The Solti had an extra side of a disc of rehearsals.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Furtwangler is romantic and tragic; his intensity is inward, not hysterical or sensational. No one equals him in the dark magic of his _Liebesnacht._ *He makes time stand still for Tristan and Isolde and for us. He gets to the heart of the work.
> *
> His was my first _Tristan_ too - and Solti's was my second. Poor Solti.


Good observation Duck, Furtwangler has the direct lineage of training from the "subjective" german conducting school at BPO coming direct from Wagner:

Von Bulow -> Nikisch -> Furtwangler

Von Bulow himself premiered two Wagner operas Meister & Tristan, his wife Cosima later had affair with Wagner and eventually married him.

Furtwangler worked directly with the Wagner family at Bayreuth during the 1930s, his organic style of conducting (as opposed to Toscaninni strict score adherence) fit the music of wagner like a glove, the music became magic in his hands.......the notes on the page were just guideposts to creating musicical performance in the mind/heart of a musician, a personal experience that could change from night to night, the important point was to create the music event in a flowing artistic form, to let the music unfold in its own way each night.....


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

To be fair to Solti, I think if he had had the chance, he would have re-done Tristan later in his career and with the benefit of experience. Who knows, he might have produced something grand.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> To be fair to Solti, I think if he had had the chance, he would have re-done Tristan later in his career and with the benefit of experience. Who knows, he might have produced something grand.


This thread is about Solti after all


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The OP does invite comparison with other Wagner conductors I suppose.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Solti Tristan was a product of the recording age with an inexperienced conductor (as he himself admitted) and a novice Tristan. This has also happened on Kleibers's Tristan (Price) and Pappano's (Domingo) though probably with more success. The raisin d'être for the Tristan was Nillson not Solti. When Birgit Nilsson was first contracted to Decca she insisted that she wanted to record Tristan und Isolde as a condition of her signature, and that the whole contract turned upon that point. Culshaw gives an extensive account of the negotiations in his autobiography Putting the record straight. The conductor originally suggested was Hans Knappertsbusch, but Culshaw wanted Solti and he got him. He also wanted Wolfgang Windgassen for Tristan, having failed to persuade Jon Vickers to undertake the role. Windgassen was under exclusive contract to DG and Nilsson was not prepared to wait for that contract to expire. Culshaw therefore turned to Fritz Uhl, a tenor who had been around for some time but had never previously undertaken any of the major Wagnerian roles. He reports in his autobiography that Nilsson’s only comment was that she “had never heard of him”.
Culshaw reckoned Kna could not adapt to the recording process so turned to Solti. Why he didn't turn to Karajan who was under contract to Decca at the time and available to make the recording might be an opportunity missed. Karajan was at the time at the height of his powers and with him and Culshaw we might have had something memorable.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> To be fair to Solti, I think if he had had the chance, he would have re-done Tristan later in his career and with the benefit of experience. Who knows, he might have produced something grand.


He was certainly planning to but of course his death put paid to that. He did of course re-record the Ring live at Bayreuth but there were all sorts of problems and they have never been officially issued.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I like many cut my Wagner recording teeth on the Solti Ring but moved onto other versions the more I got pulled into the Wagner world. Nowadays I would probably only listen to Gotterdammerung regularly out of his Ring recording. I also wonder whether many of his recordings in the 60s were more the influence of Culshaw, than Solti himself. The Elektra they did together particularly springs to mind. Solti seemed to produce a warmer sound when Culshaw moved on. That is why I think his Tannhauser is his best recording. Saying that, I do not think he is in the very top tier of Wagner conductors.


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## Archtop51 (Apr 10, 2011)

The reality remains that despite what could or should have been recorded, we have what we have, and to quote what the Godfatherer part 3 uses as it's accurate description, all the power on earth can't change destiny.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jflatter said:


> I like many cut my Wagner recording teeth on the Solti Ring but moved onto other versions the more I got pulled into the Wagner world. Nowadays I would probably only listen to Gotterdammerung regularly out of his Ring recording. I also wonder whether many of his recordings in the 60s were more the influence of Culshaw, than Solti himself. The Elektra they did together particularly springs to mind. Solti seemed to produce a warmer sound when Culshaw moved on. That is why I think his Tannhauser is his best recording. Saying that, I do not think he is in the very top tier of Wagner conductors.


Put two ( big) ego's together and you get your answer


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

jflatter said:


> I like many cut my Wagner recording teeth on the Solti Ring but moved onto other versions the more I got pulled into the Wagner world. Nowadays I would probably only listen to Gotterdammerung regularly out of his Ring recording. I also wonder whether many of his recordings in the 60s were more the influence of Culshaw, than Solti himself. The Elektra they did together particularly springs to mind. Solti seemed to produce a warmer sound when Culshaw moved on. That is why I think his Tannhauser is his best recording. Saying that, I do not think he is in the very top tier of Wagner conductors.


The Ring was certainly Culshaw's baby. He imagined it and persuaded Decca to record it. Certainly Culshaw thought Solti a great Wagnerian conductor, possibly because of his own admission that he preferred over-emphasis rather than under-emphasis. Culshaw once said he found Boulez 'the most boring of competent conductors.' Hence Solti's excitable conducting fitted the bill for him and also his 'Sonicstage' sound effects. 
I think it was the natural evolution of his conducting that made Solti into a 'warmer' conductor. Matured with age.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Michael Bay of Wagner conductors.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> although it almost borders on heresy to some, I'm very partial to his Tristan, Uhl notwithstanding.


I don't have much of a problem with Uhl, to be honest. His is a very human Tristan, and that's no bad thing.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> The Michael Bay of Wagner conductors.


Oh, don't go there.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DavidA said:


> The Solti Tristan was a product of the recording age with an inexperienced conductor (as he himself admitted) and a novice Tristan. This has also happened on Kleibers's Tristan (Price) and Pappano's (Domingo) though probably with more success. The raisin d'être for the Tristan was Nillson not Solti. When Birgit Nilsson was first contracted to Decca she insisted that she wanted to record Tristan und Isolde as a condition of her signature, and that the whole contract turned upon that point. Culshaw gives an extensive account of the negotiations in his autobiography Putting the record straight. The conductor originally suggested was Hans Knappertsbusch, but Culshaw wanted Solti and he got him. He also wanted Wolfgang Windgassen for Tristan, having failed to persuade Jon Vickers to undertake the role. Windgassen was under exclusive contract to DG and Nilsson was not prepared to wait for that contract to expire. Culshaw therefore turned to Fritz Uhl, a tenor who had been around for some time but had never previously undertaken any of the major Wagnerian roles. He reports in his autobiography that Nilsson's only comment was that she "*had never heard of him*".


David I think Nilsson is having some fun with us here, I have several wagner opera recordings released from 1950s at Bayreuth and elsewhere that have Nilsson and Uhl together (in a secondary male role) perhaps Solti Tristan for Decca is the first recording with her and Uhl as principal male singer........I am sure she has seen him and talked to him at rehearsals previously

BTW all this "culshaw" banter has prompted me to order a used copy of his book to go with "golden ring" DVD


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

SOF's avatar pix in all it's glory turns out to be Nilsson having some fun (at Karajan's expense)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> SOF's avatar pix in all it's glory turns out to be Nilsson having some fun (at Karajan's expense)


That Pan-Am bag in the background.:lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> SOF's avatar pix in all it's glory turns out to be Nilsson having some fun (at Karajan's expense)


She actually turned up to rehearsals in the miner's lamp. When Karajan told someone he had had 40 lighting rehearsals the reply was, "I could have got it that dark with one rehearsal."


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> That Pan-Am bag in the background.:lol:


That's what I was going to say!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I find he is one of my favorites for the more straightforward Wagner (Dutchman thru Siegfried Act II and Meistersinger). But later when Wagner gets more sensuous and atmospheric (Siegfried Act III, Gotterdammerung, Tristan, Parsifal) his shall we say "blunt" approach is far less suitable. I still return to him when I really wanna hear that brass roar though.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> David I think Nilsson is having some fun with us here, I have several wagner opera recordings released from 1950s at Bayreuth and elsewhere that have Nilsson and Uhl together (in a secondary male role) perhaps Solti Tristan for Decca is the first recording with her and Uhl as principal male singer........I am sure she has seen him and talked to him at rehearsals previously
> 
> BTW all this "culshaw" banter has prompted me to order a used copy of his book to go with "golden ring" DVD


Is that "Ring Resounding " or his autobiography "Putting the Record Straight ". The latter is a good read too.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I love Solti conducting Wagner. My first introduction to Wagner was his Ring recording. Over 30 Ring recordings later, it is still my favorite and the one I return to most of all. I also may be in the minority, but I find his Tristan electric, and I love his Lohengrin, Tannhauser and 2nd Meistersinger. His Parsifal is beautiful, and his Dutchman is quite good too. I think his Tristan is underrated.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Although I don't care for Solti's _Tristan_ - it was my second recording, my first being the classic Furtwangler (a hard act to follow) - I think he and the singers were ill-served by the recording, which puts the singers into the distance and only exaggerates the frantic edginess of Solti's conducting. When Birgit Nilsson's voice sounds small, you know something is wrong. Culshaw and company got the balances better in the _Ring._


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Although I don't care for Solti's _Tristan_ - it was my second recording, my first being the classic Furtwangler (a hard act to follow) - I think he and the singers were ill-served by the recording, which puts the singers into the distance and only exaggerates the frantic edginess of Solti's conducting. When Birgit Nilsson's voice sounds small, you know something is wrong. Culshaw and company got the balances better in the _Ring._


Interesting that at the time of its release, the critics fell over themselves to praise the Solti Tristan, perhaps a sign of how rare major Wagner recordings were then.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that at the time of its release, the critics fell over themselves to praise the Solti Tristan, perhaps a sign of how rare major Wagner recordings were then.


I think the Solti _Tristan_ was the first one in stereo, and was possibly many listeners' introduction to the exciting new Wagnerian soprano, Birgit Nilsson (who, like Flagstad when she was "new," was over 40 - a lesson for young aspiring Isoldes?). I remember that I was quite thrilled to acquire it, but with Furtwangler already in my ear, as well as the classic recording of the love duet by Melchior and Leider, it was more or less an instant letdown. If I want to hear Nilsson's Isolde, the 1966 Bohm/Bayreuth recording represents better her characterization (sharpened as a result of working with Wieland Wagner) and the sheer physical impact of her voice.

One critic who didn't fall all over himself to praise the Solti was Conrad L. Osborne in High Fidelity magazine. Osborne was the most perceptive opera critic I've ever encountered; I learned an incalculable amount from him about singing, and he was an excellent guide to recordings, particularly to Wagner. His reviews should be collected into a reference volume.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I think the Solti _Tristan_ was the first one in stereo, and was possibly many listeners' introduction to the exciting new Wagnerian soprano, Birgit Nilsson (who, like Flagstad when she was "new," was over 40 - a lesson for young aspiring Isoldes?).


One fact that blew me away when I first learned it was that Nilsson was younger than Varnay by a month. They seem like entirely different eras, and Nilsson was performing full Ring cycles into the 1970s.

I joked (perhaps after a couple of glasses of a beverage) about Solti earlier up thread. I do think his Ring is far from a top recommendation for me, but his Tannhauser and his second Meistersinger are quite good, among the best for each of those operas and the Lohengrin isn't bad.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> One fact that blew me away when I first learned it was that Nilsson was younger than Varnay by a month. They seem like entirely different eras, and Nilsson was performing full Ring cycles into the 1970s.
> 
> I joked (perhaps after a couple of glasses of a beverage) about Solti earlier up thread. I do think his Ring is far from a top recommendation for me, but his Tannhauser and his second Meistersinger are quite good, among the best for each of those operas and the Lohengrin isn't bad.


Varnay, I think, was pushed into the heaviest Wagner parts before she was 30, during the war years after Flagstad went home to Norway. Her earliest recordings reveal a brighter, less heavy and cumbersome sound. There's a live Sieglinde that's just superb. I barely recognized her.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I think the Solti _Tristan_ was the first one in stereo, and was possibly many listeners' introduction to the exciting new Wagnerian soprano, Birgit Nilsson (who, like Flagstad when she was "new," was over 40 - a lesson for young aspiring Isoldes?). I remember that I was quite thrilled to acquire it, but with Furtwangler already in my ear, as well as the classic recording of the love duet by Melchior and Leider, it was more or less an instant letdown. If I want to hear Nilsson's Isolde, the 1966 Bohm/Bayreuth recording represents better her characterization (sharpened as a result of working with Wieland Wagner) and the sheer physical impact of her voice.
> 
> One critic who didn't fall all over himself to praise the Solti was Conrad L. Osborne in High Fidelity magazine. *Osborne was the most perceptive opera critic I've ever encountered; I learned an incalculable amount from him about singing, and he was an excellent guide to recordings, particularly to Wagner. His reviews should be collected into a reference volume*.


So glad you mentioned this! I've looked him up and have found a web archive of High Fidelity and am currently looking through the Wagner Issue Nov 1966; thanks for the lead!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

cheftimmyr said:


> So glad you mentioned this! I've looked him up and have found a web archive of High Fidelity and am currently looking through the Wagner Issue Nov 1966; thanks for the lead!


Well, thank YOU! I remember that issue vividly - (I was so young and impressionable then :lol - and will look it up myself.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Is that "Ring Resounding " or his autobiography "Putting the Record Straight ". The latter is a good read too.


I find myself re-reading both of them over and over. He's quite a good writer and they're packed with fascinating details. It makes me want to acquire all of the recordings he talks about (I've got a pretty good start on that).


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