# virtuosity



## jovana95

Can someone pls explain me, why do we say for some instruments that they are virtuous, and some don't? -for example cello is virtuoso instrument, but double bass is not.


----------



## Valjuan

I've never actually heard instruments themselves being referred to as "virtuosic", usually this term is applied to the performer. What's the context of where you heard that?


----------



## Pugg

> What's the context of where you heard that?


That's what I like to know also.


----------



## EdwardBast

The term virtuoso as a noun is used almost exclusively for soloists who have mastered the most difficult solo literature for their instrument. Often, the most difficult solo literature consists of concertos specially written for virtuosos. The term tends only to be applied to those who play an instrument on which one can hope to support a career as a soloist. So we mostly hear about piano, violin, and cello virtuosos, although it is applied occasionally to flutists, trumpeters, etc. 

The reason you don't hear about double bass virtuosos is because no one makes a living playing solo bass music and virtually no one writes concertos for the instrument.

The noun virtuosity is used to describe supreme skill on any instrument, whether or not it is a common instrument for touring soloists.


----------



## hpowders

jovana95 said:


> Can someone pls explain me, why do we say for some instruments that they are virtuous, and some don't? -for example cello is virtuoso instrument, but double bass is not.


Who said the double bass isn't a virtuoso instrument? The Bach cello suites have been transcribed for double bass and anyone who can play those notes at tempo with excellent intonation is a full-fledged virtuoso of the double-bass.


----------



## KenOC

Bottesini certainly considered the bull fiddle a virtuosic instrument, and so did his audiences evidently. He was known as "The Paganini of the double bass."

Added: Edgar Meyer is a current double bass virtuoso and has written two concertos for that instrument. I've heard one -- it was very good.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

KenOC said:


> Bottesini certainly considered the bull fiddle a virtuosic instrument


Quite so, here's Bottesini's _Gran Duo_, gloriously played by the talented father/daughter combination of Alina Ibragimova and Rinat Ibragimov:






It's one of my favourite finds on YouTube. Well worth watching all the way through but, for the impatient, 10:44 is as good a place as any to start.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

Just about all instruments are capable of virtuosity, except (arguably) the very simplest such as the triangle. In the eighteenth century, there was actually quite a broad range of instruments that could be used as soloists, notably most wind and brass, which had solo concerti written for them by Haydn and Mozart, while Bach used a variety of instruments as soloists in his Brandenburg concerti, as well as a great variety of solo instruments in his sacred music. Trumpet parts in the Baroque period were often particularly notable for their virtuoso character.
During the nineteenth century, however, the piano and violin came to occupy center stage as instruments regarded as soloists, with Dvořák's Cello Concerto and Brahms' Double Concerto being relatively unusual for their time. It was only in the twentienth century that composers started to treat all instruments equally, including the hitherto neglected percussion and, yes, bass; with various modernists being particularly unstinting in their instrumental demands, not only in solo works, but also in large ensemble and chamber works.


----------



## jovana95

Our professor told us that cello is harder to play than bass, because its virtuous instrument, and double bass is not..


----------



## jovana95

My teacher said that.  really I didn`t know that. I don`t play bass nor cello, so I really don`t know much about it. But, now I know a little bit more. Thanks.


----------



## jovana95

I haven`t heard Bottesini till know and I can tell that its sounds wonderful and virtuous. Thank you. I`m going to open the debate with professor in our next class.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

jovana95 said:


> I haven`t heard Bottesini till know and I can tell that its sounds wonderful and virtuous. Thank you. I`m going to open the debate with professor in our next class.


I'm not sure if English is your native language or not, but I'd just like to point out that the word "virtuous" means "morally good". The adjective you want is "virtuosic".  (Those naughty, naughty basses...)


----------



## Nate Miller

hpowders said:


> Who said the double bass isn't a virtuoso instrument? The Bach cello suites have been transcribed for double bass and anyone who can play those notes at tempo with excellent intonation is a full-fledged virtuoso of the double-bass.


he's not talking about what is possible, or about what unique players have done

Bela Flek is a fantastic player, but banjo is still not a virtuoso instrument.

It has more to do with tradition and the body of works in the instruments solo repertoire. The cello suites were transcribed for bass, but actually written for the cello.

and FWIW, I've played with some upright bass players that were virtuoso players in my double life and a jazz guitarist. But I didn't consider the bass a virtuoso instrument because of its very nature. I've had lots of friends that are professional bass players (that comes in handy when you are a working musician) I have heard them describe their instrument as "a contact sport" or "like playing a dog house with strings on it". So the sheer force and energy required to operate the instrument is why nobody in their right mind writes virtuosic parts for the double bass. They give those parts to the cello so they get played and have done with it.


----------



## JACE

Nate Miller said:


> FWIW, I've played with some upright bass players that were virtuoso players in my double life and a jazz guitarist. But I didn't consider the bass a virtuoso instrument because of its very nature. I've had lots of friends that are professional bass players (that comes in handy when you are a working musician) I have heard them describe their instrument as "a contact sport" or "like playing a dog house with strings on it". So the sheer force and energy required to operate the instrument is why nobody in their right mind writes virtuosic parts for the double bass. They give those parts to the cello so they get played and have done with it.


But Nate wouldn't you regard Charles Mingus as a *virtuoso* of the bass? Or Ray Brown? Or Oscar Pettiford? Or Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen? Or George Mraz?


----------



## Nate Miller

JACE said:


> But Nate wouldn't you regard Charles Mingus as a *virtuoso* of the bass? Or Ray Brown? Or Oscar Pettiford? Or Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen? Or George Mraz?


no, absolutely I would.

but what Ed was getting at is that in the tradition, the double bass is not a virtuoso instrument. That doesn't mean that there are no virtuoso bass players.

I think a better illustrative example of this is probably the banjo. Bela Fleck is a virtuoso player, but the banjo is not a virtuoso instrument. There are no concertos written for banjo and orchestra. Brahms never wrote for solo banjo...that sort of thing

its commonly accepted that the violin and the cello are the virtuoso instruments from the string section

I'm not sure if there are any instruments in the brass and wind sections are not considered virtuoso instruments. It would be good to hear from some players from those sections


----------



## Heck148

hpowders said:


> Who said the double bass isn't a virtuoso instrument? The Bach cello suites have been transcribed for double bass and anyone who can play those notes at tempo with excellent intonation is a full-fledged virtuoso of the double-bass.


Exactly - Bottesini and Dragonetti wrote virtuoso concerti and solo pieces for 2ble bass...Koussevitsky was regarded as a virtuoso on bass, and in more recent times Gary Karr is certainly regarded as a bass virtuoso.


----------



## Matthewv789

The bass has been a virtuoso instrument for hundreds of years, but it's true, few players played it that way for most of its history. Often the only real virtuosi might be the few composers writing terribly difficult solo pieces for themselves, like Dragonetti and Bottesini. But now there are lots!

I don't think anyone could accuse Mikyung Sung of being anything but a virtuoso, for instance. And my hope is she will join the rarified company of people like Gary Karr and Francois Rabbath who have, indeed, made their career as solo players.


----------



## millionrainbows

EdwardBast said:


> The reason you don't hear about double bass virtuosos is because no one makes a living playing solo bass music and virtually no one writes concertos for the instrument.


I think in jazz the "bass virtuoso" is more prevalent. Does Jaco Pastorius count?

And Edgar Meyer, who has dabbled in classical, is certainly one. He adapted Bach's solo cello pieces for bass.


----------



## Bwv 1080




----------



## TMHeimer

I too have never heard that term referring to an instrument rather than a performer. I've probably played with them all as a pro since 1973.


----------

