# The Rhinemaidens were pretty stupid



## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

Sheesh, first they go blabbering about exactly how to use the gold they're "guarding" to fashion a ring that'd make Frodo blush--reminds me of the stereotypical James Bond scene where the arch-villain, positive that Bond is going to meet certain doom, reveals the entirety of his secret plot.

Then, it seems they didn't actually have, you know, a *plan* for dealing with someone who did try to steal the gold. Why not surround it with magical unquenchable fire? We know it exists 

Don't send a Rhinemaiden to do a Rhineman's job, I guess...

_Please note: The above post is in jest; in fact, I fully support the Goddess' Rights movement._


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

nefigah said:


> *The Rhinemaidens were pretty stupid.*


Well, it could have been worse. If Wagner had hewn to the original sources in myth & legend, Alberich would have scooped up the gold that was _just lying there unattended_, and set about his work.

Most _Ring Cycle_ characters are based on materials in various legends, but the "Rhine-daughters" (or Rhinemaidens) are Wagner's own creation. All of this is covered in (among other places) Deryck Cooke's "I Saw the World End." He said something like (I'm working from memory here) 'Wagner recognized that it would be inferior stagecraft to have Alberich simply pluck the gold from an untenanted Rhine.' D)

We frequently see this in Wagner. When the Master of Bayreuth varies from his source-material, it is commonly to advantage.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Hmmm. When I saw the cycle I thought it was Siegfried who was being the complete goofball. He runs around boasting, slays an innocent dragon (who is not really a dragon), breaks his father's symbolic spear with no remorse, leave his new found love on a mountaintop to go off and drink a love potion and fall in love with someone not nearly so interesting.

I wouldn't have left her up there.

I've wondered if his incident with the bird is where we get the expression "a little bird told me" when we have info we shouldn't know -- if that came from the myth or this opera. Or if it's totally unrelated.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Weston said:


> [Siegfried] runs around boasting, slays an innocent dragon...


How innocent was he? When Siegfried first encounters the dragon, he doesn't start meleéing, he says "are you going to teach me fear?!" The dragon replies "I was thirsty when I woke up, but now I see that there's some meat for me to snack on, too!"


Weston said:


> breaks his father's symbolic spear with no remorse


I know I'm quibbling somewhat... but it's his _grand_father's spear. Also, when brandished before Siegfried, Wotan says "this spear foiled your father" (a reference to Siegmund's fall in *Walküre*) "and it's ready to foil you, as well!" Siegfried understandably responds "my father's slayer stands before me!? Glorious revenge is about to be mine!"


Weston said:


> leave his new found love on a mountaintop to go off and drink a love potion and fall in love with someone not nearly so interesting...I wouldn't have left her up there.


I *like* this observation. Thanks for sharing it with us, *Weston*.

Submitted for your perusal... a retrospective of observations about Siegfried, starting with this post.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I was teasing with all those comments. The Ring Cycle was _my first experience with opera_ and I watched it all in one week, about two years ago via DVD. The only other opera I've seen since is _Fidelio_ and it simply does not compare, however much Beethoven may be my hero.

I probably need to see a different version of the Ring Cycle. I found it very hard to focus on both the music and the libretto simultaneously the first time, even with annotations at hand. I'd like to see a traditional presentation with period costumes and sets, but scarcely anyone does that any more. I'd be happy with any recommendations (but I am sure they are in other threads like the one linked above).

The version I saw was the Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele, Pierre Boulez conducting, ca. 1980. The four productions progress from traditional presentation in _Das Rheingold_ to roughly early 1900's settings in _Gotterdammerung_. Most of you Wagnerites are probably well familiar with this. I was singularly awed by Donald McIntyre's Wotan. But again I was a compete novice to opera when I experienced this -- and still am I suppose.


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

I too hope I didn't step on any toes with my facetious comments  I'm listening through Das Rheingold with libretto in hand.

*Weston*, like you, I'm finding it to be quite challenging to do! I have a bit of OCD, I guess, in that I need to make sure I'm always reading exactly synched with what's being sung. This often means I have to keep refinding my place by matching up with the German text, and let's just say my German ain't great  I'd like it if my faculties were a bit more free to focus on picking out leitmotifs and just plain listening to the music (which I can already definitely say, even only having listened for a couple hours, is very beautiful). But I want to make sure that I listen through at least once with careful attention to the words. I'm investigating DVDs for filmed performance also; I'll let you know!


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

If we think about it for a minute, many of the characters in opera are fairly dense (otherwise the story line wouldn't get far).

It's sort of like cheap horror movies, where the frightened character ALWAYS goes up into the attic or down into the cellar. We want to holler at the screen "Don't go up there, you idiot!"

I've had fun playing no-so-bright characters in opera. I was in the chorus in Giovanni, and was one of Masetto's henchmen whom Giovanni fools into running off into the woods. Duh.

And when I sang Antonio the gardener in Marriage of Figaro, there were plenty of places where the old boy hasn't got his thinking cap on. I asked my stage director whether to play the character "drunk" (some versions have him staggering all over the place) but he said to do it straight. By myself, I practiced both drunk and sober (but still not too bright) versions just in case.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

a fish-sized brain in a human sized deity / demigoddess will tend to do that....


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it, the story of the Ring - like most opera stories - is pretty impossible. I think composers, having gained the suspension of disbelief, push it as far as it will go. Like Speilberg's ridiculous ending to Jaws - but it doesn't seem so after two hours of action. As Speilberg's said: 'I've had them for two hours so I'll keep them for five more minutes!'


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it, the story of the Ring - like most opera stories - is pretty impossible. I think composers, having gained the suspension of disbelief, push it as far as it will go. Like Speilberg's ridiculous ending to Jaws - but it doesn't seem so after two hours of action. As Speilberg's said: 'I've had them for two hours so I'll keep them for five more minutes!'


Somehow, that is still rather different from "I've had them for sixteen hours so I'll keep them for another fifty minutes."


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it, the story of the Ring - like most opera stories - is pretty impossible


Oh, really. Because I though that when Wagner decided to set his story in mythological times of Gods, superhuman heroes and magic, he wanted it to be as "possible" as it gets.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

They are spirits of nature, they aren't stupid they are careless. They represent the innocence of nature that can be trusted to guard something of value because they can only see it as something pretty. They just as innocently worship the sun as they thoughtlessly drown people, as well as giving away the gold's secrets because the curse of renouncing love makes little sense to them. When Alberich makes a grab for the gold they still ascribe his actions to love.

The idea of Alberich just finding the gold laying about makes sense if you just regard it as some fragment of nature and the maidens are giving it voice. He steals from nature because nature allows it even though nature "knows" how destructive it will be. It's a fairly faithful depiction of fairies of European tradition, they are far-seeing but uncomprehending, they are as cruel as they are sweet as they barely understand the world of motives.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Consider that the Rhinegold is a metaphor for their virginity. #literarycriticism


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Consider that the Rhinegold is a metaphor for their virginity. #literarycriticism


Damn, 3 at once, no refractory period? Them Niebelungen are straight up studs.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Asking politely, pleading, cajoling and threatening for the return of your virginity rarely works, so i'm told.

From a romantic nationalism point of view the gold might represent the innocent power of the german people which is taken and misused by heroes, tyrants and thinly veiled stereotypes. The virgin in the story though I think is better located in Siegfried. An attempt at a natural, pure being despite his unnatural parentage whose travels and onanistic slaying of a dragon merely sets him on the path of corruption that involves deliberate, if unthinking, renunciation of his virginity.

The maidens specifically say that if you capture them they will become dutiful but despite their charms people who meet them are more interested in their gold not their sex, They are highly sensual beings but not really obtainable, people want them because they are desirable but it is lust they can easily avoid. The don't lament for a symbolic rape with the gold gone, they whine like grounded children who have had their toys taken away.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Consider that the Rhinegold is a metaphor for their virginity. #literarycriticism


If so, then when Alberich forsakes love to take their virginity he becomes Don Giovanni? And the wham-bang-thank you m'am approach invests him somehow with complete earthly power including, via the helm, the ability to become invisible? And Brunhilde giving the Rheingold back to the Rhine is a symbol of... what? Now I'm confused.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Consider that the Rhinegold is a metaphor for their virginity. #literarycriticism


I think panties would work better. That's why at the end of Das Rheingold, the gods all laughed when the Rhine maidens wanted their panties back.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

I like them  Flirty and playful.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

What I really want to see is Indiana Jones cast in the role Wotan...I wonder what that would look like?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

quack said:


> Asking politely, pleading, cajoling and threatening for the return of your virginity rarely works, so i'm told.


Well it didn't work, now did it? Trying to reverse the proceedings once the cat was out of the bag was indeed as futile as asking for one's virginity back.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The rhine maidens do something stupid ? Well, people do stupid things . They're nowhere near as stupid as Michele 
Bachmann and Sarah Palin , though .
In order to gain the rhinegold, you have to foreswear and renounce love, not sex, that is . The girls don't think anyone
could be so rash as to do something this extreme, but they soon realize how wrong they were .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

When we Alberich steal the gold, we wonder if it that easy, why someone hadn't nicked it long ago.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

superhorn said:


> The rhine maidens do something stupid ? Well, people do stupid things .


They aren't people. That's what I was trying to emphasise, what you regard as stupid they wouldn't comprehend. You would probably think guarding gold is a solemn duty, they would think it fun. You might see renouncing love as a means to an end, to them it is absurd. They almost certainly don't learn their lesson as to think in such worldly terms is alien to them.

It seems a common form of criticism: judging a character by your own standards and declaring them stupid for not doing as you would do, instead of judging them within the confines of the world the author creates. Judging a Verdian 19th century peasant or Puccini's bohemian artist or a Donizetti queen this way is strange enough, but imagining a mythical river maiden, from a world full of magic and interfering gods, would think like you, is silly.



DavidA said:


> When we Alberich steal the gold, we wonder if it that easy, why someone hadn't nicked it long ago.


Or why it took Eve so long. Alberich is the corruption that is able to realise the beauty of the Rhine or the will of the German people can be taken and used. Once it is used even a god like Wotan feels its seduction.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

quack said:


> They aren't people. That's what I was trying to emphasise, what you regard as stupid they wouldn't comprehend. You would probably think guarding gold is a solemn duty, they would think it fun. You might see renouncing love as a means to an end, to them it is absurd. They almost certainly don't learn their lesson as to think in such worldly terms is alien to them.
> 
> It seems a common form of criticism: judging a character by your own standards and declaring them stupid for not doing as you would do, instead of judging them within the confines of the world the author creates. Judging a Verdian 19th century peasant or Puccini's bohemian artist or a Donizetti queen this way is strange enough, but imagining a mythical river maiden, from a world full of magic and interfering gods, would think like you, is silly.
> 
> Or why it took Eve so long. Alberich is the corruption that is able to realise the beauty of the Rhine or the will of the German people can be taken and used. Once it is used even a god like Wotan feels its seduction.


Let's stop trying to make sense of this. It is an absurd story set to music, some of which is pretty good.

I watched Cosi fan Tutte last night. I've given up trying to make sense of just how the girls were deceived. Suspend your disbelief and let the music take over!


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Let's stop trying to make sense of this. It is an absurd story set to music, some of which is pretty good.


Now you're thinking like a rhinemaiden.

Absurdity though I love to understand.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

quack said:


> Now you're thinking like a rhinemaiden.
> 
> Absurdity though I love to understand.


No. Just like someone with sense!


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it, the story of the Ring - like most opera stories - is pretty impossible. I think composers, having gained the suspension of disbelief, push it as far as it will go. Like Speilberg's ridiculous ending to Jaws - but it doesn't seem so after two hours of action. As Speilberg's said: 'I've had them for two hours so I'll keep them for five more minutes!'


Improbable, maybe. Ridiculous, IYOO.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Theory A: The Rhinemaidens overestimated their own hotness. They are like the mean girls in high school. How could anyone forsake love for gold with the likes of them frolicking nearby?

Theory B: Wagner with his roving eye just created the three extraneous comprimario roles as an excuse to incorporate three nubile young female singers in the cast and up the potential for backstage shenanigans. :devil:


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## Vox Gabrieli (Jan 9, 2017)

Weston said:


> Hmmm. When I saw the cycle I thought it was Siegfried who was being the complete goofball. He runs around boasting, slays an innocent dragon (who is not really a dragon), breaks his father's symbolic spear with no remorse, leave his new found love on a mountaintop to go off and drink a love potion and fall in love with someone not nearly so interesting.
> 
> I wouldn't have left her up there.
> 
> I've wondered if his incident with the bird is where we get the expression "a little bird told me" when we have info we shouldn't know -- if that came from the myth or this opera. Or if it's totally unrelated.


Brunhilde is a lot more interesting when played by Gwyneth Jones!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

> The Rhinemaidens were pretty stupid


And so was Alberich for trying to impress Wotan and Loge and so being tricked into losing the gold.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Hey! Knock Alberich, Mime and Hagen all you want, but lay off the Rhinemaidens!!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> And so was Alberich for trying to impress Wotan and Loge and so being tricked into losing the gold.


There's me thinking, you found this thread.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Just when you thought you were out, they pulled you back in. Much like the Rheintochter!:lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Just when you thought you were out, they pulled you back in. Much like the Rheintochter!:lol:


Just like Loreley by Alfredo Catalani.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't think the girls are actually stupid when they reveal the secret of the gold to Alberich . They think no one would actually be willing to forsake love altogether (not the same thing as sex ) and state this in no uncertain terms . But the dwarf proves them wrong . And boy are they surprised !


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Weston said:


> The only other opera I've seen since is _Fidelio_ and it simply does not compare, however much Beethoven may be my hero.


Well I'm mad for The Ring and Beethoven, but I don't think this is really a fair statement. They are apples and oranges. Fidelio is a great opera, and so is The Ring. I appreciate both for what they are. You should give Mozart and Verdi a go.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

superhorn said:


> I don't think the girls are actually stupid when they reveal the secret of the gold to Alberich . They think no one would actually be willing to forsake love altogether (not the same thing as sex ) and state this in no uncertain terms . But the dwarf proves them wrong . And boy are they surprised !


This is exactly right. Definitely the were foolish, but you explained it perfectly. They have some of the best music in the Ring so I love them.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> Well I'm mad for The Ring and Beethoven, but I don't think this is really a fair statement. They are apples and oranges. Fidelio is a great opera, and so is The Ring. I appreciate both for what they are. You should give Mozart and Verdi a go.


I say Amen to this.


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