# Schubert symphonies numbering



## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I'm confused about the numbers given to Schubert symphonies. I usually see "The Great" listed as 9 but I've also seen it as 8 (e.g. on the Berliner Philharmoniker website) or even 7. And some of the others have been given different numbers as well. What's the story here?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Symphony no. 1 complete
Symphony no. 2 complete
Symphony no. 3 complete
Symphony no. 4 complete
Symphony no. 5 complete
Symphony no. 6 complete
Symphony no. 7 incomplete, only sketches really, so sometimes this is crossed off the numbering system
Symphony no. 8 more than half complete, in old editions because the 7th is not orchestrated the 8th gets shifted down and called the 7th instead
Symphony no. 9 complete, in old editions because they didn't number the sketched 7th, it gets shifted down to 8 instead. For the sake of only numbering all the "complete" symphonies it is not surprising that this could get shifted down to 7 and the sketch 7th and half-done 8th aren't numbered with the rest.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I've also read it's more commonly called Symphony 9 in the United States and Symphony 8 in Europe so depending on where you live or what CD release or website you look at it, it can be either or. I've got a couple CD's where it has the "Unfinished" 8th listed as 7 and then in parenthesis (8) and the "Great" as 8 (9).

Mozart is weird too where his final Symphony is 41 but yet you will see Symphony No. 55 which was written early on but they didn't discover it until later, although the authenticity of a lot of those Symphonies are in question because there is no autographed score but many of them are still considered genuine Mozart works. But, yeah it can get confusing with numberings.


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## isridgewell (Jul 2, 2013)

It is largely believed that No 7 "The Gasteiner" is missing. Arthur Sullivan went to search the archive of Schubert's publishing house (which at the time was quite extensive and in a bit of a mess) but had no luck. In more recent times Sir Charles Mackerras (a Sullivan admirer) also went with the idea of taking up where Sullivan left off but again with no luck. Sadly to date their is no trace of this 7th and it remains lost.

There are remnants of another symphony that is incomplete (recorded in a finished version by Mackerras) and this is generally numbered/accepted to be number 10.

The problem with Schubert is that in his short lifetime he managed to write a huge amount of music, most of which went unpublished for years and circulated mostly among friends and colleagues in manuscript form.

Schubert is also the classic example of a composer who really came to prominence after his death and consequently his works existed in various manuscripts unpublished and published in various locations!

The situation has become so confused that some scholars now argue that the missing Gasteiner 7th Symphony never existed and that Schubert only ever completed 8 symphonies. 

This is the problem when numbers are added to symphonies retrospectively by historians and publishers!


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm not convinced No. 7 even exists, so we should wipe that off the list, and list the B minor as No. 7 and the Great as No. 8.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's considered today that Schubert's Symphony #7 is represented by an incomplete draft dating from 1821 (and completions exist). In the 19th century, though, #7 was presumed to be lost, the so-called "Gastein Symphony," but to have survived as a four-hand piano transcription called the "Grand Duo" D.812. Schumann talked the fine violinist Joseph Joachim into orchestrating the Grand Duo, and it was conducted occasionally by Brahms and quite a few others into the 20th century as Schubert's #7.

It is now known that the Grand Duo is an original four-hand piano work and not a transcription of a lost symphony. But Joachim's transcription as a symphony is still floating around and is available on a variety of recordings. It's really very good, although the finale is (to my ears) weak.


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