# Timbre: do you prefer bright or dark?



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

do you prefer singers with bright, crystalline voices or rich, dark voices? personally, I have a strong preference for dark voices with the exception of sopranos, whom I like more medium-bright (Anna Moffo, prime Joan Sutherland, etc). too bright though and it becomes sugary, girly, weak bodied. with male voices in particular, a darker timbre comes off much more full, rich, "acoustically complete" if you will. bright baritones sound like tenors and bright basses like baritones while bright tenors sound nasal, teenager-y and baseless (no pun intended)

of course, all things in moderation. I do hear the occasion bass which sounds like a neanderthal, contralto which sounds like a countertenor or tenor sans sufficient resonance above an A which leaves me wanting for a more effervescent voice. 

somewhat paradoxically, I tend to like lyric voices which are a little darker (schwarzkopf), more elegant and more luxurious and dramatic voices which are a little brighter (Nilsson, Milnes) and able to soar over an orchestra with heroic, spinning high notes.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Bright for female voices and dark for male voices in most repertoire, for Wagner it would probably depend on the role more for males but I prefer darker, stronger female voices.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I actually prefer bright baritones, but that's just me. They don't sound in any way like tenors to me. I like all kinds of voices if they are well sung, but some people have a straightjacket requirement that a baritone needs to sound like chocolate pudding in order to be "correct." 

As for sopranos, I'm probably weird because I really don't care much about them either way. As long as they don't have an ugly vibrato, off pitch or too breathy, they pretty much sound all the same to me really. 

I think I like mezzos better, to be honest.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've always gravitated more toward brightly colored voices, but my ideal would be a voice that contains both bright and dark elements. I will say, though, that in general dark voices are easier for me to listen to _at great length_; the danger with bright voices is that they can get a little "wearing" after a while.

I agree completely with what graziesignore above says about "bright baritones" -- hence my love for Sherrill Milnes, Thomas Allen, and Quinn Kelsey, each of whom I hear as basically bright in color (with some dark mixed in). With baritones I do like clarity, light and shade; when they get too dark they tend to sound like mud to me.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I actually prefer bright baritones, but that's just me. They don't sound in any way like tenors to me. I like all kinds of voices if they are well sung, but some people have a straightjacket requirement that a baritone needs to sound like chocolate pudding in order to be "correct."


guilty as charged (the same holds doubly true of basses). of course, there are exceptions (I'm quite fond of Peter Mattei, who does not have a dark voice by any stretch of the word. in fact he is far more pleasant than most of the more "barking" breed of baritones, both in timbre and phrasing)



> I think I like mezzos better, to be honest.


can't say I blame you. your run of the mill coloratura/light lyric soprano does little for me. I like both mezzos and sopranos, but am more picky about the latter (middle weight sopranos like spintos, dramatic coloraturas are far more interesting and have more to offer imo).


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I agree completely with what graziesignore above says about "bright baritones" -- hence my love for Sherrill Milnes, Thomas Allen, and Quinn Kelsey, each of whom I hear as basically bright in color (with some dark mixed in). With baritones I do like clarity, light and shade; *when they get too dark they tend to sound like mud to me*.


then you'll want to stay away from my voice and it's bass-like timbre


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I would also add in Giorgio Zancanaro, perhaps the brightest of all baritones (and not everyone's cup of tea, but I loved him.) Actually come to think of it I've never heard a baritone timbre that I really disliked. I tend to be more critical of how singers breathe, rather than their timbre, but that's another subject.

I do think bright baritones sound better at being eeeeeevil. Chocolate pudding baritones are, by and large, too lovable to be evil. 

On a related note, can someone tell me what the term "woofy" means? I mean, I think I understand, but I maybe don't know what people are talking about. I often see this or that baritone derided as "woofy."

So many sopranos sound harsh and metallic to me, or too light. It's very hard for me to find a middle ground. I am also a Moffo fan.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I would also add in Giorgio Zancanaro, perhaps the brightest of all baritones (and not everyone's cup of tea, but I loved him.) Actually come to think of it I've never heard a baritone timbre that I really disliked. I tend to be more critical of how singers breathe, rather than their timbre, but that's another subject.


well, a singer can't exactly go into the practice room and totally revamp their timbre, so that's probably more fair of you



> I do think bright baritones sound better at being eeeeeevil. Chocolate pudding baritones are, by and large, too lovable to be evil.


I think the opposite. dark baritones are more formidable, and, thus, better villains



> On a related note, can someone tell me what the term "woofy" means? I mean, I think I understand, but I maybe don't know what people are talking about. I often see this or that baritone derided as "woofy."


basically, a "woofy" sound is an overly covered, often throaty sound which lacks a resonant ring to it (it often occurs when a brighter voiced singer attempts to manufacture the sound to be darker. it can also happen for the opposite reason: a singer with a heavier and/or lower voice attempting to sing rep which is too high for them.



> So many sopranos sound harsh and metallic to me, or too light. It's very hard for me to find a middle ground. I am also a Moffo fan.


same, I'm not a huge fan of metallic singing in general (it comes across colder, less rhythmic, more banal)


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> then you'll want to stay away from my voice and it's bass-like timbre


Oh well, I also love Alessandro Corbelli, who has a very dark timbre -- more bass-baritone than baritone, in fact. Dark voices are great and, as I said, easier for me to listen to for long stretches. It's just that there's a faction of voice-fanciers who seem to think something along the lines of 'all bright baritones are really Heldentenors,' which I think is ridiculous.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mainly darker timbres in the abstract, but in opera it often depends on the role. Bright sopranos I can find downright irritating, but there are rare exceptions like Nilsson and Sutherland, whose brilliance was amazingly free of harshness or edginess. A bright tenor can be either annoying or exciting, depending on whether the voice has sufficient body; Corelli's voice, for example, was thrillingly brilliant but also full-bodied. A certain amount of brightness is needed in any voice, but especially in low voices, to avoid dullness. An ideal voice, for dramatic purposes, has enough darkness to convey a range of emotions and enough brightness to be viscerally exciting, and belongs to a singer with the imagination to exploit its range of color.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Mainly darker timbres in the abstract, but in opera it often depends on the role. Bright sopranos I can find downright irritating, but there are rare exceptions like Nilsson and Sutherland, whose brilliance was amazingly free of harshness or edginess. A bright tenor can be either annoying or exciting, depending on whether the voice has sufficient body; Corelli's voice, for example, was thrillingly brilliant but also full-bodied. A certain amount of brightness is needed in any voice, but especially in low voices, to avoid dullness. An ideal voice, for dramatic purposes, has enough darkness to convey a range of emotions and enough brightness to be viscerally exciting, and belongs to a singer with the imagination to exploit its range of color.


your distinction between full bodied brightness (Nilsson, Sutherland, Corelli, Milnes) vs more empty brightness (which, has you said, often has a harsher quality along with it) is an important one.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> your distinction between full bodied brightness (Nilsson, Sutherland, Corelli, Milnes) vs more empty brightness (which, has you said, often has a harsher quality along with it) is an important one.


It _is_ important. The Met featured a Lucia (name forgotten - Russian I think) recently whose relentlessly bright timbre I found tiring. Sutherland never had that wearisome brightness, dazzling as her high voice was. The melancholy Lucy, for me, needs some darkness in the tone to be fully convincing as a character, which is why (well, part of why) I favor Callas in the part. After all, it's Scotland. It rains all the time. Enough to drive a melancholic type around the bend, even without a mean family. With Callas I feel instantly melancholy - in a good way!

Among dramatic sopranos, Nilsson's brightness, which admittedly not everyone likes, is unique. It's like a platinum sword that's so sharp it doesn't even hurt when it slices through you. It's largely the quality of "edge" that makes bright voices tiring, and her voice, in her prime, didn't have a harsh edge even on a high C. A phenomenon. Of course her lower register, while sufficiently strong, isn't rich or expressive in quality. Varnay, whose voice is much darker, has a lot of edge, and I find her hard to listen to in the soprano range. I like her better in mezzo roles, where she can really exploit her deep low notes. Flagstad's voice, for my taste, has a beautiful balance between dark and bright, with just enough edge to give poignancy to a basically warm, rich timbre. Such beauty in a huge voice is a phenomenon too.

I should also mention Helen Traubel, the "forgotten" Wagnerian. A voice both dark and bright. Really a wonderful voice.


----------



## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I prefer Contralto's to any other Female voice type, not that picky about Male voices. In general I much prefer a vocal timbre that is right for the context of the part / piece. Fx. having the wrong timbre Voice (to old or dark) sing a Schubert lieder or the male part in DLVE just seems completely wrong to me, or if someone to "light" in tonal colour is cast to sing Boris Godunov (it has to be a Russian type Basso Profundo, once heard Bryn Terfel sing"I have attained supreme power" and it was pitiful and lacking in depth, and Terfel is one of a select few "modern" baritone's that I enjoy thoroughly (the rest of the arias and songs he sang at that recital was wonderful!)) 

/ptr


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It _is_ important. The Met featured a Lucia (name forgotten - Russian I think) recently whose relentlessly bright timbre I found tiring. Sutherland never had that wearisome brightness, dazzling as her high voice was.


Sutherland has often been accused of having a "damp" sound to the voice, but it is this quality which was simultaneously more melancholic and more heroic. however, the length of time I can listen to Sutherland is proportional to how high the tessitura is (which is the opposite of most singers), as the lower and lower middle registers sounded scratchy, almost old lady-ish (with a few exceptions, her Ocean! Thou Mighty Monster! is second to none and blows even Callas out of the water).



> The melancholy Lucy, for me, needs some darkness in the tone to be fully convincing as a character, which is why (well, part of why) I favor Callas in the part. After all, it's Scotland. It rains all the time. Enough to drive a melancholic type around the bend, even without a mean family. With Callas I feel instantly melancholy - in a good way!


to my ears, melancholy is an understatement with regards to Callas's voice. she sounded like a straight up _witch_. even in the most delicate, vulnerably moments, there was always this nastiness to the voice. a good kind of nastiness, but she isn't the type of voice I can listen to for hours.



> Among dramatic sopranos, Nilsson's brightness, which admittedly not everyone likes, is unique. It's like a platinum sword that's so sharp it doesn't even hurt when it slices through you. It's largely the quality of "edge" that makes bright voices tiring, and her voice, in her prime, didn't have a harsh edge even on a high C. A phenomenon. Of course her lower register, while sufficiently strong, isn't rich or expressive in quality.


it's nice to see that someone else shares my disdain for harsh, edgy high notes. this is the real reason why I love Sutherland so much. she is like Sutherland in this regard, except that the voice was colder, more austere as opposed to Sutherland's warmer, more feminine timbre (a quality which she brought to many dramatic characters who are supposed to intensely sensual but are instead portrayed primarily by wobbly, overly forceful sopranos with zero sense of delicacy. to my mind, this makes her a better actress than she is given credit for)

the lack of harshness extended _past_ high C, up to at least a C# sung _pianismo_ with the ease and brightness of a lyric coloratura soprano (I think I've shared this clip with you in the past, but just.....omg, how does she do that?!).







> Varnay, whose voice is much darker, has a lot of edge, and I find her hard to listen to in the soprano range. I like her better in mezzo roles, where she can really exploit her deep low notes.


lol I thought I was the only one. I don't think I ever considered Varnay a soprano in the first place (well, _maybe_ a few very old recordings in her early 20s). hell, the role I love her most in is a contralto role (Klytemnestra)



> Flagstad's voice, for my taste, has a beautiful balance between dark and bright, with just enough edge to give poignancy to a basically warm, rich timbre. Such beauty in a huge voice is a phenomenon too.


Flagstad to me is like Sutherland in that she had a surprisingly bright, lyric timbre which became steadily more formidable into the lower middle register (at which point, ol' Joanie starts to fizzle out unfortunately)



> I should also mention Helen Traubel, the "forgotten" Wagnerian. A voice both dark and bright. Really a wonderful voice.


haven't heard a lot of her. she's on my watch list


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I haven't heard a lot of her [Helen Traubel]. She's on my watch list.


Do listen to Traubel. The neglect she tends to be accorded has more to do with the fact that she was up against Flagstad and that she pretty much confined her career to America, than with any real deficiency on her part. Some feel that she had the most beautiful voice of them all; I still accord that honor to Flagstad, but opinions differ. There's plenty of her on YouTube - and don't neglect her popular songs! Back when songs had real melodies and were performed by real singers (my historical biases are showing), nobody performed them more gorgeously than Helen Traubel.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I was listening to one of my favorite baritones today and realized that it's a quality of darkness in his timbre (in addition to his artistry) that really moves me. If you haven't heard Jorma Hynninen from Finland you're missing out on one of the great vocal artists of recent times. He was born in 1941 and was still singing as of last year, remarkably well for a 72-year-old. He's a powerful actor as well as singer, has had a superb career in opera and song, has made many recordings of everything from Finnish popular songs to Schubert Lieder to Mozart and Verdi, and remains active in the cultural life of Finland. Forgive the advertising, but this is a major artist many may not know!

Here he is in two songs of Sibelius:





 (from 1986)





 (from 2007)

And a bit of Mozart:





 (from 1989)


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Do listen to Traubel. The neglect she tends to be accorded has more to do with the fact that she was up against Flagstad and that she pretty much confined her career to America, than with any real deficiency on her part. Some feel that she had the most beautiful voice of them all; I still accord that honor to Flagstad, but opinions differ. There's plenty of her on YouTube - and don't neglect her popular songs! Back when songs had real melodies and were performed by real singers (my historical biases are showing), nobody performed them more gorgeously than Helen Traubel.


...wow! listening to her now. definitely underrated!


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

It's very hard to describe the timbre of a voice... and it also depends on the fach, but here goes. I think on the whole, I would not be able to say either dark or bright. In some soprano's I like the bright aspect, the 'lightness'. Examples are Barbara Bonney, Julia Lezhneva, Christiane Karg. I never like a 'shrill' sound. In this catagory I would say Mirella Freni is a good example. In the heavier fach I prefer darkness, Anna Netrebko, Anja Harteros, Kiri te Kanawa... and many more.

For tenors... I have issues with a lot of tenor voices, in peformance there is so often that ugly 'forced sound'. Here I prefer the bright, 'Italian' tenor. Placido Domingo, Jose Carreras, Piotr Beczala. 

The baritones are really hard to categorize for me... who is an example of bright ? In the dark regions, Samuel Ramey, Dmitri Hvorostovsky ?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Dongiovanni said:


> In the heavier fach I prefer darkness, Anna Netrebko, Anja Harteros, Kiri te Kanawa... and many more.


"heavier?" all of these are lyric sopranos =P
if you want "heavier" sopranos, try Leontyne Prince, Kirsten Flagstad, Ghena Dimitrova or Sondra Radvanovsky



> For tenors... I have issues with a lot of tenor voices, in peformance there is so often that ugly 'forced sound'.


I call this the "being grabbed by the testicles" sound :lol:


> The baritones are really hard to categorize for me... who is an example of bright?


- Herman Prey
- Peter Mattei
- dietrich fischer-dieskau 
- Thomas Hampson



> In the dark regions, Samuel Ramey, Dmitri Hvorostovsky ?


I assume you mean basses and baritones rather than just baritones, but yes, those would be good examples. additionally
baritones:
- Leonard Warren
- Robert Merrill
- Nicolae Herlea
- dmytro gnatyuk

for basses
- Boris Shtokolov
- Cesare Siepi 
- Paul Robeson
- Boris Christoff


----------

