# The state of contemporary concert music



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

What is the state of contemporary concert art music?

I studied these things around 20 years ago but admittedly have not systematically kept myself up to date.

20 years ago we talked about at least serialism, post-serialism, minimalism, traditionalism, post-modernism, neoclassicism, neoromanticism, spectral music, holisting field music, electronic music, concrete music and conceptual art music... Those come to mind at this given moment.

Is the situation of today so fragmented that it is indescribable? Or are there some major aesthetic movements?

BTW, my aesthetic movement could be described as: The Absolute Artistic Freedom Movement.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I think there's more localized movements now than what we've had before, as you've said in another post. To some degrees, the divisions we had 20 years ago are also a bit tenuous – for instance, if we consider that Ligeti was writing a very particular kind of music in his earlier period (think micropolyphony and harmonies that evolve very slowly), and wrote in a completely different, more atomised way after writing his opera, we can see that these divisions are difficult to enforce even with a single composer. Stravinsky is a prime example of this: he moves between different types of writing several times in his life. 

Going back to Ligeti, his earlier music had a great effect on people like Messiaen, Scelsi, and the French spectralists (most of whom studied with Messiaen – I think this is worth noting). The way this effect can be seen is different between all of these people, and again, it's very individual. Ligeti's later work is more atomised, and has more of a clear rhythmic profile than his earlier work. One could find ties to Stravinsky's earlier music, perhaps (at least in the way they use additive rhythm), and certain aspects of minimalism, again from a rhythmic perspective. So, once again, we've got a multitude of influences. I feel like most of the interesting figures from the 20th century are like this: even if they get associated with an "ism," there's many influences from disparate places. 

That's not to say that there weren't general tendencies or trends, as you've pointed out. I think this is still the case today, at least to an extent. There's some composers who lean more toward the French ideology of transparent orchestration, i.e. everything music be heard and must be audible, and there's others who gravitate more toward the German way of thinking in this regard: a larger gestalt can be constructed from smaller gestures that come together, and you're not necessarily going to hear all of the parts of it. There are different ways of thinking about timbre and gesture from a more general point of view, and I think there also seems to be different ways of conceiving about phrase and structure as well. Some of these things are regional, but it becomes increasingly difficult to define things by region when we can travel so easily from point to point today. One thing that we can see is people increasingly being based in more than one place at a time, and travelling between several locations regularly.


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

> One could find ties to Stravinsky's earlier music, perhaps (at least in the way they use additive rhythm), and certain aspects of minimalism, again from a rhythmic perspective. So, once again, we've got a multitude of influences. I feel like most of the interesting figures from the 20th century are like this: even if they get associated with an "ism," there's many influences from disparate places.


I think late Ligeti is much closer to Bartok than Stravinsky : the Piano and Violin Concertos and the Etudes. The formal structures, arch forms , 5 movement concertos, rhythms etcs. Even his humour is more like Bartok's though darker. And of course the folk music influences.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

John O said:


> I think late Ligeti is much closer to Bartok than Stravinsky : the Piano and Violin Concertos and the Etudes. The formal structures, arch forms , 5 movement concertos, rhythms etcs. Even his humour is more like Bartok's though darker. And of course the folk music influences.


Yes, there's a link to Bartok for sure! Again, there's lots of influences and the web of who's influenced who gets quite complicated and intertwined. It's fascinating.


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## feierlich (3 mo ago)

I don't think there's a major aesthetic movement going on in contemporary music. Everyone's got their own whole system of music theory these days, even more "fragmented" and diffused than those times when you can label music as "serialism", "spectral", "new complexity" or "musique concrète". 60 years ago it was even simpler, it's just Darmstadt or not Darmstadt. But it's a good thing isn't it?

An example of individual music theory would be Clemens Gadenstätter. Check out his YouTube channel where he posts some of his compositional lectures and also interview transcripts PDF on the Kairos website.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

First of all i think you are talking about contemporary music. Bartok and Stravinsky are modern composers so i would encourage you to take them out of your thread. 
There are approximately 200 living contemporary composers in my archives whose works are performed on a regular basis, the only problem is that you are not informed because you do not have the right contacts. We have now moved to the concerts in which one contemporary work was played along 2 or 3 traditional works. Yes, they play 3 contemporary works in one concert nowadays.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

justekaia said:


> First of all i think you are talking about contemporary music. Bartok and Stravinsky are modern composers so i would encourage you to take them out of your thread.
> There are approximately 200 living contemporary composers in my archives whose works are performed on a regular basis, the only problem is that you are not informed because you do not have the right contacts. We have now moved to the concerts in which one contemporary work was played along 2 or 3 traditional works. Yes, they play 3 contemporary works in one concert nowadays.


To be honest i expect more comments from the thread initiator than just a like; if that's the only comment he can make he should not start such a thread


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

justekaia said:


> First of all i think you are talking about contemporary music. Bartok and Stravinsky are modern composers so i would encourage you to take them out of your thread.
> There are approximately 200 living contemporary composers in my archives whose works are performed on a regular basis, the only problem is that you are not informed because you do not have the right contacts. We have now moved to the concerts in which one contemporary work was played along 2 or 3 traditional works. Yes, they play 3 contemporary works in one concert nowadays.


Yes, I'm aware these are modern composers rather than contemporary. The reason I brought them up is to highlight that talking about divisions between schools of aesthetics, even 20+ years ago, is difficult. There was a context here for a point that I was trying to make, which is tracing influences between individual composers being a more useful way to approach 20th and 21st century aesthetics than trying to put things into aesthetic boxes (i.e. serialism, minimalism, spectralism, etc.) Scelsi isn't contemporary either, and Messiaen and Ligeti both span quite a broad time period – much of their work would fall under modern rather than contemporary, imo.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

justekaia said:


> To be honest i expect more comments from the thread initiator than just a like; if that's the only comment he can make he should not start such a thread


There are other two threads on the modern and contemporary music at the moment, from different perspectives. I guess I have unintentionally neglected this thread because I got the impression that indeed we live in a fragmented and more localised world when it comes to contemporary music, so I got no definite answers. In my mind I am working towards a few thesis which could sum up the situation better than the OP. I am not there yet.

Also, I am no expert on the situation of contemporary concert art music of today. So I had to ask other´s opinions. My personality trait has always been that although I am a social person, I do not like professional networks, and I do not like the social circles of musicians. So I am not part of the scene, really. Music is my passion and I do what I like about it, and 'advancing inside a scene' is something I do not pursuit. Unfortunately that also means I am no expert on the scene, although I am interested in the music.

Also, writing and reading on this forum is a lovely hobby of mine so I do not take much pressure from it. I am here to enjoy and to learn and to express.

(Also, you have already stated that this forum is a bunch of ignorants -- and now you try to give me directions. Just letting you know I do not need the lecturing and I appreciate good manners. Thanks!)


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> Also, writing and reading on this forum is a lovely hobby of mine so I do not take much pressure from it. I am here to enjoy and to learn and to express.


Same here. I’m more of an occasional commenter than a regular poster, just because my day to day life is quite busy. I’m currently a freelance composer and am also partway through a composition degree – it’s at a school in the UK, but I like staying somewhat anonymous here so I won’t disclose specifics. It’s nice to be able to occasionally comment on stuff and engage in discourse about music related topics that I find interesting. This brings me to my next quote:



Waehnen said:


> (Also, you have already stated that this forum is a bunch of ignorants -- and now you try to give me directions. Just letting you know I do not need the lecturing and I appreciate good manners. Thanks!)


I think it’s best not to assume what peoples’ backgrounds on a subject are until people disclose this themselves. From what people have said, there’s a good mixture of backgrounds here: some people are new to classical music, others are quite deeply involved in the field. Again, this goes for the discussion on Stravinsky not being contemporary: I never said he was, and it’s not fair to other people to assume they’re ignorant on the topic at hand. 

This is not coming from a place of me being upset or anything like that; I’m just agreeing with Waehnen’s sentiment.


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