# Bach: Mass in B minor, BWV 232



## science

Bach's Mass in B minor is certainly one of the pinnacles of the classical music tradition. Wikpedia, of course, has a good article on it.

What do you think about this work? If you love it, why?

And of course, what are your favorite recordings?

(I will be scouring TC for old posts relevant to these questions and collecting them here via quotes.)


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## Bulldog

For me, Leonhardt is the best.


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## SixFootScowl

For whatever reason, I don't even have a recording of this magnificent work. I think it's because by the time I thought about getting a copy I was moving away from masses and religious choral works into opera. I have a couple of Haydn masses and a fistfull of recordings of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, as well as a couple of Beethoven's Mass in C. If I get back into listening to masses again, Bach's will be my first purchase.


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## Art Rock

I have several versions (Karajan, Suzuki, Veldhoven). After all these years I'm still struggling to understand what others heard in it. I like the two main passions and numerous cantatas far, far better.


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## Bulldog

Fritz Kobus said:


> For whatever reason, I don't even have a recording of this magnificent work. I think it's because by the time I thought about getting a copy I was moving away from masses and religious choral works into opera. I have a couple of Haydn masses and a fistfull of recordings of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, as well as a couple of Beethoven's Mass in C. If I get back into listening to masses again, Bach's will be my first purchase.


You have entered the Hall of Shame. The penalty is no more operas for you. :lol:


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## Sonata

I really enjoyed Gardiner's Mass in B minor the one time I heard it....but I haven't gotten around to repeating the experience. I have queued up William Christie's version on spotify and plan to listen in the next week or two.


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## SixFootScowl

Back when I was considering getting a copy I was focused on this set, which was rather pricey at the time.


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## wkasimer

Sonata said:


> I have queued up William Christie's version on spotify and plan to listen in the next week or two.


I'm not sure whether it's my favorite, but I liked it well enough on Spotify to buy a copy.


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## WildThing

I have four recordings, and here's how I'd list them in order of preference:

1.









Herreweghe: Collegium Vocale Gent

2.









Karl Richter: Munich Bach Choir, Munich Bach Orchestra

3.









Gardiner: English Baroque Soloists, Monteverdi Choir

4.









Suzuki: Bach Collegium Japan


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## Triplets

It reminds me of the Brandenburg Concertos, in that JSB has pulled out all the stops and is trying to impress the world, and succeeds


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## Dirge

J. S. BACH: Mass in B minor, BWV 232 (1749)

Christina Högman, soprano I • Monica Groop, alto & soprano II
Howard Crook, tenor • Petteri Salomaa, bass
Mikaeli Chamber Choir
Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble
Anders Eby [Proprius '90]

This excellent all-around performance features a stylish HIP/period-instrument orchestra and a stylish traditional/non-specialist choir and team of soloists (except for Crook, who is a Baroque specialist) that work together beautifully despite their different stylistic backgrounds. The only hurdle of sorts that listeners might encounter is the contrast resulting from the orchestra's use of minimal vibrato and the choir's and the vocal soloists' use of moderate vibrato-I hear it as contrasting but complementary in this case, but others might hear it as a stylistic mismatch. The forces are of one mind in all other respects.

Although the choir is fairly large by today's standards (SSATB: 7-7-9-8-11), its singing is so together/tightly knit and generally accomplished that it's nearly as focused and responsive as a small choir while retaining the weight and "oomph"/impact of a big choir-no mean trick. Indeed, I've not heard better overall choir singing in this work. The orchestra is also fairly large by today's standards (with a string section of 6-5-3-2-1), but its clean playing and relatively transparent textures (a benefit of its low-vibrato ways) allow the choir to come through naturally, without having to unduly compete with the orchestra-the balance and general relationship between choir and orchestra is about as good as it could be. The vocal soloists are top-drawer as well: characterful and distinctive on their own yet beautifully matched and complementary when heard together in the duets, and the instrumental soloists are no less characterful and accomplished in their many contributions. As I hear it, there are no weak links to be found here, and the performance is as good as it gets in terms of execution/technical proficiency, coordination, and rapport.

With such excellent forces at his disposal, Eby is able to set the interpretive agenda and more or less let his singers and players have at it-no need to micromanage or use a heavy hand with musicians of this caliber. Not surprisingly, then (and true to his MO), Eby opts for a well-balanced, straightforward, even-keeled interpretation that, owing to its undistracting and revealing nature, puts the spotlight and the onus on the performers to the maximum extent. The pace is mostly moderate and unremarkable-occasionally a bit too fast, and in Kyrie II, too fast-and uncommonly well regulated, but Eby manages to transcend any ho-hum sense of "sure and steady" and make things pulse along with a compelling sense of integrity and purpose. Dynamics and dynamic contrasts are strong but not exaggerated, rhythmic playing is incisive yet deftly sprung, and phrasing (subjective as it is) is much to my liking.

In a nutshell, Eby and company take a perilously straightforward interpretation, one that will ruthlessly expose any flaws or weaknesses or lack of inspiration, and simply (or not so simply) execute the bejesus out of it. Proprius provides a naturally detailed and airily atmospheric recording in what sounds like a large but cleanly reverberant acoustic space, with excellent balances all around.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

For me, Gardiner's first recording on DG Archiv still takes some beating. More recently, I really liked the recording by John Butt and the Dunedin Consort. It's these two sets of the Mass which I carry around on my iPod.


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## jiraffejustin

I don't have much to add, being a novice with classical music still, but this is one of the works that piqued my interest in music written before we could record sound. I feel quite intimidated by the knowledge all of the posters here seem to possess, and I don't even know which recording I listened to. I'll just say that this was a lovely experience when I heard this for the first time. If anybody has any suggestions on where to go from here, I'd love to hear them. (PM if necessary so as not to clutter this thread with unrelated works)


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## howlingfantods

Call me old fashioned, but the Klemperer is an easy first choice for me. I like my choral Bach slow, reverent, and weighted with meaning.


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## Josquin13

For me, Bach's Mass in B minor and Handel's Messiah are the two greatest choral works composed between the Baroque era and today. They're also the only two choral works I know where the audience will movingly stand for a single movement: during the Dona nobis pacem in Bach's Mass (a tradition at St. Thomas Church in Leipzig), and the Hallejulah chorus in Handel's Messiah. Like others, I consider Bach's Mass to be one of the great masterpieces in the history of music, and have collected many recordings over the years.

I. One disagreement I have with performances of the Mass is that certain conductors take the final Dona nobis pacem too briskly. Granted, Bach provided no autograph tempo marking for this movement--though he did mark the corresponding Gratias agimus tibi movement "alla breve" (which may have meant something different to Bach than it does to us today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve). A musician friend once me told that Bach wanted the Dona nobis pacem to be performed "with majesty". I've never been able to verify this comment (and would be interested if anyone on TC can do so), but it does make sense. When the final movement unfolds with a spacious majesty--i.e., at a slower tempo, I find the music is more deeply moving. Conversely, if the movement is taken briskly, it tends to reduce the grandeur and scale of the ending of the mass, in my view. In the hands the most hurried conductors on record, the music can even be made to sound ridiculous & border on travesty.

In other words, I don't see the Dona nobis pacem as a "slightly lame" conclusion to the Mass, as composer Gabriel Jackson has suggested. For me, it's only lame in the hands of conductors that treat the movement more along the lines of a light, quickened dance (those that generally bring it in at under 2:45 or thereabouts)--which I find more appropriate for other movements in the Mass, such as the Osanna, rather than a majestic finale (at roughly 3:10 to 4 minutes). So, I don't think conductors that slow down at the end are trying to 'tack on' or create a grandeur and scale that wasn't intended by Bach, or isn't part of the score.

After all, Bach scored the Dona nobis pacem for 8 voices or parts in 1750, and those were his final thoughts on the subject. Considering that he composed his 200 plus cantatas for a single 4 part choir (except for one fragment of a now lost 'Michaelmas' cantata, which is disputed), his use of an 8 part-double choir here is rare. Therefore it seems obvious that Bach wanted a large scale effect from his singers & orchestra in the Dona nobis pacem--at least by 18th century Lutheran practices (although maybe not for the earlier Gratias movement, which isn't scored for a double choir, and as noted, was given the tempo marking of "alla breve").

There may also be some esoteric symbolism intended by Bach, by using virtually the same music in both the Gratias and Dona nobis pacem movements--beyond an attempt to simply better unify the first and last parts of the Mass. (If so, I suspect this symbolism may have something to do with the unity or repetition of the Father and Son, i.e., 1 & 1, in relation to the fulfillment & return of the Messiah to ultimately grant peace to a troubled world.) Although it's also possible that Bach knew he was nearing death and didn't have enough good eyesight and health left to compose a final movement (which would be an arduous task for a man in failing health), so he may have had no choice but to substitute the music of the Gratias for the Dona nobis Pacem, in order to complete his Mass.

On the other hand, I wouldn't disagree that certain conductors can over do the sense of majesty at the end of the Mass. I've noticed that when they bring the Dona nobis pacem in at over 4 minutes, they run the risk of reducing the movement to a near dirge-like pace, which can arguably add unnecessary expressive emphasis (see links to Gardiner & Richter's live performances below). For me, the Dona nobis pacem should be performed with a strong degree of contrapuntal clarity so that all the musical lines and intricacies of the score can be distinctly heard--& not obscured by some gigantic, cumbersome, fuzzy sounding choir, and larger orchestra than what Bach asked for (such as with Klemperer's BBC chorus, & Karajan's ensemble): both of which derive from a much later Romantic tradition that has more in common with Berlioz and Verdi, than with the musical practices that Bach composed for in Leipzig and Dresden in the 18th century; as well as a conductor that doesn't take the final movement ridiculously fast, as mentioned, or seek to temper the individuality & loudness of the brass and percussion sections.

According to Wikipedia, Bach orchestrated the work for "two flutes, two oboes d'amore (doubling on oboes) [C.P.E. Bach edited out the oboe d'amores & changed them to clarinets], two bassoons, one natural horn (in D), three natural trumpets (in D), violins I and II, violas and basso continuo (cellos, basses, bassoons, organ and harpsichord). A third oboe is required for the Sanctus." When combined with a choir that matches the size of choirs employed in Bach's day, i.e., a range between 4 to 16 singers (maximum), an orchestra of that size should allow the complex contrapuntal qualities of Bach's score to be distinctly heard.

In recent decades, it has become common for conductors to take the early "Gratias" movement at a brisk pace, and then slow down in the Dona nobis pacem at the end. That way you get both views of the music within the same performance (since the two movements are virtually identical). I think this approach works well, as long as the Gratias isn't too speedy, since the movements probably do need a sense of contrast and separation: especially when you consider that the Gratias is specifically marked "alla breve" by Bach, and the Dona nobis pacem is not. In other words, the ensemble shouldn't be merely rehashing the same performance of the Gratias in the Dona nobis pacem, as the latter requires a greater sense of monumentality and majesty that is more appropriate to the end of the 'great' Mass (as it was called).

Here's a valuable description of the part of the Dona nobis pacem music that I find moving:

"The chorus unfolds, rather unremarkably, in a narrow range of only about two octaves. At measure 15, the sopranos take us a fourth higher, to the next plane; a lone trumpet sneaks in to provide a halo of sound. Then, beginning at measure 27, the outer voices of the choir, sopranos and basses, open up the vista; the first trumpet enters (at measure 32) a fifth higher than the sopranos, going all the way to a high D, beyond the range of the human voice. From that note to the low A in the double bass (with stirring timpani entrance) at measure 35, Bach encompasses a range exceeding four octave, more than double where he started. The effect is magical, a vast expansion of the choral-orchestral texture, a view from the mountaintop.

Bach has engaged deeply with his faith in writing the Mass, and in so doing illuminates a path for his listeners--listeners he may never have expected to encounter in his own lifetime. The path leads to a glorious and eternal peace, the banishing of uncertainty, and the achievement of our full potential as human beings, based on a foundation as securely laid as the Mass itself."*

As noted, these passages work best when all of the musical lines are clearly and sharply heard, with nothing in the score obscured or lost in a haze of mushy sound.

For me, the most moving passage in the Dona nobis pacem is where the treble or soprano line suddenly & surprisingly descends down in a fugue-like manner, contrary to what has come before. (Sorry, I don't know the exact measure.)

It can be frustrating to hear conductors that speed through the final movement in performances that I've otherwise enjoyed (such as Konrad Junghänel). Conversely, it can be equally disappointing to hear a conductor that gets the final movement brilliantly in a performance that is otherwise inconsistent or average (such as Robert King).

Here are 4 examples of conductors that turn the Dona nobis pacem into an anti-climatic or 'slightly lame' ending, in my view, by taking the movement overly fast:

1. Sigiswald Kuijken--(Gratias: 2:09, Dona nobis pacem: 2:13!): 




https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Sigiswald-Kuijken-Petite-Bande/dp/B0028ET5VG

2. Konrad Junghänel: Junghanel takes the Gratias movement at a breathless pace (the fastest on record, I believe), bringing it in at 2:01! (& as with Kuijken, the music sounds ridiculously fast, at least to my ears). He then 'slows down' slightly in the Dona nobis pacem, bringing it in at a still very brisk 2:18 (only a little slower than Kuijken's). It's a pity, since I otherwise enjoy Junghanel's recording, overall, but can't recommend it on account of the hurried tempo choices for these two movements: https://www.allmusic.com/album/js-bach-h-moll-messe-mw0001400558

3. Philippe Herreweghe 1 (Virgin Records)--(Gratias: 2:31, Dona nobis pacem: 2:33 (the Dona nobis pacem begins at 1:43:55): 



https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-Mi...ip-0&keywords=herreweghe+bach+mass+in+b+minor

Herrweghe slows down slightly more on his 2nd recording on Harmonia Mundi (Gratias: 2:43, Dona nobis pacem: 2:52), and it works better, IMO: 



. I haven't heard Herreweghe's third recording from 2011, but it generally gets good reviews. The timings on Herreweghe 3 are--Gratias: 2:28, Dona nobis pacem: 2:49--so again, he's a bit slower on his 3rd Dona nobis pacem than on the first recording for Virgin:

https://www.amazon.com/Mass-B-Minor...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9CS3SS1HQ7JHAJHK3P3E
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Bach_mass_LPH004.htm
http://www.classical-music.com/http...sic.com/review/bach-mass-bminor-choral-jul-12
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/bach-mass-in-b-minor-bwv232
https://outhere-music.com/en/albums/mass-in-b-minor-bwv-232-lph-004

Personally, I tend to find Herreweghe's Bach too soft-hued, as he has a tendency towards 'feminine' endings in phrases, instead of presenting what is dynamic, and incisively bold & assertive in this music (though an exception would be Herreweghe's 1st recording of Bach's Magnificat, which is one of the finest in the catalogue, IMO). He also uses larger choirs than I tend to prefer. Yet Herreweghe chooses his singers exceptionally well, & consistently so: which is remarkable considering how many recordings he has made.

4. Jordi Savall--(Gratias, ?, Dona nobis pacem 2:33: 



. Again, Savall rushes the final movement, though he makes it work a little better than the conductors mentioned above. Here's the full live performance, if anyone's interested: 




My ideal performance of the Dona nobis pacem comes from Robert King and the King's Consort, in an otherwise variable recording, due to the inconsistencies of the boy soloists (from the Tölzer Knabenchor). Unfortunately, it isn't on You Tube:

Robert King, King's Consort--3:46:
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDD22051




https://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-mass-in-b-minor-mw0001365111

Here's a list of other conductors that wisely slow down in the final movement:

On period instruments:

1. John Eliot Gardiner 1 (DG Archiv)--(Gratis: 3:02, Dona nobis pacem: 3:20):




2. John Eliot Gardiner 2--(Gratis: 3:00, Dona nobis pacem: 3:36)--I've not heard this performance, but the timings look good: https://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-mass-in-b-minor-2015-recording-mw0002898500

3. John Eliot Gardiner--live (Dona nobis pacem: 4:05--here Gardiner slows down even more, and I feel the movement becomes more dirge-like...?): 




4. Masaaki Suzuki (BIS hybrid SACDs)--(Gratias: 3:15, Dona nobis pacem: 4:12--Like Gardiner live, Suzuki is arguably too spacious here... ? The following is a live performance where Suzuki takes the movement about a minute faster, bringing it in at 3:19 (warning: there are some muffed notes from the brass section): 



)

5. John Butt--(Gratias: 3:04, Dona nobis pacem: 3:16)--Butt uses Joshua Rifkin's 2006 Breitkopf & Härtel 'one voice per part' edition of the score, which removes all of C.P.E. Bach's post-1750 'revisions' to his late father's score. Butt uses a total of 10 singers versus Rifkin's 5 in his pioneering 1983 recording on Nonesuch. The extra singers are needed for Bach's 6 part scoring of the Sanctus, and his 8-part or double choir scoring of the Osanna and Dona nobis pacem.

6. Thomas Hengelbrock--(Gratias 3:11, Dona nobis pacem: 3:31): https://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-mass-in-b-minor-extraits-mw0001399830

7. Jos Van Veldhoven (partially OVPP)--(Gratias: 2:41, Dona nobis pacem: 3:12): https://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-mass-in-b-minor-mw0001399210

8. Marc Minkowski--(Gratias: 2:37, Dona nobis pacem: 3:39): It was bold of Minkowski to choose the Mass in B minor for his first Bach recording, but he handles the Dona nobis pacem well, IMO: 




9. Rene Jacobs--(Gratias: 2:32, Dona nobis pacem: 3:05)
10. Andrew Parrott (OVPP)--(Gratias: 2:56, Dona nobis pacem: 3:01)
11. Joshua Rifkin (OVPP)--(Gratias: 2:58, Dona nobis pacem: 3:06)
12. Eric Ericson--(Gratias: 3:02, Dona nobis pacem: 3:12)
13. Gustav Leonhardt (La Petit Bande)--(Gratias: 2:58, Dona nobis pacem: 3:06)--Parts of Leonhardt's 1985 performance are very beautiful, but elsewhere, such as with the valveless brass playing in the Cum Sancto Spiritu, the performance is surprisingly weak, and at times enervated. Indeed, Leonhardt's conducting ranges from being spiritually attuned, & remarkably so, to plain drab and colorless. Plus, Leonhardt's 1985 Netherlands choir doesn't sing on the same professional level as the finest choirs on record, such as Gardiner's Monteverdi choir: 




On modern instruments:

--Sir Neville Marriner--(Gratias: 2:48, Dona nobis pacem: 3:09)
--Karl Richter (recorded live, 1969, DVD & blu ray)--Dona nobis pacem--4:06: 



)
--Otto Klemperer--(Gratias: 3:14, Dona nobis pacem: 3:34: 



 me, one of the highlights of Klemperer's performance is the young Janet Baker's heartfelt Agnus Dei (recorded in 1967, when Baker was in her prime). I wouldn't want to be without it.
--Herbert von Karajan--DG, Berlin (Gratias: 3:45, Dona nobis pacem: 4:01--loads of majesty at the end, but Karajan drags the music throughout the rest of the recording, while the ensemble's sound is too thick and dense to resemble anything close to what Bach wrote for in the 18th century: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0017M1Y14/ref=dm_rogue_digital)
--Herbert von Karajan--Wien, 1960: Dona nobis pacem: 4:11--again, Karajan badly drags the music throughout this recording: 



). He has little understanding of Baroque style.
--Sir Georg Solti: Dona nobis pacem: 3:48: 




Borderline brisk conductors--Hans-Christophe Rademann, Peter Schreier, & Nikolaus Harnoncourt all make their readings work in the 2:47-2:58 range, in my view, even if they are a shade too fast for my ideal performance.

Hans-Christoph Rademann--(Gratias: 2:11, Dona nobis pacem: 2:58) 
Nikolaus Harnoncourt--(Gratias: 2:37, Dona nobis pacem: 2:57)
Peter Schreier 1 (Eurodisc & Berlin Classics)--(Gratis: 2:37, Dona nobis pacem: 2:47)
Peter Schreier 2 (Philips)--(Gratias: 2:40, Dona nobis pacem: 2:53)
Helmut Müller-Brühl--(Gratias: 2:29, Dona nobis pacem: 2:39)

Conductors that are oddly faster in the Gratias movement than in the final Dona nobis pacem:

--Bruggen 2 (Live concert, Glossa)--(Gratias: 3:16, Dona nobis pacem: 3:03)--Brüggen is the only period conductor that I know who takes the Gratias at a slower pace than the final movement, though admittedly it isn't by much. Curiously, in Bruggen's 1st recording for Philips, also live, he does the same, only a little faster--(Gratias: 3:02, Dona nobis pacem: 2:57). 
--Karl Richter (Profil, Hänssler)--(Gratias: 3:27, Dona nobis pacem: 3:24)
--Karl Richter, DG Archiv, 1962--(Gratias 3:28, Dona nobis pacem: 3:25--virtually the same timings for both)
--Sergui Celibidache--(Gratias: 3:44, Dona nobis pacem: 3:34--I would have expected the opposite from Celibidache, with a final movement at around 5 minutes, but that isn't the case.)

Among other Mass recordings, I've not heard those by Hans Bernius, Jordi Savall (except for his Dona nobis pacem on You Tube), William Christie, Stephen Layton, Peter Dijkstra, Jonathan Cohen, Diego Fasiolis (Gratias: 2:59, Dona nobis pacem: 4:01), Martin Pearlman, and Anders Eby.

Here's a positive review for Peter Dijkstra's live Mass in B minor on BR Klassik:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Feb/Bach_mass_900910.htm. I've got the following discount box set on order: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LB2P2FI/?coliid=I3TQAIH1Z4L2DB&colid=21SJHDTIM1UQ9&psc=0

Edit: I've now heard Dijkstra's recording, and the choir and orchestral textures are too blurry for me, though the performances are okay (on first impression, I'm not as enthusiastic as the MusicWeb reviewer).

II. My favorite recordings of the Mass in B minor:

1. On period instruments:

Butt, Suzuki, Veldhoven, Bruggen 2 (live, Glossa), and Rademann. I should add that it's been a long time since I've heard Andrew Parrott and Joshua Rifkin's 'one voice per part' (or OVPP) recordings of the Mass (from the 1980s). I might have included one or both on my list of favorites, had I freshly listened to their recordings, and compared them to Butt's more recent recording (which I suspect is preferable), but I've not had the time to do so (perhaps in a later post...):

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-mi...4&sr=8-1&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+suzuki
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-mi...-1&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+butt+dunedin
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Mas...1-1&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+hengelbrock
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-Mi...r=1-1&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+veldhoven
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Minor-O...&sr=1-1&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+bruggen

In addition, the following period recordings are very good, in my view: Hengelbrock, Herreweghe 2, Jacobs (Berlin Classics & Brilliant), and Gardiner 1 (DG Archiv--I've not heard Gardiner 2).

To be continued below...


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## Josquin13

Continued from my previous post...

Looking to the future, there are three current period conductors that I'd like to hear conduct and record the Mass in B minor: (1) Eric Milnes (with Montreal Baroque), (2) Philippe Pierlot (with the Ricercar Consort), and (3) Alfredo Bernardini (with Ensemble Zefiro). Of these three, I'd most like to hear Milnes conduct the Mass, since, in my estimation, he's the finest Bach conductor today. Milnes' brilliant Bach performances in Montreal are often better rehearsed than others, and he chooses his singers more consistently well than most other conductors today. (If Milnes were British, I suspect he'd be more celebrated, and have already received monthly plaudits from the British classical rags & annual awards, etc., but unfortunately he's an American working in Canada, so he's been more off the radar, at least to the Brits, Americans, & Europeans.)

2. My favorite recordings of the Mass in B minor on modern instruments:

Back in the early 1980s, before any period recordings of the Mass in B minor had come out, I remember asking a composer friend which conductors of Bach's choral works I should buy on recordings? He paused for a moment, and replied that there were none that he could recommend. "None?" I asked very surprised. "Do you mean there's not a single recording of a Bach choral work in the catalogue that you can recommend?" "No", he replied, "none of the conductors on record have conducted Bach's choral music with an understanding of Baroque style. "What about Eugen Jochum?" I asked. "No. Jochum's style of conducting is all wrong for Bach. "What about Karl Richter?" "No, Richter is overly teutonic and inflexible, his conducting was part of a much later German tradition. I wouldn't recommend his Bach."

I continued to press him. Finally, he replied,

"Oh wait. There is one recording I can recommend: Peter Schreier's performance of the Mass in B minor with the New Bach Collegium Musicum of Leipzig, on the Eurodisc label. It's available as a "cut out" right now, so you can buy it inexpensively. But Schreier is the only conductor on record that understands how to conduct Bach's choral music in an 18th century style."

Taking his advice, I bought the Schreier LP recording, and have returned to it many times with great pleasure over the years. Granted, by today's standards, Schreier's sopranos can sound a bit dated with their wider vibrato (which betrays the age of the recording)--but it is judiciously done and unobtrusive (unlike many of the older Bach recordings). Otherwise, Schreier's 1983 recording was the first HIP recording of the Mass on modern instruments, and he deserves recognition for that. Personally, I think it's one of the finest accounts of the Mass in B minor on record. The musicians of the New Bach Collegium Musicum Leipzig were a subset of the Gewandhaus Orchestra at the time (and included the orchestra's then 1st violinist Karl Süske, and the brilliant 1st trumpeter, Ludwig Güttler), who were trying to bring back Bach's Collegium to Leipzig. As you'd expect, the musicianship and choral singing is first rate, especially from the wonderful brass section, led by Güttler. However, as mentioned, Schreier does take the final Dona nobis pacem a bit faster than is my ideal, but he makes it work, & dynamically so. (Interestingly, Schreier slows down a bit more on his 2nd recording for Philips.) To this day, both recordings--Schreier's first for Eurodisc (now available on Berlin Classics), and his second for Philips, remain my two favorites of the Mass on modern instruments, and I find it hard to choose between them:





https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Messe-H...sr=1-7&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+schreier (this is the 1982 Eurodisc that my composer friend recommended to me:https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Messe-H...sr=1-6&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+schreier)

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-Mi...&keywords=Bach+mass+in+b+minor+schreier+auger

https://www.amazon.com/Collectors-J-S-Great-Choral-Masterpieces/dp/B00DD0AFEU









III. I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention that there are two recordings of Bach's early 1733 Dresden version of the Kyrie and Gloria, which Bach presented to the Dresden Court in hopes of finding royal patronage from the new Catholic prince of Saxony at Dresden, Frederick Augustus II, and to escape from the city authorities in Leipzig, with whom he'd had many disagreements over a ten year period, as they were unable to recognize his great musical genius. The two releases are:

(1) Pygmalion's recording of Bach's Dresden Kyrie & Gloria, led by Raphaël Pichon, on the Alpha label. Pichon's performance is based exclusively on the "Dresden parts" of 1733, which show many differences or "minor variants" to the version of the Mass commonly heard today. Pichon uses Uwe Wolf's 2010 Bärenreiter new critical edition of the Mass in B minor, which, for the first time, identified and compared the different versions of the Mass (i.e., the initial 1724 version of the Sanctus, the 1733 'Dresden parts', Bach's final 1748-50 score, and C.P.E. Bach's 'revisions' to his late father's work, etc.). Wolf relied on "x-ray spectograph technology to differentiate J.S. Bach's handwriting from the additions made by C.P.E. Bach and others", according to Wikipedia. In the booklet notes, Pichon writes that Pygmalion's goal was to imagine what a performance of the Kyrie and Gloria might have sounded like at the Dresden court in 1733, with the idea that Bach specifically tailored his music to a group of highly skilled, renowned musicians working in Dresden at the time:

https://www.amazon.com/Js-Bach-Miss...=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=pygmalion+bach+mass+alpha

(2) Hans-Christophe Rademann's Carus label recording of a new 2014 edition of the Mass in B minor by scholar Ulrich Leisinger: which claims to be the only recording to "rigorously use" and follow Bach's 1733 Kyrie and Gloria movements; yet additionally accepts some of C.P.E. Bach's later revisions elsewhere in the Mass. By these claims, Rademann apparently considers Leisinger's edition to be more exact to Bach's 1733 handwritten parts than Wolf's 2010 edition (I gather), and/or he considers the Freiburg performance to be more faithful to the letter of the 1733 score than Pygmalion's 'imagining" of a possible Dresden performance. Rademann's set includes extra performances of specific movements in order to further demonstrate the range of variants between the 1733 score and the more commonly heard version today. Indeed Bach's final manuscript was significantly changed by his son Carl Philipp Emanuel after his father's death (especially the orchestration).

There are two releases of the Carus set: one that comes with a DVD documentary about the new edition (along with 2 CDs)--which is the version I'd recommend, and a second release of 2 CDs, without the DVD:

2 CDs & DVD:
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-Mi...2&keywords=hans+rademann+bach+mass+in+b+minor

2 CDs (without the DVD):
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Mass-Mi...1&keywords=hans+rademann+bach+mass+in+b+minor

Or, you can download the musical content of the 2 CDs (with a digital booklet):
https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8072774--bach-j-s-mass-in-b-minor-bwv232

In contrast, Joshua Rifkin argues that the Mass in B minor finished before Bach's death in 1750 is essentially a different work from the 1733 "Dresden parts" score, and that a combination of the two doesn't correspond to Bach's final "conception" of his Mass. As noted, for his 2006 edition, Rifkin sought to remove all of C.P.E. Bach's 'improvements' or revisions to his father's score. Those listeners with a strong interest in the Mass will want to hear both Rifkin's 2006 edition (which has been recorded by John Butt & the Dunedin Consort) and Leisinger's incorporation of the 1733 Kyrie and Gloria movements into his 2014 edition of the full mass (which, as noted, has been recorded by Rademann and the Freiburg Barockorchester), in order to better decide for themselves. (It should be pointed out that Bach's late handwriting isn't always perfectly clear or legible on the 1748-50 score, so in certain places it probably does make sense to use parts of C.P.E. Bach's 'revised' score.)

IV. Here are several informative articles on Bach's Mass that I've found helpful:

The history of the Mass in B minor, etc.:

http://bach.nau.edu/mass/prose/Rathey.pdf

A 'play by play' companion to each movement of the mass:

*https://static1.squarespace.com/sta.../1438128761309/Bach+Mass+in+B+Minor+Guide.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/2014120... Bach and the Mystery of the B Minor Mass.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_B_minor

Finally, I'd strongly recommend John Butt's excellent booklet notes to his Dunedin Consort recording:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6IHpvmfr6gMVTRfekpHSUN3NGc/view

My two cents.


----------



## science

I just discovered Trout's blog - it is fan-reaking-tastic! He compiled references to different works and scored them for recommendations... here is is entry for Bach's Mass in B minor. (I don't think I can actually quote the blog post here.)


----------



## science

Here is a fantastic post on this topic from another thread:



Manxfeeder said:


> Oh, shucks. I don't have the time for all that, but I can share just a few things that I have written in my score. If I have anything wrong, maybe someone can correct me.
> 
> Albert Schweitzer called it both Catholic because of its objective chorales and Protestant because of its intimate and personal pieces.
> 
> I have a note, I don't know who from, that it is in 7 keys, the number 7 representing the church. B minor represents human pain. D major represents worldly power and glory. G minor is tragic; F# minor is transcendent suffering; A major is joy and grace; E minor represents the crucifixion; and G major represents blessedness.
> 
> The Kyrie opens in B minor with a banner headline, with the whole choir crying together for mercy. Then the orchestra begins a tentative melody which dips frequently, both representing sighing and also how one bows as they approach a king.
> 
> The Christe is in D major. If the church is the bride of Christ, there is no fear, because he died for her. So when she turns to Christ to ask for mercy, it sounds like she is flirting with him.
> 
> The second Kyrie is in F# minor, a fugue in the transcendent suffering key, moving from the lowest voice to the highest.
> 
> So the three keys, b, d, f# form a b minor triad.
> 
> The Gloria is in D major, and the violins and trumpets are in their most open keys. This is extroverted music, with angels singing what I have noted as a Christmas hymn. (I wish I wrote my source down.) The oboe d'amore of the first section is replaced with the more powerful oboe.
> 
> Laudamus Te is a melismatic and expressive aria with a soloist and string quartet in A.
> 
> The Gratis agimus is a working of Cantata BVW 29 with four-part canons in stile antico in D. This is echoed at the end of the mass also.
> 
> Domine Deus is in G, a duet either between God and Christ or angels addressing the Father and Son. The words "Domine Deus" have the same falling motives of the first movement, addressing the Father with respect. Instead of concluding this as a da capo aria, Qui Tollis is inserted in B minor. This is from Cantata No. 46 and has a dark, veiled quality. There are no first sopranos; the second soprano is in the top voice. This is the church begging God's son to receive their prayer.
> 
> Skipping to the Credo, numerologically, Credo is 43, and there are 43 entrances of the melody. It has 8 movements in an arch with the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection in the middle. The bass line is a step-like pattern, reflecting those who have followed the faith. The key is D, though the tenor is singing Gregorian chant in the Mixolydian mode. It develops into a 7-voice fugue.
> 
> Skipping again to the Et Incarnatus Est is in B minor, the orchestra plays a repeated pattern of C#-D-A#-B, which, if you draw a line, forms a cross. "Et incarnatus" is a melodic figure which steps down,It reflecting Christ coming down to us. It is in 5 parts because there are 5 wounds of Christ. It is 49 bars long, or 7 x 7, the number of the church.
> 
> The Crucifixus is a passacaglia, repeating 13 times, representing the 12 apostles and Christ. It is a reworking of BWV 12 and is in E minor. The bass line is called a lamento bass, which was popular among composers. Again, there are no first sopranos.
> 
> Et Resurrexit is a burst of energy in D major and is one of Bach's masterpieces.
> 
> Skipping to the Sanctus in D, it has six voices, representing the six wings of the seraphim. The high voices float like winged creatures.
> 
> Hosanna is in D, from BMV 215. Its original text was "Long Live the King." It starts in unison, then goes into a fugato.
> 
> Skipping head, the Dona Nobis ends not in B minor but D major, reflecting the peace that comes from glorifying God.


----------



## NLAdriaan

My favourite Hohe Messe recording


----------



## SacredBolero

A spiritual journey to be sure. It might not be as operatic as the passions, nor does it share the sublime grandeur of Beethoven’s Missa solemnis for example, but there’s something about that “less festive” (not entirely accurate - that Gloria movement though!) instrumentation compared to later masses that grants a sense of something personal when listened to with the benefit of hindsight. I can see why some people would rank the passions more highly in musical terms, but as an overall package (and not necessarily due to the weight of the text) the Mass is, certainly to me, a true masterpiece. I am reluctant to call it “superior”, since they are all such brilliant works.
This wasn’t asked for particularly in the post, but I’d just write this, mostly as a chance to self-reflect:
The piece begins with the most striking introduction to a mass setting ever, PERIOD. I will not dwell in the debate about whether or not it was intended for the original version in C minor, but if there ever is a greater wake up call about the greatness of the Lord in any other music, I’ve not heard it yet.
But then comes the main body. Musically it is sublime, but let’s forget about that for a second and just appreciate it quantitatively. That sighing, a longing of returning to God. Miraculous.
The Gloria section is just as sublime. I wasn’t completely convinced by the arias at first, but they eventually became very well received by me - in fact, they might actually be the episodes in that they return oneself to that personal-level state I referred to earlier.
To me, the best part is the Credo. If the creed summarises our faith, the music enhances it. The Crucifixus, I’m lost for words - just plain awesome. And, of the entire text of Mass, Confiteor - leading to Et expecto - is the one that had always struck me hardest; and the music, treated both literally and sacredly, does not disappoint.
I have nothing much to note about the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei, not that they are poor - none of the Mass is poor - but I always feel that they are much overwhelmed by the preceding sections. This is perhaps fuelled by my own personal inclination to the Credo in both text and music. Of course, the Dona nobis pacem provides a suitably graceful end to a remarkable spiritual adventure.
Favourite recordings? I am admittedly the type of listener that, once he finds a recording he likes, simply listens to I think over and over again. I’ve probably only listened to eight or so recordings. I agree with WildThing on him placing Herreweghe 2012 top. I would also recommend Rene Jacobs 2015, which I find surprisingly missing from the posts above (or did I miss it?). Both are absolutely fantastic.
Yes, I am a teen that doesn’t like those old, heavy performances like Karl Richter’s. And yes, I listen to the music on Spotify!


----------



## Ras

*Rene Jacobs*



SacredBolero said:


> I would also recommend Rene Jacobs 2015, which I find surprisingly missing from the posts above (or did I miss it?).


I have Rene Jacobs's recording from Berlin Classics but I think it's much older, right? From the Nineties probably. 
I can't find other recordings of Bach's B minor mass by Jacobs - are you sure it isn't a re-release of the earlier Berlin recording?

This is the re-release of the Berlin recording that I have:


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## flamencosketches

I'm still looking for the right one for me... Karl Richter's was a little too solemn and borderline sludgy, Gardiner's a little too detached and academic (if beautiful at times). I have yet to get through the whole thing because something or another would keep turning me off along the way. 

Any love for Brüggen in this work? He's been recommended to me before. Other recommendations I recall are Klemperer, Herreweghe, and Koopman. I love Suzuki in the cantatas, but I am somehow dubious of his B minor Mass. 

I'll happily continue living life not understanding this work, but at some point the fear of missing out will really get to my head. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier

SacredBolero said:


> nor does it share the sublime grandeur of Beethoven's Missa solemnis for example,


Sorry, isn't it the other way around? Isn't it more accurate to say "Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is slightly lacking in sublimity compared to Bach's Mass in B minor". 
One thing that I find a little unappealing about Beethoven's use of the choir is:
he often has his whole choir sing one note in unison in sforzando or fortissimo, which hurts my ears.












the ninth symphony has some sections like these as well.
At least Bach doesn't do this.
(if you think Beethoven's way is "sublime drama", I'll still respect your opinion)


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## Larkenfield

I can hear why the B Minor Mass has lasted… because of its beautiful and endless polyphonic writing, plus its moments of uplifting sincerity when appealing to God for mercy, its moments of inspiring exuberance, its variety, its occasional sense of suspense, the outstanding solo parts, that seem to represent the enduring Presence of the Eternal. Its endless flow with unforced voices is rather hypnotic and can really pull one in and lose one's sense of time. It's not a glum experience with its moments of cheer, a spiritual feast and celebration for the ears:






On period Instruments which add a somewhat softening quality to the overall experience.


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## gardibolt

Have there been any attempts at doing the B minor Mass with boy soloists since Robert King's effort in 1996?


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## wkasimer

gardibolt said:


> Have there been any attempts at doing the B minor Mass with boy soloists since Robert King's effort in 1996?


I hope not......


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## Josquin13

wkasimer said:


> I hope not......


Ha!!

Yes, the boys' singing on King's recording was mixed.

But in the answer to the poster's question, yes, the St. Thomas Boy's choir (or Thomanerchor) has made recordings of the Mass in B minor, Cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion,, & Christmas Oratorio, with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, under conductor Georg Christoph Biller, on the Accentus label, I believe, and of Motets on Philips (1997-08)--though I've not heard the recordings myself. There was also a St. Thomas choir, Leipzig box set released on Universal label's 'Eloquence' series, which I'd like to hear, if I could find it at a reasonable price, as its out of print.





https://www.amazon.de/Thomanerchor-...oquence&qid=1559685184&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr2
https://www.amazon.de/J-S-Bach-Mess...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-8
https://www.amazon.de/Johann-Sebast...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-3
https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Matthaus...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-6
https://www.amazon.de/J-S-Bach-Chri...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-7
ETC.


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## Guest

I am a huge fan of the Suzuki recording.


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## Ras

flamencosketches said:


> Any love for Brüggen in this work? He's been recommended to me before. Other recommendations I recall are Klemperer, Herreweghe, and Koopman. I love Suzuki in the cantatas, but I am somehow dubious of his B minor Mass.


There are two recordings by Frans Bruggen - one from the 90s on Phillips and a newer one from Glossa. I have only heard them a few times. My first impression is that the earlier Philips recording is best. They both have that huge sound which is somewhat comparable to Jordi Savall's AliaVox recording.


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## flamencosketches

Ah, Savall... forgot he recorded this. I'm a huge fan of his Bach. That's one I need to check out. His Musical Offering is immaculate. 

I've heard Brüggen takes it all super fast. He really excels in Haydn and Mozart; I haven't heard any of his more Baroque recordings.


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## Brahmsianhorn

flamencosketches said:


> I'm still looking for the right one for me... Karl Richter's was a little too solemn and borderline sludgy, Gardiner's a little too detached and academic (if beautiful at times). I have yet to get through the whole thing because something or another would keep turning me off along the way.
> 
> Any love for Brüggen in this work? He's been recommended to me before. Other recommendations I recall are Klemperer, Herreweghe, and Koopman. I love Suzuki in the cantatas, but I am somehow dubious of his B minor Mass.
> 
> I'll happily continue living life not understanding this work, but at some point the fear of missing out will really get to my head. :lol:


This one:


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## Mandryka

Deleted because I thought you were talking about something else.


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## Mandryka

Deleted because I thought you were talking about something else.


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## gardibolt

Josquin13 said:


> Ha!!
> 
> Yes, the boys' singing on King's recording was mixed.
> 
> But in the answer to the poster's question, yes, the St. Thomas Boy's choir (or Thomanerchor) has made recordings of the Mass in B minor, Cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion,, & Christmas Oratorio, with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, under conductor Georg Christoph Biller, on the Accentus label, I believe, and of Motets on Philips (1997-08)--though I've not heard the recordings myself. There was also a St. Thomas choir, Leipzig box set released on Universal label's 'Eloquence' series, which I'd like to hear, if I could find it at a reasonable price, as its out of print.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/Thomanerchor-...oquence&qid=1559685184&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr2
> https://www.amazon.de/J-S-Bach-Mess...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-8
> https://www.amazon.de/Johann-Sebast...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-3
> https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Matthaus...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-6
> https://www.amazon.de/J-S-Bach-Chri...eorg+Christoph&qid=1559685722&s=dmusic&sr=1-7
> ETC.


Thanks for the tip. I have the Eloquence box and it's superb, and in fact it's what prompted me to ask the question about the B minor Mass using similar forces. I should have thought to look for their attempt on the Mass.


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## DavidA

Richter is a bit too heavyweight these days. Klemperer is hopelessly anachronistic.
Strangely, Karajan's 1950s is quite a contender and was regarded almost as HIP in its day.
Gardiner set the standard but I prefer Herreweghe's latest version. Some liberties but superb!


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## Woodduck

Brahmsianhorn said:


> This one:


God no! Tempi are erratic (turgid, frantic or uncertain), choruses flaccid and wooly, trumpets harsh, soloists a mixed bag. The Kyrie alone takes 25 minutes, Nan Merriman's vibrato sounds like sped-up playback, Gustav Neidlinger sounds like an evil Nibelung (Alberich was in fact his most celebrated role). Leopold Simoneau is always a joy to hear, but nobody listens to the B-minor for the tenor. There are expressive moments here; the Crucifixus can make an effect in a long-breathed, Furtwanglerian interpretation if you just want a bath in chromaticism, but is it Bach?

Altogether a period-piece, and not the right period.


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## flamencosketches

I'm looking at two very different recordings:



















... but despite the obvious differences in instrumentation, would I be altogether wrong to suggest that these two performances seem to be in somewhat of the same spirit? Ie. very serious, devotional readings, totally in a liturgical tradition rather than something more performative. I'm leaning toward the Richter, if only because I already have the Gardiner and think that it might be wise to have one HIP and one "old school" recording, but the Leonhardt almost seems like a middle ground because of how serious it is.

And then there are the likes of Koopman, Suzuki, maybe Herreweghe, and others to consider. Hmm...

Not interested in the Klemperer at the moment. Re: Brahmsianhorn, I'm a year late responding to you, but no, thank you, to the Scherchen. I have yet to hear a recording of his that I enjoyed, and this is no exception.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My top 5 B Minor Masses:

1. Klemperer (this is the recording that launched my obsession with comparing interpretations. To this day it’s one of my favorite recordings of anything).
2. Jochum (would recommend this for an old-fashioned version instead of Richter, who I’ve never really seen the love for)
3. Suzuki
4. Marriner (OOP but absolutely beautiful)
5. Gardiner

So much more I could write on this towering work. I just think it’s important to point out how ridiculously impractical it was for Bach. It was far, far too long and difficult to be performed in a liturgical setting - and besides, Bach was Lutheran, so it’s not like they were actively soliciting a Mass from him - so the work was an act of pure idealism like the Art of Fugue. My highly subjective interpretation of Bach’s intentions was that he aimed to bind the various divisive theological opinions of his time into an overarching ecumenical celebration of Christian belief. It was his theological testament to posterity, while the AoF was his purely musical testament that aimed to preserve what he believed was the highest and most noble style of composition.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC

I am certainly a fan of the Mass in B Minor. I personally prefer the St. Matthew's Passion over the Mass in B minor, but I prefer the Mass over the St. John's passion. I had the chance to see it live this past December at the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia by the Philadelphia Orchestra. I personally really like the Kyrie and the Gloria the most and the rest is more of a wash for me. I've come to warm up to the later movements more as I've become more familiar with it, but I think that there are some brilliant parts in the Kyrie and the Gloria. My favorite part is this section of the Gloria:






As a french horn player, it would be a dream of mine to be able to nail this part of the Mass as one piece of the repertoire I can play through all the time. This part always seems to get to my emotions every time I listen to it. Although I have read that Bach had written this part as a joke of sorts, this movement will always stand out as one of the great pinnacles of Baroque horn playing to me.


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## starthrower

I just got the Jochum on Philips and I'm enjoying it. The Mass in F was a pleasant surprise. I'd never heard it before. I would like to give a listen to Leonhardt, and Gardiner. And Netherlands Bach Society.


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## Itullian

deleted.............


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My top 5 B Minor Masses:
> 
> 1. Klemperer (this is the recording that launched my obsession with comparing interpretations. To this day it's one of my favorite recordings of anything).
> 2. Jochum (would recommend this for an old-fashioned version instead of Richter, who I've never really seen the love for)
> 3. Suzuki
> 4. Marriner (OOP but absolutely beautiful)
> 5. Gardiner
> 
> So much more I could write on this towering work. I just think it's important to point out how ridiculously impractical it was for Bach. It was far, far too long and difficult to be performed in a liturgical setting - and besides, Bach was Lutheran, so it's not like they were actively soliciting a Mass from him - so the work was an act of pure idealism like the Art of Fugue. My highly subjective interpretation of Bach's intentions was that he aimed to bind the various divisive theological opinions of his time into an overarching ecumenical celebration of Christian belief. It was his theological testament to posterity, while the AoF was his purely musical testament that aimed to preserve what he believed was the highest and most noble style of composition.


I bet the Marriner is great. Thanks for alerting me to its existence. Your enthusiasm has made me reconsider the Klemperer so it's back on the list. I really like what I've heard of the Richter though Jochum is also a contender.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> I bet the Marriner is great. Thanks for alerting me to its existence. Your enthusiasm has made me reconsider the Klemperer so it's back on the list. I really like what I've heard of the Richter though Jochum is also a contender.


There's nothing wrong with the Richter, his B Minor Mass is the only recording of his (conducting - I love his organ playing) that I've enjoyed quite a bit. I just think that his Bach recordings, including his passions and oratorios, tend to be overhyped when there are IMO much less rote, more flexible, and more exciting "old school" performances such as those by Jochum. But a lot of people like them and they tend to be highly recommended, so there's clearly something I'm missing. If you decide to hear the Klemperer, let me know what you think - it's certainly not for everyone, but if you generally like his conducting I think you will love it. I think it's probably the greatest thing he did.


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## flamencosketches

After spending about a half hour comparing Klemperer and Richter I decided to pull the trigger on Richter. It sounds amazing. Solemn and ethereal, but very cleanly executed, beautifully played and sung. Aside from the slower tempi it does not sound like an "old school" recording to me. Having gotten all that out of the way, there's no doubt that the Klemperer recording is in my future sometime down the line, but I think I've made the right choice for now.


----------



## SanAntone

Has anyone mentioned *Jordi Savall*'s recording?

View attachment 140442


As is usually the case with Savall, his recording of Bach's Mass is pristine and excellent.


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## Chilham

View attachment 140783


Herreweghe for me. Simply beautiful.


----------



## SanAntone

Andrew Parrott - Crucifixus






Joshua Rifkin - Kyrie






I like the OVPP versions, there are others but these were the first I heard.


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## starthrower

I got the Parrott 5 disc set for 5 bucks. A good contrast to the big band recordings I have.


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## flamencosketches

SanAntone said:


> Andrew Parrott - Crucifixus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua Rifkin - Kyrie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the OVPP versions, there are others but these were the first I heard.


The Parrott sounds great. What is the theory behind OVPP? I'm assuming there is some scholarship out there which intends to prove that this is the historically accurate way to play Bach?


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## starthrower

You'd have to read Joshua Rifkin's article on this, or Parrot's book The Essential Bach Choir. They are the major proponents of the OVPP approach.


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## SanAntone

starthrower said:


> You'd have to read Joshua Rifkin's article on this, or Parrot's book The Essential Bach Choir. They are the major proponents of the OVPP approach.


True, but they make a credible (at least to me) case. There are others, *Kuijken*, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment.


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## flamencosketches

Is the B minor Mass the longest mass ever written? If not, what is?

Really loving Richter/Munich. It's so beautifully and reverently played. Especially love the Kyrie, Credo & Agnus Dei in this recording. 

I definitely want to get one of the OVPP ones, probably Parrott. That way I'll have one in all the major styles (HIP, old-school and OVPP). But then again, Leonhardt also sounds amazing. We are really spoiled for choice with this work. If my obsession continues I expect I'll be collecting several more, anyway.


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## Enthusiast

Bach's Mass is sometimes held up as one of mankind's greatest achievements and I think it suffers from that by becoming an icon that stands for Western culture instead of living music or an aid to religious devotion. The Richter recording puts me in mind of their iconic nature of the work. Both of my favourite recordings - Bruggen's live one and Cohen's - stand out for their beautiful playing and singing and, because of this superb artistry, seem very much alive. Among older recordings, I do also like the Klemperer: the soloists are superb.


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## flamencosketches

Enthusiast said:


> Bach's Mass is sometimes held up as one of mankind's greatest achievements and I think it suffers from that by becoming an icon that stands for Western culture instead of living music or an aid to religious devotion. The Richter recording puts me in mind of their iconic nature of the work. Both of my favourite recordings - Bruggen's live one and Cohen's - stand out for their beautiful playing and singing and, because of this superb artistry, seem very much alive. Among older recordings, I do also like the Klemperer: the soloists are superb.


Agreed; I think this "summit of Western culture" business held me back from really clicking with the Mass. That being said, I find the Richter to be quite straightforwardly devotional in nature; monumental, yes, but it doesn't sound as if he is trying to conduct an icon to Western culture, but rather a sincere religious expression. Of course, liking it or not is a different question entirely.

I've heard great things about the Brüggen live, that's another one to check out.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’ve come across another new favorite: Thomas Hengelbrock on Harmonia Mundi. Wow, what a performance! I’ve seen it praised highly in some quarters but not nearly as often as it deserves to be IMO. This may be my new favorite HIP Mass. The choral sound is the largest, fullest, and most expressive I’ve ever heard on an HIP recording and there is true feeling throughout. Tempi are a good mix of lively, moderate, and reverent with a proper balance of explosive energy and pensive reflectiveness. The recording quality is crystal-clear. The soloists are not among the best on record, but they hold up just fine (except tenor Knut Schoch, but luckily he only appears in two movements). I think this is an easy first recommendation for anyone new to the work. Klemperer and Suzuki complete my trinity of favorite Mass recordings.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Agreed; I think this "summit of Western culture" business held me back from really clicking with the Mass. That being said, I find the Richter to be quite straightforwardly devotional in nature; monumental, yes, but it doesn't sound as if he is trying to conduct an icon to Western culture, but rather a sincere religious expression. Of course, liking it or not is a different question entirely.
> 
> I've heard great things about the Brüggen live, that's another one to check out.


Honestly, I don't think you'd have to "try" and conduct "an icon to Western Culture" - whatever that means anyway. I've never heard the Bach B Minor mass as anything less than a sincere religious expression because that's precisely what it is; else it wouldn't be an authentic performance. Some conductors can present leaden versions and these are ponderous and overly-reverential to the point of being comatose. The life is sapped out of these performances when this happens. Fortunately they are few and far between. I find this happened with Klemperer where the orchestra and choir are both just too big.






Having said all that, there are lots of people who really like these performances and good luck to them.


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